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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:52:04 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998113019201582@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy wrote:

>  I hope what seems to have become something of a personal ramble makes
>some sense to you'all.

Does to me, Nancy; thanks for rambling here!

>  At the GP's today I was reading Focusing (while waiting [all too long
>it always seems to me] and the word that came up for me was 'neglect'.
>It seemed to ring true.  The odd thing was that my lst real therapist
>had suggested that I felt neglected (re: childhood) and I had made no
>connection at all.  My guess now is that this was a case of what Nathan
>Schwartz-Salant calls 'making a horse out of a cow'.  I think I was asking
>for empathy and got a thinking tone of voice, so what she said simply
>didn't register until now.

Your experience brings to mind for me the following passage from
'Focussing' (from the section 'The Man Who Couldn't Work', in chapter 2 -
p.29 in my Bantam paperback copy), the enabling and disabling qualities of
the different approaches he describes, the different words. (This passage
also makes me think of the 'sticks and stones' maxim you quoted recently,
Nancy; what a harmful phrase that is - all the more so for denying that
it's harmful!).

Anyway, the following is part of a session between Gendlin and a client
called George:

"[Gendlin:] "What is the whole unclear body-sense when you say, 'this thing
I most want to do'?"
"It feels like I have to do this writing. It dominates my life. It would be
awful if I didn't do it, even though I have this contempt feeling about it."
I said, "All right, go back to it and say, "Okay, right, it would be awful
not to do this writing.' Then ask what that whole sense of 'awful' is."
George often goes past a feeling without letting a whole felt sense form.
That is where I usually help. He knows it is important to accept every
feeling that comes, not argue with it, not challenge it with peremptory
demands that it explain itself. You don't talk back to the feeling like an
angry parent demanding that the feeling justify itself. You don't say "What
do you *mean*, such-and-such would be awful? That's nonsense! Why would it
be awful?" Instead you approach the feeling in an accepting way.
George accepts his feelings, but this is not enough. Just getting in touch
with one's feelings often brings no change, just the same feeling over and
over. One must let a larger, wider, unclear felt sense form."

>  It was also interesting to note, Judith, your last post about 'starving
>artists'.  I can't draw an exact 'bead' on that, but since the digestive
>system is apparently involved and possibly because I've lost about 20 lbs
>in the last two months...there seemed to be some sort of relationship.

and starvation can manifest itself in various ways... emotional,
intellectual, physical, financial... I was thinking also that 'meaning
starvation' is a characteristic of our present-day world...

>  I don't know much about 'energy work', Judith, but would like to hear
>more.

Me too, I value Judith's energy/body focus here.

Simon

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:13:27 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...
In-Reply-To:  <v0155010ab288cfa36950@[207.54.181.26]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Judith,

I've heard of Reike (Reiki?) but not tried it. Someone I know had a few
sessions a couple or so years ago and found it very useful; she was able to
let go of anger she'd had about the way the medical fraternity had treated
her when she was ill. My only direct encounter with body-focussed therapies
was a couple of years back, when I had a few sessions of Shen, which I
think is similar to Reike but is much less well known. I was prepared for
it just to produce a 'feelgood' effect, but there was much more to it than
that. I had some amazing spontaneous experiences (including one which was
interpreted to me as visualising the root chakra), and it gave me a
definite sense of the connection between 'body feelings' and emotions and
well-being, and the circulation of energies in the body.

>>  Thanks for redirecting my thoughts to Focusing, Simon.
>
>Me too, Simon, I remembered the reason I related to the book when I found
>it because I had healed myself through my body responses...remembering when
>I would find and reconfigure a block I would feel my cells
>recalculate...that was the feedback system I used...

An amazing description, Judith! Cells recalculating... the deep mathematics
of life??

Simon

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 22:31:44 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes Simon it is Reik(i)...I've not heard of Shen...Eastern?

>Judith,
>
>I've heard of Reike (Reiki?) but not tried it. Someone I know had a few
>sessions a couple or so years ago and found it very useful; she was able to
>let go of anger she'd had about the way the medical fraternity had treated
>her when she was ill. My only direct encounter with body-focussed therapies
>was a couple of years back, when I had a few sessions of Shen, which I
>think is similar to Reike but is much less well known. I was prepared for
>it just to produce a 'feelgood' effect, but there was much more to it than
>that. I had some amazing spontaneous experiences (including one which was
>interpreted to me as visualising the root chakra), and it gave me a
>definite sense of the connection between 'body feelings' and emotions and
>well-being, and the circulation of energies in the body.
>
>>>  Thanks for redirecting my thoughts to Focusing, Simon.
>>
>>Me too, Simon, I remembered the reason I related to the book when I found
>>it because I had healed myself through my body responses...remembering when
>>I would find and reconfigure a block I would feel my cells
>>recalculate...that was the feedback system I used...
>
>An amazing description, Judith! Cells recalculating... the deep mathematics
>of life??
I have math in my DNA thru my father...remember taking algebra in college
and getting a Determinate assigned to work over the holiday...took hours-no
calculators back then- and it came out to zero...that experience activated
a process deep within me and I know looking back that this is what I used
to heal myself...plus the place I "go" which I don't actually see has been
described to me as the plac ethe knowledge of the universe exists which
turns out to be equations...I've long thot that we each have a part of the
universe equation which we work thru our living...the constants given to us
as we come in and the variables created through our choices...hard to
describe how I've lived it...hummm...

>
>Simon
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:13:29 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <Walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      SmartNetTalk

All,

I am in a novel situation, here at the Christchurch SmartNet Expo.

http://www.smartnet.co.nz

My good friend and recent best man is launching his new enterprise

http://www.groupsense.co.nz

and I am taking a turn here at the stand during a quiet moment and thought I'd catch up on Psyber-L...

GroupSenss business is to create good online discussion for organizations, and people who want the benefit fropm online interation.  One of his first customers is SmartNet, for them he has created SmartNetTalk

http://www.smartnet.co.nz/talk.htm

I have been quite invloved in the talk and have hops of working more with Dan, hosting discussions and training hosts.


Walter
from another machine at another place via the web

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:24:19 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a03b289a595d9b3@[195.200.13.126]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon, Judith,

> I've heard of Reike (Reiki?) but not tried it. Someone I know had a few
> sessions a couple or so years ago and found it very useful; she was able to
> let go of anger she'd had about the way the medical fraternity had treated
> her when she was ill.

I know very little about it other than that a practitioner of it told me she
would fix my camera with it.  She moved her hands around it but it did not fix
the broken shutter.

I am a major skeptic of that sort of thing on *inanimate* objects.

A while back, for a joke, I recommended it for loosening a lid that was
difficult to unscrew from a jar.  Rebecca held her hands lovingly around the lid
a few inches away, and sent kind thoughts.  Then removed the lid with ease!

Who knows!


Walter





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:22:12 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...

On Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:52:04 +0000, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM> wrote:

>Nancy wrote:
>
>>  I hope what seems to have become something of a personal ramble makes
>>some sense to you'all.
>
>Does to me, Nancy; thanks for rambling here!
>
N: What a comfort you are, Simon!

>>  At the GP's today I was reading Focusing (while waiting [all too long
>>it always seems to me] and the word that came up for me was 'neglect'.
>>It seemed to ring true.  The odd thing was that my lst real therapist
>>had suggested that I felt neglected (re: childhood) and I had made no
>>connection at all.  My guess now is that this was a case of what Nathan
>>Schwartz-Salant calls 'making a horse out of a cow'.  I think I was asking
>>for empathy and got a thinking tone of voice, so what she said simply
>>didn't register until now.
>
>Your experience brings to mind for me the following passage from
>'Focussing' (from the section 'The Man Who Couldn't Work', in chapter 2 -
>p.29 in my Bantam paperback copy), the enabling and disabling qualities of
>the different approaches he describes, the different words. (This passage
>also makes me think of the 'sticks and stones' maxim you quoted recently,
>Nancy; what a harmful phrase that is - all the more so for denying that
>it's harmful!).

N: At the time many years ago that therapist suggested I'd experience
'neglect' and I denied it.  Now I think this sort of treatment was where
the neglect lay.  I feel is now as the early lack of a loving, motherly
attention which found joy in my existence.  I dare say I'm hardly alone.
>
>Anyway, the following is part of a session between Gendlin and a client
>called George:
>
>"[Gendlin:] "What is the whole unclear body-sense when you say, 'this thing
>I most want to do'?"
>"It feels like I have to do this writing. It dominates my life. It would be
>awful if I didn't do it, even though I have this contempt feeling about it."
>I said, "All right, go back to it and say, "Okay, right, it would be awful
>not to do this writing.' Then ask what that whole sense of 'awful' is."
>George often goes past a feeling without letting a whole felt sense form.
>That is where I usually help. He knows it is important to accept every
>feeling that comes, not argue with it, not challenge it with peremptory
>demands that it explain itself. You don't talk back to the feeling like an
>angry parent demanding that the feeling justify itself. You don't say "What
>do you *mean*, such-and-such would be awful? That's nonsense! Why would it
>be awful?" Instead you approach the feeling in an accepting way.
>George accepts his feelings, but this is not enough. Just getting in touch
>with one's feelings often brings no change, just the same feeling over and
>over. One must let a larger, wider, unclear felt sense form."

N: Thanks for quoting it for the rest of the list who may not have copies.
>
>>  It was also interesting to note, Judith, your last post about 'starving
>>artists'.  I can't draw an exact 'bead' on that, but since the digestive
>>system is apparently involved and possibly because I've lost about 20 lbs
>>in the last two months...there seemed to be some sort of relationship.
>
>and starvation can manifest itself in various ways... emotional,
>intellectual, physical, financial... I was thinking also that 'meaning
>starvation' is a characteristic of our present-day world...

N: I asked my brother once what my mother died of.  And he said 'starvation'.
My father, too.  He seemed to be saying we all do, did, suffer from.
>
>>  I don't know much about 'energy work', Judith, but would like to hear
>>more.
>
>Me too, I value Judith's energy/body focus here.
>
>Simon
>
N: Judith, I answered your post yesterday, was cut off, saved my response,
and then was able to retrieve only the notation of it.  "Have been through
the computer wars since and only just got back  on line.  Better hurry
before this goes the same way.
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 08:43:16 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey Walter,
I use *it* for my car:)...somewhere there is research about women and their
cars...I know lately my gears have locked and I can't get out of
reverse...certainly a metaphor for what has been going on in one aspect of
my life...guess one person's *reality* is another's *illusion*...for me it
doesn't matter if it is *real* or not only that it works for me...very
pragmatic about stuff like this...
I certainly respect your skepticism...


>Simon, Judith,
>
>> I've heard of Reike (Reiki?) but not tried it. Someone I know had a few
>> sessions a couple or so years ago and found it very useful; she was able to
>> let go of anger she'd had about the way the medical fraternity had treated
>> her when she was ill.
>
>I know very little about it other than that a practitioner of it told me she
>would fix my camera with it.  She moved her hands around it but it did not fix
>the broken shutter.

>
>I am a major skeptic of that sort of thing on *inanimate* objects.
>
>A while back, for a joke, I recommended it for loosening a lid that was
>difficult to unscrew from a jar.  Rebecca held her hands lovingly around
>the lid
>a few inches away, and sent kind thoughts.  Then removed the lid with ease!
>
>Who knows!
Knowing in the case of what is unseen is *known* through experience...for
instance I cannot get anyone to *know* that the healing treatments I
receive work, but primary is how I construct my reality and in my reality
the unseen is a given...the test is to do the experiment over and over and
see what happens...in the 70's when I would teach stuff we would do the
*create a parking space* exercise...a few would try it and some would
manifest a space and some not...when analyzing who did and who didn't one
of the elements was that those who did wanted the parking space in the
moment (rain, time) those who didn't were testing to see if it *really* was
true and not creating a space confirmed their reality...we've come a
loooooong way since those days

well, maybe...my teacher Roselyn Breyere talks about participating in the
Menninger Clinic studies on healing...I think I've written about it before
but a quick reminder here...they put a number of healers in copper rooms,
one to a room...take patients and *hide* them in rooms...and the healers
are to find the patients diagnos them as a first step...Roselyn laughs when
she tells the story..."so we all meet in the hall and go find the patients
and work together"...definitely an example of how the unseen is viewed...

Well, I'm ready for my cappacino and I am still in the second stage of
enlightment according to the Yogi's...the third stage is where I open my
hand and the cappacino is there...something to look forward to on those
cold wintry days, eh?
Best to all,
Judith
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 07:49:57 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Energy Systems
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith, Nancy, Simon, Walter, all, all, all

How intersesting this most recent discussion of energy - Judith your
statement about mathematics and life providing the constants and the
situations of life being the variables was wonderful.

I have a friend who trained and was certified as a qiqong practioner and
teacher in China and I had the opportunity to meet and work with her
teacher a little. My teeny little experience made me shake my head and
wonder about all the amazing things that are possible and that we in the
West know little or nothing about. The first day I was with him he had us
try a few strength and endurances exercises - I found that my body was
very weak indeed and by the end of 5-10 minutes I was sweating and shaky
and pale. After doing some qiqong that day and again that evening we went
back the next day and I did the same exercises with ease and a sense of
well being. I was very enthusiastic for awhile and went so far as to
design an experiemnt for people with AIDS which has affected the eye - I
even interested one of the MDs I worked with to participate. Here was the
basic idea:

Some people with AIDS develop a condition known as CMV retinitis which is
a herpes infection in the fluid of the eye. Untreated, it results in
blindness. Unfortunately, there are only a few drug choices all of which
slow down but don't eliminate the infection. Eventually most go blind if
they don't die first. During the course of the disease many experience a
retinal detachment from the infection - the retina is the thin layer of
tissue at the back of the eye which converts light waves into electrical
impulses which go to the brain and voila - we see. Many also need to have
the fluid (vitreous) of the eye removed and replaced in order to better
hold the detached retina back in place because a detached retina also
results in blindness. It's an imperfect solution but does provide some
sight. The vitreous which is removed simply gets thrown out. I thought
why not, with the patient's permission, save the vitreous and give it to
a qiqong practioner to "work" with. This fluid is loaded with active CMV.
It could be tested for the postive presence of CMV before and after the
"work". This is only work on diseased cells and this kind of work with
qiqong is currently going on in some large medical centers in the US -
although not with CMV. It was the qiqong teachers from China who said
"No" however. I talked to one who said, in essence, this kind of work on
cells has already been done and shown to be effective in China - it's in
all the Chinese medical journals and we're not interested in repeating it
here. You can look it up. End of conversation" I dropped it.

I do know one other person who is working in the same vein and has gotten
some qiqong teachers/practioners to participate. His interest and
subsequent comes from personal experience - having a father who developed
supposedly terminal leukemia - being married to a Chinese physician -
being a molecular biologisy himself - having the wife MD suggest they
take the father to China to learn qiqong - doing that - seven years later
the father is alive and well as long as he does his qiqong every day. Now
the son (my friend) is doing scientific qiqong research in a medical
research institute. I am a believer in its efficacy if practiced
regularly.

I have to get ready to go to work - I'm working in a cardiology clinic
today - just scut work but still I learn everyday - I got a call
yesterday from a woman who heads a clinical trials program here and
wanted to see if I was interested in a research assistant job in the
oncology department - I am - it's only two days a week - probably just
paper pushing but it'll keep me interested and learning.

All the best,

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:13:07 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl and all,

>Judith, Nancy, Simon, Walter, all, all, all
>
>How intersesting this most recent discussion of energy - Judith your
>statement about mathematics and life providing the constants and the
>situations of life being the variables was wonderful.
>
>I have a friend who trained and was certified as a qiqong practioner and
>teacher in China and I had the opportunity to meet and work with her
>teacher a little. My teeny little experience made me shake my head and
>wonder about all the amazing things that are possible and that we in the
>West know little or nothing about. The first day I was with him he had us
>try a few strength and endurances exercises - I found that my body was
>very weak indeed and by the end of 5-10 minutes I was sweating and shaky
>and pale. After doing some qiqong that day and again that evening we went
>back the next day and I did the same exercises with ease and a sense of
>well being. I was very enthusiastic for awhile and went so far as to
>design an experiemnt for people with AIDS which has affected the eye - I
>even interested one of the MDs I worked with to participate. Here was the
>basic idea:
>
>Some people with AIDS develop a condition known as CMV retinitis which is
>a herpes infection in the fluid of the eye. Untreated, it results in
>blindness. Unfortunately, there are only a few drug choices all of which
>slow down but don't eliminate the infection. Eventually most go blind if
>they don't die first. During the course of the disease many experience a
>retinal detachment from the infection - the retina is the thin layer of
>tissue at the back of the eye which converts light waves into electrical
>impulses which go to the brain and voila - we see. Many also need to have
>the fluid (vitreous) of the eye removed and replaced in order to better
>hold the detached retina back in place because a detached retina also
>results in blindness. It's an imperfect solution but does provide some
>sight. The vitreous which is removed simply gets thrown out. I thought
>why not, with the patient's permission, save the vitreous and give it to
>a qiqong practioner to "work" with. This fluid is loaded with active CMV.
>It could be tested for the postive presence of CMV before and after the
>"work". This is only work on diseased cells and this kind of work with
>qiqong is currently going on in some large medical centers in the US -
>although not with CMV. It was the qiqong teachers from China who said
>"No" however. I talked to one who said, in essence, this kind of work on
>cells has already been done and shown to be effective in China - it's in
>all the Chinese medical journals and we're not interested in repeating it
>here. You can look it up. End of conversation" I dropped it.

This really made me chuckle..."you can look it up"...however, you *were*
acknowledged for your insight...in Zen the master ignores the student until
the student asks the correct question...in essence you asked the right
question...and were given an answer...did you ever look it up?
>
>I do know one other person who is working in the same vein and has gotten
>some qiqong teachers/practioners to participate. His interest and
>subsequent comes from personal experience - having a father who developed
>supposedly terminal leukemia - being married to a Chinese physician -
>being a molecular biologisy himself - having the wife MD suggest they
>take the father to China to learn qiqong - doing that - seven years later
>the father is alive and well as long as he does his qiqong every day. Now
>the son (my friend) is doing scientific qiqong research in a medical
>research institute. I am a believer in its efficacy if practiced
>regularly.

I have never been able to do a practice on a regular basis...can't even
take a daily vitamin...flaw of character I surmise...of course I
rationalize that I am a creative and am in continuous creativity...Stephen
would call that (correctly) an inflation...
>
>I have to get ready to go to work - I'm working in a cardiology clinic
>today - just scut work but still I learn everyday - I got a call
>yesterday from a woman who heads a clinical trials program here and
>wanted to see if I was interested in a research assistant job in the
>oncology department - I am - it's only two days a week - probably just
>paper pushing but it'll keep me interested and learning.

The move is moving within you...
Blessings,
Judith
>
>All the best,
>
>Cheryl
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:23:54 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Energy Systems
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,

Hmmm...in Zen...they...

well, there's a big generalization if I ever heard one....

All the best,
wincing and grinning and shaking her head,

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 3 Dec 1998 08:44:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems

Dear Cheryl,
  I wasn't quite sure what as going on with you at the moment
when you were turned away by the Chinese expert.  My guess
is that you felt a lot of pain and disappointment that the
project you'd worked
so hard on met such a precipitious end.
  Is this intuition on target, or have I missed the point?

  Nancy
  Trying to understand a process

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Dec 1998 18:01:09 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...
In-Reply-To:  <v01550110b28a1cb7e5e4@[207.54.181.26]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Judith wrote:
>Yes Simon it is Reik(i)...I've not heard of Shen...Eastern?

It sounds like it should be, doesn't it. In fact it was developed by
someone called Richard Pavek in the late seventies while he was
investigating the body's biofield. The name SHEN is an acronym for Specific
Healing Energy Nexus. Apparently there's a book written by Pavek called
'Handbook of SHEN' (ISBN 0-9618646-0-5), but otherwise information is
short. The bumpf I was sent when I originally enquired about SHEN didn't
say much of anything about its history or theory, mainly about its purpose
and applications, though the information about Phase A of the
practitioner's training course mentions Principles of Biofield Physics,
Qi-Flow Patterns of the Body, Emotion and the Biofield, Bodily Reactions to
Emotion, and Emotional Somatology - which maybe gives some clues. The
leaflet talks about painful emotions becoming locked in the body by
"involuntary contractility, a protective physiological process that is not
consciously reversible.", and refers to SHEN as a "biofield intervention"
to unlock the effects of this contractility.

In a SHEN session you lie on your back fully clothed on a padded table
while the therapist holds his or her hands at various locations just above
your body, sometimes for extended periods. It's kind of like a slow-motion
ballet of hands and energy flows. In my experience, gradually all these
strange sensations began manifesting themselves, sometimes uncomfortable,
even disquieting, but not painful. I think it was a useful experience at
the time, if only to give me a new sense of the body's significance, but I
wasn't able to draw any firm conclusions about SHEN's effectiveness, only
that it had a (seemingly beneficial) effect that couldn't be explained away
as a 'feelgood' reaction.


There isn't much information about SHEN online that I could find (though
more than last time I looked), but here's a few links for anyone who might
be interested:

East Bay SHEN Centre: http://www.shentherapy.com/

Forres Healthworks: http://www.thisis.co.uk/healthworks/shen.htm

Post Trauma Treatment Associates - SHEN: http://www.post-trauma.com/shen.html

Sally's SHEN Therapy (a practictioner's page):
http://www.net-talent.com/shen.htm






Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Dec 1998 15:16:30 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Therapy and 'food'

Hi Simon (and anyone else who may be interested),

  Do you remember many months ago when I wrote about Nathan Schwartz-Salant
speaking of 'words' as 'food' and it didn't turn up in the books you had
by him?  I've had a feeling ever since that I must have heard it on a tape.
Well, today I ran across it.  It was on the first tape of a 4 tape set
titled, "Mythology and Clinical Practice (c) 1991.

  He is saying that when a therapist says anything to a client a part of
that client (about 2 months old) received the words as food (milk specifically)
in this case) and that often - if the words oare not first passed through
the heart - it is 'bad food' (harking back to Melanie Klein's 'good breast'
'bad breast' metaphor, I guess)

   Like so many transactions in therapy, I feel this applies in ordinary
interpersonal encounters (all though many of us don't analis daily
encounters, but rather think, 'hmmm...I didn't much like the sound of
that' or 'she must be having a bad day' or, if it's a common occurence,
'Humph!  Never did like him much.')  I guess I'm saying that we continue
to carry all the selves we have been with us and probably the preverbal
ones are the hardest to mediate for as adults.

Nancy
Glad to have one mystery cleared up.

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:44:03 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Therapy and 'food'
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998120515172464@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy

>   He is saying that when a therapist says anything to a client a part of
> that client (about 2 months old) received the words as food (milk specifically)
> in this case) and that often - if the words oare not first passed through
> the heart - it is 'bad food' (harking back to Melanie Klein's 'good breast'
> 'bad breast' metaphor, I guess)

I like the metaphor.  I think of my clients a being all the ages at once, and
associate that with roles.  I imagine the words of the therapist (and all the
time as you say Nancy in all interaction) will impact in different ways on
different ages / roles.  If someone has had a difficulty around breast feeding
then the therapy can repair that.  I recall the popularity of reparenting in
some TA schools where they advocated regression & bottle feeding etc.  I now
think that words are better food, and words make wombs and cots and rooms and
*safe places*  words are bricks as well as food.

Passing the words through the heart is a wonderful way of thinking about it.  I
have thought of it as tone of voice, but that is not really it, passing them
through the heart!  I like it.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:40:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks Simon...I'll take a look

Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 5 Dec 1998 22:46:46 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Therapy and 'food'
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy, walter, all,
fascinating...I'll have to think about this...thanks

>Nancy
>
>>   He is saying that when a therapist says anything to a client a part of
>> that client (about 2 months old) received the words as food (milk
>>specifically)
>> in this case) and that often - if the words oare not first passed through
>> the heart - it is 'bad food' (harking back to Melanie Klein's 'good breast'
>> 'bad breast' metaphor, I guess)
>
W:>I like the metaphor.  I think of my clients a being all the ages at once, and
>associate that with roles.  I imagine the words of the therapist (and all the
>time as you say Nancy in all interaction) will impact in different ways on
>different ages / roles.

Walter,in your model are you thinking of yourself also as being all the
ages at once...I don't think I understand...thanks

Judith


  If someone has had a difficulty around breast feeding
>then the therapy can repair that.  I recall the popularity of reparenting in
>some TA schools where they advocated regression & bottle feeding etc.  I now
>think that words are better food, and words make wombs and cots and rooms and
>*safe places*  words are bricks as well as food.
>
>Passing the words through the heart is a wonderful way of thinking about it.  I
>have thought of it as tone of voice, but that is not really it, passing them
>through the heart!  I like it.
>
>
>Walter
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:19:32 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet.co.nz
Subject:      Re: Therapy and 'food'
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,

> Walter,in your model are you thinking of yourself also as being all the
> ages at once...I don't think I understand...thanks

In a way yes.

That is the countertransferential aspect.  As I am there i am aware how
the work impacts on me, as a parent, as a child, as a friend...
hopefully I can stay in role and use those personal feelings for the
benefit of the client... but also for "little Walter" should he need
something or be learning something.  I am aware that what happens in my
room at times might be of great interest to the child in me.  He may
need the very things the client is getting from the work... in that case
I also get it.  That is the self care part of the work and not public,
or only public if my self disclosure would benefit the client. I don't
leave myself out of it... unless I am unconscious of something... that
is the time for supervision or my own therapy.

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:38:33 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Web Page
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998112110160432@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

I am replying to:

  Re: Psyber-L Files and Web Page
  Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:15:43 -0500

You wrote:

>  I've taken a look at the new introductory material.  It was a little
>  hasty because of problems I'm having with being disconnected.
>  Generally it looked ok to me with one reservation.  I question the
>  contextual use of the word 'media' in the Purpose statement.  To me it
> read as if you meant our focus was on cyberspace itself.  Somehow 'psyche'
> doesn't seem like a media to me.

This is how it reads, at the moment,

|  The purpose of Psyber-L is to experientially learn about the
|  psyche in cyberspace. All discussion contributes to the group
|  life and assists our consciousness of the media, hence a wide
|  range of topics are suitable. It is the intention that thoughtful
|  discussion about the process is part of the discussion. The
|  comment and learning and is not kept separate from the
|  discussions, and forms part of it.

How does it read with these changes, which i prefer:

''The purpose of Psyber-L is to learn experientially about the
psyche in cyberspace.  As all online discussion contributes to
the unfolding of the psyche a wide range of topics is suitable.
Participants are encouraged to make posts about the process and
how the psyche manifests and can be nurtured cyberspace. The
comment and learning is not kept separate from the discussions.''

Nancy, you are right, our focus is rightly on the psyche.  I think there is much
to learn about how it is manifest in this medium, and learning about that is
important too.

I have just read an interesting article about "distance learning" and its
downside.

http://commons.somewhere.com/rre/1998/RRE.Digital.Diploma.Mill.html

Sadly I think the critics are on target, IMO because we have not learnt how to
use the medium, and because the technology is still very poorly designed.  I am
beginning to think of myself as learning to be an "online interaction
specialist", developing the knowledge of how to enable people to warm-up to the
full use of this medium for interaction, which is the basis of relationships,
learning and psyche!

I don't mean that the media need to do more fancy things, rather it must do
what it does more simply, elegantly, and uniformly.  That might take years.  It
might also take the breakdown of the monopolies and the rise of the open source
movement and the development of a new profession.  Who knows.

Whatever it is, I think it is possible to go deeply into our being here, which
makes me think that learning and our soul life could be enhanced via digital
media.  All the time the possibility of the "bad breast" is just as likely and
mostly what we get. How can we do it well?

>   Oh, and one other thing: I find the light black print difficult to read
> against the yellow-orange background.  This is partly because of my particular
> vision problems, but just thought I'd make mention.

Ok,
I have made  the text on the page larger...

http://psybernet.co.nz/psyber-l.htm

how is that?  Or is it the *colour* that is the problem?

I have also been making sure things work in Netscape.

Walter
beavering away on the web pages

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:00:04 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Therapy and 'food'
In-Reply-To:  <366ab3f4.48425542@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,

>I think of my clients a being all the ages at once, and
>associate that with roles.  I imagine the words of the therapist (and all the
>time as you say Nancy in all interaction) will impact in different ways on
>different ages / roles.

This seems a good and wise way to proceed, Walter. Would you say it
reflects a general understanding in psychotherapy, or is it more your
personal approach?

>words make wombs and cots and rooms and
>*safe places*

And sticks and stones.

>words are bricks as well as food.

Nicely put, Walter. This brings to mind for me those old horror movies, the
dreadful family secret where someone is locked away in the attic, or
bricked up behind a wall and left to starve. I suppose that's where those
films get their impact - they're metaphors for psychological processes
which render people invisible.

>Passing the words through the heart is a wonderful way of thinking about
>it.  I
>have thought of it as tone of voice, but that is not really it, passing them
>through the heart!  I like it.

Or maybe spoken words have a more resonant timbre when they're passed
through the heart.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:45:06 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Therapy and 'food'
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998120515172464@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,

>  Do you remember many months ago when I wrote about Nathan Schwartz-Salant
>speaking of 'words' as 'food' and it didn't turn up in the books you had
>by him?  I've had a feeling ever since that I must have heard it on a tape.
>Well, today I ran across it.  It was on the first tape of a 4 tape set
>titled, "Mythology and Clinical Practice (c) 1991.

Yes! I remember, Nancy. I'm glad you've tracked it down. As you say, a
mystery cleared up - but also it seems timely.

>  He is saying that when a therapist says anything to a client a part of
>that client (about 2 months old) received the words as food (milk
>specifically)
>in this case) and that often - if the words oare not first passed through
>the heart - it is 'bad food' (harking back to Melanie Klein's 'good breast'
>'bad breast' metaphor, I guess)

Ah, I see. Originally I had supposed it was in the context of writing -
perhaps, writing as an act of nourishing (self or other).

I love the notion of passing words through the heart... an act of
intelligence, perhaps? (not just meaning the mind).

>I guess I'm saying that we continue
>to carry all the selves we have been with us and probably the preverbal
>ones are the hardest to mediate for as adults.

Selves? Or layerings, accretions, sediment? Like geological strata of the
mind and body! Sometimes we have to dig deep to find the mineral wealth...

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 15:30:15 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Web Page
In-Reply-To:  <366a7853.5472064@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, all,

>I have just read an interesting article about "distance learning" and its
>downside.
>
>http://commons.somewhere.com/rre/1998/RRE.Digital.Diploma.Mill.html
>
>Sadly I think the critics are on target, IMO because we have not learnt how to
>use the medium, and because the technology is still very poorly designed.

Is that the Part III article, Walter? About the fightback of university
staff and students against the imposition of distance learning? I read that
a couple or so days ago and for the most part found it heartening. Anything
that deflates the arrogance of corporate technologists who think they have
a right to define people's future is alright by me. The issue is really one
of a politically-inspired top-down imposition of poorly conceived ideas and
technology, and about whether technology comes before people or vice versa.
There were a lot of political issues around weakening tenure and grabbing
IP rights to online course materials, and locking universities into
technology deals ('Microsoft University', as one bunch of students renamed
their place of learning).

Distance learning in itself does already work, though. It's been a valued
part of further education in the UK for many years through the Open
University, which has become something of an institution in its own right.
But the OU exists *alongside* the traditional university education system,
as a way for people of all ages and backgrounds to challenge and better
themselves, whether for personal pleasure and challenge or for career
change and betterment. My brother and his wife are about to start OU
courses in the New Year for the former reason.

OU courses have traditionally been conducted using a mix of paper
coursework and videos, with the option of summer schools where course
participants can meet up. Nowadays there's a web site, of course, and last
I knew they also had a First Class bulletin board system, though I'm not
sure how much this translates into 'online learning'.

>I am beginning to think of myself as learning to be an "online interaction
>specialist", developing the knowledge of how to enable people to warm-up
>to the
>full use of this medium for interaction, which is the basis of relationships,
>learning and psyche!

An interesting job title! I wonder if there were ever telephone interaction
specialists ;)

>I don't mean that the media need to do more fancy things, rather it must do
>what it does more simply, elegantly, and uniformly.  That might take
>years.  It
>might also take the breakdown of the monopolies and the rise of the open
>source
>movement and the development of a new profession.  Who knows.

I think in itself the technology needs to be both simple and flexible
enough to shape itself around people, rather than bend people out of shape.
Also, as you imply, Walter, there are political and social issues to do
with who shapes the technology and the medium - is it top-down imposition
or bottom-up consensus? More and more this 'top-down or bottom-up' question
seems to be at the heart of what sort of future humanity wants for itself.

Re monopolies: the AOL-Sun takeover of Netscape, and the general wave of
mega-mergers taking place in the corporate world at the moment, suggests
that the breakdown of monopolies is not on the cards (despite the
DOJ/Microsoft case, which will probably only slap Microsoft on the hands,
anyway). And the open source movement may yet fall foul of corporate
manipulation (anyone read the Halloween documents?). It remains to be seen
what happens to Netscape's open source experiment with its browser now that
AOL is holding the reins (in fact, it remains to be seen what happens to
the browser, full stop).

>Whatever it is, I think it is possible to go deeply into our being here, which
>makes me think that learning and our soul life could be enhanced via digital
>media.  All the time the possibility of the "bad breast" is just as likely and
>mostly what we get. How can we do it well?

And yet, I always find myself saying "And yet..." !! But perhaps the
personal questioning of the medium's value is an important element of its
value...

What is this good/bad breast distinction? Something to do with feeding or
withholding?

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:35:23 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      food, mutual funds, learning
In-Reply-To:  <366a7853.5472064@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Walter picthes a URL,

>I have just read an interesting article about "distance learning" and its
>downside.
>
>http://commons.somewhere.com/rre/1998/RRE.Digital.Diploma.Mill.html

I'd like to drop a quote here from this article:

>the faculty wrote the governor. [snip] "Education is
>an intersubjective and social process, involving hands-on activity,
>spontaneity, and the communal experience of sharing in the learning
>enterprise. . . . We urge you to support learning as a human and
>social practice, an enrichment of soul and mind, the entitlement of
>all citizens in a democracy, and not a profit-making commodity to be
>offered on the cheapest terms to the highest bidder."

It's interesting to note that, at least in the United States, that learning
is hardly an entitlement of all citizens. In fact, our public education
system, generally, is in serious crisis, while our university education
system gears its most optimal resources and provides the highest level of
education to the "highest bidders" or, rather, those who by virtue of the
rules of our market economy are able to afford to send their "better
educated" children to those same elite universities.

Even more ironic to me is this statement: "Intellectual property issues are
at the center of faculty concerns." In other words, who owns the
instructional materials? Information may want to be free, but, evidently,
learning is not to be. Of course it is not in the interests for either
faculty, universities, or the various consortiums which unite the
pedagogic, and communications and hardware and software to create virtual
courseware, to make the property issue moot. There's big money involved,
whether in the old style tenure-research-'fat and happy' system or
competing variations of the high tech, entrepreneurial denominative systems.

***

Meanwhile, on the heels of of the therapy thread, no mention of learning as
a natural process in this statement: "As an educator myself, I can say
firsthand that lighting the fire of learning in the hearts of students,
providing role models, and building student-teacher bonds are the most
critical factors for successful learning."

I'm skeptical of the virtual classroom also, but given how, in my country,
we feed our best and brightest into the maws of a hyper-materialistic
society, most of whom are unconsciously vested in all the political,
property, and social excuses for not even attempting to educate *highly*
all those who might be so (and thus become 'learned') and, furthermore,
that the overwhelmingly insular university system is itself interlocked
*irrationally* with the same society and its ugly imperatives; those
imperatives, evidently, transcendent over all enlightened claims on behalf
of reason, or even critical thinking. (etc.) Chic justification (?) is,
today, a Darwinian exceptionalism geared toward the obtaining of a
comforting succor of cold cash and a constantly inflating mutual fund! ;-)
Food, that...

So, this article's arguement against the virtual classroom is self-serving.
Moreover, it is hypocritical. One hopes that communities of learning make a
comeback, either virtually or *really*.

***

But, then again, I forget, the top-most point is integration of the elite
alpha male/female ego, and, ummmm, not really

wisdom.

***

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 7 Dec 1998 16:16:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Therapy and 'food'
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Judith,
>
>> Walter,in your model are you thinking of yourself also as being all the
>> ages at once...I don't think I understand...thanks
>
>In a way yes.
>
>That is the countertransferential aspect.  As I am there i am aware how
>the work impacts on me, as a parent, as a child, as a friend...
>hopefully I can stay in role and use those personal feelings for the
>benefit of the client... but also for "little Walter" should he need
>something or be learning something.  I am aware that what happens in my
>room at times might be of great interest to the child in me.  He may
>need the very things the client is getting from the work... in that case
>I also get it.  That is the self care part of the work and not public,
>or only public if my self disclosure would benefit the client. I don't
>leave myself out of it... unless I am unconscious of something... that
>is the time for supervision or my own therapy.
>
>Walter
Wow! how does this work in practice? I've never experienced therapy (other
than a 3 session thing years ago), but my first response and it is a body
response is to flinch...how can I as the client trust that all the roles in
the therapist are whole or at least healthy...this may work but what I
wonder about are the unarticulated aspects which you mention...does the
client have an awareness, meaning is this a vocalized dynamic so that the
client knows what is going on for the therapist...I am reminded of a very
angry man in one of my talks who was filled with rage with the theraputic
model and practioners...said he felt he was being used and that the
therapist(s) always had a hidden agenda...maybe your explanation is the
source of his intuitive feeling...wow...very tricky it would seem to me for
the therapist and maybe this is why I would never go to a therapist...felt
bad to me...well, much to think on...thanks walter
Judith



>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Dec 1998 03:27:20 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Therapy and 'food'
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a00b2902bec527c@[195.200.10.208]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Simon, Nancy, Judith and all who are reading here,

> >I think of my clients a being all the ages at once, and
> >associate that with roles.

> This seems a good and wise way to proceed, Walter. Would you say it
> reflects a general understanding in psychotherapy, or is it more your
> personal approach?

There are so many different approaches... therapy is like, say, painting or
writing it is all in the personal approach even for those who are in a
definite school.  I think that therapists talk about the same stuff in
different ways, each adding something to the shape of the elephant.  What
we have been talking about could be called complexes, archetypal
structures, scrips etc.

I like the concept from Stanislav Grof who taks of "systems of condensed
experience (co-ex systems)".  These are patterns that repeat in peoples
lives, and he relates them to the various stages of the birth process.  I
think of that when I have a client, say, who is forever finding it
difficult to leave the womb... whether that be a school, a relationship, or
therapy.

> Nicely put, Walter. This brings to mind for me those old horror movies, the
> dreadful family secret where someone is locked away in the attic, or
> bricked up behind a wall and left to starve. I suppose that's where those
> films get their impact - they're metaphors for psychological processes
> which render people invisible.

Yes.  That would also relate to a particular birth process!

I think of the sort of discussion we are having here as having a
"psychological awareness" and therapist often do have that.  Some clients
do and some don't.  In the case of the clients who come in with a different
style, I try to tune in with theirs... I'll set goals and review progress
etc. aware all the time how that is part of their, psychological needs,
metaphorical for something in their "co-ex system"...


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:09:36 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      (in)visibility (was: Re: Therapy and 'food')
In-Reply-To:  <36729b98.60198786@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, all,

>> Nicely put, Walter. This brings to mind for me those old horror movies, the
>> dreadful family secret where someone is locked away in the attic, or
>> bricked up behind a wall and left to starve. I suppose that's where those
>> films get their impact - they're metaphors for psychological processes
>> which render people invisible.
>
>Yes.  That would also relate to a particular birth process!

Could you elaborate on this, Walter?

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 8 Dec 1998 06:25:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: (in)visibility
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a0bb292621b7fdf@[195.200.10.110]>
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Simon,

in Re: (in)visibility (was: Re: Therapy and 'food')  You wrote:

> This brings to mind for me those old horror
> movies, the dreadful family secret where someone is locked away
> in the attic, or bricked up behind a wall and left to starve. I
> suppose that's where those films get their impact - they're
> metaphors for psychological processes which render people
> invisible.

And have asked me to elaborate on this:

> Yes.  That would also relate to a particular birth process!

I was still thinking of the stages of birth, particularly as elaborated by
Grof.  The womb can be a heaven or a hell.  There can be a time when it
feels like a trap, at least I imagine so for some, depending on the birth
process.

I have just looked up something in Grof's "Beyond the Brain" he refers to a
particular stage of the birth as a matrix which organises other experience.
The cervix is not yet open.

"While under the influence of this matrix, the subject is also selectively
blinded to anything positive in the world and in his or her own existence.
Agonizing feelings of metaphysical loneliness, helplessness, hopelessness,
inferiority, existential despair, and guilt are standard constituents of
this matrix.

As far as the organizing functions [of this matrix] is concerned, it
attracts COEX systems with memories of situations in which the passive and
helpless individual is subjected to, and victimized by, an overwhelming
destructive force with no chance of escaping.  It also shows affinity to
transpersonal themes with similar qualities."
Page 113

As i read your description of the horror movie, I could see that it might
relate for some to that stage of birth.  It might not tie in with
invisibility so much however, although that could be part of it.



Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:12:06 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hello Psyber-list people,

I've been away in San Francisco at a friend's 40th b-day party and
haven't been following along here. Am just reading through the posts and
wanted to respond to a questions from Nancy -

Nancy,
When The QiGong teacher said he wasn't interested in the type of
experiemnt I was suggesting because it had been done in China I was just
surprised. Also, there had not been alot of time put into it on my part -
just thinking really - all conceptual planning and talking to a few other
people on my end. Brainstorming, imagining - not emotional investment.
Plus I have learned on a visceral level some differences in culture
between Westerners and Chinese people - the approaches are very different
and I often find the Chinese perspective quite refreshing. Still, it
takes some getting used to. Sometimes that sort of abruptness makes me
laugh outloud because it's so unexpected - although that didn't happen in
this case. Strangely enough, I ran into the molecular biologist I
mentioned (whose father had leukemia) on the street while I was in SF
last week. I had hoped to see him but was running out of time (too many
peole to touch bases with) and there he was. It's a small world I guess.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:42:30 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems

On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:12:06 -0800, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

>Hello Psyber-list people,
>
>I've been away in San Francisco at a friend's 40th b-day party and
>haven't been following along here. Am just reading through the posts and
>wanted to respond to a questions from Nancy -

N: I've been missing out also.  Just got back from the hospital (gallstones)
yesterday, and got my modem replaced today.

>Nancy,
>When The QiGong teacher said he wasn't interested in the type of
>experiemnt I was suggesting because it had been done in China I was just
>surprised. Also, there had not been alot of time put into it on my part -
>just thinking really - all conceptual planning and talking to a few other
>people on my end. Brainstorming, imagining - not emotional investment.
>Plus I have learned on a visceral level some differences in culture
>between Westerners and Chinese people - the approaches are very different
>and I often find the Chinese perspective quite refreshing. Still, it
>takes some getting used to. Sometimes that sort of abruptness makes me
>laugh outloud because it's so unexpected - although that didn't happen in
>this case. Strangely enough, I ran into the molecular biologist I
>mentioned (whose father had leukemia) on the street while I was in SF
>last week. I had hoped to see him but was running out of time (too many
>peole to touch bases with) and there he was. It's a small world I guess.
>
>Cheryl
>
N: Thanks for clarifying this Cheryl.  I was confused about your reactions.

Nancy
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:34:27 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: (in)visibility
In-Reply-To:  <3674c0b0.69695591@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Walter,

Thanks for the elaboration - rather intriguing.  I didn't find the book you
mentioned, but I did come across another one of his, called 'The Holotropic
Mind', which covers the ground you mentioned. If I have this right, you
were referring to what Grof calls the BPM (Basic Perinatal Matrix) II stage
of birth. Fascinating stuff, kind of makes sense (logically? intuitively,
perhaps), and yet seems bizarre at the same time. Do you know anyone who
has gone through the experiences he talks about?

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 22:43:36 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Fwd: narcissism links
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Came across this elselist and thought it might be of interest here.

Simon

--------------------

From: "Sam Vaknin, Ph.D." <vaknin@terminal.cz>

My main site is:

Narcissism Revisited -
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/index.html

I established a "narcissism" list a few days ago. The ARCHIVE of the list:
http://www.listbot.com/archive/narcissism
It contains many messages which could be of interest to you.

You might be interested in my extensive websites regarding pathological
narcissism and personality disorders.

These are the main web addresses (they are updated regularly - last time
was yesterday) :

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/index.html
(The Gate - go through it and download more that 4 Mb of material about
Narcissism FREE)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/faq1.html
(More than 65 Frequently Asked Questions - upon accessing the page, please
scroll down to review a complete list)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/msla.html
(A psychodynamic study of Narcissism, using a new vocabulary - a bit
difficult if you haven't gone through the FAQs first)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/thebook.html
(The Third - Print - version will be available on 2/99. Go to this page to
learn about it and to reserve your copy).

Dr. Sam Vaknin
Capital Markets Institute Ltd.
E-mail : vaknin@terminal.cz
Internet :  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/thebook.html
                ("Malignant Self Love - Narcissism Revisited", Third, Print
Only, Edition)
                http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/guide.html
                (Issues in Micro and Macroeconomics)
                http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/index.html
                (The Main Gate to my Sites concerning Pathological
Narcissism)
                http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/culture.html
                (Philosophical Musings)
                http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6297/faq1.html
                (Dozens of FAQs regarding Pathological Narcissism)

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:58:33 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998121115431910@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,

>Just got back from the hospital (gallstones)
>yesterday

Has this sorted out the pains you were experiencing?

Good to hear from you again,

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1998 19:16:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems

On Fri, 11 Dec 1998 23:58:33 +0000, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>>Just got back from the hospital (gallstones)
>>yesterday
>
>Has this sorted out the pains you were experiencing?

N: I guess it's really too soon to say since the is pain and slow step to
recovery from the surgery.
>
>Good to hear from you again,
>
N: Thanks, Simon.  My modem went down entirely Monday, so you wouldn't have
heard from me had I been here.  They replaced the modem today, but while it
isn't completely unresponsive today, a lot of the old problem seem to be
reoccurring.  I don't know what to try next.

  How are you?


>Nancy
Feeling a little like Job.
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1998 05:25:22 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: (in)visibility
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a01b29749993ec3@[195.200.13.226]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon,

> If I have this right, you
> were referring to what Grof calls the BPM (Basic Perinatal Matrix) II stage
> of birth. Fascinating stuff, kind of makes sense (logically? intuitively,
> perhaps), and yet seems bizarre at the same time. Do you know anyone who
> has gone through the experiences he talks about?

Sort of.  I think of it as a direction, an archetypal complex. So as I
listen to people they might bring this BPM II stuff to mind. I ran some
weekend workshops in the 80s called the psychodrama of birth and we
re-enacted birth stories and these stages seem to fit with what people get
into.

I would never work from a theory and make if it with the person though.
Some people seem to lead to more cognitive behavioural stuff, and seem
ready and willing to have their experience mirrored back in that sort of
way.

The question this discussion leads me to is:

How does this relate to Psyber-L now?  What images and stories would make a
fit with our collective process here?  Is there something of the BPM II
situation here?  I am not conscious of that particularly, but it has come
up, and Psyber-L is as of recently a more enclosed & private space!

The story of Eros and Psyche I sense as having drifted further into the
background. I am aware of it though.  Does this sort of musing about
mythological or archetypal echoes make sense to others?  If you let you
imagination flow what comes to mind?


Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1998 05:45:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998121119170060@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy

> They replaced the modem today, but while it
> isn't completely unresponsive today, a lot of the old problem seem to be
> reoccurring.  I don't know what to try next.

I hope your health is mending more successfully than your modem.  I have an
aquaintance who comes around to fix my machine and we were saying the other
day that it is no longer possible to be totally rational about computers.
The art of fixing them is more like medicine, there is a process of trial
and error and sometimes things work or not without us knowing why exactly.


A friend had a problem with their PC and got an expert in, and I thought it
would be interesting to see how they fixed it... I would have just
reinstalled Windows, which seems to be the cheapo fix it I try first.  That
is exactly what they did!

Underlying this technobabble I think I am on topic... these gadgets are
energy systems.


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:21:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy, Walter, all

Wishing you an easeful recovery...these past times it seems what I pray for
is easefulness...I open to the lessons but since I believe in cocreation, I
want to learn easefully...I wonder what gallstones mean? I mean beyond the
physical...are you familiar with Louise Hay's stuff...just gently offering
my perspective...I don't advocate it for anyone except me,however,
sometimes a different logical level can unlock learning thru the
juxtaposition...but of course I may be *galling* (grin)...
>Nancy
>
>N:> They replaced the modem today, but while it
>> isn't completely unresponsive today, a lot of the old problem seem to be
>> reoccurring.  I don't know what to try next.

>
>I hope your health is mending more successfully than your modem.  I have an
>aquaintance who comes around to fix my machine and we were saying the other
>day that it is no longer possible to be totally rational about computers.
>The art of fixing them is more like medicine, there is a process of trial
>and error and sometimes things work or not without us knowing why exactly.
>
>
>A friend had a problem with their PC and got an expert in, and I thought it
>would be interesting to see how they fixed it... I would have just
>reinstalled Windows, which seems to be the cheapo fix it I try first.  That
>is exactly what they did!
>
>Underlying this technobabble I think I am on topic... these gadgets are
>energy systems.

I absolutely know that this is the case...my first years in computers I
noted that the night shift people in the computer rooms had few or no
problems during their shift, but the day people were always in
crisis...what I found was that the night people were usually students in
school and they studied at night thus they didn't want to be interrupted,
but the day people's job was the computer ergo they spent an inordinate
amount of time correcting *mistakes*...I know the service guy use to tell
me to stay out of the computer room because everytime I was in there
something blew...fun to think about

Judith
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1998 13:32:50 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems

On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:21:18 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:

>Nancy, Walter, all
>
>Wishing you an easeful recovery...these past times it seems what I pray for
>is easefulness...I open to the lessons but since I believe in cocreation, I
>want to learn easefully...I wonder what gallstones mean? I mean beyond the
>physical...

N: Yes.  I'd given that some thought also.  It seems that all the pathes it
leads me down are pretty shadowy, or as someone said recently, 'that's your
depression talking.'  I wonder how much I should 'entain' the 'voice of my
depression'?  I know that Jung felt that 'staying with' a depression could
lead you out on the other side to a wiser place.  But it seems to me there
may be a difference between 'staying with' and 'entertaining'.  To me the
latter feels like 'welcoming the negative animus with open arms'.  Rather
dangerous wouldn't you think?  I'd be interested in feedback from any who
might be interested in offering it.  Somehow this sort of 'welcoming' wouldn't
be what I would expect you to advise or emplement for yourself, Judith, but
perhaps I'm wrong?


are you familiar with Louise Hay's stuff...

N: No.  I don't know her.  Might you share a little of her basic tenants?
I do feel that a good look at the metaporical
aspects of illnesses is useful (though tricky).  I wonder what you might
have learned from yours?

   At the moment I am carry back to Simon and my discussion of 'stick and
stones..."  Do you suppose that the 'words that never hurt you.' might
eventually become the gallstones which might indeed hurt one physically?

just gently offering
>my perspective...I don't advocate it for anyone except me,however,
>sometimes a different logical level can unlock learning thru the
>juxtaposition...but of course I may be *galling* (grin)...
>>Nancy
>>
>>N:> They replaced the modem today, but while it
>>> isn't completely unresponsive today, a lot of the old problem seem to be
>>> reoccurring.  I don't know what to try next.

N: I just discovered today that all the mail while I was gone immediately
came into Eudora Light which I had never activated and which will not let
me reply.  I guess I might wax pretty metaphorical about that, too, if I
didn't have so many concete (stones again?) problems to deal with.
>
>>
>>I hope your health is mending more successfully than your modem.

N: Yes, I also, and have had no evidence to the contrary.

 I have an
>>aquaintance who comes around to fix my machine and we were saying the other
>>day that it is no longer possible to be totally rational about computers.
>>The art of fixing them is more like medicine, there is a process of trial
>>and error and sometimes things work or not without us knowing why exactly.
>>
>>
>>A friend had a problem with their PC and got an expert in, and I thought it
>>would be interesting to see how they fixed it... I would have just
>>reinstalled Windows, which seems to be the cheapo fix it I try first.  That
>>is exactly what they did!

N: Yes.  During the 80 hours I spend before my 'in home, extended warrantee
people' could be persuaded to come and replace the moden, different techs
had me run Windows 95 'quick restore' 4 times.  Once because the lst tech
forgot to tell me to disconnect the printer and the third time because that
tech wouldn't let me disconnect it when I suggested it.

  True, Judith, there is a lot going on which might 'rise the bile' and make
me bitter.
>>
>>Underlying this technobabble I think I am on topic... these gadgets are
>>energy systems.
>
>I absolutely know that this is the case...my first years in computers I
>noted that the night shift people in the computer rooms had few or no
>problems during their shift, but the day people were always in
>crisis...what I found was that the night people were usually students in
>school and they studied at night thus they didn't want to be interrupted,
>but the day people's job was the computer ergo they spent an inordinate
>amount of time correcting *mistakes*...I know the service guy use to tell
>me to stay out of the computer room because everytime I was in there
>something blew...fun to think about
>
>Judith
>>
>>
>>Walter
>>
N: Perhaps I am getting my 'just desserts' (hold the cheese cake) for having
suggested to a religious fundamentalist with no acquaintancy with Jung, but
who recently came on the Jung List, that he read Answer to Job.  (Certainly
my negative aniumus is telling me I am getting justice for something...
everything, perhaps.)

Preserve us all from 'our just desserts',
Nancy
>>
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:47:48 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,
I want to give your thoughts more thot and I'm off to help a new person get
her photography studio organized...hummm

That said...

>On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:21:18 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>
>>Nancy, Walter, all
>>
>>Wishing you an easeful recovery...these past times it seems what I pray for
>>is easefulness...I open to the lessons but since I believe in cocreation, I
>>want to learn easefully...I wonder what gallstones mean? I mean beyond the
>>physical...
>
>N: Yes.  I'd given that some thought also.  It seems that all the pathes it
>leads me down are pretty shadowy, or as someone said recently, 'that's your
>depression talking.'  I wonder how much I should 'entain' the 'voice of my
>depression'?  I know that Jung felt that 'staying with' a depression could
>lead you out on the other side to a wiser place.  But it seems to me there
>may be a difference between 'staying with' and 'entertaining'.  To me the
>latter feels like 'welcoming the negative animus with open arms'.  Rather
>dangerous wouldn't you think?  I'd be interested in feedback from any who
>might be interested in offering it.  Somehow this sort of 'welcoming' wouldn't
>be what I would expect you to advise or emplement for yourself, Judith, but
>perhaps I'm wrong?
My wondering Nancy is that if your depression is the winter light issue or
if low light exacerbates it...my next wondering is what your process is to
*learn*...and how aware you are of this ala the Focusing book...I do know
that the way to the *other side* is through it, but that requires a process
of being in it, in relationship to it, and timing...currently I am holding
a huge soul evoluation issue, but I don't feel equipped to go into it by
myself (which is my usual way using my own process)...since the person who
can assist me (using an energy process) isn't available until next week,
I've shelved it...just my way however it sounds as if the highest leverage
point is *process* which is a very personal thing...and how your hold what
is going on...

Nancy...
>
>
>are you familiar with Louise Hay's stuff...
>
>N: No.  I don't know her.  Might you share a little of her basic tenants?
>I do feel that a good look at the metaporical
>aspects of illnesses is useful (though tricky).  I wonder what you might
>have learned from yours?

I don't have the book that lists all manner of physical conditions and what
she would call the *spiritual* issue associated with it as well as the
affirmations for each...I'll have to locate it...

>
>   At the moment I am carry back to Simon and my discussion of 'stick and
>stones..."  Do you suppose that the 'words that never hurt you.' might
>eventually become the gallstones which might indeed hurt one physically?
>
>just gently offering
>>my perspective...I don't advocate it for anyone except me,however,
>>sometimes a different logical level can unlock learning thru the
>>juxtaposition...but of course I may be *galling* (grin)...
>>>Nancy
>>>
>>>N:> They replaced the modem today, but while it
>>>> isn't completely unresponsive today, a lot of the old problem seem to be
>>>> reoccurring.  I don't know what to try next.
>
>N: I just discovered today that all the mail while I was gone immediately
>came into Eudora Light which I had never activated and which will not let
>me reply.  I guess I might wax pretty metaphorical about that, too, if I
>didn't have so many concete (stones again?) problems to deal with.
>>
>>>
>>>I hope your health is mending more successfully than your modem.
>
>N: Yes, I also, and have had no evidence to the contrary.
>
> I have an
>>>aquaintance who comes around to fix my machine and we were saying the other
>>>day that it is no longer possible to be totally rational about computers.
>>>The art of fixing them is more like medicine, there is a process of trial
>>>and error and sometimes things work or not without us knowing why exactly.
>>>
>>>
>>>A friend had a problem with their PC and got an expert in, and I thought it
>>>would be interesting to see how they fixed it... I would have just
>>>reinstalled Windows, which seems to be the cheapo fix it I try first.  That
>>>is exactly what they did!
>
>N: Yes.  During the 80 hours I spend before my 'in home, extended warrantee
>people' could be persuaded to come and replace the moden, different techs
>had me run Windows 95 'quick restore' 4 times.  Once because the lst tech
>forgot to tell me to disconnect the printer and the third time because that
>tech wouldn't let me disconnect it when I suggested it.
>
>  True, Judith, there is a lot going on which might 'rise the bile' and make
>me bitter.

It certainly is a place to start...I don't know anatomy so I can't recall
the function of the gallbadder... I find it useful to examine my
relationship to what my *creation* story is...and what part I might be
engaged with shifting...this gets into how one assumes the universe
*works*...and bitterness as well as other things like regret is an
outgrowth of how one is oriented in one's beliefs...IMO and experience

>>>
>>>Underlying this technobabble I think I am on topic... these gadgets are
>>>energy systems.
>>
>>I absolutely know that this is the case...my first years in computers I
>>noted that the night shift people in the computer rooms had few or no
>>problems during their shift, but the day people were always in
>>crisis...what I found was that the night people were usually students in
>>school and they studied at night thus they didn't want to be interrupted,
>>but the day people's job was the computer ergo they spent an inordinate
>>amount of time correcting *mistakes*...I know the service guy use to tell
>>me to stay out of the computer room because everytime I was in there
>>something blew...fun to think about
>>
>>Judith
>>>
>>>
>>>Walter
>>>
>N: Perhaps I am getting my 'just desserts' (hold the cheese cake) for having
>suggested to a religious fundamentalist with no acquaintancy with Jung, but
>who recently came on the Jung List, that he read Answer to Job.  (Certainly
>my negative aniumus is telling me I am getting justice for something...
>everything, perhaps.)

Ah the justice thang...

more to think about
Judith
>
>Preserve us all from 'our just desserts',
>Nancy
>>>
>>>__________________________________________________________________
>>>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>>>
>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:10:57 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998121213330879@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,

>I wonder how much I should 'entain' the 'voice of my
>depression'?  I know that Jung felt that 'staying with' a depression could
>lead you out on the other side to a wiser place.  But it seems to me there
>may be a difference between 'staying with' and 'entertaining'.

I would turn this around and suggest that, rather than you needing to stay
with depression, depression has been staying with you as an unwelcome house
guest - and it needs to be booted out. Then you'll be able to entertain
whoever you want, whenever you want, and go out into the world without fear
that it will tag along and spoil things.

>   At the moment I am carry back to Simon and my discussion of 'stick and
>stones..."  Do you suppose that the 'words that never hurt you.' might
>eventually become the gallstones which might indeed hurt one physically?

The 'words that never hurt you' create invisible wounds that hide in shame,
unlistened to, abandoned; maybe if they fester for long enough they'll find
another way to cry out.

Simon

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:20:35 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems

Hi Simon, All,
   Sorry about the typos (tho they can be illuminating at times).  I'm abed
still and my monitor is some 4 ft. away.  (That's my excuse this week.)
Perhaps Unc wanted to say 'contain'.

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:10:57 +0000, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>>I wonder how much I should 'entain' the 'voice of my
>>depression'?  I know that Jung felt that 'staying with' a depression could
>>lead you out on the other side to a wiser place.  But it seems to me there
>>may be a difference between 'staying with' and 'entertaining'.
>
>I would turn this around and suggest that, rather than you needing to stay
>with depression, depression has been staying with you as an unwelcome house
>guest - and it needs to be booted out. Then you'll be able to entertain
>whoever you want, whenever you want, and go out into the world without fear
>that it will tag along and spoil things.

N: As usual, Simon, you are a comfort.  So far I have found no viable way
to do the 'booting', tho thank you all for your advice.  I've tried pretty
well everything I've heard of over the years without notable success.
>
>>   At the moment I am carry back to Simon and my discussion of 'stick and
>>stones..."  Do you suppose that the 'words that never hurt you.' might
>>eventually become the gallstones which might indeed hurt one physically?
>
>The 'words that never hurt you' create invisible wounds that hide in shame,
>unlistened to, abandoned; maybe if they fester for long enough they'll find
>another way to cry out.
>
>Simon

N: That, too, is Jungian (in so far as I've been able to find info on the
somatization of psyche's wounds).  I cried at the part in the play, Our Town,
when the ghost girl came back and kept calling out to her mother, but her
mother couldn't see her.  Clearly that is how I felt with mine.
  Now, if I understand you, it might be that I felt ashamed (that it was
my inadequacy?) that I was 'in the wrong' for feeling pain over something
with which my mother could not empathize.  (Empathy does seem to be a key
at these times.)
  There has been feelings of 'unlistened to, abandoned' going on in my life
since also.  There is a book which connected for me, The Scapegoat Comples:
Toward a Mythology of Shadow and Guilt by Sylvia Brinton Perera.  Recently
I read that in our time shame has taken the place of guilt (a Christian
Jungian author rather regretting the rejection of 'sin' currently, if I
recall.)
  At any rate I do seem to be vulnerable to projections of 'fault' (as in
'it's all your...')  And it might even be that behind these 'festering'
hurts there lies anger, even rage, which would like a few solid 'stones'
to hurl at my 'accusers'.
  I find 'shame' a difficult emotion (?) with which to get in touch.  I
wonder why all the analysis and therapy I've had wouldn't prevent this
somatization.  I guess we all have a lot to learn.
  I wondered, Walter, if you were not at some level making some of these
connections when you brought up '(in)visibility'.  If you verbalized the
transition, I somehow missed it.
  I'm not sure how much use this is to the group in general, but it is my
understanding that this is one of the reasons why we closed the List (became
invisible to the viewing public?)

Thank you, Simon,

Nancy




>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:10:08 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Somatization
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy, Simon, Judith, Walter, all,

I'm going to play devil's advocate here a bit. Why? Because I've heard
this discussion so many times over the years..what I say here may seem
uncaring or unkind but please believe me it's not. It is not my intention
to take away anyone's cherished beleifs..still I need to speak up.

I'll start with a story about a friend of mine. Ginny was a bioenergtic
therapist..for those of you who have been around for many years in this
area (Judith?) you'll remember the high profile of bioenergetics in the
70's. I went to her groups, had private sessions, even trained with her
for a while. She told me once that she had "the body handled". By this
she meant that her psychological issues, as manifest in the body, were
complete. She'd hamdled them. Then she developed breast cancer. I think
we were all somewhat naive during the 60's and 70's. She and noone close
to her could believe she had breast cancer. It took six months for her to
die. Her psychological issues may have been taken care of but she still
deveolped cancer. She still died.

Why do I tell this story? Because it was a big lesson for me and many
other people. Nancy, there may be many reasons you developed gall stones,
none of them having to do with any psychological issues. Perhaps you have
a genetic predisposition; perhaps there is too much saturated fat and too
little exercise in your life; perhaps you have an 'energy block" in that
area of your body beacuse of chronically tight musculature, perhaps,
perhaps, perhaps...

There will never be "perfect" psychological health because "perfect" and
"health" is always a perspective, a definition, someone else's agenda.
And no matter what anyone's psychological health is or was, disease
exists, period. No one (e.g. not Buddha (who died, accordingly to legend,
most likely, of gallstones, btw) has escaped old age, sickness and death.
Please don't assume that your gallstones are because you haven't resolved
some "issue" or are the result of some "issue". The human body over time
decays in some way or another. This is a fact of life on this planet. The
new age exercise of asking yourself "what is galling you" may be of help
to your psyche but endless years of looking into such an issue may have
done nothing to prevent your situation because such an exercise may be
virtually useless on the physical level.

It's so hard for me to listen people perhaps blame thenselves for a
disease process because they haven't done "enough inner work on
themselves". There is a story of a chinese monk in northern CAlifornia
who wouldn't ordain a young chinese woman before she died of cancer
because her disease showed that her mind wasn't "pure". I guess he
wouldn't have ordained Buddha either.

Don't be so hard on yourself is my meassge. Just take care of yourself
during your healing as best you can. And remember that noone gets out
alive. Noone. I don't mean to be grim - it's just what really happens. We
don't need to second guess ourselves at exactly the time when we need to
ease our minds. I hope your recovery goes well.

Cheryl
caring on a very deep level

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:53:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Somatization
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,
I take no issue with your point of view at all...what I do wonder about is
the audacity (my judgment)of someone saying they have taken care of all
their psychological issues...now for me I'll venture in since you have...I
don't see physical illness related to the psychological, but to the soul
incarnated on this earth plane...and I see these physical manifestations as
signposts on the soul's journey...thus when I had ruptured cyst which I
disregarded as anything as just that late I had a partial
hysterectomy...while coming out of the anesthetic in my room my then
teacher and I addressed what was happening to my body, my femaleness...this
led me to a long investigation of what this meant on a soul level which led
to insight and illumination and growth...for me is isn't about blaming *me*
for dis-ease...what it is about for me is directly related to one's story
about what we're doing here...and from one's locus of focus-physical
looking in or in looking out...each is a different perspective and leads to
a whole construct of how one is oriented to the world...my perspectivestory
sees manifestation as a result of something...I don't disregard western
medicine but there is too much evidence of the mindbody connection...now
*how* the mindbody is connected is not clear...I live everyday with a body
condition which is manifested in immunity diffeciency...which leaves me
open to every little bug...why is it that the people around me are sick and
I am not at this time? one of the realities *is* about how we hold our
physicality...it is a sacred temple from my perspective so I concentrate on
not abusing it...ie: hae filters on my water to filter cholorine
out...anyway I am not a *new ager* in any sense of the word however, I am
not of the belief that if we can't prove it scientifically it doesn't exist
because the scientific model filters out the unseen by virtue of the
methodology...

What is difficult here as always is having a discussion where we each hold
a lifetime of beliefs...

When my mother had cancer she called me (early 70's) and we began to work
with meditation...she found the book written by peole I think in Ft Worth
working with terminal cancer patients and began to use their guided
imagery...her counts dramatically shifted and the presence of lukemia
disappeared...the doctor couldn't explain what was happening...blaming
himself interestingly enuf...she lived 7 years which was unheard of
then...can we attribute her extending her life to meditation and guided
imagery...now we can because they are using these techniques in
hospitals...we all have annecdotal experiences

The issue is that our knowledge is incomplete and applying any piece of it
ie the woman with biogenics (I'm not familiar with this BTW) and saying it
is *the* knowledge is shortsighted IMO...this is why I approached my health
crisis from the learning perspective...and I've learned to sense my body's
intelligence and how it communicates and how I am in cooperation with
it...this is not to negate going on an airplane with that recycled are and
a week later having lung problems...that is a reality...

I would never say an answer is *the* answer...what I was addressing to
Nancy is giving her another way to look at the issue...to juxtapose my
beingness to hers and maybe an insight might pop out about her
depression...my central tenet is that I am learning for the universe and my
beingness is what I have to learn bythrough...and I use anyway I can to
probe into the issues, holding a very healthy skepticim and an openness to
learning something...what I learned from my famale issues changed my life
because it brought me to how the patriarchal archetype was working in my
own life...and then once seen I could change the unconscious decisions I
was making now that I could see...

It works for me but I don't advocate *it* as truth or complete or correct
for anyone else...my beliefs aren't cherished because I am always
challenging them to get to deeper knowing...what I do challenge is anyone
thinking they have *the* answer...it is my process and as a good friend
said recently my *audacity* which I use in service

So, Cheryl, I am always open to learning which I continuously do here and
have respect for your engagement...what I would caution is how you lay your
past experience with this discussion onto this discussion and to make
assumptions about my perspective...I have been exploring this path for over
40 years long before there was anyone calling themselves new agers...I
would never put myself into that category...
Blessings,
Judith

>Nancy, Simon, Judith, Walter, all,
>
>I'm going to play devil's advocate here a bit. Why? Because I've heard
>this discussion so many times over the years..what I say here may seem
>uncaring or unkind but please believe me it's not. It is not my intention
>to take away anyone's cherished beleifs..still I need to speak up.
>
>I'll start with a story about a friend of mine. Ginny was a bioenergtic
>therapist..for those of you who have been around for many years in this
>area (Judith?) you'll remember the high profile of bioenergetics in the
>70's. I went to her groups, had private sessions, even trained with her
>for a while. She told me once that she had "the body handled". By this
>she meant that her psychological issues, as manifest in the body, were
>complete. She'd hamdled them. Then she developed breast cancer. I think
>we were all somewhat naive during the 60's and 70's. She and noone close
>to her could believe she had breast cancer. It took six months for her to
>die. Her psychological issues may have been taken care of but she still
>deveolped cancer. She still died.
>
>Why do I tell this story? Because it was a big lesson for me and many
>other people. Nancy, there may be many reasons you developed gall stones,
>none of them having to do with any psychological issues. Perhaps you have
>a genetic predisposition; perhaps there is too much saturated fat and too
>little exercise in your life; perhaps you have an 'energy block" in that
>area of your body beacuse of chronically tight musculature, perhaps,
>perhaps, perhaps...
>
>There will never be "perfect" psychological health because "perfect" and
>"health" is always a perspective, a definition, someone else's agenda.
>And no matter what anyone's psychological health is or was, disease
>exists, period. No one (e.g. not Buddha (who died, accordingly to legend,
>most likely, of gallstones, btw) has escaped old age, sickness and death.
>Please don't assume that your gallstones are because you haven't resolved
>some "issue" or are the result of some "issue". The human body over time
>decays in some way or another. This is a fact of life on this planet. The
>new age exercise of asking yourself "what is galling you" may be of help
>to your psyche but endless years of looking into such an issue may have
>done nothing to prevent your situation because such an exercise may be
>virtually useless on the physical level.
>
>It's so hard for me to listen people perhaps blame thenselves for a
>disease process because they haven't done "enough inner work on
>themselves". There is a story of a chinese monk in northern CAlifornia
>who wouldn't ordain a young chinese woman before she died of cancer
>because her disease showed that her mind wasn't "pure". I guess he
>wouldn't have ordained Buddha either.
>
>Don't be so hard on yourself is my meassge. Just take care of yourself
>during your healing as best you can. And remember that noone gets out
>alive. Noone. I don't mean to be grim - it's just what really happens. We
>don't need to second guess ourselves at exactly the time when we need to
>ease our minds. I hope your recovery goes well.
>
>Cheryl
>caring on a very deep level
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:35:21 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Web Page

Blessed 'beaver',  I'm sorry I missed this post of yours until now.  I guess
I was too enmeshed in my own computer problems, as well as physical and
psychological to want to tangle with what appeared to be techness stuff,
though it wasn't a conscious or intentional 'skipping'.

See below, Nancy

On Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:38:33 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>I am replying to:
>
>  Re: Psyber-L Files and Web Page
>  Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:15:43 -0500
>
>You wrote:
>
>>  I've taken a look at the new introductory material.  It was a little
>>  hasty because of problems I'm having with being disconnected.
>>  Generally it looked ok to me with one reservation.  I question the
>>  contextual use of the word 'media' in the Purpose statement.  To me it
>> read as if you meant our focus was on cyberspace itself.  Somehow 'psyche'
>> doesn't seem like a media to me.
>
>This is how it reads, at the moment,
>
>|  The purpose of Psyber-L is to experientially learn about the
>|  psyche in cyberspace. All discussion contributes to the group
>|  life and assists our consciousness of the media, hence a wide
>|  range of topics are suitable. It is the intention that thoughtful
>|  discussion about the process is part of the discussion. The
>|  comment and learning and is not kept separate from the
>|  discussions, and forms part of it.
>
>How does it read with these changes, which i prefer:
>
>''The purpose of Psyber-L is to learn experientially about the
>psyche in cyberspace.  As all online discussion contributes to
>the unfolding of the psyche a wide range of topics is suitable.
>Participants are encouraged to make posts about the process and
>how the psyche manifests and can be nurtured [*in ?] cyberspace. The
>comment and learning is not kept separate from the discussions.''

N: Yes. That is much better (notice the tiny editorial insertion of 'in')
and nicely takes care of my earlier problem.
>
>Nancy, you are right, our focus is rightly on the psyche.  I think there is much
>to learn about how it is manifest in this medium, and learning about that is
>important too.
>
>I have just read an interesting article about "distance learning" and its
>downside.
>
>http://commons.somewhere.com/rre/1998/RRE.Digital.Diploma.Mill.html
>
>Sadly I think the critics are on target, IMO because we have not learnt how to
>use the medium, and because the technology is still very poorly designed.  I am
>beginning to think of myself as learning to be an "online interaction
>specialist", developing the knowledge of how to enable people to warm-up to the
>full use of this medium for interaction, which is the basis of relationships,
>learning and psyche!
>
>I don't mean that the media need to do more fancy things, rather it must do
>what it does more simply, elegantly, and uniformly.  That might take years.  It
>might also take the breakdown of the monopolies and the rise of the open source
>movement and the development of a new profession.  Who knows.
>
>Whatever it is, I think it is possible to go deeply into our being here, which
>makes me think that learning and our soul life could be enhanced via digital
>media.  All the time the possibility of the "bad breast" is just as likely and
>mostly what we get. How can we do it well?
>
>>   Oh, and one other thing: I find the light black print difficult to read
>> against the yellow-orange background.  This is partly because of my particular
>> vision problems, but just thought I'd make mention.
>
>Ok,
>I have made  the text on the page larger...
>
>http://psybernet.co.nz/psyber-l.htm
>
>how is that?

N:  I didn't catch this part before I tried to answer, so may have to return
to it after another look.  But for now my impression was that you had made
the text 'darker' which was good.  It was the lack of the strong contrast
one gets with b&w that bothered me; however, I do remember being aware of
more problems with yellow on other sites.  (Was it textured as in a yellow
'weave'?  That has definitely been a problem elsewhere.)

 Or is it the *colour* that is the problem?
>
>I have also been making sure things work in Netscape.
>
>Walter
>beavering away on the web pages
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:19:24 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Somatization
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,

I don't now or haven't been thinking of you as a new-ager - I'm not sure
why you think I was referring to you at all. I inserted your name into
that post only because I thought you might be familiar with bioenergetics
(please re-read where and in what context your name appears) - which btw,
I never thought was the "only" way of anything - I'm surprised at how you
read the post since it wasn't particularly meant for you - I think these
things are difficult to discuss - certainly nothing I said in that post
has been a "belief of a lifetime" for me - just things I've come to
understand through experience - I too question Ginny's assumption that
she had the body trip "handled" - after it was all over I called it "new
age arrogance" I didn't insert that into the post because I was concerned
that someone might think that I thought they were arrogant. Certainly
"soul" is not something I understand - I can only deal with what's in
front of me. More power to you if you understand such things. The post
was not really meant for anyone in particular but came out of, as I said,
many similiar discussions I'd heard over the years. When I get a response
like that I think - why bother.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 00:22:23 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Somatization
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,

>Judith,
>
>I don't now or haven't been thinking of you as a new-ager - I'm not sure
>why you think I was referring to you at all. I inserted your name into
>that post only because I thought you might be familiar with bioenergetics
>(please re-read where and in what context your name appears) - which btw,
>I never thought was the "only" way of anything - I'm surprised at how you
>read the post since it wasn't particularly meant for you - I think these
>things are difficult to discuss - certainly nothing I said in that post
>has been a "belief of a lifetime" for me - just things I've come to
>understand through experience -
Yes, exactly what I meant...we each have our own unique life experience...
I think *bothering* is exactly what we do here in this space...meaning
brining forth who we are and all the difficulties in entering into
discussion with *self* ala tone and how we write and receive what is
written...admittedly I drew associations because I had been the one to
respond to Nancy with thots of body metaphor...so I fall on my sword in
this case...I certainly do not want to silence our discussion...the
inference I drew had to do with the idea of looking at physical disease
from a metaphorical perspective thus "galling"(which I used in the
post)...only as a means to gather data...admittedly I responded to the
words *new age* in association to the disucssion

<I too question Ginny's assumption that
>she had the body trip "handled" - after it was all over I called it "new
>age arrogance" I didn't insert that into the post because I was concerned
>that someone might think that I thought they were arrogant.

I would maybe call it new age ignorance but I have experieenced it as
arrogance...Ken Wilbur in Sex Soul and Spirituality continues his logical
formulation of belief structures and would point out that "new age" is the
other side of the same coin...and often as is the case (like feminism)
those against the beliefs use terms like "new age" to characture to
discredit...like Hilary Clinton's experience with Jean Houston where Bob
whatshisname from the Washington Post said they did a seance in the White
house calling forth Eleanor Rosevelt...which was a complete
misrepresentation of what was going on...however, it did the
trick...Houston in the coming months experienced major cancellations for
her work around the world...

< Certainly
>"soul" is not something I understand - I can only deal with what's in
>front of me. More power to you if you understand such things.

It is not that I understand it but that I engage in *seeking* to understand
it and see what I learn...my journey into this was instigated by me not
understanding what was in front of me...my external reality as I
experienced it as a child made absolutely no sense and continuously negated
who I was...50 years later people talk about learning styles and
multidimensionality and organic vs mechanical, but back then I was way out
of the bell curve and thot I was crazy...so my need to survive prompted me
to explore in order to make sense of who I was in relation to this
reality...

 The post
>was not really meant for anyone in particular but came out of, as I said,
>many similiar discussions I'd heard over the years.

And I wasn't negating the data or point of view you were bringing...what I
reacted to was *similar discussions*...

 >When I get a response
>like that I think - why bother.

As I said in the beginning, we all *bother* here...and we continue to
engage through words, not knowing anyone's history or point of view to
begin with, just where we are in the moment...we all have lifetimes of
experience which cannot be distilled...and we misunderstand and have
problems with tone and still we bother...

I can certainly apologize for my tone, and can honestly say I was engaging
with integrity and my authenticity which I feltfeel from you...I didn't
take what you said *personally*...it doesn't occur to me to take something
personally, not in my nature which is at least a window into understanding
how I can lack sensativity to how what I say is received, meaning that
other's could take something I say personally so I need to be aware of
that...I engage with the thoughts...that I lack charm and warmth in my
engagement is sometimes an issue here...but it is not any different f2f for
those who know me...the only saving grace f2f is that I have a huge sense
of humor which cannot be expressed in this medium...

So I hope you'll continue to *bother*
Judith bothered and learning





>
>Cheryl
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:14:11 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998121313210695@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy

A few quick words... in the midst of a too hectic time for me.

>   I find 'shame' a difficult emotion (?) with which to get in touch.  I
> wonder why all the analysis and therapy I've had wouldn't prevent this
> somatization.  I guess we all have a lot to learn.

Someone mentioned Louise Hay whose philosophy i dislike.  She implies that
dealing with the underlying emotions will cure illness.  My brother when
grappling with aids hung onto "Louise" as a straw.

I think the metaphor inherent in illness may shed light on the psyche,
hence the illness may be a teller, a window into the soul.  Hence we may
truly come to love the disease which reveals so much.  Healing not cure.

>   I wondered, Walter, if you were not at some level making some of these
> connections when you brought up '(in)visibility'.  If you verbalized the
> transition, I somehow missed it.

Connections spring out at me and I noted one about closed spaces and the
womb corresponding (in the old fashioned psychic sense) to the changes in
the list.  I had not thought of invisibility but your link makes sense to
me.

>   I'm not sure how much use this is to the group in general, but it is my
> understanding that this is one of the reasons why we closed the List (became
> invisible to the viewing public?)

What reason are you thinking of here?  The two changes are not really a
"closing", though the word does fit... the archives are members only and
new members join with more visibility to the participants.

I know i mentioned "closed" but I am about to announce Psyber-L in various
places, and expect more participants to be here soon.

Walter
Enjoying the discussions









__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:16:37 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Somatization
In-Reply-To:  <36747380.1384@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>

  Somatization
  Sun, 13 Dec 1998 18:10:08 -0800


> Nancy, Simon, Judith, Walter, all,
>
> I'm going to play devil's advocate here a bit. Why? Because I've heard
> this discussion so many times over the years..what I say here may seem
> uncaring or unkind but please believe me it's not. It is not my intention
> to take away anyone's cherished beleifs..still I need to speak up.
>
> I'll start with a story about a friend of mine. Ginny was a bioenergtic
> therapist..for those of you who have been around for many years in this
> area (Judith?) you'll remember the high profile of bioenergetics in the
> 70's. I went to her groups, had private sessions, even trained with her
> for a while. She told me once that she had "the body handled". By this
> she meant that her psychological issues, as manifest in the body, were
> complete. She'd hamdled them. Then she developed breast cancer. I think
> we were all somewhat naive during the 60's and 70's. She and noone close
> to her could believe she had breast cancer. It took six months for her to
> die. Her psychological issues may have been taken care of but she still
> deveolped cancer. She still died.
>
> Why do I tell this story? Because it was a big lesson for me and many
> other people. Nancy, there may be many reasons you developed gall stones,
> none of them having to do with any psychological issues. Perhaps you have
> a genetic predisposition; perhaps there is too much saturated fat and too
> little exercise in your life; perhaps you have an 'energy block" in that
> area of your body beacuse of chronically tight musculature, perhaps,
> perhaps, perhaps...
>
> There will never be "perfect" psychological health because "perfect" and
> "health" is always a perspective, a definition, someone else's agenda.
> And no matter what anyone's psychological health is or was, disease
> exists, period. No one (e.g. not Buddha (who died, accordingly to legend,
> most likely, of gallstones, btw) has escaped old age, sickness and death.
> Please don't assume that your gallstones are because you haven't resolved
> some "issue" or are the result of some "issue". The human body over time
> decays in some way or another. This is a fact of life on this planet. The
> new age exercise of asking yourself "what is galling you" may be of help
> to your psyche but endless years of looking into such an issue may have
> done nothing to prevent your situation because such an exercise may be
> virtually useless on the physical level.
>
> It's so hard for me to listen people perhaps blame thenselves for a
> disease process because they haven't done "enough inner work on
> themselves". There is a story of a chinese monk in northern CAlifornia
> who wouldn't ordain a young chinese woman before she died of cancer
> because her disease showed that her mind wasn't "pure". I guess he
> wouldn't have ordained Buddha either.
>
> Don't be so hard on yourself is my meassge. Just take care of yourself
> during your healing as best you can. And remember that noone gets out
> alive. Noone. I don't mean to be grim - it's just what really happens. We
> don't need to second guess ourselves at exactly the time when we need to
> ease our minds. I hope your recovery goes well.
>
> Cheryl
> caring on a very deep level
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
> here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:47:30 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:14:11 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:

>Nancy
>
>A few quick words... in the midst of a too hectic time for me.
>
>>   I find 'shame' a difficult emotion (?) with which to get in touch.  I
>> wonder why all the analysis and therapy I've had wouldn't prevent this
>> somatization.  I guess we all have a lot to learn.
>
>Someone mentioned Louise Hay whose philosophy i dislike.  She implies that
>dealing with the underlying emotions will cure illness.  My brother when
>grappling with aids hung onto "Louise" as a straw.

N: Yes.  That (cure) may be too much.  My understanding from Jungians has
been that 'prevention' might be possible if caught soon enough (which I
thought a possibility in my case as I'd been in [and out of] therapy for
a long time.  But that once the illness had affected actual changes in the
the body, it was too late.  Insight might however still prevent a
reoccurrance (not directly applicable in my case now) or possibly a new
manifestation in another related part of the body.
    Perhaps I am missing something, but with a terminal disease (I'm
thinking of your brother) isn't a 'straw' better than nothing?  I would
think that the danger would come when an ill person rejected proven medical
techniques in favor of 'alternate cures'.


>I think the metaphor inherent in illness may shed light on the psyche,
>hence the illness may be a teller, a window into the soul.  Hence we may
>truly come to love the disease which reveals so much.  Healing not cure.

N: Do you have some thoughts on how this might apply to gallstones?
  What has occurred to me so far is that I have learned to 'keep in' feelings
of bitterness (bile which is stored in the gallbladder) until such time as
I could transform it into something which could be expressed constructively.
Yet, as I understand it, that is the alchemical method.
>
>>   I wondered, Walter, if you were not at some level making some of these
>> connections when you brought up '(in)visibility'.  If you verbalized the
>> transition, I somehow missed it.
>
>Connections spring out at me and I noted one about closed spaces and the
>womb corresponding (in the old fashioned psychic sense) to the changes in
>the list.  I had not thought of invisibility but your link makes sense to
>me.

N: I went back and took another look, finding it was Simon who made the
initial transition to (in)visibility, which was certainly a large part of
my transactions with my mother (and probably everyone else's with the
possible exception of her original, fundamentalist family).
>
>>   I'm not sure how much use this is to the group in general, but it is my
>> understanding that this is one of the reasons why we closed the List (became
>> invisible to the viewing public?)
>
>What reason are you thinking of here?

N: Have I misunderstood something?  I thought that what we wrote could no
longer be viewed my non-members (I'm a little uncertain at what age a post
becomes an archive).  And that one of the reasons for this change was to
allow a greater safety in presenting personal material.
  I meant 'closed' to the public view (i.e. non-members)

>The two changes are not really a
>"closing", though the word does fit... the archives are members only and
>new members join with more visibility to the participants.
>
>I know i mentioned "closed" but I am about to announce Psyber-L in various
>places, and expect more participants to be here soon.

N: I did understand you planned to do this, but perhaps the reminder is
well placed.
   I'm trying now to recall what your reasons exactly were for making these
changes. (?) You did speak of temenos, I think. (?)
>
>Walter
>Enjoying the discussions
>
PS  I did go back and find your post so that I could take another look at
the introductory material (my experience is that 'you can get 'there' from
'here'.)  I guess it was the 'larger lettering' which made it look darker.
The contrast is still less thank black on white and people wanting to print
may have to set their printers for 'gray' tone, thus I would prefer a plain
white background for the material proper.  The colorful alchemical tree
tapestry against which no print is present is a lovely esthetic.
_______________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:03:35 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Somatization
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,

Thank you for your thoughtful response - although the idea that you were
'falling on your sword" "bothered" me. The 'non-theatric' side of me
said, (rather dryly) "well, noone asked you to do that, my dear". I hope
you hear my droll tone.

This discussion and your response has stirred up some things - old
frustations of, yes, I agree, new age 'ignorance' and also  issues of
being misunderstood, the limitations of this medium, maybe the desire of
really wanting connect with someone around these kinds of issues and
discussions and feeling thwarted, and on and on and on. I haven't read
much of Ken Wilbur because his writing has been too "philosophical' for
me - I was a philosphy major in college and feel I let that "approach" to
looking at life go many years ago - although from what I understand
people feel he is brillant, etc etc. (an aside, a little odd in light of
this discussion - his wife, before she died of breast cancer, and I had
the same MD in Mill Valley - a wonderful and good doctor who I was sorry
to leave behind when I moved here).

Anyway, I appreciate your response - it wasn't easy for me to speak up in
such a (loud? - it *felt* loud to me because I had to take a deep breath
and plunge ahead to *say* it) manner because I knew the danger of being
misunderstood. I have more to say but have to get ready for work.

I received the keys to my new house yesterday and will be very very
occupied (np pun intended!) with getting ready to move in. It's the
biggest Christmas present I've ever received although it came with the
instructions *some assembly required*. Now the work begins.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:36:48 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems

Judith, Are you still thinking? (Don't mean to push.)
  I had another what I might call 'negative animus' experience this morning.
  I woke angry (galled?) and decided to try 'Focusing'.  My stomach felt
upset.  Soon an idea (later so as to be more understandable) popped into
my mind.
  Yesterday an old friend called.  Among other things we talked of how
'mature' children seem to turn on parents when something else going wrong
in their lives.  She told me a story of going to stay with a new friend.
the friend's son called and apparently did just that (30 yrs worth). Then
the friend turned on my friend and displaced the whole thing on her!
   While I was focusing the idea was 'could I have done that when whe was
staying with me some 20 yrs. ago?'  I don't actually belief that this could
have been the case, but this smacks of the 'negative animus'' sneaky little
ways of trying to keep a woman 'under his thumb' by exagerating every little
thing into "you always fail", "what a worthless $#% you are."  Not very
useful when trying to heal or shake off depression.
    Perhaps you don't have such experiences.  I'd be interested in anything
you (or others) might have to say about how to do soul work under these
conditions.

   Nancy


On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:47:48 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:

>Nancy,
>I want to give your thoughts more thot and I'm off to help a new person get
>her photography studio organized...hummm
>
>That said...
>
>>On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:21:18 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>>
>>>Nancy, Walter, all
>>>
>>>Wishing you an easeful recovery...these past times it seems what I pray for
>>>is easefulness...I open to the lessons but since I believe in cocreation, I
>>>want to learn easefully...I wonder what gallstones mean? I mean beyond the
>>>physical...
>>
>>N: Yes.  I'd given that some thought also.  It seems that all the pathes it
>>leads me down are pretty shadowy, or as someone said recently, 'that's your
>>depression talking.'  I wonder how much I should 'entain' the 'voice of my
>>depression'?  I know that Jung felt that 'staying with' a depression could
>>lead you out on the other side to a wiser place.  But it seems to me there
>>may be a difference between 'staying with' and 'entertaining'.  To me the
>>latter feels like 'welcoming the negative animus with open arms'.  Rather
>>dangerous wouldn't you think?  I'd be interested in feedback from any who
>>might be interested in offering it.  Somehow this sort of 'welcoming' wouldn't
>>be what I would expect you to advise or emplement for yourself, Judith, but
>>perhaps I'm wrong?
>My wondering Nancy is that if your depression is the winter light issue or
>if low light exacerbates it...my next wondering is what your process is to
>*learn*...and how aware you are of this ala the Focusing book...I do know
>that the way to the *other side* is through it, but that requires a process
>of being in it, in relationship to it, and timing...currently I am holding
>a huge soul evoluation issue, but I don't feel equipped to go into it by
>myself (which is my usual way using my own process)...since the person who
>can assist me (using an energy process) isn't available until next week,
>I've shelved it...just my way however it sounds as if the highest leverage
>point is *process* which is a very personal thing...and how your hold what
>is going on...
>
>Nancy...
>>
>>
>>are you familiar with Louise Hay's stuff...
>>
>>N: No.  I don't know her.  Might you share a little of her basic tenants?
>>I do feel that a good look at the metaporical
>>aspects of illnesses is useful (though tricky).  I wonder what you might
>>have learned from yours?
>
>I don't have the book that lists all manner of physical conditions and what
>she would call the *spiritual* issue associated with it as well as the
>affirmations for each...I'll have to locate it...
>
>>
>>   At the moment I am carry back to Simon and my discussion of 'stick and
>>stones..."  Do you suppose that the 'words that never hurt you.' might
>>eventually become the gallstones which might indeed hurt one physically?
>>
>>just gently offering
>>>my perspective...I don't advocate it for anyone except me,however,
>>>sometimes a different logical level can unlock learning thru the
>>>juxtaposition...but of course I may be *galling* (grin)...
>>>>Nancy
>>>>
>>>>N:> They replaced the modem today, but while it
>>>>> isn't completely unresponsive today, a lot of the old problem seem to be
>>>>> reoccurring.  I don't know what to try next.
>>
>>N: I just discovered today that all the mail while I was gone immediately
>>came into Eudora Light which I had never activated and which will not let
>>me reply.  I guess I might wax pretty metaphorical about that, too, if I
>>didn't have so many concete (stones again?) problems to deal with.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I hope your health is mending more successfully than your modem.
>>
>>N: Yes, I also, and have had no evidence to the contrary.
>>
>> I have an
>>>>aquaintance who comes around to fix my machine and we were saying the other
>>>>day that it is no longer possible to be totally rational about computers.
>>>>The art of fixing them is more like medicine, there is a process of trial
>>>>and error and sometimes things work or not without us knowing why exactly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A friend had a problem with their PC and got an expert in, and I thought it
>>>>would be interesting to see how they fixed it... I would have just
>>>>reinstalled Windows, which seems to be the cheapo fix it I try first.  That
>>>>is exactly what they did!
>>
>>N: Yes.  During the 80 hours I spend before my 'in home, extended warrantee
>>people' could be persuaded to come and replace the moden, different techs
>>had me run Windows 95 'quick restore' 4 times.  Once because the lst tech
>>forgot to tell me to disconnect the printer and the third time because that
>>tech wouldn't let me disconnect it when I suggested it.
>>
>>  True, Judith, there is a lot going on which might 'rise the bile' and make
>>me bitter.
>
>It certainly is a place to start...I don't know anatomy so I can't recall
>the function of the gallbadder... I find it useful to examine my
>relationship to what my *creation* story is...and what part I might be
>engaged with shifting...this gets into how one assumes the universe
>*works*...and bitterness as well as other things like regret is an
>outgrowth of how one is oriented in one's beliefs...IMO and experience
>
>>>>
>>>>Underlying this technobabble I think I am on topic... these gadgets are
>>>>energy systems.
>>>
>>>I absolutely know that this is the case...my first years in computers I
>>>noted that the night shift people in the computer rooms had few or no
>>>problems during their shift, but the day people were always in
>>>crisis...what I found was that the night people were usually students in
>>>school and they studied at night thus they didn't want to be interrupted,
>>>but the day people's job was the computer ergo they spent an inordinate
>>>amount of time correcting *mistakes*...I know the service guy use to tell
>>>me to stay out of the computer room because everytime I was in there
>>>something blew...fun to think about
>>>
>>>Judith
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Walter
>>>>
>>N: Perhaps I am getting my 'just desserts' (hold the cheese cake) for having
>>suggested to a religious fundamentalist with no acquaintancy with Jung, but
>>who recently came on the Jung List, that he read Answer to Job.  (Certainly
>>my negative aniumus is telling me I am getting justice for something...
>>everything, perhaps.)
>
>Ah the justice thang...
>
>more to think about
>Judith
>>
>>Preserve us all from 'our just desserts',
>>Nancy
>>>>
>>>>__________________________________________________________________
>>>>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>>>>
>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>
>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:59:27 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Somatization
In-Reply-To:  <v01550110b29a92fd4074@[207.54.160.14]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:53:32 -0500 you
wrote:

>When my mother had cancer she called me (early 70's) and we began to work
>with meditation...she found the book written by peole I think in Ft Worth
>working with terminal cancer patients and began to use their guided
>imagery...her counts dramatically shifted and the presence of lukemia
>disappeared...the doctor couldn't explain what was happening...blaming
>himself interestingly enuf...she lived 7 years which was unheard of
>then...can we attribute her extending her life to meditation and guided
>imagery...now we can because they are using these techniques in
>hospitals...we all have annecdotal experiences

Spontaneous remissions happen.  They happen to people who are "living right" and
they happen to people who are "evil."  They happen in all stages of illness, for
unknown reasons.

If you're more attuned to your body, instead of ignoring it, you will probably
treat it better --know when to stop and go to bed, know when fresh air feels
good -- and your body will probably have more of a chance to regenerate itself.
But it's not a given.

Body health can affect mental health.  It's not always that "being happy" makes
us healthy.  Sometimes being healthy makes us happy, and the body gearing up to
fight something can generate the positive chemicals that make us more cheerful.
Making the connection backwards to "being cheerful makes you well" is logically
incorrect.  Those people who do not choose to try to be cheerful to get well are
just as likely to be unable to make those happy chemicals because they're not
getting well.

The big pit here is that if your body is unable to produce these happy
chemicals, for whatever reason, you feel as if you are a failure not only for
being sick but also for not being able to cure yourself by being happy.  How
useful of a cure would that be for depression?

-JoAnne

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:34:09 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,
Luciding as I grappled with the ideas...thank you...

>Nancy
>
>A few quick words... in the midst of a too hectic time for me.
>
>>   I find 'shame' a difficult emotion (?) with which to get in touch.  I
>> wonder why all the analysis and therapy I've had wouldn't prevent this
>> somatization.  I guess we all have a lot to learn.
>
>Someone mentioned Louise Hay whose philosophy i dislike.  She implies that
>dealing with the underlying emotions will cure illness.  My brother when
>grappling with aids hung onto "Louise" as a straw.

I mentioned her Walter...I never got from her that the illness would be
cured necessarily...what I got from her work was that one could participate
in one's healing instead of giving control to the physician...how people
took that into feeling of failure is a time in the process of moving into a
new way of viewing illness...the physical was a manifestation of an issue
which could be called psyche...anything simplistic which gives direct cause
and effect from a linear perspective doesn't get to the whole issue...IMO
>I think the metaphor inherent in illness may shed light on the psyche,
>hence the illness may be a teller, a window into the soul.  Hence we may
>truly come to love the disease which reveals so much.  Healing not cure.
Exactly in my case...as I loved my tumor...out of my health crisis has come
enormous learning and an orientation to what lingers as physical
reality...it is still teaching me

judith running to her next moment

>
>>   I wondered, Walter, if you were not at some level making some of these
>> connections when you brought up '(in)visibility'.  If you verbalized the
>> transition, I somehow missed it.
>
>Connections spring out at me and I noted one about closed spaces and the
>womb corresponding (in the old fashioned psychic sense) to the changes in
>the list.  I had not thought of invisibility but your link makes sense to
>me.
>
>>   I'm not sure how much use this is to the group in general, but it is my
>> understanding that this is one of the reasons why we closed the List (became
>> invisible to the viewing public?)
>
>What reason are you thinking of here?  The two changes are not really a
>"closing", though the word does fit... the archives are members only and
>new members join with more visibility to the participants.
>
>I know i mentioned "closed" but I am about to announce Psyber-L in various
>places, and expect more participants to be here soon.
>
>Walter
>Enjoying the discussions
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:51:16 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Somatization

Hi JoJo, Good to hear from you again.  I don't know the statistics, but
most of what you say makes a lot of sense to me

On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:59:27 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:

>Hello Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:53:32 -0500 you
>wrote:
>
>>When my mother had cancer she called me (early 70's) and we began to work
>>with meditation...she found the book written by peole I think in Ft Worth
>>working with terminal cancer patients and began to use their guided
>>imagery...her counts dramatically shifted and the presence of lukemia
>>disappeared...the doctor couldn't explain what was happening...blaming
>>himself interestingly enuf...she lived 7 years which was unheard of
>>then...can we attribute her extending her life to meditation and guided
>>imagery...now we can because they are using these techniques in
>>hospitals...we all have annecdotal experiences
>
>Spontaneous remissions happen.  They happen to people who are "living right" and
>they happen to people who are "evil."  They happen in all stages of illness, for
>unknown reasons.
>
>If you're more attuned to your body, instead of ignoring it, you will probably
>treat it better --know when to stop and go to bed, know when fresh air feels
>good -- and your body will probably have more of a chance to regenerate itself.
>But it's not a given.
>
>Body health can affect mental health.  It's not always that "being happy" makes
>us healthy.  Sometimes being healthy makes us happy, and the body gearing up to
>fight something can generate the positive chemicals that make us more cheerful.
>Making the connection backwards to "being cheerful makes you well" is logically
>incorrect.  Those people who do not choose to try to be cheerful to get well are
>just as likely to be unable to make those happy chemicals because they're not
>getting well.
>
>The big pit here is that if your body is unable to produce these happy
>chemicals, for whatever reason, you feel as if you are a failure not only for
>being sick but also for not being able to cure yourself by being happy.  How
>useful of a cure would that be for depression?

N: Yes.  This certainly does touch on my delimma.  (I'm afraid I tend to
interpret such advice as an attempt on the advisor's part to push the issue
away, not hear about it any more.  This may be 'Ol neg animus' doing again.)
>
>-JoAnne
>
N: By the way, while I've got your attention, 'they' replaced my modem
last week.  Today I have been disconnected 14 times.  The tech at my isp
wants me to believe that it's static on my phone line (which is there, but
was checked by phone co before modem replacement)  Does this sound plausable
to you (or anyone else on the list)?
  Maybe if I could make my computer laugh......?
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:57:46 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Somatization
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi JoAnne,

>Hello Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:53:32 -0500 you
>wrote:
>
>>When my mother had cancer she called me (early 70's) and we began to work
>>with meditation...she found the book written by peole I think in Ft Worth
>>working with terminal cancer patients and began to use their guided
>>imagery...her counts dramatically shifted and the presence of lukemia
>>disappeared...the doctor couldn't explain what was happening...blaming
>>himself interestingly enuf...she lived 7 years which was unheard of
>>then...can we attribute her extending her life to meditation and guided
>>imagery...now we can because they are using these techniques in
>>hospitals...we all have annecdotal experiences
>
>Spontaneous remissions happen.  They happen to people who are "living
>right" and
>they happen to people who are "evil."  They happen in all stages of
>illness, for
>unknown reasons.
In my opinion it doesn't have to do with *living right* or *evil*...I'm
just interested in exploring the connections and possible reasons...in my
illness I experienced huge revelations about my physical body and its
intelligence and impetus...just reading a journal entry from then...I can
only speak of my own body experience...however, there are studies going on
here in Cleveland at a couple of the hospitals around prayer, guided
imagery, and meditation...at least they are doing the research


>
>If you're more attuned to your body, instead of ignoring it, you will probably
>treat it better --know when to stop and go to bed, know when fresh air feels
>good -- and your body will probably have more of a chance to regenerate itself.
>But it's not a given.

I agree...and my experience with my recovery continues to baffle the MDs
where I go...the latest doctor told my lung doctor he doesn't know how I am
keeping dis ease free...I keep doing the energy work and eating organic and
keeping the toxins limited except for my one glass of red wine and giving
prayers of gratitude...something is at work...
>
>Body health can affect mental health.  It's not always that "being happy" makes
>us healthy.  Sometimes being healthy makes us happy, and the body gearing up to
>fight something can generate the positive chemicals that make us more cheerful.
>Making the connection backwards to "being cheerful makes you well" is logically
>incorrect.  Those people who do not choose to try to be cheerful to get
>well are
>just as likely to be unable to make those happy chemicals because they're not
>getting well.

Exactly...I agree with the logic...
>
>The big pit here is that if your body is unable to produce these happy
>chemicals, for whatever reason, you feel as if you are a failure not only for
>being sick but also for not being able to cure yourself by being happy.  How
>useful of a cure would that be for depression?

I think this is a case of incorrect framing...it is about *participation*
in the dis-ease process...western medicine has been about the doctor having
the *cure* and the patient going to the doctor and not taking
responsibility for their participation...my first visit with my lung doctor
when I spoke of my part in the healing process said *that's for me to do,
not you* and I said *I'm not giving up my responsibility*...there was no
way I was giving myself over to him...we finally found a way to work
together using the best of his contribution and my own ways...I think it is
simplistic to think that *happy* is the cure...it becomes a bandaid over
the real issue which is fear of dying which is embedded in our US
culture...I don't have a fear of dying... my fear was of living a life with
a degenerative illness...so the highest leverage point for me was to probe
the fear...this was one of the techniques my mother used effectively to
live through her fear...I find it all fascinating but then I live with it
24 hours a day in my life

Good to hear from you...
Judith
>
>-JoAnne
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:47:27 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
In-Reply-To:  <v01550114b29c7528b451@[207.54.160.14]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,

> >Someone mentioned Louise Hay whose philosophy i dislike.  She implies that
> >dealing with the underlying emotions will cure illness.  My brother when
> >grappling with aids hung onto "Louise" as a straw.
>
> I mentioned her Walter...I never got from her that the illness would be
> cured necessarily...what I got from her work was that one could participate
> in one's healing instead of giving control to the physician...

That sounds like a valuable inspiration... I am sorry if by launching into
Louise Hay I have put you on the defensive regarding the processes you are
going through in your healing.  I trust your knowing as being the best for
you, and I know you are careful not to prescribe it for others.  I guess
simply her name bought up some stuff for me... my story and that of my
connection with my brother... with my feelings to the fore.

I was looking at the shadow side of the family dynamics, something he never
did.  He hated hearing about my difficulties or what he took as my
criticism of the family.  I saw him as in denial, while seeking to cure
himself with positive thinking, affirmations and so on.  I was probably
arrogant enough to think i knew better!  At the same time I spent time with
him and avoided telling him what I thought he should do.  What a messy
time, messy relationship, painful and difficult time for me, him and all
concerned, especially my then 83 year old father, who did a lot of the
caring.

All this was about 7 years ago. It comes up for me with these conversations
about somatization.

> Exactly in my case...as I loved my tumor...out of my health crisis has come
> enormous learning and an orientation to what lingers as physical
> reality...it is still teaching me

I don't think my brother learnt a lot from his illness... I don't think I
learnt a lot... perhaps it is my projection onto him.

There are a few wise things he said as he died.  My father was protesting
and saying it should be him that was dying not his son. Hugh said that the
moment of death is a big step and that it felt irrelevant how many years he
had prior to it, that the number was irrelevant, just a number.

Conscious that I have not had good experiences around the death of family
or friends... bothered by that.


Walter
reluctantly allowing these memories to be here.


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:34:31 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes nancy still thinking and I'm not experiencing your movement as
pushing...I just need to collect some data which I have been doing while I
make milk weed paper for a commissioned photo album...process process
process
more later
judith

>Judith, Are you still thinking? (Don't mean to push.)
>  I had another what I might call 'negative animus' experience this morning.
>  I woke angry (galled?) and decided to try 'Focusing'.  My stomach felt
>upset.  Soon an idea (later so as to be more understandable) popped into
>my mind.
>  Yesterday an old friend called.  Among other things we talked of how
>'mature' children seem to turn on parents when something else going wrong
>in their lives.  She told me a story of going to stay with a new friend.
>the friend's son called and apparently did just that (30 yrs worth). Then
>the friend turned on my friend and displaced the whole thing on her!
>   While I was focusing the idea was 'could I have done that when whe was
>staying with me some 20 yrs. ago?'  I don't actually belief that this could
>have been the case, but this smacks of the 'negative animus'' sneaky little
>ways of trying to keep a woman 'under his thumb' by exagerating every little
>thing into "you always fail", "what a worthless $#% you are."  Not very
>useful when trying to heal or shake off depression.
>    Perhaps you don't have such experiences.  I'd be interested in anything
>you (or others) might have to say about how to do soul work under these
>conditions.
>
>   Nancy
>
>
>On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:47:48 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>
>>Nancy,
>>I want to give your thoughts more thot and I'm off to help a new person get
>>her photography studio organized...hummm
>>
>>That said...
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Dec 1998 10:21:18 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Nancy, Walter, all
>>>>
>>>>Wishing you an easeful recovery...these past times it seems what I pray for
>>>>is easefulness...I open to the lessons but since I believe in cocreation, I
>>>>want to learn easefully...I wonder what gallstones mean? I mean beyond the
>>>>physical...
>>>
>>>N: Yes.  I'd given that some thought also.  It seems that all the pathes it
>>>leads me down are pretty shadowy, or as someone said recently, 'that's your
>>>depression talking.'  I wonder how much I should 'entain' the 'voice of my
>>>depression'?  I know that Jung felt that 'staying with' a depression could
>>>lead you out on the other side to a wiser place.  But it seems to me there
>>>may be a difference between 'staying with' and 'entertaining'.  To me the
>>>latter feels like 'welcoming the negative animus with open arms'.  Rather
>>>dangerous wouldn't you think?  I'd be interested in feedback from any who
>>>might be interested in offering it.  Somehow this sort of 'welcoming'
>>>wouldn't
>>>be what I would expect you to advise or emplement for yourself, Judith, but
>>>perhaps I'm wrong?
>>My wondering Nancy is that if your depression is the winter light issue or
>>if low light exacerbates it...my next wondering is what your process is to
>>*learn*...and how aware you are of this ala the Focusing book...I do know
>>that the way to the *other side* is through it, but that requires a process
>>of being in it, in relationship to it, and timing...currently I am holding
>>a huge soul evoluation issue, but I don't feel equipped to go into it by
>>myself (which is my usual way using my own process)...since the person who
>>can assist me (using an energy process) isn't available until next week,
>>I've shelved it...just my way however it sounds as if the highest leverage
>>point is *process* which is a very personal thing...and how your hold what
>>is going on...
>>
>>Nancy...
>>>
>>>
>>>are you familiar with Louise Hay's stuff...
>>>
>>>N: No.  I don't know her.  Might you share a little of her basic tenants?
>>>I do feel that a good look at the metaporical
>>>aspects of illnesses is useful (though tricky).  I wonder what you might
>>>have learned from yours?
>>
>>I don't have the book that lists all manner of physical conditions and what
>>she would call the *spiritual* issue associated with it as well as the
>>affirmations for each...I'll have to locate it...
>>
>>>
>>>   At the moment I am carry back to Simon and my discussion of 'stick and
>>>stones..."  Do you suppose that the 'words that never hurt you.' might
>>>eventually become the gallstones which might indeed hurt one physically?
>>>
>>>just gently offering
>>>>my perspective...I don't advocate it for anyone except me,however,
>>>>sometimes a different logical level can unlock learning thru the
>>>>juxtaposition...but of course I may be *galling* (grin)...
>>>>>Nancy
>>>>>
>>>>>N:> They replaced the modem today, but while it
>>>>>> isn't completely unresponsive today, a lot of the old problem seem to be
>>>>>> reoccurring.  I don't know what to try next.
>>>
>>>N: I just discovered today that all the mail while I was gone immediately
>>>came into Eudora Light which I had never activated and which will not let
>>>me reply.  I guess I might wax pretty metaphorical about that, too, if I
>>>didn't have so many concete (stones again?) problems to deal with.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I hope your health is mending more successfully than your modem.
>>>
>>>N: Yes, I also, and have had no evidence to the contrary.
>>>
>>> I have an
>>>>>aquaintance who comes around to fix my machine and we were saying the other
>>>>>day that it is no longer possible to be totally rational about computers.
>>>>>The art of fixing them is more like medicine, there is a process of trial
>>>>>and error and sometimes things work or not without us knowing why exactly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>A friend had a problem with their PC and got an expert in, and I thought it
>>>>>would be interesting to see how they fixed it... I would have just
>>>>>reinstalled Windows, which seems to be the cheapo fix it I try first.  That
>>>>>is exactly what they did!
>>>
>>>N: Yes.  During the 80 hours I spend before my 'in home, extended warrantee
>>>people' could be persuaded to come and replace the moden, different techs
>>>had me run Windows 95 'quick restore' 4 times.  Once because the lst tech
>>>forgot to tell me to disconnect the printer and the third time because that
>>>tech wouldn't let me disconnect it when I suggested it.
>>>
>>>  True, Judith, there is a lot going on which might 'rise the bile' and make
>>>me bitter.
>>
>>It certainly is a place to start...I don't know anatomy so I can't recall
>>the function of the gallbadder... I find it useful to examine my
>>relationship to what my *creation* story is...and what part I might be
>>engaged with shifting...this gets into how one assumes the universe
>>*works*...and bitterness as well as other things like regret is an
>>outgrowth of how one is oriented in one's beliefs...IMO and experience
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Underlying this technobabble I think I am on topic... these gadgets are
>>>>>energy systems.
>>>>
>>>>I absolutely know that this is the case...my first years in computers I
>>>>noted that the night shift people in the computer rooms had few or no
>>>>problems during their shift, but the day people were always in
>>>>crisis...what I found was that the night people were usually students in
>>>>school and they studied at night thus they didn't want to be interrupted,
>>>>but the day people's job was the computer ergo they spent an inordinate
>>>>amount of time correcting *mistakes*...I know the service guy use to tell
>>>>me to stay out of the computer room because everytime I was in there
>>>>something blew...fun to think about
>>>>
>>>>Judith
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Walter
>>>>>
>>>N: Perhaps I am getting my 'just desserts' (hold the cheese cake) for having
>>>suggested to a religious fundamentalist with no acquaintancy with Jung, but
>>>who recently came on the Jung List, that he read Answer to Job.  (Certainly
>>>my negative aniumus is telling me I am getting justice for something...
>>>everything, perhaps.)
>>
>>Ah the justice thang...
>>
>>more to think about
>>Judith
>>>
>>>Preserve us all from 'our just desserts',
>>>Nancy
>>>>>
>>>>>__________________________________________________________________
>>>>>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>>>>>
>>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>>
>>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:14:10 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,

>Judith,
>
>> >Someone mentioned Louise Hay whose philosophy i dislike.  She implies that
>> >dealing with the underlying emotions will cure illness.  My brother when
>> >grappling with aids hung onto "Louise" as a straw.
>>
>> I mentioned her Walter...I never got from her that the illness would be
>> cured necessarily...what I got from her work was that one could participate
>> in one's healing instead of giving control to the physician...
>
>That sounds like a valuable inspiration... I am sorry if by launching into
>Louise Hay I have put you on the defensive regarding the processes you are
>going through in your healing.

Egad...communication style again...I didn't experience your words as
putting me on the defensive...wonder what it is about how I say what I say
that leads to this? I'd like the feedback...I do think it has something to
do with my energy returning and *putting it out there* so to speak...but
there must be something I'm not seeing so I'm open...that said an
interesting connection

I went for my morning cappacinno and a publication around healing and stuff
had Louise Hay's picture on the cover...inside the article said that the
book she wrote "You can Heal Yourself" which lists illness and pysical
conditions...anyway in it she says that this information was
*channeled*...meaning she received the information from somewhere other
than her own consciousness...this is akin to the process Edgar Casey got
for all his medical information...

What is interesting is that she had cancer which she said was a real test
of her philosophies she was teaching..." to help her body rid itself of the
cancer she did visualizations 15 minutes a twice a day...did lots of
affirmations and I read everything I could find on cancer and alternative
methods of healing...I did not talk about it.There were only two people who
knew.I did not want to be told I was doing the wrong thing because I
refused conventional treatment...I worked with a nutritionist and did a
cleanings and did everything I was told. I learned a lot and I never went
back to my old ways of eating...when I got to the point where I knew the
cancer was healed, I went to a different medical doctor and got medical
confirmation that the cancer was gone...I wasn't trying to proved anything
to anybody"

The key for me is that years before she became involved in the Church of
REligious Science so she has a belief structure and a process.

> I trust your knowing as being the best for
>you, and I know you are careful not to prescribe it for others.  I guess
>simply her name bought up some stuff for me... my story and that of my
>connection with my brother... with my feelings to the fore.

Interesting I would pull her name out...I don't have any of her
books...just used the list of illnesses and the associations.
>
>I was looking at the shadow side of the family dynamics, something he never
>did.  He hated hearing about my difficulties or what he took as my
>criticism of the family.  I saw him as in denial, while seeking to cure
>himself with positive thinking, affirmations and so on.  I was probably
>arrogant enough to think i knew better!  At the same time I spent time with
>him and avoided telling him what I thought he should do.  What a messy
>time, messy relationship, painful and difficult time for me, him and all
>concerned, especially my then 83 year old father, who did a lot of the
>caring.
>
>All this was about 7 years ago. It comes up for me with these conversations
>about somatization.
My own thinking is that you two had different paths and different ways of
being in the world which serves each of those...and certainly different
experiences
>
>> Exactly in my case...as I loved my tumor...out of my health crisis has come
>> enormous learning and an orientation to what lingers as physical
>> reality...it is still teaching me
>
>I don't think my brother learnt a lot from his illness... I don't think I
>learnt a lot... perhaps it is my projection onto him.
>
>There are a few wise things he said as he died.  My father was protesting
>and saying it should be him that was dying not his son. Hugh said that the
>moment of death is a big step and that it felt irrelevant how many years he
>had prior to it, that the number was irrelevant, just a number.

Wasn't that a learning? maybe he didn't learn from his illness but maybe he
learned from his dying...a very close friend died of AIDS a few years back
and I was astounded how he went through the dying process...what a gift he
gave to me as I experienced his leaving...his condition took very unusual
medical turns which gave the doctors alot of research data...one day he
said he was through and had enuf and 6 weeks later he was gone in an
amazingly elegant way...

>
>Conscious that I have not had good experiences around the death of family
>or friends... bothered by that.

I don't know about your country's process but we in the US are really
coming up against this in relation to the heroic medical stuff available
and the Kovorkian assisted death stuff...a real issue and
conflict...stemming IMO from a fear of dying, letting anything die, for me
it is about letting go of the holding on

Wish I had words to assist Walter...isn't it a deep psyche issue? don't know...
>
>
>Walter
>reluctantly allowing these memories to be here.

Judith stepping lightly she said hopefully :-)
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:15:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Somatization
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998121520515318@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:51:16 -0500, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:

>Hi JoJo, Good to hear from you again.  I don't know the statistics, but
>most of what you say makes a lot of sense to me

It's not absolute; people can affect their healing by attitude, but it's sort of
synergistic.  The body has to cooperate, has to be well enough to provide the
happy chemicals in the first place.

>>The big pit here is that if your body is unable to produce these happy
>>chemicals, for whatever reason, you feel as if you are a failure not only for
>>being sick but also for not being able to cure yourself by being happy.  How
>>useful of a cure would that be for depression?
>
>N: Yes.  This certainly does touch on my delimma.  (I'm afraid I tend to
>interpret such advice as an attempt on the advisor's part to push the issue
>away, not hear about it any more.  This may be 'Ol neg animus' doing again.)

I think I know what you mean, but let me restate it so you can tell me if I'm
right.  When you hear people tell you to cure yourself, by being happy, you
think they are trying to avoid the issue of your real pain and illness.

I honor your intuition, Nancy; if you're feeling that, I think you might just be
right.  People can come up with all kinds of ways to hide their real feelings,
even from themselves, and pretending to be helpful while pointing you to the
exit is one of them.

I've been seeing too much of this recently, and there must be some reason for
it; people blaming everything but real normal aging and the fallibility of human
bodies for disease and disability.  People get older, wear out, have more
difficulty, and don't want to believe this is normal, but it is.  People would
rather think that Monsanto Chemical is filling us with toxins that make life in
the 20th (soon to be 21st) century is the worst ever.

People are unhappy with life as responsibilities and realizations of mortality
weigh on them, and they don't want to believe it's themselves that change; it
must be that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, conspiracies have
fouled the landscape that was once pristine (when they were about 5 or so), and
they're all out to get us.  Losing Santa Claus is painful; losing faith in
humanity is worse, and it's easier to pretend that there's some evil genius
stroking his Persian cat and plotting our destruction than it is to think that
we live in a hotbed of imperfection and foolishness and futility.

Blaming the victim is particularly unpleasant, and it gives quacks the "out"
they need if their faith cures don't work...you didn't believe enough, you
weren't good with your diet, you don't have the right "attitude."

>N: By the way, while I've got your attention, 'they' replaced my modem
>last week.  Today I have been disconnected 14 times.  The tech at my isp
>wants me to believe that it's static on my phone line (which is there, but
>was checked by phone co before modem replacement)  Does this sound plausable
>to you (or anyone else on the list)?

Not very, if you didn't have this problem before.  Are you using the same phone
cable that you used with the old modem?  Check the connections on each end, and
if they're good and tight and you still have a problem, replace the cable if you
have a spare (or you can probably get one from the store for a dollar or so;
it's just a regular phone cable).

>  Maybe if I could make my computer laugh......?

Maybe it's already laughing, just not charitably.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:15:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Somatization
In-Reply-To:  <v01550116b29c7966b38c@[207.54.160.14]>
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On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:57:46 -0500, you, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>,
wrote:

>Hi JoAnne,
>
>>Hello Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>, on Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:53:32 -0500 you
>>wrote:
>>
>>>When my mother had cancer she called me (early 70's) and we began to work
>>>with meditation...she found the book written by peole I think in Ft Worth
>>>working with terminal cancer patients and began to use their guided
>>>imagery...her counts dramatically shifted and the presence of lukemia
>>>disappeared...the doctor couldn't explain what was happening...blaming
>>>himself interestingly enuf...she lived 7 years which was unheard of
>>>then...can we attribute her extending her life to meditation and guided
>>>imagery...now we can because they are using these techniques in
>>>hospitals...we all have annecdotal experiences
>>
>>Spontaneous remissions happen.  They happen to people who are "living
>>right" and
>>they happen to people who are "evil."  They happen in all stages of
>>illness, for
>>unknown reasons.
>In my opinion it doesn't have to do with *living right* or *evil*...I'm
>just interested in exploring the connections and possible reasons...in my
>illness I experienced huge revelations about my physical body and its
>intelligence and impetus...just reading a journal entry from then...I can
>only speak of my own body experience...however, there are studies going on
>here in Cleveland at a couple of the hospitals around prayer, guided
>imagery, and meditation...at least they are doing the research

I think the results will be interesting, and I accept that they could go either
way.  I don't say there's no role of attitude in healing, just that it can be
overstressed, just as the role of the doctor as the magic healer is usually
overstressed.

In either case the decision is the patient's, though as in your case as you
describe below carrying it out can be difficult.

I think many doctors are actually quite tired of being the "cure-bearer" and
probably most are unwilling to be the all-powerful all-knowing demigod some
people expect.  When the doctor shows his or her human frailty, the patient who
holds him as a god casts him down from the pedestal, only to look for something
to replace him with.

>>If you're more attuned to your body, instead of ignoring it, you will probably
>>treat it better --know when to stop and go to bed, know when fresh air feels
>>good -- and your body will probably have more of a chance to regenerate itself.
>>But it's not a given.
>
>I agree...and my experience with my recovery continues to baffle the MDs
>where I go...the latest doctor told my lung doctor he doesn't know how I am
>keeping dis ease free...I keep doing the energy work and eating organic and
>keeping the toxins limited except for my one glass of red wine and giving
>prayers of gratitude...something is at work...

I'm encouraged by your good health.  If you were to become more sick, I wouldn't
consider this a sign of "wrongness" with you, other than you might be upset
about your illness.

>>Body health can affect mental health.  It's not always that "being happy" makes
>>us healthy.  Sometimes being healthy makes us happy, and the body gearing up to
>>fight something can generate the positive chemicals that make us more cheerful.
>>Making the connection backwards to "being cheerful makes you well" is logically
>>incorrect.  Those people who do not choose to try to be cheerful to get
>>well are
>>just as likely to be unable to make those happy chemicals because they're not
>>getting well.
>
>Exactly...I agree with the logic...
>>
>>The big pit here is that if your body is unable to produce these happy
>>chemicals, for whatever reason, you feel as if you are a failure not only for
>>being sick but also for not being able to cure yourself by being happy.  How
>>useful of a cure would that be for depression?
>
>I think this is a case of incorrect framing...it is about *participation*
>in the dis-ease process...western medicine has been about the doctor having
>the *cure* and the patient going to the doctor and not taking
>responsibility for their participation...my first visit with my lung doctor
>when I spoke of my part in the healing process said *that's for me to do,
>not you* and I said *I'm not giving up my responsibility*...there was no
>way I was giving myself over to him...

Excellent!  I'm glad you had the energy to do that.

>we finally found a way to work
>together using the best of his contribution and my own ways...I think it is
>simplistic to think that *happy* is the cure...it becomes a bandaid over
>the real issue which is fear of dying which is embedded in our US
>culture...I don't have a fear of dying... my fear was of living a life with
>a degenerative illness...so the highest leverage point for me was to probe
>the fear...this was one of the techniques my mother used effectively to
>live through her fear...I find it all fascinating but then I live with it
>24 hours a day in my life

That's something I have been dealing with in various ways.  My mother was in the
hospital in October with a stroke and a heart attack, and I had the same fears
that I had about my father when he was in the hospital (he died six years ago
after many trips in previous years for heart problems).  Having been through it,
and having had a friend go through some problems with his father just recently,
I remembered a few things I learned from then.

I can't control what happens but I am able to run through rehearsals in my mind,
and that's what my mind will try to do, and now I just let it, because if I
don't, the thoughts come back underground, and in scary ways in dreams and such.
So I let my mind rehearse what to do if I got to the hospital and found out she
just died, I think what everyone will do when she dies, who will have to be
notified, how things will have to be arranged.  It's not morbid, it's not a wish
that these things will happen.  It's a small degree of control for an
essentially uncontrollable situation.

Mom is home now and doing well (after a scare that resulted in a change in
medication and subsequently her seeming much more like her old self).  We make
plans for things further in the future than tomorrow now.  We're discussing New
Year's plans and maybe Las Vegas in February.

>Good to hear from you...

Thanks Judith!  I've been a bit thin in participating here lately...

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:59:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Somatization
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,


>Judith,
>
>Thank you for your thoughtful response - although the idea that you were
>'falling on your sword" "bothered" me. The 'non-theatric' side of me
>said, (rather dryly) "well, noone asked you to do that, my dear". I hope
>you hear my droll tone.

Certainly do:-)
>
>This discussion and your response has stirred up some things - old
>frustations of, yes, I agree, new age 'ignorance' and also  issues of
>being misunderstood, the limitations of this medium, maybe the desire of
>really wanting connect with someone around these kinds of issues and
>discussions and feeling thwarted, and on and on and on. I haven't read
>much of Ken Wilbur because his writing has been too "philosophical' for
>me - I was a philosphy major in college and feel I let that "approach" to
>looking at life go many years ago - although from what I understand
>people feel he is brillant, etc etc. (an aside, a little odd in light of
>this discussion - his wife, before she died of breast cancer, and I had
>the same MD in Mill Valley - a wonderful and good doctor who I was sorry
>to leave behind when I moved here).
>
>Anyway, I appreciate your response - it wasn't easy for me to speak up in
>such a (loud? - it *felt* loud to me because I had to take a deep breath
>and plunge ahead to *say* it) manner because I knew the danger of being
>misunderstood. I have more to say but have to get ready for work.

There is a lot of people steping up to the plate and speaking their truth
around me and it *feels* good to me...it is my belief that we *feel* what
is truthfully going on when a person speaks which is often confusing with
what is being said...recently I spoke my truth to a man friend in my
life...I didn't get the response I thot I was wanting, however, what I did
get is the *freed* thing as in The truth will set you free...I hold a
constant intention to speak my truth (read *my* not *the*) as I know it at
the time and hold the right to change it when new awareness comes in...so
when you get your move in done, I'm interested in continuing the discussion
>
>I received the keys to my new house yesterday and will be very very
>occupied (np pun intended!) with getting ready to move in. It's the
>biggest Christmas present I've ever received although it came with the
>instructions *some assembly required*. Now the work begins.

Presents are great to get! Enjoy the assembling
Judith running to her papermaking
>
>Cheryl
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:07:23 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Somatization

On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:15:41 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Dec 1998 20:51:16 -0500, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:
>
>>Hi JoJo, Good to hear from you again.  I don't know the statistics, but
>>most of what you say makes a lot of sense to me
>
>It's not absolute; people can affect their healing by attitude, but it's sort of
>synergistic.  The body has to cooperate, has to be well enough to provide the
>happy chemicals in the first place.

N: That, too, makes sense.  Like you, I will be interested to see what
studies on the subject produce (as well as just how they are conducted.)
>
>>>The big pit here is that if your body is unable to produce these happy
>>>chemicals, for whatever reason, you feel as if you are a failure not only for
>>>being sick but also for not being able to cure yourself by being happy.  How
>>>useful of a cure would that be for depression?
>>
>>N: Yes.  This certainly does touch on my delimma.  (I'm afraid I tend to
>>interpret such advice as an attempt on the advisor's part to push the issue
>>away, not hear about it any more.  This may be 'Ol neg animus' doing again.)
>
>I think I know what you mean, but let me restate it so you can tell me if I'm
>right.  When you hear people tell you to cure yourself, by being happy, you
>think they are trying to avoid the issue of your real pain and illness.

N: You are very close, but I'd like to make a few distinctions.  As far as
I know, no one 'enjoys' depression, yet I would suppose almost everyone
has experienced it.  Also 'mood' is 'communicable'.  Thus I feel that most
people 'shun' the uprising of these feelings in themselves.  They do not
want to 'catch' the depression of another, or, to put it another way they
don't want the potential depression within themselves to become activated.
  I most cases I would not suppose that it is there 'intent' (either conscious
or unconscious) to 'shun' or 'abandon' the outer depressed other.
Yet, in a sense, that is what seems to occur.
  I believe empathy is a great 'healer'.  Yet genuine empathy requires
that one find, stay with, and speak from that part (pain, depression)
within themselves and that they first treat than inner part with
compassion.
   When I write it out this way I see that really this is asking a good
deal.  I also find that I am grateful to you, Jojo, for giving me the
opportunity to do this.  I'm likely to 'stand in need' of this clarity
in the week and a half to come.  It came more easily to me to do this
myself this summer, than it does at present.
   There are ways that the 'abandoning' of a sufferer can be enacted.
Giving advice (as opposed to sharing related experiences) is one of them
I guess this is one of the reasons 'advice' or 'directiveness' is not
favored by Jungian analysts.  Detachment is another, and I'm sure there
are many more.

>
>I honor your intuition, Nancy; if you're feeling that, I think you might just be
>right.  People can come up with all kinds of ways to hide their real feelings,
>even from themselves, and pretending to be helpful while pointing you to the
>exit is one of them.

N: In light of the insights you prompted me to express above, I would
ammend 'to hide their real feelings' to 'to hide from their real feelings';
although it is true that an overlay may quickly come into being such as
on hearing a depresed person...:'ouch! I don't want to go there! This
person is 'making' me go there.  How can I get out of this?'  And perhaps
'advice', 'detachment', a distraction, or some such follows.  But it
the 'real feeling' is to get off the spot with oneself.
>
>I've been seeing too much of this recently, and there must be some reason for
>it; people blaming everything but real normal aging and the fallibility of human
>bodies for disease and disability.  People get older, wear out, have more
>difficulty, and don't want to believe this is normal, but it is.  People would
>rather think that Monsanto Chemical is filling us with toxins that make life in
>the 20th (soon to be 21st) century is the worst ever.
>
N; Yes.  I might call this the 'sociological' aspect or level
of a similar response.
The third in my string above (beginning with 'ouch!') might be called the
'parannoyed' step, which seems to be where the 'blaming' comes in.

>People are unhappy with life as responsibilities and realizations of mortality
>weigh on them, and they don't want to believe it's themselves that change; it
>must be that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, conspiracies have
>fouled the landscape that was once pristine (when they were about 5 or so), and
>they're all out to get us.  Losing Santa Claus is painful; losing faith in
>humanity is worse, and it's easier to pretend that there's some evil genius
>stroking his Persian cat and plotting our destruction than it is to think that
>we live in a hotbed of imperfection and foolishness and futility.
>
>Blaming the victim is particularly unpleasant, and it gives quacks the "out"
>they need if their faith cures don't work...you didn't believe enough, you
>weren't good with your diet, you don't have the right "attitude."

N: I guess the inner feeling defended in the above is that one is helpless,
or that one needs to reexamine one's own believe system.
>

COMPUTERS:
>>N: By the way, while I've got your attention, 'they' replaced my modem
>>last week.  Today I have been disconnected 14 times.  The tech at my isp
>>wants me to believe that it's static on my phone line (which is there, but
>>was checked by phone co before modem replacement)  Does this sound plausable
>>to you (or anyone else on the list)?
>
>Not very, if you didn't have this problem before.

N: Like the gallstones, the computer ill have been progressive.  Most of
the messages and some of the 'disconnects' were probably occurring before.
I'd hoped the new modem would cure this but it didn't seem to.  Seven
error messages (along with disconnects) continue to reoccur frequently.
(Though there's been nary a one during this first hour this morning!
Perhaps you've brought me 'luck' (?))

> Are you using the same phone
>cable that you used with the old modem?  Check the connections on each end, and
>if they're good and tight and you still have a problem, replace the cable if you
>have a spare (or you can probably get one from the store for a dollar or so;
>it's just a regular phone cable).

N: I'm using the same phone jack (and there is some static on the phone.)
I carefully checked all wires involved between jack and computer and
replaced two (for 'fraying' and a damaged whatchacall the little plastic
clip?)
>
>>  Maybe if I could make my computer laugh......?
>
>Maybe it's already laughing, just not charitably.
>
>-JoAnne
>
N: You mean it's bee laughing 'diabolically'.  You remind me of my
nephew's empathetic statement that they too have an 'advesorial relationship
with their computer.
   If I were sure all or much of this lay with the isp, I now have a solution.
I just heard that Mind Spring now has a new toll - free line into my town.
But I hesitate to carry 'old problems' into a 'new relationships'.

   Thanks for your help, suggestions and inspiration,

   Nancy

____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:29:49 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Somatization
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998121811080346@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:07:23 -0500, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:15:41 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:
>
>>I think I know what you mean, but let me restate it so you can tell me if I'm
>>right.  When you hear people tell you to cure yourself, by being happy, you
>>think they are trying to avoid the issue of your real pain and illness.
>
>N: You are very close, but I'd like to make a few distinctions.  As far as
>I know, no one 'enjoys' depression, yet I would suppose almost everyone
>has experienced it.  Also 'mood' is 'communicable'.  Thus I feel that most
>people 'shun' the uprising of these feelings in themselves.  They do not
>want to 'catch' the depression of another, or, to put it another way they
>don't want the potential depression within themselves to become activated.
>  I most cases I would not suppose that it is there 'intent' (either conscious
>or unconscious) to 'shun' or 'abandon' the outer depressed other.
>Yet, in a sense, that is what seems to occur.
>  I believe empathy is a great 'healer'.  Yet genuine empathy requires
>that one find, stay with, and speak from that part (pain, depression)
>within themselves and that they first treat than inner part with
>compassion.
>   When I write it out this way I see that really this is asking a good
>deal.

This names a consequence I hadn't quite thought of myself, that the thing you're
asking may be too much for some, and running away consciously or unconsciously
is likely to occur.  I mean, I guess I had that in the back of my mind, but
didn't say it, so it wasn't conscious...I guess I suffer from that "not wanting
to know" thing often enough.  I'm not always the most empathetic ear, if it
means real empathy.  It takes a lot out of me.

>I also find that I am grateful to you, Jojo, for giving me the
>opportunity to do this.  I'm likely to 'stand in need' of this clarity
>in the week and a half to come.  It came more easily to me to do this
>myself this summer, than it does at present.
>   There are ways that the 'abandoning' of a sufferer can be enacted.
>Giving advice (as opposed to sharing related experiences) is one of them
>I guess this is one of the reasons 'advice' or 'directiveness' is not
>favored by Jungian analysts.  Detachment is another, and I'm sure there
>are many more.

Probably as many ways as there are people.

>>I honor your intuition, Nancy; if you're feeling that, I think you might just be
>>right.  People can come up with all kinds of ways to hide their real feelings,
>>even from themselves, and pretending to be helpful while pointing you to the
>>exit is one of them.
>
>N: In light of the insights you prompted me to express above, I would
>ammend 'to hide their real feelings' to 'to hide from their real feelings';
>although it is true that an overlay may quickly come into being such as
>on hearing a depresed person...:'ouch! I don't want to go there! This
>person is 'making' me go there.  How can I get out of this?'  And perhaps
>'advice', 'detachment', a distraction, or some such follows.  But it
>the 'real feeling' is to get off the spot with oneself.

Hmm.. define "get off the spot" for me, I'm not sure I get this.

>>I've been seeing too much of this recently, and there must be some reason for
>>it; people blaming everything but real normal aging and the fallibility of human
>>bodies for disease and disability.  People get older, wear out, have more
>>difficulty, and don't want to believe this is normal, but it is.  People would
>>rather think that Monsanto Chemical is filling us with toxins that make life in
>>the 20th (soon to be 21st) century is the worst ever.
>>
>N; Yes.  I might call this the 'sociological' aspect or level
>of a similar response.
>The third in my string above (beginning with 'ouch!') might be called the
>'parannoyed' step, which seems to be where the 'blaming' comes in.

I like that.. you come up with wonderful words.  Parannoyed instead of paranoid.

>>People are unhappy with life as responsibilities and realizations of mortality
>>weigh on them, and they don't want to believe it's themselves that change; it
>>must be that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, conspiracies have
>>fouled the landscape that was once pristine (when they were about 5 or so), and
>>they're all out to get us.  Losing Santa Claus is painful; losing faith in
>>humanity is worse, and it's easier to pretend that there's some evil genius
>>stroking his Persian cat and plotting our destruction than it is to think that
>>we live in a hotbed of imperfection and foolishness and futility.
>>
>>Blaming the victim is particularly unpleasant, and it gives quacks the "out"
>>they need if their faith cures don't work...you didn't believe enough, you
>>weren't good with your diet, you don't have the right "attitude."
>
>N: I guess the inner feeling defended in the above is that one is helpless,
>or that one needs to reexamine one's own believe system.

Yes, I think that's right.  The belief system is too simple or limited in some
way, and now faces complex questions it can't handle.

>>Maybe it's already laughing, just not charitably.
>>
>N: You mean it's bee laughing 'diabolically'.

Another great typo, Nancy, one of your great gifts.  A bee laughing
diabolically.  Stinging you when it gets the chance.  Small and quick.  You
don't have something striped sitting on the cable or something do you?  Just a
thought.

>You remind me of my
>nephew's empathetic statement that they too have an 'advesorial relationship
>with their computer.
>   If I were sure all or much of this lay with the isp, I now have a solution.
>I just heard that Mind Spring now has a new toll - free line into my town.
>But I hesitate to carry 'old problems' into a 'new relationships'.

Sometimes unavoidable.

>   Thanks for your help, suggestions and inspiration,

You're very welcome.

-JoJo

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:13:55 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
In-Reply-To:  <v01550119b29d5c2cbdb8@[207.54.160.14]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,

> Egad...communication style again...I didn't experience your words as
> putting me on the defensive...wonder what it is about how I say what I say
> that leads to this?

Maybe my miss reading? Perhaps my fear that it should come to debate around
these things rather than a sharing of experience ... I was apologising for
my quick and casual response to the mention of Louise Hay & my fear that I
could tigger that.



You comment on my brother & I :

> My own thinking is that you two had different paths and different ways of
> being in the world which serves each of those...and certainly different
> experiences

Very different!  Always difficult for us.

> >There are a few wise things he said as he died.  My father was protesting
> >and saying it should be him that was dying not his son. Hugh said that the
> >moment of death is a big step and that it felt irrelevant how many years he
> >had prior to it, that the number was irrelevant, just a number.
>
> Wasn't that a learning? maybe he didn't learn from his illness but maybe he
> learned from his dying...

Oh yes, I was just changing my mind as I wrote.  It was not a peaceful
moment and there was not really acceptance... perhaps my learning is to is
still to get more respect for him and the process he went through?

> >Conscious that I have not had good experiences around the death of family
> >or friends... bothered by that.
>
> I don't know about your country's process but we in the US are really
> coming up against this in relation to the heroic medical stuff available
> and the Kovorkian assisted death stuff...a real issue and
> conflict...stemming IMO from a fear of dying, letting anything die, for me
> it is about letting go of the holding on

All much the same here, though we hear about more extremes from over there.


> Wish I had words to assist Walter... isn't it a deep psyche issue? don't know...

I'm not sure either... I have a sense of us sharing some interesting
stuff... the whole discussion of Energy Systems and Somatisation is
interesting to me and I love the reflection on how these things tie in with
the process right here... always the question on my mind.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:45:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Somatization

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:29:49 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:07:23 -0500, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:15:41 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:
>>
>>>I think I know what you mean, but let me restate it so you can tell me if I'm
>>>right.  When you hear people tell you to cure yourself, by being happy, you
>>>think they are trying to avoid the issue of your real pain and illness.
>>
>>N: You are very close, but I'd like to make a few distinctions.  As far as
>>I know, no one 'enjoys' depression, yet I would suppose almost everyone
>>has experienced it.  Also 'mood' is 'communicable'.  Thus I feel that most
>>people 'shun' the uprising of these feelings in themselves.  They do not
>>want to 'catch' the depression of another, or, to put it another way they
>>don't want the potential depression within themselves to become activated.
>>  I most cases I would not suppose that it is there 'intent' (either conscious
>>or unconscious) to 'shun' or 'abandon' the outer depressed other.
>>Yet, in a sense, that is what seems to occur.
>>  I believe empathy is a great 'healer'.  Yet genuine empathy requires
>>that one find, stay with, and speak from that part (pain, depression)
>>within themselves and that they first treat than inner part with
>>compassion.
>>   When I write it out this way I see that really this is asking a good
>>deal.
>
>This names a consequence I hadn't quite thought of myself, that the thing you're
>asking may be too much for some, and running away consciously or unconsciously
>is likely to occur.  I mean, I guess I had that in the back of my mind, but
>didn't say it, so it wasn't conscious...I guess I suffer from that "not wanting
>to know" thing often enough.  I'm not always the most empathetic ear, if it
>means real empathy.  It takes a lot out of me.

N: I feel we all handle this with different degrees of ease depending on
subject and/or person and perhaps our past exchanges with a given person.
Certainly empathizing with another on a subject we have 'well worked
through' for ourselves is easier than one that may lie farther from
consciousness within ourselves (especially one we may feel defensive
about.)
>
>>I also find that I am grateful to you, Jojo, for giving me the
>>opportunity to do this.  I'm likely to 'stand in need' of this clarity
>>in the week and a half to come.  It came more easily to me to do this
>>myself this summer, than it does at present.
>>   There are ways that the 'abandoning' of a sufferer can be enacted.
>>Giving advice (as opposed to sharing related experiences) is one of them
>>I guess this is one of the reasons 'advice' or 'directiveness' is not
>>favored by Jungian analysts.  Detachment is another, and I'm sure there
>>are many more.
>
>Probably as many ways as there are people.
>
>>>I honor your intuition, Nancy; if you're feeling that, I think you might just be
>>>right.  People can come up with all kinds of ways to hide their real feelings,
>>>even from themselves, and pretending to be helpful while pointing you to the
>>>exit is one of them.
>>
>>N: In light of the insights you prompted me to express above, I would
>>ammend 'to hide their real feelings' to 'to hide from their real feelings';
>>although it is true that an overlay may quickly come into being such as
>>on hearing a depresed person...:'ouch! I don't want to go there! This
>>person is 'making' me go there.  How can I get out of this?'  And perhaps
>>'advice', 'detachment', a distraction, or some such follows.  But it
>>the 'real feeling' is to get off the spot with oneself.
>
>Hmm.. define "get off the spot" for me, I'm not sure I get this.
>
>N: Just shortening what I'd said above, i.e. avoiding getting in touch
with our own 'sore spots' and staying with them to to express true empathy.

>>I've been seeing too much of this recently, and there must be some reason for
>>>it; people blaming everything but real normal aging and the fallibility of human
>>>bodies for disease and disability.  People get older, wear out, have more
>>>difficulty, and don't want to believe this is normal, but it is.  People would
>>>rather think that Monsanto Chemical is filling us with toxins that make life in
>>>the 20th (soon to be 21st) century is the worst ever.
>>>
>>N; Yes.  I might call this the 'sociological' aspect or level
>>of a similar response.
>>The third in my string above (beginning with 'ouch!') might be called the
>>'parannoyed' step, which seems to be where the 'blaming' comes in.
>
>I like that.. you come up with wonderful words.  Parannoyed instead of paranoid.

N: At least I know the 'reason' this time.  When 'blaming' occurs within
one in relation to one other, I like to refer to inner entity involved as
Mr Pair-annoyed (a form of the negative animus who seeks to divide one
from another.)  Apparently when I 'decided' not to complicate our dialog
with this personal invention, only part of me went along with the
decision.
>
>>>People are unhappy with life as responsibilities and realizations of mortality
>>>weigh on them, and they don't want to believe it's themselves that change; it
>>>must be that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, conspiracies have
>>>fouled the landscape that was once pristine (when they were about 5 or so), and
>>>they're all out to get us.  Losing Santa Claus is painful; losing faith in
>>>humanity is worse, and it's easier to pretend that there's some evil genius
>>>stroking his Persian cat and plotting our destruction than it is to think that
>>>we live in a hotbed of imperfection and foolishness and futility.
>>>
>>>Blaming the victim is particularly unpleasant, and it gives quacks the "out"
>>>they need if their faith cures don't work...you didn't believe enough, you
>>>weren't good with your diet, you don't have the right "attitude."
>>
>>N: I guess the inner feeling defended in the above is that one is helpless,
>>or that one needs to reexamine one's own believe system.
>
>Yes, I think that's right.  The belief system is too simple or limited in some
>way, and now faces complex questions it can't handle.
>
>>>Maybe it's already laughing, just not charitably.
>>>
>>N: You mean it's bee laughing 'diabolically'.
>
>Another great typo, Nancy, one of your great gifts.  A bee laughing
>diabolically.  Stinging you when it gets the chance.  Small and quick.  You
>don't have something striped sitting on the cable or something do you?  Just a
>thought.

N: No 'stripy stuff' around.  Perhaps it was the (i)n I was avoiding, not
wanting to admit the 'diabolically' in me being projected on the computer?


>
>>You remind me of my
>>nephew's empathetic statement that they too have an 'advesorial relationship
>>with their computer.
>>   If I were sure all or much of this lay with the isp, I now have a solution.
>>I just heard that Mind Spring now has a new toll - free line into my town.
>>But I hesitate to carry 'old problems' into a 'new relationships'.
>
>Sometimes unavoidable.
>
>>   Thanks for your help, suggestions and inspiration,
>
>You're very welcome.
>
>-JoJo
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1998 08:06:45 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Our Discusssion
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

How do these things (Energy Systems and Somatization) tie in with our
dicusssion right here? I don't see anything as yet although I'm curious
and would love to see what you see.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Dec 1998 02:04:28 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Somatization
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998121909461953@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hello Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, on Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:45:40 -0500 you
wrote:

>>>N: You mean it's bee laughing 'diabolically'.
>>
>>Another great typo, Nancy, one of your great gifts.  A bee laughing
>>diabolically.  Stinging you when it gets the chance.  Small and quick.  You
>>don't have something striped sitting on the cable or something do you?  Just a
>>thought.
>
>N: No 'stripy stuff' around.  Perhaps it was the (i)n I was avoiding, not
>wanting to admit the 'diabolically' in me being projected on the computer?

Are you feeling diabolical?

-Jojo

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:34:09 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Somatization

On Sun, 20 Dec 1998 02:04:28 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:

>Hello Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, on Sat, 19 Dec 1998 09:45:40 -0500 you
>wrote:
>
>>>>N: You mean it's bee laughing 'diabolically'.
>>>
>>>Another great typo, Nancy, one of your great gifts.  A bee laughing
>>>diabolically.  Stinging you when it gets the chance.  Small and quick.  You
>>>don't have something striped sitting on the cable or something do you?  Just a
>>>thought.
>>
>>N: No 'stripy stuff' around.  Perhaps it was the (i)n I was avoiding, not
>>wanting to admit the 'diabolically' in me being projected on the computer?
>
>Are you feeling diabolical?

N: Gosh,I hope not.  The tenses are now scrambled.   What was present tense
is now past; what is present tense is now different.
  What I have been feeling all along, I think, is inwardly 'at war' trying
to preserve some contact with the 'good me' against the constant attacks
of a denigrating 'negative animus.'  Yesterday didn't help.  It was my
daughter's official graduation.  Present were my daughter's boy friend,
his mother (whom I had never met) and her father (my ex).  The latter was
the perfect personification in a very subtle way.  So that's were I am now.
  So is that feeling 'diabolical'? Or under seige?

  Nancy
>
>-Jojo
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1998 08:59:58 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Happy Holidays
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

To all,
I'm off to holiday with my son and his soon to be fiance for a family
celebration, the first one I've had in 10 years so I'm very excited...I
wish everyone here blessings for this season and a mysterious New Years...

Judith filling with joy

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:08:21 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Our Discusssion
In-Reply-To:  <367BCF15.6AB7@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl, All,

> How do these things (Energy Systems and Somatization) tie in with our
> dicusssion right here? I don't see anything as yet although I'm curious
> and would love to see what you see.

I may be taking it too far, but I see a connection between simply the word
"somatisation"  and the meeting we do here in a place that might not even
exist as such.  Somatisation must be of interest to a group who meet
without bodies.

The theme of how our thoughts and ideas influence our physical beings or
vice versa, is analogous to how our presence here in might relate to the
real world and even begs the question of what is real.

I am on holidays at last! In the Sounds in a bach with friends.  Have been
away from my machine for a couple of days.  I've been reading printouts
from a mailing list I enjoy at times: Philip Agre's "Red Rock Eater" here
is a quote that I found interesting food for thought (to add to the body /
mind musings)

"Cyberspace, in other words, does not exist.  The Internet does exist,
and so do a lot of other technologies, and even more technologies are
on the way, and the adoption of those technologies will eventually
bring major changes to the world.  The point, however, is that neither
the technologies nor the changes are well described as the creation of
a distinct, separate, autonomous pseudo-place that could reasonably be
called "cyberspace". "

Of course I think cyberspace *does* exist.  I hope he does not mind me
quoting it here... you can see his full post

To: "Red Rock Eater News Service" <rre@lists.gseis.ucla.edu>
Subject: [RRE]notes and recommendations
From: Phil Agre <pagre@alpha.oac.ucla.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 16:34:56 -0800 (PST)

The archives are at:

http://commons.somewhere.com/rre/index.html


I have also been reading Mark Pesce again:

"Proximal and Distal Unities" by MARK D. PESCE

In this article he claims that the new superhuman body of the Noosphere as
predicted by Teilhard De Chardin is here, that the development of the World
Wide Web signifies its existence.

It is almost impossible to read

http://www.hyperreal.org/~mpesce/pdu.html

~~~

So as you can see Cheryl my mind wanders far and wide, thinking about what
is real, what influences what, the relationship between these virtual
spaces and existing entities, and I think we are in the same territory as
the more immediate health related questions which explore the relation of
attitude to the body.

Less grand though still far fetched perhaps, I think that the "entity" of
Psyber-L has significantly changed with the few minor changes to our
protocol.  Perhaps there is a connection there as well.

Of course my speculations are not intended to distract from the immediate
value of the discussions themselves, especially as they are so related the
well being of people here.  I hope that the wider more speculative musings
of mine might shed some light on the whole somatisation question and lead
us into better health!

Cheryl, Thanks for asking the question...



Walter
On the InterIsland Ferry, on our way to my brother in law's place for
Christmas.














__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:08:31 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Psyber-L Developments
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998121509473157@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy, All,

I am replying to:

  Re: Energy Systems
  Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:47:30 -0500


> N: Have I misunderstood something?  I thought that what we wrote could no
> longer be viewed my non-members (I'm a little uncertain at what age a post
> becomes an archive).  And that one of the reasons for this change was to
> allow a greater safety in presenting personal material.
>   I meant 'closed' to the public view (i.e. non-members)

That is right, non-members can't get to the archives.  And yes I think the
reason you cite is certainly the main one.  So I don't think we had our
wires crossed, we just thought we did.

I think archives is the wrong word for what we have.  I have been calling
it a Web Interface lately. This list can be accessed from the web with even
the very latest posts in place.  The Lsoft software insists on calling it
an archive.

~~~

> >I know i mentioned "closed" but I am about to announce Psyber-L in various
> >places, and expect more participants to be here soon.
>
> N: I did understand you planned to do this, but perhaps the reminder is
> well placed.

I have made the submission to NEW LIST the one that has had a big impact
here before.  The owner is away on holiday till Jan 4, so it won't be
posted till then.

>    I'm trying now to recall what your reasons exactly were for making these
> changes. (?) You did speak of temenos, I think. (?)

Temenos is the word!  The other reason is this:

Psybernet is a larger project of mine which includes all of my work.
Recently I have begun to see my ordinary face to face psychotherapy as part
of it as well.  I now incorporate email into the therapy work with selected
suitable clients.  I also do consulting work:

   http://www.psybernet.co.nz/p_c.htm

I want a mailing list associated with my work and Psyber-L is not really
it.  The reason is that it is so specialised and personal.  I value it
enormously, but it has never really worked as the front door or foyer for
Psybernet. I made the mistake of thinking of it as such.  I think it will
do much better as a more private and personal place.  Now there is also
room for me to develop a more magazine style Psybernet mailing list which I
hope will have many more readers and will also enhance this Psyber-L, by
placing it in the larger context.

> PS  I did go back and find your post so that I could take another look at
> the introductory material (my experience is that 'you can get 'there' from
> 'here'.)

Not sure what you mean by the sentence in parenthesis.

> I guess it was the 'larger lettering' which made it look darker.
> The contrast is still less thank black on white and people wanting to print
> may have to set their printers for 'gray' tone, thus I would prefer a plain
> white background for the material proper.  The colorful alchemical tree
> tapestry against which no print is present is a lovely esthetic.

I have now made it black on white... leaving only a remnant of the orange
which I was fond of.  I think it is more readable this way:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/psyber-l.htm

Another page which i have done in the same format is:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/psycho.htm

What do you think?  Shall I change them all?


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:20:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Developments

On Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:08:31 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:

>Nancy, All,
>
>I am replying to:
>
>  Re: Energy Systems
>

>
>I think archives is the wrong word for what we have.  I have been calling
>it a Web Interface lately. This list can be accessed from the web with even
>the very latest posts in place.  The Lsoft software insists on calling it
>an archive.
>-----
N: 'current posts (or dialog) and achives'?
>~~~
>

>
>>    I'm trying now to recall what your reasons exactly were for making these
>> changes. (?) You did speak of temenos, I think. (?)
>
>Temenos is the word!  The other reason is this:
>
>Psybernet is a larger project of mine which includes all of my work.
>Recently I have begun to see my ordinary face to face psychotherapy as part
>of it as well.  I now incorporate email into the therapy work with selected
>suitable clients.  I also do consulting work:
>
>   http://www.psybernet.co.nz/p_c.htm
>

>> PS  I did go back and find your post so that I could take another look at
>> the introductory material (my experience is that 'you can get 'there' from
>> 'here'.)
>
>Not sure what you mean by the sentence in parenthesis.
----
N: Oh, dear.  Here I go showing my ignorance again!  Expect when you post
the 'clickable' addresses, I don't know how to find my way back to the
introductory material.  I used to have it from my own joining, but now that
I've had to scrub my disk 4 times, I don't.
>
>> I guess it was the 'larger lettering' which made it look darker.
>> The contrast is still less thank black on white and people wanting to print
>> may have to set their printers for 'gray' tone, thus I would prefer a plain
>> white background for the material proper.  The colorful alchemical tree
>> tapestry against which no print is present is a lovely esthetic.
>
>I have now made it black on white... leaving only a remnant of the orange
>which I was fond of.  I think it is more readable this way:

N: Yes, I feel it is more readable though, I too, liked the color esthethically.
Perhaps you might incorporated the green heading that exist on one page
when/if you redo the others.  The yellow/orange (?) notation blocks add an
additional note of color which does not distract from the main body of the
reading matter.
>
>http://www.psybernet.co.nz/psyber-l.htm
>
>Another page which i have done in the same format is:
>
>http://www.psybernet.co.nz/psycho.htm
>
>What do you think?  Shall I change them all?
---
N: Guess I vote 'yea' with the exceptions noted above (i.e. large green
headers and yellow notation blocks [logos?].
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:40:54 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Depression
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,
I'm offering this perspective as a response to our exchange...Probing
within my own experience for possible insight...I relate this in some
detail because my process is embedded in the experience...
I've been focused on an issue which emerged for me a few weeks back and
have been following it within my own life to see how it has been
playing...I called it self-cruelty...one of the processes I use is to work
with a woman who is a medical intuitive...I wanted to explore what the
spiritual source of the pain in my right shoulder and particularly the
knots which were in the muscles of my right bicep and the growths which are
occuring on the tendons in my right hand particularly...I was pursuing this
while working with a physical therapist, having Rikie treatments, and deep
muscular massage work...nothing was budging it and the pain has persisted

I was looking to explore these questions:
1)what was the source of my acts of self cruelty
2)could this be tied in some way to my earlies recollection as a child of
feeling there was something very wrong with me, manifesting later through
my teens as an inferiority complex (which interestingly abated once I
oriented to Buddahism)
3)since the pain occurs on my right side and this is the *masculine* I
wanted to see what this might reveal
4)and finally how much of my experience was mine personally and how much
was this the (and I'll use a term we've spoken of here) collective psyche
(meaning what part was my empathicness playing)

Prior to the session I began taking specific action based in my new
awareness of the concept *self cruelty*...I used this as a template around
the choices I am making in the moment, those small actions which appear
insignificant but when viewed illuminate a pattern...I had already
experienced significant release and was in a time of wonderfully deep
joyousness...all this done I was ready for my session

We began by talking about my revulsion...that somehow *I* was connected to
unspeakable acts...and my fascination since childhood of the Holicaust...as
I was relating my life long feelings she said that the blocked energy in my
right bicep was beginning to unwind (since the session there is
considerable change in the knots in my biceps)...indicating that I was on
the right track...as we worked energetically we spoke of my empathicness...

She related this story which connected many *dots* for me...

She went to the Dali Lama's conference in Washington DC and the first night
the rimpoche who wrote the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying was
teaching...he said that when he first came to the US 20 years ago he was
completely baffled by Americans...he couldn't understand what was going on
with them...then later he came to the information...he said Americans have
a deep sense of *self-loathing* and that this is continuously playing
out...he said he couldn't relate to this because there is nothing in the
Tibetan world like this...primarily because of how they are oriented in
their life

This story brought me a huge insight...I was looking at the issue of
*self-cruelty* but was not seeing the underlying cause which is in fact
*self-loathing*...my response to this had been to short circuit positive
paths in my life except as it related to me serving...interestingly I had
made a conscious decision during my health crisis contemplation to hold my
self interest and my service to the universe in equality and in reciprocity
and had been pursuing that with interesting difficulty in holding
self-interest...a certain unidentifable fear kept rising whenever I took
action for self...the fear became identified in an amazing way to me...as I
examined past patterns of self interest I found that there was a sort of
*bar* that I could go up to with my self interest but if I went *over* the
bar there was always a self cruel act, sort of a punishment...so I tested
this pattern and sure enuf when I embraced the theatre opportunity in my
totality, the fear appeared and for 2 weeks I was in a battle with it...the
fear driving me to exacerbate my creating and thus sabatage the outcome,
the performance...I had intentionally loaded this experience with all that
I am, amping the stakes...and me holding the fear and fighting with my
clear intention to serve my self...finding the *self cruelty* illuminated
the fear and once it was in my consciousness the fear once named
abated...and I manifested all that I had dreamed could be possible with the
opportunity

Now all this said, I now am holding the data about *self loathing* and my
empathicness and the existence of this in our culture's deep psyche and
seeing what I learn...one of the immediate learnings was how this was
playing out with a person in my life...I've shared this with him and he is
finding the same dynamic playing throughout his life...the interesting part
is how it has played between us in the name of goodness...

So, Nancy, I offer my experience and learnings from a perspective of your
depression and your INFPness and ask the question for you (which doesn't
include an expectation or asking you to share your considerations BTW): how
much is you and how much is you *channelingtransmuting* for the collective
psyche?

Judith in thinkingness and blessings for illumination

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:40:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Somatization
In-Reply-To:  <36a734dd.76411437@mail.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne



>  Losing Santa Claus is painful; losing faith in
> humanity is worse, and it's easier to pretend that there's some evil genius
> stroking his Persian cat and plotting our destruction than it is to think that
> we live in a hotbed of imperfection and foolishness and futility.

Just wanted to pick up on these few lines, which sum up graphically the
question of the existence of an evil force...

It seems this question has been coming up in conversations around me a lot
in the last few weeks.

What if it *is* Old Nick working to mess up our discussions and blowing up
our computers (mine just before the wedding) and disconnecting Nancy's.

A little like messing up our bodies when we get ill?

Jung, Scott Peck believe in Evil... Rudolf Steiner has a wonderful array of
devils...

I don't really, though when I lump together our "hotbed of imperfection and
foolishness and futility" *metaphorically* I would be most happy to be able
to name the particular devil making the mischief.  Just as we have Indra as
the goddess of the net we might have some Lucifer blowing it up!

Must re-read the next few posts which mention the "diabolical" wit a little
more care...


Walter
In the midst of pre Christmas family furore looking forward to the week in
the hills with Kate.

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:39:39 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Developments
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998122210200718@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

> >I think archives is the wrong word for what we have.  I have been calling
> >it a Web Interface lately. This list can be accessed from the web with even
> >the very latest posts in place.  The Lsoft software insists on calling it
> >an archive.

> N: 'current posts (or dialog) and achives'?

I am not able to change what it says on the actual page of the "archives".
In my writing I say Psyber-L is "by email" and has a web interface -- quite
internetty mouths full, yet accurate and simple enough.  Dialogue is a
great word and fits beautifully here.  I might use it in the "description"
next time I fiddle with it & can find the right place.


> >Psybernet is a larger project of mine which includes all of my work.
> >Recently I have begun to see my ordinary face to face psychotherapy as part
> >of it as well.  I now incorporate email into the therapy work with selected
> >suitable clients.  I also do consulting work:
> >
> >   http://www.psybernet.co.nz/p_c.htm
> >
>
> >> PS  I did go back and find your post so that I could take another look at
> >> the introductory material (my experience is that 'you can get 'there' from
> >> 'here'.)
> >
> >Not sure what you mean by the sentence in parenthesis.
> ----
> N: Oh, dear.  Here I go showing my ignorance again!  Expect when you post
> the 'clickable' addresses, I don't know how to find my way back to the
> introductory material.  I used to have it from my own joining, but now that
> I've had to scrub my disk 4 times, I don't.

The URL above goes to a Consulting page...

> >> I guess it was the 'larger lettering' which made it look darker.
> >> The contrast is still less thank black on white and people wanting to print
> >> may have to set their printers for 'gray' tone, thus I would prefer a plain
> >> white background for the material proper.  The colorful alchemical tree
> >> tapestry against which no print is present is a lovely esthetic.
> >
> >I have now made it black on white... leaving only a remnant of the orange
> >which I was fond of.  I think it is more readable this way:
>
> N: Yes, I feel it is more readable though, I too, liked the color esthethically.
> Perhaps you might incorporated the green heading that exist on one page
> when/if you redo the others.  The yellow/orange (?) notation blocks add an
> additional note of color which does not distract from the main body of the
> reading matter.

Yes, I have had other positive feed back and have changed a few more pages.
They will all get done in the end... this is about the fourth or fith style
change.  I think it is getting better.


Walter





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1998 07:40:23 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      What to Call This?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello list people,

The longer I participate in this list- from before and now- the more I am
coming to realize that I am not such a fan of discussion. This is
interesting to me to observe in myself and I realize that it is something
that is both a little unusual and apt to be immediately and perhaps
widely, misunderstood. I am beginning to see MOST (again I wish for
italics and not bold emphasis) discussion as so much spinning of wheels -
as a kind of mental masturbbation (to quote Fritz Perls). Now I can see
so many peole immediately on the defensive.... yes, but, yes, but.....

Of course discussion does at time help people understand each other and
yes of course discussion is a kind of "lifeblood" of the community - I
see those things and am not an advocate of doing away with it. Please
read what I am saying carefully, friends. It is just that, as an
individual thing, I seem to be turning towards valuing silence more - a
kind of deep silence, a prayer-full silence even. I can't really explain
this. I just hear so much chatter around me that seems useless and
perhaps even harmful - it's almost as if it bounces off my ears . And yet
I realize that much of it is about peole's need to have others confirm
their reality - to see things as they do = perhaps even this little post
of mine is in that vein - to put my reality out there in a discusssion
format - to be heard- etc etc. Still, I value stillness, silence, deep
reflection, quietness. That's one nice thing about a "discussion" such as
this, it is very "quiet". I say that alittle tongue in cheek for those
who may not catch my humor.

I am often up very early in the morning and I value that quiet time so
much _ I'm glad to be able to sit a little inthe stillness. This is just
something I wanted to "say".   :)

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:15:02 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Depression

Dear Judith,
   Thank you for your careful remarks on your own experience of depression.
I have printed them out to give as careful attention.  More later.

   Blessings on you all as we go our separate ways for this holiday season.

   Nancy

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:50:12 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What to Call This?
In-Reply-To:  <36810EE7.1CF5@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,

I'm in sympathy with you.

Discussion, dialogue, the loop of self-expression, (whatever you wish to
call it), is necessary and inhabits a spectrum that on one end is profound,
humbling connection and on the other end is the playing out of 'automatic'
primitive habits. Still, a complex phenomena...this sharing of reflections!

Silence, quiet: undervalued. It, too, on a continuum; do you feel? There's
the quiet when we are left with our own thoughts and reflections, such
mental risings are sometimes the ripples of habit, other times blazingly
creative; yet, possible also is experience of a seemingly transcendent
quietude.

I think also of the isolation tank, where one may float and hear immediatly
the deafening sound of solitude!

***

bright moments to all,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:26:58 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Developments
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, Nancy,

I like the change to black and white on the web pages - to my mind they now
look simpler, cleaner, more appealing. Maybe now you could get rid of those
yucky brown and tan colours altogether, Walter! (just my own preference
though)

Simon

Btw the Psybernet Links page has a small typo which breaks the link to the
Psyber-L Mailing List page, Walter - one of the slashes in the address is
the wrong way round (how easily these things can slip in, eh).

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1998 04:07:54 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      making some links
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Quantum Tantra:
http://bbs.cruzio.com/~quanta/qtantra1.html

Language and the sensuous: Spelling our way back into nature
(review of David Abram, 'The Spell of the Sensuous'):
http://www.tnews.com/text/language_sensuous.html

Cyberactivism and Citizenship: The Planet's Emerging Immune System:
http://www.tnews.com/text/cyberactivism.html

The Case Against the Global Economy:
http://www.tnews.com/text/Against_the_GlobaLEconomy.html

Deepak Chopra: Integrating Western and Eastern Medicine:
http://www.tnews.com/text/chopra.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1998 08:48:03 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Making some links
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon,

Thnaks for your reading suggestions - not much time right now to follow
up - I'm spending the holidays with a paint brush and roller in my hands.
I've bought quite a small house but it seems to have an awful lot of
walls.

I used to be quite a reader but along with jabbering away all the time,
reading is another activity that has sort of fallen away in the last few
years. One of the reasons I think is similiar to what I was saying
yesterday - I really HEAR dualistic language and it really does seem to
want to bounce off my ears - language is quite problematic with respect
to the topics you've suggested for reading. Still, I'll give it a whirl
when I have a chance.

Have a lovely holidays - is it cold or warm where you live? I seem to
think you are a Kiwi but I'm not sure sure - could be English also. It's
bitterly cold here - well below zero every night lately.

Ho, ho, ho.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:21:44 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      christmas wishes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Psyber-l folks,

May you have a happy and relaxing Christmas, and may the New Year be a
healthy and rewarding one for you.

1999 here we come!

my best wishes to you all, and see you in the new year,

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1998 17:18:29 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Making some links
In-Reply-To:  <36827043.39C2@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Cheryl,

Sounds like you're going to have a fun time. How exciting to be starting
somewhere afresh, and putting a fresh lick of paint up on the walls! Well,
lots of paint by the sound of it :) Good luck!

Re language being problematic: the David Abram review is interesting in
this respect.

I live in the UK, Cheryl. At the moment the weather is fairly mild - lots
of drizzling rain, though. No white Christmas this year, it would seem.

seeya,

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 24 Dec 1998 21:16:54 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Have a good Christmas & New Year
In-Reply-To:  <36827043.39C2@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

I am soon away for a week or more, walking and camping in the Tongariro
National park.

Here is Christmas morning, warm, quiet while the others have gone to
church.  We had the Christmas dinner last night, apparently a Danish
tradition from my sister in law's side of the family.

Good wishes to all of us in Psyber-L and I am looking forward to an
interesting last year of the millennium, interesting everywhere, and
certainly here as we continue our dialogue.

Love to all,

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Dec 1998 19:28:07 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy Systems
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, thanks for your response

>Judith,
>
>> Egad...communication style again...I didn't experience your words as
>> putting me on the defensive...wonder what it is about how I say what I say
>> that leads to this?
>
>Maybe my miss reading? Perhaps my fear that it should come to debate around
>these things rather than a sharing of experience ... I was apologising for
>my quick and casual response to the mention of Louise Hay & my fear that I
>could tigger that.

I think you have really verbalized a significant point in how we
communicate particularly here...debate and experience...good for me to
contemplate...I have never been a debater...and more and more I offer my
own experience as fodder for the conversation...my own way is to engage the
ideas and play...food for thot
>

>You comment on my brother & I :
>
>> My own thinking is that you two had different paths and different ways of
>> being in the world which serves each of those...and certainly different
>> experiences
>
>Very different!  Always difficult for us.

It is my belief that we are in a time of moving into a more complex
thinking about birth families and one's specific relationship to that...my
sister and I have very different orientations to our family (mother and
father both dead) and completely different ways of being which exacerbates
any attempt at relationship...it is what it is for me...I find it all
fascinating particularly because I chose to adopt and not continue the
blood lineage through me...a real bifracation point...something I continue
to research through my experience
>
>> >There are a few wise things he said as he died.  My father was protesting
>> >and saying it should be him that was dying not his son. Hugh said that the
>> >moment of death is a big step and that it felt irrelevant how many years he
>> >had prior to it, that the number was irrelevant, just a number.
>>
>> Wasn't that a learning? maybe he didn't learn from his illness but maybe he
>> learned from his dying...
>
>Oh yes, I was just changing my mind as I wrote.  It was not a peaceful
>moment and there was not really acceptance... perhaps my learning is to is
>still to get more respect for him and the process he went through?

or maybe not...I do think it is often illuminating to follow through from
someone's elses journey and see the patterns and unfoldings...

>
>> >Conscious that I have not had good experiences around the death of family
>> >or friends... bothered by that.
>>
>> I don't know about your country's process but we in the US are really
>> coming up against this in relation to the heroic medical stuff available
>> and the Kovorkian assisted death stuff...a real issue and
>> conflict...stemming IMO from a fear of dying, letting anything die, for me
>> it is about letting go of the holding on
>
>All much the same here, though we hear about more extremes from over there.
>
>
>> Wish I had words to assist Walter... isn't it a deep psyche issue? don't
>>know...
>
>I'm not sure either... I have a sense of us sharing some interesting
>stuff... the whole discussion of Energy Systems and Somatisation is
>interesting to me and I love the reflection on how these things tie in with
>the process right here... always the question on my mind.

I see this as relevant here as a probing into that which is not seen...it
expands into *what* is going on? beyond the *why* it is going on...seeking
to tickle out knowing from the experiences of each person here and our
individual focus as it relates to the collective...if nothing else I *know*
that each experiences life in differentshared ways...and then my wondering
is how this is moving the collective psyche...my healer always asks in
class what one's cutting edge is...not sure what mine is after the health
crisis but it always was to expand my field of awareness to go beyond what
I knewfelt...but then I'm an explorer...I didn't relate to much history but
my favorite people were the explorers...

BTW Walter I have had very moving experiences with AIDS...in the early 80's
I did a show called The Normal Heart by Larry Kramer who early on tried to
get NYC to see what was going on...the first doctor (German woman) who was
treating people coming to her was loudly trying to get the NYC medical
people to see also (you Americans have such a problem with sex, she kept
saying)...I played her in the play and it was a challenge to speak the
lines particularly to know there were people in the audience with AIDS and
say "you f...you die" ...the director created a gorilla theatre environment
and put it on at the Cleveland Playhouse the citidel of money and
position...he arranged to have talks after each performance...back then
AIDS was only known to be a gay condition...we were to play for 4 weeks but
packed the theatre and extended 3 more...it brought people together in an
amazing way...One 86 year old woman a Board of Trustee member of the
theatre pulled herself up on her walker and gave an impassioned speech
about how we needed to see this as a disease of all of us and that to
ignore it was going to imperil humankind...it was stunning...to have had
the priviledge of being in the experience was such a gift and is the
wonderment of theatre

Blessings,
Judith
>Walter
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 25 Dec 1998 19:36:27 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: making some links
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Simon,
many thanks...something to explore...I'm particularly interested in
"Spelling our way back into nature" give my prowess :-) in this area

Happy New Year
Judith

>Quantum Tantra:
>http://bbs.cruzio.com/~quanta/qtantra1.html
>
>Language and the sensuous: Spelling our way back into nature
>(review of David Abram, 'The Spell of the Sensuous'):
>http://www.tnews.com/text/language_sensuous.html
>
>Cyberactivism and Citizenship: The Planet's Emerging Immune System:
>http://www.tnews.com/text/cyberactivism.html
>
>The Case Against the Global Economy:
>http://www.tnews.com/text/Against_the_GlobaLEconomy.html
>
>Deepak Chopra: Integrating Western and Eastern Medicine:
>http://www.tnews.com/text/chopra.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:34:45 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Crossing the Deadly Desert

Dear Walter, Judith, All,
   I just got word that my 'seminarian' niece and her family are about to
be posted to New Zealand.  Seemed like a heck of a coincidence (must wait
until later to see if it is synchronicity.)  Her husband is with the Dept of
Agriculture and they alternate 4 yrs in the U.S. and 4 abroad.  The last
was Costa Rica.

Re: Depression
Judith, I have reread this posting of yours almost daily.  For you it seems
like an almost miraculous series of revelations.  For me it keeps evoking
mentions of 'different communication styles' and my post last Spring
in which I tried to shower you with healing pink rose petals.
   In Cincinnati you have access to such a wonderful range of varying healing
paths.  Quite different from the small town where I live.  Clearly you are
making the most of them.
   In an effort to get more in touch with what you are trying give me I
am going to select out bits to address (and may do so again in the future,
if you don't object.)

On Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:40:54 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:

>Nancy,
[snip]
>I've been focused on an issue which emerged for me a few weeks back...I
called it self-cruelty...one of the processes I use is to work
with a woman who is a medical intuitive...

N: I'm guessing you found her through 'networking'.  Yes?

>I wanted to explore what the
>spiritual source of the pain in my right shoulder and particularly the
>knots which were in the muscles of my right bicep and the growths which are
>occuring on the tendons in my right hand particularly...I was pursuing this
>while working with a physical therapist, having Rikie treatments, and deep
>muscular massage work...nothing was budging it and the pain has persisted.

N: The Rikie method has been suggested to me, though I know of no practicianer
here.  Did you not find it helpful...or only not in the particular instance
you mention?

>I was looking to explore these questions:
>1)what was the source of my acts of self cruelty
>2)could this be tied in some way to my earlies recollection as a child of
>feeling there was something very wrong with me, manifesting later through
>my teens as an inferiority complex (which interestingly abated once I
>oriented to Buddahism)
>3)since the pain occurs on my right side and this is the *masculine* I
>wanted to see what this might reveal

N: I, too, find that interesting and have tried it several times.  Again
that 'barrier' of non-connection arises.

>4)and finally how much of my experience was mine personally and how much
>was this the (and I'll use a term we've spoken of here) collective psyche
>(meaning what part was my empathicness playing)
>
>Prior to the session I began taking specific action based in my new
>awareness of the concept *self cruelty*...I used this as a template around
>the choices I am making in the moment, those small actions which appear
>insignificant but when viewed illuminate a pattern...

[snip]

N: And again.  I don't even know what to ask...  Perhaps you can help with
a connection.  What is coming to my mind is a TV show I saw last night which
evoked a reaction I've been noticing about most of what comes to me these
days.  It was about how the industry of cultured pearls developed in Japan.
The breakthrough came when they tried 'sacrificing' (their word)one oyster
so as to embed a part of it along with a pearl seedling in many.  This
caused a uniformly round pearlizing substance to grow around the implant.
   Nature seems very cruel to me.  The total divorce of feeling which
appears to me to exist between predator and prey, pearl farmer and oyster...
not to mention among humans themselves...And all most of us can see are such
icy tips as the holocaust...

>We began by talking about my revulsion...that somehow *I* was connected to
>unspeakable acts...and my fascination since childhood of the Holicaust...as
>I was relating my life long feelings she said that the blocked energy in my
>right bicep was beginning to unwind (since the session there is
>considerable change in the knots in my biceps)...indicating that I was on
>the right track...as we worked energetically we spoke of my empathicness...
>
>She related this story which connected many *dots* for me...
>
>She went to the Dali Lama's conference in Washington DC and the first night
>the rimpoche who wrote the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying was
>teaching...he said that when he first came to the US 20 years ago he was
>completely baffled by Americans...he couldn't understand what was going on
>with them...then later he came to the information...he said Americans have
>a deep sense of *self-loathing* and that this is continuously playing
>out...he said he couldn't relate to this because there is nothing in the
>Tibetan world like this...primarily because of how they are oriented in
>their life.

N: I particularly wish I understood the above.
>
>This story brought me a huge insight...I was looking at the issue of
>*self-cruelty* but was not seeing the underlying cause which is in fact
>*self-loathing*...my response to this had been to short circuit positive
>paths in my life except as it related to me serving...interestingly I had
>made a conscious decision during my health crisis contemplation to hold my
>self interest and my service to the universe in equality and in reciprocity
>and had been pursuing that with interesting difficulty in holding
>self-interest...a certain unidentifable fear kept rising whenever I took
>action for self...the fear became identified in an amazing way to me...as I
>examined past patterns of self interest I found that there was a sort of
>*bar* that I could go up to with my self interest but if I went *over* the
>bar there was always a self cruel act, sort of a punishment...so I tested
>this pattern and sure enuf when I embraced the theatre opportunity in my
>totality, the fear appeared and for 2 weeks I was in a battle with it...the
>fear driving me to exacerbate my creating and thus sabatage the outcome,
>the performance...I had intentionally loaded this experience with all that
>I am, amping the stakes...and me holding the fear and fighting with my
>clear intention to serve my self...finding the *self cruelty* illuminated
>the fear and once it was in my consciousness the fear once named
>abated...and I manifested all that I had dreamed could be possible with the
>opportunity

N: This is the just concluded theater experience to which you refer?
>
>Now all this said, I now am holding the data about *self loathing* and my
>empathicness and the existence of this in our culture's deep psyche and
>seeing what I learn...

(snip)
>
>So, Nancy, I offer my experience and learnings from a perspective of your
>depression and your INFPness and ask the question for you (which doesn't
>include an expectation or asking you to share your considerations BTW): how
>much is you and how much is you *channelingtransmuting* for the collective
>psyche?

N: I follow you with my mind.  It seems that I may be experiencing this
phenomina from an opposite angle, i.e. the problem for me is that 'the
world' is not empathetic, not does it seem to want to be, nor is it likely
to change because I might wish it.  I feel myself to be one of those tiny
bits of oyster ripped from another to be inserted in a second, which may or
may not survive in the increasingly polluted waters, to grow a pearl.  The
pearl then will be culled as to quality and used to enhance the vanity
of some entity without a thought for the pain of its origin.
>
>Judith in thinkingness and blessings for illumination.

N: Again, Judith, I thank you for your well-wishes.
Oh, and a PS, three of my published haiku are now on view with a rather
obscure little autobiographical not at Elizabeth St. Jacques' site Poetry
in the Light.
  Sorry, I don't know how to cite properly so you can just click on it.  I
had to hunt it up myself with the help of Arfie (or to paraphrase your
Tibetian, Dogpile.)

Best to all,

Nancy

Another PS: Simon,didn't you find the author citations you gave on
Narcissism gave an awfully negative view compared to Nathan?  Just wondering.

____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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