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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:00:09 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Seven spheres of the psyche
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I am writing this is Word 97 ... I sometimes write in the editor that comes
with Agent when I write in Psyber-L it is a different experience.  In Agent
the text I use is dark red, and the quoted text is green (I can customise
the colours).  The screen has a different feel ... this is sooo Microsoft
... I have changed the font I use in both to Verdana, which is nice though
proportional, which is a disadvantage in email.  I have just gone to dark
red here too ... better, feels more like Psyber-L!  I won't be able to get
the quoting working well here though.   In my email reader Psyber-L has a
prime spot.  At the top of the list of lists.  It has all the posts back to
1965 in the folder.  In the folder they all stack end to end, there is no
silence in Psyber-L in there!   I saw it in Outlook the other day ... there
I could put the posts on a time-line ... the silences were obvious.  Outlook
was part of the setup I had that crashed ... but I'd like it back some time.
I'd like to see the list of posts from that angle again.  Perhaps some
people always see it that way.

Different for us all.  Here on an amber monitor, or on an old CGA machine,
there on a 36 inch TV!   In a folder seldom opened and frequently deleted
somewhere else.  Silences would be shorter if you rarely checked the mail!
The flow of posts different for those who sort by thread rather than time.
Some must read it in Lucidia Handwriting, others in Times Roman or the
obligatory Courier New to get it formatted right.  Is there a fixed width
font that anyone prefers?  How does Psyber-L look on a Mac?  In DOS?

I like to look at the psyche this way.  I have tried chat and the words flow
over the top of anything I can connect with ... I get on edge.  I have not
yet found a web based discussion I have enjoyed.  Perhaps my access to the
web is too slow ... mostly though it is that it is not "inside" the email
program where the psyche "is".

There must be seven spheres of experience of the psyche in Psyber-L!  and
this is the first, words on a screen, posts in a folder.

The bannanabean sphere is the third!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:20:52 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Where does God want to go today?
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There is a climate in cyberspace, and cyberspace evolves.  There is a
different feel to the place.  What is possible for Psybernet in this
climate? At this stage of the evolution?  Is this the evolution of the
psyche as well?  I am sure that there are statistics on "what is happening"
in cyberspace, more users, more ads, more bandwidth ... how is the culture
evolving?  Does information wish to be less free?  I think so.  Is there a
louder scream  "CLICK on MY URL!"?  I think so.  The currency in cyberspace
is not money but traffic,  or not traffic but BRAND.  Harvard counts more
than the local high school, who might offer a very in-tune on-line course;
some real currency there.  Can we count where the interpersonal links ...
the interconnections of love are the thick? And where they are thin?  Or is
that invisible and irrelevant.  Where do the words, pictures and sounds come
closest to the dream of the net, to its unconscious striving?  Can I see
though my projection into what is happening or is it ALL a mirror?




Walter







__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:26:09 -0700
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
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Walter,

Your posts were received by me early this morning, early as I was
wakened at 5:30 am after a four hour sleep with the imperative need to
record a dream.  The title of this post fit with the sense of being
pulled by the dream into regions not of my choosing but God's choosing.

> There is a climate in cyberspace, and cyberspace evolves.

Yes, definitely a "climate" here.  For me that climate is not the "field
of dreams".  I have been stunned by the sense I have of this place.
Four "lists" have held my attention for the past six months, four lists
which I found to be "significant" for me: DNET, PSYBER-L, and two
un-named private lists which are the children of NETPSY.  The quietness
of all four lists at the same time is
unnerving.  These four lists have tried hard to speak with depth and
honesty with a promise that this cyberspace can join and offer
communion.  Other lists to which I subscribe remain active but they are
clearly regions that stay fully in the head without even pretending that
psyche even exists, even though they are for the most part psychological
discussion lists: PSYCHOSYNTHESIS, JUNG-PSY, JUNG-CIRCLE, SFT, MFTC,
ISMHO .......

> There is a different feel to the place.

I am reminded of the age of "flower children" (I was one of these toting
my guitar, writing poetry, awaiting the age of "love and peace", wearing
sandals) an age that was co-opted by the media and in the process driven
within, driven into a "silence".  Yes, this place is different.  It
feels different.

I wonder ... do I, do we follow the imperative call of cyberspaces
"evolution" (evolution for me does not evoke a sense of psyche ...
evolution brings to mind and heart a sense of abandonment of our soul
and gods and goddesses) with a promise of "the best is yet to come"?

I feel .... I need to speak carefully, deliberately ... hold to this
dimension in hopes that a small space can yet be held for the psyche's
purpose ... waiting patiently ... voices in the wilderness, wandering
... rehearsing with the task of developing "voice" ... knowing that at
some point a reason for holding will come out of the holding ...

Robert

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Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:55:35 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Dear All,

Theres a worrying trend here to ascribe to cyberspace more potential,more
spiritual, transendental, airy fairy stuff that it merits or deserves.
No magic happens here, no great revelations, no great soul searching
testimonials or mystic comings and goings than you would find if you sat
and wrote daily in your diary.
This is in fact a place of diaries, to put your thoughts, your anxes, bring
forth your skeltons from their cupboards, your hopes and desires but with
the one great difference being that here everybody gets to read it, it is
not a secret diary.
There is a little of the exhibitionist in all of us, and to an extent thats
reflected in the words we write. We write diaries to be viewed, commended,
sympathised with, we get tetchy when people ignore the pages, we get a
sense of wellbeing when they pat us on the back.
I post this and I post it into the ether, into the void. I don't know any
of you really, and this is absoloute honesty, I am not particularly touched
by the revelation that Walters getting married, its immaterial to me,
Steves death touched me briefly, because he was my champion and slightly
smitten, and I felt sad at a life wasted, not I am sure specifically Steves
life, but that a life and light had gone needlessly. None of the other
deaths here, have barely caused me a moments thought.
Is honesty a virtue or a thing to be despised?


I like some people here, others I consign to trash without a second glance.
In this world of diaries, I chose the pages I read, that you let me peep
into.
I come here and I learn because I read the diaries, in the same way I
learnt of courage by reading Anne Franks diary, or humour from pepys, or
any of the other autobiographys I read, and I pick my authors, mostly the
women btw, because I find the men in general somewhat insipid, melodramatic
and uninspiring. More syrup than vinegar, and sweet sticky dripping syrup
at that.

Wilbur at least had life and passion, and so what if he was childish at
times, and swatted back. Wilbur had courage, and he stood by his words. I
admire that, even if I didn't always agree with him, and I learnt to admire
the way Juliette did that to, I started reading her diary pages when they
came in.
I can't bear the general poncing and fannying about of the melodramatic
pontificators, soul searching in their kafthans for  a world that is never
going to be. I feel like slapping them and shouting, jesus, wake up. So
what, thats what I want and one womans meat is another ones poison. Doesn't
mean I am right. I reserve the right to chose, and I don't subscribe to the
general comfort levels that this list sometimes prefers, where nobody rocks
the boat. I enjoy rocking the boat, and I sometimes enjoy going overboard.
Drowning is not quite so pleasant, but I'm open to all experiences.

When void entered here some time ago, nobody really paid much heed to what
he was actually saying, presumably because he chose to voice it in entirely
the wrong way.

I've had my periods of oh woe is me..and I've put them in my diary, I've
had my periods of being in love, of being at war.
I relish the thought that I can chart my progress, my evoloution through
life by reading who I was a year ago, though I don't particularly relish
that the rest of the world can and see me as part of an experiment in
Walters testube World. (Read Rats/Mazes thread)
I am glad I am keeping this diary, but that is all this place is for me.
For 4 years now I have lived the mechanics of Psyberspace, I probably know
enough to write a book on the medium about the psychology of it. It is
interactive Television, and as such it is when you stand back and look at
it, completely useless other than as a means of amusing yourself. It has
some worth in a means of expression, a voice that is not available to the
outside world, your chance to act in a play of your choice.
But basically, its like Television in that when it comes down to it, its a
crock of shit, and like television All it has done is increase the
availability and means of communication on a global basis, as well as
providing Christians and perverts a broad platform from which to preach or
reach the masses.
Like Television..it is the idiots lantern and so few of us know where the
off button is. The off button that propels us back to reality and the
revelation that we can't actually amuse ourselves that well anymore.

I offer this challenge to anybody disagreeing with me. Can you stay off the
internet for 3 weeks? stay off the email, the web pages, the chat rooms?
Then come back and tell me this place is special, that it has form,
substance, deep meaning, or anything to teach us of any great importance.
This is a library full of diaries, it is not the means to a higher or more
spiritual plane. IT is not that special, it is smoke and mirrors, and till
you see past the smoke and mirrors to the crud beyond, you realise at the
end of the day, this technological wonder which was developed for war, is
just making somebody somewhere very rich. Probably Bill Gates.

6 months ago, I could not have kept of here, now I don't much care if my pc
spontaneously combusts. Theres nothing here I can't find in the real world,
nothing here that I can't voice in reality if I am brave enough. I don't
need this anymore. I can sit down in the spectators stalls now with my
remote control and hit the off switch. I can be smug about it too..why not,
revelation doesn't come cheap and I've paid some pretty heavy prices for my
time here. Knowledge is power and in this case Knowledge is what will
empower me to get off my ass and go do something worthwhile instead in a
world that is real and beautiful, because I am real and my soul is
beautiful, and I've kept it hidden in this place way too long, when it
should be out there shining, and making a difference in the real world,
even if only to my daughter. Time invested here, was time away from her.

One of the things my forrays into cyberspace has taught me is..that we are
more than we percieve ourselves to be, that cyberspace is in a limited way,
a way to touch our inner being, because of the nature by which we must
express ourselves. The theraputic aspects of a diary - plus. I pushed
myself into this 15" box and in a way I come out of it with a little more
awareness of who it was I pushed in, and as I pull myself out, there is a
little more of me emerging from the sub reality, into the real world and
maybe that little bit more, was always the better part, even though it was
the greater hidden.

Course I don't know diddly, and what I do know is purely subjective. I do
know, I was deluded here, seduced by the cyberdream and while ultimatly it
was part of my awakening, it was also part of my sleeping.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:30:43 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Dolores,

>  No magic happens here, no great revelations, no great soul searching
>  testimonials or mystic comings and goings than you would find if you sat
>  and wrote daily in your diary.

One of the seven spheres!  You are right there in it, wonderfully well!
Certainly a different level from me going on about the screen and the
listowning.  No Indra Goddess of the net here.  Just folk writing diaries.  Or
chatting, much like over the back fence, only not as real.  Some people might
really get a buzz from it, but no more than from other interactions, no more
than in their hard covered diaries.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:39:32 +0000
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Cyberspace is many things.

That's what I get from what you wrote, Dolores.

***

"completely useless"

"cyberspace has taught me is..that we are more than we percieve ourselves
to be"

***

"increase the availability and means of communication on a global basis"

The internet is a collection of computers networked together. People use
those computers to publish-push and receive-pull information. Cyberspace
is: people using the network to "globally communicate" if they wish, or on
the other end of the spectrum...?

spectrum then, as well as exactly this, exactly that!

***

Maybe cyberspace is a mirror. It, a collection of networks and users, may
be *personified*. For example, personified as "unreal", personified as
"shadow", or personified as "god", or given the cast of dionysus...

orgiastic, drunk, never satiated.

Cyberspace might seem to one person fatherly, to another motherly, to
another a space full of bastard primitive children. Other places serious
logical discussions take place while at 'other cyberplaces' virgin men and
women dance interdependently, divinely.

Cyberspace is lonely spider; as well as the horny dog; or the quiet, drowsy
snake. It might be given over to the image of the owl; ants in the ant
colony; fish in their schools.

***

I prefer to focus on the aspects of cyberspace which were not possible
before cyber spaced: examples: http://www.corewave.com/core/ ,
http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~senators/ ,

Psyber-L...(examples high-minded, but I don't feel unrealistically so).

(Of course, who you intentionally hang around with counts for a lot! Here
and in the 'non-virtual' worlds.)

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:43:47 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Exactly what are the 7 spheres, and where's the archive gone???

Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:46:30 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Cyberspace is lonely spider; as well as the horny dog; or the quiet, drowsy
snake. It might be given over to the image of the owl; ants in the ant
colony; fish in their schools.

Beautiful, accurate and inspiring.

Dolores

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Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:29:57 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Hoon, All

> Cyberspace is lonely spider; as well as the horny dog; or the quiet, drowsy
> snake. It might be given over to the image of the owl; ants in the ant
> colony; fish in their schools.

Yes.  I am pleased with my challenge to get it down to seven
spheres.  Seven is obviously the right number, because of the
alliteration with spheres!  Each sphere will have its animal, its
colour and god(ess), certainly its *element* we have seen all of
them here ... Dolores Dog Bowl being a memorable moment of earth!
I recall Wilbur describing how he delved into the innards of the
X86 computer designs and in there could pick up on the
personality of the designer.  The sphere of Daedalos? which
extends right into working with a web page and its (non)
influence our relationships.

This list I think is by its descriptions in one sphere and by its
practice pushing to be in another ...

I want to create the other! It wants to be created.

BTW HooN,

I saw your post in the Jung-psy list re self reflective cooking
on that list.  I doubt it can happen there, what do you think?  I
think it is a wonderful list.  I like the way it is moderated.
But it is not pushing at the seams to be in another sphere  ...
it is a list happy to be what it is!

Robert, you have a different response to it?

Hmmm, feels strange discussion other lists, but it is ok i think.


Walter

___________________________________________________________
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Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:31:53 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Dolores

> Beautiful, accurate and inspiring.

I thought so too.  You put it well!


Walter
___________________________________________________________
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Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:04:43 +0000
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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A bit of synchronicity courtesy of the Jung-Psy list and Alice O. Howell,


Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:46:32 EST
From:    IonaDove <IonaDove@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: JUNG-PSY Digest - 30 Mar 1998 to 31 Mar 1998

[snip]

For def. of reality, I always liked:

"Reality is what's really going on while you think it's something else."

Cheers!

AOH:}

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Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:00:54 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Hello Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>, on Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:55:35 +0100, you
wrote:

>6 months ago, I could not have kept of here, now I don't much care if my pc
>spontaneously combusts. Theres nothing here I can't find in the real world,
>nothing here that I can't voice in reality if I am brave enough.

I'm reminded of the statement I made and Wilbur expressed some support for
-- cyberspace isn't "like" something else, it is itself.  It doesn't
imitate life, it's part of life.

Psyber-L is a part of the real world.  Like the telephone, or letters or
yes diaries.  I don't think great revelations occur in the spaces between
people, but within the individual person.  It doesn't matter how the
pictures or words that trigger that change come to the changing person.
Nor does it much matter how that person's experience of the change came
about is expressed -- in person, email, diary, art, music, whatever.  It
eventually reaches one (or not) through its chosen medium, and that is
perfectly normal, whether in "cyberspace" or anywhere else.

Your experience of this as an awakening that was also a sleeping happens to
different people here or anywhere else, for exactly the same reasons.
Nothing special about this place, really, just what we bring to it, and
whether we're suited to this particular part of reality as a means of
expression or not.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 04:13:09 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
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Robert

> Your posts were received by me early this morning, early as I was
> wakened at 5:30 am after a four hour sleep with the imperative need to
> record a dream.  The title of this post fit with the sense of being
> pulled by the dream into regions not of my choosing but God's choosing.

This is one sense of the transcendent ... you influence others
and your life ... but the Other is a "higher power" ... as
secular as i feel, I can't help but think like this.  It is also
why books like "You can Heal Your Life" are a sort of affront to
this respect for what it is that calls us.

> I wonder ... do I, do we follow the imperative call of cyberspaces
> "evolution" (evolution for me does not evoke a sense of psyche ...
> evolution brings to mind and heart a sense of abandonment of our soul
> and gods and goddesses) with a promise of "the best is yet to come"?

I am happy to equate the pull from cyberspace with the pull from
the gods and goddesses with the evolutionary processes.  As
child my father would tell me how ... Once upon a time ... there
were no people, no animals but just little pools of slime and
then ... one day ... in the slime some chemicals got mixed up and
they started to make replications of the combination ... and so
on ... probably ending with something like ... and if it were not
for that little pool of slime you would not be here today!  The
evolutionary process for me leaves me in awe and wonder at the
marvels of the universe.

It is with that eye and ear that I can read such things as
OMNIZONE and look forward to seeing the cyber-sculpture once it
is made.  I have put a link up on the PsyberGate ...

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm

That article and the proposed VRML thing will capture something
of cyberspace ... but as you say it might leave out something too
...

Back to the sense of the spheres of psyberspace ... I can imagine
the Omnizone ... probably a better version of it than they can
make ... and look at it with awe ... like looking at the view
from the top of a mountain at the plains to the see ... and
seeing something spiritual in that.

I think there is some synchronicity with the ideas we have been
talking about here ... cyberspace being many things and the
Omnizone article.



Walter



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Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:26:09 -0700
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Walter,

Your posts were received by me early this morning, early as I was
wakened at 5:30 am after a four hour sleep with the imperative need to
record a dream.  The title of this post fit with the sense of being
pulled by the dream into regions not of my choosing but God's choosing.

> There is a climate in cyberspace, and cyberspace evolves.

Yes, definitely a "climate" here.  For me that climate is not the "field
of dreams".  I have been stunned by the sense I have of this place.
Four "lists" have held my attention for the past six months, four lists
which I found to be "significant" for me: DNET, PSYBER-L, and two
un-named private lists which are the children of NETPSY.  The quietness
of all four lists at the same time is
unnerving.  These four lists have tried hard to speak with depth and
honesty with a promise that this cyberspace can join and offer
communion.  Other lists to which I subscribe remain active but they are
clearly regions that stay fully in the head without even pretending that
psyche even exists, even though they are for the most part psychological
discussion lists: PSYCHOSYNTHESIS, JUNG-PSY, JUNG-CIRCLE, SFT, MFTC,
ISMHO .......

> There is a different feel to the place.

I am reminded of the age of "flower children" (I was one of these toting
my guitar, writing poetry, awaiting the age of "love and peace", wearing
sandals) an age that was co-opted by the media and in the process driven
within, driven into a "silence".  Yes, this place is different.  It
feels different.

I wonder ... do I, do we follow the imperative call of cyberspaces
"evolution" (evolution for me does not evoke a sense of psyche ...
evolution brings to mind and heart a sense of abandonment of our soul
and gods and goddesses) with a promise of "the best is yet to come"?

I feel .... I need to speak carefully, deliberately ... hold to this
dimension in hopes that a small space can yet be held for the psyche's
purpose ... waiting patiently ... voices in the wilderness, wandering
... rehearsing with the task of developing "voice" ... knowing that at
some point a reason for holding will come out of the holding ...

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:00:09 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Seven spheres of the psyche
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I am writing this is Word 97 ... I sometimes write in the editor that comes
with Agent when I write in Psyber-L it is a different experience.  In Agent
the text I use is dark red, and the quoted text is green (I can customise
the colours).  The screen has a different feel ... this is sooo Microsoft
... I have changed the font I use in both to Verdana, which is nice though
proportional, which is a disadvantage in email.  I have just gone to dark
red here too ... better, feels more like Psyber-L!  I won't be able to get
the quoting working well here though.   In my email reader Psyber-L has a
prime spot.  At the top of the list of lists.  It has all the posts back to
1965 in the folder.  In the folder they all stack end to end, there is no
silence in Psyber-L in there!   I saw it in Outlook the other day ... there
I could put the posts on a time-line ... the silences were obvious.  Outlook
was part of the setup I had that crashed ... but I'd like it back some time.
I'd like to see the list of posts from that angle again.  Perhaps some
people always see it that way.

Different for us all.  Here on an amber monitor, or on an old CGA machine,
there on a 36 inch TV!   In a folder seldom opened and frequently deleted
somewhere else.  Silences would be shorter if you rarely checked the mail!
The flow of posts different for those who sort by thread rather than time.
Some must read it in Lucidia Handwriting, others in Times Roman or the
obligatory Courier New to get it formatted right.  Is there a fixed width
font that anyone prefers?  How does Psyber-L look on a Mac?  In DOS?

I like to look at the psyche this way.  I have tried chat and the words flow
over the top of anything I can connect with ... I get on edge.  I have not
yet found a web based discussion I have enjoyed.  Perhaps my access to the
web is too slow ... mostly though it is that it is not "inside" the email
program where the psyche "is".

There must be seven spheres of experience of the psyche in Psyber-L!  and
this is the first, words on a screen, posts in a folder.

The bannanabean sphere is the third!


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:20:52 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Where does God want to go today?
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There is a climate in cyberspace, and cyberspace evolves.  There is a
different feel to the place.  What is possible for Psybernet in this
climate? At this stage of the evolution?  Is this the evolution of the
psyche as well?  I am sure that there are statistics on "what is happening"
in cyberspace, more users, more ads, more bandwidth ... how is the culture
evolving?  Does information wish to be less free?  I think so.  Is there a
louder scream  "CLICK on MY URL!"?  I think so.  The currency in cyberspace
is not money but traffic,  or not traffic but BRAND.  Harvard counts more
than the local high school, who might offer a very in-tune on-line course;
some real currency there.  Can we count where the interpersonal links ...
the interconnections of love are the thick? And where they are thin?  Or is
that invisible and irrelevant.  Where do the words, pictures and sounds come
closest to the dream of the net, to its unconscious striving?  Can I see
though my projection into what is happening or is it ALL a mirror?




Walter







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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 04:35:33 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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JoAnne,

> I'm reminded of the statement I made and Wilbur expressed some support for
> -- cyberspace isn't "like" something else, it is itself.  It doesn't
> imitate life, it's part of life.
>
> Psyber-L is a part of the real world.  Like the telephone, or letters or
> yes diaries.  I don't think great revelations occur in the spaces between
> people, but within the individual person.  It doesn't matter how the
> pictures or words that trigger that change come to the changing person.
> Nor does it much matter how that person's experience of the change came
> about is expressed -- in person, email, diary, art, music, whatever.  It
> eventually reaches one (or not) through its chosen medium, and that is
> perfectly normal, whether in "cyberspace" or anywhere else.

I enjoy your reflections on this.

Could this be one sphere and could there well be others?

For example that the telephone and the whole of the written word
and perhaps even oral traditions passing poems down from
generation to generation created a ... a pool of knowledge ... a
body of knowledge ... a datasphere ... a noosphere ... a
cyberspace ... which while part of the world has a different
reality ... a world of literature ... a world of ideas ...
virtual reality, now that it has fully come into its own.

That this has a living quality, that it is present in different
forms whenever we are present ... gives it the quality of a god,
unknowable and mysterious and yet we can sense it here ... the
people who read this ... all at different times yet all entering
into a shared moment ... all having a different experience ...
yet all having something in common.  No different from entering
into a cave and seeing the paintings on the wall and sharing
something with the artist ... yet very different because we use
*this* medium.

I simply cannot do this with *only* a telephone.  I cant have
this experience of these thoughts going to the people i imagine
them going to ... as well as those who i cant imagine!

There is no difference at one level and the world of difference
at another.  The difference is one of perspective i think.

I have reflected on things like this for a long time .. before
there was psyberspace in my work as a psychotherapist and
psychodramatist.  Is there any difference in meeting with a
therapist to meeting with friend?  To writing in a diary?  There
sure is.  It comes from the particular use of media, just as we
use a particular medium here.  One hour, regularly, in one place,
for a fee, for a particular purpose; that creates a whole new
reality ... it allows all sorts of stuff to surface ... it also
is what it is and nothing like anything else in the real world.


The point is that i think the media we use makes a difference.
Mcluhan was quite brilliant to say that the medium is the
message. That idea is exaggerated but it blows me away how he
could say that when TV was in its infancy.

> Your experience of this as an awakening that was also a sleeping happens to
> different people here or anywhere else, for exactly the same reasons.
> Nothing special about this place, really, just what we bring to it, and
> whether we're suited to this particular part of reality as a means of
> expression or not.


Perhaps not special ... unique?




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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:43:47 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Exactly what are the 7 spheres, and where's the archive gone???

Dolores.

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Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:46:30 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Cyberspace is lonely spider; as well as the horny dog; or the quiet, drowsy
snake. It might be given over to the image of the owl; ants in the ant
colony; fish in their schools.

Beautiful, accurate and inspiring.

Dolores

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:39:32 +0000
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Cyberspace is many things.

That's what I get from what you wrote, Dolores.

***

"completely useless"

"cyberspace has taught me is..that we are more than we percieve ourselves
to be"

***

"increase the availability and means of communication on a global basis"

The internet is a collection of computers networked together. People use
those computers to publish-push and receive-pull information. Cyberspace
is: people using the network to "globally communicate" if they wish, or on
the other end of the spectrum...?

spectrum then, as well as exactly this, exactly that!

***

Maybe cyberspace is a mirror. It, a collection of networks and users, may
be *personified*. For example, personified as "unreal", personified as
"shadow", or personified as "god", or given the cast of dionysus...

orgiastic, drunk, never satiated.

Cyberspace might seem to one person fatherly, to another motherly, to
another a space full of bastard primitive children. Other places serious
logical discussions take place while at 'other cyberplaces' virgin men and
women dance interdependently, divinely.

Cyberspace is lonely spider; as well as the horny dog; or the quiet, drowsy
snake. It might be given over to the image of the owl; ants in the ant
colony; fish in their schools.

***

I prefer to focus on the aspects of cyberspace which were not possible
before cyber spaced: examples: http://www.corewave.com/core/ ,
http://wwwusers.imaginet.fr/~senators/ ,

Psyber-L...(examples high-minded, but I don't feel unrealistically so).

(Of course, who you intentionally hang around with counts for a lot! Here
and in the 'non-virtual' worlds.)

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:30:43 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Dolores,

>  No magic happens here, no great revelations, no great soul searching
>  testimonials or mystic comings and goings than you would find if you sat
>  and wrote daily in your diary.

One of the seven spheres!  You are right there in it, wonderfully well!
Certainly a different level from me going on about the screen and the
listowning.  No Indra Goddess of the net here.  Just folk writing diaries.  Or
chatting, much like over the back fence, only not as real.  Some people might
really get a buzz from it, but no more than from other interactions, no more
than in their hard covered diaries.


Walter

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Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:55:35 +0100
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Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Dear All,

Theres a worrying trend here to ascribe to cyberspace more potential,more
spiritual, transendental, airy fairy stuff that it merits or deserves.
No magic happens here, no great revelations, no great soul searching
testimonials or mystic comings and goings than you would find if you sat
and wrote daily in your diary.
This is in fact a place of diaries, to put your thoughts, your anxes, bring
forth your skeltons from their cupboards, your hopes and desires but with
the one great difference being that here everybody gets to read it, it is
not a secret diary.
There is a little of the exhibitionist in all of us, and to an extent thats
reflected in the words we write. We write diaries to be viewed, commended,
sympathised with, we get tetchy when people ignore the pages, we get a
sense of wellbeing when they pat us on the back.
I post this and I post it into the ether, into the void. I don't know any
of you really, and this is absoloute honesty, I am not particularly touched
by the revelation that Walters getting married, its immaterial to me,
Steves death touched me briefly, because he was my champion and slightly
smitten, and I felt sad at a life wasted, not I am sure specifically Steves
life, but that a life and light had gone needlessly. None of the other
deaths here, have barely caused me a moments thought.
Is honesty a virtue or a thing to be despised?


I like some people here, others I consign to trash without a second glance.
In this world of diaries, I chose the pages I read, that you let me peep
into.
I come here and I learn because I read the diaries, in the same way I
learnt of courage by reading Anne Franks diary, or humour from pepys, or
any of the other autobiographys I read, and I pick my authors, mostly the
women btw, because I find the men in general somewhat insipid, melodramatic
and uninspiring. More syrup than vinegar, and sweet sticky dripping syrup
at that.

Wilbur at least had life and passion, and so what if he was childish at
times, and swatted back. Wilbur had courage, and he stood by his words. I
admire that, even if I didn't always agree with him, and I learnt to admire
the way Juliette did that to, I started reading her diary pages when they
came in.
I can't bear the general poncing and fannying about of the melodramatic
pontificators, soul searching in their kafthans for  a world that is never
going to be. I feel like slapping them and shouting, jesus, wake up. So
what, thats what I want and one womans meat is another ones poison. Doesn't
mean I am right. I reserve the right to chose, and I don't subscribe to the
general comfort levels that this list sometimes prefers, where nobody rocks
the boat. I enjoy rocking the boat, and I sometimes enjoy going overboard.
Drowning is not quite so pleasant, but I'm open to all experiences.

When void entered here some time ago, nobody really paid much heed to what
he was actually saying, presumably because he chose to voice it in entirely
the wrong way.

I've had my periods of oh woe is me..and I've put them in my diary, I've
had my periods of being in love, of being at war.
I relish the thought that I can chart my progress, my evoloution through
life by reading who I was a year ago, though I don't particularly relish
that the rest of the world can and see me as part of an experiment in
Walters testube World. (Read Rats/Mazes thread)
I am glad I am keeping this diary, but that is all this place is for me.
For 4 years now I have lived the mechanics of Psyberspace, I probably know
enough to write a book on the medium about the psychology of it. It is
interactive Television, and as such it is when you stand back and look at
it, completely useless other than as a means of amusing yourself. It has
some worth in a means of expression, a voice that is not available to the
outside world, your chance to act in a play of your choice.
But basically, its like Television in that when it comes down to it, its a
crock of shit, and like television All it has done is increase the
availability and means of communication on a global basis, as well as
providing Christians and perverts a broad platform from which to preach or
reach the masses.
Like Television..it is the idiots lantern and so few of us know where the
off button is. The off button that propels us back to reality and the
revelation that we can't actually amuse ourselves that well anymore.

I offer this challenge to anybody disagreeing with me. Can you stay off the
internet for 3 weeks? stay off the email, the web pages, the chat rooms?
Then come back and tell me this place is special, that it has form,
substance, deep meaning, or anything to teach us of any great importance.
This is a library full of diaries, it is not the means to a higher or more
spiritual plane. IT is not that special, it is smoke and mirrors, and till
you see past the smoke and mirrors to the crud beyond, you realise at the
end of the day, this technological wonder which was developed for war, is
just making somebody somewhere very rich. Probably Bill Gates.

6 months ago, I could not have kept of here, now I don't much care if my pc
spontaneously combusts. Theres nothing here I can't find in the real world,
nothing here that I can't voice in reality if I am brave enough. I don't
need this anymore. I can sit down in the spectators stalls now with my
remote control and hit the off switch. I can be smug about it too..why not,
revelation doesn't come cheap and I've paid some pretty heavy prices for my
time here. Knowledge is power and in this case Knowledge is what will
empower me to get off my ass and go do something worthwhile instead in a
world that is real and beautiful, because I am real and my soul is
beautiful, and I've kept it hidden in this place way too long, when it
should be out there shining, and making a difference in the real world,
even if only to my daughter. Time invested here, was time away from her.

One of the things my forrays into cyberspace has taught me is..that we are
more than we percieve ourselves to be, that cyberspace is in a limited way,
a way to touch our inner being, because of the nature by which we must
express ourselves. The theraputic aspects of a diary - plus. I pushed
myself into this 15" box and in a way I come out of it with a little more
awareness of who it was I pushed in, and as I pull myself out, there is a
little more of me emerging from the sub reality, into the real world and
maybe that little bit more, was always the better part, even though it was
the greater hidden.

Course I don't know diddly, and what I do know is purely subjective. I do
know, I was deluded here, seduced by the cyberdream and while ultimatly it
was part of my awakening, it was also part of my sleeping.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:31:53 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Dolores

> Beautiful, accurate and inspiring.

I thought so too.  You put it well!


Walter
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:04:43 +0000
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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A bit of synchronicity courtesy of the Jung-Psy list and Alice O. Howell,


Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:46:32 EST
From:    IonaDove <IonaDove@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: JUNG-PSY Digest - 30 Mar 1998 to 31 Mar 1998

[snip]

For def. of reality, I always liked:

"Reality is what's really going on while you think it's something else."

Cheers!

AOH:}

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:29:57 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Hoon, All

> Cyberspace is lonely spider; as well as the horny dog; or the quiet, drowsy
> snake. It might be given over to the image of the owl; ants in the ant
> colony; fish in their schools.

Yes.  I am pleased with my challenge to get it down to seven
spheres.  Seven is obviously the right number, because of the
alliteration with spheres!  Each sphere will have its animal, its
colour and god(ess), certainly its *element* we have seen all of
them here ... Dolores Dog Bowl being a memorable moment of earth!
I recall Wilbur describing how he delved into the innards of the
X86 computer designs and in there could pick up on the
personality of the designer.  The sphere of Daedalos? which
extends right into working with a web page and its (non)
influence our relationships.

This list I think is by its descriptions in one sphere and by its
practice pushing to be in another ...

I want to create the other! It wants to be created.

BTW HooN,

I saw your post in the Jung-psy list re self reflective cooking
on that list.  I doubt it can happen there, what do you think?  I
think it is a wonderful list.  I like the way it is moderated.
But it is not pushing at the seams to be in another sphere  ...
it is a list happy to be what it is!

Robert, you have a different response to it?

Hmmm, feels strange discussion other lists, but it is ok i think.


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 04:48:48 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Dolores

> Exactly what are the 7 spheres

ermmm...

I think we should make them up!  I mean it.  I have a sense of
about three or four .. they are vague ... but if we define those
then we might be able to experience them more fully!  And that
might lead us into sphere 4, 5, 6 ... where we will really be
into something ...

What got me thinking about this was a lecture i went to on the
unconscious the other day.  How Freud did us a service to name it
but also restricted it with such a name ... and then making the
little boxes of id, ego, and superego really did the reality no
good at all.  Well, perhaps more good than not naming it at all
... can we have some sense of it without names?

I like the idea of seven, because it will force us to think more
clearly ... there are 14 lines in a sonnet, 7 chakras in the
"body" ... 8 notes in an octave ... How many spheres does it take
to make heavenly music?  There must be some knowledge of the
music of the spheres we can tap into?

If only someone could make a VRML model of Psyberspace ... I
think it would look quite different to the OMNIZONE model ... to
many zones in that one!  Too democratic!

Walter

PS the archives were there last time i looked ... will check.



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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 04:13:09 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
In-Reply-To:  <3523A001.625E@cybersurf.net>
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Robert

> Your posts were received by me early this morning, early as I was
> wakened at 5:30 am after a four hour sleep with the imperative need to
> record a dream.  The title of this post fit with the sense of being
> pulled by the dream into regions not of my choosing but God's choosing.

This is one sense of the transcendent ... you influence others
and your life ... but the Other is a "higher power" ... as
secular as i feel, I can't help but think like this.  It is also
why books like "You can Heal Your Life" are a sort of affront to
this respect for what it is that calls us.

> I wonder ... do I, do we follow the imperative call of cyberspaces
> "evolution" (evolution for me does not evoke a sense of psyche ...
> evolution brings to mind and heart a sense of abandonment of our soul
> and gods and goddesses) with a promise of "the best is yet to come"?

I am happy to equate the pull from cyberspace with the pull from
the gods and goddesses with the evolutionary processes.  As
child my father would tell me how ... Once upon a time ... there
were no people, no animals but just little pools of slime and
then ... one day ... in the slime some chemicals got mixed up and
they started to make replications of the combination ... and so
on ... probably ending with something like ... and if it were not
for that little pool of slime you would not be here today!  The
evolutionary process for me leaves me in awe and wonder at the
marvels of the universe.

It is with that eye and ear that I can read such things as
OMNIZONE and look forward to seeing the cyber-sculpture once it
is made.  I have put a link up on the PsyberGate ...

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm

That article and the proposed VRML thing will capture something
of cyberspace ... but as you say it might leave out something too
...

Back to the sense of the spheres of psyberspace ... I can imagine
the Omnizone ... probably a better version of it than they can
make ... and look at it with awe ... like looking at the view
from the top of a mountain at the plains to the see ... and
seeing something spiritual in that.

I think there is some synchronicity with the ideas we have been
talking about here ... cyberspace being many things and the
Omnizone article.



Walter



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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:00:54 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980402165535.007aa100@easynet.co.uk>
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Hello Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>, on Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:55:35 +0100, you
wrote:

>6 months ago, I could not have kept of here, now I don't much care if my pc
>spontaneously combusts. Theres nothing here I can't find in the real world,
>nothing here that I can't voice in reality if I am brave enough.

I'm reminded of the statement I made and Wilbur expressed some support for
-- cyberspace isn't "like" something else, it is itself.  It doesn't
imitate life, it's part of life.

Psyber-L is a part of the real world.  Like the telephone, or letters or
yes diaries.  I don't think great revelations occur in the spaces between
people, but within the individual person.  It doesn't matter how the
pictures or words that trigger that change come to the changing person.
Nor does it much matter how that person's experience of the change came
about is expressed -- in person, email, diary, art, music, whatever.  It
eventually reaches one (or not) through its chosen medium, and that is
perfectly normal, whether in "cyberspace" or anywhere else.

Your experience of this as an awakening that was also a sleeping happens to
different people here or anywhere else, for exactly the same reasons.
Nothing special about this place, really, just what we bring to it, and
whether we're suited to this particular part of reality as a means of
expression or not.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 04:48:48 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980403034347.0079c750@easynet.co.uk>
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Dolores

> Exactly what are the 7 spheres

ermmm...

I think we should make them up!  I mean it.  I have a sense of
about three or four .. they are vague ... but if we define those
then we might be able to experience them more fully!  And that
might lead us into sphere 4, 5, 6 ... where we will really be
into something ...

What got me thinking about this was a lecture i went to on the
unconscious the other day.  How Freud did us a service to name it
but also restricted it with such a name ... and then making the
little boxes of id, ego, and superego really did the reality no
good at all.  Well, perhaps more good than not naming it at all
... can we have some sense of it without names?

I like the idea of seven, because it will force us to think more
clearly ... there are 14 lines in a sonnet, 7 chakras in the
"body" ... 8 notes in an octave ... How many spheres does it take
to make heavenly music?  There must be some knowledge of the
music of the spheres we can tap into?

If only someone could make a VRML model of Psyberspace ... I
think it would look quite different to the OMNIZONE model ... to
many zones in that one!  Too democratic!

Walter

PS the archives were there last time i looked ... will check.



___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 00:04:43 +0000
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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A bit of synchronicity courtesy of the Jung-Psy list and Alice O. Howell,


Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:46:32 EST
From:    IonaDove <IonaDove@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: JUNG-PSY Digest - 30 Mar 1998 to 31 Mar 1998

[snip]

For def. of reality, I always liked:

"Reality is what's really going on while you think it's something else."

Cheers!

AOH:}

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:26:09 -0700
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
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Walter,

Your posts were received by me early this morning, early as I was
wakened at 5:30 am after a four hour sleep with the imperative need to
record a dream.  The title of this post fit with the sense of being
pulled by the dream into regions not of my choosing but God's choosing.

> There is a climate in cyberspace, and cyberspace evolves.

Yes, definitely a "climate" here.  For me that climate is not the "field
of dreams".  I have been stunned by the sense I have of this place.
Four "lists" have held my attention for the past six months, four lists
which I found to be "significant" for me: DNET, PSYBER-L, and two
un-named private lists which are the children of NETPSY.  The quietness
of all four lists at the same time is
unnerving.  These four lists have tried hard to speak with depth and
honesty with a promise that this cyberspace can join and offer
communion.  Other lists to which I subscribe remain active but they are
clearly regions that stay fully in the head without even pretending that
psyche even exists, even though they are for the most part psychological
discussion lists: PSYCHOSYNTHESIS, JUNG-PSY, JUNG-CIRCLE, SFT, MFTC,
ISMHO .......

> There is a different feel to the place.

I am reminded of the age of "flower children" (I was one of these toting
my guitar, writing poetry, awaiting the age of "love and peace", wearing
sandals) an age that was co-opted by the media and in the process driven
within, driven into a "silence".  Yes, this place is different.  It
feels different.

I wonder ... do I, do we follow the imperative call of cyberspaces
"evolution" (evolution for me does not evoke a sense of psyche ...
evolution brings to mind and heart a sense of abandonment of our soul
and gods and goddesses) with a promise of "the best is yet to come"?

I feel .... I need to speak carefully, deliberately ... hold to this
dimension in hopes that a small space can yet be held for the psyche's
purpose ... waiting patiently ... voices in the wilderness, wandering
... rehearsing with the task of developing "voice" ... knowing that at
some point a reason for holding will come out of the holding ...

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 04:35:33 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
In-Reply-To:  <35270f21.2124541@mail.clark.net>
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JoAnne,

> I'm reminded of the statement I made and Wilbur expressed some support for
> -- cyberspace isn't "like" something else, it is itself.  It doesn't
> imitate life, it's part of life.
>
> Psyber-L is a part of the real world.  Like the telephone, or letters or
> yes diaries.  I don't think great revelations occur in the spaces between
> people, but within the individual person.  It doesn't matter how the
> pictures or words that trigger that change come to the changing person.
> Nor does it much matter how that person's experience of the change came
> about is expressed -- in person, email, diary, art, music, whatever.  It
> eventually reaches one (or not) through its chosen medium, and that is
> perfectly normal, whether in "cyberspace" or anywhere else.

I enjoy your reflections on this.

Could this be one sphere and could there well be others?

For example that the telephone and the whole of the written word
and perhaps even oral traditions passing poems down from
generation to generation created a ... a pool of knowledge ... a
body of knowledge ... a datasphere ... a noosphere ... a
cyberspace ... which while part of the world has a different
reality ... a world of literature ... a world of ideas ...
virtual reality, now that it has fully come into its own.

That this has a living quality, that it is present in different
forms whenever we are present ... gives it the quality of a god,
unknowable and mysterious and yet we can sense it here ... the
people who read this ... all at different times yet all entering
into a shared moment ... all having a different experience ...
yet all having something in common.  No different from entering
into a cave and seeing the paintings on the wall and sharing
something with the artist ... yet very different because we use
*this* medium.

I simply cannot do this with *only* a telephone.  I cant have
this experience of these thoughts going to the people i imagine
them going to ... as well as those who i cant imagine!

There is no difference at one level and the world of difference
at another.  The difference is one of perspective i think.

I have reflected on things like this for a long time .. before
there was psyberspace in my work as a psychotherapist and
psychodramatist.  Is there any difference in meeting with a
therapist to meeting with friend?  To writing in a diary?  There
sure is.  It comes from the particular use of media, just as we
use a particular medium here.  One hour, regularly, in one place,
for a fee, for a particular purpose; that creates a whole new
reality ... it allows all sorts of stuff to surface ... it also
is what it is and nothing like anything else in the real world.


The point is that i think the media we use makes a difference.
Mcluhan was quite brilliant to say that the medium is the
message. That idea is exaggerated but it blows me away how he
could say that when TV was in its infancy.

> Your experience of this as an awakening that was also a sleeping happens to
> different people here or anywhere else, for exactly the same reasons.
> Nothing special about this place, really, just what we bring to it, and
> whether we're suited to this particular part of reality as a means of
> expression or not.


Perhaps not special ... unique?




___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:00:54 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Diaries in Cyberspace.
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980402165535.007aa100@easynet.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>, on Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:55:35 +0100, you
wrote:

>6 months ago, I could not have kept of here, now I don't much care if my pc
>spontaneously combusts. Theres nothing here I can't find in the real world,
>nothing here that I can't voice in reality if I am brave enough.

I'm reminded of the statement I made and Wilbur expressed some support for
-- cyberspace isn't "like" something else, it is itself.  It doesn't
imitate life, it's part of life.

Psyber-L is a part of the real world.  Like the telephone, or letters or
yes diaries.  I don't think great revelations occur in the spaces between
people, but within the individual person.  It doesn't matter how the
pictures or words that trigger that change come to the changing person.
Nor does it much matter how that person's experience of the change came
about is expressed -- in person, email, diary, art, music, whatever.  It
eventually reaches one (or not) through its chosen medium, and that is
perfectly normal, whether in "cyberspace" or anywhere else.

Your experience of this as an awakening that was also a sleeping happens to
different people here or anywhere else, for exactly the same reasons.
Nothing special about this place, really, just what we bring to it, and
whether we're suited to this particular part of reality as a means of
expression or not.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 11:08:51 GMT
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All


It looks as if the listserv has been sending us a second copy  of everything a
few days later!  It was due to one of the addresses on the list.  I have fixed
it, I think.  If not then I will know what to do soon.  Some more dupes may
arrive, but then they should stop.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 11:08:51 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Looping problem ~ fixed
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All


It looks as if the listserv has been sending us a second copy  of everything a
few days later!  It was due to one of the addresses on the list.  I have fixed
it, I think.  If not then I will know what to do soon.  Some more dupes may
arrive, but then they should stop.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 13:49:26 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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Subject:      Re: Looping problem ~ test
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hmmm
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 13:49:26 GMT
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hmmm
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 13:49:26 GMT
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hmmm
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:23:41 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
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Walter

> As
> child my father would tell me how ... Once upon a time ... there
> were no people, no animals but just little pools of slime and
> then ... one day ... in the slime some chemicals got mixed up and
> they started to make replications of the combination ... and so
> on ... probably ending with something like ... and if it were not
> for that little pool of slime you would not be here today!  The
> evolutionary process for me leaves me in awe and wonder at the
> marvels of the universe.

And out of this slime crawled/flew the gods and goddesses?  Out of the
chaotic chance of the chemical brew comes symmetry, synchronicity, and
sensory transcendence?  For me, this beginning doesn't have the ring of
accord.  I don't have a sense of "fit" ... the world becomes too small
and the gods and goddesses become even smaller.  I reject this
"evolutionary chemical cocktail" The idea is too small.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:13:57 -0400
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From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
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Robert Longpre wrote:

> And out of this slime crawled/flew the gods and goddesses?  Out of the
> chaotic chance of the chemical brew comes symmetry, synchronicity, and
> sensory transcendence?

Yes - and more.

>  For me, this beginning doesn't have the ring of
> accord.  I don't have a sense of "fit" ... the world becomes too small
> and the gods and goddesses become even smaller.  I reject this
> "evolutionary chemical cocktail" The idea is too small.
>

I have an opposite perception, the theory of evolution strikes me as
elegant and transcendant - a huge leap beyond mythology and
anthropomorphism.   In any event, evolution doesn't care what we think - it
is either true, or not.  Our preferences are inconsequential to tests of
its validity .

...Jim



> Robert
>
> _______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:24:09 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
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Dear Robert ...

> And out of this slime crawled/flew the gods and goddesses?  Out of the
> chaotic chance of the chemical brew comes symmetry, synchronicity, and
> sensory transcendence?

Yes and yes!  Chaos is amazing as you know ... and in the grain of sand was
the universe, it always was, is  ...

Right here in the chaos of this list I see the transcendence (in
glimpses)... in this little pool of slime!  Bigger than me ...

> For me, this beginning doesn't have the ring of
> accord.  I don't have a sense of "fit" ... the world becomes too small
> and the gods and goddesses become even smaller.  I reject this
> "evolutionary chemical cocktail" The idea is too small.

Yet that you see it like that is part of it ... I have no argument with your
perception ... I am perplexed by what you say though ... that the idea that
the atoms the small things contain the gods and goddesses as much as the
energy for nuclear explosions seems to make nothing small to me ...

Perhaps we are not so far apart ... there is a sense of within it or without
it there is an eternal ... something.

Of course what I mean to convey in the recollection of my father is that the
*storytelling* aspect of this is important.  Creation *stories* carry the
transcendence perhaps ... and my father did it very warmly and well.


Walter


PS  This is my first post in Outlook 98  ... I hope the formatting is ok.
It does a lousy job of quoting, now i see why so many people post those
long-short lines!  Agent leaves them as they were, and in Pegasus Mail you
can reformat even other peoples badly done ones.  I wonder if there is a
work-around?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:29:26 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
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HA!

> I have an opposite perception, the theory of evolution strikes me as
> elegant and transcendant - a huge leap beyond mythology and
> anthropomorphism.   In any event, evolution doesn't care what we
> think - it
> is either true, or not.  Our preferences are inconsequential to tests of
> its validity .


We seem to have the same pattern in this triangle as we had in the
"psychotherapy" discussion ... an eternal triangle in this grain of sand!


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:45:32 -0700
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At 08:23 PM 6/04/98 -0600, Robert wrote:

>And out of this slime crawled/flew the gods and goddesses?  Out of the
>chaotic chance of the chemical brew comes symmetry, synchronicity, and
>sensory transcendence?  For me, this beginning doesn't have the ring of
>accord.  I don't have a sense of "fit" ... the world becomes too small
>and the gods and goddesses become even smaller.  I reject this
>"evolutionary chemical cocktail" The idea is too small.

        Agreed.  Neat-o kids' story though, eh?
        Naw, what _really_ happened is that the gods and godesses were
hovering "nearby" eyeing the evolving muck-mass.  After "things" had
progressed to a suitable degree of purgatorial complexity, they began
grabbing the neophytes of the celestial realm and pitching them into the
gene-pool.  "Time you got out and pressed the flesh.  Think or swim!  How
long can YOU hold your breath?  Have a nice day!" etc etc etc  Incarnation,
we call it.

        ahem**

        Personally, I like the idea that the complexity we experience has
evolved from the initial moment of 'self-consciousness' (both personally and
universally).  That's the quantum jump from One to two, from Unity to
Duality, from Nothingness to multiplicity. Physicists refer to "Singularity"
exploding into the Universe at the moment of the Big Bang.  I like to
imagine "God" coming to Its senses, becoming Self-Conscious  The only way
God's gonna answer the question posed by this thread is to commit Itself to
the journey.  Perhaps, in moments of reflection (snicker, snicker) God
regrets having set forth this time.  I feel it's up to us to redeem
Creation, to make It All Worthwhile, bearing in mind those infinitely clever
words "It shall be done unto you, as you believe."

        I mean, really, isn't there a big difference between "Humankind is
the pinnacle of Evolution", and "This is the best idea I've had so far."?
You may want to argue that both assert the same fundamental concept, but a
difference in the 'scale' of the conceptualizer, eh? The conceiver.

        So....

namaste,  Peter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:53:44 +1000
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From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
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Robert Wrote;
>> And out of this slime crawled/flew the gods and goddesses?  Out of the
>> chaotic chance of the chemical brew comes symmetry, synchronicity, and
>> sensory transcendence?

Hi all,

  I would like to appeal to synchonicity  and qoute a web page
  that I think rather relates to this discussion of evolution/chaos
  versus creation and meaning.

                                        I just  now recieved the email
  from my brother about the web page at the same time as this discussion,
  so thats how the synchonicity comes into it... ;-)

  Relating this to social relationships, groups and teams is the same
  question of whether you need a creator and an overall plan (like
  the way they build cathedrals) or whether total group chaos can
  work....

Anyway its all said a lot better here...
http://sagan.earthspace.net/esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar-1
.html

< A smaller quote from that page >
> Linux overturned much of what I thought I knew. I had been preaching the
Unix > gospel of small tools, rapid prototyping and evolutionary
programming for years. > But I also believed there was a certain critical
complexity above which a more
> centralized, a priori approach was required. I believed that the most
important > software (operating systems and really large tools like Emacs)
needed to be built > like cathedrals, carefully crafted by individual
wizards or small bands of mages > working in splendid isolation, with no
beta to be released before its time.
>
> Linus Torvalds's style of development - release early and often, delegate
> everything you can, be open to the point of promiscuity - came as a
surprise. No > quiet, reverent cathedral-building here -- rather, the Linux
community seemed to > resemble a great babbling bazaar of differing agendas
and approaches (aptly
> symbolized by the Linux archive sites, who'd take submissions from
anyone) out of > which a coherent and stable system could seemingly emerge
only by a succession of > miracles.
</ end quote>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:08:26 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
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Peter,

>         Naw, what _really_ happened is that the gods and godesses were
> hovering "nearby" eyeing the evolving muck-mass.  After "things" had
> progressed to a suitable degree of purgatorial complexity, they began
> grabbing the neophytes of the celestial realm and pitching them into the
> gene-pool.  "Time you got out and pressed the flesh.  Think or swim!  How
> long can YOU hold your breath?  Have a nice day!" etc etc etc
Incarnation,
> we call it.

& how we are thwimming for all we are worth!

>         ahem**

[snip]
> Perhaps, in moments of reflection (snicker, snicker) God
> regrets having set forth this time.  I feel it's up to us to redeem
> Creation, to make It All Worthwhile, bearing in mind those
> infinitely clever words "It shall be done unto you, as you believe."

"It shall be done unto you, as you believe."

That is a good quote ... we are here asking It these questions and getting
the answers according to us.  You are seeing *regret* ... along the lines of
"Get me outta here!"  ??  Makes a lot of sense ... but given there is no way
out there is nothing to do but strive on ... The self consciousness the
reflectiveness has taken a quantum leap with cyberspace ... I see the God
Realms breathing a sigh of relief as we can write these reflections ...
diaries in cyberspace.  Along the lines of "Phew ... that was close, but i
have got a bit of a handhold here at last ... now the real fun is about to
start."


>         I mean, really, isn't there a big difference between "Humankind is
> the pinnacle of Evolution", and "This is the best idea I've had so far."?
> You may want to argue that both assert the same fundamental concept, but a
> difference in the 'scale' of the conceptualizer, eh? The conceiver.

What is scale in all this?  Is a small meeting in HIS name not enough?
perhaps all of the Internet is nothing as it is not *named* as *psyberspace*
a realm of the gods.

> namaste,  Peter

namaste ...

I hate to show my ignorance but I'll ask what that means rather than look it
up and let on I knew all along.  Also where did the "It shall be done unto
you, as you believe."  come from?

Peter, welcome to Psyber-L  ...  where is haven@JETLINK.NET  it really does
sound like it is in cyberspace.  You sound like a New Zealander for some
reason ...  Projection!  HA!

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:25:50 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19980409185344.007621d4@wn.planet.gen.nz>
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Miles, Miles, Miles!

This is a wonderful article.  It has just given me a new lease on design and
architecture of psyberspace ... perhaps on life and it *fits* with this
thread which is mining into the depths of psyberspace if you ask me, and
throws some profound perception at it, Eric S Raymond's and yours.

I encourage all to read the whole article -- I will put the URL on
Psybergate   http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm Even though it is about
*software* and not the psyche ... I think it is about the psyche ... in the
way that Christopher Alexander's et al "A Pattern Language" is.

>   I would like to appeal to synchronicity  and quote a web page
>   that I think rather relates to this discussion of evolution/chaos
>   versus creation and meaning.

Yes.  The article is an example of what he is taking about at another level.
He describes how Linus Torvalds' Linux software evolves ... he takes that to
the level where, in his own words:

:: Having studied Linus's behavior and formed a theory
:: about why it was successful, I made a conscious
:: decision to test this theory on my new (admittedly
:: much less complex and ambitious) project.

He forms a theory and then tests it.  Which is to take something from Linux
and run with it ... an 'open system' approach to the development of ideas.
Now his theory is being sold in this bazaar as something relevant to knowing
what God wants!  Oh the wonders of open systems!

At the same time I am thinking that this evolution of software is not unlike
the evolution of psychotherapy.  And that it is also a good model for the
development of Psybernet.


>    Relating this to social relationships, groups and teams is the same
>    question of whether you need a creator and an overall plan (like
>    the way they build cathedrals) or whether total group chaos can
>    work....

Obviously the chaos can work ... but it is chaos with a twist isn't it.
Within this chaos Eric was able to see a series of principle at work that he
has named and developed.  I think they'd be worth extracting out and posting
up.  Also there is considerable form in the model.  There is *someone* who
authorises releases, am I right there?

~~~

One thing reading the paper has done for me is to give me more courage to be
experimental.  I think I am quite tight ... Dolores knows what I mean.  You
all do probably & I am the last to know!


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:03:31 -0700
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At 11:08 PM 8/04/98 +1200, you wrote:

>"It shall be done unto you, as you believe."
>
>That is a good quote ... we are here asking It these questions and getting
>the answers according to us.  You are seeing *regret* ... along the lines of
>"Get me outta here!"  ??

        Hmmm hadn't considered it 'my' regret really, but (of course) if
anything else I said is true then 'that' follows, duznt it?  No, was
wondering at the possibility of God's regret at having made the 'leap of
faith' from singularity to 'the many-tude'.  really there's no going back.
I feel that God really cast Itself to the winds, so to speak.  I don't
believe that It's 'there' somehow, 'outside' all this just observing
detachedly.  I believe that's It's 'in here', with us, as us, through us,
all these little sparkling flakes of consciousness are all that is, all THAT is.

>Makes a lot of sense ... but given there is no way
>out there is nothing to do but strive on ... The self consciousness the
>reflectiveness has taken a quantum leap with cyberspace ... I see the God
>Realms breathing a sigh of relief as we can write these reflections ...
>diaries in cyberspace.  Along the lines of "Phew ... that was close, but i
>have got a bit of a handhold here at last ... now the real fun is about to
>start."

        Yes, comparing notes in psyberspace we can see patterns,
constellations of our (sometimes flake-y) consciousnesses.  "Look, over
there! Is it a bird, is it a plane? It's Theillard de Chardin, rubbing his
spectral hands in gleeful anticipation of the no-osphere!"


>>         I mean, really, isn't there a big difference between "Humankind is
>> the pinnacle of Evolution", and "This is the best idea I've had so far."?
>> You may want to argue that both assert the same fundamental concept, but
>> with a difference in the 'scale' of the conceptualizer, eh? The >> conceiver.
>
>What is scale in all this?  Is a small meeting in HIS name not enough?
>perhaps all of the Internet is nothing as it is not *named* as
>*psyberspace* a realm of the gods.

        By 'scale' I was referring more to attitude, I guess.  The former
perched on his pinnancle of self-aggrandizement is looking down and out
(pretending that he's _not_ 'down & out' g;), the latter, recognizing that
his understanding IS the way it is, is looking upward and inward, realizing
that the really big 'spaces' are within AND readily accesible to each of us.
There's no budgetary lack, or denial of permission by 'authority'...ie, we
don't need a rocket for space travel.  We are the explorers of our own
consciousnesses.  The fundamental clue, or 'article of faith' being that
'my' consciousness is THE consciousness.  Kind of a Copernican revolution,
the internalizing of God.

>namaste ...
>
>I hate to show my ignorance but I'll ask what that means rather than look
>it up and let on I knew all along.

        (I say "nah-ma-STAY") I take it to mean "Spirit in me greets Spirit
in you".  You'll find almost as many interpretations of "namaste" as
"namaste-ers".  I don't know what language it comes from, something Asian.

>Also where did the "It shall be done unto you, as you believe."  come from?

        From the lips of Jesus.  He was explaining how 'miracles' worked.
This idea seems to be the foundation of The Science of Mind (Ernest Holmes)
and the truth of it underlies just about anything to which you turn your
attention.  We are amazingly 'free' to have just about any kind of
experience, as in "the Truth is what you believe it to be."
        I think that an etymological study of "believe" would be a
revelation for many folks.  I (blush) haven't done this, yet I have a pretty
strong feeling for what I'll find. ("I would lief a copy of the O.E.D.")
back at the 'beginning' when God exploded ecstatically, the power of belief
was thus 'given' to all us little spinning flakes of consciousness, and we
'are' whatever we believe ourselves to be.

>Peter, welcome to Psyber-L  ...  where is haven@JETLINK.NET  it really does
>sound like it is in cyberspace.  You sound like a New Zealander for some
>reason ...  Projection!  HA!
>
>Walter

        "haven" is the truth that we believe to be in store for us, "our own
place" somewhere in the hills of California.  Right now we're in Ojai (pr Oh
Hi!) about an hour north of Los Angeles.  As to being New Zealish...hmmm.
Perhaps English-speaking Canadians share some verbal peculiarities with
Kiwis, eh?

namaste,  Peter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1998 05:25:03 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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All,

Thursday 9 April 1998.


New List
I am developing another list as part of Psybernet.  One that is
focussed on stories and interactions of a personal or collective
nature.  Maximum participants:  25.  If you are interested in
participating in the early stages of the planning let me know.


Listservers
I have been looking at the way Psybernet can have lists hosted.
Looking for a local a machine that has 24 hr access to the net.
To that end I have been corresponding with a local person who
runs a mail server.  They use a program called Imail.  I have
rejected the idea as i don't think it meets the standards for
psychological lists.  It does not have the flexibility of
Listserv in the configurability for listowner or member.  Nor are
there searchable archives provided. One thing I like about the
listserver we are using at present is that it is run by a rather
large company who know are themselves the developers of the
software and know the internet backwards.  There are also two
very good mailing lists for list owners which give me a way of
getting to the root of any problems instantly.  I *feel*
supported and secure with the service.

The trouble is that the local Imail option allowed Psybernet to
offer as many lists as I like for the same fee as the two I run
now.  While it had that in its favour, I was not tempted on the
counts of quality.  A friend has just started a list with them
... I'll be interested in seeing how that goes.  It is probably
good enough for some things.


Lists created in an Email Client
I am using Outlook to create small lists.  I am also going to
experiment with Pegasus mail, my old favourite email client,
before I moved to Agent.  That works ok, but the limitations,
even for very small lists is that there is no web based pass-word
protected searchable archives.  I wonder if there is a way of
setting up a "user" for some archiving program that could then be
in a "secure" room on the psybernet web site?  It would be nice
to also have files available there.  For now the setup is filling
a need for a few friends to have a list.


PsyberGate
I have been working away at PsyberGate, on the Psybernet web
site.  If anyone has been seeing it each day they will have
noticed that it has been updated most days sometimes two or three
times.  Josh (my son in London, freelancing in computer graphics
design and web sites) has been giving me a few tips, I hope it
shows though there is a long way to go!  I hope people are using
it for its intended purpose ... as a way into the web with a
"psychological" bent.  No ads!  If you have a wish list for what
you would like to see there ... let me have it!

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm


In Psyber-L
The thread called "Where does God want to go today?" is giving me
a buzz.  The highlight is the reference to Eric S. Raymond's
article The Cathedral and the Bazaar.  I have a link to it on the
Psybergate page.  A beautifully written paper on the psychology
and philosophy of software development that has implications
beyond its subject matter.  Now that I have read it right
through, I am going to use Netscape rather than IE4.01  and look
more closely a their email clients. The reason is that they have
recently opened their code to all -- a radical move in the
commercial environment.  The discussion in psyber-L somehow
relates all this to the nature of the realm of the gods.


Psybernet Occasional Email.
This post is going Psyber-L and also being sent as a Psybernet
Occasional Email, which mostly goes to people who are not on the
list, but like to be kept informed of what is happening with
Psybernet.  I will also send it to the group in Christchurch
which is known to us as the Face-to-Face group, which as its own
Email list.


Christchurch Polytech Course.
I am in the midst of planning a course on the Psychology of the
Internet with the Christchurch Polytech Course.  It has not been
fully finalised but looks as if it might happen.  One evening per
week for 8 weeks.  Should it all come to pass I will certainly
create a list for course members and introduce them to Psybernet.


All for now!


Walter Logeman




























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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:06:07 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Microsoft in talks to acquire Firefly
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Microsoft in talks to acquire Firefly

This has implications for the sociometry of the net, the world IMO.  Is this
really where the gods want to go today?  Fire fly has technology that links
people into pools according to their tastes.  It is not the technology that
is interesting but the implications of knowing who likes what you like.
That has implications for the social development of humans ... think family
... think tribes ... community ... nation... and now there is a new way of
association *taste pools* ... it is in its infancy and MS are buying it!
Scared?

I have a link up to the articles related to this and others that are
related.  If you have some to add let me know.  I think this is all related
to the current state of the evolutionary process.

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:43:50 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Microsoft in talks to acquire Firefly
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>Fire fly has technology that links
>people into pools according to their tastes.

Cheaper to buy Firefly's tech than to co-opt other developers, and also
cheaper, I reckon, to invest in FireFly's management and momentum. The
latter is more than frosting in this case.

But, the tech itself isn't so special. Lots of a.i. and programmers and
systems people working on such things.  And in the world of technical
marketing, what to do with 'highly characterized data' has been part of the
program for many many years.

***

FireFly came out of the work on 'music agents' at MIT in the early 90's.
I've tried all the music agents and, for me, they just don't work very
well. At the point I become aware I'm being fed a marketer's idea of what I
might like as opposed to the serendipitous confluence of impressions from
persons with similar unfettered tastes, then, as a marketer my self, I
understand that most of the ballgame is "who you lead to the front end".

Another way to put it is: the vision may be to be 'interesting' but it
never results from an aggregation of the uninteresting; this is the fatal
flaw of intelligent agents and their limited heuristic.

***
best to all,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:17:16 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Microsoft in talks to acquire Firefly
Mime-Version: 1.0
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I very much enjoy your Gateway, Walter.

I too see the Microsoft / Firefly acquisition as an interesting note, and
want to thank Hoon for a comment which as usual hits the nail for me.

And Miles, thanks for pointing us all to "The Cathedral and the Bazaar".
Most helpful.

Must run.  Best to all,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:07:08 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Microsoft in talks to acquire Firefly
In-Reply-To:  <l03130308b1533f90241b@[153.37.88.30]>
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Charles:

> I very much enjoy your Gateway, Walter.

Thanks.  I am enjoying working on it.  I have been getting the odd
suggestion of what to put up, and hope for more.  I am pleased with my
efforts at HTML ... this is my computing at its most advanced!  I have a new
little table on the top right and I believe the page now works in Netscape
as well ... it was a bit poor there before.

I've added some more links on the ms / ffly theme -- including links to some
efforts / dreams I have been involved with in collaborative filtering ...
for some reason it is an idea that grabs me ... though I agree that the
implementation has not done it for me.  It looks as if MS want it for
"profiling" more than ACF (Automated Collaborative Filtering).  What is
this "profiling", does anyone know?

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:28:58 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
In-Reply-To:  <199804081703.KAA09342@hangar.jetlink.net>
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Peter, All ...


> At 11:08 PM 8/04/98 +1200, you wrote:

That is a long time ago even for Psyber-L!  I hope you are still there
... I have enjoyed the brief discussion and I am not sure why I have
not been more active on the list ...  will write about that in another
email.  Yoy mentioned that you saw God's regret ... I suggested this
was something in you ...

>         Hmmm hadn't considered it 'my' regret really, but (of
> course) if anything else I said is true then 'that' follows, duznt
> it?  No, was wondering at the possibility of God's regret at having
> made the 'leap of faith' from singularity to 'the many-tude'.
> really there's no going back. I feel that God really cast Itself to
> the winds, so to speak.  I don't believe that It's 'there' somehow,
> 'outside' all this just observing detachedly.  I believe that's
> It's 'in here', with us, as us, through us, all these little
> sparkling flakes of consciousness are all that is, all THAT is.

So that IT'S regret is intimately connected to yours.  And for me to
stay so insistent on that probably to mine ... however I am not sure
what IT'S regret is about in your eyes ...

> God's regret at having made the 'leap of faith' from singularity to
> 'the many-tude'

Regret at becoming human ... at being here is us all in this reckless
tumult?  Here is a quote from Moreno in *Who Shall Survive?* (1953)
that I think might add something to our discussion:

~ quote ~

Genesis of Spontaneity

When God created the world He started off by making every being a
machine.  He made one machine push the other and the whole universe
ran like a machine.  That seemed to be comfortable, safe and smooth.
But then He thought it over.  He smiled and just put an ounce of
spontaneity into each of the machines and this has made for endless
trouble ever since -- and for endless enjoyment. "

p. xvii


If God would come into the world again he would not come into it as an
individual but as a group., as a collective.

p.xx

(He goes on to say how in every particle there is some spontaneity and
creativity ... )

... thus creating for himself innumerable oppositions, the counter
spontaneity of innumerable beings.  This made him dependent on every
being and because of the enormous extent of distribution, *almost
helpless*; but it made us and all being far more dependent upon him
than we would have been if we would not share in some of his
initiative and responsibilities."

p. xxi

~ end quote ~


~~~


> Yes, comparing notes in psyberspace we can see patterns,
> constellations of our (sometimes flake-y) consciousnesses.  "Look,
> over there! Is it a bird, is it a plane? It's Theillard de
> Chardin, rubbing his spectral hands in gleeful anticipation of the
> no-osphere!"

Exactly.  And we can travel & explore no-osphere with costs that might
be high, but which are of a different type than the costs we need to
travel through the real world ... as you say:

> the really big 'spaces' are within AND readily accesible to each
> of us. There's no budgetary lack, or denial of permission by
> 'authority'...ie, we don't need a rocket for space travel.  We are
> the explorers of our own consciousnesses.  The fundamental clue,
> or 'article of faith' being that 'my' consciousness is THE
> consciousness.  Kind of a Copernican revolution, the internalizing
> of God.

... or the perception of the numinous in the psyber-layer we are in
here ...  (well in one of the seven <grin> )


~~~


> >namaste ...

> (I say "nah-ma-STAY") I take it to mean "Spirit in me greets
> Spirit in you".

OK!

Namaste!


> >Also where did the "It shall be done unto you, as you believe."
> come from?


>         From the lips of Jesus.  He was explaining how 'miracles'
> worked. This idea seems to be the foundation of The Science of Mind
> (Ernest Holmes) and the truth of it underlies just about anything
> to which you turn your attention.  We are amazingly 'free' to have
> just about any kind of experience, as in "the Truth is what you
> believe it to be."


I don't think we all that free to "see" what we choose.  There are
restraints on us ... I have called them virtual reality constraints in
the past.  You may think there are only there because I believe them
... but not to me!  Yet the lines ...

"It shall be done unto you, as you believe."

appeal.



> Perhaps English-speaking Canadians share some verbal peculiarities
> with Kiwis, eh?

Perhaps.


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 00:30:12 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
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All,


I have been busy in "Psybernet" as a whole ... working on the web pages and
planning a new list, which is literally keeping me awake at night just
thinking about it.

I have found Psyber-L quiet and something has been keeping me from writing
... I wonder what it is ... I have some reluctance to be the "hub" ...
keeping things going for the sake of it.  I am also perturbed that a
pertinent discussion goes so quiet ... I have had the urge to itemise the
principles that Eric Raymond proposes in his The Cathedral and the Bazaar
... I want to do that ...

I know what it is ... and I feel a little silly as I say it here ... I am
afraid of negative feed back or none at all!

Hmmmm ...

What I enjoyed about The Cathedral and the Bazaar of course is that I was
reading Psybernet where he had FetchMail.  How can the principles of the
Bazaar apply here in this project?  That question is utterly on topic for
the experiential exploration of Psyberspace ...

It is also about feedback and participation ... is this a bazaar or a
cathedral, or none of the above?


~~~


The difficulty I think I have had is that when I have *open* discussion
about list owning ... the very core stuff about creating psychological
spaces on the net I feel a lack of response ...

I value the response I get ... but have felt alone in the process ... there
has also been some negative comment mostly though it is that I experience my
own negativity when writing the more cognitive stuff ...

So that answers my question above of why I have not been writing in the list
more about these things that I think about ... sometimes writing is not
easy!

~~~

I will write something very soon about Psybernet as a Bazaar & I would love
to hear others on that theme ... I have at least named some of my fears here
if not overcome them ... perhaps that is enough.



Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 00:44:02 +1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      FW: Harvard Conference on Internet & Society
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All,

See the message below.  I have booked my ticket and will be at the
conference!  I am looking forward to this, what a buzz!  The URL to the
details of the conference are up on the Psybergate page ...
http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm   see the section called Featured
Sites.  I will be writing here direct from the conference and more
importantly about my warm-up to it in the next few weeks.


Walter


-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah Hancur [mailto:hancur@law.harvard.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, 14 April 1998 10:51
To: walter@psybernet.co.nz
Subject: Harvard Conference on Internet & Society


Dear Walter Logeman,

Congratulations! I am writing to inform you that you have been selected by
the Conference Chair to receive a special invitation to the Second
International Harvard Conference on Internet & Society. This invitation
waives the $1,295 Conference fee and is non-transferable.  Travel and
lodging expenses are not included. You will be receiving a registration
package in the mail within the next week containing a formal invitation and
details about the event.

As a member of the public interest community, you will bring an important
perspective to panel discussions, common room sessions, and the various
dinners and receptions we have planned. We are truly excited and honored by
your participation!


Sincerely,

Sarah Hancur
Berkman Center for Internet & Society
Harvard Law School

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:48:09 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, et al,

It's Judith back after a bout with the proverbial dark night of the
soul...this time the physical...how long has it been since being in this
space? maybe over a year...mother board blewout disconnecting
me...certainly symbolic...get me out of my head into my body...the time
spent on body has been extra-ordinaryperplexingilluminating with a huge
dose of frustration...questions of balance, listening, the seduction of
thots to the disregard of body, and profound awe... much learning not the
least of which was my coming into direct experience with mythe body's
intelligence...synchronicity, soul purpose, and the inner cooperative event
kept me fascinated with the process...still does...

So in the spirit of your thoughts and feelings I share a journal entry just
after the tumor(benign Thymoma) was removed
Sept 97
> Life is moving slowly...yesterday 4 weeks have past...four weeks of
>healing...four weeks of knowing only about my physical...giving my body
>the time it needs with no idea of what that means...other parts of my life
>in hybernation...is this the last of the dark nights of the soul...this
>physical challenge...cracking open my heart chakra, reaching in and taking
>out the tumor tucked behind my heart, a second heart growing, fed by years
>of pain...choices leading to the exact moment when the surgeon takes of
>his scalple, a place where it all collected, hiding behind my heart until
>exposed...a good thing, keeping it all safe, encased, not penetrating into
>other parts of my body...a resevoir of endless disappointment, drop by
>yearly drop collected...with a certain perfection...when the researchers
>examine it, will they learn its story, will they see beyond the mass into
>its divine purpose, the safekeeper...collecting the debris of all those
>failed choices, keeping the faith until the bodymind finally chose to
>look...fear confronted, support attracted...the sun blazes today after the
>wanning of the full moon...the 21st approaches, a year since the wormhole
>"entered," mistakenly thought of as "through"...there is ambivelance, an
>acute sadness at the loss of so steadfast a friend, silently doing its
>calling, enduring the scorge of "tumor", finally sacrificing itself so
>that I may live...and how to honor so worthy my safekeeper...by honoring
>the life it was honoring...>

Blessings to all,
Judith in reverence for her body

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 02:38:34 +1200
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All,


Here are the 19 principles from Eric Raymond's paper related to software
design.  I think it is challenging to apply these to Psybernet's development
... not software but psychological interactive content on the net.  I have
written to Eric S Raymond letting him know we have been discussing his paper
here.  I noticed he has also written a sequel to the paper ... I will put
the URL up on the P-Gate.


1. Every good work of software starts by scratching a developer's
personal itch.

2. Good programmers know what to write. Great ones know what to
rewrite (and reuse).

3. ``Plan to throw one away; you will, anyhow.'' (Fred Brooks, ``The
Mythical Man-Month'', Chapter 11)

4. If you have the right attitude, interesting problems will find you.

5. When you lose interest in a program, your last duty to it is to
hand it off to a competent successor.

6. Treating your users as co-developers is your least-hassle route to
rapid code improvement and effective debugging.

7. Release early. Release often. And listen to your customers.

8. Given a large enough beta-tester and co-developer base, almost
every problem will be characterized quickly and the fix obvious to
someone.

9. Smart data structures and dumb code works a lot better than the
other way around.

10. If you treat your beta-testers as if they're your most valuable
resource, they will respond by becoming your most valuable resource.

11. The next best thing to having good ideas is recognizing good ideas
from your users. Sometimes the latter is better.

12. Often, the most striking and innovative solutions come from
realizing that your concept of the problem was wrong.

13. ``Perfection (in design) is achieved not when there is nothing
more to add, but rather when there is nothing more to take away.''

14. Any tool should be useful in the expected way, but a truly great
tool lends itself to uses you never expected.

15. When writing gateway software of any kind, take pains to disturb
the data stream as little as possible -- and *never* throw away
information unless the recipient forces you to!

16. When your language is nowhere near Turing-complete, syntactic
sugar can be your friend.

17. A security system is only as secure as its secret. Beware of
pseudo-secrets.

18. To solve an interesting problem, start by finding a problem that
is interesting to you.

19: Provided the development coordinator has a medium at least as good
as the Internet, and knows how to lead without coercion, many heads
are inevitably better than one.

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Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:00:34 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
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Walter,

Surely the "core stuff" about creating psychological spaces on the net is
not a discussion about list owning, or about whether this list is a
cathedral or a bazaar. Sure, you can have clever, polite, safe discussions
about structural issues, but is this really the essential stuff of
psychological spaces? Do you really think the reason for the silence on
this list of late is because people won't talk with you about list owning?
How self-absorbed. Why is it that people who were writing to this list a
few weeks back have gone silent? Is it merely a byproduct of off-list
factors, or is the reason embedded in the (breakdown of) interactions on
the list? If always and only the former (or, to put it another way, if
people (can) always say it's the former), then how can there be meaningful
discussion here?

Maybe there's a way to integrate the structural and the personal. Perhaps
the answer to your cathedral/bazaar question is that it can be at some
times one and at other times the other. When people don't want to talk with
one another, when they want to be alone with their own thoughts, the list
is a cathedral, a huge space of solitary contemplation, but when people
engage with one another, when there is lively discussion, it's a bazaar, a
cluttered, confined space of animated interaction. So what are the
necessary prerequisites for lively discussion here? What is it that engages
people, that draws them into lively interaction on the list?

Walter, this is maybe not what you expected, but it is anyway some feedback
and participation for you.

Simon

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Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:51:52 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Bazaar permutations
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Okay, let's translate, a few times.

design, develop, program=create
programming=creativity
programmer, developer=psyche
code,software=creation
debugging=iteration
customers, beta-tester, recipient=soul
+ a double kludge :-) [marked *]

>1. Every good work of creativity starts by scratching psyche's
>personal itch.
>
>2. Good psyche know what to write. Great ones know what to
>rewrite (and reuse).
>
>3. ``Plan to throw one away; you will, anyhow.'' (Fred Brooks, ``The
>Mythical Man-Month'', Chapter 11)
>
>4. If you have the right attitude, interesting problems will find you.
>
>5. When you lose interest in a creation, your last duty to it is to
>hand it off to a competent successor.
>
>6. Treating your users as co-psyches is your least-hassle route to
>rapid creative improvement and effective iteration.
>
>7. Release early. Release often. And listen to your soul.
>
>8. Given a large enough soul and psyche base, almost
>every problem will be characterized quickly and the fix obvious to
>someone.
>
>9. Smart data structures and dumb creation works a lot better than the
>other way around.
>
>10. If you treat your soul as if they're your most valuable
>resource, they will respond by becoming your most valuable resource.
>
>11. The next best thing to having good ideas is recognizing good ideas
>from your soul. Sometimes the latter is better.
>
>12. Often, the most striking and innovative solutions come from
>realizing that your concept of the problem was wrong.
>
>13. ``Perfection (in creation) is achieved not when there is nothing
>more to add, but rather when there is nothing more to take away.''
>
>14. Any tool should be useful in the expected way, but a truly great
>tool lends itself to uses you never expected.
>
>15. When writing gateway creations of any kind, take pains to disturb
>the data stream as little as possible -- and *never* throw away
>information unless the soul forces you to!
>
>16. When your language is nowhere near Turing-complete, syntactic
>sugar can be your friend.
>
>17. A security system is only as secure as its secret. Beware of
>pseudo-secrets.
>
>18. To solve an interesting problem, start by finding a problem that
>is interesting to you.
>
>19: Provided the creative psyche* has a medium at least as good
>as the self-aware collective*, and knows how to lead without coercion,
>many heads
>are inevitably better than one.

***

Hey that was fun!

***

HooN


           \\\|///
         \\ ~   ~ //
          (  @ @  )
 -------oo00-(_)-00oo---------
|                             |
|     Stephen Calhoun         |
|       hoon@apk.net          |
| http://junior.apk.net/~hoon |
|                             |
 -----------------------------

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:50:20 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      experiment 1
Comments: To: NetDynam / Network Group Dynamics Mailing List
          <NETDYNAM@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
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(published in the Journal of Organizational Development...I think. author
godonlyknows)

thoughtfood...an experiment

HooN

***

Rhetorical Analysis The attempt to understand (1) how persons draw upon and
use symbols, language, tropes in situated interactions, including how
persons ascribe, invoke and contest traits, identities, motivations,
categorizations, etc., and (2) what is interactively achieved through this
process, including the social, linguistic constitution of reality. The
rhetorical turn in the human sciences represented a challenge to
representationalist and foundationalist views of knowledge and has informed
many versions of social constructivism and social constructionism.

Appreciative inquiry, on the other hand, is based on a socio-rationalist
paradigm (Gergen, 1982, 1990) which treats organizational reality as a
social construction and a product of human imagination. Reality is seen as
a linguistic achievement made possible by our engagement in social
discourses. Appreciative inquiry "...refers to both a search for knowledge
and a theory of intentional collective action which are designed to help
evolve the normative vision and will of a group, organization, or society
as a whole" (p.159). Cooperrider makes the theory of change embedded in
appreciative inquiry explicit in a later paper on the affirmative basis of
organizing (Cooperrider, 1990). In this paper Cooperrider proposes the
"heliotropic hypothesis" - that social forms evolve toward the "light";
that is, toward images that are affirming and life giving. In essence, his
argument is that all groups have images of themselves that underlay self-
organizing processes and that social systems have a natural tendency to
evolve toward the most positive images held by their members. Conscious
evolution of positive imagery, therefore, is a viable option for evolving
the group as a whole.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:51:35 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      experiment 2
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          <NETDYNAM@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
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also Journal of Organizational Development, author notknownbyme

HooN

***

Metaphor

The use of metaphor linguistically conveys meaning through imagery. By
using a phrase or a single word to connote something else quite different,
as if the two were the same, concrete meaning can be given to whole new
ideas and possibilities. Metaphors offer a window into new ways of
conceptualizing and understanding the world, often with few words. Because
they can tap both the analytical understanding and the imagination of new
possibilities and because they can communicate cognitive, affective, and
behavioral dimensions of experience as well, they stimulate a holistic way
of seeing, often far more readily than through logic.

Yet, as the metaphor sharpens and expands insight into some dimensions of a
phenomenon by providing a new lens for seeing, it simultaneously blurs
vision to other aspects of that same phenomenon. For example, as an
organization is metaphorically described as a culture, the political and
power dynamics that also coexist within that organization can be blurred
and shielded from sight, leaving people unattuned to the implications of
the power inequities. Thus, use of multiple metaphors to describe entities
as complex as organizations are needed to avoid the limitations and
distortions that any single metaphor provides. Gathering metaphors from
many diverse people both inside and outside of an organization and
considering each one as a source of insight, rather than seeing one or a
few as the source of understanding, offers far more expansive and inclusive
opportunities for learning about organizations.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:52:10 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      experiement 3
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          <NETDYNAM@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU>
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ditto

HooN

***

Boundaries

Informational markers which help us to navigate complex spaces. Modernism
has tended to treat boundaries -- for example, the boundary that defines
where this business firm ends and that one begins, or the boundary that
declares who in an organization is authorized to access a certain kind of
information -- as fixed and objective. They are seen as fences that are
primarily needed in order to protect entities from trespass by unwanted
visitors. The post-modern answer to this view of boundaries should not be
to renounce them altogether, and to refuse to identify entities with
limited membership, such as firms or workgroups, because in fact boundaries
serve an important informational and coordination function. Although it is
true that often information access is limited for the wrong reasons, where
the main goal is to maintain hierarchical power relationships, the
post-modern answer to this perspective should not be to make all
information openly accessible to everybody.

A hermeneutical approach doesn't reject boundaries, but rather understands
them differently. It sees them as relatively flexible, as not objective
things, but as socially constructed conventions that are open to
re-interpretation or re-negotiation. And they are primarily needed not as
fences to keep people out but as signposts that can help us to understand
one another and to work together more effectively. In the design of
information systems, for example, there is a practical need to have not
only linkages which help us to see how one thing is related to another, but
also buffers, which make sure that information I am unlikely to find useful
doesn't clutter my space. A system which spews all information equally to
everybody in effect simply makes all the information useless.

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Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:48:27 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
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At 09:48 AM 4/19/98 -0400, Judith wrote:
Sept 97
.cracking open my heart chakra, reaching in and taking
>>out the tumor tucked behind my heart, a second heart growing, fed by years
>>of pain...choices leading to the exact moment when the surgeon takes of
>>his scalpel, a place where it all collected, hiding behind my heart until
>>exposed...a good thing, keeping it all safe, encased, not penetrating into
>>other parts of my body...a resevoir of endless disappointment, drop by
>>yearly drop collected...with a certain perfection...when the researchers
>>examine it, will they learn its story, will they see beyond the mass into
>>its divine purpose, the safekeeper...collecting the debris of all those
>>failed choices, keeping the faith until the bodymind finally chose to
>>look...fear confronted, support attracted...the sun blazes today after the
>>wanning of the full moon...the 21st approaches, a year since the wormhole
>>"entered," mistakenly thought of as "through"...there is ambivelance, an
>>acute sadness at the loss of so steadfast a friend, silently doing its
>>calling, enduring the scorge of "tumor", finally sacrificing itself so
>>that I may live...and how to honor so worthy my safekeeper...by honoring
>>the life it was honoring...>

Wow! Judith...this is wondrous. What an beautiful way to see the tumour.
Amazing. Thank you for this.

May I share what you have written with others? I think this vision, this way
of looking at it, has incredible capacity for healing.

Julienne

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Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:12:37 -0400
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Julienne,

>May I share what you have written with others? I think this vision, this way
>of looking at it, has incredible capacity for healing.
>
>Julienne

Of course...when I discovered how my tumor had served me prior to the
operation, I then knew why I had been so reluctant to have the
operation...the undifferciated fear I had was deeply connected to its
function as safekeeper...I spent a great deal of time in meditation and
prayer...

It is my experience that to look at disease as the enemy-using the military
metaphor-is to be cut off from the power of the body's natural healing
process...for me it is about the connectionrelationship and about where one
places one's stake in the ground...if one places the stake in physical
reality and looks out from there one gets one perspective, if one places
the stake in the inner reality and looks out from there there is an
entirely different perspective...my preference is the latter...

Blessings,
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:12:43 -0400
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Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
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<May I share what you have written with others? I think this vision, this way
of looking at it, has incredible capacity for healing.

Julienne>

Of course, Julienne...it seems to me that by seeing disease as the "enemy"
to be "attacked" cuts one off from the body's healing intelligence...I
spent a great amount of time meditating to discover what my
undifferenciated fear was based on before the operation...this put me in
touch with the tumor and the purpose it was serving...then I had to go thru
a time of prayer and gratefulness so I could release it and that turned out
to be the hardest part...the love I feltfeel for it wasis so profound...and
she says laughingly it still was no picnic:)

Blessings,
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:24:58 -0400
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Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
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Simon responded to Walter on 4/19
>Maybe there's a way to integrate the structural and the personal. Perhaps
>the answer to your cathedral/bazaar question is that it can be at some
>times one and at other times the other. When people don't want to talk with
>one another, when they want to be alone with their own thoughts, the list
>is a cathedral, a huge space of solitary contemplation, but when people
>engage with one another, when there is lively discussion, it's a bazaar, a
>cluttered, confined space of animated interaction. So what are the
>necessary prerequisites for lively discussion here? What is it that engages
>people, that draws them into lively interaction on the list?

I've returned to the list after many months away and noticed the
quiet...didn't want to interrupt the silence...I continue to wonder if
silence isn't necessary or at least integral to this space...after all in
music it's the rests...

On a lighter note I keep thinking about those times when I wanted
conversation with my then husband and he wanted to watch the game ;) and no
that wasn't the reason for the parting...

Tra la,
Judith

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Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:27:36 -0700
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From:         Helen&PeterEvans <haven@JETLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
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>I value the response I get ... but have felt alone in the process ... there
>has also been some negative comment mostly though it is that I experience my
>own negativity when writing the more cognitive stuff ...

Hello Walter, All,

We have been on the list less than a month or so.  So far, even the very
little that has been sent is worthy of reading.  Perhaps the discussion
wanes because it is worthy and for many little more must be said personally
after the insight is achieved.  then lurking takes over to watch someone
else's process through it.

Personally, I would rather a thoughtful few than the many insinceres.

Regarding negativity on the net, I've noticed it increasing.   what used to
be discussions are not taking on the forum of chat rooms.  The whole
dynamics of this communication mode is changing I believe. Yet, it is a mode
of communication I am very grateful for.

Some rambling for you all...Peter and I met on a dicussion group.  The
subject was Free will and destiny.  Several were involved and our messages
were public and then some private e mails about our lives....our
feelings,our philosophies of life,    However, except as it was part of the
story  we did not  ask about careers, etc., the "resume" or "introduction"
stuff.  We talked.  We say we met from the inside out.  We didn't have the
preconceptions of tall, short, old., young or should I please or not be
pleased, and when we decided to meet across continents a few months later,
we asked each other "how do I recognize you?" when we planned to meet at the
airport.

 We spent 36 hours together and went back to rearrange our lives to spend
them together.  Three months later we came together again to live together
until we could legally untangle ourselves, and we  married 16 months later
and the grand discussion still continues.

During the time we had to learn about the "outside" of each other.  We came
from quite different backgrounds, right down to how does someone squeeze the
toothpaste tube, yet we found the inner part first, the part that doesn't
really change, the heart.....this is sometimes never connected even in 20
plus year marriages.  From that commonality we've found a great treasure,
our life together.

the internet has that ability....to connect from our common places, from our
common fears, from our common hopes and dreams.  I bless it.


>
>So that answers my question above of why I have not been writing in the list
>more about these things that I think about ... sometimes writing is not
>easy!

We found so many asking us how and why we would come together after "so
little time together".  Much of that queston is based on what we think we
"know about someone" what we value about someone, what is important to us
ultimately. It's quite interesting to ask oneself that question.

 We had to ask ourselves "what if it works out", instead of what everyone
else asked "what if something goes wrong".  It wasn't "easy", but our hearts
knew something our minds couldn't comprehend.  We had to allow for the
possibility of a mistake, or critique, or perhaps you'd call it negativity
to be part of our lives.  We had to face it and walk through it.

some ramblings from.....

Helen
>
>~~~
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 00:13:43 -0700
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Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
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At 11:28 PM 19/04/98 +1200, you wrote:
quoting Moreno
        snip
>He smiled and just put an ounce of
>spontaneity into each of the machines and this has made for endless
>trouble ever since -- and for endless enjoyment. "
>
>p. xvii
>
>
>If God would come into the world again he would not come into it as an
>individual but as a group., as a collective.
>
>p.xx

        My feeling is that God is already (has always been) 'in' the world.
At the moment of creation, what was there to make it 'out of' except God?

>(He goes on to say how in every particle there is some spontaneity and
>creativity ... )
>
>... thus creating for himself innumerable oppositions, the counter
>spontaneity of innumerable beings.  This made him dependent on every
>being and because of the enormous extent of distribution, *almost
>helpless*; but it made us and all being far more *dependent* upon him
>than we would have been if we would not share in some of his
>initiative and responsibilities."
>
>p. xxi
>
>~ end quote ~

        Thank you for this.  Speaking of *almost helpless*, this is part of
the 'regret' I speculatively imputed to God earlier, but that's rather
shallow.  The enormous extent of distribution of God renders It the 'weak
force' in the universe, aka 'gravity', the mutual tendency toward unity.  I
like to think of it as Love, that gentle yet persistent gravity of spirit,
the attraction of like to like.  Another way to view the eventual
gravitational 'collapse' of the universe into singularity, would be as an
ecstatic reunion of all being.
        Interesting, the word 'dependent' above.  It has paradoxical
connotations.  The quality of divine spontaneity tempers our mere
'mechaneity' and could be called independence or free will.  We are
dependents (offspring) of God, rather than dependent on God.

>And we can travel & explore no-osphere with costs that might
>be high, but which are of a different type than the costs we need to
>travel through the real world

        Please expand on what you perceive the 'costs' of no-osphere travel
to be.  A 'risk' that I perceive is that one may limit the extent of the
no-osphere by one's own limited (socially conditioned?) concept.
Perhaps anticipatory regret...hmmm  the extrapolation from self-concept to
IT ALL.

>> the really big 'spaces' are within AND readily accessable to each
>> of us. There's no budgetary lack, or denial of permission by
>> 'authority'...ie, we don't need a rocket for space travel.  We are
>> the explorers of our own consciousnesses.  The fundamental clue,
>> or 'article of faith' being that 'my' consciousness is THE
>> consciousness.  Kind of a Copernican revolution, the internalizing
>> of God.
>
>... or the perception of the numinous in the psyber-layer we are in
>here ...  (well in one of the seven <grin> )

        I don't feel confident that I follow you here, Walter, although I
sense the 'bones' of your cosmology in the lumpy bag of my understanding.
The seven psyber-layers?  Please, say on.


>> Also where did the "It shall be done unto you, as you believe."
>> come from?
>
>>         From the lips of Jesus.  He was explaining how 'miracles'
>> worked. This idea seems to be the foundation of The Science of Mind
>> (Ernest Holmes) and the truth of it underlies just about anything
>> to which you turn your attention.  We are amazingly 'free' to have
>> just about any kind of experience, as in "the Truth is what you
>> believe it to be."
>
>I don't think we are all that free to "see" what we choose.  There are
>restraints on us ... I have called them virtual reality constraints in
>the past.  You may think they are only there because I believe them
>... but not to me!  Yet the lines ...
>
>"It shall be done unto you, as you believe."
>
>appeal.

        We could say "It is already being done unto you as you are already
believing".  The constraints on our freedom are not necessarily consciously
self-imposed, but may be unquestioningly accepted by default. Most
social/cultural conditioning would fall into this category.
        Lately, I've been thinking of 'the numinous' as the 'chaotic
potential' of the universe, whose only Law is to say "Yes!" to whatever form
our thought/belief imposes on it.  This view has been shaped to a large
extent by my recent study of the Science of Mind and by a casual
acquaintance with the more popularized ideas of chaos theory.  As a race, we
have a lo-o-ong history of believing the world to be thus and so.  Through
my relationship with my beloved (who I met via the Internet!) and my recent
studies, I have begun the process of sloughing the conditioning of
pessimistic conservatism and opening to a new reality wherein I am a joyful
co-creator.  The results of this new belief are manifesting daily in my
experience as love, happiness, financial betterment and friendship. Someone
defined 'luck' as Living Under Correct Knowledge.
        Thanks for being 'out there', Walter.

namaste,  Peter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:50:09 +1000
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bazaar permutations
In-Reply-To:  <v04003a01b15f9747efce@[207.54.160.71]>
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>>9. Smart data structures and dumb creation works a lot better than the
>>other way around.

perhaps this could be translated -- rotating within the mental
space inside my head ( rather than the clever
external semantic rotation you have done) -- to something like..


        " a happy and cohesive group of relatively
          uninspired individuals works a lot better
         than a group of geniuses       with no boundaries
         between them  "


( well defined boundaries is a pretty key part
of yer 'smart data structures', though I'm not
entirely sure if thats been appropriately
translated in the above.. ;-)
---------------_---------
           o  | |
    _  _      | |  _   ,
 /|/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
-------------------------
 miles@mail.com
 http://www.webolution.com.au/miles
 64 4 384 3345
-------------------------

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:04:16 +1000
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psybernet & the Bazaar
In-Reply-To:  <000201bd6b8e$e60d47c0$98fe37d2@walterl.es.co.nz>
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... on the theme of Psybernet and the Bazaar

At 12:30 AM 4/20/98 +1200, Walter Logeman wrote:
[ actually in the thread re: [P] Thoughts and feelings about writing in
Psyber-L ]
>
>What I enjoyed about The Cathedral and the Bazaar of course is that I was
>reading Psybernet where he had FetchMail.

Interesting that you should mention this association
with email.. it reminds me of the following.

One of the people contributing to the 'java-mozilla'
(fairly 'Bazaar' type ;-) effort/list is someone
known as "Jay"...

 [    A quote from his home page..  ]
>
> Next, I designed, and Terry Weissman and I implemented,
> the Netscape Mail and News clients, versions 2.0 through 3.0.
> This was our contribution to the proof of the Law of Software
> Envelopment:
>
> ``Every program attempts to expand until it can read mail. Those
>   programs which cannot so expand are replaced by ones which can.''


Also... something else from his homepage that Psyber-L netizens will
probably enjoy...

        http://people.netscape.com/jwz/dadadodo/nph-dadadodo.cgi


Enjoy!

---------------_---------
           o  | |
    _  _      | |  _   ,
 /|/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
-------------------------
 miles@mail.com
 http://www.webolution.com.au/miles
 64 4 384 3345
-------------------------

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:17:47 +1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
In-Reply-To:  <v03110700b15fb59832cf@[195.200.17.10]>
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Simon,

> Surely the "core stuff" about creating psychological spaces on the net is
> not a discussion about list owning, or about whether this list is a
> cathedral or a bazaar.

Core stuff if you ask me, though not "the" core stuff, which there probably
isn't.  It is core in the way that group therapists and therapists might
discuss the way to work with the psyche, believe me the approach they have
has a big impact.  I think that discussing the roles of leadership and
structure in psyberspace is essential to the purpose of this list and
comparing it to the role of the leadership and structure in software
development is pertinent ... cyberspace psyberspace and the noosphere are
being created as we work here.  Your cosmology may vary, perhaps it does and
then *that* becomes very pertinent.

> Sure, you can have clever, polite, safe discussions
> about structural issues, but is this really the essential stuff of
> psychological spaces?

I dot see it as separate from the personal, or the more collective psyche.
It does not feel more safe than other discussion to *me*, I think I have
been saying that as I do it ... feeling quite vulnerable as I work on those
issues.  I find there is a certain pain associated with creating something
... yet I keep doing it.    Certainly feeling when there were flames that
others expect me to put out and so on.  I also hope that the reflections on
the role of listowner -- and the associated questions are pertinent to us
all & not just to me.


> Do you really think the reason for the silence on
> this list of late is because people won't talk with you about list owning?

No.

> How self-absorbed. Why is it that people who were writing to this list a
> few weeks back have gone silent? Is it merely a byproduct of off-list
> factors, or is the reason embedded in the (breakdown of) interactions on
> the list? If always and only the former (or, to put it another way, if
> people (can) always say it's the former), then how can there be meaningful
> discussion here?

I think it is mostly "embedded in the interactions".  Whether that is a
breakdown or not depends on ones experience really ... I find I have filled
the silence (in my head) with some yearning & wanting and my last email
expressed some of that, I understand how the tone of that might have sounded
like a whinge and might have led to people feeling that there was an
expectation on them ... not my intention.

> Maybe there's a way to integrate the structural and the personal. Perhaps
> the answer to your cathedral/bazaar question is that it can be at some
> times one and at other times the other. When people don't want to
> talk with
> one another, when they want to be alone with their own thoughts, the list
> is a cathedral, a huge space of solitary contemplation, but when people
> engage with one another, when there is lively discussion, it's a bazaar, a
> cluttered, confined space of animated interaction.

Ok, another contribution to the list of metaphors for Psyber-L.  Simon ... I
recall your posts at the times when we saw it as a lake.  When I use the
metaphor of Psybernet as a bazaar I am
thinking more in terms of how the project evolves.  Some people might be
content to be here in the ... lake -- bazaar -- cathedral -- mall --
fireside nook, I am at times but I also want to do more things like the
DreamEvent ... I am planning another list ... how people are included in
that, how I do that ... how others do that is addressed, but not answered in
the Cathedral/Bazaar paper by Raymond.

> So what are the
> necessary prerequisites for lively discussion here? What is it
> that engages
> people, that draws them into lively interaction on the list?

What do you think?  I am drawn in by the things that interest me ... and
often I initiate discussion on them ... recently:   the seven levels of
psyberspace -- and the whole question of the spiritual dimensions of the net
and how it evolves ... the discussion on those things has been very
satisfying to me, especially when Miles bought in the Cathedral/Bazaar
reference.

> Walter, this is maybe not what you expected, but it is anyway
> some feedback and participation for you.

It sure is, got a few things going ... how are you doing with this
discussion?  I'm finding it ok.  The bit about self indulgence hurt ...
touches a nerve about my involvement here ... other than that I feel ok
about it.


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:30:32 +1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Bazaar permutations
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19980421205009.007668b8@wn.planet.gen.nz>
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Miles, HooN,

The original was:

9. Smart data structures and dumb code works a lot better than the
other way around.

Not being a programmer I am not sure I grasp this ... however I do grasp
your translation Miles:

>         " a happy and cohesive group of relatively
>           uninspired individuals works a lot better
>          than a group of geniuses       with no boundaries
>          between them  "

Makes me think:

Given inspired structures within which to be and relate we all become
geniuses.
With restrictive structures we go mad and kill each other.

Interesting how as we play with this I think I am learning about the meaning
of the original.


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:43:59 +1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dan Randow <randow.stone@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Bazaar permutations
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Hi

> >>9. Smart data structures and dumb creation works a lot better than the
> >>other way around.
>
> perhaps this could be translated -- rotating within the mental
> space inside my head ( rather than the clever
> external semantic rotation you have done) -- to something like..
>
>
>         " a happy and cohesive group of relatively
>           uninspired individuals works a lot better
>          than a group of geniuses       with no boundaries
>          between them  "

"networked dumb entities work better than isolated smart ones"

"intelligence is a social phenomenon"

Dan

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:36:25 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Where does God want to go today?
In-Reply-To:  <199804200713.AAA32708@jetlink.net>
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Peter,

Enjoyed your reply and will focus on the questions you ask in my response:


>         Please expand on what you perceive the 'costs' of
> no-osphere travel
> to be.

I was thinking of the hard work.  Whether a meditator or a psybernaught or a
poet ... to travel in the noosphere requires abandonment of real life.  That
is the price.  I recall reading Jung saying that we cant use what we find in
the psyche for our daytime ends, that to approach the psyche like that is
"imperialism of the soul" ... the price is what we loose as we put such
intensity into the noosphere ... the rewards are plenty but of a different
kind.  Just my take on it, some people might glide with ease?


> The seven psyber-layers?  Please, say on.

Tongue in cheek about the seven psyber-layers ... but not quite.  Teilhard
de Chardin invented the no-osphere etc.  Why not look at, invent the texture
of it?  One level might be when you see THE consciousness in your own
consciousness, another when we see the dynamics of a group through the
network.

On April 2 I wrote:

| There must be seven spheres of experience of the psyche
| in Psyber-L!  and this is the first, words on a screen,
| posts in a folder.


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:07:21 -0700
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      personal: Trevor Huddleston, 1913-1998
Comments: To: magister-l@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
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Friends and Players:

Yesterday, the London Times carried the obituary of a man I knew pretty
intimately for about ten years, one of the very great men of this passing
century.  I wrote up a piece about him as my "new year's greetings" this
year, and sent it to both Psyber-L and Magister-L at that time.  I trust
you'll forgive my reposting this slightly revised version here.

I can't say the news of Trevor Huddleston's death surprised me very much,
because he had the good fortune to see his life's work come to fruition,
and had been painfully ill for a long time: in many ways, his death comes
as a relief to myself and his many friends, sad though it is. I'd like to
tell you a little about the man, though, to praise one of the truly
exemplary though too-little-remembered figures of our time at his passing.

*

It is not every monk that gets a knighthood, but in the British New Years
Honours List this year it was announced that the Anglican monk Fr. Trevor
Huddleston CR had been awarded the Knight Companionship of the Order of
Saints Michael and George.

Father Trevor was my legal guardian (roughly speaking, an "adopted father"
to me) from
shortly after the death of my father when I was nine, to the attainment of
my majority at 21 in the English system.

Trevor Huddleston was educated at Christ Church, Oxford, and was for most
of his life a priest and monk in the Anglican Community of the
Resurrection, popularly known as the Mirfield Fathers. He was sent to South
Africa by his community while still a young man, and worked in Sophiatown,
just outside Johannesberg, as a priest and teacher.

While in South Africa, Trevor Huddleston repeatedly and quite literally put
his life on the line in defence of the very simple proposition that the
color of a person's skin was immaterial in view of the love that was
possible between any two people. I do not think he in fact *saw* more than
one person at a time, and his responses to situations were geared directly
to the service of that love.

I would like to tell you two stories about this man:

One young black kid in South Africa aged about 8 or 9 was sitting with his
mother on the "stoop" outside his house in a South African shanty-town,
when a white priest walked by and doffed his hat to the boy's mother. The
boy could hardly grasp how this had happened -- his mother was a black
woman, as one might say, "of no special acount". But the priest in question
was Trevor Huddleston, and it was a natural courtesy for him to lift his
hat in greeting a lady... The young boy never quite recovered from this
encounter. We know him now as the Nobel Peace laureate, Archbishop Desmond
Tutu.

Another young black kid, Hugh, aged 12 or 13, fell ill and was taken to
hospital, where Trevor Huddleston visited him. Trevor asked him what he
would like more than anything in this world, what would so thrill and
please him that he would have the greatest possible motive for getting
better, getting out of the hospital and back to school. Hugh said, "a
trumpet, Father", so Trevor got hold of a trumpet which he then presented
to the boy: now known the world over as the great jazz trumpeter, Hugh
Masekela.

These are two simple stories of how Fr Trevor simply and straightforwardly
loved whomever was before him, regardless of the enormous pressure at the
time to discriminate between "real" and "insignificant" people -- a love
which made an indelible mark on those whose lives it touched.

Trevor Huddleston was a founding member of the African National Congress,
the author of the first non-fiction work (Naught for Your Comfort) to
critique his beloved South Africa's apartheid policy, the only white person
honored with the Zulu nation's Isitwalandwe wreath, reviled publically for
meddling in politics by an Archbishop of Canterbury who later declared he
had been in error and that Fr Trevor was about as close to a saint as one
could find, President of the Anti-Apartheid movement for many years,
eventually "translated" to an Archbishopric himself -- and a man I believe
should himself have received the Nobel Prize for Peace many years ago,
though his work was too controversial at the time, and had faded in public
memory by the time his long efforts were finally rewarded with the ending
of Apartheid and the birth of the new South Africa.

I invite you to drink with me a toast this day to the late Trevor
Huddleston CR KCMG -- a human being in the best sense of the word, and for
many years my legal guardian, model and inspiration.

His knighthood at the age of 84 came as a timely recognition of an
extraordinary life of service, and his death leaves us all impoverished.

*

With best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:57:37 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: personal: Trevor Huddleston, 1913-1998
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Charles,

I will join you in this toast to a man that is both god-father to you
and likely to many other young men -- god father in the best sense of
the word.

> I invite you to drink with me a toast this day to the late Trevor
> Huddleston CR KCMG -- a human being in the best sense of the word, and for
> many years my legal guardian, model and inspiration.

To Trevor, who serves as inspiration that life can be lived
meaningfully, and with honour.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:13:48 -0400
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From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: personal: Trevor Huddleston, 1913-1998
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Robert Longpre wrote:


> To Trevor, who serves as inspiration that life can be lived meaningfully, and with
> honour.
>



Amen.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:29:19 +1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: personal: Trevor Huddleston, 1913-1998
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Charles,

> I invite you to drink with me a toast this day to the late Trevor
> Huddleston CR KCMG -- a human being in the best sense of the word, and for
> many years my legal guardian, model and inspiration.

I am happy to drink to that, especially as he was like a good father to you,
that is an important tribute, good fathers are hard to come by!  Also
because of his stand on apartheid.  As someone who has been in many marches
here protesting against NZ's links with the old regime I feel an immediate
thread of common experience and values.

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:26:05 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
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Walter an all,

I was thinking of a song I listened to recently by Paul Simon:

:: Hello darkness my old friend
:: I've come to talk with you again

THE SOUNDS OF SILENCE

> I have found Psyber-L quiet and something has been keeping me from writing
> ... I wonder what it is ... I have some reluctance to be the "hub" ...
> keeping things going for the sake of it.

I agree about the need to have silence and sound be a product not of one
person, but of a community of persons.  What is pertinent as a
conversation? I wonder.  Perhaps the company of adventurers here prefer
silence since that is their primary means of participation.

I am learning to relax in the silence.  Perhaps this relaxing puts more
onus upon you as list-owner, perhaps it's asking less.

> I know what it is ... and I feel a little silly as I say it here ... I am
> afraid of negative feed back or none at all!

Ahhh-hh!  So another is caught in the vortex.  It's hard to be
victimised by silence if one keeps one's mouth shut.  So then, why am I
speaking up again?


Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:40:15 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
In-Reply-To:  <353EB4CD.14A7@cybersurf.net>
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Robert
you wrote:

>Ahhh-hh!  So another is caught in the vortex.  It's hard to be
>victimised by silence if one keeps one's mouth shut.  So then, why am I
>speaking up again?

I'm puzzled ...

You mean:  "I can protect myself from the pain of silence by
being silent?  I must be a masochist to break the silence?"

I think along the lines:  "If I find the silence painful then it
is time for me to speak."

In practice my disclosures in this very thread led to responses
... such as your one that i appreciate.



Walter




___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:14:49 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Bazaar permutations
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19980421205009.007668b8@wn.planet.gen.nz>
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Hello Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>, on Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:50:09 +1000
you wrote:

>>>9. Smart data structures and dumb creation works a lot better than the
>>>other way around.
>
>perhaps this could be translated -- rotating within the mental
>space inside my head ( rather than the clever
>external semantic rotation you have done) -- to something like..
>
>        " a happy and cohesive group of relatively
>          uninspired individuals works a lot better
>         than a group of geniuses       with no boundaries
>         between them  "

Better, or more pleasantly?

>( well defined boundaries is a pretty key part
>of yer 'smart data structures', though I'm not
>entirely sure if thats been appropriately
>translated in the above.. ;-)

It would be well to note that the rules for programming that were offered
are applicable mainly for programs that must be maintained by groups, are
for general purposes, and can use other code that is not nearly so nice to
look at.

The rules are not inviolate.  When necessary, code must be complex, data
structures simple, and boundaries completely erased to be as ruthlessly
fast as possible.  Something like what doctors do in the operating room, or
what EMT's do at an accident scene.

Such programs are what allow your computer to work as well as it does.
Applications are only part of the story; they're most of the code written,
but can't run without the dirty hidden parts.

-JoAnne, who writes both kinds of code

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:28:06 -0400
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Subject:      experiment 4
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parsed and spattered...(from Online Sound and Virtual Architecture
(Contribution to the Geography of Cultural Translation <> Sean Cubitt
<>Originally presented at the Seventh International Symposium on Electronic
Art (ISEA 96), Rotterdam, the Netherlands, 16--20 September 1996.

***

We are born not only prematurely, but incompletely: our presumably genetic
disposition to language and mentation (reason, emotion and so on) is a
disposition to commune.

Individuality is an effect of community.

What we experience as individualism, personal properties, are in fact just
that: properties. You "have" a self: you "are" not one.

Nobody speaks "deep structure." ... "context dependency" is a cool way of
dropping to one's knees and beating the earth with one's fists.

Consciousness, that process which means, is environmental from the point of
view of the individual.

The fundamental attribute of communication is mediation. The medium
nurturing such evolution is mediation itself: the material practices of
signification.

Art is a form of aberrant encoding that precipitates internal shifts within
a communicative world, whose innovations ignite trails of knock-on effects,
and whose accidental grammars can collide with and interfere in neighboring
discourses.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:28:12 -0400
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also from Cubitt

***

The reference of any community is to the lifeworld which it inhabits, and
which its discourse describes, as a compass describes a circle. This is how
what we think of as a shift in perspective occurs when someone throws into
a discussion observations derived from another community by, for instance,
asking cognitive humanists about gender or an Israeli where Palestinians
come from. What changes is not the perspective on the world, but the
lifeworld that is being defined as the one shared in the conversation. This
kind of clash is a vital factor in the evolution of communities.

***

HooN

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Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:04:20 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
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Walter,

You write

> I'm puzzled ...

in reference to that which I had posted ... so am I ... However, since
the words were uttered they must have some meaning, likely not at the
literal level, perhaps as a metaphor ... something like dreaming when
sense is nonsense and nonsense is the only sensible way to communicate
with the self which is trying so hard to be dense and difficult ...

Robert

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Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:14:14 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Subject:      Odyssey within storm-tossed inner seas
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Walter and all,

I have written three poems in the past two days and risk showing them
here, not because this is a risky place to present poems, but because
the poems perhaps need to remain silent ... you decide ...

Robert

                *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

Are You My Anima?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

a small visit within
hesitant and shy
as I peer inward
wearing a mask
as I look into
this mirror
of self
only to find you
young
feminine
unmasked
I wonder if one day
I will have
the courage to
leave this
hiding

04/22/98 8:36 AM


        *       *       *       *       *

Auschwitz
^^^^^^^^^

starved, denied, betrayed, raped
victim of judgement
of tyrannical belief
denied voice, denied life
raped by father
raped by nature
starved
shriven of womanhood
of sexuality
denied creation
denied creating
silence
strangled
by
I

04/21/98 2:16 PM


        *       *       *       *       *

                The Monk
                ^^^^^^^^

        music soundless within
      the scripts of inner spaces
      scripts masked in unclothed
     eros smiling invitingly and I
        both drawn and repelled
         in the dark triangle
              of longing
               and lust
             feeling lost
           feeling hot anger
         feeling dirty a sinner
            unworthy to face
              the face of
                  Self
                   of
                   I

04/22/98 8:44 AM

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:17:04 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      About Trevor Huddleston...
Comments: To: magister-l@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
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Friends:

I just wanted to let you all know that your messages of condolence and
inspiration meant a whole lot to me. It's funny, I don't feel sad. I'm
carrying on with my life just about as usual, but those messages managed to
bring the tears I needed -- a pause here and a pause there to feel my own
grief, and my relief for Trevor, who felt he'd been hanging on too long and
was eager to leave... Good, refreshing tears.

Somehow, knowing that others were getting a glimpse of the man brought home
to me just how much I loved him, in a way that nothing else quite managed.

In any case, my grateful thanks to you all.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:47:41 +1200
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From:         Tetahiarohanui Mekahanuimemananui <pteale@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
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At 09:26 PM 4/22/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Walter an all,
>
>I was thinking of a song I listened to recently by Paul Simon:
>
>:: Hello darkness my old friend
>:: I've come to talk with you again
>
>THE SOUNDS OF SILENCE
>
>> I have found Psyber-L quiet and something has been keeping me from writing
>> ... I wonder what it is ... I have some reluctance to be the "hub" ...
>> keeping things going for the sake of it.
>
>I agree about the need to have silence and sound be a product not of one
>person, but of a community of persons.  What is pertinent as a
>conversation? I wonder.  Perhaps the company of adventurers here prefer
>silence since that is their primary means of participation.
>
>I am learning to relax in the silence.  Perhaps this relaxing puts more
>onus upon you as list-owner, perhaps it's asking less.
>
>> I know what it is ... and I feel a little silly as I say it here ... I am
>> afraid of negative feed back or none at all!
>
>Ahhh-hh!  So another is caught in the vortex.  It's hard to be
>victimised by silence if one keeps one's mouth shut.  So then, why am I
>speaking up again?
>
>
>Robert
>
Greetings!  My name is Tetahiarohanui Mekahanuimemananui, and I'm
relatively new to the list.  My name is a Maori name, (I'm from New
Zealand,) and means The One With Much Love And Much Strength And Much Mana.
 (Mana doesn't have a direct English translation but if you think of the
most intense forms of pride, prestige, honour, respect, and integrity, mana
means all that and much, much more).

I can relate to feeling safe in silence, but at the moment it seems to be
killing me.  I generally don't talk about what's going on for me, because I
was taught very early on in life that
(1) nobody really cares, and
(2) showing vulnerability means you're going to die.

I've grown past that bulls**t now, though not as much as I seem to think.
I feel angry that in my life I have no-one to turn to for support, yet I
also know that no-one's there because I won't let anyone close to me
because I'm scared that revealing a weakness means there's a place where
people can attack.

When I grew up, I was involved in gangs, crime, living on the streets, and
the rest of it where it was completely unsafe to show any emotions,
vulnerability, weakness, etc. cause it would get me killed.

So, silence for me is like a shield that has a very sharp inside, like
keeping people away is hurting more than if I let them close.  I'm trying
to open up in my life, and it's really hard, but I'm getting there slowly.
I even managed to tell someone about the death of my daughter on *Bad*
Friday about 2 weeks ago, which is really cutting me at the moment.

My had's starting to float now, which means I need to get drunk, which for
the last 2 weeks is all I've been doing besides work.

                                     Ka kite koutou ano, e hoa ma,
                                     (See you all again, my friends),
                                     Tetahiarohanui Mekahanuimemananui


Ki mai koe ki au, he aha te mea nui o te au, maku e ki atu, he tangata, he
tangata, he tangata.
(If you should ask me, what is the most important thing in this world, I
would answer, it is people, it is people, it is people.)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:24:56 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
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Kiaora Tetahiarohanui,

Good to have you here and to have another of us from NZ.  I found your post
direct and honest and a good introduction.  You make it really clear that
you come from a background where it was unsafe to be open and yourself, and
that leaving behind the fear from those times is part of a struggle you are
winning, but not finished with.

Have you had a good experience on-line so far?  It is not a place where you
can get physically hurt but it is possible to feel a lot ... in psyber-L we
have mostly been well tuned into the feelings that we experience ...
sadness, pain and anxiety ... and a sense of connection and warmth.

I hope you have a good experience in Psyber-L ...

> Ki mai koe ki au, he aha te mea nui o te au, maku e ki atu, he tangata, he
> tangata, he tangata.
> (If you should ask me, what is the most important thing in this world, I
> would answer, it is people, it is people, it is people.)

I get a good feeling when I think that behind all those computers that make
up the net there are people, and that it is people connecting not machines.
I also like to see the Maori language, thank you.


Walter

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Date:         Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:51:29 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
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Hello Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>, on Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:14:14
-0600 you wrote:

>Walter and all,
>
>I have written three poems in the past two days and risk showing them
>here, not because this is a risky place to present poems, but because
>the poems perhaps need to remain silent ... you decide ...

I can't decide that for you, but I do want to thank you for sending these
to the list, I was glad to read them.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:36:56 -0600
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Walter and friends,

I have just set up a new discussion group called JUNG.  This came about
because the JUNG-PSY group that I was a member of died today due to
threats of lawsuits.  I don't know if others here are interested in a
group such as this.  If there is, subscription is made to:

        majordomo@laplaza.org

        subscribe jung <email address>

At times, the discussion gets quite academic as many who were part of
the jung-psy list are Jungian analysts.

I hope that it wasn't too improper of me to announce this in this forum.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:03:11 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: New list for discussion of Jungian Psychology
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Robert,

Thanks for the post.  Of course it needs to be here!  Yes it died, if that
is the word for the closure by the list owner because of fear that the host
university might be sued.  Who has the responsibility for who posts what?
Have you got the list from Mathew Clapp of the previous subscribers is there
a negotiated succession here?  He mentioned another address to write to if
there was interest to continue.  Will you be "moderating" the Jung list, in
the technical sense of reading posts before they are distributed?  What are
the implications of all this?

These are the type of questions that have been so strongly on my mind as I
am planning a new list and also as we have had the ownership theme with Eric
Raymond's papers coming to the list.

I hope it feels ok to discuss these sorts of thing here ... or perhaps we
need a list for hosts of psychological lists.  That is one of the functions
of Psyber-L ... among its many and a more specialised one might be called
for.

Looking forward to hearing more! I am really pleased the Jung-Psy list will
not die!  I was a happy lurker!


Walter



> Walter and friends,
>
> I have just set up a new discussion group called JUNG.  This came about
> because the JUNG-PSY group that I was a member of died today due to
> threats of lawsuits.  I don't know if others here are interested in a
> group such as this.  If there is, subscription is made to:
>
>         majordomo@laplaza.org
>
>         subscribe jung <email address>
>
> At times, the discussion gets quite academic as many who were part of
> the jung-psy list are Jungian analysts.
>
> I hope that it wasn't too improper of me to announce this in this forum.
>
> Robert
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:13:35 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: New list for discussion of Jungian Psychology
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At 06:03 PM 4/25/98 +1200, you wrote:
>Robert,
>
>Thanks for the post.  Of course it needs to be here!  Yes it died, if that
>is the word for the closure by the list owner because of fear that the host
>university might be sued.  Who has the responsibility for who posts what?

Why were they worried about this? What was happening?

Julienne

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Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:21:21 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Walter

> Thanks for the post.  Of course it needs to be here!

Thank you for this.  I was hoping that this was the case.

> Who has the responsibility for who posts what?

The new list JUNG is not moderated.  It is an open list just like this
one.

> Have you got the list from Mathew Clapp of the previous subscribers

A list of the subscribers was included in the "cc" of Ashley Dickson.  I
sent out a message to this list asking for feedback with regards to the
set up of the new list and found good support.  With no advance notice
from Matthew and no immediate indication of his plans to pass on the
reigns to Marshall Pahl of Spring Publications.  Marshall has talked
with me about his plans to set up JUNG-PSYCH (a continuation of
JUNG-PSY) at springpub.com.  This conversation happened just a short
while ago, after the JUNG list was set into place.  Marshall's group
will be moderated in the same manner that Matthew's group was
moderated.  I haven't found out how to subscribe to this new list.
Likely this list will be ready quite soon.  BTW, Marshall has subscribed
to JUNG as well.

> Will you be "moderating" the Jung list, in
> the technical sense of reading posts before they are distributed?

Absolutely not!  Those who post will have their posts "posted"
automatically without any human intervention ... no censorship.

Marshall is very concerned about legal issues, especially following the
fiasco with jung-psy where Matthew and the University of Georgia which
hosted the list were threatened with law suits, apparently by the legal
representatives of Richard Noll.  Marshall warns me to be careful, about
what is said on the list, especially when it is about Richard.

> These are the type of questions that have been so strongly on my mind as I
> am planning a new list and also as we have had the ownership theme with Eric
> Raymond's papers coming to the list.

I don't know how to reply to this.  Life is a risk ... the greatest risk
is death and that is a given end result.  There is so much to learn
here.  I begin to have less and less hope that this medium will be a
freeing medium.  I sense that power is gathering and it will be used to
"control".

> I hope it feels ok to discuss these sorts of thing here ... or perhaps we
> need a list for hosts of psychological lists.  That is one of the functions
> of Psyber-L ... among its many and a more specialised one might be called
> for.

I think that this is something that others on this list must decide.
This is not simply about list-owning, facilitatiing, it is about the
nature of cyberspace.

I also look forward to further discussion.

Robert

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Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:24:43 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Julienne,

> Why were they worried about this? What was happening?

I hope my last post (and that by Walter) explains the situation
somewhat.  Since this all happened behind the scenes (this is the second
Jungian discussion group to meet with this scenario in the past several
months), it is hard to now exactly what are the full reasons for list
death.

Robert

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Date:         Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:45:48 -0700
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Dear Tetahiarohanui,

I was very moved by your frankness and sincerity.  I wanted to immediately
respond that someone does care, however I wanted to do it privately for some
reason.  I don't exactly know why.

I do know I once felt very much the same about vulnerability.  Nothing could
ever hurt me...I thought.  Sure it did, but I learned to hide it well. I
learned to demand what I wanted instead of ask.  then after many many
trials, one following another someone reached out to help....and I
accepted...and then another and then another.  Someone explained to me it
wasn't a flaw within myself to need help, but rather an honoring of myself.
Once in a while old habits resurface, but once recognized they fade like dreams.

Honor yourself.  From someone who cares.



> I'm trying
>to open up in my life, and it's really hard, but I'm getting there slowly.
>I even managed to tell someone about the death of my daughter on *Bad*
>Friday about 2 weeks ago, which is really cutting me at the moment.

you can tell me on private e mail if it helps, I've also learned to open and
share only as far as it's comfortable.

Helen


>

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Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:56:45 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: New list for discussion of Jungian Psychology
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At 12:24 AM 4/25/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>> Why were they worried about this? What was happening?
>
>I hope my last post (and that by Walter) explains the situation
>somewhat.  Since this all happened behind the scenes (this is the second
>Jungian discussion group to meet with this scenario in the past several
>months), it is hard to now exactly what are the full reasons for list
>death.
>
>Robert

Yes, thanks, Robert.

Julienne

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Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:37:10 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Libel and Email [longer than long]
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All,

My interest in the work of Jung, the analytic/archetypal psychology, and,
my own experiential involvement with self-exploration using the archetypal
framework, (no matter how cheaply!) all served as a key nexus for my
initial venturing out onto the internet in mid 1995. As I've mentioned
before, it was a search on <Jung> which led me to Psyber-L's web page and
this list.

So, I did briefly check into the unmoderated environment of the Jung usenet
news group, but after finding John Hollwitz's Jung-Psyc mailing list, and
the lists Psyber-L, Netdynam, Temenos, I was set-up to act out my
narcissism, ;-] among other personal affects and effects.

It has been interesting, and remains interesting, to be both a participant
and an observer in so many psychological spaces, each with distinctive
characteristics, different 'feels', differing dances and rhythms. At the
same time, the anti-Jung impulse is, in its most inflammatory expression,
represented by the person and contribution of Richard Noll, and so it has
happened that moderated email lists have closed up shop because they are
unwilling to moderate themselves to the extent that Noll is protected from
*potentially* slanderous and libelous statements made by both amatuer,
uncredentialed, and professional Jungians, as contributions to those groups.

A can of worms of giant legal, social and psychological import...right off
I'd like to note that the likelihood of any of this being resolved in favor
of unfettered free speech is *zero*.

***

As for the demise of Mathew Clapp's list at the University of Georgia,
there is much which might be noted, although, as I write this today, what
transpired to jeopardize the list and then kill it, remains, for me, in the
murk. That it apparently involves the threat of some legal action involving
Richard Noll, (author of two books aimed at debunking the credibility of
the work of C.G.Jung, _The Aryan Christ : The Secret Life of Carl Jung_,
_The Jung Cult : Origins of a Charismatic Movement_,) is of import to any
and all lists to which Noll is a subscriber, or is publicly archived,
since, reading between the lines, it can be guessed that the actionable
offense was libel, defamation, or slander, of some sort.

The general questions about this are several, and in part regard knotty
legal questions about authoritative responsibility at the different points
in a network which has as its purpose, the publication of contributions by
its users. Does this require distinctions which are of an entirely
different order than those held for other kinds of publishing? It is also
possible to correlate components of the network with components of the
publishing and distribution systems for print publishing, broadcasting, etc.

***

The standard of libel held is held differently in different places. In many
countries libel laws are structured to guarantee the media is severely
circumspect about what it publishes, (for example in the newspaper
throughout much of Africa,
http://www.africanews.org/atlarge/stories/19971209_feat1.html) so the added
complication of the boundariless digital network is, as expected, new
territory. However, courts are generally conservationists as far as the law
goes and not prone to insightful extensions, especially when the law itself
is built upon correlations and analogues. So, the internet as easy as it is
to remark: 'the internet is new, new-fangled, a paradigm shift' this does
not guarantee the conservators of the law in a variety of locales will see
it that way.

***

No one can say definitively how it is libel laws in the various
jurisdictions of the United States are to be applied in cases of clear
libel. This is true for conventional media as it is for digital media!
Libel (in the broadest sense,) is the publication of materials with the
intention to cause malice, which recklessly disregard the truth. It is
presumed that the agency of their malicious untruth results in "actual
harm". ("a publication without justification or lawful excuse which is
calculated to injure the reputation of another by exposing him to hatred,
contempt or ridicule." (Parke, B. in Parmiter v. Coupland (1840) GM&W 105
at 108; http://www.cyberlibel.com/libel.html ; alternately: Libel is the
"publication of defamatory matter by written or printed words, by its
embodiment in physical form, or by any other form of communication that has
the potentially harmful qualities characteristic of written or printed
words." Publication of a defamatory matter is "its communication
intentionally or by a negligent act to one other than the person defamed."
A communication is defamatory if it "tends to so harm the reputation of
another as to lower him in the estimation of the community or to deter
third persons from associating or dealing with him."33 The difference
between libel and slander has traditionally depended upon the form of the
communication: oral defamation generally is considered slander, while
written
defamation is generally considered libel. The distinction is important,
because libel requires no proof of special damages and is actionable by
itself, while slander generally requires proof of special damages in order
to be actionable. from
http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/bbs_defamation_liability.paper )

Wow! Who's intent is actionable? In our country one answer is both odd and
par-for-the-course: whomever has the most assets, "deepest pockets",) to
convert into damages. So it is that the poor author with few assets who
originated the libel almost never gets sued alone when the publisher of his
or her libelous statements makes for a better, more lucrative target. On
the other hand, the most common kind of contributor in the print world, the
person who writes a "letter to the editor", invariably gets sued alone, for
the precedent has been set, that the newspaper publisher, even in the
moderated "letters to the editor" forum, is not liable for the libelous
statements made in such letters. This precedent, however, is not set in
stone. It is reasonable to presume that if such a letter is part of a
pattern of published letters slanted toward a specific series of related,
possibly libelous statements, that the newspaper might be held accountable.

Also, the subject of libel is likely to be a public figure, a person with a
professional reputation, or both. This ties into the conception of
"qualified privileges" to generate the most important exceptions and many
of the conundrums which surround the adjudication of libel lawsuits,
including the exception made for 'artistic parodies' and also that the harm
done to a public figure must be more exceptional than that done to lesser
figures. (Although "proof of harm" is the least consistently adjudicated
factor in libel law, even to the extent that in certain cases it is
presumed to follow and need not be proved.)

***

In the digital arena the problems are amped. Since it is the first easily
accessible medium for public discussion for which zero moderation is its
hallmark, and since the data flow through the originating network is almost
always copious, opaque to the network node, and digitized, and the chain of
servers through which data must flow to be distributed is determined by
on-the-fly routing, and similarly copious, opaque and digitized, then the
possible correlations mentioned above realistically become tenuous and
possibly hard to apply.

However, it would seem that the trend is to hold the originating "network"
accountable; not going so far as to judge it to be akin to a periodical
(!), but to then go far enough to test whether its owners and
administrators are aware of what is being published on or through the
network. Obviously this is easily applicable to web pages, which, after
all, are public documents. It is also less easily applicable but
nonetheless possibly applicable to moderated email and usenet groups. As
far as the instant, unmoderated publishing which goes on in usenet and on
unmoderated lists, it (certain precedintensionents of law,) is not easily
applicable but, in the cases where it was tested, the cases were settled;
some recompense was made. " "You really can't say anything different on the
Internet than you could in a newspaper," says [attorney] Potts. Can
individuals be sued for libel for statements made in e-mail? "Oh yes," says
Potts, who points to a lawsuit in Australia where a professor won $40,000
in damages because of an e-mail publication made over the Internet
disputing his qualifications and making other unpleasant remarks. " "
(http://www.cyberlibel.com/offend.html)

***

As for Noll, definitely a public figure with a professional reputation, the
court-testable import of various statements made by contributors to
Jung-psy about Noll, might in some way satisfy the demands of libel (etc.)
law, i.e. might be actionable. (This is not without an almost unbelievable
sense of involved ironies; see follow-up post.) Is the moderator also
accountable? Is the network's owner accountable? The case, as far as I can
gather, is that neither were willing to expend the resources in what is
almost always a hideously expensive litigation, to learn if they are
accountable or not. Nor do they wish to develop the resources and 'filter'
through which the list's flow of contributions might be subjected to
necessarily brute tests for "maliscious disregard for the truth, etc.". If
Noll made a threat of legal action, it was sufficient to end the
defamation; to end the list too!

>From (http://www.ncl.ac.uk/~nlawwww/articles1/auburn1.html) " Conclusion:
From the above discussion, it is evident that the greatest impact of
defamation law on the Internet is the potential for the authors of
defamatory messages posted on the Internet and the administrators of Usenet
sites, bulletin board systems and mailing lists to be sued for the
distribution of defamatory material. In the future, it is likely that,
unlike Rindos, the plaintiff will sue both the author of the defamatory
remarks and the administrators of these services in search for the "deepest
pocket". Faced with the need to insure against liability for the
distribution of defamatory material, providers will be forced to reconsider
the provision of these services at relatively little cost.

Short of terminating the service provided, these news administrators might
avoid liability in a number of ways. Firstly, they can screen each item
posted to ensure that no defamatory material is allowed to be posted and
displayed at their site. Given the volume of postings, this would be
impractical. Further, not all defamatory material is readily identifiable.
It will be too costly to pay a legally qualified person to screen all the
postings. But if the person screening the material is not legally
qualified, it is unlikely that this precaution will be effective in
avoiding the publication of defamatory material. The magnitude of this
problem is evident in the number of defamation actions brought against
newspapers despite the fact that each newspaper has sub-editors screening
what is a small number of articles in comparison to the number of postings
appearing on the Internet. Secondly, it may be possible to arrange for the
filtering of a newsgroup by a moderator. Given the international nature of
the Internet, this too is impractical. There are problems with who will
employ and pay the moderator and how the moderator is to be selected. If
the moderator has no legal qualifications, the same problems in identifying
the defamatory material arises. This problem may still be present, albeit
in a smaller magnitude, even if the moderator or screener is legally
qualified. Thirdly, the administrators can refuse to subscribe to
newsgroups with known defamatory content. This will not completely
eliminate the circulation of defamatory material because a survey of the
more staid newsgroups will reveal much potentially defamatory material.
However, this precaution will go some way in demonstrating that the
administrators, given the measures they have taken, have no reason to
suspect that they were handling defamatory material and hence can avoid
liability as unintentional distributors. In addition to this, the position
of the administrators can be made more secure by randomly checking the
postings on those newsgroups subscribed. Alternatively, governments can
legislate to protect the news administrators at institutions such as
universities from liability for the distribution of defamatory material.
This is necessary to protect one of the most efficient methods of
communication. Given the slow pace at which governments grapple with
technological advances, perhaps the best option is self-regulation and
individual restraint."

***

I think, given the early results of my own research, that an appeal to the
idea that the internet is a "frontier" and is absolutely excepted from the
real world strictures of law which concern freedom of expression, or
rather, limits on this freedom, is naive.

Should there should not be a legal remedy for intentional harm done to another?

Should there be a legal distinction between casual publication which might
cover email lists, usenet, etc. and more formal publication? (This is a
distinction not extended to contributions made to newspapers etc. in the
'real world'.)

What are the free speech and the 'protection from harm' ramifications of
holding the originating network and its owners, or managers or employees,
accountable for materials for which it serves as a publishing forum?

What burdens are reasonable to place on ISP's, and administrators and
moderators to monitor the publishing traffic which they facilitate?

What follows from the sudden new combination of millions of self-publishers
expressing themselves in a public medium which crosses international
boundaries and distributes their publications to a potential audience of
tens of millions?

***

the lawyer's son,

HooN

ps - some good web points of reference:


http://www.cyberlibel.com/pandora.html

http://www.steelhector.com/Briefings/WebSite_LibelandSlander.htm

http://www.kbs.citri.edu.au/law/defame.html

http://www.urich.edu/~jolt/v2i1/caden_lucas.html

http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:43:23 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: New list for discussion of Jungian Psychology
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter, HooN, JoAnne, all ...

I just received an e-mail message from Matther Clapp announcing the
re-birth of Jung-Psych at 11:20 am today.  I subscribed within minutes
of the announcement and received confirmation of this subscription at
11:39 am.  I then sent a request for membership data and found that
there were 37 participants in this list as of 11:40 am.  Interesting ...
I am led to believe that Marshall subscribed for most of these people
(do-able with majordomo and listserv servers).

Robert

Here is the announcement:

*******************************************************

There is a new home for moderated Jungian psychology discussion!

To subscribe to the new list, simply send the following command to
<majordomo@springpub.com>:

subscribe jung-psych

If you have any questions about the new list, or if you are having
trouble accessing it, please email <marshall@springpub.com>

Thank you.

--
Marshall Pahl
Assistant Editor
Spring Publications

http://www.springpub.com
marshall@springpub.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:42:18 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Libel and Email [longer than long]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

HooN,

Wow!  That was impressive and VERY enlightening.  I think I might
consider selling my computer and becoming a monk with a vow of silence.

Seriously, these potential threats to lawsuit could serve to gag, to
neuterize all debate.  No wonder the Jungian community is in such a
quandry.  It appears to me that the general nature of the community is
conservative and unwilling to risk in the outer world probably because
so much energy is needed for their navigations through the inner world.

Walter, how does this information impact on you and your sense of
liability for the words of others here in this unmoderated environment
that you host?  I think of areas of special conflict which have involved
Wilbur, JoAnne, Julienne, and others at times.  Is there a growing
apprehension which brings forth the thought of retreat?

I think that this is a very important concept to discuss.  It does touch
on many of the dialogues of our PSYBER-L past which talk of roles, use
of power, conflict, lurking, etc.

I look forward to the continued discussion.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:38:59 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Libel and Email [longer than long]
In-Reply-To:  <35423C9A.FE2@cybersurf.net>
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HooN, Robert, All,

> Wow!  That was impressive and VERY enlightening.  I think I might
> consider selling my computer and becoming a monk with a vow of silence.

Certainly is ... I still have to do the work on it ... just got up after a
wonderful late birthday party last night (Dan's) and have a day of house &
family ahead. day ahead!  Look forward to some in depth study of the legal
stuff.

> Walter, how does this information impact on you and your sense of
> liability for the words of others here in this unmoderated environment
> that you host?  I think of areas of special conflict which have involved
> Wilbur, JoAnne, Julienne, and others at times.  Is there a growing
> apprehension which brings forth the thought of retreat?

Not so far ... not at all.  Though I still need to read Hoons post which I
merely skimmed.  I have an attitude in my f2f work, that I simply do what I
think is right & what feels right and not to worry about any legal stuff.  I
will do what I think is right ... it would be hard to stop me.  The
complexity occurs when the people hosting a list, like Lsoft do here for a
fee, were to be implicated as utterly innocent and impartial people doing a
good job ... that would concern me.


> I think that this is a very important concept to discuss.  It does touch
> on many of the dialogues of our PSYBER-L past which talk of roles, use
> of power, conflict, lurking, etc.
>
> I look forward to the continued discussion.


So do I and will be on to it soon.


Robert, I take it you are not continuing with your Jung plan?  How is that
for you?  I think it is great that you tested the water, got involved and I
imagine learnt a lot in a few days!

Soon,


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 22:25:58 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Libel and Email [longer than long]
In-Reply-To:  <35423C9A.FE2@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:42 PM 4/25/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>HooN,
>
>Wow!  That was impressive and VERY enlightening.  I think I might
>consider selling my computer and becoming a monk with a vow of silence.
>
>Seriously, these potential threats to lawsuit could serve to gag, to
>neuterize all debate.  No wonder the Jungian community is in such a
>quandry.  It appears to me that the general nature of the community is
>conservative and unwilling to risk in the outer world probably because
>so much energy is needed for their navigations through the inner world.
>
>Walter, how does this information impact on you and your sense of
>liability for the words of others here in this unmoderated environment
>that you host?  I think of areas of special conflict which have involved
>Wilbur, JoAnne, Julienne, and others at times.  Is there a growing
>apprehension which brings forth the thought of retreat?
>
>I think that this is a very important concept to discuss.  It does touch
>on many of the dialogues of our PSYBER-L past which talk of roles, use
>of power, conflict, lurking, etc.
>
>I look forward to the continued discussion.

Hi All,

I am sorry to be so vague, but I did hear somethig on the news in the last
24 hours saying some US court has ruled that the carrier is not liable for
what is said on any area of cyberspace. I think that doesn't protect
individuals, however - but I am not sure.  If I see the details later, I'll
forward
them.

I do know that we can sue each other - but, as Hoon said - if we have the
money. :)

Julienne

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:41:56 +1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Libel and Email [longer than long]
In-Reply-To:  <19980426022550.AAA19604@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julliene,

> I do know that we can sue each other - but, as Hoon said -
> if we have the money. :)

I wonder which laws apply when there are different countries involved?


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 22:45:53 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Libel and Email [longer than long]
In-Reply-To:  <000801bd70bc$e10c8aa0$540dd6cf@walterl.es.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 02:41 PM 4/26/98 +1200, Walter wrote:
>Julliene,
>
>> I do know that we can sue each other - but, as Hoon said -
>> if we have the money. :)
>
>I wonder which laws apply when there are different countries involved?

 I know that if I wanted to sue someone in Australia from the USA, all fees
for both my costs and the other side's would have to be sent to the court
in Australia first. The loser would have to pay all court costs and legal
fees for the other.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 03:40:10 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Libel and Email [longer than long]
In-Reply-To:  <35423C9A.FE2@cybersurf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>, on Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:42:18
-0600 you wrote:

>Walter, how does this information impact on you and your sense of
>liability for the words of others here in this unmoderated environment
>that you host?  I think of areas of special conflict which have involved
>Wilbur, JoAnne, Julienne, and others at times.  Is there a growing
>apprehension which brings forth the thought of retreat?

My first list, Freedom Astrology, is still unmoderated, still no lasting
problems on it, though spirited discussion is allowed.  I have no fears
about it.

Julienne has been having problems on ChaoS, not just with me, and her
compadre Kris unsubbed me and someone else without warning from her list,
after having quoted extensively from this list her "evidence" of my
unsuitability to a proper discussion.

None of the quotes bothered me, Kris, or Julienne, whoever is still here to
pay attention.  My own words are not at a problem for me.

>I think that this is a very important concept to discuss.  It does touch
>on many of the dialogues of our PSYBER-L past which talk of roles, use
>of power, conflict, lurking, etc.

It does.  That it occurred just now is quite interesting.  Synchronistic if
you will!

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:58:05 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Libel and Email [longer than long]
In-Reply-To:  <35709885.558133679@mail.qis.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

JoAnne writes,

>Julienne has been having problems on ChaoS, not just with me, and her
>compadre Kris unsubbed me and someone else without warning from her list,
>after having quoted extensively from this list her "evidence" of my
>unsuitability to a proper discussion.
>
>None of the quotes bothered me, Kris, or Julienne, whoever is still here to
>pay attention.  My own words are not at a problem for me.

I'm not sure what you wrote JoAnne has to do with libel and the internet,
but it does offer an opportunity to remark on the normal flow of primitive
action and response we are, most of us, prone to, at times, and try to make
a connection.

All sorts of verbal 'acting out' which may be characterized as accusatory,
vindictive, name calling, verbal abuse, promotion of falsehoods about a
person, etc. might, in fact, prove to be some sanctionable defamation.

Of course to gain proof one has to hire a lawyer and go into civil court
and make their case. Not necessarily successful lawsuits, but likely
harrassing lawsuits at a minimum since one would necessarily engage a
lawyer to defend their interests against the 'plaintiff'.

This isn't just an aspect of the internet, either. It's made more
interesting given the ways in which the internet is distinguished from
other media/mediums, but the fact is, given the structure of the law in the
United States, (for example,) we carry on our various social discourses in
a sea of slander, defamation and libel.

The principal inhibition is the cost of a frivolous lawsuit on one hand and
the thick skin of the mature person on the other...imo. In the United
States at least, it is very hard to elevate most primitive, in the
psychological sense, back-and-forth between private citizens into legal
matters. But, one could try.

here's a good ref using a hypothetical not unlike Psyber-L, but according
to United States Law: http://www.leepfrog.com/E-Law/E-Law/Part_V.html

***

Walter asked: I wonder which laws apply when there are different countries
involved?

"When an individual or company is libeled in a serious manner, it is likely
that the libeled individual will look to the courts for a remedy.
Individuals bringing suit for
libel will frequently find that being libeled on the Internet places them
into a unique position of being able to select the forum which suits them
most favorably. *When a
message is placed on a bulletin board on the Internet, each location that
accesses the message becomes a potential forum. As long as the
jurisdictional requirements for the
forum are met, the plaintiff can file suit. In result, any exercise of
legal jurisdiction and application of the different laws of potentially
many jurisdictions in a massive
network of constantly communicating computers spread among most of the
countries of the world creates an instant Conflict of Laws nightmare . . .
" (*Prepared Testimony of Anthony M. Rutkowski Executive Director, The
Internet Society Before the House Committee on Science Technology
Subcommittee Regarding the Internet and the Management of Objectionable
Materials*, Federal News Service, July 27, 1995.)

ref: http://wings.buffalo.edu/Complaw/CompLawPapers/holland.html

****

and, also from http://wings.buffalo.edu/Complaw/CompLawPapers/holland.html,
for Charles:

*The Forward Press, and Ian Walton who owns it,
Have sent the Poetry Society a writ
Saying *See you in court. We've been denigrated
By libel.* The society Q thus was stat-ed Q
Said we'll print your ballad, canto or roundelay,
Stanza, verse, georgic, rhyme or jingle, if you pay.
It called us *vanity press.* Are we one of those
Imprints that charge to publish epic verse and prose,
And bind them in a pricey, bad anthology
Of limp meter, dodderel and poetastry
Like this? To make it worse, the treacherous slander
Was on the Internet, for the world to ponder.
The Society said the *Poetry Police*
Should ban dodgy poets' contests designed to fleece
Authors, to whom a rosy future is hinted
If they buy the book in which their verse is printed.
That's not true of me, Walton cried. I'm a poet, too,
And have been judge for the Literary Review.
My firm gives work to fifty. Should I be besmirched
By a pasquinade so false and badly researched?
I seek damages for libel, aggravated,
And injunction for this smear to be abated.
The poetry group replied, *ought we to amend
Our views? the answer's no. Our lawyers will defend.*
(*A New Legal Chapter, in verse*, International Herald Tribune, January 31,
1996)

***

Regards to all!

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:18:35 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Thoughts and feelings about writing in Psyber-L
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Walter,

I was trying to get away from endless quoting when I wrote previously, but
perhaps that's not possible!


>> Surely the "core stuff" about creating psychological spaces on the net is
>> not a discussion about list owning, or about whether this list is a
>> cathedral or a bazaar.
>
>Core stuff if you ask me, though not "the" core stuff, which there probably
>isn't.

Well, okay, but what you actually said originally was:

>The difficulty I think I have had is that when I have *open* discussion
>about list owning ... the very core stuff about creating psychological
>spaces on the net I feel a lack of response ...

I read that, not unreasonably, as you saying that discussion about
list-owning was the very core stuff about creating psychological spaces on
the net. I'm quoting it now just  to point out that that was what I was
reacting to.

>> Sure, you can have clever, polite, safe discussions
>> about structural issues, but is this really the essential stuff of
>> psychological spaces?
>
>I dot see it as separate from the personal, or the more collective psyche.
>It does not feel more safe than other discussion to *me*, I think I have
>been saying that as I do it ... feeling quite vulnerable as I work on those
>issues.  I find there is a certain pain associated with creating something
>... yet I keep doing it.

I think there's a difference between talking about list-owning or, say, the
seven levels of psyberspace, and talking about the feelings that, for you,
surround talking about list-owning or the seven levels of psyberspace. If I
had responded to you by talking about list-owning, rather than keying into
your feelings about talking about list-owning, that would have been safer
ground, wouldn't it?

>It is core in the way that group therapists and therapists might
>discuss the way to work with the psyche, believe me the approach they have
>has a big impact.  I think that discussing the roles of leadership and
>structure in psyberspace is essential to the purpose of this list and
>comparing it to the role of the leadership and structure in software
>development is pertinent ...

Yes, I can step back and see this, coming from your list-owner and
therapist perspective, and I'm not disinterested myself, but I was reacting
more directly from a sense I had of imbalance in the list.

>I find there is a certain pain associated with creating something
>... yet I keep doing it.    Certainly feeling when there were flames that
>others expect me to put out and so on.

I'm not sure how these two sentences relate, Walter. Perhaps you're talking
about the ongoing creation of psyber-l as a process sometimes forged in
flames??

>I also hope that the reflections on
>the role of listowner -- and the associated questions are pertinent to us
>all & not just to me.

And also, in your original post, you wrote:

>I have some reluctance to be the "hub" ... keeping things going for the
>sake of it. I am also >perturbed that a pertinent discussion goes so quiet
>...

I suppose I am thinking that you weren't perturbed when another pertinent
discussion went quiet.

>> Do you really think the reason for the silence on
>> this list of late is because people won't talk with you about list owning?
>
>No.

So what do you see as the reason?

>I think it is mostly "embedded in the interactions".  Whether that is a
>breakdown or not depends on ones experience really ...

Your experience can't change whether or not it *is* a breakdown. Whether or
not you *see* it as a breakdown depends on your experience... What does
your experience lead you to conclude?

>I find I have filled
>the silence (in my head) with some yearning & wanting and my last email
>expressed some of that,

Your yearning and wanting is to build something that people will find
valuable, yes?

Your expression about filling the silence is interesting. Maybe I'm just
being perverse, but I could (in fact, did initially) read it as saying that
there's a silence about something in your mind that you fill with your
desire to talk about "the more cognitive stuff" (to borrow a quote from
your original post).

>Simon ... I
>recall your posts at the times when we saw it as a lake.  When I use the
>metaphor of Psybernet as a bazaar I am
>thinking more in terms of how the project evolves. Some people might be
>content to be here in the ... lake -- bazaar -- cathedral -- mall --
>fireside nook, I am at times but I also want to do more things like the
>DreamEvent ... I am planning another list ... how people are included in
>that, how I do that ... how others do that is addressed, but not answered in
>the Cathedral/Bazaar paper by Raymond.

and, from your original post:

>What I enjoyed about The Cathedral and the Bazaar of course is that I was
>reading Psybernet where he had FetchMail.  How can the principles of the
>Bazaar apply here in this project?  That question is utterly on topic for
>the experiential exploration of Psyberspace ...
>
>It is also about feedback and participation ... is this a bazaar or a
>cathedral, or none of the above?

Walter, I'm glad you still remember those posts. As for the bazaar, I see
your angle on it, relating to the larger Psybernet project. I suppose,
then, that Psyber-l would be one stall amid an array of stalls. When you
spoke about "here", and "this", I was thinking in terms of Psyber-L,
perhaps because Psybernet isn't in my consciousness to the degree that,
obviously, it's in yours.

>> Walter, this is maybe not what you expected, but it is anyway
>> some feedback and participation for you.
>
>It sure is, got a few things going ... how are you doing with this
>discussion?  I'm finding it ok.  The bit about self indulgence hurt ...
>touches a nerve about my involvement here ... other than that I feel ok
>about it.
>
>
>Walter

It's okay by me, and I'm glad you feel okay about it too. I hope you don't
mind s-l-o-w discussions though. I'm a slow writer, plus I have to spend a
lot of time on things that have nothing to do with (thinking about)
psychological issues. But these issues percolate away in the background,
nonetheless.

I think 'self-indulgence' is a narrower interpretation of what I said, but
I guess you've keyed into what 'self-absorbed' means for you. Personally I
don't think self-indulgence per se is anything to feel bad about, nor is
self-absorption for that matter; it's all a question of context and degree.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:55:22 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      does the shadow have a silly season; events on jung-psych
Comments: cc: NETDYNAM@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
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What follows was sent to Jung-psych@spring.com this a.m. I promised irony
to Psyber-L and it is irony you shoiuld have but you'll have to dig for it.

(It now is evidently the case that the threat of libel was a confabulation
of the facts, *which remain* murky. It is now possible to speculate that
the spurned contributions (due to threat of libel lawsuit,?!?) in fact
caused the contributor to threaten to sue a moderated list's sponsor to
have their posts posted. Or some third effect...who the hell knows? But who
does, ain't tellin'. Robert, do you know what actually happened?

I read the spurned contributions and they were not even a mild flame.

I'm sending this to Netdynam also.

HooN

***

I.

Let us imagine...

Introduce a well known icon of our century, his enthralling body of work,
his predecessors and their high minded social status; and the over-arching
extension of his and his predessors' work into a systematic psychology of
self-development with modernized overtones of a mystic nature; (simply
meant to characterize the direct apprehension of the truth using the
'wholistic' apprehensive apparatus,) and all of it ending up of terrific
interest intellectually but also all of it only *complete* in the
individual's experience of individuation. Oh, a spectre: that there not
only is antagonism due this grand scheme, but that a single person might
style his self it's principle antagonist.

Somehow that the grand scheme is totally discredited by the mainstream
scientific psychology, has in part been adopted by the wooliest proponents
of various effects said to take place on a 'cutting edge', and that, in
general, hermeneutic, phenomenological, self-referential, and experiential
approaches represent all that a statistical approach must necessarily
eschew, then what the heck is an antagonist left with?

Oh, this: that the grand scheme also proposes a vocation as an 'analyst'.
These analysts' professionalize and credential his or her self and seek
respectability within the social pecking order and do so by making a
connection between his or her therapeutic practice and the catagory called
the 'professional' and the 'therapeutic'. If this isn't horrifying enough,
the analysts root their sought-after respectability in the concept that the
factuality of the hermeneutic, phenomenological, self-referential, and
experiential approaches and especially the body of knowledge these
approaches (approached) have developed is sufficient to cause the
connections with the catagory of professional and therapeutic.

***

Let's introduce the layperson with an interest, no matter how incoate, in
aspects of this grand scheme. Such a person grows anxious, (perhaps,) or
perturbed, (perhaps,) or angry, (perhaps) by the continueing attempt on the
part of the antagonist to repeat the work of the discrediting, while
attacking the conceit of 'professionalism' (that is the pea under the
mattress for the antagonist,) and wonders out loud, among other things:
"Was the guy just having a bad air day?"

***

Does the Shadow have a silly season?

Is it the Shadow which puts a person at the meat counter to argue in favor
of vegetables?

What might we say, given the archetypal frame, of our willingness to
legitimize another person's feeling of persecution by making of it the
image of our own Shadow?

***
All,

Thanks both to Marshall and Robert for creating new spaces in the aftermath
of the mysterious events which suddenly caused the old list to end. (I
suppose I might deal with this metaphorically and note that the old list
died and was transmogrified into two lists! Perhaps the twofold lists are
evidence of the greater necessity today for conscious explorers to talk and
dance together.) I, for one, a longtime internaut and email list observer,
while recognizing the the kinds of necessity which require the promotion of
a moderator, feel moderation of list traffic is a conceit, especially so
with respect to the full flow of affect which Jung felt was, in its
entirety, worth acknowledging. imo

Anyway, we, for the time being, have it both ways now, including a forum to
send our rejected contributions to.

***

Since I have long been curious about the actual dynamics 'behind' email
lists, the recent events also disturbed me greatly, even as I must admit
that I know almost nothing about what *actually* happened except for some
posts sent back channel by Ashley, some responses by some others, and
Matthew's and Robert's announcements.

Get out the brooms and start sweeping? My own curiosity is piqued by
observing and participating in the deeper 'sweeps' of conscious and
unconscious enactment. I do wonder about the implications as they might be
interpreted using the Jungian model(s).

Is anybody else also curious in the same way about recent events?

====
====

II.

[deleted]

>I would prefer to be on a moderated list.
>Jungians have shadow problems, too.

This begs some questions.

First is the implication: 'Shadow Problems' must be moderated out of the
flow of the list, even if only for reasons of legal liability. Should it?
Is this the optimal attitude to have toward the Shadow's trace in our
behavior?

(Moderation may be necessary, although, I for one, think it favors a 'real
world' sense at the expense of our being able to learn what is the possible
value of our 'Jungian' Shadow Problem(s).) Of course this describes a
tension central to the entire enterprise, the departure from the
collective's considerations through the gap into our own individual, inner
work.  So, I wonder if this one list splitting into two might be
characterized as evidence of a list's "mid-life crisis"?

Do we integrate the "list Shadow" by moderating it out of the way? What
does it want, anyway?

If the moderator is to slice away the disruptions of the Shadow, is this
likely to be therapeutic or anti-therapeutic? (I know it may well be
practical in the 'legal sense'.)

***

(You think I go too far but I feel this is okay: to examine recent events
this way!) The confluence of the virtual, "without-the-body", reality of
the internet and things Jungian, greatly interests me.

Finally, what are some of your ideas about how an email list, i.e. a group
of persons, should optimally "in the psychological sense" deal with each of
our enacted Shadows, or, alternately, our worst and most primitive
behaviors and acts?

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:33:52 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: does the shadow have a silly season; events on jung-psych
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hoon, you raise issues which I was at a Jungian loss to articulate,
snip
>
>Does the Shadow have a silly season?
and does it have a sense of humor...seems not of those respondingreacting
to the shadow
>
>Is it the Shadow which puts a person at the meat counter to argue in favor
>of vegetables?
>
>What might we say, given the archetypal frame, of our willingness to
>legitimize another person's feeling of persecution by making of it the
>image of our own Shadow?
>
is this the same as charactureing as a strategy to de-legitimize a person
who is threatening to a group or person...I think of the attack on Dr. Jean
Houston by the Washington Post calling her assistance to Hillary Clinton a
seance whereby countries cancelled her appearance where she was working on
building learning communities...


>All,
>
>Thanks both to Marshall and Robert for creating new spaces in the aftermath
>of the mysterious events which suddenly caused the old list to end. (I
>suppose I might deal with this metaphorically and note that the old list
>died and was transmogrified into two lists! Perhaps the twofold lists are
>evidence of the greater necessity today for conscious explorers to talk and
>dance together.) I, for one, a longtime internaut and email list observer,
>while recognizing the the kinds of necessity which require the promotion of
>a moderator, feel moderation of list traffic is a conceit, especially so
>with respect to the full flow of affect which Jung felt was, in its
>entirety, worth acknowledging. imo
>
>Anyway, we, for the time being, have it both ways now, including a forum to
>send our rejected contributions to.

am I misapplying the concept of shadow by seeing the spliting off into two
groups, the spliting off of shadow from the "legitimate" body?
>

>Get out the brooms and start sweeping? My own curiosity is piqued by
>observing and participating in the deeper 'sweeps' of conscious and
>unconscious enactment. I do wonder about the implications as they might be
>interpreted using the Jungian model(s).
>
>Is anybody else also curious in the same way about recent events?

me too...feels like this has enormous implications from those of you
steeped in Jung...I've not reached even the wannabe level, but sense
something here worthwile...
>
snip
>>I would prefer to be on a moderated list.
>>Jungians have shadow problems, too.
>
>This begs some questions.
>
>First is the implication: 'Shadow Problems' must be moderated out of the
>flow of the list, even if only for reasons of legal liability. Should it?
>Is this the optimal attitude to have toward the Shadow's trace in our
>behavior?

seems ironic to me...is it possible for me to moderate between my shadow?
then where is the integration which I assume from what you have taught me,
Hoon, that integration is the objective.

>
>(Moderation may be necessary, although, I for one, think it favors a 'real
>world' sense at the expense of our being able to learn what is the possible
>value of our 'Jungian' Shadow Problem(s).) Of course this describes a
>tension central to the entire enterprise, the departure from the
>collective's considerations through the gap into our own individual, inner
>work.  So, I wonder if this one list splitting into two might be
>characterized as evidence of a list's "mid-life crisis"?
>
>Do we integrate the "list Shadow" by moderating it out of the way? What
>does it want, anyway?

to play to be acknowledged imo
>
>If the moderator is to slice away the disruptions of the Shadow, is this
>likely to be therapeutic or anti-therapeutic? (I know it may well be
>practical in the 'legal sense'.)

it puzzles me...could it be the US legal system is an exercise to legalize
away the collective societal Shadow? to give its citizenry due process
against the shadow

and yes what does it (Shadow) want anyway?
>
>***
>
>(You think I go too far but I feel this is okay: to examine recent events
>this way!) The confluence of the virtual, "without-the-body", reality of
>the internet and things Jungian, greatly interests me.

from my perspective, it emphasizes that which is often diluted by all the
"with body" of f2f...no place to hide...
>
>Finally, what are some of your ideas about how an email list, i.e. a group
>of persons, should optimally "in the psychological sense" deal with each of
>our enacted Shadows, or, alternately, our worst and most primitive
>behaviors and acts?
>
I was interested in this during my short time in my on-line PhD
program...in our case as we spent time in community and values and
assumptions were articulated, the psychological aspect of the interaction
(beyond the course work discourse) meaning the trust building, some balance
of civility and edge, as well as the individual owning their stuff and
aware of projections, learning was accomplished...which in another sense
meant integration or in the learning model called transformative
learning...and tho the recitivism rates were low, some still had to
leave...

Judith inching in
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:59:13 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: does the shadow have a silly season; events on jung-psych
In-Reply-To:  <v01550100b16a5b0f26d0@[207.54.181.41]>
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>>What might we say, given the archetypal frame, of our willingness to
>>legitimize another person's feeling of persecution by making of it the
>>image of our own Shadow?

This, what I wrote, is almost impossible to understand, as I reread it
myself. 8-(

***

Judith, all,

>is this the same as charactureing as a strategy to de-legitimize a person
>who is threatening to a group or person...

No, it wouldn't. As far as legitimizing another person's feeling
unconsciously, it works simply, for example: your expression of being
persecuted makes me feel persecuted by you. Straight forward enough
reprojection of my unconscious. This kind of pattern tends to lead to
intense loops of primitive action and reaction.

But the case of Jean Houston is worth examining. It seems the conflation of
seance with "active imagination" allowed the media (which represents back
to us our unconscious as much as it does our conscious,) to punish Jean
Houston for trucking in the low class combination of impovershment and the
sublime. Alas, they missed the point because the direct contact with a
spirit, ("seance" being in cultural terms an 'impovershed' or 'ignorant'
idea,) is not at all the same idea as actively imagining a dialogue with
your inner representation of the 'spirit' of a person.

I would suggest Jean Houston was punished as much for being bright,
articulate, legitimate, and taking her self seriously; being feminine,
being imaginative, and in total expressing a more threatening combination
of richness, ('knowledge',) and the sublime.

Of course, Judith, this is an esoteric way to view the whole thing!

***

>am I misapplying the concept of shadow by seeing the spliting off into two
>groups, the spliting off of shadow from the "legitimate" body?

The concept of Shadow is easy: disacknowledged parts of our self; stuff put
in the 'darkness' so we cannot see it. Collectively likewise:
disacknowledged parts of the collective and its historical behavior, etc.

I don't know how these disacknowledged parts will play out in either
Jungian email group. On one hand the moderated group acknowledges the play
of the Shadow by its 'suffering the moderation,' (as its moderator pointed
out today!) on the other hand, the unmoderated group may effect a greater
dynamicism because it is more unconscious; after all the Shadow is not only
an archetype but it is an aspect of all sorts of complexes.

***

>seems ironic to me...is it possible for me to moderate between my shadow?
>then where is the integration which I assume from what you have taught me,
>Hoon, that integration is the objective.

It's different in a group. In any group there are collective attitudes
which not only moderate but mediate. However those collective attitudes may
be largely unconscious too.

Integration is so difficult! I know what my Shadow's effects are, but then
the next moment I'm the addict gripped by the energies of the complex,
close to an automata. Paradoxically, the idea is not to get used to,
comfortable with the Shadow; integrating it is, above all, an ethical
development. Also, beyond the personal Shadow is the collective Shadow, an
even more terrible ethical development.

>it puzzles me...could it be the US legal system is an exercise to legalize
>away the collective societal Shadow? to give its citizenry due process
>against the shadow

That's an interesting speculation! Since the legal system is a
representation of collective attitudes, we might pursue this speculation
further Judith by noting distinctions this way: What is the stated
attitude; What attitude really happens? For example, we state that we will
rehabilitate our criminals, but, really, we punish them. (In fact, we send
our criminals into a system that is a finishing school for criminals.)

Crime drops statistically but our worst fear remains: crime!

***

>from my perspective, it emphasizes that which is often diluted by all the
>"with body" of f2f...no place to hide...

Not able to grok this perspective, yet.

>learning...and tho the recitivism rates were low, some still had to
>leave...
>
>Judith inching in

Even without the body: "who stays, weighs..."

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:11:40 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Subject:      shadow boxes
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Called to account back channel by several persons on the Jung-Psych list on
my 'ignorant handling' of the Shadow concept. Well, I never did say my
explorations were credible for anyone else! In any case, my response to one
of the commentators I'm forwarding to this list because the person coins a
term, "cyberspace shadow" which I think might be of interest. Here's the
context:

[snip]
>
>As many do I enjoy your posts. I also appreciate your patience with my
>rough approximations, even to the extent of clarifying my own sensemaking!
>
>I connect what a person has hidden from his or her self, the Shadow, with
>its enactment or primitive acting out simply through the mechanism of the
>complex. It is apparent to me that behavior formulated in part out of
>'motivations' which are unconcious, that we don't have an awareness of,
>may have an aspect of our disowned self. It is easy for me to term this an
>enactment. (But, then again, what's easy for me is to make all sorts of
>half formed and half witted and no doubt novel extensions when others are
>concerned with whether they are being subjected to blather.) :-)  I
>actually believe the connection between our primitive behavior and our
>disowned parts is of importance.
>
>Anyway..."to act out, as on a stage" is sometimes what it looks like to
>me, all this 'texting' back and forth in cyberspace.
>
>>Either way, what you're asking is how do we deal
>>with the personality unavailable to the medium, ie, the cyberspace shadow,
>>which is virtually everything you don't know about me except through what
>>you've read here.
>
>Now that is a really interesting concept, the cyberspace shadow! Not so
>much what is disowned, but simply what I cannot see, or is hidden away, or
>is unknown.
>
>One way to deal with it is to make up ideas, images, (a fantasy or
>projection?) and believe that it really is you. It seems to me that this
>response occurs naturally because my experience is, [snip], that most
>people do not rigorously carve out the distinction between what they know
>and do not know.
>
>***
>
>regards,
>
>HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:08:13 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: does the shadow have a silly season; events on jung-psych
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HooN,

I have read the post "silly albeit paranoid" and a nameless post (to
which I have since replied to on the JUNG-PSYCH.  I loved the "silly"
post for it's humour.  You asked:

> (It now is evidently the case that the threat of libel was a confabulation
> of the facts, *which remain* murky. It is now possible to speculate that
> the spurned contributions (due to threat of libel lawsuit,?!?) in fact
> caused the contributor to threaten to sue a moderated list's sponsor to
> have their posts posted. Or some third effect...who the hell knows? But who
> does, ain't tellin'. Robert, do you know what actually happened?

No, I don't ... and as you say, no one is talking.  I have engaged in
conversaton on-line with Richard Noll.  The conversation left me feeling
that he is not the boogey-man behind these list cyber-deaths.  He points
me in the direction of "participants on the list" who are "noted" and
respectable Jungians.  Similar conversations with Marshall Pahl,
list-owner of the new JUNG-PSYCH confirm what Richard Noll has told me.
Marshall did suggest that I should look into legal implications because
of the threats received by Matthew Clapp, threats he couldn't speak to
me about because of their confidential nature.

> I read the spurned contributions and they were not even a mild flame.

How did you do this if the contributions were spurned?  Which
contributions?

This becomes more interesting and interesting-er.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:17:42 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      [Fwd: Shadows and e-lists.]
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HooN, Judith, all

I am attaching my comments to HooN's original post at JUNG-PSYCH as this
list seems to be more active in dealing with this original post.  HooN,
I hope that you find the energy to bring your wit to the dialogues on
the JUNG list.  At last count, there are 35 members of JUNG and 87
members of JUNG-PSYCH.  As for message count, there have been 39 posts
to JUNG and 30 posts to JUNG-PSYCH (no, these are not all my posts on
the JUNG list ... I participate on both with equal abandon).

Robert

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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:52:25 -0600
From: Robert Longpre <odyssey@cybersurf.net>
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CC: hoon@apk.net
Subject: Shadows and e-lists.
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HooN ... ;)

I want to thank you for your kind affirmations regarding the creation of
spaces for continued dialogues which find C.G. Jung as catalyst.

> Thanks both to Marshall and Robert for creating new spaces in the aftermath
> of the mysterious events which suddenly caused the old list to end.

I have thought long and hard obout the rationale for maintaining a
second un-moderated list and find that perhaps both are indeed needed.
I hesitate to choose between the two approaches and so maintain both.
Is it truly necessary to need to have only one "right" path?  I have
heard somewhere that "all paths" lead to the same destination in the
end.  So, dear friend, I do not consider the model of moderation as
"conceit".  Rather, I see it as just another path which affords a sense
of temenos that is necessary for a good portion of the Jungian
community. Those who have a greater tolerance of mess can feel at home
with the un-moderated version.  For me, I feel that the chance of
obtaining gold from the alchemical process will be greater within the
messier framework.  After all, shit and urine were necessry components
of the alchemical processes of old.  And, if I'm not mistaken (some
reading and some experience as analysand) there is a lot of such similar
shit within the parallel alchemical processes found in Jungian analysis
and individuation ... the search for gold.

> Anyway, we, for the time being, have it both ways now, including a forum to
> send our rejected contributions to.

Now, there is a shadow dance!  Chaotic, unllinked dialogues ...
monologues???

> First is the implication: 'Shadow Problems' must be moderated out of the
> flow of the list, even if only for reasons of legal liability. Should it?
> Is this the optimal attitude to have toward the Shadow's trace in our
> behavior?

This is indeed a conceit (not yours, my dear HooN) to think that the
shadow, both personal and collective, could actually be moderated out of
any list.  Again, I suggest that it a matter of "container" of an
individual's sense of personal safety needs.  Moderation has a valid
role to play.  Cyberspace does have real world ties and is thus in some
way affected by that real world, especially in legal and moral ways.
There are courts of law which find too much time tied up in litigation
over suits of libel and defamation.  Suing is now considered a normal
option of dialogue.

> Do we integrate the "list Shadow" by moderating it out of the way? What
> does it want, anyway?

Sorry, but I can't see the possibility of moderating "out" any shadow.
Perhaps there can be an attempt to suppress aspects of the shadow.  But
like any act of repression, there will be an eruption at some weak
moment .... so far two lists have shown testimony to this.

> If the moderator is to slice away the disruptions of the Shadow, is this
> likely to be therapeutic or anti-therapeutic? (I know it may well be
> practical in the 'legal sense'.)

Is this a place of "therapy"?  I don't think so.  However, the
engagement in dialogue does provide its own therapeutic result in an
unintended manner.  The rationale for any group be it moderated or not
is to provide a forum for dialogue.  The closer the dialogue comes to
the Buberian concept of "I-Thou", the greater the therapeutic effect.
"Therapeutic effect" is not "therapy".  To engage in therapy, the
container must be even more hermetic ... one-to-one ... face-to-face ...
so that a true state of temenos can be created for the safe exploration
and meeting with the psyche.

I hope that I have not strayed too far from the thread of converse which
you have begun.

Robert G.L.


--------------3CFC4F934DFA--

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:02:37 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      For Jung's sake!
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Okay, folks, why the sudden splurging of jungstuff on psyber-l?

Yes, I know Jung is relevant to this list, yes I know there's an overlap of
subscribers, yes I know the baby jung lists are running around in a state
of newborn excitement. But I subbed to both lists and I can read 'em
'there' - as can others with sufficient interest, no doubt. It feels to me
like psyber-l is being colonised by posts/topics from other lists! I'm
interested in how this 'influx' might be grounded in psyber-l at present.

So why here, why now?

"I don't want a shallow answer, I want a shadow answer!"

Simon, curiouser and curiouser...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:06:33 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Conundrums
In-Reply-To:  <v04011703b16b02ec394a@[207.54.181.14]>
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Please somebody tell me
What it is I want?
What the hell am I looking for?
And where do I start?

Have any of you found *IT*?
Is *IT* peace of mind? Is *IT* love? Is *IT* Contentment* or is *IT*
fullfillment, or is *IT* all the above or more, or am I on the wrong track
entirely?

What stops the yearning? What stops the reaching into the dark and trying
to grasp faint rays of something you can't quite see but know exist?

HELP??

Love


Dolore

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 02:13:17 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Conundrums
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980429010633.007bfc10@easynet.co.uk>
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>Please somebody tell me
>What it is I want?
>What the hell am I looking for?
>And where do I start?
>
>Have any of you found *IT*?
>Is *IT* peace of mind? Is *IT* love? Is *IT* Contentment* or is *IT*
>fullfillment, or is *IT* all the above or more, or am I on the wrong track
>entirely?
>
>What stops the yearning? What stops the reaching into the dark and trying
>to grasp faint rays of something you can't quite see but know exist?
>
>HELP??
>
>Love
>
>
>Dolore

Hello Dolores,

The following is what I'm moved to write by your words...

Interpretation number one:

There is no *IT*

Everything follows from how you feel about yourself.
How you feel about yourself follows from everything.

Don't shut yourself off from the flow within and without!


Interpretation number two:

*From my experience*:

There are three elements needed in order to *move forward* (from and
through even the darkest times):

desperation
frustration
determination

The mix of these will vary over time, but you do need all three. They move
you forward in different ways at different times.

Desperation marks the starting point, the crisis point.
Frustration marks the awareness that there is *more* to you, to life, than
who and where you are at present.
Determination marks the strength of the soul.

I've seen people fall by the wayside because they haven't had all these
elements. As I write these words now, I think of someone who has walked
away from the challenges of his life because all he has is frustration,
neither desperation nor determination. I think of a very dear friend of
mine who has many troubles in her life at present, and I worry for her,
knowing that I can't make it all better, hoping that she has sufficient
determination and frustration to move beyond her desperation.

And as I think of her, I say again:

Everything follows from how you feel about yourself.
How you feel about yourself follows from everything.

with warmth,
Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:06:04 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: For Jung's sake!
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Simon, all,

Funny you should ask.

I can only speak for my own intention which is to not assume everybody here
is aware of the interesting events which took place recently to end one
Jung list and then to subsequently to birth two more. They are of interest
to me, as stated previously, as dynamical email events which involve the
supposedly psychologically minded, or at least to some extent, likeminded.

***

Not that everybody here should find any of it interesting. I leave it to
you...to resonate or freeze. :-)

As always, I post quite indulgently.

***

HooN


           \\\|///
         \\ ~   ~ //
          (  @ @  )
 -------oo00-(_)-00oo---------
|                             |
|     Stephen Calhoun         |
|       hoon@apk.net          |
| http://junior.apk.net/~hoon |
|                             |
 -----------------------------

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:20:11 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Conundrums
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Have any of you found *IT*?
>Is *IT* peace of mind? Is *IT* love? Is *IT* Contentment* or is *IT*
>fullfillment, or is *IT* all the above

Peace of mind...um, I found it but I lost it, again.
Love...surprisingly, get grabbed by it at odd moments, then poof!
Contentment...fairly close right now but not quite *it*.
Fullfillment...'cause I like music, I get it often.

Ummm (apparently) *It* is fleeting; and so am *I*.

***

My relation to *it* is extremely sloppy, immature, Dolores. Others have
been more precise:

"I will never be free from You As long as I live. Be satisfied with me,
Love, and I am satisfied."

(Rabia, ra)

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:34:45 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: For Jung's sake!
In-Reply-To:  <v04011700b16c48ab30d4@[207.54.181.72]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hoon,

I sense a tetchiness in your words, or maybe that's just me displacing my
own tetchiness onto you!

>I can only speak for my own intention which is to not assume everybody here
>is aware of the interesting events which took place recently to end one
>Jung list and then to subsequently to birth two more.

I should've made it clear that I subbed to both lists as a result of
reading about them *here*. And all right and proper that the events should
have been mentioned, the lists publicised. From there I went to the lists
with an awareness of the background, as I imagine others would have done if
sufficiently interested. That was that, but the posts continued *here*, and
it was that continuation that I was referring to when I mentioned
splurging. So, I have found that a bit irritating, but maybe that's my
problem, and I wouldn't dream of asking anyone to stop, I was just
expressing how it felt to me. I was also saying that I was interested in
the *why* as it relates to *here*, not to the other lists.

>They are of interest
>to me, as stated previously, as dynamical email events which involve the
>supposedly psychologically minded, or at least to some extent, likeminded.

Yes, and I have that interest, too (that's partly why I've read psyber-l
for so long!). So extend that beyond the jung lists to bring in psyber-l
and the dynamics *here*. Well, you don't have to, of course. I was just
raising that issue when I said I was interested in how the 'influx' of
posts relating to Jung/list issues might be grounded in psyber-l at
present.

>Not that everybody here should find any of it interesting. I leave it to
>you...to resonate or freeze. :-)

I'm coming out to play, but not in the way you might want!

>
>As always, I post quite indulgently.
>

And many a post of yours I have enjoyed and valued.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:46:37 -0700
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Jeffrey T. Guterman, Ph.D." <rational@GATE.NET>
Subject:      Mental Health Chase
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

MENTAL HEALTH CHASE

Anyone with a web site for mental health professionals and/or students is
invited to submit for consideration in the Mental Health Chase, a hybrid
between a web ring and a web site award.  You are encouraged to nominate
your site for consideration.  If you nominate your site (go to the URL
below), a decision will be made promptly.

Jeffrey T. Guterman, Ph.D.
Ringmaster, Mental Health Chase
http://www.gate.net/~rational/chase.html
rational@gate.net

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:13:34 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: For Jung's sake!
In-Reply-To:  <v0311071db16c4325d112@[195.200.17.146]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Hoon,
>
>I sense a tetchiness in your words, or maybe that's just me displacing my
>own tetchiness onto you!

[Probably from Middle English tache, teche, blemish, from Old French tache,
teche, from Vulgar Latin *tacca, from Gothic taikns, sign.

[snip]

>I'm coming out to play, but not in the way you might want!

It wouldn't be play then, (oh maybe it would!)

***

Simon, its okay to be irritated. :-)

Actually the whole jungbifurcationaffair reminds me of the Wilburdaze...so
there's that connection. But, as far as our august group here goes, the
'libel' discussion kind of ground down quickly, Walter has been quiet, I
confused my self and Judith, and its all part of this influx into my
mailbox, (in a manner of speaking). Note 'me' at the center of such
considerations. Oh well.

This strikes me as a valuable sentiment ("I was just expressing how it felt
to me. I was also saying that I was interested in the *why* as it relates
to *here*, not to the other lists.") for which I don't have a response
other than sometimes the 'action' on the four psycho lists I contribute and
participate and swim in start to run together, and I guess I should add,
this is just how I experience it, sometimes.

***

On the other hand, when you got a bunch of people working on writing the
code all together and apart at the same time...

So maybe I've just been helping to free up the source code!

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:03:21 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: does the shadow have a silly season; events on jung-psych
In-Reply-To:  <v04011703b16b02ec394a@[207.54.181.14]>
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Hi All,

HooN you wrote:

>>What might we say, given the archetypal frame, of our willingness to
>>legitimize another person's feeling of persecution by making of it the
>>image of our own Shadow?
>
>This, what I wrote, is almost impossible to understand, as I reread it
>myself. 8-(

I understand it,  8-)   ...

Why are we willing to see another's oppression
as a mirror of our own soul?

We might do it to empathise, or to learn more about ourselves.

~~~

HooN, Robert, Judith,

I am up to reading the posts to the point where HooN replies to
Judith ... what a rich discussion!  More posts have come in but
wanted to say one or two things before I read the rest ...

List Owning.
Hosting, leading (by whatever name) is *difficult* and I need to
learn about it!  No wonder I have a list like this to learn what
I need to learn.

Civility and Shadow.
This takes me back to the flames of last year.  It is interesting
to look at these questions on other lists and in general & I hope
we can look at our ways of dealing with that.  I had some
stubborn ideas on it!  I see a paradox:  The shadow is often not
civil, to face the Shadow requires civility.  HooN has asked the
question but I want to put it again in my words:

In a list which aims at good conversation, fun, sharing knowledge
and a sense of community "civility" is royalty.  Is it different
in an *experiential* psychological list?

Moderation
Ah! How that is linked to civility which avoids extremes of
shadow and light. All things in moderation!

There is more to moderation than pre reading the posts.  There is
the option of "administrative moderation of one participant."
There is the option of excluding someone from the list.  There is
the option of closing the list altogether.  I am inclined to
think the answer is not in the technical way it is setup but in
the quality of the life that is fostered here that determines the
moderation and (or) maximisation that occurs.

All of these questions are relevant to the other lists ... and
here!


Walter.


___________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:03:26 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Conundrums
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Dolores,

What cry for help that is!  I recall your phrase:  I love the
smell of burning email in the morning.  Your cry is like one
might hear on a battle field.  I saw that Simon moved towards you
in the midst of the battle and that there might be some comfort
there (I hope so) and that the battle rages on ... I think of all
this Jung stuff as a battle ... especially when i hear your cry.
I think the discussion has been quite civil!  Perhaps it is not
as civilian as it might look.

Perhaps your cry echoes Judith's question:  What does the Shadow
want?

It echoes a cry in me ...

>What stops the yearning? What stops the reaching into the dark and trying
>to grasp faint rays of something you can't quite see but know exist?

It never stops for me ... it seems like an endless quest ... and
hurts in its own unique way ... a need.  There is a desire that
motivates me to be here to persevere with this strange Psyber-L!

My hunch, request, hope ... is that the two or three interwoven
threads here, right now are all about the same "shadow answer"
that Simon mentions ... at one *extreme* Dolores is your search
for ... love? meaning? peace?  at the other perhaps is HooN's
longer than long legal post ... all about the same thing. How
many steps are there between us when we are at those extremities?

Lets walk them!

Walter



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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:26:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: For Jung's sake!
In-Reply-To:  <v0311071ab16c1c4bab0d@[195.200.17.146]>
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Simon you wrote:

>Okay, folks, why the sudden splurging of jungstuff on psyber-l?

>So why here, why now?
>
>"I don't want a shallow answer, I want a shadow answer!"

It is all about us, just easier to talk about others.

Not to say that we should not do this "analysis" ... to do it
fits with our umbrella:  the *experiential* study of the
psychology of cyberspace.  I'd say the discussion is about as
topical as we can get.  The two baby lists might look at the
psychology of their development but they are not explicitly set
up for that ... do either of them have depth self analysis in the
charter?  I doubt it ... Jung was just not into groups.  Is
*Experiential* in their prime directive?

As many of us are subbed to all these lists to share our
*experience* here seems right.

Of course the varieties of tetchieness *belong* here too!  That
is about us in another way.

There is a synchronicity in all of this too.  Before the closure
and bifurcation of the lists we were talking about *ownership* of
software including the secessions from hand to hand via the
owners.  At least we had links posted here to articles on all
that which i devoured!

There is something trying to tell us something!

> What stops the reaching into the dark and trying
> to grasp faint rays of something you can't quite
> see but know exist?


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:18:30 -0400
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From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: Conundrums
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Dolores wrote:

> What stops the yearning? What stops the reaching into the dark and trying
> to grasp faint rays of something you can't quite see but know exist?

Only despair stops the seeking.... and despair is  a destination, not a
journey.

Religion, love, science, sex, drugs, friendships are only frail talismans we
clutch in the night to ward off the ghosts.

"It just is."

Be well Dolores.

...Jim

The quote is from Van Morrison.

> HELP??
>
> Love
>
> Dolore
>
> _______________________________________________________________
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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:10:31 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: does the shadow have a silly season; events on jung-psych
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Walter,

Much interesting stuff from you in this and your other two posts. I like
the process of synthesis going on here.

I did just want to pick out the following:

>I see a paradox:  The shadow is often not
>civil, to face the Shadow requires civility.

How to face the Shadow without falling into it... I think this requires
self-respect, an ability to love oneself (not in a narcissistic way!), an
ability to accept the shadowside as part of yourself and feel okay about
that... Perhaps, a sense of responsibility to yourself tempered by a sense
of responsibility to others...

>HooN has asked the
>question but I want to put it again in my words:
>
>In a list which aims at good conversation, fun, sharing knowledge
>and a sense of community "civility" is royalty.  Is it different
>in an *experiential* psychological list?

Yes! I am very wary of elevating civility to this position of royalty that
you talk about. For me that brings up issues of class and deference (but
then I am British!). 'Civility' is a very middle-class value. As an imposed
cultural value it's an effective way of suppressing proper expression of
feelings; it's also an effective way of keeping the inferior 'peasant
classes' in their place (don't forget to doff your hat on the way out!).

I also question that a sense of community can be forged only through
civility. Look at the 'Wilburdaze', to use HooN's witty turn of phrase.
Psyber-l came through that, stronger I think...

If anything, a surfeit of civility works against a sense of community.
Again I bring up the matter of balance.

>Moderation
>Ah! How that is linked to civility which avoids extremes of
>shadow and light. All things in moderation!

Walter, do you really want to smooth everything out?

Of course, I'm being very civil here! Maybe that is my conditioning...

I value honest expression over civility. That's not to say honest
expression can't be civil (I *feel* that I'm being honest in my talking
here now), just that it *needn't* be.

I also think that honest expression has a built-in 'self-correction'. Not
self-censorship! A return to inner balance maybe...

Also, honest expression is about owning your feelings... (gawd, I'm
starting to sound like a new age 'guru'... <cringe>). How can I put that
another way?! Perhaps: honest expression is about being honest *with*
yourself as well as *about* yourself...

Simon

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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:49:27 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: does the shadow have a silly season; events on jung-psych
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Simon,
lots resonnated with me as we continue this multifaceted exploration
you wrote:
>
>>I see a paradox:  The shadow is often not
>>civil, to face the Shadow requires civility.
>
>How to face the Shadow without falling into it... I think this requires
>self-respect, an ability to love oneself (not in a narcissistic way!), an
>ability to accept the shadowside as part of yourself and feel okay about
>that... Perhaps, a sense of responsibility to yourself tempered by a sense
>of responsibility to others...

exactly...tempered with a sense of humor;) For me in learning here from the
Jungian process, what you express has to do with being awake or and I
shudder to use this word conscious...

>>HooN has asked the
>>question but I want to put it again in my words:
>>
>>In a list which aims at good conversation, fun, sharing knowledge
>>and a sense of community "civility" is royalty.  Is it different
>>in an *experiential* psychological list?
>
>Yes! I am very wary of elevating civility to this position of royalty that
>you talk about. For me that brings up issues of class and deference (but
>then I am British!). 'Civility' is a very middle-class value. As an imposed
>cultural value it's an effective way of suppressing proper expression of
>feelings; it's also an effective way of keeping the inferior 'peasant
>classes' in their place (don't forget to doff your hat on the way out!).
>
>I also question that a sense of community can be forged only through
>civility. Look at the 'Wilburdaze', to use HooN's witty turn of phrase.
>Psyber-l came through that, stronger I think...

yes, I used the word civility not out of my own value system but out of
others who have been uncomfortable with my communication aesthic...because
my area of interest is learning and learning models and processes, I think
of the interactions as moving from discussion andor debate to
dialogue...and in dialogue ala David Bohm there is messiness and civility
is not inferred...in debatediscussion there is an agreed to assumption and
form as I've experienced in here in the US...and for me it requires being
willing to stay in the uncomfortableness to get to the stronger sense of
connection

>I value honest expression over civility. That's not to say honest
>expression can't be civil (I *feel* that I'm being honest in my talking
>here now), just that it *needn't* be.

me too...and just to toss in a little gender for some spice here, there is
a sense of relationship from the feminine perspective which often is about
maintaining relationship, meaning underlying an exchange there is an
intention to createmaintain the relationship...which at an extreme becomes
codependancy...
>
>I also think that honest expression has a built-in 'self-correction'. Not
>self-censorship! A return to inner balance maybe...

maybe...I wonder about one's preferred beingness... one's way of being and
how this is expressed in exchanges...I once worked with a sales manager who
loved to wrestle with the prospect...until he cried uncle and bought...not
my preferred way of selling...just wondering where this falls into the
mix...wrestling my shadow down:)
>
>Also, honest expression is about owning your feelings... (gawd, I'm
>starting to sound like a new age 'guru'... <cringe>). How can I put that
>another way?! Perhaps: honest expression is about being honest *with*
>yourself as well as *about* yourself...

and for me this requires awakeness and a process of being which one is
aware of...there is much I experience as transitional (moving out of do I
dare use the word paradigm;) in where we have been and what is opening
ahead and certainly recognizing the Shadow and the archetypal experience
moves me beyond the rightwrong model

Judith with so much to ponder about over this mornings soontobe cappacino
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:00:41 -0400
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Wow! Delores...
A mentor from years ago taught me to trust the process... and life to me
more and more is the mystery...not being glib here...may I offer you
something that resonates with me by Richard Moss

Enlightenment is faith.
Faith usually means
that you can take a series of beliefs
and you can hold onto them
and that's your faith.

That's all about fear.

Real faith is
that this entity, this organism,
in the midst of intense feeling,
stays

All our work is about that
not how to get away
but how to stay.

The more I stay the more I learn the more connection I am having with me
the less I am in the yearning...

Judith staying

>Please somebody tell me
>What it is I want?
>What the hell am I looking for?
>And where do I start?
>
>Have any of you found *IT*?
>Is *IT* peace of mind? Is *IT* love? Is *IT* Contentment* or is *IT*
>fullfillment, or is *IT* all the above or more, or am I on the wrong track
>entirely?
>
>What stops the yearning? What stops the reaching into the dark and trying
>to grasp faint rays of something you can't quite see but know exist?
>
>HELP??
>
>Love
>
>
>Dolore

>_______________________________________________________________
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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:14:06 -0400
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Subject:      Re: For Jung's sake!
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Simon, Hoon,

>
>>I can only speak for my own intention which is to not assume everybody here
>>is aware of the interesting events which took place recently to end one
>>Jung list and then to subsequently to birth two more.
>
>I should've made it clear that I subbed to both lists as a result of
>reading about them *here*. And all right and proper that the events should
>have been mentioned, the lists publicised. From there I went to the lists
>with an awareness of the background, as I imagine others would have done if
>sufficiently interested. That was that, but the posts continued *here*, and
>it was that continuation that I was referring to when I mentioned
>splurging. So, I have found that a bit irritating, but maybe that's my
>problem, and I wouldn't dream of asking anyone to stop, I was just
>expressing how it felt to me. I was also saying that I was interested in
>the *why* as it relates to *here*, not to the other lists.
>
>>They are of interest
>>to me, as stated previously, as dynamical email events which involve the
>>supposedly psychologically minded, or at least to some extent, likeminded.
>
>Simon:Yes, and I have that interest, too (that's partly why I've read psyber-l
>for so long!). So extend that beyond the jung lists to bring in psyber-l
>and the dynamics *here*. Well, you don't have to, of course. I was just
>raising that issue when I said I was interested in how the 'influx' of
>posts relating to Jung/list issues might be grounded in psyber-l at
>present.

For me it means that there is content to play with, meaning a thread of
ideas which brings me out of the shadows (sorry I couldn't help my fingers)
to interact...In the interest of psyber-l as an exploraction, there is
talking about it and then there is doing it...so it seems to me there is
relevance...in the past I have noticed the silence is often an indication
that there is nothing going on that has *grabbed* someone's interest...this
mysterious event which I have no relation to is interesting to explore and
thus...we have a flurry of posts which have bifracated and created meaning
to each of us as we are...

Judith into this exploraction
>

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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:18:16 -0400
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Walter you wrote
>Moderation
Ah! How that is linked to civility which avoids extremes of
shadow and light. All things in moderation!>

And there there is moderating the moderation! Glad I don't have that job...;)

Judith having fun

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Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 01:27:40 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: does the shadow have a silly season; events on jung-psych
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Simon,

> Much interesting stuff from you in this and your other two posts. I like
> the process of synthesis going on here.

Thanks, I am enjoying this ... I am glad you like it, you are putting in
some good questions and prods!

> How to face the Shadow without falling into it... I think this requires
> self-respect, an ability to love oneself (not in a narcissistic way!), an
> ability to accept the shadowside as part of yourself and feel okay about
> that... Perhaps, a sense of responsibility to yourself tempered by a sense
> of responsibility to others...

Have I written here how a friend summed up psychotherapy to me the other
day:  Facing the Shadow.  & what is the Shadow?  That which we do not wish
to be.  (I think she was quoting Jung verbatim I'm not sure.) All that fits
well with what I do all day with people ... I can see how courageously
people face this deepest shameful stuff *without* self respect or love ...
or rather these qualities come through in the moment of facing, it is a damn
hard thing to do.

In a psychodrama the stage is created as a separate space for the psyche to
have its manifestation.  Here we can enact the most foul stuff ... I have
seen (and been involved in the full enactment of) hell as well as hell on
earth.  The *containment* makes it within the bounds of responsibility.  If
someone needs to cathart and blaspheme they do it on the stage.  It works
well ... but sometimes it can dilute the venom that is bubbling directly
between people.  The psychodramatic enactment robs us of the *uncivil*
pleasure of projecting it all over the place off the stage ... just as well
...

In this lists there is not that separation ... most of the shadow stuff is
projected directly onto others in the list.  And now from list to list!  You
have to love it!  A psychotherapist is trained to work with those
projections ... welcome them really.  We have supervision for when they
hurt.

~~~

Am I drifting?

~~~

> If anything, a surfeit of civility works against a sense of community.
> Again I bring up the matter of balance.

A surfeit might work against the presence of the psyche ...

I had a glimpse then of the list being able to contain, without a stage, the
eruption of the Shadow.  Holding it as it were.  Holding each other really.
I cant quite grasp it ... (there it is again Dolores ... just out of reach).

~~~

> >Moderation
> >Ah! How that is linked to civility which avoids extremes of
> >shadow and light. All things in moderation!
>
> Walter, do you really want to smooth everything out?

You misread me here I think.  My exclamation is about the layering of
connections.  Moderation and civility and he use of the word in the software
here.  I was valuing the extremes.  The excentric.  It is difficult to talk
about.

I'd like to see us work smoothly ... perhaps adeptly with the Shadow ...
Surfing not drowning in the waves, even crashing many times to catch a good
one!

You go on to mention honesty.  Definitely.

~~~

To pick up on this:

> I also question that a sense of community can be forged only through
> civility. Look at the 'Wilburdaze', to use HooN's witty turn of phrase.
> Psyber-l came through that, stronger I think...

I'm no sure about that ... I am pleased you think so.  If so there was a
price with some good people leaving.  I know I have made a step in
understanding the role I am in here ... but still learning!


Walter

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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:22:36 -0600
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Simon,

The sun is pouring in the window as I sit down to re-connect with
PSYBER-L this early Wednesday morning (it isn't 8:00 am yet as I write
this).  I have sent my morning e-mail to Maureen and am now ready to
join the dialogues that began here yesterday evening.

It's been a busy time for me.  The process of being a Jungian analysand
is a tiring one.  I find myself needing to take "long" walks through
parks and along river banks in order to touch the outer world after
spending much of the day embroiled in activity with an inner world.
And, this inner activity involves the trio of lists - PSYBER-L, JUNG,
and JUNG-PSYCH - as well as dreamwork, reading, painting, and becoming
re-aquainted with my guitar.

> Okay, folks, why the sudden splurging of jungstuff on psyber-l?

For me, there is a strange thing happening here.  I have found several
of you listening on the JUNG list and that has made me feel good.  In a
way, I sense approved and validated by those who I have "known" (in a
Psyberian/Cyberian way).  The dialogue of legal liability (HooN), the
dialogue of architecture (Walter), the dialogue of civility (Susan,
Julienne, JoAnne, and others) -- all these touch and shape me as I
navigate through this new list.  And, I wonder at the "why?" of my
action to host this list.

Simon, you pose a good question.  I can only speak for myself and admit
that the real parent of this new JUNG group is PSYBER-L and not
JUNG-PSY.  Perhaps this is part of my rite-of-passage as I move to
integrate back into the mainstream.  The analyst and I are considering
the topic of re-integration back to my home, community, and workplace
even though that is at least two months away.  For me, PSYBER-L is the
safest place to speak ... strange, as this is a place filled with
shadows and silences.

> It feels to me
> like psyber-l is being colonised by posts/topics from other lists! I'm
> interested in how this 'influx' might be grounded in psyber-l at present.

Strange how I didn't feel this. But, reading your words, I begin to
understand how this appears.  Stranger still to me is that this "other
list dialogue" (which now includes you) feels so right here rather than
on the other list.  Though a number of this group has subscribed, the
fact is this place is cyber-home.  For me it's like a number of us have
gone to a social event in the larger community and returned home to talk
about the social event.

> So why here, why now?

I think its because the talks of shadows, structure, and relation are
exactly the same themes that we have been wrestling with for a long,
long, time.

Robert

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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:02:55 -0600
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Dolores,

How do I respond to such a deep inner/outer plaint?

> Please somebody tell me
> What it is I want?
> What the hell am I looking for?
> And where do I start?

Here I am in a city where I know no one, wandering strange streets
between analytic sessions, trying to understand what it is that keeps me
here while I paint and read and write.  I don't know what I want, but I
do know that the wanting is persistent and loud and angry and deep ...
still no answer ...
I walk many kilometres each day in search, looking, and I do this
without knowing what I am looking for.  This journey/searching/looking
is a rushing blindly forth.  I am amazed at how apt my e-mail address is
for this -- odyssey -- a wandering, apparently lost, subject to the
vagaries of the gods ... Where?  I hope in the "questioning" the
"questing".

> Have any of you found *IT*?

If I knew what this IT was that I have committed myself to discovering
perhaps I might one day find it -- but for now?  All I have found is the
questing itself.

> Is *IT* peace of mind? Is *IT* love? Is *IT* Contentment* or is *IT*
> fullfillment, or is *IT* all the above or more

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yesssss .... I think.  I have told a friend recently
that it was wrestling with God within this psychic structure of "self".
I really don't have a clue, Dolores.  I am a poor judge of anything
other than the fact that I know so little and yearn to learn so much.

> What stops the yearning? What stops the reaching into the dark and trying
> to grasp faint rays of something you can't quite see but know exist?

Quitting and accepting defeat, taking a job that mirrors a soul in
hibernation, drink that for brief moments fogs the brain enough to think
the problem has disappeared.  Instant nirvana in drugs .... masks that
cut deep ... acts of self-abandonment ...  And, as I say this, I rush
back to the questing, the yearning knowing that I am truly on the right
and only journey that matters.

Robert

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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:10:21 -0600
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Subject:      Re: does the shadow have a silly season; events on jung-psych
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Simon, Walter, Judith, HooN, and all,

This is good!  Like Walter, I'm having fun :)  Simon, in reference to
Walter's words:

W> >I see a paradox:  The shadow is often not
W> >civil, to face the Shadow requires civility.

You comment and offer:

S> How to face the Shadow without falling into it... I think this
requires
S> self-respect, an ability to love oneself (not in a narcissistic
way!), an
S> ability to accept the shadowside as part of yourself and feel okay
about
S> that... Perhaps, a sense of responsibility to yourself tempered by a
sense
S> of responsibility to others...

I struggle with the shadow as well and most times for me this shadow
dancing is wrapped in civility.  A good example of that would be my
reply to the list-owner of JUNG-PSYCH this morning on the JUNG list.
Rather than just let the words go unsaid, the shadow found a voice ...
complexes were triggered in both of us and we both replied reactively,
defensively, offensively.

So how to face this s-s-sh-sh-adowww?  It would be easy to attack and to
hell with the cost when victory is all that matters (Pyrrhic victory).
In fact, there is a blood rush that is intoxicating in the clash or
arms, a sense of being "fully alive" ... caught in the complex.   But,
being civilised, I "moderate" and re-think my emotional reaction and try
to understand what has been triggered and why.  Prodded by the shadow I
allow a small "civilised" version of the shadow a voice.  Now, I sit
back and wonder about the whole scenario.  Obviously, I have a long
journey yet to make if I am ever to be an integrated, individuated
being.

Simon, I do like your recipe for facing the shadow ... now, to somehow
integrate some or all of this ...

Robert

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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:15:09 -0400
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Subject:      Re: does the shadow have a silly season; events on jung-psych
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Yes, I'm having fun too guys ;)
Robert I'm interested in your process in the experience you articulate here

>Simon, Walter, Judith, HooN, and all,
>
>This is good!  Like Walter, I'm having fun :)  Simon, in reference to
>Walter's words:
>
>Simon:snip Perhaps, a sense of responsibility to yourself tempered by a
>sense
>S> of responsibility to others...
>
Robert you respond:>I struggle with the shadow as well and most times for
me this shadow
>dancing is wrapped in civility.  A good example of that would be my
>reply to the list-owner of JUNG-PSYCH this morning on the JUNG list.
>Rather than just let the words go unsaid, the shadow found a voice ...
>complexes were triggered in both of us and we both replied reactively,
>defensively, offensively.>

so my question is if one is aware that the shadow exists, is there a
suspension of that knowing which results in triggering, if one is aware of
shadow and one holds this in awakeness then how does the triggering occur?
Maybe this is a question of the participantobserver...is the observer
always active...I think about acting...I immerse myself in the character,
but there is always that little birdy on my shoulder monitoring...so what
gets suspended in order for one to react and post reaction see the shadow?
confusing to me...maybe its great fun to play as you say below...
is the following part of your response answering my questions?
>
>So how to face this s-s-sh-sh-adowww?  It would be easy to attack and to
>hell with the cost when victory is all that matters (Pyrrhic victory).
>In fact, there is a blood rush that is intoxicating in the clash or
>arms, a sense of being "fully alive" ... caught in the complex.   But,
>being civilised, I "moderate" and re-think my emotional reaction and try
>to understand what has been triggered and why.  Prodded by the shadow I
>allow a small "civilised" version of the shadow a voice.  Now, I sit
>back and wonder about the whole scenario.  Obviously, I have a long
>journey yet to make if I am ever to be an integrated, individuated
>being.

Judith
>_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:04:19 -0500
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>Dolores,
>
>How do I respond to such a deep inner/outer plaint?
>
>> Please somebody tell me
>> What it is I want?
>> What the hell am I looking for?
>> And where do I start?

>  And, as I say this, I rush
>back to the questing, the yearning knowing that I am truly on the right
>and only journey that matters.
>
>Robert

What you two write now is all the most beautiful right stuff to read,
Robert and Dolores. How much the courage to ask brings...

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:40:17 EDT
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Dolore wrote:
 Please somebody tell me
 What it is I want?
 What the hell am I looking for?
 And where do I start?

 Have any of you found *IT*?
 Is *IT* peace of mind? Is *IT* love? Is *IT* Contentment* or is *IT*
 fullfillment, or is *IT* all the above or more, or am I on the wrong track
 entirely?

 What stops the yearning? What stops the reaching into the dark and trying
 to grasp faint rays of something you can't quite see but know exist?

 Yes, I have found IT, at least I've found brief fleeting glimpses of IT.
When you find IT, IT doesn't last for long.  Why?  Something about how we are
made.  (I plan to ask the Creator, why we're made this way).  But I can tell
you when you find IT, IT doesn't last long.  Then you have to go looking for
IT again.  IT is everything you wrote and more.  I have found IT inside, in
meditation, in prayer, in listening to other people, in the ripples in a body
of water, in clouds, when I stop to smell the roses, in spiritual writings,
even in fairy tales.  One of the few places I have not found IT is in church!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:10:13 -0400
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From:         Moonasylum <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Subject:      Re: Conundrums
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Dolores, Hoon, Robert, all ..

As I read this thread, I am powerfully reminded of words that have long
held much meaning for me; I share them here, they seem to fit:

Do not seek the answers, which cannot be given you because you would not be
    able to live them.  And the point is to live everything.  Live the
questions     now.  Perhaps you will then gradually, without noticing it,
live along some         distant day into the answer.

            Rainer Maria Rilke


usually silent, but always present

Marie


At 05:04 PM 4/29/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Dolores,
>>
>>How do I respond to such a deep inner/outer plaint?
>>
>>> Please somebody tell me
>>> What it is I want?
>>> What the hell am I looking for?
>>> And where do I start?
>
>>  And, as I say this, I rush
>>back to the questing, the yearning knowing that I am truly on the right
>>and only journey that matters.
>>
>>Robert
>
>What you two write now is all the most beautiful right stuff to read,
>Robert and Dolores. How much the courage to ask brings...
>
>***
>
>HooN
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 02:47:35 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: *IT* -replies
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I looked at all the answers, it helped,alot.

It hurts..it does indeed, it is like a kind of grief, to be cut off from
the source, that is how it feels..cut off from what I want..but still not
sure what that want is.
It is in music..but only briefly, only the right music at the right time,
like good sex at the right time, sometimes its there too. But they are only
appetisers, that leave you starving for the main course, enough to whett
the appetite, never enough to sate it.
It is from the self, I believe that, but how do you go about loving
yourself, isn't that loving your ego, and if ego is self, and your loving
it, isn't that a bad thing?
It is desperation, it is determination, it is frustration, but its
frustration for the half glimpses, the yearning.
It is not in loving another, or to be found in a man. I tried that, it
didn't work, it was another appetiser. Maybe I loved the wrong men, and I'm
on the right track, just up the wrong garden path.

It was not a cry for help in the midst of a battle, it was more of a quiet
reflective moment in a tranquil library. I ask , is this all there is for
me, and I reply I am more than this, but there is something lacking, what
is that. What is it that agitates me, won't let me rest, what is the quest
when you can't see the grail. I'm perterbed in my library of thought,
reflectively watching the dust fall as it it caught in the sunlight, and
through the silence as Librarys are, came a host of voices, and I didn't
feel quite so alone in the quest for *IT*. There were others in the library
seeking the same information. Maybe they were reading different books, but
still
we had the same thing in common, all looking for the same answer to the
same common question.

Robert, feels it too, I felt it with him in the streets he wanders. He is
right about the drugs, but I don't need drugs, or drink though I can see
why others do. I don't blame them, providing they don't hurt others.
Anything to dull the pain and the need. Yet, to find it I have to have my
wits about me, so I'll take the pain and go search, rather than numb it and
stay static, clouded, protected. It hurts like needles, but it has to, or
I'd ignore it, I could blanket myself and cover myself in counterpanes of
many things, avoid the stabbing with selective layers but I want to throw
the bedclothes off, go find it, whatever it is, that calls me with its
needle sharpness, pricks me with its pins, and screams Come find me.

I have, no faith, and I won't find *IT* in church..is that why somebody
said, it was the opiate of the masses. I see why, a million yearnings
quietened by the narcotic belief in something better come the time to pop
your clogs. Not I, maybe I am wrong then, maybe that might work. Maybe I
should suddenly get religion. I'm more likely to found my own..the religion
of the church of the somewhat deranged.

I have at odd times had the strangest cravings to wander round Tibet or
similar and go bang prayer bowls or wheels or bells or whatever it is you
bang,  and eat rice and drink water out of crystal clear streams with my
hands. I think I am too clogged up with life, with London, with the
material, I need a bowl of rice and a long drink of clear cold water and
the sound of bhuddists chanting through the mountain mists. I need some
calm, some quiet, some simplicity. I probably wouldn't find *It* in Tibet,
but it seems like a good place to start.

Judith, staying, I'm not sure I understand,  and I am searching, and maybe
I should stop searching and let it come to me, but nothing ever came to me,
that I didn't have to go looking for first. Nobody ever gave me anything, I
didn't first have to grab for with my own two hands.

And not courage sc..the more I learn the more questions I have, for I have
given up being a fool by not asking, by not questioning, for risking to
appear foolish, that is the ultimate foolishness. Its a fool that remains
quiet, its never a foolish thing to ask about what you don't understand.
Maybe if I hadn't kept quiet at school, I might have understood more about
maths now. That was foolishness. Courage is what I hope will help me deal
with the answer to what *IT* is. I have a horrid feeling, should I ever
find *IT* It will change my life and thats when I will most need courage.

I am still foolish, but slightly wiser.

Love

Dolores

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:51:58 -0400
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D-
>Judith, staying, I'm not sure I understand,  and I am searching, and maybe
>I should stop searching and let it come to me, but nothing ever came to me,
>that I didn't have to go looking for first. Nobody ever gave me anything, I
>didn't first have to grab for with my own two hands.
>
exactly...I like to think of it as *finding* instead of searching for
searching holds an element of not finding...searching then puts it always
out there someplace...not that searching is *bad* just different than
finding...seems to me you are finding...may not fulfill the yearning...

My experience with yearning is that when I turn it from outward to inward,
yearning changes, the sensation is shifted somehow...when I was grappling
with yearning for someone no longer in my life, I was directed to take that
yearning for another and project it onto myself...sort of as a
fulfillment...subtle shifts occurred...when I looked again it wasn't the
person I was missing, it was the opportunity to express my loving...so is
there an element of missing the opportunity whatever *the* may mean to
you...just a thot...and yes for me it happens in the music often and I
remind myself to stay in the moment and be filled by it...

 I have a horrid feeling, should I ever
>find *IT* It will change my life and thats when I will most need courage.
>
Ah, well, yes, when one senses the call that is coming...for me it was
often *kicking and screaming*
>I am still foolish, but slightly wiser.
>
And delightfully so since I last visited this space a year ago
>Love
>
>Dolores
>
Blessings,
Judith off to make paper
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:34:56 -0500
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Subject:      *IT* Dolores parsed
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>from the self,

>believe that

>loving

>loving loving

>*it* isn't a bad thing

>Nobody gave

>my own two hands.

>not courage

>Courage help me

>answer everfind

>change

>life

>will

>courage

>foolishwiser.

>Love

***

hoon

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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:33:41 -0600
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Marie,

Thank you for these words of Rilke ... They are the words of his that I
treasure th most.  Strange how often I have used these words in
situation of being counsellor ... Their appropriateness for me is all
the more appropriate.

Robert

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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:41:21 -0600
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JGerh50699,

I want to thank you for your response even though the response was to
Dolores and not to me.

>  Yes, I have found IT, at least I've found brief fleeting glimpses of IT.
> When you find IT, IT doesn't last for long.  Why?  Something about how we are
> made.  (I plan to ask the Creator, why we're made this way).  But I can tell
> you when you find IT, IT doesn't last long.  Then you have to go looking for
> IT again.  IT is everything you wrote and more.  I have found IT inside, in
> meditation, in prayer, in listening to other people, in the ripples in a body
> of water, in clouds, when I stop to smell the roses, in spiritual writings,
> even in fairy tales.  One of the few places I have not found IT is in church!

I don't ever think I will find IT anywhere but within me.  As soon as I
try to "objectify" IT, it disappears making me wonder if I really sensed
IT's presence. So, I make the journey through inner space, a kind of
cyberspace, a dis-embodied space that is populated with a cast of many
characters.  There I sense an approaching of IT that defies being
defined .... I have felt this though I am existing in an outer world ...
going inside and touching, wrestling with the possibility of IT ... I
have even done this in a church ... I have done it in a bar ... I have
done this wandering through fields of browning sun-dried grasses ... and
I have done this in my sleep at night as I dream ... a dance with IT as
phantom.

Robert
>
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Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:03:20 +0100
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Walter, Judith, Dolores, Robert, HooN, all (phew! a gathering list and a
list gathering...),

In lieu of actually getting round to responding to people, perhaps: I feel
a need to name the people who have written here so wonderfully, who I've
felt such a strong connection with, all through the medium of words and yet
so much more. Not an externally imposed need, but an 'internally emerging'
need...

I'm amazed at the past couple or so days on this list. It feels quite
overpowering to me, like a powerful force moving through me, in a positive
way. And then there is the need to find balance. Listening to oneself is
part of self-respect, isn't it? Listening to what you heart tells you,
listening to what your commonsense tells you, listening to what your body
tells you (Judith, I imagine you nodding and smiling at this), gathering a
sense of what feels right... Somehow I don't see that as selfish, or
egotistical. I think true listening, both inward and outward, moves beyond
the self...

In listening to other people more carefully, I find that I listen to myself
more carefully. In listening to myself more carefully, I find that I listen
to other people more carefully.


Walter,

You write very clearly about psychodrama and the stage. I understand the
importance of having a physical space designated as a stage, and the
function of containment that it provides. But there is nothing special or
valuable about that space in itself, is there? Rather the fact that a group
of people decide to make that space special and valuable to them is what's
special and valuable. That's the core, isn't it? And isn't it a decision
about honesty? Does the space create the honesty, or does the honesty
create the space?



Following on from your discussion of the stage and containment in
psychodrama, you wrote:

>In this lists there is not that separation ... most of the shadow stuff is
>projected directly onto others in the list.  And now from list to list!  You
>have to love it!  A psychotherapist is trained to work with those
>projections ... welcome them really.  We have supervision for when they
>hurt.
>
>~~~
>
>Am I drifting?
>
>~~~
>
>> If anything, a surfeit of civility works against a sense of community.
>> Again I bring up the matter of balance.
>
>A surfeit might work against the presence of the psyche ...
>
>I had a glimpse then of the list being able to contain, without a stage, the
>eruption of the Shadow.  Holding it as it were.  Holding each other really.
>I cant quite grasp it ... (there it is again Dolores ... just out of reach).

This seems important! Containment without a stage? Or maybe you're just not
seeing the stage.

Why did you think you were drifting? Actually, I liked that you put that
in, I'm not sure why. It was like a small 'anchoring' pause...

>> >Moderation
>> >Ah! How that is linked to civility which avoids extremes of
>> >shadow and light. All things in moderation!
>>
>> Walter, do you really want to smooth everything out?
>
>You misread me here I think.  My exclamation is about the layering of
>connections.  Moderation and civility and he use of the word in the software
>here.  I was valuing the extremes.  The excentric.  It is difficult to talk
>about.

You are right! I did misread you. I took your words at face value - maybe
because I think of you as someone who wants to smooth everything out!
Perhaps I should let go of that...

You do go on to say:
>I'd like to see us work smoothly ... perhaps adeptly with the Shadow ...

Um, yes, adeptly seems better...! Maybe I just have something against that
word 'smooth' and its various derivatives... I'm thinking now of a smooth
surface hiding churning depths... and of throwing a pebble into a lake to
watch the ripples expand... Which, of course, was where I came in all those
months ago!

>Surfing not drowning in the waves, even crashing many times to catch a good
>one!

Crashing on jagged edges?

"Surfing not drowning" eh... Yes, that's where the listening comes in.


Finally, I can't resist 'throwing in' this provocative quote, chanced upon
on another list:


 "The human being of the West has abandoned being human and has
     turned himself into an individual... community has died in them."
        -- Nicolas Aguilar Sayritupac, Aymara Indian, Lake Titicaca,
                                   Bolivia


Simon

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Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:43:15 -0700
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Dolores,


What is it????....Rumi said it best....we pass along a past post to others.



>>>
>>>We all need poetry, we all need to be reminded of our great
potential....so we share this today.
>>>
>>>LIKE THIS....
>>>
>>>If anyone asks you
>>>how the perfect satisfaction
>>>of all our sexual wanting
>>>will look, lift your face
>>>and say,
>>>
>>>     LIKE THIS
>>>
>>>When someone mentions the gracefulness
>>>of the nightsky, climb up on the roof
>>>and dance and say,
>>>
>>>     LIKE THIS
>>>
>>>If anyone wants to know what "spirit" is
>>>of what "God's frangrance" means
>>>lean your head toward him or her
>>>Keep your face there close
>>>
>>>      LIKE THIS
>>>
>>>When someone quotes the old poetic image
>>>about clouds gradually uncovering the moon,
>>>slowly loosen knot by knot the strings
>>>of your robe.
>>>
>>>       LIKE THIS?
>>>
>>>If anyone wonders how Jesus raised the dead,
>>>don't try to explain the miracle.
>>>Kiss me on the lips.
>>>
>>>       LIKE THIS. LIKE THIS
>>>
>>>When someone asks what it means
>>>to "die for love", point
>>>
>>>         HERE
>>>
>>>If someone asks how tall I am, frown
>>>and measure with your fingers the space
>>>between the creases on your forehead,
>>>
>>>          THIS TALL
>>>
>>>When lovers moan,
>>>they're telling our story,
>>>
>>>           LIKE THIS
>>>
>>>I am a sky where spirits live.
>>>Stare into this deepening blue,
>>>while the breeze says a secret.
>>>
>>>             LIKE THIS
>>>
>>>When someone asks what there is to do.
>>>light the candle in his hand.
>>>
>>>              LIKE THIS.
>>>
>>>                      --------Rumi
>>>
>
>>
>>the simplest acts reveal our granduer, just recognize it..just be it..be
grand  everyday and everynight.
>>
>>Love,
>>
>>Helen & Peter
>>>
>>
>

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Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:09:52 -0400
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Simon I related to this given that I am reading The Gethsemani Encounter,
an interfaith dialogue with Buddahists and Catholics
<I'm amazed at the past couple or so days on this list. It feels quite
overpowering to me, like a powerful force moving through me, in a positive
way. And then there is the need to find balance. Listening to oneself is
part of self-respect, isn't it? Listening to what you heart tells you,
listening to what your commonsense tells you, listening to what your body
tells you (Judith, I imagine you nodding and smiling at this), gathering a
sense of what feels right... Somehow I don't see that as selfish, or
egotistical. I think true listening, both inward and outward, moves beyond
the self...>

tho admittedly this is delicate, I am moved to Thomas Merton's description
of a conference in Calcutta in 1968...

*The deepest level of communication is not communication, but communion. It
is wordless. It is beyond words, and it is beyond speech, and it is beyond
concept...not that we discover a new unity. We discover an older unity. My
dear brothers, we are already one. But we imagine that we are not. And what
we have to recover is our original unity. What we have to be is what we
are.*

Blessings to all,
Judith in reverence

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