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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Feb 1998 02:21:26 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: First Morning ... a wounded healer's journey
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Robert,

I have read your new dark journey poems.  How to respond to a poem?  With a
poem?  That might be the best way, but I don't have poems brewing up.  You
speak of loss of hope and terror.  I also see that your words hang here in
silence as if to isolate you more.  Do others read your poems?  To what
extent are we here the exclusive silent witnesses of this journey?

You sound angry -- with tears of protest.

It seems that you might be angry that you are not heard in Psyber-L ?  I
imagine not being heard, feeling alone is at the root of your wounds.  I
guess you would like this Psyber-L to be some form of companion on this
journey.  I wonder if it can meet your hopes?  I can imagine it failing you
utterly, and that is not my hope, of course, but my fear.

I know that i will be here and continue our earlier discussions, and that
in the back of my mind is all the history of our adventures here.  I have a
sense that you hear and feel any silence here very strongly and painfully.

Hmmm,  am i at all in tune with you?  If my attempt to tune in fails, I
will need to own these projections in some way.

Walter

___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:20:11 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: a few feelings
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Robert,

  Re: a few feelings
  Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:19:12 -0600

you wrote:

> I hear
> silence and know that the silence comes from me ... unspoken narratives
> waiting for an audience, a listener who will relflect mirror-like the
> fact that I in some way exist in more than just my head ... thinking
> about quantity of posts ... silence can exist in a flood of words when
> those words don't do their job of bridging the spaces that separate ...

I have found this post from before christmas, and i see that today,
responding to your poems, I have revisited this discussion.



>      Yes, I can see that f2f life has its rhythms that affect the things
> we do here, the words we speak here, the hopes that we have for this
> dialogue, and the limitations ...  You speak of not being "ready" and I
> wonder if one is ever ready for mucking around in the swamplands; there
> is always something that needs doing, something that needs watching,
> something that needs presence ... and the inner workings begin to ache
> with greater intensity until there is no holding back the vomiting ...

True, but it is February and the year is almost back to normal.  Now
any lack of readiness at least does not have the summer madness to
contend with as well.

> > I particularly feel bad about the 'container" files as i think of them
> > when the list goes quiet . . . then i feel I have made a poor
> > container . . .
>
>      when the list goes quiet ... when Walter goes quiet ... when the
> dreams go unanswered/unexamined ... when waiting becomes a means of
> surviving sane ...  The container is Walter not PSYBER-L for Walter.  It
> is Robert for Robert ... the dialogue fills an ever changing container
> made through the blending of psyche in dialogue ... the container isn't
> poor nor great ... it just is

Hmmm.  True, in a *ultimate* sort of way.  More immediately I want
to be able to discriminate between a well structured container, and
a messy fragmentary one -- one with a clear purpose, and one without
one.  On the whole this i think Psyber-l is not too bad.  I feel
better about it than I did.  I have just started another list.  It
has a similar sort of focus to Psyber-L but it is only for people
who also meet face to face. I have set that one up with closed
archives, and with Subscription= Owner.  Believe me that "space" has
a totally different feel to it.

>      Yes ... the same silence is happening in DNET where I am
> list-owner.  That container needs to be remade in its entirety ... I
> have changed too much and it has become sterile ... I think in many ways
> I have found the need not to "own" ...

How is that list going?


Walter


___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:43:41 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: a few feelings
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Robert,

  Re: a few feelings
  Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:16:11 -0600

you wrote:

>      This dialogue becomes more and more important to me.  I feel as
> though on the brink of a descent/ascent ... that has been a large part
> of the delay in response of the past week ... so much to speak, but dare
> I say the words that not only you may hear, but that I might hear as
> well and then have to admit rather than deny?

Were you warming up to the journey you are now on?

>      The "good days" are just days that are less bad, less chaotic, less
> feeling oriented ... a retreat into inner silence where even the
> questions become mute ... good days = lack of feelings = lack of
> confusion = lack of ...

No wonder you seem to be somehow better off in what might look like
a bad time.

I wrote, talking of my anima / animus type of polarity:
> > Remember you said a while back:  Where are the feelings?  I feel this
> > strongly, I also feel the reluctance to go into it more . . . with
> > attacks from both sides of the polarity:  it is too emotional, too
> > much like therapy online
>
>      Dare you?  Dare I? ... Is the movement of daring a movement away
> from checkmate? ...
>
> > and, from the other side it is too
> > intellectual, it is too analytical, too much caught up with alchemy
> > and Jung's ideas.  You see i can't win.
>
>      And to hold the tension (is it holding the tension, or is it
> "stuck") forces the unconscious to make the choices that seem to elude
> questions that hesitate to be asked ... winning?  ... avoiding
> life/decision/choice is losing ... living/choosing is the only
> alternative ...

Ah, holding the tension is *not* stuck, it is far more than that.
Simply jumping one way or the other to get out of the grip of the
tension, might look "functional" but it is an avoidance of sorts.
Choosing might then look like life but have death as a shadow.  Does
that make sense?  Is that what you were saying?


I wrote,
> > For me and i
> > feel confident in thinking for you, withdrawal and silence would be
> > the bad news.
>
>      Yes ...

I think I am back.  Life is hectic.  Look forward to hearing from
you.



Walter

___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:08:21 -0600
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From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Re: First Morning ... a wounded healer's journey
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Walter

> I have read your new dark journey poems.  How to respond to a poem?
> With a poem?  That might be the best way, but I don't have poems
> brewing up.

     That you read them and thought of a need to respond is the response
that is authentic.  I wrote the poems, these dark journey poems (by the
way, I wrote an introductory poem on December 15th, a prophetic poem
which begins the book which will encompass the journey, a book of poetry
and narrative links) as a means of stepping "into" myself, a change from
the normal intellectual viewing of self in a state of dissociation.  As
a result, I don't know if "response" to these is expected.  This feels
differently from past expectation.

> You speak of loss of hope and terror.  I also see that your words
> hang here in silence as if to isolate you more.  Do others read your
> poems?

     Yes, others do read them.  I belong to a small group of "healers"
who are facing their own wounds.  As well, there have been a few who
have journeyed off-list (back-channel) to speak with me of how my poems
ripple within them.  But for all these "other" witnesses of my journey,
this place is still where temenos feels strongest ... the container you
built, that I built, that others have shared in the building.

> You sound angry -- with tears of protest.

     Yes, (and I am smiling as I write this) I am angry and the tears
are real.  I seem to be kicking and screaming in protest as I'm being
dragged along this path of individuation.  This speaks to me of power
that exists outside of "self".  Jung speaks of a greater "SELF", that to
which we strive through transcending the lower "self".  I am angry that
I place all at risk in this blind venture to the unknown.  I am angry
because I touch others and they will be affected by the journey and the
transformation within me.  If I could have stopped the journey and
stayed in one place, that would have made all so much simpler and safer
for not just me, but for all who touch my world.  But, the journey
continues regardless of my willingness to participate.

> I guess you would like this Psyber-L to be some form of companion
> on this journey.  I wonder if it can meet your hopes?  I can imagine
> it failing you utterly, and that is not my hope, of course, but my
> fear.

     I think I have moved past some of this "need".  What are my hopes?
That I can share this with you in dialogue, that I share this with
Marie, Susan, HooN, Anita, and Charles even in silence.  And to others
who lurk and/or participate in my journey, I offer thanks for their
presence.  My real journey of course is not here, but in my f2f
dimension of presence.  This place is a place of mirroring and
monitoring, none the less real.

> I know that i will be here and continue our earlier discussions, and
> that in the back of my mind is all the history of our adventures
> here.  I have a sense that you hear and feel any silence here very
> strongly and painfully.

     I too am aware of earlier discussion, of history.  And, I am aware
of the movements occurring here, movements which feel good.  I am
learning patience for silence, learning how to stop measuring response
in terms of "time".  Notice that I had not commented upon the "silence"
here.  I do wonder if the poems reinforce the silence and I also wonder
if the dialogue "... a few feelings ..." does the same.  Are we, am I
creating a place of "listening"?

> Hmmm,  am i at all in tune with you?  If my attempt to tune in fails,
> I will need to own these projections in some way.

     As I respond to your posts, it is for you to decide.  I do sense a
harmony here, a true Psyberian Symphony (I wonder when I will write the
second movement?).

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:02:23 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: First Morning ... a wounded healer's journey
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At 02:21 AM 2/2/98 GMT, Walter wrote:
>Robert,
>
>I have read your new dark journey poems.  How to respond to a poem?  With a
>poem?  That might be the best way, but I don't have poems brewing up.  You
>speak of loss of hope and terror.  I also see that your words hang here in
>silence as if to isolate you more.  Do others read your poems?

I read.  I too don't know what to say, but realize I could at least
acknowledge that I have read.  I see you, Robert.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Feb 1998 07:54:32 -0600
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From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Re: First Morning ... a wounded healer's journey
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JoAnne

> I read.  I too don't know what to say, but realize I could at least
> acknowledge that I have read.  I see you, Robert.

     Merci, JoAnne.  When words are missing then to say more would not
do.  It is enough to know that contact has been made and that the words
did not fall into a cyberean black hole.

Robert

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Date:         Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:37:31 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: First Morning ... a wounded healer's journey
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Robert,

>  I do wonder if the poems reinforce the silence and I also wonder
> if the dialogue "... a few feelings ..." does the same.  Are we, am I
> creating a place of "listening"

With silence you never know, yet in another way ... if i trust my
"knowing" it is not your poems or our dialogue that reinforce the
silence.

The silence of a mall when the shops are shut.  If tomorrow we
opened a new "event" with a purpose and a life and a bit of
initiative it would flood with words.

However, I am in the mood for wandering here, in the emptiness and
the dark.  Listening.



Walter



___________________________________________________________
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Date:         Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:47:03 -0600
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From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Re: First Morning ... a wounded healer's journey
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Walter and all,

     I appreciate your response which picked up the concern that I had
expressed:

> >  I do wonder if the poems reinforce the silence and I also wonder
> > if the dialogue "... a few feelings ..." does the same.  Are we,
> > am I creating a place of "listening"

Your response:

> With silence you never know, yet in another way ... if i trust my
> "knowing" it is not your poems or our dialogue that reinforce the
> silence.

did help to ease my concern and re-engage here in the on-going dialogue.

You also spoke:

> However, I am in the mood for wandering here, in the emptiness and
> the dark.  Listening.

This matches my mood.  I will wander here speaking and listening.

Robert

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Date:         Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:18:59 -0600
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From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Dancing on the head of a pin - A wounded healer's journey
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Dancing on the head of a pin
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Dancing on the edge of a fine line
Holding to the tension of the pull =

Coming from the hells that yawn on either side
Precariously balanced on this thin trail
Leading to an unknown destiny
A path too narrow for ego
Holding so tightly it feels like being stuck.

The razor's edge is pocked with pits
A landscape that seems endless
A lunar horizon, a dreamscape
Of nightmare, of promise, and of vision
Sleep is ravaged, populated with shadows
Hungry, yearning, and lonely.

Motion, any motion is wanted
Affirming this reality
Even the motion of falling.

Robert Longpr=E9                =A9     February 3, 1998

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Date:         Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:49:14 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Re: a few feelings
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Walter,

     I have skipped much of the early part of this post to respond to
the following thoughts.  Those which I by passed seemed self-contained
and not needing response.  Continuing the dialogue of "container":

> More immediately I want
> to be able to discriminate between a well structured container, and
> a messy fragmentary one -- one with a clear purpose, and one without
> one.  On the whole this i think Psyber-l is not too bad.  I feel
> better about it than I did.

I wonder about this "structuring" of this container.  Somehow, I think
the container has its own notion of self that goes beyond any sense of
"control".  How much control is there for the listowner when questions
are met unanswered, in guiding the thematic threads?  Providing the
place that becomes a container is a heavy enough task.  And in this,
Walter, you have done well in my opinion.

> I have just started another list.  It
> has a similar sort of focus to Psyber-L but it is only for people
> who also meet face to face. I have set that one up with closed
> archives, and with Subscription= Owner.  Believe me that "space" has
> a totally different feel to it.

It would be interesting to learn about your feelings about these
differences as time passes.  Do you still feel the same primacy with
PSYBER-L?  Even though I post much more frequently on other lists, this
is a special place for me, a place that goes beyond its definition.

     You ask about how my list, DNET, is going.  There is gentle
movement there, not total silence.  It almost appears to be a time of
meditation and quiet reflection.  I have found that more dialogue
happens back-channel than on the list.  The same sense of "temenos"
doesn't exist in that group as exists here for a few.  There has not
been the relation in "depth".  It appears that the list waits for me to
act as catalyst, as "Agent Provocateur".

the time for moving on is at hand,

Robert

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Date:         Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:54:15 -0800
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: First Morning ... a wounded healer's journey
MIME-Version: 1.0
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 Robert, Walter, JoAnne and all

    Not long ago(Wed, 7 Jan 1998), I subscribed to the Psyber-L as a
member.
So, I don't know well what was going on here, particularly between
Robert and Walter.

   I read Robert's poems and walter's posts.
I was confused by Robert's poems and his words..
"problems..horro..terror, ..tears...the darkness of night..shadow..."

    His poems recalled my past life to me.
when I was in the thirties, I went through the darkness of night in my
life.

    it is likely that I understand Robert's mind(wounded healer).
Of course, It may be my misunderstanding.

    Now, in the middle of the forties, I am comfortable.
Neverthless, sometimes, I am seized with horror and sorrow.
Further, in reality, I face all kinds of problems in my life.

  But I think that they are only small waves of the ocean.
Everyday, I am meditating on myself, everything around and inside me.
       (my body, my spirit, my behaviors, various objects...)
Of course, It's hard to recognize our existence as it is.
However, some day, it will be possible,
and then we shall be freed from the bonds and the darkness.

Robert.....

I wish your(or our) journey to end with joy and peace.
I am looking forward to your poems and other's posts(especially walter).
I will read it and think about it.

Silence is not the void, but the fullness.
 (Because I am poor in English, I can't express my ideas
fluently...so...)

meeseo

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Date:         Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:37:23 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Re: First Morning ... a wounded healer's journey
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meeseo,

     Welcome to PSYBER-L!  Thank you for your kind response.

> Not long ago(Wed, 7 Jan 1998), I subscribed to the Psyber-L as a
> member. So, I don't know well what was going on here, particularly
> between Robert and Walter.

I think that both Walter and I are trying to understand that as well (at
least that is my understanding/misunderstanding).  I find that this
place is forever changing, yet forever the same.  I liken this to
existing in a universe that is "fractal".  This place is hard to define.
Probably it is less than a place than it is a concept, an imaginal
dimension that is in many respects slightly unconscious.

> I read Robert's poems ... <snip> ...  His poems recalled my past
> life to me. when I was in the thirties, I went through the darkness
> of night in my life.

I would be interested in meeting you more fully here.  A reading of the
archives would give you a better sense of the people here.  And, it
would be very kind of you to speak more of yourself so that I may come
to know you a little more.  In this way, the dialogue can grow to
embrace you actively.

>     it is likely that I understand Robert's mind(wounded healer).

That is my hope.

>     Now, in the middle of the forties, I am comfortable.
> Neverthless, sometimes, I am seized with horror and sorrow.
> Further, in reality, I face all kinds of problems in my life.

Ah, that is the cost of being "alive".  Would you care to speak these
here and thus ease some of the "toxicity" of these horrors?

>   But I think that they are only small waves of the ocean.

The smallest wave has great meaning and great imapct on the eventual
story of life.

> I wish your(or our) journey to end with joy and peace.
> I am looking forward to your poems and other's posts(especially
> walter). I will read it and think about it.

This is the greatest compliment, to be read and thought of.  Thank you
Meeseo for this message.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Feb 1998 02:40:59 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Listowning
In-Reply-To:  <34D8E25A.4B2A@sk.sympatico.ca>
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Robert,

In "...a few feelings" you wrote:

> I wonder about this "structuring" of this container.  Somehow, I think
> the container has its own notion of self that goes beyond any sense of
> "control".

Yes.  As a teenager I wanted to be an architect.  I thought then of
it as primarily as the art of creating functional and aesthetic
design.  Later, a psychotherapist I realised the similarity in the
professions.  We create spaces and environments where there is the
possibility for the clients to go into their "own notion of self
that goes beyond any sense of "control".

I have a picture of the ruins of temenos, showing a circle of
columns.  Presumably our use of the word temenos as a sacred and
safe container links back to the architecture of that building.  It
must have created such a sense -- and yet who would think of the
architect as a control freak?

The list-owner creates the conserved files for the list INFO and
WELCOME, and perhaps the Web site that is the front door to the
list, or at least has the power over them, much in the way an
architect has over a building's design.  An architect can listen to
the client, and then build from that, from the people to the people,
as they said in marxist circles.  Thus the architect has some power,
but the people have more.  They will vandalise and vacate unlivable
unlovable apartments.  I have seen how people congregate on steps
and planting pots and never sit on the benches provided.  Never the
less I think architects can change patterns of communication, social
structures, lives.

Kate & I get on better at our holiday house, than at home, partly
because of the design of the place.

> Even though I post much more frequently on other lists, this
> is a special place for me, a place that goes beyond its definition.

The list-owner power here is only one factor of course.  The
traditions, and the actual specific people's contributions are
major.  No amount of house design could save a bad marriage, though
many have tried.  There are many factors which take us beyond the
definitions & the structures.  Marriage itself is a little like a
"list" in this way, and the marriage does not make for a good
relationship.  I don't think my recent rehash of the list's files
has had a big impact, but I do think they will in the very long
term.  They can also evolve of course, just like a building can
benefit from alterations.

> How much control is there for the listowner when questions
> are met unanswered, in guiding the thematic threads?

Now you are talking about a different realm of list-owning.  This is
the area where any of us can write "facilitative" posts.  I have
ceased to think of myself as having a special role here in this
list.

This is an area I am not quite at peace with.  Should someone at
least welcome people?  Be a Host?  I can see everytime someone subs
to the list, but I don't mention it -- I tend to think that is
right, for this list.  Charles on Magister-L gets an email from
those who sub, and he personally welcomes each new person.  I think
that is great too, but it is not my vision for Psyber-L, but more
for other associated lists.

> Providing the
> place that becomes a container is a heavy enough task.  And in this,
> Walter, you have done well in my opinion.

Thanks.

> > I have just started another list.  It
> > has a similar sort of focus to Psyber-L but it is only for people
> > who also meet face to face. I have set that one up with closed
> > archives, and with Subscription= Owner.  Believe me that "space" has
> > a totally different feel to it.
>
> It would be interesting to learn about your feelings about these
> differences as time passes.  Do you still feel the same primacy with
> PSYBER-L?

It is very new, but I will write about it here as we go.  Others
might do the same, I hope some will be attracted to Psyber-L.
Robert, my sense of "primacy" is to Psybernet and that includes its
various offshoots in my mind.  Hence I see the f2f group as one more
leaf in the Psybernet book.  It may well have some primacy . . . rl
has primacy, always.  But having the f2f group does not give me a
sense of Psyber-L being less important.  In fact I hope it is
enhanced by these new developments.

>      You ask about how my list, DNET, is going.  There is gentle
> movement there, not total silence.  It almost appears to be a time of
> meditation and quiet reflection.  I have found that more dialogue
> happens back-channel than on the list.  The same sense of "temenos"
> doesn't exist in that group as exists here for a few.  There has not
> been the relation in "depth".  It appears that the list waits for me to
> act as catalyst, as "Agent Provocateur".

What does DNET stand for?  You may have said but I don't recall.

BTW, how is the project with the avatars?



Walter
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Feb 1998 02:41:09 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: First Morning ... a wounded healer's journey
In-Reply-To:  <19980205065415.93.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com>
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mee-seo,

>     His poems recalled my past life to me.
> when I was in the thirties, I went through the darkness of night in my
> life.

I did too, but they were all the while strangely liberating.  In my
50s it is different.  There is a sense of having had the rebirth and
now being in this renewed life and needing to life in it rather than
rebirth out of it!  Hard work.


>  (Because I am poor in English, I can't express my ideas
> fluently...so...)

You do fine. Please feel free just to write posts full of english as
best you can.  Use words in your own language too, or whole posts.
There may well be others who can translate.  I can translate any
Dutch for example.  (But the Dutch usually speak English!)

Sometimes the words about the psyche in other languages give us a
new insight.

Can you say more of where you are from?


I am here in New Zealand, and in the middle of what i heard is the
hottest day since 1889.  What am i doing at the computer!  Actually
is lovely here in the shade, with the door open and a light breeze.

Walter
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:24:35 +0900
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         riger <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: First Morning ... a wounded healer's journey
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-kr
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 $)C
Rober and Water

I was very pleased to receive your posts.
Recently, I have had little time. It delayed sending e-mail to you.
    (I have to finish translating a book, and to present the results of
study in study group, etc. )

However, I send my e-mail because I think Water and Robert is waiting
for it.
Needless to say, It's only my feeling.

****************************
    Water

>I did too, but they were all the while strangely liberating.

   I also think so.

>Can you say more of where you are from?
>I am here in New Zealand,

I am from Seoul, in South Korea.

>and in the middle of what i heard is the
>hottest day since 1889.    What am i doing at the computer!    Actually
>is lovely here in the shade, with the door open and a light breeze.

Here, of course, it's winter according to the solar calendar.
   But, according to the lunar calendar, It's spring.. 98-2-4 is the first
day of spring.

I've just come from a walk in woods trails.
......full of whispering of small branches, bird's twittering, and
fallen leaves..

And now, outside the window, it is snowing heavily..It's spring snow.

>Sometimes the words about the psyche in other languages give us a
>new insight.

   I know it , but I think you can hardly find people who read the
sentences in Korean. I will try to write in English.
(a lot of wrong expressions, please read it carefully)
Thank you for your warm response.

   Meeseo

**********************************************

    Robert

> A reading of the archives would give you a better sense of the
> people here.

Thank you for your advice.
Yesterday, I read the archives a little, cf) a few feeling..brain and
mind, etc.
I was a bit surprised to read the topic "brain and mind"
   ...Troubles resulted from the difference of thoughts, beliefs.
   ...rejections...
   Of course, I think it's possible.

>I would be interested in meeting you more fully here.... And, it
>would be very kind of you to speak more of yourself so that I may come
>to know you a little more.    In this way, the dialogue can grow to
>embrace you actively.

Frankly speaking, I've never told anyone about myself, deeply.
So it might be hard to speak of myself, openly.
But I can tell you about my job, and my concern..etc.

My occupation is still a lecturer. Maybe, some day, I will quit it.
My major is Aesthetics.
I have studied Modern Art theory, the Aesthetics of Commodity, media and
art, etc.

Individually, I am interested in spiritual awakening. I pursue nirvana.
Recently, I have been interested in cyber-culture, cyber-art,
cyber-communication.
I had a dream to construct the cyberspace where many people would
communicate with each other and they would be spiritually awakened.
Needless to say, It was only a dream in my imagination.

Anyway, I navigated in internet and found Psyber-L, and HipBone
site(When I was young, I like reading Herman Hesse's novels). And I
subscribed to Psyber-L.

>The smallest wave has great meaning and great imapct on the eventual
>story of life.

   I know it, I undergone it.
   Nevertheless, finally, the small waves will disappear..
   Of course, the origin which provokes the small waves still remains.
            (=lack of love, hate, struggles for surviving)

   In fact, I sent my e-mail to you because I felt you were unhappy and
seized with sorrow.
I don't know you well, however, I think you might need a true(?) love.
I guess that your shadow in mind come from lonelinss, lack of love.....

Pardon me for obtruding. It's not a malicious intent. I am only anxious
about your sufferings.

I wish you to have a good journey.

Meeseo

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:36:42 +0900
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      I am sorry, Walter and Robert
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-kr
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 $)C
I am sorry.
I had little time, so I    hurried..
    misspelling..
..not Water but Walter
..not Rober but Robert..

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:34:45 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      "Seized with sorrow..." Was...wounded healer's journey
In-Reply-To:  <34DEF583.8DBE405E@yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 09:24 PM 2/9/98 +0900,  Meeseo wrote:
> $)C
>Rober and Water
>
>I was very pleased to receive your posts.
>Recently, I have had little time. It delayed sending e-mail to you.
>    (I have to finish translating a book, and to present the results of
>study in study group, etc. )
>
>However, I send my e-mail because I think Water and Robert is waiting
>for it.
>Needless to say, It's only my feeling.
>
>****************************
>    Water
I am from Seoul, in South Korea.

>Here, of course, it's winter according to the solar calendar.
>   But, according to the lunar calendar, It's spring.. 98-2-4 is the first
>day of spring.

Meeseo, I am interested in this.  Which seasonal calendar do you actually
follow? Both? And how does the lunar calendar actually impact on your life?

>>Sometimes the words about the psyche in other languages give us a
>>new insight.

This is true...both hearing people use the words in one's own language
"incorrectly" gives fresh insight, and the combinations of words being used
differently also helps us understand things from a fresh perspective.
Speaking a foreign language stimulates our thoughts and feelings, and even
our bodies, differently.

>    Robert

>Yesterday, I read the archives a little, cf) a few feeling..brain and
>mind, etc.
>I was a bit surprised to read the topic "brain and mind"
>   ...Troubles resulted from the difference of thoughts, beliefs.
>   ...rejections...   Of course, I think it's possible.

>Frankly speaking, I've never told anyone about myself, deeply.
>So it might be hard to speak of myself, openly.

Sometimes you don't have to speak about yourself...your words reveal you...
However, as you noted above,  not everyone hears each of us the same way,
or even sees our meaning.  The important thing is to remain open to each
other...

>Individually, I am interested in spiritual awakening. I pursue nirvana.
>Recently, I have been interested in cyber-culture, cyber-art,
>cyber-communication.
>I had a dream to construct the cyberspace where many people would
>communicate with each other and they would be spiritually awakened.
>Needless to say, It was only a dream in my imagination.

I think it does happen, Meeseo, in a way. Whenever we touch another person,
whether in "real" life, or cyberspace, we can grow spiritually.

>   In fact, I sent my e-mail to you because I felt you were unhappy and
>seized with sorrow.
>I don't know you well, however, I think you might need a true(?) love.
>I guess that your shadow in mind come from lonelinss, lack of love.....
>
>Pardon me for obtruding. It's not a malicious intent. I am only anxious
>about your sufferings.

Meeseo, I am very touched by your concern for Robert. This is part of the
spirituality of  cyberspace - that we can reach out to each from South
Korea to New Zealand to Canada to the United States, as though there were
no barriers of time or space or place. This is so extraordinary and wonderful.

Thank you for your care for Robert...it spreads to all of us.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:20:05 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Hello Meeseo
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Meeseo,

     I'm not overly concerned with spelling errors.  What I attend to
are the messages that are contained.  Often, spelling does not interfere
with the message intended.  Don't be overly concerned with these kind of
errors in working within a second language.  This concept of
communication across languages is the focus in a chapter I wrote for a
series of books about using Internet in the Kindergarten to Grade 12
educational domaine.  Forgive me if I post information about the chapter
(Volume Four in the series), but the notion of computer-mediated
communication is relevant, in my opinion, to the topic of psyche in
cyberspace.

-------------------------------

             WIRED TOGETHER: THE ONLINE CLASSROOM IN K-12
             Edited by Zane L. Berge and Mauri P. Collins

Volume 1: Perspectives and Instructional Design
Volume 2: Case Studies
Volume 3: Teacher Education and Professional Development
Volume 4: Writing, Reading and Language Acquisition
(Available in either cloth or paper, individually or as a set.)

A 4 volume set of books is announced by Hampton Press, Inc., 23
Broadway, Cresskill, New Jersey, 07626 USA Voice: 201-894-1686, FAX:
201-894-8732, Orders: 1-800-894-8955

-------------------------------------------

> I send my e-mail because I think Water and Robert is waiting
> for it.  Needless to say, It's only my feeling.

And, an intuition that has validity at least on my part.  Thank you for
noting this and responding to meet that wish.

     It was good to learn more about you and about your sensitivity to
the natural environment.

> I've just come from a walk in woods trails.
> ......full of whispering of small branches, bird's twittering, and
> fallen leaves..

     This brings to mind the world of haiku.  You evoke poetic thought
with your use of this "second" language, my friend.
> Frankly speaking, I've never told anyone about myself, deeply.
> So it might be hard to speak of myself, openly.
> But I can tell you about my job, and my concern..etc.

     This is a good place with which to begin the meeting in cyberspace.
This talk of jobs and concerns does lead to deeper places eventually
given a will for such a meeting.  Another educator.  I have spent most
of my working life as an instructor of French as a second language, and
in teaching/lecturing in the fields of psychology and computer
communication studies.

> Individually, I am interested in spiritual awakening. I pursue
> nirvana. Recently, I have been interested in cyber-culture,
> cyber-art, cyber-communication.

     This place, PSYBER-L, is a good place to continue these interests.
This is a place of dreaming and transformations.

>
>    I know it, I undergone it.
>    Nevertheless, finally, the small waves will disappear..
>    Of course, the origin which provokes the small waves still remains.
>             (=lack of love, hate, struggles for surviving)

     Yet, even the smallest wave forever and utterly changes the story
of the universe.  Every act is significant not only to the actor but
also to the audience and the stage upon which the act occurs.

> In fact, I sent my e-mail to you because I felt you were unhappy and
> seized with sorrow.  I don't know you well, however, I think you
> might need a true(?) love.

     Yes, you are right.  I need to find my true love ... love of
"self".  That I have travelled so many years on this life's journey
without having this love has taken its toll on my soul and has weighed
me down with sorrow.  Still, the journey is not yet complete and I
anticipate arriving and securing this needed "true love".  I do thank
you Meeseo for the email.

> I guess that your shadow in mind come from lonelinss,
> lack of love.....

     This is true though I must state that I have a wonderful set of
people beside me to aid me as I overcome this internal world of
loneliness and lack of love.  In the external, outer world, I am loved
and held in respect by many.  It's the inner world which contains the
demons and the doubts.

     I look forward to more from you, Meeseo.

in friendship

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:57:03 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Re: Listowning
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter

> As a teenager I wanted to be an architect.  I thought then of
> it as primarily as the art of creating functional and aesthetic
> design.  Later, a psychotherapist I realised the similarity in the
> professions.  We create spaces and environments where there is the
> possibility for the clients to go into their "own notion of self
> that goes beyond any sense of "control".

     I like this analogy between the "professions".  But then again this
is probably natural since there are shared roots in the words
"architect" amd "archetype" - both deal with "constructions.  What we
are doing here is indeed a construction, architectual work with the
psyche in cyberspace.

> I have a picture of the ruins of temenos, showing a circle of
> columns.  Presumably our use of the word temenos as a sacred and
> safe container links back to the architecture of that building.  It
> must have created such a sense -- and yet who would think of the
> architect as a control freak?

     These same images show me scenes of Greek ruins, Stonehenge,
firepits of First Nations peoples of Canada, ...

     You asked:

> What does DNET stand for?  You may have said but I don't recall.

I'll append a list description (short) below:

DNET:  Online peer support & counseling discussion.

DNET (DignityNet) is a discussion and support group for individuals
involved in the field of counseling with a special focus on "online"
counseling services. Discussion may involve itself with matters that
are academic, philosophic, psychological or spiritual. The members
of this list create an environment of mutual respect and cooperation
for the purpose of peer-to-peer support through the exchange of
ideas, experience and encouragement.

     The "avatar" project is on hold for at least another three weeks as
I may have to access the project from a different service provider.
I'll let you know more when things develop in that area.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:26:25 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      me see outside
In-Reply-To:  <34DF7305.7F75@sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>     Yes, you are right.  I need to find my true love ... love of
>"self".  That I have travelled so many years on this life's journey
>without having this love has taken its toll on my soul and has weighed
>me down with sorrow.

For me, a similar recognition pissed me off. How could I be so imperfect?
Perhaps that very question helped protect me from being *truly* pissed off.
Not a good thing for me the addict; being protected, if even by a question.

>It's the inner world which contains the
>demons and the doubts.

So it was, is, how angry do I want to get? I *doubt* I'm perfect!

Believe me, you are not alone.

Your tears are salty...like mine.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:38:05 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Re: me see outside
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

HooN,

     It's about time.  I thought you got lost in the swamps.  Perhaps
you've been spending your moments flirting on Netdynam, I had to unsub
from that group as I found myself spread too thin between groups.

> How could I be so imperfect?

How could you be so human?  I think our imperfections are the very
aspects that speak of our relation to the gods and goddesses, our
kinship with them.  Perfection = inhumane.

> >It's the inner world which contains the
> >demons and the doubts.
>
> So it was, is, how angry do I want to get? I *doubt* I'm perfect!
>
> Believe me, you are not alone.
>
> Your tears are salty...like mine.

And they flow as freely?  Do they nourish a faint hope that you are
indeed the hope for humankind, the hope for your own validation, the
hope that you are not an isolated mass of molecules in meaningless
agitiation?  Tears, the birth waters of the psyche.

     Sing with me, HooN ... harmony is or isn't ... the joining is ...

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Feb 1998 22:52:36 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: me see outside
In-Reply-To:  <34DFCB9D.5939@sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Robert,

>How could you be so human?  I think our imperfections are the very
>aspects that speak of our relation to the gods and goddesses, our
>kinship with them.  Perfection = inhumane.

Agreed, with this refinement:

I think our imperfections are the very aspects that speak of our relation
to our self and each other.

***

your friend,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Feb 1998 04:07:19 +0000
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Back
In-Reply-To:  <v04003a00b105770be8a6@[207.54.160.128]>
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Dear All,

I have decided to come back..i.e I am currently bored.
Rejoice as you see fit..

Anyway, I have learnt alot since I went away, about myself, about life,
about expectations and how theres no real point to having any. I have
learnt there is no such thing as absolutes, except that I will at one point
shuffle off this mortal coil, and that thats the only thing you can ever be
sure of.
I have learnt that it is never better to have loved and lost than never to
have loved at all, and I have learnt that each action has a consequence,
and that ultimatly your faced, having paid the piper, deciding whether or
not the tune was ever worth really dancing to.

Above all I learnt, that the only person that is ever going to truly feel
sorry for you is yourself, and that thats a total waste of energy that can
be put to better things.

So I am back, somewhat jaded, somewhat wiser, somewhat crushed..but what
the hell, that which doesn't kill us..etc etc..


Dolores

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:20:00 -0500
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From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: me see outside
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Robert,

Woody Allen was once asked, "How has psychoanalysis changed your life?"
He replied, "After 30 years of analysis I have a perfect understanding of the
hole I'm stuck in."

Who we are is more than how we think and feel - its also what we do and who
we do it with.  Being complete requires a life balanced on both sides of the
hyphen.

Now at the moment, I'm feeling tired and not thinking very well because what
I'm doing is taking care of 2 sick little boys while working from home.
Perfect balance!

...Jim

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:38:17 -0500
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Subject:      Re: Back
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Cheers Dolores - good to see you back.

...Jim

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:46:55 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Back
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Jim

> Cheers Dolores - good to see you back.

I'll second that.  And you to see you and Hoon too.

I'm up too late, doing useless fiddling with the net.  It
fascinates me, when I should be sleeping.  Suddenly i am able to
get good music.  I am finding new sites that interest me, like
The Western Canon.  I see distance learning is coming into its
own . . .  http://www.then.com/edub.html . . . which looks
impressive and expensive.

sleep . . .

and then just saw, again, Psychology of Cyberspace

http://www1.rider.edu/~suler/psycyber/psycyber.html

a site that expresses well odt of the concepts that Psybernet is
about. We must make more contact . . .



Walter
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:06:35 -0600
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From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Re: me see outside
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Jim,

> Who we are is more than how we think and feel - its also what we
> do and who we do it with.

     Could I also add to this that we are the promise of what we could
do?  Some part of me feels that there are things which I could do for
myself and for those I connect with through the use of my talents both
visible and hidden.  Just being in a state of "potential" also defines
who we are.

> Now at the moment, I'm feeling tired and not thinking very well
> because what I'm doing is taking care of 2 sick little boys while
> working from home.

     I hope the two youngsters are improving and that your spirits are
rising to match their return to good health.  When energy and thought
return with force, write again and connect with me here.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:06:46 -0600
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From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Re: Back
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Dolores

> I have decided to come back..i.e I am currently bored.
> Rejoice as you see fit..

     I see fit and so rejoice.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:42:37 -0500
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From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: me see outside
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Robert,

Robert G. Longpre wrote:

> Jim,
>
> > Who we are is more than how we think and feel - its also what we
> > do and who we do it with.
>
>      Could I also add to this that we are the promise of what we could
> do?  Some part of me feels that there are things which I could do for
> myself and for those I connect with through the use of my talents both
> visible and hidden.

So ... take the pickle out and make a difference.

> Just being in a state of "potential" also defines
> who we are.
>
> > Now at the moment, I'm feeling tired and not thinking very well
> > because what I'm doing is taking care of 2 sick little boys while
> > working from home.
>
>      I hope the two youngsters are improving and that your spirits are
> rising to match their return to good health.  When energy and thought
> return with force, write again and connect with me here.
>

... and I would want to connect with you again  because ??

Jim

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:30:17 -0800
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From:         Cory Jones <xcjones@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Reading the Screwtape Letters

I am a 28 year old graduate student of Communications at a university in
Fullerton, California.  I signed up onto the Psyber-L list only recently.
 Although I expected the list to be focused on **dream interpretation**,
I am adjusting to the flow of ideas within the group.  Erudite.
Highbrow.  I have a feeling that other members of this group like to
read.  Recently, I've been reading a small work by C.S. Lewis called *The
Screwtape Letters* that is crawling under my skin.

In this book by C.S. Lewis, a senior devil is writing letters to a junior
devil about how to steal a fellow's soul.  When the fellow becomes
friends with a married couple-- "rich, smart, superficially intellectual,
and brightly sceptical about everything in the world", the senior devil
sees this as a big plus in their demonic favor.  The devil anticipates
how the fellow will soon lead "two parallel lives"--one of religious
faith, the other of worldly urbanity.  Though apparently inconsistent,
the double-life is no matter since the man "can be taught to enjoy
kneeling beside the grocer on Sunday just because he remembers that the
grocer could not possibly understand the urbane and mocking world which
[the fellow] inhabited on Saturday evening; and contrariwise, to enjoy
the bawdy and blasphemy over the coffee with these admirable friends all
the more because he is aware of a 'deeper', 'spiritual' world within him
which they cannot understand.  You see the idea--the worldly friends
touch him on one side and the grocer on the other, and he is the
complete, balanced, complex man who sees round them all."  (Chapter X)


Well, when I read this, I felt electrified, surprised, a bit exposed . .
.for Mr. Lewis had just ripped into what I considered a secret part of
myself, and then put it right there on the page like a commonplace thing
for the whole world to see!  Amazing!

Crawling under one's skin, revealing one's self in the shape of the
fictional other--must be one aspect of what makes great literature.
Could it be an aspect of great listserv e-mail groups too?  Hmmm. . . .

Best regards to all,
Mr. Cory Jones


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:50:56 -0600
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From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Re: Reading the Screwtape Letters
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Cory,

     Hello, Cory.  Yes, I do like to read.  I have read much of
C.S.Lewis' work, but have never managed to read the SCREWTAPE LETTERS.
Presently, I am reading an essay of Marie von Franz which is found
withing a book edited by C.G. Jung, MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS.

>  Although I expected the list to be focused on **dream
> interpretation**, I am adjusting to the flow of ideas
> within the group

     The first essay in this book is by Jung and he speaks to the topic
of dreams very plainly (the purpose of the book was to bring Jungian
thought to the level of everyman).  The most important point he
emphasizes is the fact that dream interpretation is best done by the
dreamer with little nudges from the analyst.  Dream dictionaries and
such are next to useless.

     However, that said, there is a real place for the sharing of dreams
and the reflection of dreams of others as they touch us.  Noting the
resonances does give us a few clues to our own unconscious contents ...
it's an interesting dance.

> Crawling under one's skin, revealing one's self in the shape of the
> fictional other--must be one aspect of what makes great literature.
> Could it be an aspect of great listserv e-mail groups too?  Hmmm. . .

     Revealing oneself in the shape of the words used to bridge the
distance between self and other ... does it matter if the character is
"fictional" in name?  I think that we reveal more than we know (not
realise) ... we reveal what is even unknown to ourselves ... yepp!  This
sounds like PSYBER-L to me.

looking forward to hearing from you again, Cory,

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Feb 1998 13:46:38 +0200
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From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Reading the Screwtape Letters
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello Cory,
You wrote:
>Crawling under one's skin, revealing one's self in the shape of the
>fictional other--must be one aspect of what makes great literature.
>Could it be an aspect of great listserv e-mail groups too?  Hmmm. . . .

Just a short comment:  Almost  every night we do "other" ourselves into many
fictional shapes and characters  in dream, i.e.  we are doubling  and
tribling of the self. Sometimes it is very  scary to see "otherness" in
ourselves.   Someone has said this process of becoming  other in dream:
altruisation.   Writers do just the same consciously. I'm convinced that the
creative process is rooted in dream , but  dreams are not yet great  art  or
literature.

Cheers
Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Feb 1998 03:37:28 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Kate's father died last week.
In-Reply-To:  <199802141146.NAA24329@walrus.megabaud.fi>
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Kate's father died last week.  He was 69 and died suddenly of a
heart attack.  It is a rich time for Kate & I as we are together
and with family and friends.  We had the funeral Monday.  For
Kate of course this is major, and mostly I am there with her as
she has her feelings and events about this.

For myself, I am aware that I belong in the family even though we
are not married.  I am conscious both of having lost a
father-in-law and never having had the status as a son-in-law.

There is a lot to all of this, Kate and her father had many
unresolved non-public dimensions.  They also had a fierce love
and were very alike.  There is an invisibility to some of the
process that I am conscious of perpetuating here as I write.  I
certainly do not feel free in this public forum to talk about all
of what is going on for me right now as it involves so many
others.

I am back at work after being away and feel as if i have never
returned (here to Psyber-L) fully from the summer holidays.  It
may still take some doing as (real) life is presenting many
challenges all at once.


Walter


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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:15:21 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: Kate's father died last week.
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Walter --

Sorry for the loss, be well with Kate.  Somehow the death of a loved one
brings a measure of guilt to all of us - I hope that this will not be
too severe for her.

...Jim

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:12:34 -0800
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From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Kate's father died last week.
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Walter..

...Sorry for kate's sorrow..
I feel that there is something inexplicable in your mind.
But, I don't know it.
....

I believe that, after suffering sorrow, only love and care will heal it.
Maybe, you can help her.
I will pray for you and kate...

Meeseo..



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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:12:12 +0900
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From:         riger <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Hello Meeseo
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 $)C
Robert

Thank you for your sincere response.
And I have a lot of things to tell you.
But now, I have little time and ability to tell you about my thoughts,
fully.

>Yet, even the smallest wave forever and utterly changes the story
>of the universe.    Every act is significant not only to the actor but
>also to the audience and the stage upon which the act occurs.

   I know the smallest thing destroys or shakes my life violently.
   Because of my excessive sensitivity, I suffered from all kind of things
in my life.
   Therefore, I had to develop the method to be freed from it.

   Whenever I encounter many events,
   I overcome it by treating it as a trivial thing or contemplating it as
it is.
    Then, I realize my feelings and sufferings are only the movements of
my mind and will soon disappear.    I believe I    will ultimately achieve
one of my dreams and my ideals. :Nirvana..:... peace of mind.
Undoubtedly, it's hard to reach it, but I will try it.

I wish you find a peace in mind.

Meeseo



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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:14:24 +0900
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         riger <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      "Seized with sorrow..." Was...wounded healer's journey
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-kr
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 $)C
Julienne

I am sorry that it's late to send my post.
Last week, I was very busy...So I couldn't write it.

>The important thing is to remain open to each other...

    I think so.
    But, in reality, we are afraid of it.

    Of course, we hope to be open to everyone.
    However, for fear of contempt or disregard,
                        we can't act like that.
                              It's regrettable.


>Meeseo, I am interested in this.    Which seasonal calendar do you
>actually follow? Both? And how does the lunar calendar actually impact
>on your life?

   To be sure, in modern daily life,
   we must follow the solar calendar.

   But in my country,
   Many people follow the lunar calendar
      in the case of birthday, ancestral rites day, Buddha's birthday,
etc.

   I also have a thought that new year truly begins at the lunar New
Year's Day.
So...even if I had a problem, I used to monologize, "it's still not new
year. if it becomes new year, it will be good."

   Because we have very long history of the Tangun Era. 6331 years and,for
a long time, have followed the lunar callendar, it might be so.


>Meeseo, I am very touched by your concern for Robert. This is part of
>the spirituality of    cyberspace - that we can reach out to each from
>South Korea to >New Zealand to Canada to the United States, as though
>there were no barriers of time >or space or place. This is so
>extraordinary and wonderful.

Now, I also believe so. I got a comfort from other's posts in Psyber-L.

..Thank you for your warm letter.

Meeseo



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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Feb 1998 13:34:15 -0800
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Marie-Louise von Franz
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Friends:

A colleague on another list writes:

> psychoanalyst Marie-Louise von Franz passed away Tuesday,
> February 17, in Kusnacht, Switzerland, following a brief illness.
> She was 83. Dr. von Franz was a longtime friend and colleague of
> Carl Jung.

I know that some of you will share my sadness at this news: may she rest in
peace.

With best wishes,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:21:07 PST
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Luis Fernández Vidaud <luislandia@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Marie-Louise von Franz
Content-Type: text/plain

I remember seeing Marie-Louise in a film about C.G. Jung in Zürich. I
must say that I was very impressed by her appearance. She was a real
positive authority for me. I have a long time wanted to read her book
about evil in fairy tales. Perhaps I will have the chance to do it soon.
- Luis Fernández Vidaud - Church for the Psychonauts
>From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
>Subject:      [P] Marie-Louise von Franz
>To:           PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>
>Friends:
>
>A colleague on another list writes:
>
>> psychoanalyst Marie-Louise von Franz passed away Tuesday,
>> February 17, in Kusnacht, Switzerland, following a brief illness.
>> She was 83. Dr. von Franz was a longtime friend and colleague of
>> Carl Jung.
>
>I know that some of you will share my sadness at this news: may she
rest in
>peace.
>
>With best wishes,
>
>
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>


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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:26:47 +0200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Marie-Louise von Franz
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Charles,

Marie-Louise von Franz was  the first Jungian I ever read  years and years
ago. I have always appreciated her work=92s -  actually  much  more than
Jung=92s - and often  referred to  her, as you know. Her book  *On Dreams=
 and
Death*  has been on my night table over a month,  ever since I saw an
enigmatic dream  about a burning birch.  Fire couldn=92t destroy it, because
it belonged to the rare family of  the burning birches. There was a
stalactite  stone cavern  inside the birch.     Von Franz points out that
the tree is  considered to be a symbol of the  opus alchemicum,
psychologically it symbolizes the  individuation process.  She refers to
Heraclitus, who taught that  cosmos consists of fire, one half of which
produces the visible world, the other half the invisible. ( Btw, Heraclitus
is my favorite philosopher). I learned  from von Franz=92s book, that  in
Greek alchemy the psyche is frequently said to be kaustike *burning*.
   Charles, I think that you  will be  interested in  *On  Dreams and Death*
because it is based on  the death and resurrection symbolism of the Western
alchemical tradition. She writes: =94Since the dreams of dying people often
contain motifs that especially resemble the alchemical-mystical symbols, it
seems important to me to take these symbols into consideration, so that we
may have before us what are obviously the most natural psychic images of the
death process and life after death, spontaneous images which have not yet
been consciously shaped into dogma.=94
     For example  she deals  with the hierosgamos, and Song of Solomon - our
great theme in the DreamEvent. She also deals with the passage through  fire
and water. It brings to my mind  one of  Stuart=92s dreams. There  was a=
 blue
sea and blue sky, and he  walked on water. Von  Franz writes: =94The blue=
 *air
liquid=B4*=94 is a strange image which also appears in the work of a student=
 of
Paracelsus, the alchemist Gerhard Dorn. For Dorn, the entire alchemical opus
culminates in the production of the so-called caelum, *the inner sky*.  He
understood this to refer to the extracted quintessence of the life of the
body, the inner truth which, as *God=92s exact image* lies hidden in the
innermost recesses of man.=94=20
     I have not yet  finished her book, because  I=92m busy with  the work,
but last night after reading your  message, I took the book from  my  night
table and  began to read it again. She says: The unconscious psyche
*believes* quite obviously in a life after death, and behaves as if the
psychic life, that is, the individuation process, will simply continue.
     Perhaps the  unconscious psyche is in the right.
     My best regards, and thank you for message.=20
     Anita




At 13:34 1998-02-19 -0800, you wrote:
>Friends:
>
>A colleague on another list writes:
>
>> psychoanalyst Marie-Louise von Franz passed away Tuesday,
>> February 17, in Kusnacht, Switzerland, following a brief illness.
>> She was 83. Dr. von Franz was a longtime friend and colleague of
>> Carl Jung.
>
>I know that some of you will share my sadness at this news: may she rest in
>peace.
>
>With best wishes,
>
>
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:51:38 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Marie-Louise von Franz
In-Reply-To:  <199802200926.LAA14615@walrus.megabaud.fi>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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What times are these! Welcome back Dolores. My heartfelt sympathy for your
and Kate's loss Walter, likewise for your recent loss too, Julianna.

What a reminder that "life is for the living"; quite the opportunity to
rise every morning to.

***

And now, the elderly, fine, Marie-Louise von Franz...

>I have always appreciated her work’s -  actually  much  more than
>Jung’s

Anita's point is easy for me to resonate with: I spent quite a bit of time
reading Jung compulsively and as an automata might, and understanding very
little. But it was first Marion Woodman, and then, soon after, Marie-Louise
von Franz, who initially explained Jung for me.

Not so much her passing but the threads here and elsewhere on the 'Jungian'
internet, and Robert's "way-making" coincide with a project I've been
slowly trying to bring to fruition, which is to commemorate the works of
the *Jungian Crones* on the world wide web. (I'm very close to publishing a
first 'edition' resource.)

***

It is only superficially odd that the most of the great written works
within the Jungian sphere which deal with male psychology were written by
women analysts such as von Franz, Woodman, Eleanor Bertine, Helen Luke,
June Singer, Emma Jung, Verena Kast, and many others.

In delving into the intricacies of the anima and animus problem, especially
in the sense of the anima problem of the daughter's father and then the
anima problem of the son, and explicating the animus problem of the
daughter, her mother, and the quickly multiplying 'archetypal' details of
the interaction between men and women in relationship and friendship, these
great women with their wellsprings of experiential depth and wisdom all
made important contributions to the understanding of masculine and male
psychology, as well as of, (and it goes without saying, really,) feminine
and female psychology.

***

Of course, being a 'red-haired' 20th century man, it was her _Puer
Aeturnus_ which, shook me the most.

I'd comment on the bigger picture, that it is the woman analyst who has
most surely with refined eros carried the Jungian torch, but it is an
obvious point needing no further comment, at least from me.

Finally, there is the even more profound value of their work as analysts,
about which I can say nothing, but am able to speculate and note their
impact must have been earthshaking for a large number of analysands. How
fortunate those analysands were and are!

***

Marie-Louise von Franz was an engaging writer with a style both rich,
conversational, and self-effacing. Yet, her authority is clear and the
scope of her reach was truly worldly, ranging as it did, for example,
between the philosophy of mathematics to the sociology and history of
mythology. She penetrated with tremendous insight behind the veils of
number, fairy tale, alchemy and the human conditioning.

a taste will follow this...

***

thank you,

HooN



ps - >     Perhaps the  unconscious psyche is in the right.


hmmmm...



 _o     \o_         __|    \ /     |__         o _   o/  \o/
__|-  __/    \__/o    \o    |    o/     o/__   /\   /|    |
   \    \    /  \     / \  /o\  / \     |   \  / |  / \  / \
http:junior.apk.net/~hoon                        hoon@apk.net

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:56:06 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      a taste; Marie-Louise von Franz
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

the promised taste:


"The barber who has gone out to meet Hatim brings him to the bath, and
Hatim sees an enormous cupola which seems to go right up to the sky. He
enters the bath, and when he looks back, the door behind him has
disappeared and he is walled in.

This is a real nightmare motif! You know you are in a prison and try to get
out everywhere, but you get more and more hemmed in. We have probably all
gone through such nocturnal agonies. This severe imprisonment is generally
experienced when one feels that the Self is closing in. Jung says,
therefore, that the prison is a symbol of the Self, but only as long as
fear of the Self prevails. You have probably all had all kinds of fantasies
as to what should, or could, or might happen and were ready to accept
anything, except something in one corner of your soul. You could say,
"Anything, but not that," and then one day just that happened to you and
you felt as though you had known always that it would be the one thing. It
felt as though a trapdoor had shut behind you. For instance, you might
think that you would never fall in love in a certain way, and then you get
just that -the one situation you would have avoided at all costs, and now
you are nicely fixed in it. You wanted it, and feared it, and had an
absolute kind of unconscious knowledge that that was where you would one
day land. Or there is some one thing on which you don't want to work! At
one time I had the feeling that I should work on a theme and write about
it, and I felt that I would do anything else, but not that! I was really
afraid to go to bed at night because I knew that my dreams would bring up
just that! I could have shortened my agony by saying, "Yes, I know I have
to do it, because I fear it so much!" But, naturally, you can't do that.
You run in circles to get away from it, you have no time, or there is
something else more important which has to be done, and all the time the
devil is behind you and whispers, "That's what you have to do!" "

(Marie-Louise von Franz; pg120, _Individuation In Fairy Tales_, Shambhala
edition)

***




HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:17:42 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      (fwd) Kate's loss and your loss
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:39:15 -0600, "Robert G. Longpre"
<aigle@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote:

Walter,

     I'm not posting this to PSYBER-L for the main reason that I lost my
e-mail files and all of my bookmarks.  Maureen, my wife, bought me a new
laptop computer, a Compaq Presario P150.  While I was attempting to
transfer my files, I accidently deleted my inbox and a number of folders
containing e-mail.  As well, I messed up the Netscape program on the
desktop computer so that I had to wipe it clean off the machine and
re-install it.  What a mess.  Finally, all is back in order and I'm
ready to take full part in the discussion again.

     Just before I lost this email, I noticed a post about Kate's loss
of her father.  This is a sad event that has now struck a number of us.
I saw it beginning with the loss you suffered with Stuart and continuing
with my brother, my mother-in-law, and Julienne's and Jim's losses.  I
don't know what to say other than Kate becomes larger in my sphere of
consciousness, a presence that I can more easily recognize.

     I just returned from a week spent in Calgary, Alberta, a place some
nine hours from where I live.  Maureen and I went there to locate a
Jungian analyst with whom I can work with to resolve many of the issues
which have caused me to seek medical leave from teaching.  I found an
analyst that I feel comfortable working with and will begin that work on
March 2nd in Calgary.  This means that I will have to move there for
likely 4 to 6 months of intensive work.  Hopefully I can then return to
work and continue analysis on a less intensive schedule.

     The move means that I will have to subscribe anew to PSYBER-L from
a new e-mail address in Calgary as my server will charge me long
distance charges once I leave the province.  This is okay as this will
let me keep in e-mail contact with Maureen and my children (yes, they
have accounts as well) while I am away.  I will be returning to my home
for a few days each month so I will not cancel my subscription with this
account (I'll set it to nomail while gone).

     I look forward to your reply.  I am hoping that you will include in
that reply the website addresses for psybernet and a few other sites
such as the site that Charles operates for his hipbone games.  For now,
could you please forward this to the group so that they know as well
what is going on with me?  I look forward to continuing our dialogue.

Robert

___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:01:07 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: (fwd) Kate's loss and your loss
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Robert

I am very glad  to read your mail sending to walter.
I thought that you might encounter certain troubles,  because you
hadn't sent your mail to psyber-L for a long time(?).

While you are away, of course,.. silence in Psyber-L.

It's fortunate for you to  find an analyst that you feel  comfortable
working with.

I believe that everything goes well.

 Meeseo


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:04:13 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Robert G. Longpre" <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Cyberie Counselling Services
Subject:      Re: Kate's loss and your loss ... Meeseo
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Meeseo,

     I want to thank you for your concern.  Yes, it has been a while
since my last post to PSYBER-L.

> I thought that you might encounter certain troubles,  because you
> hadn't sent your mail to psyber-L for a long time(?).
>
> While you are away, of course,.. silence in Psyber-L.

     I think the silence you heard was one of mourning.  Another death
connected to PSYBER-L reminds others here of their recent losses and
there follows a meditative and prayerful silence.

> It's fortunate for you to  find an analyst that you feel
> comfortable working with.
>
> I believe that everything goes well.

     I feel the same way.  Thank you Meeseo for the encouragement.  For
me, the journey of the wounded healer now enters a period of hopeful
expectation, an odyssey.  I will continue to bring aspects of this
journey to the group.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:32:22 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: (fwd) Kate's loss and your loss
In-Reply-To:  <34f913e4.2892400@mail.xtra.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Robert,

> I saw it beginning with the loss you suffered with Stuart and continuing
> with my brother, my mother-in-law, and Julienne's and Jim's losses.  I
> don't know what to say other than Kate becomes larger in my sphere of
> consciousness, a presence that I can more easily recognize.

Kate's loss is one thing, but i am not feeling it as a loss.  It
may sound wrong but there has been a relase of good energy into
our family.  Stuart's death is another story, it is exatly one
year tody that he died.he had a particular importance in my life,
and the niche cant be filled easily, and i miss my connection
with him.  He was in his forties, but even that does not feel
tragic today.  It is as if it is part of his life story, like
John Lennons etc.  I think Stuart's death was a different
experiience here, because some of us knew him from the
DreamEvent.

You are right there have been a lot of losses that have been
bought to the list ~ I guess Psyber-L has enough feel of
containment to share some of these important events.

> will begin that work on
> March 2nd in Calgary.  This means that I will have to move there for
> likely 4 to 6 months of intensive work.  Hopefully I can then return to
> work and continue analysis on a less intensive schedule.

Sounds like an adventure, a journey.  I imagine the living away
as much as the counselling will have a big impact.  What a major
change in life style!

> This is okay as this will
> let me keep in e-mail contact with Maureen and my children (yes, they
> have accounts as well) while I am away.

I'm glad you mention her name.  This is the first time i have
seen it, though i may have missed it before.  You say Kate is
more in your consciousness ... and I thought:  "Boy I even find
it hard to know her!  I wonder who Robert is conscious of!"
However, Maureen is now more in my consciousness! Names and a few
bits of information can tell us a lot.

>      I look forward to your reply.  I am hoping that you will include in
> that reply the website addresses for psybernet

The web site address is always on the botom of my emails
www.psybernet.co.nz It is also easy to find with any search
engine, though usually some remnants of the old site come up
first.

> and a few other sites
> such as the site that Charles operates for his hipbone games.

http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/

Can I also mention:

http://www.corewave.com

Which is begining a new web based Glass Bead Game, which will
last one year, on the theme of "Ancient Ideas in Modern Times" or
"Time Transcendent Ideas."

> For now,
> could you please forward this to the group so that they know as well
> what is going on with me?

Done, as you know.

> I look forward to continuing our dialogue.

I do too. However let me add some misgivings; fears, mildly
paranod fantasies if you will ...

Hmmm ... this complex.  Let me continue in another post.  I will
join in the conversation with Meeseo.


Walter

___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:32:27 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Getting to the Core      [was Re: Kate's loss and your loss ...
              Meeseo]
In-Reply-To:  <34F6E3FD.3ADF@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert, Meeseo, Jim, all,

>      I think the silence you heard was one of mourning.  Another death
> connected to PSYBER-L reminds others here of their recent losses and
> there follows a meditative and prayerful silence.

The analysis does not fit my experience.  I find none that really
fits.  I have not experienced a prayerful silence.  With all the
off screen events & business here, my silence has been partly one
of necessity, but i know that is not the whole story.  I have not
felt in the mood, for tackling the uncomfortable feelings I have
when i read psyber-L.  The silence for me has been uncomfortable.
(That is OK, it is par for the course, I accept that i experience
that here.)

What do you Robert, or anyone, make of the discussion (please
read it again) re the relationship between action and
psychotherapy, that Robert and Jim, had which concluded, in the
following post:

  Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
  Re: me see outside
  Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:42:37 -0500

with this, I quote:

Robert:
> When energy and thought
> return with force, write again and connect with me here.
>

Jim:
... and I would want to connect with you again  because ??

~~~ end quote ~~~

One of the silences i experience here is this unfinished
conversation.  It seems *pertinent*, to both your journey,
Robert, psychological and *physical* and to our discussions here
where "action" is a strange word indeed.  (I imagine when Dolores
is in the mood we will see a bit of action!  Or are you
questioning that role in life Dolores?)

Meeseo wrote:
> > I believe that everything goes well.

I do too.  For all my noticing of my feelings about the "space"
here, and naming them as mildly paranoid (in my last post.)

Robert:
>      I feel the same way.  Thank you Meeseo for the encouragement.  For
> me, the journey of the wounded healer now enters a period of hopeful
> expectation, an odyssey.  I will continue to bring aspects of this
> journey to the group.

You make it sound as if there is an audience awaiting with baited
breath for the next episode in the journey of a character ...
"the wounded healer" ... who is not quite you.

I have a sense that you value Psyber-L a great deal in this
process.  I welcome hearing aspects of your journey.  I also feel
the limitations of Psyber-L ... not a restriction, but a
necessary limit to its scope.  I am glad you said "aspects", that
fits the nature of the place.  I also have a sense that the guts
of your psychological journey can't quite belong in this open
space.  I think getting to the guts of it is more important than
the aspects.

That's why in the other post I said i had misgivings about
"continuing the dialogue".  I want to get to the guts of it, my
own too! and yours, and other peoples, and I *feel* the
limitations of the space, it is not designed for getting to the
guts of things, that is a great aim, and would require great
design.  Don't underestimate the power of design  ... (must get
back to the architecture discussion.)

The question that is pertinent to the Psyber-L focus is:

How do we create and design an online place that is more suited
to specific needs.

For example:

***
CoreNet

A mailing list for those who are on psychological journeys and
wish a place to support and share with others.  The list is by
invitation only and does not keep archives.

***

It is not as easy as that either.  How many would be in it?  Who
would own it.  Moderate?  Participate, facilitate?

From my experience there are many different needs ... some would
be happy with three members others would like 300.  Some would
like expert facilitation. other free for all.

How would none get expert facilitation, without charging a fee?
How would people join if it was for a fee?

~~~

Robert, I hope this is not experienced as cold water on your
sharing here, it is certainly not intended that way.  My
intention is to connect with you.

Walter
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Feb 1998 05:04:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Listowning
In-Reply-To:  <34DF89BE.353B@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> > As a teenager I wanted to be an architect.  I thought then of
> > it as primarily as the art of creating functional and aesthetic
> > design.  Later, a psychotherapist I realised the similarity in the
> > professions.  We create spaces and environments where there is the
> > possibility for the clients to go into their "own notion of self
> > that goes beyond any sense of "control".
>
>      I like this analogy between the "professions".  But then again this
> is probably natural since there are shared roots in the words
> "architect" amd "archetype" - both deal with "constructions.  What we
> are doing here is indeed a construction, architectual work with the
> psyche in cyberspace.

When i looked up the origin of "arche-" ironically it related to
control aspect.  Greek arkhos = chief.  However the etymology may
be misleading, as we also have, Greek  arkhe = beginning, and
arkhaios = ancient.

I think it is clear that when it comes to "architect" it is
related to chief builder, Greek tekton = builder.

I intuit a commonality in that there is a notion of "prime" and
"original" in both words.

In that sense it relates to "listowner" in both ways. In the
beginning there was someone who created the list, and who is the
chief of its original structure.   These origins remain our
origins and the "warm-up" to whatever comes after.  The list
owner also remains the one who has control (in the final
analysis) of the structure.


> > I have a picture of the ruins of temenos, showing a circle of
> > columns.  Presumably our use of the word temenos as a sacred and
> > safe container links back to the architecture of that building.  It
> > must have created such a sense -- and yet who would think of the
> > architect as a control freak?
>
>      These same images show me scenes of Greek ruins, Stonehenge,
> firepits of First Nations peoples of Canada, ...

Circles.

I have a sense that the word sacred is too strong , and
misleading for the sense of containment and creation of depth
that I want.  That we have?

At the top of the MS Internet Explorer is a button that mentions
"Sacred Sites".  I pushed it wondering if Psybernet or Hipbone,
or CoreWave were "Sacred Sites".  Alas we got photos of
Stonehenge etc.  Well done for all that, but where are the sacred
sites on the net?  That is the sort of architecture I want to do.
To create a sense of something when we enter into a particular
place in cyberspace.  Seeking Psyberspace.

>      You asked:
>
> > What does DNET stand for?  You may have said but I don't recall.
>
> I'll append a list description (short) below:
>
> DNET:  Online peer support & counseling discussion.
>
> DNET (DignityNet) is a discussion and support group for individuals
> involved in the field of counseling with a special focus on "online"
> counseling services. Discussion may involve itself with matters that
> are academic, philosophic, psychological or spiritual. The members
> of this list create an environment of mutual respect and cooperation
> for the purpose of peer-to-peer support through the exchange of
> ideas, experience and encouragement.

Not so different from the warm-up to Psyber-L.  Is the list
archived?  How does it feel, work?  What "architectural" factors
do you think influence the flow in DNET?

Related to this is a list i have just subbed to, the Virtual
Community Mailing List.  I will forward info separately.  I don't
know what it will be like, as I have just got the info.  I have a
sense that this list will cover much of what is in the
Description for Psyber-L but that it does not cover the Psyche
aspect.  The soul aspect.  Hence i think it might compliment this
list well, and allow us to specialise more on that aspect.  There
has never been a big enthusiasm for the nitty gritty
architectural aspects of cs here.

>      The "avatar" project is on hold for at least another three weeks as
> I may have to access the project from a different service provider.
> I'll let you know more when things develop in that area.


I guess this is on further hold?  I discovered MS Vchat.  A 3d
chat space,  did little for me.  I am not a fan of IRC chat,
though my best experience was with Hoon and John?  Jim?  & that
was good.  I also chat a lot with my son Josh using ICQ, that is
great.  The cartoon dimension is technically impressive, but will
it add depth?  Pun intended, i think the depth is to be found in
pure ascii and asynchronicity.

Does spontaneity come forth out of depth?


Walter
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Feb 1998 05:04:44 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      (Fwd) The Virtual Community Mailing List
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Here is the info re VC mailing list, which I metioned in another
post (Subject: Listowning):

~~~

Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:59:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "S. Kritikos" <napoli@wwa.com>

I would like to let you know that a mailing list has been
set up for people interested in Virtual Communities.

With the spread of Internet new social groups are formed
around technologies such as:

* USENET groups
* mailing lists
* Multi User Domains
* Internet Relay Chat (IRC) channels
* WWW sites
* community networks

The purpose of our mailing list is to bring together people
who:

* participate in online communities,
* are involved in their design or anticipate doing so in
  the future,
* interested in the theory about virtual communities,
* try to assess various technologies that make them
  possible,
* or are concerned about the social implications of online
  life.

In short if your are interested in virtual communities this
is the list to be on!

To join the Virtual Community Mailing List, please send
email to:

listserv@maelstrom.stjohns.edu

with message:
subscribe gna-vc [first name] [last name]

where [first name] and [last name] are your names. The
listserv will then email you back asking for confirmation.

More information about the list is available at:

http://www.gnacademy.org:8001/uu-gna/text/vc/gna-vc.html

The Virtual Community Mailing List is sponsored by the
Globewide Network Academy (http://www.gnacademy.org:8001/uu-gna)
and St Johns University (http://www.stjohns.edu).

Hope to see you there!

Regards
S. Kritikos




___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:41:42 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      online sites opening on the sacred / was Re: [P] Listowning
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, friends:

Walter wrote:

> At the top of the MS Internet Explorer is a button that mentions
> "Sacred Sites".  I pushed it wondering if Psybernet or Hipbone,
> or CoreWave were "Sacred Sites".  Alas we got photos of
> Stonehenge etc.  Well done for all that, but where are the sacred
> sites on the net?  That is the sort of architecture I want to do. To
> create a sense of something when we enter into a particular place
> in cyberspace.  Seeking Psyberspace.

Fascinating idea, Walter, that "sacred sites" on the internet would be
sites which offer a temenos or sanctuary or meditative access, etc, rather
than sites which *talk about* or *picture* Stonehenge or churches or
temples.  I'd certainly like to include John Opsopaus' Bibliotheca Arcana
and in particular his Pythagorean Tarot on such a list...

     http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/
     http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PT/PT.html

But the whole question of what it takes to create an "opening" on the
sacred comes up.  From the point of view of physical architecture,
Christopher Alexander's books *The Timeless Way of Building* and *A Pattern
Language* are immensely helpful, as Jung and his colleagues are for the
psychic impact of ritual and myth.  Archetypal patterns are important, but
I suspect you need to have sequence and some kind of "build" over time,
too...

*

I have a game designer friend who creates "online, persistent worlds" which
thousands of people worldwide can play simultaneouly.  He once checked out
who was playing the most hours of his first game, and found it was someone
playing something like 16 hours a day -- so he emailed the player to ask
delicately how that could be, and found out it was a man in hospital,
basically dying of a degenerative spinal disease, and with no family to
visit him.  This man's interactions with the other players in this virtual
world *were* his social contacts, his family and friends -- and when at
last his pain got so bad and the medicaytions so fierce that he had to drop
out of the game, there was no ritual of farewell iun place, so he just
"disappeared" and didn't come back.

My friend realized that his game world was essentially functioning as a
"virtual hospice" for the player, and knew that if there *had* been a way
of signalling imminent departure, dozens and maybe hundreds of other
players who had interacted with him in the virtual world -- teaming up with
him to defeat marauders from the nearby town, or having a drink in the bar
with him, swapping stories, or perhaps reading artiucles he'd written to
the local virtual newspaper or whatever -- would have posted messages of
love and support and encouragement, to say the least, and probably had a
wonderful impact.

So the questions my game designer friend now asks at game design
conferences, in his round tables and lectures, are: how do we add genuine
psychological depth to our games, what is the real nature of human
community, what does it take for an online game to have a therapeutic
effect, how does one write "valid" myths and rituals for a fictitious
"virtual" world, and so on.

*

I'd be very interested to discuss these questions -- pertinent, I think, to
the list topic of psyche in cyberspace -- with list members, and have
changed the thread title to reflect this.

It seems to me that we should bear in mind that "entering the sacred" may
involve slowing down rather than speeding up, paying attention to the
shadow, crisis and resolution, etc -- and that there are at least
"shamanic" and "priestly", "religious" and "non religious", and "via
negativa" and "via positive" approaches to consider.

But that's enough for now, best wishes,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:42:57 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      the lady with the mystic smile
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

(btw, this message was sent by mistake to netdynam; my apologies. Not sure
what the slip was about. I told them, a good group, in a follow-up: "tough
it out".)

***

Cyberians,

For the first time in a long
time my online time has been spent listening much more than
asserting. Even having reached points where I wished to say this or
that I have pulled back. Unlike me...yes.

Not so odd is that much is resonating.

First, Robert, your sensings from the frontlines of your path have
been on my mind at times over the last two years.&nbsp; Sometimes you
make references to goings-on that I relate to, for example your
delving into the Inner City Books. Such an example is hardly trivial
for there was for me, several years ago, some shocking moments
of&nbsp; grace-full synchronicity while reading Marion Woodman.

Robert, you are intrepid, and I am certain much grace is in store for
you. If I may add my own hope for you: it is that you will make a
moment every day to give your heart an opportunity to love you.

***

Dolores returns quietly. Quietude may be the solvent to ennui, we'll
see. Anita too is back but busy, writing and living. But where to
hang that virtual anima projection?

***

Speaking of *that*, a few weeks ago I had a little synchronous rebuff
when I called some software customer service line and while I was on
hold what should be playing but Nat King Cole:
</font><font color="#660000">

[Mona Lisa, Mona Lisa, men have named you
You're so like the lady with the mystic smile
Is it only 'cause you're lonely they have blamed you?
For that Mona Lisa strangeness in your smile?

Do you smile to tempt a lover, Mona Lisa?
Or is this your way to hide a broken heart?
Many dreams have been brought to your doorstep
They just lie there and they die there
Are you warm, are you real, Mona Lisa?
Or just a cold and lonely lovely work of art?

Do you smile to tempt a lover, Mona Lisa?
Or is this your way to hide a broken heart?
Many dreams have been brought to your doorstep
They just lie there and they die there
Are you warm, are you real, Mona Lisa?
Or just a cold and lonely lovely work of art?]


It took me a moment to key in on the tune, fidelity of the phone
being so poor, but then the message came through. I'm a bit shameless
in saying this: it's a 'minder about my own rapacious attitude toward
my feminine and tendency to indulge in dissipation. And yes: I needed
the reminder, it struck me in fact.

***

Meanwhile, this all comes in the midst of preparing some updates for
the web site, (as usual much too ambitious and octopoid,) concerned
with "Jungian Crones", music, and, more outward looking, the web
presence for Judith and the squareONE partnership:experiential
toolmakers. I mention these details of my life not expecting them to
be relevent to you but to relate how it is what happens here relates
to those very details:

architecture, games, connections, meaning, and coincidence be they
synchronicity or serendipity, and, dare I say, the development of
more fully-in-the-moment and fulfilled humans.

Not surprising given this context, Judith and I are planning our
first workshop in over a year. Although it was contracted to be about
synchronicity, knowing this is the opposite of something that can be
willed, I've decided, (Judith is watching,) to design a learning tool
which might keep the door open but is intended more to allow for
"Serendipity Dancing Exultantly", (which is the name of the new
tool).
***
So I wander over to http://www.corewave.com to confirm anew the
parallel of our work with the idea symphonists.

Wow!
***

A bow to you Robert, for your guts, and to all,
best wishes,
HooN

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:41:16 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: online sites opening on the sacred
In-Reply-To:  <l03130300b11e0a8d0710@[195.99.43.151]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Charles, all,

Good to see you back here.  You must be in the UK?  I hope the transition
went well.  Hard to notice it in cyberspace, it is as if you have not moved
at all! <grin>.

> Fascinating idea, Walter, that "sacred sites" on the internet would be
> sites which offer a temenos or sanctuary or meditative access, etc, rather
> than sites which *talk about* or *picture* Stonehenge or churches or
> temples.  I'd certainly like to include John Opsopaus' Bibliotheca Arcana
> and in particular his Pythagorean Tarot on such a list...
>
>      http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/
>      http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/PT/PT.html

Beautiful.  In my flurry of etymology I saw that Arcana is related to Latin
arca = chest.  I have a sense of this being  John Opsopaus' own chest of
knowlege, revealed to the world.  A chest is a container, and his site has a
sense of unity and containment.  It is also a library.  I love them and will
retutn to this one.  A library can have a sense of ... sacred?  That is too
strong.  Aside:  In our local Library in Christchurch they have a huge noisy
escalator right in the centre.  It simply ruins the atmosphere of what a
library can be.  They also have rows of computers for public access to the
Internet, great idea, but there was a time we had a beautiful old library
here, and it is now a reataurant.

> But the whole question of what it takes to create an "opening" on the
> sacred comes up.  From the point of view of physical architecture,
> Christopher Alexander's books *The Timeless Way of Building* and *A Pattern
> Language* are immensely helpful, as Jung and his colleagues are for the
> psychic impact of ritual and myth.  Archetypal patterns are important, but
> I suspect you need to have sequence and some kind of "build" over time,
> too...

You are onto it.  I have a pattern language, and i think this is the Bible
for design *on the internet*.  I recall we shared this information a few
years ago, and explored a site related to HTML and a pattern language.  I
could not find it, but this looked good:

http://www.mgtaylor.com/mgtaylor/jotm/winter97/patintro.htm

A pattern language for enterprise.

The emphasis in A Pattern Language is that the environment facilitates the
way people live and interconnect.  How do various sites do that?  Hipbone
has a page called Invitation to Play ... can I connect there with others who
istantly want to play?  That would be good.  Play via email.

This might not be an idea that promotes the "sacred" but it could create a
sense of belonging, containment, atmosphere, purpose, connection, respect,
authenticity, a circle.

The Psybernet site should also facilitate email discussion spaces for depth
work.  Psyber-L & PsyberGroups have a history of experimentation.  This has
led to a small grou of us "knowing each other".  There is a circle.  This
takes time it is not a log on and chat situation.  I like what you say about
the "build" over time.

> *
>
> I have a game designer friend who creates "online, persistent worlds" which
> thousands of people worldwide can play simultaneouly.

...

> So the questions my game designer friend now asks at game design
> conferences, in his round tables and lectures, are: how do we add genuine
> psychological depth to our games, what is the real nature of human
> community, what does it take for an online game to have a therapeutic
> effect, how does one write "valid" myths and rituals for a fictitious
> "virtual" world, and so on.
>
> *

That is the question.  There were depth connections, serendipitous to the
purpose of being in a virtual game world.  I have seen similar depths
discovered in software discussion forums.  People get to *know* each other.
What is the place of belonging?  Joining?  I know that subscribing to a list
is a rather mechanical process, yet it is a *act* of committment of a sort.
In the CoreWave GBG I miss that sense of "belonging" as I can read the
discussions only via the web (as far as i know) and there is no "list" of
members.

> I'd be very interested to discuss these questions -- pertinent, I think, to
> the list topic of psyche in cyberspace -- with list members, and have
> changed the thread title to reflect this.

> It seems to me that we should bear in mind that "entering the sacred" may
> involve slowing down rather than speeding up, paying attention to the
> shadow, crisis and resolution, etc -- and that there are at least
> "shamanic" and "priestly", "religious" and "non religious", and "via
> negativa" and "via positive" approaches to consider.

My sense of the Psybernet journey is of a slow river, which has deep pools,
and occasional dangerous rapids.  It is not religious, no shaman in
residence (see archive for discussion on thea theme!) certainly no priest.
I will claim the humble title of Listowner, at least in Psyber-L, but that
does not create much of an atmosphere.  A bit like the Christchurch Library.
In rl I use the word Psychotherapist, and it fits well for the work i do.
Attending to the psyche.  I like the title Game Master that they use in
CoreWave, apart from its masculine overtones.  The main task is to take the
"moves" or "beads" from the outer to the inner circle.

> But that's enough for now, best wishes,

and to you and all.


Walter
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:41:27 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: online sites opening on the sacred
In-Reply-To:  <l03130300b11e0a8d0710@[195.99.43.151]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

I copied the following exerpt from Edupage.  I thought it related to our
discussion here:


************************************************************
Edupage, 24 February 1998.  Edupage, a summary of news about information
technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a
Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities
seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.
************************************************************

ONLINE COURSES NEED TO LOOK GOOD TO BE GOOD
Researchers at the University of British Columbia have concluded that to be
effective, the appearance of an online course is as important as the
content.  "We paid attention to the feeling and tone of the course, not just
the content and teaching processes," says one of the researchers.  "It's
like going into the supermarket -- the food might look all right, but the
music drives you crazy, so you leave."  The study, "Best- and Worst-Dressed
Web Courses:  Strutting into the 21st Century in Comfort and Style,"
includes a "Madonna Award for Best-Dressed Course," which was granted to an
American history course at the University of Wisconsin at Madison.  The
researchers evaluated 127 courses using 43 criteria.
http://www.usq.edu.au/dec/decjourn/demain.htm  (Chronicle of Higher
Education 27 Feb 98)


************************************************************

Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading.  To subscribe to Edupage:
send mail to: listproc@educom.unc.edu with the message:  subscribe edupage
Johnny Mercer  (if your name is Johnny Mercer; otherwise, substitute your
own name).  To unsubscribe send a message to: listproc@educom.unc.edu with
the message: unsubscribe edupage.   (If you have subscription problems, send
mail to manager@educom.unc.edu.)
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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