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Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9810"
To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1998 14:32:03 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: shrinks
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linda

> Robert, I am actually Linda.  I lied about my name.  I am very
> intimidated by this "chat".  Thank you for responding to my question. I
> am also in graduate school, so I have little time to totally digest all
> that I read of your conversations.  Still, I am looking to "chat" with
> others who are being or have been analyzed.
> There.  My feet are wet.

Good to have you here, I hope you find the time (and the courage)
to go deeper into the waters!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:59:06 EDT
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From:         Susan Leonard <SLL248950@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Introduction
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My name is Susan, I'm married and have one young son.  I came from an abusive
backgrd.  I'm on antidepressants for major depression and in therapy with a
female psychiatrist who I like and trust.  It has been found I have strong
dissociative tendencies with some occurrences of things I don't remember.  I
have not been diagnosed with DID.  I don't really know what to expect here so
I'd like to just read some posts for a while.

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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1998 21:32:16 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Introduction
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Susan

Welcome to Psyber-L good to have you on board.  Some of us have
been here for years and we are not sure what will or can happen
her next either!  If you click on the url (web address) on the
bottom of this post you can get to the archives and you can read
recent post or search for what has been said on topics of your
interest.

All the best,

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:35:46 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: shrinks
In-Reply-To:  <199809271545_MC2-5ACE-5611@compuserve.com>
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Sorry, Fritz, somehow I lost this on Sunday.

Hello WFSchmidt <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>, on Sun, 27 Sep 1998 15:44:21
-0400 you wrote:

>JoAnne wrote:
>
>>If I consciously omit a person or persons from my view of Psyber-L that is
>clearly not going to make that person's effect on others disappear.<
>
>Do you want to control who is making which effect on somebody else?

In fact, no one who has been ejected from this group is barred from
emailing the members he or she knows about and having some kind of effect,
so perhaps you are again stretching this "banishment" beyond its literal
accomplished meaning.

I do want to influence the effects others have on people, when the result
will have an effect on me.  That's the essence of voting, jail, editorial
articles and gossip, isn't it?  Hardly a new idea.

I could make the usual ultimate argument about Nazis but that would be
taking things way too far.

Control, power and money are things that people make all too much fuss
about not wanting, not being obsessed by, hating and being too "cool" for.
Rejecting one's own power seems to me to be playing a game.  One power we
have is to choose those with whom we spend our time.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1998 04:29:31 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Psybernet Web Pages
Comments: To: GROUP-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
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All,

I have been doing some ant like work on the web pages.  A bit
here and there.  I am pleased with how the new links page looks
which is the one page I intend to add to regularly and which will
have links from this list, and ones that relate to discussions i
am involved in. I stated another file called PsyberGate, which
some of you may have seen, this is Version 2.00 of that.

Please let me know what you think would be useful there.  Note
that the links are cut and pasted into other files as we go, so
everything will be there for posterity.  Some of those pages are
still under construction ... never mind.


http://psybernet.co.nz/links.htm



Walter






__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:12:41 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need (?)

Anita,
  This world view troubles me a lot.  You have mentioned it as your belief
before here on Psyber-L and I find it also at your web site.
  I've thought a lot about it and talked to others.  I don't see any way
to make it work except if it includes a belief in reincarnation.  Recently
the Grand Jury on which I am serving had to consider the case of an
infant murder.  Contrary to the father's version the physical evidence
showed that the infant had been held by her ankles and swung hard and
repeated so that her skull was cracked against a hard object.  We indicted
the father.
  I can't see how that infant girl received anything useable for this
life.  Any of us could think of millions of other similar cases over the
ages.  The one that comes most to my mind (right now in the midst of
the United States move toward impeaching a president for purient sexual
behavior) is the now greatly respected President Harry Truman's order to
drop nuclear bombs on Japanese cities full of women and children of every
age from unborn up.
  One can, I think, suppose that as the murdered infant returns to the
Light she has learned something from the experience that may be applicable
to ... oh, say her own treatment of an infant in a preceding life.  Still
is it just or in someway useful for the infant of this life have to feel
 the horror of her treatment in this life at the hands of her own father
 with no conscious awareness of its applicability?  All this seems to
 indicate the presence of some sort of god.  But it seems to me it must
 be a very cruel one.
   On the other hand I do look at what happens to me and what I myself do
as I might a dream, looking for any pattern or hint in it of what I might
learn.  For patterns which reflect on my own patterns of thought or
behavior.
  John Beebe has said that the Self is ruthless.  If the first few hints
biding one to change do not suffice that some illness, accident or other
unpleasantness may befall one.  This may be, though it is hard to under-
stand the seemingly happy lives some Nazi war criminals seem to have led
in South America in this light.
  Perhaps it is only our own need for meaning and our need to think that
somehow the Universe is set up to lend significance to our own individual
small selves.
  I'd welcome any light any of you might care to shed on this matter.
It all makes Little Lamp feel the infinitesimalness of her own tiny glow.
  Best to all, Nancy

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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:27:27 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need (?)
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Nancy,

It's good to hear from you again.  It also feels good to be writing here
again.  I couldn't help but respond to your post to Anita as it brought
up a few feelings and thoughts within myself.  In response to the idea
that one gets what one needs in life, you said:

>   I've thought a lot about it and talked to others.  I don't see any way
> to make it work except if it includes a belief in reincarnation.

Then perhaps it is appropriate to expand the boundaries of the possible
to allow for this.  I think that this is sometimes the hardest thing to
do, to move past our experiential logic, our proofs of sense and
experience.  In looking at this cyberspace/internet business, I don't
see how it is possible but my knowledge, my sense of logic aside, the
place exists.  There is much that exists that is outside of my awareness
of its existence.  If this concept needs reincarnation, then perhaps
there is reincarnation.  My thoughts one way or the other will do
nothing to influence the existence, the possibility of any concept or
truth.

>   I can't see how that infant girl received anything useable for this
> life.  Any of us could think of millions of other similar cases over the
> ages.

Then, perhaps it isn't important that you or I see the use of any of
these tragedies.  I don't for a moment think that I/you/we are the final
judge of anything.  We are all in the same fishbowl and it is liekly an
impossible task to stand outside the fishbowl and declaim right and
wrong, useful or not useful, good or evil.  Individuals are not gods.

>   One can, I think, suppose that as the murdered infant returns to the
> Light she has learned something from the experience that may be applicable
> to ... oh, say her own treatment of an infant in a preceding life.  Still
> is it just or in someway useful for the infant of this life have to feel
>  the horror of her treatment in this life at the hands of her own father
>  with no conscious awareness of its applicability?  All this seems to
>  indicate the presence of some sort of god.  But it seems to me it must
>  be a very cruel one.

Just or not just.  Again, if there is a god, if there is reincarnation,
if there is a getting of what one needs, then all this lies beyond our
scope of logic and experience.  We rescue a butterfly or a trapped
rabbit then make a trip to Macdonalds for burgers and fries wearing Nike
shoes.  How dare we eat when another is starving?  How dare we keep the
salaries we earn while others suffer from want?  How dare we continue to
breathe and consume when it is destroying this beautiful place and it is
robbing from the inheritance of generations to come, robbing from our
grandchildren?  The picture is too big and it is necessary to suspend
judgements or else on goes insane.

>   Perhaps it is only our own need for meaning and our need to think that
> somehow the Universe is set up to lend significance to our own individual
> small selves.

In the absence of this, the world, the universe becomes meaning-less and
we are reduced to survival for the species sake with no need for
theologies, legal systems, philosophies, or psychologies other than for
meeting survival needs at the species level.  Art, music ... wasted
energy and wasted lives.

>   I'd welcome any light any of you might care to shed on this matter.
> It all makes Little Lamp feel the infinitesimalness of her own tiny glow.

That we even entertain thoughts of god(s) and goddessess, that we even
hold these thoughts of reincarnation and meaning suggests that these
things have some life.  That these types of thinking/beliefs have
occurred over millenia and all over the globe adds to potential that our
psychic experience has validity (scientific probability).  A universal
metaphysics in harmony.

Robert
- a tiny candle of light lost in the brilliance of the collective light
of ...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:41:29 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: dis-association

On Thu, 1 Oct 1998 13:59:06 EDT, Susan Leonard <SLL248950@AOL.COM> wrote:

>My name is Susan, I'm married and have one young son.  I came from an abusive
>backgrd.  I'm on antidepressants for major depression and in therapy with a
>female psychiatrist who I like and trust.  It has been found I have strong
>dissociative tendencies with some occurrences of things I don't remember.  I
>have not been diagnosed with DID.  I don't really know what to expect here so
>I'd like to just read some posts for a while.
>

Hi Susan,  I'm glad to see you here and hope you will 'associate' with us.
Particulary I hope you will say more about 'dissocation' as you know it now
and as you get in touch with it more through therapy.  It's one of the
areas that interests me a lot but with which I don't feel as much in touch
as I'd like.  (Perhaps I've dissociated from it?)  I think it usually
refers to gaps between thoughts and feelings which really belong together.
Like everything else, we all have it to some degree.
  Is that what it means to you?
  I also empathize about the depression as my Seasonal Affective Disorder
seems to be tightening its icky tentacles.  (Hah!  This place is a give.
It just dawned on me that's why I put little suckers on my red starfish
Thus night)
  Congratulations on finding a therapist you can like.  That's half the
battle.
   Nancy

>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:37:16 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Removal from list R.I.P

A special thanks to Judith and Stephen for the great
insights of the month.  Both 'bait and switch' and 'double
bind' are wonderful in their light shedding...several
thousand candles surely.
  I also liked JoAnn's image of the broken eggs in the
nest.  I guess I would have it 'frozen' eggs.  That was
how I felt the wished for drowning of my imaginary child
effected the presenting of more imaginative creations here.
As noted it was no longer a safe place for them.
  To Fritz I would echo Stephen in his reference to the
difference between what works for Feeling and Thinking
types.  We did in fact 'freeze' Julienne out on numberous
evenings.  I know it was as hard for other Feelers to see
the midnight hour close on some three or so of her lonely
posts hanging there unanswered.  I know she felt it as yet
another narcissistic wound which made it even harder for
her not to seek revenge as a form of redress at the next
opportunity.  Mostly us Feelers could only maintain the
'Freezing' as long as our irritation level was high.
  It was so upsetting that I got so I would only check into
Psyber-L early in the day when my energy and resistence
were relatively high.
  If I understand Walter rightly, our failure was that we
were simply unable to 'reach' Julienne.  We could not make
her hear anything we said that called her behavior or
thought patterns into question in the least little bit.
  I don't know how we could have done better.  I wish I did
for future use.

  Best to all,

        Nancy

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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1998 16:39:44 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: breathe Eros and Psyche

On Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:06:27 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:


>Tower:
>"Psyche came to me in a state.  Aphrodite has been driving her ... to the
>point of despair, suicide, death.  She comes to me so she can jump off and
>kill herself. Psyche is being forced by Aphrodite to go into the underworld
>and get Persephone's beauty ointment.  It is like asking her to die, and so
>she almost does.
>
>I don't want her to die, i want Psyche to have her breath!
>
>Psyche, here are the instructions, the maps to the secret places where you
>will find that you can get to Hades.  First to the opening where the
>underworld gets its breath.  You will need two cakes and two coins.
>
>AND when you get the cask with the ointment YOU MUST NOT OPEN IT!"

               *                          *             @
       *                        @               *
                       *
  Mom, We need Psyche to answered...ah...Mr. Walter. (He
didn't give me permission to call him Uncle, did he, Mom?)


  Mom, Why aren't you answering me, Mom?
                           out
  she's          KINDA          of
           been                        TOUCH

lately                        Llamp?
        han't
                  SHE

  Yes, To, she has.  It makes me feel sad.  I hope she'll
get over it soon.

        Yesh           TOO
             me

  Maybe in the meantime we can go on with the myth?
                      WHY
  Okay                         daya

          Llamp                        THINK
      don't                 a
we              HAVE                Psyche?

   Do           THINK                 doesn't
        you               Meeseo               want

                                        to
do               IT?

  I don't know, To.  She hasn't said anything for a long
time.  She teaches and it's pretty close to the beginning
of the term still.  Maybe she's too busy.  Or maybe she's
like to know if others want her to play Psyche beside just
you and me and Mom.
                          I
   I            MEESEO         wish
         like                           SHE'D
come
         back

  Yes.  I do to.  To...

                                  YESTH?

  I wonder it you could talk in some sort of pattern.  It
would be easier for folks to read.

  Oh                this
      how                 Llamp?
          ABOUT

  Maybe.  That's sort of like one of Mom's haiku patterns.
If it's not too hard, let's try it for a while.
             I'LL
  Okay                  try...
      Llamp

  I sure do wish Mom would find her copy of Amor and Psche,
don't you?

  YESTH    don'           IT'S          tha
       I         think          under       BED
  I
     don' LIKE           THERE
                 to             much
                    go                IT'S
dry                Mr.Bear's
    an'                       hair
         FULLA                      SORTA
  like
      a              web
        SPIDER                burrrr...

  I think she already looked there, To.  See if you can
think of any place else.

  O
    k
      a
        y






































____________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:45:18 -0600
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: breathe Eros and Psyche
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Nancy,

Words for Llamp and To ...

I've                    waiting
   been                    to see
     flying                   if the
        in these                 two of you
           empty                    were going to
             skies                      play
                                           again.

You know, eagles are kind of lonely old birds, especially the bald ones.
(Do you know why they are bald?  They think too much ... ha ha ha!)
Eagles forget to speak and soon forget that speaking is necessary for
those who are not eagles.  I guess in a way that makes eagles kind of
out of touch, just like Mom's sometimes.

But, I want you to know that eagles have great eyesight and watch
everything very carefully.  This eagle especially.  Even when you think
you are all alone, you are watched and loved.  You might not even know
that I am there in the sky because sometimes I fly so high that you
can't see me though I can still see you.

Just like Meeseo, I am a teacher too.  And just like the two of you I
have mythed the myth (it's a funny Llamp ... see, To is laughing).

>    Do           THINK                 doesn't
>         you               Meeseo               want
>
>                                         to
> do               IT?

Like all butterflies, Meeseo protects herself from storms and such.
Meeseo always wants to play in the sunshine and with the children and
with you.  You know, she's shy ... a lot like you Llamp (eagle gives
Llamp a special smile).

>                           I
>    I            MEESEO         wish
>          like                           SHE'D
> come
>          back
>
>   Yes.  I do to.  To...

And so do I ... maybe if we wish hard enough and think warm sunny
thoughts, she will hear us and fly to us.

aigle (a French eagle)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:53:54 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: breathe Eros and Psyche

On Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:45:18 -0600, Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>Words for Llamp and To ...
>
>I've                    waiting
>   been                    to see
>     flying                   if the
>        in these                 two of you
>           empty                    were going to
>             skies                      play
>                                           again.

>Like all butterflies, Meeseo protects herself from storms and such.
>Meeseo always wants to play in the sunshine and with the children and
>with you.  You know, she's shy ... a lot like you Llamp (eagle gives
>Llamp a special smile).

   Wish
            Meeseo
                     WOULD
                            come
                                   back
>
>And so do I ... maybe if we wish hard enough and think warm sunny
>thoughts, she will hear us and fly to us.
>
  He sounds nice, To.  As if he were used to talking to kids.
I wonder what we should call him.  Mr. Eagle, maybe?

  I
      donno
             LLAMP
                   what

>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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>
>

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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:05:17 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: breathe Eros and Psyche

On Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:53:54 -0400, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM> wrote:

>On Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:45:18 -0600, Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA> wrote:
>
>>Nancy,
>>
>>Words for Llamp and To ...
>>
>>I've                    waiting
>>   been                    to see
>>     flying                   if the
>>        in these                 two of you
>>           empty                    were going to
>>             skies                      play
>>                                           again.
>
>>Like all butterflies, Meeseo protects herself from storms and such.
>>Meeseo always wants to play in the sunshine and with the children and
>>with you.  You know, she's shy ... a lot like you Llamp (eagle gives
>>Llamp a special smile).
>
>   Wish
>            Meeseo
>                     WOULD
>                            come
>                                   back
>>
>>And so do I ... maybe if we wish hard enough and think warm sunny
>>thoughts, she will hear us and fly to us.
>>
>  He sounds nice, To.  As if he were used to talking to kids.
>I wonder what we should call him.  Mr. Eagle, maybe?
>
>  I
>      donno
>             LLAMP
>                   what
                         do
                             E-E-Eagles
                                        e-e-eat?
  Oh, Bear.  Why did you hit 'send'?  We were'nt finished
yet.
  I don't know Llamp.   I-I don't know what they eat.  I
wonder if Mr. Eagle has any ideas as to who might want to
play whom in the play.

  Maybe             the
         under            BED
isn't
         so
               B-BAD              at
least                   for
                                    NOW?





________________________________


______________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:35:34 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need (?)

On Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:27:27 -0600, Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>It's good to hear from you again.  It also feels good to be writing here
>again.  I couldn't help but respond to your post to Anita as it brought
>up a few feelings and thoughts within myself.  In response to the idea
>that one gets what one needs in life, you said:

N: I appreciate your response, Robert, but aren't at all sure
I understand it.  Possibly by the time I work through this I
will unerstand better.

>
>>   I've thought a lot about it and talked to others.  I don't see any way
>> to make it work except if it includes a belief in reincarnation.
>
>Then perhaps it is appropriate to expand the boundaries of the possible
>to allow for this.  I think that this is sometimes the hardest thing to
>do, to move past our experiential logic, our proofs of sense and
>experience.  In looking at this cyberspace/internet business, I don't
>see how it is possible but my knowledge, my sense of logic aside, the
>place exists.  There is much that exists that is outside of my awareness
>of its existence.  If this concept needs reincarnation, then perhaps
>there is reincarnation.  My thoughts one way or the other will do
>nothing to influence the existence, the possibility of any concept or
>truth.

N: I start with several premisses.  That I cannot expect to
understand the workings of the Universe.  That I have both
and inclination and a duty to try.  I quite liked Jungs
notion the the Snake in the Garden was carrying out god's
will (or more likely the will of his mother. who must
have been very tired of Yahweh's inflation by that time!)
It's have to suppose (as my family's fundamentalists might)
that it was the Devil who gave us the ability to analize and
think for ourselves.
  All this also reminds me of the movie, "Circle of Iron"
which premised that the causal events for what happens to
us may not have happened yet.

>>   I can't see how that infant girl received anything useable for this
>> life.  Any of us could think of millions of other similar cases over the
>> ages.
>
>Then, perhaps it isn't important that you or I see the use of any of
>these tragedies.  I don't for a moment think that I/you/we are the final
>judge of anything.  We are all in the same fishbowl and it is liekly an
>impossible task to stand outside the fishbowl and declaim right and
>wrong, useful or not useful, good or evil.  Individuals are not gods.
>
N:  Well, yes, in a way.  I do think we live in a vindicive
society.  When we evenually become more enlightened the
emphasis will be on 'understanding' people and events.
Right now most of what we do in law seems to make things
(and people) worse.  Still since I have been cast in that
role I can exercize my present to minimize the harm as much
as possible.
   I must insist (for myself, at least) that it is part of
why were are here to try to understand all that we can.

>>   One can, I think, suppose that as the murdered inf
ant returns to the
>> Light she has learned something from the experience that may be applicable
>> to ... oh, say her own treatment of an infant in a preceding life.  Still
>> is it just or in someway useful for the infant of this life have to feel
>>  the horror of her treatment in this life at the hands of her own father
>>  with no conscious awareness of its applicability?  All this seems to
>>  indicate the presence of some sort of god.  But it seems to me it must
>>  be a very cruel one.
>
>Just or not just.  Again, if there is a god, if there is reincarnation,
>if there is a getting of what one needs, then all this lies beyond our
>scope of logic and experience.  We rescue a butterfly or a trapped
>rabbit then make a trip to Macdonalds for burgers and fries wearing Nike
>shoes.  How dare we eat when another is starving?  How dare we keep the
>salaries we earn while others suffer from want?  How dare we continue to
>breathe and consume when it is destroying this beautiful place and it is
>robbing from the inheritance of generations to come, robbing from our
>grandchildren?  The picture is too big and it is necessary to suspend
>judgements or else on goes insane.
>
N: Well, no, I don't believe all of it lies beyond the scope of out abilitis
I guess I 'like' to suppose that whatever powers that be present like the
World Book which begins at the fourth grade for each article and goes on
to ummm...middle school level?  Only, of course life must challange far
beyond what we can grasp.
  So, you see, I am not without hope or a sense of meaning.  It's just
that individually 'lives lessons' seem to me far too harsh to be very
effective...again for the individual.  And, yes, Robert, I was given some
capacity to reason, judge and reach conclusions  (however tentative or
transitory) I believe that since I was given them, I am expected to use
them.

>>   Perhaps it is only our own need for meaning and our need to think that
>> somehow the Universe is set up to lend significance to our own individual
>> small selves.
>
>In the absence of this, the world, the universe becomes meaning-less and
>we are reduced to survival for the species sake with no need for
>theologies, legal systems, philosophies, or psychologies other than for
>meeting survival needs at the species level.  Art, music ... wasted
>energy and wasted lives.
>
>>   I'd welcome any light any of you might care to shed on this matter.
>> It all makes Little Lamp feel the infinitesimalness of her own tiny glow.
>
>That we even entertain thoughts of god(s) and goddessess, that we even
>hold these thoughts of reincarnation and meaning suggests that these
>things have some life.  That these types of thinking/beliefs have
>occurred over millenia and all over the globe adds to potential that our
>psychic experience has validity (scientific probability).  A universal
>metaphysics in harmony.
>
>Robert
>- a tiny candle of light lost in the brilliance of the collective light
>of ...

N: Well, here I am at the bottom.  If someone were to ask me, "Does
Robert agree with your believe that life is too harsh?  And if he does, what speculations
might he entertain as to the use of this?"
 I guess I'd have for answer, "Well... I donno...  But I'd glad he is my
freind here."
  And THAT pretty much sums up most of my experience here on Psyber-L!




>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:19:49 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      (fwd) [Fwd: Expiration of your subscription ... from Susan Swan
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On Thu, 08 Oct 1998 09:44:22 -0500, Susan Swan <sswan@usd.edu> wrote:

Walter--I give up. As ridiculous as it sounds, it is too much emotional
load for me to have to deal with having the system fail to renew my
subscription every single time.  Even though I reply as told, this still
always comes back and this time it apparently wiped both listings that
we had placed in the system to keep this very thing from happening. In
addition, the level of tension continuously created in this group over
the past year or so has been too much for me in a life which teeters on
the edge even without additional bickering.  So this time, just leave me
off the list, but please post this message and the following note for me
to the group as I'd like to say goodbye properly.

Dear all--especially Walter, Hoon, Marie, Judith, Robert, and
Charles----This is a goodbye to you all here in Psyber space.  Somehow
the "renewal" process for this list refuses to allow me to renew and
this time I just can't find the emotional energy to face what seems like
very diddly stuff to stay on the list--the practical problems with
renewal seem to mirror my struggles with other types of renewal in this
space too.  I am worn too thin though and find I've nothing left to pull
from.  Many of you have gifted me, as a part of the group and as an
individual Self, with more insight, inspiration, and caring than you can
possibly imagine. While the Dreamgroup shattered, the experience overall
was quite profound intellectually, spiritually, and personally.  Those
joys have become scarcer in this space, esp. since the Wilbur-wars, and
it has been harder and harder for me to break through and even note that
I am listening as even the listening has been too painful. I know some
of you see this type of open conflict as a good--I respect that but
cannot share that and have found myself feeling emotionally beaten by
the waves of the conversation here. As I sit here, the tears roll down
my face and I feel a terrible sadness at the loss of what had been here
at one point, what emerges oh so faintly now and again, and the
possibilities which I seem to need to step back from. Thank you all for
sharing of yourselves. with love and warmth--Susan

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:55:42 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: (fwd) [Fwd: Expiration of your subscription ... from Susan
              Swan
Comments: cc: sswan@usd.edu
In-Reply-To:  <36218004.4363968@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dear Susan,

I have posted your email in Psyber-L as you requested and am replying in the
list, with a copy to you.

I am very sorry that you are finding the "renewal" process so difficult and that
you are leaving.  I respect your needs and feelings & also hope that you might
be part of other Psybernet ventures ... perhaps ones not so complex and
experimental in their design.

I put renewal in quotes as you did ... I think it is more about the process than
the technical hitch.  I hope both can be smoother in the future!  The technichal
one, frustrating as it is, is one that is somewhat  comprehensible to me.  For
what it is worth, for you or others I will give you my comment:

~~~

You have 2 addresses one is set to No Mail and you are still subbed with that
one:  sswan@USD.EDU  you could still write to the list from a mailer which
inserted that address.  You could also do that from the web (see url in the sig
below)

When the other address sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU is about to expire a response is
required from a mailer set to that address

Confusing!  I am looking into a way of by passing this process for anyone who is
really here and requests it.  The Renewl process has been very effective in
keeping the list doewn to those who are *really* here.  The problem does not
arise  for an address that has posted to the list during the last four months
Whatever the problem is I am willing to fiddle around till it is fixed.

~~~

I understand that your pain is more about life on both sides of the screen.  I
hope that you have a look at the responses to your post and have a good process
in this, if-it-must-be-so ending.

Let me know if you would like me to remove the final address from the list ...
right now you are still here, able to read, write, or change the no mail option
as long as you use the sswan@usd.edu address.  It can all be done  the web site.


http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

Here too email confirmations are required and with the two machines or
addresses?  you may get into some trouble -- let me know if you need help.

Sad that you are leaving, I hope you'll change your mind, and that your depth of
feeling and expression of difficulty will contribute to a positive process and
better times!

Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1998 01:59:04 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Renewal

All,

I have just learnt that I can set people to NORENEW

SET listname NORENEW FOR user@domain.com

If you are sure you want to be on the list and have a reason to be on NORENEW, (such as a No Mail account) let me know in private mail.

We live & learn.


Walter

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1998 12:10:13 GMT
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Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Removal from list
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998100415371725@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nancy,  All,
on   Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:37:16 -0400 you wrote:

>   I don't know how we could have done better.  I wish I did for future use.

I have appreciated (and felt uncomfortable about ) the reflections on our
process around the recent removal of one of the participants here. I don't know
how we could have done better ... but it is much on my mind.

With regard to our personal efforts given the shape and form & history of
Psyber-L i think we did what we could, many of us have given this our best shot
over a long time.

I am not sure how much the overall structure and process of Psyber-L contributed
to our process --  I think a lot.  As the owner of the place I reflect on what
could have been done differently.  I will post up some thoughts on that soon.  I
hope that we not only reflect on our personal contribution but also on the way
Psyber-L is designed and run.  How does all that effect the psyche in
cyberspace?


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:27:15 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <39a2f184.511843962@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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All,

I am present in psyberspace & in the quiet of Psyber-L.


*  My copy of Amor and Psyche has arrived from:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0691017727/psybernbooksinasA/

I hope you have found yours again Nancy!  I am skimming and absorbing.
I am conscious that though it might seem thin to some there is a
backdrop to us looking at the myth and how it applies to the Psyche
here in Psyber-L.


*  I have been browsing and fiddling with the Psybernet web site,
updating the Links page -- and also the resources for online
conferences.

http://psybernet.co.nz/links.htm
http://psybernet.co.nz/list_resources.htm

I do this as I am reading and thinking about what we are up to here.

Does anyone else have this compulsion to weave on the web? Post us an
url.


*  I have confirmed the subscription of a some new people to Psyber-L:
Welcome to this forum, please introduce yourself and let us know what
brings you here.  If you are curious and the list is quiet for a spell
check out the history on the web archive.  Feel free to revive any
topic we have started there or begin a new one.  See the URL on the
bottom of every email that comes to the list.


*  I am writing up an idea for subscription process to Psyber-L and
some Psybernet evolution and will post it very soon.


*  My friend Dan is busy with his cyber ventures and we are taking a
lot about the varieties of online communication and its purposes --
conviviality, discussion, knowledge etc.  What do you think:

http://www.groupsense.co.nz/


*  I find myself up late and fiddling with an essay on psyberspace &
jotting down ideas for another on online leadership roles.


*  I am occasionally involved in discussions of a Psyber-L type in
other forums, and enjoying the foray abroad.

~~~

All this fills my mindspace between my work as a psychotherapist each
day.  My practice is unusually busy, which is good.  And ... Kate & I
are preparing for our wedding in November!  That is going really well
and each day there is a list of stuff to do.  I bought new shoes
today, the ring yesterday!  Josh is coming over from London & its not
far away.

The other thing we have been doing is thinking about Christmas /
Summer holidays.  Wellington with family, followed by tramping &
camping in the NI around the volcanoes.


What else is happening?



Walter














__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:24:50 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???

On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:27:15 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:

>All,
>
>I am present in psyberspace & in the quiet of Psyber-L.
>
>
>*  My copy of Amor and Psyche has arrived from:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0691017727/psybernbooksinasA/
>
>I hope you have found yours again Nancy!


  Yes, Walter.  I did find mine...about two days ago where I had ever so
carefully put it right to the left side of my head, a thin white book on
white shelves.  Taken, I suppose for a haiku journal, if taken at all,
since I'd made up my mine that I had badly misslaid it.
  I hesitate to mention this in response to your busy, happy post, but
I've been stuggling with the sad feelings which seem to begin about mid
August every year.  All hurtful things seem 'personal'.  I mentioned that
the list had attempted to inhibit responses to Julienne so that her
evening posts would hang...isolated, seemingly shunned.
  Then when I tried to return to play, to air a trouble...there my posts
hung...unanswered...for days.
  After a while I sent a post with only a subject line.  "Was it something
'we' said?"  I asked.  The post never showed up.  I tried to email you,
Walter, to see if there was some technical problem with the List as a
whole.  My message bounced back to me.  I couldn't seem to find any of the
commands.  (It had been a long time since I'd used them.)  So then I
just gave up and waited.
  So there is my sad little tale.  It hurts my pride to sound 'pathetic'.
I don't like it.  But sometimes the only way to reality test to to be
honest about where one is.

  As for Amor and Psyche, I liked it because it seemed to dramatize the
story more than anything else I'd seem.  The commentary, too, has much
to offer.  Yet I tend to feel that Neumann tends to be somewhat of the
'old' patriarchal school.

  I'm glad to know that the List is still 'working'.

  Hesitantly,  Nancy


>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:32:14 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101313245132@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:24:50 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:

>  I hesitate to mention this in response to your busy, happy post, but
>I've been stuggling with the sad feelings which seem to begin about mid
>August every year.  All hurtful things seem 'personal'.  I mentioned that
>the list had attempted to inhibit responses to Julienne so that her
>evening posts would hang...isolated, seemingly shunned.

I think that was just no one wanting to play that particular game again.  At
least that's what I was feeling, can't speak for anyone else.

>  Then when I tried to return to play, to air a trouble...there my posts
>hung...unanswered...for days.
>  After a while I sent a post with only a subject line.  "Was it something
>'we' said?"  I asked.  The post never showed up.  I tried to email you,
>Walter, to see if there was some technical problem with the List as a
>whole.  My message bounced back to me.  I couldn't seem to find any of the
>commands.  (It had been a long time since I'd used them.)  So then I
>just gave up and waited.
>  So there is my sad little tale.  It hurts my pride to sound 'pathetic'.
>I don't like it.  But sometimes the only way to reality test to to be
>honest about where one is.

Nancy, I'm sorry that you felt ignored.  You don't sound pathetic to me.  I have
been in your shoes, wondering who's out there, why they don't say anything, yet
I too am guilty of being silent.  It's uncomfortable to admit that just as it is
uncomfortable for you to describe your feelings in this instance.

Walter, how many people are on the list now?  However many it is, when no one
responds, it feels cold.

>  As for Amor and Psyche, I liked it because it seemed to dramatize the
>story more than anything else I'd seem.  The commentary, too, has much
>to offer.  Yet I tend to feel that Neumann tends to be somewhat of the
>'old' patriarchal school.
>
>  I'm glad to know that the List is still 'working'.

Or at least it's still existing.

-JoAnne

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:43:49 -0600
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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JoAnne, Nancy, Walter, all ...

I am finding that I have little to say and little desire to try to find
anything to say.  I am busy with the JUNG list and find that place a
happier place in which to spend my time.

Something has changed here and I don't know what it is.  I think the
list has somehow shifted and I now feel out of sync with it.  I hope
this changes.  Susan's leaving added to this, reflected this somewhat.

What now?

Robert

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:51:23 -0400
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From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
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Walter, JoAnne, Nancy, Robert,  All

  I've been very busy with my real world life since the birth of my second
granddaughter on September 19th so I haven't said anything on the list, but
reading the last couple of posts led me to think back to my post of August
21st when I asked "what was happening?"

 I'm no longer asking that question instead I watch and sometimes
participate in the flow and ebb of the list, enjoying the posts at times
and not paying much attention at others (with no disrespect meant when I
don't pay attention). It's just that my life is busy now and I don't always
have the energy to give.

 I sincerely appreciate all those who wished me congratulations on the
birth of my second granddaughter, Cheyenne. They really helped me to
celebrate my joy.

 To speculate a little on Robert's question "What now?"  , perhaps the list
will continue to ebb and flow, whatever the state I continue to enjoy the
movement and will participate when I can.

   Janell

At 04:43 PM 10/13/98 -0600, you wrote:
>JoAnne, Nancy, Walter, all ...
>
>I am finding that I have little to say and little desire to try to find
>anything to say.  I am busy with the JUNG list and find that place a
>happier place in which to spend my time.
>
>Something has changed here and I don't know what it is.  I think the
>list has somehow shifted and I now feel out of sync with it.  I hope
>this changes.  Susan's leaving added to this, reflected this somewhat.
>
>What now?
>
>Robert

____________________________________________________________
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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:19:58 -0700
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From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Hello again
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Hello all,

I've been absent from this list for nearly a year. Since that time I have
moved from California to Oregon. There is no particularly deep or
profound reason why I left the list - the proximate cause was a
malfunction in my computer which has taken me until just recently to
conclusively repair. This along with a major move and all the attending
busyness. I checked in a couple of times on the archives but without much
real seriousness. Anyway, I've decided to give it another whirl - I've
seen some familiar names - hello to you all.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 00:37:12 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Hello again
In-Reply-To:  <36240A4E.1A77@coinet.com>
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Hiya Cheryl,

Your reentry is welcome, just because it's positive to have good folk cycle
back in.

***

I've been busy distracting myself. Bought a didjeridoo at the Whole Life
Expo, so I blow into that holee space until I get light headed. Wrapped up
the first phase of web work for my friend Tom, the singer-songwriter,
(www.texico.com) and the second beta version of Judith and my partnership's
web presence, (junior.apk.net/~hoon/sq1.html), and then a month ago she and
I made about our fourth or fifth debut, this time at that same expo. As
reported here previously, it went very well.

It's baseball season and as I write this the Indians are on the verge of
losing to the Yankees. Oh well, baseball season was much more fun than not,
again, this year. I've been writing pretentious essays as a way of getting
the gears working, while plotting a book of sorts connected with squareONE.
I do this mostly at work which is a tricky way of making my somewhat silly
'day' job worthwhile. Now a few days ago I moved the stereo up into the
room the computer is in, so I'm revisiting my record collection which,
(except for the reggae and r&b and old bop records I'll sometimes take into
the store and play,) for almost three years, has remained unheard. (The
first record I played was _Treasure Island_ by Keith Jarrett.) This has led
to a routine of getting up, blowing into the didgeridoo for a few minutes,
flipping or putting on a new record, returning to the computer to write, or
surf the web, or read email.

Been reading, including defacement of _Amor and Psyche_ with a yellow
highlighter, and, as usual no matter what the material is I manage to
inflate the connections between it all into anappropriateness with whatever
pretentious synthesis my creative attention is focused on. For example, the
last week I've been pondering intuition and intention. I won't go into the
pretentious part!

Oddly, almost all the big ripples involving the various dramas and episodes
in friend's and family member's lives, (my life in some sense too,) have
been smoothed out.

Planning on doing some prototyping prior to another squareONE debut after
the first of the year. Includes doing some low level entrainment work
(which uses music programmatically more than in a synchronous-to-chakra
manner, ) because next year Judith and I are going to royally wed paper
making with music questing.

Caught up on email to this extent: deleted hundreds of lower priority
emails, and then slogged my way through jung-circle, jung-group,
wire-digest, and very selectively through strat-baseball and music lists
global-music, monk, and iDM. Actually this describes an ordeal but also
there were lots of gems uncovered.

Drive the rent-a-kid to high school every now and then.

This hardly describes what it's like, umm, being me. On the other hand,
even as a description of living, I wouldn't have predicted this is what I'd
be doing. Oh, I knew not much would ever get established! :-)

***

I tell you this my friends because it is so different yet each has their
own blazing trail ablaze, yes? (No?)

What's *your* report?

***

A student, feeling advanced after much hard study under his master, hatched
a plan to both embarrass the master and perhaps bring some of the younger
students into a study group he hoped to form. (You see, he was convinced he
was to become a teacher.)

His plan was simple: he would capture a small bird and holding it captive
in his hand, would test the master. He captured the bird and approached the
master who was conducting class by a tree.

"If you are so wise, tell me if this bird in my hand is dead, or alive?"

(If the master guessed the bird was dead, he would open his hand and the
bird would escape; if the master guessed the  bird was alive, he would
quickly crush the bird and expose its lifeless form.)

The master looked at him. The student asked again, "Is this bird dead, or
alive?"

"My student, it is up to you."

***

(JoAnne, I know where we left off. About groups, about everything, I would
suggest, there is a great complexity, much of it  hidden like the mass of
an iceburg. I know I feel on top of much when the reality is really that
almost the entirety of everything is hidden from me.)

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:22:08 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19981013215123.0086d350@philly.infi.net>
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Janell

> To speculate a little on Robert's question "What now?"  , perhaps the list
> will continue to ebb and flow, whatever the state I continue to enjoy the
> movement and will participate when I can.

Sounds good.

Nancy summed up my last post as happy & busy ... I thought that fits!
Yes happy & busy!  Wow.  Then JoAnne wrote:

"Walter, how many people are on the list now?  However many it is,
when no one responds, it feels cold. "

I realised that I felt cold here too!  Drat.  Cold! There has been a
winter here ... no doubt.  (there are about 34 to have a look whose
here send: review Psyber-L to the listserv.)

I like the note you bring Janell enjoying the movement flow ebb or
whatever.

I don't take that as a casual shrug or the whatever of non committal.
Rather a patience ... the sort of thing we do with the ebb and flow of
the psyche, allowing.  Psyber-L as a group - list - living entity goes
through its painful journey - yet I think it must if it is to mirror
some of the pain we bring from our lives.


Walter





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:35:39 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Hello again
In-Reply-To:  <36240A4E.1A77@coinet.com>
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Cheryl

> I've been absent from this list for nearly a year.

Good to have you back!  I have wondered, out loud here too, if you
were here.  I'm pleased you are here ... a lot has happened in that
year, for you by the sound of it, & here too!  Here in Psyber-L I
mean, but here too in Christchurch, as I mentioned just before you
subscribed again, Cheryl, a wedding and cyber-plans with Dan etc.  I
am also part of two small groups that meet regularly ... that is a new
development.

Tonight I met with one of them. Four of us who share our life's
ventures and our projects ... mostly related to online interests ...
ranging into the cosmic. What a buzz we have.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:24:45 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???

On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:32:14 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:24:50 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:
>
>>  I hesitate to mention this in response to your busy, happy post, but
>>I've been stuggling with the sad feelings which seem to begin about mid
>>August every year.  All hurtful things seem 'personal'.  I mentioned that
>>the list had attempted to inhibit responses to Julienne so that her
>>evening posts would hang...isolated, seemingly shunned.
>
>I think that was just no one wanting to play that particular game again.  At
>least that's what I was feeling, can't speak for anyone else.
>
N: So, if I'm understanding you, you are saying that on
many evenings Julienne's 3 plus messages would hang in
space unanswered simply because noone wanted to bother?
  And yet there was no thought of what message that would
convey to her?  I'm really interested in this as it
represents sort of a life long puzzlement for me.  I've
always 'read people', read all sorts of things into what
they said and perhaps even more what it seemed to me they
'would have said' but didn't.  I've never had much of
any forum in which to reality check much of this. This
has meant that there is a point beyond which I can't
become a consensual person, can't withdraw my projections
because it isn't possible to clearly which are
projections and which accurate...if...picky? too accute...
perceptions.
  I'm not sure if this is an interest of yours, JoAnn.
If not, I will respect that (typally probably).  But
perhaps others?


>
>Nancy, I'm sorry that you felt ignored.  You don't sound pathetic to me.  I have
>been in your shoes, wondering who's out there, why they don't say anything, yet
>I too am guilty of being silent.  It's uncomfortable to admit that just as it is
>uncomfortable for you to describe your feelings in this instance.
>
N: Well, yes.  I did and it's not fun.  But I'm fairly
used to dealing with that.  (Aren't we all?  Or to echo
Stephen, are we?  Perhaps not.)  The thing was I feared
I was responsible.  That in the group's eyes I had somehow
transgressed.  (I don't particularly get that sense from
the flow that's occurred today.)
  The one thing I forgot to include in what I'd hoped
way my summing up about Julienne, was that I think she
may have particularly bothered you and me for the same
reason...that is a lack of reason.  To use the ancient
Greek device, that was my mother's place in our family
The Unreasonable One...or perhaps The Unreasoning One.
I kept having the reaction: 'This can't be.' 'Nobody
would willfully be like this.' 'It must be some sort
of subtle cry for help.''Surely if we can get her
to understand, she'll change and be so happy to have
found the answer.'
  It sounds sort of silly now I've spelled it out.
I guess much of the trouble I had with my ex-husband was
based on a similar sort of illusory assumption.  I still
don't really understand either of those two people (three
counting Julienne, except maybe in my head, in psychiatric
terms, but at least now I can sort of smile
at my part in the transaction.
  Thanks, JoJo.  You've just reillustrated for me why I
like your sort of T.  You stay related and yet manage
to blow some of the 'fuzz' away.

>Walter, how many people are on the list now?  However many it is, when no one
>responds, it feels cold.
>
N: I too wondered and found the command.  Thirty-five is
down from the 45 or 50 when I joined.  I'm wondering
how much the fluctuation has been in the past?

  Nancy
  Feeling a little more at home, 'here' at least.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 07:35:09 -0700
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Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Report
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hoon, Walter, all,

Much has happened in a year. Here's my 'report', Hoon:

At the moment there isn't much that is routine. I've been in Oregon for
one week as a resident. There are still boxes to be unpacked, others to
put into storage. I don't have a job yet but have been in conversation
with some employers and have actually turned down a couple. A couple of
days ago I saw a couple of cowboys pull up to a roadside stand and I
wondered where I had moved. It was a giggle.

I am in Central Oregon, less rain, mountains 1/2 hr. away, large open
spaces everywhere. I am very glad to be out of the San Francisco Bay
Area. I am not unhappy to leave the traffic, the crowds, the frenetic
pace. The people here move at a slower pace which I like. They seem
kinder as a result.

I have one very good friend here of 23+ years. I have made another friend
over the weekend - an 86 yr. woman who still rides the John Deere tractor
around her spacious property. Many years ago she was the first woman to
climb the Three Sisters (local mountains) in one day. She's known many of
the mountaneering greats and I'm delighted to have been introduced to
her. I'm going to take her some cookbooks today about reducing
cholesterol. I'm a little shy but I think she will receive me well.

This move is a part of my inward journey - if one pays attention, what
isn't? Sometimes you just have to shake things up a bit. I was defintiely
stagnant where I was - stuck, you might say. Interestingly, the
malfunction in my computer involved a mechanical part that was "stuck' -
everyone kept thinking it was hardware or software and couldn't figure it
out. However, it was mechanical. Now when it won't work I just take a
screwdriver and tap it in the right spot - which I think is very funny.
Here's this high tech toy that one might assume is very fragile and you
just kick it (sort of) when it won't start - like an old car or
something. After this I'm not in awe of computers anymore.

I have not worked (as in job) for a total of six working days now and
already I'm feeling guilty - like I'm a slacker or something. I have to
keep reminding myself that just because I'm enjoying not hauling myself
into an office everyday - this state of affairs is NOT a luxury but a
necessity - I have just done a major move and need to recupe, resort,
reshuffle, re-everything. Yesterday was the first day in about three
weeks that I felt rested - which led to feeling happy and lo and behold,
I hooked up again and found you guys. Hello.

Is Anita still here? Hello Joanne.

Bye for now.

Cheryl

My cat, Cleo, who, if anyone remebers, is diabetic, has withstood the
trip better than I anticipated. Although here residence right now during
daylight hours is pretty much under the bathroom sink. Which I find very
endearing and funny. Somehow she has managed to find a way to close the
door behind her when she crawls in there. I guess she really wants her
solitude cause it's dark under htere. I've decided to give up the space
and I've made a little bed in there for her. There are more animals in my
future.

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:45:26 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???

On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:43:49 -0600, Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA> wrote:

>JoAnne, Nancy, Walter, all ...
>
>I am finding that I have little to say and little desire to try to find
>anything to say.  I am busy with the JUNG list and find that place a
>happier place in which to spend my time.
>
>Something has changed here and I don't know what it is.  I think the
>list has somehow shifted and I now feel out of sync with it.  I hope
>this changes.  Susan's leaving added to this, reflected this somewhat.
>
>What now?
>
>Robert
>
Hi Robert, I'm hoping that the 'ebb and flow' will bring
life and interest back here.  In the meantime might you
post the address of the JUNG list?  I'd like to try it...
At least 'lurk' a while until I can perhaps not feel that
I am inflicting my 'sadness' on others.
  Thanks (?)
  Nancy
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:32:10 -0600
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

> Hi Robert, I'm hoping that the 'ebb and flow' will bring
> life and interest back here.

As do I.  It does seem that there is still people wanting it to happen
here. Perhaps it is more a matter of "What to say?"

> In the meantime might you
> post the address of the JUNG list?

With apologies to the others for a repost of this information, send an
e-mail to the server:
        majordomo@laplaza.org
with the message
        subscribe jung <your e-mail address>
example:
        subscribe jung mossy7@JUNO.COM

I look forward to your joining the list which is quite different.  I
hope that you also remain on this list because it is different and
because you belong here as part of the community.

Robert

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Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:01:27 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy and JoAnne if I may


>On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:32:14 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:24:50 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:
>>
>>>  I hesitate to mention this in response to your busy, happy post, but
>>>I've been stuggling with the sad feelings which seem to begin about mid
>>>August every year.  All hurtful things seem 'personal'.  I mentioned that
>>>the list had attempted to inhibit responses to Julienne so that her
>>>evening posts would hang...isolated, seemingly shunned.
>>
>>I think that was just no one wanting to play that particular game again.  At
>>least that's what I was feeling, can't speak for anyone else.

JoAnne and Nancy- I was feeling tired of the bait and switch and came to
the conclusion that tho it may have been unconscious, it was what it was
and I didn't sense any need to shift on her part...Was it you, Nancy, who
said something about thinking we all want to heal and change...my work in
personal development has not born this out...I did continue to read the
posts tho to see if there was any porousness to seep into...I never felt
invited to enter into conversation and when I tested it by askin a direct
question there was silence...I noticed a pattern of selectivity around
Julienne's responses and mine definitely were de-selected...I didn't take
it personally but then I wasn't in the direct line of fire...
>>
>N: So, if I'm understanding you, you are saying that on
>many evenings Julienne's 3 plus messages would hang in
>space unanswered simply because noone wanted to bother?
>  And yet there was no thought of what message that would
>convey to her?  I'm really interested in this as it
>represents sort of a life long puzzlement for me.  I've
>always 'read people', read all sorts of things into what
>they said and perhaps even more what it seemed to me they
>'would have said' but didn't.  I've never had much of
>any forum in which to reality check much of this. This
>has meant that there is a point beyond which I can't
>become a consensual person, can't withdraw my projections
>because it isn't possible to clearly which are
>projections and which accurate...if...picky? too accute...
>perceptions.
>  I'm not sure if this is an interest of yours, JoAnn.
>If not, I will respect that (typally probably).  But
>perhaps others?

Nancy I relate to your revelation here and I think there is a very
important aspect which goes beyond or is different from projection...it has
to do with differenciation...the ability to sense things from other things
including feelings, thots, emotions etc...this has been a lifelong teacher
for me...when I finally understood what an empath was meaning in one aspect
the ability to feel what other's feel, this made my youth make sense...in
the beginning I thot all feelings were mine and my self organizing process
made me feel crazy as it would try to align all the emotions...later I
found out that I was taking all of the energy in a room into me...I think
there is a greater aspect to this and that is when one feels enormous
sadness for example it is one's own sadness but it resonnates and is
amplified by the collective...or if everyone around you is sad this is
amplified...I have a good friend who has huge emotions and she is learning
that she is actually channeling the collective...now this might sound goofy
but this happens in cyberspace too...just offering this as my own
experience of learning what is me and what is not me...so now when I am
feeling something I always pause and ask: is this mine, all mine, or
*other(s)*...then there is the whole other framing of chords and
chakras...I had a huge need to know what I didn't see and how that might
work...anyway I hear an aspect of differenciation in your revelation from
my point of view...a skill issue masked by a psychological framing
>
>
>>
>>Nancy, I'm sorry that you felt ignored.  You don't sound pathetic to me.
>>I have
>>been in your shoes, wondering who's out there, why they don't say
>>anything, yet
>>I too am guilty of being silent.  It's uncomfortable to admit that just
>>as it is
>>uncomfortable for you to describe your feelings in this instance.
>>
>N: Well, yes.  I did and it's not fun.  But I'm fairly
>used to dealing with that.  (Aren't we all?  Or to echo
>Stephen, are we?  Perhaps not.)  The thing was I feared
>I was responsible.  That in the group's eyes I had somehow
>transgressed.  (I don't particularly get that sense from
>the flow that's occurred today.)
J: Wow, nancy, I was feeling you were holding and creating a safe space to
play...I was there with my training wheels on enjoying JoAnne's playfulness
and always yours...the transgression as far as I was concerned was
Julienne's...I'm not sure how your logic brought you to that
conclusion...tho later here you explain...

Judith gaining insight here

>  The one thing I forgot to include in what I'd hoped
>way my summing up about Julienne, was that I think she
>may have particularly bothered you and me for the same
>reason...that is a lack of reason.  To use the ancient
>Greek device, that was my mother's place in our family
>The Unreasonable One...or perhaps The Unreasoning One.
>I kept having the reaction: 'This can't be.' 'Nobody
>would willfully be like this.' 'It must be some sort
>of subtle cry for help.''Surely if we can get her
>to understand, she'll change and be so happy to have
>found the answer.'
>  It sounds sort of silly now I've spelled it out.
>I guess much of the trouble I had with my ex-husband was
>based on a similar sort of illusory assumption.  I still
>don't really understand either of those two people (three
>counting Julienne, except maybe in my head, in psychiatric
>terms, but at least now I can sort of smile
>at my part in the transaction.
>  Thanks, JoJo.  You've just reillustrated for me why I
>like your sort of T.  You stay related and yet manage
>to blow some of the 'fuzz' away.
>
>>Walter, how many people are on the list now?  However many it is, when no one
>>responds, it feels cold.
>>
>N: I too wondered and found the command.  Thirty-five is
>down from the 45 or 50 when I joined.  I'm wondering
>how much the fluctuation has been in the past?
>
>  Nancy
>  Feeling a little more at home, 'here' at least.
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:16:54 EDT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 98-10-14 10:38:35 EDT, you write:

> N: So, if I'm understanding you, you are saying that on
>  many evenings Julienne's 3 plus messages would hang in
>  space unanswered simply because noone wanted to bother?
>    And yet there was no thought of what message that would
>  convey to her?  I'm really interested in this as it
>  represents sort of a life long puzzlement for me.  I've
>  always 'read people', read all sorts of things into what
>  they said and perhaps even more what it seemed to me they
>  'would have said' but didn't.  I've never had much of
>  any forum in which to reality check much of this. This
>  has meant that there is a point beyond which I can't
>  become a consensual person, can't withdraw my projections
>  because it isn't possible to clearly which are
>  projections and which accurate...if...picky? too accute...
>  perceptions.

Nancy, I hope I'm not jumping into a dialogue between you and Jo Ann here!
But, I wanted to comment on a perception (projection?) I had about the
interactions between Julienne and other women on Psyber-L.  And, I admit that
my sense of the history of it all was limited!

But, here goes :)  My sense of Julienne was that she had little internal locus
of control.  To me, it is almost impossible to communicate with someone in
that state... he/she is too busy trying to convince me of something.  I
personally disliked a kind of representation I felt she made of *WOMAN*, and
that only she could represent our downtrodden gender (sarcasm intended).
Those were the triggers I felt from her, which may have been projection.
Nancy, Anita, Jo Anne, did you pick up any of this?

A thing I got to do in my time away from Psyber-L was to see the Dalai Lama
(not personally, but at my school.)  Frankly, most of the time I could not
understand him (poor sound and his accent), but one point he made stuck.
Someone in the audience asked him what he thought of strident, fundamental
religious folks who aggressively evangelize and try to convert others.  His
response was that (my paraphrasing) because these folks were not convinced of
God, or spirit in themselves, it was necessary for them to convince others.
So, if they could convince others to believe, they were justified.

That's similar to what seemed to me to be going on.

But then, I could be wrong :)

Sheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:11:39 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      I love this List

I just love everything everyone of you have said today so far...and
hope to keep track enough to answer each individually (Judith and Sheryl
...hope it wasn't C...? especially) individually later.
  I just got back from a visiit to my opthamologist and had my eyes
dialated.  I was so curious I had to 'spell out' each message anyway.
(Now my monitor has 'smudges'!)  So that's why not more now.
  Thank you, Robert, for your kind words.  But then you ARE a kind man.
I have no intention of leaving here.
  So many times in my life, when feeling sad, I have followed folk
wisdom and gone where other people were.  My experience with this was
that I found only bodies.  When I went physically where they were,
noone there was where I was.  If I tried to go where they were
psychically I only became more alienated from myself.  If I tried to
express this problem, it became intensified by advice that I become
more like them and less like myself (or else there was just that sort
of vaccum that sucks frightening projections from you, into you, enveloping
you... which is worse.)
  It isn't like that here.  In fact somehow I've got a notion that
everyone of you know pretty much what I mean by the above description.
  Please excuse typos.  I'm touch typing and can't hardly see how it's
turning out.
  Oh, by the way...the doctor said my vision was better...not worse...
whew!

   Nancy
th

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:06:40 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101410244603@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:24:45 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:

>On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:32:14 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:24:50 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:
>>
>>>  I hesitate to mention this in response to your busy, happy post, but
>>>I've been stuggling with the sad feelings which seem to begin about mid
>>>August every year.  All hurtful things seem 'personal'.  I mentioned that
>>>the list had attempted to inhibit responses to Julienne so that her
>>>evening posts would hang...isolated, seemingly shunned.
>>
>>I think that was just no one wanting to play that particular game again.  At
>>least that's what I was feeling, can't speak for anyone else.
>>
>N: So, if I'm understanding you, you are saying that on
>many evenings Julienne's 3 plus messages would hang in
>space unanswered simply because noone wanted to bother?
>  And yet there was no thought of what message that would
>convey to her?  I'm really interested in this as it
>represents sort of a life long puzzlement for me.

I at least was aware that by not responding I was saying something, that thing
being "I don't want to talk to you" or "I don't want to play that game again."
Yes, it does convey a message.  Sorry if it wasn't clear that I did have that in
mind.

>I've
>always 'read people', read all sorts of things into what
>they said and perhaps even more what it seemed to me they
>'would have said' but didn't.  I've never had much of
>any forum in which to reality check much of this. This
>has meant that there is a point beyond which I can't
>become a consensual person, can't withdraw my projections
>because it isn't possible to clearly which are
>projections and which accurate...if...picky? too accute...
>perceptions.
>  I'm not sure if this is an interest of yours, JoAnn.
>If not, I will respect that (typally probably).  But
>perhaps others?

It is an interest of mine.  Projections are often all people see of us, or we of
them, especially on first meeting.

>>Nancy, I'm sorry that you felt ignored.  You don't sound pathetic to me.  I have
>>been in your shoes, wondering who's out there, why they don't say anything, yet
>>I too am guilty of being silent.  It's uncomfortable to admit that just as it is
>>uncomfortable for you to describe your feelings in this instance.
>>
>N: Well, yes.  I did and it's not fun.  But I'm fairly
>used to dealing with that.  (Aren't we all?  Or to echo
>Stephen, are we?  Perhaps not.)  The thing was I feared
>I was responsible.  That in the group's eyes I had somehow
>transgressed.  (I don't particularly get that sense from
>the flow that's occurred today.)

I didn't see that at all, I didn't get any spoiler vibe from you!  I'm glad you
could share your fear so I could address it, and I hope you are feeling less of
it now.

>  The one thing I forgot to include in what I'd hoped
>way my summing up about Julienne, was that I think she
>may have particularly bothered you and me for the same
>reason...that is a lack of reason.  To use the ancient
>Greek device, that was my mother's place in our family
>The Unreasonable One...or perhaps The Unreasoning One.
>I kept having the reaction: 'This can't be.' 'Nobody
>would willfully be like this.' 'It must be some sort
>of subtle cry for help.''Surely if we can get her
>to understand, she'll change and be so happy to have
>found the answer.'

Yes.  I went through that myself.  I still have hope, though not much
expectation.

>  It sounds sort of silly now I've spelled it out.

But it's really really hard to go through that.  To think, is this person really
being straight with us?  Is this something that makes sense and I just don't see
it, there's a fact or emotion or some kind of background missing that will
enlighten me?  And to eventually realize that there is nothing that will make
this particular world view make sense to you, except in the abstract as you
suggest below:

>I guess much of the trouble I had with my ex-husband was
>based on a similar sort of illusory assumption.  I still
>don't really understand either of those two people (three
>counting Julienne, except maybe in my head, in psychiatric
>terms, but at least now I can sort of smile
>at my part in the transaction.
>  Thanks, JoJo.  You've just reillustrated for me why I
>like your sort of T.  You stay related and yet manage
>to blow some of the 'fuzz' away.

I try, thanks for the encouragement to keep trying, Nancy!

>>Walter, how many people are on the list now?  However many it is, when no one
>>responds, it feels cold.
>>
>N: I too wondered and found the command.  Thirty-five is
>down from the 45 or 50 when I joined.  I'm wondering
>how much the fluctuation has been in the past?
>
>  Nancy
>  Feeling a little more at home, 'here' at least.

Put your feet up on the coffee table.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:06:41 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???
In-Reply-To:  <aac331d1.3624dc86@aol.com>
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On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:16:54 EDT, you, Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>,
wrote:

>But, here goes :)  My sense of Julienne was that she had little internal locus
>of control.  To me, it is almost impossible to communicate with someone in
>that state... he/she is too busy trying to convince me of something.  I
>personally disliked a kind of representation I felt she made of *WOMAN*, and
>that only she could represent our downtrodden gender (sarcasm intended).
>Those were the triggers I felt from her, which may have been projection.
>Nancy, Anita, Jo Anne, did you pick up any of this?

Good point.  I never brought it up, but when looking at a "locus of control"
self-evaluation a month or two ago, I wondered how she would have completed it.

The way that the relations between men and women were stated as "never mind
about what women can do, or have done that is wrong, you men need to do x, y and
z," puts the locus of control totally out of her hands.

Her insistence that there is nothing a victim should do to avoid or reduce her
future chances for further victimhood is another good example.  Her claim is
that doing so is blaming the victim.  I thought of it as empowerment.

Her approach seems to me to be a scary way to live.  I was reading about victims
of trauma in the book _Emotional Intelligence_.  The sooner you can make them
feel safe from further attack the better.  It is an important step to give them
a feeling of control over their lives and some kind of defense against further
attack to allow them to heal.  Otherwise there's no safe space and everything
becomes a threat.

She did live her own advice.  She insisted on putting herself in emotional
harm's way repeatedly without, it seems, any respect for her own feelings.  Hard
to respect her feelings if she doesn't.  I know if I were in a group of people
who all seemed to be attacking me viciously and without reason while I was going
through major emotional trauma already, I would want to leave.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:06:41 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Report
In-Reply-To:  <3624B69D.3A39@coinet.com>
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On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 07:35:09 -0700, you, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>,
wrote:

>This move is a part of my inward journey - if one pays attention, what
>isn't? Sometimes you just have to shake things up a bit. I was defintiely
>stagnant where I was - stuck, you might say. Interestingly, the
>malfunction in my computer involved a mechanical part that was "stuck' -
>everyone kept thinking it was hardware or software and couldn't figure it
>out. However, it was mechanical. Now when it won't work I just take a
>screwdriver and tap it in the right spot - which I think is very funny.
>Here's this high tech toy that one might assume is very fragile and you
>just kick it (sort of) when it won't start - like an old car or
>something. After this I'm not in awe of computers anymore.

Ha!  You should see me in this office at work with computers in bits all over
the place.  Really demystifies them.

>I have not worked (as in job) for a total of six working days now and
>already I'm feeling guilty - like I'm a slacker or something. I have to
>keep reminding myself that just because I'm enjoying not hauling myself
>into an office everyday - this state of affairs is NOT a luxury but a
>necessity - I have just done a major move and need to recupe, resort,
>reshuffle, re-everything. Yesterday was the first day in about three
>weeks that I felt rested - which led to feeling happy and lo and behold,
>I hooked up again and found you guys. Hello.
>
>Is Anita still here? Hello Joanne.

Hi Cheryl!  Great to see you back.

>My cat, Cleo, who, if anyone remebers, is diabetic, has withstood the
>trip better than I anticipated. Although here residence right now during
>daylight hours is pretty much under the bathroom sink. Which I find very
>endearing and funny. Somehow she has managed to find a way to close the
>door behind her when she crawls in there. I guess she really wants her
>solitude cause it's dark under htere. I've decided to give up the space
>and I've made a little bed in there for her. There are more animals in my
>future.

I misread that as "there are more animals in my furniture" so I was thinking,
hmm, rats in the cupboards?  Bear in the closets?  Termites?

Like person like cat,

JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:29:14 -0700
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Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Animals in My Furniture
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Joanne,
I laughed so hard when I read 'animals in my furniture' that the tears
started rolling down my face - what an image! Animals in my furniture!!!
Bears in the cupboard is the one Ilike best. I just went to see Antz last
night so termites is a little scary.

Wow - ggod to be back.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 02:13:42 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Report
In-Reply-To:  <3624B69D.3A39@coinet.com>
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Cheryl,

> I am in Central Oregon, less rain, mountains 1/2 hr. away, large open
> spaces everywhere. I am very glad to be out of the San Francisco Bay
> Area. I am not unhappy to leave the traffic, the crowds, the frenetic
> pace. The people here move at a slower pace which I like. They seem
> kinder as a result.

I enjoyed hearing about your journey ... inner and outer.  You seem to
be on a major adventure with such a change of scene.  Both the places
you describe sound utterly romantic to me one for the book shops and
the buzz and the other for the outdoors and the mountains.  I have
both to some extent, I moved to Christchurch years ago ('66) because
it was bigger than Hobart where i had lived for a few years and
because it has mountains nearby.  The thing i have a lot of now is
routine ... and i love that ... though an occasional break from it,
regularly <g> is nice.

I recall Cheryl, our conversations about the process of Psyber-L ,
which is a passion of mine, and in a sense my posts about online
process are reports about me, they reveal something about me.  There
will be more of those for sure, though I feel that some of my interest
in the relationship of  structural stuff  to the soul brings us / me
into the Psyche and Eros realm that has been more fully named and
approached here of late & I feel fearful of it.   To talk about our
places and journeys & love & life  is what makes for warmth here and I
welcome it, I like it.  Your story and Stephen's *report* (he's using
his name here now!) brings out more of the urge in me to simply
*report* ... & i will.

Liked hearing about your cat.  We have two.  One is orange and the
other is grey.  Thy have names but my son and Kale's daughter could
not agree on the names so orange cat & grey cat they are ... though
the grey one gets called Scaredy Cat and the orange one the Male
Chauvinist Pig as well.  At the moment Scaredy Cat is getting very
thin ... and i am a bit worried, and have been giving her some extra
feeding attention, but it might mean a trip to the vet soon.  While
I'm on the subject then, we also have a dog Eli he is about three and
a big loving enthusiastic loveable black labrador crossed with
something thinner and taller, I have almost forgiven him for eating my
Birkenstocks and the edge of the family heirloom carper and ... much
more.  Our other dog Humphrey died about three months ago, his grave
is in the back yard, he's pushing up pansies.

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:04:46 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      What to say?
In-Reply-To:  <3624D20A.5EB4@sk.sympatico.ca>
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Robert,

In   Re: What's Happening???  Wed, 14 Oct 1998 10:32:10 -0600 you
wrote:

> Perhaps it is more a matter of "What to say?"

As in "What can we say after all this?"

Or  "What the hell is all this about anyway?"

Or ?

I have a sense  bring your story and your self here but that there are
difficulties with that for you (as there are for me) ... I have a
sense that this place looks very dark to you when it is when it is
silent, and that you experience silence easily.

My conjectures here and these very questions to me are what there is
to focus on ...

Watching the tide come in and out.

Whose tide where?

The metaphors for cyberspace ... and the psyche ... not only talked
*about* but applied to the here and now to us here ...

I have a new definition of cyberspace I would like some feed back on:

Where we meet with spontaneity the conserved or mediated expression of
others.

I could expand on it & it uses the terms of Moreno, which may not be
familiar in their somewhat specialised sense.  How does it look just
like that?

~~~

There just seems so much to say and so much to do that i don't know
where to start.

~~~

One thing I'd love to hear more about is the *process* and the
*experience* of being in JUNG & other places ... yet I can see *all*
the difficulties of discussion of one forum in another ... but the
dilemma of that ... now that is a topic!

~~~

And t hen what about all the discussions in Psyber-L that are
incomplete!  (They are never complete)  can they be revived or are the
Archives dead?  I hate the word archives.  That word makes it sound
like they are dead, but we always relate to conserved mediated
material here ... what has time got to do with it?  Plenty!

~~~

I am here in my counselling room looking out the window, across the
road the rhododendron is in full blazing purple bloom.  I have a vase
of pale pink camellias on the window sill.  The Disneyland Tram goes
by.  My next client is late ... as i thought ... teenager ... my last
ones were struggling with "What to say?" hiding being more familiar.

~~~

Robert, you had such commitment to *being* here ... that seems to have
drifted ... that is ok, I mean I don't juge it, though i wish it was
not like that ... and you are *saying that* which is utterly to *be*
here, I appreciate that.


Walter











__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 05:50:32 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Is this mine, all mine, or others?
In-Reply-To:  <v01550101b24a4610faad@[207.54.160.60]>
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Judith

I resonate with this and you have put this note about identification
and projection so clearly ...

> I think
> there is a greater aspect to this and that is when one feels enormous
> sadness for example it is one's own sadness but it resonnates and is
> amplified by the collective...or if everyone around you is sad this is
> amplified...I have a good friend who has huge emotions and she is learning
> that she is actually channeling the collective...now this might sound goofy
> but this happens in cyberspace too...just offering this as my own
> experience of learning what is me and what is not me...so now when I am
> feeling something I always pause and ask: is this mine, all mine, or
> *other(s)*...then there is the whole other framing of chords and
> chakras...I had a huge need to know what I didn't see and how that might
> work...anyway I hear an aspect of differenciation in your revelation from
> my point of view...a skill issue masked by a psychological framing

I may have written here about an experience the evening after running
a workshop, where i suddenly developed nausea and a severe headache
... I felt like i was going mad at the same time ... it was more than
physical pain. The  co-leader was with me and I realised I had taken
on specific aspects of group members, including the headache from
someone who had a headache.  The scary thing was that I felt as if I
had the choice of exploring *her* headache more ... channeling in
other words.  I felt i did not have the right to go there, nor did I
really want to ... with the guidance of my co-leader I pushed away
what was not mine, and pulled in what was ... the sensation was that
the foreign being dense and dissolving into space and my own being
coming in from having been vapourised in space.  I went through this
process for every member of the group, and each time had a strong
sense of relief as *my* feelings came home.  There was a sadness
reluctance to let go what i had absorbed ... as if it would have given
me powers or insights ... I could have looked, but instead I let go .

Judith I am not sure what you are referring to with chords and
chakras, but at the start of that workshop we made sounds to resonate
with each chakra to open them up.  I think we were entering into
territory we did not know enough about.

What do you mean by "a skill issue masked by a psychological framing"?

I am sure that you are right that it can happen in cyberspace ... I
would like to explore that more.


Walter







__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:15:27 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      == Proposed Changes to Psyber-L Design. ==
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All,


For many reasons, I am entertaining the idea that Psyber-L has
closed archives. A corollary of that is that it would have
subscription by owner.  The List's Description and the Welcome file
would need to change.

A better warm-up to Psyber-L might have prevented some of the
difficulties ... I say that with the following idea for some changes
in the subscription process, which I have mentioned here recently
but will spell out more fully, please think about this and let me
have your comments here or off list.

~~~

== Subscription by Owner and Private Archives ==

== Subscription ==

A new person subs to Psyber-L

They get an automated email with a fuller description of the
Charter.  They are requested to read it and send comments to the
Host / Listowner and also to introduce themselves and their interest
in Psyber-L.

This may or may not lead to some dialogue before the person is added
to the list, at that point the Host / Listowner also introduces the
person to Psyber-L and the new person is invited to say more about
themselves and their interests.

== Archives ==

The archives available only to those on the list.

~~~

This process is not aimed at keeping people out but rather at
education and offering a better opportunity for self selection and
creating a climate or warm-up to ... experientially exploring the
psyche in cyberspace.

This radically changes the "place" of this list and it would tie in
well with the development of another, open,  Psybernet list with a
focus on information. More on that later. I know that others have
proposed similar changes in the past, and I have defended the way
the list was.  I  wanted this to be an open list ... as a sort
of front door to Psybernet ... I now think it needs a different sort
of front door, and that Psyber-L needs a different door altogether, one
that is more appropriate to the purpose of the list.


Note:  I envisage days or weeks before any changes take place,
and they will be clearly announced here.  I will also post new
versions of the Description ... a yet to be written Invitation /
Charter?  ... and Welcome file, and invite discussion here or off
list.

These questions of list design and how they relate to the
psychological dynamics are central to the purpose of this list, and
I hope we can have some good discussion on them.  I have been
gathering links to many resources on these matters.  There is plenty
of material on Hosting:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/list_resources.htm

The task for us I think is to relate the collective wisdom gathered
on Hosting to our specific focus of depth psychology and to relate
that to the specific here and now of Psyber-L.


Walter





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:27:19 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      List numbers
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Nancy

> N: I too wondered and found the command.  Thirty-five is
> down from the 45 or 50 when I joined.  I'm wondering
> how much the fluctuation has been in the past?

Here is my subjective understanding:

From 93 to 94 while on the BBS, about  8 to 12

Then when we first went onto the internet about 60.

That built up to a peak of 150 by 96 or so.

Then I introduced the "renew" thing (that has troubled Susan) and we went
down to 60 and it has been around that figure with a gradual decline.

I have not promoted the list in any way.  When I do even a very small
amount of that there is a often an influx and I have not wanted that.

As you will see from in the other post there are changes afoot, and I look
forward to the time when those changes are made and tested a little and
Psyber-L is more widely announced.


Walter







__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:51:08 -0700
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From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      An experiement
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Walter,

Glad to hear you are an animal person. I definitely want a dog - and maybe
some birds. That'll come when I buy a house.

I see that projection has come up as a topic. I would like to suggest an
experiment for the group's consideration and discussion as a way of looking at
projection. It's quite straightforward and is not new. It is "What you see is what
you are."  There are of course far reaching psychological and philosophical
underpinnings in this  statement. I'm curious as to how people will respond
and think this could be a useful tool for looking at relating. For one entire day
or even a week consider that everything you say, think or feel about another
person is simply you. That what you see, think, feel, hear, etc. is "framed"
completely by who you are and that in fact you cannot perceive, "pick up on",
sense, anything that is not you.

I only want to advocate this as an experiment or a topic of discussion, mainly
because I'm interested in how others will respond. It is sort of the ultimate
"own your projection" by treating everything as a projection.

Another topic:

Walter, this is a process observation concerning the internet and the psyche.
Although these events came together somewhat of their own accord my own
intentions were at play no doubt.

My computer has been down for basically a year. When I decided to make the
move to Oregon early this summer I began looking around for someone to
drive my car here while I drove the moving van. As it tunred out a friend's
husband who owns a house in this town volunteered to drive the car so he
could use the opportunity to be here and look at his property and visit with his
tenants. During our several planning visits for this little adventure, I mentioned
I might need to buy another computer. Being the scientific, "I love a challenge"
type, he asked if I would give the computer to him for awhile to take a look at it
and, lo and behold, he was able to diagnose it correctly and fix it. The
coinciding of this with my move meant that one of the first things that I was
able to do when I got here was to hook up again with this list, exactly  at time
when I needed to stay connected with people from everywhere (since I know so
few people here).

>From a process (and of course perosnal) point of view, this is interesting to
me. The net is a means of connecting and a move like this "reconfigures"
one's connections. I think the immediate 'move' (pun intended) to rejoin this
list right now is like wanting a "transitional object"  - kind of like "I want my
blankey (as in "blanket')." This does not seem at all subtle to me - kind of right
out there.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:11:48 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What to say?
In-Reply-To:  <36265e02.23458257@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
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On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:04:46 GMT, you, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>,
wrote:

>I have a new definition of cyberspace I would like some feed back on:
>
>Where we meet with spontaneity the conserved or mediated expression of
>others.

That seems lopsided to me.  We are the met as well as the meeter.

>And t hen what about all the discussions in Psyber-L that are
>incomplete!  (They are never complete)  can they be revived or are the
>Archives dead?  I hate the word archives.  That word makes it sound
>like they are dead, but we always relate to conserved mediated
>material here ... what has time got to do with it?  Plenty!

I just recently joined a quack watch email list, and one of the participants
bellowed at me to "read the archives" when I expressed an opinion.

She said it as if the archives would change me, force me with their weight of
opinion (which in any case was hardly monolithic!) to her point of view.  Her
use of the word suggested a room filled with dusty tomes, an entire bookshelf or
a series of them, falling on me like dominoes, pressing me to the floor.  Rather
a violent image I got from her all in that one message, but then she did
characterize herself as screaming at the top of her lungs.

The archives didn't have any such effect, of course, but I realized that for
her, simple precedent or repeated claims mean validation; exactly the kind of
thinking that the quack watch list is trying to avoid, and what bothered me
about her in the first place.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:11:48 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: An experiement
In-Reply-To:  <3625FDCC.1967@coinet.com>
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On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 06:51:08 -0700, you, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>,
wrote:

>I see that projection has come up as a topic. I would like to suggest an
>experiment for the group's consideration and discussion as a way of looking at
>projection. It's quite straightforward and is not new. It is "What you see is what
>you are."  There are of course far reaching psychological and philosophical
>underpinnings in this  statement. I'm curious as to how people will respond
>and think this could be a useful tool for looking at relating. For one entire day
>or even a week consider that everything you say, think or feel about another
>person is simply you. That what you see, think, feel, hear, etc. is "framed"
>completely by who you are and that in fact you cannot perceive, "pick up on",
>sense, anything that is not you.

That's an interesting experiment.  I like the way you put it.  In other contexts
it's been "you're not really seeing me, you're seeing your own inadequacies and
faults," with a subtext of "I'm blameless," which is a rather aggressive way of
describing projection.

Repeating the idea to myself:  to see something, it must be something we are, to
some degree, or we will not see it as it is.  Our map will only include things
that we know about.  If we don't understand something we paint something else
over it.  Hence attributions of wildly differing emotions or beliefs onto
others, because the real ones are not comprehensible.

>I only want to advocate this as an experiment or a topic of discussion, mainly
>because I'm interested in how others will respond. It is sort of the ultimate
>"own your projection" by treating everything as a projection.

Voluntary, non-confrontational.  I think I'll try it.

(starting in a small way) I guess I could see myself making the same kind of
suggestion, and interpreted it as if I had said it, with an emphasis on not
placing any blame, and emphasis on voluntary.

Going to an "internal customer" at work, telling him that I really am still
working on a project that I was in their office working on last week, even
though they don't see me there this week, because I can see the files I need
over the network.  Because I expected them to wonder if I was really doing
anything.  And to care!  Because he didn't seem worried about it, as if it
didn't matter.

I'm thinking, does he not care?  Thinking, is he so busy it doesn't matter that
time is going by and the project is not finished yet?  Thinking, this will save
them lots of time, why is he not happy when he sees me.  He looks like he really
doesn't care.  Maybe hostile to me because I'm slow completing this project?

Now to how that relates to me.  When things take a long time, I usually don't
complain but I will feel put out or ignored.  When someone gives me a status
report I usually reply in a positive encouraging way, and I didn't get it from
him, so I thought he was hostile.  But he's usually not that way, when I think
about it, so maybe it means something different.

I actually spent some time trying to make him smile, and I was successful
eventually, when I said, I realize that maybe you guys are wondering where the
mysterious JoAnne is.  He smiled at that.  But why did he smile?  Me coming in
that tense sort of office and smiling and being laid-back is probably weird to
him, and me being there might be just as mysterious as when I'm missing.
Probably MORE SO.

This is fun.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:41:48 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: I love this List
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Nancy,

I love this list as well.  When I came here there were just a few
people.  Stephen was playing a glass-bead game with Charles.  Soon, the
participation of others began to grow with the coming of Wilbur, Anita,
and others.  That was a good time for me.  Then came the testing of this
space with stories of cyber-relationships and with the formation of more
than one off-list one-to-one dialogues.  Following this came the
DreamGroup experience which I will treasure for the rest of my life.
Along with the dreamgroup came a period of not-quite silence on this
list, a sensation that met with some anger at being abandonned by many
of the regulars who often filled this space with words.

During the game, I bolted from cyberspace completely (heralding that I
was heading into dangerous times).  It took a bit of time before I had
the courage to try to re-enter this place as I was filled with shame.
So I returned and heard the words of Void and felt out of place.
Following the confrontation with *void* came a lull before the cow
battles and the Julienne/Joanne altercations shifted from some other
cyber-place to this space.  It was hard to sit here through this, harder
as I was finding that I was on the decline in my f2f place as well.
Burnout took me from work, from home, and from active participation
here.

All during this time, I found the ebb and flow of vocal presence
seemingly matching my participation.  And, this made me feel
uncomfortable.  Synchronicity?  Does my silence affect this place?  Does
the silence of this place affect me?

And, yet, I still find a thin thread that makes me keep checking, keep
connected with this place.

> Thank you, Robert, for your kind words.  But then you ARE a kind man.
> I have no intention of leaving here.

Thank you, Nancy.  I hope to continue staying here though it does get
hard at times.  Like you, I love this list.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:45:50 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???

On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:01:27 -0400, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:

>Nancy and JoAnne if I may
>
>
>>On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:32:14 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 13 Oct 1998 13:24:50 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:
>>>
>>>>  I hesitate to mention this in response to your busy, happy post, but
>>>>I've been stuggling with the sad feelings which seem to begin about mid
>>>>August every year.  All hurtful things seem 'personal'.  I mentioned that
>>>>the list had attempted to inhibit responses to Julienne so that her
>>>>evening posts would hang...isolated, seemingly shunned.
>>>
>>>I think that was just no one wanting to play that particular game again.  At
>>>least that's what I was feeling, can't speak for anyone else.
>
>JoAnne and Nancy- I was feeling tired of the bait and switch and came to
>the conclusion that tho it may have been unconscious, it was what it was
>and I didn't sense any need to shift on her part...Was it you, Nancy, who
>said something about thinking we all want to heal and change...my work in
>personal development has not born this out...I did continue to read the
>posts tho to see if there was any porousness to seep into...I never felt
>invited to enter into conversation and when I tested it by askin a direct
>question there was silence...I noticed a pattern of selectivity around
>Julienne's responses and mine definitely were de-selected...I didn't take
>it personally but then I wasn't in the direct line of fire...
>>>
>>N: So, if I'm understanding you, you are saying that on
>>many evenings Julienne's 3 plus messages would hang in
>>space unanswered simply because noone wanted to bother?
>>  And yet there was no thought of what message that would
>>convey to her?  I'm really interested in this as it
>>represents sort of a life long puzzlement for me.  I've
>>always 'read people', read all sorts of things into what
>>they said and perhaps even more what it seemed to me they
>>'would have said' but didn't.  I've never had much of
>>any forum in which to reality check much of this. This
>>has meant that there is a point beyond which I can't
>>become a consensual person, can't withdraw my projections
>>because it isn't possible to clearly which are
>>projections and which accurate...if...picky? too accute...
>>perceptions.
>>  I'm not sure if this is an interest of yours, JoAnn.
>>If not, I will respect that (typally probably).  But
>>perhaps others?
>
>Nancy I relate to your revelation here and I think there is a very
>important aspect which goes beyond or is different from projection...it has
>to do with differenciation...the ability to sense things from other things
>including feelings, thots, emotions etc...this has been a lifelong teacher
>for me...when I finally understood what an empath was meaning in one aspect
>the ability to feel what other's feel, this made my youth make sense...in
>the beginning I thot all feelings were mine and my self organizing process
>made me feel crazy as it would try to align all the emotions...later I
>found out that I was taking all of the energy in a room into me...I think
>there is a greater aspect to this and that is when one feels enormous
>sadness for example it is one's own sadness but it resonnates and is
>amplified by the collective...or if everyone around you is sad this is
>amplified...I have a good friend who has huge emotions and she is learning
>that she is actually channeling the collective...now this might sound goofy
>but this happens in cyberspace too...just offering this as my own
>experience of learning what is me and what is not me...so now when I am
>feeling something I always pause and ask: is this mine, all mine, or
>*other(s)*...then there is the whole other framing of chords and
>chakras...I had a huge need to know what I didn't see and how that might
>work...anyway I hear an aspect of differenciation in your revelation from
>my point of view...a skill issue masked by a psychological framing
>>
N: I most especially want to answer this message of your, Judith.  Yet
now as I try I'm having some trouble just where to 'break in' and make
the distinctions I feel clear.
  First off, somewhere you ask if something you say sounds 'goofy'.
The day you sound goofy, Judith, is the day I call the FBI to see
who stole your computer.
  I both do and don't understand the distrinctions that I think you are trying to
make.  I am pretty comfortable (at least in my head) with there being
both 'good' and 'bad' projections (Healthy and unhealthy?)  It is
plausable for me to regard the 'feeling into' another in order to
understand where they are coming from as a healthy projection.  The
problem I have at this time of year is that I can't seem to keep good
contact with my own Center.  (Was this the locus {am I remembering the
word right?] which some mentioned Julienne lacked?)  To much of the
time I feel out of sync with the world and it does seem to happen
every year during the same months.
  You, Judith, and others have mentioned channelling.  I understand
that to mean what the Shaman used to do for the tribe.  I do have some
familiarity with this.  I have had 'collective' dreams (so dubbed by
several analysts.  I am often sensitive to the ambience in rooms and
 groups.  Since often I move in more Collective Circles it is not
always possible to varify these preceptions.  Yet the word 'empath'
hasn't quite done it for me.  I am not always 'empathetic' with others.
Sometimes they feel it and complain.  Then what am I to think?  Well,
much of the year I tend to believe, "Darn.  That's too bad.  It would
be so nice to be more with people interested in these fine distinctions."
Or, "I know something was there I was sensing.  I either aren't
expressing it quite right or they are in denial."  Now that is where
things get tricky.  And at this time of year things get horrid.  Because
I can't be sure of my own perceptions to that extent.

>>>Nancy, I'm sorry that you felt ignored.  You don't sound pathetic to me.
>>>I have
>>>been in your shoes, wondering who's out there, why they don't say
>>>anything, yet
>>>I too am guilty of being silent.  It's uncomfortable to admit that just
>>>as it is
>>>uncomfortable for you to describe your feelings in this instance.
>>>
>>N: Well, yes.  I did and it's not fun.  But I'm fairly
>>used to dealing with that.  (Aren't we all?  Or to echo
>>Stephen, are we?  Perhaps not.)  The thing was I feared
>>I was responsible.  That in the group's eyes I had somehow
>>transgressed.  (I don't particularly get that sense from
>>the flow that's occurred today.)
>J: Wow, nancy, I was feeling you were holding and creating a safe space to
>play...I was there with my training wheels on enjoying JoAnne's playfulness
>and always yours...the transgression as far as I was concerned was
>Julienne's...I'm not sure how your logic brought you to that
>conclusion...tho later here you explain...
>
N: Now here I suspect some divergence occurred in the meeting of our
minds (as it did innitially when I was answering JoAnn.  I was three
sentences into my reply when I realize...'I bet that isn't what she
meant at all.  Erased and began again.)
  Sometime last August (just before the List fell at least intermittantly
silent) JoAnn said something about (to?) Julienne about 'reasonableness'
and or the lack there of.  At the time I thought, "Dang.  That's it.
That's what gets under my and her (JoJo's) skin so.  There's just no
way of reasoning with the woman.  I wanted to say it then, but was in
a place where I didn't feel I could be as present as I like to be here
and so let it pass.  I think you may have taken what I said to refer
to my feeling I hadn't done my best with Julienne when I was refering
to ... ummm...possibly a guilt I felt for having sort of dropped out
for a month or more and wondering if the List leaving my returning
messages 'hanging' there unanswered said something like, "Well, if she
thinks she can just pick us up and put us down like forgotten toys,
why the hell should we bother with her?"
  Ok?  Hope I've clarified that.  (Possibly far more than anyone gives
a...)

  Now this eternal optimism I seem to carry that everyone seeks to know
themselves.  Certainly I 'know' there are people who don't want to see
my viewpoint.  (Shoot sometimes I'm one of 'them')  Yet I am terrible
impressed by something Harry Stack Sullivan say (which I must paraphrase,
for as usual I can't put my hands on my copy.)  It went something like
this (and he was talking about patients) 'As soon as a person gets a
glimmer that 'he' can understand and overcome some difficulty that has
troubled him all his life, 'he' becomes terribly interested in pursuing
it.'  There still seems to be some indominable part of my soul which
believes this.
  Now lets look at the (three) people I mentioned.  My mother was a
consciencious wife and mother.  She was a 'good Christian'.  None of
us could ever seem to reach her on any point of disagreement at all, as
far as I can remember.  My Father in his autobiography termed it a 'will
to be right.'  (More or less.)  My husband showed no interest in divorce,
yet he also didn't seem interested in any ongoing effort to work at our
understanding one another's viewpoint.  Julienne stayed on the List.
Didn't this imply somehow that she had some wish to relate to the rest
of us?
  All this still sounds so iminently plausable.  How the hell can it
turn out to be so danged wrong?
  I once heard a Jungian Analyst say that the problem isn't that 'we
don't have the insights to impart.  There are acres of them stacked in
mile high caves under Ohio.  The problem is we just haven't found a
mechanism for delivering them.'
  I guess that sort of says it all.  (Though I do believe that future
generations will discover new insights we do not yet dream of.)

  Well, thanks, 'guys' for letting me have my say.  It helped me if not
you.

  Love, Nancy
  (I know there's a way to cut the quotes a little but I just don't know
where to start this time.  May the Great Archives forgive me.)




>Judith gaining insight here
>
>>  The one thing I forgot to include in what I'd hoped
>>way my summing up about Julienne, was that I think she
>>may have particularly bothered you and me for the same
>>reason...that is a lack of reason.  To use the ancient
>>Greek device, that was my mother's place in our family
>>The Unreasonable One...or perhaps The Unreasoning One.
>>I kept having the reaction: 'This can't be.' 'Nobody
>>would willfully be like this.' 'It must be some sort
>>of subtle cry for help.''Surely if we can get her
>>to understand, she'll change and be so happy to have
>>found the answer.'
>>  It sounds sort of silly now I've spelled it out.
>>I guess much of the trouble I had with my ex-husband was
>>based on a similar sort of illusory assumption.  I still
>>don't really understand either of those two people (three
>>counting Julienne, except maybe in my head, in psychiatric
>>terms, but at least now I can sort of smile
>>at my part in the transaction.
>>  Thanks, JoJo.  You've just reillustrated for me why I
>>like your sort of T.  You stay related and yet manage
>>to blow some of the 'fuzz' away.
>>
>>>Walter, how many people are on the list now?  However many it is, when no one
>>>responds, it feels cold.
>>>
>>N: I too wondered and found the command.  Thirty-five is
>>down from the 45 or 50 when I joined.  I'm wondering
>>how much the fluctuation has been in the past?
>>
>>  Nancy
>>  Feeling a little more at home, 'here' at least.
>>>
>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:51:40 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: == Proposed Changes to Psyber-L Design. ==

As usual you sorta lose me on this stuff, Walter.  And as usual I'm
for as few restrictions as possible.
  Glad you at least understand it since you pay the rent.

  Nancy

P.S. I do hope you aren't proposing to close the Archives so usems can't
get to them.   I sometimes wish I could access the ones that go back
before the present ones.

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:59:47 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: I love this List

And thank you again, Robert, for sharing your summary.  It makes me
feel more in touch with what went before.
  I must say I do wonder about the 'cow wars'.  That's almost as
provocative as JoAnn's 'animals in the furniture.'!
  Let us try to detach ourselves from 'shame'.  I'll try if you will.

  Warmly,  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:40:11 -0700
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Animals in the Furniture
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Nancy -

we haven't met yet - cyber-ly speaking...

I was puzzled that you thought 'animals in the furniture' was provocative.

Can you say more?

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:34:34 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: What's Happening???

On Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:16:54 EDT, Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM> wrote:


>Nancy, I hope I'm not jumping into a dialogue between you and Jo Ann here!

N: Not in the least, now or ever.  The only exception to this was
Julienne who sometimes didn't seem to want to communicate, but simply
'stir things up.'

>But, I wanted to comment on a perception (projection?) I had about the
>interactions between Julienne and other women on Psyber-L.  And, I admit that
>my sense of the history of it all was limited!
>
>But, here goes :)  My sense of Julienne was that she had little internal locus
>of control.  To me, it is almost impossible to communicate with someone in
>that state...

N:  I understood that to be the same as what the Jungians call 'in a
complex' or 'possessed'.  The odd thing to me is that she didn't come
ever seem to come out of it and reflect.  Maybe saying something like
"...Oh, but maybe that isn't quite what you meant.  Maybe you meant..."
It was like a war where one just hates the 'enemy' and keeps dropping
bombs on whole cities of innocent people who have nothing to do with
'running' the war.
  I got terribly tickled by Anita's post asking, 'But how can a woman
function without an animus?'  I just had to take it terribly 'tongue
in cheek' because it seemed so clear that Julienne was in a constant
state of 'Animus Possession'.  I guess I remembered being so much more
that way myself (more than now, not more than Julienne.) That I just
wanted so badly to somehow help her find herSelf.
  There has been a red-headed columnist on the Geraldo Rivera show
during the Clinton problems who strikes me just like that.  She
doesn't seem to hear or for a moment entertain on single word anyone
else says.  And it seems to me that she willfully distorts any and all
facts which might support any view but her own with the bat of an eye
lash.  All this in a sort of penitrating nasal whine.  I cussed back
at my TV set until it's a wonder the tube hasn't shattered.  I really
believe he has her on so often because she is the most irritating
representation of the view not his own that he could find!

> he/she is too busy trying to convince me of something.  I
>personally disliked a kind of representation I felt she made of *WOMAN*, and
>that only she could represent our downtrodden gender (sarcasm intended).
>Those were the triggers I felt from her, which may have been projection.
>Nancy, Anita, Jo Anne, did you pick up any of this?

N: Yes.  Sort of.  But my focus was mainly elsewhere,  I felt a little
identification with her over Anita's statements that the victim provokes
the attack.  It isn't all wrong, but for me watching my family to a
degree 'go down the tube' (or sometimes it has seemed.) And feeling
much of it was due to a brutality, both physical and emotional, which
I could neither understand nor really stop, made me understand some of
what I thought to be her defensiveness.

>A thing I got to do in my time away from Psyber-L was to see the Dalai Lama
>(not personally, but at my school.)  Frankly, most of the time I could not
>understand him (poor sound and his accent), but one point he made stuck.
>Someone in the audience asked him what he thought of strident, fundamental
>religious folks who aggressively evangelize and try to convert others.  His
>response was that (my paraphrasing) because these folks were not convinced of
>God, or spirit in themselves, it was necessary for them to convince others.
>So, if they could convince others to believe, they were justified.

N: Yes.  I've heard that view.  It may well be so.  It makes sense to
my head okay.  Yet somehow it just doesn't further the deep unified
understanding I seem to crave.  (Still trying to redeem my mother, I
guess.)
>
>That's similar to what seemed to me to be going on.
>
>But then, I could be wrong :)
>
>Sheryl
>
N: You won't hear it from me, Sheryl.  I'm delighted you cared enough
to share your perceptions.  I guess I'd sum it by saying that each
of our Psyche's are 'thin' (where the nerves are exposed) in slightly
different places.
  Now I see why I had the S/C trouble yesterday.  There are two of you,
but you don't have a cat named Cleo who hides under the bathroom sink.
I wonder if there's room for me...No. I'll have to find another
solution.

  Nancy

>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 10:47:57 -0700
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Process
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Walter,

Perhaps this is old territory for you, I don't know. What say you re:

Don't you think that we are limited in this cyber(net) adventure by what can be
communicated in the written word? How well we understand each other
depends on both the skill of the writer and and the skill of the reader... I seem
to remember thinking about this when I first got onto the list.

I know that during the last two years I have been online, I have been able to
understand some people better than others because their written style
commuicated to me more easily or was more familiar... That is true 1to1 also
but less so I think because we have so many more nonverbal cues, including
sound. Reduced further...the effect of the interent on the psyche may become
equivalent to the effect of the written word - the letters culture, if you will... only
speeded up.

Just thinking...looking for something to muse on.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:52:46 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Stephen and music

Hi, Guy.  I just wanted to tell you that you are one of the important
people to me here.  I'm glad you are slso 'busy and happy'.
   I wish I could meet you an 'your own ground' more than I can.  I
so unmusical I don't yet own a single CD.  Yet that is all Amazon offers.
It's on my 'to do' list to buy a Sony Discman with the car package.  Is
this a good idea?  My (then) son-in-law helped me buy my stereo set.
I really wanted one of the small thingies, but he called them 'ghetto
blasters' and I was too embarrassed in my ignorance to formulate my
wishes and make them clear to him.
  Then I need to find some CDs good for exercise dance.  So far I like
The Sweep song about the roof tops of London, England Swings and These
Boots are Made for Walking.  (All of which I have.)  Occassionally my
audio on my computer works.  So far I haven't sampled anything at
Amazon that quite works for me.
  Boy, this sure seems to be the week for me to trot out my inadequacies!

  Best to you,
  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:18:40 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Short Short Story

Simon, are you 'out there'?

  I'm writing this sss and you're just the man to help me if you will.
  It's entirely in dialogue between two animus figures in a woman about
a third newly arrive.  Since there is no narrative I have to make who's
speaking immediately clear so one is a sort of Henry Higgins Englishman
and the other a sort of back woods American.

  Someone has called one line into question.  I'll quote two (both Henry
Higgens)

  "Why are you mumbling, Old Man?  You don't suppose that will come as
 any surprise to Her, do you?"  (so I'm cool with that...a little
supercileous is what I wanted.  Now...same speaker...)

   "A haiku?  Which one?  Not the...  Try to remember, Man!"

   I'm wanting to denote a little startly, a little urgency, a little
alarm.  It sounds ok to me, but my critic says 'Man' suggests American
dialect.  How about it Simon?  Is there a better way?

  I also need the plural for Animus.  I'm guessing it's Animus...Three
Achetypes and a Clock or something more specific for the title.  By the
way a 'clock' is the head of a dandelion that has gone to seed.  Neat,
huh?  (Oh, the latin question is for anyone who might know.)

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 15:07:24 -0500
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Nancy and music
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101513530393@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>I am so unmusical I don't yet own a single CD.

Nancy,

Here's how unmusical you are:

                        *you are the product of music*.

***

more later,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:23:48 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Short Short Story
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101514184114@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:18:40 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:

>  I also need the plural for Animus.  I'm guessing it's Animus...

Animosity?  Anonymous?

>Three
>Achetypes and a Clock or something more specific for the title.  By the
>way a 'clock' is the head of a dandelion that has gone to seed.  Neat,
>huh?  (Oh, the latin question is for anyone who might know.)

How about those of us who don't know?  Like me.

-JoJo

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:50:09 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Short Short Story

On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:23:48 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:18:40 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:
>
>>  I also need the plural for Animus.  I'm guessing it's Animus...

N:  Gee.  Did I do that?  So much for keeping the monitor four ft away
and stalling about getting my new glasses.  I meant 'animi'.
>
>Animosity?  Anonymous?
>
>>Three
>>Achetypes and a Clock or something more specific for the title.  By the
>>way a 'clock' is the head of a dandelion that has gone to seed.  Neat,
>>huh?  (Oh, the latin question is for anyone who might know.)
>
>How about those of us who don't know?  Like me.
>
>-JoJo

N: Give me a little credit, Sweet Jo.  I haven't found anyone yet who
does know.  I just explained it here because you'all don't have the
whole story.  'Henry 'Iggins' as Lisa might say explains it very
didactically about half way through (JUst after I discovered it!)  The
whole story is less than 500 words and it seems to be a sort of literary
convention to take a significant word out of the body and use it in
the title.  (Anybody who wants, disagee.  I'm still a learner.)
  It also has a rather neat (I think) double meaning.  The animi (?)
in a woman seem to be multiple (as appear in dreams) and they change
as a woman ages and (hopefully) grows.  So as the clock turns the animi (?)
transform and/or new figures with new characteristic appear.  Again,
I'm always happy to hear from anyone with different insights into this
stuff from mine.

  Nancy
  Who will soon be off to art group, and hence not nattering away as
she's been doing all day.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 00:23:47 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Short Short Story
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101516501521@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:50:09 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:

>On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 19:23:48 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 15 Oct 1998 14:18:40 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, wrote:
>>
>>>  I also need the plural for Animus.  I'm guessing it's Animus...
>
>N:  Gee.  Did I do that?  So much for keeping the monitor four ft away
>and stalling about getting my new glasses.  I meant 'animi'.
>>
>>Animosity?  Anonymous?
>>
>>>Three
>>>Achetypes and a Clock or something more specific for the title.  By the
>>>way a 'clock' is the head of a dandelion that has gone to seed.  Neat,
>>>huh?  (Oh, the latin question is for anyone who might know.)
>>
>>How about those of us who don't know?  Like me.
>>
>>-JoJo
>
>N: Give me a little credit, Sweet Jo.  I haven't found anyone yet who
>does know.

Oops, sorry if I sounded rude.  I didn't mean to.

>I just explained it here because you'all don't have the
>whole story.  'Henry 'Iggins' as Lisa might say explains it very
>didactically about half way through (JUst after I discovered it!)  The
>whole story is less than 500 words and it seems to be a sort of literary
>convention to take a significant word out of the body and use it in
>the title.  (Anybody who wants, disagee.  I'm still a learner.)
>  It also has a rather neat (I think) double meaning.  The animi (?)
>in a woman seem to be multiple (as appear in dreams) and they change
>as a woman ages and (hopefully) grows.  So as the clock turns the animi (?)
>transform and/or new figures with new characteristic appear.  Again,
>I'm always happy to hear from anyone with different insights into this
>stuff from mine.

I like that clock/animus and of course the old ones blow away like the dandelion
bits.  And Dandelion is dent de lion, lion's tooth, from the jagged looking
leaves of the plant.  And it has a deep deep root.

>  Nancy
>  Who will soon be off to art group, and hence not nattering away as
>she's been doing all day.

I bought some paints last weekend.  Paper a few weeks before.  Maybe I'll get
them out this week.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:20:14 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: == Proposed Changes to Psyber-L Design. ==
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101512515135@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Nancy, all,

>  And as usual I'm  for as few restrictions as possible.

I think of the proposed developments as design and crafting.  I
am making as beautiful a violin as I can,  an instrument to
delight the most discerning artist, even those who are *products
of music*. <grin>

The "restrictions" will be that if you blow in the holes it will
not sound like a flute.


> P.S. I do hope you aren't proposing to close the Archives so usems can't
> get to them.

Usems -- those who are on the list -- will have access to the
archives ie The Psyber-L Web Interface.  Those who are not
subscribed will not be able to see them.  That is the plan.

I hope that clarifies!

Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:37:58 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      The Psyber-L Web Interface and Archives
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101512515135@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Nancy,

In the following post:   Re: == Proposed Changes to Psyber-L
Design. ==   Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:51:40 -0400    you wrote:

> I sometimes wish I could access the ones that go back
> before the present ones.

There are records from before Psyber-L used the current Lsoft
Listserv (r).  They are available as files by email.  Here is how
you do it:

In a message write:

index Psyber-L

Send it to:

Listserv@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

You will then get an email with all the available files and
instructions as to how to get them.

~~~

Note that there are more available than that, and that i need to
put them up on the server ... it is hard to get around to unless
someone wants them ... I'd love to get them there for the sake of
completion, it is just not been a priority and i have them here,
in a bit of chaos.

Nancy, I'm glad you asked ... as we are exploring the psyche I
think the arch - ives matter.

(JoAnne, this is not to go against what you wrote in the other
post about archives at all!  That sounded like aggressive
behaviour involving inappropriate use of archives! )

The url in the sig below is to the Psyber-L  Web Interface.  When
you get there it is called the Archives ... I'd prefer the title
Web Interface but i don't think I can change it.  You can read
search and write a response there to even this post!  That is
more than an archive!


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:14:08 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Is this mine, all mine, or others?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, Just got back from a marathon rehersal which felt not unlike the
Batan Death March...by the time we got to my 7 page monologue in the second
act even the director was asleep...which certainly takes the pressure off
:-) I'll make a stab at replying here wanting to be timely in responding...

>Judith
>
>I resonate with this and you have put this note about identification
>and projection so clearly ...
>
>> I think
>> there is a greater aspect to this and that is when one feels enormous
>> sadness for example it is one's own sadness but it resonnates and is
>> amplified by the collective...or if everyone around you is sad this is
>> amplified...I have a good friend who has huge emotions and she is learning
>> that she is actually channeling the collective...now this might sound goofy
>> but this happens in cyberspace too...just offering this as my own
>> experience of learning what is me and what is not me...so now when I am
>> feeling something I always pause and ask: is this mine, all mine, or
>> *other(s)*...then there is the whole other framing of chords and
>> chakras...I had a huge need to know what I didn't see and how that might
>> work...anyway I hear an aspect of differenciation in your revelation from
>> my point of view...a skill issue masked by a psychological framing
>
W>I may have written here about an experience the evening after running
>a workshop, where i suddenly developed nausea and a severe headache
>... I felt like i was going mad at the same time ... it was more than
>physical pain. The  co-leader was with me and I realised I had taken
>on specific aspects of group members, including the headache from
>someone who had a headache.  The scary thing was that I felt as if I
>had the choice of exploring *her* headache more ... channeling in
>other words.  I felt i did not have the right to go there, nor did I
>really want to ... with the guidance of my co-leader I pushed away
>what was not mine, and pulled in what was ... the sensation was that
>the foreign being dense and dissolving into space and my own being
>coming in from having been vapourised in space.  I went through this
>process for every member of the group, and each time had a strong
>sense of relief as *my* feelings came home.  There was a sadness
>reluctance to let go what i had absorbed ... as if it would have given
>me powers or insights ... I could have looked, but instead I let go .
>
>Judith I am not sure what you are referring to with chords and
>chakras, but at the start of that workshop we made sounds to resonate
>with each chakra to open them up.  I think we were entering into
>territory we did not know enough about.
J: Exactly right Walter...playing with this is tricky and DEFINITELY
something not to be taken lightly...I remember the beginning of workshops
led by psychologists who were doing all that "look into each others eyes"
stuff...I nearly freaked...because I operate Shamanistically if I look into
someones eyes I'm getting information...psychologically I was berated
because I couldn't make eye contact...what they didn't understand was that
I didn't make eye contact when I speak because the data coming into my eyes
from the other person confuses me...sort of like talking and listening at
the same time...no problem when another person is talking...just an example
of psychologizing a phenomenon which is about other ways of knowing...
>
>What do you mean by "a skill issue masked by a psychological framing"?
I was speaking about the process of differenciation...which is about
information processing...being able to sense something from something
else...in my case it has been a question of being able to know what I'm
feeling...I feel it but don't have the words to put to the feeling...and
for a long time feeling was just feeling in a great big blob...it has to do
with how one's brain functions also...not clear about how that
is...however, maybe thinking about how one can senseknow the difference
between a projection onto someone else and what is not a projection...it is
about discernment not about the source of the projection or the why of
it...sort of a variation of the map is not the territory...thinking of it
another way, we have an optical process which discerns color and which can
differenciate one color from another...it's not a psychological aspect...I
have found that to the degree that one can differenciate is the degree to
which one can sense *self*...in a very real sense I think that part of
Julienne's issue was a lack of differenciation skill...she spoke of being
an empath which is not about empathy in one sense...it is about taking
energy into one's body which is then *read* which I think is what you were
speaking of when you said you didn't look at the headache...at the very
least taking energy into one's body can make one feel crazy *because* one
is assuming all that is going on inside is *mine*...I think this is a
critical cause of a lot of the depression and other *psychological*
illnesses...we all take in energy to some extent...my issue is with the
assumption that all is *me* in therapy when this is not the case, leading
to all sorts of treatments which are not the full picture...hypersensative
people all have this discernmentdifferenciation issue...she says in a
gigantic generalization
>I am sure that you are right that it can happen in cyberspace ... I
>would like to explore that more.
Too tired to continue here Walter
Judith back to her script

>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 05:37:53 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Short Short Story
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101514184114@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,


>    "A haiku?  Which one?  Not the...  Try to remember, Man!"
>
>    I'm wanting to denote a little startly, a little urgency, a little
> alarm.  It sounds ok to me, but my critic says 'Man' suggests American
> dialect.  How about it Simon?  Is there a better way?

Simon would know,  it sounds English to me (in NZ)

>   I also need the plural for Animus.  I'm guessing it's Animus...

The story sounds great and i love the idea of sss ~ micro stories.

Animi if you ask me.  Has a good ring to it! But what then is the plural of
Anima?  Whatever we call them I can hear them perking up inside, enjoying
the attention.

I think Dr Seus would know:


If your anima inside bumps a nearby  animi,
and the archetypal rumble stirs you up to say, my, my!
and the complexes compete, even if a little shy
then relax and watch the animas 'n' musses sort it out while you just sigh.

In your inner psycho jungle, the persona cuts a dash
and the Oedopoedals mumble that this know-it-all is trash
and your super egos had it  cause the Ids about to bash,
then your situations hopeless and your egos gonna crash.

more verses?


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 05:38:00 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Hello again
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a01b249dd25513c@[207.54.160.37]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Stephen,

  Wed, 14 Oct 1998 00:37:12 -0500   you wrote:

a wonderful little story!  I like it!   I liked listening to you report all
round ... can you say more about squareONE?



~~~ I quote the story  here in full, just for fun ~~~

***

A student, feeling advanced after much hard study under his master, hatched
a plan to both embarrass the master and perhaps bring some of the younger
students into a study group he hoped to form. (You see, he was convinced he
was to become a teacher.)

His plan was simple: he would capture a small bird and holding it captive
in his hand, would test the master. He captured the bird and approached the
master who was conducting class by a tree.

"If you are so wise, tell me if this bird in my hand is dead, or alive?"

(If the master guessed the bird was dead, he would open his hand and the
bird would escape; if the master guessed the  bird was alive, he would
quickly crush the bird and expose its lifeless form.)

The master looked at him. The student asked again, "Is this bird dead, or
alive?"

"My student, it is up to you."

***

~~~end quote~~~


Uplifting.



Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 07:57:08 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: == Proposed Changes to Psyber-L Design. ==

I guess it clarifies 'those' points.  I find I'm not
cortable but also not quite sure how to procede (less
fatalistically than yesterday).
  I guess what I'm a feeling is some sort of reveberation
from the Julienne thing.  Frustrating as she was to try to
deal with, now being excluded, she is now somehow the
'underdog' and hence the like feeling I have go out in
projective identification to her.
  I wonder if I am echoing anything that exists at some
level with others here?  If this could happen to Julienne,
could it somehow happen to me?  Would I then be excluded
(suddenly in a sense) from access to all 'my own' material?
To all the interchanges which 'now' (with a change of heart,
I project) I need to go back and try to understand what
happened?
  I'm not exactly agin it.  Perhaps I don't quite under-
stand how or why it would make this a better place.  Is
there a way so that anyone who had ever been a member or
became a member could have access to the old archives?  If
not, then like amnesia one would be sort of cut off from
parts of themselves.
  Does this make sense?

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:48:04 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: I love this List
In-Reply-To:  <362625CC.3F00@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Robert,

Nice synopsis.

> All during this time, I found the ebb and flow of vocal presence
> seemingly matching my participation.  And, this made me feel
> uncomfortable.  Synchronicity?  Does my silence affect this place?  Does
> the silence of this place affect me?

I have a feeling of discomfort at the impact of my participation or
non-participation.  I have it particularly as I have a sense that
the *design* of psyber-l is my doing and hence I have set us all up
for whatever is happening here!  If you recall in our "construction"
posts i put a strong emphasis on the influence of the construction
-- description etc.  I think it is true, I think the proposals I put
up will make a *big* difference.  I certainly want comment on them
so it is not all coming from me.

Cheryl's experiment would have it that all of everything is us
anyway, so everything here is you as much as me at least for the
duration of the experiment -- after that we will need to apply
Judith's discernment again -- figuring out what is mine & what is
other.


> And, yet, I still find a thin thread that makes me keep checking, keep
> connected with this place.

I hope the thread fattens up a little soon!

> > Thank you, Robert, for your kind words.  But then you ARE a kind man.
> > I have no intention of leaving here.
>
> Thank you, Nancy.  I hope to continue staying here though it does get
> hard at times.  Like you, I love this list.

I love it too!

Why else would I be up this late?

Damn.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:50:05 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: == Proposed Changes to Psyber-L Design. ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Nancy,

I am pleased you raise these matters.

Firstly it is not a good idea to change the structure or perameters
once the forum is established.  This makes common sense and it is
also stated in the useful guide by Howard Rheingold:
http://www.rheingold.com/texts/artonlinehost.html  ''The Art of
Hosting Good Conversations Online.''  On the other hand Psyber-L is
a
special case.  One of the purposes is to explore how this media
impacts on our psyche, and thus *discussion of the impact*  as we
are doing is *on topic* and not undermining the purpose of the list
as it would be in many other places.

Secondly I think there are many good reasons for changing this list
from a public one to a private one -- there may be some against it
too.  At the moment I think we would be much better of with some
more containment.  Assuming it is to happen, then there are many
options.  Close this list but keep the old archives public and start
a new list.  Or simply make it all private and make it clear that
past members could apply for the files from the time they wrote to
the list, or rejoin to look at them.  Another option is to make the
archives private from here on.

I feel committed to the archive's safe keeping and to hand them on
to a suitable person should the need arise.  There are no
guarantees.

> If this could happen to Julienne,
> could it somehow happen to me?  Would I then be excluded
> (suddenly in a sense) from access to all 'my own' material?

Technically yes ~ but practically I cant see that happening. That
you should feel the chill of this is natural and I have heard
similar feelings expressed after someone has been removed in other
forums.  I think it is good that we have this discussion in the open
... I also find I am uncomfortable talking about people here who
cant respond ... two strong values sharply conflicting. So far I
have tried to keep my comments generalised. I hope some of this
aftermath processing will make it easier to attend to those fears
Nancy.

You raised a week or so ago if there could have been a better way
... I think these proposals will create a better warm-up to Psyber-L
and the aim is to prevent such extremes.  It is important that the
Host / Listowner can go to this extreme, as can a host in other
venues such as a conference or a restaurant, for the good of the
whole.

>  Is
> there a way so that anyone who had ever been a member or
> became a member could have access to the old archives?  If
> not, then like amnesia one would be sort of cut off from
> parts of themselves.
>   Does this make sense?

Absolutely.  You certainly put clearly the psychological aspect of
the dilemma that has been on my mind.  People who have left could
rejoin, and there would normally be no problem with that.  In the
rare situation of someone who has been removed I would look at that
on a case-by-case basis and be inclined to forward the files for the
months that they wrote in them should they request them.

Much of this comes down to trust in the list owner, but there are
safeguards should I loose the plot.  There would be people who have
archives on their own disks and who could make them available. The
same goes for running the list, as JoAnne pointed out recently ... I
can do what I want, but people can leave and reform.  They can do
that more easily here than in a city or country.  I think a lot of
people joined and left, not as groups who reformed, but simply
because the atmosphere was not conducive to our purposes at times.
(that is my take ... who knows ... it may also be that they did not
know what they were coming into and it sounded like so much
psychobabble!)  I think the proposals will address some of these
things.


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:43:26 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: == Proposed Changes to Psyber-L Design. ==

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:50:05 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:


Walter wrote:

>Much of this comes down to trust in the list owner,

N: Aye.  There's the rub. (As was said elsewhere in a different context.)

  There's the thin place in my psyche where the nerves are exposed.  One
more place where 'others' are in control.
  Sorry.  This just seems to be where I'm at right now.  You needn't make
it 'your problem'.  I'm all too aware of the Ins and Outs of this issue.
  Having had a bad experience with a unilateral group ending last night,
 this morning I once again woke from a dream of my ex making a unilateral
decision with total disregard for my feelings or any responsibility for
reawaking them.  Never thought I had reoccuring dreams but different
versions of this one sure do keep popping up.  This time he'd taken all
the towels I'd freshly laundered and used them to mulch the fruit trees.

  There was such a feeling in me of impotent rage (If you'll excuse me
borrowing a 'male' term.)
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 10:51:34 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Short...well, you asked for it.

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 05:37:53 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:

>
>
>>   I also need the plural for Animus.
>
>The story sounds great and i love the idea of sss ~ micro stories.

N: One of them is about 25-30 words long.
>
>Animi if you ask me.  Has a good ring to it! But what then is the plural of
>Anima?

N: Wouldn't it be 'animas'?

>I think Dr Seus would know:
>
>
>If your anima inside bumps a nearby  animi,
>and the archetypal rumble stirs you up to say, my, my!
>and the complexes compete, even if a little shy
>then relax and watch the animas 'n' musses sort it out while you just sigh.
>
>In your inner psycho jungle, the persona cuts a dash
>and the Oedopoedals mumble that this know-it-all is trash
>and your super egos had it  cause the Ids about to bash,
>then your situations hopeless and your egos gonna crash.
>
>more verses?
>
N: Maybe not.  Doggeral?

If your anima inside bumps a nearby  animi,
and the archetypal rumble stirs you up to say, "Oh, My!"
and the complexes compete, even if a little shy
then stand back as they sort it out while you only sigh.

In your inner psychic jungle, the persona cuts a dash
and the Oedopoedals mumble that this know-it-all is trash
and your super ego's had it  cause the Ids about to bash,
then your situations hopeless and your ego's gonna crash.

Everything is Chaos, nothing can make sense,
If this state goes on  for months and months
How will I hold the fence?
Other people manage and come out of it just fine.

That's just the Collective talking,
With it's sunny, silly stuff
Not everybody makes it.
Sometimes one's had Enough!

You need a friend inside to cheer you.
And noone has appeared.
Only ex's with their slippery ways,
Uncaring and uncut.

It's the waiting gets you,
The daily bump and grind.
When everything seems lost,
Where can one look to find.

An inner friend who understands
That everything is right
And order comes of chaos,
If you can just hang on tight.

It's just so awfully hard
To watch the world go by,
So happy and so busy
While you slog around the sty.

Then be you up and doing
Create yourself some cheer.
Don't mope about just moaning
Whipping future into fear.

Hmmm...you goody two shoes.
What makes you know so much?
Here's my mocossan to try on
You sactimonious cuss.

Keep your foot gear to yourself.
I'm satisfied with mine.
If all you want is weeping
It's you who pay the fine.

Well, there he goes at last.
And now I am alone.
Perhaps now I can discover
For what I must atone.

In the meantime while waiting
I'll hum a little hum..
Perhaps it will not cheer me.
Yet I might not feel so bum.


"Be kind to your web footed friends,
For a duck may be somebody's mother.
Be kind to your friends in the swamp
Where it's always cold and damp.

Now if you think that this is the end...
YOU'RE RIGHT!"




>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:05:27 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: The Psyber-L Web Interface and Archives
In-Reply-To:  <3628bb89.22402215@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 03:37:58 GMT, you, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>,
wrote:

>Note that there are more available than that, and that i need to
>put them up on the server ... it is hard to get around to unless
>someone wants them ... I'd love to get them there for the sake of
>completion, it is just not been a priority and i have them here,
>in a bit of chaos.
>
>Nancy, I'm glad you asked ... as we are exploring the psyche I
>think the arch - ives matter.
>
>(JoAnne, this is not to go against what you wrote in the other
>post about archives at all!  That sounded like aggressive
>behaviour involving inappropriate use of archives! )

The use of archives here has never been like that one!  So no fear; just an
impression on the word as it was being used on me in that instance.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 22:38:03 +0300
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Report
In-Reply-To:  <362521ed.8074747@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello Psyberbians,

Cheryl,

Welcome back. I am here, but  in  mostly  in  a  reading  mode.  I  would
like to write more  on this list, but  at present I'm not able to
contribute  anything in  English, because I 'm  working   all day long  so
hard  with  my new novel.  So I'm  in the evenings  totally worn out. I am
trying to read  - just now  Julia Kristeva's Black Sun,  a very interesting
book about  depression,  but  soon  I notice,  I haven't understood a word,
my  brains simply  cannot  receive  anything.  Much more  difficult  is to
try  write in English. It takes time, and  I'm too tired,  so  I  begin to
surf on the  Net, or  I turn on     TV - and  fall   asleep, programs are
so tedious.

You have moved in Oregon. I  have  an image of  that place:  there is  huge
 trees and forests. I have read Ken  Kesey's  novel Sometimes A Great
Notion, and  seen the movie made  about the  novel.  I have  an artist
friend born in Portland,  but living nowadays in Finland. He gave once  to
me  a collection of poems  written by  Oregonian poet  Gary Snyder, and  I
was  greatly impressed.  I hope, you  will be happy in Oregon.

Nancy,

Your  post  " You Get  What  You Need(?)"  has   waited  my reply.  I  feel
 a  little bit quilt, because  I haven't answer. It is a big  philosophical
 question, and my ability to  make it clearer is  limited.  I need money,
but I never get it.
     Joking apart!  You  told  of an infant murder,  how
>the infant had been held by her ankles and swung hard and
>repeated so that her skull was cracked against a hard >object.  We indicted
>the father.  I can't see how that infant girl received anything useable
for this life.

 It was so cruel, that I  was struck dump. What  could I say?  That life is
 unbearable cruel and  unjust, in most cases.  How   anybody  could  endure
life without  good defenses, one of which  is  the doctrine of reincarnation.

But the context,  from which  the  subject "You Get What You Need"
originated, was  Julienne's   continual  complaining ,that  she is
maltreated  on this list.   Her complaints irritated me, and I  wanted to
say her, that "you get what you need, or want,  don't blame  others ". That
 was that.

I don't know if my sentences are at all English, but at least I tried. I
hope, you understand, what I mean, Nancy. If you are interested, I put  the
whole "  Garden of desires on my Web-site. It is in the address:
http://www.megabaud.fi/~anitak/Garden.htm.
   The  translation is not  very good, but not  too bad.


BTW. Psyber -L is in a  very high place in my ranking-list. I  follow  with
great  interest discussions of the list, and  save  all  it's  posts   into
my personal   archive - of  the only one of the  mailing - lists on which
I  have subscribed.


Cheers
Anita
I         .









Anita
anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.megabaud.fi/~anitak/

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:12:02 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need?

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 22:38:03 +0300, Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI> wrote:


>Nancy,
>
>Your  post  " You Get  What  You Need(?)"  has   waited  my reply.  I  feel
> a  little bit quilt, because  I haven't answer. It is a big  philosophical
> question, and my ability to  make it clearer is  limited.  I need money,
>but I never get it.
>     Joking apart!  You  told  of an infant murder,  how
>>the infant had been held by her ankles and swung hard and
>>repeated so that her skull was cracked against a hard >object.  We indicted
>>the father.  I can't see how that infant girl received anything useable
>for this life.
>
> It was so cruel, that I  was struck dump. What  could I say?  That life is
> unbearable cruel and  unjust, in most cases.  How   anybody  could  endure
>life without  good defenses, one of which  is  the doctrine of reincarnation.
>
>But the context,  from which  the  subject "You Get What You Need"
>originated, was  Julienne's   continual  complaining ,that  she is
>maltreated  on this list.   Her complaints irritated me, and I  wanted to
>say her, that "you get what you need, or want,  don't blame  others ". That
> was that.
>
>I don't know if my sentences are at all English, but at least I tried. I
>hope, you understand, what I mean, Nancy. If you are interested, I put  the
>whole "  Garden of desires on my Web-site. It is in the address:
>http://www.megabaud.fi/~anitak/Garden.htm.
>   The  translation is not  very good, but not  too bad.
>
>
>BTW. Psyber -L is in a  very high place in my ranking-list. I  follow  with
>great  interest discussions of the list, and  save  all  it's  posts   into
>my personal   archive - of  the only one of the  mailing - lists on which
>I  have subscribed.
>
>
>Cheers
>Anita
>I         .
>
>
>
>


Let me see, Anita, if I do understand what (I believe) you are telling
me.
  What you have written in your novel and here on Psyber-list is NOT to
be taken in this way: (Now I'm going to make up stuff as if such a person
 might be talking.)
  "Whatever happens to you in this life you deserve.  In some way you have
invited or provoked whatever bad thing comes your way.  It is all your
own fault, no matter what you say."

  Instead you ARE saying that you got so tired of hearing Julienne say
how she was victimized that you lost patience with her and mean to indicate
that maybe she needed to look at herself a little and see if in some way
she was contributing to the situation.

   If that is, in truth, what you meant, then I guess I can understand
that.  It means that one of the raw places in my psyche where the nerves
were exposed got touch.  I'm new here.  I really don't know you.  I am
still dealing with the mores with which I grew up.  That is, if a
relationship goes wrong, it is always the woman's fault.  (This is sort
of the Collective Animus talking, perhaps?)

   Anita, I hope this goes a way toward setting things right between
us.  I'd like that.  If not, please tell me and we'll try again.

   Blessings,

   Nancy

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:24:17 -0600
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

I couldn't help but invite myself into the conversation between Anita
and yourself.

>   Instead you ARE saying that you got so tired of hearing Julienne say
> how she was victimized that you lost patience with her and mean to indicate
> that maybe she needed to look at herself a little and see if in some way
> she was contributing to the situation.

I got tired of Julienne not listening to any of my words, tired of her
brandishing me and every male on the list with the sins of other men in
her face-to-face life.  Attack and then retreat to a place of *poor
little me, the victimised female.*  If I dared to lose patience with her
strategy then she gleefully pounced and said *I told you so, see you are
mean to me too.*  What happened could not truly be called a conversation
as my words were irrelevant.

The part of your post to Anita that really told me to respond was:

> ... I am
> still dealing with the mores with which I grew up.  That is, if a
> relationship goes wrong, it is always the woman's fault.

I never came from such a way of thinking.  Maybe it's cultural.  If a
relationship failed, it was because the man was at fault.  Either he
failed to hold his woman or he forgot his duty at home and invested his
energy in too many women.  I saw more physical violence being acted out
by the women (slapping their men, hitting their children ... I can still
see my grandmother chasing my two youngest uncles down the street with a
broom.  She broke the broom hitting them.) than by the men.  I saw men
hit other men for showing disrespect to a woman.  The code of honour was
VERY strong.  Every man saw himself as *chevalier* as a knight
protecting the honour and the person of his lady.  Chauvinist stuff, I
know.  The real power in the family was the woman, and everyone knew
it.  Trespass on that power and you were painfully reminded of the
reality.

And now, as an adult, I'm learning that relationships are not the
responsibility of either man or woman, they are the responsibility of
BOTH parties ... and gender is not relevant.

Robert

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Oct 1998 00:46:20 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need?

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:24:17 -0600, Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>I couldn't help but invite myself into the conversation between Anita
>and yourself.

zN" O
N: I'm delighted that you did. For clearly you have something valuable to
say to us fems.
>
>>   Instead you ARE saying that you got so tired of hearing Julienne say
>> how she was victimized that you lost patience with her and mean to indicate
>> that maybe she needed to look at herself a little and see if in some way
>> she was contributing to the situation.
>
>I got tired of Julienne not listening to any of my words, tired of her
>brandishing me and every male on the list with the sins of other men in
>her face-to-face life.  Attack and then retreat to a place of *poor
>little me, the victimised female.*  If I dared to lose patience with her
>strategy then she gleefully pounced and said *I told you so, see you are
>mean to me too.*  What happened could not truly be called a conversation
>as my words were irrelevant.
N: I am gso glad to hear you say this.  I was entirely unaware of this aspect.
What a gift to bring someone something of value that they had entirely missed.

>The part of your post to Anita that really told me to respond was:
>
>> ... I am
>> still dealing with the mores with which I grew up.  That is, if a
>> relationship goes wrong, it is always the woman's fault.
>
>I never came from such a way of thinking.  Maybe it's cultural.  If a
>relationship failed, it was because the man was at fault.  Either he
>failed to hold his woman or he forgot his duty at home and invested his
>energy in too many women.  I saw more physical violence being acted out
>by the women (slapping their men, hitting their children ... I can still
>see my grandmother chasing my two youngest uncles down the street with a
>broom.  She broke the broom hitting them.) than by the men.  I saw men
>hit other men for showing disrespect to a woman.  The code of honour was
>VERY strong.  Every man saw himself as *chevalier* as a knight
>protecting the honour and the person of his lady.  Chauvinist stuff, I
>know.  The real power in the family was the woman, and everyone knew
>it.  Trespass on that power and you were painfully reminded of the
>reality.

 N: Sorry.  I still find the knightly archetype has considerable alure.
Even the troubadour, but perhaps less so.  Where did you grow up, Robert?
I grew up in Chicago (part way) but the West Texas Church of Christ mores
 may have had a stronger influence in those early years.  No question there
where the familial responsibility lies.
  Was your heritage Catholic?  Where did you grow up.  This kinda stuff seems to make
such a different.  In my case a West Texas, Church of Christ (read Camelite) would not
chanllange the husbandly guidance of the familial church...unless he abandoned the responibility,
thereby jepordizing the immotal souls of all involved.

respong

stronger
>
>And now, as an adult, I'm learning that relationships are not the
>responsibility of either man or woman, they are the responsibility of
>BOTH parties ... and gender is not relevant.

This sounds ideal.  I've never experienced it.  Are you dead sure you have:



Tjos
>
>Robert

Nancy
I had some trouble with Jung list you will find in your mailbox.
And to an earlier post: yes, you silence if definitely noticed and has its
effect.We miss you.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Oct 1998 09:00:55 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psybernet Web Pages
Comments: To: PsyberGroup <GROUP-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <361af61e.64237438@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I've done more on:

http://psybernet.co.nz/links.htm

Improved the functionality I think, and added a number of
interesting links!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Oct 1998 05:46:33 -0700
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Links
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

I took a look at the links page - there's a lot there. You're certainly
prolific. It'll take some time to follow up whatever interests me - I'm
not really passionate about this just sort of interested - but I
appreciate the steer - I get it that you heard me - I'm such a neophyte -
so much goes on behind the scenes.

It's early in the morning - I didn't sleep well last night - PMS induced
insomnia I think - or maybe just weepy about the move and all. I went to
hear Larry Dossey, MD talk last night - he's big on the interaction of
prayer (or "nonlocal directed intentionality' if you will) and medicine.
I've heard his 'circuit' talk before but it is worth hearing again - a
little like going to church - you've heard the preacher before but it's
good for the soul.

cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Oct 1998 21:37:12 +0300
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need?
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101619120384@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello Nancy,

You wrote:

>if a relationship goes wrong, it is always the woman's fault.  (This is sort
>of the Collective Animus talking, perhaps?)

Yes, it is  the Collective Aninus = the Super-Ego = the Patriarchal  Values
speaking   inside us. The  Voice of  Bad Consciousness?   Unfortunately it
seems, that I   have got   an omnipotent and  sadistic Super-Ego, because
it  claims that   all is my fault -" you're  such a  wretch,  lazy and
stupid woman,  so you deserve  your poor  fate", it says.

 I wonder, what  has been wrong between us, because  you wrote

  > I hope this goes a way toward setting things right between
   >us.  I'd like that.  If not, please tell me and we'll try again.


To my mind there's nothing  wrong.

Love
Anita




Anita
anitak@megabaud.fi
http://www.megabaud.fi/~anitak/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Oct 1998 13:50:19 -0600
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

>  N: Sorry.  I still find the knightly archetype has considerable alure.
> Even the troubadour, but perhaps less so.

Robert Johnson speaks about this model of relation between man and woman
in his book WE: UNDERSTANDING THE PSYCHOLOGY OF ROMANTIC LOVE.  I think
many still hold this model of relation to me today.  Harlequin novels
and movies feed upon this psychology, something that operates for the
most part unconsciously within us.

> Where did you grow up, Robert?

I grew up in Canada.  I went to elementary school in four different
provinces and to high school in two provinces for a total of close to
thirty different schools.  The image of travelling bard/gypsy will come
closest to saying where I grew up.  I did not have a *community* with
which to identify.

> Was your heritage Catholic?  Where did you grow up.  This kinda stuff
> seems to make such a different.

Yes it was a Catholic heritage though the attendance to Catholicism was
a personal agenda as compared to an almost non-agenda by the rest of my
siblings and my father.  My mother was a non-practicing Anglican.
Growing up without roots has influence me quite a bit.  I seem to have
developed a parallel lack of dogma, attendance to a set view of life.
Friends were authors such as Nietzsche, Tolstoi, and Dostoyevski ...

> >And now, as an adult, I'm learning that relationships are not the
> >responsibility of either man or woman, they are the responsibility of
> >BOTH parties ... and gender is not relevant.
>
> This sounds ideal.  I've never experienced it.  Are you dead sure you have:

Yes.  It is an inner-knowledge that I intuit as a face of truth.  All
experience is measured internally.  The external experience then falls
somewhere along the continuum of this inner ideal.  Have I experienced
ideally in the outer world?  I doubt if anything can be ideally
experienced in the outer world.  There are moments to be sure, but then
we lose that numinous glow and again become human.

Robert

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:00:44 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need?

On Sat, 17 Oct 1998 21:37:12 +0300, Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI> wrote:

>Hello Nancy,
>
>You wrote:
>
>>if a relationship goes wrong, it is always the woman's fault.  (This is sort
>>of the Collective Animus talking, perhaps?)
>
>Yes, it is  the Collective Aninus = the Super-Ego = the Patriarchal  Values
>speaking   inside us. The  Voice of  Bad Consciousness?   Unfortunately it
>seems, that I   have got   an omnipotent and  sadistic Super-Ego, because
>it  claims that   all is my fault -" you're  such a  wretch,  lazy and
>stupid woman,  so you deserve  your poor  fate", it says.

N: As far as I can make out that seems to be more or less the norm...
   though certainly the degree differs.  I hope you are able to tell
   'him' where to get off.
>
> I wonder, what  has been wrong between us, because  you wrote
>
>  > I hope this goes a way toward setting things right between
>   >us.  I'd like that.  If not, please tell me and we'll try again.
>
>
>To my mind there's nothing  wrong.
>
>Love
>Anita
>

N; "Oops!" to quote JoAnn.  Hmmm...  Well, I thought if you thought that
   if one's husband was abusive, one have somehow inviting abuse.  That
   is I generalize from what you said to Julienne to my own situation and
   hence felt you would be critical of me and so I felt a bit 'guarded'
   with you.  And then there was the Aphrodite thing...Maybe I should just
   leave it at Oops.

>
>
>
>Anita
>anitak@megabaud.fi
>http://www.megabaud.fi/~anitak/
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Oct 1998 17:31:50 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need?

On Sat, 17 Oct 1998 13:50:19 -0600, Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>>  N: Sorry.  I still find the knightly archetype has considerable alure.
>> Even the troubadour, but perhaps less so.
>
>Robert Johnson speaks about this model of relation between man and woman
>in his book WE: UNDERSTANDING THE PSYCHOLOGY OF ROMANTIC LOVE.  I think
>many still hold this model of relation to me today.

N: Robert, do you remember saying something a couple of months ago about
being the first one to rush in here on Psyber-L?  It seems to me that you
almost always sense when someone is hurting and try to say something to
comfort or empathize.  On the feeling level that is pretty knightly.  It
is also the mark of a well developed Feeling type.

 Harlequin novels
>and movies feed upon this psychology, something that operates for the
>most part unconsciously within us.

N: Hmmm...never read a Harlequin (but a lot of Silhouettes once when
someone told me they paid $30,000 for writing one!  Wrong of course.)
I think I know what you mean.  The strong hero was always having to
rescue the poor helpless (and in movies) screaming heroine.  Very
annoying and demeaning to women.  Ever read any Mosdesty Blaise?  And
yet it seems to me that these were usually physical hazards more than
relational where the man did the rescuing.

>
>> Where did you grow up, Robert?
>
>I grew up in Canada.  I went to elementary school in four different
>provinces and to high school in two provinces for a total of close to
>thirty different schools.  The image of travelling bard/gypsy will come
>closest to saying where I grew up.  I did not have a *community* with
>which to identify.
>
>> Was your heritage Catholic?   This kinda stuff
>> seems to make such a different.
>
>Yes it was a Catholic heritage though the attendance to Catholicism was
>a personal agenda as compared to an almost non-agenda by the rest of my
>siblings and my father.  My mother was a non-practicing Anglican.
>Growing up without roots has influence me quite a bit.  I seem to have
>developed a parallel lack of dogma, attendance to a set view of life.
>Friends were authors such as Nietzsche, Tolstoi, and Dostoyevski ...

N: Yes.  I had a similar experience in terms of moving a lot (though
certainly not 30 schools!  That sound awful...to be always the 'new kid
on the block')  It seems to me I never lived with a single group long
enough to see that many if not most problems can be worked.  Or of seeing
how people grew up and matured.
>
>> >And now, as an adult, I'm learning that relationships are not the
>> >responsibility of either man or woman, they are the responsibility of
>> >BOTH parties ... and gender is not relevant.
>>
>> This sounds ideal.  I've never experienced it.  Are you dead sure you have:
>
>Yes.  It is an inner-knowledge that I intuit as a face of truth.  All
>experience is measured internally.  The external experience then falls
>somewhere along the continuum of this inner ideal.  Have I experienced
>ideally in the outer world?  I doubt if anything can be ideally
>experienced in the outer world.  There are moments to be sure, but then
>we lose that numinous glow and again become human.

N: Okay.  I see.  I was thinking of the outer experience.  At the moment
I can think of only one relationship among my friends that seems truly
equal and happy.  It is a joy to see them meet after even a few hours of
separation.  Both seem to stand a little taller, a little bounce comes
into their steps and an increased warmth into their eyes.

Interesting,

Nancy
>

____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:51:22 -0600
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: I love this List
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

The thread of connection still holds.  I have been reading the
gymnastics of your thought as you try to find the right mould for this
place before casting a new container.  And, I wonder about the moulding
...

I said:

> > All during this time, I found the ebb and flow of vocal presence
> > seemingly matching my participation.  And, this made me feel
> > uncomfortable.  Synchronicity?  Does my silence affect this place?  Does
> > the silence of this place affect me?

and you replied:

> I have a feeling of discomfort at the impact of my participation or
> non-participation.  I have it particularly as I have a sense that
> the *design* of psyber-l is my doing and hence I have set us all up
> for whatever is happening here!  If you recall in our "construction"
> posts i put a strong emphasis on the influence of the construction
> -- description etc.  I think it is true, I think the proposals I put
> up will make a *big* difference.  I certainly want comment on them
> so it is not all coming from me.

Your work with architecture is important and I am glad that you approach
this work with a sort of reverence for *what is* about this place.  I
agree with the move to firming up the lip of the cauldron so that there
are messy spill-overs that have us wondering where our worlds are
travelling out of context of the full dialogue and out of context of the
relationships that are real outside of the words seen on the screens in
cyberland.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:58:35 -0600
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

> the mark of a well developed Feeling type.

Talking about types, I am Dominantly INFP with the N and F being the
superior functions.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 17 Oct 1998 19:07:15 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: You get what you need?

On Sat, 17 Oct 1998 15:58:35 -0600, Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>> the mark of a well developed Feeling type.
>
>Talking about types, I am Dominantly INFP with the N and F being the
>superior functions.
>
>Robert
>
Yes, that is what I would have guessed.

Nancy
(My mailbox is being overwhelmed)
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 09:15:43 +0900
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. W.F. Schmidt" <wschmidt@ELE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>
Subject:      I love this list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

Nancy, Walter, Robert and all,

here I am sitting at my desk in Osaka reading the archives after having
temporarily unsubbed (I got tired of trying to trick the system into going
NOMAIL) and what do I read, Walter plans to change the business regulations
of Psyber-L. I rushed to the Psyber-Net Web-pages to see if any policy
change had been implemented which I missed. No, it still reads that the
archives are open, only entrance to the list is regulated via the owner.

When I subscribed more than two years ago, I did so accepting and later
appreciating the openess of the archives. They are a treasure house of
feelings and they represent important documents for the study of group
dynamics and other aspects of Psyber-space, something which Walter outlines
as the objectives of Psyber-L and its participants.

Nancy's remarks of being cut-off from her roots (Psyber-L roots) made me
realize the gravity of a mover which would close the Psyber-L archives to
the public (that's also me when I am unsubbed).

I am sorry to say that a quick call for a change of the format of Psyber-L
because of some unfortunate incidences reminds me of the action bureaucrats
are taking in the real world when something runs afoul. They usually
propose or carry out *reforms* and *changes in the structure*  which are
nothing more than cosmetic changes to make everybody feel that the
situation is now under control. Many years ago when the US - ESSO - Company
changed to EXXON a cartoon depicted the move as "old gas in new bottles".

Summarizing: Unlike other Psyber-L members on the list, I am here even if I
am not here.

FRITZ

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 05:54:07 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: You get what you need?
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101719071601@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy, all,

you wrote:

> (My mailbox is being overwhelmed)

Getting what you need eh!  <grin>

I am not sure if this is simply a comment on the flow of posts, or
if you could do with some help in *managing emails from a list*.
Perhaps you (or others) could do with assistance in filtering the
Psyber-L posts into a folder of their own.  Lists like this work so
much better if they have their own folder.

I'm offering... not just knightly chivalry, I am preparing help
files as part of a commercial project to host lists, and it is
important that people do *not* get overwhelmed.  Even if it was not
for that I'd still help of course, I want to be sure people can use
this medium to its best advantage, and there is a learning curve!
The info I work on will be freely available to all.

So if you are *not* filtering the posts into their own folders, let
me know what software you are using and I will provide the info
needed, in a way that humans can understand!  That is the idea.

If there are mac users who can do this maybe we could call on you,
as I will not be able to do that side of it.



Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:18:53 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: I love this list
In-Reply-To:  <199810180016.JAA19187@n1.ele.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Fritz,

I am glad you are back and here in body and spirit, which means that
you were here even while you were away.  I hope you are enjoying
Osaka, and your travels.  Is it an adventure or has it become part
of your life too much for it to feel like that?

> I am sorry to say that a quick call for a change of the format of Psyber-L
> because of some unfortunate incidences reminds me of the action bureaucrats
> are taking in the real world when something runs afoul.

Being the 'bureaucrat" on this occasion I can assure you this is not
what I am up to.  The issue of the containment and ''temenos '' has
been on my mind a log time, and has come up many times.  I have
wanted an open list as the portal, porch, foyer or mall, to other
Psybernet Groups, on the one hand.  On the other I have increasingly
felt the sort of thing we do here, as have others, would be enhanced
in a more private space.

Far from proposing this quickly I realised early on that there was
much to learn, for me personally, and about the whole business of
psychology online.  Hence the first and main Psybernet list is this
one and its main focus is "learning about the psyche online".

One of the things I have learnt is that the wonder of the net is
about freedom and openness and so on, but the needs for  containment
await near by.

> Many years ago when the US - ESSO - Company
> changed to EXXON a cartoon depicted the move as "old gas in new bottles".

The changes I propose go quite deep I think... there is a bundle of
them that hang together, which has made it hard to get to actually
doing it, and it will be a process rather than a quick change.

There is the subscription procedure which will make it more visible
to members who enters Psyber-L. The archives to members only.  In
addition to that I will be setting up an open list with different
aims and procedures.

Together this makes up a big step. I have never seen it as clearly
as now, and hence feel more ready. The recent events of removing
someone from the list has sharpened my process, you may be picking
up on that, there is some connection but it is not a reactive move
to that event.

You say that this list, once closed will not be accessible for
research.  In a sense that is right, it is also true that the ethos
and written rules state that nothing is to be quoted outside of the
list without the permission of the owners of the words, and that the
list owner needs to be notified. It was not open for external
researchers.  The openness came from the need to have a window into
Psybernet... long before i knew what to expect.  We now have a
mixture of open and closed.  The intent of Psyber-L is that it is a
form of personal learning and ''research '' through participation. I
expect that can happen more effectively in a closed list.  The very
act of going from public to private will teach the participants a
lot about the psyche here, as we note the effect.


> Summarizing: Unlike other Psyber-L members on the list, I am here even if I
> am not here.

The solution here Fritz is NOMAIL.  I am happy to work this through
with you until we get it just right.  It can be done by you or me,
via email or the web, and it is worth getting right and it is just
as easy as subbing and unsubbing. When you are set to NOMAIL you can
still access the archives and write to the list.

~~~

Fritz, here we are at odds about things!  I welcome it, and there is
no need for group-think here.  The matters you raise are worthy
ones, and even though I feel sure of my ground, I am listening to
what may come up in the way of new angles and ideas.

Good debate is welcome, and there are interesting issues on the
table.

~~~

Within the useful exchange of ideas I have a uneasy feeling that you
have a personal go at me as an intolerant "shrink" and now a
bureaucrat with impulsive power tendencies, but I may well be wrong.
Of course you are quite right to challenge intolerance or
bureaucratic behaviour if you see it in me.  What I am checking out
is if you are making a small but personal attack, if so I don't like
it.  What I can expect in my role here is a respectful look at my
personality as it influences Psyber-L, and a bit of help with its
excesses!  That is fine, and that is how i have mostly taken your
comments.

Looking forward to hearing more on all of this.

Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:43:29 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: I love this List
In-Reply-To:  <3629115A.4909@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert,

> Your work with architecture is important and I am glad that you approach
> this work with a sort of reverence for *what is* about this place.  I
> agree with the move to firming up the lip of the cauldron so that there
> are messy spill-overs that have us wondering where our worlds are
> travelling out of context of the full dialogue and out of context of the
> relationships that are real outside of the words seen on the screens in
> cyberland.

Good to hear the thread holds!  Is it like climbing a mountain and
you fall, and then come to a halt and... yes the rope held!  I know
that feeling.

I certainly respect *what is*... there is no way I would mess with
Psyber-L simply because I wanted something else.  I could easily
just start something else.  The proposals are ones that I think will
improve Psyber-L.  It sounds like you agree Robert.  One of the
reasons I move slowly on these things... is that I do *love this
list*, its weird and wonderful turns and powerful life.  Sometimes i
am just in awe of what happens to the sum of our parts!  If it works
don't fix it, might be a good policy, yet I am a little more
adventurous than that, and it has not always worked that well!

The other major shift I have made, which was in effect a change in
this list, also mid flight, on the fly as they say, was removing
myself as "facilitator".  I feel heaps better not in that role, and
Psyber-l is better for it.  I am writing a short document on the
roles of online leadership and facilitator features, but this list
does not have *one* facilitation comes from us all.  Host,
Listowner, Designer (Architect) and participant are roles that I
have here.  They are roles I am learning more about each day.

While that might have been a more subtle change, most noticeable to
me, I have a good experience of making changes here!

I have gone on a bit, thanks for the appreciation of the Architect.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:08:41 +0100
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Short Short Story
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101514184114@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>   I'm wanting to denote a little startly, a little urgency, a little
>alarm.  It sounds ok to me, but my critic says 'Man' suggests American
>dialect.  How about it Simon?  Is there a better way?

Hi Nancy,

I've been laid low by a nasty virus for a while now, and trying to cope
with a heavy workload at the same time (well, it's seemed heavy, anyway!).
Not much time for the virtual. Since the recent surge in posts I've been
dipping into the stream rather than following the flow, and only got to
this post of yours now. Anyway, 'man' fits with the sort of character you
describe in your post, but it also crosses cultures and cultural strata in
its use, so without the context of that description the reader will
probably go with what is familiar to them - hence your critic's response.
You could try using 'old chap' in place of 'old man' or 'man'; it's more
localised to the sort of character you want to conjure up, though maybe
doesn't suggest quite the same sense of urgency. There again, 'Try to
remember, man!' could be read as irritation rather than urgency or alarm,
it's hard to say without the broader context of the dialogue (and even
then...).

Anyway, try running it past your critic, old chap!

Simon


ps. It's good to see this place springing into life again, and some old
names returning.

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 12:13:12 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Process
In-Reply-To:  <3626354D.7A28@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl,

> Perhaps this is old territory for you, I don't know. What say you re:

It is never old!  This question goes so deep!

> Don't you think that we are limited in this cyber(net) adventure by what can be
> communicated in the written word?

Yes, unless we also use sound, graphics and video etc.  Which on
this list is rare, though we can send links to all of the above.  I
have seen pictures of quire a few people here.  Aside: a friend took
some pictures today, and i thought that there might be one I could
post up.  Have not done that till now.  Somehow i like the *not
knowing* of others and it works both ways.

That very limitation forces us to express verbally our thoughts and
feelings. I think that leads to a particular expression that is
quite powerful.  I have quipped:  The trouble with real life is that
we cant read the emails.  Seriously, I can sit in a group sometimes
and wish i could.  I also miss the medium, especially if I am in a
group that is flooding with speeches.

So I'd change limited to enabled in your line above, but then I am a
fanatic!

> How well we understand each other
> depends on both the skill of the writer and and the skill of the reader... I seem
> to remember thinking about this when I first got onto the list.

That must be true, and illiteracy is one of the obstacles to
overcome when setting up communication places for a *specific*
group.  Some cant type, others cant use a computer, others cant
read... even people who are very capable in other areas.  Education
of the participants is important.

> I know that during the last two years I have been online, I have been able to
> understand some people better than others because their written style
> commuicated to me more easily or was more familiar... That is true 1to1 also
> but less so I think because we have so many more nonverbal cues, including
> sound. Reduced further...the effect of the interent on the psyche may become
> equivalent to the effect of the written word - the letters culture, if you will... only
> speeded up.

What is the psyche?  I have a sense of it being experience and
images shaped to make sense.  Words do that.  Dreams come every
night, the ones that bring psyche are the ones that we muse on!
Often write up.

Do you think that the speeding up of the letters has lead to a shift
in the quality of the interconnection?  I do.  More faster and more
interconnected to more people, and it has led to us feeling a sense
of place here.  I also think the way we can intersperse my text with
yours creates an ease of connection which we could not do on paper.


> Just thinking...looking for something to muse on.

Lovely musing!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:18:18 +0900
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. W.F. Schmidt" <wschmidt@ELE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>
Subject:      I love this list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

Walter and all,

let me start with your last remark first, since it seems to relat to an
important point of Psychology in Psyberspace:

>Walter: Within the useful exchange of ideas I have a uneasy feeling that you
have a personal go at me as an intolerant "shrink" and now a
bureaucrat with impulsive power tendencies, but I may well be wrong.
Of course you are quite right to challenge intolerance or
bureaucratic behaviour if you see it in me.  What I am checking out
is if you are making a small but personal attack, if so I don't like
it.  What I can expect in my role here is a respectful look at my
personality as it influences Psyber-L, and a bit of help with its
excesses!  That is fine, and that is how i have mostly taken your
comments.<

I sometimes have the feeling that my comments here in Psyber-L fall on deaf
ears, no response, I think that Susan Swan filed a similar complaint. I
think it has to do with the absence of nonverbal communication.
Netiiquettes as -) or <g> etc are no substitute. If I make a statement in
the real world, I look into the eyes and faces of the people around me and
I can sense a lot of response. In order to raise the signal of my arguments
to a level in Psyber-L where filters are switched and my message goes
through I feel that I have to resort to kind of waving a red cloth
(keywords - bureaucrats, shrinks etc) even taking into account that the
bull is taking a charge on me. During the almost three years where I
participated in Psyber-L I noticed several times that participants pittied
themselves that they did not have a PhD. To me the world is not divided in
haves and nohaves. Here, in Psyber-space it is totally irrelevant and I
tried to eliminate any trace, but with limitted success, but I felt at
sometimes isolated. On the other hand, it is clear that my professional
education left a mark on my reasoning and arguing, something which people
from another background may not appreciate.
Now about your feelings you expressed. I never had any intentions to
personally attack anybody in this list. To me that would be a Don Quijotean
endevor, fighting imaginary enemies. If you look back into the archives you
will find that time and again I expressed high appreciation of your effort
in maintaining this Psyber-L site.
A few times, I read something addressed to me which made my pulse quicken,
but after a period of thought, I analyzed my reaction and either ignored
the imaginary attack or responded to another topic.
This medium seems to require the attitude of fencing, a hit, the bell
sounds,  you bow and the fencing match goes on.

With respect to your planning of the future Psyber-L, I shall think in more
detail about your post, but a few hard data which I collected: The number
of subscribed participants has decreased continuously over the years, we
had some semi-announcements of leave quite recently. The number of active
participants is perhapts 20 percent of the total. How do you want to fill
all these different parlors if few people make it to the main hall and some
of them leave right away. The other statistics is that the major part of
post nowadays comes from females of this list, the males are silent or have
left. Robert aired his unease about a change of the atmosphere in Psyber-L,
is it true? All these remarks are made with no intention of any sort of
attack, I am just stating the facts which you, we have to face.

With respect to my bout at Osaka, recently I came here for a few weeks
almost every year to work with my Japanese colleague on some
scientific/engineering problems. during this time I get a connection to the
Internet and I unsub at home and sub here in Osaka. I shall reverse the
order in a few weeks.

Greetings

FRITZ

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 12:24:07 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What to say?
In-Reply-To:  <3636158d.222385890@mail.digex.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne,

> >I have a new definition of cyberspace I would like some feed back on:
> >
> >Where we meet with spontaneity the conserved or mediated expression of
> >others.
>
> That seems lopsided to me.  We are the met as well as the meeter.

Yes... I can see how the way i put that makes it lopsided ... I
don't intend that of course.

I am interested in *grasping* it and I don't like the definitions
that exclude people, such as cs = all the nodes on the internet.
I'm not sure about the ones that make it totally imaginal either,
independent of the ... machines?  No, I thought... the encapsulated
expression of others.  I don't think of it as people meeting with
machines, but rather people meeting with people ... but that is not
enough ... it is people meeting with some form of encapsulated copy
of another person, and vice versa.

Sounds garbled, but it is late!

Still thinking about it ...


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 13:34:38 +0100
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      energy
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

All,

I have a sense of people feeling energised here at the moment - Walter and
Nancy in particular. I find myself delighting in that, and also wishing I
could feel the same way! Struggling with the constraints of illness
recently (now on the mend, hopefully) has made me value the sparkling
moments of life more.

good health to all!

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 22:01:28 +0900
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. W.F. Schmidt" <wschmidt@ELE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>
Subject:      energy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

Hello Simon,

I remember you waving to me across the lake. Now I wave back - Get well, quickly

Frtz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 10:56:32 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: I love this list

Mornin' All,

  Things (posts, thoughts, feeling, personalities, Jungia types) are pulling together
for me in a way I'd like to share with you all.  I just hope I can do so
with some clarity and as little stepping on toes as possible.

  Bear woke me at dawn with his usual exuberance and would not be put off
with a still posture and turned back.  (Lordy, Simon, Energy?  Hardly.
This Seasonal Affective D makes me want to go to sleep and not wake up
until Spring!  Only wish I could.)  First thing I do it punch the computer
button to wake it too (Why the heck should it get to sleep when I can't?)

  The first thing I read was Fritz's message resisting Walter's proposed
changes.  (And, yes, Walter, rightly or wrongly, I picked up the same
nuances you did.)  My reaction to his message was, "Hurrah!" (Not the
nuances so much as the objections to the 'New Order')

  Yesterday with Robert's help I subscribed to the Jung List.  So my
impressions are very new and definitely subject to change.  I wouldn't
even air then yet except that they are a part of the 'pulling together' I
mentioned.  I was quite discomforted and hesitant to be joining something
there was no way for me to sample first.  (No open archives) At first
nothing came through and I was afraid to 'command' much as there were
about 6 subgroups of some 7000 plus messages!  Then yesterday's posts
rolled in.  24 of them!  I have downloaded Netscape for the security
level to Market trade online.  (I have Windows '95)  The mail delivery
dones not come in order as it did with Explorer.  So that's the background
to my admittedly obscure little subscript about 'my mailbox'.
  First thing Robert most graciously welcomed me onto the list and asked
me to introduce myself.  Something which has been suggested here which I
have opposed.  (Oh, yes, I had already requested and received the members
list and noted that it included several of our present [and one past]
participants here.  Most of you will already, I think appreciate my
position at that point (though not necessarily agree with it.)
  Now for a little past history.  Just after my divorce I was searching
for a f2f community.  My ex had already commandeered the Singles group
at the Unitarian Church I had talked him into joining for a family
community.  I had a friend who introduced me to Mensa.  It was a very
enlightening (and then enjoyable) experience which I feel bears on my
theme here.  There are a lot of extremely bright (since that is the criteria)
people in the organization.  Mine was a rather small, local group.  They
came from all walks of life.  The significant thing, however, was that
I came to feel that so many had so much ability and such variety of
interests that they had never been able to formalize.  Mensa at it's best
was a place where they could all stand on an equal footing.
  I love this list because here I can be who I appear to be through what
I say and do.  I don't lie, nor do I deliberately mislead.  This partial
anonymity invites so projections, but it also repells a lot which are
based on the outward trapping of one's 'real' life.  I can tell you all
as much or as little as I like about myself.  There is a certain democracy
and lack of pretension to this that I value as authenticity.
  Before joining Jung List I explored this List's archives and found a
certain #004055 about legal problems on jung-psy.  If that sort of thing
is at all influencing your push for change, Walter, I will try not to
blame you, but I think you should say so.
  The other factor I noticed was a certain purely emotional discomfort
 I felt and Walter mentioned about discussing a now absent member.  There
are valid points to this.  However (at this present moment of 'pulling
together' within myself) I wish too discount them in action while
remaining aware of them in thought.  We did all we knew to do at the time.
It has now happened.  I suspect the person could appeal.  If not, clearly
the person has a choice whether to access our archives.
  Thus ends this portion.
  Now what is lost here by our dependance on the written word?  My
perception is that that may depend a lot on the person.  And here we
get to typal stuff, but also culture perhaps.  Walter and I (both on the
Feeling side of the T-F continuum.) picked up the same nuances in Fritz's
post.  JoAnn felt I might think she was being rude.  Anita didn't seem to
identify a 'static' between us which I'd thought was clear.  Feeling
types are in general more tuned to the nuances of even written speach.
Thinking types in their desire to 'cut to the chase' sometimes seem a bit
abrupt to Feelers.  (Actually my own 'abruptness' (?) to JoAnn was because
I felt she implied it hadn't occurred to me to make the meaning of 'clock'
clear in my story.) And 'oh, yes' intuitives are vague.
  Most of us grew up 'bookish'.  The work of novelists and other short
story writer is to make the nuances clear by 'showing' rather than 'telling'
Particularly at times of seasonal vulnerability I would prefer to have a
post ignore than to have someone turn their back on me in the middle of
and emotional moment and walk out of the room.
  My query to Simon was an example of this sort of thing.  I don't recall
if you told your type or not, Simon, but I'm bet, like me, you are on
the Intuitive/Perceptive side (Usems never want to say anything too firmly)
So let me check and see if I understand.  I believe you are saying that
the use of 'Man' in this dialogue IS appropriate for an upper class
Englishman, but might also be used by various classes in the U.S.  Is
that correct?  A little irritation implied is fine.
  "A haiku?  Which one?  Not the...  Try to remember, Man!"
  I feel that 'old chap' is too affectionate for this rather stuffy
character.  (But thanks for using it to me <g>)
  Now I will quote to you something from my father, Dr. Smith's <g>
autobiography.  It will in most cases but echo something you already
know so well.

  "Talk seems so natural to many people that they cannot discipline themselves
into believing it a human virtuosity rather than a gift of grace to all.
Communication is as rare as it is lovely; but it does not come easy and it is
never cheap...The only way to get accuracy out of ambiguity is upon
demand to spell out precisely what we mean...Rationality requires discipline, but
it rewards discipline with the ripened fruit of communication.  There
is no way around it, only through it."

do.  That p

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:16:01 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Anima(l)s on the furniture

Either you are all busy or my last didn't go down well.

I've got a little time now which I may not have soon because I have rather
foolishly (I fear) gotten myself involved in 3 projects all of which call
primarily on my Inferior Function: Sensation.

  So here ar some chuckles for the animal lovers among you (Cheryl, Walter,
Delores come immediately to mind).

FAMOUS DOG QUOTES
>
>"Some days you're the dog; some days you're the hydrant."
>-- Unknown
>
>"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about
>puppies." -- Gene Hill
>
>"In dog years, I'm dead." -- Unknown
>
>"Dogs feel very strongly that they should always go with
>you in the car, in case the need should arise for them to
>bark violently at nothing right in your ear."  -- Dave Barry
>
>"Outside of a dog, a book is probably man's best friend;
>inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."  -- Groucho Marx
>
>"To his dog, every man is Napoleon; hence the constant
>popularity of dogs."  -- Aldous Huxley
>
>"A dog teaches a boy fidelity, perseverance, and to turn
>around three times before lying down."  -- Robert Benchley
>
>"Did you ever walk into a room and forget why you walked
>in?  I think that's how dogs spend their lives."  -- Sue
>Murphy
>
>"I loathe people who keep dogs. They are cowards who
>haven't got the guts to bite people themselves."  -- August
>Strindberg
>
>"No animal should ever jump up on the dining room furniture
>unless absolutely certain that he can hold his own in the
>conversation."  --
>Fran Lebowitz
>
>"Ever consider what they must think of us? I mean, here we
>come back from a grocery store with the most amazing haul
>-- chicken, pork, half a cow. They must think we're the
>greatest hunters on earth!"
>-- Anne Tyler
>
>"I wonder if other dogs think poodles are members of a
>weird religious cult."  -- Rita Rudner
>
>"My dog is worried about the economy because Alpo is up
>to 99 cents a can. That's almost $7.00 in dog money." -- Joe
>Weinstein
>
>"If I have any beliefs about immortality, it is that certain
>dogs I have known will go to heaven, and very, very few
>persons."  -- James Thurber
>
>"You enter into a certain amount of madness when you
>marry a person with pets."  -- Nora Ephron
>
>"Don't accept your dog's admiration as conclusive evidence
>that you are wonderful."  -- Ann Landers
>
>"Women and cats will do as they please, and men and dogs
>should relax and get used to the idea."  -- Robert A.
>Heinlein
>
>"In order to keep a true perspective of one's importance,
>everyone should have a dog that will worship him and a cat
>that will ignore him."  --  Dereke Bruce, Taipei, Taiwan
>
>"Of all the things I miss from veterinary practice, puppy
>breath is one of the most fond memories!"  -- Dr. Tom Cat
>
>"There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking
>your face." -- Ben Williams
>
>"When a man's best friend is his dog, that dog has a
>problem."  --
>Edward Abbey
>
>"Cat's motto: No matter what you've done wrong, always
>try to make it look like the dog did it." -- Unknown
>
>"Money will buy you a pretty good dog, but it won't buy the
>wag of his tail."  -- Unknown
>
>"No one appreciates the very special genius of your
>conversation as the dog does." -- Christopher Morley
>
>"A dog is the only thing on earth that loves you more than
>he loves himself." -- Josh Billings
>
>"Man is a dog's idea of what God should be." -- Holbrook
>Jackson
>
>"The average dog is a nicer person than the average
>person."  -- Andrew A. Rooney
>
>"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog.
>You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours,
>faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to
>him to be worthy of such devotion." -- Unknown
>
>"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he
>will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a
>dog and a man."
>-- Mark Twain
>
>"Things that upset a terrier may pass virtually unnoticed by
>a Great Dane." -- Smiley Blanton
>
>"I've seen a look in dogs' eyes, a quickly vanishing look of
>amazed contempt, and I am convinced that basically dogs
>think humans are nuts."  -- John Steinbeck
>
>-
>
  Sorry about the >>>> thingies.  This has been forwarded and I thought
you could probably read around them.

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:24:05 +0100
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: energy
In-Reply-To:  <199810181301.WAA21043@n1.ele.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 2:01 pm +0100 18/10/98, Dr. W.F. Schmidt wrote:
>Hello Simon,
>
>I remember you waving to me across the lake. Now I wave back - Get well,
>quickly
>
>Frtz

Thanks for this, Fritz. I feel a burst of energy from your wave returned
across time and space! In my mind's eye an image of sunshine sparkling on
gently lapping waters, breath fogging in crisp, chill Autumn air... the
stillness of contemplation reminding me now of a Japanese garden I once
visited, the most peaceful place on Earth, or so it felt... some things
just stay with you...

simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:55:58 +0100
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: I love this list
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998101810564207@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,

>  Bear woke me at dawn with his usual exuberance and would not be put off
>with a still posture and turned back.  (Lordy, Simon, Energy?  Hardly.
>This Seasonal Affective D makes me want to go to sleep and not wake up
>until Spring!  Only wish I could.)  First thing I do it punch the computer
>button to wake it too (Why the heck should it get to sleep when I can't?)

the urge to post, to explore... feels like a positive energy.. a
counterbalance, perhaps?
have you tried those light panels that are supposed to help with SAD?
I use a halogen desktop lamp for work these days; I find its light gives me
a lift, and also is easier on the eyes (softer but gives more energy,
somehow)


>  My query to Simon was an example of this sort of thing.  I don't recall
>if you told your type or not, Simon, but I'm bet, like me, you are on
>the Intuitive/Perceptive side (Usems never want to say anything too firmly)

I just try to flow with how I'm feeling...
as for type, you mean that Myers-Briggs test? my curiosity got the better
of me earlier this year and I took it a few times; each time came out INFP,
so i guess that says something... but I feel uncomfortable about 'ready
reference' labelling - you are this, you are not that...


>So let me check and see if I understand.  I believe you are saying that
>the use of 'Man' in this dialogue IS appropriate for an upper class
>Englishman, but might also be used by various classes in the U.S.  Is
>that correct?  A little irritation implied is fine.

Yep. In the UK too.

>  "A haiku?  Which one?  Not the...  Try to remember, Man!"
>  I feel that 'old chap' is too affectionate for this rather stuffy
>character.  (But thanks for using it to me <g>)

It does tend to have an avuncular association. Could be used sarcastically,
though. Perhaps: "Try to remember! Old chap." (the emphasis here a bit more
on the old! failing memory...)


>  Now I will quote to you something from my father, Dr. Smith's <g>
>autobiography.  It will in most cases but echo something you already
>know so well.
>
>  "Talk seems so natural to many people that they cannot discipline themselves
>into believing it a human virtuosity rather than a gift of grace to all.
>Communication is as rare as it is lovely; but it does not come easy and it is
>never cheap...The only way to get accuracy out of ambiguity is upon
>demand to spell out precisely what we mean...Rationality requires
>discipline, but
>it rewards discipline with the ripened fruit of communication.  There
>is no way around it, only through it."

precision and ambiguity need one another...


Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:01:23 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: I love this list
In-Reply-To:  <362a82cb.3011484@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>, on Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:18:53
GMT you wrote:

Somehow I read your name as Walter Logemia, and thought of it as something
like anemia or, pardon the word, diarrhea; that words were pouring out, and
that so surprised me, because you are generally so measured even when being
open.

>Being the 'bureaucrat" on this occasion I can assure you this is not
>what I am up to.  The issue of the containment and ''temenos '' has
>been on my mind a log time, and has come up many times.  I have
>wanted an open list as the portal, porch, foyer or mall, to other
>Psybernet Groups, on the one hand.  On the other I have increasingly
>felt the sort of thing we do here, as have others, would be enhanced
>in a more private space.
>
>Far from proposing this quickly I realised early on that there was
>much to learn, for me personally, and about the whole business of
>psychology online.  Hence the first and main Psybernet list is this
>one and its main focus is "learning about the psyche online".
>
>One of the things I have learnt is that the wonder of the net is
>about freedom and openness and so on, but the needs for  containment
>await near by.
>
>> Many years ago when the US - ESSO - Company
>> changed to EXXON a cartoon depicted the move as "old gas in new bottles".
>
>The changes I propose go quite deep I think... there is a bundle of
>them that hang together, which has made it hard to get to actually
>doing it, and it will be a process rather than a quick change.

The change you suggest I think is a real change, and not just old gas in
new bottles.  The difference is real if a difference is felt.  If Fritz
feels the change, it must have meaning!

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:01:30 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: What to say?
In-Reply-To:  <362fdb9d.25752978@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>, on Sun, 18 Oct 1998 12:24:07
GMT you wrote:

>JoAnne,
>
>> >I have a new definition of cyberspace I would like some feed back on:
>> >
>> >Where we meet with spontaneity the conserved or mediated expression of
>> >others.
>>
>> That seems lopsided to me.  We are the met as well as the meeter.
>
>Yes... I can see how the way i put that makes it lopsided ... I
>don't intend that of course.

>I am interested in *grasping* it and I don't like the definitions
>that exclude people, such as cs = all the nodes on the internet.
>I'm not sure about the ones that make it totally imaginal either,
>independent of the ... machines?  No, I thought... the encapsulated
>expression of others.  I don't think of it as people meeting with
>machines, but rather people meeting with people ... but that is not
>enough ... it is people meeting with some form of encapsulated copy
>of another person, and vice versa.

I think you did strike on something important though with the word
encapsulated -- the time-shiftedness of it all.  We absorb what someone
else said in a torrent, though it may be written in long painstaking hours,
and respond at our own pace, only to have our replies received in a torrent
too.  The concentrated humanity can be a rush, it can be overwhelming, it
can be off-putting and confusing.

Hence the importance of filters which help our overwhelmed senses make
sense of so many inputs.  I know in my case that filters have probably
doubled my capacity for handling email groups.  I look at my list of lists
in Agent -- I belong to 20 discussion lists and 20 others that are either
information only or ones for which I do not have any desire or enough
expertise to participate.  Some are work-related, some are
interest-related, some are people-related.

There's the place-shiftedness too.  We correspond with those on the other
side of the globe as if they were in the same room with us, yet those who
are next door but poor e-correspondents for whatever reason seem far and
wee.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:01:26 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: I love this list
In-Reply-To:  <199810181218.VAA20887@n1.ele.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
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Hello "Dr. W.F. Schmidt" <wschmidt@ELE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>, on Sun, 18 Oct
1998 21:18:18 +0900 you wrote:

>I sometimes have the feeling that my comments here in Psyber-L fall on deaf
>ears, no response, I think that Susan Swan filed a similar complaint. I
>think it has to do with the absence of nonverbal communication.

I don't.  Or rather, that it has to do with communicating in psyberia as if
it were a regular verbal communication.  I've felt ignored at times, and
understood at times, and the wide variety of responses have been purely
human and natural responses from purely human and natural respondees
depending on my communications and the environment in which they were
launched.

>Netiiquettes as -) or <g> etc are no substitute. If I make a statement in
>the real world, I look into the eyes and faces of the people around me and
>I can sense a lot of response. In order to raise the signal of my arguments
>to a level in Psyber-L where filters are switched and my message goes
>through I feel that I have to resort to kind of waving a red cloth
>(keywords - bureaucrats, shrinks etc) even taking into account that the
>bull is taking a charge on me.

So you pre-empted discussion on a lower level and chose this level first.
You got a reaction.  But getting a reaction is not the same as reaching the
people here.  You may say something that we all feel but do not respond to.
You are increasing your volume because the audience's faces and applause
are not visible to you, as the Ugly American tourist yells repeated
simplifications at the "foreigner" who does not respond in English to him
but may understand him.

The problem may not be the message or the recipient but the feedback loop.

>During the almost three years where I
>participated in Psyber-L I noticed several times that participants pittied
>themselves that they did not have a PhD. To me the world is not divided in
>haves and nohaves. Here, in Psyber-space it is totally irrelevant and I
>tried to eliminate any trace, but with limitted success, but I felt at
>sometimes isolated. On the other hand, it is clear that my professional
>education left a mark on my reasoning and arguing, something which people
>from another background may not appreciate.

I appreciate reasoning and arguing skills, Fritz.  I hold logic and reason
quite dear; it's the emotional stuff I'm still struggling to learn.

You seem to put yourself on a pedestal of reason.  I don't feel unworthy of
discussing things with you because I don't have a PhD.

>Now about your feelings you expressed. I never had any intentions to
>personally attack anybody in this list. To me that would be a Don Quijotean
>endevor, fighting imaginary enemies. If you look back into the archives you
>will find that time and again I expressed high appreciation of your effort
>in maintaining this Psyber-L site.
>A few times, I read something addressed to me which made my pulse quicken,
>but after a period of thought, I analyzed my reaction and either ignored
>the imaginary attack or responded to another topic.

Why not actually address the thing in a logical fashion?  Or respond that
the thing made you angry, or upset, or was meant to be hurtful, and you
don't like it?  This is a question, by the way, not a prescription for you.
Just wondering why you would choose to do that.  NLP again?

If so, is your NLP failing you or is it working when you try to condition
us to not make statements that make your pulse quicken?  Your tools are
more limited here perhaps?  Certainly a smiley is not the same as a hand on
the shoulder.  But there may be equally effective cyber-tools you haven't
hit upon yet.

>This medium seems to require the attitude of fencing, a hit, the bell
>sounds,  you bow and the fencing match goes on.

Is that in an emotional or logical sense?

>With respect to your planning of the future Psyber-L, I shall think in more
>detail about your post, but a few hard data which I collected: The number
>of subscribed participants has decreased continuously over the years, we
>had some semi-announcements of leave quite recently. The number of active
>participants is perhapts 20 percent of the total.

Has that participation percentage stayed steady?  Or are we narrowing
subscribers to participants?

>How do you want to fill
>all these different parlors if few people make it to the main hall and some
>of them leave right away. The other statistics is that the major part of
>post nowadays comes from females of this list, the males are silent or have
>left.

You're part of that equation.  Just as women are passing the buck if they
say, "men walk all over women and get away with it," you may be passing the
buck a little by complaining that it's only women participating here.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:54:00 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: I love this list

On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:55:58 +0100, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>>  Bear woke me at dawn with his usual exuberance and would not be put off
>>with a still posture and turned back.  (Lordy, Simon, Energy?  Hardly.
>>This Seasonal Affective D makes me want to go to sleep and not wake up
>>until Spring!  Only wish I could.)  First thing I do it punch the computer
>>button to wake it too (Why the heck should it get to sleep when I can't?)
>
>the urge to post, to explore... feels like a positive energy.. a
>counterbalance, perhaps?

N: The 'downer' took me by surprise this year, which until mid-Aug had
been unusually 'up'.  Perhaps a 'lively' colloquial style helps here?

>have you tried those light panels that are supposed to help with SAD?
>I use a halogen desktop lamp for work these days; I find its light gives me
>a lift, and also is easier on the eyes (softer but gives more energy,
>somehow)

N: Interesting.  Hadn't thought of halogen.  I have a double artist's
light with an incandescent nested in a round flourescent.  Plan to replace
the incandescent with a plant-grow bulb today (wider spectrum).
Rosenthal's book Winter Blues talks about 'light boxes' of 10000 lux for
30 min. or 2500 for 2 hrs.  I've just begun to explore and today posted
a note to my doctor hoping he would do likewise.  No sure, but have a
feeling luxes may refer to a lot more 'candles' or 'watts' than any
normal light.  Sounds like a nuisance, but, golly, so are the symptoms.
>
>
>>  My query to Simon was an example of this sort of thing.  I don't recall
>>if you told your type or not, Simon, but I'm bet, like me, you are on
>>the Intuitive/Perceptive side (Usems never want to say anything too firmly)
>
>I just try to flow with how I'm feeling...

N: Yes.  I see that.  Also your (ever so helpful) comments seemed more
definite when I reread them after posting.

>as for type, you mean that Myers-Briggs test? my curiosity got the better
>of me earlier this year and I took it a few times; each time came out INFP,
>so i guess that says something... but I feel uncomfortable about 'ready
>reference' labelling - you are this, you are not that...

N: That seems to be a frequent reaction and I knew I was putting it
rather that way yesterday (but I was on a specific path and the post
was getting awfully long).  The functions are, after all, 'preferences',
Which I like to think of as each having both positive and negative
tendencies.

>>So let me check and see if I understand.  I believe you are saying that
>>the use of 'Man' in this dialogue IS appropriate for an upper class
>>Englishman, but might also be used by various classes in the U.S.  Is
>>that correct?  A little irritation implied is fine.
>
>Yep. In the UK too.

N: Good.  That's what I needed.  This particular critic is an English
ex-prof. born and raised in 'Chaleston' (Charleston) South Carolina,
more a poetry writer and editor than prose.

>>  "A haiku?  Which one?  Not the...  Try to remember, Man!"
>>  I feel that 'old chap' is too affectionate for this rather stuffy
>>character.  (But thanks for using it to me <g>)
>
>It does tend to have an avuncular association. Could be used sarcastically,
>though. Perhaps: "Try to remember! Old chap." (the emphasis here a bit more
>on the old! failing memory...)
>
N: Microsoft Bookshelf uses the word 'benevolent' uncle in connection
with avuncular which isn't what I'm after.
  I am quite content with the decision on 'Man' you have helped me
reach.  Thanks ever so...  Now I must work on the uneducated American,
which may prove harder.  Think I'll hunt up my Mark Twain.
>
>>  Now I will quote to you something from my father, Dr. Smith's <g>
>>autobiography.  It will in most cases but echo something you already
>>know so well.
>>
>>  "Talk seems so natural to many people that they cannot discipline themselves
>>into believing it a human virtuosity rather than a gift of grace to all.
>>Communication is as rare as it is lovely; but it does not come easy and it is
>>never cheap...The only way to get accuracy out of ambiguity is upon
>>demand to spell out precisely what we mean...Rationality requires
>>discipline, but
>>it rewards discipline with the ripened fruit of communication.  There
>>is no way around it, only through it."
>
>precision and ambiguity need one another...

N: Yes.  I don't think either he or I would differ with that in the
general.  (Goes knows Jung couldn't.) Dad was speaking of a particular
situation.  My mother, in fact.  I thought it pertinent in view of some
of our recent efforts here.  The important thing seems to be to try
to stay turned to 'where the other is coming from'. (From whither the
other cometh?)  And then be ready to reframe and ask, if that doesn't
suffice.  I've come to believe that my parents would have benefited
from an exposure to the concepts of Jungian Types just as the Analysts
Jane and Joseph Wheelwright write of having done.  Then again, that to
takes patience, interest and discipline.
>
>
>Simon
>
N: I alway enjoys 'talk' with you, Simon, regarding you as something of
a kindred spirit.  And do hope you can soon banish the residues of that
nasty bug.  Such a thing, continuing, sure can drag you down.

  Affectionately,

  Nancy____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:05:37 +0100
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      memorable quotes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

A couple of memorable phrases (to my suspect memory, anyway!) from a few
weeks back; it seems to me that both capture something essential
(essence-ial?!) about 'here':

Stephen spoke of "the constellation of fierce animosity and cheap yet
overbearing feeling" in reference to the Gender War.

Joanne spoke of "a place where the rules end and the dark or bright edge
begins."

And I was wondering, in a rhetorical kind of way:

what is the measure of cheap feeling?

what distinguishes a dark edge from a bright edge?

quizzical Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:07:39 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: I love this list
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy and Simon, I snipped this out...been doing the Batan Death March in
rehersals so only dipping in here when I can...
N: The 'downer' took me by surprise this year, which until mid-Aug had
been unusually 'up'.  Perhaps a 'lively' colloquial style helps here?

>S:have you tried those light panels that are supposed to help with SAD?
>I use a halogen desktop lamp for work these days; I find its light gives me
>a lift, and also is easier on the eyes (softer but gives more energy,
>somehow)

N: Interesting.  Hadn't thought of halogen.  I have a double artist's
light with an incandescent nested in a round flourescent.  Plan to replace
the incandescent with a plant-grow bulb today (wider spectrum).
Rosenthal's book Winter Blues talks about 'light boxes' of 10000 lux for
30 min. or 2500 for 2 hrs.  I've just begun to explore and today posted
a note to my doctor hoping he would do likewise.  No sure, but have a
feeling luxes may refer to a lot more 'candles' or 'watts' than any
normal light.  Sounds like a nuisance, but, golly, so are the symptoms.
>

Nancy,Have a friend who suffers greatly in the winter's in Cleveland...she
got a light box and it helped...my own input is to wonder about the
flourescent light...I can't be anywhere near them because they flicker and
it makes me nuts...

In an interesting turn, I have been crazed by no sleep and tried
everything...I thot it was because of my health stuff these last 2
years...I kept praying for an answer and I began to get an image of those
black satin masks to wear to bed...went back and realized I haven't been
sleeping in darkness for over 6 years...egad...so I put things all over my
windows and the first night I slept for 6 hours...light and dark

Back to my script
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:49:08 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: What to say?
In-Reply-To:  <363af02f.98147185@mail.qis.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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JoAnne,

> I think you did strike on something important though with the word
> encapsulated -- the time-shiftedness of it all.  We absorb what someone
> else said in a torrent, though it may be written in long painstaking hours,
> and respond at our own pace, only to have our replies received in a torrent
> too.  The concentrated humanity can be a rush, it can be overwhelming, it
> can be off-putting and confusing.

I had not thought of this aspect of it, I have experienced this, but
not heard it said and noted.  I think I had it the other day, when
there were a couple of concentrations of humanity here that...
overwhelmed me... that is it exactly, though it was a minor case of
it!  I was ripe for overwhelming as well after a long day.  What has
helped a lot is to see subsequent posts slowly diluting and
unpacking the concentrated humanity.

I like the notion: concentrated humanity.  Like a novel might be,
some have taken a life time to write, and may take only days to
read.  That is the idea I have been looking for about cyberspace.
It now holds so much of what humans have produced ... the
abstraction, extraction, concentration of our endeavours.

In this sense it mirrors in some way the collective unconscious (by
whatever name).


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:29:13 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: I love this list

On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:07:39 -0400, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:

>
>Nancy,Have a friend who suffers greatly in the winter's in Cleveland...she
>got a light box and it helped...my own input is to wonder about the
>flourescent light...I can't be anywhere near them because they flicker and
>it makes me nuts...
>
>In an interesting turn, I have been crazed by no sleep and tried
>everything...I thot it was because of my health stuff these last 2
>years...I kept praying for an answer and I began to get an image of those
>black satin masks to wear to bed...went back and realized I haven't been
>sleeping in darkness for over 6 years...egad...so I put things all over my
>windows and the first night I slept for 6 hours...light and dark
>
>Back to my script
>Judith
>

N: It's all so terribly individualistic, isn't it.  I was once
told that "you aren't given a road map to life."  And it's true.
  Yes there are things overlooked that can be gained from
sharing.  For over half a year I've been living with one room
half cluttered with huge electronic boxes.  (You know how they
tell you, 'save the box in case the item has to be returned to
the factory'?)  A friend said, 'Oh, I just break them down so
they can be stored flat at the back of a closet.  I couldn't
believe I'd never thought of that!

  Thanks for sharing, Judith,

  Nancy
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:32:20 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: memorable quotes
In-Reply-To:  <v04003a05b2510959df65@[195.200.19.56]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon,


> what is the measure of cheap feeling?

I have been thinking about that, since you have drawn attention to
these memorable quotes (I'd love to see more!).

I have not put it into context of this list, but I though of soap
operas, and tear jerkers.  Movies with "gratuitous sentiment".  I
cry in them, but they are cheap tears. Perhaps like a cheap thrill,
which is not like a tense moment on a mountain, where the price is
life or death.


Walter.




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:31:11 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: memorable quotes
In-Reply-To:  <v04003a05b2510959df65@[195.200.19.56]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:05:37 +0100, you, "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>,
wrote:

>A couple of memorable phrases (to my suspect memory, anyway!) from a few
>weeks back; it seems to me that both capture something essential
>(essence-ial?!) about 'here':
>
>Stephen spoke of "the constellation of fierce animosity and cheap yet
>overbearing feeling" in reference to the Gender War.
>
>Joanne spoke of "a place where the rules end and the dark or bright edge
>begins."
>
>And I was wondering, in a rhetorical kind of way:
>
>what is the measure of cheap feeling?

Cheap feeling is measured in emotional overstatement, in exaggeration bordering
on caricature, in avoiding the real question if another question is more
heart-tugging.  Laying on the sauce, pulling out all the stops.

>what distinguishes a dark edge from a bright edge?

In my experience you don't always know.  It's as if you can see a shift in the
light before you can decide if it's getting darker or brighter.  Your eyes are
adjusting and you are waiting to see, "what next?"

-JoAnne

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:55:40 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: I love this list
In-Reply-To:  <199810181218.VAA20887@n1.ele.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Fritz,

Thanks for your comments.

Joanne has responded to this post and I must say I was impressed by
many of the points he made and I appreciate this being more than a
two way conversation.

> I sometimes have the feeling that my comments here in Psyber-L fall on deaf
> ears, no response, I think that Susan Swan filed a similar complaint.

Complaint about deaf ears.  Logically not every post can be
responded to, sometimes a post generates six or seven replies and
they some will not be responded to even though they are read, and
thus do not fall on deaf ears.  The response of silence is then for
each of us to work with in our own way ... checking out and seeking
comment ... as in What is Happening?  or simply letting the space
fill with our projections, dreams and fantasy.  I am not sure what
Susan said but it seems *complaint* is one option that does not
offer much hope.

> I
> think it has to do with the absence of nonverbal communication.
> Netiiquettes as -) or <g> etc are no substitute.

In live gatherings exploration of silence and absences can reveal
surprises as well.  Some people, just as they do here, feel
tranquility in silence, others feel anxiety, often, experience in
the family of origin has an influence on what we do in the silence.
Hence the silence is an opportunity to look into our own being... in
fact to take up Cheryl's experiment... it is all me!

JoAnne mentioned that there may be other tools here apart from
"emoticons" smileys etc, tools that do work here... provocative
language to prod others is just one, and not one that I like at all.

We are writers here, and writing is an art.  We have poets here... I
think even though there is more to it than skill and technique that
these things can be *learnt and taught*.  What are the principles of
effective writing that enable us to express our body tone, our
feelings and our presence even when we are not posting!  What are
the tools we can use here?

Fritz, I think you have shown us one... letting us know you are here
when you are not here.  I am always very impressed when there is a
birth or a death, and instantly upon the announcement there are
regulars who are present with their responses, they are *here*, even
while they may not show it in other ways.


> Now about your feelings you expressed. I never had any intentions to
> personally attack anybody in this list.


Good.  I am glad I checked out with you.  I did feel a prod but I
understand that it is not your *intention* and that is important.
It is more that you want to be heard!

I have deleted quite a bit, of your post, and look forward to your
response to Joanne as well as to mine!  However I understand that
there is more to life than Psyber-L!

~~~

> With respect to your planning of the future Psyber-L, I shall think in more
> detail about your post, but a few hard data which I collected: The number
> of subscribed participants has decreased continuously over the years, we
> had some semi-announcements of leave quite recently. The number of active
> participants is perhapts 20 percent of the total.

There have been ups and downs, and they are related to some extent
to where i mention the existence of the list.  Once this exploration
of changes to the list is settled, the announcement of this list 's
changes will lead to a large amount of interest... just because of
the announcement (not the changes per se).

20% is higher than many, however as I scan down the list now I can
recall posts from 26 of the 36 on the list.  There is a high rate of
what I have heard called "churn" turn over, people joining and then
leaving, but JoAnne's idea that we have a smaller but more active
list is true.  One reason is the Renewal command, people now have to
at least respond once every 4 months to stay on the list. That was
not so in the past.


> How do you want to fill
> all these different parlors if few people make it to the main hall and some
> of them leave right away.

I am not interesting in quantity apart from a critical mass to make
the process vital and lively.  I am on another list with 4 people
and it is very rewarding and active, and deeply meaningful.


One of the proposed changes, the more personal enrollment &
introduction may have an influence on the membership and also the
nature of our discussions.  Lets see what that does in terms of the
sense of presence here?

The proposed open list which I have on the drawing board will be
mostly about information and presenting more thought out and
complete pieces and stories as well as occasional specific
discussions.  I think it will be easier for people to stay on than
the more personal and intense, and sometimes demanding Psyber-L.

> The other statistics is that the major part of
> post nowadays comes from females of this list, the males are silent or have
> left. Robert aired his unease about a change of the atmosphere in Psyber-L,
> is it true? All these remarks are made with no intention of any sort of
> attack, I am just stating the facts which you, we have to face.

You can face them too!  I know I am the owner but i am not alone in
the care taking of the list.  People are looking at the place with
care and attention!  On the presence and participation according to
gender, if what you say is right, I think that means we are doing a
good job! It is a complex question though, as we do not have full
stats here about who comes and who leaves ... we have our own
subjective sense of the *atmosphere*.  Now that is another question
which no stats can reveal.

I have a sense (now) of the atmospehere being on the edge of bright
and dark, perhaps a cool and misty night with campfires lit and some
laughter and life around them, knowing that in the morning we will
have more journeys and unknown adventures ahead, and they may be
hard.

I heard Pincola Estes say on a tape, that wherever stories are told
it is always night.

~~~

> With respect to my bout at Osaka, recently I came here for a few weeks
> almost every year to work with my Japanese colleague on some
> scientific/engineering problems. during this time I get a connection to the
> Internet and I unsub at home and sub here in Osaka. I shall reverse the
> order in a few weeks.

Yes.  Please consider the NOMAIL option.

I'll post a note about it with its own Subject line.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 02:03:55 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      == MAIL / NOMAIL ==
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

This option is designed so you can write to the list and read posts
on the web (in private lists, which this one is not, but may become)
while on holiday etc. but not receive email back home.  This would
be really good for people who use cyber cafes while away from home.
Some may even prefer to only use the web interface and not get
email, this is a perfectly ok way to participate here.

Send to the listserv:

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

SET Psyber-L NOMAIL

or

SET Psyber-L MAIL

You may have two email addresses on two computers. Subscribe with
each address and have one set to MAIL and the other to NOMAIL and so
on.  You could ask me to set them so they are immune to the Renewal
procedure every four months (which would be activated if you do not
use one of the addresses to write to the list.  In any cases like
this please contact me if there are hassles so we can get it to work
smoothly.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:09:01 -0500
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      feeelings
In-Reply-To:  <v04003a05b2510959df65@[195.200.19.56]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Simon wonders,

>And I was wondering, in a rhetorical kind of way:
>
>what is the measure of cheap feeling?

Hiya. I presume your rhetorical kind of way will provide to us some of your
own insights? No? Yes?

I like your way of asking about it, nonetheless. What is the measure of
feeling, cheap or otherwise?

***

To me, cheap feeling, signifies a somewhat ineffective manner of
evaluation. Measure has something to do with it, maybe more in the sense of
proportion, or all the dimensions we have to weigh to learn what is the
value of something. Moreover, the weight of our emotional response, or the
ramifications of our disposition. (<-couldn't help myself)

The sense of weight in 'cheapness' isn't so much the overvaluation of
something of lesser value as it is the apparent lack of an effective
weighing process. Some kinds of sentimentality, or intense moodiness, or
black and white thinking, or inappropriate instinctuality, intense
defensiveness, willing the obvious into one's blindspot, and much of the
commitment to a persona where it has no efficacy, are signs of not
weighing...itself a sign of not being adequately in relation, especially to
the "grey of wholeness"

To bring up feeling, weighing, relation, is to bring up the image of
justice and *her* scales. Although the feeling function, eros, and anima
are often *cheaply* confabulated, feeling penetrates all those domains.

We've dug into animus possession in a roundabout way but the other side of
the gender war was anima possession with *her* paradoxical inability to let
the big picture inform her childish moods, umm, etc.

***

The value of the thing is...to us...? Now that I've loaded the question,

***

Anyway, all this off the top of my head and probably somewhat less weighed
than fully weighed! It's a great subject and I'll return with more valuable
data.

What do you feel, Simon?

***

Stephen




.............................................................
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E X C I T I N G - L E A R N I N G - T H R O U G H - P L A Y
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:06:13 +0900
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. W.F. Schmidt" <wschmidt@ELE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>
Subject:      feedback
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

Hi: On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:01:26 GMT JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:

>The problem may not be the message or the recipient but the feedback loop.<
I agree, but what determines the feedback loop? It is the message and it is
the recipient. If the message does not warrant a feedback, there is no
loop, if the recipient does not want to feed back, there is no loop.

>I appreciate reasoning and arguing skills, Fritz.  I hold logic and reason
quite dear; it's the emotional stuff I'm still struggling to learn.<
Can emotions be learned? A psychologist once told me that people who study
science (physics especially) are very difficult for him to analyze because
they escape from their emotions into the safe world of reasoning.

>You seem to put yourself on a pedestal of reason.  I don't feel unworthy of
discussing things with you because I don't have a PhD.<
I tried to explain that this is just the situation I tried to avoid. A PhD
in Physics does not qualify me for a superior point of view on the matters
discussed in this list. I often find in daily life that Professors and
alike think that by virtue of their education they are entitled to enjoy
preferential treatment in a discussion on any topic. That's not my point of
view. The only advantage I think I have is that the preoccupation with
science sharpens the analytical mind for whatever it's worth.

Thank you for making your points,

Fritz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:16:51 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: memorable quotes and ponderings

On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:31:11 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:

>On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:05:37 +0100, you, "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>,
>wrote:
>
>>A couple of memorable phrases (to my suspect memory, anyway!) from a few
>>weeks back; it seems to me that both capture something essential
>>(essence-ial?!) about 'here':
>>
>>Stephen spoke of "the constellation of fierce animosity and cheap yet
>>overbearing feeling" in reference to the Gender War.

N: Would this be when assumptions are challenged with are too important
to the person's defense system to bear the challenge?

>>
>>Joanne spoke of "a place where the rules end and the dark or bright edge
>>begins."

N: Would this be the 'edge of madness' or unconscious in each of us?
>>
>>And I was wondering, in a rhetorical kind of way:
>>
>>what is the measure of cheap feeling?
>
>Cheap feeling is measured in emotional overstatement, in exaggeration bordering
>on caricature, in avoiding the real question if another question is more
>heart-tugging.  Laying on the sauce, pulling out all the stops.

N:My brother, Dr. Smith <g> used to teach a course on the difference
between sentiment and sentimentality.  This sounds to me related to
is the sort of at which you'all are driving.  (Yes?) I looked over his outline one time
and felt there must be a lot of subjectivity about individual judgements
on this issue.  I recall reading somewhere about one of the top nazis,
in charge of the death camps, weeping copiously over the death of his
canary as an example of sentimentality.  It doesn't seem too cut and
dried to me.  Yet I have had the experience of seeing a movie or reading
a story and feeling that the author was deliberately 'trying to pull
my strings'.  Usually it make me pretty resentful.  I felt somehow that
author wasn't doing the work to reach deep and touch something authenitic
in him/herself that then might touch his audience at the same level.
I guess that is 'cheap feeling' means to me.  I don't like having my
feeling tampered with purely for someone else's benefit or profit.

  Off and on I keep pondering Walter's reference to this List as Psyche.
Whose?  The members perhaps.  The Collective as filtered through us.
(Is that close to your meaning, Walter?)  Psyche is soul, right?  An
illusive concept for me.  It used to be thought that women didn't have
a soul.  Men's souls seemed to be feminine.  Does the sould have a
sense of humor?  Does Jesus?  I have a painting of him with his head
thrown back laughing fullsomely.  Hard to reconcile with most other
paintings verbal or visual.

>
>>what distinguishes a dark edge from a bright edge?
>
>In my experience you don't always know.  It's as if you can see a shift in the
>light before you can decide if it's getting darker or brighter.  Your eyes are
>adjusting and you are waiting to see, "what next?"
>
>-JoAnne
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 20:44:02 +0900
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From:         "Dr. W.F. Schmidt" <wschmidt@ELE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>
Subject:      I love this list
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Walter and all,

>Complaint about deaf ears.<
I think it has to do with the fact that we are all entrenched in our own
community, speaking their jargon and following their way of thinking and if
you try to communicate with members of another community difficulties
arise. This is even reflected on a greater scale between nations.

>Hence the silence is an opportunity to look into our own being... in
fact to take up Cheryl's experiment... it is all me!<
Which means that I am constructing the existence of Psyber-space, an entity
born entirely out of my imagination.

>I did feel a prod but I
understand that it is not your *intention* and that is important.
It is more that you want to be heard!<
It is sometimes difficult to avoid the appearance of attack when you mean
constructive criticism. in real life you can grab the arm of the person you
address by this way indicating a personal affection thus putting you words
into the right perspective. Here, in Psyberspace it is the recipient who
decides how to take the words, as Cherryl wrote "you see what you are".

Regards,
Fritz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:51:22 -0700
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From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Phds., feelings, quotes
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Hi all,

Been reading the posts and following along - just not much time to
comtemplate the discussion. Job hunting and house hunting and settling
into this community are my primary concerns.

Still, a few unprofound comments...

Fritz:
I didn't know you had a PhD in physics. PhDs don't impress me - I've seen
too many friends go through graduate school and I'm not inmpressed by the
process - however, the physics part does intrigue me = maybe because I
know so little - do you correlate much of what is discussed here with
processes in physics - I'm quite interested in developing ways of
speaking which integrate disciplines - you mentioned 'the jargon' of a
perticular community - I'm interested in 'jargon' because I think it's an
attempt to codify complex experiences which sometimes another "community"
immediately understands. Possibly a fruitful direction of discussion.

Re: cheap feeling. Seems strange to me to talk of "weighing" feeling. I
don't get it. I think more along the lines of Nancy when she decribed
feeling which manifests as a result of her "strings being pulled". I
think in terms of the origin of feeling - something which emerges out the
depths of our unconscious, ie darkness, being more valuable than
something which is superficially manufactured. More valuable because it
"sheds light". Sort in line with Walter's edge of light and dark of this
list. Does this "weigh more"?

Nancy - thanks for the memorable quotes about dogs. Got any about cats?
Cleo is still under the bathroom sink but less so as she adjusts to being
here. It seems to be the place of choice, however, for the extended
morning nap. It's very endearing.

More another time.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:31:43 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Phds., feelings, quotes

On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:51:22 -0700, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>Been reading the posts and following along - just not much time to
>comtemplate the discussion. Job hunting and house hunting and settling
>into this community are my primary concerns.

N: Boy! I can empathize with that!
>
>Still, a few unprofound comments...
>
>Fritz:
>I didn't know you had a PhD in physics. PhDs don't impress me - I've seen
>too many friends go through graduate school and I'm not inmpressed by the
>process - however, the physics part does intrigue me = maybe because I
>know so little - do you correlate much of what is discussed here with
>processes in physics - I'm quite interested in developing ways of
>speaking which integrate disciplines - you mentioned 'the jargon' of a
>perticular community - I'm interested in 'jargon' because I think it's an
>attempt to codify complex experiences which sometimes another "community"
>immediately understands. Possibly a fruitful direction of discussion.
>
N: You don't also find sometimes that is is a way of maintaining an
'in' group and an 'out' group?  A sort of elitism?  I am intrigued by
the challenge of putting 'jargon' into human terms that everyone can
understand.  (Always assuming the 'others' interest and some time and
patience.)

>Re: cheap feeling. Seems strange to me to talk of "weighing" feeling. I
>don't get it. I think more along the lines of Nancy when she decribed
>feeling which manifests as a result of her "strings being pulled". I
>think in terms of the origin of feeling - something which emerges out the
>depths of our unconscious, ie darkness, being more valuable than
>something which is superficially manufactured. More valuable because it
>"sheds light". Sort in line with Walter's edge of light and dark of this
>list. Does this "weigh more"?

N:  I think maybe we are touching here on one of Jung's more obscure
distinctions.  That between 'feeling' as a function and 'feeling' as
an emotion.  I haven't yet seen enough on this to 'feel' (<g> who
knows?)that it has been sufficiently explored.  Here is what I've
gleaned so far:

1) Feeling, the emotion, is an automatic process of the nervous system.

2) Feeling, the function, is (according to Jung)a rational function like
thinking.  Only where 'thinking' depends on a cause and effect
relationship, 'feeling' depends on the value one places on people,
happenings, ideals.  I think this may be where Stephen is coming from
with his 'weighing'.  (Yes?  No?)

  Can anyone else make this clearer (or, what the heck, different!)?
>
>Nancy - thanks for the memorable quotes about dogs. Got any about cats?
>Cleo is still under the bathroom sink but less so as she adjusts to being
>here. It seems to be the place of choice, however, for the extended
>morning nap. It's very endearing.

N; I, too, think it's endearing.  And, yes, as it happens a friend
responded to my cousin's dog quotes with a some 'Classic Cat Rules'
which I was about to hunt up for another (writer) friend.  If Puter
and I can stay in sync long enough I'll post them (though don't think
they're quick as funny as dog.  Maybe you will.)
>
>More another time.
>
>Cheryl

N: I hope so, Cheryl.  However fraught with meaning the silences here
are I feel the void.

Nancy
Off to hunt 'cats'.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:41:00 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Anima(l)s on the furniture

BASIC RULES FOR CATS WHO HAVE A HOUSE TO RUN

DOORS:
 Do not allow closed doors in any room. To get door
opened, stand on hind legs and hammer with
forepaws. Once door is opened, it is not necessary to use it.
After you have ordered an "outside" door opened, stand halfway in and
out and think about several things. This is particularly important
during very cold weather, rain, snow, or mosquito season. Swinging
doors are to be avoided at all costs.

CHAIRS and RUGS:
If you have to throw up, get to a chair quickly. If
you cannot manage in time, get to an Oriental rug. If there is
no Oriental rug, shag is good. When throwing up on the carpet, make
sure you back up so that it is as long as the human's bare foot.

BATHROOMS:
Always accompany guests to the bathroom. It is not
necessary to do anything -- just sit and stare.

HAMPERING:
If one of your humans is engaged in some close
activity and the other is idle, stay with the
busy one. This is called "helping", otherwise known as
"hampering." Following are the rules for "hampering":

     When supervising cooking, sit just behind the left heel of
the cook. You cannot be seen and thereby stand a better chance of being stepped on and then picked up and comforted.

     For book readers, get in close under the chin, between eyes
and book, unless you can lie across the book itself.

     For knitting projects or paperwork, lie on the work in the
most appropriate manner so as to obscure as  much of the work or at least the most important part. Pretend to doze, but every so often reach out and
slap the pencil or knitting needles. The worker may try to
distract you; ignore it. Remember, the aim is to hamper work.
Embroidery and needlepoint projects make great hammocks in spite
of what the humans may tell you.

     For people paying bills (monthly activity) or working on
income taxes or Christmas cards (annual activity), keep in mind the
aim -- to hamper! First, sit on the paper being worked on.
When dislodged, watch sadly from the side of the table. When activity
proceeds nicely, roll around on the papers,
scattering them to the best of your ability. After being
removed for the second time, push pens, pencils,
and erasers off the table, one at a time.

     When a human is holding the newspaper in front of him/her,
be sure to jump on the back of the paper.
     They love to jump.

WALKING:
As often as possible, dart quickly and as close as
possible in front of the human, especially: on
stairs, when they have something in their arms, in the dark, and
when they first get up in the morning. This will help their
coordination skills.

BEDTIME:
Always sleep on the human at night so s/he cannot move
around.

PLAY:
This is an important part of your life. Get enough sleep
in the daytime so you are fresh for your
nocturnal games. Below are listed several favorite cat games
that you can play. It is important, though, to
maintain one's Dignity at all times. If you should have an
accident during play, such as falling off a chair,
immediately wash a part of your body as if to say "I MEANT to do
that!" It fools those humans every time.

CAT GAMES:
     "Catch Mouse": The humans would have you believe that those
lumps under the covers are their feet and hands. They are lying.
They are actually Bed Mice, rumored to be the most delicious of all
the mice  in the world, though no cat has ever been able to catch
one. Rumor also has it that only the most  ferocious attack can stun
them long enough for you to dive under the covers to get them.
Maybe YOU can be the first to taste the Bed Mouse!

     "King of the Hill": This game must be played with at least
one other cat. The more, the merrier! One or both of the sleeping
humans is Hill 303 which must be defended at
all costs from the other cat(s).
     Anything goes. This game allows for the development of
unusual tactics as one must take the unstable playing theater into account.

WARNING: Playing either of these games to excess will result in
expulsion from the bed and possibly from the bedroom. Should the humans grow restless, immediately begin purring and cuddle up to them.
This should buy you some time until they fall asleep again. If
one happens to be on a human when this
occurs, this cat wins the round of King of the Hill.

TOYS:
Any small item is a potential toy. If a human tries to
confiscate it, this means that it is a Good Toy. Run with it
under the bed. Look suitably outraged when the human grabs you and takes
it away. Always watch where it is put so you can steal it later.
Two reliable sources of toys are dresser tops and wastebaskets.
There are several types of cat toys.

     Bright shiny things like keys, brooches, or coins should be
hidden so that the other cat(s) or humans can't play with them.
They are generally good for playing hockey with on uncarpeted floors.

     Dangly and/or string-like things such as shoelaces, cords,
gold chains, and dental floss also make excellent toys.
They are favorites of humans who like to drag
them across the floor for us to pounce on.

     When a string is dragged under a newspaper or throw rug, it
magically becomes the Paper/Rug Mouse and should be killed at all costs.
Take care, though. Humans are sneaky and will try to make you lose
your Dignity.

PAPER BAGS:
Within paper bags dwell the Bag Mice. They are small
and camouflaged to be the same color as the bag, so they are hard to
see. But you can easily hear the crinkling noises they make as they
scurry around the bag. Anything, up to and including shredding the bag,
can be done to kill them. Note: any other cat you may find in a bag
hunting for Bag Mice is fair game for a Sneak Attack, which will
usually result in a great Tag match.

FOOD:
In order to get the energy to sleep, play, and hamper, a
cat must eat. Eating, however, is only half the fun. The other half
is getting the food. Cats have two ways to obtain food: convincing
a human you are starving to death and must be fed *NOW*; and
hunting for it oneself. The following are guidelines for getting fed.

     When the humans are eating, make sure you leave the tip of
your tail in their dishes when they are not looking.

     Never eat food from your own bowl if you can steal some
from the table.

     Never drink from your own water bowl if a human's glass is
full enough to drink from.

Should you catch something of your own outside, it is only
polite to attempt to get to know it. Be insistent -- your food will
usually not be so polite and try to leave.

     Table scraps are delicacies with which the humans are
unfortunately unwilling to readily part. It is beneath the Dignity
of a cat to beg outright for food as lower
forms of life such as dogs will, but several techniques exist for ensuring
that the humans don't forget you
exist. These include, but are not limited to:
    - jumping onto the lap of the "softest" human and purring loudly;
    - lying down in the doorway between the dining room and the kitchen;
    - the Direct Stare;
    -twining around people's legs as they sit and eat while meowing plaintively.

SLEEPING:
As mentioned above, in order to have enough energy for
playing, a cat must get plenty of sleep.  It is generally not
difficult to find a comfortable place to curl up. Any place a
human likes to sit is good, especially if it contrasts with your fur
color.
If it's in a sunbeam or near a heating duct or radiator, so much
the better.  Of course, good places also exist outdoors, but have
the disadvantages of being seasonal and dependent on current and
previous weather conditions such as rain. Open windows are a good
compromise.

SCRATCHING POSTS:
It is advised that cats use any scratching post the
humans may provide. They are very protective of what they think is their property and will object strongly if they catch you sharpening your claws on it. Being sneaky and doing it when they aren't around won't help, as they are
very observant. If you are an outdoor kitty, trees are good.
Sharpening your claws on a human is not recommended.

HUMANS:
Humans have three primary functions: to feed us, to play with
and give attention to us, and to clean the litter box.
It is important to maintain one's Dignity when
around humans so that they will not forget who is the master of
the house. Humans need to know basic rules. They can be taught if
you start early and are consistent.

                  _______________________________________________

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:02:50 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Proposed Psyber-List changes

Walter, Robert, All,

  There is clearly a lot about all this I just don't understand.

  I would find it satisfactory (I think) if there was a way to enter
this List from the Web (as there is now).  But only those subscribed
could do so.  And then that once in the material (i.e. posts) were
presented as they are now.
  I find the Digest quite satisfactory, even beneficial.  Often I pick
up meanings from the posts listed in sequence which I missed in Web
access.
  I am still having trouble managing the Jung List on a purely
 practical level.  It is a little intimidating to check into my mailbox
and have 17 messages flow in.  I also find it harder to follow the
continuity of the messages.  Part of this is just being a 'newbie'.
But possible I'm missing and easier way to handle the flow?  Monday
I missed the announcement of the meeting of a group of which I am
Treasurer.  And today nearly missed a response from the sister of one
of my best friends who is also a writer and with whom I hope to become
better acquainted.
   Walter, you mentioned something about 'folders' (and Robert reminded
me)  Is this a technique only applicable to this (future?) list?
   Hope you can get past the 'all about me' bits and respond to the
'List' possibilities in a way I can understand.

   Thanks,  Nancy

P.S. I may miss the feeling of the 'world having my window' that we
currently fear and enjoy.  An old adolescent fantasy I'd be embarrassed
to recount.
  Watler (???) Walter, didn't you mention the possibility of two Lists?
On public and one more private?

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:39:08 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Proposed Psyber-List changes
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998102113025165@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Nancy,

>    Walter, you mentioned something about 'folders' (and Robert reminded
> me)  Is this a technique only applicable to this (future?) list?
>    Hope you can get past the 'all about me' bits and respond to the
> 'List' possibilities in a way I can understand.

Most likely the software you use will allow you to create folders
and set criteria based on some of the information in the posts to
sort the emails as they come in, and put them into the folder of
your choice.

I have gleaned from your posts that you have used 2 different ways
of getting your mail in Windows, if you send me off list the details
of the program you use in the next few days I'll work it through
step by step with you.  I am on a four day break from work. Now just
rushing off!

The proposed changes wont effect any of this and would be as you
describe.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:34:10 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: feedback
In-Reply-To:  <199810210206.LAA15715@n1.ele.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
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On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 11:06:13 +0900, you, "Dr. W.F. Schmidt"
<wschmidt@ELE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>, wrote:

>Hi: On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:01:26 GMT JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:
>
>>The problem may not be the message or the recipient but the feedback loop.<
>I agree, but what determines the feedback loop? It is the message and it is
>the recipient. If the message does not warrant a feedback, there is no
>loop, if the recipient does not want to feed back, there is no loop.

I guess what I'm saying is that I may read a post and laugh, but not respond.
Did I feed back?  Yes and no.  You're right that the problem does involve the
recipient.

>>I appreciate reasoning and arguing skills, Fritz.  I hold logic and reason
>quite dear; it's the emotional stuff I'm still struggling to learn.<
>Can emotions be learned? A psychologist once told me that people who study
>science (physics especially) are very difficult for him to analyze because
>they escape from their emotions into the safe world of reasoning.

They (I) need a safe place to explore that.  It takes time and energy and
courage.  It can be learned.

>>You seem to put yourself on a pedestal of reason.  I don't feel unworthy of
>discussing things with you because I don't have a PhD.<
>I tried to explain that this is just the situation I tried to avoid. A PhD
>in Physics does not qualify me for a superior point of view on the matters
>discussed in this list. I often find in daily life that Professors and
>alike think that by virtue of their education they are entitled to enjoy
>preferential treatment in a discussion on any topic. That's not my point of
>view. The only advantage I think I have is that the preoccupation with
>science sharpens the analytical mind for whatever it's worth.

I'm sorry I misunderstood.  It sounded a little like, um, hard to explain.  As
if you were saying, "everyone is afraid of me because of my monster intellect,
though I don't want them to be."  Having had similar experiences I should have
been more sensitive to the difficulty in discussing that issue.

>Thank you for making your points,

Thanks for your response.

There were several things that you did not respond to in my last post to you.
Did you not respond because what was said was sufficient, because they raised
your pulse and you did not wish to encourage that, or because you were not sure
how to respond?  Some of each is possible of course.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:48:00 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: feedback
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Fritz and JoAnne, if I may...

>Hi: On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:01:26 GMT JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:
>
>>The problem may not be the message or the recipient but the feedback loop.<
>I agree, but what determines the feedback loop? It is the message and it is
>the recipient. If the message does not warrant a feedback, there is no
>loop, if the recipient does not want to feed back, there is no loop.

Fritz,Isn't not wanting to feedback, feedback?  Just as silence is received
here often when posts are not directly responded to...one's response to the
silence continues the feedback loop, nes pas? maybe not,  and again as you
ask JoAnne, "what determines the feedback loop?"

>>I appreciate reasoning and arguing skills, Fritz.  I hold logic and reason
>quite dear; it's the emotional stuff I'm still struggling to learn.<
>Can emotions be learned? A psychologist once told me that people who study
>science (physics especially) are very difficult for him to analyze because
>they escape from their emotions into the safe world of reasoning.

The other side for me was that I was totally emotional as a young woman and
had to learn the balance which meant exploring the intellectual...in the
Medicine Wheel(one iteration) in the four directions, Emotion is in the
East and Intellect in the West and there is a flow or balance...(North is
Spiritual and South Physical which flows), the learning for me has been to
move in a sort of infinity loop between these juxtapositons...for me it is
about activating all aspect of self...with my illness I have been North
South "challenged"


>>You seem to put yourself on a pedestal of reason.  I don't feel unworthy of
>discussing things with you because I don't have a PhD.<
>I tried to explain that this is just the situation I tried to avoid. A PhD
>in Physics does not qualify me for a superior point of view on the matters
>discussed in this list. I often find in daily life that Professors and
>alike think that by virtue of their education they are entitled to enjoy
>preferential treatment in a discussion on any topic. That's not my point of
>view. The only advantage I think I have is that the preoccupation with
>science sharpens the analytical mind for whatever it's worth.

When I was in the online PhD program at the California Institute for
Integral Studies, the head of my group was a PhD in philosophy with
enormous experience and success and he was totally perplexed by the
"feeling" part of the on-line interaction lamenting once "why does everyone
have to be so emotional", meaning it didn't make analytical sense for him
from his perspective, meaning we were bringing in our individual knowing
and experience which in the world of analytical argument was not correct
form...those of us who were supposidly "feeling" had a very definite
logic...the irony of course was that the PhD was in Transformational
Learning which in it's nth brings all, working to bring self into full
potential...however, my prof didn't know what to do with "us" and
eventually my group died, mostly because he felt (gr) that we were not
playing by the tribe's rules...I was perfectly capable of writing a very
analytical argument which of course is how knowledge is created in that
system, but we were exploring in a larger context which he just couldn't
grok...I appreciated his knowledge however, the program's vision was about
adult learning (in the non liberal arts tradition) which is about bringing
experience into the mix, as well as other modes of knowing, and learning
how that works in the epistemological sense...

Much more to add but have to return to my script which is a wonderfully
balanced process of the intellect and the emotion...
REgards,
Judith


>
>Thank you for making your points,
>
>Fritz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:00:12 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: memorable quotes and ponderings
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi, all,
Not sure who wrote this, I've lost the source by in response to this
>>Cheap feeling is measured in emotional overstatement, in exaggeration
>>bordering
>>on caricature, in avoiding the real question if another question is more
>>heart-tugging.  Laying on the sauce, pulling out all the stops.

I am relating to this...Interesting this "cheap" thing comes up when I am
deeply involved in the creation of a character in the play...what makes the
great actor is exactly the ability to evoke beyond the "cheap" as it
were...a lessor actor goes directly to expressing anger by yelling for
instance, while a deeper experession of that may be to work against the
anger...I always said when I sang it was important to leave room for the
audience to bring themselves in and I had a "cheap" response as an audience
when the singer milked every note, with tears streaming down her face...she
did all my work as an audience and I was left to "watch" not "engage"...
Judith
working to get beyond cheap

>On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:31:11 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:05:37 +0100, you, "Simon G. Trask"
>><simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>,
>>wrote:
>>
>>>A couple of memorable phrases (to my suspect memory, anyway!) from a few
>>>weeks back; it seems to me that both capture something essential
>>>(essence-ial?!) about 'here':
>>>
>>>Stephen spoke of "the constellation of fierce animosity and cheap yet
>>>overbearing feeling" in reference to the Gender War.
>
>N: Would this be when assumptions are challenged with are too important
>to the person's defense system to bear the challenge?
>
>>>
>>>Joanne spoke of "a place where the rules end and the dark or bright edge
>>>begins."
>
>N: Would this be the 'edge of madness' or unconscious in each of us?
>>>
>>>And I was wondering, in a rhetorical kind of way:
>>>
>>>what is the measure of cheap feeling?
>>
>>Cheap feeling is measured in emotional overstatement, in exaggeration
>>bordering
>>on caricature, in avoiding the real question if another question is more
>>heart-tugging.  Laying on the sauce, pulling out all the stops.
>
>N:My brother, Dr. Smith <g> used to teach a course on the difference
>between sentiment and sentimentality.  This sounds to me related to
>is the sort of at which you'all are driving.  (Yes?) I looked over his
>outline one time
>and felt there must be a lot of subjectivity about individual judgements
>on this issue.  I recall reading somewhere about one of the top nazis,
>in charge of the death camps, weeping copiously over the death of his
>canary as an example of sentimentality.  It doesn't seem too cut and
>dried to me.  Yet I have had the experience of seeing a movie or reading
>a story and feeling that the author was deliberately 'trying to pull
>my strings'.  Usually it make me pretty resentful.  I felt somehow that
>author wasn't doing the work to reach deep and touch something authenitic
>in him/herself that then might touch his audience at the same level.
>I guess that is 'cheap feeling' means to me.  I don't like having my
>feeling tampered with purely for someone else's benefit or profit.
>
>  Off and on I keep pondering Walter's reference to this List as Psyche.
>Whose?  The members perhaps.  The Collective as filtered through us.
>(Is that close to your meaning, Walter?)  Psyche is soul, right?  An
>illusive concept for me.  It used to be thought that women didn't have
>a soul.  Men's souls seemed to be feminine.  Does the sould have a
>sense of humor?  Does Jesus?  I have a painting of him with his head
>thrown back laughing fullsomely.  Hard to reconcile with most other
>paintings verbal or visual.
>
>>
>>>what distinguishes a dark edge from a bright edge?
>>
>>In my experience you don't always know.  It's as if you can see a shift in the
>>light before you can decide if it's getting darker or brighter.  Your eyes are
>>adjusting and you are waiting to see, "what next?"
>>
>>-JoAnne
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:00:19 +0900
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. W.F. Schmidt" <wschmidt@ELE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>
Subject:      I love this list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

JoAnne and all,

I am returning to your original post and to your remarks I did not touch on
in my last mail,  seems to be a nested feedback loop (something which at
times creates difficulties in programming in BASIC or alike)

On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:01:26 GMT

Joanne wrote:

>>I sometimes have the feeling that my comments here in Psyber-L fall on deaf
>>ears, no response, I think that Susan Swan filed a similar complaint. I
>>think it has to do with the absence of nonverbal communication.

>I don't.  Or rather, that it has to do with communicating in psyberia as if
>it were a regular verbal communication.  I've felt ignored at times, and
>understood at times, and the wide variety of responses have been purely
>human and natural responses from purely human and natural respondees
>depending on my communications and the environment in which they were
>launched.
It is true that psyberian communication is non-verbal but in the written
format. I understand that there are exchanges on several topics (threads)
and postings of new topics are going on all the same time. With "deaf ears"
I meant to say that I didn't find a resonance (feedback) on the thoughts I
expressed. Now it could be that I as a recipient (of a different
background, cultural differences) am not tuned to detect these resonances.
I am working on this.

>So you pre-empted discussion on a lower level and chose this level first.
You got a reaction.<
Isn't this the first step. If there is silence, I cannot distinguish
between silent acknowledgment and non-achnowledgment due to silence or
absence.

>But getting a reaction is not the same as reaching the
people here.  You may say something that we all feel but do not respond to.<
That's the point, how do you transmit feelings in psyberspace? No signal
can mean, they don't want to reply, their computer is broken, they turned
to r.l. work, they went to sleep etc. While a signal carries a message, no
signal is ambigeous.

>You are increasing your volume because the audience's faces and applause
are not visible to you, as the Ugly American tourist yells repeated
simplifications at the "foreigner" who does not respond in English to him
but may understand him.<
Increase of volume is no answer. We had an unfortunate experience,
recently, too much signal, so the source was switched off.

>There were several things that you did not respond to in my last post to you.
Did you not respond because what was said was sufficient, because they raised
your pulse and you did not wish to encourage that, or because you were not sure
how to respond?  Some of each is possible of course.<
I think this is a good way to show interest and acknowledment. Probably
cooperative silence could be expressed by a short phrase returned to the
sender.

I hope I treated all the aspects of your mail now, if not please point out
what is missing. At present I have to return to the more mundane work on
the behavior of electrons in some material.

Tschuess, as we say in German (a gross distortion of the French "adieu")

FRITZ

____________________________________________________________
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here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:55:28 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: I love this list

FRITZ,

I am enjoying the thoughtful discussion on communication and
silence. I wanted to say I like this:

> Tschuess, as we say in German (a gross distortion of the French
> "adieu")

When you said you were working on picking up on possible
resonance to your posts in other posts and so on, I thought how
hard that must be in a language that is not native to you.  I
immediately wanted to say, write in German, though i know there
would be limitations to that for us all.  But bringing in
*words* like that is wonderful.  I can just see the connection
between the words.  The "a" is dropped ... but where does the
"ess" come from?  Is that a diminutive or a plural?  In Dutch for
example which i have some knowledge of they might do both to a
word.  For example "Groeten" (Greeting) might be used to close a
letter and come out as ...


"Groetjes",

Walter

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:08:59 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: I love this list
In-Reply-To:  <199810220500.OAA29694@n1.ele.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:00:19 +0900, you, "Dr. W.F. Schmidt"
<wschmidt@ELE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>, wrote:

>JoAnne and all,
>
>I am returning to your original post and to your remarks I did not touch on
>in my last mail,  seems to be a nested feedback loop (something which at
>times creates difficulties in programming in BASIC or alike)

Thanks, Fritz.

>On Sun, 18 Oct 1998 15:01:26 GMT
>
>Joanne wrote:
>
>>>I sometimes have the feeling that my comments here in Psyber-L fall on deaf
>>>ears, no response, I think that Susan Swan filed a similar complaint. I
>>>think it has to do with the absence of nonverbal communication.
>
>>I don't.  Or rather, that it has to do with communicating in psyberia as if
>>it were a regular verbal communication.  I've felt ignored at times, and
>>understood at times, and the wide variety of responses have been purely
>>human and natural responses from purely human and natural respondees
>>depending on my communications and the environment in which they were
>>launched.
>It is true that psyberian communication is non-verbal but in the written
>format. I understand that there are exchanges on several topics (threads)
>and postings of new topics are going on all the same time. With "deaf ears"
>I meant to say that I didn't find a resonance (feedback) on the thoughts I
>expressed. Now it could be that I as a recipient (of a different
>background, cultural differences) am not tuned to detect these resonances.
>I am working on this.

It's from both sides; we all need to work on this if we want to increase the
level of communication and trust here.  I need to work on responding more often,
even if it's just (as you say later) a short acknowledgement.

>>So you pre-empted discussion on a lower level and chose this level first.
>You got a reaction.<
>Isn't this the first step. If there is silence, I cannot distinguish
>between silent acknowledgment and non-achnowledgment due to silence or
>absence.

Yes.  Sorry if this sounded harsh; I guess I expected a lower-level discussion
first and then escalation, but that's not necessarily the way everyone works.

>>But getting a reaction is not the same as reaching the
>people here.  You may say something that we all feel but do not respond to.<
>That's the point, how do you transmit feelings in psyberspace? No signal
>can mean, they don't want to reply, their computer is broken, they turned
>to r.l. work, they went to sleep etc. While a signal carries a message, no
>signal is ambigeous.

Yes!  Precisely.  And then we interpret the lack of signal in different ways.

I have an email humor list that goes to hundreds of people.  I have heard from
about six of them.  Now, in that instance, I don't expect feedback, so I'm not
disappointed.  I figure if they don't like it they'll leave, and I don't really
care if they do like it, because not everyone will.  But this is a very
different environment.

It's hard for everyone to respond all the time, in fact it can't be done.  What
would make this place feel warmer would be if at least someone responded all the
time.  And that doesn't always happen.

>>You are increasing your volume because the audience's faces and applause
>are not visible to you, as the Ugly American tourist yells repeated
>simplifications at the "foreigner" who does not respond in English to him
>but may understand him.<
>Increase of volume is no answer. We had an unfortunate experience,
>recently, too much signal, so the source was switched off.

Now that that signal has been switched off, will it be easier to start from a
lower volume level?  Do you think we will be more likely to respond now that the
biggest amplifying (and distorting) feedback loop is gone?

>>There were several things that you did not respond to in my last post to you.
>Did you not respond because what was said was sufficient, because they raised
>your pulse and you did not wish to encourage that, or because you were not sure
>how to respond?  Some of each is possible of course.<
>I think this is a good way to show interest and acknowledment. Probably
>cooperative silence could be expressed by a short phrase returned to the
>sender.
>I hope I treated all the aspects of your mail now, if not please point out
>what is missing. At present I have to return to the more mundane work on
>the behavior of electrons in some material.

I think the things that I felt were left out are now addressed.  Thanks for
making a second run.

>Tschuess, as we say in German (a gross distortion of the French "adieu")

Talk to you again soon.

-JoAnne

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:23:50 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: I love this list

Fritz and JoAnne,

  I certainly want to commend you two on you efforts which are So in the
right direction.
  I had a little trouble following because, Fritz, something happens to the
>s at the beginning of each line of the quotes you use from the other (in this case
JoAnne).  I had a difficult time learning to interpret these in the
beginning, but now am dependent on them to tell who is talking when
(especially in the case of two good Thinkers).
  I Do want to second Walter's comment on the problems entailed in changing
cultures and most especially languages.  I can only admire the courage
it takes to even attempt it.

  Sincerely,

  Nancy

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:51:44 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: memorable quotes and ponderings

On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:00:12 -0400, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:


>
>I am relating to this...Interesting this "cheap" thing comes up when I am
>deeply involved in the creation of a character in the play...what makes the
>great actor is exactly the ability to evoke beyond the "cheap" as it
>were...a lessor actor goes directly to expressing anger by yelling for
>instance, while a deeper experession of that may be to work against the
>anger...I always said when I sang it was important to leave room for the
>audience to bring themselves in and I had a "cheap" response as an audience
>when the singer milked every note, with tears streaming down her face...she
>did all my work as an audience and I was left to "watch" not "engage"...
>Judith
>working to get beyond cheap

N: Guess I was thinking of it more as a 'writer' problem.  And really
wouldn't be pretty impossible for even the greatest actor to bring deep
meaning to a poor script?
  Yet certainly there is great difference in what an actor can bring.  I
think now of what I have seen Richard Burton vs. Orson Wells bring to
Shakespeare.
  I have never really been able to adjust to something about stage plays.
The pacing and set limitations, I think.  Movies seem to flow so much
more clearly at the pace of 'real life'.  (Of course I once dreamed of
my father carrying me over on shoulder away from the ship set of H.M.S.
PInafore.  The price of having a parent who needs himself to be center
stage perhaps.)
  What I remember best about being in plays in school was the wonderful
sense of unity, of being one for all and all for one, being engaged in
the same project.

  Nancy
  Hoping, Judith, you have a wonderful script and that terrific sense of
group unity.

P.S. He didn't want me to take singing lessons.  Music was noisy.

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:50:08 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: memorable quotes and ponderings
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Nancy, I relate to your perspecitve especially because we are such a
visual culture and film is about the visual...

>On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:00:12 -0400, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I am relating to this...Interesting this "cheap" thing comes up when I am
>>deeply involved in the creation of a character in the play...what makes the
>>great actor is exactly the ability to evoke beyond the "cheap" as it
>>were...a lessor actor goes directly to expressing anger by yelling for
>>instance, while a deeper experession of that may be to work against the
>>anger...I always said when I sang it was important to leave room for the
>>audience to bring themselves in and I had a "cheap" response as an audience
>>when the singer milked every note, with tears streaming down her face...she
>>did all my work as an audience and I was left to "watch" not "engage"...
>>Judith
>>working to get beyond cheap
>
>N: Guess I was thinking of it more as a 'writer' problem.  And really
>wouldn't be pretty impossible for even the greatest actor to bring deep
>meaning to a poor script?
J:Often in bringing a script to life on stage the writer doesn't know the
deeper meanings which begin to be evoked when the actors bring life to the
words...but yes poor scripts are challenging

>  Yet certainly there is great difference in what an actor can bring.  I
>think now of what I have seen Richard Burton vs. Orson Wells bring to
>Shakespeare.
>  I have never really been able to adjust to something about stage plays.
>The pacing and set limitations, I think.  Movies seem to flow so much
>more clearly at the pace of 'real life'.
J:The interesting thing about film is that it is a director's medium, the
actors are merely objects to be manipulated and in the editing the director
really tells the story...actors hardly ever know what the final product is
going to be...I recently heard Paul Newman talk about insisting that there
are 2 weeks of rehersal  before he does a film because films are shot out
of sequence...interesting for me film feels less like real life...like tv I
feel I am sitting there watching something...where there are live bodies up
there I feel engaged...
My most thrilling experience in theatre was doing Hamlet with Jerry
Friedman (famous Broadway director, did original production of Hair) anyway
he placed the production in a bombed out amphitheatre in modern dress and
the vision of the play was what adults do to child in the name of
power...the end of the play the curtain call was a montage of all the young
people in the story and only one is alive...this was done with the music
Oliver Stone used in his Vietnam movie, people sat there stunned... one of
the children's matinees at the end the kids fifth and sixth graders jumped
to their feet in the end and cheered...it was stunning...
  (Of course I once dreamed of
>my father carrying me over on shoulder away from the ship set of H.M.S.
>PInafore.  The price of having a parent who needs himself to be center
>stage perhaps.)
>  What I remember best about being in plays in school was the wonderful
>sense of unity, of being one for all and all for one, being engaged in
>the same project.
And it is created again every performance...

>
>  Nancy
>  Hoping, Judith, you have a wonderful script and that terrific sense of
>group unity.
>
>P.S. He didn't want me to take singing lessons.  Music was noisy.

My mother snuck me to lessons, taking the money out of the food budget. And
Yes my father when I came home at 14 to announce I was singing an italian
aria at the spring concert said something like I don't want any gd
screaming d's in this house...
He also wouldn't buy my mother and I an piano until after I had left home
and mother had broken her baby finger and couldn't play anymore...
Coming back to the theatre this time means even more to me because of what
I overcame to get there...Jean Houston says as children we protect our
Daimon untill it is safe to bring it out

Never too late to sing, Nancy
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Oct 1998 05:28:05 PDT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         David Iulian <d_iulian@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: I love this list
Content-Type: text/plain

Walter and all,
I have some questions. Maybe I'm too 'young' here and I missed
something. I don't like to read from archive. I like real people, and
the present make they more real that an archive. When I came in I know
nothing and no one. It is a lent discover of all who are here and are
active.
Now I feel something like 'home' when I enter in my email box and I see
your posts here waiting for me.

Fritz, you wrote:

"With respect to your planning of the future Psyber-L, I shall think in
more detail about your post, but a few hard data which I collected: The
number of subscribed participants has decreased continuously over the
years, we had some semi-announcements of leave quite recently. The
number of active participants is perhapts 20 percent of the total. How
do you want to fill all these different parlors if few people make it to
the main hall and some of them leave right away. The other statistics is
that the major part of post nowadays comes from females of this list,
the males are silent or have left. Robert aired his unease about a
change of the atmosphere in Psyber-L, is it true? All these remarks are
made with no intention of any sort of attack, I am just stating the
facts which you, we have to face."

I learn something early at school: for a firm, the migration of the
personal is a bad thing. Is wrong for the stability of the firm. Here it
isn't a firm, but how influence this migration a list? Is good or bad?
And this migration may be perceive in 2 ways:
-someone enter and then go out in few days without a post;
-someone enter and go out after a year ( or month ), without a post or
no.
These are 2 kind of people. The first I think is insignificant  ( or
not? ). What about the second? What  found here to stay and then go? Why
don't post and stay? For what reason?
Is a problem in the number of the people of a list? I know: many people
means 'audience' ( I don't find another good word now ) or actuality.
Another question: is here a kind of statistic in the meaning of what I
try to say? Maybe you, Walter, know more about this. Is the math  a
'variable' in your studies about cyberspace?

Do you want to change the form of subscription?  When a person came in,
others  'see' this and a sort  'resume' of that person? I think this is
a better way to come in list.  I think is more human, like a smile when
you enter in a room. I don't see Psyber-L like a chaos who tend to
harmonize. I see a community who want to be more and more human by
exchange of words and feelings. I see my monitor or I see you? When I'm
'here' I know that I see you all who are here.
Maybe next week another questions.

Well, excuse my poor English, and see you after the weekend ( I have
access on internet only at work ),

Ps: Just now I'm reading this messagge of Walter, where I find some
lights for my dark mind:

"I am not interesting in quantity apart from a critical mass to make the
process vital and lively.  I am on another list with 4 people and it is
very rewarding and active, and deeply meaningful."

Iulian, trying to understand the world.


______________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:49:47 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: memorable quotes and ponderings

On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:50:08 -0400, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:

>Hi Nancy, I relate to your perspecitve especially because we are such a
>visual culture and film is about the visual...

N: But 'play' and communication of emotions are every much about the tonal
nuances.  In plays so often there pauses and hightened volumn to 'project'.
That is the sort of thing I find distracts me from ability to 'suspend
disbelief'; not to mention being 'live'one suffers with the actor for each
even minor gaff.  I do too much  to embarress myself call it entertainment
to go to a theatre and be embarrassed for others.
>
>>On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:00:12 -0400, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>I am relating to this...Interesting this "cheap" thing comes up when I am
>>>deeply involved in the creation of a character in the play...what makes the
>>>great actor is exactly the ability to evoke beyond the "cheap" as it
>>>were...a lessor actor goes directly to expressing anger by yelling for
>>>instance, while a deeper experession of that may be to work against the
>>>anger...I always said when I sang it was important to leave room for the
>>>audience to bring themselves in and I had a "cheap" response as an audience
>>>when the singer milked every note, with tears streaming down her face...she
>>>did all my work as an audience and I was left to "watch" not "engage"...
>>>Judith
>>>working to get beyond cheap
>>
>>N: Guess I was thinking of it more as a 'writer' problem.  And really
>>wouldn't be pretty impossible for even the greatest actor to bring deep
>>meaning to a poor script?
>J:Often in bringing a script to life on stage the writer doesn't know the
>deeper meanings which begin to be evoked when the actors bring life to the
>words...but yes poor scripts are challenging.

N: Yes.  I can see from the actor's perspective how working straight
through a story line (and with a chance to do it again 'tomorrow') might
be more satisying.  Also many actors, I hear, miss the live audience, the
thrill of knowing its out there, like a large animinal in the dark intent
souly on them.  I can feel the appeal of that.
>
>>  Yet certainly there is great difference in what an actor can bring.  I
>>think now of what I have seen Richard Burton vs. Orson Wells bring to
>>Shakespeare.
>>  I have never really been able to adjust to something about stage plays.
>>The pacing and set limitations, I think.  Movies seem to flow so much
>>more clearly at the pace of 'real life'.
>J:The interesting thing about film is that it is a director's medium, the
>actors are merely objects to be manipulated and in the editing the director
>really tells the story...actors hardly ever know what the final product is
>going to be...I recently heard Paul Newman talk about insisting that there
>are 2 weeks of rehersal  before he does a film because films are shot out
>of sequence...interesting for me film feels less like real life...like tv I
>feel I am sitting there watching something...where there are live bodies up
>there I feel engaged...
>My most thrilling experience in theatre was doing Hamlet with Jerry
>Friedman (famous Broadway director, did original production of Hair) anyway
>he placed the production in a bombed out amphitheatre in modern dress and
>the vision of the play was what adults do to child in the name of
>power...the end of the play the curtain call was a montage of all the young
>people in the story and only one is alive...this was done with the music
>Oliver Stone used in his Vietnam movie, people sat there stunned... one of
>the children's matinees at the end the kids fifth and sixth graders jumped
>to their feet in the end and cheered...it was stunning...

N: Yes.  That sounds like a peak experience.  Sorry I missed it.  Hamlet
is my favorite (made this NP see there could be dignity in indecion.) There
is something about these modern dress, modern scene plays when well done
brings fresh life to old script (something like the short short Halo I
posted here a bit back.)

>  (Of course I once dreamed of
>>my father carrying me over on shoulder away from the ship set of H.M.S.
>>PInafore.  The price of having a parent who needs himself to be center
>>stage perhaps.)
>>  What I remember best about being in plays in school was the wonderful
>>sense of unity, of being one for all and all for one, being engaged in
>>the same project.
>And it is created again every performance...
>
>>
>>  Nancy
>>  Hoping, Judith, you have a wonderful script and that terrific sense of
>>group unity.
>>
>>P.S. He didn't want me to take singing lessons.  Music was noisy.
>
>My mother snuck me to lessons, taking the money out of the food budget.

N: No support there in my family.  I suspected it was the old taboo on
one's 'putting oneself forward' that exists in the fundamentalist Texas
frontier families.

 And
>Yes my father when I came home at 14 to announce I was singing an italian
>aria at the spring concert said something like I don't want any gd
>screaming d's in this house...
>He also wouldn't buy my mother and I an piano until after I had left home
>and mother had broken her baby finger and couldn't play anymore...

N: That sounds almost...I hope it was some sort of synchronicity rather
than sadism.

>Coming back to the theatre this time means even more to me because of what
>I overcame to get there...Jean Houston says as children we protect our
>Daimon untill it is safe to bring it out
>
N: Or at least we try.  I did take singing lessions later.  Found that
learning to control the high notes was great for sinus infections <g>
>Never too late to sing, Nancy
>Judith
>
At least in spirit, Judith

Nancy

>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:43:07 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: memorable quotes and ponderings
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

HI Nancy,


>On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:50:08 -0400, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>
>>Hi Nancy, I relate to your perspecitve especially because we are such a
>>visual culture and film is about the visual...
>
>N: But 'play' and communication of emotions are every much about the tonal
>nuances.  In plays so often there pauses and hightened volumn to 'project'.
>That is the sort of thing I find distracts me from ability to 'suspend
>disbelief'; not to mention being 'live'one suffers with the actor for each
>even minor gaff.  I do too much  to embarress myself call it entertainment
>to go to a theatre and be embarrassed for others.
Interesting...in reading this I wonder if you've ever experienced really
good theatre...also when I have a gafe it doesn't embarrass me at
all...wonder if this is how you would feel if you were up there...would
this be a case of projection? there are realities in being on stage live
and if nothing else we actors have great stories to tell about the time the
door wouldn't open and we had to climb in the window...

>>
>>>On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:00:12 -0400, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>I am relating to this...Interesting this "cheap" thing comes up when I am
>>>>deeply involved in the creation of a character in the play...what makes the
>>>>great actor is exactly the ability to evoke beyond the "cheap" as it
>>>>were...a lessor actor goes directly to expressing anger by yelling for
>>>>instance, while a deeper experession of that may be to work against the
>>>>anger...I always said when I sang it was important to leave room for the
>>>>audience to bring themselves in and I had a "cheap" response as an audience
>>>>when the singer milked every note, with tears streaming down her face...she
>>>>did all my work as an audience and I was left to "watch" not "engage"...
>>>>Judith
>>>>working to get beyond cheap
>>>
>>>N: Guess I was thinking of it more as a 'writer' problem.  And really
>>>wouldn't be pretty impossible for even the greatest actor to bring deep
>>>meaning to a poor script?
>>J:Often in bringing a script to life on stage the writer doesn't know the
>>deeper meanings which begin to be evoked when the actors bring life to the
>>words...but yes poor scripts are challenging.
>
>N: Yes.  I can see from the actor's perspective how working straight
>through a story line (and with a chance to do it again 'tomorrow') might
>be more satisying.  Also many actors, I hear, miss the live audience, the
>thrill of knowing its out there, like a large animinal in the dark intent
>souly on them.  I can feel the appeal of that.

J: On a very real level it is the exchange of energy between the audience
and the actors...a feedback loop which JoAnne mentioned...playing in that
energy is a high...
>>
>>>  Yet certainly there is great difference in what an actor can bring.  I
>>>think now of what I have seen Richard Burton vs. Orson Wells bring to
>>>Shakespeare.
>>>  I have never really been able to adjust to something about stage plays.
>>>The pacing and set limitations, I think.  Movies seem to flow so much
>>>more clearly at the pace of 'real life'.

Just came to me that I may have the same sort of reaction to reading a work
of fiction...tho I love reading it is not very often fiction...and great
lengths of description bore me to tears...I want to see the real
thing...some of this is because I can't visualize what is being written...a
lot of the time I'm just not interested so I can't get into it which may be
some of why the pace and set and gaffs get in your way


>>J:The interesting thing about film is that it is a director's medium, the
>>actors are merely objects to be manipulated and in the editing the director
>>really tells the story...actors hardly ever know what the final product is
>>going to be...I recently heard Paul Newman talk about insisting that there
>>are 2 weeks of rehersal  before he does a film because films are shot out
>>of sequence...interesting for me film feels less like real life...like tv I
>>feel I am sitting there watching something...where there are live bodies up
>>there I feel engaged...
>>My most thrilling experience in theatre was doing Hamlet with Jerry
>>Friedman (famous Broadway director, did original production of Hair) anyway
>>he placed the production in a bombed out amphitheatre in modern dress and
>>the vision of the play was what adults do to child in the name of
>>power...the end of the play the curtain call was a montage of all the young
>>people in the story and only one is alive...this was done with the music
>>Oliver Stone used in his Vietnam movie, people sat there stunned... one of
>>the children's matinees at the end the kids fifth and sixth graders jumped
>>to their feet in the end and cheered...it was stunning...
>
>N: Yes.  That sounds like a peak experience.  Sorry I missed it.  Hamlet
>is my favorite (made this NP see there could be dignity in indecion.) There
>is something about these modern dress, modern scene plays when well done
>brings fresh life to old script (something like the short short Halo I
>posted here a bit back.)
>
>>  (Of course I once dreamed of
>>>my father carrying me over on shoulder away from the ship set of H.M.S.
>>>PInafore.  The price of having a parent who needs himself to be center
>>>stage perhaps.)
>>>  What I remember best about being in plays in school was the wonderful
>>>sense of unity, of being one for all and all for one, being engaged in
>>>the same project.
>>And it is created again every performance...
>>
>>>
>>>  Nancy
>>>  Hoping, Judith, you have a wonderful script and that terrific sense of
>>>group unity.
>>>
>>>P.S. He didn't want me to take singing lessons.  Music was noisy.
>>
>>My mother snuck me to lessons, taking the money out of the food budget.
>
>N: No support there in my family.  I suspected it was the old taboo on
>one's 'putting oneself forward' that exists in the fundamentalist Texas
>frontier families.
>
> And
>>Yes my father when I came home at 14 to announce I was singing an italian
>>aria at the spring concert said something like I don't want any gd
>>screaming d's in this house...
>>He also wouldn't buy my mother and I an piano until after I had left home
>>and mother had broken her baby finger and couldn't play anymore...
>
>N: That sounds almost...I hope it was some sort of synchronicity rather
>than sadism.

J: no it was diabolic...very wounded man who never healed

Off to pray to the acting god...we open in a week egad
Judith
PS sounds like you sing thru your writing
>
>>Coming back to the theatre this time means even more to me because of what
>>I overcame to get there...Jean Houston says as children we protect our
>>Daimon untill it is safe to bring it out
>>
>N: Or at least we try.  I did take singing lessions later.  Found that
>learning to control the high notes was great for sinus infections <g>
>>Never too late to sing, Nancy
>>Judith
>>
>At least in spirit, Judith
>
>Nancy
>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 23 Oct 1998 22:19:56 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: I love this list
In-Reply-To:  <19981023122807.7672.qmail@hotmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

David

Your reflections are interesting, and heartening. Glad you feel "at
home" here.   As soon as i get a chance i will change a couple of
file so that people will be more known to us as they come into
Psyber-L for the first time.  The things you mention about seeing
them come in being more human are exactly the sort of things I have
in mind.

Your English by the way (often written as BTW here on the net) is
fine!  You must work hard to get it to that level.  If occasionally
you think we would benefit from a Rumanian word or phrase, do let us
know.



> I learn something early at school: for a firm, the migration of the
> personal is a bad thing. Is wrong for the stability of the firm. Here it
> isn't a firm, but how influence this migration a list? Is good or bad?
> And this migration may be perceive in 2 ways:
> -someone enter and then go out in few days without a post;
> -someone enter and go out after a year ( or month ), without a post or
> no.
> These are 2 kind of people. The first I think is insignificant  ( or
> not? ). What about the second? What  found here to stay and then go? Why
> don't post and stay? For what reason?

Good questions. I am sure my answers are only one "take" on this and
others may see it differently.   The first group may just be peeping
in, and may not have read the documents about Psyber-L ... then they
get the welcome file and see a post or two (out of context) and
leave.  With the proposed changes they will get a better chance to
orientate to the list, and some of them might even join.  The rest,
who are looking for something else ... they need not concern us too
much.

The second ... I hear all over the net that the ratio of members to
active members is about 10%.  I know I am on many lists as an
occasional reader!  I think it is ok.  I also think that the
proposed Psybernet list might be more for them.  Then there are
those who participate & leave because the interactions here don't
suit them, the process is unpleasant or painful.  I think it is good
if we can maintain an inclusive approach, yet we can't please
everyone!

> Is a problem in the number of the people of a list? I know: many people
> means 'audience' ( I don't find another good word now ) or actuality.
> Another question: is here a kind of statistic in the meaning of what I
> try to say? Maybe you, Walter, know more about this. Is the math  a
> 'variable' in your studies about cyberspace?

The number is not a problem.  What if we grew to 200?  500?  or
reduced down to 10?  We would see differences yet all of it would be
interesting!  The maths variable ... such as the ratio of posters to
lurkers, and subscribers to stayers (the churn factor) is
interesting, but hard to collect so that it is meaningful.  There
are many factors influencing these things, and the data would be
quite hard to collect.  There is nothing set up at present to
collect it.

I am happy enough to read the occasional study others have done, and
also to hear personal anecdotes, which while not scientific, may
carry a lot of meaning.  For example I check the comings and goings
on the list very regularly, and i do see the flow in a way others do
not.  Hence i have an impression of the churn, but no hard data.

The study I am interested in, is the "experiential" learning about
life here on the screen.  It is like playing a sport and studying a
sport.  Both can teach you about the sport in different ways.  A
player will know something that the researcher does not and vice
versa, not the least being how to kick a goal!

(One interesting use of the archives might be to search on the words
experiential  AND Moreno. )

> Do you want to change the form of subscription?  When a person came in,
> others  'see' this and a sort  'resume' of that person? I think this is
> a better way to come in list.  I think is more human, like a smile when
> you enter in a room. I don't see Psyber-L like a chaos who tend to
> harmonize. I see a community who want to be more and more human by
> exchange of words and feelings. I see my monitor or I see you? When I'm
> 'here' I know that I see you all who are here.

That is the change I am proposing ... I'm glad it is mentioned here
so clearly again, and positively.  The other change is having member
only archives, that is a more complex question in the context of our
history and I'd like to hear more about it.

> Well, excuse my poor English, and see you after the weekend ( I have
> access on internet only at work ),

Is that easy enough to use there?  What is your work, is Psyber-L
relevant to it?

> Ps: Just now I'm reading this messagge of Walter, where I find some
> lights for my dark mind:
>
> "I am not interesting in quantity apart from a critical mass to make the
> process vital and lively.  I am on another list with 4 people and it is
> very rewarding and active, and deeply meaningful."

What was the "light" you saw there David?


All for now,


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Oct 1998 15:51:59 -0700
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      hipbone gets a job
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, Friends:

A brief personal note...  As many of you know, I have been tracking the
ways in which the Y2K computer bug is viewed among the "apocalyptically
minded" for some while now, and I recently accepted an offer from The
Arlington Institute in Arlington VA, and will be working for them as a
designer and analyst on their Y2K Project, starting at the end of this
month.  John Petersen, the founder of TAI, has expressed his concerns and
hopes for the Y2K situation in an article, "The Year 2000: Social Chaos or
Social Transformation?":

     http://www.angelfire.com/ca/rhomer/social.html

which will give you a sense of our overall approach.

We will be working towards a comprehensive understanding of the social
impact of the Y2K bug, then putting together educational materials to
encourage practical cooperative approaches to handling whatever specific
problems may arise -- either from the bug itself or from public perceptions
of the bug -- and setting up a network of organizations with related
objectives

I'm afraid this will mean I have less time to follow Psyber-L.  I'm going
to set myself to the NoMail option -- so I'll hopefully still be subscribed
when Walter moves to the new system, and can continue to visit your
discussions all via the archives.  This isn't goodbye, though, so I'm not
going to get into personal messages here for those of you I've talked and
formed friendships with over the years: but I'll be seeing a bit less of
you, and thinking of you from time to time, wondering how you are.

Because yes, Walter, yes: there *is indeed* psyche in cyberspace.

Best regards,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:09:05 -0700
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Y2K
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Charles,

I don't know if you're still connected but a funny thing happened this
morning concerning Y2K. I was out with a fellow I had hired to do a house
inspection as a part of the home buying process and we were discussing
gas vs. wood stoves as there is a wood stove in the house I'm considering
buying. He immediately told me, before he had even seen it, that if I
didn't want the wood stove he would buy it from me; however, he urged me
to have a wood stove because of the "Y2K problem". I didn't immediately
understand what he meant and he proceeded to educate me concening how we
all might experience continual power outages because of cascading
computer failures
and how since this will occur in winter the heat supply throughout the
country could be seriously compromised. He said the wood stoves will be
in great demand and he is buying up as many as possible in order to have
them available to people, etc, etc. He is a former home builder who now
has an energy design company and seemed like a perfectly rational,
un-apocalytic sort of fellow, and I just kind of went - oh. And he said
welcome to Oregon.

Then I came home to your mesaage. Oh.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:20:50 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: hipbone gets a job

Congratulations, Charles.  I know this must be a good thing for you or
you wouldn't have accepted it.
  I'm wondering if this will entail a physical move for your family or
not?

  Nancy
  Pleased to hear news of Charles and his good fortune.

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Oct 1998 19:28:31 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Y2K

On Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:09:05 -0700, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

 He is a former home builder who now
>has an energy design company and seemed like a perfectly rational,
>un-apocalytic sort of fellow, and I just kind of went - oh. And he said
>welcome to Oregon.
>
N: I am left wondering, Cheryl, how you feel now about Y2K.  I must say
I took it less seriously before than after the whole country's pagers
went out a few months ago.  It just happened that I was in desperate
need of a repair person that day and so felt intimately involved when
unable to reach same.

Nancy
Hoping Cleo is as happy as Bear today after a day at the lake.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Oct 1998 16:51:45 -0700
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Y2K
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl, all:

> I don't know if you're still connected

Yes, still connected.  I probably won't actually go "no mail" until the end
of the month, when I physically leave for DC -- but at that point, I won't
have time to be writing explanatory notes to the list, hence my note
earlier today.

> he urged me to have a wood stove because of the "Y2K
> problem". I didn't immediately understand what he meant and he
> proceeded to educate me concening how we all might experience
> continual power outages because of cascading computer failures

I don't think anyone quite knows what to expect as yet, Cheryl: that's one
of the main reasons we're setting up the Y2K Project, to gather a great
deal of information from a variety of sources, and to begin the task of
piecing together just how Y2K glitches *might* impact us.

At the moment there are some pretty pessimistic views afloat: but one of
the major doomsaying web sites, for instance, turns out to be run by a
Fundamentalist theologian (Gary North) who has his own very distinctive far
right theological and political agenda to support.  I frankly think that if
80% of the people who visit and are impressed by his Y2K website knew some
of the other things he believes (eg that the AIDS epidemic in Africa is
God's retribution for immoral living), they'd be a bit more skeptical about
his cries of imminent disaster.

I expect the Y2K Project I'm working for will come up with a range of
scenarios, some of which will be comparatively mild and likely, and some
comparatively fierce and less probable: but which scenario we ultimately
end up *living* will depend on whether we remain ignorant until we panic --
or get educated as to the real scope of the problem, realize we need to
pull together, and begin forming friendships and collaborations at local
levels which can stand us in good stead if the power grid *does* go down
for a day or two...

Denial and panic are the two extremes to avoid, I'm convinced, and a calm
and friendly attitude will help a very great deal.

Best,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:00:06 -0700
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Y2K
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Nancy,

Well, I don't know what I think of this problem. It's not something I
have paid much attention to in practical terms until this morning's
conversation. I'm not the sort of person to think doom and gloom but am I
just being naive is my question to myself right now. I always tend to
think things will work out all right but that may be a function of never
having lived through a war or large disaster, etc. I kind of wince if I
think that radical preparations might be necessary for the upcoming
millenium. Per se 'millenium' means nothing to me - i see it only as a
way of counting numbers that people like to get superstitous about. I
think superstition and hysteria are very closely linked - although the
possibility of our 'computer-operated-world- going kaput is not
superstious as you pointed out re- the beepers. Still, I just don't feel
we are on the edge of catastrophe.

Cheryl

Cleo still perfers the bathroom cabinet

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Oct 1998 23:59:53 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: hipbone gets a job
In-Reply-To:  <l03130301b258091a507d@[207.217.242.16]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Charles,

Very exciting.  I have no sense that you will be gone from here.  I am
pleased you are on the Nomail option, and I will keep you informed of
anything particularly hipbone-ish in our forum.

Designer and Analyst re both words that would lead me to greater heights,
and they fit you to a T.  I am looking forward to hearing from you in those
roles.

I have just downloaded the article you mentioned  by John L. Petersen,
Margaret Wheatley, Myron Kellner-Rogers, will print out and read.


> We will be working towards a comprehensive understanding of the social
> impact of the Y2K bug, then putting together educational materials to
> encourage practical cooperative approaches to handling whatever specific
> problems may arise -- either from the bug itself or from public perceptions
> of the bug -- and setting up a network of organizations with related
> objectives

I'd be happy for you to post announcements and links & progress here in
Psyber-L ~~  It is on topic, particularly the perception of the millennium,
which in so many ways is tied in with the digitalisation of our heritage.
Apart from a change in a few digits on the calendar, we must have the
largest warm-up to an event ever.  What happens when so many people focus
in such a way on something?

> Because yes, Walter, yes: there *is indeed* psyche in cyberspace.

Indeed ... I am really conscious of how non-specific those words are, and
how  *wildly* they can mean different things to us all.  Nancy, I am aware
that you have hanging, unanswered still,  a question about 'psyche' as it
is used here in Psyber-L.  A wonderful question.

Whatever it means, and it means,  all those mysterious things we have
inklings it means, I am sure Charles, that you will be working right there
on the interface of the collective psyche and cyberspace.

Again, all the best to you and your family in this adventure,


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Oct 1998 20:06:14 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: memorable quotes and ponderings

On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:43:07 -0400, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:

>HI Nancy,
>
>
>>On Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:50:08 -0400, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>>N: But 'play' and communication of emotions are very much about the tonal
>>nuances.  In plays so often the pauses and heightened volumn to 'project'.
>>That is the sort of thing I find distracts me from ability to 'suspend
>>disbelief'; not to mention being 'live' one suffers with the actor for each
>>even minor gaffe.  I gaffe enough myself to not be entertained by going
to go to a theatre to be embarrassed for others.
>Interesting...in reading this I wonder if you've ever experienced really
>good theatre...

N: Well, yes.  I think so.  I was raised in Chicago.  And there is good
theatre on TV.  Still you make a very valid point.  I now live in a rather
small town where most of the theatre is amateur.  This definitely does
make a big difference.

also when I have a gafe it doesn't embarrass me at
>all...

N: I possibly I would not feel yours.  In fact I be totally oblivious
to them!  Certainly I have seen performers
laugh at themselves in such a way that it eased the audience.  Yet this
is not a technique which can so well be employed in a play without
breaking the ...mood (?) flow (?)

>wonder if this is how you would feel if you were up there...would
>this be a case of projection?

N: Possibly.  With the amateur performances I've seen in recent years (not
to mention painful performances when my kids were in school) I would be
inclined to say 'projective identification'.  You are clearly on the
right track with this perception.  I would only question the suggestion
that what I am feeling (in memory) is so far removed from the 'reality of
the situations' to which I elude.
there are realities in being on stage live
>and if nothing else we actors have great stories to tell about the time the
>door wouldn't open and we had to climb in the window...

N: I hope someday you will write book about these incidents, for I am
sure it would entertain.
  I don't want to belabor a point or in anyway negate any others enjoyment
of something I don't often elect.  But the distinction I am trying to make has
an analogue in Speach making.  That is the difference between listening
to 'oratory' as opposed to a 'talk'.  The first seems artificial to me
while the second seems natural.  It is the same for me between 'stage'
and 'screen'.
  This doesn't mean that I don't see how an actor might get a lot more
satisfaction from a stage performance as opposed to screen.  It is a
little like a craft as opposed to assembly line work.  One can see a
performance through from beginning to end.  I must say I hadn't fully
appeciated this distinction until you pointed it out recently regarding
directors and editing of film.
   Fortunately for the survival of stage as an art for there are yet those
who do not share my feelings.

   Nancy
   Always glad when others have found a satisfying outlet for their
creative talents.



>
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:00:12 -0400, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I am relating to this...Interesting this "cheap" thing comes up when I am
>>>>>deeply involved in the creation of a character in the play...what makes the
>>>>>great actor is exactly the ability to evoke beyond the "cheap" as it
>>>>>were...a lessor actor goes directly to expressing anger by yelling for
>>>>>instance, while a deeper experession of that may be to work against the
>>>>>anger...I always said when I sang it was important to leave room for the
>>>>>audience to bring themselves in and I had a "cheap" response as an audience
>>>>>when the singer milked every note, with tears streaming down her face...she
>>>>>did all my work as an audience and I was left to "watch" not "engage"...
>>>>>Judith
>>>>>working to get beyond cheap
>>>>
>>>>N: Guess I was thinking of it more as a 'writer' problem.  And really
>>>>wouldn't be pretty impossible for even the greatest actor to bring deep
>>>>meaning to a poor script?
>>>J:Often in bringing a script to life on stage the writer doesn't know the
>>>deeper meanings which begin to be evoked when the actors bring life to the
>>>words...but yes poor scripts are challenging.
>>
>>N: Yes.  I can see from the actor's perspective how working straight
>>through a story line (and with a chance to do it again 'tomorrow') might
>>be more satisying.  Also many actors, I hear, miss the live audience, the
>>thrill of knowing its out there, like a large animinal in the dark intent
>>souly on them.  I can feel the appeal of that.
>
>J: On a very real level it is the exchange of energy between the audience
>and the actors...a feedback loop which JoAnne mentioned...playing in that
>energy is a high...
>>>
>>>>  Yet certainly there is great difference in what an actor can bring.  I
>>>>think now of what I have seen Richard Burton vs. Orson Wells bring to
>>>>Shakespeare.
>>>>  I have never really been able to adjust to something about stage plays.
>>>>The pacing and set limitations, I think.  Movies seem to flow so much
>>>>more clearly at the pace of 'real life'.
>
>Just came to me that I may have the same sort of reaction to reading a work
>of fiction...tho I love reading it is not very often fiction...and great
>lengths of description bore me to tears...I want to see the real
>thing...some of this is because I can't visualize what is being written...a
>lot of the time I'm just not interested so I can't get into it which may be
>some of why the pace and set and gaffs get in your way
>
>
>>>J:The interesting thing about film is that it is a director's medium, the
>>>actors are merely objects to be manipulated and in the editing the director
>>>really tells the story...actors hardly ever know what the final product is
>>>going to be...I recently heard Paul Newman talk about insisting that there
>>>are 2 weeks of rehersal  before he does a film because films are shot out
>>>of sequence...interesting for me film feels less like real life...like tv I
>>>feel I am sitting there watching something...where there are live bodies up
>>>there I feel engaged...
>>>My most thrilling experience in theatre was doing Hamlet with Jerry
>>>Friedman (famous Broadway director, did original production of Hair) anyway
>>>he placed the production in a bombed out amphitheatre in modern dress and
>>>the vision of the play was what adults do to child in the name of
>>>power...the end of the play the curtain call was a montage of all the young
>>>people in the story and only one is alive...this was done with the music
>>>Oliver Stone used in his Vietnam movie, people sat there stunned... one of
>>>the children's matinees at the end the kids fifth and sixth graders jumped
>>>to their feet in the end and cheered...it was stunning...
>>
>>N: Yes.  That sounds like a peak experience.  Sorry I missed it.  Hamlet
>>is my favorite (made this NP see there could be dignity in indecion.) There
>>is something about these modern dress, modern scene plays when well done
>>brings fresh life to old script (something like the short short Halo I
>>posted here a bit back.)
>>
>>>  (Of course I once dreamed of
>>>>my father carrying me over on shoulder away from the ship set of H.M.S.
>>>>PInafore.  The price of having a parent who needs himself to be center
>>>>stage perhaps.)
>>>>  What I remember best about being in plays in school was the wonderful
>>>>sense of unity, of being one for all and all for one, being engaged in
>>>>the same project.
>>>And it is created again every performance...
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Nancy
>>>>  Hoping, Judith, you have a wonderful script and that terrific sense of
>>>>group unity.
>>>>
>>>>P.S. He didn't want me to take singing lessons.  Music was noisy.
>>>
>>>My mother snuck me to lessons, taking the money out of the food budget.
>>
>>N: No support there in my family.  I suspected it was the old taboo on
>>one's 'putting oneself forward' that exists in the fundamentalist Texas
>>frontier families.
>>
>> And
>>>Yes my father when I came home at 14 to announce I was singing an italian
>>>aria at the spring concert said something like I don't want any gd
>>>screaming d's in this house...
>>>He also wouldn't buy my mother and I an piano until after I had left home
>>>and mother had broken her baby finger and couldn't play anymore...
>>
>>N: That sounds almost...I hope it was some sort of synchronicity rather
>>than sadism.
>
>J: no it was diabolic...very wounded man who never healed
>
>Off to pray to the acting god...we open in a week egad
>Judith
>PS sounds like you sing thru your writing
>>
>>>Coming back to the theatre this time means even more to me because of what
>>>I overcame to get there...Jean Houston says as children we protect our
>>>Daimon untill it is safe to bring it out
>>>
>>N: Or at least we try.  I did take singing lessions later.  Found that
>>learning to control the high notes was great for sinus infections <g>
>>>Never too late to sing, Nancy
>>>Judith
>>>
>>At least in spirit, Judith
>>
>>Nancy
>>
>>>____________________________________________________________
>>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>>
>>>
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:41:15 +0900
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. W.F. Schmidt" <wschmidt@ELE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>
Subject:      Y2K
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

Hi Charles and all,

congrats to Charles for the new assignment. But I gather from the
description that it will end with the arrival of 2100. Anyway, your
preoccupation with the glass bead tale qualifies you to tackle this
problem, too. Perhaps you will be promoted to "master of the glass bead
game" (in Hesse's terms), afterwards.

I resonante with Cherryl's thoughts:
>Per se 'millenium' means nothing to me - i see it only as a
way of counting numbers that people like to get superstitous about. I
think superstition and hysteria are very closely linked - although the
possibility of our 'computer-operated-world- going kaput is not
superstious as you pointed out re- the beepers. Still, I just don't feel
we are on the edge of catastrophe.<

Walter writes:
>Apart from a change in a few digits on the calendar, we must have the
largest warm-up to an event ever.  What happens when so many people focus
in such a way on something?<

Well, in lack of other catastrophic events of a superlarge scale, the media
grab this opportunity to fill their pages and to attract the public.
Furthermore there have been confined power breakdowns for several days in
the US in areas where blizzards or hurricanes struck. So some experience
exists, if the computer guys cannot remedy the problem in time.
Or are we hoping for a self fulfilling prophecy?

Yours sceptically
FRITZ

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Oct 1998 02:17:13 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: feedback
In-Reply-To:  <199810210206.LAA15715@n1.ele.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Fritz, JoAnne, Judith others who have been pondering these things...

Here is a quote from one of my favorite novelists, which I thought captured
something pertinent and a truth, which of course can't be taken literally.


It is from a speech called ~ A Rake at Reading ~ to the University of
Manitoba in Winnipeg, 1980


"Another life means other reading.  You might ask: Have the books you have
read done anything to make you whatever it is you are? Of course they have,
but that cuts two ways, because when you read a book, you are at least half
the totality of that experience; the reader makes something fresh of
whatever it is he [or she] reads.  A book is renewed every time it finds a
perceptive reader. If the books I have talked of have made me, in part,
what ever I have bought to them made something individual of them.  "

               Robertson Davies,  The Merry Heart,  Viking 1996



Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Oct 1998 02:17:21 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Wedding
In-Reply-To:  <39a2f184.511843962@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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All,

Our wedding is three weeks away.  Obviously it is much on my mind... not
only the practical details but what marriage means and what our marriage
means to us.

One of the things we are doing is putting together a booklet, anthology of
short quotes, poems, sayings original or found, about Love & Life.   The
booklets will be used as a place card at the wedding breakfast (dinner).

An Invitation.
I have talked it over with Kate and we thought it would be enriching and
just right to have items in the booklet from people here in Psyber-L who
wished to be included.  Please send us an item (in private email) with you
postal address.  We will need them at least one week beforehand, say 4
November.  We will post you a copy of the Anthology.  I will not be putting
it on the net, as some of the guests might feel unsettled by that idea.


Looking forward to the transformations ahead!


Walter





__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Oct 1998 22:35:07 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Y2K

On Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:00:06 -0700, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

 I always tend to
>think things will work out all right...don't feel
>we are on the edge of catastrophe.
>
Yes.  Me, too, Cheryl (except when it comes to personal issues! *G*)

Nancy
with a comforting stroke for Cleo
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 24 Oct 1998 22:44:55 -0400
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace

On Sat, 24 Oct 1998 23:59:53 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:

>
>> Because yes, Walter, yes: there *is indeed* psyche in cyberspace.
>
>Indeed ... I am really conscious of how non-specific those words are, and
>how  *wildly* they can mean different things to us all.  Nancy, I am aware
>that you have hanging, unanswered still,  a question about 'psyche' as it
>is used here in Psyber-L.  A wonderful question.

N: Yes.  Charles' mention reminded me also and made me realize that I
had probably been unclear.

  I have no doubts about psyche in cyberspace.  What I was fumblingly
try to grapple with was a suggestion I 'supposed' in an earlier post
from you about Psyche in cyberspace.  That is if there was any way for
us to examine, discuss or enact the psychodrama of Psyche and Eros with
the p/Psyche as exhibited here on the list.  It just got too complex for
me.

>
>Whatever it means, and it means,  all those mysterious things we have
>inklings it means, I am sure Charles, that you will be working right there
>on the interface of the collective psyche and cyberspace.
>

>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Oct 1998 15:03:58 -0600
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Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: hipbone gets a job
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Charles,

Congratulations on the job.  I look forward to learning more from you.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 25 Oct 1998 23:14:18 -0500
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Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: hipbone gets a job
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

All the best Charles...Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Oct 1998 18:03:35 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      my mom
In-Reply-To:  <v01550104b25960768c6f@[207.54.160.148]>
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Just a note to let you all know my mother went in the hospital on Thursday
evening.  She's had a stroke and heart attack.  Both seem to have been
relatively mild.  She has some weakness of the left arm and a little with the
left leg, and a little facial asymmetry, but these seem to be improving.

Anyway, if I drop out of a conversation or seem distracted you will know why.

Thanks
JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:23:58 -0500
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Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: my mom

Dear JoAnne,
  I'm sorry to hear about your mom, yet I'm comforted to remember the good
time you had together on July 4th and it sounds as if her prognosis is
generally good.
  Keep us posted.  We'll be thinking about you.

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:02:20 +0900
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Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Dr. W.F. Schmidt" <wschmidt@ELE.ENG.OSAKA-U.AC.JP>
Subject:      my mom
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-2022-jp

JoAnne,

best wishes for a speedy recovery

FRITZ

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:06:00 -0500
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: my mom
In-Reply-To:  <363fa576.337209062@mail.digex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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JoAnne

   Sorry to hear about your Mom. I'll say some prayers that she'll be all
right. Take care of yourself.

   Janell


At 06:03 PM 10/26/98 GMT, you wrote:
>Just a note to let you all know my mother went in the hospital on Thursday
>evening.  She's had a stroke and heart attack.  Both seem to have been
>relatively mild.  She has some weakness of the left arm and a little with the
>left leg, and a little facial asymmetry, but these seem to be improving.
>
>Anyway, if I drop out of a conversation or seem distracted you will know why.
>
>Thanks
>JoAnne
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Oct 1998 03:07:41 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: my mom
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19981026220600.008644c0@philly.infi.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Dear JoAnne,

Adding my best wishes for you and your mother.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Oct 1998 23:01:03 -0500
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: hipbone gets a job
In-Reply-To:  <3633923E.2FC6@sk.sympatico.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Charles, all,

...took me by surprise! Is the long range vision for Glass Bead Games to
continue to be your principle commitment even as it goes on a kmind of
hiatus?

***

I'm hoping the Y2k thing gets muddled through. I read the 'position paper'
and have but one comment: the hoped for increase in consciousness has to
come from somewhere.

That said, I will now go stick my head in the sand, again. :-)

***

I'm most intrigued by my not knowing exactly what you'll be doing as a
designer. The whole conundrum of this problem is wrapped up in the
balancing act between trying to fix the glitch and trying to address the
consequences of it not being completed fixed.

***

Anyway, a surprising turnabout for you, but then turning is what's it's all
about, yes?

...your interesting life continues...

***

hopeful wishes headed your way,

Stephen

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 26 Oct 1998 23:03:10 -0500
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: my mom
In-Reply-To:  <363fa576.337209062@mail.digex.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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JoAnne,

Your mom will be in my prayers. I hope her recovery is rapid and full.

What kind of lady is she? What's the neatest aspect you'd tell nosy me?

***

sincerely,

Stephen

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:07:11 GMT
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998102422445626@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Nancy, all,

>   I have no doubts about psyche in cyberspace.  What I was fumblingly
> try to grapple with was a suggestion I 'supposed' in an earlier post
> from you about Psyche in cyberspace.  That is if there was any way for
> us to examine, discuss or enact the psychodrama of Psyche and Eros with
> the p/Psyche as exhibited here on the list.  It just got too complex for
> me.


Nancy, I think your approach to the psychodrama here is wonderful.  It is
overwhelming, complex, unfinished and perhaps unworkable ... yet I have a
sense of still being in the drama.  I think your innitiation was a powerful
step.  As a backdrop to our discussions I think of the story of Psyche and
Eros.  I think of th role you cast me in as the Tower.  I read Robert
Johnson's She, and pay particular attention to the Tower and the ants of
course as the keep crawling with ant consciousness over the screens of
Psyber-L  (watch them come! they will be here again no doubt!)  I have
started on Neumann's book.  I'm still here with it!

I am the Tower and so I love Structure and Tradition ... and the free
flowing ... breath ... of the sort of drama the Little Lamp flows through
here with is ... on one level ... anathema!  But what would one expect from
the Tower?

Moreno's psychodrama had structure plus++, five essential elements and
three phases!  Years of training.  Specialised jargon.

Nancy's drama here has but a wee Little Lamp to guide us and ... it becomes
overwhelming.

* Let me add a little structure*  ... that we allow ourselves a good time,
in a relaxed and unobrtusive way,  to follow through your initiatives of
thinking about the myth of Eros and Psyche, and that we breathe life into
it here.  I think Anita bought it up long ago too, and connected it with
Hillman's Myth of Analysis (which also relies on the E&P myth).  Stephen
has suggested we read "She" together.  Let it be enough that this is
something that is ongoing here.  I think it is something you have initiated
Nancy so you might like to say something more about it ... I could mention
it in the welcome file for new people.  How should I put that?  Have you
let this all go?

We might be establishing a new 'form' that will work in cs.  The form where
from unspecified time to unspecified time we have a Myth of Psyber-L.  The
back drop myth.  As with all 'forms' there can be traditions that emerge
... as you perhaps have started ... MythMover= one who takes on a role in
the drama (Little Lamp) and from the role guides and reminds us of our
mythic contexts.  Perhaps I am doing that now as Tower?  Perhaps from here
on another character from the Myth will need to move us?  Or shall Ireally
Tower away and make a *List of Instructions*? (NO! I hear the cry!)

~~~

More musings...

I think of Psyber-L as a drama of the psyche in cyberspace ... all of it!
I guess many lists forums, communities are that in some way ... this one
has the added dimension of it being a stated aim to learn about the psyche
here and to share that learning.

So what do I mean by 'drama' here ...  I use it metaphorically of course,
and with utter respect for Psyber-L and drama.  I see us on a 'stage' of
sorts or in a workshop with an action space.  I see us bringing to light
and heightening moments of life.  I see the tensions in the stories and the
climax and resolutions.

Shakespeare could say the world was a stage, yet cyberspace I think is
more so as here we can step on and off in a way the world stage will not
allow.

To do a psychodrama in a mailing list is not possible ... at least in the
traditional sense of the word Moreno used.  I think we can devise 'forms'
that facilitate our process (as we might be doing here) ... the most
startling of those i think is Charles's HipBone Glass Bead Games.  I think
there we have a form that is flexible & can be used for the equivalent in
cs of a psychodrama.  The GBG uses at its *core* one of the most basic
elements of the net:  links.

~~~

I love the title of this post.  Long live 'Psyche in cyberspace'


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Oct 1998 00:17:51 -0500
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: my mom
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

JoAnne,
Sending healing thots your way...
love,
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Oct 1998 06:40:03 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: my mom
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JoAnne,

Give your Mom a kiss and hug from me.  Tell her I winked as well.  I'll
pray in my way for her.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Oct 1998 05:43:15 PST
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         David Iulian <d_iulian@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: I love this list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Walter, you wrote:
>"I am not interesting in quantity apart from a critical mass to make
the process vital and lively.  I am on another list with 4 people and it
is very rewarding and active, and deeply meaningful."

>Ps: Just now I'm reading this message of Walter, where I find some
>lights for my dark mind:

>What was the "light" you saw there David?

Somewhere in my post I was asked about the relation 'number of people in
list - activity of list' (or my 'not very happy' word:'audience'). Your
paragraph was a 'just in time' response.

>Is that easy enough to use there?  What is your work, is Psyber-L
relevant to it?

I work in a chemical firm. I am programmer on the computer in the
financial compartment. I think I can say that I work hard (sometimes 12
- 16 hours/day). When I finish my work I can 'enter' here.
At first time I searched something about Internet and his impact on
humans. In East Europe (except Poland, Hungary, and Czech) such as:
Romania, Bulgaria… the Internet is really new and for many peoples
something strange.
At the beginning (somewhere in 1990?) I read 'Neuromancer' of William
Gibson. At that time was something cool for my. I saw in cyberspace a
new kind of being; or a new kind of 'reality'. I don't know, maybe I say
foolishness, I believe that Internet can give dependence.
And than I discovered the 'relations'. Maybe the net isn't another
reality, maybe is extinction of reality and of ours senses. I see here
in the net a provocation for our senses.
And I can't see here only advantages. (I'm not an optimist)

So, Psyber-L isn't relevant for my work. Is relevant for my life, for my
future life. I try to discover what is next to my limits. This is a kind
of learning by transcending the limits that define me.

Iulian.


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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:02:25 -0500
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace

On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 04:07:11 GMT, Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ> wrote:

>Nancy, all,
>
>>   I have no doubts about psyche in cyberspace.  What I was fumblingly
>> try to grapple with was a suggestion I 'supposed' in an earlier post
>> from you about Psyche in cyberspace.  That is if there was any way for
>> us to examine, discuss or enact the psychodrama of Psyche and Eros with
>> the p/Psyche as exhibited here on the list.  It just got too complex for
>> me.
>
>
>Nancy, I think your approach to the psychodrama here is wonderful.  It is
>overwhelming, complex, unfinished and perhaps unworkable ... yet I have a
>sense of still being in the drama.  I think your innitiation was a powerful
>step.  As a backdrop to our discussions I think of the story of Psyche and
>Eros.  I think of th role you cast me in as the Tower.  I read Robert
>Johnson's She, and pay particular attention to the Tower and the ants of
>course as the keep crawling with ant consciousness over the screens of
>Psyber-L  (watch them come! they will be here again no doubt!)  I have
>started on Neumann's book.  I'm still here with it!

N: You will find 'tower' listed in the index.  To says you might also want
to play the 'reeds' just to give your own opposites more expression.  I
suppose the reeds too might fear little lamp as the scarcrow feared the
witch's fire...
>
>I am the Tower and so I love Structure and Tradition ... and the free
>flowing ... breath ... of the sort of drama the Little Lamp flows through
>here with is ... on one level ... anathema!  But what would one expect from
>the Tower?

N: I'm wondering who built you, Tower, and how much you partake of the
the values of your inhabitants.  Why it is you seem to side with Psyche
over Aphrodite.
>
>Moreno's psychodrama had structure plus++, five essential elements and
>three phases!  Years of training.  Specialised jargon.
>
>Nancy's drama here has but a wee Little Lamp to guide us and ... it becomes
>overwhelming.
>
>* Let me add a little structure*  ... that we allow ourselves a good time,
>in a relaxed and unobrtusive way,  to follow through your initiatives of
>thinking about the myth of Eros and Psyche, and that we breathe life into
>it here.  I think Anita bought it up long ago too, and connected it with
>Hillman's Myth of Analysis (which also relies on the E&P myth).  Stephen
>has suggested we read "She" together.  Let it be enough that this is
>something that is ongoing here.  I think it is something you have initiated
>Nancy so you might like to say something more about it ... I could mention
>it in the welcome file for new people.  How should I put that?  Have you
>let this all go?
>
N: As I think I mentioned I have taken on several part-time projects that will
for a little time have to come first.
   As it has come to me in odd moments my thoughts have been something like
this...We have so few roles cast...I want to look back and simply ask
questions...Who is this Father that would sacrifice his daughter out of fear
of the Goddess.  And Element of the Patriarchy.  What is his motive?  Sacrifice
the one for the many? (to quote Star Trek)  (Remembering the Iphigenia story)
How does he square this with his role of 'protector'?  Is he still with us?
Is soul still so trustingly naive?  That's where I am with it all right now.
Having time only to wonder.

>We might be establishing a new 'form' that will work in cs.  The form where
>from unspecified time to unspecified time we have a Myth of Psyber-L.  The
>back drop myth.  As with all 'forms' there can be traditions that emerge
>... as you perhaps have started ... MythMover= one who takes on a role in
>the drama (Little Lamp) and from the role guides and reminds us of our
>mythic contexts.  Perhaps I am doing that now as Tower?  Perhaps from here
>on another character from the Myth will need to move us?  Or shall Ireally
>Tower away and make a *List of Instructions*? (NO! I hear the cry!)
>
>~~~
>
>More musings...
>
>I think of Psyber-L as a drama of the psyche in cyberspace ... all of it!
>I guess many lists forums, communities are that in some way ... this one
>has the added dimension of it being a stated aim to learn about the psyche
>here and to share that learning.
>
>So what do I mean by 'drama' here ...  I use it metaphorically of course,
>and with utter respect for Psyber-L and drama.  I see us on a 'stage' of
>sorts or in a workshop with an action space.  I see us bringing to light
>and heightening moments of life.  I see the tensions in the stories and the
>climax and resolutions.
>
>Shakespeare could say the world was a stage, yet cyberspace I think is
>more so as here we can step on and off in a way the world stage will not
>allow.
>
>To do a psychodrama in a mailing list is not possible ... at least in the
>traditional sense of the word Moreno used.  I think we can devise 'forms'
>that facilitate our process (as we might be doing here) ... the most
>startling of those i think is Charles's HipBone Glass Bead Games.  I think
>there we have a form that is flexible & can be used for the equivalent in
>cs of a psychodrama.  The GBG uses at its *core* one of the most basic
>elements of the net:  links.
>
>~~~
>
>I love the title of this post.  Long live 'Psyche in cyberspace'
>
>
>Walter
>
Best each and every one,
Nancy
More hastily than she would wish.
 >__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:00:43 -0800
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      My mom
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne,
You and your mom are in my thoughts and prayers. It's good to hear the
prognosis is positive.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Oct 1998 08:09:23 -0800
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Romania
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Iulian,
My paternal grandmother was from Romania - she came to this country in
1918 or 1919 - my paternal grandfather was from Hungary - I think they
met on the boat over here although I am not sure. We still have relatives
in both countries - my grandmother's family (maiden) name was Kiros - is
this a common name there - have you ever met anyone with that name - just
wondering. I grew up in a Romanian neighborhood in Illinois with many
little old ladies in babushkas at the market. My father understands the
Romanain language but we were never taught it. There was a real desire in
the generational family to be "american".

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:31:26 PST
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         David Iulian <d_iulian@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Romania
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

>Iulian,
>My paternal grandmother was from Romania - she came to this country in
>1918 or 1919 - my paternal grandfather was from Hungary - I think they
>met on the boat over here although I am not sure. We still have
relatives
>in both countries - my grandmother's family (maiden) name was Kiros -
is
>this a common name there - have you ever met anyone with that name -
just
>wondering. I grew up in a Romanian neighborhood in Illinois with many
>little old ladies in babushkas at the market. My father understands the
>Romanain language but we were never taught it. There was a real desire
in
>the generational family to be "american".

Hi Cheryl,

This is a real desire of almost all the romanians who leave the country.
A sad reality.

Anyway, I'm glad to read this message. Now we are 'relatives'.

All the best to you and your cat.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:31:55 PST
Reply-To:     No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       No title defined <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         David Iulian <d_iulian@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Romania
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

>Iulian,
>My paternal grandmother was from Romania - she came to this country in
>1918 or 1919 - my paternal grandfather was from Hungary - I think they
>met on the boat over here although I am not sure. We still have
relatives
>in both countries - my grandmother's family (maiden) name was Kiros -
is
>this a common name there - have you ever met anyone with that name -
just
>wondering. I grew up in a Romanian neighborhood in Illinois with many
>little old ladies in babushkas at the market. My father understands the
>Romanain language but we were never taught it. There was a real desire
in
>the generational family to be "american".

Hi Cheryl,

This is a real desire of almost all the romanians who leave the country.
A sad reality.

Anyway, I'm glad to read this message. Now we are 'relatives'.

Iulian :)



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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Oct 1998 14:56:57 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      = Changes to Psyber-L =
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Friends,


I have made two changes to Psyber-L.


1.  New subscribers are to write to me before they become
members. I will now be able to introduce each new person more
fully as they arrive.


2.  The archives are member only.


The most important files associated with this list have been
updated and there are some more to do, also the Web site needs
some updating to reflect these changes.  I am still testing that
it all works as it should.

Thanks to all who participated in the discussions about these
matters.


Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Oct 1998 09:12:37 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Psyber-L Changes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,
A couple of questions regarding the changes. Since you will be
introducing people to the list, does this mean that you will become once
again a "facilitator"? Do you see yourself as a "filter"? Do you have
some criteria for someone not being allowed to join? I know I am coming
into this discussion late and am rather sure that I will not oppose
anything that gets reconfigured but I'm curious - I don't really know
what difference these changes will make. Could you tell me a little more
about what you're thinking? I know you've said many times that the
introduction to the list is so important here - could you elaborate?

Thanks.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Oct 1998 09:17:43 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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All,

I was just thinking a little about this idea of psyche in csyberspace and
I began to wonder - is it the same "psyche" as that which manifests f2f
or is it a twin, a shadow, a holgram, a sibling, or clone psyche? I can't
imagine that it would be "exactly the same" phenomena but that it would
have a rather different energetic pattern. Does anyone understand what
I'm getting at?

Puzzled,

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Oct 1998 11:13:42 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Changes

Yes, Walter, I want to add my concerns to Cheryl's.  My primary one is that
online I prefer not to give 'vital statistics'.  I wish to be taken for/by
what I present.  Jung List's introduction appears to want to include who/what/
where you are.  But Robert assures me that this is not really the case and
that to 'jump right in' is the best way.

  For your consideration,

  Nancy
  (Filters still working great!)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:22:19 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber Changes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Nancy, Walter, all

Based on Nancy's response I realize I may not be making myself clear. The
Introduction I referred to is the one Walter writes on the Psyber-L home
page introducing the list. I realize I was talking about two different
introductions at the same time - the one that an incoming participant
will make to Walter and then he to us and also the one he writes as the
"portal" to the list. So I really have two different kinds of questions.
Why do you place so much emphasis on the introduction on the home page
Walter? And then my other questions are regarding your role as "filter"
(if that's how you see it).

Hope this is clearer.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:12:01 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <363B4637.167E@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl:

    I understand what you mean, in fact initially that was one of the
reasons that I was so slow to participate in some of the discussions. In my
life (and work) I rely heavily on the non verbal and other cues that I pick
up in f2f discussions that can't possibly be here in cyberspace, and
therefore I was reluctant to take a risk and participate to any real depth.
 My feeling of comfort took a while to develop and after it did I was able
to participate with some degree of comfort.

  Puzzled at times.

     Janell

At 09:17 AM 10/31/98 -0800, you wrote:
>All,
>
>I was just thinking a little about this idea of psyche in csyberspace and
>I began to wonder - is it the same "psyche" as that which manifests f2f
>or is it a twin, a shadow, a holgram, a sibling, or clone psyche? I can't
>imagine that it would be "exactly the same" phenomena but that it would
>have a rather different energetic pattern. Does anyone understand what
>I'm getting at?
>
>Puzzled,
>
>Cheryl
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:41:51 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace

Hi Cheryl,
   I bet there aren't any definitive answers, so let's puzzle together a
 bit.
   As I understand it psyche means soul (whatever the heck 'soul' means!)
  If the 'eyes are the windows of the soul', then perhaps the monitor is the
 window to some sort of Collective Soul out there in the world, or on
 Psyber-L both the soul of each of us in this community as well as some
 sort of Collective Soul of this particular community.
   I guess that's where we start to touch on the Anima Munde (sp?) And
 actually I'm not sure I want to touch on the Anima Munde, never having
 gained great comfort with the concept (Mother Complex, wake up and get
 conscious!)  But I guess maybe that may be what I refer to as a Collective
 Soul.
   Any Jung scholars out there who want to enlighten us in simple sentences
 using words of one syllybull?

   Nancy
   Who has been thinking of you All fondly this week.



On Sat, 31 Oct 1998 09:17:43 -0800, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

>All,
>
>I was just thinking a little about this idea of psyche in csyberspace and
>I began to wonder - is it the same "psyche" as that which manifests f2f
>or is it a twin, a shadow, a holgram, a sibling, or clone psyche? I can't
>imagine that it would be "exactly the same" phenomena but that it would
>have a rather different energetic pattern. Does anyone understand what
>I'm getting at?
>
>Puzzled,
>
>Cheryl
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 31 Oct 1998 18:18:50 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Romania

Hi Iulian,
  If I understood what you wrote to Walter correctly, you won't read this
until Monday at work.
  I am a little confused.  Your name is David Iulian?  (or Julian?)
You signed this email Iulian.  Walter addressed you as David.  I would
suppose that your first name is David and your second Iulian (or Julian?)
I guess I don't remember what Romanian looks like as a written language.
Is something happening in transliteration?  For the moment I will assume
that since you sign Iulian, you will us to address you that way (with no
mister/Mr.)
  I further I interpolate you to be saying that not all Romanians want to
leave Romania but that those that do, want to adapt to their new culture.
Yet it is sad that in so doing they also lose touch with their own cultural
roots.
  This IS sad.  We experience it here in the U.S. with out Native Americans
or American Indians.  Except for them it has often been even worse, because
they were so torn between cultures that they could/can not adapt to the
so-called 'White Man's' culture.  Some are more lucky than others.
  Why can't we all be 'one world'?  Acceptant of one another, keeping our
heritage, and yet moving with the times?
  Perhaps we can here in this tiny community of Psyber-L.
  Perhaps this is where and how the 'soul in cyberspace' lives, breaths, and
thrives.  Perhaps this is the contribution that we as a group can make to
the Collective Consciousness (and eventually, hopefully even to the depth
of the Unconsious as our values are internatized.)

Nancy
Feeling that each of us has our own 'small acre to till' for the greater
good.

On Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:31:55 PST, David Iulian <d_iulian@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:

>> There was a real desire
>in
>>the generational family to be "american".
>
>Hi Cheryl,
>
>This is a real desire of almost all the romanians who leave the country.
>A sad reality.
>
>Anyway, I'm glad to read this message. Now we are 'relatives'.
>
>Iulian :)
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
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