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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:25:44 +0300
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From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: hello
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Hello  meeseo,
 I'm  glad  that you  told   your feelings about  the list.  You wrote:

>In fact, in these days, I don't read many emails from Psyber-L
>They are nearly spam to me.
>......same hates.same disputes.. ...etc...
>Despite of it, because I am still expecting something else, I am still
>here.

 I'm  too  expecting  else.   When I joined  two years ago, the list was
full of  poetry and  good  soulful discussions  on  the  cyber-culture,
communication, language, metaphors, transformative possibilities of
narratives etc, etc.  All the  items  were  interesting,  very inspiring ,
and  discussions were of high value.  I saved them on the flobby  disk.
Rilke, Yeats, Blake were often-mentioned and - quoted poets .  Oh, those old
good  times!  But  then  there  was a  shift of  tone  on  the list. The
tone  changed more  aggressive, more  coarse "in a American  way", more
Usenet  news-group-like.  I think  that the shift  happened  at that time,
when  JoAnne and Julienne joined the list. They  began  soon after joining
to tell  each other off. It   was very, very irritating.

You wrote too:
>Recently, I often think, that we disconnect internet is more good to
>our spirit and body.
>Of course, my thoughts are too pessimistic.

You're not at all pessimistic, but realistic.  Better to disconnect than
hang  on internet.  Before I  was a member about on  ten  mailing-lists,
nowadays only on three lists, one  of them  is PsyArt. If  you interested in
art and  literature,  there  are non-argumentative, good  ( Freudian and
sometimes also Jungian) discussions about  those items. The list  is
tightly moderated, flames and spams are not allowed.

My warm regards
Anita

PS.  I  would like to send  some soul-touching stuff from  those  old good
times of  Psyber-L.  First  I  quote Dolores'   writing -    Dolores, I hope
you don't mind my quoting .

>Find enclosed the power of words, of beauty, of thought, of communication
>and of reaching so far into the soul that a part of me is now one with these
>words and their authors. These people I have never met..but they let me
>touch their souls briefly with their words. Their words are eternal in me.
>In the same way my soul can soar and rise to places where only beauty exists
>in the world, when I know what it is to truly be alive  - when I hear a
>piece of music or look at colours painted in the dawn as it breaks at 4am on
>a summer morning, or when I hold my daughters tiny hand in mine and feel the
>comfort that she seeks there or to feel the love here that I am given
>through the intensity of communication here.

And  in conclusion  Rilke's poem. It  is  from Alyss' mail. Alyss is no more
on the list. She  wrote:
>Your words on soulful interconnectedness, Susan, make me think of Rilke's
>poem, You Who Never Arrived:

....You, Beloved, who are all
the gardens I have ever gazed at,
longing. An open window
in a country house -, you almost
stepped out, pensive, to meet me. Streets that I chanced upon,-
you had just walked down them and vanished.
And sometimes, in a shop, the mirrors
were still dizzy with your presence and, startled, gave back
my too-sudden image. Who knows? perhaps the same
bird echoed through both of us
yesterday, separate, in the evening.

>It's the sense of almost-connectedness,our-almost-potential-almost-true that
>we don't have to endure separation of minds/souls.  Our selves are built upon
>a sense of loss and separateness.  Having become individuals can we now,
>those of us here in Psyberia and beyond, meet our transpersonal nature again
>in each other?








At 19:56 1998-05-30 -0700, you wrote:
>---kate collie <kcollie@UNIXG.UBC.CA> wrote:
>>
>> I joined this list a few days ago, and would like to introduce myself.
>> It's not clear to me yet what this list is, but what brought me to
>it is
>> my interest in Internet counselling--specifically Internet art
>therapy,
>> the subject of my current research project here at the University of
>> British Columbia (in Vancouver, Canada). I have been thinking about
>> Internet communication, gender differences in attitudes to
>> computer-mediated communication...
>>
>
>Hi.
>
>..Nice to know about your concerns.
>Of course, It seems that this place is not a proper place to discuss
>"art"
>Further, my concern is not a counselling(My major is Aesthetics).
>
>But, I have been thinking about the change of the mind through art.
>So to speak, the change of the sensibility.
>
>Specifically, I am interest in mind's interaction through internet.
>But, today, art has has a broad meaning.
>What is "Art"?  ....and .what kind of art?
>And, in internet, how can we ask someone to continue
> to concentrate his/her attention on artistic experience?
>
>The confrontation with pc's monitor itself is too painful.
>....too colorful and too noisy(of fan)...too stimulative..
>Do you know VR(virtual reality)?
>What do you think about it?
>
>Recently, I often think, that we disconnect internet is more good to
>our spirit and body.
>Of course, my thoughts are too pessimistic.
>
>But, while I am noticing the tenacious hatred and stubbornness, here,
> I suspect the possibility of the change in mind through art theraphy
>in internet.
>In fact, in these days, I don't read many emails from Psyber-L
>They are nearly spam to me.
>......same hates.same disputes.. ...etc...
>Despite of it, because I am still expecting something else, I am still
>here.
>
>I am sorry to tell you about my feelings.
>
>Meeseo
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>
>

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 06:49:51 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: no shift in the process, I guess
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JoAnne,
Sorry that I have not been responsive to your last post...I have been in an
intense healing time and when the window of opportunity opens even a slit I
must engage with the fullness of my being...thanks for your concern...it is
truly a remarkable time for me...Caroline Myss, the medical intuitive,
calls a time such as I am in, a dark night of the soul, and one simply
endures and continues her prayers...
more when I can
Judith


>Hello Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>, on Sat, 30 May 1998 08:50:20 -0400
>you wrote:
>
>>JoAnne,
>>I woke this morning deep in the logics incomplete logics illogics of what
>>has been written here...I must have been busy in the dream state...not much
>>sleep 4 hours interrupted by bouts of coughing...
>
>I hope you are over that soon, I am worried for you.
>
>>however, feel as if I'm
>>back as that computer programmer when they filled rooms and I was learning
>>the language with a hardware manual and a memory dump following the
>>logic...and often ending up totally lost somewhere in the binary off and
>>ons having to backtrack to find out where I missed the turn in the
>>code...:-)
>
>I've been there, and you're right, it feels that way.
>
>>This is to say I have a resonnance with your logical proficiency, meaning
>>how your experience is clear to you and held together...it is also to say I
>>have continued to remain in a state of logical suspense without going to
>>any easy place for me of resolution or drawing a conclusion yet...I've been
>>ruminating about where my experience of you and Julienne revealed the train
>>wreck coming toward each other...forgive the snippets and I have not
>>snipped out of context except to look at the possible logical incongruities
>
>The snippets seem reasonable representations to me, of me.
>
>>working backwards there is the intertwining of fascets of the experience
>>seems to me
>>1) you keeping the focus on what happened to you from your logic of experience
>>
>>2) Julienne's focus on your post to the list about her...
>>
>>I have not made an attempt to find that post which I realize leaves me with
>>inexact data
>>Logically this is a double bind...or chinese knot...you pull on one loop
>>and the other loop tightens, and Julienne pulls on one loop and the other
>>tightens...
>>
>>So thus you continue with your logic set and she hers and I experience this
>>as the computer being in a loop...the program has no logic available to
>>move the computer out of the loop...so it continues to crash...
>
>There is a loop exit, which I describe below.
>
>>I find in our conversation you made mention of how you hold your
>>interaction with people which if I understood correctly, is from a place of
>>guardedness and you work toward trust...I think we commented on my medical
>>experience
>>
>>You said in our conversation:
>><I tend to look for inconsistencies, things that don't make sense, things
>>that don't fit the pattern, and when I want to know, I ask.  I sometimes
>>don't believe what people say, either; another impoliteness, but it seems
>>necessary.
>>
>>It's not infallible, but it's worked enough times to make me use this
>>approach when there's something I want to know.  Usually I'm not
>>disappointed, though often enough it's not because someone gave me an
>>answer, it's because they refuse to, that gives me my answer.>
>>
>>This is a very clear statement to me about how part of your mind works...I
>>experience everyone as being logically incomplete...myself included...but
>>my communication intention comes from an openhearted place...I would
>>suspect that if you and I were in a situation and you called me on my
>>inconsistencies given your acknowledged communication style, I might on a
>>bad cough day feel I've taken a hit...I admit to not being inscrutably
>>logical...
>
>It would depend on your reaction to my "calling you" on an inconsistency.
>If someone says, yeah, I guess that's inconsistent, or "I don't know why I
>hold those obviously conflicting ideas," or, "that's just my philosophy,"
>then I accept it.  I may ask again, working towards a logical whole that
>can be shared, but I'm not usually confrontational unless it seems the
>person is saying, no, they're not contradictory, refuses to explain why,
>and gets angry.
>
>The problem deepens, of course, when I see a red bird fly by, someone says,
>how blue that bird was.  If the bird is inconsequential, who cares.  If the
>bird is the bird of happiness, and our salvation depends on the answer to
>the question of the bird's color, we both care.
>
>>In any event your statement here again taken from our conversation,
>>
>>>I tend to look for inconsistencies, things that don't make sense, things
>>>that don't fit the pattern, and when I want to know, I ask.  I sometimes
>>>don't believe what people say, either; another impoliteness, but it seems
>>>necessary.
>>
>>My way of communicating wants to insert *to me* in your words...necessary
>>to me...And I might not find it *necessary to me* At the time I didn't ask
>>but the question was *why does it seem necessary*...without asking this
>>question at the time I now am left with lapses in logic...
>
>Okay, I agree with your thought.  It seems necessary to me.  I know it's
>not necessary for many, maybe most, people.  I have a need to see things as
>a cohesive whole, a compatible system.  I want to know everything, that is
>my idea of heaven.
>
>Paradoxically that can allow for entire categories of incompatibility if it
>is acknowledged, a spoken duality (or triality or whatever).  For example,
>we're all people, but there are multiple genders.  I don't demand that the
>genders be identical.  Combinations of things only when necessary (to me).
>I learn by pattern and not by rote, but exceptions must be acknowledged,
>they are simply more complex patterns, another level down.
>
>>And *things that don't make sense* is another aspect of how you come from
>>logic...This assumes there is one sense to be made which is illogical to
>>me...another question unasked at the time, do you think there is *one
>>sense*...if you start out with the assumption there is *one sense* to be
>>made, there is another assumption that everyone is a clone processing every
>>life experience exactly the same way, maybe an expectation but given the
>>complexities I don't hold this... again didn't I understand you to say to
>>me something about truth, I can't find the exact words, but my rememberance
>>is that you come from a place that assumes *truth* and I think I said that
>>I don't come from that same place...which would immediately dump us out the
>>computer code in different places...or else the computer would be flashing
>>*one sense* *one sense* I can't compute...this is played with in a sense of
>>fun BTW...
>
>It is a fun picture.  My computer can make exceptions.  When it hits the
>debug point, "not making sense," I stop, look at the code, decide whether
>to continue and ignore the not-sense, program in an exception for it,
>realize that there is a missing part of code and reprogram,
>
>This is somewhat recursive!  I feel here I am responding as the program or
>computer or situation would to me -- that you see an inconsistency or
>deficiency, have a question, and I respond with a clarification or addition
>or admission of imperfection.
>
>And maybe greater recognition of that particular function, so that next
>time I use it I may be more conscious of it, or next time I'm deciding what
>to do with the program (life), I am more likely to think of the exception.
>
>However, to someone whose mental process is different, my answers will be
>totally insufficient and perhaps maddening.  I'm flashing on my response to
>Julienne about the postal fraud accusations and my use of multiple
>exclamation points to signal my frustration at her mental picture of it,
>which seems so wrong to me.
>
>>so given the potential for my incomplete logic, I come to this place in my
>>experience of you from your logic...and mine is simply different...
>
>I don't expect that everyone must be the same kind of logical that I am, or
>logical at all.  But ... I do not find a great interest in things that
>don't hold promise of a logic or sense or system or shape to them, and
>people whose lives, stories, discussions, are centered exclusively on the
>extra-logical are usually not interesting to me.
>
>>Now from my perspective here is an snip from Julienne and my conversation...
>
>>Julienne in a post with me recently said in speaking about her mother's
>>words said she comes from a place of trust (my interpretation and I must
>>reveal this is my basic nature)
>>her words snipped from her message and I have deliberately snipped out
>>parts...
>>" ...I have always been friendly and outgoing...She (her mother)felt I was not
>>self-protective enough."
>>
>>Logic collision course between the two of you...and my experience in the
>>world says the two of you are locked into an illogical battle, two
>>completely unaligned world views, which is not solveable at the logical
>>level it was created...
>
>When I saw that same story, before and now, I have seen it differently from
>the way Julienne saw it.  To say you don't want to tell anyone anything you
>wouldn't want repeated is, to me, to say that you shouldn't gossip,
>shouldn't make a habit of talking behind people's backs, should be honest
>and aboveboard in your dealings with other people, and that this does not
>speak so much of distrust in others, because after all everyone is human,
>and may let something slip even accidentally, but to life your life as if
>it were in public, to not be ashamed of anything you do or say.
>
>Since this is the kind of think my parents taught me, perhaps I'm
>projecting onto her mother what my mother might say.  It holds no less
>meaning to me if that's true.  I'm willing to accept that I will never know
>what her mother meant.  I am interested in Julienne's reaction to what I
>consider to be a good way to live life, as one full of fear and distrust.
>I think it's a life of realism and certainly allows one to retain optimism
>because it admits human mistakes (gossip getting out) as normal and
>natural.  If one wears warm clothing, one need not be troubled by cool
>weather.
>
>>Thus you keep calling for *the* inconsistencies in logic to be addressed
>>and Julienne counters with how emotionally whelmed she is...(I didn't say
>>overwhelmed because this is logically redundant given the dictionary
>>definition of whelmed but then again maybe overwhelmed is correct :-)
>
>I think that's a fair assessment, from my point of view.  I think also that
>Julienne presents herself as logical but eventually always uses the
>emotional argument instead, and I don't like that path.  I feel led into
>the muck.
>
>>Well, this is as far as my dream evidentally took me...maybe not concise
>>and complete but when I got to my logically created sense of each of your
>>world views have for the moment, given the data, conclude an inevitable
>>train wreck...and my world view assumes we each are hear as teacherstudents
>>to each other...
>
>I have that view also.  We sometimes don't like the way we learn things.
>
>>Judith off for a healing treatment...should help my spelling errors which
>>are caused by my coughing ;-)
>
>I hope your treatment is fruitful.
>
>-JoAnne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 06:56:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: no shift in the process, I guess
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne,
This is just a quick message before I go off to rl and deal with auditors
at an agency I help out with...I have not been able to be responsive to
your post because I went thru an intense healing session Sat am and have
been in *it* as it were...thanks for the herb...this one I am not familiar
with so it is good for my body to have new things to work with...
I'll respond when I am in a place where I can give my full attention
I amnow  hopeful that my body will come into its natural place of
health...the journey continues to ask everything of me...
Judith

>At 08:50 AM 5/30/98 -0400, Judith wrote:
>>JoAnne,
>>I woke this morning deep in the logics incomplete logics illogics of what
>>has been written here...I must have been busy in the dream state...not much
>>sleep 4 hours interrupted by bouts of coughing...however, feel as if I'm
>>back as that computer programmer when they filled rooms and I was learning
>>the language with a hardware manual and a memory dump following the
>>logic...and often ending up totally lost somewhere in the binary off and
>>ons having to backtrack to find out where I missed the turn in the
>>code...:-)
>>
>>This is to say I have a resonnance with your logical proficiency, meaning
>>how your experience is clear to you and held together...it is also to say I
>>have continued to remain in a state of logical suspense without going to
>>any easy place for me of resolution or drawing a conclusion yet...I've been
>>ruminating about where my experience of you and Julienne revealed the train
>>wreck coming toward each other...forgive the snippets and I have not
>>snipped out of context except to look at the possible logical incongruities
>
>I like that - "train wreck" :) That's how it bloody feels. So I keep trying to
>get my own train derailed - or to derail JoAnne's, so there need be no
>great wreck.
>
>>working backwards there is the intertwining of fascets of the experience
>>seems to me
>>1) you keeping the focus on what happened to you from your logic of
>experience
>>
>>2) Julienne's focus on your post to the list about her...
>>
>>I have not made an attempt to find that post which I realize leaves me with
>
>>inexact data
>>Logically this is a double bind...or chinese knot...you pull on one loop
>>and the other loop tightens, and Julienne pulls on one loop and the other
>>tightens...
>
>How about when I back away from the loops - is that just a delaying tactic?
>
>>So thus you continue with your logic set and she hers and I experience this
>>as the computer being in a loop...the program has no logic available to
>>move the computer out of the loop...so it continues to crash...
>
>Well, of course I don't feel this - I feel that I try to shift the ground
>to find
>a way to meet. But then that may be part of my being the reasonable and
>feeling one. Whoops! - I just coopted BOTH sets of traits, didn't I? <g>
>
>>I find in our conversation you made mention of how you hold your
>>interaction with people which if I understood correctly, is from a place of
>>guardedness and you work toward trust...I think we commented on my medical
>>experience
>
>To me this feels like eeek! - my mother????? Cynical and guarded. Ouch.
>Dealing with people only on her terms - very rigid about telephone or
>at home visits... Although in other ways she and JoAnne are quite different.
>Oh my...here it all comes: my mother was always the "nice" one - no anger -
>and I was the angry and dishonest one - according to her. Throw in
>selfish, also. Here's how I became selfish:
>
>When I was 2, and my brother 1, I wanted my mother one day. My brother
>woke up from his nap at the same time. My mother tells the story of how
>I was so selfish and demanding that she had to go to my brother's crib
>and tell him she would make it up to him later in life, but for that moment
>she had to attend to me. So - from that moment on, I became the "selfish"
>one...and so, of course, in an effort to prove how unselfish I am, went on
>to become a counselor taking care of others all my life, becoming a step-
>parent bringing up someone else's children, fighting on my radio and TV
>shows for everyone else's rights, form children to old people, to whomever.
>
>>You said in our conversation:
>><I tend to look for inconsistencies, things that don't make sense, things
>>that don't fit the pattern, and when I want to know, I ask.  I sometimes
>>don't believe what people say, either; another impoliteness, but it seems
>>necessary.
>
>To me this feels like the Gestapo, or the Grand Inquisitor. And I
>wonder where she gets the information to decide where the one
>and only truth lies? I want to say to JoAnne, "lighten up!" - don't
>be so hard on people!
>
>>It's not infallible, but it's worked enough times to make me use this
>>approach when there's something I want to know.  Usually I'm not
>>disappointed, though often enough it's not because someone gave me an
>>answer, it's because they refuse to, that gives me my answer.>
>
>And my response to this is that JoAnne is notthe C.I.A. , but seems
>to assume a right to all the information she wants about others - like
>a grand invasion of privacy. Then, when she gets some information,
>she judges it like a one-woman Supreme Court.
>
>>This is a very clear statement to me about how part of your mind works...I
>>experience everyone as being logically incomplete...myself included...but
>>my communication intention comes from an openhearted place...I would
>>suspect that if you and I were in a situation and you called me on my
>>inconsistencies given your acknowledged communication style, I might on a
>>bad cough day feel I've taken a hit...I admit to not being inscrutably
>>logical...
>
>Yes - a hit in the solar plexus. Have you tried HYOSCYAMUS for your cough?
>It's an herbal thing which my naturopath gives me.
>
>>In any event your statement here again taken from our conversation,
>
>
>>>I tend to look for inconsistencies, things that don't make sense, things
>>>that don't fit the pattern, and when I want to know, I ask.  I sometimes
>>>don't believe what people say, either; another impoliteness, but it seems
>>>necessary.
>
>The C.I.A - F.B.I. again.
>
>>My way of communicating wants to insert *to me* in your words...necessary
>>to me...
>
>What I used to say to my parents...:)
>
>And I might not find it *necessary to me* At the time I didn't ask
>>but the question was *why does it seem necessary*...without asking this
>>question at the time I now am left with lapses in logic...
>>And *things that don't make sense* is another aspect of how you come from
>>logic...This assumes there is one sense to be made which is illogical to
>>me...another question unasked at the time, do you think there is *one
>>sense*...if you start out with the assumption there is *one sense* to be
>>made, there is another assumption that everyone is a clone processing every
>>life experience exactly the same way,
>
>When things don't make sense, it may be a lack of understanding in the
>listener, also (JoAnne in this case) - rather than any witholding in the
>speaker.
>
>>maybe an expectation but given the
>>complexities I don't hold this... again didn't I understand you to say to
>>me something about truth, I can't find the exact words, but my rememberance
>>is that you come from a place that assumes *truth* and I think I said that
>>I don't come from that same place...which would immediately dump us out the
>>computer code in different places...or else the computer would be flashing
>>*one sense* *one sense* I can't compute...this is played with in a sense of
>
>>fun BTW...
>>so given the potential for my incomplete logic, I come to this place in my
>>experience of you from your logic...and mine is simply different...
>
>>Now from my perspective here is an snip from Julienne and my conversation...
>>Julienne in a post with me recently said in speaking about her mother's
>>words said she comes from a place of trust (my interpretation and I must
>>reveal this is my basic nature)
>>her words snipped from her message and I have deliberately snipped out
>parts...
>>" ...I have always been friendly and outgoing...She (her mother)felt I was
>not
>>self-protective enough."
>
>>Logic collision course between the two of you...and my experience in the
>>world says the two of you are locked into an illogical battle, two
>>completely unaligned world views, which is not solveable at the logical
>>level it was created...
>
>Yup.
>
>>Thus you keep calling for *the* inconsistencies in logic to be addressed
>>and Julienne counters with how emotionally whelmed she is...(I didn't say
>>overwhelmed because this is logically redundant given the dictionary
>>definition of whelmed but then again maybe overwhelmed is correct :-)
>
>Well, I am not always overwhelmed, but right now I am proud of myself
>if I get up and work on my computer. If I get through a day without
>something reminding me of my parents and flooding me again with
>grief, that;s a good day - or I'm repressing. :)
>
>However, even if I weren't going through what I'm going through now
>(And there is more I haven't shared because it's all too much anyway,
>and I know JoAnne would only trample all over it anyway...and tell me
>to get on the sidewalk and stop disturbing "normal" people...) - if I
>weren't going through all this right now there would still be a clash
>because we are such different trains.
>
>I feel as though I am drowning. Have any of you ever nearly drowned?
>I have - 3 times. When one is drowning there isn't space to consider
>anything else but how to stay alive. If the love of one's life were to say
>at that moment, "Will you marry me?" - the impulse would be to just
>keep kicking frantically to get to the shore or across the undercurrent.
>Who cares about marriage at that moment? My brain doesn't work
>for a lot of things right now - it's flooded - my heart hurts, everything
>is on overload - and there comes JoAnne's train barrelling down on
>me with "Okay! Just what secrets are you hiding today?! I have PROOF
>that you stole a field full of pumpkins because you haven't told the
>whole truth ( which she assumes she has a right to invade me to know)
>and so I just know you must be the pumpkin thief. And if you're not -
>prove it! I am the Sagittarian judge and jury! Joanne is a double
>Sagittarius - the sign of the law and the judge. What that means,
>of course, is that she is not here to demand truth of others, but
>to learn to be honest herself. However, she's giving me her job.
>
>Well, I may have lost you all on that bit - but it was significant for my
>own reverie.
>
>>Well, this is as far as my dream evidentally took me...maybe not concise
>>and complete but when I got to my logically created sense of each of your
>>world views have for the moment, given the data, conclude an inevitable
>>train wreck...and my world view assumes we each are hear as teacherstudents
>>to each other...
>
>I like that, we are "hear" - to listen to each other, to hear other...as
>well as
>being "here" as I assumed you meant to say.
>
>>Anita in her post speaks of shadows which is a different view and one I am
>>seeking to learn about here (and am)
>>she says to Julienne:
>>
>>>      But the  following words are quite  clear to me. You wrote about
>JoAnne:
>>>> She chases me from list to list. Maybe she'll
>
>>>>win a free trip round the world. :)
>>>     Aha, I  thought, you know unconsciously, that JoAnne is your shadow,
>>>because  no else but the shadow  could chase a person round the world.   And
>>>you're JoAnne's shadow. That's good,   both  of you  have began  to  connect
>>>to your  shadow-side.
>>>    According to  Marie- Louise von Franz, "the  word shadow is simply a
>>>name we use for the fact that most people are not fully  aware of all their
>>>personality traits. We like to imagine ourselves as being intelligent, or
>>>generous or good-natured or practically gifted, and what not. But we have
>>>other qualities in our complete personality, inferior qualities that we are
>>>not so aware of. Our relationship to our  surroundings tells us about them,
>>>and in quarrels they come out... Whenever we are tired or under pressure,
>>>another personality often breaks through...."   To  Franz's mind  the shadow
>>>is really our best social function." It  integrates us into the group. With
>>>our  good qualities we  are above the group. With our shadow we are man
>>>among men and human, all-too human."
>
>Well, I'm woman among man and woman - and very human. Further, I
>lik being human - and also goddessly as well. :)
>
>>And I add to this my Mayan Shaman's teachings
>>"We are not humans seeking to be spirits
>>But spirits seeking to be more human"
>
>Yes! But in truth there is no separation...
>
>>Maybe in the illogics we find our humanity and thus compassion
>
>Empathy...
>
>"The heart hath reasons that reason knows not of..." Pascal...
>
>>Judith off for a healing treatment...should help my spelling errors which
>>are caused by my coughing ;-)
>
>Or your shadow trying to signal you? A coughing shadow...
>
>Try the Hyoscyamous...
>
>Julienne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 08:49:32 -0700
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: hello
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Anita, meeseo, all,

I appreciate your honest responses. Your expressed feelings are not
surprising, especially yours, meeseo. I suppose how we feel about something
partly has to do with how we engage it...and that there are only so many
hours in a day. Additionally, as always, our individual feelings in
combination with other aspects will also determine what we are willing to
attempt to co-create with others, and so I see the downside, meeseo and
Anita, is, (and I'm speculating,) that both of you are, from the evidence
of your recent contribtuions or lack of contributions, not wishing to
initiate "poetry and good  soulful discussions  on  the  cyber-culture,
communication, language, metaphors, transformative possibilities of
narratives etc," and 'art therapy' at this point in time.

I wouldn't characterize myself as being acutely sensitive, so I'm more
involved, even egotistically so, in those moments when there is a lot of
processing going on...I'm one of the first fools to rush in. Stubborness,
hatred? Not our highest most harmonious human condition, perhaps, but no
less human either...in my belief system at least.

***

I'm not a sentimental person and so the past here seems to be the precedent
for whatever hopes and 'a-ha's' might arrive today. I see the list
struggling with important soul-full issues recently, with the diametrically
opposed logic(s) of Julienne and JoAnne at the center of our working (right
now!) through both our past and the group's interpersonal and communicative
dynamics.

This seems, to me, to be essential work for the group to do because it is
about *human being*, soul, Psyber-L's humane center, the process through
which engagement and learning are made and persons are made through
process, imo. It is wholistic work in the most sensible sense of that work:
asking for our full as possible engagement. It is work which brings up the
hidden and what has been disowned, while calling us to see our self with
more sensitivity, to understand what *causes our sensibility*, and,
penetrating the logic(s), what causes the causation of our sensibility!

Also, this is one step to processing our shared experience which would some
day include processing the Gender Wars, (which is an ironic term I'm
comfortable with, although it would be more correct to say that those
events were an "Animus-Anima Battle-Royale") and the outcome which
satisfied some at the same time it dissatisfied others.

Amazingly, this all has to carry with it the spectre of being alienating!
(Countering that, I'll point to Judith's reappearance here: she had left to
attend to matters of learning and growth right before the events of last
year and now has rejoined us to help us attend to the aftermath of those
matters. So, too, in opening her self out to us over the .Void incident,
Marie also has enriched our difficult work.)

Julienne and JoAnne are both here and both, in different ways, are
dedicated to learning and self-awareness. Should they instantly perfect
their harmonization for our sake? Allah has not willed it so, and His
Reasons are better than ours!

***

But, this isn't a very pretty process to observe, less so for anybody who
doesn't share in its history's unfolding. It causes the list to be
formidible: process-oriented, introspective, private, messy, 'too intimate'
and like overhearing strangers' heated emotional conversations. The list at
these times is overexposed, vulnerable, shameless as well as shamefull.

It is so, then, less about the fireworks of ideas and art and spirituality
and high-mindedness, that we may struggle to understand what value it's
going on has for us. Maybe by projecting so much richness onto the group
*no matter what* I am missing something too.

(...just a few rolling feelings and thoughts...)

***

As sentimental as I am, I do note recent events include the wonderful
dialogues between Judith and JoAnne, and now Judith and Julienne, and the
interesting dialogue between Simon and Walter, and also the VarMan
incident, the new welcome energy of Barry, and the reawakened (!) Marie.
Dolores, meanwhile, seems to have made her depth-filled 'troll' and gone
silent, again. Robert is juggling his many colored balls.

Charles? I miss Charles, and I miss you two, Anita and Dolores.

***

It seems we're making progress, which must be an odd 'sentiment' to hear me
express if one feels that we are disintegrating! But, I do find us
struggling to find, learn our song again here. Who said it would be easy?

***

best to all,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:22:12 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: hello
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At 07:56 PM 5/30/98 -0700, Meeseo wrote:

>In fact, in these days, I don't read many emails from Psyber-L
>They are nearly spam to me.
>......same hates.same disputes.. ...etc...
>Despite of it, because I am still expecting something else, I am still
>here.

Hullo Meeseo,

I know how you feel, and my instinct is to agree with you, and to look at
what goes on on this list with a form of
horror. How can people ( I am just not going to be specific - but clearly I
don't mean everyone) be so unkind,
so untruthful, so cold, so voyeuristic, so disassociated, as some seem to
me to be on here?

My instinct is to say "stuff the whole damn thing - there's something
really awful about this and I don't want any
part of it." I feel as though I should just rise above it all and only
respond when something "nice" is said - and that I should ignore what I see
as the "difficult" people, who, in my eyes, just want to stir things up and
throw junk around.

But, like you, I'm still here, probably hoping everyone will suddenly start
to be very sensitive and kind and
deep and wise - instead of this junky little crew of very weird people, all
of whom, including myself, are human, all-too-human, to use Nietzsche's
words.  I look at those wo go into giant tirades, such as Anita and
Dolores, and no one says a word. Yet it feels to me as though even my best
attempts to enter into dialogue end up shredded and trampled on the
psyberlist floor. I feel as though if I say "the sky is blue", JoAnne will
jump in and
accuse me of really meaning something else mean and rotten. I am amazed at
her capacity to ignore my words and create a giantly different meaning out
of what I say - even reinterpreting my mother's words very cruelly, and
wrongly.

Anyway, I am still here, but greatly tempted to just shut up and let the
waves roll over me - hoping there will be
a change. I suppose I am still here because I hope I can be a part of that
change, although all evidence so
far is that I might as well forget that.  I can assure you I am feeling
very sorry for myself, and disgusted and
disappointed in the list - and also disappointed in my own ability to
handle whatever is going on.

I might as well write a giantly horrible tirade - the reaction could hardly
be worse than what comes back when
I don't.

Well, Meeseo, I also feel hate coming at me, but I also sense behind it
pain, wounds, people crying out to be
seen differently than they are. Maybe that's why I just try to explain
instead of attacking back. But the explanation, or my attempts to be
revealing, even knowing JoAnne is just waiting with a hammer to bash me,
are met as
though I had attacked. Is that my issue? Or JoAnne's? Or does it belong to
the whole List? I don't know - and maybe I'll end up not caring, or just
deciding to get out of here.

What is it that the rest of the list members hope to get out of this?

And why is it that they, as did Anita in her post today, focus on JoAnne
and me as the beginning of all
this on this list? The actual boil was lanced by Void...the problems were
thrown on the Psyber floor
before JoAnne and I were even on the list.

Cheer up Meeseo - it's not our whole lives. :)

Love,

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 06:44:36 +1200
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From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: no shift in the process, I guess
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Judith

My thoughts are with you.  I wish you well.

Barry
____________________________________
Barry Kennedy<kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 20:06:18 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: dialogue of intentions
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>>HooN,
>>
>>The purpose of the drama that follows intention and rationale seems worth
>>considering, as a way of deciding/decoding its value. Is the purpose to
>>avoid the drama that *preceded* the intention/rationale? Or to shed light
>>on it?
>>
>>In the former case we tend to justify ourselves as we are, in the latter to
>>question ourselves as we are.
>>
>>Simon,
>
>Simon, I opt, ummm, on *good days* for the latter. How about you?

HooN,

I had in mind the situation *on balance* (hence 'we tend to' - perhaps it
would be better to say 'on balance we justify' etc). Usually there's an
interplay of justification and questioning (part of the drama of the drama,
yes?). So an interesting question might be: at what stage do you decide the
'on balance' bit? Part of the pull of the drama, it seems to me, is the
desire to see a change for the better (though 'the better' may mean
different things to different people - and 'a change' may not be a change
in ourselves!). So maybe the 'on balance' bit comes at the point where we
decide that either the law of diminishing returns or the law of increasing
returns has kicked in (er, I think I just made that last one up!). Hmm, how
might a law of increasing returns be phrased/framed?!

Btw, I'd say good days for me are about either a happy acceptance of myself
as I am ('passive justification'?) or a positive questioning. By the same
token, bad days are about either an unhappy acceptance of myself as I am
('active justification'?) or a negative questioning. The 'as I am' may not
always be *as I am*, of course (maybe never is).


>There's something refreshing about, for example, two antagonists suddenly
>each declaring, "Wait, this is hilarious, I've been subjecting my self to
>my self again!" A powerful bit of doing in the gap...often enough to carry
>one out of, beyond a pattern, a 'manipulation', into whatever may be next.

Yes, that moment when you step 'outside' yourself as you've been - see from
a different perspective - usually comes with a chuckle.


>Another pattern? Sure, speaking from my own experience. (Bateson's
>*difference*!)
>
>***

Another wind of the spiral, another vantage point.


>One technique is to: induce novelty into the reasoningdrama...purposely
>disrupt the code, break it!
>
>***<--- jeez I'm enamoured of these...
>
>HooN

This puts me in mind of the fool in 'King Lear' - though maybe wrongly, as
I haven't read it in years!

Simon

PS. re the asterisks: they're so *HooN* ;)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:19:43 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: no shift in the process, I guess
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks, Barry
J

>Judith
>
>My thoughts are with you.  I wish you well.
>
>Barry
>____________________________________
>Barry Kennedy<kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:21:33 +1200
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From:         Brian Pauling <paulingb@CHCH.PLANET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      FW: In London without a phone.
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Hi all,

At the Globe, a firm Josh is doing some wotk for, and just checked my
mail, thanks all! Have not had time to read it all.

London is wonderful, better than the sim version called Monopoly.

Josh's flat is without the phone, an error occerred when a flatmate left

and the local system is fixing it! In the meantime confined to rl which
is OK!


Love,

Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:34:12 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: FW: In London without a phone.
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At 11:21 AM 6/2/98 +1200, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>At the Globe, a firm Josh is doing some wotk for, and just checked my
>mail, thanks all! Have not had time to read it all.
>
>London is wonderful, better than the sim version called Monopoly.
>
>Josh's flat is without the phone, an error occerred when a flatmate left
>
>and the local system is fixing it! In the meantime confined to rl which
>is OK!

Walter, enjoy!

You sound happy...

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:17:37 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: hello
In-Reply-To:  <19980601172222.CXRD20489@default>
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On Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:22:12 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>But, like you, I'm still here, probably hoping everyone will suddenly start
>to be very sensitive and kind and
>deep and wise - instead of this junky little crew of very weird people, all
>of whom, including myself, are human, all-too-human, to use Nietzsche's
>words.

I don't think you'll get what you're looking for.  The world is a
junky little crew of very weird people, at best.

>I feel as though if I say "the sky is blue", JoAnne will
>jump in and
>accuse me of really meaning something else mean and rotten. I am amazed at
>her capacity to ignore my words and create a giantly different meaning out
>of what I say - even reinterpreting my mother's words very cruelly, and
>wrongly.

I admitted I couldn't know what she meant, but explained how it
resonated for me.  How was that cruel?

And you admit you didn't and still don't understand her point of view,
considering it to be fearful and unpleasant.  How do you know what she
meant, then?  I realize this will probably cause storms of
indignation, but I'll weather it.  I've got the gear.

>Well, Meeseo, I also feel hate coming at me, but I also sense behind it
>pain, wounds, people crying out to be
>seen differently than they are. Maybe that's why I just try to explain
>instead of attacking back. But the explanation, or my attempts to be
>revealing, even knowing JoAnne is just waiting with a hammer to bash me,

You are again revealing some violent fantasies of yours.  You
certainly seem to enjoy discussing physical violence when you talk
about me.  If I were the paranoid type I guess I would be afraid to
open the door to go to work in the morning, expecting a Julienne with
axe, knife or hammer to show up at any moment.

>are met as
>though I had attacked. Is that my issue? Or JoAnne's? Or does it belong to
>the whole List? I don't know - and maybe I'll end up not caring, or just
>deciding to get out of here.
>
>What is it that the rest of the list members hope to get out of this?
>
>And why is it that they, as did Anita in her post today, focus on JoAnne
>and me as the beginning of all
>this on this list? The actual boil was lanced by Void...the problems were
>thrown on the Psyber floor
>before JoAnne and I were even on the list.

Perhaps because they can ask us questions and interact with us better
-- they had trouble doing so with void.  Perhaps they consider either
or both of us of greater value, see us with two if not three
dimensions, and didn't feel that way about void.  We at least have
real names and real lives to discuss.

I don't know, just guessing.

>Cheer up Meeseo - it's not our whole lives. :)

One hopes not.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:57:52 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      reflections on space
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Judith,

Recently I picked up a book by Henri Lefebvre called 'The Production of
Space' which looks to be rather fascinating. It's prefaced by a short poem
from Octavio Paz (one of my favourite poets) which seems rather apposite
for *this* particular space. Also, just dipping into the pages in search of
serendipity, I soon happened across a quote which made me think of you.
You've been on my mind anyway, so maybe some strange process (strange
attractor?) led me to the quote.

Anyway, for some reason I just wanted to put these together.

I hope that your healing process is going well.

with warm regards,

Simon



Envoi

Imprisoned by four walls
(to the North, the crystal of non-knowledge
a landscape to be invented
to the South, reflective memory
to the East, the mirror
to the West, stone and the song of silence)
I wrote messages, but received no reply.

Octavio Paz



"Around the living organism, both those energies which it captures and
those which threaten it are *mobile*: they are 'currents' or 'flows'. By
contrast, in order to capture available energies the organism must have at
its disposal apparatuses which are *stable*. It must respond to aggression
with defensive actions, setting up boundaries around the body that it can
maintain and protect.
"The fact that a surplus of energy is accumulated before being discharged
is thus a defining aspect of the very concept of the 'living body' and its
relationship with its space - i.e. with itself, its vicinity, its
surroundings, and the world at large. A productive squandering of energy is
not a contradiction in terms: an expenditure of energy may be deemed
'productive'  so long as some change, no matter how small, is thereby
effected in the world. The concept of production is thus sharpened and
revived without becoming so broad as to lose all meaning: we see that a
game may qualify as a piece of work, or as a work in the strong sense of
the word, while a space designed for playful activity may legitimately be
deemed a *product* in that it is the outcome of an activity which regulates
itself (lays down rules for itself) as it unfolds."

(Henri Lefebvre, 'The Production of Space')

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:38:46 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Meeseo
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Meeseo

> Of course, It seems that this place is not a proper place to discuss
> "art"

Ah!  But the art is the act of dialogue in this place.  Perhaps this art
is not always "pretty".  Sometimes art is about the horror, the shadows.

      Sunday Evening in Glory
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

a thin shimmer of rain wets asphalt
tires squeeze sound as they press
black wetness rushing somewhere
rushing going nowhere but here

voices praising the Lord with gold
with sacrifice and pleabargaining and
counting the costs with an eye on
yet another charitable tax deduction

passing discarded souls found to soft
discarding children and the childlike
abandoning dreams that failed them
in the frantic frenzied search for more

drawn to the pulsing glow of neon
that flashes through the darkness
promising power, release from pain
nothing down and eternity to pay.

Robert Longpre  98-05-24


> But, while I am noticing the tenacious hatred and stubbornness, here,
> I suspect the possibility of the change in mind through art theraphy
> in internet.
> In fact, in these days, I don't read many emails from Psyber-L
> They are nearly spam to me.
> ......same hates.same disputes.. ...etc...
> Despite of it, because I am still expecting something else, I am still
> here.
>
> I am sorry to tell you about my feelings.

Meeseo, these spam/flame e-mails of stubborness and hate have resulted
in much silence and much noise.  I think too much of responding and find
my fingers busy with other tasks such as painting, playing my guitar,
writing words that don't find a listener in cyberspace, and testing the
matrix of mind and body in the art of golf, a curious dance of skill and
frustration.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:35:42 +0300
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From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
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Hi HooN, Julienne, JoAnne , Judith and all,

HooN, you wrote:
>I see the downside, meeseo and
>Anita, is, (and I'm speculating,) that both of you are, from the evidence
>of your recent contribtuions or lack of contributions, not wishing to
>initiate "poetry and good  soulful discussions  on  the  cyber-culture,
>communication, language,

I  would willingly like  to initiate a discussion on the
cyber-communication,  writing and poetry, but  I'm afraid that   it is
beyond  of  my  verbal  ability.  So I wish, that   all of you  would learn
the Finnish language as soon as possible.   When I  read  Julienne's
response to the Hello-email , I understand to my great regret, how
insufficiently I  can  express  in  English my  intentions.
Julienne  wrote :
>I look at those wo go into giant tirades, such as Anita and
>Dolores, and no one says a word.
      I didn't  know what tirades mean, so I took my  Webster dictionary and
read, that a tirade is:
1.  a prolonged outburst of bitter, outspoken denunciation
2.  a long, vehement speech
3. a passage dealing with  a single  theme,  or idea, as in poetry:  the
stately tirades of Corneille
    After reading  the Webster  I was  surprised . I thought  puzzled:  Are
my writings really prolonged, bitter and vehement in English?  How  it  is
possible? Perhaps I'm a totally different person  when I  write in your
language.  How poorly  I, indeed,  can express my feelings!

 More  wishes:  My very  humble wishes  to  Julienne and  JoAnne: More
self-reflection, more
humour,  more  stepping outside yourself , as   Simon said:
   > Yes, that moment when you step 'outside' yourself as you've been - see from
   > a different perspective - usually comes with a chuckle.

 And to You, Judith, I wish healing   with Kahlil Gibrans  words: " In the
depth of your hopes and desires lies your silent  knowledge of the beyond;
And like seed dreaming beneath the snow your heart dreams of spring. Trust
the dreams, for in them is hidden the gate of eternity..
 My warm  thought are with you., Judith,

Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:55:04 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
In-Reply-To:  <199806021835.VAA02196@walrus.megabaud.fi>
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Hi Anita,

At 09:35 PM 6/2/98 +0300, you wrote:
>Hi HooN, Julienne, JoAnne , Judith and all,
>
>HooN, you wrote:
>>I see the downside, meeseo and
>>Anita, is, (and I'm speculating,) that both of you are, from the evidence
>>of your recent contribtuions or lack of contributions, not wishing to
>>initiate "poetry and good  soulful discussions  on  the  cyber-culture,
>>communication, language,
>
>I  would willingly like  to initiate a discussion on the
>cyber-communication,  writing and poetry, but  I'm afraid that   it is
>beyond  of  my  verbal  ability.  So I wish, that   all of you  would learn
>the Finnish language as soon as possible.   When I  read  Julienne's
>response to the Hello-email , I understand to my great regret, how
>insufficiently I  can  express  in  English my  intentions.
>Julienne  wrote :
>>I look at those wo go into giant tirades, such as Anita and
>>Dolores, and no one says a word.
>      I didn't  know what tirades mean, so I took my  Webster dictionary and
>read, that a tirade is:
>1.  a prolonged outburst of bitter, outspoken denunciation
>2.  a long, vehement speech
>3. a passage dealing with  a single  theme,  or idea, as in poetry:  the
>stately tirades of Corneille
>    After reading  the Webster  I was  surprised . I thought  puzzled:  Are
>my writings really prolonged, bitter and vehement in English?  How  it  is
>possible? Perhaps I'm a totally different person  when I  write in your
>language.  How poorly  I, indeed,  can express my feelings!

Oh Anita,

I didn't mean everything you write at all. I meant when you wrote
some very unkind posts to me last year. You criticized my tone
as being too intellectual and a few other things - I don't remember
it all now, and I certainly don't want to relive it by looking it all up
again. But you haven't written anyting like that this year.

Interestingly, I felt much as you feel now - shocked that someone
could have read what she read into what I was saying, and into
my tone. :)

However, I think you are absolutely correct that tone is very important.
I've lived in many countries, and I know that what sounds one way in
one culture can sound much more different than we think in another -
especially even in countries which ostensibly speak the same
language. For instance, I'm not American, and that can be more of
a language difference between JoAnne and I than one might
think - as well as a different mindset.

> More  wishes:  My very  humble wishes  to  Julienne and  JoAnne: More
>self-reflection, more
>humour,  more  stepping outside yourself , as   Simon said:

Well, humour is one of the most difficult things to translate - and I
notice that my attempts to be funny fall pretty flat on JoAnne - and maybe
on everyone here - I don't know.

Soon we'll be able to communicate through our computers with
sound - and what difference will that make? And not long after
that we'll even be able to see each other - still more information.

>   > Yes, that moment when you step 'outside' yourself as you've been -
see from
>   > a different perspective - usually comes with a chuckle.
>
> And to You, Judith, I wish healing   with Kahlil Gibrans  words: " In the
>depth of your hopes and desires lies your silent  knowledge of the beyond;
>And like seed dreaming beneath the snow your heart dreams of spring. Trust
>the dreams, for in them is hidden the gate of eternity..
> My warm  thought are with you., Judith,

I add my thoughts to Anita's, Judith.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:26:57 -0700
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Dear Julienne


                 Please...Please...............
          Don't tell the past things....
     Forget everything that hurts you.
If you are hurt from somebody, you also hurt them.

Life is truely too short to hate somebody and look back upon the bad
past.

                 Please ..please...
        Forgive yourself and others......
We are too fragile and have no energy to endure hates.


                Go outside
         ...full of sweet aromas of roses
               Sun shining
          many birds whispering...


Best wishes.

Meeseo

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:40:27 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
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Meeseo,

This makes two days in a row that I have written, both times in response
to your words to others.  Today, the words come from a different place.
Your words flowed like poetry, shaped like tear drops that have touched
the ground and are flattening from the impact (strange how words
arranged have visual impact as though paintings).  The images evoked
reflect some of what I feel in response to your words.

>                  Please...Please...............
>           Don't tell the past things....
>      Forget everything that hurts you.
> If you are hurt from somebody, you also hurt them.

But, Meeseo, the stories need to be told and not banished nor denied,
sometimes they need to be acknowledged and released so that the battered
and bruised soul can be healed.  To deny these hurts is to deny the
feelings and thus deny the "self".  This is why so many have resorted to
telling their pain in story, in poetry, in painting, in song, in music
... not to bury it, but to give it wings in order to be free of the
pain.  Do others get hurt by the stories written, the poems, the songs
... Yes, they do.  However, it is not the words, the music, or the
images that do the hurting.  It's the remembrance of being hurtful and
the need to rationalize our inflicting of pain because of some wounding
by others in times past.

>         Forgive yourself and others......
> We are too fragile and have no energy to endure hates.

Forgive "self".  Yes.  And all else may follow.  Any less is a living
darkness, death.

>                 Go outside
>          ...full of sweet aromas of roses
>                Sun shining
>           many birds whispering...

And:

                        Go inside
            to a place full of bitter memories
                     call out to that
               bleeding and abandoned child
               and listen to the tales that
                       need telling
              to the crying of a wounded soul


                         Weep with
                  and listen uncritically
               as the arrows are pulled free
                    exposing raw wounds
               and somehow find love for this
                        wounded soul
                    and for the "other"
                        who wounded.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 02:01:11 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
In-Reply-To:  <35748D6B.62FE@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>                        Go inside
>            to a place full of bitter memories
>                     call out to that
>               bleeding and abandoned child
>               and listen to the tales that
>                       need telling
>              to the crying of a wounded soul
>
>
>                         Weep with
>                  and listen uncritically
>               as the arrows are pulled free
>                    exposing raw wounds
>               and somehow find love for this
>                        wounded soul
>                    and for the "other"
>                        who wounded.
>
>Robert

Robert,

It's good to read your soul-filled poetry here again - poetry all the more
beautiful for acknowledging the dark side, for staring into the abyss and
still finding meaning.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:46:23 -0400
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From:         "Nancy S. Smith" <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: PSYBER-L Digest - 31 May 1998 to 1 Jun 1998 (#1998-107)

  Reflections on the List

     both roach and roshi
   honor deity with simple
           authenticity

        from Nancy, a presumptuous newcomer

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:29:48 -0700
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
In-Reply-To:  <199806021835.VAA02196@walrus.megabaud.fi>
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Anita writes,

>I  would willingly like  to initiate a discussion on the
>cyber-communication,  writing and poetry, but  I'm afraid that   it is
>beyond  of  my  verbal  ability.

Ahem. Which doesn't explain how you accomplished such things in the past,
um, here.

Anita, what are you up to these days? What is your heart embracing? Had any
good *day* dreams recently?

***

a light touch to your elbow,

HooN



 _o     \o_         __|    \ /     |__         o _   o/  \o/
__|-  __/    \__/o    \o    |    o/     o/__   /\   /|    |
   \    \    /  \     / \  /o\  / \     |   \  / |  / \  / \
http:junior.apk.net/~hoon                        hoon@apk.net

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:34:58 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      shifting in the process
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HooN, Walter, Judith, Simon, all ...

Finally, there is a will to write in response.  I won't question this
but will just let the words come and let them have their say

WL> Can any one understand me?

Perhaps ... And, how much clarity is there in this for you, Walter?  But
then, what I understand is coloured by the way I understand
anything/everything and that doesn't mean that my understanding is what
you understand.  At what point do either of us "fully" understand?

SC> How could we ever summarize how Psyber-L got *here*?

Maybe we don't need to do this summarizing.

> Or: learning of and about newcomers here, how might they appreciate this
> moment without a feel for the moments that preceded it?

I don't really see much here for newcomers here right now.  Walter is
doing a welcoming thing as he lets us know about their subscribing to
PSYBER-L.  But, where are the threads that are not grounded in
"psyber-history"?  Surely there are things to talk about here that could
invite those new to this place to join in dialogue.

> As for the psyche, psychology, and the aspects of the interpersonal it is a
> bit of a muddle given that there are numerous frameworks, disciplines,
> philosophies, rationales, psychologies, terminologies, catagories,
> therapies, sciences, etc.
>
> then there is the multiplicity of the individual and personal which is the
> moment-to-ment entirety which is both made disntinct as a partial sharing
> of our self into this space but is also an expression of the group as well
> as the group's expression through each of us.

Are we discussing the psyche, the psychology of cyberspace/psyberspace,
or are we debating "he said, she said"?  I do see value to what is
happening here.  I admit that much of it gets deleted unread ... sorry
JoAnne and Julienne ... but I find the dialogue now (and in the past) to
be one that is not of this place, but a continuation of one from another
place.  It is too hard to hold and make sense of in context to the
people and history of this pysberian community ... sort of like a
foreign infection.

> As I write this a.m. I am 'intimate' in my participation here, and on
> NETDYNAM, but also observe and not often participate in jung-psych, jung,
> and jung-circle, while sustaining a peripheral interest in about a half
> dozen other lists having to do with music.

And I have listened often to your voice on each of these forums, and in
doing so, I feel "connected" somehow to you because of the "intimacy"
that PSYBER-L has fostered.  I, too, have spoken more here in intimate
terms than I have anywhere else (even though I list-own JUNG and DNET)

> (you get my drift...)

Yes :)

> all the lists are performance space and performative spaces. Wow!

And in each space we present yet another face of self and so discover
yet other aspects of "self" that otherwise would remain shrouded in
shadow.

> Oddly, the Jung lists don't now, and historically have not, tended to
> observe their own dynamics introspectively at all. Instead they are spaces
> for leaping intellects, clarifications, strange replays, and outbursts of
> soul which recede. Yet, they differ from each other, also.

Very much so.  And in my opinion, they are too young/Jung to do this
work.  Perhaps given a sense of permanence given the history of the
Jungian groups being transient in owner/server terms, what is needed is
assurance that a debate once begun may be continued, assurance that the
words spoken will not be censored thus encouraging self-censorship.

> PSYBER-L remains my list home, but it is the list not only that I am most
> attached to, but also the list with the greatest tendency to evoke, to
> descend, to ascend, to know it's self
>
> to not know it's self.

And that is what is so vital ... knowing that one doesn't really know
but is willing to navel-gaze long enough to find the umbilical cord that
has long ago disappeared.

> And, why, do we sometimes follow the very first commands which come into
> our head? <g>

Or the first commands which come from the heart?

> Ha! We are here because what is hidden and even shunned wants to be known,
>
> wants to be creative,
>
> wants to create.

The shunned parts of "self", the shunned parts of "PSYBER-L", the
shunned parts of our relation within this paradoxical space somewhere in
cyberspace.

And, because I have an audience for my poetic odyssey which allows me to
see "self" in "others" in unique ways that f2f perhaps would preclude.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:47:43 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: no shift in the process, I guess
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Walter,

Intentions ... agenda ... meaning ... value ... structure ...

> My intentions?  I want to see a resolution ...  ok, to take my
> own prompting ... what is behind that?  I don't want people to
> leave ... i want us to have a sense of achievement.  Which would
> be to achieve what is in our description and charter ... to learn
> about leadership in cs, to learn about the psyche in cs, to form
> collegial relationship around our net psychological interests.
> To learn from this experience.  To feel some pride in (us) making
> a *transformation* happen.  Ok, beyond that:  I want us to
> collaborate on that so that we learn how to do that.  Why do i
> want that...

I begin to wonder about these things as well.  "Leadership" in
cyberspace? I begin to wonder if there is enough stuff here for
leadership to ever really take off as it would "naturally" in a f2f
environment.  Something about cyberspace democratizes relation so that
leadership shifts until it disappears entirely into a chaotic
leaderlessness that discomfits until one realises that all are leaders
leading "self" through interaction with the realities of "other" who do
not control/lead.  In this space/place none exist except in
relation/negotiation/collaboration/creation/construction.

It's so difficult to construct in this space/place when the community is
so vitally empowered and aware of each individual's power to construct
and create.  I think of the Expo '67 Habitat structure for a community
... amazing how it could hold together :)

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:54:51 +1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Meeseo

Amen.  A wonderful, inspiring gift of words.  Thankyou.

Barry

----------
> From: meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
> To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: [P] on language ( re: was Hello)
> Date: Wednesday, June 03, 1998 10:26 AM
>
> Dear Julienne
>
>
>                  Please...Please...............
>           Don't tell the past things....
>      Forget everything that hurts you.
> If you are hurt from somebody, you also hurt them.
>
> Life is truely too short to hate somebody and look back upon the bad
> past.
>
>                  Please ..please...
>         Forgive yourself and others......
> We are too fragile and have no energy to endure hates.
>
>
>                 Go outside
>          ...full of sweet aromas of roses
>                Sun shining
>           many birds whispering...
>
>
> Best wishes.
>
> Meeseo
>
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:15:48 EDT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         John Gerhart <JGerh50699@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Picking up an old thread
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HooN

Forgive my tardiness in responding to my earlier post regarding 1)seeing life
as black and white 2) getting some balance.  Perhaps I should have said I have
trouble seeing things in black and white.  I tend over-analyze situations and
to read into a given choice possible intentions of the other parties, my
intentions both surface and what may be buried, both good and bad.  I believe
you hit the crux of my delema by stqting that decisions are of a primary
binary nature.  I have diffaculty seeing only two, and know that my decision
has greater rpples in the web of life beyond what I perceive.  I have to run
to a doctors appointment, hope I can continue later.

John

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:28:16 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Nancy (the presumptuous newcomer)
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Nancy (the presumptuous newcomer) :)

>   Reflections on the List
>
>      both roach and roshi
>    honor deity with simple
>            authenticity

Another poet .... I love this!  I hope that you will be a noisy addition
to the PSYBER-L community.

Robert

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Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:37:07 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
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Simon,

Thanks for the words in response to the poetry.  There is a strange,
haunting beauty in the abyss.  I think that to realise this is important
in trying to hold to the aspects of abyss that show up here in PSYBER-L.
I regret that not being able to hold to the abyss with trust has led to
the departure of others such as Wilbur ... and I wonder about Void.

The place got cleaned up somewhat and we seem to have lost something,
some opportunity.  It is almost as though we have resorted to a lobotomy
in order to banish unwanted demons ... I know, they left of their own
will power ... Yet, when we look deep within, there are still the ghosts
and echoes and strange things that tell us that what we feared still
remains ........ within ....

Robert

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Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:06:13 -0700
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From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
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---Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET> wrote:
>
> Meeseo,
>
> But, Meeseo, the stories need to be told and not banished nor denied,
> sometimes they need to be acknowledged and released so that the
battered
> and bruised soul can be healed.


I am sorry to tell such a naive style in previous letter(to Julienne)
Of course, I could quote someone's sentences.
But in previous letter, I didn't use it.
 It was because I wanted to avoid another aggressive disputes.

  Robert.

I know what you mean.
And in a sense, you are right.
But  in some other sense, I don't agree with you.

We know the stories too much.
I was not here at that time when the disputes began.
But I know  the beginnings and results of the disputes very well.

*The stroies* are said *repeatedly* whenever there are chances.
Further, *the stories* have been said not by artistic
expressions(music, poem..etc)
      but in an *aggressive and self-defensive* way.

> This is why so many have resorted to
>telling their pain in story, in poetry, in painting, in song, in music
>... not to bury it, but to give it wings in order to be free of the
>pain.

As you know, that we can be healed by artistic expressions is
 because  their painful experiences and hurts are refined by the form
 and evoke sympathy in people's mind.

But I think this case is different from it.
In my feeling, They/we  are not healed by their disputes.
Further, they/we are hurting  each other more and more severely.
They evoke all kinds of bad memories and say " you are wrong,
I am right, you hurt me, I am hurt.. ..." repeatedly.

It's not an attitude searching for a true healing.
It's not a communication.
They don't listen to the opponent's voice.
They claim only the opponent's faults and their own hurts.

Robert,
Do you think that we/they can be healed
                              by such an aggressive talk?


Of course, As you told, we go inside and have to look at our deep mind..
There might be inner shadows, and cryings of wounded souls.
I know it.

But it's not everything.
 In inner mind, there are also full of lights and happiness and
calmness.

Robert
Look at your mind.
Shadows, hurts....they are only moves of the mind.(I remember your
comment to this idea)
They can be changed to  lights and delights in one moment.

We have to recognize our limits,
 but simultaneously have to believe our capacity free from our shadows.

Anyway, aggressive talk is helpless to heal our hurts.

Robert

I want to tell a lot, but I can't express my thoughts fully.
I am not a native speaker in English. so..

Best wishes

meeseo.


_________________________________________________________
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Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:51:14 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: shifting in the process
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On Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:34:58 -0600, you, Robert Longpre
<odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>, wrote:

>Are we discussing the psyche, the psychology of cyberspace/psyberspace,
>or are we debating "he said, she said"?  I do see value to what is
>happening here.  I admit that much of it gets deleted unread ... sorry
>JoAnne and Julienne ... but I find the dialogue now (and in the past) to
>be one that is not of this place, but a continuation of one from another
>place.  It is too hard to hold and make sense of in context to the
>people and history of this pysberian community ... sort of like a
>foreign infection.

Much of what Julienne and I have been discussing recently has to do
with history between us here on Psyber-L.  But since many people
ignored us at that time, it too is alien.  Lines were drawn to place
that outside.

I don't know if that's for good or ill, but there it is.

If I wrote the same things in poetry, would they be listened to?

-JoAnne

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Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:08:13 EDT
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Meeseo, Robert and others who wrote poetry, it is greatly appreciated,
especially by myself who has trouble writing it.  Since I can't make an
original contribution, I'll quote something from Rumi.

Best wishes to all and healing to Judith

John

I have lived
on the lip of
insanity, wanting to
know reasons, knocking
on a door.

It opens.

I've been knocking from the inside!

                                                    Rumi

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Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:22:49 -0700
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
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Meeseo,

I'm appreciate the wisdom stated both plainly and poetically by you.

>> This is why so many have resorted to
>>telling their pain in story, in poetry, in painting, in song, in music
>>... not to bury it, but to give it wings in order to be free of the
>>pain.

>As you know, that we can be healed by artistic expressions is
> because  their painful experiences and hurts are refined by the form
> and evoke sympathy in people's mind.

I, too, can wonder about other worthwhile modes which refine and heal. But,
I don't know how to engage those modes if I don't wish to. The greatest
learning in my own life has been the reward for either being ready, or
having exhausted my resources, or even finding the very end of my wits (!)
and, perhaps, these are all forms of readiness.

****

>I want to tell a lot, but I can't express my thoughts fully.
>I am not a native speaker in English. so..
>
>Best wishes
>
>meeseo.

You are a full speaker! It's not my business, but I would like to know more
about what your path has been like
and
is.

(Typical naive american prying, yes?)

Regards,

HooN

           \\\|///
         \\ ~   ~ //
          (  @ @  )
 -------oo00-(_)-00oo---------
|                             |
|     Stephen Calhoun         |
|       hoon@apk.net          |
| http://junior.apk.net/~hoon |
|                             |
 -----------------------------

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Date:         Thu, 4 Jun 1998 02:25:55 +0300
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From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
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Hoo HooN! Hi Robert, Meeseo and all!

HooN,  thanks for  your  gentle  touching. You ask how I  accomplished such
things ( i.e.  discussions on various items)  in the past here.  I,  too,
wonder how.  Maybe  it  was the group-spirit which  inspired me to write.=20
      In  fact I have had hands full  of  work  for couple of months. I have
been uncommunicative and  asocial  also in real life. I=92m like that =
 always,
when I=92m  writing  some =94own=94.  It must  be  called  attachment in =
 which
attached  is  incapable of any other conduct.  Perhaps I=92m a monomaniac.
=94But  after all, writing is  nothing more than a guided dream=94 as Jorge=
 Luis
Borges put it.   Just a week ago I finnished one work. Now  I  socialize
with  my  neglected family and friends - for a while -before  I=92ll plunge
into  the  next  work.   Heaven knows and dreams show what it will be,  but
I quess - surrealistic  short stories.

Meeseo and Robert,  your  posts  stirred in me some  unformulated thoughts
about  the form.
Robert  wrote, that  pain need  to be  express.=20
>This is why so many have resorted to
>telling their pain in story, in poetry, in painting, in song, in music
>... not to bury it, but to give it wings in order to be free of the
>pain.=20
     But  I say, that it is not  possible  to tell pain  or  an experience
of any kind  in  story or in poetry before  being  distanced from it.  I
think  your poem  Robert,
=94White hugging branches which bend
Thin yet bearing the weight gracefully
A tension that becomes art
Supple in their flexibility
Branches reach for their roots

Yet, one branch has broken
Rigid at its core, hardened,
It was unable to suffer change
Suffer tension ...=94
   Without tension there is no art. And  without  form  the  content of
art  arouses too much  anxiety.   Form functions as means=B4of distancing  (
btw, my means are humour and  irony;  the more pain, the more humour).
Literature often  deals  with  threating  material,   hatred, greed, envy
and  other dark,  anarchistic and terrible  items -  in other words our  own
unacceptable  emotions.   But what to say about our formless Psyber-list?
I  like it.  Sometimes I  also like  arguing, but  I preferred that  someone
else than me is right.  I enjoyed  arguing with  Wilbur, and mysterious
Void. too.  But  Julienne=92s and JoAnne=92s dispute is different. Meeseo, =
 I
agreed with you, it is  self-defensive,  and boring,.  It is not refreshing
as  a good  disputation may be.=20

On language -  a short  educational  Sufi story  in conclusion:
=94A foolish man was raving at a donkey. It  took no notice. A wiser man who
was watching: =94Idiot! The donkey will never learn your language - better
that you should observe silence and instead master the tongue of the
donkey.=94  It was told  by Saadi of Shiraz.=20

My best wishes
Anita
=20
                    =20



   =20
     =20

 =20

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Date:         Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:45:31 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: no shift in the process, I guess
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>I begin to wonder about these things as well.  "Leadership" in
>cyberspace? I begin to wonder if there is enough stuff here for
>leadership to ever really take off as it would "naturally" in a f2f
>environment.  Something about cyberspace democratizes relation so that
>leadership shifts until it disappears entirely into a chaotic
>leaderlessness that discomfits until one realises that all are leaders
>leading "self" through interaction with the realities of "other" who do
>not control/lead.  In this space/place none exist except in
>relation/negotiation/collaboration/creation/construction.

I would suggest: *seemingly* chaotic leaderlessness.

Robert, your description here reminds me of a free jazz ensemble, where the
music arises spontaneously out of deep listening.


>It's so difficult to construct in this space/place when the community is
>so vitally empowered and aware of each individual's power to construct
>and create.

What do you see as difficulties? And what do you mean by 'construct' and
'create' in this context?


>  I think of the Expo '67 Habitat structure for a community
>... amazing how it could hold together :)

What was the structure? What made its cohesion amazing?


Simon

PS. Robert, I'd be interested to know how you read these questions to you.
Do they seem like a challenge? Or an attempt at careful listening?

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Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:11:38 -0600
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Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left...
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Anita,

>    Btw, some nights ago I dreamt about  the list, or  I associated  the
> dream with the list, because  on  my front-door there was  a text: " The
> Dictionary editorial staff  I.M.R.I".  Below  the text there was  a big
> photograph of Robert as a baby. I  don't know what it means. Expect that I
> ought to use  a dictionary,  because so  many words are beyond my
> comprehension.

I do have a photograph of me as a baby.  I hope your photograph included
the little ball that I was holding in mine.  My hair is combed up into a
curl which in some funny way reminds me of the spiked hair styles that
are worn by some adolescents.  By the way, I do use a dictionary often
as I too find that all languages are so difficult to tame.

>     According to  Marie- Louise von Franz, "the  word shadow is simply a
> name we use for the fact that most people are not fully  aware of all their
> personality traits. We like to imagine ourselves as being intelligent, or
> generous or good-natured or practically gifted, and what not. But we have
> other qualities in our complete personality, inferior qualities that we are
> not so aware of. Our relationship to our  surroundings tells us about them,
> and in quarrels they come out... Whenever we are tired or under pressure,
> another personality often breaks through...."   To  Franz's mind  the shadow
> is really our best social function." It  integrates us into the group. With
> our  good qualities we  are above the group. With our shadow we are man
> among men and human, all-too human."

Hmm-mm-mn?  I must give my shadow a little more lease as I get tired of
the solitary confinements of living in good behaviour ... from youth, a
saint-in-training ... in adulthood, tainted and tarnished and hopeful
that if I try harder I might escape the swamp for a few moments.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:15:12 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Books on the Social Aspects of Computing, 1996-1997
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Walter and all,

I have just received notice of this site constructed by Phil Agre.  A
quick perusal of the site tells me that this is truly an invaluable site
for any who are interested in the topic (which seems to fit well with
the whole concept of PSYBER-L).

 http://weber.ucsd.edu/~pagre/recent-books.html

Robert

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Date:         Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:21:51 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
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>Simon,
>
>Thanks for the words in response to the poetry.  There is a strange,
>haunting beauty in the abyss.  I think that to realise this is important
>in trying to hold to the aspects of abyss that show up here in PSYBER-L.
>I regret that not being able to hold to the abyss with trust has led to
>the departure of others such as Wilbur ... and I wonder about Void.

Robert, I like this phrase: "hold to the abyss with trust"

It seems to me that when arguments don't lead anywhere it's partly because
there's no underlying trust. If there is trust then there's a degree of
listening, because there's a sense that "the other" has something
worthwhile to say.


Re meaning:

If there is to be meaning in staring into the abyss, surely it must reside
in hope, in a belief that something beneficial will result, that there will
be a going forward (or maybe a spiralling upward) rather than merely a
going in (vicious) circles. Otherwise the process is meaningless. Without
hope there is no meaning. Seen in one way: the hope is that negative
patterns will be ended instead of endlessly repeated. Also: hope lies in
seeing that you value yourself enough to be able to hope that the negative
patterns can be ended.


Re beauty:

I recall a while back HooN commenting that truth isn't always beautiful
(itself a beautiful truth, I think). I'm tempted to say that while truth
may not always be beautiful, the *revealing* of truth always is, because it
has the positive effect of burning, cleansing, releasing... But then I
wonder if sometimes it isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
destructive...


Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty without
kindness, or kindness without honesty? (these questions sparked by
discussion on another list - serendipity again)


And then there is always the question of 'Whose truth?', and the issue of
manipulation.

If truth is a content data stream, might the full bandwidth also contain a
control data stream?

Thinking also of steganography, an encoding process whereby the real
(intended) message is hidden in the least significant bits of seemingly
innocent digitised content (an image of a sunny day in the countryside may
contain a recipe for making explosives).

Maybe the revealing of truth is the decoding process, and the truth itself
is the decoded message. The innocent picture is shattered by the revealing
of the darker message (the 'truth') that it had hidden. How can there ever
again be faith in seemingly innocent pictures?


>The place got cleaned up somewhat and we seem to have lost something,
>some opportunity.

An opportunity to put right what went wrong, perhaps?


>It is almost as though we have resorted to a lobotomy
>in order to banish unwanted demons ...

What do you feel has been removed? Anger? Authentic expression? Argument?


>I know, they left of their own
>will power ... Yet, when we look deep within, there are still the ghosts
>and echoes and strange things that tell us that what we feared still
>remains ........ within ....
>
>Robert

Better to acknowledge the demons within than to demonise others...

Honesty starts at home.

Simon

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Date:         Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:24:48 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
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On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:21:51 +0100, you, "Simon G. Trask"
<simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>, wrote:

>It seems to me that when arguments don't lead anywhere it's partly because
>there's no underlying trust. If there is trust then there's a degree of
>listening, because there's a sense that "the other" has something
>worthwhile to say.

>If there is to be meaning in staring into the abyss, surely it must reside
>in hope, in a belief that something beneficial will result, that there will
>be a going forward (or maybe a spiralling upward) rather than merely a
>going in (vicious) circles. Otherwise the process is meaningless. Without
>hope there is no meaning. Seen in one way: the hope is that negative
>patterns will be ended instead of endlessly repeated. Also: hope lies in
>seeing that you value yourself enough to be able to hope that the negative
>patterns can be ended.

I resonate with both of the above, and realize that I must have given
up a lot of my hopes about Julienne and me somewhere along the line.

>Re beauty:
>
>I recall a while back HooN commenting that truth isn't always beautiful
>(itself a beautiful truth, I think). I'm tempted to say that while truth
>may not always be beautiful, the *revealing* of truth always is, because it
>has the positive effect of burning, cleansing, releasing... But then I
>wonder if sometimes it isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
>destructive...
>
>
>Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty without
>kindness, or kindness without honesty? (these questions sparked by
>discussion on another list - serendipity again)

I prefer honesty pretty much every time.  I think Julienne would
prefer the kindness -- I'm recalling her saying that she would like
this to be nice and friendly space, all happy and rosy, and I think
that's contradictory to human nature and must of necessity be lies and
bullshit.

Can this ever be sorted out?

>And then there is always the question of 'Whose truth?', and the issue of
>manipulation.

Oh yeah.

>If truth is a content data stream, might the full bandwidth also contain a
>control data stream?

Interesting.  But that's information too, about whoever creates the
control stream and the intent of that person.

>Thinking also of steganography, an encoding process whereby the real
>(intended) message is hidden in the least significant bits of seemingly
>innocent digitised content (an image of a sunny day in the countryside may
>contain a recipe for making explosives).

It often does!

>Maybe the revealing of truth is the decoding process, and the truth itself
>is the decoded message. The innocent picture is shattered by the revealing
>of the darker message (the 'truth') that it had hidden. How can there ever
>again be faith in seemingly innocent pictures?

Why would anyone who's lived more than 20 years have faith in
"innocent" pictures?

>>The place got cleaned up somewhat and we seem to have lost something,
>>some opportunity.
>
>An opportunity to put right what went wrong, perhaps?

Again, I'm losing faith that anything can be "put right."

>>It is almost as though we have resorted to a lobotomy
>>in order to banish unwanted demons ...
>
>What do you feel has been removed? Anger? Authentic expression? Argument?
>
>
>>I know, they left of their own
>>will power ... Yet, when we look deep within, there are still the ghosts
>>and echoes and strange things that tell us that what we feared still
>>remains ........ within ....
>>
>>Robert
>
>Better to acknowledge the demons within than to demonise others...

Oh, I have demons.  They're just not boiling anyone in oil.

>Honesty starts at home.

We'll see.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:03:48 -0400
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From:         "Nancy S. Smith" <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left.....

            Members List

        may rilled into june
with 'gains' outweighing 'loses'
       mourning not electra

        from nancy (not even senryu...)



On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:15:24 -0400 Automatic digest processor
<LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM> writes:
>There are 3 messages totalling 156 lines in this issue.
>
>Topics of the day:
>
>  1. If we were the last ones left...
>  2. Books on the Social Aspects of Computing, 1996-1997
>  3. Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date:    Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:11:38 -0600
>From:    Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
>Subject: Re: If we were the last ones left...
>
>Anita,
>
>>    Btw, some nights ago I dreamt about  the list, or  I associated
>the
>> dream with the list, because  on  my front-door there was  a text: "
>The
>> Dictionary editorial staff  I.M.R.I".  Below  the text there was  a
>big
>> photograph of Robert as a baby. I  don't know what it means. Expect
>that I
>> ought to use  a dictionary,  because so  many words are beyond my
>> comprehension.
>
>I do have a photograph of me as a baby.  I hope your photograph
>included
>the little ball that I was holding in mine.  My hair is combed up into
>a
>curl which in some funny way reminds me of the spiked hair styles that
>are worn by some adolescents.  By the way, I do use a dictionary often
>as I too find that all languages are so difficult to tame.
>
>>     According to  Marie- Louise von Franz, "the  word shadow is
>simply a
>> name we use for the fact that most people are not fully  aware of
>all their
>> personality traits. We like to imagine ourselves as being
>intelligent, or
>> generous or good-natured or practically gifted, and what not. But we
>have
>> other qualities in our complete personality, inferior qualities that
>we are
>> not so aware of. Our relationship to our  surroundings tells us
>about them,
>> and in quarrels they come out... Whenever we are tired or under
>pressure,
>> another personality often breaks through...."   To  Franz's mind
>the shadow
>> is really our best social function." It  integrates us into the
>group. With
>> our  good qualities we  are above the group. With our shadow we are
>man
>> among men and human, all-too human."
>
>Hmm-mm-mn?  I must give my shadow a little more lease as I get tired
>of
>the solitary confinements of living in good behaviour ... from youth,
>a
>saint-in-training ... in adulthood, tainted and tarnished and hopeful
>that if I try harder I might escape the swamp for a few moments.
>
>Robert
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:15:12 -0600
>From:    Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
>Subject: Books on the Social Aspects of Computing, 1996-1997
>
>Walter and all,
>
>I have just received notice of this site constructed by Phil Agre.  A
>quick perusal of the site tells me that this is truly an invaluable
>site
>for any who are interested in the topic (which seems to fit well with
>the whole concept of PSYBER-L).
>
> http://weber.ucsd.edu/~pagre/recent-books.html
>
>Robert
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:21:51 +0100
>From:    "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>Subject: Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
>
>>Simon,
>>
>>Thanks for the words in response to the poetry.  There is a strange,
>>haunting beauty in the abyss.  I think that to realise this is
>important
>>in trying to hold to the aspects of abyss that show up here in
>PSYBER-L.
>>I regret that not being able to hold to the abyss with trust has led
>to
>>the departure of others such as Wilbur ... and I wonder about Void.
>
>Robert, I like this phrase: "hold to the abyss with trust"
>
>It seems to me that when arguments don't lead anywhere it's partly
>because
>there's no underlying trust. If there is trust then there's a degree
>of
>listening, because there's a sense that "the other" has something
>worthwhile to say.
>
>
>Re meaning:
>
>If there is to be meaning in staring into the abyss, surely it must
>reside
>in hope, in a belief that something beneficial will result, that there
>will
>be a going forward (or maybe a spiralling upward) rather than merely a
>going in (vicious) circles. Otherwise the process is meaningless.
>Without
>hope there is no meaning. Seen in one way: the hope is that negative
>patterns will be ended instead of endlessly repeated. Also: hope lies
>in
>seeing that you value yourself enough to be able to hope that the
>negative
>patterns can be ended.
>
>
>Re beauty:
>
>I recall a while back HooN commenting that truth isn't always
>beautiful
>(itself a beautiful truth, I think). I'm tempted to say that while
>truth
>may not always be beautiful, the *revealing* of truth always is,
>because it
>has the positive effect of burning, cleansing, releasing... But then I
>wonder if sometimes it isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
>destructive...
>
>
>Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty
>without
>kindness, or kindness without honesty? (these questions sparked by
>discussion on another list - serendipity again)
>
>
>And then there is always the question of 'Whose truth?', and the issue
>of
>manipulation.
>
>If truth is a content data stream, might the full bandwidth also
>contain a
>control data stream?
>
>Thinking also of steganography, an encoding process whereby the real
>(intended) message is hidden in the least significant bits of
>seemingly
>innocent digitised content (an image of a sunny day in the countryside
>may
>contain a recipe for making explosives).
>
>Maybe the revealing of truth is the decoding process, and the truth
>itself
>is the decoded message. The innocent picture is shattered by the
>revealing
>of the darker message (the 'truth') that it had hidden. How can there
>ever
>again be faith in seemingly innocent pictures?
>
>
>>The place got cleaned up somewhat and we seem to have lost something,
>>some opportunity.
>
>An opportunity to put right what went wrong, perhaps?
>
>
>>It is almost as though we have resorted to a lobotomy
>>in order to banish unwanted demons ...
>
>What do you feel has been removed? Anger? Authentic expression?
>Argument?
>
>
>>I know, they left of their own
>>will power ... Yet, when we look deep within, there are still the
>ghosts
>>and echoes and strange things that tell us that what we feared still
>>remains ........ within ....
>>
>>Robert
>
>Better to acknowledge the demons within than to demonise others...
>
>Honesty starts at home.
>
>Simon
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of PSYBER-L Digest - 3 Jun 1998 to 4 Jun 1998 (#1998-110)
>*************************************************************
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:48:01 +0300
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: on language - and  truth
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Hi Robert, Simon, JoAnne and   all,

This is a confession. I'm a  liar.  I wrote two days ago:

>Sometimes I  also like  arguing, but  I preferred that  someone
>else than me is right.
It must be: Sometimes I  like  to argue, but I prefer that someone  else
than me is wrong..
I shouldn't  write  tired .  In that  state my brains keep dozing off,  the
shadow  steps in and begins to  express odd opinions.  Interesting that it
prefers to be  wrong!

One of the  best  side of the Psyber-List is that it  mirrors back  the
shadow . For example  Julienne can   connect with her anger  - perhaps  at
first time  in  her life -   thanks to JoAnne,  me and some others.  And it
may be an integrative   process  for her.  Maybe her trap is  kindness.

Simon wonders if  sometimes  truth  > isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
destructive.
     But one of  the  head ideologist of the  Western  culture, Jesus, who
said something that, the Truth  will make you free?
    JoAnne. asked, whose  truth ?  That's  the dilemma.  There are  so many
truths in the  world.  Too many  human beings  have died  for sometimes this
and sometime that truth.   I  suspect all truths.  That's why  - perhaps -
my shadow  expressed that it  don't  like to be right.
" You who seek  the truth
  seek the wall.
  The stone, the other stone, the other.
  lean your back or your forehead
  against the wall
  upright in the right
  with the small coins in your pocket
  noiseless
  gold or silver
  unrefunded
  And dream"
It  was  written by Yannis Ritsos, Greek poet,  during  the  dictatorship of
Junta, when  he was first  arrested by the police,  then  sent to  the
dentition camp of  Leros. After an international outcry he was permitted to
return to his home-island  Samos, where his movements were restricted and
always shadowed of spies, mail was forbidden him, and no persons other than
those of his immediate family was allowed to approach him or to speak to
him, not even his neighbours or townspeople.

Robert, you wrote  in your post: "If we were last ones left... ": >I hope
your photograph included the little ball that I was holding in mine.
 No, I didn't see the ball.  I'm not yet  a clairvoyant.  Wait for  twenty
years - perhaps then.

Cheers to all
Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 07:59:12 +1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
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Hi Simon

> Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty without
> kindness, or kindness without honesty?

There are other choices.  Unlike 'military intelligence', honesty and
kindness are not mutually exclusive words.  The older I get, the more I see
the thousand shades of grey between the two.  I'll go for honesty *with*
kindness every time.

Call me old fashioned . . .

Barry
____________________________________
Barry Kennedy<kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Jun 1998 21:01:20 EDT
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Subject:      Re: Truth
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Simon said
>I recall a while back HooN commenting that truth isn't always beautiful
>(itself a beautiful truth, I think). I'm tempted to say that while truth
>may not always be beautiful, the *revealing* of truth always is, because it
>has the positive effect of burning, cleansing, releasing... But then I
>wonder if sometimes it isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
>destructive...

One can't grow without truth and growth is sometimes painful and damaging to
our old manner of thinking and living.



>And then there is always the question of 'Whose truth?', and the issue of
>manipulation.

Truth, I speak from a spiritual perspective, is unchanging-eternal.  Facts
change.  My perspective may differ from yours, and neither perspective may be
truth.
Science is based on facts, not necessarily truth.  Witness the number of
scientific ideas and theories which have changed over man's history.

>Better to acknowledge the demons within than to demonise others...

And some people have a real knack for unleasinmg our demons!


Joanne said
>Why would anyone who's lived more than 20 years have faith in
>"innocent" pictures?

Because they are innocent!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:42:40 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
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Simon,

> What do you feel has been removed? Anger? Authentic expression? Argument?

With the exorcisms (self exorcised) there seems to have been a loss of
passion and a swelling of self-doubt with the group.  This has
manifested in a self-study (psyber-l study, a rationale-study), a naval
gazing so to speak.  The shadow banished, ferments and waits.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:43:27 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: on language - and  truth
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Anita,

> It must be: Sometimes I  like  to argue, but I prefer that someone  else
> than me is wrong..
> I shouldn't  write  tired .  In that  state my brains keep dozing off,  the
> shadow  steps in and begins to  express odd opinions.  Interesting that it
> prefers to be  wrong!

Being tired, the ego funtion is not as rigorous in being the censoring
gatekeeper.  What an opportunity for repressed aspects of self to
finally have their own voice.  Perhaps being wrong is just a different
of being right as there is different learning and experiences added to
one's dawning, expanding consciousness.

>      But one of  the  head ideologist of the  Western  culture, Jesus, who
> said something that, the Truth  will make you free?

Which truth?  Perhaps the truth of self being more than ego, that self
is also shadow, self is both lightness and darkness, all that is and
alll that isn't.  Truths are not measured objectively, not measured
morally, not measured functionally.  Truth is not equal to law, nor to
theology, nor to power.  Truth is all that is and all that isn't.  Truth
is "being".

> Robert, you wrote  in your post: "If we were last ones left... ": >I hope
> your photograph included the little ball that I was holding in mine.
>  No, I didn't see the ball.  I'm not yet  a clairvoyant.  Wait for  twenty
> years - perhaps then.

Okay, I'll ask in twenty years and you can tell me the design found on
the ball.  No cheating, I can't have you looking at the picture so I'll
hide the photo should you decide to visit with the motive of spying the
answer that now sits on my living room wall among the other family
photographs.

Robert
>
> Cheers to all
> Anita
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 03:08:27 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
In-Reply-To:  <199806052004.IAA15907@cyclops.xtra.co.nz>
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At 07:59 AM 6/6/98 +1200, Barry wrote:
>Hi Simon
>
>> Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty without
>> kindness, or kindness without honesty?
>
>There are other choices.  Unlike 'military intelligence', honesty and
>kindness are not mutually exclusive words.  The older I get, the more I see
>the thousand shades of grey between the two.  I'll go for honesty *with*
>kindness every time.
>
>Call me old fashioned . . .

I don't think you're old fashioned. I think honesty without kindness
probably is dishonest in that it has an agenda beyond the purported
honesty.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 03:55:53 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
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At 10:48 PM 6/5/98 +0300, Anita wrote:

>One of the  best  side of the Psyber-List is that it  mirrors back  the
>shadow . For example  Julienne can   connect with her anger  - perhaps  at
>first time  in  her life -   thanks to JoAnne,  me and some others.  And it
>may be an integrative   process  for her.  Maybe her trap is  kindness.

Oh Anita,

I am sure you mean well...and I suppose you feel I should thank you and
JoAnne and others who have tried to "help" me get in touch with my anger.
Why do you feel I have never been in touch with my anger? Because I
don't think it's either helpful or healthy to attack people when one is
angry? Because I feel that there are other
more kind and empathic and ultimately more effective ways of dealing with
what makes us angry instead of lashing out at others?

I don't think anger is any more "honest" than perpetual smiley faces and
spiritual verses. Anger is a response we have when threatened or scared,
for instance. To be angry at someone who hurts us, or threatens us, is one
thing - to act out that anger is another. I prefer to go dig up the garden,
or play a few sets of tennis, and to think about what was triggered in me
that made me angry, to simply lashing out with rageful responses which simply
escalate a situation and everyone's feelings. Of course, if someone hoped
to make me (or anyone else) angry, then not responding in anger can also
escalate the situation.

I have seen too much violence in my life, from vicious wars to torture to
murder, to see that sort of acting out as
helpful or healing in any way. My children (22 and 25) and I get angry with
each other fairly frequently, but we have found it too painful to stay in
that state. We use a lot of humour, we laugh at ourselves, we have family
jokes, and ways of relating to each other when we're stressed and angry.
But we've also learned to not always deal with things when we're angry.
We'll go off and do other things, think, do chores - whatever.  We talk a
lot, and we are concerned about each other, and so we try to understand
what has happened - why we may be upset and angry. Although the first
instinct is to be angry at "the other" we are well aware that the anger is
about our own stuff. And so our conversations are not usually about what
someone "did" to someone else, but what the one who is feeling anger is
upset about. Rather than flaming out at each other, we usually do a lot of
consoling of whomever of us is feeling angry. When they were tiny, my
response was not to spank them for being angry, or to yell at them that it
wasn't "nice" to be angry, but to hold them and comfort them while they
cried, complained, whatever - and got out and expressed whatever was
scaring them and coming out as anger.


Anger isn't healthy or unhealthy - it just is. It's a normal human response
to particular types of experiences.
It's how we handle that anger that determines whether there's an escalating
problem or a resolution of some kind - insight into what triggered the
anger, and ways to deal with it and channel it creatively.

>Simon wonders if  sometimes  truth  > isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
>destructive.
>     But one of  the  head ideologist of the  Western  culture, Jesus, who
>said something that, the Truth  will make you free?

Well, who knows what any of the Jesus figures said? We only have second hand
"authorities" at best. The Bible is a pretty vicious book full of
retribution and murder
and very hateful ideas and beliefs.

>    JoAnne. asked, whose  truth ?  That's  the dilemma.  There are  so many
>truths in the  world.  Too many  human beings  have died  for sometimes this
>and sometime that truth.   I  suspect all truths.  That's why  - perhaps -
>my shadow  expressed that it  don't  like to be right.

The point is to allow others to have their truths, and not to insist that one
person's truth is the only truth, and not to force one's personal truth on
others. How many people have died for political and religious truths
forced on them by others? Look at the philosophers, scientists, and
others whose lives were destroyed or taken from them because someone
else insisted that their truth was a lie? The Catholic Church is still
apologizing for the horrendous acts it committed in the name of "truth".

When it comes to "truth", a little less self-righteousness and a lot more
humility and civility would be far more helpful.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 11:03:23 -0700
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's honest truth
In-Reply-To:  <19980606075617.BPVY3729@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Julienne writes,

>Oh Anita,
>
>I am sure you mean well...and I suppose you feel I should thank you and
>JoAnne and others who have tried to "help" me get in touch with my anger.

[snip]

***

Julienne, what you write struck me as an honest statement of your values
and expression of your truth in this moment.

***

My own experience is that I must discover my own issues for my self, and:
timing is everything!

What follows from this is, for me: that the central issue for HooN at any
moment is the one Stephen recognizes and is engaging, (and hopefully a bit
of Grace is seeping in to aid the engagement,) and this is true, regardless
of any other, 'outside' attempts to 'help' me. (I call this the 'issue that
I am able in'.)

It seems to me, Julienne, that what you have been through in the past years
is huge.

Whatever helpful observations or prescriptions which might be made, *with
the best of intentions even*, are not adequate to make a person 'able in
that issue' nor should it work out so.  (My own framework is determined in
this regard: our *ableness* is made by our intention combined with the
Grace of God and God's Mercy and Compassion. All of this, for me, directed
at a single point in the future when, literally, my ableness must be
directed toward the central issue, God's Judgement. I'm painfully aware I'm
rather a screw-up, not forward->looking, in this respect.)

***

Still, sometimes those attempts have made a big difference. But, my
experience is that I can be shown by many others the key, the lock, the
door any number of times, but only God and my intention can put my hand on
the key. Grace fused with intention.

(Intention, again...)

***

HooN

***

Anger is not my central issue (today!), but, here's what helps me, no
matter where anger is in relation to my life. (Literally called the
*initiate's prayer*).

This day I will be a faithful servent of God. Please God, will that I be on
my guard against wrath, falsehood, hatred, and quarrelsomeness, and will
forgive those who wound me.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 11:03:32 -0700
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      questions about language, anger, being
In-Reply-To:  <19980606075617.BPVY3729@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne writes (in response to Anita suggesting "Julienne can connect with
her anger - perhaps at first time in her life")

>To be angry at someone who hurts us, or threatens us, is one
>thing - to act out that anger is another.

***

Let me wander about *anger* in a general way.

In these few lines we have something of the 'world of anger' without making
too many distinctions about the 'order of anger'.

So, I note:

connecting with anger
to be anger
acting out anger

***

This is also about with intent/intention? or not?

***

I read something written here: call it *A*. My sensing of *A* (or
interpretation,) is that it is:

not factual
not true
not fair
not complete
not kind
not logical
not [ fill in the blank ]

***

I do not agree with what somebody else writes. Next, I then find myself
becoming 'upset'. Next, I am 'maddened' into anger.

***

Now here are my questions given one assumption. That assumption is this:

(1) Individuals may intend to observe their physical and cognitive self
mindfully.

Given that assumption as primary, (and, of course pardoning the assumptions
implicit in the language I
'll choose to frame my questions!) [q1] what might we learn from engaging
this process of self observation?

q2 Is there a point reached when we move from *upsetness* to *anger*?

q3 Having become *angry* what kinds of responses to this *being angry* are
*acting out* and what kinds of responses are not *acting out*?

q4 Is there a difference in acting angrily and 'acting out our anger'?

q5 What changes in intention apparently take place in moving us from *being
angry* to *acting anger out*?

q6 What responses to the 'object of our anger' are clearly not *acting out*?

q7 What are the clear differences in the nature of our response to *reading
what others write that we disagree with for any reason* between responses
made from a state of

disagreement?
upsetness?
anger?

q8 Is it okay to add:

fear?
sadness?
fury?
passion?
idealism?

***

q9 Do these qualities of *beingfeeling* intermix?

***

HooN


***

q10

nobility?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:03:34 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Meeseo
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Meeseo,

It sometimes is hard to hold onto the tensions that come out of
arguement and misunderstandings that we hear as we sit on the sidelines,
especially when the nature of this medium draws us into conversation,
into the fringes of the disputes.  There is "worth" that has come out of
it.  Your little poem and my response to it are but examples of this
"worth".

> We know the stories too much.
> I was not here at that time when the disputes began.
> But I know  the beginnings and results of the disputes very well.

As painful as these disputes are to those who are central to them AND to
those who witness them, there is some need being met in clinging so
desperately to the disputes.  That we have held here speaks of some need
for ourselves as well, some very uncomfortable need that perhaps is not
even recognised, needs that would rather be denied.

> *The stories* are said *repeatedly* whenever there are chances.
> Further, *the stories* have been said not by artistic
> expressions(music, poem..etc)

The stories are told from "gut" places.  Like the raw materials that are
used in alchemy, materials that are dank and dark, these "gut" stories,
given the right cooking conditions within this cooking container called
PSYBER-L, may become transformed into "gold" into art.

> But I think this case is different from it.
> In my feeling, They/we  are not healed by their disputes.
> Further, they/we are hurting  each other more and more severely.
> They evoke all kinds of bad memories and say " you are wrong,
> I am right, you hurt me, I am hurt.. ..." repeatedly.

But they do end up feeling even more intensely their hurts.  With a
triggered awareness coming from the tension of the disputes which hurt
so much, they may come to recognise, we may come to recognise, the roots
of hurt within "self" and move/transcend through the hurt to a newer
vision of self, and self in relation.

> It's not an attitude searching for a true healing.
> It's not a communication.
> They don't listen to the opponent's voice.
> They claim only the opponent's faults and their own hurts.

And, so do we.  Each of these trigger within us as others constellated
in distant relation to the dispute, our own attitudes, our own faults,
our own hurts.  Thinking we have buried these and have moved on with our
lives, our "reaction" to these disputes shows us the fault of such
thoughts.  These things are again unearthed and we face our own pain and
garbage.  Can we face them and accept them, even embrace them so that we
can truly become unstuck? Or, will we again banish them to the depths
with denial as we implore others to cease their bickering so that we can
have peace from our own demons?

> I want to tell a lot, but I can't express my thoughts fully.
> I am not a native speaker in English. so..

Meeseo.  That you speak so fully with the English language is testament
of your desire to communicate.  I understand you very well, perhaps
better than I understand the voices of many others here.  You speak from
your core and that always finds ways to bridge to other.

thinking of you this Saturday morning as once again the disputes rage on

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 14:07:55 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
In-Reply-To:  <3578E4E0.62EA@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Robert, and All,

At 12:42 AM 6/6/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Simon,
>
>> What do you feel has been removed? Anger? Authentic expression? Argument?
>
>With the exorcisms (self exorcised) there seems to have been a loss of
>passion and a swelling of self-doubt with the group.  This has
>manifested in a self-study (psyber-l study, a rationale-study), a naval
>gazing so to speak.  The shadow banished, ferments and waits.

Ah Robert, the Shadow knows...:)

I have been watching the process on this list over JoAnne and I, Void,
Wilbur, etc.

I can't speak about Void - I wasn't here, and came into the void that
was created as he left by arriving on the List right as he departed, I
gather. That I think is an important thought to keep in mind. I think
this list probably had a lot of unfinished business with Void which
needed to either be handled or be dumped somewhere. It seems
to me the List chose to dump it instead of processing it.

I arrived and saw a very angry List, where a number of people
wrote letters full of cursing, raging accusations, which seemed,
to me, to be a little nutsy. (I am purposely not using jargony
psychological terms.) I am suggesting it was a temporary blowup
which can happen in any family without threatening the family's
very integrity. Of course, if these are repeated and become the
family's "normal" way of relating, then issues become more serious.

I tried the first time, and again this time, to back away at a certain
point where I felt that my attempts to be reasonable and to "explain"
were just not being heard. Although I had somehow been drawn
into the main lines of the fray, I wanted to get out of there and not be
stuck in that mode. But it didn't work. I found myself feeling responsible,

wondering at each of several turns whether I "needed" to say something
rather than just stay out. I wondered whether I was avoiding something
in myself that I needed to face.

I don't feel comfortable with anger - it's distressing to feel so out of
control
and to realize that there's a part of me which isn't acting or emoting in as
spiritual and always-kind ways as I would like to think I could. But I try
not to bash myself over the head about it, because I don't expect, in
this lifetime, to be able to banish all of my neurobiological wounds.
However, I think this List is very conflicted about anger.

There have been transitions. There was the free-for-all stage, where
a number of people said very outrageous and heedlessly hurtful
things to each other. Conciliatory statements were interpreted
as hostile or self-serving. A battle was joined. When I dropped
out of it, because it didn't seem to me to be helpful, and also, the
first time, because I couldn't emotionally deal with it in the face of
my parents' deaths, the conversation continued about me anyway.
People couldn't drop it.

When it all came to a head, several list members left. Other
list members then expressed mourning statements. I don't know
the whole story about who left the List. We do know that some of
those who expressed the most anger left, such as Wilbur. But I
would expect that there were others, silent ones, who left because
they didn't see that expressed rage and attack as any wonderful
process, but as something painful which they wanted to avoid.

When this last round began, with JoAnne mentioning a few times
that she had been removed from my List, I decided not to engage

her statements. I just felt as though, "Oh - here we go again", and
I saw no likelihood that anything positive would be gained by
reengaging.

However, Walter seemed to be mourning the lack of resolution, so
I tried again. Just because Walter said something? No...because
I also have my concerns about lack of resolution, concerns about
how we all handle anger, truth" and the other issues which have been
bandied around here. I am concerned that maybe I am "wrong",
maybe there are other approaches I could take, and so I stepped
back in again. I tried self-revelation, which isn't usually hard for
me, except in a hostile environment, which I feel this List mostly
is for me and has been from the first post I wrote to which JoAnne
responded with an outright personal attack. I became the List's
Void-replacement. I tried humour. I tried simple explanation. I
tried a variety of approaches.

But again - the conflict on the List! Some angry, some sad, some
deleting, some shaming.

I have just been listening to a show on TV, which began after
I wrote the last paragraph. Deborah Tannen, a socio-linguist,
was interviewed on Public TV. What she said is pertinent to
what we're going through on here, so let me paraphrase from
the notes I took.

What she said is that our culture has come to a place where
we are approaching everything in life as though it were a battle,
and so we debate, and wait for the other person to make a point
we can jump in on to attack or win a point.

Conflict is entertaining, and so we invite those with the most
polarized views and then see the issues as divided by their
poles, and therefore see any problems as being insoluble.

We want food fights. We don't want those who see several
sides of an issue. When a potential guest is interviewed
for a TV talk show, for instance, if s/he says s/he sees
different and moderate viewpoints, that person is not
used on the show. The shows want the people who have
very polarized viewpoints. We want the black and white,
knee-jerk response which we see as the best way to
get to "the truth". "We have an ethic of attack and aggression,
and we call it 'truth', says Tannen. We want a ratcheting up
of aggression. And we see this all through the political
arena, and the media.

In 1994, in the United States, 14 of our most respected
US politicians left politics because they felt partisan
politics and the level of rancor and invective hurled made
it imposibe to get anything done. I don't know if similar
events occurred in other countries - but maybe List
members from other countries can tell us.

"The conciliatory approach has come to be seen as
self-effacing and 'bad'." - and also not to be trusted.
It's also perhaps "bad" because it isn't what we want -
we want to watch the Christians being flung to the lions
and ripped to shreds. Sop some on the List play the
lions, and others play the rulers who condone this in
their society, and others play the poets and minstrels
whose participation hides behind a facade of "beauty".

"Instead of a watch-dog press, we now have an attack-dog
press" - and there is the assumption that a politician is
strategic rather than sincere.

My experience that this List is the larger society writ small.

There has been extraordinary aggression on here, and attack.
Some are distressed by this, and others assure them that
anger is a normal part of life, and so it's fine to have it on here.
Some of those who were the loudest attackers are now
forgetting this, and assuming that anger is someone else's issue.
Anita, for example, who wrote me such awful attacks last year, is
now saying that it's nice that I can perhaps deal with "my" anger
"for the first time". Gawd.

Those who like to write poetry and communicate in gentler ways
are aghast, deleting, pleading with us all to be nice. They are
also saying they are ignoring us and deleting us.

My suggestion is that instead of seeing the great polarization
as being between JoAnne and me, as Judith suggested, that
we each stop being so damn judgmental, and assume
responsibility for our own individual positions on whatever
issues are discussed. The choice isn't between JoAnne and
me - there are many approaches we can each take - and
we can each vary the approaches we take from day to day
as well.

I m not defending JoAnne here, but I am suggesting that you
quit talking about us. We are not your problem. We are the
hook-of-the-moment. And whether you rage at one or the
other of us, or write sad poems about the horror of it all,
each has to take responsibility for his or her input into the
aggression which was evoked and displayed on this list
well before we even arrived.

Walter - I'm not going to "resolve" this just to make you
feel better. You need to look at why the chaos of this list
feels so heavy to you, and how you participate in its
continuation.

JoAnne - your search for your truth is your search - I'm not
here to join your religion just to make you feel more
secure in this world. I am not the Devil, and your truth
does not live or die just because I do or don't affirm it.
What we most accuse others of is our shadow - what
is your real relationship with your own "truth"? It's not
whether *I* am truthful that bothers you - it's whether
you are yourself.

Me? Who knows? I'll just keep muddling along trying
to understand myself and my issues - or whatever.

We are all angry. We are all wounded. Every single one
of us has undoubtedly muddled through our anger
issues for years, if we've been in the slightest concerned
with taking responsibility for personal growth. Instead
of dumping it "out there" on JoAnne, or Julienne, or Void -
own it inside each of us, and also own that our current
angers are not rooted in each other at all - but in our
developmental roots; our parents, our early caretakers,
the environment in the womb as we started to become
little human beings - the early and following life events
which made us whom we are.

Does this mean we can never express anger? I don't
think so. But I do think is might mean that we need to
be a bit more reflective about what's going on when we
feel both anger and sadness - the two sides of the
same coin, and moderate our response to the individual
on this lost, or elsewhere, with that understanding in mind.

For example, when JoAnne announces she doesn't trust
me, doesn't think I'm truthful, what's she really grappling with?
She would still be grappling with those issues if I didn't exist,
because they are her issues. What doesn't she trust in herself?
What is there about her own "truths" that she distrusts? She was
angry about my grief process - and then revealed that no one
was there for her when her father died. Ergo - she resents
anyone being there for me.

Let's express our anger if we want to, but don't name
our anger, "Void", or by the name of anyone else who
comes on this List. Let's deal with the issues instead
of victimizing or scapegoating any individuals. And let's
look inwward instead of dumping our stuff on each other.


Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 14:13:01 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Nancy S. Smith" <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....

       in this wood of words
  i feel glimpsed by judith, bob
    and simon     three thanks

                  nancy


On Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:33:50 -0400 Automatic digest processor
<LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM> writes:
>There are 5 messages totalling 468 lines in this issue.
>
>Topics of the day:
>
>  1. Simon - finding meaning in the abyss (2)
>  2. If we were the last ones left.....
>  3. on language - and  truth
>  4. Truth
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:24:48 GMT
>From:    JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
>Subject: Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
>
>On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:21:51 +0100, you, "Simon G. Trask"
><simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>, wrote:
>
>>It seems to me that when arguments don't lead anywhere it's partly
>because
>>there's no underlying trust. If there is trust then there's a degree
>of
>>listening, because there's a sense that "the other" has something
>>worthwhile to say.
>
>>If there is to be meaning in staring into the abyss, surely it must
>reside
>>in hope, in a belief that something beneficial will result, that
>there will
>>be a going forward (or maybe a spiralling upward) rather than merely
>a
>>going in (vicious) circles. Otherwise the process is meaningless.
>Without
>>hope there is no meaning. Seen in one way: the hope is that negative
>>patterns will be ended instead of endlessly repeated. Also: hope lies
>in
>>seeing that you value yourself enough to be able to hope that the
>negative
>>patterns can be ended.
>
>I resonate with both of the above, and realize that I must have given
>up a lot of my hopes about Julienne and me somewhere along the line.
>
>>Re beauty:
>>
>>I recall a while back HooN commenting that truth isn't always
>beautiful
>>(itself a beautiful truth, I think). I'm tempted to say that while
>truth
>>may not always be beautiful, the *revealing* of truth always is,
>because it
>>has the positive effect of burning, cleansing, releasing... But then
>I
>>wonder if sometimes it isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
>>destructive...
>>
>>
>>Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty
>without
>>kindness, or kindness without honesty? (these questions sparked by
>>discussion on another list - serendipity again)
>
>I prefer honesty pretty much every time.  I think Julienne would
>prefer the kindness -- I'm recalling her saying that she would like
>this to be nice and friendly space, all happy and rosy, and I think
>that's contradictory to human nature and must of necessity be lies and
>bullshit.
>
>Can this ever be sorted out?
>
>>And then there is always the question of 'Whose truth?', and the
>issue of
>>manipulation.
>
>Oh yeah.
>
>>If truth is a content data stream, might the full bandwidth also
>contain a
>>control data stream?
>
>Interesting.  But that's information too, about whoever creates the
>control stream and the intent of that person.
>
>>Thinking also of steganography, an encoding process whereby the real
>>(intended) message is hidden in the least significant bits of
>seemingly
>>innocent digitised content (an image of a sunny day in the
>countryside may
>>contain a recipe for making explosives).
>
>It often does!
>
>>Maybe the revealing of truth is the decoding process, and the truth
>itself
>>is the decoded message. The innocent picture is shattered by the
>revealing
>>of the darker message (the 'truth') that it had hidden. How can there
>ever
>>again be faith in seemingly innocent pictures?
>
>Why would anyone who's lived more than 20 years have faith in
>"innocent" pictures?
>
>>>The place got cleaned up somewhat and we seem to have lost
>something,
>>>some opportunity.
>>
>>An opportunity to put right what went wrong, perhaps?
>
>Again, I'm losing faith that anything can be "put right."
>
>>>It is almost as though we have resorted to a lobotomy
>>>in order to banish unwanted demons ...
>>
>>What do you feel has been removed? Anger? Authentic expression?
>Argument?
>>
>>
>>>I know, they left of their own
>>>will power ... Yet, when we look deep within, there are still the
>ghosts
>>>and echoes and strange things that tell us that what we feared still
>>>remains ........ within ....
>>>
>>>Robert
>>
>>Better to acknowledge the demons within than to demonise others...
>
>Oh, I have demons.  They're just not boiling anyone in oil.
>
>>Honesty starts at home.
>
>We'll see.
>
>-JoAnne
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:03:48 -0400
>From:    "Nancy S. Smith" <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
>Subject: Re: If we were the last ones left.....
>
>            Members List
>
>        may rilled into june
>with 'gains' outweighing 'loses'
>       mourning not electra
>
>        from nancy (not even senryu...)
>
>
>
>On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 00:15:24 -0400 Automatic digest processor
><LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM> writes:
>>There are 3 messages totalling 156 lines in this issue.
>>
>>Topics of the day:
>>
>>  1. If we were the last ones left...
>>  2. Books on the Social Aspects of Computing, 1996-1997
>>  3. Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Date:    Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:11:38 -0600
>>From:    Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
>>Subject: Re: If we were the last ones left...
>>
>>Anita,
>>
>>>    Btw, some nights ago I dreamt about  the list, or  I associated
>>the
>>> dream with the list, because  on  my front-door there was  a text:
>"
>>The
>>> Dictionary editorial staff  I.M.R.I".  Below  the text there was  a
>>big
>>> photograph of Robert as a baby. I  don't know what it means. Expect
>>that I
>>> ought to use  a dictionary,  because so  many words are beyond my
>>> comprehension.
>>
>>I do have a photograph of me as a baby.  I hope your photograph
>>included
>>the little ball that I was holding in mine.  My hair is combed up
>into
>>a
>>curl which in some funny way reminds me of the spiked hair styles
>that
>>are worn by some adolescents.  By the way, I do use a dictionary
>often
>>as I too find that all languages are so difficult to tame.
>>
>>>     According to  Marie- Louise von Franz, "the  word shadow is
>>simply a
>>> name we use for the fact that most people are not fully  aware of
>>all their
>>> personality traits. We like to imagine ourselves as being
>>intelligent, or
>>> generous or good-natured or practically gifted, and what not. But
>we
>>have
>>> other qualities in our complete personality, inferior qualities
>that
>>we are
>>> not so aware of. Our relationship to our  surroundings tells us
>>about them,
>>> and in quarrels they come out... Whenever we are tired or under
>>pressure,
>>> another personality often breaks through...."   To  Franz's mind
>>the shadow
>>> is really our best social function." It  integrates us into the
>>group. With
>>> our  good qualities we  are above the group. With our shadow we are
>>man
>>> among men and human, all-too human."
>>
>>Hmm-mm-mn?  I must give my shadow a little more lease as I get tired
>>of
>>the solitary confinements of living in good behaviour ... from youth,
>>a
>>saint-in-training ... in adulthood, tainted and tarnished and hopeful
>>that if I try harder I might escape the swamp for a few moments.
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date:    Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:15:12 -0600
>>From:    Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
>>Subject: Books on the Social Aspects of Computing, 1996-1997
>>
>>Walter and all,
>>
>>I have just received notice of this site constructed by Phil Agre.  A
>>quick perusal of the site tells me that this is truly an invaluable
>>site
>>for any who are interested in the topic (which seems to fit well with
>>the whole concept of PSYBER-L).
>>
>> http://weber.ucsd.edu/~pagre/recent-books.html
>>
>>Robert
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>Date:    Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:21:51 +0100
>>From:    "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>>Subject: Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
>>
>>>Simon,
>>>
>>>Thanks for the words in response to the poetry.  There is a strange,
>>>haunting beauty in the abyss.  I think that to realise this is
>>important
>>>in trying to hold to the aspects of abyss that show up here in
>>PSYBER-L.
>>>I regret that not being able to hold to the abyss with trust has led
>>to
>>>the departure of others such as Wilbur ... and I wonder about Void.
>>
>>Robert, I like this phrase: "hold to the abyss with trust"
>>
>>It seems to me that when arguments don't lead anywhere it's partly
>>because
>>there's no underlying trust. If there is trust then there's a degree
>>of
>>listening, because there's a sense that "the other" has something
>>worthwhile to say.
>>
>>
>>Re meaning:
>>
>>If there is to be meaning in staring into the abyss, surely it must
>>reside
>>in hope, in a belief that something beneficial will result, that
>there
>>will
>>be a going forward (or maybe a spiralling upward) rather than merely
>a
>>going in (vicious) circles. Otherwise the process is meaningless.
>>Without
>>hope there is no meaning. Seen in one way: the hope is that negative
>>patterns will be ended instead of endlessly repeated. Also: hope lies
>>in
>>seeing that you value yourself enough to be able to hope that the
>>negative
>>patterns can be ended.
>>
>>
>>Re beauty:
>>
>>I recall a while back HooN commenting that truth isn't always
>>beautiful
>>(itself a beautiful truth, I think). I'm tempted to say that while
>>truth
>>may not always be beautiful, the *revealing* of truth always is,
>>because it
>>has the positive effect of burning, cleansing, releasing... But then
>I
>>wonder if sometimes it isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
>>destructive...
>>
>>
>>Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty
>>without
>>kindness, or kindness without honesty? (these questions sparked by
>>discussion on another list - serendipity again)
>>
>>
>>And then there is always the question of 'Whose truth?', and the
>issue
>>of
>>manipulation.
>>
>>If truth is a content data stream, might the full bandwidth also
>>contain a
>>control data stream?
>>
>>Thinking also of steganography, an encoding process whereby the real
>>(intended) message is hidden in the least significant bits of
>>seemingly
>>innocent digitised content (an image of a sunny day in the
>countryside
>>may
>>contain a recipe for making explosives).
>>
>>Maybe the revealing of truth is the decoding process, and the truth
>>itself
>>is the decoded message. The innocent picture is shattered by the
>>revealing
>>of the darker message (the 'truth') that it had hidden. How can there
>>ever
>>again be faith in seemingly innocent pictures?
>>
>>
>>>The place got cleaned up somewhat and we seem to have lost
>something,
>>>some opportunity.
>>
>>An opportunity to put right what went wrong, perhaps?
>>
>>
>>>It is almost as though we have resorted to a lobotomy
>>>in order to banish unwanted demons ...
>>
>>What do you feel has been removed? Anger? Authentic expression?
>>Argument?
>>
>>
>>>I know, they left of their own
>>>will power ... Yet, when we look deep within, there are still the
>>ghosts
>>>and echoes and strange things that tell us that what we feared still
>>>remains ........ within ....
>>>
>>>Robert
>>
>>Better to acknowledge the demons within than to demonise others...
>>
>>Honesty starts at home.
>>
>>Simon
>>
>>------------------------------
>>
>>End of PSYBER-L Digest - 3 Jun 1998 to 4 Jun 1998 (#1998-110)
>>*************************************************************
>>
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:48:01 +0300
>From:    Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
>Subject: Re: on language - and  truth
>
>Hi Robert, Simon, JoAnne and   all,
>
>This is a confession. I'm a  liar.  I wrote two days ago:
>
>>Sometimes I  also like  arguing, but  I preferred that  someone
>>else than me is right.
>It must be: Sometimes I  like  to argue, but I prefer that someone
>else
>than me is wrong..
>I shouldn't  write  tired .  In that  state my brains keep dozing off,
> the
>shadow  steps in and begins to  express odd opinions.  Interesting
>that it
>prefers to be  wrong!
>
>One of the  best  side of the Psyber-List is that it  mirrors back
>the
>shadow . For example  Julienne can   connect with her anger  - perhaps
> at
>first time  in  her life -   thanks to JoAnne,  me and some others.
>And it
>may be an integrative   process  for her.  Maybe her trap is
>kindness.
>
>Simon wonders if  sometimes  truth  > isn't more damaging, more
>hurtful, more
>destructive.
>     But one of  the  head ideologist of the  Western  culture, Jesus,
>who
>said something that, the Truth  will make you free?
>    JoAnne. asked, whose  truth ?  That's  the dilemma.  There are  so
>many
>truths in the  world.  Too many  human beings  have died  for
>sometimes this
>and sometime that truth.   I  suspect all truths.  That's why  -
>perhaps -
>my shadow  expressed that it  don't  like to be right.
>" You who seek  the truth
>  seek the wall.
>  The stone, the other stone, the other.
>  lean your back or your forehead
>  against the wall
>  upright in the right
>  with the small coins in your pocket
>  noiseless
>  gold or silver
>  unrefunded
>  And dream"
>It  was  written by Yannis Ritsos, Greek poet,  during  the
>dictatorship of
>Junta, when  he was first  arrested by the police,  then  sent to  the
>dentition camp of  Leros. After an international outcry he was
>permitted to
>return to his home-island  Samos, where his movements were restricted
>and
>always shadowed of spies, mail was forbidden him, and no persons other
>than
>those of his immediate family was allowed to approach him or to speak
>to
>him, not even his neighbours or townspeople.
>
>Robert, you wrote  in your post: "If we were last ones left... ": >I
>hope
>your photograph included the little ball that I was holding in mine.
> No, I didn't see the ball.  I'm not yet  a clairvoyant.  Wait for
>twenty
>years - perhaps then.
>
>Cheers to all
>Anita
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Sat, 6 Jun 1998 07:59:12 +1200
>From:    Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
>Subject: Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
>
>Hi Simon
>
>> Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty
>without
>> kindness, or kindness without honesty?
>
>There are other choices.  Unlike 'military intelligence', honesty and
>kindness are not mutually exclusive words.  The older I get, the more
>I see
>the thousand shades of grey between the two.  I'll go for honesty
>*with*
>kindness every time.
>
>Call me old fashioned . . .
>
>Barry
>____________________________________
>Barry Kennedy<kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 21:01:20 EDT
>From:    John Gerhart <JGerh50699@AOL.COM>
>Subject: Re: Truth
>
>Simon said
>>I recall a while back HooN commenting that truth isn't always
>beautiful
>>(itself a beautiful truth, I think). I'm tempted to say that while
>truth
>>may not always be beautiful, the *revealing* of truth always is,
>because it
>>has the positive effect of burning, cleansing, releasing... But then
>I
>>wonder if sometimes it isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
>>destructive...
>
>One can't grow without truth and growth is sometimes painful and
>damaging to
>our old manner of thinking and living.
>
>
>
>>And then there is always the question of 'Whose truth?', and the
>issue of
>>manipulation.
>
>Truth, I speak from a spiritual perspective, is unchanging-eternal.
>Facts
>change.  My perspective may differ from yours, and neither perspective
>may be
>truth.
>Science is based on facts, not necessarily truth.  Witness the number
>of
>scientific ideas and theories which have changed over man's history.
>
>>Better to acknowledge the demons within than to demonise others...
>
>And some people have a real knack for unleasinmg our demons!
>
>
>Joanne said
>>Why would anyone who's lived more than 20 years have faith in
>>"innocent" pictures?
>
>Because they are innocent!
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of PSYBER-L Digest - 4 Jun 1998 to 5 Jun 1998 (#1998-111)
>*************************************************************
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:32:36 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Power and Construction in Psyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Simon

> Robert, your description here reminds me of a free jazz ensemble, where the
> music arises spontaneously out of deep listening.

I like that image.

> >It's so difficult to construct in this space/place when the community is
> >so vitally empowered and aware of each individual's power to construct
> >and create.
>
> What do you see as difficulties? And what do you mean by 'construct' and
> 'create' in this context?

Difficulties?  In any system, community, that we encounter in the f2f
domaine there appears to be leadership, to be "other" directed control
and power over the nature of the system.  Even the manager of the
system/community knows that she/he does not really have control/power.
Here in any given cyberspace community, the individual is not managed,
controlled.  If an "other" (especially list-owners) decides to impose
controls, the individual can simply ignore the controls and continue
along, or even more blatantly speak to the situation by just
disappearing.  Community then becomes a gathering of individuals
struggling with the concept that all are leaders.  When all begin to
accept and act in that manner, cyberian community thrives.  All take
responsibility for community, all begin to listen, all begin to alllow
authentic thought have a voice.  Individuals create this place.  Each
individual adds yet more to the structure, even the "void's" and the
"wilbur's".  They are not present anymore, but their impact on the psych
of this community is still strong.  Walter's welcome message is proof
that their presence will last even longer.

For one person to be the "architect" the "constructor" of a community is
impossible in this space.  As with the JUNG list, my deliberate act of
creating that spcae, giving it a rationale ahd little to do with what
now exists as community there.  I can't even pretend that I am a
"leader" there. I doubt that anyone can truly become the leader or avoid
leading should they allow their voice to speak for them.

> PS. Robert, I'd be interested to know how you read these questions to you.
> Do they seem like a challenge? Or an attempt at careful listening?

I see you as listening, carefully ... and myself responding to your
listening by challenging myself to give some form to the vague thoughts
behind my words.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:49:17 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Truth
In-Reply-To:  <6a832d81.357894e1@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

John wrote:
>Simon said
>>I recall a while back HooN commenting that truth isn't always beautiful
>>(itself a beautiful truth, I think). I'm tempted to say that while truth
>>may not always be beautiful, the *revealing* of truth always is, because it
>>has the positive effect of burning, cleansing, releasing... But then I
>>wonder if sometimes it isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
>>destructive...
>
>One can't grow without truth and growth is sometimes painful and damaging to
>our old manner of thinking and living.

Or painful and damaging to our *attachment* to our old manner of thinking
and living, perhaps - and/or to the attachments *in* our old manner of
thinking and living.

I was thinking about the effect on both self and others (though I see now
this wasn't clear from my wording), questioning whether the revealing of
truth always results in a win-win situation (ie. if the sum total effect is
always positive). Sometimes it can result in a win-lose situation,
sometimes even a lose-lose situation.


>>And then there is always the question of 'Whose truth?', and the issue of
>>manipulation.
>
>Truth, I speak from a spiritual perspective, is unchanging-eternal.  Facts
>change.  My perspective may differ from yours, and neither perspective may be
>truth.
>Science is based on facts, not necessarily truth.  Witness the number of
>scientific ideas and theories which have changed over man's history.

Hmm, yes, 'truth' can be (super)imposed on facts at a different level from
the operation of the facts.

Also: there are individual truths and there are group truths, and
individual truths can become group truths and vice versa (or maybe that's
just my individual truth!).

Truth itself, I would suggest, stands apart from all perspective and
motive. Perhaps it can only ever be experienced, never conveyed.


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:03:25 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
In-Reply-To:  <199806052004.IAA15907@cyclops.xtra.co.nz>
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>Hi Simon
>
>> Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty without
>> kindness, or kindness without honesty?
>
>There are other choices.  Unlike 'military intelligence', honesty and
>kindness are not mutually exclusive words.  The older I get, the more I see
>the thousand shades of grey between the two.  I'll go for honesty *with*
>kindness every time.
>
>Call me old fashioned . . .
>
>Barry

Indeed, some unprocessed binary musing on my part, Barry, collapsing the
opposite ends of a continuum into a duality and framing the issue as a
(false) dichotomy. In fact, I see honesty-without-kindness at one end of
the continuum and kindness-without-honesty at the other. Both are available
as expressions, but there are also all these shadings in between, produced
by a consideration of 'how honest can I be vs. how kind can I be'. It's
also worth considering how honest the kindness is, and who it is you're
being kind to (self/other/both?).

On reflection, I think that honesty *with* honesty is the optimum (though
not necessarily the easiest) choice.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:08:42 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
In-Reply-To:  <3578E4E0.62EA@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Simon,
>
>> What do you feel has been removed? Anger? Authentic expression? Argument?
>
>With the exorcisms (self exorcised) there seems to have been a loss of
>passion and a swelling of self-doubt with the group.  This has
>manifested in a self-study (psyber-l study, a rationale-study), a naval
>gazing so to speak.  The shadow banished, ferments and waits.
>
>Robert

You seem to be saying that passion can only manifest through the shadow.
Or, perhaps, the shadow has its own passions?

There seems to be an ebb and flow process here (and I tend to think of ebb
and flow as being part of a larger flow).  I wonder, Iif experience of the
shadow informs our self-study, does experience of the self-study inform our
shadow? Isn't this all part of the attempt to 'do it differently' (change
the pattern)?

Robert, I like your notion of the shadow fermenting - it puts me in mind of
wine maturing in a cask in some deep, dark cellar, all the while waiting
for the opportunity to realise its destiny of making us drunk and
delirious!


Simon

Btw, as I understand it, fermentation is a process of converting the
complex into the simple - appropriate for the shadow, then!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:31:43 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
In-Reply-To:  <357bfb2f.67643140@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:21:51 +0100, you, "Simon G. Trask"
><simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>, wrote:
>
>>It seems to me that when arguments don't lead anywhere it's partly because
>>there's no underlying trust. If there is trust then there's a degree of
>>listening, because there's a sense that "the other" has something
>>worthwhile to say.
>
>>If there is to be meaning in staring into the abyss, surely it must reside
>>in hope, in a belief that something beneficial will result, that there will
>>be a going forward (or maybe a spiralling upward) rather than merely a
>>going in (vicious) circles. Otherwise the process is meaningless. Without
>>hope there is no meaning. Seen in one way: the hope is that negative
>>patterns will be ended instead of endlessly repeated. Also: hope lies in
>>seeing that you value yourself enough to be able to hope that the negative
>>patterns can be ended.
>
>I resonate with both of the above, and realize that I must have given
>up a lot of my hopes about Julienne and me somewhere along the line.

Hello JoAnne,

The first time I read your sentence, I didn't quite catch the "and me" bit
- perhaps an indication of an expectation on my part surrounding 'JoAnne
vs. Julienne'.

The second time I read it, I thought your meaning was "about Julienne and
about me".

The third time I read it, I saw it as "about Julienne-and-me".

I'm thinking that probably you meant the third, not the second - at least
consciously! But might it also be that we give up some hopes about
ourselves when we find that we *cannot* resolve a situation (cannot make
things better)? What is it about me that means I can't handle this
differently? (It's always easier to see what it is about someone else!)


>>Re beauty:
>>
>>I recall a while back HooN commenting that truth isn't always beautiful
>>(itself a beautiful truth, I think). I'm tempted to say that while truth
>>may not always be beautiful, the *revealing* of truth always is, because it
>>has the positive effect of burning, cleansing, releasing... But then I
>>wonder if sometimes it isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
>>destructive...
>>
>>
>>Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty without
>>kindness, or kindness without honesty? (these questions sparked by
>>discussion on another list - serendipity again)
>
>I prefer honesty pretty much every time.  I think Julienne would
>prefer the kindness -- I'm recalling her saying that she would like
>this to be nice and friendly space, all happy and rosy, and I think
>that's contradictory to human nature and must of necessity be lies and
>bullshit.

I'm afraid I didn't think, and ended up posing a (false) dichotomy re
honesty and kindness, when really there are all these shadings inbetween.

Also: I think you're both more complex than you make one another out to be
(perhaps also: than you make yourselves out to be).

And I'm not going to get into she said/she said!


>Can this ever be sorted out?

Perhaps the best thing is to not *try* to sort it out, as if 'it' is some
jigsaw puzzle that can be completed if only (between you) you can find all
the bits you need and then find where they need to go. Sometimes the only
way to find something is to not look for it, because when you look for it
you get more and more frustrated and tired as it continues to elude you,
and in concentrating your energies on 'the looking' you maybe increase the
likelihood of missing 'the looked for'. In the effort of looking, we can
overlook.


>>If truth is a content data stream, might the full bandwidth also contain a
>>control data stream?
>
>Interesting.  But that's information too, about whoever creates the
>control stream and the intent of that person.

Yes, it's information too, but unless you have the right 'decoder' it's
hidden information. The decoder might be what you know about the person
that other people don't know - or it might be what you know about someone
else who is like that that person ("I've seen those moves before.").


>>Better to acknowledge the demons within than to demonise others...
>
>Oh, I have demons.  They're just not boiling anyone in oil.

Maybe they're boiling you (or just slow roasting you).

Sorry, I don't mean to be facetious - it's that damned wordplay coming up
again!

>>Honesty starts at home.
>
>We'll see.
>
>-JoAnne

Whose home are you thinking of?


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:59:33 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
In-Reply-To:  <19980606075602.BPTI3729@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>At 07:59 AM 6/6/98 +1200, Barry wrote:
>>Hi Simon
>>
>>> Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty without
>>> kindness, or kindness without honesty?
>>
>>There are other choices.  Unlike 'military intelligence', honesty and
>>kindness are not mutually exclusive words.  The older I get, the more I see
>>the thousand shades of grey between the two.  I'll go for honesty *with*
>>kindness every time.
>>
>>Call me old fashioned . . .
>
>I don't think you're old fashioned. I think honesty without kindness
>probably is dishonest in that it has an agenda beyond the purported
>honesty.
>
>Julienne

I think this is possible, Julienne, but also the same can be said about
honesty *with* kindness. Is the agenda behind the purported kindness always
itself kind? There are all these shadings of behaviour and intention.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:29:53 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne wrote:
>My children (22 and 25) and I get angry with
>each other fairly frequently, but we have found it too painful to stay in
>that state. We use a lot of humour, we laugh at ourselves, we have family
>jokes, and ways of relating to each other when we're stressed and angry.
>But we've also learned to not always deal with things when we're angry.
>We'll go off and do other things, think, do chores - whatever.  We talk a
>lot, and we are concerned about each other, and so we try to understand
>what has happened - why we may be upset and angry. Although the first
>instinct is to be angry at "the other" we are well aware that the anger is
>about our own stuff. And so our conversations are not usually about what
>someone "did" to someone else, but what the one who is feeling anger is
>upset about. Rather than flaming out at each other, we usually do a lot of
>consoling of whomever of us is feeling angry.

Which begs the question: why not here? Is it that the container is
inadequate? Or that there's an insufficient basis for trust? Or
insufficient depth of relationship?

All quite possible, to my mind. Especially as, to my best recollection,
I've yet to see any evidence that anger can be handled in a beneficial way
in cyberspace.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:47:10 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nancy,

>        in this wood of words
>   i feel glimpsed by judith, bob
>     and simon     three thanks

I would like to have more than a "fleeting" glimpse.  Can you speak more
about who you are?  I realise that some of us here have been here a long
time and have long ago passed the stage of "introductions" but that
doesn't eliminate the need to continue to have introductions here.  I
wonder if there is a way to create a special place where we can
"introduce" ourselves in a manner that is always available for others
who join this place at different times ... a challenge for Walter, for
each of us to construct that document which would well present us to
others who desire to join this place and become part of the active
dynamic of this place.  Hmmm-mmmnn?  I think that I might work on some
such thing for my own lists, a web-site who's who on list "X".

Enough of such musings.  I truly would like to hear more from the poet
that puts these words to screen, more "about" this poet, more thoughts
and reactions of this poet to this place called PSYBER-L.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 07:39:07 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hi Simon


> >> Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty
without
> >> kindness, or kindness without honesty?
> >
> >There are other choices.  Unlike 'military intelligence', honesty and
> >kindness are not mutually exclusive words.  The older I get, the more I
see
> >the thousand shades of grey between the two.  I'll go for honesty *with*
> >kindness every time.
> >
> >Call me old fashioned . . .
> >
> >Barry
>
> Indeed, some unprocessed binary musing on my part, Barry, collapsing the
> opposite ends of a continuum into a duality and framing the issue as a
> (false) dichotomy. In fact, I see honesty-without-kindness at one end of
> the continuum and kindness-without-honesty at the other. Both are
available
> as expressions, but there are also all these shadings in between,
produced
> by a consideration of 'how honest can I be vs. how kind can I be'. It's
> also worth considering how honest the kindness is, and who it is you're
> being kind to (self/other/both?).
>
> On reflection, I think that honesty *with* honesty is the optimum (though
> not necessarily the easiest) choice.
>
> Simon



Bingo !  I couldn't have expressed it better myself.

p.s.  " . . unprocessed binary musing . .".  I love it.  Dang, that's good.

Barry
____________________________________
Barry Kennedy<kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 17:41:28 EDT
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From:         John Gerhart <JGerh50699@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's honest truth
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Hoon said

<< Still, sometimes those attempts have made a big difference. But, my
 experience is that I can be shown by many others the key, the lock, the
 door any number of times, but only God and my intention can put my hand on
 the key. Grace fused with intention.
  >>

This reminds me of a dream I had when I was doing some searching-both interior
and exterior.  In the dream I need a ride home from the parking garage I was
in.  Why I was there or how I got there.  A nice old man (wise old man?)  who
had befriended me in another previous dream said he would give me a ride home
if I would drive.  He gave me his car keys and I went off looking for the car,
but guess what ?  I had the key, but I couldn't find the car.   So sometimes
even having the key may not be enough! :-)

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Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 17:09:49 -0700
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From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Meeseo-to Robert and Julienne
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Robert & Julienne

Today, I am thinking about my recent posts.
This week, fortunately, for the election & the Memorial day, and
Festivals, I don't give any lecture.

Then, I realize I was wrong, in a sense.
...so to speak, that my attitute was not good.

In fact, since the disputes of March , I read emails from Psyber-L,
but not in detail.

it was because of my headache caused by the disputes between Julinne&
Joanne, Joanne&susan,  Julienne &Walter, Walter & susanne, etc...

I used to judge that in each case, one was too tenacious and the other
was wise, one was right and the other is wrong.

At that time, for About 3 days,
I read many terrible emails, and then I sent one email to Psyber-L.
The mail was nearly a prayer to me.

I wanted to tell a lot at that time. but I couldn't.
I was too busy for preparing my essay, and reading aggressive emails
was too painful to me.  I was very suffocated.

Further I was afraid of jumping into disputes, and I was(still am)
poor in English...
I was very disappointed.
So I gave up writing and reading in detail.

So I made one folder in my email-box and save emails from Psyber-L
into it.

I didn't want to see the bare shadows of mind, here.
But I could understand their minds in my own way.
Walter's self-conceit as List owner.
Julienne's wounded heart and potential hatred.
Joanne's hurt feelings and agressiveness.
...etc...

All made me unhappy and down.(maybe, because I could see my inner
shadows and I didn't want to see it)

Of course,
I know Susan's wisdom and intelligence.
 Dolores's endless effort struggling against her own    limits,
 Judith's warmness and prudence
 Robert's ceaseless pursuit,
 Water's endurence,
 Joanne's imposing self-recognition and frankness,
 Julienne's heartful sweetness and earnestness,
 Hoon's wit,
 Charles's gentleness,
 Anita's honesty.
........  etc...

Despite of it,
 I was silent and I haven't post for a long time.
 I had no confidence to persuade anybody.
 I was cowardly.
 Of course, It's not changed still.

Now I know that I claimed only my own view in previsous letter.  My
attitude is also wrong.

In fact, I always used to think that shadows evoke shadows, lights
evoke lights, hates evoke hates, love evoke love.

So I usually don't want to express my bad feelings and immediatly try
to forget it and it soon disappear.
(there are Jesus Christ and Buddha among my friends).
It might be that I turn my face from it for being freed from it. I
know the inner shadows, too much.

 I just think that our shadows of mind can't disappear through
aggresive disputes.
 the start of the communication is to listen to another's inner voice.
 Of course it's hard to do it.
It's very difficult to continue it, because we are too busy and don't
want to shake our daily lives.

I know your minds( Robert, Julienne) very little.
When I have more time, I email to you more.
it takes time for me to write in English.
I have to finish my translation and report, until this month.... so.


  *Julienne
 I am very sorry to answer to you in such a way.
 It was not an email, but a cry.
 please forgive me.

Best wishes.

Meeseo

PS: I received this URL from my friend living in Honkong who is a
17-year-old girl. I was happy.
So I send it to you.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/3983/word.html



Meeseo.




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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 20:33:57 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Meeseo, Robert...
In-Reply-To:  <35798476.87A@cybersurf.net>
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At 12:03 PM 6/6/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Meeseo,
>
>It sometimes is hard to hold onto the tensions that come out of
>arguement and misunderstandings that we hear as we sit on the sidelines,
>especially when the nature of this medium draws us into conversation,
>into the fringes of the disputes.  There is "worth" that has come out of
>it.  Your little poem and my response to it are but examples of this
>"worth".

Robert, I would like to suggest that you and Meeseo are in a privileged
position. It is those of us down in the dirt who are doing a great deal
of your work for you, while you assume the holy roles of poet and
saint.

>> We know the stories too much.
>> I was not here at that time when the disputes began.
>> But I know  the beginnings and results of the disputes very well.
>
>As painful as these disputes are to those who are central to them AND to
>those who witness them, there is some need being met in clinging so
>desperately to the disputes.  That we have held here speaks of some need
>for ourselves as well, some very uncomfortable need that perhaps is not
>even recognised, needs that would rather be denied.

Exactly.

>> *The stories* are said *repeatedly* whenever there are chances.
>> Further, *the stories* have been said not by artistic
>> expressions(music, poem..etc)

>The stories are told from "gut" places.  Like the raw materials that are
>used in alchemy, materials that are dank and dark, these "gut" stories,
>given the right cooking conditions within this cooking container called
>PSYBER-L, may become transformed into "gold" into art.

Further, the stories have been told from time to time through
artistic expressions - at last I have posted poetry as well as
have others. But I fail to see why it is only some art forms which
are acceptable as art. Discursive writing is also a form of
art - as can be almost any form of writing.

>> But I think this case is different from it.
>> In my feeling, They/we  are not healed by their disputes.
>> Further, they/we are hurting  each other more and more severely.
>> They evoke all kinds of bad memories and say " you are wrong,
>> I am right, you hurt me, I am hurt.. ..." repeatedly.
>
>But they do end up feeling even more intensely their hurts.  With a
>triggered awareness coming from the tension of the disputes which hurt
>so much, they may come to recognise, we may come to recognise, the roots
>of hurt within "self" and move/transcend through the hurt to a newer
>vision of self, and self in relation.

We are the players acting it out on the stage for you, while you
sit and gasp at what you're seeing as if you couldn't possibly
be in the same position. Sort of like affluent whites gasping at the
"bad" behaviour of deprived kids in the ghetto.

>> It's not an attitude searching for a true healing.
>> It's not a communication.
>> They don't listen to the opponent's voice.
>> They claim only the opponent's faults and their own hurts.

Meeseo, do you realize how judgmental your words are?

>And, so do we.  Each of these trigger within us as others constellated
>in distant relation to the dispute, our own attitudes, our own faults,
>our own hurts.  Thinking we have buried these and have moved on with our

>lives, our "reaction" to these disputes shows us the fault of such
>thoughts.  These things are again unearthed and we face our own pain and
>garbage.  Can we face them and accept them, even embrace them so that we
>can truly become unstuck? Or, will we again banish them to the depths
>with denial as we implore others to cease their bickering so that we can
>have peace from our own demons?

>> I want to tell a lot, but I can't express my thoughts fully.
>> I am not a native speaker in English. so..
>
>Meeseo.  That you speak so fully with the English language is testament
>of your desire to communicate.  I understand you very well, perhaps
>better than I understand the voices of many others here.  You speak from
>your core and that always finds ways to bridge to other.
>
>thinking of you this Saturday morning as once again the disputes rage on

And from where, but our cores, do the rest of us speak, Robert?
What I am learning in watching you and Meeseo is how I usually
am. I am usually the poet/peacemaker. That is my reputation/role on
at least one other psychological list I am on. It is a learning experience
for me to see myself out of my usual role and placed in the role of
angry protagonist as I have been assigned here.

What if we all exchanged roles on here? What if you and Meeseo
assumed the "angry" roles instead? How would that feel for you?
You have been going through a period of great confusion, depression,
alienation, in your personal journey. What part has repressed and
denied anger had in creating that inner state for you?

The anger is the shadow for the all-loving and accepting, isn't it?
When one is endeavouring to be on a loving and spiritual path,
it is shocking and distressing to find that one has unloving and
angry impulses.  That doesn't mean, of course, that one is all
"bad", and it doesn't mean one has to act out those impulses
or channel them destructively, but it does mean that it might
be important not to be too judgmental of others, or too
self-righteous. The whole point of scapegoating is to declare
that certain ones are the "bad ones".The bad ones are
represented by a goat, and the goat is thrust out of the
village, sent away - and with the goat go all of the sins
of the village. Supposedly.

Why am I still here, Meeseo? I am not sure. Sometimes
I think I'm slumming among a bunch of unenlightened,
really nasty and holier-than-thou people. That's on a bad
day. On a good day I see their qualities. I am not sure
that anything can come of this process, because there is
no moderator, no leader of the group to bring us back in
focus when things are out of control. There is no one to
say "time's up!", or to give us a break. What it amounts to
is that what each of us gets out of this is whatever one is
able to process on one's own. Maybe it won't feel like an
elegant experience, nor one which feels intellectually
brilliant, nor one to be elegized by the poets, nor one
obviously touched by angels - but maybe there is
something to be learned among such a strange
little group of people. Is it a positive way to learn
anything? Not my favourite way - but maybe that tells
me something in itself.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 20:41:46 EDT
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From:         John Gerhart <JGerh50699@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Power and Construction in Psyberspace
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Robert writes:

<< When all begin to
 accept and act in that manner, cyberian community thrives.  All take
 responsibility for community, all begin to listen, all begin to alllow
 authentic thought have a voice.  Individuals create this place.  Each
 individual adds yet more to the structure, even the "void's" and the
 "wilbur's".  They are not present anymore, but their impact on the psych
 of this community is still strong.  Walter's welcome message is proof
 that their presence will last even longer. >>

Robert, to me this sounds like an answer to a question, I believe HooN asked
earlier, "What is doing responsability?"

Best Wishes

John

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Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 20:49:37 EDT
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In a message dated 98-06-06 14:37:02 EDT, Simon wrote:

<< Truth itself, I would suggest, stands apart from all perspective and
 motive. Perhaps it can only ever be experienced, never conveyed.
  >>

|I agree.  Another way, one knows what is true in one's heart.

I sometimes think some of the dissention on any list is because each person
has their own (which comes from the greek word idios > idiot :-) definition of
the terms that are being debated.  I beleive it was Aristotle who said, first
define your words.

Best Wishes

John

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Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:20:38 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
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Anita,

You have saved a poem of mine?  This is a bit amazing to me.  I had not
really thought that they would have any meaning but for the moment. =

And, many times even then I think that many of them fall short of being
meaningful to any but myself.  =


>       In  fact I have had hands full  of  work  for couple of months. I=
 have
> been uncommunicative and  asocial  also in real life. I=92m like that  =
always,
> when I=92m  writing  some =94own=94.  It must  be  called  attachment i=
n  which
> attached  is  incapable of any other conduct.  Perhaps I=92m a monomani=
ac.
> =94But  after all, writing is  nothing more than a guided dream=94 as J=
orge Luis
> Borges put it.   Just a week ago I finnished one work. Now  I  socializ=
e
> with  my  neglected family and friends - for a while -before  I=92ll pl=
unge
> into  the  next  work.

I wish that I was able to find the discipline to put my own work into
form for publishing, find the energy to find a publisher ... maybe not
as I do not even try.  I just throw the words out here in cybersapce and
let the cyberian breezes take them where they will.  In ways, though I
write the words I have trouble "owning" them.  They become the property
of all as listeners to my muddled knowing and vision.
   Heaven knows and dreams show what it will be,  but

>      But  I say, that it is not  possible  to tell pain  or  an experie=
nce
> of any kind  in  story or in poetry before  being  distanced from it.

I don't know if I fully agree.  There is art in the expression of
in-the-moment experience, experience that is enmeshed within the form of
its expression be it painting, music, or word art.

>    Without tension there is no art. And  without  form  the  content of=

> art  arouses too much  anxiety.   Form functions as means=B4of distanci=
ng

Yes, I understand what you are saying here.  As for distancing, I have
the habit of dissociating from the pain, the chaos, the confusion, that
exists around and within my "self".  Not the healthiest way to live but
it does give room for the poetry, the prose, the music, the painting,
the dialogues.

Robert

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Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:27:12 -0600
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John,

> Robert, to me this sounds like an answer to a question, I believe
> HooN asked earlier, "What is doing responsability?"

I believe you are right.  HooN?  What do you think?

Robert

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Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:43:45 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
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Simon,

> Robert, I like this phrase: "hold to the abyss with trust"
>
> It seems to me that when arguments don't lead anywhere it's partly because
> there's no underlying trust. If there is trust then there's a degree of
> listening, because there's a sense that "the other" has something
> worthwhile to say.

This degree of relation that allows one to really engage in an "other"
is based not so much as trust in the specific "other" but in the general
trust in "other" in general, a trust in life and in the human spirit.
Though, it is indeed helpful if one can trust the individual.  I do
think that we can risk speaking to an "other" in whom there is a lack of
trust as long as there is honesty in one's words and those words are
spoken from a place of love and not fear.  Martin Buber talks about this
form of dialogic engagement, the "I-THOU" dialogue.

I don't think that dishonesty is every really kind.  Honesty itself?
Honesty is something that is relative to the "self".  For example if
someone asks my opinion on the appearance of their painting and I don't
care for the appearance, the manner in which the painting was presented,
honesty says that I should say this.  However, since this is a
subjective area (many may find this to be one of the most beautiful
works they have ever seen) I look for things within that are pleasing
such as a contrast in colour at some point.  Finding none of this I am
forced to admit that I do not understand the work and therefore cannot
appreciate it as it likely deserves.

Honesty is sometimes used as a weapon.  The same information can be
presented in a manner that is gentle, constructive, and affirming, or it
van be used to punish, to demean.  Intention, not content is what truly
is at stake here.  Do we really ever do an "other" justice with
dishonesty?  Is that ever truly "kind"?

> Better to acknowledge the demons within than to demonise others...

Now, that is honesty in active process :)

Robert

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Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 03:04:55 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
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Hello "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>, on Sat, 6 Jun 1998 19:31:43
+0100 you wrote:

>>On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:21:51 +0100, you, "Simon G. Trask"
>><simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>, wrote:
>>
>>>It seems to me that when arguments don't lead anywhere it's partly because
>>>there's no underlying trust. If there is trust then there's a degree of
>>>listening, because there's a sense that "the other" has something
>>>worthwhile to say.
>>
>>>If there is to be meaning in staring into the abyss, surely it must reside
>>>in hope, in a belief that something beneficial will result, that there will
>>>be a going forward (or maybe a spiralling upward) rather than merely a
>>>going in (vicious) circles. Otherwise the process is meaningless. Without
>>>hope there is no meaning. Seen in one way: the hope is that negative
>>>patterns will be ended instead of endlessly repeated. Also: hope lies in
>>>seeing that you value yourself enough to be able to hope that the negative
>>>patterns can be ended.
>>
>>I resonate with both of the above, and realize that I must have given
>>up a lot of my hopes about Julienne and me somewhere along the line.
>
>Hello JoAnne,
>
>The first time I read your sentence, I didn't quite catch the "and me" bit
>- perhaps an indication of an expectation on my part surrounding 'JoAnne
>vs. Julienne'.

It was the first thing I thought.  But I realized it was wrong.

>The second time I read it, I thought your meaning was "about Julienne and
>about me".
>
>The third time I read it, I saw it as "about Julienne-and-me".
>
>I'm thinking that probably you meant the third, not the second - at least
>consciously! But might it also be that we give up some hopes about
>ourselves when we find that we *cannot* resolve a situation (cannot make
>things better)? What is it about me that means I can't handle this
>differently? (It's always easier to see what it is about someone else!)

I do think both the second and third are relevant.  And I do wonder what it
is about me that can't see what Julienne sees.

>>>Re beauty:
>>>
>>>I recall a while back HooN commenting that truth isn't always beautiful
>>>(itself a beautiful truth, I think). I'm tempted to say that while truth
>>>may not always be beautiful, the *revealing* of truth always is, because it
>>>has the positive effect of burning, cleansing, releasing... But then I
>>>wonder if sometimes it isn't more damaging, more hurtful, more
>>>destructive...
>>>
>>>
>>>Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty without
>>>kindness, or kindness without honesty? (these questions sparked by
>>>discussion on another list - serendipity again)
>>
>>I prefer honesty pretty much every time.  I think Julienne would
>>prefer the kindness -- I'm recalling her saying that she would like
>>this to be nice and friendly space, all happy and rosy, and I think
>>that's contradictory to human nature and must of necessity be lies and
>>bullshit.
>
>I'm afraid I didn't think, and ended up posing a (false) dichotomy re
>honesty and kindness, when really there are all these shadings inbetween.
>
>Also: I think you're both more complex than you make one another out to be
>(perhaps also: than you make yourselves out to be).
>
>And I'm not going to get into she said/she said!

Smart.  I tend to shade the shades way toward honest, though, making it
perhaps more B&W than it needs to be.  And get more B&W as it's challenged,
asked to be toned down.  "make it more gray" means to me "lie."

>>Can this ever be sorted out?
>
>Perhaps the best thing is to not *try* to sort it out, as if 'it' is some
>jigsaw puzzle that can be completed if only (between you) you can find all
>the bits you need and then find where they need to go. Sometimes the only
>way to find something is to not look for it, because when you look for it
>you get more and more frustrated and tired as it continues to elude you,
>and in concentrating your energies on 'the looking' you maybe increase the
>likelihood of missing 'the looked for'. In the effort of looking, we can
>overlook.

Yet it's hard not to look.  And when do you look again?  And when it looks
the same, what do you do then?

>>>If truth is a content data stream, might the full bandwidth also contain a
>>>control data stream?
>>
>>Interesting.  But that's information too, about whoever creates the
>>control stream and the intent of that person.
>
>Yes, it's information too, but unless you have the right 'decoder' it's
>hidden information. The decoder might be what you know about the person
>that other people don't know - or it might be what you know about someone
>else who is like that that person ("I've seen those moves before.").

And then it may decode partially or completely incorrectly.  Or almost
completely correctly.

It would be grand to be able to say, everyone is totally different, your
preconceptions about people must be wrong.  That's just as incorrect as
saying all your preconceptions must be right, though.

>>>Better to acknowledge the demons within than to demonise others...
>>
>>Oh, I have demons.  They're just not boiling anyone in oil.
>
>Maybe they're boiling you (or just slow roasting you).
>
>Sorry, I don't mean to be facetious - it's that damned wordplay coming up
>again!

Be facetious all you like!  I like it.  I mean, I don't think it's
facetious, it's wordplay, that may or may not have valuable stuff hidden in
it.

>>>Honesty starts at home.
>>
>>We'll see.
>>
>>-JoAnne
>
>Whose home are you thinking of?

Everyone's, and the perception that what one says is honest, and when it
leaves its home it is suddenly not at home and suddenly may not look
honest.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 03:04:59 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 6 Jun 1998 14:07:55
-0400 you wrote:

[your opinion of what happened here, setting everyone straight once again.
Then...]

>JoAnne - your search for your truth is your search - I'm not
>here to join your religion just to make you feel more
>secure in this world. I am not the Devil, and your truth
>does not live or die just because I do or don't affirm it.
>What we most accuse others of is our shadow - what
>is your real relationship with your own "truth"? It's not
>whether *I* am truthful that bothers you - it's whether
>you are yourself.

Do you really believe that what you accuse others of must necessarily, by
your own lights, be what you are most guilty of?  When you look back at
what you accuse people of, how does that principle make you feel?

>For example, when JoAnne announces she doesn't trust
>me, doesn't think I'm truthful, what's she really grappling with?
>She would still be grappling with those issues if I didn't exist,
>because they are her issues. What doesn't she trust in herself?
>What is there about her own "truths" that she distrusts? She was
>angry about my grief process - and then revealed that no one
>was there for her when her father died. Ergo - she resents
>anyone being there for me.

I don't agree with your assessment of my feelings when my father died.  I
feel you are joining together unrelated tidbits and leaving out the
majority of the story, and that the context is lost.

>Let's express our anger if we want to, but don't name
>our anger, "Void", or by the name of anyone else who
>comes on this List. Let's deal with the issues instead
>of victimizing or scapegoating any individuals. And let's
>look inwward instead of dumping our stuff on each other.

I wish you would stop dumping your diagnoses on me!

-JoAnne

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Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 03:05:01 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: on language - and  truth
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Hello Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>, on Fri, 5 Jun 1998 22:48:01 +0300
you wrote:

>Hi Robert, Simon, JoAnne and   all,
>
>This is a confession. I'm a  liar.  I wrote two days ago:
>
>>Sometimes I  also like  arguing, but  I preferred that  someone
>>else than me is right.
>It must be: Sometimes I  like  to argue, but I prefer that someone  else
>than me is wrong..
>I shouldn't  write  tired .  In that  state my brains keep dozing off,  the
>shadow  steps in and begins to  express odd opinions.  Interesting that it
>prefers to be  wrong!

Oh, it's easier to be wrong, isn't it?  You don't have to be perfect, or
even half right.  You can be totally whatever you feel, knowing that it is
wrong, and when you say, yes, I'm wrong, you're free!

So truth and not being wrong are not the same, I think:

>     But one of  the  head ideologist of the  Western  culture, Jesus, who
>said something that, the Truth  will make you free?

Freedom to be wrong, a powerful freedom.

>    JoAnne. asked, whose  truth ?  That's  the dilemma.  There are  so many
>truths in the  world.  Too many  human beings  have died  for sometimes this
>and sometime that truth.   I  suspect all truths.  That's why  - perhaps -
>my shadow  expressed that it  don't  like to be right.
>" You who seek  the truth
>  seek the wall.
>  The stone, the other stone, the other.
>  lean your back or your forehead
>  against the wall
>  upright in the right
>  with the small coins in your pocket
>  noiseless
>  gold or silver
>  unrefunded
>  And dream"

I like this.  I like the tactile imagery.

>It  was  written by Yannis Ritsos, Greek poet,  during  the  dictatorship of
>Junta, when  he was first  arrested by the police,  then  sent to  the
>dentition camp of  Leros. After an international outcry he was permitted to
>return to his home-island  Samos, where his movements were restricted and
>always shadowed of spies, mail was forbidden him, and no persons other than
>those of his immediate family was allowed to approach him or to speak to
>him, not even his neighbours or townspeople.

What a horrible thing.  But of horrible things good can come too.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 21:07:03 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
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Julienne

> I can't speak about Void - I wasn't here, and came into the void that
> was created as he left by arriving on the List right as he departed, I
> gather. That I think is an important thought to keep in mind. I think
> this list probably had a lot of unfinished business with Void which
> needed to either be handled or be dumped somewhere. It seems
> to me the List chose to dump it instead of processing it.

I agree.  I had taken a period of leave from the list for a period of
two months only to return near the end of that engagement with Void.  As
well, I was unsure about returning to the list as I had left the list
and cyberspace without offering time and space for closure ... I carried
my own clowd.  The new voices belonging to you and and JoAnne came with
its own on-going dialogue. I remember some of these, especially as the
dialogues became metaphors of beans and dingos and cows.  I seem to
remember entering back into the dialogue about this time.  It took a
while for my own unfinished business with the list to be adressed.  And
in time, that unfinished business came to be finished.

> I don't feel comfortable with anger - it's distressing to feel so out of
> control and to realize that there's a part of me which isn't acting or
> emoting in as spiritual and always-kind ways as I would like to think I
> could.

This is something we share in common, the feeling of discomfort with
anger.  This is something that I am coming to grips with in my personal
analysis.

> When it all came to a head, several list members left. Other
> list members then expressed mourning statements. I don't know
> the whole story about who left the List. We do know that some of
> those who expressed the most anger left, such as Wilbur.

That's the problem with these cyberspace lists.  Much that has been said
over a period of years is unheard by others who dance in and out of
listserv discussion groups.  When all is heard, that which is heard is
often heard differently.  I can't really speak for Void as I didn't hear
all of his story on this list, there wasn't much time spent here for a
larger sense of his/her "otherness".  Wilbur left.  I am sure many of
those who were new here wanted him gone.  I am not sure that this was
the case for those who have long histories with Wilbur here.

This does not excuse the words said by Void, Wilbur, or ANY on this
list.  But, in leaving/being banished (what is the difference) it is
next to impossible for closure to happen.  I do remember my wanting some
controls here from Walter at that time, a sense of leadership, something
that I know realise couldn't come from Walter as it had to come from
each of us individually.

> some on the List play the
> lions, and others play the rulers who condone this in
> their society, and others play the poets and minstrels
> whose participation hides behind a facade of "beauty".

Playing as a poet and minstrel?  Not a playing, it is a "being", an
authentic way of being.  I don't want to comment until I know the
intent, the purpose, the motivation of these words which seem to me to
reflect anger.

> Those who like to write poetry and communicate in gentler ways
> are aghast, deleting, pleading with us all to be nice. They are
> also saying they are ignoring us and deleting us.

Yes.  I "delete" posts unread.  If someone wants to feel that he/she is
"deleted" then that is a personal choice, not an intention of the act of
deleting a posting or a series of postings.  If I don't have the energy
or time or motivation to engage in one dialogue or another, then I must
recognise and honour that in myself.  This list is not my only way of
being in the world.  This list doesn't define me.  This list does allow
me to engage in my way, in my time.  It would be great if I had
unlimited time and words to speak to all

... Judith, I am disconsolate that my words were not there as your
shared your story here.  I read them and felt it enough. You know me
somewhat and I hope that this is enough.

> I m not defending JoAnne here, but I am suggesting that you
> quit talking about us. We are not your problem.

That dialogue is happening on the list.  As such it is an open
dialogue.  If there is no wish to have this an open dialogue with open
participation over the dynamics of that Julienne/JoAnne dialogue then
that dialogue would best be served off-list.

> And whether you rage at one or the
> other of us, or write sad poems about the horror of it all,
> each has to take responsibility for his or her input into the
> aggression which was evoked and displayed on this list
> well before we even arrived.

What is being talked about here?

> Let's express our anger if we want to, but don't name
> our anger, "Void", or by the name of anyone else who
> comes on this List.

Does this include "poets"?  Or, is it open season on those who appear to
wear a false mask, a mask of "different"?

> Let's deal with the issues instead
> of victimizing or scapegoating any individuals.

I see this as a place of individuals, not a place of issues.  I don't
think that I can "objectify" so cleanly and still maintain the attitude
that issues are just people engaged.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 22:15:32 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Meeseo, Robert...
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Julienne

> Robert, I would like to suggest that you and Meeseo are in a privileged
> position. It is those of us down in the dirt who are doing a great deal
> of your work for you, while you assume the holy roles of poet and
> saint.

Where did this come from?  Priviledged?  What knowledge do you have that
I don't have?  Do you really want to know?  Do you really want to know
who I am and destroy these illusions that you have constructed?  The
words I speak here are authentic and are not some facade, some mask,
some fictitious theatre.

> Further, the stories have been told from time to time through
> artistic expressions - at last I have posted poetry as well as
> have others. But I fail to see why it is only some art forms which
> are acceptable as art. Discursive writing is also a form of
> art - as can be almost any form of writing.

Who disputes this?  Who is being critic?  Who has denigrated these
words, their form?

> We are the players acting it out on the stage for you, while you
> sit and gasp at what you're seeing as if you couldn't possibly
> be in the same position. Sort of like affluent whites gasping at the
> "bad" behaviour of deprived kids in the ghetto.

Julienne, in case it got missed, Meeseo and I share this stage too.
Perhaps that got missed.  I do wonder why the lashing out is happening,
the judging and denigrating is happening.  I wonder at the need, the
motive, the, the hope.

> Meeseo, do you realize how judgmental your words are?

Julienne, listen to these words.  What do you hear?

> And from where, but our cores, do the rest of us speak, Robert?
> What I am learning in watching you and Meeseo is how I usually
> am. I am usually the poet/peacemaker. That is my reputation/role on
> at least one other psychological list I am on.

Is this part of the reason for what I sense as anger?

> What if we all exchanged roles on here? What if you and Meeseo
> assumed the "angry" roles instead? How would that feel for you?

Roles aren't artificial.  They grow naturally out our need, out of the
imperatives of our shadows.  It's hard enough to just "be" without
trying to be what I am not.

> You have been going through a period of great confusion, depression,
> alienation, in your personal journey. What part has repressed and
> denied anger had in creating that inner state for you?

Not only confusion, depression, and alienation.  Include a growing
revelation, relation to other, and growing sense of peace as part of
that journey.  Are you offering to be my analyst?

> Why am I still here, Meeseo? I am not sure. Sometimes
> I think I'm slumming among a bunch of unenlightened,
> really nasty and holier-than-thou people.

Unenlightened?  Nasty?  Yes, I still have a lot to learn and a lot to
atone for.  Maybe some day I will be considered worthy enough to escape
the slum that you now fin yourself in while talking with me .... ;)

I'm looking forward to continuing the dialogue, honestly.

Robert

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Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:17:47 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
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At 07:29 PM 6/6/98 +0100, Simon wrote:
>Julienne wrote:
>>My children (22 and 25) and I get angry with
>>each other fairly frequently, but we have found it too painful to stay in
>>that state. We use a lot of humour, we laugh at ourselves, we have family
>>jokes, and ways of relating to each other when we're stressed and angry.
>>But we've also learned to not always deal with things when we're angry.
>>We'll go off and do other things, think, do chores - whatever.  We talk a
>>lot, and we are concerned about each other, and so we try to understand
>>what has happened - why we may be upset and angry. Although the first
>>instinct is to be angry at "the other" we are well aware that the anger is
>>about our own stuff. And so our conversations are not usually about what
>>someone "did" to someone else, but what the one who is feeling anger is
>>upset about. Rather than flaming out at each other, we usually do a lot of
>>consoling of whomever of us is feeling angry.

>Which begs the question: why not here? Is it that the container is
>inadequate? Or that there's an insufficient basis for trust? Or
>insufficient depth of relationship?

>All quite possible, to my mind. Especially as, to my best recollection,
>I've yet to see any evidence that anger can be handled in a beneficial way
>in cyberspace.

Why not here? When I introduced myself here, JoAnne jumped all over
me with accusations, and there was little let-up from there. When I
responded to a post where questions of gender were raised in a
very measured way, Wilbur was all over me. The die was cast. I
feel no sense of trust with this list.

The response from the list has not been the same as with my

children, and my attempts to do here what we do at home were
rejected.

Except when JoAnne came on my List, we have managed to
handle anger there. But it's not a list where we process as we
do here. It's a professional discussion List where we are not
as busy discussing each other's motives. And yet we have a
number of off-list friendships which have developed through
the List, and many who connect via the telephone and ICQ
as well. I just spent a few days at a conference where one of
the List members was also an attendee, and we had several
meals together and spent time intentionally to get to know
each other better. More of us know more details about each
other's lives than we seem to know here. When one list member
recently had a financial crisis we raised the money to help
save him from eviction without a lot of fanfare.

Are we kind but dishonest? I don't think so. When we disagree
with each other, we tend to say so - but not to the point of
ramming it down each other's throats as happens when
JoAnne is there. We're not angels - we get cranky and
abrupt and at times insensitive, but the only time we had
any prolonged episode of real hostility which lasted over
the span of a few posts back and forth, was when JoAnne
was there.

As we are trying to discuss professional issues and
questions, when a topic is instead reduced to personal attacks
on the poster instead of the content of the post, we get
nowhere, and we lose the more serious professionals
who don't want to waste their time with that.

Another issue to look at is that no one comes out of such
episodes cleanly. Most people don't read every post, or
know the personal histories, and just as we have here
on this list at the moment, all people know is that there's
a lot of unpleasantness going on, and they don't want
to open their e-mail in the morning. They don't know
who started it, or even who said what, nor do they want
to be bothered with thinking about that. Next thing, they go off
to another professional List where they can discuss the
same topics without the unpleasantness. They don't
specifically remember who said what - all they know is
that what's being said is inappropriate.

I have also had people check with me and with each other
by e-mail or ICQ when they were concerned about the tone
of a post - and that has helped to clarify matters and heal
misunderstandings.

We actually know a lot more about each other than people
seem to know on here. We share life crises and issues,
and step in to help where we can. We have someone on the
list now who is in the hospital with cancer, and we share
news of her - in fact her middle-aged daughter sends us
reports every few days, and we respond in various ways,
from making phone calls to her to sending cards and
flowers. Yet when my parents died, JoAnne told me to
go away until I was fit for "normal" society again, and said
I shouldn't be on this list until I had healed enough from
their deaths to be able to deal fully with any hostility.
 And when Robert told this list he was having problems and
leaving his job for a while, he was read the riot act.

Well...enough.

Julienne

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Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 01:30:36 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Meeseo-to Robert and Julienne
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Dear Meeseo,

At 05:09 PM 6/6/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Robert & Julienne

>Then, I realize I was wrong, in a sense.
>...so to speak, that my attitute was not good.
>In fact, since the disputes of March , I read emails from Psyber-L,
>but not in detail.
>it was because of my headache caused by the disputes between Julienne&
>Joanne, Joanne&susan,  Julienne &Walter, Walter & susanne, etc...
>
>I used to judge that in each case, one was too tenacious and the other
>was wise, one was right and the other is wrong.
>
>At that time, for About 3 days,
>I read many terrible emails, and then I sent one email to Psyber-L.
>The mail was nearly a prayer to me.
>
>I wanted to tell a lot at that time. but I couldn't.
>I was too busy for preparing my essay, and reading aggressive emails
>was too painful to me.  I was very suffocated.

>I didn't want to see the bare shadows of mind, here.
>But I could understand their minds in my own way.
>Walter's self-conceit as List owner.
>Julienne's wounded heart and potential hatred.
>Joanne's hurt feelings and agressiveness.
>...etc...

When you mentioned above my "potential hatred",
 I know what you meant, and what you must be
picking up in me. There is indeed a part of me
that feels very, very angry and hurt at the way I have
been treated and received on this list. Even when
Walter now welcomes people, I find myself wondering
why I wasn't welcomed - but the answer is that no one
was welcomed in those days.

I was thinking as I wrote posts earlier today, "I wonder
what people will think of what I'm writing? What will
JoAnne attack, what will others dismiss?" - and I found

myself saying, "I don't care".  I don't think everyone will
be so negative in response, but enough will. I tried to say
on the List that I am feeling better about my parents'
deaths now, but I don't feel that much better, and I am
disappointed about human beings that they could be so
cold to me and so cruel at such a time in my life. But
it is not just me, and I know that. As my father died
last year, I saw a lot of indifference, cruelty,
irresponsibility, directed at him. My brothers abandoned
him - refused to visit him, called him "a vegetable". The
doctor didn't see him for the last 9 months of his life,
and refused calls about him. My brothers stole all
his stuff and beat me up for trying to protect him. The
courts finally gave me a restraining order the 4th time
I tried, but only after my doctor was forced to present tons
of documentation about my injuries. The court didn't want to
hear about what was happening to my father because of my
brothers. The police and judges and lawyers kept diminishing
it by calling it a "family dispute" - though my doctor was very
adamant that what was happening to me and to my father was
violence.

That's what I see on this List as well - a diminishing of violence.
Not just physical, but also psychological. We live in a very violent
world, where children are regularly abandoned and abused,
where the elderly are thrown away, where women fight for their
existence, where baby girls are killed at birth, where little boys
are denied gentleness so they'll become toughened, where
animals are hunted for "sport", where Gaia's forests are burned

and her air so heavy we can hardly breathe. And so much more.
And we deny and diminish it all.

And I hear JoAnne saying, "toughen up!" - and wanting to increase
the suffering around her because of her anger in the guise of
honesty and frankness which is not honesty at all - but a denial
of wounding, and a distortion of her own acts and the acts of
others. Because one shouts for honesty does not mean one is
honest - and yet this list rallies around because there seems to be
a need to believe her without examining what it is which some of
the people here feed into in her need to hurt others. It's like in the
military
where people are taught to dehumanize others, and taught to
humiliate those who still have feelings or empathy.

How easy it would be to hate. But hating is also useless and
very shortsighted. When we hate people we are only seeing
one side of them - the wounded side. We're not seeing what
caused the wounds, and we're not dealing with the wounds.
We can either self-righteously point out the deficits in another
person, or we can work to heal wounds and prevent further
wounds. If all we feel is the hate, then we quickly become
cynical and depressed, and life becomes an ordeal in
fatefulness. If we can get beyond the hate, then we come to
a place where we can work to understand the foundations
of hate, and to find ways to heal it in ourselves and the
world around us.

>Despite of it,
> I was silent and I haven't post for a long time.
> I had no confidence to persuade anybody.
> I was cowardly.
> Of course, It's not changed still.

I have no confidence that there is much hope of persuading anyone

here of anything either. :) But we can always throw out seeds. To
give up and do nothing is to succumb to paralysis of the spirit.
Change doesn't always happen overnight, anyway. Maybe the changes
in all of us will only show in many years to come, and even later in the
planet.

>Now I know that I claimed only my own view in previsous letter.  My
>attitude is also wrong.

>In fact, I always used to think that shadows evoke shadows, lights
>evoke lights, hates evoke hates, love evoke love.

I still believe that, but I no longer expect immediate response.

>So I usually don't want to express my bad feelings and immediatly try
>to forget it and it soon disappear.
>(there are Jesus Christ and Buddha among my friends).
>It might be that I turn my face from it for being freed from it. I
>know the inner shadows, too much.

And it doesn't necessarily disappear either. There are times
when I think that not responding to "the bad" is the right
response, as perhaps we drain it of energy by so doing.
But sometimes not responding just frees it to grow
exponentially because we didn't interrupt its growth - we
didn't stand up to it or transmute it. Other times, it might
be that responding to it will bring it out into the light where
it can be transmuted.

>I know your minds( Robert, Julienne) very little.

That makes me smile.There has been so much pronouncement
on this list of whom I am, and whom others are, that it's really
encouraging to see someone not so sure. :)

>When I have more time, I email to you more.
>it takes time for me to write in English.
>I have to finish my translation and report, until this month.... so.

Meeseo, I am in the middle of trying to find a new place to
live and probating my father's will and sorting out his affairs
and estate matters, as well as a thousand and one things that
I am not sure how on earth I'm ever going to get through, that
you can take your time. :) But I look forward to getting to know
you, Meeseo. :) Good luck with your work...

>  *Julienne
> I am very sorry to answer to you in such a way.
> It was not an email, but a cry.
> please forgive me.

Meeseo, I know. There is no need for forgiveness. I
wish I had been better able to handle my experience
on this List so that you might never have had to cry out
in such a way - so please forgive me too.

Love,

Julienne

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Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 03:49:04 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Meeseo
In-Reply-To:  <35739DF6.18A0@cybersurf.net>
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Hullo Robert,

Meeseo wrote:

>> But, while I am noticing the tenacious hatred and stubbornness, here,
>> I suspect the possibility of the change in mind through art theraphy
>> in internet.
>> In fact, in these days, I don't read many emails from Psyber-L
>> They are nearly spam to me.
>> ......same hates.same disputes.. ...etc...
>> Despite of it, because I am still expecting something else, I am still
>> here.
>>
>> I am sorry to tell you about my feelings.

And then you wrote:

>Meeseo, these spam/flame e-mails of stubborness and hate have resulted
>in much silence and much noise.  I think too much of responding and find
>my fingers busy with other tasks such as painting, playing my guitar,
>writing words that don't find a listener in cyberspace, and testing the
>matrix of mind and body in the art of golf, a curious dance of skill and
>frustration.

Robert,

You ask in another post where my remarks about poetry, etc, come from.
This is one of the posts which evoked it, but not the only one. I am still
trying to respond to posts accusing me of so many painful things, when
I would much rather be silent and writing more of my own poetry, playing
my guitar, singing, and doing other creative and pleasurable things.
And my response was to your characterization of my efforts as just
"spam/e-mail flames of stubbornness".  It is distressing to think that's
all you see in what I've been trying to write. I realize it isn't "all" you've
mentioned, and that I am not the only one to whom you refer, but the
above is a pretty dismissive statement. I'll go on to your other post
to respond more fully.

Julienne

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Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 08:50:19 -0600
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Julienne,

>  And when Robert told this list he was having problems and
> leaving his job for a while, he was read the riot act.

One male reacted negatively, judgementally.  With a continued dialogue
with him, his position changed along with his diagnosis of me.  The rest
of the list was supportive, very supportive (including your post).  No
riot act was read, just one post.

Robert

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Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:21:08 -0700
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: dialogue of intentions
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Simon, all,

Hope you don't mind picking this up after a week. You left off (imagining
you're kind of like an "idea postman") some good packages.


>Date:         Mon, 1 Jun 1998 20:06:18 +0100
>From: "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>Subject:      Re: dialogue of intentions

[snip] >Usually there's an
>interplay of justification and questioning (part of the drama of the drama,
>yes?). So an interesting question might be: at what stage do you decide the
>'on balance' bit?

(Wandering outloud.)

One aspect, which I guess is obvious, is the movement from justification
into questioning. (Demarcated by a question!) Also, there are several
senses of *justification*, especially when it occurs after the fact. One,
is the kind of justification which fits into our 'stating our case,'
(purposely chosen instead of the loaded term, arguement,) and may be both
primary, i.e. propositional, or secondary, which is the catagory which
opens up to include elements which tend to, in our own mind at least,
reinforce our credibility. (With both types of justification, there might
be questions of validity raised, 'outside of our own mind'. This not the
kind of questioning which necessarily makes a difference; in fact, it can
feed the pattern, lock it into a loop.)

***

Justification in these respects may be private (introspective; 'in our own
mind' to our self,) or public. I'm tempted to turn around
*self-justification* into *justification-self*, but I suppose that is a new
thread!

When one begins to question their justification(s), then the 'state' (for
lack of a better term,) has moved into questioning.

It is a very good question to inquire what moves one from justification
into questioning. I think we observe here in Psyber-L that it is not
movement purchased most easily through the questioning of other person's
justification(s).

*Justification* may become a very habituated scheme. Again, it doesn't seem
to do the drama much good to have the chorus shouting "Question!" over and
over again, or to shout specific questions.

***

>So maybe the 'on balance' bit comes at the point where we
>decide that either the law of diminishing returns or the law of increasing
>returns has kicked in (er, I think I just made that last one up!). Hmm, how
>might a law of increasing returns be phrased/framed?!

The gap in the reasoningdrama (which is the point when a

*process insight-intention-commitment*

allows a person to transcend habituated 'logic' and the behavior determined
by the logic's rules,) literally allows a person to live the question and
realize increasing returns. Or:

Another way to feel about this kind of formulation, is to hypothesize: are
increasing returns highly correlated with the introduction of novel
insights and new intentions?

***

It would be somewhat rhetorical to call such new intentions, 'reharmonized
intentions', but, often, the habituated relational or communicative
patterns between persons will suddenly be made to leap out of their stasis
once one of the persons has had an insight powerful enough to overturn
their old 'stuck' logics. Thus, the situation moves from its tired (and
tiring!) energy-sucking pattern via a leap into an energy-creating
pattern...call it a new chord.

***

(Musical metaphors are appropriate. I happen to like very very intense
music. There is a particular form which is appealing to me: organized at
the beginning->moving into a crescendo of intensity->resolved into a higher
organization than at the beginning (may have) implied. There are moments in
Richard Strauss and Mahler which apply, and even more, for me, are the
examples of large ensemble work by jazz-oriented composers such as Anthony
Braxton and Cecil Taylor, (Coltrane comes to mind also,) but the paragon
would be the modern composers, prime examples wopuld be Lutoslawski and
Messiaen, who take different tacts in moving their large scale pieces into
resolutions which make explicit higher levels of harmony and order and
process in the form of a gyre.

Another example: there are various trance musics. The introduction of
changes in the pattern of the music may be so subtle, 'small', that to many
persons the pattern of the music just repeats itself. To others listening
receptively, (and listening in a manner somewhat outside the perceptual
filtering which causes one to miss the small alterations,) the music starts
to become much more incrementally intense, but its resolution in a higher
harmony will then be unmistakeable, even to the point of reordering the
listener. Ooooh! Intention of the listener is the determining factor: if
the intention is not clear at the beginning, the listener may be let in but
not let out via the resolution; (somewhat of a challenge for the
practitioner!) )

***

Even harmonious patterns repeated without variation eventually seem to grate.

Perhaps, we live for novelty but are sometimes too stuck, even if in a
'static harmony' to know it.

I look forward to your, Simon's or anybody's, extension of these wanderings.

***

regards,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:20:40 +0300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's honest truth
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Hello HooN, John, Julienne and all,

HooN  wrote:
>I can be shown by many others the key, the lock, the
> door any number of times, but only God and my intention can put my hand on
>the key. Grace fused with intention.

And John responded  to him:
>A nice old man (wise old man?)  who had befriended me in another previous
dream said he would >give me a ride home if I would drive.  He gave me his
car keys and I went off looking for the car,
>but guess what ?  I had the key, but I couldn't find the car.   So sometimes
>even having the key may not be enough! :-)

Talking of  the key,  I happened to read  a  poem  entitled  Hoonesty (
sorry, I mean Honesty)   this morning  just before  opening the e-mail box.
It  was  written by   Yannis Ritsos during his arrest . I  read nowadays
every morning one of his  poem and meditate it.   He  writes:

                                               "And perhaps - who knows-
perhaps it is you who gives the order, even before night falls,
to light  the green globes in the church courtyard,
for this is a time of difficult  contraries.
                                                 yes you,
who  have been authorized (by whom) to put in the poem openly
the wooden horses, the  keys of old lost valises,
and  those rubber imitations of three or more frogs
so they may leap softly in the  watered nonexistent garden."

Having read your dream, John, I thought this  poem  may  be a response to  it.

 I  continued  to read  e-mails. There were many  angry and accusing words
from you , Julienne.  You  wrote  once again, how  bad  your   brothers were
when, your  father was dying,   and  how bad the  world  is,  to say nothing
of this list -   a   snake's nest, as you once compared.   It suddenly
occurred to me  that you  might be  very depressive, because  you see so
much  bad   and negative here and there , and everywhere.  I  recalled, that
Liz  Greene - you  may  know her, Julienne -  has  written something about
the entanglement of  anger  and depression. I  took a book  Dynamics of the
Unconscious and read, that  "  depression is  anger's near cousin" . And
"under depression lurks anger", and vice versa, as I think.   Greene  tells
a Vedic story about  a snake  who  is terrifying a village.   I have  always
liked this story very much, so I  quote  it from Greene :
" The snake  is biting and killing people. A sage comes to town preaching
his philosophy of love  and spiritual understanding. The snake happens to
hear one of  the sage's lectures  and is so moved that it decides to put the
sage's teaching into practice. The snake has a kind of breakthrough, and
overnight, vows not to bite people or be nasty anymore. For the next month
or so, the transformed snake has  the manners of a saint.  Meanwhile, the
sage has moved on to another village. Eventually, the sage comes back to the
snake's town. He meets the snake again, but  the once mighty snake is now a
mess-downtrodden, beaten, kicked around  and  taken  advantage of.  The
snake  comes up to the sage and says: I want my money  back, I tried your
philosophy of love and spiritual  understanding and see where it got me. I'm
supposed to be enlighten now, but look at me. I'm  half dead." The sage
succinctly replies, "I never told you not to hiss."

Honestly yours
Anita

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Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 11:59:53 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's honest truth
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Hi Anita,

At 06:20 PM 6/7/98 +0300, you wrote:
>Hello HooN, John, Julienne and all,
>
>HooN  wrote:
>>I can be shown by many others the key, the lock, the
>> door any number of times, but only God and my intention can put my hand on
>>the key. Grace fused with intention.
>
>And John responded  to him:
>>A nice old man (wise old man?)  who had befriended me in another previous
>dream said he would >give me a ride home if I would drive.  He gave me his
>car keys and I went off looking for the car,
>>but guess what ?  I had the key, but I couldn't find the car.   So sometimes
>>even having the key may not be enough! :-)
>
>Talking of  the key,  I happened to read  a  poem  entitled  Hoonesty (
>sorry, I mean Honesty)   this morning  just before  opening the e-mail box.
>It  was  written by   Yannis Ritsos during his arrest . I  read nowadays
>every morning one of his  poem and meditate it.   He  writes:
>
>                                               "And perhaps - who knows-
>perhaps it is you who gives the order, even before night falls,
>to light  the green globes in the church courtyard,
>for this is a time of difficult  contraries.
>                                                 yes you,
>who  have been authorized (by whom) to put in the poem openly
>the wooden horses, the  keys of old lost valises,
>and  those rubber imitations of three or more frogs
>so they may leap softly in the  watered nonexistent garden."
>
>Having read your dream, John, I thought this  poem  may  be a response to
it.
>
> I  continued  to read  e-mails. There were many  angry and accusing words
>from you , Julienne.  You  wrote  once again, how  bad  your   brothers were
>when, your  father was dying,   and  how bad the  world  is,  to say nothing
>of this list -   a   snake's nest, as you once compared.   It suddenly
>occurred to me  that you  might be  very depressive, because  you see so
>much  bad   and negative here and there , and everywhere.  I  recalled, that
>Liz  Greene - you  may  know her, Julienne -  has  written something about
>the entanglement of  anger  and depression. I  took a book  Dynamics of the
>Unconscious and read, that  "  depression is  anger's near cousin" . And
>"under depression lurks anger", and vice versa, as I think.   Greene  tells
>a Vedic story about  a snake  who  is terrifying a village.   I have  always
>liked this story very much, so I  quote  it from Greene :
>" The snake  is biting and killing people. A sage comes to town preaching
>his philosophy of love  and spiritual understanding. The snake happens to
>hear one of  the sage's lectures  and is so moved that it decides to put the
>sage's teaching into practice. The snake has a kind of breakthrough, and
>overnight, vows not to bite people or be nasty anymore. For the next month
>or so, the transformed snake has  the manners of a saint.  Meanwhile, the
>sage has moved on to another village. Eventually, the sage comes back to the
>snake's town. He meets the snake again, but  the once mighty snake is now a
>mess-downtrodden, beaten, kicked around  and  taken  advantage of.  The
>snake  comes up to the sage and says: I want my money  back, I tried your

>philosophy of love and spiritual  understanding and see where it got me. I'm
>supposed to be enlighten now, but look at me. I'm  half dead." The sage
>succinctly replies, "I never told you not to hiss."

So I'm hissing.

Julienne

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Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:51:36 -0700
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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>Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:49:17 +0100
>From: "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Truth

>Truth itself, I would suggest, stands apart from all perspective and
>motive. Perhaps it can only ever be experienced, never conveyed.

Of course, it cannot do this. Even experience 'perspects' its subjects.
Which is a bit of a conundrum whether one traffics in objective truths or
mystical apprehensions! Or some perspective in-between or outside of those
perspectives.

"Even the measuring device is measured." Truth is a shell game, then.

***

Truth is also one of most loaded words in the English language. (Probably
in most other languages too...I, for one, would like to know about
foreign-to-me languages which gradiate truth into many other words.)

We put up with someone delivering to us "the honest truth", or people
stating, ' "I'm about the truth!" without *any* qualification'.

***

Which truth are you speaking of?

Oh, the logical truth.

Which logic are you speaking of?

Oh, the 2 value logic.

Do you know it *well*?

***

It would be easy to stop at the 2 value logic and deductive arguement and
value truth only as far it represents a valid conclusion following from
valid premises; (an arguement which cannot proceed to valid conclusions
unless its premises are valid.)

Unfortunately, the mind doesn't seem to work naturally that way, nor does
the logical anatomy of most interpersonal discourse, when it is reduced to
its constituent assertions and what those atomized assertions indicate,
reveal the process of thought 'behind' the assertions. (Viewed this way, it
might be hypothesized: the human cognitive predisposition naturally favors
invalid premises. <g>)

(We note in the rarest of instances hyper-critical thinking which, in an
agonizing-to-our-sloppier, beautiful cognition, is exactingly and formally
consistent. But, there has to be extremely rigorous 'starting' conditions
applied for this to happen. At the same time, an entirely logical arguement
or discourse may eventuate but still not be correlated with similarly
logical cognition. Great breakthroughs in mathematics, chemistry, physics,
have often followed intuitions, even dreams, and only then been made into a
consistent arguement.

Most interpersonal relating is so far outside the cone of this kind of
discourse, that to appeal to, or represent some sort of rigorous
truthmaking as the principal reality of such interpersonal discourses is
an, ironically, illogical reduction. Might we allow the following premise
"interpersonal discourse is messy, complex" to be 'true'?)

Our thought processes may be reduced to a logical anatomy but the logical
anatomy does not reveal how it is a 'mind' (ha, a brain!) cognitively
generates discourse. The reduction leaves out most of what is interesting
about the generation of discourse, of course. <g>

So it is, that an appeal to truth based on this reduction, is itself a
limited truth; i.e. it isn't the whole, or 'wholistic' truth. Furthermore,
the 'whole' truth probably does not follow from simple, true/false logics,
and may encompass elements of other logics. Example: the logics of the
reasoningdrama, that are subjective and represent our own 'rules' which are
only validated by our individual propensity to be attached to them, to have
our awareness and or behavior driven to some lesser or greater extent by
these kinds of rules.

***

Truth then: one view is it stands outside of all but the logic which
justifies it 'best' (and the shell game wherein 'best' is further
justified...), another view is truth organized around questioning in it's
reasoningdrama gap; truth neither wholistic or closed off "into its own
logic".

There is critical thinking that atomizes and finds value in the reduction
to assertions and explication of their validity and then there is critical
thinking which stands humbled before the complexity and colliding logics of
our discourse. In the latter case even two half truths cannot add up to the
whole truth.

***

first person: God speaks to me!

second person: I do not!

***

braying and praying,

HooN













Expert novices continually suspend what they know in order to discover what
they don't know. When you think like a genius, you often work outside your
expertise -looking beyond the knowledge you've acquired or the concepts
you've created. You're continually walking to the edge of your expertise.
When you think like a genius, you naturally makes waves. -Todd Siler

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:15:19 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Meeseo, Robert...
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Robert, Meeseo

I enjoy your poetry and the grace you afford this list.


Julienne

I am saddened by your overwhelmingly judgemental and angry responses to
Robert, Meeseo, myself, and others.  I think you see criticism and
ill-feeling towards you where there is none.

Reading the list at the moment is not a good way for me to start or end my
day, so I choose now to take some time out.  I sincerely wish for you quiet
peace.

Barry

----------
> From: Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: [P] Meeseo, Robert...
> Date: Sunday, June 07, 1998 12:33 PM
>
> At 12:03 PM 6/6/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
> >Meeseo,
> >
> >It sometimes is hard to hold onto the tensions that come out of
> >arguement and misunderstandings that we hear as we sit on the sidelines,
> >especially when the nature of this medium draws us into conversation,
> >into the fringes of the disputes.  There is "worth" that has come out of
> >it.  Your little poem and my response to it are but examples of this
> >"worth".
>
> Robert, I would like to suggest that you and Meeseo are in a privileged
> position. It is those of us down in the dirt who are doing a great deal
> of your work for you, while you assume the holy roles of poet and
> saint.
>
> >> We know the stories too much.
> >> I was not here at that time when the disputes began.
> >> But I know  the beginnings and results of the disputes very well.
> >
> >As painful as these disputes are to those who are central to them AND to
> >those who witness them, there is some need being met in clinging so
> >desperately to the disputes.  That we have held here speaks of some need
> >for ourselves as well, some very uncomfortable need that perhaps is not
> >even recognised, needs that would rather be denied.
>
> Exactly.
>
> >> *The stories* are said *repeatedly* whenever there are chances.
> >> Further, *the stories* have been said not by artistic
> >> expressions(music, poem..etc)
>
> >The stories are told from "gut" places.  Like the raw materials that are
> >used in alchemy, materials that are dank and dark, these "gut" stories,
> >given the right cooking conditions within this cooking container called
> >PSYBER-L, may become transformed into "gold" into art.
>
> Further, the stories have been told from time to time through
> artistic expressions - at last I have posted poetry as well as
> have others. But I fail to see why it is only some art forms which
> are acceptable as art. Discursive writing is also a form of
> art - as can be almost any form of writing.
>
> >> But I think this case is different from it.
> >> In my feeling, They/we  are not healed by their disputes.
> >> Further, they/we are hurting  each other more and more severely.
> >> They evoke all kinds of bad memories and say " you are wrong,
> >> I am right, you hurt me, I am hurt.. ..." repeatedly.
> >
> >But they do end up feeling even more intensely their hurts.  With a
> >triggered awareness coming from the tension of the disputes which hurt
> >so much, they may come to recognise, we may come to recognise, the roots
> >of hurt within "self" and move/transcend through the hurt to a newer
> >vision of self, and self in relation.
>
> We are the players acting it out on the stage for you, while you
> sit and gasp at what you're seeing as if you couldn't possibly
> be in the same position. Sort of like affluent whites gasping at the
> "bad" behaviour of deprived kids in the ghetto.
>
> >> It's not an attitude searching for a true healing.
> >> It's not a communication.
> >> They don't listen to the opponent's voice.
> >> They claim only the opponent's faults and their own hurts.
>
> Meeseo, do you realize how judgmental your words are?
>
> >And, so do we.  Each of these trigger within us as others constellated
> >in distant relation to the dispute, our own attitudes, our own faults,
> >our own hurts.  Thinking we have buried these and have moved on with our
>
> >lives, our "reaction" to these disputes shows us the fault of such
> >thoughts.  These things are again unearthed and we face our own pain and
> >garbage.  Can we face them and accept them, even embrace them so that we
> >can truly become unstuck? Or, will we again banish them to the depths
> >with denial as we implore others to cease their bickering so that we can
> >have peace from our own demons?
>
> >> I want to tell a lot, but I can't express my thoughts fully.
> >> I am not a native speaker in English. so..
> >
> >Meeseo.  That you speak so fully with the English language is testament
> >of your desire to communicate.  I understand you very well, perhaps
> >better than I understand the voices of many others here.  You speak from
> >your core and that always finds ways to bridge to other.
> >
> >thinking of you this Saturday morning as once again the disputes rage on
>
> And from where, but our cores, do the rest of us speak, Robert?
> What I am learning in watching you and Meeseo is how I usually
> am. I am usually the poet/peacemaker. That is my reputation/role on
> at least one other psychological list I am on. It is a learning
experience
> for me to see myself out of my usual role and placed in the role of
> angry protagonist as I have been assigned here.
>
> What if we all exchanged roles on here? What if you and Meeseo
> assumed the "angry" roles instead? How would that feel for you?
> You have been going through a period of great confusion, depression,
> alienation, in your personal journey. What part has repressed and
> denied anger had in creating that inner state for you?
>
> The anger is the shadow for the all-loving and accepting, isn't it?
> When one is endeavouring to be on a loving and spiritual path,
> it is shocking and distressing to find that one has unloving and
> angry impulses.  That doesn't mean, of course, that one is all
> "bad", and it doesn't mean one has to act out those impulses
> or channel them destructively, but it does mean that it might
> be important not to be too judgmental of others, or too
> self-righteous. The whole point of scapegoating is to declare
> that certain ones are the "bad ones".The bad ones are
> represented by a goat, and the goat is thrust out of the
> village, sent away - and with the goat go all of the sins
> of the village. Supposedly.
>
> Why am I still here, Meeseo? I am not sure. Sometimes
> I think I'm slumming among a bunch of unenlightened,
> really nasty and holier-than-thou people. That's on a bad
> day. On a good day I see their qualities. I am not sure
> that anything can come of this process, because there is
> no moderator, no leader of the group to bring us back in
> focus when things are out of control. There is no one to
> say "time's up!", or to give us a break. What it amounts to
> is that what each of us gets out of this is whatever one is
> able to process on one's own. Maybe it won't feel like an
> elegant experience, nor one which feels intellectually
> brilliant, nor one to be elegized by the poets, nor one
> obviously touched by angels - but maybe there is
> something to be learned among such a strange
> little group of people. Is it a positive way to learn
> anything? Not my favourite way - but maybe that tells
> me something in itself.
>
> Julienne
>
> _______________________________________________________________
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:14:29 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Beyond hissing
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At 06:20 PM 6/7/98 +0300, Anita wrote:
>Hello HooN, John, Julienne and all,

> I  continued  to read  e-mails. There were many  angry and accusing words
>from you , Julienne.  You  wrote  once again, how  bad  your   brothers were
>when, your  father was dying,   and  how bad the  world  is,  to say nothing
>of this list -   a   snake's nest, as you once compared.   It suddenly
>occurred to me  that you  might be  very depressive, because  you see so
>much  bad   and negative here and there , and everywhere.

This is the way a community controls those they wish
to hurt. It becomes the issue of the victim rather than the
perpetrator. You focus, Anita, on my reaction or retelling
of events, rather than the events. This is like yelling at
the dog who yelps when kicked, accusing the rape
victim of having "asked" for it, accusing the battered
wife of having "provoked" her husband, and telling them
all to "just get over it". Instead why isn't the focus the
culture which perpetrates these acts?

You suggest I might be depressed because
I point out these events - but what must the people
be who do these things? We can focus forever on
the victims, and send them for counseling, put them
on medications to help them deal with what has
happened to them, but as long as we put our focus
on them these events will continue and we'll simply
be drugging larger and larger numbers of our
population. The focus needs to go back on to those
who are abusive, and on preventing the aggressive
and hurtful acts which destabilize the lives of those
whose lives are touched by the hostility in the first place.
I find this list - not all on it, but many, very supportive
of aggression and anger - calling it "honest", etc.,
and much less concerned with looking at what
their anger and aggression is all about.

Am I "very depressive"? Well, I am, as you
seem to want to ignore and want me to shut
up about, as does most of society as I have
learned through the Hospice Grief Groups I
have attended over the past two years, grieving.
Grieving is a natural and healthy reaction to
deep loss. However, rather than evoking support
from others, it arouses feelings of vulnerability,
and so some, such as JoAnne, want to make
the grieving person invisible in case s/he infects
the rest of society. Of course this probably extends
and prolongs the grieving process, and so is
quite counterproductive. Further, because the grief
is often not dealt with, and the grieving person
ignored, the grief is driven inward and can lead to
illness and even death. This is why so many
people often die very soon after the death of a
close loved one, such as a husband or wife.
But many also develop serious and life-threatening
illnesses.

There are also phases of grief which are described
by such as Elizabeth Kubler-Ross in her writings.
I have a feeling that I am in the anger phase now -
because I must admit I don't feel like my usual self.
I feel like hissing, I feel like kicking, I feel like telling
everyone around me to go to hell. This is not my
usual self at all! - and my friends are getting a bit of
a kick out of it. But I'm not - I don't like feeling this way.

But I didn't like the terrible grief either - there were
weeks when I didn't think I'd ever be able to function
properly again and that I would just like to isolate
myself for the rest of my life. I think it was when I
started to come out of that that I wrote to the group
that I was feeling better.

Well - surprise. Now my subconscious is socking
me with this anger. And I just want to say "Fuck you!"
to any so-called malevolent god who thinks it's okay
to let people die, and to people on this list who think
it's okay to dump their shit on me and then say,
"Oh Dear - that's not nice of you to be angry with us
for ignoring your grief and letting JoAnne attack you
and - whatever".  So, yes - I'm mad at you and any
gods and whoever else gets in my way right now.

And I am really not interested in your condescending
analyses of me, and your judgmental diagnoses, and
your self-congratulatory interchanges. Maybe it makes
you feel better, and further supports your theory that this
is all me and not you.

I just called a friend, and said, "Guess what? I think I'm
in the anger phase of grief!" - and we laughed our heads
off as I told my tales of how I feel for the moment like
telling everyone off and generally wrecking the whole
universe and creating havoc in my wake. I feel like
Ereshkigal or any Goddess who knows the seriousness
of life and won't stand for anything less than full integrity.

It's a damn good thing that I have a sense of humour and
can stand outside myself and see these processes at
work within me at the same time as I am experiencing them -
or I might be out in the countryside setting fire to haystacks
right now.

This reminds me a bit of the phase of childbirth where
the mother becomes totally irritated by everything  and
anything. I remember I couldn't STAND! the sound of the
pencil on paper as my evil (as I saw him at that moment)
husband was recording the times between contractions.

Now - to approach your question from another angle.
I think it's very dangerous and unhelpful to classify another
person "depressed" or with any other label. There are
serious medically depressive states which people
fight life-long, and even those I am quite convinced we
will find better ways to handle than we do now. Medication
can be mere masking, even though it can reduce states
of anxiety, depression, or whatever, so that a person can
at least function within society and access a broader
spectrum of emotion than before. I have worked with
people going through many emotional and life crises
for 35 years, and I have also worked side-by-side with
psychiatrists and psychologists handling patients/clients.
I am firmly convinced that community and family/friend
support are crucial to the psychophysiological health
of all of us, and yet that is what we least offer to the
person in need. We want quick fixes which don't call
on our participation or responsibility or involvement.
The magic pill is what we offer, and the diagnosis to
prescribe the pill, and then we leave the person to fend
for him/herself. What a whacky world.

Robert has been attempting a different approach - a
journey inward to uncover/dis-cover what he needs to

know. I applaud. Ultimately I feel this is the only way
to go. Unfortunately there are those who see this as
evidence of illness, of weakness, of self-indulgence.
But if we don't "indulge" ourselves, we won't indulge
others either. We live in a world which chiefly admires
toughing it out - a largely ignorant, angry, self-defeating
approach which is lacking in empathy and wisdom.

And Anita, no - I have never been diagnosed depressed,
nor have I ever been medicated for any psychological
states. In fact, one time when I went for counseling for
a while, my psychiatrist asked me what diagnosis I
would like him to use for the insurance as I didn't
have any of the mental illnesses on his sheet. As
he put it, I was there for guidance through a crisis -
something medical insurance companies don't want
to recognize or pay for. My going may have prevented
an "illness" from developing, but we're not into
preventive medicine or counseling, only crisis
intervention when the person's body or spirit is
already damaged.

So...back to my RL. Apparently I am in my Vesuvial
stage - and I apologize in advance if my rage persona
goes a little bonkers - but better that (from my point of
view - you're all on your own till I calm down :)) than
burning down those haystacks.

My cat just had a beautiful new little litter of kittens - and
so I am going to go play with them for a while to stir up some
happy little pheronomes within me, and then I'll do some
counseling and go to a movie with friends.

I  recalled, that
>Liz  Greene - you  may  know her, Julienne -  has  written something about
>the entanglement of  anger  and depression. I  took a book  Dynamics of the
>Unconscious and read, that  "  depression is  anger's near cousin" . And
>"under depression lurks anger", and vice versa, as I think.

Yes...this is pretty basic psychology, and I deal with it daily in my own
life
and the lives of my clients. These ideas are not new to Liz. Depression is
connected to Saturn, Neptune, and Pluto - and anger to Mars and Pluto.
But ultimately, all is connected.

>  Greene  tells
>a Vedic story about  a snake  who  is terrifying a village.   I have  always
>liked this story very much, so I  quote  it from Greene :
>" The snake  is biting and killing people. A sage comes to town preaching
>his philosophy of love  and spiritual understanding. The snake happens to
>hear one of  the sage's lectures  and is so moved that it decides to put the
>sage's teaching into practice. The snake has a kind of breakthrough, and
>overnight, vows not to bite people or be nasty anymore. For the next month
>or so, the transformed snake has  the manners of a saint.  Meanwhile, the
>sage has moved on to another village. Eventually, the sage comes back to the
>snake's town. He meets the snake again, but  the once mighty snake is now a
>mess-downtrodden, beaten, kicked around  and  taken  advantage of.  The
>snake  comes up to the sage and says: I want my money  back, I tried your
>philosophy of love and spiritual  understanding and see where it got me. I'm
>supposed to be enlighten now, but look at me. I'm  half dead." The sage
>succinctly replies, "I never told you not to hiss."


Anyone shown the snake story to JoAnne and a few of the rest of you?

>Honestly yours
>Anita

Good for you - it's about time the truth were told around here by more people.

And now, as my Darling Leonard Cohen would say, I'm off to practise on
my sainthood. It's gotten a little battered recently.

Love,

Julienne

Meeseo...don't be scared...I'm fine and not nearly as scary as
I'm playing at the moment. I truly won't burn down your haystacks. :)
x0x0x0x0

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:12:09 -0700
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Anita's Ping-Pong: Games and Conflict Resolution
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Friends:

I have a thread drawn from Psyber-L I keep which I call "Anita's
Ping-Pong": it consists in part of some of JoAnne and Julienne's posts from
around the 29th of May regarding "a free trip around the world", Julienne's
remarkable suggestion:

> Anita - I don't know. Play ping pong? Or I guess it's called table
> tennis nowadays.

Anita's remark:

> no else but the shadow could chase a person round the world.

Hoon's perceptive comment:

> Julienne and JoAnne are both here and both, in different ways,
> are dedicated to learning and self-awareness. Should they
> instantly perfect their harmonization for our sake? Allah has not
> willed it so, and His Reasons are better than ours!

and -- drawn from the same post -- his:

> Charles? I miss Charles, and I miss you two, Anita and Dolores.

And here there's a bit of a lacuna, until Meeseo writes that he knows:

>  Charles's gentleness,

Julienne speaks of

> Those who like to write poetry and communicate in gentler ways

And Hoon posts today about musical metaphors.

*

Several things going on here, as far as I'm concerned.

There's a suggestion that an antagonistic shadow situation which may have
its tap roots, as someone suggested, elsewhere but which crystallizes
around two persons in what I'm gonna go right ahead and term "a symmetry of
name calling" *might* -- just *might* -- be susceptible to some form of
resolution via a game.

I don't think ping-pong is the game in question, it is altogether too
binary: but I suspect that a ternary logic game such as "scissors paper
stone" might do the trick, if we could find a *tertium comparationis*
between the two positions in other words.  Please note that to my way of
thinking there are "symmetry of name calling" situations in which one party
has it right and the other wrong, pretty much completely, but that
situations where both parties have it about equally right (in viewing
themselves) and equally wrong (in misinterpreting and more basically
misvaluing the other) are far more common.

And one of the things I've learned being with my wife is that it is
characteristic of such situations that a common value (in our case,
"freedom") has been achieved, as we individually see it, by means of
opposite techniques (in our case, "spontaneity" vs "discipline" in ways
which also map neatly onto "honesty" vs "politeness").  When we discovered
that the "freedom" one of us had achieved at a crucial life-or-death
soul-moment in our lives was obtained by breaking free of the constraints
of politeness -- forcefully, spontaneously and with at times brutal honesty
-- while the other had escaped a no less life-and-death soul-moment and
found "freedom" by a no less rigorous adherence to forms of politeness and
discipline, we could each "see" (as if our own) the other's motivation for
an otherwise inexplicably opposed (and in fact probably despised) set of
values...

This sort of thing can be mapped: it has a distinctive structure, and it's
my sense that if two such parties were willing to strain every muscle to
"pour" their intense antagonism into a suitably framed structural device,
the device itself could "reveal" the common ground (that old *tertium
comparationis* again) in such a way as to break the log-jam and usher in a
new possibility of insightful communication.  Among other things, my
HipBone Games are designed to do just that.

Then there's the issue of "gentleness".  I am both pleased and disturbed
that Meeseo finds me to be gentle: pleased, because the guiding wish of my
life is to be a servant rather than a master, and I don't much like my own
anger and its effects, and disturbed because the anger is there, and at
least some of it is important to the fulfilment of that wish -- which we
might call "the mastery of servanthood".  And I'm thinking here also of the
name "Magister Knecht" -- the title and name of the hero of Hesse's book
about the Glass Bead Game -- a name which translates from the latin and
german respectively: "Master Servant".

As some of you already know, my HipBone Games are an attempt to create
playable forms of the Game of which Joseph Knecht is the acknowledged
Master.

And then there's poetry.

Now it is my contention that poetry -- real poetry -- is far from gentle.
I believe, indeed, that poetry is just the kind of game which provides for
its players a "structure" into which antagonisms can be poured, and in
which -- as paradoxes, as koans -- they can be resolved.

The attempt at poetry, in my own formulation, is liable to arrive at
prettiness if it attempts beauty -- while it will achieve beauty only when
it attempts truth.

Putting that in terms of gentleness and ruthlessness, honesty and
politeness, I hold that poetry which promotes gentleness / politeness is
liable to be merely pretty, but that the great poets and achieve beauty in
their greatest works by ruthlessness and honesty -- which they *tame* to
gentleness through the structure and discipline of their work.

*

All of which brings me to Hoon's marvelous post today, and his
parenthetical remarks therein about music:

::  (

::  Musical metaphors are appropriate. I happen to like very very
::  intense music. There is a particular form which is appealing to
::  me: organized at the beginning->moving into a crescendo of
::  intensity->resolved into a higher organization than at the
::  beginning (may have) implied. There are moments in Richard
::  Strauss and Mahler which apply, and even more, for me, are the
::  examples of large ensemble work by jazz-oriented composers
::  such as Anthony Braxton and Cecil Taylor, (Coltrane comes to
::  mind also,) but the paragon would be the modern composers,
::  prime examples wopuld be Lutoslawski and Messiaen, who take
::  different tacts in moving their large scale pieces into resolutions
::  which make explicit higher levels of harmony and order and
::  process in the form of a gyre.

::  Another example: there are various trance musics. The
::  introduction of changes in the pattern of the music may be so
::  subtle, 'small', that to many persons the pattern of the music just
::  repeats itself. To others listening receptively, (and listening in a
::  manner somewhat outside the perceptual filtering which causes
::  one to miss the small alterations,) the music starts to become
::  much more incrementally intense, but its resolution in a higher
::  harmony will then be unmistakeable, even to the point of
::  reordering the listener. Ooooh! Intention of the listener is the
::  determining factor: if the intention is not clear at the beginning,
::  the listener may be let in but not let out via the resolution;
::  (somewhat of a challenge for the practitioner!)

::  )

Bingo!  Glass Bead Game!

Intensity!  Resolution in a higher harmony!

*

A friend who is in the business of "conflict resolution" -- and whose work
takes him to places such as Nicaragua, Cambodia, and Israel -- once wrote
about my games (reposted with permission):

::  I've only been with this game a short time and have played a
::  limited number of rounds. I took the idea to many of my groups
::  that I lead in communication skills. I've even played it with
::  children. The value I see in it, is not just the creative, art form, or
::  the competitive fun and intrigue of making connections with all
::  manner of ideas, but rather the insight we can reach that bridges
::  the gaps in our differences.

::  I'm mostly interested in this form as a healing. Bridging people
::  of diverse backgrounds and ideas. Particularly in conflict, where
::  it appears to be unresolvable.

::  What if Israelis and Palestinians were to place their positions at
::  opposite sides of the board and work their way across, making
::  connections, looking for the common ground, literally, in this
::  dispute, the commonality of visions?  It is through vision, the
::  values or interests, that most conflicts are resolved.

::  It is through the context or meaning in those visions or values
::  that we sometimes can bridge the differences, overriding the
::  resentments and hatred.

Comments?

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 01:47:54 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: dialogue of intentions
In-Reply-To:  <v04011700b1a078e94e77@[207.54.160.201]>
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HooN,

No time to properly absorb or process all this at the moment, just a couple
or so things I wanted to respond to now.


>Simon, all,
>
>Hope you don't mind picking this up after a week.

This is fine as far as I'm concerned. As I hear it, each part has its own
rhythm in the list's multi-layered counterpoint of threads and
threads-weaving-across-threads!


>You left off (imagining
>you're kind of like an "idea postman") some good packages.

Ugh! I guess you mean this as a compliment, HooN, but I find the notion of
"idea postman" a bit dismissive and distancing. Argh! What can this mean??


>It is a very good question to inquire what moves one from justification
>into questioning. I think we observe here in Psyber-L that it is not
>movement purchased most easily through the questioning of other person's
>justification(s).
>
>*Justification* may become a very habituated scheme. Again, it doesn't seem
>to do the drama much good to have the chorus shouting "Question!" over and
>over again, or to shout specific questions.

I agree with what you're saying here. This seems a crucial issue, how to
get beyond the 'stuckness'. To me it seems necessary that a facilitating
environment is created, one that doesn't collapse the possibility of
someone 'opening out' from justification to questioning (or from whatever
to whatever).

You say "it is not movement purchased most easily through the questioning
of other person's justification(s)", but what to do when the
justification-behaviour of  the other person or other people entails
exactly that collapsing-of-possibility that needs to be overcome??

What if you feel boxed in, want to get out, don't know how to get out on
other people's terms - but can't get out by yourself? Sheesh! A conundrum,
think you (k)not?


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:54:54 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Harvard & London
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All,

Back from overseas, good to be back.  Plane was delayed and so
spent an extra two nights in hotels on the way.  I have many
posts in Psyber-L to catch up on.  Plus the voice mail and
clients to see.

Reporting back on the conference as I went was a bit of a dream,
I was too involved!  Also phone connections were difficult and in
London I abandoned the process.  I have however written some
posts that i could not send, but are now 53 posts behind!  I
might wait a day or two and make them current.  We are not really
asynchronous after all.  There is a definite "moment" here which
like all moments can be lost.

Seeing Josh in London was very good.  An experience worth having.
Many trips in the tube and a walk on Hampstead Heath, a visit to
Marx's grave, a bike ride in the countryside at new Forest.  Many
hours of real life chat -- good to do.


Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 19:10:57 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Anita's Ping-Pong: Games and Conflict Resolution
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Charles,

Are you proposing a glass bead game?  How would you propose it get
structured?  Three players?  Two players?  I am reminded of the game
between you and HooN back in March of 1996, my introduction to the the
Glass Bead Game.

> I don't think ping-pong is the game in question, it is altogether too
> binary: but I suspect that a ternary logic game such as "scissors paper
> stone" might do the trick, if we could find a *tertium comparationis*
> between the two positions in other words.

I like this idea.  I hope that your suggestion captures the interest of
this list and of the primary players of the "game"

> Now it is my contention that poetry -- real poetry -- is far from gentle.

Just curious, Charles.  Do you see my poetry as "pretty", "gentle"?

> The attempt at poetry, in my own formulation, is liable to arrive at
> prettiness if it attempts beauty -- while it will achieve beauty only when
> it attempts truth.

I fully agree with this.  But who decides what is pretty and what is
beautiful?  I've been noticing that most of us don't seem to have the
same notion of beauty let alone truth ... tough to define as one finds
it impossible to stand outside of subjectivity in order to be objective.

Thank you for the words of your friend and your weaving the fragments
here into a tapestry.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:18:36 -0700
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: dialogue of intentions
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Simon,

>Ugh! I guess you mean this as a compliment, HooN, but I find the notion of
>"idea postman" a bit dismissive and distancing. Argh! What can this mean??

It wasn't my intention to dismiss or distance, but such an overly silly
metaphor...I echo your argh.

Excuse me. I was at a loss for words this a.m. and I created this trite
metaphor, which was intended to be a complement, but, if one risks a
metaphor for the sake of complementing a person and it isn't obviously
meaningful in the way intended, then the metaphor shouldn't have been
risked. My metaphor squished my intention; imagine such a thing happening
here?!

***

It's actually, looked at fruitfully, an interesting experience you must
have had, reading it.

Intention leads to metaphor, depending on where one stands with regard to
some of the conundrums of linguistics, rhetoric, cognition, etc.

***

As a naive 'folk psychologist', I observe attempts by one person (or myself
for that matter,) to make someone else believe what they believe.

To sort out some sense of intention, interpret it so-to-speak, doesn't
solve all the issues about how a person chooses consciously and
unconsciously how to use language. Sometimes we're left with stuff no less
meaningfull even as it may have struck us as ugly, silly, ill-formed,
(dismissive and distancing too.)

There's also the impact of getting someone else's intention wrong.
Basically, our interpretation of another's intention better map fairly
closely, right?

Look at how words may seem to have a certain temperature; the same word
used in different circumstances, may be red hot in one, blue chilled in
another.

***

(Anybody for a little 'close reading'?)

Email ping pong is a world of metaphor, 'metaphoring', and the richness of
how many 'different ways the functions can collapse'!

(Hey wait: how might an artifically intelligent computer convey an accurate
intention using figurative language?)

:-)

***

(Warning, I'm about to illustrate a general point with a specific example;
this has nothing to personally do with the persons who wrote these words.)

Take this exchange, and take it aside from its context:

>I'm
>>supposed to be enlighten now, but look at me. I'm  half dead." The sage
>>succinctly replies, "I never told you not to hiss."
>
>So I'm hissing.

wunderbar! It's a damn poem, it's so rich in word, sound, image, and also
there's an incredible dynamicism. I'm can't locate the exact intention
because of the wonderful hissing metaphor; it is just sizzling...still,
hours later.

Simon, the question is, as you say it is: "What can this mean?" Always,
that is the question as hearts grope to say...

(only people can come up with this stuff).

***

psybereally yours,

HooN

***

i'm supposed to be
                enlightened
                now
but look at
                                me.
I'm     half    dead.

The sage
        succinctly replies,
"I never told you
                not to          hiss.

        !So,
                        I'm
                                        hissing.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:16:19 +0300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Beyond hissing
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne,

I regret having  offended to you. I didn't guess, that  "depression" and
"depressive" are so  precarious words in  the American culture. I  mostly
don't know   the connotations of the English words
You wrote:
>And I am really not interested in your condescending
>analyses of me, and your judgmental diagnoses, and
>your self-congratulatory interchanges. Maybe it makes
>you feel better, and further supports your theory that this
>is all me and not you.

You are right. This all is about me.   All of you writings  remind me  of
that time , when  I  was  in  a depressive   state. I associate it with my
father's death.  I lived in  depression  the  whole of the  1970s, ten long
years.  I couldn't write any more,  words didn't come  to me on their own.
When I sat down  at my  typewriter, I felt myself freeze  over with fear,
and  I couldn't get anything on the paper. I, too, saw that the world is
full of   evilness and  injustice. So I became  an  eager  do-gooder.  But
the  world  didn't get  better,  only me  got more and  more  tired,  things
lost their meaning, and the words - always  hollow.  One day  I got  an
idea: I called up a psychotherapist.   Over four years I met her  twice   a
week.  Gradually  I  began to feel little  better, gradually  the   words
came back.  Gradually they were  no more hollow, and without meaning.  Now I
think , that those dark  lost years   were very  valuable  in some inner way.

Btw.  I  would like to recommend  Charles' game   instead of the ping-pong.
It is the most interesting game I have  ever played. There is no  winners,
no losers,  all players are winners in some or other way.

best regards
Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:16:22 +0300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: on language ( re: was Hello)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Robert,
You were surprised, that I  saved your poem.  I use to save  some
Psyber-mails,  which interest  me for some reason.   The  imagery of your
poem  touched me -  those white hugging branches, and especially that one
which was broken.  I  saw   with my mind's eyes  a frozen birch..  At that
time the  birch- motive was actual to me., because  I had seen a dream of a
burning birch.

With warm regards
Anita


>"White hugging branches which bend
>Thin yet bearing the weight gracefully
>A tension that becomes art
>Supple in their flexibility
>Branches reach for their roots

>Yet, one branch has broken
>Rigid at its core, hardened,
>It was unable to suffer change
>Suffer tension ..."

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:40:01 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Some quick points..
In-Reply-To:  <199806081116.OAA17579@walrus.megabaud.fi>
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Dear all,

Void was the man I loved (see post on New Orleans, can't remember what it
was called) my boyfriend..none of you understood what was going on there, I
understood. He was not attacking you, he was attacking me, and to an extent
himself, he raged against the dying of a light inside that was already half
dead. When he stopped raging, against me, against what was happening on
here, as I knew he would,and tried to talk sensibly, the attacks still
continued and escalated into an infantile war where the testosterone flew
in abundant volumes.

I ask you this, who did more damage to the list, Void (And by the way that
was an old nick of his, as he said, nothing more, nothing less) or J & J,
who still continue to squabble tirelessly.

Marie, he did not pick on you intentionally, in fact he told me he thought
you were male (an interesting point, in reflection) It was nothing
personal. I felt like one of those wildlife photographers that sees
something cute dying in a pool of mud, and do you leave it to die cos that
is the natural course or do  you pull it out of the mud and intervene. I
chose to do nothing, though I did email one of the main protaganists and
asked him to back off. Void needed this place, but he saw as you did, what
he wanted to see, he learnt nothing, because he was as arrogant and
defencive in his continuance of the war as the others throwing the missiles
at the time. Look back, there were times he waved a white flag, but when he
did, it was shot at with bullets. He put down the flag and charged back
into war. Men!

L'essential est invisible pour les yeux. (The little prince - find it on
the web and read it, it is quite beautiful)and ask yourself what you see.
It was never more so was that true than with him. So invisible, he lost it
himself, he'll never see it, he'll never believe it even exists. Such a man
gave up a love, a unique. simple and beautiful love. I know it was that,
because it was mine. Enough of love, it bores me these days.

So when I see these conversations about Void, I can't help but feel that
you are embewing him with more than there really was, I did not interfere,
because he was his own person, I asked him to calm down somewhat, and he
did so, more arrows flew, he picked them up and hurled them back. You never
saw who he really was because he came in deliberatly stirring the pot as I
once did, as he reminded me, - I once did the same. I had no defence
against that arguement.

We are complacent, we do not like change, we do not like the invasion of
our happy home where we no which chair to sit in and what time dinner will
be served. This is wrong, for the air grows stale, there is beauty in this
world, but there is great ugliness too. You cannot shut the doors to one
without losing the balance or contrast with the other Good v evil, light v
dark, ugliness & beauty, happiness, v sorrow. I am more beautiful for the
ugly side of me, I am more good for the evil side, I am happier because I
have known sorrow. They nurture each other, feed from each other. In my
mother in laws world, evil does not exist she has closed her mind by
drawing religion like a curtain across anything she does not wish to see.
Hers is a comfortable world of arm chairs and Sunday religion, and
everything nicey nicey, cream teas and the knowledge that she is going to
heaven. Nothing intrudes or penetrates the veil. She lives her life in
contented religious apathy, ignoring the evils of the world.
I do not fear evil, I fear the evil that men do. I do not fear
confrontation, it brings a wind of change with it. I do not want to rest in
a place full of contentment peace and harmony because I learn then how to
handle the flip side of situations when they arise. In the great J & J and
Wilbur saga, the list fell to pieces, nobody took charge, every body stood
back, throwing up their hands in horror, or ineffectualy protesting that
this wasn't nice. The list could not handle what was happening, it
fragmented. That needen't have happened. We weren't equipped for the
dropping in our area, of something new and hithertoo not dealt with.
Somebody should have said, shut the fuck up.
Nobody did, so a few of us left. I came back, Wilbur stayed away. I wish
he'd come back. Its not likely to happen though.

The glass bead game intriques me, because thinking about it, I can't see
the point of a game where there is no winner, even tic tac toe brings out
the worst in me. There has to be a winner or there is no point in my
playing. I can take defeat, but its the competition that enthralls me. Its
never a case for me that its not the winning but how you play the game. For
me its always both, and I'm not above cheating. The glass bead game is a
game of intellectual one upmanship, even if you protest it is not.

I apologise to you Marie, but it wasn't an attack on you, as I have already
said, and while I have no great desire to stand on the side of that
miserable lump of humanity known as Mark/void,  the list paints a picture
of him that is not entirely accurate at the moment, that is not in balance
with what really happened or who he really was.


Dolores

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:31:53 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      changing directions - changing perspectives
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all,

At the risk of just posting an attempt at poetry rather than real
poetry, I submit this.

Robert


New Life
^^^^^^^^

Woman with a man standing beside her
Both holding hands and waiting
Filling moments with words which =

Have no meaning within themselves
Having meaning just for their sound
While they wait

A tightening and the hands react in =

Hightened anticipation, in a bit of fear
Practiced ritual breathing takes both
Through the tension of the moment
And then a release of the tightness
Again the waiting

Pain rises and falls in rhythmic patterns
The intensity banishes reason and all
That is wanted is release, retreat to a
Time when there was no birthing pain
Anger and blame, yet still clinging to
Still waiting

A cry, a moan escapes despite resolution
Fear of this inner self, this stranger who
Threatens survival, who shakes to the core
Until all that is wanted is to slip into
A place of unconsciousness, into darkness
Waiting

Then the crowning, the light touches hair
That is like dark silken strands that have
Been drenched by a quick summer storm
Then with head emerged, a slow turning
Allowing the body to flow following the
Change of vision.

Robert Longpre =A9 98-06-06

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 15:31:07 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: dialogue of intentions
In-Reply-To:  <v04011702b1a12298f84e@[207.54.160.14]>
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>Simon,
>
>>Ugh! I guess you mean this as a compliment, HooN, but I find the notion of
>>"idea postman" a bit dismissive and distancing. Argh! What can this mean??
>
>It wasn't my intention to dismiss or distance, but such an overly silly
>metaphor...I echo your argh.
>
>Excuse me. I was at a loss for words this a.m. and I created this trite
>metaphor, which was intended to be a complement, but, if one risks a
>metaphor for the sake of complementing a person and it isn't obviously
>meaningful in the way intended, then the metaphor shouldn't have been
>risked. My metaphor squished my intention; imagine such a thing happening
>here?!

Hmmm, "my metaphor squished my intention". I love it! Gives me a chuckle
every time I think about it.

First we have hissing, now we have squishing... Ooooh! Such sibbilance
sends shivers shimmering down my spine... :)

I acknowledged your intention to compliment because it reached me, if a bit
battered and torn (that damn postal service!!!).

I just realised my last sentence can be read two ways: either your
intention or your compliment was a bit battered and torn! Perhaps both, eh?!

Sorry, I'm teasing you here, HooN. Slapped wrists time! (Mine, not yours!)


>It's actually, looked at fruitfully, an interesting experience you must
>have had, reading it.
>
>Intention leads to metaphor, depending on where one stands with regard to
>some of the conundrums of linguistics, rhetoric, cognition, etc.

Well, I love metaphors, both in themselves and as communication (or
miscommunication!) tools.


Yes, looked at fruitfully, an interesting experience. Rightly or wrongly, I
feel attached to what I write, as it comes out of a *feelingreasoning*
process that is mine and is part of the process of 'being here' for me. So
your metaphor nudged something in me about this not being acknowledged by
you. Maybe a childish
I-spend-a-lot-of-time-reading-and-thinking-feeling-writing-through-your-posts-an
d-you-trivialised-that impulse! Oh well, I'll admit to it! Not that I'm
mortally insulted or anything, but something went all unbalanced (in me,
probably!).


>To sort out some sense of intention, interpret it so-to-speak, doesn't
>solve all the issues about how a person chooses consciously and
>unconsciously how to use language. Sometimes we're left with stuff no less
>meaningfull even as it may have struck us as ugly, silly, ill-formed,
>(dismissive and distancing too.)

Agreed. I value both (conscious/unconscious, intended/'unintended').


>There's also the impact of getting someone else's intention wrong.
>Basically, our interpretation of another's intention better map fairly
>closely, right?

Well, *if* it doesn't, best to go through a process of remapping that
doesn't leave anyone lost and stranded!


>Look at how words may seem to have a certain temperature; the same word
>used in different circumstances, may be red hot in one, blue chilled in
>another.
>
>***

"blue chilled", eh? go easy on the frosty look, but I'll have mine mixed
with ice and a twist of tangy lemon...


>(Anybody for a little 'close reading'?)
>
>Email ping pong is a world of metaphor, 'metaphoring', and the richness of
>how many 'different ways the functions can collapse'!

I'd hope the functions can expand, too.


>(Warning, I'm about to illustrate a general point with a specific example;
>this has nothing to personally do with the persons who wrote these words.)
>
>Take this exchange, and take it aside from its context:
>
>>I'm
>>>supposed to be enlighten now, but look at me. I'm  half dead." The sage
>>>succinctly replies, "I never told you not to hiss."
>>
>>So I'm hissing.
>
>wunderbar! It's a damn poem, it's so rich in word, sound, image, and also
>there's an incredible dynamicism. I'm can't locate the exact intention
>because of the wonderful hissing metaphor; it is just sizzling...still,
>hours later.

an affirmation of hissingness??

there is a zen-ish quality to it

half dead != half alive (one is on the way out, the other on the way in)

there's the moment of flipping from one state to the other


>Simon, the question is, as you say it is: "What can this mean?" Always,
>that is the question as hearts grope to say...

the meaning is in the groping/hoping, the meanings arise through the
groping/hoping...

>(only people can come up with this stuff).

I hope so!

this reminds me about an interesting post elselist on language translation,
storytelling, and 'what is not'. perhaps I should forward it here.


Simon

>***
>
>psybereally yours,
>
>HooN
>
>***
>
>i'm supposed to be
>                enlightened
>                now
>but look at
>                                me.
>I'm     half    dead.
>
>The sage
>        succinctly replies,
>"I never told you
>                not to          hiss.
>
>        !So,
>                        I'm
>                                        hissing.
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:48:42 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Beyond hissing
In-Reply-To:  <199806081116.OAA17579@walrus.megabaud.fi>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi Anita,

At 02:16 PM 6/8/98 +0300, you wrote:
>Julienne,

>I regret having  offended to you. I didn't guess, that  "depression" and
>"depressive" are so  precarious words in  the American culture. I  mostly
>don't know   the connotations of the English words
>You wrote:
>>And I am really not interested in your condescending
>>analyses of me, and your judgmental diagnoses, and
>>your self-congratulatory interchanges. Maybe it makes
>>you feel better, and further supports your theory that this
>>is all me and not you.
>
>You are right. This all is about me.   All of you writings  remind me  of
>that time , when  I  was  in  a depressive   state. I associate it with my
>father's death.  I lived in  depression  the  whole of the  1970s, ten long
>years.  I couldn't write any more,  words didn't come  to me on their own.
>When I sat down  at my  typewriter, I felt myself freeze  over with fear,
>and  I couldn't get anything on the paper. I, too, saw that the world is
>full of   evilness and  injustice. So I became  an  eager  do-gooder.  But
>the  world  didn't get  better,  only me  got more and  more  tired,  things
>lost their meaning, and the words - always  hollow.  One day  I got  an
>idea: I called up a psychotherapist.   Over four years I met her  twice   a
>week.  Gradually  I  began to feel little  better, gradually  the   words
>came back.  Gradually they were  no more hollow, and without meaning.  Now I
>think , that those dark  lost years   were very  valuable  in some inner way.

Anita, I really appreciate the softness of this reply. I feel quite
battered often on this list, as though whatever I say is interpreted

by some in the worst possible light, and without humour or
sensitivity. However, I feel you are really trying to understand,
and I thank you for that.

What happened to you, it seems to me, is that your grief
over your father's death did indeed turn into a prolonged
period of depression, which is what can happen when
there is no help with one's grief. As I am a counselor
myself, and have been for over 36 years, I saw early on,
when the horrors began over my mother's death, that I
didn't know how on earth I was ging to get through what
was coming without falling apart. So I began, in the
summer of 1996, going to the weekly meetings of what
I call "grief groups" at Hospice. Hospice, in ths country,
is an organization which steps in when someone has
been diagnosed as having only 6 months or less to live.
Both my parents were put on Hospice that summer.
Hospice had a group for "caregivers" - those who take
care of someone who is dying. I went to that group every
week. It was very important for me, because I was with
others who were going through what I was going through -
even some similar family horrors, which I found out were
not that rare. I also learned that it is often the one the
family considers to be the strongest who becomes the
one all the anger is dumped on. Knowing that helped.
When things in my family escalated, and my brothers
started to be abusive and I wasn't allowed to see my
mother the last 4 months of her life, I also went for
individual counseling. Being a counselor myself, I
knew that would be my advice to anyone else, and so

I gave myself my own advice. :) While my father was
dying, I couldn't leave the house to go to the caregiver's
meeting because I couldn't leave him alone. Nor, after
my mother died, could I go to the Hospice Group for
those who have lost a loved one. But after my father died,
in the first few months of this year, I did go to that group
as well. I also have friends who are psychistrists,
astrologers. psychologists, etc., who have known me
for twenty or thirty years. All these resources have
helped me immensely, and I am sure these are why
I am not just stuck where I was a few months ago, crying
with grief for my parents every day - and several times a
day whenever I ran into a reminder.

I wish you had been able to have these, as they might have
abbreviated the time you spent in prolonged grief.

I am not a naturally depressive person, Anita. I do see the
dark side of life - how can one have a heart and brain and
any empathy for others and not see? -and I have spent most
of my life doing what I can to educate and write and counsel
to try to do my bit to change that. But I am also a deeply
joyful person - and I love animals, and nature, and music
(really wanted to give Hoon a high sign for his understanding
of music yesterday :), and my children - one of whom just
graduated from college in Neuroscience and has just come
to live with me again for at least a while while he plans the
next phase of his life. I also have very deep feelings and
attachments, and so the death of my parents wrenched
me apart. And it sounds as though the same thing
happened to you.

Perhaps JoAnne is right that I should just go away and not
bother people until I am "healthy" again. But I don't think so.
I don't think I should be banished any more than anyone
else should. We all need to become comfortable with people
going through these natural and inevitable phases of life,
and instead of considering them unhealthy, realize that it
is our reactions which might be unhealthy, and our
rejection of people going through deaths, divorces, loss
of children, which leads to the exacerbation of their stress
and prolongation of their healing.

But I am beyond any non-functioningness. I am writing. I
wrote a poem during the worst part of all this which I shared
with this list - though no one said anything. Maybe they didn't
like it. But I am writing now - and writing funny stuff even. I
lectured at a conference in New York this last week. So the
paralysis phase of all this is over. I'm also taking care of my
animals and gardening, etc. I'm not very good at housekeeping -
but then I never was. :)

>Btw.  I  would like to recommend  Charles' game   instead of the ping-pong.
>It is the most interesting game I have  ever played. There is no  winners,
>no losers,  all players are winners in some or other way.

I didn't see ping pong as a competition - just as a game to break the ice
between us. But I agree - Charles' game might be fun - and I'm willing. :)

Love,

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:19:16 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Beyond hissing
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980607122905.010c47c0@postoffice.att.net>
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On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:14:29 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>And I am really not interested in your condescending
>analyses of me, and your judgmental diagnoses, and
>your self-congratulatory interchanges. Maybe it makes
>you feel better, and further supports your theory that this
>is all me and not you.

Me too.

>Now - to approach your question from another angle.
>I think it's very dangerous and unhelpful to classify another
>person "depressed" or with any other label.

Me too.

[Anita]
>>  Greene  tells
>>a Vedic story about  a snake  who  is terrifying a village.   ....
>
>
>Anyone shown the snake story to JoAnne and a few of the rest of you?

I read it long ago.  I've been a hisser for a long time.
Unfortunately, some people seem to think that means I'm biting them.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:19:16 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
In-Reply-To:  <v04011701b1a08d080bf8@[207.54.181.139]>
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On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 12:51:36 -0700, you, sc <hoon@APK.NET>, wrote:

>It would be easy to stop at the 2 value logic and deductive arguement and
>value truth only as far it represents a valid conclusion following from
>valid premises; (an arguement which cannot proceed to valid conclusions
>unless its premises are valid.)
>
>Unfortunately, the mind doesn't seem to work naturally that way, nor does
>the logical anatomy of most interpersonal discourse, when it is reduced to
>its constituent assertions and what those atomized assertions indicate,
>reveal the process of thought 'behind' the assertions. (Viewed this way, it
>might be hypothesized: the human cognitive predisposition naturally favors
>invalid premises. <g>)

Hmm.  Logic was grown in human minds.  Most "natural" reasoning
approximates it.  So I would have to disagree with what I think you're
saying, that logic is not a natural mind function.  The rest of what
you describe is not only not alien to me, it is quite comfortable,
interesting and very valuable.

To me, logic is just a statement of the way a good portion of the
world works.  Not the emotional side, of course.  But when it comes
down to where are the socks I set down last night, the question will
have a logical answer.

But then again, that's me, the Thinker type on the Myers-Briggs scale.
If you're not comfortable with that mode of decision, then you'll have
a very different idea of the value of logic.  We're not all alike.
What is true of your brain and its natural functioning and preferences
can be untrue of mine and vice versa.  I only ask that you respect my
difference from you and not insist that my reality be yours.  The
"ultimate reality" you perceive may not exist in my universe.

>(We note in the rarest of instances hyper-critical thinking which, in an
>agonizing-to-our-sloppier, beautiful cognition, is exactingly and formally
>consistent. But, there has to be extremely rigorous 'starting' conditions
>applied for this to happen. At the same time, an entirely logical arguement
>or discourse may eventuate but still not be correlated with similarly
>logical cognition. Great breakthroughs in mathematics, chemistry, physics,
>have often followed intuitions, even dreams, and only then been made into a
>consistent arguement.

I don't think logic and intuition are dissonant.  In fact, I feel that
logic is a very specialized instance of intuition, one that has been
borne out with time, because I believe that intuition is involuntary
and mysterious pattern-making in the brain.

>Most interpersonal relating is so far outside the cone of this kind of
>discourse, that to appeal to, or represent some sort of rigorous
>truthmaking as the principal reality of such interpersonal discourses is
>an, ironically, illogical reduction. Might we allow the following premise
>"interpersonal discourse is messy, complex" to be 'true'?)

Do you believe that most interpersonal relating has no logical
component whatsoever?  That there can be no facts?  When a man hits
another man there are no bruises, only he said/he said?  I find that
reduction just as poor as the reduction to only logical elements.

This is what bothers me about some arguments; they shift ground from
one component to the other without acknowledging that different tools
and rules (or non-rules) must apply.

I have mostly avoided actual emotional arguing here, in favor of what
many would probably call "nitpicking."  As in, I don't believe the
things that the other person is saying as truth and as support for
certain arguments, and feel I can show that the things are wrong.
Maybe it's irrelevant to 99 percent of the human race, but it's
relevant to me, and at least one other person I know of.

>Our thought processes may be reduced to a logical anatomy but the logical
>anatomy does not reveal how it is a 'mind' (ha, a brain!) cognitively
>generates discourse. The reduction leaves out most of what is interesting
>about the generation of discourse, of course. <g>

Of course we can't make any reductionist predictions about human
behavior.  The system is too complex.  Quantum mechanics shows us
that.

My logical arguments with people on interpersonal grounds usually
consist of pointing out flaws in their own logic, which they are
erroneously trying to apply to nonlogical parts of the argument.  E.g.
"you are angry because you had no emotional support during your
father's death."  Not only is it logically inconclusive, but the
premise of the argument is wrong.

>So it is, that an appeal to truth based on this reduction, is itself a
>limited truth; i.e. it isn't the whole, or 'wholistic' truth. Furthermore,
>the 'whole' truth probably does not follow from simple, true/false logics,
>and may encompass elements of other logics. Example: the logics of the
>reasoningdrama, that are subjective and represent our own 'rules' which are
>only validated by our individual propensity to be attached to them, to have
>our awareness and or behavior driven to some lesser or greater extent by
>these kinds of rules.

I use the rules where they apply.  Where they don't, I dislike their
being dragged in.  I guess that still begs the question of where the
rules apply and where they do not, and whose nonlogical rules we use,
but I'm not insisting we use the logical rules for everything.  As you
say here:

>Truth then: one view is it stands outside of all but the logic which
>justifies it 'best' (and the shell game wherein 'best' is further
>justified...), another view is truth organized around questioning in it's
>reasoningdrama gap; truth neither wholistic or closed off "into its own
>logic".

Semi-open truth?

>There is critical thinking that atomizes and finds value in the reduction
>to assertions and explication of their validity

Do you find value in that, or not?  I do.  Or do you prefer never to
know anything logical?  It's your choice, of course.  But it would
make balancing the checkbook a royal pain.

>and then there is critical
>thinking which stands humbled before the complexity and colliding logics of
>our discourse. In the latter case even two half truths cannot add up to the
>whole truth.

They will almost certainly not, because most half-truths are not just
half the truth; they contain lies, and when met with the truth, are
cancelled if one has no basis for deciding.

I have a nice picture in my mind of the above statement, black and
white and grey overlays and colors canceling each other or combining
into other colors.  And perhaps an underlying matrix of real colored
light shining through it to illuminate the true parts, and not
illuminate or even darken the false parts.

>Expert novices continually suspend what they know in order to discover what
>they don't know. When you think like a genius, you often work outside your
>expertise -looking beyond the knowledge you've acquired or the concepts
>you've created. You're continually walking to the edge of your expertise.
>When you think like a genius, you naturally makes waves. -Todd Siler

And grammatical errors?

I'm appending the word "smiling" to this because there are times we
can't recognize a joke, preferring to see something else, and I'd
rather make the joke and explain it than have to censor myself.

JoAnne

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Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:19:17 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Anita's Ping-Pong: Games and Conflict Resolution
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On Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:12:09 -0700, you, Charles Cameron
<hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>, wrote:

>All of which brings me to Hoon's marvelous post today, and his
>parenthetical remarks therein about music:

[I'm quoting from Charles' post because I don't have hoon's post here
to quote from]

>::  Musical metaphors are appropriate. I happen to like very very
>::  intense music. There is a particular form which is appealing to
>::  me: organized at the beginning->moving into a crescendo of
>::  intensity->resolved into a higher organization than at the
>::  beginning (may have) implied. There are moments in Richard
>::  Strauss and Mahler which apply, and even more, for me, are the
>::  examples of large ensemble work by jazz-oriented composers
>::  such as Anthony Braxton and Cecil Taylor, (Coltrane comes to
>::  mind also,) but the paragon would be the modern composers,
>::  prime examples wopuld be Lutoslawski and Messiaen, who take
>::  different tacts in moving their large scale pieces into resolutions
>::  which make explicit higher levels of harmony and order and
>::  process in the form of a gyre.
>
>::  Another example: there are various trance musics. The
>::  introduction of changes in the pattern of the music may be so
>::  subtle, 'small', that to many persons the pattern of the music just
>::  repeats itself. To others listening receptively, (and listening in a
>::  manner somewhat outside the perceptual filtering which causes
>::  one to miss the small alterations,) the music starts to become
>::  much more incrementally intense, but its resolution in a higher
>::  harmony will then be unmistakeable, even to the point of
>::  reordering the listener.

One kind of perceptual filtering that comes to my mind would actually
make the small alterations stand out -- if you dismiss the repeating
part as "given" you hear only the differences.  You need to do both,
in my long experience of trance music (starting with e.g. Brian Eno in
the 70's and whale songs), to get the most out of it.

And this all makes me think of Tibetan chanting with the unearthly
high harmonics eventually arpeggiating and dancing in the background.

>Ooooh! Intention of the listener is the
>::  determining factor: if the intention is not clear at the beginning,
>::  the listener may be let in but not let out via the resolution;
>::  (somewhat of a challenge for the practitioner!)
>
>::  )
>
>Bingo!  Glass Bead Game!

You suggest this?  I'll play if anyone else would like to.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:50:40 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Beyond hissing
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On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:48:42 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>Perhaps JoAnne is right that I should just go away and not
>bother people until I am "healthy" again.

I never said this.  Why do you keep saying things like this?  it's
exasperating.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:06:46 +0100
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Subject:      Looking
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Joanne wrote:
>>>Can this ever be sorted out?
>>
>>Perhaps the best thing is to not *try* to sort it out, as if 'it' is some
>>jigsaw puzzle that can be completed if only (between you) you can find all
>>the bits you need and then find where they need to go. Sometimes the only
>>way to find something is to not look for it, because when you look for it
>>you get more and more frustrated and tired as it continues to elude you,
>>and in concentrating your energies on 'the looking' you maybe increase the
>>likelihood of missing 'the looked for'. In the effort of looking, we can
>>overlook.
>
>Yet it's hard not to look.  And when do you look again?  And when it looks
>the same, what do you do then?

If I can't find something despite what seems like exhaustive (and
exhausting) hunting around, then maybe I need to go do something else, let
my subconscious do the hunting for me! Maybe read a book, watch TV, talk to
someone else, go out for a meal, whatever! Then maybe I'll suddenly know
where 'it' is, seemingly without trying and at the most unlikely moment! Or
I'll come back refreshed, able to see where I was blinded by tiredness
before. And if all else fails, maybe I've just got too much damn clutter
and I need to throw out some junk (always assuming I know what's junk and
what isn't - sometimes I need someone else to tell me, and then, when
they've told me, I realise that some of the junk is actually treasure, and
some of the treasure is junk!).


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:15:06 -0700
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From:         kate collie <kcollie@UNIXG.UBC.CA>
Subject:      Bye for now
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What a fascinating list! Hard to keep up with the daily volume of posts,
though. I haven't been able to read them carefully enough to respond yet.
I am going away for a month, so I am signing off for now. Best wishes to
all of you.

Kate Collie

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:23:24 GMT
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Found this on another list.  Looks familiar.

"Eating in Heaven & Hell"

One day a man was given the opportunity to see what Hell was like.

From a distance, he looked into Hell itself and saw a beautifully
and bountifully decorated table FILLED to overflowing with all
kinds of good things to eat. Yet the people that sat around the
table were emaciated and looked really terrible. They were all
very skinny and pale. Their faces were drawn and gaunt. They
were literally starving. All this magnificent food and they were
still starving?

The astonished man looked around for a reason for this. Then
he saw it. The only utensils that the people had to use were all
3 feet long. The people were starving because they couldn't get
any of that nourishing food into their mouths.  The man thought
to himself, Isn't this just like the devil to put marvelous and
abundant food in front of you and then give you 3 foot utensils
so you can't eat any of it?

Then the man was taken up to see what Heaven was like. He
excitedly looked forward to seeing that. When he got there, he
saw that there too was a lavishly decorated table filled to
overflowing with good things to eat. The people that sat around
this table however all looked VERY healthy and happy.   Not at
all like the people in Hell which of course was to be expected.

Upon closer inspection however he saw something that really
amazed him.  This table too was set with 3 foot utensils. He
wondered to himself,  Why are all the people in Hell so miserable
and starving and these people in heaven are so happy and full?
The people in Hell have everything the same as the people in
Heaven have.  His question was soon answered.

After the people at the table had offered up a prayer of
thanksgiving, they all picked up their 3 foot utensils and
began to feed each other.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:01:34 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: heaven and hell
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>Found this on another list.  Looks familiar.
>
>"Eating in Heaven & Hell"
>
>One day a man was given the opportunity to see what Hell was like.
>

<snip>

>After the people at the table had offered up a prayer of
>thanksgiving, they all picked up their 3 foot utensils and
>began to feed each other.


Thanks for the story, JoAnne.

Of course, only in Heaven would everyone feed one another the food they
wanted, only in Heaven would no-one indulge in food fights instead, and
only in Heaven would none of the food be infected with BSE, salmonella or
any other nasties.

Also: only in Heaven would everyone be able to swallow.


Simon

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Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:34:27 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Back Sheryl
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Wrote this about one week ago:


Welcome back Sheryl,

Have you been away for about  year?  I have taken to Welcoming
people as they arrive ... it does not allow for a quiet move into
the back as it were.

I recall your dream as you left and drove on in the car ... I
wonder what has bought you back?  I hope you find it a good place
to be.

I am in London with visiting my son and have just downloaded mail
in the first time for a few days.  Looking forward to reading the
latest installments here.



Walter




Sun, 31 May 1998 12:35:12

Sheryl Garner  <pumpknsoul@AOL.COM> has  just subscribed to  the
PSYBER-L  list (Psybernet Mailing List).

__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:35:58 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Experiential learning.
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Wrote this about one week ago, then unable to send,



Judith,

In:  Re: Experiential learning.  Sat, 30 May 1998 you wrote:

> .how is deriving our knowing from experience
> different than participant observers...I suspect a use of terms here that
> are different than how I use them..

Perhaps.  I think of participant observer as someone who comes
into a setting primarily to study it.  Even if they were already
there, a participant observer goes away and writes an analysis
for their "project".  They see themselves as having a unique role
in the place.

Sharing  learning as we go, we create an inner knowing.  It is
surprising how much we know about this psychological work as a
result of our being here ... I also think that we know in a way
that we can use.

I would like to know how others have used knowing from this
psyber-L as  they run other lists.  How the knowing from here
compares other types of research.

Being in Psyber-L with these  learning goals is different to
being in one that is simply to do psychological explorations.  I
suspect that some of the difficulties in Psyber-L arise because
the ethos is not clear to everyone.  The ethos here is complex.
It is too easy to just delete a description file or a welcome
file, and why not?  They are nearly all the same.  I downloaded
about 50 of them to do some of the *other* type of research, and
they are all fairly similar.  They state the topics and the
request for polite civil discussion.


Walter


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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:37:02 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left...
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Wrote this about one week ago then unable to send.


Julienne,

Interesting idea ...

> I was thinking of my sense of people here...and how to relate to them.

> Walter - try to get him to talk about how he really feels instead of
> discussing process. :)   As it wouldn't be *his* list, or his place - there
> would be a shift in relationships - an equalizing which might make
> it easier to see each other. Are you an oldest child, Walter?

~~~

My place in the family; I am not sure how it ties in:
Yes, the oldest of two.  From age 3 and a half he would boss me
around, making sure i had my things and so on, quite helpful.  I
have an absent minded professor thing all my life.  I to drift
into a cyber realm, and having it realised technologically has
made it worse.

I am writing from Washington airport, and have the usual anxiety
that I have the right flight number, my wallet, ticket etc.  I
have it well sorted.  The battery will die soon, it only seems to
do about 20 minutes.  I am hearing beeps but it is not this
machine ... there are a lot of restless machines around here.


Meeting as if we are the last left:
If it wasn't my space ... I see a coastline for some reason with
dunes, at sunset.  We are wandering about in twos and threes.  I
am happy to chat with you as we walk along.  That all the others
have gone seems to matter little!  The space has changed from all
of us connecting to one on ones, or twos ... what others are up
to does not effect me.

What do you mean *really* feel.  You have a sense that there is
something under what i feel, that i do not reveal all?  I have
been saying how i feel to you Julienne, and as i do so you feel
accused and attacked.  As i walk along the beach a residue of
feelings about that surface ...

I'd go for a cigar though with you and Dolores.  I imagine we'd
get into quite a bit of hilarity.

Makes me think of a situation once where I was on an intensive
and complex workshop, and a few of us went to the beach late one
night and built a fire.  We went into a silly sort of flight
mode, had lots of fun and were able to get out a lot of the
tension through over the top story telling.

If we were the last ones left ... I wonder where that comes from,
does that remove inhibitions?  A form of truth serum?  A way of
removing the boundaries?  A space within a space?

"I was on a mailing list once where we went to a beach and talked
about a workshop where we went to a beach ..."


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:09:14 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left...
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Hi Walter,

>Julienne,
>
>Interesting idea ...
>
>> I was thinking of my sense of people here...and how to relate to them.
>
>> Walter - try to get him to talk about how he really feels instead of
>> discussing process. :)   As it wouldn't be *his* list, or his place - there
>> would be a shift in relationships - an equalizing which might make
>> it easier to see each other. Are you an oldest child, Walter?
>
>~~~
>
>My place in the family; I am not sure how it ties in:
>Yes, the oldest of two.  From age 3 and a half he would boss me
>around, making sure i had my things and so on, quite helpful.  I
>have an absent minded professor thing all my life.  I to drift
>into a cyber realm, and having it realised technologically has
>made it worse.

Yes, Walter. I sensed that oldest child syndrome. But I am
glad you described it to me this way. I have a similar
situation, if I understand you correctly, with my two sons.
My second son adores his older brother, copies everything
(or used to...) that he does, so much so that my mother
nicknamed him, "Little Sir Echo." But the younger one
takes care of the older, because the older, Noah, has
that absent minded professor thing also. :) He used to
head out of the house when he was quite tiny, sauntering
off to Cub Scouts, with Dhanny running after him with
half his uniform which he'd forgotten to put on.:)

Still to this day, when the three of us go anywhere,
Dhanny and I have all the details taken care of, and
Noah is still asleep, can't find the directions, forgot
to pack...etc. Then we go out to the car, and Dhanny
and I are packing it and checking with each other to

make sure we haven't forgotten anything, and Noah is
smilingly gazing at the sky and asking us to look at
how beautiful it all is. It's wonderful the way personalities
mesh and make a whole picture.

>I am writing from Washington airport, and have the usual anxiety
>that I have the right flight number, my wallet, ticket etc.  I
>have it well sorted.

Sounds like Noah - except that he wouldn't have the anxiety -
just seems to expect it all to work out beautifully.:)

  The battery will die soon, it only seems to
>do about 20 minutes.  I am hearing beeps but it is not this
>machine ... there are a lot of restless machines around here.

>Meeting as if we are the last left:
>If it wasn't my space ... I see a coastline for some reason with
>dunes, at sunset.  We are wandering about in twos and threes.  I
>am happy to chat with you as we walk along.  That all the others
>have gone seems to matter little!  The space has changed from all
>of us connecting to one on ones, or twos ... what others are up
>to does not effect me.

Interesting, Walter - because I saw those of us left on an island.
My ping-pong game with Anita was on the sand by the water.
I'm really glad to think you'd like to talk with me, because I
haven't felt that on this list. Not necessarily your "fault" - perhaps
just different personalities and communication styles. I often
find myself wanting to say to you, "Forget the damn List for a while!
Let it just be - in the background somewhere while we all talk."

Interesting thought you raise - we aren't ever one on one here,
are we? Others are watching everything we do, there is no

privacy, no way to speak to just one person unless we take it
to e-mail - which is seen, it seems, by some as some sort of
betrayal of "the group". Hmmmm....Are we perhaps giving up
some of our individuality here?

>What do you mean *really* feel.  You have a sense that there is
>something under what i feel, that i do not reveal all?  I have
>been saying how i feel to you Julienne, and as i do so you feel
>accused and attacked.  As i walk along the beach a residue of
>feelings about that surface ...

I just feel, as I mentioned above, that you are caught up in
"process" all the time, as though every word we all utter is
somehow a reflection on this list, and to be analyzed in
that context - as though the list created the thought, etc.
(Or something like that - that's just one of many possibilities.)

>I'd go for a cigar though with you and Dolores.  I imagine we'd
>get into quite a bit of hilarity.

Uh oh. Maybe I'd come along later after you'd finished the cigar.
I can't imagine you laughing. What makes you laugh? Almost
anything can set me off - so maybe we'd all end up playing
in the sand - burying each other, wetting each other in the
waves - whatever. Anyway - I hope you like to play.

>Makes me think of a situation once where I was on an intensive
>and complex workshop, and a few of us went to the beach late one
>night and built a fire.  We went into a silly sort of flight
>mode, had lots of fun and were able to get out a lot of the
>tension through over the top story telling.

Good...:)

>If we were the last ones left ... I wonder where that comes from,
>does that remove inhibitions?  A form of truth serum?  A way of
>removing the boundaries?  A space within a space?

I think it removes a lot of things. Authorities to whom we have
to report, or those to whom we have to explain ourselves. Also,
with no one else around, we'd have an incentive to really get
to know each other. (Of course, as everyone else might be dead..
we'd probably go through a lot of grief. But as I'm now very
experienced at that - I could help us all. :) )

I think it does remove a lot of boundaries. No national boundaries,
no police, no laws, no restrictions beyond those of the situation
itself. Of course, if we're going to be realistic, we had better hope
one of us knows brain surgery, another is a mechanic, another
a good cook, etc. What an adventure this would be to actually
do something like this some day - without, of course, the rest
of the world having to be done away with. No need to explain to
those for whom we work how we behave on the island. No worry
about reputation, fame, reward, money...

>"I was on a mailing list once where we went to a beach and talked
>about a workshop where we went to a beach ..."

That sounds really appealing to me right now. And lots of swimming
in the ocean for hours on end...

Love,

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:38:02 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      repost: [P] Getting to the Core
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JoAnne, this is one of the posts where you suggested I shouldn't
be around normal society while grieving.

Julienne

***************************************************************
3/10/1998, JoAnne wrote:

A message from the vicious bitch, please delete this right now if you're in
pain and can't handle it.  I mean it.

What have I got to lose, after all.  Susan has certainly decided I'm no
good.

Hello Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>, on Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:10:00
-0600, you wrote:

(and wouldn't it be wonderful to have a name like Swan.  Lovely and
feminine and certainly appropriate in any situation.  Nothing like my name,
or me.)

>JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
>
>> Of course.  This is normal.  This is why people have a period of
>> mourning.> But that does not mean that the rest of the world will stop
for you.
>> I will say something that you will probably not want to hear:  if you> are
>> in mourning it is your responsibility to remove yourself from> situations
>> that are painful to you.  If no one has let you know this then it's> not
>> your fault, but you should know it.  It's not fair to you to deal with
>> hurtful things, or to the people you deal with to have to walk on>
eggshells
>> in situations that should be just normal everyday situations, where> the
>> participants are expected to be in reasonably good emotional health.
>
>I disagree with this approach and feel it is a selfishness in modern
>society which leads us to even say such things to one another. It used
>to be that people dressed in mourning for a least a year after the death
>of a close family member--this functioned to  say to others "treat this
>person gently; s/he has suffered a great loss."  It is true that the
>mourning person was also expected to curtail his/her activities in some
>ways, but in no way was s/he expected to disappear.  People in normal
>emotional health should be expected to reach out to one another--and
>none of this silliness of saying "you should be over this by now."

I haven't said anything like that, Susan, perhaps you're jumping to a
conclusion?  Maybe I was unclear, but I'll make myself clear now.

I never ever EVER said "you should be over this by now."  In fact, I said
that it takes time to get accustomed to that pain and that you never "get
over it."

I think it's a natural consequence of this that when you're raw it's a
disservice to you and the people you deal with who aren't your close
friends and relatives to force them to deal with you totally raw.  It's a
disservice to strangers to impose on them with your grief and demand that
they care personally about your grief.  And you're not going to be happy
with the results.

It's a matter of degree.  Julienne should not just "disappear."  But as you
say, the person in mourning does not go out and gloom and doom all over
every event, weeping at the amusement park.

You can't get in an argument saying "here I am, a full participant, ready
to kick ass," and then when the going gets tough revert to "stop picking on
me, I'm in mourning and grief, I lost 37 animals and my mommy and daddy and
two friends" as an answer.  That's dishonest, even if it's not consciously
so.  You know you won't take losing an argument well, why get in one?  Why

pull that kind of stunt?  If you can't make it clear that you aren't fit
for real arguments before starting one, that's putting people in a trick
bag.

I didn't expect everyone on earth to want to know that my father had just
died, that August of 1992, or that everyone I met would want to deal with
it.  I didn't expect the cashier at the supermarket to treat me specially
and I didn't make a point of bringing it up to her.  If I felt I couldn't
do something I just didn't do it.

I spent as much time as possible with family and friends who did care.  It
would hurt me, and upset others, for me to be needy in a place where those
needs can't possibly be met.  I stayed out of nasty situations, I stayed
out of trying arguments, I stayed out of competitive situations.  This was
an important part of healing, it kept me from being opened up again every
second.

It is totally wrong to react out of proportion to other people's actions.
If I do something that would make a normal person say, hey, I don't like
that, and instead you scream in pain and bewilderment like a tortured
animal, that's wrong for you and it's wrong for me.  It's a guilt trip.

>The
>shirking of this strikes me as pure cowardice and an unwillingness to
>help shoulder the pain of one another.

It's not always my responsibility to shoulder everyone else's pain.  I
don't think it's everyone else's responsibility to shoulder my pain either.
I don't require it of you, Susan.  I certainly don't see it from everyone
here.  How much can we shoulder?  I'm not willing to take on the pain of
someone who has contempt for me.  It's an agreement, not an obligation.

>Perhaps this is an offshoot of
>over-population, such as rats/mice in overpopulated situations beginning
>to turn on one another, but we MUST combat this notion that only happy
>faces are allowed out in society.

When someone is so pain-ridden that they can't function in society, they're
not doing any good to go out into it.  As a woman who doesn't smile all the
time I realize that society isn't always happy with the nonsmiling face.
Society should be able to handle a variety of faces, happy, sad, unhappy,
bored, excited. However, screaming in pain is just not appropriate for the
grocery store.

Note the "dress in mourning" you mention.  This is a marker that lets
people know, this is a person in mourning, if you don't want to deal with a
person in mourning then you can avoid it.  Today, we make these people walk
raw through the streets and no one knows that there's a fresh sorrow there,
until they step unwillingly into the middle of it.

The people dressed in mourning also avoided social events for a year.  This
wasn't to punish them.  It was to allow them to not have to deal with happy
laughing gay faces at a time when things do not feel happy, laughing or
gay.  The customs protected the grieving people by isolating them.

Do you want them out there?  Then we either have to have a world where
everyone has to be nicey nicey all the time in case there's a grieving
person in the audience, or a place where these grieving people are hurt all
the time.  Sounds stupid to me.

Does sadness and grief really trump all other emotions?  Does anger have no
place?  Levity?  Detachment?  Each of these is inappropriate for the
grieving person to deal with on a regular basis.  Does that mean we hide
all these away permanently because a grieving person might be listening?

This is what I mean by the grieving person protecting him or herself.
There's no glory, glamour or holiness in laying in the road being run over
by oxcarts.  Get on the sidewalk where you belong.  There are plenty of
sidewalks.

>This can only serve to increase the
>pain by saying that pain is illegitimate, much as in how Jim seems to be
>saying to Robert "don't have pain; suck it up and get back to work, you
>lazy S.O.B."  Denied pain can only go underground and come back to kill
>us later--or lead us to kill one another with viciousness as we lash out
>from our own pain to inflict it on others.

And this is what we see if people are not getting the pain expressed to
receptive people.  And this is what we see when people who are in grief or
mourning are ignored, and they go out into the world and tell everyone that
they have to be treated specially because they lost their husband in the
war in 1943.  Serious passive-aggressive stuff.

The solution is not to make the whole world "grief-friendly" because it can
never be, but for those individuals to do things like grief counseling,
spending time with friends and family who give a damn, and putting
themselves in places that are supportive.  Not all places can or should be
supportive.

>        One of the opportunities of this psyber-space is the possibility for
>such support. It doesn't always happen--sometimes we lash out to one
>another in our own pain. But we at least shouldn't be telling one
>another not to want others to tiptoe about or to walk on eggshells for
>us in times of great pain--One reason I have listened for so very long
>is that the pain here was too much, the infliction of pain by one
>another too hard to bear. Honestly I see no point in it.  It makes me
>dread the possibility of Wilbur returning.  Yes, he had some wonderfully
>insightful things to say, but I know for me that the insight was not
>compensation for the viciousness that came with it.

If this is the place for such support, yes, that's right.  But not every
place is a place for that kind of support and people in grief need to know
that they can't just say, my daddy died, and get everyone to stop and tend
to them.  It makes people uncomfortable at best, angry (like me) at worst,
because it demands something from me that I'm not willing to give.
Especially to someone who makes it clear that she gives less than a fuck
about me.

I'm not going to hack this out with Julienne, who will say in the end that
it's unfair for me to say anything because her mommy and daddy died.  My
daddy died, should I use that?  My cat died after 17 years of close
attachment.  What else have I lost?  House fire.  A drug abuser that I
thought loved me, stealing my money and lying to me about it (the lying was
worse).  Getting fired twice for being female and having a big mouth.
Suicidal friends.

I could go on, the list for every one of us is endless.  Every one of us
has loss and pain and grief.  Of course, *Julienne's* pain is greater than
anyone can possibly imagine.  I have never been nearly as grieved as
*Julienne* and could never understand it.  This is what pushes me to the
point of not caring about her.

I can't care about Julienne because she doesn't care about me.  I'm not
real to her.  My life events are a set of hooks for her judgments on me.
Nothing that has happened to me has produced anything but sickness and
anger and insanity, according to her.  Her solutions for me are to stop
being me, to accept her judgment of me as sick and without worth.  I can't
accept that.

Go ahead Julienne, weep all over it or stamp your widdle foot or be wisely
disappointed in me or healthily outraged and never want to speak to me
again, whatever your choices are.  You've never seen any good in me anyway.
Don't bother to pretend any now.

Susan, if you didn't want to see Wilbur, I guess you'll have to see me
instead, at least in this post.  Tell me again, why is grief okay in public
but not anger?  I don't think you have a good answer.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:32:34 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Beyond hissing
In-Reply-To:  <35952412.253060546@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 05:50 PM 6/8/98 +0000, you wrote:
>On Mon, 8 Jun 1998 11:48:42 -0400, you, Julienne
><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>
>>Perhaps JoAnne is right that I should just go away and not
>>bother people until I am "healthy" again.
>
>I never said this.  Why do you keep saying things like this?  it's
>exasperating.

I am reforwarding to the list one of the posts where it certainly sounded
to me like
you said that.

Julienne

>
>-JoAnne
>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:30:16 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Fwd: <nettime> Sentient Experiment #1.1
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This is the post that I mentioned here earlier today.

Simon


---------------

Subject: Re: <nettime> Sentient Experiment #1.1
Date: Sun, 24 May 98 10:13:14 -0000
From: Cultimo <jeroen-g@bigfoot.com>
To: "Nettime" <nettime-l@Desk.nl>
Sender: owner-nettime-l@basis.Desk.nl
Precedence: bulk

>Sentient experiment log #1.1
>
>With drunk: Test in the destruction of the direction by means of repeated
>machine translation.
>
>Method: The expression on several occasions was translated English-French
> and French-English babelfish of the use.
>
><http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate>
>
>Result:
>
>1. we no longer have routines we have acronyms
>
>2. nous n'avons plus des sous-programmes que nous avons des acronymes
>
>3.we do not have any more of the subroutines which we have of the
>   acronyms
>
>4. nous n'avons pas davantage des sous-programmes que nous avons des
>    acronymes
>
>5. we do not have more subroutines which we have of the acronyms
>
>6. nous n'avons pas plus de sous-programmes que nous avons des
>    acronymes
>
>7. we do not have more subroutines than we have acronyms
>
>Conclusion: machine translation a suitable process for the destruction of the
>direction
>
>Let us consider pour Davantage de Recherche: Troislangagesdans
>Laumdrehung Essayez de Traduire average.

So in short: one can conclude that a machine has a big problem with the
grammar of denial. And perhaps one can conclude that a machine has a
problem with the philosophical implication of what is not. Next question:
What does a machine do with possibilities?

Someone once tried to convince me that we - humans - cannot count. We can
tell stories, thats all we can. And a machine - a machine can count.
Based on that it even can play checkers (even though some people stated a
great many years ago that would be impossible). Telling stories and using
language is about imagening that which is not. Is translation the final
border: will it ever be possible to teach a machine to translate? To tell
stories? In an essay 'The ghost and the machine' written by Italo Calvino
he stated that both the structuralistic aproach and the Freudian approach
of stories and dreams add up to the same: the combination of a restricted
group elements into endless combinations. (structuralistic: a story is
formed on grammar bassed on positions of actors, freudian: dreams (and
stories) are formed from symbols comming from our subconscious)

Hence: it will be possible to teach a machine how to tell a story. It
only has to learn how to combine the ellements that can possibly form a
story.

At the M.I.T. they once made a program called 'the endless conversation':
based on a database a  machine made a conversation from the elements
there in. All statements he could use where labelled: question, awnser,
reaction. And they where labelled by subject. So if the machine choose a
random question about choclate milk it searched for an awnser and a
reaction about that subject. The conversation went on until someone
stopped the program.

So we can teach a machine how to combine elements. But we will never
teach a machine the function and meaning of fantasy. Because fantasy has
to do whith that which is not and a machine can only work with that which
is countable.

Jeroen Goulooze ;-)
---
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:49:19 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         VarMan <VarMan@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bye for now
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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i do not know how to get you peole to quit putting this $%#@ in my mailbox
it's
really starting to get on my nerves. this is not my first request i want it
to be my last

kate collie wrote:

> What a fascinating list! Hard to keep up with the daily volume of posts,
> though. I haven't been able to read them carefully enough to respond yet.
> I am going away for a month, so I am signing off for now. Best wishes to
> all of you.
>
> Kate Collie
>
> _______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:00:25 -0600
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Subject:      Re: Bye for now
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VarMan

Read the instructions below and follow them in order to solve your
problems with being subscribed to this list

                II
              \ II /
               \II/
                \/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:14:17 -0700
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
In-Reply-To:  <358e120d.248447234@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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JoAnne,

>To me, logic is just a statement of the way a good portion of the
>world works.  Not the emotional side, of course.

Sometimes it is interesting to pry away at the 'arguement' revealed by
'emotional reasoning' and see how such reasoning abuses sound logical
reasoning. Oddly, one comes away with sort of a 'half truth' about the
emotional side. The half truth is: 'the emotional side doesn't work
according to logic'. Of course!

Or, of course, *that* logic.

We may not have a 'sound reason' for being sad, but we are sad nonetheless
and no retuning of our 'arguement' can help us. (Hey, sometimes it can.)

***

>I only ask that you respect my
>difference from you and not insist that my reality be yours.  The
>"ultimate reality" you perceive may not exist in my universe.

JoAnne, if you've felt disrespected by my didactic pontificating and breeze
blowing, please know its not my intention to disrespect you or your
universe. But, logically, don't we have to be in the same universe?

***

>I don't think logic and intuition are dissonant.  In fact, I feel that
>logic is a very specialized instance of intuition, one that has been
>borne out with time, because I believe that intuition is involuntary
>and mysterious pattern-making in the brain.

This is a fascinating conception. 'Logic is a specialized instance of
pattern-making.' Feel free to share more.

***

regards,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:30:21 -0700
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Subject:      Re: Truth
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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JoAnne,

Before I proceed to respond to your thoughtful post, I'm going to nitpick
on your logic for a sec and  clarify some of my positions.

>Hmm.  Logic was grown in human minds.  Most "natural" reasoning
>approximates it.  So I would have to disagree with what I think >you're
>saying, that logic is not a natural mind function.

"Logic" is a natural mind function. "Logic" defined as the systematic,
'pure' logic. No dispute about that. Natural reason: you'll have to clue me
in on what "natural reasoning" is today, outside of Aquinas, otherwise:
"natural reason is praiseworthy, but not sufficient for salvation".

Has any 'sociologician' (!) studied the day-in and day-out reasoning of
random samples of regular blokes and blokettes? (I know, I have, to some
extent. <;-] )

***

"There is critical thinking that atomizes and finds value in the reduction
to assertions and explication of their validity"

your response:

>Do you find value in that, or not?  I do.  Or do you prefer never to
>know anything logical?  It's your choice, of course.  But it would
>make balancing the checkbook a royal pain.

What a rhetorical response! Why this tact?

If I find value in critical thinking, would it follow, logically, that it's
negation ("critical thinking is never valuable") is true...or false? <g>

My goodness! It's valuable when it is applicably so. There happen to be
cases for which it is not so valuable or valuable at all.  It's not either
a case of your extremely loaded 'never', 'anything'; (in extremis!) or
presuming any case is modally inclusive of all cases, especially given the
way you put it: "Do you find value in that, or not?"

So, when I balance my checkbook I do use simple math, but, for the case
called "ravishing my partner" that kind of logic ends as soon as the right
sock falls to the floor. I'm astonished you were not sure if I was
rejecting a very particular logic "in total"

"Or do you prefer never to know anything logical?"

Why make such a loaded, rhetorical statement? Is logic in need of a
defense? Different domains have their different logics; yes?


***

you write,

>Do you believe that most interpersonal relating has no logical
>component whatsoever?  That there can be no facts?

But, I didn't suggest "most interpersonal relating has no logical component
whatsoever" so why do you wonder if I might believe so? My statement was
clear enough, and comprehensive.

(I stated: "to, or represent some sort of rigorous truthmaking as the
principal reality of such interpersonal discourses is an, ironically,
illogical reduction")

***

You write:

"Of course we can't make any reductionist predictions about human behavior.
The system is too complex."

Sure you can. You just have to throw out the effects which aren't warranted
by the pertinent behavior one wishes to predict. Pare away the system's
complexity to gain some utility. We marketer's do it all the time.
Statistical modelling of consumer behavior may create very workable
projections of future behavior. In fact the generalizing of such powerful
regressions is fairly *logical* evidence that we can make some types of
accurate reductionist predictions about human behavior.

And marketing gets such a bad name...:-(

***

But here's the nub:

>I have mostly avoided actual emotional arguing here, in favor of >what
>many would probably call "nitpicking." As in, I don't believe >the things
>that the other person is saying as truth and as support >for certain
>arguments, and feel I can show that the things are >wrong. Maybe it's
>irrelevant to 99 percent of the human race, but >it's relevant to me, and
>at least one other person I know of.

At least you're not alone!

This strikes me as an admission of a Quixotic urge. On one hand "most
natural reasoning approximates it [logic], on the other hand your
nitpicking you admit yourself, may be "irrelevent to 99 percent of the
human race". (Presumably those same persons for whom natural reasoning
approximates logic.) You would think they'd be grateful!

So what comes first, the truth or the arguement? Why do you say "believe"
and "feel"; what possibly could either have to do with verification in
terms of the application of logic? (I realize I may be falsely inferring
that your nitpicking has to do with logic. I've noted your nitpicking.)

***

But this nub ain't about logic:

"E.g.
"you are angry because you had no emotional support during your
father's death."  Not only is it logically inconclusive, but the
premise of the argument is wrong."

Let's see:

(1) A person is angry
(2) A person received no emotional support
(during their)
(3) father's death

This should be subjected to logical analysis if someone should assert (1)
is caused by (2) & (3)?

Wasn't it you who wrote:

"When a man hits another man there are no bruises, only he said/he said?  I
find that reduction just as poor as the reduction to only logical elements."

? Exactly. Poor...as in: impovershed.

But the nub: such logic is incapable if all it can do is show the premise
to be wrong in the face of the logic of a father

dieing.

***

I wonder what the logic is that drives compassion and atonement?

(So much time I have spent with people trying to unwed them from their cold
logic,

logic which has interfered with the *natural* workings of the

heart.)

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:17:36 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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Hi Karina,

The name is familiar, have you been on the list before?  Welcome,
and i hope you find it fruitful.


Walter




Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:45:22

karina_sim@YAHOO.COM has just subscribed  to the PSYBER-L list
(Psybernet Mailing List).

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:33:41 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:17:47
-0400 you wrote:

>Except when JoAnne came on my List, we have managed to
>handle anger there.

You didn't handle it when I was there?

I was the only one with "anger" as you describe it?

>But it's not a list where we process as we
>do here. It's a professional discussion List where we are not
>as busy discussing each other's motives. And yet we have a
>number of off-list friendships which have developed through
>the List, and many who connect via the telephone and ICQ
>as well. I just spent a few days at a conference where one of
>the List members was also an attendee, and we had several
>meals together and spent time intentionally to get to know
>each other better. More of us know more details about each
>other's lives than we seem to know here. When one list member
>recently had a financial crisis we raised the money to help
>save him from eviction without a lot of fanfare.
>
>Are we kind but dishonest? I don't think so. When we disagree
>with each other, we tend to say so - but not to the point of
>ramming it down each other's throats as happens when
>JoAnne is there.

So stop choking and get on with it.  I'm sick of your bullshit.

>We're not angels - we get cranky and
>abrupt and at times insensitive, but the only time we had
>any prolonged episode of real hostility which lasted over
>the span of a few posts back and forth, was when JoAnne
>was there.

I am the devil!  I am evil incarnate!  You will all bow to my ability to
fuck anything up that exists!!!

>As we are trying to discuss professional issues and
>questions, when a topic is instead reduced to personal attacks
>on the poster instead of the content of the post, we get
>nowhere, and we lose the more serious professionals
>who don't want to waste their time with that.

Pfft.  Bullshit.

>Another issue to look at is that no one comes out of such
>episodes cleanly. Most people don't read every post, or
>know the personal histories, and just as we have here
>on this list at the moment, all people know is that there's
>a lot of unpleasantness going on, and they don't want
>to open their e-mail in the morning. They don't know
>who started it, or even who said what, nor do they want
>to be bothered with thinking about that.

You use this to your advantage, making it seem as though I am the source of
trouble.  No one cares what the source is, they just want it to stop.  You
scream and cry and wail and sputter and they all get behind you and say,
stop, you bad horrible JoAnne you.

Well not all... as you know.

>Next thing, they go off
>to another professional List where they can discuss the
>same topics without the unpleasantness. They don't
>specifically remember who said what - all they know is
>that what's being said is inappropriate.

And they don't have any sense of who or what, just remember that you threw
me off and everything was suddenly nice and peachy.  Because you stopped
crying like a stuck pig.

>I have also had people check with me and with each other
>by e-mail or ICQ when they were concerned about the tone
>of a post - and that has helped to clarify matters and heal
>misunderstandings.

It has probably helped to continue a lot of misunderstandings, if you've
been spreading your ideas about me.

>We actually know a lot more about each other than people
>seem to know on here. We share life crises and issues,
>and step in to help where we can.

I thought you knew nothing about me, we had no history.

>We have someone on the
>list now who is in the hospital with cancer, and we share
>news of her - in fact her middle-aged daughter sends us
>reports every few days, and we respond in various ways,
>from making phone calls to her to sending cards and
>flowers. Yet when my parents died, JoAnne told me to
>go away until I was fit for "normal" society again,

Bullshit again.

>and said
>I shouldn't be on this list until I had healed enough from
>their deaths to be able to deal fully with any hostility.
> And when Robert told this list he was having problems and
>leaving his job for a while, he was read the riot act.

By me?  no.

>Well...enough.

more than enough bullshit.  Shut the fuck up.  You asshole.

-joanne

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Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:33:57 GMT
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 6 Jun 1998 23:17:47
-0400 you wrote:

many things to try to get me to respond.

-j

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:34:51 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 6 Jun 1998 03:08:27
-0400 you wrote:

>At 07:59 AM 6/6/98 +1200, Barry wrote:
>>Hi Simon
>>
>>> Should honesty come with kindness? And which is better: honesty without
>>> kindness, or kindness without honesty?
>>
>>There are other choices.  Unlike 'military intelligence', honesty and
>>kindness are not mutually exclusive words.  The older I get, the more I see
>>the thousand shades of grey between the two.  I'll go for honesty *with*
>>kindness every time.
>>
>>Call me old fashioned . . .
>
>I don't think you're old fashioned. I think honesty without kindness
>probably is dishonest in that it has an agenda beyond the purported
>honesty.

Because you have no idea what honesty is.

-joanne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:56:53 -0700
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From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: repost: to Julienne
MIME-Version: 1.0
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                Dear Julienne

          *I saw your repost
          I understand your feelings, but,
          It's regrettable to repeat it again.
          So, I send my email to you.

                     1.

                    (1)

   You told me about your life's experiences
      and other's attitudes toward you.

   You said that the experiences were bitter
       and were, at times, angry with others,
         who didn't have cared about you
            ,or had attacked you. .
              (still .....attcking you)

                      (2)

                   Further,
You said that you looked forward to getting to know me.
                        :)
And I think that it's more good to tell my experiences
   directly than to speak conceptually or poetically.

 Therefore, you may be very tired of reading
       my ugly sentences and tales.
   (there are many wrong and unfluent
       expressions, too long gibber)
But I will try to explain my feelings and thoughts.

    I won't say roundaboutly, or aggressively.
 I will say frankly according to my experiences
             and impressions.
      I believe that you read with warm eyes.

********************************************************
                    2.


    Now, I am thinking on my past experiences.
                As you know,
 everyone has her/his own painful  experiences.

I am 43 years old,..... in korean age, 44 years old.
   :)I am older than you, haha...
So, I think I know the pains and joys in life
           ...but very little.

        When I was in the twenties,
 I wanted to be a great woman(haha, how stupid!).
       (My ideal models are unfortunately
      males...-Jesus Christ, G. Buddha, and M. Gandi......)

I participated in democratic movement in university
     and went to the factory for labor movement.
         We were under the dictatorship.
         I wanted to change this society
         to a peaceful and democratic one.
        Nevertheless, I was a skeptic in a sense
               (Of course, now,
     our sociey is much more democratized).

             After graduation,
  I worked at Human  Rights Committee of KNCC
        (Korea National Council of Churches)

               At that time,
I knew people's various aspects and feelings,
                much more,
               hate and love,
            cruelty and warmness,
              fear and courage,
             envy and generosity
           indifference and passion
             folly and wisdom.
     vicious guard and struggle for freedom
          disbelief and belief
          spirituality and corruption
   greed for power and limitless forgiveness....
   ................. death................
And I felt the violent waves and flows of history.

But, there, I was too hurt  and  plunged in despair
           by people's vulgar acts
         ..and nearly lost my mind
        (I am too young and too naive)

        I escaped from eveything.
    I slept a long while, spiritually.

                And,
     I turned the coutless corners
        and has arrived here.

             Since 1981,
   I has been reponsible for my weak parents.
  (My father often used to go into hospital)
My brothers didn't care about it(they were busy).
I had to work for a living. (^.^ everyone must..)
              ...Too busy....
  ..studying, writing, lecturing...translating...

               Sometimes,
 I failed in my occupations and my life.
I felt that I had no ability to manage my life well.
      I had to struggle for surviving

               Sometimes,
     I was hurt by the hates of the members
           of my family toward me,
        (my elder brothers and her wives )

              Sometimes,
              I thought
       that no one helped me
   and everyone disturbed me in my work.
   I hated my life,  myself and others,

                Sometimes,
      I wanted to die and even to kill others.

**************************************************
                    3.

* One accident in my life as an example of bitter
               experiences.
(we can't enumerate all kinds of terrible things,
       , here, it's too heavy)

  In 1993, I was injured in a traffic accident.
I came to know life to be determined in a moment.
      ..forked road between life and death,
       (in a momont of Tic, Tac, Tic, Kung)
          ..bloods and deep hurts
    ..broken car, fumes, broken glasses...etc..
         surgical operation for 5 hours,
         hospitalization for one month.

        I couldn't sit up and ...waw..........
    I also went through various things and felt..
        hatred, sorrow, love, concern, pain
        death, indifference, delight, despair..

                First of all,
     one of the members of my family
  took an aggressive attitude toward me.

            She was a doctor,
 So It seemed that she felt me to be her burden
           in many aspects.
    She didn't want to care for me.
 She  expressed nakedly her  feelings of annoyance
        at the  sick  room in  the hospital.
     (In fact, I had helped her for a long time
  That was the first time that I owed a debt to her).

     I was ill, but she didn't care about it.
   Oh, who knows my frights and sorrows at that time!
         What a cruel thing she said to me!
       (I understand your feelings about others
         who dont's care about your sorrows)

 Of course, I had to work in spite of my hurts.
I was lecturing 24 hours a week before an accident.
     Even when I was lying ill in bed,
in a week later, I recorded my lectures in tapes
     and sent them to four universities.

           After leaving hospital,
       I had to lean on sticks for 6 months.
 For a while, I was a physically handicapped person.
        How terrible I had to endure
         other's eyes in the street
        and taxi-drivers' unkindness!

*******************************************************

                      4.

                  But, but,
     I could understand her sense of burdens
              (as a doctor)
  from a lot of sick relatives, her hard works,
          and bored daily lives,
and also comprehend my brother's desire for success
          and fear for failure.
   (They didn't want to be bothered by anyone.
      Most of the people are similar.)

      In hospital, except unkind nurses,
 there were some kind patients and their families.
   They treated me warmly and took care of me.

             In the street,
I met some warm-hearted persons and taxi-drivers.
They were concerned about me and took care of me.

                In fact,
               In spite of
 various unpleasant and unendurable experiences,
          I was very happy
         and very delighted
only for reasons of still living, here, in this world.

              Of course,
 I had some troubles in mind in many aspects.
          Fear, hate, fright.....etc

********************************************************
                      5.

  Now, It seems that I am healty(in my opinion)
              in mind and body.

                I  still live,
          pleasantly and comfortably.

                At times,
                I am sad
        and disappointed by my inability.

                  But,
           I try to do my best.
      and try to love myself and others.

**************************************************************
                     6.

One of the things that I realize in my life is this;
     that Life is short like a flash of light,
       that human beings are fragile,
           imperfect( have vices)
           ,and sometimes cruel.

               Nevertheless,
 that life and human beings are great and wonderful.

       I am usually delighted
       to get up in the morning
          ,to breathe
    , and to walk and run in the street .

           As you said,
            Although
 A lot of cruel things are happening in this world and
We sometimes meet vicious people even in our family,
   Those are not everything(as you know).

     Those are one side of life.
   Cruel people are not always cruel,
           sometimes,
       they are changed...
    and can be nice men/women.

            It's up to us
      Love evokes love, hate evokes hate....
       (You already saw it here.
And you said that you were a nice woman
          in other mailing list.
  I know it. You are a excellent writer.
     You can find other's warmness
and have generosity to accept other's apology
 and have the sense of responsibility
         to take care of your father).

       Mose of people are all lonely
      and want to gain the affection.

(we are all sometimes wrong and sometimes right)

Best regards.

Meeseo. ~.*.....@.@...:)

PS:
[Memes enter our minds without our permission.They become part of our
mental programming and influence
 our lives without us even being aware of it]
               Richard Brodie, [Virus of the mind]

    How and where can we get the art of forgetting
    injuires  inflicted on us in the past and present
       , and wrongs we have done others?

       Love.Forgiveness.Hope



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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 03:30:33 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: repost: to Julienne
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Dear Meeseo,

At 10:56 PM 6/8/98 -0700, you wrote:
>                Dear Julienne
>
>          *I saw your repost
>          I understand your feelings, but,
>          It's regrettable to repeat it again.

I agree, but JoAnne insists she did not say things she did.
It would be better if we could move beyond.

>          So, I send my email to you.

Thank you...Meeseo.

>                     1.
>
>                    (1)
>
>   You told me about your life's experiences
>      and other's attitudes toward you.
> >
>   You said that the experiences were bitter
>       and were, at times, angry with others,
>         who didn't have cared about you
>            ,or had attacked you. .
>              (still .....attcking you)
>
>                      (2)
>
>                   Further,
>You said that you looked forward to getting to know me.
>                        :)
>And I think that it's more good to tell my experiences
>   directly than to speak conceptually or poetically.

Meeseo, I don't think you could not speak poetically...
All you write is poetry...

>Therefore, you may be very tired of reading
>       my ugly sentences and tales.
>   (there are many wrong and unfluent
>       expressions, too long gibber)

No. I am touched and humbled that you would take
the time to write to me. And you are not unfluent -
you use English in new and unboring ways so that
we who read see the words differently - and see
and hear new and different meaning in them.

>But I will try to explain my feelings and thoughts.
>    I won't say roundaboutly, or aggressively.

>I will say frankly according to my experiences
>             and impressions.
>      I believe that you read with warm eyes.

They respond to your warmth...

>********************************************************
>                    2.
>
>
>    Now, I am thinking on my past experiences.
>                As you know,
>everyone has her/his own painful  experiences.
>
>I am 43 years old,..... in korean age, 44 years old.
>   :)I am older than you, haha...

No, Meeseo...I am a lot older than you. At least in years.

You were born just as I came from Australia to live
in the United States. My father was in the United Nations,
and he was appointed to UNKRA - the United Nations
Korean Reconstruction Agency...and so, in a strange way,
you and I are connected.

>So, I think I know the pains and joys in life
>           ...but very little.
>
>        When I was in the twenties,
>I wanted to be a great woman(haha, how stupid!).
>       (My ideal models are unfortunately
>      males...-Jesus Christ, G. Buddha, and M. Gandi......)

Why no female models? One of mine was the Virgin Mary.
Another was God.

>I participated in democratic movement in university
>     and went to the factory for labor movement.
>         We were under the dictatorship.
>         I wanted to change this society
>         to a peaceful and democratic one.
>        Nevertheless, I was a skeptic in a sense
>               (Of course, now,
>     our sociey is much more democratized).
>
>             After graduation,
>  I worked at Human  Rights Committee of KNCC
>        (Korea National Council of Churches)
>
>               At that time,
>I knew people's various aspects and feelings,
>                much more,
>               hate and love,
>            cruelty and warmness,
>              fear and courage,
>             envy and generosity
>           indifference and passion
>             folly and wisdom.
>     vicious guard and struggle for freedom
>          disbelief and belief
>          spirituality and corruption
>   greed for power and limitless forgiveness....
>   ................. death................
>And I felt the violent waves and flows of history.
>
>But, there, I was too hurt  and  plunged in despair
>           by people's vulgar acts
>         ..and nearly lost my mind
>        (I am too young and too naive)

I asked my professor what was wrong with me.
We read Kierkegarrd, or Nietzsche - and they tore my heart
apart and filled it with hope and sadness and so many
emotions, but in class we discussed what so and so said
on page 73, as though it were merely an intellectual exercise.
I wanted to know if there was something wrong with me
because I felt everything so strongly when others didn't.
Luckily - that professor married me...

>        I escaped from eveything.
>    I slept a long while, spiritually.

>
>                And,
>     I turned the coutless corners
>        and has arrived here.
>
> >             Since 1981,
>   I has been reponsible for my weak parents.
>  (My father often used to go into hospital)
>My brothers didn't care about it(they were busy).
>I had to work for a living. (^.^ everyone must..)
>              ...Too busy....
>  ..studying, writing, lecturing...translating...

You had a situation similar to mine. I know that
this is a common experience - that usually the
daughters/sisters are left to take care of the parents,
while the brothers don't.

>               Sometimes,
>I failed in my occupations and my life.
>I felt that I had no ability to manage my life well.
>      I had to struggle for surviving

And after the failures the rising again showed you
you did have the ability to survive...?

>               Sometimes,
>     I was hurt by the hates of the members
>           of my family toward me,
>        (my elder brothers and her wives )

My brothers were all younger - but their wives and
girl friends were part of the pain.

>              Sometimes,
>              I thought
>       that no one helped me
>   and everyone disturbed me in my work.
>   I hated my life,  myself and others,
>
>                Sometimes,
>      I wanted to die and even to kill others.

I know how you must have felt...I wondered what purpose there
could be to my continuing to live, until I thought of my children -
and then such thoughts were gone. I didn't want to kill others -
People would say to me that those who hurt me would feel
pain for their actions - from the universe. But that gives me no

more than a moment's satisfaction. I don't want them to suffer -
just to wake up one morning feeling differently...to understand
that causing harm to others only can cause harm to their souls
in the long run.

>**************************************************
>                    3.
>
>* One accident in my life as an example of bitter
>               experiences.
>(we can't enumerate all kinds of terrible things,
>       , here, it's too heavy)
>
>  In 1993, I was injured in a traffic accident.
>I came to know life to be determined in a moment.
>      ..forked road between life and death,
>       (in a momont of Tic, Tac, Tic, Kung)
>          ..bloods and deep hurts
>    ..broken car, fumes, broken glasses...etc..
>         surgical operation for 5 hours,
>         hospitalization for one month.

>        I couldn't sit up and ...waw..........
>    I also went through various things and felt..
>        hatred, sorrow, love, concern, pain
>        death, indifference, delight, despair..
>
>                First of all,
>     one of the members of my family
>  took an aggressive attitude toward me.

I had a large cancer removed from my back during this time-
about 6" square on my back - and my mother, a few months
before she died, said to me angrily, "Your cancer isn't even
malignant!" I think her mind wasn't working clearly. I also
had 3 car accidents - although I wasn't driving. I was only
hospitalized briefly.

>            She was a doctor,
>So It seemed that she felt me to be her burden
>           in many aspects.
>    She didn't want to care for me.
>She  expressed nakedly her  feelings of annoyance
>        at the  sick  room in  the hospital.
>     (In fact, I had helped her for a long time
>  That was the first time that I owed a debt to her).

>     I was ill, but she didn't care about it.
>   Oh, who knows my frights and sorrows at that time!
>         What a cruel thing she said to me!
>       (I understand your feelings about others
>         who dont's care about your sorrows)
>
>Of course, I had to work in spite of my hurts.
>I was lecturing 24 hours a week before an accident.
>     Even when I was lying ill in bed,
>in a week later, I recorded my lectures in tapes
>     and sent them to four universities.

I was also supporting my children, and then my father as well
the last year - so I know how you felt, Meeseo.

>           After leaving hospital,
>       I had to lean on sticks for 6 months.
>For a while, I was a physically handicapped person.
>        How terrible I had to endure
>         other's eyes in the street
>        and taxi-drivers' unkindness!

I couldn't walk for two months after the 4th time my
brothers attacked me. One of my legs is still numb
under my knee. I think others are intolerant when we
are hurt because they need to think thoe who are hurt
deserve it - that they must have done something bad.
That gives them an excuse not to have to help...

>*******************************************************
>                      4.
>
>                  But, but,
>     I could understand her sense of burdens
>              (as a doctor)

>  from a lot of sick relatives, her hard works,
>          and bored daily lives,
>and also comprehend my brother's desire for success
>          and fear for failure.
> >   (They didn't want to be bothered by anyone.
>      Most of the people are similar.)

>      In hospital, except unkind nurses,
>there were some kind patients and their families.
>   They treated me warmly and took care of me.

Those who do care and help make all the difference,
and are signs of hope - like angels in the air...

>             In the street,
>I met some warm-hearted persons and taxi-drivers.
>They were concerned about me and took care of me.

Good...I am glad they were there for you...

>                In fact,
>               In spite of
>various unpleasant and unendurable experiences,
>          I was very happy
>         and very delighted
>only for reasons of still living, here, in this world.

That has to come from somewhere deep inside you -


>              Of course,
>I had some troubles in mind in many aspects.
>          Fear, hate, fright.....etc
>
>********************************************************
>                      5.
>
>  Now, It seems that I am healty(in my opinion)
>              in mind and body.
>
>                I  still live,
>          pleasantly and comfortably.
>
>                At times,
>                I am sad
>        and disappointed by my inability.
>
>                  But,
>           I try to do my best.
>      and try to love myself and others.
>
>**************************************************************

>                     6.
>
>One of the things that I realize in my life is this;
>     that Life is short like a flash of light,
>       that human beings are fragile,
>           imperfect( have vices)
>           ,and sometimes cruel.
>
>               Nevertheless,
>that life and human beings are great and wonderful.
>
>       I am usually delighted
>       to get up in the morning
>          ,to breathe
>    , and to walk and run in the street .
>
>           As you said,
>            Although
>A lot of cruel things are happening in this world and
>We sometimes meet vicious people even in our family,
>   Those are not everything(as you know).
>
>     Those are one side of life.
>   Cruel people are not always cruel,
>           sometimes,
>       they are changed...
>    and can be nice men/women.

This is what makes it so hard - because it is so
sad to see that people we know can be good and kind,
can also be hard and cruel. When I saw my mother
that way, and my brothers, I think it was the worst thing
in my life. I didn't want to think they could be so hard.
People say soemtimes that my mother never loved me,
but that's not my experience of her. I loved her, and my
brothers, so maybe that seemed like enough love. But
so far it seems it's not...

>            It's up to us
>      Love evokes love, hate evokes hate....
>       (You already saw it here.

I am not so sure I believe that. Some people
are surrounded by love, and don't seem to feel it.
They even feel hate. But I try to act as though they
will eventually feel the love...because to give up
would also to be to give up on them.

>And you said that you were a nice woman
>          in other mailing list.

Well...I'm just the same me...but I am seen differently
on other lists. Maybe it's that we're received differently
by those who recognize different parts of us - or who
project different things onto us...as we do with them.

>  I know it. You are a excellent writer.
>     You can find other's warmness
>and have generosity to accept other's apology
>and have the sense of responsibility
>         to take care of your father).

No...not responsibility. I did it from love. I couldn't
leave my father the way he had been abandoned
by the others - it broke my heart too much to see him
that way. The greatest gift I received was to see him
get healthier when I brought him home, and start to
laugh again, and be happy to see people...even though
no one in the family would visit him his last 10 months.
Just my sons - and their friends and mine. My 3 brothers
live in this town, with their teen-age families. No one
would see him. They wouldn't see my mother much
either - except for one of the other grandchildren who
came to see his grandmother from the other side of
the country where he was living after finishing college.

>       Mose of people are all lonely
>      and want to gain the affection.
>
>(we are all sometimes wrong and sometimes right)

And sometimes it's not so clear.

Meeseo, thank you so much for sharing your soul.
Your life is spread across these pages with so much
feeling, so much gentleness and goodness and
lovingness...one whole life in so few words...

It's as though you just told a wonderful story, and
now I would like to hear your next story. But there
is no next story - this is your story. Only more
details, more characters, more feelings...You
made your life come alive, Meeseo...and you
through it.
Thank you.
and much love,

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:25:38 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Power and Construction in Psyberspace
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Robert,

In the following post:  Power and Construction in Psyberspace,
Sat, 6 Jun 1998 you wrote:

> For one person to be the "architect" the "constructor" of a community is
> impossible in this space.

Hmmm,  the very software we choose determines a lot.  The
software decrees that one person is the list owner.  It makes a
lot of difference what the list is called, what is in the
description and the charter.  The myriads of settings about
access to membership, archives etc. make a difference, and the
power to remove people from the list is part of the construction
that only the list owner has.

I agree that the power is not absolute, and that anything can
happen once these more fixed elements are in place.  Yet I always
ask how these factors have "created" the situation we find
ourselves.   The members and the events will feed back into how
the list is structured, as you point out with my recent effort to
welcome people.  It could even be said that the members of the
list get the sort of structure they 'deserve'  ...  that their
choices and impact on the list creates the structure.

I guess the truth is all of the above and more.

I was interested in your comment about making a place for the
introductions.  That is an architectural decision.  One way would
be simply to have a page on the web with links to members intros
in the archives and to their home pages etc.  Perhaps someone
could set that up.  I'd be happy to assist.  To make that an
integral part of the list it could be mentioned in the welcome
file, and there, by definition the LO has the option about
including it or not.

On the welcoming of new people ... It is hard to do when all i
have is an email address.  I am leaning more to the opinion that
it would be good for subscriptions to go via the LO.  Once people
subscribe they would get an email asking them to write a brief
intro, as well as an explanation of the lists purpose.  This is
not a way of exclusion, though it might lead to a higher rate of
self selection.  In fact my guess is that it would lead to more
wanting to join.  I am in the process of re writing the
appropriate files in order to implement this ... i have mentioned
this here a month or more ago, at that time Simon liked to think
of this as an open space one could wander into and discover
something new (Is that about right Simon?)  Your comments, Simon
made sense to me and made me rethink.  I am still not sure.  More
discussion might lead to clarity on the matter.  It is also
related to the over-all direction of Psyber-L that is still alive
in the slow flowing dialogue with Marie.

~~~

Robert:
> I doubt that anyone can truly become the leader or avoid
> leading should they allow their voice to speak for them.

When it comes to the writing of posts we are more equal.  Yet
there is a lot someone with leadership qualities can do ... I
heard recently about a web based "community" on a commercial site
that wants to promote a certain image for their product.  The
employ people to facilitate the discussion and create topics that
raise the sorts of matters they want associated with the product,
you can imagine the sort of thing -- cool urban international
chick, freedom etc.  People follow the line!  I find it one of
the most sickening aspects of the development on the web.  Ads
are one thing, but manipulated discussion ... ugh.

~~~

I have probably said this before , but to emphasise the reality
of power of the LO I think it is worth using the title clearly
and describing the powers accurately.  These powers are extensive
in so far as the writing and enforcing of the charter goes.
Outside of the power invested in, and following from the embedded
power, there is really only "participation".

~~~

Robert, I have been mulling over your thoughts ... like Simon I
want ask how that comes across ... my aim is to further our
understanding and to share experiences with a fellow List owner.
I would also be interested in comments from others of course.


walter









__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:25:42 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: New Threads
In-Reply-To:  <356dcf6d.8906153@mail.datablast.net>
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A while back I wrote:

> In the Listserv (r) software that we use *thread* is formed when
> we use the exact same Subject line.  (The Re: is usually added
> automatically.)  Most email programs can sort all the posts in a
> folder by "Thread".  By default the archives on the web are
> viewed by Thread.
>
> Please follow this convention with some care.  Only use a new
> Subject line if you consciously wish to start a new thread.
> Knowing when and how to do that is an art in its own right!

I am in the process of catching up on the list and reading
threads is the way i do it.  I can print out a whole thread and
read it in sequence over lunch.  Unfortunately they are not
always representative of the actual thread in the discussion, and
i renew the request to use the threads ... they create a  poetry
in the list in their own way.

I have also noticed that there is a link between "threading" and
the need for quoting.  In a well threaded discussion each post
follows directly the post it is replying to, and so only very
little quoting is needed.

It is much easier to read posts with few quotes and with precis
rather than multiple generation of quotes.  I think it will help
us a lot in our enjoyment if we work well with these conventions.


It is also a good idea to delete the remains of a post that is
not used in the new one.  One good reason is that it costs money
for some to receive email and also to store the archives!

Thanks,


Walter





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:25:45 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Anita's Ping-Pong: Games and Conflict Resolution
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Charles,

you wrote, speaking about the symmetry or other patterns  in
conflict:

> There's a suggestion that an antagonistic shadow situation which may have
> its tap roots, as someone suggested, elsewhere but which crystallizes
> around two persons in what I'm gonna go right ahead and term "a symmetry of
> name calling" *might* -- just *might* -- be susceptible to some form of
> resolution via a game.


This is an invitation to Julienne and JoAnne ... and they have
both indicated a willingness to participate in a GBG.  Marvelous!
I think this is a great opportunity.

You  the relationship between Julienne and JoAnne as you suggest
can be seen as the "crystallisation of a situation" ... real and
specific to the two of them and also representative of the whole.

Julienne said

 Re: If we were the last ones left...
  Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:09:14 -0400

:: I just feel, as I mentioned above, that you are caught up in
:: "process" all the time, as though every word we all utter is
:: somehow a reflection on this list, and to be analyzed in
:: that context - as though the list created the thought, etc.

I do think that!  While not discounting the "individual" aspect.
The reason i mention it here is because I don't think it would be
right to think we are focussing on *one* relationship without it
being highly relevant to us all.  Julienne, you point this out
really clearly here:

  Re: Simon - finding meaning in the abyss
  Sat, 6 Jun 1998 14:07:55 -0400

you wrote:

:: I am suggesting that you
:: quit talking about us. We are not your problem. We are the
:: hook-of-the-moment. And whether you rage at one or the
:: other of us, or write sad poems about the horror of it all,
:: each has to take responsibility for his or her input into the
:: aggression which was evoked and displayed on this list
:: well before we even arrived.
::
:: Walter - I'm not going to "resolve" this just to make you
:: feel better. You need to look at why the chaos of this list
:: feels so heavy to you, and how you participate in its
:: continuation.

I agree with all of that and so it is worth noting that even in
focussing on one relationship we are, each of us looking at our
own stuff, present before, during and after our connections with
JoAnne and Julienne.

Charles you mentioned some things off list, and that it was ok to
respond here:

You suggested doing this in a separate list and i like the idea
of that too.  There is an opportunity to structure that for the
purpose and i would like to join with you on that Charles.

The idea of two boards one for the "protagonists" and one for the
rest of us seems a good idea.  The "participants" board would
assist us in "take responsibility for his or her input", as
Julienne mentions above.

I suggest that the games, without the discussions be posted to
this list, and thus return something to the list and thus do not
create an "abandonment" as the "DreamEvent" might have done.

How does all that sound?



Walter











__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:25:49 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Some quick points..
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980608134001.007c7eb0@easynet.co.uk>
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Dolores

> Void was the man I loved (see post on New Orleans, can't remember what it
> was called) my boyfriend.

I am astounded!  What an interesting turn of events.  What has it
been like to keep that quiet till now?  What is it that prompts
you to reveal?

A case of beauty in the revelation of truth!

I think so ... ?


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:07:21 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980608134001.007c7eb0@easynet.co.uk>
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Dolores
In the following post:

  Re: Some quick points..
  Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:40:01 +0100

you wrote:

> In the great J & J and
> Wilbur saga, the list fell to pieces, nobody took charge, every body stood
> back, throwing up their hands in horror, or ineffectualy protesting that
> this wasn't nice. The list could not handle what was happening, it
> fragmented. That needen't have happened. We weren't equipped for the
> dropping in our area, of something new and hithertoo not dealt with.
> Somebody should have said, shut the fuck up.

You see that a picture is painted that is not accurate in the
case of Mark / Void ... can you see that you paint pictures here
of others which exclude the intentions they have?  And that you
then perhaps have a part in provoking ...

JoAnne
In the following post:

  Re:
  Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:33:41 GMT

wrote:

> more than enough bullshit.  Shut the fuck up.  You asshole.


Perhaps provoked by Julienne it that post or even in the earlier:


Julienne
In the following post:

  Beyond hissing
  Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:14:29 -0400

wrote:


> Well - surprise. Now my subconscious is socking
> me with this anger. And I just want to say "Fuck you!"
> to any so-called malevolent god who thinks it's okay
> to let people die, and to people on this list who think
> it's okay to dump their shit on me and then say,
> "Oh Dear - that's not nice of you to be angry with us
> for ignoring your grief and letting JoAnne attack you
> and - whatever".  So, yes - I'm mad at you and any
> gods and whoever else gets in my way right now.

~~~


I think all of these posts go against the spirit of the welcome
file, which states that ad hominem attacks are not welcome.
These posts contribute to level of venom that goes against the
work we are doing here.

As list owner i can remove people and close the list.  It is
certainly on my mind.

What holds me back at this point is that all of this darkness has
been seen as shadow, as strangely beautiful, as aspects of us
all, as something to face, as something to learn from.  This
attitude towards it is put forward by many in the list, and by
the very people I have quoted above.  At the same time as I see
this darkness I see the light in some of the dialogues, again
including us all.  I have little difficulty in seeing the needs
and intentions through offensive words.  There is also the very
specific plan suggested by Charles to attend to this as a
situation in a GBG, to which there has been a positive response
... it does not seem the right time to simply use the del
command.

I request that even in the heat of this work, and even when
feeling provoked that we refrain from  attacking the person
rather than the ideas & statements.  That we refrain from name
calling.  I request that we search in ourselves for ways to
respect others even while angry and hurt.

I request that as list owner, because i want us to honour what is
in the files that create Psyber-L, if that is not your wish then
please write elsewhere.


Walter











__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:56:29 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dear Walter,

This might be a case of too little too late. You can't suddenly decide at
point x that your going to start playing the hard man when you've so far
rested on your laurels and avoided all issues of confrontation (read flying
cows) for a good example.

Far be it from me to think that Joanne could be influenced by something I
wrote, would that I had such power. Its like attributing the watching of
Texas Chain saw massacre to the acts of every axe wield maniac.
Joanne is quite capable of penning the words fuck off for herself. And good
for her, if she wants to tell Julienne to Fuck off then she has every right
to, even though the issue would be in my mind that if the two of them would
just ignore each other then and mouth fuck off to each other silently.


>You see that a picture is painted that is not accurate in the
>case of Mark / Void ... can you see that you paint pictures here
>of others which exclude the intentions they have?  And that you

I didn't paint any pictures of either J or J. The only pictures I paint are
of myself. Its the only canvas I can be sure the paint is adhering to
correctly.

>JoAnne


>In the following post:
>
>  Re:
>  Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:33:41 GMT
>
>wrote:
>
>> more than enough bullshit.  Shut the fuck up.  You asshole.
>
Perhaps not terribly elequont but it made a point.


>I think all of these posts go against the spirit of the welcome
>file, which states that ad hominem attacks are not welcome.
>These posts contribute to level of venom that goes against the
>work we are doing here.
>
>As list owner i can remove people and close the list.  It is
>certainly on my mind.

The welcome file is bullshit, its not the spirit of the list. The spirit of
the list are the people that contribute to it. We write the welcome file in
every post we send. We create the list, you provide us with the agar jelly,
but we grow the culture. You can wish the list to be a million things it
isn't, bottom line is that the list is more than the sum of the welcome
file. Sod the spirit of the welcome file in that case, its a
misrepresentation of what 'actually' goes on here.
Its no wonder people up and leave, and that the only people that really
post are those that have been here a long time and have forgotten whats in
the welcome file anyway. I don't think I ever read it anyway. Flog me with
a radish and call me uncaring.


At the same time as I see
>this darkness I see the light in some of the dialogues, again
>including us all.  I have little difficulty in seeing the needs
>and intentions through offensive words.  There is also the very
>specific plan suggested by Charles to attend to this as a
>situation in a GBG, to which there has been a positive response
>... it does not seem the right time to simply use the del
>command.

A word cannot be offensive in my eyes or ears. It is merely a word. How can
you be offended by a combination of 26 letters. Its the meaning that we put
behind the word that is offencive. I could say bannana and make it sound
like asshole. Words are beautiful things, each of them precious and with
life of their own. The Intent behind the word is offensive, Never words.
Each has its own place and time. Fuck off is a valid sentiment, to me its
never an offensive word. I never knew a man that found the word Fuck
offencive when combined with the words, I want you to come **** me and I
want it now.. or any other variaton on the above theme.

>I request that even in the heat of this work, and even when
>feeling provoked that we refrain from  attacking the person
>rather than the ideas & statements.  That we refrain from name
>calling.

What work?? Back to the old labs and rats and mazes?


 I request that we search in ourselves for ways to
>respect others even while angry and hurt.

erm..why? They hate each other, why should they respect each other, respect
has to be earned, why the hell do I want to go pretending to respect
somebody when I consider them the gook that adheres to the bottom of my
shoe. I'm a human being, I can choose who I respect. If I don't respect
somebody I have the perogative to be able to ignore them. Thats why I think
J & J are fundamentally wrong, ignoring each other is by far the best
course here, but I don't see why they have to respect each other or have it
forced upon them.
I am filled with a grudging admiration for J & J, their persistance is
admirable. I wish I had their tenacity.

In England we have a comprehensive school system, means if you can't afford
private your lumped in with the rest of humanity since this is supposed to
promote the misguided notion that as everybody is being taught the same
thing, you can throw a lot of people into the same melting pot and they
will get along nicely after that. Doesn't work in our schools, fail to see
why it would work on the list.



>I request that as list owner, because i want us to honour what is
>in the files that create Psyber-L, if that is not your wish then
>please write elsewhere.

Maybe you really meant to say..fuck off?

__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:33:09 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:56:29 +0100, you, Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>,
wrote:

>Dear Walter,
>
>This might be a case of too little too late. You can't suddenly decide at
>point x that your going to start playing the hard man when you've so far
>rested on your laurels and avoided all issues of confrontation (read flying
>cows) for a good example.
>
>Far be it from me to think that Joanne could be influenced by something I
>wrote, would that I had such power. Its like attributing the watching of
>Texas Chain saw massacre to the acts of every axe wield maniac.
>Joanne is quite capable of penning the words fuck off for herself. And good
>for her, if she wants to tell Julienne to Fuck off then she has every right
>to, even though the issue would be in my mind that if the two of them would
>just ignore each other then and mouth fuck off to each other silently.

I don't think I was influenced by your words to strike out.  I simply
had a "last straw" experience with the post I responded to.

[snip]

>A word cannot be offensive in my eyes or ears. It is merely a word. How can
>you be offended by a combination of 26 letters. Its the meaning that we put
>behind the word that is offencive. I could say bannana and make it sound
>like asshole. Words are beautiful things, each of them precious and with
>life of their own. The Intent behind the word is offensive, Never words.
>Each has its own place and time. Fuck off is a valid sentiment, to me its
>never an offensive word. I never knew a man that found the word Fuck
>offencive when combined with the words, I want you to come **** me and I
>want it now.. or any other variaton on the above theme.

Thank you.  I hear the same message from Julienne as I most recently
sent to her.  The words it is cloaked in do not change the message.

>>I request that even in the heat of this work, and even when
>>feeling provoked that we refrain from  attacking the person
>>rather than the ideas & statements.  That we refrain from name
>>calling.
>
>What work?? Back to the old labs and rats and mazes?

Or maybe flying cows and bananabeans, that can be stretched like silly
putty by having their meanings re-defined endlessly and to absurdity.

> I request that we search in ourselves for ways to
>>respect others even while angry and hurt.
>
>erm..why? They hate each other, why should they respect each other, respect
>has to be earned, why the hell do I want to go pretending to respect
>somebody when I consider them the gook that adheres to the bottom of my
>shoe. I'm a human being, I can choose who I respect. If I don't respect
>somebody I have the perogative to be able to ignore them. Thats why I think
>J & J are fundamentally wrong, ignoring each other is by far the best
>course here, but I don't see why they have to respect each other or have it
>forced upon them.

Thank you for understanding the whole problem.  I was starting to
think no one else could see what I've been saying.

>I am filled with a grudging admiration for J & J, their persistance is
>admirable. I wish I had their tenacity.

It's not always wonderful to have, but thank you.

>In England we have a comprehensive school system, means if you can't afford
>private your lumped in with the rest of humanity since this is supposed to
>promote the misguided notion that as everybody is being taught the same
>thing, you can throw a lot of people into the same melting pot and they
>will get along nicely after that. Doesn't work in our schools, fail to see
>why it would work on the list.

It doesn't, does it?

>>I request that as list owner, because i want us to honour what is
>>in the files that create Psyber-L, if that is not your wish then
>>please write elsewhere.
>
>Maybe you really meant to say..fuck off?

Gave me a great laugh.  Thanks Dolores.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:33:09 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:07:21 GMT, you, Walter Logeman
<walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>, wrote:

>I request that even in the heat of this work, and even when
>feeling provoked that we refrain from  attacking the person
>rather than the ideas & statements.  That we refrain from name
>calling.  I request that we search in ourselves for ways to
>respect others even while angry and hurt.
>
>I request that as list owner, because i want us to honour what is
>in the files that create Psyber-L, if that is not your wish then
>please write elsewhere.

Can I request, then, that Julienne do likewise?  Even if she dresses
up her personal attacks as poetry?

I'm sorry the others saw what I wrote.  I was very angry.  I should
not have sent the message to the list.  But the feelings are real.  I
am pushed to my limits hearing the same inaccurate things over and
over again.  It seems every post from Julienne has a dig in it for me.

-JoAnne, the wrong kind of poet

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:37:42 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <357e2439.130871532@mail.ihug.co.nz>
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At 01:07 PM 6/9/98 +0000, Walter wrote:

>You see that a picture is painted that is not accurate in the
>case of Mark / Void ... can you see that you paint pictures here
>of others which exclude the intentions they have?  And that you
>then perhaps have a part in provoking ...
>
>JoAnne
>In the following post:
>
>  Re:
>  Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:33:41 GMT
>
>wrote:
>
>> more than enough bullshit.  Shut the fuck up.  You asshole.
>
>
>Perhaps provoked by Julienne it that post or even in the earlier:
>
>
>Julienne
>In the following post:
>
>  Beyond hissing
>  Sun, 7 Jun 1998 15:14:29 -0400
>
>wrote:
>
>
>> Well - surprise. Now my subconscious is socking
>> me with this anger. And I just want to say "Fuck you!"
>> to any so-called malevolent god who thinks it's okay
>> to let people die, and to people on this list who think
>> it's okay to dump their shit on me and then say,
>> "Oh Dear - that's not nice of you to be angry with us
>> for ignoring your grief and letting JoAnne attack you
>> and - whatever".  So, yes - I'm mad at you and any
>> gods and whoever else gets in my way right now.
>
>~~~
>
>
>I think all of these posts go against the spirit of the welcome
>file, which states that ad hominem attacks are not welcome.
>These posts contribute to level of venom that goes against the
>work we are doing here.
>
>As list owner i can remove people and close the list.  It is
>certainly on my mind.
>
>What holds me back at this point is that all of this darkness has
>been seen as shadow, as strangely beautiful, as aspects of us
>all, as something to face, as something to learn from.  This
>attitude towards it is put forward by many in the list, and by
>the very people I have quoted above.  At the same time as I see
>this darkness I see the light in some of the dialogues, again
>including us all.  I have little difficulty in seeing the needs
>and intentions through offensive words.  There is also the very
>specific plan suggested by Charles to attend to this as a
>situation in a GBG, to which there has been a positive response
>... it does not seem the right time to simply use the del
>command.
>
>I request that even in the heat of this work, and even when
>feeling provoked that we refrain from  attacking the person
>rather than the ideas & statements.  That we refrain from name
>calling.  I request that we search in ourselves for ways to
>respect others even while angry and hurt.
>
>I request that as list owner, because i want us to honour what is
>in the files that create Psyber-L, if that is not your wish then
>please write elsewhere.

I think it is amazing that you step in now, Walter.  I also
think it is amazing that you step in way after where it all
began.  Why didn't you ask people to stop the ad hominem
attacks when they were first aimed at me? I have been in
agony over this for nearly a year - and now you wonder if *I*
provoked JoAnne? You have let JoAnne call me a liar all
this time. You corrected her at least once yourself - when
you checked to see if she or  I were telling the truth, and
you found I was.  And yet she has gone on unabated
accusing me of dishonesty and more all this time.

Better late than never to stop the ad hominem attacks, but
better not to stop them by blaming the one first attacked, and
attacked practically without surcease.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:35:44 -0700
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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Dlores writes,

>Dear Walter,
>
>This might be a case of too little too late. You can't suddenly decide at
>point x that your going to start playing the hard man when you've so far
>rested on your laurels and avoided all issues of confrontation (read flying
>cows) for a good example.

Is this true or a fantasy about a projection about Walter's powerlessness?

***

Sure he can decide to respond to what he feels "go(es) against the spirit
of the welcome file".

Walter states clearly: "As list owner i can remove people and close the
list. It is certainly on my mind." Do you think he is kidding, Dolores?

I would suspect Walter has learned from his experience and choices in the
past and might react very differently today.

I have no sense his decision to respond as he sees fit is ever *sudden*.
Walter has stated clearly:

>I request that even in the heat of this work, and even when
>feeling provoked that we refrain from  attacking the person
>rather than the ideas & statements.  That we refrain from name
>calling.  I request that we search in ourselves for ways to
>respect others even while angry and hurt.

Dolores what do you think would be the optimal response to this request?
What do you want your response to be?

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:07:01 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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At 01:07 PM 6/9/98 +0000, Walter wrote:

>What holds me back at this point is that all of this darkness has
>been seen as shadow, as strangely beautiful, as aspects of us
>all, as something to face, as something to learn from.  This
>attitude towards it is put forward by many in the list, and by
>the very people I have quoted above.

Walter,

A few more thoughts. I am going to take you on faith,
as really believing what you have written above. I share
some of your idealism, and it was for that reason that,
even after I had announced on this list that I did not want
to continue to discuss these issues with JoAnne, that I
saw no good coming of it as I had already tried many
approaches, including inviting JoAnne back on my list -
I accepted what I understood was your desire that there
be some closure or resolution to all this.

I now wish that I had held to my first resolution. Rather
than resolution, there is just escalation, and as I have
stated before, it doesn't matter who is right or wrong,
who is telling the truth or not - everyone involved becomes
tarred with the same brush and looks guilty.

I don't like to leave things unresolved, but I think this
has caused problems in my life, because it can leave]
one vulnerable to anyone who doesn't want a matter
fairly resolved. I am not just talking about JoAnne here -
just life in general. Perhaps it is sometimes a good idea
to say "Enough"! - and to let things be in their imperfect
state.

I think this is one of those things. I am continually
accused by JoAnne of the same things - despite the
fact that every time we check "facts" I am found to be
telling the truth. There are other agendas here - and
I am exhausted trying to work out what they might be.
If someone has one last idea, I'm willing to try it - but
I don't want to keep going through all this stress and
constant badgering. I'm sick of trying to handle it well -
and it's clear that I am not very good at handling it well.

So...let's end it one way or another.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:50:15 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:07:01 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>I think this is one of those things. I am continually
>accused by JoAnne of the same things - despite the
>fact that every time we check "facts" I am found to be
>telling the truth.

Nearly every post you make to psyberlist now has to include one of
these statements saying, essentially, you're right and I'm wrong.  You
just keep repeating it over and over and over and over and over,
without justification, without supporting evidence, filled with your
opinions and diagnoses.

We know already!  We know you think I'm a demon from hell sent to
torture you especially, boil you in oil, or whatever sick torture
you're imagining I'm imagining today.  You're not telling us anything
new here.

Furthermore, it doesn't convince me, I don't think it convinces anyone
else, and is irritating as hell.

>There are other agendas here - and
>I am exhausted trying to work out what they might be.
>If someone has one last idea, I'm willing to try it - but
>I don't want to keep going through all this stress and
>constant badgering. I'm sick of trying to handle it well -
>and it's clear that I am not very good at handling it well.
>
>So...let's end it one way or another.

What do you mean by ending it?  What would ending it mean to you?

I'll tell you what it would mean to me.  It would mean that you would
stop making these diagnoses and stop reciting your abbreviated edited
version of our "nonexistent" history and stop interpreting my words as
evidence of things you know nothing about.

Most of my recent posts have been asking you to stop with the opinions
and characterizations and diagnoses, or at least produce some kind of
evidence -- a smoking pitchfork, so to speak.

You ignore these posts and continue with your litany about me.  Just
stop, Julienne.

And if and when I say something to you about anything, you could try
not to take one thing and turn it into a pattern of sickness, evil or
vendetta on my part.  Maybe you could actually discuss things as they
are.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:13:33 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Anita's Ping-Pong: Games and Conflict Resolution
In-Reply-To:  <3580ae25.4930801@mail.ihug.co.nz>
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Hullo Walter,
> resolution via a game.
>
>This is an invitation to Julienne and JoAnne ... and they have
>both indicated a willingness to participate in a GBG.  Marvelous!
>I think this is a great opportunity.
>
>You  the relationship between Julienne and JoAnne as you suggest
>can be seen as the "crystallisation of a situation" ... real and
>
>I agree with all of that and so it is worth noting that even in
>focussing on one relationship we are, each of us looking at our
>own stuff, present before, during and after our connections with
>JoAnne and Julienne.

I think this is especially pertinent now in light of what Dolores
had to say yesterday - that "Void" was her boyfriend - not just
the neighborhood torturer. Susan has also mentioned (and I paraphrase,
so may not represent her accurately) that she has felt there are issues with
anger on this list before.

>Charles you mentioned some things off list, and that it was ok to
>respond here:
>
>You suggested doing this in a separate list and i like the idea
>of that too.  There is an opportunity to structure that for the
>purpose and i would like to join with you on that Charles.
>
>The idea of two boards one for the "protagonists" and one for the
>rest of us seems a good idea.  The "participants" board would
>assist us in "take responsibility for his or her input", as
>Julienne mentions above.
>
>I suggest that the games, without the discussions be posted to
>this list, and thus return something to the list and thus do not
>create an "abandonment" as the "DreamEvent" might have done.
>
>How does all that sound?

Walter, it depends.

I am dealing with so much right now in my life.
I am also in the process of packing up all my parents' things, and
moving - something very painful for me - as well as dealing with
putting my whole life back together after two years of pretty much
giving it all up for my parents. I am struggling just to maintain
and deal with what I must deal with.

I am not sure that I want to be isolated anywhere with JoAnne.
She represents a lot of pain to me - and I need to know more
about what is planned before I go ahead. In another year, maybe,
but right now I am afraid that I am expecting to be torn to shreds by
JoAnne, and unless there are safeguards against that, I am not
willing to undertake anything with her. If this is just going to be
a continuation of her accusations against me - no way. If there
are some protections involved - then maybe.


A list of just JoAnne and me would be pretty close to my version
of hell. My real version of hell would be neverending housework - and
even JoAnne would be better than that. :)

I also am concerned that it became "J&J", or "Julienne and JoAnne"
so quickly on this list - as though we were siamese twins. That's
an excellent way of distancing "us", encapsulating us as a problem,
and also a way to not bother looking at our individuality or what was
actually happening.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:24:25 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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At 08:50 PM 6/9/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:

>Nearly every post you make to psyberlist now has to include one of
>these statements saying, essentially, you're right and I'm wrong.  You
>just keep repeating it over and over and over and over and over,
>without justification, without supporting evidence, filled with your
>opinions and diagnoses.

JoAnne, I am on the defensive because you attacked me when I put my first
post on here.

>We know already!  We know you think I'm a demon from hell sent to
>torture you especially, boil you in oil, or whatever sick torture
>you're imagining I'm imagining today.  You're not telling us anything
>new here.

No, JoAnne - such dramatic exaggerations about yourself are your own
inventions -
presented to me, to Susan, to the whole list.

>>So...let's end it one way or another.

>What do you mean by ending it?  What would ending it mean to you?

It would mean your quitting your projections and accusations against me.
Period.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:18:24 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <19980609212452.CQKH27475@default>
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On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:24:25 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>>>So...let's end it one way or another.
>
>>What do you mean by ending it?  What would ending it mean to you?
>
>It would mean your quitting your projections and accusations against me.
>Period.

Then I may have a suggestion.

Let me know when I step over your lines, but do it simply.  Just make
your reply and write the single word "stop" after anything I write
that you consider to be a projection or accusation.  Follow only the
parts that you think are the projection or accusation with the word
stop, so there's no confusion.  For example:

>parts that you don't object to

your words as reply

>the part you object to here

stop

>other things that are okay

more of your reply

In return I will do the same, writing just the word "stop" directly
after anything you write that I think is a diagnosis or historical
distortion.

I don't think we have to make this too complicated.  If it's not
precisely and exactly projection or accusation but still a problem for
you, follow it with a "stop," and similarly if something you say is a
problem for me but doesn't fit my definition of diagnosis or
historical distortion exactly, I'll follow it with a "stop" anyway.

Then we will try to stop the things we ask each other to stop.  We
will not respond to the things we don't want to see except with the
"stop."  We won't even ask what it is about the thing that generates
the "stop."  We are probably smart enough to figure that out
ourselves.

What do you think?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:18:25 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Anita's Ping-Pong: Games and Conflict Resolution
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On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:13:33 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>A list of just JoAnne and me would be pretty close to my version
>of hell. My real version of hell would be neverending housework - and
>even JoAnne would be better than that. :)

I won't say I would always agree with the first part of that,
Julienne; with luck maybe that would change.  But the second part I
heartily agree with.

>I also am concerned that it became "J&J", or "Julienne and JoAnne"
>so quickly on this list - as though we were siamese twins. That's
>an excellent way of distancing "us", encapsulating us as a problem,
>and also a way to not bother looking at our individuality or what was
>actually happening.

Perhaps a Glass Bead Game would bring out something other than what
everyone has been trying to ignore, or make it so that people, even
you and I, can actually see JoAnne and Julienne.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:38:54 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Back Sheryl
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 98-06-08 16:28:31 EDT, you write:

<< Welcome back Sheryl,

 Have you been away for about  year?  I have taken to Welcoming
 people as they arrive ... it does not allow for a quiet move into
 the back as it were.

 I recall your dream as you left and drove on in the car ... I
 wonder what has bought you back?  I hope you find it a good place
 to be.
  >>

Thanks Walter :)  Yep, it's been about a year, with some things accomplished,
or resolved or something like that.  Thanks for reminding me of the car, too,
I realized how much of it I have done, and probably had to do, alone.

Well, from the brief time I've been back, it's surely an interesting place!

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:22:54 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: hold your horses
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Walter, Julienne, JoAnne, all:

Smart, appropriately cautious, cautiously positive posts about the games
idea from both JoAnne and Julienne.  Excellent.

*

Okay, hold your horses, everyone!

I haven't so much as described my games yet, nor said what I think it might
be interesting to try with them this time around.

What I'm proposing is that Walter sets up a separate list under the
PsyberNet umbrella for the purpose of using specially tailored versions of
my HipBone Games to explore clear conflicts between two parties, in the
presence of such other Psyber-L subscribers as accept an invitation to
join, and with a maximum membership of sixteen.

The list would thus have a readership of Walter, myself, and other Psyber-L
members at their individual discretion -- and I would also like to invite
the friend I quoted, Leon Levin, whose field of work is conflict resolution
and who has been exploring the use of my games in that context.

I have privately emailed Walter and Leon to invite their cooperation, and
both have expressed interest and a willingness to participate.

Please note that this proposal is not in and of itself *about* the conflict
between Julienne and Joanne.  It seems, however, that JoAnne and Julienne
do currently have a "clear conflict" between them -- albeit with
ramifications beyond themselves -- and they would be invited to participate
as "principals" in the first round of play.

In the event that Julienne and JoAnne choose not to accept this invitation,
my proposal for a "conflict exploration and resolution" list still stands.

*

Next post: Constraints

Best,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:59:54 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <357eafcd.872718@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:18 PM 6/9/98 +0000, you wrote:

>Then I may have a suggestion.
Let me know when I step over your lines, but do it simply.  Just make
>your reply and write the single word "stop" after anything I write
>that you consider to be a projection or accusation.  Follow only the
>parts that you think are the projection or accusation with the word
>stop, so there's no confusion.  For example:
>>parts that you don't object to
>your words as reply
>>the part you object to here
>stop
>>other things that are okay
>more of your reply
>In return I will do the same, writing just the word "stop" directly
>after anything you write that I think is a diagnosis or historical
>distortion.

>Then we will try to stop the things we ask each other to stop.  We
>will not respond to the things we don't want to see except with the
>"stop."  We won't even ask what it is about the thing that generates
>the "stop."  We are probably smart enough to figure that out
>ourselves.
>
>What do you think?

I think it's way too complicated. Whatever we're objecting to will
already have been said.

I think it's best if we just not mention each other or respond to each other
at all - unless we can do it without anything personal whatsoever.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:32:18 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: hold your horses
In-Reply-To:  <l03130302b1a3734199a7@[38.12.87.200]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:22 PM 6/9/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>What I'm proposing is that Walter sets up a separate list under the
>PsyberNet umbrella for the purpose of using specially tailored versions of
>my HipBone Games to explore clear conflicts between two parties, in the
>presence of such other Psyber-L subscribers as accept an invitation to
>join, and with a maximum membership of sixteen.
>
>The list would thus have a readership of Walter, myself, and other Psyber-L
>members at their individual discretion -- and I would also like to invite
>the friend I quoted, Leon Levin, whose field of work is conflict resolution
>and who has been exploring the use of my games in that context.
>
>I have privately emailed Walter and Leon to invite their cooperation, and
>both have expressed interest and a willingness to participate.
>
>Please note that this proposal is not in and of itself *about* the conflict
>between Julienne and Joanne.  It seems, however, that JoAnne and Julienne
>do currently have a "clear conflict" between them -- albeit with
>ramifications beyond themselves -- and they would be invited to participate
>as "principals" in the first round of play.
>
>In the event that Julienne and JoAnne choose not to accept this invitation,
>my proposal for a "conflict exploration and resolution" list still stands.

Geez, I feel like a guinea pig. :)

So far so good. I like that there will be someone there whose field
is conflict resolution.

I wish one of you understood astrology - it makes what's going on
so clear. However, whatever is going on, learning how to resolve
it can be a good thing. If it's posible - how does one resolve anything
with an axe murderer? (no - I'm not calling you one JoAnne...but to
me you almost as well might be...) - is it always a good idea to stop
and chat about things?

Oh well...

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:46:53 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: Constraints
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Constraints:

There would be a number of constraints in place, which would need to be
agreed in advance by all participants.  In this post, I discuss the
constraints of membership, duration, privacy and publication.

If you might be interested in participating in the proposed "Glass Bead
Game" on PsyberNet, please read the following closely.

List membership:

List membership should not exceed sixteen persons.  All members would agree
to participate actively by posting in the appropriate manner.

Membership would be for complete "game cycles" only.  All those who agreed
to join the list would agree not to leave until the "game cycle"
(definition below) reached closure.  Similarly, only those who accepted the
initial invitation would be able to participate: new members would not be
able to join until a particular "game cycle" was closed.

Game cycles:

A "game cycle" would begin with a two week period of introductions, the
setting forth of the list purpose, "rules of engagement", boards, answering
questions and other preparations.

A "principal game" would be played between two individual parties in
conflict ("the principals").  The principals would agree in advance to
follow the rules of play as posted, and as moderated by myself as "games
master" with advice from Walter as host and Leon as special consultant.
Games would be played at a rate of one move every three days until
complete: 10-move games would thus last roughly a month each, and since
these would be two-person games, neither party would be obliged to play
more than roughly once a week.

At the end of a principal game, the "game cycle" would be completed by a
two week period with no posts from either player, and a two week period of
discussion, summing up and closure.

At the end of a "game cycle", either of the principals could choose to
leave the list, to continue as observers, or offer to play another round.
There would be no time limit to the possible sequence of "game cycles",
though if both principals in one "game cycle" wished to continue together
as principals in the next, they would have the opportunity to do so.

Other participants:

The list would also be open for other participants to post comments on the
process explored on the list at any time, except during the two week "quiet
period" after a principle game.  Those not playing in the principal games
would be encouraged to make use of Game boards to formalize their own
comments and insights within the game structure: again, I would be
available as "game master" to moderate these games.

The principals in any current game would agree not to respond to activity
in the *non-principals section of the list* during the period of principal
gameplay -- so that their own energy would be focused into their own
principal game, and other participants would feel free to comment in their
own posts and games.

During the two week discussion and closure period at the end of a game
cycle, all participants would be invited to join in the discussions, on the
understanding that their purpose at that point is to facilitate Walter and
myself in editing and presenting the completed game(s) for posting to
Psyber-L.

Privacy and Publication:

As noted above, the list would be a private one -- in so far as the
technology permits such a thing -- and any list archives would be available
exclusively to the list's own members.

All members would agree not to quote any materials posted within the list,
outside of it, nor to show them to anyone aside from their own
whaddayacallem "significant other" -- and only then with an explicit
understanding that the materials go no further.

It would however be our group intention to post completed games -- though
not the surrounding discussions -- on Psyber-L.

It would also be our intention for Charles (as designer of the HipBone
Games) and Walter (as host of PsyberNet) to be able to present completed
games and materials describing the context and process of the list in
appropriate arenas for the discussion of the HipBone Games, the psychology
of conflict resolution, psyche and process on the Internet, etc.

Participants would therefore agree in advance that their game moves would
be available for these purposes.

Suitable editing might be necessary, however, since these "publication
versions" of the games would need to be coherent and sufficiently
contextualized to "make sense" to outside readers, and a major focus of the
"discussion, summary and closure" section of the "game cycle" would be to
allow the necessary editing and fine-tuning of these materials as
appropriate.

Changes:

Any changes in these constraints should be discussed by participants *on
the games list* during the "introductions and preparations" phase.

Next post: About the games themselves

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:53:29 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: About the Games themselves...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

What are the Games About?

The HipBone Games are games of association: they are games in which the
"moves" are ideas, placed in position on a predetermined "board" and linked
by the associations between them.  The boards consist of geometrically
arranged circles with specific lines connecting them.

Because the game rules and board structure mandate that certain ideas
should link to other ideas in adjacent positions, the gameplay involves
making and naming the associative links, sometimes with one's own ideas,
sometimes with ideas presented by the other player.  Because one has
complete control of what ideas one puts into play, but not of what links
the other player may make with them -- or what ideas the other player will
play that one will be obliged to link with -- there's a great deal of
"searching around" for associations in unexpected places as the game gets
under way.

And as Freud and Jung both noted, associations tend to reveal more than we
might otherwise conceal about "underlying psychic processes".

The rules of the game also mandate a certain "form" for posting each move
-- and this requirement in turn means that players can't go off on
pages-long harangues *within* the game, they have to distill the essence of
their moves in order to play them.  The game concentrates whatever emotion
and ideation goes into each move, with the result that there's both
*intensity* in the actual moves and a sort of *distancing* that permits and
encourages both parallels and oppositions, theses and antitheses -- and
even syntheses on occasion --  to be observed more clearly than in the give
and take of a less "structured" communication.

I'd be happy to clarify any questions about this post by private email or
on the proposed games list, during the setup period.

Next post:

Honesty, civility, outrage, safety

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:50:06 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mad Parts of Sane People

from the Chiron Clinical Series

                                                    and so
                                     upon these slippery slopes
                                  we slalom       in      and      out
                               up                 down             around
                                  red       blue         flagged poles
                                             that mark our list

                                        along our way there fly
                                    above our blurring shoulders
                                sparrow      raven       kookaburra
                                 birds of   hope   anger   laughter
                                             that mark our list

                                        are why I learn to love
                                    this list            J - weighted
                                because     in all its messy nature
                                  it strives   remaining free   to be
                                        so very much     alive

                                                                                       nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:12:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Constraints
In-Reply-To:  <l03130305b1a379931677@[38.12.87.200]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:46 PM 6/9/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>Constraints:
>
>There would be a number of constraints in place, which would need to be
>agreed in advance by all participants.  In this post, I discuss the
>constraints of membership, duration, privacy and publication.
>
>A "principal game" would be played between two individual parties in
>conflict ("the principals").  The principals would agree in advance to
>follow the rules of play as posted, and as moderated by myself as "games
>master" with advice from Walter as host and Leon as special consultant.
>Games would be played at a rate of one move every three days until
>complete: 10-move games would thus last roughly a month each, and since
>these would be two-person games, neither party would be obliged to play
>more than roughly once a week.

>During the two week discussion and closure period at the end of a game
>cycle, all participants would be invited to join in the discussions, on the
>understanding that their purpose at that point is to facilitate Walter and

>myself in editing and presenting the completed game(s) for posting to
>Psyber-L.
>
>Privacy and Publication:
>
>As noted above, the list would be a private one -- in so far as the
>technology permits such a thing -- and any list archives would be available
>exclusively to the list's own members.

>Changes:
>
>Any changes in these constraints should be discussed by participants *on
>the games list* during the "introductions and preparations" phase.

I am concerned about what exactly would be Walter's role, as I think
he has been too closely involved in how I feel about what has happened
on the list for me to feel comfortable with his participation without knowing
more about his role and input.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:00:10 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: Honesty, civility, outrage, safety:
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Honesty, civility, outrage, safety:

The Games on the proposed list would have an inbuilt structure which, as I
indicated in my previous post, would be likely both to intensify and to
mediate the conflict between principals.

Questions of outrage and safety, of honestry and civility, of netiquette
and etiquette are therefore crucial: and I think it's clear that the
principals in any game would naturally want some measure of agreement or
reassurance going into the process as to what would and wouldn't be
permitted.

The agreement I'd like to request is as follows:

That the game master be permitted by both parties to propose the "terms of
engagement" for a given game *in the privacy of the game list* during the
initial "intro and prep" phase.

My reasons for postponing discussion of this admittedly difficult issue
until then (and there) are these:

(i) getting the rules for honesty, civility, outrage and safety straight is
unlikely to be any *more* difficult or precarious than unresolved conflict
itself...

(ii) it's in the nature of a conflict that it can get pretty heated, and
the idea here is to provide a structure which doesn't defuse the heat but
formalizes and constraints it, channeling it in ways that reveal its
underlying "patterns"...

(iii) to the extent that the structure of the game list affords greater
privacy than Psyber-L with its public archives, and to the extent that the
game itself will afford the principals with a tightly structured
environment for their explorations as "play", I believe that all concerned
will feel freer to agree to the particular "terms of engagement" I propose
once we're *within* the game list itself.

That's asking a lot.  That's asking for a measure of cautious trust.

An example in my next post: *ad hominem* and games

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:01:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....

to robert:

      when i speak
 of what  can i speak
     save what i am
               ?
           nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:38:40 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Honesty, civility, outrage, safety:
In-Reply-To:  <l03130307b1a38ac723ca@[38.12.87.200]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:00 PM 6/9/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>Honesty, civility, outrage, safety:

Are there going to be any other women here besides JoAnne and myself?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:22:28 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Constraints
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julienne,

If you were given any choice who would you include or exclude from
participation in order to feel "safe"?  I think it is fair that you
express your concerns here before there is a rush to subscribe to this
Glass Bead Game.  I somehow have the feeling that your preceptions would
be considered and aid others in considering their possible role(s).

> I am concerned about what exactly would be Walter's role, as I think
> he has been too closely involved in how I feel about what has happened
> on the list for me to feel comfortable with his participation without knowing
> more about his role and input.

I think that his role is open.  He may be able to take a role as
technical adminsitrator to the games and/or he may take a role as a
non-principal participant.  As it stands right now, there is no
restriction on who from the PSYBER-L community may or may not
participate, this includes those who are normally the "lurkers" on the
list who might find this an appropriate manner in which to become
active.  These are just my thoughts and not gospel.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:23:42 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Honesty, civility, outrage, safety:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julienne

> Are there going to be any other women here besides JoAnne and myself?

That decision is made by the other women on the list.  What do you wish
to happen?

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:27:40 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Nancy

>       when i speak
>  of what  can i speak
>      save what i am
>                ?

It seems that this is an echo of my post to JUNG-PSYCH which has the
theme of "introductions":

"Since many are introducing themselves, I guess I should do the same.

I am Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpr=E9.

I am not to be confused with the roles, the personae that I use to
mediate between myself and the world.  The self is not a teacher, a
priest, a whatever.  The self just is ...

Now that I've stated that, what else is important?"

Nancy, these words are not as poetic, but they do have the same intent.
I will try to answer both my question and yours at some point in my life
here ... not so easy to do ... answer questions ...

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:51:46 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      reflections on space
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Simon,

With appologies in going silent just as you addressed me...however, healing
is a non linear process to say the least and illness is a hard taskmaster
which will not be ignored...however, your reflections on space was
synchronistic to say the least...it presaged a healing event of last
Saturday am...I have been feeling so held by everyone here and continue in
gratitude...
>Judith,
>
>Recently I picked up a book by Henri Lefebvre called 'The Production of
>Space' which looks to be rather fascinating. It's prefaced by a short poem
>from Octavio Paz (one of my favourite poets) which seems rather apposite
>for *this* particular space. Also, just dipping into the pages in search of
>serendipity, I soon happened across a quote which made me think of you.
>You've been on my mind anyway, so maybe some strange process (strange
>attractor?) led me to the quote.
>
>Anyway, for some reason I just wanted to put these together.
>
>I hope that your healing process is going well.
>
>with warm regards,
>
>Simon
>
>
>
>Envoi
>
>Imprisoned by four walls
>(to the North, the crystal of non-knowledge
>a landscape to be invented
>to the South, reflective memory
>to the East, the mirror
>to the West, stone and the song of silence)
>I wrote messages, but received no reply.
>
>Octavio Paz
>
The resonnance came to me while I was on my knees in prayer as the coughing
reached a cresendo and challenged me...i received replies from so many
people, you and everyone here answered...quite overwhelming...

>
>"Around the living organism, both those energies which it captures and
>those which threaten it are *mobile*: they are 'currents' or 'flows'. By
>contrast, in order to capture available energies the organism must have at
>its disposal apparatuses which are *stable*. It must respond to aggression
>with defensive actions, setting up boundaries around the body that it can
>maintain and protect.
>"The fact that a surplus of energy is accumulated before being discharged
>is thus a defining aspect of the very concept of the 'living body' and its
>relationship with its space - i.e. with itself, its vicinity, its
>surroundings, and the world at large.
> A productive squandering of energy is
>not a contradiction in terms: an expenditure of energy may be deemed
>'productive'  so long as some change, no matter how small, is thereby
>effected in the world. The concept of production is thus sharpened and
>revived without becoming so broad as to lose all meaning: we see that a
>game may qualify as a piece of work, or as a work in the strong sense of
>the word, while a space designed for playful activity may legitimately be
>deemed a *product* in that it is the outcome of an activity which regulates
>itself (lays down rules for itself) as it unfolds."
>
>(Henri Lefebvre, 'The Production of Space')
Simon, this excerpt is very descriptive of the experience I am having with
this illness and my body's energy system...I have to be very careful of my
energy expenditure. I found that my engagement here which has been so
meaningful to me   began to take its toll, and the "productive" began
requiring more energy than I could replenish...thus I was in a self
inflicted conflict to be present in this space with everyone while taking
care of body's requirement...

What was so astounding to me was how much support I was feeling
energetically from everyone in this space...certainly anecdotal evidence of
non linearity...
In gratitude,
Judith
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 22:52:16 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Robert-Missing message
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Robert,
Just as I was pulled to my healing and out of this space you sent me a
message and I've lost it somehow...I want to make sure you know my lack of
response was because of the loss and I feel badly that I am not able to
recover it so to respond...
As other's have said, having your poetry imbuing the space adds richness...

Warmly,
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:04:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:27:40 -0600, Robert Longpre  wrote:

>Nancy
>
>>       when i speak
>>  of what  can i speak
>>      save what i am
>>                ?
>
>It seems that this is an echo of my post to JUNG-PSYCH which has the
>theme of "introductions":
>
>"Since many are introducing themselves, I guess I should do the same.
>
>I am Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpr=E9.
>
>I am not to be confused with the roles, the personae that I use to
>mediate between myself and the world.  The self is not a teacher, a
>priest, a whatever.  The self just is ...
>
>Now that I've stated that, what else is important?"
>
>Nancy, these words are not as poetic, but they do have the same intent.
>I will try to answer both my question and yours at some point in my life
>here ... not so easy to do ... answer questions ...
>
>Robert
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>

a feral child
collects little persona
  i am as i present

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:09:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Honesty, civility, outrage, safety:
In-Reply-To:  <357DEE2E.653D@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:23 PM 6/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Julienne
>
>> Are there going to be any other women here besides JoAnne and myself?
>
>That decision is made by the other women on the list.  What do you wish
>to happen?
>
>Robert

Hi Robert,
I would hope it would not be all men.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:13:21 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Constraints
In-Reply-To:  <357DEDE3.111B@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 08:22 PM 6/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>If you were given any choice who would you include or exclude from
>participation in order to feel "safe"?  I think it is fair that you
>express your concerns here before there is a rush to subscribe to this
>Glass Bead Game.  I somehow have the feeling that your preceptions would
>be considered and aid others in considering their possible role(s).

I can't think of anyone I wouldn't want to have there.

>> I am concerned about what exactly would be Walter's role, as I think
>> he has been too closely involved in how I feel about what has happened
>> on the list for me to feel comfortable with his participation without
knowing
>> more about his role and input.

>I think that his role is open.  He may be able to take a role as
>technical adminsitrator to the games and/or he may take a role as a
>non-principal participant.  As it stands right now, there is no
>restriction on who from the PSYBER-L community may or may not
>participate, this includes those who are normally the "lurkers" on the
>list who might find this an appropriate manner in which to become
>active.  These are just my thoughts and not gospel.

Well...I don't know what else to say.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:47:30 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....

robert,

        defunct
      jung-psych?
  andrew samuels

       ~nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:03:55 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: hold your horses &c
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne, Robert, all:

Julienne wrote today in various responses to my various posts:

> Geez, I feel like a guinea pig. :)

This isn't a lab experiment -- and if you'll allow me the shift from New
Guinea to France -- more like free range in a forest with truffles,
Julienne.

> So far so good. I like that there will be someone there whose field
> is conflict resolution.

I've been on a list with Leon for a while, and he's mostly pretty quiet,
but I like what he writes when he does.

> I am concerned about what exactly would be Walter's role, as I
> think he has been too closely involved in how I feel about what
> has happened on the list for me to feel comfortable with his
> participation without knowing more about his role and input.

My own sense is that Walter would be involved (i) as host of the event, in
terms of "physically" providing the server, list, etc, (ii) as co-host in a
ceremonial sense, sharing responsibility for greeting people, working on
introductory documentation, etc, (iii) as advisor, someone I could trust
along with Leon to call me on things I might be missing as "games master",
and (iv) participant in the non-principal discussions and games along with
the rest of us.

Does that address your concerns?  Would you like Walter to say anything at
this point?

> Are there going to be any other women here besides JoAnne and
> myself?

As Robert very kindly said, that depends entirely on who asks to join the
list.  I certainly hope so, and would encourage you to encourage anyone
you'd particularly trust to join.  And the same goes for JoAnne, and those
whose comments and counsel she finds helpful.

Robert:

Thanks for your quick responses to Julienne's posts today: I've been
writing more or less non-stop for twelve hours now, almost all of it in
preparation for this games proposal, and really appreciate your seeing to
it that Julienne got quick and helpful responses.

Best to all,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:10:50 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Experiential learning.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks, Walter

>Wrote this about one week ago, then unable to send,
>
>
>
>Judith,
>
>In:  Re: Experiential learning.  Sat, 30 May 1998 you wrote:
>
>> .how is deriving our knowing from experience
>> different than participant observers...I suspect a use of terms here that
>> are different than how I use them..
>
>Perhaps.  I think of participant observer as someone who comes
>into a setting primarily to study it.  Even if they were already
>there, a participant observer goes away and writes an analysis
>for their "project".  They see themselves as having a unique role
>in the place.
Yes, it is as I suspected...in learning theory which includes experiencial
learning participant observer is used in a process sometimes called action
reflection learning where the participant takes action, reflects as an
observer on the action, and again as participant learns from the action
reflection, putting the participant once again into the cycle.

in acting the participant observer is at work where these are happening at
the same time...where there is always a little bird on one's shoulder
observing the participation...

>
>Sharing  learning as we go, we create an inner knowing.  It is
>surprising how much we know about this psychological work as a
>result of our being here ... I also think that we know in a way
>that we can use.

I am as always not in the psychological layer (which could ask the question
what am I doing here :-)...I understand rudiments, but most often I am
focused on the ideations and the process
>
>I would like to know how others have used knowing from this
>psyber-L as  they run other lists.  How the knowing from here
>compares other types of research.

Thanks for reminding me...I keep forgetting the context of your vision as
it relates to research...
>
>Being in Psyber-L with these  learning goals is different to
>being in one that is simply to do psychological explorations.  I
>suspect that some of the difficulties in Psyber-L arise because
>the ethos is not clear to everyone.

I'm not clear here on *psychological explorations* and why learning
wouldn't be a part of this...wow, I think I'm lost here...are you thinking
of the research model and the epistemilogical objective...so it's about
creating knowledge, not learning?  Me thinks I'm confused because of
context...
  The ethos here is complex.
>It is too easy to just delete a description file or a welcome
>file, and why not?  They are nearly all the same.  I downloaded
>about 50 of them to do some of the *other* type of research, and
>they are all fairly similar.  They state the topics and the
>request for polite civil discussion.
>
>
>Walter
>
Will need to savor this a bit to see if it clears itself up.
Thanks,
Judith
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:11:23 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Robert-Missing message
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith

There is no need to feel badly.  I would desperately like to in some way
help you move through the pain into a more gentle place.  I offer my
hopes, prayers, and my words to the healing energies that join with
those of others here.  Heal well.  You are loved well in this place, our
place.

> As other's have said, having your poetry imbuing the space adds richness...

If it does add richness, it is mixed with the richness of our community
as a whole, richer for having you within it.  A long time ago, when
Dolores was in pain I suggested that as a group we hold her in a healing
circle.  I am going to ask this again for you.

Together we stand beside you as you lay within our circle.  Feel our
presence. Take comfort in this sacred circle of caring, this place of
healing.  Gently, we join our hands under you forming a living bed with
our arms, our hands clasped.  Then to a music that touches you the
deepest, your music, we move your body in rhythm to the music.  Our
voices join in singing the words, your words.

This is a poor cousin to the reality that could be given in a
face-to-face healing circle.  But then, perhaps this combined energy can
navigate these cyberspace pathways to touch you.  Judith, be well.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:20:59 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Nancy

>         defunct
>       jung-psych?
>   andrew samuels

jung-psyc died -> jung-psy (Matthew Clapp)
jung-psy died -> jung-psych (Marshall Pahl)
and a bifurcation -> jung (Robert Longpre)
        a host of jungians
        a herd of jung-ologues
        a mass of jung-ologists
        a few who roam fractal universes

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 03:10:10 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Helen&PeterEvans <haven@JETLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
In-Reply-To:  <357E25CB.1BB5@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I have just deleted over 70 messages without reading them.  I saw the
thread and didn't want to be involved any longer.  I do know this is a list
about the psyche, but where the hell is compassion.   We're all human
beings, we're all fragile creatures, not something to be picked apart and
spread thin.  Let's start honoring each other.  Is right so mighty a thing.
 I am not at all diminishing hurt, but instead of taking the very simple 10
minute break it seems it's all escalated into frenzy.  No breathing time.
Privately this wouldn't happen, it would die it's own natural death, but
others feeding the monster keep it alive.

let's not feed the monster at anyone's expense, at anyone's hurt, please.

If you want to analyze a problem, let's go into a textbook case, let's not
ever diminish the nobility of any human being, please.

Helen

At 12:20 AM 10/06/98 -0600, Robert Longpre wrote:
>Nancy
>
>>         defunct
>>       jung-psych?
>>   andrew samuels
>
>jung-psyc died -> jung-psy (Matthew Clapp)
>jung-psy died -> jung-psych (Marshall Pahl)
>and a bifurcation -> jung (Robert Longpre)
>        a host of jungians
>        a herd of jung-ologues
>        a mass of jung-ologists
>        a few who roam fractal universes
>
>Robert
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:00:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         VarMan <VarMan@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG: hold your horses
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hold your ass and quit sending shit in my mailbox

Charles Cameron wrote:

> Walter, Julienne, JoAnne, all:
>
> Smart, appropriately cautious, cautiously positive posts about the games
> idea from both JoAnne and Julienne.  Excellent.
>
> *
>
> Okay, hold your horses, everyone!
>
> I haven't so much as described my games yet, nor said what I think it might
> be interesting to try with them this time around.
>
> What I'm proposing is that Walter sets up a separate list under the
> PsyberNet umbrella for the purpose of using specially tailored versions of
> my HipBone Games to explore clear conflicts between two parties, in the
> presence of such other Psyber-L subscribers as accept an invitation to
> join, and with a maximum membership of sixteen.
>
> The list would thus have a readership of Walter, myself, and other Psyber-L
> members at their individual discretion -- and I would also like to invite
> the friend I quoted, Leon Levin, whose field of work is conflict resolution
> and who has been exploring the use of my games in that context.
>
> I have privately emailed Walter and Leon to invite their cooperation, and
> both have expressed interest and a willingness to participate.
>
> Please note that this proposal is not in and of itself *about* the conflict
> between Julienne and Joanne.  It seems, however, that JoAnne and Julienne
> do currently have a "clear conflict" between them -- albeit with
> ramifications beyond themselves -- and they would be invited to participate
> as "principals" in the first round of play.
>
> In the event that Julienne and JoAnne choose not to accept this invitation,
> my proposal for a "conflict exploration and resolution" list still stands.
>
> *
>
> Next post: Constraints
>
> Best,
>
> --
> Charles
> Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
> *
> hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
> playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 06:58:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         VarMan <VarMan@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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<HTML>
quit <B>FUCKING </B>sending shit in my mailbox. this is it

<P>JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:07:01 -0400, you, Julienne
<BR>&lt;zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

<P>>I think this is one of those things. I am continually
<BR>>accused by JoAnne of the same things - despite the
<BR>>fact that every time we check "facts" I am found to be
<BR>>telling the truth.

<P>Nearly every post you make to psyberlist now has to include one of
<BR>these statements saying, essentially, you're right and I'm wrong.&nbsp;
You
<BR>just keep repeating it over and over and over and over and over,
<BR>without justification, without supporting evidence, filled with your
<BR>opinions and diagnoses.

<P>We know already!&nbsp; We know you think I'm a demon from hell sent
to
<BR>torture you especially, boil you in oil, or whatever sick torture
<BR>you're imagining I'm imagining today.&nbsp; You're not telling us anything
<BR>new here.

<P>Furthermore, it doesn't convince me, I don't think it convinces anyone
<BR>else, and is irritating as hell.

<P>>There are other agendas here - and
<BR>>I am exhausted trying to work out what they might be.
<BR>>If someone has one last idea, I'm willing to try it - but
<BR>>I don't want to keep going through all this stress and
<BR>>constant badgering. I'm sick of trying to handle it well -
<BR>>and it's clear that I am not very good at handling it well.
<BR>>
<BR>>So...let's end it one way or another.

<P>What do you mean by ending it?&nbsp; What would ending it mean to you?

<P>I'll tell you what it would mean to me.&nbsp; It would mean that you
would
<BR>stop making these diagnoses and stop reciting your abbreviated edited
<BR>version of our "nonexistent" history and stop interpreting my words
as
<BR>evidence of things you know nothing about.

<P>Most of my recent posts have been asking you to stop with the opinions
<BR>and characterizations and diagnoses, or at least produce some kind
of
<BR>evidence -- a smoking pitchfork, so to speak.

<P>You ignore these posts and continue with your litany about me.&nbsp;
Just
<BR>stop, Julienne.

<P>And if and when I say something to you about anything, you could try
<BR>not to take one thing and turn it into a pattern of sickness, evil
or
<BR>vendetta on my part.&nbsp; Maybe you could actually discuss things
as they
<BR>are.

<P>-JoAnne

<P>_______________________________________________________________
<BR>For list options &amp; how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
<BR>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM&nbsp;&nbsp; in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;</HTML>

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:01:32 -0400
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From:         VarMan <VarMan@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
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if we were the last one's i'd kill you

Nancy Smith wrote:

> to robert:
>
>       when i speak
>  of what  can i speak
>      save what i am
>                ?
>            nancy
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:02:13 -0400
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From:         VarMan <VarMan@IX.NETCOM.COM>
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lassie's coming

Robert Longpre wrote:

> Julienne
>
> > Are there going to be any other women here besides JoAnne and myself?
>
> That decision is made by the other women on the list.  What do you wish
> to happen?
>
> Robert
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:13:07 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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> del psyber-l VarMan@IX.NETCOM.COM

VarMan@IX.NETCOM.COM has been removed from the PSYBER-L list.
Notification has been sent.
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:50:33 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Taking care of Psyber business

It seems we have offended VarMan.  I simply by being.  Sorry...
  Thank you, Robert, for confirming my perceptions about the 'death' of Jung-psych.  Matthew Clapp lives just down the street from me.  Perhaps I can ask him about that list when next we meet.
  I have not received a  'digest' since June 6th, though the automated LIST says  I am still subscribed.  Can anyone enlighten me as to how this might occur?
  Good morning, Judith.  I'm just 'looking in upon you' to send my wishes that you might have a good day as the healing process continues for you.
             Nancy

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:26:14 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Anita's Ping-Pong: Games and Conflict Resolution
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Walter and Charles,

Walter you wrote
>I suggest that the games, without the discussions be posted to
>this list, and thus return something to the list and thus do not
>create an "abandonment" as the "DreamEvent" might have done.

I think you have brought up a key point for the list...I remember the
DreamEvent which I didn't engage and reflecting back on the aftermath I now
see that tho there were off line issues which were taking my focus, I lost
the connection to the people because a huge experience had happened which I
was not a part of and could sense change but it served as a bifracation
point for me...

So I want to amplify your caution...for the list integrity and personally
because I need to monitor my energy and I know the game will require an
engagement level beyond what I can devote at this moment...

I've finally caught up with all the posts I missed the week I was off
line...whew!

Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:51:49 -0400
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Robert,
Some clarifications...

>Judith
>
>There is no need to feel badly.  I would desperately like to in some way
>help you move through the pain into a more gentle place.
You are and everyone here is...yet I want to say I am not in ongoing
pain...it rises up out of the void as I grapple with the mystery of *not
knowing*...and I must be getting to the end of the tunnel because the
risings are less frequent...and in the words of Gibran "the deeper the
sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain..." for better
or for worse I do not resonnate to pain in the world...mine is with the
points of light...I often feel the intensity of your engagement with life
and I admire the courage of you and everyone who engages...I hold it as
transmutation...digesting the pain...I learned this first as a survival
strategy to cope with my empathicness, now it is a skill which takes me
thru each rising...plus I'm an tenacious as hell and will not give in to
it...in my world view I see this as initiation...but my lesson as my healer
'minded me yesterday wasis to open to the assistance, to let go of my "I
can do it myself" stance which I came into this reality with...it took a
lot of bringing me to my knees to open to the wonder of receiving...being
in a continuously giving posture I learned was a form of selfishness...I
got to give and feel the goodness in that...there is more to it than this
but this is the gist...

  I offer my
>hopes, prayers, and my words to the healing energies that join with
>those of others here.  Heal well.  You are loved well in this place, our
>place.
There are not words in me (the poet in on sabatical it seems:-) to express
how this space has held me in this last leg of my journey...I feel humbled
and of course gratitude but these words are inadequate...part of the lesson
has been to suspend me in feeling, shortcircuiting words...

Today I am feeling better...the coughing has subsided and I am gaining
strength...I know the prayers and kindnesses expressed here have been the
key to this time...the layers have been peeling away as I continue...and I
know there will be more...joy is emerging and a sense of expectation...it
resonnates to a song in West Side story..."somethings coming"...

>
>> As other's have said, having your poetry imbuing the space adds richness...
>
>If it does add richness, it is mixed with the richness of our community
>as a whole, richer for having you within it.  A long time ago, when
>Dolores was in pain I suggested that as a group we hold her in a healing
>circle.  I am going to ask this again for you.
>
>Together we stand beside you as you lay within our circle.  Feel our
>presence. Take comfort in this sacred circle of caring, this place of
>healing.  Gently, we join our hands under you forming a living bed with
>our arms, our hands clasped.  Then to a music that touches you the
>deepest, your music, we move your body in rhythm to the music.  Our
>voices join in singing the words, your words.

thank you for this beauty...it is the beauty of this earth experience that
I cherish and drink of every day...thank you for filling my cup...

>
>This is a poor cousin to the reality that could be given in a
>face-to-face healing circle.  But then, perhaps this combined energy can
>navigate these cyberspace pathways to touch you.  Judith, be well.
>
>Robert
>
And you also, Robert

Judith in the joy
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:14:25 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
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Helen,
Your emergying her reminds me that I neglected to thank you for the poetry
many moons ago...I saved it somewhere...

>I have just deleted over 70 messages without reading them.  I saw the
>thread and didn't want to be involved any longer.  I do know this is a list
>about the psyche, but where the hell is compassion.   We're all human
>beings, we're all fragile creatures, not something to be picked apart and
>spread thin.  Let's start honoring each other.  Is right so mighty a thing.

My thot is that *right* meaning *my right* equals *the right* is a deep
seated form of one's beingness...the issue then becomes one of the
assumption of right...what I see when I experience each person here is how
sometimes that person is asking to be seen, to have their experience
validated, to have their way of being validated...my natural way of being
is to see where someone is coming from...sort of having the universe's
diplomacy task...this is getting trickier and trickier as we globalize and
bring the complexities of all peoples into a space...of course we know it
is fear crystallized...and often it seems to me a simple need to be
acknowledged...so the screaming out continues each within the beingness of
me until I get to self acknowledgement, getting to that place of self
validation self acknowledgement...our US culture looks outside for
validation...I for one come from that place of honoring, but that is my
value system and my conscious intention...do unto others as your would have
others do unto you...because I believe that you get what you give in the
cycle of life and what use to be carried over into the next life is now
coming back faster and faster...sort of like a universal housekeeping
process of clearing the karma...

> I am not at all diminishing hurt, but instead of taking the very simple 10
>minute break it seems it's all escalated into frenzy.  No breathing time.
>Privately this wouldn't happen, it would die it's own natural death, but
>others feeding the monster keep it alive.

And what began thru individuals and controlled by them, at some critical
mass point, the *thing* created takes the power and the individuals become
pawns serving that which is created...In my realm we speak of manatu's
which are energy structures or in Rupert Sheldrake's term morphogenic
fields...reminds me of the OJ thing in LA...
>
>let's not feed the monster at anyone's expense, at anyone's hurt, please.
>
>If you want to analyze a problem, let's go into a textbook case, let's not
>ever diminish the nobility of any human being, please.

*Nobility*, that's the word I have been needing...
>
>Helen
>
Thank you for your voice
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:47:29 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: dialogue of intentions
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Simon and hoon,
"listening" in as it were...

Simon you responded to Hoon,
>I agree with what you're saying here. This seems a crucial issue, how to
>get beyond the 'stuckness'. To me it seems necessary that a facilitating
>environment is created, one that doesn't collapse the possibility of
>someone 'opening out' from justification to questioning (or from whatever
>to whatever).
>
>You say "it is not movement purchased most easily through the questioning
>of other person's justification(s)", but what to do when the
>justification-behaviour of  the other person or other people entails
>exactly that collapsing-of-possibility that needs to be overcome??
>
>What if you feel boxed in, want to get out, don't know how to get out on
>other people's terms - but can't get out by yourself? Sheesh! A conundrum,
>think you (k)not?

Yes, Simon, the Chinese knot...how to get beyond the "stuckness" thru
creating what you call a facilitating environment...IMHO one can only
unstuck oneself...and the degree of stuckness is an indication of the depth
of the lesson...if one looks at one's stuckness as a result of someone
else's choices, this is giving away one's power...being able to stand in
*self* and hold that space...to have a way of being rooted from within...

Yesterday I had a life changing experience...met a Sculpture, a truly
synchronistic moment, whose artist's statement begins
"My work in fresco is a bridge to an early self. I have memories of secret
marks in wet plaster, scaffolding and walls too high, rhythmic sounds from
a hawk and a trowel, and of men working on surfaces to define flat and
true. I have those memories, my father's tools, and the need to go beyond
the surface."

Where there is no *need* to go beyond the surface,it seems to me one
remains stuck...the *way out* is to *go in*...The Sculpture concludes

"My bas-relief frescoes explore man's passion for creation and destruction.
By effacing the fresco's surface to reveal its anatomy, the duality of man
is exposed in layered events. These events parallel natural energy forces
that cause architectural changes in mass and create visual images of
time...In time man will also change. Perhaps we can evolve beyond the need
to self-destruct and achieve our real possibilities. I can only contemplate
this event and know that self-discovery and art are part of the process."
>
>
>Simon
>
Judith suspended in inspiration...

>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:56:59 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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Hoon,

And the truth :-) of the matter is the breathtakingly mindboggling
assumption that what one is seeing is all there is to see...I don't usually
truck in absolutes, but that underlying assumption is a crock and
absolutely the heights of conceit, which IMO is Western European Thought in
full regalia...whew!

And yes to what you said :-)

Judith returning to breathing

>>Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:49:17 +0100
>>From: "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: Truth
>
>>Truth itself, I would suggest, stands apart from all perspective and
>>motive. Perhaps it can only ever be experienced, never conveyed.
>
>Of course, it cannot do this. Even experience 'perspects' its subjects.
>Which is a bit of a conundrum whether one traffics in objective truths or
>mystical apprehensions! Or some perspective in-between or outside of those
>perspectives.
>
>"Even the measuring device is measured." Truth is a shell game, then.
>
>***
>
>Truth is also one of most loaded words in the English language. (Probably
>in most other languages too...I, for one, would like to know about
>foreign-to-me languages which gradiate truth into many other words.)
>
>We put up with someone delivering to us "the honest truth", or people
>stating, ' "I'm about the truth!" without *any* qualification'.
>
>***
>
>Which truth are you speaking of?
>
>Oh, the logical truth.
>
>Which logic are you speaking of?
>
>Oh, the 2 value logic.
>
>Do you know it *well*?
>
>***
>
>It would be easy to stop at the 2 value logic and deductive arguement and
>value truth only as far it represents a valid conclusion following from
>valid premises; (an arguement which cannot proceed to valid conclusions
>unless its premises are valid.)
>
>Unfortunately, the mind doesn't seem to work naturally that way, nor does
>the logical anatomy of most interpersonal discourse, when it is reduced to
>its constituent assertions and what those atomized assertions indicate,
>reveal the process of thought 'behind' the assertions. (Viewed this way, it
>might be hypothesized: the human cognitive predisposition naturally favors
>invalid premises. <g>)
>
>(We note in the rarest of instances hyper-critical thinking which, in an
>agonizing-to-our-sloppier, beautiful cognition, is exactingly and formally
>consistent. But, there has to be extremely rigorous 'starting' conditions
>applied for this to happen. At the same time, an entirely logical arguement
>or discourse may eventuate but still not be correlated with similarly
>logical cognition. Great breakthroughs in mathematics, chemistry, physics,
>have often followed intuitions, even dreams, and only then been made into a
>consistent arguement.
>
>Most interpersonal relating is so far outside the cone of this kind of
>discourse, that to appeal to, or represent some sort of rigorous
>truthmaking as the principal reality of such interpersonal discourses is
>an, ironically, illogical reduction. Might we allow the following premise
>"interpersonal discourse is messy, complex" to be 'true'?)
>
>Our thought processes may be reduced to a logical anatomy but the logical
>anatomy does not reveal how it is a 'mind' (ha, a brain!) cognitively
>generates discourse. The reduction leaves out most of what is interesting
>about the generation of discourse, of course. <g>
>
>So it is, that an appeal to truth based on this reduction, is itself a
>limited truth; i.e. it isn't the whole, or 'wholistic' truth. Furthermore,
>the 'whole' truth probably does not follow from simple, true/false logics,
>and may encompass elements of other logics. Example: the logics of the
>reasoningdrama, that are subjective and represent our own 'rules' which are
>only validated by our individual propensity to be attached to them, to have
>our awareness and or behavior driven to some lesser or greater extent by
>these kinds of rules.
>
>***
>
>Truth then: one view is it stands outside of all but the logic which
>justifies it 'best' (and the shell game wherein 'best' is further
>justified...), another view is truth organized around questioning in it's
>reasoningdrama gap; truth neither wholistic or closed off "into its own
>logic".
>
>There is critical thinking that atomizes and finds value in the reduction
>to assertions and explication of their validity and then there is critical
>thinking which stands humbled before the complexity and colliding logics of
>our discourse. In the latter case even two half truths cannot add up to the
>whole truth.
>
>***
>
>first person: God speaks to me!
>
>second person: I do not!
>
>***
>
>braying and praying,
>
>HooN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Expert novices continually suspend what they know in order to discover what
>they don't know. When you think like a genius, you often work outside your
>expertise -looking beyond the knowledge you've acquired or the concepts
>you've created. You're continually walking to the edge of your expertise.
>When you think like a genius, you naturally makes waves. -Todd Siler
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:12:30 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>>Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:49:17 +0100
>>From: "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: Truth
>
>>Truth itself, I would suggest, stands apart from all perspective and
>>motive. Perhaps it can only ever be experienced, never conveyed.

Simon,
Pardon this but I seem to have regained a bit of indignation...must be a
healthy sign cause indignation takes a lot of energy...

Truth "itself" seems to imply an object standing alone unconnected ...great
for Newtonian times when I would suggest the Western world was reeling from
the news that the earth wasn't the center of the universe...we have come a
long way and our current science cannot deny the interrelatedness of the
world...the feminine has known this that there is no objectivity meaning
anything separate from anything else...and Bell was surprised with the
particle and wave...non locality shook that world...Give me a person that
feels there is an objective world, that anything stands aloneapart and I
will give you a deeply alienated person...everything is connected (now
there's a truth :-) and thus I would with my limping logic suggest that
truth can never stand apart from all perspective and motive...As Ken Wilbur
puts it *turtles up turtles down*...

Sorry for my outburst but sometimes I just can't help myself and yes I
agree  "Perhaps it can only ever be experienced, never conveyed." And yes I
have experienced the *truth* of the web of life, it is coded in my DNA, it
is from where I as a female emerged...

As always in deep regard,
Judith
>
>Of course, it cannot do this. Even experience 'perspects' its subjects.
>Which is a bit of a conundrum whether one traffics in objective truths or
>mystical apprehensions! Or some perspective in-between or outside of those
>perspectives.
>
>"Even the measuring device is measured." Truth is a shell game, then.
>
>***
>
>Truth is also one of most loaded words in the English language. (Probably
>in most other languages too...I, for one, would like to know about
>foreign-to-me languages which gradiate truth into many other words.)
>
>We put up with someone delivering to us "the honest truth", or people
>stating, ' "I'm about the truth!" without *any* qualification'.
>
>***
>
>Which truth are you speaking of?
>
>Oh, the logical truth.
>
>Which logic are you speaking of?
>
>Oh, the 2 value logic.
>
>Do you know it *well*?
>
>***
>
>It would be easy to stop at the 2 value logic and deductive arguement and
>value truth only as far it represents a valid conclusion following from
>valid premises; (an arguement which cannot proceed to valid conclusions
>unless its premises are valid.)
>
>Unfortunately, the mind doesn't seem to work naturally that way, nor does
>the logical anatomy of most interpersonal discourse, when it is reduced to
>its constituent assertions and what those atomized assertions indicate,
>reveal the process of thought 'behind' the assertions. (Viewed this way, it
>might be hypothesized: the human cognitive predisposition naturally favors
>invalid premises. <g>)
>
>(We note in the rarest of instances hyper-critical thinking which, in an
>agonizing-to-our-sloppier, beautiful cognition, is exactingly and formally
>consistent. But, there has to be extremely rigorous 'starting' conditions
>applied for this to happen. At the same time, an entirely logical arguement
>or discourse may eventuate but still not be correlated with similarly
>logical cognition. Great breakthroughs in mathematics, chemistry, physics,
>have often followed intuitions, even dreams, and only then been made into a
>consistent arguement.
>
>Most interpersonal relating is so far outside the cone of this kind of
>discourse, that to appeal to, or represent some sort of rigorous
>truthmaking as the principal reality of such interpersonal discourses is
>an, ironically, illogical reduction. Might we allow the following premise
>"interpersonal discourse is messy, complex" to be 'true'?)
>
>Our thought processes may be reduced to a logical anatomy but the logical
>anatomy does not reveal how it is a 'mind' (ha, a brain!) cognitively
>generates discourse. The reduction leaves out most of what is interesting
>about the generation of discourse, of course. <g>
>
>So it is, that an appeal to truth based on this reduction, is itself a
>limited truth; i.e. it isn't the whole, or 'wholistic' truth. Furthermore,
>the 'whole' truth probably does not follow from simple, true/false logics,
>and may encompass elements of other logics. Example: the logics of the
>reasoningdrama, that are subjective and represent our own 'rules' which are
>only validated by our individual propensity to be attached to them, to have
>our awareness and or behavior driven to some lesser or greater extent by
>these kinds of rules.
>
>***
>
>Truth then: one view is it stands outside of all but the logic which
>justifies it 'best' (and the shell game wherein 'best' is further
>justified...), another view is truth organized around questioning in it's
>reasoningdrama gap; truth neither wholistic or closed off "into its own
>logic".
>
>There is critical thinking that atomizes and finds value in the reduction
>to assertions and explication of their validity and then there is critical
>thinking which stands humbled before the complexity and colliding logics of
>our discourse. In the latter case even two half truths cannot add up to the
>whole truth.
>
>***
>
>first person: God speaks to me!
>
>second person: I do not!
>
>***
>
>braying and praying,
>
>HooN
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Expert novices continually suspend what they know in order to discover what
>they don't know. When you think like a genius, you often work outside your
>expertise -looking beyond the knowledge you've acquired or the concepts
>you've created. You're continually walking to the edge of your expertise.
>When you think like a genius, you naturally makes waves. -Todd Siler
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:29:20 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      a baby rant
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Hi all,

I'm having a new set of trials added to my life.  Just as I approach the
end of my sick leave/sabbatical for mental health, there are many events
at my place of work which are discouraging me, events concerning my son
who is spending his last weeks at the school, and my adoptive Mexican
son-for-the-year.  Without going into details, it appears that there has
been significant abuse, physical, mental, and emotional, by the school
administration upon these sons of mine.  I have a problem dealing with
this as there is little information given to my wife who is on the spot
while I am removed to Calgary.  I have contacted the Director of
Education and have heard nothing in reply.  I have also asked for a
transfer to another school but do not anticipate that this request will
be met.  There is so much left out of this, but I don't want to get into
a "he said - she said" monologue.

losing energy and angry

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:29:26 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Anita's Ping-Pong: Games and Conflict Resolution
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Judith, Walter, and Charles,

I have been thinking about this PPG.  The value of seeing and being
party to an activity of "conflict resolution" excites me as there are
fields of conflict that I find myself involved in (no surprise).
However, I don't know if I have the energy for it AND for maintaining a
presence in PSYBER-L and other cyber-places that have meaning.  Judith
says:

> So I want to amplify your caution...for the list integrity and personally
> because I need to monitor my energy and I know the game will require an
> engagement level beyond what I can devote at this moment...

And I wonder if this is the same for myself, OR if I am trying to
rationalize why I should not take part.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 07:57:37 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: *ad hominem* and games
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*ad hominem* name calling and games:

So that you understand a little more what I'm working towards before asking
for your trust, I'd like to speak a little more specifically about "ad
hominem" remarks and name calling.

Name calling isn't pretty, and Psyber-L netiquette explicitly frowns on ad
hominem remarks.  Would my "rules of engagement" specifically forbid name
calling?

When Walter posted his "ad hominem" post yesterday, I thought about the
phrase "a symmetry of name calling" which I'd used a few days back.  What
struck me was that *within the tight confines of the game*, one way to go
might be to *essentialize* the name calling, to use two "names called" as
the opening moves, and see how we could work across the board from there,
in much the same way Leon Levin described re the Palestinians and Israelis:

::  What if Israelis and Palestinians were to place their positions at
::  opposite sides of the board and work their way across, making
::  connections, looking for the common ground, literally, in this
::  dispute, the commonality of visions?  It is through vision, the
::  values or interests, that most conflicts are resolved.

We could have a game where the principals each played their maximal
imprecations at opposite ends of the board -- and then had to "separate
out" the associative strands connecting with the imprecations and work
towards a confluence (perhaps still hissing wildly) along the center line
of the board.

This would separate the "names" themselves from all the details of the
*why* and *wherefore* that called them into place.

The effort at all times would be to *contain* the conflict within the
formal requirements of the game and board, so that it became *stylized* --
still having its affect, it's full emotional charge, but at the same time
being visible as a *game*, as a pattern, as a play.

As I understand it, Chess was originally invented when a Raja Balhait asked
one of his Brahmins to propose a game which would oppose the fatalistic
element of *chance* that was popular in dice-games such as backgammon, and
exemplify the virtues of diligence, foresight, prudence, and wisdom.  Our
games would be in a similar spirit.

Next post: sample "ad hominem" moves and other possibilities

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:30:16 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: Sample ad hominem moves and other possibilities
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Sample ad hominem moves and other possibilities:

Thus, Julienne asked today:

> how does one resolve anything with an axe murderer?

Maybe, Julienne, by placing "axe murderer" in position 5 on a WaterBird
board, and needing to associate it -- with Lizzie Borden? with "Texas
Chainsaw Massacre"? with felling trees? -- in such a way that the idea you
asociated with it *also* linked with JoAnne having maybe played "Silence of
the Lambs" as a link to *her* imprecation?

[As I say, this is just an example: and of course one which reveals my own
way of thinking, my own associations: and since I'm not working with a
psychic content that calls names like "cannibal" or "axe murderer" we don't
get the psychic impact thing going the way we would it it was *my* buttons
we were pushing <grin>.]

So that you might decide to play "felling trees" because, after all, "if a
tree falls in the forest when nobody's there to hear it..." -- which ties
in with the eerie silence in "Silence of the Lambs"?

All this in an increasingly complex weave of cross-linkages -- complex
enough that as you both approach the center of the board, I can pretty much
*promise* that your creativity and ingenuity will be taxed to the max as
you each come up with your next move?

*

I'm not saying that's the game formula I'll actually propose.

I'm trying to say that I'd like to be free to propose a mechanism that both
*allows* the negativity and *contains* it.  Maybe instead we'd play a game
where each of you had to mirror the other's moves, or each of you played a
move and the other one had to claim the links as she saw them, whatever...
I'm thinking about a dozen different "rules of engagement" possibilities:
but what all of them have in common would be the desire to *let the pattern
emerge* within the conflict, to make a sort of quasi music in which
*dissonance* has its part and the *resolution* of dissonance fairly begs to
bring things to a conclusion.

I think we can manage something along those lines *on the board* and with
the constraints that that implies -- and by now I may have scared one or
both of you out of the attempt, or perhaps made enough quirky sense for
that cautious trust and curiosity to propel you forward...

Because a certain amount of trust -- in the constraints of the game, in
myself as "game master", in the ability of the unconscious to nudge us
onwards, above all in the possibility of a controlled and deliberate
attempt at *playing* the conflict in a contained micro-territory and *in
search of a resolution* -- would certainly be called for.

*

So one of the things about the set up would be that we'd agree to *isolate*
the conflict not just on the game list, but "into" the game itself.  Thus
I'd ask that neither of the principals posted any responses to or mentions
of the other principal outside the game list for the duration of the
principal game and wrap up period, and that would be a precondition of
play.

Think Russian dolls: the idea is to get the conflict into tiny, powerful,
symbolic "moves" -- within a game which contains and processes and shields
them, within a list for that game which contains the containment -- and
*nowhere* else, for a period of about a month and a half.

Next post: decision time


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:30:51 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: Decision time
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Decision time:

Okay.  I don't know whether what I've proposed would "work" -- ie whether a
couple months from now the principals would be able to say that they'd come
a little closer to understanding and respect -- but I think it's worth a
shot.

Making sure that Psyber-L was not "fragmented" by the presence of another
list would be a very important consideration -- but it's one I think we
must certainly face if Walter's PsyberNet project is to develop to the
point where Psyber-L is a "foyer" with other, often more private / more
intense, "e-spaces" branching off from it for specific explorations of
aspects of psyche in cyberspace...  Making sure that such a fragmentation
doesn't happen would be an important part of the detailing of the "rules of
engagement" in the initial "set up" phase.

We could also continue to discuss other details -- but my own feeling is
that it's time to decide whether we want to do the thing itself -- and that
we should likewise handle these other details during the setup phase, and
not bother Psyber-L as a whole with them.

So now, a question for Julienne and JoAnne:

Would you each be willing (i) to bring your conflict into this
micro-situation of the game-list as described, (ii) in an attempt at
structured resolution, (iii) with no doubt cautious but serious good-will
towards that *possibility* of resolution -- ie a willingness to give it
your very best shot -- (iv) and to abide by the constraints of the game and
the list?

If "yes", I'll prepare an invitation.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:05:26 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG: hold your horses
In-Reply-To:  <l03130302b1a3734199a7@[38.12.87.200]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hello Charles,

All this sounds very interesting, though I'm not sure that 'conflict
resolution' and 'game' go together very readily.

What would you say are the key features, or dynamics, that would, in your
experience, prevent the GBG as you formulate it from simply being a case of
throwing the lions to the lions while the Romans watch from the spectator's
gallery?

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:04:15 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: reflections on space
In-Reply-To:  <v01550101b1a34de05fa2@[207.54.181.21]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Simon,
>
>With appologies in going silent just as you addressed me...however, healing
>is a non linear process to say the least and illness is a hard taskmaster
>which will not be ignored...however, your reflections on space was
>synchronistic to say the least...it presaged a healing event of last
>Saturday am...I have been feeling so held by everyone here and continue in
>gratitude...
>>Judith,

Judith,

It's good to hear from you, and to see that you're able to be present here
through your words once again - valued, as always...

The spirit can remain strong even when the body is weakened. I feel your
strong spirit.

Judith, I'm glad that the poem and quote had meaning and value for you.
Found objects at a found time, found by what means? I intuited a need to
send them to you, and within the list aura of psyber-l.

Someone once wrote on another list:

"If I am to speak at all, I must speak the truth."

To which I replied:

"You need only speak your own truth at the time you need to speak it."

To which someone else then responded:

"provided only that "the time" told you the truth, possibly..."

wonderful!

maybe "the time" always tells us the truth of the moment, but "sometimes"
we're deaf to it! (maybe most times!)


>The resonnance came to me while I was on my knees in prayer as the coughing
>reached a cresendo and challenged me...i received replies from so many
>people, you and everyone here answered...quite overwhelming...

resonance = true personal meaning found? an interesting equation...

anyway, your vivid description here resonates with me, speaking of messages
from the body that need(s) to be (at)tended to...


>Simon, this excerpt is very descriptive of the experience I am having with
>this illness and my body's energy system...I have to be very careful of my
>energy expenditure. I found that my engagement here which has been so
>meaningful to me   began to take its toll, and the "productive" began
>requiring more energy than I could replenish...thus I was in a self
>inflicted conflict to be present in this space with everyone while taking
>care of body's requirement...

The decision needing to be made, then, is on how best to value yourself
within a given circumstance...


>What was so astounding to me was how much support I was feeling
>energetically from everyone in this space

I am so glad this was how it was for you, Judith. May it continue to be so...


>certainly anecdotal evidence of
>non linearity...
>In gratitude,
>Judith

Have you come across the book 'Wholeness and the Implicate Order' by the
(now sadly, late) physicist and philosopher David Bohm? I think you would
find it interesting. I'm finding my way back to his work at the moment,
thanks to the talk on this list about dialogue. He also wrote a book called
'On Dialogue', and there's the book 'Unfolding Meaning: A Weekend of
Dialogue with David Bohm' which explores his ideas further, and also his
published dialogues with Krishnamurti, who was an influence on his thinking.


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 12:54:18 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: hold your horses
In-Reply-To:  <v03110703b1a43c9748e7@[195.200.13.37]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 05:05 PM 6/10/98 +0100, Simon wrote:
>Hello Charles,
>
>All this sounds very interesting, though I'm not sure that 'conflict
>resolution' and 'game' go together very readily.
>
>What would you say are the key features, or dynamics, that would, in your
>experience, prevent the GBG as you formulate it from simply being a case of
>throwing the lions to the lions while the Romans watch from the spectator's
>gallery?

Hullo Simon,

I have voiced this concern before. If the same people would be playing the
game as
have been here on this list while I have undergone what I see as an unfair
ordeal, why
would anything be different in the game? As Walter is listowner, isn't
putting him in an
authoritative position in the game really questionable? Walter has been
angry at me
a number of times, including just this past week, and so I am concerned
about his
participation.

I am not opposed to doing this, but I am concerned about the above issues.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:23:34 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: a baby rant
In-Reply-To:  <357EA650.1C60@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Robert,

At 09:29 AM 6/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I'm having a new set of trials added to my life.  Just as I approach the
>end of my sick leave/sabbatical for mental health, there are many events
>at my place of work which are discouraging me, events concerning my son
>who is spending his last weeks at the school, and my adoptive Mexican
>son-for-the-year.  Without going into details, it appears that there has
>been significant abuse, physical, mental, and emotional, by the school
>administration upon these sons of mine.  I have a problem dealing with
>this as there is little information given to my wife who is on the spot
>while I am removed to Calgary.  I have contacted the Director of
>Education and have heard nothing in reply.  I have also asked for a
>transfer to another school but do not anticipate that this request will
>be met.  There is so much left out of this, but I don't want to get into
>a "he said - she said" monologue.
>
>losing energy and angry

Robert, my offer to help still stands.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:12:36 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980609185716.010661f0@postoffice.att.net>
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On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:59:54 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 10:18 PM 6/9/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>Then I may have a suggestion.
>Let me know when I step over your lines, but do it simply.  Just make
>>your reply and write the single word "stop" after anything I write
>>that you consider to be a projection or accusation.  Follow only the
>>parts that you think are the projection or accusation with the word
>>stop, so there's no confusion.  For example:
>>>parts that you don't object to
>>your words as reply
>>>the part you object to here
>>stop
>>>other things that are okay
>>more of your reply
>>In return I will do the same, writing just the word "stop" directly
>>after anything you write that I think is a diagnosis or historical
>>distortion.
>
>>Then we will try to stop the things we ask each other to stop.  We
>>will not respond to the things we don't want to see except with the
>>"stop."  We won't even ask what it is about the thing that generates
>>the "stop."  We are probably smart enough to figure that out
>>ourselves.
>>
>>What do you think?
>
>I think it's way too complicated. Whatever we're objecting to will
>already have been said.

And you don't think it will ever be said again?

I don't think it's complicated at all; I don't understand why you do.
It only requires restraint when responding to something we don't like,
and restraint in not saying that again, without subjecting everyone
else on the list to long exchanges about why.

>I think it's best if we just not mention each other or respond to each other
>at all - unless we can do it without anything personal whatsoever.

And be on the same list?

I don't think that will last.  How long before someone says something
referring to our history?  How long before the urge to "set things
straight" comes out?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:12:39 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: hold your horses
In-Reply-To:  <19980609233225.EQCH27475@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:32:18 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>Geez, I feel like a guinea pig. :)

Me too.

>So far so good. I like that there will be someone there whose field
>is conflict resolution.

That is also a good sign to me.

>I wish one of you understood astrology - it makes what's going on
>so clear.

I think that it can be understood even without that particular
paradigm.

>However, whatever is going on, learning how to resolve
>it can be a good thing. If it's posible - how does one resolve anything
>with an axe murderer? (no - I'm not calling you one JoAnne...but to
>me you almost as well might be...) -

Thanks for being clear.  That was a helpful clarification.

>is it always a good idea to stop
>and chat about things?

Don't know that not stopping has worked...

>Oh well...
>
>Julienne

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:12:42 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
In-Reply-To:  <v0155010bb1a41642b084@[207.54.181.21]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Judith.  I'm glad to see you back!

On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:12:30 -0400, you, Judith Buerkel
<judithb@APK.NET>, wrote:

>>>Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:49:17 +0100
>>>From: "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>>>Subject:      Re: Truth
>>
>>>Truth itself, I would suggest, stands apart from all perspective and
>>>motive. Perhaps it can only ever be experienced, never conveyed.
>
>Simon,
>Pardon this but I seem to have regained a bit of indignation...must be a
>healthy sign cause indignation takes a lot of energy...
>
>Truth "itself" seems to imply an object standing alone unconnected ...

I wrote part of a reply to the below.  Hope I can finish it tonight.
I felt a little "straw manned" with hoon's reply, my intent was never
to say that unconnected objective truth is the only thing that exists.
A similar discussion is going on on another list I participate in
about the truth and how religion and science can share truth, and the
perception by some people that there must be a clash of the titans,
when none need exist.  At least not in my philosophy!

Something you wrote surprised me.  I tend to be suspicious when gender
lines are drawn making women the holders of some mysterious "other
knowledge" that is extra-logical.

I think it's an oversimplification of a statistical, not fundamental,
difference between men's and women's preferences between the Thinking
and the Feeling functions as described by Myers-Briggs typology, a
difference that has been statistically measured.   "women are xxx" or
"men are xxx" really usually means that women, or men, are on average
more likely to be xxx, and that's no way to deal with individuals.
There are men mystics and women scientists, no need to assign the
roles by gender.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:12:40 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Constraints
In-Reply-To:  <357DEDE3.111B@cybersurf.net>
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On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:22:28 -0600, you, Robert Longpre
<odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>, wrote:

>Julienne,
>
>If you were given any choice who would you include or exclude from
>participation in order to feel "safe"?  I think it is fair that you
>express your concerns here before there is a rush to subscribe to this
>Glass Bead Game.  I somehow have the feeling that your preceptions would
>be considered and aid others in considering their possible role(s).

I think it's important that Julienne not have to deal with anyone
she's uncomfortable with, other than me.  I don't think this has a
chance otherwise.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:12:43 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Decision time
In-Reply-To:  <l03130302b1a456cd97b0@[38.12.87.200]>
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On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:30:51 -0700, you, Charles Cameron
<hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>, wrote:

>Would you each be willing (i) to bring your conflict into this
>micro-situation of the game-list as described, (ii) in an attempt at
>structured resolution, (iii) with no doubt cautious but serious good-will
>towards that *possibility* of resolution -- ie a willingness to give it
>your very best shot -- (iv) and to abide by the constraints of the game and
>the list?

Yes.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:12:40 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
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On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:20:59 -0600, you, Robert Longpre
<odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>, wrote:

>Nancy
>
>>         defunct
>>       jung-psych?
>>   andrew samuels
>
>jung-psyc died -> jung-psy (Matthew Clapp)
>jung-psy died -> jung-psych (Marshall Pahl)
>and a bifurcation -> jung (Robert Longpre)
>        a host of jungians
>        a herd of jung-ologues
>        a mass of jung-ologists
>        a few who roam fractal universes

A jungle of jungians.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:18:54 +1200
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From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: GBG
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Hello Charles

I'm interested in being a part of GBG.  Sounds a very constructive and
positive activity.  I might learn something.

Barry
____________________________________
Barry Kennedy<kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 07:23:28 +1200
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Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
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> A jungle of jungians.
>
> -JoAnne

I like it.

Barry
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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:16:22 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Simon, Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
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Simon, Julienne, all:

Simon writes:

> I'm not sure that 'conflict resolution' and 'game' go together very
> readily.

A considerable part of my purpose insuggesting this possibility is to find
out if and how and to what extent this could work, using my specific games.
Leon Lewin tells me he has worked with  my games in "conflict resolution"
situations, but I know relatively little about what the outcome was, beyond
the fact that he found it helpful to do some tinkering with my "standard'
board,

I think in general the word "game" needs to be freed of many of its usual
associations in a context like this, though:

::  there are "games" which are played for the fun of play, and
::  "games" which are played for the fun of competition,

::  and then there area "games" which are devised to explore specific
::  mathematical propositions (John Conway's *Life*) or
::  economics (von Neumann's zero sum two-player games in
::  "Theory of Games and Ecomonic Behavior*) or to explain
::  scientific hypotheses (the games in the Novel laureate Manfred
::  Eigen's *Laws of the Game*),

::  there are "games" that simulate military situations as a means of
::  strategic preparation or training (Pentagon war games, Marine
::  use of training versions of Doom for urban warfare),

::  and there are even purely aesthetic games (Mozart's game for
::  musical composition using dice, Hesse's Glass Bead Game) and
::  games of meditative intent (my own HipBone Games can be
::  played this way).

A HipBone Game played in the spirit of conflict resolution would be a
device or tool for learning about the underlying structures of an
opposition, and would hopefully further the process in the direction ofn
resolution and reconciliation.

Simon asks:

> What would you say are the key features, or dynamics, that
> would, in your experience, prevent the GBG as you formulate it
> from simply being a case of throwing the lions to the lions while
> the Romans watch from the spectator's gallery?

Good question, but in fact containing many subquestions.  Let me respond
point by point.

1.  Throwing lions to lions:

I would say that the lions and the lions, as you put it, are already
together on Psyber-L.  The game proposal is one in which their existing
engagement would be limited to a specific sequence of "move" posts in a
specific arena, and formalized by the specific requirements of the game
rules as to the nature and presentation of "moves" and "links".

2.  Romans watching:

The principal game would be observed, but the observers would
simultaneously be participating in their own postings and game, which the
principals would presumably watch.

I don't think the proposed games would work unless (i) the principals were
willing to make a sincere effort to use the game opportunity as a vehicle
for exploring understanding and possible reconciliation, and (ii) the
participants were there to bring insight into the situation.

Again, I think this would be a matter of trust and sensitivity on
everyone's part.  The *purpose* of the list would be oriented towards
"understanding and and possible reconciliation", not towards the Coliseum.
The *invitation* would make this clear.  My personal experience with the
*Dream Event* was that the people who joined -- from Psyber-L and my own
Magister-L -- did so with a wish to respect and honor each other's dreams
and process, and that a strong bond of trust was quickly established as a
result: and exploring dreams can be a highly sensitive and potentially
vulnerable business...

In a word, the non-principals would be invited there to *support* both
principals in their explorations.

3.  My experience:

I have no experience of this exact thing being tried before.

As I say, I understand that Leon has used my games in somewhat similar
circumstances -- but I'm not sure how "intense" the situations were, and I
think he'd probably characterize the games as "promising tools" at this
stage...

I do have three or four years of experience playing the games in a variety
of settings -- on five or six mailing lists, in an online conference, by
email, at parties, as tools for dream exploration, for sheer fun, as a kind
of essay form, with a ten year old, with a Jungian analyst who is an
authority on alchemy, with game designers, and so on.

Another friend has used the games in training staff for a United Nations
simulation to be run with an international gathering of high school
students, and the staff then insisted the kids should play the games too,
which they did, also with good results.

And almost all these very different games have been outright successes --
but none of them have been games structured around a conflict and its
possible resolution: that's what's new here, that's the challenge.

I'll post come comments on the Dream Event separately, since that seems to
have been the nearest thing to what we'd be trying here -- and may give you
a more authentic sense of what the process of the games can be like in a
specific "psyche in cyberspace" context.

4.  Key features and dynamics:

The key features of the games are that they *concentrate* conversations /
discourses because they *provide a tight structure* for them.

In this way, they operate like any tight structure in the arts -- allowing
strong emotion to voice itself within a formal containment of constraints
and rules.  The tighter the structure, the more powerful the emotions it
can contain -- hence the *immense beauty* of Dylan Thomas' poem, "Do Not Go
Gentle Into That Good Night", which expresses his fierce grief at his
father's passing in villanelle form -- the tightest form of poetry in the
English language, and one which almost never succeeds because its formal
rigor almost always overpowers the emotion that's put through it.

The other feature worth mentioning here is that because the games work with
associative thought, and demand that associations to be made with a variety
of one's own and one's fellow player's ideas, they tend to dig in pretty
deep to the creative source -- and as I've mentioned earlier, both Jung and
Freud found associations to function as a sort of key to unconscious
processes.

5.  Preventing:

It's the concentration and containment and structure that will prevent this
turning into a lion-baiting -- if anything will.  And that means (a)
fidelity to the letter and spirit of the games and the group charter, (b)
real vulnerability, sensitivity, generosity, privacy, and support on the
part of all participants.

*

Julienne, after quoting Simon's questions / issues / comments above,  writes:

> I have voiced this concern before. If the same people would be
> playing the game as have been here on this list while I have
> undergone what I see as an unfair ordeal, why would anything be
> different in the game?

I hope I've given you about as much of an indication as I can, Julienne, in
my responses to Simon above.  Beyond this point, I think it's pretty much a
matter of trust...

> As Walter is listowner, isn't putting him in an authoritative
> position in the game really questionable? Walter has been angry
> at me a number of times, including just this past week, and so I
> am concerned about his participation.

I don't think Walter would be in an "authoritative position", except in so
far as he's volunteering the space we can use.  I think I'd be the one
working with the "game" structure, making sure all posts and moves were in
accord with the "charter" -- though I'd very much appreciate input from
Leon, Walter and others if they felt I was missing important clues and
hints of the process going astray.

But again, beyond this point I think Walter himself needs to speak, to
clarify what he feels his own role should be, in the light of your concerns.

> I am not opposed to doing this, but I am concerned about the
> above issues.

I am very glad that you've raised these concerns, and that you're not
wishing to go into this process blindly.  I hope the descriptions of the
Dream Event, too, will help give you a sense of what's possible.

> Julienne

My thanks to the pair of you -- and to all -- for your patience and goodwill.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:20:14 -0700
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Subject:      GBG: Dream Event quotes
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It may be good to say just a little about the Dream Event, since that was
almost certainly the closest thing to this proposed event that I've ever
been involved in.

I believe the quotes that follow, written many months after the event, will
give you all a fair idea of how it felt at the time -- both of the
wonderful cameraderie and of the sense of vulerability, and of pain mixed
with joy, that it occasioned.  All quotes are from posts to Psyber-L, at
the time we were discussing a "write up" -- a project, incidentally, that's
still in the works, and which I discussed with Walter when he visited LA
recently.

Marie described the Dream Event thus:

::  It changed me, it opened a pathway to places inside that I am
::  still exploring.  It was not the dreams - nor the game - both were
::  integral pieces, of course, powerful in their own right - it was the
::  process, the deep sharing, the level of self-disclosure I reached,
::  and my inability to tolerate the sense of exposure once I had
::  done it.  Nobody made me feel that way, it was only me running
::  into demons from the past...

Anita:

::  It was an unique experience - beyond all comparison... It indeed
::  influenced to my unconsciousness - to the very bottom.... The
::  group feeling and effect was sometimes very volatile and chaotic.
::  And sometimes I felt I cannot endure strong feelings aroused in
::  me by the group.

I wrote of "the power of the dreams themselves, ... the immense courage and
vulnerability and trust displayed by the participants ... the depth and
richness of the experience":

::  I suppose I'm a little terrified that nothing so special could quite
::  happen again: those four months were utterly magical and
::  majestic, and at the same time cut very deep, and I think I view
::  them with awe, as a time-within-time touched with the
::  "mysterium tremens" -- tremens meaning not just tremendous,
::  but (and this is the fundamental meaning) trembling...

And Susan:

::  Re: the dream event--yes, this was truly a transformational
::  experience, not only in finding a group of people who could
::  speak from their hearts and their intellect, but a group who
::  played out for me a love of literature and of thinking and of
::  connecting ideas which seemed incongruous but fit so beautifully
::  into a larger pattern. It was a chance to see people who I saw as
::  sensitive and brillant expressing the same doubts of being dumb
::  (literally and figuratively) and of not measuring up that I felt so
::  keenly--what a new insight that was, especially seeing this from
::  Anita and Marie who often awed me with their insight. I saw, in
::  a rare window into the psyche of others, women who were
::  bright, bold, and brilliant--some with strengths that I've yet to
::  find and some with self-doubts that were all too familiar to me,
::  despite their and my gifts of the mind and heart.  I saw also men
::  who were a credit to their gender and were bright and sensitive
::  (in a variety of rich ways) and willing to be vulnerable and to
::  talk about the larger issues of life as explorers. I felt joy and
::  pain--and saw others joy and pain.

Those quotes are about as close as I can come to summing up how the games
can feel when they touch some deep chords in psyche...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 13:28:03 -0700
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Subject:      Re: GBG: Decision time
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JoAnne, Julienne, all:

I'd asked both Julienne and JoAnne:

> Would you each be willing (i) to bring your conflict into this
> micro-situation of the game-list as described, (ii) in an attempt at
> structured resolution, (iii) with no doubt cautious but serious
> good-will towards that *possibility* of resolution -- ie a
> willingness to give it your very best shot -- (iv) and to abide by
> the constraints of the game and the list?

And JoAnne responded:

> Yes.

Thank you, JoAnne.

I think Julienne probably needs to hear some clarification from Walter or
myself as to Walter's participation / role before responding -- and there's
no great hurry that I can see at this point.

My best wishes to you both.

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:52:36 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: hold your horses &c
In-Reply-To:  <l0313030ab1a3b5693321@[38.12.87.200]>
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At 09:03 PM 6/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Julienne, Robert, all:
>
>Julienne wrote today in various responses to my various posts:
>
>> Geez, I feel like a guinea pig. :)
>
>This isn't a lab experiment -- and if you'll allow me the shift from New
>Guinea to France -- more like free range in a forest with truffles,
>Julienne.
>
>> So far so good. I like that there will be someone there whose field
>> is conflict resolution.
>
>I've been on a list with Leon for a while, and he's mostly pretty quiet,
>but I like what he writes when he does.
>
>> I am concerned about what exactly would be Walter's role, as I
>> think he has been too closely involved in how I feel about what
>> has happened on the list for me to feel comfortable with his
>> participation without knowing more about his role and input.
>
>My own sense is that Walter would be involved (i) as host of the event, in
>terms of "physically" providing the server, list, etc, (ii) as co-host in a
>ceremonial sense, sharing responsibility for greeting people, working on
>introductory documentation, etc, (iii) as advisor, someone I could trust
>along with Leon to call me on things I might be missing as "games master",
>and (iv) participant in the non-principal discussions and games along with
>the rest of us.
>
>Does that address your concerns?  Would you like Walter to say anything at
>this point?

Yes, I would, because Walter has corrected JoAnne when she has
made some inaccurate (JoAnne would say she "had not told the truth" -
if she were talking about me...) statements, I am concerned that he
has lost patience and been angry at me. He may also have been with
 JoAnne, but I have no memory of that. I am also concerned at what I
see as Walter's conflicted attitude towards abuse on this list, and what
I have interpreted as his condoning of it in the past.

>> Are there going to be any other women here besides JoAnne and
>> myself?
>
>As Robert very kindly said, that depends entirely on who asks to join the
>list.  I certainly hope so, and would encourage you to encourage anyone
>you'd particularly trust to join.  And the same goes for JoAnne, and those
>whose comments and counsel she finds helpful.

I would just as soon not "stuff the ballot" - but probably the person I
feel most
comfortable with on this List, beside Meeseo, is Susan. I would be delighted
if she were to be part of this.

I have purposely not e-mailed anyone about this, as it seems to be frowned
upon on this list, although this week it was made apparent that others are
in touch by e-mail. Stranger and stranger...

Susan? Are you out there? Would you be willing to play the game with us?

And Meeseo, if you would also like to, although I wonder if it might not be
upsetting to you?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:00:22 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <35895251.2835453@mail.clark.net>
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At 03:33 PM 6/9/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:07:21 GMT, you, Walter Logeman
><walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>, wrote:
>
>>I request that even in the heat of this work, and even when
>>feeling provoked that we refrain from  attacking the person
>>rather than the ideas & statements.  That we refrain from name
>>calling.  I request that we search in ourselves for ways to
>>respect others even while angry and hurt.
>>
>>I request that as list owner, because i want us to honour what is
>>in the files that create Psyber-L, if that is not your wish then
>>please write elsewhere.
>
>Can I request, then, that Julienne do likewise?  Even if she dresses
>up her personal attacks as poetry?
>
>I'm sorry the others saw what I wrote.  I was very angry.  I should
>not have sent the message to the list.  But the feelings are real.  I
>am pushed to my limits hearing the same inaccurate things over and
>over again.  It seems every post from Julienne has a dig in it for me.

JoAnne, this is interesting. You see references to you in what I
write where there are none. The very first time I wrote on here
about my list, I purposely did not mention you, or our previous
association, or refer to any friction between us at all. I purposely
didn't. But you nevertheless began this whole psybernet war
with me by reading references to you in what I wrote. I submit
you do that frequently. I am so careful (except when I have had
it) NOT to refer to you - and still you hear me talking to you.

If I say the sky is blue, I expect you to say something like,
"Julienne is just saying that because she knows I don't like
blue." I don't think you see me at all - but that I represent
old emotional issues for you...and when I say anything,
you interpret what I say in light of that other person.

Julienne

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:21:53 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980609155629.007c7c10@easynet.co.uk>
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Hullo Dolores,

At 03:56 PM 6/9/98 +0100, you wrote:

Walter wrote:

>>I request that even in the heat of this work, and even when
>>feeling provoked that we refrain from  attacking the person
>>rather than the ideas & statements.  That we refrain from name
>>calling.
>
>What work?? Back to the old labs and rats and mazes?

I think Dolores question is an important one, and may have a great deal
to do with why I don't trust you as much as I would like to, Walter.

I did not come on this List to do "work". But I do get the feeling that
you see the List that way. I also feel that you in some way see at least
some of the people on the List, if not all, as part of your "project", like
students in your class, or patients in therapy, rather than as people
outside your experiment. I feel as though you respond from your
head, with the process or project foremost in your mind, rather
than as fully flesh-and-blood, primarily feeling, human beings.
This comes across to me as an intellectual distancing and
coldness. When the heart is distanced, and not fully engaged,
whatever we are doing, then one cannot trust very deeply.

Let me illustrate what I mean:

Say a woman came to you for money for food, and you were in charge
of a community fund for such emergencies. My feeling is that, if the fund
was temporarily empty, and not to be replenished until Monday, you would
not advance her the money, even though there were also a little back-up
emergency fund. I feel as though you would do your job, and not notice
that her children would not eat that week-end. My feeling is that your
attention is on your job, not on the people for whom you work, or with
whom you interact. That is why I was surprised and delighted that you
enjoyed the idea of walking and laughing one-on-one on the beach. :)

I feel as though you speak as listowner, instead of sharing your feelings and
writing as just another member of the list. Your contributions are, as I
see them,
largely listowner commentary on what the rest of us are saying.

I am hoping that you receive this as I hope I am sending it - as my
attempt to interpret my experience of you on this list, not to complain
or hurt, but to describe what is missing for me.

Julienne

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:57:14 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Some quick points..
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At 01:40 PM 6/8/98 +0100, Dolores wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>Void was the man I loved (see post on New Orleans, can't remember what it
>was called) my boyfriend..none of you understood what was going on there, I
>understood. He was not attacking you, he was attacking me, and to an extent
> >himself, he raged against the dying of a light inside that was already half
>dead. When he stopped raging, against me, against what was happening on
>here, as I knew he would,and tried to talk sensibly, the attacks still
>continued and escalated into an infantile war where the testosterone flew
>in abundant volumes.

Wow. I felt there had to be more to the Void story.

>I ask you this, who did more damage to the list, Void (And by the way that
>was an old nick of his, as he said, nothing more, nothing less) or J & J,
>who still continue to squabble tirelessly.

But doesn't it occur to you that J&J - walked into the same world here
that Void had to negotiate? Why would you blame the List
for their response to your boyfriend, and yet blame JoAnne and
I for doing "damage to the list"? If there is a similar situation, then
wouldn't it make more sense to look to the list than to the changing
players engaged in this tempest?

Maybe the only difference is that Void left, and JoAnne and I
stuck around. if she and I left tomorrow, then what?

Maybe we should invite Void back to hear his view of events?

>So when I see these conversations about Void, I can't help but feel that
>you are embewing him with more than there really was, I did not interfere,
>because he was his own person, I asked him to calm down somewhat, and he

>did so, more arrows flew, he picked them up and hurled them back. You never
>saw who he really was because he came in deliberatly stirring the pot as I
>once did, as he reminded me, - I once did the same. I had no defence
>against that arguement.

And  doesn't every pot need stirring periodically so that it doesn't
stick to the bottom of the pan? Why couldn't the list contain that
stirring?

> In the great J & J and
>Wilbur saga, the list fell to pieces, nobody took charge, every body stood
>back, throwing up their hands in horror, or ineffectualy protesting that
>this wasn't nice. The list could not handle what was happening, it
>fragmented. That needen't have happened. We weren't equipped for the
>dropping in our area, of something new and hithertoo not dealt with.
>Somebody should have said, shut the fuck up.
>Nobody did, so a few of us left. I came back, Wilbur stayed away. I wish
>he'd come back. Its not likely to happen though.

So, in each case, somebody(s) left. First Void, and then Wilbur and co.

Instead of "shut the fuck up" - there might have been other ways to
deal with things - and maybe that is what we are trying now. I sure
would prefer to be in the noble mediator position, which is usually
where I am in my life, but I'm not - I get to be one of the baddies. It's
not the first time I get to be the baddie - but it's just not my usual role.

>The glass bead game intriques me, because thinking about it, I can't see
>the point of a game where there is no winner, even tic tac toe brings out
>the worst in me. There has to be a winner or there is no point in my
>playing.

The point here, Dolores, is that everyone can come out a winner.
Ideally. If you leave a loser behind you leave an enemy, and the
war will reengage.

I can take defeat, but its the competition that enthralls me. Its
>never a case for me that its not the winning but how you play the game. For
>me its always both, and I'm not above cheating. The glass bead game is a
>game of intellectual one upmanship, even if you protest it is not.

Well, we'll see. It will be if it is directed by people with an agenda.

>I apologise to you Marie, but it wasn't an attack on you, as I have already
>said, and while I have no great desire to stand on the side of that
>miserable lump of humanity known as Mark/void,  the list paints a picture
>of him that is not entirely accurate at the moment, that is not in balance
>with what really happened or who he really was.

As it paints an inaccurate picture of JoAnne and me, and of the list itself?

Maybe the whole list would be best playing this game. Where does
Hoon fit in with his enigmatic pieces which often leave me wondering
just what he said - even though it made me think? made me think because
the meaning isn't clear - I'm rarely sure what he means. Although that's
been less true lately.

I wonder if there isn't a lot of repressed stuff on this list? So many people
on here sick - holding stuff in. What are we really up to? What about all
the stresses in our lives? What can we learn from each other which might
transfer to RL? Who on here pushes each of our buttons? Who on here
makes us sick, like in real life? I think this might be a way to look at
what is happening here - instead of just talking about the welcome file
and the process - maybe we just need to focus on our own stuff as we
interact.

That's not meant as a criticism of the work you do on the welcome file,
Walter -
just a suggestion, following on that of Dolores, that the welcome file is
only a wobbly skeleton - we flesh it out, and if you make it too tight we
can't grow.

Well...I'm just trying to think it all though - when I'd really much rather
be above it all and posting all sorts of loving and spiritual and poetic
things. Apparently those are the parts of myself which have to be left behind
here - at least for now - and so be it.

Maybe I should just revel in being the list shadow - and usurp the role
JoAnne thinks I assign to her. JoAnne - who assigned that to you in
the past? Someone had to for you to think I'm doing it to you...

Julienne

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Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:42:12 +1200
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From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Simon, Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
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Hi all,

This is a post that just
says - ' I'm here by the way'...

Check out the fact that I am here, and listening
to your discussions.


> Simon asked, about the GBG...
>> What would ... prevent the GBG ...
>> from simply being a case of throwing the lions to the lions while
>> the Romans watch from the spectator's gallery?

I am usually a fairly 'silent'
list member and I realise that
this is a name that can be applied to me
in the midst of the * past * arguments on this list.

-- "Roman" --   which would have to be a curse,
in just about anyones book.

And its justified, I mean, in the depths of the more personal (and venective)
dialogues between the main list particpants, I feel a bit
like I am getting other people's letters  !

As a (fairly) silent list-member, you might wonder
why I don't leave.

But thats the thing!  I don't want to leave
but I do want you to be aware that myself (and perhaps a few
like me ) are here.

There *are* many things on the list I find very interesting
and I want to stay for these - for the discussion the ideas,
just to watch the incredibly fast moving flow of thoughts.

I find it hard to find the time or the space
in the flow to make a post, and I admit
that I don't read every post, but I don't want to leave
either.

Actually there are many names that I could apply to myself
in this role here;  'lurker', 'audience', 'citizen' and now 'roman'


-- miles as " lurker " --

The most dictionary correct  name would probably
be "lurker", which I believe is in common use
to describe silent list members.

Actually there is a science fiction show - Babylon5 - set
on a spinning space station. The writer uses the name "lurker"
to describe all the masses that inhabit the depths
of the space station.

[ He actually said that this was deliberate in
deference to the many fans on the 'babylon5' list ]

Anyway, in the nature of all TV shows, of course, there is a
priniciple cast, the 'Ships Doctor", the "Station Commander" the
various "Alien Ambassdors" ... and the bit parts,
or the one-show starts, many of whom are drawn from the
'Lurkers'.

So I actually quite like that nane, though I wonder -
If I am lurker, who are the rest of you ? Who's the ships
doctor ? Who are the alien ambassadors ?  Who is gonna
play the role of the warring alien ambassadors, that gives
the show its dynamic tension ? ;-)


-- miles as " citizen " --


>Julienne wrote...
>
>> Robert, I would like to suggest that you and Meeseo are in a privileged
>> position. It is those of us down in the dirt who are doing a great deal
>> of your work for you, while you assume the holy roles of poet and
>> saint.

and also
>> We are the players acting it out on the stage for you, while you
>> sit and gasp at what you're seeing as if you couldn't possibly
>> be in the same position. Sort of like affluent whites gasping at the
>> "bad" behaviour of deprived kids in the ghetto.

These words are probably better to act in judgement on me
than Robert or Meseeo, who are both getting 'down in the dirt'
with the rest of you, whilst * i * stay out and well clear...

And they do make a criticism. As I said above,
I'm not sure that I should be watching this , or being here
at all without being involved and perhaps contributing.

But then again why should I ? I wouldn't feel compelled to get involved
in an argument in a public place like the city Square.

I guess the difference is that the participants would
be *aware* in that situation of where they are.

This list is not a public square,, but perhaps there is
something in its nature that is affected by the fact
that I am here also.. that I am a 'citizen' here
the same as the rest of you. ;-)
And there are usually quite a few "Citizens" milling around
here in the square, though only a few are actually posting at any given time.


-- miles as " audience " --

I like the name "audience" most of all. Especially
for this list.

And if I am in the audience, then when we are each on
the stage when we post.

And I like the fact that we are 'represented' here by
our words and not by our real selves with all
their biography, shape, age and gender.

The list is acting, but the list is more real than acting, because
this is not a play. This is real discussion.
I was fascinated to hear Meseoo describe who she was
when I am so different by age, gender, everything, and yet -- here
 - in this place - I interact with everyone on the same
level as she.

My stage presence (small though it is) is created
entirely by my words and not by my biography !

> Robert wrote..
>... Do you really want to know
> who I am and destroy these illusions that you have constructed?  The
> words I speak here are authentic and are not some facade, some mask,
> some fictitious theatre.

> And also..
> Julienne, in case it got missed, Meeseo and I share this stage too.
> Perhaps that got missed.  I do wonder why the lashing out is happening,
> the judging and denigrating is happening.  I wonder at the need, the
> motive, the, the hope.



< Charles wrote, in relation to the GBG  >
>2.  Romans watching:
>
>The principal game would be observed, but the observers would
>simultaneously be participating in their own postings and game, which the
>principals would presumably watch.
>
>I don't think the proposed games would work unless (i) the principals were
>willing to make a sincere effort to use the game opportunity as a vehicle
>for exploring understanding and possible reconciliation, and (ii) the
>participants were there to bring insight into the situation.

I hope that I have brought some insight into the nature
of this * list * as a list, which is defined in its
nature an awful lot by the technology, by the year 1998 and
by all those little things that say this is a 'list' which is
the same but not the same as other lists.


This is not to say that the conflict resolution 'game' would
necessarily be the same...

> As Charles wrote
> In a word, the non-principals would be invited there to *support* both
> principals in their explorations.

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:44:01 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      'On Dialogue' III
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[The following quote is the opening two paragraphs of 'Dialogue and
Thought', a sub-section of the chapter 'On Dialogue' from Bohm's book.
Again, shades of Krishnamurti here -- Simon]


"It is important to see that the different opinions that you have are the
result of past thought: all your experiences, what other people have said,
and what not. That is all programmed into your memory. You may then
identify with those opinions and react to defend them. But it doesn't make
sense to do this. If the opinion is right, it doesn't need such a reaction.
And if it is wrong, why should you defend it? If you are identified with
it, however, you do defend it. It is as if you yourself are under attack
when your opinion is challenged. Opinions thus tend to be experienced as
'truths', even though they may only be your own assumptions and your own
background. You got them from your teacher, your family, or by reading, or
in yet some other way. Then for one reason or another your are identified
with them, and you defend them.

"Dialogue is really aimed at going into the whole thought process and
changing the way the thought process occurs collectively. We haven't really
paid much attention to thought as a process. We have *engaged* in thoughts,
but we have only paid attention to the content, not to the process. Why
does thought require attention? Everything requires attention, really. If
we ran machines without paying attention to them, they would break down.
Our thought, too, is a process, and it requires attention, otherwise it's
going to go wrong."


Simon

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:42:44 +0100
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Subject:      'On Dialogue' I
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All,

I've just collected a copy of David Bohm's 'On Dialogue' that I had put
back for me at the bookstore, and I feel quite excited! Dipping into the
book, as is my wont, I quickly found some sections that I want to quote
here - they seem apposite at this time in the list. I hope that the
following quotes will be of interest here, indeed stimulating! Charles, I
hope they will provide useful reflection around what you're attempting.

I'm giving each quote its own post for ease of reading and reference. Also,
I've split the paragraphs with a blank line in each case, as I find this
makes for easier onscreen reading, but each quote is continuous.

The first quote is actually from the Foreword by the book's editor, Lee
Nichol, describing the chapter 'Suspension, the Body, and Proprioception',
and is so good that I think it stands on its own merits (also seems to be a
fair summation, from a quick glance through the chapter).


"'Suspension, the Body, and Proprioception' is an exploration of various
aspects of awareness that have the potential to cut through the confusion
produced by the weight of collective opinion, ill-founded representations,
and the illusion of the observer and the observed. Bohm suggests that both
on one's own and in the context of a dialogue, it is possible to "suspend"
assumptions. For example, if you feel that someone is an idiot, to suspend
you would (a) refrain from saying so outwardly, and (b) refrain from
telling yourself you should not think such things. In this way, the
*effects* of the thought "You are an idiot" (agitation, anger, resentment)
are free to run their course, but in a way that allows them to simply be
seen, rather than fully identified with. In other words, suspending an
assumption or reaction means neither repressing it nor following through on
it, but fully attending to it.

"In the activity of suspension, the role of the body is of central
importance. If a strong impulse is suspended, it will inevitably manifest
physically - increased blood pressure, adrenalin, muscular tension, and so
on. Likewise, a spectrum of emotions will emerge. In Bohm's view, these
components - thoughts, emotions, bodily reactions - are in fact an unbroken
whole. However, they sustain one another by appearing to be different - a
thought here, a pain in the neck there, and an observer somehow struggling
to manage it all. Underlying this activity is a further assumption that the
entire difficulty is caused by something "other", something "out there".

"Bohm then suggests that "proprioception of thought" may be capable of
directly penetrating this cycle of confusion. Physiologically,
proprioception provides the body with immediate feedback about its own
activity. One can walk up and down steps, for example, without having to
consciously direct the body's movement. Further, one can make clear
distinctions between what originates within one's body, and what has come
from outside. If you move your own arm, you do not have the mistaken
impression that someone else has moved it for you. Currently, however, we
lack such immediate feedback about the movement of *thought*. Often,
therefore, we perceive a difficulty to originate outside ourselves, when in
fact it is primarily a construction of thought. Bohm proposes that, with
suspension as a basis, the movement of thought can become proprioceptive,
much as the body does."


I find this exciting because it describes to an extent what I think of as
personal process.

The references to "the illusion of the observer and the observed" and "the
movement of thought" have their origins in Krishnamurti, who Bohm was
influenced by. K is someone else whose writings I find myself returning to;
his talks and dialogues have been resonating within me since I was a
teenager.

The talk of bodily proprioception also reminds me of the process-oriented
psychologist Arnold Mindell, whose books I read a couple or so years back
and found highly useful as I was trying to make sense of the mind/body
shifts that were happening to me. He also references Bohm, and quotes from
'Wholeness and the Implicate Order' at one point! Mindell trained as a
Jungian, by the way, and his body-oriented work involves what he calls the
'dreambody'. Is anyone else on the list aware of or familiar with his work?

Charles: Mindell has also done conflict resolution work, though the only
book is his that (I think) is about that was unavailable when I was reading
him. He also produced a videotape on conflict resolution, apparently.

Simon

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:43:54 +0100
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Subject:      'On Dialogue' II
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[The following is the opening section of the chapter 'On Dialogue' from
Bohm's book of the same name. Note the ping-pong reference! -- Simon]

"The way we start a dialogue group is usually by talking *about* dialogue -
talking it over, discussing why we're doing it, what it means, and so
forth. I don't think it is wise to start a group before people have gone
into all that, at least somewhat. You can, but then you'll have to trust
that the group will continue, and that these questions will come out later.
So if you are thinking of meeting in a group, one thing which I suggest is
to have a discussion or a seminar about dialogue for a while, and those who
are interested can then go on to have the dialogue. And you mustn't worry
too much whether you are or are *not* having dialogue - that's one of the
blocks. It may be mixed. So we will discuss dialogue for a while - what is
its nature?

"I give a meaning to the word 'dialogue' that is somewhat different from
what is commonly used. The derivations of words often help to suggest a
deeper meaning. 'Dialogues' comes the Greek word 'dialogos'. 'Logos' means
'the word', or in our case we would think of the "meaning of the word". And
'dia' means 'through' - it doesn't mean 'two'. A dialogue can be among any
number of people, not just two. Even one person can have a sense of
dialogue within himself, if the spirit of the dialogue is present. The
picture or image that this derivation suggests is of a *stream of meaning*
flowing among and through us and between us. This will make possible a flow
of meaning in the whole group, out of which may emerge some new
understanding. It's something new, which may not have been in the starting
point at all. It's something creative. And this shared meaning is the
'glue' or 'cement' that holds people and societies together.

"Contrast this with the word 'discussion', which has the same root as
'percussion' and 'concussion'. It really means to break things up. It
emphasises the idea of analysis, where there may be many points of view,
and where everybody is presenting a different one - analysing and breaking
it up. That obviously has its value, but it is limited, and it will not get
us very far beyond our various points of view. Discussion is almost like a
ping-pong game, where people are batting the ideas back and forth and the
object of the game is to win or to get points for yourself. Possibly you
will take up somebody else's ideas to back up your own - you may agree with
some and disagree with others - but the basic point is to win the game.
That's very frequently the case in a discussion.

"In dialogue, however, nobody is trying to win. Everybody wins if anybody
wins. There is a different sort of spirit to it. In a dialogue, there is no
attempt to gain points, or to make your particular view prevail. Rather,
whenever any mistake is discovered on the part of anybody, everybody gains.
It's a situation called win-win, whereas the other game is win-lose - if I
win, you lose. But a dialogue is something more of a common participation,
in which we are not playing a game against each other, but *with* each
other. In a dialogue, everybody wins."



[phew! oh for a scanner!]


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:59:46 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Honesty, civility, outrage, safety:
In-Reply-To:  <l03130307b1a38ac723ca@[38.12.87.200]>
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Charles,

I would like to play the game, to see if I can actually play a game that
doesn't involve winning or the persuit of a win.

Seriously I doubt it.



Dolores.

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:00:25 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Taking care of Psyber business
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Nancy,

>  Good morning, Judith.  I'm just 'looking in upon you' to send my wishes
>that you might have a good day as the healing process continues for you.
>             Nancy

And good evening Nancy...BTW my antiquated computer was never able to get
to the card you sent loooong ago it seems...yes the healing process
continues and each and every wish feeds me and for that I am in awe of
being held here.

Judith
>
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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:49:27 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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Hi JoAnne,

We need to go back to the exact wording I used because you extracted my use
of the word *feminine* and connected it to *gender* and that is not what I
meant.  My exact words were
<.the feminine has known this that there is no objectivity meaning
anything separate from anything else.>

I see each of us as having masculine and feminine within ala Yin and
Yang...so I am not drawing gender lines...

thanks...I need to qualify
Judith

>Hi Judith.  I'm glad to see you back!
tks.
j
>
>On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:12:30 -0400, you, Judith Buerkel
><judithb@APK.NET>, wrote:
>
>>>>Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:49:17 +0100
>>>>From: "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>>>>Subject:      Re: Truth
>>>
>>>>Truth itself, I would suggest, stands apart from all perspective and
>>>>motive. Perhaps it can only ever be experienced, never conveyed.
>>
>>Simon,
>>Pardon this but I seem to have regained a bit of indignation...must be a
>>healthy sign cause indignation takes a lot of energy...
>>
>>Truth "itself" seems to imply an object standing alone unconnected ...
>
>I wrote part of a reply to the below.  Hope I can finish it tonight.
>I felt a little "straw manned" with hoon's reply, my intent was never
>to say that unconnected objective truth is the only thing that exists.
>A similar discussion is going on on another list I participate in
>about the truth and how religion and science can share truth, and the
>perception by some people that there must be a clash of the titans,
>when none need exist.  At least not in my philosophy!
>
>Something you wrote surprised me.  I tend to be suspicious when gender
>lines are drawn making women the holders of some mysterious "other
>knowledge" that is extra-logical.
I don't see women holding mystery but I do experience the feminine as
mysterious...I'm not being able to access the data in my head...Hoon, you
could jump in here and help me maybe...

>
>I think it's an oversimplification of a statistical, not fundamental,
>difference between men's and women's preferences between the Thinking
>and the Feeling functions as described by Myers-Briggs typology, a
>difference that has been statistically measured.   "women are xxx" or
>"men are xxx" really usually means that women, or men, are on average
>more likely to be xxx, and that's no way to deal with individuals.
>There are men mystics and women scientists, no need to assign the
>roles by gender.

Ouch...statistics...I see the world as much more messy than thru the eye of
statistics mostly because I'm alway way out of the norm...but I can express
to you spending 3 years of self heuristics on what the experience of the
feminine is and the experience change my beingness forever...there is a
difference in the masculine and the feminine in my view in how I've lived
my life and now choose to live...it is a dance for me, one giving way
within the space to the other in an ongoing experience...it is just a
wonderfully glorious place at this time of my life to make the
choice...thus my art and the power of experiencing paper making, not a
statictical experience tho there are ph's and chemicals and pressure, and
not a logical experience...but a meditation and spiritual connection which
thrills me...these are passionate words, not to be construed as emotions
tho these are present...I don't know where this is in the myers brigs...my
4 profiles are all within 1 point of each other which the woman who gave us
the instrument seemed stunned at...particularly because I came thru what
she called the "abnormal" experience...there's that bell curve again :-)
fun to think about...
Judith


>
>-JoAnne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:50:20 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: a baby rant
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Robert as is the universe's way it is now my time to hold you...
It has been my experience thru this 2 year period that just when I thot I
was out of the woods, I was asked to experience the learning to see if I
did in reality integrate it, what I assume Walter would call experiencial
learning eh?...you have my deepest empathy and I trust your integrity in
rising to the occasion...who was it that said "give 'em hell?"
Lovingly,
Judith

>Hi all,
>
>I'm having a new set of trials added to my life.  Just as I approach the
>end of my sick leave/sabbatical for mental health, there are many events
>at my place of work which are discouraging me, events concerning my son
>who is spending his last weeks at the school, and my adoptive Mexican
>son-for-the-year.  Without going into details, it appears that there has
>been significant abuse, physical, mental, and emotional, by the school
>administration upon these sons of mine.  I have a problem dealing with
>this as there is little information given to my wife who is on the spot
>while I am removed to Calgary.  I have contacted the Director of
>Education and have heard nothing in reply.  I have also asked for a
>transfer to another school but do not anticipate that this request will
>be met.  There is so much left out of this, but I don't want to get into
>a "he said - she said" monologue.
>
>losing energy and angry
>
>Robert
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:51:36 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: reflections on space
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Simon,
Ah yes, David Bohm...in my early days of coming to know my non linearity
mind structure and beginning to grok what was going on,the work of his and
other then obscure scientists gave me hope...all of my transformational
learning work is informed by Bohn, Prigogine, Peat, Sheldrake, Capra and a
few others...and what seemed radical in the 70's is now moving into the
main stream...she says happily...then there is complexity theory and the
Santa Fe Institute...well, it makes my heart sing to find my spirituality
meeting my science...

Thanks for bringing Bohm and dialogue to this space...so much good stuff
going on here
Regards,
Judith
>>Simon,
>>
>>With appologies in going silent just as you addressed me...however, healing
>>is a non linear process to say the least and illness is a hard taskmaster
>>which will not be ignored...however, your reflections on space was
>>synchronistic to say the least...it presaged a healing event of last
>>Saturday am...I have been feeling so held by everyone here and continue in
>>gratitude...
>>>Judith,
>
>Judith,
>
>It's good to hear from you, and to see that you're able to be present here
>through your words once again - valued, as always...
>
>The spirit can remain strong even when the body is weakened. I feel your
>strong spirit.
>
>Judith, I'm glad that the poem and quote had meaning and value for you.
>Found objects at a found time, found by what means? I intuited a need to
>send them to you, and within the list aura of psyber-l.
>
>Someone once wrote on another list:
>
>"If I am to speak at all, I must speak the truth."
>
>To which I replied:
>
>"You need only speak your own truth at the time you need to speak it."
>
>To which someone else then responded:
>
>"provided only that "the time" told you the truth, possibly..."
>
>wonderful!
>
>maybe "the time" always tells us the truth of the moment, but "sometimes"
>we're deaf to it! (maybe most times!)
>
>
>>The resonnance came to me while I was on my knees in prayer as the coughing
>>reached a cresendo and challenged me...i received replies from so many
>>people, you and everyone here answered...quite overwhelming...
>
>resonance = true personal meaning found? an interesting equation...
>
>anyway, your vivid description here resonates with me, speaking of messages
>from the body that need(s) to be (at)tended to...
>
>
>>Simon, this excerpt is very descriptive of the experience I am having with
>>this illness and my body's energy system...I have to be very careful of my
>>energy expenditure. I found that my engagement here which has been so
>>meaningful to me   began to take its toll, and the "productive" began
>>requiring more energy than I could replenish...thus I was in a self
>>inflicted conflict to be present in this space with everyone while taking
>>care of body's requirement...
>
>The decision needing to be made, then, is on how best to value yourself
>within a given circumstance...
>
>
>>What was so astounding to me was how much support I was feeling
>>energetically from everyone in this space
>
>I am so glad this was how it was for you, Judith. May it continue to be so...
>
>
>>certainly anecdotal evidence of
>>non linearity...
>>In gratitude,
>>Judith
>
>Have you come across the book 'Wholeness and the Implicate Order' by the
>(now sadly, late) physicist and philosopher David Bohm? I think you would
>find it interesting. I'm finding my way back to his work at the moment,
>thanks to the talk on this list about dialogue. He also wrote a book called
>'On Dialogue', and there's the book 'Unfolding Meaning: A Weekend of
>Dialogue with David Bohm' which explores his ideas further, and also his
>published dialogues with Krishnamurti, who was an influence on his thinking.
>
>
>Simon
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:17:07 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <19980610213006.BJRX26112@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi again!

I am starting to get into this posting thing. ;-)

I have overcome my caution and am just going to do it!
( please don't eat me for breakfast.  ;-)

What I want to do right now is
to defend poor old Walter here for a second.

I think we owe everyone who has put the time
into creating this list for what it is a vote of thanks,

So thanks everyone !

But right now, I want to extend thanks especially to Walter ! :-)

Its not just the logical 'space' that you have provided, but rather
it seems to me that you have put an awful lot of work into
this list, you make the * effort *, it seems, to read
just about every single post.  Thats a huge job,
but more than that, you seem to make the effort to
find the people that are saying things and to always
provide them with that feedback that says  - someone
is listening. It definitely keeps this list alive,
which is a benefit to us all, and many of us have gained
( I think) a lot from the sorts of discussion that then flow from that.

More than that your posts seem always to be considerate ,
of the needs for healing in the group , and also of
the issues that they raise. Perhaps the criticism is there
that you have been 'too' considered ? But as to whether
that is fair criticism I wouldn't really know.

What strikes me is that all this must take an awful lot
of time.. I am going to be in trouble for all the time i have
spent this morning on this list, just reading and writing to make these two
posts,
has taken up basically my whole morning. Its 11:30
and my paid work has not even yet begun (arrrrrrghh!!)

You don't get paid for all the time you spend trying to keep
this list healthy and alive, which it is, much more
than any list such as this. The least I think we can do is say
thanks occasionally. So yeah. There it is! Thanks!

------

Continuing on a slightly different subject...

>> Walter wrote:
>> I request that as list owner, because i want us to honour what is
>> in the files that create Psyber-L, if that is not your wish then
>> please write elsewhere.

> Julienne responded:
>
> I think it is amazing that you step in now, Walter.  I also
> think it is amazing that you step in way after where it all
> began.  Why didn't you ask people to stop the ad hominem
> attacks when they were first aimed at me? I have been in
> agony over this for nearly a year - and now you wonder if *I*
> provoked JoAnne?


Julienne what exactly do expect out of Walter?  He
has a role to play here in this list, but what exactly
that role is remains unclear. It seems that is
a matter of some difficulty to define exactly what his role
should be, and even if we were clear what we would *want* out
of him, perhaps it would be too much to expect from a single
person. Perhaps he cannot find the emotional depth or
even just the time to be a list-protector and list-faciltator
or list-moderator.

This is *not* a moderated list, people can post whatever they want,
Walter does not censor or approve anything that people say on this
list no matter how hurtful. Sure he can make suggestions, and even remove
people after the fact, but I ... I dunno. Maybe we should not
expect too much from a single mortal human !

For most of the time that the Ad-Hominen attacks (whatever that
means) were going on, he was in the middle of an extensive trip.
Can we really expect him to monitor or perhaps guide the torrents
of the list from airport lounges and hotel rooms as he goes ?
He's not the executive of some huge corporation that needs
him to be in constant contact with his employees.

This is unpaid 'work' - just something that
he had decided to start... The connotations of 'project'
and 'explorative work' are perhaps appropriate for him,
because this is how this list came into being.

>>>Walter wrote:
>>>I request that even in the heat of this work, and even when
>>>feeling provoked that we refrain from  attacking the person
>>>rather than the ideas & statements.  That we refrain from name
>>>calling.

>>Dolores Wrote:
>>
>>What work?? Back to the old labs and rats and mazes?

>Julienne wrote:
>I think Dolores question is an important one, and may have a great deal
>to do with why I don't trust you as much as I would like to, Walter.
>
>I did not come on this List to do "work". But I do get the feeling that
>you see the List that way. I also feel that you in some way see at least
>some of the people on the List, if not all, as part of your "project", like

Every list has a purpose, something that it is trying to achieve, or a reason
for its coming into being. That is what the 'work' of this list is. It may
not be 'work' in the sense of 'hard work for money' but it is at least an
endeavour
something that could be really cool if we wanted to achieve it...

I personally, don't feel that this list is just a place for disccusion between
individuals. I like to think that it is exploring new ideas and concepts.
Things like this GBG that is coming up... If that works then it would
be a marveoullous thing which would be acontribution
to everyone both indidually but also the group and alsot he world..
(user/group/world flagg = 744 )

Anyway I feel that the words 'this work' captures that mood... or at
least i *think* thats how it is intended. Perhaps it is a little bit
uncharitable
to react to it in the way that you have done. I hope that we haven't
frightened him
off ;-)


This list is especially difficult, I think, because it does tread this
halfway between personal interaction and 'working towards a goal'

I mean with a list like, um mozilla-java, the discussion is about how
to build a program... any discussion off the topic is either
ignored or told to go elsewhere.. If a person offends on that front
more than once they are immediately and unceremoniously removed.

There it is easy to see what the role of list-owner is. They are the
people that remove people that are off-topic and / or annoying.

Here it is a lot more tricky....


Come back Walter!


(end of stream of consciousness ranting. i haven't got time to re-read,
sorry, must post... see you all around! )

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:56:01 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Simon, Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
In-Reply-To:  <l0313030bb1a499bd5d1c@[38.29.10.146]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Charles,

Thank you for your considered response and clarifications. I will just
throw in a couple or so reactions here before bedtime!

>Simon, Julienne, all:
>
>Simon writes:
>
>> I'm not sure that 'conflict resolution' and 'game' go together very
>> readily.
>
>A considerable part of my purpose insuggesting this possibility is to find
>out if and how and to what extent this could work, using my specific games.

I wonder if this might make Julienne and JoAnne uneasy - echoes of 'lab
rats/guinea pigs'.


>Leon Lewin tells me he has worked with  my games in "conflict resolution"
>situations, but I know relatively little about what the outcome was, beyond
>the fact that he found it helpful to do some tinkering with my "standard'
>board,

Maybe it would be a good idea for Leon to introduce himself on psyber-l, so
that folks here could get a better sense of both him and his experience
with conflict resolution and GBG *before* entering this process (or not).


>I think in general the word "game" needs to be freed of many of its usual
>associations in a context like this, though:
>
>::  there are "games" which are played for the fun of play, and
>::  "games" which are played for the fun of competition,
>
>::  and then there area "games" which are devised to explore specific
>::  mathematical propositions (John Conway's *Life*) or
>::  economics (von Neumann's zero sum two-player games in
>::  "Theory of Games and Ecomonic Behavior*) or to explain
>::  scientific hypotheses (the games in the Novel laureate Manfred
>::  Eigen's *Laws of the Game*),
>
>::  there are "games" that simulate military situations as a means of
>::  strategic preparation or training (Pentagon war games, Marine
>::  use of training versions of Doom for urban warfare),
>
>::  and there are even purely aesthetic games (Mozart's game for
>::  musical composition using dice, Hesse's Glass Bead Game) and
>::  games of meditative intent (my own HipBone Games can be
>::  played this way).
>
>A HipBone Game played in the spirit of conflict resolution would be a
>device or tool for learning about the underlying structures of an
>opposition, and would hopefully further the process in the direction ofn
>resolution and reconciliation.

Yes, none of the usual associations that you quote above fit, do they. In
fact, maybe the whole metaphor of 'playing the game' is wrong here. Again,
it would be interesting to hear Leon's experience and perspective.


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 01:28:06 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Truth
In-Reply-To:  <3594c875.72720468@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>I think it's an oversimplification of a statistical, not fundamental,
>difference between men's and women's preferences between the Thinking
>and the Feeling functions as described by Myers-Briggs typology, a
>difference that has been statistically measured.   "women are xxx" or
>"men are xxx" really usually means that women, or men, are on average
>more likely to be xxx, and that's no way to deal with individuals.
>There are men mystics and women scientists, no need to assign the
>roles by gender.
>
>-JoAnne

To me, gender is a continuum, and people, male and female, can exist at
varying positions along this continuum, in fact can themselves shift to an
extent within the continuum.

This is not to ignore that there *are* distinctions to be made, that
biology has its effect, and that differences in history, conditioning,
power roles, social pressures etc. have *positioned* 'men' and 'women'
differently. But the issue is (the issues are!) complex.

The extent to which society defines, and has always defined, what 'men' and
'women' are, as opposed to what they 'really' are, is showing up I think in
the many changes and shifts that are happening in Western society at the
moment, which are altering quite dramatically how both women and men see
themselves.


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:45:16 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: a baby rant
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith

> It has been my experience thru this 2 year period that just when I thot I
> was out of the woods, I was asked to experience the learning to see if I
> did in reality integrate it

What synchronicity!  Just as we are about to delve into the world of
conflict resolution, I find myself now needing to mediate conflict
between my sons and the school, between my wife and the school
administration, and find myself at one of the conflict poles.  Then,
comes Simon's posts concerning David Bohm's book ON DIALOGUE.  I begin
to think that maybe I am supposed to become part of the GBG.  Anger from
the past mixing with present events that also evoke anger ... mixing the
past and present and getting stuck.

> you have my deepest empathy and I trust your integrity in
> rising to the occasion...who was it that said "give 'em hell?"

I think that it was my wife who said that :)  And she also expects this
to be done with integrity .... now to separate the past from the present
....

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:47:18 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Some quick points..
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Julienne,

I for one don't feel I'm holding stuff in as a quick point but there is
more to how I am receiving what you write here

>I wonder if there isn't a lot of repressed stuff on this list? So many people
>on here sick - holding stuff in. What are we really up to? What about all
>the stresses in our lives? What can we learn from each other which might
>transfer to RL? Who on here pushes each of our buttons? Who on here
>makes us sick, like in real life? I think this might be a way to look at
>what is happening here - instead of just talking about the welcome file
>and the process - maybe we just need to focus on our own stuff as we
>interact.

Another quick point is that I don't think of this space here apart from
RL...my connection here is an aspect of my life and one I am being fed
by...it is my view that by framing this space as something not RL, distorts
and creates an artificial construct to me...are you any less real to me
here than my real life just because you are in a different state and I
cannot see you...I certainly listen to you as I would if you were sitting
here in my living room...

Finally, just a feeling...I continue to seek ways in which to engage the
deep experiences you are living...however, I for one engage my life in a
very different way as our conversation revealed not to be read as better or
worse...merely different...I have not had the kind of sorrows you have
expressed on the list and that distances me from you on one level...it has
not been my path to serve those who need a voice...the closest I've come to
any societal discomfort is moving here to the inner city of Cleveland to
experience what it means to those living here...i've learned alot, but I am
not having the same experience my neighbors are having and thus not walking
in their shoes I don't feel I know what they experience, tho I definitely
feel the chaotic energy which hangs and enervates...my life challenges have
been different from that which you have shared here, I have very little
stress in my life which I attribute to my own design but may be a state of
grace...andboth...I can listen and feel empathy, but there is no way that
my beingness is going to be of service to you in the way messo's story
resonnates...and thus when you offer  *maybe we just need to focus on our
own stuff as we interact*  my experience here is that some of that is
indeed going on...your experience of Hoon, Stephen to me as my work
partner, is of an aspect of him...his and my work together brings another
aspect tho shades of this...often I don't follow his postings here because
my mind doesn't work that way, but I watch he and Simon exchange and feel
there is a sense of comraderie which I do not resonnate to but which seems
to feed them...I continue to be awed (seems there is alot of that going on
in my life at the moment) by what you bring here and even for me the J&J
experience has been different than what has been spoken here...I have my
own *take* on what I see and trust both of you and dare I say the word
process :-)

Finally,I find a feeling which I have not had much before...a real need to
be able to expand this space into f2f with you for I know I have learning
to do based in your beingness which I experience as deeply feminine (don't
read gender)thus the Cha*os list which knowing nothing at all about it
seemed to speak to that place of messiness- the primordial, spiritual,
creative mysterious unexplainable the unformed...which is a space I am
currently reveling in...and that's how I sense you here though I know there
is much more to know, but this is the current place of my knowing.

Lovingly,
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:53:57 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Miles,
Great new rhythm and sounds you are bringing here...yeah watch the posting
thing...it sneaks up on you...
Judith
>Hi again!
>
>I am starting to get into this posting thing. ;-)
>
>I have overcome my caution and am just going to do it!
>( please don't eat me for breakfast.  ;-)
>
>What I want to do right now is
>to defend poor old Walter here for a second.
>
>I think we owe everyone who has put the time
>into creating this list for what it is a vote of thanks,
>
>So thanks everyone !
>
>But right now, I want to extend thanks especially to Walter ! :-)
>
>Its not just the logical 'space' that you have provided, but rather
>it seems to me that you have put an awful lot of work into
>this list, you make the * effort *, it seems, to read
>just about every single post.  Thats a huge job,
>but more than that, you seem to make the effort to
>find the people that are saying things and to always
>provide them with that feedback that says  - someone
>is listening. It definitely keeps this list alive,
>which is a benefit to us all, and many of us have gained
>( I think) a lot from the sorts of discussion that then flow from that.
>
>More than that your posts seem always to be considerate ,
>of the needs for healing in the group , and also of
>the issues that they raise. Perhaps the criticism is there
>that you have been 'too' considered ? But as to whether
>that is fair criticism I wouldn't really know.
>
>What strikes me is that all this must take an awful lot
>of time.. I am going to be in trouble for all the time i have
>spent this morning on this list, just reading and writing to make these two
>posts,
>has taken up basically my whole morning. Its 11:30
>and my paid work has not even yet begun (arrrrrrghh!!)
>
>You don't get paid for all the time you spend trying to keep
>this list healthy and alive, which it is, much more
>than any list such as this. The least I think we can do is say
>thanks occasionally. So yeah. There it is! Thanks!
>
>------
>
>Continuing on a slightly different subject...
>
>>> Walter wrote:
>>> I request that as list owner, because i want us to honour what is
>>> in the files that create Psyber-L, if that is not your wish then
>>> please write elsewhere.
>
>> Julienne responded:
>>
>> I think it is amazing that you step in now, Walter.  I also
>> think it is amazing that you step in way after where it all
>> began.  Why didn't you ask people to stop the ad hominem
>> attacks when they were first aimed at me? I have been in
>> agony over this for nearly a year - and now you wonder if *I*
>> provoked JoAnne?
>
>
>Julienne what exactly do expect out of Walter?  He
>has a role to play here in this list, but what exactly
>that role is remains unclear. It seems that is
>a matter of some difficulty to define exactly what his role
>should be, and even if we were clear what we would *want* out
>of him, perhaps it would be too much to expect from a single
>person. Perhaps he cannot find the emotional depth or
>even just the time to be a list-protector and list-faciltator
>or list-moderator.
>
>This is *not* a moderated list, people can post whatever they want,
>Walter does not censor or approve anything that people say on this
>list no matter how hurtful. Sure he can make suggestions, and even remove
>people after the fact, but I ... I dunno. Maybe we should not
>expect too much from a single mortal human !
>
>For most of the time that the Ad-Hominen attacks (whatever that
>means) were going on, he was in the middle of an extensive trip.
>Can we really expect him to monitor or perhaps guide the torrents
>of the list from airport lounges and hotel rooms as he goes ?
>He's not the executive of some huge corporation that needs
>him to be in constant contact with his employees.
>
>This is unpaid 'work' - just something that
>he had decided to start... The connotations of 'project'
>and 'explorative work' are perhaps appropriate for him,
>because this is how this list came into being.
>
>>>>Walter wrote:
>>>>I request that even in the heat of this work, and even when
>>>>feeling provoked that we refrain from  attacking the person
>>>>rather than the ideas & statements.  That we refrain from name
>>>>calling.
>
>>>Dolores Wrote:
>>>
>>>What work?? Back to the old labs and rats and mazes?
>
>>Julienne wrote:
>>I think Dolores question is an important one, and may have a great deal
>>to do with why I don't trust you as much as I would like to, Walter.
>>
>>I did not come on this List to do "work". But I do get the feeling that
>>you see the List that way. I also feel that you in some way see at least
>>some of the people on the List, if not all, as part of your "project", like
>
>Every list has a purpose, something that it is trying to achieve, or a reason
>for its coming into being. That is what the 'work' of this list is. It may
>not be 'work' in the sense of 'hard work for money' but it is at least an
>endeavour
>something that could be really cool if we wanted to achieve it...
>
>I personally, don't feel that this list is just a place for disccusion between
>individuals. I like to think that it is exploring new ideas and concepts.
>Things like this GBG that is coming up... If that works then it would
>be a marveoullous thing which would be acontribution
>to everyone both indidually but also the group and alsot he world..
>(user/group/world flagg = 744 )
>
>Anyway I feel that the words 'this work' captures that mood... or at
>least i *think* thats how it is intended. Perhaps it is a little bit
>uncharitable
>to react to it in the way that you have done. I hope that we haven't
>frightened him
>off ;-)
>
>
>This list is especially difficult, I think, because it does tread this
>halfway between personal interaction and 'working towards a goal'
>
>I mean with a list like, um mozilla-java, the discussion is about how
>to build a program... any discussion off the topic is either
>ignored or told to go elsewhere.. If a person offends on that front
>more than once they are immediately and unceremoniously removed.
>
>There it is easy to see what the role of list-owner is. They are the
>people that remove people that are off-topic and / or annoying.
>
>Here it is a lot more tricky....
>
>
>Come back Walter!
>
>
>(end of stream of consciousness ranting. i haven't got time to re-read,
>sorry, must post... see you all around! )
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:08:50 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      The sounds of music
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi all,
This is my last posting for the day...I promise...

Somewhere Hoon wrote about music which I missed...but what I am
experiencing here is quite exciting earwise...the voices are
multiplying...and so the music...Delores back (great!) sticks in hand...
the rifts of Nancy and Robert's poetry... the J & J chorus...messeos
interlude...Anita's interjections.. Simon's intermessos...Walter's list
owner's lament ;-)...Charles and his merry band of games...Hoon's
hooning...Helen's cry of *enuf already* and then Miles finally taking up
his instrument and a cool breeze blows thru...so many truly amazing sounds
coming from this space scatting to the lurker's silent beat...The Psyber-L
Jazz Ensenble heard at all hours of the day and night coming to you from
beautiful downtown New Zealand and points NSEW

Judith off to her Italian aria

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:27:49 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      == Psyber-L Description ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

== Psybernet Mailing List:  Psyber-L  ==


Psybernet formed in 1993 to offer professional psychological
services on the Internet. The Psyber-L mailing list grew out of
the need to learn more and experience first hand the potential of
the net, especially how online lists and groups the effect the
psyche.  The list is a starting point for depth psychological
work on the net, exploring and defining its directions.


= Purpose =
The purpose of Psyber-L is to experientially learn about the
psyche in
cyberspace.  All discussion contributes to the group life and
assists
our consciousness of the media, hence a wide range of topics are
suitable. It is the intention that thoughtful discussion about
the
process is part of the discussion.  The comment and learning and
is not
kept separate from the discussions, and forms part of it.

The list is an environment in which its participants can
experiment and learn from experience about the scope of Internet
mailing lists for ethical psychological depth work.  Psyber-L is
forum for individual experiential research, it is requested that
the
list is not used for academic or other research without
permission of
individual members and the Listowner.

To give a sense of the intended direction of the discussions,
here is a sampling of topics that have been, and continue to be
discussed on the list.  There is a continued focus on how these
psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace:

        depth psychology
        leadership in communication networks
        creating communication environments
        gender issues
        imagination
        metaphors
        archetypes
        dreams
        myths
        personal identity
        psychotherapy
        the unconscious
        group dynamics.

The Purpose of the list is further amplified in the PSYBER-L
WELCOME
file sent to all new subscribers and publicly available via email
and on the Web (see below).

* It is important Psyber-L members        *
* become familiar with  the Welcome file. *


= Networking =
Relationships of a collegial nature around our psychological net
interests is an important part of the work. This has developed to
the point where, at times, there is a sense of community
building.
The value, direction and purpose of the emerging connections are
suitable topics for discussion.  Information specifically related
to the purpose of the list is welcome if posted by active
participants of Psyber-L.

Psybernet occasionally email groups known as PsyberGroups.
Details can be found on the Psybernet Web site, and new projects
will be announced in Psyber-L.



= Psyber-L Perameters =
The parameters of the list are set by the list owner, any
to the settings will be clearly notified in the list.  Current
settings:

* Psyber-L is open to all, anyone can sub at any time
  and there is no vetting or verification of identity.

* The list is un-moderated, in the sense that all messages
  are instantly posted, and not pre-viewed in any way.

* The archives are public. They can be viewed by members
  and non-members of the list, by email and on the Web.



= List Owner =
The list is owned by Walter Logeman. Walter is a psychotherapist
in
private practice in Christchurch, New Zealand and the founder of
the Psybernet project which offers online psychologically
oriented consulting services to individuals and organizations.

In addition to setting the parameters of the list, the list owner
has
access to may software settings of the list, and is responsible
for the
INFO and WELCOME files that define the list.

Walter Logeman is a participant on the list.  How the Listowner
performs
the listowner roles may have a profound impact on the
psychological life
of this and other online environments and thus discussion of the
Listowner's style in Psyber-L is important at times.


= Guidelines for Psyber-L members =

Etiquette, ethos and ethics of the list have an impact on the
psychological nature of it, and hence are suitable topics for
discussion in the list.

In the welcome file you will also find links to the key people
and ideas
that inspire the work of this list.

* More important information about the role of List *
* Owner, Guidelines & the people & ideas that offer *
* inspiration for Psyber-L in the Welcome File.     *


= Addresses, Subscription, links =

The Psybernet web pages can be found at:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz
The main address with the large motif.

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm
PsyberGate a gateway to Psyberspace ~ the psychological WWW ~ and
to the
Psybernet web site.  Make this the home page in your browser!  It
is updated
regularly.

~~~

Archives.

The archives can be viewed on the Web at:

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

There is an excellent search facility here so the archives or sub
sections of it, can be explored using any word.


~~~

Access to Psyber-L files via email.

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

is the listserv address.  Send following commands in the body of
the
email to the listserv to get files sent back via email:

INDEX  PSYBER-L
This will return an index of all the files, including the
archives of
the list.

GET PSYBER-L WELCOME
Automatic upon subscription, & available at any time. It is
requested
that all subscribers to the list are familiar with this file.

GET PSYBER-L DESCRIPT
This file.  Latest version can be obtained with this command.
This file
is the main description of the list.  A short version is
available with
the following command:

INFO PSYBER-L

~~~

To SUBSCRIBE to the Psybernet Mailing List:


Send a command to:

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

in the BODY of e-mail:

SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname

For example:

SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith

Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive
confirmation request, please respond to that.  Once you confirm
you will
get an acknowledgement, followed by the PSYBER-L WELCOME.

To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send an email to:

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

In the body of the email write:

SIGNOFF  PSYBER-L

~~~

Subscription can be made from the Web at:

http://www.netspace.org/cgi-bin/lwgate/Psyber-L/

Other commands can be easily executed from there. Archives can be
viewed and searched by email, though access via the Web may be
easier.


~~~

Owner:  Walter Logeman
walter@psybernet.co.nz


Updated:  Friday, 27 March 1998






__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:27:54 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980609155629.007c7c10@easynet.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dolores,

  Re: Ad hominem attacks
  Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:56:29 +0100

> You can't suddenly decide at
> point x that your going to start playing the hard man when you've so far
> rested on your laurels and avoided all issues of confrontation (read flying
> cows) for a good example.

This is not sudden.  Since (flying cows) days i have changed the
description of my role here, and modified the Welcome file to
make it clear that ad hominem attacks are not welcome.  Indeed,
have learnt a lot, and these matters have been out in the open
here.  I know you have been away for part of that process.

The difficulty i had in the earlier times was that I had given
myself the burden of thinking i needed to "facilitate" the
process, and that with "good facilitation" we would get through
this, or even more burdensome, that with good facilitation it
would never have happened.

Now i think of my self as participant, and in that role I put in
my 2c worth.

I am the list owner, and as such the host to this space / place.
My job is to define it in the files, and then to seek adherence
to that.  To enforce it if necessary.  For example i removed
"Varman" from the list.

> I didn't paint any pictures of either J or J. The only pictures I paint are
> of myself. Its the only canvas I can be sure the paint is adhering to
> correctly.

You are right, I got that wrong.

>The bottom line is that the list is more than the sum of the welcome
> file.

True.  The menu in a restaurant is not the meal.

> Sod the spirit of the welcome file in that case, its a
> misrepresentation of what 'actually' goes on here.

If the menu says mushrooms you should get that when you order,
and not pork pie.  My job to see that that happens, and i will do
that as best i can.  Collaboration in this process is
appreciated.  Dolores, it is not a black and white easy task and
if you have ideas on that, feed them in ...

I don't think your post here is a personal attack on me, but it
sure does not feel collaborative either.

> A word cannot be offensive in my eyes or ears.

Yet there are people who are offended here, not purely because
they have a problem with words etc.  When is a series of words an
"ad hominem attack" ?  It is possible to muse on this forever,
and it is not a binary situation.  Yet removing someone from the
list is a binary act!  In the end it is my call, collaboration
appreciated.

~

> What work?? Back to the old labs and rats and mazes?

I have posted the description of Psyber-L and you will see the
word "work" appears several times, defining what the list is for
and about.  It may have somewhat of a jargon ring ...  Sometimes
the "work" is play, and the play is work.

Of course not everyone needs to grasp whole package of the list
description right away, but I have a sense that you do!  I have a
sense that your comment above is a semi-playful jibe?  If so I
don't like it.

> >I request that we search in ourselves for ways to
> >respect others even while angry and hurt.
>
> erm..why?

As human beings ... in the way that we afford some dignity to
criminals etc.  That we separate out "being" and "doing".

> >I request that as list owner, because i want us to honour what is
> >in the files that create Psyber-L, if that is not your wish then
> >please write elsewhere.
>
> Maybe you really meant to say..fuck off?

No.

And i don't want to say that to you!  I think you actually do the
"work" of the list in a fresh and delightful way ... even when it
throws me,  even when you don't think of it as work of the list
at all!  I wish you could see that as well, frustrated when you
don't, so there is a grain of truth.  It is a long way from fuck
off.  Another grain of truth is that i wish the tone of the
adventure was more pleasant, that it did not feel so
"J-weighted"!  But that is not a fuck off either!

Anyway those are my feelings as participant.  As listowner I
think there is a level of attack that is ad hominem, and i wish
that would stop.  I request that with continued dialogue we
continue deal with it.  On that score the buck stops with me.
That is not a fuck of either!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:27:56 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: GBG: hold your horses
In-Reply-To:  <l03130302b1a3734199a7@[38.12.87.200]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Charles,

In the following post:

  GBG: hold your horses
  Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:22:54 -0700

you wrote:


> What I'm proposing is that Walter sets up a separate list under the
> PsyberNet umbrella for the purpose of using specially tailored versions of
> my HipBone Games to explore clear conflicts between two parties, in the
> presence of such other Psyber-L subscribers as accept an invitation to
> join, and with a maximum membership of sixteen.


I like the proposal, and a list has been created.  The discussion
about its form and the charter of it are underway on Psyber-L and
I look forward to putting that together with you Charles as a
list Description and Welcome Charter.

I am still not caught up on all the posts, and that is part of
jet lag, and other lags as i re-enter into life in New Zealand.

I appreciate the questions about my role in this list.  I see it
as host to the list, list owner, and all that the role entails.
To work collaboratively with Charles and Leon Levin create the
sort of space that we think (as a result of wider discussion)
will work.

I also see myself as participant ... and in that regard open to
calls from Charles and Leon in their respective roles.

I will say more as i read the other posts.



Walter
Enthused by the prospect of what is to come ...

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:42:04 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      FREEed the list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

I have just free-ed the list.  I will increase the threshhold,
however it is there as a safeguard against erronious flooding.


____________

> FREE psyber-l

The PSYBER-L list has been freed, 9 files have been released.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:15:31 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: FREEed the list
In-Reply-To:  <3584de05.14928570@mail.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I have no idea what this means technically
but sounds absolutely fantastic!

I'm not sure that I want to know what it means
in hum drum terms either! As a command,
as a post... its computer-human-dictionary collobartive
poetry and its beautiful!

At 13:42 11/06/98 GMT, Walter Logeman wrote:
>All,
>
>
>> FREE psyber-l
>
>The PSYBER-L list has been freed, 9 files have been released.
>
>
>Walter
>


I would like to take this moment to FREE everyone.!

i command thus;

FREE Julienne

FREE Hoon

FREE Walter

FREE Judith

FREE Simon

FREE Robert

FREE Meeseo

FREE Anita

FREE Joanne

FREE Nancy

FREE Dolores

FREE Charles

FREE Myself!

FREE Barry

FREE Varman

FREE Everyone !


(Pity theres not a FUCK command too, think
of the things you could do with that!)



---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
-------------------------
   miles@mail.com
   http://www.webolution.com.au/miles
-------------------------

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:21:18 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Julienne, Anita, Dolores, Simon, all
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne, Anita, Dolores, Simon, all:

A while back, after the idea of ping-pong had come up on the list in
Julienne's fantasy post, and she and Anita had had an exchange including
Julienne's remarks about ping-pong being a good game to play "where one can
get rid of aggression without really hurting anyone", and I'd talked a
little about my own game I guess, and how it might be an interesting tool
to use in conflict resolution, Anita wrote:

> I would like to recommend Charles' game instead of the ping-
> pong. It is the most interesting game I have ever played. There is
> no winners, no losers, all players are winners in some or other
> way.

Thank you for saying that, incidentally, Anita: what a beautiful compliment.

A little later, no doubt after I'd talked some more about my games, Dolores
wrote:

> The glass bead game intriques me, because thinking about it, I
> can't see the point of a game where there is no winner, even tic
> tac toe brings out the worst in me. There has to be a winner or
> there is no point in my playing. I can take defeat, but its the
> competition that enthralls me. Its never a case for me that its not
> the winning but how you play the game. For me its always both,
> and I'm not above cheating. The glass bead game is a game of
> intellectual one upmanship, even if you protest it is not.

LOL Dolores, fine paragraph: you had me howling.  And I'm delighted you'd
like to participate in our games, always assuming they happen.

And then some time later still, after I'd talked some *more* more about my
games, and ping-pong had also been batted across the table any number of
times, Simon -- who had I think been mentioning David Bohm and his system
of Dialogues while chatting with Judith, got hold of a copy of Bohm's
little book on the subject, and started dipping into it and posting quotes
from it, and in his second post said, "Note the ping-pong reference!"

*

Now if we'd been playing a HipBone Game, and Julienne had played
"ping-pong" as the first move -- or even better perhaps, if Anita's quote
above had been the first move, since it includes the idea of win-win
games... with "ping-pong" as the move title...

And if Dolores had played "glass bead game" as the second move, with *her*
quote above as the content of her move, claiming links between the two
moves because (a) both ping-pong and the GBG are games (b) ping-pong unlike
the GBG is honest and up-front about the aggressive nature of play...

Then Simon's "Note the ping-pong reference!" -- which I'm sure had some
excitement and delight to it, not to mention a note of synchronicity --
would have taken the form of a move called "Bohm" or "Dialogue", his move
content could have been these two paragraphs from David Bohm's book:

::  Discussion is almost like a ping-pong game, where people are
::  batting the ideas back and forth and the object of the game is to
::  win or to get points for yourself. Possibly you will take up
::  somebody else's ideas to back up your own - you may agree
::  with some and disagree with others - but the basic point is to
::  win the game. That's very frequently the case in a discussion.

::  In dialogue, however, nobody is trying to win. Everybody wins
::  if anybody wins. There is a different sort of spirit to it. In a
::  dialogue, there is no attempt to gain points, or to make your
::  particular view prevail. Rather, whenever any mistake is
::  discovered on the part of anybody, everybody gains. It's a
::  situation called win-win, whereas the other game is win-lose - if I
::  win, you lose. But a dialogue is something more of a common
::  participation, in which we are not playing a game against each
::  other, but *with* each other. In a dialogue, everybody wins.

and he'd be claiming links to "ping-pong" and Anita's quote (i) because
both mentioned ping-pong and (ii) because both talked about win-win games,
and also (iii) to Dolores' quote because Bohm's description of discussion
fits Dolores' sense that all games are forms of one upmanship soooo nicely.

*

And that, my friends, is as good an example as I could wish for of the way
the games go, of the way they can "concentrate" conversation, of the way
they allow different points of view to play against each other and yet hang
together -- and of the sense of patterning that emerges, and the excitement
of suddenly seeing a move, and so on.

Really nice, and a warm round of applause to Julienne, Anita, Dolores,
Simon and David Bohm...

*

I've met and "dialogued" with Lee Nichol, Simon -- and Saral Bohm, David's
wife, inscribed my copy of David's book *Causality and Chance in Modern
Physics* with David's last words to her, spoken very shortly before he died:

::  It's tantalizing -- I feel that I am on the edge of something.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:45:24 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music
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At 09:08 PM 6/10/98 -0400, Judith wrote:

. the J & J chorus...

Judith, and everyone, please. I am not a part of
another person, and I would appreciate being identified as
myself, and not just as an initialized no-name half-person.

Thank you,

Julienne

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:29:18 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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Hello sc <hoon@APK.NET>, on Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:14:17 -0700 you wrote:

>>I only ask that you respect my
>>difference from you and not insist that my reality be yours.  The
>>"ultimate reality" you perceive may not exist in my universe.
>
>JoAnne, if you've felt disrespected by my didactic pontificating and breeze
>blowing, please know its not my intention to disrespect you or your
>universe. But, logically, don't we have to be in the same universe?

Not all the time.  Your reality and mine can be different.

>>I don't think logic and intuition are dissonant.  In fact, I feel that
>>logic is a very specialized instance of intuition, one that has been
>>borne out with time, because I believe that intuition is involuntary
>>and mysterious pattern-making in the brain.
>
>This is a fascinating conception. 'Logic is a specialized instance of
>pattern-making.' Feel free to share more.

There's hardly anything left to go on about.

Logic is the way things work in the physical world.

Intuition figures out how things work.

Therefore, logic is the way we see things in the physical world working,
and we codify it with symbols and rules, which conform to the way the world
in its physical aspects works.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:29:20 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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Hello sc <hoon@APK.NET>, on Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:30:21 -0700 you wrote:

>JoAnne,
>
>Before I proceed to respond to your thoughtful post, I'm going to nitpick
>on your logic for a sec and  clarify some of my positions.
>
>>Hmm.  Logic was grown in human minds.  Most "natural" reasoning
>>approximates it.  So I would have to disagree with what I think >you're
>>saying, that logic is not a natural mind function.
>
>"Logic" is a natural mind function. "Logic" defined as the systematic,
>'pure' logic. No dispute about that. Natural reason: you'll have to clue me
>in on what "natural reasoning" is today, outside of Aquinas, otherwise:
>"natural reason is praiseworthy, but not sufficient for salvation".

True in both theological and logical discourse, if we are speaking of the
raw element.

>Has any 'sociologician' (!) studied the day-in and day-out reasoning of
>random samples of regular blokes and blokettes? (I know, I have, to some
>extent. <;-] )

And they fall short of ideal.  But they approximate it, approach it, and
that's how we know what the ideal is.  As a marketer you must know
fallacies very well.  They're the staple of modern salesmanship.

For example:  Good, Better, Best.  Which is necessarily the highest praise?

Good.  Good is truly worthy, because it implies some actual good from the
product.

Next comes Better, because it is at least better than something else,
though all may be deficient and not quite Good.

Best says the least, because all others in its class could be precisely as
worthless as it is.

>"There is critical thinking that atomizes and finds value in the reduction
>to assertions and explication of their validity"
>
>your response:
>
>>Do you find value in that, or not?  I do.  Or do you prefer never to
>>know anything logical?  It's your choice, of course.  But it would
>>make balancing the checkbook a royal pain.
>
>What a rhetorical response! Why this tact?

Why not!  Or do you mean tack instead of tact?

You seemed to compare that to the other possibility, and find it unworthy.

>If I find value in critical thinking, would it follow, logically, that it's
>negation ("critical thinking is never valuable") is true...or false? <g>

You seemed to be finding valuelessness in critical thinking -- I seem to
have misunderstood you, and you seem to have misunderstood me.

Critical thinking has its value in the proper places, as does other kinds
of thinking (and judging when to use which is an exercise).

>My goodness! It's valuable when it is applicably so. There happen to be
>cases for which it is not so valuable or valuable at all.  It's not either
>a case of your extremely loaded 'never', 'anything'; (in extremis!) or
>presuming any case is modally inclusive of all cases, especially given the
>way you put it: "Do you find value in that, or not?"

But dear hoon.  I didn't ask, do you find it completely useful in every
situation.  I asked if you find value in it, because it seemed you didn't.
If I'm correct, you are answering me that you do find value in it.  Not all
value, just value.

>So, when I balance my checkbook I do use simple math, but, for the case
>called "ravishing my partner" that kind of logic ends as soon as the right
>sock falls to the floor. I'm astonished you were not sure if I was
>rejecting a very particular logic "in total"

Some people do, some people are very anti-logic.  Sorry if I was hasty in
thinking that you might be that way.

>"Or do you prefer never to know anything logical?"
>
>Why make such a loaded, rhetorical statement? Is logic in need of a
>defense? Different domains have their different logics; yes?

Again, sorry.  What you said seemed to toss logic away as non-human,
unnatural, while I as a human am very interested in logic.  Humans made
logic, therefore it is a very human thing.

I guess I'm responding to the negative picture people have of those who use
logic.  Cold.  Nasty.  Unfeeling.  Computers in tennis shoes.  Well, my
shoes are off.

>you write,
>
>>Do you believe that most interpersonal relating has no logical
>>component whatsoever?  That there can be no facts?
>
>But, I didn't suggest "most interpersonal relating has no logical component
>whatsoever" so why do you wonder if I might believe so? My statement was
>clear enough, and comprehensive.

It wasn't clear enough to me, or I wouldn't have responded as I did.

>(I stated: "to, or represent some sort of rigorous truthmaking as the
>principal reality of such interpersonal discourses is an, ironically,
>illogical reduction")

When the actions or words of another are made into the "principal reality"
of a relationship, then rigorous truthmaking has some role, I think.  If
someone insists on a truth that does not exist, then is that truth of any
value?

Might not rigorous truthmaking serve to highlight the things that are not
logical, and therefore if the nonlogical is the heart of the discourse,
make it more plain and visible?

An example: if you like pudding, smile when someone gives you pudding,
except when person X hands you pudding, then logic would say, ah.  An
exception.  It's not the pudding.  There must be some other reason.

And you may protest, no, I don't like pudding.  Yet you smile at every
other person who gives you pudding, and eat it happily, and smile while you
make it for yourself and eat it.

>You write:
>
>"Of course we can't make any reductionist predictions about human behavior.
>The system is too complex."
>
>Sure you can. You just have to throw out the effects which aren't warranted
>by the pertinent behavior one wishes to predict. Pare away the system's
>complexity to gain some utility.

That works to some degree.  But is not the thing in interpersonal
relationships, unless you like statistical methods in the humanities.

>We marketer's do it all the time.
>Statistical modelling of consumer behavior may create very workable
>projections of future behavior. In fact the generalizing of such powerful
>regressions is fairly *logical* evidence that we can make some types of
>accurate reductionist predictions about human behavior.

But statistics often falls down when confronted with individuals.  E.g. the
average family with 2.3 children.  It does not tell us what the individual
is really about with enough certainty.

>And marketing gets such a bad name...:-(

It's great for groups of people.  I'm dealing with people as individuals.

>But here's the nub:
>
>>I have mostly avoided actual emotional arguing here, in favor of >what
>>many would probably call "nitpicking." As in, I don't believe >the things
>>that the other person is saying as truth and as support >for certain
>>arguments, and feel I can show that the things are >wrong. Maybe it's
>>irrelevant to 99 percent of the human race, but >it's relevant to me, and
>>at least one other person I know of.
>
>At least you're not alone!
>
>This strikes me as an admission of a Quixotic urge. On one hand "most
>natural reasoning approximates it [logic], on the other hand your
>nitpicking you admit yourself, may be "irrelevent to 99 percent of the
>human race". (Presumably those same persons for whom natural reasoning
>approximates logic.) You would think they'd be grateful!

These are two different things.  Mining tools are not useless, but that
doesn't mean people will applaud my efforts to dig diamonds from clay.

>So what comes first, the truth or the arguement? Why do you say "believe"
>and "feel"; what possibly could either have to do with verification in
>terms of the application of logic? (I realize I may be falsely inferring
>that your nitpicking has to do with logic. I've noted your nitpicking.)

I can have beliefs and feelings about events which also have roots in a
logical reality.  And I can have beliefs and feelings about someone else's
representation of something as a logical reality.

>But this nub ain't about logic:
>
>"E.g.
>"you are angry because you had no emotional support during your
>father's death."  Not only is it logically inconclusive, but the
>premise of the argument is wrong."
>
>Let's see:
>
>(1) A person is angry
>(2) A person received no emotional support
>(during their)
>(3) father's death
>
>This should be subjected to logical analysis if someone should assert (1)
>is caused by (2) & (3)?

As you say, someone makes the assertion that if 2 and 3 are true, they
caused 1.  I know of no rule of emotion, logic, psychology or science that
makes 2 and 3 necessarily result in 1.  Do you?

Another error is an error of fact:  presuming 2 is correct.  Logic working
on false premises will not produce valid conclusions.  So even if 2 and 3
are correct, 1 is not necessarily going to be the result.

>Wasn't it you who wrote:
>
>"When a man hits another man there are no bruises, only he said/he said?  I
>find that reduction just as poor as the reduction to only logical elements."
>
>? Exactly. Poor...as in: impovershed.

Yes, exactly.  Exactly what I meant.  You need both the emotional component
and the logical component to understand the situation.

>But the nub: such logic is incapable if all it can do is show the premise
>to be wrong in the face of the logic of a father
>
>dieing.

Such logic is not sufficient to face a father dying, of course not.  But
such logic is sufficient to face a diagnosis of "you are angry because you
got no support when your father died."

>I wonder what the logic is that drives compassion and atonement?
>
>(So much time I have spent with people trying to unwed them from their cold
>logic,
>
>logic which has interfered with the *natural* workings of the
>
>heart.)

I don't waste logic on the heart, it would be poor, impoverished as you
say.  But when someone is trying to make a logical argument about me, and
fails on logical premises and uses faulty premises, it is an insult to
logic and a misrepresentation of me.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:24:19 -0600
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Julienne,

> Judith, and everyone, please. I am not a part of
> another person, and I would appreciate being identified as
> myself, and not just as an initialized no-name half-person.

You are indeed a full person with a name and deserve to be talked to as
such.  However, in reading Judith's post, I didn't see this as a
diminishing of "you".  The focus is on "chorus", not on the letter "J".
The overall imagery, the holistic thought of Psyber-L as a musical, a
vocal symphony.

I also think that it is important to begin referring to you without
association to JoAnne, and to speak of/to JoAnne without immediate
bonding of her name with yours.  This is not a "psyber-l vs J&J" soap
opera.

Robert

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:44:43 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      ignore this.  it's only that silly logical nitpicking JoAnne
              again.
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:38:02
-0400 you wrote:

>JoAnne, this is one of the posts where you suggested I shouldn't
>be around normal society while grieving.

Really?  How do you get that from this:

>It's a matter of degree.  Julienne should not just "disappear."  But as you
>say, the person in mourning does not go out and gloom and doom all over
>every event, weeping at the amusement park.
>
>You can't get in an argument saying "here I am, a full participant, ready
>to kick ass," and then when the going gets tough revert to "stop picking on
>me, I'm in mourning and grief, I lost 37 animals and my mommy and daddy and
>two friends" as an answer.  That's dishonest, even if it's not consciously
>so.  You know you won't take losing an argument well, why get in one?  Why
>pull that kind of stunt?  If you can't make it clear that you aren't fit
>for real arguments before starting one, that's putting people in a trick
>bag.

I guess it supports your contention just as well as this supports your idea
that I had no support after my father's death:

>I didn't expect everyone on earth to want to know that my father had just
>died, that August of 1992, or that everyone I met would want to deal with
>it.  I didn't expect the cashier at the supermarket to treat me specially
>and I didn't make a point of bringing it up to her.  If I felt I couldn't
>do something I just didn't do it.
>
>I spent as much time as possible with family and friends who did care.  It
>would hurt me, and upset others, for me to be needy in a place where those
>needs can't possibly be met.  I stayed out of nasty situations, I stayed
>out of trying arguments, I stayed out of competitive situations.  This was
>an important part of healing, it kept me from being opened up again every
>second.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:48:56 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: ignore this.  it's only that silly logical nitpicking JoAnne
              again.
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At 03:44 AM 6/11/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:

>>It's a matter of degree.  Julienne should not just "disappear."  But as you
>>say, the person in mourning does not go out and gloom and doom all over
>>every event, weeping at the amusement park.

I see. Like I felt like going to an amusement park after both my parents
and 2
close friends died, and 4 of my llamas and 36 other animals were killed
within the space of one year. Tell me, JoAnne, where would it be appropriate
for me to appear so that I don't spoil all your fun, poor dear?  It's 6
months
now since my father died...just where, in the JoAnne Universe, would you
allow me to go?

What the hell does "silly logical nitpicking" have to do with this?

Have you thought of making regular appearances at funerals to
hand out flyers on your special guidelines for handling grief?

Would you be happier if I had jumped on a funeral pyre with them
so you wouldn't be bothered?
How about:
JoAnne's Mourning Laws:

*No mourner is to appear in public until able to control tears.
*No displays of grief are allowed whether spoken or written -
and such expressions will be seen as mere self-indulgence.
*No mourner is to bother non-mourners at public functions.
*Mourners are to move to the sidewalks (as you suggested I do)
so as not to interrupt the normal flow of life for others.
*Mourners must not expect empathy or kindness - they must
realize they are public nuisances.
*The mourner is not to go out at all, preferably.
*There must be no appearance of gloom or doom from
the bereaved.
*Anyone who expresses sadness over the death of someone
s/he loved is to be ridiculed and shamed and accused of soliciting
support from others who have no interest in being bothered.
*Finally, laws are in the works to band the mention of death at
all, upon pain of death.

Thank heavens for Dylan Thomas's poem for his father:

"Rage! Rage! Against the dying of the light!

Julienne

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Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:00:20 -0600
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HooN, JoAnne,

Just an observation that comes from "eavesdropping".

SC>Has any 'sociologician' (!) studied the day-in and day-out reasoning
of
SC>random samples of regular blokes and blokettes? (I know, I have, to
some
SC>extent. <;-] )

JS> And they fall short of ideal.  But they approximate it, approach it,
and
JS> that's how we know what the ideal is.

My observation would be that there is no ideal, but that there is an
archetype from which we can see the blend of all bloke and blokette
reasoning patterns; the archetypal bloke reasoning pattern, the
archetypal blokette reasoning pattern.  Numinous, not able to be
"defined", captured by our rationality.

Robert

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Date:         Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:05:29 +1200
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From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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At 03:29 11/06/98 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
>Hello sc <hoon@APK.NET>, on Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:14:17 -0700 you wrote:

>>>I don't think logic and intuition are dissonant.  In fact, I feel that
>>>logic is a very specialized instance of intuition, one that has been
>>>borne out with time, because I believe that intuition is involuntary
>>>and mysterious pattern-making in the brain.
>>
>>This is a fascinating conception. 'Logic is a specialized instance of
>>pattern-making.' Feel free to share more.
>
>There's hardly anything left to go on about.


Hold it up just a second. ( Sorry, but you're right this posting thing
does have its 'more-ish' qualities.. )

I think there is a very lot to talk about. Sure this is a subject
that seems to be already explored, but I dunno. I still find it
interesting.

>Logic is the way things work in the physical world.
>
>Intuition figures out how things work.

Well,, I dunno. How can we keep believing that Logic is the
underlying structure of the world, when we have the whole
Godel , " every  sufficiently complex logical system must
have a truth that is true within that system but yet impossible
to prove " thing ? Well.. I mean I haven't read Godel, Escher and Bach
yet (probably should)

But it seems to me that this idea that logic is inherent and complexity
is derived from it is around the wrong way.

Like the idea used to be that
the basic underlying rules are logical and simple
because how else can they be ... that when you get down
to a sufficently fundamental level things will either be true or
false. That the whole 'fuzziness', 'uncertainty' thing
only happens when you are in a situation that is
sufficiently complex that you can't be bothered enumerating
every relevant but tiny little fact.

I don't this is right, and I reckon, in a very vague
and un-educated way that complexity and fuzziness is underlying
and simplicity and logical truths are derived from that.

Sure its all pretty irrelvant, but sometimes we make the mistake
of applying our conceptions of a logical universe
where it doesn't apply.

Like when they first invented computers the thought was that
being incredibly logical (and given that the universe is logical)
they would have a head start on us with our complicated
and unnecessarily illogical and fuzzy brains. That soon
(as depicted in sci-fi at the time) computers would be both
more intelligent than us and also more capable than us, wandering
around as robots.

The tragic truth is that, so far, they have remained both incapable
of intuition as well as virtually incapable of interacting directly with
the 'real' world.

>Therefore, logic is the way we see things in the physical world working,
>and we codify it with symbols and rules, which conform to the way the world
>in its physical aspects works.


I would *like* to think, though I might be wrong that the world
is made up of symbols, and that its these symbols themselves that are
real, and their physical resonations that are the derivation.

The doesn't make the universe any less real... without evidence
to the contrary I am prepared to agree that we are both
living in the 'same' universe (though some would disagree)
but maybe, just maybe, we are as off the mark about the order of things
in the universe as they were in the European middle ages with their
whole Gods and Devils and rotating spheres thing. ;-)

What the hey.


---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
-------------------------
   miles@mail.com
   http://www.webolution.com.au/miles
-------------------------

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:43:27 -0700
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Subject:      Re: Truth
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JoAnne wrote:

>Logic was grown in human minds.

>Logic is the way things work in the physical world.

???

***

Really I have no idea what/how things work.

imo and in my universe, logic is nifty, albeit not powerful enough to
bridge the gap, evidently, between the knowledge of the "way things work"
and stuff about which it might be stated: "We don't waste logic on it".

***

When you tack (<-wordplay intended!) on 'in the physical world,' is it a
qualifier?

Are there things anywhere else aside or separate from the 'physical world'
and the things in it?

In what world does "I don't waste logic on the heart" make sense?

Is the physical world altered by any or all other worlds?

***

How does the *heart* work?

Why *do* ants march around salt?

***


HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:48:03 +1200
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From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: FREEed the list
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Hi Miles

> FREE Barry

I'm not cheap, and I'm not free.  But I am on special this week.

Great to see you here, Miles.

Barry
____________________________________
Barry Kennedy<kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:24:50 -0700
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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Yo Miles,

>Well,, I dunno. How can we keep believing that Logic is the
>underlying structure of the world, when we have the whole
>Godel , " every  sufficiently complex logical system must
>have a truth that is true within that system but yet impossible
>to prove " thing ?

I always thought this was as much an example of logic's power to root out
inconsistencies; logic isn't disproved by Godel, nor made less effective
certainly.

***

As for "logic underlying structure" ... ???

Is logic an abstracted symbolization sufficient enough to allow us to
depict the operationalism of higher order symbol systems?

This is a modest claim for logic but it at least allows one to hope
*structure underlies structure* .

Ha! One can hope!

***

There are severe limitations imposed on completeness of 'logical
explanation'. This is a paradox. Real world illustration is simple enough.
Think of one 'thing' which isn't completely explained as a matter of Logic.

Okay, now think of one 'thing' that has been completely explained. But,
before you deliver this latter exemplar to me, please, above all, make sure
the explanation is complete.

Because if the explanation isn't complete it will be hard for me to
*logically* determine if it truly conforms to the way the thing works...

umm, in the physical world, dat is.

(btw, one of my logic teachers put it to me this way: "Remember, when you
prove a premise invalid you know less than you did when you thought
differently.")

***

sophistry *is* the best policy,

HooN

hint - think like an ant

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:53:12 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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Julienne,

> I did not come on this List to do "work".

I have posted the description, and discussed this more in the
post to Dolores ... you mentioned elsewhere that on your list
there is not the processing and that it was a list for
professional discussion.  Here the processing is integral the
professional discussion.

What do you see as the purpose of this list?  If not the work of
the list, what brings you here?


You feel that i am impersonal with you ... and give an example:

> Let me illustrate what I mean:
>
> Say a woman came to you for money for food, and you were in charge
> of a community fund for such emergencies. My feeling is that, if the fund
> was temporarily empty, and not to be replenished until Monday, you would
> not advance her the money, even though there were also a little back-up
> emergency fund.

I am aware that in another thread from about a week or so ago I
am in the midst of a dialogue with you.  You wrote the last post
to me ... I have not responded, partly time, but mostly that I
felt too despairing, that is typical of what happens in my
dialogue with you ... I despair and loose connection ...

However it is not the case in this post right now, nor in the
more recent post where you take on faith  that i am genuine in my
desire to work with the shadow aspects.

I do loose connection ... and thus i can understand that you then
feel the coldness and distance.  I will endeavour in the next few
days to pick up on some of those ... cold ... threads.  I recall
feeling hurt, attacked, angry, misunderstood ... and the loss of
hope that i can continue fruitfully.

> I am hoping that you receive this as I hope I am sending it - as my
> attempt to interpret my experience of you on this list, not to complain
> or hurt, but to describe what is missing for me.

I experience myself as having taken you in that vein.  Is that
how i come across to you?

The more difficult moments are to come when i return to the now
older posts ... which I look forward to doing, and i hope we can
continue in this manner.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:01:04 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Thanks
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19980602121707.007222e0@wn.planet.gen.nz>
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Miles

I am replying to:

Re: Ad hominem attacks
Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:17:07 +1200

Thanks for your warm and generous post, and i feel seen and
appreciated by you!  Wonderful.  I like the way you go into
detail about the things you see me do here.  It helps!

> What I want to do right now is
> to defend poor old Walter here for a second.

I want to add here that while this is unpaid work, I choose to do
it, and that i do not feel a martyr in the situation.  What is in
it for me?

Several things:
One is that i am getting as much or more than i put in.  Personal
& professional.  The experience is enriching.  I have paricipated
in other forums and they have not had the "exploration of the
depth of the psyche in cs" on the agenda in the way that I
wanted, so this list suits me.  The other lists and fuorums were
fine, but had other agendas.

Two, that while this list is not paid employmnet it is part of
Psybernet -- and the co in my address is the equivalent of com
... psybernet.com.  I want this work to be sustainable for me
financially.  For me it is that way around, i want to do this
work, and for that to sustain me, so i can sustain the work.  If
i were more business oriented it would be a case of what work
could i do that would make money.

At the conference I listened to the owner of Net Noir, and how he
gears the "community" to be such that he gets the most revenue
from his banner adds.  I found that anathma, and part of the
current abasement of the word community.

Yet i am a professional in the area of the psyche, and it is an
interesting question, posed in the description of the list, how
we can do ethical depth work here in cs, in a professional
capacity.  At the Harvard conference this whole question of
economics on the internet was to the fore.  It seems that many
parts of the net exists today on the hope that it will sustain us
one day.  Perhaps it can exist like that for a long time?

> I think we owe everyone who has put the time
> into creating this list for what it is a vote of thanks,
>
> So thanks everyone !

I will second that!  Thanks to all who contribute.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:43:56 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Some quick points..
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Judith
you wrote to Julienne:

> I continue to be awed (seems there is alot of that going on
> in my life at the moment) by what you bring here and even for me the J&J
> experience has been different than what has been spoken here...I have my
> own *take* on what I see and trust both of you and dare I say the word
> process :-)

Which gives me heart ...


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:33:13 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: reflections on space
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Judith

you wrote in response to Simon:

> Thanks for bringing Bohm and dialogue to this space...so much good stuff
> going on here

Inspired to learn more I found this ... looks good.  Printed it
out to give it a closer read, when i get thru the posts here!

http://www.muc.de/~heuvel/dialogue/dialogue_proposal.html#1


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:02:22 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Taking care of Psyber business
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Judith,

you wrote to Nancy:

> yes the healing process
> continues and each and every wish feeds me and for that I am in awe of
> being held here.

Which prompts me to add my wishes for your wellness.
"Something's Coming" ... I have always thought that the song
captures the anticipation of the romance that was in the original
Shakespeare version ...

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:19:07 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: GBG: Decision time
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Charles,

I am still working hard to catch up on the posts, and have a
batch of half completed posts in the outbox awaiting more work,
as i read the list.

However i can make one aside and a quick point here:

> Making sure that Psyber-L was not "fragmented" by the presence of another
> list would be a very important consideration -- but it's one I think we
> must certainly face if Walter's PsyberNet project is to develop to the
> point where Psyber-L is a "foyer" with other, often more private / more
> intense, "e-spaces" branching off from it for specific explorations of
> aspects of psyche in cyberspace...  Making sure that such a fragmentation
> doesn't happen would be an important part of the detailing of the "rules of
> engagement" in the initial "set up" phase.

Aside:  I have been thinking Psyber-L, with its complex agenda,
would not make a good "foyer" and would best be a more
specialised list in its own right ... that is just a thought ...
but on my mind as we move into these interesting times.

The quick point I wanted to make is that perhaps we (one of the
Resolution Group (?) members could send a weekly "postcard" to
Psyber-L, one which was first posted in the closed group to
ensure it did not breach the desired level of confidentiality.


Walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:52:31 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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Subject:      Re: FREEed the list
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Miles

> FREE Everyone !
>
>
> (Pity theres not a FUCK command too, think
> of the things you could do with that!)


Wheee!  (that is a laugh of sorts!)  Miles, a lovely post.


walter

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:15:32 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Julienne, Anita, Dolores, Simon, all
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Charles,

>Then Simon's "Note the ping-pong reference!" -- which I'm sure had some
>excitement and delight to it, not to mention a note of synchronicity --
>would have taken the form of a move called "Bohm" or "Dialogue", his move
>content could have been these two paragraphs from David Bohm's book:

Yes, you're right about the excitement and delight - at the synchronicity
and also the serendipity as much as anything. I love it when links flow
together. The quotes weren't absolutely the first words I found, but
neither did I have to hunt for them - they just 'fell into place'.

Charles, thanks for laying out the example game-played-without-realising-it
(wihout me realising it, anyway!). It really conveys to me a sense of what
the GBG (or HBG?) is about, so much more than the more abstract descriptive
stuff - though that's necessary too. It seems to be a more formalised
version of some of what already goes on here, then (in fact, some of what
already goes on in all our lives, I guess - those fortuitous linkings
opening out new possibilities, new understandings).

I did read Hesse's novel when I was 18 or 19, in fact I can remember
reading it on the bus, travelling to and from work each day - at that time,
my first job! My memories of it are vague now, but I remember that I
enjoyed and valued it (also 'Siddhartha', a somewhat different book of
his), and your example game, though rooted in *here*,  triggers some
recalled sense of my fascination and excitement in the reading. Maybe some
of my pleasure in seeing and making connections comes from that, on an
unconscious level.


>::  Discussion is almost like a ping-pong game, where people are
>::  batting the ideas back and forth and the object of the game is to
>::  win or to get points for yourself. Possibly you will take up
>::  somebody else's ideas to back up your own - you may agree
>::  with some and disagree with others - but the basic point is to
>::  win the game. That's very frequently the case in a discussion.
>
>::  In dialogue, however, nobody is trying to win. Everybody wins
>::  if anybody wins. There is a different sort of spirit to it. In a
>::  dialogue, there is no attempt to gain points, or to make your
>::  particular view prevail. Rather, whenever any mistake is
>::  discovered on the part of anybody, everybody gains. It's a
>::  situation called win-win, whereas the other game is win-lose - if I
>::  win, you lose. But a dialogue is something more of a common
>::  participation, in which we are not playing a game against each
>::  other, but *with* each other. In a dialogue, everybody wins.
>
>and he'd be claiming links to "ping-pong" and Anita's quote (i) because
>both mentioned ping-pong and (ii) because both talked about win-win games,
>and also (iii) to Dolores' quote because Bohm's description of discussion
>fits Dolores' sense that all games are forms of one upmanship soooo nicely.

I wasn't being as deliberate as this, nor, I guess, as focussed. In fact,
the ping-pong connection was like the icing on the large cake of the full
quote. Delicious, though!
Perhaps what you're saying here is that the making of the link reveals and
highlights deeper connections and motivations?

Also, Bohm's talk of win-win and win-lose connected, for me, to my recent
reply to John re revealing of truth.


>And that, my friends, is as good an example as I could wish for of the way
>the games go, of the way they can "concentrate" conversation, of the way
>they allow different points of view to play against each other and yet hang
>together -- and of the sense of patterning that emerges, and the excitement
>of suddenly seeing a move, and so on.


Yes, I see that the GBG is much more focussed than psyber-l. I value the
larger, less formalised, less 'deliberate' and structured flow of this
list, but I can sense there is a value to the other way as well. It does
seem like it could be exciting!


>Really nice, and a warm round of applause to Julienne, Anita, Dolores,
>Simon and David Bohm...

David Bohm as virtual psyber-l participant. I love it! Truly he lives on
through his words...


>I've met and "dialogued" with Lee Nichol, Simon -- and Saral Bohm, David's
>wife, inscribed my copy of David's book *Causality and Chance in Modern
>Physics* with David's last words to her, spoken very shortly before he died:
>
>::  It's tantalizing -- I feel that I am on the edge of something.

Excellent! Links flowering all around! And what a lovely final quote; it
seems to sum up the questing spirit of the man, that sense of perpetual
curiosity and excitement that comes through in his writings, always
tantalised by possibilities just around the corner, by what could be...

I'm not sure what words I'll utter on my way out - "It was never enough.",
maybe... or perhaps: "It was all too much."!

I remember feeling sad when I heard that he'd died. He worked in London, at
Birkbeck College, and I never got to hear him speak, or to meet him...
Possibilities lost. I felt the same when Krishnamurti died, moreso in fact;
I went to some talks he gave at three days of large gatherings in Brockwood
Park many years ago, but still it doesn't answer the wondering of 'Now what
would he say to this, this, and this?" on an individual level. This is
something I still feel with my father, even though he died 17 years ago; he
had such a wonderful intellectual curiosity about things - I'm sure I got
my own sense of curiosity and wonderment from him... He worked for IBM for
many years as an exhibition designer, designed the Cybernetic Serendipity
exhibition at the ICA in the sixties and the original computing gallery at
the Science Museum in the seventies, and was researching a book on the life
and work of Charles Babbage when he fell ill... More possibilities lost.
Such is the way of things, eh?

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:15:02 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: The sound of gagging..
In-Reply-To:  <19980611024533.AKG15516@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dear all,

Miles - Remind me to hire you if I ever get caught table dancing in a bar
in soho by the papparazzi. By the time you finished with me, I'd come out
more saintly than mother Theresa, and ther reason I'd had money being
thrust in my g-string would be of course be in the best interests of
collecting money for the poor Orphans and starving children of the world. I
share your sentiments in part that Walter should be applauded for making
the list in the first place. Not sure I would have fawned on for quite so
long though.

Julienne, sometimes I think, you don't think before you go off firing all
barrels. The J & J thing I started was not a personal attack, its cos I
can't spell your names. I still want for some reason to put a H in Joannes
name and I probably spelt that wrong too. Yours reminds me of shredded
carrots, I have to keep going to look it up, so I cheated and put J & J.
Don't take umbrage at this, its purely me being lazy. I don't apologise for
being lazy, I apologise for losing so many brain cells that my capacity for
retention of things like the spelling of names, which was never too good in
the first place is now practically non existant.

In a strange and gruding way, I'm getting very fond of both you and Joanne.
btw I don't see you as names I see you as people, very distinct people. I
also see you as not dissimilar. Its kind of like the way I view my brother
in law and me. If you assigned some lables and said these are x personality
traits, my brother in law would be an o and so would I. My husband and his
wife would be Y's. Now you can stick the two o's together, and you can
stick the o's and y's together, but you try sticking the two Y's in the
same room together for long, and  and thats a recipe for disaster. My
brother in law and I are so similar, so selfish and stubborn and used to
getting our own ways, that in close proximity to each other, we will act
like we act round our undemanding and patient y's, only we don't get away
with it so readily, neither of us is prepared to give way, so stalemate and
feathers fly.
I think thats whats happening here, your both, stubborn, tenacious,
defencive and indignant by degrees. You would have made perfect sisters.
Maybe imperfect sisters.
I am glad you are all the above things, at least I imagine I would not get
my ass bored off by being around you both as individuals. You have life,
you try to stand up for yourselves. You don't want to be squashed by
anothers opinions. I admire that. Just sometimes I wish you'd take, as my
dear departed Uncle would say to me..Deep breaths.

I have no desire to chant mantras to the harmonious gods of peace, I would
much rather be in a place of agitation than a place of stillness, if you
weren't here I'd probably get bored with the nicety of it all.

Incidentally, I don't want to fit into a community. The thoughts quite
repugnant. Puts me in mind of that old film The Time machine, where the
community sit blissfully happy till the day they get eaten by the hairy
albino things.

I'm probably anti-social.


Love


Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:21:46 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: a baby rant
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Robert

> I'm having a new set of trials added to my life.  Just as I approach the
> end of my sick leave/sabbatical for mental health, there are many events
> at my place of work which are discouraging me

Sounds like hard work, difficult times. A baby rant ... where a
big rant might be called for.

All the best with it Robert ...


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:05:08 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: reflections on space
In-Reply-To:  <3581b115.136340004@mail.ihug.co.nz>
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>Judith
>
>you wrote in response to Simon:
>
>> Thanks for bringing Bohm and dialogue to this space...so much good stuff
>> going on here
>
>Inspired to learn more I found this ... looks good.  Printed it
>out to give it a closer read, when i get thru the posts here!
>
>http://www.muc.de/~heuvel/dialogue/dialogue_proposal.html#1
>
>
>Walter

Walter,

I was going to post some Bohm/dialogue-related URLs that I've found on my
web-side travels, but though I'd delay a bit after the quote posts - didn't
want to bombard everyone! However, as you're interested in learning more,
and perhaps some others here are too, here goes:


Dialogue process:
http://www.unisg.ch/~sgzz/links/stp/lo/dialogue.htm


David Bohm address on dialogue - Dialogue: A Proposal:
http://world.std.com/~lo/bohm/0000.html


Learning-org - dialogue on learning organisations:
http://world.std.com/~lo/


An interview with David Bohm (information about tapes)
http://152.175.1.205/TVBohm.html


People featured in the Mystic Fire catalogue (Bohm):
http://152.175.1.205/NIPeople.html#Bohm


NADA - interview with David Bohm:
http://www.burgoyne.com/pages/nada/planet/dbohm.htm

(do check this one out especially; interestingly, it's more a dialogue than
an interview in the traditional Q & A sense)


Dialogue: A Proposal (Bohm, Factor, Garrett):
http://flp.cs.tu-berlin.de:1895/related/BOHM-1.htm


Interconnectedness - Perspective from Physicist David Bohm:
http://www.eagle-net.org/zionosphere/ESCAPING%20BABYLON/Alternative%20Resources/
Energy/Holographic%20Universe/bohm.html


It's worth backing up the pathway on the Heuvel URL, too; more good stuff
there.

Also, there's a Bohm_Dialogue mailing list (wish I'd discovered this one
earlier!):

Anyone wants to sub, it's bohm_dialogue-request@cis.plym.ac.uk

and in the body of the message put: subscribe bohm_dialogue

Seems to be fairly low traffic, but might be a quiet patch, as someone
mentions 14+ MB of messages, more than half since January 98!

My impression so far is that it would make good companion reading to this
list for some here.

A couple of quickie quotes from two posts:

>> The question for dialogue is: What blocks the sense of flow? And can
>> there be an awareness of the blocks as they occur?
>>
>> One suggestion is that the flow is blocked by fragmentary thought. Does
>anybody want to develop this suggestion further?


>.........but perhaps there are times when fragmentation leads to new
>levels of awareness.
>
>Can fragmentation lead to an "evolving whole" or greater sense of mutual
>purpose?


(Oops, *now* who's bringing other lists here!)


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:15:09 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Playing Scrabble with Walter
In-Reply-To:  <357fa7a3.1004343@mail.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Walter,

Imagine baby Walter, and baby Dolores, sat in their diapers in a nice warm
room, their little tummies full of milk, sucking their thumbs dribbling and
gurgling happily.
Along comes Mother. She drops two piles of building blocks in front of Baby
Walt and Baby Dolores. Baby Walt starts building his tower. He does it
slowly, methodically, precisely, analysing each level carefully. Baby
Dolores assaults her blocks, stacks them haphazzardly and sees what works
best. She knocks down blocks and towers and starts over and over till she
figures out whats right. Baby Walt is building slowly - but surely. Baby
Dolores gets impatient, her tower is standing, even if its leaning at an
agle that would put the one in Pisa to shame, its not as firmly built as
Walters is going to be, still hers is standing of sorts, she got there
quicker and faster she's getting impatient and bored, she wasnts to move
off onto the next thing. Meanwhile Walter is redefining the golden Mean and
analysing cubic space, and working out how the blocks can work in harmony
with each other. She wants to pick him up and shake him til his teeth
rattle, cos he's not moving fast enough or efficiantly enough for her. She
picks up one of her blocks and hurls it at Walters tower. Walters tower
shakes a little, but its firmly built, it only wobbles. In the process baby
Dolores more than likely nudges her tower slightly and the whole thing
topples over. Baby Dolores bangs it back together again, sits and grins at
it triumphantly and baby Walter continues stacking bricks.

There is a serenity about Walter I appreciate, a desire to live life
balanced I admire and to be good to all people and all things. Maybe a bit
of that could do with rubbing off on me.
I do wonder if Walter every gets angry. I suspect its easy to hurt him, but
that he can cover that well by forgiveness. He is I imagine a gentle man.
but I wonder if he comes out fur flying, gloves on. Sometimes its good to
scratch and claw and rant and rave. Sometimes its good to listen to the
stillness inside and lean on that. Its never good to be all the time, one
thing or another. Balance is everything.
Walter could do with a sprinkle of stacking his bricks quickly as much as I
could do with stacking mine methodically, but we aren't made that way. We
are different people, we tackle problems differently, I'm not saying Walter
your an asshole, I am saying Walter hurry up and build your bricks, I want
to play a different game now. Walter is calm waters, mine are agitated and
churning. What frustrated me is that Walter is in charge of the damn and
its backing up and he's moving more slowly than the flood alert allowed.
No problem, two people, two ways of viewing things, of coming to maybe the
same kind of towers in the end but I would be wrong in not saying Walter,
hurry up, do something, I'm getting frustrated and any second now I'm going
to throw a tantrum. As wrong as Walter would be in not saying, hang on a
second I'm thinking about this. What annoyed me was that Walter stuck his
head in the sand, like the proverbial Ostritch, maybe Kiwi would be more
appropriate in this case, and refused to stick it out again till everything
had quietened down.

I think my idea of hell would be playing scrabble with Walter, I'd be
sitting in silent frustration waiting for him to move - among other things.
He'd be frustrated that I would have my turn the second he finished his,
and he wouldn't have time to think about the next move, so he'd take more
time, and I'd grow more frustrated. Self perpetuating agony for both of us.

You should have bought that Hat Walter. Maybe I should buy a nice serene
bonnet, or whip myself up a quick halo out of a coathanger and a bit of
neon tubing. Probably both would do us some good.

Love

Dolores

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:19:27 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: The sound of gagging..
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980611131502.007c9100@easynet.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dolores,

> Incidentally, I don't want to fit into a community. The thoughts quite
> repugnant. Puts me in mind of that old film The Time machine, where the
> community sit blissfully happy till the day they get eaten by the hairy
> albino things.

I love it.

Just as i have been writing a little piece on How to Avoid
Community ... but this puts my efforts to shame!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:36:19 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: a baby rant
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes, Robert,

I like to think of it as following the Reese's Pieces...don't forget to
take your sense of humor and above all IMHO have fun.

Best,
Judith
>What synchronicity!  Just as we are about to delve into the world of
>conflict resolution, I find myself now needing to mediate conflict
>between my sons and the school, between my wife and the school
>administration, and find myself at one of the conflict poles.  Then,
>comes Simon's posts concerning David Bohm's book ON DIALOGUE.  I begin
>to think that maybe I am supposed to become part of the GBG.  Anger from
>the past mixing with present events that also evoke anger ... mixing the
>past and present and getting stuck.
>
>> you have my deepest empathy and I trust your integrity in
>> rising to the occasion...who was it that said "give 'em hell?"
>
>I think that it was my wife who said that :)  And she also expects this
>to be done with integrity .... now to separate the past from the present
>....
>
>Robert
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:40:17 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes, Julienne, I know you as an individual person...in the musical metaphor
there is definitely a rift using a jazz term going on between you,
Julienne, and she, JoAnne...

Judith, tiptoeing thru the tulips



>At 09:08 PM 6/10/98 -0400, Judith wrote:
>
>. the J & J chorus...
>
>Judith, and everyone, please. I am not a part of
>another person, and I would appreciate being identified as
>myself, and not just as an initialized no-name half-person.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Julienne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:48:14 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: reflections on space
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

[My apologies if this has already been received once on the list. I sent it
about 45 minutes ago but it hasn't echoed back, although a few other posts
have come through; usually I get posts echoed straight away. Please delete
if it's a duplicate - of course, please delete both copies if you're so
inclined! -- Simon]


>Judith
>
>you wrote in response to Simon:
>
>> Thanks for bringing Bohm and dialogue to this space...so much good stuff
>> going on here
>
>Inspired to learn more I found this ... looks good.  Printed it
>out to give it a closer read, when i get thru the posts here!
>
>http://www.muc.de/~heuvel/dialogue/dialogue_proposal.html#1
>
>
>Walter

Walter,

I was going to post some Bohm/dialogue-related URLs that I've found on my
web-side travels, but though I'd delay a bit after the quote posts - didn't
want to bombard everyone! However, as you're interested in learning more,
and perhaps some others here are too, here goes:


Dialogue process:
http://www.unisg.ch/~sgzz/links/stp/lo/dialogue.htm


David Bohm address on dialogue - Dialogue: A Proposal:
http://world.std.com/~lo/bohm/0000.html


Learning-org - dialogue on learning organisations:
http://world.std.com/~lo/


An interview with David Bohm (information about tapes)
http://152.175.1.205/TVBohm.html


People featured in the Mystic Fire catalogue (Bohm):
http://152.175.1.205/NIPeople.html#Bohm


NADA - interview with David Bohm:
http://www.burgoyne.com/pages/nada/planet/dbohm.htm

(do check this one out especially; interestingly, it's more a dialogue than
an interview in the traditional Q & A sense)


Dialogue: A Proposal (Bohm, Factor, Garrett):
http://flp.cs.tu-berlin.de:1895/related/BOHM-1.htm


Interconnectedness - Perspective from Physicist David Bohm:
http://www.eagle-net.org/zionosphere/ESCAPING%20BABYLON/Alternative%20Resources/
Energy/Holographic%20Universe/bohm.html


It's worth backing up the pathway on the Heuvel URL, too; more good stuff
there.

Also, there's a Bohm_Dialogue mailing list (wish I'd discovered this one
earlier!):

Anyone wants to sub, it's bohm_dialogue-request@cis.plym.ac.uk

and in the body of the message put: subscribe bohm_dialogue

Seems to be fairly low traffic, but might be a quiet patch, as someone
mentions 14+ MB of messages, more than half since January 98!

My impression so far is that it would make good companion reading to this
list for some here.

A couple of quickie quotes from two posts:

>> The question for dialogue is: What blocks the sense of flow? And can
>> there be an awareness of the blocks as they occur?
>>
>> One suggestion is that the flow is blocked by fragmentary thought. Does
>anybody want to develop this suggestion further?


>.........but perhaps there are times when fragmentation leads to new
>levels of awareness.
>
>Can fragmentation lead to an "evolving whole" or greater sense of mutual
>purpose?


(Oops, *now* who's bringing other lists here!)


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:20:53 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

JoAnne,

Ah, yes now I see...thanks...I knew if we hung in long enuf I'd begin to
get it...<
<I don't waste logic on the heart, it would be poor, impoverished as you
say.  But when someone is trying to make a logical argument about me, and
fails on logical premises and uses faulty premises, it is an insult to
logic and a misrepresentation of me.

-JoAnne>

Are you a Ken Wilbur fan? Seeems you would resonnate to his stuff...Prior
to his meeting his wife his books came from a completely logic based
place...then he met her and she immediately discovered breast
cancer...there's a book of the two of them on the journey to her
death...subsequent books resonnate with heart, tho never losing the power
of the logical...andboth...

Just an annecdotal aside...
When I was studying the male female workplace stuff I spent alot of time
watching C-Span and hearings...one of the research papers spoke of right
handed and left handed males...conclusion was the majority of right handed
males in the research group think *or* feel while the left handed males
think *and* feel, the application then of the research said that when
speaking to a right handed male begin either with the logical or with the
emotive but never mix them and move to the other when making your
point...so I was observing a C-Span hearing on wife abuse...the young woman
testifying was a lawyer who gave workshops to police on how the women were
experiencing the situation...(this is getting too long but I'll plough on)
Her opening line as she sat there looking the total professional was "I was
an abused wife." You could see the impact on the senator...she then told
her story and he was leaning forward in his chair...then when she had him,
she moved into a barrage of statistics and within minutes the senator was
leaning over to his aid and wanting an appointment with her...she was
looking for money for programs...my own personal experience with a right
handed husband and a left handed son bears this out, only I didn't
understand this before the divorce :-) However, when I looked back I
instinctively knew this when I was selling computer systems...and found I
operated the same way...successfully...it was the logic that gave them the
cost benefits, but the emotive which got them to buy...

This resonnates to how I am understanding what you are saying...and I
definitely see this playing out here...

Judith enjoying the ride

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:38:58 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter in your response to Delores I have a personal observation of
myself...not drawing a parallel to you but there is a *grain* of parallel
eh?
snip
W  Another grain of truth is that i wish the tone of the
>adventure was more pleasant,

I am finding I am not having a negative reaction at all to the interaction
between Julienne and JoAnne...interesting... as I engage each message...it
brings to mind my youth and waking up each morning to my father, a very
educated erudite man of Scottish roots, yelling at my mother...for years I
would back away from altercations...then I began to see the benefit as I
allowed myself to stand in the face of what was frightening to me...what I
found was that great energy was created and that energy had the potential
when engaged could shift the issue...I think that is going on here...I have
enormous respect for both JoAnne and Julienne...
in Robert Fritz's work on Creativity I think I've mentioned he speaks of
structural tension between vision and reality...and to the degree one can
hold this tension is the degree the vision is manifested...so my take here
is that JoAnne and Julienne have been holding the tension with great
tenacity and now creativity is emerging...I find it awesome (my word of the
week :-) and so beautiful...

And another *grain* I think, Messeo you may have more to say than I, I
think there is an issue of a personal aesthic...and that may shift along a
continuum given a time slice of life...

Judith rafting thru the white water

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:41:31 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: FREEed the list
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey Miles keep the breeze blowing...feels good on my psyche
Jud

>I have no idea what this means technically
>but sounds absolutely fantastic!
>
>I'm not sure that I want to know what it means
>in hum drum terms either! As a command,
>as a post... its computer-human-dictionary collobartive
>poetry and its beautiful!
>
>At 13:42 11/06/98 GMT, Walter Logeman wrote:
>>All,
>>
>>
>>> FREE psyber-l
>>
>>The PSYBER-L list has been freed, 9 files have been released.
>>
>>
>>Walter
>>
>
>
>I would like to take this moment to FREE everyone.!
>
>i command thus;
>
>FREE Julienne
>
>FREE Hoon
>
>FREE Walter
>
>FREE Judith
>
>FREE Simon
>
>FREE Robert
>
>FREE Meeseo
>
>FREE Anita
>
>FREE Joanne
>
>FREE Nancy
>
>FREE Dolores
>
>FREE Charles
>
>FREE Myself!
>
>FREE Barry
>
>FREE Varman
>
>FREE Everyone !
>
>
>(Pity theres not a FUCK command too, think
>of the things you could do with that!)
>
>
>
>---------------_---------
>           o  | |
> _  _  _      | |  _   ,
>/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
>  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
>-------------------------
>   miles@mail.com
>   http://www.webolution.com.au/miles
>-------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:44:59 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne, Anita, Dolores, Simon, all
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Oh, my God, Charles, I'm getting seduced...
Judith



>Julienne, Anita, Dolores, Simon, all:
>
>A while back, after the idea of ping-pong had come up on the list in
>Julienne's fantasy post, and she and Anita had had an exchange including
>Julienne's remarks about ping-pong being a good game to play "where one can
>get rid of aggression without really hurting anyone", and I'd talked a
>little about my own game I guess, and how it might be an interesting tool
>to use in conflict resolution, Anita wrote:
>
>> I would like to recommend Charles' game instead of the ping-
>> pong. It is the most interesting game I have ever played. There is
>> no winners, no losers, all players are winners in some or other
>> way.
>
>Thank you for saying that, incidentally, Anita: what a beautiful compliment.
>
>A little later, no doubt after I'd talked some more about my games, Dolores
>wrote:
>
>> The glass bead game intriques me, because thinking about it, I
>> can't see the point of a game where there is no winner, even tic
>> tac toe brings out the worst in me. There has to be a winner or
>> there is no point in my playing. I can take defeat, but its the
>> competition that enthralls me. Its never a case for me that its not
>> the winning but how you play the game. For me its always both,
>> and I'm not above cheating. The glass bead game is a game of
>> intellectual one upmanship, even if you protest it is not.
>
>LOL Dolores, fine paragraph: you had me howling.  And I'm delighted you'd
>like to participate in our games, always assuming they happen.
>
>And then some time later still, after I'd talked some *more* more about my
>games, and ping-pong had also been batted across the table any number of
>times, Simon -- who had I think been mentioning David Bohm and his system
>of Dialogues while chatting with Judith, got hold of a copy of Bohm's
>little book on the subject, and started dipping into it and posting quotes
>from it, and in his second post said, "Note the ping-pong reference!"
>
>*
>
>Now if we'd been playing a HipBone Game, and Julienne had played
>"ping-pong" as the first move -- or even better perhaps, if Anita's quote
>above had been the first move, since it includes the idea of win-win
>games... with "ping-pong" as the move title...
>
>And if Dolores had played "glass bead game" as the second move, with *her*
>quote above as the content of her move, claiming links between the two
>moves because (a) both ping-pong and the GBG are games (b) ping-pong unlike
>the GBG is honest and up-front about the aggressive nature of play...
>
>Then Simon's "Note the ping-pong reference!" -- which I'm sure had some
>excitement and delight to it, not to mention a note of synchronicity --
>would have taken the form of a move called "Bohm" or "Dialogue", his move
>content could have been these two paragraphs from David Bohm's book:
>
>::  Discussion is almost like a ping-pong game, where people are
>::  batting the ideas back and forth and the object of the game is to
>::  win or to get points for yourself. Possibly you will take up
>::  somebody else's ideas to back up your own - you may agree
>::  with some and disagree with others - but the basic point is to
>::  win the game. That's very frequently the case in a discussion.
>
>::  In dialogue, however, nobody is trying to win. Everybody wins
>::  if anybody wins. There is a different sort of spirit to it. In a
>::  dialogue, there is no attempt to gain points, or to make your
>::  particular view prevail. Rather, whenever any mistake is
>::  discovered on the part of anybody, everybody gains. It's a
>::  situation called win-win, whereas the other game is win-lose - if I
>::  win, you lose. But a dialogue is something more of a common
>::  participation, in which we are not playing a game against each
>::  other, but *with* each other. In a dialogue, everybody wins.
>
>and he'd be claiming links to "ping-pong" and Anita's quote (i) because
>both mentioned ping-pong and (ii) because both talked about win-win games,
>and also (iii) to Dolores' quote because Bohm's description of discussion
>fits Dolores' sense that all games are forms of one upmanship soooo nicely.
>
>*
>
>And that, my friends, is as good an example as I could wish for of the way
>the games go, of the way they can "concentrate" conversation, of the way
>they allow different points of view to play against each other and yet hang
>together -- and of the sense of patterning that emerges, and the excitement
>of suddenly seeing a move, and so on.
>
>Really nice, and a warm round of applause to Julienne, Anita, Dolores,
>Simon and David Bohm...
>
>*
>
>I've met and "dialogued" with Lee Nichol, Simon -- and Saral Bohm, David's
>wife, inscribed my copy of David's book *Causality and Chance in Modern
>Physics* with David's last words to her, spoken very shortly before he died:
>
>::  It's tantalizing -- I feel that I am on the edge of something.
>
>
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:52:50 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Taking care of Psyber business
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks, Walter,
I am indeed hoping your connection to romance is an omen :-)
Judith synchronistically speaking

>Judith,
>
>you wrote to Nancy:
>
>> yes the healing process
>> continues and each and every wish feeds me and for that I am in awe of
>> being held here.
>
>Which prompts me to add my wishes for your wellness.
>"Something's Coming" ... I have always thought that the song
>captures the anticipation of the romance that was in the original
>Shakespeare version ...
>
>Walter
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:17:10 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Simon, Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Hi all,
>
>This is a post that just
>says - ' I'm here by the way'...
>
>Check out the fact that I am here, and listening
>to your discussions.

Hi Miles!

It's good to read you hear again ;)

Your name was one of the first I encountered on-list when I joined here,
and you've always been a part of my sense of the list's 'aura' and history
(along with Dan, also silent but I sense as a presence here). As I think
I've written before, having gone through long readerly spells here myself
I'm aware of just how much a list can mean to the silent ones, and it's
wonderful when someone bursts out of the silence (here and on other lists)
to proclaim that meaning and value and say "I'm here!".


>> Simon asked, about the GBG...
>>> What would ... prevent the GBG ...
>>> from simply being a case of throwing the lions to the lions while
>>> the Romans watch from the spectator's gallery?
>
>I am usually a fairly 'silent'
>list member and I realise that
>this is a name that can be applied to me
>in the midst of the * past * arguments on this list.
>
>-- "Roman" --   which would have to be a curse,
>in just about anyones book.
>
>And its justified, I mean, in the depths of the more personal (and venective)
>dialogues between the main list particpants, I feel a bit
>like I am getting other people's letters  !

I don't quite see the same analogy working for this list. After all, if
people don't want to read Julienne and JoAnne (or any of us!) they can
always delete the posts unread, there is no onus on them to read
everything. Also, there are (or should be!) other threads going on, with
different topics and interactions. In the case of the 'conflict resolution'
GBG as envisaged, Julienne and JoAnne would avowedly be *the* focus for all
who signed up. A different emphasis, I would say.

If I were to be pedantic about the analogy, I'd say that we all *choose* to
be here (though the difference between wants and needs is a significant
issue here, I think), whereas the poor old Christians didn't exactly have
much of a say about ending up in the arena - and nor, I suppose, did the
lions, though they probably had more fun eating people up!


>As a (fairly) silent list-member, you might wonder
>why I don't leave.
>
>But thats the thing!  I don't want to leave
>but I do want you to be aware that myself (and perhaps a few
>like me ) are here.
>
>There *are* many things on the list I find very interesting
>and I want to stay for these - for the discussion the ideas,
>just to watch the incredibly fast moving flow of thoughts.
>
>I find it hard to find the time or the space
>in the flow to make a post, and I admit
>that I don't read every post, but I don't want to leave
>either.

I'm glad that you assert this now, Miles - and provide a reminder that the
list is not deserted even if all the posters were to be elsewhere involved!
This resonates with me because I joined while the Dream Event was
happening, and enjoyed a month of silent participation! On another list,
the silence might have had no *meaning* for me, but, in the context of
Walter's list description and web site, and the archives that I'd dipped
into, it resonated with me, I felt like I was sitting on the edge of a lake
of silent meditation and communion. Fanciful bullshit to somebody else,
probably, but I had fun - and plenty to keep me occupied elsewhere too,
while waiting patiently for people to 'resurface'.

Actually, I was probably naive, I thought that because the list was silent
there was no-one else present there! Silly me.


>Actually there is a science fiction show - Babylon5 - set
>on a spinning space station. The writer uses the name "lurker"
>to describe all the masses that inhabit the depths
>of the space station.

this chimes in with a notion of stars and extras, doesn't it?


>[ He actually said that this was deliberate in
>deference to the many fans on the 'babylon5' list ]

Yes, I understand the show has a big net fan club. The final series has
finished now, hasn't it? I've only seen it a few times myself; in the UK
it's usually on at some ridiculous hour, and the schedule slips around,
plus it seems to be the sort of show you have to be really devoted to if
you want to get much out of it.


>Anyway, in the nature of all TV shows, of course, there is a
>priniciple cast, the 'Ships Doctor", the "Station Commander" the
>various "Alien Ambassdors" ... and the bit parts,
>or the one-show starts, many of whom are drawn from the
>'Lurkers'.
>
>So I actually quite like that nane, though I wonder -
>If I am lurker, who are the rest of you ? Who's the ships
>doctor ? Who are the alien ambassadors ?  Who is gonna
>play the role of the warring alien ambassadors, that gives
>the show its dynamic tension ? ;-)

I'll just settle for alien...

>And they do make a criticism. As I said above,
>I'm not sure that I should be watching this , or being here
>at all without being involved and perhaps contributing.
>
>But then again why should I ? I wouldn't feel compelled to get involved
>in an argument in a public place like the city Square.
>
>I guess the difference is that the participants would
>be *aware* in that situation of where they are.
>
>This list is not a public square,, but perhaps there is
>something in its nature that is affected by the fact
>that I am here also.. that I am a 'citizen' here
>the same as the rest of you. ;-)
>And there are usually quite a few "Citizens" milling around
>here in the square, though only a few are actually posting at any given time.

I don't see any obligation to post. It's a public list, open archives,
people makes choices to post here (or not) because that's where they're at
at the moment. As I said earlier, I think *need* to post is an interesting
issue - but still, I don't reckon anyone here is doing something they don't
*need* to do (whether *want* to do is different in an interesting
interwoven kind of way).

If you don't want to be close to an argument, you can always walk across to
the other side of the square and find a quiet spot to sit (ie. not read the
posts you feel you don't want to read).

I think the fact that there are people on the list who read but remain
silent is a significant part of the list aura - of any list's aura, but
perhaps moreso here where it feeds into the psychological dimensions of the
list.


>-- miles as " audience " --
>
>I like the name "audience" most of all. Especially
>for this list.
>
>And if I am in the audience, then when we are each on
>the stage when we post.
>
>And I like the fact that we are 'represented' here by
>our words and not by our real selves with all
>their biography, shape, age and gender.

Personally, I respect what each person wants to portray as part of their
process, when they want to portray it, as a reflection of what feels right
to them. What I value is what people feel *moved* to write, moreso than
anything they feel they should write.


>The list is acting, but the list is more real than acting, because
>this is not a play. This is real discussion.
>I was fascinated to hear Meseoo describe who she was
>when I am so different by age, gender, everything, and yet -- here
> - in this place - I interact with everyone on the same
>level as she.

What I valued was that Meesio was moved to write that post; I didn't need
to know those details to value her contributions here, but they came from
her heart at a heart-spoken time, that is what matters.


>I hope that I have brought some insight into the nature
>of this * list * as a list, which is defined in its
>nature an awful lot by the technology, by the year 1998 and
>by all those little things that say this is a 'list' which is
>the same but not the same as other lists.

Good to see that you feel moved to write here again, Miles.


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:30:18 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: FREEed the list
In-Reply-To:  <v01550118b1a563d09135@[207.54.181.21]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dear Judith

*giggle*

Theres a bit in Caberet where Liza Minelli goes and screams as a train goes
past. I always thought that would be very freeing.

A witch I knew said, the two most liberating and and powerful experiences
you could have were as follows..

1.) Spend the night sleeping by yourself in a dark wood.

2.) Stand on a cliffs edge in the wind beneath a full moon.

No.2 seems a bit daft to me, if the winds blowing the wrong way, but I can
see what she meant. I can imagine both those experiences would be very
freeing, very powerful.

In the meantime, going to go shout Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckkkkkk as the train goes
past.

Love

Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:52:31 -0700
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: FREEed the list
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980611163018.007cbe30@easynet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dolores,

>2.) Stand on a cliffs edge in the wind beneath a full moon.
>
>No.2 seems a bit daft to me, if the winds blowing the wrong way, but I can
>see what she meant. I can imagine both those experiences would be very
>freeing, very powerful.

no.2 was what the first GBG here was partly about.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:49:09 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: The sound of Community
In-Reply-To:  <358fd8dd.146526243@mail.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Just as i have been writing a little piece on How to Avoid
>Community ... but this puts my efforts to shame!


>Walter

Dear Walter

I'm intriqued, your writing a piece on how to avoid community?
Why?
I thought you had lived in a hippy type commune, is that the kind of
community you mean? Well roughly anyway, I understand the broader sense. My
definition of community the sort of community I would be happy in, as a
gathering of individual thinkers with many philosophies etc. Seperate
entities working in the same group.  My derisive view of a community is
where everybody thinks en masse and there is no room for individualism.
For example I live in a community of very stuck up, middle class, golfing,
dogooding geriatrics. I do not fit inside this community. My fault for
buying a bargain when it came to housing. I sit outside, till I'm old
enough, middle class enough and sufficiantly interested in golf or
charitable works to become one of the community. God forbid.
I don't like herd mentality, one of my main beefs with religion being that
your insulated against free thought. Blind acceptance is toted as having
faith. You shouldn't be thinking yourself, faith is enough and lucky and
blessed is he who has it. Course if we picked up all those that stand
outside the community we would realise they form a community of their own,
so you can never truly be an individual. Much as I would like to be a
community of one, its not possible. Besides I'd get bored of my own
company, and it would make a hellishly boring email list. Course I could
appreciate myself wonderfully and pat myself on the back with a reply
message every time I posted.

I can't for the life of me Walter, think why you would be writing a piece
on avoiding-community.  It doesn't make sense to me that somebody I see as
very firmly community orientated, is writing a piece against it..unless of
course I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Wouldn't be the first time.

Love
Dolores

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:50:55 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: FREEed the list
In-Reply-To:  <v04011701b1a5d7b68c65@[207.54.160.96]>
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Tell??

Cos I don't understand

I wasn't here for the first GBG.

Love

Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 12:07:26 -0700
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: 'On Dialogue' III; beam
In-Reply-To:  <v03110702b1a4b9c449b7@[195.200.13.87]>
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Simon, all,

Fascinating synching up of fields of playfull inquiry, musing, (in my
case,) braying.

process
intention
truth
logic
dialogue
doing
being

***

It times like this I would like to send out music. Not to make a point or
even 'to point' just to create a washing of sound into the environment.

***

(I'm still in my *Bohm* stage.) By all means those interested should
respectfully ease a copy of _Thought As A System_ off the shelf.

***

I've been sitting on a lengthy post, somewhat in response to a question
asked last week, whether Robert had manifested 'doing responsibility' and
then keyed by confusion over the word 'depressive' (a key term in object
relations psychology,) raised by Anita.

Now here comes Bohm and his late thought, a real synchronicity for the
group, although in the spirit of Bohm, to note this, is to note an
interpretation. But isn't it amazing that the one person who
'philosophologically' began to sort out the conundrums of perceptual and
cognitive reflexivity within a rigorous common sensical, experiential
framework should arise into our waters. (Thanks Simon, we're moving into
the waters.)

Bohm is quite logical about assertions of a catagorical nature: they are
only possibly conclusive but never conclusively factual. The basic logical
error is mistaking the reflexive thought for the actuality of the object,
and then compounding the mistake by proceeding in the "as/if" mode.

This is where Wilbur and Bohm overlap: What can we know if we do not
abstract thought further (in order to study it via 'possible conclusions')
but, instead, see into the participantobserver and wonder about the nature
of experiencing thought-making and the 'experiencing of thought' from,
literally, our own perceptual point of view.

A perennial question of course...

***

"As I've pointed out, one of the key difficulties has always been that
thought does something and then says that what it is doing is not thought.
Thought creates a problem and then tries to do something about it while
continueing to make the problem, because it doesn't know what it is doing.
It's all a bunch of reflexes working. Remember that 'thought' is a past
particle. It's what has been registered in the memory. That registration is
thorugh a set of reflexes; so whenever a form appears which fits that whole
set, that symbolic representation will stand in for whatever fits actually
being perceived."  (p97;TAAS)

"[Thought] can deceive us about anything and everything. There is no limit
to its power of deception. You could say that every trick we know, thought
knows in the next moment. If we see a trick, then in the next moment
thought has it there in the reflexes. In other words, thought is us -
thought is not different than us." (p99;TAAS)

"Knowing requires being open and seeing what is happening now." (p107;TAAS)

bingo! describes the gap provided in the middle of the *reasoningdrama*
should we have insight adequate enough to go from 'having our rules do us'
to doing the implicate process; not being responsibility because we know
how, but because we are being responsible.

!think like an ant!

***

best to all,

HooN


(Minimally,) a 800 year old echo of Bohm: 'If you could give up tricks and
cleverness, that would be the cleverest trick.'

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:12:50 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: suggestions from Julienne, Simon, Walter
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne, Simon, Walter, all:

I'm trying to keep up with the bewildering deluge of posts just like the
rest of you, and in particular to answer questions about the GBG proposal:
forgive me if I don't catch them all.

Julienne wrote

> Maybe the whole list would be best playing this game.

I think you're referring to the whole Psyber-L list here, no, Julienne?
I'm afraid it would result in some people who were tired of getting GBG
posts unsubbing, even if we used the "GBG" tag in the header every time.

Part of the problem has to do with different mail setups, and different
pricing structures for receiving mail around the world.  Some people pay
for every message downloaded by the line, for example.  And I know that I
can't delete messages until they've downloaded, whereas I believe a friend
who uses an UNIX based mail server can simply read mail titles on the
server and delete them at will.  And when I was in the UK in February, I
had to pay an individual charge for every connection to the net, whereas
here in the US I pay a flat fee for all local calls, which covers my net
access no matter how extensive.

Another point is that Psyber-L archives are open, and I think what we'll be
attempting here needs to have closed archives, like the Dream Event.

All in all, I think setting up a separate list is the way to go.

*

Simon wrote:

> Maybe it would be a good idea for Leon to introduce himself on
> psyber-l, so that folks here could get a better sense of both him
> and his experience with conflict resolution and GBG *before*
> entering this process (or not).

Again, I think that would be ideal, Simon -- but given the deluge of posts
both about the GBG proposal and on a variety of topics these last few days,
I don't think it would be fair to Leon -- I must have received around 20
Psyber-L posts already this morning, and it's now 8am where I am.

If the project gets underway, I'll be delighted to invite him.  I wrote to
him about a week ago:

::  If the conversation on Psyber-L goes in a direction that I think
::  would interest you -- actual use of my games in a conflict
::  resolution setting, say -- which it may or may not, I'll happily
::  let you know more about that, if you'd be at all interested in
::  participating.

and he replied that he'd certainly be interested in any discussion about
conflict resolution, but we didn't get any more detailed than that.

*

Walter suggested:

> perhaps we ... could send a weekly "postcard" to Psyber-L, one
> which was first posted in the closed group to ensure it did not
> breach the desired level of confidentiality.

Yes.  Making sure Psyber-L stays in the loop while not being deluged with
GBG-tagged posts, while maintaining the confidentiality of the group-space
seems important, and something of that sort would be the way to go.

But I guess I need to say that we're *already* deluging Psyber-L with GBG
posts, and that I think at some point soon we're gonna either *have to*
trust that the overall project is something worth doing, and take our
discussions of the finer points over to the project's own list -- or call
it quits.

*

Onwards to the topic of Walter's role in my next post...


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:16:12 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: Walter's role
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne, Walter, all:

The major issue that may still need some discussion here IMO, Walter, is
the issue of Julienne's feelings about your role -- and I don't think we're
going to be able to resolve that very speedily  by untangling whatever
knots have gotten snarled up in the past.  So I suspect it needs to be
addressed by way of your clarifying your role as list owner and as a member
of the "Resolution Group" as you termed it -- and in particular by
clarifying what aspects of your role would be "technical" or "ceremonial",
and what aspects would be "authoritative".

I think it's the level of authority which you'd exercise or relinquish
which most concerns Julienne, as per her remark:

> As Walter is listowner, isn't putting him in an authoritative
> position in the game really questionable?

I think it's inevitable that you have some authority as the technical list
owner: you have the power to sub and unsub exclusively in that regard.  But
my sense is that the game and associated list postings ought to be
structured from the beginning in such a way that (a) all subbing is
completed after the invite and before we begin setup for the first game,
(b) everyone agrees that they won't ask to be unsubbed before completion of
the game >> restperiod >> closure sequence, (c) if there's an issue about
whether anyone might behave so egregiously on the list that they should be
forcibly unsubbed a la VarMan, we thrash the criteria out in advance on the
list itself.

Walter as participant isn't a problem, as I understand Julienne's concern:
she's said she doesn't want to "stuff the ballot"...

So that leaves the nub of the question: would you be in "an authoritative
position in the game" still to be answered -- and I think the answer here
is clearly that I as GameMaster would have the authority to declare moves
unconstitutional in game terms, while I hope Leon and yourself would be
keeping an eye out on the fairness / evenhandedness of the proceedings, and
hopefully nudging me when I needed to adjust something in your view.  But
then I hope everyone would be doing that, and that everyone would be
supporting *both* principals in the course of play.

I think it should be a rule, in fact, that *none* of us take sides, that we
*all* try to ensure that our posts and comments are diplomatic and even
handed, that the principals can both -- within the constraints of the game
rules and group rules -- say or play anything they choose without one-sided
rebuttal or denial or one-sided aupport, and that the *only* person who can
declare something one of the principals has said or played is false or
otherwise wrong would be that person themselves.

***Insight should arise from the process of play, not from any agreement or
disagreement on the part of others.

And if one principal plays something that the other principal wants to
dispute, that should be done within the tight formalism of a later game
move.

The final issue as I see it has to do with editing any progress reports to
Psyber-L and the final documents written up after a game cycle -- and I
think that too can be arranged by concensus within the group, with myself
or one of the group members submitting a draft and soliciting suggestions.
Maybe there will be a occasion where you'd like to write up a game cycle
from a PsyberNet perspective, I'd like a different write up to illustrate
how the games work as tools in conflict resolution, and others would have
other angles to explore.  We'd all need to get the group's approval, and
the group would have committed to not filibustering the write up and
editing process, so I think we'd quickly weed out offending passages and
come up with acceptable final drafts.

To my mind, that won't be *nearly* as much of a problem as finding the time
to do the writing.

*

And now I'm concerned that this post shouldn't generate another whole
subgenre of responses...

Julienne, I hope this gets your concerns right, and maybe eases some of
them a little.

Walter, I hope you'll post a "one timer" under this subject heading to
clarify your position for Julienne -- and Julienne, I hope you'll take time
to consider Walter's response, and then decide whether you want to proceed.



--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:41:11 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: 'On Dialogue' III; beam
In-Reply-To:  <v04011700b1a5c848ebd7@[207.54.160.96]>
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HooN writes:
>Now here comes Bohm and his late thought, a real synchronicity for the
>group, although in the spirit of Bohm, to note this, is to note an
>interpretation. But isn't it amazing that the one person who
>'philosophologically' began to sort out the conundrums of perceptual and
>cognitive reflexivity within a rigorous common sensical, experiential
>framework should arise into our waters. (Thanks Simon, we're moving into
>the waters.)

HooN, good to hear you moving into these waters here - though I see you are
already 'there':

>(I'm still in my *Bohm* stage.) By all means those interested should
>respectfully ease a copy of _Thought As A System_ off the shelf.

Hmm, yes, this is another I would like to get onto at some point. So many
books though! Recently I've returned to 'Archetypes and Strange Attractors:
The Chaotic World of Synbols' by John R. Van Eenwyk, and yesterday when I
picked up the Bohm book I also was moved to browse and buy 'The Web of
Life' by John Davidson, 'The Rebirth of Nature' by Rupert Sheldrake, and
book of dialogues between Sheldrake and Matthew Fox on science and
spirituality. There are others (patchily reading Bowlby, Winnicott, Alice
Miller at the moment, dipping back into Krishnamurti and Mindell). Well,  I
wouldn't pretend to 'understand' all these, or to be able to read them all
in a linear fashion - for me they become a multi-book patchwork of
serendipitous links constructing a personal 'narrative'. Put another way: I
dip into 'em, read some more thoroughly than others, and take what I need,
trusting in a process of attraction (strange or otherwise!).


>Simon, all,
>
>Fascinating synching up of fields of playfull inquiry, musing, (in my
>case,) braying.
>
>process
>intention
>truth
>logic
>dialogue
>doing
>being
>
>***

well gathered! what a stir pot full of goodies!


>It times like this I would like to send out music. Not to make a point or
>even 'to point' just to create a washing of sound into the environment.

Yes, I can relate to this. Also, reminds me of the time a few years back
when a MOO friend and I synchronously played the same album on opposite
sides of the globe! (well, as near as dammit by communicating in a
text-only environment with, inevitably, a little bit of lag!) a magical
experience...

HooN, this music/ensemble/counterpoint/freejazz/improvisation as group
communication area is something I'd like to get into with you at some
point. I sense we have some similar tastes and interests in this (probably
also dissimilar ones, but that could be interesting too!)


>Bohm is quite logical about assertions of a catagorical nature: they are
>only possibly conclusive but never conclusively factual. The basic logical
>error is mistaking the reflexive thought for the actuality of the object,
>and then compounding the mistake by proceeding in the "as/if" mode.

Yes!

re quotes from TAAS:

I won't harp on about this, but there are many echoes of Krishnamurti in
these quotes. I think if you're into Bohm then you will also find K of
interest.


>bingo! describes the gap provided in the middle of the *reasoningdrama*
>should we have insight adequate enough to go from 'having our rules do us'
>to doing the implicate process; not being responsibility because we know
>how, but because we are being responsible.

I think you're describing a process of being *moved* to responsibility, not
as a directive but as an emergent, er, something... ;)

Clinging to it is of no use, though, as K would say... (oh shit, there I go
again...!)


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:52:35 +0100
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Subject:      Participation
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Not to make a habit of this at all, but this post just now from the
Bohm_Dialogue list is pretty cool for here now. It's from Donald Factor,
who wrote the introduction to Bohm's 'Unfolding Meaning'.

Simon

-------

Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:23:51 -0400
From: Donald Factor <DonFactor@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: participation


Here's what I think.

Following Bohm, we live in a participatory universe. If this is the case
then all that occurs is participatory - between the whole and sub-wholes,
possible other wholes!!, sub-wholes and other sub-wholes and maybe even a
few black wholes. In other words, there is now way out of it. (He also used
to say that 'everything is internally connected.') Bohm used to also make a
distinction between the two meanings of the word 'participate'. It means
'to partake of ' and also 'to take part in'. That is, like the yin and yang
of the I Ching, there is an active and a receptive side to participation.
Passion, it seems to me, represents one side, probably the receptive.
Perhaps suspension is a part of that same side. But full participation
requires the active side too, otherwise what would we suspend? Without a
dynamic tension of some sort we would all, I suspect simply sink into the
cosmic mush. And I don't think that's the sort of coherence we are talking
about.

Don

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:32:15 -0700
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Walter's role
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>The final issue as I see it has to do with editing any progress reports to
>Psyber-L and the final documents written up after a game cycle -- and I
>think that too can be arranged by concensus within the group, with myself
>or one of the group members submitting a draft and soliciting suggestions.
>Maybe there will be a occasion where you'd like to write up a game cycle
>from a PsyberNet perspective, I'd like a different write up to illustrate
>how the games work as tools in conflict resolution, and others would have
>other angles to explore.  We'd all need to get the group's approval, and
>the group would have committed to not filibustering the write up and
>editing process, so I think we'd quickly weed out offending passages and
>come up with acceptable final drafts.

Charles, all,

I'm game btw.

Perhaps it might be most cut and dry to not post any reports about the GBG
to Psyber-L.

I think those on the list who survived the Dream Game without actually
participating in it the last time around might be better disposed to keep
the stew simmering on the front burner this time around. Also, by not
posting reports you don't run into any problems of participants reading
tertiary commentary which are not made under the more formalized strictures
of the GBG group, commentary which will necessarily happen anyway but by
definition must happen outside the containment of the GBG group.

***

my opinion today,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:46:06 -0700
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: 'On Dialogue' III; beam
In-Reply-To:  <v03110707b1a5aff09337@[195.200.13.113]>
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Simon writes,

>I won't harp on about this, but there are many echoes of Krishnamurti in
>these quotes. I think if you're into Bohm then you will also find K of
>interest.
>

Actually, Simon, Krishnamurti was one of the instigators of my ruination
way back when.

May God will it never to cease!

***

>I think you're describing a process of being *moved* to responsibility, not
>as a directive but as an emergent, er, something... ;)
>
>Clinging to it is of no use, though, as K would say... (oh shit, there I go
>again...!)

No, that is the essence of the matter. Now this week I say the same thing
with my new mantra, "think like an ant!" The question has no answer because
the answer is an abstraction. (Why do ants march around salt?)

***

If I might alter Coleman Bark's translation (apologies in advance!) of the
Kashmiri Lalli's poem, in the spirit of Bohm:

Knowledge is water
carried in a basket

Hold the wind in your fist,
or tie up an elephant
with one hair.

These are accomplishments
that will make you known.

***

HooN

ps

Lalli: "If a few ashes fall on the mirror, use them to polish it."

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:59:33 -0700
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Subject:      Re: 'On Dialogue' III; beam
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Simon writes, about music,

>Yes, I can relate to this. Also, reminds me of the time a few years back
>when a MOO friend and I synchronously played the same album on opposite
>sides of the globe! (well, as near as dammit by communicating in a
>text-only environment with, inevitably, a little bit of lag!) a magical
>experience...

Cool. I see a very ambitious future realized when I'm able to put back on
my broadcaster hat over the net. If I could send Psyber-L one piece of
music today it would be "Sun-treader" by Ruggles.

***

>HooN, this music/ensemble/counterpoint/freejazz/improvisation as group
>communication area is something I'd like to get into with you at some
>point. I sense we have some similar tastes and interests in this (probably
>also dissimilar ones, but that could be interesting too!)

The dissimilar tastes and interests are the most intriguing since what is
common between us we both already have.

But, what kind of jam do you have in mind?

***

The other day grabbed about a five foot length of PVC pipe which had been
discarded among construction detritus near the record store I gig at, and
coming in through the back hallway I stood between the office door and the
store and blew until the overtones spoke up, and immediatly got a nice
pulsating wave at the pipe's harmonic midsection. [woooooeee - - -woooooeee
- - -wooooeee - - -(repeat)] Chris, my coworker, as usual, gave me the
look: "You're nuts."

I was walking down the main street of the local boho shopping area and
heard this buzzing sound in my head and I thought for a second, 'hmm that's
different...'; I tried to concentrate on it, track it down through the
wetware, when I suddenly realized it was coming from right behind me, so I
turned around and saw a 20-something scrawny hippie walking behind me
blowing a didgerdoo.

***

well, it is all improv, isn't it?

HooN





HooN's music gateways:

Thelonious Monk
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/5Monk.html
Abdullah Ibrahim
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/6cAI_Bio.html
HooN's Tunes & Muso News
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/8Muso.html
What HooN is listening to
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/12listen.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:53:43 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
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At 09:40 AM 6/11/98 -0400, Judith wrote:
>Yes, Julienne, I know you as an individual person...in the musical metaphor
>there is definitely a rift using a jazz term going on between you,
>Julienne, and she, JoAnne...
>
>Judith, tiptoeing thru the tulips

But tying us together as though there's a three-legged race going on
may play into not being able to separate and go on.

I think you mean "riff" -

There is a rift between JoAnne and I, and yet I would like more of a
rift in order to get some space and my own identity back.

Free Julienne from JoAnne!!

I have twin brothers - boy am I beginning to see how they must have felt.

Interesting - to me - is that my twin brothers are double Sagittarians, like
JoAnne. As they went through the transit of Pluto over the last two years -
I became their scapegoat. Now, as she is born a few days after them,
JoAnne is going through the Pluto transit, and I get to cop it again.
It's forcing me to learn how to defend myself for the first time in my life...
which I guess is something. Something necessary for survival.

The astrological themes are amazing for me to watch.

Pluto cycles are the most extraordinary in one's life. Pluto, astrologically,
represents birth, death, rebirth. It is one's journey through Hell - the
transformation of the soul if one uses it wisely. If one doesn't,  then
one projects one's hell onto the "other"(s) - . The other(s) become to blame
for the discomfort of one's journey through the underworld of oneself.

Sagittarius is the sign of "Truth" - of the religious and philosophical
exploration and search for the truth. But it is each Sagittarian's personal
search - it is not to be handed over to someone else to do for the
Sagittarian.
JoAnne's issues with "truth" are her own - and she'd be going through this
if I didn't exist. She would select some other lucky person to carry the
responsibility for her own life's purpose. It doesn't matter whether I tell
the truth or not - I am quite extraneous to JoAnne's journey. What matters
is how JoAnne experiences and life's "truth".

JoAnne continually accuses me of not being truthful, and yet this
is all a great generalization. Whenever things have gotten specific -
such as when Walter checked the archives after a specific charge
from JoAnne, it was found that I was telling the truth. In effect - it was
JoAnne's accusation which was NOT the truth.

JoAnne - the truth crusdae is yours - not mine. Can you work on it
without me? Can you work on it without mentioning my name?
Can you find anyone else, or even perhaps yourself, who isn't
truthful?

And, as has been suggested in so many ways by different
people in varying threads, isn't it a form of hubris to suggest
that you are the judge and jury? That you and you alone are the
judge of truth? That only you knows the truth? Or that, worst of
all, that there may simply not be just one absolute truth?

You see what you see, but maybe you're seeing through a glass
darkly? Like the blind men with the elephant, maybe you only
see the trunk? Maybe you are holding onto the trunk, and I
to the ear. So, when I describe the elephant as "fan-shaped"-
you, holding onto something long and round, call me a "liar"!
Maybe one day you and I will fly over the elephant, and see
the whole wondrous beast - and so perhaps it is not such
a good idea to declare that you have the truth, and the whole
truth? And certainly not ethical to accuse me of not being
truthful.

I don't know how this wandered all around Robin Hood's
barn, Judith - but all roads seem to converge these days.


Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:41:37 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: 'On Dialogue' III; beam - ants
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At 12:07 PM 6/11/98 -0700, Hoon wrote:

Think like an ant!

"Anyone knows an ant, can't...."

Ants are too busy to think - so how do you mean this?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 13:57:56 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: suggestions from Julienne, Simon, Walter
In-Reply-To:  <l03130302b1a5b2375864@[38.29.10.155]>
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Hi Charles,

>Julienne wrote
>
>> Maybe the whole list would be best playing this game.
ttempting here needs to have closed archives, like the Dream Event.
>
>All in all, I think setting up a separate list is the way to go.

Okey dokey...


>Simon wrote:
>Walter suggested:
>
>> perhaps we ... could send a weekly "postcard" to Psyber-L, one
>> which was first posted in the closed group to ensure it did not
>> breach the desired level of confidentiality.

Who is the "we" who writes this postcard?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:01:03 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Walter's role
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At 01:32 PM 6/11/98 -0700, Hoon wrote:
>>The final issue as I see it has to do with editing any progress reports to
>>Psyber-L and the final documents written up after a game cycle -- and I
>>think that too can be arranged by concensus within the group, with myself
>>or one of the group members submitting a draft and soliciting suggestions.
>>Maybe there will be a occasion where you'd like to write up a game cycle
>>from a PsyberNet perspective, I'd like a different write up to illustrate
>>how the games work as tools in conflict resolution, and others would have
>>other angles to explore.  We'd all need to get the group's approval, and
>>the group would have committed to not filibustering the write up and
>>editing process, so I think we'd quickly weed out offending passages and
>>come up with acceptable final drafts.
>
>Charles, all,
>
>I'm game btw.
>
>Perhaps it might be most cut and dry to not post any reports about the GBG
>to Psyber-L.
>
>I think those on the list who survived the Dream Game without actually
>participating in it the last time around might be better disposed to keep
>the stew simmering on the front burner this time around. Also, by not
>posting reports you don't run into any problems of participants reading
>tertiary commentary which are not made under the more formalized strictures
>of the GBG group, commentary which will necessarily happen anyway but by
>definition must happen outside the containment of the GBG group.
>
>***
>
>my opinion today,

And I echo it.

Julienne

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:22:44 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: 'On Dialogue' III; beam
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At 01:46 PM 6/11/98 -0700, Hoon wrote:

>Actually, Simon, Krishnamurti was one of the instigators of my ruination
>way back when.

I like to hear about the ruination of a man. Although I am afraid I was
projecting that ruination of a man
would be the same as for a woman - but I suppose it's not. So...perhaps I
take what I said back - depending
on whether your ruination is male or female...

No, that is the essence of the matter. Now this week I say the same thing
>with my new mantra, "think like an ant!" The question has no answer because
>the answer is an abstraction. (Why do ants march around salt?)

Are you suggesting human beings should march around salt?
Or  around everything in the way? Marching feels a bit militaristic to me...

>If I might alter Coleman Bark's translation (apologies in advance!) of the
>Kashmiri Lalli's poem, in the spirit of Bohm:
>
>Knowledge is water
>carried in a basket
>
>Hold the wind in your fist,
>or tie up an elephant
>with one hair.
>
>These are accomplishments
>that will make you known.

Or drive you crazy first...:)

Julienne

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:42:12 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: 'On Dialogue' III; beam
In-Reply-To:  <v04011709b1a5f29bdf62@[207.54.160.217]>
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At 01:59 PM 6/11/98 -0700, Hoon wrote:

>Cool. I see a very ambitious future realized when I'm able to put back on
>my broadcaster hat over the net. If I could send Psyber-L one piece of
>music today it would be "Sun-treader" by Ruggles.

There is a wonderful person on my astrology List, CHA*OS, who sends
pages of musical lists to the list, or to me personally, almost every day.
Amazing. And wonderful. When my father died, he snal\il-mailed me
pages of selections to use at my parents' memorial...although we couldn't
use most of it, the thought that he would do it was wonderful and touching.

>The other day grabbed about a five foot length of PVC pipe which had been
>discarded among construction detritus near the record store I gig at, and
>coming in through the back hallway I stood between the office door and the
>store and blew until the overtones spoke up, and immediatly got a nice
>pulsating wave at the pipe's harmonic midsection. [woooooeee - - -woooooeee
>- - -wooooeee - - -(repeat)] Chris, my coworker, as usual, gave me the
>look: "You're nuts."

"Boom boom ain't it great to be crazy?
Boom boom ain't it great to be nuts!?" :)

Was it an echoing hallway? Staircases, especially fire escape staircases,
are wonderful music halls. I used to get  caught singing in them all the time
in college - and then I'd be banished to my room for a week - only allowed
to leave for classes and meals. Couldn't remember not to do it - or maybe
I just couldn't give it up.

Five months before she died, my mother told me to stop singing in the
bath - said she was sick of the song I was singing. When I told her I
had been singing half a dozen, she said, "I don't care how many songs
you sing - they're all in the same monotone and it drives me batty!"

ouch. Poor Mum. I think any sign of happiness upset her in the months
before she died.But  she discouraged me when I was 15 and asked
to sing for the senior prom... Why does singing bother people? Maybe
they envy the joy...

>I was walking down the main street of the local boho shopping area and
>heard this buzzing sound in my head and I thought for a second, 'hmm that's
>different...'; I tried to concentrate on it, track it down through the
>wetware, when I suddenly realized it was coming from right behind me, so I
>turned around and saw a 20-something scrawny hippie walking behind me
>blowing a didgerdoo.

My son made a didgeridoo last time we were in Australia...at a special place
in Queensland where someone taught him how to do it.  For his birthday this
year he asked me for a year's singing lessons. Wow. Makes me  cry...but  I'm
really so!!!! happy that he would want such a present.

Can ants sing? Or what music do they make?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:57:13 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Playing Scrabble with Walter
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Dolores, I love all the creative and wonderful imagery you've been
sharing with us on the list.

Baby JoAnne builds a magnificent tower in her mind first, then builds
something like it, adjusting here and there but not slowing down much.
If it falls down Baby JoAnne might look for better blocks, or tape, or
go back to imagining a different tower.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:57:15 GMT
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On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:21:53 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote about Walter:

>I did not come on this List to do "work". But I do get the feeling that
>you see the List that way. I also feel that you in some way see at least
>some of the people on the List, if not all, as part of your "project", like
>students in your class, or patients in therapy, rather than as people
>outside your experiment. I feel as though you respond from your
>head, with the process or project foremost in your mind, rather
>than as fully flesh-and-blood, primarily feeling, human beings.

I have about half an agreement with this.  I do see Walter as
observing, from his head, but not that he must necessarily then be
discounting the humanity of the people he is observing.

>This comes across to me as an intellectual distancing and
>coldness. When the heart is distanced, and not fully engaged,
>whatever we are doing, then one cannot trust very deeply.

This is different from my belief.

Judith's discussion of using head or heart, but not both, at once in
dealing with right-handed men, seems to be relevant here.  I am not
comfortable mixing the two in the same thought, it seems to me to be
dangerous, I'd rather do them in series.  It sounds like you consider
it dangerous not to mix the two.  Is this right?

-JoAnne

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:57:16 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 02:43:27 -0700, you, sc <hoon@APK.NET>, wrote:

>JoAnne wrote:
>
>>Logic was grown in human minds.
>
>>Logic is the way things work in the physical world.
>
>???
>
>***
>
>Really I have no idea what/how things work.
>
>imo and in my universe, logic is nifty, albeit not powerful enough to
>bridge the gap, evidently, between the knowledge of the "way things work"
>and stuff about which it might be stated: "We don't waste logic on it".
>
>***
>
>When you tack (<-wordplay intended!) on 'in the physical world,' is it a
>qualifier?

Yes, I think so.

>Are there things anywhere else aside or separate from the 'physical world'
>and the things in it?

The emotional world.

>In what world does "I don't waste logic on the heart" make sense?

The emotional world.

>Is the physical world altered by any or all other worlds?

Yes.  Humans and other beings are the interface.

>***
>
>How does the *heart* work?

Dunno.

>Why *do* ants march around salt?

It's big.

>
>***
>
>
>HooN
>
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>
>

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:57:16 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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On Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:05:29 +1200, you, Miles Thompson
<miles@MAIL.COM>, wrote:

>At 03:29 11/06/98 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
>>Logic is the way things work in the physical world.
>>
>>Intuition figures out how things work.
>
>Well,, I dunno. How can we keep believing that Logic is the
>underlying structure of the world, when we have the whole
>Godel , " every  sufficiently complex logical system must
>have a truth that is true within that system but yet impossible
>to prove " thing ? Well.. I mean I haven't read Godel, Escher and Bach
>yet (probably should)
>
>But it seems to me that this idea that logic is inherent and complexity
>is derived from it is around the wrong way.

It is turned around, and it's not what I said.

Life is extremely complex.  Logic is an abstraction or rule about some
physical things.  When you look at the physical things more closely
you realise there is more complexity and therefore you make your logic
more complex.  Hence bivalent formal predicate logic births statistics
and fuzzy logic.

>Like the idea used to be that
>the basic underlying rules are logical and simple
>because how else can they be ... that when you get down
>to a sufficently fundamental level things will either be true or
>false. That the whole 'fuzziness', 'uncertainty' thing
>only happens when you are in a situation that is
>sufficiently complex that you can't be bothered enumerating
>every relevant but tiny little fact.
>
>I don't this is right, and I reckon, in a very vague
>and un-educated way that complexity and fuzziness is underlying
>and simplicity and logical truths are derived from that.

Yes, that's the way it is.  On the grand scale, we can make statements
about how a ball will roll down an inclined plane.  When we get to the
atomic level or below we see it's more complicated.

>Sure its all pretty irrelvant, but sometimes we make the mistake
>of applying our conceptions of a logical universe
>where it doesn't apply.
>
>Like when they first invented computers the thought was that
>being incredibly logical (and given that the universe is logical)
>they would have a head start on us with our complicated
>and unnecessarily illogical and fuzzy brains. That soon
>(as depicted in sci-fi at the time) computers would be both
>more intelligent than us and also more capable than us, wandering
>around as robots.
>
>The tragic truth is that, so far, they have remained both incapable
>of intuition as well as virtually incapable of interacting directly with
>the 'real' world.

They're learning.  Fuzzy logic and expert systems are part of the
world now.

>>Therefore, logic is the way we see things in the physical world working,
>>and we codify it with symbols and rules, which conform to the way the world
>>in its physical aspects works.
>
>I would *like* to think, though I might be wrong that the world
>is made up of symbols, and that its these symbols themselves that are
>real, and their physical resonations that are the derivation.

A Platonic Idealist, eh?  How does that fit in with the complexity of
the lower realities?

>The doesn't make the universe any less real... without evidence
>to the contrary I am prepared to agree that we are both
>living in the 'same' universe (though some would disagree)
>but maybe, just maybe, we are as off the mark about the order of things
>in the universe as they were in the European middle ages with their
>whole Gods and Devils and rotating spheres thing. ;-)

-JoAnne, rotating Devil

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:57:14 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 10:20:53 -0400, you, Judith Buerkel
<judithb@APK.NET>, wrote:

>JoAnne,
>
>Ah, yes now I see...thanks...I knew if we hung in long enuf I'd begin to
>get it...<
><I don't waste logic on the heart, it would be poor, impoverished as you
>say.  But when someone is trying to make a logical argument about me, and
>fails on logical premises and uses faulty premises, it is an insult to
>logic and a misrepresentation of me.
>
>-JoAnne>
>
>Are you a Ken Wilbur fan? Seeems you would resonnate to his stuff...Prior
>to his meeting his wife his books came from a completely logic based
>place...then he met her and she immediately discovered breast
>cancer...there's a book of the two of them on the journey to her
>death...subsequent books resonnate with heart, tho never losing the power
>of the logical...andboth...

I'll have to look him up, the name isn't even familiar.

>Just an annecdotal aside...
>When I was studying the male female workplace stuff I spent alot of time
>watching C-Span and hearings...one of the research papers spoke of right
>handed and left handed males...conclusion was the majority of right handed
>males in the research group think *or* feel while the left handed males
>think *and* feel, the application then of the research said that when
>speaking to a right handed male begin either with the logical or with the
>emotive but never mix them and move to the other when making your
>point...so I was observing a C-Span hearing on wife abuse...the young woman
>testifying was a lawyer who gave workshops to police on how the women were
>experiencing the situation...(this is getting too long but I'll plough on)
>Her opening line as she sat there looking the total professional was "I was
>an abused wife." You could see the impact on the senator...she then told
>her story and he was leaning forward in his chair...then when she had him,
>she moved into a barrage of statistics and within minutes the senator was
>leaning over to his aid and wanting an appointment with her...she was
>looking for money for programs...my own personal experience with a right
>handed husband and a left handed son bears this out, only I didn't
>understand this before the divorce :-) However, when I looked back I
>instinctively knew this when I was selling computer systems...and found I
>operated the same way...successfully...it was the logic that gave them the
>cost benefits, but the emotive which got them to buy...

I love your analysis and story.  My high school sweetie was
left-handed, and essentially where I learned to relate to a lover or
mate.  Another boyfriend later was ambidextrous.  Since then, all
right-handers.  I'll have to mull that over.

>This resonnates to how I am understanding what you are saying...and I
>definitely see this playing out here...
>
>Judith enjoying the ride

Thanks for hopping on.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:57:15 GMT
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Subject:      Re: Some quick points..
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On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:57:14 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>The point here, Dolores, is that everyone can come out a winner.
>Ideally. If you leave a loser behind you leave an enemy, and the
>war will reengage.

Another thing that feels different to me.  Winner and loser does not
to me mean that the loser is inevitably an enemy and wants to wage war
again.

>I wonder if there isn't a lot of repressed stuff on this list? So many people
>on here sick - holding stuff in. What are we really up to? What about all
>the stresses in our lives? What can we learn from each other which might
>transfer to RL? Who on here pushes each of our buttons? Who on here
>makes us sick, like in real life? I think this might be a way to look at
>what is happening here - instead of just talking about the welcome file
>and the process - maybe we just need to focus on our own stuff as we
>interact.

What would it mean that I'm not sick, then?

>Maybe I should just revel in being the list shadow - and usurp the role
>JoAnne thinks I assign to her. JoAnne - who assigned that to you in
>the past? Someone had to for you to think I'm doing it to you...

Not necessarily, but in this case, there have been many times I've
been assigned the demon role.  That's what happens when you're
different, you know that too, don't you?  Your brothers and mother did
that to you, at least I think that's what you've said.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:57:15 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: ignore this.  it's only that silly logical nitpicking JoAnne
              again.
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On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:48:56 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 03:44 AM 6/11/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>
>>>It's a matter of degree.  Julienne should not just "disappear."  But as you
>>>say, the person in mourning does not go out and gloom and doom all over
>>>every event, weeping at the amusement park.
>
>I see. Like I felt like going to an amusement park after both my parents
>and 2
>close friends died, and 4 of my llamas and 36 other animals were killed
>within the space of one year. Tell me, JoAnne, where would it be appropriate
>for me to appear so that I don't spoil all your fun, poor dear?  It's 6
>months
>now since my father died...just where, in the JoAnne Universe, would you
>allow me to go?

Wherever you want, but don't be surprised if people react to you in
the ways I described.

>What the hell does "silly logical nitpicking" have to do with this?

That's one of my demonic monickers, "silly logical nitpicking JoAnne."

>Have you thought of making regular appearances at funerals to
>hand out flyers on your special guidelines for handling grief?

Do you think it would help?

>Would you be happier if I had jumped on a funeral pyre with them
>so you wouldn't be bothered?
>How about:
>JoAnne's Mourning Laws:

Why are you writing these for me?  I'm not telling you to do any of
this.  Is it easier to paraphrase my statements into unrecognizable
parodies than it is to read what I wrote?

>*No mourner is to appear in public until able to control tears.
>*No displays of grief are allowed whether spoken or written -
>and such expressions will be seen as mere self-indulgence.
>*No mourner is to bother non-mourners at public functions.
>*Mourners are to move to the sidewalks (as you suggested I do)
>so as not to interrupt the normal flow of life for others.
>*Mourners must not expect empathy or kindness - they must
>realize they are public nuisances.
>*The mourner is not to go out at all, preferably.
>*There must be no appearance of gloom or doom from
>the bereaved.
>*Anyone who expresses sadness over the death of someone
>s/he loved is to be ridiculed and shamed and accused of soliciting
>support from others who have no interest in being bothered.
>*Finally, laws are in the works to band the mention of death at
>all, upon pain of death.
>
>Thank heavens for Dylan Thomas's poem for his father:
>
>"Rage! Rage! Against the dying of the light!

Sounds good.  I prefer the raging to the whining.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:57:13 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:49:27 -0400, you, Judith Buerkel
<judithb@APK.NET>, wrote:

>Hi JoAnne,
>
>We need to go back to the exact wording I used because you extracted my use
>of the word *feminine* and connected it to *gender* and that is not what I
>meant.  My exact words were
><.the feminine has known this that there is no objectivity meaning
>anything separate from anything else.>
>
>I see each of us as having masculine and feminine within ala Yin and
>Yang...so I am not drawing gender lines...

Okay, I guess I misunderstood your usage there.

Thanks for clarifying.  Qualifying.  Whatever.  And thanks for coming
back.
>
>thanks...I need to qualify
>Judith
>
>>Hi Judith.  I'm glad to see you back!
>tks.
>j
>>
>>On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:12:30 -0400, you, Judith Buerkel
>><judithb@APK.NET>, wrote:
>>
>>>>>Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 16:49:17 +0100
>>>>>From: "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>>>>>Subject:      Re: Truth
>>>>
>>>>>Truth itself, I would suggest, stands apart from all perspective and
>>>>>motive. Perhaps it can only ever be experienced, never conveyed.
>>>
>>>Simon,
>>>Pardon this but I seem to have regained a bit of indignation...must be a
>>>healthy sign cause indignation takes a lot of energy...
>>>
>>>Truth "itself" seems to imply an object standing alone unconnected ...
>>
>>I wrote part of a reply to the below.  Hope I can finish it tonight.
>>I felt a little "straw manned" with hoon's reply, my intent was never
>>to say that unconnected objective truth is the only thing that exists.
>>A similar discussion is going on on another list I participate in
>>about the truth and how religion and science can share truth, and the
>>perception by some people that there must be a clash of the titans,
>>when none need exist.  At least not in my philosophy!
>>
>>Something you wrote surprised me.  I tend to be suspicious when gender
>>lines are drawn making women the holders of some mysterious "other
>>knowledge" that is extra-logical.
>I don't see women holding mystery but I do experience the feminine as
>mysterious...I'm not being able to access the data in my head...Hoon, you
>could jump in here and help me maybe...

There can be quite a confusion between gender, sex, and actual person.
We do contain multitudes, don't we.

>>I think it's an oversimplification of a statistical, not fundamental,
>>difference between men's and women's preferences between the Thinking
>>and the Feeling functions as described by Myers-Briggs typology, a
>>difference that has been statistically measured.   "women are xxx" or
>>"men are xxx" really usually means that women, or men, are on average
>>more likely to be xxx, and that's no way to deal with individuals.
>>There are men mystics and women scientists, no need to assign the
>>roles by gender.
>
>Ouch...statistics...I see the world as much more messy than thru the eye of
>statistics mostly because I'm alway way out of the norm...

Exactly my point, I think, that the generalizations that work so well
in marketing or selling mass-market paperbacks about "women are from
venus and men are from mars" do not do so well in dealing with real
people who have venus and mars and a hundred other things floating
around inside them.

>but I can express
>to you spending 3 years of self heuristics on what the experience of the
>feminine is and the experience change my beingness forever...there is a
>difference in the masculine and the feminine in my view in how I've lived
>my life and now choose to live...it is a dance for me, one giving way
>within the space to the other in an ongoing experience...it is just a
>wonderfully glorious place at this time of my life to make the
>choice...thus my art and the power of experiencing paper making, not a
>statictical experience tho there are ph's and chemicals and pressure, and
>not a logical experience...but a meditation and spiritual connection which
>thrills me...these are passionate words, not to be construed as emotions
>tho these are present...

I resonate with some of that.  I can find a thrill or passion in
things which are not emotional also.

>I don't know where this is in the myers brigs...my
>4 profiles are all within 1 point of each other which the woman who gave us
>the instrument seemed stunned at...particularly because I came thru what
>she called the "abnormal" experience...there's that bell curve again :-)
>fun to think about...

That is fun to think about.. within 1 point of each other on all
scales.  Gives you a lot of latitude.  But then, we are all able to
learn to function along all these axes, just most people don't try.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:37:28 -0400
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Subject:      Re: FREEed the list
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Hey Delores,
shows you where I am...I'd choose 2 particularly and let the wind
decide...of course yelling F.....in a dark wood feels liberating...
Jud treading the e-mail pool egad!

>Dear Judith
>
>*giggle*
>
>Theres a bit in Caberet where Liza Minelli goes and screams as a train goes
>past. I always thought that would be very freeing.
>
>A witch I knew said, the two most liberating and and powerful experiences
>you could have were as follows..
>
>1.) Spend the night sleeping by yourself in a dark wood.
>
>2.) Stand on a cliffs edge in the wind beneath a full moon.
>
>No.2 seems a bit daft to me, if the winds blowing the wrong way, but I can
>see what she meant. I can imagine both those experiences would be very
>freeing, very powerful.
>
>In the meantime, going to go shout Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuckkkkkk as the train goes
>past.
>
>Love
>
>Dolores.
>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:08:23 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
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At 06:57 PM 6/11/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:21:53 -0400, you, Julienne
><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote about Walter:
>
>>I did not come on this List to do "work". But I do get the feeling that
>>you see the List that way. I also feel that you in some way see at least
>>some of the people on the List, if not all, as part of your "project", like
>>students in your class, or patients in therapy, rather than as people
>>outside your experiment. I feel as though you respond from your
>>head, with the process or project foremost in your mind, rather
>>than as fully flesh-and-blood, primarily feeling, human beings.
>
>I have about half an agreement with this.  I do see Walter as
>observing, from his head, but not that he must necessarily then be
>discounting the humanity of the people he is observing.
>
>>This comes across to me as an intellectual distancing and
>>coldness. When the heart is distanced, and not fully engaged,
>>whatever we are doing, then one cannot trust very deeply.
>
>This is different from my belief.
>
>Judith's discussion of using head or heart, but not both, at once in
>dealing with right-handed men, seems to be relevant here.  I am not
>comfortable mixing the two in the same thought, it seems to me to be
>dangerous, I'd rather do them in series.  It sounds like you consider
>it dangerous not to mix the two.  Is this right?

I think people are all different, and that our brain wiring is different,
based on our genes and our early experiences and wiring from
the moment of conception, and there is a great deal of neuroscientific
evidence for this.
Although we attempt to separate in order to classify - deconstruct in
order to understand - the separations are artificial and not rigid or
complete. No one is, at any time, ever (unless brain damaged or deprived) ever
using only one side of the brain. The brain is firing all over the place,
and the head and heart, or emotional and rational, aspects of the
brain are _always_ intertwined.

However, some of us definitely favour one approach more than
another - again because of nature and nurture. Nurture has a
remarkably strong influence, and some of us are taught that
it is admirable to use the (left)brain, i.e. logic, reason, objectivity -
as the primary function/persona. When the personality favours
this approach, the feeling functions are usually derided, denied,
certainly not valued, and the brain areas which are used to
put us in touch with these functions can actually shrivel - and
be taken over by other brain functions. This happens also with
specific functions like language and hearing. Babies who aren't
talked to - who aren't exposed to noise, lose the hearing areas
in their brains - those cells are taken over and hearing is lost
not to be redeemed even when they are later exposed to sound.

This also affects the personality - the person who values
reason ands logic over all else is going to want logical
reasons to help someone. When a child hurts himself
and comes running over with skinned knees, this person
sends someone for bandaids - and brushes it off as no
big deal. They may examine the wound clinically, and

act according to evidence presented.

The extreme version of such a person is someone
cold, nonnurturant, dysfunctional in relationships,
unable to feel sympathy, empathy, or concern for others.
They will see emotional expressions from other people
as artificial, dishonest, hysterical, acting, dramatic ploys
for attention. This was, of  course, the male model from
which we are just beginning to emerge.

The person who is taught to value the feeling functions
primarily may be intuitive, imaginative, instinctive, creative,
nurturing, empathetic and sympathetic.  S/he may have
major problems with logic (Pascal: "the heart hath reasons that
reason knows not of") math, reason, etc. They feel strongly
for others.

When the child with the sore knee comes running to this
person, s/he'll get lots of hugs and kisses and maybe a
few tears from this person as well.:)

Now - no one is all left brain or all right brain. And the ideal,
in a healthy brain (who has one?) is a balance, a wholeness,
where one function has not been favoured to the expense of the
others by either neuroscientific damage, such as heavy cascades
of adrenalin and other anger chemicals; or by family and other
socialization which has discouraged the development of
various brain functions. Examples of this might be, for
instance, where little boys are discouraged from expressing
tenderness or softness - empathy; or where little girls are
taught that a brilliand mind or critical faculties will detract
from their feminity. Brains are continually damaged along
gender lines. Note: I didn't just say personalities, I said
brains - although actually both are damaged.
So, JoAnne, I didn't say it is "dangerous" to not mix the
two sides of the brain - you did. But in reality it is indeed
dangerous. It is when the heart function, or feeling function
which lets us feel empathy, is destroyed, that you have the
psychopath who coldly offs his/her family and school pals
and whomever else gets in the way.

OJ Simpson recently said that if he killed Nicole, that that
would prove how much he loved her - I suppose the suggestion
being that if he felt jealous that showed love. But that's not
actually accurate. If he had really loved her, and felt the
emotions which go along with that, he would have been
filled with feelings of protection and empthy for Nicole
which would have stopped him in his tracks at the thought
of causing her terrible pain.

There are specific evidences now being found in the brains
of people who can cause such harm to others - sociopaths,
murderers, rapists, etc., of damage, underdevelopment, etc.

Now - we are again talking about a spectrum. Astrologically
we also see these patterns indicating different types of
brains and mindsets, thinking styles, in each of us. But
that's the genetic description of inheritance. On top of
that is still the history of time in utero, babyhood, childhood -
and all the experiences of these times modify the
inheritance.

So - I don't see Walter as being stuck in his left brain...but I do
feel an admiration and line-of-least-resistance in Walter to
lean towards the left side of his brain. Somewhere along the
line I see Walter as favouring that image - the intellectual

with the pipe. He wears the signs of the type.  I don't see Walter
as violent, but because there may be a disconnect from emotion
which makes it so difficult to know what to do when those around
him go up in an emotional/angry whoosh. His solution is still to
handle it intellectually - thus not responding to my request for
help when my father was dying. His brain would say that my
request did not really fall into the guidelines he had created
in his left brain - his orderly process for handling stress, or,
as in Dolores story - building structures in ordered fashion.
But also, when Dolores sometimes in her right-brained way
cuts through Walter's left-brain waffling crap - Walter gets a
kick out of it - as though Delores helped him find pieces he
hadn't been able to find, and said for him things he hadn't been
able to say.

So, knowing this, I know now that sympathy was not the
response I could have expected from Walter - not without
giving him a long time to think about it.

JoAnne - I see you as also being very left-brain developed.
I doubt if your relationship to your right brain is purely
genetic, because you are very angry or irritated at others'
expressions of emotions sometimes. This would suggest
to me that you were taught as a child not to honour or value
that side of yourself.  You get angry, as though looking at
something you've been forced to deny in yourself, while Walter
just seems befuddled and wonders what is going on and
seems to hope it will go away because it's confusing him.
On the other hand, JoAnne, you actively attack it to chase
it away, so I would imagine that as a child you found more
respone to the intelligent and pushy JoAnne than to the
potentially sensitive JoAnne with Pisces rising.

So - I waltz happily into the picture. You and I get along at
first, JoAnne, because you and I share left brain development.
We appreciated each others ideas on the list where we met.
You thought I was intelligent, I thought  you were intelligent.
We both wrote a pile of posts about scientific and technical
stuff, and all was well between us.

But then we decided to put a list together, and problems began.
You wanted lots of specifications and rules and long lists of
goodies about how people should behave, and instructions
on how they should write their posts, etc. And I freaked. I
don't like to regiment people and surround them with rules.
I wanted a sweeping philosophical/spiritual/caring statement
telling people we had this giant vision and would walk hand-
in-hand as we explored things together.

On top of that, I had just learned a few months previously
that my mother was dying, and was also experiencing a
number of other emotionally devastating events in my life. You
and I now had a problem - because I also have a strongly
developed right brain, which I have somehow not learned to
ignore, probably to my disadvantage at times, but to my advantage
in others, and I am deeply emotional and nurturing and
empathic. My take on all this is that you distrusted the drama
of my life at the time - distrusted the depth of my feelings
(probably just thought I was hysterical), and maybe didn't
even believe what was going on in my life - and you and
came to a clashing impasse.

Thinking I was just being overly-sensitive and unreasonable
 - you took off very quickly without a word - after we had only had
the list together for 3 weeks. You had attacked me on the list
- and when called on it by others, you protested that this was
just an intellectual discussion - and so what was the problem?
You thought we were just pitting our brains against each other,
and yet I felt very hurt and already vulnerable and as though you
were attacking me. We were playing different games, with different
rules. I saw you as the cruel bitch from hell, and you saw me as the
drama queen faking emotions.


Does this have any resonance for you?

btw - I don't see Walter as discounting people's humanity,
but I do see him as a detached idealist - and that can act
as a brick wall to someone with a strong feeling side - as
though the ideals are more important than the people they
symbolize.

Now - this is far too long - and maybe everyone's sick
of this stuff - and this is very superficial and incomplete -
but what the hell. It's helping me to make sense of it all.



Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:21:36 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      FREEed!!!Hurrah

Dancing with joy..
      Hey, guys!  We 'held' the 'container' together!  'Dad' didn't have to step in and slow our growth by 'protecting' or 'ostracising.  Ain't we done GOOD?

      Wanna join 'game' (ugh...Dolorise....hold my hand....)  Don' wanna be left out.  Probably all feel this.....more than 16???

     Enough!  (Simon, please don' getta scanner.  *G*

            Nancy (the Presumptuous One)  going to get a v-8 to won't take a bite outa Tasty One.

PS Barry, I too liked JoAnne's 'Jungian Jungle'

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:29:28 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Simon, Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
In-Reply-To:  <v03110704b1a5920788a1@[195.200.13.113]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 Simon,

>
>... After all, if
>people don't want to read Julienne and JoAnne (or any of us!) they can
>always delete the posts unread, there is no onus on them to read
>everything.

Quite right. Though you should try not reading a post labelled...

"[P] ignore this.  it's only that silly logical nitpicking JoAnne again. "

;-)


> I joined while the Dream Event was
> happening, and enjoyed a month of silent participation! On another list,
> the silence might have had no *meaning* for me, but, in the context of
> Walter's list description and web site, and the archives that I'd dipped
> into, it resonated with me, I felt like I was sitting on the edge of a lake
> of silent meditation and communion. Fanciful bullshit to somebody else,
> probably, but I had fun - and plenty to keep me occupied elsewhere too,
> while waiting patiently for people to 'resurface'.

what *were* they all doing down there in the depths anyway?

This list for me always has this feeling of depth, and of
undercurrents that resonate to things that are beneath the surface.

But before Walter or Charles start to panic about it, the list
is not especially fragmented. I have this feeling of undercurrents
with all the lists I am on. There seem to be things going on,
and a lot of the time it is because of people choosing
to post 'off-list' which is in the nature of things and cool with
me. Psyber-l is different because all this stuff is so mysterious
and deep . What *were* they all doing?


>>Actually there is a science fiction show - Babylon5 - set
>>on a spinning space station. The writer uses the name "lurker"
>>to describe all the masses that inhabit the depths
>>of the space station.
>
>this chimes in with a notion of stars and extras, doesn't it?
>
>
>>[ He actually said that this was deliberate in
>>deference to the many fans on the 'babylon5' list ]
>
>Yes, I understand the show has a big net fan club. The final series has
>finished now, hasn't it? I've only seen it a few times myself; in the UK
>it's usually on at some ridiculous hour, and the schedule slips around,
>plus it seems to be the sort of show you have to be really devoted to if
>you want to get much out of it.

yeah quite right. Its quite cool that its a series which was
very much created with the fans in a dialogue with the writer
JMS, from what I understand. I was lucky, a fellow worker
had recorded every show back to back without ads and leant
me the tapes. Once you start its the sort of program thats
hard to stop watching. When I saw it the first time
(they played it mid-sunday afternoon over here) I thought
it was total crap...


>I think the fact that there are people on the list who read but remain
>silent is a significant part of the list aura - of any list's aura, but
>perhaps moreso here where it feeds into the psychological dimensions of the
>list.

yeah I think thats what I was thinking. Though as a silent
list member I'm not being very bloody silent at the moment
am I ? And I certainly don't feel any obligation to
post or to read every post.


slater
---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
-------------------------
   miles@mail.com
   http://www.webolution.com.au/miles
-------------------------

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:40:45 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Truth
In-Reply-To:  <359c2564.162047734@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 18:57 11/06/98 GMT, you wrote:
>>I would *like* to think, though I might be wrong that the world
>>is made up of symbols, and that its these symbols themselves that are
>>real, and their physical resonations that are the derivation.
>
>A Platonic Idealist, eh?  How does that fit in with the complexity of
>the lower realities?


Good point. I realised the other night that this was
completely contradictory... I'll go off and think
about it a bit more, OK?

Fuzzy logic and expert systems... great and all
but not *it* by any stretch.
---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
-------------------------
   miles@mail.com
   http://www.webolution.com.au/miles
-------------------------

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:51:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence
              was retained.
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Playing Scrabble with Walter
In-Reply-To:  <359615f2.158093843@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:57 PM 6/11/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>Dolores, I love all the creative and wonderful imagery you've been
>sharing with us on the list.

Ditto...:)

Baby Julienne gets a whole lot of other babies together to play with,
and really doesn't give a fig for the silly tower. I'd hope we'd get
the dumb tower built as quickly as possible, so we could all go and
play with each other. I'd put some flowers on top of it. And, I would
hope this all happened on that beach Walter and I spoke about
before, because then we can play in the water and then come out
and lie on the sand and talk about each other and the universe and
all there is to share. And we'd get each others names and addresses
and make sure we did it again. And we'd bring a picnic. And then we'd
all grow up and be friends forever and in lifetimes to come of there are
such things - and try to fix the world.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 00:27:30 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
In-Reply-To:  <19980611174732.FVJU7634@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:53:43 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 09:40 AM 6/11/98 -0400, Judith wrote:
>>Yes, Julienne, I know you as an individual person...in the musical metaphor
>>there is definitely a rift using a jazz term going on between you,
>>Julienne, and she, JoAnne...
>>
>>Judith, tiptoeing thru the tulips
>
>But tying us together as though there's a three-legged race going on
>may play into not being able to separate and go on.
>
>I think you mean "riff" -
>
>There is a rift between JoAnne and I, and yet I would like more of a
>rift in order to get some space and my own identity back.
>
>Free Julienne from JoAnne!!

I'm happy to let you be free.  Are you willing to let me be free?

>I have twin brothers - boy am I beginning to see how they must have felt.
>
>Interesting - to me - is that my twin brothers are double Sagittarians, like
>JoAnne.

I'm quad Sagittarius, actually.  Sun Jupiter Moon MC.

>As they went through the transit of Pluto over the last two years -
>I became their scapegoat. Now, as she is born a few days after them,
>JoAnne is going through the Pluto transit, and I get to cop it again.
>It's forcing me to learn how to defend myself for the first time in my life...
>which I guess is something. Something necessary for survival.
>
>The astrological themes are amazing for me to watch.
>
>Pluto cycles are the most extraordinary in one's life. Pluto, astrologically,
>represents birth, death, rebirth. It is one's journey through Hell - the
>transformation of the soul if one uses it wisely. If one doesn't,  then
>one projects one's hell onto the "other"(s) - . The other(s) become to blame
>for the discomfort of one's journey through the underworld of oneself.

Everyone has Pluto in his or her chart.  And I don't believe for a
minute that a Pluto trine must be a blessing.  Trines can be
notoriously lazy and locked into preconceived notions.  Trines don't
like squares and conjunctions shaking things up.

>Sagittarius is the sign of "Truth" - of the religious and philosophical
>exploration and search for the truth. But it is each Sagittarian's personal
>search - it is not to be handed over to someone else to do for the
>Sagittarian.
>JoAnne's issues with "truth" are her own - and she'd be going through this
>if I didn't exist. She would select some other lucky person to carry the
>responsibility for her own life's purpose. It doesn't matter whether I tell
>the truth or not - I am quite extraneous to JoAnne's journey. What matters
>is how JoAnne experiences and life's "truth".
>
>JoAnne continually accuses me of not being truthful, and yet this
>is all a great generalization. Whenever things have gotten specific -
>such as when Walter checked the archives after a specific charge
>from JoAnne, it was found that I was telling the truth. In effect - it was
>JoAnne's accusation which was NOT the truth.

I disagree.

>JoAnne - the truth crusdae is yours - not mine. Can you work on it
>without me? Can you work on it without mentioning my name?
>Can you find anyone else, or even perhaps yourself, who isn't
>truthful?

There are many.  I'm not limiting myself to you.  It's your statements
about me that I think are untruthful that catch my attention.

>And, as has been suggested in so many ways by different
>people in varying threads, isn't it a form of hubris to suggest
>that you are the judge and jury? That you and you alone are the
>judge of truth? That only you knows the truth? Or that, worst of
>all, that there may simply not be just one absolute truth?

It's my job to figure this out, not yours, is what you said, right?

>You see what you see, but maybe you're seeing through a glass
>darkly? Like the blind men with the elephant, maybe you only
>see the trunk? Maybe you are holding onto the trunk, and I
>to the ear. So, when I describe the elephant as "fan-shaped"-
>you, holding onto something long and round, call me a "liar"!
>Maybe one day you and I will fly over the elephant, and see
>the whole wondrous beast - and so perhaps it is not such
>a good idea to declare that you have the truth, and the whole
>truth? And certainly not ethical to accuse me of not being
>truthful.

I'd love to fly over the elephant with you, Julienne.

>I don't know how this wandered all around Robin Hood's
>barn, Judith - but all roads seem to converge these days.

They have to.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:32:21 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Walter's role
In-Reply-To:  <l03130303b1a5b29c700b@[38.29.10.155]>
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At 09:16 AM 6/11/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>Julienne, Walter, all:
>> As Walter is listowner, isn't putting him in an authoritative

>Walter as participant isn't a problem, as I understand Julienne's concern:
>she's said she doesn't want to "stuff the ballot"...
>
>So that leaves the nub of the question: would you be in "an authoritative
>position in the game" still to be answered -- and I think the answer here
>is clearly that I as GameMaster would have the authority to declare moves
>unconstitutional in game terms, while I hope Leon and yourself would be
>keeping an eye out on the fairness / evenhandedness of the proceedings, and
>hopefully nudging me when I needed to adjust something in your view.  But
>then I hope everyone would be doing that, and that everyone would be
>supporting *both* principals in the course of play.
>
>I think it should be a rule, in fact, that *none* of us take sides, that we
>*all* try to ensure that our posts and comments are diplomatic and even
>handed, that the principals can both -- within the constraints of the game
>rules and group rules -- say or play anything they choose without one-sided
>rebuttal or denial or one-sided aupport, and that the *only* person who can
>declare something one of the principals has said or played is false or
>otherwise wrong would be that person themselves.

This is just what I'm concerned about. Someone today mentioned
that Walter doesn't get angry - but he has been angry with me at
least three times - including about two days ago  - and I think his
anger was unfair because it singled me out - and I wasn't the one
who began this whole thing!

So - even though when Walter has checked he has not ever found me not
to tell the "truth" - still it's me he gets angry at!~ On the list I  can
handle it -
but not when there are just two of us.

So, at this point in time I can't say that I feel Walter is evenhanded, and
so it would make me uncomfortable if he were advising on content in any
way.

>***Insight should arise from the process of play, not from any agreement or
>disagreement on the part of others.

Ideally - yes - but knowing how human minds work - not so likely.

>The final issue as I see it has to do with editing any progress reports to
>Psyber-L and the final documents written up after a game cycle -- and I

>think that too can be arranged by concensus within the group, with myself
>or one of the group members submitting a draft and soliciting suggestions.

As O have already stated, I would not be comfortable about interim reports,
and not comfortable with Walter writing any final report either.

This is not comfortable for me to say, and I don't really want to hurt
Walter's
felings - but I have to say it or I will feel too uncomfortable to do this.

>Julienne, I hope this gets your concerns right, and maybe eases some of
>them a little.
>
>Walter, I hope you'll post a "one timer" under this subject heading to
>clarify your position for Julienne -- and Julienne, I hope you'll take time
>to consider Walter's response, and then decide whether you want to proceed.

Thank you, Charles.  This is my only hesitation.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 19:43:22 -0500
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From:         Tim <tigu@GTE.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>
>>This comes across to me as an intellectual distancing and
>>coldness. When the heart is distanced, and not fully engaged,
>>whatever we are doing, then one cannot trust very deeply.
>


        I'm wondering.....is it necessary for me to trust another to regard
him/her and myself with a careing feeling...even a loving feeling?  What is
it I TRUST that person to do, or not do?  What kind of controls and/or
expectations does "trusting another" imply?  Is there a better
word...ACCEPTANCE...perhaps?   So now, I ACCEPT another, ALL of that other,
with the understanding that one is always....we are always...doing the best
we can and at such time as we truly see a better way, that path will ALWAYS
be taken.  At such time as we stand in a loving place rather than a fearful
place, we will then be free to make the choice that was always there to
make.  Also I need to ACCEPT that every person has a reason for
doing/thinking a certain way at a certain time.  A 'historical" reason,
linked to a unique history.

        So I CAN trust very deeply......I can trust that each of us are
unfolding EXACTLY the way we are supposed to.

        Tim

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:29:17 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      "Change must come from within"
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Into the silence, a morsel of zen humour stumbled across...

Simon


So the Zen master steps up to the hotdog cart and says, "Make me one with
everything."

The hotdog vendor fixes a hotdog and hands it to the Zen master, who pays
with a $20 bill.  The hotdog vendor puts the bill in the cash drawer and
closes the drawer.

"Where's my change?" asks the Zen master.

The hotdog vendor responds, "Change must come from within."

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Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:12:00 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Each of us a participant
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Charles,

A note on one part of your post,

Re: Simon, Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses, where you
said:

> I don't think the proposed games would work unless (i) the principals were
> willing to make a sincere effort to use the game opportunity as a vehicle
> for exploring understanding and possible reconciliation, and (ii) the
> participants were there to bring insight into the situation.

[....]

> In a word, the non-principals would be invited there to *support* both
> principals in their explorations.

I like your word "principals".   I envisage they would,  if all
proceeds as proposed, do the resolution work, as it were,  for
themselves, as in (i) above.

As well as that, on another level, they work for us all.  We all
have conflict ... Robert has already made his clear, hence
participation will have benefits for us all, and I think in the
intro phase I think it would help if we all declared our
immediate personal connection to the theme, what we could learn
out of this.

At yet another level our best *support* is to be there with our
own feelings and stories and learning.  Towards the closure, all
participants could share what they experienced without while the
principals listen, with no commentary or advice to the
"principals" ... this is a time for each person to reveal their
responses and inner processes related to the themes ... to stick
to their own experience.

My idea is that this is a great way to multiply and distribute
the insights and learning, and i hope that it also removes the
"guinea pig" feeling the principals many have ... they have
revealed themselves, and so does every other member of the
gathering, leaders included.  Takes it right away from the lions
and the Romans, as well as from the helpers and helpees.

JoAnne, Julienne,

I have no idea how this sounds to you as i write in a somewhat
distanced way of principals etc.  ... not so good i imagine ...
let me try it another way ... my aim is to return to the idea
that this is all interrelated and each of us have a part in how
the flow of psyber-L has gone and how it goes.

In this list there have been many conflicts and each of us has
conflict in our life ... hence conflict is on the agenda here ...
with or with out your particular one, however, as it happens, you
are here with a prominent one!  In our collective endeavours in
approaching conflict it makes sense, and we could not avoid
seeing & attending to, your conflict.

Charles,

I hope this does not sound as if i am going against something you
said, my hope is that it adds and clarifies and makes for a list
where we are all essentially in the same boat, even though we
acknowledge, even structurally, the differences.

Further thoughts welcome, of course.

Please excuse me if some of these matters have already been
raised as I have not had a chance to read more recent posts.


Walter







__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:30:03 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
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Julienne,
A couple of things...I was thinking riff and typed rift...hummm.
In my world of energy fields I believe a *field* is created with any
interaction and this field is not the individuals but a coalescence of
energy...so the energy expended in the interaction between you and JoAnne
IMO created the field...it is apart from you but is a *thing* of
sorts...which is why I didn't use your names in my musical metaphor...but I
don't have a problem with it or without it...

Something about the map is not the territory...

snip

>It's forcing me to learn how to defend myself for the first time in my life...
>which I guess is something. Something necessary for survival.

This is exactly what I have been thinking


>
>The astrological themes are amazing for me to watch.

I don't know astrology but I am watching it from an archetypal position and
it too is amazing for me to watch...
>
>Pluto cycles are the most extraordinary in one's life. Pluto, astrologically,
>represents birth, death, rebirth. It is one's journey through Hell - the
>transformation of the soul if one uses it wisely. If one doesn't,  then
>one projects one's hell onto the "other"(s) - . The other(s) become to blame
>for the discomfort of one's journey through the underworld of oneself.
>
>Sagittarius is the sign of "Truth" - of the religious and philosophical
>exploration and search for the truth. But it is each Sagittarian's personal
>search - it is not to be handed over to someone else to do for the
>Sagittarian.
>JoAnne's issues with "truth" are her own - and she'd be going through this
>if I didn't exist. She would select some other lucky person to carry the
>responsibility for her own life's purpose. It doesn't matter whether I tell
>the truth or not - I am quite extraneous to JoAnne's journey. What matters
>is how JoAnne experiences and life's "truth".
>
>JoAnne continually accuses me of not being truthful, and yet this
>is all a great generalization. Whenever things have gotten specific -
>such as when Walter checked the archives after a specific charge
>from JoAnne, it was found that I was telling the truth. In effect - it was
>JoAnne's accusation which was NOT the truth.
>
>JoAnne - the truth crusdae is yours - not mine. Can you work on it
>without me? Can you work on it without mentioning my name?
>Can you find anyone else, or even perhaps yourself, who isn't
>truthful?
>
>And, as has been suggested in so many ways by different
>people in varying threads, isn't it a form of hubris to suggest
>that you are the judge and jury? That you and you alone are the
>judge of truth? That only you knows the truth? Or that, worst of
>all, that there may simply not be just one absolute truth?
>
>You see what you see, but maybe you're seeing through a glass
>darkly? Like the blind men with the elephant, maybe you only
>see the trunk? Maybe you are holding onto the trunk, and I
>to the ear. So, when I describe the elephant as "fan-shaped"-
>you, holding onto something long and round, call me a "liar"!
>Maybe one day you and I will fly over the elephant, and see
>the whole wondrous beast - and so perhaps it is not such
>a good idea to declare that you have the truth, and the whole
>truth? And certainly not ethical to accuse me of not being
>truthful.
>
>I don't know how this wandered all around Robin Hood's
>barn, Judith - but all roads seem to converge these days.

Yeah to be sure...curiousier and curiousier

Judith
>
>
>Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:13:27 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: GBG: Walter's role
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Charles,

> I think it's the level of authority which you'd exercise or relinquish
> which most concerns Julienne, as per her remark:
>
> > As Walter is listowner, isn't putting him in an authoritative
> > position in the game really questionable?
>
> I think it's inevitable that you have some authority as the technical list
> owner: you have the power to sub and unsub exclusively in that regard.  But
> my sense is that the game and associated list postings ought to be
> structured from the beginning in such a way that (a) all subbing is
> completed after the invite and before we begin setup for the first game,
> (b) everyone agrees that they won't ask to be unsubbed before completion of
> the game >> restperiod >> closure sequence, (c) if there's an issue about
> whether anyone might behave so egregiously on the list that they should be
> forcibly unsubbed a la VarMan, we thrash the criteria out in advance on the
> list itself.

Yes I am with you on all of this.  I'd add that another "power &
responsibility" is that there is a list description and a welcome
file which, with regard to many matters become the agreed upon
basis for the group.  A list owner has the software given power
to post and maintain those files.  No mean area of
responsibility!

What we are doing at the moment is designing the list out here in
the open in Psyber-L.  I think that is great.  I could imagine
you and I doing some final touch up on the descriptions and so
on.  I can imagine that in the process we will co-create
something wonderful and ... as we have to date imperfect!  We
give it our best shot.  I imagine after much consultation etc. we
will agree on something, and in a week or two it would be part of
the structure of the new list.

I like the idea of this being as you put it, under the Psybernet
umbrella, and the above scenario would make it such.   That is
how i'd like to see it happen.

Such a process may enhance some people's trust and diminish other
people's.  My hope is that being a Psyber group it will be part
of a complex but solid and trustworthy tradition, (with its
imperfections),  that is my main goal.

> So that leaves the nub of the question: would you be in "an authoritative
> position in the game" still to be answered -- and I think the answer here
> is clearly that I as GameMaster would have the authority to declare moves
> unconstitutional in game terms, while I hope Leon and yourself would be
> keeping an eye out on the fairness / evenhandedness of the proceedings, and
> hopefully nudging me when I needed to adjust something in your view.  But
> then I hope everyone would be doing that, and that everyone would be
> supporting *both* principals in the course of play.

My role is in many ways in the history of this whole project ...
conceiving of it, naming it, upholding its ethos ... this merges
with HipBone games ... and at your initiative we develop,
something in the Psybernet environment, which i see as a pleasure
to do and an honour.  I see it as enhancing each endeavour in a
marvelous way.

As participant I am simply that.  I agree that the calling and
nudging  of each other on the quality of our participation is
something we *all* can do.  I think it is realistic to add that
our job descriptions of list owner and games master will give us
a perceived extra clout.  Yet in our ability to participate we
are equal ... until it should come to pulling switches.

There are some complexities ...

> I think it should be a rule, in fact, that *none* of us take sides, that we
> *all* try to ensure that our posts and comments are diplomatic and even
> handed, that the principals can both -- within the constraints of the game
> rules and group rules -- say or play anything they choose without one-sided
> rebuttal or denial or one-sided aupport, and that the *only* person who can
> declare something one of the principals has said or played is false or
> otherwise wrong would be that person themselves.

The rule sounds clear but, as i have discovered with determining
what is "ad hominem" it is often, in the end a personal decision.
We get things like:

You are a %$#$.  This is fairly clear, until we see the context.
It may be:  People who say xyz are **&^%, upon which point it is
not unreasonable for another person to feel personally attacked,
and then to attack back.

I am sure "taking sides" will have similar complexities.  In
psyber-L as list owner I have struggled with this to the depths
of my soul.  many have helped, but I have also felt incredibly
isolated, as good people say very different things in public and
in private.  The isolation is appropriate as it is my *job* in
the end to take a complex "analog" situation and make a "binary"
on off decision.

In Psyber-L it is easier now that the job description is more
focussed.  Here, I am the LO and not a facilitator (or games
master, or conflict resolution facilitator etc!)  Good to have
that clear.  We now have a somewhat improved charter ... one we
did not have in the Flying Cow days.  There is room for
improvement yet.  Psyber-L has gone through evolutionary changes
... this is a difficulty in its own right.  Perhaps closing and
reopening it each time there was a change would have been better.


Many of the above difficulties will not be present in the new
list.  It is building on all that experience.  Apart from the
structural aspects I think that the list owning is a much easier
task when we work together like this in a focussed list.  I trust
our team work Charles.

Well, a lengthy response to your questions Charles ... all
written in the context where I don't anticipate real bottom line
difficulties.  Yet also in the context where there Julienne has
some misgivings about my role resulting from how i do the list
owning here.  My hope is that what I have said here and elsewhere
has engendered trust ... however more discussion may be needed.

> Walter, I hope you'll post a "one timer" under this subject heading to
> clarify your position for Julienne -- and Julienne, I hope you'll take time
> to consider Walter's response, and then decide whether you want to proceed.

Julienne,

I am aware that we are in the midst of several other threads
pertinent to this discussion.  I may not have read your most
recent comments ... if we stick with the "one timer" suggestion
it may help if we pause here if necessary while we discuss these
matters in another thread.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:44:11 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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Judith,

> I am finding I am not having a negative reaction at all to the interaction
> between Julienne and JoAnne...interesting... as I engage each message...it
> brings to mind my youth and waking up each morning to my father, a very
> educated erudite man of Scottish roots, yelling at my mother...for years I
> would back away from altercations...then I began to see the benefit as I
> allowed myself to stand in the face of what was frightening to me...what I
> found was that great energy was created and that energy had the potential
> when engaged could shift the issue...I think that is going on here...I have
> enormous respect for both JoAnne and Julienne...

As i have mentioned your take on this gives me heart ... and i
find it almost incredible!  And very useful to have ... your
presence and comments have a 'moderating' effect on me ... more
later perhaps

> And another *grain* I think, Messeo you may have more to say than I, I
> think there is an issue of a personal aesthic...and that may shift along a
> continuum given a time slice of life...
>
> Judith rafting thru the white water

There is a personal aesthetic involved.  At many levels i think.
One is simply the structure of emails.  Some look exactly like
white water to me ... waterfalls that are unraftable even!

There is a personal aspect to this to be sure ... i think there
is also a more objective one.  In most netiquette files there is
a clause on keeping quotes short, and on being very selective
quoting quotes and thus getting layers of ">" signs.

Is that anything to do with the personal aesthetics you are
thinking of ... or is it more in that certain flow of words
simply feel better to some than others?  You have mentioned that
Hoon and simon's dialogue pleases you but that it is not one that
you can tune into!


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:21:17 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: ignore this.  it's only that silly logical nitpicking JoAnne
              again.
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At 06:57 PM 6/11/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:48:56 -0400, you, Julienne
><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>
>>At 03:44 AM 6/11/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>months
>>now since my father died...just where, in the JoAnne Universe, would you
>>allow me to go?
>
>Wherever you want, but don't be surprised if people react to you in
>the ways I described.

You are the only person who has reacted that way, JoAnne.

>>How about:
>>JoAnne's Mourning Laws:
>
>Why are you writing these for me?  I'm not telling you to do any of
>this.  Is it easier to paraphrase my statements into unrecognizable
>parodies than it is to read what I wrote?

Yes, JoAnne - you have suggested all these things.

>>*No mourner is to appear in public until able to control tears.
>>*No displays of grief are allowed whether spoken or written -
>>and such expressions will be seen as mere self-indulgence.
>>*No mourner is to bother non-mourners at public functions.
>>*Mourners are to move to the sidewalks (as you suggested I do)
>>so as not to interrupt the normal flow of life for others.
>>*Mourners must not expect empathy or kindness - they must
>>realize they are public nuisances.
>>*The mourner is not to go out at all, preferably.
>>*There must be no appearance of gloom or doom from
>>the bereaved.
>>*Anyone who expresses sadness over the death of someone
>>s/he loved is to be ridiculed and shamed and accused of soliciting
>>support from others who have no interest in being bothered.
>>*Finally, laws are in the works to band the mention of death at
>>all, upon pain of death.
>>
>>Thank heavens for Dylan Thomas's poem for his father:
>>
>>"Rage! Rage! Against the dying of the light!
>
>Sounds good.  I prefer the raging to the whining.

Whining over death, JoAnne? Unbelievable.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:26:12 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah
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At 05:21 PM 6/11/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>Dancing with joy..
>      Hey, guys!  We 'held' the 'container' together!  'Dad' didn't have
to step in and slow our growth by 'protecting' or 'ostracising.  Ain't we
done GOOD?

But, just to keep the record straight,   Walter did step and threaten that
he could unsubscribe...

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:53:10 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
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At 12:27 AM 6/12/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:53:43 -0400, you, Julienne
><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>>Free Julienne from JoAnne!!
>
>I'm happy to let you be free.  Are you willing to let me be free?

JoAnne - who chases whom?

>>I have twin brothers - boy am I beginning to see how they must have felt.
>>
>>Interesting - to me - is that my twin brothers are double Sagittarians, like
>>JoAnne.
>
>I'm quad Sagittarius, actually.  Sun Jupiter Moon MC.

Jupiter and MC are actually not counted when calling someone a souble or
triple or quadruple.
However, for the sake of the argument - my brothers also have 4 - Sun,
Moon, MC, and Mars.

>>As they went through the transit of Pluto over the last two years -
>>I became their scapegoat. Now, as she is born a few days after them,
>>JoAnne is going through the Pluto transit, and I get to cop it again.
>>It's forcing me to learn how to defend myself for the first time in my
life...
>>which I guess is something. Something necessary for survival.
>>
>>The astrological themes are amazing for me to watch.
>>
>>Pluto cycles are the most extraordinary in one's life. Pluto,
astrologically,
>>represents birth, death, rebirth. It is one's journey through Hell - the
>>transformation of the soul if one uses it wisely. If one doesn't,  then
>>one projects one's hell onto the "other"(s) - . The other(s) become to blame
>>for the discomfort of one's journey through the underworld of oneself.

>Everyone has Pluto in his or her chart.  And I don't believe for a
>minute that a Pluto trine must be a blessing.  Trines can be
>notoriously lazy and locked into preconceived notions.  Trines don't
>like squares and conjunctions shaking things up.

Why mention the trine, JoAnne?  Why, just because you
have the square, which means severe identity and power struggles
to control others, would you have to criticize the trine, which actually
would mean inner harmony on power issues? That's a bit like
saying it's better to be a fighter than a peacemaker because
peacemakers are wimps.

Further, I was not just talking about everyone's Pluto - but the Pluto
transiting in the sky at the moment. I didn't criticize anything about your
chart - just mentioned what you are having to deal with at the moment.
But this transit does reactivate your natal square, and so brings to
the fore your natal pattern of feeling powerless - annihilated. If one
feels annihilated, one can annihilate others to gain a sense of self,
but a more constructive way is to strengthen one's sense of identity
through inner growth - keeping the process inside oneself instead
of projecting it.

>>Sagittarius is the sign of "Truth" - of the religious and philosophical
>>exploration and search for the truth. But it is each Sagittarian's personal
>>search - it is not to be handed over to someone else to do for the
>>Sagittarian.
>>JoAnne's issues with "truth" are her own - and she'd be going through this
>>if I didn't exist. She would select some other lucky person to carry the
>>responsibility for her own life's purpose. It doesn't matter whether I tell
>>the truth or not - I am quite extraneous to JoAnne's journey. What matters
>>is how JoAnne experiences and life's "truth".
>>
>>JoAnne continually accuses me of not being truthful, and yet this
>>is all a great generalization. Whenever things have gotten specific -
>>such as when Walter checked the archives after a specific charge
>>from JoAnne, it was found that I was telling the truth. In effect - it was
>>JoAnne's accusation which was NOT the truth.

>I disagree.

Well...that was a really weak disagreement.

>>JoAnne - the truth crusade is yours - not mine. Can you work on it
>>without me? Can you work on it without mentioning my name?

>>Can you find anyone else, or even perhaps yourself, who isn't
>>truthful?

>There are many.  I'm not limiting myself to you.  It's your statements
>about me that I think are untruthful that catch my attention.

Why me? And why, even when others point out to you that I
haven't been untruthful, do you still insist on it , even in face of evidence
to the contrary?

>>And, as has been suggested in so many ways by different
>>people in varying threads, isn't it a form of hubris to suggest
>>that you are the judge and jury? That you and you alone are the
>>judge of truth? That only you knows the truth? Or that, worst of
>>all, that there may simply not be just one absolute truth?

>It's my job to figure this out, not yours, is what you said, right?

Yes. But it's not right to use others as your "evil twin" for
you to act this out until you figure it out.

>>You see what you see, but maybe you're seeing through a glass
>>darkly? Like the blind men with the elephant, maybe you only
>>see the trunk? Maybe you are holding onto the trunk, and I
>>to the ear. So, when I describe the elephant as "fan-shaped"-
>>you, holding onto something long and round, call me a "liar"!
>>Maybe one day you and I will fly over the elephant, and see
>>the whole wondrous beast - and so perhaps it is not such
>>a good idea to declare that you have the truth, and the whole
>>truth? And certainly not ethical to accuse me of not being
>>truthful.

>I'd love to fly over the elephant with you, Julienne.

 <laugh> I bet that' would be a sight  to see.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:00:23 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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At 07:43 PM 6/11/98 -0500, Tim wrote:

>        I'm wondering.....is it necessary for me to trust another to regard
>him/her and myself with a careing feeling...even a loving feeling?  What is
>it I TRUST that person to do, or not do?  What kind of controls and/or
>expectations does "trusting another" imply?  Is there a better
>word...ACCEPTANCE...perhaps?   So now, I ACCEPT another, ALL of that other,
>with the understanding that one is always....we are always...doing the best
>we can and at such time as we truly see a better way, that path will ALWAYS
>be taken.  At such time as we stand in a loving place rather than a fearful
>place, we will then be free to make the choice that was always there to
>make.  Also I need to ACCEPT that every person has a reason for
>doing/thinking a certain way at a certain time.  A 'historical" reason,
>linked to a unique history.
>
>        So I CAN trust very deeply......I can trust that each of us are
>unfolding EXACTLY the way we are supposed to.

What about the mass murderer, Tim? What about the parents abusing a child,
or the man raping a woman, someone torturing an animal?

I don't believe that any choice is as good as any other, or that we should
blindly accept every action by others.

Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:08:58 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
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At 10:30 PM 6/11/98 -0400, Judith wrote:
>Julienne,
>A couple of things...I was thinking riff and typed rift...hummm.
>In my world of energy fields I believe a *field* is created with any
>interaction and this field is not the individuals but a coalescence of
>energy...so the energy expended in the interaction between you and JoAnne
>IMO created the field...it is apart from you but is a *thing* of
>sorts...which is why I didn't use your names in my musical metaphor...but I
>don't have a problem with it or without it...

I just felt it was important for us not to be depersonalized. But it's all
right...
I didn't mean to pick on you rather than anyone else...

>Something about the map is not the territory...

Freshman English...Hayakawa?

>snip
>
>>It's forcing me to learn how to defend myself for the first time in my
life...
>>which I guess is something. Something necessary for survival.

>This is exactly what I have been thinking

I am amazed at how much it took...

>>The astrological themes are amazing for me to watch.

>I don't know astrology but I am watching it from an archetypal position and
>it too is amazing for me to watch...

I meant to ask you...did you mean you wanted to be on my list, CHA*OS? -
or were you just speaking symbolically?

I once founded a magazine named _KOSMOS_, in my younger and
more conventional days - so this seemed the time for CHA*OS. :)
>
>>I don't know how this wandered all around Robin Hood's
>>barn, Judith - but all roads seem to converge these days.

>Yeah to be sure...curiousier and curiousier

Welcome to the tea party ?
 :)

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:22:59 +1200
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From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: 'On Dialogue' III; beam
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Hi Julienne

> Can ants sing? Or what music do they make?

Ch-ants, or maybe the national ants-em.

Sorry 'bout that.  I wanted to get in before anyone else did.

Barry
____________________________________
Barry Kennedy<kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 22:19:50 +1200
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From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Playing Scrabble with Walter
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Hello Dolores

I enjoy your posts.  'Baby Walt and Baby Dolores'.  Heh heh heh.  Loved it.
 One line stood out for me.

> He is I imagine a gentle man.

You imagine right.



May I please borrow your idea ?

Baby Barry looked at Baby Walt's tower of carefully, lovingly placed
building blocks.
"Can I play too, Baby Walt ?"
"Sure, that'd be great.  There's lots of kids playing".
Baby Barry tentatively placed some blocks on the tower.  Baby Walt had to
leave the room for a minute to talk with some kids about building other
things with blocks.

Some other kids were sitting around the room, just lookin', and that was
ok.  Others were playin' with blocks and a couple of kids were throwing
them at each other, and some of the blocks started goin' in Baby Walt's
direction, who had just come back into the room.  Blocks bounced off the
tower, making it shake a little and taking a couple of tower blocks out.
Suddenly there were blocks flyin' everywhere, and kids were gettin' hurt.
Baby Barry couldn't understand this at all.  Baby Walt frowned, but didn't
say much, just kept building slowly, and figurin' out a friendly way to
stop this mayhem.

Why were these kids being so mean to Baby Walt ?  They all seem to be ok
sorta kids.  Baby Barry had to think about this quietly for a minute.  His
bottom lip trembled . . .

Finally Baby Barry just had to say something.  He actually wanted to yell
at the other kids to stop, but thought that might only make it worse.
Blocks would probably start comin' in *his* direction, just because he felt
sorry for Baby Walt.  A block had just glanced off the cheek of a kid who
sided with Baby Walt, so Baby Barry kinda expected the same.  But Baby Walt
was his friend.

Baby Walt probably didn't need the help anyway.  He'd been building block
towers for a long time now.  So Baby Barry just quietly, under his breath,
asked the other kids to stop the block throwing and name calling, and hoped
that maybe even one kid heard.

Baby Walt's tower still looked great to Baby Barry, so he picked up a block
and slipped it into a hole in the tower where a block had been knocked
away.

And waited for a block to hit him on the back of the head.



Barry
____________________________________
Barry Kennedy<kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:19:03 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: FREEed the list/Judith
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At 15:37 11/06/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey Delores,
>shows you where I am...I'd choose 2 particularly and let the wind
>decide...of course yelling F.....in a dark wood feels liberating...
>Jud treading the e-mail pool egad!

I'd rather you didn't the wind decide, I'd rather you fought against the
wind when it was blowing you places you would rather not go. You have to
say, this is my destiny and you run with it or you fight against it, but
you decide for yourself and you step forward strongly either way. Control
the wind and use it, even when its seemingly blowing the wrong way.


Big hugs Judith.

Love

Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:32:44 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah
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>     Enough!  (Simon, please don' getta scanner.  *G*
>
>            Nancy (the Presumptuous One)  going to get a v-8 to won't take
>a bite outa Tasty One.


Heh, Nancy, don't worry! No plans to do anything but let my fingers do the
walking!!

A small point, though: having a scanner wouldn't in itself move me to post
anything (or anything more than I wanted or needed to post for various
other, non-scannerly reasons).

There again, don't we all already have 'scanners' in the form of
cut'n'paste functionality in our email programs? How readily would we quote
extracts, and sometimes reams, from previous posts if we had to type in all
that quoted material? Eh??

;)

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:05:15 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: "Change must come from within"

Yes, Simon.  These does seems to be feeling of being 'short changed' on the list.  Without the need to reflect longly, I feel (illogically) quite prepared to accept and understand this cause/result from both sides.
  Oh, dear....'bully for me'?
        Nancy, feeling a little abashed

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:10:51 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah

Yes, that's true, Julienne.  You didn't mind that, did you?
            Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:11:24 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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Hi Time

>>
>>>This comes across to me as an intellectual distancing and
>>>coldness. When the heart is distanced, and not fully engaged,
>>>whatever we are doing, then one cannot trust very deeply.
>>
>
>
>        I'm wondering.....is it necessary for me to trust another to regard
>him/her and myself with a careing feeling...even a loving feeling?  What is
>it I TRUST that person to do, or not do?  What kind of controls and/or
>expectations does "trusting another" imply?  Is there a better
>word...ACCEPTANCE...perhaps?   So now, I ACCEPT another, ALL of that other,
>with the understanding that one is always....we are always...doing the best
>we can and at such time as we truly see a better way, that path will ALWAYS
>be taken.  At such time as we stand in a loving place rather than a fearful
>place, we will then be free to make the choice that was always there to
>make.  Also I need to ACCEPT that every person has a reason for
>doing/thinking a certain way at a certain time.  A 'historical" reason,
>linked to a unique history.

Thanks for this...I resonnate to your thots deeply...I often wonder if the
archetype of original sin starts people off not trusting themselves and
then this gets projected and we're off to the races...I start from a place
NOT of original sin, tho some probably have this assignment to work
on...and assume each person tho I may not find it comfortable has *a reason
for doing/thinking in a certain way at a certain time.* and may I add, can
only made the choice in that moment they are capable of making...later
maybe a different choice based on reformulation...
>
>        So I CAN trust very deeply......I can trust that each of us are
>unfolding EXACTLY the way we are supposed to.
>
>        Tim
Me too and I sense there is a deep trust emerging here...

Judith
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:16:23 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah

Quite right, Simon!  I admire your ability to accept/understand a point.  And then, with the grace of a dancer, to pivot upon it 90 degrees.
          Nancy *S*

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Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:17:53 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah
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Yes, Julienne,
and I am 'minded of one of the laws of thermodynamics ala Prigogine...a
structure holds onto itself until there is enuf pressure expended for a
long enuf period of time to cause the structure to reformulate into a
higher order...and so it is in my world of transformational
learning...or...in order to change water into steam you gotta keep the heat
turned up...

Judith feeling the heat ;-)
>At 05:21 PM 6/11/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>>Dancing with joy..
>>      Hey, guys!  We 'held' the 'container' together!  'Dad' didn't have
>to step in and slow our growth by 'protecting' or 'ostracising.  Ain't we
>done GOOD?
>
>But, just to keep the record straight,   Walter did step and threaten that
>he could unsubscribe...
>
>Julienne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:21:44 -0500
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From:         Tim <tigu@GTE.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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        Julienne,

        The mass murderer, the abusive parent, the rapist (man OR woman),
and the torturer, all are operating from a place of FEAR. I agree that we
all can choose to act from a loving place OR from a fearful perspective.  My
comments simply observed the fact that I need not "trust" another to love
him/her.  Since I don't control anothers actions I have no choice , really,
but to accept those actions.  my own actions however.....ah yes those are a
different matter.


                                Tim





At 02:00 AM 6/12/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 07:43 PM 6/11/98 -0500, Tim wrote:
>
>>        I'm wondering.....is it necessary for me to trust another to regard
>>him/her and myself with a careing feeling...even a loving feeling?  What is
>>it I TRUST that person to do, or not do?  What kind of controls and/or
>>expectations does "trusting another" imply?  Is there a better
>>word...ACCEPTANCE...perhaps?   So now, I ACCEPT another, ALL of that other,
>>with the understanding that one is always....we are always...doing the best
>>we can and at such time as we truly see a better way, that path will ALWAYS
>>be taken.  At such time as we stand in a loving place rather than a fearful
>>place, we will then be free to make the choice that was always there to
>>make.  Also I need to ACCEPT that every person has a reason for
>>doing/thinking a certain way at a certain time.  A 'historical" reason,
>>linked to a unique history.
>>
>>        So I CAN trust very deeply......I can trust that each of us are
>>unfolding EXACTLY the way we are supposed to.
>
>What about the mass murderer, Tim? What about the parents abusing a child,
>or the man raping a woman, someone torturing an animal?
>
>I don't believe that any choice is as good as any other, or that we should
>blindly accept every action by others.
>
>Julienne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:13:03 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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JoAnne,

I'd like to reprise some of my gleanings from our conversation about
'logic' and 'truth' and 'reality'. This is one-sided because its what you
have to reveal about yourself that is interesting to me in this review
since I'm already aware of what I know/am clueless about, regarding these
matters.

Thanks for the rich back and forth!

***

JoAnne>Logic was grown in human minds.

JoAnne>Logic is the way things work in the physical world.

***

[HooN]>>Are there things anywhere else aside or separate from the 'physical
world'
>>and the things in it?

JoAnne>The emotional world.

[HooN]>>Is the physical world altered by any or all other worlds?

JoAnne>Yes.  Humans and other beings are the interface.

***

JoAnne>Therefore, logic is the way we see things in the physical world working,
and we codify it with symbols and rules, which conform to the way the world
in its physical aspects works.

***

JoAnne>Might not rigorous truthmaking serve to highlight the things that
are not
logical, and therefore if the nonlogical is the heart of the discourse,
make it more plain and visible?

***

JoAnne>Intuition figures out how things work.

JoAnne> logic is a very specialized instance of intuition, one that has been
borne out with time, because I believe that intuition is involuntary
and mysterious pattern-making in the brain.

***

joAnne>Your reality and mine can be different.

***

respectfully,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:21:01 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah

Thank you, Judith.  I believe you understand my  'intent behind the intent.'
  Never mind about the card.  Hopefully again we may agree as to intents.  I've had the experience with others.  I don't entirely understand it, but them I don't have to comprehend everything as long as good intents stay aligned.
  Interesting...I've more often subscribed to the notion that 'the road to hell is....'  Apparently in my map so is the 'road to heaven'.
         Love (inspired by understanding)  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:13:48 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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Tim, Julienne, all:

Tim wrote:

> I'm wondering... is it necessary for me to trust another to regard
> him/her and myself with a caring feeling... even a loving feeling?
> What is it I TRUST that person to do, or not do?  What kind of
> controls and/or expectations does "trusting another" imply?  Is
> there a better word... ACCEPTANCE... perhaps?  So now, I
> ACCEPT another, ALL of that other, with the understanding
> that one is always... we are always... doing the best we can and at
> such time as we truly see a better way, that path will ALWAYS
> be taken.  At such time as we stand in a loving place rather than a
> fearful place, we will then be free to make the choice that was
> always there to make.  Also I need to ACCEPT that every
> person has a reason for doing/thinking a certain way at a certain
> time.  A 'historical" reason, linked to a unique history.

Julienne -- with much good reason -- replied:

> What about the mass murderer, Tim? What about the parents
> abusing a child, or the man raping a woman, someone torturing an
> animal?



I think Julienne's question is one which those who espouse Tim's point of
view need to take very seriously indeed, but also that Tim's point is
fundamentally correct -- and that the trick is not to use Tim's kind of
thinking as an escape from facing realities in ourselves or others (the
"rose tinted glasses" effect), but as a means of coming to grips with them
(the "mirror of souls" effect).

A few quick observations, then, about the horrors we see in others:

We can understand a great deal about the complex process that led to
someone becoming a mass murderer, say, without in any way condoning mass
murder, and indeed while subscribing to the justice system putting said
murder away on some kind of permanent basis.  This was the point of Thomas
Harris' first "Hannibal Lecter" book, *Red Dragon*, and a brilliant
fictional case study it is.

The advantage of this kind of understanding for society is primarily that
it will help us avoid the sorts of circumstances which leave people so
twisted, bent, warped -- all the words for this indicate that something we
could loosly term a life-drive has run head on up against a virtually
insuperable obstacle, and turned back on itself in a kind of psychic
feeding frenzy -- that their passions emerge with the force of volcanic
eruptions in such terrifying and counterproductive ways.

Secondarily, it allows those who interact with such people, in for instance
a therapeutic context, to "see" and "hear" them in a way that may be
transparent enough to allow them to see and hear themselves.  There aren't
exactly a lot of examples of this kind of thing happening that I can quote,
and even fewer perhaps in "this modern world" -- but the transformation of
the magician-murderer Milarepa into the great Tibetan yogi and poet that he
eventually became is one that comes to mind.

For ourselves, though, the process of trying to come to grips mentally and
emotionally with this kind of evil may well be enlightening because it sets
in high relief so many of our own hopefully less dramatic and devastating
urges, lures, blocks, twists, and stumblings, our own flashes of rage, our
"go for the jugular" moments -- and even those minor obsessive quirks which
do no harm to anybody until one day, one day our stubborn insistence on
them drives one of our friends nuts!

And getting to grips with *those* can be about as rich a process as this
life affords -- because as James Hillman once put it in his book *Blue
Fire*:

::  The alchemists had an excellent image for the transformation of
::  suffering and symptom into a value of the soul.  A goal of the
::  alchemical process was the pearl of great price.  The pearl starts
::  off as a bit of grit, a neurotic symptom or complaint, a
::  bothersome irritant in one's secret inside flesh, which no
::  defensive shell can protect oneself from.  This is coated over,
::  worked at day in day out, until the grit one day is a pearl; yet it
::  must still be fished up from the depths and pried loose.  Then
::  when the grit is redeemed, it is worn.  It must be worn on the
::  warm skin to keep its luster: the redeemed complex which once
::  caused suffering is exposed to public view as a virtue.  The
::  esoteric treasure gained through occult work becomes an exoteric
::  splendor.

Tim's position, I'd say, is not for everyone: it's what the churches would
classify as a "counsel of perfection", something to shoot for if you really
want to get to the heart of things.

The Gandhis and Trevor Huddleston's of this world bring us all great gifts
by living lives which come very close to the counsels of perfection: but
"premature perfectionism" can be a devastating business -- the "revenge of
the repressed" is not a pretty sight in those who aspire to high ideals
while ignoring their own shadows, depths, abysses.

Make any sense, Julienne, Tim?


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:22:33 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah
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Nancy,

Usually in search of illumination, new angles of view...

... and aware that pivot can become pratfall!

I thank you for your response,

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:26:01 -0400
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              was retained.
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
In-Reply-To:  <v01550107b1a407091d08@[207.54.181.21]>
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Hi,

I just discovered this - written a few days ago and not finished or sent -
so will just send as is.
Julienne

At 10:14 AM 6/10/98 -0400, Judith wrote:

>My thot is that *right* meaning *my right* equals *the right* is a deep
>seated form of one's beingness...the issue then becomes one of the
>assumption of right...what I see when I experience each person here is how
>sometimes that person is asking to be seen, to have their experience
>validated, to have their way of being validated...

Hi Judith,

My problem isn't being seen, because I am seen all over the place.
What concerns me is the *way* I am seen, because I have been
misrepresented as some character which is very foreign to my real self,
and somehow what I do on this list is interpreted within the light of the
character description of me written by someone else.

Lest you think this is not effective, let me exaggerate:

Say someone introduced me to this list as a child molester who has
spent years in and out of prisons. Wouldn't that affect everything I
tried to say? And if I tried to explain to you that I am not, that instead I
am an upright member of the community, and on the school board in
my community, and that I am a published poet, etc...how would you
respond? And if each time I tried to tell you this, whatever I said was
again refuted - can you imagine my frustration?

There are studies which show that we all realize that we have faults,
and it is not having those faults mentioned which bothers us -
as long as we agree that those are our faults. When we
object is when we are accused or labelled with faults (or better -
traits) which we don't think are ours. So...JoAnne's labelling of
me makes no sense to me, because her sense of me, and my
own, simply don't jibe. If she called me wordy, for instance - well,
what could I say? okay...yeah...sure... "Emotional"? Yeah - and
happily so. I don't even consider that a fault.

Now - admittedly there are times when we are buried in denial and
ignorance and goodness knows what - and we simply don't see
our faults.

And JoAnne's accusations are sneaky. She accuses me of being a
liar. Of course I am - and so is she - and every one of us. Studies
show that each of us hands off a pile of lies every day. These may
be outright lies, mild exaggerations, errors - all kinds of things.
But JoAnne's singling out of me as someone not to be trusted
because I am a liar is a very weird thing which belongs to her

What am I supposed to do? Think about the last time I boosted
my resume a bit? Took a few pounds off my weight? That's not
what JoAnne is suggesting - she's suggesting a chronic and
deep being as "A LIAR" - beyond the level of the average person.
And if she's not going that far = then she should leave me alone
and just stufy her own relationship with truth.

Amen

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:58:28 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: 'On Dialogue' III; beam
In-Reply-To:  <199806120725.TAA10606@cyclops.xtra.co.nz>
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At 07:22 PM 6/12/98 +1200, you wrote:
>Hi Julienne
>
>> Can ants sing? Or what music do they make?
>
>Ch-ants, or maybe the national ants-em.
>
>Sorry 'bout that.  I wanted to get in before anyone else did.

And some of them are c-ant-ors,
and some c-ant sing at all. :)

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:10:10 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Playing Scrabble with Walter
In-Reply-To:  <199806121022.WAA04809@cyclops.xtra.co.nz>
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At 10:19 PM 6/12/98 +1200, Barry wrote:

>Baby Barry looked at Baby Walt's tower of carefully, lovingly placed
>building blocks.
>"Can I play too, Baby Walt ?"
>"Sure, that'd be great.  There's lots of kids playing".
>Baby Barry tentatively placed some blocks on the tower.  Baby Walt had to
>leave the room for a minute to talk with some kids about building other
>things with blocks.
>
>Some other kids were sitting around the room, just lookin', and that was
>ok.  Others were playin' with blocks and a couple of kids were throwing
>them at each other, and some of the blocks started goin' in Baby Walt's
>direction, who had just come back into the room.  Blocks bounced off the
>tower, making it shake a little and taking a couple of tower blocks out.
>Suddenly there were blocks flyin' everywhere, and kids were gettin' hurt.
>Baby Barry couldn't understand this at all.  Baby Walt frowned, but didn't
>say much, just kept building slowly, and figurin' out a friendly way to
>stop this mayhem.
>
>Why were these kids being so mean to Baby Walt ?  They all seem to be ok
>sorta kids.  Baby Barry had to think about this quietly for a minute.  His
>bottom lip trembled . . .
>
>Finally Baby Barry just had to say something.  He actually wanted to yell
>at the other kids to stop, but thought that might only make it worse.
>Blocks would probably start comin' in *his* direction, just because he felt
>sorry for Baby Walt.  A block had just glanced off the cheek of a kid who
>sided with Baby Walt, so Baby Barry kinda expected the same.  But Baby Walt
>was his friend.
>
>Baby Walt probably didn't need the help anyway.  He'd been building block
>towers for a long time now.  So Baby Barry just quietly, under his breath,
>asked the other kids to stop the block throwing and name calling, and hoped
>that maybe even one kid heard.
>
>Baby Walt's tower still looked great to Baby Barry, so he picked up a block
>and slipped it into a hole in the tower where a block had been knocked
>away.
>
>And waited for a block to hit him on the back of the head.

See? I think there are far less dangerous games to play - ones
where there's nothing hard to throw so no one can get hurt - like
ping pong. Or we could all go swimming.

Now...I think someone needs to see what happened to make these babies so
mean...:)

Cheer up, Baby Barry...

Baby Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 14:39:01 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      psychic rape

If I take where Juliene is coming from sufficiently, this would be my consideration.
  One that neither 'thinking' nor our 'thinking' society engages sufficiently. This together with 'soul murder'....
  Are we able yet to give a damn about either?
  Sometimes.  Walter ' put away'  VarMan for an indefinite period..
                 Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:19:41 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      left and right brain
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On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:08:23 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>So, JoAnne, I didn't say it is "dangerous" to not mix the
>two sides of the brain - you did. But in reality it is indeed
>dangerous. It is when the heart function, or feeling function
>which lets us feel empathy, is destroyed, that you have the
>psychopath who coldly offs his/her family and school pals
>and whomever else gets in the way.

Judith was saying that the way to engage split brains is not to try to
mix the two in parallel (at the same time) but to engage first one,
and then the other.  I'm not against using both sides, just saying
that I don't do well with both sides engaged at the same time.

>So - I don't see Walter as being stuck in his left brain...but I do
>feel an admiration and line-of-least-resistance in Walter to
>lean towards the left side of his brain. Somewhere along the
>line I see Walter as favouring that image - the intellectual
>with the pipe. He wears the signs of the type.  I don't see Walter
>as violent, but because there may be a disconnect from emotion
>which makes it so difficult to know what to do when those around
>him go up in an emotional/angry whoosh. His solution is still to
>handle it intellectually - thus not responding to my request for
>help when my father was dying. His brain would say that my
>request did not really fall into the guidelines he had created
>in his left brain - his orderly process for handling stress, or,
>as in Dolores story - building structures in ordered fashion.
>But also, when Dolores sometimes in her right-brained way
>cuts through Walter's left-brain waffling crap - Walter gets a
>kick out of it - as though Delores helped him find pieces he
>hadn't been able to find, and said for him things he hadn't been
>able to say.

I see this too.

>So, knowing this, I know now that sympathy was not the
>response I could have expected from Walter - not without
>giving him a long time to think about it.
>
>JoAnne - I see you as also being very left-brain developed.
>I doubt if your relationship to your right brain is purely
>genetic, because you are very angry or irritated at others'
>expressions of emotions sometimes. This would suggest
>to me that you were taught as a child not to honour or value
>that side of yourself.  You get angry, as though looking at
>something you've been forced to deny in yourself, while Walter
>just seems befuddled and wonders what is going on and
>seems to hope it will go away because it's confusing him.
>On the other hand, JoAnne, you actively attack it to chase
>it away, so I would imagine that as a child you found more
>respone to the intelligent and pushy JoAnne than to the
>potentially sensitive JoAnne with Pisces rising.

That's quite true.  The sensitive JoAnne exists but she is not for
general consumption!

>So - I waltz happily into the picture. You and I get along at
>first, JoAnne, because you and I share left brain development.
>We appreciated each others ideas on the list where we met.
>You thought I was intelligent, I thought  you were intelligent.
>We both wrote a pile of posts about scientific and technical
>stuff, and all was well between us.
>
>But then we decided to put a list together, and problems began.
>You wanted lots of specifications and rules and long lists of
>goodies about how people should behave, and instructions
>on how they should write their posts, etc. And I freaked. I
>don't like to regiment people and surround them with rules.
>I wanted a sweeping philosophical/spiritual/caring statement
>telling people we had this giant vision and would walk hand-
>in-hand as we explored things together.

And I freaked at your statement, having been on lists and groups and
having worked and socialized and been in other groups with people
where that kind of sweeping positive ideal was the only rule, and
things went right down the toilet.

>On top of that, I had just learned a few months previously
>that my mother was dying, and was also experiencing a
>number of other emotionally devastating events in my life. You
>and I now had a problem - because I also have a strongly
>developed right brain, which I have somehow not learned to
>ignore, probably to my disadvantage at times, but to my advantage
>in others, and I am deeply emotional and nurturing and
>empathic. My take on all this is that you distrusted the drama
>of my life at the time - distrusted the depth of my feelings
>(probably just thought I was hysterical), and maybe didn't
>even believe what was going on in my life - and you and
>came to a clashing impasse.

I believed the facts of what you said but felt your interpretations of
some of the facts were extreme, and, here we go again, mixing the left
and right brain stuff too much; letting the right brain convince the
left brain of stuff that wasn't really believeable to me.  Because you
were under stress, I think you were overreacting to some of the other
things that were happening.

>Thinking I was just being overly-sensitive and unreasonable
> - you took off very quickly without a word - after we had only had
>the list together for 3 weeks. You had attacked me on the list
>- and when called on it by others, you protested that this was
>just an intellectual discussion - and so what was the problem?
>You thought we were just pitting our brains against each other,
>and yet I felt very hurt and already vulnerable and as though you
>were attacking me. We were playing different games, with different
>rules. I saw you as the cruel bitch from hell, and you saw me as the
>drama queen faking emotions.
>
>Does this have any resonance for you?

Yes, quite a bit.  I still cringe at the word "attacked" but later in
the paragraph you seem to say that is your perception, and not my
intention.

>btw - I don't see Walter as discounting people's humanity,
>but I do see him as a detached idealist - and that can act
>as a brick wall to someone with a strong feeling side - as
>though the ideals are more important than the people they
>symbolize.
>
>Now - this is far too long - and maybe everyone's sick
>of this stuff - and this is very superficial and incomplete -
>but what the hell. It's helping me to make sense of it all.

It's helping me, too.

Thanks, I think this was very productive.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:19:42 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
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On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:53:10 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>>>JoAnne - the truth crusade is yours - not mine. Can you work on it
>>>without me? Can you work on it without mentioning my name?
>
>>>Can you find anyone else, or even perhaps yourself, who isn't
>>>truthful?
>
>>There are many.  I'm not limiting myself to you.  It's your statements
>>about me that I think are untruthful that catch my attention.
>
>Why me? And why, even when others point out to you that I
>haven't been untruthful, do you still insist on it , even in face of evidence
>to the contrary?

Not everyone agrees with you.  There are some who agreed, and still
agree, with me.  So if we're just going to take a vote, it wouldn't be
a landslide in your favor.

>>>You see what you see, but maybe you're seeing through a glass
>>>darkly? Like the blind men with the elephant, maybe you only
>>>see the trunk? Maybe you are holding onto the trunk, and I
>>>to the ear. So, when I describe the elephant as "fan-shaped"-
>>>you, holding onto something long and round, call me a "liar"!
>>>Maybe one day you and I will fly over the elephant, and see
>>>the whole wondrous beast - and so perhaps it is not such
>>>a good idea to declare that you have the truth, and the whole
>>>truth? And certainly not ethical to accuse me of not being
>>>truthful.
>
>>I'd love to fly over the elephant with you, Julienne.
>
> <laugh> I bet that' would be a sight  to see.

It would.  I really would like it.

I think your other post I responded to (and renamed left and right
brain) was a big elephant leap.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:03:23 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
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Julienne writes,

>There are studies which show that we all realize that we have faults,
>and it is not having those faults mentioned which bothers us -
>as long as we agree that those are our faults. When we
>object is when we are accused or labelled with faults (or better -
>traits) which we don't think are ours.

Nothing pisses me off more than to be labelled with a fault I don't think I
have, that in fact I do have, but don't want to have uncovered or revealed
to me. That's my experience; (years later realizing, 'oh so that was what
people were trying to point out.')

***
...no fault before its time?

***

HooN

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Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 01:31:58 +0300
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From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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This is ad hominem attack,  but it  really gets  my goat,  when Julienne writes:


>My problem isn't being seen, because I am seen all over the place.
>What concerns me is the *way* I am seen, because I have been
>misrepresented as some character which is very foreign to my real self,
>and somehow what I do on this list is interpreted within the light of the
>character description of me written by someone else.

To my mind  your character description, Julienne, are  written  by
yourself, not  by someone else. In  your every word you tell  about
yourself - about your wounded self. I feel that you are honest, your words
do not bear false witness against  you. But  your real problem seems  to be,
that  you can't  see yourself  - you are  foreign to your Self.
But let's  speak about me, instead of you, Julienne. What  happens around
me is  reflection of my inner energies. So I'm  responsible  for  that is
occurring in my outer reality. I cannot blame  anybody else than  myself.
The Axe murderer image is a picture of energy in me that projects out from
me onto  - let's say - JoAnne and gets her to attack. I'm  not a victim. On
the inner level I'm  an axe murderer, a rapist and a child molester. Tvat
tvam asi.

Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 15:52:02 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998061211105223@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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At 11:10 AM 6/12/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Yes, that's true, Julienne.  You didn't mind that, did you?
>            Nancy

Hi Nancy....I'm sorry...but I don't know what you mean...would you mind
telling
me which post you're rferring to?

Thanks...J

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Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:08:02 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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Hi Tim,

At 10:21 AM 6/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>        Julienne,
>
>        The mass murderer, the abusive parent, the rapist (man OR woman),
>and the torturer, all are operating from a place of FEAR. I agree that we
>all can choose to act from a loving place OR from a fearful perspective.  My
>comments simply observed the fact that I need not "trust" another to love
>him/her.  Since I don't control anothers actions I have no choice , really,
>but to accept those actions.  my own actions however.....ah yes those are a
>different matter.

Almost agree with you, Tim. Love people no matter what, yes. Accept
their actions - not always. We have a responsibility to care for those who
are, or are likely to be, abused, murdered, raped. (Of course by men OR
women, but the figures for male and female abuse are nowhere near
equal - for instance, 91% of murders in 1995 were by men -FBI stats. )

I do not accept that it is all right for anyone to kill or hurt others, and
I believe that it is up to all of us in the community to do what we can to
change the mindset which leads to such abuse. To just say it "was
meant to be" - for karmic or whatever reason, is to adopt a fatalistic and
irresponsibe attitude.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:27:06 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: psychic rape
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At 02:39 PM 6/12/98 -0400, you wrote:
>If I take where Juliene is coming from sufficiently, this would be my
consideration.
>  One that neither 'thinking' nor our 'thinking' society engages
sufficiently. This together with 'soul murder'....
>  Are we able yet to give a damn about either?
>  Sometimes.  Walter ' put away'  VarMan for an indefinite period..
>                 Nancy


Hi Nancy,

Would you mind just sticking one sentence or so so that I can tell
what you're referring to? We're talking about so much that I don't know which
thought you're responding to...:) I went back to check headings, but
couldn't find this one either...

Thanks...

Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:24:19 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
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At 07:19 PM 6/12/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:53:10 -0400, you, Julienne
><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>
>>>>JoAnne - the truth crusade is yours - not mine. Can you work on it
>>>>without me? Can you work on it without mentioning my name?
>>
>>Why me? And why, even when others point out to you that I
>>haven't been untruthful, do you still insist on it , even in face of
evidence
>>to the contrary?
>
>Not everyone agrees with you.  There are some who agreed, and still
>agree, with me.  So if we're just going to take a vote, it wouldn't be
>a landslide in your favor.

Hi JoAnne,

I'm not talking about philosophical disagreements, but the specifics
where you accused me of being dishonest. Can you think of one where
I was actually found not to tell the truth?

Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 18:38:22 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
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At 07:19 PM 6/12/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:53:10 -0400, you, Julienne
><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>>>I'd love to fly over the elephant with you, Julienne.
>>
>> <laugh> I bet that' would be a sight  to see.
>
>It would.  I really would like it.

Bet you would. You'd probably push me over the side. :) (joke!!!)

>I think your other post I responded to (and renamed left and right
>brain) was a big elephant leap.

Haven't read your response yet - but I would imagine you'd be more comfortable
with something more technical like that :)

Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:30:34 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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At 01:31 AM 6/13/98 +0300, Anita wrote:
>This is ad hominem attack,  but it  really gets  my goat,  when Julienne
writes:

>>My problem isn't being seen, because I am seen all over the place.
>>What concerns me is the *way* I am seen, because I have been
>>misrepresented as some character which is very foreign to my real self,
>>and somehow what I do on this list is interpreted within the light of the
>>character description of me written by someone else.
>
>To my mind  your character description, Julienne, are  written  by
>yourself, not  by someone else.

When I first introduced myself JoAnne immediately described me as
an untrustworthy liar - or wirds ot that affect.

In  your every word you tell  about
>yourself - about your wounded self. I feel that you are honest, your words
>do not bear false witness against  you. But  your real problem seems  to be,
>that  you can't  see yourself  - you are  foreign to your Self.

How do you know? And my wounded self is only part of myself -

>But let's  speak about me, instead of you, Julienne. What  happens around
>me is  reflection of my inner energies. So I'm  responsible  for  that is
>occurring in my outer reality. I cannot blame  anybody else than  myself.
>The Axe murderer image is a picture of energy in me that projects out from
>me onto  - let's say - JoAnne and gets her to attack. I'm  not a victim. On
>the inner level I'm  an axe murderer, a rapist and a child molester. Tvat
>tvam asi.

Well, I know that that is popular New Age psychobabble, Anita, but
that's all it is. What we see in others is largely conditioned by what's
inside ourselves. What we see in another is more a reflection of
ourselves than of the other.

This is the type of reasoning which suggests that a rape victim
"asked" to be raped. It removes our own responsibility to the
person we want to hurt, because we can blame them for
"making us do it" - evoking such behaviour in us. Balderdash -
and quite inconsistent with neuroscientific research.

"Blame" doesn't help at all anywhere in the equation.

Axe murderer, eh? Good thing you warned me - I hadn't spotted
that in you at all.

Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 12 Jun 1998 20:18:59 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
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At 06:03 PM 6/12/98 -0500, Hoon wrote:
>Julienne writes,
>
>>There are studies which show that we all realize that we have faults,
>>and it is not having those faults mentioned which bothers us -
>>as long as we agree that those are our faults. When we
>>object is when we are accused or labelled with faults (or better -
>>traits) which we don't think are ours.
>
>Nothing pisses me off more than to be labelled with a fault I don't think I
>have, that in fact I do have, but don't want to have uncovered or revealed
>to me. That's my experience; (years later realizing, 'oh so that was what
>people were trying to point out.')
>
>***
>...no fault before its time?

And who said you had any faults, Hoon? I didn't hear anyone
suggest any such thing! :)

Julienne

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Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:01:05 +0300
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Just a short comment, before I withdraw from this stage  - for  your safety,
Julienne, otherwise I might begin to hew with my axe.
      You wrote:
>When I first introduced myself JoAnne immediately described me as
>an untrustworthy liar - or wirds ot that affect.
     I don't  buy JoAnne's  or anyone else's  descriptions about you, I only
trust  your own words.
   As so far as popular psychobabble, you refer to astrology, I refer to
Jung who said : What  is not  conscious  inwardly,  will come  from outside
- like Fate. I don't  recall the exact formulation.  Ask  HooN or Robert,
perhaps  they recall.

And now I will enter to my  private  house of words,"where  silence remains
forever kneeling", as Ritsos put it in his  poem: Meaning of  Simplicity.
"Every word is a way out
for an encounter often canceled,
and it's then a word is true, when it insists on the encounter."

So long
Anita

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Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:19:49 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Psychological Explorations
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All,

Aside:  It is easy to go sarcastic and say: OK here is more
left-brained waffle crap or confused musings from Walter ...

Just putting that there is enough, to ease the pain of it
somewhat ... even though it might transgress what Bohm calls
"suspension" (see the thread on Dialogue ~ which is a delight to
have here with its insights and its ant-ics!)   It is about all
the suspension I can manage!

~~~

In chatting all this, (the state of Psyber-L as I portray it!)
over with Kate, she said, that "psychological explorations
involve hitting out against the crucible."  (Interesting thoughts
eh, as we are entering the crucible of marriage! We just agreed
that our bucking at the walls is well over.  We also agreed that
it will give us containment to come up against when there is
conflict. )

~~~

After discussion and some useful prompts from Susan who is a
teacher in rhetoric,  the files now say  that "ad hominem attacks
are not wanted".  What does it do to the "crucible" if there are
such attacks, and there are no consequences?

~~~

Judith

In the following post:

  Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah
  Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:17:53 -0400

wrote:

> ... and so it is in my world of transformational learning...or
> ... in order to change water into steam you gotta keep the heat
> turned up...
>
> Judith feeling the heat ;-)

And the water in the pot, and there has to be a pot, with its
boundaries and no leaks.

Judith was responding to Nancy, in the same thread:

> > Hey, guys!  We 'held' the 'container' together!  'Dad'
> > didn't have to step in and slow our growth by 'protecting'
> > or 'ostracising.  Ain't we done GOOD?

and Julienne who wrote:

> But, just to keep the record straight,   Walter did step and threaten that
> he could unsubscribe...
> Julienne

I did.  In an effort to ensure that we have a container, that we
do not loose the plot.  I have also refrained from doing that ...
right by some, wrong by others.  I am confused ... and at the
same time trusting the process with ease ... we seem to be doing
well.

Both Dolores and Julienne have made very dismissive statement
about the "work" of this list, yet, somehow I think it is
happening.

~~~

JoAnne,

In the following post:

   left and right brain
  Fri, 12 Jun 1998 19:19:41 GMT

quotes Julienne:

> >But then we decided to put a list together, and problems began.
> >You wanted lots of specifications and rules and long lists of
> >goodies about how people should behave, and instructions
> >on how they should write their posts, etc. And I freaked. I
> >don't like to regiment people and surround them with rules.
> >I wanted a sweeping philosophical/spiritual/caring statement
> >telling people we had this giant vision and would walk hand-
> >in-hand as we explored things together.

And responds:

> And I freaked at your statement, having been on lists and groups and
> having worked and socialized and been in other groups with people
> where that kind of sweeping positive ideal was the only rule, and
> things went right down the toilet.


Wow.  That very conflict you have here is the inner conflict i am
having round the nature of the files we have here.

Where does that leave us here?

I think we have a broad sweeping philosophy which Julienne does
not wish to acknowledge, and one statement about personal attacks
which JoAnne is prepared to contravene.

Mysterious!  Interesting.  Mentioned by me without a feeling of
blame, more as an observation, contribution and a desire to
participate in the "resolution" of this conflict, as it is highly
pertinent to me, and Psyber-L as a whole.

More than ever do I think that the whole process is systemic and
we have here *exactly* what we need.


Walter








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Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:19:52 GMT
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JoAnne,

You quote Julienne:

> >btw - I don't see Walter as discounting people's humanity,
> >but I do see him as a detached idealist - and that can act
> >as a brick wall to someone with a strong feeling side - as
> >though the ideals are more important than the people they
> >symbolize.

Julienne,

I recall the example of the officious person who would not bend
the rules to give food ...

What do you make of the fact that there have been, technically
speaking , personal attacks, which i mention, while not unsubbing
people.  It seems to me i am quite a way into valuing the reality
of the people here rather than my ideals.

It is true however that I value such things as statements of
purpose, and mutual understandings, and implicit agreements to
collaborate and so on, and that people who can't or won't enter
into such things with good faith will undermine the overall good,
and simply hurt others who do.

I have a sense that you actually agree with this!

~

On the idealist  / realist thing:

I almost became an academic in 1970, doing an MA in education but
instead  I quit university and got involved in a variety of
socila action, including the creation of a "school without walls"
(of all things.)  The school closed down a couple of years ago.
For all those years it was real, if idealist!  I think if I had
stayed in the university that would relly have been the idealist
thing to have done.

Perhaps you were not using the word in that sense.

~

It is in the same spirit of "praxis" that this is not a list
"about" the psyche in cyberspace.

~~~

What i really returned to this post of JoAnnes for was to reply
with WOW to this:

> >Now - this is far too long - and maybe everyone's sick
> >of this stuff - and this is very superficial and incomplete -
> >but what the hell. It's helping me to make sense of it all.
>
> It's helping me, too.
>
> Thanks, I think this was very productive.
>
> -JoAnne

That is just wonderful to read, and in another post i have more
comment on the actual content of what you are discussing here.


Walter
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Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:19:59 GMT
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Subject:      Re: GBG: suggestions from Julienne, Simon, Walter
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Charles,

I am also still behind on the reading and i have not logged on
for half a day!  Still, I guess there is no rush.

> Julienne wrote
>
> > Maybe the whole list would be best playing this game.
>
> I think you're referring to the whole Psyber-L list here, no, Julienne?
> I'm afraid it would result in some people who were tired of getting GBG
> posts unsubbing, even if we used the "GBG" tag in the header every time.

I think a separate list is a good idea.  However, I think this
discussion here is great as well and belongs here.  The GBG tag
helps.  I am thinking that apart from a separate project the
*idea* of the structured way of attending to the events here is
relevant to how we "attend to the psyche in cyberspace".  The
structure you propose of creating a form where it is OK for two
people just to go for it, ad homineming away, which then is part
of a form where there can be resolution is a great notion.  It
brings in the idea of "maximization" that is built into
psychodrama.  Your "game", as does psychodrama, has many of the
elements of Dialogue, as i see them in the discussion here and in
the links.

If I look at this, seeking a theme, it might be that we desire
some form / structure to attend to psyche.  Left-brain &
right-brain working together?

I also think of the GBG proposal as something *highly*
structured, first in the formation of the list, and secondly in
the use of a game format.  I am wondering if this is a sort of
unconscious (or even conscious?) reaction  to the lack of form
here in Psyber-L?

I think so, but am at a loss as to how to really re-structure
things so that they could be better than simply trusting this
process we already have?  There is unfinished discussion
(Dialogue?) especially with Marie in the archives on this theme.

The interesting thing about the HipBone games is that they are a
product, at least more than Dialogue, and psychodrama of the Net.
We are pioneering the use of a way that is native to the medium,
and not repackaging other forms, very important I think.

~~~

> Part of the problem has to do with different mail setups, and different
> pricing structures for receiving mail around the world.  Some people pay
> for every message downloaded by the line, for example.

True, however the GBG discussion is as vital here as any other
and integral.

* More care with quoting, and trimming  *
* the bottom off old posts, will help a lot.   *


*

> Walter suggested:
>
> > perhaps we ... could send a weekly "postcard" to Psyber-L, one
> > which was first posted in the closed group to ensure it did not
> > breach the desired level of confidentiality.

Julienne asked who is "we", a good question with no easy answer.
The exact form for that could be determined ... yet making rules
about these things is so daunting ... perhaps the broad sweeping
idea that the postcards are first in the other list for a while
without objection is enough?

Trust is the problem here eh, not structure.  Can structure help?

I might add that I would not want to send a "postcard" that did
not meet with Julienne's approval.  Nor of course any that went
without mine ... unless that was clear perhaps?  That is the
spirit of the proposed confidentiality.


Walter

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Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:20:02 GMT
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Subject:      Re: Simon, Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
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Simon,

> I don't quite see the same analogy working for this list. After all, if
> people don't want to read Julienne and JoAnne (or any of us!) they can
> always delete the posts unread, there is no onus on them to read
> everything.

Yet in another we are weaving a whole. eg  The Dialogue thread
exists in the context of the other posts, and would be less
interesting without that context.  There is also the amazing way
the threads converge at times ... as i have just experienced
reading Julienne and JoAnne's  early conflict about list
description files.

(Just an aside, as a comment on how i see this phenomena ... I
understand and agree with your main point that the separate list
gives a more explicit choice.)

Walter


__________________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:39:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dining out

communion

       affinities
   swing and saw
distast and appetite
   in this cafeteria
     of diners

       nancy (in her
purple people eater
      costume)

  Incidenally, yesterday while
browsing the archive under
'Walter', I discovered 'that tit'
happens.
  Thought you'd all want to
know

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Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:26:02 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Simon, Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
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>Simon,
>
>> I don't quite see the same analogy working for this list. After all, if
>> people don't want to read Julienne and JoAnne (or any of us!) they can
>> always delete the posts unread, there is no onus on them to read
>> everything.
>
>Yet in another we are weaving a whole. eg  The Dialogue thread
>exists in the context of the other posts, and would be less
>interesting without that context.  There is also the amazing way
>the threads converge at times ... as i have just experienced
>reading Julienne and JoAnne's  early conflict about list
>description files.

Walter, this is an instance of your response feeling like lecturing to me
(which, I know, doesn't mean it is). Here I see you isolating a particular
sentence from its context, so changing the meaning that I gave to "there is
no onus on them to read anything" through that context, and then responding
to that changed meaning. Kind of ironic, because you then go on to talk
about the value of context!

I went on in the next two sentences to point out that there are other
threads, topics, interactions going on in psyber-l, and to contrast that
with the proposed conflict resolution GBG by saying that "Julienne and
JoAnne would avowedly be *the* focus for all who signed up." So, I was
making a specific point, about an explicit onus to read everything in one
forum and no explicit onus in the other. But, by removing the context of
that specificity, you make it look like I was making a general point while
being unaware of this broader issue of weaving a whole, and the
pull/attraction/necessity of reading all the posts that springs from that
(*for those who are interested in the whole*, I should add). This
'internally emerging' onus on people to read everything because of this
wholeness-weaving of the list seems to be what you're implicitly referring
to in your response.

So then when you talk about how we're weaving a whole, and how the Dialogue
thread exists in the context of other posts and would be less interesting
without that context, it feels to me like you think I don't know this or
feel it and you need to tell me. Which makes me wonder what you think my
reasons were for posting the Dialogue quotes and forwarded posts here, and
if you've listened to what I've written myself.

Not everyone reading this list will be interested in the whole, of course.
Some here have said in the past that they keep only certain posts that
interest them, delete others. Helen wrote recently that she had deleted
over 70 messages without reading them. So, if someone decides that my
posts, or Julienne's and JoAnne's, or whoever's don't interest them, they
might then delete them unread. And why not? That's their choice. Not
everyone is going to be engaged with the *whole* process here - and, as far
as I can see, there is no requirement (no onus) for them to be so engaged.
I think there is not even this requirement for people who post to the list,
let alone for the silent readers (and it was within the context of Miles
coming from a silent-readerly perspective that I made my comment in the
first place, so I had the silent readers in mind as well, not just the
posters, when I said "if people" ). And if someone doesn't have that sense
of holding to the whole, or a sense that all the posts contribute to 'the
whole', then they won't feel any onus to read all the posts.


>(Just an aside, as a comment on how i see this phenomena ... I
>understand and agree with your main point that the separate list
>gives a more explicit choice.)
>
>Walter

An aside maybe, Walter, but your response feels a touch more rounded to me
because of it, though I find your wording a bit unclear... I think *the*
explicit choice (whether or not to read all the posts) comes prior to, in
fact decides, participation (or not) in the GBG, whereas in Psyber-l there
is an ongoing choosing, perhaps a dynamic choosing in relation to events on
the list, there is a choice about whether or not to 'hold the tension' that
comes from reading posts that you can't quite grasp, or that hold some
difficulty understood or not yet understood (reading == participating, in
the sense of 'partaking of' that Donald Factor wrote about in the
Bohm_Dialogue post that I forwarded). That dynamic choosing, and the sense
of holding to a choice when there are no external rules to hold you, have
their own tensions in varying degrees at varying times. These are
dimensions that wouldn't, as I see it, exist in the GBG (which is not
intended as a criticism of the GBG, just a pointing out of a perceived
difference on my part).


So, Walter! Once again, a response but probably not one that you were
expecting!

Intended in warm (if slightly frazzled!) spirit,


Simon

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Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:10:09 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      question: anger in posts
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Walter:

Could you clarify something for me?  When you write that you felt angry at
a certain point, are you "responding angrily", or "trying to be honest
about the fact that some anger arose in you" in response to something, but
"in a not angry but self-reflective way", or a bit of both -- or doesn't
that distinction work for you, or what?

I think that saying "this annoyed me" as an attempt to get to grips with
one's own feelings -- by not only monitoring the feelings themselves
closely but making sure one takes one's "notations" public without name
calling -- is a very different thing from responding angrily.  But it can
easily feel like it, particularly here in cyberspace, unless one makes the
distinction very clear.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 11:15:10 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Quoting: was Re: [P] Simon,
              Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
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Simon, Walter, Morticia, Gomez, esteemed Rabbi and all:

Simon writes to Walter:

> Here I see you isolating a particular sentence from its context, so
> changing the meaning that I gave to "there is no onus on them to
> read anything" through that context, and then responding to that
> changed meaning. Kind of ironic, because you then go on to talk
> about the value of context!

This business of quoting is a very tricky one, Simon, and actually came up
for me on a web-based conference I subscribe to at about the same time
Walter turned up here in LA for a day on his way to Boston -- so we
discussed it a bit face to face.

As a list owner myself, I now know that one popular style of quoting --
deriving from the use of email for office memos, in which each participant
adds a one liner to the original post and all subsequent comments -- winds
up with the entire thread reposted at each iteration, and those massive
stacks of quote carrets:

        Okay by me, Thing -- and thanks for suggesting it Gomez my love.
Morticia

        ------------post fwd-------------
        Lurch wrote:
        >Uncle Fester wrote:
        >>Wednesday wrote:
        >>>On Sat June 13th 16:26:02 +0100 Thing <fingers@grasp.org> tapped
thus:
        >>>>Gomez wrote:
        >>>>>
        >>>>>Morticia, dearest,
        >>>>>Can't you get Thing to scratch your back, instead of that
idiot dogooder
        chiropractor? He's costing us a fortune in fees,
        >>>>>and he
        >>>>>doesn't even draw blood.
        >>>>>
        >>>>>your ever adoring
        >>>>>Gomez
        >>>>
        >>>>Sure I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine, Morticia --
        >>>>back of the hand, that is <g>.  T
        >>>
        >>>such charming poeople we are, we Addamses.  Wednesday
        >>
        >>no one ever volunteers to scratch my back.  The Festster.
        >
        >the very idea gives me the dry heaves, if you'll pardon my saying
so Uncle Fester

This works okay when what's needed is a brief comment from each of the
people in a fairly small environment to a given proposal, but becomes
increasingly difficult to follow -- expecially when parts are chopped out,
parts left in -- when longer comments and the complex back and forthing
that characterizes a good mailing list discussion are the order of the day.

*

Coming from the "threaded mailing list" tradition of email writing, there's
a whole other aesthetic that says "only quote as much as you have to of
someone else's post" because some people pay for their email by the line,
and archival space costs money too -- the great advantage of the "short
quotes only" style is that it saves bandwidth -- but of course the problem
there is the one that Simon identifies, that a quote may be taken out of
context.

When Christ on the cross allegedly said "Why hast thou forsaken me" he was
in fact quoting one of the psalms, and as I understand it, doing so in a
rabbinic manner which implied his hearers would "understand" the whole
psalm was being referred to, and not take his quote as an isolated remark
but remember the whole of the original context.  And the rest of the psalm,
from what I recall, is actually far less "abandoned / hopeless" feeling
than the "forsaken me" bit taken by itself.

[Glass bead game aside: Jesus and the Addams family juxtaposed in one post,
5 points for bizarre leaps of thought.]

My sense is that people often use a phrase from another's post to take off
on a tangent of their own.  When this happens, if the discussion on the
conference I belong to is anything to go by, the person quoted often feels
misquoted, the person quoting often feels "but I wasn't directly addressing
your extended point", and a great deal of laborious tidying up may be
necessary.  On other occasions, the quoter was basically using the
"rabbinic technique", quoting on the assumption that the context would be
remembered -- and so on.

Exactly how one feels about a given quote may depend on such personal
issues as whether one reads the posts at intervals in a mixed download of
many threads, back to back in a download of only one thread, back to back
on a threaded archive, etc.  The very same quote might feel very different
if read back to back with the quoted post than when read with twenty five
posts and three internet sessions between them.

*

We're new at this stuff, we're still trying to figure out the ways to make
mailing lists, conferences, chat rooms, MUDs and so on work for us, and I
think we all need to cut each other slack for the fact that we have
different styles, we haven't worked out the kinks yet, sometimes we fire of
a reply *fast* to get it in before the conversation sweeps on to the next
thing, sometimes we take the time to edit, and make very careful use of
quotes.

Me, I don't much like the quotes where a whole section of text is preceded
by << and followed by >>, and much prefer the "> text" formula.  But that's
partly because -- at least one the list I run -- people often use the
initial << without ever closing the quote with the second >>, which gets
mighty confusing, and even more so when there's a whoe section of single
">"s inside the larger "<< ... >>".  Know what I mean?

But then I'm a graphics freak, and compulsively try to get those straggly
single words which become lines of their own when my mailing system adds a
line break in someone else's quote back into shape, so that I can read
things more easily.  Which is why I also tend to reformat whatever I'm
quoting from, and make sure the quotes have no line breaks with single word
lines in them, and in general spend hours cutting and pasting in a word
processor before I post.  Which not everybody has time for.

And try to use "::  quote" when I'm quoting from outside the current
thread, from a book, say, and ">  quote" when I'm quoting a previous post
in the thread.

One of these days, I'd like to write up a "style manual for email" which
would get into all these things in a little more depth, because I think the
distraction caused by mixed quote styles, by some people using the
"rabbinic" method and others leaving the entire text of a long post at the
bottom of their own, and so on, all adds unnecessarily to the already
problematic issue of human communication, misunderstanding and
understanding.  Phew!  But it would be quite a task, and right now I have
other more pressing / interesting things on my plate.

One of these days, though, it would be nice to have a "FAQ on Quoting
Styles in Cyberspace".

*

All of which is addressed, in my own "poster's" intent, to an *issue* that
crops up all over cyberspace, and not in an adversarial fashion to any
particular participant here on Psyber-L.

Best to all,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:43:50 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <199806130701.KAA20129@walrus.megabaud.fi>
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At 10:01 AM 6/13/98 +0300, Anita wrote:
>Just a short comment, before I withdraw from this stage  - for  your safety,
>Julienne, otherwise I might begin to hew with my axe.

Hmmmmm....axed by e-mail? :)

>      You wrote:
>>When I first introduced myself JoAnne immediately described me as
>>an untrustworthy liar - or words to that affect.
>     I don't  buy JoAnne's  or anyone else's  descriptions about you, I only
>trust  your own words.
>   As so far as popular psychobabble, you refer to astrology,

First of all, I do not only refer to astrology, but also to osychology,
neuroscience,
etc.

I refer to
>Jung who said : What  is not  conscious  inwardly,  will come  from outside
>- like Fate. I don't  recall the exact formulation.  Ask  HooN or Robert,
>perhaps  they recall.

Jung, fyi, aslo studied and used astrology in his workm and his
daughter, Gret Bauman-Jung is also an astrologer, and was on my
Board of Directors and wrote for my magazine.

You refer to the Shadow...

So what part of your rejected self am I - coming to you from outside?

>And now I will enter to my  private  house of words,"where  silence remains
>forever kneeling", as Ritsos put it in his  poem: Meaning of  Simplicity.
>"Every word is a way out
>for an encounter often canceled,
>and it's then a word is true, when it insists on the encounter."

Well, you're safe, Anita - I am not coming after you with an axe.

I don't think we should ever be sure we understand another human being -
we hardly understand ourselves - so it's not such a good idea to judge
others too adamantly.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:17:11 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psychological Explorations
In-Reply-To:  <35868c3e.8318814@smtp.xtra.co.nz>
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At 09:19 PM 6/13/98 +0000, Walter wrote:
>All,
>
>Aside:  It is easy to go sarcastic and say: OK here is more
>left-brained waffle crap or confused musings from Walter ...

<laugh> Sorry, Walter! Hey - I'm perfectly capable of waffling
too...I don't really want to hurt your feelings...only when I'm
feeling hurt myself and can't think of a better approach for the
moment. :) But I also don't want my feelings hurt...

>In chatting all this, (the state of Psyber-L as I portray it!)
>over with Kate, she said, that "psychological explorations
>involve hitting out against the crucible."  (Interesting thoughts
>eh, as we are entering the crucible of marriage! We just agreed
>that our bucking at the walls is well over.  We also agreed that
>it will give us containment to come up against when there is
>conflict. )

Sensible Kate! :)

>After discussion and some useful prompts from Susan who is a
>teacher in rhetoric,  the files now say  that "ad hominem attacks
>are not wanted".  What does it do to the "crucible" if there are
>such attacks, and there are no consequences?

My list has two rules (despite JoAnne's statement that we have none) -
and one of them is "no ad hominem attacks".  The problem I have
found with this that there has been the occasional person (actually
only 0ne - JoAnne) who claims not to know what that means. So - I
would suggest explaining what it means - and that the explanation
should be a good page long, with at least 7 examples. :)

>Judith was responding to Nancy:

>> > Hey, guys!  We 'held' the 'container' together!  'Dad'
>> > didn't have to step in and slow our growth by 'protecting'
>> > or 'ostracising.  Ain't we done GOOD?
>
>and Julienne who wrote:
>
>> But, just to keep the record straight,   Walter did step and threaten that
>> he could unsubscribe...

>I did.  In an effort to ensure that we have a container, that we
>do not loose the plot.  I have also refrained from doing that ...
>right by some, wrong by others.  I am confused ... and at the
>same time trusting the process with ease ... we seem to be doing
>well.

Well, what irritated me is that you seem to choose me (or so
it feels) when you finally lose patience. Please choose someone
else next time. ?

>Both Dolores and Julienne have made very dismissive statement
>about the "work" of this list, yet, somehow I think it is
>happening.

Walter, I didn't come on this list to do "work".  I was told this was a
 list for listowners - and so I came on here thinking we'd just be
exchanging ideas about running our lists. No one gave me the slightest
clue this list was about doing psychological "work". I now am actually
beginning to get a kick out of this thorny little group of people assembled.
I doubt if we would have picked each other for two seconds - but that
actually means we may very well learn a whole lot more in the long run.
We are very different people with clashing beliefs, clashing values,
clashing communication styles.

>JoAnne, In the following post:

>quotes Julienne:
>
>> >But then we decided to put a list together, and problems began.
>> >You wanted lots of specifications and rules and long lists of
>> >goodies about how people should behave, and instructions
>> >on how they should write their posts, etc. And I freaked. I
>> >don't like to regiment people and surround them with rules.
>> >I wanted a sweeping philosophical/spiritual/caring statement
>> >telling people we had this giant vision and would walk hand-
>> >in-hand as we explored things together.
>
>And responds:
>
>> And I freaked at your statement, having been on lists and groups and
>> having worked and socialized and been in other groups with people
>> where that kind of sweeping positive ideal was the only rule, and
>> things went right down the toilet.


>Wow.  That very conflict you have here is the inner conflict i am
>having round the nature of the files we have here.
>
>Where does that leave us here?

Well, despite JoAnne's avowed penchant for "the truth" - CHA*OS
actually does have some rules - as mentioned above - and as in
The Welcome Letter which I forwarded to you at your request some
months ago and on which you never commented.

And as for the toilet - the only time things went down the toilet was
when JoAnne steadfastly refused recently to honour the no ad hom
attacks rule - insisting that calling someone names and questioning
their motives was not an ad hominem attack. (Don't get upset, JoAnne -
this is not to stir things up again - just to deal with Walter's thoughts.)
Unfortunately, when one person on a list does it, it encourages others
to as well, and so we had one other woman and three men join in with
her. We lost over a hundred members - some of whom are only just
starting to trickle back. One of the angry men went over to JoAnne's list.

>I think we have a broad sweeping philosophy which Julienne does
>not wish to acknowledge, and one statement about personal attacks
>which JoAnne is prepared to contravene.

Oh. I wrote the above paragrah before reading this paragraph.
What's the philosophy I don't wish to acknowledge?

>Mysterious!  Interesting.  Mentioned by me without a feeling of
>blame, more as an observation, contribution and a desire to
>participate in the "resolution" of this conflict, as it is highly
>pertinent to me, and Psyber-L as a whole.
>
>More than ever do I think that the whole process is systemic and
>we have here *exactly* what we need.

Well, I don't know whether we have exactly what we need, but
we have what we have - and this is what we have to work with.

So...ever on! Or "Forward!!" as my son says whenever I ask him
for directions in the car. Especially when I really want help in
choosing between directions...:)

Okay, Walter - let's muddle on...:)

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:18:53 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      A question...
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My question:

How many people on this list have children?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:49:40 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Simon, Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
In-Reply-To:  <v03110700b1a80630d29b@[195.200.19.123]>
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Simon:

>So then when you talk about how we're weaving a whole, and how the Dialogue
>thread exists in the context of other posts and would be less interesting
>without that context, it feels to me like you think I don't know this or
>feel it and you need to tell me. Which makes me wonder what you think my
>reasons were for posting the Dialogue quotes and forwarded posts here, and
>if you've listened to what I've written myself.
>
>Not everyone reading this list will be interested in the whole, of course.
>Some here have said in the past that they keep only certain posts that
>interest them, delete others. Helen wrote recently that she had deleted
>over 70 messages without reading them. So, if someone decides that my
>posts, or Julienne's and JoAnne's, or whoever's don't interest them, they
>might then delete them unread. And why not? That's their choice. Not
>everyone is going to be engaged with the *whole* process here - and, as far
>as I can see, there is no requirement (no onus) for them to be so engaged.
>I think there is not even this requirement for people who post to the list,
>let alone for the silent readers (and it was within the context of Miles
>coming from a silent-readerly perspective that I made my comment in the

>first place, so I had the silent readers in mind as well, not just the
>posters, when I said "if people" ). And if someone doesn't have that sense
>of holding to the whole, or a sense that all the posts contribute to 'the
>whole', then they won't feel any onus to read all the posts.

Hi Simon,

Well, isn't this the way it is in RL (isn't it all RL?) anyway? There are
those
who are right there for whatever's going on, those who don't want to deal
with an issue for whatever reason, those who avoid, deny, are afraid,
offended, bored?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 13:21:13 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: updating our sense of the game proposal
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne and Walter particularly, all interested:

Seems like list traffic has quieted, and agreement to proceed to the next
stage may be faiurly close...  Here's my current take:

I think we're pretty much agreed on Hoon's suggestion that we *not* post
postcards from the GBG list to Psyber-L, and that if we do it will only be
with group concensus.

And that the games themselves will be posted to Psyber-L in a move format
that I'll edit *only* to make sure that the games themselves are
self-explanatory to those who weren't there, again only with group
concensus.

And similarly that any commentary we post outside the group will be
pre-approved by all group participants.

*

I hope that takes care of the issue of Walter's involvement in the
editorial process.

His "list owner" function is, I hope, covered by the proposed agreement
that all participants will be subbed and unbsubbed only at the beginning
and end of each "intro > game > pause > closure" cycle -- or in *very*
exceptional circumstances if the group or game rules have been flagrantly
violated, and only then *in accordance with a protocol which the group has
discussed and agreed to during the setup period*.

Walter's "ceremonial" function of greeting and bidding farewell doesn't
seem to be a problem.

Walter's and Leon's advice seem me *me* to be valuable, but then I also
value everytone else's.  I dont think we can proceed with the games if I'm
not allowed to solicit advice from my friends, so I'd like Julienne to let
me know if that's agreeable.

*

What I'm trying to get at here is that I don't think Walter will be in an
"authoritative position" that he *exercises* except if the "protocol" --
agreed by us all in advance during set up -- calls for him to eject
someone.  I think I'll be the one "holding the balance" if you like -- and
I'll be doing that via the rules of the group and the game, not via
personal preferences and opinions.

My personal preferences are:

(i) that the two principals, each working with their own authentic good
will towards a possibility of reconciliation, and with their emotions and
thoughts [however "right" or "wrong" anyone may privately think them] as
the accepted raw materials *from which the game is built*, should give the
game process a fair chance, and

(ii) that the rest of us should support that possibility with a complete
suspension of sniping but a willingness to discuss the process as it
unfolds, in our own games.

My opinions are:

(i) that both principals currently hold emotions which are valid within
their own systems and understandings, but in conflict interpersonally.

(ii) that a combination of honesty about one's own emotions, diplomacy with
regard to other's statements of theirs, cautious trust in the other
participants, and a willingness to allow the structure and constraints of
the group and game to focus the *expression* of these emotions is likely to
result in an emotionally powerful and insightful process, which might or
might not result in actual reconciliation.

(iii) that the main focuses of our trust will need to be in (a) the group
as a whole, with our group concensus as our safety-net against individual
abuses, (b) me, hipbone, as the referee, whose fairness derives from love
of the game and wish to see it fairly played, and (c) the structure of the
game itself, as a device for formalizing and containing emotion.

(iv) that passion and intellect can be structured by play into a process
that will contain its fair share of arger, fear, sadness, recognition,
surprise, humor and delight, hoipefully roughly in that order.

*

Julienne, Walter wrote recently:

> I would not want to send a "postcard" that did not meet with
> Julienne's approval.  Nor of course any that went without mine
> ... unless that was clear perhaps?  That is the spirit of the
> proposed confidentiality.

I think what Walter is getting at is that he doesn't want to "exercise
authority" in ways that leave any participant feeling disconnected or
unfairly treated.  Is that fair enough?

Julienne just now wrote, in response to another post:

> <laugh> Sorry, Walter! Hey - I'm perfectly capable of waffling
> too...I don't really want to hurt your feelings...only when
> I'm feeling hurt myself and can't think of a better approach
> for the moment. :) But I also don't want my feelings hurt...

How does the trust issue sit with you now, Julienne?  Sounds to me as
though things are already a little easier / friendlier in a number of
recent posts, with pretty much everyone making conciliatory gestures all
round...

Sooo.... Are you ready to iron out the rest of the details in the group
itself, and respond to the "form of words" I fairly carefully put together
a week or so back:

::  Would you each be willing (i) to bring your conflict into this
::  micro-situation of the game-list as described, (ii) in an attempt at
::  structured resolution, (iii) with no doubt cautious but serious
::  good-will towards that *possibility* of resolution -- ie a
::  willingness to give it your very best shot -- (iv) and to abide by
::  the constraints of the game and the list?

Walter, are you with me thus far -- enough to feel comfortable leaving some
details for later and to move towards the "invite and setup" process?

Where do we stand?

Best wishes to all,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:31:03 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

hey, Nancy,

You bet we did and I am in my continued awe...I think I wrote this in
response to someone weeks ago about faith by Richard Moss, a
transformational teacher...faith is the ability to stay...and from where I
sit there is  a LOT of faith going on here...

Judith dancing with all our joy

PS and it is taking all of us in all our complexity WOW...what a
high...sure is feeding this healing body...

and the gratitude continues

>Dancing with joy..
>      Hey, guys!  We 'held' the 'container' together!  'Dad' didn't have
>to step in and slow our growth by 'protecting' or 'ostracising.  Ain't we
>done GOOD?
>
>      Wanna join 'game' (ugh...Dolorise....hold my hand....)  Don' wanna
>be left out.  Probably all feel this.....more than 16???
>
>     Enough!  (Simon, please don' getta scanner.  *G*
>
>            Nancy (the Presumptuous One)  going to get a v-8 to won't take
>a bite outa Tasty One.
>
>PS Barry, I too liked JoAnne's 'Jungian Jungle'
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:31:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne,
I didn't feel picked on...and yeah it usually takes as long as it takes...
>
>I just felt it was important for us not to be depersonalized. But it's all
>right...
>I didn't mean to pick on you rather than anyone else...
>
>>Something about the map is not the territory...
>
>Freshman English...Hayakawa?
>
>>snip

>I meant to ask you...did you mean you wanted to be on my list, CHA*OS? -
>or were you just speaking symbolically?

Oh, yes symbolically...boy, I must be out of my body...time to jump in place
>
Judith
>
>Julienne
>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:31:46 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: If we were the last ones left....
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey Hoon,

I spent lifetimes fixing faults I uncovered and those other's pointed out
and then I got to a place, probably brought on with an attack of aging,
where I notified those in my space that I had fixed all I was gonna fix
(cause I wanted to play with the time I have left) and the rest I
considered part of my charm and certainly would understand if other's
didn't share my idea of charm...

charming Judith ;-)
>Julienne writes,
>
>>There are studies which show that we all realize that we have faults,
>>and it is not having those faults mentioned which bothers us -
>>as long as we agree that those are our faults. When we
>>object is when we are accused or labelled with faults (or better -
>>traits) which we don't think are ours.
>
>Nothing pisses me off more than to be labelled with a fault I don't think I
>have, that in fact I do have, but don't want to have uncovered or revealed
>to me. That's my experience; (years later realizing, 'oh so that was what
>people were trying to point out.')
>
>***
>...no fault before its time?
>
>***
>
>HooN
>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:36:19 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: left and right brain
In-Reply-To:  <358d5115.238768125@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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JoAnne,

At 07:19 PM 6/12/98 +0000, you wrote:

>Judith was saying that the way to engage split brains is not to try to
>mix the two in parallel (at the same time) but to engage first one,
>and then the other.  I'm not against using both sides, just saying
>that I don't do well with both sides engaged at the same time.

Well, in truth, they are ALWAYS engaged together - it's just a
neuropsychological thing. We can't, without surgery or something,
separate them. However, if  our childhood programming teaches
us to undervalue one, or our natural character favours one at
the expense of the other, then there will be a situation such
as yours - where information from one side of the brain is
ignored, perhaps.

>>JoAnne - I see you as also being very left-brain developed.
>>I doubt if your relationship to your right brain is purely
>>genetic, because you are very angry or irritated at others'
>>expressions of emotions sometimes. This would suggest
>>to me that you were taught as a child not to honour or value
>>that side of yourself.  You get angry, as though looking at
>>something you've been forced to deny in yourself, while Walter
>>just seems befuddled and wonders what is going on and
>>seems to hope it will go away because it's confusing him.
>>On the other hand, JoAnne, you actively attack it to chase
>>it away, so I would imagine that as a child you found more
>>respone to the intelligent and pushy JoAnne than to the
>>potentially sensitive JoAnne with Pisces rising.
>
>That's quite true.  The sensitive JoAnne exists but she is not for
>general consumption!

But she gets angry when others express that side of themselves,
because she perhaps resents that they allow themselves to
express what she has had to repress.

<snip>

>>On top of that, I had just learned a few months previously
>>that my mother was dying, and was also experiencing a
>>number of other emotionally devastating events in my life. You
>>and I now had a problem - because I also have a strongly
>>developed right brain, which I have somehow not learned to
>>ignore, probably to my disadvantage at times, but to my advantage
>>in others, and I am deeply emotional and nurturing and
>>empathic. My take on all this is that you distrusted the drama
>>of my life at the time - distrusted the depth of my feelings
>>(probably just thought I was hysterical), and maybe didn't
>>even believe what was going on in my life - and you and
>>came to a clashing impasse.

>I believed the facts of what you said but felt your interpretations of
>some of the facts were extreme, and, here we go again, mixing the left
>and right brain stuff too much; letting the right brain convince the
>left brain of stuff that wasn't really believeable to me.  Because you
>were under stress, I think you were overreacting to some of the other

>things that were happening.

Do you still believe this? What ended up happening was even more
extreme than I envisioned when you and I first started the list. How
does one "over-react" to what I was going through? What if you had
been a therapist, and I had come to you for counseling? Would you
have just told me I was overreacting? I think the only way I got through
(and it's not through yet) was because I had been doing this work
myself for years, and guiding others through it. I put into effect
everything I could think of to get through. And I haven't told you
or the list all the events - like the 17 times the police came to the
house, the 7 times in court ( there was never a judgement
against me) and so much more. My mother refused to see me
the last 4 months of her life, and disinherited me a few weeks
before she died.  So much more - but I really don't want to have
to giving details to have to "prove" that what I was going through
was unbearable.

>>Thinking I was just being overly-sensitive and unreasonable
>> - you took off very quickly without a word - after we had only had
>>the list together for 3 weeks. You had attacked me on the list
>>- and when called on it by others, you protested that this was
>>just an intellectual discussion - and so what was the problem?
>>You thought we were just pitting our brains against each other,
>>and yet I felt very hurt and already vulnerable and as though you
>>were attacking me. We were playing different games, with different
>>rules. I saw you as the cruel bitch from hell, and you saw me as the
>>drama queen faking emotions.
>>
>>Does this have any resonance for you?

>Yes, quite a bit.  I still cringe at the word "attacked" but later in
>the paragraph you seem to say that is your perception, and not my
>intention.

Well...let's say that is true, and it wasn't your intention. When others
called it to your attention, why didn't you stop, or at least talk to me
about it?

>>Now - this is far too long - and maybe everyone's sick
>>of this stuff - and this is very superficial and incomplete -
>>but what the hell. It's helping me to make sense of it all.
>
>It's helping me, too.
>
> >Thanks, I think this was very productive.

Well...do you see it works better when I speak to your left brain?

How would it feel to you to speak to my right brain?


Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:43:20 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG: One last tiny question, Charles

Charles,   What is the approximate time frame for ...one game (?)
  I think we all need to know what we are promising in terms of commitment.
  If you've already covered this, I missed it.
  I went back and did a little browsing re: the dream event and think I understand your desire that we all make a commitment not to enter or leave until there is some, at least interim, closure.
    Thanks in advance,  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:50:29 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah

You're a sweetie, Judith.  Were it in my power to send, healing would surround you like a gentle spring mist of rose petals catching the light of dawn.
     Love, Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:55:52 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Tim <tigu@GTE.NET>
Subject:      Re: A question...
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>How many people on this list have children?
>
>Julienne
>


        Tim raises his hand from the back of the room.....hope the teacher
sees it..:)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:02:19 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: updating our sense of the game proposal
In-Reply-To:  <l03130303b1a88cf61a69@[38.29.10.84]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 01:21 PM 6/13/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Julienne and Walter particularly, all interested:
>
>Seems like list traffic has quieted, and agreement to proceed to the next
>stage may be faiurly close...  Here's my current take:
>
>I think we're pretty much agreed on Hoon's suggestion that we *not* post
>postcards from the GBG list to Psyber-L, and that if we do it will only be
>with group concensus.

Good. :) (Thanks, HooN...:)

>And that the games themselves will be posted to Psyber-L in a move format
>that I'll edit *only* to make sure that the games themselves are
>self-explanatory to those who weren't there, again only with group
>concensus.

okay....I think....?

and similarly that any commentary we post outside the group will be
>pre-approved by all group participants.

okay

>I hope that takes care of the issue of Walter's involvement in the
>editorial process.

yes...

>His "list owner" function is, I hope, covered by the proposed agreement
>that all participants will be subbed and unbsubbed only at the beginning
>and end of each "intro > game > pause > closure" cycle -- or in *very*
>exceptional circumstances if the group or game rules have been flagrantly
>violated, and only then *in accordance with a protocol which the group has
>discussed and agreed to during the setup period*.

wow...sounds *awfully* serious..."flagrantly"! ?

>Walter's "ceremonial" function of greeting and bidding farewell doesn't
>seem to be a problem.

??? Yes it does...

>Walter's and Leon's advice seem me *me* to be valuable, but then I also
>value everytone else's.  I dont think we can proceed with the games if I'm
>not allowed to solicit advice from my friends, so I'd like Julienne to let
>me know if that's agreeable.

Hey - you're not puting any pressure on me, are you? :) Leon's
advice, fine. But it depends on the extent of Walter's. Why do you
need special advice from Walter?

>What I'm trying to get at here is that I don't think Walter will be in an
>"authoritative position" that he *exercises* except if the "protocol" --
>agreed by us all in advance during set up -- calls for him to eject
>someone.  I think I'll be the one "holding the balance" if you like -- and
>I'll be doing that via the rules of the group and the game, not via
>personal preferences and opinions.

Then what will you be consulting him on?

>My personal preferences are:
>
>(i) that the two principals, each working with their own authentic good
>will towards a possibility of reconciliation, and with their emotions and
>thoughts [however "right" or "wrong" anyone may privately think them] as
>the accepted raw materials *from which the game is built*, should give the
>game process a fair chance, and
>
>(ii) that the rest of us should support that possibility with a complete
>suspension of sniping but a willingness to discuss the process as it
>unfolds, in our own games.
>
>My opinions are:
>
>(i) that both principals currently hold emotions which are valid within
>their own systems and understandings, but in conflict interpersonally.
>
>(ii) that a combination of honesty about one's own emotions, diplomacy with
>regard to other's statements of theirs, cautious trust in the other
>participants, and a willingness to allow the structure and constraints of
>the group and game to focus the *expression* of these emotions is likely to
>result in an emotionally powerful and insightful process, which might or
>might not result in actual reconciliation.

>
>(iii) that the main focuses of our trust will need to be in (a) the group
>as a whole, with our group concensus as our safety-net against individual
>abuses, (b) me, hipbone, as the referee, whose fairness derives from love
>of the game

Hey! Don't you love us as well? See what I mean about the intellectual
accent around here?

>and wish to see it fairly played, and (c) the structure of the
>game itself, as a device for formalizing and containing emotion.

"formalizing" emotion? Methinks he jests...:)

>(iv) that passion and intellect can be structured by play into a process
>that will contain its fair share of arger, fear, sadness, recognition,
>surprise, humor and delight, hoipefully roughly in that order.

?????

>Julienne, Walter wrote recently:

>> I would not want to send a "postcard" that did not meet with
>> Julienne's approval.  Nor of course any that went without mine
>> ... unless that was clear perhaps?  That is the spirit of the
>> proposed confidentiality.
>
>I think what Walter is getting at is that he doesn't want to "exercise
>authority" in ways that leave any participant feeling disconnected or
>unfairly treated.  Is that fair enough?

sure

>Julienne just now wrote, in response to another post:
>
>> <laugh> Sorry, Walter! Hey - I'm perfectly capable of waffling
>> too...I don't really want to hurt your feelings...only when
>> I'm feeling hurt myself and can't think of a better approach
>> for the moment. :) But I also don't want my feelings hurt...
>
>How does the trust issue sit with you now, Julienne?  Sounds to me as
>though things are already a little easier / friendlier in a number of
>recent posts, with pretty much everyone making conciliatory gestures all
>round...

My gut feeling is that I don't really yet trust Walter. And it *is* a gut
feeling - because my tummy clutches every time you speak of Walter
having a special role in this. No matter how I consciously think
I have forgiven Walter, my subconscious clearly is still remembering
he wasn't there when I appealed to him last year. It's not because I think
Walter is a rotten human being, but because I feel there is an
emotional disconnect - and that's not safe for me.

>Sooo.... Are you ready to iron out the rest of the details in the group
>itself, and respond to the "form of words" I fairly carefully put together
>a week or so back:

Yes...

>::  Would you each be willing (i) to bring your conflict into this
>::  micro-situation of the game-list as described, (ii) in an attempt at
>::  structured resolution, (iii) with no doubt cautious but serious
>::  good-will towards that *possibility* of resolution -- ie a
>::  willingness to give it your very best shot -- (iv) and to abide by
>::  the constraints of the game and the list?

Whatever you said...:)

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 15:43:33 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: updating our sense of the game proposal
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne, JoAnne, all:

After a lot of other stuff, I asked Julienne:

> Are you ready to iron out the rest of the details in the group
> itself, and respond to the "form of words" I fairly carefully put
> together a week or so back:

To which Julienne replied:

> Yes...

And I quoted myself:

::  Would you each be willing (i) to bring your conflict into this
::  micro-situation of the game-list as described, (ii) in an attempt at
::  structured resolution, (iii) with no doubt cautious but serious
::  good-will towards that *possibility* of resolution -- ie a
::  willingness to give it your very best shot -- (iv) and to abide by
::  the constraints of the game and the list?

To which she said:

> Whatever you said...:)

I think that's the bottom line -- and sound like we're ready to proceed to
writing up an invite, putting it on the list, gathering the interested
parties and subbing them in the new place < big out breath > where we can
make sure we're seeing eye to eye on any remaining details...

And with that in mind, now back to the rest of Julienne's post:

*

Julienne, you wrote:

> wow...sounds *awfully* serious... "flagrantly"! ?

I wanted to make it sound dangerous, and even a tad darkly erotic,
Julienne, because I'm playful with words.  "In flagrante"...  Bizarre sense
of humor, me.  I hope and trust we won't need such extreme recourses as
unsubbing people, and that everyone will abide by the spirit and letter etc
etc etc.

>Walter's "ceremonial" function of greeting and bidding farewell doesn't
>seem to be a problem.

> Hey - you're not puting any pressure on me, are you? :) Leon's
> advice, fine. But it depends on the extent of Walter's. Why do
> you need special advice from Walter?

I'm trying to be gracious to my friend and colleague and host, while
finding a way of saying things that will also give you confidence,
Julienne.  I wrote:

>What I'm trying to get at here is that I don't think Walter will be in an
>"authoritative position" that he *exercises* except if the "protocol" --
>agreed by us all in advance during set up -- calls for him to eject
>someone.  I think I'll be the one "holding the balance" if you like -- and
>I'll be doing that via the rules of the group and the game, not via
>personal preferences and opinions.

You then asked,

> Then what will you be consulting him on?

My basic concern will be to have *anyone* who feels things are getting
seriously off balance point me to the problem.  Again, I'm trying to be
courteous to Walter while setting your concerns at rest.

I wrote:

>(iii) that the main focuses of our trust will need to be in (a) the group
>as a whole, with our group concensus as our safety-net against individual
>abuses, (b) me, hipbone, as the referee, whose fairness derives from love
>of the game

And you commented:

> Hey! Don't you love us as well? See what I mean about the
> intellectual accent around here?

LOL!  I was trying to describe the idea of a referee, Julienne, not to
characterize myself.  Should have made that clearer.

As far as my own biases are concerned -- I show up as an intuitive with
almost no sensation function <grin>, but with balanced thinking and feeling
functions on the Myers-Briggs: in fact I find all the questions designed to
locate a "preference" for either head or heart very hard to answer, because
I always want to answer "both -- you can't have one without the other"!
But to the extent that I finally choose one or the other if *forced* to
decide, I choose "heart" options.

But I do love the game too, I do want to see it well and fairly played.

I wrote:

> a device for formalizing and containing emotion.

To which you replied:

> "formalizing" emotion? Methinks he jests...:)

LOL again.  I meant this in the same sense that ee cummings "formalizes"
emotions in his love poems, or Dylan Thomas "formalizes" grief and rage in
"Do Not Go Gentle".  The sonnet and the villanelle are tight forms, but
extraordinary passion can flow through them.

I think you'll find my games are formal devices much like the formal
devices of poetry in this respect.

> My gut feeling is that I don't really yet trust Walter. And it *is*
> a gut feeling - because my tummy clutches every time you speak
> of Walter having a special role in this. No matter how I
> consciously think I have forgiven Walter, my subconscious
> clearly is still remembering he wasn't there when I appealed to
> him last year. It's not because I think Walter is a rotten human
> being, but because I feel there is an emotional disconnect - and
> that's not safe for me.

You're posting repeatedly on Psyber-L, presenting your gut-feeling about
Walter quite up front here... effectively, you're "trusting that a current
backlog of lack of trust can be dealt with" -- and I think if we call that
"cautious trust", you can come to the game group with the "cautious" part
intact, and will find that the "trust" part is justified by the process as
a whole.

And if at the end you wanna play a round with you and Walter as
"principals" <grin>...

*

And so back to Julienne's final words:

> Yes...

> Whatever you said...:)

We now seem to have two "principals" agreeing to play.

I'm going to draft an invite...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:41:16 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Moonasylum <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Subject:      Re: A question...
In-Reply-To:  <19980613190150.XZD21728@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello, Julienne

At 02:18 PM 6/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>My question:
>
>How many people on this list have children?

I have one daughter, who is 19 and who is moving to Florida Thursday.  I
have called Karyn "my wild wise wiccan womanchild" (my screen name,
moonasylum, was chosen more for her than me) and I love her to the depths
of my being, so it saddens me to have her go so far away -- yet I trust
that it is time for her to seek her own path in life.

I am wondering why you ask this question, and why now?

Marie

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:07:40 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: question: anger in posts
In-Reply-To:  <l03130300b1a862801b16@[38.12.87.104]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Charles,

Thanks for asking ...

> Could you clarify something for me?  When you write that you felt angry at
> a certain point, are you "responding angrily", or "trying to be honest
> about the fact that some anger arose in you" in response to something, but
> "in a not angry but self-reflective way", or a bit of both -- or doesn't
> that distinction work for you, or what?

The distinction works for me.  Being angry in an active way and
reporting on the feeling are distinct, in my take on them.

I do not have a specific situation in mind, mostly I will report
on my feelings of anger, and or hurt simply to be honest real and
not emotionally distant!  At times, I may go beyond that ... I am
here as a human and feel quite hurt by some of the things that
are being said to and about me ...

A lot of the time I make an effort to suspend the feelings and
look into my own past and experience to see if i am being
triggered ... they can sometimes be the case, though the trigger
was also real.

> I think that saying "this annoyed me" as an attempt to get to grips with
> one's own feelings -- by not only monitoring the feelings themselves
> closely but making sure one takes one's "notations" public without name
> calling -- is a very different thing from responding angrily.  But it can
> easily feel like it, particularly here in cyberspace, unless one makes the
> distinction very clear.

Yes.  I think it is wise to assume good intentions and mostly I
manage that, if I find it hard, I will ask others what their
intention was when i feel hurt or attacked.  If I have misread or
offended someone, when I do not intend that then it feels good to
have it drawn to my attention and I am willing to apologise for
that.

Your point about making the distinction very clear is a good one.


How does this sound to you Charles?  My guess is that you are
seeking dialogue about emotions in cyberspace and attempting to
establish ways of including them without creating excessive
difficulty.  Is that it?


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 20:13:51 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG: Constraints

On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:46:53 -0700, Charles Cameron  wrote:

>Constraints:
>
>There would be a number of constraints in place, which would need to be
>agreed in advance by all participants.  In this post, I discuss the
>constraints of membership, duration, privacy and publication.
>
>If you might be interested in participating in the proposed "Glass Bead
>Game" on PsyberNet, please read the following closely.
>
>List membership:
>
>List membership should not exceed sixteen persons.  All members would agree
>to participate actively by posting in the appropriate manner.
>
>Membership would be for complete "game cycles" only.  All those who agreed
>to join the list would agree not to leave until the "game cycle"
>(definition below) reached closure.  Similarly, only those who accepted the
>initial invitation would be able to participate: new members would not be
>able to join until a particular "game cycle" was closed.
>
>Game cycles:
>
>A "game cycle" would begin with a two week period of introductions, the
>setting forth of the list purpose, "rules of engagement", boards, answering
>questions and other preparations.
>
>A "principal game" would be played between two individual parties in
>conflict ("the principals").  The principals would agree in advance to
>follow the rules of play as posted, and as moderated by myself as "games
>master" with advice from Walter as host and Leon as special consultant.
>Games would be played at a rate of one move every three days until
>complete: 10-move games would thus last roughly a month each, and since
>these would be two-person games, neither party would be obliged to play
>more than roughly once a week.
>
>At the end of a principal game, the "game cycle" would be completed by a
>two week period with no posts from either player, and a two week period of
>discussion, summing up and closure.
>
>At the end of a "game cycle", either of the principals could choose to
>leave the list, to continue as observers, or offer to play another round.
>There would be no time limit to the possible sequence of "game cycles",
>though if both principals in one "game cycle" wished to continue together
>as principals in the next, they would have the opportunity to do so.
>
>Other participants:
>
>The list would also be open for other participants to post comments on the
>process explored on the list at any time, except during the two week "quiet
>period" after a principle game.  Those not playing in the principal games
>would be encouraged to make use of Game boards to formalize their own
>comments and insights within the game structure: again, I would be
>available as "game master" to moderate these games.
>
>The principals in any current game would agree not to respond to activity
>in the *non-principals section of the list* during the period of principal
>gameplay -- so that their own energy would be focused into their own
>principal game, and other participants would feel free to comment in their
>own posts and games.
>
>During the two week discussion and closure period at the end of a game
>cycle, all participants would be invited to join in the discussions, on the
>understanding that their purpose at that point is to facilitate Walter and
>myself in editing and presenting the completed game(s) for posting to
>Psyber-L.
>
>Privacy and Publication:
>
>As noted above, the list would be a private one -- in so far as the
>technology permits such a thing -- and any list archives would be available
>exclusively to the list's own members.
>
>All members would agree not to quote any materials posted within the list,
>outside of it, nor to show them to anyone aside from their own
>whaddayacallem "significant other" -- and only then with an explicit
>understanding that the materials go no further.
>
>It would however be our group intention to post completed games -- though
>not the surrounding discussions -- on Psyber-L.
>
>It would also be our intention for Charles (as designer of the HipBone
>Games) and Walter (as host of PsyberNet) to be able to present completed
>games and materials describing the context and process of the list in
>appropriate arenas for the discussion of the HipBone Games, the psychology
>of conflict resolution, psyche and process on the Internet, etc.
>
>Participants would therefore agree in advance that their game moves would
>be available for these purposes.
>
>Suitable editing might be necessary, however, since these "publication
>versions" of the games would need to be coherent and sufficiently
>contextualized to "make sense" to outside readers, and a major focus of the
>"discussion, summary and closure" section of the "game cycle" would be to
>allow the necessary editing and fine-tuning of these materials as
>appropriate.
>
>Changes:
>
>Any changes in these constraints should be discussed by participants *on
>the games list* during the "introductions and preparations" phase.
>
>Next post: About the games themselves
>
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>

To quote Juliene: "Whatever you said :-)"

>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:25:24 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <199806122231.BAA10065@walrus.megabaud.fi>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Anita,

At 01:31 13/06/98 +0300, you wrote:
>The Axe murderer image is a picture of energy in me that projects out from
>me onto  - let's say - JoAnne and gets her to attack. I'm  not a victim. On
>the inner level I'm  an axe murderer, a rapist and a child molester. Tvat
>tvam asi.

I am really curious about this 'tvat tvam asi' thing... can you tell
us more about it?

Is it some baltic epithet to the effect that "on an inner level
we are all muderers, rapists and child molestors" ?? I should
think not..

Actually, its interesting ... just now I think
it would suprise me if it did have such a meaning.
In a way I would think that such an idea, such a 'pattern' of thought,
would be a particularly modern type of thought.

So quick, put me out of my misery before I start attacking
any more innocent trees with my barking.  Or something .






---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/

          ( miles )

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:21:18 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: updating our sense of the game proposal
In-Reply-To:  <l03130304b1a8b0857972@[38.29.10.84]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 03:43 PM 6/13/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>Julienne, JoAnne, all:

>Julienne, you wrote:
>
>> wow...sounds *awfully* serious... "flagrantly"! ?
>
>I wanted to make it sound dangerous, and even a tad darkly erotic,
>Julienne, because I'm playful with words.  "In flagrante"...  Bizarre sense
>of humor, me.  I hope and trust we won't need such extreme recourses as
>unsubbing people, and that everyone will abide by the spirit and letter etc
>etc etc.

Is this going to be erotic? Hmmmm....sounding even better...:)
Flagrantly, darkly, erotic...this is much more than I expected :)

>>Walter's "ceremonial" function of greeting and bidding farewell doesn't
>>seem to be a problem.
>
>> Hey - you're not puting any pressure on me, are you? :) Leon's
>> advice, fine. But it depends on the extent of Walter's. Why do
>> you need special advice from Walter?
>
>I'm trying to be gracious to my friend and colleague and host, while
>finding a way of saying things that will also give you confidence,
>Julienne.  I wrote:

Well - I'm not into hierarchies. I think we should all be equally
involved in the ceromonies.

You can't say Walter is one of us - and then have him assuming all these
authoritative roles.

>You then asked,
>
>> Then what will you be consulting him on?
>
>My basic concern will be to have *anyone* who feels things are getting
>seriously off balance point me to the problem.  Again, I'm trying to be
>courteous to Walter while setting your concerns at rest.

So I assume yo will be equally courteous to all of us...?

>I wrote:
>
>>(iii) that the main focuses of our trust will need to be in (a) the group
>>as a whole, with our group concensus as our safety-net against individual
>>abuses, (b) me, hipbone, as the referee, whose fairness derives from love
>>of the game
>
>And you commented:
>
>> Hey! Don't you love us as well? See what I mean about the
>> intellectual accent around here?
>
>LOL!  I was trying to describe the idea of a referee, Julienne, not to
>characterize myself.  Should have made that clearer.

>
>As far as my own biases are concerned -- I show up as an intuitive with
>almost no sensation function <grin>, but with balanced thinking and feeling
>functions on the Myers-Briggs: in fact I find all the questions designed to
>locate a "preference" for either head or heart very hard to answer, because
>I always want to answer "both -- you can't have one without the other"!
>But to the extent that I finally choose one or the other if *forced* to
>decide, I choose "heart" options.

I want to take the test...how can I do so?

>But I do love the game too, I do want to see it well and fairly played.

Do you realize that that's twice you've spoken of loving the game - without
loving us? :)

>I wrote:
>
>> a device for formalizing and containing emotion.
>
>To which you replied:
>
>> "formalizing" emotion? Methinks he jests...:)
>
>LOL again.  I meant this in the same sense that ee cummings "formalizes"
>emotions in his love poems, or Dylan Thomas "formalizes" grief and rage in
>"Do Not Go Gentle".  The sonnet and the villanelle are tight forms, but
>extraordinary passion can flow through them.

If by "formalizes" you mean puts a form around the words - then yes. But no
one can
encapsulate any emotion...

>I think you'll find my games are formal devices much like the formal
>devices of poetry in this respect.

Okay...

>> My gut feeling is that I don't really yet trust Walter. And it *is*
>> a gut feeling - because my tummy clutches every time you speak
>> of Walter having a special role in this. No matter how I
>> consciously think I have forgiven Walter, my subconscious
>> clearly is still remembering he wasn't there when I appealed to
>> him last year. It's not because I think Walter is a rotten human
>> being, but because I feel there is an emotional disconnect - and
>> that's not safe for me.
>
>You're posting repeatedly on Psyber-L, presenting your gut-feeling about
>Walter quite up front here... effectively, you're "trusting that a current
>backlog of lack of trust can be dealt with" -- and I think if we call that
>"cautious trust", you can come to the game group with the "cautious" part
>intact, and will find that the "trust" part is justified by the process as
>a whole.
>
>And if at the end you wanna play a round with you and Walter as
>"principals" <grin>...

Now THAT sounds interesting. :) I would like that.

>And so back to Julienne's final words:
>
>> Yes...
>
>> Whatever you said...:)
>
>We now seem to have two "principals" agreeing to play.
>
>I'm going to draft an invite...
Why, thank you, kind Sir.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:35:20 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Quoting
In-Reply-To:  <l03130302b1a871609b84@[38.12.87.104]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

<Charles>

  But then I'm a graphics freak, and
  compulsively try to get those straggly
  single words which become lines of their
  own when my mailing system adds a line break
  in someone else's quote back into shape, so that
  I can read things more easily.

</Charles>


 Have had hours non-fun
 struggling with this horrible problem, of annoying carriage returns right
where you don't want them - in the most annoying of places,

 I have the following tips;

  (a) hard code your *own* carriage returns
      where you want them to be.

  (b) never exceed more than about 50 chacters
      per line.

That way if you never get over the maximum charcters
per line, no computer at any point will ever put
a *bloody* carriage return in for you. Usually mail programs
will put a return in if lines exceed 80 characters per
line, though it is sometimes flexible.

It is *not* possible to turn carriage return
insert feature off completely, so don't even try.



---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
-------------------------
   miles@mail.com
   http://www.webolution.com.au/miles
-------------------------

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 20:53:16 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      "Tat Tvam Asi" was Re: [P] Ad hominem attacks
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Miles asks:

> I am really curious about this 'tvat tvam asi' thing... can you tell
> us more about it?

Funny you should ask, Miles, because Hermann Hesse uses the phrase a few
times in his poems and in the "Magic Theater" section of his novel,
*Steppenwolf*.

It's an Indian phrase, Sanskrit in fact, and one of the major "spiritual
slogans" (my words) of the Hindu system.  A little over a year ago, someone
on the Hesse list that I subsribe to asked the same question -- though not
in the context of axe-murder <g> -- and I wrote up and posted this longish
reply:

*

The phrase is glossed thus in the Glossary to Swami Vivekananda's
*Jnana-Yoga* or "Yoga of Knowledge":

::  "Tat tvam asi"  (Lit.,"That thou art.")  A sacred formula of the
::  Vedas denoting the identity of the individual self and the
::  Supreme Self.

If I am understanding this right, it means that the *atman* (individual
self) is declared to be identical with the *Brahman* (Supreme Self), or to
put it another way that the soul is in reality not other than Godhead.

I have always understood "Tat tvam asi" to be a complementary concept to
"Neti, neti", "Not this, not this", a phrase which is used to discriminate
between all that arises and is conditioned and has a name and a form on the
one hand, and the field of consciousness in which it arises on the other.

If something arises in consciousness, whether it be a perception (ie a
person, thing, process) or an idea (thought, melody, memory, emotion), it
is discriminated as "Neti", "Not this" and known to be a content in the
play of consciousness rather than consciousness itself.

The self, *atman*, is that which witnesses these arisings, and our habit of
identifying with our perceptions, and even more intimately with our
thoughts and emotions, obscures our otherwise natural experience of atman
as subsisting radiance.

As the flickering images of a film obscure the otherwise natural experience
of the silver screen...

"Neti, neti" thus discriminates all "characters", "props", "scenes", "plot
elements" etc from the unobscured cascade of light on the screen itself.
Identified with plot and character though we tend to be...

By knowing that we are not only not "things out there" but also not our
percepts of things out there, and not only not our percepts but also not
our thoughts or emotions or precious / precarious "sense of identity", we
come at last by this "path of knowledge" to a condition void of
particulars, in which the self shines free: at this point, the perceiver
(atman) perceives itself, in what sounds logically in words like a three
part process but is in fact a single seamless "be-ing".

The string, if you like, of perception does not go out and touch another,
as in normal perception, nor does it go out and return inwards, like a
string whose "end" touches its "beginning", as in introspection (which
nonetheless is indeed an "outward" looping process in so far as it
encompasses thoughts, which are themselves "out" with regard to the atman /
consciousness), but it is and abides in itself, as though the string's loop
or knot (of going and returning) had slipped and vanished...

Atman, then, is the introspective and thus apparently "personal" nature of
the ground of consciousness -- our silver screen.

And the remark / insight "Tat tvam asi" indicates that this screen is
itself non-separate from the universal screen or ground of consciousness,
ie that at the level at which we have now introspected, what we see is non
other than the arising ground of all phenomena and perceptions without
exception: atman is not "personal" (separate, belonging to "me")  but the
personal introspection (in me by my yogic perception) of a universal and
undivided ground (in all that exists as its ground of consciousness, to put
it mildly)...

And it is only at this experiential point, having, so to say, cleared away
all the identifications we make which are "not self" in that they are
arisings within the field of self, movie and not screen -- and which, this
is the hardest part, includes all thought and emotion -- and having
furthermore directly intuited the identitiy of the inward self with the
universal radiance, so that the last limitation of "self-specialness" has
fallen away, that the radiance of self as from within at last "has our
permission", so to speak, to express itself fully and directly as the love
of all that is, of all that moves, of all that arises...

To takes these truths as self-evident, to "believe" them or philosophically
hold them as truths, is not enough: the "Tat tvam asi" is a condition and
an experience, and it is in that condition that the experience manifests as
"loving thy neighbor as thyself" -- no longer as a moral imperative, no
longer as an effort, no longer as a sometimes mistaken or misplaced
kindness, no longer as a partial expression occluded by considerations and
passions and aversions and preferences, but as the creative ground itself
loves...

That's my understanding of what "Tat tvam asi" is all about from the yogic
angle...  So Hesse's vision of "Tat tvam asi" as "Love thy neighbor as
thyself" can be read as either an intellection of the implications of the
phrase, or as the proposal of the experience the phrase denotes -- and
given Hesse's "mystical" or "unitive" experiences (as recorded, for
instance, in the "awakenings" Knecht has along his life's path in the GBG),
it is clearly possible that he, like the Indians from whom he borrows the
phrase, intends it primarily in its fullest, experiential meaning.

For the sake of clarity, I should also add that the yoga of knowledge, or
"Jnana-yoga", of which Vivekananda writes, is paralleled by other paths to
the same end, such as the yoga of service ("Karma-yoga") in which all
actions are made and devoted to the Supreme, the yoga of devotion
("Bhakti-yoga") in which the emotional life becomes devotional as it is
lived in praise and worship of the Supreme, and yoga of the mind
("Raja-yoga") which is (roughly) the supreme method of realization
propounded by Patanjali in his *Yoga Sutras*.

I am not entirely clear whether the use of "Neti, neti" and "Tat tvam asi"
would be found only in Jnana- or Raja-yoga, or in both: "Tat tvam asi"
would represent a truth and an attainment, as I understand it, accessible
by means of any or all of these methods -- though the blissful devotion of
the bhakti-yogi would find all such "philosophizing" vain and empty in
comparison with his or her direct and overwhelming love of her or his Lord.

*

That, as I understand it, is the "highest" meaning of "Tat Tvam Asi", but I
believe it can also be understood as referring to anything whatsoever in a
formula "That art Thou: Neither Art Thou That" which expresses
simultaneously our identity with all phenomena (whether encountered in
mind, in heart or in outward reality) and the fact that no single
phenomenon is sufficient to encompass us.

As consciousness, we partake of the nature of all that arises, while as
conscious we are not identified with anything that arises.

Hoping this helps...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:49:30 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: question: anger in posts
In-Reply-To:  <3584b967.85427564@smtp.xtra.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:07 PM 6/14/98 +0000, Walter wrote:

>I do not have a specific situation in mind, mostly I will report
>on my feelings of anger, and or hurt simply to be honest real and
>not emotionally distant!  At times, I may go beyond that ... I am
>here as a human and feel quite hurt by some of the things that
>are being said to and about me ...

Walter...I came here as a human too...and was just left to deal
with feeling hurt for such a long time...

It feels really painful, doesn't it? At least it does to me...

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 01:16:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: "Tat Tvam Asi" was Re: [P] Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <l03130305b1a8f7dd4524@[38.29.10.84]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

among lots of goods Charles brings up,

>I am not entirely clear whether the use of "Neti, neti" and "Tat tvam asi"
>would be found only in Jnana- or Raja-yoga, or in both: "Tat tvam asi"
>would represent a truth and an attainment, as I understand it, accessible
>by means of any or all of these methods -- though the blissful devotion of
>the bhakti-yogi would find all such "philosophizing" vain and empty in
>comparison with his or her direct and overwhelming love of her or his Lord.

And I thought "think like an ant" would suffice!

***

I'm sitting with an older post of yours Charles, (Fri, 12 Jun 1998;
Subject:Re: Ad hominem attacks) because there's something wonderful
formulating when I ponder the miracle of the persons who come into our
lives and the contingencies that must be. Also, your expression about
wishing to be in service (and please pardon me for not restating your wish
for your self exactly how you expressed it,) and what that brings up for me.

This waits until tomorrow.

But, tonight, early morning in fact, I must, in a sense wave my hand if you
can imagine a musical scotch-irish graceful sort of wave over all the
possibles of describing such a thing as *tat tvam asi* to say what it
correlates with in my knowing, even as I must admit I've not yet served
this knowing...

Not wanting anything,
Fearing only God.

***

It is said the most creative prospect is 'the repentence to that which may
be imagined'; both a tough and esoteric way to view it *all* but the boiled
down given is: our imagination is both devil and lord. Thus, down a merely
different spoke of the yogic wheel comes this idea of *human* refinement
expressed as: not wanting, fearing only God,

and being God's servant.

...in the timeless color space between breaths.

***

forgive me if I'm in error!

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:59:22 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: updating our sense of the game proposal
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne, you write:

> Is this going to be erotic? Hmmmm....sounding even better...:)
> Flagrantly, darkly, erotic... this is much more than I expected :)

Well Julienne, in mythic terms *Eros* is in charge of all sorts of
attractions and connections, and the games are games of connections...
while *Psyche* is what Eros most wants to "connect" with hisself <big ole
grin indeed>.

> I'm not into hierarchies. I think we should all be equally involved
> in the ceromonies.

I'll bet you are so into hierarchies -- and wouldn't for instance want the
piloting of a plane you were in to be carried out by a consensus vote of
passengers.  But this could get us into an eleven-year debate at the end of
which we'd have an encyclopedia to our joint credit, and absolutely no
friends left, either one of us.

Walter and I will be co-hosts, because it's his list and my game.

> You can't say Walter is one of us - and then have him assuming
> all these authoritative roles.

I hope we'll all bring whatever strengths we have, and hold ourselves
accountable for our own weaknesses.  I don't see him "assuming all these
authoritative roles" -- in fact I see me doing most of that, because the
games are my games, and Walter being an insightful "one of us" who happens
to be the one who handles technical list matters, non-viable addresses and
bounced posts, co-signing the invitation, that sort of thing.  Beyond that,
it's all a matter of individual strengths and weaknesses as I see it.  But
see also the Q&A re surprises at the end of this post...

> I assume yo will be equally courteous to all of us...?

Yo, I will <grin>.  Legal small print: to the best of my abilities.

> I want to take the test...how can I do so?

There's a version of the Myers-Briggs on the web at

     http://www.keirsey.com/cgi-bin/keirsey/newkts.cgi

I turn out to be what Kiersey, the author of this particular test, calls an
"INFP" or "healer", but am only a shade away from being an "INTP" or
"designer".  On the cusp, as you'd say.  And not too far from "INFJ" and
"INTJ" either ("counselor" and "mastermind" respectively).

More in a separate post.

> Do you realize that that's twice you've spoken of loving the game
> - without loving us? :)

Absolutely.  I've lived with the game for three years... <grin>

More seriously, I'll almost never say that I love someone in response to
their saying it to me, or in response to their *asking* me: I reserve it
for those times it comes up naturally in myself, without any prompting.
That's a bit of an exaggeration, though, because I will anyway if the tone
is right, or if my own love for them is already well enough established not
to be in any question: but fundamentally I value the word too highly to use
it much "just to get by"...  and when I do use it, you'll know I mean it.

I don't yet love the sixteen people who will comprise our games -- but if
the Dream Event is anything to go by, I am liable to love each one of you
by the time we're through.

<aside>

Did you know that the question Jesus asks, "Simon son of Jonas, lovest thou
me?" in the gospels, to which Simon Peter three times replies "Yea, Lord,
thou knowest that I love thee" in the English translation, reads *very*
differently in the Greek?

Jesus asks "do you love me?" three times, and the first two times Peter
answers with a different word ("you know I'm fond of you" would be a rough
English equivalent), and the third time it's as though Peter gives in and
says "you know I love you" -- almost as if he'd sighed and said "oh,
alright, have it your way" under his breath first.  Very funny in the
Greek, and all too human.  Point completely lost in English, particularly
in the drone most preachers use reading the text out loud.

</aside>

I wrote:

>And if at the end you wanna play a round with you and Walter as
>"principals" <grin>...

And you replied:

> Now THAT sounds interesting. :) I would like that.

LOL.  Wait and see... the one thing I can predict is that there will be
many surprises.

> Why, thank you, kind Sir.

My pleasure, m'Lady.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:01:06 -0700
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      The Kiersey [adapted Myers-Briggs] test
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Julienne:

The test itself is fun and easy.  Interpreting the results is a little
trickier, because the terminology is not very well thought out, and the
words used to describe types and styles have "technical" meanings in the
context of the test that are rather different from their meanings in
everyday usage.  I hope the following notes will help you...

The eight terms which the test refers to come in pairs, and everyone tends
to have one of each pair that they tend towards, but as indicated above,
the terms themselves are a little confusing if you take them at face value.
And the reason that I find the test so helpful is that I'm *so* sure of my
leanings on one of the pairs, and almost completely unable to choose
between two of the others.

As I said, I turn out to be what Kiersey, the author of this particular
test, calls an "INFP" or "healer", but am only a shade away from being an
"INTP" or "designer".  On the cusp, as you'd say.  And not too far from
INFJ and INTJ either ("counselor" and "mastermind" respectively).

"I" means I'm more introverted (introspective) than extroverted ("E").

"N" means I'm iNtuitive  rather than ("S") Sensate -- but the terms are a
little misleading here: a "sensation function" person is someone who knows
what the physical world and the world of facts is doing, whereas the
intuitive is defined as someone who works with pattern and process.

"F" and "T" stand respectively for those who value things according to how
good they feel about them ("Feeling) vs those who value them according to
how their clarity apprehends value ("Thinking") -- roughly the approaches
of "mercy" and "justice" respectively.  I personally can hardly distinguish
between the two approaches, because for me they're two sides of the same
coin.  Head and heart need to work together in my book: I'm clear about
that -- I don't think it feels right any other way <grin>.

And "P" and "J" refer to "perception" and "judgment", which for reasons
that escape me are the words used to describe whether "the finished
product" is more important to you, or "the process".  Nothing about
"judgmental" vs "non-judgmental", in fact, just a question as to whether
you like closure more than process or process more than closure.  And
again, I'm someone who values both about equally, so it's a close call
whether I'm "INFP/INTP" cusp or "INFJ/INTJ".  I could pass for any one of
these, but what's pretty clear is that I'm more of an introvert than an
extrovert, and *way* more intuitive than sensate.

*

Carl Jung said that everyone would have one of the "middle four" (N or S, F
or T) as what he termed their "leading function", which would be their
basic strategy in life; probably some development of one or other or both
of the pair that was not their "leading function" (since my leading
function is N intuition, I'd have some F and some T, though not necessarily
balanced), and *real problems* with the one opposite their leading
function, aka their shadow.

So as an "N", I have problems with "S" predictably enough -- and that's the
area I need most work on, most fear, most easily get frustrated and angered
by and guilty about, etc.

As far as the other four are concerned, "E" and "I" are so fundamental that
they've passed into the language -- and "P" and "J" are later add-ons to
Jung's original system, as far as I know, and I'd be just as happy if they
went away again.

Hope this helps...



--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:35:46 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      the time it takes -- was Re: [P] GBG: One last tiny question,
              Charles
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Nancy asks:

> What is the approximate time frame for ...one game (?)
> I think we all need to know what we are promising in terms of
> commitment.
> If you've already covered this, I missed it.

Good question, to which the answer was (a) buried in a previous long post
and (b) perhgaps a little optimistic on one or two points.  Here's my
current (adjusted) thinking.

My guess is that it will take roughly a week from now till the invite goes
out, and roughly a week to corral the responses and make the cut-off at
sixteen if that many people want to join, sub the sixteen and send out the
first in-group announcement.  That means we should be starting the actual
group in about two weeks.

Then we have a schedule we'll [try our very best to] adhere to, which
currently looks like this:

(i)  I've been suggesting one week for setting out of preliminary rules,
getting to know one another, familiarizing ourselves with the board and
manner of play -- and if this took a little longer, that wouldn't be bad,
and is probably inevitable.  Let's say *three weeks* preliminaries, max.
My hope is that these three weeks won't be too volume intensive -- not as
intensive as a cpouple of days ago here on Psyber-L, when I got 20 posts
before 8am one morning.

(ii)  Two simultaneous games of ten moves, at a move pretty regularly every
three days, ie one month.  Again, the volume shouldn't be *too* heavy, but
prepping a move and following the game carefully is intense in other ways.

(iii)  Two weeks of group silence / rest.  Essential, in my view.  And
useful for meditating on, sleeping on, percolating on what has happened in
the games.

(iv)  Again, one to three weeks for coming to conclusions, editing and
presenting and revising any texts to then point of comfort and concensus.

(v)  Another break here, I'd expect, before a new cycle began.

*

Summing all that up, a cycle would be about 3 months, with a 2 week rest
period towards the end.  The game itself would take a month, with moves
every three days -- roughly one move a week for each player in a two-person
game.

It definitely is a commitment, though -- and in my experience, both worth
it, and the richer for it.

Best wishes,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:32:50 +1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: A question...
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Julienne

Daughter 20
Daughter 17
Son 14
Son 11

Barry
____________________________________
Barry Kennedy<kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:37:27 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: the time it takes -- was Re: [P] GBG: One last tiny question,
              Charles
In-Reply-To:  <l03130308b1a92d3fd867@[38.29.10.84]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Charles,

I've been reading back through your posts, and I'm still unclear as to what
is actually expected of the non-principals, other than having some general
notion about commenting on the moves made by the principals. To what
extent, if any, is the posting of non-principals formalised beyond this
particular general requirement? So far, you're laying out this expanding
timeframe, and I get the gist of the game itself, but I have no real sense
of what is involved or expected beyond the formalised 'centre'.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:07:13 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: updating our sense of the game proposal
In-Reply-To:  <l03130306b1a916737881@[38.29.10.84]>
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At 10:59 PM 6/13/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>Julienne, you write:
>
>> Is this going to be erotic? Hmmmm....sounding even better...:)
>> Flagrantly, darkly, erotic... this is much more than I expected :)
>
>Well Julienne, in mythic terms *Eros* is in charge of all sorts of
>attractions and connections, and the games are games of connections...
>while *Psyche* is what Eros most wants to "connect" with hisself <big ole
>grin indeed>.

Used to teach mythology. Now work with the asteroids Psyche and Eros. :)

 I'm not into hierarchies. I think we should all be equally involved
>> in the ceromonies.
>
>I'll bet you are so into hierarchies -- and wouldn't for instance want the
>piloting of a plane you were in to be carried out by a consensus vote of
>passengers.  But this could get us into an eleven-year debate at the end of
>which we'd have an encyclopedia to our joint credit, and absolutely no
>friends left, either one of us.

Wellllllll.....that's different. :) Thank goodness none of my friends are on
this List!

Skill hierarchies are different - but even there, how quickly the waters could
muddy...as we start to declare fuzzy traits "skills" --

>Walter and I will be co-hosts, because it's his list and my game.

>> You can't say Walter is one of us - and then have him assuming
>> all these authoritative roles.

>I hope we'll all bring whatever strengths we have, and hold ourselves
>accountable for our own weaknesses.  I don't see him "assuming all these
>authoritative roles" -- in fact I see me doing most of that, because the
>games are my games, and Walter being an insightful "one of us" who happens
>to be the one who handles technical list matters, non-viable addresses and
>bounced posts, co-signing the invitation, that sort of thing.  Beyond that,
>it's all a matter of individual strengths and weaknesses as I see it.  But
>see also the Q&A re surprises at the end of this post...

As long as he's just handling "technical" stuff...I am not ordinarily this
bloody
petulant and difficult (yes - I do realize it - but my experience on this
list has
been not fair...as I see it.)

>> I assume yo will be equally courteous to all of us...?

>Yo, I will <grin>.  Legal small print: to the best of my abilities.

That's all we can ask...:)

>> I want to take the test...how can I do so?
>
>There's a version of the Myers-Briggs on the web at
>
>     http://www.keirsey.com/cgi-bin/keirsey/newkts.cgi
>
>I turn out to be what Kiersey, the author of this particular test, calls an
>"INFP" or "healer", but am only a shade away from being an "INTP" or
>"designer".  On the cusp, as you'd say.  And not too far from "INFJ" and
>"INTJ" either ("counselor" and "mastermind" respectively).

How do you know what I'd say? - do you know some astrology? :)

>More in a separate post.
>
>> Do you realize that that's twice you've spoken of loving the game
>> - without loving us? :)
>
>Absolutely.  I've lived with the game for three years... <grin>

>More seriously, I'll almost never say that I love someone in response to
>their saying it to me, or in response to their *asking* me: I reserve it
>for those times it comes up naturally in myself, without any prompting.
>That's a bit of an exaggeration, though, because I will anyway if the tone
>is right, or if my own love for them is already well enough established not
>to be in any question: but fundamentally I value the word too highly to use
>it much "just to get by"...  and when I do use it, you'll know I mean it.

Oh bah humbug. I can tell you're a "thing" lover - :)

(But you really don't have to get so intense and serious about this - I
wasn't really proposing a relationship of great depth and commitment
here - except in a broadly humanitarian way...:)

>I don't yet love the sixteen people who will comprise our games -- but if
>the Dream Event is anything to go by, I am liable to love each one of you

<laugh> Well...if that happens, we'll just have to find a way to feed that
back to the whole list....????

>by the time we're through.
>

><aside>
>
>Did you know that the question Jesus asks, "Simon son of Jonas, lovest thou
>me?" in the gospels, to which Simon Peter three times replies "Yea, Lord,
>thou knowest that I love thee" in the English translation, reads *very*
>differently in the Greek?
>
>Jesus asks "do you love me?" three times, and the first two times Peter
>answers with a different word ("you know I'm fond of you" would be a rough
>English equivalent), and the third time it's as though Peter gives in and
>says "you know I love you" -- almost as if he'd sighed and said "oh,
>alright, have it your way" under his breath first.  Very funny in the
>Greek, and all too human.  Point completely lost in English, particularly
>in the drone most preachers use reading the text out loud.

Hmmmm...interesting. Even Jesus was a bit of a withholder, huh?
Had to be pushed to grant Peter that he loved him?

Human, all too human...

></aside>
>
>I wrote:
>
>>And if at the end you wanna play a round with you and Walter as
>>"principals" <grin>...
>
>And you replied:
>
>> Now THAT sounds interesting. :) I would like that.
>
>LOL.  Wait and see... the one thing I can predict is that there will be
>many surprises.
>
>> Why, thank you, kind Sir.
>
>My pleasure, m'Lady.

Well...I am amazed that people are willing to put time into this. Who are our
16 now?

We're on our way...:)

Fondly (only....:)

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:19:22 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      very close to the counsels
In-Reply-To:  <l03130301b1a71063cafd@[38.29.10.155]>
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Charles writes,

"The Gandhis and Trevor Huddleston's of this world bring us all great gifts
by living lives which come very close to the counsels of perfection: but
"premature perfectionism" can be a devastating business -- the "revenge of
the repressed" is not a pretty sight in those who aspire to high ideals
while ignoring their own shadows, depths, abysses."

When I review the events of my own life, (a life of no great
accomplishment, worldly or otherwise,) I do come to recognize its key
points are people. And, what resonates for me Charles, are the various
'counsels' brought to me in these crossings of my own path, almost as if
one way to look at a life is by seeing who it who makes up the Counsel or
the miraculous (to me,) interplay of wisdom and teaching and learning which
is the individual, encountered.

*Counsels of perfection* seem unrealizable but such counselors have their
effect. Yet, as if drawing circles so that each one must overlap all the
others in some way, I note the shared ground persons encountered is a
certain *nobility*. this is no less than the conclusive-in-the-moment
contribution other people may make our becoming, into us, as-it-were.

Sometimes it is the smallest thing too; I've had occasions in which it has
been a glancing look.

***

It is because of this experience of other people that I cannot easily see
the system as a balance between good and evil, even if the balance is
dynamical for which the better goods are offset by the worser bads.

Others might not have had my experience, and it may be counterindicated,
but, the fact of my own life remains: I have encountered not much real evil
and been encountered by huge goodness. Each person so encountered
instantiating goodness, nobility and their necessary counsel. (Needless to
say, not always a counsel I grokked or was ready to be receptive to.)

***

This is, perhaps, another take on the Glass Bead game, forthe depth of the
game concerns not only the connections of ideas and feelings but the
intimation of even deeper connections which give the players a direct sip
of each other's goodness and nobility; the *miraculous* counsel of self
encountering self...

***

best regards,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:22:12 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: A question...
In-Reply-To:  <19980613190150.XZD21728@default>
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>My question:
>
>How many people on this list have children?
>
>Julienne

Why do you ask?

Are you already aware of people on this list who have *none*?

***

(...let's see, where did I put that...

agenda?)

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:04:50 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980612172227.010ec5f0@postoffice.att.net>
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:24:19
-0400 you wrote:

>At 07:19 PM 6/12/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 01:53:10 -0400, you, Julienne
>><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>>
>>>>>JoAnne - the truth crusade is yours - not mine. Can you work on it
>>>>>without me? Can you work on it without mentioning my name?
>>>
>>>Why me? And why, even when others point out to you that I
>>>haven't been untruthful, do you still insist on it , even in face of
>evidence
>>>to the contrary?
>>
>>Not everyone agrees with you.  There are some who agreed, and still
>>agree, with me.  So if we're just going to take a vote, it wouldn't be
>>a landslide in your favor.
>
>Hi JoAnne,
>
>I'm not talking about philosophical disagreements, but the specifics
>where you accused me of being dishonest. Can you think of one where
>I was actually found not to tell the truth?

If you mean, found in a court of law, I can't help you there.  If you don't
believe anything I say, I can't help you.

But I did this before, twice, and here is the primary and earliest example,
about the way your email list, ChaoS, works:

>>This doesn't mean we all agree with each
>>other! On the contrary, there are very animated disagreements. We just
>>don't attack each other personally.

And yet you and Kris say I attacked you personally on that list, way before
you made this statement, and when you made the statement you had just
gotten over a person making some very nasty personal attacks like calling
someone a faggot, and since then other "personal attacks" have occurred on
ChaoS according to you and Kris, by people other than me.

So.  How can both statements possibly be true?  They can't.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:21:54 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: dining out, communion

On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:25:24 +1200, Miles Thompson  wrote:

>Anita,
>
>At 01:31 13/06/98 +0300, you wrote:
A:>>The Axe murderer image is a picture of energy in me that projects out from
>>me onto  - let's say - JoAnne and gets her to attack. I'm  not a victim. On
>>the inner level I'm  an axe murderer, a rapist and a child molester. Tvat
>>tvam asi.
>
M:>I am really curious about this 'tvat tvam asi' thing... can you tell
>us more about it?

N:  I too paused and wondered.  Typo? Correctly what?  Finnish?  Nor Swedish, ..?  Don't think so. ...other language?  Classical?  Bookshelf and own knowledge of greek and latin so far sheds no light.

M:>Is it some baltic epithet to the effect that "on an inner level
>we are all muderers, rapists and child molestors" ?? I should
>think not..
>
>Actually, its interesting ... just now I think
>it would suprise me if it did have such a meaning.
>In a way I would think that such an idea, such a 'pattern' of thought,
>would be a particularly modern type of thought.

N: Finnish and Swedish are modern languages...yet I am unaware of this inner/outer concept taking much hold in either country to date.
>
M:>So quick, put me out of my misery before I start attacking
>any more innocent trees with my barking.  Or something .
>
>
>---------------_---------
>           o  | |
> _  _  _      | |  _   ,
>/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
>  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
>
>          ( miles )
N:>  Ah, the Tasty One 'speaks'.  Today I sense his flavor as a 'mouth full' from
 a roll of pizza dough.  Perhaps Anita will roll, shape, top and bake his offering
for the group.
  Miles, my black lab Bear sends regards.  As do I.
         Nancy
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:01:41 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: the time it takes -- was Re: [P] GBG: One last tiny question,
              Charles

On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:35:46 -0700, after the lst AND  Charles Cameron quoted::

 Nancy saying (right NOW)   I seem to need a little figure jumping and waving saying 'me here!'
N: As I read the BELOW ( \/ ), it occurs to me that anyone who can anticipate being unable to 'attend' closely for a period exceeding 3 days any time during the coming 3 1/2 months might chose to stay in the audience rather than participating.  Does that fit the 'constraints' in your thinking?
  Thanks for reaffirming my faith in 'goodness' of our (exactly) shared typology,
          Nancy (not so presumpuous in this moment, I hope)

             AND then

>Nancy asks:
>
>> What is the approximate time frame for ...one game (?)
>> I think we all need to know what we are promising in terms of
>> commitment.
>> If you've already covered this, I missed it.
>           AND then
C: >   Good question, to which the answer was (a) buried in a previous long post
>and (b) perhgaps a little optimistic on one or two points.  Here's my
>current (adjusted) thinking.
>
>  Summing all that up, a cycle would be about 3 months, with a 2 week rest
>period towards the end.  The game itself would take a month, with moves
>every three days -- roughly one move a week for each player in a two-person
>game.
>
>  It definitely is a commitment, though -- and in my experience, both worth
>it, and the richer for it.
>
>          Best wishes,
>--
>              Charles
              >Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:22:27 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: A question...OH....dancing with 'grins'?

grin    grin     grin

            g
   g    g   g   g
          g
      g      g
       g         g

                          *G*
                                      nancy (wishing keyboard had a 'note' key)  GG  LOL

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:51:08 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: A question...OH....dancing with 'grins'?
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998061413232345@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>grin    grin     grin
>
>            g
>   g    g   g   g
>          g
>      g      g
>       g         g
>
>                          *G*
>                                      nancy (wishing keyboard had a 'note'
>key)  GG  LOL

Ooooh. How about all the notes? Seems to me your posts always dance.

***

thanks, regards,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:43:24 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: "Tat Tvam Asi" was Re: [P] Ad(d) context

Then, Charles, might your very erudite amplification be applied to Anita's placement of the phrase ( reduced by me in e e cumming case) be something like this:
      "go with Ggod"
                 ?
            Nnancy  (moot in the eye of...)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:24:54 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: A question...OH...Oh! .dancing

On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:51:08 -0500, sc  wrote:

 Seems to me your posts always dance.

N:     S
        /\
>
>  Your gracious words are welcomed with thanks.
   From my brief visit to HoonWorld (I will go again when Sself premit I may grog more)  I learned that you would be far abler that I to use a full keyboard of notes.
  I will stick to what harmony of of word and soul/spirit I can now command.
       Regarding you gravely,    Nancy
>

>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:53:37 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: updating our sense of the game proposal
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne, you write:

> Skill hierarchies are different - but even there, how quickly the
> waters could muddy... as we start to declare fuzzy traits "skills"

Agreed.

> As long as he's just handling "technical" stuff...I am not
> ordinarily this bloody petulant and difficult (yes - I do realize it -
> but my experience on this list has been not fair...as I see it.)

Seems to me it's quite possible you got into a petulance-framed "are / am
not / are / am not" eddy here on the list early on -- and such things can
easily become whirlpools.

Whirlpools "too shall pass" as the saying goes, and I'm glad to say that
recent posts suggest this one may be "tailing down" or whatever it is they
do.

> How do you know what I'd say? - do you know some astrology?

Precious little -- but I'm either triple Sag or double Sag cusp Scorpio,
and vain enough to find out what "cusp" means.  Neat word, too, and as you
observe, I like words.

> Oh bah humbug. I can tell you're a "thing" lover

Thing lover, word lover, idea lover, people lover, love lover...  snob,
hermit, frantic father of small son (to answer a different post)...

> But you really don't have to get so intense and serious about this

Oh Julienne, I never have to *get* serious, I already am <grin>.  It's
getting light that's the trick, which may be why I've wound up designing
games...

> I wasn't really proposing a relationship of great depth and
> commitment here - except in a broadly humanitarian way...:)

Broadly humanitarian suits...

> Even Jesus was a bit of a withholder, huh? Had to be pushed to
> grant Peter that he loved him?

Other way around.  Peter had to be pushed to admit he loved Jesus...

> Well...I am amazed that people are willing to put time into this.
> Who are our 16 now?

There are about four people besides yourself and JoAnne who have expressed
a wish to join, but the invite hasn't gone out yet <grin>.  By my count,
Barry, Dolores, Hoon, Nancy...

> We're on our way...:)

Wheeee...

> Fondly (only....:)

LOL.  Fondly (only) it is.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:53:43 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: "non-principal" activities was Re: [P] the time it takes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Simon writes:

> I'm still unclear as to what is actually expected of the non-
> principals, other than having some general notion about
> commenting on the moves made by the principals. To what
> extent, if any, is the posting of non-principals formalised beyond
> this particular general requirement?

The non-principals will also be playing the games, the idea being that they
can perhaps represent [for instance] patterns they see emerging in the
principals' game and insights arising from the game process in their own
moves.  However, the non-principal games will not have the same constraints
on when moves can be made, and may in fact be played on one or more
different boards, some of them small enough to carry "two move" solo games,
some of them open ended, whatever.

I'll get into the details of all this once the group is constituted and
subbed, and both principals and non-principals will have a warm up round
during the "intro and prep" stage to see how the games work.

Hope this is clear enough.




--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:35:57 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: the time it takes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi, Nancy:

Nancy writes --

> it occurs to me that anyone who can anticipate being unable to
> 'attend' closely for a period exceeding 3 days any time during the
> coming 3 1/2 months might chose to stay in the audience rather
> than participating.  Does that fit the 'constraints' in your
> thinking?

Hmmmm.  My initial hunch is that having non-participant observers who might
or might not be following the posts so closely would not sit well with the
active participants and particularly the principals.  I'd suggest that any
of the participants may find themselves taking a three day breather from
time to time -- or off to a week long conference and unable to post for a
while.  I'll need to write something into the preliminary matter which
specifies that in such cases, no one will be offended, but the participant
in question should set aside time on their return to catch up with the
intervening posts, and join back in smoothly.

If we get positively deluged, I'll have some techniques for posting "up to
daters" within the list, so that if people at least read those they can be
reasonably up to speed, and catch up with the details later.  And moves in
the principals game will carry a specific tag, so keeping up with that --
which will only involve one post every three days -- should be pretty easy.

Hope that helps.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:36:36 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: "Tat Tvam Asi"
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy writes:

> Then, Charles, might your very erudite amplification be applied
> to Anita's placement of the phrase ( reduced by me in e e
> cumming case) be something like this:

>       "go with Ggod"
>                 ?

I suspect Anita's introspective (novelist's) nature has revealed to her
that we all carry the germs of the lives of others within us, and that
she's thinking "that too, I could be" -- not meaning "I'm an axe murderer
still in search of my axe and opportunity" so much as "I've glimpsed my own
capacity for murderous hate" and perhaps "better to acknowledge that than
to attempt to forget it", and maybe "that allows me some insight into the
condition of others" and no doubt "it's within me to write that character"
and probably "can't help feeling some compassion for those who are driven
to such lengths" (see my earlier post on the "judicial" and "therapeutic"
views of a multiple murderer being possible and even appropriate in the
same person on occasion, and Tom Harris' book *Red Dragon*) and "thank god
/ pray god I never find myself pushed that far" and a whole host of other
such things.

But that's just me, what I'd mean if I said it in a similar context.

From my own POV, the "this too is within me" insight -- as applied to the
fiercest of humans' behaviors and underlying motives -- is, like the
"empathize while judging" paradox applied to the same behaviors, a
difficult yet desirable balance for some humans to attain -- but may make
*no sense at all* to others, who perhaps have no need of it.

But if I go into this business at any greater length, I'll be on the topic
of Upanishadic vs Shakespearean spiritualities, the purities of detachment
vs riches of the "Homo sum: humani a me nihil alienum puto" variety...
Terence, I believe, meaning "I am a man: nothing human do I consider alien
to myself".

But you, Nancy, know latin -- so that last bit is for those who don't.

Best wishes,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:23:46 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Moonasylum <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: updating our sense of the game proposal
In-Reply-To:  <l03130301b1a9c62fbd2d@[38.29.10.84]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Charles,

It is so good to read you here again!

I have been reading all the posts since my return home - every word,
sequentially, which is my way - and feeling ... saturated!  Also dealing
with re-entry shock, and fatigue - and I think I am actually sick, or else
in a serious stress overload situation (probably long overdue) - so I have
not written here, altho I have wanted to respond to each and all.  I am
here, and listening, and caring.

Julienne:
>> Well...I am amazed that people are willing to put time into this.
>> Who are our 16 now?

Charles:
>There are about four people besides yourself and JoAnne who have expressed
>a wish to join, but the invite hasn't gone out yet <grin>.  By my count,
>Barry, Dolores, Hoon, Nancy...
>
>> We're on our way...:)

I am most interested in taking this journey, too.

Marie

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:38:20 EDT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         John Gerhart <JGerh50699@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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In a message dated 98-06-11 14:58:43 EDT, Joanne write:

<< t is turned around, and it's not what I said.

 Life is extremely complex.  Logic is an abstraction or rule about some
 physical things.  When you look at the physical things more closely
 you realise there is more complexity and therefore you make your logic
 more complex.  Hence bivalent formal predicate logic births statistics
 and fuzzy logic.
  >>

Is life really complex?  Or do our logic and rules cloud life and make it
appear more complex and cause us to get metally lost in fuzzy thinking?  And
the only way to justify our (I include myself and the entire human race) fuzzy
thinking and logic is say life is complex?

Just Wondering?

John Gerhart

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:49:43 EDT
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Subject:      Re: Truth
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Joanne and HooN

Have enjoyed your discussion immensely!  My question:  Do we live indifferent
realities or is it just our perception of reality that differs?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Jun 1998 09:02:22 +1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: dining out, communion
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998061412221712@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi all,

Cross-threading here, but Charles, thanks for the
explanation / exposition on the subject of Atman and Tat Tvam Asi
Very inspirational, I am still working on understanding and
incorporating these words of yours.

At 12:21 14/06/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
> Ah, the Tasty One 'speaks'.  Today I sense his flavor as a 'mouth full' from
> a roll of pizza dough.  Perhaps Anita will roll, shape, top and bake his
offering
> for the group.
>  Miles, my black lab Bear sends regards.  As do I.
>         Nancy

With what schoolboy latin I can bring to bear, the
following variation on the theme...

Pizza est in Miles, et Bear.

(The pizza is in Miles as it is in Bear. )





or at least that was the intention.




---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
-------------------------
   miles@mail.com
   http://www.webolution.com.au/miles
-------------------------

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:09:09 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: dining out, communion.Pizzaria!

On Sat, 6 Jun 1998 09:02:22 +1200, Miles Thompson  wrote:

>Hi all,
>
.... Charles, thanks for ... Atman ... I am still... understanding ...
>
>At 12:21 14/06/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>> Ah, the Tasty One 'speaks'.  Today I sense his flavor as a 'mouth full' from
>> a roll of pizza dough.  Perhaps Anita will roll, shape, top and bake his
>offering
>> for the group.
>>  Miles, my black lab Bear sends regards.  As do I.
>>         Nancy
>
>With what schoolboy latin I can bring to bear, the
>following variation on the theme...
-----
N:  Don't be led astray by Charles assuption that I 'know latin'.  It might be that the 'knowing' authority figures are strong in his psyche.
__
>
>Pizza est in Miles, et Bear.
>
>(The pizza is in Miles as it is in Bear. )
----
N: Bear says that if you will cough yours up he will eat it too.  Since I know that you will not agree, I need not turn aside so as not to watch!
    Bear, Have a little regard for our human sensibilities when you speak.  Please.
        Nnancy

>
>
>
>
>
>or at least that was the intention.
>
>
>
>
>---------------_---------
>           o  | |
> _  _  _      | |  _   ,
>/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
>  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
>-------------------------
>   miles@mail.com
>   http://www.webolution.com.au/miles
>-------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:52:37 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         John Gerhart <JGerh50699@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: A question...
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In a message dated 98-06-13 16:56:29 EDT, Julienne write:

<< How many people on this list have children? >>

I have a daughter, but she may belong to someone else!  She doesn't look like
my wife or me!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:47:47 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
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At 04:04 PM 6/14/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:

>>>Not everyone agrees with you.  There are some who agreed, and still
>>>agree, with me.  So if we're just going to take a vote, it wouldn't be
>>>a landslide in your favor.
>>
>>Hi JoAnne,

>>I'm not talking about philosophical disagreements, but the specifics
>>where you accused me of being dishonest. Can you think of one where
>>I was actually found not to tell the truth?
>
>If you mean, found in a court of law, I can't help you there.  If you don't
>believe anything I say, I can't help you.

Of course I'm not talking about a court of law. Do you really feel
there is anything you can accuse me of which would belong for
2 seconds in a court of law? This is how you exaggerate and
hint darkly at there being so much more than there is in
situations, JoAnne, and it causes people a lot of angst when
you do it. That's what I received most of the e-mail about last
time you were on the list - people were starting to not post
because they felt that what they said was escalated by you
beyond recognition, and in contradiction, of what they had
originally said.

Jo>But I did this before, twice, and here is the primary and earliest example,
>about the way your email list, ChaoS, works:
>
Ju>>>This doesn't mean we all agree with each
>>>other! On the contrary, there are very animated disagreements. We just
>>>don't attack each other personally.
>
Jo>And yet you and Kris say I attacked you personally on that list, way before
>you made this statement, and when you made the statement you had just
>gotten over a person making some very nasty personal attacks like calling
>someone a faggot, and since then other "personal attacks" have occurred on
>ChaoS according to you and Kris, by people other than me.

>So.  How can both statements possibly be true?  They can't.

Geez. The person who came on the list and called someone a
"faggot" was not a regular list member - but someone who came on
briefly, spouted pretty nastily - and then left quickly, after apologizing,
going on to another list where she did something similar and caused
a furor on that other list. I also mentioned that episode previously on
this list.

When did Kris and I say other personal attacks had occurred on
CHA*OS besides yours?

BTW - the person talking about "faggots" was not making a
personal attack on anyone on the list, as I recall - but just
swearing about faggots.

To use yourself as the example of personal attacks on
CHA*OS is sort of disingenuous, JoAnne, isn't it?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 00:55:11 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psychological Explorations
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:17:11
-0400 you wrote:

>My list has two rules (despite JoAnne's statement that we have none) -
>and one of them is "no ad hominem attacks".  The problem I have
>found with this that there has been the occasional person (actually
>only 0ne - JoAnne) who claims not to know what that means. So - I
>would suggest explaining what it means - and that the explanation
>should be a good page long, with at least 7 examples. :)

I know what ad hominem really means -- attack on the person instead of the
idea.  But how it's used on your list is a whole nother kettle of fish, and
I couldn't understand or maybe wouldn't understand, because it just felt
wrong.

>And as for the toilet - the only time things went down the toilet was
>when JoAnne steadfastly refused recently to honour the no ad hom
>attacks rule - insisting that calling someone names and questioning
>their motives was not an ad hominem attack. (Don't get upset, JoAnne -
>this is not to stir things up again - just to deal with Walter's thoughts.)

I'm not upset, but I don't think questioning of motives is ad hominem.
Don't you question my motives?  When did I call someone a name and insist
it was not ad hominem?  Specifically, succinctly, Julienne.

The toilets I was referring to were in other places, anyway; past
experience, not specifically ChaoS.

>One of the angry men went over to JoAnne's list.

More than one, but you wouldn't necessarily know that.  Does this upset
you, or are you happy they're where they are now?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 00:55:13 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: left and right brain
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 13 Jun 1998 16:36:19
-0400 you wrote:

>JoAnne,
>
>At 07:19 PM 6/12/98 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>Judith was saying that the way to engage split brains is not to try to
>>mix the two in parallel (at the same time) but to engage first one,
>>and then the other.  I'm not against using both sides, just saying
>>that I don't do well with both sides engaged at the same time.
>
>Well, in truth, they are ALWAYS engaged together - it's just a
>neuropsychological thing. We can't, without surgery or something,
>separate them. However, if  our childhood programming teaches
>us to undervalue one, or our natural character favours one at
>the expense of the other, then there will be a situation such
>as yours - where information from one side of the brain is
>ignored, perhaps.

This sounds like a diagnosis.  I don't know that this has to be true,
Julienne.  I don't mean that someone must be 100 percent left or right
brained at any one time, but to let one work, and then the other, is the
model of a good argument.  Appeal to logic, appeal to what's right.  If it
fails either, you throw it out.  That eliminates both the heartless
unacceptable schemes and the well-meaning wastes of energy.

>>>JoAnne - I see you as also being very left-brain developed.
>>>I doubt if your relationship to your right brain is purely
>>>genetic, because you are very angry or irritated at others'
>>>expressions of emotions sometimes. This would suggest
>>>to me that you were taught as a child not to honour or value
>>>that side of yourself.  You get angry, as though looking at
>>>something you've been forced to deny in yourself, while Walter
>>>just seems befuddled and wonders what is going on and
>>>seems to hope it will go away because it's confusing him.
>>>On the other hand, JoAnne, you actively attack it to chase
>>>it away, so I would imagine that as a child you found more
>>>respone to the intelligent and pushy JoAnne than to the
>>>potentially sensitive JoAnne with Pisces rising.
>>
>>That's quite true.  The sensitive JoAnne exists but she is not for
>>general consumption!
>
>But she gets angry when others express that side of themselves,
>because she perhaps resents that they allow themselves to
>express what she has had to repress.

I get angry when others express that side of themselves in order to get
pity.

><snip>
>
>>>On top of that, I had just learned a few months previously
>>>that my mother was dying, and was also experiencing a
>>>number of other emotionally devastating events in my life. You
>>>and I now had a problem - because I also have a strongly
>>>developed right brain, which I have somehow not learned to
>>>ignore, probably to my disadvantage at times, but to my advantage
>>>in others, and I am deeply emotional and nurturing and
>>>empathic. My take on all this is that you distrusted the drama
>>>of my life at the time - distrusted the depth of my feelings
>>>(probably just thought I was hysterical), and maybe didn't
>>>even believe what was going on in my life - and you and
>>>came to a clashing impasse.
>
>>I believed the facts of what you said but felt your interpretations of
>>some of the facts were extreme, and, here we go again, mixing the left
>>and right brain stuff too much; letting the right brain convince the
>>left brain of stuff that wasn't really believeable to me.  Because you
>>were under stress, I think you were overreacting to some of the other
>
>>things that were happening.
>
>Do you still believe this? What ended up happening was even more
>extreme than I envisioned when you and I first started the list. How
>does one "over-react" to what I was going through?

You overreacted to things that were not big.

Before you explode, I'm not talking about your parents and their illnesses
and deaths, and the other things that were true horrors.  I'm talking about
little things that happened at the same time, that you blew into big
things.  Like when someone might say something on the list you thought
might cause a problem.  Like the post office incident.

>What if you had
>been a therapist, and I had come to you for counseling? Would you
>have just told me I was overreacting?

I'm not a therapist.  I don't want to be a therapist.  But I suppose I
would have told you that your reaction to little thing x was out of
proportion, and based on your real feelings about big things X Y and Z.
And not to "kick the cat" as the saying goes.

>I think the only way I got through
>(and it's not through yet) was because I had been doing this work
>myself for years, and guiding others through it. I put into effect
>everything I could think of to get through. And I haven't told you
>or the list all the events - like the 17 times the police came to the
>house, the 7 times in court ( there was never a judgement
>against me) and so much more. My mother refused to see me
>the last 4 months of her life, and disinherited me a few weeks
>before she died.  So much more - but I really don't want to have
>to giving details to have to "prove" that what I was going through
>was unbearable.

You did tell me about some of those things, and I think ChaoS.

I never said what you went through was good or fun or wonderful.  But what
I saw was that you reacted to other things in your life as if they were the
source of your pain.

This, by the way, is one of the reasons I find putting people in grief in
the middle of the street to be bad for everyone.  Your pain makes you angry
at people who do you no harm.

>>>Thinking I was just being overly-sensitive and unreasonable
>>> - you took off very quickly without a word - after we had only had
>>>the list together for 3 weeks. You had attacked me on the list
>>>- and when called on it by others, you protested that this was
>>>just an intellectual discussion - and so what was the problem?
>>>You thought we were just pitting our brains against each other,
>>>and yet I felt very hurt and already vulnerable and as though you
>>>were attacking me. We were playing different games, with different
>>>rules. I saw you as the cruel bitch from hell, and you saw me as the
>>>drama queen faking emotions.
>>>
>>>Does this have any resonance for you?
>
>>Yes, quite a bit.  I still cringe at the word "attacked" but later in
>>the paragraph you seem to say that is your perception, and not my
>>intention.
>
>Well...let's say that is true, and it wasn't your intention. When others
>called it to your attention, why didn't you stop, or at least talk to me
>about it?

You were just as adamant that I must stop arguing in a detached manner, as
I was that you get your feelings out of the arguments.  Neither of us was
"right" but our actions were just completely incompatible.

I mean, when I called it to your attention that you were taking things
personally and didn't need to, you didn't stop, or at least talk to me
about it.  You just told me I was vicious.

>>>Now - this is far too long - and maybe everyone's sick
>>>of this stuff - and this is very superficial and incomplete -
>>>but what the hell. It's helping me to make sense of it all.
>>
>>It's helping me, too.
>>
>> >Thanks, I think this was very productive.
>
>Well...do you see it works better when I speak to your left brain?
>
>How would it feel to you to speak to my right brain?

I'm hesitant to even try to speak to your right brain.  It hates me and
won't listen to me.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:04:52 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: left and right brain
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At 12:55 AM 6/15/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:

>>>Judith was saying that the way to engage split brains is not to try to
>>>mix the two in parallel (at the same time) but to engage first one,
>>>and then the other.  I'm not against using both sides, just saying
>>>that I don't do well with both sides engaged at the same time.

Ju>>Well, in truth, they are ALWAYS engaged together - it's just a
>>neuropsychological thing. We can't, without surgery or something,
>>separate them. However, if  our childhood programming teaches
>>us to undervalue one, or our natural character favours one at
>>the expense of the other, then there will be a situation such
>>as yours - where information from one side of the brain is
>>ignored, perhaps.

Ko>This sounds like a diagnosis.  I don't know that this has to be true,
>Julienne.  I don't mean that someone must be 100 percent left or right
>brained at any one time, but to let one work, and then the other, is the
>model of a good argument.  Appeal to logic, appeal to what's right.  If it
>fails either, you throw it out.  That eliminates both the heartless
>unacceptable schemes and the well-meaning wastes of energy.

This may sound logical, JoAnne - but it's based on a false premise -
and it's not sound neuroscience. You've also confabulated logic,
and "what's right." Logical conclusions, and ethical conclusions.
What we throw out, or ignore, is not nearly as objective a process
as you suggest.

>>>>JoAnne - I see you as also being very left-brain developed.
>>>>I doubt if your relationship to your right brain is purely
>>>>genetic, because you are very angry or irritated at others'
>>>>expressions of emotions sometimes. This would suggest
>>>>to me that you were taught as a child not to honour or value
>>>>that side of yourself.  You get angry, as though looking at
>>>>something you've been forced to deny in yourself, while Walter
>>>>just seems befuddled and wonders what is going on and
>>>>seems to hope it will go away because it's confusing him.
>>>>On the other hand, JoAnne, you actively attack it to chase
>>>>it away, so I would imagine that as a child you found more
>>>>response to the intelligent and pushy JoAnne than to the
>>>>potentially sensitive JoAnne with Pisces rising.
>>>
Jo>>>That's quite true.  The sensitive JoAnne exists but she is not for
>>>general consumption!
>>
Ju>>But she gets angry when others express that side of themselves,
>>because she perhaps resents that they allow themselves to
>>express what she has had to repress.

>I get angry when others express that side of themselves in order to get
>pity.

So many questions:
1) How do you know that's why they express that side of themselves.
2) Why would you assume that's why they express that side of
themselves - and do you think that is the only reason people express
emotions?
3) If others express their emotions to elicit "pity" as you refer to it
harshly, why would that make you angry?
4) What side of your brain is responding at that time?

>><snip>

>>>>On top of that, I had just learned a few months previously
>>>>that my mother was dying, and was also experiencing a
>>>>number of other emotionally devastating events in my life. You
>>>>and I now had a problem - because I also have a strongly
>>>>developed right brain, which I have somehow not learned to
>>>>ignore, probably to my disadvantage at times, but to my advantage
>>>>in others, and I am deeply emotional and nurturing and
>>>>empathic. My take on all this is that you distrusted the drama
>>>>of my life at the time - distrusted the depth of my feelings
>>>>(probably just thought I was hysterical), and maybe didn't
>>>>even believe what was going on in my life - and you and

>>>>came to a clashing impasse.

Jo>>>I believed the facts of what you said but felt your interpretations of
>>>some of the facts were extreme, and, here we go again, mixing the left
>>>and right brain stuff too much; letting the right brain convince the
>>>left brain of stuff that wasn't really believeable to me.  Because you
>>>were under stress, I think you were overreacting to some of the other
>>>things that were happening.

Ju>>Do you still believe this? What ended up happening was even more
>>extreme than I envisioned when you and I first started the list. How
>>does one "over-react" to what I was going through?

Jo>You overreacted to things that were not big.

Jo>Before you explode, I'm not talking about your parents and their illnesses
>and deaths, and the other things that were true horrors.  I'm talking about
>little things that happened at the same time, that you blew into big
>things.  Like when someone might say something on the list you thought
>might cause a problem.  Like the post office incident.

Geez JoAnne. That was not on my list - it  was on another list where people
were talking about suing each other, and you made a big thing about
following up off list to see who was telling the truth - and then came back to
the list with your unasked-for report. I objected to your investigating
people's
lives off list. Do you have the date of that event?

Furthermore, that incident did not happen at the same time - but much, much,
later.

Further, you accused me of exaggerating way before that incident.

You seem to be muddling a lot of things together.


So, as those events were not involved, we're back to my question again:
what did you think I was exaggerating? If you felt I was exaggerating
when you were on CHA*OS, then it has to be about events happening to
me then - not events happening much later.  Just trying to be logical
and factual and truthful, don't you know? :)

>>What if you had been a therapist, and I had come to you for
>> counseling? Would you have just told me I was overreacting?

Jo>I'm not a therapist.  I don't want to be a therapist.  But I suppose I
>would have told you that your reaction to little thing x was out of
>proportion, and based on your real feelings about big things X Y and Z.
>And not to "kick the cat" as the saying goes.

Well, what you told me is about the opposite of what I was told. If
you had negated the reality of my experience in such a way it would
have been much harder for me to make it through whole.

>>I think the only way I got through
>>(and it's not through yet) was because I had been doing this work
>>myself for years, and guiding others through it. I put into effect
>>everything I could think of to get through. And I haven't told you
>>or the list all the events - like the 17 times the police came to the
>>house, the 7 times in court ( there was never a judgement
>>against me) and so much more. My mother refused to see me
>>the last 4 months of her life, and disinherited me a few weeks
>>before she died.  So much more - but I really don't want to have
>>to giving details to have to "prove" that what I was going through
>>was unbearable.

>You did tell me about some of those things, and I think ChaoS.

No I didn't - because it didn't happen when you were on the list -
only about a year and a half later.

Jo>I never said what you went through was good or fun or wonderful.  But what
>I saw was that you reacted to other things in your life as if they were the
>source of your pain.

And what would you suggest was the source?

Jo>This, by the way, is one of the reasons I find putting people in grief in
>the middle of the street to be bad for everyone.  Your pain makes you angry
>at people who do you no harm.

Which people was I angry at who did me no harm? At the time you left the list
the big events and deaths in my family had not yet occurred.


>>>>Thinking I was just being overly-sensitive and unreasonable
>>>> - you took off very quickly without a word - after we had only had
>>>>the list together for 3 weeks. You had attacked me on the list
>>>>- and when called on it by others, you protested that this was
>>>>just an intellectual discussion - and so what was the problem?
>>>>You thought we were just pitting our brains against each other,
>>>>and yet I felt very hurt and already vulnerable and as though you
>>>>were attacking me. We were playing different games, with different
>>>>rules. I saw you as the cruel bitch from hell, and you saw me as the
>>>>drama queen faking emotions.


>>>>Does this have any resonance for you?

>>>Yes, quite a bit.  I still cringe at the word "attacked" but later in
>>>the paragraph you seem to say that is your perception, and not my
>>>intention.

Actually, it was Kris's perception.

Ju>>Well...let's say that is true, and it wasn't your intention. When others
>>called it to your attention, why didn't you stop, or at least talk to me
>>about it?

Jo>You were just as adamant that I must stop arguing in a detached manner, as
>I was that you get your feelings out of the arguments.  Neither of us was
>"right" but our actions were just completely incompatible.

Actually, I only tried to discuss with you on the List. It was Kris who
recognized
that there was little about your manner that was detached, and called you
on it.
And our discussion was absolutely not about feelings or detachment.

Jo>I mean, when I called it to your attention that you were taking things
>personally and didn't need to, you didn't stop, or at least talk to me
>about it.  You just told me I was vicious.

Do you have any post where I called you "vicious"?

Jo>>> >Thanks, I think this was very productive.

>>Well...do you see it works better when I speak to your left brain?

>>How would it feel to you to speak to my right brain?

Jo>I'm hesitant to even try to speak to your right brain.  It hates me and
>won't listen to me.

That's a copout...

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:26:57 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psychological Explorations
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At 12:55 AM 6/15/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 13 Jun 1998 14:17:11
>-0400 you wrote:
>
>>My list has two rules (despite JoAnne's statement that we have none) -
>>and one of them is "no ad hominem attacks".  The problem I have
>>found with this that there has been the occasional person (actually
>>only 0ne - JoAnne) who claims not to know what that means. So - I
>>would suggest explaining what it means - and that the explanation
>>should be a good page long, with at least 7 examples. :)
>
>I know what ad hominem really means -- attack on the person instead of the
>idea.  But how it's used on your list is a whole nother kettle of fish, and
>I couldn't understand or maybe wouldn't understand, because it just felt
>wrong.

JoAnne, until you came on this last time, it was hardly ever mentioned
in the previous year and a half of the list.

>>And as for the toilet - the only time things went down the toilet was
>>when JoAnne steadfastly refused recently to honour the no ad hom
>>attacks rule - insisting that calling someone names and questioning
>>their motives was not an ad hominem attack. (Don't get upset, JoAnne -
>>this is not to stir things up again - just to deal with Walter's thoughts.)

>I'm not upset, but I don't think questioning of motives is ad hominem.
>Don't you question my motives?  When did I call someone a name and insist
>it was not ad hominem?  Specifically, succinctly, Julienne.

Excuse me? We are not in the military, JoAnne - don't ask me to jump
to your specific orders. Go back and reread your posts, JoAnne. I am not
going to take the time to do it.

>>One of the angry men went over to JoAnne's list.

>More than one, but you wouldn't necessarily know that.  Does this upset
>you, or are you happy they're where they are now?

There were only 3 angry men that I knew of. One of those is on your list,
one is
one is still on CHA*OS, and I have no idea where the third is.

Neither upset nor happy JoAnne - just glad that CHA*OS is not having to
interrupt good discussions to deal with the type of hostility which made so
many leave, or threaten to, when you were last on.

Julienne

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Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:22:49 +1200
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From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Welcome Back
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Hi Marie

Welcome back.  That's all !  TTFN

Barry
____________________________________
Barry Kennedy<kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:01:21 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: the time it takes
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Charles you wrote:

> I'd suggest that any
> of the participants may find themselves taking a three day breather from
> time to time -- or off to a week long conference and unable to post for a
> while.  I'll need to write something into the preliminary matter which
> specifies that in such cases, no one will be offended, but the participant
> in question should set aside time on their return to catch up with the
> intervening posts, and join back in smoothly.

As I am doing here after being away two weeks :-)   Not easy
especially as my life is as hectic as it is here in Psyber-L on
many fronts, after the absence.  Mentioning this just so that my
relative quiet is placed in context!  I am fully involved in what
is happening here ... mostly reading with interest all the
developments.

Charles,

On timing.   I am quite willing to give your proposed framework a
go, and think i can go with it, but want to raise some thoughts
for consideration.   I have been involved in three lists that
tried to relate to "real" time, each one failed miserably, in
that regard only (!).  One of the problems with stating a fixed
time, is that if we do not stick to it we run the risk of
alienating those who took it literally.  (Actually that did
happen to me  in a book discussion that was meant to go for one
week and then went for two!)  Sticking to the time frame might
just not work, and renegotiations can then take up valuable
energy.  I know I can finish rl groups to the minute but I am not
so confident in cs.

Alternative suggestion: That we work out a suitable list of
milestones, for example:

Preparation.  Two concurrent games of 10 moves each, one for the
principals, one for the other participants.  Conclusion.  Final
writing up.

I like the idea of a 2 week pause, but again, other times I have
tried this people have wanted to keep some discussion going. We
could of course insist on a silence ... however I think that each
of us taking our rest as needed might work well in asynchronous
time.

We can keep in mind the time span you mention without being bound
by them.  I think this might enable us to be a little more
relaxed in the process and to let it have its own rhythm! How
does that sound?  As I say I am open to the real time option as
well, but would be interested on your thoughts on these matters.


Walter















__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:44:06 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: GBG: updating our sense of the game proposal
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Julienne,
in a discussion with Charles you wrote about my involvement in
the new list:

> As long as he's just handling "technical" stuff...I am not ordinarily this
> bloody petulant and difficult (yes - I do realize it - but my experience
> on this list has been not fair...as I see it.)

The role of list owner *includes* some technical appreciation of
the systems involved ... minor, once you have the basics.  The
software i am proposing for the new list is available free on the
net, and easy to use, though I have not had extensive experience
with it.  Should anything not work with it I can transpose the
whole list to an LSOFT one such as this, which requires a fee.
Apart from the fee i am keen to try the "Findlist" offering.

I don't want to disrupt our flow of enthusiasm, yet need to add
that the role of list owner includes much more than the technical
aspects.  Exactly what the role is, has been fully under
discussion here for a few years.  In a recent post ...

  Re: GBG: Walter's role
  Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:13:27 GMT

I wrote more about that.  It was Charles's suggestion that I
reply to him in that thread and that we hear from you Julienne in
a one off response in that thread ... I think that would be
useful, as I raise other aspects of list owning there.

I am writing this with a sense that we are really quite ready to
go ahead and that we might well look at remaining difficulties in
the future, here or in the other list ... I hope you have enough
trust for that despite the remaining hurts.

Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:05:42 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: The sound of Community
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Dolores
  Re: The sound of Community
  Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:49:09 +0100
you wrote:

> I'm intriqued, your writing a piece on how to avoid community?
> Why?

I was hoping for some intrigue.  There are some considerations re
community to be had. Some businesses want communities around
their product, and they want communities to sell to.  They even
wish to create communities on the net of a specific affluent
nature to increase the value of the click-throughs.  Time to be
suspicious.

There are a few other aspects ...

McLuhan spoke of the global village ... a new proximity, suddenly
we are all connected in new ways and we can relate any time.  I
think there is something to adjust to.  Sometimes we don't need
that, we need to do a specific thing, focus on the task and not
the relationships.  Intimacy might not need community either.

I recall a psychodrama conference where someone called the
gathering a "family" and there were cries of hiss and boo which
surprised me.  In that moment I understood it.  We were there for
a different reason, not to be confused with family.  That would
take it away from the purpose, or "use" ... ab use?  Family is
way more off beam than community in that case, but if I train in
a profession do I then want to be in a "community" ... perhaps,
but you can see the point.  It is over used, and can suck you
into a group-think mode that you mention.

I want to belong to a community, of course, but I think some
discrimination is called for and hence to create a community, one
also has to avoid some community when it offers ... being
splurged over a whole range of communities is not really the
thing.

~~~

Now here is the question:  Does the brief here: the experiential
exploration of the psyche in cs, presuppose that we build
community?  Or that we are creating a community through our very
activity?

Whatever the answer to the above ... and there is no clear one I
am sure, it is clear that the main focus here is *psyche* not
social or communal.

That really struck me at the conference in Harvard.  No-one
mentioned the mysterious psyche ever anywhere once.  We had the
social, economic, military, educational, cultural, aesthetic,
civic, communal, ethical, aspects mentioned but the psychological
only once in any of the sessions i went to.  Then it was to
explore the motivation of users through questionnaires, and I
don't count that.  The religious was not mentioned either.  Mind
you the conference was on the Internet and *Society*.

~~~

The other thing is that is influencing me here is that my work
day to day is with the psyche.  There I explicitly need to avoid
forming other relationships with my clients ... dual
relationships as it is called do not sit well with psychotherapy
... again an avoidance of community is required for the sake of
the psyche.

The psyche stands in bold relief when we say it is not *social*.
Psychotherapy is different from social work or relationship
counselling, or family therapy ... or any variety of problem
solving.

~~~

I have a sense of community here for all that! I have a sense of
being part of something, and I like that.  I also like,
appreciate, am fond of <grin> people here.

~~~

One of the things that might not be so clear ... it has not been
to me ... is that in the design of psybernet *psyche* and not
*community* have been the primary aim, otherwise we might have a
different list altogether.

How does all that sound?

> I can't for the life of me Walter, think why you would be writing a piece
> on avoiding-community.  It doesn't make sense to me that somebody I see as
> very firmly community orientated, is writing a piece against it..unless of
> course I'm barking up the wrong tree.

You are not barking up the wrong tree ... but i wa exaggerating
about writing a piece ... I jotted some notes in my filofax.

Walter

PS Dolores, enjoyed all the baby antics ... but i play a
reasonably fast game of scrabble!  On second thoughts I'll ask
Kate what she thinks about that.





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:36:17 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psychological Explorations
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Julienne,

you wrote:

> Walter, I didn't come on this list to do "work".  I was told this was a
>  list for listowners - and so I came on here thinking we'd just be
> exchanging ideas about running our lists. No one gave me the slightest
> clue this list was about doing psychological "work".

&

> What's the philosophy I don't wish to acknowledge?

I was thinking of the description and the welcome files that you
will have received upon subbing and which have both been posted
in the last month or so.  They are, imo, strong on broad
philosophical statements and perhaps short on rules for
behaviour.

They make it clear what the work of the list is.  Whatever you
were told is one thing, but what it is, is in those files,
although we may not always live up to it, mostly I think we do.
I also think that doing the work of the psyche is not easily
defined, and despite your wishes not to do "work" I think you
work hard ... at what is probably the psychological work.  Just
what is on topic in this regard is somewhat obscure :-)

The list is not only for list owners obviously, though it is for
those doing psychological work on the net, which would make it
relevant to some listowners ... I'd think your list would fit the
bill?


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:24:09 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Simon, Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
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"Simon
you wrote:


> Walter, this is an instance of your response feeling like lecturing to me
> (which, I know, doesn't mean it is). Here I see you isolating a particular
> sentence from its context, so changing the meaning that I gave to "there is
> no onus on them to read anything" through that context, and then responding
> to that changed meaning. Kind of ironic, because you then go on to talk
> about the value of context!

Charles has made comments on the conventions of quoting and so
on, all crucial I think.  I use "Forte Agent" and often look at
the posts by thread, ie they are all arranged so that it can be
seen who is replying to whom.  Hence the context is always the
thread for me.  Hence my attempts at educating people to thread
the posts, probably a lost cause as Outlook 98 does not support
the feature ... I am not sure about Eudora.  Agent is no longer
being supported as Forte is sold.

I think there is more involved than quoting styles and software
views, here, somehow in my wording I failed to give a signal that
this was not in anyway a disagreement,  or perhaps I sounded like
a lecturer in my wording, while not feeling like one consciously.
You go on to say in the original post and in the one I am now
responding to, things i find i am in harmony with, learning from.

I did not intend to change the meaning of your words ...

~~~

What was my intention?   Your post made me think of the idea that
some people have, and you do not, I know!  That there is no need
to resolve difficulties here as we can simply delete what we
don't want.

I thought i was adding a snippet in a bigger discussion ...

~~~

I think I do not do that well, and did not do it well with you
and will need to be more conscious of how I jump into a thread.
I need to be less cryptic perhaps ... state my intentions ...
clarify my own thoughts more in the process.

Thanks for drawing my attention to all this Simon!


Walter












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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:37:28 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: A question...
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Julienne,
A son 26
Why did you ask the question?
Judith

>My question:
>
>How many people on this list have children?
>
>Julienne
>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:58:53 -0400
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Subject:      Re: A question...
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Interesting John,
My son looks exactly like me, maybe he isn't adopted... could be I just
slept thru the nine months;-)

Enterprising he is...It was a source of income when he was in 5th
grade...seems he would bet someone in the class that he was adopted and
pocket the change...

Judith as a reflection of sunson



>In a message dated 98-06-13 16:56:29 EDT, Julienne write:
>
><< How many people on this list have children? >>
>
>I have a daughter, but she may belong to someone else!  She doesn't look like
>my wife or me!
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:08:15 -0400
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>Judith
>
>you wrote in response to Simon:
>
>> Thanks for bringing Bohm and dialogue to this space...so much good stuff
>> going on here
>
>Inspired to learn more I found this ... looks good.  Printed it
>out to give it a closer read, when i get thru the posts here!
>
>http://www.muc.de/~heuvel/dialogue/dialogue_proposal.html#1
>
>
>Walter
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:08:22 -0400
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Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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Walter I will attempt a meaningful response however, be forwarned my brain
is dancing to some silent music and sense making may not be in step;-)

>Judith,
>
>> I am finding I am not having a negative reaction at all to the interaction
>> between Julienne and JoAnne...interesting... as I engage each message...it
>> brings to mind my youth and waking up each morning to my father, a very
>> educated erudite man of Scottish roots, yelling at my mother...for years I
>> would back away from altercations...then I began to see the benefit as I
>> allowed myself to stand in the face of what was frightening to me...what I
>> found was that great energy was created and that energy had the potential
>> when engaged could shift the issue...I think that is going on here...I have
>> enormous respect for both JoAnne and Julienne...
>
>As i have mentioned your take on this gives me heart ... and i
>find it almost incredible!  And very useful to have ... your
>presence and comments have a 'moderating' effect on me ... more
>later perhaps

Interesting...I often think when I take in your conversation that you have
created a very complex environment for yourself...so many levels and
fascets...I am thinking of a later post here when you mention community and
your work as a therapist and what that requires...it seems to me I am more
free than you in that my intention here is simply to engage with everyone
here...my life is fairly simple and quiet with a core of very interesting
friends, but I get up iin the morning and after my morning ritual and
prayer I enter the day...Psyber-L has risen up from the saline solution in
this time and added a rich dimension to where I am in my life...for this
time I imagine...however, I continue to wonder at the challenge you may be
having with the vision of Psyber-L and your daily work as a
therapist...shapeshifting between therapist and a participant here as one
level of complexity...in this context I would imagine engaging here with
conflict is a learning, a vigilance required to not engage the therapist
within yourself reflexively maybe?...which I see you grasping with...but we
get back to intervention...I trust people here and the process deeply...and
I think there is a bit of self fulfilling prophacy in that...and here goes
a bit of my world view

I view the world as an inner cooperative event, meaning the universe is non
judgemental and says *yes* to whatever I am believing which I may or may
not see...so I always act *as if* this were true because I have no want to
*prove* it...my life experience bears out what I believe to be at
work...life to me is reciprical, so I get what I give...not always in real
time BTW, but it does come back IM experience or how I interpret my
experience

And at the deepest sense of my being I am coming from my version of
spirituality (not to be confused with religion)...I live one *simple*
rule...and it is based in a creation story which is that All That Is in
order to experience itself imploded creating God Seeds...and thus my
interaction with the world feeds back to ATI, my good days and my not so
good days...my intention is to do my work to feed back at the very least
clarity and at the most joy and love...however, this hasis difficult work
but work I embrace joyfully...this is not to be construed as me walking
around each moment in love and light, but it is only my aspiration..my
experience *here* resoundingly supports my view, (doesn't everyone's)...all
the people have been holding me here all the while conflicts emerge...but
this has been a result of difficult learning about receiving with my
illness as the teacher and finally learning to putthe *I can do it myself*
(which is a distortion of responsibility I find) aspect to bed...

>> And another *grain* I think, Messeo you may have more to say than I, I
>> think there is an issue of a personal aesthic...and that may shift along a
>> continuum given a time slice of life...
>>
>> Judith rafting thru the white water
>
>There is a personal aesthetic involved.  At many levels i think.
>One is simply the structure of emails.  Some look exactly like
>white water to me ... waterfalls that are unraftable even!
>
>There is a personal aspect to this to be sure ... i think there
>is also a more objective one.  In most netiquette files there is
>a clause on keeping quotes short, and on being very selective
>quoting quotes and thus getting layers of ">" signs.

There's that word again *objective*...if one means rules as *objective* I
would quibble a bit to say those rules are created by people and people
have intentions and tho it may seem the rules merely speak to objective
issues who determines what *short* means, and what is *very selective* (by
this point I sense I have exceeded even the most liberal interpretation of
these concepts;-)...now there are technical reasons from net history based
in band width and storage space and not wanting to use precious band width
with extraneous stuff...but I would contend that this is based in a value
system and therefore cannot be objective...(with great apologies to logic,
but then I have demonstrated here it isn't my strong suit;-) maybe
*objective* has to do with clarity, nes pas?
>
>Is that anything to do with the personal aesthetics you are
>thinking of ... or is it more in that certain flow of words
>simply feel better to some than others?  You have mentioned that
>Hoon and simon's dialogue pleases you but that it is not one that
>you can tune into!
>
Personal aesthetic because my working belief at the moment is that this is
very deep filter in the psyche, tho Messeo, you have a more informed view
of aesthetic...In the exchanges between Hoon and Simon, I sense the dance
they engage (tho as I've said I couldn't do this dance) and experience an
expression of beauty (there's my aesthetic) which I find permeates me
somehow...I would use the word *energetically* meaning the resonance from
the music they are dancing to and the steps evoke pleasure...this also
occurs in the exchanges with Julienne and JoAnne as well as everyone...so
one mightmake a leap of logic and tentatively conclude that *dancing* is a
personal aesthetic of mine

Feel free to snip away if you feel like responding ;-)

Judith out to catch the dance of the day
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:08:44 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: FREEed!!!Hurrah
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Well, nancy, not a word that has been applied to be that I know of...feels
a bit foreign :-) but hey, who knows what aspect lurks here...healing
continues and the power of image is most healing...
Thank you,
Judith

>You're a sweetie, Judith.  Were it in my power to send, healing would
>surround you like a gentle spring mist of rose petals catching the light
>of dawn.
>     Love, Nancy
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:09:03 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: dining out, communion.Pizzaria!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

MilesNancy,
Thanks for dessert...
Judith

>On Sat, 6 Jun 1998 09:02:22 +1200, Miles Thompson  wrote:
>>Hi all,
>>
>.... Charles, thanks for ... Atman ... I am still... understanding ...
>>
>>At 12:21 14/06/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>>> Ah, the Tasty One 'speaks'.  Today I sense his flavor as a 'mouth full' from
>>> a roll of pizza dough.  Perhaps Anita will roll, shape, top and bake his
>>offering
>>> for the group.
>>>  Miles, my black lab Bear sends regards.  As do I.
>>>         Nancy
>>
>>With what schoolboy latin I can bring to bear, the
>>following variation on the theme...
>-----
>N:  Don't be led astray by Charles assuption that I 'know latin'.  It
>might be that the 'knowing' authority figures are strong in his psyche.
>__
>>
>>Pizza est in Miles, et Bear.
>>
>>(The pizza is in Miles as it is in Bear. )
>----
>N: Bear says that if you will cough yours up he will eat it too.  Since I
>know that you will not agree, I need not turn aside so as not to watch!
>    Bear, Have a little regard for our human sensibilities when you speak.
>Please.
>        Nnancy
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>or at least that was the intention.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------_---------
>>           o  | |
>> _  _  _      | |  _   ,
>>/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
>>  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
>>-------------------------
>>   miles@mail.com
>>   http://www.webolution.com.au/miles
>>-------------------------
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>>
>>
>>
>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:43:05 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks

"The time has come, the...tortoise... Walrus said, to 'speak' of many things...":

On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:08:22 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:

>Walter I will attempt a meaningful response however, be forwarned my brain
>is dancing to some silent music and sense making may not be in step;-)
>
>>Judith 'said',
>>
>>> I am finding I am not having a negative reaction at all to the interaction
>>> between Julienne and JoAnne...interesting... as I engage each message...it
>>> brings to mind my youth and waking up each morning to my father, a very
>>> educated erudite man of Scottish roots, yelling at my mother...for years I
>>> would back away from altercations...then I began to see the benefit as I
>>> allowed myself to stand in the face of what was frightening to me...what I
>>> found was that great energy was created and that energy had the potential
>>> when engaged could shift the issue...I think that is going on here...I have
>>> enormous respect for both JoAnne and Julienne...
>>
--------
N: (editing W)
...>>... almost incredible! ...
--
  According to my father, communication between my parent had all but ceased
very shortly before my advent.  Thus I woke each morning to a home whose air
was think with unspoken, unresolved conflicts dating back 42 years.  So
think...thick... that I could hardly breath (I soon developed alergies culminating in
 asthmas)  I tended to stay very still, for to move in such environs would have
been to dance an infant maenad dance with the gnashing of teeth, tearing of
hair, biting of the hands that fed me.
  Yet oddly, I arrive at the same place of receptivity to Julienne and JoAnne's
conflict.....even presistent  'alergy' to oneanother.  It is SO good to have a container (approximating familial) where they can speak out openly.  For me it is
like handing me a vaste, heavy duty vacuum cleaner which I can carry back, in
active imagination and filter the still existing imaginal air.
  Ahhh....It is humming away...The polluted orange smog is thinning....I can see
the water faintly from where I stand upon the cliff.  It is calm, with only the  gentle
lappings of rythmic, white tipped wavelets.  The increasingly pleasant air is tinged with fresh sea
smells...and a hint of some light spice from a flowering inland vine carried out to sea...
>--------
>Judith cont. ...Psyber-L has risen up from the saline solution in
>this time and added a rich dimension to where I am in my life...
------
N:  As you see, I second that!
-------
[Judith...(maybe...N)]
>>> And another *grain* I think,...
------
N: The 'grain' I find interesting here in Psyber-L has to do with preserving the comfort of ones own
space.  I seem to perceive a moving to and from, an approach distancing between people, which is fascinating.  I observe it particularly toward myself as
a newcomer.  Generated perhaps by thoughts such as 'and who the hell is this?'
 or more gently, 'I wonder from where she comes?'
  I only remark on the phenomina...as much to discriminate it for myself as
anything.  Words as the blunt knives with which we spread lubricating butter
upon the bread of human intercourse.

Judith:    ...In the exchanges between Hoon and Simon, I sense the dance
>they engage....
------
N:  I was fascinated to see the figure I sent to Hoon yesterday converted from the S=smile head above a japanese bow: /\ converted to a graph more reminiscent of the jerky movement of a siamese dancer:
    S
       /\

  Diety only knows how disconnected my 'head' will be from my 'body' after this 'sending'!
  Thus is the dance I as yet do, with you'all here, is  full of approach/distancing which does not yet flow.. Still the bird of hope flies over our efforts.....Not an albatrose, I think.......


N:>>Walter, ' I had a dream.'  (There.  I hope the >,>>, >>>s are confusing all almost as much as they still do me!)
  Actually, it would be more accurate to say that a dream was presented to me Sunday morning (6/14)   It was a Psyber-dream, drawing its content, events, people at least 3/4 from my, to then, participation here.  I am willing to present it on invitation....in brief....at a guess ...dream proper some 1-15 lines....cited posts another few.
  I am taking a risk in offering.....  more than on doing....
  If you or other wish me to proceed, I would ask of you, Walter, that if you respond, when you respond, that you respond souly ...(neat! That said it better than I could) ...solely as intelligent, feeling co-particip.
            Sincere, if often humorous, regards to all,
                          Nnancy
__________________________________________________________________
>>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:04:01 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      intentions of dialogue (was: Re: Simon,
              Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
In-Reply-To:  <3588f967.4078862@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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Walter,

First of all, I thought it might provide a more appropriate focus if I put
this discussion under the rubric of 'intention'. However, as I didn't want
to invade the 'dialogue of intentions' thread (which may yet continue in
its own right!), I thought maybe 'intentions of dialogue' would do instead!
Whaddya think?? I know it shifts the emphasis a little :)

Sorry if this throws your threading to the winds...

Talking of which:

>Charles has made comments on the conventions of quoting and so
>on, all crucial I think.  I use "Forte Agent" and often look at
>the posts by thread, ie they are all arranged so that it can be
>seen who is replying to whom.  Hence the context is always the
>thread for me.  Hence my attempts at educating people to thread
>the posts, probably a lost cause as Outlook 98 does not support
>the feature ... I am not sure about Eudora.  Agent is no longer
>being supported as Forte is sold.

As default I always have posts sorted by date, though I read them as the
whim takes me - my own internal 'sort option', I guess! If I want to, I can
quickly switch Eudora to a threaded view or a sender view; I tend to find
these more useful for locating past posts and for 'retrospective' reading.


>I think there is more involved than quoting styles and software
>views, here, somehow in my wording I failed to give a signal that
>this was not in anyway a disagreement,  or perhaps I sounded like
>a lecturer in my wording

Actually, I think you failed miserably, probably because you didn't really
want to give any such signal. And there's no perhaps about it, you were
lecturing me. I think you're admitting as much in your words; you don't say
so directly, but you don't deny it either.



OR:


>I think there is more involved than quoting styles and software
>views, here, somehow in my wording I failed to give a signal that
>this was not in anyway a disagreement,  or perhaps I sounded like
>a lecturer in my wording, while not feeling like one consciously.
>You go on to say in the original post and in the one I am now
>responding to, things i find i am in harmony with, learning from.
>
>I did not intend to change the meaning of your words ...

Well, there's an interesting issue here about intention in quoting, which I
think has to do with manipulation and (re)presentation. For instance, what
if I left out your second and third sentences in the quote I'm responding
to here? Perhaps also I could leave off the "while not feeling like one
consciously." clause. As I see it, this changes the balance of what you
actually said. Nothing about you being in harmony with anything I wrote, or
not consciously feeling like a lecturer, or not intending to change the
meaning of my words. Now I could respond to you in a different way, and
avoid acknowledging the bits I didn't want to acknowledge, perhaps because
they're inconvenient from/for my point of view.


Heh!

Okay, so I exaggerated for effect!


I know there's no ideal in quoting, because there must always be some
leaving out at some point as a thread develops, unless posts are to get
interminably long. I'm talking about a 'local' effect, really.

And so to what I really felt in response to the full quote of your words:


It didn't feel so much like a disagreement as a misappropriation, or
misrepresentation. Also, I sensed that you weren't consciously lecturing,
and in fact I'm not even sure that you sounded like a lecturer in your
wording. As you quoted but I've missed out (heh!):

> Walter, this is an instance of your response feeling like lecturing to me
> (which, I know, doesn't mean it is).

ie. not necessarily the wording itself.

It may have more to do with framing and (awareness of) context, which would
then change the sense of the words and yes, perhaps the words themselves.
Actually, I recall previously when this issue came up, you said that you'd
been feeling enthusiastic when you wrote the words that I said felt like a
lecture to me. Maybe also here!

I'm glad that we're in harmony on other things, and that you find some
value in what I've been writing. Also, I didn't think that you *intended*
to change the meaning of my words (heh, consciously anyway ;) ).


>What was my intention?   Your post made me think of the idea that
>some people have, and you do not, I know!  That there is no need
>to resolve difficulties here as we can simply delete what we
>don't want.
>
>I thought i was adding a snippet in a bigger discussion ...

Well, I think you were - just not in the way you intended! Or maybe to a
*different* bigger discussion!

As for resolving difficulties and deleting posts, I think everyone should
do what they feel is right for them, find the level of participation (in
both the 'partaking of' and 'taking part in' senses) that suits them. We're
all different, have different lives, different priorities - different
difficulties, too! It will flow as it will...


>I think I do not do that well, and did not do it well with you
>and will need to be more conscious of how I jump into a thread.
>I need to be less cryptic perhaps ... state my intentions ...
>clarify my own thoughts more in the process.
>
>Thanks for drawing my attention to all this Simon!
>
>
>Walter

Well, I think Julienne might be horrified, at this point! "Oh no! Walter's
going to think about things even more!" *grin*

An interesting question at this point might be (to get back to the
'intention' in the title of this thread!): is intention best served by
spontaneity or deliberation?


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:06:38 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Of Wife and Time [GBG] "Important"
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To all prospective GBG group participants:

Part two of this post is most important to me personally, and I'd like
y'all to be sure and read it.  But the thing begins with a response to
Walter's post re flexible scheduling, which is also an important issue --
though as you'll see, maybe one that we can handle without getting into
much if any further discussion.

*

Part One:

Walter wrote:

> Sticking to the time frame might just not work, and renegotiations
> can then take up valuable energy.  I know I can finish rl groups to
> the minute but I am not so confident in cs.

> Alternative suggestion: That we work out a suitable list of
> milestones, for example:

> Preparation.  Two concurrent games of 10 moves each, one for
> the principals, one for the other participants.  Conclusion.  Final
> writing up.

> I like the idea of a 2 week pause, but again, other times I have
> tried this people have wanted to keep some discussion going.

> We can keep in mind the time span you mention without being
> bound by them.  I think this might enable us to be a little more
> relaxed in the process and to let it have its own rhythm! How
> does that sound?

Good points.

I don't mind either way, really: I guess my sense is that some people need
a "firm idea" (eg of what legnth of time commitment they're making) going
into things, but that in the group itself, necessity tends to define its
own dynamic.  So I'll post the "shoot for" time line in the invite, with a
qualifier than it may be adjusted depending on the group's actual dynamics
as we proceed.

My wish is to make as few rules in advance as possible, and yet to have
enough understandings in place by the time we begin playing that if
something comes up, it can be handled.

I think the participants will find that the games in particular, and
threads of semi-game-related posts between participants...

     (eg: saying hello, getting to know the games, etc)

will be the *signal*, and that threads about the details...

     (eg: could we have a pause /
     i'd prefer not /
     but then if we handled it this way /
     what do you think, Charles /
     I'd prefer it if we /
     is there a group concensus /
     yes /
     hey wait, I haven't agreed /
     you trod on my toes /
     can we take this off list? /
     be nice now /
     i was on a different list where /
     but then we're back to the question of /
     i thought we had a concensus)

will seem like the *noise*...

     (although each particular poster may feel that their own
     particular just-about-to-be-written post, "hey wait,
     I haven't agreed" say, is just the one to clear stuff up)

It's a sort of mini "Tragedy of the Commons" situation...

We want a good *signal-to-noise ratio*, so my recommendation is that all of
agree ahead of time to keep the games central, and the meta-conversations
about how we might handle things to a minimum.  During set up, some
restraint in that direction would still be appreciated, since it's only too
easy to fire off a couple of posts with questions, draw six or eight
opinions, and then take 40 more posts sorting the issues out.

Some wording I'll probably use in the preliminary matter at about this point:

::  Minor queries can also be handled in back-channel posts to the
::  GM -- hipbone@earthlink.net -- wihout involving the whole list.

::  The GM may not manage a back-channel response on all
::  occasions, and will whenever possible avoid such responses and
::  just act on the advice offered (or not, as the case may be) to keep
::  the "work" to a minimum -- so don't take non-response as an
::  indication of non-noticing.  I'm noting your posts, considering
::  the issues you raise...

*

Part Two:

On which point -- and relevant to the whole time discussion we're in now --
my wife will presumably be giving birth to a new infant at some time fairly
early in the process, and I shan't have the *twelve hours* I put into
reading and responding to posts here for a day or two a week or so back, or
even the *four or five* hours I've been putting in since things quieted
down.

I generally get an hour or three "morning breather" to read and post before
the wife and child arise, and am pretty ruthless about logging on during
the day whenever possible -- but a newborn requires a lot of attention, and
my post partum beloved will need her tristesse assuaged, quite apart from
the thousand other little tasks needing attention...

I'm "can do" about the project as a whole, in other words -- but whatever
can be done to keep the games front and center, and to minimize the need
for endless meta-responses, will be very much appreciated.  In the short
term, by myself and family --and in the long term, I believe, by us all...

By way of illustration, I now have a file 130 pages of small print long,
containing only the fairly directly relevant messages back-and-forth about
the set-up for this game, beginning Tue, 9 Jun 1998, less than a week ago!
I'm hoping we can be a little less active "around" the parameters, and a
lot more focused "within" them, once the group starts -- because if we're
endlessly discussing how to handle questions about how to handle stuff, the
whole thing turns into an exercise in "building rules for building online
groups", instead of an exploration of "conflict resolution via the use of
games"...

...which is, after all, what you're signing up for.

*

Okay, enough.

The lime juice is in the fridge, help yourselves.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:20:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:49:43 EDT, you, John Gerhart
<JGerh50699@AOL.COM>, wrote:

>Joanne and HooN
>
>Have enjoyed your discussion immensely!  My question:  Do we live indifferent
>realities or is it just our perception of reality that differs?

There's no way to tell, I think.  Most likely it's different
perceptions, but human nature suggests we act as if it were different
realities.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:20:42 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
In-Reply-To:  <19980614234807.CHSX20941@default>
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:47:47 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 04:04 PM 6/14/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>
>>>>Not everyone agrees with you.  There are some who agreed, and still
>>>>agree, with me.  So if we're just going to take a vote, it wouldn't be
>>>>a landslide in your favor.
>>>
>>>Hi JoAnne,
>
>>>I'm not talking about philosophical disagreements, but the specifics
>>>where you accused me of being dishonest. Can you think of one where
>>>I was actually found not to tell the truth?
>>
>>If you mean, found in a court of law, I can't help you there.  If you don't
>>believe anything I say, I can't help you.
>
>Of course I'm not talking about a court of law. Do you really feel
>there is anything you can accuse me of which would belong for
>2 seconds in a court of law? This is how you exaggerate and
>hint darkly at there being so much more than there is in
>situations, JoAnne, and it causes people a lot of angst when
>you do it.

I don't understand at all what you mean by that.  I said, found in a
court of law, as if you would only accept something that had been laid
down by a judge and jury.  You don't seem to accept when I say
something.  You say "found not to tell the truth" as if there has to
be some kind of official finding.

It wasn't meant to be taken darkly and literally.  It was sarcastic.

Which people does it cause angst for?  Why not say it causes you
angst?  Isn't that sufficient?

>That's what I received most of the e-mail about last
>time you were on the list - people were starting to not post
>because they felt that what they said was escalated by you
>beyond recognition, and in contradiction, of what they had
>originally said.
>
>Jo>But I did this before, twice, and here is the primary and earliest example,
>>about the way your email list, ChaoS, works:
>>
>Ju>>>This doesn't mean we all agree with each
>>>>other! On the contrary, there are very animated disagreements. We just
>>>>don't attack each other personally.
>>
>Jo>And yet you and Kris say I attacked you personally on that list, way before
>>you made this statement, and when you made the statement you had just
>>gotten over a person making some very nasty personal attacks like calling
>>someone a faggot, and since then other "personal attacks" have occurred on
>>ChaoS according to you and Kris, by people other than me.
>
>>So.  How can both statements possibly be true?  They can't.
>
>Geez. The person who came on the list and called someone a
>"faggot" was not a regular list member - but someone who came on
>briefly, spouted pretty nastily - and then left quickly, after apologizing,
>going on to another list where she did something similar and caused
>a furor on that other list. I also mentioned that episode previously on
>this list.

Nevertheless it's a valid counterexample, because you didn't say
"regular list members" or "people who stay" or qualify what you said
in any way.

And when I brought that up, instead of saying, maybe I should have
said friendliness and cooperation is the general rule on ChaoS, you
redefine what you said so that you don't have to say you were wrong.

Is there something so horrible and shameful about being wrong that you
can't admit to an error, or overstatement?

>When did Kris and I say other personal attacks had occurred on
>CHA*OS besides yours?
>
>BTW - the person talking about "faggots" was not making a
>personal attack on anyone on the list, as I recall - but just
>swearing about faggots.
>
>To use yourself as the example of personal attacks on
>CHA*OS is sort of disingenuous, JoAnne, isn't it?

Why?  It happened long before you made the statement.

And it's happened again, quite recently, at a time when I wasn't
there, without my support or encouragement or even knowledge.  I only
found out when the person emailed me to say he wanted to join my list.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:20:42 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: left and right brain
In-Reply-To:  <19980615020505.EKCV20941@default>
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:04:52 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 12:55 AM 6/15/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>
>Ko>This sounds like a diagnosis.  I don't know that this has to be true,
>>Julienne.  I don't mean that someone must be 100 percent left or right
>>brained at any one time, but to let one work, and then the other, is the
>>model of a good argument.  Appeal to logic, appeal to what's right.  If it
>>fails either, you throw it out.  That eliminates both the heartless
>>unacceptable schemes and the well-meaning wastes of energy.
>
>This may sound logical, JoAnne - but it's based on a false premise -
>and it's not sound neuroscience. You've also confabulated logic,
>and "what's right." Logical conclusions, and ethical conclusions.
>What we throw out, or ignore, is not nearly as objective a process
>as you suggest.

You misunderstand me.  Logic and "what's right" (morally or
emotionally) are the two _different_ things we concern ourselves with
(not confabulate) in making a good decision.

Do you understand what I meant now?  What you thought I said, I
disagree with too.  Confabulating the two is what I try to avoid, and
what I think you are doing way too often by using both sides of the
brain at once, letting one push the other around.

>Jo>>>That's quite true.  The sensitive JoAnne exists but she is not for
>>>>general consumption!
>>>
>Ju>>But she gets angry when others express that side of themselves,
>>>because she perhaps resents that they allow themselves to
>>>express what she has had to repress.
>
>>I get angry when others express that side of themselves in order to get
>>pity.
>
>So many questions:
>1) How do you know that's why they express that side of themselves.

They get happy when people pity them, and angry or petulant when they
don't get the pity they want.

>2) Why would you assume that's why they express that side of
>themselves - and do you think that is the only reason people express
>emotions?

No.  There are other reasons that are better.  Or worse.  The answer
to (1) is how I decide if they're playing "pity me."

>3) If others express their emotions to elicit "pity" as you refer to it
>harshly, why would that make you angry?

It takes attention away from things that do need peoples' concern.
And it is selfish, self-centered, greedy.

I refer to pity harshly because it's not the same as love, or empathy,
or sympathy even.  It's feeling sorry for someone and letting them
"get away" with things they wouldn't otherwise get away with, excusing
them on a flimsy excuse.  Like, oh, he's blind, so it's okay that he
screams obscenities at everyone in earshot.

Making undue accommodation.

>4) What side of your brain is responding at that time?

That's a good question.  I think both, but in sequence again.  The
left side analyzes the situation, the right side tosses in its two
cents and if it has the same opinion, it reacts with disgust.  So the
response comes from the right brain, then.

I've had other experiences where the left side analyzes one way and
then the right side says, no, it's not like that, and I hold back, or
sympathize, depending on the degree to which the right side overrules
the left.

You probably don't imagine that happens very often, but really it
does.  More often with animals and children than with adults, because
most animals and children aren't in control of their environment
enough to warrant blaming them for much of anything.

I don't reserve my sympathy for the underdog only.  Human pain can
occur in corporate executives, too.  I can react in two ways
simultaneously, too, for example:  sorry you feel that way, and get
off my foot.

>Ju>>Do you still believe this? What ended up happening was even more
>>>extreme than I envisioned when you and I first started the list. How
>>>does one "over-react" to what I was going through?
>
>Jo>You overreacted to things that were not big.
>
>Jo>Before you explode, I'm not talking about your parents and their illnesses
>>and deaths, and the other things that were true horrors.  I'm talking about
>>little things that happened at the same time, that you blew into big
>>things.  Like when someone might say something on the list you thought
>>might cause a problem.  Like the post office incident.
>
>Geez JoAnne. That was not on my list - it  was on another list

Again, you have accidentally combined two things into one and then
"prove" I'm making it up because the two things are not the same.

I agree, they're not the same.  But I'm referring to two different
things, so the rest of your argument isn't relevant.  I'm not accusing
you of anything, because I'm sure you're sincere in your reading, but
it's not what I meant.

>You seem to be muddling a lot of things together.

Actually it's you muddling things together, because you're assuming
I'm speaking of one event, not two (or more).  But I know this is
unintentional, so I'm not going to be offended by it.

Can we start over with that now understood?

>>>What if you had been a therapist, and I had come to you for
>>> counseling? Would you have just told me I was overreacting?
>
>Jo>I'm not a therapist.  I don't want to be a therapist.  But I suppose I
>>would have told you that your reaction to little thing x was out of
>>proportion, and based on your real feelings about big things X Y and Z.
>>And not to "kick the cat" as the saying goes.
>
>Well, what you told me is about the opposite of what I was told. If
>you had negated the reality of my experience in such a way it would
>have been much harder for me to make it through whole.

If I understand you correctly, are you saying a therapist told you
that, please excuse the feeble example, when you cry after seeing a
phone company commercial about talking to your mother, that you're
really crying about the telephone company?

And furthermore, that if someone says mother and you get angry, again
just an example, that that is something you should encourage yourself
to do, in public, to strangers?  Or people who aren't involved with
your grief?  A therapist told you to displace your grief and anger
onto people who are not responsible for any of it?

I'd like to know how much you paid for that advice.

>>>I think the only way I got through
>>>(and it's not through yet) was because I had been doing this work
>>>myself for years, and guiding others through it. I put into effect
>>>everything I could think of to get through. And I haven't told you
>>>or the list all the events - like the 17 times the police came to the
>>>house, the 7 times in court ( there was never a judgement
>>>against me) and so much more. My mother refused to see me
>>>the last 4 months of her life, and disinherited me a few weeks
>>>before she died.  So much more - but I really don't want to have
>>>to giving details to have to "prove" that what I was going through
>>>was unbearable.
>
>>You did tell me about some of those things, and I think ChaoS.
>
>No I didn't - because it didn't happen when you were on the list -
>only about a year and a half later.

Maybe I was mistaken.  Did you write about it on ChaoS at all?  Or
here?  It was familiar to me when I read it; maybe not 17 times the
police came to the house, but police coming to the house; the court
case also.  Only the disinheritance I don't remember ever reading
about from you.

Even half of what you describe is horrible.  I never said it wasn't.

>Jo>I never said what you went through was good or fun or wonderful.  But what
>>I saw was that you reacted to other things in your life as if they were the
>>source of your pain.
>
>And what would you suggest was the source?

You don't think it's your parents' deaths, your 36 animals, two
friends also dying, all that court and police and emotional trouble
caused by your brothers?  That was occurring at the time.  And other
things I won't discuss, because I don't want to be accused of breaking
a confidence, but they were weighing on your mind as we started chaoS.

>Jo>This, by the way, is one of the reasons I find putting people in grief in
>>the middle of the street to be bad for everyone.  Your pain makes you angry
>>at people who do you no harm.
>
>Which people was I angry at who did me no harm? At the time you left the list
>the big events and deaths in my family had not yet occurred.

Yet I do recall you said your mother did not want to see you and was
already dying, your father was dying, and the deaths of your animals
-- hadn't that already happened too?

>>>>>Thinking I was just being overly-sensitive and unreasonable
>>>>> - you took off very quickly without a word - after we had only had
>>>>>the list together for 3 weeks. You had attacked me on the list
>>>>>- and when called on it by others, you protested that this was
>>>>>just an intellectual discussion - and so what was the problem?
>>>>>You thought we were just pitting our brains against each other,
>>>>>and yet I felt very hurt and already vulnerable and as though you
>>>>>were attacking me. We were playing different games, with different
>>>>>rules. I saw you as the cruel bitch from hell, and you saw me as the
>>>>>drama queen faking emotions.
>
>
>>>>>Does this have any resonance for you?
>
>>>>Yes, quite a bit.  I still cringe at the word "attacked" but later in
>>>>the paragraph you seem to say that is your perception, and not my
>>>>intention.
>
>Actually, it was Kris's perception.

Meaning, if Kris perceived it, and you perceived it, it must be true?
I don't think so, Julienne.  You admit above that you believe I
thought we were just pitting our brains against each other.  Why do
you have to imbue everything with an emotional slant, and make it the
one you think I have, instead of believing me when I tell you I
resonate quite a bit with your description of me as detached?

Is that not good enough?  Do you take your cues from Kris on what to
feel, now?  I don't want to think that but it sounds that way from the
way you wrote it.

Kris is a good defender, but that doesn't mean she's always right.
Loyalty is not the only virtue worth having.

>Ju>>Well...let's say that is true, and it wasn't your intention. When others
>>>called it to your attention, why didn't you stop, or at least talk to me
>>>about it?
>
>Jo>You were just as adamant that I must stop arguing in a detached manner, as
>>I was that you get your feelings out of the arguments.  Neither of us was
>>"right" but our actions were just completely incompatible.
>
>Actually, I only tried to discuss with you on the List. It was Kris who
>recognized
>that there was little about your manner that was detached, and called you
>on it.

"Recognized" and "called me on it" implies that is true, and that you
agree.

I don't agree, I think she was wrong, I was detached.  You even seem
to believe that might be true, from what you wrote above that
addressed my left brain.

>And our discussion was absolutely not about feelings or detachment.

We each told the other to do X or stop doing Y, if that's what you
mean, we didn't say the words "feelings" or "detachment" yet it seems
to me that that was really what it was about.

>Jo>I mean, when I called it to your attention that you were taking things
>>personally and didn't need to, you didn't stop, or at least talk to me
>>about it.  You just told me I was vicious.
>
>Do you have any post where I called you "vicious"?
>
>Jo>>> >Thanks, I think this was very productive.
>
>>>Well...do you see it works better when I speak to your left brain?
>
>>>How would it feel to you to speak to my right brain?
>
>Jo>I'm hesitant to even try to speak to your right brain.  It hates me and
>>won't listen to me.
>
>That's a copout...

I said I was hesitant, not that I absolutely refuse.  What will your
right brain do if I do speak to it, do you think?

You made a good attempt to speak to my left brain, which did not upset
me and my left brain, and I think it's because you used your own left
brain.

Now you're sliding back into right-brain, and as you do so you are
also becoming more and more hostile towards me.  Your right brain is
angry at me in a way your left brain is not.

Why would I want to jump into that lake of fire with my right brain?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:20:43 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psychological Explorations
In-Reply-To:  <19980615022702.ASJ15125@default>
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On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:26:57 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 12:55 AM 6/15/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>I'm not upset, but I don't think questioning of motives is ad hominem.
>>Don't you question my motives?  When did I call someone a name and insist
>>it was not ad hominem?  Specifically, succinctly, Julienne.
>
>Excuse me? We are not in the military, JoAnne - don't ask me to jump
>to your specific orders. Go back and reread your posts, JoAnne. I am not
>going to take the time to do it.

In other words, you don't have that handy; maybe not anywhere at all.
You are good at relating your side of the story but not so good at
supporting it, which is what my left brain requires for belief.  It's
not a slave to my right brain, which might want to believe something
horrible about you, or might want to believe something wonderful about
you.

"Look it up" is what you say to the person who wants to assert
something.  Not to the person who challenges your assertion.

>>>One of the angry men went over to JoAnne's list.
>
>>More than one, but you wouldn't necessarily know that.  Does this upset
>>you, or are you happy they're where they are now?
>
>There were only 3 angry men that I knew of. One of those is on your list,
>one is
>one is still on CHA*OS, and I have no idea where the third is.
>
>Neither upset nor happy JoAnne - just glad that CHA*OS is not having to
>interrupt good discussions to deal with the type of hostility which made so
>many leave, or threaten to, when you were last on.

It sounds like you're happy.  I'm happy they're on my list too.

So why bring it up as if it were a problem, or an indictment?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:44:48 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Of Wife and Time [GBG] "Important"
In-Reply-To:  <l03130308b1ab27466b66@[38.29.10.233]>
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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:06:38 -0700, you, Charles Cameron
<hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>, wrote:

>My wish is to make as few rules in advance as possible, and yet to have
>enough understandings in place by the time we begin playing that if
>something comes up, it can be handled.

You will then have to decide who will judge how things will be
handled.  It will have to devolve onto someone.  Who is the final
authority?  Walter?  Yourself?  Your conflict-managment friend whose
name I unfortunately can't bring to mind right this moment?

>On which point -- and relevant to the whole time discussion we're in now --
>my wife will presumably be giving birth to a new infant at some time fairly
>early in the process, and I shan't have the *twelve hours* I put into
>reading and responding to posts here for a day or two a week or so back, or
>even the *four or five* hours I've been putting in since things quieted
>down.
>
>I generally get an hour or three "morning breather" to read and post before
>the wife and child arise, and am pretty ruthless about logging on during
>the day whenever possible -- but a newborn requires a lot of attention, and
>my post partum beloved will need her tristesse assuaged, quite apart from
>the thousand other little tasks needing attention...
>
>I'm "can do" about the project as a whole, in other words -- but whatever
>can be done to keep the games front and center, and to minimize the need
>for endless meta-responses, will be very much appreciated.  In the short
>term, by myself and family --and in the long term, I believe, by us all...

It sounds as if this is a very bad time to start a game -- I don't
know how well you'll be able to sandwich all this stuff in.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:44:48 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:43:05 -0400, you, Nancy Smith
<mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:

>  Actually, it would be more accurate to say that a dream was presented
>to me Sunday morning (6/14)   It was a Psyber-dream, drawing its
>content, events, people at least 3/4 from my, to then, participation
>here.  I am willing to present it on invitation....in brief....at a
>guess ...dream proper some 1-15 lines....cited posts another few.
>  I am taking a risk in offering.....  more than on doing....
>  If you or other wish me to proceed, I would ask of you, Walter, that
>if you respond, when you respond, that you respond souly ...(neat!
>That said it better than I could) ...solely as intelligent, feeling
>co-particip.

I'm interested in the dream, Nancy.  I'm curious about you, learning a
little bit by bit this way is fun.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:55:06 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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Nancy,

>N: The 'grain' I find interesting here in Psyber-L has to do with
>preserving the comfort of ones own
>space.  I seem to perceive a moving to and from, an approach distancing
>between people, which is fascinating.  I observe it particularly toward
>myself as
>a newcomer.  Generated perhaps by thoughts such as 'and who the hell is this?'
> or more gently, 'I wonder from where she comes?'
>  I only remark on the phenomina...as much to discriminate it for myself as
>anything.

I think you're finding/defining your presence here rather well.. in a
flowing, organic, breathing kind of way, as I sense it... The dance of
closeness and distance, perhaps.

What about your own moving to and from? I know for me I have a changing
sense of closeness to and distance from the list, kind of like breathing it
in and out... Same goes for the Internet as a whole... Less suffocating if
I don't have to hold my breath.


>Words as the blunt knives with which we spread lubricating butter
>upon the bread of human intercourse.

And what does that make the filling?? (I'm a 'Marmite baby' myself - if
that makes any sense outside of the UK - though I'm also rather partial to
mustard sandwiches, and right now I'm in to blackcurrent! Marmalade and
cheddar cheese is also rather nice...)

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 17:29:48 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Of Wife and Time [GBG] "Important"
In-Reply-To:  <l03130308b1ab27466b66@[38.29.10.233]>
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At 01:06 PM 6/15/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>> Alternative suggestion: That we work out a suitable list of

>My wish is to make as few rules in advance as possible, and yet to have
>enough understandings in place by the time we begin playing that if
>something comes up, it can be handled.

>It's a sort of mini "Tragedy of the Commons" situation...
>
>We want a good *signal-to-noise ratio*, so my recommendation is that all of
>agree ahead of time to keep the games central, and the meta-conversations
>about how we might handle things to a minimum.

>Part Two:
>
>On which point -- and relevant to the whole time discussion we're in now --
>my wife will presumably be giving birth to a new infant at some time fairly
>early in the process,

And I may suddenly have to move in the middle of everything, too. I haven't
mentioned that, as I think it won't actually happen - but it might.

>By way of illustration, I now have a file 130 pages of small print long,
>containing only the fairly directly relevant messages back-and-forth about
>the set-up for this game, beginning Tue, 9 Jun 1998, less than a week ago!
>I'm hoping we can be a little less active "around" the parameters, and a
>lot more focused "within" them, once the group starts -- because if we're
>endlessly discussing how to handle questions about how to handle stuff, the
>whole thing turns into an exercise in "building rules for building online
>groups", instead of an exploration of "conflict resolution via the use of
>games"...
>
>...which is, after all, what you're signing up for.

Exactly. I'm really glad to hear you say that, because one of the
things which has bothered me on this list is that it seems we have
a post or two, and then a ream of posts where Walter leads a discussion
about the list and how this fits into the agenda of the list and how
he's going to rewrite this or that statement...etc. It's like having a giant
discussion about a picnic - instead of just going on the picnic. By the
time you go on it, who cares?

Looking forward,

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:19:51 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Of Wife and Time [GBG] "Important"
Mime-Version: 1.0
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JoAnne, all:

While I'm working up the words to respond to the first part of JoAnne's
post, let me quickly respond to the second.

> It sounds as if this is a very bad time to start a game -- I don't
> know how well you'll be able to sandwich all this stuff in.

I gently tried to warn you against this impression with my typically Brit
understatement "I'm 'can do' about the project as a whole, in other words"
-- I can do it, and hell and high water would have a hard time stopping me.
But it would be every way much more interesting and less taxing if it
didn't involve interminable parliamentary proceedings: as Shakespeare said,
the play's the thing.

FWIW, the central image of my life in terms of how things fit together is
"flow" -- so it's a matter of "confluence" rather than "sandwiching in" for
me.  The game group will be relaxation from the newborn, the newborn will
be relaxation from the game, roughly speaking.

I'm saying this after a lifetime of putting myself in situations where much
is demanded and finding that much is given -- in line with the Sufi adage
"increase your necessity".  Time is a funny business, almost infinitely
elastic, but that's another story, for another day.

*

Thanks for your concern -- for yourself, the games group and event, my
family and self.  Hope this helps.

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:50:18 +0300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: "Tat Tvam Asi"
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Tat
   Tvam
       Asi,

like  a  sound of  raindrops  falling  just know onto the ground. So pure
and simple. Miles  asked the meaning  of  the phrase. Charles  found  the
time to  answer  on my behalf - thanks, Charles, for it. My  time goes  in
gardening and loving. The  nights are  white  and  short at  this time of
year, and  all people are maniac, no time to sit by the computer and read
e-mails.
     Nancy   remarked the  context  in which I put  the "Tat Tvam Asi". The
phrase arose from  unconsciousness,  in the same way as images of a dream or
a  poem  did arise - or  like  moves  in the GBG-game. The germ of my move
was  Charles' post of Wed. 10 Jun, GBG:Sample ad hominem moves and other
possibilities.
     "How does one resolve anything with an axe murderer?" Julienne asked.
      And Charles  suggested:
    "Maybe, Julienne, by placing "axe murderer" in position 5 on a WaterBird
board, and needing to associate it -- with Lizzie Borden? with "Texas
Chainsaw Massacre"? with felling trees? -- in such a way that the idea you
associated with it *also* linked with JoAnne having maybe played "Silence of
the Lambs" as a link to *her* imprecation?"
      Two  days later Charles wrote  about Milarepa, and  it  - with
Julienne's post  of  the same  day -  triggered  " Tat Tvam Asi" out of  my
unconsciousness. I  simply  tried to say  that the evil  is in me, too. How
can  I - then-  put blame on others? Only just - having read that " the 17
times the police came to the house, the 7 times in court  (there was never a
judgement against me)" -  I did understand, why  Julienne disagreed my post.
My goodness, in  that situation I would  become mad. To Julienne's
knowledge:  I'm a left-handed and  right-brained, my   train of thoughts is
often  clumsy,  I'm not  well adapted  in  the  world,  that's why  I  do
u- turnings to left, when others turn to right.  It  was my big shame in the
school, besides which  I  never understood  what  the  teachers  were
talking of. I'm tired, I can't manage  any longer to  write English.

Best regards
Anita






At 12:36 1998-06-14 -0700, you wrote:
>Nancy writes:
>
>> Then, Charles, might your very erudite amplification be applied
>> to Anita's placement of the phrase ( reduced by me in e e
>> cumming case) be something like this:
>
>>       "go with Ggod"
>>                 ?
>
>I suspect Anita's introspective (novelist's) nature has revealed to her
>that we all carry the germs of the lives of others within us, and that
>she's thinking "that too, I could be" -- not meaning "I'm an axe murderer
>still in search of my axe and opportunity" so much as "I've glimpsed my own
>capacity for murderous hate" and perhaps "better to acknowledge that than
>to attempt to forget it", and maybe "that allows me some insight into the
>condition of others" and no doubt "it's within me to write that character"
>and probably "can't help feeling some compassion for those who are driven
>to such lengths" (see my earlier post on the "judicial" and "therapeutic"
>views of a multiple murderer being possible and even appropriate in the
>same person on occasion, and Tom Harris' book *Red Dragon*) and "thank god
>/ pray god I never find myself pushed that far" and a whole host of other
>such things.
>
>But that's just me, what I'd mean if I said it in a similar context.
>
>>From my own POV, the "this too is within me" insight -- as applied to the
>fiercest of humans' behaviors and underlying motives -- is, like the
>"empathize while judging" paradox applied to the same behaviors, a
>difficult yet desirable balance for some humans to attain -- but may make
>*no sense at all* to others, who perhaps have no need of it.
>
>But if I go into this business at any greater length, I'll be on the topic
>of Upanishadic vs Shakespearean spiritualities, the purities of detachment
>vs riches of the "Homo sum: humani a me nihil alienum puto" variety...
>Terence, I believe, meaning "I am a man: nothing human do I consider alien
>to myself".
>
>But you, Nancy, know latin -- so that last bit is for those who don't.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:30:48 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Fwd: History of the game
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Found on another list, moved over to here!

Simon

-----------

http://www.olywa.net/dcushing/intrachange/history.html


Esteemed Player.....



 As your humble Archivist, it falls to me to relate the history of our
Game, which has long been buried beneath the shifting shadows of time.
What the winds of change have covered, they eventually uncover, and what
has been a subterranean vault eventually looms high on the horizon once
again.

 So it is with the Game:  all through the dark ages, its Players have kept
its flame alive and traced the shadows its light cast upon the pages of
their Archives.

 This is what those Archives say.

 One whole age ago, there was a game of such perfect proportions that it
captured the very language of creation itself.  It was the common source of
its people's sport, spirituality, and art.  With it, the future was
foretold and the past memorialized forever.  With it, the coming
generations were already cared for and the generations past were always
advising the living.  With it, civilization flowered as spontaneously as a
bloom and its citizens governed themselves.  With it, the grand cycles of
making and unmaking were understood and the pursuits of its people were
timed to expand during the one and to contract during the other.  With it,
the natural and the supernatural met on the playing field of its people.

 With it, art and science and religion were all one thing.

 Its original name can no longer be recalled but its meaning translated as
"The Pattern of Order and Chance" - so named because it captured the code
of life and mind that underlies the language of creation itself:  its
originators stood at the very dawn of consciousness, witnesses first-hand
to the pattern of perception awakening within them.  Every player since
then has been heir to their saying:  *Because our mind is made from the
same fabric as the rest of nature, our pattern of perception is identical
to the pattern of what we perceive.*

 All this was long ago, when the world was new and young and whole, when a
game of perfect proportions lay at the very heart of that wholeness.

 But the wholeness did not last.  Division set in and ruled all things.

 And so the world changed and dark times fell on the game of light.

 But its players were prepared, for the Game had foretold the manner and
the moment of its own departing:  in accordance with its will, its players
divided the game into two parts and carried them far away from each other -
far enough that each might survive apart where they both would have surely
perished together.

 To the West they carried its body, where it came to be called "Chess".

 To the East they carried its spirit, where it came to be called "I Ching".

 By this ruse the two have been nurtured until the day they could again be
one.

 Until that time, long ago foretold by the Game, for the reunion of its two
halves.

 Until this time.


  <http://www.olywa.net/dcushing/intrachange/intro.html>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:39:40 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Sandwiches & Ants.
In-Reply-To:  <v03110701b1ab35bfb1ab@[195.200.13.134]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>And what does that make the filling?? (I'm a 'Marmite baby' myself - if
>that makes any sense outside of the UK - though I'm also rather partial to
>mustard sandwiches, and right now I'm in to blackcurrent! Marmalade and
>cheddar cheese is also rather nice...)
>
>Simon

LIGHT AND FRIVOLOUS POST to follow....

Ok the ultimate sandwich..Marmite and fried Bacon (toasted).
I tried giving Marmite on toast to an American once, they tried it and
looked at me with the same kind of revulsion I felt when once I accidently
french kissed my Great Dane.

Second to that, you can't beat Bannana and Peanut butter,or good old Heinz
Sandwich Spread. When I was pregnant I had the strangest desires for
curried Mackeral fillet sandwiches, that thankfully ended when the
pregnancy did. By all rights Taras going to have the IQ of Einstein with
the amount of oily fish I consumed.

This rates with the post I once sent about depilidation and my armpits.
Where are you Fritz?

Dolores.

P.S Baby Barry is a cutie, he can join my playgroup.

p.p.S I gave some thought to the ant thing, they might walk round a pile of
salt, but if it was a pile of sugar, it'd be an entirely different story,
anyway I still don't get it.

I also had no idea what Ad Hom whatever means..oooo guess I'm dense.

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>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:03:58 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
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At 08:20 PM 6/15/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:

>I don't understand at all what you mean by that.  I said, found in a
>court of law, as if you would only accept something that had been laid
>down by a judge and jury.  You don't seem to accept when I say
>something.  You say "found not to tell the truth" as if there has to
>be some kind of official finding.
>It wasn't meant to be taken darkly and literally.  It was sarcastic.
>Which people does it cause angst for?  Why not say it causes you
>angst?  Isn't that sufficient?

No JoAnne, as I mention below, I received e-mail and ICQ communications
from so many people who were just played out and overwhelmed by your
playing havoc with the list for weeks. Not just my angst - theirs as well.

>>That's what I received most of the e-mail about last
>>time you were on the list - people were starting to not post
>>because they felt that what they said was escalated by you
>>beyond recognition, and in contradiction, of what they had
>>originally said.

>>Geez. The person who came on the list and called someone a
>>"faggot" was not a regular list member - but someone who came on
>>briefly, spouted pretty nastily - and then left quickly, after apologizing,
>>going on to another list where she did something similar and caused
>>a furor on that other list. I also mentioned that episode previously on
>>this list.

>Nevertheless it's a valid counterexample, because you didn't say
>"regular list members" or "people who stay" or qualify what you said
>in any way.

And this is all you can come up with to prove your neverending
plaint that I am dishonest? That I left out all possible qualifiers?

JoAnne, at moments like this I just have to laugh! There is no way I
could probably ever state anything which didn't leave out some possible
cover or qualifier that you couldn't dredge up.

>>To use yourself as the example of personal attacks on
>>CHA*OS is sort of disingenuous, JoAnne, isn't it?

>Why?  It happened long before you made the statement.

>And it's happened again, quite recently, at a time when I wasn't
>there, without my support or encouragement or even knowledge.  I only
>found out when the person emailed me to say he wanted to join my list.

<laugh>Well..there goes our third angry man, I guess.

You know, JoAnne, I think it's best if we leave our discussion until
the GBG. As you are now talking about being sarcastic, and back
on to talking about my list, I am going to withdraw. There is no
point in a discussion based in deliberate baiting, and that is what
I sense coming from you.

So - on to the games!

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:20:48 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sandwiches & Ants.
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980616003940.007ca100@easynet.co.uk>
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At 12:39 AM 6/16/98 +0100, Dolores wrote:

>I also had no idea what Ad Hom whatever means..oooo guess I'm dense.

Hi,

An ad hominem attack is an atack against the person
instead of just the person's ideas.

For example:

I f you said the world was made of green cheese, and I disagreed by saying
" I doubt - do you have any evidence?" - or some such thing - that would be
fine.

But if you said, "You think the world's made of green cheese? You're a liar
and a moron and the stupidest idiot in the world...!" - that would be an ad
hominem attack - an attack on the person's character.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:44:32 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re P] Fwd: History of the game
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Simon:

> Found on another list, moved over to here!

If I might ask, what list did you find this on, and how did such a post
arise there?

William Horden -- who devised the IntraChange Game from which this
preliminary text was drawn -- is an old and valued friend, and used to be a
subscriber my Magister-L list a while back.  I heard from him only the
other day.

On my own website at:

     http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/variants.html

I quote Hermann Hesse thus:

::  A reader who chanced to be ignorant of the Glass Bead Game
::  might imagine such a Game pattern as rather similar to the
::  pattern of a chess game, except that the significance of the pieces
::  and the potentialities of their relationships to one another and
::  their effect upon one another multiplied manyfold and an actual
::  content must be ascribed to each piece, each constellation, each
::  chess move, of which this move, configuration, and so on is the
::  symbol.

and write:

::  William Horden's Intrachange performs a skillful marriage of
::  Chess and the I Ching, and thus provides the best current
::  expression of the GBG as chess-like game. William takes brilliant
::  advantage of the correspondences between the 64 hexagrams of
::  the I Ching and 64 squares of the chess-board, the 8 trigrams of
::  the I Ching and 8 files of the chessboard, the 6 lines of a
::  hexagram and the 6 pieces in a chess set, and the two aspects --
::  yin and yang -- which form the basis of all lines in the I Ching,
::  and the two sides in a game of chess. Playable initially via the
::  World Wide Web.

If you're interested, you'll find my article at that URL describes most of
the current "GBG variants" which have been proposed.

But pray tell whence this synchronicity arises...


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:27:30 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Sandwiches & Ants.

Hi Dolores, Simon.  Think you're both in my dream (or positive figures influenced by your sweet presences.

On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:39:40 +0100, Dolores  wrote:

>>And what does that make the filling?? (I'm a 'Marmite baby' myself - if
>>that makes any sense outside of the UK
----
N: I thought it was a little varmit, but Bookshelf says its a small casserole dish???
------
 - though I'm also rather partial to
>>mustard sandwiches,
----
N:  ugh...like mustard, mayonaise, honey spread ON sandwiches.
------
and right now I'm in to blackcurrent! Marmalade and
>>cheddar cheese is also rather nice...)
---
N: Now that sounds better.  May I have apricot marmalade with my cheese, please?
----
>>
>>Simon
>
D: >LIGHT AND FRIVOLOUS POST to follow....
>
>Ok the ultimate sandwich..Marmite and fried Bacon (toasted).
>I tried giving Marmite on toast to an American once, they tried it and
>looked at me with the same kind of revulsion I felt when once I accidently
>french kissed my Great Dane.
----
N: If marmite is some sorta hedgerow critter, I'm definitely with your Great Dane...
Urg...hold the french kiss, though....love Great Danes, but not quite that much.
----->
>Second to that, you can't beat Bannana and Peanut butter(urrrmmm...aaa)  or good old Heinz
>Sandwich Spread.(ok.) When I was pregnant I had the strangest desires for
>curried Mackeral fillet sandwiches, that thankfully ended when the
>pregnancy did  (Oh, I dunno.  McDonalds has a sandwich...one of the less awful of their offerings)  . By all rights Taras going to have the IQ of Einstein with
>the amount of oily fish I consumed.(Dunno if you want that.  Just incountered a book, Mrs. Einstein, telling how the prospective Mrs. and he gave up a child born to them for adoption....and then they married....well...hmmm...dunno...)
>
>This rates with the post I once sent about depilidation and my armpits.
>Where are you Fritz?
>
>Dolores.
>
>P.S Baby Barry is a cutie, he can join my playgroup.
>
>p.p.S I gave some thought to the ant thing, they might walk round a pile of
>salt, but if it was a pile of sugar, it'd be an entirely different story,
>anyway I still don't get it.
----
N: Architypal feminine...salt of the earth...crystal.....no mind ant....salt would burn an ant, I should think.
------
>
>I also had no idea what Ad Hom whatever means..oooo guess I'm dense.
>"apealing to personal considerations rather than logic or reason".
Wonder why I can't persuade Bookshelf to copy directly into this post...
    ermmm....humph....and on that note I'll take my leave....Nnancy
>____________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

Hi, Dolores, Simon....

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:42:51 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks

On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:55:06 +0100, Simon G. Trask  wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>>N: The 'grain' I find interesting here in Psyber-L has to do with
>>preserving the comfort of ones own
>>space.  I seem to perceive a moving to and from, an approach distancing
>>between people, which is fascinating.  I observe it particularly toward
>>myself as
>>a newcomer.  Generated perhaps by thoughts such as 'and who the hell is this?'
>> or more gently, 'I wonder from where she comes?'
>>  I only remark on the phenomina...as much to discriminate it for myself as
>>anything.
>
>I think you're finding/defining your presence here rather well.. in a
>flowing, organic, breathing kind of way, as I sense it... The dance of
>closeness and distance, perhaps.
>
>What about your own moving to and from?
-----
N: Oh, you bet, Simon.  For example I felt myself withdrawing ever so slightly from "...I...think...nicely."   Why?  I like but don't entirely trust compliments.  Why?  Because if one can 'judge' something 'good' in me they are equally priveleged to judge something 'bad' in me.  Nothing really new about this.  Just though I'd specify.
  Perhaps your inner sensing of that was why you immediately went a little vague in:  " I know for me I have a changing
>sense of closeness to and distance from the list, kind of like breathing it
>in and out... Same goes for the Internet as a whole... Less suffocating if
>I don't have to hold my breath."
>
>
>>Words as the blunt knives with which we spread lubricating butter
>>upon the bread of human intercourse.
>
>And what does that make the filling??
----
N:  Murrr...nurf...umph....????
___
 (I'm a 'Marmite baby' myself - if
>that makes any sense outside of the UK - though I'm also rather partial to
>mustard sandwiches, and right now I'm in to blackcurrent! Marmalade and
>cheddar cheese is also rather nice...)
>
>Simon
>
N:  I feel you as a friendly presence 'here', Simon.

      Nnancy
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:01:38 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: "Tat Tvam Asi"

On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:50:18 +0300, Anita Konkka  wrote:

>Tat
>   Tvam
>       Asi,
>----
N: I like that, Anita.  It's like a haiku.  The following seems even more haiku-like.
-----
>like  a  sound of  raindrops  falling  just know onto the ground. So pure
>and simple.
----
N: I played with "sound of...But my server wouldn't let me post it.  I was too slow.
------
 Miles  asked the meaning  of  the phrase. Charles  found  the
>time to  answer  on my behalf - thanks, Charles, for it. My  time goes  in
>gardening and loving. The  nights are  white  and  short at  this time of
>year,
-----
N: I remember a Finnish night, just slightly later in the summer.  All slept after the sauna, except I.  It was so odd for me that the light went on and on.
-----



>>My goodness, in  that situation I would  become mad.
----
N:  And those do, perhaps, who cannot say, 'There, but for the grace of ...grace, go I.'
----
  I'm not  well adapted  in  the  world,
-----
N: Nor I in a colletive since.  I suspect that nearly all of us on Psyber-L are '1 in every 100'    Perhaps that is why we like it here.
>
>   go with grace,

             Nnancy
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:11:13 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <v03110701b1ab35bfb1ab@[195.200.13.134]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>And what does that make the filling?? (I'm a 'Marmite baby' myself - if
>that makes any sense outside of the UK - though I'm also rather partial to
>mustard sandwiches, and right now I'm in to blackcurrent! Marmalade and
>cheddar cheese is also rather nice...)

Hi Simon,

I grew up both a Marmite and a Vegemite baby - and have a cfriend in
Australia
who still sends me Vegemite. Marmite is sometimes sold here in the US, and
can be bought in Canada. Lovely on warm toast with the butter warm and a
little runny. :) I also put it on sandwiches with meat fillings...or just
lettuce and tomato.

Marmalade - yes - especially when it's very tart.  Blackcurrent and
raspberry.

Saudades...homesickness...

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 23:20:12 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks

On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:44:48 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:

>On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:43:05 -0400, you, Nancy Smith
><mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:
>
>>  Actually, it would be more accurate to say that a dream was presented
>>to me Sunday morning (6/14)   It was a Psyber-dream, drawing its
>>content, events, people at least 3/4 from my, to then, participation
>>here.  I am willing to present it on invitation....in brief....at a
>>guess ...dream proper some 1-15 lines....cited posts another few.
>>  I am taking a risk in offering.....  more than on doing....
>>  If you or other wish me to proceed, I would ask of you, Walter, that
>>if you respond, when you respond, that you respond souly ...(neat!
>>That said it better than I could) ...solely as intelligent, feeling
>>co-particip.
>
>I'm interested in the dream, Nancy.  I'm curious about you, learning a
>little bit by bit this way is fun.
------
N: Thanks, JoAnne.  I want everyone to have fun.  Amiacable fighting can be fun.  To me psyho...psyche-work IS fun.  I'm enjoying getting to know the personal JoAnne behind the logic.
  Actually I'm enjoying getting to know mySelf here also.  Didn't know I abreviated 'participation'.  Wonder what It means by prticip...party sip...?  Hmm..
just checked the spelling typing parcip.....I guess I want Walter to stay on a 'par'
with others as much as possible and not to revert to a transactional 'parent' any
more than absolutely necessary.
-------
>-JoAnne

>   go with grace, Nnancy

PS I'm sorta waiting on Walter on the dream...may not....hmmm.  Guess we'll see.
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:22:55 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998061523201350@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 11:20 PM 6/15/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:

...I guess I want Walter to stay on a 'par'
>with others as much as possible and not to revert to a transactional
'parent' any
>more than absolutely necessary.

I agree with this, Nancy. :)

What's "necessary"? That's a question we might consider...  ?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:39:29 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: The Kiersey [adapted Myers-Briggs] test
In-Reply-To:  <l03130307b1a91780b7a9@[38.29.10.84]>
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>, on Sat, 13 Jun 1998 23:01:06
-0700 you wrote:

>Julienne:
>
>The test itself is fun and easy.  Interpreting the results is a little
>trickier, because the terminology is not very well thought out, and the
>words used to describe types and styles have "technical" meanings in the
>context of the test that are rather different from their meanings in
>everyday usage.  I hope the following notes will help you...
>
>The eight terms which the test refers to come in pairs, and everyone tends
>to have one of each pair that they tend towards, but as indicated above,
>the terms themselves are a little confusing if you take them at face value.
>And the reason that I find the test so helpful is that I'm *so* sure of my
>leanings on one of the pairs, and almost completely unable to choose
>between two of the others.
>
>As I said, I turn out to be what Kiersey, the author of this particular
>test, calls an "INFP" or "healer", but am only a shade away from being an
>"INTP" or "designer".  On the cusp, as you'd say.  And not too far from
>INFJ and INTJ either ("counselor" and "mastermind" respectively).
>
>"I" means I'm more introverted (introspective) than extroverted ("E").

Introverts are drained by big social events and recharge alone.  Extroverts
are drained by loneliness and recharge by being around other people.

>"N" means I'm iNtuitive  rather than ("S") Sensate -- but the terms are a
>little misleading here: a "sensation function" person is someone who knows
>what the physical world and the world of facts is doing, whereas the
>intuitive is defined as someone who works with pattern and process.

Intuitives see the pattern immediately and may overlook a real-life detail.
Sensates see the individual circumstance immediately and may
compartmentalize experience instead of realizing there is a pattern.

This particular preference has to do with how we gather our information,
how we collect our thoughts, and is sort of related to the P function later
(perceiving).  The typical N will think about it, noodle with others or
alone.  The typical S will go into the field and experience it.

>"F" and "T" stand respectively for those who value things according to how
>good they feel about them ("Feeling) vs those who value them according to
>how their clarity apprehends value ("Thinking") -- roughly the approaches
>of "mercy" and "justice" respectively.  I personally can hardly distinguish
>between the two approaches, because for me they're two sides of the same
>coin.  Head and heart need to work together in my book: I'm clear about
>that -- I don't think it feels right any other way <grin>.

This preference has to do with how you make decisions.  If you're having a
hard time with it, you might not be very J.  Feeling means you prefer to
make a choice based on what feels right to you.  Thinking means you prefer
to make your choices on a rational, or at least seemingly rational, basis.

>And "P" and "J" refer to "perception" and "judgment", which for reasons
>that escape me are the words used to describe whether "the finished
>product" is more important to you, or "the process".  Nothing about
>"judgmental" vs "non-judgmental", in fact, just a question as to whether
>you like closure more than process or process more than closure.

P is generally waiting for perfect information and feels no need to come to
any conclusions.  P programmers are constantly tinkering and perfecting
their programs.  J is ready to close the book when it looks like the
functionality has been covered.  J programmers actually get the product out
the door.

J's don't necessarily engrave the results in stone; they just want to make
a milestone.  Reversing a decision for a J is much less traumatic than
never making one.

I'm glad you addressed that "judgmental" question.  Novices, on hearing the
terms for the first time, say, I'd really rather be one of those wise
perceptive people than those horrible closed-minded judgmental people.
Funny that _that_ is a snap judgment.

>And
>again, I'm someone who values both about equally, so it's a close call
>whether I'm "INFP/INTP" cusp or "INFJ/INTJ".  I could pass for any one of
>these, but what's pretty clear is that I'm more of an introvert than an
>extrovert, and *way* more intuitive than sensate.

If you can't decide, chances are you're not J!

>Carl Jung said that everyone would have one of the "middle four" (N or S, F
>or T) as what he termed their "leading function", which would be their
>basic strategy in life; probably some development of one or other or both
>of the pair that was not their "leading function" (since my leading
>function is N intuition, I'd have some F and some T, though not necessarily
>balanced), and *real problems* with the one opposite their leading
>function, aka their shadow.

I'm INTJ so the J points to the third pair as source of my leading function
-- T.  I can do N or S, but F is a problem.  Of course we learn as time
goes on to deal with even our least favored function, but it's not the one
we pull out when it's playtime.

Interestingly the "vacation" function is the one opposite our less dominant
-- in my case, S.  In your case, T.  Vacation meaning, that's what we might
do for a change-of-pace fun thing.  It's different enough to be fun but
does not challenge the leading function.

>So as an "N", I have problems with "S" predictably enough -- and that's the
>area I need most work on, most fear, most easily get frustrated and angered
>by and guilty about, etc.
>
>As far as the other four are concerned, "E" and "I" are so fundamental that
>they've passed into the language -- and "P" and "J" are later add-ons to
>Jung's original system, as far as I know, and I'd be just as happy if they
>went away again.

Not me.

JoAnne, little miss J

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:39:33 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Of Wife and Time [GBG] "Important"
In-Reply-To:  <l0313030bb1ab4d3058b2@[38.29.10.233]>
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Hello Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>, on Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:19:51
-0700 you wrote:

>JoAnne, all:
>
>While I'm working up the words to respond to the first part of JoAnne's
>post, let me quickly respond to the second.
>
>> It sounds as if this is a very bad time to start a game -- I don't
>> know how well you'll be able to sandwich all this stuff in.
>
>I gently tried to warn you against this impression with my typically Brit
>understatement "I'm 'can do' about the project as a whole, in other words"
>-- I can do it, and hell and high water would have a hard time stopping me.
>But it would be every way much more interesting and less taxing if it
>didn't involve interminable parliamentary proceedings: as Shakespeare said,
>the play's the thing.

I see your point now.  Sorry for being obtuse.  I just didn't want to get
in the middle of something and have it fall all apart.  Because I don't
know you much and wasn't involved in the previous games I didn't know to
what extent I could expect a steady Charles Cameron presence.

>FWIW, the central image of my life in terms of how things fit together is
>"flow" -- so it's a matter of "confluence" rather than "sandwiching in" for
>me.  The game group will be relaxation from the newborn, the newborn will
>be relaxation from the game, roughly speaking.

Good, then.

>I'm saying this after a lifetime of putting myself in situations where much
>is demanded and finding that much is given -- in line with the Sufi adage
>"increase your necessity".  Time is a funny business, almost infinitely
>elastic, but that's another story, for another day.
>
>*
>
>Thanks for your concern -- for yourself, the games group and event, my
>family and self.  Hope this helps.

Yes, thanks for your reassurance.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:39:35 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sounds of music and the Underworld
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980615195236.01074620@postoffice.att.net>
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Mon, 15 Jun 1998 20:03:58
-0400 you wrote:

>You know, JoAnne, I think it's best if we leave our discussion until
>the GBG. As you are now talking about being sarcastic, and back
>on to talking about my list, I am going to withdraw. There is no
>point in a discussion based in deliberate baiting, and that is what
>I sense coming from you.

Hmm.  Ask me for a specific example of something, and my example is then
considered baiting?  I sense you feel you can't win this, so you retire.
But that's okay.  I can wait for the games.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:11:18 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi, all

This morning,
I am writing this mail, thinking of the GBG game & my negative
acts((cf).deleting without reading mails and further filtering them,
and disliking someone-->our own wrong reactions should seem to us so
much less heinour than the wrong reactions of others), and my country

**********************************

Today is the historically meaningful day of my country.
An old man(83 years old) and his suite go over the Military
Demarcation Line, with 500 head of cattle.
(His hometown is situated in North Korea.)

It is the first publically admitted act since 1953.
Until now, it's impossible to cross it without violating the current
law. If someone cross it, He/she have to be imprisoned.
 * long-standing enmity (for 45 years) between North and South.
 * still remained obstinate communist regime of North.

....It may be a symbolic act of reconciliation.

 Anyway, Because of my historical and  usual experiences,  I don't
seem to  expect any true
harmony and reconciliation between opponents.

Both have to  give up their own selfish interests  and understand the
opponents' position  and
accept them as it is, in order to make it possible.

But, in real life, it might be impossible(it's only our ideal).
Only when it satisfy their selfish interests, they seem to make an
ostensible compromise.

So to speak,
 Although both tell of unification of North and South,
 it's only a diplomatic speaking and act for surviving in the world.
Of course,  most people  of both nations  are eager for unification.
(...inner, deep wishes as  human beings.
-->Because humans want to be freed from restrains.
 Only after unification, we can go anywhere in the Korean Peninsula
and say freely without fear of violating the current law)

But, each nation pursues its  own  interest(survival as  individual,
autonomous organism),  too  tiny  interest(from the point of view of
eternity)

*one---the need of economical aid .
the other-..expansion of a specific company's interests.
          ..display of generous and active policy of new government,
and solution of economical difficulties.

Finally,
 if they have long, deep animosity and disbelief in opponents,
 if both enjoy malicious attack(maybe, struggle for recognition)
itself and, by it, aspire to become the king/queen of the
jungle(space) and to reign the space arbitrarily,
  true reconciliation(concession and forgiveness) might be impossible.

But, even if we  have failed to achive unification for 45 years and
experienced the cruel betrayal, we are all  expecting new horizon
toward true unification.
    We are dreaming "Unification Day".
    (Of course, more coolly than few years ago.
     we noticed the results of unification of West and East (Germany))
....Someday, we all dance and song and cry for joy.
****************************

....True acceptance not by brain, but by inner heart....
....By GBG game ..........maybe, it's possible.
    (I don't know GBG game exactly and enough)

I think both(opponents) need to have much more openness in mind, in
order to achieve it.
  (sometimes,exchanging role..(Ju<-->JO)
             or creating another existence(as in MOO))

Even if I am suspicious of the possibility of true reconciliation,
 I wish J&J have a deep spiritual confrontation in GBG Game,  and, by
it, finally achieve mind's peace and delight.
 ........
 Then, I also would not have a headache(directly derived from their
aggressive words).

Best wishes.

Meeseo.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:26:29 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominy attacks

Hi, Julienne,

On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:22:55 -0400, Julienne  wrote:

>At 11:20 PM 6/15/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>
>...I guess I want Walter to stay on a 'par'
>>with others as much as possible and not to revert to a transactional
>'parent' any
>>more than absolutely necessary.
>
>I agree with this, Nancy. :)
>
>What's "necessary"? That's a question we might consider...  ?
-------
N:  Yes.  I feel/think (though not quite at the same time)  that's valid.  Certainly I
was glad to be shut of Varman.  Though I'm still not dead sure if Walter booted
him/her off or not.  Certainly she/he was 'asking' to leave as he/she stubbled
blindly about flailing.
  But I think I can also see Walter staying out of partisan stuff.  I know I make
mistakes of all sorts, including some that may cause others discomfort.  I'd sure
hate to have Walter come down on me with the full force of his authority as
list-owner.  It blunts the cutting edge I use as I hop back and forth over the
madness/sanity boundry when someone goes into 'parent' mode at me.  I need
that 'edge' to help me reclaim bits of lost soul that are on the 'other' side.
  Dunno if this is at all clear.  It's so late that my fingers are stumbling and likely so are my thoughts.
  You know, Julienne, I hope you will take that Jungian type test to which Charles referred.  I also hope you'll share the results.  I think that it might shed
some light for you (and us if you feel like sharing) about interpersonal stuff.  It sure did for me when I discovered his...Jung's typology...in fact it still does.
>
>Julienne

   Anon, go'nite and go with grace,
           Nnancy>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 00:20:11 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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Julienne,

I don't understand.  I hear so much gentleness in your words then I hear
attack.  I sense a blindness and deafness to your issues and your own
voice.  But, I realise that I am really just speaking about the things
that I hear and the things that I see.

I don't understand why I am reacting to your words as though you were
attacking so many people ... I'm not offering a diagnosis, but I hear
echoes of passive-agressive (my mother being echoed?).  It seems at
times as though if one is not stating categorically that you are right
and JoAnne is wrong, that you have been again wounded and strike back
...

I can't pick sides.  This isn't about picking sides as there is too much
history, too many words on too many lists that make up the history of
this aggressive dialogue of defense and attack and justification and
one-up-(wo)manship.  I am getting angry that this J&J dialogue seems to
be going in circles in a vat of acid.  I'm glad that Charles and Walter
have begun the process of the GBG in hopes of resolving the "impasse".

Somehow, I think that you would want me in the ring with you once you
have vanquished JoAnne and Walter ... I sense that you do see this as a
competition.  I hope that I am wrong, very wrong about everything.  I
don't handle anger well.  Usually I just "bugger off".  This time I am
staying.  I will not join in the game as I have too many emotions
involved at this time in just moving through this part of my life.

I hope that you will forgive me these words as I try to do the same.  I
don't want any more "she said / she said"
justifications/incriminations.  This is my list too.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:58:05 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
In-Reply-To:  <35860E9B.2791@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 12:20 AM 6/16/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>I don't understand.  I hear so much gentleness in your words then I hear
>attack.  I sense a blindness and deafness to your issues and your own
>voice.  But, I realise that I am really just speaking about the things
>that I hear and the things that I see.

>I don't understand why I am reacting to your words as though you were
>attacking so many people ... I'm not offering a diagnosis, but I hear
>echoes of passive-agressive (my mother being echoed?).  It seems at
>times as though if one is not stating categorically that you are right
>and JoAnne is wrong, that you have been again wounded and strike back

>I can't pick sides.  This isn't about picking sides as there is too much
>history, too many words on too many lists that make up the history of
>this aggressive dialogue of defense and attack and justification and
>one-up-(wo)manship.  I am getting angry that this J&J dialogue seems to
>be going in circles in a vat of acid.  I'm glad that Charles and Walter
>have begun the process of the GBG in hopes of resolving the "impasse".

>Somehow, I think that you would want me in the ring with you once you
>have vanquished JoAnne and Walter ... I sense that you do see this as a
>competition.  I hope that I am wrong, very wrong about everything.  I
>don't handle anger well.  Usually I just "bugger off".  This time I am
>staying.  I will not join in the game as I have too many emotions
>involved at this time in just moving through this part of my life.
>
>I hope that you will forgive me these words as I try to do the same.  I

>don't want any more "she said / she said"
>justifications/incriminations.  This is my list too.

Robert,

You have made me think.

Your words seem filled with so much rage and hatred
towards me. I feel that if you feel that way, others must too
.
I have not seen you get this angry at JoAnne, and I have not
seen Walter get as angry as JoAnne as at me.

Although I keep hearing denials, I don't think anyone is
really paying attention to what is happening here. You
want me to be nice all the time, despite whatever happens,
whatever is said. Two of my friends tonight said that this
is making me sick, and that I should unsubscribe from
this list. I didn't even consider what they said - because I
felt that the game might help.

But I have felt so sick on this list. I feel on the defensive
all the time. It doesn't matter what JoAnne says about
me, she is hardly called on it. And yet I am told by several
of you that I can't see myself, that I am just not nice to
JoAnne. I feel as though I have to defend myself for
being raped. I am sure you think I am exaggerating, but
my friends who have been there when I have been through
these experiences with JoAnne, don't.

Enough of you have made it clear that you don't really
care what actually happened - you just don't want to
hear about it. Well...I don't understand that. I think what
happened does count. I came on this list, and JoAnne
attacked me - and you all let it happen. It still goes on -
and still you let it happen and get angry with me rather than
JoAnne. Today she says she is being sarcastic, and she
is enjoying taking people from my list - but I am the one
you are angry at.

Well, I think I have to think about this. To see such anger
and rage coming at me is horrifying. I know I don't deserve it.
And I know that I can't keep this up at this rate. I thought
this might be an opportunity for me to learn to fight back
when attacked, but I am not so sure. It hasn't been my
way in the past. It wasn't my way on my list - but JoAnne
came along and over half the list left because I wouldn't
unsubscribe her. Well, maybe I should have. And maybe
I should unsubscribe myself from here as well. I don't
think this is a healthy place for me - and hasn't been from
the first day you decided it was all right for JoAnne and
Wilbur to hurt me so.

I think, from the tone of your post, that there may be little
point to the glass bead game. Why is it me you yell at? Is
it perhaps that I am less scary than JoAnne? Maybe
that's something to think about.

About two weeks ago I decided not to engage JoAnne
in any more discussions, but I went ahead, despite my
misgivings, because Walter talked about wanting closure,
and because I thought maybe I was just afraid of dealing
with people like JoAnne.  I now think I made a mistake,
and should have said nothing, despite her goading.
No good has come of it - and I don't think any good
can come of it now. If your reaction is any measure of
this list, then it is not worth it to me to attempt any
understanding or reconciliation. It might be an
exercise to all of you, but I seem to be the pawn in
the game.

If the glass bead game is a matter of "being in the ring",
as you put it  Robert, then it is not a game, but something
meant to injure someone, and I do not want to be part of
something which is supposed to be a game, but is apparently,
from your reference, Robert, something much meaner.

Do you really believe that the person raped asks for it?
Or the person murdered? Or the person hurt? I think
people need to take responsibility for their actions, and not
blame the person they damage.

I am going to go and think. But I think I am going  to
conclude that this is enough - it is time to withdraw
myself from the effort I have been trying to make to
come to terms with my experience on this list. Maybe
there are no more terms...maybe it's all done - and
maybe I don't have to put myself through it any more.

I have no intention of taking your list away from you,
Robert.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:52:58 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Re P] Fwd: History of the game
In-Reply-To:  <l0313030db1ab7e26e0ee@[38.29.10.233]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Simon:
>
>> Found on another list, moved over to here!
>
>If I might ask, what list did you find this on, and how did such a post
>arise there?
>
>William Horden -- who devised the IntraChange Game from which this
>preliminary text was drawn -- is an old and valued friend, and used to be a
>subscriber my Magister-L list a while back.  I heard from him only the
>other day.

It was posted to the Cybermind: Philosophy and Psychology of Cyberspace
list by a regular contributor, as a
found-this-on-the-web-and-thought-it-might-be-of-interest post. There's no
game orientation as such on the list. Cybermind is a 'chat/community' type
list with a (very!) loose orientation around cyberspatial theory; in
practice, all sorts of stuff gets thrown into the pot as added flavouring.


>On my own website at:
>
>     http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/variants.html

...

>If you're interested, you'll find my article at that URL describes most of
>the current "GBG variants" which have been proposed.

Thanks! I looked up the IntraChange game site after forwarding the History
post here; it all looks horribly complicated and mathematical to me!
Whereas your games (I scanned through the example games and boards on your
site over the weekend) give me a sense of a kind of accessible poetry, in
fact remind me somewhat of the Japanese renga concept of collective
poetry-making, maybe you're aware of it.


>But pray tell whence this synchronicity arises...

Not meaning to be awkward, but from whence does any synchronicity arise?
(morphogenetic fields and attractors seem rather appealing on a poetic
level)


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:37:25 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998061522425218@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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>>I think you're finding/defining your presence here rather well.. in a
>>flowing, organic, breathing kind of way, as I sense it... The dance of
>>closeness and distance, perhaps.
>>
>>What about your own moving to and from?
>-----
>N: Oh, you bet, Simon.  For example I felt myself withdrawing ever so
>slightly from "...I...think...nicely."   Why?  I like but don't entirely
>trust compliments.  Why?  Because if one can 'judge' something 'good' in
>me they are equally priveleged to judge something 'bad' in me.  Nothing
>really new about this.  Just though I'd specify.
>  Perhaps your inner sensing of that was why you immediately went a little
>vague in:  " I know for me I have a changing
>>sense of closeness to and distance from the list, kind of like breathing it
>>in and out... Same goes for the Internet as a whole... Less suffocating if
>>I don't have to hold my breath."

I know I can be very precise (as with Walter recently!), or I can be what
you call 'vague' (!), which for me is just a different (more
intuitive/poetic) kind of relating. I'd say generally I respond to people
as I find them - but sometimes I go the opposite way! I think you're right,
though. A compliment is like a gentle touch, and some people are sensitive
about touch. I find in everyday life I'm very aware of the body language
that people give off about that; maybe there's an equivalent for the psyche
in psyberspace?! As for my 'vague' words, your post had put me in touch (!)
with that breathing awareness in me, and I wanted to share it with you. No
deep insight, just a resonance with your words, and a way of saying "It's
okay."

>N:  I feel you as a friendly presence 'here', Simon.
>
>      Nnancy

Compliment duly breathed in! Now you can judge the bad in me as well (oh
dear, why did I say that... ;) )


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:56:16 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
In-Reply-To:  <19980616031123.HWOP1409@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Hi Simon,
>
>I grew up both a Marmite and a Vegemite baby - and have a cfriend in
>Australia
>who still sends me Vegemite. Marmite is sometimes sold here in the US, and
>can be bought in Canada. Lovely on warm toast with the butter warm and a
>little runny. :) I also put it on sandwiches with meat fillings...or just
>lettuce and tomato.
>
>Marmalade - yes - especially when it's very tart.  Blackcurrent and
>raspberry.
>
>Saudades...homesickness...
>
>Julienne

Okay, Julienne, maybe I shouldn't have started this Marmite thing, eh?? I
can't help it though... Did you ever have Marmite soldiers? Personally I
never liked those regimented strips of bread...


ah, saudade... puts me in mind straightaway of Brazil and that wonderful
sensuous music of life...

I recalled mention of saudade on another list a while back, and Eudora's
good old Find function soon tracked it down - so I reproduce it here for no
particular reason other than, well, it just feels right...

>"...the country but even more the song by that name, the samba song, and
>more than that the feeling that I know only from listening to the music
>and reading books, the feeling that I am told is called SAUDADE...
>MILTON, you told us about Silvio Caldas who sang with Carmen Miranda
>(whose persona or even just whose name actually put me in Brazil).  What
>is SAUDADE? and does it travel well or ill?"
>
>- Saudade does not travel, it is precisely what stays, left behind. The
>traveler who has saudades says "I'm not sad, I'm ill". It's like mumps
>(positive, more or less...)


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:58:22 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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Subject:      Re: Truth
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John:
> >Have enjoyed your discussion immensely!  My question:  Do we live indifferent
> >realities or is it just our perception of reality that differs?

Joanne:
> There's no way to tell, I think.  Most likely it's different
> perceptions, but human nature suggests we act as if it were different
> realities.

I have enjoyed it too in a recent rapid read.  This question John
asks is the one on my mind too ...  In an earlier post  JoAnne
you answered Hoons question affirmatively:

> >Are there things anywhere else aside or separate from the 'physical world'
> >and the things in it?
>
> The emotional world.

Made me think ...  I wanted to add  other experiential modes ...
thought, dreams, imagination.  My way of putting it then would be
that we live in the same reality, but that we have unique inner
experience.  Also that our perception of the world comes to us
via that inner reality, which colours it.

Yet i think there are ways of getting through to each other ...
ways of sharing our diverse perceptions.  I know most of the time
it seems like we are in different realities, hence it is a
difficult thing.  Dialogue in the way it has been mentioned here
is about that ... in psychodrama it is role reversal, stepping
into the other's shoes.  Moreno spoke of plucking out the other's
eyes and seeing the world through them.  I - though, which Robert
mentions is in that direction.

Ah ... I think that but feel weary.  It is late ... there are
still more posts to read ... and I do not enjoy that at present,
I am almost afraid to click on them to open them up!


Walter







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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:21:42 -0500
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John's question ,

"My question:  Do we live in different realities or is it just our
perception of reality that differs?"

Walter wonders in response,
>
>Made me think ...  I wanted to add  other experiential modes ...
>thought, dreams, imagination.  My way of putting it then would be
>that we live in the same reality, but that we have unique inner
>experience.  Also that our perception of the world comes to us
>via that inner reality, which colours it.

I'm an agnostic on these matters, generally, but on good days I'll wake up,
roll over, fall on the floor, stand up, shake my self out, tossle my own
hair, stumble down the hallway to the bathroom, feel about for the seat...

and in a moment of peace be comfortable with facing another day of groping
through the reality which I share with no one.

On other days, which start similarly, it's more or less the dream
fulfillment: my reality and the reality of all others is shared, as
different as they may be.

***

Much paring away goes on to insure my instrument and your's obtains the
identical data.

***

up for several hours already,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:08:00 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sandwiches & Ants.
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Dolores, Nancy, all,

Dolores, you like puzzles, heh? The 'ant problem' is hard, I confess. In
fact, hard enough to fruitfully approach, let alone find the answers which
follow upon one another.

Nancy gets close to answer #2 quite readily, perhaps sparked by your
commentary, Dolores. (Teamwork, yes? enough to skip answer #1?!)

>>Why *do* ants march around salt?
>
>It's big.
>
>Can ants sing? Or what music do they make?
>
>Ch-ants, or maybe the national ants-em.
>
>Sorry 'bout that. I wanted to get in before anyone else did.
>
>And some of them are c-ant-ors,
>and some c-ant sing at all. :)
>
>p.p.S I gave some thought to the ant thing, they might walk round a pile
>of salt, but if it was a pile of sugar, it'd be an entirely different
>story, anyway I still don't get it.
>
>N: Architypal feminine...salt of the earth...crystal.....no mind
>ant....salt would burn an ant, I should think. ------

***

Answer #1 is: "We cannot answer this question if we are not ants." So my
hint: 'think like an ant' bridges answers #1 and #2. "From the ant's point
of view, the ant will not willingly walk through salt." Or, They have no
will to march through the salt.

A short reconfiguration from 'it might burn them,' (also raising the image
of *the moth and the flame*,) since salt certainly would burn the ant,
suggests what the will of the ant might be.

***

(For the curious.) Each level of the question is approached by a specific
process, so the learning which takes place must be lived through the
processes which 'unlocks' each level of answer. In this example, step one
is to deliteralize the question enough to understand what its working
assumption is. The process is: detachment. Failure to make this
'disconnect' is shown by an inability to sort out the working assumption,
(simply enough: but we aren't ants; only an ant would be able to answer
this question.)

Detachment leads, rightly enough, to the process of *identification*. Makes
sense, doesn't it? We aren't in a very good position to take our familiar
point of view into an identification with another point of view unless
we've managed somehow to loosen our strong bond to our own point of view.

It is odd that we might sense the question has something to do with the
'salt' posing a danger to the ants, (it seems obvious,) but will not say so
until we've loosened from our 'human' point of view. Oft times the question
will be taken as a trick and the obvious recedes! Yet, the point of
decoding the first level of answer is to have the learning experience of
detachment which allows one to *not miss the obvious*.

No hints for answer number #3; puzzle fans should know enough, already.

***

one day an ant, the next day an ass,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:58:12 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks

Goodmorning, Simon.  And it is a fine one here in Georgia.  Cooled by last night's
storm.  Lots of tree stuff to sweep as Bear and I come in after his walk.

On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:37:25 +0100, Simon G. Trask  wrote:

>>>I think you're finding/defining your presence here rather well.. in a
>>>flowing, organic, breathing kind of way, as I sense it... The dance of
>>>closeness and distance, perhaps.
----
N: You know....I'm glad you present this to me for reexamination.  It may be that another 'cookie' zapped in when I read your post yesterday.  I am and have always been rather an anglophile.  Yet once an English couple in the US invited
us to their home for dinner and bridge.  Something happened with the husband and I so that he began ignoring everything I said and not making eye contact.  I
felt ...shunned.  It was a very unpleasant evening.
  A small hurt....from long ago....now healing as we touch/regard it......between us, you and I.....
  I think that inadvertently I passed his dues on to you these many years later.  You didn't deserve it.  It is a lovely compliment.  ..flowing, organic, breathing...is how I think of myself as a P making decisions...even those so small as how to turn a phrase so as to be hold with my own true and still arrive gently enough at anothers eye, so that they can preceive my meaning.
------->>>
>>>What about your own moving to and from?
>>-----
>>N: Oh, you bet, Simon.  For example I felt myself withdrawing ever so
>>slightly from "...I...think...nicely."   Why?  I like but don't entirely
>>trust compliments.  Why?  Because if one can 'judge' something 'good' in
>>me they are equally priveleged to judge something 'bad' in me.  Nothing
>>really new about this.  Just though I'd specify.
>>  Perhaps your inner sensing of that was why you immediately went a little
>>vague in:  " I know for me I have a changing
>>>sense of closeness to and distance from the list, kind of like breathing it
>>>in and out... Same goes for the Internet as a whole... Less suffocating if
>>>I don't have to hold my breath."
>
>I know I can be very precise (as with Walter recently!), {*N*:yes, I liked that.  It came right after and coincided with my dream) or I can be what
>you call 'vague' (!),  (*N*: Oh, dear.  Bear brought home a wiff of skunk yesterday!  I had a teacher who used to scrawl VAGUE all over my in-class
english essay test responses.  Make me come to grips with this intuitive tendency.)  which for me is just a different (more
>intuitive/poetic) kind of relating. I'd say generally I respond to people
>as I find them - but sometimes I go the opposite way! I think you're right,
>though. A compliment is like a gentle touch, and some people are sensitive
>about touch.(Particular perhaps.  Double check to see if touch and intent coincide in gentleness.)  I find in everyday life I'm very aware of the body language
>that people give off about that; maybe there's an equivalent for the psyche
>in psyberspace?! As for my 'vague' words, your post had put me in touch (!)
>with that breathing awareness in me, and I wanted to share it with you.(*N* thank you.)  No
>deep insight, just a resonance with your words, and a way of saying "It's
>okay."
----
N: I feel it deeply.
>
>>N:  I feel you as a friendly presence 'here', Simon.
>>
>>      Nnancy
>
>Compliment duly breathed in! Now you can judge the bad in me as well (oh
>dear, why did I say that... ;) )



Simon
-----
N: I guess we must face it.  We do judge this and that about in and around others.
    Thank you for having me for tea, Simon.  I've enjoyed it.  The apricot
marmalade and cheddar tosted upon the crunchy bread were delicious.  You did
them to a turn there at the fender.  I hope we may do it again.

              nanAcy
>
>
>Simon
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:32:18 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Sandwiches & Ants.

On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:08:00 -0500, sc  wrote:

>Dolores, Nancy, all,
>
>Dolores, you like puzzles, heh? The 'ant problem' is hard, I confess. In
>fact, hard enough to fruitfully approach, let alone find the answers which
>follow upon one another.
>
>Nancy gets close to answer #2 quite readily, perhaps sparked by your
>commentary, Dolores. (Teamwork, yes? enough to skip answer #1?!)
>-----
N:{ I think so....}
-----
>>>Why *do* ants
            march around salt?
>>              It's big.
>>
>>Can ants sing? Or what music do they make?
>>
>>N: Architypal feminine...salt of the earth...crystal.....no mind
>>ant....salt would burn an ant, I should think. ------
>
>***
N: there is an ant mind/nature in each of us.  That is why we stay in line.  The lump of salt and its incipient burn in our minds, seems less when we are together.
The dark night of our most individual being can be a lonely place.

HooN



               go in grace
            .but not too far
                  alone

                Nnancy
>***
>

>
>HooN
>
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:35:29 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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Nancy

You wrote:
>  I am taking a risk in offering.....  more than on doing....
>  If you or other wish me to proceed, I would ask of you, Walter, that
>  if you respond, when you respond, that you respond souly ...(neat!
>  That said it better than I could) ...solely as intelligent, feeling
>  co-particip.

And later:
> just checked the spelling typing parcip.....I guess I want Walter to stay on a 'par'
> with others as much as possible and not to revert to a transactional 'parent' any
> more than absolutely necessary.

> PS I'm sorta waiting on Walter on the dream...may not....hmmm.  Guess we'll see.

Of course i want to be soulful and on a par ... I will give it my
best shot.  I look forward to your dream, and have respect for

Do you see me as being parental?  How do i do this?  When would
it be necessary at all for me to be "parent".  In the
transactional sense I'd prefer to be "adult"!


walter



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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:38:39 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: intentions of dialogue
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Simon,

I just lost my detailed response to your post.  The battery went
and crashed the system, very unusual.  I'll re do it next
opportunity.  I hate it when that happens.  Not my intention!

Walter


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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:02:52 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation

Juliene, I can't see you in such pain and say nothing.
  You remind me of an incident when one of my daughters was two.  She had a very bad earache.  As I held her with my left arm so that I could dial the doctor with my right, she beat upon my shoulder blindly.  She struck out at me because
 to her two-year-old mind I was the archetypal Mother, with the power to instantly
make her feel ease or disease.
  Yet there was nothing I could do except hold and rock her until the doctor called in a prescription, the pharmacy delivered it and it had time to bring her comfort.
  The doctor, pharmacy and mother are all in you, Julienne (as they are in JoAnne and each of us)
  Bide with us a wee and give them time to act.
  And as you bide, do take the Myers Briggs test.
          Nnancy (mother of a mother)
-------

On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:58:05 -0400, Julienne  wrote:

>At 12:20 AM 6/16/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>Julienne,
>>
>>I don't understand.  I hear so much gentleness in your words ...

>Robert,
>


Julienne:>You have made me think.
>
>Your words seem filled with so much rage and hatred
>towards me. I feel that if you feel that way, others must too
>.
>I have not seen you get this angry at JoAnne, and I have not
>seen Walter get as angry as JoAnne as at me.
>
>Although I keep hearing denials, I don't think anyone is
>really paying attention to what is happening here. You
>want me to be nice all the time, despite whatever happens,
>whatever is said. Two of my friends tonight said that this
>is making me sick, and that I should unsubscribe from
>this list. I didn't even consider what they said - because I
>felt that the game might help.
>
>But I have felt so sick on this list. I feel on the defensive
>all the time. It doesn't matter what JoAnne says about
>me, she is hardly called on it. And yet I am told by several
>of you that I can't see myself, that I am just not nice to
>JoAnne. I feel as though I have to defend myself for
>being raped. I am sure you think I am exaggerating, but
>my friends who have been there when I have been through
>these experiences with JoAnne, don't.
>
>Enough of you have made it clear that you don't really
>care what actually happened - you just don't want to
>hear about it. Well...I don't understand that. I think what
>happened does count. I came on this list, and JoAnne
>attacked me - and you all let it happen. It still goes on -
>and still you let it happen and get angry with me rather than
>JoAnne. Today she says she is being sarcastic, and she
>is enjoying taking people from my list - but I am the one
>you are angry at.
>
>Well, I think I have to think about this. To see such anger
>and rage coming at me is horrifying. I know I don't deserve it.
>And I know that I can't keep this up at this rate. I thought
>this might be an opportunity for me to learn to fight back
>when attacked, but I am not so sure. It hasn't been my
>way in the past. It wasn't my way on my list - but JoAnne
>came along and over half the list left because I wouldn't
>unsubscribe her. Well, maybe I should have. And maybe
>I should unsubscribe myself from here as well. I don't
>think this is a healthy place for me - and hasn't been from
>the first day you decided it was all right for JoAnne and
>Wilbur to hurt me so.
>
>I think, from the tone of your post, that there may be little
>point to the glass bead game. Why is it me you yell at? Is
>it perhaps that I am less scary than JoAnne? Maybe
>that's something to think about.
>
>About two weeks ago I decided not to engage JoAnne
>in any more discussions, but I went ahead, despite my
>misgivings, because Walter talked about wanting closure,
>and because I thought maybe I was just afraid of dealing
>with people like JoAnne.  I now think I made a mistake,
>and should have said nothing, despite her goading.
>No good has come of it - and I don't think any good
>can come of it now. If your reaction is any measure of
>this list, then it is not worth it to me to attempt any
>understanding or reconciliation. It might be an
>exercise to all of you, but I seem to be the pawn in
>the game.
>
>If the glass bead game is a matter of "being in the ring",
>as you put it  Robert, then it is not a game, but something
>meant to injure someone, and I do not want to be part of
>something which is supposed to be a game, but is apparently,
>from your reference, Robert, something much meaner.
>
>Do you really believe that the person raped asks for it?
>Or the person murdered? Or the person hurt? I think
>people need to take responsibility for their actions, and not
>blame the person they damage.
>
>I am going to go and think. But I think I am going  to
>conclude that this is enough - it is time to withdraw
>myself from the effort I have been trying to make to
>come to terms with my experience on this list. Maybe
>there are no more terms...maybe it's all done - and
>maybe I don't have to put myself through it any more.
>
>I have no intention of taking your list away from you,
>Robert.
>
>Julienne
>
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>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:30:47 -0500
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Julienne,

I'd like to speak for just my very own self and make a few comments in
response to your reply to Robert this morning. My intention is to give you
a solid idea of what HooN thinks about these matters, especially what he
thinks about you, and also especially what he thinks about some of your
working assumptions. I do this to also extricate my self from the
collective 'other', which you characterized like this today: "I don't think
anyone is really paying attention to what is happening here."

I cannot speak for anyone else here, but, I am trying to pay attention.

***

Julienne, my single wish is to experience your being here as fully and as
non-judgementally, and without the infection of my prejudice or anxiety as
much as is possible for self-absorbed HooN. This is also my wish with
regard to JoAnne. (But, this is my response to you!) You have a great
*bigness* and intensity (Judith called it *passion*) which is, to me,
attractive.

(JoAnne gives me less of a handle. I'm ENFP with the only closeness of
score being between F&T.) So, as it is toward most people for which I see a
similarity, I tend to identify some of my self in them. A projection, yes,
but an owned one.

Julienne, I see ways in which we are similar. I'm going to take a leap and
suggest to you that others here might also see ways in which they are
similar to you.

***

>I have not seen you get this angry at JoAnne, and I have not
>seen Walter get as angry as JoAnne as at me.

Speaking for HooN, I think you are correct in your perception, but I also
feel the *ledgered account of anger* is not a very helpful way to look at
it. What possible insight might come from this, Julienne? Add it up and
eventually the balance is tipped one way or the other. But, "life isn't
fair" is not a big insight, is it?

Heck, life is hard! It's ledger is a mess! I sense your very strong
experience of the unfairness of how it is Walter and others have treated
you. It must feel terrible.

Yet, from the HooN POV, here on Psyber-L I also sense people struggling to
treat each other with whatever consciousness is available to them and that
goes for Walter's choices about how to interact with you. I know it doesn't
feel that way! And I know the bare evidence of specific interactions may be
interpreted as *nothing but this or that* but, what I observe, is Walter
trying very hard to interact with you consciously. It's complicated to me,
because in my own experience, I have learned that when I feel mistreated, a
lot more is going on than 'mistreatment' in most cases, and I might miss it
if I've reduced my experience to the "nothing but,"  case.

That's just me. Not an excuse for allowing my self to be mistreated either,
but, as I've managed to gain a more complex view of the way people interact
with me, enrichened it so-to-speak, I've also gained the advantage of not
experiencing mistreatment anywehere near as much as I used to experience it.

***

The dialogue with JoAnne also strikes me as much richer than what either of
you choose to "say about each other". Yet, at other times it is tiresome.
No wish to assign blame either: it seems to occur automatically at these
times...a ping pong game in which every ball is returned ad infinitum.

***

Julienne, I think this an unrealistic expectation to hold of HooN:

"what JoAnne says about me, she is hardly called on it."

Why? I speak for my self: the actual facts of history and assertion in your
interaction with JoAnne I have no interest in sorting out for *my own sake*.

I suppose I could "weigh the sides" and make determinations about who is
right, who is wrong, what actually happened in the past, and speculate how
it is both *sides* might get what they want for every microscopic case.
But, the key for HooN here is the "for my own sake".

For HooN is not interested in either reaching a judgement as to greater
culpability in this running back-and-forth, (battle?) or figuring out how
to keep the ledger account balanced on which his responses to you two,
Julienne, and JoAnne, are recorded. I've tossed out the ledger book, for my
own sake!

I'm rooting for you both! I'm rooting for me, above all!

***

I respond to you *more* because we are more similar than I am similar with
JoAnne. In this regard, I make more deposits on your side of the ledger, as
far as my invested time and feeling is 'spent'.

***

>I feel as though I have to defend myself for
>being raped.

If you feel raped, it must feel horrible.

I can't call others to account on this, because I have not chosen to
develop a singular sense or make the determinations which would allow me to
state "Julienne has been raped." I'm sorry knowing this is not helpful, is
'cold comfort' but I'm being truthful.

***

>Enough of you have made it clear that you don't really
>care what actually happened - you just don't want to
>hear about it.

For HooN, the truth is: I don't care to know what actually happened because
I understand for my own sake, I *cannot know* what actually happened. By my
own disposition, I wear my own horrific history well. In other words, shit
happens and rectification for it strikes me as unlikely. That's just me.
You and I are not similar in this respect it seems.

On the other hand, I've read the entirety of your and JoAnne's posts. I'm
not saying I want to hear about it, and I assure you I don't read the posts
with any intention to sort out differences and claims, but, in some way I
do care.

I definately don't care in any other way other than the way HooN is able to
care, which is to be there, engaged. Many times in my life this hasn't
proved to be very satisfactory for *all parties* but for HooN, it's how I
choose to care. Inadequate perhaps, but rarely *uncaring*.

***

>and still you let it happen and get angry with me rather than
>JoAnne.

I'm not angry with you. If JoAnne is going to treat you a certain way, I,
speaking for HooN, will tend to let it happen. I am not a very protective
person. (Childless!) I don't beat myself up for this inadequacy. But, if
you expect me to intervene when JoAnne acts badly toward you, your
expectation as far as it applies to me, is unrealistic.

By the way, when JoAnne called you an asshole, I didn't for a minute
succumb to thinking "that settles it, she must be an asshole," instead I
thought privately to my self, "Wow, what an embarrassing outburst of
JoAnne's."

As I've said, I'm not going to intervene and call JoAnne to account in
regard to your history and interaction. That's just who I am: not
protective or likely to take one side or the other, and not at all willing
to keep a ledger. This doesn't mean I don't like you, Julienne! It just
means I'm not much help to your cause, or JoAnne's. I'm more sympathetic to
you in your fullness, (of which I know only a little, right?) than I am to
JoAnne because you and I are more alike.

***

(Yet, even if I'm mostly unprotective, that doesn't mean [speculation
follows:] I'm also the self-centered evil father who revels in being
powerless because it so causes people I purport to love, to be abused,
raped and treated badly while guaranteeing that there entire life is
organized around my satisfaction. But, I cannot force you to draw this
distinction about HooN. Please see me as not much help, but also caring.
I'm trying to *be me* here. )

Anyway, I won't protect either you or JoAnne but I'm not evil because of
it, either. I have great wellsprings I offer to you both...

but you may have to think like an ant to sip of their water. <g : HooN
falls out of chair and knocks over waste basket; monitor precariously
balanced starts to sway back and forth; 'will it fall off table?'; it calms
down...all is all right.>

***

Julienne, you wrote,

>
>Well, I think I have to think about this. To see such anger
>and rage coming at me is horrifying. I know I don't deserve it.

Listen. Maybe this is what the game is about.

*You don't deserve such anger and rage coming at you.*

not here, not anywhere.

not now,

not *in the past*

not ever.

not from strangers,

not from enemies,

not from seeming friends,

not from family.

***

My admission: there was a time when I wished so intensely, so hard, that
everything coming at me from the outside would be just a *little* bit more
fair, a little bit less hostile, and that I would be protected, if not
everytime, at least once! I wished for a little because it was hopeless to
wish for more. But nobody did step up to protect me.

Anger and rage...

I don't deserve it! I rebuke it.

My heart defends me.

***

my hand is out to yours Julienne,

HooN

ps - I have a partner who has a thirteen year old son. (Do I 'rent' him?) I
love him and I try to be a good 'father' to him.

I even let him use the fast computer.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:44:20 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sandwiches & Ants.
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Nancy,

Okay. So, it isn't so difficult. Ants know *only* to stay in line.

When you be so clearly, (?cut me some slack if that is presumptuous,):

"The lump of salt and its incipient burn in our minds, seems less when we
are together. The dark night of our most individual being can be a lonely
place."

>               go in grace
>            .but not too far
>                  alone
>

You've turned the tried and true puzzle into a puzzle for me, something
like a miniature GBG in that your connection is something I will work with,
feel compelled to!

"its incipient burn in our minds, seems less when we are together"

Wow, so beautiful! A real puzzle, and the puzzle, much better for it.

***

thanks,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:45:23 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominy attacks

On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:35:29 GMT, Walter Logeman  wrote:

>Nancy
>
>You wrote:
>>  I am taking a risk in offering.....  more than actually posting the dream.
>>  If you or other wish me to proceed, I would ask of you, Walter, that
>>  if you respond, when you respond, that you respond souly ...(neat!
>>  That said it better than I could) ...solely as intelligent, feeling
>>  co-particip.
>
>And later:
>> just checked the spelling typing parcip.....I guess I want Walter to stay on a 'par'
>> with others as much as possible and not to revert to a transactional 'parent' any
>> more than absolutely necessary.
>
>> PS I'm sorta waiting on Walter on the dream...may not....hmmm.  Guess we'll see.
>
>Of course i want to be soulful and on a par ... I will give it my
>best shot.  I look forward to your dream, and have respect for [it?]
>
>Do you see me as being parental?  How do i do this?  When would
>it be necessary at all for me to be "parent".  In the
>transactional sense I'd prefer to be "adult"!

walter

--------
N: To my way of thinking no adult has authority over another save when both agree that it is so.   I sorta take your point...sorta....And yet it seems to me that when one adult resorts to a mode of speech which would remind almost anyone of an authority role,  such as teacher, boss, policeman...yes, even therapist (too often the case), then the speaker may be said to have revered to a 'parent' mode.
  It has to do with the 'fit' between we 'here' as speakers and you 'here' as responder.  And may have to do with how easily each of us weums may be shaken  from our 'adult' positions into our 'child' position.  Harris, of course, oversimplified for the sake of clarity.
  Some of this parent/child/adult conversion takes place in the 'interactive field'
between us.  Still by being soulful with leavin perhaps the adult can bend a knee
to come f2f with the child or the child hop on a chair to f2f the adaptible parent.

By the way:  dusty miller "is a plant of the genera Artemisia, Centaurea, Chrysanthemum, Lychnis and Senecio, having leaves and stems covered with dustlike down.
  I used to identify a good bit with Iphigenia.  There may have been a tad of that
in my unconsious when I bounced in Tigger-like onto the list.  Then you admonished me in a way that drove me hence for almost a month.  When I returned I did so encapsulated safely in haiku form.  So much has to do which where each was/is at, at the time, Doesn't it?

  I will try to post the dream today.  My server keeps booting me off when I am in possess.  It is always touch and go whether I can clamber (child) back on without losing the post.  I suspect my citings will not be adequate, but will be glad to assist any who ask in tracing down stay posts.

  Yah, know.....I believe it could be you staying in your 'adult' all the time that's causing me (and others?) a problem.  Is it necassy, I wonder.  I greatly admire
Joseph Wheelwright.  He has said that he like to let his puer have his say.  This
is, of course, far different from possession.  I, too, find it useful in relating, to let many of my complexes (on a loose leash) have their say.

  Well, enuf.....back to the list to catch up, then on to the dream.

       Nnancy (hoping weights have lightened for you a little.  Fear is no fun.  Guess 'apprehension' is more accurate?)
>
>
>walter
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:13:23 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: intentions of dialogue (was: Re: Simon,
              Julienne / Re: [P] GBG: hold your horses
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Simon,

I was lurking ;-) in your conversation with Walter and at the end you wrote
and God forgive me for snipping (grin) anyway...she says spontaneously...

<An interesting question at this point might be (to get back to the
'intention' in the title of this thread!): is intention best served by
spontaneity or deliberation?

Simon>

This is causing me to think...thunder rolling in the heavens as
accompanment... interestingly I wonder spontaneous or deliberate intention
of the universe wanting to get my attention...anyway she says again...

My spontaneous wonder is: Intention is set in a context if we could make
that assumption...so at the outset of setting, intention could be
spontaneous or deliberate or andboth...if we use this space as the context
the more information created in the space, then I would conclude as a
possibility...the more spontaneity is informed which could mean it moves to
deliberation thru the emergence of connections becoming denser...which is
also to say in the early on stages of a conversation spontaneity might
bring notions from the edges which might be filtered out thru deliberation
but might allow for the unseen to poke itself into the space...informing
the intention

Just a bit of spontaneity before I go deliberate while I make paper...

Great question! Many layers... Many thanks...

Judith as the thunder rolls intentionally

PS remembering my 5th grade new friend's love of cannned pear, mayonnase
and mustard sandwiches...nearly shortcircuited a budding friendship...but I
attributed this strangeness as something she brought from that other
country, The South...:-)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:23:41 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Keirsey test
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Just took the test, twice as I wanted to choose both in some instances.
Both times I came up INFP.  Dominant areas first time N&P with no
opposing balance at all (100$).  The second time N still remained 100%
and I increased in weighting and P dropped closer to a balanceed state.

I've taken this test several times over a number of years and have
always registered as an INFP.  Somebody find a good cave for me to live
in, preferably not to high on a mountain as I do have this irrational
fear of heights, a fear that has nothing at all to do with the fact that
I have twice gone over cliffs: once hanging on to a bush until I was
rescued (I was a child then); and when I rode over a small cliff while
riding on a bicycle which led to my being hospitalised for two weeks (I
had just been married two weeks ... showing off???).

Robert (delaying response to serious posts)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:31:21 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Ad hominem attacks
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At 11:56 AM 6/16/98 +0100, Simon wrote:
>>Hi Simon,
>>
>>I grew up both a Marmite and a Vegemite baby - and have a friend in
>>Australia
>>who still sends me Vegemite. Marmite is sometimes sold here in the US, and
>>can be bought in Canada. Lovely on warm toast with the butter warm and a
>>little runny. :) I also put it on sandwiches with meat fillings...or just
>>lettuce and tomato.

>>Marmalade - yes - especially when it's very tart.  Blackcurrent and
>>raspberry.

>>Saudades...homesickness...
>>
>>Julienne
>
>Okay, Julienne, maybe I shouldn't have started this Marmite thing, eh?? I
>can't help it though... Did you ever have Marmite soldiers? Personally I
>never liked those regimented strips of bread...

Yes! Never heard them called that - but your description puts them in
sight. :)
And cucumber on top of them too...?

>ah, saudade... puts me in mind straightaway of Brazil and that wonderful
>sensuous music of life...

Lived there a year...:)

>I recalled mention of saudade on another list a while back, and Eudora's
>good old Find function soon tracked it down - so I reproduce it here for no
>particular reason other than, well, it just feels right...

Saudades means sad memories, or homesickness. I never heard of anyone
having just one saudade - but maybe... ?

>>"...the country but even more the song by that name, the samba song, and
>>more than that the feeling that I know only from listening to the music
>>and reading books, the feeling that I am told is called SAUDADE...
>>MILTON, you told us about Silvio Caldas who sang with Carmen Miranda
>>(whose persona or even just whose name actually put me in Brazil).  What
>>is SAUDADE? and does it travel well or ill?"
>>
>>- Saudade does not travel, it is precisely what stays, left behind. The
>>traveler who has saudades says "I'm not sad, I'm ill". It's like mumps
>>(positive, more or less...)

Yes - like a memory kick in the stomach - a yearning and longing.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:31:41 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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Julienne, all:

I'd like to clarify a few points about "the game" as such, and the possible
outcomes of playing it in a context of reconciliation, before getting to
the meat of your post, Julienne.

*

About the game, then, as it exists outside of the context of its potential
use as a tool for "conflict resolution":

It is simple enough to respond to your remark today:

> If the glass bead game is a matter of "being in the ring", as you
> put it  Robert, then it is not a game, but something meant to
> injure someone, and I do not want to be part of something which
> is supposed to be a game, but is apparently, from your reference,
> Robert, something much meaner.

by quoting, say, Simon's remark today, after taking a look at my website:

> your games (I scanned through the example games and boards on
> your site over the weekend) give me a sense of a kind of
> accessible poetry, in fact remind me somewhat of the Japanese
> renga concept of collective poetry-making

or even Hoon's description of the games as someone who has played them:

> the depth of the game concerns not only the connections of ideas
> and feelings but the intimation of even deeper connections which
> give the players a direct sip of each other's goodness and
> nobility; the *miraculous* counsel of self encountering self...

It seems pretty clear to me that neither one of these comments is about
"something which  is supposed to be a game, but is apparently ... something
much meaner".

I don't think there's any guarantee that playing one of my games will
always lead to the players experiencing Hoon's "direct sip of each other's
goodness and nobility", nor that the outcome will always be "accessible
poetry" -- but the games are not inherently mean, and I think Hoon's and
Simon's words are enough to demonstrate that at times they in fact touch on
some of the nobler human possibilities.

But saying all that serves only to clarify one small though perhaps crucial
point about the games themselves -- and I think that point was in any case
something of an aside in your post, and not the heart of it.  It seems to
me that your post was addressing your perception of Robert's anger, as
expressed in his post, and the wider sense of "anger and rage" coming at
you from many sides on Psyber-L, and that the games picked up a little
"color in the wash" at a certain point.

As far as the games being inherently mean are concerned, I hope that Hoon's
and Simon's words set your mind at rest.

*

Moving on to the question of the game as something that might be helpful in
conflict resolution in general -- but still not addressing these particular
circumstances in any depth...

You write:

> Two of my friends tonight said that this is making me sick, and
> that I should unsubscribe from this list. I didn't even consider
> what they said - because I felt that the game might help.

and then to Robert:

> I think, from the tone of your post, that there may be little point
> to the glass bead game.

The games may help ... there may be little point to them.

I would have to say that I agree with both possibilities.  I have sometimes
seen the games come together as forms of "collective poetry-making" and
even witnessed players taking "a direct sip of each other's goodness" on
occasion: but it would be naive and foolish in the extreme for me to
suppose that the occasions when the games have a positive outcome *prove*
that they'd have a positive outcome in this case.

That possibility exists, but the larger issue is whether we'd manage to
pull it off this time around, in this specific curcumstance.

I want to leave that question open for the moment.

*

I want to step back, and see what we can gather about "conflict on list"
next -- and then see if *that* tells us anything about the way the games
event should be structured, and even whether it should be attempted at all.

As of now, I'd like to view the games proposal as a possibility that has
been suggested, which both principals have agreed in principle to attempt,
which others have variously indicated they would like to join, or not wish
to -- and the viability and exact nature of which is still under
discussion.

I apologize to anyone who may be wishing for us to "get on with it" -- but
there's something about the three posts from Robert, Julienne and Hoon
today which makes me feel that stepping back at this point is inevitable
and necessary.

More to come...


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:52:28 -0700
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Subject:      online conflict, was Re: [P] GBG:True reconciliation
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Julienne, all:

In an accompanying post, I attempted to clear up a few questions about the
brief mention of games in your recent post.  And that brings us back, it
seems to me, to some of the issues raised in the rest of your post to
Robert, and truly central to it:

> Enough of you have made it clear that you don't really care what
> actually happened - you just don't want to hear about it. Well... I
> don't understand that. I think what happened does count.

> I came on this list, and JoAnne attacked me - and you all let it
> happen. It still goes on - and still you let it happen and get angry
> with me rather than JoAnne. Today she says she is being
> sarcastic, and she is enjoying taking people from my list - but I
> am the one you are angry at.

I've broken that paragraph of yours into two parts, because I wanted to
separate out the general principle from the specific example.

Let's see how far we can go in establishing common ground.

*

Two people joined Psyber-L at about the same time.  This was not their
first encounter: they had met in cyberspace before, and there was already
some animosity between them.  Some of this animosity spilled onto the list.


[ What I'm trying to do here is to search out "the facts" in a form that
anyone who was subscribed to Psyber-L at the time would agree on, and in a
form that doesn't beg the question of "who is principally to blame". ]

As time went by, the two principals between them posted a large number of
posts which at times described what had happened before they came to
Psyber-L.  Their accounts of this pre-history were in conflict.

[ I imagine pretty much everyone could agree thus far ]

Those who were not present at the pre-history could hardly be expected to
unravel it.

[ Here, I suspect, is where we might find the beginnings of some divergence
with the view presented here ]

In addition, many of those who were subscribed to Psyber-L had, for one
reason or another, a dislike of reading posts in which the principals in a
conflict traded accusations.  And new subscribers who had no knowledge of
the original conflict nor of how it had been continued and developed in the
new culture of Psyber-L were joining all the time.

[ How are we doing?  Does this all make sense so far? ]

None of which tells us anything definitive about the "blame" issue here --
either in terms of who "started" it in the pre-history, or in terms of who
"had the rights of it" as the conflict developed.  What was clear to all
was that there was a conflict, and that it was being carried on on Psyber-L.

*

More generally: in any conflict, there may be an "injured party" and an
"injuring party".  Or there may be two parties each of whom feels aggrieved
for roughly equal reasons.  And it can be far from easy for non-principals
-- or even the principals themselves -- to determine which of these two
kinds of situation is happening on a given occasion.

[ Okay, I think that's as far as I can go in describing the setup in a
manner which pretty much everyone can pretty much agree with: from here on
in, I'm making suggestions ]

It seems to me virtually inevitable that when a two-party conflict with an
uncertain pre-history migrates to a multi-subscriber list and continues
there, some of the list members will feel frustrated.  They may read a
certain number of posts, and then cease to attend to the back and forth.
And they may express their annoyance.

They are liable to address their annoyance either to the party who has
posted the most recent post, or the one who posted something which was, for
that particular reader, "the straw that broke the camel's back", or to the
party they guess (without as we have seen, sufficient evidence to form a
firm conclusion) is "more to blame" -- or to both parties equally.

Others, no less annoyed, perhaps, will keep their annoyance under their
hats.  Others will simply unsubscribe.  And some may simply disattend it
without any particular feeling of annoyance -- "that conflict seems to be
the sort of thing the list was intended to handle and discuss, among other
things, but in this instance it's not the part I'm interested in" -- or
take an interest in the conflict, or even revel in it -- "great, the knives
are out" -- maybe joining in, stirring things up, cheering from the
sidelines.

Given human nature...

Given human nature, some list subscribers are liable to take each of these
options, and both those who post and those who don't are liable to be
perceived by the principals to a greater or lesser extent as taking sides.

Thus we could predict posts from one or other or both principals saying
things like "it was bad enough already, and then you butted in and attacked
me", and "you haven't even posted, you just clammed up" and "you're just
stirring things up, trying to make a bad situation worse", and "you didn't
even bother to read what I said" -- not to mention all the other things we
post when we feel our words have been taken out of context, or that someone
is being too cerebral or not clear enough or too emotional or not feeling
enough... and so on.

Sometimes one or other or both principals may not take either silence or
active posting in this way, may glean something useful from a post here, a
post there, perhaps even have an insight into their own process or the
group process which facilitates the situation, and we can thus expect to
see posts from the principals saying things like "sorry I missed your point
at first, I think you're partly right", or "I appreciate that you feel you
don't know enough to take sides", or  whatever.

I think all of these things have happened at times in this particular
conflict between principals, here on Psyber-L.

And in all this, there's still very little evidence of "who's right, who's
wrong" -- or even whether this is one of those cases where both have a
fairly equal measure of "right" and "wrong" on their side, or one of those
cases where there was a clear initial "offense" on one side, perpetrated
against the other.

In fact the fact that one party may complain more, act more aggrieved, or
strike out more than the other may be the result of their being the
initially aggrieved party, and thus suffering from a genuine grievance in
need of redress and determinedly making it known -- or it may be the result
of their being the original aggressor, and keeping up the attack -- or it
may be nothing more than a matter of that party having more time to write
and send posts to the list.

All of which should ideally be kept in mind by those who are following the
conflict, or annoyed by it, or who think they "know what the score is" --
but all of which is liable to be less than clear to all parties concerned
at all times, with the consequent potential for further muddying of the
waters.

*

Now my analysis of "what can happen when a conflict migrates to a mailing
list" above is intended to bring some clarity into the situation, and in
particular to show that the non-principals can't expect to *know* the
"truth behind the conflict" -- ie whether there is a clear "person to
blame" or a clear "person to be vindicated", or whether it's all one of
those murky situations where both parties have contributed about equally.

I think both Robert and Hoon have expressed this fundamental inability to
know if and where blame might with justice be approptioned in recent posts,
Robert, when he wrote:

> This isn't about picking sides as there is too much history, too
> many words on too many lists that make up the history of this
> aggressive dialogue of defense and attack [...]

and Hoon -- with a somewhat different emphasis -- when he wrote:

> I understand for my own sake, I *cannot know* what actually
> happened.

*

Assuming you -- Julienne, JoAnne, individual Psyber-L subscribers -- are
pretty much with me thus far, we might come to the next question:

How would our understanding at this point apply to the games?

But first, let's see how close we are to having an understanding at all.

It's the *general principles* of online conflict, and what we know about
them, that I'm after here: so I'd request that any and all responses to
this particular post *don't* get into what the principals in this
particular case may feel or believe or know to be the situation, or what
individual subscribers may think or feel about the principals.  Please
limit your responses to how far we can agree on the general analysis
outlined above, without making reference to specific cases, and suggest any
additions, corrections or fine tunings in a *generalized* format similar to
that which I have striven for above.

That's quite a lot to ask, I know.  But unless we can focus the overall
highly charged emotions here down to the point where they fit specific
parameters such as these, I don't think we have much chance at all of being
able to focus them down into the far more stringent requirements of
individual game moves and the game group process.

Best wishes,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:07:58 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: online conflict, was Re: [P] GBG:True reconciliation
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At 12:52 PM 6/16/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>Julienne, all:
>
>In an accompanying post, I attempted to clear up a few questions about the
>brief mention of games in your recent post.  And that brings us back, it
>seems to me, to some of the issues raised in the rest of your post to
>Robert, and truly central to it:
>
>> Enough of you have made it clear that you don't really care what
>> actually happened - you just don't want to hear about it. Well... I
>> don't understand that. I think what happened does count.
>
>> I came on this list, and JoAnne attacked me - and you all let it
>> happen. It still goes on - and still you let it happen and get angry
>> with me rather than JoAnne. Today she says she is being
>> sarcastic, and she is enjoying taking people from my list - but I
>> am the one you are angry at.
>
>I've broken that paragraph of yours into two parts, because I wanted to
>separate out the general principle from the specific example.
>
>Let's see how far we can go in establishing common ground.
>
>Two people joined Psyber-L at about the same time.  This was not their
>first encounter: they had met in cyberspace before, and there was already
>some animosity between them.  Some of this animosity spilled onto the list.

>[ What I'm trying to do here is to search out "the facts" in a form that
>anyone who was subscribed to Psyber-L at the time would agree on, and in a
>form that doesn't beg the question of "who is principally to blame". ]
>
>As time went by, the two principals between them posted a large number of
>posts which at times described what had happened before they came to
>Psyber-L.  Their accounts of this pre-history were in conflict.
>
>[ I imagine pretty much everyone could agree thus far ]
>
>Those who were not present at the pre-history could hardly be expected to
>unravel it.

One piece I would like to put in here is that actually there were three of
us who joined together-
the third was Kris - the third person involved in the previous mess on the
other list. She refuted JoAnne's
description of events, and left this list in disgust when she realized that
JoAnne was going to keep going on abot it.

>[ Here, I suspect, is where we might find the beginnings of some divergence
>with the view presented here ]
>
>In addition, many of those who were subscribed to Psyber-L had, for one
>reason or another, a dislike of reading posts in which the principals in a
>conflict traded accusations.  And new subscribers who had no knowledge of
>the original conflict nor of how it had been continued and developed in the
>new culture of Psyber-L were joining all the time.
>
>[ How are we doing?  Does this all make sense so far? ]

Yes - excellently put, Charles.

>None of which tells us anything definitive about the "blame" issue here --
>either in terms of who "started" it in the pre-history, or in terms of who
>"had the rights of it" as the conflict developed.  What was clear to all
>was that there was a conflict, and that it was being carried on on Psyber-L.
>
>*
>
>More generally: in any conflict, there may be an "injured party" and an
>"injuring party".  Or there may be two parties each of whom feels aggrieved
>for roughly equal reasons.  And it can be far from easy for non-principals
>-- or even the principals themselves -- to determine which of these two
>kinds of situation is happening on a given occasion.
>
>[ Okay, I think that's as far as I can go in describing the setup in a
>manner which pretty much everyone can pretty much agree with: from here on

>in, I'm making suggestions ]
>
>It seems to me virtually inevitable that when a two-party conflict with an
>uncertain pre-history migrates to a multi-subscriber list and continues
>there, some of the list members will feel frustrated.  They may read a
>certain number of posts, and then cease to attend to the back and forth.
>And they may express their annoyance.
>
>They are liable to address their annoyance either to the party who has
>posted the most recent post, or the one who posted something which was, for
>that particular reader, "the straw that broke the camel's back", or to the
>party they guess (without as we have seen, sufficient evidence to form a
>firm conclusion) is "more to blame" -- or to both parties equally.
>
>Others, no less annoyed, perhaps, will keep their annoyance under their
>hats.  Others will simply unsubscribe.  And some may simply disattend it
>without any particular feeling of annoyance -- "that conflict seems to be
>the sort of thing the list was intended to handle and discuss, among other
>things, but in this instance it's not the part I'm interested in" -- or
>take an interest in the conflict, or even revel in it -- "great, the knives
>are out" -- maybe joining in, stirring things up, cheering from the
>sidelines.
>
>Given human nature...
>
>Given human nature, some list subscribers are liable to take each of these
>options, and both those who post and those who don't are liable to be
>perceived by the principals to a greater or lesser extent as taking sides.
>
>Thus we could predict posts from one or other or both principals saying
>things like "it was bad enough already, and then you butted in and attacked
>me", and "you haven't even posted, you just clammed up" and "you're just
>stirring things up, trying to make a bad situation worse", and "you didn't
>even bother to read what I said" -- not to mention all the other things we
>post when we feel our words have been taken out of context, or that someone
>is being too cerebral or not clear enough or too emotional or not feeling
>enough... and so on.
>
>Sometimes one or other or both principals may not take either silence or
>active posting in this way, may glean something useful from a post here, a
>post there, perhaps even have an insight into their own process or the
>group process which facilitates the situation, and we can thus expect to
>see posts from the principals saying things like "sorry I missed your point
>at first, I think you're partly right", or "I appreciate that you feel you
>don't know enough to take sides", or  whatever.
>
>I think all of these things have happened at times in this particular
>conflict between principals, here on Psyber-L.
>
>And in all this, there's still very little evidence of "who's right, who's
>wrong" -- or even whether this is one of those cases where both have a
>fairly equal measure of "right" and "wrong" on their side, or one of those
>cases where there was a clear initial "offense" on one side, perpetrated
>against the other.
>
>In fact the fact that one party may complain more, act more aggrieved, or
>strike out more than the other may be the result of their being the

>initially aggrieved party, and thus suffering from a genuine grievance in
>need of redress and determinedly making it known -- or it may be the result
>of their being the original aggressor, and keeping up the attack -- or it
>may be nothing more than a matter of that party having more time to write
>and send posts to the list.
>
>All of which should ideally be kept in mind by those who are following the
>conflict, or annoyed by it, or who think they "know what the score is" --
>but all of which is liable to be less than clear to all parties concerned
>at all times, with the consequent potential for further muddying of the
>waters.
>
>*
>
>Now my analysis of "what can happen when a conflict migrates to a mailing
>list" above is intended to bring some clarity into the situation, and in
>particular to show that the non-principals can't expect to *know* the
>"truth behind the conflict" -- ie whether there is a clear "person to
>blame" or a clear "person to be vindicated", or whether it's all one of
>those murky situations where both parties have contributed about equally.
>
>I think both Robert and Hoon have expressed this fundamental inability to
>know if and where blame might with justice be approptioned in recent posts,
>Robert, when he wrote:
>
>> This isn't about picking sides as there is too much history, too
>> many words on too many lists that make up the history of this
>> aggressive dialogue of defense and attack [...]
>
>and Hoon -- with a somewhat different emphasis -- when he wrote:
>
>> I understand for my own sake, I *cannot know* what actually
>> happened.
>
>*
>
>Assuming you -- Julienne, JoAnne, individual Psyber-L subscribers -- are
>pretty much with me thus far, we might come to the next question:

The only part which I have to mention is that most of what has gone on between
JoAnne and me has been since we came on this list - not before. Everyone has
been here on this list to see that, and to make judgements if they wanted to.
JoAnne and I only ran a list together for 3 weeks. We've been on here almost
a year, I think.

>How would our understanding at this point apply to the games?
>
>But first, let's see how close we are to having an understanding at all.
>
>It's the *general principles* of online conflict, and what we know about
>them, that I'm after here: so I'd request that any and all responses to
>this particular post *don't* get into what the principals in this
>particular case may feel or believe or know to be the situation, or what
>individual subscribers may think or feel about the principals.  Please
>limit your responses to how far we can agree on the general analysis
>outlined above, without making reference to specific cases, and suggest any
>additions, corrections or fine tunings in a *generalized* format similar to
>that which I have striven for above.

I am not clear what you're asking for.

>That's quite a lot to ask, I know.  But unless we can focus the overall
>highly charged emotions here down to the point where they fit specific
>parameters such as these, I don't think we have much chance at all of being
>able to focus them down into the far more stringent requirements of
>individual game moves and the game group process.

Thanks for trying this, Charles.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:35:29 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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At 11:30 AM 6/16/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>I'd like to speak for just my very own self and make a few comments in
>response to your reply to Robert this morning. My intention is to give you
>a solid idea of what HooN thinks about these matters, especially what he
> >thinks about you, and also especially what he thinks about some of your
>working assumptions. I do this to also extricate my self from the
>collective 'other', which you characterized like this today: "I don't think
>anyone is really paying attention to what is happening here."

Hoon, thank you from the bottom of my heart for what you wrote. I can't
answer now - too emotional, but I will.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:40:06 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sandwiches & Ants.
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On Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:20:48 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 12:39 AM 6/16/98 +0100, Dolores wrote:
>
>>I also had no idea what Ad Hom whatever means..oooo guess I'm dense.
>
>Hi,
>
>An ad hominem attack is an atack against the person
>instead of just the person's ideas.
>
>For example:
>
>I f you said the world was made of green cheese, and I disagreed by saying
>" I doubt - do you have any evidence?" - or some such thing - that would be
>fine.
>
>But if you said, "You think the world's made of green cheese? You're a liar
>and a moron and the stupidest idiot in the world...!" - that would be an ad
>hominem attack - an attack on the person's character.

Ad hominem is strictly logically defined as being an attack on
character instead of the subject at hand.  If the subject at hand is
character, however, then it's not ad hominem.  If we're discussing my
character, and someone claims I'm evil, and says it's because I'm a
liar, and in fact I am a liar, it's not ad hominem.  It's "on-topic"
as it were.

"You're a liar and a cheat" is a generalization, so most of the time
it's going to be ad hominem.  "You lied about XYZ" can be determined
to be true or false, and is not ad hominem.

Perhaps Julienne does not agree.  But I believe an unflattering fact,
relevant to the discussion, is not ad hominem.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:50:31 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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Julienne,

I have to come back to your response to my post and then return to my
original post.  To much doesn't "balance" for me.

> Your words seem filled with so much rage and hatred
> towards me.

No hatred towards you, confused thoughts "yes", projections "yes".
Anger?  That is admitted, but it isn't dumped on you, it is triggered by
your words and there is a great deal of difference.  I see this as more
transference and counter-transference stuff.

> I have not seen you get this angry at JoAnne

This isn't a contest to see who will get angry with who most.  I don't
know either of you here except through my "limited" understanding of the
thoughts being presented here.  There is no blame attached to not being
able to fully understand.  Addressing those areas of non-understanding
is what some of this dialogue is all about (thinking about HooN's and
Simon's recent discussion) here on PSYBER-L.

> seen Walter get as angry as JoAnne as at me.

Walter has become angry with me and I with him.  Anger is not something
so easily banished.  How that anger is dealt with is important in terms
of this list's health (in using the word list I mean the company of
people, I hesitate to use the word community -- Walter).  Anita has
shown a bit af anger towards me ... resolved (I think).  We all have
"triggers" which get activated by something that is found in the words
posted here.  We react to that activation.  There are "hooks" in the
many words posted here.

Admit the anger.  Search for the hooks in order to release the tension
on the triggers.  Resolve the confusion of action/reaction and move on
to other posts with an increased trust in the container and those
contained within it.  That is what has happened here in PSYBER-L.  That
is why I don't want this list to fail, to be denied to me.  This list
can be just as valuable to you.  I don't know anyone here I wouldn't
trust, ANYONE!  Of course, that includes YOU, Julienne.  I don't hate
you.  In fact, if you check the archives, I have responded more to you
than to JoAnne in positive supportive ways, honestly. Why?  It wasn't
because I was angry with JoAnne, it had to do with the pull to reply to
your words.  There is a real "pull".

> Although I keep hearing denials, I don't think anyone is
> really paying attention to what is happening here.

I don't agree.  In fact I see this community as being VERY concerned.
This building of a GBG is proof of that.

> I feel on the defensive all the time.

And I hear that defensiveness ... and I hear more than defensiveness.
But then again, what I am talking about is what "I hear", not
necessarily what "was said".

> I am sure you think I am exaggerating, but
> my friends who have been there when I have been through
> these experiences with JoAnne, don't.

True, we haven't been there.  I haven't been there.  I haven't been
party to those experiences.  And as for all the dispute about who said
what on this list, there is no way to measure the truth or non-truth of
all the words.  As an educator, as a consellor, I know that "truth" is
viewed differently.  I know that given an accident scene with 10
witnesses who saw the "whole thing", it is unlikely to get two stories
that are identical.  And, no one in telling their stories engages in
"lying".  You work with children, you have watched them play their
games.  You know that they don't even hear the same.  Make a statement
(not too simple, but well within their level of comprehension) and then
ask them what was said.  They will not agree amongst themselves and will
more often than not present their "facts" their "truths" about the
statement (I am smiling as I think about the game "telephone" which
younger children play which illustrates this so well).

> Enough of you have made it clear that you don't really
> care what actually happened - you just don't want to
> hear about it.

I think we CARE very deeply.  I/We want to arrive at a resolution to
this.  Sixteen people willing to commit to at least three months of
relatively intense process via the GBG is an incredible showing of
caring.  I would love to be a part of this but as I have already stated,
my own issues are getting and would continue to get in the way.  My life
isn't going so smoothly at the moment.  In two months I will be under
the microscope to see if I am fit to be a teacher, to see if I am still
psychologically defective and as such risking the welfare of my students
(it's been a long time since I've heard from Jim Calder ....).  I care.

> I came on this list, and JoAnne
> attacked me - and you all let it happen.

What do you think I should have done?  What did you really want form
me/others at this time?  Were we supposed to tar and feather JoAnne
because of a conflict in stories?  Was I supposed to say something to
the effect that JoAnne was bad and Julienne was good?  Was I supposed to
counsel "let's not talk to JoAnne because she hurt Julienne"?  Here I
have learned to find a way through the hurt through reflection and
continued dialogue based on trust, trust that was HARD earned and now
prized.

> JoAnne. Today she says she is being sarcastic, and she
> is enjoying taking people from my list - but I am the one
> you are angry at.

I am not talking about JoAnne in my post to you that resulted in this
response.  This is about ME and MY feelings.  JoAnne is not the centre
of all dialogues.  I hear a response to an "other" in process, then
inserted is a reference to that "evil woman, JoAnne", a reference that
jars me, a reference that is out of place as *I understand it*.

> Well, I think I have to think about this. To see such anger
> and rage coming at me is horrifying. I know I don't deserve it.

Is it coming at you, or are you claiming it?  This isn't a criticism,
it's a call to have you look more closely at the dynamics, at the
contextual framework of the words of "others".  No one deserves to be
"target".

>  - but JoAnne
> came along and over half the list left because I wouldn't
> unsubscribe her. Well, maybe I should have. And maybe
> I should unsubscribe myself from here as well.

I just got lost in the transfer of logic from situation one to situation
two. How does what happened on your list translate to you "should
unsubscribe" from PSYBER-L?  This isn't a statement about your words
being logical, but more a statement that because of my "ability" and my
"frame of reference" I didn't catch the meaning that lay behind your
words which might make perfect sense to everyone else thus not needing
them to ask for clarification.  Asking for clarification is not an
attack, it is what it is, asking for clarification.

> I don't think this is a healthy place for me - and hasn't been from
> the first day you decided it was all right for JoAnne and
> Wilbur to hurt me so.

I didn't decide it was any such thing.  No one, as far as I can see,
decided that.  These are your feelings, your perceptions.  Better,
*maybe* would be to ask what we felt, what we perceived than to make
assumptions, than to draw conclusions.  I think that this will be the
real strength of the GBG.

> I think, from the tone of your post, that there may be little
> point to the glass bead game. Why is it me you yell at? Is
> it perhaps that I am less scary than JoAnne?

Again, I am not yelling at you though it may feel that way.  I am not
angry at YOU or hating YOU.  In fact, I feel more inclined to dialogue
with you than some others here ... it's not a competition, nor a
statement of who is "a better person" or "who I won't hang out with".
It is a statement that is what it is.  I find it easier to talk with
you, and more frustrating as well.

> If your reaction is any measure of
> this list, then it is not worth it to me to attempt any
> understanding or reconciliation.

My reaction is my reaction.  There is no "list reaction" no "list
conspiracy". This is a place of many, caring individuals who somehow
found themselves in this place with others and are trying hard to be
here in ways that takes them forward.

> If the glass bead game is a matter of "being in the ring",
> as you put it  Robert, then it is not a game, but something
> meant to injure someone, and I do not want to be part of
> something which is supposed to be a game, but is apparently,
> from your reference, Robert, something much meaner.

I just re-read my words and don't for the life of me know where that
comes from.  I made reference to your expressed notion of maybe
following up having JoAnne as "principal" with another game with Walter
joining you as "principal".  Walter was/is seen as a "threat" and thus
the potential need for a second game.  With a developing dis-ease with
me, I made the leap of logic. To me it appears to be an opportunity for
you to be proven right rather than for everyone to be proven right in
their own manner.  From all the dialogues, I have a hard time
envisioning your willingness to have JoAnne have any "rightness".  Thus,
I see it as *viewed* as a win-lose situation by yourself.

I have been involved in the last GBG and can testify to Charles' words,
if anything, one emerges from the experience loving each and every
person who was part of the process.  That we bared our psyche there and
emerged transformed was the greatest gift for which I could ever thank
Walter and Charles.

> Do you really believe that the person raped asks for it?
> Or the person murdered? Or the person hurt? I think
> people need to take responsibility for their actions, and not
> blame the person they damage.

Julienne, I can't answer these questions as they seem fully out of
context and not part of my experience here.  The question of "hurt" does
have a place here.  I wonder how much you have thought about
"projections" and "hooks", about "transference" and
"counter-transference"?  This is a psychological space, a therapeutic
space, a place of the psyche.  These things are alive and operational
here.  It is necessary to study oneself and one's dialogue with these
concepts every ready for understanding what is happening.  Or, to
question what has happened.

Do I make any sense?  Three responses to your post ... none to mine.
And YOU think/say no one cares about YOU ... I don't want this to be an
issue of taking up one's toys and going home mad at the "other".  You
are not my victim.  I am not your victimizer.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:00:53 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: online conflict, was Re: [P] GBG:True reconciliation
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On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:52:28 -0700, you, Charles Cameron
<hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>, wrote:

>It's the *general principles* of online conflict, and what we know about
>them, that I'm after here: so I'd request that any and all responses to
>this particular post *don't* get into what the principals in this
>particular case may feel or believe or know to be the situation, or what
>individual subscribers may think or feel about the principals.  Please
>limit your responses to how far we can agree on the general analysis
>outlined above, without making reference to specific cases, and suggest any
>additions, corrections or fine tunings in a *generalized* format similar to
>that which I have striven for above.

My only concern is that I don't know that you made enough reference to
people who, observing, reading, taking much if not all of the argument
in, definitely make up their minds about who is who and what is what.
In some sense they are "beachheads" one or the other disputant has
made.  They can be as entrenched in their beliefs about the dispute as
the disputants (perhaps more so).

>That's quite a lot to ask, I know.  But unless we can focus the overall
>highly charged emotions here down to the point where they fit specific
>parameters such as these, I don't think we have much chance at all of being
>able to focus them down into the far more stringent requirements of
>individual game moves and the game group process.

I think it all fits quite well, with my one amendment as stated above.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:16:41 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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Charles quoted HooN and I within a context of reassurance, and concluded:

>As far as the games being inherently mean are concerned, I hope that Hoon's
>and Simon's words set your mind at rest.

Just a quick comment here, Charles. I don't know that my words should count
as reassurance! They were merely offered, within a different context, as a
first impression intuited from scanning through sample games (and
"accessible poetry" offered as a contrast to the IntraChange game, which
seemed like abstruse mathematics to me!). As I have no experience of
playing your games, I have no basis for extrapolating from A (sample
finished games) to B (suggested conflict resolution process).

As you say on your site: "we're not big on the sample games -- because
frankly those are other people's games, not yours..."

The intent of the players and their will to resolution must count for a
lot, surely.


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:57:06 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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Julienne,

I am trying now to return to my post which resulted in your response to
which I have just finished replying:

> I don't understand.  I hear so much gentleness in your words then I hear
> attack.  I sense a blindness and deafness to your issues and your own
> voice.  But, I realise that I am really just speaking about the things
> that I hear and the things that I see.

These words are not about you, or an attack on you.  I carefully used
the words about "my hearing" rather than what "you said".  There is an
ocean of difference.  I am talking about ME not YOU.  Saying that, I
don't want you to think that you don't deserve to be "talked about".
What I am saying is that I am talking about ME to YOU.  That is done
with *trust* and belief that doing so will give me benefit not pain.

> I don't understand why I am reacting to your words as though you were
> attacking so many people ... I'm not offering a diagnosis, but I hear
> echoes of passive-agressive (my mother being echoed?).

Again, I am talking about my reaction and possible roots.  I identify
(not well explained) and name the possible projection.  Your words were
the "hooks" upon which I was drawn into projection ... your words, not
you.  I have not made a single statement about YOU either positive or
negative.  I hope that you can see/hear this.

> It seems at
> times as though if one is not stating categorically that you are right
> and JoAnne is wrong, that you have been again wounded and strike back

Again, this is not a statement of fact but a perception. All perceptions
are just that, perceptions.  I name it as perception "It seems ... as
though ..."

> I can't pick sides.  This isn't about picking sides as there is too much
> history, too many words on too many lists that make up the history of
> this aggressive dialogue of defense and attack and justification and
> one-up-(wo)manship.  I am getting angry that this J&J dialogue seems to
> be going in circles in a vat of acid.  I'm glad that Charles and Walter
> have begun the process of the GBG in hopes of resolving the "impasse".

There is no blaming of "person".  There is a statement about my
"feeling" of discomfort.  I purposely avoided naming a person and
purposely named a process/event so as to avoid *attacking* an
individual's psyche (both yours and JoAnne's).  The acidity of the
dialogues makes my head and heart hurt.

The reference to the GBG is viewed positively with a hopeful positive
outcome. Having "been there", my thanks to these two "gentle" men is
real.

> Somehow, I think that you would want me in the ring with you once you
> have vanquished JoAnne and Walter ... I sense that you do see this as a
> competition.

In my previous post I gave reasons for this.  The words of yours to
Walter are there in the archives.  If I must, I will search for them for
you.  I feel what I feel, I think what I think.  I refuse to deny my
feelings or thoughts. All of my words here speak of my feelings, my
thoughts, my sensations, my understandings.  At no point do I state an
objective or factual "truth".

> I hope that I am wrong, very wrong about everything.  I
> don't handle anger well.  Usually I just "bugger off".

I have the feeling that my previous habit of abandoning a tense
situation is responsible for that added aspect of "commitment" to the
GBG.  I was the one who fled when the kettle got too hot to handle, too
hot for me when my f2f life was also going through its own hell.  Again,
there is no comment about you.  There are statements about my own
failings, my own short-comings.

> This time I am staying.  I will not join in the game as I have too many
> emotions involved at this time in just moving through this part of my life.

This is about me, not about you.  My life off-line precludes my
participation. I am tempted to join, but I am learning to give myself
some real-life consideration.  I want to move forward and thus be better
able to participate here when another GBG opportunity arises.

> I hope that you will forgive me these words as I try to do the same.  I
> don't want any more "she said / she said"
> justifications/incriminations.  This is my list too.

Again, no attack on you.  None in the whole post.  Yet, I sense that you
would feel agreived and thus I beg forgiveness as though speaking my
feelings were somehow something I need to be forgiven for doing.  I
notice that this post and the last post are filled with instances of
needing to affirm over and over that I am speaking of me and not you so
that you do not suffer unduly from my daring to speak my feelings, my
thoughts, my perceptions ... as though to do so is almost to become a
rapist, a murderer, an abuser, a victimizer ...  I do want to feel that
I have a right to speak my feelings without feeling that doing so puts
me into the role of abuser.  I'm not a bad guy.  In fact, I'm nice,
gentle, caring, and even a bit good-looking.  I do have faults and am
working hard at resolving some of them so that I can be even nicer.

Robert - wanting someday to be free to be Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:54:53 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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At 12:20 AM 6/16/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>I don't understand.  I hear so much gentleness in your words then I hear
>attack.  I sense a blindness and deafness to your issues and your own
>voice.  But, I realise that I am really just speaking about the things
>that I hear and the things that I see.

Exactly, Robert. Instead of lecturing me about "my" blindness,
better to attend to the mote in one's own eye? Sorry - but you
have several times treated me as though I were some kind of
ignorant little girl who never did a day's introspection in her life.
I have dealt with my issues from the time I was a little girl - and
I find your accusations on this issue probably reflections of your
own stuff, and I would appreciate your not doing it to me again.

>I don't understand why I am reacting to your words as though you were
>attacking so many people ... I'm not offering a diagnosis, but I hear
>echoes of passive-agressive (my mother being echoed?).  It seems at
>times as though if one is not stating categorically that you are right
>and JoAnne is wrong, that you have been again wounded and strike back

>I can't pick sides.

Life is about picking sides, taking a stand, making judgements. It's
called responsibility, Robert. You were quite able to make a
judgement above that I don't attend to my issues - so I assume
you're capable of making other judgements as well. When you
don't want to make a judgement, perhaps you need to look at
what it is you are avoiding or not wanting to see.

> This isn't about picking sides as there is too much
>history, too many words on too many lists that make up the history of

>this aggressive dialogue of defense and attack and justification and
>one-up-(wo)manship.  I am getting angry that this J&J dialogue seems to
>be going in circles in a vat of acid.  I'm glad that Charles and Walter
>have begun the process of the GBG in hopes of resolving the "impasse".

*You're* sick of it? Then how do you think I feel about it, R? I tried to
end it, but was drawn in again by Walter's stated desire to have
resolution. I am now sorry I opened my mouth.

>Somehow, I think that you would want me in the ring with you once you
>have vanquished JoAnne and Walter ... I sense that you do see this as a
>competition.  I hope that I am wrong, very wrong about everything.  I
>don't handle anger well.  Usually I just "bugger off".  This time I am
>staying.  I will not join in the game as I have too many emotions
>involved at this time in just moving through this part of my life.

If I saw this as a competition, there is no way I would do it. And
what are you saying? I can do the game because I don't  have
as many emotions as you? And are you the only one who has
trouble handling anger? I try to channel my anger, and I have
been learning to get out of the way of those who are aggressively
angry and whose wounds are so great they need to hurt others.
This game seemed to me a chance to do that - and for me to
learn other ways to handle and approach situations and
people who are difficult for me.

You seem to see me as your mother indeed - a Titan who will
devour Walter and JoAnne, and then come after you with the
snakes in my hair ablazing! Better run, Robert! Here I come!
Jesus Christ. Well...my kids call me Wonder Woman - but they
do that lovingly.

So you are wrong, wrong, wrong. And maybe you should just
bugger off. Nothing personal - of course - just as you weren't
really personal or mean with me. Strange - you want empathy for
what you're going through at this time in your life - and I offered
it to you privately. Where is your empathy for what I'm still going
through?

>I hope that you will forgive me these words as I try to do the same.  I
>don't want any more "she said / she said"
>justifications/incriminations.  This is my list too.

"Forgive them, for they know not what they do." I remember lying
in my bed when I was 12, thinking that.  But forgiving doesn't
mean that one allows another to continue acting badly. Forgive
me if you like for whatever it is you think I've done to you - but
also consider forgiving yourself for those things you feel
you've done to yourself and to those who rely on you for
love and presence.

You underestimate me, R, (since you still insist on calling me J).
It's so easy to be mean and angry - except that I find it really hard.
I can't bear to think I am causing someone else pain...because
I feel it myself -so this is a real exercise for me to do it. I don't
want to hurt you Robert, and I know you are going through a lot
in your life now -but so am I - and I am not going to just let you
use me as your kickball while you ignore my life and my heart.

Now - what will you do if I come after you for a third game?
Are you really scared of me? Good! Serves you bloody right.
Now let me just run down to my local snake-and-armour
store to suit up for the battle. Watch out, R! My hair is flying...!!!!!!!

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:28:22 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation

Hi Robert...I'm glad to see you...I was a little worried when you were gone so long to 'fight the dragon' for your wife and 'sons'.  I hope it went ok.
   I see you as trying so hard to life up to the expectation that others have of you that you
sometimes may almost lose touch with yourself (yourSelf?)
  I've been thinking of you as a 'hero'.  Like the third son in the fairy tales.  You know.  After the first two rather awful older sons go out and fail to stop to: take the thorn out of the bunny's paw, give the old lady a drink, etc.  Then the third
and youngest goes out and being kind to all along the way he gets the princess
and the treasure.
  Your situation of being 'on trial' as a teacher and all sounds truly horrid.
Regretably I've been there.  I hate being in a position when others on whose
opinion I must depend can 'judge' me.
  Us INFPs don't have an easy time of it in this world.
  I, too, hope you get more chance to just be Rrobert.
         Nnancy

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Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:36:53 -0600
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Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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Julienne,

Where did this come from?  Do you understand my words at all?  Perhaps
if we spoke in French I would have less difficulty with the transfer of
concepts.

I'm not afraid of you, nor have I ever said so.  I am afraid of my own
anger and have said so.  I do not ask you for mental help, I have a
great psychoanalyst and know better than to others into that place of
temenos that defines a psychoanalyst/psychoanalysand realtionship.

Read your words and re-read mine.  Translate them into German, or
Spanish, or Danish, or whatever ...

What is your purpose in these words that you sent to me via this list?
As well, I would like to know why you asked the question of being
"parent" to others here.  They also have asked you and you have not
answered a single request for such that was posed.  Are you really a
victim here in PSYBER-L?

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:39:55 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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At 05:57 PM 6/16/98 -0600, R wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>I am trying now to return to my post which resulted in your response to
>which I have just finished replying:
>
>> I don't understand.  I hear so much gentleness in your words then I hear
>> attack.  I sense a blindness and deafness to your issues and your own
>> voice.  But, I realise that I am really just speaking about the things
>> that I hear and the things that I see.
>
>These words are not about you, or an attack on you.  I carefully used
>the words about "my hearing" rather than what "you said".  There is an
>ocean of difference.  I am talking about ME not YOU.  Saying that, I
>don't want you to think that you don't deserve to be "talked about".
>What I am saying is that I am talking about ME to YOU.  That is done
>with *trust* and belief that doing so will give me benefit not pain.

Well, goody for you. How about my benefit or pain - or doesn't that count?

>> I don't understand why I am reacting to your words as though you were
>> attacking so many people ... I'm not offering a diagnosis, but I hear
>> echoes of passive-agressive (my mother being echoed?).
>
>Again, I am talking about my reaction and possible roots.  I identify
>(not well explained) and name the possible projection.  Your words were
>the "hooks" upon which I was drawn into projection ... your words, not
>you.  I have not made a single statement about YOU either positive or
>negative.  I hope that you can see/hear this.

Oh sure. I don't have feelings which respond immediately to experience.
I am a totally rational human being - so when someone suggests I
am passive-aggressive like his mother I just smile knowingly - therapist-like.
I didn't take a word you said personally. However, R, it might have helped
if you hadn't addressed it to me, or, instead of using my name (or initial)
had just addressed what you said to "person", for instance.

>> It seems at
>> times as though if one is not stating categorically that you are right
>> and JoAnne is wrong, that you have been again wounded and strike back

Look, if someone were killing me on the street, could I really expect
standersby to make judgements or take action to stop it? Silly me...if
I were to.

>Again, this is not a statement of fact but a perception. All perceptions
>are just that, perceptions.  I name it as perception "It seems ... as
>though ..."

Sure, R - quite a distinction.

>> I can't pick sides.  This isn't about picking sides as there is too much
>> history, too many words on too many lists that make up the history of
>> this aggressive dialogue of defense and attack and justification and
>> one-up-(wo)manship.  I am getting angry that this J&J dialogue seems to
>> be going in circles in a vat of acid.  I'm glad that Charles and Walter
>> have begun the process of the GBG in hopes of resolving the "impasse".
>
>There is no blaming of "person".  There is a statement about my
>"feeling" of discomfort.  I purposely avoided naming a person and
>purposely named a process/event so as to avoid *attacking* an
>individual's psyche (both yours and JoAnne's).  The acidity of the
>dialogues makes my head and heart hurt.

Whose acid might that be? And are you the only one with
head and heart?

>The reference to the GBG is viewed positively with a hopeful positive
>outcome. Having "been there", my thanks to these two "gentle" men is
>real.

"gentle men" as opposed to acidic women?

>> Somehow, I think that you would want me in the ring with you once you
>> have vanquished JoAnne and Walter ... I sense that you do see this as a
>> competition.
>
>In my previous post I gave reasons for this.  The words of yours to
>Walter are there in the archives.  If I must, I will search for them for
>you.  I feel what I feel, I think what I think.  I refuse to deny my
>feelings or thoughts. All of my words here speak of my feelings, my
>thoughts, my sensations, my understandings.  At no point do I state an

>objective or factual "truth".

Are you trying to say you were just gossiping?

>> I hope that I am wrong, very wrong about everything.  I
>> don't handle anger well.  Usually I just "bugger off".
>
>I have the feeling that my previous habit of abandoning a tense
>situation is responsible for that added aspect of "commitment" to the
>GBG.  I was the one who fled when the kettle got too hot to handle, too
>hot for me when my f2f life was also going through its own hell.  Again,
>there is no comment about you.  There are statements about my own
>failings, my own short-comings.
>
>> This time I am staying.  I will not join in the game as I have too many
>> emotions involved at this time in just moving through this part of my life.

Your versions of "going" and "staying" seem a little synonymous to me, R.

>This is about me, not about you.  My life off-line precludes my
>participation. I am tempted to join, but I am learning to give myself
>some real-life consideration.  I want to move forward and thus be better
>able to participate here when another GBG opportunity arises.

Like when you and I do it, huh?  I have the snakes ordered...

>> I hope that you will forgive me these words as I try to do the same.  I
>> don't want any more "she said / she said"
>> justifications/incriminations.  This is my list too.
>
>Again, no attack on you.  None in the whole post.

Oh - none taken, R. The pain in my stomach and the tightening all
over my body must be from what I ate, or the draft from the window.
The feeling that every atom in my body is screaming must be from

too much escaping radiation from my computer.

>Yet, I sense that you
>would feel agreived and thus I beg forgiveness as though speaking my
>feelings were somehow something I need to be forgiven for doing.  I
>notice that this post and the last post are filled with instances of
>needing to affirm over and over that I am speaking of me and not you so
>that you do not suffer unduly from my daring to speak my feelings, my
>thoughts, my perceptions ... as though to do so is almost to become a
>rapist, a murderer, an abuser, a victimizer ...  I do want to feel that
>I have a right to speak my feelings without feeling that doing so puts
>me into the role of abuser.  I'm not a bad guy.  In fact, I'm nice,
>gentle, caring, and even a bit good-looking.  I do have faults and am
>working hard at resolving some of them so that I can be even nicer.

Hey, R - you just say whatever you feel like saying - only what others
say feels like acid.

>Robert - wanting someday to be free to be Robert

Open your eyes, R - you already are - but you know what? You're not
just nice - and I'm your hook - and the hook tears my flesh.

The problem of course, is how to be ourselves in the midst of
others trying to be themselves - and how to have this happen
without blood being left all over the floor.

Robert, once upon a time, I went out on a dat with a guy who
called me a ball-breaker. I was devastated. I went home and
talked to a guy I'd known for years - he just happened to call
and foud me in tears, so I blurted the whole sad story out
to him. His answer? He had thought the same thing too -
because in those days (about a hundred years ago) I
was a gorgeous young thing with a brain, etc., - and
so he said I had the capacity to be a ballbreaker. But he
said he waited and waited for me to do something awful
to him or others he observed in my life - and finally he
realized I wasn't going to do it.

So - I guess I can do it - cause here I am. But what's the
point? There's so much pain and anger and hurt in the
world that to increase it in any way is so infinitely
stupid - because it can only increase the level of pain
in the world and for each of us. And it does so much
soul damage that it's whacko. Is a temporary and
superficial victory in any hurting confrontation worth
anything of value in the long run - or in the wider
vision? Doesn't seem that way to me... And I can't do it
without hurting myself in myriad ways.

On the other hand - I'm still making an appointment
to have my hair done in a way which will best highlight
the movement of the snakes... not too much conditioner
because I wouldn't want all the snakes to just slither out.
I may also have a rinse - blonde hair seems too pale for
the Erishkigal look. Dark red and black with bloody
highlights might be good.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:47:15 EDT
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Subject:      Re: Truth
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In a message dated 98-06-16 08:56:40 EDT, Walter wrote:

<< Made me think ...  I wanted to add  other experiential modes ...
 thought, dreams, imagination.  My way of putting it then would be
 that we live in the same reality, but that we have unique inner
 experience.  Also that our perception of the world comes to us
 via that inner reality, which colours it.
  >>

FYI:  In a shamantic trance one can share his inner experience with another
person in a similar shamanic trance.

Which begs the question, Which experience, inner or outer is more "real"?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:03:36 -0700
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      one... was Re: GBG True Reconciliation
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Simon:

Thanks for your post, which offers me a chance to clarify my meaning.

I'm going to do this at some length, partly because I think it illustrates
how easily one person can feel "misread" or "inappropriately quoted" by
another, with the best of human intentions -- and I hope it will also
function as an illustration, along with whatever posts follow from either
one of us, of how such "misreadings and inappropriatre quotings" can in
fact be resolved with a little clarity and a little goodwill.

For the record, then, I feel "misread" by you, and you have my full
sympathy for your feeling of having been "inappropriately quoted".  I wish
you well.  I have plenty of energy to deal with these issues from my side,
no doubt arising at least in part from my frustration that they even need
to be dealt with -- but also no animosity towards your person.

Here goes...

*

When I wrote:

> As far as the games being inherently mean are concerned, I hope
> that Hoon's and Simon's words set your mind at rest

the meaning and emphasis of the words "inherently mean" was uppermost in my
mind.  I wished to distinguish very carefully here between the idea of the
games as they exist independently, outside Psyber-L let alone the proposed
conflict resolution event, and their use *in* such an event, and what I was
suggesting was that if the games (the HipBone structure of boards and
moves) had an *inherent* mean streak, if they *just begged to be put to
mean uses*, if one *could hardly play a HipBone Game without slandering or
wounding others*, you'd have been unlikely to have commented quite so
quickly on their poetry.

So when you write:

> I have no basis for extrapolating from A (sample finished games)
> to B (suggested conflict resolution process).

I have to say that I was quite clear you did not.  I wasn't making any such
extrapolation *either* at that point, as I think you'll see if you reread
my post.  I hadn't reached that point in my thinking, I was responding to
something Julienne had said, to wit:

> If the glass bead game is a matter of "being in the ring",
> as you put it  Robert, then it is not a game, but something
> meant to injure someone, and I do not want to be part of
> something which is supposed to be a game, but is apparently,
> from your reference, Robert, something much meaner.

and had I thought carefully indicated that I was talking about a supposed
"inherent meanness" in the HipBone Games at large.  These words of mine
were the closing words of a series of paragraphs, followed by an asterisk
break, and when I resumed, I wrote:

> Moving on to the question of the game as something that might
> be helpful in conflict resolution in general -

Thereby indicating a shift in topic, and the *beginning* of my considering
whether the games might be misused in a mean way, or in a way that
facilitated meanness, *in a specifically conflict oriented situation.  That
was the point at which I began the consideration of extrapolation about
possible "conflict resolution" uses of the games -- and my conclusion on
*that* topic was not particularly reassuring.  I said:

> The games may help ... there may be little point to them.

And I quite specifically *commented* on the folly of extrapolating between
all the games I have been involved in, including the Dream Event, and the
proposed game event, in these words:

> it would be naive and foolish in the extreme for me to suppose
> that the occasions when the games have a positive outcome
> *prove* that they'd have a positive outcome in this case.

So I hardly think I can be accused of reassuring anyone by means of your
words that your positive sense of the Games -- on an admittedly cursory
reading of games played by others -- in any way translates into the
proposition that the games would be likely have a positive outcome in a
conflict resolution situation.

The point I was making, and still feel can be supported by your words, is
that the games aren't "tilted towards evil", so to speak.

*

Nevertheless, you felt inappropriately quoted, and as I go back and reread
Julienne's post, which I was responding to, I find that *her* words:

> If the glass bead game is a matter of "being in the ring", as you
> put it  Robert, then it is not a game, but something meant to
> injure someone, and I do not want to be part of something which
> is supposed to be a game, but is apparently, from your reference,
> Robert, something much meaner.

to which I was attempting to respond at that point *are* about the games in
a conflict resolution situation, viz: "the ring" -- and I can see how you
might have "read" that CRness into my own paras about the "inherent" [ie:
pre-CR] nature of the games.  I believe that that's a misreading, and I
believe that I did in fact make my points -- and the distinctions between
them -- reasonably clear.  I'm a professional writer, and would be happy
with the post as I originally wrote and rewrote it if I was about to submit
it to a publisher -- but if the copy editor than said to me what you've
said, or Julienne, or JoAnne, in your various comments on that post, I'd go
back and make myself that little bit clearer, and thank my lucky stars
there was someone with keener eyes than mine in the publishing house.
Because my effort in writing and rewriting and again rewriting, even before
anyone else sees my stuff, is to smooth away as many possible obstacles to
understanding as I can imagine.  And then to begin over.  And that, for me,
is where true writer's craftsmanship begins.

*

Soooo...

Hoping to have illuminated both why you may have felt inappropriately
quoted and why I have felt misread along the way, and hoping there's no
adverse fallout from the attempt, I'd like now in your honor and out of
concern for your concerns to *delete* my quotation of your words from the
ongoing "draft" of what is essentially a ground-clearing "statement" about
online conflict in preparation for the proposed game event...

partly as you point out because you've only *read* sample games, and not
yet played the games themselves, an omission that we may get the chance to
rectify perhaps <grin>...

and partly because as you also point out, with an apt quotation from my own
wedsite, I am of the strong opinion that reading others' games is no
substitute for actual play, and may in fact be confusing to some...

feeling more than a little pleased, indeed, that you read the site closely
enough to notice that warning -- which I put in because I think it's
important -- and to recall it and quote it in so entirely apposite a
manner...

...and I would like in place of your own words, to substitute those of
Robert, received since I wrote: because he *has* played the games, and
indeed did so in the Dream Event, which probably comes closer to what we
shall be attempting here -- though still not close enough for those
problematic extrapolations -- than any comparable playing:

> I have been involved in the last GBG and can testify to Charles'
> words, if anything, one emerges from the experience loving each
> and every person who was part of the process.  That we bared
> our psyche there and emerged transformed was the greatest gift
> for which I could ever thank Walter and Charles.

This too, I think, testifies to the fact that the games are not
"inherently" mean -- as I said, a small point, but an important one in view
of the way Julienne said she felt when she came across Robert's phrase
"want me in the ring with you"...

*

And to say here, as I tried to say at the beginning, that this post of mine
is intended in the spirit of the reconciliation of differences, and that I
trust that with your help and further comments, Simon, it may be part of a
successful attempt to see how misreadings and the like can be resolved by
those who succumb to them.

Because people are always stumbling over each other's words.

*

There's a much shorter form of all this, of course, more lovely but perhaps
less insight provoking -- and I'm mailing it as a separate post along with
this one.

It's in the lap of the cybergods which one you will happen to read first...

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 19:03:36 -0700
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      or other... was Re: GBG True Reconciliation
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Simon:

My apologies.  I didn't realize I was quoting you in a way you wouldn't
appreciate.  Consider my remarks withdrawn.

Best regards,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:13:06 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      INFP's
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Hi Nnancy - I like this, it has a goddess quality about it  :)

> Hi Robert...I'm glad to see you...I was a little worried when you were
> gone so long to 'fight the dragon' for your wife and 'sons'.  I hope it
> went ok.

It went well.  The vice-principal admitted to being unfair, admitted to
making racist comments to my Mexican son, admitted that both he and the
principal over-reacted to his "lack of enthusiasm with removal from
school, and he admitted to "slight" physical force in trying to make a
point.  He did apologise to my Mexican son for the racist comments later
that day after a meeting with the director of education.  Both admitted
to not communicating before acting.  The fight was won.  The battle
continues.

> I see you as trying so hard to life up to the expectation that other
> have of you that you sometimes may almost lose touch with yourself
> (yourSelf?)

:)  Have you been talking with my analyst?  :)  This is a theme in my
life that has been in place from earliest times.

> I've been thinking of you as a 'hero'.  Like the third son in the fairy
> tales.  You know.

Yes, I know.  An example is the WATER OF LIFE story found in Grimm's
Fairy Tales.  I don't feel like much of a hero though.  Too many cracks
and rust in my armour ... in my psyche.  :)   I actually don't even see
a role for me in these tales at all.  I am L'ETRANGER (the outsider).

> Your situation of being 'on trial' as a teacher and all sounds truly
> horrid. Regretably I've been there.  I hate being in a position when
> others on whose opinion I must depend can 'judge' me.

It is uncomfortable as I often feel that due to the nature of being
INFP, others in positions of authority find us convenient being upon
which to place the focus that would otherwise highlight their own
stuff.  Being the "healer" (another word definition of INFP) both in
Keirsey terms and by definition for being of the CANCER sign (according
to a book I once saw), it is more likely to heal the wounds created by
others than to take them to task for these errors that wounded.  Yes,
others do the "judging" as it isn't in our "nature".  We are handy
targets of judgements though since we are the "quiet" ones.

I'd like to hear more of your story, your being there.

>   Us INFPs don't have an easy time of it in this world.

Maybe that's because we are the least numerous of all of these
personality groups.  Thanks for the opportunity to speak with you.  :)

Rrobert :)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:11:30 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: INFP's...Ah...To breath again...

On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:13:06 -0600, Robert Longpre  wrote:
N: Thank you, Rrobert for this pleasant post to sleep on before a long dental appt tomorrow.
>Hi Nnancy - I like this, it has a goddess quality about it  :)
------
N: da...a...er...wiggling her bare toes with pleasure...
------
>
>> Hi Robert...I'm glad to see you...I was a little worried when you were
>> gone so long to 'fight the dragon' for your wife and 'sons'.  I hope it
>> went ok.
>
>It went well.  The vice-principal admitted to being unfair, admitted to
>making racist comments to my Mexican son, admitted that both he and the
>principal over-reacted to his "lack of enthusiasm with removal from
>school, and he admitted to "slight" physical force in trying to make a
>point.
------
N:   %$#^!  Is this a public school?  Say it was and justify my staying out until
7th grade.
-----
R: He did apologise to my Mexican son for the racist comments later
>that day after a meeting with the director of education.(N: that sounds private.
May not matter...aargh.)  Both admitted
>to not communicating before acting.  The fight was won.  The battle
>continues.
----
N: Still ...to win an apology out of authoritarians capable of such possession is
quite an achievement.
----->
>> I see you as trying so hard to life up to the expectation that other
>> have of you that you sometimes may almost lose touch with yourself
>> (yourSelf?)
>
>:)  Have you been talking with my analyst?  :)  This is a theme in my
>life that has been in place from earliest times.
----
N: My professional daughter is dealing with this some too.  She's just finishing
up a degree in entemology (I got 2 more months to learn to spell it!)  She feels
she got into this degree program for approbation.  Don't think it will do her much
good in terms of pay.
-------
>
>> I've been thinking of you as a 'hero'.  Like the third son in the fairy
>> tales.  You know.
>
>Yes, I know.  An example is the WATER OF LIFE story found in Grimm's
>Fairy Tales (I don't know that one.  Will look it up.).  I don't feel like much of a hero though. (Like the Indira who as soon as he thought 'how great an I' firmed his next incarnation as an ant.  Those their brothers were always prety modest.)
  Too many cracks>and rust in my armour ... in my psyche.  :)   I actually don't even see>a role for me in these tales at all.  I am L'ETRANGER (the outsider).  Yet what else could those heroes be but INFP?  Many of them seemed to have
more cunning than your average INFP.
>
>> Your situation of being 'on trial' as a teacher and all sounds truly
>> horrid. Regretably I've been there.  I hate being in a position when
>> others on whose opinion I must depend can 'judge' me.
>
>It is uncomfortable as I often feel that due to the nature of being
>INFP, others in positions of authority find us convenient being upon
>which to place the focus that would otherwise highlight their own
>stuff.  Being the "healer" (another word definition of INFP) both in
>Keirsey terms and by definition for being of the CANCER sign (according
>to a book I once saw), it is more likely to heal the wounds created by
>others than to take them to task for these errors that wounded.  Yes,
>others do the "judging" as it isn't in our "nature".  We are handy
>targets of judgements though since we are the "quiet" ones.
----
N: Some Philanthropist should set up a 'feel' tank when we could live and 'develop' empathy and how to distributed efficiently....we might have to get other
types to manage the distribution...and house and yard work, though we would be allowed to putter in kitchen and garden when we didn't have pressing dreaming, writing or empathizing to do.  There'd cottages for families and a small
school taught by INFPs.  And we'd have to have a mirrow pool for swimming with ducks and/swan in it.  A weeping willow at the bank.  Do swans bite like that goose in the movie "Friendly Persuasion"?
>
>I'd like to hear more of your story, your being there.
-------
N: you'll read bits of peaches (Iwish) some of it wasn't so peachy.  I learned no
great lessens, made no great inovation.  I think, out of fatiquer perhaps, they just learned to accept me along with my odditied.  Oh, well...that's just Nancy (smile)
>
>>   Us INFPs don't have an easy time of it in this world.
>
>Maybe that's because we are the least numerous of all of these
>personality groups.  Thanks for the opportunity to speak with you.  :)
-----
N:  Hey, man.  I'm always around.  Just give a hollar.
        Junst go with  grace and learn to think like a Sshelfish,
bbb
                NNNnnnnancyzz   /0\  yawnnnnn....
>cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc___Nnancy____________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Jun 1998 23:12:18 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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At 04:50 PM 6/16/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>I have to come back to your response to my post and then return to my
>original post.  To much doesn't "balance" for me.
>
>> Your words seem filled with so much rage and hatred
> >> towards me.
>
>No hatred towards you, confused thoughts "yes", projections "yes".
>Anger?  That is admitted, but it isn't dumped on you, it is triggered by
>your words and there is a great deal of difference.  I see this as more
>transference and counter-transference stuff.

But it IS dumped on me, Robert. You can't just *say* it isn't.

>> I have not seen you get this angry at JoAnne
>
>This isn't a contest to see who will get angry with who most.

That's an angry and sarcastic remark.

I don't
>know either of you here except through my "limited" understanding of the
>thoughts being presented here.  There is no blame attached to not being
>able to fully understand.

No blame. But if one does not understand, then there is a responsibility
not to make pronouncements about another person.

 Addressing those areas of non-understanding
>is what some of this dialogue is all about (thinking about HooN's and
>Simon's recent discussion) here on PSYBER-L.

That's fine.

>> seen Walter get as angry as JoAnne as at me.
>
>Walter has become angry with me and I with him.  Anger is not something
>so easily banished.  How that anger is dealt with is important in terms
>of this list's health (in using the word list I mean the company of
>people, I hesitate to use the word community -- Walter).  Anita has
>shown a bit af anger towards me ... resolved (I think).  We all have

>"triggers" which get activated by something that is found in the words
>posted here.  We react to that activation.  There are "hooks" in the
>many words posted here.
>
>Admit the anger.

Are you speaking to me or to yourself here?

Would you allow me to say something about your chart here, Robert?
I did it for you, as you requested, but we were never able to go foward
with it because you had no phone where you are. I am not going to say
anything on list without your permission. btw - I was startled the other
day when you said to me agrily, "Are you my therapist?" What do you
think an astrologer does?

> Search for the hooks in order to release the tension
>on the triggers.  Resolve the confusion of action/reaction and move on
>to other posts with an increased trust in the container and those
>contained within it.  That is what has happened here in PSYBER-L.  That
>is why I don't want this list to fail, to be denied to me.  This list
>can be just as valuable to you.  I don't know anyone here I wouldn't
>trust, ANYONE!  Of course, that includes YOU, Julienne.  I don't hate
>you.  In fact, if you check the archives, I have responded more to you
>than to JoAnne in positive supportive ways, honestly. Why?  It wasn't
>because I was angry with JoAnne, it had to do with the pull to reply to
>your words.  There is a real "pull".

I didn't say you hated me, Robert. But I do feel very strong feelings
on this list, and some of them seem to me very rage-filled.

>> Although I keep hearing denials, I don't think anyone is
>> really paying attention to what is happening here.
>
>I don't agree.  In fact I see this community as being VERY concerned.
>This building of a GBG is proof of that.

There is a difference between being concerned and paying attention.
The building of the GBG is not necessarily proof of that at all. The GBG
can be just an intellectual exercise, or a curiousity - it all depends on
who does it and why - what reasons and motives they have for going
into it.

>> I feel on the defensive all the time.

>And I hear that defensiveness ... and I hear more than defensiveness.
>But then again, what I am talking about is what "I hear", not
>necessarily what "was said".

I am glad you realize that.

>> I am sure you think I am exaggerating, but
>> my friends who have been there when I have been through
>> these experiences with JoAnne, don't.

>True, we haven't been there.  I haven't been there.  I haven't been
>party to those experiences.  And as for all the dispute about who said
>what on this list, there is no way to measure the truth or non-truth of
>all the words.

Maybe not *all* the words, but common sense and intelligence
and other abilities do help us to come to conclusions about
any event.

 As an educator, as a consellor, I know that "truth" is

>viewed differently.  I know that given an accident scene with 10
>witnesses who saw the "whole thing", it is unlikely to get two stories
> >that are identical.  And, no one in telling their stories engages in
>"lying".  You work with children, you have watched them play their
>games.  You know that they don't even hear the same.  Make a statement
>(not too simple, but well within their level of comprehension) and then
>ask them what was said.  They will not agree amongst themselves and will
>more often than not present their "facts" their "truths" about the
>statement (I am smiling as I think about the game "telephone" which
>younger children play which illustrates this so well).

And adults do the same.

>> I came on this list, and JoAnne
>> attacked me - and you all let it happen.
>
>What do you think I should have done?  What did you really want form
>me/others at this time?  Were we supposed to tar and feather JoAnne
>because of a conflict in stories?  Was I supposed to say something to
>the effect that JoAnne was bad and Julienne was good?  Was I supposed to
>counsel "let's not talk to JoAnne because she hurt Julienne"?  Here I
>have learned to find a way through the hurt through reflection and
>continued dialogue based on trust, trust that was HARD earned and now
>prized.

No. What I wanted was for it not to continue at that time in my life.
I tried to tell you all that. I tried to tell you all what was happening -
but the list wouldn't stop. Why couldn't whatever people wanted
to talk about with me have been put off till a time when I
wasn't so fragile? Why, when I left the discussion for weeks at
a time, was the discussion about me continued? Why, when
you all knew the death of my father was occurring, couldn't
you have tabled the discussion till later when I was more
able to cope?

>> JoAnne. Today she says she is being sarcastic, and she
>> is enjoying taking people from my list - but I am the one
>> you are angry at.

>I am not talking about JoAnne in my post to you that resulted in this
>response.  This is about ME and MY feelings.  JoAnne is not the centre
>of all dialogues.  I hear a response to an "other" in process, then
>inserted is a reference to that "evil woman, JoAnne", a reference that
>jars me, a reference that is out of place as *I understand it*.

Aha! But only JoAnne and you have called her evil, Robert. I
didn't call her that - although she loves to repeat it - with the
effect that you now apparently believe that I did call her evil/

>> Well, I think I have to think about this. To see such anger
>> and rage coming at me is horrifying. I know I don't deserve it.

>Is it coming at you, or are you claiming it?

Yes, it is coming at me, Robert, from you. Please don't hand
me responsibility for your attitudes.

>This isn't a criticism, it's a call to have you look more
> closely at the dynamics, at the contextual framework of
> the words of "others".  No one deserves to be "target".

Well, thanks very much for the call, Robert, but I choose
not to claim it - but to hand your instructions back to you.

>>  - but JoAnne
>> came along and over half the list left because I wouldn't
>> unsubscribe her. Well, maybe I should have. And maybe
> I should unsubscribe myself from here as well.


>I just got lost in the transfer of logic from situation one to situation
>two.

My point is that it is not healthy for me to be around JoAnne-
whichever list it's on.

>> I don't think this is a healthy place for me - and hasn't been from
>> the first day you decided it was all right for JoAnne and
>> Wilbur to hurt me so.

>I didn't decide it was any such thing.  No one, as far as I can see,
>decided that.  These are your feelings, your perceptions.  Better,
>*maybe* would be to ask what we felt, what we perceived than to make
>assumptions, than to draw conclusions.  I think that this will be the
>real strength of the GBG.

No - it wasn't just my perception - it was what happened. I
explained above.

>> If your reaction is any measure of
>> this list, then it is not worth it to me to attempt any
>> understanding or reconciliation.

>> If the glass bead game is a matter of "being in the ring",
>> as you put it  Robert, then it is not a game, but something
>> meant to injure someone, and I do not want to be part of
>> something which is supposed to be a game, but is apparently,
>> from your reference, Robert, something much meaner.
>
>I just re-read my words and don't for the life of me know where that
>comes from.  I made reference to your expressed notion of maybe
>following up having JoAnne as "principal" with another game with Walter
>joining you as "principal".  Walter was/is seen as a "threat" and thus
>the potential need for a second game.  With a developing dis-ease with
>me, I made the leap of logic. To me it appears to be an opportunity for
>you to be proven right rather than for everyone to be proven right in
>their own manner.  From all the dialogues, I have a hard time
>envisioning your willingness to have JoAnne have any "rightness".  Thus,
>I see it as *viewed* as a win-lose situation by yourself

Walter as a *threat* is your interpretation. It was Charles
suggestion that Walter and I do the game, and I was actually happy
at the possibility of better communicatioon with Walter. As for the rest -
I don't know what to say. It feels like I am being asked to defend
against accusations of being green. That's your stuff, Robert - not mine.

>I have been involved in the last GBG and can testify to Charles' words,
>if anything, one emerges from the experience loving each and every
>person who was part of the process.  That we bared our psyche there and

>emerged transformed was the greatest gift for which I could ever thank
>Walter and Charles.

Then why on earth did you bring in the idea of the games as
competition and war? This was all your stuff, Robert - not mine.

>> Do you really believe that the person raped asks for it?
>> Or the person murdered? Or the person hurt? I think
>> people need to take responsibility for their actions, and not
>> blame the person they damage.
> >
>Julienne, I can't answer these questions as they seem fully out of
>context and not part of my experience here.  The question of "hurt" does
>have a place here.  I wonder how much you have thought about
>"projections" and "hooks", about "transference" and
>"counter-transference"?  This is a psychological space, a therapeutic
>space, a place of the psyche.  These things are alive and operational
>here.  It is necessary to study oneself and one's dialogue with these
>concepts every ready for understanding what is happening.  Or, to
>question what has happened.

You're speaking down to me again, Robert.

>Do I make any sense?  Three responses to your post ... none to mine.
>And YOU think/say no one cares about YOU ... I don't want this to be an
>issue of taking up one's toys and going home mad at the "other".  You
>are not my victim.  I am not your victimizer.

Gee - now who's counting?

Then talk to me Robert - ask me questions, but stop venting
and accusing.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:08:33 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
In-Reply-To:  <3586F6B7.58DF@cybersurf.net>
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Robert

>  I hesitate to use the word community -- Walter

I read the post involving some things you wrote about community
in my catching up process ... no intention of getting at you at
all in my thoughts on community the other day.

Also the final word on community has not been said, so i guess
we'll use it for a while!  <grin>

I hope that thoughts on community at that time are understood
reflection ... musing ...


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:19:44 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Keirsey test
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Dear all,

walter = INFJ

and also for the record:

I have one son 26, and Kate has a daugter who turns 18 next week.
We have been togther 10 years, since Rebecca was 8.  She spends
hollidays with her own father & they get on well.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:42:40 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Kerry  Hennessy, welcome.
In-Reply-To:  <199806162033.IAA20281@icarus.ihug.co.nz>
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Welcome to Psyber-L ... I hope you enjoy our gathering here in
cyberspace.  Please let us know more about you ... I am sure
people will make you welcome ...

Walter

> Tue, 16 Jun 1998 16:33:41
>
> Kerry  Hennessy <Dalton73@AOL.COM>  has just  subscribed to  the PSYBER-L
> list (Psybernet Mailing List).

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:44:39 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Kerry  Hennessy, welcome.
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Oops

> Wed, 17 Jun 1998 01:50:47
>
> Kerry Hennessy <Dalton73@AOL.COM>  has just signed off  the PSYBER-L list
> (Psybernet Mailing List).

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:19:03 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: intentions of dialogue
In-Reply-To:  <358882c2.104793523@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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>Simon,
>
>I just lost my detailed response to your post.  The battery went
>and crashed the system, very unusual.  I'll re do it next
>opportunity.  I hate it when that happens.  Not my intention!
>
>Walter


Walter,

I appreciate your consideration in writing the above - especially given the
circumstance!

Better luck next attempt!


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:27:33 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: or other... was Re: GBG True Reconciliation
In-Reply-To:  <l03130301b1acd3c5ba0f@[38.29.10.211]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Simon:
>
>My apologies.  I didn't realize I was quoting you in a way you wouldn't
>appreciate.  Consider my remarks withdrawn.
>
>Best regards,


Charles,

I just wanted to reply briefly (responding to the spirit of *both* your
posts) rather than simply go silent. Demands of work and deadlines need to
be attended to (something I'm sure you'll appreciate as a writer!), and I
need to place all my attention there for now. Your considered response
deserves more consideration than I can give it here at the moment, but
hopefully this short post is better than nothing.

I 'got it' as soon as I saw the titles of both your posts (which came in
together, in the right order!) and the length of each post, and take it all
in the good spirit intended. And I appreciate that you make a constructive
link with the current thread between Walter and I.

I am very sensitive to how my words are used, and to the nuances of
recontextualisation - perhaps overly sensitive. You did use my words in a
logically accurate way, and I take your point also about the extrapolation.
I think there's an issue here (for me, anyway) of weight. I appreciate that
you considered my brief observations worth mentioning, but to me they
didn't carry the weight you seemed to be assigning them in the context of
that post. To me, HooN's words carried a lot more weight as someone who was
speaking about his sense of the games *from the inside*, out of direct
experience

In my work I weigh my words and hope that they will carry some weight
accordingly; not intending to be grandiose, I just want what I write to be
read as considered, honest and trustworthy, with some insight and depth to
it (not meaning to tread on anyone's toes here about spontaneous writing
from the soul on personal issues). To me, my comments were not of that
order, they weren't based on considered analysis or on experience, just an
intuited observation from scanning through the samples onsite, and so
didn't carry what seemed to me adequate weight. Now you put Robert's quote
in next to HooN's, and to me it seems of equal weight.

So, it was really this sense that I was responding to in my post, and okay
I'm probably being too touchy. Also, my response to you wasn't based on
considered analysis of your whole post, and was unfair to you, so my
apologies. I could say it was late, I was tired, not thinking properly or
getting everything in balance; probably a good argument for not posting
when other matters call (such as sleep, work).

For the record, I don't see you as a mean person (far from it), and I
hardly think it likely that you would spend so much time and energy working
on something that was inherently mean.

I wonder though (in an abstract way) if it might be that something could be
inherently mean *within a certain context*, not yet encountered perhaps. Or
maybe get rid of 'inherently', which I don't think is particularly useful,
and consider tendencies. What is it about the GBG, if anything, that would
tend to move events towards or away from 'meanness'? Or: what is it about
the GBG, if anything, that would tend to move events towards or away from a
positive outcome?

Well, I really need to stop now (that's me telling myself 'out loud'!).

Charles, I hope the above is constructive and valuable, and that you no
longer feel aggrieved or frustrated.


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 07:06:45 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

---Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM> wrote:
>
> Hi Robert...I'm glad to see you...I was a little worried when you
were gone so long to 'fight the dragon' for your wife and 'sons'.  I
hope it went ok.

Me too.
I am sorry not to express my concerns more early.
But I always dreamed of getting much better, as for you.
In my imagination,
you are weak but strong,
   floating but stable like a huge rock in mind.


>   Your situation of being 'on trial' as a teacher and all sounds
truly horrid.
> Regretably I've been there.  I hate being in a position when others
on whose
> opinion I must depend can 'judge' me.
>   Us INFPs don't have an easy time of it in this world.
>   I, too, hope you get more chance to just be Rrobert.
>          Nnancy
>
I also hope so.

Robert.

...I can't translate my fragmentary thoughts in English properly.
   Ah,,, suffocating......

****************************
5-12-98
 ...(omission)

                       (korean sound)
walking in the pass,(sup gilul gada)
   stop,(mom-cheo)
       in silence,(ga-man-hi)
         smell aromas of briers(cjle ccot ne-um-ul
                 mattannunde)

!(munduc)
    on a slender leaf,(ga-nyu-rin ipseyi)
    like a very small *GLASS BEAD*(jan gusuel moyang- eu)
    rouge-white round berry.(jinhong-hinbitsche
                               dongran yoelmega
               itsutsoe)

    (omission)
*******************

4-29-98

...(omission)

.sssarrrsssarrrr...
..it sounds in the center of the woods
..ssaracssarac ssarrrr

...what?...(muoelcca?)
...ssssarrrssssarrrr....
..Ah. sounds of raining...
....sssarrssarr
....ssarsar
...sarsar. s.   r.        s...........

..Ah. no sounds????..
...where go, sounds?
...Ah! cool sent of raining...
          winging rains only for one minute.

********************
I send sweet aromas of bush's flowers
               and cool sents of raining to you.


Be happy.

Meeseo.



............
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:59:00 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> Incorrect or incomplete address field found and
              ignored.
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG Re: [P] or other...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

No prob, Simon:

Any frustration I felt was just a sparking mechanism for writing the longer
of my two posts, and shapeshifted into glee by the time I got under way.

*

An interesting question you pose:

> I wonder though (in an abstract way) if it might be that
> something could be inherently mean *within a certain context*,
> not yet encountered perhaps.

It sounds to me as though the meanness would be in the context, not the
not-normally-mean something.  Making basketball hoops isn't normally mean,
but in the context of a dominant father and rebelling son duking their
conflict out by a contest of hoops (key scene in a film whose name I don't
recall) it takes on the local coloration...

Which is a stop-gap answer, meaning I think the question survives it.

You continue...

> What is it about the GBG, if anything, that would tend to move
> events towards or away from 'meanness'? Or: what is it about the
> GBG, if anything, that would tend to move events towards or
> away from a positive outcome?

Hesse's GBG is portrayed in the book as in some ways close to sterility
because players play it in a vacuum, unaware of the currents of every day
life, politics, history... and yet it's obviously also a highly creative,
beautiful, fascinating game.  But then he's talking, in a roundabout way,
about how unable the high tradition of arts and humanities in the European
universities was to directly confront and deal with the tide of xenophobia
etc that gave rise to Hitler.

Hesse's irony is notable, as is his "innocence", or idealism -- and the
ambivalence / balance between them, expressed as an ambivalence / balance
between "positive" and "negative" views of the Game and its players,  is
quite a feature of the book.

My own games are structures: let's call them for the sake of discussion,
structures for writing, or structures for conversation.  At "ground zero",
they can therefore be considered "morally neutral", like all tools: but I
do think there are way in which their nature probably encourages a "tilt"
away froim meanness and towards the good.

Here are some thoughts in that direction...

1.  Play:

One of my industry friends took a look at my games, and said -- I'm quoting
from memory:

::  There are two kinds of play -- playing for play's sake, and
::  playing to win.  Your games can be used for either one, but excell
::  as games played for play's sake.

There's a lot of discussion at the moment in the computer games design
industry of the difference between "competitive games" and "cooperative
games", and lots of designers are bored with games that only interest
adolescent male testosterone -- so one trend that's emerging is games that
require cooperation within competing teams.  Competition can be fun...
cooperative teamwork with a competitive framework is pretty neat too.

I've seen games played for sheer fun, in what I call "mock competitive"
mode, such that the two teams (I'm thinking of a particular party at a
friend's house) got as much glee out of showing their opponents' links
"didn't count" as they did scoring their own -- but the effect was mutual,
and no sooner had one side ridiculed a link claimed by the other than the
other side was on top of them for an equally dubious link <grin>.  And I've
devised a variant on the games called "Trumps", where a player can "remove"
an opponent's move by putting a move in its place which carries more links
than the original... I even say this variant was designed "for added
viciousness".  But it's the fundamental nature of *play* to be playful,
joyful, even when it's a play of attack and defence.

2.  Polyphony:

Solo games could be used for pretty much any purpose that writing can be
used for -- so there might be a HBG equivalent of a polemical article, but
one feature which would tend to defeat such a thing would be the built in
polyphony: ie the games presuppose that two contrary moves are held in
dynamic tension, not that one refutes (and so to speak logically erases)
the other.

3.  Structure:

The games aren't easy, by any means.  The first move is absolutely simple,
the second is a matter of letting the first remind you of something -- but
by the time you get to the fifth or sixth move, the "reminding of" may need
to link with three or four very diffrerent ideas, or indeed with two or
three ideas that are so similar that finding something that can link to all
three of them without duplication of linkage is very tricky indeed.

So the constraints of structure, and the sheer effort of creative thought
they involve, is probably enough to dissuade almost all of those who might
like to play the games for negative "ulterior motives".

4.  Release:

Because the structure is tight, playing the games involves "dipping into
the well" of associative thought to an extraordinary extent.  This taps the
"creative unconscious", often at an archetypal level, while offering the
symbolic contents that emerge a formal and analytic device for notating
them.  The release of archetypal energy from the "unconscious" into
consciousness is generally a positive and therapeutic business, *as long as
there is a suitable form in consciousness to receive the energy*, so that
it doesn't overwhelm / capsize consciousness in a regression to infantile
"possession".

5.  Meditation:

My games are designed to be played at the highest level as meditations on
the "calligraphy of the gods" which creates the Nile Delta, and forked
lightning, and family trees, and the branching plot lines of interactive
fiction, and the pathways of the blood down the arm and into the fingers --
and maybe even "parallel universes" -- from one and the same template, one
and the same gesture.

They are in fact "meditations on the many and the one" -- as a friend once
called them.

6.  Coniunctio:

Putting this (and my points about polyphony  and release above) another way:

Like Hesse's fictional game, the HBGs are designed to support the
"coincidence of opposites".  And this "coniunctio" is also a major feature
of Jung's "process of individuation", and pretty much the final point of
any given process of reconciliation within his system (ie within the
"conflicted" individual).

Taken to the limit, it is the ecstatic "Marriage of the Lamb" which Jung
describes in his *Memories Dream Reflections*.

*

Some of that's pretty "elevated" stuff, and much of it depends on what I
think are valid "phiulosophies" of play, psyche, etc..  Bottom line: they
are games, designed to facilitate  associative thinking, and have the
advantages and disadvantages of that style of thought.

Hope this helps, it was certainly good for me to think through and try to
articulate these things.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:19:33 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation/poems

your poems            messeo
   gentle drops falling upon
          a drying plain

            thank you,

              Nnancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:59:05 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
In-Reply-To:  <35870FA5.4FF9@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 06:36 PM 6/16/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>Where did this come from?  Do you understand my words at all?

Tu penses pas?

>  Perhaps if we spoke in French I would have less difficulty with the
transfer of
>concepts.
>
>I'm not afraid of you, nor have I ever said so.  I am afraid of my own
>anger and have said so.  I do not ask you for mental help, I have a
>great psychoanalyst and know better than to others into that place of
>temenos that defines a psychoanalyst/psychoanalysand realtionship.

I am sure you are afraid of your own anger, but I experience you as
seeing me as someone who evokes that anger, and so whom you
express that anger to.

I wonder what you thought my doing your chart would have meant?

>Read your words and re-read mine.  Translate them into German, or
>Spanish, or Danish, or whatever ...

I can only read them in Juliennese

>What is your purpose in these words that you sent to me via this list?
>As well, I would like to know why you asked the question of being
>"parent" to others here.  They also have asked you and you have not
>answered a single request for such that was posed.  Are you really a
>victim here in PSYBER-L?

Without your quoting it, Robert, I don't know what I said about
being a parent. I remember that you compared me to your mother.

As to your other barbs, I shall let them lie.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:50:05 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
In-Reply-To:  <19980617140645.14755.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com>
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On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 07:06:45 -0700, you, meeseo Paik
<ingul@YAHOO.COM>, wrote:

Thank you for the beautiful poetry, Meeseo.

-JoAnne

>...I can't translate my fragmentary thoughts in English properly.
>   Ah,,, suffocating......
>
>****************************
>5-12-98
> ...(omission)
>
>                       (korean sound)
>walking in the pass,(sup gilul gada)
>   stop,(mom-cheo)
>       in silence,(ga-man-hi)
>         smell aromas of briers(cjle ccot ne-um-ul
>                 mattannunde)
>
>!(munduc)
>    on a slender leaf,(ga-nyu-rin ipseyi)
>    like a very small *GLASS BEAD*(jan gusuel moyang- eu)
>    rouge-white round berry.(jinhong-hinbitsche
>                               dongran yoelmega
>               itsutsoe)
>
>    (omission)
>*******************
>
>4-29-98
>
>...(omission)
>
>.sssarrrsssarrrr...
>..it sounds in the center of the woods
>..ssaracssarac ssarrrr
>
>...what?...(muoelcca?)
>...ssssarrrssssarrrr....
>..Ah. sounds of raining...
>....sssarrssarr
>....ssarsar
>...sarsar. s.   r.        s...........
>
>..Ah. no sounds????..
>...where go, sounds?
>...Ah! cool sent of raining...
>          winging rains only for one minute.
>
>********************
>I send sweet aromas of bush's flowers
>               and cool sents of raining to you.
>
>
>Be happy.
>
>Meeseo.
>
>
>
>............
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:49:22 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Julienne,

In my reply to you I said:

> >These words are not about you, or an attack on you.  I carefully used
> >the words about "my hearing" rather than what "you said".  There is an
> >ocean of difference.  I am talking about ME not YOU.  Saying that, I
> >don't want you to think that you don't deserve to be "talked about".
> >What I am saying is that I am talking about ME to YOU.  That is done
> >with *trust* and belief that doing so will give me benefit not pain.

And you replied:

> Well, goody for you. How about my benefit or pain - or doesn't that count?

I repeat.  I speak for me and can only speak for me.  As I must go about
the business of healing my "self" and forgiving my "self" for whatever I
feel needs forgiving, so it is for you.  I am not your healer.  I cannot
take your pain away.  I will not inflict pain on an "other" in name of
your pain (I'm referring here to JoAnne).  There is already too much
pain in the world.  I don't need to exact "justice" through some sense
of "vengence".  Wrongs are committed by ALL, every last one of us who
are human ... that is the definition of "being human".  Casting stones
can only be done by those who have "purity".  That means NO ONE may cast
stones that is "human" for every single one of us is imperfect, each of
us comes with "shadow".  Pain does count ... but not on a scale of
"justice".  It counts as part of our journey. I suffer and I learn.
Honour pain.  Give it a poem.  Give it a name.  Give it music.  Give it
a new flower in a garden.  Give it a hug to a lonely child.  Pain is
that fire which forges.

RGL>Again, I am talking about my reaction and possible roots.  I
identify
RGL>(not well explained) and name the possible projection.  Your words
were
RGL>the "hooks" upon which I was drawn into projection ... your words,
not
RGL>you.  I have not made a single statement about YOU either positive
or
RGL>negative.  I hope that you can see/hear this.
>
JM> Oh sure. I don't have feelings which respond immediately to
experience.
JM> I am a totally rational human being - so when someone suggests I
JM> am passive-aggressive like his mother I just smile knowingly -
JM> therapist-like.  I didn't take a word you said personally.
JM> However, R, it might have helped f you hadn't addressed it to me,
JM> i or, instead of using my name (or initial) had just addressed
JM> what you said to "person", for instance.

Again (getting frustrated) I talk of ME with a right to talk of ME.  I
don't have an obligation to you.  I talk to you because it means
something to me.  I truly hope that in my talking of MY understanding
that we may actually enter into dialogue (See Martin Buber's works:
I-THOU and ON DIALOGUE).  I did preface my remarks about
"passive-aggressive":

RGL> I'm not offering a diagnosis, but I hear
RGL> echoes of passive-agressive (my mother being echoed?).

again -> not a diagnosis!

I say what I hear, not what is the reality of YOU.  That I heard an
"echo" is not a pathological sign.  It is a sign of being more "in
touch" with what are my "triggers".  The use of "J" was not about YOU,
it was about nameing the "Dialogue":

RGL> I am getting angry that this J&J dialogue seems to
RGL> be going in circles in a vat of acid.

When I speak to YOU, I always address you by name, when I speak about
you, I speak about you by name.  There is a difference.  I do wonder why
that difference can't/won't be noticed.  I refuse to depersonalise you,
Julienne.

> Look, if someone were killing me on the street, could I really expect
> standersby to make judgements or take action to stop it? Silly me...if
> I were to.

I found no context for this ... your dialogue of disagreement with
JoAnne has no similarity at all.  Do you need rescuing from JoAnne?  If
you do, say so.  What do you need the rescuing from?  Why?

> >Again, this is not a statement of fact but a perception. All perceptions
> >are just that, perceptions.  I name it as perception "It seems ... as
> >though ..."
>
> Sure, R - quite a distinction.

Julienne, there is a very great distinction between perception named as
perception, and perception named as fact.  As I pointed out and went to
great lengths to provide examples, when it comes to interpersonal
communication, there is very little that is fact/truth ... or, there are
in reality many truths which seem to contradict each other.  Not such a
black and white world.
Julienne, why the sarcasm?  I am trying hard to reach a common
understanding through negotiated dialogue.  Are you interested in such a
"work"?  Or, do you just want to "joust" with words?

RGL>There is no blaming of "person".  There is a statement about my
RGL>"feeling" of discomfort.  I purposely avoided naming a person and
RGL>purposely named a process/event so as to avoid *attacking* an
RGL>individual's psyche (both yours and JoAnne's).  The acidity of the
RGL>dialogues makes my head and heart hurt.
>
JM> Whose acid might that be? And are you the only one with head and
heart?

The DIALOGUES are acidic.  I have not claimed a person to be acidic.  If
a child makes a mistake, that doesn't define the child as *being* a
mistake. If people engage in acidic dialogue, that doesn't define the
people as being acidic, as having hearts of acid.  Where have I said
that either you or JoAnne have no heart or head?  I've read that line
over and over and don't see how that "computes".  All I keep coming up
with is a statement made about me by me.  What are you reading/hearing
here.  Say it, don't just toss off the words with accusation written all
over them.  Be honest and deal with what I actually say. [oh shit, now
comes the storm about "honesty" :)]

> >The reference to the GBG is viewed positively with a hopeful positive
> >outcome. Having "been there", my thanks to these two "gentle" men is
> >real.
>
> "gentle men" as opposed to acidic women?

Whoa!  Where did this link come from.  You are going to great lengths to
attribute statements to me that have NEVER been said or implied.  WHY?

I really do wonder why this dialogue is happening.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:33:16 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Guess :)
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Well. Guys and Gals,

I took the test.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what I am? :)

Just want to see how well image and reality and projection dance together. :)

While I am at it, have any of you ever been tested for Right Brain/Left
Brain strength?

I have...

Julienne

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Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:10:53 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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At 01:49 PM 6/17/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Julienne,

>I repeat.  I speak for me and can only speak for me.  As I must go about
>the business of healing my "self" and forgiving my "self" for whatever I
>feel needs forgiving, so it is for you.  I am not your healer.  I cannot
>take your pain away.  I will not inflict pain on an "other" in name of
>your pain (I'm referring here to JoAnne).  There is already too much
>pain in the world.  I don't need to exact "justice" through some sense
>of "vengence".  Wrongs are committed by ALL, every last one of us who
>are human ... that is the definition of "being human".  Casting stones
>can only be done by those who have "purity".  That means NO ONE may cast
>stones that is "human" for every single one of us is imperfect, each of
>us comes with "shadow".  Pain does count ... but not on a scale of
>"justice".  It counts as part of our journey. I suffer and I learn.
>Honour pain.  Give it a poem.  Give it a name.  Give it music.  Give it
>a new flower in a garden.  Give it a hug to a lonely child.  Pain is
>that fire which forges.

>Again (getting frustrated) I talk of ME with a right to talk of ME.

Ah ha! So...what you said to me you might just as easily have
said to anyone else? Then, please choose someone else
next time you want to vent - or please make it clear that you
are not speaking about me when you connect me with your
mother's passive-aggression, for instance.

>I don't have an obligation to you.

Ah! There we differ. I think I have an obligation to you. I
think we each our brothers' and sisters' keepers.

> I talk to you because it means something to me.  I truly hope
>that in my talking of MY understanding that we may actually
> enter into dialogue (See Martin Buber's works:
>I-THOU and ON DIALOGUE).

Right. Read Buber when I was 16.

> I did preface my remarks about "passive-aggressive":

>RGL> I'm not offering a diagnosis, but I hear
>RGL> echoes of passive-agressive (my mother being echoed?).
>
>again -> not a diagnosis!

And as Freud says - toss the negatives, and then reread the
sentence.

>I say what I hear, not what is the reality of YOU.  That I heard an
>"echo" is not a pathological sign.  It is a sign of being more "in
>touch" with what are my "triggers".  The use of "J" was not about YOU,

>it was about nameing the "Dialogue":

Then why addres it to me?

>RGL> I am getting angry that this J&J dialogue seems to
>RGL> be going in circles in a vat of acid.

Sweet image. Glad it isn't about me. Who is it about?

>When I speak to YOU, I always address you by name, when I speak about
>you, I speak about you by name.  There is a difference.  I do wonder why
>that difference can't/won't be noticed.  I refuse to depersonalise you,
>Julienne.

Is that a Freudian negative again?

>> Look, if someone were killing me on the street, could I really expect
>> standersby to make judgements or take action to stop it? Silly me...if
>> I were to.
>
>I found no context for this ... your dialogue of disagreement with
>JoAnne has no similarity at all.  Do you need rescuing from JoAnne?  If
>you do, say so.  What do you need the rescuing from?  Why?

Yes. The attacks from JoAnne should have been stopped as soon
as they began. With the new guidelines Walter has instituted (thank you,
Walter) - that whole episode would not have been allowed on this list.

>> >Again, this is not a statement of fact but a perception. All perceptions
>> >are just that, perceptions.  I name it as perception "It seems ... as
>> >though ..."

>> Sure, R - quite a distinction.

>Julienne, there is a very great distinction between perception named as
>perception, and perception named as fact.  As I pointed out and went to
>great lengths to provide examples, when it comes to interpersonal
>communication, there is very little that is fact/truth ... or, there are
>in reality many truths which seem to contradict each other.  Not such a
>black and white world.

Exactly - so why, having said there is little distinction, go to such
great lengths to make a distinction? Not a black and white world
at all.

>Julienne, why the sarcasm?  I am trying hard to reach a common
>understanding through negotiated dialogue.  Are you interested in such a
>"work"?  Or, do you just want to "joust" with words?

When you really want to dialogue with me, Robert, you'll
leave out the insinuations, such as that in the above paragraph.

Maybe we should dialogue poetically?

>RGL>There is no blaming of "person".  There is a statement about my
>RGL>"feeling" of discomfort.  I purposely avoided naming a person and
>RGL>purposely named a process/event so as to avoid *attacking* an
>RGL>individual's psyche (both yours and JoAnne's).  The acidity of the
>RGL>dialogues makes my head and heart hurt.

>JM> Whose acid might that be? And are you the only one with head and
>heart?

>The DIALOGUES are acidic.

Sure as hell are. And yet they have been allowed to continue on
here all this time - despite my calls for an end to them.

> I have not claimed a person to be acidic.  If
>a child makes a mistake, that doesn't define the child as *being* a
>mistake. If people engage in acidic dialogue, that doesn't define the
>people as being acidic, as having hearts of acid.  Where have I said
>that either you or JoAnne have no heart or head?  I've read that line
>over and over and don't see how that "computes".  All I keep coming up
>with is a statement made about me by me.  What are you reading/hearing
>here.  Say it, don't just toss off the words with accusation written all
>over them.  Be honest and deal with what I actually say. [oh shit, now
>comes the storm about "honesty" :)]

<Laugh> No, no no. That's JoAnne's schtick - not mine. :) Good
thing you didn't address this to her!!!

>> >The reference to the GBG is viewed positively with a hopeful positive
>> >outcome. Having "been there", my thanks to these two "gentle" men is
>> >real.

>> "gentle men" as opposed to acidic women?

>Whoa!  Where did this link come from.  You are going to great lengths to
>attribute statements to me that have NEVER been said or implied.  WHY?

Oh...it's just that funny little linky mind of mine...:) I can't  *imagine*
how I managed to make such a jump.

>I really do wonder why this dialogue is happening.

Well - there are great mysteries and wonders in this universe, Robert. :)

Aren't we lucky to have each other ? :)

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:59:31 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Guess :) Hurrah!!!

Well, I GUESS I'm happry you took it.  I hope you'll find it helpful.
  If you should want to do a little reading about Jungian types before sharing and don't have something else close at hand, I can recommend David Keirsey's
"Please Understand Me" as very good.
  I don't wanna guess your type.  I  been wrong about this and that now and then, but never quite learned to enjoy it.
  Hurrah for Julienne!
           go with grace,
                Nnancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:37:30 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Acid in the cauldron ... alchemical work is messy
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Julienne,

> Robert. Instead of lecturing me about "my" blindness,
> better to attend to the mote in one's own eye?

????? What are you alluding to with this reference, Julienne?

> Sorry - but you
> have several times treated me as though I were some kind of
> ignorant little girl who never did a day's introspection in her life.

I have asked you to look at our dialogue at the words used and to
understand them using you vast intelligence.  Perhaps you really do
think that I'm some insignificant ant that has the intellect of a flea
and the creativity of a housefly.  You have refused to honour my words
and honour the honest intent to arrive at some communiicative
understanding built upon negotiation.  For me to have tried to do this
with you has been anything but treating you as though you were an
ignorant girl.  Where does this image you have of being an insignificant
girl come from?

> I have dealt with my issues from the time I was a little girl - and
> I find your accusations on this issue probably reflections of your
> own stuff, and I would appreciate your not doing it to me again.

Doing what?  Stop talking in riddles and speak clearly.  What is this
"it" that I'm not supposed to do again?

> Life is about picking sides, taking a stand, making judgements. It's
> called responsibility, Robert. You were quite able to make a
> judgement above that I don't attend to my issues - so I assume
> you're capable of making other judgements as well. When you
> don't want to make a judgement, perhaps you need to look at
> what it is you are avoiding or not wanting to see.

Study the concept of personality types.  I thought you had superior
knowledge about the myraid types of personness.  Each sees and
understands the universe in ways that always accord with others.  No one
way of understanding the universe is correct.  If you really believe
that just your way, your understanding is the correct way, then you have
failed to understand your own profession.  You are constantly making
judgements about everything and everyone and constantly refusing to see
that perhaps you are indeed vindictive, judgemental, egocentric, and
fallible.  Stop blaming the universe for your condition and experience
of life.  Rejoice that you have the grace to be part of this universe in
all its complexity.  Cherish the trials that have been given you as the
creator has found you ready to pass through these and to transcend
these.  Enough of this bemoaning the poor lot of helpless victim.  Stop
clinging so tightly to this "badge" of victimhood.  Rise above it and
claim your rightful place as wise woman.  Open your eyes and see.  Open
your ears and hear.  You can't see that others truly care about you
blinded by your ghosts. You can't hear that others truly care due to the
moans coming from your own lips.  Stop playing games and honour the
"others" that risk touching you with their words here.  You deserve
this.  They/I deserve this.

> *You're* sick of it? Then how do you think I feel about it, R? I tried to
> end it, but was drawn in again by Walter's stated desire to have
> resolution. I am now sorry I opened my mouth.

I think you love it.  You keep at it refusing to let it go.  You search
the cracks between words in search of some invisible allusion that
portends of more abuse being heaped upon the victim called Julienne.
Blame Walter.  Blame me.  Blame JoAnne.  Blame the universe.  Where are
your shadows Julienne.  Do you have no share of this blame that is so
freely given?  I don't think you are sorry, in fact I think you are
pleased with yourself.  On centre stage again.

> You seem to see me as your mother indeed - a Titan who will
> devour Walter and JoAnne, and then come after you with the
> snakes in my hair ablazing! Better run, Robert! Here I come!
> Jesus Christ. Well...my kids call me Wonder Woman - but they
> do that lovingly.

Good show, nice metaphors, and better plagarism :)  You are wonderful at
ignoring words that you don't want to hear/see here.  I don't see you as
my mother.  You are very creative in picking out words without context
in order to suit your creative energies in order to maintain the myth
that everyone is here to victimize you.  You think yourself "Wonder
Woman".  Think again.  You are Julienne, one person within the cauldron
that is PSYBER-L.  A valuable person as is each of us here.  I'm not
running as there is nothing to run from.  I do see you running from
acknowledging ALL of my words as they might deflate the myth so tightly
held to here.

> So you are wrong, wrong, wrong. And maybe you should just
> bugger off. Nothing personal - of course -

Julienne, Julienne, Julienne ... now, now.  Control.

> you want empathy for what you're going through at this time in
> your life - and I offered it to you privately.

And I have mentionned here and to you that I already have a
therapist/analyst. Since you claim to be in this helping/healing
profession, you of course realise that to have another jump into the
"cauldron" is both unethical AND damaging to the process, the work of
the psyche.

>  Where is your empathy for what I'm still going through?

You are trampling on it and pummeling it into oblivion.  Check the
archives, ALL of my posts which are addressed to you.  Perhaps that can
stimlate the amnesia that has suddenly overcome you.

> You underestimate me, R, (since you still insist on calling me J).
> It's so easy to be mean and angry - except that I find it really hard.
> I can't bear to think I am causing someone else pain...because
> I feel it myself -so this is a real exercise for me to do it. I don't
> want to hurt you Robert, and I know you are going through a lot
> in your life now -but so am I - and I am not going to just let you
> use me as your kickball while you ignore my life and my heart.

Get rid of the blinders.  I haven't called you "J".  You are incredibly
rude to keep insisting that I have.  It isn't easy to be angry, but it
seems to make you feel good to get a rise out of me (and others), to
instill anger.  I wonder where this comes from?

> Now - what will you do if I come after you for a third game?
> Are you really scared of me? Good! Serves you bloody right.
> Now let me just run down to my local snake-and-armour
> store to suit up for the battle. Watch out, R! My hair is flying...!!!!!!!

This is tiring.  Such invective from such a "gentle" lady.  You only
harm yourself as you try hurting others.  No, I'm not afraid of your
words.  I've survived much worse and still believe that this universe is
a beautiful place and that it is a good place.  There is no devil except
the ones that torture the "self" from within ... the devil of FEAR.
Come back to planet Earth and speak with me with honesty.

love,

Robert
>
> Julienne
>
> _______________________________________________________________
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Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:57:37 -0600
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Subject:      Acid in the cauldron ... alchemical work is messy - II
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Julienne

> Would you allow me to say something about your chart here, Robert?
> I did it for you, as you requested, but we were never able to go foward
> with it because you had no phone where you are.

You "offered" and I "accepted" the offer.  This is very different from
me "requesting" the chart.  Say what you will.  You not asked permission
to say what you wanted to say before.  I have few secrets here.  I tend
to have poor boundaries and to be too transparent here in PYSBER-L ...
enough people here are very aware of that.  Whatever you have in that
magical bag of "astrology" is nothing that I need to keep a secret.

> I was startled the other
> day when you said to me agrily, "Are you my therapist?" What do you
> think an astrologer does?

Astrology, not therapy.  I didn't realise that astrologists were
recognised by any state as licensed psychotherapists.  I am an executive
director of the provincial counselling organisation (similar to "state")
and there isn't a single astrologist registered for work in this field.
Perhaps I should send invites to our unrepresented astrologists.

I don't understand the world of astrology all that well.  I realise that
there have been (and are) analysts and therapists who also have great
skill with this domaine of knowledge.  I have yet to hear from any of
these that the two are synonymous.

I respect the astrologists that I know for their craft.  Some of those
who claim to be astrologists are phonies just like some who claim to be
therapists are phonies.  In the profession there is an attempt to cut
down on the phonies by requiring "certification".  Again.  There is no
ethical way to intrude into an existing analyst-analysand relationship.
Therapists know this and respect this.  Again.  You are not my
therapist.  Please understand this.  The relationship between client and
therapist is sacred.  Respect that sacredness.


> I didn't say you hated me, Robert. But I do feel very strong feelings
> on this list, and some of them seem to me very rage-filled.

Read your words.  Read my words.  You are in a state of denying what has
happened here.  When your done reading, read again and take notes ...
examin your words and wonder what they mean.

> There is a difference between being concerned and paying attention.
> The building of the GBG is not necessarily proof of that at all. The GBG
> can be just an intellectual exercise, or a curiousity - it all depends on
> who does it and why - what reasons and motives they have for going
> into it.

The reasons have been stated.  Why don't you hear them?  The words of
caring are there.  The words of concern are there.  Why do you think it
is just some intellectual exercize?  What are YOUR notives for being
part of the GBG?  Will you honestly admit them?  Perhaps you don't know
... and that is okay if it is real and not just a means of concealing
your true agenda.  Only you know.  Why are you so quick to "doubt"
others, the integrity of others?

>  As an educator, as a consellor, I know that "truth" is

Your the only person I have met who "knows".  Most that I know
(educators and counsellors of which I am one - and a highly qualified
one at that) still struggle with "truth".  I've noticed that this has
even been a matter of discussion here.  Where was your final word to
settle this questing for "truth" which would give such great relief for
those questing?

> Aha! But only JoAnne and you have called her evil, Robert. I
> didn't call her that - although she loves to repeat it - with the
> effect that you now apparently believe that I did call her evil

The intent, Julienne.  Though I used the word, even JoAnne knows that I
truly don't see here as "evil".  I have been physically abused for many
years, emotionally abused, verbally abuse, sexually abused ... yet, I
don't believe those who abused me were "evil".  I don't think they were
happy or healthy people.  I know that they held more pain than they
could hold.  But, I also know that there was much good about these
people.  You're not evil either :)

> Walter as a *threat* is your interpretation. It was Charles
> suggestion that Walter and I do the game, and I was actually happy
> at the possibility of better communicatioon with Walter. As for the rest -
> I don't know what to say. It feels like I am being asked to defend
> against accusations of being green. That's your stuff, Robert - not mine.

Did you or did you not speak at great length about your concern about
Walter being in some position of power because you felt that he would be
"mean" to you, because you felt he had been "mean" to you?  As I read
Charles' responses which served to "calm" apparent "fears", I also read
your recurrent concerns that needed again and again needed to be set to
rest.  It appeared that you did want to depotentiate all of Walter's
powers here as listowner and co-GBG host.  Not my interpretation,
Julienne ... again read your own words (or are you allergic to them?).

> Then why on earth did you bring in the idea of the games as
> competition and war? This was all your stuff, Robert - not mine.

Read the post again.  What are the actual words and what are your
carefully constructed extension, alterations of the that text?  Then, go
back and read "your" posts which serve as the source for my comments ...
I forgot, you don't do that kind of research.

> >Julienne, I can't answer these questions as they seem fully out of
> >context and not part of my experience here.  The question of "hurt" does
> >have a place here.  I wonder how much you have thought about
> >"projections" and "hooks", about "transference" and
> >"counter-transference"?  This is a psychological space, a therapeutic
> >space, a place of the psyche.  These things are alive and operational
> >here.  It is necessary to study oneself and one's dialogue with these
> >concepts every ready for understanding what is happening.  Or, to
> >question what has happened.
>
> You're speaking down to me again, Robert.

If I am, then I expect you to operate and converse with your
"knowledge".  No cop-outs with sarcastic quips.  No crying "wolf!".  Act
the professional and enter dialogue with dignity for yourself and for
the "other(s)".

> Then talk to me Robert - ask me questions, but stop venting
> and accusing.

I've been doing that, but you haven't been doing me the honour of
"listening". If you are ready to engage in "authentic" dialogue, I will
join in that dialogue with you.  The door is open ....

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Jun 1998 23:20:14 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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Meeseo,

Each time I see a post from you I think of those pictures you sent me.
Those pictures were visual poetry for me.  They broke through any
barrier of language and touched me.

> I am sorry not to express my concerns more early.
> But I always dreamed of getting much better, as for you.
> In my imagination,
> you are weak but strong,
>    floating but stable like a huge rock in mind.

There is no apology needed.  I don't need to always have this voiced.  I
know that the concern is there, I know that the respect is there, I know
that you give honour to my words.  That is more than enough :)

> ...I can't translate my fragmentary thoughts in English properly.
>    Ah,,, suffocating......

I think I need to learn Korean.  I will try and speak a few words of
your language in order to give you the honour you deserve.

> walking in the pass,(sup gilul gada)
>    stop,(mom-cheo)
>        in silence,(ga-man-hi)
>          smell aromas of briers(cjle ccot ne-um-ul
>                  mattannunde)

I see ... silk and slippers (moccasins of leather)
I hear ... the scrape of foot on stone and the bending of grasses
           maturing as footsteps crush
I sense ... the pause, the pulse of heart and the flow of breath
I hear ... wind held still
I smell ... pungent greens, tantalizing, teasing
I feel ... alive in the context of being in relation to the "otherness"

Meeseo, your words talk to me and tell me things; they do more than
talk, they paint pictures for me; they do more than paint pictures, they
touch all of my senses.  There is no sense of communication missed ...
but then again if I did miss it, I wouldn't know that :)


> I send sweet aromas of bush's flowers
>                and cool sents of raining to you.
>
> Be happy.

You add to my happiness.  For this I pray that you are blessed and
gifted with moments of peace.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 01:48:11 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble..hehehe
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At 09:37 PM 6/17/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Julienne,
and then a whole lot of other stuff.

Let's quit.  I don't think it's getting anywhere - and we're just being silly.

Let's go back to being our better selves...

Furthermore - they couldn't get a shipment of snakes in on time for me
anyway.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:04:18 -0600
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Subject:      Re: Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble..hehehe
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Julienne

> Let's quit.  I don't think it's getting anywhere - and we're just being silly.
>
> Let's go back to being our better selves...
>
> Furthermore - they couldn't get a shipment of snakes in on time for me

Agreed!  :)  I'm looking forward to putting the shadows away and letting
the light coming out to play.

love,

Robert

PS  Sleep well, Julienne.  I truly care about you and everyone that
shares this place with us.  A demain :)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:34:30 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Acid in the cauldron ... alchemical work is messy - II
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At 10:57 PM 6/17/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Julienne
>
>> Would you allow me to say something about your chart here, Robert?
>> I did it for you, as you requested, but we were never able to go foward
>> with it because you had no phone where you are.
>
>You "offered" and I "accepted" the offer.  This is very different from
>me "requesting" the chart.

I offered to do what I could to help, and you accepted, and I then
prepared the chart you requested.

>Say what you will.  You not asked permission
>to say what you wanted to say before.  I have few secrets here.  I tend
>to have poor boundaries and to be too transparent here in PYSBER-L ...
>enough people here are very aware of that.  Whatever you have in that
>magical bag of "astrology" is nothing that I need to keep a secret.

>> I was startled the other day when you said to me agrily, "Are you
>>my therapist?" What do you think an astrologer does?

>Astrology, not therapy.  I didn't realise that astrologists were
>recognised by any state as licensed psychotherapists.  I am an executive
>director of the provincial counselling organisation (similar to "state")
>and there isn't a single astrologist registered for work in this field.
>Perhaps I should send invites to our unrepresented astrologists.

Apparently my offer was a mistake, Robert. Astrologers (not "ists"
are not psychotherapists, nor are many other people who do other
types of therapy.  I am also a certified hypnotherapist, and am
certified to do a number of other healing therapies.

>I don't understand the world of astrology all that well.  I realise that
>there have been (and are) analysts and therapists who also have great
>skill with this domaine of knowledge.  I have yet to hear from any of
>these that the two are synonymous.

Astrology is the UR psychology, Robert.  Read Shakespeare and
so many authors. It was the astrologers who were first concerned with
understanding the psyche and the interaction between personality
and life events, between psyche and health, etc.

>I respect the astrologists that I know for their craft.  Some of those
>who claim to be astrologists are phonies just like some who claim to be
>therapists are phonies.  In the profession there is an attempt to cut
>down on the phonies by requiring "certification".  Again.  There is no
>ethical way to intrude into an existing analyst-analysand relationship.

>Therapists know this and respect this.  Again.  You are not my
>therapist.  Please understand this.  The relationship between client and
>therapist is sacred.  Respect that sacredness.

Robert, you're being a little strange. I offered months ago, and you
indicated that your problem was that you didn't have a phone where
you were, so I left it to you to let me know when and if I would do
it for you. We haven't mentioned it since. If you feel your sacredness,
etc., is not being respected I suggest you discuss that fear with
your therapist.

All you had to say was that you didn't want me to do your chart
Robert. I assure you I won't offer again.

However your suggestion that there be a one-on-one-and-only-one
relationship between any person and therapy is not a universally
accepted approach, and I have worked hand-in-hand with
many health professionals, including psychiatrists, through the
years.

Rp>>  As an educator, as a consellor, I know that "truth" is

Ro>Your the only person I have met who "knows".  Most that I know
>(educators and counsellors of which I am one - and a highly qualified
>one at that) still struggle with "truth".  I've noticed that this has
>even been a matter of discussion here.  Where was your final word to
>settle this questing for "truth" which would give such great relief for
>those questing?

Do you realize, Robert, that your quote above:

>>As an educator, as a counselor, I know that "truth" is...

is a quotation of yourself speaking? You have just accused me of
claiming that  I am the only person you have met who "knows" - but
it was you who made the statement. Those are your words which
you attack, not mine.


>> Then talk to me Robert - ask me questions, but stop venting
>> and accusing.

>I've been doing that, but you haven't been doing me the honour of
>"listening". If you are ready to engage in "authentic" dialogue, I will
>join in that dialogue with you.  The door is open ....

I'm afraid, Robert, that gently, and with regret, I must close the
door. I have deleted the rest of your post, because I don't think
it is a good idea to go any further with this. I wish you well.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:00:59 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: The sound of music and the Underworld

to robert and others
            going with grace

     while speaking to a friend
            among friends
             Sleep called.
             being  weary
                 i went
   leaving the friend to wonder
    among friends wondering...
      waking now i wonder
  about the friends   wondering...
     and hope we are all right

                nancY

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:56:16 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Participation

On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:52:35 +0100, Simon G. Trask  wrote:

>Not to make a habit of this at all, but this post just now from the
>Bohm_Dialogue list is pretty cool for here now. It's from Donald Factor,
>who wrote the introduction to Bohm's 'Unfolding Meaning'.
>
>Simon
>
>-------
>
>Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:23:51 -0400
>From: Donald Factor <DonFactor@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: participation
>
>
>Here's what I think.
>
>Following Bohm, we live in a participatory universe. If this is the case
>then all that occurs is participatory - between the whole and sub-wholes,
>possible other wholes!!, sub-wholes and other sub-wholes and maybe even a
>few black wholes. In other words, there is now way out of it. (He also used
>to say that 'everything is internally connected.') Bohm used to also make a
>distinction between the two meanings of the word 'participate'. It means
>'to partake of ' and also 'to take part in'. That is, like the yin and yang
>of the I Ching, there is an active and a receptive side to participation.

---------
>Passion, it seems to me, represents one side, probably the receptive.
--------
N: I have 'lifted' the above sentence out as you see.  It seems to me to be a
good representation of what I see as Patriarchal thinking's continuing difficulty
in admitting the feminine to the current world of thought.
  Is a man not passionate when love making?  Is love making a primarily feminine
concern?  Is not  man 'participatory', 'passionate' and 'yang' during love making?
  Jungians seem to me the most willing of modern groups to pursue a 'conjuntio' of yin and yang, feminine and masculine  in that rational realm of feeling and thinks.  Yet even among us there seems to persist an unconscious merging that
says women feel, love, are emotional while men think, wage, and remain calm.
We all 'know' this isn't so, yet at some 'gut' level these notions seem to presist and muddle our 'rationality'.
  My presentation of this notion may be flawed...out of context with Simon's ongoing exploration of Bohm, but do you'all get the gist?
       nancy S
-------
>Perhaps suspension is a part of that same side. But full participation
>requires the active side too, otherwise what would we suspend? Without a
>dynamic tension of some sort we would all, I suspect simply sink into the
>cosmic mush. And I don't think that's the sort of coherence we are talking
>about.
>
>Don
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:16:45 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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Julienne, Hoon,

Julienne wrote to HooN in response to his earlier post ...
> Hoon, thank you from the bottom of my heart for what you wrote. I can't
> answer now - too emotional, but I will.

I can understand your feelings Julienne, I thought Hoon wrote a
beautiful post.   I am sure I will return to it for inspiration
for both honesty, clarity, and empathy.  Good to see this depth
of connection happening.

Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:28:27 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Participation
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At 08:56 AM 6/18/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:52:35 +0100, Simon G. Trask  wrote:
>
>>Not to make a habit of this at all, but this post just now from the
>>Bohm_Dialogue list is pretty cool for here now. It's from Donald Factor,
>>who wrote the introduction to Bohm's 'Unfolding Meaning'.

>>Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 11:23:51 -0400
>>From: Donald Factor <DonFactor@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Re: participation

>>Here's what I think.
>>
>>Following Bohm, we live in a participatory universe. If this is the case
>>then all that occurs is participatory - between the whole and sub-wholes,
>>possible other wholes!!, sub-wholes and other sub-wholes and maybe even a
>>few black wholes. In other words, there is now way out of it. (He also used
>>to say that 'everything is internally connected.') Bohm used to also make a
>>distinction between the two meanings of the word 'participate'. It means
>>'to partake of ' and also 'to take part in'. That is, like the yin and yang
>>of the I Ching, there is an active and a receptive side to participation.
>---------
>>Passion, it seems to me, represents one side, probably the receptive.

>N: I have 'lifted' the above sentence out as you see.  It seems to me to be a
>good representation of what I see as Patriarchal thinking's continuing
difficulty
>in admitting the feminine to the current world of thought.
>  Is a man not passionate when love making?  Is love making a primarily
feminine
>concern?  Is not  man 'participatory', 'passionate' and 'yang' during love
making?
>  Jungians seem to me the most willing of modern groups to pursue a
'conjuntio' of yin and yang, feminine and masculine  in that rational realm
of feeling and thinks.  Yet even among us there seems to persist an
unconscious merging that
>says women feel, love, are emotional while men think, wage, and remain calm.
>We all 'know' this isn't so, yet at some 'gut' level these notions seem to
presist and muddle our 'rationality'.
>  My presentation of this notion may be flawed...out of context with
Simon's ongoing exploration of Bohm, but do you'all get the gist?
>       nancy S

Absolutely, Nancy.

However, so much of that "passion" in men is denied and we see, in football
players, for example, and many other sports  figures and even men in less
physical professions, how passion is downgraded into purely physical
connections or interpretations of events.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:05:13 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sound of music and the Underworld
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Nancy

>      while speaking to a friend
>             among friends
>              Sleep called.
>              being  weary
>                  i went
>    leaving the friend to wonder
>     among friends wondering...
>       waking now i wonder
>   about the friends   wondering...
>      and hope we are all right
>
>                 nancY

Waking, I feel only shame
  for the words
    for the anger
      for the desperation
        for the abuse

        is this "friend"
      or is this "foe"
    "shadow" let loose
  biting those who
should be comforted

shame, sadness, silence

R.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:43:18 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      serving intention
In-Reply-To:  <v03110700b1aafc1e2365@[195.200.19.86]>
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>is intention best served by
>spontaneity or deliberation?
>
>
>Simon

Are those my only choices? :-)  (What if they were?)

***

I'd like to learn more about what you feel about this, Simon. What was
cooking to inspire you to offer spontaneity and deliberation *besides*
their being somewhat polar catagories?

***

best,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:40:45 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: communion, a first reaction

Julienne                   Robert
       generous hearts both

  Take my hand(s)
  I'm a stranger in paradise...

  I don't cry often, but I am crying now        unashamed....

  Now perhaps I can try to post my dream.

     nancyS

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:56:29 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: The sound of music and the Underworld
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parsing Nancy and Robert,

(forgive me! You two inspired me...)

***

                speaking to

                Sleep

being weary

                        leaving the friend

wondering...waking
                        wondering...

we are all

Waking,         I feel

only words
                        desperation

                        comforted

                silence

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:00:42 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: dream
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c Nancy Smith, 7:17 am  Wed. June 17, 1998
a dream fragment (recorded around 9am Sunday, June 14, 1998)

  I was in the cooking/business area of a small restaurant.  This area was a=
t one end
of the room with no walls dividing it from the dining area.  I was trying to=
 tidy up.
A man admonished me for not having kept up with the laundry.(1)
  I continued to tidy, sorting the files at my desk, wondering what to leave=
 for my
successor. (2)
  Then, turning from tidying, I gathered food on my tray.(3) I and a male co=
mpanion (4)
carried our trays toward the small table area.  We were accompanied by a hos=
tess.(5)
  We passed by four or five small tables, some square for four people, some =
rectangular
for two. Our table choice was mine to make.  I wavered between a small squar=
e table in
a shadowed corner to the far left, and a large round table (capable of seati=
ng 8 or
more) in the mid-back of the dining area.
  The round table was bathed in sunlight shining through a dusty glass door =
to the
right.  The door led to a lovely small, wall-enclosed garden.  In it were ma=
ny green
bushes and plants, a filigree of vines on the wall, and three or four bushes=
 of pink
tea roses (6) scattered among the green.  I thought my companion and I would=
 be more
comfortable in the shadowed corner.  But the hostess indicated that we might=
 take the
round table.  I was pleased.  The more so as we sat down and I discovered th=
at it was a
magic table which shrank just right for the two of us, yet retained the abil=
ity to
enlarge to welcome any who might join us.  The sunlight bathed us without ov=
erheating
or shining in the eyes of either.

Perceptions regarding this Psyber-dream:

1) An animus reflecting my reaction to Walter=92s words (Sun, 3 May 1998  02=
:03:35) as I
just joined the list.  There I was, all bouncily eager
with hopeful friendliness.  There he came, after a word of greeting, relativ=
ely
ponderous, =91coaching=92, admonishing...like a parent fearful a new child i=
n the
play-group would somehow damage the structure.  As patriachy
moved in, what happened to the feminine?  This one withdrew for a month
during which only her unconscious Self was able to even take in his
words.  Was he wrong? Not entirely. Was I? Not entirely.  Certainly we
were ill attuned to one another. I learn today that he is INFJ to my INFP.
I have a =91closure=92 allergy, perhaps from being born into a home where th=
ere existed
too much predetermined =91closure=92.
2) In my metaphorical dream encyclopedia this refers to the sleeping me
of early Sunday leaving Psyber work in order for the me of later, waking Sun=
day.
3) I refer you to Nathan Schwartz-Salant=92s book on Narcissistic Character =
Disorder (I
think.  Can=92t find my copy) wherein he speaks of words as food.
4) A positive animus figure, always with me, but in this case influenced
by Simon (who responded to my initial bumbling with comforting email.) and R=
obert
(gracious welcome of 3 Jun 98 8:28:16. Am I noisy enough for you yet, R?).  =
Both meant
a lot to me as I fought off my own dragons and tried to be born into this sp=
ace.
5) A positive shadow figure influenced by Dolores (who gave so many tantaliz=
ing glimpes
of herself 4/30/98) and Judith (who announced my engagement and tried to unm=
uddle me
Sat, 2 May 98 12:32:06).
6) My post to Judith (Sat. 13 Jun 98 16:50:29)with which my psyche was quite=
 pleased;
it=92s a lovely garden, just right.  She received my words into her open min=
d as
=91foreign=92.  I suspect she thought I=92d let Purple (people eater) loose =
at my
keyboard.

  Of the dream I entrust the other, more collective images and symbols to yo=
ur own
competent psyches.  All have their own meaning for me.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:52:18 -0500
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>Which begs the question, Which experience, inner or outer is more "real"?

John,

'experience of the outer [reality]' is an inner experience or not?

***

"In a shamantic trance one can share his inner experience with another
person in a similar shamanic trance."

So some would *say*!

Alternately, in such shared trance states there is much less mutual
filtering of data. In other words, if I and another are in a trance state,
my experience isn't that I am experiencing the person's inner reality or
directly sharing their experience, but that I have access to a lot more
information about their inner state and so my inferences and intuitions
tend to be more acutely accurate.

Of course, one can tell a lot just from not filtering so much.
Interpretation is a filter too.

***

best to all,

HooN

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Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:03:22 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Participation; question for judith
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Judith,

hey gotta question oh wildone,

Since most problems cannot be adequately resolved or transformed on the
level at which they are created, then howcome we try so hard to solve them
on the very level they're sourced at?

What drives our intention so hopelessly?

***

spin it your internal mayancougar willya?

***

salaam,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:28:25 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Participation; question for judith
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At 02:03 PM 6/18/98 -0500, Hoon wrote:
>Judith,
>
>hey gotta question oh wildone,
>
>Since most problems cannot be adequately resolved or transformed on the
>level at which they are created, then howcome we try so hard to solve them
>on the very level they're sourced at?
>
>What drives our intention so hopelessly?

I know you didn't ask me, Hoon, but...

The problem is that we are sooooooo unconscious. We think we're
being so intellectual and wise, when really it's our little psyches
screaming out with the wiring laid down in our psyches, our body
 tissues, especially in the first year or two of life - and that includes
the period in utero.

Plus - we're not really arguing with each other - but with Mum, or
Dad, or whomever triggered whatever we're on about now.

That's the brief answer.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:56:07 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: The sound of music and the Underworld

shame        HooN i liked
               is your foe               what you did
            I believe                        with out words
               Robert                      you  can wit
                    be                       at our table
                      comforted       any day
                                 Nnancy


     Which makes me wonder: might empathy breach the
   vas           as  much as                authoritative protection?
                        typos became intended

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:04:40 -0500
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From:         Tim <tigu@GTE.NET>
Subject:      Re: Participation; question for judith
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        Hoon wrote:

>Since most problems cannot be adequately resolved or transformed on the
>level at which they are created, then howcome we try so hard to solve them
>on the very level they're sourced at?
>
>What drives our intention so hopelessly?


        Perhaps the constant "trying" inside of a particular paradigm....the
repetitious attempts to form our lives....the pulsating rhythm, densifies
our experience within our "sphere" until we are able to "walk" on top of all
the "failures" across the boundary to a "popped out" paradigm.   As for the
"why" of the question.......my mind can come up with lots of juicy
intellectualizations.  Or, I could stick with the "what" of the "drive"
experience.......and watch it in the second.  Who cares why?

Wondering..... can a drive ever really be hopeless?  The drive certainly
would disagree....:)


                                Tim

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:49:31 +0300
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From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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Peace to all of you, and especially to Julienne and Robert,


"Peace, and be at peace with your thoughts and visions.
These things had to come to you and you to accept them.
This is your share of the eternal burden,
The perpetual glory. This is one moment,
But know that another
Shall pierce you with a sudden painful joy
When the figure of God's purpose is made complete.
You shall forget these things, toiling in the household,
You shall remember them, droning by the fire,
When age and forgetfulness sweeten memory
Only like a dream that has often been told
And often been changed in the telling. They will seem unreal.
Human kind cannot bear very much reality."
<T.S.Eliot: The Complete Poems and Plays, 1st ed., pp. 208-209.

Anita

Ps. Nancy, you wrote:.
>Is a man not passionate when love making?  Is love making a primarily feminine
>concern?  Is not  man 'participatory', 'passionate' and 'yang' during love
making?
A big love-making   feast , Midsummer ( St. John's)  Eve  will be tomorrow
Finland.  To celebrate it,  we ( almost all Finnish)  go to Sauna, burn
bonfires, dance, become intoxicated with light, get drunk and make love.
    As to passions. Someone has said:  "depression is  anger  without
passion."  To my experience   a man is  more passionate ( receptive?) both
in love and anger.

Cheers!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:13:17 -0700
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From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
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---Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:
>
> Julienne, Hoon,
>
> Julienne wrote to HooN in response to his earlier post ...
> > Hoon, thank you from the bottom of my heart for what you wrote. I
can't
> > answer now - too emotional, but I will.
>
> I can understand your feelings Julienne, I thought Hoon wrote a
> beautiful post.   I am sure I will return to it for inspiration
> for both honesty, clarity, and empathy.  Good to see this depth
> of connection happening.
>
> Walter
>


 Tears are running down my cheeks..
 ***Water said "I can understand your feeling Julienne."

Me too.

meeseo.
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:26:42 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG:True reconciliation
In-Reply-To:  <19980618221317.12.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com>
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At 03:13 PM 6/18/98 -0700, you wrote:
>---Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:
>>
>> Julienne, Hoon,
>>
>> Julienne wrote to HooN in response to his earlier post ...
>> > Hoon, thank you from the bottom of my heart for what you wrote. I
>can't
>> > answer now - too emotional, but I will.
>>
>> I can understand your feelings Julienne, I thought Hoon wrote a
>> beautiful post.   I am sure I will return to it for inspiration
>> for both honesty, clarity, and empathy.  Good to see this depth
>> of connection happening.
>>
>> Walter



> Tears are running down my cheeks..
> ***Water said "I can understand your feeling Julienne."

>Me too.

>meeseo.

Me, too...Meeseo. The tears as well...

Love,

Julienne

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Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:42:49 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Guess :)
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Julienne,

>Well. Guys and Gals,
>
>I took the test.
>
>Anyone want to hazard a guess as to what I am? :)
>
>Just want to see how well image and reality and projection dance together. :)
>
>While I am at it, have any of you ever been tested for Right Brain/Left
>Brain strength?

I did years back, I can't remember which test it was...came back *balanced*
which surprised a whole bunch of people...;-)
judith
>
>I have...
>
>Julienne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:28:48 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Passion and Gender
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Anita,

> Peace to all of you, and especially to Julienne and Robert,

Thank you, Anita.  Thanks as well for the T.S. Eliot poem.

Robert

PS.  Passion?  Not limited to a gender.  Passion has both a carnal and a
spiritual nature for me.  It's amazing how at the heights of passion one
touches a state of Zen rapture ... when the self, for a moment,
disappears.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:20:07 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Participation; question for judith
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Hoon...

fresh from a night of astounding thunder...well maybe fresh isn't the
correct word not much sleep...awed...there's that word again...


>Judith,
>
>hey gotta question oh wildone,
>
>Since most problems cannot be adequately resolved or transformed on the
>level at which they are created, then howcome we try so hard to solve them
>on the very level they're sourced at?
>
>What drives our intention so hopelessly?

>***
>
>spin it your internal mayancougar willya?

Well, my cougar has taken a much needed respite from his vigilence in my
life of late howeer...He taught me to have a grand story for my life, a
story uniquely mine, to see it's vastness, feel its enrichment, sense it's
spaciousness, and to embrace the mystery...one consequence of a smaller
view is myopia leading to an an impoverished life of traveling the same
road over and over again...enlarge my view of my journey and all sorts of
forks and side streets in the road appear expanding my sense of choice
which brings me to more and more of my story which expands my sense of
choice which brings me to more and more...

Yesterday I had a session with the medical intuitive I work with and was
gifted with a huge piece of my story I had glimpses of but could never
quite see, I could see how it played out in my life but my limited view of
my story closed down my vision keeping me from seeing from a more expansive
place...and this myopia informed the way I have been in the world around an
issue...leading to My Gerble Track Syndrom...now I get to go out into my
life and see what new roads appear...

Plus there is a truism...the more conscious one becomes of one's story, the
less slack one is cut in living it out...sort of the ignorance of the law
is not a defense idea...and in my experience the cosmic bricks get larger
so the ability to duck is a good life skill to develop :-)

Judith purrrrrring

>***
>
>salaam,
>
>HooN

>
>_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:34:37 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Participation; question for judith
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At 10:20 AM 6/19/98 -0400, Judith wrote:
>Hoon...
>
>fresh from a night of astounding thunder...well maybe fresh isn't the
>correct word not much sleep...awed...there's that word again...
>
>
>>Judith,
>>
>>hey gotta question oh wildone,
>>
>>Since most problems cannot be adequately resolved or transformed on the
>>level at which they are created, then howcome we try so hard to solve them
>>on the very level they're sourced at?
>>
>>What drives our intention so hopelessly?
>
>>***
>>
>>spin it your internal mayancougar willya?
>
>Well, my cougar has taken a much needed respite from his vigilence in my
>life of late howeer...He taught me to have a grand story for my life, a
>story uniquely mine, to see it's vastness, feel its enrichment, sense it's
>spaciousness, and to embrace the mystery...one consequence of a smaller
>view is myopia leading to an an impoverished life of traveling the same
>road over and over again...enlarge my view of my journey and all sorts of
>forks and side streets in the road appear expanding my sense of choice
>which brings me to more and more of my story which expands my sense of
>choice which brings me to more and more...
>
>Yesterday I had a session with the medical intuitive I work with and was
>gifted with a huge piece of my story I had glimpses of but could never
>quite see, I could see how it played out in my life but my limited view of
>my story closed down my vision keeping me from seeing from a more expansive
>place...and this myopia informed the way I have been in the world around an
>issue...leading to My Gerble Track Syndrom...now I get to go out into my
>life and see what new roads appear...
>
>Plus there is a truism...the more conscious one becomes of one's story, the
>less slack one is cut in living it out...sort of the ignorance of the law
>is not a defense idea...and in my experience the cosmic bricks get larger
>so the ability to duck is a good life skill to develop :-)
>
>Judith purrrrrring
>
>>***
>>
>>salaam,
>>
>>HooN

Oh my! HooN and Judith speak the same language! :)

Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:17:05 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      football and passion
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all,

I started 10th grade in a new, private school for men only. I hoped very
much that my lackluster football career in public school would translate
into a bit more than the low profile I had attained in 9th grade when I was
the second halfback off the bench. I enjoyed football.

With this glittering ambition I proceeded to work very hard through summer
practice in the 90 degree heat, and to even briefly obtain a starting
position on the junior varsity until my nadir was reached one autumnal
afternoon when, after intercepting a pass, I was summarily stripped of the
ball by the end who's  reception I had just purloined, and this
repossession soon became a touchdown for the opponent. Flustered, I went
into the next defensive series until the coach pulled me out of the game
and shouted as to me as I sat my self down on the bench (there, again!)
"Calhoun, I'm sick of watching you dance around like a ballerina!"

At the end of the season the head coach addressed the assembled j.v. and
varsity teams to tell them that, fundamentally, 'in seeing our faith in
each other he recognized some of the keys to his own life,' and then, (and
I edit his emotional remarks,) he said:

        "Faith? What is that? I learned how to have faith in God in the
        Marine Corps. Football showed me how to sustain my faith in God.
        Those two experiences of faith and, faith tested, saved my life,
        Faith allowed me to be a good father and a husband."

He then broke down into tears. (I was sitting in the back of the locker
room leaning up against the wall with my good friend Greg sitting next to
me. When the coach, a big baldheaded guy, started crying, Greg looked at
me, I looked at Greg, and we both mouthed the same words: "Next year, it's
cross-country.")

***

Life is more complicated than our catagories, yes?

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:17:55 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      love tears meeseo
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>
> Tears are running down my cheeks..
> ***Water said "I can understand your feeling Julienne."
>
>Me too.
>
>meeseo.

I feel the rain, Meeseo.

I knew someday this recounting would be appropriate.
Love Tears

We'd play very hard
win, lose, have
fierce arguements
over nothing then
we'd all go out,
buy each other
rounds of cheap beer
make up stories,
exaggerate, tell
dirty jokes.
At some point I'd
get up and walk through
the noisy throng, swing
the tired door and
always pick
an empty stall.
...and I'd hear
the pissing, and think
of the sloppy joy making,
visions of great white
thunderheads, ecstatic,
reaching up becoming
filled with rain.
In this nightspot
the heavenly hosts
and their toasts would
pour into my heart and
my tears would flow, feeling
the great billowing crowd,
human, reaching up,
becoming here,
here to love.

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:30:11 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: football and passion/cat-agore-ickly

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:17:05 -0500, sc  wrote ">":
  Thanks for being       Hoon


>, ...private   ...         public ...

>***
>
>Life is more complicated than our catagories, yes?
>
>***
N: Then we must expand our catagories, nes paz?

  nancy
  hasting off to have lunch with a novelist friend

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:34:55 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: love tears meeseo
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Psyberians, all,

Meeseo's tears, Judith's tears, HooN's tears, Nancy's tears, and those
of Julienne's, and those of mine, and, all those that are silent ...
it's been raining here with moments of pause this week here in Calgary
... there are moments when the sun breaks through to remind me that out
of the darkness is light ... the clouds, the thunder, the rain -- and
above all this light which blends into All That Is ... love tears?  Yes
HooN, love tears ... tears of hope and forgiveness, forgiving self for
being flawed and fearful ... and the work of alchemy continues its
transformational process, a love process ...

mea culpa

R.

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:40:02 -0600
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Nancy, HooN,

H: > Life is more complicated than our catagories, yes?
N: > Then we must expand our catagories, nes paz?

Until we have as many categories as there are humans
Until we return to the category of ONE.

Robert
   thinking maybe it's time for a late breakfast
   not wanting to eat alone

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:44:41 -0600
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HooN,

> I looked at Greg, and we both mouthed the same words:
> "Next year, it's cross-country.")

And?  Did you indeed run cross-country in grade 11?

I played some (stress the *some*) football in grade 9 and began
cross-country in grade 10 ... I last ran a cross-country race two years
ago and finished dead last and that was very okay ...  :)

Robert
   who has just bought new runners
   learning to run again

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:09:33 -0500
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Subject:      incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
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Judith writes,

>
>fresh from a night of astounding thunder...well maybe fresh isn't the
>correct word not much sleep...awed...there's that word again...
>

light and sound symphony, yes...

***
>>
>>What drives our intention so hopelessly?
>

excuse the snip,

>which brings me to more and more of my story which expands my sense of
>choice which brings me to more and more...

and Nancy wrote, and it has been burning for me,

N: there is an ant mind/nature in each of us.  That is why we stay in line.
The lump of salt and its incipient burn in our minds, seems less when we
are together. The dark night of our most individual being can be a lonely
place.

***

I'm tossing some shiny spinning balls in the air along with all the shapes
-burning- and -stories- and -being- and -lonely- may bring forth. Those
balls are *separation*, *deprivation*, *revelation*.

Jung: "...for always the ardour of love transmutes fear and compulsion into
a higher free type of feeling."

***

Is this ant story compulsive marching? Smart enough to avoid being burned?
This makes sense to me: a constrained, predictable story safe enough to
march around the big "salty" story, its *incipient burn* (marvelous!) and
so it is the pattern might be extremely unproductive, etc. but it is
paradoxically safe as well as not very workable.

Hopeless intention, indeed; (there's a paradox!)

To separate out of the 'line', (the course of least resistance,) is an act
of lonely-making. Nancy, if I might leap to connect your greatandgraceful
with the cougar Judith,

        *My most individual being brings me
        more and more and more of my story.
        It is a lonely place.*

***

It can be as James Hillman has written:

"Before connection is possible, psyche goes through the dark night of the
soul (the burnt wings of the night moth), that mortification in which it
feels the paradoxical agony of a preganant potential within itself and a
sense of guilty cut-off separateness. The torment continues until the
soul-work (Psyche's tasks) is completed and the psyche is reunited with a
transformed eros. Eros needs to regress, it would seem, into a state of
burning unrest and agitation, dominated by the mother [archetype],  by
Penia or deprivation, in order to realziew that he himself has been feeled
by his arrow and has found his mate, Psyche. He gains psychic
consciousness. Only then does the union take place, and for it the
sanctification of God is required." (p94 _The Myth of Analysis_)

***

Also, might we apply Hillman's description, "the repetitive erotic
intanglements", in regard to being stuck in the 'small story', the
'stuckness of the pattern', driven by 'hopeless intention'?

There is something soulless about 'being an ant in line'. To paraphrase
(mangle?) Hillman, the *arrow point* of eros shows us the extent of our
fantasies, tests their capability, reveals their impossibility.

***

The small story of the ant in line is, finally, an impossible story. The
wind of the gyre moves through the salt's burn. What *could* be more lonely
than to deprive ouselves of the comforts of the course of least resistance,
the most well known story, the predictability of our role vis a vis the
'other', each other.

***

The ant is not capable of reflection! The bigger story is the stepping out
of line. "The lump of salt and its incipient burn in our minds, seems less
when we are together." Who may step out of the line but our most individual
being; the arrow prick (or a deeper wound,) of the bigger story drawing us
out of 'line', separating us, depriving us of the comforts of "ant/mind",
but inexorably also firing us, our burning so that the revelation of the
more and more and more story is the gold.

***

And I reckon the big story no longer brings us back into the ant line for
we are no longer ants; ants become impossible for us. The old story is
truly impossible too. And one is no longer a lonely ant in line.

***

New possibility of the big story? The persons we detested as ants we now
love as persons.

This may well include our own person. But, it's a big, lonely leap
sometimes to ward the flames of the *big story*, the story worth loving.

***

Nooh

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:58:11 -0600
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Judith

You speak of one's story, a grand and unique story.  I have been writing
mine and in the writing have found so many freeing moments, release from
self-constructed prisons of script.  The writing yet continues and it
gets larger.  And in the middle of many nights I waken and hear the
ghosts clamour and beg to be remembered, honoured for their beingness,
honoured for their pain, giving them meaning.  And so, I add their
voices to the one that I now speak with.

In the freeing, I also came to realise:

> Plus there is a truism...the more conscious one becomes of one's story, the
> less slack one is cut in living it out...sort of the ignorance of the law
> is not a defense idea...and in my experience the cosmic bricks get larger
> so the ability to duck is a good life skill to develop :-)

No turning back.  Less hands to hold onto as the journey moves forward.
Yet, there is a glowing and certain rightness to this purifying
reduction, where the many reduce to one ... all the contents of the
alchemical soup reduced to gold, to the philosopher's stone ... Self.

awed by the words of a Mayan cougar

Robert
   a solitary eagle, singing

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:54:53 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: football and passion
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At 12:17 PM 6/19/98 -0500, HooN wrote:
>all,
>
>I started 10th grade in a new, private school for men only. I hoped very
>much that my lackluster football career in public school would translate
>into a bit more than the low profile I had attained in 9th grade when I was
>the second halfback off the bench. I enjoyed football.

I just really have to ask ......  *why* ??????

>With this glittering ambition I proceeded to work very hard through summer
>practice in the 90 degree heat, and to even briefly obtain a starting
>position on the junior varsity until my nadir was reached one autumnal
>afternoon when, after intercepting a pass, I was summarily stripped of the
>ball by the end who's  reception I had just purloined, and this
>repossession soon became a touchdown for the opponent. Flustered, I went
>into the next defensive series until the coach pulled me out of the game
>and shouted as to me as I sat my self down on the bench (there, again!)
>"Calhoun, I'm sick of watching you dance around like a ballerina!"

Hey, Calhoun - don't guys know that real women prefer guys who dance?

>At the end of the season the head coach addressed the assembled j.v. and
>varsity teams to tell them that, fundamentally, 'in seeing our faith in
>each other he recognized some of the keys to his own life,' and then, (and
>I edit his emotional remarks,) he said:
>
>        "Faith? What is that? I learned how to have faith in God in the
>        Marine Corps. Football showed me how to sustain my faith in God.
>        Those two experiences of faith and, faith tested, saved my life,
>        Faith allowed me to be a good father and a husband."

>He then broke down into tears. (I was sitting in the back of the locker
>room leaning up against the wall with my good friend Greg sitting next to
>me. When the coach, a big baldheaded guy, started crying, Greg looked at
>me, I looked at Greg, and we both mouthed the same words: "Next year, it's
>cross-country.")

I could have told you that waaaaay back. :)

>Life is more complicated than our catagories, yes?

Yeah...and once again, may I plug consciousness?

But...what are you trying to say about emotions?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:57:53 -0400
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"Football and passion".

?

I don't  *think* so....:)

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:28:07 -0400
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Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
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>Eros needs to regress, it would seem, into a state of
>burning unrest and agitation, dominated by the mother [archetype],  by
>Penia or deprivation, in order to realziew that he himself

>has been feeled by his arrow and has found his mate, Psyche.
> He gains psychic consciousness. Only then does the union
>take place, and for it the sanctification of God is required."
> (p94 _The Myth of Analysis_)

He has been "feeled"....

Sort of says it all...

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:13:35 -0400
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At 10:44 AM 6/19/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>I played some (stress the *some*) football in grade 9 and began
>cross-country in grade 10 ... I last ran a cross-country race two years
>ago and finished dead last and that was very okay ...  :)

Hi Robert,

My son Dhanny did cross country his last two years in high
school, and he always came last! :)  He's very big - 6'4",
and he has a football player's build, but zero interest in
football (wonder where he got that from? Must be genetic
on his mother's side. :) - so all wrong for track, etc.
But he just didn't care about winning - just enjoyed
running.

His senior year, another boy started running whom Dhanny
could beat - but he didn't. I asked him why - and he said he
thought it was more important to the other boy than to him.

<proud mother> :):):):)

He just graduated from college, btw - three weeks ago - in
neuroscience/psychobiology.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:39:21 -0500
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Robert wonders,

>And?  Did you indeed run cross-country in grade 11?

Yes. On one of the best teams in Ohio, led by a Kenyan and two chunky guys
including my twin brother who hated to have anybody running in front of
him. I was generally able to hold an unscored place. Puer that I am, my
senior year, a shoe spike caught in the root of a maple tree on a narrow
part of the course. I kept running, my left foot did not, so my only
mention for athletics in my high school yearbook was:

"Stephen Calhoun ran well until he got smart and broke his ankle."

***

...feet injuries; now there's something I have some experience with. =\:-)

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:39:42 -0500
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Julienne asks,

>I just really have to ask ......  *why* ?????? (HooN loved football.)

***

It was fun to play! To run and catch and scramble around the almost always
bigger guys. I liked playing defense in the backfield which was sort of a
man upon man contest of intuition and response. We used to play 'touch
football' in the front yard in conditions which ranged from the springtime
mud to the summer dust to the dead of winter games in driving snow storms.

Later, in school, I really liked all the equipment which was clunky and
artificial but was put on in a ritual of snap, and lace and knot and tug
and tighten. Then it would get filthy, caked with dirt and mud and you'd
have the antithesis of ritual in tearing it off and putting it a heap by
your locker. There's the smell of sweat and menthol ointment and fresh
advesive tape and the taste of salt pills and gator-aid. There was the
concentration of the huddle unfolded to the mystery of the 'play' and in
the aftermath of many such accumulated plays the joys and sadnesses of
victory or defeat, oft combined. It is so much fun trying to grab someone
running at, through, or by you; to tackle them or drag them or hang on for
dear life! The humanness of one's efforts and its scars the petty bruises
and swellings and cuts and gashes and the brave limping.

There's the brief moments when your role is front and center and you feel
the eyes and the hopes all upon you and you don't know what will happen but
your own wish springs forth as a possibility and every cell in devoted to
its realization. Oh it is great great fun.

***

well, you asked.

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:44:08 -0500
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Jungian slip,

>>has been feeled by his arrow and has found his mate, Psyche.
>> He gains psychic consciousness. Only then does the union
>>take place, and for it the sanctification of God is required."
>> (p94 _The Myth of Analysis_)
>
>He has been "feeled"....
>
>Sort of says it all...
>
>Julienne

Nonetheless, your elaboration would be appreciated. What do you think is up
with psyche and eros and love and self-knowledge?

***

HooN

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:39:08 -0600
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HooN,

I attended a high school of about 1700 students for grades 11 & 12 and
was the best at our school, which amounted to seventh best in the city
of Ottawa so I never got tested at the provincial level.  I also ran
track:
 - 4:26 mile
 - 2:08 880

My best mile after the age of 30 was 5:16 ... other notable milestones
for me since the age of 30:
 - 39:49 10K
 - 81:42 20K
 - 3:30:31 marathon

I dream of competing again ...

Football memories :)  I too played defense, the smallest and fastest on
the team.  The pads and helmet didn't make me look that much bigger.  I
had the job of sacking the QB or pressuring him to hurry the throw ... I
relate well to you description of the passion.  For a while, I almost
fit in and became an ... ant :)  But, the call of the empty road was
stronger than my will for team sports.  The "loneliness of the long
distance runner" isn't a myth.  It's a celebration in a way of being
unique.

Julienne, you spoke of your son letting another beat him because of
perceived need seen in the other ... I understand.  The competition is
rarely with an "other" in this "sport".  The competition is the "self".
It's the rare runner that doesn't instinctively know this.

Robert
   running from only to find he's running towards

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:12:12 -0400
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At 10:44 AM 6/19/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>I played some (stress the *some*) football in grade 9 and began
>cross-country in grade 10 ... I last ran a cross-country race two years
>ago and finished dead last and that was very okay ...  :)

Hi Robert,

My son Dhanny did cross country his last two years in high
school, and he always came last! :)  He's very big - 6'4",
and he has a football player's build, but zero interest in
football (wonder where he got that from? Must be genetic
on his mother's side. :) - so all wrong for track, etc.
But he just didn't care about winning - just enjoyed
running.

His senior year, another boy started running whom Dhanny
could beat - but he didn't. I asked him why - and he said he
thought it was more important to the other boy than to him.

<proud mother> :):):):)

He just graduated from college, btw - three weeks ago - in
neuroscience/psychobiology.

Julienne

PS Just told Dhanny about this, and he sais that "having gone through
a year of coming last, I didn't see any need for the other guy to have
to go through it too."

However, there was a big invitational meet, and there was a guy who
was well known and expected to win, and so Dhanny decided to
stick to him. Dhanny ended up coming in around thirtieth out of
about 300 - while his little buddy was near the end. So - I guess
he can do it, but would rather just enjoy.

My other son, Noah, had a teacher who was very upset with him
in 3rd grade (class).  She said he belonged in the advance groups,
but wouldn't work quickly. She told me he was "too secure" and not
competitive enough. I asked her if she thought it might be better if
I loved him a little less, so he would feel more insecure, and be
more competitive - and SHE ACTUALLY SAID "YES"!!!!!!!!!

Awful.

So...I have two happy kids who are able to spread a lot of
caring around...

Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:22:50 -0400
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At 02:39 PM 6/19/98 -0500, HooN wrote:
>Julienne asks,
>
>>I just really have to ask ......  *why* ?????? (HooN loved football.)

>Later, in school, I really liked all the equipment which was clunky and
>artificial but was put on in a ritual of snap, and lace and knot and tug
>and tighten. Then it would get filthy, caked with dirt and mud and you'd
>have the antithesis of ritual in tearing it off and putting it a heap by
>your locker. There's the smell of sweat and menthol ointment and fresh
>advesive tape and the taste of salt pills and gator-aid.

Oh yeah...the smell of Nature - gatorade...puechhhy!

 There was the
>concentration of the huddle unfolded to the mystery of the 'play' and in
>the aftermath of many such accumulated plays the joys and sadnesses of
>victory or defeat, oft combined. It is so much fun trying to grab someone
>running at, through, or by you; to tackle them or drag them or hang on for
>dear life! The humanness of one's efforts and its scars the petty bruises
>and swellings and cuts and gashes and the brave limping.

The need to hurt and be hurt...
punishment for original sin...

>There's the brief moments when your role is front and center and you feel
>the eyes and the hopes all upon you and you don't know what will happen but
>your own wish springs forth as a possibility and every cell in devoted to
>its realization. Oh it is great great fun.

I'd rather watch you dance - and not be hurt...

>***
>
>well, you asked.

Boy am I sorry....:)

Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:29:52 -0400
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Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
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At 02:44 PM 6/19/98 -0500, HooN wrote:
>Jungian slip,
>
>>>has been feeled by his arrow and has found his mate, Psyche.
>>> He gains psychic consciousness. Only then does the union
>>>take place, and for it the sanctification of God is required."
>>> (p94 _The Myth of Analysis_)
>>
>>He has been "feeled"....
>>
>>Sort of says it all...
>>
>>Julienne
>
>Nonetheless, your elaboration would be appreciated. What do you think is up
>with psyche and eros and love and self-knowledge?


Ah!

It's all Viagra, HooN, ...all Viagra...

Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:36:08 -0400
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Robert,

Have been following elements of your story as it is reflected here since my
return and seeing the deeper self being accessed with your deepening
courage...there are poems of joy to come I sense...

Judith with appreciation and continued faith in the noblness of our stories

>Judith
>
>You speak of one's story, a grand and unique story.  I have been writing
>mine and in the writing have found so many freeing moments, release from
>self-constructed prisons of script.  The writing yet continues and it
>gets larger.  And in the middle of many nights I waken and hear the
>ghosts clamour and beg to be remembered, honoured for their beingness,
>honoured for their pain, giving them meaning.  And so, I add their
>voices to the one that I now speak with.
>
>In the freeing, I also came to realise:
>
>> Plus there is a truism...the more conscious one becomes of one's story, the
>> less slack one is cut in living it out...sort of the ignorance of the law
>> is not a defense idea...and in my experience the cosmic bricks get larger
>> so the ability to duck is a good life skill to develop :-)
>
>No turning back.  Less hands to hold onto as the journey moves forward.
>Yet, there is a glowing and certain rightness to this purifying
>reduction, where the many reduce to one ... all the contents of the
>alchemical soup reduced to gold, to the philosopher's stone ... Self.
>
>awed by the words of a Mayan cougar
>
>Robert
>   a solitary eagle, singing
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:36:33 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: football and passion
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Hey Hoon,
I always liked sitting on the sidelines and watching the "behinds"...;-)
plus all the fun you guys were havin'...these days the young man downstairs
in the house I live in comes home from his softball games in the agony of
defeat in great glee...scraped and bloody kneed...but living to play
again...

Judith returned from a Cleveland Indians night of loss



>Julienne asks
>
>>I just really have to ask ......  *why* ?????? (HooN loved football.)
>
>***
>
>It was fun to play! To run and catch and scramble around the almost always
>bigger guys. I liked playing defense in the backfield which was sort of a
>man upon man contest of intuition and response. We used to play 'touch
>football' in the front yard in conditions which ranged from the springtime
>mud to the summer dust to the dead of winter games in driving snow storms.
>
>Later, in school, I really liked all the equipment which was clunky and
>artificial but was put on in a ritual of snap, and lace and knot and tug
>and tighten. Then it would get filthy, caked with dirt and mud and you'd
>have the antithesis of ritual in tearing it off and putting it a heap by
>your locker. There's the smell of sweat and menthol ointment and fresh
>advesive tape and the taste of salt pills and gator-aid. There was the
>concentration of the huddle unfolded to the mystery of the 'play' and in
>the aftermath of many such accumulated plays the joys and sadnesses of
>victory or defeat, oft combined. It is so much fun trying to grab someone
>running at, through, or by you; to tackle them or drag them or hang on for
>dear life! The humanness of one's efforts and its scars the petty bruises
>and swellings and cuts and gashes and the brave limping.
>
>There's the brief moments when your role is front and center and you feel
>the eyes and the hopes all upon you and you don't know what will happen but
>your own wish springs forth as a possibility and every cell in devoted to
>its realization. Oh it is great great fun.
>
>***
>
>well, you asked.
>
>HooN
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:36:53 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: football and passion/cat-agore-ickly
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,
Mais wHeeeeee....
Yep...Seems like a possible strategy for increasing the joy potential or at
the least the fun potential...

Judith forever the explorer

>On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:17:05 -0500, sc  wrote ">":
>  Thanks for being       Hoon
>
>
>>, ...private   ...         public ...
>
>>***
>>
>>Life is more complicated than our catagories, yes?
>>
>>***
>N: Then we must expand our catagories, nes paz?
>
>  nancy
>  hasting off to have lunch with a novelist friend
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:20:00 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: football and passion
In-Reply-To:  <19980619202313.ZOED24888@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Julienne writes,

>The need to hurt and be hurt...
>punishment for original sin...
>

This struck me as a non-sequitor; couldn't relate to it. Would you explain
what this response to my expressing what the truth of my experience playing
teenager was about ...means?

***

thanks in advance,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:23:10 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
In-Reply-To:  <19980619203031.ZQUG24888@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>>Nonetheless, your elaboration would be appreciated. What do you think is up
>>with psyche and eros and love and self-knowledge?
>
>
>Ah!
>
>It's all Viagra, HooN, ...all Viagra...
>
>Julienne,

Well then...what about "What do you think is up with psyche and eros and
love and self-knowledge?" before the advent of viagra?

Actually, I'm asking you a serious question. Would you like to have a
dialogue about this stuff? It seems, to me, central to our human condition.

***

hey but suit your self...probably psychobioloy grads have bigger fish to
fry! ;-)

winking,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:48:58 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
In-Reply-To:  <v04011701b1b0daf55349@[207.54.160.10]>
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At 10:23 PM 6/19/98 -0500, HooN wrote:
>>>Nonetheless, your elaboration would be appreciated. What do you think is up
>>>with psyche and eros and love and self-knowledge?
>>
>>
>>Ah!
>>
>>It's all Viagra, HooN, ...all Viagra...
>>
>>Julienne,
>
>Well then...what about "What do you think is up with psyche and eros and
>love and self-knowledge?" before the advent of viagra?
>
>Actually, I'm asking you a serious question. Would you like to have a
>dialogue about this stuff? It seems, to me, central to our human condition.
>
>***
>
>hey but suit your self...probably psychobiology grads have bigger fish to
>fry! ;-)
>
>winking,
>
>HooN

<laugh> I was just joking, HooN. Actually, you've hit on my favourite
topic, but I have a very busy week ahead - and I don't want to write
casually on this topic.

That sorts of sets me up for saying something deep and meaningful,
doesn't it ? - and maybe I can't...:)

Tonight I was out to dinner and the movies, tomorrow the theater, next week
Boston and househunting and my son's birthday for a few days, and then
retrieving all my llamas and everything I own which was stolen two years
ago and which I am astoundedly getting back!!!!

All of that between now and the 28th -

If I feel inspired one night I'll write - but my brain might be a bit
distracted...
Remind me after that if you haven't heard anything.
Same about my original football sin. :)

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:19:02 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: football and passion
In-Reply-To:  <v04011700b1b0da7d371e@[207.54.160.67]>
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At 10:20 PM 6/19/98 -0500, HooN wrote:
>Julienne writes,
>
>>The need to hurt and be hurt...
>>punishment for original sin...

>This struck me as a non-sequitor; couldn't relate to it. Would you explain
>what this response to my expressing what the truth of my experience playing
>teenager was about ...means?

Dear Bloodied HooN,

So many of our human rites, including the games we play, have forever
been associated with blood and gore and people being hurt. I'm not just
talking about the scraped knee or injury one can get falling over or
accidentally, but the real need we seem to have to hurt each other.

We especially make little boys and men prove their "manliness",
their right to be a warrior, a brave one in the tribe, society, etc., by
hurting them, and by pitting them against each other in games
where the tribe knows they will only be hurt, and sometimes hurt
very badly, and sometimes killed. Sometimes the killing is built
in - such as with the gladiators in Rome, and the ball games in
the Mesoamerican Basin. In Mexico one whole team was sacrificed
at the end of each contest.

And so often these games are deliberate sacrifices to the gods -
and it is the adults sacrificing the young so that the gods will
allow the harvest to be plentiful, the sun to rise again for a new
year, etc.

We continue these games in the modern world with war "games" -
where we sacifice our sons, and so many others as well...the
women who are raped as a perk of war to the vanquisher - the
little children killed.

We have so many violent "games" - from bullfighting to cockfighting
to wrestling to boxing, etc.

I just don't enjoy any of this, and it literally hurts me. The last time
I saw a football game was in Australia - where football is more
like US soccer. One of the guys was injured and all bloody. I know
most people have innured themselves to this  - but I think that's a
form of survival which damages us in so many ways. We can't numb
one feeling without numbing others. When we stop feeling the pain of
another, we stop feeling love as deeply. When we stop feeling
empathy, we stop caring.

This actually feeds into the other topic you want to talk about HooN -
how, when is full of blood and hurt and the emotions of bashing the
other side, does one feel the profound tenderness which is the
base of real love and eros and all the pantheon of lover gods and
goddesses?

Hurting each other physically and emotionally has become the
stuff of modern life - movies, sports - wherever we look.  Even in
skating, someone had to whack a skater in the knee - and
professional hockey attendance went way down when the violence
was toned down. Tennis - my favourite - someone had to stab a
knife in Monica Seles back because winning was all.

So...our self-hate, the origin of the concept of original sin, makes
us want to hurt each other - and ourselves.  I just take no pleasure
in it at all - and it hurts me. I was so upset by Wilbur's horrific tale
of bashing his school mate's ribs in against the school locker - that
I hurt my own ribs a few days later. We may think violent sports are
harmless - but I don't think so. I think they have a horribly harmful
effect on the way we all relate to each other, and do real damage

to what should be our gentle psyches.

Well...there it is, HooN.

Julienne - who, with the Toltecs, would prefer to sacrifice only flowers.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:34:55 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Truth
In-Reply-To:  <v03110704b1a4cdc3fecc@[195.200.19.111]>
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At 01:28 AM 6/11/98 +0100, Simon wrote:
>>I think it's an oversimplification of a statistical, not fundamental,
>>difference between men's and women's preferences between the Thinking
>>and the Feeling functions as described by Myers-Briggs typology, a
>>difference that has been statistically measured.   "women are xxx" or
>>"men are xxx" really usually means that women, or men, are on average
>>more likely to be xxx, and that's no way to deal with individuals.
>>There are men mystics and women scientists, no need to assign the
>>roles by gender.
>>
>>-JoAnne
>
>To me, gender is a continuum, and people, male and female, can exist at
>varying positions along this continuum, in fact can themselves shift to an
>extent within the continuum.
>
>This is not to ignore that there *are* distinctions to be made, that
>biology has its effect, and that differences in history, conditioning,
>power roles, social pressures etc. have *positioned* 'men' and 'women'
>differently. But the issue is (the issues are!) complex.
>
>The extent to which society defines, and has always defined, what 'men' and
>'women' are, as opposed to what they 'really' are, is showing up I think in
>the many changes and shifts that are happening in Western society at the
>moment, which are altering quite dramatically how both women and men see
>themselves.

Hi Simon,

I'm a bit behind on posts.

Glad to hear you saying the above.
Shades of deja view...what you said is what I said which
sent Wilbur off in a fury at me last year.

As we change our society, and as we change gender
expectations, who knows how we'll develop? But hopefully
we'll be allowed to unfold in ways which feel comfortable,
as we'd like to - instead of having false "roles" assigned
to any of us.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 00:35:39 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: football and passion
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Julienne,

(Pardon my snipping,)

>I just don't enjoy any of this, and it literally hurts me.

Do you find sometimes it is the spot at which you are most sensitive, that
is also the spot other persons havbe trouble understanding, or, worse,
letting you be sensitive in exactly that spot, in your way?

Lots of people might not defend, or wish to defend 'violence' or even
'ritual toughening' or the whathaveyous which acknowledge that sometimes a
hurt, or pain will befall one, or another person. But, your sensitivity
might still strike someone as too sensitive, perhaps unreal, (Well,
certainly not their reality!) and then you may have the experience of
someone suggesting to you that "pain is part of life," and too much
sensitivity to life's pains, (etc.) 'is a ridiculous attitude for one to
hold'. Do you resonate with this?

***

What else do we have but our attitudes? What is more exquisite than our
sensitivity?

My sense is that our points of sensitivity are, in fact, where each person
is most tender. That those same points are big hooks may be fodder should
some want to explain in a limited way, (and after a fashion!) how
individual sensitivity is made out of the psychoid. This is of interest
because most times, (from that perspective,) our point of sensitivity may
have one foot in the unconscious so to speak.

But, that's not what I'm thinking of this evening here in Cleveland. I
approach it from a different direction also knowing that this same point of
sensitivity is a point from which one may witness. It is an esoteric idea
but then there is nothing too hidden about simply being a sensitive
witness. (And one may also become committed, as you are Julienne, to
further response(s).

Allow me to be difficult for a moment. :-) I would not want my own core
sensitivity to be to violence, hurt, abuse, rape, hatred, pain. Not for any
banal reason. But because it is a burden I would not choose to bear.

***

You write,

"I think they [violent sports] have a horribly harmful effect on the way we
all relate to each other, and do real damage to what should be our gentle
psyches."

I sense this as an expression of your sensitivity. Aside from all the
quibbling about this assertion which might be made in hopes of clarifying
to Julienne 'what the world is really about,' I'll take it from another
framing:

"Our refinement is the way through which the witness bears knowledge of
God's world back to God."

***

>Well...there it is, HooN.
>
>Julienne - who, with the Toltecs, would prefer to sacrifice only flowers.
>

But, then, sensitivity must by necessity step out of line, yes? Paradox (to
me,) then is this other great step out of line, in the words of Simone Weil:

        "Appearance clings to being and pain alone can tear them apart."

Another kind of violence, that of separation, of love torn apart, even the
painful gulf between our sensitivity and its going

unfulfilled.

(We forget this about each other and do attack at the point of greatest
sensitivity.)

***

but that's just my assly way of looking at it. Oh yeah the haiku (Taneda,)

                In the mountain all day,
                the ants too are marching.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 00:31:49 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: man... terror ..Eros/Psyche

On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 00:11:01 -0400, sc  wrote:


>So begun my task. When I look inside my self, I am now and then terrified.
>That somebody else should be allowed, (or be able!) to look inside; it can
>terrify me too.
>
>***
      A man's fear of psychic rape?  We of the Intuitive faith need to be very
 careful so as not to become 'rapists'.
===>
>To say to somebody, "Here is what your feeling should be, either directly
>or by implication." and if that person is less good natured than I (!) and
>this should activate the defense against all things negative and great
>mother,
>
>watch out.
====
   A man's fear of engulfment?  Might  this perpetrated by  Sensation Feeling?
(Nathan Schwart-Salant refers to this fear a lot, but takes so much for granted I
 have a hard time getting in touch with his statements about *IT*)
====
>
>If nobody backs me up on this outpouring, I'm gonna go hide,
>
>but I'll stay.
>
>Love to all, especially the departed; think about rejoining us;
>
>HooN
>
>
>"Where love reigns, there is no will to power; and where the will to power
>is paramount, love is lacking. The one is but the shadow of the other."
>Carl Jung
>
>"On the Psychology of the Unconscious" (1912) In CW 7: Two Essays on
>Analytical Psychology.
>====
I was stumbling around the archivens under "abyss" (probably looking for Simon,
who is working) when I stumbled across your word with a sense of recognition.
  Sorry I couldn't use your 6/19/98 subject
heading, Nooh, but feared if I crawled out after it, I'd lose this place.

     NS

    think like a shellfish
where a grain of sand really
     an become pearl

  Sorry to respond so little to you others today.  I seem to be feeling a bit
inecessible.
>____________________________________
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 05:22:23 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
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Hoon,

In your post I see you drawing together themes and looking at the
bigger story ... a reflection on our unfolding of more and more
stories, which you beautifully call the gold of alchemy.

When you first mentioned "think like an ant" ... I imagined
something like this:

"I am an ant, I belong to the nest and the queen.  I live for the
good of the nest.  I am a worker.  I serve the nest and the
queen.  What is this.  This is a stick.  The nest needs sticks
NOT.  The nest needs sugar.  What is this?  This is a dead
lizard.  Lizards have sugar in their flesh.  Take lizard to nest.
Lizard too big.  Get more ants.  Back to nest.  What is this?
This is salt.  Nest does not need salt."

My role reversal and ant-empathy reveals something of me, I am
reluctant to admit!  Search and replace "nest" with "list" above.
However unlike an ant, I have reflected on this repeatedly and
hence have reluctance to think like an ant and reluctance to
place the "nest" (community) in the highest place, or even to
have a highest place.

~~~

Nancy's post has just come in where she says:


|     think like a shellfish
| where a grain of sand really
|      an become pearl


"I am a shell fish and wonder if there is value in the something
that is growing in my shell and which might kill me."

Hmmm I wonder if a shellfish is more reflective than an ant.  I
think so they do not march.  They live alone.

~~~

I wanted to return to your original post Hoon,  Nooh, [incipient
burning, big stories, lightning, loving] though i found it
difficult to grasp full, this is what it left me thinking:

We are not ants.  We do not live like ants, marching in a line.
We do repeat endless cycles mindlessly and repeatedly like a moth
to a flame, feeling the pain as in the in the search for love,
but then ... miraculously, we step out of the line ... we tell
the bigger story, then we can love the little pains we suffered.
It is not until we see the bigger story that we know what we
intended ... at the time we were driven by something we could not
see.


Am I in tune with your intention here?


Walter






__________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 08:25:11 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
In-Reply-To:  <358d3c25.62686055@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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>Am I in tune with your intention here?
>
>
>Walter,

If you're interested, you're in tune with my intention, Walter.

<g>

***

Umm, be that as it may...I'd like to highlight what you bring to the table
here, what strikes me as being novel.

<miraculously, we step out of the line>

<we tell the bigger story, then we can love the little pains we suffered.>

<It is not until we see the bigger story that we know what we intended>

<at the time we were driven by something we could not see.>

As we used to say, with the hookah mouthpiece in hand, "this is some good
shit, man."

***

One comment: we are antlike and we do march in line. We most times
(naturally?) avoid a certain kind of loneliness, the kind which pitches us
to the edge of our own cliff.

***

Anyway...I will let these cook, Walter, and then prepare my lecture. :-)

No, I'm actually stopped by "miraculously, we step out of line," because it
sometimes is a miracle and since I've experienced this miracle, literally
in the form of a person who crooked their finger at me, (a complete
stranger!) and when I shuffled near to them was beckoned even closer, at
which point the person leaned right up next to my face and said the
equivalent of:

"Step out of line, willya?" But enough with the equivalency, what the
person suggested to me was, "You need rhythm." Really, at the time I had no
idea what he was suggesting, and I didn't then step out of line, but then I
also didn't notice the invisible chain attached to the

miraculous winch.

(Sometimes this is the way it happens; somebody takes an interest.)

***

Much more rarely an ant pushes the ant in front of it out of line, and
usually, when this happens the ant

jumps back

in.

***

I'd like to know more, Walter, especially what your experience is, was; for
example, what happened to you that this is true for you: "It is not until
we see the bigger story that we know what we intended" ?

(yeah, prying...)

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:30:29 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
In-Reply-To:  <v04011702b1b16472a86a@[207.54.160.10]>
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At 08:25 AM 6/20/98 -0500, HooN wrote:

>"Step out of line, willya?" But enough with the equivalency, what the
>person suggested to me was, "You need rhythm." Really, at the time I had no
>idea what he was suggesting, and I didn't then step out of line, but then I
>also didn't notice the invisible chain attached to the
>
>miraculous winch.
>
>(Sometimes this is the way it happens; somebody takes an interest.)

>I'd like to know more, Walter, especially what your experience is, was; for
>example, what happened to you that this is true for you: "It is not until
>we see the bigger story that we know what we intended" ?
>
>(yeah, prying...)

Oh...I thought you were just taking an interest...:)

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:36:55 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: love tears; [P]football and passion..etc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Joanne, Julienne, Robert, Hoon, Nancy and all

It's nearly at midnight. I just came home from group seminar. And I
checked mails.
   ..........Waw.........

....peace....comfort....warmness...
 I recall a woman's warm and holy smile who was the heroine of a
dramatic performance, "Feeling, like Paradise(of Buddism)"
 hm.....

* Joanne.

>Thank you for the beautiful poetry, Meeseo.
>-JoAnne

I am happy to read your simple, warm response.
This is the first time you talk to me.
         (me too)
I had a lot of things to tell you.
Nevertheless, I couldn't dare to tell.....
At a certain moment, we have a fixed idea about someone and then, It
is difficult to change it.
But, now, I seem to be able to change my idea.
   *~.*..wink


* Julienne..

 >Me, too...Meeseo. The tears as well...
 >Love,
 >Julienne

Hm...too sensitive and too white like white paper...
  .......and..and...
I had a lot of things to tell you too.
Someday I will..............

* Robert..

>I think I need to learn Korean.
 Thanks a lot.
 Haha 1) An-nyoung-ha-se-yo?(how are you?)
      2) Pyon-ji ba-da gi-peo-yo(.glad to get your mail)

Your response is always intense.
             ...sensitive...


* Hoon

>my tears would flow, feeling
>the great billowing crowd,
>human, reaching up,
>becoming here,
>here to love.

Ah. thoughtful and charming writing...

>Life is more complicated than our catagories, yes?
  haha...in a sense....
  But, maybe, in other sense, Life is too simple.

>I enjoyed football.

  I envy you.
  Speaking of my idea of football,
  I enjoy watching football game very much.
  ..passion, energy, fighting spirit...
  all attract me.
  Sometimes I watch even computer football game(because my lovely
nephew enjoys it).

  But I kicked a football only one time with my nephew, 2 months ago.
  Haha...when I was 10, a big ball hit me on the back and I am still
afraid of a big and hard ball.
  But, I think sports which need a true communal spirit are really
attractive and a kind of arts (Of course, these days, all sports,
unfortunately, become a kind of commodity).
 ..Enjoy football.



*Nancy...


>our poems            messeo
 >  gentle drops falling upon
  >        a drying plain

  >         thank you,

   >           Nnancy

haha. I always enjoy your mail.
I think you are like a pretty and witty and nice girl. Of course,
...right!?(not a joke..but my real feeling)
Whenever I read your text, ...happy...joyful...


  * Despite the rainy season, it's cool and not wet.

True love.

Meeseo.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:17:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Joke A Day (June 20/21, 1998)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

A joke regarding truth - which has been such a topic
here lately. :

*************************************************

A fellow passed a house with a little red light burning in front,
so he   stepped inside. There was nothing in sight, and nothing
there but an empty bare hallway, with 2 doors reading "Over 35"
and "Under 35".

He decided to be truthful and entered the door that said "Over
35". He found himself in another empty hallway, this one with 2
doors that read, "Over 8 inches" and "Under 8 inches".

Truthful again, he went through the "Under 8 inches" door and
found himself in another empty hall, with 2 more doors reading,
"Once a night" and "Over 4 times a night".

Still wanting to be truthful, he entered the door marked "Once a
night" and found himself back out on the street.

The moral of this story is "Always tell the truth and you'll never
get screwed".

************************************************
I just couldn't resist :)

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:33:19 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: love tears; [P]football and passion..etc

On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:36:55 -0700, meeseo Paik  wrote:

>....peace....comfort....warmness...
> I recall a woman's warm and holy smile who was the heroine of a
>dramatic performance, "Feeling, like Paradise(of Buddism)"
> hm.....
>
>True love.
>
N:  Robert, Hoon, INFPs, all,  I suspect Meeseo, too, is a 'healer'.

  Hoon, Do you suppose 'Water' ...'timed out' on your invitation that he join
the par-ty?

   Nnancy (going about her business
while waiting)
_____________________________________________________
___
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>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:47:36 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving

>From this morning's paper, just read:

   "ATHENS BATTERED BY STORMS
  Relentless rain, ground shaking thunder, ominous funnel clouds and piercing
 lightning plagued the Athens area on Friday afternoon, knocking down trees
and causing at least one fire and countless car wrecks -- including one which
 resulted in the death of a 3-year-old boy...
  The worst wreck...took the life of an Athens toddler.
  About 1:30 p.m [1], during one of the heavier parts of the storm, an eastbound
car hydroplaned across the centerline on Cedar Shoals Drive...right into an
oncoming car...
  ...Ashe...told police his 1991 Mazda 929 hit a standing pool of water and then
spun out of control into the oncoming lane.  Still spinning, the rear of Ashe's car
collided with the front of a westbound 1987 Oldsmobile Sierra driven by...Lumpkin...
  Lumpkin and his four passengers were all injured from the crash, which
smashed the entire front end of the small gray car.  A 3-year-old boy, Justin
Robinson, was badly hurt in the wreck, needing immediate treatment and CPR
 on the scene.
  Justin was taken to St. Mary's Hospital where he died from his injuries at 3:45 p.m..."


  [1] 1:30 p.m. was the exact time I met my novelist friend for lunch.
       If you believe in synchronicity, there are powerful forces at work here, people.

       Gravely,  Nancy  2:43 p.m. Saturday, June 21, 1998     Athens

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:44:37 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: Participation; question for judith
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> >Yet, there is a glowing and certain rightness to this purifying
> >reduction, where the many reduce to one ... all the contents of the
> >alchemical soup reduced to gold, to the philosopher's stone ... Self.
> >
> >awed by the words of a Mayan cougar
> >
> >Robert
> >   a solitary eagle, singing


Dear Robert--Your image as an eagle brings to mind another dimension
based on a favorite hymn of mine.  In it, it suggests that while in many
ways eagles are solitary, the gift of support for the fledglings is
mystical and magical--when a fledgling learns to fly the parent eagle
flies beneath the little one to catch it if it falters. Somehow the
solunarity of the two images, solitary and singing, yet still capable of
giving great gifts of one's self, seems fitting for you.

        And I will raise you up on eagle's wings
        Bear you like the morning sun
        And make you to shine like the stars
        And hold you in the palm of my hand.
                                (don't know who wrote it, sorry)

                Susan>
> >_______________________________________________________________
> >

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:27:03 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
In-Reply-To:  <358d3c25.62686055@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>, on Sat, 20 Jun 1998 05:22:23
GMT you wrote:

>Nancy's post has just come in where she says:
>
>
>|     think like a shellfish
>| where a grain of sand really
>|      an become pearl
>
>
>"I am a shell fish and wonder if there is value in the something
>that is growing in my shell and which might kill me."
>
>Hmmm I wonder if a shellfish is more reflective than an ant.  I
>think so they do not march.  They live alone.

Scallops even fly through the water, using jet power, and have a row of
eyes along their rim.

But back to pearls.  "I am a shell fish and I feel something irritating me,
bothering me.  I try to spit it out but I can't.  I don't have any way to
remove it, no hands, no tongue, no tail.  It will be with me until I die.
I'll coat it with something smoother.  Soon you won't be able to see it at
all.  It will have changed completely on the outside.  It's now the idea of
a grain of sand, instead of just the grain of sand, and doesn't make me
pause every time I encounter it.  Except the grain of sand is still there."

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:52:55 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: INFP's
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Robert and Nancy--I'm just picking up a few posts (to be honest those
that "feel" safe) and in picking this up realized at least part of the
kinship that I feel with you two is in being another INFP.  There are
not many of us in the world--the NF leads to a powerful (and often
unsettling sometimes overpowering) sensitivity to the world and the woes
of those in it; the I leads us to internalize all the stuff we pick up
rather than turning it back out in our actions; the P makes us respond
organically and spontaneously (or in other folk's terms, unpredicatably
and randomly with a fair bit of procrastination  :-)  ). Just glad to
know that I am in good company.
                        Susan

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 00:24:20 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: INFP's

On Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:52:55 -0500, Susan Swan  wrote:

>Robert and Nancy--I'm just picking up a few posts (to be honest those
>that "feel" safe) and in picking this up realized at least part of the
>kinship that I feel with you two is in being another INFP.  There are
>not many of us in the world--the NF leads to a powerful (and often
>unsettling sometimes overpowering) sensitivity to the world and the woes
>of those in it; the I leads us to internalize all the stuff we pick up
>rather than turning it back out in our actions; the P makes us respond
>organically and spontaneously (or in other folk's terms, unpredicatably
>and randomly with a fair bit of procrastination  :-)  ). Just glad to
>know that I am in good company.
>                        Susan
>----
 Hi Susan,  Well met. Yes, I think you've got us down to a T (maybe not thinking).  There seem to be more of us hanging about here at the list than most
places.    We had sort of orgy of 'feeling' here Thursday, valuing oneanother's company, soul singing to soul.  Sorry you missed.  Feel you might have enjoyed.
  Hope to see a lot more of you.
        Comanionably, Nancy

 it.______________________________________________________________
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:31:31 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: INFP's...Ah...To breath again...
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>From Nancy to Robert:

 >> I see you as trying so hard to life up to the expectation that
> other have of you that you sometimes may almost lose touch with yourself yourSelf?)
> >
>
> >> I've been thinking of you as a 'hero'.  Like the third son in the
> fairy
> >> tales.  You know.
> >
> > Yet what else could those heroes be but
> INFP?  Many of them seemed to have
> more cunning than your average INFP.
> >
> >> Your situation of being 'on trial' as a teacher and all sounds
> truly
> >> horrid. Regretably I've been there.  I hate being in a position
> when
> >> others on whose opinion I must depend can 'judge' me.
> >

Dear God, what a relief to hear of such similar experiences--this past
week has brought two fiascos--one directed by a student and one from a
faculty member, both who seem to have taken a bitter hatred of me--I
suspect because I don't respond to either with hero-worship and while I
see their potential for good/greatness I am not buffaloed and thus see
past the bravado to what they actually do.  One thus made a complaint to
affirmative action that I was discriminating against him based on race
(not true--but I'm rather particular about people actually turning in
assignments) and the other, who is major league alcoholic, wrote an
anonymous poison pen letter to my academic vp, dean, and dept. chair
demanding my teaching award be revoked.
        I'm sorry you, Robert, have had such dragons to also stand up against
and Nancy as well--but glad to hear of your experiences at a time when
mine are so swamping.


> >It is uncomfortable as I often feel that due to the nature of being
> >INFP, others in positions of authority find us convenient being upon
> >which to place the focus that would otherwise highlight their own
> >stuff.  Being the "healer" (another word definition of INFP) both in
> >Keirsey terms and by definition for being of the CANCER sign
> (according
> >to a book I once saw), it is more likely to heal the wounds created
> by
> >others than to take them to task for these errors that wounded.  Yes,
> >others do the "judging" as it isn't in our "nature".  We are handy
> >targets of judgements though since we are the "quiet" ones.
> ----
> N: Some Philanthropist should set up a 'feel' tank when we could live
> and 'develop' empathy and how to distributed efficiently....we might
> have to get other
> types to manage the distribution...and house and yard work, though we
> would be allowed to putter in kitchen and garden when we didn't have
> pressing dreaming, writing or empathizing to do.  There'd cottages for
> families and a small
> school taught by INFPs.  And we'd have to have a mirrow pool for
> swimming with ducks and/swan in it.  A weeping willow at the bank.  Do
> swans bite like that goose in the movie "Friendly Persuasion"?
> >


Makes me wonder what it would feel like to be safe to "feel" and
"intuit"--maybe at least this swan wouldn't feel compelled to often to
bite back when barked at.
                                Susan

>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 06:46:29 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: football and passion/cat-agore-ickly

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:36:53 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:

>Nancy,
>Mais wHeeeeee....

good morning, judith.

                  u       n
           o                       d
     b

                Tigger

            (responding for she of many moods
     whose      lions       and tigers      and Bear
              burning bright          regard you)



>Yep...Seems like a possible strategy for increasing the joy potential or at
>the least the fun potential...
>
>Judith forever the explorer
>
>>On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:17:05 -0500, sc  wrote ">":
>>  Thanks for being       Hoon
>>
>>
>>>, ...private   ...         public ...
>>
>>>***
>>>
>>>Life is more complicated than our catagories, yes?
>>>
>>>***
>>N: Then we must expand our catagories, nes paz?
>>
>>  nancy
>>  hasting off to have lunch with a novelist friend
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 07:00:31 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Subject:      Re: INFP's
In-Reply-To:  <358C8397.D4F5389D@usd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Susan,

I too am INFP - and overjoyed to see you here again!

Marie
(busy being a student yet again)


At 10:52 PM 6/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Robert and Nancy--I'm just picking up a few posts (to be honest those
>that "feel" safe) and in picking this up realized at least part of the
>kinship that I feel with you two is in being another INFP.  There are
>not many of us in the world--the NF leads to a powerful (and often
>unsettling sometimes overpowering) sensitivity to the world and the woes
>of those in it; the I leads us to internalize all the stuff we pick up
>rather than turning it back out in our actions; the P makes us respond
>organically and spontaneously (or in other folk's terms, unpredicatably
>and randomly with a fair bit of procrastination  :-)  ). Just glad to
>know that I am in good company.
>                        Susan

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:52:22 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
In-Reply-To:  <v04011702b1b16472a86a@[207.54.160.10]>
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Hoon,

> If you're interested, you're in tune with my intention, Walter.

I'm interested all right!


> I'd like to know more, Walter, especially what your experience is, was; for
> example, what happened to you that this is true for you: "It is not until
> we see the bigger story that we know what we intended" ?

What got me to write my piece was simply to summarise what i
heard you and others in the dialogue saying ... so my experience
initially is that I was tuning in ... though i wanted to check
that out.

Lifting another layer ...

I related it all to the process here in Psyber-L ... where we
have all been out of line according to one or another of us ...
and have miraculously held the tension ... grown pearls of
wisdom.

On a more personal level your question made me think of a time in
1966 when I quit my job to "travel" ... everyone I knew said I
was mad.  I had just completed my first year teaching in
beautiful Swansea on the east coast of Tasmania.  To become a
proper teacher i needed to do another year to get the Tasmanian
Teachers Certificate.  Also i had no money.  I was inspired by
the books of one Peter Pinney ... Dust on my Shoes  was the title
of one another:  Anywhere But Here.  Stepping out with a pack on
my back and only a ticket to New Zealand was a great adventure.
Not just a physical one.  On the boat ac cross the Tasman sea I
read Colin Wilson's The Outsider ... which sent me scurrying to
every library I could find as I hitch-hiked around the country
and stopped for short spells doing casual work.  Nietzsche,
Sartre, Dostoevski, Kafka fed my existential despair ... the only
escape I could find from that was climbing mountains.

So that was a stepping out of line for me that was probably the
result of earlier seeds ... one that I have never regretted ...
and makes a lot of sense now ... but for that move I may have
been a more content school teacher in Tasmania.  I did not stick
with the Peter Pinney philosophy for long ... it was something to
give me a shove.


Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 08:40:21 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: INFP's
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi Susan,
Felt you here carefully...Seems the INFP Attractor is in full flurry
here...maybe an omen for the millenium...more of us needed to hold the
other end of the rope...

Your post which is an expression of the journey we INFPs seem to have to
take reminds me of my session with one of my healer's this week...she was
extracting some stuff from the past and she said: You know you don't have
to take the arrows, you can put your shield up. Well...that seemed to
clarify a life long dilemma for me...

Something a friend said to me recently seems to speak to the sensativity
aspect of INFPs...You know, Jud, she said, the strength of your process is
now your biggest weakness...

Seems a time when the light is shining in the darkness exposing it...and it
isn't happy...

Judith sensing the beauty of all here

>Robert and Nancy--I'm just picking up a few posts (to be honest those
>that "feel" safe) and in picking this up realized at least part of the
>kinship that I feel with you two is in being another INFP.  There are
>not many of us in the world--the NF leads to a powerful (and often
>unsettling sometimes overpowering) sensitivity to the world and the woes
>of those in it; the I leads us to internalize all the stuff we pick up
>rather than turning it back out in our actions; the P makes us respond
>organically and spontaneously (or in other folk's terms, unpredicatably
>and randomly with a fair bit of procrastination  :-)  ). Just glad to
>know that I am in good company.
>                        Susan
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 08:48:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: football and passion/cat-agore-ickly
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy and all

It is a glorious sunny morning and I woke early basking in rays of feeling
still washing over me from The Sculpture's show Friday night...
I sent him this thank you which I share because I can't take you there...

Words dissolve into The Sea of Inadequacy
Images fill the crevaces of my soul
Making love to her
Over and over and over and over
Breath giving

Judith continuing her Journey of Awe


>On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:36:53 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:
>
>>Nancy,
>>Mais wHeeeeee....
>
>good morning, judith.
>
>                  u       n
>           o                       d
>     b
>
>                Tigger
>
>            (responding for she of many moods
>     whose      lions       and tigers      and Bear
>              burning bright          regard you)
>
>
>
>>Yep...Seems like a possible strategy for increasing the joy potential or at
>>the least the fun potential...
>>
>>Judith forever the explorer
>>
>>>On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:17:05 -0500, sc  wrote ">":
>>>  Thanks for being       Hoon
>>>
>>>
>>>>, ...private   ...         public ...
>>>
>>>>***
>>>>
>>>>Life is more complicated than our catagories, yes?
>>>>
>>>>***
>>>N: Then we must expand our catagories, nes paz?
>>>
>>>  nancy
>>>  hasting off to have lunch with a novelist friend
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________________________
>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 08:49:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: football and passion/cat-agore-ickly
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

And I you, Nancy
j

>On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:36:53 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:
>
>>Nancy,
>>Mais wHeeeeee....
>
>good morning, judith.
>
>                  u       n
>           o                       d
>     b
>
>                Tigger
>
>            (responding for she of many moods
>     whose      lions       and tigers      and Bear
>              burning bright          regard you)
>
>
>
>>Yep...Seems like a possible strategy for increasing the joy potential or at
>>the least the fun potential...
>>
>>Judith forever the explorer
>>
>>>On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:17:05 -0500, sc  wrote ">":
>>>  Thanks for being       Hoon
>>>
>>>
>>>>, ...private   ...         public ...
>>>
>>>>***
>>>>
>>>>Life is more complicated than our catagories, yes?
>>>>
>>>>***
>>>N: Then we must expand our catagories, nes paz?
>>>
>>>  nancy
>>>  hasting off to have lunch with a novelist friend
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________________________
>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 09:12:24 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving

On Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:52:22 GMT, Walter Logeman  wrote:

>Hoon,
>
>> If you're interested, you're in tune with my intention, Walter.
>
>I'm interested all right!
>
>
>> I'd like to know more, Walter, especially what your experience is, was; for
>> example, what happened to you that this is true for you: "It is not until
>> we see the bigger story that we know what we intended" ?
>
>What got me to write my piece was simply to summarise what i
>heard you and others in the dialogue saying ... so my experience
>initially is that I was tuning in ... though i wanted to check
>that out.
>
>Lifting another layer ...
>
>I related it all to the process here in Psyber-L ... where we
>have all been out of line according to one or another of us ...
>and have miraculously held the tension ... grown pearls of
>wisdom.
>
>On a more personal level your question made me think of a time in
>1966 when I quit my job to "travel" ... everyone I knew said I
>was mad.  I had just completed my first year teaching in
>beautiful Swansea on the east coast of Tasmania.  To become a
>proper teacher i needed to do another year to get the Tasmanian
>Teachers Certificate.  Also i had no money.
-----
N:   Being 'poor' makes the Ego feel small.
-----
> I was inspired b>the books of one Peter Pinney ... Dust on my Shoes  was the >title
>of one another:  Anywhere But Here.  Stepping out with a pack on
>my back and only a ticket to New Zealand was a great adventure.
>Not just a physical one.  On the boat ac cross the Tasman sea I
>read Colin Wilson's The Outsider ... which sent me scurrying to
>every library I could find as I hitch-hiked around the country
>and stopped for short spells doing casual work.
----------
N:    "ac across"
     'an grow a pearl'
  My birth father valued a 'can do' attitude and called me Nancy An(n).
  I was just wondering if things might have been different if I had supported my
ex-husband's notion to change from Metallurical to Electrical Engineering after
his sister's suicide.
--------
Nietzsche,
>Sartre, Dostoevski, Kafka fed my existential despair ... the only
>escape I could find from that was climbing mountains.
>
>So that was a stepping out of line for me that was probably the
>result of earlier seeds ... one that I have never regretted ...
>and makes a lot of sense now ... but for that move I may have
>been a more content school teacher in Tasmania.  I did not stick
>with the Peter Pinney philosophy for long ... it was something to
>give me a shove.
>
>
>Walter
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                 Nancy
     (Across an ocean. Point and CounterPoint.  Up close and personal.)
PS Walter, are you 'holding' my message of earlier this morning which may of may not have 'freed' your message?  If so, leggo and let it take it's place in line..
                                      Nancy (playing FreeCell.)
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:13:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: INFP's...Ah...To breath again...
In-Reply-To:  <358C8CA3.946200FF@usd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Susan Swan <sswan@USD.EDU>, on Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:31:31 -0500 you
wrote:

>Dear God, what a relief to hear of such similar experiences--this past
>week has brought two fiascos--one directed by a student and one from a
>faculty member, both who seem to have taken a bitter hatred of me--I
>suspect because I don't respond to either with hero-worship and while I
>see their potential for good/greatness I am not buffaloed and thus see
>past the bravado to what they actually do.

What do they actually do?  What were they actually doing that wasn't good
or great, before they turned against you specifically?

>One thus made a complaint to
>affirmative action that I was discriminating against him based on race
>(not true--but I'm rather particular about people actually turning in
>assignments) and the other, who is major league alcoholic, wrote an
>anonymous poison pen letter to my academic vp, dean, and dept. chair
>demanding my teaching award be revoked.

What a horrible lot to deal with.  What can you do about the situation?
How did you find out it was the major league alcoholic who wrote the
letter?

I guess this is my NT reaction to an NF reaction!

-JoAnne, barking gently

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:14:51 +0300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello all friends of the ants,

 After the  Midsummer's love orgy my mind is  weaving in and  out through
the  threads of  ants, and  the  story of  Eros and   Psyche  brought   by
HooN onto  the list. The ants and  that  story  belong  together. The ants
were Psyche's helpers.  They  aided her to sort out of  hopeless muddle of
seed.   It was the first  labour imposed by the  nasty  Mother-Goddess
Aphrodite onto  her.  She said to Psyche: " I cannot conceive that  any
serving-wench   as hideous as yourself could find  any means to attract
lovers save  by making herself their drudge; wherefore, now I myself will
make trial of  your worth."  The  helpful ants " those  nimble nurselings of
earth"  are symbols of  the instinct world .  In the fairy-tales  children
and "fools" is  helped  by  animals. Naive  Psyche  has preserved her
connection with unconsciousness and nature,  although  her  envious  shadow
sister -  the more rationale  *thinking*  side of herself -  has cut her
from the  dark instinctual   "dragon-like" love  for  Eros.  After  Eros has
forsaken her, she meets Pan, the  god of  natural, unconscious, existence ,
who gives  her  the following advice: " Eros  is the greatest  of the gods;
and as  for you, Psyche, be feminine and win his love." And  Psyche will win
it through despair, suffering and failure. Through  four   labours  Psyche
renews her bond with her feminine  self.    As she fails her last labour,
she  gives Eros the possibility  to help her   Psyche  sacrifices her
masculine side. At the same as  he  saves  her,  he   grows  away from her
powerful mother, Aphrodite. So   Eros and  Psyche can  encounter  again on a
new plane.   In the  Finnish mythology there is  also  " Eros". His name is
Lemminkainen (" Lemmin "= I love).  But  his  story is more destructive than
his  Greek equivalent.   Her wife  was not  a loving and feminine woman, and
he  was never  emancipated from domination by her mother.  He  was left a
Puer forever.
    The  story  of   Eros and Psyche is one of the   (ever) incomplete
items  on this list. Last  autumn it  gave rise to " the great gender war".
Hopefully that  will not happen any more.   Those interested  in their story
I recommend   Eric Neumann's Amor and Psyche, and  James Hillman's Myth of
Analysis -  thank you, HooN ,for quoting it .  Both are jungians.   I recall
an   incident for ten years ago.  I was  invited to give a lecture  on love
to the literature/art therapist-to-be.  Their  professor supposed that I
know   the item well, because I had  written  on it  in my novels.  I  had
just read   Neumann's  and  Hillman's books, so  I decided to  speak of
Eros and Psyche.  I spoke  with enthusiasm  almost two hours, and  quoted
eagerly to the both books.   When I  finished, the silence was deep and
chilling,   no   response, no questions, no discussion. I  wondered what
went wrong.  Afterwards I heard that   their professor  was  a strict
Freudian.  Never since I have been invited to give  a lecture  for the
literary therapist-to -be.   Obviously my  speech was   inappropriate.

Best wishes
Anita

Ps. Nancy, I'm thinking  of your dream.   You have    symbols  of  the
psychic wholeness in the dream , as if  your  soul  ( if not  Psyber-soul)
was drawn   from  the shades   for the  light  and the centre ( i.e.  for
the Self) .

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Jun 1998 17:21:31 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Enquiring P's Want To Know

>           \\\|///
>         \\ ~   ~ //
>          (  @ @  )
> -------oo00-(_)-00oo---------
>|    ??????????????    l
>      | ??  ??   ??  ??  ?  l
>                   ?                      l
>|   (c)  Stephen Calhoun      |
>|       hoon@apk.net          |
>| http://junior.apk.net/~hoon |
>|                             |                l
>\\-------------------------\\/------------//
   ---           -----               ---        --
--------  \\/        -----          ------       ----\//
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

_______________________________________________________________
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LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:47:02 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Anita,

Thanks for this...I've always had a respect for the coooperation of
ants...the group mind sort of thing...your post is illuminating for
me...I'm not a myth person no matter how hard Hoon tries to get to me
see...I'm on the other side of the myth in the vectors...

Regards,
Judith staying with it

>Hello all friends of the ants,
>
> After the  Midsummer's love orgy my mind is  weaving in and  out through
>the  threads of  ants, and  the  story of  Eros and   Psyche  brought   by
>HooN onto  the list. The ants and  that  story  belong  together. The ants
>were Psyche's helpers.  They  aided her to sort out of  hopeless muddle of
>seed.   It was the first  labour imposed by the  nasty  Mother-Goddess
>Aphrodite onto  her.  She said to Psyche: " I cannot conceive that  any
>serving-wench   as hideous as yourself could find  any means to attract
>lovers save  by making herself their drudge; wherefore, now I myself will
>make trial of  your worth."  The  helpful ants " those  nimble nurselings of
>earth"  are symbols of  the instinct world .  In the fairy-tales  children
>and "fools" is  helped  by  animals. Naive  Psyche  has preserved her
>connection with unconsciousness and nature,  although  her  envious  shadow
>sister -  the more rationale  *thinking*  side of herself -  has cut her
>from the  dark instinctual   "dragon-like" love  for  Eros.  After  Eros has
>forsaken her, she meets Pan, the  god of  natural, unconscious, existence ,
>who gives  her  the following advice: " Eros  is the greatest  of the gods;
>and as  for you, Psyche, be feminine and win his love." And  Psyche will win
>it through despair, suffering and failure. Through  four   labours  Psyche
>renews her bond with her feminine  self.    As she fails her last labour,
>she  gives Eros the possibility  to help her   Psyche  sacrifices her
>masculine side. At the same as  he  saves  her,  he   grows  away from her
>powerful mother, Aphrodite. So   Eros and  Psyche can  encounter  again on a
>new plane.   In the  Finnish mythology there is  also  " Eros". His name is
>Lemminkainen (" Lemmin "= I love).  But  his  story is more destructive than
>his  Greek equivalent.   Her wife  was not  a loving and feminine woman, and
>he  was never  emancipated from domination by her mother.  He  was left a
>Puer forever.
>    The  story  of   Eros and Psyche is one of the   (ever) incomplete
>items  on this list. Last  autumn it  gave rise to " the great gender war".
>Hopefully that  will not happen any more.   Those interested  in their story
>I recommend   Eric Neumann's Amor and Psyche, and  James Hillman's Myth of
>Analysis -  thank you, HooN ,for quoting it .  Both are jungians.   I recall
>an   incident for ten years ago.  I was  invited to give a lecture  on love
>to the literature/art therapist-to-be.  Their  professor supposed that I
>know   the item well, because I had  written  on it  in my novels.  I  had
>just read   Neumann's  and  Hillman's books, so  I decided to  speak of
>Eros and Psyche.  I spoke  with enthusiasm  almost two hours, and  quoted
>eagerly to the both books.   When I  finished, the silence was deep and
>chilling,   no   response, no questions, no discussion. I  wondered what
>went wrong.  Afterwards I heard that   their professor  was  a strict
>Freudian.  Never since I have been invited to give  a lecture  for the
>literary therapist-to -be.   Obviously my  speech was   inappropriate.
>
>Best wishes
>Anita
>
>Ps. Nancy, I'm thinking  of your dream.   You have    symbols  of  the
>psychic wholeness in the dream , as if  your  soul  ( if not  Psyber-soul)
>was drawn   from  the shades   for the  light  and the centre ( i.e.  for
>the Self) .
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:46:45 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      two approaches myth / was Re: [P] incipient burning &c
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Judith, all:

Judith writes:

> I'm not a myth person no matter how hard Hoon tries to get to
> me see... I'm on the other side of the myth in the vectors...

I'm not sure whether this question will work for you, maybe it will: when
you say you're not a myth person, do you mean you're not a story person, or
that you're not a pattern person?

I suspect that many people approach myth as story: but Marie Lousie von
Franz, one of the great figures in the Jungian tradition, wrote (in
*Alchemy*, Inner City, p 185):

::  Because I am a thinking type, I admire the thinking in the
::  unconscious, the wonderful structure in it...

That's my own style of approach to myth, and it's a very different one from
the story-teller's.  Let me give you an example.

In the myth, Narcissus sees his own reflection in a pool, and his words are
echoed back to him by Echo.  For me, this is an example of something I
might call "imaginative geometry": echo is reflected sound, the mirroring
pool is reflected sight, so they are both *reflections*.  There's a logic
at work there, in other words, which we can express by some such notation
as:

    echo : sound :: pool : sight

with an underlying "third" clause present by implication:

    echo : sound :: pool : sight :: reflection : thought

I'm not sure about Jung, who looks at mythic symbols in his own unique way,
but I'm certain that Claude Levi-Strauss in his magnificent four volume
*Mythologiques* / *Introduction to a Science of Mythology* is looking at
myth and finding just this kind of patterning of elements, and my suspicion
is that this is the kind of "reading" of myths that von Franz is most
interested in, too.

And whereas the "story-teller" Jungian's approach would be to identify the
different persons in the story with aspects of the psyche and then "retell"
the story from that perspective, the "pattern-seeker" Jungian's approach
might be to meditate on that formal quasi-geometric, quasi-logical setup,
and see what it had to say about the nature of thought and reflection.

Neither one, it seems to me, is necessarily to be preferred to the other,
except in terms of one's own tastes and proclivities, and both can be
depthful and revelatory -- though the story-telling approach may seem
"unclear" to a "T' type person, while the pattern-seeking approach may seem
"heartless" to an "F"...

Your word "vectors" strikes me as suggesting a similar "pattern-seeking"
sensibility on your part, and I therefore wonder whether you might find
myth was far more congenial to you -- and Hoon's task a whole lot easier --
if you looked at myth not as "story to be read" nor even as "story to be
understood psychologically", but as "imaginative patterning".

The archetypal imagination is as profound in its structures as it is in its
stories, in other words, and if you're "structurally inclined" I suspect
you'd find myth very much to your taste if approached from the angle of
"pattern" rather than "story"...

Hoon, Anita?  Any comments?

Hope this helps,



--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:02:54 -0500
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Dear All--gosh, it seems just when I post then I get to disappear. I'm
headed out to the Black Hills (of South Dakota), with trips through the
Badlands, to Mount Rushmore, and caving for 3 days with a 10 year old
(my very extroverted daughter) and an 11 yr old (her much more
introverted but highly competetive boy cousin). I'm hoping to keep all
busy enough that there is no time to quibble and that they are
sufficiently awed by what we see that they mellow out a bit (otherwise
we may revert to Druid-type sacrifices). Be back this weekend.  --Susan

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Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:24:01 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: incipient burning, big stories, lightning, loving, myth

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 00:14:51 +0300, Anita Konkka  wrote:

>Hello all friends of the ants,
>
> After the  Midsummer's love orgy ...
.........
>    The  story  of   Eros and Psyche .... Last  autumn ...  gave rise to " the great gender war".
>Hopefully that  will not happen any more...
>  ... When I  finished [my lecture] the silence was deep and
>chilling,   no   response, no questions, no discussion....   Obviously my  speech
> was   inappropriate.
>
>...
>
>Ps. Nancy, I'm thinking  of your dream.   You have    symbols  of  the
>psychic wholeness in the dream , as if  your  soul  ( if not  Psyber-soul)
>was drawn   from  the shades   for the  light  and the centre ( i.e.  for
>the Self) .
>
>___----------
N:Thank,you, Anita, for your comments.  I was beginning to  feel  that my dream
would pass into the Archives unnoticed.
   Like you, I understood the 'table' to be a Self symbol, and also the roses....(one for each on the List, perhaps?)  The sun, too, which probably harks back to Walter's and my original conversation
regarding the sun (and the moon).
  Since then he and I have not understood one another so well.  Just after my
dream posting I dreamt of being zapped by (dis) a ray from H. G. Well's War of
the Worlds. A fitting symbol for the alien power of the disembodied patriarchy
in relation to the feminine, I thought.  And then a conjunctio dream of becoming engaged to a friend here on the steps of the Temple of Isis in Assisi (see Brother
Sun, Sister Moon, the story of Francis and Clare). )
  Your reference to the almost dionysian solstice celebration in Finland interested me.  I marvel that in 13 years of close proximity  man from Finland I never heard of it.
  On a 'white night' I mentioned earlier we saunaed, then dipped into the cool (nay, cold!) waters of a lake.  Though raised with
considerable nudity for an American, I donned a bathing suit for the dip.  I was
3 months pregnant and a little shy to be seen by my father-in-law.  I thought my
 in-laws, Helvi and Iivar,  were a little offended that I remained clothed, she
particularly.
  Speaking of Iivar, he earned his PhD with a thesis titled "The Ballad of Lady Isabel and the False Knight" an exploration of the tale we in the U.S. know best as "Bluebeard".  Freud is mentioned once.  Jung not at all.  But then the work
 is more a historical acounting than a psychological one.
  Regarding your lecture, did you not suppose that some element of wholeness
was served by you Jungian approach? I am glad to see camps of the neo-Jungians exploring the work of neo-Freudians.  And hope we may end by having the best of both worlds.
        Best wishes to you in your writing, loves and garden,
               Nancy






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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:18:20 -0600
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Nnancy,

Your drean has not been forgotten by me ... I will be coming to it soon.
I just returned from a weekend with my family, a Father's day week-end.
I will be back to speak here on PSYBER-L later this evening.  I am just
on my way out the door to attend a session of analysis.

Rrobert

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Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 18:19:20 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Nnancy's dream

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:18:20 -0600, Robert Longpre  wrote:

>Nnancy,
>
>Your drean has not been forgotten by me ... I will be coming to it soon.
-----
Nn:  Good I will be waiting with open Ppsyce.
-----
>I just returned from a weekend with my family, a Father's day week-end.
-----
N: I thought of you (and other guys here) yesterday and hoped you were having
a good one.  Will my kids had been(or even now were) so lucky, particularly the boys.  (Hoon is the same type as my 2nd, I believe....ENFP? )
-----
>I will be back to speak here on PSYBER-L later this evening.  I am just
>on my way out the door to attend a session of analysis.
----
N: I've been browsing around the Archives again and was aghast to read what
Jim had to say to you.  Blessed be for Anita's rebuttal.  I've had a good deal
of Analysis myself both Freudian (well, Sulivanian.) and Jungian.  Even the 'bad'
experiences have transmuted to some degree.
------
>
>Rrobert
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:27:51 +1200
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From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Nnancy's dream
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Can't stay silent...


>N: I thought of you (and other guys here) yesterday and hoped you were having
>a good one.  Will my kids had been(or even now were) so lucky,
particularly the boys.  (Hoon is the same type as my 2nd, I believe....ENFP? )

Hoon is the same type as me also . an ENFP.. !

So there it is.

Amen

---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
                ( miles )

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:46:11 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: two approaches myth / was Re: [P] incipient burning &c
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>Judith writes:
>
>> I'm not a myth person no matter how hard Hoon tries to get to
>> me see... I'm on the other side of the myth in the vectors...

>[Charles in response] understood psychologically", but as "imaginative
>patterning".
>

Charles,

(Judith, pardon me, while I interpret you and glorify you.)

I believe Judith to be a bit overly self-effacing on this matter of myth.
Yet, your characterization "imaginative patterning" is what Judith does as
well as her ability to 'story', (making of it a verb.)

Still, to take the "story as it is" is different than actively imagining
about the story's currency in a personal, psychological sense. Judith gets
it and to her credit, her natural dissonance is mostly with the
terminology. She is to reification what anti-matter is to matter. :-)

***

This is of great interest here and Judith and my work, which dovetails with
yours Charles conceptually, although, the 'vectors' in Judith's parlance,
will turn out to be something different than a 'structural inclination',
despite patterns and structures, geometry if you will, figure into it. Even
Jung didn't approach the work in terms of working with the geometric
energies of the system.

One way to sense this is to wander about this kind of manifestation: *being
the vectors*. This is how I would put but I'm immensely fortunate, I get to
be around Judith!

Umm, Judith?

****

Last night Judith and I got together and got no work done but we got a lot
of Play accomplished as we vibed about stories, their *size*, locus of
focus, and what such things might have to do with *shifting the system*.
This has a lot to do with intention, reconceiving one's own 'bigness' and
applying the now bigger story to the situation.

One thing I note in our working with people, is that the learning styles
are so different but the a-ha when the rock is overturned and there
underneath it is the golden spider, (or whatever imagination the new story
is working to evoke,) vibration-wise feels to me always to be rightness and
awe.

Just how I sense such matters...yet so pertinent here in the land of INFP.

***

peace,

HooN

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Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:17:15 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Nnancy's dream

On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:27:51 +1200, Miles Thompson  wrote:

>Can't stay silent...
-------
N: And why should you stay silent, Milo, when everyone seemed to enjoy your
advent so much?

>
>Hoon is the same type as me also . an ENFP.. !
>
>So there it is.
----
N:  'The awful truth is out?'  Never thought I'd see the day in our society.  Let's hear it for the Extroverts, folks.  Where would we be without them?
----------
>
>Amen
>--------
              Ah, men.......  Nnancy
>---------------_---------
>           o  | |
> _  _  _      | |  _   ,
>/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
>  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
>                ( miles )
>-----
N: Gotta learn to do that....before the machine distortion, that is........
>_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:50:23 -0600
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Nancy

> c Nancy Smith, 7:17 am  Wed. June 17, 1998
> a dream fragment (recorded around 9am Sunday, June 14, 1998)

Responding to the dream of another can be done many ways.  The one that
I feel most comfortable in this medium is that of "resonation"

> I was in the cooking/business area of a small restaurant.  This area was at one end
> of the room with no walls dividing it from the dining area.  I was trying to tidy up.

In terms of this Psyberspace ... fire, heat, boiling, stirring up of
contents
... where are the boundaries? ... contents spilling out onto the those
who witness the process ... and drawing others into the soup ... and the
reasoned retreat into rational dialogue brimming with apology ... washed
in tears

> A man admonished me for not having kept up with the laundry.(1)

... animus activated and demanding logical containment of the messy
feelings and emotions of the feminine (anima .... this is not in
reference to males or females but to expressed and/or repressed ways of
interacting and relating) that run unchecked raising havoc ... desired
calmness is messed up and needs to be cleaned, sterilized and made neat
...

> I continued to tidy, sorting the files at my desk, wondering what to leave for my
> successor. (2)

... reaching into the archives, into the threads of the past which are
brought forward, trying to find keys that open doors to transformation
... building a sense of presence in order to build memory ... building
relation in non-place of psyberspace ...

> Then, turning from tidying, I gathered food on my tray.(3) I and a male companion (4)
> carried our trays toward the small table area.  We were accompanied by a hostess.(5)

... the wolf and the lamb together ... chaperoned ... (thinking again of
the recent reunion of male and female here, a reunion which was marked
with the presence of the feminine (hostess) ...

> magic table which shrank just right for the two of us, yet retained the ability to
> enlarge to welcome any who might join us.  The sunlight bathed us without overheating
> or shining in the eyes of either.

... the enlargement and the contraction of dialogues ... democratic ...
anti-inflationary ... clear sight rather than blindered by projection
...

>   Of the dream I entrust the other, more collective images and symbols to your own
> competent psyches.  All have their own meaning for me.

Regardless of perceived skill and certificates and diplomas of "others",
the "self"  is the best judge of a dream's interpretation.  What I
resonate to in speaking of "your" dream says more about me than it does
about your dream.  I wonder what it says about me?  How do you resonate
with my resonance?

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 03:29:18 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: dream
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Dear Robert,

What a load of Psycho babble!

Love

Dolores

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 20:36:46 -0600
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Dolores wrote:
>
> Dear Robert,
>
> What a load of Psycho babble!
>
> Love
>
> Dolores

Thanks :)  I am to please :)  Did I do a good job of it?  I'm still
learning :)  Now, Dolores, in your opinion should I order the brass
plate advertising my practice?

Robert ... and ant in disguise

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Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:05:38 -0400
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From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
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Nancy Smith wrote:

> N: I've been browsing around the Archives again and was aghast to read what
> Jim had to say to you.  Blessed be for Anita's rebuttal.  I've had a good deal
> of Analysis myself both Freudian (well, Sulivanian.) and Jungian.  Even the 'bad'
> experiences have transmuted to some degree.
> ------

Hmmm ... and I continue to be 'aghast' at this group's tolerance (actually celebration of) self indulgent navel gazing.  Keep in mind what's at
the down end of the navel - is it really where you want to go today?

Nnancy ... Rrobert ... A... a...all.                                    Th ... Th ... that's all folks!

...Jim

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Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:55:02 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
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Dear Robert,

Don't forget to use brass screws, looks tacky otherwise.

But you are most def ready for the brass plate, you need an office with
some carefully placed ink blot prints, a few pongy candles, a few ethnic
throw rugs, and one of those ceramic phrenology heads, and you'll be all
set for business.
No desk though, too officious, sofas are good and a cat wandering around.
Ashtrays good, you'll never get the best out of a smoker when they are
sitting their dying for a ciggie fix. Pays to be a passive smoker when your
a shrink.

Love

Dolores.

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Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:18:35 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Nnancy's dream/Jim

On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:05:38 -0400, Jim Calder  wrote:
------
N: Hi Jim,  It seems that I allowed empathy to triumph over prudence.  When I
 ran across the name 'Jim' in the Archives I had no idea it way 'you'.  Or that 'you'
were still with 'us'.  I am not yet so good at relating to many of more abstract
efforts here that do not seem to be directly relevant to my own path.  Perhaps
these are the offering you enjoy?
---------
>Nancy Smith wrote:
>
>> N: I've been browsing around the Archives again and was aghast to read what
>> Jim had to say to you.  Blessed be for Anita's rebuttal.  I've had a good deal
>> of Analysis myself both Freudian (well, Sulivanian.) and Jungian.  Even the 'bad'
>> experiences have transmuted to some degree.
>> ------
>
>Hmmm ... and I continue to be 'aghast' at this group's tolerance (actually celebration of) self indulgent navel gazing.  Keep in mind what's at
>the down end of the navel - is it really where you want to go today?
-------
N:  We can just astay with the navel, thanks.  The site of birth and rebirth,..Connection...Relatedness....
   I have had more than my share of both indulgence and discipline, both outer
and inner.  I must confess I prefer the former (I will not do a smiley face...I will not
do a smiley face...I will not........)
------
>
>Nnancy ... Rrobert ... A... a...all.                                    Th ... Th ... that's all folks!
>-------
N: You see your 'stern' views as a bit...'.fuddy duddy', I wonder?  To indulge in
Jungian babble I might say 'senexy'?  Might you also be a J?  'Bug' off.  Might you be an employer? You are the only other person I've noticed here that, like me, continue to be a victim of 'feminine urban sprawl'  I wonder if it might be
 your anima protesting?   Still you need not 'Bug' off on our account.


      Enquiring P's want to know,
             Nnancy

-------
>...Jim
>
PS  Bach to you'all manana.  Or as we  NP's,  Puer/Puela like to say, 'Never do anything today that can be put off until tomorrow.'
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>

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Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:26:00 -0600
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Dolores,

> Don't forget to use brass screws, looks tacky otherwise.

Thanks for that tip :)

> But you are most def ready for the brass plate, you need an office with
> some carefully placed ink blot prints, a few pongy candles, a few ethnic
> throw rugs, and one of those ceramic phrenology heads, and you'll be all
> set for business.

Well, I already have the office ... oak desk upon which my computer
stands and oak bookshelves ... walls painted two shades of green with a
border running just over the halfway mark around the wall.  Degrees
hanging on the walls in gold frames with green matte.  Certificates and
business license on the adjoining wall.  Comfy armchair for my visitors
while I sit in my adjustable office chair at the other end of the room
(not near the desk).  A little white table for tea or coffee cups (and
facial tissue).  No cat or ashtrays ... I'm allergic to cigarette smoke
(all smoke), cats, and long-haired dogs amonst other things.  Oh yes, I
forgot to mention the plants and the collection of frogs, ceramic and
stone and velour that I seem to have collected over the years, most of
them as gifts from students and friends.

now, if you are ever passing though Saskatchewan ...

love

Robert

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Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:47:50 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: two approaches myth
In-Reply-To:  <v04011700b1b4a544c7a3@[207.54.160.84]>
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I know it's basically obscene for a person who doesn't write to promote
clarity to wish to clarify, but since all my proofreading is done after the
fact, sometimes it's necessary. excusa

***

<<the 'vectors' in Judith's parlance, will turn out to be something
different than a 'structural inclination', HOWEVER patterns and structures,
geometry if you will, DOES figure into it.>>

I'll allow myself to go a bit further. When Judith brought up the vector
idea as a way of describing her experience, she wondered about how such a
process might be coded. This, in actuality, was inspired by a book,
Fermat's Theorem, serendipitously falling into her hands.

Now, I proposed to her that this coding wasn't really a mathematical
problem, or a mathematical coding, as it were. It seemed too grand a 'need'
on the one hand, and I was aware of mathematical inadequacies when it comes
to formally, within a calculus, regarding qualia and process. (I cannot put
my hand on the book, but there's a wonderful description of vector's in one
of Feynman's QED lectures, which is metaphorically close to the dance
Judith describes. I'll have to dig it up.)

Anyway...I haven't tried to sort it out as a mathematical coding, which
might mean I fall short of the largest possible story.

***

But, this only reminds me the *good enough* story is almost always larger
than the story we're inmeshed in. And an inflated story might be one in
which the ant's instinctual discrimination is left behind and below and the
necessary workaday task becomes remote. little steps...

well, this should make the whole shebang perfectly clear!

***

braying and babbling,

HooN

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Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:57:19 -0500
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Subject:      Re: Nnancy's dream
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Jim,

LOL.

>Hmmm ... and I continue to be 'aghast' at this group's tolerance (actually
>celebration of) self indulgent navel gazing.

What a funny thing to say! Aghast, huh?

So much to celebrate, so little time. Another way to look at our self
indulgent behavior is to consider it our hobby.

oh: *Aghast*

a ghast (=FA-gast) adj. Struck by shock, terror, or amazement. [Middle
English agast, past participle of agasten, to frighten : a-, intensive
pref. (from Old English E-) + gasten, to frighten (from Old English gestan,
from gEst, ghost).]

***

boo!

HooN

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Date:         Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:43:04 -0600
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Jim,

Good to hear from you again :)  Nancy wasn't around for the warm-up to
that dialogue.  Though the post did evoke some pain, that was my pain.
Our dialog was honest and I think well finished.  There is a problem not
only with taking words from a post as it takes away from the context.
There is also a problem taking a full post out of the thread of posts as
again context is lost.  Even with most of the context in place, there is
a need to accept the perceptions that each of us has for any given post
as legitimate.  There is much in what we say and write that has an
unconscious nature.  We are blind to our own words, deaf to our own
speech where others are not.


> Hmmm ... and I continue to be 'aghast' at this group's tolerance
> (actually celebration of) self indulgent navel gazing.  Keep in
> mind what's at the down end of the navel - is it really where you
> want to go today?

Why not?  Pretty fertile territory for the most part.  I continue to be
amazed at the tendency for many to deny that territory ... talk about
being haunted by original sin, by the horrible carnality ... actually,
Eros is interesting (and in my opinion a fascinating study).  But then,
I also get my hands into the messy aspects as well ... I'm a shit
disturber as well as poet :)

> Nnancy ... Rrobert ... A... a...all.                                    Th ... Th ... that's all folks!

Nice talking to you "Elmer" ...

Robert

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Date:         Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:50:49 +1200
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From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
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Sorry if you received this more than once, but .

> N: advent
> N: Blessed
> N: 'feminine urban sprawl'
> N: anima
> N: smiley face...
> N: astay
>
>
> astay ?
> - is that even a word ?
>
>Jesus

---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
                ( miles )

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Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:53:17 -0400
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From:         "Nancy S. Smith" <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Automatic digest:  Dream/Robert and Nancy confering
Comments: cc: odyssey@cybersurf.net

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:50:23 -0600
From:    Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject: Re: dream

Nancy:   Ah, Here you are, Robert.  When I found the main dining room
closed because of a 'server immergency' I began to fear I'd missed our
conference.  There, let me just clear away some of these papers from
yesterday  and we can begin.  Luckily I've brought coffee.  It's iced,
I'm afraid.  You may enjoy the hint of Irish Creamora.  If you prefer
yours hot, you can stick your mug in the microwave for a minute.
  Isn't the garden lovely this morning?  I love the way the early sun
comes in through the diamond panes to warm these stone benches.
   Oh, and I brought two navel oranges, one each.  They're quite good,
though we must be careful not to get the juice upon the 'case' papers.
  Now let's begin.


> c Nancy Smith, 7:17 am  Wed. June 17, 1998
> a dream fragment (recorded around 9am Sunday, June 14, 1998)

Robert: Responding to the dream of another can be done many ways.  The
one that
I feel most comfortable in this medium is that of "resonation"

Nancy:  Yes, I too am comfortable with that.  Let's see...
I dreamed: > I was in the cooking/business area of a small restaurant.
>This area was at one end
> of the room with no walls dividing it from the dining area.  I was
trying >to tidy up.

Robert :  In terms of this Psyberspace ... fire, heat, boiling, stirring
up of
contents
... where are the boundaries? ... contents spilling out onto the those
who witness the process ... and drawing others into the soup ... and the
reasoned retreat into rational dialogue brimming with apology ... washed
in tears

Nancy: Yes I can certainly appreciate and share those concerns.  Yet in
the dream the dining kitchen, office, dining hall and garden are well
contained.  There are demarkations between areas yet they all open to
oneanother.  The boundaries are the walls that close the inner area away
from the outside world.  Even the outside doors are well hidden, not in
evidence. Outside in the garden the stone wall shelters.  Curious bodies
could peer over it if they stood on something, but even then they would
have trouble seeing into the hall where we dine together at the round
table.  But to move on

I dreamed:> A man admonished me for not having kept up with the
laundry.(1)

Robert: Hmmm... animus activated and demanding logical containment of the
messy
feelings and emotions of the feminine (anima .... this is not in
reference to males or females but to expressed and/or repressed ways of
interacting and relating) that run unchecked raising havoc ... desired
calmness is messed up and needs to be cleaned, sterilized and made neat
...
Nancy: Yes.  I take your point, I think.  Still it is my sense that he
(Walter, April 30) extorted me to go home and clean up my act.  Then if I
changed to clean clothes, perhaps a bit more taylored, I might rejoin the
group and participate.  It is perhaps you, Robert, who must speak to
'anima'.  I am not sure whether I agree with Hillman's contention that
men and females alike possess anima and animus.  Although it does seem to
fit here to regard the
hostess: Dolores and Judith as expressions of my animas rather than
shadow.  Also I could easily subscribe to your recent flurry with
Julienne as an engagement of your two animus.  How do you feel about the?

Well, while you're mulling,  I will return to my dream:> I continued to
tidy, >sorting the files at my desk, wondering what to leave for my
> successor. (2)

Robert:... reaching into the archives, into the threads of the past which
are
brought forward, trying to find keys that open doors to transformation
... building a sense of presence in order to build memory ... building
relation in non-place of psyberspace ...

Nancy: Yes, that is very good, I think.  Often of late I've found myself
humming, "Getting to know you..." from the King and I.
    Still in the dream I do none of these things, but turn ...

> Then, turning from tidying, I gathered food on my tray.(3) I and a male
>companion (4)
> carried our trays toward the small table area.  We were accompanied by
a hostess.(5)

Robert::... the wolf and the lamb together ... chaperoned ... (thinking
again of
the recent reunion of male and female here, a reunion which was marked
with the presence of the feminine (hostess) ...

Nancy: Now here I think our paths diverge...that we walk no longer
hand-in-hand, but with green shrubs and roses between us.  Whoops, be
careful not to spill your coffee.  Someone seems to have left a
scate...skate on the garden path.
  There, that's better.  You can still hear me, I think, as I paraphrase
something I read in a book by Nathan Schwartz-Salant.  It went something
like this: "In dream interpretation, you must not make a dog into a horse
for to do so damages the work of the soul".  You and I are just two
persons sitting here.  I see no  animals although there is of course the
invisible lamb and the sheep in each.  Whoops!  There goes a skink....or
is it a salamander...See there?  Under the bench.  The presence of
lizards in a garden is a good omen, I think.
  Being two adults, we are not in need of a chaperon, though it is true
that we sit here in full view of hostess, coworkers and owner, all.  But
to return...

I dreamt: > magic table which shrank just right for the two of us, yet
>retained the ability to
> enlarge to welcome any who might join us.  The sunlight bathed us
without overheating
> or shining in the eyes of either.

Robert:... the enlargement and the contraction of dialogues ...
democratic ...
anti-inflationary ... clear sight rather than blindered by projection
...
Nancy: Yes, that makes good sense.
  Look there's Walter out for a stroll.  I don't think he sees us yet.
But scrunch over a little and make some room so he can join us if he
wants.
  The matin bell will ring soon.  Have you ever noticed how it sounds a
bit like Mike Rowland's recording of "Fairy Ring"?  Then we must go off
to see what the Proctor and Proctoress have to say at assemby.
  After that I must take Bear for a walk and then off to a Chiropractor
appt.
And I know you also have things to do also.
  But first...
Nancy:>   Of the dream I entrust the other, more collective images and
symbols to your own
> competent psyches.  All have their own meaning for me.

Regardless of perceived skill and certificates and diplomas of "others",
the "self"  is the best judge of a dream's interpretation.  What I
resonate to in speaking of "your" dream says more about me than it does
about your dream.  I wonder what it says about me?  How do you resonate
with my resonance?
Nancy: Robert, I belief I heard you asking something like, 'And what do
you think of me (as seen in this 'resonance'), Nancy?"  Fortunately we
have a little time left.  How can I
answer that?  Hmmm...well...I think you are a very gentle and perceptive
man.  One who is, perhaps, somewhat afraid of what his inner wolf may do
to the lambs of this world (both inner and outter)...so much so that a
shaperon...chaperon may be required.  I wonder what sort of training that
wolf was given as a pup?  I love my inner wolf and sometimes observe her
far-seeing, meditative gaze in the eyes of my black lab, Bear.  In you I
have somewhat less the fear that the wolf will bite the lamb that the
lamb and it's wool might inflate to smother the wolf.  What do you think?

        Robert

Oh!  There peals the bell and we must away.  Perhaps we can do this again
someday?  Perhaps you might feel like bring a dream?  Though, in truth
our morning conference has been something of 'a dream walking....'.....
       Anon,  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:38:21 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Nnancy's dream

On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:50:49 +1200, Miles Thompson  wrote:

>Sorry if you received this more than once, but .
>
>> N: advent
>> N: Blessed
>> N: 'feminine urban sprawl'
>> N: anima
>> N: smiley face...
>> N: astay
>>
>>
>> astay ?
>> - is that even a word ?
N: Well, geez, Miles, it is now, ain't it?  "Where two or more are gathered in my name..."  (Think I 'mean't (dis-) a-rray, but have mislaid the context along with most of the rest of my mind today!)
  Good to see you here again, doing a HooN.

>>Jesus
>
               Isis
>---------------_---------
>           o  | |
> _  _  _      | |  _   ,
>/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
>  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
>                ( miles )
>
  I gotta learn to do that!  Right after I finish staring at my navel, if that day ever comes! Though I enjoy staring at other navels too, just for variety.  Dang.  This patriarchal computer keeps trying to contain my feminine Urban sprawl by oscracizing it way down off in the left hand bottom corner here.
I won't 'correct' but invite the groups projections as to what puter and I are drawing here.
Hope it isn't anuthing 'dirty'.
   Ancyone?
  Nancyone________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
No.  Thankyouverymuch.  I'm staying ...and keepyouropinionstoyourselfinfuture,
youalieninanimatethingieyou.  So there!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:44:05 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Nnancy's dream

Humph...that was odd.  In the 'post' box mine and puter's last message looked rather
like a giant, male cartoon head with 'his' tongue stuck out rudely.
  Now what am I to learn from that?
       NNNNNnnnnn-ancy

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Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:36:08 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: two approaches myth / was Re: [P] incipient burning &c
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Charles,
Thank you for your thot provoking input...I'll need to ponder a bit because
my mind doesn't *think* the way yours does...yet in my experience, from
unalignment and juxtaposition comes knowing...so here goes my try at this

>Judith, all:
>
>Judith writes:
>
>> I'm not a myth person no matter how hard Hoon tries to get to
>> me see... I'm on the other side of the myth in the vectors...
>
>I'm not sure whether this question will work for you, maybe it will: when
>you say you're not a myth person, do you mean you're not a story person, or
>that you're not a pattern person?

I'm not a story person in probably the sensse you are using the word...I am
mostly a pattern person, but the patterns are about vectors meaning the
resonances of the words beginning to find their *tune* if you will and then
a picture arises...never can I *think* it into being...it emerges...and I
just have to wait
>
>I suspect that many people approach myth as story: but Marie Lousie von
>Franz, one of the great figures in the Jungian tradition, wrote (in
>*Alchemy*, Inner City, p 185):
>
>::  Because I am a thinking type, I admire the thinking in the
>::  unconscious, the wonderful structure in it...
>
>That's my own style of approach to myth, and it's a very different one from
>the story-teller's.  Let me give you an example.
>
>In the myth, Narcissus sees his own reflection in a pool, and his words are
>echoed back to him by Echo.  For me, this is an example of something I
>might call "imaginative geometry": echo is reflected sound, the mirroring
>pool is reflected sight, so they are both *reflections*.  There's a logic
>at work there, in other words, which we can express by some such notation
>as:
>
>    echo : sound :: pool : sight
>
>with an underlying "third" clause present by implication:
>
>    echo : sound :: pool : sight :: reflection : thought

I see the logic and what you mean, but I could never get to *echo sound
pool sight*...and if I could it would have no meaning to me in the framing
in which I hold this reality...I *feel* (read: sense vibrations, not
emotions) the logic that underlies a pattern...and it is multidimensional
and non linear...and one might hold the pattern one way from one locus of
focus and another from another...this then is an orientation in
relationship to the context...a multiplicity of vectors...

>
>I'm not sure about Jung, who looks at mythic symbols in his own unique way,
>but I'm certain that Claude Levi-Strauss in his magnificent four volume
>*Mythologiques* / *Introduction to a Science of Mythology* is looking at
>myth and finding just this kind of patterning of elements, and my suspicion
>is that this is the kind of "reading" of myths that von Franz is most
>interested in, too.

>
>And whereas the "story-teller" Jungian's approach would be to identify the
>different persons in the story with aspects of the psyche and then "retell"
>the story from that perspective, the "pattern-seeker" Jungian's approach
>might be to meditate on that formal quasi-geometric, quasi-logical setup,
>and see what it had to say about the nature of thought and reflection.

This is helpful...what I get from the Jungian approach as you iterate it
here is that there is an assumption of *the* nature of thought and
reflection...as I understand as I've reflected with Hoon about this I look
at his way of being as a framing...meaning like working a
program...however, I don't think he thinks of it this way...maybe

>
>Neither one, it seems to me, is necessarily to be preferred to the other,
>except in terms of one's own tastes and proclivities, and both can be
>depthful and revelatory -- though the story-telling approach may seem
>"unclear" to a "T' type person, while the pattern-seeking approach may seem
>"heartless" to an "F"...

Yes, I agree...sort of there are many roads to travel...As an F I don't see
patterns as heartless, tho, so we may not be using the words in the same
way
>
>Your word "vectors" strikes me as suggesting a similar "pattern-seeking"
>sensibility on your part, and I therefore wonder whether you might find
>myth was far more congenial to you -- and Hoon's task a whole lot easier --
>if you looked at myth not as "story to be read" nor even as "story to be
>understood psychologically", but as "imaginative patterning".

Yes, this might assist but to what end is the *imaginative patterning*? I
admit readily that I am not interested or in the past have not been
interested in anything psychological (yes, and then what am I doing here
right?), too restrictive tho I know in recent times there is an opening to
a greater if I may the word *story* ;-)

>
>The archetypal imagination is as profound in its structures as it is in its
>stories, in other words, and if you're "structurally inclined" I suspect
>you'd find myth very much to your taste if approached from the angle of
>"pattern" rather than "story"...

Yes, however, it took me until about 5 years ago to be able to get the word
*archetype* to make any sense, I couldn't get it because I was on the other
side of it...when I came in closer I could sense what it meant...which was
greatly informed by Rupert Sheldrake's morphegentic field and David Peat's
Hilbert Space...words and images have been cumbersome to me...I am on the
other side of these in the vibrations which is where the vectors exist...it
isn't about mathematics in the sense of being able to use it...it is about
what mathematics is on the other side of it...same place...

It is very hard to put into words...I was at a ssession with one of my
healers the other day and I had mentioned the place where I go to get
information and to make patterns...the first thing she said to me was that
she was meditating and she ended up where I go and it was as I had
described...she explained what she had sensed and for the first time
someone in my life understood what continues to be impossi ble for me to
word...my skill set not up to the task...

This is helpful Charles, and I thank you for engaging knowing how full your
*story* is at the moment..

Best to you,
Judith
>Hoon, Anita?  Any comments?
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>
>
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>
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Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:11:41 -0400
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Subject:      Re: two approaches myth / was Re: [P] incipient burning &c
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Hoon, Charles,
something popped for me...see below

>>Judith writes:
>>
>>> I'm not a myth person no matter how hard Hoon tries to get to
>>> me see... I'm on the other side of the myth in the vectors...
>
>>[Charles in response] understood psychologically", but as "imaginative
>>patterning".
>>
>
>Charles,
>
>(Judith, pardon me, while I interpret you and glorify you.)
>
>I believe Judith to be a bit overly self-effacing on this matter of myth.
>Yet, your characterization "imaginative patterning" is what Judith does as
>well as her ability to 'story', (making of it a verb.)
>
>Still, to take the "story as it is" is different than actively imagining
>about the story's currency in a personal, psychological sense. Judith gets
>it and to her credit, her natural dissonance is mostly with the
>terminology. She is to reification what anti-matter is to matter. :-)
>
>***
>
>This is of great interest here and Judith and my work, which dovetails with
>yours Charles conceptually, although, the 'vectors' in Judith's parlance,
>will turn out to be something different than a 'structural inclination',
>despite patterns and structures, geometry if you will, figure into it. Even
>Jung didn't approach the work in terms of working with the geometric
>energies of the system.
>
>One way to sense this is to wander about this kind of manifestation: *being
>the vectors*. This is how I would put but I'm immensely fortunate, I get to
>be around Judith!
>
>Umm, Judith?
>
>****
>
>Last night Judith and I got together and got no work done but we got a lot
>of Play accomplished as we vibed about stories, their *size*, locus of
>focus, and what such things might have to do with *shifting the system*.
>This has a lot to do with intention, reconceiving one's own 'bigness' and
>applying the now bigger story to the situation.

Wow...here's what emerged from yours and Charles engagement...in reading
myths it is about a given time and space and evolution of consciousness to
that point ala the 9 stories...but the complexity of consciousness emerging
is greater than these, more multidimensional, non local, non linear...I am
about futuring, that's the equation I've been given, not about what the
stories have been but what possibly is the *new* myth emerging...what are
the new archetypes being created? not to discredit the myths because they
serve an element of the evolution, however, in my way of viewing they can't
serve the future...there needs to be a bifracation... so it is about
exploring inner space as Willis Harmon has called it...and inorder to shift
the system one has to sense the vectors which are emerging deep in inner
space and *story* those...maybe

>One thing I note in our working with people, is that the learning styles
>are so different but the a-ha when the rock is overturned and there
>underneath it is the golden spider, (or whatever imagination the new story
>is working to evoke,) vibration-wise feels to me always to be rightness and
>awe.

Yep...thanks for the rock turn, guys

Judith
>Just how I sense such matters...yet so pertinent here in the land of INFP.
>
>***
>
>peace,
>
>HooN
>
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Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:23:23 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: two approaches myth / was Re: [P] incipient burning &c
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Hey all
just as I was beginning to get something I have to be off to play in the
pulp with a New Zealand papermaker who is somewhere in Wisconsin-better get
my vectors workin'

Back Tuesday
Love and kisses,
Judith papermaker-in-progress

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:50:03 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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Dear All,

I have met a girl on irc, through a friend. The friend is concerned because
the girl is 23, and has spent the last year as a slave to some guy in
Texas. This basically involves her confined to the house 24 hours a day, or
if she is very lucky she gets a trip to a slave party where she's publicly
flogged and had by all. When I spoke to her I asked her if he ever took her
out, and she said, only into the back yard.
She is tied up most of the day, when I asked her what would happen if there
was a fire, she replied she was sure there would be some provision for
that. I asked her if there was a fire that very second, if she knew what
the provision would be, and she said no, she'd probably burn.
She sleeps all day, in between bouts of servitude since she has nothing to
do except sleep, do the housework,(restraints permitting) obey any orders,
and use the p.c.
She said, she loved her life, loved being tied and loved being punished.
I can't believe that this is either mentally or physically good  for
anybody. She's formed an attatchment to the friend I mentioned which
basically means that he is the one focus outside her normal life.
Apparently if he goes away for a day or two she becomes very disturbed, so
much so that the Master (gross) threatens to take the p.c away. When he
does that she gets very agitated etc. My friend thinks he has a
responsibility to her now he can't get out of, to be there for her several
hours a day. I keep pointing out to him that that responsibility will only
get worse.He thinks he can help her, I think that he is doing more harm
than good, and that eventually he will end up hurting her more, because she
is locked into a world of four walls and a computer. She hides her identity
that way. When you don't have an identity you can't get hurt.
This is really complex stuff and I'm way out of my depth on giving advice.
I don't dare give her any advice because if I said to her what I really
thought it would't do her any favours. The problem is while I'm getting her
to talk to me, she's also forming an attatchment to me thats getting quite
evident now and for me very frightening.
Half of me wants out of this, I don't want the responsibility, to me its
difficult to comprehend why anybody would chose to live this kind of life,
it doesn't equate that she could be truly happy. She has zero self respect.
I want to shake the living daylights out of her and tell her that abuse is
not love. Being abused isn't how you show somebody you love them either.
Its quite obvious that from the chats I've had with her and my friend, that
the MASTER, has absoloutly no respect for her, but she can't see it. He
doesn't love her, he is married, she's locked away in his secret world, he
sleeps at night with his wife and 2.2 children. She sleeps tied to wherever
he decides to tie her.
Half of me wants to hug her, wants to tell her life doesn't have to be like
this, to haul her kicking and screaming out of wherever it is she is. I
don't know how. She doesn't see she has a problem. My friend has asked me
to help, I told him I didn't know how. I told him I saw the whole situation
as a keg of dynamite where somebodys lit a slow fuse.
I need help, my friend needs help, he doesn't see a way out without fucking
up somebody who is already pretty fucked up.
She doesn't want help, she doesn't think she needs it.

I don't believe that this kind of extreme perversion is a natural human
condition, I think its something generated from circumstance and a need to
protect, to somehow be wanted, desired and a lack of idendity, and self
respect. I want to help her, I don't know how.

Please help me..

Love Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:44:26 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: two approaches myth
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Judith:

I once saw, in one of those moments when the inner eye has a very clear
front and center image, an outspread eagle's wing, and not superimposed on
it or secondary to it but integral with it, the lines of the geometrical
configuration of, so to speak, muscle and feather.

The more I read of your words here on this topic, the more I feel we are
speaking of the same kind of apprehension: my phrase "quasi-geometry" is my
attempt to break the seeming linearity of the formulation "echo : sound ::
pool : sight" -- which from my point of view is a crystal, more like:

      echo   :  sound

       ..        ..

      pool   :  sight

in any case, dropped into the pool of meditation, dissolving there into
"reflective mind" -- and sending out ripples in as many directions /
dimensions as you will.

[If you're reading this in a variable space typeface like Times Roman,
you'll need to go to a monospaced font like Courier to "see" my diagram the
way I intend it.]

That there is also a difference between our experiences I am sure.  And I
suspect that we might capture it by saying that you tend to "ride" the
vectors (my "ripples", I think) while I tend to "map" them: flight of the
eagle, geometry of the eagle's flight.

How does that strike you?

With best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:27:44 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980624045003.007ad900@easynet.co.uk>
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At 04:50 AM 6/24/98 +0100, Delores wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>I have met a girl on irc, through a friend. The friend is concerned because
>the girl is 23, and has spent the last year as a slave to some guy in
>Texas. This basically involves her confined to the house 24 hours a day, or
>if she is very lucky she gets a trip to a slave party where she's publicly
>flogged and had by all. When I spoke to her I asked her if he ever took her
>out, and she said, only into the back yard.
>She is tied up most of the day, when I asked her what would happen if there
>was a fire, she replied she was sure there would be some provision for
>that. I asked her if there was a fire that very second, if she knew what
>the provision would be, and she said no, she'd probably burn.

>I don't believe that this kind of extreme perversion is a natural human
>condition, I think its something generated from circumstance and a need to
>protect, to somehow be wanted, desired and a lack of idendity, and self
>respect. I want to help her, I don't know how.

Dolores,

It is illegal to enslave anyone. Someone has to get in touch with
the police a soon as possible before she is killed.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 01:37:22 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: help Required..

Dolores, I find this story fairly incredible.  Do you have a solid bead on the girl's
real-time identity?
  If you are convinced her story is true then I, like Julienne, believe that the first
step needs to be a legal rescue....preferably without advanced warning to any
of the parties involved.
  I've 'bookmarked' the online site for the Attorney General of Texas.  What do
YOU think needs to be done?
        Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 05:40:58 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: two approaches myth
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Charles,

>Judith:
>
>I once saw, in one of those moments when the inner eye has a very clear
>front and center image, an outspread eagle's wing, and not superimposed on
>it or secondary to it but integral with it, the lines of the geometrical
>configuration of, so to speak, muscle and feather.

Beautiful...this makes sense and the image assists comprehension
>
>The more I read of your words here on this topic, the more I feel we are
>speaking of the same kind of apprehension: my phrase "quasi-geometry" is my
>attempt to break the seeming linearity of the formulation "echo : sound ::
>pool : sight" -- which from my point of view is a crystal, more like:
>
>      echo   :  sound
>
>       ..        ..
>
>      pool   :  sight
>
>in any case, dropped into the pool of meditation, dissolving there into
>"reflective mind" -- and sending out ripples in as many directions /
>dimensions as you will.

Yes I now see what you mean...I think this is a part of my dilemma...I have
difficulty translating what I *sense* which is multidimensional into
linearity...which *story* in a sense :-) is...
>
>[If you're reading this in a variable space typeface like Times Roman,
>you'll need to go to a monospaced font like Courier to "see" my diagram the
>way I intend it.]
>
>That there is also a difference between our experiences I am sure.  And I
>suspect that we might capture it by saying that you tend to "ride" the
>vectors (my "ripples", I think) while I tend to "map" them: flight of the
>eagle, geometry of the eagle's flight.
>
>How does that strike you?

Charles, something about form and content and process...I am taken to the
art of Matisse in his late life, his cutout period, where he was attempting
to pull out of his mind's eye this same sense I think...mappingriding...the
form is the content is the form is the contentis the process is the
content...

And also has the element of how the universal toaster *works*...I can be
lost in the beauty of the ride or the flight of the eagle...but my
curiosity takes me to the vector of the vectors...in mapping how the
process works...I remember a huge aha in college algebra when I learned
what a determinate was and had an assignment to work one over the Christmas
holiday...after days and pages of working it, the result was
*zero*...somehow I knew how the toaster worked after that...at least a bit
of it...it resonnated to something very deep which didn't have words for
me...so with this in mind it would take me to what is behind the geometry
of the eagle's flight...

geometry becomes an expression of what?

Charles, I am leaving in an hour for 6 days, so I will ponder your thots
and see what may emerge...thanks so much...

And always best wishes
Judith
>With best wishes,
>
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:08:15 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Hello Andy & David, Bye Jim.
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi all ...

Welcome to Andy and David, I hope you find Psyber-L of interest.

> Sat, 20 Jun 1998 20:18:04

> Andy Edmonds <andyed@PSYBERSPACE.NET> has just subscribed to the PSYBER-L
> list (Psybernet Mailing List).

Andy, I like your address ... fits well with this list as we have used the
word psyberspace here since '93.  What sort of grouping is Psyberspace.net?


~~~


> Sun, 21 Jun 1998 20:41:44

> David Postlethwaite <dave@THE-FREAK-SHOW.DEMON.CO.UK> has just subscribed
> to the PSYBER-L list (Psybernet Mailing List).

Another interesting email address!  I guess every email address has a
story.

Kate left a note by the gate to get an extra bottle of milk.  We still have
milk delivery here, in bottles.  Calling any one a milkman is outrageously
sexist and obsolete in NZ, and milkpersons is too contrived, so she called
them milkdarlings.  Now they use it as their email address.
milkdarlings@xyz.co.nz


~~~


It looks like Jim meant what he said with his "that's all folks", finding
our navel gazing too much.  It is definitely something you must love or
hate, I can see that.  I love it.  I particularly like the way some of the
themes from a year or two ago are still in our consciousness, how we can
dig them up and reflect on them.  I wish i had more time at the moment ...
re-entry after my overseas trip is still not quite complete!  Unexpected
how much energy that has taken me.  I simply have not been able to do the
night shift like I used to!  I am enjoying the posts and Psyber-L.


> Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:56:00
>
> Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA> has just signed off the PSYBER-L list
> (Psybernet Mailing List).




Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:24:57 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998062401372420@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Dear Nancy/Judith

Ok, I don't know American Law, I too was sceptical about all of this but I
made a point of meeting with her etc over the last few weeks, and checking
out her story in as much as possible.
I actually believe that every word she says is true.
She is voluntarily subjecting herself to this because she believe the man
who is doing it to her actually loves her. That she is his *kitten* and
because he provides for her.
Things she says worry me, like for example yesterday, she said I  napped
all afternoon so the time would pass quicker between you and Alex getting
here.
Alex initially asked me to talk to her when her Mistress??? on irc left.
She was very distressed and he thought another woman talking to her would
be a very good idea. I am really starting to regret it though, and I want
to pull out while I'm not going to hurt her. That however isn't helping
Alex or her.
She had to be given permission from her Master to talk to me, this is so
sick even I, who have been there, done that in most things sexual am having
real difficulty in coping. I haven't revealled alot of things to you, cos
if I didn't believe scincerly they were true, now having spoken to her, I
would not believe them myself.
Its enough to say this man is in total control of this girls life, that she
is willingly subitting to this control, and I can see by the things she has
told me that she really really needs help. In her mind she doesn't. She's
owned, he loves her, he protects her.
I really want out, but I will have to live with that, but I can't see how I
can help, and if I get any further involved in this and strengthen an
attatchment thats already forming between her and me, I think I am going to
hurt her even more, and convince her that she is in fact justified in her
lifestyle.

She loves being tied up, I can only think of when I had Tara, and a nurse
said to me, you need to swaddle that baby. I said whats swaddle, she
replied you wrap her up in a blanket so her legs and arms don't move
around. I thought what a load of victorian rubbish, it sounds positively
cruel. Anyway I tried it, Tara immediatly reacted by becoming less fretful,
very content, I think she became very secure. I'm really struggling to
understand this. I've met a lot of  subs/doms, in my irc career, they
generally work to sets of rules that mean nobody gets hurt past a point
where they don't want to be, a lot of time its based on mutual respect. I
don't see this happening here, I see a really sick girl cut off from the
world, and a man who is living a fantasy where he is Master of all he
surveys.

This is really getting to me..


Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:43:30 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: help -Julienne/Nancy
In-Reply-To:  <19980624052800.FSOY5929@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Dear Julienne
>
>It is illegal to enslave anyone. Someone has to get in touch with
>the police a soon as possible before she is killed.
>
>Julienne
>
I don't think that is the danger here, apart from administering punishment
its more of a mental/physical domination thing. I don't think she's in
danger of being murdered if that is what you meant, accidentally killed is
another matter. Like I said about the fire, and I know she has no access to
a telephone. She is also locked in until he gets there.
Remember it is all voluntary.
I imagine if the police arrived she would be removed from them and
immediatly on release go straight back to him, such seems the power he has
over her and after a year I think the transformation into exactly what he
wants is almost complete.

I've just thought of another thing she said to me..she said She sometimes
thought if Alex didn't speak to her she would have forgotten her real name
by now. AARRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!

I have a horrible feeling thats probably what she wants.

Dolores.

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>
>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:35:11 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980624045003.007ad900@easynet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dolores needs help.

>I need help, my friend needs help, he doesn't see a way out without fucking
>up somebody who is already pretty fucked up.
>She doesn't want help, she doesn't think she needs it.

This lurid and ugly report is verified by your friend who has direct
contact with this
abused girl.

I don't see any conundrum *at all*. What you've described is a felony. Your
friend must go to the police.

***

Why the hell would anyone become involved as a witness to horrible abuse
and criminal activity and not even *think* that maybe it was time to get an
authoritative intervention? No excuses needed for not doing this. If your
friend doesn't do anything he's the moral equivalent of a nazi guard.

So: go to the police, the county prosecutor, the social services office,
find a minister; assemble a team to put the Master in jail for a good long
time, an dget the Slave the help she desperately needs.

You think not, Dolores? Perhaps this terribleness should just become fodder
for your internet banter.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:51:06 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980624122457.007b0100@easynet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dolores,

This is outrageous bullshit. You want to struggle to understand with us as
your audience? As I write this to you Dolores, I'm angry and outraged at
your willingness to trot this stuff out in  this manner. You act as if the
person who's distress which needs our attention is you, when the fact is,
you're reporting about someone who is probably in immediate physical
danger. You want some psychological babble to justify your "non-action"
beyond your appalling selfish fear "if I get any further involved in this
and strengthen an attatchment thats already forming between her and me, I
think I am going to hurt her even more, and convince her that she is in
fact justified in her lifestyle."

This has zero to do with anything which may or may not justify her
lifestyle. It is unlikely that her lifestyle was 'freely' chosen. But what
is likely is that this will play out to a horrible conclusion for which all
witnesses to it will bear a terrible responsibility.

***

>I see a really sick girl cut off from the
>world, and a man who is living a fantasy where he is Master of all he
>surveys.
>
>This is really getting to me..

This girl is in extreme danger.

Again, this is patently illegal criminal activity in the United States, and
if you care about this person *at all*, you will initiate every and all
means to cause an intervention by the authorities. If you wish, you may
supply exact information about the locale she is located at, and any other
solid info to me, and I will proceed accordingly.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:12:30 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: help Required/Hoon
In-Reply-To:  <v04011700b1b6ae6f47e9@[207.54.181.84]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dear Hoon,

So you think that this is fodder for something as trivial as internet
banter. How patronising. I forgot can't speak accademics, I can only banter
in a trivial and bubble headed fashion, cos it gives me a kick to watch the
misfortune of others and have it discussed in public forum. Forgive me my
lack of education as I forgive you for the fact that you haven't
comprehended the basic premis that you cannot force somebody to leave a
situation in which they are voluntarily immersed unless they are a minor.
If it were the case, every parent whose child decided to go join the
Moonies, Loonies or name your cult, could drag them kicking and screaming
from its evil clutches. Every prostitute would be dragged from the street
and incarcerated for life for her own moral protection, every bdsm club
would be shut down, every porn star hauled before the grand Jury.

So what would the police say, they would say is this girl being forced to
do these things against her will. Answer No. Is she mentally unstable..No.
Is she cognisent of what she is doing..Yes. Fine..whats the problem then?

And what of the Master.. Has he imprisoned somebody against her will, no,
has he forced somebody to have sex against her will..no, has he restrained
somebody against their will, no.
He is guilty of crimes that aren't punishable in court or by any law.

As to Alexander, he has tried to help her by showing her that people care,
he too is aware that he cannot do more than that, the suggestion that he is
standing by doing nothing is abhorant, he is doing the best he can. He is
22, this is about as far beyond him now as is possible. Neither of us know
her real address, although it could be traced by her ISp. Its information
she is not allowed to divulge and what if we did, she doesn't think she
needs help. Ultimatly and by law what happens behind closed doors between
two consenting adults is not a matter for either police, state or Religion,
unless your charging for it in which case it becomes suddenly and morally
wrong.

What we both need, is a way, a tactic to get her to see that she needs help
of some sort, not condemnation of the way she lives, because do that and
she is lost, she'll do a huge about turn and dissapear into the cyber
ether. At least this way we have a means to communicate with her.
I'm asking for help, and if you percieve this to be lurid and sick and
beyond the norm, then thats your problem, not mine but In essence this
problem is what this list is about. Therapy in cyberspace, but its not
something I am up to.
It needs addressing in the medium its centred in, because its the only way
you will get through to her. I need somebody to help me, to meet this girl
and talk to her and then say, ok send in the police. I'm not a shrink, a
councellor a therapist. I don't dare say anything to her, in case its the
wrong thing, I know cyberspace. I know how peoples minds work in
cyberspace, but this is not a cyberspace problem its grounded in reality,
it became known on here. Here is where it will in my opinion have to be
worked on initially.

I'm not qualified to call in the police, to perhaps do more harm than good.
I was hoping one of you might be.


Alternatively we can all go back to discussing the glass bead game.

Love

Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:46:14 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      3Re: help Required

Dolores, Do you have any hard facts?

The police won't be interested in much else.

Did money change hands during these 'slave' orgies?

Do I understand correctly that you met face to face with this girl?  In Texas?
  Where?  And that her Master gave permission for this meeting?

           Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:41:47 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required/Hoon
Comments: cc: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980624141230.007b4370@easynet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dolores,

It matters not a whit in the U.S. if you are minor age, major age,
willingly or unwillingly put in direct jeopardy by another person. I'm not
asking you to like that fact of law here, but what you described is a very
serious felony crime, and I'm willing to spend a great deal of effort and
time to tap into my resources to help this girl.

Shall we work together to help this girl before more grievous harm comes to
her?

***

But, why not allow me to help you confirm a crime has been committed? It
will take but a few days for the appropriate authorities here and through
the agency of Interpol in the United Kingdom, to use the information you
supply to them, to confirm for you that a crime is being committed and
intervention is required.

I am qualified to initiate a call to the police. But, what I will do is
proceed first here in Cleveland with the Cleveland Heights Police, and my
father, who has fifty+ years of contacts in the nationwide legal and law
enforcement community, and through them, the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.

In other words, as luck has it, you asked this list for help, and I happen
to be able to tap directly into heavy duty legal and law enforcement
resources which I now put at your disposal. I am positive my father will
act surely and quickly to  assist you in these matters, Dolores. His law
enforcement contacts include high level resources at the Federal level, and
he has the ability to make notifications at those levels.

***

Would you supply any and all information to me so that I may first pursue
this vigorously here in the United States? Please give me all pertinent
info back channel and I'll see what I can do, which is likely to be a great
deal, on this girl's behalf.

***

To the list, Walter,

I would like permission to use all posts that are pertinent to this grave
matter in pursuit of immediate action.

I will await confirmation from Walter that all pertinent postings which
have a bearing on this report of Dolores' may be copied and given to the
appropriate legal and law enforcement authorities in the hopes of causing a
necessary legal intervention on this girl's behalf.

thank you in advance,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:11:03 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: help Required/Hoon
In-Reply-To:  <v04011700b1b6be049c38@[207.54.160.163]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Hoon,

I think first of all, I am going to send you my phone number, because
theres stuff I don't want to put on the list, because its not too nice.

I am seeing this girl on the irc later, and I think I am going to have to
start logging our conversations. Althogh I'm in a moral dilema as to
breaches of trust, I would much rather invade her privacy to an extent that
somebody qualified to make a Diagnosis? on her mental and physical state
can be privy to what is said than not. Although I have found some of the
material in our conversations very disturbing, and I am having real trouble
dealing with it, I also suspect from a few things Alex has told me that her
email etc is read, and my acquaintance with her is very short, so she
probably won't say as much to me as she does to him. However if it helps,
then I have no qualms about doing it. I just ask that before you do
anything with it you bear in mind that she does need help and In my
experience with British law,and what happens to *victims* unless she is
helped somewhat before, theres a danger she'll be taken from the situation
and left in another where she is homeless and without any of the care she
needs. This girl is utterly dependant on this man for everything.

In my opinion it is Alexander you need to speak to, he has had 8 months
experience with this, he knows more of the in's and outs, he is also more
qualified to comment on what is happening to her. I don't however have his
email address etc, but as I am seeing him tonigh too I will find out
everything I can and start logging it all.

Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:35:53 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required/Hoon
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980624161103.007af380@easynet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dolores,

Here is my phone number: 216 371-1402, after 10pm, eastern standard time.
Feel free to share it with anyone who you think should call me with further
information.

What will the law enforcement authorities, no doubt, require:

your email address
your phone number

Alexander's email address
Alexander's phone number

the name of the IRC channel,
the girl's IRC name

If you can supply,

the girl's email address

***

Simple. Log what you will. But, please supply me with this information
asap, or supply it to someone else who will proceed in the best interests
of this girl.

She's in great danger, probably, and so this concern: "theres a danger
she'll be taken from the situation and left in another where she is
homeless and without any of the care she needs." at least in the US, is not
likely to eventuate at all.

Dolores, the girl isn't getting any care now.

***

at your service,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:45:47 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required/Hoon
MIME-Version: 1.0
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HooN, Dolores ....

I just woke up to find all of this enslavement story being discussed.
She does have to be helped.  Like you said HooN, to not do something is
to become implicitly responsible for whatever sad outcome may happen.  I
am furious that this can go on.

she is in danger for her life tied up, an immediated danger in case of
fire
she is in danger for her life tied up, the *master* is sick

No police agency would think otherwise.  Risk giving the information
that HooN is asking for, Dolores.  This isn't a game.  Confidentiality?
Bullshit!  What about morality?  What is the worst happened to her
because WE stayed silent?  Then we would be just as guilty.

That is part of the revolt happening in the world of psychotherapy.  Do
we sit by and absolve ourselves of moral responsibility?  When it comes
to the weak, the helpless, my answer is no.  There is no absolution.

I think you feel the same way.  You came here with this issue.  Please,
please.  Give HooN all this information.  It can work out.  Please.

HooN, thank you.  I wish that I could give assistance.  This whole thing
is very, very upsetting.

willing to risk in order to help

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:21:18 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: help -Julienne/Nancy
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980624124330.007b2d70@easynet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:43 PM 6/24/98 +0100, Dolores wrote:
>>Dear Julienne
>>
>>It is illegal to enslave anyone. Someone has to get in touch with
>>the police a soon as possible before she is killed.
>>
>>Julienne
>>
>I don't think that is the danger here, apart from administering punishment
>its more of a mental/physical domination thing. I don't think she's in
>danger of being murdered if that is what you meant, accidentally killed is
>another matter. Like I said about the fire, and I know she has no access to
>a telephone. She is also locked in until he gets there.
>Remember it is all voluntary.
>I imagine if the police arrived she would be removed from them and
>immediatly on release go straight back to him, such seems the power he has
>over her and after a year I think the transformation into exactly what he
>wants is almost complete.

>I've just thought of another thing she said to me..she said She sometimes
>thought if Alex didn't speak to her she would have forgotten her real name
>by now. AARRRRGH!!!!!!!!!!

>I have a horrible feeling thats probably what she wants.

Dolores,
Think about it. Do you really think that man is going to take a chance
on letting her back out into the world, knowing that at some point she
may wake up and report him to the police. This is not "voluntary" - she
has developed hostage mentality. Please don't play God here.
How are you going to handle it if he does kill her? And you may never
know...

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:01:26 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: help Required/Hoon/dolores

I absolutely agree, Robert.

            Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:33:47 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980624045003.007ad900@easynet.co.uk>
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On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 04:50:03 +0100, you, Dolores
<azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>, wrote:

>Dear All,
>
>I have met a girl on irc, through a friend. The friend is concerned because
>the girl is 23, and has spent the last year as a slave to some guy in
>Texas.

Dolores, this sounds very unhealthy, of course.  But are you sure this
is really real?  Why would someone be under someone's total control
like that but the guy who's controlling her let her be on IRC?

There are some people out there who love to play games like this.  I'd
feel bad if you were sucked into something that's just someone's game,
that there's just some lonely person who can't get attention any other
way, repeating stories he or she has read as if they happened to him
or her.

That being said, if it's real, and if she is of legal age, you
obviously can't do anything legally.  It's very frustrating to deal
with someone who won't help herself.  Most of what you can do will
probably consist of being a good example, maybe telling her about
things you are doing that she can't because she's not "allowed."

But...to what degree is her conversation monitored by her slavekeeper?

Might she make little rebellions, and then blame you for them, and get
punished for them, as she may want to be punished?  If so, this is a
setup for you, unintended but a setup, for you to feel guilt about her
being punished for discussing things with you.  I am afraid she will
"sneak" her town name to you and the next time tell you she's been
beaten very badly because her slavekeeper found out.  I don't want you
feeling that that would be your fault.

The clear pattern here is absolving herself of all responsibility.
She's given up any responsibility for her own freedom but she still
kind of wants it.  She puts that all on you and your friend.  It
doesn't belong there.  You are responsible to help her if you can, but
not to do it for her.

And if she will not make any effort, then you cannot help her.  I'm
not telling you not to speak with her any more, but be aware of
whether what you're doing is having any effect.

If you want help finding out who she is I will try, I can do that
technical kind of thing.  How to help those who don't want help --
that's not easy.  Do what you can but don't blame yourself if you
can't make any headway.

Hoon, I think you could apologize to Dolores.  I don't think she was
putting herself out to be the object of pity, she was asking what to
do.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:01:09 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: help Required..

JoAnne, I'd been rather wishing you'd show up in this matter of Dolores' 'friend'.
  You have....and showed a side of yourself I didn't expect.
   Are you trying to protect Dolores from Hoon?
                    Ancy...(yah, that too)   Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 23:18:58 +0300
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dolores,

What  if  the  story of  the girl is  a sexual  fantasy on the screen,  one
of  those  many  equivalent stories on net?  Imagine that a crowd of cops
will break into the girl=92s  house, where  she is living  in her
fantasy-world. But  if  the story is true, I think  in the   first place  it
is not  a police court case. Of course the girl needs help, but not that
kind of help. The one  thing you  can do: be contact with her and try  to
get her to call a professional  helper. But don=92t be as silly as I when
tried to help  my  neighbour.  Once I  asked her, for what she needs  those
abusive  boy-friends. - Are you  not  afraid, that some of  them will kill
you one day?   Ever since she  didn=92t  pay call on me,  didn=92t  even=
 greet
me when we accidentally met. Also  other  neighbours tried  to help her, and
call  police when  her fianc=E9 once again  battered her violently.  The
consequence: she began to hate her helpful neighbours,  not her  fianc=E9. I
think that  her choice of the abusive  partners was not a chance. It was her
*way* ,  to which she hold persistently.  How can the outsiders - me  and
the other neighbours  -know what is  the  right way  for her to live  her
life - or  in other words -  carry out her  fate. =20

Best wishes
Anita            =20


At 04:50 1998-06-24 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear All,
>
>I have met a girl on irc, through a friend. The friend is concerned because
>the girl is 23, and has spent the last year as a slave to some guy in
>Texas.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:34:47 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998062415011028@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:01:09 -0400, you, Nancy Smith
<mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:

>JoAnne, I'd been rather wishing you'd show up in this matter of Dolores' 'friend'.
>  You have....and showed a side of yourself I didn't expect.
>   Are you trying to protect Dolores from Hoon?

His tone seemed hostile.  So, yes, I am.

>                    Ancy...(yah, that too)   Nancy

We're all marching around that salt...or getting the nerve to march
onto it.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:23:33 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: help Required..

JoAnne,

  I 'heard' Hoon's tone to Dolores as outrage that such a thing could happen
to the girl....and frustration that nothing was being done pronto, if not sooner.

  Dolores 'heard' it as criticism and was thrown on the defensive.

  You heard it as 'hostile'.

   Whose 'ears' can we listen with, if not our own.  Thank the force we're
listening.

   I loved your recent 'banking gentle' and missed your 'dry wit' last Thursday...at least when I wasn't enjoying my own 'wallow' too much to miss anything.

   Defend away, though they both seem sturdy souls able to defend themselves,
with perhaps more inner profit.

                Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:18:22 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <35a44037.506204265@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear All,

As far as I am concerned only two people have expressed somewhere close to
rational sentiments on this matter. Anita and JoJo. I spent the afternoon
on a submission channel discussing this,trying to understand it from people
who know what they are saying, and it seems that everybody there is in
accord with both the two people I mentioned and much in agreement with what
I thought was the best soloution, which is not to charge in gung ho with
all guns blazing, rescuing somebody that doesn't want to be rescued.
This is an adult female, willingly consenting, the police can't do a thing,
because as was pointed out to me, she doesn't want them to do anything, and
because she'd deny everything.
I'm sticking in the email that follows the conversation I had on one of the
channels. It is long, so I am giving you due warning, its also I think,
made my mind up for me. It is the reason I have decided that for the time
being, I am not prepared to do anything, which involves intervening with
police.
Its a long conversation, but I think the people in it, speak sense. What
they say is in general accord too with what JoJo and Anita said, which I
also thought made a great deal of sense, though I'd expect nothing less
from either of them.
Hoon your offering me the hand of kindness having attacked me first was a
ploy I could have seen through at age 5. I feel patronised you'd think I'd
fall for it blindly. I responded accordingly, because I thought ok, I'll
play along with that, obviously Hoon thinks that backing off and being
reasonable to get the information he needs is going to work. I'm
sufficiantly pissed off to point out it was about as subtle a tactic as
cleving my skull aside with a claw hammer and hoping I wouldn't notice.
I haven't worked out if you underestimate me, or I overestimate you, or
maybe we got both of each other badly wrong.

Your offer of help is appreciated, and I think if it comes to it, and she
needs it, I will say, please hoon, help me your way, because I now believe
she is in serious danger.
I do not believe she is in serious danger, and I am NOT rushing in feet
first, head last, until I am absoloutly sure of the facts.

I have learnt today that theres a norm and theres another norm to some
people, that perhaps we can't understand unless we are standing there,in
their shoes. That what is abhorant to me, is as natural to some as every
breath. If I feel guilt now its not because in what will be your opinion, I
did nothing, it will be because I too jumped in, by making a judgement on
somebody elses life. For saying this is not right, because I don't agree
with it, because I don't understand it. I do not like it, I do not
understand it, and I don't have to be a part of it. I do have to admit it
exists and that mine is not to judge.
To a lot of you this will be cowardice, a deriliction of moral duty, but I
don't think it is, I think its acceptance of the fact that this is more
widespread than anybody wants to admit, and that I acted in Ignorance by
thinking making an automatic judgement that somebody who was not asking for
help, needed it.

Do you honestly any of you think, that if for a moment I thought this girl
was in any real danger, that I wouldn't act immediatly? You think I'd sit
there and watch another woman become another statistic?

I am going to do as was generally suggested in the text of #submision. To
get the facts straight first 100% before acting.

Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:20:26 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: #Submission Text.
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998062418233428@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<april> There are sooooo many extremes in this
  lifestyle...I know a girl who LIKES to be bound
  naked and placed in a cage beneath the
  stairway while her Master is gone at work.
<april> the windows are nailed shut then?
<Ysa> I understand to a point sub/dom mentality guys,
  I just think that in this case it may be more extrememe
  than most, and she's patently obviously not
  happy and scared to go out into the real world,
  cos at least in some way she's loved and looked
  after in her world.
<april> no access to phone...yet she has a
  modem line and a computer?
<Ysa> the Windows are nailed, the doors locked
  when he goes out.
<Ysa> Yep but thats withdrawn when she is to be
  punished.
<april> glass breaks
<Cordwainer> And access to the internet... email,
  web, where it would be ever so easy to get in
  touch with people...
<april> shit...what can she possibly do wrong?
<Ysa> Not if half of you doen't want it to be
  broken.
<april> Then she must tip the scales herself Sir...
<april> she is an adult
<april> not even the police would interfere
<Ysa> Your assuming all subs want to be subbed,
  that all subs are confident enough to say enough
  is enough.. I don't think she can do that anymore.
<Cordwainer> How long have you known this
  woman, Ysa?
<april> Do you know her that well Sir?
<Ysa> A few weeks Cord, but the person who told
  me was worried about her and wanted
  me to talk to her has known her 8 months. He is
  the one that is now very worried about her actual
  safety.
*** houseboyslut (jpaluso@205.163.212.183) has
joined #submission
* evadare{SRS} smiles softly to slut and pats the
  spot beside her
<MsCammy> good to hear, darlin'
<Cordwainer> So why, if I may ask, doesn't this
  other person take care of it, instead of asking
  you to, Ysa?
<Ysa> Because truthfully neither of us know what
  to do, we are completly out of our depth.
*** GentleDom (~Sir@165.110.65.89) has left
#submission
* gentlejack goes over to sit at the lovely feet of
  MsCammy
* denver wonders if MsCammy likes fem's to sit on
  her lap...
<april> All you can do is encourage her and
  support her
<Ysa> april how?
<april> My guess is...that if this is in fact
  true...that she will not leave unless there are
  arms waiting for her on the other side of the
  glass when she breaks the window
<Ysa> I think thats a damn good guess April.
<jilliann> doesn't she have any family? (i came in
  late, sorry if that was brought up)
<Ysa> No, apparently this guy is all she has got.
  Thats why he represents such total security to
  her I think. Thats why I think she's too scared to
  leave now.
<Ysa> Thing is she's getting too scared to stay.
<gentlejack> my sister, looks lovely there, Ma'am
<april> IF it is true...she won't leave on her
  own...she has nothing to go to...
<Ysa> Right April. But this guy has no respect for
  her, but is all she has.
<april> So the question is...just how involved do
  you want...and can you afford to be?
* gentlejack rises and uncovers sis denver's lovely
  breasts for MsCammy's inspection
<Ysa> April, I don't its too much responsibility, I
  don't know how to help her, I would if I could, but
  I'm in England, she's in the states, and I don't
  understand or know what I can do.
* MsCammy looks down at denver's lovely breasts
  and smiles
<MsCammy> quite lovely, My dear denver
<gentlejack> notice how nice the nipples protrude
  Ma'am
<april> Sir...no doubt it's an awful story....but if
  you don't live near her...and even if you
  did...could you take her in...the most you can
  afford to do is try to get her address and call the
  police in her area on a suspected abuse case.
  Even then, she will prolly deny it all, cuz she still
  has nothing in the end
<Ysa> tell april can you explain to me a little how
  sub mentality works, I see it as a sub culture you
  have to be in to understand. What to me at first
  might appear abhorant is maybe completly
  normal, but I've never seen anything quite so
  extreme but I don't admit to being an expert on subs
  and doms.
<Ysa> Yep the police will say, is she restrained
  against her will..no..
*** mariah^^ (mhilton@den-co55-08.ix.netcom.co
m) has joined #submission
<H0liday> hello mariah
<MsCammy> oh, denver....are you there?
*** Leash^ (~karden@yu1.yu.edu) has joined
#submission
<april> Sir...while I will admit it is extreme...it is
  not completely uncommon. It *can* get to the
  point, like how a captive learns to love her captor
  (ie The Patty hearst case)...where you HAVE to
  have *Smomething* ... anything...you have to
  believe that someone really does love you and
  wants to take care of you
<april> even if it seems sick and twisted....more
  than anything...we all desparately need to be
  loved...and taken care of.
<april> And I think Sir...if someone tells you
  things...and you *believe* them...then you buy
  into it...and even though it maybe painful...you
  still want to please...so badly sometimes...that
  you lose yourself in the process
<jilliann> i agree with april.  my suggestion would
  be to keep talking to her, give her confidence in
  herself. She has to decide for herself to get out.
<april> *exactly* jillian
*** Wife_is_slave (~mstrcr@Rosh-Haain-205-120.
access.net.il) has joined #Submission
<Cordwainer> And if you are unfamiliar with this
  lifestyle, Ysa, it's not unreasonable to suggest
  that perhaps you don't realize that for many
  people in it, things are commonplace that seem
  very extreme to those outside... but are done
  with full consent of both parties.  they *like* it
  that way.
*** peter38^^ (hi@195.12.209.63) has joined
#submission
<april> This case IS extreme....please don't doubt
  that...
<Cordwainer> And that's the bottom line... if they
  like it, then that's what they'll do... if they don't,
  they won't, ultimately.
<Cordwainer> Yes, it is extreme, to be sure.
<Cordwainer> If it is for real.
<Ysa> Cordwainer no, I disagree with the last
  statetement, that ultimatly if they don't they won't.
<april> But...as with my Owner...I only go as far
  as he allows...in the sense that *I* gave him that
  power over me.
*** THEBATMAN (Knight@ip078016.dialup.wvnet.
edu) has left #submission
*** Zuzzz (~zuzzz@dlp92.middle.eri.net) has
joined #submission
<april> If he ever abused that power...he would no
  longer have it.
*** houseboyslut has quit IRC (Quit: Client exiting )
<Zuzzz> hi folks !!!
<Ysa> Right, she does not give him that power,
  he takes it. There is no respect there for her. As
  I understand it, respect to an extent is essential.
  This is one guy living out some very sick
  fantasys while his wife is back home.
* Cordwainer nodding
*** CannoN^ (puccim@CCT45.marinemwr.or.jp)
has left #Submission
*** Flirt475 (philkirk@bmi-m013.dave-world.net)
has joined #Submission
<Ysa> If it was just sub/dom even to extremes, I
  wouldn't worry. I think its more than that.
<april> she walked into that house one day...
<april> unless she was dragged in...or tricked into
  it....never mind that she has stayed a year and
  admittedly LOVES the man...she gave him that
  power
Ysa> What if the choice to *give* him that power
  is no longer hers?
<evadare{SRS}> greetings MrJacque
<evadare{SRS}> welcome Dragon^stail
<Dragon^stail> thank you evadare
*** ^Reveur (dhare@ppp-206-170-124-111.sndg0
2.pacbell.net) has joined #submission
*** Flirt475 (philkirk@bmi-m013.dave-world.net)
has joined #Submission
*** Flirt475 (philkirk@bmi-m013.dave-world.net)
has left #Submission
<Zuzzz> the choice is ALWAYS hers unless she
  has refused to use her right of choice
<april> That's where the line is crossed then...but
  Sir...glass does break...she still has choice
<Zuzzz> beyond that point you face problems
<jilliann> of course she does, she has started by
  talking to You and the other person about him in
  irc
<hawthorn> g'afternoon all
<jilliann> in= on
*** ^Reveur (dhare@ppp-206-170-124-111.sndg0
2.pacbell.net) has left #submission
<april> and as we have discussed...she does
  choose to stay...as long as there is nothing
  better to go to
<Zuzzz> if she chooses to stay in a situtation You
  disagree with it is still her choice. . even if
  You/we dont like her choice
<Ysa> So I should find out, if really if she did ever
  want to leave the house, him, she could?
*** Gowan has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving )
*** denver has quit IRC (Quit: Life is good. So live
life. Don't wait for something else to come along. )
<april> Right...it sounds horrific to be sure....but
  she still chooses to remain
<evadare{SRS}> yes
<Zuzzz> yes Ysa. .
<Zuzzz> exactly  if SHE chooses to remain the
  choice has been made by her.
<april> Yes you should...and then offer
  suggestions...like break the glass...go to the
  nearest phone and call a woman's shelter
*** naya (enigma@SNDGB104-37.splitrock.net)
has joined #submission
<Ysa> Do you think though that she is still
  capable of an informed choice, going back to
  the hostage mentality thing.
<april> there are wonderful councelors there...will
  to help
* Zuzzz nods in agreement with april
<Zuzzz> what is sad is if she does leave her next
  relationship (statisticlly) will also be abusive
*** wrmdesire (passion@ip48.cincinnati8.oh.pub-i
p.psi.net) has joined #submission
<gand> h all, hi Wife_is...
<Ysa> And I'm not qualified to say, this girl really
  really needs help.
<april> Only if she leaves that house on her
  own...a shelter would provide her any services
  she needs
*** LovingOne has quit IRC (Operation timed out )
<Ysa> I think she is confusing abuse with love.
* hawthorn waves to LadyShameless ma'am
<LadyShameless> greetings y'all
<LadyShameless> hiya hawthorn
<TonyG> Hello LadyShameless
<Zuzzz> so for the time being we have to assume
  she IS capable of making her own choices.
  even if We/we dont agree
<Ysa> Its not a desire to give, but a desire to be
  abused.
<LadyShameless> hi TonyG
<gand> hello LadyShameless...
<april> That is VERY common Ysa Sir...
*** gentlejack (toserve@1Cust209.tnt1.dekalb.il.da.
uu.net) has joined #submission
<Zuzzz> you may be right Ysa. . . but We/we are
  on the ouitside lookin in...
<Ysa> Yes I agree with that Zuzzz, theres nothing
  in the conversations I have had with her to
  suggest she isn't completly cognicent of what
  she is doing, otherwise I might have called the
  police or something.
<Zuzzz> it is becasue the abuse traslate to her as
  love.    it is unlikely she has even been treated
  very well
<Zuzzz> You would be wise to do so if you felt
  she was out of it
<evadare{SRS}> but it's her choice
<april> Negative attention is better than none at all
  to many...sad to say
* Zuzzz agrees again with april
<jilliann> and if she has access to the computer
  she has access to get out of htat situation...if
  she so chooses
<Zuzzz> some ppl will accept ANY form of
  attention.
<Zuzzz> yourt right jilliann
<april> I agree jillian...she has told you Ysa Sir
  that she is not happy...half the time anyway...
<Ysa> But isn't that self destructive in the end, it
  can't be doing her any good.
<april> she is making choices
<Zuzzz> the saddest part of this story is more
  than likely this person will not leave.
<april> Sure it is...
<jilliann> maybe Your concern is adding to the
  drama
<april> but so is drinking and smoking and unsafe
  sex...
<Zuzzz> sure it is. .
<april> and many choose to do those things as
  well
* gentlejack bows to LadyS from beneath the feet
  of MsCammy
<Zuzzz> LOL   april   get out of my head   LOL
  (im kidding)
<april> he goes as far as SHE allows
<Zuzzz> driving a car can be self destructive but
  ppl do it
<Zuzzz> if He ever did something too far out of it
  she will run.
<RescueD> one has to remember also.....to
  some, the net is a playground, not everything
  has to be the truth....i myself have fell and been
  hurt by believeing lies
<Zuzzz> so i think first thing i would dso is maybe varify her claims. .
<RescueD> One has to be cautious of it....it is nice to think and believe
all tell the truth...but not all do
<Ysa> Yep Zuzz..
<Zuzzz> at least see if she is indeed telling the truth  she may be playing
games with those caring ppl here.
<RescueD> most things like that are impossible to verify
<Zuzzz> i dont know what she claims but ill bet it a loo loo
<Ysa> Hard to work out though Zuzzzz
<Zuzzz> if the abuse is that bad there will be marks
<evadare{SRS}> Zuzzz, Ysa lives in another country, He can't verify the story
*** BoOniE (kiln@pm290-17.dialip.mich.net) has left #Submission
<Zuzzz> what kind of saddens me is the idea i could come here and hear this
woman is now a stat
<Ysa> I can't see them though Zuzzz, I can only believe what she is telling
us.
<JefPineCA> for those of us who joined late Zuzzz what are you discussing?
<Ysa> In what way a stat Zuzz?
<april> where does she live Ysa Sir?
<Zuzzz> LOL i assume we are talking about a woamn in a very abusive
relationship
<Zuzzz> dead
<Ysa> Ysa Mistress april :)
<Spokane_spanker> oh nice to meet you...
<Zuzzz> Ysa  dead
<JefPineCA> jeez if you don't know, and you've been discussing, who does?
<Zuzzz> i cam in late and kind of jumped in
* april begs pardon
<Ysa> But then if I think that might happen Zuzz, then surely I have a
moral duty (bleuh) to intervene, I can't stand by, even though she is
acting of her own free will?
* mariah^^ sighs at hearing of an unhappy lady in a bad relationship
<april> Yes Ma'am...you have to allow her that privilege...you have no choice.
<Zuzzz> Yes true  but if what she told you were lies youre going to look
very silly
<jilliann> Ysa does this sub ever come into this channel?
<Ysa> Right
<Ysa> Jilliann Nope
<MrRich{ps}> afternoon all
*** slavegirI (~passion@168-32-144.ipt.aol.com) has joined #submission
<gentlejack> i'm bi curious Ma'am .. have played soom that way in cyber
<Zuzzz> the only thing you can do now is check the stories for consistancy
<april> Ysa Ma'am...do you know where she lives?
<Ysa> No april, no firm idea.
<april> Perhaps that is a place to start
*** Master4fslave (MasterMike@205-19-121.ipt.aol.com) has joined #submission
<Ysa> Zuzz I know some people are capable of playing games on here, really
complex nasty ones, because we are human and mostly fukd up in some way or
another, but if its not, then its more serious, and your statistic might
hold true.
<april> Does she know where you live Ma'am?
<Zuzzz> Ysa,   watch the details of what she tells you. . see if they are
consistant.   work it from there....
<Ysa> She knows I live in Egland.
<subguy29> Any Dommes available ?
* subguy29 looking for a Domme
<* Cordwainer informs subguy29 that this is not a pickup channel. Please
relax and get to know us. Thank you.
<Zuzzz> i agree with you Ysa. . but what can you do at this point but hope
she is ok?
<april> Then she knows perhaps that you could never verify her story
<april> I believe in erring on the side of caution too though....find out
where she lives....
<Zuzzz> yeah leaving out location and other details might tend to make me
think the story might be fabricated
<Ysa> Zuzz your the only ones who have made sense, when I've spoken to
people outside this, who don't understand it completly, as I don't, they
all want me to call frigging Interpol and storm in with the Jedi Knights. I
don't want to do that. I believe in what april just said.
<april> It's easy enough to check out after you know that
<Zuzzz> good idea april   LOL
<Ysa> She lives in California as much as I know.
<Zuzzz> put her IP on you notify list  watch ehr patterns here.  that may
tell you things
<april> There are many many lifestylers from Ca here
<Zuzzz> LOG her !!!!
<april> it's very easy to check out
<Zuzzz> oh God yes  CA is roilling with various lifestyles and things.
out htere anything is possible
* Zuzzz loves LA
* Cordwainer is from LA... great place to be *from*... as in, no longer there.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:30:20 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: help Required..

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 00:18:22 +0100, Dolores  wrote:

>I am going to do as was generally suggested in the text of #submision. To
>get the facts straight first 100% before acting.
>

Dolores,   The  sensible notion above seems to be the one thing all of us here and at irc can agree on.

  Go for it and more power to you.

           Nancy
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:24:21 -0500
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Subject:      Re: help Required..
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Dolores, JoAnne, all,

Was I feeling hostile this morning in my rush of response to the appalling
report of Dolores. Yes. You got my tone right. Did I intend to attack
Dolores? Not consciously, but since you felt attacked, I have to cop to
that as your experience of my unconscious intention; seems obviously so in
reviewing how I felt and what I wrote.

I'm sorry Dolores for your having felt attacked by my response this morning.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:35:43 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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Anita,

These may or may not end up being philosophical matters, especially since
I'm hoping very much that my sense of learning through my own training and
religious background, is proven to be true, but, when you wonder:

"How can the outsiders - me  and the other neighbours  -know what is  the
right way  for her to live  her life - or  in other words -  carry out her
fate."

my view is sympathetic except I see either the mistake or grace of our
acting as if we know, is *no less* an expression of fate, ours and hers.

If we only know fate will be carried out through a way live is lived by
another, then I wonder how we know what judgement or actions of ours, or
their negation, are allowable? If we cannot know, than this lack of knowing
applies both to our prospective errant inaction as well as our prospective
errant action vis a vis what we do with respect to another.

***

From my viewpoint, (which itself may or may not be idiosyncratic,) I would
say that there is no "non-fate" possible outside of the sure and certain
fate already promised(!), and that certainly the choices of others, and,
or, their judgements and acts may have the force to alter the unfolding of
fate which otherwise would have been carried out.

An example: [X] is about to happen to Anita and I, either prudently,
stupidly, consciously, blindly, (etc.) choose to disrupt the fate [X] would
have aided if not caused.

What has happened is that [X] is not necessarily in force and now Anita's
fate is [Y+ hoon's choice]. Yes, [X] may now come back with a vengeance if
it is ordained that Anita's fate must be [X], but, and this is my point,
this does not make [Y+ hoon's choice] less fate-full than [X].

***

Our agency is intermingled as are our fates. We cannot know what is
ordained for a person to carry out, and we may be in serious error to think
or feel that we know what is right for another person, but it is because we
are humans, whom, nonetheless, can reflect and choose to act on behalf of
our perceptions, that our fates are necessarily comingled, intermingled,
often for worse, but God Willing, for better too.

Our judgements are, sadly, imperfect; then I say: "God makes Allowances."
Sometimes it is ordained that one should act on another's behalf. We have
no way of knowing differently, for how are we to know?

Our situation today is to hope the girl's fate is not to continue to be, or
develop to be dire. These best wishes may be in error but they are never
inhuman or selfish. If harmlessness is our ideal, most natural expression,
it then would not be surprising to know, *ideally* it is never harm we may
wish for others to suffer.

We might not agree what to do about it, but our *intention* is very human
if we wish for another, that they not be in a dire situation. Often our
intention is the opposite of this too.

***

The line does get crossed and it is only because I am human that if fate
puts a knife to your throat Anita, that I would arrogantly wish to do
something before it drew your

blood.

***

forgive me if I am in error,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:55:02 -0500
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Subject:      Re: help Required..
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Dolores,

I am absolutely dependent on you to verify this as being true or not. You
don't have to bring me in the loop, and certainly I've given you reasons to
your own way of thinking that it would be inadvisable to bring me in to the
loop. As I stated this morning, if (1) and (2) are likely true I will ask
for the information which will allow me to provide help as *I* see fit and
is appropriate.

I understand you to say now, that, short of absolute confirmation of the
girl being in danger, you will not act "as if* it may be so. Fair enough.

(However, in that case, since you also mention you feel your own judgement
about her lifestyle should be held in abeyance, I'm really not too sure why
it is you asked for help.)

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:55:09 -0500
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Dolores, all,

It's late, I come home, I guess expecting some sort of diverse "at odds"
responses, as we make of the original report 'fodder' for Psyber-L. So be
it. I have not been disappointed. Nice thread...resonating almost perfectly
with the anniversery of the gender wars. Beautiful...

Symmetry.

***

As far as the situation, here's what I'm stuck with, 14+ hours later.
Dolores reported the following:

(1) the girl is 23, and has spent the last year as a slave to some guy in
Texas. This basically involves her confined to the house 24 hours a day, or
if she is very lucky she gets a trip to a slave party where she's publicly
flogged and had by all.

(2) She is tied up most of the day, when I asked her what would happen if there
was a fire, she replied she was sure there would be some provision for
that. I asked her if there was a fire that very second, if she knew what
the provision would be, and she said no, she'd probably burn.

Basically, this is either true or not. *Perhaps we'll never know.*

***

On the basis of it being true, some have questioned whether this kind of
'transaction' between consenting adults of major age is in fact illegal in
the states. ?Jeez, I wonder how one would go about answering such a
question?

***

If it, (1) & (2) of the report is true, persons on Psyber-L have speculated
about what is the best thing any individual or persons acting-in-consort
may do to help the girl and/or Dolores (whom, after all, ended her report
with the simple universal request "Please help me...") and these ideas have
ranged from a sense that, if true, a criminal abuse has been committed and
thus the response is geared to, God Willing, promoting an immediate
intervention by the appropriate authorities, to a sense that, for example,
"if it's real, and if she is of legal age, you obviously can't do anything
legally." and thus the response is geared toward doing what "will probably
consist of being a good example, maybe telling her about things you are
doing that she can't because she's not "allowed."

Also, other suggestions about how to answer Dolores's request for help have
been made based on it being a true report.

***

Maybe it is not a true report. All bets are off then!

If it isn't true it isn't happening and my concern and compassion and
ability to give help in situations where nothin' is happening is much less
than what I may apply or offer to apply to situations which actually are
happening. Get my drift?

***

I would like to make an obvious, and logical point here in closing. Dolores
when you state this:

"I think its acceptance of the fact that this is more widespread than
anybody wants to admit,"

and *this* refers to the possibility that a young woman has freely willed
her own circumstance as you have described, short even of the sensational
situations described by (1) and (2), then it only makes sense to speak of
it *as if* the statement is true.

If the statement isn't true, obviously, there is no 'fact' to accept, so
any speculation about a practice being widespread or not will have to be
based on a new proof of fact existant in a second case.

One might wish to have a discussion  based in lurid hypothetical scenarios;
no *facts* needed in that case!

***

As for a discussion on an *as if* basis about certain practices on or off
the net of this nature, and speaking for my self, such a discussion doesn't
interest me. But, that's just me.

***

sincerely,

HooN







>Dear
>
>As far as I am concerned only two people have expressed somewhere close to
>rational sentiments on this matter. Anita and JoJo. I spent the afternoon
>on a submission channel discussing this,trying to understand it from people
>who know what they are saying, and it seems that everybody there is in
>accord with both the two people I mentioned and much in agreement with what
>I thought was the best soloution, which is not to charge in gung ho with
>all guns blazing, rescuing somebody that doesn't want to be rescued.
>This is an adult female, willingly consenting, the police can't do a thing,
>because as was pointed out to me, she doesn't want them to do anything, and
>because she'd deny everything.
>I'm sticking in the email that follows the conversation I had on one of the
>channels. It is long, so I am giving you due warning, its also I think,
>made my mind up for me. It is the reason I have decided that for the time
>being, I am not prepared to do anything, which involves intervening with
>police.
>Its a long conversation, but I think the people in it, speak sense. What
>they say is in general accord too with what JoJo and Anita said, which I
>also thought made a great deal of sense, though I'd expect nothing less
>from either of them.
>Hoon your offering me the hand of kindness having attacked me first was a
>ploy I could have seen through at age 5. I feel patronised you'd think I'd
>fall for it blindly. I responded accordingly, because I thought ok, I'll
>play along with that, obviously Hoon thinks that backing off and being
>reasonable to get the information he needs is going to work. I'm
>sufficiantly pissed off to point out it was about as subtle a tactic as
>cleving my skull aside with a claw hammer and hoping I wouldn't notice.
>I haven't worked out if you underestimate me, or I overestimate you, or
>maybe we got both of each other badly wrong.
>
>Your offer of help is appreciated, and I think if it comes to it, and she
>needs it, I will say, please hoon, help me your way, because I now believe
>she is in serious danger.
>I do not believe she is in serious danger, and I am NOT rushing in feet
>first, head last, until I am absoloutly sure of the facts.
>
>I have learnt today that theres a norm and theres another norm to some
>people, that perhaps we can't understand unless we are standing there,in
>their shoes. That what is abhorant to me, is as natural to some as every
>breath. If I feel guilt now its not because in what will be your opinion, I
>did nothing, it will be because I too jumped in, by making a judgement on
>somebody elses life. For saying this is not right, because I don't agree
>with it, because I don't understand it. I do not like it, I do not
>understand it, and I don't have to be a part of it. I do have to admit it
>exists and that mine is not to judge.
>To a lot of you this will be cowardice, a deriliction of moral duty, but I
>don't think it is, I think its acceptance of the fact that this is more
>widespread than anybody wants to admit, and that I acted in Ignorance by
>thinking making an automatic judgement that somebody who was not asking for
>help, needed it.
>
>Do you honestly any of you think, that if for a moment I thought this girl
>was in any real danger, that I wouldn't act immediatly? You think I'd sit
>there and watch another woman become another statistic?
>
>I am going to do as was generally suggested in the text of #submision. To
>get the facts straight first 100% before acting.
>
>Dolores.
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:57:37 -1200
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Subject:      Re: help Required..
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Hi Hoon

I'm with you on this one.

If there is reasonable substance to believe that a crime is being committed
against another person, especially a crime of violence, there is a
responsiblity to act, despite what the 'victim' may want in their
dysfunctional way.

I admire your willingness to act and put yourself
forward as you have offered to do.  You were immediate and clear.  Deeds,
not words.  I'd want you around if I was in trouble.

Barry
_________________________________
Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:44:57 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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Dolores, all,

> As far as I am concerned only two people have expressed somewhere close to
> rational sentiments on this matter.

Back from my day at the office!  Phew.  A *situation* has been well aired
here since i last looked.  In my opinion many good things were said ...

Personally i have felt no inclination to act at any point while reading the
posts.   Partly as because no hard information has been supplied.  Partly
because no one apart from Dolores is asking for help.  Partly because it is
all in a context that is unreliable.  Partly because i do not have the sort
of means at my disposal that Hoon does.  Partly because there is a
possibility that broken trust or interference might make it worse.  These
weigh up strongly enough for me not to feel i have been a poor citizen even
if there were a disaster, or the disaster described already is true, which
it well might be.  I also understand the impulse to prevent such suffering,
even while there is no consent on the part of the victim. It seems
appropriate that the options are left open ...

> Your offer of help is appreciated, and I think if it comes to it, and she
> needs it, I will say, please hoon, help me your way, because I now believe
> she is in serious danger.
> I do not believe she is in serious danger, and I am NOT rushing in feet
> first, head last, until I am absoloutly sure of the facts.

I have faced some difficult ethical dilemmas in the course of my work ...
and "supervision" is a useful option at the time, an opportunity to reflect
on the *situation*.  I have a sense that is the sort of help we do need
before or even after difficult calls like this, and in a way how i saw your
call for help Dolores that is what Psyber-L has offered.

I recall one time I simply acted, and called the police out to check on a
suicide threat ... &  reflected on it later!  My client politely told the
police I was over reacting!  I will never really know.  I am still glad i
did it.  In dozens of other similar situations I have let the situation be,
and no one has actually suicided to date ... touch wood.  In the end it is
a sort of gut level call and one that each of us must listen to in our own
way.

Somewhere you said Dolores ... should we just go back to discussion of the
GBG?  I am going to do just that, but not in the sense you mean, as a
trivialisation of the matters you have raised ... this discussion remains
on the agenda as far as i am concerned, for practical reasons as well as
our usual reflections on these matters!  One way to get to know each other
better!  <g>  Over the last few days i have been thinking about the GBG and
have a post ready to go.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:53:15 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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Subject:      Re: GBG: Walter's role
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Julienne,  Charles,

One of the unresolved discussions for me in Psyber-L is the one on my role
in the proposed GBG.  Charles,  I guess you are, or soon will be in the
midst of writing up the details of this and will want the exact wording of
my role.  In this post I want to discuss that further and I am also
interested in Julienne's response.  First, please hang in as I place this
post in what i think is the context.

~ ~ ~

In the following post:

  GBG: Walter's role
  Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:16:12 -0700

you wrote:

> Julienne, Walter, all:
>
> The major issue that may still need some discussion here IMO, Walter, is
> the issue of Julienne's feelings about your role -- and I don't think we're
> going to be able to resolve that very speedily  by untangling whatever
> knots have gotten snarled up in the past.  So I suspect it needs to be
> addressed by way of your clarifying your role as list owner and as a member
> of the "Resolution Group" as you termed it -- and in particular by
> clarifying what aspects of your role would be "technical" or "ceremonial",
> and what aspects would be "authoritative".

<substantial amount snipped.>

> And now I'm concerned that this post shouldn't generate another whole
> subgenre of responses...
>
> Julienne, I hope this gets your concerns right, and maybe eases some of
> them a little.
>
> Walter, I hope you'll post a "one timer" under this subject heading to
> clarify your position for Julienne -- and Julienne, I hope you'll take time
> to consider Walter's response, and then decide whether you want to proceed.

 Before I responded to that, Julienne wrote ...

  Re: GBG: Walter's role
  Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:32:21 -0400

> So, at this point in time I can't say that I feel Walter is evenhanded, and
> so it would make me uncomfortable if he were advising on content in any
> way.

Then I wrote a lengthy response on what I saw as implicit in the list owner
role, in a post on:

 Re: GBG: Walter's role
 Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:13:27 GMT

~ ~ ~

I would still appreciate a continuation of that discussion.  I also want to
add some important comments.

Charles, I have a sense of our co-efforts at running a list going well
beyond our specific role descriptions as list owner and games master.  In
addition to those roles, we have a friendship and collegial role, that
dates from our both presenting abstracts of papers to a Principia
Cybernetica conference back in 1995, and exists outside as well as inside
of Psyber-L ... through email, our connection in other cyber-forums
including your own list Magister-L and an ongoing web Conference we are
both in, meeting face to face and on the phone, and perhaps most of all in
our joint venture, the Dream event.

What I have found useful about this wide range of ongoing connections is
that we can and do collaborate on the overall design of our projects, and
also dialogue about our co-leadership, our team work.  I have in mind that
we will work like that in the Resolution Group.

My sense is that some of these important aspects of our team work have been
obscured because we both want Julienne to feel comfortable.  I certainly
have not emphasised it fully, and i have a sense that you have down played
our team work as well, Charles.  I hope that is the case, and that you do
in fact wish to continue in the tradition of the Dream Event.


Julienne, my understanding is that Charles and i are participants, and that
we differ from other participants in several ways:  We each have specific
jobs in the list, list owner and  games master.  We are also co-hosts who
dialogue in private or by phone on occasion.  We collaborate on writing the
invitation, and both our names will be on the final versions of any
"protocols" for the group, whether originally generated by Charles or
Walter, or through the group's dialogue.  The plan is that there will be a
final write up of the game, for "publication" outside the group (eg on
Psyber-L, or on the HipBone or Psybernet websites), I envisage that Charles
being the professional writer and working with the group's sense
of things, will probably be doing most of the editing, but that it will be
clear that this was a joint Psybernet HipBone venture.

I have a deep respect for the life of a group, even when the going gets
rough.  One sort of authority I don't expect myself to throw around
is the list owner power of changing such things as the posting
procedures or list membership.  It is in the nature of the medium that the
list owner has such powers and it would be misleading to deny them.  I
would respect the group dialogue before I took any action.  In this GBG
group, co-hosted with Charles, in the unlikely event of the need occurring,
I will be grateful for the opportunity to weigh up such matters with him.
The most likely event is that I will be in the role of a quiet participant,
guided by Charles as the games master, and that is what I am looking
forward to.

Julienne, I hope that your trust in me has strengthened compared to what it
was a week or more ago.  I hope that also that Charles confirms this level
of our team work and that it is easy for you to trust us as a team.

I look forward to hearing from you both.



Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:21:49 -0700
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Subject:      Re: GBG: Walter's role
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Julienne, Walter:

Julienne:

Walter's post today is in a way the "missing piece of the puzzle" for me:
in the long flurry of posts from me which preceded the recent pause, I
really had very little sense of how Walter wanted to "play" this one.  My
natural assumption initially was that we would proceed on this occasion
roughly the way we did in the Dream Event, which is to say in a collegial
manner with mutual trust: but your own repeatedly stated concerns about
Walter were important to me (and I presumed and still presume to Walter
too), and as I wrote my various posts at that time, I tried to convey that
the games have quite rigorous rules, and that I would be monitoring them,
without saying too much about Walter's role.  I wanted to leave that to
him, and invited him in the post he refers to -- the one where I asked you
both to post "one time" responses within this particular thread -- to post
his own wishes.

He has done that now, and I'm in full acord with him, very happy that he
has expressed his point of view, and willing and eager to proceed along the
lines we've now both suggested.

*

Some comments, now, on the details.  Walter writes:

> i have a sense that you have down played our team work as well,
> Charles.

and that's exactly right.  But I shlould also clarify it.  I hinted in one
of my posts that Walter might want to "relinquish" or "step back" or
something -- here we are:

> I think it's the level of authority which you'd exercise or
> relinquish which most concerns Julienne...

because I felt Walter might well be considering taking a lower profile in
this group on account of your concerns: but I didn't want to force the
issue, wanted him to be free to formulate his role in his own way.  I also
saw that he would necessarily have some roles which I didn't think would be
problematic for you, like writing the Invite with me and co-signing it.

*

My sense was that your concerns would have to do with *interventions*
Walter might make (a) directly, as list owner, ie not just having the
"technical" power to sub and unsub at his disposal but actually using it,
and (b) indirectly as *advisor* to me as the one pretty much running things
-- ie what I referred to as "keeping the balance".

I tried to "divide and describe" these different shades of role in a post thus:

> My own sense is that Walter would be involved (i) as host of the
> event, in terms of "physically" providing the server, list, etc, (ii)
> as co-host in a ceremonial sense, sharing responsibility for
> greeting people, working on introductory documentation, etc, (iii)
> as advisor, someone I could trust along with Leon to call me on
> things I might be missing as "games master", and (iv) participant
> in the non-principal discussions and games along with the rest of
> us.

My intention here was to clear away (i) (ii) and (iv) which I didn't think
would present a problem for you, so that we could concentrate our further
discussions on (iii).

My sense was that (i) was inevitable, but didn't include anything more than
the physical possession of  the server (ie it was an attempt to describe a
list-owner role similar to that which my techie-co-owner exercises on
Magister-L: she never posts to the list, has no interest in the topics we
discuss in fact -- but when a message bounces, it comes back to her and she
makes the necessary fixes).

The purely ceremonial bit, (ii), was intended by me to describe a more
active aspect of list-ownership and co-hosting, but still one that's so
formal and polite that I didn't think it would be a problem at your end
(always assuming that my phrasing of the distinctions I was trying to make
was clear enough for you to follow them) which would involve Walter putting
his name on the protocols we worked out, the Invite, etc.  To me, this was
intended to be exactly analogous to the sort of things a host at a
reception does, shaking hands, murmuring that he's glad you're here, saying
good bye at the door at the end: and if you're going to have a fight with
the host, it's not likely to be about the welcoming handshake, it's liable
to be about the discussion you get into during the course of the party.
That's why (ii) didn't seem to be a problem from my angle, I was using that
category to describe the forms and courtesies of the situation, as opposed
to anything substantial in the way of an intervention.

Wlater's role (iv) as a regular participant, too, seemed to me to be
unexceptionable.  Or to put that another way, if the host can't be invited
to the party, I don't think we have a party at his house...

So that leaves (iii), which I intended as the catch all for any ways in
which Walter might throw more weight around than other participants, either
indirectly in the form of advice or directly by intervening using his
list-owner status.

If I'd done a clean job of describing these four aspects of Walter's role,
in other words, and you'd seen them the way I intended, it was my sense
that we wouldn't need to discuss (i) (ii) or (iv) any further, and could
proceed to discuss (iii) which was where I saw the issue of trust coming
into play.

Words are tricky, though, people don't always understand them in quite the
way they're intended, and I think you yourself might have "divided"
Walter's role up into slightly different categories, Julienne -- so when
you read this post, it didn't quite "fit" for you in the way I'd intended,
and the discussion continued...

*

In my next couple of posts on the issue I tried to address your continuing
concerns, Julienne, while keeping the balance with Walter's (still largely
unknown) position open, and this is where I was "down playing" or perhaps
"down sizing" Walter's role, trying to phrase things in a way which would
emphasize my role and portray his in a "minimal" light.  And I think the
distinction and overlap between "down playing" and "down sizing" is
important here, and would like to address exactly what I was doing.

At this point I was waiting for a clear statement from Walter of what he
wanted his role to be, remember: I was working from the kind of collegial
assumptions we worked with in the previous event, but I was also trying to
second guess how Walter would be responding to your comments, and thinking
that he was probably as concerned as I was that you should feel comfortable
in the group.  So I next wrote:

::  I don't think Walter would be in an "authoritative position",
::  except in so far as he's volunteering the space we can use.  I
::  think I'd be the one working with the "game" structure, making
::  sure all posts and moves were in accord with the "charter" --
::  though I'd very much appreciate input from Leon, Walter and
::  others if they felt I was missing important clues and hints of the
::  process going astray.

which was my attempt to "down play" his role and to assume as much
responsibility for any "exercise of authority" as I could, to relieve him
of the necessity to exercise such responsability himself, to relieve you of
the fear of his exercising such authority -- and thus both to portray and
influence the form I thought our group would take.

My terms "portray" and "influence" here correspond pretty much to the
distinction I am trying to make between "down play" and "down size" -- the
point being that there was a little of both going on, that they were
happening hand in hand.

The "portray" bit is important, because I wanted you to feel comfortable,
and that's what I mean by "down playing" Walter's role.  But I was also
trying to "influence" it, as just described, and in that sense the down
playing was also a "down sizing".  I was effectively *negotiating* what
Walter's role would eventually be by portraying it in this way, and my
negotiation went in the direction of putting myself in the more
authoritative seat.  But I wanted at the same time to leave Walter free to
agree or disagree, to express his own sense of things and his own comfort
levels, and to participate in whatever way he thought was most appropriate
-- so my next paragraph read:

::  But again, beyond this point I think Walter himself needs to
::  speak, to clarify what he feels his own role should be, in the light
::  of your concerns.

And then in my next post on the topic I wrote:

::  So that leaves the nub of the question: would you be in "an
::  authoritative position in the game" still to be answered -- and I
::  think the answer here is clearly that I as GameMaster would
::  have the authority to declare moves unconstitutional in game
::  terms, while I hope Leon and yourself would be keeping an eye
::  out on the fairness / evenhandedness of the proceedings, and
::  hopefully nudging me when I needed to adjust something in your
::  view.  But then I hope everyone would be doing that, and that
::  everyone would be supporting *both* principals in the course of
::  play.

*

An aside, sorta:

I should also mention here for the sake of complete clarity that Leon's
presence in the group is not a foregone conclusion.  I have, as I said,
mentioned the idea to him in very rough terms.  Leon likes my games, and
has worked with them in conflict resolution situations: and he expressed
keen interest in hearing more about what we were up to as things developed
here.  But I haven't written him in any detail about the proposal, which
was in its very earliest stages when I mentioned it to him, and I have no
idea whether his own time commitments would allow him to participate in
what now looks to be a three-month-ish process.

If Leon *can* participate, I expect he'll choose to do so: but a lot will
depend on the details of the invitation he receives, and how it fits with
his own schedule, life and necessities.

Back to the main thread.

*

Time has passed, Psyber-L has gone from a frenzy of GBG issues and posts to
near silence on that topic, and other issues have come up in the meantime.

Now Walter has written up his own statement of what he thinks his role
should be, and I am in full agreement with it.  The collegial relationship
which he describes is one that has been in effect for a long time: we
worked very closely together on the Dream Event, and while periods of
months sometimes go by in which we don't email each other off list, we have
what I see as a very fruitful way of working together when we're setting up
and co-hosting a project.  And I personally find Walter's input frequently
contains important inights that I'd miss if left to my own devices.

As I say, I think Walter's post today provides the missing piece of the
puzzle.  I think his paragraph:

> I have a deep respect for the life of a group, even when the going
> gets rough.  One sort of authority I don't expect myself to throw
> around is the list owner power of changing such things as the
> posting procedures or list membership.  It is in the nature of the
> medium that the list owner has such powers and it would be
> misleading to deny them.  I would respect the group dialogue
> before I took any action.  In this GBG group, co-hosted with
> Charles, in the unlikely event of the need occurring, I will be
> grateful for the opportunity to weigh up such matters with him.
> The most likely event is that I will be in the role of a quiet
> participant, guided by Charles as the games master, and that is
> what I am looking forward to.

says it all.  I think the "most likely event" scenario, in which Walter
says he will be in the role of a "quiet participant" is what all my "down
sizing" / "down playing" remarks were directed towards -- and that his
clarifications "It is in the nature of the medium that the list owner has
such powers" and "I would respect the group dialogue before I took any
action" cover the need for a clear statement on his side of what he feels
is necessary for himself as list-owner in the unhoped for event of the
group getting itself into real trouble, with members expressing strong
dissatisfaction, at some point.

Walter has, I'd suspect, a similar sense of his own role as List-owner here
on Psyber-L, Julienne, and while things have at times been uncomfortable
for you / seemed unfair to you here, you continue to be a list member and
to post on this list.  If you would feel equivalently able to participate
in the GBG event after reading Walter's post and this one, I think we're
about ready to proceed to the next step.

I feel that Walter's post says whatever needs to be said from his side, and
await your decision: would you still like to be part of the GBG event, now
that you have read Walter's description of his understanding of his own
role?

*

And the next step?

I'm getting close to the point where Annie may need to be taken to the
hospital -- the baby is due in about a month but such things don't follow a
rigid schedule -- and the discussion on Psyber-L has, as I said, moved
pretty much to other topics for the moment.  I think we've already got a
lot of things sorted out about the way such a group would work, and I have
a clear sense of some of the discussions we'll need once the group opens.

My sense at the moment is to take things at a fairly leisurely pace, to
continue working with Walter on the Invite and protocol drafts, put my
family first in terms of my own availability, and post the Invite when the
write up seems satisfactory and the time seems ripe.

I'm not in any hurry to proceed, in other words.  I had a sense of urgency
earlier, when the idea was first floated and posts and issues came flooding
in, a sense that we needed to "strike while the iron is hot" and move
forward in our common understanding of what the games themselves and the
group process would be -- hence my "flurry" of posts back then.  The way
things have worked out, I now feel we have a solid basis for developing the
materials, a bunch of interested participants -- and a little more room to
breathe.

I hope, Walter, that this post sits well with you, and would like again to
express my thanks to you for what has indeed been a long and rewarding
collegial relationship.  And Julienne, I hope we have covered enough ground
for you to feel comfortable enough to proceed.

With warm regards to all,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:39:55 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: help Required..

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:35:43 -0500, sc  wrote: >

Nancy writes:":Hoon, Please help me to begin to 'get in touch with' the verbal streams a portageaway from mine (when the groking fails) :"
>
>
>If we only know fate will be carried out through a way live is lived by
>another, then I wonder how we know what judgement or actions of ours, or
>their negation, are allowable? If we cannot know, than this lack of knowing
>applies both to our prospective errant inaction as well as our prospective
>errant action vis a vis what we do with respect to another.
>
>*
Nancy: HooN, Are you meaning:
: If we only know that fate will be carried out in  the way life is lived by another,
 then I wonder how we know what judement or actions of ours, (or withholding
 of said actions) are allowable (by an omniscient, intending, omipotent fate?) If we cannot know, then this lack of knowing applies both to our prospective errant inaction as well as to our prospective errant action vis-- vis what we do with respect to one another.

          ?????????  (I will not do a smiley face, I will not...)
>***
>
>forgive me if I am in error,
    (When you are pricked, do you not bleed?  Though less long and messily as some.)
>
>HooN
>
            Nancy (informed by Isis, trying to consolidation her intendings.)      _______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:01:27 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: GBG: a grain of distrust

June 25 1998, morning, Charles wrote:

>...Walter... analogous to the sort of things a host at a
>reception does, shaking hands, murmuring that he's glad you're here, saying
>good bye at the door at the end: and if you're going to have a fight with
>the host, it's not likely to be about the welcoming handshake, it's liable
>to be about the discussion you get into during the course of the party.
>That's why (ii) didn't seem to be a problem from my angle, I was using that
>category to describe the forms and courtesies of the situation, as opposed
>to anything substantial in the way of an intervention.
>
>Wlater's role (iv) as a regular participant, too, seemed to me to be
>unexceptionable.  Or to put that another way, if the host can't be invited
>to the party, I don't think we have a party at his house...
>
N:  Glad to see you moving into the metaphoic physical world.  Makes it much more likely my psyche will engage your content.
  Though I can well imagine how an incipient father might have wisps of desire to disengage from the entire world of 'matter'.
  Also glad to see a more from the more formal 'reception' to the more convivial
'party'.

>Charles continues:
> (iii),
> Walter might throw more weight around than other participants, either
>indirectly in the form of advice or directly by intervening using his
>list-owner status.
>
N: My personal experience with professional therapists (and psuedo therapists)
has been that they are often unable to discriminate between 'f2f', 'inUr face' and
'upUrface'.
  It may be that this grain will not be laid to rest in its pearl until we are up
close and personal with the first GBG.

Charles again:
>And the next step?
>
>I'm getting close to the point where Annie may need to be taken to the
>hospital -- the baby is due in about a month but such things don't follow a
>rigid schedule -- SOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
  With sniper's cramp and best wishes to the 1st family, I remain,

         Nancy (informed of Isis)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:49:56 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <3594314d.183018886@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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At 11:44 AM 6/25/98 +0000, Walter wrote:
>To:           PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980625001822.007c4a60@easynet.co.uk>
>
>Dolores, all,
>
>> As far as I am concerned only two people have expressed somewhere close to
>> rational sentiments on this matter.
>
>Back from my day at the office!  Phew.  A *situation* has been well aired
>here since i last looked.  In my opinion many good things were said ...
>
>Personally i have felt no inclination to act at any point while reading the
>posts.   Partly as because no hard information has been supplied.  Partly
>because no one apart from Dolores is asking for help.  Partly because it is
>all in a context that is unreliable.  Partly because i do not have the sort
>of means at my disposal that Hoon does.  Partly because there is a
>possibility that broken trust or interference might make it worse.  These
>weigh up strongly enough for me not to feel i have been a poor citizen even
>if there were a disaster, or the disaster described already is true, which
>it well might be.  I also understand the impulse to prevent such suffering,
>even while there is no consent on the part of the victim. It seems
>appropriate that the options are left open ...

I wonder, Walter, why I am not surprised at your non-reponse to a
call for help?

Perhaps it's our different types -.

I sure hope, that if I am ever attacked on the street, or emprisoned
in my home, that HooN is the one nearby.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:57:33 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: help Required..

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:49:56 -0400, Julienne  wrote:

>At 11:44 AM 6/25/98 +0000, Walter wrote:
>>To:           PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>>In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980625001822.007c4a60@easynet.co.uk>
>>
>>Dolores,
>>
>>>close to
>>> rational sentiments on this matter.
>>
>>Back from my day at the office!  Phew.  A *situation* has been well aired
>>here since i last looked.  In my opinion many good things were said ...
>>
>>Personally i have felt no inclination to act at any point while reading the
>>posts.   Partly as because no hard information has been supplied.  Partly
>>because no one apart from Dolores is asking for help.  Partly because it is
>>all in a context that is unreliable.  Partly because i do not have the sort
>>of means at my disposal that Hoon does.  Partly because there is a
>>possibility that broken trust or interference might make it worse.  These
>>weigh up strongly enough for me not to feel i have been a poor citizen even
>>if there were a disaster, or the disaster described already is true, which
>>it well might be.  I also understand the impulse to prevent such suffering,
>>even while there is no consent on the part of the victim. It seems
>>appropriate that the options are left open ...
>
>I wonder, Walter, why I am not surprised at your non-reponse to a
>call for help?
>
>Perhaps it's our different types -.
>
>I sure hope, that if I am ever attacked on the street, or emprisoned
>in my home, that HooN is the one nearby.
>
>Julienne

Me too, Julienne.  Me TOO!

      Nancy
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:58:37 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:23:33 -0400, you, Nancy Smith
<mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:

>JoAnne,
>
>  I 'heard' Hoon's tone to Dolores as outrage that such a thing could happen
>to the girl....and frustration that nothing was being done pronto, if not sooner.
>
>  Dolores 'heard' it as criticism and was thrown on the defensive.
>
>  You heard it as 'hostile'.
>
>   Whose 'ears' can we listen with, if not our own.  Thank the force we're
>listening.

Yes.  I had almost written that hoon should apologize, but realized
that he should do what he is moved to do, when it comes to apologies,
as forced ones are not much good!

>   I loved your recent 'banking gentle' and missed your 'dry wit' last Thursday
>...at least when I wasn't enjoying my own 'wallow' too much to miss anything.

Thank you, I bark (or bank) variably, sometimes to warn, sometimes to
be heard, sometimes just to listen to myself as I howl at the moon.

>   Defend away, though they both seem sturdy souls able to defend themselves,
>with perhaps more inner profit.

Perhaps.  I didn't want Dolores lost in the sauce of "what to do."

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:58:36 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <v04011701b1b7898a49ba@[207.54.181.75]>
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On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:55:09 -0500, you, sc <hoon@APK.NET>, wrote:

>On the basis of it being true, some have questioned whether this kind of
>'transaction' between consenting adults of major age is in fact illegal in
>the states. ?Jeez, I wonder how one would go about answering such a
>question?

How about by finding out if it's illegal to play "slave"?

I mean, why back away from the question with a snort like that, Hoon?
Why act as if the actual real situation can't be of interest, just the
dashing in like the white knight?

You know, I discussed this with my boyfriend last night over dinner,
and while explaining what happened I also told him that my first
priority is to people I know, who are right in front of me, whom I
know exist.  Like him, my mother, my friends, co-workers.

Second is to people I know about and believe to be what they are
represented to be, for example you, Anita, Dolores, the President,
people I don't know in person but know something about.

Third is people I've heard about but don't really know if what I've
heard is true.

Do women get locked into their own homes by jealous power-mad husbands
or boyfriends?  Yes.  Is this such a case?  I don't know.  It doesn't
sound like it to me.  It sounds like a particular kind of
sexually-oriented lifestyle that I don't much care for.

I have met a man who was once in the Hitler Youth.  I was told by a
friend of his that he once had a Jewish girlfriend who liked to play
Concentration Camp with him in the bedroom -- at her request.  Sick?
Well, maybe; I'm not a diagnostician, and I don't know the people
involved.

Is it the same as a real Concentration Camp?  No.  Her sexual fantasy
idea of a CC is not going to be anything like the real thing, just as
rape fantasies are not like the real thing.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:58:36 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:35:43 -0500, you, sc <hoon@APK.NET>, wrote:

>Anita,
>
>These may or may not end up being philosophical matters, especially since
>I'm hoping very much that my sense of learning through my own training and
>religious background, is proven to be true, but, when you wonder:
>
>"How can the outsiders - me  and the other neighbours  -know what is  the
>right way  for her to live  her life - or  in other words -  carry out her
>fate."
>
>my view is sympathetic except I see either the mistake or grace of our
>acting as if we know, is *no less* an expression of fate, ours and hers.

I like this twisty notion.   Of fate including our own fate as those
who interfere in the fate of others.

Does this leave room for fate, even?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:34:10 -1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Kennedy Levy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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Hypothetical-but-everyday-occurrence-somewhere

A woman lying on the footpath bleeding, unconscious.  She's not known to
me.  Could have 'brought it on herself' by 'choosing' to stay in a
relationship with a violent man.

I wonder if I should help.

Barry
_________________________________
Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:59:49 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <199806251937.HAA16109@cyclops.xtra.co.nz>
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At 07:34 AM 6/26/98 -1200, Barry wrote:
>Hypothetical-but-everyday-occurrence-somewhere
>
>A woman lying on the footpath bleeding, unconscious.  She's not known to
>me.  Could have 'brought it on herself' by 'choosing' to stay in a
>relationship with a violent man.
>
>I wonder if I should help.

Oh Barry, why not find a buddy and have a chat
about free will and non-interference?

FYI - it is illegal in the United States to emprison anyone
the way this woman is purported to be emprisoned.

We don't just leave people on the sidewalk.

I hate to remind anyone, but when I was in grief over
my father's death, JoAnne suggested I would be best
out of society and on the sidewalk where I wouldn't
bother cheerful people.

When did we become so uncaring? So isolated?
So stuck in our heads? So disconnected from our
hearts?

What if this woman were your own daughter?
I am half afraid to ask that question - afraid that we
would still split down the middle - with some of us
actually just declaring it would be our daughter's
responsibility, and we wouldn't want to interfere.

Maybe if there were more "interfering" we'd have
fewer children on drugs, fewer young prostitutes,
fewer Kip Kinkels. How alienated we have become
from each other. How unfeeling.

I have to ask HooN's question: just what "help"
did you want from us, Dolores?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:44:54 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 07:34:10 -1200, you, Kennedy Levy
<kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>, wrote:

>Hypothetical-but-everyday-occurrence-somewhere
>
>A woman lying on the footpath bleeding, unconscious.  She's not known to
>me.  Could have 'brought it on herself' by 'choosing' to stay in a
>relationship with a violent man.
>
>I wonder if I should help.

You do?  I would think the answer pretty clear.

You can't ask her about who or what caused the injury because she's
unconscious, so the presumption is she's not that way by choice.  You
call for an ambulance to come to where you are, because that's where
she is, and you render aid until the ambulance arrives.

You're not trying to say this is the same situation as the woman
Dolores talked to on IRC, are you?  Because it's different in plenty
of ways.  That woman says she's where she is by choice.  She's
conscious, at least enough to type into a computer.  We can't even see
if she's really been hurt, or in what way, or if she even exists, or
she's just a figment of someone's imagination, or a fantasy.  We don't
have a clear course of aid available to us, and some forms of aid have
a rather good chance of alienating this woman and sending her away
from what aid we can give her, or of making her situation worse.  And
they are difficult and may involve violating her privacy and that of
other people as well.

Now if you believe in forcible intervention into other people's
choices, that's your bag, not mine.  "It's not a free choice," you may
say.  Just because you don't understand why she would make that
choice?

Better stand back a minute and think about what other people would
decide about your own choices, and what you might be forced to do or
not do if that were the criterion used to allow or disallow your own
chosen behavior.  Not people you agree with.  People you disagree
with, whoever they may be.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:34:54 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:59:49 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>I hate to remind anyone, but when I was in grief over
>my father's death, JoAnne suggested I would be best
>out of society and on the sidewalk where I wouldn't
>bother cheerful people.

It appears to me that you love to remind everyone!

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:00:47 +0300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
Mime-Version: 1.0
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 Hi Hoon,
You write:
>The line does get crossed and it is only because I am human that if fate
>puts a knife to your throat Anita, that I would arrogantly wish to do
>something before it drew your
>blood.

Thanks Hoon. I  keep  this  in mind,  and  shall turn to you,    if I see  a
slightest  glimpse of  the knife of Fate.
    It's late  here,  I have  just  read  e-mails  having returned  home.
My  brains are not very bright   after   drinking wine with  friends, so
I'm not able to  philosophise   about  Fate, but  I  like to  response to
you with couple of  words.  My father used to say:"" If man is  destined to
drown, he will drown even in a spoonful of water".  My father drowned  in
alcohol.  Because  I couldn't  save him, I  tried  for years and years to
save  others who had   a drinking problem, but I never  succeed.  So I 'm  a
frustrated helper. Now I try  only  to help   animals and children in distress.

   >forgive me if I am in error, you said.
To  my mind you are not in error,  because ideals are eternal. And  you're
so young  ( in spirit) that you still have ideals,  and  kindness of the
heart. too. "  The highest  form of wisdom is kindness"  (Talmud).
Yours truthfully
Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:16:35 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <v04011703b1b7952d05de@[207.54.181.75]>
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The line does get crossed and it is only because I am human that if fate
puts a knife to your throat Anita, that I would arrogantly wish to do
something before it drew your

blood.

***

forgive me if I am in error,


As a matter of interest What would you do if Anita, of sound mind decided
to put the knife to her own throat?


However, in that case, since you also mention you feel your own judgement
about her lifestyle should be held in abeyance, I'm really not too sure why
it is you asked for help.)

Not sure Hoon why you bothered asking this..since you in fact answered it
yourself in one of the paragraph that preceeded it.

As I stated this morning, if (1) and (2) are likely true I will ask
for the information which will allow me to provide help as *I* see fit and
is appropriate.


Now, I sourced the information everywhere I could, I went to #submission
channels, I went to police channels, I asked here.
I made my own decision, that charging in like some avenging Angel to save
this girl who does not want to be saved, was possibly the right idea.
Maybe I will still need your help, because maybe, I am going to say to you,
she is in danger.  I got the help I needed from the replies of both Anita
and Julienne and a letter that came from this list anonymously. I wanted
advice, and that advice I looked at and saw the logic behind. The advice I
did not want was..pull her out. Lets send in the cavalry. Blood and Thunder
rescues and no mind to the consequences. Jump straight in and worry about
it later.
Advice I sought, Advice I was given, good sound advice. Advice I considered
and applied to every outcome, every variable. I didn't make my decison
lightly, that this sad as it is, is actually what this girl wants, its a
way for her to exist and be happy. I cannot interefere in that, until she
asks for help, until she wants to break the glass.
My mistake was in judging what I consider to be abhorant and sick by my own
standards and applying it to her circumstances.

If I have learnt anything from this, it is that we cannot change the fate
of others if they are determined to follow that path. We can only change
what we are allowed to or enpowered by others to alter. You cannot stop a
suicide if they are determined, you cannot stop somebody sticking a needle
in their arm and administering a dose of crack, you can only help when help
is wanted. You cannot get through to somebody that does not want to listen.
I can't do anything for this girl, because she doesn't want me to. I don't
have a saviour complex. Anything I did now would only be to make me feel
good. For now I will sit and watch and hope she asks for help. I will sit
and watch and decide if she is in any real danger, but the truth is, she is
happy. Is she any more insane for wanting to be a PET a slave? Is she
insane, no, is she troubled, not in her mind. Is she happy, yes.
I am judging her happiness on what I would not want for myself, or for my
daughter. She is happy, I have no right I now believe to interfere in that
happiness unless I think that she is incapable of making a sane and
rational decision on her own welfare and wellbeing. This decision was
arrived at by talking here, to the US police, and to the submissives
themselves.

I do not feel I am doing wrong or that I am absolving myself of
responsibility. To me irresponsible would have been to charge in
regardless, to not have made certain of all the facts, to not have looked
at all the angles, variables and probabilities.

So I say again.. look at your own answer for mine, as to what I wanted.

Dolores

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:00:36 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      voluntary servitude
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Some interesting legal sites I found in researching the problem:

http://www.mind-trek.com/treatise/edlb-vs.htm
http://www.techmgmt.com/restore/legalslv.htm
http://www.pbc.org/dp/goins/3897.html
http://www-phil.tamu.edu/Faculty/Kimbrough/surrgcy.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/2.06/departments/electrosphere/alt.sex.bondage.html

Haven't found an absolute answer yet.  Involuntary servitude is of
course illegal.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:14:07 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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>I am judging her happiness on what I would not want for myself, or for my
>daughter. She is happy, I have no right I now believe to interfere in that
>happiness unless I think that she is incapable of making a sane and
>rational decision on her own welfare and wellbeing. This decision was
>arrived at by talking here, to the US police, and to the submissives
>themselves.
>
>I do not feel I am doing wrong or that I am absolving myself of
>responsibility. To me irresponsible would have been to charge in
>regardless, to not have made certain of all the facts, to not have looked
>at all the angles, variables and probabilities.
>
>So I say again.. look at your own answer for mine, as to what I wanted.
>
>Dolores

Your word on these matters is sufficient. It doesn't establish facts but
they are the best reckoning we've got here in psyberia.

Anyway...my horse ran away this morning.

And I hate walking in.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:54:26 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      twists of fate and magic
In-Reply-To:  <199806252300.CAA23236@walrus.megabaud.fi>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Anita writes,

My father used to say: "If man is destined to drown, he will drown even in
a spoonful of water".  My father drowned  in alcohol."

Yes, perhaps attempts to twist fate to ends other than the fate-full end
must always fail.

***

(This is about "story" as well. We don't necessarily have a grasp on the
contour of our fate, yet, this sudden, greater, grasp may be exactly what
allows the addict to attempt to not take the favored drug. Recovering
addict's narratives are full of odd twists of fate when the message
apparently went from God's lips through another into the addict's ear. This
is a 'chapter' I've heard many, many times. When the addict's salvation is
ongoing then there is light in the darkened corridors of terribleness,
sadness, hardness.)

There is a Sufi saying: "It takes imagination to defeat imagination." In
today's age, it might be better to alter it, *It takes magic to cure one of
magic*."

***

My twin brother suicided in 1993 and thus was delivered from terrible
suffering. For several years, after returning to live here in the aftermath
of an earlier suicide attempt, it was my job to go check up on him when he
didn't answer the phone at his apartment. Every time he would greet me at
the door wondering 'why I was there'. On the last occasion I found him
comatose on the floor after he had taken an overdose of his medications. I
called an ambulance which took him to the hospital. He never regained
consciousness and passed to the next world directly from the ICU ten days
later due to irrevocable damage to his kidneys and the subsequent
systematic destruction of his ability to maintain blood pressure.

When I called the ambulance I knew already the situation was grave. For
seven of the ten days I wished my brother to awaken so that he could resume
his tortured life, and then, for the three last days I wished for him to
pass quickly and painlessly to a judgement I prayed would be merciful.

I do not regret not having been conscious enough to, when i found him on
the floor of his apartment, simply sit there with my him and, by doing
nothing, watch him die. I cannot even say I was particularly conscious when
I did sit next to him ten days later, and, twenty minutes after life
support was removed, witnessed his passing on.

***

There aren't right answers in some cases...we approach the fragile thread
with our "Ithouness" if we're so blessed, and still the thread remains
forever

fragile.

***

HooN

ps - sometimes the only strong part of a thread is what has been ordained
for it. Still, I count fortune as gratitude, small as my ability is...it
may be this puer's deluded way of defying the terribleness.

Oh, and I laugh a heckuva lot every day.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:46:42 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <35bcc4e2.87252921@mail.clark.net>
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At 10:34 PM 6/25/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:59:49 -0400, you, Julienne
><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>
>>I hate to remind anyone, but when I was in grief over
>>my father's death, JoAnne suggested I would be best
>>out of society and on the sidewalk where I wouldn't
>>bother cheerful people.
>
>It appears to me that you love to remind everyone!

No, I hate to remind everyone because I know there will
be another cold or angry response.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:19:57 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: twists of fate and magic

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 21:54:26 -0500, sc  wrote:

HooN, you are/were not identical twins, were you?
  Oh, why do people burden us with a pretence of knowing the answer to all the
questions, when the questions themselves are hardly understood?  (A cry in this eternal night from:)

  Nancy
  Mother of twins and one loveable, loving son who is destroying himself with alcohol.


>My twin brother suicided in 1993 and thus was delivered from terrible
>suffering. For several years, after returning to live here in the aftermath
>of an earlier suicide attempt, it was my job to go check up on him when he
>didn't answer the phone at his apartment. Every time he would greet me at
>the door wondering 'why I was there'. On the last occasion I found him
>comatose on the floor after he had taken an overdose of his medications. I
>called an ambulance which took him to the hospital. He never regained
>consciousness and passed to the next world directly from the ICU ten days
>later due to irrevocable damage to his kidneys and the subsequent
>systematic destruction of his ability to maintain blood pressure.
>
>When I called the ambulance I knew already the situation was grave. For
>seven of the ten days I wished my brother to awaken so that he could resume
>his tortured life, and then, for the three last days I wished for him to
>pass quickly and painlessly to a judgement I prayed would be merciful.
>
>I do not regret not having been conscious enough to, when i found him on
>the floor of his apartment, simply sit there with my him and, by doing
>nothing, watch him die. I cannot even say I was particularly conscious when
>I did sit next to him ten days later, and, twenty minutes after life
>support was removed, witnessed his passing on.
>
>***
>
>There aren't right answers in some cases...we approach the fragile thread
>with our "Ithouness" if we're so blessed, and still the thread remains
>forever
>
>fragile.
>
>***
>
>HooN
>
>ps - sometimes the only strong part of a thread is what has been ordained
>for it. Still, I count fortune as gratitude, small as my ability is...it
>may be this puer's deluded way of defying the terribleness.
>
>Oh, and I laugh a heckuva lot every day.
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 00:57:47 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <199806252300.CAA23236@walrus.megabaud.fi>
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At 02:00 AM 6/26/98 +0300, Anita wrote:
 My father used to say:"" If man is  destined to
>drown, he will drown even in a spoonful of water".  My father drowned  in
>alcohol.  Because  I couldn't  save him, I  tried  for years and years to
>save  others who had   a drinking problem, but I never  succeed.  So I 'm  a
>frustrated helper. Now I try  only  to help   animals and children in
distress.

And HooN spoke of his feelings about his twin's death.

I hope though, that we never come to believe in this kind
of hopelessly fated destiny - because if that's all there is, we might as
well just do anything at all...

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:51:08 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <19980626045814.QTVK6357@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>I hope though, that we never come to believe in this kind
>of hopelessly fated destiny - because if that's all there is, we might as
>well just do anything at all...
>
>Julienne


It's a question for the ages, yes? What is inevitable, what is not? Persons
have a wide range of beliefs and responses to those beliefs of course. My
experience of people is that most have a sense of fate but don't let that
sense order their lives. Then the case is less one of fate but more of
actualization.

However, my experience also is: no matter what, it is very unusual to find
somebody is going about their life "doing anything at all".

We have our reasons, one way or the other; the 'reasoningdrama' and its
peculiar logic(s)...writ larger... both standing in my view, before fate,
as fate's way of facing itself.

***

It's humbling. How terrifying that our existance might not be in the world!

What approach could possibly work? (Charles, how does one increase their
necessity?)

***

fragrant laughter?

dancing *completely*?

???


HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:53:26 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: twists of fate and magic
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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Nancy, all,

I was a fraternal twin; but you go back to the pool of amniotic (sp?) fluid
and I just see him as my swimming bud, "fellow member of the clan". Also,
he was bi-polar with affectual complications; devastatingly aware of his
condition and never sufficiently relieved by the drug regimens and the
terrible symptoms the regimen itself promoted.

Fate may partly genes; in his part, perhaps a large part; his genes killed
him, surely.

***

Nancy you beg the question of your own twins...ummm, how much they look alike!

Your loved and loving son who is so spirited...damn. Such is our power and
our powerlessness.

(It's more than humbling.)

***

the thread of children comes back around,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:01:52 -1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Kennedy Levy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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Hi Joanne

> You can't ask her about who or what caused the injury because she's
> unconscious, so the presumption is she's not that way by choice.

Safe presumption in that moment, but she could, for instance, have taken an
overdose and cut her wrists, by choice, to end her miserable life.  Or
whatever.  None of this would change my response.

> You
> call for an ambulance to come to where you are, because that's where
> she is, and you render aid until the ambulance arrives.

Of course, unconditionally, as would most people, I think.  Which is my
point.

> You're not trying to say this is the same situation as the woman
> Dolores talked to on IRC, are you?  Because it's different in plenty
> of ways.  That woman says she's where she is by choice.

There comes a point in most Western jurisdictions, where what we accept,
prefer, or even demand being done to us by someone else is illegal and
deemed by a humanitarian state to be against the people of the state.  And
rightly so, in my opinion.

> She's
> conscious, at least enough to type into a computer.  We can't even see
> if she's really been hurt, or in what way, or if she even exists, or
> she's just a figment of someone's imagination, or a fantasy.

Hence Dolores' careful approach.

> We don't
> have a clear course of aid available to us, and some forms of aid have
> a rather good chance of alienating this woman and sending her away
> from what aid we can give her, or of making her situation worse.  And
> they are difficult and may involve violating her privacy and that of
> other people as well.

All of what you say here is true.  But if someone is being hurt or killed,
stuff privacy. imho.

> Now if you believe in forcible intervention into other people's
> choices, that's your bag, not mine.  "It's not a free choice," you may
> say.  Just because you don't understand why she would make that
> choice?

I do believe in forcible intervention into other peoples choices at some
point.  I believe I have a reasonably good understanding of why and how
people make choices, which I may not agree with or choose myself.

> Better stand back a minute and think about what other people would
> decide about your own choices, and what you might be forced to do or
> not do if that were the criterion used to allow or disallow your own
> chosen behavior.  Not people you agree with.  People you disagree
> with, whoever they may be.

Absolutely a very good point of reference, within the limits of the law and
people getting hurt or killed.  If I choose to let someone hurt me, or
choose to hurt someone else, I can reasonably expect forcible intervention
into my choice.  I believe this is a good measure of a civilised and caring
society.

I also think the issue is worth the careful consideration and analysis you
give, Joanne.

Barry
_________________________________
Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:02:33 -1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Kennedy Levy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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Hi Julienne

> >I wonder if I should help.
>
> Oh Barry, why not find a buddy and have a chat
> about free will and non-interference?
>
> FYI - it is illegal in the United States to emprison anyone
> the way this woman is purported to be emprisoned.
>
> We don't just leave people on the sidewalk.

I know.  Thank goodness.

I think extremely valid points have been raised about choice and at what
point others should intervene despite what the 'chooser' wants.  I do not
envy Dolores.  I like her a lot from what little I know of her via her
posts here.  The issue is fraught and I know I'm being simplistic in
reducing it to my hypothetical situation.  But I prefer the 'safe rather
than sorry' philosophy.  And I'll blow the whistle on self harm or harm to
others.  Everytime.  Call me old fashioned . . .

You have a good heart, Julienne.

Barry
_________________________________
Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:07:33 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: twists of fate and magic

On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:53:26 -0500, sc  wrote:

>Nancy, all,
>
>I was a fraternal twin; but you go back to the pool of amniotic (sp?) fluid
>and I just see him as my swimming bud, "fellow member of the clan". Also,
>he was bi-polar with affectual complications; devastatingly aware of his
>condition and never sufficiently relieved by the drug regimens and the
>terrible symptoms the regimen itself promoted.
>
>Fate may partly genes; in his part, perhaps a large part; his genes killed
>him, surely.
>
>***
>
>Nancy you beg the question of your own twins...ummm, how much they look alike!
>
N: I'm not sure which question (of the billions I've ask  myself) you feel I've 'beg'.  Rather would I beg  answers and often have, with many then received....yet in each applicatoin some grain was lost...some grain whichin whose core was that very answer for which I'd chaffed my fingers raw upon it crushed glass hull.

>Your loved and loving son who is so spirited...damn. Such is our power and
>our powerlessness.

Yes.  Damn.  For we deal here with a demon spirit which kills the frailer human
spirit.  Damn

                 Damn      Dawn
      two words               two freight cars
      so similar                 so different
                      in freight



   When David was born.......it was an easy birth......He came willingly into live...
trailing no clouds......of immortality....all kids feel themself immortal ...but David...
my ENFP is always in the moment...where only smiles and action live.  In that
moment...no consequences are.   He believes in the now, the then does not
exist.
   When he was one, crawling in diapers about our Phoenixian home, one day
he became entranced with a door stopper on a coil.  With his graceful baby
finger he would tweek it then sit back chortling to watch its bonded springe and
hear its 'bong'.  He's watch as it slowed, stopped, stayed.  Then reaching forward tweek it once again.  I know not what he thought.  Perhaps the eventually he could free it to go its separate life unmindful of the door.  I know
not if he thought, or only sat as the 'bong' freed something in him...and freed again.   Of what is our chortle except an inner freeing?



>
>(It's more than humbling.)
>
>***
>
>the thread of children comes back around,
>
>HooN
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:29:36 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: On the sidewalk
In-Reply-To:  <v04011700b1b8b3ecb48c@[207.54.181.116]>
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Dear Barry/Anita/JoJo/Jul etc. etc. everybody else..

Do we leave people on the sidewalk?

I'm afraid we do. I think we have all at one point or another walked on by.

On two occassions in the time I was with my ex husband, the first time an
old man fell down in front of us, he cracked his head on the wall of a
garden as he fell. He was bleeding everywhere, my husband held him, and
spoke to him, he was covered in blood, people saw what was happening and
came to help. I went to call an ambulance.=20

Another occasion we were walking along the road when a car approached us at
speed, it avoided us and hit a concrete grit bin, the bin slid across the
pavement and careered into us. People ran to our aid, we were taken to
somebodys flat, they gave us tea, gave us bandages, called us a Taxi home.

Another time, my husband and I were walking in London. Along staggered a
drunken man, his head was bleeding, he was carrying a broken bottle. My
husband pulled me across the street.

As a child I stood and watched as my Aunt in Spain, kicked from the doorway
an unconcious drug addict. She said, that they would pick him up with the
rest of the rubbish in the morning.

I stood at the doors to Rouen Cathedral, a woman in rags held out one hand,
the other held a baby. My heart bled for the baby, when I knew what Tara
had at home, Tara would never be wrapped in rags. I wanted to give her
money, the man I was with pulled me away, and gave me a lecture on giving
money to beggars. It encouraged them. I looked at the baby covered in
scabs, part of me wanted to ask the woman how much she wanted for the baby.
Not because I wanted another baby, but because no child should be brought
up like that on the streets. Then again, I was always rescuing baby pigeons
and stray dogs that weren't really stray dogs, when I was a child.

Now I look at the pictures as they arrive of the children from Sudan, and a
friend of mine who believes in Natural selection says its the planets way
of purging a population it cannot feed. I look at the children and they can
barely be bothered to swat the flies from their eyes. Even horses blink and
shiver when they try to move the flies that plague them. The children dont'
bother to, they just sit and stare at the cameras, and I look at their
bones and wonder how as one boy stands, he manages to stand at all. I give
=A35, and I walk on by, because theres nothing I can do above give =A35. Tha=
t
makes me angry.
It makes me angry I waste so much, that food for me is a nuicence that has
to be purchased. I look at the half eaten food in the refrigerator. I
remember the starving children and I reach for a sandwich. It sadly does
not stick in my throat the way I wished it would.

There are adverts on British Television, showing a series of situations
filmed by hidden camera, in prominant London Locations where there are alot
of crowds. In the first, the stooge is standing on the ledge of Waterloo
bridge, considering throwing himself off into the murky Thames. The camera
shows how 70% of the people walk on by. A few people try to pull him down,
take his arm. The majority walk past, heads firmly forward. We walk on by.=
=20
The other shows children in a subway station, one boy is being pushed
around by bullys, and again, most people pretend not to see.  One woman is
particularly good she chases the other boys off, returns the boys bag to
him and comforts him.

The point is, I think that we walk on by for a lot of reasons, If fate were
holding a knife to Anitas throat and that knife were wielded by a group of
men about to rape and mug her, and you were by yourself walking past, If in
split seconds you had to decide if it was anitas throat or your
intervention..what would you do?
The answer I would give is that I would walk on by, I too would pretend I
hadn't seen.  Course when I got to a safe distance I'd run and scream and
shout for help, but until I got there, I'd be walking past trying not to
notice or be noticed.

Not particularly admirable is it? Still I'm forced to admit I probably can
live with that less admirable part of my nature.

Dolores

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:54:12 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: twists of fate and magic

On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:53:26 -0500, sc  wrote:

>Nancy, all,
>
>I was a fraternal twin; but you go back to the pool of amniotic (sp?) fluid
>and I just see him as my swimming bud, "fellow member of the clan". Also,
>he was bi-polar with affectual complications; devastatingly aware of his
>condition and never sufficiently relieved by the drug regimens and the
>terrible symptoms the regimen itself promoted.
>
>Fate may partly genes; in his part, perhaps a large part; his genes killed
>him, surely.
>
>***
>
>Nancy you beg the question of your own twins...ummm, how much they look alike!
>
N: I'm not sure which question (of the billions I've ask  myself) you feel I've 'beg'.  Rather would I beg  answers and often have, with many then received....yet in each applicatoin some grain was lost...some grain whichin whose core was that very answer for which I'd chaffed my fingers raw upon it crushed glass hull.

>Your loved and loving son who is so spirited...damn. Such is our power and
>our powerlessness.

Yes.  Damn.  For we deal here with a demon spirit which kills the frailer human
spirit.  Damn

                 Damn      Dawn
      two words               two freight cars
      so similar                 so different
                      in freight

                                                DAVID

   When David was born.......it was an easy birth......He came willingly into live...
trailing no clouds......of immortality....all kids feel themself immortal ...but David...
my ENFP is always in the moment...where only smiles and action live.  In that
moment...no consequences are.   He believes in the now, the then does not
exist.

   When he was one, crawling in diapers about our Phoenix home, one day
he became entranced with a door stopper on a coil.  With his graceful baby
finger he would tweek it and  then sit back chortling to watch its bonded springe and hear its hollow 'bong'.  He's watch as it slowed, stopped, stayed.  Then reaching forward tweek it once again.  I know not what he thought.  Perhaps that eventually he could free it to go its separate way unmindful of the door, the
tweeking child, the watching mother.  I know not if he thought, or only sat as the 'bong' freed something in him...and freed again.   Of what is our chortle except an inner freeing?

  At 1 12  he found an open can containing kerosene which Auvo had burned after cleaning paint brushes.  Out of sigjt in the safely fenced yard we did not know until he reappeared with a black circle about his mouth.   We raced to the emergency room where his stomach was pumped.  But he had attention for none of this.  Only for "Hey wook!  Wook at the black ghosties!"  St. Mary's
was run by nuns.

  At two, he went with us and his older brother, Roger, to Europe. Toddling through its  ancient streets, thumb in mouth, eyes on the cobble
stones.  He raised them to gaze in awe a statue of  himself, the thought,  Manikan Piss,  Chortles rained like fountain drops. In hotels he went first and often to examine the water closets.  Each worked a little differently.  It was his job to explore them all.  To feel the chain, watch the swirling water, hear the creaks and gurgles.  We joked that he would become  a plumber..
  In Copenhaigen he pooped upon a fine upholstered chain in one of their finer restaurants.  His father placed a linen napkin on his hand, then David.  And with
arms outstreched spirited him off to our waiting room.

  In grammar he was ever moving hands, feet, mouth, whole bod..  He made all Cs and many friends.  His professional sister still remembers how David intervened with the
neighbor bully saying "Not MY sister you don't!"

  At 13 his feet stank.  He was not self-consience.  We laughed and teased saying, "Oh, please, keep your shoes on!"  "We'll have to leave the room!"
"No!  Not at the table!"

  And now he says "Mom, they think the nerve damage to the base of my skull
may heal in time..., if I don't drink.  But Mom, you don't want to see me now.  I
walk like a pregnant woman.  You don't want to see it."  And then he goes out
for another bottle.
                                 He, too, is bi-polar
                                         Nancy


                         >(It's more than humbling.)
>
>***
>
>             the thread of children comes back around,
>
>                                       HooN
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:36:09 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: On the sidewalk
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980626142936.007b19a0@easynet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 02:29 PM 6/26/98 +0100, Dolores wrote:
>Dear Barry/Anita/JoJo/Jul etc. etc. everybody else..
>
>Do we leave people on the sidewalk?
>
>I'm afraid we do. I think we have all at one point or another walked on by.

>Now I look at the pictures as they arrive of the children from Sudan, and a
>friend of mine who believes in Natural selection says its the planets way
>of purging a population it cannot feed.

Which is, of course, nothing more than excuse, because we CAN
feed everyone on the planet.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:07:49 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980625224515.01061220@postoffice.att.net>
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On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:46:42 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 10:34 PM 6/25/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:59:49 -0400, you, Julienne
>><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>>
>>>I hate to remind anyone, but when I was in grief over
>>>my father's death, JoAnne suggested I would be best
>>>out of society and on the sidewalk where I wouldn't
>>>bother cheerful people.
>>
>>It appears to me that you love to remind everyone!
>
>No, I hate to remind everyone because I know there will
>be another cold or angry response.

It seems to me that expecting a cold or angry response, as a
certainty, could mean that any response you get will be interpreted as
cold or angry.

I was laughing when I wrote this, interpret that as you will.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 18:07:49 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <199806261005.WAA22476@cyclops.xtra.co.nz>
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On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:01:52 -1200, you, Kennedy Levy
<kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>, wrote:

>Hi Joanne
>
>> You can't ask her about who or what caused the injury because she's
>> unconscious, so the presumption is she's not that way by choice.
>
>Safe presumption in that moment, but she could, for instance, have taken an
>overdose and cut her wrists, by choice, to end her miserable life.  Or
>whatever.  None of this would change my response.

Probably not mine, either, though if it were the person's carefully
considered choice of suicide versus painful death I might not
intervene.  But that presupposes a lot of knowledge, which we don't
have.

>> You
>> call for an ambulance to come to where you are, because that's where
>> she is, and you render aid until the ambulance arrives.
>
>Of course, unconditionally, as would most people, I think.  Which is my
>point.
>
>> You're not trying to say this is the same situation as the woman
>> Dolores talked to on IRC, are you?  Because it's different in plenty
>> of ways.  That woman says she's where she is by choice.
>
>There comes a point in most Western jurisdictions, where what we accept,
>prefer, or even demand being done to us by someone else is illegal and
>deemed by a humanitarian state to be against the people of the state.  And
>rightly so, in my opinion.

Where does that point lie?  Every person's answer will be different,
of course.  Prostitution?  Pornography?  Religious groups and cults
(real and imagined)?

>> She's
>> conscious, at least enough to type into a computer.  We can't even see
>> if she's really been hurt, or in what way, or if she even exists, or
>> she's just a figment of someone's imagination, or a fantasy.
>
>Hence Dolores' careful approach.
>
>> We don't
>> have a clear course of aid available to us, and some forms of aid have
>> a rather good chance of alienating this woman and sending her away
>> from what aid we can give her, or of making her situation worse.  And
>> they are difficult and may involve violating her privacy and that of
>> other people as well.
>
>All of what you say here is true.  But if someone is being hurt or killed,
>stuff privacy. imho.

Privacy is only one issue in the above paragraph.  If someone is being
hurt or killed and we intervene only to make that hurting or killing
more likely or worse, we've failed.  Good intentions and well-paved
roads and all that.

>> Now if you believe in forcible intervention into other people's
>> choices, that's your bag, not mine.  "It's not a free choice," you may
>> say.  Just because you don't understand why she would make that
>> choice?
>
>I do believe in forcible intervention into other peoples choices at some
>point.  I believe I have a reasonably good understanding of why and how
>people make choices, which I may not agree with or choose myself.

What would make this person make this choice, do you think?

>> Better stand back a minute and think about what other people would
>> decide about your own choices, and what you might be forced to do or
>> not do if that were the criterion used to allow or disallow your own
>> chosen behavior.  Not people you agree with.  People you disagree
>> with, whoever they may be.
>
>Absolutely a very good point of reference, within the limits of the law and
>people getting hurt or killed.  If I choose to let someone hurt me, or
>choose to hurt someone else, I can reasonably expect forcible intervention
>into my choice.  I believe this is a good measure of a civilised and caring
>society.

How do we define hurt?  In some people's opinion, some religious
groups, major ones, hurt the people in them.  Do we then make that
illegal?  In other opinions, things like astrology hurt people, and in
fact laws against practicing astrology have been passed in many US
states (and I would guess elsewhere also).

>I also think the issue is worth the careful consideration and analysis you
>give, Joanne.

Yours too, Barry.  I'm looking forward to more.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:24:31 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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At 06:07 PM 6/26/98 +0000, JoAnneyou wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:46:42 -0400, you, Julienne
><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>
>>At 10:34 PM 6/25/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:59:49 -0400, you, Julienne
>>><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>>>
>>>>I hate to remind anyone, but when I was in grief over
>>>>my father's death, JoAnne suggested I would be best
>>>>out of society and on the sidewalk where I wouldn't
>>>>bother cheerful people.
>>>
>>>It appears to me that you love to remind everyone!
>>
>>No, I hate to remind everyone because I know there will
>>be another cold or angry response.
>
>It seems to me that expecting a cold or angry response, as a
>certainty, could mean that any response you get will be interpreted as
>cold or angry.
>
>I was laughing when I wrote this, interpret that as you will.

That you think it's funny?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:56:22 +0300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Vs: [P] twists of fate and magic
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hi Nancy and HooN,

It seems, that Fate does not  pass any human being, but  burdens everybody.
 Some  gets  through  fate's rough handling  without becoming bitter, as my
grandmother who  didn't   lose  her  sense of  humor, although  she  lost
her  husband , two sons,   home and  property, and was  sent to a
concentration camp, and after it to Siberia. I think that somehow disasters
deepened her  sense of  humor.

Cheers
Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:22:15 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Vs: [P] twists of fate and magic
In-Reply-To:  <199806262102.AAA16341@walrus.megabaud.fi>
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At 11:56 PM 6/26/98 +0300, Anita wrote:
>Hi Nancy and HooN,
>
>It seems, that Fate does not  pass any human being, but  burdens everybody.
> Some  gets  through  fate's rough handling  without becoming bitter, as my
>grandmother who  didn't   lose  her  sense of  humor, although  she  lost
>her  husband , two sons,   home and  property, and was  sent to a
>concentration camp, and after it to Siberia. I think that somehow disasters
>deepened her  sense of  humor.

So many comedians are Capricorn. When things are at their worst,
there's nowhere to go but mad, off the bridge, or to look at the funny
side of things for release. Look at how we sometimes get the giggles
when we hear someone has died.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:37:39 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:24:31 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 06:07 PM 6/26/98 +0000, JoAnneyou wrote:
>>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:46:42 -0400, you, Julienne
>><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>>
>>>At 10:34 PM 6/25/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>>>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:59:49 -0400, you, Julienne
>>>><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I hate to remind anyone, but when I was in grief over
>>>>>my father's death, JoAnne suggested I would be best
>>>>>out of society and on the sidewalk where I wouldn't
>>>>>bother cheerful people.
>>>>
>>>>It appears to me that you love to remind everyone!
>>>
>>>No, I hate to remind everyone because I know there will
>>>be another cold or angry response.
>>
>>It seems to me that expecting a cold or angry response, as a
>>certainty, could mean that any response you get will be interpreted as
>>cold or angry.
>>
>>I was laughing when I wrote this, interpret that as you will.
>
>That you think it's funny?

Yes.  To clarify, that you would say "I hate to remind anyone" and
then remind us all yet again.  Doing something many times, leaping to
it when you get the chance, and yet saying you hate to do it seems
incongruous.

That phrase "I hate to tell you this" just struck me funny.  "I hate
to tell you this" can so often mean "I love to tell you this."  Like,
"I hate to tell you this, Mr. Falwell, but God's on the phone, and
he's calling from Salt Lake City."

I wasn't laughing at the idea that you would interpret any response as
cold or angry.  It's sort of ironic, not funny, and really, it's sad
to think about what that would be like.

I really am sorry you feel that way, and often mystified by it.  I
don't think I've ever found a way to communicate with you that you
didn't eventually take as hostile.  I could be wrong, though.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:08:36 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      A beautiful symmetry
In-Reply-To:  <19980625181813.GCNA6357@default>
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All,

What is at work in our lives?  Fate?  Destiny?  God? The autonomous psyche
which knows what It is doing? or daemons who plot our path?  Synchronicity?
By any name I can see them here.

We have an almost  year old theme here involving the notion that Julienne
is a victim of various people on the list and sometimes the whole of
Psyber-L.  Is she a voluntary victim?  Is "help required?"  It has involved
me investigating threats, and looking at the "legal" aspects of Psyber-l,
our charters.  Are we less than human when we walk past someone on the
sidewalk?  Do we need outside help? We have wondered what archetypal
structures we are enacting and we have come up with gender wars and cat
fights, grains of sand inside the pearl.  We make efforts to see the big
picture.

Then Dolores writes about a slave girl.  Discussion follows:

Is help required?  Is it voluntary serfdom?   Who has the power to
intervene, the right?  Is it a lifestyle choice?  Even if it is, What is
the legal situation? What are the moral implications?

Common to both situations is the search for safety, for leadership, for
autonomy, and in both there is a gender question.

Dolores, were you aware of the parallels? It is as if you invented the
story so that we could look at the depths of another ... which of course
also points to a greater depth. I know hat you did not do that Dolores, but
how does it happen that light from one story shines on the other?

 HooN has already spoken of a beautiful symmetry with the gender wars.
(twin situations?)  Adding to the symmetry is the framing of these
discussions with the "Patterns of the Soul"  thread and "two approaches
myth" which both speak about the very phenomena I am describing here.

"God is always within and among us, as he is for children. Instead of
coming down from the skies, he comes in by way of the stage door. God is
not dead, he is alive in psychodrama!"
(Moreno, Psychodrama Vol. 3, P22.)

May we be able to use the imagination to heal the imagination, as the Sufis
say. (thanks Hoon).


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:19:33 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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At 09:37 PM 6/26/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:24:31 -0400, you, Julienne
><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>
>>At 06:07 PM 6/26/98 +0000, JoAnneyou wrote:
>>>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 22:46:42 -0400, you, Julienne
>>><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>>>
>>>>At 10:34 PM 6/25/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>>>>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:59:49 -0400, you, Julienne
>>>>><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I hate to remind anyone, but when I was in grief over
>>>>>>my father's death, JoAnne suggested I would be best
>>>>>>out of society and on the sidewalk where I wouldn't
>>>>>>bother cheerful people.
>>>>>
>>>>>It appears to me that you love to remind everyone!
>>>>
>>>>No, I hate to remind everyone because I know there will
>>>>be another cold or angry response.
>>>
>>>It seems to me that expecting a cold or angry response, as a
>>>certainty, could mean that any response you get will be interpreted as
>>>cold or angry.
>>>
>>>I was laughing when I wrote this, interpret that as you will.
>>
>>That you think it's funny?

JoAnne, you said to me, "interpret that as you will"

I interpreted it that you thought it was funny.

That's all.

Julienne

>Yes.  To clarify, that you would say "I hate to remind anyone" and
>then remind us all yet again.  Doing something many times, leaping to
>it when you get the chance, and yet saying you hate to do it seems
>incongruous.
>
>That phrase "I hate to tell you this" just struck me funny.  "I hate
>to tell you this" can so often mean "I love to tell you this."  Like,
>"I hate to tell you this, Mr. Falwell, but God's on the phone, and
>he's calling from Salt Lake City."
>
>I wasn't laughing at the idea that you would interpret any response as
>cold or angry.  It's sort of ironic, not funny, and really, it's sad
>to think about what that would be like.
>
>I really am sorry you feel that way, and often mystified by it.  I
>don't think I've ever found a way to communicate with you that you
>didn't eventually take as hostile.  I could be wrong, though.
>
>-JoAnne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 00:14:34 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: help Required..

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>           << < <<>> > >>  .?,,!....^^^^   ?? ? ???   ~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 05:02:23 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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Nancy Smith

The Jackson Pollock of email!

>
> >
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>           << < <<>> > >>  .?,,!....^^^^   ?? ? ???   ~~~~~~~
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>









__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 05:48:30 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: twists of fate and magic
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Nancy,

I feel a bit awkward about the comment I sent in response to your last post
... it was meant in good fun and with a touch of admiration, but then
recall that you have felt "admonished" by me when you first arrived ...
which was not my intention at all as you probably understand.  I understand
your mistrust of therapists too ... and share it even though i am one.  I
appreciate your contributions and I am aquiring a taste for your posts.

Your words i quote below have a poetic quality and lead me to experience a
desperation only half understood.  I sense that you are drawing on our
experience here to speak of your life.

> N: I'm not sure which question (of the billions I've ask  myself)
> you feel I've 'beg'.  Rather would I beg  answers and often have,
> with many then received....yet in each applicatoin some grain was lost...
> some grain whichin whose core was that very answer
> for which I'd chaffed my fingers raw upon it crushed glass hull.


Hoon wrote:
> >Your loved and loving son who is so spirited...damn. Such is our power and
> >our powerlessness.

And you respond:
> Yes.  Damn.  For we deal here with a demon spirit which kills the frailer human
> spirit.  Damn
>
>                  Damn      Dawn
>       two words               two freight cars
>       so similar                 so different
>                       in freight


Which I find has unforgettable beauty even though I also hear the cry of
pain.  Which makes me think of the beauty and the pain & sadness I have
seen & experience in Psyber-L.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 05:52:37 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: voluntary servitude
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JoAnne

> Some interesting legal sites I found in researching the problem:

Thanks for these!

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 03:10:50 -0400
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              was retained.
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: TRIPE!!!!!!!
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>All,
>
>What is at work in our lives?  Fate?  Destiny?  God? The autonomous psyche
>which knows what It is doing? or daemons who plot our path?  Synchronicity?
>By any name I can see them here.
>
>We have an almost  year old theme here involving the notion that Julienne
>is a victim of various people on the list and sometimes the whole of
>Psyber-L.  Is she a voluntary victim?  Is "help required?"  It has involved
>me investigating threats, and looking at the "legal" aspects of Psyber-l,
>our charters.

Excuse me, Walter - "she"?  Could you please speak to me,
and not just about me? I am right here, I am real flesh and
blood. I am not an experiment, nor a mere mental construct.
However, I think the problem you had with me last year was that
that was forgotten. I have the feeling that if the world ended, or
if blood poured in the streets, Psyber-L would be wondering
what the meaning of it all was instead of bandaging the wounds.

Walter!!!!!!????      ?????   Hullo!!!   ????   ??????? Anyone there?
There is a real person here - not just a cipher on your list!
If I was victimized on this list last year it was because you
didn't stop and get into your feelings for long enough to realize
or care that my parents were dying. *I* was not a victim - but
you were a victimizer. I survived, but no thanks to you - and
your lack of caring made my period of grieving that much
more painful.

>Are we less than human when we walk past someone on the
>sidewalk?

Do you really need to ask this?

> Do we need outside help?

We all need outside help - we are all our brothers'  and
sisters' keepers - or should be. Yes! _ I used that dread
"should" word...

>We have wondered what archetypal structures we are enacting
> and we have come up with gender wars and cat fights, grains of
>sand inside the pearl.  We make efforts to see the big picture.

What's a "cat fight" Walter?

>Then Dolores writes about a slave girl.  Discussion follows:

No - Dolores wrote about a young woman who, if the story
is true, is being held prisoner (illegal), raped and hurt.

How can you romanticize and depersonalize her into
"a slave girl"??????????

>Is help required?  Is it voluntary serfdom?   Who has the power to
>intervene, the right?  Is it a lifestyle choice?  Even if it is, What is
>the legal situation? What are the moral implications?

Oh Walter, give me a break!!!

>Common to both situations is the search for safety, for leadership, for
>autonomy, and in both there is a gender question.

Puhleese! Someone may be killed, and this list is going to
go into a trance to discuss leadership??????

>Dolores, were you aware of the parallels? It is as if you invented the
>story so that we could look at the depths of another ... which of course
>also points to a greater depth. I know hat you did not do that Dolores, but
>how does it happen that light from one story shines on the other?

Walter - do you realize how you are disassociating from reality?
You have split from the reality of what is happening to this girl,
and have slid into an alter who is gazing dispassionately at
what may well is the torturing of  another human being.


>HooN has already spoken of a beautiful symmetry with the gender wars.
>(twin situations?)  Adding to the symmetry is the framing of these
>discussions with the "Patterns of the Soul"  thread and "two approaches
>myth" which both speak about the very phenomena I am describing here.

NO!!!!!  Not a phenomenon!!! Wake up Walter ! A young woman!

>"God is always within and among us, as he is for children. Instead of
>coming down from the skies, he comes in by way of the stage door. God is
>not dead, he is alive in psychodrama!"
>(Moreno, Psychodrama Vol. 3, P22.)

God's on our side?????  If there is a God - he is spitting nails
right now and disgusted.

>May we be able to use the imagination to heal the imagination, as the Sufis
>say. (thanks Hoon).

Walter,

I am sorry, but I just wanted to vomit when I read the piece you
wrote above.

Maybe in some theoretical way there are similarities here,
but only if one is completely divorced from real feeling.

There was no need for me to be a "victim" on here, as
you call me. I didn't come here needing rescuing from the
outside world. My  mother had just died, and my father was
dying. I didn't ask for help with that. Despite the difficulties
of that and all that went along with it all, I was coping. It
was the aggression and hostility and macho and other
attacks on this list which made my life more difficult. You
didn't have to rescue me from any outside world where I
was a victim - you just had to stop victimizing me yourself
by disallowing the threats and aggression of those who
joined in the fray to get out whatever was in their systems
after Dolores's boyfriend's visit here - although it had
probably been there before.

Now - here's another opportunity - much more grave, and we
hear this self-congratulatory tripe about the wonders of the
psychic life of this list.

Well, Walter, when you get to chat with God - if there is
a god - you make sure you tell him what wonderful creative and
brilliant thoughts we all had while a young woman went on being
raped, chained, imprisoned, and having her spirit broken.
And if this is all a game, then it's a sick one.

And, when each of us goes to sleep, first think of how that
young woman is sleeping. Better still, chain yourself to your bed
and sleep that way for a week - and feel what she's feeling -
because if there's such a thing as Karma - be sure you will
one day. And I am going to remoind you every day for a week.

It is this kind of disassociation which allows what seem like
perfectly decent human beings to split off and cheer for wars
and the killings and torturings of millions. This is the
disassociation which allows for Auschwitz, Dresden, yellow
orange in Viet Nam.

Feel what she's feeling.......! Lie there and FEEL HER!!!!

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 05:00:46 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..
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At 02:51 AM 6/26/98 -0500, HooN wrote:

>>I hope though, that we never come to believe in this kind
>>of hopelessly fated destiny - because if that's all there is, we might as
>>well just do anything at all...

>>Julienne

>It's a question for the ages, yes? What is inevitable, what is not? Persons
>have a wide range of beliefs and responses to those beliefs of course. My
>experience of people is that most have a sense of fate but don't let that
>sense order their lives. Then the case is less one of fate but more of
>actualization.
>
>However, my experience also is: no matter what, it is very unusual to find
>somebody is going about their life "doing anything at all".

Pod People...looking to others for signs of what to do and consensus -
with signs to comfort them like flags, badges, ties...

>It's humbling. How terrifying that our existance might not be in the world!

Less terrifying to most than realizing it is...

>What approach could possibly work? (Charles, how does one increase their
>necessity?)

>fragrant laughter?
>
>dancing *completely*?
>
>???

The necessity is already there...we manifest it by waking from our
trances, and loving.

Julienne

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Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:25:55 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: twists of fate and magic

Re: twists of fate and magic


On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:53:26 -0500, sc  wrote:

>Nancy, all,

>I was a fraternal twin; but you go back to the pool of amniotic (sp?) fluid
>and I just see him as my swimming bud, "fellow member of the clan". Also,
>he was bi-polar with affectual complications; devastatingly aware of his
>condition and never sufficiently relieved by the drug regimens and the
>terrible symptoms the regimen itself promoted.
>
>Fate may partly genes; in his part, perhaps a large part; his genes killed
>him, surely.
>
>***
>
>Nancy you beg the question of your own twins...ummm, how much they look alike!
>
N: I'm not sure which question (of the billions I've ask  myself) you feel I've 'begged'.
Rather would I beg  answers and often have, with many then received....yet in each
applicatoin some grain was lost...some grain within whose core was that very answer for
which I'd chaffed my fingers raw upon it crushed glass hull.

sc writes:>Your loved and loving son who is so spirited...damn. Such is our power and
>our powerlessness.

N: Yes.  Damn.  For we deal here with a demon spirit which kills the frailer human
spirit.  Damn

                 Damn      Dawn
      two words               two freight cars
      so similar                 so different
                      in freight


    DAVID


   When David was born.......it was an easy birth......He came willingly into life...
trailing no clouds......of immortality....all kids feel themself immortal ...but David...
my ENF, is always in the moment...where only smiles and action live.  In that
moment...no consequences are.   He believes in the now, the then does not
exist.

   When he was one, crawling in diapers about our Phoenix home, one day
he became entranced with a door stopper on a coil.  With his graceful baby
finger he tweeked it then sat back chortling to watch its bonded spring and
hear its 'bong'.  He watched as it slowed, stopped, stayed.  Then reaching forward
tweeked it once again.  I know not what he thought.  Perhaps that eventually he could
 free the spring to go its separate way unmindful of the door.  I know
not if he thought, or only sat as the 'bong' freed something in him...and
freed again.  Of what is our chortle except an inner freeing?




  At 1 1/2  he found an open can containing kerosene which Auvo had burned after
cleaning paint brushes.  Out of sight in the safely fenced yard, we did not know until he
reappeared with a black circle around his mouth.   We raced to the emergency room
where his stomach was pumped.  But he had attention for none of this.  Only for "Hey
wook!  Wook at the black ghosties!"  St. Mary's was run by nuns.



  At two, he went with us and his older brother, Roger, to Europe. Toddling through its
ancient streets, thumb in mouth, eyes on the cobble stones.  He raised them to gaze in awe
a statue of  himself, he thought,  Manikan Piss,  Chortles rained like fountain drops. In
hotels he went first and often to examine the water closets.  Each worked a little
differently.  It was his job to explore them all.  To feel the chain, watch the swirling water,
hear the creaks and gurgles.  We joked that he would become  a plumber..
  In Copenhaigen he pooped upon a fine upholstered chain in one of their finer restaurants.
His father placed a linen napkin on his hand, then David.  And with
arms outstreched spirited him off to our waiting room.



  In grammar he was ever moving hands, feet, mouth, whole bod..  He made all Cs and
many friends.  His professional sister still remembers how David intervened with the
neighbor bully saying "Not MY sister you don't!"



  At 13 his feet stank.  He was not self-consience.  We laughed and teased saying, "Oh,
please, keep your shoes on!"  "We'll have to leave the room!"
"No!  Not at the table!"



  And now he says "Mom, they think the nerve damage to the base of my skull
may heal in time..., if I don't drink.  But Mom, you don't want to see me now.  I
walk like a pregnant woman.  You don't want to see it."  And then he goes out
for another bottle.
                                 He, too, is bi-polar
                                         Nancy






                         >(It's more than humbling.)
>
>***
>
>             the thread of children comes back around,
>
>                                       HooN
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>



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>
>(It's more than humbling.)
>
>***
>
>the thread of children comes back around,
>
>HooN
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>



at, 27 Jun 1998 05:48:30 GMT, Walter Logeman  wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>I feel a bit awkward about the comment I sent in response to your last post
>... it was meant in good fun and with a touch of admiration, but then
>recall that you have felt "admonished" by me when you first arrived ...
>which was not my intention at all as you probably understand.
-----
N: I thought it was funny.  Your general context is 'I'm ok, You're ok' so IT's ok.
     ...  I think......
     "...drip technique...." ?  Hmmm....  Maybe we better toss for the Jackson Pollack
award.......
     I liked:
> >
> >>
> >>>       amplification ... etc.
> >>
> >
-----
>  I understand
>your mistrust of therapists too ... and share it even though i am one.  I
>appreciate your contributions and I am aquiring a taste for your posts.
-----
N: Like all on the cutting edge, I imagine you 'take some flack' from therapists
unsympathetic to exploration of the Net mode.
.......It's an 'acquired' taste.....?.....//....?  Like bananas?  Like...?
------
>
>Your words i quote below have a poetic quality and lead me to experience a
>desperation only half understood.  I sense that you are drawing on our
>experience here to speak of your life.
>
>> N wrote : I'm not sure which question (of the billions I've ask  myself)
>> you feel I've 'beg'.  Rather would I beg  answers and often have,
>> with many then received....yet in each applicatoin some grain was lost...
>> some grain whichin whose core was that very answer
>> for which I'd chaffed my fingers raw upon it crushed glass hull.
----
N: Mumble, mumble, mumble.......The 'professional writer' in me is less than happy.
------
>Hoon wrote:
>> >Your loved and loving son who is so spirited...damn. Such is our power and
>> >our powerlessness.
>
>And you respond:
>> Yes.  Damn.  For we deal here with a demon spirit which kills the frailer human
>> spirit.  Damn
>>
>>                  Damn      Dawn
>>       two words               two freight cars
>>       so similar                 so different
>>                       in freight
>
>
>Which I find has unforgettable beauty even though I also hear the cry of
>pain.  Which makes me think of the beauty and the pain & sadness I have
>seen & experienced in Psyber-L.
------
N: I forget....It's 'fearful' symmetry......isn't it?  Two generations of 'my patriarchy
'rode the rods' and left those who loved them to ache and wonder.

-------->Walter
>
>
___                                                                                            ~~~~>  Nancy

_______________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 03:31:54 +1200
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From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: twists of fate and magic
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thanks Nancy



>>(It's more than humbling.)
>>
>>***



>>the thread of children comes back around,
>>
>>HooN

Zero Nil

---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
                ( miles )

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Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:06:31 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: dream
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I'll add my thoughts, parallel, perpendicular, whatever they may be...Nancy
sorry I didn't comment right away on your dream after encouraging you to
open it to us, that was leaving you out on a limb and I shouldn't have done
it.

Hello Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>, on Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:50:23
-0600 you wrote:

>Nancy
>
>> c Nancy Smith, 7:17 am  Wed. June 17, 1998
>> a dream fragment (recorded around 9am Sunday, June 14, 1998)

This happened right at the conjunction of Moon and Jupiter in Pisces!
Square the Sun in Gemini.  What's your time zone, Nancy?

Expansion of consciousness, dreams are a Piscean thing, empathy, sympathy,
but also sarcasm and exaggeration, which are brought out by the Jupiter
which rules Pisces.  Squared Sun in Gemini means that facile explanations
may seem at variance with the heart of the dream.  It has an emotional
resonance that is not easily explained or expressed.

>Responding to the dream of another can be done many ways.  The one that
>I feel most comfortable in this medium is that of "resonation"
>
>> I was in the cooking/business area of a small restaurant.  This area was at one end
>> of the room with no walls dividing it from the dining area.  I was trying to tidy up.
>
>In terms of this Psyberspace ... fire, heat, boiling, stirring up of
>contents
>... where are the boundaries? ... contents spilling out onto the those
>who witness the process ... and drawing others into the soup ... and the
>reasoned retreat into rational dialogue brimming with apology ... washed
>in tears

If you can't stand the heat, might be the feeling you're getting, Nancy,
about this list.

>> A man admonished me for not having kept up with the laundry.(1)
>
>... animus activated and demanding logical containment of the messy
>feelings and emotions of the feminine (anima .... this is not in
>reference to males or females but to expressed and/or repressed ways of
>interacting and relating) that run unchecked raising havoc ... desired
>calmness is messed up and needs to be cleaned, sterilized and made neat
>...

I'm thinking more literally of dirty laundry, and no one here has the
energy to keep up with all the dirty laundry that gets aired from time to
time, or any of the stuff that goes on, yet we feel an obligation to keep
some tabs on the progress of everything at first in a new environment.  Who
knows what will be important, unimportant, or in-between?

>> I continued to tidy, sorting the files at my desk, wondering what to leave for my
>> successor. (2)
>
>... reaching into the archives, into the threads of the past which are
>brought forward, trying to find keys that open doors to transformation
>... building a sense of presence in order to build memory ... building
>relation in non-place of psyberspace ...

Will Nancy leave something better in her wake, she may wonder.  Sorting the
files at your desk, Nancy, are you at work sometimes when you read this
list?  Or files and desktop as in the computer screen?

I'm adding, not arguing, Robert; what you wrote is not at odds.

>> Then, turning from tidying, I gathered food on my tray.(3)

Collecting the messages.

>>I and a male companion (4)
>> carried our trays toward the small table area.  We were accompanied by a hostess.(5)
>
>... the wolf and the lamb together ... chaperoned ... (thinking again of
>the recent reunion of male and female here, a reunion which was marked
>with the presence of the feminine (hostess) ...

Nancy and those who feel like new friends here, accompanied by someone who
seems to be a facilitator.

>> magic table which shrank just right for the two of us, yet retained the ability to
>> enlarge to welcome any who might join us.  The sunlight bathed us without overheating
>> or shining in the eyes of either.
>
>... the enlargement and the contraction of dialogues ... democratic ...
>anti-inflationary ... clear sight rather than blindered by projection
>...

I'll go along with Robert wholeheartedly here.

>>   Of the dream I entrust the other, more collective images and symbols to your own
>> competent psyches.  All have their own meaning for me.
>
>Regardless of perceived skill and certificates and diplomas of "others",
>the "self"  is the best judge of a dream's interpretation.  What I
>resonate to in speaking of "your" dream says more about me than it does
>about your dream.  I wonder what it says about me?  How do you resonate
>with my resonance?

I resonate with much of yours, Robert, except for my occasional lapse in
comprehension!

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:18:40 -0700
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From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: help required-once again to GBG...
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Julienne & Joanne, and All.


Recently, I couldn't check my emails for lack of time.
                                Today,
                I began to check from the last one...
                Kennedy--> Julienne-->Joanne.
                I couldn't dare to  check it any more.
                I don't know what was going on.

                                But

                  Whatever begining was/is/will be,

                               After all
"
             "
                        @                          w         w        w
              @ @@                              w omewwga w
            @      @                                w      ww    w
          @alpha@                                 w   w  w  w
             @@@ @@             &                 w        w

                               of Psyber-L

    * JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote: *

       *  zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:*

       * rooted hatred and contempt and disbelief*

                       *diseases of spirit*


         I don't know what to say and how to say.

               If possible, once again to GBG!!

Sad and disappointed mind.

Meeseo.
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Jun 1998 04:24:56 +1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: help required-once again to GBG...
In-Reply-To:  <19980627161840.27518.rocketmail@send1c.yahoomail.com>
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< Meeseo wrote >
>                               of Psyber-L
>
>    * JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote: *
>
>       *  zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:*
>
>       * rooted hatred and contempt and disbelief*
>
>                       *diseases of spirit*
>
>
>         I don't know what to say and how to say.
>
>               If possible, once again to GBG!!
>
>Sad and disappointed mind.
>
>Meeseo.

Figive me for this slightly newbie question
sorta but what happened?

Are all of ya playing the GBG already or
are you still thinking about it?

( aplogies if this has already been dealt with
and i didn't read it )
---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
                ( miles )

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:11:51 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      toward the nature of necessity
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Hoon, all --

Hoon asks me, in his post "Re: [P] help Required.." of Fri, 26 Jun 1998:

> Charles, how does one increase their necessity?

He's referring to a remark I made earlier:

> I'm saying this after a lifetime of putting myself in situations
> where much is demanded and finding that much is given -- in line
> with the Sufi adage "increase your necessity".

This question of how one increases one's necessity is about as humbling a
question as any I can imagine.  I quoted that phrase because it pushes
towards something I have glimpsed, have no grasp on, but am unwilling to
let slide: a sense that the comfortable is not my goal, that easier is not
necessarily better, that the situations I find myself in which I most hate
and would most like to be quickly resolved may be the ones that hold the
best chance of transforming me.

That human transformation is an alchemical process, and takes place in a
crucible.

*

This goes back to an age old question, with which the finest minds and
hearts of humanity have long grappled without coming to a concensus: the
question of theodicy.  Justice and mercy, suffering and compassion -- how
can a compassionate God tolerate suffering?

Hannibal Lecter puts it this way, in Tom Harris' *Silence of the Lambs*:

::  typhoid and swans -- it all comes from the same place

We can believe there is a god, and think him good on account of the swans,
and this may comfort us -- may even be the only comfort we can find
sufficient to make the living, vivid moment bearable -- but this may
require of us that we turn our back on the typhoid, that we repress the
comfort-shattering implications of suffering, that we become a little deaf.

We can disbelieve there is a god, on account of the typhoid, and while this
will do little to assuage the living, vivid moment's potential for human
terror, it may save us from the terror of bliss -- we may shut down our
capacity for wonder and move into the "safety" of the assumption that the
world is a viciously biological place where tooth and claw rule, and one's
only practical obligation is to self defence, followed by aggression,
followed by success.

These are caricatures, no doubt, of the ways so many people become
disbelievers or believers -- but like many caricatures, I think they hint
at underlying truths.

*

What is interesting about this pair of possibilities, which are commonly
thought to be opposites,  is that each of them reduces our capacity for
compassion: "swan based reasoning" because it is blind to suffering,
"typhoid based reasoning" because it is blind to joy.

*

There is another possibility: that typhoid and swans do indeed come from
the same source, that that source is good, and that the nature of goodness
itself is larger than we have imagined.

The implication here is that we would do well to perform a well nigh
impossible task: to revise our notion of goodness away from what suits us
-- from "my side vs the other side" -- from the whole polarity of desire
and aversion, pleasure and pain which is so fundamental to us, toward a
wider inclusiveness.

When we go to the theatre, we do this: the "evil" that is embodied in Lady
M is indeed evil -- and it is good that it is embodied in the play, which
would be bereft of drama without it.  And what this tells me is that we
have, somewhere, the capacity for grasping an inclusive good that goes
beyond the "good / evil" dichotomy, that we can deeply applaud that more
inclusive good for so wonderfully managing the inclusion *when we can stand
back as audience, and know that we are watching a "play"*.

Comes real life, however, and we have little or no capacity to bring that
inclusiveness to bear on the lived, vivid moment.  We are caught up in our
"side" of the drama -- we too are among the players, we too have a "role"
to play.  Hence Shakespeare's "all the world's a stage..."

*

If I am roughly, humbly, very roughly, very approximately correct in this
-- which as I say is a question that has held the greatest hearts and minds
of our species as if transfixed across the centuries -- then the best
models of the real, vivid, lived universe in which we find ourselves are
the "pocket universes" devised out of the juices of the turmoil caused by
their own conflicts between good and evil, mercy and justice, by the poets,
musicians, playwrights, painters and the like.

Models in which the play of good and evil, the *chiaroscuro*, is itself the
beauty.

Beauty, then -- the aesthetic sense -- is not mere pleasure, nor art mere
entertainment.  Beauty is the enlargement of the human aperture, art is a
device for accomplishing this.

*

It is the enlargement of aperture, not the device, which is important here.
And so my answer to Hoon must be, very tentatively, that one way to
increase one's necessity is to enlarge one's sense of chiaroscuro, to love
*beauty* as the embodiment of love.

This requires "distancing", and the distancing brings engagement: this
requires "contemplation", and from contemplation, action arises.  This
requires a "giving" of oneself beyond oneself, indeed a "giving" of oneself
which is largely a "giving up" of oneself.  And -- if you have followed me
thus far -- all other things I might say at this point will similarly be
paradoxes, unless it be:

pray -- by which I mean desire this intensely -- that one may be of service.

*

That's my -- very tentative -- answer.

On the other side of this question and answer, I believe, is joy.  And I
think Hoon knows that, alluded to that in the two prospective answers he
appended to his question.

If I recall correctly, the adage about "increasing one's necessity" comes
originally from Rumi -- a man whose poetry which causes him to be
celebrated to this day as the "Shakespeare" of his own language, and who
founded the Mevlevi order of "whirling" (dancing) dervishes: so when Hoon
goes on to ask:

> fragrant laughter?
>
> dancing *completely*?

I suspect that Hoon is mindful of the source of this particular quotation,
and that his otherwise unexplained remark about "dancing *completely*"
refers to a whirling dance (and by extension the whirling-dance-of-life)
entered into with such abandon that "oneself" is forgotten and a greater
Presence is experienced: a presence whose goodness is beyond our usual
self-imaging distinctions between good and evil, and compassionate in a way
which *includes* the human intolerables, the arising and falling of lives,
of empires, of worlds.

Because that which lacks this capacity to "include" the rising and falling
away of moments, of lives and universes cannot do justice to our lived, so
vivid, experience: and thus cannot "feel with it", cannot compassionately
"comprehend it".  For here "doing justice" and "doing compassion" are at
last one.

And herein is joy beyond "joy".

In all likelihood, I'd guess, Hoon's phrase about "fragrant laughter" has
an equally specific double meaning, and refers to the congenial and
devotion-imbued laughter of the lovers of Love.

Hoon?

With warm regards,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 15:14:58 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: dream/jastrologically speaking

On Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:06:31 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:

>I'll add my thoughts, parallel, perpendicular, whatever they may be...Nancy
>sorry I didn't comment right away on your dream after encouraging you to
>open it to us, that was leaving you out on a limb and I shouldn't have done
>it.
>
>Hello Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>, on Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:50:23
>-0600 you wrote:
>
>>Nancy
>>
>>> c Nancy Smith, 7:17 am  Wed. June 17, 1998
>>> a dream fragment (recorded around 9am Sunday, June 14, 1998)
>
>This happened right at the conjunction of Moon and Jupiter in Pisces!
>Square the Sun in Gemini.  What's your time zone, Nancy?
--------
N: In my several astrology forrays I didn't get frequently into this subtle level of
charting.  Will EDT suffice?
>-------
JoAnne reflects astrologically: >Expansion of consciousness, dreams are a >Piscean thing, empathy, sympathy,
>but also sarcasm and exaggeration, which are brought out by the Jupiter
>which rules Pisces.  Squared Sun in Gemini means that facile explanations
>may seem at variance with the heart of the dream
>.  It has an emotional >resonance that is not easily explained or expressed.
>
>>Responding to the dream of another can be done many ways.  The one that
>>I feel most comfortable in this medium is that of "resonation"
>>
>>> I was in the cooking/business area of a small restaurant.  This area was at one end
>>> of the room with no walls dividing it from the dining area.  I was trying to tidy up.
>>
>>In terms of this Psyberspace ... fire, heat, boiling, stirring up of
>>contents

>>... where are the boundaries? ... contents spilling out onto the those
>>who witness the process ... and drawing others into the soup ... and the
>>reasoned retreat into rational dialogue brimming with apology ... washed
>>in tears
>
>If you can't stand the heat, might be the feeling you're getting, Nancy,
>about this list.
---------
N: No, not at all, Jojo.  I'm not aware of any heat directed at me here...(Well, I'll
except the frantic lashing of Varman, which I more observed than felt.)
.  A mode of behavior from Walter lodged in my psyche hotly.  But the feeling in
the dream was: it isn't hotter than the dining area.  It's time to stop cooking and organizing for the moment and to move out into the communing area.
  The dreams was very clear and simple about that.>
--------
>>> A man admonished me for not having kept up with the laundry.(1)
>>
>>... animus activated and demanding logical containment of the messy
>>feelings and emotions of the feminine (anima .... this is not in
>>reference to males or females but to expressed and/or repressed ways of
>>interacting and relating) that run unchecked raising havoc ... desired
>>calmness is messed up and needs to be cleaned, sterilized and made neat
>>...
>
>I'm thinking more literally of dirty laundry, and no one here has the
>energy to keep up with all the dirty laundry that gets aired from time to
>time, or any of the stuff that goes on, yet we feel an obligation to keep
>some tabs on the progress of everything at first in a new environment.  Who
>knows what will be important, unimportant, or in-between?
------
N: Immediately after waking from the dream I remembered Robert Johnson's
'coaching' in Inner Work.  Going to look in my dirty laundry
basket (a lovely sturdy wicker which glows with shades of wheat and rust.)  I
found  little there except a large white cotton bedpad waiting to be washed
in bleach with accumulated dish clothes.  These were soon returned, tidily
fresh to my linen closet, maybe a total of about 5 minutes real time effort.

>
>>> I continued to tidy, sorting the files at my desk, wondering what to leave for my
>>> successor. (2)
>>
>>... reaching into the archives, into the threads of the past which are
>>brought forward, trying to find keys that open doors to transformation
>>... building a sense of presence in order to build memory ... building
>>relation in non-place of psyberspace ...
>
>Will Nancy leave something better in her wake, she may wonder.  Sorting the
>files at your desk, Nancy, are you at work sometimes when you read this
>list?  Or files and desktop as in the computer screen?
--------
N:: I'm always 'at work', aren't you, Jojo?
-------
>
>I'm adding, not arguing, Robert; what you wrote is not at odds.
>
>>> Then, turning from tidying, I gathered food on my tray.(3)
>
>Collecting the messages.
>
>>>I and a male companion (4)
>>> carried our trays toward the small table area.  We were accompanied by a hostess.(5)
>>
>>... the wolf and the lamb together ... chaperoned ... (thinking again of
>>the recent reunion of male and female here, a reunion which was marked
>>with the presence of the feminine (hostess) ...
>
>Nancy and those who feel like new friends here, accompanied by someone who
>seems to be a facilitator.
>>> magic table which shrank just right for the two of us, yet retained the ability to
>>> enlarge to welcome any who might join us.  The sunlight bathed us without overheating
>>> or shining in the eyes of either.
>>
>>... the enlargement and the contraction of dialogues ... democratic ...
>>anti-inflationary ... clear sight rather than blindered by projection
>>...
>
>I'll go along with Robert wholeheartedly here.
-----
N: And I too, with one caviat:  How can we do better in our effort not, by any act
of our own,  to induce complex possession and its attendent puffiness among participants here?  This is, perhaps the concern uppermost in me at this moment of writing.
-------------->
>>>   Of the dream I entrust the other, more collective images and symbols to your own
>>> competent psyches.  All have their own meaning for me.
>>
>>Regardless of perceived skill and certificates and diplomas of "others",
>>the "self"  is the best judge of a dream's interpretation.  What I
>>resonate to in speaking of "your" dream says more about me than it does
>>about your dream.  I wonder what it says about me?  How do you resonate
>>with my resonance?
>
>I resonate with much of yours, Robert, except for my occasional lapse in
>comprehension!
>
>-JoAnne
>
N: I'm  never one to turn my back on a pure-breed canine (or any other kind,
for that matter!).  Come on to the kitchen
with me, wolf pup.  I'm get you some chicken bits which your mistress sheds the
rest of her armour and tends to her lance and horse.  I think I'll set the grinder to
'exceeding fine' for the fresh all spice to go in our wine coolers.  They should go
well with the salad I'm fixing of iceburg lettuse, a little fresh spinach and sugar
snaps, pecans, chopped apples and dates,  topped with nofat french and blue
cheese dressings.  Oh, and on the side we'll have nofat butter and garlic
 toasted marmit.  Yes you smell them don't you, pup?  They're still quite fresh in
this tight tin where I stored them a couple of weeks ago.  What?  Sure you can
have one.  And here's another for you, Bear.  Now you two run out into the back
 yard to play while we eat our lunch.
    Oh, hi, HooN, can you join us for lunch?  JoAnne's found your runaway horse.
She's out now giving it fresh water and a palmful of oats.  Do you think we need
to remind her to be careful that those windmill vanes don't hit it?

           Nancy,
seating herself
  at the table         _______________________________________________________

______
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:02:12 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: twists of fate and magic

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 03:31:54 +1200, Miles Thompson  wrote:

>thanks Nancy
>-----------
N: For?
1) Making a gramatical ass of myself?
2) Exposing a chunk of the sonly portion of my soul?
3) None of the above but _________?
4) Alll of the above but __________?
---------->
>>>(It's more than humbling.)
>>>
>>>***
>
>>>the thread of children comes back around,
>>>
>>>HooN
>
>Zero Nil
-------
N: My inner virgin salutes you.
  (I will not make a smiley face, I will not....)
>---------------_---------
>           o  | |
> _  _  _      | |  _   ,
>/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
>  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
>                ( miles )
Nancy
glad to be of service

PS From right here, Miles, you signature looks sorta like that snake in B.C. unc.
with his head on a stone after  Ms Rugged Whatserface takes a club to it  Not Me!  Not You!  Must be Puters....

 Oh, yah.....No GBG agreed on yet, though the onward cheers are surging
 again today.  We miss you when your away, but if such must be...I think you
can depend on Charles' GBG subject headings to update you..

>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 07:43:13 -1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: help required-once again to GBG...
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Hi Miles

My computer was out of action for a week, new hard disk plus reinstallation
and configuration of everything blah blah, so likewise missed whether GBG
got underway.

I think it's just on hold while Charles and Walter finalise the details.

Barry
_________________________________
Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 08:04:06 -1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: TRIPE!!!!!!!
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Hello Julienne

Not so fast, please !  I am a relative newcomer to lists, but it seems to
me that in joining a list we understand and accept that our posts once
posted are 'public' to the list and can therefore be discussed by list
members, especially as they relate to the ethos and purpose of the list.

Likewise, we can direct our posts to another list member or to the whole
list.  I think it's absolutely reasonable for any one of us to be talked to
or about on the list.  So I think it's fine for Walter or any of us to talk
to or about other list members in our posts.  I see it all the time here.

I hesitate to write this because I rather fear you will take this too
personally.  I think you over-react to Walter's posts to you or about you.
Walter (or anyone else here) may have some observation about my
contributions or the tone and character of my contributions.  So be it.
Them's the  breaks, and I may learn something about myself.

There is a deep caring on this list.  I care about you, and in fact see
something of a kindred spirit in you.  I also care about the young woman
who may be in serious trouble, and hope this is cleared up soon.  And I
remain interested in the broader aims and discussions on the list.

I think you go too far with posts like this.  I do not think Walter has
trivialised you or used you experimentally.

Barry
_________________________________
Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

----------
> From: Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
> To: PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> Subject: Re: [P] TRIPE!!!!!!!
> Date: Friday, June 26, 1998 7:10 PM
>
> >All,
> >
> >What is at work in our lives?  Fate?  Destiny?  God? The autonomous
psyche
> >which knows what It is doing? or daemons who plot our path?
Synchronicity?
> >By any name I can see them here.
> >
> >We have an almost  year old theme here involving the notion that
Julienne
> >is a victim of various people on the list and sometimes the whole of
> >Psyber-L.  Is she a voluntary victim?  Is "help required?"  It has
involved
> >me investigating threats, and looking at the "legal" aspects of
Psyber-l,
> >our charters.
>
> Excuse me, Walter - "she"?  Could you please speak to me,
> and not just about me? I am right here, I am real flesh and
> blood. I am not an experiment, nor a mere mental construct.
> However, I think the problem you had with me last year was that
> that was forgotten. I have the feeling that if the world ended, or
> if blood poured in the streets, Psyber-L would be wondering
> what the meaning of it all was instead of bandaging the wounds.
>
> Walter!!!!!!????      ?????   Hullo!!!   ????   ??????? Anyone there?
> There is a real person here - not just a cipher on your list!
> If I was victimized on this list last year it was because you
> didn't stop and get into your feelings for long enough to realize
> or care that my parents were dying. *I* was not a victim - but
> you were a victimizer. I survived, but no thanks to you - and
> your lack of caring made my period of grieving that much
> more painful.
>
> >Are we less than human when we walk past someone on the
> >sidewalk?
>
> Do you really need to ask this?
>
> > Do we need outside help?
>
> We all need outside help - we are all our brothers'  and
> sisters' keepers - or should be. Yes! _ I used that dread
> "should" word...
>
> >We have wondered what archetypal structures we are enacting
> > and we have come up with gender wars and cat fights, grains of
> >sand inside the pearl.  We make efforts to see the big picture.
>
> What's a "cat fight" Walter?
>
> >Then Dolores writes about a slave girl.  Discussion follows:
>
> No - Dolores wrote about a young woman who, if the story
> is true, is being held prisoner (illegal), raped and hurt.
>
> How can you romanticize and depersonalize her into
> "a slave girl"??????????
>
> >Is help required?  Is it voluntary serfdom?   Who has the power to
> >intervene, the right?  Is it a lifestyle choice?  Even if it is, What is
> >the legal situation? What are the moral implications?
>
> Oh Walter, give me a break!!!
>
> >Common to both situations is the search for safety, for leadership, for
> >autonomy, and in both there is a gender question.
>
> Puhleese! Someone may be killed, and this list is going to
> go into a trance to discuss leadership??????
>
> >Dolores, were you aware of the parallels? It is as if you invented the
> >story so that we could look at the depths of another ... which of course
> >also points to a greater depth. I know hat you did not do that Dolores,
but
> >how does it happen that light from one story shines on the other?
>
> Walter - do you realize how you are disassociating from reality?
> You have split from the reality of what is happening to this girl,
> and have slid into an alter who is gazing dispassionately at
> what may well is the torturing of  another human being.
>
>
> >HooN has already spoken of a beautiful symmetry with the gender wars.
> >(twin situations?)  Adding to the symmetry is the framing of these
> >discussions with the "Patterns of the Soul"  thread and "two approaches
> >myth" which both speak about the very phenomena I am describing here.
>
> NO!!!!!  Not a phenomenon!!! Wake up Walter ! A young woman!
>
> >"God is always within and among us, as he is for children. Instead of
> >coming down from the skies, he comes in by way of the stage door. God is
> >not dead, he is alive in psychodrama!"
> >(Moreno, Psychodrama Vol. 3, P22.)
>
> God's on our side?????  If there is a God - he is spitting nails
> right now and disgusted.
>
> >May we be able to use the imagination to heal the imagination, as the
Sufis
> >say. (thanks Hoon).
>
> Walter,
>
> I am sorry, but I just wanted to vomit when I read the piece you
> wrote above.
>
> Maybe in some theoretical way there are similarities here,
> but only if one is completely divorced from real feeling.
>
> There was no need for me to be a "victim" on here, as
> you call me. I didn't come here needing rescuing from the
> outside world. My  mother had just died, and my father was
> dying. I didn't ask for help with that. Despite the difficulties
> of that and all that went along with it all, I was coping. It
> was the aggression and hostility and macho and other
> attacks on this list which made my life more difficult. You
> didn't have to rescue me from any outside world where I
> was a victim - you just had to stop victimizing me yourself
> by disallowing the threats and aggression of those who
> joined in the fray to get out whatever was in their systems
> after Dolores's boyfriend's visit here - although it had
> probably been there before.
>
> Now - here's another opportunity - much more grave, and we
> hear this self-congratulatory tripe about the wonders of the
> psychic life of this list.
>
> Well, Walter, when you get to chat with God - if there is
> a god - you make sure you tell him what wonderful creative and
> brilliant thoughts we all had while a young woman went on being
> raped, chained, imprisoned, and having her spirit broken.
> And if this is all a game, then it's a sick one.
>
> And, when each of us goes to sleep, first think of how that
> young woman is sleeping. Better still, chain yourself to your bed
> and sleep that way for a week - and feel what she's feeling -
> because if there's such a thing as Karma - be sure you will
> one day. And I am going to remoind you every day for a week.
>
> It is this kind of disassociation which allows what seem like
> perfectly decent human beings to split off and cheer for wars
> and the killings and torturings of millions. This is the
> disassociation which allows for Auschwitz, Dresden, yellow
> orange in Viet Nam.
>
> Feel what she's feeling.......! Lie there and FEEL HER!!!!
>
> Julienne
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:52:16 +0300
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Vs: [P] Vs: [P] twists of fate and magic
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Julienne  writes about humor:
       "So many comedians are Capricorn. When things are at their worst,
        there's nowhere to go but mad, off the bridge, or to look at the
funny
        side of things for release.  Look at how we sometimes get the
giggles
        when we hear someone has died."

To  my mind  it is not  humor, but  a pain reaction, mostly.  Julienne, my
grandmother was not a comedian, nor  Capricorn,  she only had  sense  of
property.  I  see her as a positive  role model, how  a woman  can  go
through the hell  without losing  herself.  My  second grandmother had
Capricornian  dry and  sarcastic humor, she was not Capricorn,  either. She
lived protected life,  no disasters until my  mother died too young ( she
was  in her forties). After her death she  changed more
warm and human. Before. She had been quite hard  and  condemnatory.

But let's talk more actual topics, let's talk  about " The Beautiful
symmetry "

 Cheers Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:15:18 +0300
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Vs: [P] A beautiful symmetry
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To  those interested in  myths.

Walter writes about  parallels, how  light from one  story  shines on the
other story. When I read  Dolores' rapport of the  "the slave-girl" , it
struck me that  the girl lives  like  Psyche, who "was kept a close captive
within the walls  of her luxurious prison and deprived  of all human
conversation.  She might not even bring  consolation to  her sisters.  Eros
 warned her again and again with  words that struck terror to the soul,
never to let her sisters persuade her by their ill counsels to inquire what
her husband was like", as  Apuleus tells.  All days long she was alone, and
heard only disembodied voices. By  night Eros came  and made love with her
in the darkness and departed  in haste before the dawn.  By days  she wept
floods of tears, but nevertheless  she said to Eros:" Sooner would I die  a
hundred deaths than be robbed of your sweet love. For  whoever you are, I
love you and adore you passionately".  All others - her parents, her
sisters - knew that  her husband was a monster-dragon, because the  oracle
had said so.  She  didn't  choose voluntarly her destiny.  Perhaps  "the
slave-girl" didn't  choose, either.  The Soul-making love  seems often  be
compulsive and folly  "  If a fool would  persist in his folly, he  would
become wise", as   William Blake put it. I think that James Hillman, too,
wrote  something about  compulsive love in "Myth of Analysis."   It is one
way to psychological transformation. ´Tthe old teaching says that you must
never help  a  butterfly (= Psyche) out of  the chrysalis.  I have some
experience  of  the chrysalis- state, and  folly love too.  Both   was
absolute  necessary  and  terrible  states in my  writer's  way.
     The old myths are living in us, and  we  are living them, because they
are "unconscious representations of   the  crucial life situations, and
one  of the reasons
why myths are so   significant for us is that  we  can  read  the true
experiences of mankind in these confessions unobscured by consciousness",
as Eric Neumann  says in  his book "Amor and  Psyche".
      I  read  old myths  trough myself,  in the same way as  I  read
poetry and novels. I never  remember plots, outer  events and situations,
and names of  the characters, but  I remember  images charged  with energy
and emotion. I'm not a pattern-maker, nor a story-maker. That's why  I
can't  recall  patterns and  stories.  I don't know  what I am. But  it no
more worry me.

Best wishes
Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:29:31 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: TRIPE!!!!!!!
In-Reply-To:  <199806272007.IAA28072@cyclops.xtra.co.nz>
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At 08:04 AM 6/28/98 -1200, Barry wrote:
>Hello Julienne
>
>Not so fast, please !  I am a relative newcomer to lists, but it seems to
>me that in joining a list we understand and accept that our posts once
>posted are 'public' to the list and can therefore be discussed by list
>members, especially as they relate to the ethos and purpose of the list.

Hi Barry,

No problem - such is understood.

>Likewise, we can direct our posts to another list member or to the whole
>list.  I think it's absolutely reasonable for any one of us to be talked to
>or about on the list.  So I think it's fine for Walter or any of us to talk
>to or about other list members in our posts.  I see it all the time here.

Agreed. Did you think I had a problem with that? Are you referring to where
I felt Walter was speaking as though I didn't exist? That I think is a problem
with Walter.

>I hesitate to write this because I rather fear you will take this too
>personally.  I think you over-react to Walter's posts to you or about you.
>Walter (or anyone else here) may have some observation about my
>contributions or the tone and character of my contributions.  So be it.
>Them's the  breaks, and I may learn something about myself.

No...not taking it "too" personally. :) And them's the breaks for
Walter this time...?

>There is a deep caring on this list.  I care about you, and in fact see
>something of a kindred spirit in you.  I also care about the young woman
>who may be in serious trouble, and hope this is cleared up soon.  And I
>remain interested in the broader aims and discussions on the list.

I feel some kindred spiritship with you also...:)
However, I do not think there is any universal deep caring
about each other on this list. That I have yet to see. I saw it
in Hoon's post to me - (several of them), and I see your caring
for your friend, Walter, here. But I don't see it as a whole on this list.

>I think you go too far with posts like this.  I do not think Walter has
>trivialised you or used you experimentally.

Well, here we disagree. I feel Walter does not really feel people...
I felt, for my own sake, that I had to make a very strong statement in
hopes that Walter might hear. Do I think he will? No... I think Walter
thinks just nice thoughts are all that's necessary.

I appreciate your effort to mediate here, Barry. But I really needed
to say this to Walter.

Love,

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:34:29 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Vs: [P] Vs: [P] twists of fate and magic
In-Reply-To:  <199806272020.XAA11645@walrus.megabaud.fi>
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At 08:52 PM 6/27/98 +0300, Anita wrote:
>Julienne  writes about humor:
>       "So many comedians are Capricorn. When things are at their worst,
>        there's nowhere to go but mad, off the bridge, or to look at the
>funny
>        side of things for release.  Look at how we sometimes get the
>giggles
>        when we hear someone has died."
>
>To  my mind  it is not  humor, but  a pain reaction, mostly.

Exactly. The basis of most humour is pain - was what I was saying.

 Julienne, my
>grandmother was not a comedian, nor  Capricorn,  she only had  sense  of
>property.  I  see her as a positive  role model, how  a woman  can  go
>through the hell  without losing  herself.  My  second grandmother had
>Capricornian  dry and  sarcastic humor, she was not Capricorn,  either.

Capricorn humour is not always dry and sarcastic... As to whether
she was Capricorn, you would not know unless you knew her whole chart.
One does not have to be born under the sign of Capricorn to have a lot
of Saturn/Capricorn characteristics in the chart.

>She
>lived protected life,  no disasters until my  mother died too young ( she
>was  in her forties). After her death she  changed more
>warm and human. Before. She had been quite hard  and  condemnatory.

>But let's talk more actual topics, let's talk  about " The Beautiful
>symmetry "

?

Think I was just dismissed. :)

?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 16:45:07 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Vs: [P] A beautiful symmetry
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At 11:15 PM 6/27/98 +0300, Anita wrote:
>To  those interested in  myths.
>
>Walter writes about  parallels, how  light from one  story  shines on the
>other story.

But in this case maybe the shadow stopped us from seeing the situation
in the light.

 When I read  Dolores' rapport of the  "the slave-girl" ,=20

She is not a "slave-girl" - but now two people on this list are
romanticizing and distancing her reality. She is not a beautiful
"slave-girl" in a beautiful and meaningful myth - but a suffering
human being.

>it struck me that  the girl lives like  Psyche, who "was kept a close=
 captive
>within the walls  of her luxurious prison and deprived  of all human
>conversation.=20

No. Psyche was a story. This young girl is real. ( I am assuming...)

> She might not even bring  consolation to  her sisters.  Eros
> warned her again and again with  words that struck terror to the soul,
>never to let her sisters persuade her by their ill counsels to inquire what
>her husband was like", as  Apuleus tells.  All days long she was alone, and
>heard only disembodied voices. By  night Eros came  and made love with her
>in the darkness and departed  in haste before the dawn.  By days  she wept
>floods of tears, but nevertheless  she said to Eros:" Sooner would I die  a
>hundred deaths than be robbed of your sweet love. For  whoever you are, I
>love you and adore you passionately".  All others - her parents, her
>sisters - knew that  her husband was a monster-dragon, because the  oracle
>had said so.  She  didn't  choose voluntarly her destiny.  Perhaps  "the
>slave-girl" didn't  choose, either.  The Soul-making love  seems often  be
>compulsive and folly  "  If a fool would  persist in his folly, he  would
>become wise", as   William Blake put it. I think that James Hillman, too,
>wrote  something about  compulsive love in "Myth of Analysis."   It is one
>way to psychological transformation.=20

Most "love" is compulsive love, until we awaken and become
conscious, and can see another human being for whom s/he is,
instead of the programming of our brain and neurons from our
childhood relationships, starting prenatally.

>=B4Tthe old teaching says that you must
>never help  a  butterfly (=3D Psyche) out of  the chrysalis.  I have some
>experience  of  the chrysalis- state, and  folly love too.  Both   was
>absolute  necessary  and  terrible  states in my  writer's  way.
>     The old myths are living in us, and  we  are living them, because they
>are "unconscious representations of   the  crucial life situations, and
>one  of the reasons
>why myths are so   significant for us is that  we  can  read  the true
>experiences of mankind in these confessions unobscured by consciousness",
>as Eric Neumann  says in  his book "Amor and  Psyche".
>      I  read  old myths  trough myself,  in the same way as  I  read
>poetry and novels. I never  remember plots, outer  events and situations,
>and names of  the characters, but  I remember  images charged  with energy
>and emotion. I'm not a pattern-maker, nor a story-maker. That's why  I
>can't  recall  patterns and  stories.  I don't know  what I am. But  it no
>more worry me.

And there are myths of incest, of blinding, of death - but this young
woman, we are told, is a real life human being.

If you have a daughter, Anita, and sometime she is in danger, will you
be consoled to know that, instead of investigating to help her, your
friends told tales of myths and giants to console and entertain themselves?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 18:12:09 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: twists of fate and magic...Re: daddy
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My father used to look at me intently and recite:

             There was a little girl
          And she had a little curl
  Right in the middle of her forehead
            When she was good
         She was very, very good
           But when she was bad....
                 She was horrid!


                           I
                       WILL
                do a smiley face

(Though Isis only knows how it will
                     turn out!)

                      \\      //
                         \\ //
                           \/


                          ???
                     ????????
                   ??????????
                   ?       ?      ?
                  ??   --  --   ??
                 ??      i       ??
                   ?  \  `-=92  /  ?
                 ?  \   ``=92=92   / ??
              ? ?   \        /  ??
             ?  ?     \     /   ??  ?
         ?     ?        @     ??    ?
          ?      ?                 ?  ?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:03:45 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980627003237.011d2880@postoffice.att.net>
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Julienne, if the situation is so severe, so life-threatening, what the HELL
are you doing about it?  All I see is that you are telling Walter he's
acting inhuman and detached by not acting.

You're doing NOTHING too.  NOTHING AT ALL except arguing that this is an
emergency.  You're doing no more than Walter is doing.  You're no better
than he is when the rubber hits the road.

What action could Walter possibly take that you couldn't?  How is he more
powerful than you?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:44:30 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Some subjects, mostly Julienne.
In-Reply-To:  <19980627204542.KWBW87@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Julienne,

You are not listening to me.
She is in no danger, she wants to be there. The Mythical story Anita wrote,
is in essence her situation, especialy

All days long she was alone, and
heard only disembodied voices. By  night Eros came  and made love with her
in the darkness and departed  in haste before the dawn.  By days  she wept
floods of tears, but nevertheless  she said to Eros:" Sooner would I die  a
hundred deaths than be robbed of your sweet love. For  whoever you are, I
love you and adore you passionately".  All others - her parents, her
sisters - knew that  her husband was a monster-dragon, because the  oracle
had said so.  She  didn't  choose voluntarly her destiny.  Perhaps  "the
slave-girl" didn't  choose, either.  The Soul-making love  seems often  be
compulsive and folly  "  If a fool would  persist in his folly, he  would
become wise", as   William Blake put it. I think that James Hillman, too,
wrote  something about  compulsive love in "Myth of Analysis."

I'd rather apply that to the situation than that trite load of gobblediook
self righteous banality as quoted by someone somewhere about god and
children and accredited to somebody called Moreno.

What a tosser! I would love to meet his pompous ass any day.

What Anita wrote is accurate. What I wrote is accurate in my assessment of
the situation. You have to accept that for whatever reasons  some people
would rather be naked under the stairs in the dark than sat at a 9-5 job
all day. I have now accepted this fact, hard as it is to swallow.

You would be better off sticking five dollars in an envelope and mailing it
to the kids in the Sudan than trying to help Maya (her name). She would be
offende btw, if you refered to her as anything other than slave girl, or
pet. Its the appellation of her choice.

And yes it makes me cringe, and yes I'd like to slap her silly, but no, I
would rather send the five dollars, because any help I gave there would
actually be of some benefit.

For whatever reason she has chosen to live like this, whatever screwed up
product of her childhood etc. she now is, she is acting of her own free
will. Rather ironic when you consider her slave girl status. It is extreme
BSDM, but in my travels I heard a lot worse. One policeman told me..never
mind, even to think about that makes me ill. It involves non free will and
children.

I'd like to suggest you go to #submission, and spend an hour there, I found
it - most illuminating. I'll say nothing more on that, but go there, draw
your own conclusions. I'd like to hear what you thought.

This is a sick planet sometimes, makes me wish we'd all get atomised and
leave only the animals and trees. Mans contribution to the planet is zero.
Mans contribution to Man in the interests of self is revoltingly high in
comparison to anything we have ever done for the world beneath our feet.

I hope something virulant wipes us all out eventually. We deserve it.


Love


Dolores.

P.S. The legal aspect of this is fascinating, but I still haven't found an
answer to wether voluntarily enslaving of oneself, is an actual felony etc.
According to the Police it isn't. Unless that person is somewhat gaga, but
how do you gauge that?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:06:44 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
In-Reply-To:  <35a8759b.673911679@mail.qis.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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JoAnne,

>You're doing NOTHING too.

I don't comprehend how you can tell what Julienne is, or is not doing, from
the emails she's been writing, except as that doing or not doing may regard
her writing email.

Seems an illogical leap to be so sure she is doing nothing. How do you know?

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:15:47 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: A beautiful symmetry
In-Reply-To:  <359429df.84229521@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Walter,

Your post strikes me as being on the order of *meta-commentary* and, not
surprisingly, its terms are depersonalized. I feel about your intention,
which is partly to recapitulate and also sense the pattern(s).

Patterns which do seem to arrive again and again. Charles today has raised
the issue of their 'beauty' as a matter of their potential fullness; (my
grokking).

***

The *notional* is a very difficult notion!

Applying it to each other also may be or at least seem to be a
depersonalization. But, then, you wrote, and I paraphrase,

"God comes in by way of the stage door"

That's a keeper.

It cannot be *entirely* personal. But this will be frustrating for anybody
who sees the personal everywhere and frustrating for anybody who sees the
personal nowhere.

***

regards,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:43:44 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: toward the nature of necessity
In-Reply-To:  <l03130300b1bae473fef9@[38.12.87.188]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Charles,

Your response was wonderful but I'm off to other activities shortly. Will
respond soon. (Have you ever read the Sura, The Pen?)

***

>If I recall correctly, the adage about "increasing one's necessity" comes
>originally from Rumi [snip]

It is said 'nothing original comes from Rumi"! Rabia: 'Steal from me what
steals me from you'. How to shrink the distance to a point? To make
necessity so close, only a point is interposed? True, yes: the widest
circle also...the absolute beauty of the circle.

***

>In all likelihood, I'd guess, Hoon's phrase about "fragrant laughter" has
>an equally specific double meaning, and refers to the congenial and
>devotion-imbued laughter of the lovers of Love.
>
>Hoon?

Or, I didn't want to copy _Delicious Laughter_ from a book of translations
by Coleman Barks of parts of the Mathnawi. (It's my wooly persona acting
up; luckily, fragrant is different than delicious.) :-)

***

Fragrance: directly connected, ultimate refinement and subtlety, 'mystic'
apprehension,; a sign of knowing knowing (which is a way of describing the
deeply feminine awareness) and, certainty. Above all, a sign fo being at
the location of the goal, "in paradise".

...not able to be adequately described by words, refined beyond the verbal;
fragrance is subtle but direct, like the very slightest pin prick.

Charles, tell me about the pinnacle of your experience of a garden; what it
was your nose told you! (My intuition tells me there are some fantastic
'garden' experiences out there.

***

Fragrance : Devotion

Lovers : Essence

Knowing : Laughter

Garden : Point

***

good game!

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:39:47 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
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Dear Hoon,

Lets assume Julienne is doing nothing, because she's not in the position to
do anything since she has about as much information as to the location of
this girl as I do.

I think we can assmume that Jo made that assumption with about a 99.9%
recurring chance that it was a correct guess, in the light of the fact that
nobody, myself included knows where said girl lives, except the state she
resides in.

I find it interesting Hoon, that your jumping in on your white charger to
tackle dragon Joanne, when I don't see Julienne asking you to, and
secondly, Julienne seems adequatly equipped with her own lance and spurs.

Love

Dolores

Who believes women are capable of fighting their own battles without the
intervention of White Knights. As a woman I find it patronising that you
feel the need to jump to the defence of either of them, or in this case one
of them. Especially since both are admirable equipped to tear each other to
shreds as and when they feel the need - In case you hadn't noticed.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:09:51 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
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>I find it interesting Hoon, that your jumping in on your white charger to
>tackle dragon Joanne, when I don't see Julienne asking you to, and
>secondly, Julienne seems adequatly equipped with her own lance and spurs.
>
>Love
>
>Dolores


Whatever...

I'll continue to post as I see fit. My post stands, Dolores, and not as
anything to do with an attempt to tackle JoAnne. If you think it is
patronizing of me to respond to JoAnne's post in the way I did, I'm edified
now as to your interpretation.

Projections amuse me, mine, as well as yours.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:58:50 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
In-Reply-To:  <v04011705b1bb5586e423@[207.54.160.208]>
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>I'll continue to post as I see fit. My post stands, Dolores, and not as
>anything to do with an attempt to tackle JoAnne. If you think it is
>patronizing of me to respond to JoAnne's post in the way I did, I'm edified
>now as to your interpretation.
>
>Projections amuse me, mine, as well as yours.

As my mother used to say...Little Things please little Minds.


And when did I attempt censorship?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:23:05 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Some subjects, mostly Julienne.
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Dolores,

>According to the Police it isn't. Unless that person is somewhat gaga, but
>how do you gauge that?
>

This is about as big a conundrum as judging a person as being "not gaga".
Which you seem to have done in the case of dear slavegirl (who probably is
gaga enough for you to have written this about her:

"I asked her if there was a fire that very second, if she knew what
the provision would be, and she said no, she'd probably burn.")

***

If slavegirl is a real person who is undergoing the experiences you've
described, you've preached a fundamental attitude, "It's her choice," and
something along the line of 'it's a sick world' but, in slave girl's case,

"For whatever reason she has chosen to live like this, whatever screwed up
product of her childhood etc. she now is, she is acting of her own free
will."

***

gaga, not-gaga, free will, not free will...

Dolores, how do *you* tell the difference?

***

(I'm hoping slavegirl's house doesn't burn down; I don't think she'd enjoy
that.)

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:09:14 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980628013947.007bde70@easynet.co.uk>
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At 01:39 AM 6/28/98 +0100, Dolores wrote:
>Dear Hoon,
>
>Lets assume Julienne is doing nothing, because she's not in the position to
>do anything since she has about as much information as to the location of
>this girl as I do.

Why would you assume that? I think every single one of us is
absolutely in the position to do something.

>I think we can assmume that Jo made that assumption with about a 99.9%
>recurring chance that it was a correct guess, in the light of the fact that
>nobody, myself included knows where said girl lives, except the state she
>resides in.

A guess rarely has a 99.9% chance of being correct. Those of us who are
logical and reasoning and objective know that. <g>

>I find it interesting Hoon, that your jumping in on your white charger to
>tackle dragon Joanne, when I don't see Julienne asking you to, and
>secondly, Julienne seems adequatly equipped with her own lance and spurs.

HooN, on behalf of protocol, I hereby invite you, and anyone else
on this list, to jump on your white or black or spotted charger, or whatever
is at hand, to tackle any dragons a-scaring me, because I am no more
equipped than
anyone else to always defend myself adequately - and have done such a
pitiful job
of it this past year that I am still hurting - and you are all welcome to
do it for
me at any time, without any specific invitation whatsoever.  And I will be
most grateful, and will
certainly do it for any others when I feel it is right, unless you
specifically tell me you
don't want me to.

>Who believes women are capable of fighting their own battles without the
>intervention of White Knights. As a woman I find it patronising that you
>feel the need to jump to the defence of either of them, or in this case one
>of them. Especially since both are admirable equipped to tear each other to
>shreds as and when they feel the need - In case you hadn't noticed.

First, I do not accept that I attacked JoAnne the way she attacked me. I
was not the protagonist, and I am sure if you got anyone from outside
to read it all through (what a waste of lifetime) that it would not look
like just
a quid pro quo.

Second, are we back on gender wars? Did HooN only do this because I am
a woman and he is a man?  Are men only allowed to defend men, and
women defend women, in DoloresWorld?

I have to say I am getting a wonderful giggle out of this. First of all,
because
it does feel all warm and cuddly to be defended - makes me feel much
safer in the world. But also because I am wondering where you were when
I was attacked???? How come it was all right for you and Anita and JoAnne
and Wilbur to shred me to pieces while Walter stood absently by, without
anyone objecting, but suddenly there are objections when I'm being
DEFENDED???? Ola!!!

What's wrong with picture? Could some be happier with aggression
than kindness?

Well, I'm going back to my little nest to purr for a while. :):):):):)

Love to All,

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:31:46 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
In-Reply-To:  <19980628011350.NBPR87@default>
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>A guess rarely has a 99.9% chance of being correct. Those of us who are
>logical and reasoning and objective know that. <g>

I guess I'll be dead within 90 years. Correct, not 99.9% correct..but 100%.
Logical, reasoning, objective..hmm, I'd rather die of boredom.


>HooN, on behalf of protocol, I hereby invite you, and anyone else
>on this list, to jump on your white or black or spotted charger, or whatever
>is at hand, to tackle any dragons a-scaring me, because I am no more
>equipped than
>anyone else to always defend myself adequately - and have done such a
>pitiful job
>of it this past year that I am still hurting - and you are all welcome to
>do it for
>me at any time, without any specific invitation whatsoever.  And I will be
>most grateful, and will
>certainly do it for any others when I feel it is right, unless you
>specifically tell me you
>don't want me to.

Oh woe is me.
Its a shame your so ill equipped, but I see that in your case your adhering
to the old adage that, Practice makes Perfect.


>>Who believes women are capable of fighting their own battles without the
>>intervention of White Knights. As a woman I find it patronising that you
>>feel the need to jump to the defence of either of them, or in this case one
>>of them. Especially since both are admirable equipped to tear each other to
>>shreds as and when they feel the need - In case you hadn't noticed.
>
>First, I do not accept that I attacked JoAnne the way she attacked me. I
>was not the protagonist, and I am sure if you got anyone from outside
>to read it all through (what a waste of lifetime) that it would not look
>like just
>a quid pro quo.

I might consider a waste of a lifetime would be the endless tooing and
froing and she said, he said, or in this case, she said, she said. And I
never did this, and she said I did and...



>Second, are we back on gender wars? Did HooN only do this because I am
>a woman and he is a man?  Are men only allowed to defend men, and
>women defend women, in DoloresWorld?

In Dolores world I'd have slung you off the list ages ago, but this is Walt
world. In Dolores world everybody fights their own battles and nobody sits
on the fence. Dolores world however is my world and

>I have to say I am getting a wonderful giggle out of this. First of all,
>because
>it does feel all warm and cuddly to be defended - makes me feel much
>safer in the world.

Lovely, a sentiment every feminist in Dolores World would be proud to hear.


 But also because I am wondering where you were when
>I was attacked???? How come it was all right for you and Anita and JoAnne
>and Wilbur to shred me to pieces while Walter stood absently by, without
>anyone objecting, but suddenly there are objections when I'm being
>DEFENDED???? Ola!!!

Point out one email where I shredded you to pieces? I lay off shredding
people to pieces because there is a nasty streak in me thats not tempered
by civilised prose or intelligent arguement, but rather at stating things
as they are. I think you might not like to see that, but then again, tempt
me and you never know what might happen. Won't be able to resist that one
will you Julienne?


>What's wrong with picture? Could some be happier with aggression
>than kindness?

I would reply..but I' am not going to. Because I've learnt the meaning of
restraint.

>Well, I'm going back to my little nest to purr for a while. :):):):):)
>
And I leave my nest to go sharpen my talons

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:41:44 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: twists of fate and magic...Re: daddy
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At 06:12 PM 6/27/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>My father used to look at me intently and recite:
>
>             There was a little girl
>          And she had a little curl
>  Right in the middle of her forehead
>            When she was good
>         She was very, very good
>           But when she was bad....
>                 She was horrid!

How sad that this was done to so many little girls...

Love

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:43:30 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Some subjects, mostly Julienne.
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>Which you seem to have done in the case of dear slavegirl (who probably is
>gaga enough for you to have written this about her:

>"I asked her if there was a fire that very second, if she knew what
>the provision would be, and she said no, she'd probably burn.")

Presumably the risk of fire is greatest when he's pouring the hot wax on
her nipples, in which case let us hope he has the key to her cuffs near at
hand. She doesn't want to help herself, until she reaches that choice, and
who am I to say she needs help or not, because she's not acting within
acceptable norms, dose that make them wrong because they are not my
normality, who am I to judge anothers normality?

What is the criteria for insanity? Isn't it absence of self awareness?


>If slavegirl is a real person who is undergoing the experiences you've
>described, you've preached a fundamental attitude, "It's her choice," and
>something along the line of 'it's a sick world' but, in slave girl's case,
>
>"For whatever reason she has chosen to live like this, whatever screwed up
>product of her childhood etc. she now is, she is acting of her own free
>will."

I stand by this assessment. Presumably you'd be certifying her as the
National Guard arrived at the door.

>gaga, not-gaga, free will, not free will...
>
>Dolores, how do *you* tell the difference?

I don't presume to be arrogant enough to define what is normal. Therefore I
can only make a decision based on what I see, and that is now, on revision,
somebody who is blissfully happy being chained and god knows what else of
her OWN FREE WILL.


>(I'm hoping slavegirl's house doesn't burn down; I don't think she'd enjoy
>that.)
>
>***
>
>HooN


Who in their right mind would? Of course I fitted fire alarms, but when the
batteries ran out, I haven't bothered to replace them. Irresponsible maybe
but does that mean I'm abnormal? insane? Gaga? (Apparently only if I am
tied to the bed, or in a cage under the stairs at the time said fire occurs.)

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>
>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:22:08 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
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At 02:31 AM 6/28/98 +0100, Dolores wrote:

Julienne wrote:

>>A guess rarely has a 99.9% chance of being correct. Those of us who are
>>logical and reasoning and objective know that. <g>
>
>I guess I'll be dead within 90 years. Correct, not 99.9% correct..but 100%.
>Logical, reasoning, objective..hmm, I'd rather die of boredom.

Then you probably will.

However, to topic: there's your .01%!

>>HooN, on behalf of protocol, I hereby invite you, and anyone else
>>on this list, to jump on your white or black or spotted charger, or whatever
>>is at hand, to tackle any dragons a-scaring me, because I am no more
>>equipped than
>>anyone else to always defend myself adequately - and have done such a
>>pitiful job
>>of it this past year that I am still hurting - and you are all welcome to
>>do it for
>>me at any time, without any specific invitation whatsoever.  And I will be
>>most grateful, and will
>>certainly do it for any others when I feel it is right, unless you
>>specifically tell me you
>>don't want me to.

>>First, I do not accept that I attacked JoAnne the way she attacked me. I
>>was not the protagonist, and I am sure if you got anyone from outside
>>to read it all through (what a waste of lifetime) that it would not look
>>like just a quid pro quo.
>
>I might consider a waste of a lifetime would be the endless tooing and
>froing and she said, he said, or in this case, she said, she said. And I
>never did this, and she said I did and...

D'accord. Totally.

>>Second, are we back on gender wars? Did HooN only do this because I am
>>a woman and he is a man?  Are men only allowed to defend men, and
>>women defend women, in DoloresWorld?

>In Dolores world I'd have slung you off the list ages ago, but this is Walt
>world. In Dolores world everybody fights their own battles and nobody sits
>on the fence. Dolores world however is my world and

Well, in JulieWorld we have better things to do than fight battles
all the time. And if you've never sat on a fence you don't know what
you've missed. :)

I get the message Dolores - you're big and tough and wow can you kick
ass.
Borrrrrrring...!!

>>I have to say I am getting a wonderful giggle out of this. First of all,
>>because it does feel all warm and cuddly to be defended - makes
>> me feel much safer in the world.

>Lovely, a sentiment every feminist in Dolores World would be proud to hear.

Hmmmm...do you think men don't like to feel safe, Dolores?

And do feminists have to ape macho men?  Quelle erreur!
Thought kind of feminism never existed in JulieWorld - that is
waaaaaay passe and retro.

> But also because I am wondering where you were when
>>I was attacked???? How come it was all right for you and Anita and JoAnne
>>and Wilbur to shred me to pieces while Walter stood absently by, without
>>anyone objecting, but suddenly there are objections when I'm being
>>DEFENDED???? Ola!!!

>Point out one email where I shredded you to pieces? I lay off shredding
>people to pieces because there is a nasty streak in me thats not tempered
>by civilised prose or intelligent arguement, but rather at stating things
>as they are. I think you might not like to see that, but then again, tempt
>me and you never know what might happen. Won't be able to resist that one
>will you Julienne?


Omigod!!! HooN!!! Help me!!  Saddle up!!!!

Come on, Dolores, go back and check what you wrote.

>>What's wrong with this picture? Could some be happier with aggression
>>than kindness?

>I would reply..but I' am not going to. Because I've learnt the meaning of
>restraint.

Admirable. :)

>>Well, I'm going back to my little nest to purr for a while. :):):):):)
>>
>And I leave my nest to go sharpen my talons

Oh no! Not the DREADED TALONS????????

Gawd!  This is fun. Is this like play-war for grown-ups?

It's okay HooN, I can take care of this one. I'm feeling very brave and
preenful since my encounter with the Hero. I have become invincible!
Claw as you like, Dolores...'twill merely glance off my feathery armour. :)

Love,

Julienne the Intrepid.

PS What is such a Ferocious Person such as yourself, Dolores,
doing on a Submission Site? Inquiring minds want to know...<giggle>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:37:13 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Some subjects, mostly Julienne.
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At 02:43 AM 6/28/98 +0100, Dolores wrote:

>Presumably the risk of fire is greatest when he's pouring the hot wax on
>her nipples, in which case let us hope he has the key to her cuffs near at
>hand. She doesn't want to help herself, until she reaches that choice, and
>who am I to say she needs help or not, because she's not acting within
>acceptable norms, dose that make them wrong because they are not my
>normality, who am I to judge anothers normality?

A voyeur?

>What is the criteria for insanity? Isn't it absence of self awareness?

No - that's pretty normal.

>>If slavegirl is a real person who is undergoing the experiences you've
>>described, you've preached a fundamental attitude, "It's her choice," and
>>something along the line of 'it's a sick world' but, in slave girl's case,
>>"For whatever reason she has chosen to live like this, whatever screwed up
>>product of her childhood etc. she now is, she is acting of her own free
>>will."

No - abused people are acting out of their programming, their  wounds,
their damage.

>I don't presume to be arrogant enough to define what is normal. Therefore I
>can only make a decision based on what I see, and that is now, on revision,
>somebody who is blissfully happy being chained and god knows what else of
>her OWN FREE WILL.

REALITY in DeloresWorld!

Revisionism extraordinaire!

>>(I'm hoping slavegirl's house doesn't burn down; I don't think she'd enjoy
>>that.)

>Who in their right mind would? Of course I fitted fire alarms, but when the
>batteries ran out, I haven't bothered to replace them. Irresponsible maybe
>but does that mean I'm abnormal? insane? Gaga? (Apparently only if I am
>tied to the bed, or in a cage under the stairs at the time said fire occurs.)

Want my opinion?

Julienne

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Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:57:25 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
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At 11:03 PM 6/27/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>Julienne, if the situation is so severe, so life-threatening, what the HELL
>are you doing about it?  All I see is that you are telling Walter he's
>acting inhuman and detached by not acting.

Detached and disassociated.

>You're doing NOTHING too.  NOTHING AT ALL except arguing that this is an
>emergency.  You're doing no more than Walter is doing.  You're no better
>than he is when the rubber hits the road.

Well, I prefer to leave no rubber on the road - I don't know
Walter's intimate habits.

It would seem that you don't really need me to join in this
conversation with you anyway - you've written the dialogue
for both of us! I can't wait to see how it comes out...:)

>What action could Walter possibly take that you couldn't?  How is he more
>powerful than you?

Hmmmm...how much can you bench press, Walter? :)

Julienne

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Date:         Sat, 27 Jun 1998 23:05:18 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
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At 01:58 AM 6/28/98 +0100, Dolores wrote:

HerooN wrote: (get it? Hero Hoon...:)

>>I'll continue to post as I see fit. My post stands, Dolores, and not as
>>anything to do with an attempt to tackle JoAnne. If you think it is
>>patronizing of me to respond to JoAnne's post in the way I did, I'm edified
>>now as to your interpretation.

>>Projections amuse me, mine, as well as yours.

>As my mother used to say...Little Things please little Minds.

And...she said this to, er  - you - Dolores?

>And when did I attempt censorship?

It was your alter, Dolores, scolding HerooN for defending li'l
ole moi!

Julienne

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Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:47:38 -0500
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Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
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The horse still hasn't come back...from the lunch? Still, there has been a
lot of riding back and forth on this day as we merrily get down to really
amp the symmetry, although, technically, we're riding on a thirteen month
cycle. The year-ago-to-date threads were about healing circles, etc.

***

But that horse? Maybe it needed a rest? Or it ran away from the battle, but
its shadow stayed or something like that?

***

Then there's this morbid thought: which is the possibility that as long as
one makes a freely willed choice and that choice doesn't harm anybody else,
then all sorts of wondrous extreme erotic burning may then become possible.

I had not before today considered what Psyche and Eros may really be about.
Saddle 'em up!

***

Then I have terribly sad thoughts, 'what if slavegirl isn't a fiction?' I'm
almost tempted to go in the other room and ask my partner if she really
loves me, but, then, it would seem to her such an odd, insincere question.

Another image: the insistent animus commanding: "Choose!"

And then there's a great cartoon my Matt Gronig, which shows a room with
shattered stuff and flung junk and mashed up crap all over, and a guilty
Jeff standing in one corner, with the caption "Mistakes were made."

***

Meeseo! We're having a ghastly day today. But we must be choosing it...

freely.

***

I'm sorry,

HooN

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Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:06:33 -0400
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Subject:      Re: tripe in the mirror
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Somebody musta poured kerosene down the ant hill sometime after lunch.


                                    *    _        #           ``       /  =91=
,=92,

                ``      ``      ``        ``       `` =91=92=92          ~` =
``````
   - ---   -      - - - -       --    -       +  =91=92=92=92=92  ````` +  -=
-       ,=92,=92,

            ,=92,=92,=92      %    -  - - - - - -  =91=92   =91=92   @    ``=
   ~~``           ``,=92,=92
                   ` `            ``            ,=92,=92,=92         =91 =91=
  =91  =91=92  =91=92  =91  + =91=92=92             =91=92            =91=92=
=92=92        =91=92
=91   =91
                  =91 =91 =91 =91   `       ` ` ` ` ` ` `         *    =91,=92=
,=92           *        =91=92  =91
           %                   *
                     =91=92=92              ```       ` ` ` ` +#,,      =91=92=
,,     =91,=92,=92,=92,

  My Self isn't very happy.  Says take Bear back to the lake.
  Wanta come with us, Meeseo?

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Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 05:54:23 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: A beautiful symmetry
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Dear Hoon, because I am responding to your post,

Dear All, because i have a sense we are connected and i am responding to
many threads, especially as I quote from the "necessity" discussion,

Hoon, you wrote:
> Your post strikes me as being on the order of *meta-commentary* and, not
> surprisingly, its terms are depersonalized. I feel about your intention,
> which is partly to recapitulate and also sense the pattern(s).

I appreciate your willingness to enter into my intention, I feel heard.
I'll add to what you understand as my intention, which is right in so far
as it goes, but which I can amplify.

The conversation about "meta" we had here (Simon and I mostly, I think) was
on my mind a day or so ago as I listened to a conversation which mirrored
ours:  one person saw "meta language" as language about a language, such as
grammar, the other saw it as language that takes us beyond the words.  No
wonder it can be confusing when the same words are used with such a
different ways.  The second meaning is more akin to the way I am seeing the
patters.

I think my are highly personal *and* abstractions, they are not abstract
theory about patterns or nature or fate "in general" but about how we are
embroiled in these larger forces.  As Anita put it, quoting Neumann:

| The old myths are living in us, and we are living them, because they
| are "unconscious representations of  the crucial life situations, and
| one of the reasons  why myths are so significant for us is that  we
| can  read  the true experiences of mankind in these confessions
| unobscured by consciousness"

Anita has been bringing the story of Eros and Psyche here to shed light on
our "story" here ...

To call it a story, or a drama, or a "game" in the GBG, to some is to
depersonalise and make *unreal*, to some it is to bring to the fore the
*underlying reality* of interconnectedness, that is how it is for me.
Seeing such underlying forces at "play" is painful, often I sense them
before I have words or myth to articulate them, when I do, I may be
misunderstood or  attacked.

The pattern enables me to reflect on many of our actions here, including,
for example, my own dominance / submissive traits!  Seeing the pattern
allows us to see the universals, for example  reading the urls that Joanne
provided links our "story" to the origins of civil disobedience, religious
obedience, and ... as Julienne has already made clear the nature of
tyranny.  Charles has bought in the problem of good and evil, though in
another context, I see a connection with the overall process here.  We have
the image of the irritant grain of sand in the crucible of the shellfish,
creating the pearl.  We can "personalise" the image how we will.  I am as
much the irritant as the shellfish, the universal is the mirror for the
whole of us, we have Eros and Psyche.

There is a line in a song by Tom Waites:  "You are innocent when you
dream."  There is the sort of distancing that we do in relation to our
dreams.  We can dream evil, and that does not make us evil.  I had a sense
that in my post (however clumsily) I was drawing us into the collective
dream, perhaps drawing attention to the dreamer, who is larger than us as
individuals, a depersonalising of a sort, though I was, and am in awe of
the greater as I see us less personally.  A standing back, a contemplation.
I am grateful for Charles' words, in "toward the nature of necessity",
Sat, 27 Jun 1998, which capture my intention :

| And what this tells me is that we
| have, somewhere, the capacity for grasping an inclusive good that goes
| beyond the "good / evil" dichotomy, that we can deeply applaud that more
| inclusive good for so wonderfully managing the inclusion *when we can stand
| back as audience, and know that we are watching a "play"*.
|
| Comes real life, however, and we have little or no capacity to bring that
| inclusiveness to bear on the lived, vivid moment.  We are caught up in our
| "side" of the drama -- we too are among the players, we too have a "role"
| to play.  Hence Shakespeare's "all the world's a stage..."

I am prone to add that extra comment:  We, here, now, in this process, are
on such a stage.  My comment both personalises the universal notion:  "all
the world's a stage..." and brings it home and invites us to look at our
"roles", and it is a step into the audience of Psyber-L ... a distancing
from the stage into the audience.  Even as i took a moment to be in the
audience, my stage role was not entirely gone, and some who read my post do
not step off the stage into the audience with me ... and hence a complexity
arises.  Perhaps it would help if I paraphrase such posts with a line such
as:  "I invite you to step into the audience for a moment ..."   Such a
step to me is one of intimacy as much as distancing.


> ***
>
> The *notional* is a very difficult notion!
>
> Applying it to each other also may be or at least seem to be a
> depersonalization. But, then, you wrote, and I paraphrase,
>
> "God comes in by way of the stage door"
>
> That's a keeper.

The psychodrama stage is a crucible as is Psyber-L, we are in an alchemical
process.

Is putting it like that what you mean by *notional*?  If so I can see what
you mean by it being difficult.  It makes some people feel as if they are
part of an experiment, on a stage, depersonalised.

> It cannot be *entirely* personal. But this will be frustrating for anybody
> who sees the personal everywhere and frustrating for anybody who sees the
> personal nowhere.

Yes.  I do not place myself in either category, but rather as one, however
imperfectly,  sees the personal and the ... transcendent (or underlying!
reality) everywhere,  fate and individual autonomy do not contradict each
other.  I see God or the gods, say Eros and Psyche, alive in Psyber-L!
Which is a  moving experience, even if it is painful to face the
consequences.

This is painful, and frustrating yet I am in accord with (and find
comfort!) in what Charles said in the same post:

| it pushes
| towards something I have glimpsed, have no grasp on, but am unwilling to
| let slide: a sense that the comfortable is not my goal, that easier is not
| necessarily better, that the situations I find myself in which I most hate
| and would most like to be quickly resolved may be the ones that hold the
| best chance of transforming me.


~~~

The line:

"I invite you to step into the audience for a moment ..."

is already implicit in the invitation / description to Psyber-L, that we do
this here is to be expected, indeed  required if we are to be true to our
collective identity and purpose.

But that is to do with the list and its architecture and so on, which is on
the agenda, in other threads.  If the difficulty and pain is inherent in
the way this place is set or conducted then the transformation must also be
there.  And if it is the case ... even if people have freely chosen it ...
I am sorry, it is not exactly what I intended either.


~~~

I have seen a beautiful symmetry, if horrible in some ways.


Walter.












__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:18:33 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Living through turning points
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At 12:47 AM 6/28/98 -0500, HooN wrote:

>The horse still hasn't come back...from the lunch? Still, there has been a
>lot of riding back and forth on this day as we merrily get down to really
>amp the symmetry, although, technically, we're riding on a thirteen month
>cycle. The year-ago-to-date threads were about healing circles, etc.

>But that horse? Maybe it needed a rest? Or it ran away from the battle, but
>its shadow stayed or something like that?

>Then there's this morbid thought: which is the possibility that as long as
>one makes a freely willed choice and that choice doesn't harm anybody else,
>then all sorts of wondrous extreme erotic burning may then become possible.

Depends how we define freedom, doesn't it?

>I had not before today considered what Psyche and Eros may really be about.
>Saddle 'em up!

>Then I have terribly sad thoughts, 'what if slavegirl isn't a fiction?' I'm
>almost tempted to go in the other room and ask my partner if she really
>loves me, but, then, it would seem to her such an odd, insincere question.

Why?

>Another image: the insistent animus commanding: "Choose!"

>And then there's a great cartoon my Matt Gronig, which shows a room with
>shattered stuff and flung junk and mashed up crap all over, and a guilty
>Jeff standing in one corner, with the caption "Mistakes were made."
>
>***
>
>Meeseo! We're having a ghastly day today. But we must be choosing it...

>freely.
>
>***
>
>I'm sorry,

HooN,

We're having a hard time reflected in the sky: a Saturn-Neptune
square. The conflict between reality and fantasy, responsibility and
avoidance; security and dissolving boundaries; truth versus greater
truth; law and order versus compassion; commitment or escape.

It's not all your fault HooN - we're all just funny/sad/wondrous little
creatures muddling along between moments of idiocy and brilliance,
shame and pride, ignorance and insight. Sometimes we are
wonderful, sometimes not.

Meeseo, be tolerant. Julienne, be tolerant.

Love

Julienne

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Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 01:27:59 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: A beautiful symmetry
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At 08:15 PM 6/27/98 -0500, HooN wrote:
>"God comes in by way of the stage door"
>
>That's a keeper.

God as actor?

>It cannot be *entirely* personal. But this will be frustrating for anybody
>who sees the personal everywhere and frustrating for anybody who sees the
>personal nowhere.

You've caught it, HooN.

Julienne

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Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:05:27 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: toward the nature of necessity
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At 08:43 PM 6/27/98 -0500, HooN wrote:

>Charles, tell me about the pinnacle of your experience of a garden; what it
>was your nose told you! (My intuition tells me there are some fantastic
>'garden' experiences out there.

I made a garden for my father last year. He couldn't move,
or go anywhere without help, so I had to bring it all to him.
So I planted what I could find with fragrance, perfumes which
would waft up through his window and fill his room. I also put
some in his room. I don't know for sure that he could even smell
them, but I hope so. He had taught me to garden when I was tiny -
letting me have my little patch, letting me follow him around as he
tended the vegetable garden, the passionfruit vines,the Flame Tree,
the Christmas Bush, Dahlias of so many colours...and scents.
Camellias - which seemd so giant-like when I was small, but shrank
when I was older. Calla Lilies, fig trees, watercress in the stream
with the frogs...so clear. Purple Jacaranda trees dropping their
purple carpet all along the path to Sunday School. And "my"
Magnolia tree, with its giant flowers with their gentle lemony
scent - you could bury your whole face in one - in their soft cups.
Boronia, Bottle Brush, Waratah - giant red flowers - one was
all you needed. Daddy grew them, and my mother filled the
house with them. We always had flowers everywhere - inside and
out. Freezias - there's an amazing scent - and now there are
extraordinary colours as well. I've never seen Freezias grow as
well as I saw them in New Zealand.

I couldn't get my father all these plants here. Freezias, yes, and
roses, and azaleas and Stephanotis-type vines. There's a new
exotic pink bellish vine whose name I can't remember - not so
fragrant, but very showy, so I had them all over his room, along with
those giant lilies whose name I also can't remember tonight. He
loved those most - was amazed at their size and colours, and
wanted them near him. And just when I thought he'd lost interest
in the outside world, he'd tell me how beautiful the leaves on the
trees looked as they began to turn just before he die in November.

I took him outside for lunch one day, and I filled his pocket with big
pom poms of Hydrangeas - and he loved it. Laughed - but wanted them
left in his pocket. I took photos of him like that.  Seemed such a nice
thing  - to have flowers in one's pocket like that. He died the day after
I bought the Christmas tree - November 29th. I think he wanted to
stay alive for Christmas, and when he saw the tree, he thought he
had. I don't know. I hope so.

My father connected me to the earth through the flowers...and to
the universe through his dreams. I tried to tell him all that before he died.

I had a farm with an English garden which I planted - as well as fields of
fragrant trees, bushes, perennials. And I had llamas, and peacocks.
My father just wondered at them. He'd seen them in zoos, of course, but
I think he was as in awe as I of having them around one's house. A
peacock on one's car - he just laughed and laughed at my peacock
on top of my car. And he talked to the llamas - even one who spat at
everyone else. We forgot to warn him not to go near her because she had

been tortured, and didn't trust anyone. We turned around and there he
was sitting on the ground with her, stroking her. No one could stroke
her - not for a few more years.

Tomorrow I get my llamas back from the man who stole and killed
most of them...but she, Coeli, is still alive. My father isn't. Maybe she
remembers him. Maybe I can talk to her about him. She eats  flowers.
Do you know how to suck honey out of honeysuckle? It's very sweet
and fragrant.


Love,

Julienne

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Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:18:41 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: tripe in the mirror
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At 01:06 AM 6/28/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>Somebody musta poured kerosene down the ant hill sometime after lunch.
>
>
>                                    *    _        #           ``       /
‘,’,
>
>                ``      ``      ``        ``       `` ‘’’          ~` ``````
>   - ---   -      - - - -       --    -       +  ‘’’’’  ````` +  --
,’,’,
>
>            ,’,’,’      %    -  - - - - - -  ‘’   ‘’   @    ``   ~~``
     ``,’,’
>                   ` `            ``            ,’,’,’         ‘ ‘  ‘  ‘’
‘’  ‘  + ‘’’             ‘’            ‘’’’        ‘’
>‘   ‘
>                  ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘   `       ` ` ` ` ` ` `         *    ‘,’,’
    *        ‘’  ‘
>           %                   *
>                     ‘’’              ```       ` ` ` ` +#,,      ‘’,,
‘,’,’,’,
>
>  My Self isn't very happy.  Says take Bear back to the lake.
>  Wanta come with us, Meeseo?

Nancy,

This is my favourite of all your posts. Made me laugh...
Poor ants...maybe they can clean up the kerosene?
This is so awful-looking. You've got some really
smattered and splattered and concussed little
ants up there! Poor babies.

I hope it wasn't really kerosene - maybe only dark sugar
syrup - to make a party for the ants? I think they're all
right - just stuck in the syrup. Leave them alone and they'll
lick it all up and off each other.

Have faith...Meeseo too. Don't be too aghast at the poor
little ants - they're doing their best.

Love,

Julienne

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Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:19:50 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: toward the nature of necessity

>Do you know how to suck honey out of honeysuckle? It's very sweet
>and fragrant.
>
>Love  Julienne

   Julienne, I've changed your 'signature' to read the way my eldest son signs
his letters.  I say nothing about this because I am so happy he can write.  He
was once diagnosed 'autistic.'  And then there's so much more.....
  I know how to suck the honey from the honeysuckle.  My father taught me.
Also how to make dancing girls with two hollyhock blossoms.
  He is buried in Arlington Cemetary.  One of all those hundreds and hundreds
of crosses marching like ants -- Indiras all.
  His and my dog Zorro were the only deaths I've cried for....so far....oh, god....
so far...

  You said to Hoon, "You're caught it."  Do you sometimes feel, as I do, that
there is a virus loose on Psyber-L?  It seems to infect only the men.  It doesn't seem to matter whether they are Feeling or Thinking types.  If I had to give it
name, I'd say it was the 'abstraction' virus.  As you've noted it does have
a distancing effect, as if they wished to become somehow inaccessable.
'Feeling' around it 'in the dark' right now it feels like a sort of secret club, with
a sign tacked up saying 'no girls' allowed.
  I'm awfully new here, yet I haven't yet discovered anything to change my
mind about the observations above.  Has it always been like this?  Or do you
see it differently in some way.

              Nancy                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  _______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>

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Date:         Sat, 20 Jun 1998 01:40:06 +1200
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From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
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Not me. I

> Of what is our chortle except an inner freeing?


< Walter wrote >

> Dolores, were you aware of the parallels? It is as if you invented the
> story so that we could look at the depths of another ... which of course
> also points to a greater depth. I know hat you did not do that Dolores, but
> how does it happen that light from one story shines on the other?


Is this story "TRUE" or "NOT TRUE" this is an important
question.

Regardless I personally would not see it as my place to
do anything and would be the last person
here that would be of any use. being a man
for one and not one especially into
riding horses.

if it *is* true, then best response from the list
would be for someone trained and who knows what they are talking about
to do as they see fit. My choice would be a woman of the
"womans shelter" heroic variety, whom I personally
see as the best saviours for this dilemma

On the other hand it *may* be impossible / irrelevant to measure
the truth given the particularly virulent nature of this particular meme
feeding as it does on many peoples main brain-seams
and also, of course, coming so close after the story
about a list that allowed a man to burn down his
house and kids within it ( or something )

i do believe there is a truth in this,
but we should definitely prepare for the day
when such important matters will not have a fundamental
truth.

disturbing process it seems to me, this blurring of
fantasy and reality thing, but wtf

< Joanne wrote >
>Who believes women are capable of fighting their own battles without the
>intervention of White Knights. As a woman I find it patronising that you


i feel somewhat the same
way about the " 'heavy duty legal forces' at
the Hoons dispoal"  idea
which to my minds seems a bit of a
generally messed up concept though I cant
be specific.
 ;-)



> Dolores wrote:
> She doesn't want to help herself, until she reaches that choice, and
> who am I to say she needs help or not, because she's not acting within
> acceptable norms, dose that make them wrong because they are not my

> who in their right mind would? Of course I fitted fire alarms, but when the
> batteries ran out, I haven't bothered to replace them. Irresponsible maybe
> but does that mean I'm abnormal? insane? Gaga? (Apparently only if I am
> tied to the bed, or in a cage under the stairs at the time said fire
occurs.)

(notice the change in person ..)

Dolores also wrote
>
> P.S. The legal aspect of this is fascinating, but I still haven't found an
> answer to wether voluntarily enslaving of oneself, is an actual felony etc.
> According to the Police it isn't. Unless that person is somewhat gaga, but
> how do you gauge that?

We recently had a case here in NZ where a man was put into
jail for keeping a woman as a slave, I think in Auckland,
don't know the details but, I guess, it may well have
involved BDSM.

Certainly my impression from occasional news reports
was that the guy was being charged with 'slavery' as opposed
to 'assault and battery' or something. I think thats why
it made the news.

So the law is similar to that here in NZ don't
know about the US but then if youz would legalise semi-automatic
assualt weapons for 'use' around the home,
then god knows what you would do for 'freedom'.



I am / have learnt some things in this thread.

The best of which was...
> The highest form of wisdom is kindness. - Talmud




Joaane, you made the most sense to me, can you
perhaps tell me what happened at the end of
this story ?  I honestly cant tell.


Thanks to all

---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
                ( miles )

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:04:54 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      burning slavegirls
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Miles,

Look at it this way, I called Dolores's bluff.

>i feel somewhat the same
>way about the " 'heavy duty legal forces' at
>the Hoons dispoal"  idea
>which to my minds seems a bit of a
>generally messed up concept though I cant
>be specific.

If she had supplied me with direct information, I would've taken the next
few steps, and then, be done with it. Obviously, it is easy for me to
inhabit the fantastic white knight role sitting here waiting for the
information to come to me. Honestly, it struck me as a grave situation only
if it proved to be true, and I think I was forthright about where I was
coming from. As I stated previously, "We'll probably never know."

A willingness to call a person's bluff is not heroism. I don't think a
willingness to attach information with a 'narrative' and hand it over to
legal authorities is heroic either. As an answer to a person's immediate
jeopardy, intervention is sometimes called for, yet isn't necessarily the
optimal tactic, and, as Anita points out, may not work or have worse
consequences...the medicine perhaps more deleterious than the malady.

Finally, frankly, I'm relieved Dolores has not verified this to the extent
of supplying me the information I would require before I would go look for
my horse. It doesn't mean there isn't a burning slavegirl somewhere.

There is...

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:13:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      burning ants
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19980620014006.006ed85c@wn.planet.gen.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

all,

With hindsight, it is now almost impossible to get worked up about this
potentially *burning slavegirl* interlude except as grist for our mill. In
that respect it is *extraordinary* since it ties into the two aspects of
"ant mind", one the involuntary instinctual "lining-up" of the ants
precisely to avoid being burned up, and Anita's reminder that in the story
of Psyche and Eros, the ants represent the day work of discrimination and
the integration of instinct, as well as *modest approaches*.

('Heavy duty legal forces' *not* being a modest approach, rather a shadowy
disposition of masculinity; often confused with *heroic masculinity* which,
in our time, is seeking a higher evolution. Not that some real, urgent
situations don't call for rushing in, 'penetration', but I see myself, in
this situation of the last week, not being a hero, instead being inflated,
and *immodest* and smug to boot.)

***

Unconscious instinct ways heavily in any discussion of how it is an
assertion of free will may fact turn out to be a cover over truly
involuntary behavior. However, discussion of that subject and the related
subject of the mental states of both perpetrator and victim would be
incendiary. This applies to the specifics of the burning slavegirl and
also, (not so remarkably if one is sensitive to the course of events on
Psyber-L,) to our shared history here.

The beautiful symmetry to me concerns the continuum between <gender wars>
and <men and woman loving>.

_Psyche and Eros_ is not about how to use free will to rationalize
enslavement, either of actual men and woman, (and the master is
psychologically as enslaved as his or her slave,) or how it is the
masculine and feminine 'psyche' are at war with each other.

The image of pouring kerosene on an ant hill is apt. Unspoken is that the
next step for little boys is to light the kerosene on fire to 'see what
happens to the ants'. Again, there is a terrible rage against the 'mother'
implicit in this *normal* acting out of little boys, but, it is *never*
normal when it is an organizing principle to a man's later life.

Sure, construe this to suggest I'm intolerant of consensual sexuality
choices at the extremes of choice. My intolerance goes much further than
that! How easily 'love' is used as the catalyst for the mixing of
compulsion and free will. "I love being a slave." is the signature of
hatred.

***

Be that as it may: Psyber-L, in my opinion, approaches *Love between men
and woman* as if it were the very salt which would burn us up. Which means
we are hesitant to approach this at all. Thus, gender wars, which are
ongoing, especially if viewed in terms of the archetypes of masculinity and
femininity, are for us the line we hesitate to jump out of, for fear of
being burned up.

***

What makes Love so hot, 'salty'? One feeling about this is a question:

"Why didn't he love me?"

Another feeling is an admission I'd like to make: my own instincts are
crippled. It is not an abstraction to me. It is my reasoningdrama, and it
sets for me harsh, involuntary rules, and lines me up and makes it hard for
me to get out of line and set forth through the unreasonable gap,

love fully,

and smell the flowers.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 12:33:03 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: burning ants

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 11:13:00 -0500, sc  wrote:

>all,
>>
>The image of pouring kerosene on an ant hill is apt. Unspoken is that the
>next step for little boys is to light the kerosene on fire to 'see what
>happens to the ants'. Again, there is a terrible rage against the 'mother'
>implicit in this *normal* acting out of little boys, but, it is *never*
>normal when it is an organizing principle to a man's later life.
>
>Sure, construe this to suggest I'm intolerant of consensual sexuality
>choices at the extremes of choice. My intolerance goes much further than
>that! How easily 'love' is used as the catalyst for the mixing of
>compulsion and free will. "I love being a slave." is the signature of
>hatred.
>
>***
>
>Be that as it may: Psyber-L, in my opinion, approaches *Love between men
>and woman* as if it were the very salt which would burn us up. Which means
>we are hesitant to approach this at all. Thus, gender wars, which are
>ongoing, especially if viewed in terms of the archetypes of masculinity and
>femininity, are for us the line we hesitate to jump out of, for fear of
>being burned up.
-+-+-+
N: You asked about my twins, Hoon.  They are sororal.  Alike only in coloring,
hair and heiredity.  Carolyn used to enjoy holding a magnifying glass between
the sun and ants to see them pop.  Later when she was delimmaing about a
college major, one of several possibilities  I suggested was entemology.  She
now has her own lab and is responsible for all questions of organically
 contaminated  food samples for one third of the country.
  Am I then to take this as a horrible strike against me?  Or perhaps as a
protective gesture toward me,  mother as food supplier, nurisher.
>
-+-+-+
>
>What makes Love so hot, 'salty'? One feeling about this is a question:
>
>"Why didn't he love me?"
-+-+-+
N: Was there, is there a 'he' who didn't love you?  Certainlly my children
feel there was/is.
-+-+-+
>
>Another feeling is an admission I'd like to make: my own instincts are
>crippled. It is not an abstraction to me. It is my reasoningdrama, and it
>sets for me harsh, involuntary rules, and lines me up and makes it hard for
>me to get out of line and set forth through the unreasonable gap,
-+-+-+
N: I don't understand this (just above)  Not because of it's abstraction, I think.
Perhaps others do?  Men?  Women?  Both?  And yet I feel it lies very close unto my plate of things-to-be groked.
-+-+-+
>
>love fully,
>
>and smell the flowers.
-+-+-+>
>*** N: But didn't you just imply that that is precisely what we cannot do?
-+-+-+>
>HooN
>
>         N: Perhaps this is the house that Loneliness built.

                                    Why doesn't
                                he       she         IT
                                       love me?
                                    and why do
                                         Not I
                                  love more fully

                                       Nancy
  In the aftermath of Father's Day, still seeking common ground.      ______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:29:19 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
In-Reply-To:  <v04011702b1bb470e7b78@[207.54.160.208]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello sc <hoon@APK.NET>, on Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:06:44 -0500 you wrote:

>JoAnne,
>
>>You're doing NOTHING too.
>
>I don't comprehend how you can tell what Julienne is, or is not doing, from
>the emails she's been writing, except as that doing or not doing may regard
>her writing email.
>
>Seems an illogical leap to be so sure she is doing nothing. How do you know?

You have a point, I don't know.  I thought, however, that if she were doing
anything we'd be hearing about it, in great detail.  Why would she contrast
Walter's uncaring with her caring, if she could instead contrast Walter's
inaction with her action?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:29:22 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980627214536.010d0620@postoffice.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:22:08
-0400 you wrote:

>Gawd!  This is fun. Is this like play-war for grown-ups?

Did you mistake words for arrows?  Gosh, no wonder you get so upset.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:38:49 +0300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Vs: [P] Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Hello Walter, and all

I'm  hopeless. Every time  when I open   the emails box, there  is  either
Julienne's  attacks,  accusations and complaints.. She  does not  discuss,
meditate, or even  response to such  important post as Charles'  "GBG:
Walter's role". She is only screams for  sympathy and help.  Now she is
wondering to Dolores:


>  where you were when
>I was attacked???? How come it was all right for you and Anita and JoAnne
>and Wilbur to shred me to pieces while Walter stood absently by, without
>anyone objecting, but suddenly there are objections when I'm being
>DEFENDED???? Ola!!!

She is like Daddy's  dear little  girl, who  provokes others to attack, and
then she  runs  behind  Daddy's back  and  cries: it  was not me, but those
 naughty  boys/ girls  who  began it.  Now  she wants Walter to be  her
Daddy. But Walter  hasn't agreed to  play her game,  fortunately, and
Julienne blames for   Walter for  victimizing  her.  It is irrational and
silly, and  so cheap. It feels, that all are afraid of Julienne's reactions
and the  whole list is goes round Julienne's navel, and  she is  purring
with delight, of course.  I'm fed up with this all.  I think it  would be
best for my state of mind to retire now to my secret garden.

Regards to all
Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:32:48 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      [post 1 of 2] Re: [P] help Required..
Mime-Version: 1.0
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All:

I've been thinking a lot about the issues raised by Dolores' account of the
girl in Texas.

The first thing I'd like to say -- to make explicit -- is that I personally
recognize the validity of what I'm going to call "crisis service".  By this
I mean that my theory of human obligation holds that we are obliged in two
ways: to "regular service", meaning going about our daily business of work
and play in a way which takes care of food and shelter while maximising our
gifts, and "crisis" service, meaning being willing to put aside "regular
service" when an emergency arises.

I think this is important to say, because I think those of us who decided
that the girl needed help and needed it immediately have had difficulty
with those of us who felt the "information was not all in yet", the
situation might be a fictitious one -- there have been some very cruel
extended jokes played out on the internet -- or a real one where the legal
apparatus would be powerless in law to help, or where intervention would be
an infringement of the individual's free choice of sexual behavior.

Those who saw the situation as one of "crisis service" were prone to anger
at those who saw it as calling for cautious further investigation with
reservations, I submit, because they felt the cautious investigation was a
failure or refusal to recognize the need for "crisis service" to take over
from "regular service" -- while those who counseled caution were perhaps
(a) no less moved by the crisis, (b) feeling that it had not yet reached
the point of being a clear call (in either the sense of "decision" or that
of "vocation"), and (c) therefore more willing in the meantime to carry on
with said "regular service" -- which in the case of Psyber-L means
discussing "psyche in cyberspace" in this particular context, and maybe in
other simultaneous threads.

"How can you just sit there on your hands chatting about psyche?" would be
one side of the matter, and "How can you jump up and act when you haven't
investigated the implications?" would be the other -- and for my money,
*both* signal worthy responses to a human situation, *neither one* seems to
me to lack feeling.

*

I personally feel it would be good to contact (i) someone with the kind of
training and experience that comes with running an abused women's shelter
(thanks, Miles) and (ii) someone with the kind of experience and
sensitivity that comes with long participation in the dom / sub culture
(thanks, Dolores) -- and if both of these kinds of training / expertise /
sensitivity were agreed that intervention was required, to put them in
contact with the sort of legal and law enforcement experts that Hoon has
access to (thanks, Hoon).

My reading of Dolores' most recent posts suggests that the dom / sub
culture would be far from certain that intervention would be a positive,
and my reading of Anne Rice, the History of O and other sub / dom
literature suggests that there *are* in fact people whose sexual fantasies
extend pretty far in the direction described.  Like most of us, I find this
thought strange and somewhat frightening, and cannot tell at what point to
draw -- cannot tell whether the "master" is a dangerous sociopath or not.

Because that's the key for me, the real issue as far as danger to life and
limb is concerned: the "master".

And he's the one we know *least* about.

For me, personally, then, this is an issue of potential "crisis"
proportions, calling for action specifically from those whose sensitivity
and wisdom (and authority) is greater than mine.

*

That leaves me concerned to a point, reassured by both Dolores' and Hoon's
contributions -- but also free to continue discussing "psyche in
cyberspace" as usual.  I am not one of those who might be "on call" in this
situation, it seems to me, except perhaps as a voice for the view that both
the "immediate" and "cautious" responses are honorable and important.

But then you see, my gift, and the gift of the games, is to hold
passionately held and opposing views in tension, with appreciation for the
virtues of each.

This post constitutes my direct response to the perceived crisis.  In an
following post, I'd like to look at what's going on here among us, as a
staggeringly rich opportunity to witness "psyche in cyberspace".

Agree or argue with me as you will, that's the way I see it.

With best wishes,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 10:32:49 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      [post 2 of 2] Re: [P] help Required..
Mime-Version: 1.0
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All:

I said I'd like to discuss *our discussion* of the situation in Texas, as a
window on "psyche in cyberspace".  Here goes:

*

Here we have a situation which consists in about as compelling a "search
and rescue" mission as once could imagine -- and which also provides
absolutely prime "matter" for a discussion of what Jung and Hillman are up
to when they keep talking about myths, myths, myths.  No wonder the
conversation on this list goes ten ways from Tuesday.

The importance of calls for help and response to them, white knights on
chargers, a maiden in distress, the shadow aspects of heroic intervention,
fools rushing in where angels fear to tread, caution vs action, even a name
("slavegirl") which may be "romanticizing and depersonalizing" and / or a
sort of badge of honor, a preferred appelation -- we have seen then all.
And myth, myth as the heart of the lived reality, myth as the polar
opposite of the lived reality.

*

Let me say that it seems to me my life's work is to come to grips with the
human situation, and that my own search has led me to the study of mythic
imagination as one very powerful source of understanding.  The correlations
between myth and reality are astounding, and I am very grateful to Anita
for pointing us to a myth which has so many and such strong echos with the
situation of the young woman in Texas.

Julienne's response:

> She is not a beautiful "slave-girl" in a beautiful and meaningful
> myth - but a suffering human being.

although Julienne means it (I believe) principally as a response to the
"crisis service" situation, hold extraordinary power for me as it affects
my thinking about the nature, importance, relevance of myth to human life,
and to the "life fully lived" in particular.

Kaboom!  Can myth distract us from service?  Is myth a blueprint for the
human passions, and if so, in what way should it be "read into" situations?
From my POV, Julienne's passionate remark here raises in concise and
pointed form a whole slew of questions which cut to the heart of my own
struggle, as a human and as a poet -- not to mention the work and nature of
Jung's analytical psychology as therapy, and the work of Hillman in
"deviating" from Jung in the direction he calls "archetypal psychology" to
indicate the difference.

It seems to me that "romanticizing and depersonalizing" is also very much
at issue between us: again raising questions which cut to the heart of
"psyche in cyberspace" and the nature of psyche in general.  "Psyche and
Eros" -- what other myth could we possibly think of so relevant to the list
purpose?

*

I tend to notice, as I have said, patterns.  One idea over here strikes me
as "parallel to" or "in opposition to" another over there.  It's a normal
human activity, but it's the one my own life happens to revolve around, as
others' lives revolve around singing, dancing, teaching, preparing food,
healing.

It's how I struggle to come to grips with the things that are important to
me.

Let me make that a little clearer.  I think, along with many other people,
that polariziation is all too often a death manoeuvre -- polarization,
taking sides, is the essence of warfare -- and Eros and Thanatos (Love and
Death) are as familiar a pair in myth as Eros and Psyche: so my own
response to polarization is to seek connection between the opposites -- the
"attraction" between opposite poles (magnetism), the "coniunctio
oppositorum" in Jung's terms, which he sees as the culmination of the
therapeutic and integrative process.

The author whose work I have devoted the last three of four years of my
life to, Hermann Hesse, talks about this too, in the context of the Glass
Bead Game:

::  But never forget what I have told you so often: our mission is to
::  recognize contraries for what they are: first of all as contraries,
::  but then as opposite poles of a unity.  Such is the nature of the
::  Glass Bead Game.

That's Eros' way, the making of connections...   And that's what my own
games are all about.

*

By way of "recognizing contraries", I have found eight quotes -- two sets
of four -- in our recent discussion that seem to me to characterize
"opposite poles".

I'd like to offer them to you:

Dolores writes:

> the girl is 23, and has spent the last year as a slave to some guy
> in Texas. This basically involves her confined to the house 24
> hours a day, or if she is very lucky she gets a trip to a slave
> party where she's publicly flogged and had by all. When I spoke
> to her I asked her if he ever took her out, and she said, only into
> the back yard.

Anita quotes Apuleius:

> it struck me that the girl lives like Psyche, who "was kept a close
> captive within the walls of her luxurious prison and deprived of
> all human conversation. She might not even bring consolation to
> her sisters. Eros warned her again and again with words that
> struck terror to the soul, never to let her sisters persuade her by
> their ill counsels to inquire what her husband was like", as
> Apuleus tells. All days long she was alone, and heard only
> disembodied voices. By night Eros came and made love with her
> in the darkness and departed in haste before the dawn. By days
> she wept floods of tears, but nevertheless she said to Eros:
> "Sooner would I die a hundred deaths than be robbed of your
> sweet love. For whoever you are, I love you and adore you
> passionately". All others - her parents, her sisters - knew that
> her husband was a monster-dragon, because the oracle had said
> so.

Julienne writes:

> She is not a beautiful "slave-girl" in a beautiful and meaningful
> myth - but a suffering human being.

and Dolores again:

> The Mythical story Anita wrote, is in essence her situation

*

Furthermore, Dolores writes:

> When you don't have an identity you can't get hurt. This is really
> complex stuff and I'm way out of my depth on giving advice.

Julienne asks Walter:

> How can you romanticize and depersonalize her into "a slave
> girl"??????????

and writes to Anita:

> She is not a "slave-girl" - but now two people on this list are
> romanticizing and distancing her reality.

and Dolores most recently:

> She would be offende btw, if you refered to her as anything other
> than slave girl, or pet. Its the appellation of her choice.

*

Recognizing the opposites is the first stage in a glass bead game, and I
think these eight quotes could be the "counters" in a game about what has
been happening here.

Reconciling them is a whole other business.

I don't get the sense that we have anything like the level of trust needed
to run a full scale group game on a sister list to this one at the moment
-- but I could imagine playing a "solo" game on list with these eight
ideas, attempting in effect to write an essay that would honor each in
turn, and explore the twin issues of "romanticizing and distancing" and "
beautiful and meaningful myth -- suffering human being", which I've already
said are issues that touch my passion for grappling with our human
condition to the quick.

That would be quite a task, both in "writing" -- it would need to be an
extended "essay game" and might easily run 3,000 words -- and more
importantly in self examination: I would be putting my own deeply and
passionately held beliefs and intuitions to the test.

If that's a project that would interest privacy, authoriship and
permissions in another post for your approval before proceeding.

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 14:27:59 -0500
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From:         Susan Swan <sswan@USD.EDU>
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Robert Longpre wrote:

>  . . . Oh, yes,
> forgot to mention the plants and the collection of frogs, ceramic and
> stone and velour that I seem to have collected over the years, most of
> them as gifts from students and friends.
>


Frogs-----an interesting totem for you, Robert.  A sign of
transformation, passing from one state to another, from egg to tadpole,
tadpole to ... to ..... (oops, my biological memory fails me here-I know
there is a middle stage) , from .... to frog, from frog to
prince...........wonder where you see yourself in the process?

                                        Susan

(Obviously, this note means I'm home--I did not have to resort to
Druidic sacrifices, even though we had to take shelter at Wind Cave
National Park from a tornado.  Our cousin left this a.m. with his folks
headed home; my daughter leaves tomorrow a.m. to fly to her dad's for 10
days..............ah, the anticipation of blessed silence.....)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:20:44 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
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Hello Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>, on Sat, 20 Jun 1998 01:40:06 +1200
you wrote:

>< Joanne wrote >
>>Who believes women are capable of fighting their own battles without the
>>intervention of White Knights. As a woman I find it patronising that you

I think it was Dolores that wrote that; I'm pretty sure it wasn't me,
though I don't disagree.

>Joaane, you made the most sense to me, can you
>perhaps tell me what happened at the end of
>this story ?  I honestly cant tell.

I don't know, it doesn't look like it's ended yet, or even necessarily
susceptible to ending.

You might really wish to be asking Dolores since she's the one who has the
contact with the young woman in question.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:20:47 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:57:25
-0400 you wrote:

>At 11:03 PM 6/27/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>Julienne, if the situation is so severe, so life-threatening, what the HELL
>>are you doing about it?  All I see is that you are telling Walter he's
>>acting inhuman and detached by not acting.
>
>Detached and disassociated.
>
>>You're doing NOTHING too.  NOTHING AT ALL except arguing that this is an
>>emergency.  You're doing no more than Walter is doing.  You're no better
>>than he is when the rubber hits the road.
>
>Well, I prefer to leave no rubber on the road - I don't know
>Walter's intimate habits.
>
>It would seem that you don't really need me to join in this
>conversation with you anyway - you've written the dialogue
>for both of us! I can't wait to see how it comes out...:)
>
>>What action could Walter possibly take that you couldn't?  How is he more
>>powerful than you?
>
>Hmmmm...how much can you bench press, Walter? :)

Good lord Julienne.  You tell us that someone's life is in imminent danger,
slavery and torture is being inflicted on this woman, and simultaneously
you're detaching and dissociating so fast it makes my head spin.

Is this whole episode only something reflecting on you and the way you want
to be seen?  Does this woman mean anything to you other than as a hook to
hang your pity on?

In the last couple of days I've seen more smileys and fanciful thinking and
lighthearted comments from you than probably in the entire previous month.
In the midst of what I thought you might feel as deep sorrow and
disappointment about someone being tortured RIGHT NOW and no one doing
anything about it, you are reveling in being "defended," purring like a
cat, making weird word-associations with rubber and still not doing a damn
thing.

What on earth is going on?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:57:02 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing Julienne in the mirror

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:20:47 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:


>In the last couple of days I've seen more smileys and fanciful thinking and
>lighthearted comments from you than probably in the entire previous month.
>In the midst of what I thought you might feel as deep sorrow and
>disappointment about someone being tortured RIGHT NOW and no one doing
>anything about it, you are reveling in being "defended," purring like a
>cat, making weird word-associations with rubber and still not doing a damn
>thing.
>
>What on earth is going on?

N:  She's joyful that she's getting her llamas back today, I think
.  Did you miss that?
What's going on with you?
>
>-JoAnne
>

                                  Nancy
Surrounded by books on the mythology of bondage.
>_____
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 28 Jun 1998 18:43:25 -0500
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Nancy,

>  Am I then to take this as a horrible strike against me?  Or perhaps as a
>protective gesture toward me,  mother as food supplier, nurisher.

Nope. And you don't, right? The 'rage' is natural in my estimation; it's
energy sufficient enough to separate a boy or a girl from the matrix.
(...thinking out loud.) I don't mean to pathologoze it. "Rage" is a loaded
word. I'm feeling about its incorporation.

Hey, lighting the kerosene is *mostly* an experiment. It's a difficult
'adult' lesson to know differently, to not light the kerosene...a different
kind of service too.

***

>>"Why didn't he love me?"
>-+-+-+
>N: Was there, is there a 'he' who didn't love you?  Certainlly my children
>feel there was/is.

It has been a succession, moving from father to employers to teachers to
God. To say so, I trivialize the experience of struggling to get a grip on
my own reality because each projection, each situation, each loss and
separation and eventual astonishment have been different iterations of the
pattern.

***

I speak only for myself personally, Nancy. I approach my self with
imagination. There was a long period of time when, after comprehending the
scope of the problematic of the puer aeternus, and during an intense three
year period of playing my dreams, what effectively began the conscious
transformation were dramatic events concerning my family and my
relationships.

I consider myself extremely fortunate, which is different than considering
myself extremely conscious. ;-)

>>
>>love fully,
>>
>>and smell the flowers.
>-+-+-+>
>>*** N: But didn't you just imply that that is precisely what we cannot do?
>-+-+-+>
>>HooN
>>
>>         N: Perhaps this is the house that Loneliness built.
>
>                                    Why doesn't
>                                he       she         IT
>                                       love me?
>                                    and why do
>                                         Not I
>                                  love more fully
>
>                                       Nancy
>  In the aftermath of Father's Day, still seeking common ground.

I'm sure we are able to smell the flowers and love fully. Are there mythic
learnings first?

Aren't you also dancing struggling working playing to be a better lover, a
better smeller?

***

winking at you, all!

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 May 1998 15:33:41 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome to Osama
In-Reply-To:  <9805178954.AA895430345@ccmgate.nbk.com>
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"Osama Abdul Hadi"<osamah@nbk.com>

In the following post:

  "Osama Abdul Hadi"<osamah@nbk.com>

Thank you for subscribing, I hope you find this a good place to be and
to explore the psyche in cyberspace.

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 May 1998 02:35:19 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: People and Places
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Walter,

>>I would like to know more on this, Walter: "Something got fouled up
>>in the process ..."
>
>I am not sure what it was ... however I think we both set out with
>good will and honesty and then at some point each? of us felt
>uncomfortable ... for me it was around the self-absorbed
>self-indulgent theme.

I feel that the good will and honesty is still (t)here.

>In the case of the "self-absorbed" comment it then triggered an
>area of my vulnerability ... of finding it difficult to be
>"out-there".

I hope I've been able to meet you in a way that has helped that, but maybe
we're not there yet.

>It is complex to attend to but it is what in psychotherapy we might call
>transference.  If I feel attacked and you didn't attack me then that
>indicates I was attacked in the past etc.  Worth exploring ...

I think there's something here about feeling pushed away. Your post re
psyber-l as a meta list felt to me like a (possibly wilful) misreading of
what I had been trying to say and do on the list, and that coupled with the
tone of the post made me feel that I was being lectured to rather than
listened to. That in turn brought up feelings in me of being invisible - of
not being 'seen', yes, but also, reference our recent comments on dialogue,
of not being 'met'. I think I was already treading close to those feelings.
As I wrote previously:

"Part and parcel of this growing-up invisibility was a stifling of
emotional expression, and especially of anger - very much what you wrote
about a few weeks back, Walter, in connection with your own family
environment. So the exchange between Susan and JoAnne a few weeks back
really pushed a lot of buttons for me."

The quote from you was:
"I think I go a little over the top on valuing anger when I feel like
someone is trying to shut it up and have a *false niceness*  I hate that. I
grew up in a household which could cover up not
only anger but huge mountains of hate and rage!  I mean cover it up so none
of us knew it was there."

I am wondering now, doesn't it actually take effort *not* to meet someone,
in the sense of avoiding dialogue with them - that somehow there is an
effort in pushing away, even if itself unseen (an effort in the hiding,
too, perhaps).

Perhaps also it relates to the concept of holding the tension... though
this seems complicated, because holding the tension also feels like a way
of engaging with someone or something, a way of moving into a 'meeting
area' perhaps (or maybe, more accurately, an 'antechamber' to the meeting
area!). Then the releasing of that tension - walking through the open(ed)
doorway - brings about the meeting, or the feeling of being met (and this
happens within ourselves as well as between one another, I think).

So there's a cycle here, perhaps - or a spiral. Maybe the downward spiral
is an accumulation of tensions, the upward spiral a releasing of tensions.
We always come full circle in our psychological travels (travails?!) but
find ourselves at a slightly different elevation!

Walter, my sense is that the feeling of being pushed away was there in you
when you started the 'Thoughts and feelings' thread back in April, and that
it was expressed in that initial post when you talked about feeling alone
in the process. Perhaps that feeling of being alone was a result of you
having pushed something else away - or of having given the impression that
you did?

I think the uncomfortableness you refer to was already there in you when I
responded to your post, and my comment that you were self-absorbed only
served to amplify it. I would say that the impetus to respond to your post
came from a mixture of sympathy, discomfort and frustration - though you
might not have felt there was much sympathy from me! Your honest expression
struck a chord in me (your were trying to create something and you felt
alone and uncomfortable in that process) but it also jarred with me (to me,
you were ignoring other, unresolved, issues that seemed, to me, more
important within the context of the list - but maybe they were just more
important *for* me). Now I think you may feel, still, that I don't value
what I seemingly disparaged as the more abstract stuff. But really what I
didn't value was the imbalance I felt in the list between the emotional
(personal) and the abstract (impersonal). I know these crude binary
distinctions aren't ideal, but they reflect what I felt at the time - and
it's interesting how we move towards 'binary vision' when we're upset!

Of course there is scope for both the structural stuff and the emotional
stuff. Discussion of form, of the container, yes. Emotional content, that
which is contained, discusses itself through us, I think! And sometimes it
overflows the brim... Form is both around us and internalised within us.
There is interaction between 'container stuff' and 'contained stuff', as
well as an ebb and flow of each in the life of the list.

I think it's possible to talk about 'felt structure' in psyberspace - an
emotionally perceived structure, a kind of liquid architecture. This was
somewhat my experience in the social MOOspace, which was inherently
psychological space and also a wonderful text-based creative space, where
virtual 'rooms' could be built, furnished, and linked in any way
imagineable. Often the links ('entrances' and 'exits') were socially
embedded.  I would say that ultimately everyone created their own sense of
how the space was 'organised', and of how it *felt*. Hmmm, a little
digression there!


>>Also: If I say "Your post feels like this... and it feels like this
>>because of that in me...", is your post left untouched?
>
>I find it hard to relate to the "post", but I do not remain untouched.
> Even very clean and good communication, as you describe can affect me
>... as it should, as part of the "connecting" but also it might
>trigger things in me that you never intended and that were not even
>implied!  This happens!  I like to think of that as a Good Thing.

Ah! Perhaps I should have said 'uncriticised' rather than 'untouched'. But
if *you* are touched, and there is good communication between us, then you
are able to be openly self-critical, and to let me know what was going on
in your post.

I think it's about to-ing and fro-ing on a continuum between the extremes
of owning and disowning projections. Where we are on that continuum depends
on what we can see in ourselves, what we can see in one another, and how we
are prepared to act on that seeing. If I, at one extreme, say "Your post
makes me feel like this and it's *all your fault*." then we're not going to
get very far. But also if I say, at the other extreme, "Your post makes me
feel like this and it's *all my fault*." then we're not going to get very
far either. Both are exaggerations backed up by emotional investment. The
same situation applies if I say that everything bad that you see in me is a
projection on your part, but everything bad I see in you is you *as your
are*.


>>Is this the perspective of the therapist-patient relationship coming
>>through? Alongside and separate from...  Having an overview,
>>providing a container, yet not containing within yourself... always
>>being clear about barriers, always sticking to a role that is clear
>>about maintaining separation... Do I read this right?
>
>Hmmm ... very close but not quite it!  I am free to self-disclose in
>therapy, free to be moved, to be real, to be involved.  The bottom
>line is that it is doing no harm.  The optimum is that it is for the
>benefit of the client.  I feel contained within the container, the
>relationship with its transference and counter-transference *is* the
>therapeutic tool.

A clumsy 'outsider's view' on my part, I think. I always thought therapists
were supposed to be aloof - prodding and interpreting but not getting
involved (maybe I am confusing therapist with analyst here?). If you are
free to self-disclose, to be moved, to be real, to be involved, how is that
different from being here? And I assume that "doing no harm" is a bottom
line for you here as well. The question of who benefits is more open here,
I guess, but I'm assuming that even though you put the client's benefit
first in the relationship you also derive benefit from it.

Please excuse my naive stumblings, Walter! I'm just trying to understand
the essence of what goes on 'there' compared to 'here', in terms of the
interactions between people at the psychological level.


>Thus I would occasionally be in a meta dialogue with the client ... ie
>dialogue about the dialogue.  But that is rare and could lead to
>confusion for some clients and over-intellectualisation for others.
>In "supervision" it is a different matter, it needs to be more on the
>agenda there.

Wouldn't meta dialogue be a part of understanding patterns of interaction?
Or would it bring *you* too much into the frame? And what is "supervision"?


>Hmmmm ... I am not on about who is right ... but a meta galaxy gives
>me the image of a parallel galaxy, perhaps one in a different
>dimension.

Yes, what interests me is not 'right or wrong' but 'different ways of
seeing'. At the moment I'm still having trouble with your meta = parallel
equation - I'd like to 'see' your image. I'm glad (I think!) that you
introduced the concept of dimension...

A phrase was going around in my mind, "overwhelmed by the banality of
life", as some kind of curious parallel (heh!) thought process as I was
thinking about the extension of the notion of 'parallel' into multiple
dimensions... And I remembered a book called 'Multidimensional Man' written
by a mathematician, Ron Atkin, which had fascinated me many years ago. I
still have it, so I pulled it off the bookshelf, and on the back cover
found the quote: "3-dimensional space is only a banal slice of the
multidimensional structures we really live in...".

Then this from the preface:

"This book is a corner of that battlefield - where the mind and the spirit
are fighting it out as champions of 'form' and 'content'. Not that either
side can or should expect to win, but that peace comes only when one side
makes overtures to the other - and in a language which both can understand.
This is my offering for such an overture, and it is couched in a 'language
of structure' which, when spoken by both, allows the mathematician room for
his analysis and the artist space for his synthesis. I would like only to
think that it will help to bring the peace a little nearer."

I think there's some kind of meta process going on here ;)


>>And this time I feel pleasurable anticipation in waiting for your
>>next post... (though maybe I'll regret saying that!). Whenever you're
>>ready to catch the next wave!
>
>It has taken too long IMO to get back to this but "that is life" at my
>end of the screen.  Especially with my trip coming up.

I think the perspective on psyberspace that you outlined to Peter here a
few days ago should be part of any discussion on the Internet and society.
How can we as a society (and, from a global perspective, as a collection of
societies) use "the psychological power of the medium", as you put it, in a
way that is beneficial to everyone?

Walter, do you still plan to write from the conference, and about your
warm-up to it? I think that would be interesting and worthwhile.


>>A shadowette, perhaps?!
>
>Yes and I think others have entered in to the "test shadow" aspect of
>it by acknowledging and valuing the conversation ... more than that,
>finding it good to read ... that I think has helped a lot, thanks.

I have valued the responses here. I'm not naturally someone who steps into
the spotlight, but I feel okay with this ongoing dialogue - or, as HooN put
it so evocatively, this "feeling-infused open communication".

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 06:14:30 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing Julienne in the mirror
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998062817570343@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Hello Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, on Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:57:02 -0400 you
wrote:

>On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:20:47 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:
>
>
>>In the last couple of days I've seen more smileys and fanciful thinking and
>>lighthearted comments from you than probably in the entire previous month.
>>In the midst of what I thought you might feel as deep sorrow and
>>disappointment about someone being tortured RIGHT NOW and no one doing
>>anything about it, you are reveling in being "defended," purring like a
>>cat, making weird word-associations with rubber and still not doing a damn
>>thing.
>>
>>What on earth is going on?
>
>N:  She's joyful that she's getting her llamas back today, I think

Well, I'm glad she's getting her llamas back too.  Confused by her
reactions and inaction about what was one minute ago the greatest crime of
the century, though.

>.  Did you miss that?

I guess I missed the significance of it.

>What's going on with you?

If you mean in the prosaic sense:  Reading, gardening, shopping, cooking,
reading email, trying to get my mail list system to play well with others.
My usual weekend pursuits.

If you mean further down:  being confused.  Concerned for my boyfriend who
is under too much stress.  Dealing with some stress myself at work.
Worrying about Mom visiting this weekend for July 4th fireworks (the house
is a shambles).

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 03:49:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: seeing JoAnne in the mirror

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 06:14:30 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:

>Hello Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, on Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:57:02 -0400 you
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 21:20:47 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In the last couple of days I've seen more smileys and fanciful thinking and
>>>lighthearted comments from you than probably in the entire previous month.
>>>In the midst of what I thought you might feel as deep sorrow and
>>>disappointment about someone being tortured RIGHT NOW and no one doing
>>>anything about it, you are reveling in being "defended," purring like a
>>>cat, making weird word-associations with rubber and still not doing a damn
>>>thing.
>>>
>>>What on earth is going on?
>>What's going on with you?
>
>If you mean in the prosaic sense:  Reading, gardening, shopping, cooking,
>reading email, trying to get my mail list system to play well with others.
>My usual weekend pursuits.
>
>If you mean further down:  being confused.  Concerned for my boyfriend who
>is under too much stress.  Dealing with some stress myself at work.
>Worrying about Mom visiting this weekend for July 4th fireworks (the house
>is a shambles).

>My niece emailed me much the same  except with her masters in english and her seminary degree nobody can do intelligent runon paragraphs like she can..
>-JoAnne
>Still you're both competent youg women, I'm sure you'll manage, just fine, JoJo..  Just don't lite the fireworks till there out of the house.  Maybe a back run for the boy friend with his favorite fragrant oil, maybe sandalwood...
    Now 'ol mother west wind has spoken so she better blow.
                               Nancy
>PS I'm ready to agree wold = wood.  So be it!
____Also, do you think Simon's really back or did somebody just repost and old
message?
  And why do you suppose Walter issued a sixth welcome to Osoma?  Gee.  I
never even got one.  Don't you feel sorry for me JoJo?
__________________________________________________________
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 02:12:12 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: JoAnne's wondering
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At 09:20 PM 6/28/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:

>Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:57:25
>-0400 you wrote:

>Good lord Julienne.  You tell us that someone's life is in imminent danger,
>slavery and torture is being inflicted on this woman, and simultaneously
>you're detaching and dissociating so fast it makes my head spin.

AKSHUALLY - it was Dolores who told us most of this. We wanr to get
our facts correct here, don't we JoAnne?

>Is this whole episode only something reflecting on you and the way you want
>to be seen?  Does this woman mean anything to you other than as a hook to
>hang your pity on?

>In the last couple of days I've seen more smileys and fanciful thinking and
>lighthearted comments from you than probably in the entire previous month.
>In the midst of what I thought you might feel as deep sorrow and
>disappointment about someone being tortured RIGHT NOW and no one doing
>anything about it, you are reveling in being "defended," purring like a
>cat, making weird word-associations with rubber and still not doing a damn
>thing.
>
>What on earth is going on?

Amazing, JoAnne. You expect me to feel deep sorrow and disappointment
about this young girl, but not about my father's death. Or my mother's. Or
my 36 animals. So...let me get this straight: You don't want to hear about'
my grief for my parents, but you are outraged that I am not expressing
enough grief over this young woman? Such contradictions, JoAnne.

Well, JoAnne, maybe there's a lot wrong with your analysis of the situation.
Maybe you need to muster your left brain...

However, if I were a Cheshire Cat yesterday, tonight I am absolutely
the Cat's Meow!! Happy, happy, happy... meowrrrrrrr....:)
 "There are no finer cat than I am..."

And also sad about the young girl...

Julienne

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 02:32:48 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
In-Reply-To:  <35acb984.691296211@mail.qis.net>
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At 05:29 PM 6/28/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 27 Jun 1998 22:22:08
>-0400 you wrote:
>
>>Gawd!  This is fun. Is this like play-war for grown-ups?
>
>Did you mistake words for arrows?

No...no mistakes.:)

Gosh, no wonder you get so upset.

I think you must be mistaking me for someone you can upset. :)

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 02:37:43 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
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At 05:29 PM 6/28/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>Hello sc <hoon@APK.NET>, on Sat, 27 Jun 1998 20:06:44 -0500 you wrote:
>
>>JoAnne,
>>
>>>You're doing NOTHING too.
>>
>>I don't comprehend how you can tell what Julienne is, or is not doing, from
>>the emails she's been writing, except as that doing or not doing may regard
>>her writing email.
>>
>>Seems an illogical leap to be so sure she is doing nothing. How do you know?
>
>You have a point, I don't know.  I thought, however, that if she were doing
>anything we'd be hearing about it, in great detail.  Why would she contrast
>Walter's uncaring with her caring, if she could instead contrast Walter's
>inaction with her action?

Maybe you don't know me as well as you think, JoAnne...?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 03:52:30 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: [post 2 of 2] Re: [P] help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <l03130301b1bc2e31be2a@[38.29.10.29]>
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At 10:32 AM 6/28/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>All:
>
>I said I'd like to discuss *our discussion* of the situation in Texas, as a
>window on "psyche in cyberspace".  Here goes:

>The importance of calls for help and response to them, white knights on
>chargers,

As I understand it, HooN is the knight, and he is black, I think.
Why should knights be "white"?
This is to me another example of the distancing on this list.

>> the girl is 23, and has spent the last year as a slave to some guy
>> in Texas. This basically involves her confined to the house 24
>> hours a day, or if she is very lucky she gets a trip to a slave
>> party where she's publicly flogged and had by all. When I spoke
>> to her I asked her if he ever took her out, and she said, only into
>> the back yard.
>
>Anita quotes Apuleius:
>
>> it struck me that the girl lives like Psyche, who "was kept a close
>> captive within the walls of her luxurious prison and deprived of
>> all human conversation. She might not even bring consolation to
>> her sisters. Eros warned her again and again with words that
>> struck terror to the soul, never to let her sisters persuade her by
>> their ill counsels to inquire what her husband was like", as
>> Apuleus tells. All days long she was alone, and heard only
>> disembodied voices. By night Eros came and made love with her
>> in the darkness and departed in haste before the dawn. By days
>> she wept floods of tears, but nevertheless she said to Eros:
>> "Sooner would I die a hundred deaths than be robbed of your
>> sweet love.

"Love"? He keeps her isolated and abandoned and alone, as
has been the case for women for so long, and, like so many
women before, she has been persuaded that this is "love."
This is a male fantasy - to have a doll in a box on the shelf,
waiting to be taken down to play by the male.

For whoever you are, I love you and adore you
>> passionately". All others - her parents, her sisters - knew that
>> her husband was a monster-dragon, because the oracle had said
>> so.

They got it right!

>I don't get the sense that we have anything like the level of trust needed
>to run a full scale group game on a sister list to this one at the moment
>-- but I could imagine playing a "solo" game on list with these eight
>ideas, attempting in effect to write an essay that would honor each in
>turn, and explore the twin issues of "romanticizing and distancing" and "
>beautiful and meaningful myth -- suffering human being", which I've already
>said are issues that touch my passion for grappling with our human
>condition to the quick.
>
>That would be quite a task, both in "writing" -- it would need to be an
>extended "essay game" and might easily run 3,000 words -- and more
>importantly in self examination: I would be putting my own deeply and
>passionately held beliefs and intuitions to the test.
>
>If that's a project that would interest privacy, authoriship and
>permissions in another post for your approval before proceeding.

I'm sorry, Charles, I am too worried about her, about whether she
is real, and what is happening to her, what can be done - to join in any
theoretical "game" about this.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:27:40 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Julienne/Hoon
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980627214536.010d0620@postoffice.att.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Dear Julienne


I forwent the pleasure of responding to both you and Hoon for a day,
because I was having a period and I wanted to gauge just exactly how much
that was influencing what I wrote when I wrote it.

First, to Hoon, Yep indeed my mother would say little things please little
minds, course the diference is she'd say that to me when I was 8, and now
I'm saying it to you when your -what?

Next Julienne, while it would be mildly amusing to slice and dice you, I
have no intention of doing so. I could sit here and reply to every one of
your comments, and have a field day doing it, probably what has stopped me
is when I opened my mailbox and read Nancys ant mail, I errupted into a fit
of giggles that has made vitrioluic banter near impossible and the words
from the Talmud about wisdom and kindness, I considered long and deeply and
can't find as single argument with.

So, I've decided to leave you alone and turn my attention instead to the
mighty Hoon. I want to give him the chance to completly fuck up a situation
that needs careful and sensitive handling. Thus I have invited him to join
the Mud where this girl hangs out, so he can ensure in one fell swoop, that
she disappears off the internet forever.
Hoon, is going to have to do some roleplay to even get her to talk to him.
In fact, he's going to have to pretend to be my slave so she can talk to
him on her level. Theres a few other things I'll mention to him as and when
he gets there. The shock might kill him were I to mention them now.

I realise that I am guilty now of tying to prove a point, and I'm using
this girl to do it. That is in itself disgusting,but the almighty Hoon
seems to think this is the way. I'm putting it in his hands now, and he
fucks up as I know he will, by sending in the cavalry etc, before I've even
decided if this girl is telling the truth or not..then the point is made at
her expense, but that won't be on my concience. My concience is now clear
because I've invited Hoon in to bulldoze the situation, bulldoze my guilt,
bulldoze my responsibility and bulldoze any chance of getting her to admit
to herself and to somebody else what is actually going on.
None of the above is what she needs, but it will do my concience a world of
good, to know that I handed it all over to Hoon and he did what he thought
was best.

Back to you Julienne, I deleted a whole email that went in your direction.
I'm rather proud of that, I think I'm growing up. Of course I'm only 33, so
I have a bit of growing left in me. Not that I mean to make comparisons
here. I'm beyond being petty, these days.

Love

Dolores.








>Julienne wrote:
>
>>>A guess rarely has a 99.9% chance of being correct. Those of us who are
>>>logical and reasoning and objective know that. <g>
>>
>>I guess I'll be dead within 90 years. Correct, not 99.9% correct..but 100%.
>>Logical, reasoning, objective..hmm, I'd rather die of boredom.
>
>Then you probably will.
>
>However, to topic: there's your .01%!
>
>>>HooN, on behalf of protocol, I hereby invite you, and anyone else
>>>on this list, to jump on your white or black or spotted charger, or
whatever
>>>is at hand, to tackle any dragons a-scaring me, because I am no more
>>>equipped than
>>>anyone else to always defend myself adequately - and have done such a
>>>pitiful job
>>>of it this past year that I am still hurting - and you are all welcome to
>>>do it for
>>>me at any time, without any specific invitation whatsoever.  And I will be
>>>most grateful, and will
>>>certainly do it for any others when I feel it is right, unless you
>>>specifically tell me you
>>>don't want me to.
>
>>>First, I do not accept that I attacked JoAnne the way she attacked me. I
>>>was not the protagonist, and I am sure if you got anyone from outside
>>>to read it all through (what a waste of lifetime) that it would not look
>>>like just a quid pro quo.
>>
>>I might consider a waste of a lifetime would be the endless tooing and
>>froing and she said, he said, or in this case, she said, she said. And I
>>never did this, and she said I did and...
>
>D'accord. Totally.
>
>>>Second, are we back on gender wars? Did HooN only do this because I am
>>>a woman and he is a man?  Are men only allowed to defend men, and
>>>women defend women, in DoloresWorld?
>
>>In Dolores world I'd have slung you off the list ages ago, but this is Walt
>>world. In Dolores world everybody fights their own battles and nobody sits
>>on the fence. Dolores world however is my world and
>
>Well, in JulieWorld we have better things to do than fight battles
>all the time. And if you've never sat on a fence you don't know what
>you've missed. :)
>
>I get the message Dolores - you're big and tough and wow can you kick
>ass.
>Borrrrrrring...!!
>
>>>I have to say I am getting a wonderful giggle out of this. First of all,
>>>because it does feel all warm and cuddly to be defended - makes
>>> me feel much safer in the world.
>
>>Lovely, a sentiment every feminist in Dolores World would be proud to hear.
>
>Hmmmm...do you think men don't like to feel safe, Dolores?
>
>And do feminists have to ape macho men?  Quelle erreur!
>Thought kind of feminism never existed in JulieWorld - that is
>waaaaaay passe and retro.
>
>> But also because I am wondering where you were when
>>>I was attacked???? How come it was all right for you and Anita and JoAnne
>>>and Wilbur to shred me to pieces while Walter stood absently by, without
>>>anyone objecting, but suddenly there are objections when I'm being
>>>DEFENDED???? Ola!!!
>
>>Point out one email where I shredded you to pieces? I lay off shredding
>>people to pieces because there is a nasty streak in me thats not tempered
>>by civilised prose or intelligent arguement, but rather at stating things
>>as they are. I think you might not like to see that, but then again, tempt
>>me and you never know what might happen. Won't be able to resist that one
>>will you Julienne?
>
>
>Omigod!!! HooN!!! Help me!!  Saddle up!!!!
>
>Come on, Dolores, go back and check what you wrote.
>
>>>What's wrong with this picture? Could some be happier with aggression
>>>than kindness?
>
>>I would reply..but I' am not going to. Because I've learnt the meaning of
>>restraint.
>
>Admirable. :)
>
>>>Well, I'm going back to my little nest to purr for a while. :):):):):)
>>>
>>And I leave my nest to go sharpen my talons
>
>Oh no! Not the DREADED TALONS????????
>
>Gawd!  This is fun. Is this like play-war for grown-ups?
>
>It's okay HooN, I can take care of this one. I'm feeling very brave and
>preenful since my encounter with the Hero. I have become invincible!
>Claw as you like, Dolores...'twill merely glance off my feathery armour. :)
>
>Love,
>
>Julienne the Intrepid.
>
>PS What is such a Ferocious Person such as yourself, Dolores,
>doing on a Submission Site? Inquiring minds want to know...<giggle>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:28:20 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Miles
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.1.32.19980620014006.006ed85c@wn.planet.gen.nz>
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>> Dolores, were you aware of the parallels? It is as if you invented the
>> story so that we could look at the depths of another ... which of course
>> also points to a greater depth. I know hat you did not do that Dolores, but
>> how does it happen that light from one story shines on the other?
>
>
>Is this story "TRUE" or "NOT TRUE" this is an important
>question.

I didn't understand the question anyway. If somebody would care to put it
in plainer English?

>if it *is* true, then best response from the list
>would be for someone trained and who knows what they are talking about
>to do as they see fit. My choice would be a woman of the
>"womans shelter" heroic variety, whom I personally
>see as the best saviours for this dilemma

This was sort of my hope, but rather a councellor from the list might go
talk to her on IRC.

>disturbing process it seems to me, this blurring of
>fantasy and reality thing, but wtf

That is the trouble with this place.


i feel somewhat the same
>way about the " 'heavy duty legal forces' at
>the Hoons dispoal"  idea
>which to my minds seems a bit of a
>generally messed up concept though I cant
>be specific.
> ;-)
>
In my mind, entirely the wrong course of action.
>
>> Dolores wrote:
>> She doesn't want to help herself, until she reaches that choice, and
>> who am I to say she needs help or not, because she's not acting within
>> acceptable norms, dose that make them wrong because they are not my
>
>> who in their right mind would? Of course I fitted fire alarms, but when the
>> batteries ran out, I haven't bothered to replace them. Irresponsible maybe
>> but does that mean I'm abnormal? insane? Gaga? (Apparently only if I am
>> tied to the bed, or in a cage under the stairs at the time said fire
>occurs.)
>
>(notice the change in person ..)

I noticed, and if you want to know the truth, this whole thing scares me,
goes to places I can't and shouldn't go. I have one foot in the way this
girl thinks, she is not me in case anybody is wondering. I don't want to go
here, its a dangerous place for me, places I've learnt not to visit
anymore. I want and need to distance myself from it, while doing as much as
I can.

>We recently had a case here in NZ where a man was put into
>jail for keeping a woman as a slave, I think in Auckland,
>don't know the details but, I guess, it may well have
>involved BDSM.

Against her will?


>So the law is similar to that here in NZ don't
>know about the US but then if youz would legalise semi-automatic
>assualt weapons for 'use' around the home,
>then god knows what you would do for 'freedom'.
>
I'd never seen a gun till I went to the states. I got the chance to fire
one. To me it seemed like a toy. Not the menacing thing I had imagined. I
am glad Britain doesn't have gun laws pro gun ownership. After Dunblane its
now virtually impossible to own one.
>
>I am / have learnt some things in this thread.
>
>The best of which was...
>> The highest form of wisdom is kindness. - Talmud
>
I agree, i think after the age of learning comes the age of wisdom (In your
early 30's)and I am learning kindness. Not sure what comes after wisdom,
enlightenment I hope.
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:29:38 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: burning slavegirls
In-Reply-To:  <v04011704b1bc1973eb6e@[207.54.160.74]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Hoon

Ok you think you called my Bluff? Wish you'd told me we were playing such
infantile games.

If you would care to meet me on the Mud I talk to this girl on we will see
what Sir Hoon is actually willing to do.

You need to download a copy of zmud and then get access to a mud called
Afterlife.

Once you've done that let me know.

I don't think you've got the gumption for any kind of tact, but I remain to
be  suitably astonished. I am worried since I have given you her name on
here. Its going to take several days for you to win her trust enough to
talk to you, but lets see how much Sir Hoon the self righteous is actually
willing to put into this.

Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 13:30:09 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: [post 1 of 2] Re: [P] help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <l03130300b1bc150cd303@[38.29.10.29]>
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>"How can you just sit there on your hands chatting about psyche?" would be
>one side of the matter, and "How can you jump up and act when you haven't
>investigated the implications?" would be the other -- and for my money,
>*both* signal worthy responses to a human situation, *neither one* seems to
>me to lack feeling.
>
>*
>
>I personally feel it would be good to contact (i) someone with the kind of
>training and experience that comes with running an abused women's shelter
>(thanks, Miles) and (ii) someone with the kind of experience and
>sensitivity that comes with long participation in the dom / sub culture
>(thanks, Dolores) -- and if both of these kinds of training / expertise /
>sensitivity were agreed that intervention was required, to put them in
>contact with the sort of legal and law enforcement experts that Hoon has
>access to (thanks, Hoon).
>
>My reading of Dolores' most recent posts suggests that the dom / sub
>culture would be far from certain that intervention would be a positive,
>and my reading of Anne Rice, the History of O and other sub / dom
>literature suggests that there *are* in fact people whose sexual fantasies
>extend pretty far in the direction described.  Like most of us, I find this
>thought strange and somewhat frightening, and cannot tell at what point to
>draw -- cannot tell whether the "master" is a dangerous sociopath or not.
>
>Because that's the key for me, the real issue as far as danger to life and
>limb is concerned: the "master".
>
>And he's the one we know *least* about.
>
>For me, personally, then, this is an issue of potential "crisis"
>proportions, calling for action specifically from those whose sensitivity
>and wisdom (and authority) is greater than mine.


Amen to everything you wrote Charles, it is how I feel and my dillema and
how its not just one thing or another, but an awful lot of issues and
dilemas rolled into one. Your advice is the best so far in terms of exactly
the kind of person needed to help her.
It is also beyond both my sensitivity and wisdom.


>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:21:31 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: burning slavegirls
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980629132938.007b43c0@easynet.co.uk>
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>Dear Hoon
>
>Ok you think you called my Bluff? Wish you'd told me we were playing such
>infantile games.
>
>If you would care to meet me on the Mud I talk to this girl on we will see
>what Sir Hoon is actually willing to do.

Actually, what I wrote to Miles was:

 "Look at it this way, I called Dolores's bluff."

***

Dolores,

I'm not going to logon to the MUD with you, be your 'slave', and try to
earn slavegirl's trust.

If you think she is in danger which will require authorities on the ground
to rush in and pluck her out of that situation, I may be able to help hook
you up with those authorities pending your supplying of specific
information about her location.

Again, if she's happy, I'm happy. I'm quite alright with taking your word
for it.

***

sincerely,

HooN

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Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:16:58 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: [post 2 of 2] Re: [P] help Required..
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Charles,

you wrote:

> I don't get the sense that we have anything like the level of trust needed
> to run a full scale group game on a sister list to this one at the moment

I am reading this as the end of the proposed GBG with Julienne and Joanne
as the principals.  Charles, I want to discuss this more with you and
others.  No disrespect is intended as i speak about others in the third
person.

I can see that there are various directions where you might see mistrust at
the moment.  Yet I think it is not quite mistrust that is the issue,
mistrust is, in part what a "resolution GBG" can attend to, resolve.

It makes sense to me that you signal the end of the GBG proposal because to
have an effective game it would, as I think you mentioned, require that the
principals desired a resolution.   Julienne partly agreed and partly
objected to the proposed game and has ignored several requests from both
you and me to finalize preliminary discussion.  The GBG proposal, as a
possible way of finding resolutions are then stalled, allowing the conflict
to continue.

There has also been a shift in the conflict between JoAnne and Julienne and
in the grappling on the list.  To see JoAnne and Julienne as the
"principals" may not even fit at this point.  I sense that consciously and
unconsciously we are living the psyche here and there are many plots
interwoven and shining light on each other.  The proposal and the demise of
the GBG has played its part upon our stage, and we are richer for it.
Could it be that each of us playing our part, irritating as it may be to
others, forms the very ingredients we need in this crucible?  I think so,
and can even find a prayer of thanks for that!

I say "even" because on the whole i am disturbed and troubled!  I feel sad
that your offer and our plans fade.  Even acute stabs at times are not
deterring me from a trust in the process here at the moment.  Thoughts that
i had a day or more ago that somehow there was something wrong with our
list have faded.  I have a sense of a solid little holding place for what
we are up to here.

~~~

> -- but I could imagine playing a "solo" game on list with these eight
> ideas, attempting in effect to write an essay that would honor each in
> turn, and explore the twin issues of "romanticizing and distancing" and "
> beautiful and meaningful myth -- suffering human being", which I've already
> said are issues that touch my passion for grappling with our human
> condition to the quick.
>
> That would be quite a task, both in "writing" -- it would need to be an
> extended "essay game" and might easily run 3,000 words -- and more
> importantly in self examination: I would be putting my own deeply and
> passionately held beliefs and intuitions to the test.
>
> If that's a project that would interest privacy, authoriship and
> permissions in another post for your approval before proceeding.

Are you suggesting that you write this as an essay here in the list,
quoting others and so on?  That is of course well within the scope of the
list, and no further permission is required.  As you know even though the
archives are public, the use of our words, outside this list, requires the
permission of the person who wrote them.  I feel ok about your use, in any
context, of words i have written.  Thinking about it further, if have
written about others who could be identified, I would also want them to
give permission.

~~~

Charles, one more thing.  Even though the proposed group game may not
eventuate, I would like to see some other venture in the future.  I am
aware that we still have the DreamEvent to write up and that to do that
might be a useful prelude to more Hipbone games associated with Psybernet.
What do you think?


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:16:50 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: burning slavegirls
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Dear Hoon,

O.K all petiness and stupidity aside.
I apologise for pettiness and stupidity, where I actually knew I was
indulging in it.
I can't find a way to get to this girl that doesn't require covert action.
I cannot say to her, as I would like, What the hell are you playing at?

I can't get her address by asking her directly, I have to pussy foot round
all the things she tells me.

I don't think she is in danger, I am not entirely convinced its not a
derranged product of some fantastic imagination.

I'm doing my best.



Dolores.

P.S I wasn't kidding about the slave boy thing :)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:55:36 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      GBG: current status, new project
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Julienne, all:

First off, I'm happy to learn that your llamas are now coming back where
they belong, Julienne.  I imagine the entire situation has been keeping you
pretty busy, and take it that this explains at least in part why you
haven't answered the longish posts about my original "group" GBG and
Walter's role in it.  But all that's water under the bridge in any case...
Congratulations.

*

To respond to your message today..  I'd written, and you quoted me:

>I don't get the sense that we have anything like the level of trust
> needed to run a full scale group game on a sister list to this one at
> the moment -- but I could imagine playing a "solo" game on list
> with these eight ideas, attempting in effect to write an essay that
> would honor each in turn, and explore the twin issues of
> "romanticizing and distancing" and "beautiful and meaningful
> myth -- suffering human being", which I've already said are issues
> that touch my passion for grappling with our human condition to
> the quick.

and you responded:

> I'm sorry, Charles, I am too worried about her, about whether she
> is real, and what is happening to her, what can be done - to join
> in any theoretical "game" about this.

Just for the record, let me say again that I do not think we have the
mutual trust at this time to run the GBG group as originally proposed.

That project has been indefinitely postponed.

*

The project I am now proposing is one that I would do myself, by myself, in
response to those words of yours which I quoted, Julienne:

> She is not a beautiful "slave-girl" in a beautiful and meaningful
> myth - but a suffering human being.

That remark challenges me: I take it very seriously, because it pithily
raises the entire question of the relationship of myth to lived reality.  I
can't ignore this question: now that you have raised it so clearly I am
going to have to explore it, and see how I myself can come to terms with
the issue of myth and life in light of it.

*

This exploration would be a "work" by Charles Cameron -- something I would
write for the same reasons that I have been working on a book called
"Mythologic" for the past ten or so years -- and would not involve input
from this list or yourself in the way that the "group game" would have.  It
would, however, carry an acknowledgment of your role in triggering my
thoughts about the issue, unless you would prefer it not to.

I can work on this in two ways: one, by playing a "solo" game using the
eight quotes I listed as eight "moves", or two, by writing an essay about
myth and life and the difficult relation between them *without* the use of
the game structure, and *without* the use of the quotes.

My own preference would be to write using the "game" format, because I
designed the format as a way to avoid the linearity of the essay form in
discussing topics relating to the human psyche, and to clarify the
juxtaposition of different points of view in a way that the segues "and on
the hand", "meanwhile", "contrast this with", "but we should also perhaps
consider" and so forth can never quite pull off.

To me, these "segue" tropes are all too often clear signals that the topic
under discussion is *not* linear but "polyphonic", and that the limitations
of the linear essay form are strained to their limits.  I think we need a
new model for "polyphonic" writing.  Writers as distinguished as Julio
Cortazar and Jorge Luis Borges also seem to be of this opinion, Hermann
Hesse presented his own version of the idea and called it "the Glass Bead
Game"...

*

I have devised my own lterary "form" for this purpose, taking advantage of
the current interest in hypertextual media, and like Hesse's GBG it also
allows the quotation of non-textual media -- putting it very much in line
with Sven Birkerts' recent remark in an interview conducted with him by
Cliff Becker of the National Endowment for the Arts:

::  There are tremendous opportunities, and we are probably on the
::  brink of the birth of whole new genres of art which will work
::  through electronic systems. These genres will likely be multi-
::  media in ways we can't imagine. Digitalization, the idea that the
::  same string of digits can bring image, music, or text, is a huge
::  revolution in and of itself. When artists begin to grasp the
::  creative possibilities of works that are neither literary, visual, or
::  musical, but exist using all three forms in a synthetic collage
::  fashion, an enormous artistic boom will occur.

I don't think the "multimedia" possibilities of the HipBone format would be
particularly relevant in this instance, but the hypertextual / polyphonic /
nonlinear aspect would be -- and as a writer I'd definitely prefer to use
the nonlinear form of discourse on this occasion, rather than trying to
impose a linear "essay" form on what seems to me to be a work of synthesis.


But I can go either way, and certainly won't use the HipBone format if you
or either of the two others (Dolores, Anita) whom I'd need to quote would
object to my using their words.  As I say, we can discuss the details of
quotation, editing, privacy, pseudonymity, attribution, and so forth in as
much detail as is necessary to ensure that each of you feels comfortable
with the outcome...

*

So, coming back to your remark about your joining in a "game" at this point
-- and you're right, the word "game" is in some ways misleading, and
*needs* quotation marks -- I'm not proposing a group project, I'm saying
that I am going to write up my own response to an important issue which
your words, Julienne, triggered for me -- because I'm a writer and that's
how I get to grips with things.

I'd like to use the literary form I've devised for just such purposes.  It
is central to a larger project I'm working on to do with Hesse's Game and
the present situation in the arts, which has drawn favorable comment from
people like the Editor of Harpers and the literary critic Frederick Turner
-- and I suppose I'm very lucky that what started out as an attempt on my
part to provide a tool for exploring the imaginative process turns out to
have viability too as a "game" in the sense of a an entertainment: I may
even get paid for it at some point.

My reasons for wanting to use it on this occasion, however, have to do with
my sense that the issue you raise is not one that is best resolved by
linear argument, but by comparison and juxtaposition.  To my mind, that in
itself speaks to the importance of the issue, for as the Nobel laureate
Niels Bohr once said:

::  The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the
::  opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound
::  truth.

*

I have some other comments on your post as it concerns "Psyche and Eros",
and will send them separately.

Best to all,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:49:47 -0700
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Subject:      Re: [post 2 of 2] Re: [P] help Required..
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Julienne, all:

It's a small matter, but one that I'd like to clear up before moving on to
other matters, since it concerns "race" and / or "color".

As most of you you may remember, my (late) guardian from the age of ten was
Trevor Huddleston -- the man Archbishop Tutu and others credit with being
the single most influential voice raised against apartheid on the global
stage.

It's almost funny to say this, but Trevor was "white", and was in fact
"knighted" for his services in opposition to racial prejudice and in favor
of human beings of all kinds shortly before his death -- so I've actually
known an heroic "white knight" in both sense of both words quite closely...
and am under no illusions that skin color has anything to do with heroic
qualities or their absence.

In my post yesterday, I mentioned:

> white knights on chargers,

to which you, Julienne, responded:

> As I understand it, HooN is the knight, and he is black, I think.
> Why should knights be "white"?
> This is to me another example of the distancing on this list.

I think "white knight" is probably quite an old phrase suggesting "knight
on the side of goodness and light" although there's also the hint of chess
and the white knight from Alice by the time the phrase reaches me.  I'm not
sure who first used the phrase in this particular context on Psyber-L, but
JoAnne had used it in a post on Thu, 25 Jun 1998, while in his post "[P]
burning slavegirls" on Sunday, Hoon himself wrote:

> Obviously, it is easy for me to inhabit the fantastic white knight
> role sitting here waiting for the information to come to me.

I was using the phrase that others had used, that's all.  And like Hoon, I
have some suspicions about the "white knight on charger" concept, not so
much as it applies to real heroes, but as it applies to wannabes.  But
that's a different though interesting issue...

Onward to the rest of your post...

*

I also quoted the myth of *Psyche and Eros*, and it was the figure of Eros
as portrayed *at one specific point* in the development of that myth of
which you then said:

> "Love"? He keeps her isolated and abandoned and alone, as has
> been the case for women for so long, and, like so many women
> before, she has been persuaded that this is "love." This is a male
> fantasy - to have a doll in a box on the shelf, waiting to be taken
> down to play by the male.

Let's take the "myth as a whole" first, and then "this specific point in
the myth".

If this -- meaning the myth of Psyche and Eros as a whole -- is a male
fantasy exclusively, then it's a most intriguingly placed one, since
Apuleius in his larger work *The Golden Ass* which contains the myth of
Psyche and Eros puts forward what Robert Graves calls the "most
comprehensive and inspired account of the Goddess in all of ancient
literature":

::  I am she that is the natural mother of all things, mistress and
::  governess of all the elements, the initial progeny of worlds, chief
::  of the powers divine, queen of all that are in Hell, the principal
::  of them that dwell in Heaven, manifested alone and under one
::  form of all the gods and goddesses.  At my will the planets of
::  the sky, the wholesome winds of the seas, and the lamentable
::  silences of hell be disposed; my name, my divinity is adored
::  throughout the world, in divers manners, in variable customs,
::  and by many names.  For the Phrygians which are the first of all
::  men call me The Mother of the Gods at Pessinus; the Athenians,
::  which are sprung from their own soil, Cecropian Minerva; the
::  Cyprians, which are girt about by the sea, Paphian Venus; the
::  Cretans which bear arrows, Dictynnian Diana; the Sicilians,
::  which speak three tongues, Infernal Proserpine; the Eleusinians,
::  their ancient goddess Ceres; some Juno, other Bellona, other
::  Hecate, other Rhamnusia, and principally both sort of the
::  Ethiopians which dwell in the Orient and are enlightened by the
::  rays of the morning sun, and the Egyptians, which are excellent
::  in all kind of ancient doctrine and by their proper ceeremonies
::  accustom to worship me, do call me by my true name, Queen
::  Isis.  Behold, I am come to take pity of thy fortune and
::  tribulation; behold, I am present to favour and aid thee; leave off
::  thy weeping and lamentation, put away all thy sorrow, for
::  behold the beautiful day which is ordained by my providence.

Should we consider all worship of Minerva, Venus, Diana, Proserpine, Ceres,
Hecate, Isis -- of the triple Goddess -- to be a male fantasy too?  And
what *is* the relationship between "fantasy" and "myth", how *do* "male
fantasies" agree with or differ from "female fantasies", and "male myths"
agree with or differ from "female myths"?

One of the most interesting conundrums in mythic and feminist scholarship
from my point of view is the poet Robin Morgan's obvious strong affection
for Robert Graves' book, *The White Goddess*.  Morgan was, maybe still is,
one of the most radical of feminist essayists -- yet she admires the man
they call "the Patriarch of Deya"  enough to have written a poem for him.

The deeper issue, then, is whether male and female "versions" of the
goddesses and gods do in fact correspond -- in which case there seems to be
a strong prognosis for eventual full and mutual harmony between the sexes
-- or whether they are inalienably different, in which case such a harmony
would have to be won "against the grain" of our deepest dreams and
imaginings.

Quite a question.

You may on the other hand have been referring *only* to the specific
"master / slave" episode as a "male fantsay" -- in which case I think the
myth would suggest it's a potent "female fantasy" too, and then the
question becomes whether the woman is not the one principally
"mythologizing and depersonalizing" herself (see below), and needing to be
awoken...

In which case, too, the myth may have something to tell us.

*

You go on to quote Anita's brief rendition of another passage from Apuleius:

> All others - her parents, her sisters - knew that her husband was
> a monster-dragon, because the oracle had said so.

and say:

> They got it right!

This is the opinion of those (in the story) who are scared shitless by
Eros, and jealous of Psyche into the bargain.  It is also (and for perhaps
different reasons) the opinion of Apollo.  And it is Neumann's view of this
episode too...

So let's continue with the story, and Neumann's commentary, because the
sisters here are very important.  They too have a role to play in the
drama, it's just not the central role...  and the point at which Psyche is
in thrall to Eros in this way ("enthralled" by Love) is an early and
hellish "dark" point in her own awakening:

::  We must wholly disregard the surface intrigue if we wish to
::  understand the real function and meaning of this irruption of the
::  shadow-sisters.  Paradoxical as it may seem, the sisters represent
::  an aspect of the feminine consciousness that determines
::  Psyche's whole subsequent development, and without which she
::  would not be what she is, namely the feminine psyche.  Despite
::  its negative form, the anti-masculine and murderous agitation of
::  the sisters embodies a true resistance of the feminine nature
::  against Psyche's situation and attitude, the beginning of a higher
::  feminine consciousness.  Not that the sisters represent this
::  consciousness, they are only its shadow, that is, negative,
::  precursor.  But if Psyche succeeds in attaining this higher level,
::  it is only because she starts by subordinating herself to the
::  negative directive of her sisters.  It is only by breaking the taboo
::  that Eros has imposed on her, by responding to the seduction of
::  her sisters, that she comes into conflict with Eros, who, as we
::  shall show, is the foundation of her own development...

::  For all with its rapture is this existence in the sensual paradise of
::  Eros not an unworthy existence?  Is it not a state of blind,
::  though impassioned, servitude, against which a feminine self-
::  consciousness -- and such is the matriarchal attitude of the
::  feminine -- must protest, against which it must raise all the
::  arguments which are raised by the sisters?  Psyche's existence is
::  a non-existence, a being-in-the-dark, a rapture of sexual
::  sensuality which may fittingly be characterized as a being
::  devoured by a demon, a monster.  Eros as an unseen fascination
::  is everything that the oracle of Apollo, cited by the sisters, has
::  said of him, and Psyche really is his victim.

That's the comment at this point from the most respected of modern
commentators on the myth, and it suggests that the erotic "thrall" is
indeed demonic, though Eros is a God.  From the sisters' point of view,
it's Psyche herself who is trapped in a "romanticized and
deperersonalizing" myth of herself, and who needs to be reminded that she
is, in your words:

> not a beautiful "slave-girl" in a beautiful and meaningful myth -
> but a suffering human being.

That's the exact point we're at in the story, and seemingly in the Texas
situation too -- and if the myth has anything to teach us about how to
resolve such a situation, it would be that the "sisters" should *tell* her
precisely that, after which the *next move* would be for the woman herself
to challenge, consciously (or rather with the beginnings of consciousness)
her situation and her "Master".

That's the myth, and it appears to contain its own critique of unconscious
absorption in mythic fantasies...

As the story develops thereafter, Jove will eventually "set some curb upon
the wild passions" of Eros' "youthful prime" and see to it that his "wanton
spirit of boyhood" is "enchained in the fetters of wedlock".  It is only
then (and as much to "curb" Eros as to honor Psyche) that Psyche is made an
immortal, and the marriage of Eros and Psyche celebrated:

::  The Hours made all things glow red with roses and other
::  flowers, the Graces sprinkled balsam, and the Muses made
::  melody with tuneful voices.  Apollo accompanied his lyre
::  with song, fair Venus danced with steps that kept time to the
::  sweet music played by the orchestra she had provided; for the
::  Muses chanted in chorus or blew the flute, while Satyr and
::  young Pan played upon the pipe of reed.  Thus did Psyche with
::  all solemnity become Amor's bride, and soon a daughter was
::  born to them: in the language of mortals she is called pleasure.

*

As Hoon said, "grist for our mill".

Best to all,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:43:50 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: current status, new project
In-Reply-To:  <l03130300b1bd76f2cf79@[38.29.10.59]>
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At 09:55 AM 6/29/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>Julienne, all:
>
>First off, I'm happy to learn that your llamas are now coming back where
>they belong, Julienne. I imagine the entire situation has been keeping you
>pretty busy,

Thank you, Charles. However, the story is more complicated.
When I last moved, I stored everything the children and I owned,
including our animals, all my books, clothes, etc., with a farmer
in New York State. I went to Australia to lecture, and at the invitation
of some people who wanted to start a business with me. A few months
later, when I called my mother on her birthday, she told me she had
lung cancer which had metastacized to her liver. So I got on a plane
back from Australia that night to come to look after my mother.

I then tried to get my things, and to move the llamas to a new farm
because the farmer was not taking care of them properly. The farmer
had said he wanted them out of there. However, when the new people
arrived to pick up the llamas, the farmer threatened them (all of us)
with a gun. He refused to give them back for me, and tried to charge
me an extra $10,000 for the 5 months he had had the animals and
our belongings. That was in April 1996. He then tried to sell everything
my children and I owned at auction, and so we had to go to court to
stop him. It took until now to get all that settled. Although we had a
contract in writing, and although he had been paid the full amount
of the contract, he was still able to simply file papers to claim our
things. He didn't even have to prove anything or appear in court.

In the meantime, he has killed every male llama I owned,
(the last one in the last few weeks, it seems ) and some of

the females, because he kept them emprisoned instead of pastured,
and didn't inoculate them against the diseases (meningeal worm from
white-tailed deer) which can killed them. There are now 8 llama left,
but 8 have died, at least. He also killed my Maine Coon cats with
Sevin, and claimed a cult must have snuck into his house to do it -
although there was no evidence of a breakin. He also tortured and
starved the cats. These were our pets, and he let them get pregnant,
and 16 kittens were part of what died, plus nearly every one of our
pets. One had both feet broken in the back, very low down, in a way that
two vets said could only have happened from a violent kick. Couldn't
have been an accident.

I then spent most of the last two years taking care of both my parents,
until they died. During that period, we also had to be in court, with a
judge who read a newspaper during testimony, and didn't believe
our vets or other witnesses. He also didn't believe that I had come
home because my mother was dying. My children and I were told by
my lawyer that we would not be able to get our things back without
paying what the farmer wanted, which by then had grown to $30,000.
We had nightmares about the animals - actually I had panic attacks
at first,  and was just horribly sick thinking about their deaths. I saw
some die - one died on the day I picked her up - on the way home.
He wouldn't let me take them all the first day, and another, who had
beem horribly weak, died by the time I came 3 days later. Now I
am so disgusted - the system doesn't protect anyone unless you
get in there are and fight like hell, and it doesn't always then.

I finally gave up on the lawyer being any real help, and solved it
all myself.  When we got back the last cats, they weighed about
3 pounds, some were in shock, and kikectic. They were also more
infested with fleas than my vets had ever seen. And I have known
this vet, and his father before him, for 32 years.

I was supposed to be getting the llamas earlier this week, but again
the farmer threw a fit and stopped it. The people who for two years
were going to take them, have now decided they can't deal with him,
and so have backed out. However, after days on the phones, calling
the International Llama Association, etc., I have a new man, who is willing
to look after them for me, and so now it's just a matter of coordinating
schedules. He's not afraid of this farmer. The farmer is in his seventies -
and has a terrible temper.

However - the good news. Yesterday, my son and several other strong
men went up to the barn and got the last of my possessions.
(there are just a few things left.) Things I thought I'd never see again.
It's strange when you think you've lost everything, what becomes
important - what you obsess about. I had an oriental black pearl and
black desk which I got in Hong Kong, full of things from all over the
world. (in the drawers).I had a red spandex skirt and top, much racier
than the more feminine things I wear ( really sexy - something a friend
bought for me - and so different), and I had 4 diaries from 1956-60,
which were important to me because they are very revealing
developmentally - and other things like that. I found every single

one of them. I am just amazed. The televisions and washing machine
and things like that are stolen, and a beautiful 8 foot metal filagree
screen painted by an artist is gone...but TVs and such can be replaced.
Diaries and memories and red spandex can't. :) I also found my books
and writings... Some of my clothes and shoes are destroyed, same with
the kids' - but they can be replaced. Our furniture is also mush destroyed -
sofas have become mouse-homes and will have to be chucked. Carpets
shredded. Creatures in the mattresses which must be thrown away.

So - that was one of the underlying themes of the past two years.
This didn't just keep me busy Charles - between all these things,
losing my parents, my home, my animals, my "stuff" - it was as
though my whole life was just wiped out. I find myself wondering now,
if we can get the stuff back, can we get my parents back too? Doesn't
work that way, I guess. But I wake up in the morning with my brain
obsessing and trying to straighten out all these problems and find
explanations and solutons.

> and take it that this explains at least in part why you
>haven't answered the longish posts about my original "group" GBG and
>Walter's role in it.  But all that's water under the bridge in any case...
>Congratulations.

Well, have you forgotten that I told you I need time to think about
whether I felt comfortable going ahead with the GBG? I did. I
have found my reaction has been that I don't want to, and part
of the reason is in the answer I plan to write to Nancy about
feeling there is an uncomfortable atmosphere toward women on
this list. But I'll write that later. Not necessarily today - but later.

I have been busy and overwhelmed with too much happening
and too much to think about. I also have to move from here soon,
maybe within weeks, and have absolutely no idea where I'm going,
what I can afford, etc. So that is the last part of the nightmare, I hope.
Again, lawyers all over the place while sorting out my father's estate
issues by myself. And my children - ongoing life stuff which we all
deal with as part of ordinary life.

I have been trying to give myself space and time in hopes that
my brain would wake up one morning and tell me it would be
all right to go ahead with the GBG. But that hasn't happened
yet. If the answer has to come now, then I have to say I don't
want to do it. I have enough in my life, enough to worry about,
enough work, enough stress - and I don't feel up to, and may
never want to, do this. Maybe another time. And in another way.
JoAnne's attitude towards me just makes me feel flayed - she
is so harsh and accusatory, and I have had enough of that
for now.  There is too much conflict there for me to want to
deal with. I refuse to allow her to delegate me to the sidewalks,
but I can at least choose where I walk, and whom I walk with
for now. I don't want to feel on the defensive ll the time. I
find that almsot every time I read her stuff these days, I just want
to say to her, "Fuck off!!!!!!!!" Maybe that's what I just should have
said long ago.

>To respond to your message today..  I'd written, and you quoted me:
>
>>I don't get the sense that we have anything like the level of trust

>> needed to run a full scale group game on a sister list to this one at
 the moment -- but I could imagine playing a "solo" game on list

>That project has been indefinitely postponed.

D'accord.

>The project I am now proposing is one that I would do myself, by myself, in
>response to those words of yours which I quoted, Julienne:

You can use my words, Charles.

However; are you an ocean person, Charles? have you ever nearly drowned?
Have you ever saved anyone who is drowning? I've done both. That is not
a time to ask important questions like "What is the meaning of life?"

If I were drowning. and yu asked me qyestions like that, I would think
you were crazy and out of touch with reality. That's how this feels. For
you your project may be perfectly all right - but for me, I just want
to tell you to get out of the way while we pull this young woman
out of the water. I want tp know more about her, about what is
happening, and how to HELP HER. When that's taken care of -
when either she's safe and on the sand, or we hear that there is
nothing more that can be done - then I can deal with the theory.
But at the moment my sense is that she  could die while we
theorize and appoint ourselves her mythologizers. At the very
least she could undergo more rounds of flogging or rape. I
hope she doesn't have to go through it one more time.

If this is all  an on-line game - then when we find that out -
I can theorize.

So...on to another bath to clear more of the barn dirt out of
me. It was about 90 degrees yeterday, and the barn was
even hotter. I'm played out.

Love,

Julienne

PS I have one guanaco, Coeli ( p.Chellie) She was tortured
before I got her, and yesterday was the first time the F*(&^%&*
farmer would let me see her. I was afraid she'd be angry
with me, and maybe spit at me. She was so excited...so happy.
Just nuzzled...I felt so terrible that I couldn't just walk her out of there...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 14:33:06 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      toward a theory of vitriolic banter?
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Dolores, all:

Thank you for your post "Re: [P] [post 1 of 2] Re: [P] help Required.."
today, Dolores.

*

In another post "Re: [P] Julienne/Hoon", you said "it would be mildly
amusing to slice and dice" Julienne, and spoke of "vitriolic banter" as
what sounded to me like something of a passtime, forgone with mild regret
on this occasion because Nancy's "ant" post gave you the giggles, and
Anita's quote from the Talmud:

::  The highest form of wisdom is kindness

wasn't one you cared to argue with <grin>.

My (straight and serious) question for you is whether "vitriolic banter" is
a species of game that you indulge in much, here or elsewhere, and if so
whether it's genuinely intended to slice, dice and wound, or whether those
who play it have a sort of unwritten accord that that's what's going on,
and enjoy it without getting sliced, diced and wounded in the process:
"wounded" being the term I'm using here to signal actual real damage to the
person / psyche.

I invented a card game a while back -- or at least made preliminary notes
about it -- to be called "PrejuDiss: a Game of Equal Opportunity Dissing".
I think it might be wildly popular, and rocket me to fame and fortune --
but if successful, it might also be implicated in sundry murders and riots,
or be the flashpoint for a civil war.  People are so volatile: you can't
even make a profit appealing to their baser instincts without the risk of
activating their baser instincts!

In any case, I wonder sometimes about the kind of biting wit that people
bandy about in such films as *The Draughtsman's Contract* and *Dangerous
Liaisons*, admiring the (s)wordplay, but never quite sure how much of the
"vitriolic banter" is in play, and how much is in deadly earnest.

Any thoughts you might have on this general topic would be appreciated.

Best to all,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:14:54 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      belling the cat
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980629020245.011919a0@postoffice.att.net>
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In a previous post, Julienne wrote:

>Well, Walter, when you get to chat with God - if there is
>a god - you make sure you tell him what wonderful creative and
>brilliant thoughts we all had while a young woman went on being
>raped, chained, imprisoned, and having her spirit broken.

Glad you included yourself in that.  Because you'll have to tell
whatever god or great spirit or your own conscience something about
the events here, if you believe what you wrote, about your inaction.

>Amazing, JoAnne. You expect me to feel deep sorrow and disappointment
>about this young girl, but not about my father's death.

That's funny.  I never said you should not feel deep sorrow about
those other deaths.  I don't know where the HECK you get that idea.
You take the irritating sand of what I really said, and build a pearl
around it, a pearl that won't irritate you.

So that the sand grain of "I'm pushing people around with my grief as
an excuse" becomes "JoAnne doesn't want me to feel any grief ever
because it's inconvenient for her."

You just have no sense of propriety, you're like a person peeing in
the living room on the carpet and getting mad at me because I ask you
to use the bathroom or wear a diaper or at least try to get to the
toilet on time.

I'm not asking you never to pee again.  Just don't pee in the living
room.

>Or my mother's. Or
>my 36 animals. So...let me get this straight: You don't want to hear about'
>my grief for my parents,

In fact, hearing about your grief for your parents was not the
problem.  It was hearing about it as the reason you can't make sense,
can't handle losing an argument, only as an excuse convenient for any
possible difficulty you may be having in life.

You admit you never discussed your grief as grief.  You instead let it
leak in everything and spoil it all for everyone else.

>but you are outraged that I am not expressing
>enough grief over this young woman? Such contradictions, JoAnne.

You are the one who is contradictory.  You are the one who says that
grief is what should be expressed for this woman, and then you do not.
I'm not judging you by my rules, but by your own.

And you miss the major point of your own criticism, anyway.  I'm not
asking you to wail and moan about this woman.

I'm asking you, while you complain and cry about other people not
doing anything, why YOU are not doing anything either.  Are you going
to answer that?

Whether you cry for her or cheer her "master" makes not a bit of
difference to her; she cannot hear you.  You condemn others for what
you are doing yourself, inaction, nothingness.  Your feelings about
her are not doing anything for her.

There's enough information for you to do something, now.  Her name.
Where she hangs out.  The MUD client you need to access her hangout.
Go on, do something.  It's so vitally important, you say.  It's
someone's life in the balance, you say.

Then get cracking, because she could die tonight, and if she does, and
you didn't try to reach her, by your own reasoning you must blame
yourself.  Sure, you can blame the rest of us too, but over whom do
you have control?  Me, Dolores, HooN, Walter?  No, just yourself.

Take responsibility.

>Well, JoAnne, maybe there's a lot wrong with your analysis of the situation.
>Maybe you need to muster your left brain...

My left brain is the one that has detected the irrationality of your
position.  It's working just fine, thank you.

>However, if I were a Cheshire Cat yesterday, tonight I am absolutely
>the Cat's Meow!! Happy, happy, happy... meowrrrrrrr....:)
> "There are no finer cat than I am..."
>
>And also sad about the young girl...

Really, I would have a lot more respect for you if you actually did
something for this young woman instead of just displaying your
feelings about it.  Or at least, in addition to it.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:14:54 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: [post 2 of 2] Re: [P] help Required..
In-Reply-To:  <3598afa8.315121558@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:16:58 GMT, you, Walter Logeman
<walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>, wrote:

>Charles,
>
>you wrote:
>
>> I don't get the sense that we have anything like the level of trust needed
>> to run a full scale group game on a sister list to this one at the moment
>
>I am reading this as the end of the proposed GBG with Julienne and Joanne
>as the principals.  Charles, I want to discuss this more with you and
>others.  No disrespect is intended as i speak about others in the third
>person.
>
>I can see that there are various directions where you might see mistrust at
>the moment.  Yet I think it is not quite mistrust that is the issue,
>mistrust is, in part what a "resolution GBG" can attend to, resolve.

But it is not that there needs to be a trust of each other, which I
don't think there is.  There needs to be a trust in the process, the
game, which I think Julienne does not have at present (but I don't
know for sure).  I won't judge her motives, I believe her when she
says she doesn't trust it and I don't want to participate in it if she
does not enter the game with trust in the game.  It would be a waste
of time.

Just as I said before:

>Date:         Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:12:40 GMT
>Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
>Subject:      Re: GBG: ConstraintsIn-Reply-To:  <357DEDE3.111B@cybersurf.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>On Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:22:28 -0600, you, Robert Longpre
><odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>, wrote:
>
>>Julienne,>>If you were given any choice who would you include or exclude from
>>participation in order to feel "safe"?  I think it is fair that you
>>express your concerns here before there is a rush to subscribe to this
>>Glass Bead Game.  I somehow have the feeling that your preceptions would
>>be considered and aid others in considering their possible role(s).
>
>I think it's important that Julienne not have to deal with anyone
>she's uncomfortable with, other than me.  I don't think this has a
>chance otherwise.

If she does not feel trust in the process then I would agree there is
no point in it.  But then I might say that of the PsyberList in
general, which is probably why I have so much confusion about why
Julienne chooses to stay.

I'm not surprised that this is how the GBG proposal ends.

>There has also been a shift in the conflict between JoAnne and Julienne and
>in the grappling on the list.  To see JoAnne and Julienne as the
>"principals" may not even fit at this point.

What do you see as the grappling now?

-JoJoJoJo

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:14:56 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: current status, new project
In-Reply-To:  <19980629204504.NQHZ12631@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:43:50 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>JoAnne's attitude towards me just makes me feel flayed - she
>is so harsh and accusatory, and I have had enough of that
>for now.  There is too much conflict there for me to want to
>deal with. I refuse to allow her to delegate me to the sidewalks,
>but I can at least choose where I walk, and whom I walk with
>for now. I don't want to feel on the defensive ll the time. I
>find that almsot every time I read her stuff these days, I just want
>to say to her, "Fuck off!!!!!!!!" Maybe that's what I just should have
>said long ago.

Walter, is this ad hominem?  Just asking.  It does state that I am
harsh and accusatory, speaking of me, not of my actions.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:03:21 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: BgBgBgBgBgBgB

You are So funny, JoJoJoJoJoJoJoJo.....
  Bear and I were in Obedience training with a man and his dog.
  He (the man, not the dog) told a story.  He (the man, not the dog) said that one day he threw a ball for him (the dog, not the man).  He (the dog, not the man)
got so frustrated when he couldn't find the ball -- not  having watched its flight -
 that he (the dog, not the man) seized a tree in his jaws and tried to shake it.
NOT a Great Big Success!

  I think maybe the Feeling Function might be your 'tree'.

     Nancy (GBG = Great Big Grin)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:44:45 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: current status, new project
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne, all:

Julienne, toward the end of your long post about the incredibly tortuous
situation with the farmer, his shotgun, endless lawyers and the beautifully
named nuzzling guanaco, Coeli -- that name must mean something to do with
"heaven" -- you wrote:

> I have been trying to give myself space and time in hopes that
> my brain would wake up one morning and tell me it would be all
> right to go ahead with the GBG. But that hasn't happened yet. If
> the answer has to come now, then I have to say I don't want to
> do it.

I understand completely, and that indeed is why I suggested that your not
having responded to Walter and my posts might *in part* be due to the
events of the weekend: I suspected there was also a component of not having
come to an answer yourself, and perhaps a component of feeling that certain
other issues were far more pressing (on which, see below).

Regarding the "essay game" project, you write:

> You can use my words, Charles.

My thanks.

> However; are you an ocean person, Charles? have you ever
> nearly drowned? Have you ever saved anyone who is drowning?
> I've done both. That is not a time to ask important questions like
> "What is the meaning of life?"

I don't think I've ever drowned or rescued from drowning, Julienne, but I
know just what you mean about how inappropriate an important question would
be at such a time.  That's exactly what I was trying to get at in my post
the other day when I made the distinction between "crisis service" and
"regular service", and said that "crisis service" always took precedence.

> That's how this feels. For you your project may be perfectly all
> right - but for me, I just want to tell you to get out of the way
> while we pull this young woman out of the water.

I completely understand.  I've presented my view of the situation to
Dolores, and explained why I don't think it's my place to intervene -- but
I absolutely see why this wouldn't be the time for a game, or for long
posts back and forth about mythology, for someone who is involved in a
rescue situation.

I hope you get Coeli back home soon.

Best wishes,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 17:47:05 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: [post 2 of 2] Re: [P] help Required..
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, JoAnne, all:

Walter wrote:

> I am reading this as the end of the proposed GBG with Julienne
> and Joanne as the principals.  Charles, I want to discuss this
> more with you and others.

Of course.

What I'm saying thus far has two parts.  Part I has to do with the reasons
behind Part II, and Part II is the decision itself.

Let's take them separately, and I'll respond to some of JoAnne's post to
you along the way, since I think you're saying some similar things.

Part I, reasons.

Walter writes:

> I can see that there are various directions where you might see
> mistrust at the moment.  Yet I think it is not quite mistrust that
> is the issue, mistrust is, in part what a "resolution GBG" can
> attend to, resolve.

JoAnne writes:

> But it is not that there needs to be a trust of each other, which I
> don't think there is.  There needs to be a trust in the process, the
> game ...

I very much agree with JoAnne's point about "trust in the process, the
game", although in the Dream Event I think that was something we had the
luxury to learn along the way.  I don't think we can do that so easily in
the far more highly flammable situation of a "conflict resolution" game,
however.  Sufficient trust in Walter and myself might have made the project
possible, but I don't see that either at the moment.  And in any case,
Julienne has now signalled that she didn't feel ready to participate, and
I've put that particular project of "indefinite hold".

You also write, Walter:

> To see JoAnne and Julienne as the "principals" may not even fit
> at this point.

I think that's clear, if nothing else in view of Julienne's statement that
she doesn't wish to play.  And I also think it's good in a wider sense, to
know that a GBG group event should draw its principals *at the time*, not
months in advance -- that conflicts shift and mature and change -- and are
sometimes reconciled, sometimes irreconcilably "split" in separation, etc.

> The proposal and the demise of the GBG has played its part
> upon our stage, and we are richer for it. Could it be that each of
> us playing our part, irritating as it may be to others, forms the
> very ingredients we need in this crucible?  I think so, and can
> even find a prayer of thanks for that!

I am glad you feel that way.

JoAnne writes:

> I'm not surprised that this is how the GBG proposal ends.

I too am not surprised, JoAnne, and indeed have been clear enough all along
that things might turn out this way that my feeling now is more one of
relief at the time freed up -- as you suggested earlier -- for paying
attention to the incipient birth than anything else.

And Walter:

> I feel sad that your offer and our plans fade.  Even acute stabs at
> times are not deterring me from a trust in the process here at the
> moment.

I am also glad to hear this.  But I'm not actually saying that the plans
have faded, just that they're on indefinite hold -- and that who the
principals will be if and when we *do* play some games of reconciliation
will be a matter to be decided then.

> Even though the proposed group game may not eventuate, I
> would like to see some other venture in the future.

I too would like to see this, and will continue to work towards it.  But I
also feel as though this whole process of preparing for the games made a
lot of things clear about what "conflict resolution" games would involve,
and that I now have quite an amount of preliminary text ready to go if and
when their time comes round again.

> I am aware that we still have the DreamEvent to write up and
> that to do that might be a useful prelude to more Hipbone games
> associated with Psybernet.

That too.  And I also feel -- to get back to the issue of "trusting the
process, the game.." -- that either a completed Dream Event write up or the
completed "essay game" such as I'm now suggesting would be powerful ways to
*illustrate* the process of the game, to show the ways in which its
structural constraints can in fact "contain" powerful psychic dynamics, etc.

Part II, the decision, then.

The decision (mine, with due regard for the positions of others) is that
the proposed GBG event for "conflict resolution" is on hold, but that a lot
of the groundwork for it is now in place.  I hope we will in fact have such
an event at some point, though who the principals will then be is moot.

I expect to write an "essay game" about the nature of myth and reality, and
will certainly post it to the list when complete.

I stand ready to explore other uses of the HipBone Games in the context of
Psybernet, including further explorations of dream symbolism.  And I very
much hope to do some more work on the Dream Event write up, and bring it to
a conclusion.

*

On the issue of my "essay game" and quotes:

Julienne and Anita have both signalled their willingness for me to quote
their words, as have you, Walter.

The essay game I'm thinking of would be *about* the general topic of myth
and life, and would explore the question of whether a Jungian / Hillmanic /
Campbellesque approach to myth can itself "romanticize and distance" human
suffering, rather than working to alleviate it.  I think that's quite a
task: my attempt to come to terms with it will revolve around Anita's
presentation of the Psyche myth and Julienne's telling remark about the
woman in Texas:

> She is not a beautiful "slave-girl" in a beautiful and meaningful
> myth - but a suffering human being.

Beyond the eight quotes I've mentioned, I don't think I'll need to quote
anything said on this list.  I shall no doubt give my own account of the
situation, but in very general terms which won't need to identify
individuals.  If anyone else signals their *willingness* to be quoted, I
might find that very helpful -- but my aim at the moment is to give a
quick, non-detailed picture of how Julienne came to make her remark, and
how it affected me, and then to work with the eight quotes from Julienne,
Dolores and Anita to illuminate the wider picture of myth and life in
general.

I don't expect that everyone here will be in complete agreement with
whatever conclusions and resolutions I come to -- but since the finished
work will be publically available in the list archives, I'll be trying to
write it in such a way that no one feels any possible discomfort at the
manner in which events are described.

Best to all,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:03:46 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Dolores: GBG permission request
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dolores, all:

Both Anita and Julienne have agreed that I may quote their words in the
game / essay I'm thinking of writing.  Would you have any objection to my
quoting you as having said the following four things:

> the girl is 23, and has spent the last year as a slave to some guy
> in Texas. This basically involves her confined to the house 24
> hours a day, or if she is very lucky she gets a trip to a slave
> party where she's publicly flogged and had by all. When I spoke
> to her I asked her if he ever took her out, and she said, only into
> the back yard.

> The Mythical story Anita wrote, is in essence her situation

> When you don't have an identity you can't get hurt. This is really
> complex stuff and I'm way out of my depth on giving advice.

> She would be offended btw, if you refered to her as anything other
> than slave girl, or pet. Its the appellation of her choice.

in the context of a serious attempt to discuss the relationship between
myth and life, fantasy and reality?

The end product would be publically available in the Psybernet archives, as
indeed are all our list posts.  I might well want to make it similarly
available at the HipBone website, or have a link to it there -- and in the
event that I some day write that book about the "mythic imagination" which
I've been mulling for a dozen years now, I'd like to be able to include if
it it's any good <grin> and seems appropriate.

Not that publishers are exactly hammering at my door in search of
manuscripts, you understand.  But one can hope...

Best to all,



--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 01:13:24 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: seeing JoAnne in the mirror
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998062903493926@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 03:49:38 -0400, you, Nancy Smith
<mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:

>>>What's going on with you?
>>
>>If you mean in the prosaic sense:  Reading, gardening, shopping, cooking,
>>reading email, trying to get my mail list system to play well with others.
>>My usual weekend pursuits.
>>
>>If you mean further down:  being confused.  Concerned for my boyfriend who
>>is under too much stress.  Dealing with some stress myself at work.
>>Worrying about Mom visiting this weekend for July 4th fireworks (the house
>>is a shambles).
>
>My niece emailed me much the same  except with her masters in english
>and her seminary degree nobody can do intelligent runon paragraphs
>like she can..
>>-JoAnne
>Still you're both competent youg women, I'm sure you'll manage, just
>fine, JoJo..  Just don't lite the fireworks till there out of the
>house.  Maybe a back run for the boy friend with his favorite fragrant
>oil, maybe sandalwood...

I love your typos Nancy.  Back run.  For a moment I thought we were
talking football, running backs and all that, and he does have a bit
of the football physique.

And the fireworks, fortunately for me, are in the distance and lit by
others (except I think I have some of those silly little snake
thingies, might light some of those).

>    Now 'ol mother west wind has spoken so she better blow.
>                               Nancy
>>PS I'm ready to agree wold = wood.  So be it!
>____Also, do you think Simon's really back or did somebody just repost and old
>message?

Or it could be someone hijacking that account.  Or it could be Simon
pretending to be someone else pretending to be Simon.  Or Simon could
be taking dictation from his master.  Can we ever know!

>  And why do you suppose Walter issued a sixth welcome to Osoma?  Gee.  I
>never even got one.  Don't you feel sorry for me JoJo?

I would if I thought you needed it, but I don't think you do.

-JoJo (trying it out)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 02:42:27 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Dolores: GBG permission request
In-Reply-To:  <l0313030ab1bde94fbab0@[38.12.87.214]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Charles,

I really don't mind what you do, I'll be interested to see the finished
product. Quote with abandon.


Love

Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:59:28 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: belling the cat
In-Reply-To:  <35a5d9ff.254089218@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 11:14 PM 6/29/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
Really, I would have a lot more respect for you if you actually did
>something for this young woman instead of just displaying your
>feelings about it.  Or at least, in addition to it.

If that's the respectable thing to do JoAnne, why aren't
you doing it?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:05:13 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: belling the cat
In-Reply-To:  <35a5d9ff.254089218@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 11:14 PM 6/29/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>You just have no sense of propriety, you're like a person peeing in
>the living room on the carpet and getting mad at me because I ask you
>to use the bathroom or wear a diaper or at least try to get to the
>toilet on time.
>
>I'm not asking you never to pee again.  Just don't pee in the living
>room.

>In fact, hearing about your grief for your parents was not the
>problem.  It was hearing about it as the reason you can't make sense,
>can't handle losing an argument, only as an excuse convenient for any
>possible difficulty you may be having in life.
>
>You admit you never discussed your grief as grief.  You instead let it
>leak in everything and spoil it all for everyone else.

JoAnne, while you're having Walter check on me for an adhominem
attack, please have him check this previous post of yours as well.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:58:19 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: current status, new project
In-Reply-To:  <l03130308b1bdd475d143@[38.12.87.214]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 05:44 PM 6/29/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>Julienne, all:
>
>Julienne, toward the end of your long post about the incredibly tortuous
>situation with the farmer, his shotgun, endless lawyers and the beautifully
>named nuzzling guanaco, Coeli -- that name must mean something to do with
>"heaven" -- you wrote:

Hi Charles,

Yes...her name does mean "heaven". I know also have an Angel 2,
Innana 2, etc. The farmer killed The first Angel and Innana, as well as
Tarot, Wildfire, Gorbachev, and Mandela.

>> However; are you an ocean person, Charles? have you ever
>> nearly drowned? Have you ever saved anyone who is drowning?
>> I've done both. That is not a time to ask important questions like
>> "What is the meaning of life?"
>
>I don't think I've ever drowned or rescued from drowning, Julienne, but I
>know just what you mean about how inappropriate an important question would
>be at such a time.  That's exactly what I was trying to get at in my post
>the other day when I made the distinction between "crisis service" and
>"regular service", and said that "crisis service" always took precedence.

Funny..."What is the meaning of life" doesn't, right now, seem as *important*
a question as "how is this young woman, and is she being helped?"

I don't say the above sarcastically - just struck by what each of us
considers most important.

>> That's how this feels. For you your project may be perfectly all
>> right - but for me, I just want to tell you to get out of the way
>> while we pull this young woman out of the water.
>
>I completely understand.  I've presented my view of the situation to
>Dolores, and explained why I don't think it's my place to intervene -- but
>I absolutely see why this wouldn't be the time for a game, or for long
>posts back and forth about mythology, for someone who is involved in a
>rescue situation.
>
>I hope you get Coeli back home soon.

Thanks, Charles. I am concerned about Coeli, but she isn't as
important as the girl who is being flogged.

Love,

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:42:16 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Beyond common sense? Being trying?

JoAnne, I hope you'll tell us how your upcoming visit from your Mother
went....after the fact.



On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:03:14 GMT, Walter Logeman  wrote:

>All,
>
>     I have just read the article in Wired 5.11 "Manners Matter" which is
****>full of the sorts of @ innuendo one would expect:  "Miss Manners", "Sit up
***>straight folks . . ."  Unfortunately  @ prank provoking.  There is an
>interesting statement however, highlighted in the opening pages of that
>issue of the magazine, presented like an ad:
>
>"We have two regulatory systems: legal and etiquette.  The legal
>prevents us from killing each other.  The etiquette system prevents us
****>from  @ driving each other crazy."  Judith Martin.
>
>The images that wired put with 'legal' was an angry woman with police
>around her.  With 'etiquette' they showed a couple in wedding gear on a
>bomb site.
>
>~~~
>
>I am fascinated with the word crazy there.  I see all the swings into
***>the opposite, the use of civilised manners, inviting the @ crazy pranks,
>and also repressing something, so that the end result could be real
>madness for the want of a bit of craziness.
>
>We have discussed this, though I am looking forward to the return of
>Arja-Kaisa and Susan on these questions.
>
>~~~
>
>Reading the article added value to etiquette for me.  She defines and
>describes etiquette beautifully:
>
>"a voluntary bargain we make to live peacefully together.  It is not
>something you can figure out through common sense.  You have to learn
>it."  Judith Martin
>
>I think etiquette is in the social category, rather than psychological.
>Entering into the depths of the psyche requires a different sort of
>voluntary bargain.
>
>Ethos and Ethics come to mind.  These too are regulatory systems, and
>take us beyond etiquette.  Some of the things Judith Martin refers to
***>such as  @not posting private email in public go beyond etiquette, and
>raise ethical questions.
>
>I like her notion that these things need to be learnt.
>
>In other words; enter in to Psyber-L and the rules of etiquette are
>worth learning and adhering to to some extent.  Some etiquette is
>essential to forming the basis of a good communication space.  In
>addition:  Enter into Psyber-L and expect, to go beyond ordinary
>peaceful civil parlance. Etiquette may apply but now for a deeper
>psychological purpose, and for that same purpose, may, occasionally, be
***>abandoned. However ethical questions and the @ethos of the list still
>apply.  As do the laws of our various lands!
>
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:10:18 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Julienne, enough already!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julienne,

I am getting worn out and totally pissed off trying to keep up reading
your posts.  Where do you find all this distrust of all of the good
people here.  And, I am including Walter, JoAnne(aka JoJo), and all the
others whom you think are conspiring against the good of the planet and
your good.  What ever made you think that PSYBER-L had a mission to be a
Julienne worship cult?

> part of the reason is in the answer I plan to write to Nancy about
> feeling there is an uncomfortable atmosphere toward women on
> this list.

Bullshit!  Uncomfortable to women or to a few individuals who at times
may or may not be women.  There is a difference.  Do you see Jojo (had
to try that ... it didn't fit for me) as a man creating an uncomfortable
atmosphere here for you, or Dolores, or other "women"?  Why the sudden
focus on "men"? You have willingly gone on the attack with Walter, with
me, with any who don't genuflect to her most holy mother.  And if we
dare say anything then you retreat into a vale of tears and bemoan the
poor fate of such an innocent.  Bullshit!

Walter, if this gets me tossed off the list, so be it.  This list used
to be more than waltzing around Julienne's navel.  The raison d'etre has
become "Julienne".

> JoAnne's attitude towards me just makes me feel flayed - she
> is so harsh and accusatory, and I have had enough of that
> for now.

There you go with the accusations again, trying to provoke another round
of attacks so that you can feel justified with the poor me" victim role
that you seem to relish with so much delight.  Why do you continually
bait others into conflict with you?

> I find that almsot every time I read her stuff these days, I just want
> to say to her, "Fuck off!!!!!!!!" Maybe that's what I just should have
> said long ago.

Walter ... tsk, tsk, such use of language!  As I said in the subject
line, I've had enough already.  I wonder who else would like to air out
the room?

Robert

PS  about Osama, he is a friend of mine who lives in Kuwait and has been
having his subscription to this place beig bounced.  Tech problems that
he hopes to solve soon (hopefully before I get the boot).  He is quite
frustrated not to be able to get these welcome messages and to become
part of the pysber-l fishbowl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:11:45 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: current status, new project
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julienne

> Funny..."What is the meaning of life" doesn't, right now, seem as *important*
> a question as "how is this young woman, and is she being helped?"
>
> I don't say the above sarcastically - just struck by what each of us
> considers most important.

I also take it as extremely judgmental.  If I don't have the same
thought, the same priority as you then I an defective.  Meaning is
important.  Dare you entertain what meaning there is for all of this on
"her" part?  Why must we all go on your crusade of words here?  What
good would our words do here other than make you feel good?

> Thanks, Charles. I am concerned about Coeli, but she isn't as
> important as the girl who is being flogged.

I don't believe you.  I think you need to see this boogey man as a way
to justify your attack on the male gender in general.  What if Dolores
and Anita are right and that this woman chooses that which you so
abhour?  What if they are wrong and she dies during the night?  What are
you doing to prevent that?  Nothing!  And that is okay as nothing is
really possible.

Robert

one who has used this medium for suicide intervention in conjunction
with a phone and good contacts out of country ... Julienne, the planet
is filled with good caring people

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:37:54 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne, enough already!
In-Reply-To:  <35985072.3484@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:10 PM 6/29/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>I am getting worn out and totally pissed off trying to keep up reading
>your posts.  Where do you find all this distrust of all of the good
>people here.  And, I am including Walter, JoAnne(aka JoJo), and all the
>others whom you think are conspiring against the good of the planet and
>your good.  What ever made you think that PSYBER-L had a mission to be a
>Julienne worship cult?
>
>> part of the reason is in the answer I plan to write to Nancy about
>> feeling there is an uncomfortable atmosphere toward women on
>> this list.
>
>Bullshit!  Uncomfortable to women or to a few individuals who at times
>may or may not be women.  There is a difference.  Do you see Jojo (had
>to try that ... it didn't fit for me) as a man creating an uncomfortable
>atmosphere here for you, or Dolores, or other "women"?  Why the sudden
>focus on "men"? You have willingly gone on the attack with Walter, with
>me, with any who don't genuflect to her most holy mother.  And if we
>dare say anything then you retreat into a vale of tears and bemoan the
>poor fate of such an innocent.  Bullshit!
>
>Walter, if this gets me tossed off the list, so be it.  This list used
>to be more than waltzing around Julienne's navel.  The raison d'etre has
>become "Julienne".
>
>> JoAnne's attitude towards me just makes me feel flayed - she
>> is so harsh and accusatory, and I have had enough of that
>> for now.
>
>There you go with the accusations again, trying to provoke another round
>of attacks so that you can feel justified with the poor me" victim role
>that you seem to relish with so much delight.  Why do you continually
>bait others into conflict with you?
>
>> I find that almsot every time I read her stuff these days, I just want
>> to say to her, "Fuck off!!!!!!!!" Maybe that's what I just should have
>> said long ago.
>
>Walter ... tsk, tsk, such use of language!  As I said in the subject
>line, I've had enough already.  I wonder who else would like to air out
>the room?
>
>Robert

Robert,

When you announced that you were undergoing a great crisis,
after months when the main conversation on this list was, as I recall,
largely almost only between and about you and Walter, I defended
you when you were attacked. I also contacted you privately, and
offered to help by doing your chart, for which I was charging you
no fee. I do, by the way, charge roughly $100 an hour. I spent
several hours doing the work for you, and worrying about you, and
we corresponded about it several times. I was concerned about you.
And I think about you. I have been wondering for days where you were,
as you haven't been here. However, my discussing your chart with you
fell apart because you couldn't  ICQ me or call me on the phone so we
could do it. At least I assume that was the problem, because the next I
heard about it was when you berated me on the list, asking me
sarcastically if I thought I was your therapist.

Your grief and sadness and confusion were real, I felt, and I tried
to be there. So is mine, and yet you ridicule me and express all this
anger. How about empathy for each other, Robert?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:43:37 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: GBG: current status, new project
In-Reply-To:  <35985771.33BB@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:11 PM 6/29/98 -0600, Robert wrote:
>Julienne
>
>> Funny..."What is the meaning of life" doesn't, right now, seem as
*important*
>> a question as "how is this young woman, and is she being helped?"
>>
>> I don't say the above sarcastically - just struck by what each of us
>> considers most important.
>
>I also take it as extremely judgmental.  If I don't have the same
>thought, the same priority as you then I an defective.  Meaning is
>important.  Dare you entertain what meaning there is for all of this on
>"her" part?  Why must we all go on your crusade of words here?  What
>good would our words do here other than make you feel good?
>
>> Thanks, Charles. I am concerned about Coeli, but she isn't as
>> important as the girl who is being flogged.
>
>I don't believe you.  I think you need to see this boogey man as a way
>to justify your attack on the male gender in general.  What if Dolores
>and Anita are right and that this woman chooses that which you so
>abhour?  What if they are wrong and she dies during the night?  What are
>you doing to prevent that?  Nothing!  And that is okay as nothing is
>really possible.

If you don't believe me, and you are not the only one, why are you
surprised that I don't feel I can trust some of the people here?

And if you take my statement as judgmental, how would you judge your own?

Tell me, why do you feel so free to decide how I feel, and what I have or
have not done? What if you are wrong? What then?

>Robert

>one who has used this medium for suicide intervention in conjunction
>with a phone and good contacts out of country ... Julienne, the planet
>is filled with good caring people

Thank heaven.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 04:32:32 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: BgBgBgBgBgBgB
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998062920032235@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Hello Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, on Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:03:21 -0400 you
wrote:

>You are So funny, JoJoJoJoJoJoJoJo.....
>  Bear and I were in Obedience training with a man and his dog.
>  He (the man, not the dog) told a story.  He (the man, not the dog) said that one day he threw a ball for him (the dog, not the man).  He (the dog, not the man)
>got so frustrated when he couldn't find the ball -- not  having watched its flight -
> that he (the dog, not the man) seized a tree in his jaws and tried to shake it.
>NOT a Great Big Success!
>
>  I think maybe the Feeling Function might be your 'tree'.

Could well be!!  I'm admittedly not an F function person, choices taken
into consideration.

It's certainly not my "fun vacation function" which I think is S,
sensation.

Shakin' it, occasionally makin' it,
Jojojojojo

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 05:37:36 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: belling the cat
In-Reply-To:  <19980630014358.DCGE28814@default>
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:59:28
-0400 you wrote:

>At 11:14 PM 6/29/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>Really, I would have a lot more respect for you if you actually did
>>something for this young woman instead of just displaying your
>>feelings about it.  Or at least, in addition to it.
>
>If that's the respectable thing to do JoAnne, why aren't
>you doing it?

1.  How do you know I'm not, given my sneaky nature?

2.  It's not my claim, but yours, that she is in imminent danger.

-j

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 05:37:39 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: belling the cat
In-Reply-To:  <19980630014401.DCGQ28814@default>
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:05:13
-0400 you wrote:

>At 11:14 PM 6/29/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>You just have no sense of propriety, you're like a person peeing in
>>the living room on the carpet and getting mad at me because I ask you
>>to use the bathroom or wear a diaper or at least try to get to the
>>toilet on time.
>>
>>I'm not asking you never to pee again.  Just don't pee in the living
>>room.
>
>>In fact, hearing about your grief for your parents was not the
>>problem.  It was hearing about it as the reason you can't make sense,
>>can't handle losing an argument, only as an excuse convenient for any
>>possible difficulty you may be having in life.
>>
>>You admit you never discussed your grief as grief.  You instead let it
>>leak in everything and spoil it all for everyone else.
>
>JoAnne, while you're having Walter check on me for an adhominem
>attack, please have him check this previous post of yours as well.

Ok, good to get it all checked out.

-j

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 05:37:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne, enough already!
In-Reply-To:  <19980630034407.FGXD28814@default>
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:37:54
-0400 you wrote:

>When you announced that you were undergoing a great crisis,
>after months when the main conversation on this list was, as I recall,
>largely almost only between and about you and Walter, I defended
>you when you were attacked. I also contacted you privately, and
>offered to help by doing your chart, for which I was charging you
>no fee. I do, by the way, charge roughly $100 an hour. I spent
>several hours doing the work for you, and worrying about you, and
>we corresponded about it several times. I was concerned about you.

Would you feel justified if someone paid you that $100 per hour, and stop
complaining?

>And I think about you. I have been wondering for days where you were,
>as you haven't been here. However, my discussing your chart with you
>fell apart because you couldn't  ICQ me or call me on the phone so we
>could do it. At least I assume that was the problem, because the next I
>heard about it was when you berated me on the list, asking me
>sarcastically if I thought I was your therapist.
>
>Your grief and sadness and confusion were real, I felt, and I tried
>to be there. So is mine, and yet you ridicule me and express all this
>anger. How about empathy for each other, Robert?

How about it?  I feel none from you, Julienne.

-JoAnne aka jojo

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:29:11 -1200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Julienne, enough already!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Robert

> Walter ... tsk, tsk, such use of language!  As I said in the subject
> line, I've had enough already.  I wonder who else would like to air out
> the room?

Me.

I suggest all the existing threads be ended and the list started again,
with no tit-for-tat and/or ad hominem comments permitted from JoAnne to
Julienne, vice versa, or to-and-from anyone.

Up until very recently I liked the fact that the list is unmoderated.  I
take it back, now.  I skip most posts, which surprises me, and saddens me
somewhat.  I long for heady and hearty discussions with eloquence, grace,
goodwill, and elevation of spirit.


Barry
_________________________________
Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:26:39 +0300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Vs: [P] Julienne, enough already!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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----------
Hi Barry, and all

You wrote:

      : I suggest all the existing threads be ended and the list started
again,
      : with no tit-for-tat and/or ad hominem comments permitted from
JoAnne to
      : Julienne, vice versa, or to-and-from anyone.

I give my  support to your suggestion  - quoting Knowing Woman by Irene
Claremont de Castillo:

      : Where emotions are rising quite unnecessarily in any discussion
      : and people are getting hot under collar, it is enormous help if we
      : can learn to stop saying, as we point an accusing finger, "You said
      :so-and so  which makes it worse, and instead call  a halt and say,
"Oh damn!
      :the devil  has got  into this, we shall have to start afresh." Not
your devil,
      :nor my devil, but  HE Devil.

I suggest in addition, let's  have a break -  a  week or two,  and  let's
then start afresh. During the break  I shall take a  look at myself and my
Devil, and
read again  the above-mentioned book.  I recommend it to all. Irene
Claremont de Castillejo was  a Spanish born, Jungian  psychoanalyst living
in Britain.

Best  wishes
Anita

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:40:25 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      A fresh start?
In-Reply-To:  <199806300932.MAA14440@walrus.megabaud.fi>
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Robert, Anita, Barry and all,

I am responding to discussions in:  Re: Vs: [P] Julienne, enough already!

What a moment to raise these matters, not in terms of Psyber-L's life, that
is quite understandable, but in terms of my own process!

Robert wrote:
>  As I said in the subject line, I've had enough already.  I wonder who
> else would like to air out the room?

Barry wrote:
> I suggest all the existing threads be ended and the list started
> again, with no tit-for-tat and/or ad hominem comments permitted from
> JoAnne to Julienne, vice versa, or to-and-from anyone.

Anita wrote:
> I suggest in addition, let's have a break -  a week or two, and let's
> then start afresh.

These sort of things have been on my mind for weeks yet I never found quite
the way or the moment to do it.  Just as I think that it is time to do
something, we have a new proposal, or some delightful posts which make gold
from the shit.  I have thought all along, that at some point we need to
restructure, but have dropped that idea just as these posts arrive!  I have
had some new insights.  I would like us to consider the above suggestions
as well as the thoughts that follow.  I would dearly love to find a way of
proceeding that combines Robert's, Anita's and Barry's proposals for a
shift with some of the values, that I and I am sure others are conscious
of.

In the last 24 hours I wrote in  Re: [post 2 of 2] Re: [P] help Required..
Mon, 29 Jun 1998:

| Thoughts that  I had a day or more ago that somehow there was something
| wrong with our list have faded.  I have a sense of a solid little holding place
| for what we are up to here.

I felt a moment of thanks for our irritants as I wrote:

| Could it be that each of us playing our part, irritating as we may be to
| others, form the very ingredients we need in this crucible?  I think so,
| and can even find a prayer of thanks for that!

I had that sense for several reasons, which flooded in close together:

* We are doing the work.
We are living and describing the patterns of the soul ... a small example,
JoAnne suggests Julienne leave if she does not like it here ... mirrors an
exact moment and words in the slave girl story ... and all of that is being
related to the story of Psyche and Eros ... first by Anita and then with
the comments & quotes from Charles.  Hoon relates all this to the nature of
love, and the relationship between men and women, with a new slant on
salty.  Suddenly we can ask: who is in the role of the sisters (and all the
other roles in the myth) here on the list?  Is the list owner a slave
owner?  etc.  How does that tie into the myths?  How can the myth help us
with our process?   For all the difficulties and real pain and the need to
say Enough! which I fully share ... we are dealing with, attending to, the
psyche here, it is life changing stuff!

* Remember the "test shadow"?
In discussions in various threads around the time of  "Re: ... a shift in
the process Fri, 29 May"  I suggested that walking away from the unresolved
stuff would not work.  How would we deal with the shadow on Psyber-L if it
were to resurface?  I think JoAnne suggested a "test shadow" and I then
noted we had some real ones.  Shadows being of course "that which we do not
want to be" and which follows us wherever we go.  I have a sense that we
have been facing the shadow, and that we are all doing what we can, in our
different ways.  We are who we are!  We may not yet have completed this
process, our real moments of genius may still lie ahead.  "Get me out of
here!" (a la VarMan!)  is a natural response (Who sends us such an apposite
character?). What if now is the most intense moment of burning in the
crucible!  Could it be that we are asking the list owner to break the
crucible just at the crucial moment that this *should not happen*?  That is
my fear.  When is the alchemical moment for a fresh start?


* The psyche is not pretty.
We are dealing with the shadow ... the shadow that has been with us
especially in this century.  Shadow of war and tyranny, to which our themes
have been related.  (see JoAnne's link to the essay by Ettiene de la
Boetie.)  I have been reading the Myth of Analysis, in the intro, Hillman
writes about the multiple nature of our souls.  (The book is at work,
damn.)  We have for eternity been soul creatures infested with daemons,
monsters, Mothers, Fathers, Buebeards, gnomes, gadflies, beasts and so on,
that is our soul's nature.   (I wish i could write like he can ... it is on
about page 3?)  It made me think: why are we worried about a few irritants
here?  They are essential for us to see our own story!  Each of us is, in
our soul, all of us here and more.


* There is no cool channel.
Where ever we go the psychological stuff is there.  The posts infected by
the abstraction virus as Nancy called it, as well as the posts which are
free from infection carry the soul stuff ... could a break, or new rules or
a separate list or more moderation save us?  Any action like that is *also*
part of the story, the process.  Perhaps the call for a fresh start really
is coming from the soul of Psyber-L ... I am not sure, if so I'd like to
see that woven into our story.  We are each responsible for our own breaks,
rests, leave takings, cool moments?


~~~

My comments are not intended to contradict your proposals Barry and Anita,
I am glad they are there!   I am interested in how you see them in the
light of what i write, what others think, and if there is some way we can
honour all of these sentiments.


Walter





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:19:40 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Art and the journey
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi all,

I'm back from a glorious week of papermaking, returning to 156 messages...I
wish I could have taken everyone here with me...food for the soul...

Mark Lander, New Zealander from Christchurch, is a man who has taken the
pain of his life and transmuted it through his art...his heart dances in
such joy and enthusiasm for his work and his life...his story (and he's a
great story teller) was compelling filled with the pain which is universal
when one engages one's journey fully...words aren't flowing this morning to
give the experience justice...what strikes me this morning reading all the
messages is the enormous limitation of this medium...would that we all
could have played together in the pulp...Sunday night we took the art we
had created from the 75 pieces of 8x10 foot paper and filled the
rotunda...people walked thru the paper hanging to the floor, peper moving
in the breeze from the open door and were amazed...

Mark can't fix the ills of the world...he can fix his ills which he has
done... what he does do in this world as an artist is create beauty which
is so compelling, so filled with his story...which he tells with great
gusto and glee and integrity and authenticity...and great humor...

Julienne, I cannot fix what has happened to you, the pain you haveare
suffering...what I can do is go to my studio and make paper, would that you
would be there too...as I said before which you never responded to, I
cannot match your anquish with stories from my life because the pains of my
life have been subtle...I don't have llamas who have been killed...I have
diabolically emotional killings of a young girl over and over by her father
(now there is food for the mythics here)... I end up distanced by the
overwhelming pain which you have and take on for the world...in tribal
traditions there is one person who takes this on for the tribe...it is not
an easy task...I do not choose this task...that does not make me less
empathetic, less caring, less...it is what it is...

What I can do is come to you as a representative(self appointed) of the
world and ask forgiveness for all the sins that have been perpetrated onto
you...and then pray for resurrection...

Judith in gratitude for my own journey

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:24:57 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: help Required..Delores
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Delores,

Please know I wasn't here for a week so couldn't respond to your
request...I see from the messages you have come to a place of clarity for
yourself and with grace...my input at this point would be inappropriate...

Judith



>Dear Nancy/Judith
>
>Ok, I don't know American Law, I too was sceptical about all of this but I
>made a point of meeting with her etc over the last few weeks, and checking
>out her story in as much as possible.
>I actually believe that every word she says is true.
>She is voluntarily subjecting herself to this because she believe the man
>who is doing it to her actually loves her. That she is his *kitten* and
>because he provides for her.
>Things she says worry me, like for example yesterday, she said I  napped
>all afternoon so the time would pass quicker between you and Alex getting
>here.
>Alex initially asked me to talk to her when her Mistress??? on irc left.
>She was very distressed and he thought another woman talking to her would
>be a very good idea. I am really starting to regret it though, and I want
>to pull out while I'm not going to hurt her. That however isn't helping
>Alex or her.
>She had to be given permission from her Master to talk to me, this is so
>sick even I, who have been there, done that in most things sexual am having
>real difficulty in coping. I haven't revealled alot of things to you, cos
>if I didn't believe scincerly they were true, now having spoken to her, I
>would not believe them myself.
>Its enough to say this man is in total control of this girls life, that she
>is willingly subitting to this control, and I can see by the things she has
>told me that she really really needs help. In her mind she doesn't. She's
>owned, he loves her, he protects her.
>I really want out, but I will have to live with that, but I can't see how I
>can help, and if I get any further involved in this and strengthen an
>attatchment thats already forming between her and me, I think I am going to
>hurt her even more, and convince her that she is in fact justified in her
>lifestyle.
>
>She loves being tied up, I can only think of when I had Tara, and a nurse
>said to me, you need to swaddle that baby. I said whats swaddle, she
>replied you wrap her up in a blanket so her legs and arms don't move
>around. I thought what a load of victorian rubbish, it sounds positively
>cruel. Anyway I tried it, Tara immediatly reacted by becoming less fretful,
>very content, I think she became very secure. I'm really struggling to
>understand this. I've met a lot of  subs/doms, in my irc career, they
>generally work to sets of rules that mean nobody gets hurt past a point
>where they don't want to be, a lot of time its based on mutual respect. I
>don't see this happening here, I see a really sick girl cut off from the
>world, and a man who is living a fantasy where he is Master of all he
>surveys.
>
>This is really getting to me..
>
>
>Dolores.
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:00:59 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama

Since the GBG seems to be on the back burner, what about this:

  We might have our own little production of the Psyche and Eros myth.  We
could each take whatever parts apealed.  Characters could be split (as they
all too often are!)  They could be one sister, 5 sisters or a brother instead.

  I don't see why we'd need to run a separate list for this.

  I'm not special friend of psychodrama.  The some 10 psychodramatists I've
know have been all to humanly flawed...with one exception:

   Ellynor Barz, authoress of Gods and Planets: the Archetype of Astrology.

      Her husband, Helmut Barz, sometime president of the Jungian Training
        institute in Zurich, is the author of For Men too: a Grateful Critique of
        Feminism.

   And, hey guys and gals, if this goes through, I wanta be Psyche's lamp  ala
the tea servide in Disney's Beauty and the Beast.  I promise not to spill hot oil
on any that don't bump me too hard and unexpectedly.

  I would see us sticking to the spirit of the tale rather than the letter.

          How about it?

                Nancy
               (Polishing up her spout)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 06:39:48 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      chiaroscuro: introduction
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Walter, Hoon, all:

This is to introduce an accompanying post which consists of a piece called
"chiaroscuro, or shade and light dappled together".

It is an essay.

It is a little strange.  It is not written for ease of reading -- the first
sentence may be an impenetrable thicket of words at first, but hopefully
its meaning unfolds as the piece proceeds -- but according to its own
necessity: bear with me.

Partly, no doubt, it is written in response to Walter's post today about
the present state of the list, which I read very shortly before writing.
Partly, no doubt, it reaches towards Hoon's earlier question to me:

> Charles, tell me about the pinnacle of your experience of a
> garden; what it was your nose told you!

Partly too, no doubt, it is a finishing of work I have been mulling for a
long time -- and perhaps also the beginning of other work.  I may post it
elsewhere, but here on Psyber-L is where I am posting it first.

It is perhaps my creation myth, my theory of everything.

I will be interested in your responses to it.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 06:41:38 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      chiaroscuro, or shade and light dappled together
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Trees are phototropic simplexities, no wonder we like them they cowork so
well too: copses, see.

*

Meaning:

Trees we know: I as writer can refer you, reader, safely to them, "trees",
in trust that the word I use will signal to you too -- triggering for you,
also -- pretty much the assortment of branching organic thingies about
which I'm hoping to communicate that they are complex entities whose
complexity comes from a simplicity of rule -- branching -- repeated with
variations, said variants doing their branching in thirst of light, each
trunk rising, limb outpushing, branch diverging, twig evading other twig
much as one who seeks in a crowd a clear view of a distant celebrity shifts
and cranes and peers -- branching, thus, by the finding of light in
avoidance of nearby shadow and moving into it, into light as position, that
light, that position, growing, and thus in the overall "unified yet
various", we, seekers of the various and unified love them, to see them in
greens themselves various in their simplexity is to say "tree" with a quiet
warmth; while they themselves also, by the necessity of their branching
seeking, if clumped together seek in an avoidance of each other's seeking,
growing, thus space-sharing in ways which as the wind sweeps and conforms
them to its own simplex flows, shapes them to a common curve we call
aerodynamic, highlit against the sky huddled together as "copse" -- this,
in the mind's eyes and in your wanderings, see...

*

Meaning:

Trees we can talk about.  Simplexity is a useful term for forms -- like
trees -- which are neither simple only nor complex only, but as varied as
complexity suggests with a manner of variation as simple as simplicity
implies.

Trees?  Their simplexity is conveyed in principle by the word "branching".
Its necessity lies in the need of each "reaching end" of the organism to
ascertain from its own position and within the bounds of its possible
growing movement, some "available" light -- this light-seeking having the
name "phototropism".

Simplexities -- and thus by way of example, trees -- we like, we call them
beautiful.

Clustered together, too, and shaped by the winds' patterns of flow, these
individual symplexities combine on an English hilltop (or where you will)
to form yet other beauties.

*

Thus:

Trees are phototropic simplexities, no wonder we like them they cowork so
well too: copses, see.

*

Meaning:

I love trees.  Want to talk about simplexities, beauty.

I wish to talk about beauty because it is beauty that I love, if I love it,
that is beauty: love is kalotropic, a beauty-seeking.  I am erotropic, love
seeking -- you can find in this my own simplexity, my own varieties of
seeking, of the growths that are my growth, and clumping me with others
under the winds, the pressures that form and conform us, you can find also
the mutual shapes that we adopt, beautiful.

Simplexity, then, is a key to beauty, variety, self, character,
cohabitation...  Tropism, seeking, is the key to simplexity.  Love is my
tropism.  Ours, I propose.

*

Meaning:

Beauty is one simplexity perceived by another: the eye of the beholder,
with optic nerve, "brain", branching neuron paths that other simplexity,
"consciousness" the perceiving.

*

Meaning also:

That all is jostle, striving -- a strife for life, in which the outcome
overall is for each a "place in the sun" but not without skirmishes,
shadows.  The overall picture, therefore, beautiful -- but this overall
beauty hard to perceive when the specific shadow falls in the specific
sought place of the moment, the "available" is not available, and the
strife of the moment is paramount.

Branching being the order behind simplexity, differentiation...

Differentiation for maximal tropism at all levels -- life seeking always
the light, honey, beauty, is always and everywhere in conflict also with
itself, competitive: and competition the necessary act of the avoidance of
shadow, and the shadow creating act.

And beauty -- the light, thing sought, implacably necessary food and drink,
the honey -- thus the drive that would make us kill for life.

I could kill for beauty.  I could kill for honey.

*

Implying:

Paradise and Fall, simultaneous, everywhere.

It is at this juncture, at this branching, that we are "expelled from the
garden" -- can no longer see the beauty that is and remains overall, that
can allow us to say also, "we are never outside the garden" -- for the
dappling of light on and among the leaves has become to us, too closely
jostled, shadow.

And shadow for shadow we jostle, and life is strife.

*

The dappling of light on leaves, beautiful, is for each shadowed leaf,
shadow, death-dealing, is for each lit leaf, light, life-giving: a
chiaroscuro, beautiful, see.

Roots, too, have their mirror branchings.

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:55:19 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro, or shade and light dappled together

That was lovely, Charles.  A little hard to follow...lotsa big botanical words,
but lovely none the less.

  You could be the sun in our psychodrama.  When we go to the underworld I,
lamp, could carry you to light our path.  Then when we surface once more
you could burst forth in all your glory.  Even as you child is about to do.

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 07:11:24 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama
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Dolores, Nancy, Anita, all:

Dolores in her post "Re: [P] Some subjects, mostly Julienne" wrote of the
master and slave:

> Presumably the risk of fire is greatest when he's pouring the hot
> wax on her nipples

which struck me at the time as an unforgettable detail and was promptly
forgotten, until Nancy today wrote:

> We might have our own little production of the Psyche and Eros myth.

[...]

> And, hey guys and gals, if this goes through, I wanta be Psyche's
> lamp ala the tea service in Disney's Beauty and the Beast.  I
> promise not to spill hot oil on any that don't bump me too hard
> and unexpectedly.

-- which jolted me in memory, and prompts me to return to the myth.

*

>From *Eros and Psyche*:

::  But even as her swooning spirit wavered in the ecstasy of such
::  bliss, the lamp, whether foul falseness or guilty envy moved it,
::  or whether it longed itself to touch and kiss so fair a body,
::  sputtered forth from the top of its flame a drop of burning oil,
::  which fell on the god's right shoulder.  Ah! rash, overbold lamp!
::  Love's unworthy servant, thou burnest the very lord of fire...

*

Once again, a startling hint of the closeness of live and myth -- and no
less of the horrendous gulf between them.

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:15:42 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama

"Then Psyche -- for though flesh and spirit were weak and trembled, yet the
fierce will of destiny gave her force - summoned all her strength, drew forth the
lantern...a sudden courage displaced the weakness of her sex.  But as soon as
 the lamplight revealed the secret of the couch, she saw the kindest and
sweetest of all wild beast, Amor himself, fairest of gods and fair even in sleep, so
 that even the flame of the lamp, when it beheld him, burned brighter for joy, and
 lightnings flashed..."

     From: Amor and Psyche: the Psychic Development of the Feminine. by
Erich Neumann

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:45:56 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: A fresh start?
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All,

An odd occurance yesterday. I sent a message, noted it was having trouble
moving to the POP server, and re-sent it. Never got it incoming from
Psyber-L. First time that has happened. Reread the letter to see if I could
figure out if the problem was its content. (!) Didn't see a clear sign of
that being the case.

***

Group looking for zen slap?

Old patterns no longer viable. New pattern not visible.

***

Walter, I fundamentally agree with you: "we are living the patterns of the
soul."

My own experience is that one cannot, nor can a group, *propose a shift*
unless the person or the group is willing to experience knowingexperience
not available to the level needing to be shifted out of. Yes: need to
expand Psyber-L story to touch on territory of new level.

_Psyche and Eros_ may or may not hold the key.

***

Robert,

Your passion for this group is valuable to me. (I'm sympathetic to your
frustration, but I have a bigger story going on for me.) However, the
group's consciousness is very unlikely to be 'improved' because someone
insists of another: "Be more conscious!"

I'm not argueing against noting how disturbed one is by another's patterns;
but, such 'noting' rarely changes the other's patterns, at least in my
experience.

Similarly, if one wishes not to become identified with the role implicit in
the transference then it is incumbent on the person to consciously model
the opposite of that role. That's true whether the projection is positive
or negative, but the opposite is most valuably consciousness, i.e. the
opposite 'process'.

***

_Psyche and Eros_ may prove to a greatly valuable myth should it help us to
a new pattern. My own sense in anticipation is that this new pattern is
about us becoming more tolerant, not less; more savvy about our choices;
and more aware that everybody has *sand grain nature* and that it isn't the
grain of sand

which turns itself

into a

pearl.

***

best to all,

HooN

ps - we might consider reading Robert Johnson's _She_ together; it's short
and sweet.

ps 2 - I suppose I *have to* play the ants?!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:33:20 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: A fresh start? Psy

On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:45:56 -0500, sc  wrote:

>All,
>
>An odd occurance yesterday. I sent a message, noted it was having trouble
>moving to the POP server, and re-sent it. Never got it incoming from
>Psyber-L. First time that has happened. Reread the letter to see if I could
>figure out if the problem was its content. (!) Didn't see a clear sign of
>that being the case.
>
N: Yah, me too.  Tried to save it and then found I had nothing-but original writers message.....The value of our own words...Of Mice and Men...
>
>Group looking for zen slap?

N: What a tempting thought!  But always thought that was down-right unfriendly
of the old Masters.
>
>Old patterns no longer viable. New pattern not visible.
>
>***
>
>Walter, I fundamentally agree with you: "we are living the patterns of the
>soul."
>
>My own experience is that one cannot, nor can a group, *propose a shift*
>unless the person or the group is willing to experience knowingexperience
>not available to the level needing to be shifted out of. Yes: need to
>expand Psyber-L story to touch on territory of new level.
>
>_Psyche and Eros_ may or may not hold the key.
>
>***
>

>
 passion                              Psyche/Eros
 consciousness                   the lamp

>
>Similarly, if one wishes not to become identified with the role implicit in
>the transference then it is incumbent on the person to consciously model
>the opposite of that role. That's true whether the projection is positive
>or negative, but the opposite is most valuably consciousness, i.e. the
>opposite 'process'.
>
>***
>
>_Psyche and Eros_ may prove to a greatly valuable myth should it help us to
>a new pattern. My own sense in anticipation is that this new pattern is
>about us becoming more tolerant, not less; more savvy about our choices;
>and more aware that everybody has *sand grain nature* and that it isn't the
>grain of sand
>
>which turns itself
>
>into a
>
>pearl.
>
>***
>
>best to all,
>
>HooN
>
>ps - we might consider reading Robert Johnson's
_She_ together; it's short and sweet.

N: And the 1st words of the Introduction are:
  "The story of Amor and Psyche is one of the best eludidations available of the psychology of the feminine personality."
>
>ps 2 - I suppose I *have to* play the ants?!

N: Yahhh.  That's whacha havta do.  You're so good at sorting.
Or Pan with his pipes              (but those are both bit parts.  How about:

Eros?  I am reminded of seeing family friend, Fritz Lieber, in the lead role of
Othello (Now there was a gentleman who got to feeling misled and miffed in
love)

Or Psyche?  I bet you could make that little gal spin on her pretty wings.
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:18:45 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Authenticity
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Robert, Anita, Barry, Walter, Julienne, and all,

Admittedly coming later to this party...I have a sense of the authentic
rising up from the soul level at exactly this time...and that's *a good
thang* as the slang goes in my book...it feels clean to me...I for one have
noticed through all the posts from everyone where I resonate, where I feel
distanced, where I am not understanding, and where I sit in *listening* in
detachment
***

My own sense of what is going on for *me* is that the issues which are
rising have arisen are not mine or any longer mine...I spent years decoding
the archetypes if that's the right word that were in my *story* and then
setting out to demagnatize myself, issue by issue...it took 7 years to get
the basic work done, following each trigger until the source and then
rewiring...I recognize here threads of past experiences of these in my life
and find sustanence in having the resolutions and a self respect for the
work I have accomplished...so in reading the posts I find there is
validation for my own journey and empathy for us on the path...this is not
to set myself up as *morebetter* just that I had to resolve these earlier
on in order to experience any of myself...I'm sure in time my next
challenge will emerge here and I'm hoping by then to get this myth thing
down :-)

...I see each of us choosing that which we are up to working on in the
moment, call it integrating those shadow parts maybe, and those we are
choosing to place on the back burner for the time being which may be framed
as *being unconscious* but which I see as healthy self-protection...a man
who came into my life years back pulled all the plugs in his psyche at the
same time against my recommendation for him but it was his to
choose...ended up in a pile in my living room for months because he didn't
have a safe place within himself...it took years to become functional...so
I have growing and growing admiration for all here engaging and trust...

When I read your posts, Julienne, and I do read them, my response is that
there is a pea under the mattress...and Julienne, I sense you know what
this is...I make no attempt to look...in my world I honor your privacy as
well as your journey.

Thank you all for bringing what I experience as your authenticity...this
moves me closer to each of you today...and I am washed over with continued
awe...

Judith drying a bit from the Wisconsin monsoons

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:21:02 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey Director Nancy,

Since I' *myth impaired*, I'll do props!

Jud


>Since the GBG seems to be on the back burner, what about this:
>
>  We might have our own little production of the Psyche and Eros myth.  We
>could each take whatever parts apealed.  Characters could be split (as they
>all too often are!)  They could be one sister, 5 sisters or a brother instead.
>
>  I don't see why we'd need to run a separate list for this.
>
>  I'm not special friend of psychodrama.  The some 10 psychodramatists I've
>know have been all to humanly flawed...with one exception:
>
>   Ellynor Barz, authoress of Gods and Planets: the Archetype of Astrology.
>
>      Her husband, Helmut Barz, sometime president of the Jungian Training
>        institute in Zurich, is the author of For Men too: a Grateful
>Critique of
>        Feminism.
>
>   And, hey guys and gals, if this goes through, I wanta be Psyche's lamp  ala
>the tea servide in Disney's Beauty and the Beast.  I promise not to spill
>hot oil
>on any that don't bump me too hard and unexpectedly.
>
>  I would see us sticking to the spirit of the tale rather than the letter.
>
>          How about it?
>
>                Nancy
>               (Polishing up her spout)
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:25:13 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro, or shade and light dappled together
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Charles,

Thanks for this contribution...makes sense to me...much to wiggle my roots
down into...I've saved it to savour and digest...I use a tree image lots in
my work to inform creativity...says the branch: Wonder what it feels like
to reach waaaay over here...or here...or here or HERE!

Judith her leaves dancing in the breeze

>Trees are phototropic simplexities, no wonder we like them they cowork so
>well too: copses, see.
>
>*
>
>Meaning:
>
>Trees we know: I as writer can refer you, reader, safely to them, "trees",
>in trust that the word I use will signal to you too -- triggering for you,
>also -- pretty much the assortment of branching organic thingies about
>which I'm hoping to communicate that they are complex entities whose
>complexity comes from a simplicity of rule -- branching -- repeated with
>variations, said variants doing their branching in thirst of light, each
>trunk rising, limb outpushing, branch diverging, twig evading other twig
>much as one who seeks in a crowd a clear view of a distant celebrity shifts
>and cranes and peers -- branching, thus, by the finding of light in
>avoidance of nearby shadow and moving into it, into light as position, that
>light, that position, growing, and thus in the overall "unified yet
>various", we, seekers of the various and unified love them, to see them in
>greens themselves various in their simplexity is to say "tree" with a quiet
>warmth; while they themselves also, by the necessity of their branching
>seeking, if clumped together seek in an avoidance of each other's seeking,
>growing, thus space-sharing in ways which as the wind sweeps and conforms
>them to its own simplex flows, shapes them to a common curve we call
>aerodynamic, highlit against the sky huddled together as "copse" -- this,
>in the mind's eyes and in your wanderings, see...
>
>*
>
>Meaning:
>
>Trees we can talk about.  Simplexity is a useful term for forms -- like
>trees -- which are neither simple only nor complex only, but as varied as
>complexity suggests with a manner of variation as simple as simplicity
>implies.
>
>Trees?  Their simplexity is conveyed in principle by the word "branching".
>Its necessity lies in the need of each "reaching end" of the organism to
>ascertain from its own position and within the bounds of its possible
>growing movement, some "available" light -- this light-seeking having the
>name "phototropism".
>
>Simplexities -- and thus by way of example, trees -- we like, we call them
>beautiful.
>
>Clustered together, too, and shaped by the winds' patterns of flow, these
>individual symplexities combine on an English hilltop (or where you will)
>to form yet other beauties.
>
>*
>
>Thus:
>
>Trees are phototropic simplexities, no wonder we like them they cowork so
>well too: copses, see.
>
>*
>
>Meaning:
>
>I love trees.  Want to talk about simplexities, beauty.
>
>I wish to talk about beauty because it is beauty that I love, if I love it,
>that is beauty: love is kalotropic, a beauty-seeking.  I am erotropic, love
>seeking -- you can find in this my own simplexity, my own varieties of
>seeking, of the growths that are my growth, and clumping me with others
>under the winds, the pressures that form and conform us, you can find also
>the mutual shapes that we adopt, beautiful.
>
>Simplexity, then, is a key to beauty, variety, self, character,
>cohabitation...  Tropism, seeking, is the key to simplexity.  Love is my
>tropism.  Ours, I propose.
>
>*
>
>Meaning:
>
>Beauty is one simplexity perceived by another: the eye of the beholder,
>with optic nerve, "brain", branching neuron paths that other simplexity,
>"consciousness" the perceiving.
>
>*
>
>Meaning also:
>
>That all is jostle, striving -- a strife for life, in which the outcome
>overall is for each a "place in the sun" but not without skirmishes,
>shadows.  The overall picture, therefore, beautiful -- but this overall
>beauty hard to perceive when the specific shadow falls in the specific
>sought place of the moment, the "available" is not available, and the
>strife of the moment is paramount.
>
>Branching being the order behind simplexity, differentiation...
>
>Differentiation for maximal tropism at all levels -- life seeking always
>the light, honey, beauty, is always and everywhere in conflict also with
>itself, competitive: and competition the necessary act of the avoidance of
>shadow, and the shadow creating act.
>
>And beauty -- the light, thing sought, implacably necessary food and drink,
>the honey -- thus the drive that would make us kill for life.
>
>I could kill for beauty.  I could kill for honey.
>
>*
>
>Implying:
>
>Paradise and Fall, simultaneous, everywhere.
>
>It is at this juncture, at this branching, that we are "expelled from the
>garden" -- can no longer see the beauty that is and remains overall, that
>can allow us to say also, "we are never outside the garden" -- for the
>dappling of light on and among the leaves has become to us, too closely
>jostled, shadow.
>
>And shadow for shadow we jostle, and life is strife.
>
>*
>
>The dappling of light on leaves, beautiful, is for each shadowed leaf,
>shadow, death-dealing, is for each lit leaf, light, life-giving: a
>chiaroscuro, beautiful, see.
>
>Roots, too, have their mirror branchings.
>
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:16:23 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama

On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:21:02 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:

>Hey Director Nancy,

N: With the flack I and everyone else around here give Authority?  No way.
  Since you, Judith, are volunteering to be Prop Manager, you may manage me.

   I'm a little lamplight
   Small and stout.
   Here is my handle
   Here is my spout.
             ....
  I don't quite see why we need a 'director' anyway.  Do we?


>Since I' *myth impaired*, I'll do props!
>
>Jud
>
N: Hmmm.....why is it I sort of doubt you are psychically impaired in any way,
Jud?

      Nancy
      Wondering
>
>>Since the GBG seems to be on the back burner, what about this:
>>
>>  We might have our own little production of the Psyche and Eros myth.  We
>>could each take whatever parts apealed.  Characters could be split (as they
>>all too often are!)  They could be one sister, 5 sisters or a brother instead.
>>
>>  I don't see why we'd need to run a separate list for this.
>>
>>  I'm not special friend of psychodrama.  The some 10 psychodramatists I've
>>know have been all to humanly flawed...with one exception:
>>
>>   Ellynor Barz, authoress of Gods and Planets: the Archetype of Astrology.
>>
>>      Her husband, Helmut Barz, sometime president of the Jungian Training
>>        institute in Zurich, is the author of For Men too: a Grateful
>>Critique of
>>        Feminism.
>>
>>   And, hey guys and gals, if this goes through, I wanta be Psyche's lamp  ala
>>the tea servide in Disney's Beauty and the Beast.  I promise not to spill
>>hot oil
>>on any that don't bump me too hard and unexpectedly.
>>
>>  I would see us sticking to the spirit of the tale rather than the letter.
>>
>>          How about it?
>>
>>                Nancy
>>               (Polishing up her spout)
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:43:30 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      shade and light dappled together

You know, Charles, I feel that your subject heading above is perhaps the
loveliest thing of all.  Might I have you permission to use it in a haike?
   It might almost be the subject heading for the entire list here.

    light and dark dappled together

    Ummmmm....


     Nancy
     Breathing deep and remembering:


             Full winter moon --
      The hanging baskets create
  A shadow play


                                        Dragonfly, July 1979, Vol. 7, No. 3
                                         Electronic reprinting Psyber-L, June 30, 1998

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:02:20 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yeah Nancy I missed the Authority moment (s's?) sorry...just my inadvertant
attempt at levity...

>On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:21:02 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:
>
>>Hey Director Nancy,
>
>N: With the flack I and everyone else around here give Authority?  No way.
>  Since you, Judith, are volunteering to be Prop Manager, you may manage me.
>
>   I'm a little lamplight
>   Small and stout.
>   Here is my handle
>   Here is my spout.
>             ....
>  I don't quite see why we need a 'director' anyway.  Do we?

It's the actress in me...always picked fabulous directors who I would
follow to their vision...Did a production of Hamlet with Gerald Freedman,
Shirley Knight as Gertrude,he a mega NYC director here in Cleveland at the
Shakespear Festival...his vision was to place it in contempory time in a
bombed out amplitheater showing what adults do to children with their
machinations...the final curtain call placed all the young people in a sort
of baseball team vinette playing the French composer's theme used in Oliver
Stone's vietnam movie and the power of seeing only 2 were still alive at
the end of the play sent the house quiet every night...except the school
children matinees where they would jump to their feet and cheer for 10
minutes...
>
>
>>Since I' *myth impaired*, I'll do props!
>>
>>Jud
>>
>N: Hmmm.....why is it I sort of doubt you are psychically impaired in any way,
>Jud?

No, Nancy, Not psychically impaired...definitely, no matter what Hoon says,
mythically impaired, I don't grok the psychicmythic equation...I see them
definitely as separate somethings...I've read every word you, Anita, and
Charles have written on Psyche/Eros a couple of times and I have *NO* idea
what it is about and how it relates to me...yes, Hoon, I read She and I
haven't a clue...so I'm going to try the book Anita recommended...something
about getting the framing in my head somewhere in which the myths reside...

Reminds me of my PhD course work where we were each to take a historical
Greek philosophy person and role play on line...didn't happen for me, could
not think like those guys...must be a Greek past life I am blocking, eh?
;-) or I was in Sufiland at the time...now that I get...
>
>      Nancy
>      Wondering

Judith wondering if there are any more props beside the lamp...list?
>>
>>>Since the GBG seems to be on the back burner, what about this:
>>>
>>>  We might have our own little production of the Psyche and Eros myth.  We
>>>could each take whatever parts apealed.  Characters could be split (as they
>>>all too often are!)  They could be one sister, 5 sisters or a brother
>>>instead.
>>>
>>>  I don't see why we'd need to run a separate list for this.
>>>
>>>  I'm not special friend of psychodrama.  The some 10 psychodramatists I've
>>>know have been all to humanly flawed...with one exception:
>>>
>>>   Ellynor Barz, authoress of Gods and Planets: the Archetype of Astrology.
>>>
>>>      Her husband, Helmut Barz, sometime president of the Jungian Training
>>>        institute in Zurich, is the author of For Men too: a Grateful
>>>Critique of
>>>        Feminism.
>>>
>>>   And, hey guys and gals, if this goes through, I wanta be Psyche's
>>>lamp  ala
>>>the tea servide in Disney's Beauty and the Beast.  I promise not to spill
>>>hot oil
>>>on any that don't bump me too hard and unexpectedly.
>>>
>>>  I would see us sticking to the spirit of the tale rather than the letter.
>>>
>>>          How about it?
>>>
>>>                Nancy
>>>               (Polishing up her spout)
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________________________
>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:06:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: shade and light dappled together
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

And if I may, Nancy...

>You know, Charles, I feel that your subject heading above is perhaps the
>loveliest thing of all.  Might I have you permission to use it in a haike?
>   It might almost be the subject heading for the entire list here.
>
>    light and dark dappled together
>
>    Ummmmm....
>
>
>     Nancy
>     Breathing deep and remembering:
>
>
>             Full winter moon --
>      The hanging baskets create
>  A shadow play
>
              Branches in the dark..
                I await illumination

Judith dancing with the trees

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:21:33 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama
In-Reply-To:  <v01550128b1bed3706afc@[207.54.160.167]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 06:02 PM 6/30/98 -0400, Judith wrote:

>>N: Hmmm.....why is it I sort of doubt you are psychically impaired in any
way,
>>Jud?
>
>No, Nancy, Not psychically impaired...definitely, no matter what Hoon says,
>mythically impaired, I don't grok the psychicmythic equation...I see them
>definitely as separate somethings...I've read every word you, Anita, and
>Charles have written on Psyche/Eros a couple of times and I have *NO* idea
>what it is about and how it relates to me...yes, Hoon, I read She and I
>haven't a clue...so I'm going to try the book Anita recommended...something
>about getting the framing in my head somewhere in which the myths reside...
>
>Reminds me of my PhD course work where we were each to take a historical
>Greek philosophy person and role play on line...didn't happen for me, could
>not think like those guys...must be a Greek past life I am blocking, eh?
>;-) or I was in Sufiland at the time...now that I get...

And yet you're into the Princess and the Pea???

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 00:29:10 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Poems lovely as trees
In-Reply-To:  <35985072.3484@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

.."I think that I shall never see
a poem as lovely as a tree."

TRIVIAL BIT
I had two great danes and a fondness for old b/w American movies. One I
watched involved Blondie, and Baby Dumpling and her hub who's name escapes
me, and centred round a dog show, where their Great Dane won. Somewhere in
all that, there was a poem, and I can only remember two lines of it, but it
was as above. I've always wanted to reaquaint myself with it, since it
stuck in my memory first time I heard it.
So I tried to find it on the net, being as we are in botanical mode at the
moment, and I found instead a very interesting web page, which all you
shrinky/artistic types might appreciate.
It basically people with neurological disorders expressing themselves
theraputically through submission and discussion of poetry......


NON TRIVIAL BIT.
http://neuro-www2.mgh.harvard.edu/MIND/main.nclk

For people with neurological disorders, it can be incredibly frustrating
trying to explain to other
people "what it's like in my mind." The same can be said for people who are
close to or caring
for people with neurological disorders. It is often impossible to put these
feelings into clinically
descriptive words. Poetry offers a unique "window" into a person's
mind...allowing them to
express feelings and relationships in a completely creative way. By
encouraging both patients
and the people close to them to write poetry describing their unique
experiences and feelings, I
believe we can learn a great deal about how people cope with these
disorders. By sharing this
poetry with others, one can truly open "A Window on my Mind."


I tend to agree..and while looking for trees found this..
Its not great poetry, and I don't think its supposed to be,  but somehow
its got something..

Life Stinks

This poem submitted by Graci Blue on 9/10/97.
Email Address: graci@planetmail.net

Sometimes I think
that life really stinks

I sit and I wonder
and listen to the thunder
and then it finally occurs to me
that there is nothing more beautiful than a tree.

It doesn't say what particular problem Gracie is suffering from, but
whatever, I agree with what she's saying and I find something to admire in
the way she is saying it.


If anybody can let me know where the poem lovely as a tree comes from, I'd
love to read it in  its entirety.

Love

Dolores.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:51:46 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Poems lovely as trees

Dolores, The poems you are looking for is Trees by Joyce Kilmer.

  Hope this helps, Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:03:40 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Breathing deep and remembering
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy:

> I feel that your subject heading above is perhaps the loveliest
> thing of all.  Might I have you permission to use it in a haike?

Of course..

Haike?  Haiku?

Best,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:25:50 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes, Julienne, but I'm probably not using it correctly...I'm at the basic
remedial myth metaphoric level of something unseen in my referencial case
meaning something unseen to *me* not *you*...not that it was put there as a
test if I remember the story correctly which I probably don't

Judith

>At 06:02 PM 6/30/98 -0400, Judith wrote:
>
>>>N: Hmmm.....why is it I sort of doubt you are psychically impaired in any
>way,
>>>Jud?
>>
>>No, Nancy, Not psychically impaired...definitely, no matter what Hoon says,
>>mythically impaired, I don't grok the psychicmythic equation...I see them
>>definitely as separate somethings...I've read every word you, Anita, and
>>Charles have written on Psyche/Eros a couple of times and I have *NO* idea
>>what it is about and how it relates to me...yes, Hoon, I read She and I
>>haven't a clue...so I'm going to try the book Anita recommended...something
>>about getting the framing in my head somewhere in which the myths reside...
>>
>>Reminds me of my PhD course work where we were each to take a historical
>>Greek philosophy person and role play on line...didn't happen for me, could
>>not think like those guys...must be a Greek past life I am blocking, eh?
>>;-) or I was in Sufiland at the time...now that I get...
>
>And yet you're into the Princess and the Pea???
>
>Julienne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:37:34 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama
In-Reply-To:  <v0155012ab1bf06c96085@[207.54.160.167]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 09:25 PM 6/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Yes, Julienne, but I'm probably not using it correctly...I'm at the basic
>remedial myth metaphoric level of something unseen in my referencial case
>meaning something unseen to *me* not *you*...not that it was put there as a
>test if I remember the story correctly which I probably don't
>
>Judith

Well, I don't remember it either - except that she had a ton of mattresses
under her but still couldn't sleep, as I recall, because she was so sensitive
that she could feel a pea way at the bottom of the stack.

Was that what you were saying? That I'm sensitive?

Strange synchronistic thing here is that we threw a mattress out today. :)

Maybe that's symbolic of the process of ending the peas and rocks and
stuff under my mattress for this past period. :)

Also strange that, just as the circumstances that are fixible are being fixed,
and I'm feeling happier and more cheerful, suddenly there's a big burst
of hostility? Well...I'm just going to continue feeling better...

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:07:17 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro, or shade and light dappled together
In-Reply-To:  <l03130301b1be9910510a@[38.12.87.214]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Thanks, Charles.

I'll continue to revisit and contemplate what you wrote. My early response
is familiarity in this respect:

*3* is very important. ;-)

***

regards,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 03:26:51 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Vs: [P] Julienne, enough already!
In-Reply-To:  <199806300932.MAA14440@walrus.megabaud.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>, on Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:26:39 +0300
you wrote:

>I give my  support to your suggestion  - quoting Knowing Woman by Irene
>Claremont de Castillo:
>
>      : Where emotions are rising quite unnecessarily in any discussion
>      : and people are getting hot under collar, it is enormous help if we
>      : can learn to stop saying, as we point an accusing finger, "You said
>      :so-and so  which makes it worse, and instead call  a halt and say,
>"Oh damn!
>      :the devil  has got  into this, we shall have to start afresh." Not
>your devil,
>      :nor my devil, but  HE Devil.
>
>I suggest in addition, let's  have a break -  a  week or two,  and  let's
>then start afresh. During the break  I shall take a  look at myself and my
>Devil, and
>read again  the above-mentioned book.  I recommend it to all. Irene
>Claremont de Castillejo was  a Spanish born, Jungian  psychoanalyst living
>in Britain.

That would be OK with me, Anita.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 03:26:53 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: A fresh start? Psy
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998063013332142@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Hello Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, on Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:33:20 -0400 you
wrote:

>N: Yahhh.  That's whacha havta do.  You're so good at sorting.
>Or Pan with his pipes              (but those are both bit parts.  How about:
>
>Eros?  I am reminded of seeing family friend, Fritz Lieber, in the lead role of
>Othello (Now there was a gentleman who got to feeling misled and miffed in
>love)

I wish I had seen him thus, Nancy.  I had quite a sweet spot for his
writings and was fascinated by his stories about his acting career, and
thought him to be quite handsome.

-JoAnne

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