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To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 00:49:42 +1200
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Here
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Dear all,

I'm here ... reading, contemplating and appreciating.  I enjoyed watching the
congratulations for Charles on the birth and the Are you my Father?  Are You
my Mother posts?  The very questions I imagine David Trevor is asking in his
own way.

I have been "in" Psyber-L ... I am partially in this virtual space most of
the time.  Especially while I am counselling ... there is hardly a session
goes by when one of our themes here is not alive in my room.  I think to
myself ... if only "they" could see this.  Have started a few posts but did
not like them.  Have not found a way to be here lately, partly cause I am
busy.  Robert thought it might be the heat!  Here in New Zealand it is winter
... but sadly a warm one! No skiing yet.  Warmest since 67.  It is not the
heat that keeps me quiet, apart from the heat at work. I have been very busy
doing f2f work in the last few weeks, a good thing.

On the occasion of the birth, It was good to see so many familiar faces ...
gives me a sense of the life that goes on here that is often difficult to
see.

I have given Psybernet attention in other ways than writing in Psyber-L ...
thinking more than doing.  Shaping some things I'd like to develop, and
others I'd like to complete but am too busy working.

Have had a nasty glitch with my laptop ... now *almost* fixed.  The
dial-up-networking became grossly inefficient and fiddling with it made it
worse ... have now done a total reinstall of Win95 and will set up the DUN
soon.  There is something soothing about taking care of writing instruments
... nice pens and pencils were something I used to fiddle with in the past
but these machines are more tine consuming!

Kate & I seem to have something to do each day towards the wedding we are
having in November.  It is amazing how people rally around and how much focus
and attention flows towards us and our relationship ... very nice!

I am up here on my own at the holiday house this weekend ... very restful and
that makes it easy to write.

Warm wishes,


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:48:25 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: are you my password?
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998073122463778@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 00:54:07 +0100, Simon G. Trask  wrote:
>
>>Thanks Nancy, and happy birthday. I had a good laugh at the lyrics, trying
>>to imagine them sung cockney knees-up style by Chas 'n' Dave... (you don't
>>want to know...)
>>
> N:  OH, Yes, I DO!!!  Tell all....

Chas 'n' Dave are kind of a national institution/embarrassment, relics of a
bygone age when people actually used to sing songs like 'Knees Up Mother
Brown' and 'Roll Out The Barrel' round the old pub joanna (cockney rhyming
slang for 'piana', I believe!). These days it's jukeboxes and karaoke
machines, while the 'trendy' pubs have their own DJs spinning club tracks
on the old wheels of steel.


>>As for bobbies on bicycles, if a news clip I saw on TV a few days ago is to
>>believed, they could be set to make a comeback -
>
>  N" We still have 'em in Athens.  Grand Jury's been hearing many grand
>  tales of daring do, about how the offices sped up to and tackles preps
>  from the saddle.

Cor Blimey luv a duck, you got me bang to rights, copper! I done it and
there ain't no use denyin' it. I'll go quietly and do me porridge, guv.

(Help! I'm stuck in a fifties black-and-white movie!)


>  N: Simon  I've been reading 'cosy mysteries' set in the Cotswold.  Where
>  might that be?

The Cotswolds is a range of hills in south-west England, out
Gloucestershire way.  Lovely part of the country it is, too.


>>PS. Would a cycle repair kit be a good prop, Nancy??
>
>  N: Hmmm...I've got the feeling we're headed into pretty rough terraine and
>  better stick with the mules.

Come to think of it, a cycle breaking kit might be more apt... ;)


>    Gee, you two, couldn't you help a gal out and correct my typos before
>  Charles sees them?  I'm almost as embarrassed as poor Dos.

Tpyos? What tpyos? I ain't seen none round these 'ere parts, constibule.


>     Nancy
>     Going off to try to make peace in her own household

Simon, going off into the sunshine (but not the sunset, hopefully)...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:49:23 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Nancy S. Smith" <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?

______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:33:44 -0400
>From:    Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
>Subject: Re: are you my password?
>
>M a n y   H a p p y B i r t h d a y s, Nancy!!
>
>Love,
>
>Julienne
>
>------------------------------
N:  Thank you, Julienne, for your gracious good wishes.  I will lay them
away tenderly in my rose satin lined memory chest.


                                _I*I_


_________________________________________________________
>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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_______________________________________________________________
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>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>------------------------------
>
>End of PSYBER-L Digest - 29 Jul 1998 to 31 Jul 1998 (#1998-162)
>***************************************************************
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:05:31 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?
In-Reply-To:  <19980801.094924.14406.0.mossy7@juno.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I love your playfulness with message formatting and spelling, Nancy! Like
the time you hid your reply in my quoted text  (yeah, I spotted it!).

In yours and Judith's honour, I'm quoting a whole message below! <grin>

Simon

>______________________________________________________________
>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date:    Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:33:44 -0400
>>From:    Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
>>Subject: Re: are you my password?
>>
>>M a n y   H a p p y B i r t h d a y s, Nancy!!
>>
>>Love,
>>
>>Julienne
>>
>>------------------------------
>N:  Thank you, Julienne, for your gracious good wishes.  I will lay them
>away tenderly in my rose satin lined memory chest.
>
>
>                                _I*I_
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>_______________________________________________________________
>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP
>>>_______________________________________________________________
>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>------------------------------
>>
>>End of PSYBER-L Digest - 29 Jul 1998 to 31 Jul 1998 (#1998-162)
>>***************************************************************
>>
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 08:49:51 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

Bonne Anniversaire! Another July baby like me :)  When was the fortunate
event?  I turned 49 just a while ago (July 22).  Oh!  I just want to let
you and Dos know that I am working of building up that wing muscle ...
and *NO*, twinkies aren't props, they are part of the hard wiring of who
we are as guys, Dos.  Tell that to Jud.

love,

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:05:02 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jud absolutely not able to help herself...Judith asking forgiveness in
advance ;-)

>Nancy,
>
>Bonne Anniversaire! Another July baby like me :)  When was the fortunate
>event?  I turned 49 just a while ago (July 22).  Oh!  I just want to let
>you and Dos know that I am working of building up that wing muscle ...
>and *NO*, twinkies aren't props, they are part of the hard wiring of who
>we are as guys, Dos.  Tell that to Jud.
>
>love,
>Robert

Except for the guys who use them to *prop* themselves up...:-) none of
those here as far as I can tell from here inn Cleveland...

Jud listening in
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:07:15 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Tks, Simon...

Judith feeling very honored and very happy to hear you here or is it here
you hear...where's that dictionary when you need it

>I love your playfulness with message formatting and spelling, Nancy! Like
>the time you hid your reply in my quoted text  (yeah, I spotted it!).
>
>In yours and Judith's honour, I'm quoting a whole message below! <grin>
>
>Simon
>
>>______________________________________________________________
>>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>>>
>>>------------------------------
>>>
>>>Date:    Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:33:44 -0400
>>>From:    Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
>>>Subject: Re: are you my password?
>>>
>>>M a n y   H a p p y B i r t h d a y s, Nancy!!
>>>
>>>Love,
>>>
>>>Julienne
>>>
>>>------------------------------
>>N:  Thank you, Julienne, for your gracious good wishes.  I will lay them
>>away tenderly in my rose satin lined memory chest.
>>
>>
>>                                _I*I_
>>
>>
>>_________________________________________________________
>>>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP
>>>>_______________________________________________________________
>>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>>------------------------------
>>>
>>>End of PSYBER-L Digest - 29 Jul 1998 to 31 Jul 1998 (#1998-162)
>>>***************************************************************
>>>
>>
>>_____________________________________________________________________
>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:11:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: are you my password?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey you guys,

Re: traffic jams, mules and synchronicities

Pulling in front of me about 30 minutes into the jam a truck with the
following message:

Don't worry about the mule...just load the wagon

I take this to mean many things..yeah?

Judith mining for the gold in the jam

>On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 00:54:07 +0100, Simon G. Trask  wrote:
>
>>Thanks Nancy, and happy birthday. I had a good laugh at the lyrics, trying
>>to imagine them sung cockney knees-up style by Chas 'n' Dave... (you don't
>>want to know...)
>>
> N:  OH, Yes, I DO!!!  Tell all....
>
>>As for bobbies on bicycles, if a news clip I saw on TV a few days ago is to
>>believed, they could be set to make a comeback -
>
>  N" We still have 'em in Athens.  Grand Jury's been hearing many grand
>  tales of daring do, about how the offices sped up to and tackles preps
>  from the saddle.
>
>
>>
>>Talking of traffic jams, Judith writes:
>>>Judith fresh from a 2 1/2 hr traffic jam no thank you...
>>
>>And... today on the bus, coming into central London over Waterloo Bridge,
>>we ran into (well, not literally!) a motley gathering of some 150-200
>>cyclists, complete with police escort, staging what seemed to be a 'rally
>>protest' of some kind - either that or they took a wrong turn on the Tour
>>de France...
>>
>  N: Simon  I've been reading 'cosy mysteries' set in the Cotswold.  Where
>  might that be?
>>
>>PS. Would a cycle repair kit be a good prop, Nancy??
>
>  N: Hmmm...I've got the feeling we're headed into pretty rough terraine and
>  better stick with the mules.  Might you know a good black smith who could
>  be talked into coming along?  Oh, Jud...do you think an anvil...Hmmm...
>  Maybe there's some sort of portable tempory 'shoe kit"...The anvil seems
>  a little....hmmm....excessive?>
>>
>>> And one to welcome Simon back:
>>>
>>>
>>>   England swings like a pendulum do.
>>>   Bobbies on bicyles two by two.
>>>   West Minster Abbey, the tower of Big Ben,
>>>   Rosie red cheeks of the little children.
>>>
>>>   If you huff and puff  and you save enough money
>>>   Have to take your family on a trip,
>>>   A trip across the sea.
>>>   I'll tell you where to to go.
>>>   Go to England do.
>>>   Take a tip,
>>>   Before you take your trip.
>>>
>>>   England swings....
>>>
>>>   Momma's old pajamas,
>>>   Your Papa's mustache.
>>>   Falling out the window sills,
>>>   Frolic in the grass.
>>>   Trying to mock the way they talk,
>>>   Fun but al in vail.
>>>   Gaping at the dapper men with topper hats and canes.
>>>
>>>   England swings...
>>
>    Gee, you two, couldn't you help a gal out and correct my typos before
>  Charles sees them?  I'm almost as embarrassed as poor Dos.
>     Jud, really, he doesn't know where to look with you calling his twinkie
>  a 'prop'.  That is what you meant, wasn't it....Not that it needed a...
>     OK, OK, Dos.  I'm sorry.  I guess I just got carry away.
>     Yes, I know I should be, but I don't think our eagle, Robert, has quite
>  enough wing muscle yet.
>
>     Nancy
>     Going off to try to make peace in her own household
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:20:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: are you my password?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

With appologies to Dos...


>>PS. Would a cycle repair kit be a good prop, Nancy??
>
>  N: Hmmm...I've got the feeling we're headed into pretty rough terraine and
>  better stick with the mules.  Might you know a good black smith who could
>  be talked into coming along?  Oh, Jud...do you think an anvil...Hmmm...
>  Maybe there's some sort of portable tempory 'shoe kit"...The anvil seems
>  a little....hmmm....excessive?>

As some comedian of long ago use to say:  wouldn't hoit
>>
Love this melody continuing to sing in my head
>>>   England swings like a pendulum do.
>>>   Bobbies on bicyles two by two.
>>>   West Minster Abbey, the tower of Big Ben,
>>>   Rosie red cheeks of the little children.
>>>
.
>>
>    Gee, you two, couldn't you help a gal out and correct my typos before
>  Charles sees them?  I'm almost as embarrassed as poor Dos.

Nanc, I was turned down when I auditioned for spellchecher...as previously
stated which is grossly redundantredundent given my messages, spelling is a
very mysterious thing (to me)
>     Jud, really, he doesn't know where to look with you calling his twinkie
>  a 'prop'.  That is what you meant, wasn't it....Not that it needed a...
>     OK, OK, Dos.  I'm sorry.  I guess I just got carry away.

I think I'm ok here on the difference between a twinkie and a prop...not
wanting to embarrass Dos...

Jud hoping she's not making a fall into the world of Freud...but then again

>     Yes, I know I should be, but I don't think our eagle, Robert, has quite
>  enough wing muscle yet.
>
>     Nancy
>     Going off to try to make peace in her own household

Blessings,
Judith
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:38:58 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Here
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,
Happily...I always feel your presence...and I too am having powerful
weavings of my present life themes and what rises here...Stephen and I did
a short workshop where we created a process to evoke group intuition in
service of individual questions...and it was pretty amazing for the
participants...that process was structured based in what I knowexperienced
in the seemingly unstructure of group life...I take note of this happening
here and it certainly feeds my work...

BTW Stephen is finishing our squareONE web site and it is so terrific, as
always he continues to reveal his essence for which I am exceedinly
grateful...we plan our coming out into the world of personal growth at the
Cleveland Whole Life Expo in September...so it feels good emergin from my
dark night of the soul into this soulfull time...

Then my kind of chuckle..this week went back to my fitness center after 6
months where I was absent because of a tear in my rotary cuff...I had just
begun a program in February when this happened and I stopped...anyway went
back to be rerated and Bingo Bango Bongo I had improved!  My kind of
fitness program...the do nothing and improve with a daily homeopathic
cappacinno, muffin, lotsof sitting with the crossword puzzle, few hours on
the couch...the fitness guy suggested I could make money with The Book...I
know the laugh I am having is worth at least 30 minutes on the stationary
bike...

Good to hear from you Walter,
Judith
>Dear all,
>
>I'm here ... reading, contemplating and appreciating.  I enjoyed watching the
>congratulations for Charles on the birth and the Are you my Father?  Are You
>my Mother posts?  The very questions I imagine David Trevor is asking in his
>own way.
>
>I have been "in" Psyber-L ... I am partially in this virtual space most of
>the time.  Especially while I am counselling ... there is hardly a session
>goes by when one of our themes here is not alive in my room.  I think to
>myself ... if only "they" could see this.  Have started a few posts but did
>not like them.  Have not found a way to be here lately, partly cause I am
>busy.  Robert thought it might be the heat!  Here in New Zealand it is winter
>... but sadly a warm one! No skiing yet.  Warmest since 67.  It is not the
>heat that keeps me quiet, apart from the heat at work. I have been very busy
>doing f2f work in the last few weeks, a good thing.
>
>On the occasion of the birth, It was good to see so many familiar faces ...
>gives me a sense of the life that goes on here that is often difficult to
>see.
>
>I have given Psybernet attention in other ways than writing in Psyber-L ...
>thinking more than doing.  Shaping some things I'd like to develop, and
>others I'd like to complete but am too busy working.
>
>Have had a nasty glitch with my laptop ... now *almost* fixed.  The
>dial-up-networking became grossly inefficient and fiddling with it made it
>worse ... have now done a total reinstall of Win95 and will set up the DUN
>soon.  There is something soothing about taking care of writing instruments
>... nice pens and pencils were something I used to fiddle with in the past
>but these machines are more tine consuming!
>
>Kate & I seem to have something to do each day towards the wedding we are
>having in November.  It is amazing how people rally around and how much focus
>and attention flows towards us and our relationship ... very nice!
>
>I am up here on my own at the holiday house this weekend ... very restful and
>that makes it easy to write.
>
>Warm wishes,
>
>
>Walter
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:16:09 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?
In-Reply-To:  <v01550103b1e8a64e27d7@[207.54.181.26]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Tks, Simon...
>
>Judith feeling very honored and very happy to hear you here or is it here
>you hear...where's that dictionary when you need it
>
>>I love your playfulness with message formatting and spelling, Nancy! Like
>>the time you hid your reply in my quoted text  (yeah, I spotted it!).
>>
>>In yours and Judith's honour, I'm quoting a whole message below! <grin>
>>
>>Simon

Judith, it's good to resonate with your presence here again :) Excuse me
while I go silent for a couple or so days; I'll use the time to try and
figure out a connection between 'twinkie' and 'propping myself up' (anyway,
isn't a twinkie a chocolate bar?!).

Simon, wondering also about the (psyber)spatial alignment of 'away' and
'back', 'absent' and 'present', 'distant' and 'close'...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:11:47 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Power and Construction in Psyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Walter,

Good to hear from you again as you relax in your holiday house.  I will
be leaving again on Monday morning for a two week stay in the Calgary
area to complete the intensive part of analysis.  Beginning in
September, I will devote one weekend per month to the Calgary
pilgrimmage :)  The rest of my time can be freed for the other side of
living and interacting.  By the way, thanks for the kind words about the
poems.  Now back to this long-delayed response.

> I am pleased  you pick up on this discussion, I never seem to have enough
> of this sort of reflection, obviously because there is a lot to learn about
> this specifically for the list owner ... even if it is just dealing with
> the feeling that what happens here is heavily influenced by the
> "construction" that I have done.

And, I hasten to add, what happens here is heavily influenced by what
*I* haven't done.  I say this in reflecting upon my role as list-owner.
Sins of commission and sins of ommission.

> > Walter, these are real things that are of course aspects of architecture
> > that are within the "power" of the list owner.  I, too, have enjoyed
> > similar "power" with both the DNET and JUNG lists.  But, I don't for a
> > moment see that power as very significant.  The real power lies within
> > the "community" of subscribers.  Often here in psyber-l this is seen,
> > especially when you shift into the role of analytical observer of the
> > process that transpires.
>
> Hmmm ... many different powers and influences ... I see them as
> interrelated.  For example in the role of "analytical observer" I am
> conscious that the purpose of the list and the charter influence what I
> write.

Yes, very true.  I have found this to be part of my approach to the JUNG
list and how I introduce new threads, or attempt pulling back
participants from tangents that could soon leave one wondering exactly
what list they were on.  I do think that even non-listowners do this
within groups, but perhaps listowners are more *conscious* of this, more
often.  I know others in this PSYBER-L gathering are also list-owners.
What do *you* have to say in regards to this?

> The list's charter and even how the list is promoted will influence who
> joins it, and what people do there.  There is power in words!  And there
> are some places where the LO is the only one who can write them.  Imagine a
> list ... Whatever-L  ... that creates a very different warm-up, to use the
> psychodrama jargon.  If the list is *not* Whatever-L then the list owner or
> members can remind each other what the purpose is.

Yes, this has been the case with JUNG.  Others have *reminded* their
peers about the *purpose* of the gathering to conversation.  On the DNET
group, the latest list charter was arrived at through group discussion.
Strange how with that being done, the list has almost gone dormant.  It
almost appears as though too much democracy is a killer.  With no one
acting as *leader* there is no *life*.  Part of my autumn work is to go
back to DNET and see what I can do to *revive* it.

> > I notice that on the JUNG list, it is others who seem to be the "force"
> > that gives that list life.  All my contribution amounts to is that of
> > landlord who doesn't even demand rent money.  My role of listowner there
> > is minimal.
>
> I am on the list, but have not been in a position to read it.  I intend to
> do that one day <laugh>.  Is it going to your satisfaction?  Is there a
> charter, or focus for the list?  Clinical discussions? Some depth analysis
> of specific themes?  Is it achieving your vision for it?

It's busy and I don't really know what is happening.  No clinical
discussions of note (I thought that there would be more); no real depth
work that touches dreams (stranger still is the fact that the word
*dream* is rarely mentioned). As for my *vision* for JUNG, I'd have to
say that my vision for the list is not "static".  As the list evolves,
my understanding and hopes for the list also change.  I am satisfied
that it is doing relatively well, especially for our northern hemisphere
summer period.

> > However on the DNET list, my silence translates to list
> > silence, my participation generally invites a busy dialogue among the
> > otherwise silent aundience.
>
> What do you make of that?  Is that ok by you?

I've mentionned it above.  It isn't something that pleases me, nor is it
something that weighs on me.  Given more time in the fall, I will see
what can be done about the silence.  If the silence continues, then it
is likely that I will close the list.  A list doesn't exist for a
list-owner alone.  A list needs an active community that has an
investment in the list.

> > > I was interested in your comment about making a place for the
> > > introductions.  That is an architectural decision.  One way would
> > > be simply to have a page on the web with links to members intros
> > > in the archives and to their home pages etc.
> >
> > Is there a spot on psybernet for these?
>
> I could make one.  I will do it ... make a list of members with links to
> any file in the archives and to their home pages etc.  Please let me know
> if you would like to be listed on such a list.  Lets mention this from time
> to time and let it evolve.  Have others had experience with this on other
> lists?  NetDynam?

I am looking forward to this.  If time allows, I will try doing the same
for both JUNG and DNET.  There is an option for photos to be used along
with the letters of introduction which I think could be useful for
some.  This idea of letters of introduction and photographs on a linked
web-site would only work on groups which have participants who are
transparent in their participation, that is they do not mask their
identity.  Probably all *professional* groups would benefit from this.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:28:24 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Judith,

> >and *NO*, twinkies aren't props, they are part of the hard wiring of who
> >we are as guys, Dos.  Tell that to Jud.
> >Robert
>
> Except for the guys who use them to *prop* themselves up...:-) none of
> those here as far as I can tell from here inn Cleveland...
>
> Jud listening in

Welllll ... I must admit that at times .... But them again I would
characterize this use as *foundational* work whose purpose is
co-constructional.

Robert (blushing through his deep tan)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:28:39 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Simon,

Good to have you back :)

> while I go silent for a couple or so days; I'll use the time to try and
> figure out a connection between 'twinkie' and 'propping myself up' (anyway,
> isn't a twinkie a chocolate bar?!).

Yes, a chocolate treat of some kind (never seen or tasted one though,
the candy bar I mean ... oops).  Connections?  I'll need to think about
that one too.

Robert
- who must leave to drive an ambulance in the community parade and throw
candy to the toddlers watching the parade on this beautiful, sunny
Saturday in Saskatchewan, Canada.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:41:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?
In-Reply-To:  <35C35047.4C81@sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 11:28 AM 8/1/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Simon,
>
>Good to have you back :)
>
>> while I go silent for a couple or so days; I'll use the time to try and
>> figure out a connection between 'twinkie' and 'propping myself up' (anyway,
>> isn't a twinkie a chocolate bar?!).
>
>Yes, a chocolate treat of some kind (never seen or tasted one though,
>the candy bar I mean ... oops).  Connections?  I'll need to think about
>that one too.

Now, unless I am memory deficient in the realm of "goodies" (association
intended!) - a Twinkie is a somewhat phallic-shaped cake-like concoction
with a cream filling ...  not enough substance to act as a prop in any way!

I suppose I should be blushing myself now, but I am more inclined to giggle!

Marie

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:43:51 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Here

On Sun, 2 Aug 1998 00:49:42 +1200, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:


>  I think to
>myself ... if only "they" could see this.

N: I wish we were, Walter.  Maybe you have a lot of 'virtual flies on the
wall!'


>On the occasion of the birth, It was good to see so many familiar faces ...
>gives me a sense of the life that goes on here that is often difficult to
>see.

>Kate & I seem to have something to do each day towards the wedding we are
>having in November.  It is amazing how people rally around and how much focus
>and attention flows towards us and our relationship ... very nice!

N: I'm glad for you both.  Lot's of warm feelings all round.


>I am up here on my own at the holiday house this weekend ... very restful and
>that makes it easy to write.

N: I wonder what 'your house' is like?  Is it log?  Is there water?
We used to have 30 acres in Wisc. with a lake and an island in the lake.  Two
log cabins.  Really neat.  Right now my nephew (he just got his pilot's
license) and niece (she is studying for the ministry and very interested
in Jung) are up on their island in Lake Erie.  More log cabins.
  Sorry I left you out when I was 'calling the rolls' the other day.  You
need to drop in on us more often.
  Best to Kate,

  Nancy
  Netscape is really weird.  Over at Internet explorer I read Judith's
to your post, but it ain't here yet!
_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:01:32 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jud LOL!!!
PS Robert the blush looks good on you;-)
PPS Marie,Twinkies use to be my fav junk food...there I go again...sorry:-)

>At 11:28 AM 8/1/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>>Simon,
>>
>>Good to have you back :)
>>
>>> while I go silent for a couple or so days; I'll use the time to try and
>>> figure out a connection between 'twinkie' and 'propping myself up' (anyway,
>>> isn't a twinkie a chocolate bar?!).
>>
>>Yes, a chocolate treat of some kind (never seen or tasted one though,
>>the candy bar I mean ... oops).  Connections?  I'll need to think about
>>that one too.
>
>Now, unless I am memory deficient in the realm of "goodies" (association
>intended!) - a Twinkie is a somewhat phallic-shaped cake-like concoction
>with a cream filling ...  not enough substance to act as a prop in any way!
>
>I suppose I should be blushing myself now, but I am more inclined to giggle!
>
>Marie
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 14:17:43 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?
In-Reply-To:  <v03110701b1e8cfc77329@[195.200.17.50]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Making an art form out of it that is something else again! <grin>  Spot the
Birthday greeting!
>>>>>>>I love your playfulness with message formatting and spelling, Nancy!
Like
>>>>>>>the time you hid your reply in my quoted text  (yeah, I spotted it!).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In yours and Judith's honour, I'm quoting a whole message below!
<grin>
This would look good printed on Judith's hand made paper!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Simon
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>______________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>>>>>>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Date:    Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:33:44 -0400
>>>>>>>>>From:    Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: are you my password?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>M a n y   H a p p y B i r t h d a y s, Nancy!!
And from me too Nancy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Love,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Julienne
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>>>N:  Thank you, Julienne, for your gracious good wishes.  I will lay
them
>>>>>>>>away tenderly in my rose satin lined memory chest.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                                _I*I_
>>>>>>_I*I_
>>>>>>?
>>>>>>Perhaps a moustache... as did Duchamp on the Mona Lisa ... or while we
are on our bikes we could add in a few track marks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>>>>>>>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>>>>>>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP
>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>>>>>>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>>>>>>>>------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>End of PSYBER-L Digest - 29 Jul 1998 to 31 Jul 1998 (#1998-162)
>>>>>>>>>***************************************************************
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_____________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>>>>>>>>Get completely free e-mail from Jung at http://www.jung.com
>>>>>>>>Or call Jung at (800) 654-JUNG [654-5866]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>>>>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>_______________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>>>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>>>>>__________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

>>>>
>>>
>>
>
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 11:32:48 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Are you my pass word?
In-Reply-To:  <v01550107b1e930d0545f@[207.54.181.26]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

ant 1 > where did you find these folks?


                        ant 2 > I have my connections...


ant 1 > But, that's incredible!

                                        ant 3 > They're so strong!

ant 1 > Yeah, it should take millions...

                                        ant 3 > more, but only four of 'em

ant 1 > are carrying the anvil.

                        ant 2 > It's neat. Luckily, they owed me a favor.

                                        ant 3 > And they work without
complaint.

ant 1 > Work without complaint? My goodness, they're humming while they work!


***

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:06:46 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Subject:      ants and others
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

[especially for hoon]

***

Ants and Others

Their spare, fanatic sentry comes
across the miles of afternoon
and finds us out, our single crumb
left dozing in a yellowed spoon,
sets up his wireless, reports
to Brown Shirts, comrades, pantry thieves.
(Their army goes like coffee grounds
down doorknobs, drains, up balconies
we meant to guard from minor lusts,
but lacked the key or missed the time.)
Defenseless now the last crumb leans
beside a cup.  The brown knots climb,
as neat as clocks.  I feel the heat
of other lives, and hungers bent
on honeycombs that are not there,
and do not ask what sweet is meant
for each of us, there being such need
of loaves and fishes everywhere.

Adrien Stoutenberg

***
Marie

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:09:14 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: ants and others
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19980802170646.0093aa54@qed.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

And do you know there is a movie coming out soon called "ANTZ"?
Think you're on to something, Hoon. :)

Julienne


At 05:06 PM 8/2/98 -0400, you wrote:
>[especially for hoon]
>
>***
>
>Ants and Others
>
>Their spare, fanatic sentry comes
>across the miles of afternoon
>and finds us out, our single crumb
>left dozing in a yellowed spoon,
>sets up his wireless, reports
>to Brown Shirts, comrades, pantry thieves.
>(Their army goes like coffee grounds
>down doorknobs, drains, up balconies
>we meant to guard from minor lusts,
>but lacked the key or missed the time.)
>Defenseless now the last crumb leans
>beside a cup.  The brown knots climb,
>as neat as clocks.  I feel the heat
>of other lives, and hungers bent
>on honeycombs that are not there,
>and do not ask what sweet is meant
>for each of us, there being such need
>of loaves and fishes everywhere.
>
>Adrien Stoutenberg
>
>***
>Marie
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 02:02:16 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      stirrings
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

these are clumsy words,
not poetry, maybe poetic,
fumbling to find the opening
to somewhere else,
not saying everything,
not being even-handed, balanced,
just being 'words engaged in a search'...

simon, unsure whether he's propping himself up
or falling on his backside... ;)



stirrings

stirrings, earthiness, joy, connection

to connect with the earthy soul
is to connect with the essence
of ourselves, of others
on a deep level, touching hidden joys,
awakening hidden energies

this is the critique of the abstract,
that the deep stirring forces of creative change
are always embodied, that celebration
and affirmation of life always come
from a deep appreciation of our bodily nature.

we are bodily beings in a profound sense,
always swimming in fluids
imbibing, ejecting,
stirring, soaking
in, up,
floating, drowning,
crying,
wanting.

the answer is always there.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Aug 1998 09:37:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Nancy S. Smith" <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Stirrings - 2 Aug 1998 to 5 Aug 1998 (#1998-165)

Definitely poetic Simon.


On Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:49:39 -0400 Automatic digest processor
<LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM> writes:
>There is one message totalling 48 lines in this issue.
>
>Topics of the day:
>
>  1. stirrings
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date:    Thu, 6 Aug 1998 02:02:16 +0100
>From:    "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>Subject: stirrings
>
>these are clumsy words,
>not poetry, maybe poetic,
>fumbling to find the opening
>to somewhere else,
>not saying everything,
>not being even-handed, balanced,
>just being 'words engaged in a search'...
>
>simon, unsure whether he's propping himself up
>or falling on his backside... ;)
>
>
>
>stirrings
>
>stirrings, earthiness, joy, connection
>
>to connect with the earthy soul
>is to connect with the essence
>of ourselves, of others
>on a deep level, touching hidden joys,
>awakening hidden energies
>
>this is the critique of the abstract,
>that the deep stirring forces of creative change
>are always embodied, that celebration
>and affirmation of life always come
>from a deep appreciation of our bodily nature.
>
>we are bodily beings in a profound sense,
>always swimming in fluids
>imbibing, ejecting,
>stirring, soaking
>in, up,
>floating, drowning,
>crying,
>wanting.
>
>the answer is always there.
>
>------------------------------
Nance: Yes.  You have crystalize for me here my problem with 'the
abstract'.  Lately I'd been noticing  'abstractish' feelings about some
postings (which were clearly anything but abstract} andI  realized that ,
in those cases,  I was simply unable (at least at the time of first
reading) to make contact with the person through their words.  Sometimes
after many readings it appeared to me that their words were unclear or to
vague (or too many!) but offen it seemed that the person at the time of
writing was simply just too far from where I was at the time of reading.
'Too many' words tends to induce this feeling in me at most any time.  I
am learning to love periods and paragraph breaks.  Even commas sometimes
connect me to my stirrings of joy.
  Whatcha think?  Doesn't this exemplify the notion that understanding
leads to love? And perhaps its opposite as well.  Harry Stack Sullivan
has a wonderful passage about how hate develops from anxiety.  My
perception is that anxiety is created by our inability to make ourselves
understood.  What say you all?
  Well, this is getting so long that I'm beginning to lose contact with
it, so I'll stop.
  Love to all,  Nancy
  Reconnecting with 'the dance'.
>
>Beginning (?)  of PSYBER-L Digest - 6 Aug 1998 to 10 Aug 1998
(#1998-???)
>*************************************************************
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:22:58 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: stirrings
In-Reply-To:  <v03110701b1eea431348d@[195.200.19.43]>
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Simon, All,

I have had a day off, feeling a bit off colour, and watched the Wim Wenders
film "Wings of Desire".  What a wonderful movie.  It made me think about
your post simon, and Nancy's response and the whole ethereal realm of
cyberspace.  There is plenty to think about in the film ... including a
self reflective look at movies as an abstract realm, and by extrapolation
our own e medium.

The two angels are witnesses to the soul moments of people's lives ...
touched but not in there in the realm of human time, space and physicality.
Damiel envies our bodily existence ... and his relish of it made me glad to
be alive ...

Here is a transcript from the sub titles, Damiel is sharing what he has
witnessed during the day :

~ quote ~

And what do you have to tell?

A woman in the street folded her umbrella while it rained ... and let
herself get drenched.

A shoolboy ... who described to his teacher ... how a fern grows out of the
earth, and the astonished teacher.

A blind woman who groped for her watch ... feeling my presence ...

It is great to live by the spirit, to testify day to day ... for eternity
only to the spiritual side of people.  But sometimes I get fed up with my
spiritual existence.  Instead of forever hovering above ... I'd like to
feel there is some weight to me ... to end my eternity and bind me to the
earth. At each step, each gust of wind, I'd like to be able to say "Now,
now and now" ... and no longer say "since always" and "forever".

To sit at the empty seat at the card table ... and be greeted if only by a
nod.  Whenever we did participate it was only a pretense.  Wrestling with
one of them ... we allowed a hip to be dislocated, in pretense only.  We
pretended to catch a fish.  We pretended to be seated at the tables ... and
drink and eat ... and we were served roast lamb and wine ... in the tents
out there in the desert in pretense.

Not that I want to beget a child or plant a tree right away, but it would
be quite something ... to come home after a long day ... like Philip Marlow
and feed the cat ... to have a fever ... to have blackened fingers from the
newspaper ... to be excited not only by the mind ... but, at last by a meal
... the curve of a neck ... by an ear.  To lie!  Through the teeth!  To
feel your skeleton moving along as you walk.  Finally to suspect.  Instead
of knowing all.  To be able to say, "Ah" and, "Oh" and "Hey" ... instead of
"Yes and "Amen".

For once to be enthused over evil.  To draw the demons of the earth from
passers-by ... and to chase them out into the world.

To be a savage!

Or to fee, at last, what it's like ... to take off your shoes under the
table ... and to stretch your toes, barefoot, like that.

~ end quote ~

Of course he does become human, and the most moving moment for me is when
he relishes a coffee for the first time.


I've captured a shot from the video at:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/wod.htm



Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:27:20 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Power and Construction in Psyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <35d21c01.34245683@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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Robert,

I will get back to your post on this topic but wanted to send up this URL,
on the elegant distinction between design and construction ... perhaps not
exactly on our theme here but I found it interesting ... especially
applying it to the creation of psyberspace environments.

http://www.cooper.com/articles/vbpj_perils_of_prototyping.html

The Perils of Prototyping
by Alan Cooper



Walter


__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:38:25 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Power and Construction in Psyberspace

Is your Father Complex giving you trouble, Walter?
Or am I being obtuse like when I quiried you about your 'log' cabin?
  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:08:03 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Power and Construction in Psyberspace
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Nancy,

you wrote:

> Is your Father Complex giving you trouble, Walter?
> Or am I being obtuse like when I quiried you about your 'log' cabin?

It is a log cabin.  Pine logs that have been treated and machined, but log!

But yes, obtuse might be what i am experiencing.  I have no inkling of a
father complex at the moment, nor particularly any trouble ...

Yes i should drop by more often ... as you mentioned in the earlier post
... but I find the quiet mood here matches my own sense letting the themes
here incubate ... they are doing their work - playing on my mind ...

For example over the last few weeks the topic of civility in relation to
"being real" has cropped up on several occasions.  As has being real as
opposed to being an angel <g>.


Walter





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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:37:35 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Bateson list
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[Forwarded from elselist, for those here who will be interested - Simon]


There is now an email list for discussing Gregory Bateson's work.

To subscribe to Bateson-l address your message to
listserv@listserv.indiana.edu and send the command line below in the body of
your message:

SUBscribe  BATESON-L <your name>

(e.g., "SUB bateson-l Margaret Mead")

All commands to the LISTSERV program must be sent to
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To send messages to the Bateson-l list itself address them to
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The Bateson-l list exists for discussion of all aspects of Gregory Bateson's
ideas.  Subscribers post article drafts, questions, thoughts, comments,
criticisms, elaborations, replies, etc., on all facets of Bateson's work.

(Please cross-post or propagate this notice with subscription information to
appropriate venues.)

Thank you,

Van Piercy (vpiercy@indiana.edu)
PhD candidate
English Dept.
Indiana University

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:09:09 -0400
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From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      What's Happening???
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hello All:


   The list has gone dead.   Any Reason?????


   Janell

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:03:38 +0100
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From:         Jo Morley <jo.morley@VIRGIN.NET>
Organization: Empress Jo
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Ermmmmmm everyone gone on holiday ?????????

Janell F. Adair wrote:

> Hello All:
>
>    The list has gone dead.   Any Reason?????
>
>    Janell
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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<FONT COLOR="#000000">Ermmmmmm everyone gone on holiday ?????????</FONT>

<P>J<FONT COLOR="#000000">anell F. Adair wrote:</FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT COLOR="#000000">Hello All:</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"></FONT>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp; The list has gone dead.&nbsp;&nbsp;
Any Reason?????</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"></FONT>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp; Janell</FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000"></FONT>

<P><FONT COLOR="#000000">_______________________________________________________________</FONT>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Aug 2000 03:35:04 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Janell,

Good to see you are reading the list! <grin>

Reading the silence ...

>    The list has gone dead.   Any Reason?????

This is such an interesting question.  I could say why I am quiet ... which
is complex enough ... I could also say why I think the "list" is quiet ...
now that it the interesting question ... what do *you* think the reason is
for that?

In answering that we would see a story emerge partly related to us as
people together around the world and partly it would reveal what we bring
from our own depths when there is a neat blank canvas like this to paint
on.  And being a modernist (non-post) i tend to think there is some
essential core ... the sociometric matrix or the collective unconscious
underlying our interactions which we can reveal, if dimly with our
speculations.

I just noticed we already have different perspectives at this point ... you
call it *dead* ... while I see this seething massive living silent
breathing organism.  I wonder what this difference reveals?

~~~

Perhaps this is all too philosophical ...

How is everyone?  I would love to hear!


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1998 05:44:26 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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All,

One thing that is happening is that my last post was dated 22 Aug. 2000.  I
have had my PC running like that all day just to see what would happen.
Nothing bad so far.

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:03:51 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???

On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 05:44:26 GMT, Walter Logeman  wrote:

>All,
>
>One thing that is happening is that my last post was dated 22 Aug. 2000.  I
>have had my PC running like that all day just to see what would happen.
>Nothing bad so far.
>
>Walter
>________________________________

N: That's interesting also, Walter.  Do you believe, like I do, that such events can be interpreted like dreams?  Is there anything in your life right now that suggests attention to the 'millinium'?
  I, too, have been curious about the 'silence'.  And before also, wondering if  those who have been around longer have noticed any patterns?  This is Charles baliwick, if I recall.  (How's the young'un?  Thriving, I trust.)
  Nancy
  Having time today to think of and miss her Psyberjung friends.


__________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:30:05 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <39a2f184.511843962@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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Hello Walter:

   I've been reading the list for quite awhile and I've been hesitant to
send something in for a couple of reasons.

   1. The list at times strikes me as very esoteric and that bothers me.

   2. A few times I sent something in and for some reason, not one that I
have an answer to, the post was totally ignored (at least I felt that way).

  I find many of the posts very much "in the head" so to speak and there
seems to be a fear of dealing with things on a feeling level as well. Some
of this may very well be me since I conduct eleven psychodrama groups a
week with chronic mental health clients trying to help them deal with their
feelings. Whatever the answer is I also find myself very tired mentally and
physically by the end of the day and particularly by the end of the week,
so I have little energy left to contribute to philosophical discussions.

  The list may be silent for many reasons, perhaps some are tired of being
in the head so much and simply need some time off, or the demands of the
real world may be pressing at this time. Who knows?????  I do like your
metaphor of a living, breathing organism, although I don't quite view it
the same. To me it's like the group in psychodrama an entity which is more
then the sum of its parts, although I don't see it having a "life" of its own.

  Take care.

  Janell

P.S. I found your use of the date in the year 2000 fascinating.......you
really do plan ahead......don't you???

At 03:35 AM 8/22/00 GMT, you wrote:
>Janell,
>
>Good to see you are reading the list! <grin>
>
>Reading the silence ...
>
>>    The list has gone dead.   Any Reason?????
>
>This is such an interesting question.  I could say why I am quiet ... which
>is complex enough ... I could also say why I think the "list" is quiet ...
>now that it the interesting question ... what do *you* think the reason is
>for that?
>
>In answering that we would see a story emerge partly related to us as
>people together around the world and partly it would reveal what we bring
>from our own depths when there is a neat blank canvas like this to paint
>on.  And being a modernist (non-post) i tend to think there is some
>essential core ... the sociometric matrix or the collective unconscious
>underlying our interactions which we can reveal, if dimly with our
>speculations.
>
>I just noticed we already have different perspectives at this point ... you
>call it *dead* ... while I see this seething massive living silent
>breathing organism.  I wonder what this difference reveals?
>
>~~~
>
>Perhaps this is all too philosophical ...
>
>How is everyone?  I would love to hear!
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 06:02:10 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Janell!

>    I've been reading the list for quite awhile and I've been hesitant to
> send something in for a couple of reasons.
>
>    1. The list at times strikes me as very esoteric and that bothers me.

It is esoteric ... if that means highly specialised and only understood by
a few.  The purpose of the list is to explore the psyche ... that must
narrow the field quite a bit.  Further ... the psyche in cyberspace!  Now
we have gone into a thin little niche ... and then to do this
*experientially*  as in a psychodrama ... not so much intellectually but
through action.  Who can really keep up with us here?  Only those who for
some reason are already familiar with this niche ... the ones who we find
wandering here already ... or those who are intrigued and delve in ... hang
in ...

But why does esoteric bother you?

It bothers me only that it has absorbed me here in cyberspace for 5 and a
half years, and interfered with my life!  On the other hand I love it.

>    2. A few times I sent something in and for some reason, not one that I
> have an answer to, the post was totally ignored (at least I felt that way).

I have a feeling about 50% of what i write here gets ignored, and I think I
have an advantage here in that I am the owner.  I know I ignore most of
what is written here in the sense of not writing back  ... we have to don't
we?  I enjoy reading it all.  Perhaps it does not get ignored as much as we
think?  We may not get immediate responses, but there are people ...
perhaps you?  who read everything!  People who let us know they are there
when we have a birth death or a marriage!

Nancy asked if there was a pattern.  Am I right that this is not the first
time you have popped up when there is a silence?  Or am i imagining that?
I certainly think there are patterns ... we have even called it the ebb and
flow of the list.

>   I find many of the posts very much "in the head" so to speak and there
> seems to be a fear of dealing with things on a feeling level as well.

You are on the theme of the last few months here ... if not a permanent one
here in psyber-l.

My quiet here is full of feeling.  I fear being stupid.  I don't understand
a lot of what has been happening with the unfolding strange Eros and Psyche
stuff.  I find the containment of that utterly lacking.  I am conscious of
Judith's silence and fear for her health, and until this moment have not
found a way to even mention it ... for fear of being intrusive ... I have
been puzzled about Charles ... though I am pleased to see that he has
returned to cyberspace and I have heard that all are well!  Most od all i
have felt *over-worked"  and a little resentful of this "project" in my
life ... its demands.

I perceive your silence ... as a result of your last post ... as full of
feeling too .... fear of being ignored, perhaps a bit annoyed or angry
about that ... I think it is a projection of something else, if i may be so
bold.  Actually you go on to say as much ...

> Some
> of this may very well be me since I conduct eleven psychodrama groups a
> week with chronic mental health clients trying to help them deal with their
> feelings. Whatever the answer is I also find myself very tired mentally and
> physically by the end of the day and particularly by the end of the week,
> so I have little energy left to contribute to philosophical discussions.

Me too!  I want to cut down my work load without cutting my pay!  And use
more time to do this psyber work.

But are the discussions philosophical?  Some are more than others but I can
usually ... to bring in some psychodrama jargon:  see the full expression
of the roles people are in, the feeling, thinking and action component.

Every expression contains all of these components.  Some may be hidden or
ambiguous ... or implied or hinted at but life is like that!

> P.S. I found your use of the date in the year 2000 fascinating.......you
> really do plan ahead......don't you???

Not really ... a friend of mine was a little panicked by the Y2K hype and
thought my computer might blow up or something ... that prompted the change
of date ... just for fun.

Nancy's idea that it is like a dream however makes sense to me ... I have
just given you the surface explanation here ... ie I am not a fastidious
planner!  Millennium does interest me a lot ... I see it as the most
unified warm-up to a date we have ever known.  The process is just dripping
in myth and unconscious depths.  So many images ...

What lies beyond 2000?

It will be a super clean plastic world where all technology works.  We will
have special suits which keep our bodies at optimum temperatures.  Everyone
speaks English.  There will be no third world.  Robots will serve us
politely.  There will be no old buildings.  We have anti-gravity vehicles
for transportation.  The year 2000 is a long time away.

You can see I was a child in the 50s!

Good to chat!



Walter





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:34:17 -0400
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From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Walter:

  Esoteric bothers me because I feel some might be excluded when with a
little help or encouragement they might be able to keep up and/or
contribute something very much worthwhile, and also gain something of value
for themselves.

At 06:02 AM 8/23/98 GMT, you wrote:
>Janell!
>
>>    I've been reading the list for quite awhile and I've been hesitant to
>> send something in for a couple of reasons.
>>
>>    1. The list at times strikes me as very esoteric and that bothers me.
>
>It is esoteric ... if that means highly specialised and only understood by
>a few.  The purpose of the list is to explore the psyche ... that must
>narrow the field quite a bit.  Further ... the psyche in cyberspace!  Now
>we have gone into a thin little niche ... and then to do this
>*experientially*  as in a psychodrama ... not so much intellectually but
>through action.  Who can really keep up with us here?  Only those who for
>some reason are already familiar with this niche ... the ones who we find
>wandering here already ... or those who are intrigued and delve in ... hang
>in ...
>
>But why does esoteric bother you?
>
>It bothers me only that it has absorbed me here in cyberspace for 5 and a
>half years, and interfered with my life!  On the other hand I love it.
>
>>    2. A few times I sent something in and for some reason, not one that I
>> have an answer to, the post was totally ignored (at least I felt that way).
>
>I have a feeling about 50% of what i write here gets ignored, and I think I
>have an advantage here in that I am the owner.  I know I ignore most of
>what is written here in the sense of not writing back  ... we have to don't
>we?  I enjoy reading it all.  Perhaps it does not get ignored as much as we
>think?  We may not get immediate responses, but there are people ...
>perhaps you?  who read everything!  People who let us know they are there
>when we have a birth death or a marriage!
>
>Nancy asked if there was a pattern.  Am I right that this is not the first
>time you have popped up when there is a silence?  Or am i imagining that?
>I certainly think there are patterns ... we have even called it the ebb and
>flow of the list.

  Nancy's intuition is right on, there is a pattern, and you are correct
also,  this is NOT the first time that I popped up when there was a
silence. Sometimes I wonder why I do this myself, but one thing I'm sure of
is that I like it when people are talking. At least then there's a chance
that we'll understand each other. With silence the chance diminishes. Also
within my family of origin if you were angry at someone then you didn't
talk to them, and I despised that.

>
>>   I find many of the posts very much "in the head" so to speak and there
>> seems to be a fear of dealing with things on a feeling level as well.
>
>You are on the theme of the last few months here ... if not a permanent one
>here in psyber-l.
>
>My quiet here is full of feeling.  I fear being stupid.  I don't understand
>a lot of what has been happening with the unfolding strange Eros and Psyche
>stuff.  I find the containment of that utterly lacking.  I am conscious of
>Judith's silence and fear for her health, and until this moment have not
>found a way to even mention it ... for fear of being intrusive ... I have
>been puzzled about Charles ... though I am pleased to see that he has
>returned to cyberspace and I have heard that all are well!  Most od all i
>have felt *over-worked"  and a little resentful of this "project" in my
>life ... its demands.
>
>I perceive your silence ... as a result of your last post ... as full of
>feeling too .... fear of being ignored, perhaps a bit annoyed or angry
>about that ... I think it is a projection of something else, if i may be so
>bold.  Actually you go on to say as much ...

   Again, I believe you're right on with this. I am annoyed and a little
angry because as I stated earlier I think silence means that you're angry
at someone. I know in reality this might not be the case, but then I'm
dealing with something that's deeply entrenched. Also, I think there may be
something about feeling ignored as well. In my relationship with my father,
which wasn't good, I often felt ignored and as if my opinion didn't matter.
He also wasn't someone I could please no matter what I did. He never
directly said that he wasn't pleased he did it through implication, which I
was sensitive to.


>
>> Some
>> of this may very well be me since I conduct eleven psychodrama groups a
>> week with chronic mental health clients trying to help them deal with their
>> feelings. Whatever the answer is I also find myself very tired mentally and
>> physically by the end of the day and particularly by the end of the week,
>> so I have little energy left to contribute to philosophical discussions.
>
>Me too!  I want to cut down my work load without cutting my pay!  And use
>more time to do this psyber work.
>
>But are the discussions philosophical?  Some are more than others but I can
>usually ... to bring in some psychodrama jargon:  see the full expression
>of the roles people are in, the feeling, thinking and action component.
>
>Every expression contains all of these components.  Some may be hidden or
>ambiguous ... or implied or hinted at but life is like that!

 I think that sometimes I miss some of the feeling components that you
refer to because I rely on posture, tone, non-verbal body clues etc. to
help me understand the feelings that may be intended. In this medium I
can't (yet) see the person or persons that I'm communicating with, and this
troubles me some.

>> P.S. I found your use of the date in the year 2000 fascinating.......you
>> really do plan ahead......don't you???
>
>Not really ... a friend of mine was a little panicked by the Y2K hype and
>thought my computer might blow up or something ... that prompted the change
>of date ... just for fun.
>
>Nancy's idea that it is like a dream however makes sense to me ... I have
>just given you the surface explanation here ... ie I am not a fastidious
>planner!  Millennium does interest me a lot ... I see it as the most
>unified warm-up to a date we have ever known.  The process is just dripping
>in myth and unconscious depths.  So many images ...
>
>What lies beyond 2000?
>
>It will be a super clean plastic world where all technology works.  We will
>have special suits which keep our bodies at optimum temperatures.  Everyone
>speaks English.  There will be no third world.  Robots will serve us
>politely.  There will be no old buildings.  We have anti-gravity vehicles
>for transportation.  The year 2000 is a long time away.

    I recently said to a friend that the next 100 years will be an
extremely exciting time to be alive in, that we're only at the tip of the
iceberg so to speak with computers and technology, and I find myself
envious of the kids today, such as my four year old granddaughter, and
those not even born yet. However, who knows, after attending a Roger
Woolger Ph.D. workshop in May on past lives, I may be back.

>
>You can see I was a child in the 50s!

     I was as well!!!!
>
>Good to chat!
>
>
>
>Walter
>

    Excellent feelings about being heard. Thanks.

  Janell

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:35:53 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Janell, Walter, Nancy, and all ...

Janell, thanks for giving a bit of the breath-of-life to the list.  I
have noticed that most of the lists that I am subscribed to have gone
relatively silent these past number of weeks.  I wonder if this is more
than just localised to my preferred lists?

My first reaction is to conclude that everyone is enjoying the last of
summer before returning to universities, before returning to schools,
before shutting up cottages and cabins for the season ... I know that I
have been pre-occupied with preparing for my teaching of psychology and
computer courses.  As well, I have been fairly faithful in my
participation on the local golf course, something that I have not had
much time for during the hectic early summer.  Prosaic things really,
but things of life none-the-less ... :)

Janell, you spoke of things that have bothered you, particularly
non-response.  I honestly think that all here (and perhaps elsewhere in
cyberspace) find ourselves miffed, disappointed, sometimes hurt that our
words appear to be so casually ignored ... *appear* is the critical word
here.  I think each of us risks being transparent with each post (how
can it be otherwise no matter how much we disguise our words using the
third person and objective versus subjective vocabulary).  Non-response
ellicits feelings of being *invisible*, uncomfortable feelings that
confirm those nagging, repressed feelings that I think almost all have,
those feelings that we are not worthy.

I think I am learning to dissociate from those kind of feelings as I
watch the phenomena of recurring silence on this list and other lists,
as I see/hear others express their feelings about non-response.  Still,
I do know that there is *real* avoidance by some in responding to the
words of certain *others*.  This place is just another reflection of
face-to-face reality so isn't surprising to find that f2f reality gets
mirrored in this way as well.

Janell, you said:

> 1. The list at times strikes me as very esoteric and that bothers me.

I like esoteric, I love poetic, I cherish the messy feeling aspects.
All of this is important to me.  At times being analytical is necessary
as a means of being reflective of the process happening here, allowing
me to stand aside and see what is happening, allowing me to see where I
am caught up in an emotional rush that has more to do with complexes
than with external reality.  I love flying, the flying that
philosophical discourse offers, flying that is reflected in my dreams.
What bothers me is finding a list become just a place of polite
chit-chat, an avoidance of *depth* ... I don't like this much in f2f
reality either.

Walter, I didn't feel good about your response to Janell's above
comment.  To me it did sound elitist (though I do understand how the
nature of the list and access to the list is indeed a *limiting* fact.

> Who can really keep up with us here?  Only those who for
> some reason are already familiar with this niche ...

PSYBER-L, cyberspace, psychology??? The niche is more than these things.
This place is again, a community of sorts ... people, not a *niche*.
Finding ourselves together do we exorcise those found to be *wanting*?
Or, do we continue to exchange words and effect changes in perception of
self and other?

adding in a few thoughts
perhaps in vain
perhaps of some merit

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:49:47 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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At 10:35 AM 8/23/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Janell, Walter, Nancy, and all ...
>
>Janell, thanks for giving a bit of the breath-of-life to the list.  I
>have noticed that most of the lists that I am subscribed to have gone
>relatively silent these past number of weeks.  I wonder if this is more
>than just localised to my preferred lists?

No...my CHA*OS list is busier than ever...

>Janell, you said:
>
>> 1. The list at times strikes me as very esoteric and that bothers me.

>I like esoteric, I love poetic, I cherish the messy feeling aspects.
>All of this is important to me.  At times being analytical is necessary
>as a means of being reflective of the process happening here, allowing
>me to stand aside and see what is happening, allowing me to see where I
>am caught up in an emotional rush that has more to do with complexes
>than with external reality.  I love flying, the flying that
>philosophical discourse offers, flying that is reflected in my dreams.
>What bothers me is finding a list become just a place of polite
>chit-chat, an avoidance of *depth* ... I don't like this much in f2f
>reality either.

>Walter, I didn't feel good about your response to Janell's above
>comment.  To me it did sound elitist (though I do understand how the
>nature of the list and access to the list is indeed a *limiting* fact.

It also suggests "hidden", secret elements revealed only to
the "In" crew - or those with the elitist ability to understand the
secret information.

>> Who can really keep up with us here?  Only those who for
>> some reason are already familiar with this niche ...


>PSYBER-L, cyberspace, psychology??? The niche is more than these things.
>This place is again, a community of sorts ... people, not a *niche*.
>Finding ourselves together do we exorcise those found to be *wanting*?
>Or, do we continue to exchange words and effect changes in perception of
>self and other?

Agreed.

>adding in a few thoughts
>perhaps in vain
>perhaps of some merit

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:14:39 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      silence, sailing ants, the original name
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Janell, all,

I have several comments to your post. I will not be surprised so see that
it is your post that gets the ball rolling here again.

***

Speaking for my own silence, I, not quite totally consciously, made the
choice to both go along with the silence and take advantage of what the
silence offered to me, which is a respite from the intensity and
provocation of being a participant here. I've been very busy, but those
commitments only made my choice easier. Obviously, a respite felt good.

The 'active imagination' (collectively and sympathetically participated in
by Nancy, JoAnne, Judith, and myself; Walter more on the periphery,) of
Psyche and Eros grew out of several very intense threads, not the least of
which are the various tensions of this field of engagement, between
particular persons, and perspectives, and, more broadly, between logos and
eros, masculine and feminine, and many other implicit oppositions.

I feel, as we made some of those oppositions explicit and burning hot, one
of the forms of retreating from their flames, was to 'go up in the head' or
to cast the dialogues in hard-to-follow, (esoteric?) terms. (Hey, easy for
me!) Still, the active imagination thread, may be so creative and personal
as to ring out with a sound completely impossible to listen to, but for the
participants, it is a very important and depthful "play", or dramatization,
and also a way of slowly gathering up and learning the new connections
which fund a very profound feeling: guiding a male child, loving our inner
masculine; (which is only how I, one of the participants, wishes to put
it). Little did I know, out of the silencing of that thread...

***

Now, I have just in the past days, after a month of reading my email
(equivalent: listening,) and after a July full of a very protracted
working, not without a great deal of primitive acting out, on another list,
experienced an incredible synchronicity. It dovetails with the ending of
the silence on psyber-L.

It is simple enough: I more deeply came to recognize my own "trauma
trance". Most oddly, it was a recognition that came about from going for
more information, in other words, playing out the *head trip*,  somewhat in
anticipation of making an eloquent case (finally, unconsciously in support
of my own denial,) yet what transpired was that I went for intellectual
data and ended up hearing about something in terms which cleared some of
the stuff off the mirror, so-to-speak. (On another list, heady talk of
paranoia, fantasy, and pathologization led a member to point out the work
of psychohistorian Lloyd DeMauss; so I read a chapter from his book,
http://www.psychohistory.com/10_psychogenic.html, and in his conception of
"Social Alter" saw how an unconscious disassociation had compelled me to
enact a role in a dialogue with another list participant, with which,
having read this chapter, I suddenly became alienated from.

***

Dig this, Janell: your post, then, is perfectly timed! I note how you in a
later post express: "I know in reality this might not be the case, but then
I'm dealing with something that's deeply entrenched." That expresses my
coming to this recognition for my self since my own 'trance' works against
being *real in reality*.

What is different for me is how it was key for there to be silence and my
own unwillingness to instigate in Psyber-L, elsewhere in cyberia, so that I
could listen. Paradoxically, as an intuitive, a puer, a "headsman," it was
in a routine moment of data gathering which led me to "come about to
myself" (a nautical reference to the sailboat moving its bow through the
wind, jibing, and the boom coming clear across the boat, taking a different
tack,) and recognize the trauma trance, especially how there was this
character diassociated from me better able to navigate the
anxiety-provoking worlds of face-to-face life and cyberia.

Then, significantly, I understood how it was this inflated character HooN,
had come to represent for me this disassociation, was in fact, me, inflated
to not include the trauma trance, thus helping me to not go where I felt
Stephen was made to suffer.

Thus both the pleasures of "hoon in cyberia" but also the heavy moment of
suddenly feeling alienated from  my own creation, the weight of persona
intercepting the Shadow from life.

So, the ants whisper in my ear now: "If anyone accuses you of being self
absorbed after we've done this sorting for you, tell them 'tough!' "

***

Wow! I now reclaim my name,

thanks Janell, all,

Stephen

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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:08:59 -0400
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From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Robert, Walter and all:

  Thanks for your kind words of encouragement, they mean a lot.

   Perhaps, it is as you say that many are caught up in enjoying the last
part of summer, but then I remember it's not summer in some parts of the
world, it's a different season.

At 10:35 AM 8/23/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Janell, Walter, Nancy, and all ...
>
>Janell, thanks for giving a bit of the breath-of-life to the list.  I
>have noticed that most of the lists that I am subscribed to have gone
>relatively silent these past number of weeks.  I wonder if this is more
>than just localised to my preferred lists?
>
>My first reaction is to conclude that everyone is enjoying the last of
>summer before returning to universities, before returning to schools,
>before shutting up cottages and cabins for the season ... I know that I
>have been pre-occupied with preparing for my teaching of psychology and
>computer courses.  As well, I have been fairly faithful in my
>participation on the local golf course, something that I have not had
>much time for during the hectic early summer.  Prosaic things really,
>but things of life none-the-less ... :)
>
>Janell, you spoke of things that have bothered you, particularly
>non-response.  I honestly think that all here (and perhaps elsewhere in
>cyberspace) find ourselves miffed, disappointed, sometimes hurt that our
>words appear to be so casually ignored ... *appear* is the critical word
>here.  I think each of us risks being transparent with each post (how
>can it be otherwise no matter how much we disguise our words using the
>third person and objective versus subjective vocabulary).  Non-response
>ellicits feelings of being *invisible*, uncomfortable feelings that
>confirm those nagging, repressed feelings that I think almost all have,
>those feelings that we are not worthy.

   I agree, and I think the post from Walter and a little self analysis
helped me to see that.
>
>I think I am learning to dissociate from those kind of feelings as I
>watch the phenomena of recurring silence on this list and other lists,
>as I see/hear others express their feelings about non-response.  Still,
>I do know that there is *real* avoidance by some in responding to the
>words of certain *others*.  This place is just another reflection of
>face-to-face reality so isn't surprising to find that f2f reality gets
>mirrored in this way as well.

     Yes, I agree with you here as well, however, for me, it's a little
more difficult to disassociate from the feelings of rejection because of my
family of origin as I explained in a post earlier today. I DO keep trying
though.

>Janell, you said:
>
>> 1. The list at times strikes me as very esoteric and that bothers me.
>
>I like esoteric, I love poetic, I cherish the messy feeling aspects.
>All of this is important to me.  At times being analytical is necessary
>as a means of being reflective of the process happening here, allowing
>me to stand aside and see what is happening, allowing me to see where I
>am caught up in an emotional rush that has more to do with complexes
>than with external reality.  I love flying, the flying that
>philosophical discourse offers, flying that is reflected in my dreams.
>What bothers me is finding a list become just a place of polite
>chit-chat, an avoidance of *depth* ... I don't like this much in f2f
>reality either.

    It can be an avoidance of depth, but I'm wondering if this isn't
because some are fearful of negative feelings by others (perhaps I fall in
here as well).

>
>Walter, I didn't feel good about your response to Janell's above
>comment.  To me it did sound elitist (though I do understand how the
>nature of the list and access to the list is indeed a *limiting* fact.

    I didn't take Walter's comment as elitist, although I can certainly see
how someone might. I just like to see that everyone gets a *fair* chance to
express themselves, but I also see the *limiting* factor of the list.
>
>> Who can really keep up with us here?  Only those who for
>> some reason are already familiar with this niche ...
>
>PSYBER-L, cyberspace, psychology??? The niche is more than these things.
>This place is again, a community of sorts ... people, not a *niche*.
>Finding ourselves together do we exorcise those found to be *wanting*?
>Or, do we continue to exchange words and effect changes in perception of
>self and other?
>
>adding in a few thoughts
>perhaps in vain
>perhaps of some merit
>
>Robert
>
     Your words certainly weren't in vain with me, but had quite a bit of
merit and they helped me to understand myself in this medium and how I'm
influenced by what I bring from the *real*  world to the medium.

    Thanks.

   Janell

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:21:25 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Hi all,
I for one have enjoyed the silence...needed to focus and be focused on my
life vision which as I neared my one year anniversary of my operation
seemed to offer the window...thus when I feel the emergence I go silent to
allow *it* to hav e life...as it turns out it has been a huge time for
me...healthwise, Walter, I had a miracle healing about 3 weeks ago and
since that time have shifted ito a new sense of physical being...much
gratitude for this...

then in listening for that which makes my heart sing, acting has emerged
once again...this time as my heart going back to my
childhood...reemerging...as a fabulous jazz sax guy once said to me,
actingsinging would continue to grab me until I finally gave into it
completely...back then I was containing it within family career
pathworld...this timingtime brings me to my service to the universe and my
service to self in a balanced process, each feeding tghe other...so when I
opened to acting, cut my hair off as a symbolic act of commitment, and into
my mailbox came an audition for *Broadway Bound* :-)...Im deeply holding
intention for this to manifest...remembering that the material world is the
manifestation of probabilities of interconnections...

Meanwhile Stephen and I are readying our launch of squareONE mid September
so there is a huge amount of work to do connected with this...

So thanks Janell...

Judith out to connect with fellow actors picnicing


>At 10:35 AM 8/23/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>>Janell, Walter, Nancy, and all ...
>>
>>Janell, thanks for giving a bit of the breath-of-life to the list.  I
>>have noticed that most of the lists that I am subscribed to have gone
>>relatively silent these past number of weeks.  I wonder if this is more
>>than just localised to my preferred lists?
>
>No...my CHA*OS list is busier than ever...
>
>>Janell, you said:
>>
>>> 1. The list at times strikes me as very esoteric and that bothers me.
>
>>I like esoteric, I love poetic, I cherish the messy feeling aspects.
>>All of this is important to me.  At times being analytical is necessary
>>as a means of being reflective of the process happening here, allowing
>>me to stand aside and see what is happening, allowing me to see where I
>>am caught up in an emotional rush that has more to do with complexes
>>than with external reality.  I love flying, the flying that
>>philosophical discourse offers, flying that is reflected in my dreams.
>>What bothers me is finding a list become just a place of polite
>>chit-chat, an avoidance of *depth* ... I don't like this much in f2f
>>reality either.
>
>>Walter, I didn't feel good about your response to Janell's above
>>comment.  To me it did sound elitist (though I do understand how the
>>nature of the list and access to the list is indeed a *limiting* fact.
>
>It also suggests "hidden", secret elements revealed only to
>the "In" crew - or those with the elitist ability to understand the
>secret information.
>
>>> Who can really keep up with us here?  Only those who for
>>> some reason are already familiar with this niche ...
>
>
>>PSYBER-L, cyberspace, psychology??? The niche is more than these things.
>>This place is again, a community of sorts ... people, not a *niche*.
>>Finding ourselves together do we exorcise those found to be *wanting*?
>>Or, do we continue to exchange words and effect changes in perception of
>>self and other?
>
>Agreed.
>
>>adding in a few thoughts
>>perhaps in vain
>>perhaps of some merit
>
>Julienne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:00:37 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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>     Yes, I agree with you here as well, however, for me, it's a little
>more difficult to disassociate from the feelings of rejection because of my
>family of origin as I explained in a post earlier today. I DO keep trying
>though.

Janell, all,

More than difficult, I would sense for my self; perhaps similarly for you.

When each of us admits that we are working from a personal limitation, and
that this limitation may in fact be the ways in which we were wounded or
crippled, that changes the nature of the group, the space, the field we are
playing and engaging in, everything...(irrevocably?).

***

This has been extremely amped, at times, on Psyber-over the three-plus
years I have been a participant. It is evidenced by the very admissions of
each other, both the healthy intentions (or compassionate witnessing,)
which contained those admissions, but also by the acting out of our
unconsciousness too, the battling of our complexes, what might be heard as
the frustrating speaking of different languages, the shadowy clashes, even
to the extent of the entire group being plunged into darkness.

***

What I wonder about, as some of this stuff starts to see the light of our
Psyber-L lamp, (a lamp we each may have a hand on, and help to hold,) is
what do we do to help each other, given the general common human experience
of this limitation, or wound?

***

Here's something that struck me, Janell. It seems to me, the point is to
not disassociate from the feelings of rejection! My insight today, a huge
moment, is exactly about this matter you raise, but now in the different
light which absolutely requires me to 'come about' and see how it is that
my elaboration of a disassociation may lessen the anxiety at times but
doesn't at all allow me to deal with those 'feelings'.

So what do we do in this group where, beautifully, there is some admission
of these kinds of wounds? I'm not sure what one *should* do, but I do know
that groups wax and wane between reinforcing the play of disassociation and
doing otherwise, and that the support of our idealized, uncrippled self
usually feels better than the being stuck in the middle between the
existential rejection and the sense that freedom is available to us if we,
paradoxically, are able to embrace our whole self, wounds and all.

***

sincerely,

Stephen

...trying out my old name.

           \\\|///
         \\ ~   ~ //
          (  @ @  )
 -------oo00-(_)-00oo---------
|                             |
|     Stephen Calhoun         |
|       hoon@apk.net          |
| http://junior.apk.net/~hoon |
|                             |
 -----------------------------

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:24:36 EDT
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From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Hello Psyberians. . .

Awhile back, in Walter's welcoming message to me, he mentioned a dream I had
about getting in my car and finding my way alone.  I wrote about it when I
left Psyber-L last year.

This seems to me to dovetail with Janell's mention of her father and his
impact on her and one of the experiences I had while I was unsubscribed to
Psyber-L.  I thought I would briefly write about it.

When I was 13, my father died from a heart attack in the middle of the night.
It happened semi-unexpectedly, on a lengthy family trip to the western US.
After 3 weeks of travel, his death occured in the place he most wanted to
visit, Yellowstone Nat'l. Park.

I had not been back there in 34 years.  I suppose I expected some kind of
trauma, or that I would somehow go out of control if I went there.

Last October, I returned to Yellowstone, to experience whatever I needed to
experience.  I discovered many things, but not the trauma I expected to face.

I think, of all the things that I discovered, from that trip, was how much I
had missed by not going there for such a long time!  What a beautiful,
phenomenal place!  It was like visiting the origins of the earth to me.

I also understood that part of my father's energy was a part of that beautiful
place.  I was in awe from my understanding of this.  The depth of it was
profound for me.

So, Walter, this is one of the things I did related to my dream journey in my
car :)  My previous participation in Psyber-L helped me in my journey, in many
ways.  I value my Psyber-L  experience and sharing it with other Psyberians
deeply.

This has just been a part of my journey that I wanted to share with you.

In a message dated 98-08-23 13:50:45 EDT, Stephen writes:

<< What I wonder about, as some of this stuff starts to see the light of our
 Psyber-L lamp, (a lamp we each may have a hand on, and help to hold,) is
 what do we do to help each other, given the general common human experience
 of this limitation, or wound? >>

Just share our unique journeys, I think, Stephen.  Acknowledge and accept that
we are each on a journey, and maybe that light is a little encouragement to
each of our way.

Sheryl :)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:44:59 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <v04011704b2060502c77a@[207.54.160.209]>
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Stephen, all:

    Yes, You're correct.........It is more then difficult for me as well.


At 02:00 PM 8/23/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Janell, all,
>
>More than difficult, I would sense for my self; perhaps similarly for you.
>
>When each of us admits that we are working from a personal limitation, and
>that this limitation may in fact be the ways in which we were wounded or
>crippled, that changes the nature of the group, the space, the field we are
>playing and engaging in, everything...(irrevocably?).
>
>***
>
>This has been extremely amped, at times, on Psyber-over the three-plus
>years I have been a participant. It is evidenced by the very admissions of
>each other, both the healthy intentions (or compassionate witnessing,)
>which contained those admissions, but also by the acting out of our
>unconsciousness too, the battling of our complexes, what might be heard as
>the frustrating speaking of different languages, the shadowy clashes, even
>to the extent of the entire group being plunged into darkness.
>
>***
>
>What I wonder about, as some of this stuff starts to see the light of our
>Psyber-L lamp, (a lamp we each may have a hand on, and help to hold,) is
>what do we do to help each other, given the general common human experience
>of this limitation, or wound?
>
>***
>
>Here's something that struck me, Janell. It seems to me, the point is to
>not disassociate from the feelings of rejection! My insight today, a huge
>moment, is exactly about this matter you raise, but now in the different
>light which absolutely requires me to 'come about' and see how it is that
>my elaboration of a disassociation may lessen the anxiety at times but
>doesn't at all allow me to deal with those 'feelings'.

     I try hard to NOT disassociate from the feelings of rejection,
however, sometimes it seems like an automatic response. I think because
it's so deeply ingrained. I really need to work to avoid the
disassociation, and that takes a lot of energy.
>
>So what do we do in this group where, beautifully, there is some admission
>of these kinds of wounds? I'm not sure what one *should* do, but I do know
>that groups wax and wane between reinforcing the play of disassociation and
>doing otherwise, and that the support of our idealized, uncrippled self
>usually feels better than the being stuck in the middle between the
>existential rejection and the sense that freedom is available to us if we,
>paradoxically, are able to embrace our whole self, wounds and all.
>
>***
>
>sincerely,
>
>Stephen
>
>...trying out my old name.
>
>           \\\|///
>         \\ ~   ~ //
>          (  @ @  )
> -------oo00-(_)-00oo---------
>|                             |
>|     Stephen Calhoun         |
>|       hoon@apk.net          |
>| http://junior.apk.net/~hoon |
>|                             |
> -----------------------------
>
       I like the old name. Thanks for being vulnerable.

  Janell

    Trying not to disassociate.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:17:43 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: silence, sailing ants, the original name
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At 01:14 PM 8/23/98 -0400, Stephen wrote:

>It is simple enough: I more deeply came to recognize my own "trauma
>trance". Most oddly, it was a recognition that came about from going for
>more information, in other words, playing out the *head trip*,  somewhat in
>anticipation of making an eloquent case (finally, unconsciously in support
>of my own denial,) yet what transpired was that I went for intellectual
>data and ended up hearing about something in terms which cleared some of
>the stuff off the mirror, so-to-speak. (On another list, heady talk of
>paranoia, fantasy, and pathologization led a member to point out the work
>of psychohistorian Lloyd DeMauss; so I read a chapter from his book,
>http://www.psychohistory.com/10_psychogenic.html, and in his conception of
>"Social Alter" saw how an unconscious disassociation had compelled me to
>enact a role in a dialogue with another list participant, with which,
>having read this chapter, I suddenly became alienated from.

Hi Stephen,

Welcome to Psychohistory!

Did you notice that there is also a Psychohistory List?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:53:20 EDT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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In a message dated 98-08-23 10:33:39 EDT, you write:

<<   Nancy's intuition is right on, there is a pattern, and you are correct
 also,  this is NOT the first time that I popped up when there was a
 silence. Sometimes I wonder why I do this myself, but one thing I'm sure of
 is that I like it when people are talking. At least then there's a chance
 that we'll understand each other. With silence the chance diminishes. Also
 within my family of origin if you were angry at someone then you didn't
 talk to them, and I despised that.
  >>

Janell :)

I think my jump in post yesterday had a flavor of "huh, what's she talking
about?" so I'll try to stay a little more targeted.

I felt I played a role of popping in on Psyber-L too when there was silence.
My personal response was similar to what you wrote above... the "if you were
angry at someone you didn't talk to them" was deeply ingrained family-of-
origin issue for me, too.  (It can be an effective strategy, too, can't it?!)

But, having experienced those feelings through Psyber-L and other on-line
relationships, I think I've become far more objective, to a point where my
action of popping in to try to break a silence that seems hostile or
uncomfortable eventually amuses me.  Like, maybe my time would have been
better spent ironing a shirt!

I don't mean in any way to make light of your response and thoughts about
being ignored.  Indifference from others is a cruel thing to experience.  But,
IMO, experiencing it may also bring about some interesting psychic changes.

And, there is always someone somewhere who wants to listen.

A personal aside, Janell... I always thought that you would be a person that I
would very much like to sit down with, f2f, with a cup of coffee or tea, to
just talk :)

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:23:12 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: silence, sailing ants, the original name
In-Reply-To:  <19980824160238.FHQP133@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Welcome to Psychohistory!
>
>Did you notice that there is also a Psychohistory List?
>
>Julienne

Yeah, it was an experience, Julienne. Separate from that, I've been
interested in DeMauss for quite some time, but had not until yesterday
realized he had sought to make the foundation of his work comprehensive.

My impression is that psychohistory is toward the dour end of the spectrum.
But, true enough in its view of our existential burdens.

***

Stephen

.............................................................
squareONE: experiential toolmakers
 _o     \o_         __|    \ /     |__         o _   o/  \o/
__|-  __/    \__/o    \o    |    o/     o/__   /\   /|    |
   \    \    /  \     / \  /o\  / \     |   \  / |  / \  / \
E X C I T I N G - L E A R N I N G - T H R O U G H - P L A Y
web site: http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/sq1.html
.............................................................

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 03:59:18 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: silence, sailing ants, the original name
In-Reply-To:  <v04011702b205f1832fd5@[207.54.160.209]>
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Hello sc <hoon@APK.NET>, on Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:14:39 -0400 you wrote:

>Stephen

Welcome Stephen.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:46:42 -0400
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From:         WFSchmidt <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      what's happening???
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Janell's call woke me up! I was following Psyber-L via the archives all t=
he =

time but was to sleepy to respond. Even now I don't know why I bother to =

respond.

Fritz=

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:45:38 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: what's happening???
In-Reply-To:  <199808251647_MC2-575D-6D5@compuserve.com>
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I have this image of sleepy little furry psyber-animals emerging from
hibernation in their burrows in the psyber-forest, perhaps wondering if
somewhere nearby there's a psyber-wolf waiting to pounce from the leafy
shadows. And can anyone yet see the wood for the trees?

simon, bleary-eyed and smiling at the gathering...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:02:19 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: what's happening???
In-Reply-To:  <v03110700b208eb618ab4@[195.200.19.81]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Simon:

   Please!!!!!!   Wolves are so very misunderstood. They don't need any
more negativity.

     Janell

At 11:45 PM 8/25/98 +0100, you wrote:
>I have this image of sleepy little furry psyber-animals emerging from
>hibernation in their burrows in the psyber-forest, perhaps wondering if
>somewhere nearby there's a psyber-wolf waiting to pounce from the leafy
>shadows. And can anyone yet see the wood for the trees?
>
>simon, bleary-eyed and smiling at the gathering...
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1998 01:53:50 +0300
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Hi Sheryl,
Thanks for submitting your story. I t made  an impact  on me,  it has  =
returned to my mind  over and over again.  By  sharing  a bit of you =
personal history you became  more real, you  are no more a mere  e-mail =
name and address to me.=20
   Nowadays  I have no time to write on the list,  I like  be only a =
listener.  I'm  not   very talkative  in  the real life, either. I'm  =
happy  alone and silent. The  silence has never been  threatening to me, =
  perhaps  it comes of  my  background.  My parents were very  noisy =
when they were  angry,  and they were  very often angry.   When things =
were going badly, they  were like roaring lions,  when smoothly,  they  =
were silent like fishes  and  I  feel happy. =20

Best regards
Anita=20

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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:23:39 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: what's happening???
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980825190219.0082b140@philly.infi.net>
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>Simon:
>
>   Please!!!!!!   Wolves are so very misunderstood. They don't need any
>more negativity.
>
>     Janell


oh dear, so no more wolves in sheeps' clothing then, Janell?? what animal
would you nominate for the 'big bad wolf' role?

i suppose i was coming from a particular (modern?) cultural mythology;
anyone know what role the wolf plays in, say, native american mythology?

simon, wondering if he should wolf down any more yoghurt this evening ;)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:54:45 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: what's happening???
In-Reply-To:  <v0311070ab208f4a3b833@[195.200.13.22]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Simon:

   I'm not 100% certain but I believe wolves play a helping or guiding role
in native american culture. I've done some shamanic journeying and the wolf
has been my power animal on the journeys. I love wolves and I think that
they're very misunderstood. I just hate to see them receive negativity (not
that that's what you were doing with your pun).

  I don't know what animal I would suggest to take the role of  *the big
bad wolf*  ,  probably  humans.....they're good at it.

  I hope you wolfed down some yoghurt ...... it's healthy for you.

    Janell

At 12:23 AM 8/26/98 +0100, you wrote:
>>Simon:
>>
>>   Please!!!!!!   Wolves are so very misunderstood. They don't need any
>>more negativity.
>>
>>     Janell
>
>
>oh dear, so no more wolves in sheeps' clothing then, Janell?? what animal
>would you nominate for the 'big bad wolf' role?
>
>i suppose i was coming from a particular (modern?) cultural mythology;
>anyone know what role the wolf plays in, say, native american mythology?
>
>simon, wondering if he should wolf down any more yoghurt this evening ;)
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:02:33 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Sheryl:


At 12:53 PM 8/24/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-08-23 10:33:39 EDT, you write:
>
><<   Nancy's intuition is right on, there is a pattern, and you are correct
> also,  this is NOT the first time that I popped up when there was a
> silence. Sometimes I wonder why I do this myself, but one thing I'm sure of
> is that I like it when people are talking. At least then there's a chance
> that we'll understand each other. With silence the chance diminishes. Also
> within my family of origin if you were angry at someone then you didn't
> talk to them, and I despised that.
>  >>
>
>Janell :)
>
>I think my jump in post yesterday had a flavor of "huh, what's she talking
>about?" so I'll try to stay a little more targeted.

      I didn't feel anything poorly about your first post, the "huh, what's
she talking about" is not necessary.

>
>I felt I played a role of popping in on Psyber-L too when there was silence.
>My personal response was similar to what you wrote above... the "if you were
>angry at someone you didn't talk to them" was deeply ingrained family-of-
>origin issue for me, too.  (It can be an effective strategy, too, can't it?!)

      Yes, it can also be a very effective strategy!!!!  I agree!!!!

   >
>But, having experienced those feelings through Psyber-L and other on-line
>relationships, I think I've become far more objective, to a point where my
>action of popping in to try to break a silence that seems hostile or
>uncomfortable eventually amuses me.  Like, maybe my time would have been
>better spent ironing a shirt!

     No ironing. Please!!!! It's not for me.
>
>I don't mean in any way to make light of your response and thoughts about
>being ignored.  Indifference from others is a cruel thing to experience.
But,
>IMO, experiencing it may also bring about some interesting psychic changes.
>
>And, there is always someone somewhere who wants to listen.
>
>A personal aside, Janell... I always thought that you would be a person
that I
>would very much like to sit down with, f2f, with a cup of coffee or tea, to
>just talk :)

    I've also had a very similar feeling in the past Sheryl. I enjoy f2f
conversation over either coffee or tea.

  I had a dear friend who has since died from AIDS and he and I use to do
British tea some afternoons in center city Philadelphia. I really miss that.
>
     Thanks for the memory.

    Janell

>Sheryl
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1998 06:50:02 EDT
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From:         Larry Germansky <L069344000@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Hi:
My name is Larry and I am new to this list. Could somone explain how your list
operates and topics discussed. Thanks

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:49:12 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      About Psyber-L
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Welcome Larry,
you wrote:

> Hi:
> My name is Larry and I am new to this list. Could somone explain how your list
> operates and topics discussed. Thanks

I guess just watching for a while or jumping in will slowly give you the
some understanding of it.  What are you making of it all so far?  Did you
get a chance to look at the list description and the welcome file?  You can
find them on the Psyber-L site:

http://psybernet.co.nz/psyber-l.htm

The other way to learn about the the archives at:

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

All that might involve a bit of solitary exploration ... I have an idea
that if you asked some specific questions people hhwere will respond!

I am the originator of this list and the Psybernet project with which it is
connected ... you may want to know more about that too.



All the best


Walter





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:51:10 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Sheryl

Good to see you back again ... I love the way there is such a sense of
familiarity ... these references to posts from long ago but not forgotten!
Love it.

> So, Walter, this is one of the things I did related to my dream journey in my
> car :)  My previous participation in Psyber-L helped me in my journey, in many
> ways.  I value my Psyber-L  experience and sharing it with other Psyberians
> deeply.

I learn a lot here ... it is quite something to have my being in amongst a
group of people like this, day in day out,  for so may years now.  To write
about my experience of this world here, the people here, to notice this
virtual life ...

> This has just been a part of my journey that I wanted to share with you.

Thank you.

> In a message dated 98-08-23 13:50:45 EDT, Stephen writes:
>
> << What I wonder about, as some of this stuff starts to see the light of our
>  Psyber-L lamp, (a lamp we each may have a hand on, and help to hold,) is
>  what do we do to help each other, given the general common human experience
>  of this limitation, or wound? >>
>
> Just share our unique journeys, I think, Stephen.  Acknowledge and accept that
> we are each on a journey, and maybe that light is a little encouragement to
> each of our way.

I like what you say, and ... does that fit with what you were getting at
Stephen?

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:28:24 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Robert,

You wrote

> Walter, I didn't feel good about your response to Janell's above
> comment.  To me it did sound elitist (though I do understand how the
> nature of the list and access to the list is indeed a *limiting* fact.
>
> > Who can really keep up with us here?  Only those who for
> > some reason are already familiar with this niche ...
>
> PSYBER-L, cyberspace, psychology??? The niche is more than these things.
> This place is again, a community of sorts ... people, not a *niche*.
> Finding ourselves together do we exorcise those found to be *wanting*?
> Or, do we continue to exchange words and effect changes in perception of
> self and other?

Hmmm ... I don't know what it is i do ... but your response is sooo
familiar!  I recall a discussion with Cheryl about this about a year ago
... are you still here Cheryl?  I don't intend it as elitist at all ...
there is no niche without the people in it.  I value the containment, the
place to meet, created by purpose ... we are here as a bunch of people
because we are attracted to the purpose and "keywords" associated with this
list.  These are the things that bring us together and keep us together ...
someone who wanted to talk cars and their inner workings, no matter how
much we liked them as a person would not be in the right place ... I'm not
elitist to think that surely?

I have come to love it when i see the familiar people here ... my PCs have
been giving me endless trouble lately and I feel acutely the gaps between
access.  It is not the purpose i miss & have feelings about ... it is the
people.

Yet  the purpose that is quite narrow, by its nature it is not in the
mainstream ... I wish it was ... it would be a different world ... as the
deMaus Chapter, that Stephen, posted implies.

As for helping people into our discussions ... I think it is the
responsibility of us all.  I have tried to make links to files that help
people grasp Psybernet, and would welcome suggestions for improvement.
Here on the list i think we do a reasonable job of welcoming people ...
lets make a point of encouraging others to be here, to grasp what we are up
to.

Do my lines read differently as i say this ... I don't think we need to
exorcise people, do you think I imply that?   I'm all for assisting people
to be comfortable here ... if they want this sort of exploration.

Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:42:12 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980825200233.0082f6e0@philly.infi.net>
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Sheryl,  Janell,


Sheryl wrote:
> >I think my jump in post yesterday had a flavor of "huh, what's she talking
> >about?" so I'll try to stay a little more targeted.

Janell replied:
>       I didn't feel anything poorly about your first post, the "huh, what's
> she talking about" is not necessary.

I agree, Sheryl,  I wonder if it was a parallel process here of you taking
on board feelings about your post because there might have been some
silence in response?

> >But, having experienced those feelings through Psyber-L and other on-line
> >relationships, I think I've become far more objective, to a point where my
> >action of popping in to try to break a silence that seems hostile or
> >uncomfortable eventually amuses me.  Like, maybe my time would have been
> >better spent ironing a shirt!

Do you thing the popping up here has been useful?  I think so.  I am still
with the question of what was happening, but a lot has been revealed.  Was
there hostility ... hidden in the silence?  I think so ... or at least
grains of irritation.

The main one is the huge conflict in my life between here in psyberspace
and my rl professional work ... I spend about as much time "attending to
the psyche here in cs as i do in my other work ... that builds a tension.
Good to name it.  It was a  passive little gnaw in the silence.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:13:05 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Robert if I may jump in here with an experience of late which at least
resonnates with, Walter, your response (what kind of a sentence is that
egad)
I did't have the same response you did Janell and I may be off base here
with relating my experience...that all said

I have been immersed in healing for 2 years, new people coming into my life
with life giving assistance, new friendships developing which I cherish,
Stephen's and my work taking shape...but something is not being fed and
that something comes from "my group", the place where I "belong" from which
I have been absent...the acting community here in Cleveland...Sunday I went
to the Actor's Equity picnic and as so many people said to me "you've come
home"...it is an energetic for me, people who engage in big ways, the
enormous creativity, the collaborative, a place where I can go "flat out"
with everything I am flaws and all, and laugh and tell stories...the shared
histories of plays, hilarious happenings, gossiping, and yes this time back
people having health crisis'...these are "my people" "my group", the place
where I am the most authentic self, it is who I am in the deepest
expression of my self...the place which gives me sustanence...doesn't
negate others in my life and in fact I find it enriches my experience
outside "my group"...the other part of this is that no matter where I go
and who I am on stage with, we have an immediate connection...anyway I
sense this with you Walter and your immersion here with what you began and
yes it becomes the people not the idea...I am continually enriched by
everyone here yet it is not the same as when I'm with the birds I flock
with

Judith just cast as Kate in Broadway Bound returning home again
>Robert,
>
>You wrote
>
>> Walter, I didn't feel good about your response to Janell's above
>> comment.  To me it did sound elitist (though I do understand how the
>> nature of the list and access to the list is indeed a *limiting* fact.
>>
>> > Who can really keep up with us here?  Only those who for
>> > some reason are already familiar with this niche ...
>>
>> PSYBER-L, cyberspace, psychology??? The niche is more than these things.
>> This place is again, a community of sorts ... people, not a *niche*.
>> Finding ourselves together do we exorcise those found to be *wanting*?
>> Or, do we continue to exchange words and effect changes in perception of
>> self and other?
>
>Hmmm ... I don't know what it is i do ... but your response is sooo
>familiar!  I recall a discussion with Cheryl about this about a year ago
>... are you still here Cheryl?  I don't intend it as elitist at all ...
>there is no niche without the people in it.  I value the containment, the
>place to meet, created by purpose ... we are here as a bunch of people
>because we are attracted to the purpose and "keywords" associated with this
>list.  These are the things that bring us together and keep us together ...
>someone who wanted to talk cars and their inner workings, no matter how
>much we liked them as a person would not be in the right place ... I'm not
>elitist to think that surely?
>
>I have come to love it when i see the familiar people here ... my PCs have
>been giving me endless trouble lately and I feel acutely the gaps between
>access.  It is not the purpose i miss & have feelings about ... it is the
>people.
>
>Yet  the purpose that is quite narrow, by its nature it is not in the
>mainstream ... I wish it was ... it would be a different world ... as the
>deMaus Chapter, that Stephen, posted implies.
>
>As for helping people into our discussions ... I think it is the
>responsibility of us all.  I have tried to make links to files that help
>people grasp Psybernet, and would welcome suggestions for improvement.
>Here on the list i think we do a reasonable job of welcoming people ...
>lets make a point of encouraging others to be here, to grasp what we are up
>to.
>
>Do my lines read differently as i say this ... I don't think we need to
>exorcise people, do you think I imply that?   I'm all for assisting people
>to be comfortable here ... if they want this sort of exploration.
>
>Walter
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 23:06:43 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Judith

> Robert if I may jump in here with an experience of late which at least
> resonnates with, Walter, your response (what kind of a sentence is that
> egad)

The sort I might write, grin.

> I have been immersed in healing for 2 years, new people coming into my life
> with life giving assistance, new friendships developing which I cherish,
> Stephen's and my work taking shape...but something is not being fed and
> that something comes from "my group", the place where I "belong" from which
> I have been absent...

Closeness comes from sharing intense and purposeful activity ... and then
it may well become more important than the activity!

The activity - affinity thing is of interest to me and I am always on about
it here ... for example in this post addressed to Sheryl eighteen months
ago:

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9702&L=psyber-l&P=R4358

I have been thinking - meditating about it in other arenas such as the
process - content debate in groups, with some group facilitators that i
supervise,  and the topic of drift in threads that i have been following on
another list.  Here is what i come up with: it is a both-and thing, with
one taking the lead over the other as and when required.

At the Actor's Equity *picnick* affinity must be the order of the day, but
that is enhanced because you focus on the *activity* at another time and
place.

I think I feel some frustration when in Psyber-L I draw attention to the
*activity* and it is seen as excluding our lovely personal connections
here.  I am aware I need to own this ... as i mentioned in my response to
Robert ... it happens so often ... I think it is ah:

It ties in with my family of origin, with chaos around the activities and
heaps of depth of feeling which was out of control ... yes crazy mother
stuff again ... Julienne mentioned that it might not be my mother who was
crazy ... that for me to put it like that is to collude with the dynamics
that drove her crazy (or emotionally chaotic and unable to stick to tasks,
such as being a parent) I agree with that politically but I am accessing
the old childhood fears of the chaos ...

So can I now "grow up?"  and trust that the purposeful activity will
continue here without my interventions?  No.  Perhaps I can grow up and
continue to draw attention to the purposes of Psyber-L in a better way!

> Judith just cast as Kate in Broadway Bound returning home again

Home.  Sounds good.  Is it something about the length of time?  Or where
the heart is?  I have felt home in so many places ... but then they slide
away ... not many of them ... none really, have reunions that I want to go
to.  I feel most at home in my nuclear family setup, and the up coming
wedding will give that a boost too I think.  For all that this Psyber-L has
the feel of a home of sorts.

Judith, good to chat.



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 08:38:34 EDT
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Unscribe

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:37:43 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <35ebb0a2.11286488@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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Walter:

At 01:42 PM 8/28/98 GMT, you wrote:
>Sheryl,  Janell,
>
>
>Sheryl wrote:
>> >I think my jump in post yesterday had a flavor of "huh, what's she talking
>> >about?" so I'll try to stay a little more targeted.
>
>Janell replied:
>>       I didn't feel anything poorly about your first post, the "huh, what's
>> she talking about" is not necessary.
>
>I agree, Sheryl,  I wonder if it was a parallel process here of you taking
>on board feelings about your post because there might have been some
>silence in response?
>
>> >But, having experienced those feelings through Psyber-L and other on-line
>> >relationships, I think I've become far more objective, to a point where my
>> >action of popping in to try to break a silence that seems hostile or
>> >uncomfortable eventually amuses me.  Like, maybe my time would have been
>> >better spent ironing a shirt!
>
>Do you thing the popping up here has been useful?  I think so.  I am still
>with the question of what was happening, but a lot has been revealed.  Was
>there hostility ... hidden in the silence?  I think so ... or at least
>grains of irritation.

    I hear what you're saying,  but I'm wondering how you interpret
hostility or even grains of irritation in the silence????

>
>The main one is the huge conflict in my life between here in psyberspace
>and my rl professional work ... I spend about as much time "attending to
>the psyche here in cs as i do in my other work ... that builds a tension.
>Good to name it.  It was a  passive little gnaw in the silence.

     I do understand the conflict between the real world and this one of
psyberspace and I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only with tension because
of this conflict.
>
>
>Walter
>
          Janell

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:03:34 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Hi Psyberfolk,

  I've been busy trying to clamber back into a plummeting Stock Market and
beginning a study of the Short Short Story form.  Thought you might be
interested in first efforts in the latter, so...:

                               Halo
                                                   by Michael McFee
                                              page 40 of Micro Fiction
                                                edited by Jerome Stern


  When Jesus was born, I thought he had a caul; but with his first cry, it b=
egan to glow.
That was the halo -- always in my way, poking my breast, when he nursed, nic=
king Joseph
when he=92d bend to kiss the boy goodnight.  But if we=92d reach to take it =
off, somehow it
wasn=92t there; it was a mirage, a shadow, a golden cloud we couldn=92t quit=
e touch.
  Jesus could remove it though,  He=92d fly it like a kite, the sun on a str=
ing.  He=92d skip it
across the lake and it would always return.  He=92d even work it into his ju=
ggling routine,
pieces of fruit landing on a dazzling plate, tadah!
  Joseph was embarrassed.  Maybe the halo reminded him of what he wasn=92t. =
 So he built it
a fine cedar box and made Jesus take it off and lock it inside and bury it o=
ut back under
the fig tree and promise not to dig it up.  Joseph said he could have it bac=
k one day, when
he was a man.
  And so Jesus grew up a normal boy, and everybody forgot about the halo.
  But last night I dreamed that a couple of thieves came and dug  up the box=
.  And when
they opened it, the fig tree burst into golden fruit, hundreds of sweet halo=
s and not a snake
in sight.

Short Short techniquie analysis:

1) Because of the subject there is a particular effort to make it =91real=92=
 to the reader through
colloquialization.

2) Also =91suspension of disbelief=92, this truough =91familiar=92 treatment=
 of main characters, who
that they may be felt as =91authentic=92 and =91just like us and those we kn=
ow.=92

3) Mazimized use of punctuation and variance of sentence lengths.  (Though N=
O run-ons!
Suspect SS [short short] is SS [sure cure]).

4) Interesting use of =91and=92 repetition.  Hmmm...again =91familiarizing=92=
...And...?

5) One point of criticism:  I don=92t see how ANYONE could forget that their=
 kid was bonn
with a HALO!  Perhaps this slight imperfection serses to refocus the attenti=
on of any
reader who attn. might have wandered a fraction.

6)  Short Short is really SHORT!  My comments are longer than Story!


  All comments welcome.

  Welcome Jarell.  Good to have you aboard.

  Sheryl, I'm glad to see you 'here' again.  You've been on my conscience si=
nce you popped
a while back and I (at least) didn't respond.

  Walter, I had no idea it had been such a long lacuna until I
searched up the angels in Wings of Desire for a follow up to my Seminarian
niece and discovered that was almost 3 weeks ago!

  So 'all hail' and love to all,

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:32:56 -0500
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From:         Susan Swan <sswan@USD.EDU>
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Nancy--what an intriguing short short story.  Realizing that my post
here has nothing to do with the larger discussion, I still felt moved to
respond back to the gift which you put out here.   Today is a bad day
for me, which perhaps explains my take on the forgot-about-the-halo
element. And my take is that I think we all too often take the halo of
our children (or had our own halos taken) and bury it, and everyone does
forget about it, excpet the children who long for something they can't
quite put their finger on, including a validation for the holy parts of
one's self.  The halo is, I think, in part the connection with the
OneSpirit and with the uniqueness and mystery that underlies the Self
and as a society we have forgotten those halos which lie buried--and
sometimes get even further buried under the manure of life.  Who are
these thieves who set them free--do we have to sneak around as thieves
in the night to uncover our halos? This story reads so much as a dream
with so much to say in such a short space.  A longer approach to this
idea is the book Gwinna--a kid's story of a child whose wings are tied
back to hide them, her parents are turned to stone for doing this, and
in her journey to find herself and her wings, she finds to key to her
Self and to freeing her parents from their stony shells.

feeling buried, but with more hope now
                Susan

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:24:42 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Short short story

On Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:32:56 -0500, Susan Swan <sswan@USD.EDU> wrote:

>Nancy--what an intriguing short short story.  Realizing that my post
>here has nothing to do with the larger discussion, I still felt moved to
>respond back to the gift which you put out here.   Today is a bad day
>for me, which perhaps explains my take on the forgot-about-the-halo
>element. And my take is that I think we all too often take the halo of
>our children (or had our own halos taken) and bury it, and everyone does
>forget about it, excpet the children who long for something they can't
>quite put their finger on, including a validation for the holy parts of
>one's self.  The halo is, I think, in part the connection with the
>OneSpirit and with the uniqueness and mystery that underlies the Self
>and as a society we have forgotten those halos which lie buried--and
>sometimes get even further buried under the manure of life.  Who are
>these thieves who set them free--do we have to sneak around as thieves
>in the night to uncover our halos? This story reads so much as a dream
>with so much to say in such a short space.  A longer approach to this
>idea is the book Gwinna--a kid's story of a child whose wings are tied
>back to hide them, her parents are turned to stone for doing this, and
>in her journey to find herself and her wings, she finds to key to her
>Self and to freeing her parents from their stony shells.
>
>feeling buried, but with more hope now
>                Susan
>
Dear Susan,
  Thank you for your valuable insight in an area where I was foggy.  I
believe that you are dead center.  Moreover I feel that probably 'most'
parents and community institutions tend to forget 'our' goodness whenever
we 'nick' or irritate them.  Well said.
  I hope your day is looking up a little by now.  I wonder what sort of
'bad day' you might have been having that turned out such productive
for me?  Or is 'least said, best mended' as my neighbor used to say?
  Love, Nancy
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:26:02 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980829143743.008236d0@philly.infi.net>
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Hello "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>, on Sat, 29 Aug 1998
14:37:43 -0400 you wrote:

>Walter:
>
>At 01:42 PM 8/28/98 GMT, you wrote:
>>Sheryl,  Janell,
>>Do you thing the popping up here has been useful?  I think so.  I am still
>>with the question of what was happening, but a lot has been revealed.  Was
>>there hostility ... hidden in the silence?  I think so ... or at least
>>grains of irritation.
>
>    I hear what you're saying,  but I'm wondering how you interpret
>hostility or even grains of irritation in the silence????

The last thread I participated in, except for welcoming hoon's outing of
his birth name, Charles, was some psychodrama type thing where I was
helping a little child, Dos, learn how to swim.  Julienne apparently
thought that was stupid and expressed her wish that these imaginary people
would just go on and drown.  I decided not to waste my time with that any
further and apparently so did the others.

For some reason the web site is inaccessible right now or I'd just give the
reference, here is Julienne's post:

>To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>Subject: Re: [P] Prop Alert
>From: Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
>Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:05:53 -0400
>
>At 06:26 PM 7/17/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>>Nancy,
>>So does Dos need water wings or a rubber ducky or an inner tube...maybe a
>>snorkel for you JoAnne?
>
>I vote for leaving the swimming assists behind and drowning the
>whole lot!!!!
>
>Anyone else got the heebie jeebies around here these days?
>
>Someone please teach these people to swim, for gosh sakes.
>
>Whew!
>
>Julienne - hoping help will soon be available for these
>disadvantaged.

Can you now imagine how irritation might be implied to the resulting quiet?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1998 20:21:47 EDT
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Subject:      Re: Short short story
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UNSCRIBE

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1998 05:59:50 PDT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         David Iulian <d_iulian@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      What's happening?
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Hi to all,
My name is Iulian and I listened you for about 2 months. My language
isn't English; I'm from Romania. For this reason I have 'bad' English. I
hope you scuse my mistaches.

I'm young and I don't study psychology or something like that. In time
when I listened you I understood that you are, maybe all, in this
domain. For me is only a hobby. I was studied computers.

In my childhood I have 2 nightmares. I want to speak about one of them.
It happened frequent.
My dream:
I am in a forest. Somewhere in mountains. It is autumn. It is very cold
and I don't have many clothes on me. It is a dark and dens forest. I
don't know if is day or night, and I'm in fog. I heard something.
Something who scare me. I am fear to look in this direction, and I'm
hurry. Where? I don't know. At a moment I hear a breath and I turn on to
see. And I see in the fog a silhouette. Is a wolf. A big wolf who want
to catch me. When I stay, it stay too and look at me. It has red eyes.
Its breath is amplified and I have the impression that it is somewhere
near by me. I must run! And I run. I hear it. Nearly and nearly. I feel
the warm of its breath and I'm afraid to look at it. Finally, I arrive
to the end of the forest. There is nothing. Is the end of my world. A
big abyss. I have to choice: the wolf or the abyss. It is here. It looks
at me and I see its canines. The next observation is that it is a female
wolf and then I jump. I see the wolf somewhere up, little and little.
And I feel I'm dying.
And I wake up.

This was a nightmare for a few years. From  6 years old to 10. Something
likes that.  I'm in very small town with simple humans. We were in the
years of communism and we didn't know anything about dreams and
psychology. Anyway, I didn't tell to my parents. When I had 14 years the
father of a friend found a cub (whelp) wolf. This man was a woodman. My
friend and me help the little wolf to grow up. Time to times the wolf
disappears. And then, after 2 years it disappears permanently.

I liked very much that animal. It was something different from dogs. It
has special instincts. It doesn't like dogs.
After that I try to learn about wolfs and I read anything about them. I
know something about what means for the American Indians.
In the middle eve, in my country the wolf was synonym with robber and
assassin. The most part of us was breeders of sheeps(?). And the enemy
was the wolf.
In ancient times, here were the Thracian peoples. One of them symbol was
the wolf. They had metal heads of wolfs and they used in war. When the
air go in its mouth they heard a sound. Something likes howl of wolf.
This was a howl of fight and it seems that scared the enemies.
Now my favorite is the wolf. I like anything about them. I thing is a
part of me. The perfect animal who survive anytime. And maybe I want to
say this is my evil part. But this is a wrong word. Is my surviving
instinct. My bad things.
Janell says here that us are the real wolfs. This is my opinion too. The
wolfs are beautiful animals and useful for our ecosystem.

I hope I not bored you with my letter. I will listen to you and time to
time I will 'exercise' my English.

Iulian



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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:10:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's happening? Wolves!

Dear Iulian, That was a wonderful dream/story, almost prophetic?
  Did the reoccurring dream continue after you made friends with the real
wolf, or stop?
  Your interpretation of the wolf being a healthy instictive part of yourself
makes excellent sense to me.  I have still some 'wonders':
  I wonder what you heard/thought of Mother Russia at the time.  Was
'she'in any way a 'hungery wolf'?  Something that might come up in dreams
 since it could not be 'talked about'?
  I find myself reminded of The Never Ending Story in which a wolf who
looked and acted much like the one in your dream represented The
Nothingness.  In the book Nothingness seemed to represent the Death of
Imagination.  For me this coincides with your age at the time of dreaming,
6-10 (about the age of the book hero).  In the U.S. that is the age kids
move out of the family and more architypal age and into the 'assembly
line' imagination killing public schools.  How is it in Rumania?
  I offer all this because of the interest your story inspires in me and
for what any of it might be worth to you.
  Thank you for sharing this bit of yourself with us here.

  Sinerely, Nancy

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