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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:33:55 -0400
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From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@GL.UMBC.EDU>
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore County
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Larry Germansky wrote:

> Unscribe

Only if you wrote in invisible ink.

Rob

--
Rob Carlson, KC2AEI | robcarlson@umbc.edu | http://umbc.edu/~rcarls2

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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:02:45 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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On Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:33:55 -0400, you, Rob Carlson <rcarls2@GL.UMBC.EDU>,
wrote:

>On Sat, 29 Aug 1998, Larry Germansky wrote:
>
>> Unscribe
>
>Only if you wrote in invisible ink.

Backwards.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:18:48 EDT
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From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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In a message dated 98-08-29 16:04:57 EDT, you write:

<< And when
 they opened it, the fig tree burst into golden fruit, hundreds of sweet halos
and not a snake
 in sight.>>

I love the end, Nancy!

Sheryl :)

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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:18:49 EDT
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From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Thank you Anita :)

In a message dated 98-08-25 19:02:23 EDT, you write:

<<  The  silence has never been  threatening to me,   perhaps  it comes of  my
background.  My parents were very  noisy when they were  angry,  and they were
very often angry.   When things were going badly, they  were like roaring
lions,  when smoothly,  they  were silent like fishes  and  I  feel happy.  >>

I have learned to appreciate silence more now too, Anita.  What a wonderful
image, "silent like fishes"!

Another thing about silence is that when someone does speak following a period
of  silence, it can be such a treat, and a pleasant surprise.

Namaste'
Sheryl

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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:18:46 EDT
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From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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In a message dated 98-08-28 09:44:44 EDT, Walter wrote:

<< Sheryl wrote:
 > >I think my jump in post yesterday had a flavor of "huh, what's she talking
 > >about?" so I'll try to stay a little more targeted.

 Janell replied:
 >       I didn't feel anything poorly about your first post, the "huh, what's
 > she talking about" is not necessary.

 I agree, Sheryl,  I wonder if it was a parallel process here of you taking
 on board feelings about your post because there might have been some
 silence in response? >>

Nope, Walter, I'm pretty sure my hesitation about what I wrote in the original
post had more to do with having had to focus my so much of my writing into APA
"scholarly" style the last 2 years!  And APA scholarly style generally frowns
upon crypticness (?), at least from what I understand it to be.

Generally, I know that I have always enjoyed writing cryptically!  But it also
puts the reader in the position of having to be a mind reader sometimes, a
difficult spot to be in, IMO.

 << Do you thing the popping up here has been useful?  I think so.  I am still
 with the question of what was happening, but a lot has been revealed.  Was
 there hostility ... hidden in the silence?  I think so ... or at least
 grains of irritation. >>

Yep, I think popping up can be useful, and nope, I don't really interpret
silence as hostility.  I did at times in my first experience with Psyber-L,
but then I think I took myself far too seriously back then, too!

I especially liked popping into Psyber-L with my off the wall Woeman post.
The comment Stephen made about animus taking over the list was on target, I
thought!  And also I was REALLY humored that the metaphor I'd used, blood,
continued its own little path, through the writings of others!

<< The main one is the huge conflict in my life between here in psyberspace
 and my rl professional work ... I spend about as much time "attending to
 the psyche here in cs as i do in my other work ... that builds a tension.
 Good to name it.  It was a  passive little gnaw in the silence. >>

One of my passions is still to bring the two together, "real" and virtual
life.  I think then, we will have a good chance to learn how to honor each
other.

Sheryl :)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1998 06:16:30 PDT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         David Iulian <d_iulian@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's happening? Wolves!
Content-Type: text/plain

Nancy,

Sorry, my Internet works only when it wants.
        Well, let's see…

>Did the reoccurring dream continue after you made friends with the
>real wolf, or stop?

I tried to remember and I can't tell you something strictly. I thing it
stopped before the real wolf appeared.
About Mother Russia… yes she was always the 'hungery wolf' for my
country, and not only for Romania. But I don't know if I understood
something about that in these years. I know I heard discussions about
the life and death. Nobodies liked the system and in my home we listened
the radio 'Free Europe'. After these auditions my parents tack about
them. I grow up in this ugly and grey atmosphere. My father liked to
drink and now I thing he is almost an alcoholic.
Later I had the feeling that I live. I had the feeling that my eyes
really see. I find my past life of a blind child. This was when I start
to understand what it's happen in my country and in my little world. In
this years of adolescence I found my self like a wandering and solitary
wolf. I don't know if the words say something about what feel.

        The Never Ending Story is relevant to me. I see the movie after the
revolution (1989). Maybe many of us found them in this character. We
'studied' at the school of absurd. The system was the Killer of
Imagination. Every day, every night was a nightmare where the absurd was
the King. It was a big pressure but I 'survive'. But I want to remember
this every day. And I put myself always a question : how can we accept
so many years ? I was 18 years old in 1989 and was I in army in the days
of revolution. I was almost a kid and I find myself guilty for 45 years
of tyranny.

About our schools… now we try to copy the west system. We find it great.
I don't thing so. I don't know the way of our future children. They go
at school at 6-7 age and we stress them with too much inconsistent
things. We forget the language of childhood. I thing now at a computer
in the hands of a child. How can I understand them if I see the first
computer at 20 years?

Iulian with thanks for reply.


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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1998 15:52:21 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???

I'm glad you liked it Sheryl.  It's odd, my micro-short collaborator didn't
like the ending.  She's angry over her current life situation and
'sweet' ending just don't fly at such times.  Still it's working out as
it's stimulated her own creativity, and that always seems to help.

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Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:31:00 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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"Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>

In the following post:

  "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
  Re: What's Happening???
  Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:37:43 -0400

you wrote:


>      I do understand the conflict between the real world and this one of
> psyberspace and I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only with tension because
> of this conflict.

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:31:03 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Janell,

I wrote:

> >Do you thing the popping up here has been useful?  I think so.  I am still
> >with the question of what was happening, but a lot has been revealed.  Was
> >there hostility ... hidden in the silence?  I think so ... or at least
> >grains of irritation.

you wrote:

>     I hear what you're saying,  but I'm wondering how you interpret
> hostility or even grains of irritation in the silence????

I was not all that clear above, I introspected into my own silence and felt
the irritation ... so i was simply speaking for myself ... I explained it
more in the next paragraph, and that is the irritation I refer to:

> >The main one is the huge conflict in my life between here in psyberspace
> >and my rl professional work ... I spend about as much time "attending to
> >the psyche here in cs as i do in my other work ... that builds a tension.
> >Good to name it.  It was a  passive little gnaw in the silence.

>      I do understand the conflict between the real world and this one of
> psyberspace and I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only with tension because
> of this conflict.

The actual time I have for online work has diminished greatly in the last
few weeks.  I am busy at work, and for some reason cant't do the very late
night marathons I used to, and at this moment have a bit of flu.

I do not feel irritable or hostile or passive aggressive about it at the
moment ... resigned, that I need to find ways to enable me to arrange to
have more online time.  Janell, how do you attend to that tension?  I find
it hard, as my real life paying job is satisfying and full on, but it is as
if we are on the brink of a new step here in ps into something
revolutionary in the psyche.  I would hate to not be there!  I think I can
say about the last 5 years of cs "I was there."  The next 5 are upon us and
2000 will be start of the new era ... I am hungry to be on the growing
edge, and bursting with ideas ... with no time to attend to them ...

I have not read posts (at least not thoroughly) past this one, and have
printed them out and out, and will take them away to read.

Walter
Looking forward to being here more ...

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1998 18:06:35 +0300
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From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      On the wolves
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Hello  Iulian, Nancy and all Psyberbians,

Your  mails, Iulian, on the wolves were extremely interesting, but
unfortunately  I lost them, and  all other messages, too.  My  poor old
computer collapsed due to, because  I tried to  make a home-page.
    I think that  the wolves in  the Eastern  European  and  Russian
folklore  are symbols  of   all threatening evil. There  is  lot of stories
about  werewolves.  A  wolf- phobia is   rooted deep in  the   Eastern
European  collective  psyche.   Probably all  imaginative and sensitive
children, who have  listened to fairytales,  have   sometimes  seen  dreams
about  wolves. For example  Dostoevsky   depicts in some of his works the
nightmarish vision of a child chased by  a  wolf.  The wolf is running away
when one peasant places his finger to the frightened child's lips and
speaks the words of  Christ.  Dostoyesky himself   feared   intensively of
wolves in his childhood.
    It is not wonder, that " the most  famous case" of the  psychoanalysis
came from Russian.  He was  Sergei Pankeev, known as the Wolf-man.  He  saw
  at the age of  four years  a dream about   seven white wolves, which were
sitting on  the big walnut tree in front of the  window. He woke up
screaming and in  great terror, evidently of being  eaten up  by the
wolves.  He was  Freud's patient  for years.  To  Freud he  was the  bearer
of a distinct, exotic culture.  He  wrote in a letter to Zweig, that
emotional ambivalence was a primitive trait, preserved more in Russians
than in other nations.   He believed - like almost all Westerners -  in
the ethnocultural stereotype.   Russia is a place of "otherness",
strangeness where the most incredible excesses are possible, be they
political or  sexual.   He didn't  understand  the Russian culture and
language, so  he totally misinterpreted Sergei's dream .  Through  his
wolf-dream  Freud formulated the concept  of the  "primal  scene"  a
central theme on psychoanalytic  theory, which  occurs when. a child views
his parents having sex.   By the way I' m a great admirer of  Freud's
works,  especially of  his Interpretation of the Dreams,  despite his
misinterpretations and faults.
     As  a child I have had  many   threatening  dreams of   wolves.  I
have seen  the wolf-dreams  even as  a adult, the last one was  about two
years ago, but it  was no  more threatening.  You asked, Iulian, whether we
all on this  list are psychotherapist or psychologist.  I'm a  writer and
I'm  very interested  of  psyche  in the  cyberspace,  and  especially of
the  impact of  words and language on  the psyche.  The  genuine
psychoanalysis is grounded on the  words.  You can't see your  analyst
face to face,  you only keep talking, and he  or she   says sometimes
"hmm", but  usually he or she sits silent -  just  as we here  in the
Psyberlandia!  Seriously  speaking  maybe Lacan was  right  when he said
that the  unconscious is structured like a language, and that  it
structured like a person's native language. All the symbolic  material
related to childhood events is  preserved within the protective covering of
the  native tongue.  Each language has its  own rules, idioms, sayings and
phonetic  associations that are  crucial to any  analysis and yet often
simply untranslatable from one language to other.  So,  it is no wonder,
that   people in  the cyberspace  misunderstand each others' psyche.

Best regards
Anita

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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:08:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <35fc0eb6.165997032@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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Walter and others:


At 10:31 AM 9/5/98 GMT, you wrote:
>Janell,
>
>I wrote:
>
>> >Do you thing the popping up here has been useful?  I think so.  I am still
>> >with the question of what was happening, but a lot has been revealed.  Was
>> >there hostility ... hidden in the silence?  I think so ... or at least
>> >grains of irritation.
>
>you wrote:
>
>>     I hear what you're saying,  but I'm wondering how you interpret
>> hostility or even grains of irritation in the silence????
>
>I was not all that clear above, I introspected into my own silence and felt
>the irritation ... so i was simply speaking for myself ... I explained it
>more in the next paragraph, and that is the irritation I refer to:
>
>> >The main one is the huge conflict in my life between here in psyberspace
>> >and my rl professional work ... I spend about as much time "attending to
>> >the psyche here in cs as i do in my other work ... that builds a tension.
>> >Good to name it.  It was a  passive little gnaw in the silence.
>
>>      I do understand the conflict between the real world and this one of
>> psyberspace and I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only with tension because
>> of this conflict.
>
>The actual time I have for online work has diminished greatly in the last
>few weeks.  I am busy at work, and for some reason cant't do the very late
>night marathons I used to, and at this moment have a bit of flu.
>
>I do not feel irritable or hostile or passive aggressive about it at the
>moment ... resigned, that I need to find ways to enable me to arrange to
>have more online time.  Janell, how do you attend to that tension?  I find
>it hard, as my real life paying job is satisfying and full on, but it is as
>if we are on the brink of a new step here in ps into something
>revolutionary in the psyche.  I would hate to not be there!  I think I can
>say about the last 5 years of cs "I was there."  The next 5 are upon us and
>2000 will be start of the new era ... I am hungry to be on the growing
>edge, and bursting with ideas ... with no time to attend to them ...

  You ask the question of  "how do I attend to the tension?"  I don't
believe that I feel the tension quite as much as you do, while I enjoy my
on-line time I believe that I take it with a grain of salt. My first career
(before Psychodrama) was as a computer programmer/systems analyst for a
large corporation and I always saw the computer as a tool similar to a pen
or a hammer to be used when necessary. I agree with you that we (all human
beings) are just at the tip of the iceberg as far as computer technology is
concerned. The next 100 years are going to be extremely exciting as far as
technology is concerned, and I would enjoy seeing them evolve (perhaps, I
will in another lifetime, but that's another story).

 I guess I don't feel the burning desire that you talk of,  to be in on the
growing edge. Yes, I'd like to see it, and yes, I wouldn't mind using it,
but I don't have to be in on it's development. I'll leave that to others.

  When I feel too much tension though I take a long walk in nature with my
Rottweiler and she and I talk of the hectic pace of the world. Usually I
come back feeling very refreshed and ready to deal with a little more
tension. I hope this answer helps a little.

>I have not read posts (at least not thoroughly) past this one, and have
>printed them out and out, and will take them away to read.
>
>Walter
>Looking forward to being here more ...
>
     Janell

  Just back from a very long walk with my Rottweiler.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:19:02 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: On the wolves
In-Reply-To:  <199809061524.SAA01403@walrus.megabaud.fi>
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Anita:

   Your post on wolves is very interesting. I still find it a shame that
wolves have been so misunderstood in some cultures.

At 06:06 PM 9/6/98 +0300, you wrote:
>Hello  Iulian, Nancy and all Psyberbians,
>
>Your  mails, Iulian, on the wolves were extremely interesting, but
>unfortunately  I lost them, and  all other messages, too.  My  poor old
>computer collapsed due to, because  I tried to  make a home-page.
>    I think that  the wolves in  the Eastern  European  and  Russian
>folklore  are symbols  of   all threatening evil. There  is  lot of stories
>about  werewolves.  A  wolf- phobia is   rooted deep in  the   Eastern
>European  collective  psyche.   Probably all  imaginative and sensitive
>children, who have  listened to fairytales,  have   sometimes  seen  dreams
>about  wolves. For example  Dostoevsky   depicts in some of his works the
>nightmarish vision of a child chased by  a  wolf.  The wolf is running away
>when one peasant places his finger to the frightened child's lips and
>speaks the words of  Christ.  Dostoyesky himself   feared   intensively of
>wolves in his childhood.
>    It is not wonder, that " the most  famous case" of the  psychoanalysis
>came from Russian.  He was  Sergei Pankeev, known as the Wolf-man.  He  saw
>  at the age of  four years  a dream about   seven white wolves, which were
>sitting on  the big walnut tree in front of the  window. He woke up
>screaming and in  great terror, evidently of being  eaten up  by the
>wolves.  He was  Freud's patient  for years.  To  Freud he  was the  bearer
>of a distinct, exotic culture.  He  wrote in a letter to Zweig, that
>emotional ambivalence was a primitive trait, preserved more in Russians
>than in other nations.   He believed - like almost all Westerners -  in
>the ethnocultural stereotype.   Russia is a place of "otherness",
>strangeness where the most incredible excesses are possible, be they
>political or  sexual.   He didn't  understand  the Russian culture and
>language, so  he totally misinterpreted Sergei's dream .  Through  his
>wolf-dream  Freud formulated the concept  of the  "primal  scene"  a
>central theme on psychoanalytic  theory, which  occurs when. a child views
>his parents having sex.   By the way I' m a great admirer of  Freud's
>works,  especially of  his Interpretation of the Dreams,  despite his
>misinterpretations and faults.
>     As  a child I have had  many   threatening  dreams of   wolves.  I
>have seen  the wolf-dreams  even as  a adult, the last one was  about two
>years ago, but it  was no  more threatening.  You asked, Iulian, whether we
>all on this  list are psychotherapist or psychologist.  I'm a  writer and
>I'm  very interested  of  psyche  in the  cyberspace,  and  especially of
>the  impact of  words and language on  the psyche.  The  genuine
>psychoanalysis is grounded on the  words.  You can't see your  analyst
>face to face,  you only keep talking, and he  or she   says sometimes
>"hmm", but  usually he or she sits silent -  just  as we here  in the
>Psyberlandia!  Seriously  speaking  maybe Lacan was  right  when he said
>that the  unconscious is structured like a language, and that  it
>structured like a person's native language. All the symbolic  material
>related to childhood events is  preserved within the protective covering of
>the  native tongue.

    I wonder how much of what you write below contributes to
misunderstandings of what we write here????  Even though what we see here
appears in English, perhaps that's not the primary language of the writer,
or even if it is,  many of us are from different cultures, with different
beliefs etc.

>  Each language has its  own rules, idioms, sayings and
>phonetic  associations that are  crucial to any  analysis and yet often
>simply untranslatable from one language to other.  So,  it is no wonder,
>that   people in  the cyberspace  misunderstand each others' psyche.
>
>Best regards
>Anita

    Janell

   Wondering out loud!!!!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1998 00:49:55 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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>   You ask the question of  "how do I attend to the tension?"  I don't
> believe that I feel the tension quite as much as you do, while I enjoy my
> on-line time I believe that I take it with a grain of salt. My first career
> (before Psychodrama) was as a computer programmer/systems analyst for a
> large corporation and I always saw the computer as a tool similar to a pen
> or a hammer to be used when necessary. I agree with you that we (all human
> beings) are just at the tip of the iceberg as far as computer technology is
> concerned. The next 100 years are going to be extremely exciting as far as
> technology is concerned, and I would enjoy seeing them evolve (perhaps, I
> will in another lifetime, but that's another story).

The net is what gets me not computers so much.  Before the net it was a tool for
me, to word process, that was it really.  I think that even with no advances in
the tech, the current net would transform everything ... all institutions ...
art ... science and mostly the psyche ... our individual & collective soul ...
so you can see, why thinking like that I felt some tension as I work with the
psyche f2f ... able to do that well, enjoy my work, earn a living.  My online
time actually detracts from my ability to do my day job. Being here in Psyber-L
has definitely enhanced my knowledge of self and of the psyche, I am a better
psychotherapist for it, but too stretched.

>  I guess I don't feel the burning desire that you talk of,  to be in on the
> growing edge. Yes, I'd like to see it, and yes, I wouldn't mind using it,
> but I don't have to be in on it's development. I'll leave that to others.

I come up as "Explorer", "Inventor" or "Architect" when i do any type of
personality test.  There is always that drive , and it won't go away!  Has led
me in the past to set up a commune (which still exists) and alternative school
etc.  Today it is Psybernet ... and the energy for it is fully alive.

>   When I feel too much tension though I take a long walk in nature with my
> Rottweiler and she and I talk of the hectic pace of the world. Usually I
> come back feeling very refreshed and ready to deal with a little more
> tension. I hope this answer helps a little.

We're similar there ... walking the dog and getting into nature does it for me
... especially if it involves a bit of adventure and "exploring" <grin>.  The
stars always put our little struggles and tensions in perspective.


> >I have not read posts (at least not thoroughly) past this one, and have
> >printed them out and out, and will take them away to read.

Now i have read them, and there is a great feast of images and themes and
stories and Psyber-L psynamics to get stuck into!  I will too ... when?


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1998 01:05:09 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: On the wolves
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Janell, Anita, Iulian,


Thanks David Iulian  for bringing your dreams and story here ... marvelous.

Janell wrote in response to Anita:

>     I wonder how much of what you write below contributes to
> misunderstandings of what we write here????  Even though what we see here
> appears in English, perhaps that's not the primary language of the writer,
> or even if it is,  many of us are from different cultures, with different
> beliefs etc.

Please post in your native tongue.  Translation is then possible, by the author
or others or even machines on the net.  Even if others cant read it easily,
sometimes we can see meanings in the etymologies ... perhaps not so in the case
of Rumanian?

We have very good archives here, and so there is no reason not to link a
translation even months later to a post in its original language.

I know just how much the original language means to the psyche ... in my own
therapy and psychodramas I have often reverted to my native Dutch.  For example
my name Wouter in Dutch has connotations that Walter just does not have, as it
was never used in my family ... a way of distancing I guess.

Writing in Dutch here is a possibility, however I consider English my native
written voice, (and spoken as well) as I do not write well in Dutch, though I
recently gave it a go, and got hold of a Dutch spelling checker ... which
flagged almost every word!


Walter
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1998 13:21:19 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Robert

In the following post:

  Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
  Re: What's Happening???
  Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:35:53 -0600

you wrote:


> PSYBER-L, cyberspace, psychology??? The niche is more than these things.
> This place is again, a community of sorts ... people, not a *niche*.
> Finding ourselves together do we exorcise those found to be *wanting*?
> Or, do we continue to exchange words and effect changes in perception of
> self and other?


Robert, do you feel exorcised?  We have been speaking about irritation and
hostility in the silence ... but in that silence do you think that by drawing
lots of attention to the focus-purpose-structure (which I do, people are
exorcised?) we can really only know about those who say it, and perhaps you do?
What is that!


Walter








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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:47:40 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      believe it or not I've been working hard
Comments: To: dfelmeth@together.net
Comments: cc: NETDYNAM@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
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from hoon aka Stephen Calhoun

Folks,

Greetings Vermonters, record biz associates, and other sundry persons who
have or do put up with me.

HOT MUSIC TIP

I'm letting as much of my online karass know: tonight there will be a great
RealAudio concert, live from ClubDada (9pm central time) in Dallas,
presented by my friend and associate Tom Faulkner. All my Vermont buds and
others with whom there is some sort of shared musical affinity: get ready
by downloading the RealAudio player and parking yourself by your computer
'cause, if the connection hums speedily enough, you're all in for a treat.
This musical event comes with my ***highest*** recommendation.

You're in for an hour or so of cajun blues and heartfelt texico toonage,
not dissimilar from Little Feat, the Subdudes, Bonnie Raitt, (I have
stopped calling Tom, "the male Bonnie Raitt") and other great gulf coast
roots rock. Tom himself says his influences are The Meters, Hendrix, James
Brown, (etc.) and he's been deeply influenced.

If you cannot make it, but this still sounds tasty, *I have been working
hard* fomenting Tom's Serrano Records web site. Check it out. His disc
"Lost In the Land of Texico" is aces.

I'd love to here from you, if this hits home.

Hey, my first spam! Wow!

get it?

Stephen aka hoon
========================================

rockin' blues and cajun and grown-up roll:

Tom Faulkner "Lost In the Land of Texico"

web site: http://www.texico.com

RealAudio broadcast 9/10/98 10pm est
from ClubDada in Dallas, Texas
http://www.broadcast.com/music/

"You can't get it, until you've got it."

=========================================

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:12:52 -0600
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Walter and all ...

It's been a little while since I have written here.  I have been busy
with my lecturing and lab supervision and coaching, but that is only
part of the reason for my *silence*.  I have been a little more *vocal*
on the JUNG list, but even that has not seen much attention from me.  I
just don't have the energy for much of this.  I read the posts, few
though they are, and think of responding, plan on responding, only to
find that days have gone by and the response has never been written.
Finally I either delete the messages or mark them with a red flag for
*future* response ... it depends on the mood and the moment.

> > PSYBER-L, cyberspace, psychology??? The niche is more than these things.
> > This place is again, a community of sorts ... people, not a *niche*.
> > Finding ourselves together do we exorcise those found to be *wanting*?
> > Or, do we continue to exchange words and effect changes in perception of
> > self and other?
>
> Hmmm ... I don't know what it is i do ... but your response is sooo
> familiar!  I recall a discussion with Cheryl about this about a year ago

I don't have the energy or the desire to research the discussion.  I do
want to point our that I used the words *ourselves* and *we*, words that
I meant to include not just you and myself but all of us who are *vocal*
here.  I wonder how you read into this "I don't know what I do ..."?

> These are the things that bring us together and keep us together ...
> someone who wanted to talk cars and their inner workings, no matter how
> much we liked them as a person would not be in the right place ... I'm not
> elitist to think that surely?

No.  But for those who come and speak with what they consider to be
dealing with the architecture of cyberspace or the psychological
container that exists within this psyberspace, non-response serves to
shut out, to act as an exorcism by default.

> I have come to love it when i see the familiar people here ... my PCs have
> been giving me endless trouble lately and I feel acutely the gaps between
> access.  It is not the purpose i miss & have feelings about ... it is the
> people.

Interesting how the people come to be the centre rather than the
technology that joins them.  Yet, the technology does impact on the
relationships we develop.  I, too, feel frustration when the computer or
the server prevents my linking in with the various groups of people that
have come to have personal meaning for me.  And then, there is always
the tension between f2f demands on time and the desired time for this
CMC.

> As for helping people into our discussions ... I think it is the
> responsibility of us all.

Yes it is.  When an "other" speaks out to become visible, it is not just
*your* role to serve as *host*.  Hopefully one or more within the group
will *respond* and that would serve as a welcome to the group.  The
files that you have built are very good, Walter.  But, they are static
and do not have the same power as words spoken directly.  Response is
the key.

> Here on the list i think we do a reasonable job of welcoming people ...
> lets make a point of encouraging others to be here, to grasp what we are up
> to.

That is difficult as I'm not all that sure exactly what it is that we
are up to myself though I have spend a considerable amount of time here.

> Do my lines read differently as i say this ... I don't think we need to
> exorcise people, do you think I imply that?

No, this isn't implied or stated ... it just happens and it is about all
of us here.  Do we need to exorcise?  Do we have to limit ourselves?  Do
we have to set boundaries?  I think so.  If we don't do this
consciously, we sure do it unconsciously.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:13:00 -0600
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Judith,

Good to hear from you, Judith.

> Robert if I may jump in here with an experience of late which at least
> resonnates with, Walter, your response (what kind of a sentence is that
> egad)

I'd enjoy that very much.  As for the sentence construction, I didn't
notice it at all until you mentioned it and I wondered what was amiss
... complex sentences for complex people I suppose :)

> ... something is not being fed and
> that something comes from "my group", the place where I "belong" from which
> I have been absent...the acting community here in Cleveland...Sunday I went
> to the Actor's Equity picnic and as so many people said to me "you've come
> home"...

I love this ... I don't have this *home*, have never had this *home* to
go to, to return to.

> ...I am continually enriched by everyone here yet it is not the
> same as when I'm with the birds I flock with

No it isn't.  But as the *creator* or *parent* of the group (or A
group), there is a sense of *home* that is attached.  When the f2f
dimension fails to provide a *home* it is then the CMC dimension that
becomes charged with this energy.

> just cast as Kate in Broadway Bound returning home again

Congrats!  Have fun :)

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1998 15:13:04 -0600
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Anita,

It was good to hear again from you. Listening to you speak about wolves,
I learned.  And, that is what I hope for when coming here.


> I'm a  writer and
> I'm  very interested  of  psyche  in the  cyberspace,  and  especially of
> the  impact of  words and language on  the psyche.

Words are powerful.  The absence of words also have a particular power
in this place that is constructed of words.

> The  genuine
> psychoanalysis is grounded on the  words.  You can't see your  analyst
> face to face,  you only keep talking, and he  or she   says sometimes
> "hmm", but  usually he or she sits silent -  just  as we here  in the
> Psyberlandia!

Other forms of psychoanalysis are as equally as effective, and equally
as powerful with a *participatory* aspect with words that are shared in
an *I-Thou* container.  Words still remain powerful, perhaps becoming
even more so for the tying of the words to the non-verbal aspects of
relation, the client/analyst relationship.

> Each language has its  own rules, idioms, sayings and
> phonetic  associations that are  crucial to any  analysis and yet often
> simply untranslatable from one language to other.  So,  it is no wonder,
> that   people in  the cyberspace  misunderstand each others' psyche.

That is why the dialogues need to continue so that we may build another
language, the language of relation that comes for negotiation as we try
to bridge from *self* to *other*.

Thanks again for your post as it gave mea context in which to wonder
aloud.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:22:33 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Hi Robert...as always good to hear you *good*...off to the Whole Life Expo
here in Cleveland where STephen and I are making our debut in the world of
personal growth, global change spirituality and alternative medicine...not
my home group for sure...very nice people tho so far...
Judith
Oh, there is always making one's own group and seeing who comes, eh?

>Judith,
>
>Good to hear from you, Judith.
>
>> Robert if I may jump in here with an experience of late which at least
>> resonnates with, Walter, your response (what kind of a sentence is that
>> egad)
>
>I'd enjoy that very much.  As for the sentence construction, I didn't
>notice it at all until you mentioned it and I wondered what was amiss
>... complex sentences for complex people I suppose :)
>
>> ... something is not being fed and
>> that something comes from "my group", the place where I "belong" from which
>> I have been absent...the acting community here in Cleveland...Sunday I went
>> to the Actor's Equity picnic and as so many people said to me "you've come
>> home"...
>
>I love this ... I don't have this *home*, have never had this *home* to
>go to, to return to.
>
>> ...I am continually enriched by everyone here yet it is not the
>> same as when I'm with the birds I flock with
>
>No it isn't.  But as the *creator* or *parent* of the group (or A
>group), there is a sense of *home* that is attached.  When the f2f
>dimension fails to provide a *home* it is then the CMC dimension that
>becomes charged with this energy.
>
>> just cast as Kate in Broadway Bound returning home again
>
>Congrats!  Have fun :)
>
>Robert
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 00:58:09 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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JoAnne
In the following post:

  Re: What's Happening???
  Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:26:02 GMT

 Janell wrote:

> >    I hear what you're saying,  but I'm wondering how you interpret
> >hostility or even grains of irritation in the silence????

JoAnne wrote:
> The last thread I participated in, except for welcoming hoon's outing of
> his birth name, Charles, was some psychodrama type thing where I was
> helping a little child, Dos, learn how to swim.  Julienne apparently
> thought that was stupid and expressed her wish that these imaginary people

With this i think, JoAnne you hit on an important thing about "What's been
happening?"

I think the "swimming stuff" was in the middle of something I saw as a more
"major" drama, the "Story of Eros and Psyche" Drama.

I know that several people got deeply involved ... I did to the extent of
reading up the story in "She" ... have i mentioned that?  I did not really like
that version, it did not grab me. I was more involved in the unfolding drama
than it might have appeared ... and attached to the lamp's guidance ... but
where did it go?  The ants came in strongly ... but I could not fit them into
the unfolding plot line.  Then ... whamo ... all that drowning and Dos stuff ...
where was the lamp?

JoAnne ... we could see it all as a huge mess ... or see it as a true enactment
of a drama of Psyber-L ... very messy, but with a life of it's own ... complex.
If that is the case the hostile critical tone belongs in the story:

> >I vote for leaving the swimming assists behind and drowning the
> >whole lot!!!!
> >
> >Anyone else got the heebie jeebies around here these days?
> >
> >Someone please teach these people to swim, for gosh sakes.
> >
> >Whew!

Whose voice might that be in the story of Psyche or is it Dos?  What is
Happening ???

And then whose voice is this in the drama:

> I decided not to waste my time with that any
> further and apparently so did the others.

~~~

Perhaps someone can really place these interactions in the story of a myth.
They do seem like archetypal *roles* in a story ... where is the Lamp to shed
light?

~~~

I think the idea of allowing dramas to happen here is a good one, but i think we
also need to attend to form, so that we don't drown.



Walter








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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1998 09:52:45 -0400
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From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Walter:

  You write:

At 12:58 AM 9/13/98 GMT, you wrote:
>JoAnne
>In the following post:
>
>  Re: What's Happening???
>  Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:26:02 GMT
>
> Janell wrote:
>
>> >    I hear what you're saying,  but I'm wondering how you interpret
>> >hostility or even grains of irritation in the silence????
>
>JoAnne wrote:
>> The last thread I participated in, except for welcoming hoon's outing of
>> his birth name, Charles, was some psychodrama type thing where I was
>> helping a little child, Dos, learn how to swim.  Julienne apparently
>> thought that was stupid and expressed her wish that these imaginary people
>
>With this i think, JoAnne you hit on an important thing about "What's been
>happening?"
>

      I suppose that's been one of the problems for me here, "trying to
figure out (with little input except for the written word) what's going
on???"  I also have some trouble (at times) finding enough time to keep the
thread of a story together and/or understanding what the participants are
trying to say because of influences from the *real* world.
     In the f2f world I rely on so many other factors besides the written
word that perhaps I miss some of the underlying currents in the Psyber-L
world.


>I think the "swimming stuff" was in the middle of something I saw as a more
>"major" drama, the "Story of Eros and Psyche" Drama.
>
>I know that several people got deeply involved ... I did to the extent of
>reading up the story in "She" ... have i mentioned that?  I did not really
like
>that version, it did not grab me. I was more involved in the unfolding drama
>than it might have appeared ... and attached to the lamp's guidance ... but
>where did it go?  The ants came in strongly ... but I could not fit them into
>the unfolding plot line.  Then ... whamo ... all that drowning and Dos
stuff ...
>where was the lamp?
>
>JoAnne ... we could see it all as a huge mess ... or see it as a true
enactment
>of a drama of Psyber-L ... very messy, but with a life of it's own ...
complex.
>If that is the case the hostile critical tone belongs in the story:
>
>> >I vote for leaving the swimming assists behind and drowning the
>> >whole lot!!!!
>> >
>> >Anyone else got the heebie jeebies around here these days?
>> >
>> >Someone please teach these people to swim, for gosh sakes.
>> >
>> >Whew!
>
>Whose voice might that be in the story of Psyche or is it Dos?  What is
>Happening ???
>
>And then whose voice is this in the drama:
>
>> I decided not to waste my time with that any
>> further and apparently so did the others.
>
>~~~
>
>Perhaps someone can really place these interactions in the story of a myth.
>They do seem like archetypal *roles* in a story ... where is the Lamp to shed
>light?
>
>~~~
>
>I think the idea of allowing dramas to happen here is a good one, but i
think we
>also need to attend to form, so that we don't drown.
>
       This part I can understand, and I agree with it, we need to be
careful to avoid drowning. What I mean, however, is to not drown in a
desire to create something that may not be there. Stories may be there, but
they might not have the significance that some attach to them. In other
words, "a duck might just be a duck."

>
>
>Walter
>

    Janell

  Enjoying the results of a single question "What's Happening???"

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:43:15 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Hello Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>, on Sun, 13 Sep 1998 00:58:09
GMT you wrote:

>JoAnne
>In the following post:
>
>  Re: What's Happening???
>  Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:26:02 GMT
>
> Janell wrote:
>
>> >    I hear what you're saying,  but I'm wondering how you interpret
>> >hostility or even grains of irritation in the silence????
>
>JoAnne wrote:
>> The last thread I participated in, except for welcoming hoon's outing of
>> his birth name, Charles, was some psychodrama type thing where I was
>> helping a little child, Dos, learn how to swim.  Julienne apparently
>> thought that was stupid and expressed her wish that these imaginary people
>
>With this i think, JoAnne you hit on an important thing about "What's been
>happening?"
>
>I think the "swimming stuff" was in the middle of something I saw as a more
>"major" drama, the "Story of Eros and Psyche" Drama.
>
>I know that several people got deeply involved ... I did to the extent of
>reading up the story in "She" ... have i mentioned that?  I did not really like
>that version, it did not grab me. I was more involved in the unfolding drama
>than it might have appeared ... and attached to the lamp's guidance ... but
>where did it go?  The ants came in strongly ... but I could not fit them into
>the unfolding plot line.  Then ... whamo ... all that drowning and Dos stuff ...
>where was the lamp?

I guess the ants were there to eat the dead flesh of the story.

>JoAnne ... we could see it all as a huge mess ... or see it as a true enactment
>of a drama of Psyber-L ... very messy, but with a life of it's own ... complex.
>If that is the case the hostile critical tone belongs in the story:
>
>> >I vote for leaving the swimming assists behind and drowning the
>> >whole lot!!!!
>> >
>> >Anyone else got the heebie jeebies around here these days?
>> >
>> >Someone please teach these people to swim, for gosh sakes.
>> >
>> >Whew!
>
>Whose voice might that be in the story of Psyche or is it Dos?  What is
>Happening ???

I really couldn't quite grasp the Psyche and Eros story, so I can't help
you, though I wish I could.  I tried.  When I found something I could
engage in I engaged in it.  Wrong again.

The whole Dos thing seems like an abortion.  I'm not at all familiar with
that kind of exercise, and to have it mocked in such a hostile way, I was
not willing to continue.  I find myself wondering what I'm still here for.

>And then whose voice is this in the drama:
>
>> I decided not to waste my time with that any
>> further and apparently so did the others.

I guess it's the Quitter.  Nobody writes myths or sings songs about the
Quitter.

>Perhaps someone can really place these interactions in the story of a myth.
>They do seem like archetypal *roles* in a story ... where is the Lamp to shed
>light?
>
>~~~
>
>I think the idea of allowing dramas to happen here is a good one, but i think we
>also need to attend to form, so that we don't drown.

Could you explain this more, I'm not sure I understand.  What form would
help?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1998 12:17:35 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Judith,

You made an interesting point which is important to this discussion of
creating discussion groups in cyberspace, groups such as Walter's
PSYBER-L and my JUNG lists.

> ... there is always making one's own group and seeing who comes, eh?

Yes.  And an interesting adventure.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:40:35 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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JoAnne,

> I really couldn't quite grasp the Psyche and Eros story, so I can't help
> you, though I wish I could.  I tried.  When I found something I could
> engage in I engaged in it.  Wrong again.

You set a lot of store by one other person's judgment!  Janell has been saying
wisely that we can make too much of the hidden unstated ... sometimes a duck is
a duck.  Staying *engaged* against the odds, valuing your own spirit ... that is
something I thought you were good at.

I don't mean fighting, you do that ok ( I say that with respect for your ability
to hang in with your truth).  What about just not loosing your thread when
someone does not like what you do.  I am not one to talk, I know that can be
hard ...

> The whole Dos thing seems like an abortion.  I'm not at all familiar with
> that kind of exercise, and to have it mocked in such a hostile way, I was
> not willing to continue.  I find myself wondering what I'm still here for.

Makes sense ... perhaps you are here to be able to keep afloat and even to swim
away in the face of *that* sort of onslaught.

> >And then whose voice is this in the drama:
> >
> >> I decided not to waste my time with that any
> >> further and apparently so did the others.
>
> I guess it's the Quitter.  Nobody writes myths or sings songs about the
> Quitter.

There are plenty of stories with the Quitter Transforms into Winner theme ...

> >~~~
> >
> >I think the idea of allowing dramas to happen here is a good one, but i think we
> >also need to attend to form, so that we don't drown.
>
> Could you explain this more, I'm not sure I understand.  What form would
> help?

I was thinking of *form* in a general way, the canvas in painting, the stage in
theatre.  I had a hope or even expectation that somehow the simple mention of
the Eros and Psyche theme might give a backbone to the flow of a drama here ...
like a tune does in a jazz jamming session.  No such luck really ... though i
have been looking hard.

I think the form would need to be *tighter*  for example a separate list with a
Host, with a definite *purpose* to look at the theme of the myth of Eros and
Psyche.  Perhaps with the instruction that anyone could take on any role in the
story, but would do that in first person, with quotes etc.  A moderation of the
list might help, so that the posts were vetted for legibility and so on.

So that is what i mean by form ... does that make sense?

It does to me, but i also wanted to just trust the process here ... to see what
would happen as we just let it happen.

Someone might *still* see how our *unconscious* processes here have created
something of the Eros and Psyche Myth!  Drowning, Hostility, Silence, Quitting,
and now our Persistent Questioning?  Maybe we are jamming on our theme?


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:58:04 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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On Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:40:35 GMT, you, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>,
wrote:

>JoAnne,
>
>> I really couldn't quite grasp the Psyche and Eros story, so I can't help
>> you, though I wish I could.  I tried.  When I found something I could
>> engage in I engaged in it.  Wrong again.
>
>You set a lot of store by one other person's judgment!  Janell has been saying
>wisely that we can make too much of the hidden unstated ... sometimes a duck is
>a duck.  Staying *engaged* against the odds, valuing your own spirit ... that is
>something I thought you were good at.

It wasn't just one other person's judgment.  I wonder if it was that no one else
wanted to join in opposing that judgment.  I hope I'm not being unfair to Nancy,
because she was supportive, but in that case one person's support was not enough
for me.

>I don't mean fighting, you do that ok ( I say that with respect for your ability
>to hang in with your truth).  What about just not loosing your thread when
>someone does not like what you do.  I am not one to talk, I know that can be
>hard ...

It's much easier if you know what you're doing.  I didn't, and I just didn't
feel like opening anything else up.

>> The whole Dos thing seems like an abortion.  I'm not at all familiar with
>> that kind of exercise, and to have it mocked in such a hostile way, I was
>> not willing to continue.  I find myself wondering what I'm still here for.
>
>Makes sense ... perhaps you are here to be able to keep afloat and even to swim
>away in the face of *that* sort of onslaught.

Could be.

>> >And then whose voice is this in the drama:
>> >
>> >> I decided not to waste my time with that any
>> >> further and apparently so did the others.
>>
>> I guess it's the Quitter.  Nobody writes myths or sings songs about the
>> Quitter.
>
>There are plenty of stories with the Quitter Transforms into Winner theme ...

The story isn't there yet, though!

>> >I think the idea of allowing dramas to happen here is a good one, but i think we
>> >also need to attend to form, so that we don't drown.
>>
>> Could you explain this more, I'm not sure I understand.  What form would
>> help?
>
>I was thinking of *form* in a general way, the canvas in painting, the stage in
>theatre.  I had a hope or even expectation that somehow the simple mention of
>the Eros and Psyche theme might give a backbone to the flow of a drama here ...
>like a tune does in a jazz jamming session.  No such luck really ... though i
>have been looking hard.

Is it that we don't all know the tune, or our ideas of what the tune is are so
different?  Or that the tune is rejected?

I guess finding something we all want to play is not easy.

>I think the form would need to be *tighter*  for example a separate list with a
>Host, with a definite *purpose* to look at the theme of the myth of Eros and
>Psyche.  Perhaps with the instruction that anyone could take on any role in the
>story, but would do that in first person, with quotes etc.  A moderation of the
>list might help, so that the posts were vetted for legibility and so on.
>
>So that is what i mean by form ... does that make sense?

Yes, it does.

>It does to me, but i also wanted to just trust the process here ... to see what
>would happen as we just let it happen.

Which is more like going into a room and starting to sing or play or dance,
instead of the moderately focused jam session you suggest earlier.

>Someone might *still* see how our *unconscious* processes here have created
>something of the Eros and Psyche Myth!  Drowning, Hostility, Silence, Quitting,
>and now our Persistent Questioning?  Maybe we are jamming on our theme?

Or do those belong to another myth?  Any ideas?

Instead of fitting the notes to the tune, fit the tune to the notes.  What tune
fits those notes, and how?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:45:37 GMT
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Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Joanne,

> It wasn't just one other person's judgment.  I wonder if it was that no=
 one else
> wanted to join in opposing that judgment.  I hope I'm not being unfair =
to Nancy,
> because she was supportive, but in that case one person's support was =
not enough
> for me.

The silence in addition to the spoken words felt hostile to you.
It is as if you think of the silence as somehow taking a side in
a battle?  What was the particular (apart from Nancy)
non-response about?  What was happening?  Was there hostility in
that silence!  Oh boy! =20

I'll speak for me ...

Some irritation and anxiety was swilling around at a low level in
my consciousness pit.  I was looking to guidance and light from
the lamp!  Suddenly I could get nothing but underwater bubbles
... the light had gone out perhaps?  There was some discussion
about what was happening to the little Lamp actually.  The
irritation i felt was that we were no longer sticking to the tune
... even the person who started ... led us even into listening to
the tune, Nancy was off on some underwater experience. This is
what, inside myself and in the list, I had said Yes to:

::  We might have our own little production of the Psyche and Eros myth. =
 We
::could each take whatever parts apealed.  Characters could be split (as =
they
::all too often are!)  They could be one sister, 5 sisters or a brother =
instead.

Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:00:59 -0400
=46rom:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama

I was watching and listening and getting lost ... thinking, I
must be a lost character in the drama ... who is that?

There was also a swirl of a different hue in the irritation: the
lack of form for the drama was also present in the structure &
content of the email posts.  I got lost with the number of
iterations:  too many >>> quotes and too much of it, sometimes
whole screen fulls with just one small response at the bottom. I
could not keep up with that easily, though I did read it all and
found the discussion rich ... there were many themes and digs
about the concrete and the abstract, how that relates to gender,
how we have an ecology of memes here, how that relates to the
trees growing to the light and so on.  The whole of that month
reads like a freak tidal wave of the psyche ... no wonder we
drowned.=20

Another hue of irritation I can sense (as I now retrospectively
dive for it) is the whole part I have in the abstract / concrete
discussion, and i guess i feel somehow put down for my love of
form and structure ...=20

So along comes Julienne and is more hostile than me, I have been
more puzzled and passively irritated, however she is more
proactive and argumentative on the same things that i have been
irritated about ... hmmm=20

OK, then I become *really* lost.  This is not just a person
annoyed with some others, this is -- shudder -- Julienne
irritated with Joanne (and perhaps Nancy, Hoon, Judith Robert,
all who had participated in the discussion ...)  I backed off ...
actually I never got that highlightedly *conscious*  to call it a
back off.  I was already in a corner watching bemusedly, the
arising and eruption of the forces we had unleashed among
ourselves.  =20

So that is my silence one more fish in the sea!  Somewhat in awe
of the turbulence.


> >There are plenty of stories with the Quitter Transforms into Winner =
theme ...
>=20
> The story isn't there yet, though!

No.  I think this *processing* we are doing means we have not
seen the end of the story yet!  I do hate those Quitter to Winner
stories if they have gratuitous sentiment and so on ... I don't
have a sense of that here ... authenticity rules.

~~~

> Is it that we don't all know the tune, or our ideas of what the tune is=
 are so
> different?  Or that the tune is rejected?
>=20
> I guess finding something we all want to play is not easy.

I thought the tune was initiated, named, by Nancy, who accurately
grabbed it from the tune we already seemed to be playing ... and
some played along ... Charles did not want to be the Sun for fear
of being in a big project ... I simply said lets play without it
being a *project*  ... actually wanting to not impose *structure*
which on the top of spontaneity.  Not all need to play ... some
did and some did not. =20

In my mind it is all ok, as by being here there is an implicit
agreement to be part of exploring the psyche in this medium ...
we are doing that! And fully, as i see it.

> >It does to me, but i also wanted to just trust the process here ... to=
 see what
> >would happen as we just let it happen.
>=20
> Which is more like going into a room and starting to sing or play or =
dance,
> instead of the moderately focused jam session you suggest earlier.

I had perhaps misread those lines from Nancy above and thought
they created a tighter focus than others did.


> >Someone might *still* see how our *unconscious* processes here have =
created
> >something of the Eros and Psyche Myth!  Drowning, Hostility, Silence, =
Quitting,
> >and now our Persistent Questioning?  Maybe we are jamming on our =
theme?
>=20
> Or do those belong to another myth?  Any ideas?

Good to pursue, no specific ideas, but i notice the amount of
water ... fish ... net?  and the light going out in the water?  =20

> Instead of fitting the notes to the tune, fit the tune to the notes.  =
What tune
> fits those notes, and how?

Questioning!  I am really curious to get a grip on this ... I
think the Psyche and Eros theme might still be there ... the
gender dynamics & *power* struggles, love, the dark ... seem to
be ever present ....


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman                 walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:57:26 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 02:45:37 GMT, you, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>,
wrote:

>Joanne,
>
>> It wasn't just one other person's judgment.  I wonder if it was that no one else
>> wanted to join in opposing that judgment.  I hope I'm not being unfair to Nancy,
>> because she was supportive, but in that case one person's support was not enough
>> for me.
>
>The silence in addition to the spoken words felt hostile to you.
>It is as if you think of the silence as somehow taking a side in
>a battle?  What was the particular (apart from Nancy)
>non-response about?  What was happening?  Was there hostility in
>that silence!  Oh boy!

Another mental picture:

Going into a room, and doing a little playlet with one or two others, and
several other people in the room not doing the play; some watching, some not.
One of the watchers boos or gives an irritated look.

I'm an Introvert, Walter, and performing is already difficult enough, but I
won't do it in those circumstances.  I felt some "performance anxiety" already,
what should I represent, what can I share, what do I not want to say, what will
I try to say anyway.

I say this not to blame others for not saying "go on, go on" as I didn't expect
that, but it meant that it wasn't the time or place for me to continue with the
play.  "Damned (or dammed!) with faint praise" is a good way to put it.

>There was also a swirl of a different hue in the irritation: the
>lack of form for the drama was also present in the structure &
>content of the email posts.  I got lost with the number of
>iterations:  too many >>> quotes and too much of it, sometimes
>whole screen fulls with just one small response at the bottom.

A common list phenomenon!

>OK, then I become *really* lost.  This is not just a person
>annoyed with some others, this is -- shudder -- Julienne
>irritated with Joanne (and perhaps Nancy, Hoon, Judith Robert,
>all who had participated in the discussion ...)  I backed off ...
>actually I never got that highlightedly *conscious*  to call it a
>back off.  I was already in a corner watching bemusedly, the
>arising and eruption of the forces we had unleashed among
>ourselves.

When you saw the Julienne versus JoAnne your eye blinked, you would not see it
if you could avoid seeing it.

>So that is my silence one more fish in the sea!  Somewhat in awe
>of the turbulence.

Yet this is your sea!  I say that not accusingly but wonderingly, and it makes
sense, actually, we are so often lost in our own seas (and navel/navals) in
Psyberia.

>> >There are plenty of stories with the Quitter Transforms into Winner theme ...
>>
>> The story isn't there yet, though!
>
>No.  I think this *processing* we are doing means we have not
>seen the end of the story yet!  I do hate those Quitter to Winner
>stories if they have gratuitous sentiment and so on ... I don't
>have a sense of that here ... authenticity rules.

And not all stories go there.

>> Is it that we don't all know the tune, or our ideas of what the tune is are so
>> different?  Or that the tune is rejected?
>>
>> I guess finding something we all want to play is not easy.
>
>I thought the tune was initiated, named, by Nancy, who accurately
>grabbed it from the tune we already seemed to be playing ... and
>some played along ... Charles did not want to be the Sun for fear
>of being in a big project ... I simply said lets play without it
>being a *project*

This was part of my motivation for quitting, that it was building itself into
something too big for itself, it wanted too much from me, I did not feel up to
carrying it alone.  It was not just Julienne's reaction, that was part but not
all of it, as you say I can stick with things better than that.

>> >Someone might *still* see how our *unconscious* processes here have created
>> >something of the Eros and Psyche Myth!  Drowning, Hostility, Silence, Quitting,
>> >and now our Persistent Questioning?  Maybe we are jamming on our theme?
>>
>> Or do those belong to another myth?  Any ideas?
>
>Good to pursue, no specific ideas, but i notice the amount of
>water ... fish ... net?  and the light going out in the water?

Some ideas:  Pinocchio.  Jonah and the Whale.  The Little Mermaid.  Venus born
of the foam.  Jesus fisher of men.

Water tends to be female, emotional -- are we drowning in emotion as we try to
be dry and logical?  Is the inspiration of the flame going out when swamped by
conflicting emotions?

>> Instead of fitting the notes to the tune, fit the tune to the notes.  What tune
>> fits those notes, and how?
>
>Questioning!  I am really curious to get a grip on this ... I
>think the Psyche and Eros theme might still be there ... the
>gender dynamics & *power* struggles, love, the dark ... seem to
>be ever present ....

Why couch the gender dynamics in gender?  Can they work in other ways?  Why put
us in uniforms based on the contents of the trousers?

-JoAnne

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Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:35:07 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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At 03:57 PM 9/16/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:

>Water tends to be female, emotional -- are we drowning in emotion as we
try to
>be dry and logical?  Is the inspiration of the flame going out when
swamped by
>conflicting emotions?

I think this is a mistake we all make - water is NOT female alone at all, but
as been relegated to that position in contradistinction to "intellect".
Several have commented on the heavy intellectualizing of feelings on this
list -
and the undervaluing of feelings unless expressed through poetry - which,
after all, can also be a way to distance oneself from personal involvement
with emotion.

The reason I objected to the baby-talk story between you and Nancy, JoAnne,
was because genuine emotions and very deep feelings had been rejected
and ridiculed on this list. When that happens, pseudo and primitive emotions,.
such as the baby-talk, tend to emerge. What looks like a play, or a game,
is really
the emotional life insisting on being heard through play-acting. I was
irritated
that you, who are one of those most rejecting of real emotion, were one of
the chief participants in the pseudo-emotional play. It seemed to me that you
were okay with fakey emotional children's games - but not with real adult
emotions.

I was also rather disgusted with Hoon's dismissing of it all as an expression
of the Anima - as if only the women had created this event.

Julienne

PS - Hoon, have you seen that there is a movie coming out - ANTZ? :)

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Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:11:50 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:35:07 -0400, you, Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>,
wrote:

>At 03:57 PM 9/16/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>
>>Water tends to be female, emotional -- are we drowning in emotion as we
>try to
>>be dry and logical?  Is the inspiration of the flame going out when
>swamped by
>>conflicting emotions?
>
>I think this is a mistake we all make - water is NOT female alone at all, but
>as been relegated to that position in contradistinction to "intellect".

Tends to be, is what I wrote.  And I didn't say we should be only dry and
logical, though it looks like when we do there's always someone out there with a
bucket.

>Several have commented on the heavy intellectualizing of feelings on this
>list -
>and the undervaluing of feelings unless expressed through poetry - which,
>after all, can also be a way to distance oneself from personal involvement
>with emotion.

>The reason I objected to the baby-talk story between you and Nancy, JoAnne,
>was because genuine emotions and very deep feelings had been rejected
>and ridiculed on this list. When that happens, pseudo and primitive emotions,.
>such as the baby-talk, tend to emerge. What looks like a play, or a game,
>is really
>the emotional life insisting on being heard through play-acting.

Hmm... so my emotions were insisting on being heard?  And you wanted to stop
that?

>I was
>irritated
>that you, who are one of those most rejecting of real emotion, were one of
>the chief participants in the pseudo-emotional play. It seemed to me that you
>were okay with fakey emotional children's games - but not with real adult
>emotions.

So you were sure these were fakey emotional children's games?  I wonder how you
would know that, that these emotions had no real meaning.

>I was also rather disgusted with Hoon's dismissing of it all as an expression
>of the Anima - as if only the women had created this event.
>
>Julienne
>
>PS - Hoon, have you seen that there is a movie coming out - ANTZ? :)

There's a movie already out with ants in it called Pi.  Web site at
http://www.pithemovie.com.  I liked it, suppose that may mean something
somewhere.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:50:12 -0400
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JoAnne writes,

>>> The whole Dos thing seems like an abortion.  I'm not at all familiar with
>>> that kind of exercise, and to have it mocked in such a hostile way, I was
>>> not willing to continue.  I find myself wondering what I'm still here for.

The incident struck me as a sand castle caringly being created and then
just as suddenly being kicked down.

>It wasn't just one other person's judgment.  I wonder if it was that no
>one else wanted to join in opposing that judgment.  I hope I'm not being
>unfair to
>Nancy, because she was supportive, but in that case one person's support
>was not
>enough for me.

I wrote on August 23,

>Still, the active imagination thread, may be so creative and personal
>as to ring out with a sound completely impossible to listen to, but for the
>participants, it is a very important and depthful "play", or dramatization,
>and also a way of slowly gathering up and learning the new connections
>which fund a very profound feeling: guiding a male child, loving our inner
>masculine; (which is only how I, one of the participants, wishes to put
>it).

***

These events revisit the temenos crumbled during the dream event. It is
perhaps impossible to build a psychologically subtle container, (and that's
my own bias: in favor of strength gained through subtlety,) given the
'form' in part defined by the given structure here.

Does not this kind of subtlety demand discrimination?

As for my feeling about the end of the delicate work signalled by
Julienne's expression of irritation:  I felt * crestfallen, heartbroke*, as
I feel whenever I recognize, am able to recognize, something of essential
value is damaged...

beyond repair.

I am in sympathy with JoAnne, Nancy and Judith, who were all working hard,
bravely, and with the spontaneous, fullness of their feminine beings to
give DOS
life-giving breaths of truth, imperfect as human truth may be...

must be.

***

Stephen

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Date:         Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:41:04 -0400
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>I think this is a mistake we all make - water is NOT female alone at all, but
>as been relegated to that position in contradistinction to "intellect".

In my framing there is water and there is intellect and the two only meet
in head first dives; oh, and sometimes water is just water.

***

Julienne, you wrote,

> What looks like a play, or a game,
>is really
>the emotional life insisting on being heard through play-acting.

Yes. It seems no value judgement is intended the way you cast this
statement. (Interestingly to me, at least, this kind of play-acting is a
very powerful mode of learning that may be focused on the creation of
self-awareness.  It figures in all sorts of therapeutic methods, not the
least of which is that of analytic psychology. As a method I recognize that
it's even *time-honored*. Moreno too, yes? )

In fact, as a novice ant in this particular play act, one of my intentions
was to collaborate on a project for which I felt self-awareness was one of
the goals.

***

But, then, this kind of play-acting irritates you off because JoAnne is a
participant.

>irritated
>that you, who are one of those most rejecting of real emotion, were one of
>the chief participants in the pseudo-emotional play. It seemed to me that you
>were okay with fakey emotional children's games - but not with real adult
>emotions.

It's also odd how we see each other so differently: JoAnne seems, to me, to
honor adult emotions while discriminating their value logically...which is
a very good thing, to me. She seems to be deeply committed to this
balancing act. But what I do not for the life of me understand Julienne, is
that your way of honoring the deep work we were doing was to be blind to it
as such, and then to show your irritation...this seems to be very close to
the accusation you are leveling on JoAnne, i.e. you seemed to reject the
real emotion behind the play-act. Emotion I felt was extremely deep, adult,
and real.

You didn't sense that real emotion, but why  couldn't you leave our process
alone and let us play? I don't get it.

***

And where is the constructive criticism that would have us move on the
promised path from your brutal evaluation to some process, under your
leadership, more promising for us, or at least a process less irritating to
you. (Him?)

***

>I was also rather disgusted with Hoon's dismissing of it all as an expression
>of the Anima - as if only the women had created this event.

Hello? Julienne? Anima? "Anima" last used in a post of mine on  Mon, 1 Jun
1998 and having nothing to do with this event. But, be that as it may, I'm
already aware that your animus doesn't have the most exacting recall.  :-)

(btw, I don't confuse what the anima creates and what women create,
although I am sympathetic with the revision of Jung that posits an anima
aspect in female psychology. However, never have I made the statement you
have attributed to me, 'dismissing of it all as an expression' of any *one*
cause, let alone the anima, or only women. )

***

"irritated that you, who are one of those most rejecting of real emotion,
were one of the chief participants in the pseudo-emotional play." Julienne,
this you express as the reasoning behind your irritation. Still, why not
let JoAnne and the rest of us play? What productive purpose could your
expression possibly have served at the time?

I'm hoping this doesn't turn out to be too provocative a post, Julienne.
I'd really like to understand why your irritation in this case was intended
in a didactic manner to usurp where JoAnne was bravely, honestly at, even
if it irritated to you, even if you're sure she isn't at your level of
insight, or have your magnanimous disposition toward "real emotion".

I don't get it. Help me understand.

Stephen


========



                >-]-]-{
                                 ]  \
                             \- ->^^^/[
                                 /


                                                >-]-]-{
                                                damn, herbie never

was very fast.

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Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:25:12 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: crumbling
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On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 20:50:12 -0400, you, sc <hoon@APK.NET>, wrote:

>JoAnne writes,
>
>>>> The whole Dos thing seems like an abortion.  I'm not at all familiar with
>>>> that kind of exercise, and to have it mocked in such a hostile way, I was
>>>> not willing to continue.  I find myself wondering what I'm still here for.
>
>The incident struck me as a sand castle caringly being created and then
>just as suddenly being kicked down.

So here we are on the beach, Julienne's suggestion at one time for
visualization, where we always seem to end up, at the juncture of water and
land.

>>It wasn't just one other person's judgment.  I wonder if it was that no
>>one else wanted to join in opposing that judgment.  I hope I'm not being
>>unfair to
>>Nancy, because she was supportive, but in that case one person's support
>>was not
>>enough for me.
>
>I wrote on August 23,
>
>>Still, the active imagination thread, may be so creative and personal
>>as to ring out with a sound completely impossible to listen to, but for the
>>participants, it is a very important and depthful "play", or dramatization,
>>and also a way of slowly gathering up and learning the new connections
>>which fund a very profound feeling: guiding a male child, loving our inner
>>masculine; (which is only how I, one of the participants, wishes to put
>>it).

Thank you Stephen, I am sorry I did not hear this before though quite obviously
you wrote it and I should have read it.  I probably just turned the whole thing
off in my mind and missed your words.

>These events revisit the temenos crumbled during the dream event. It is
>perhaps impossible to build a psychologically subtle container, (and that's
>my own bias: in favor of strength gained through subtlety,) given the
>'form' in part defined by the given structure here.
>
>Does not this kind of subtlety demand discrimination?
>
>As for my feeling about the end of the delicate work signalled by
>Julienne's expression of irritation:  I felt * crestfallen, heartbroke*, as
>I feel whenever I recognize, am able to recognize, something of essential
>value is damaged...
>
>beyond repair.
>
>I am in sympathy with JoAnne, Nancy and Judith, who were all working hard,
>bravely, and with the spontaneous, fullness of their feminine beings to
>give DOS
>life-giving breaths of truth, imperfect as human truth may be...
>
>must be.

Thank you again Stephen.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:24:01 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
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Julienne, JoAnne, Stephen, Walter, Nancy,

If nothing else, this introspection has again brought some life to
PSYBER-L.  I must admit that I felt little drawn into this dialogue even
though I had a small part in the drama of DOS.  Listening to JoAnne
speak, I began to understand the drama in a new light and am learning to
appreciate it from this light.  I was waiting for the shoe to fall and
for Julienne to take up the battle pennant versus JoAnne.  And the shoe
fell.  What I didn't expect was Stephen's post.  With the post
"crumbling," my high esteem of him rose steeply.  I am awed by the depth
an honesty of the dialogues.  I do hope that this speaking of others in
the third person isn't taken as an *objectifying* as it isn't meant that
way.  I am simply stating what I understand and feel in relation to all
of this.

Julienne,

In response to the discussion of *water*, you said:

> I think this is a mistake we all make - water is NOT female alone at all, but
> as been relegated to that position in contradistinction to "intellect".

I realise that the word female was used when perhaps feminine would be
more appropriate since feminine attributes are not limited to gender or
to humans. When I read the post, I did see a distinction between eros
and logos, that there was a distinction between the aspects and NOT a
statement about females being divorced from the intellectual or logos
aspect.

> Several have commented on the heavy intellectualizing of feelings on this
> list - and the undervaluing of feelings unless expressed through poetry -
> which, after all, can also be a way to distance oneself from personal
> involvement with emotion.

I'm trying to understand this.  What was the intention of these words?
What are you hoping to communicate to me.  I have to admit a deficit in
my ability to decode the message and ask that you help me understand
what you had intended me (others) to understand.  But then again,
perhaps it is enough that others understand and that I remain clueless.

> The reason I objected to the baby-talk story between you and Nancy, JoAnne,
> was because genuine emotions and very deep feelings had been rejected
> and ridiculed on this list. When that happens, pseudo and primitive emotions,.
> such as the baby-talk, tend to emerge. What looks like a play, or a game,
> is really
> the emotional life insisting on being heard through play-acting. I was
> irritated
> that you, who are one of those most rejecting of real emotion, were one of
> the chief participants in the pseudo-emotional play. It seemed to me that you
> were okay with fakey emotional children's games - but not with real adult
> emotions.

If your feeling were rejected, if you even *felt* that your feelings
were rejected, that is a tragedy of its own.  However, to reject the
feelings of others is not what I would consider an appropriate way of
resolving that tragedy, that trauma.  One does not heal a wound through
wounding another (at least that is my experience).  But then, who am I
to speak, eh Julienne?

> I was also rather disgusted with Hoon's dismissing of it all as an expression
> of the Anima - as if only the women had created this event.

expression of anima (man's soul being expressed)
anima = soul
anima = feminine aspect that shows up within a man
anima does not equal woman

Why the disgust?

Robert

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Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:51:19 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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Subject:      Re: crumbling
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Stephen,

You bring a comprehension and caring  to the discussion that I
find refreshing.

The Dos story ...

> The incident struck me as a sand castle caringly being created and then
> just as suddenly being kicked down.

That is an image I find fitting.  In my probing into my own
experience at the time I could not see it in this way ... I
noticed some kicking in ... among a lot of other kicks.  I
noticed the treading water and drowning ... among a lot of other
treading water and drowning ... your image and respect for it
helps me see it more clearly.


> ***
>
> These events revisit the temenos crumbled during the dream event. It is
> perhaps impossible to build a psychologically subtle container, (and that's
> my own bias: in favor of strength gained through subtlety,) given the
> 'form' in part defined by the given structure here.
>
> Does not this kind of subtlety demand discrimination?

Has the temenos crumbled?  Did it in the dream event?  I have a
sense of a quality here in Psyber-L that has not gone.  As you
know i have some hunger to develop Psybernet ... to do other
projects ... one reason I don't is *time* and I am in the process
of managing it better so that I can, that may take time!  But
there is another reason ... Psyber-L is a place where i have a
psychological investment ... I live here in a way. New ventures
need to respect the *reality* of this place.

How do you think a psychologically more subtle container could be
built ... time to return to the Construction thread that Robert
and I are still in?  I'd love to hear more from you on this.

> As for my feeling about the end of the delicate work signalled by
> Julienne's expression of irritation:  I felt * crestfallen, heartbroke*, as
> I feel whenever I recognize, am able to recognize, something of essential
> value is damaged...

Yes.  I understand that ... was this a feeling among many others?
Is this where the doscrimination (typo left in!) is required ...
I could not do it.  I was in such an upswelling of so many
feelings about the abstraction stuff and the Psyche & Eros drama
that this incident seemed like one of many!

> beyond repair.
>
> I am in sympathy with JoAnne, Nancy and Judith, who were all working hard,
> bravely, and with the spontaneous, fullness of their feminine beings to
> give DOS
> life-giving breaths of truth, imperfect as human truth may be...
>
> must be.

Thanks for that.

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:11:55 -0400
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Stephen you wrote
snipping
<As for my feeling about the end of the delicate work signalled by
Julienne's expression of irritation:  I felt * crestfallen, heartbroke*, as
I feel whenever I recognize, am able to recognize, something of essential
value is damaged...

beyond repair.>

Your sandcastle metaphor resonnates to children playing on the beach...what
I want to say is that the sandcastle may be destroyed but not the people
creating it...I think this is the aspect which is relevant here...the sand
castle was kicked in  as an angry hurt child might do...I didn't take it
personnally...we can always build another...and as in the world of Zen one
just ignores such acts...to acknowledge the act it is to give it power
which is what is sought by the act...so I merely put my attention
elsewhere...as with the Tibentan monks creating the sand mandala this
weekend, when it is over the sand is ritually brushed up and poured in
water...the meaning is in the act of creating...not the product...I know I
have gained from engaging and that can not be destroyed...I am more for the
engagement and particularly was absorbed in your engagement, JoAnne,
knowing this was taking courage, and enjoying your playfulness with Nancy,
who certainly evokes play in me...

<I am in sympathy with JoAnne, Nancy and Judith, who were all working hard,
bravely, and with the spontaneous, fullness of their feminine beings to
give DOS
life-giving breaths of truth, imperfect as human truth may be...

must be.>

and as the song says "and they can't take that away from me...oh, no, they
can't take that away from me"
Judith

***

Stephen

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Date:         Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:50:32 -0600
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Stephen aka HooN,

Sand castles ... playing and creating ... an outlet for unconscious ...
another voice.  This is a fine place to do this building, a place that
is built of gossamer threads of invisibility that links, connects, and
unites ... this cyberspace.

> ... a sand castle caringly being created and then
> just as suddenly being kicked down.

and the resiliency of the builders and the kickers to re-engage and
re-orchestrate in order to test the boundaries of the container within
which the building and the kicking take place

> These events revisit the temenos crumbled during the dream event.

And that temenos ... ?  Has it pulled itself together in your opinion?
Has it left scars that can never be healed?  Or, was there really a
crumbling of temenos at all?  The temenos refers to the container more
so than the contained ... and the container is PSYBER-L even though
DREAM-L appeared to be a separate list.  I see our list here as
stronger, strong enough to take these kicks, and combats that have come
up to our conscious attention from our collective unconscious.

> Does not this kind of subtlety demand discrimination?

It does beg our attention, begs to be noticed and thus integrated.

> I felt * crestfallen, heartbroke*, as
> I feel whenever I recognize, am able to recognize, something of essential
> value is damaged...

Perhaps the scarring is necessary like the scarring of Plains Cree
braves during the Sun Lodge ceremonies was considered a necessary act to
enable the transformation to maturity.  Suffering does serve, the
wounding perhaps, essential.

> beyond repair.

an absolute?  I don't think so, Stephen.  And, with all my heart, I hope
not.  There is much to be rescued in all of the participants, for all of
the participants in this drama including the one who brought the sand
castle back to earth, a natural act over time anyway ... wind, water ...

Robert

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Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:47:53 GMT
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Judith,

I am inspired by what you write ...

> ...I didn't take it
> personnally...we can always build another...and as in the world of Zen one
> just ignores such acts...to acknowledge the act it is to give it power
> which is what is sought by the act...

This is a very conscious level of *ignoring* ... not like my
experience as JoAnne correctly pointed out, which was more like a
withdrawal ... semi-conscious ... not commendable at all!

I have a sense that the *silence* in such cases also "gives
power"  and in the context here can also seem confusing, as it
was to JoAnne ... there is very little to distinguish the
conscious ignoring from my overwhelmed state ... or from active
collusion with hostility, which, (correct me if I am wrong here)
is how JoAnne *felt* it.

I suddenly feel a little wave of paranoia ... so often what I say
here is not responded to directly ... I don't think I take it
personally ... i try not to ... it can be hard to do.  An example
is my wave of self disclosure about my experience in the "tidal
wave of the psyche"  ...

My experience of the *whole of the period* (July 98?) is not of
crumbling, or of specific instances, or even individuals,
standing out, but more of a rather intense and critical climate
around many creative ventures, none of which really survived (so
far), but were overcome by the sum of the parts.  I *assume* it
is an ok contribution, and that the silence is one of reflection
... but perhaps it feels hostile to some and they are offering me
a Zen silence <grin>??

Janell asked on August 21 ... is the list dead?  Perhaps it is
more that we engaged in creativity, and the water washed it away
... and the experience, not the product is what matters, we as
people live on ... wiser?

Walter






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:40:35 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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JoAnne,

> >What was happening?  Was there hostility in
> >that silence!  Oh boy!
>
> Another mental picture:
>
> Going into a room, and doing a little playlet with one or two others, and
> several other people in the room not doing the play; some watching, some not.
> One of the watchers boos or gives an irritated look.

What revelations as we explore the silence ... an awful picture.
As you hear others speak of that time, Stephen and Judith, with
their experience, and mine too perhaps, does that change
anything?  Retrospectively as it were?


> I'm an Introvert, Walter, and performing is already difficult enough, but I
> won't do it in those circumstances.  I felt some "performance anxiety" already,
> what should I represent, what can I share, what do I not want to say, what will
> I try to say anyway.
>
> I say this not to blame others for not saying "go on, go on" as I didn't expect
> that, but it meant that it wasn't the time or place for me to continue with the
> play.  "Damned (or dammed!) with faint praise" is a good way to put it.

The occasional Bravo! would have been nice though!  I want to do
more of it!

~~~

> >There was also a swirl of a different hue in the irritation: the
> >lack of form for the drama was also present in the structure &
> >content of the email posts.  I got lost with the number of
> >iterations:  too many >>> quotes and too much of it, sometimes
> >whole screen fulls with just one small response at the bottom.
>
> A common list phenomenon!

One I would love to see us attend to more.  I am working on
developing a FAQ on email style ... and such things might help.
Does any one know of some already out there?

~~~

> >OK, then I become *really* lost.  This is not just a person
> >annoyed with some others, this is -- shudder -- Julienne
> >irritated with Joanne (and perhaps Nancy, Hoon, Judith Robert,
> >all who had participated in the discussion ...)  I backed off ...
> >actually I never got that highlightedly *conscious*  to call it a
> >back off.  I was already in a corner watching bemusedly, the
> >arising and eruption of the forces we had unleashed among
> >ourselves.
>
> When you saw the Julienne versus JoAnne your eye blinked, you would not see it
> if you could avoid seeing it.

I just posted an email about silence in response to what i had
written, and here is your response, its been here for days ...
strange that I should *discount* it like that ... I do appreciate
your quick reply and it came when I had no time to respond or
reflect ...

You are right, about the blink.  I am conscious Now!  Stephen
mentioned the word *discriminating*  ....  to be fully here cant
be done with out real attention and care.  I do not want to
apologise for being distracted by real life at times -- I think
that is a big factor in all of this.


> >So that is my silence one more fish in the sea!  Somewhat in awe
> >of the turbulence.
>
> Yet this is your sea!  I say that not accusingly but wonderingly, and it makes
> sense, actually, we are so often lost in our own seas (and navel/navals) in
> Psyberia.

It is, yet I also look at that months posts and I have a sense
that *tidal wave* and turbulence are more apt than say *trickle*
or drought ...

I like to own my experience and not say that it was done to me,
yet I also like to think I am not out of touch with reality.
perhaps the metaphor of being on the edge between the sand and
the water fits here.

~~~

> >No.  I think this *processing* we are doing means we have not
> >seen the end of the story yet!  I do hate those Quitter to Winner
> >stories if they have gratuitous sentiment and so on ... I don't
> >have a sense of that here ... authenticity rules.
>
> And not all stories go there.

Where were you thinking?

~~~


> This was part of my motivation for quitting, that it was building itself into
> something too big for itself, it wanted too much from me, I did not feel up to
> carrying it alone.  It was not just Julienne's reaction, that was part but not
> all of it, as you say I can stick with things better than that.

Yes, understandable.  I had a sense that we needed a lead from a
facilitatior ... and still sometimes feel *responsible* when i
don't tale on that role.  Yet different people took on aspects of
it at times.

~~~

> >> >Someone might *still* see how our *unconscious* processes here have created
> >> >something of the Eros and Psyche Myth!  Drowning, Hostility, Silence, Quitting,
> >> >and now our Persistent Questioning?  Maybe we are jamming on our theme?
> >>
> >> Or do those belong to another myth?  Any ideas?
> >
> >Good to pursue, no specific ideas, but i notice the amount of
> >water ... fish ... net?  and the light going out in the water?
>
> Some ideas:  Pinocchio.  Jonah and the Whale.  The Little Mermaid.  Venus born
> of the foam.  Jesus fisher of men.

I think this sort of exploring will get us there!


> Water tends to be female, emotional -- are we drowning in emotion as we try to
> be dry and logical?  Is the inspiration of the flame going out when swamped by
> conflicting emotions?

The questions make sense to me ...

The whole thing about the feminine and masculine being aspects of
both men and women is important ... but I see it as more of a
side issue to your central question ... why does the flame go out
(if it did).  How is it that we loose the plot? Do we need a
better harmony of feeling and thought?

~~~


> >> Instead of fitting the notes to the tune, fit the tune to the notes.  What tune
> >> fits those notes, and how?
> >
> >Questioning!  I am really curious to get a grip on this ... I
> >think the Psyche and Eros theme might still be there ... the
> >gender dynamics & *power* struggles, love, the dark ... seem to
> >be ever present ....
>
> Why couch the gender dynamics in gender?  Can they work in other ways?  Why put
> us in uniforms based on the contents of the trousers?


I thought i was summing up rather than advocating here ...

I think that the rel between the intellect and the heart is
something we have in our personalities.  As we grapple with it,
our own dynamics can be mirrored here in the group, and it can
take a gender form here ... it does at times.  I wish we could
avoid it.



Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:47:55 GMT
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Robert,

> If nothing else, this introspection has again brought some life to
> PSYBER-L.

We interact collaborate ... then we have (relative) silence ...
and now we reflect on the process ... this happens over months.
I think it has happened several times over the years.  It is
hard, especially for new people I imagine to make sense of it all
... yet it is right on target with the stated purpose of the
list.  I find it intriguing that this is so, because at times I
loose sight of what we are up to.


Walter





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman
Counsellor & Psychotherapist
Harley Chambers
PO Box 13 543
Christchurch NZ
Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
walter@psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:14:19 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: crumbling
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Judith, who wrote wisely, all,

>I know I
>have gained from engaging and that can not be destroyed...I am more for the
>engagement and particularly was absorbed in your engagement, JoAnne,
>knowing this was taking courage, and enjoying your playfulness with Nancy,
>who certainly evokes play in me...

Yes.

btw, I did walk by the mandala at one point and wondered what kind of stir
would be caused if I belly flopped right on top of it.

***

>can't take that away from me"

No, the experience cannot be taken away. Sort of, the zen take was
realized. There is also a creatively configured tension between detachment
(which makes experience less the cognitive residue of enactment and more
the essence of 'going through', being,) and the motion of our affectual
commitment, our passion. This opposition is different. And differently
profound just because it is tense.

We might presume Buddhist monks working on a mandala all to be meditating
or in a zen state or maybe it is simply a disciplined and practiced effort,
perhaps an effort for show.

Intention again...

***

The affectual report, (example: my crestfalleness,) counts for this: an
echo of what might be termed the attribution of the project, what it
concerned, how it engaged our passions consciously or unconsciously. Such
personal reports are also the marker of time, and also mark the initiation
and nascence and everything in between those inchoate points and the
terminus, which, in the case of the mandala, is hopefully after it is
built, and in the case of the sand castle is at that point when it is seen
that even the wave action recedes according to the cycle of tides; the
point when another cycle is implicated and another sand castle

is lovingly built.

***

Stephen


Three times I have seen the lake / of the universe overflowing.
Once, I remember seeing / the only existent place / as a whirling without form,
and once, as a bridge over this / that is now Kashmir,
and seven times, I saw the whole / as emptiness

(Lalla)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:32:09 -0400
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Robert, all,

Yo!

***

>And that temenos ... ?  Has it pulled itself together in your opinion?

I don't see the temenos personified. It is to me more accurate to see the
containment here more in terms of a creative field holding our working and
playing in its midst.

It is the unconscious and the complexes that cause the most trouble, but,
we don't seem to have that resilient, subtle containment that aspects
temenos.

Truly, no matter. Temenos seems to happen as a matter of grace.

***

>Has it left scars that can never be healed?

No, not for me. A scar is a sign of healing. Neither have events left
wounds that have not healed.

***

>Suffering does serve, the
>wounding perhaps, essential.

My goodness; no doubt! Certainly you imply here conscious suffering, or
conscious redemption in the aftermath of unconscious suffering. Or?

Obviously even the most unconscious act, perhaps the push over the edge our
complexes sometimes provide, is some kind of symptom.

>> beyond repair.
>
>an absolute?

Many mandalas, castles washed away; many more to be created.

I'm sensing we are quite close in our feelings on these matters, Robert.

Onward, then...

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 01:58:44 -0400
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Walter, all,

>How do you think a psychologically more subtle container could be
>built ... time to return to the Construction thread that Robert
>and I are still in?  I'd love to hear more from you on this.

I don't know about returning to the construction thread! :-)

***

I wonder if the subtle container may be first predicated on something as
solid and simple as the golden rule?

***

Judith and I just returned from a fantastic three days spent at the first
visit of The Whole Life Expo to Cleveland, insinuating squareONE:
experiential toolmakers under the cover of her beautiful handmade papers,
the most beautiful stuff in the whole show, next to the mandala.

Judith is my mentor on 'holding space'. I'm learning how to do it. For two
days I used the excuse of being exhausted to withdraw and expend my self in
a measured way, but then she amped the lesson on the last day, and I
discovered that tired or not, by just jumping into my calling, and my
natural 'engager' (who isn't really shy, but is passionately eager!) I was
able to hold the engagement, play with those open to playing, (complete
strangers literally drawn out of the sea of persons passing by our booth,)
and be both discriminating to the wonderful stuff unfolding out of the
engagement with a man or woman or small group, while being somewhat
radically unconcerned with anything else, least of all my own presentation.

***

Several sensings to toss to you Walter and anybody else interested in this
thread:

holding space
engagement
jumping into our calling
discriminating unfolding
radical unconcern

***

One quasi Jungian riff on *radical unconcern*: I always thought it more apt
to say "He who hesitates is found."

Radical unconcern is two-sided. One side is the personal attempt not to be
run, operated by the complex or its voice. Sometimes this kind of unconcern
requires concentrated hesitation.

The other is a sort of non-attachment and being in the moment that centers
the process; it is an attitude of caring unconcern that allows for
openness, novelty, creativity...and it is not judgemental

but very discriminating.

Anything to chew on, Walter, amongst all this speculating of mine?

***

Stephen

ps - I'm reminded of Simon; Bohm's ideas about dialogue...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 08:11:55 -0400
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All,
received this from a friend and wanted to pass it on to us
Judith
PS my particular favorite is about the broccoli:-)

> WISDOM
>
> > I've learned that I like my teacher because she cries when we sing
> > "Silent Night."
> > Age 6
> >
> > I've learned that you can't hide a piece of broccoli in a glass of
> > milk.
> > Age 7
> >
> > I've learned that when I wave to people in the country, they stop what
> > they are doing and wave back.
> > Age 9
> >
> >
> > I've learned that just when I get my room the way I like it, Mom makes
> > me clean it up.
> > Age 13
> >
> >
> > I've learned that if you want to cheer yourself up, you should try
> > cheering someone else up.
> > Age 14
> >
> > I've learned that although it's hard to admit it, I'm secretly glad my
> > parents are strict with me.
> > Age 15
> >
> >
> > I've learned that silent company is often more healing than words of
> > advice.
> > Age 24
> >
> >
> > I've learned that brushing my child's hair is one of life's great
> > pleasures.
> > Age 26
> >
> > I've learned that wherever I go, the worlds worst drivers have
> > followed me there.
> > Age 29
> >
> > I've learned that if someone says something unkind about me, I must
> > live so that no one will believe it.
> > Age 39
> >
> > I've learned that there are people who love you dearly but just don't
> > know how to show it.
> > Age 41
> >
> > I've learned that you can make someone's day by simply sending them a
> > little card.
> > Age 44
> >
> >
> > I've learned that the greater a person's sense of guilt, the greater
> > his need to cast blame on others.
> > Age 46
> >
> >
> > I've learned that children and grandparents are natural allies.
> > Age 47
> >
> > I've learned that singing "Amazing Grace" can lift my spirits for
> > hours.
> > Age 49
> >
> > I've learned that motel mattresses are better on the side away from
> > the phone.
> > Age 50
> >
> >
> > I've learned that you can tell a lot about a man by the way he handles
> > these three things: a rainy day, lost luggage and tangled Christmas
> tree
> > lights.
> > Age 52
> >
> >
> > I've learned that keeping a vegetable garden is worth a medicine
> > cabinet full of pills.
> > Age 52
> >
> > I've learned that regardless of your relationship with your parents,
> > you miss them terribly after they die.
> > Age 53
> >
> > I've learned that making a living is not the same thing as making a
> > life.
> > Age 58
> >
> >
> > I've learned that if you want to do something positive for your
> > children, try to improve your marriage.
> > Age 61
> >
> > I've learned that life sometimes  gives you a second chance.
> > Age 62
> >
> > I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with a catcher's mitt
> > on both hands.  You need to be able to throw something back.
> > Age 64
> >
> >
> > I've learned that if you pursue happiness, it will elude you.  But if
> > you focus on your family, the needs of others, your work, meeting new
> > people, and doing the very best you can, happiness will find you.
> > Age 65
> >
> >
> > I've learned that whenever I decide something with kindness, I usually
> > make the right decision.
> > Age 66
> >
> >
> > I've learned that everyone can use a prayer.
> > Age 72
> >
> > I've learned that it pays to believe in miracles.  And to tell the
> > truth, I've seen several.
> > Age 73
> >
> > I've learned that even when I have pains, I don't have to be one.
> > Age  82
> >
> > I've learned that every day you should reach out and touch someone.
> > People love that human touch-holding hands, a warm hug, or just a
> friendly
> > pat on the back.
> > Age 85
> >
> >
> > I've learned that I still have a lot to learn.
> > Age 92
> >

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:12:42 -0400
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Walter,
much to ponder in the flurry of posts yet something came up for me with
your comment

>Judith,
>
>I am inspired by what you write ...
>
>> ...I didn't take it
>> personnally...we can always build another...and as in the world of Zen one
>> just ignores such acts...to acknowledge the act it is to give it power
>> which is what is sought by the act...
>
>This is a very conscious level of *ignoring* ... not like my
>experience as JoAnne correctly pointed out, which was more like a
>withdrawal ... semi-conscious ... not commendable at all!

I felt the moment of destruction and then because I live in my process I
use every opportunity to practice...to explore my own beingness in
relationship...the tension I had to enter and shift was to explore what
affect my silence might have for the group...to explore my responsibility
to the engagement...to explore within that moment whatwere the levels of
response...then I heard my mentor in my head saying as she always did
"trust the process" so my choice was to hold my own space and response
within my own integrity and to trust everyone here which btw has increased
enormously over the past few months for me...the trick I've learned through
the years of this is to take one step at a time and to sense when an action
will be the next action to take to move through the process and not to get
ahead of myself...to hold loving kindness and to hold accountability my own
included which could be interpreted as an illogical pairing...

>
>I have a sense that the *silence* in such cases also "gives
>power"

Yes, Walter, I looked at that possibility when I contemplated my
response...however, if I may, that infers an investment in the perception
by the actor...in other words why not let the actor think what they want,
they will anyway... what I came to was that it was MY knowing of my silence
which was the point, NOT how it might be interpreted...if it appeared the
actor had power over then so be it...I know within me what my response
became......and I trust that how I hold a given situation effects the
situation energetically...

 and in the context here can also seem confusing, as it
>was to JoAnne ... there is very little to distinguish the
>conscious ignoring from my overwhelmed state ... or from active
>collusion with hostility, which, (correct me if I am wrong here)
>is how JoAnne *felt* it.

Yes and in the confusion lies the source of the clarity...again if I may,
it becomes a consciousness about how one chooses to hold it within any
given point...to go deeper into the confusion leads to the way out in my
view...I sense everyone here holding their reactionresponse to the act
within a greater context as you pointed out from your "overwhelmed
state"...therefore it is not the act in particular, but the act as a
catalyst and in that framing it becomes less destructive and more
constructive personally...an opportunity given...and in that case there are
unintended consequences emerging from the act itself which ironically
become a source of sustenance...something learned about self, an
opportunity to take the *high road* as a friend likes to say...what I
knewknow is that I cannot engage the source of the act...I have no impetus
to engage the act and actor in that context based in what I've learned here
in the past...

>
>I suddenly feel a little wave of paranoia ... so often what I say
>here is not responded to directly ... I don't think I take it
>personally ... i try not to ... it can be hard to do.  An example
>is my wave of self disclosure about my experience in the "tidal
>wave of the psyche"  ...
>
>My experience of the *whole of the period* (July 98?) is not of
>crumbling, or of specific instances, or even individuals,
>standing out, but more of a rather intense and critical climate
>around many creative ventures, none of which really survived (so
>far), but were overcome by the sum of the parts.  I *assume* it
>is an ok contribution, and that the silence is one of reflection
>... but perhaps it feels hostile to some and they are offering me
>a Zen silence <grin>??

Yeah the Zen silence :-)I am often at a loss to relate to how those here
are responding so for me this brings an opportunity to learn...I don't have
a response to hostility for the most part...well, maybe a more accurate
reflection is that I don't focus on the hostility but on what the hostility
is bringing...again I think this is because of my focus on learning and
curiosity which is not from a therapist's point of connection where there
is something to be healed...I readily note that the hostility and the act
can be decoded from that perspective...I remember thinking the first time I
engaged here that I was going to be scrutinized by therapists which was
scary given my life path and wondered to Stephen if I would have the
capability to engage without getting enraged based on my very biased but
experiencially informed perspective...he assured me that wouldn't be the
case...my response for months was that in exploring the psyche there was a
definite focus on what is wrong...the psychological undercurrent that
something has to be fixed...I am still observing this current and my bias
has lessened over time...I think there is something there in the tension
around abstraction...
>
>Janell asked on August 21 ... is the list dead?  Perhaps it is
>more that we engaged in creativity, and the water washed it away
>... and the experience, not the product is what matters, we as
>people live on ... wiser?
>
>Walter

You see, Walter, I never see anything as dead only evolving, mutating,
moving into a renewed form...and yes, if one's intension is to be wiser
then the silence often serves this by giving time for learning...

Lots of words but I think it is my overcompensating to your comment about
the aspect of your sometimes experience of non specific response
Much respect for all of us
Judith

PS Stephen is this when you bring the cartoon in:
Q: What do you want in your life?
A: To be outrageously happy...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman
>Counsellor & Psychotherapist
>Harley Chambers
>PO Box 13 543
>Christchurch NZ
>Phone: (643) 377 1206  Fax: (643) 377 1207
>walter@psybernet.co.nz
>
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Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:26:59 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: crumbling
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Stephen,
>
>btw, I did walk by the mandala at one point and wondered what kind of stir
>would be caused if I belly flopped right on top of it.

Their reponse would have been non response...they're Buddhists and also
irreverant...noting the BurgerKing runs for meat...the crowd probably would
have been appalled and lynched you :-) of course I wouldn't want your Karma
teehee
>***
>
>>can't take that away from me"
>
>No, the experience cannot be taken away. Sort of, the zen take was
>realized. There is also a creatively configured tension between detachment
>(which makes experience less the cognitive residue of enactment and more
>the essence of 'going through', being,) and the motion of our affectual
>commitment, our passion. This opposition is different. And differently
>profound just because it is tense.
>
>We might presume Buddhist monks working on a mandala all to be meditating
>or in a zen state or maybe it is simply a disciplined and practiced effort,
>perhaps an effort for show.

All of the above tho it is respectful most at its core...and with an
intention of bringing awareness...the sweeping up prematurely would have
brought another experience
>
>Intention again...
>
>***
>
>The affectual report, (example: my crestfalleness,) counts for this: an
>echo of what might be termed the attribution of the project, what it
>concerned, how it engaged our passions consciously or unconsciously. Such
>personal reports are also the marker of time, and also mark the initiation
>and nascence and everything in between those inchoate points and the
>terminus, which, in the case of the mandala, is hopefully after it is
>built, and in the case of the sand castle is at that point when it is seen
>that even the wave action recedes according to the cycle of tides; the
>point when another cycle is implicated and another sand castle
>
>is lovingly built.
I think if I am getting what you are saying is that there is a different
sensability, yours, from mine...it also could be my experience from the
theatre where I had concretized experiences over 20 years of letting go of
amazingly full experiences and those which never reached their mark
>Stephen
>
>
>Three times I have seen the lake / of the universe overflowing.
>Once, I remember seeing / the only existent place / as a whirling without form,
>and once, as a bridge over this / that is now Kashmir,
>and seven times, I saw the whole / as emptiness
>
>(Lalla)
Thanks for this
Judith
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Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:52:00 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      breath Eros and Psyche

Hello Friends,  It's good to read your familiar 'voices', all so caring and
distinct, again.  I seem to hear the gentle ringing of pure silver bells in
the world wide wind.
  I haven't forgotten or abandoned our project.  And Little Lamp (who's been
a little miffed with me over the Stock Market) says it's time I shared
where I'm at with it and inquired where each of you are.

  Little Lamp is not alone.  She has a new friend, a firefly who has taken
shelter with us against the coming of winter.  This particular firefly was
named ToAndFro by her swarm, but we call her To for short.  To has been
reading over my shoulder and listening to Little Lamp and me talk about the
myth and you all, and she has formed some notions which she says I am to
share with you.

  These are To's casting notions:

  Aphrodite: Julienne (and Anita?)
  Psyche: Meeseo (tho we all feel she may have some trouble obeying the
Tower's seeming heartless orders.)
  The Tower: Walter
  Eros: JoAnne (with an assist from Simon?)

  We already have our eagle, ants and mistress of the props.  Oh, oh, yes,
Dear. And Little Lamp.

  I share these flashes from To for your consideration without comment or
recommendation.  We'd like to know how you all feel about it.

  As for 'WHERE' I am.  I seem to have been on the rocky path to the
Underworld ever since the wax was spilled on that most delicate of parts.
Little Lamp says that it definitely was 'wax' not oil and that she had
nothing to do with it save to shriek a warming which came too late.
  Perhaps others of you are at other milestones?  Back with Psyche's family
as dad was making his decision?  Enjoying the pleasures of Eros' palace
before the great awakening?  Steaming with The Divine Mom as she discovered
how Sonny had thwarted her plans for her rival?

  On another subject:  Dos was pretty hurt about his aborted swimming lesson.
But he's always been a forgiving little boy so he moved on and found another
way to swim.  He's grown up a lot since we were all last together.  He's
quite the handsome young man now.  Bear is very glad of his company since
much as he loves 'us girls' he prefers not to be the only teenage guy in
residence.

  Love to all,  Nancy

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Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:19:46 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: crumbling
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On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 02:47:53 GMT, you, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>,
wrote:

>Judith,
>
>I am inspired by what you write ...
>
>> ...I didn't take it
>> personnally...we can always build another...and as in the world of Zen one
>> just ignores such acts...to acknowledge the act it is to give it power
>> which is what is sought by the act...
>
>This is a very conscious level of *ignoring* ... not like my
>experience as JoAnne correctly pointed out, which was more like a
>withdrawal ... semi-conscious ... not commendable at all!
>
>I have a sense that the *silence* in such cases also "gives
>power"  and in the context here can also seem confusing, as it
>was to JoAnne ... there is very little to distinguish the
>conscious ignoring from my overwhelmed state ... or from active
>collusion with hostility, which, (correct me if I am wrong here)
>is how JoAnne *felt* it.

More like, here it goes again, when Julienne and JoAnne start in on each other,
we don't want to be involved because it gets too confusing and messy and never
seems to end.  Perhaps there is or was some hostility there, but I'm seeing it
as more of a weariness now.

I think now that I could have been more forthcoming about the reaction I had to
Julienne's scorn.  I did reply, but in a rather defensive way, defensive of what
I was doing, instead of addressing her real content, which was hostility.

I don't like to engage Julienne's hostility, but I feel that's the only handle
she offers me.  And in this case I did not take her up on the offer.  I can't
claim any highly evolved reasons for doing so.  I think I felt like I might be a
little in the clear here and then it turned out I wasn't.  I felt like something
better might be happening in Psyberia here for me and then it fell apart, and I
was afraid to go forward, afraid to go back.

>I suddenly feel a little wave of paranoia ... so often what I say
>here is not responded to directly ... I don't think I take it
>personally ... i try not to ... it can be hard to do.  An example
>is my wave of self disclosure about my experience in the "tidal
>wave of the psyche"  ...
>
>My experience of the *whole of the period* (July 98?) is not of
>crumbling, or of specific instances, or even individuals,
>standing out, but more of a rather intense and critical climate
>around many creative ventures, none of which really survived (so
>far), but were overcome by the sum of the parts.  I *assume* it
>is an ok contribution, and that the silence is one of reflection
>... but perhaps it feels hostile to some and they are offering me
>a Zen silence <grin>??
>
>Janell asked on August 21 ... is the list dead?  Perhaps it is
>more that we engaged in creativity, and the water washed it away

If we're lucky, we're not just dead, we're rotting!  Actively.  I think that's
been happening to me, the events festered on the back burner since then.

>... and the experience, not the product is what matters, we as
>people live on ... wiser?

Maybe sadder too, but in a more realistic way.

-j

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:55:40 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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At 11:11 PM 9/16/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:35:07 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>,
>wrote:
>
>>At 03:57 PM 9/16/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>
>>>Water tends to be female, emotional -- are we drowning in emotion as we
>>try to
>>>be dry and logical?  Is the inspiration of the flame going out when
>>swamped by
>>>conflicting emotions?
>>
>>I think this is a mistake we all make - water is NOT female alone at all,
but
>>as been relegated to that position in contradistinction to "intellect".
>
>Tends to be, is what I wrote.  And I didn't say we should be only dry and
>logical, though it looks like when we do there's always someone out
>there with a bucket.

Balance...:)

>>Several have commented on the heavy intellectualizing of feelings on this
>>list -
>>and the undervaluing of feelings unless expressed through poetry - which,
>>after all, can also be a way to distance oneself from personal involvement
>>with emotion.
>
>>The reason I objected to the baby-talk story between you and Nancy, JoAnne,
>>was because genuine emotions and very deep feelings had been rejected
>>and ridiculed on this list. When that happens, pseudo and primitive
emotions,.
>>such as the baby-talk, tend to emerge. What looks like a play, or a game,
>>is really the emotional life insisting on being heard through play-acting.

>Hmm... so my emotions were insisting on being heard?  And you wanted
>to stop that?

Were they your emotions? If they were, you were hiding behind a
character rather thjan owning them.

>>I was irritated that you, who are one of those most rejecting of real
>> emotion, were one of the chief participants in the pseudo-emotional
>>play. It seemed to me that you were okay with fakey emotional
>>children's games - but not with real adult emotions.

>So you were sure these were fakey emotional children's games?
>I wonder how you would know that, that these emotions had no
>real meaning.

They may have had some meaning, JoAnne - but why you would
be accepting of acting out emotions, and not of real emotions in
someone else, is perhaps a question to be asked.


>>I was also rather disgusted with Hoon's dismissing of it all as an
expression
>>of the Anima - as if only the women had created this event.
>>
>>Julienne
>>
>>PS - Hoon, have you seen that there is a movie coming out - ANTZ? :)
>
>There's a movie already out with ants in it called Pi.  Web site at
>http://www.pithemovie.com.  I liked it, suppose that may mean something
>somewhere.

Saw it last week - feel asleep in it. :)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:18:03 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
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At 06:19 PM 9/18/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:

>More like, here it goes again, when Julienne and JoAnne start in on each
other,
>we don't want to be involved because it gets too confusing and messy and
never
>seems to end.  Perhaps there is or was some hostility there, but I'm
seeing it
>as more of a weariness now.
>
>I think now that I could have been more forthcoming about the reaction I
had to
>Julienne's scorn.  I did reply, but in a rather defensive way, defensive
of what
>I was doing, instead of addressing her real content, which was hostility.

>I don't like to engage Julienne's hostility, but I feel that's the only
handle
>she offers me.  And in this case I did not take her up on the offer.  I can't
>claim any highly evolved reasons for doing so.  I think I felt like I
might be a
>little in the clear here and then it turned out I wasn't.  I felt like
something
>better might be happening in Psyberia here for me and then it fell apart,
and I
>was afraid to go forward, afraid to go back.

JoAnne - what can I say? You don't like to engage my hostility? Go
back and reread the posts you wrote about me when I first came on
this list - and the ones you wrote about me on my own list - until
person after person on CHA*OS announced they were leaving the list
if I didn't unsubscribe you. We lost half the list at that time. Reread the
very cruel ones you wrote on this list when my father died. Perhaps it
might be an idea for you to own your hostility toward me instead of
projecting it onto me? Do you have the vaguest idea how devastating
your attacks on me have been in my life?

I am now in a state where I can deal with them - but in the midst
of the hell of the many deaths in my life - which *you* scorned, I
wasn't able to.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:08:59 -0400
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              was retained.
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: squish squash - pumpkin pie
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At 09:41 PM 9/16/98 -0400, Stephen wrote:
>>I think this is a mistake we all make - water is NOT female alone at all,
but
>>as been relegated to that position in contradistinction to "intellect".
> >
>In my framing there is water and there is intellect and the two only meet
>in head first dives; oh, and sometimes water is just water.

Not psychologically nor neuroscientifically. The two always
interact, and to block one is to deny and repress our deepest
natures.

>Julienne, you wrote,
>
>> What looks like a play, or a game, is really the emotional
>>life insisting on being heard through play-acting.

>Yes. It seems no value judgement is intended the way you cast this
>statement. (Interestingly to me, at least, this kind of play-acting is a
>very powerful mode of learning that may be focused on the creation of
>self-awareness.  It figures in all sorts of therapeutic methods, not the
>least of which is that of analytic psychology. As a method I recognize that
>it's even *time-honored*. Moreno too, yes? )

I agree with you - and have used such techniques frequently as
both a school counselor and in my own counseling practice.

>In fact, as a novice ant in this particular play act, one of my intentions
>was to collaborate on a project for which I felt self-awareness was one of
>the goals.

>But, then, this kind of play-acting irritates you off because JoAnne is a
>participant.

It would have made little difference if JoAnne hadn't been
there. Maybe 20% difference.

But I think calling things "Julienne and JoAnne" has become a list
excuse.

>>irritated that you, who are one of those most rejecting of real
>> emotion, were one of the chief participants in the pseudo-emotional
>>play. It seemed to me that you were okay with fakey emotional
>>children's games - but not with real adult emotions.

>It's also odd how we see each other so differently: JoAnne seems, to me, to
>honor adult emotions while discriminating their value logically...which is
>a very good thing, to me. She seems to be deeply committed to this
>balancing act. But what I do not for the life of me understand Julienne, is
>that your way of honoring the deep work we were doing was to be blind to it
>as such, and then to show your irritation...this seems to be very close to
>the accusation you are leveling on JoAnne, i.e. you seemed to reject the
>real emotion behind the play-act. Emotion I felt was extremely deep, adult,
>and real.

Sorry - I didn't feel that at all.  I felt it was very artificial and
superficial.

>You didn't sense that real emotion, but why  couldn't you leave our process
>alone and let us play? I don't get it.

Because I felt a need to say what I said. I am not a lemming - and
nor would I follow Hitler. Maybe what I said needed to be said.
Certyainly it needed to be said by me.

Over the months previous to that event, there had been a certain
amount of that type of thing, and I felt that real life was being
ignored in favour of escapist games and pseudoemotions.

I am delighted, however, to see you usung your real name and
being confrontational - even though it's me you're practising on. :)


>And where is the constructive criticism that would have us move on the
>promised path from your brutal evaluation to some process, under your
>leadership, more promising for us, or at least a process less irritating to
>you. (Him?)
Why would I assume you would accept my leadership, as you put it,
in anything? I would rather think that whatever I said would have elicited
about as much positive response as in the past. Why would you expect
me to be patient and instructive with you when I have received little of that
on here? That's not a condemnation of all - I certainly exclude Susan and
Charles and a few others. But most of you, I also exclude you, until this
point, have been more than brutal to me. My patient days were met with
great negativity.

Who's "Him"?

>>I was also rather disgusted with Hoon's dismissing of it all as an
expression
>>of the Anima - as if only the women had created this event.

>Hello? Julienne? Anima? "Anima" last used in a post of mine on  Mon, 1 Jun
>1998 and having nothing to do with this event. But, be that as it may, I'm
>already aware that your animus doesn't have the most exacting recall.  :-)

Mistake - I meant "Animus".  I don't have an animus. I don't think any more
of the concept in Jung's hands than in Plato's. But you flayed the list with
your accusation of the women with your comment on the Animus. Why
didn't you speak more gently?

>(btw, I don't confuse what the anima creates and what women create,
>although I am sympathetic with the revision of Jung that posits an anima
>aspect in female psychology. However, never have I made the statement you
>have attributed to me, 'dismissing of it all as an expression' of any *one*
>cause, let alone the anima, or only women. )

I think if you go back and check you'll find the post to which I refer.

>>"irritated that you, who are one of those most rejecting of real emotion,
>>were one of the chief participants in the pseudo-emotional play."

>Julienne, this you express as the reasoning behind your irritation.
>Still, why not let JoAnne and the rest of us play? What productive
> purpose could your expression possibly have served at the time?

Because I was weirded out by the way you were "playing". But
why give me so much power? How could one small remark from me spoil
your game if you were really committed to it? Methinks thou dost protest
too much. Why not just laugh me off or ignore me? Clearly there was
something else going on.

>I'm hoping this doesn't turn out to be too provocative a post, Julienne.
>I'd really like to understand why your irritation in this case was intended
>in a didactic manner to usurp where JoAnne was bravely, honestly at, even
>if it irritated to you, even if you're sure she isn't at your level of
>insight, or have your magnanimous disposition toward "real emotion".
>
>I don't get it. Help me understand.

I have already explained what I felt and why - and if you choose to ignore
it and search for other information, so be it.

One last try: When we do not respect feeling, or when we reject or
dismiss it, then our expression of feeling, and our experience of it,
is going to be artificial and hysterical. That is why I was so easily

able to stop the game - on some level you knew you weren't playing
for real. And you're angry at me for calling you on it. If I had been wrong
you could have continued on in your deep feelings.
I basically think JoAnne is as brave and honest as Al Capone at Miss
Marple's tea party.

Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:48:36 -0400
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Subject:      Re: squish squash - pumpkin pie
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>Not psychologically nor neuroscientifically. The two always
>interact, and to block one is to deny and repress our deepest
>natures.

Julienne,

eh? So: to block water is to deny our deepest nature, and, to block
intellect is to deny our deepest nature?

And the neuroscientific connection between intellect and water? Let me see,
does that have something to do with being mostly made up of water, or water
on the brain?

***

Stephen

(ps - could have sworn we were dealing with water as a symbol and intellect
as an aspect of psyche...and trying to get at the cheapness of equating
either absolutely.)

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Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:02:29 -0400
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Subject:      animussed up
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>Mistake - I meant "Animus".  I don't have an animus. I don't think any more
>of the concept in Jung's hands than in Plato's. But you flayed the list with
>your accusation of the women with your comment on the Animus. Why
>didn't you speak more gently?

Julienne,

Sometimes I'm not gentle, I don't know why I'm not always gentle...heck,
for that matter, I don't know why you're not always gentle. Actually, I
think I'm not always gentle because its not a goal I'm currently trying to
pursue. Heh, duh, right?

***

You are, to date, the only woman who has reported that she felt accused by
my comment. Which is made even more interesting by your assertion that you
don't have an animus.

***

Stephen

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Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:11:34 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      love lost by the sea
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Julienne, you write,

>Because I felt a need to say what I said. I am not a lemming - and
>nor would I follow Hitler. Maybe what I said needed to be said.
>Certyainly it needed to be said by me.

Certainly. But, still, if you had not said what you said, why would that
have made you into a lemming?

Anyway, when you need to say something, you say it.

***

But, we weren't burning jews, we were lovingly building an active
imagination. You didn't see that. No matter, it wasn't for everybody. But,
I for one, would have enjoyed your loving participation.

***

Stephen

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Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:42:40 -0400
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Julienne explains,

>One last try: When we do not respect feeling, or when we reject or
>dismiss it, then our expression of feeling, and our experience of it,
>is going to be artificial and hysterical.

That is as good an explanation for what you did, as we're likely to learn
about. You didn't respect the feeling of the play; you went on to reject
and dismiss it; and, at least to me, (and despite your elaborate rationale
offered in this post I respond to,) this rang as a hysteric outburst of
your animus.

***

I stated how I felt: heartbroke, crestfallen. My deep feeling of sadness in
response to the cruelty you expressed toward a real process, my process,
me, my depth, my deep feeling, toward my collaborators, my friends; and
also our loving, adult game, but above all to this idea we imaginal players
cherished in our depthful, sincere play; this idea of DOS.

***

>able to stop the game - on some level you knew you weren't playing
>for real. And you're angry at me for calling you on it.

In your world, but not in mine, this is true: "If I had been wrong you
could have continued on in your deep feelings." As Judith pointed out, the
feelings have continued and will continue to continue. Nancy has been
exploring with DOS. We begin again.

The tide recedes...a foundation rises again from the still saturated

smooth yet rippled

sand.

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:36:03 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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I have only one question...why do you stay, Julienne?
Judith

>At 11:11 PM 9/16/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:35:07 -0400, you, Julienne
><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>,
>>wrote:
>>
>>>At 03:57 PM 9/16/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>>
>>>>Water tends to be female, emotional -- are we drowning in emotion as we
>>>try to
>>>>be dry and logical?  Is the inspiration of the flame going out when
>>>swamped by
>>>>conflicting emotions?
>>>
>>>I think this is a mistake we all make - water is NOT female alone at all,
>but
>>>as been relegated to that position in contradistinction to "intellect".
>>
>>Tends to be, is what I wrote.  And I didn't say we should be only dry and
>>logical, though it looks like when we do there's always someone out
>>there with a bucket.
>
>Balance...:)
>
>>>Several have commented on the heavy intellectualizing of feelings on this
>>>list -
>>>and the undervaluing of feelings unless expressed through poetry - which,
>>>after all, can also be a way to distance oneself from personal involvement
>>>with emotion.
>>
>>>The reason I objected to the baby-talk story between you and Nancy, JoAnne,
>>>was because genuine emotions and very deep feelings had been rejected
>>>and ridiculed on this list. When that happens, pseudo and primitive
>emotions,.
>>>such as the baby-talk, tend to emerge. What looks like a play, or a game,
>>>is really the emotional life insisting on being heard through play-acting.
>
>>Hmm... so my emotions were insisting on being heard?  And you wanted
>>to stop that?
>
>Were they your emotions? If they were, you were hiding behind a
>character rather thjan owning them.
>
>>>I was irritated that you, who are one of those most rejecting of real
>>> emotion, were one of the chief participants in the pseudo-emotional
>>>play. It seemed to me that you were okay with fakey emotional
>>>children's games - but not with real adult emotions.
>
>>So you were sure these were fakey emotional children's games?
>>I wonder how you would know that, that these emotions had no
>>real meaning.
>
>They may have had some meaning, JoAnne - but why you would
>be accepting of acting out emotions, and not of real emotions in
>someone else, is perhaps a question to be asked.
>
>
>>>I was also rather disgusted with Hoon's dismissing of it all as an
>expression
>>>of the Anima - as if only the women had created this event.
>>>
>>>Julienne
>>>
>>>PS - Hoon, have you seen that there is a movie coming out - ANTZ? :)
>>
>>There's a movie already out with ants in it called Pi.  Web site at
>>http://www.pithemovie.com.  I liked it, suppose that may mean something
>>somewhere.
>
>Saw it last week - feel asleep in it. :)
>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Sep 1998 23:39:18 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: squish squash - pumpkin pie
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So we return to the old game here Bait and Switch...zzzzzzzzz
Judith

>At 09:41 PM 9/16/98 -0400, Stephen wrote:
>>>I think this is a mistake we all make - water is NOT female alone at all,
>but
>>>as been relegated to that position in contradistinction to "intellect".
>> >
>>In my framing there is water and there is intellect and the two only meet
>>in head first dives; oh, and sometimes water is just water.
>
>Not psychologically nor neuroscientifically. The two always
>interact, and to block one is to deny and repress our deepest
>natures.
>
>>Julienne, you wrote,
>>
>>> What looks like a play, or a game, is really the emotional
>>>life insisting on being heard through play-acting.
>
>>Yes. It seems no value judgement is intended the way you cast this
>>statement. (Interestingly to me, at least, this kind of play-acting is a
>>very powerful mode of learning that may be focused on the creation of
>>self-awareness.  It figures in all sorts of therapeutic methods, not the
>>least of which is that of analytic psychology. As a method I recognize that
>>it's even *time-honored*. Moreno too, yes? )
>
>I agree with you - and have used such techniques frequently as
>both a school counselor and in my own counseling practice.
>
>>In fact, as a novice ant in this particular play act, one of my intentions
>>was to collaborate on a project for which I felt self-awareness was one of
>>the goals.
>
>>But, then, this kind of play-acting irritates you off because JoAnne is a
>>participant.
>
>It would have made little difference if JoAnne hadn't been
>there. Maybe 20% difference.
>
>But I think calling things "Julienne and JoAnne" has become a list
>excuse.
>
>>>irritated that you, who are one of those most rejecting of real
>>> emotion, were one of the chief participants in the pseudo-emotional
>>>play. It seemed to me that you were okay with fakey emotional
>>>children's games - but not with real adult emotions.
>
>>It's also odd how we see each other so differently: JoAnne seems, to me, to
>>honor adult emotions while discriminating their value logically...which is
>>a very good thing, to me. She seems to be deeply committed to this
>>balancing act. But what I do not for the life of me understand Julienne, is
>>that your way of honoring the deep work we were doing was to be blind to it
>>as such, and then to show your irritation...this seems to be very close to
>>the accusation you are leveling on JoAnne, i.e. you seemed to reject the
>>real emotion behind the play-act. Emotion I felt was extremely deep, adult,
>>and real.
>
>Sorry - I didn't feel that at all.  I felt it was very artificial and
>superficial.
>
>>You didn't sense that real emotion, but why  couldn't you leave our process
>>alone and let us play? I don't get it.
>
>Because I felt a need to say what I said. I am not a lemming - and
>nor would I follow Hitler. Maybe what I said needed to be said.
>Certyainly it needed to be said by me.
>
>Over the months previous to that event, there had been a certain
>amount of that type of thing, and I felt that real life was being
>ignored in favour of escapist games and pseudoemotions.
>
>I am delighted, however, to see you usung your real name and
>being confrontational - even though it's me you're practising on. :)
>
>
>>And where is the constructive criticism that would have us move on the
>>promised path from your brutal evaluation to some process, under your
>>leadership, more promising for us, or at least a process less irritating to
>>you. (Him?)
>Why would I assume you would accept my leadership, as you put it,
>in anything? I would rather think that whatever I said would have elicited
>about as much positive response as in the past. Why would you expect
>me to be patient and instructive with you when I have received little of that
>on here? That's not a condemnation of all - I certainly exclude Susan and
>Charles and a few others. But most of you, I also exclude you, until this
>point, have been more than brutal to me. My patient days were met with
>great negativity.
>
>Who's "Him"?
>
>>>I was also rather disgusted with Hoon's dismissing of it all as an
>expression
>>>of the Anima - as if only the women had created this event.
>
>>Hello? Julienne? Anima? "Anima" last used in a post of mine on  Mon, 1 Jun
>>1998 and having nothing to do with this event. But, be that as it may, I'm
>>already aware that your animus doesn't have the most exacting recall.  :-)
>
>Mistake - I meant "Animus".  I don't have an animus. I don't think any more
>of the concept in Jung's hands than in Plato's. But you flayed the list with
>your accusation of the women with your comment on the Animus. Why
>didn't you speak more gently?
>
>>(btw, I don't confuse what the anima creates and what women create,
>>although I am sympathetic with the revision of Jung that posits an anima
>>aspect in female psychology. However, never have I made the statement you
>>have attributed to me, 'dismissing of it all as an expression' of any *one*
>>cause, let alone the anima, or only women. )
>
>I think if you go back and check you'll find the post to which I refer.
>
>>>"irritated that you, who are one of those most rejecting of real emotion,
>>>were one of the chief participants in the pseudo-emotional play."
>
>>Julienne, this you express as the reasoning behind your irritation.
>>Still, why not let JoAnne and the rest of us play? What productive
>> purpose could your expression possibly have served at the time?
>
>Because I was weirded out by the way you were "playing". But
>why give me so much power? How could one small remark from me spoil
>your game if you were really committed to it? Methinks thou dost protest
>too much. Why not just laugh me off or ignore me? Clearly there was
>something else going on.
>
>>I'm hoping this doesn't turn out to be too provocative a post, Julienne.
>>I'd really like to understand why your irritation in this case was intended
>>in a didactic manner to usurp where JoAnne was bravely, honestly at, even
>>if it irritated to you, even if you're sure she isn't at your level of
>>insight, or have your magnanimous disposition toward "real emotion".
>>
>>I don't get it. Help me understand.
>
>I have already explained what I felt and why - and if you choose to ignore
>it and search for other information, so be it.
>
>One last try: When we do not respect feeling, or when we reject or
>dismiss it, then our expression of feeling, and our experience of it,
>is going to be artificial and hysterical. That is why I was so easily
>
>able to stop the game - on some level you knew you weren't playing
>for real. And you're angry at me for calling you on it. If I had been wrong
>you could have continued on in your deep feelings.
>I basically think JoAnne is as brave and honest as Al Capone at Miss
>Marple's tea party.
>
>Julienne
>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 02:52:48 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: squish squash - pumpkin pie
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At 10:48 PM 9/18/98 -0400, Stephen wrote:
>>Not psychologically nor neuroscientifically. The two always
>>interact, and to block one is to deny and repress our deepest
>>natures.
>
>Julienne,
>
>eh? So: to block water is to deny our deepest nature, and, to block
>intellect is to deny our deepest nature?

Yes...except that emotion/water is primary.

>And the neuroscientific connection between intellect and water? Let me see,
>does that have something to do with being mostly made up of water, or water
>on the brain?

Feeling a little deluged? It has to do with the primacy of emotion in the
human being. Interesting, of course, that we are made up primarily of water...

>(ps - could have sworn we were dealing with water as a symbol and intellect
>as an aspect of psyche...and trying to get at the cheapness of equating
>either absolutely.)

That's not how I see water or psyche. I must have missed something from
an earlier post... I don't remember seeing anything before about cheapness
of equating these...

Julienne...dripping on the carpet...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:07:17 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: animussed up
In-Reply-To:  <v04011701b228cc1b667f@[207.54.160.66]>
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At 11:02 PM 9/18/98 -0400, Stephen wrote:
>>Mistake - I meant "Animus".  I don't have an animus. I don't think any more
>>of the concept in Jung's hands than in Plato's. But you flayed the list with
>>your accusation of the women with your comment on the Animus. Why
>>didn't you speak more gently?
>
>Julienne,
>
>Sometimes I'm not gentle, I don't know why I'm not always gentle...heck,
>for that matter, I don't know why you're not always gentle. Actually, I
>think I'm not always gentle because its not a goal I'm currently trying to
>pursue. Heh, duh, right?
>
Whatever. I'm a whole lot more gentle than you think, btw.
>
>You are, to date, the only woman who has reported that she felt accused by
>my comment. Which is made even more interesting by your assertion that you
>don't have an animus.

Meaning?

Maybe the others were asleep or deleted your comment
or didn't understand it, or a thousand other reasons. If you
didn't mean your comment accusatorily, how did you mean it?
Sheer objective observation, right?

When I was 15, and a senior at finishing school in Switzerland, I was
one of only two girls who had to study for the college boards. The other
girl and I were studying on my bed one night, a very cold night, and I was
under the covers, and she was at the other end of the bed under a comforter.
An old maid teacher reported me to the school, and the next day I was told
I was I was to be moved to another house to live. One of the ski profs
went to bat for me, and came out laughing because this teacher had
accused me of being a lesbian. He was laughing because he knew
I wasn't. 30 of the girls from the school and I went together to talk
with this teacher, and I asked her why she thought I was a lesbian.
Said she "Aha! You know the word! That proves you are one!" Well...
I was allowed to stay where I was, and was not moved. Actually, the
teacher left.

But the point of my story is, am I a lesbian because I know the word?
Do I have an animus because I am disgusted with you for accusing
the women of the list  of crashing the list with their display of animus -
or whatever you said? Nah - I don't *think* so. I also would notice, and
object, if you called me, or others, a variety of other names - and that
would not necessarily mean a damn.

Amen.

You're an antsy hippotamus and have green teeth and you're
really weird.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:11:40 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: love lost by the sea
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At 11:11 PM 9/18/98 -0400, Stephen wrote:
>Julienne, you write,
>
>>Because I felt a need to say what I said. I am not a lemming - and
>>nor would I follow Hitler. Maybe what I said needed to be said.
>>Certyainly it needed to be said by me.
>
>Certainly. But, still, if you had not said what you said, why would that
>have made you into a lemming?

Because i would have been following along with the crowd,
like a lemming. Either that or because I have brown fur.

>Anyway, when you need to say something, you say it.
>
Not always, by any means.
>
>But, we weren't burning jews, we were lovingly building an active
>imagination. You didn't see that. No matter, it wasn't for everybody. But,
>I for one, would have enjoyed your loving participation.

That would have been a first.

I find this list talks a lot about lovingness, but isn't very quick
to be loving. I needed a lot of love last year and was bloody
brutalized and intellectualized to pulpy death.

Never mind - I survived. But I nearly didn't.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:18:44 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: on and on
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At 11:42 PM 9/18/98 -0400, Stephen wrote:
>Julienne explains,
>
>>One last try: When we do not respect feeling, or when we reject or
>>dismiss it, then our expression of feeling, and our experience of it,
>>is going to be artificial and hysterical.
>
>That is as good an explanation for what you did, as we're likely to learn
>about. You didn't respect the feeling of the play; you went on to reject
>and dismiss it; and, at least to me, (and despite your elaborate rationale
>offered in this post I respond to,) this rang as a hysteric outburst of
>your animus.
>
>***
>
>I stated how I felt: heartbroke, crestfallen. My deep feeling of sadness in
>response to the cruelty you expressed toward a real process, my process,
>me, my depth, my deep feeling, toward my collaborators, my friends; and
>also our loving, adult game, but above all to this idea we imaginal players
>cherished in our depthful, sincere play; this idea of DOS.

Amazing. You felt heartbroken about a play - but not by the real-life
heartbreak around you last year.

>>able to stop the game - on some level you knew you weren't playing
>>for real. And you're angry at me for calling you on it.
>
>In your world, but not in mine, this is true: "If I had been wrong you
>could have continued on in your deep feelings." As Judith pointed out, the
>feelings have continued and will continue to continue. Nancy has been
>exploring with DOS. We begin again.

Jeesus...gawd.

>The tide recedes...a foundation rises again from the still saturated
>
>smooth yet rippled
>
>sand.

I may throw up.

Long live DOS!  And fuck real people!!!

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 03:24:40 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <v01550127b2289e040a9f@[207.54.181.124]>
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At 11:36 PM 9/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I have only one question...why do you stay, Julienne?
>Judith

Who knows? Why do you?

Maybe it's a good idea to be where one is not understood
sometimes - makes one grow.

It's like a dysfunctional family supremo...

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 07:51:29 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: squish squash - pumpkin pie
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Julienne,

You say:

> But most of you, [ ... ] until this
> point, have been more than brutal to me.

I do not dispute your feelings Julienne ... and i think there have been negative
responses to you but this response is not an owning of your feelings, rather it
is a generalisation, an accusation and a blaming that includes me, and many
others in a willy nilly way in your attack, and i don't like it!  I have
discussed some matters with you before where you have felt hurt and I have
acknowledged and apologised for some things ... and i am not willing to open
them up again.

> I basically think JoAnne is as brave and honest as Al Capone at Miss
> Marple's tea party.

As the list owner and host, i think your comments go beyond the level of respect
that I want for this forum.  I see it as my job to ensure that the sort of flame
wars we have had in the past do not recur, so i hope you can back off from these
sorts of attacks.


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 04:07:08 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: squish squash - pumpkin pie
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 07:51 AM 9/19/98 +0000, Walter wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>You say:
>
>> But most of you, [ ... ] until this
>> point, have been more than brutal to me.
>
>I do not dispute your feelings Julienne ... and i think there have been
negative
>responses to you but this response is not an owning of your feelings,
rather it
>is a generalisation, an accusation and a blaming that includes me, and many
>others in a willy nilly way in your attack, and i don't like it!  I have
>discussed some matters with you before where you have felt hurt and I have
>acknowledged and apologised for some things ... and i am not willing to open
>them up again.
>
>> I basically think JoAnne is as brave and honest as Al Capone at Miss
>> Marple's tea party.
>
>As the list owner and host, i think your comments go beyond the level of
respect
>that I want for this forum.  I see it as my job to ensure that the sort of
flame
>wars we have had in the past do not recur, so i hope you can back off from
these
>sorts of attacks.

Shame on you, Walter.

When you had to check on whether I or JoAnne had been honest, you found I had.
No reprimand was given to JoAnne for her dishonesty. Perhaps it is the
guilt you feel
fro the way I was treated which makes you continue to single me out - somehow
proving I deserved it.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 05:00:49 -0400
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Julienne writes,

>Amazing. You felt heartbroken about a play - but not by the real-life
>heartbreak around you last year.

Exactly. When I read of all the terrible events which came crashing down on
you, I felt how horrible it must be for you.  Distinctly I recall reading
one of your reports about your desperate fight with your brothers on behalf
of your father, and my heart trembled.

Yet, no heartbreak on my part, on your behalf. I have no thoroughgoing way
of empathizing. What you experienced is far beyond even the most awful
events of my own life. Although my twin brother suicided at 38, both my
parents are alive, and I'm close to both. My surviving brother is a classy,
creative, compassionate guy. The worst incident of losing an animal with
which I was personally attached, was a dog who died of cancer after 13
years. I feel fortunate: puer that I am, three times I've come within a
moment of suddenly being killed, and stared down death itself. I'm coming
into my prime and my trail of tears is not underfoot anymore.

I understand I have not at all come through for you, here. I have, at
times, tried to relate to you.

That said, I have no problem not being configured as you wish me to be
configured. You seem to want it both ways: that this Psyber-L group attend
to you according to your highminded priciples, but that when it attends to
itself according to the same or similar principles that be viewed as some
dereliction of its duties toward you. Many of your posts are littered with
the etched-in-stone resentments of what you feel is the way people should
have been, how they should have treated you, and, above all, what are the
varieties of griefs caused you, by us.

You lecture the entire list in an effort to reconfigure us. You've gotten
no satisfaction on this point. So, Judith's question comes up: "Why do you
stay?"

***

>Long live DOS!  And fuck real people!!!

*Let DOS live and the real person won't get fucked over* is the way I see
it. But, then, we don't agree on this point, do we? But there you have it:
the central formula and you wish for it to go away...yet in utmost sympathy
for you, and for your sake, I hope it does not.

Let the young man live.

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:34:44 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Removal from list
Comments: To: Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
In-Reply-To:  <19980919080755.KOWD3286@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julienne

I have removed you from the Psyber-L mailing list.  I have asked that you back
away from attack and disrespect and it is evident that you do wish to do that.

Walter


CC to Psyber-L



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:48:51 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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amazing, you finally did it



:-)



not such a big deal after
all , for Julienne ?

and it might just
maybe make this place
nicer and more communicative








big ole place this internet...



see ya

>>Julienne
>>
>>I have removed you from the Psyber-L mailing list.  I have asked that you
>back
>>away from attack and disrespect and it is evident that you do wish to do
>that.
>>
>>Walter
>>
>>
>>CC to Psyber-L
>>
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>>
---------------_---------
           o  | |
    _  _      | |  _   ,
 /|/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
-------------------------
 miles@mail.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 00:00:50 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

apologies to all that the following
was not a well thought
through message...


you know that thing where you get an
email whilst you are actually on-line so
you tend to read it ?

well it was like that just now with the squish squish
pumpkin thing...


but now, I have had the time for
some more browsing back through recent
posts, and I now feel all
sad and like its a terrible shame
given all that Julienne has put into
this with all her posts and happy
thoughts  (as well as her flame/ flamebaiting ness )

its kinda like a person has died and with grief
i should not congratulate the person that
killed her... only not so much like that either ;-)


anyways apologies ,
I'll show more respect next time
to process , and grief and whatever


-----Original Message-----
From: Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Date: Saturday, 19 September 1998 23:51
Subject: Re: [P] Removal from list


>amazing, you finally did it
>
>
>
>:-)
>
>
>
>not such a big deal after
>all , for Julienne ?
>
>and it might just
>maybe make this place
>nicer and more communicative
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>big ole place this internet...
>
>
>
>see ya
>
>>>Julienne
>>>
>>>I have removed you from the Psyber-L mailing list.  I have asked that you
>>back
>>>away from attack and disrespect and it is evident that you do wish to do
>>that.
>>>
>>>Walter
>>>
>>>
>>>CC to Psyber-L
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________________________
>>>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>>>
>---------------_---------
>           o  | |
>    _  _      | |  _   ,
> /|/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
>  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
>-------------------------
> miles@mail.com
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 07:53:05 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, I empathize with the action you have taken here...I for one have
grown weary of the Bait and Switch...and my empathy for Julienne had long
ago receeded...for awhile I felt that I was remiss until I figured out that
was her intention...

I don't mean to continue hashing yet I didn't want to be silent at this moment
Judith in support


>Julienne
>
>I have removed you from the Psyber-L mailing list.  I have asked that you back
>away from attack and disrespect and it is evident that you do wish to do that.
>
>Walter
>
>
>CC to Psyber-L
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:40:10 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list

My ex-husband was diagnosed with a Character Disorder.  For years I hoped
and worked for change, 'dragged' him into couples therapy, tried to
involve him with the kids.  I seem to be constitutionally unable to under-
stand or accept that a person wouldn't want, with all their intensity,
to grow.
  Unfortunately, people like that seems to hate the growth process in others
and seek to destroy it.  I guess it calls their own path too painfully
into question.
  Now all these years later he is still, after 3 more marriages, he is
still just exactly the same (as far as I can tell)  This year I had to
really press our two sons to get in touch with him after he had a stroke.
Apparently, from their reports, he was ...  gratified by their well desired
concern.
  Well, that about says it, I guess.

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 08:08:23 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      R.I.P.  Julienne
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There's been murder here

abort an unwanted child
terminate one considered
a cancer
a threat to the status quo
threatening concept of
self
a collective self

euthenasia for the good of
the one murdered?
those who murder?
temenos?

in mourning
angry
sad
and confusingly
relieved that
conflict
has been
resolved
and that it may
once again
be time for
poetry

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 07:32:34 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
In-Reply-To:  <360993eb.39294631@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Friends:

If you want a "real life" term to fit what just happened here in this part
of cyberspace (domain, should be) which we call Psyber-L, it isn't murder,
it's banishment.  I think we owe it both to Walter and to the language to
keep that straight...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:24:06 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
In-Reply-To:  <360993eb.39294631@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, all,

Agreed with banishment. I was a little surprised. I'm sad for Julienne.
But, the timing, Walter, is sound;  imo we we're headed for a storm. It
would likely have not been productive, let alone enriched us.

My hope for Julienne is my hope for my self, blessings and wellness...

Stephen

==================

                >-]-]-{


                                                        - - - >-]-]-{


                                                >-]-]-{
                                                 herbie, you big faker!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:38:00 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: squish squash - pumpkin pie
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Oh, pumpkins!  How could I not make just one response under this subject line?
:)

There are so many uses for pumpkins... pie, jack o'lanterns, toasted pumpkin
seeds, carriages for Cinderella (but only before midnight).

My favorite pumpkin story:

"Once upon a time there was an absentminded man who had no equal in forgetting
things, even his own identity.  He had an intelligent and trusted friend who
wanted to help him to remember himself.  This friend attached a pumpkin to his
neck and said, 'Now listen, old man, one day you might completely lose
yourself and not know who you are.  Therefore, as a sign, I tie this pumpkin
around your neck so that every morning when you wake up you will see the
pumpkin and know it is you who are there.

Every day the absentminded man saw the pumpkin upon waking in the morning and
said to himself, 'I am not lost!'  After some time when he had become used to
self-identification through the pumpkin, the friend asked a stranger to remain
with the absentminded man, take the pumpkin from his neck during his sleep,
and tie it around his own neck.  The stranger did this; and when the
absentminded man woke up in the morning, he did not see the pumpkin around his
neck.  So he said to himself , 'I am lost!'  Then he saw the pumpkin on the
other man's neck and said to him, 'You are me!  But then who am I?' "

From Meher Baba, *Discourses*, p. 139-140

It amazes me when I realize the relevance of words from one situation applied
to another medium, as these words appear to do.  They were said by a man who
died before cyberspace became a reality, but they apply to on-line
relationships profoundly.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 11:38:03 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-09-19 07:30:56 EDT, you write:

> Julienne
>
>  I have removed you from the Psyber-L mailing list.  I have asked that you
> back
>  away from attack and disrespect and it is evident that you do wish to do
> that.
>
>  Walter

I have to say that in some ways, I am sorry about this.  There was something
about the dynamic that I saw (admittedly limited in terms of time and my
understanding of those involved).

The feminine pattern I saw re: empathy, difficult times, subjectivity, and oh
woe-is-me appalled and triggered me at times.  Because, I could see those
aspects of femininity in myself, and I despised them.  Paradoxically, the
aspects seemed animus-y.  Like, could exuding an epitomy of feminity be driven
by masculine energy?

It seemed to me to be similar to being around a woman who has taken a bath in
perfume.  Maybe a woman feels a need to do that to convince others that she
really is a woman.

Most of the time, though, I would think, I am a woman, and I could think of no
reason I would want to convince anyone else of that.

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:35:50 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: R.I.P.  Julienne
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>There's been murder here
>
>abort an unwanted child
>terminate one considered
>a cancer
>a threat to the status quo
>threatening concept of
>self
>a collective self
>
>euthenasia for the good of
>the one murdered?
>those who murder?
>temenos?
>
>in mourning
>angry
>sad
>and confusingly
>relieved that
>conflict
>has been
>resolved
>and that it may
>once again
>be time for
>poetry
>
>Robert

Robert, if I may, say yeah to poetry...I acknowledge your feelings here tho
I resonnate to Charles and banishment...your words brought me to a personal
reflection about the parallel with the residue from my tumor, mostly a very
depressed immune system, which on a physical level means I am at risk for
about any germ that exists, yet on a spiritual level it fills me with
vulnerability and asks me to be open...

and the more I live in the wonder of my health and how I am actually being
cared for and the mystery of how my body is functioning in health, the less
I concern myself with all the dire predictions...

the parallel then to my capacity of willingness to continue to open to
Julienne and what she brought to my life...I could have ignored the posts
but that violated my commitment to engagement...I felt the ability to be
open and vulnerable here knowing at any time I could get pounced on took an
inordinate amount of energy, energy which is much needed by my body...self
preservation as it were...it came down to not wanting the energy she
brought in me, like a germ my body had to contend with which had malovalent
intent...

and also it was a matter of self respect...I allow no one in my life who
does not hold my life as sacred as I hold theirs...it may be sad on one
level but I learned something about justice a few years back when I had a
totally unjust thing done to me and I sought to *understand*...what I
learned was by not confronting the injustice I was in fact contributing to
it by what I considered was an empathetic response...

In the end for me Julienne had no respect and this is a value I hold

Judith learning as usual

>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:01:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
In-Reply-To:  <360993eb.39294631@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter:

   A VERY difficult decision, which I don't envy you, but sometimes
difficult decisions need to be made, and I'm glad that you had the courage
to make it.

  Janell

P. S.  Unable to write more because my very pregnant daughter is about to
give birth to my second granddaughter very soon (maybe today).


At 11:34 AM 9/19/98 GMT, you wrote:
>Julienne
>
>I have removed you from the Psyber-L mailing list.  I have asked that you
back
>away from attack and disrespect and it is evident that you do wish to do
that.
>
>Walter
>
>
>CC to Psyber-L
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:41:41 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         anon <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      shrinks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi all,

for some time I've been reading, anly. =


Charles' post on *banishment* made me think of the Czars who did this =

routinely to their insubordinate subjects (Czar Walter ?). =

Napoleon was banned but returned, finally failed. =


Is this the kind of leadership in cyber-space which Psyber-L is to develo=
p ?

I noticed that psychologists (-therapists) are rather intolerant if they =
feel =

threatened by a person who exhibits a particular behavior. Similar to the=
 =

situation of religion where Muslims can talk to Christians much easier th=
an =

catholics to protestants. =


This list seems to lead to conformity. =

Voltaire said: I don't agree to what you said but I shall defend your rig=
ht to
express it.

There is the fiction of a psychological container (cauldron) but the soup=
 in =

it tastes flat. =


People who come into the dark and cold atmosphere of Cyber-space should p=
ut on
warm overcoats. If you grow up in Siberia, you like the climate.

Best regards,
FRITZ

(sometimes I wonder if I should change my name, in this Psyber-L group)
 =

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:04:50 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: shrinks
In-Reply-To:  <199809191741_MC2-5A07-4252@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 17:41:41 -0400, you, anon <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>,
wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>for some time I've been reading, anly.

Nice miplessing.

>Charles' post on *banishment* made me think of the Czars who did this
>routinely to their insubordinate subjects (Czar Walter ?).
>Napoleon was banned but returned, finally failed.
>
>Is this the kind of leadership in cyber-space which Psyber-L is to develop ?

If you wish to lead in another direction, please do.

>I noticed that psychologists (-therapists) are rather intolerant if they feel
>threatened by a person who exhibits a particular behavior. Similar to the
>situation of religion where Muslims can talk to Christians much easier than
>catholics to protestants.

You're suggesting the converse fallacy.  Presuming you are right, that doesn't
mean a person who is not tolerated by a particular therapist so affected is
perceived as a threat to the therapist (Walter) in question.  Such therapists
can be intolerant of other things, too.

>This list seems to lead to conformity.
>Voltaire said: I don't agree to what you said but I shall defend your right to
>express it.

Did he say he wanted to share a living room with the people he disagreed with?

>There is the fiction of a psychological container (cauldron) but the soup in
>it tastes flat.
>
>People who come into the dark and cold atmosphere of Cyber-space should put on
>warm overcoats. If you grow up in Siberia, you like the climate.

I got my online "wings" on Fidonet aka fightnet, one of the more contentious BBS
networks, and I spend a fair amount of time on Usenet's alt.folklore.urban,
considered one of the toughest audiences on the net.  So I am indeed accustomed
to the out-of-doors.  I don't spend all my time there.

Do you think there should be no rules here?  I don't have a problem with that
but Walter is the listowner and can decide how he wants the list to be run.

However, if there are rules, what would the point be in not enforcing them?

By the way, I had no hand in Walter's decision; it was a surprise to me.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:13:06 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      New Granddaughter
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Hello All:

   My new granddaughter, Cheyenne, entered this world at 9:30PM EST
September 19, 1998 weighing in at 8 Lbs. 9 Oz. and 20inches long.

  Both Mom and Granddaughter are doing fine!!!!!

   YEA!!!!!!!

   Janell

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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:43:47 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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Judith
  Re: crumbling
  Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:12:42 -0400
you wrote:


> Yes and in the confusion lies the source of the clarity...again if I may,
> it becomes a consciousness about how one chooses to hold it within any
> given point...to go deeper into the confusion leads to the way out in my
> view...I sense everyone here holding their reactionresponse to the act
> within a greater context as you pointed out from your "overwhelmed
> state"...therefore it is not the act in particular, but the act as a
> catalyst and in that framing it becomes less destructive and more
> constructive personally...an opportunity given...and in that case there are
> unintended consequences emerging from the act itself which ironically
> become a source of sustenance...something learned about self, an
> opportunity to take the *high road* as a friend likes to say...what I
> knewknow is that I cannot engage the source of the act...I have no impetus
> to engage the act and actor in that context based in what I've learned here
> in the past...

What i hear you saying is this:

In the face of hostility there is an opportunity to for our personal sustenance.
It is not found in the response reaction to the hostility, but how we hold it,
attune to it, immunise ourselves.  To use earlier metaphor we have used here:
It is not the irritant that makes the pearl.

I am not sure if i have summarised you accurately but i believe this to be true,
and I can see how it applies to having a cancer in a most profound way.  The
golden rule, as Stephen mentioned is a solid foundation to creating a holding
space, that might be just one way to seize that opportunity, persistent self
respect and assertion is another, and Zen silence another!

In tension with the above is that there is a point where one leaves the
marriage, dissolves the partnership, sells the shares, makes a break.

In my life I come to those points with reluctance and despair.  I think of the
moment when I left my marriage now 20 years ago!  It was simply that I could no
longer bear the pain ... a friend said "let the pain tell you what to do" and
that was just the trigger that made me Quit (Ah!) I have recently decided to
resigned from a psychotherapy collective after many years of struggle because
the values most hold, and particularly those in power in the group, clash with
mine, and I have no energy to continue to work at it.  I feel the grief!

I feel the grief here ...

What i am saying here applies to the struggles here in Psyber-L for me as a
participant ... the story, is more complex as we see this domain as an
environment for many people, and we think of the responsibility I / we have to
the communal, to the common.  I have a responsibility both as a participant and
especially as the owner / host.  Looking at the psyche in this medium I think
means we must look at the environment we are in, and the part leadership plays
in that.  More on this ... no doubt!


Walter






__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:44:38 GMT
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Janell!

> P. S.  Unable to write more because my very pregnant daughter is about to
> give birth to my second granddaughter very soon (maybe today).

All the best to you all, and *bright blessings* <g>


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:45:28 GMT
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On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:22:53 GMT, walterl1@ihug.co.nz (Walter Logeman) wrote:

Judith
  Re: R.I.P.  Julienne
  Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:35:50 -0400
you wrote:

[I have changed the title of the thread here.  Julienne is alive and anyone who
wishes can continue their relationship with her.]


> and also it was a matter of self respect...I allow no one in my life who
> does not hold my life as sacred as I hold theirs...it may be sad on one
> level but I learned something about justice a few years back when I had a
> totally unjust thing done to me and I sought to *understand*...what I
> learned was by not confronting the injustice I was in fact contributing to
> it by what I considered was an empathetic response...


"I allow no one in my life who does not hold my life as sacred as I hold
theirs."

You mean inwardly to your soul or being?  Outwardly, in so far as being here in
Psyber-L is concerned, and so far as this is life, which it feels like to me,
there is no certainty!  Just like in real life I guess ... nothing we can do
ensures that sort of safety.  Yet we can make places that foster relatively
safety.

I think banishment from the list is not the best or the main or even a big part
in creating that relative safety, temenos as we have been referring to it here.
I think it signals the need to find better ways ...


Walter



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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:46:11 GMT
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Nancy,

>   I haven't forgotten or abandoned our project.  And Little Lamp (who's been
> a little miffed with me over the Stock Market) says it's time I shared
> where I'm at with it and inquired where each of you are.

I have said quite a bit about that in other posts ... including my irritability
at getting lost & overwhelmed by the complexity of this story.  I also acutely
felt the need for more shape and structure ... so being cast here thus ...

>   The Tower: Walter

Must fit in some way!  A Tower is a container of sorts!  Certainly a structure.


Can you (To) tell me more of what is on your mind here?  How does the Tower fit
into the Psyche & Eros story.

I am a fragile tower ... not enough cement between the bricks ... not sure I
even want to be a tower.


Walter



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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:46:48 GMT
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Janell

>    My new granddaughter, Cheyenne, entered this world at 9:30PM EST
> September 19, 1998 weighing in at 8 Lbs. 9 Oz. and 20inches long.
>
>   Both Mom and Granddaughter are doing fine!!!!!
>
>    YEA!!!!!!!

Congratulations.  May you enjoy the grandmothership even more.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:25:48 +0300
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From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
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Hi Psyberbians,


All is happening so fast, that I can't follow. Just when I got  ready for
writing  and  asking Julienne, how it is possible  that she has no  Animus,
  Walter removes her  from the list.  Now,  it  will  remain  a mystery to
me,  how a woman can live without  Animus,  without  a sensible  inner
organizer. I shall not miss Julienne, although  her  persistent
stubbornness  was  sometimes  very amusing   - you know, I have a weird
sense of humour.  She seldom wrote true things, but  her last reply  to
Judith  rang  true to me.  She wrote: " Maybe it's a good idea to be where
one is not understood sometimes - makes one grow".   Maybe  Julienne
expected that  Psyber-list helps her to grow out   from her  Martyr
complex,  maybe she were  expecting too much of us,  and  was disappointed
about the list. I have never met a person of her kind in real life,  that's
why  I followed her postings  with  amusement and interest. But certainly
I 'm not sorry for her removal, and  I give  my support to  Walter.

Cheers
Anita

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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:13:14 -0400
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Fritz, all,

Would you like to have a dialogue about these ideas?

>I noticed that psychologists (-therapists) are rather intolerant if they feel
>threatened by a person who exhibits a particular behavior.

(Shall we propose a hierarchy of tolerance according to profession?
Interesting; generally, what is the most tolerant profession?)

I've noted persons of 'different stripes' generally have some sort of
limit, a tolerance if you will, past which particular behaviors to which a
person is subjected *inevitably* leads to intolerance. As our mandala
thought problem reveals, the idealized Buddhist monk might impassively
allow me to belly flop on the half-finished mandala, but the crowd...

***

Indulge me some simplistic wandering about these ideas. "Conformity" isn't,
obviously, a single aspect. Individuals choose, or choose not to,  to
adhere to norms, while there exists a powerful norming mechanism in almost
every group. In fact, the idealized group not insisting on this kind of
boundary making is not encountered; I know I *never* have.

Group dynamics is not exactly old hat. It oddly took some time before
psychological thinking about group or collective behavior made headway
against the conceits of sociological and political framings for group life.
Yet, it seems often the group is analyzed as if it had no psychological
aspects and thus a catagory error becomes evident: what a person may say
has not anything to do with behavior or intention. (I note this may have
roots in the old fashioned fiction of behavior, Fritz.)

What is tolerable, then, may be viewed in many ways, sociologically,
politically, psychologically, are but three ways, but each may take many
different snapshots, (according to the *film* used!) of this phenomena.
Fundamentally, the setting of boundaries or "who's in, who's out," is
central to group life, no matter what the framing which considers it, is.

***

>This list seems to lead to conformity.

So, Fritz, this comment is of great interest to me. I'd like you to expand
upon it.

Clearly the group does lead to conformity. Not only implicity, but
explicitly through both the structure of rules and the stated structure of
affinity with which it is presumed the group's constituents have some
sympathy with and interest in. Underneath the group, so-to-speak, their is
an ongoing interplay of unconscious interaction and 'material' which plays
an intense part in the group's state. (This is what we reflect upon and
view over on NETDYNAM.)

***

A chilly moment, the banishment of a constituent and I'd call it a victory
for conformity...but I just wouldn't stop there!

Yet, Psyber-L is a heated, moist place, which more than many other possible
virtual locales, allows for a great many fictions like "Temenos" and it is
that very tolerance for psyche which is one of the essential defining
commitments of the group.

imo

***

Stephen

ps-

"In the groups in which I am a psychiatrist I am the most obvious person,
by virtue of my position, in whom to vest a right to establish rules of
procedure. I take advantage of this position to establish no rules of
procedure and to put forward no agenda. From the moment when it becomes
clear that I am doing this the group sets out to make good my omissions,
and the intensity with which it does so shows that more is at stake than a
passion for efficiency."

(p77; W.R.Bion, _Experiences In Groups_)

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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:12:56 -0400
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Janell,
How exciting...and the power of mystery of life expressed in joyful renewal
Congratuations!
Judith

>Janell
>
>>    My new granddaughter, Cheyenne, entered this world at 9:30PM EST
>> September 19, 1998 weighing in at 8 Lbs. 9 Oz. and 20inches long.
>>
>>   Both Mom and Granddaughter are doing fine!!!!!
>>
>>    YEA!!!!!!!
>
>Congratulations.  May you enjoy the grandmothership even more.
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 09:43:17 -0400
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Walter,

>On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:22:53 GMT, walterl1@ihug.co.nz (Walter Logeman) wrote:
>
>Judith
>  Re: R.I.P.  Julienne
>  Sat, 19 Sep 1998 12:35:50 -0400
>you wrote:
>
>[I have changed the title of the thread here.  Julienne is alive and anyone who
>wishes can continue their relationship with her.]
>
>
>> and also it was a matter of self respect...I allow no one in my life who
>> does not hold my life as sacred as I hold theirs...it may be sad on one
>> level but I learned something about justice a few years back when I had a
>> totally unjust thing done to me and I sought to *understand*...what I
>> learned was by not confronting the injustice I was in fact contributing to
>> it by what I considered was an empathetic response...
>
>
>"I allow no one in my life who does not hold my life as sacred as I hold
>theirs."
>
>You mean inwardly to your soul or being?  Outwardly, in so far as being here in
>Psyber-L is concerned, and so far as this is life, which it feels like to me,
>there is no certainty!  Just like in real life I guess ... nothing we can do
>ensures that sort of safety.  Yet we can make places that foster relatively
>safety.
I mean from the inward focus I hold that all souls are sacred...however, I
specifically meant outwardly...I don't seek certainty in life btw...to me
that's when the *line* goes flat...and it isn't about all light and
love...what it is about is that I hold myself accountable to honor my space
and life and those who choose to enter in accountable...my world view about
how the universe works has to do with resonnance...as when two people come
together there is an energy exchange put into motion...what is evoked
through this exchange has to do with many facets of the individuals and
then the dynamic set up through the alignment or unalighment...these can
set off triggers which I think those of you hereframe this as shadow if I
understand what you all speak about...anyway I can choose to respond or not
and one of my criteria of engagement is how the other person respects my
space...and I believe how the other person responds has to do with how *I*
respect my space...

Interesting during the early on Wilbur stuff about rage, I backchanneled
him and his engagement with me was open and non confrontive and
receptive...

Anyway what I have experienced is that the more awake one becomes the less
slack the universe cuts for inauthentic acts...one has to keep it cleaner
and cleaner and as one engages in keeping it cleaner the resonnance set up
through engagement evokes *cleaner*...so my first responsibility is to keep
my act clean and when it isn't to get out the dust broom or the shovel
depending on the extent of the muck...

>
>I think banishment from the list is not the best or the main or even a big part
>in creating that relative safety, temenos as we have been referring to it here.
>I think it signals the need to find better ways ...

My son has modeled something for me since he was very little...he goes
through open doors and if there are none in the moment he sits down and
actively waits until an opening occurs...I on the other hand at that time
spent an inordinate amoutn of time banging on the closed doors or even more
pathetic crying poor me...the door still remained closed and I was worn
out...so my task was to figure out how to find the open doors...I don't
know what *better ways* means, Walter...isn't safety created within
self...I need more to go on to get it

There's that word again *temenos* and I had packed about the dictionary:-)
Judith
________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:25:05 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: breathe Eros and Psyche

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 02:46:11 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>>   I haven't forgotten or abandoned our project.  And Little Lamp (who's been
>> a little miffed with me over the Stock Market) says it's time I shared
>> where I'm at with it and inquired where each of you are.
>
>I have said quite a bit about that in other posts ... including my irritability
>at getting lost & overwhelmed by the complexity of this story.  I also acutely
>felt the need for more shape and structure ... so being cast here thus ...
>
>>   The Tower: Walter
>
>Must fit in some way!  A Tower is a container of sorts!  Certainly a structure.
>
N: Yes. Your expressed need did give me the termerity to pass along
To's nominations.  I'd been reflecting on doing so for a month or so.
And still felt some reluctance (as I prefer not to be the one 'pushed
against'!)  Of course there is always the possibility I've misunderstood
To.  She DOES flit about so.  Also she is big enough to cover two lies
on my monitor and three on my member's list.  So I could have thought
she was pointing to one name when in fact it was another.  In any case..
upward and onward to the Tower.

>Can you (To) tell me more of what is on your mind here?  How does the Tower fit
>into the Psyche & Eros story.

N:The role of the Tower is outlined on pages 60-61 of She.  It is covered
in more detail in Amor and Psyche (Neumann).
  I've been puzzled as to where and whose Tower.  As far as I can make
out it is a tower in Aphrodite's house.  And none of us mortals would
dispute that the Goddess of physical love has her strengths.  Also for
the sake of our story, who would know Aphrodites tricks better?  Though
I did rather fancy it being a tower in the house Eros built Psyche.
Well, it could be the tower in his mother's house where he had his
childhood room or post often played.
  Where there is confusion, as the SF folk might say, we can do anything
we dang please!
  Now, as to your query, Walter,'but, hey, why me' (if I may be permitted
to interpolate {if that's what I'm doing...})  May I be permitted
a small wry grin?  It seems to me that in the instance of Juliene's
expulsion from this garden, To's casting has been given weight.
  It had seemed to us that as list owner you are ideally suited for the
role.  Are you not our bastion?  (What exactly is a 'bastion'?)  Do
we not hurl ourselves against you 'stony' walls each time you make
or refer to a 'decision'?  Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't your about
to be step son about to enter adolescence?  Don't you need to practice?
  Still, if it isn't what you want...  We could do without the Tower,
as his council is pretty clearly recorded.  Still I had envisioned
all sort of flurries on further consultations back and forth every
time we got uncertain or discouraged along the way.  With our stalwart
eagle to tell you of our delimmas and bring us back your reflections..Oh
  Or if you'd like to be more 'present' perhaps there is a 'scrying'
stone among your many where the mortar is loose.  Judith could add it
to her mule pack, or Simon to his back pack as he he jounces over
the rocks on his two wheeler...  If it's really small, Little Lanp
could carry it in her pocket...  Oh, well...
  I find the Tower's directives very interesting.  It's advice is
designed to achieve the exact oposite results for the archetypal
feminine from those of the Wise Woman in the Third Son fairy tales.
In the latter it is feeling values which the archetypal masculine
is to learn.  Whereas with Psyche it is feminine generousity which
the feminine must learn to inhibit to attain a durable and lasting love.
  How slow many of us are to learn this.
  Well, gang, that should give you enough to shred for now.  I must
away back to my SF story about the deification of Our Lady Chelsea
and Lord Bud, after the blast which ends the Demon Bill and most
of the known world.
  Still before I go I must extort you to spend less time here in
Psyberspace and more in the Real World, as I do.

  Love, Nancy

PS Of course someone else could take to part of the Tower.  Charles?
Fritz?  Any volunteers?





>I am a fragile tower ... not enough cement between the bricks ... not sure I
>even want to be a tower.
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 10:32:18 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: New Granddaughter

How fortunate you are, twice blessed, and close enough to enjoy.

  Love, Nancy

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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:21:34 +0300
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From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: breath Eros and Psyche
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Hi Nancy,

You have distributed us roles:

>Aphrodite: Julienne (and Anita?)
>Psyche: Meeseo (tho we all feel she may have some trouble obeying the
>Tower's seeming heartless orders.)
>The Tower: Walter
>Eros: JoAnne (with an assist from Simon?)
>We already have our eagle, ants and mistress of the props.
>Oh, oh, yes, Dear. And Little Lamp.

I've forgotten who  is the Eagle. Is he  Charles who   aids Psyche in her
third labor, when Aphrodite  sends her to fill a crystal vessel with the
water of the spring that feeds  Styx and Cocytus, the streamsof the
underworld.
      But why  Walter is the Tower, to which Psyche went
in order to  throw herself headlong from it ? Perhaps therefore,
that the far-seeing  tower had  a  gift of prophecy?
   And what about Pan and the Reed? Who is Pan, who  says to Psyche:  "Eros
is the greatest of the gods... be feminine and   win  his love".  Maybe he
is Stephen.  But to my mind Stephen is Eros.
   And  the  Reed, who whispers to Psyche the wisdom of  growth:" wait, be
patient. Things change. Time brings  counsel". Maybe she is  Judith. There
is many  "persons" and roles in the story of  Eros and Psyche.
    I wonder why  you've  given  to me the role of Aphrodite.
Do I  look to you like  Terrible Mother?  Am I so jealous and
bloodthirsty, bitter old woman, who  cannot  stand the beauty
of the young Psyche?

Love
Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:39:21 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: breathe Eros and Psyche

No, Anita.  I am sure you are not the terrible mother who envies
Psyche.  But, you see, my Finnish mother-in-law was and she (with
 a great deal of help from an abusive husband/father) raised
an abusive son.  I thought perhaps you might enjoy a starring role?
No?  Aphrodite represents much that is positive.  I have gotten the
impression that you were not unacquainted with these good qualities.
I thought perhaps you might like to help me 'redeem' you country persons.
  Someone has written a whole book about Aphodite.  But it is a
little dry compared to the aliveness and poetry you might bring to
the role.
  I suggested Julienne because she is such a reactive feeling type.
Also her sons are nearing marriage age.  There were other reason.
  I once suggested Stephan be Eros.  But he wanted to be an ant.
(I will not make a smiley face...I will not...)
  Really I hope people will chose the role that mean the most to
them and their own growth.  But To insisted, doncha know? (I will
not...)
  How about it?
  Nancy

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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 17:31:28 -0500
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Janell--what wonderful news!  Best wishes and joy to you and yours. New
life, new hope, new love.   --Susan

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Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:39:13 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: shrinks
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Hi Stephen,

On Sun, 20 Sep 1998 08:13:14 -0400, you, sc <hoon@APK.NET>, wrote:

>Fritz, all,
>
>Would you like to have a dialogue about these ideas?
>
>>I noticed that psychologists (-therapists) are rather intolerant if they feel
>>threatened by a person who exhibits a particular behavior.
>
>(Shall we propose a hierarchy of tolerance according to profession?
>Interesting; generally, what is the most tolerant profession?)
>
>I've noted persons of 'different stripes' generally have some sort of
>limit, a tolerance if you will, past which particular behaviors to which a
>person is subjected *inevitably* leads to intolerance. As our mandala
>thought problem reveals, the idealized Buddhist monk might impassively
>allow me to belly flop on the half-finished mandala, but the crowd...

I run an email list called INTJ-open, for those who are the Myers-Briggs INTJ
type or interested in that type.

I started out like every other list I've started, open and free (except for
rules against libel and plagiarism) but open to challenge too.  I started that
list because another one closed, another INTJ open list that was having problems
with some people who were doing the verbal equivalent of belly-flopping on sand
mandalas, as well as rolling around on sand where people were just starting new
mandalas, pissing on it etcetera.

Dog in the manger, I think the term is.

It seemed to me that much of the power these people had to shut down that other
list had to do with other people paying attention to them.  I was determined to
allow these people on my list if they wanted to be there but not respond with
any of the satisfying screeching that happened on the first list, just tell them
they sound stupid.

Someone on a related list once described her problems with a parrot she had,
that she unwittingly exacerbated by yelling every time the parrot would bite
her.  This is the "drama reward" much prized by parrots; the parrot who
screeches is saying "you got me, you're the boss."  It seemed to me that this
was the barometer of progress these people were using; if it gets people upset,
they're doing something, they're effective, they're alive.  So I thought, don't
give them the drama reward.  Bore them to tears if necessary, ignore them part
of the time and yawn in their faces the rest of the time.

Unfortunately, they had more staying power than most of the others on that list.
Unfortunately, I could not give enough encouragement to the others to just
ignore these people and discuss whatever they wanted to discuss.  And I think
most people do not have a strong enough "people filter" to ignore the kind of
taunting and childish behavior these people were displaying.

So that is the only list I have that has rules beyond "no libel and no
plagiarism."  It could not survive without the third rule, the civility rule.
As list owner I decide what civility is, note it publicly on the list
immediately when it occurs, and have removed two people, one of whom has
returned and is now no longer belly-flopping on the mandalas.

I wish I could have left it the way it was before.  I spend time on Usenet which
is unmoderated and one thing about the good usenet newsgroups is that each has a
self-protecting culture, with room on the fringes for variation.  Yet instead of
running to mommy or daddy list owner, the newsgroup members band together
themselves and do whatever it takes to solve a problem.

But the people on my INTJ-open list are often new to the idea of any kind of net
participation, and it's a different kind of place.  More sheltered.  I like the
hothouse analogy you drew; these plants are young and may not be able to live on
the steppes, or might learn to but can't right now.

>Indulge me some simplistic wandering about these ideas. "Conformity" isn't,
>obviously, a single aspect. Individuals choose, or choose not to,  to
>adhere to norms, while there exists a powerful norming mechanism in almost
>every group. In fact, the idealized group not insisting on this kind of
>boundary making is not encountered; I know I *never* have.

As your Bion quote below says.

>Group dynamics is not exactly old hat. It oddly took some time before
>psychological thinking about group or collective behavior made headway
>against the conceits of sociological and political framings for group life.
>Yet, it seems often the group is analyzed as if it had no psychological
>aspects and thus a catagory error becomes evident: what a person may say
>has not anything to do with behavior or intention. (I note this may have
>roots in the old fashioned fiction of behavior, Fritz.)

A person may be speaking as part of a group, instead of as himself, is what
you're saying?

>"In the groups in which I am a psychiatrist I am the most obvious person,
>by virtue of my position, in whom to vest a right to establish rules of
>procedure. I take advantage of this position to establish no rules of
>procedure and to put forward no agenda. From the moment when it becomes
>clear that I am doing this the group sets out to make good my omissions,
>and the intensity with which it does so shows that more is at stake than a
>passion for efficiency."
>
>(p77; W.R.Bion, _Experiences In Groups_)

As a listowner I can identify with this statement very strongly!

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:39:13 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: New Granddaughter
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On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:13:06 -0400, you, "Janell F. Adair"
<jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>, wrote:

>Hello All:
>
>   My new granddaughter, Cheyenne, entered this world at 9:30PM EST
>September 19, 1998 weighing in at 8 Lbs. 9 Oz. and 20inches long.
>
>  Both Mom and Granddaughter are doing fine!!!!!

Congratulations Janell!  Welcome Cheyenne to this wild world.

-j

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 01:49:13 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
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Walter, all,

It's late evening and I've just been catching up on the last couple or so
days' surge of posts. I found my heart sinking as I read the exchanges
between Julienne and others on the list. Same old same old from Julienne,
and no matter how hard anyone tries, how patient anyone is, how elegant the
dance, it's still ultimately the same pattern. Like moths to the flame. No
wonder the breathing space has gradually been sucked out of this place. So
what is the 'belief set' that has allowed such a negative, hopeless
situation to go on for so long? I'd suggest a reification - or should that
be deification? - of 'the shadow' (sometimes I wonder if it's just a
smokescreen for masochism), an attitude of  'there's something to learn
from everyone no matter how they behave', and a fear of some kind of
'authenticity' being lost through avoidance. Within the group Julienne took
on the mantle of the (group) shadow that had to be confronted, and on and
on it went in a kind of self-perpetuating spiral (or vicious circle, more
like). Walter, I think finally you've been able to call a cigar a cigar (or
a flame a flame, perhaps), and that seems healthy.


While I'm writing:

Judith: thank you for the refreshing perspective you bring here; you always
give me plenty to think about.

Stephen: congratulations on 'outing' yourself namewise; Stephen feels more
direct and focussed than HooN, who always seemed to be playing hide and
seek with his identity (not that there's anything wrong with playfulness).

Nancy: I like what you bring to this list, even though I don't really
understand the stories or the mythology, on some intuitive level I can
relate to the 'aura' of it all, if that makes any sense.

JoAnne: I've watched you allow yourself to explore and be vulnerable here,
and I've valued it, never felt the need to stomp on it. Maybe I can learn
something also...

Janell: congratulations on attaining grandmother status! Now you too can be
old and wise!

Robert: abortion?? murder??? euthanasia??? who's being the drama queen, eh
;) still, I hope it's always time for poetry...

Walter: it's your list, and personally I don't have a problem with you
making choices relating to that fact (though I'd probably still argue with
you about 'firewalling' the list!); well, I expect that you will do nothing
lightly or without due consideration...

Anita: I don't think I've ever exchanged an email with you, how can this
be?? I appreciate the strong and honest voice you bring here. A long while
back I tried to find your books in English, but no luck, then later you
said onlist that they hadn't been translated; is this going to change?
Hmmm, I always wanted to ask that, so now I have...

Well, it's far too late now (too late for what I'm not sure...
reconciliation??)

best to all,

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:51:24 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Subject:      Re: New Granddaughter
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980919221306.00812e50@philly.infi.net>
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Janelle,

What a lovely name, Cheyenne!  May this child embrace life with warm and
wild abandon, may she have roots and wings, may she enrich the world with
her presence ...

bright blessings,

Marie

At 10:13 PM 9/19/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hello All:
>
>   My new granddaughter, Cheyenne, entered this world at 9:30PM EST
>September 19, 1998 weighing in at 8 Lbs. 9 Oz. and 20inches long.
>
>  Both Mom and Granddaughter are doing fine!!!!!
>
>   YEA!!!!!!!
>>   Janell

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:48:36 -0400
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Simon,
Good to hear from you...I have an image of bears emerging from caves after
a long winter nap...was that group dreaming we were doing? (or Indians from
behind trees;-) sorry I couldn't help myself...

Just a couple of thots...

>Walter, all,
>
>It's late evening and I've just been catching up on the last couple or so
>days' surge of posts. I found my heart sinking as I read the exchanges
>between Julienne and others on the list. Same old same old from Julienne,
>and no matter how hard anyone tries, how patient anyone is, how elegant the
>dance, it's still ultimately the same pattern. Like moths to the flame. No
>wonder the breathing space has gradually been sucked out of this place. So
>what is the 'belief set' that has allowed such a negative, hopeless
>situation to go on for so long?

This is getting to the crux of my dilemma...what my son taught me after
coming home having a fight with a classmate was this...In his words: He
told a lie about me and I asked him to stop...he kept telling the lie so I
told him if he didn't stop I was going to beat him up...he kept on so I
decked him...he stopped...I confess it crossed my mind a number of times

I'd suggest a reification - or should that
>be deification? - of 'the shadow' (sometimes I wonder if it's just a
>smokescreen for masochism), an attitude of  'there's something to learn
>from everyone no matter how they behave', and a fear of some kind of
>'authenticity' being lost through avoidance.

I think this is an important point here particularly given the Psyche
superordinate...when is the shadow the shadow or is every response
potentially from the shadow...seems very dualisticduelistic...how does this
tie in with responsibility and accountability? Admittedly I am not adept
with the shadow concept, but I think we get tied up in our bedsheets over
this...unexamined assumptions like moles under the front lawn...or maybe it
is just me...I always come down on the side of self preservation, humor,
and and carry candy bars in my pockets for emergencies :-)

 Within the group Julienne took
>on the mantle of the (group) shadow that had to be confronted, and on and
>on it went in a kind of self-perpetuating spiral (or vicious circle, more
>like). Walter, I think finally you've been able to call a cigar a cigar (or
>a flame a flame, perhaps), and that seems healthy.
I agree
>
>
>While I'm writing:
>
>Judith: thank you for the refreshing perspective you bring here; you always
>give me plenty to think about.

Thanks for this, and I have gained from you also...it is me for better or
worse:-) I spent years fixing what was broke and then I called a moratorium
on self absorbtion...I was boring myself to death...so I announced I was
done fixing stuff and what was left I considered part of my charm,
acknowledging of course that others might hold a different view and I
wouldn't take it personally if they wanted to exit...wonder what's happened
to all those people ;-)

Judith breathing
>_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:04:03 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
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Simon,

> Same old same old from Julienne,
> and no matter how hard anyone tries, how patient anyone is, how elegant the
> dance, it's still ultimately the same pattern. Like moths to the flame. No
> wonder the breathing space has gradually been sucked out of this place. So
> what is the 'belief set' that has allowed such a negative, hopeless
> situation to go on for so long?

I see your point ... and yet i also see the value of all we have done ...
that is it ... no black & white, even now.  As I reflect on the elegance
and patience and various exasperation and so on so many of us have explored
I can see the value in all of it.  That makes me perhaps not the listowner
to suit your preference.  My belief set is a big part of it, and includes
the fact that Psyber-L is about the *psyche* and a reflective look at it
... a list with the purpose of civil and friendly discussion would have me
host in a different way.

> I'd suggest a reification - or should that
> be deification? - of 'the shadow' (sometimes I wonder if it's just a
> smokescreen for masochism), an attitude of  'there's something to learn
> from everyone no matter how they behave', and a fear of some kind of
> 'authenticity' being lost through avoidance. Within the group Julienne took
> on the mantle of the (group) shadow that had to be confronted, and on and
> on it went in a kind of self-perpetuating spiral (or vicious circle, more
> like). Walter, I think finally you've been able to call a cigar a cigar (or
> a flame a flame, perhaps), and that seems healthy.

I appreciate your reflection on this.  Reification & deification -- wow you
may be right!  Central to my understanding of the psyche is that one of the
first foray's into it's realm is facing of what we do not want to face,
rather than avoiding it.  There may be folly in that as you suggest, but
also value.  I have found a point sooner than some, later than others ...
and perhaps my act here is a "facing up to" rather than avoidance ... I
find all this difficult and feel on the whole that breathing is easier ...
I trust that.

~~~

> Walter: it's your list, and personally I don't have a problem with you
> making choices relating to that fact (though I'd probably still argue with
> you about 'firewalling' the list!); well, I expect that you will do nothing
> lightly or without due consideration...

By firewalling, do you mean closed archives and subscription by owner?  I
am looking seriously at these matters (as usual) and I think the situation
is different now, and i think I see it differently.  I thought you liked
the open nature of the list so that someone could wander into it as in a
park, and watch and join in if they wished?  Am I reading you wrong here?


Simon,  Good to hear your voice, see your words (I seem to hear you for
some reason).

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:42:35 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: breathe Eros and Psyche
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Nancy,

> >Can you (To) tell me more of what is on your mind here?  How does the Tower fit
> >into the Psyche & Eros story.
>
> N:The role of the Tower is outlined on pages 60-61 of She.  It is covered
> in more detail in Amor and Psyche (Neumann).

I have a Harper Perennial paperback, revised edition 1989.  On those pages
there is some talk of masculine energy, but no mention of the word Tower.
Perhaps you could give me the name of the section.

>   Now, as to your query, Walter,'but, hey, why me' (if I may be permitted
> to interpolate {if that's what I'm doing...})  May I be permitted
> a small wry grin?  It seems to me that in the instance of Juliene's
> expulsion from this garden, To's casting has been given weight.
>   It had seemed to us that as list owner you are ideally suited for the
> role.  Are you not our bastion?  (What exactly is a 'bastion'?)  Do
> we not hurl ourselves against you 'stony' walls each time you make
> or refer to a 'decision'?

Hmmm  <grin> Here is how i think about these things.  I am *many* and when
i take on a role, that is an aspect of me.  I am a stony stubborn tower at
times, but the role is not all of me.  So when i take on a role in the
drama, in a playful way or in a serious way ... as several of us have been
doing here ... then a *real* part of me is exposed, revealed.  Yet i would
not want it to be seen as all of me, or as my Self.  I think we all have
within our make up such archetypal aspects as The Tower, or The Lamp ...
and we all have them in our unique way.

It is as if I have been dealt The Tower card in the Tarot ... it enables
meditation, play, entertainment, reflection, but I want to drop the role
too and stop the maximization of that one dimension.

> Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't your about
> to be step son about to enter adolescence?  Don't you need to practice?

Not quite!  My son is 26 and Kate's daughter is 19!  I'm through all that
... and have done it with very little towering over & quite successfully I
think.

>  I find the Tower's directives very interesting.  It's advice is
> designed to achieve the exact oposite results for the archetypal
> feminine from those of the Wise Woman in the Third Son fairy tales.
> In the latter it is feeling values which the archetypal masculine
> is to learn.  Whereas with Psyche it is feminine generousity which
> the feminine must learn to inhibit to attain a durable and lasting love.
>   How slow many of us are to learn this.

I will have another look for the relevant text.


> PS Of course someone else could take to part of the Tower.  Charles?
> Fritz?  Any volunteers?

Oh no, I'm taking it on ... just working through the resistance.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:15:48 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Open, closed & semi-permeable
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Judith,

>...I don't
> know what *better ways* means, Walter...isn't safety created within
> self...I need more to go on to get it

The sort of radical responsibility for your own experience, and never
seeing the cause for it outside is as you imply, "clean" and empowering in
that you can attend to those inner states more readily than changing the
other.

I am thinking here as a group leader or therapist ... which includes some
of the roles of the list owner ... architect of the space.  For example I
could 'create' a lack of safety through being lax with time and fees and
professional boundaries.  I would hope that we can still identify other
factors in the whole of Psyber-L that could be addressed.

> There's that word again *temenos* and I had packed about the dictionary:-)

It seems to be hard to find in dictionaries ... apparently it is an old
sacred temple, the word has come to mean a lot to me through its use here
... a sense of safety or containment ... built through from our
participation, and also through the environmental design.  What we are
talking about above.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 07:07:51 PDT
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From:         David Iulian <d_iulian@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      New Granddaughter
Content-Type: text/plain

I remember my grandmother. She was one of the most beautiful things of
my life.
Congratulations!!!
She has a beautiful name.

Iulian :)

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Date:         Mon, 21 Sep 1998 13:07:34 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Open, closed & semi-permeable
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Walter, this helped clarify and resonate to something I am focusing
on...may have mentioned it before in another context

>Judith,
>
>>...I don't
>> know what *better ways* means, Walter...isn't safety created within
>> self...I need more to go on to get it
>
>The sort of radical responsibility for your own experience, and never
>seeing the cause for it outside is as you imply, "clean" and empowering in
>that you can attend to those inner states more readily than changing the
>other.

So maybe the movement of psyche and grouppsyche can be framed along one
formulation of a continuum
dependence-to-independence-to-interdependence...in my life journey I
embraced *radical responsibility* (I like these words) and continued to
deepened into it only to find I began to get glimmers of what
interdependence is...I think sometimes we have experienced the To and Fro
here if I may borrow from you Nancy (hopefully not tainting your meaning
which I am seeking to grok) of movement between these places, sort of like
a 4 dimensional ping pong game...what I think I have learned is that for me
it took the learning from deeply committed radical responsibility to
findcreateembrace the
*temenos* within myself...here I found true compassion and safety and
respect for my willingness to engage radically, plus a lot of success at it
btw...now focusing on experiencing interdependence I am findinglearning
differentmore...

This also I think has to do with the continuum of giving and
receiving...the first being the barter place of I give to get...then the I
give and receive from the universe not necessarily directly where I
give...then to the giving and receiving direct reciprocity, the infinity
loop experience...if I may a little humor from my irreverant aspect

I sent in a small donation to the Save Tibet group and about a week later I
received a profound healing from a Buddihst healer who gave me a seed from
the Dali Lama...I thought to myself "sure glad I mailed that donation!"

>
>I am thinking here as a group leader or therapist ... which includes some
>of the roles of the list owner ... architect of the space.  For example I
>could 'create' a lack of safety through being lax with time and fees and
>professional boundaries.  I would hope that we can still identify other
>factors in the whole of Psyber-L that could be addressed.

I think we continue to do this, Walter, and I for one am learning a helluva
lot and having a helluva good time doing it and there is no where else in
my life in Cleveland that I could have connected with this amazingly
diverse articulate group of people in one *room*

>
>> There's that word again *temenos* and I had packed about the dictionary:-)
>
>It seems to be hard to find in dictionaries ... apparently it is an old
>sacred temple, the word has come to mean a lot to me through its use here
>... a sense of safety or containment ... built through from our
>participation, and also through the environmental design.  What we are
>talking about above.

I'll pay more attention to the word now...thanks

Judith off to memorize
>
>
>Walter
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:00:35 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Sand Mandala
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I thought a picture of one would be nice.

http://users.cyberzone.net/pixxelle/renaissance/buddhism/images/khala1.jpg

Walter
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Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:03:35 +1200
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From:         Brian Pauling <paulingb@CLEAR.NET.NZ>
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>
> I thought a picture of one would be nice.
>
> http://users.cyberzone.net/pixxelle/renaissance/buddhism/ima
> ges/khala1.jpg
>
> Walter

Beautiful Walter!
B
>

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Date:         Tue, 22 Sep 1998 18:26:02 +0300
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From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: breathe Eros and Psyche
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Hello Nancy, Janell , Walter and all,


Nancy, you wrote, Aphrodite represents much that is positive. Not so much
in the Apuleus' tale! She  is totally Bad Mother, and I don't feel myself
easy with "the starring role", so I would like to be the cypress of
Aphrodite, to which  Eros flew  wounded by the  burning oil of  the Little
Lamp. But it is true that  Aphrodite drives Psyche to act, and - as Neumann
says in  his commentary - thus the bad persecuting  archetype is merged
with Sophia-Self, that sets female development in motion and so promotes
individuation.

BTW, Walter, the Tower is very  positive symbol in the tale of Eros and
Psyche. But as  Neumann writes, the tale is also the myth, and "its meaning
must be taken in a collective human sense and not personalistically=85 but a=
s
a universal exemplary action".
Maybe Psyche, then, is the Psyber-L, a feminine vessel containing our
stream of consciousness, giving  to it some from -a vessel of individuation?

Personally I read  the Eros and Psyche myth as a depiction of the creative
process, in  which there is many phases  "labors of  Psyche". It always
begins with  despair and loss and failures.   But in the  end there is the
"hierosgamos", the  conuinctio of the feminine and masculine side of the
psyche and the birth of  the child Hedonia, or Joy in English.

Talking of the child, my congratulations, Janell! A grand-daughter is such
a great Joy.  When my grand-daughter Alisa was born three years  ago, I
realized that I am a link in a long chain of the foremothers, and so Ibegan
to write an autobiographical novel - how foremothers' life and destiny has
influenced to life of my grand-mother, mother and myself. It  was published
last autumn.

Nancy, you wrote that your Finnish mother of law raised up an abusive son.
I don't know what to say. It is such a tragedy, that  the future destiny of
a person  depends on his  parents and childhood home. I guess, that you
have heavy experiences.    I hope, that I'm able to give you a  different
view of my country persons. Maybe you  would like at first  read my
(atypical Finnish) writings in English.  The URL-address is:
http://www.megabaud.fi/~anitak/

 Dolores, there is something for you, too!   =20

Cheers
Anita      =20
=20
  =20
  =20
  =20

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:25:56 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: breathe Eros and Psyche
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http://www.mediacity.com/~vanburen/tower.html

Some synchronicity?

~~~

I have just ordered Amor and Psyche : The Psychic Development of the
Feminine : A Commentary on the Tale by Apuleius (Mythos : The
Princeton/Bollingen Series in World Myth)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0691017727/psybernbooksinasA/


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 14:13:28 -0600
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Janell,

The news of your new granddaughter is wonderful.

>    My new granddaughter, Cheyenne, entered this world at 9:30PM EST
> September 19, 1998 weighing in at 8 Lbs. 9 Oz. and 20inches long.

I echo the *yea!!!!!*  As a grandfather, I know that grandparenting is a
wonderful experience.  Have fun girl ... :)

Robert

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Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 22:20:00 -0400
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Janell,

Robert reminds me, I'll probably never be a grandparent. I have obtained
unclehood, however.

Thus it is I will have to understand it vicariously, through the grand
experiences and reports of others. Feel free to...I'd like to know.

***

congrats,

Stephen

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Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:07:09 -0400
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Subject:      beach combing
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             (())
             ]]]-{
           hey, might I put
          this load down for a moment?


                         - - - ]]]-{
                                                 - - ]]]-{
                                                sure, our reputation
                                                 is sustained, even through
rest!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:24:26 -0400
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Subject:      two fish
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(())
                    ]]]-{
                 ah, the oceanside...
               look over there, playing
                         in the waves,

                          ]]]-{
                     a young man, look how he
                flicks the water with the tips of wings


                                    ]]]-{
                                  and with such glee, he captures
                              fish and throws them back...ahhh
                              cruelness and mercy...together...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:44:32 -0600
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Stephen,

If I may play with the fish ...

> (())
>                     ]]]-{
>                  ah, the oceanside...
>                look over there, playing
>                          in the waves,

ah, the skies
the clouds roiling in the wind
threatening waves of rain

>                           ]]]-{
>                      a young man, look how he
>                 flicks the water with the tips of wings

a young woman, eyes cast down
huddles against the penetrating coldness, darkness

>                                     ]]]-{
>                                   and with such glee, he captures
>                               fish and throws them back...ahhh
>                               cruelness and mercy...together...

and with weary sadness, she turns her head
and looks at the path behind her
wondering why she had to suffer that path ... alone ...

Robert

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Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:44:18 -0400
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Hi Stephen, JoAnne and all,

I appreciate your response to the few lines which I posted recently. =


Re.: scale of tolerance

Stephen:>(Shall we propose a hierarchy of tolerance according to professi=
on?
Interesting; generally, what is the most tolerant profession?)

I've noted persons of 'different stripes' generally have some sort of
limit, a tolerance if you will, past which particular behaviors to which =
a
person is subjected *inevitably* leads to intolerance. As our mandala
thought problem reveals, the idealized Buddhist monk might impassively
allow me to belly flop on the half-finished mandala, but the crowd...<

IMHO: it seems obvious that professions which rely on beliefs rather than=
 on =

verifiable facts will feel threatened by any statements or acts which =

contradict their ideologies. Psychology is a borderline case. We have =

experimental psychology where verifiable experiments are carried out the =

results of which are interpreted in a particular way. While agreement is =

usually achieved if the results are related to other facts of natural sci=
ence =

(c.f. Pawlow's dog) sectarian behavior takes over if so-called schools st=
ep =

in. Since their influence depends on the number of followers, they fight =
the =

other groups in a more or less intolerant manner. I found examples while =

looking into the NLP-group, the WILL-group (Ruth.C.Cohn), Freudians vs. =

Jungians and their second and third derivatives. From my point of view, I=
 tend
to trust statements of psychologists the more they base their views on th=
e =

natural science of the living world and the human animal, especially, as =

biology, biochemistry, pharmacology etc. Sometimes, I might not agree wit=
h a =

particular model or interpretation, but I would not start a crusade again=
st =

it, but rather try to invalidate their explanation by other experimental =
facts
or more rigorous analysis of their assumptions. =

With respect to psychotherapy, I think the variety of methods available w=
ill =

help a particular person to choose the method and the practitioner which =
(s)he
feels attracted to. =

In general, this could also apply to a discussion group. First, you try t=
o =

respond to the ideas expressed by a particular person, in case of disagre=
ement
you try to fathom all aspects until it becomes clear that no further prog=
ress =

is possible, and then you leave it at that. If your counterpart becomes =

unbearable, you freeze her/him out (NLP), in other words you stop your =

responses. In case of flaming or alike you have to check your communicati=
on =

system in order to prevent these attacks reaching you. =


JoAnne:>Did he say he wanted to share a living room with the people he =

disagreed with?<

Is Psyber-L a living room?

This leads to the question of conformity:
Stephen:>Indulge me some simplistic wandering about these ideas. "Conform=
ity" =

isn't, obviously, a single aspect. Individuals choose, or choose not to, =
to
adhere to norms, while there exists a powerful norming mechanism in almos=
t
every group. In fact, the idealized group not insisting on this kind of
boundary making is not encountered; I know I *never* have.<

The existence of a *powerful norming mechanism* is something we should be=
 =

aware of, continuously. It hampers progress in thinking and in the develo=
pment
of an autonomous behavior. The military carries the pressure to conform t=
o a =

maximum. Another example are politicians, who respond with their statemen=
ts to
the conformist strata in society. That why most of them seem to say the s=
ame =

words. =

If a common goal is to be achieved, naturally, conformity in cooperation =
is =

necessary, but if new ideas are to be explored, conformity leads to paral=
lel =

thinking - circular traffic. I guess that some of the success of Charles'=
 =

glass bead game lies in the fact that it induces the participants to thin=
k in =

a non-conformist way.

Stepeh:>Fundamentally, the setting of boundaries or "who's in, who's out,=
" is
central to group life, no matter what the framing which considers it, is.=
<

True, if you like to stay in, you have to conform to a certain degree wit=
h the
particular pattern set by this group, but you have to constantly explore =
the =

boundaries. It may be nice and cosy in the middle but you are losing your=
  =

power of autonomous decisions, too many considerations to take. =

With respect to the cyber-group *Psyber-L* IMO people who cannot take the=
 =

conformist pressure should leave by their free will, but the behavios of =

rebellious members should be handled in another way than by bannishment.

Stephehn:>>This list seems to lead to conformity.

So, Fritz, this comment is of great interest to me. I'd like you to expan=
d
upon it.<

Well, something on this topic has been discussed above. For me and from m=
y =

past experience in life, acclamatory consent to certain acts of authoriti=
es =

leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I don't have to refer to the Bible/New =

Testament or to the more recent history of Germany.
I did not particularily appreciate what Julienne had to say, and I did no=
t =

care for the mud slinging of Julienne/JoAnne when they arrived at Psyber-=
L, =

but I would not have thought of kicking them out for their exchanges. =

Always see the bright side of things! Or in an adaptation of a phrase by =
Gaius
Plinius (23-79 AD): *Nulla est conversatio tam mala, ut non aliqua parte =

prosit*.

Stephen:>Yet, Psyber-L is a heated, moist place, which more than many oth=
er =

possible
virtual locales, allows for a great many fictions like "Temenos" and it i=
s
that very tolerance for psyche which is one of the essential defining
commitments of the group.<

I totally concur with this statement.

FRITZ

PS:
Stephen:>ps-

"In the groups in which I am a psychiatrist I am the most obvious person,=
=2E..<

We don't have a psychiatrist, here. This Psyber-L group is more about cha=
os =

looking for structure.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:06:27 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: breathe Eros and Psyche
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Anita,

> Nancy, you wrote, Aphrodite represents much that is positive. Not so much
> in the Apuleus' tale! She  is totally Bad Mother, and I don't feel myself
> easy with "the starring role", so I would like to be the cypress of
> Aphrodite, to which  Eros flew  wounded by the  burning oil of  the Little
> Lamp.

"Star" and "bad mother" ... it is not even necessary for you to take the
role for us to get some feel for the essence ... I recall reading a book by
Ginet Paris, Pagan Meditations with a wonderful chapter on Aphrodite ... a
celebration of sensuousness, feasting of the eye, smells and touch.


> But it is true that  Aphrodite drives Psyche to act, and - as Neumann
> says in  his commentary - thus the bad persecuting  archetype is merged
> with Sophia-Self, that sets female development in motion and so promotes
> individuation.

If Psyber-L is our Psyche how does Aphrodite drive our collective life
here?  Can you see something in that?


> BTW, Walter, the Tower is very  positive symbol in the tale of Eros and
> Psyche. But as  Neumann writes, the tale is also the myth, and "its meaning
> must be taken in a collective human sense and not personalistically… but as
> a universal exemplary action".

I have been reading "She", Psyche's final task, is given to her by the
tower. I'll try it guided by the book, in first person.


Tower:
"Psyche came to me in a state.  Aphrodite has been driving her ... to the
point of despair, suicide, death.  She comes to me so she can jump off and
kill herself. Psyche is being forced by Aphrodite to go into the underworld
and get Persephone's beauty ointment.  It is like asking her to die, and so
she almost does.

I don't want her to die, i want Psyche to have her breath!

Psyche, here are the instructions, the maps to the secret places where you
will find that you can get to Hades.  First to the opening where the
underworld gets its breath.  You will need two cakes and two coins.

AND when you get the cask with the ointment YOU MUST NOT OPEN IT!"

~~~

> Personally I read  the Eros and Psyche myth as a depiction of the creative
> process, in  which there is many phases  "labors of  Psyche". It always
> begins with  despair and loss and failures.   But in the  end there is the
> "hierosgamos", the  conuinctio of the feminine and masculine side of the
> psyche and the birth of  the child Hedonia, or Joy in English.

It seems we are celebrating a birth here ... but the hierosgamos?  We do
seem to be hovering near the end of the story with some gaps to fill in?

~~~

> Maybe you  would like at first  read my
> (atypical Finnish) writings in English.  The URL-address is:
> http://www.megabaud.fi/~anitak/

Nice picture!  A bit like I imagined you.  I have printed out the english
excerpts, and will take them with me to lunch!

>  Dolores, there is something for you, too!

I'll see if I can find that.


Walter




__________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:39:50 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: shrinks
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On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:44:18 -0400, you, anon <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>,
wrote:

>In general, this could also apply to a discussion group. First, you try to
>respond to the ideas expressed by a particular person, in case of disagreement
>you try to fathom all aspects until it becomes clear that no further progress
>is possible, and then you leave it at that. If your counterpart becomes
>unbearable, you freeze her/him out (NLP), in other words you stop your
>responses. In case of flaming or alike you have to check your communication
>system in order to prevent these attacks reaching you.

I'm glad you made this point because it solidifies a few thoughts I've had about
the situation.

This group will always have new members, therefore there is no way to freeze a
particular person out if he or she seems rational.  New people will become
interested in the person.  Everyone wants to give everyone a chance, be fair,
hear both sides, give the benefit of the doubt, and some people know how to
extend that chance as long as possible, until the next host comes along.

In the meantime everyone else is treated to yet another iteration of the same
lame rationalizations and misleading arguments, often accompanied by a the new
person's "why don't you give so-and-so a chance, why are you picking on that
person?".

So your model of a community freezing out the interloper is a nice one but we
aren't in a stable enough community.

>JoAnne:>Did he say he wanted to share a living room with the people he
>disagreed with?<
>
>Is Psyber-L a living room?

No, it's not a living room, a boat, a tree or a castle.  Yet there is an
analogy; would you welcome all passersby to a conference to speak to the
gathering for as long as they want to, on any subject?

And did he want to share his living room with these people?  Your turn.

>This leads to the question of conformity:
>Stephen:>Indulge me some simplistic wandering about these ideas. "Conformity"
>isn't, obviously, a single aspect. Individuals choose, or choose not to, to
>adhere to norms, while there exists a powerful norming mechanism in almost
>every group. In fact, the idealized group not insisting on this kind of
>boundary making is not encountered; I know I *never* have.<
>
>The existence of a *powerful norming mechanism* is something we should be
>aware of, continuously. It hampers progress in thinking and in the development
>of an autonomous behavior.

Yet that same norming mechanism is the motivation for using the "freezing out"
process you describe above.  And you advocate the same thing.  Your norms are
different, perhaps, than the military or political norms, but you have norms for
this gathering too, don't you?

>The military carries the pressure to conform to a
>maximum. Another example are politicians, who respond with their statements to
>the conformist strata in society. That why most of them seem to say the same
>words.
>If a common goal is to be achieved, naturally, conformity in cooperation is
>necessary, but if new ideas are to be explored, conformity leads to parallel
>thinking - circular traffic. I guess that some of the success of Charles'
>glass bead game lies in the fact that it induces the participants to think in
>a non-conformist way.

Again, they do so within a norm, a game, a structure.  It's not the same norms
for your average discussion group, but those who break them will cause
discomfort or distress to other participants.

You may say, oh great, discomfort or distress, just what we need to get things
rolling.  But I'm not talking about the kind of discomfort or distress that
challenges someone to do something, the zugunruh (there's a German word for you,
probably misspelled) that gets the birds ready to fly north to their new homes.
I'm talking about the kind of thing that stops motion, that averts learning,
breaking the eggs in the nest.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1998 21:51:37 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
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JoAnne, Fritz,

This is in response to:

  Re: shrinks
  Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:39:50 GMT

I changed the header now that Fritz's original post has led to the two
discussions.

> So your model of a community freezing out the interloper is a nice one but we
> aren't in a stable enough community.

JoAnne you have clarified a lot here with the points you make. The act of
freezing out has been attempted here on several occasions, and I think it
has created some awful effects, a harsh climate at times, and silences
which has tinges of passive aggression.

With the listowner / host acting unilaterally it means there is less need
for conformity, and there is a spectrum of different opinion, a there is on
this occasion.

It is clear from what you say that even in a stable community the norm of
freezing out does not work.  Each post has an impact on the whole feel of
the discussion even if it gets no response.

Judith's radical responsibility for her own experience and the Zen silence,
which we have been exploring, has some similarity in its effect to freezing
out.  We can't ignore that there is a collective, where individuals, posts
or silences impact the *life*, the *feel* of the discussion.

Unilateral acts by the person with the finger on the button of course has
huge impact on the whole as well.  There will never be a right way or
moment, yet there are many things to learn about this, and I have grappled
out loud here for years with these questions.  One thing is that the
Charter is important.  It is not only an individual act of power by one
person.  By being here there is agreement to the purposes and norms for
Psyber-L.  The listowner / host's job is to respect those norms, to ensure
that I act with responsibility towards all who have agreed to be here.

It has been obvious that i have not found the task easy, and Fritz's
comment about Chaos to Order makes sense as earlier in the history the
listowners's job was construed as facilitator, and there was no indication
in the Charter about respect etc.

I have noticed that there are many more resources for hosts.  I think
development of  training and mentoring hosts will help a lot.  I don't
think we all have to learn the hard way, well maybe not this hard ...


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1998 04:08:36 -0400
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From:         anon <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      shrinks
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Hi JoAnne and all,

JoAnne wrote on the response to an intolerable exchange:

>This group will always have new members, therefore there is no way to fr=
eeze =

a particular person out if he or she seems rational.<

>In the meantime everyone else is treated to yet another iteration of the=
 same
lame rationalizations and misleading arguments, often accompanied by a th=
e new
person's "why don't you give so-and-so a chance, why are you picking on t=
hat
person?".<

What I mean with freezing out is that you stop your communication with th=
at =

person. Let other (new) members find out for themselves what is behind th=
is =

persons arguments.
Exchange in Psyber-L has the advantage that you are not f2f with the grou=
p, so
no nonverbal solicitation of a (verbal or non-verbal) response does not e=
xist.
This makes it easier to handle such situations.

JoAnne:
>>Is Psyber-L a living room?
No, it's not a living room, a boat, a tree or a castle.  Yet there is an
analogy; would you welcome all passersby to a conference to speak to the
gathering for as long as they want to, on any subject?<

I see Psyber-L as a hall with open doors, rented by Walter. There is a ce=
nter =

stage (with Walter sitting in an arm chair) which everybody may enter and=
 =

address the people gathered around this stage, but there are other tables=
 or =

corners where small groups engage in discussions (as we do) which are ign=
ored =

by the people at the stage and where the small group ignores for some tim=
e =

what is going on on the stage. People come in and leave all the time, so,=
 as =

well as in the center as in the corner each group is in a dynamic equilib=
rium.
Freezing out a person means that you are freezing it out from this partic=
ular =

dynamic equilibrium, but in other words you are freezing the person out o=
f =

your list of people with whom you wish to continue communication on this =

particular topic. =


JoAnne:
>Yet that same norming mechanism is the motivation for using the "freezin=
g =

out" process you describe above.  And you advocate the same thing.  Your =
norms
are different, perhaps, than the military or political norms, but you hav=
e =

norms for this gathering too, don't you?<

As an example I should like to say that I would not continue a discussion=
 with
a catholic on the merrits of the catholic faith over protestant beliefs w=
hen =

it becomes clear that the fundamentals of the belief are touched. Still, =
I =

could discuss with that person the problems of birth control and =

overpopulation.

JoAnne:
>I'm talking about the kind of thing that stops motion, that averts learn=
ing,
breaking the eggs in the nest.<

In f2f situations, it is much more difficult to handle such behavior of o=
ther =

persons in a group because of their physical presence. =

Here, everybody learns for himself, you construct Psyber-L as you want to=
 see =

it and to experience it. The profile of the participants and their saying=
s are
the building blocks from which you construct your experience of Psyber-L.=


FRITZ
  =

 =

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Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:16:39 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: shrinks
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On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 04:08:36 -0400, you, anon <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>,
wrote:

>Hi JoAnne and all,
>
>JoAnne wrote on the response to an intolerable exchange:
>
>>This group will always have new members, therefore there is no way to freeze
>a particular person out if he or she seems rational.<
>
>>In the meantime everyone else is treated to yet another iteration of the same
>lame rationalizations and misleading arguments, often accompanied by a the new
>person's "why don't you give so-and-so a chance, why are you picking on that
>person?".<
>
>What I mean with freezing out is that you stop your communication with that
>person. Let other (new) members find out for themselves what is behind this
>persons arguments.

I understood you the first time.  As I said, this results in:

1.  the person continuing whatever silliness they can with every new person.

2.  the person making provocative statements about you and characterizing you in
highly negative terms to the new people.

3.  the new people asking you what the hell is your problem that you can't get
along with the first person, why you won't answer their perfectly reasonable
questions etc etc.

A game of "let's you and him fight" if you will.

I'm not whining that I can't stand that, that it's the worst thing on earth.  I
handle that all the time on alt.folklore.urban.  It is something I do not like
in this place and that does not seem to further the things I thought we were
trying to do.

>Exchange in Psyber-L has the advantage that you are not f2f with the group, so
>no nonverbal solicitation of a (verbal or non-verbal) response does not exist.
>This makes it easier to handle such situations.

One can shut out whatever one needs to shut out.  I didn't even respond to
Julienne's complaints this last time.  However, that doesn't mean I want to
spend my time in Psyberia with my hands over my ears.

>JoAnne:
>>>Is Psyber-L a living room?
>No, it's not a living room, a boat, a tree or a castle.  Yet there is an
>analogy; would you welcome all passersby to a conference to speak to the
>gathering for as long as they want to, on any subject?<
>
>I see Psyber-L as a hall with open doors, rented by Walter. There is a center
>stage (with Walter sitting in an arm chair) which everybody may enter and
>address the people gathered around this stage, but there are other tables or
>corners where small groups engage in discussions (as we do) which are ignored
>by the people at the stage and where the small group ignores for some time
>what is going on on the stage. People come in and leave all the time, so, as
>well as in the center as in the corner each group is in a dynamic equilibrium.
>Freezing out a person means that you are freezing it out from this particular
>dynamic equilibrium, but in other words you are freezing the person out of
>your list of people with whom you wish to continue communication on this
>particular topic.

I understand that.  But again, not everyone wants to use your model of
communication; many will respond or think about responding to posts from anyone
at any time.

Their filter mechanism for avoiding people they actively dislike is to not be in
that room with them.  Your filter mechanism is different, but you can't force
others to use it or want to use it.

And a major difference is that one person can follow you everywhere, and follow
everyone else everywhere, by replying to every single message in every single
thread.  In essence, become the air in the room, and stink up the joint.

>JoAnne:
>>Yet that same norming mechanism is the motivation for using the "freezing
>out" process you describe above.  And you advocate the same thing.  Your norms
>are different, perhaps, than the military or political norms, but you have
>norms for this gathering too, don't you?<
>
>As an example I should like to say that I would not continue a discussion with
>a catholic on the merrits of the catholic faith over protestant beliefs when
>it becomes clear that the fundamentals of the belief are touched. Still, I
>could discuss with that person the problems of birth control and
>overpopulation.

And if someone insisted on addressing the merits of the catholic faith then
you'd not discuss it with him or her, which is applying the norming mechanism of
"freezing out."  Right?

>JoAnne:
>>I'm talking about the kind of thing that stops motion, that averts learning,
>breaking the eggs in the nest.<
>
>In f2f situations, it is much more difficult to handle such behavior of other
>persons in a group because of their physical presence.

But the advantage is that that person can only be in one place.

>Here, everybody learns for himself, you construct Psyber-L as you want to see
>it and to experience it. The profile of the participants and their sayings are
>the building blocks from which you construct your experience of Psyber-L.

Psyber-L can't be something it isn't; if we use your freezeout idea, it can't be
any more than what goes into it and I put into it.  I could pretend it's a great
place to talk about online auctions or Windows NT device drivers but it isn't
one.

If I consciously omit a person or persons from my view of Psyber-L that is
clearly not going to make that person's effect on others disappear.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1998 23:54:16 -0400
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Subject:      Re: shrinks
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Fritz, all,

You wrote,

>IMHO: it seems obvious that professions which rely on beliefs rather than
>on verifiable facts will feel >threatened by any statements or acts which
>contradict their ideologies.

is it not fair to say some beliefs are on shakier ground than others? Is it
not equally fair to say some facts are in a similar situation? Certainly,
in the latter case, the history of science showcases many examples of the
ground falling away from fact.

But, to speak of "threat" is to speak of human feeling. Even with respect
to science, its history demonstrates clearly how it was scientists in
certain instances came to feel quite threatened by novel intuitions,
developing synthesis, and radical hypothesis, aimed as they were at the
supposed surety of the current "state of knowledge". Fortunately, science
has a somewhat orderly process for verification which mitigates against the
kind of denial "believers" might use to shore their system against
contradiction and counter indication. Still, it's not surprising to note
the human emotion of feeling threatened is not something scientists are
automatically immunized against. Especially given the numerous occasions
when the creation of a new hypothesis, (still untested,) demanded a leap of
faith.

***

What seems common sensically valid is this: where a framework's superiority
is assumed without qualification, we are delivered, logically enough, into
the realm of belief. Assertions of an unfettered superiority are
ideological, even "religious," and, unquestionably, despite their
extravagance, are often the most intolerant of positions. Thus, some
persons who believe in facts are easily threatened by the contradictory
belief in non-facts.

Well, be careful what you wish for; right?

***

Stephen

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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:18:03 -0400
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"In the groups in which I am a psychiatrist I am the most obvious person,...<

[Fritz] We don't have a psychiatrist, here. This Psyber-L group is more
about chaos looking for structure.

As it turns out Bion was not only a psychiatrist working on the ward. His
work is the foundation of an investigation into group life which has a very
simple starting point: the group brought together to form a group life with
no other objectives given to it.

Would it be very surprising to learn many groups cycle from chaos to
structure to chaos to structure, (repeat) ???

Incidentally, the military squad trained harshly and normed to be
disciplined, predictable, focused, is a completely different "squad" when
it returns from having been exposed to other similar, enemy squads really
trying to kill it.

***

Stephen

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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:10:28 -0400
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Subject:      what ants think about
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Fritz, all,

"Psychology is a borderline case."  [snip]

Unintentional word play, yes, Fritz? No doubt "psychology" has an identity
problem.

Of course, there are numerous approaches, and those disciplines range from
hard scientific to hermeneutical frameworks extended into a sort of
teleo-poetic perspective about why we do the things we do. This might as
well describe a continuum. As far as we currently know, humans are the only
beings which represent their behavior and then interpret the
representations. Obvious there is a need for a subset of psychology enabled
to make sense and truth of this actuality.

What abides in this search for understanding about our behavior, are the
contributions each discipline makes. I'm impertinent in my objections to
explanation which over-reaches, (and I'd say over-reaching is almost always
driven by ideological pride,) at the same time I recognize the complexity
and irrationality of human behavior may preclude finality of explanation.

Often I review my favorite psychologists: Shakespeare, Monk, Jung, Weick,
Klee, Rumi, O'Keefe, Rilke, Woodman, my heart, yours... Other times, I
dance, or drum or make droning noises.

***

I'm comfortable here on the liminal edge of this project! I remain
uncertain as to whether there is a greater thing than this nature,
beingness, behavior, so one foot is in uncertainty and the other is in
psychology...intellectually speaking.

Your comments interest me since they hit home, my self travelled from a
preoccupation with mathematics, then a wondering about its fundamental
propositions and later this turned into a curiosity about how abstraction,
the 'calculus', corresponded with explanation, which then turned over in me
a fascination with science's history which led me back to the fundamentals
of philosophy, and its darn history, and then, finally home, to enjoy my
ongoing encounter with the study of human behavior, most usually in the
mode of student of my environment and its various organizations. These
wanderings have met no test or ratification, and perhaps that is why I,
also, often feel a bit outside looking in. I've never felt truly autonomous
nor do I aspire to be so; moreover I've backed off from the
exceptionalistic fallacy...

Somewhat the ants approach.

Stephen

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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:35:59 -0400
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Fritz, you wrote,

"In case of flaming or alike you have to check your communication system in
order to prevent these attacks reaching you."

Yes; your especially fortunate if this "checking of your communication"
system is your capability.

***

The existence of a *powerful norming mechanism* is something we should be
aware of, continuously. It hampers progress in thinking and in the
development of an autonomous behavior.

But, Fritz even the autonomous person is self-norming!

Regarding group life, are there not various feedback loops? And do not the
loops multiply as affiliations and collaborations and conformities are
realized? There are even loops of disconformity, right?

Furthermore, doesn't this require group life to be highly dynamic, lending
to most groups a kind of effervescent pattern-making...a bubbling of those
loops?

***

>True, if you like to stay in, you have to conform to a certain degree with
>the particular pattern set by this group, >but you have to constantly
>explore the boundaries. It may be nice and cosy in the middle but you are
>losing your power >of autonomous decisions, too many considerations to
>take.

Ths seems like a high holy: "autonomous decisions making" but is it really?
I would question the apparent autonomy achieved and questioned whether this
independence is prepared for interdependence.

Meanwhile, the group not only makes boundaries explicitly through reference
or obediance to rules, but has a number of implicit aspects, including
tacit rules which may often supercede the most overt of commonly held
norms. Sometimes these unseen regulatory elements are quite stable, other
times they are not. Nobody much talks about them, or wishes to.

(Enter the management consultant, right?)

***

DIg deeper, and there is the interplay at the level of the unconscious for
which there are feedback loops connecting individual psyche with the
varieties of collectives in the group and also the group as a whole. Here
are the truly hidden, unacknowledged aspects. Here the roots of both
individual and group are sunk into response patterns which may connect up
with instinctual or primitive 'behaviors', sometimes to an extreme extent.

(Bion himself explored unconscious patterns as group formulations against
anxiety. Not central to Jung's project, nonetheless, group life on the
unconscious level is also group life on the archetypal level; Jung in fact
recognized that Levi-Straus's naming of the participation mystique (in
Jungian terms, when the larger group is in unconscious identification with
archetypal constellations and complexes and the the subsequent life of the
group is largely determined by this collective identification,) in
primitive groups was equivalent to a similarly 'primitive' state in group
life. Projective identification carries weight in group life too,
especially in instances when the group assigns leadership, forms dependency
ties, defends against intruders, and enacts its own unconscious narratives,
not the least of which is the "killing" of the leader so assigned, or, as
in the case of Jonestown, the terrible endgame of an almost total primitive
participation.

***

"With respect to the cyber-group *Psyber-L* IMO people who cannot take the
conformist pressure should leave by their free will, but the behaviors of
rebellious members should be handled in another way than by banishment."

This seems an odd statement, Fritz. But I do not think we can thoroughly
explore the real pressures of group life without deepening our
consideration by trying to comprehend, even with regard to an incident, how
complex the actual interplay was, and how its aspects are both explicit and
implicit, regulated "overtly and tacitly", and, above all, or better,
beneath all, partly are patterns manifested out of the murk of the group's
personal/collective unconscious.

Still, in what other way?

***

>I would not have thought of kicking them out for their exchanges.

I don't see Julienne kicked out for her exchanges. The overt reason was
violation of an explicit rule after being warned. But, how on the surface
this reason is, when her most direct recent act was to put the double bind
to Walter again with a simple but brute "Shame on you!".

As Judith pointed out, the whole group was put into a double bind, the
classic one in fact, which proposes burdens be transferred to another, and
then, after the transfer is complete, the latter is punished for having
those same burdens. Bait and switch, indeed. Obviously, such a transfer
should be refused and I and others many time refused it, but this did not
stop the pattern from moving on to the "punishment" phase. witness, the
"Shame on you".

Finally, from my own framing, it was easy to see the constellation of
fierce animosity and cheap yet overbearing feeling in the exchange called
The Gender War. This animus-anima confrontation, in my view, has been in
the background to Psyber-L for a long time.

It seemed to cycle through the group over and over again; a pattern for
which no novel information from another level likely to make a difference
had entered into the pattern, or, seemed likely to...although one never
knows!

***

However, the key insights regard our own learning about what our own
responses were and may be in the future. Whether those various insights
might be sufficient to support holding the process in a way in which the
options short of banishment, (and likely more productive or compassionate,)
are revealed in future cases will still have to meet the tests those cases
may propose.

But, I don't see this episode played out over many months is about
tolerance or autonomy primarily.

***

Stephen

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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 14:21:46 +0300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: meeting our selves
In-Reply-To:  <v04011703b2321f85829e@[207.54.181.96]>
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 Stephen,  Walter and all,

You  articulate it !  At lastI, too, understand, why it was  so confusing
and muddy  to try to communicate with Julienne. Of course it  was the
double-bind.  How  much  havoc it  made with  Psyber-L!  It was so
subconscious,   and obscure -  and  manipulative.

>I don't see Julienne kicked out for her exchanges. The overt reason was
>violation of an explicit rule after being warned. But, how on the surface
>this reason is, when her most direct recent act was to put the double bind
>to Walter again with a simple but brute "Shame on you!".

You made an allusion  to Judith's  earlier post, that

> the whole group was put into a double bind, the
>classic one in fact, which proposes burdens be transferred to another, and
>then, after the transfer is complete, the latter is punished for having
>those same burdens. Bait and switch, indeed."

That makes  sense to me.

Walter, you  asked:

>If Psyber-L is our Psyche how does Aphrodite drive our collective life
>here?  Can you see something in that?


 Maybe the Gender War (caused by the negative  anima - Aphrodite ) was the
first labor of  Psyber-L. And now it is time to  analyze and  put  in order
the  confused heap of  seeds. It seems to me, that  both Stephen ( in his
role of the ant) and Judith  have already   got some order done, at least
in Julienne's case.

My best wishes
Anita








Anita
anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.megabaud.fi/~anitak/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 12:15:19 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: meeting our selves
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Anita,

>  Maybe the Gender War (caused by the negative  anima - Aphrodite ) was the
> first labor of  Psyber-L. And now it is time to  analyze and  put  in order
> the  confused heap of  seeds. It seems to me, that  both Stephen ( in his
> role of the ant) and Judith  have already   got some order done, at least
> in Julienne's case.

Yes!  I have that sense of us working through the seeds!  Beautiful.  So
many seeds that have not yet grown.  You are right, about the order being
created ... I have appreciated JoAnne's clarity in the debate with Fritz,
has helped me to see it in perspective.  Thanks JoAnne.  If someone put it
all together we would have a good essay on the various approaches &
allocation of responsibility  for the life of the collective.  But it is
all here in the living flesh of Psyber-L so who needs an essay!

Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:37:18 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: meeting our selves
In-Reply-To:  <v04011703b2321f85829e@[207.54.181.96]>
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Stephen

> Finally, from my own framing, it was easy to see the constellation of
> fierce animosity and cheap yet overbearing feeling in the exchange called
> The Gender War. This animus-anima confrontation, in my view, has been in
> the background to Psyber-L for a long time.
>
> It seemed to cycle through the group over and over again; a pattern for
> which no novel information from another level likely to make a difference
> had entered into the pattern, or, seemed likely to...although one never
> knows!

Reflecting on the distinction between Anima and psyche James Hillman in The
Myth Of Analysis comes up with this:

"... latent within the anima confusion i the psyche, straining to awaken;
and this psyche, as the old tale tells us, was a beautiful, moody,
suicidal, rather inexperienced girl, in naive relation with her sisters and
the Goddesses."  Page 52.

Perhaps our persistent return to this tale is just the sort of "information
from another level" you are thinking of Stephen?





***

> However, the key insights regard our own learning about what our own
> responses were and may be in the future. Whether those various insights
> might be sufficient to support holding the process in a way in which the
> options short of banishment, (and likely more productive or compassionate,)
> are revealed in future cases will still have to meet the tests those cases
> may propose.

Could you put this in another way ... I am not sure i get it.  I am
interested as options short of banishment are definitely my preference.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 10:14:34 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: meeting our selves
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>> However, the key insights regard our own learning about what our own
>> responses were and may be in the future. Whether those various insights
>> might be sufficient to support holding the process in a way in which the
>> options short of banishment, (and likely more productive or compassionate,)
>> are revealed in future cases will still have to meet the tests those cases
>> may propose.
>
>Could you put this in another way ... I am not sure i get it.  I am
>interested as options short of banishment are definitely my preference.
>
>
>Walter,

There I went again! Ooops. (Actually, it's HooN's fault.)

***

We might (each?)  learn stuff from this experience which will help us make
more options for meeting future challenges.

Okay? :-)

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:10:21 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Ode to Psyche
In-Reply-To:  <v04011705b232a6d3a099@[207.54.181.81]>
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Ode to Psyche

O Goddess! hear these tuneless numbers, wrung
By sweet enforcement and remembrance dear,
And pardon that thy secrets should be sung
Even into thine own soft-conchéd ear:
Surely I dreamt to-day, or did I see
The wingéd Psyche with awakened eyes?
I wandered in a forest thoughtlessly,
And, on the sudden, fainting with surprise,
Saw two fair creatures, couchéd side by side
In deepest grass, beneath the whispering roof
Of leaves and trembléd blossoms, where there ran
A brooklet, scarce espied:
'Mid hushed, cool-rooted flowers, fragrant-eyed,
Blue, silver-white and budded Tyrian,
They lay calm-breathing on the bedded grass;
Their arms embraced, and their pinions too;
Their lips touched not, but had not bade adieu,
As if disjoinéd by soft-handed slumber,
And ready still past kisses to outnumber
At ender eye-dawn of aurorean love:
The wingéd boy I knew;
But who wast thou, O happy, happy dove?
His Psyche true!

O latest born and loveliest vision far
Of all Olympus' faded hierarchy!
Fairer than Phoebe's sappire-regioned star,
Or Vesper, amorous glow-worm of the sky;
Fairer than these, though temple thou hast none,
Nor altar heaped with flowers;
Nor virgin-choir to make delicious moan
Upon the midnight hours;
No voice, no lute, no pipe, no incense sweet
From chain-swung censer teeming;
No shrine, no grove, no oracle, no heat
Of pale-mouthed prophet dreaming.

O brightest! though too late for antique vows,
Too, too late for the fond believing lyre,
When holy were the haunted forest boughs,
Holy the air, the water, and the fire;
Yet even in these days so far retired
From happy pieties, thy lucent fans,
Fluttering among the faint Olympians,
I see, and sing, by mine own eyes inspired.
So let me be thy choir, and make a moan
Upon the midnight hours;
Thy voice, thy lute, thy pipe, thy incense sweet
From swingéd censer teeming --
Thy shrine, thy grove, thy oracle, thy heat
Of pale-mouthed prophet dreaming.

Yes, I will be thy priest, and build a fane
In some untrodden region of my mind,
Where branchéd thoughts, new grown with pleasant pain,
Instead of pines shall murmur in the wind:
Far, far around shall those dark-clustered trees
Fledge the wild-ridgéd mountains steep by steep;
And there by zephyrs, streams, and birdsm and bees,
The moss-lain Dryads shall be lulled to sleep;
And in the midst of this wide quietness
A rosy sanctuary will I dress
With the wreathed trellis of a working brain,
With buds, and bells, and stars without a name,
With all the gardener Fancy e'er could feign,
Who breeding flowers, will never breed the same:
And there shall be for thee all soft delight
That shadowy thought can win,
A bright torch, and a casement ope at night,
To let the warm Love in!


John Keats
30 April 1819




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 11:53:01 EDT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Larry Germansky <L069344000@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ode to Psyche
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Could someone tell me how I can unsucribe to this network?
Larry
E-Mail L069344000@aol.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 18:37:23 +0100
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Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
In-Reply-To:  <36060ff5.126410425@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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At 10:04 am +0100 21/9/98, Walter Logeman wrote:
>Simon,
>
>> Same old same old from Julienne,
>> and no matter how hard anyone tries, how patient anyone is, how elegant the
>> dance, it's still ultimately the same pattern. Like moths to the flame. No
>> wonder the breathing space has gradually been sucked out of this place. So
>> what is the 'belief set' that has allowed such a negative, hopeless
>> situation to go on for so long?
>
>I see your point ... and yet i also see the value of all we have done ...
>that is it ... no black & white, even now.  As I reflect on the elegance
>and patience and various exasperation and so on so many of us have explored
>I can see the value in all of it.  That makes me perhaps not the listowner
>to suit your preference.  My belief set is a big part of it, and includes
>the fact that Psyber-L is about the *psyche* and a reflective look at it
>... a list with the purpose of civil and friendly discussion would have me
>host in a different way.

Walter, I think you've read in(to) my words something other than what was
intended, and mistaken my point. Maybe I wasn't clear in the expression.
The 'my point' that you see seems to exclude me seeing "the value in all of
it". Yet my comment "no matter how hard anyone tries, how patient anyone
is, how elegant the dance" was, I thought, an allusion to the value, not a
denial of it.

But my main point was at the systemic level of the pattern, so maybe
"negative, hopeless pattern" in the last sentence would have been clearer.
Though it did seem to me, as I was reacting to the last round of messages,
that the situation had become hopeless as well. I have the impression that
you thought so too, as later in your post you say "I find all this
difficult and feel on the whole that breathing is easier ...". Anyway,
you're incorrect in your conclusion about my preferences concerning
listowner and list purpose.

>> I'd suggest a reification - or should that
>> be deification? - of 'the shadow' (sometimes I wonder if it's just a
>> smokescreen for masochism), an attitude of  'there's something to learn
>> from everyone no matter how they behave', and a fear of some kind of
>>'authenticity' being lost through avoidance. Within the group Julienne took
>> on the mantle of the (group) shadow that had to be confronted, and on and
>> on it went in a kind of self-perpetuating spiral (or vicious circle, more
>> like). Walter, I think finally you've been able to call a cigar a cigar (or
>> a flame a flame, perhaps), and that seems healthy.
>
>I appreciate your reflection on this.  Reification & deification -- wow you
>may be right!  Central to my understanding of the psyche is that one of the
>first foray's into it's realm is facing of what we do not want to face,
>rather than avoiding it.  There may be folly in that as you suggest, but
>also value.

I didn't suggest anything about folly in facing rather than avoiding. I was
suggesting that reifying or deifying 'the shadow' (on reflection, both -
the first leading to the second) takes it all too far - into the domain of
ideology/idolatry, perhaps.

I think Judith's comment "when is the shadow the shadow or is every
response potentially from the shadow...seems very dualisticduelistic...how
does this tie in with responsibility and accountability?" is very pertinent
here.

>I have found a point sooner than some, later than others ...
>and... perhaps my act here is a "facing up to" rather than avoidance..

Yes, that is exactly it. But  I think previously you construed it as
avoidance. That switch makes my point about "a fear of some kind of
'authenticity' being lost through avoidance" being problematic. And, to
relate back to my previous point, calling a cigar a cigar could be seen as
a way of not deifying the shadow.

>I find all this difficult and feel on the whole that breathing is easier ...
>I trust that.

I understand. Good that you trust being able to breath!

>> Walter: it's your list, and personally I don't have a problem with you
>> making choices relating to that fact (though I'd probably still argue with
>> you about 'firewalling' the list!); well, I expect that you will do nothing
>> lightly or without due consideration...
>
>By firewalling, do you mean closed archives and subscription by owner?  I
>am looking seriously at these matters (as usual) and I think the situation
>is different now, and i think I see it differently.  I thought you liked
>the open nature of the list so that someone could wander into it as in a
>park, and watch and join in if they wished?  Am I reading you wrong here?

I hadn't thought in terms of closed archives, more the 'subscription by
owner' concept, acting as a filter at the entry point (hence firewalling).
Yes, I did (and still do) prefer the open, anyone-can-wander-in approach.
Are you thinking that I've reached a different conclusion?

As I recall, you originally floated the idea of the listowner as entry
filter, and were leaning towards it at the time. I'm not clear how you see
it now. Picking up on your words, how is the situation different for you,
and how do you see it differently?


>Simon,  Good to hear your voice, see your words (I seem to hear you for
>some reason).
>
>Walter

Thank you, Walter. I'm intrigued that you hear me; the tone is not grating,
I take it! I tend to have vague, impressionistic images of people -
probably all wrong! For instance, I see you with white hair, and possibly a
beard!

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 10:45:49 PDT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         linda martin <lmartin47@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: shrinks
Content-Type: text/plain

Hello.
Is there room in your psyberian living room for a person in the middle
of psychoanalysis?
lucy

>Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:16:39 GMT
>Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
>Subject:      Re: [P] shrinks
>To:           PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>
>On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 04:08:36 -0400, you, anon
<101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>,
>wrote:
>
>>Hi JoAnne and all,
>>
>>JoAnne wrote on the response to an intolerable exchange:
>>
>>>This group will always have new members, therefore there is no way to
freeze
>>a particular person out if he or she seems rational.<
>>
>>>In the meantime everyone else is treated to yet another iteration of
the same
>>lame rationalizations and misleading arguments, often accompanied by a
the new
>>person's "why don't you give so-and-so a chance, why are you picking
on that
>>person?".<
>>
>>What I mean with freezing out is that you stop your communication with
that
>>person. Let other (new) members find out for themselves what is behind
this
>>persons arguments.
>
>I understood you the first time.  As I said, this results in:
>
>1.  the person continuing whatever silliness they can with every new
person.
>
>2.  the person making provocative statements about you and
characterizing you in
>highly negative terms to the new people.
>
>3.  the new people asking you what the hell is your problem that you
can't get
>along with the first person, why you won't answer their perfectly
reasonable
>questions etc etc.
>
>A game of "let's you and him fight" if you will.
>
>I'm not whining that I can't stand that, that it's the worst thing on
earth.  I
>handle that all the time on alt.folklore.urban.  It is something I do
not like
>in this place and that does not seem to further the things I thought we
were
>trying to do.
>
>>Exchange in Psyber-L has the advantage that you are not f2f with the
group, so
>>no nonverbal solicitation of a (verbal or non-verbal) response does
not exist.
>>This makes it easier to handle such situations.
>
>One can shut out whatever one needs to shut out.  I didn't even respond
to
>Julienne's complaints this last time.  However, that doesn't mean I
want to
>spend my time in Psyberia with my hands over my ears.
>
>>JoAnne:
>>>>Is Psyber-L a living room?
>>No, it's not a living room, a boat, a tree or a castle.  Yet there is
an
>>analogy; would you welcome all passersby to a conference to speak to
the
>>gathering for as long as they want to, on any subject?<
>>
>>I see Psyber-L as a hall with open doors, rented by Walter. There is a
center
>>stage (with Walter sitting in an arm chair) which everybody may enter
and
>>address the people gathered around this stage, but there are other
tables or
>>corners where small groups engage in discussions (as we do) which are
ignored
>>by the people at the stage and where the small group ignores for some
time
>>what is going on on the stage. People come in and leave all the time,
so, as
>>well as in the center as in the corner each group is in a dynamic
equilibrium.
>>Freezing out a person means that you are freezing it out from this
particular
>>dynamic equilibrium, but in other words you are freezing the person
out of
>>your list of people with whom you wish to continue communication on
this
>>particular topic.
>
>I understand that.  But again, not everyone wants to use your model of
>communication; many will respond or think about responding to posts
from anyone
>at any time.
>
>Their filter mechanism for avoiding people they actively dislike is to
not be in
>that room with them.  Your filter mechanism is different, but you can't
force
>others to use it or want to use it.
>
>And a major difference is that one person can follow you everywhere,
and follow
>everyone else everywhere, by replying to every single message in every
single
>thread.  In essence, become the air in the room, and stink up the
joint.
>
>>JoAnne:
>>>Yet that same norming mechanism is the motivation for using the
"freezing
>>out" process you describe above.  And you advocate the same thing.
Your norms
>>are different, perhaps, than the military or political norms, but you
have
>>norms for this gathering too, don't you?<
>>
>>As an example I should like to say that I would not continue a
discussion with
>>a catholic on the merrits of the catholic faith over protestant
beliefs when
>>it becomes clear that the fundamentals of the belief are touched.
Still, I
>>could discuss with that person the problems of birth control and
>>overpopulation.
>
>And if someone insisted on addressing the merits of the catholic faith
then
>you'd not discuss it with him or her, which is applying the norming
mechanism of
>"freezing out."  Right?
>
>>JoAnne:
>>>I'm talking about the kind of thing that stops motion, that averts
learning,
>>breaking the eggs in the nest.<
>>
>>In f2f situations, it is much more difficult to handle such behavior
of other
>>persons in a group because of their physical presence.
>
>But the advantage is that that person can only be in one place.
>
>>Here, everybody learns for himself, you construct Psyber-L as you want
to see
>>it and to experience it. The profile of the participants and their
sayings are
>>the building blocks from which you construct your experience of
Psyber-L.
>
>Psyber-L can't be something it isn't; if we use your freezeout idea, it
can't be
>any more than what goes into it and I put into it.  I could pretend
it's a great
>place to talk about online auctions or Windows NT device drivers but it
isn't
>one.
>
>If I consciously omit a person or persons from my view of Psyber-L that
is
>clearly not going to make that person's effect on others disappear.
>
>-JoAnne
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>


Linda Martin, graduate student
College of Library and Information Science
University of South Carolina
email lmartin47@hotmail.com
phone 803.787.4023


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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:35:16 +0100
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Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
In-Reply-To:  <v01550130b22b2e0d166f@[207.54.181.124]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 3:48 am +0100 21/9/98, Judith Buerkel wrote:
>Simon,
>Good to hear from you...I have an image of bears emerging from caves after
>a long winter nap...was that group dreaming we were doing? (or Indians from
>behind trees;-) sorry I couldn't help myself...

Oh, but I love it when you can't help yourself, Judith... makes me smile!

>I spent years fixing what was broke and then I called a moratorium
>on self absorbtion...I was boring myself to death...so I announced I was
>done fixing stuff and what was left I considered part of my charm,
>acknowledging of course that others might hold a different view and I
>wouldn't take it personally if they wanted to exit...wonder what's happened
>to all those people ;-)

What made you realise you'd reached that point (not just boredom, surely?)?
was it reaching a certain level of being able to cope? or a certain level
of feeling comfortable with yourself?

I guess the worst thing would be if fixing became merely getting the next
fix...

>Judith breathing

Simon, glad of that...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 19:50:32 +0100
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      How to unsubscribe from psyber-l
In-Reply-To:  <4343a570.360d0ddd@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Larry,

In the To: field of a new email message write: listserv@home.ease.lsoft.com

In the body of the message write: signoff psyber-l

Send the message.

If all works as it should, you will be unsubscribed from this list.


Simon, plain and simple

At 4:53 pm +0100 26/9/98, Larry Germansky wrote:
>Could someone tell me how I can unsucribe to this network?
>Larry

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:45:34 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         anon <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      what ants think about
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi Stephen and all,

ants organize into states in order to guarantee the perpetuation of their=
 =

species. They seem to have a clear goal.

>[Stephen] What abides in this search for understanding about our behavio=
r, =

are the contributions each discipline makes. I'm impertinent in my object=
ions =

to explanation which over-reaches, (and I'd say over-reaching is almost a=
lways
driven by ideological pride,) at the same time I recognize the complexity=

and irrationality of human behavior may preclude finality of explanation.=
<

This seems to be one of the great problems of contemporary science and =

philosophy. We don't have anymore an universal genius capable of integrat=
ing =

the contributions of the various disciplines into the *finality of =

explanation*, so, each discipline has its own Pope who tries to put the w=
hole =

complexity into the straight jacket of the contributions produced by his =

discipline (*over-reaching*).

>[Stephen]Your comments interest me since they hit home, my self travelle=
d =

from a preoccupation with mathematics, then a wondering about its fundame=
ntal
propositions and later this turned into a curiosity about how abstraction=
,
the 'calculus', corresponded with explanation, which then turned over in =
me
a fascination with science's history which led me back to the fundamental=
s
of philosophy, and its darn history, and then, finally home, to enjoy my
ongoing encounter with the study of human behavior, most usually in the
mode of student of my environment and its various organizations. These
wanderings have met no test or ratification, and perhaps that is why I,
also, often feel a bit outside looking in. I've never felt truly autonomo=
us
nor do I aspire to be so; moreover I've backed off from the
exceptionalistic fallacy...<

I took a similar road, studying science and making a living from what I =

learned, a kind of (quantum)mechanic so to say. I always remained interes=
ted =

in the philosophical consequences of the scientific discoveries, graduall=
y =

shifting into the study of human behavior, since in physics an experiment=
 =

depends on the observer, in quantum mechanics the observation perturbes t=
he =

sytem. In general, if we talk about social systems, we have to ask about =
the =

observer who reports certain *facts*. Everyone's autonomy, IMO, is embedd=
ed in
the process of constructing in one's mind the outside world as (s)he =

experiences it. =

The overruling principle of doubt says: It may be totally different. =


FRITZ

  =

   =

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:45:38 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         anon <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      meeting our selves, Date:Sat, 26 Sep 1998 00:35:59 -0400
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi all,

>The existence of a *powerful norming mechanism* is something we should b=
e
aware of, continuously. It hampers progress in thinking and in the
development of an autonomous behavior.<

[Stephen] >But, Fritz even the autonomous person is self-norming!<
Agreed. =


What I mean are the powerful norming mechanisms exerted by groups or
indiviuals who try to increase the number of their followers and their
influence by setting rules of behavior or thinking which are not to be
questioned.The self-norming is a process which requires work on behalf of=

yourself while accepting the norms of a higher authority without
questioning might give you the illusion of a safe haven but with the pric=
e
of losing part of your autonomy.

[Stephen]>This seems like a high holy: "autonomous decisions making" but =
is
it really? I would question the apparent autonomy achieved and questioned=

whether this
independence is prepared for interdependence.<

One example where what you question is essential is a team of montain
climbers. Independent competence  is the essential inescapable condition
for interdependence; and I don't mean the tricks of the trade, only, but
the human self-assurance (autonomous behavior) which allows one member of=

the team to put his life into the hands of the others.
In other domains of human endeveor autonomy of different degree may be
required. =


>(Enter the management consultant, right?)< Right!

The rest of your e-mail, I shall think about it in more detail.

FRITZ

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:45:41 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         anon <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      shrinks, Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:16:39 GMT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

JoAnne wrote:

>I understand that.  But again, not everyone wants to use your model of
communication; many will respond or think about responding to posts from =

anyone
at any time.

Their filter mechanism for avoiding people they actively dislike is to no=
t be =

in
that room with them.  Your filter mechanism is different, but you can't f=
orce
others to use it or want to use it.

And a major difference is that one person can follow you everywhere, and =

follow
everyone else everywhere, by replying to every single message in every si=
ngle
thread.  In essence, become the air in the room, and stink up the joint.<=


I did not propose that my way of handling such mail is to be copied by ot=
hers.
All I was saying is, that I have a trash can on my desk top and all what =
I =

don't like to read ends up there.
I don't take Psyber-L that serious as you apparently do. I hope I will no=
t be =

expelled for this calumny.

>And if someone insisted on addressing the merits of the catholic faith t=
hen
you'd not discuss it with him or her, which is applying the norming mecha=
nism =

of
"freezing out."  Right?<

Right, only these would be my norms which I apply to my acts, not norms =

imposed upon me by some higher authority.

>Psyber-L can't be something it isn't;< =

GIGO! =

>if we use your freezeout idea, it can't beany more than what goes into i=
t and
I put into it.< =

That's right. IMO Psyber-L has not lived up to its description Walter ask=
s =

newcommers to read. =


FRITZ=

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1998 10:03:22 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Simon,

>At 3:48 am +0100 21/9/98, Judith Buerkel wrote:
>>Simon,
>>Good to hear from you...I have an image of bears emerging from caves after
>>a long winter nap...was that group dreaming we were doing? (or Indians from
>>behind trees;-) sorry I couldn't help myself...
>
>Oh, but I love it when you can't help yourself, Judith... makes me smile!
Happening more and more...hummm...moving out of my Drama Queen period :-)
moving it to the stage as it were

>
>>I spent years fixing what was broke and then I called a moratorium
>>on self absorbtion...I was boring myself to death...so I announced I was
>>done fixing stuff and what was left I considered part of my charm,
>>acknowledging of course that others might hold a different view and I
>>wouldn't take it personally if they wanted to exit...wonder what's happened
>>to all those people ;-)
>
>What made you realise you'd reached that point (not just boredom, surely?)?
>was it reaching a certain level of being able to cope? or a certain level
>of feeling comfortable with yourself?
No Simon it actually was about chewing old gum...not about coping
either...about changing the superordinate of my life...and about what was
necesary to do my life task...at some point what was needed to be
reformulated in order to successfully complete the task was enuf and then
it was about just concentrating on getting the task done with the who I
was...also there is an element of necessity around integration which
involves practicing the learning...and then there is a very real
dissintegrationintegration at a certain energetic level leading to a
different energetic...something about fullness of the moment when the water
does in fact change structure into steam...once that occured working on the
previous *me* structure wasn't a necessity...before it was about keeping
the heat turned up in order to come into the new structure, after the new
structure emerged it was about increasing the resonnance of the structure
to bring cohesion...different focus and very different
superordinate...always in service of my life path task which was completed
3 years ago...since then the complete dissintegration of my body occured
which in my framing was the releasing of all the patterns of *before* which
are no long necessary to this reincarnational time for me and holding this
time in innocence and the not knowing, holding the mystery which was not a
part of my past life equation...I had to *know* in order to do the
task...now that is not necessary and in fact may exacerbate whatever is
emerging into my life presently

>
>I guess the worst thing would be if fixing became merely getting the next
>fix...
Yeah...I see a lot of that in the "healing" focus here in the US...
>
>>Judith breathing
>
>Simon, glad of that...
>
Thanks as always Simon
Judith back to her script

>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1998 17:09:55 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: shrinks, Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:16:39 GMT
In-Reply-To:  <199809261545_MC2-5AC1-B09C@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello anon <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>, on Sat, 26 Sep 1998 15:45:41 -0400
you wrote:

>JoAnne wrote:
>
>>I understand that.  But again, not everyone wants to use your model of
>communication; many will respond or think about responding to posts from
>anyone
>at any time.
>
>Their filter mechanism for avoiding people they actively dislike is to not be
>in
>that room with them.  Your filter mechanism is different, but you can't force
>others to use it or want to use it.
>
>And a major difference is that one person can follow you everywhere, and
>follow
>everyone else everywhere, by replying to every single message in every single
>thread.  In essence, become the air in the room, and stink up the joint.<
>
>I did not propose that my way of handling such mail is to be copied by others.
>All I was saying is, that I have a trash can on my desk top and all what I
>don't like to read ends up there.
>I don't take Psyber-L that serious as you apparently do. I hope I will not be
>expelled for this calumny.

Why would you be expelled for not taking Psyber-L as seriously as you think
I do?  I don't think that ignoring other people who bother you is enough
for us to exercise our group norming on you, or for Walter to exercise his
owner-norming on you either.

In groups where a person is removed, it is common for others to express
their fear of being removed.  Every email list I've been on that has gone
through having a member removed goes through the agonizing reappraisal,
whether the removal was accomplished by vote, unilateral action, or
shoutdown.

>>And if someone insisted on addressing the merits of the catholic faith then
>you'd not discuss it with him or her, which is applying the norming mechanism
>of
>"freezing out."  Right?<
>
>Right, only these would be my norms which I apply to my acts, not norms
>imposed upon me by some higher authority.

This is the crux of it, then, for you; that Walter exercised a norming on
the group without the group's consent?  It seems there's some assent after
the fact, and some dissent.

I wonder what kind of backchannel existed prior to Walter's act and if it
had an effect on his decision.  And what other things going on in Walter's
life (which he shared with us a little, in what seemed almost studious
understatement) were a part of his action.

Even though Walter may have a stronger voice in the sense of being able to
remove people from the list, he is still not omnipotent.  We can re-form
and meet elsewhere.  Onelist.com has made that an easy choice.

>>Psyber-L can't be something it isn't;<
>GIGO!
>>if we use your freezeout idea, it can't beany more than what goes into it and
>I put into it.<
>That's right. IMO Psyber-L has not lived up to its description Walter asks
>newcommers to read.

What do you find missing?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:44:21 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         WFSchmidt <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      shrinks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

JoAnne wrote:

>If I consciously omit a person or persons from my view of Psyber-L that =
is
clearly not going to make that person's effect on others disappear.<

Do you want to control who is making which effect on somebody else?

FRITZ

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 13:31:22 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
In-Reply-To:  <v03110702b2329945ed53@[195.200.13.155]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon,


> Walter, I think you've read in(to) my words something other than what was
> intended, and mistaken my point. Maybe I wasn't clear in the expression.
> The 'my point' that you see seems to exclude me seeing "the value in all of
> it". Yet my comment "no matter how hard anyone tries, how patient anyone
> is, how elegant the dance" was, I thought, an allusion to the value, not a
> denial of it.

Sorry I did not convey that you saw that value ... I picked up on your words
about allowing the "situation to go on for so long?" I presumed from those
words that you would have liked to see me act sooner.  I can see that might
not be quite accurate either (words can be slippery things).


> But my main point was at the systemic level of the pattern, so maybe
> "negative, hopeless pattern" in the last sentence would have been clearer.
> Though it did seem to me, as I was reacting to the last round of messages,
> that the situation had become hopeless as well. I have the impression that
> you thought so too, as later in your post you say "I find all this
> difficult and feel on the whole that breathing is easier ...". Anyway,
> you're incorrect in your conclusion about my preferences concerning
> listowner and list purpose.

Well I like hearing that ... presuming that you think both are OK! <G>




> I didn't suggest anything about folly in facing rather than avoiding. I was
> suggesting that reifying or deifying 'the shadow' (on reflection, both -
> the first leading to the second) takes it all too far - into the domain of
> ideology/idolatry, perhaps.
>
> I think Judith's comment "when is the shadow the shadow or is every
> response potentially from the shadow...seems very dualisticduelistic...how
> does this tie in with responsibility and accountability?" is very pertinent
> here.
>
> >I have found a point sooner than some, later than others ...
> >and... perhaps my act here is a "facing up to" rather than avoidance..
>
> Yes, that is exactly it. But  I think previously you construed it as
> avoidance. That switch makes my point about "a fear of some kind of
> 'authenticity' being lost through avoidance" being problematic. And, to
> relate back to my previous point, calling a cigar a cigar could be seen as
> a way of not deifying the shadow.

There may be some misunderstandings here, but I like the overall reflection
on the avoidance / facing up concepts.  Sometimes to make an end, to avoid
more of the same is a facing -up.  Sometimes to enter again and again into
the battle zone is to avoid making an ending or a retreat.

> >By firewalling, do you mean closed archives and subscription by owner?  I
> >am looking seriously at these matters (as usual) and I think the situation
> >is different now, and i think I see it differently.  I thought you liked
> >the open nature of the list so that someone could wander into it as in a
> >park, and watch and join in if they wished?  Am I reading you wrong here?
>
> I hadn't thought in terms of closed archives, more the 'subscription by
> owner' concept, acting as a filter at the entry point (hence firewalling).
> Yes, I did (and still do) prefer the open, anyone-can-wander-in approach.
> Are you thinking that I've reached a different conclusion?

I see.  As it happens Psyber-L is now Subscription=owner.  It has changed
little other than that i can get a glimpse of the email address before it
goes onto the list.  I have not figured out how to filter key words in an
address.  None of these things offer tight security but they are a step.  I
am thinking about changing it so that new members get a chance to see the
charter and email me if they wish to join.

> As I recall, you originally floated the idea of the listowner as entry
> filter, and were leaning towards it at the time. I'm not clear how you see
> it now. Picking up on your words, how is the situation different for you,
> and how do you see it differently?


I have some thoughts about other lists etc. and changes in one area influence
others. I am not ready right now to make any big changes, but am interested
in hearing ideas.  One thing is for sure, whatever develops, I would keep
Psyber-L constant in its purpose and identity.


> >Simon,  Good to hear your voice, see your words (I seem to hear you for
> >some reason).
> >
> >Walter
>
> Thank you, Walter. I'm intrigued that you hear me; the tone is not grating,
> I take it! I tend to have vague, impressionistic images of people -
> probably all wrong! For instance, I see you with white hair, and possibly a
> beard!

NOt at all grating!  Warm in fact, even though there are those
misunderstandings.  They are your images, so they can't be wrong, but they do
not match my features.  Only mildly grey at the temples, no beard! I must get
a picture up, though i am reluctant! (it would prevent the imagination
filling in the gaps!)


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:40:04 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Stephen's post "where we are"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Stephen,

I found much to think about, chew over, in your post "meeting our selves," and I
wanted to tell you I found it very helpful in coalescing (coagulating?) some of
those issues for me.  I've shared some of these thoughts with some friends.

The unspoken part of any group norm intrigues me.  As a person who likes to have
and write rules, I also know there's a place where the rules end and the dark or
bright edge begins.  That unruly territory is unfamiliar to me and I know it's
important for me to become more familiar with it.

Thank you for the insights.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 16:58:15 -0600
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: shrinks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Fritz,

In your post, you finished with the statement:

> We don't have a psychiatrist, here. This Psyber-L group is more about chaos
> looking for structure.

This is a powerful statement.  Wolfgang Geigerich speaks about
psychiatry, psychology and how they are misguided in a focus on the
individual, how the focus is needed upon the collective.  In the
introduction to his essay which is to be the focus of the next Jung
Seminar which begins on Sunday, next.  He talks about how the rescue of
the soul is found in the rescue of the world.  He talks about how soul
is not limited to the individual, but part of an anima mundi, in other
words, we are in search of soul in the collective as it is found even in
places such as PSYBER-L.  I know that I do a great disservice to
Geigerich in trying to simplify his thought so much.  But, it does fit
with your statement which he would rephrase "chaos looking for
soul/psyche" which fits well within our dialogue of *architecture*.

Just a reminder that Giegerich's article is available at:
                http://www.cgjung.com/jungsem.html

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:50:08 -0600
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: shrinks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Lucy,

You ask:

> Is there room in your psyberian living room for a person in the middle
> of psychoanalysis?

Is there any other kind of person here?  Even psychotherapists are in a
state of being in the middle of psychoanalysis.  Welcome :)

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1998 09:03:48 PDT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         linda martin <lmartin47@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: shrinks
Content-Type: text/plain

Robert, I am actually Linda.  I lied about my name.  I am very
intimidated by this "chat".  Thank you for responding to my question. I
am also in graduate school, so I have little time to totally digest all
that I read of your conversations.  Still, I am looking to "chat" with
others who are being or have been analyzed.
There.  My feet are wet.
linda
>Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1998 20:50:08 -0600
>Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
>Subject:      Re: [P] shrinks
>To:           PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>
>Lucy,
>
>You ask:
>
>> Is there room in your psyberian living room for a person in the
middle
>> of psychoanalysis?
>
>Is there any other kind of person here?  Even psychotherapists are in a
>state of being in the middle of psychoanalysis.  Welcome :)
>
>Robert
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>


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