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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:16:33 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama
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I'm having a good day! Psyber-l is good for me today!

Nancy,
I have just bought "She" and am saying YES to your suggestion.  When I saw
your post this morning which said:  Charles, you can be the sun!  I thought
exquisite .... directorship!  Sorry Nancy ... you are quite right not to
want to use the word, that may be very wise ... as long as we have you and
your lamp!


Walter,
Thinking about my role in the drama.

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:16:36 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
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Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro, or shade and light dappled together
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Charles,

Thanks Charles for posting that here, feels very right.  I love the flow of
the sound of the words ... they were the lyrics to the music in the cafe at
lunchtime, like the song from the essay, that was a very small step.

"seekers of the various and unified love them" ... I glimpse something of
your theory of everything ... it stands like a tree in the forest of other
theory trees like "all is one" ... but I don't understand what Hoon gets
... 3 ?

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
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Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:06:12 -0500
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>theory trees like "all is one" ... but I don't understand what Hoon gets
>... 3 ?
>
>Walter,

I chuckled when I read this. When I was force fed the esoteric aspect of
'number' I didn't understand the import and, at least for me, the
'professor' had to make it explicit and easy, as it were.

Anyway, draw a picture of a shoot coming up out of the ground; draw its
first branch; draw its second branch.

Voila: 3!

Then start looking at branches a lot, outside and *inside*. :-)

***

best to you,

HooN

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Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:17:11 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fresh start?Psyche/Eros Psychodrama
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Julienne,

>At 09:25 PM 6/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Yes, Julienne, but I'm probably not using it correctly...I'm at the basic
>>remedial myth metaphoric level of something unseen in my referencial case
>>meaning something unseen to *me* not *you*...not that it was put there as a
>>test if I remember the story correctly which I probably don't
>>
>>Judith
>
>Well, I don't remember it either - except that she had a ton of mattresses
>under her but still couldn't sleep, as I recall, because she was so sensitive
>that she could feel a pea way at the bottom of the stack.
>
>Was that what you were saying? That I'm sensitive?
Yes...and also that there is something unseen by me... something unspoken
of here which is private to you and your journey...my sense has been, and
this could be unfounded, that what I am experiencing of you here and the
complex chapter of your life which you have brought here has roots which
are not visible here...this is partly why I have not participated in the
exchanges...I just don't think I have the whole picture of your life and
your journey, meaning what you came here to reality to workcontribute to
the evolution of consciousness...you wereare experiencing huge forces which
converged at a given time, pressing you to your limits and asking you to
expand...this to me is what is going on for many people and I see it as a
clearingcleansing for all of us...my view is that we each have issues which
we in our uniqueness are qualified if you will to work thru for all of
human kind...the personal nonpersonal...your sensativity is necessary to
your equation, to the working out of whatever it is...so I have a belief
that we attract those experiences which will give us the opportunity to do
the work we "agreed" to do coming here, thus the farmer, not pleasant and
bringing great anguish for what he did to your llamas...so I frame myself
in *service* to this larger work
>
>Strange synchronistic thing here is that we threw a mattress out today. :)

Exactly and now the pea which you could sense is revealed to you...and now
the deneumont (excuse the slaughtering of the word by my french is long in
the past)
>
>Maybe that's symbolic of the process of ending the peas and rocks and
>stuff under my mattress for this past period. :)

Yes, I sense you are completing a big chunk of what you came here to
do...which is why at this exact time I felt I could offer the metaphor...I
have been waiting for the correct time to offer it...I see all of us
engaged in our own chunks...
>
>Also strange that, just as the circumstances that are fixible are being fixed,
>and I'm feeling happier and more cheerful, suddenly there's a big burst
>of hostility? Well...I'm just going to continue feeling better...

yes...it appears to be part of the process (if you'll take the word
lightly)...sort of the final opportunity to see the completion of your
work...to insure that the resoltion is as complete as it can be at this
time...and if it still has luminosity there is more work to be done...it
seems you now have a greater continuum of choice....meaning *I'm just going
to continue to feel better...it is my experience in people's
transformations that there is a wonderful settling period...a sense of
grace...where the crucible can be released...

And if I may I see everyone here cooperating in your personalnonpersonal
work with great integrity and committment...as is often the case for me I
am cast as the *bad guy* which I don't enjoy but this time I missed the
audition:-) so I see this as my *good* timing ;-)

So enjoy this period, Julienne...you have gone through your fire with great
passion and authenticity in my book

Blessings to you
Judith thankful for all our contributions to this wonderous journey

>
>Julienne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:26:35 -0400
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Yes, Walter...

This has been an extra-ordinary time for Psyber-L and we all deserve *atta
peoples* for staying in the critical tension...a dramatic example of
Fritz's work on creativity...vision juxtaposed to reality...and we all held
the vision of Psyber-l and didn't collapse so there has been a huge
transformation brought to us by JoAnne and Juliene, a lovely
soulfulness...full and rich...and we are all better for it IMO...yes,
Walter, Psyber-l is *very* good for me today...

Humbly
Judith

>I'm having a good day! Psyber-l is good for me today!
>
>Nancy,
>I have just bought "She" and am saying YES to your suggestion.  When I saw
>your post this morning which said:  Charles, you can be the sun!  I thought
>exquisite .... directorship!  Sorry Nancy ... you are quite right not to
>want to use the word, that may be very wise ... as long as we have you and
>your lamp!
>
>
>Walter,
>Thinking about my role in the drama.
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:29:57 -0400
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Subject:      Tears of gratitude
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All,

I am honored to be here with each of you...

Judith enriched and yes in awe of the human spirit dancing here

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:20:18 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Authenticity
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Judith,

I love listening to your joy!  Do you know that i live in Christchurch ...
perhaps i need to look into paper making, and meet up with Mike.

~~~

I don't quite understand how you can call yourself  mi.  I used to be
mythically impaired ... what happens now for me is that i see patterns
repeat and repeat ... opening a door & being born & leaving a relationship
& quitting a job and so on, have something in common.  Call that archetypal
and then, it is no longer just about me, and that can be a comfort.  Then
when I am grappling with transition, any story that has something of the
relevant archetype is the myth.  I am mythically impaired in that I don't
know lots of stories ... but i can see that with the above examples birth
stories, the Christian story, transition stories like The Wizard of OZ etc,
might be enlightening.

I know you know all this Judith, but I wonder if the way I have put it
somehow connects something up?


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 13:13:13 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: A fresh start?
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Hoon,

> An odd occurance yesterday. I sent a message, noted it was having trouble
> moving to the POP server, and re-sent it. Never got it incoming from
> Psyber-L. First time that has happened. Reread the letter to see if I could
> figure out if the problem was its content. (!) Didn't see a clear sign of
> that being the case.

Did you re send it?  Or did it go stale?  I am amazed how fast that can
happen, when the flow on here is fast!  Do you suspect the listserver?
(see separate post on that, on its way soon).


> ***

> Old patterns no longer viable. New pattern not visible.

I had use for that today as i reflected it back to a client.  Immediately
the new pattern became visible, thanks, I'll never forget it.

> ***

I found your response to Robert refreshing and the following has had me in
a pleasant state of fever with an abstraction virus.

> I'm not argueing against noting how disturbed one is by another's patterns;
> but, such 'noting' rarely changes the other's patterns, at least in my
> experience.

> Similarly, if one wishes not to become identified with the role implicit in
> the transference then it is incumbent on the person to consciously model
> the opposite of that role. That's true whether the projection is positive
> or negative, but the opposite is most valuably consciousness, i.e. the
> opposite 'process'.

I like what you say and have seen you do it too, and may have been at the
receiving end of the odd one?  and appreciated that.

I can also see that Roberts out burst of Enough is a link in a chain ... a
node in a web? ... one of the (essential?) steps in the process ... I am
conscious of a whole chain of posts either side of Robert's, and the moment
of cathartic out burst as a step in the evolution of awareness.  As Judith
says "atta peoples!"  ... and

I do know

Julienne,

that you found it hostile ... many posts perhaps sound hostile and cruel
... I can feel that and feel for you ... I hope and hope that this, so-far
partially, shared time of movement into a new pattern is something you
share in ... Judith is saying it better than i can ... please just hang in
there ... I don't think any one is really out to get you here ... not now
... not me.  I have no difficulty in understanding that it might feel that
way.

> ***

HooN,
You speak of a new pattern and then write , what I could not put words to a
few days ago when JoAnne asked me what i thought we were grappling with ...
I wanted then to say something like this:


> _Psyche and Eros_ may prove to a greatly valuable myth should it help us to
> a new pattern. My own sense in anticipation is that this new pattern is
> about us becoming more tolerant, not less; more savvy about our choices;
> and more aware that everybody has *sand grain nature* and that it isn't the
> grain of sand
>
> which turns itself
>
> into a
>
> pearl.

~~~


> ps - we might consider reading Robert Johnson's _She_ together; it's short
> and sweet.

Sweet, though only up to about page 7.  Interesting:

"Aphrodite who is criticised at every turn, does what is necessary to make
Psyche's evolution possible.  It is easy to be positive after the fact, but
it is devilishly painful while it is happening.  There is a sort of inner
chaotic evolutionary warfare happening during this time."



Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:15:51 -0400
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Walter,
You must find Mark Lander somewhere around there I think...he lives in an
old hotel, I don't think I got his address...what fun it would be to have
you see his stuff, sharing long distance what I experienced here...he is
now in Vermont at a Dard Hunter (father of western papermaking) Conference
returning sometime in August I think...loving my New Zealand connection
BTW...something deeply resonates for me

>Judith,
>
>I love listening to your joy!  Do you know that i live in Christchurch ...
>perhaps i need to look into paper making, and meet up with Mike.
>
>~~~
>
>I don't quite understand how you can call yourself  mi.  I used to be
>mythically impaired ... what happens now for me is that i see patterns
>repeat and repeat ... opening a door & being born & leaving a relationship
>& quitting a job and so on, have something in common.  Call that archetypal
>and then, it is no longer just about me, and that can be a comfort.
Yes, the embeddedness...personalnonpersonal...in the world of my bird
totems it is about flying high to get a different perspective...I imagine
that is what myth does on some level...for me it *is* about context...so I
can learn about myth from reading Jean Houston's *life* in her book The
Mythic Life and see her story and her archetypal resonnance to Athena...
 Then
>when I am grappling with transition, any story that has something of the
>relevant archetype is the myth.  I am mythically impaired in that I don't
>know lots of stories ... but i can see that with the above examples birth
>stories, the Christian story, transition stories like The Wizard of OZ etc,
>might be enlightening.
Jean Houston in a workshop a few months back related the Wizard of OZ and
it's mythic meaning...for me it is getting this framing into my mind so
that I can use it...seeing it metaphorically, what I have a hard time with
is laying the myth over my life and seeing a continuity...the linearity of
the story *line* gets in my way I think...
>
>I know you know all this Judith, but I wonder if the way I have put it
>somehow connects something up?

Yes, Walter, thank you...the contributions of Charles helped to open
something up for me and your contextualizing did connect something and now
I am off to the  book store :-)

Cheers!
Judith loving learning as usual
>
>
>Walter
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:40:04 -0400
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Subject:      Re: A fresh start?
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Walter,
a snippet...you remembered something for me from long long ago...which is a
link and I'm off to see the Mythic the wonderful Mythic of...


>HooN,
>You speak of a new pattern and then write , what I could not put words to a
>few days ago when JoAnne asked me what i thought we were grappling with ...
>I wanted then to say something like this:
>
>
>> _Psyche and Eros_ may prove to a greatly valuable myth should it help us to
>> a new pattern. My own sense in anticipation is that this new pattern is
>> about us becoming more tolerant, not less; more savvy about our choices;
>> and more aware that everybody has *sand grain nature* and that it isn't the
>> grain of sand
>>
>> which turns itself
>>
>> into a
>>
>> pearl.
>
>~~~
>
>
>> ps - we might consider reading Robert Johnson's _She_ together; it's short
>> and sweet.
>
>Sweet, though only up to about page 7.  Interesting:
>
>"Aphrodite who is criticised at every turn, does what is necessary to make
>Psyche's evolution possible.

Long ago when I was bemoaning my Plight as the catalyst to my then mentor,
she gave me the instrument she used in her master's thesis for me to
take...I didn't know what it was about then as I was merrily in my
vectors...there were pictures of the Goddesses Hestia et al who I didn't
have any consciousness knowledge of and I was to put them in the order in
which they resonnated to me...aha! Aphrodite was first...and yes I am
undeterred in doing whatever is necessary to make evolution possible for
those who come to me...the gift I was given to balance my empathicness was
the gift of the nonpersonal...well, there certainly is learning for me
going on...thanks to all...I may be able to enroll in Mythic 101! :-)

 It is easy to be positive after the fact, but
>it is devilishly painful while it is happening.

Yes, and I think it is Carolyn Myss, a medical intuitive who wrote in The
Anatomy of the Spirit that when one is in the Dark Night of the Soul one
can only endure...I for one coming out of the physical Dark Night can
attest to the devilishly painfulness as well as the *necessity of
endurance*...the alchemical process...
>
  There is a sort of inner
>chaotic evolutionary warfare happening during this time."
>
And what I found is that a sense of timing is an essential skill...to know
what battle to focus on for the highest leverage...I went to a chiopractor
yesterday who I have know about for over a year...he said he'd been waiting
for me to come...my housemate downstairs recommended him to me early on in
my health crisis...anyway he did his preliminary scanning and said that I
had done the work with my healers he usually has to do before he can do his
work...meaning I came to him at the precise time his work could give me the
highest leverage...Thank you God for gifts great and small...

Judith breathing deeper
>
>Walter
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:42:34 -0400
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Subject:      Re: A fresh start?PS Walter
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And my prayer, Walter, has been: God grant me elegance of spirit

Judith having done a *lot* of kicking and screaming

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Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:11:33 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
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Nancy:

> You could be the sun in our psychodrama.

ROTFL.  May the nine muses my mothers protect me!

No, Nancy -- my thanks, and I am honored, but the last part I would wish is
one which has no shadow... perilous business that, for a mortal.  Besides,
I'm already committed to the game's telling of the tale, and will be mostly
a bystander at this drama.

I like Judith's idea: do props.  Wish I'd thought of that first <grin>.  A
couple of thoughts, though, about the project itself:

*

If there is such a drama unfolding, Nancy, and I believe there is, it seems
to me that each of us takes our part in turn anyway, in posting our
responses to the matter of the list...

that just as we don't need a director, we have no need to name ourselves to
particular roles -- doing so might in fact inhibit our discoveries "otside"
those roles, or draw from us what the Friends would call "words beyond our
leadings"...

the beauty of the thing being that (for instance) Hoon speaks of ants and
their ant-mind for his own reasons -- and *then* Anita posts about the ants
in *Eros and Psyche*... not that Hoon chooses to be the ants, surely...

*

Looking at all this from another angle, and vaguely remembering a comment
Walker made to me about psychodrama when he was visiting: if we are to take
roles, we should perhaps take roles and then reverse them -- so that each
of us at some point must play the "opposite" part, and speak the utterly
foreign wisdom...

Hmmmm...

*

With best wishes,



--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:52:59 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: A fresh start?
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HooN,

> Robert,
>
> Your passion for this group is valuable to me.

Thanks, HooN.  It's amazing how one sometimes needs to hear words such
as this.  I do know that I look forward to seeing your "sc" in the
"sender" column of my e-mail.  I am always curious to hear how you
see/hear/know the world.

> group's consciousness is very unlikely to be 'improved' because someone
> insists of another: "Be more conscious!"

For me, it was the *saying* that was important.  I don't for a moment
really believe that in the *saying* that I will effect a change in
anyone or a group. I said it for me, a way to become more conscious of
the web that I had entered.

> I'm not argueing against noting how disturbed one is by another's patterns;
> but, such 'noting' rarely changes the other's patterns, at least in my
> experience.

No, one can only change one's own patterns by becoming aware of the
pattern and by naming it.

> Similarly, if one wishes not to become identified with the role implicit in
> the transference then it is incumbent on the person to consciously model
> the opposite of that role.

I hear you.  A lesson to learn.

> ps - we might consider reading Robert Johnson's _She_ together; it's short
> and sweet.

I won't be near a bookstore for another week.  If we are going to do
this book here I hope that we could wait until I get a copy of the book
and get back home, say about the 13th (and I was just looking at this
book and the book HE just last week).  I do like the idea of
investigating the myth of Psyche and Eros (as well as discussing Eros
and Pathos as strange attractors)

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:53:07 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Power and Construction in Psyberspace
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Walter,

It's been a log time coming, but I do have a response to your post to me
of June 9th. You began your post with a response to my words of June
6th:

> > For one person to be the "architect" the "constructor" of a community is
> > impossible in this space.

Your response:

> Hmmm,  the very software we choose determines a lot.  The
> software decrees that one person is the list owner.  It makes a
> lot of difference what the list is called, what is in the
> description and the charter.  The myriads of settings about
> access to membership, archives etc. make a difference, and the
> power to remove people from the list is part of the construction
> that only the list owner has.

Walter, these are real things that are of course aspects of architecture
that are within the "power" of the list owner.  I, too, have enjoyed
similar "power" with both the DNET and JUNG lists.  But, I don't for a
moment see that power as very significant.  The real power lies within
the "community" of subscribers.  Often here in psyber-l this is seen,
especially when you shift into the role of analytical observer of the
process that transpires.

I notice that on the JUNG list, it is others who seem to be the "force"
that gives that list life.  All my contribution amounts to is that of
landlord who doesn't even demand rent money.  My role of listowner there
is minimal.  However on the DNET list, my silence translates to list
silence, my participation generally invites a busy dialogue among the
otherwise silent aundience.

Yet, I see your power evident as somewhat of a parent among a horde of
children when there are appeals to you which remind me of years past
when my children were small:  "Papa, she touched me.  Papa, she said
something mean to me."  And the feeling that builds up when the pleas
are ignored, a feeling which said: "Papa, you are ignoring me and it
hurts.  Why don't you love me anymore?"  I wonder how much of that is
here?

I hear echos of it in myself when in the past I railed against your
hesitancy to speak "directly" to me.  I heard that again with Simon who
felt "pushed away and dismissed" (post of May 17th).

> The members and the events will feed back into how
> the list is structured, as you point out with my recent effort to
> welcome people.

Yes, and note how that recent change has been heard by those still
relatively new here who did not receive that welcome message (thinking
of Nancy).

> It could even be said that the members of the
> list get the sort of structure they 'deserve'  ...  that their
> choices and impact on the list creates the structure.

In a holistic sense, maybe.  The choice of your words here, especially
the word *deserve* evokes a negative response as I hear "you get what
you deserve, and you don't deserve much."
>
> I guess the truth is all of the above and more.

> I was interested in your comment about making a place for the
> introductions.  That is an architectural decision.  One way would
> be simply to have a page on the web with links to members intros
> in the archives and to their home pages etc.

Is there a spot on psybernet for these?

> Robert, I have been mulling over your thoughts ... like Simon I
> want ask how that comes across ... my aim is to further our
> understanding and to share experiences with a fellow List owner.
> I would also be interested in comments from others of course.

And I have been listening and thinking.  I become less certain about the
lower of a listowner.  I guess it bothers me that anyone
could/should/would hold power over others in this kind of space.
Cyberspace seems to be the most democratic of all spaces yet created.
Holding power here is really only possible when others abdicate their
personal power.

The ultimate exercise of power here is subbing and unsubbing, not in the
participation (though that has some "empowerment" aspects).

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:53:15 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Vs: [P] Julienne's seeing tripe in the mirror
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Anita

> I'm fed up with this all.  I think it  would be
> best for my state of mind to retire now to my secret garden.

I hope that you can get to listen to "Secret Garden" while in your
secret garden.  I have two of this group's CD's.  Beautiful!

Robert

PS  Don't hide out too long.  I look forward to reading your posts.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:53:22 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Totems
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Susan,

> Frogs-----an interesting totem for you, Robert.  A sign of
> transformation, passing from one state to another, from egg to tadpole,
> tadpole to ... to ..... (oops, my biological memory fails me here-I know
> there is a middle stage) , from .... to frog, from frog to
> prince...........wonder where you see yourself in the process?

Transformational stage?  Very much where I am at.  Where do I see myself
in the process?  The gnome stage with little prospect of ever becoming
the prince, hoping to one day become somewhat of a wise graybeard.

Egg -> tadpole -> polliwog -> frog (actually tadpole and polliwog are
one and the same stage).

> (Obviously, this note means I'm home--I did not have to resort to
> Druidic sacrifices, even though we had to take shelter at Wind Cave
> National Park from a tornado.  Our cousin left this a.m. with his folks
> headed home; my daughter leaves tomorrow a.m. to fly to her dad's for 10
> days..............ah, the anticipation of blessed silence.....)

I hope that this "silence" means that you will be more "vocal" here.
<Smile> Good to have you back <smile>.

Robert

PS  I hadn't thought of the frog being my "totem".  I wonder what are
the totems of others here in psyber-land.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:42:39 -1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@XTRA.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Cybattical
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Hi All

I'm signing off for a couple of weeks.  That fresh air that Robert was
talking about.

Barry
_________________________________
Barry Kennedy <kennedy.levy@xtra.co.nz>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 00:38:49 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: A fresh start:looking for ox(to julienne)
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Dear Julienne and all

1.
 It's raining.
.....woods..wet, but full of fresh aromas.
I run and run, dancing and shouting "wawawa, bububu".
 Haha, Fortunately, there is no one in the woods.

 Owing to the abnormal weather,
  there are many fallen, withered leaves.
It's obviously midsummer,
   but it seems that fall has come.
Of course, spring, summer, fall and winter always
 come together, not seperately.

2.  "Julienne"

I respect you for your bravery in struggling against
cruelty and indifference of the world.
And I am sorry not to help you in this situation.
       (because of little time and little energy)

At times, we all want to say our own sufferings
without hesitation and ask others to accept it
and console us on our losses and deep sorrows.
And if it's not accepted, we are disappointed
with the world and are inclined to complain
over and over about other's unkindness and indifference.

But, when our experiences are too harsh and severe,
 we have no words for it and can not say a word.
On this point, I envy you.
When our heart get torn into pieces by ruin
and we fall into Hell,
  we even have no energy to struggle against anything.

You still have many things..
   Your sons and friends to communicate with truly.
   Bravery and powerful energy to struggle against crule
people(farmer..etc)

Further, you can say many words about your losses
and sorrows, here, and can complain other's unkindness and attack
other's inhumanity.
 And at least, some people honor you for your experiences and fighting
spirits.
If it console you, that's good.

All doesn't go through cruel and unendurable events.
It might be your/our Karma effect.
  ( I am not attacking you, I am just telling you of my feelings after
reading your mail roughly.)

3. A Zen story
    When a Chinese man called Huike,
    met Bodhidharma, the following conversation ensued:

               Huike: "Please, Master, bring peace to my heart-mind!"
Bodhidharma:
               "Show it to me, and I will pacify it! Huike: "I have
searched for it, but I
               could not find it." Bodhidharma: "If you could search
for it, how could it be
               your very own heart-mind?"

4. When I was painful and hard to endure bonds of life.
I used to read a book about the Ten Oxherding Pictures.
 It is related to Zen Buddhism.
It's composed of ten pictures and poems.

  Title:  The Ten Oxherding Pictures
  author:   Chinese Zen master Kuoan
  translator: Urs APP

1). First poem--looking for an ox

         Pushing aside the weeds of illusion,
         He/she looks for the ox in the wild.

       Through swollen rivers and distant mountains,
         His/her path leads far and farther.

       His/her strength exhausted, he/she's in despair
        There's no more place to search.

         Yet hear that lonely autumn song:
         Cicada in a maple tree.

 (I will write the rest(2-10) when I will be free.)

   *What is ox?
    Why do this man/woman look for ox?

                    rloc
                   eveloy
                  mvelovem
                    love
                     lo
                   velove
                 lovelovelo
                velovelovelo
                 velovelove
                  lovelove
              lovelovelovelove
             lovelovelovelovelove
             lovelovelovelovelove
               lovelovelovelove

Meeseo.
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:08:50 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
In-Reply-To:  <l03130300b1c002f33990@[38.29.10.233]>
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Charles, Nancy,

Ah, what interesting times!

I have trained and practiced psychodrama since 1980.  This is one of the
major journeys in life for me, that is how it is, for good or ill.  I have
been in a sort of psychodrama cult, and am out of it now, yet I am still a
psychodramatist, and still involved professionally and awaiting to hear if
i have passed a thesis, which is with the examiners.  If ... when, I pass
that I will have the formal status of Psychodrama Director.  Your proposal,
Nancy,  that we have a psychodrama and mentioning human flaws of
psychodramatists in the same breath fits well with my own complex
relationship to psychodrama.  I mention all this simply as background to my
interest in this whole topic as it unfolds, and i want to include myself in
the conversation with you and Charles ...

> Nancy:
>
> > You could be the sun in our psychodrama.
>
> ROTFL.  May the nine muses my mothers protect me!
>
> No, Nancy -- my thanks, and I am honored, but the last part I would wish is
> one which has no shadow... perilous business that, for a mortal.  Besides,
> I'm already committed to the game's telling of the tale, and will be mostly
> a bystander at this drama.

Of course I respect, Charles, that you decline the taking of the role, yet
I am looking with an eye to the meaning of that in the story, the drama.
To clarify:  Imagine someone in a psychodrama context (which i am aware
this is not ... not quite anyway)  choosing someone to be their mother.
The chosen person declines, or is reluctant ... that may reveal the very
essence of the mother daughter relationship.  There is no cool channel in
other words.

Now there is an opportunity to wonder ... is Apollo in the story?  Does he
have a shadow?  Does the Sun decline to go into the underworld?  What of
the relationship between the gods an mortals?

~~~

> I like Judith's idea: do props.  Wish I'd thought of that first <grin>.  A
> couple of thoughts, though, about the project itself:

It is of course so dear to my heart to talk about the "project itself" that
I can't resist to come in on this.  I find the word project here
interesting ... I am a project person ... Psybernet, Psyber-L etc.  Yet
once they exist ... then they live ... to keep thinking of them as
"projects" might be to throw dampers on them, Dolores might have taught me
that.  I wonder at which point something like the production of the Titanic
(movie or ship for that matter) ceased to be a project but became the
movie, the ship.

I have a hunch, and would like to check it with you Nancy, that you do not
think of the psychodrama as a project.  Does that fit?

You refer, Charles to our conversation where I said I did not think
psychodrama could be conducted in the online situation ... yet I am
definitely saying Yes to the suggestion Nancy has made.  I am surprised at
my shift within that short time, although what is happening here is unique
and not at all like what I envisaged an online psychodrama might look like.
Perhaps psychodrama is the wrong word, as it does evoke the specific
techniques & methods of the group setting, at least in my mind.

Drama of the psyche is happening here, as Nancy names it.  Psyber-L is the
stage, and we live the patterns of the soul.   Nancy is the lamp and thus
in a role that will guide us.  The story itself is also being brought to
the list as if by a narrator ... You have brought in the inverse
relationship between the master pouring wax on the nipples of the slave
girl, and the drop of wax that psyche drops on her hidden lover, for
example.  The ants were already there ... the drama is on its way with its
own life and by taking ... or not taking roles ... the drama rolls on.

> If there is such a drama unfolding, Nancy, and I believe there is, it seems
> to me that each of us takes our part in turn anyway, in posting our
> responses to the matter of the list...
>
> that just as we don't need a director, we have no need to name ourselves to
> particular roles -- doing so might in fact inhibit our discoveries "otside"
> those roles, or draw from us what the Friends would call "words beyond our
> leadings"...

> the beauty of the thing being that (for instance) Hoon speaks of ants and
> their ant-mind for his own reasons -- and *then* Anita posts about the ants
> in *Eros and Psyche*... not that Hoon chooses to be the ants, surely...
>
> *

Hoon has chosen to be the ants!  I would be interested in hearing from the
ants in first person!  (Who does that make me for a moment or two ... I
wonder!  As an aside, I watched ants as a child, and that helped a lot!)
The lamp is leading the way, it is already speaking in the first person ...
"I am a little lamp ..."  I like that!

> Looking at all this from another angle, and vaguely remembering a comment
> Walker made to me about psychodrama when he was visiting: if we are to take
> roles, we should perhaps take roles and then reverse them -- so that each
> of us at some point must play the "opposite" part, and speak the utterly
> foreign wisdom...
>
> Hmmmm...
>
> *

Yes ... Initially I thought it impossible to do on line ... then while in
Boston shortly after our discussion, I stared writing up how "role
reversal" might be used on line ... I think I was too much in the "project
mode" with that ... now I feel content simply to go with the flow ... to
"entertain a role" for a while if someone casts me in one, or to utterly
refuse, should that be my need.  I can also see how I might be moved to
speak in the role of any one of the characters, and perhaps reply as
another ... even if someone else has written as that entity, character,
god, there is room to expand the depth.  This way we could move flexibly
through the roles and each bring aspects of the role to the fore, and do
what I thought impossible to *orchestrate* ... role reversal on line.

I am content to do that ... and to see others do that ... and very content
in the way the lamp lights the way  ... orchestration, direction might
simply emerge ... or not.  The drama may rise and fall in amongst other
threads in psyber-L ... interwoven with reading "She" and other versions of
the story.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:10:29 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: A fresh start:looking for ox(to julienne)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Meeseo,

Thank you for your eloquence...

Gentle breeze wafts
through the leaves
  The sun appears

Blessings,
Judith
PS I read where a cruise ship is being allowed into North Korea...very odd
to me tho I have only limited knowing of the pain and suffering there...

>Dear Julienne and all
>
>1.
> It's raining.
>.....woods..wet, but full of fresh aromas.
>I run and run, dancing and shouting "wawawa, bububu".
> Haha, Fortunately, there is no one in the woods.
>
> Owing to the abnormal weather,
>  there are many fallen, withered leaves.
>It's obviously midsummer,
>   but it seems that fall has come.
>Of course, spring, summer, fall and winter always
> come together, not seperately.
>
>2.  "Julienne"
>
>I respect you for your bravery in struggling against
>cruelty and indifference of the world.
>And I am sorry not to help you in this situation.
>       (because of little time and little energy)
>
>At times, we all want to say our own sufferings
>without hesitation and ask others to accept it
>and console us on our losses and deep sorrows.
>And if it's not accepted, we are disappointed
>with the world and are inclined to complain
>over and over about other's unkindness and indifference.
>
>But, when our experiences are too harsh and severe,
> we have no words for it and can not say a word.
>On this point, I envy you.
>When our heart get torn into pieces by ruin
>and we fall into Hell,
>  we even have no energy to struggle against anything.
>
>You still have many things..
>   Your sons and friends to communicate with truly.
>   Bravery and powerful energy to struggle against crule
>people(farmer..etc)
>
>Further, you can say many words about your losses
>and sorrows, here, and can complain other's unkindness and attack
>other's inhumanity.
> And at least, some people honor you for your experiences and fighting
>spirits.
>If it console you, that's good.
>
>All doesn't go through cruel and unendurable events.
>It might be your/our Karma effect.
>  ( I am not attacking you, I am just telling you of my feelings after
>reading your mail roughly.)
>
>3. A Zen story
>    When a Chinese man called Huike,
>    met Bodhidharma, the following conversation ensued:
>
>               Huike: "Please, Master, bring peace to my heart-mind!"
>Bodhidharma:
>               "Show it to me, and I will pacify it! Huike: "I have
>searched for it, but I
>               could not find it." Bodhidharma: "If you could search
>for it, how could it be
>               your very own heart-mind?"
>
>4. When I was painful and hard to endure bonds of life.
>I used to read a book about the Ten Oxherding Pictures.
> It is related to Zen Buddhism.
>It's composed of ten pictures and poems.
>
>  Title:  The Ten Oxherding Pictures
>  author:   Chinese Zen master Kuoan
>  translator: Urs APP
>
>1). First poem--looking for an ox
>
>         Pushing aside the weeds of illusion,
>         He/she looks for the ox in the wild.
>
>       Through swollen rivers and distant mountains,
>         His/her path leads far and farther.
>
>       His/her strength exhausted, he/she's in despair
>        There's no more place to search.
>
>         Yet hear that lonely autumn song:
>         Cicada in a maple tree.
>
> (I will write the rest(2-10) when I will be free.)
>
>   *What is ox?
>    Why do this man/woman look for ox?
>
>                    rloc
>                   eveloy
>                  mvelovem
>                    love
>                     lo
>                   velove
>                 lovelovelo
>                velovelovelo
>                 velovelove
>                  lovelove
>              lovelovelovelove
>             lovelovelovelovelove
>             lovelovelovelovelove
>               lovelovelovelove
>
>Meeseo.
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:22:36 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

so Walter, my *choosing* props means what in the Land of Myth?

Maybe I make sure everyone has what they need for their journey?
Maybe I have no need to take the journey?
Maybe I don't feel ready to take the journey?
Maybe...cave exploration gives me the willies?
Maybe I don't have the map?

hummmm...
Judith

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Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 12:13:29 -0500
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>so Walter, my *choosing* props means what in the Land of Myth?
>
>Maybe I make sure everyone has what they need for their journey?
>Maybe I have no need to take the journey?
>Maybe I don't feel ready to take the journey?
>Maybe...cave exploration gives me the willies?
>Maybe I don't have the map?
>
>hummmm...
>Judith

Judith, all,

An urban usage of props these days means to give some one their 'props'
which is equivalent to a complement but is also wrapped up in the
acknowledgement of stature. Such a use may have something to do with giving
a person their 'property' at the same time doing so, 'props' them up. In
the latter case, we're delivered back to the idea which joins the stage
connotations, prop(erty) and those *little things* that, nonetheless, are
crucial in ways great and small to the production.

*property* denotes not only something which is a part of, (for example,)
the *play*, but carries also the connotation of *foremost* and *nearness*.
I'd like to mention only this once, *proper* meaning *fitting*.

Let me explain...about some of the patterns behind the word.

***

*Property* is one of the most interesting words in english. (Did you know?)
It joins pro+per. It's worth delving into the Oxford or American Heritage
dictionaries to check it out. By way of amplification we get to a
synchronicity immediatly because my earlier request for 'fragrant' garden
stories itself comes back around to this word, property.

(You wonder how, no doubt!)

*Per*, in Greek: through, for, by. It's extended version is *peri*: around,
near, beyond. In turn there are roots in both German and Persian. In
German, *fer(e)ra*: farther, far. (Which will become the Old English *feor*
from which the modern *far* is derived.)

In transliteral Persian, we note *pari*: around. This *around* penetrates
the roots of per, par, pari, in many languages. Among modern words which
use *par* are paramount, and, for the purposes of drawing the connection
with garden, *paradise*.

(So it is the fragrance of the garden is a whiff of paradise.)

Further into this we go (!); wordplayfully: paradise is far and beyond and
it is also foremost. From the perspective of the German form *fer*, we note
its use as "an intensive prefix denoting destruction, reversal, or
completion" ...and what could be more paradoxical at the same time we feel
a sense of a great cycle implicit in this *per*, *par*, *por* :

destruction->reversal->completion.

***

*pro*: first, front, foremost. "In the front" then, and from the German,
*fura*: before. 'To and fro,' so, also: *fra*: from, forward, away from. As
an intensive prefix: completely.

>From *fra* ('forward') we obtain marvels! From, fram: the old French is
f(o)urnir: furnish, provide; and rooting through the derivation of the Old
French we come to *frouwa*, hence fraulein in germ,an, but itself rooted in
*frawan*, *lord*!

In Greek the sense of *pro* is (also): before, in front, forward. In Latin
this is *prae*: before; and from this prefix we note all the words which
note 'before', as in *prior* and words derived from the related *privus*:
single, alone, (from *in front*) which include primary, priviledge,
primordial.

***

So the role of *property* is not to be discounted! We think of properties
as those qualities so embedded in a thing, in a process, (even) in a person
so as to represent that which is both *near* and *primary*. Properties are
both able to be separated, (hello ants!) and are also often simply taken
for granted as the very stuff which makes something up. In this latter
respect a thing is 'completely its properties' and so it is also that a
things properties are its priviledge.

Finally, there is an archetypal sensing which brings forth the perfume of
the divine marriage for it follows from this idea of *beforeness* contained
in *primacy* (*pre*) from which are derived *principle*, *prince*, and the
wondrous derivation out of the Greek *presbus* (from which we obtain
*priest*,) which means old man, elder.

But where is the wife in this formulation? Fraulein: the German *frawan* is
the feminine form of Lord.

***

Here's an intuition of the sense of the role 'property' in our *play*:

perfume
near yet beyond
reversal completion

alone the feminine
marries the prince
paradise

***

_Psyche and Eros_ ...yes?

Amazingly property has a telling abstraction also:

pro->por->for(ward)->for
per->pre->primary->per

So it is *property* brings forth *perfor*mance...I will struggle next to
make some intuitions between the mythic import of words, especially as
word's depths reveal their signification, a signification most profound in
the sense that words perform properties which are the perfume of paradise.

(Couldn't help myself, mates!)

***

regards,

HooN

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Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:04:34 -0600
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Judith,

> My own sense of what is going on for *me* is that the issues which are
> rising have arisen are not mine or any longer mine...I spent years decoding
> the archetypes if that's the right word that were in my *story* and then
> setting out to demagnatize myself, issue by issue...it took 7 years to get
> the basic work done, following each trigger until the source and then
> rewiring...I recognize here threads of past experiences of these in my life
> and find sustanence in having the resolutions and a self respect for the
> work I have accomplished...so in reading the posts I find there is
> validation for my own journey and empathy for us on the path...this is not
> to set myself up as *morebetter* just that I had to resolve these earlier
> on in order to experience any of myself...I'm sure in time my next
> challenge will emerge here and I'm hoping by then to get this myth thing
> down :-)

I thought that I would *envy* your accomplishment in getting past these
"issues" which arise here.  However, I feel only joy that this is what
you have journeyed to following secen years of *work*.  And in saying
this, I find that my own hope is stronger.  Merci!

> Thank you all for bringing what I experience as your authenticity...this
> moves me closer to each of you today...and I am washed over with continued
> awe...

It is authenticity, isn't it?  This is not studied poses that we are
taking here.  I wonder at how we developed so much trust to risk being
authentic?  I don't recall this much authenticity on any other list.
And, I don't see this as the telling of all to a stranger that is met on
a plane-train-bus, a person one would never see again.  Here, we stay
and our warts become, for a while, the dominant aspects of our
recognizable "self".

Robert
- in an uncharacteristic Saskatchewan season of monsoon activity
- I can hear the cacti worrying if they will survive the wetness

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Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:04:45 -0600
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HooN,

You wrote:

> An odd occurance yesterday. I sent a message, noted it was having trouble
> moving to the POP server, and re-sent it. Never got it incoming from
> Psyber-L. First time that has happened. Reread the letter to see if I could
> figure out if the problem was its content. (!) Didn't see a clear sign of
> that being the case.

This happened to me twice before I was able to make my posts on Monday
get through.  Strange that this happened in more than one spot at the
same time! I located the problem, I was trying to "relay" the message
from my Saskatchewan server to the Calgary server then on to PSYBER-L.

Robert

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Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:04:55 -0600
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Subject:      Meeseo -> looking - searching - sensing
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Meeseo,

It has been raining here as well leaving the grass a lush green.  From
this lushness comes a faint growing smell of rot with the return of the
sun's heat. Fullness that gives of many aromas, tantalizing and cloying
at the same time.

I was playing a game of golf with my wife during the last sudden
outpouring of rain and thunder.  With the coming of the rain we played
on laughing.  We watched the others head for shelter.  It had been a
hot, muggy game up to that point and the freshness of the rain gave
relief from that.  Such was yesterday afternoon here in Lanigan,
Saskatchewan.

In talking to Julienne, you said:

> At times, we all want to say our own sufferings
> without hesitation and ask others to accept it
> and console us on our losses and deep sorrows.
> And if it's not accepted, we are disappointed
> with the world and are inclined to complain
> over and over about other's unkindness and indifference.

And I think of my own complaints, my own suffering, my own fuzzily
expressed needs.  One does get caught up in these, especially when the
losses are not yet fully defined and the sorrows barely given their
voice.  How then to ask wisely for console from others.  I realise that
I have waited for console even without letting others know that it was
wanted, needed.  And, in the waiting I had/have little patience for the
ably expressed demands of others.  To my own shame, I reacted with anger
rather than compassion.  Strange how compassion is easy elsewhere.  Here
in PSYBER-L I have different expectations.  Here I have become more
transparent, have bared much of what is kept safely hidden in shadows in
my face-to-face world.

>                     rloc
>                    eveloy
>                   mvelovem
>                     love
>                      lo
>                    velove
>                  lovelovelo
>                 velovelovelo
>                  velovelove
>                   lovelove
>               lovelovelovelove
>              lovelovelovelovelove
>              lovelovelovelovelove
>                lovelovelovelove

Struggling still to find words.  Often feeling these words I do write
are just so much babble.

Robert

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Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:05:03 -0600
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Barry,

Thank you for letting me/us know about you Cy-battical.  I look forward
to hearing from you when you return.  I hope that you enjoy the time
off.  Any special plans?

> I'm signing off for a couple of weeks.  That fresh air that Robert was
> talking about.

I hope that this means you will be spending time in nature, poetry and
art in constant beingness.

Robert

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Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 13:30:58 -0500
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Judith, all,

Judith, you and I have had many marvelous moments making connections
together (and may God will many more!) and also playing with others in the
same way. Our sensibilities are in some respects quite different with your
vectors and my reason delving into the data and bringing forth intuitions
in their respectively 'different' ways. Still, we both understand how it is
setting the terms for this connection-making necessarily includes a
heartfelt intention, devotion to engagement, and, since you raised it here
recently, *timing*...some sense of what the moment requires.

***

We've never had to state to each other, that 'we are comfortable with
paradox'. Our processes diverge as a matter of their methodology, yet they
converge as a matter of their gain, which is both the stuff of knowledge
and is also this state of 'being in paradox'. We enjoy this state, even
enjoy it together, which is a very special blessing. So it is, for both of
us, increases in knowing amps paradox. We both find this to be very
beautiful, very truthful. (You favorbeauty, I favortruth!)

One more preliminary: my own framework has as its *principle property* (!)
the reasonable "destruction, reversal, and completion* of unreason.
Alternately, my own framework is able to concern itself with reason which
is found incapable at a particular level. (This echoes, Walter, the earlier
thought: "Old patterns no longer viable. New pattern not visible.") This
works with your process so you and I can do our work...our play!

Judith, meanwhile, you have a wholistic sensing, your *vectors*, which
presupposes a paradoxical ability to sense and hold an 'enormity' at the
same time you are extremely sensitive to the potential for reformulation of
the 'enormity' should the proper (!) *novelty* be introduced into it. We
have witnessed together and been awed by many such reformulations but we
also comprehend they are often tiny and incremental; (more about this
below).

***

Judith: you previously mentioned some sense of a 'new myth,' and this fits
into my sense of your process. The new myth is process. You feel yourself
myth-impaired because you don't recognize the old formulation, yet,
paradoxically, it is the old formulation from which your *myth process* has
originated from.

Here's another way of putting it, as far as I can sense it. One of the
conceits of a conventional way of looking at the mythological, is that,
viewed as a developmental map, the point is for one to develop according to
the meaningful contours of the story, i.e. to 'get the story right'.

What I recognize in your protesting about how it is you are 'myth impaired'
Judith, is that this ordinate of getting the story right does not compute
for you. Nor should it! You've developed,as have others nowadays, a myth
process that is about a different ordinate. It also points the way in terms
of a personal process to a *novel* way of living mythically.

(Living mythically is to be about "where your energy wishes to be
fulfilled," whether one views it as an imperative of the divine, the center
or Self, or simply one's self-artistry. After a certain point is reached,
living mythically concerns how to *dance the gyre*. Anyway: my belief
system about it...)

***

As grand a conception as I've sketched here, in fact, living mythically is
also individuation, which is concerned with uncovering what is hidden and
integrating it into our personality. It seems grand, but in our work
together Judith, we've seen over and over again how it is a small amount of
novelty enables a dramatic reformulation of the 'enormity' (person!) but
that the actual change is likely to be quite small. (So it is in my
experience the difference in the adjacent windings of the gyre may be tiny,
but, paradoxically, to become aware of one's own shift between those
adjacent windings, is to feel a complete and dramatic reformulation has
taken place. Cool: tiny but giant!)

***

If ants sort, who or what connects?

***

My wordplay is not about linguistics or semantics or etymology; its logic
is about connecting up the hidden aspect of words which happen to both go
back in time (to the *Old*) and penetrate through different languages.

It is a mythological quest for something close to the archetypal aspect of
the word. It literally is an intuitive wordplay aimed at breaking apart,
sifting, connecting, evaluating, and discovering hidden meanings which may
have the import to take the word to another level. It becomes a search for
a novel pattern; a way of making the word's story bigger.

Obviously the word *property* does not mean *divine marriage*, but through
acting upon it mythologically, we see how *divine marriage* may be hidden
within it. It can, of course, just be an excercise, or it can help develop
the pattern concerning what *may be meant* if a person is attracted to this
strange idea: "I don't want a role, I'll just be the props!" (Gotcha!)

***

So, Judith, you have a way of getting at what is hidden in the patterns of
the 'enormity'. It is a mythological process, you're *getting at*. Likewise
with Charles and his GBG's and their open-ended resolution. The same goes
for our navel gazing (and those are two words worth penetrating,) here and
how alien it all must seem to anybody watching who isn't timing their
quest, so-to-speak. (Pretentious, yes! Why not?)

***

Certain formats (Fermat, Judith?!) are lent to us to evoke our quest, our
process.

Likewise, with the mythological story. What is hidden in a mythological
story? How do we get at it?

What is hidden in a dream? How do we get at it?

What is hidden in a game? How do we get at it?

What is hidden in our life? How do we get at it?

What is hidden in our properties? How do we get at it?

What is hidden in our hearts? How do we get at it?

***

?Myth...and ?timing!

***

thanks for indulging me,

HooN

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Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 18:24:54 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Totems
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[can't find the original so I'm quoting Robert's quote]

Susan wrote:
>
>> Frogs-----an interesting totem for you, Robert.  A sign of
>> transformation, passing from one state to another, from egg to tadpole,
>> tadpole to ... to ..... (oops, my biological memory fails me here-I know
>> there is a middle stage) , from .... to frog, from frog to
>> prince...........wonder where you see yourself in the process?

The "middle stage" for a frog is gradual.  They grow legs, the tail
diminishes, their lungs become more functional, the gills atrophy and
then drop off, and eventually they're frogs.  Fascinating to watch in
an aquarium or pond.

Now the frog into prince, haven't seen that in an aquarium yet.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:35:23 -0400
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JoAnne,

>Now the frog into prince, haven't seen that in an aquarium yet.
>
Your message came just as I was about to race to the fish store...oh,
well,keep an eye out for me just in case...I've tried just about everything
else:-)

Judith

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Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:44:20 -0400
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Robert,

IMO everything in its own perfect timing...

>Judith,
>
>> My own sense of what is going on for *me* is that the issues which are
>> rising have arisen are not mine or any longer mine...I spent years decoding
>> the archetypes if that's the right word that were in my *story* and then
>> setting out to demagnatize myself, issue by issue...it took 7 years to get
>> the basic work done, following each trigger until the source and then
>> rewiring...I recognize here threads of past experiences of these in my life
>> and find sustanence in having the resolutions and a self respect for the
>> work I have accomplished...so in reading the posts I find there is
>> validation for my own journey and empathy for us on the path...this is not
>> to set myself up as *morebetter* just that I had to resolve these earlier
>> on in order to experience any of myself...I'm sure in time my next
>> challenge will emerge here and I'm hoping by then to get this myth thing
>> down :-)
>
>I thought that I would *envy* your accomplishment in getting past these
>"issues" which arise here.  However, I feel only joy that this is what
>you have journeyed to following secen years of *work*.  And in saying
>this, I find that my own hope is stronger.  Merci!

It's like mountain climbing isn't it?...I've been pulled up by those ahead
who reached down to give me their hand...I see hands being offered here
continuously...you offering yours and receiving from others...for me it is
about the sacredness of life and yes, compassion for all of us
>
>> Thank you all for bringing what I experience as your authenticity...this
>> moves me closer to each of you today...and I am washed over with continued
>> awe...
>
>It is authenticity, isn't it?  This is not studied poses that we are
>taking here.  I wonder at how we developed so much trust to risk being
>authentic?  I don't recall this much authenticity on any other list.
>And, I don't see this as the telling of all to a stranger that is met on
>a plane-train-bus, a person one would never see again.  Here, we stay
>and our warts become, for a while, the dominant aspects of our
>recognizable "self".

Yes, and then the warts are transmuted here...it is the power of group
consciousness...I see this time as a movement on the continuum from
dependency to independence to interdependence...
>
>Robert
>- in an uncharacteristic Saskatchewan season of monsoon activity
>- I can hear the cacti worrying if they will survive the wetness

And the monsoon brings purification and cleansing...

Blessings,
Judith
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:01:14 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche: a play...many act, one whole

I was thinking of what Charles, Walter, Judith others...said of directorship and
found:

`  "Upon this path she went . She crossed the threshold of the house and went within.  Beautiful things were there, and no locks, no chains, no guardian protected them.  As she wnt through the house, drawn on by more and more delight, she heard a vioice that said, "Lady and mistress!  All that is here is thine!"

                  From: Myths of the World, by Padraic Colum

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Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:03:10 +0100
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Ok, Which one of you gave the FBI my email address?


I have my suspicions.

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Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 00:08:37 +0100
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I want to add, I am somewhat Pissed off.

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Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:35:27 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Who gave the fbi my email addy?Public

At first when I read your posts I thought...Yah...Maybe so.
  Then I remembered that this list is public and your 'addy' is right there on all
your post.....
   So, folks,  I guess we'd better watch what we say.
   Big Brother may be watching and reading.
   On the other hand, Dolores,  What you've posted here is the only thing I've
read that the FBI could likely have any interest it.
   Good luck,
             Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 19:58:15 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche: a play...many ants, one hill (dang it!)

On Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:01:14 -0400, Nancy Smith  wrote:

>I was thinking of what Charles, Walter, Judith others...said of directorship
>and found:
>
>`  "Upon this path she went . She crossed the threshold of the house and
 went within.  Beautiful things were there, and no locks, no chains, no guardian
 protected them.  As she wnt through the house, drawn on by more and more
delight, she heard a vioice that said, "Lady and mistress!  All that is here is
thine!"
>
>                  From: Myths of the World, by Padraic Colum
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 01:18:49 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Screaming.
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998070219352846@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Nancy,

I'm sure the FBI have got better things to do than sift through the Psyber
L archives etc looking for references to their organisation.

Not that I have much respect for the FBI, cos a) I don't live in America
and b) This is a really scary thought for all of you out there.., they let
Void join their illustrious ranks, and anybody thats got the poor taste to
a)sleep with him or b)employ him, deserves everything they get.

love

Dolores

Getting what she so richly deserved for ever loving that distasteful and
odiferous piece of shite that I should have scraped off my shoes while I
had the chance. And why if all that is true, do I love him now still, in
equal parts to the hate and loathing I feel for him. Why does it still
hurt, so badly, so acutely. I've gotten over losing relatives quicker than
this. Life sucks. I'm in a bad mood. Most men, blow goats/llamas. Pissed
off. He said the opposite of love is indifference, not hate. Where does
that leave me?
Why the fuck am I crying?
And Heaven help me for i am beyond helping myself right now.
And who will I ever love like that again.
Nobody will ever take me fishing again, or to shoot at paper targets,or buy
me meatball subs or run my baths full of Hollywood bubbles.
Nobody will ever hurt me like that again either.
Nobody will ever feel that indifference to me again either.
The house is a mess, its like the inside of me, laid out for all to see, or
not see because I close the door and I don't let anybody in anymore, in
more ways than one. I don't want sympathy, or words of kindness, well
meant, but I am better than that or this, but I can't prove it anymore.
Each day I die, till theres just that little bit left of the girl I knew
and forgot. Now my body is dying too, just a warning here, a thrombosis
there. Theres no rock for me, I am my own rock and I'm crumbling, eroded by
a 32 year tide. I long for a rock to cling to, and I know the last rock is
indifferent to me.
I want revenge, i want to make voodoo dolls and stick and stab his heart
with pins. I want to take that doll and as I plunge the pin, I want to send
it seering through his heart with the force of the hurt he did me. Send it
back to him, and let him know how it feels to be a rag doll and have your
heart and soul pierced by steel pins for days and weeks and months and for
the rest of my life quite probably.
And I know, he wasn't, isn't worth it. I could have been his rock, but he
won't know that now, one day when he is drowning and looks for a rock to
cling to, he will only find the ghosts of the women he did not deserve.
Thats revenge, but its not real enough for me, I can't see it. I want to
see it, and I want to taste it, and I want to dash his head against the
wall and scream asshole at him as his brains shower my hands and run
through my fingers. I want to put my fist to my mouth and run my tongue
through the mushed up pulp of all that grey matter, and to taste what was
really there. I think I better stop before I get more graphic.. at the
moment I want to skewer his eyeballs, look at me through his eyes and see,
what wasn't there for him.

I think I might be going slightly gaga.
Yep, more than likely. But then I had a head start. No pun intended.

Look what this turned into..yep definatly gaga. At least in my white padded
cell, there won't be anything for me to tidy up. Just peace, nice peace,
all that floaty morphine kind of nice peace and 3 meals a day and hopefully
some piped music.

Erm...why didn't he love me when he said he did?

I cry to a voice in a silent space and nothing answers because that voice
is mine and it doesn't answer me. And you who know nothing, save what I
chose to tell you, can make decisions based on so very little, and you do
not know me, nor I know you. And each of us sits in this private hell, be
we slave girl or poet, philosopher or mother, llama keeper or list owner.
Each of us screams, and some more loudly than others, and some chose to
ignore it, because the voices are muffled by pretending that way and some
are deaf entirely and good, I envy them.  But its still there, the
screaming, when your alone and you look at a beautiful painting or you hear
a piece of beautiful music, thats when the screaming inside starts - How
many of us dare to be truly alone.
Now, I am alone, me, the darkness, no sounds of traffic, just my thoughts
and the stuccatto tap tap of my fingers, the whir of the innerds of the
computer and the screaming is started. It brings tears to my eyes, and I
push it back, because I can't afford to go there. Tears that are hot on my
cheeks and I push the screaming back..and who of you is wise enough, to
know how I do that? Three guesses to any that care.
It is before your eyes.
Its always been before your eyes.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:27:44 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Screaming.

On Fri, 3 Jul 1998 01:18:49 +0100, Dolores  wrote:

>Dear Nancy,
>I want revenge, i want to make voodoo dolls and stick and stab his heart
>with pins. I want to take that doll and ... I plunge the pin
>... seering through his heart with the force of the hurt he did me.


   You know, Dolores, that might be an extremely healthy idea.  Paraffhin  works
quite weel, or silly putty, maybe chewing gum in a pinch.  If you have a little
 something of not value that he has touched to put in it.

  I once did that.  And shortly thereafter the director, whom co-workers and clients alike hated for her cruel and crazy ways, retired because of foot trouble (that's where I stabbed the doll)  And left us to breath free air again.
         Love, Nancy

PS I admire your typing.  I couldn't do that.

_
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:41:20 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Nancy, High Priestess of voodoo foot magic.
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998070221274800@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Nancy,

You know the only thing thats stopping me is that I've heard it comes back
to you. Well I figured, he gave it to me in the first place, the hurt/pain
etc, so I'm just sending it back, but then, if I send it back, according to
a load of wiccans..it comes whopping back after me again.

Still its tempting.

Is that true about the foot? btw I think its the intent you put behind the
thing that is the power, the doll etc is just there to focus your thoughts
on the thing you most want to perform delicate hate surgery on.
And though this may sound daft, and why not - I think if I just went
through that mental thing of throwing back all this cruddy black dark nasty
stuff hanging over me on his account, I'd feel a whole lot better.

Maybe theres more to this witchy poo stuff than meets the eye.

Dolores

Starting to believe in the powers of darkness, and considering slaughtering
a goat on her back lawn. Think the neighbours would notice? Not many goats
in Cobham, I wonder if frozen chicken will do the business, - if I thaw out
the giblets properly first, I could probably come up with the right mix of
evicera. - I think thats the way you spell it.

Going to go look up Satanic worship on the net now. This should be
interesting.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:42:57 +0100
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Screaming.
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998070221274800@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,

Why out of curiosity did you go for the foot.
I'm thinking of the testicles, but I'm open to suggestions.

Dolores
Wondering if both feet and both testicles might be overkill.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 01:51:09 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Screaming.
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.5.32.19980703011849.007a6210@easynet.co.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, 3 Jul 1998 01:18:49 +0100, you, Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>,
wrote:

>Now, I am alone, me, the darkness, no sounds of traffic, just my thoughts
>and the stuccatto tap tap of my fingers, the whir of the innerds of the
>computer and the screaming is started. It brings tears to my eyes, and I
>push it back, because I can't afford to go there. Tears that are hot on my
>cheeks and I push the screaming back..and who of you is wise enough, to
>know how I do that? Three guesses to any that care.
>It is before your eyes.
>Its always been before your eyes.

Dolores, you alarm me.  Will you be okay?  Wrong question, but I don't
know exactly what the right one is.  Will you continue to hang in
there?  Can you find your way out of the maze?  Can we help you?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:58:33 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Nancy, High Priestess of foot .

On Fri, 3 Jul 1998 02:41:20 +0100, Dolores  wrote:

>Dear Nancy,
>
>You know the only thing thats stopping me is that I've heard it comes back
>to you. Well I figured, he gave it to me in the first place, the hurt/pain
>etc, so I'm just sending it back, but then, if I send it back, according to
>a load of wiccans..it comes whopping back after me again.
>
>Still its tempting.
>
>Is that true about the foot?

N:  Yup.  It's true.  (Did I forget to mention that she was 68 and already had foot
trouble?)  Still it me a lot more functional and nothings come back yet.  Including
her....The next director wouldn't let anyone invite her to even the Christmas
parties.

 btw I think its the intent you put behind the
>thing that is the power, the doll etc is just there to focus your thoughts
>on the thing you most want to perform delicate hate surgery on.
>And though this may sound daft, and why not - I think if I just went
>through that mental thing of throwing back all this cruddy black dark nasty
>stuff hanging over me on his account, I'd feel a whole lot better.
>
>Dolores

>
>Going to go look up Satanic worship on the net now. This should be
>interesting.
>
N: Be careful what Satanic Chat rooms you leave your email address in.  I hear
virgins are in short supply and the Satanics have to settle for what they can get.

           Nancy
           Caring enough to send the very best (foot?)
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:34:13 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Screaming.
In-Reply-To:  <35bd37c3.36311281@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Dolores, you alarm me.  Will you be okay?  Wrong question, but I don't
>know exactly what the right one is.  Will you continue to hang in
>there?  Can you find your way out of the maze?  Can we help you?




Joanne, I kill it with words and I feel much better, like some people kill
it with drink or drugs or banging their heads against walls, or immersing
themselves in work.
You help, because my words go here and they spread out and everything sort
of disperses inside me, like a cluster bomb exploding taking out everything
bad that needs to come out.
Thats actually why I stay here, a therapy of words in a list of voices.
Remeber, I said, it was always before your eyes..or in your in mailbox.
Same thing.
Sometimes, I write complete and utter crap and I have a giggle before I hit
send, and thats the mischief inside me that needs to come out, and then
theres the ego and the play, and all the bits that make up me. They all
find a way on here. This is who I am, messed up, can't spell, my grammers
for shit, but what the hell. It works and its cheaper than a councellor or
a telephone psychic.

I'm not going to go slash my wrists or anything, I do that on here, slash
my wrists, see what happens. I don't fear death, I didn't fear what came
before birth, and that was a nothing, and I believe death is a nothingness
too and not be feared either. All the same I'm in no hurry to get there,
and I'm too chicken shit to do anything that involves pain.

I think Steve, he was before your time, he died, but we never found out, if
he died or if he killed himself. They found his body one day in the river
in Edinburgh. He hadn't been active on the list for a few days. I worried
about him, because he was capable of some very dark moods where  I think he
wanted to explore places he believe existed, that he couldn't find here.
To him death was a kind of glory, a ticket to Atlantis. He was good people.
I miss him. Sometimes I wonder how he felt as the river tugged him under.
What he saw...and the strange thing is, while imagine it, its almost as if
I know. I'm not scared of death, just the loneliness that must be dying,
and I don't want to go there yet, I think its where we scream the loudest.
It is also where the screaming finally stops.

Yours in Potty Nirvanah and discovering that it is indeed possible to curse
somebody and summon demons -well according to the web page I found...ah the
thrill of it.
Now all I need is a full moon and a couple of black candles and I'm well away.

Dolores.
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>
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:39:09 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Nancy, High Priestess of foot .
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998070221583368@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>N: Be careful what Satanic Chat rooms you leave your email address in.  I
hear
>virgins are in short supply and the Satanics have to settle for what they
can get.

Dear Nancy,

Hey, this is cyber space!

Love Dolores

Born again sacrificial cyber Virgin.

P.S Well ok even if she had galloping gout or something, I'm sure what you
did had some effect. She's probably an amputee by now. Wish you hadn't told
me about the prior foot trouble, it sort of ruined the mystical qualities
of the Power of Nancy story and I won't be able to tell anybody I know a
real voodoo priestess anymore. :)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 20:13:51 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      on cursing and such
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Friends:

I urge anyone with a sense that magical operations can be effective and an
inclination to try them, as well as anyone who doubts their efficacy, to
read Kathleen Raine's beautiful book *The Lion's Mouth*, which is the third
volume of her autobiography.  Dr. Raine is among other things a Blake
scholar of international repute -- her two volume *Blake and Tradition*
from Bollingen / Princeton UP caused a *radical* shift in Blake criticism
-- but she's also a wonderful human being and beautiful writer.

This particular book describes in detail a curse which she unleashed
against a man whom she believed loved and betrayed her -- and who no doubt
did for a time love her in his own rather special way -- who was himself
quite an astonishing human being: Gavin Maxwell, the author of *A Ring of
Bright Water*.

I gather that Maxwell too has told at least some part of his side of this
tale, in *Raven, Seek Thy Brother*, though I haven't read it, and don't
know how far his telling goes.

The outcome of the curse was a tragedy for them both -- but also for an
innocent party whom they both loved.

*

Anita, if you don't already know Kathleen's book, it's one that might
interest you from another angle -- a wonderful account of a deeply
sensitive woman coming to the recognition that she has a murderous capacity
within her:

::  Of all criminals it is with murderers that I feel most akin, in the
::  terrible realization of how easily a crime of passion can be
::  committed; perhaps I did after all commit just that crime.  There
::  are many murders besides those committed with arsenic or
::  pistol...

With best wishes,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:13:02 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Nancy, High Priestess of foot .

On Fri, 3 Jul 1998 03:39:09 +0100, Dolores  wrote:

>>N: Be careful what Satanic Chat rooms you leave your email address in.
>
>Dear Nancy,
>
>Hey, this is cyber space!

N:  Ask Ojo (JoJo)  She said she might be able to track April (?) down from an
email address.  It got me to wondering.
>
>Love Dolores
>
>Born again ... Virgin.
>
>P.S Well ok even if she had galloping gout or something, I'm sure what you
>did had some effect. She's probably an amputee by now.
====
N:  Not exactly.  What she had was an unsatisfied craving.  We used to catch her at her desk after hours, eating chocolates and reading 'dirty' books, which she'd hide under the desk real quick.
  As for amputation, again not exactly. The last I hear she was as happy as a narcissist can be, 'digging up' dead family members.
====
> Wish you hadn't told me about the prior foot trouble, it sort of ruined the mystical qualities
>of the Power of Nancy story
====
N: Yah.  I sorta regret that.  I forgot for a moment what my daddy always said,
"Never ruin a good story with the truth."  For better and worse, he wasn't my
only parent
.====
> and I won't be able to tell anybody I know a
>real voodoo priestess anymore. :)
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:35:43 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Wheeee, Walter, quite a post!

> Of course I respect, Charles, that you decline the taking of the
> role, yet I am looking with an eye to the meaning of that in the
> story, the drama.

Excellent...

> To clarify:  Imagine someone in a psychodrama context (which i
> am aware this is not ... not quite anyway)  choosing someone to
> be their mother. The chosen person declines, or is reluctant ...
> that may reveal the very essence of the mother daughter
> relationship.  There is no cool channel in other words.

Excellent.  I was actually declining -- what exactly?

To be in the psychodrama itself, in some ways, although I'll still be on
list, and am passionately interested in the story.  Or more specifically,
to be assigned a part in the sense of an "obligation to post at certain
points", though the more flexible understanding of "roles" you suggest
later in your post may make that concern moot for me.  My specific
hesitations about being nominated as "sun" clearly have to do with my sense
that I have plenty of shadow, and am only too fond of the idea of myself as
a being of radiant light...

> Now there is an opportunity to wonder... is Apollo in the story?

Yes: he delivers the oracle (in Latin) at the beginning, and "accompanies
his lyre with song" at the final nuptials.

> Does he have a shadow?

To judge from the poetry of his oracle, he's probably integrated it.
Fierce, glorious words...

> Does the Sun decline to go into the underworld?

The Sun sets, nightly...

> What of the relationship between the gods and mortals?

Aaaah...

*

> It is of course so dear to my heart to talk about the "project
> itself" that I can't resist to come in on this.  I find the word
> project here interesting ... I am a project person ... Psybernet,
> Psyber-L etc.  Yet once they exist ... then they live ... to keep
> thinking of them as "projects" might be to throw dampers on
> them, Dolores might have taught me that.

Excellent.  I think this is a bit like the word "experiment" as it has been
variously viewed here on Psyber-L: we have experiment as adventure, unknown
possibility to attempt, and experiment as "distanced" clinical observation
of behaviors, replete with "guinea pigs" -- and not surprisingly, people
who use the word in the first sense are surprised when they are "heard" as
though they'd used it in the second.  When I was doing "experimental
poetry" in the early sixties there was nothing clinical about it, it was
like tackling an unmapped and unclimbed mountain range... but then I
*wasn't* engaged in lab psychology or any other type of scientific
discipline, and have an enormous aversion to reducing people to pigs.

For my purposes, "project" was a handy way to avoid saying "proposed
psychodrama" or the like over and over again.  I've had a difficult time
this week already avoiding saying "differing cognitive styles team game"
over and over, and finally came up with "DCSTG" as shorthand -- and I'm
always running into this kind of problem, because so much of my game work
involves the unambiguous presentation of highly ambiguous ideas.  Now I
hear how "project" can be heard as a reification of a flow, however, I'll
probably try to avoid the term.

> I wonder at which point something like the production of the
> Titanic (movie or ship for that matter) ceased to be a project but
> became the movie, the ship.

In line with the above, perhaps it will always be a "project" in one sense
for those who consider it work, and a "project" in a different sense for
those who consider their work as play...

Ships tend to be "she" to their shipwrights from the beginning, I'd say --
though to the fellow putting an oxyacetylene torch to a weld for the
thousandth hot and thirsty time, there's just a "fucking weld"...

> I have a hunch, and would like to check it with you Nancy, that
> you do not think of the psychodrama as a project.  Does that fit?

The question's for Nancy... but it's one I'd like to answer aslant, without
depriving us of her own answer.   As I say, I can now "hear" the word as
very cut-and-dried, and it certainly comes across that way to me in this
context.  Hell, I think I'll be avoiding "psychodrama" from here on in and
writing "drama of the psyche" instead, drawing on your own hint below,
Walter.

> You refer, Charles to our conversation where I said I did not
> think psychodrama could be conducted in the online situation ...
> yet I am definitely saying Yes to the suggestion Nancy has made.
> I am surprised at my shift within that short time, although what
> is happening here is unique and not at all like what I envisaged an
> online psychodrama might look like. Perhaps psychodrama is the
> wrong word, as it does evoke the specific techniques & methods
> of the group setting, at least in my mind.

> Drama of the psyche is happening here, as Nancy names it.

I think, incidentally, that another word that is given two meanings here,
and gets us confused as a consequence, is "work".  Work can mean the daily
grind to earn a living -- but it can also mean the free and passionate
expression of skills.  It's in the latter sense that the mediaevals meant
it, when they said "laborare est orare" -- to work is to pray.

Pray, play...  I wrote a book about job satisfaction once...  Picasso
called work "the ultimate seduction".

> then while in Boston shortly after our discussion, I stared writing
> up how "role reversal" might be used on line ... I think I was too
> much in the "project mode" with that ... now I feel content
> simply to go with the flow ... to "entertain a role" for a while if
> someone casts me in one, or to utterly refuse, should that be my
> need.  I can also see how I might be moved to speak in the role of
> any one of the characters, and perhaps reply as another ... even if
> someone else has written as that entity, character, god, there is
> room to expand the depth.  This way we could move flexibly
> through the roles and each bring aspects of the role to the fore,
> and do what I thought impossible to *orchestrate* ... role
> reversal on line.

I think this addresses both my wish for role reversal and my sense that the
list already had a "flow" going...

> orchestration, direction might simply emerge ... or not.  The
> drama may rise and fall in amongst other threads in psyber-L ...
> interwoven with reading "She" and other versions of the story.

Yes.

Best to all,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 22:10:01 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Power and Construction in Psyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <359AE803.7B3A@cybersurf.net>
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Robert,

I am pleased  you pick up on this discussion, I never seem to have enough
of this sort of reflection, obviously because there is a lot to learn about
this specifically for the list owner ... even if it is just dealing with
the feeling that what happens here is heavily influenced by the
"construction" that I have done.

> > Hmmm,  the very software we choose determines a lot.  The
> > software decrees that one person is the list owner.  It makes a
> > lot of difference what the list is called, what is in the
> > description and the charter.  The myriads of settings about
> > access to membership, archives etc. make a difference, and the
> > power to remove people from the list is part of the construction
> > that only the list owner has.
>
> Walter, these are real things that are of course aspects of architecture
> that are within the "power" of the list owner.  I, too, have enjoyed
> similar "power" with both the DNET and JUNG lists.  But, I don't for a
> moment see that power as very significant.  The real power lies within
> the "community" of subscribers.  Often here in psyber-l this is seen,
> especially when you shift into the role of analytical observer of the
> process that transpires.

Hmmm ... many different powers and influences ... I see them as
interrelated.  For example in the role of "analytical observer" I am
conscious that the purpose of the list and the charter influence what I
write.

An example comes to mind from situations in my work.  I saw quite a few
couples this week.  Some are there to sort out custody and access.  Others
for supervision for co-leadership in groups, others to enrich their
marriage, another to discuss the possibility of a termination.  As
analytical observer, a role that crops up at times, I need a crisp
awareness of purpose and focus, things that are relevant in one context may
not be in another.

The list's charter and even how the list is promoted will influence who
joins it, and what people do there.  There is power in words!  And there
are some places where the LO is the only one who can write them.  Imagine a
list ... Whatever-L  ... that creates a very different warm-up, to use the
psychodrama jargon.  If the list is *not* Whatever-L then the list owner or
members can remind each other what the purpose is.

~~~

> I notice that on the JUNG list, it is others who seem to be the "force"
> that gives that list life.  All my contribution amounts to is that of
> landlord who doesn't even demand rent money.  My role of listowner there
> is minimal.

I am on the list, but have not been in a position to read it.  I intend to
do that one day <laugh>.  Is it going to your satisfaction?  Is there a
charter, or focus for the list?  Clinical discussions? Some depth analysis
of specific themes?  Is it achieving your vision for it?

~~~

> However on the DNET list, my silence translates to list
> silence, my participation generally invites a busy dialogue among the
> otherwise silent aundience.

What do you make of that?  Is that ok by you?

~~~

> Yet, I see your power evident as somewhat of a parent among a horde of
> children when there are appeals to you which remind me of years past
> when my children were small:  "Papa, she touched me.  Papa, she said
> something mean to me."  And the feeling that builds up when the pleas
> are ignored, a feeling which said: "Papa, you are ignoring me and it
> hurts.  Why don't you love me anymore?"  I wonder how much of that is
> here?
>
> I hear echos of it in myself when in the past I railed against your
> hesitancy to speak "directly" to me.  I heard that again with Simon who
> felt "pushed away and dismissed" (post of May 17th).

In addition to list owner I am an active participant here and also one who
for some years called himself "the facilitator" (not now as you know) ...
so there is a complex mix that contributes to the dynamics.  The structural
elements are less important but still play a part ...

For example:

> > The members and the events will feed back into how
> > the list is structured, as you point out with my recent effort to
> > welcome people.
>
> Yes, and note how that recent change has been heard by those still
> relatively new here who did not receive that welcome message (thinking
> of Nancy).

There is a structural matter related to the welcoming.   The list
membership is open and anyone can join.  The current option is:
"* Subscription= Open, Confirm"  All I get is a note to say someone has
joined.  Recently I have been passing those onto the list but they are
fairly meaningless welcomes as I can say so little by way of introduction.


Many other options are possible, such as the prospective person getting
more information and a request to write something about their interest in
the group, and forwarding that to the LO, who could then sub them and
introduce them more fully.  It also casts the LO in a gate keeping role ...
which could lead to dilemmas about refusing membership and so on, even
being *perceived* as a gatekeeper could be a hassle.

I spoke of this once before and was close to changing it, when in a
conversation with Simon he pointed out the virtue of someone being able to
wander in here and simply check us out more or less anonymously (or
something close to that?)

I can see merit in both approaches, & how each method could lead to very
different lists.

The other interrelated option is the one we have discussed here before,
open or closed archives.  With the * Subscription= By Owner option it makes
sense to have member only archives, which does not work well in conjunction
with an open list, as anyone could get to the archives anyway.


> > I was interested in your comment about making a place for the
> > introductions.  That is an architectural decision.  One way would
> > be simply to have a page on the web with links to members intros
> > in the archives and to their home pages etc.
>
> Is there a spot on psybernet for these?

I could make one.  I will do it ... make a list of members with links to
any file in the archives and to their home pages etc.  Please let me know
if you would like to be listed on such a list.  Lets mention this from time
to time and let it evolve.  Have others had experience with this on other
lists?  NetDynam?

> And I have been listening and thinking.  I become less certain about the
> lower of a listowner.  I guess it bothers me that anyone
> could/should/would hold power over others in this kind of space.

Is this because power is linked so often to power abuse?  There is also
creative, constructive, nurturing use of power.  Parenting, teaching and so
on all involve power difference which needs to be there and used well.
Here we are thinking of the power the architect has (as well as the
listowner and host etc.)  I love to hear from architects how they see their
work influencing the life of people.  Alexander's "A Pattern Language" is
about that ... good use of design to influence lives!  Perhaps power is too
loaded a word ... yet to use it in this context it might also alert us to
the potential of power abuse.

> Cyberspace seems to be the most democratic of all spaces yet created.
> Holding power here is really only possible when others abdicate their
> personal power.

In the "holistic sense" perhaps, in that by subscribing we abdicate some
power ... I have had experience of a "sysop" deleting material in a fit of
anger.  It was very hurtful.  Such power is inherent in the structures of
cyberspace in many places.  I see it as a responsibility here, for example
that should I tire of this venture, (which is not the case at all right
now) that I would seek a suitable person to pass the list onto, not simply
pull the plug on it.


Interesting discussion and one I can do with!  Even though i have no
drastic plans, I am always thinking how Psybernet overall is evolving.  I
am also involved in consulting from time to time in the setting up of
"online environments" for organisations and thus these matters are of
interest.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 04:01:02 PDT
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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 08:22:10 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche: a PLAY...Zen slap... (dang it!)

Did you see guys what you attracted with your inattention to Shade?
  Just following your posts is a Medical advertisement.  Reminded me of Dolores
post yesterday which mentioned physical illnesses.
  Yin ( the female enegy is traditionally associated with 'dark, shadow'.
Unfortunately this sort of dicotomy in our culture is not a 'virus' that attacks ony
men.  I am shocked to find in consulting the feminist Barbara G Walker's
The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols & Sacred Objects, that to find her denial of
the patriarchal values one must look under (and remember how to Spell) Yang
in the index.
   Which brings me to:

  !)  Jung's equating
      Love  :  good
      Power:  evil

      (I haven't looked it up, guys, so correct me if I've skewed it..

and

  2) Apollo's children's:
       "Circe had recognized Media by her eyes and by the golden glance of all
   the Sun's children."
           From:Karl Kerenyi, Goddesses of Sun and Moon.

  Now, guys, we all Know about Circe and Media, don't we?

  Walter, with Hoon's help have you figured out his reference to the importance
of "3"?

Lamp:  Mom, they didn't notice that I said 'play' yesterday.  What'am I gonna do?
Mom:   I don't know, sweetie.  They're good guys and not unwilling to entertain
             consciousness, soul and the feminine.  Maybe they'll come around.
Lamp:  But, Mom, I really hate this waiting.  Maybe I'll run out of oil or somethin'
Mom:  I know you do, little one.  And I've been told that infant psyche's are
             damaged by very little 'waiting'.  I've got some extra oil for you.  Let's
             try to be patient as little longer and see what happens.  Here, climb up
             on my lap and we'll wait and watch together.
          Ok, Mom.  I'm getting sleepy.  What happens to my light if I fall asleep?
Mom:  I'm not sure yet, Babe.  Nor am I sure what happens to our Play when
          I have to report for Grand Jury Duty July 13th.  I know you don't like it,
          But we'll just have to wait and see.

                Nancy
                Mothering her own unseen Child

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 00:42:06 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
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Hello Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>, on Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:35:43
-0700 you wrote:

>In line with the above, perhaps it will always be a "project" in one sense
>for those who consider it work, and a "project" in a different sense for
>those who consider their work as play...

Project as projection?

>I think, incidentally, that another word that is given two meanings here,
>and gets us confused as a consequence, is "work".  Work can mean the daily
>grind to earn a living -- but it can also mean the free and passionate
>expression of skills.  It's in the latter sense that the mediaevals meant
>it, when they said "laborare est orare" -- to work is to pray.

Expression of skills is an SP kind of thing.  Don't forget that for the J
half of the world, it's not expression but conclusion that indicates that
something is real.

Boyfriend Phil and I were discussing his work, which is in the music
business and is not in an office or for a boss, and how I was concerned
that he had a lot of stress because of it, and seemed not to be enjoying
himself.  On the one hand I was right, in that he needs to have some
enjoyment of the process.  On the other hand, there's the work that is
towards a goal, that feels like process, and while you may not be smiling
when you do it, doesn't mean you are not enjoying it in some way.

Do we smile all the time during sex?  I think not!

-JoAnne the J, working on my day off

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:57:22 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
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It's funny, JoAnne:

And it may seem a little unfair to pick on a comment you made, andthen turn
my response into a full-on statement of my somewhat unorthodox views in the
matter of Jungian typology...

*

But the thing about Myers-Briggs style tests that utterly convinces me of
its value is the fact that about half the questions strike me as inane,
becuse *both* answers strike me not only as correct but as inextricably
intertwined, as in a marriage -- whereas the other half strike me as so
obvious as to be ridiculous, in the sense that there's *only one* possible
answer and the other is patently idiotic.

If *both* these conditions didn't obtain, I might think the tests were
fishy: but the questions where I'm so consistently on one side of the
divide (principally N vs S, but also I vs E to a large extent) show me that
the questions *do* effectively separate people according to some kind of
preference system -- while the ones where I wouldn't even begin to think of
choosing in RL (like the preference for process or product, P vs J, or
clarity or compassion (T vs F), show me that the two poles of these
particular questions *demand* balanced, "married" responses...

The implication, of course, being that if I had as much balance in my N vs
S and I vs E equations as I do in T vs F or P vs J, I'd think those
questions *too* were unanswerable...

By which I mean that, again, I wouldn't even think of choosing between them
in RL, seeing them like the twin arms of a balance beam -- though I'm
"forced to" in the utterly delimiting context of an inappropriate either-or
choice test setup.

As though the question asked was:

When you are making your way across Niagara Falls on the high wire, do you

(a) rely more on the left side of the balance beam, or
(b) think the right side of the beam is more crucial?

I feel pretty passionate about this.  It is crystal clear to me that the
center point, the fulcrum of all eight types is somehow ideal, and that I'm
working my way there with T and F pretty well united, and P and J likewise.
I'm a poet by vocation, and you simply can't write decent poetry unless
form and content, passion and precision are *both* present.  And you can't
write decent poetry either, unless you are devoted *both* to the process
and to the completed product.

Failure of passion in the presence of precision leads to academic nonsense.
Failure of precision in the presence of passion leads to Hallmark Cards.
Failure of process in the name of finished product leads to stillbirth.
Failure of product in the name of process leads to solipsistic meandering.

*

Example:

Dylan Thomas, *Do Not Go Gently*, is passionate grief and rage at his
father's passing, focused through the tightest form of which English poetry
is capable, the villanelle.  He simply couldn't have written such a thing
without the widest possible aperture to poetic process, but it was in
bringing it to completion -- with each word superbly placed, every internal
music in accord, no word choice inhibiting the flow of passion, and the
villanelle form tightly observed -- that the thing comes to have the
extraordinary power it does.

I've said it before, but the line

          Curse, bless me now with your fierce words I pray

is extraordinary for its passion not only because of the passion he, Dylan,
felt -- but also because "curse, bless" -- like Shakespeare's "insult,
exult" in As You Like It -- is a musical pairing of words that are polar
opposites in emotion, while "curse, bless, fierce, words" is an
extraordinary series of "s" ending words in that "urse" "ess" coming so
immediately upon one another in "curse, bless" are both about equally
intense, whereas the "me now with your" allows a little preparation before
"fierce", which is a sort of doubling of them, "ierce" being longer as a
dipthong than either, and the "rs" of "curse" echoing in the "rc" of fierce
-- and as can be proved upon a hundred other exquisite examples, this is
*precisely* the kind of thing that the skill of a great poet works for.

And Thomas has pulled all this off *within* the considerable contraints of
villanelle form, in a line that consists of single syllable words (allowing
for the dipthong), and without offering us a more difficult word to
understand than "fierce"...

*

So, having preached again the sacred marriage of intellection and emotion
which I am convinced lies at the heart of all art worthy of the name...

JoAnne, when you write:

> Expression of skills is an SP kind of thing.  Don't forget that for
> the J half of the world, it's not expression but conclusion that
> indicates that something is real.

I have to laugh, because the part of me that is so clearly IN and so very
distant from either E or S *knows* that there must be people for whom the
PJ divide is equally important, equally a matter of "how it is" and "how it
must be" -- but for me, P and J are the names of an inbreath and outbreath,
a listening and a responding, a conjugation of conjugals in communion.  To
me, the "free and passionate expression of skills" isn't one or the other,
"free and passionate" is the F and P of which "expression of skills" is the
T and J in an FTPJ marriage that is indissoluble for practical purposes,
though it can be analysed into its components in purely theoretical terms.

*

I'm not claiming to be right about this, JoAnne, in the sense of mandating
that everyone should be INFPs or they're somehow insensitive, or ESTJs or
they're somehow not tracking "reality".  I'm saying that the marriage of
opposites, *coniunctio oppositorum*, does happen, that it is in fact
integral to some human occupations that are worth pursuing, and that from
the perspective of the coniunctio, *none* of the paired questions in a
Myers-Briggs style test still make any sense.

In my case, I and E are slowly coming together -- I the self-assured lover
beginning to romance E, and E the bashful friend beginning to hold hands
with I.  And N is like the North Pole, on top of the world -- yet knowing
secretly that every way (and thus too the only possible way) that leads
from here, leads South...

*

Having said all of which, JoAnne, I can only conclude by offering you this
slight -- and admittedly "introverted intuitive" -- joke about the matter.

On the cross upon which Jesus the Savior was crucified, four letters were
written: INRI.

The Romans who nailed them there meant them to indicate that He claimed to
be Iesus Nazarenus Rex Ioudaiorum -- Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.
But, as the saying goes, God is not mocked, and He in His triune wisdom
knew that the day would come when INTJ and INFP and the like would be all
the rage, and He caused the qualities and typology of Messias to be
recorded there for all the world to see...

INRI.

IN: Introverted Intuitive.  Who else but an IN, after all, would retire
into the desert for forty days and nights of meditation and vision seeking?


R?  Realised: meaning that he was supremely accomplished in both head and
heart, T and F.

And the final I?  You recall that in Latin, I and J are the same letter...
He's a J.  In fact, He's very judgmental indeed.

This man, remember, is the One who at the End of Days "shall come again,
with glory, to Judge both the quick and the dead".

In hoc signo vinces...

*

Best to all...


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 21:27:44 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche: a PLAY...Zen slap... (dang it!)
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Nancy,

Psyche:  a PLAY...Zen slap... (dang it!)

> Did you see guys what you attracted with your inattention to Shade?
>   Just following your posts is a Medical advertisement.

Do you  think the guys  posts worked like needles into a voodoo doll which
causes some bodily harm to an enemy?  Our inattention to Shade ... created
the intrusion through our Open gate?  The posts somehow deserve the Medical
ad?  A sort of wild eruption of fever caused by the same virus?  You may be
right ... i cant see it myself ... perhaps a blindness to the depths ...

In my post to Robert I was chatting about the value of some form of gate
keeping ... and synchronistically we get junk mail ... and I have deleted
the sender, who had just subbed the same day.  My appreciation of the
forces of the deep go about as far as that ... though having been given the
wake-up slap I have to do better than that!

I understand that there is a big and delightful difference between posts
such as Dolores Screaming and posts about Construction!  Each will attract
something i suppose ...  I thought your specific instructions in response
to Dolores were marvelous ... as were other posts, JoAnne's, Charles, and
Dolores's own.

I can see a link between Dolores concern that the spells might bounce back
on her and attending to the holes and gates in the circle.  It is wise when
we send out a spell to create a protective circle ... the recent discussion
about gate keeping ties in with that ... even as we are vulnerable to
intrusion from the same quarters.

>   Yin ( the female enegy is traditionally associated with 'dark, shadow'.

And that is what is not attended to in the Construction post?  Do you also
see the exchange between Charles and I subject to the same virus?  I
thought the Play was advanced quite miraculously in that exchange ... we
hear about the Apollo's Oracle (in Latin) at the beginning, and that there
are to be final nuptials where we can expect more from Apollo who
"accompanies his lyre with song" at the final nuptials, just for starters!


~

May i have a word to the Lamp?  :

Little lamp, please don't worry about the source of your flame ... we know
it comes from the Sun and we know that no matter how long it takes ... at
the end of the play the Sun will be there.

I think the essay that Charles wrote were the words from the Oracle ... and
perhaps a little difficult to understand (in latin ? ... though Greek to
some) but they spoke of love and beauty, and shade ...

And that is where your job will come in when it is *really* dark!

~

> Unfortunately this sort of dicotomy in our culture is not a 'virus' that attacks ony
> men.  I am shocked to find in consulting the feminist Barbara G Walker's
> The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols & Sacred Objects, that to find her denial of
> the patriarchal values one must look under (and remember how to Spell) Yang
> in the index.

It is clear to me that male / female is not the same as masculine /
feminine ... though it often comes out that way, and the very meaning of
the words have a root in our biology and stereotypes.  However the feminine
in me is feminine!  Perhaps there is a 'virus' that inhibits her life ...

~~~

>    Which brings me to:
>
>   !)  Jung's equating
>       Love  :  good
>       Power:  evil
>
>       (I haven't looked it up, guys, so correct me if I've skewed it..

I would not have a clue ... what were you thinking of here ... how it
relates to the discussion Robert and i had?

> and
>
>   2) Apollo's children's:
>        "Circe had recognized Media by her eyes and by the golden glance of all
>    the Sun's children."
>            From:Karl Kerenyi, Goddesses of Sun and Moon.
>
>   Now, guys, we all Know about Circe and Media, don't we?

Not at all.  Though Circe it seems ties in with Circle and Church which
might again relate to the "containment questions" ....

Do we have Apollo's children in our drama?  Perhaps we do now?

~~~


>   Walter, with Hoon's help have you figured out his reference to the importance
> of "3"?

I get the gist!  Probably need another slap though!



Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:52:19 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche: a PLAY...Zen slap... (dang it!)
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Nancy,
I checked your lamp oil before tonight's performance and you have *plenty.*

Judith gone to look for the prop list

>Nancy,
>
>Psyche:  a PLAY...Zen slap... (dang it!)
>
>> Did you see guys what you attracted with your inattention to Shade?
>>   Just following your posts is a Medical advertisement.
>
>Do you  think the guys  posts worked like needles into a voodoo doll which
>causes some bodily harm to an enemy?  Our inattention to Shade ... created
>the intrusion through our Open gate?  The posts somehow deserve the Medical
>ad?  A sort of wild eruption of fever caused by the same virus?  You may be
>right ... i cant see it myself ... perhaps a blindness to the depths ...
>
>In my post to Robert I was chatting about the value of some form of gate
>keeping ... and synchronistically we get junk mail ... and I have deleted
>the sender, who had just subbed the same day.  My appreciation of the
>forces of the deep go about as far as that ... though having been given the
>wake-up slap I have to do better than that!
>
>I understand that there is a big and delightful difference between posts
>such as Dolores Screaming and posts about Construction!  Each will attract
>something i suppose ...  I thought your specific instructions in response
>to Dolores were marvelous ... as were other posts, JoAnne's, Charles, and
>Dolores's own.
>
>I can see a link between Dolores concern that the spells might bounce back
>on her and attending to the holes and gates in the circle.  It is wise when
>we send out a spell to create a protective circle ... the recent discussion
>about gate keeping ties in with that ... even as we are vulnerable to
>intrusion from the same quarters.
>
>>   Yin ( the female enegy is traditionally associated with 'dark, shadow'.
>
>And that is what is not attended to in the Construction post?  Do you also
>see the exchange between Charles and I subject to the same virus?  I
>thought the Play was advanced quite miraculously in that exchange ... we
>hear about the Apollo's Oracle (in Latin) at the beginning, and that there
>are to be final nuptials where we can expect more from Apollo who
>"accompanies his lyre with song" at the final nuptials, just for starters!
>
>
>~
>
>May i have a word to the Lamp?  :
>
>Little lamp, please don't worry about the source of your flame ... we know
>it comes from the Sun and we know that no matter how long it takes ... at
>the end of the play the Sun will be there.
>
>I think the essay that Charles wrote were the words from the Oracle ... and
>perhaps a little difficult to understand (in latin ? ... though Greek to
>some) but they spoke of love and beauty, and shade ...
>
>And that is where your job will come in when it is *really* dark!
>
>~
>
>> Unfortunately this sort of dicotomy in our culture is not a 'virus' that
>>attacks ony
>> men.  I am shocked to find in consulting the feminist Barbara G Walker's
>> The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols & Sacred Objects, that to find her
>>denial of
>> the patriarchal values one must look under (and remember how to Spell) Yang
>> in the index.
>
>It is clear to me that male / female is not the same as masculine /
>feminine ... though it often comes out that way, and the very meaning of
>the words have a root in our biology and stereotypes.  However the feminine
>in me is feminine!  Perhaps there is a 'virus' that inhibits her life ...
>
>~~~
>
>>    Which brings me to:
>>
>>   !)  Jung's equating
>>       Love  :  good
>>       Power:  evil
>>
>>       (I haven't looked it up, guys, so correct me if I've skewed it..
>
>I would not have a clue ... what were you thinking of here ... how it
>relates to the discussion Robert and i had?
>
>> and
>>
>>   2) Apollo's children's:
>>        "Circe had recognized Media by her eyes and by the golden glance
>>of all
>>    the Sun's children."
>>            From:Karl Kerenyi, Goddesses of Sun and Moon.
>>
>>   Now, guys, we all Know about Circe and Media, don't we?
>
>Not at all.  Though Circe it seems ties in with Circle and Church which
>might again relate to the "containment questions" ....
>
>Do we have Apollo's children in our drama?  Perhaps we do now?
>
>~~~
>
>
>>   Walter, with Hoon's help have you figured out his reference to the
>>importance
>> of "3"?
>
>I get the gist!  Probably need another slap though!
>
>
>
>Walter
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:21:55 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
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Charles, JoAnne

This morning rooting around in my book cache trying to locate my favorite
book to get a quote right for a conversation, I read your posts and thot it
an interesting connection. It's from my computer days Tracy Kidder's
pulitzer prize winning book The Soul of a New Machine.
The microcoder coming back from months hiking in the Vermont hills (his
process) says of how he does what he does.


"You have to understand the problem thoroughly and you have to have thought
of all the myriad ways in which you can put your microverbs together. You
have a hundred L-shaped blocks to build a building. You take all the
pieces, put them together, pull them apart, put them together. After a
while, you're like a kid on a jungle gym. There are all these constructs in
your mind and you can swing from one to the other with ease."

I think of the 8 aspects to the MBs as being in my potential self, and are
in a fluid state which can be activated...At the moment I may be an INFP,
yet I can experienceuse all of these to some to degree or another...it's
just my resistance to framing a person so concretely...but then I am an
explorer (based in another instrument);-)

So for me at the moment I am focused on S and exploring what that means to
me...well, I've cleaned up my apartment :-) but that could be about those
aspects in Virgo...

JoAnne, how do you see the aspects playing out?

Charles, when I took the MB, the psychologist said to us that we tend to
begin in one place and move to another during a life time...however, I
resonate to your <unorthodox> view... I hold what you are saying in terms
of moving from duality to paradox...meaning I am an INFP period into I am
an IEFSPJ...this also plays out in yinyang...and integration seems to me to
be the outcome which then frees one to respond with one's entire potential
self...

Cheers,
Judith


>It's funny, JoAnne:
>
>And it may seem a little unfair to pick on a comment you made, andthen turn
>my response into a full-on statement of my somewhat unorthodox views in the
>matter of Jungian typology...
>
>*
>
>But the thing about Myers-Briggs style tests that utterly convinces me of
>its value is the fact that about half the questions strike me as inane,
>becuse *both* answers strike me not only as correct but as inextricably
>intertwined, as in a marriage -- whereas the other half strike me as so
>obvious as to be ridiculous, in the sense that there's *only one* possible
>answer and the other is patently idiotic.
>
>If *both* these conditions didn't obtain, I might think the tests were
>fishy: but the questions where I'm so consistently on one side of the
>divide (principally N vs S, but also I vs E to a large extent) show me that
>the questions *do* effectively separate people according to some kind of
>preference system -- while the ones where I wouldn't even begin to think of
>choosing in RL (like the preference for process or product, P vs J, or
>clarity or compassion (T vs F), show me that the two poles of these
>particular questions *demand* balanced, "married" responses...
>
>The implication, of course, being that if I had as much balance in my N vs
>S and I vs E equations as I do in T vs F or P vs J, I'd think those
>questions *too* were unanswerable...
>
>By which I mean that, again, I wouldn't even think of choosing between them
>in RL, seeing them like the twin arms of a balance beam -- though I'm
>"forced to" in the utterly delimiting context of an inappropriate either-or
>choice test setup.
>
>As though the question asked was:
>
>When you are making your way across Niagara Falls on the high wire, do you
>
>(a) rely more on the left side of the balance beam, or
>(b) think the right side of the beam is more crucial?
>
>I feel pretty passionate about this.  It is crystal clear to me that the
>center point, the fulcrum of all eight types is somehow ideal, and that I'm
>working my way there with T and F pretty well united, and P and J likewise.
>I'm a poet by vocation, and you simply can't write decent poetry unless
>form and content, passion and precision are *both* present.  And you can't
>write decent poetry either, unless you are devoted *both* to the process
>and to the completed product.
>
>Failure of passion in the presence of precision leads to academic nonsense.
>Failure of precision in the presence of passion leads to Hallmark Cards.
>Failure of process in the name of finished product leads to stillbirth.
>Failure of product in the name of process leads to solipsistic meandering.
>
>*
>
>Example:
>
>Dylan Thomas, *Do Not Go Gently*, is passionate grief and rage at his
>father's passing, focused through the tightest form of which English poetry
>is capable, the villanelle.  He simply couldn't have written such a thing
>without the widest possible aperture to poetic process, but it was in
>bringing it to completion -- with each word superbly placed, every internal
>music in accord, no word choice inhibiting the flow of passion, and the
>villanelle form tightly observed -- that the thing comes to have the
>extraordinary power it does.
>
>I've said it before, but the line
>
>          Curse, bless me now with your fierce words I pray
>
>is extraordinary for its passion not only because of the passion he, Dylan,
>felt -- but also because "curse, bless" -- like Shakespeare's "insult,
>exult" in As You Like It -- is a musical pairing of words that are polar
>opposites in emotion, while "curse, bless, fierce, words" is an
>extraordinary series of "s" ending words in that "urse" "ess" coming so
>immediately upon one another in "curse, bless" are both about equally
>intense, whereas the "me now with your" allows a little preparation before
>"fierce", which is a sort of doubling of them, "ierce" being longer as a
>dipthong than either, and the "rs" of "curse" echoing in the "rc" of fierce
>-- and as can be proved upon a hundred other exquisite examples, this is
>*precisely* the kind of thing that the skill of a great poet works for.
>
>And Thomas has pulled all this off *within* the considerable contraints of
>villanelle form, in a line that consists of single syllable words (allowing
>for the dipthong), and without offering us a more difficult word to
>understand than "fierce"...
>
>*
>
>So, having preached again the sacred marriage of intellection and emotion
>which I am convinced lies at the heart of all art worthy of the name...
>
>JoAnne, when you write:
>
>> Expression of skills is an SP kind of thing.  Don't forget that for
>> the J half of the world, it's not expression but conclusion that
>> indicates that something is real.
>
>I have to laugh, because the part of me that is so clearly IN and so very
>distant from either E or S *knows* that there must be people for whom the
>PJ divide is equally important, equally a matter of "how it is" and "how it
>must be" -- but for me, P and J are the names of an inbreath and outbreath,
>a listening and a responding, a conjugation of conjugals in communion.  To
>me, the "free and passionate expression of skills" isn't one or the other,
>"free and passionate" is the F and P of which "expression of skills" is the
>T and J in an FTPJ marriage that is indissoluble for practical purposes,
>though it can be analysed into its components in purely theoretical terms.
>
>*
>
>I'm not claiming to be right about this, JoAnne, in the sense of mandating
>that everyone should be INFPs or they're somehow insensitive, or ESTJs or
>they're somehow not tracking "reality".  I'm saying that the marriage of
>opposites, *coniunctio oppositorum*, does happen, that it is in fact
>integral to some human occupations that are worth pursuing, and that from
>the perspective of the coniunctio, *none* of the paired questions in a
>Myers-Briggs style test still make any sense.
>
>In my case, I and E are slowly coming together -- I the self-assured lover
>beginning to romance E, and E the bashful friend beginning to hold hands
>with I.  And N is like the North Pole, on top of the world -- yet knowing
>secretly that every way (and thus too the only possible way) that leads
>from here, leads South...
>
>*
>
>Having said all of which, JoAnne, I can only conclude by offering you this
>slight -- and admittedly "introverted intuitive" -- joke about the matter.
>
>On the cross upon which Jesus the Savior was crucified, four letters were
>written: INRI.
>
>The Romans who nailed them there meant them to indicate that He claimed to
>be Iesus Nazarenus Rex Ioudaiorum -- Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.
>But, as the saying goes, God is not mocked, and He in His triune wisdom
>knew that the day would come when INTJ and INFP and the like would be all
>the rage, and He caused the qualities and typology of Messias to be
>recorded there for all the world to see...
>
>INRI.
>
>IN: Introverted Intuitive.  Who else but an IN, after all, would retire
>into the desert for forty days and nights of meditation and vision seeking?
>
>
>R?  Realised: meaning that he was supremely accomplished in both head and
>heart, T and F.
>
>And the final I?  You recall that in Latin, I and J are the same letter...
>He's a J.  In fact, He's very judgmental indeed.
>
>This man, remember, is the One who at the End of Days "shall come again,
>with glory, to Judge both the quick and the dead".
>
>In hoc signo vinces...
>
>*
>
>Best to all...
>
>
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:05:35 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche: a PLAY...Zen slap... (dang it!)

On Sat, 4 Jul 1998 21:27:44 GMT, Walter Logeman  wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>Psyche:  a PLAY...Zen slap... (dang it!)
>
>> Did you see guys what you attracted with your inattention to Shade?
>>   Just following your posts is a Medical advertisement.
>
>Do you  think the guys  posts worked like needles into a voodoo doll which
>causes some bodily harm to an enemy?
N: Well, certainly when it is doctors who devote more time, money and concern
to male issue (prostate?) than to female issues such as breast cancer, etc.  Now
that woman are 'finding their voice" (a big iss at one Chiron, Ghost Ranch
conference I attended) the balance is beginning to right itself...(ItSelf?  Why shouldn't any group collective Unc. have a collective Self to guide it, like
each of us.  Sounds right to me.)

  Our inattention to Shade ... created
>the intrusion through our Open gate?  The posts somehow deserve the Medical
>ad?  A sort of wild eruption of fever caused by the same virus?  You may be
>right ... i cant see it myself ... perhaps a blindness to the depths ...
>
>In my post to Robert I was chatting about the value of some form of gate
>keeping ...
N: Yes.  I'm glad to see you one one one with Robert.  He is rarely if ever 'up'
with the virus.  So it makes more accessible reading (for me).

 and synchronistically we get junk mail ... and I have deleted
>the sender, who had just subbed the same day.  My appreciation of the
>forces of the deep go about as far as that ... though having been given the
>wake-up slap I have to do better than that!

I had a very synchonistic day with mySelf yesterday.  It was great.  I really felt
Guided and got a lot done.
>
>I understand that there is a big and delightful difference between posts
>such as Dolores Screaming and posts about Construction!  Each will attract
>something i suppose ...  I thought your specific instructions in response
>to Dolores were marvelous ... as were other posts, JoAnne's, Charles, and
>Dolores's own.

N: Yes.  I was proud of us all.  I checked in to see about her last night and
enjoyed the exchange between Charles and Ojo (an extremely nice boy from
the Oz series)  I hoped that for Dolores her silence was 'golden'.
>
>I can see a link between Dolores concern that the spells might bounce back
>on her and attending to the holes and gates in the circle.  It is wise when
>we send out a spell to create a protective circle ... the recent discussion
>about gate keeping ties in with that ... even as we are vulnerable to
>intrusion from the same quarters.

N: That's a good thought, Walter (and hardly abstract at all).  Maybe that's
why mySelf allowed me to keep the music of Fairy Ring bubbling through the
house yesterday as I cleaned and ordered.
>
>>   Yin ( the female enegy is traditionally associated with 'dark, shadow'.
>
>And that is what is not attended to in the Construction post?  Do you also
>see the exchange between Charles and I subject to the same virus?  I
>thought the Play was advanced quite miraculously in that exchange ... we
>hear about the Apollo's Oracle (in Latin) at the beginning, and that there
>are to be final nuptials where we can expect more from Apollo who
>"accompanies his lyre with song" at the final nuptials, just for starters!

N: Yes.  I thought we were getting off to a good start.  I'm 'trying' to reread She
and finding much of value I missed 10 yrs. ago.  I'm put-off by Robert Johnson's
adopting India, the land of Suttee, as his 2nd home.  He's one I haven't met,
those we have a reader/listener (traps....hmmm...tapes from Journey Into
Wholeness) relationship of sorts.
>
~
>
>May i have a word to the Lamp?

N: Of course.

Honey, Uncle Walt want to talk with you.  Will you speak with him?
Oh, just a sec.  I want a word first, Ok?  Ok.
  Walter I didn't agree with something you said to Robert about a year ago.
I feel that in some respects we are a family here.  I feel that because I believe
that as we each continue to grow, we modify our original family complexes using
whatever me...right....we each can from our environment, particularly our
'community' whatever that may mean in this wonderful age.
  Now Sweetie,  Here's Uncle Walt for you.   :
>
>Little lamp, please don't worry about the source of your flame ... we know
>it comes from the Sun and we know that no matter how long it takes ... at
>the end of the play the Sun will be there.

Hello, Uncle Walt.....Are you a safe man for me to talk to?  I guess you must be
for Mom is nodding and smiling that it's ok.  Yes.  I'd like to stop worrying about
my light going out.  Because o' course that scares me....But you know Mom and
me don't think it's just from the Sun, cause we can't see him at night.  We think
my light's from the Moon and Stars, too.  And you know what, Uncle Walt?
Mom's showed me a.a..a ummm video about Peter.....What was it Mom?  Oh, yah.  Peter Pan.  There was a neat fairy call som'thin' Bell.  She almost went
out but then everybody clapped an' that showed they believed in her.  I got a
tingle right down to my toes when that happened.  I sorta think that's like me,
too.
  Well, maybe Mom thinks I've talked enough now. ...so...

Mom: It's ok, Little One.  I just wanted to put something in here.  The video
Hook with Robin Williams is very good for young and old.  It shows a sort of
working through for a man with a family of the Peter Pan Complex.  Highly
Recommened by Little Lamp's Mom.
  Yes. Darling, I know Bear wants us to go out and play ball, also we've got to
free up the line in case Uncle Roger calls again.  Just a minute.

>I think the essay that Charles wrote were the words from the Oracle ... and
>perhaps a little difficult to understand (in latin ? ... though Greek to
>some) but they spoke of love and beauty, and shade ...

Litle Lamp: I'm sorry I didn't understand much of it.  But I love trees and he loves
tree so I guess he must be ok.  I really liked Au...Mom, Can I call her Aunt Judith? Well, anyway I really like what she said about 'dancing with the trees'.
I'm making a crayola of it...lotsa pretty greens and swaying...Mom's writing a
haiku to go with my picture.

>
>And that is where your job will come in when it is *really* dark!
>
>~ Little Lamp, What's that thing, Mom?  Oh, ok.  Uncle Walt, I pretty scared of
the dark...I'm afraid my flame may start to waver...I hope Mr. Windy isn't coming
along, is he?
>
>> Unfortunately this sort of dicotomy in our culture is not a 'virus' that attacks ony
>> men.  I am shocked to find in consulting the feminist Barbara G Walker's
>> The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols & Sacred Objects, that to find her denial of
>> the patriarchal values one must look under (and remember how to Spell) Yang
>> in the index.
>
>It is clear to me that male / female is not the same as masculine /
>feminine ... though it often comes out that way, and the very meaning of
>the words have a root in our biology and stereotypes.  However the feminine
>in me is feminine!  Perhaps there is a 'virus' that inhibits her life ...

N:  Hmmm...I'm not so sure about that Walter.  Has a sort of Father Complex
flavor to me.  But then only you can truly know your complexes.
  For me is isn't a dicotomy but a 'tricotomy.  What's that, Little Lamp?  Yes.
your right.  It does look funny.  I may have just made it up, but I think 'Uncle
Walt' will know what I mean.
  There is the inner and outer.

                      female  : male
                   feminine  : malculine
                           and the
  archetypal feminine : archetypal masculine

For me the third is where I feel the important work of Psyber-L is to be done.
For unlike some I DO believe that the archetypes can change and grow.  And
that such work as this may be vital, may even be our only salvation as we
move into the 21st Century with all nations (at all psychic levels of development)
soon to have the nuclean bomb.
  Yes.  Dear it did make a pretty picture.  Hmmm...you're right...it looks a little like
you.  No wonder it so pretty.

>
>~~~
>
>>    Which brings me to:
>>
>>   !)  Jung's equating
>>       Love  :  good
>>       Power:  evil
>>
>>       (I haven't looked it up, guys, so correct me if I've skewed it..
>
>I would not have a clue ... what were you thinking of here ... how it
>relates to the discussion Robert and i had?

N:  I'll have to do some 'looking' myself, Walter and perhaps get back to you
on this.
  Yes.  I know.  Bear is getting impatient for his ball game.
>
>> and
>>
>>   2) Apollo's children's:
>>        "Circe had recognized Media by her eyes and by the golden glance of all
>>    the Sun's children."
>>            From:Karl Kerenyi, Goddesses of Sun and Moon.
>>
>>   Now, guys, we all Know about Circe and Media, don't we?
>
>Not at all.  Though Circe it seems ties in with Circle and Church which
>might again relate to the "containment questions" ....

N: Sorry.  I can't quit tie in with where you're coming from in this moment (haiku
is always in THE moment...very good for Intuitives.)
  Charles said something about not wanting to turn ______ into pigs.
  Circe.....
   There's a nice cool breeze blosing scattering my thoughts.....  That's right, hon,  put on that shade I made you.
   There's a wonderful episode of Northern Exposure where Shelley, about to
give birth runs into a Support Group in the forest facilitated by Mother Nature.
Media is there, Queen Victoria, Napolean's mother and Media.
   Shelley in awe says to Media, "You offed your kids?"
    It seems to me (probably being a female chavinist for a moment) that many
men bring about this 'soul offing' for their children with their inattention to the
needs of the feminine, both inner and outer.
   One could explore that from an animus viewpoint also, but Bear is rearing.
>
>Do we have Apollo's children in our drama?  Perhaps we do now?

N: Perhaps we do, or will.  Here again, from this not-so-humble viewers notion
Many men (and animi?)  Force there children to carry the deep shadows that
the Sun does not own.
>
>~~~
>
>
>>   Walter, with Hoon's help have you figured out his reference to the importance
>> of "3"?
>
>I get the gist!  Probably need another slap though!

N: Mine own face is still stinging from mine own slap yesterday and mine own
Agean Stables call.  But"
    I don't know if this is Charles first child or not.  But it is a big step for a couple
when they admit a child to the charmed circle of two
   Three is also a difficult psychic number (Von Franz, I think)  An uncomfortable
place to be as one works and waits for the veil to be lifted and for the relative
comfort and balance of Four to manifest.

>
>
>
  Nice chatting with you, Walter

  Here's my hand on it,
                                       Nancy
                                       Of the firm shake.
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:15:01 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche: a PLAY...Zen slap... (Judith exempt)

On Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:52:19 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:

>Nancy,
>I checked your lamp oil before tonight's performance and you have *plenty.*
>
>Judith gone to look for the prop list

N:  Thanks, Judith.  I and Little Lamp are both greatly relieved.
      What's that:   Oh.  Little Lamp wants me to ask if you (Aunt Jusith?) are
coming with us into the dark underworld.  She says she wants to hold your
hand, if you are.
>
>>Nancy,
   Ok, ok, you two.  I'm coming.  Yes.  Right NOW.
>>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:30:53 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Circe and Media / Medea
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy:

Stuff triggered by your quote from Kerenyi:

::  Circe had recognized Media by her eyes and by the golden glance
::  of all the Sun's children.

Confusion here, I think.  Medea (not Media) was Circe's aunt, at least
according to Graves.  And apart from the fact that that's (I imagine) a
misspelling which might mislead the unwary reader down McLuhanesque
byways...

> Now, guys, we all Know about Circe and Media, don't we?

No, I don't think we do.  Some of us are Jungians, or otherwise mythically
inclined, some not.  So my own sense is that we need to get make our mythic
references in ways which invite those not familiar with the myths to
participate.  I mostly forget to do this, but I think it's important...

So who -- we're with the Argonauts mid way through the Odyssey now, on
Circle's Island, I take it -- were the Sun's children in the context of the
passage you quoted?  Who is Circe?  Medea?  What's the action at this point
in the story?  And how did we (argonauts) get here?


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 14:38:06 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Circe and Media / Medea <zs>

On Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:30:53 -0700, Charles Cameron  wrote:

>Nancy:
>
>Stuff triggered by your quote from Kerenyi:
>
>::  Circe had recognized Media by her eyes and by the golden glance
>::  of all the Sun's children.
>
N: From GODDESSES OF SUN AND MOON by karl Kerenyi, pg  23, last
paragraph is where I was yesterday.  If there is a problem with Kerenyi's version
of Greek genealogy, take it up with him.

    Thanks (on behalf of any who may care) for spelling correction.  Circe
in my Webster's New World Dictionary, compact school and office, ed.
    Jason was Media's misbegotten consort.  I think most of us 'here' know
the way to the library if anythang (s to Judith) if something here hooks there
attention enough so they care to make the trip

    Have a good day, Charles.

    Nancy
    Cleaning own her house, doing laudry  and fielding calls from both sons, who have too long carried their father's shadow.

>Confusion here, I think.  Medea (not Media) was Circe's aunt, at least
>according to Graves.  And apart from the fact that that's (I imagine) a
>misspelling which might mislead the unwary reader down McLuhanesque
>byways...
>
>> Now, guys, we all Know about Circe and Media, don't we?
>
>No, I don't think we do.  Some of us are Jungians, or otherwise mythically
>inclined, some not.  So my own sense is that we need to get make our mythic
>references in ways which invite those not familiar with the myths to
>participate.  I mostly forget to do this, but I think it's important...
>
>So who -- we're with the Argonauts mid way through the Odyssey now, on
>Circle's Island, I take it -- were the Sun's children in the context of the
>passage you quoted?  Who is Circe?  Medea?  What's the action at this point
>in the story?  And how did we (argonauts) get here?
>
>
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 12:03:49 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      about that essay of mine
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Nancy, Walter, all:

Walter says:

>I think the essay that Charles wrote were the words from the Oracle..

And Litle Lamp says:

> I'm sorry I didn't understand much of it.  But I love trees and he
> loves tree so I guess he must be ok.

Funny business, that.  Let me give you a little context.

I woke up at 4:30 am and wrote it, had it edited to my satisfaction and
posted by 6:40 am, and then kept on writing and editing until 12 noon, at
which point I posted the six-page "game design document" I'd just written
to a computer games publisher who has been soliciting game ideas from me.
The title of the game is "LifeTree", and it's all about the same idea, the
phototropism that produces branching in trees.

That game idea may feed my family for the next year or two, who knows.

*

Okay.  First off, the essay wasn't meant to be easy reading, it wasn't
meant to be anything other than getting an idea out at 4:30 in the morning,
since it woke me up and wanted to take a stroll.

Second, it *isn't* easy reading, but then neither is Gerard Manley Hopkins,
my favorite poet.  I do think it's well written, however, for being exactly
the strange thing it is.  A friend to whom I also sent it wrote back:

::  The way the words twine and twin, branching always, entraining
::  tendrils unfurling two ways at once. How the shadows light at
::  paradise falls ...

so I reckon it works for some.  But as I said, it's pretty difficult,
pretty strange.

Three, I think it's strange that way for a reason -- because I needed to do
a sort of "core dump" of all the peripheral ideas related to Trees and the
way branching "happens" for them, in order to get to the game part without
distraction.  If I'd tried to write them in the reverse order (and I didn't
have the game idea first, so I couldn't have written it first in any case,
but if i had...) I'd have cluttered the game idea with so much other stuff
I'd have been editing away for another six hours -- and retaining bits I
should have chopped because I liked them, not because they were part of the
game design...

So it was a pretty weird and wild experience for me.  I'm not used to
waking at 4:30am, I'm not used to needing to write weird, difficult to read
essays -- though I enjoy it -- and above all I'm not used to seeing the old
unconscious come up with a detailed idea for a computer game in eight hours
straight form first clue to finished presentation!

But about the piece itself...

Really, it's simple -- the "idea" I mean -- and consists almost entirely of
the meanings of two words: "phototropism", and "simplex".

*

Simplex is a delicious word, and one we've needed for a long time.  The
science fiction writer Samuel Delany was the one who came up with it, I
think, and it means "simple and complex at the same time", or perhaps
"complex is a profoundly simple way", or "simple in essence, but with a
profoundly complex expression".

But those are words.  Let's move to images, where the idea suddenly becomes
a whole lot clearer.

A tree.  Think of a tree, see it in your mind's eye.  You can't exactly say
it's "complex", because all it is is something reaching for light and
branching.  Pretty simple.  It's all right there in the first shoot and the
first couple of side shoots, as Hoon saw.  A crocus, stem and two buds.
Simple.

But on the other hand it's a mighty and tall and particular Oak.  With many
great limbs, a profusion of branches, more twigs than you can shake a stick
at.  Just trying to count the twigs, and name which of the branches each
one was on, would give you an idea of just how complex the thing is.
Complex.  Way complex.  At the opposite end of the pole from "simple".

So Delany said, some things, some very interesting things we'd like to talk
about, are like this: utterly complex, but profoundly simple.  Like a tree.
Let's call such things "simplex" -- and call the quality they have
"simplexity". Okay?

That's half my essay, and half the game too.

*

Then, since we're on the subject of trees, which branch, let's ask why they
branch.

And the answer which soimeone gave me a long time back, and which I suppose
had been buried somewhere deep in the old memory banks for years, slowly
absorbing nutrients and reaching up toewards consciousness again, is that
trees branch because they want to "eat" as much sunlight as possible.

So the first thing to do is to come up from the seed to the surface, in as
near a vertical ascent as possible.  And that thrust gives you the trunk.
Next, if the trunk had one whopping big leaf at the top of it, the tree
could still get a bit more sun by pushing a couple of limbs out to the
side, with another big leaf at the end of each.  That's the branching
principle right there: branch, and you get more sunlight.  And what trees
(and plants) have found -- with some delightfully delicious variations
between the oaks and the weeping willows and the poplars and the quaking
aspens and the rest -- is that if trunk branches to limbs which branch to
branches (doh!) which branch to twigs which all have little leaves on them,
you can sop up a lot of sunlight.

And the "biology" of trees is that they do that, each according to his or
her kind.

The term for this (useful shorthand or irritating jargon according to
taste) is phototropism.  And lo, there's my other word.  Trees are simplex
because they're phototropic.  They are light-seeking organic whatsies that
branch in order to get more of their leaves into more positions of
sunlight, so they can feast.

The name of the feast is "photosynthesis", and it basically turns gold into
green, which is an important business too, but I'm not getting into that in
my game or my essay, or at least not yet.

And the path along all the branching branchings from trunk to leaf is what
gives each tree it's extroardinary shape -- because each leaf is trying to
find a place that's not too shady by growing and branching just far enough
away from the nearby leaves to find "its own place in the sun".

So, phototropism means having an affinity for light, and reaching for it,
and trees are phototropic entities using the branching method to assure
there's plenty of green gold.

Alchemists, in fact.  No wonder we like them so much.

That's the other half of my essay, and of my game.

*

So both the essay and the game basically say the two words "phototropic
simplexity", and that's it.

The essay expresses the meaning of those two words in a highly complex way,
but the image behind them is profoundly simple -- a tree -- so it's a
"simplex" essay, in which as my friend says, "the words twine and twin,
branching always"...

And the game will be a far simpler expression, from the player's point of
view -- though doing the design and coding will be an immensely complex
task.

The whole game will take place in a tree, and the player will be a little
light-seeking probe, a "leaf" in search of a place to unfurl -- starting
from the seed and moving up into the trunk, and making choices --
branching, picking a limb -- moving along that limb to the next choice --
picking a branch -- moving along the branch to the next choice -- picking a
twig -- moving along to the tip of the twig, and then unfurling.

And all the way along, the choices will be choices of position, choices of
which position the player thinks will provide more sunlight, made in
semi-competition with other leaves and other branches.

*

And because humans also make choices, and because very different sequences
of human choices can lead to the vast profusion of different human genii
that we call Albert Einstein and Wolfgang Mozart and Helen Keller and
Rembrandt van Rijn and Napoleon Bonaparte and Marie Curie, each leaf that a
player "winds up at" at the end of the game, at the twig tip, will also be
a "great person" for them to learn about.

And because the architecture of computer games follows the same "branching"
pattern in its logic that trees follow in their growing and the human
family in its exploration of diversity, what I'm calling the "Oak" (with
branches and leaves) and the "Philosophic Tree" (with branches and great
human beings) will "fit' the very way that games are created. very nicely.

Now, all this is simple, if you keep your eye on the Tree -- and very
complex, if you get lost in the branches and choices and words and leaves:
if you can't see the Tree for the leaves.

*

How's that, eh?  How am I doing?

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 12:47:12 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Circe and Media / Medea <zs>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy:

Wow, what a riposte!

The problem I have, Nancy, is not that you didn't tell me which book by
Kerenyi you were quoting from, but that I don't have that book.
Unfortunately, I had to sell about 20 Kerenyi tiutles along with my Freud
Standard Edition and Jung Collected Works to pay the rent last year.

The reason I pointed out a spelling mistake, when I see dozens every day --
and generally correct them silently when quoting people back to themselves
but otherwise don't mention them at all -- is that I found your post
interesting and confusing.  In other words I valued it, but wasn't at all
sure about Media.

Media has a meaning, and in this world of cybersapce it's an important one.

I don't know the Odyssey very well, and I wasn't sure whether there was a
"Media" in it, so I got up and fetched my Graves *Greek Myths* and found
there was a Medea associated with Circe -- something I didn't know before,
and wouldn't have guessed, since I associate Circe with Homer and Medea
with Sophocles or one of the other tragedians -- and I thought that in the
context of your question,

> Now, guys, we all Know about Circe and Media, don't we?

it was an important point.  Otherwise -- if I hadn't valued your post, and
the question you raised about how much we know -- I wouldn't have gone to
the trouble.

*

However, your reply seems to me so curt and dismissive that I'm hurt, and
angry for being hurt.  You write about my offering a correction for your
spelling mistake -- which you have now repeated -- with the words:

> Thanks (on behalf of any who may care) for spelling correction.

I care.  Anyone trying to figure out what "media" might have to do with
mythology might care -- and my purpose was to make life a little easier for
them, to save them the trouble of thinking about "Media" the way Walter
thought about "Circe", seeing a possible reference to "circle" and "church"
in the name (I have no idea whatsoever whether there's any correlation with
their one, Walter may have been speaking from knowledge or he may have been
guessing).

I wanted (and still want) the list to understand what you're getting at.

So I read your words "Thanks (on behalf of anyone who may care)" as
dismissive, both of me for bothering to try to get things straight, and of
anyone else who values language enough to care...

And I think spelling and grammar and punctuation are parts of the
politeness of written communication -- because they indicate you care
enough for the person you're writing to to make your meaning clear -- in
much the same way that not mumbling into one's beer is a part of the
politeness of speech.  Politeness as such I don't care much about, but care
and consideration in language is something I do care about, and respect.

And my wife is slowly teaching me to care about politeness in general, too,
social slob that I am.

*

And no, I don't know about Circe and Medea.  I only just discovered that
Medea existed in the Odyssey, and that she was Circe's aunt.  I don't know
how they interacted, or what their story was.  So I asked you.

The "curt" part of my comment above was directed to the fact that you
*didn't* answer my questions:

> So who -- we're with the Argonauts mid way through the
> Odyssey now, on Circle's Island, I take it -- were the Sun's
> children in the context of the passage you quoted?  Who is Circe?
> Medea?  What's the action at this point in the story?  And how
> did we (argonauts) get here?

The closest you got to a response to this was the suggestion we go look in
a library if we care:

> I think most of us 'here' know the way to the library if anythang
> (s to Judith) if something here hooks there attention enough so
> they care to make the trip

I can't remember the last time I went to a library.  Much of the time I
have an autistic child to keep an eye on, almost all of the time I have a
three year old to watch out for, my wife is nine months pregnant, I write
and edit about 3,000 words in an average day, maybe more -- and the nearest
decent library is about 45 miles away.

Really Nancy, I think you'd be doing us all a service if you told us a
little more about the things you know about and mention.  Let me say it
again: we're not all Jungians by a long stretch -- and I've even been
workinjg on a manuscript about mythologic for ten years, and *I* don't know
the Medea and Circe episode you're referring to -- have a little
consideration.

*

Still somehow hoping you'll enjoy my long post to you about trees this
morning, and that it will make the "impenetrable thicket" of my essay a
little easier to understand...

Miffed -- but that's a short term phenomenon, so don't worry,

and soon no doubt once again to wish you the very best,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 17:14:11 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Circe and Media / Medea <zs>

Charles, I wrote you a longish post.  My computer froze.  I saved.  Had to shut
down.  Booted up.  Tried to retreive and was presented with what you see
below.  I don't have a clue to what it means to either of us.  Perhaps you do?
Maybe we'll have to call in the 'Ants'.
  Petty ...pretty much all I want is produced by the magic of SNAP's gateway to
the magic of WWW.

  My best wishes and regards to you and yours.

  Nancy,
   With all humanity's authentic efforts to deal with whatever the Fates put on
there always overflowing plates.


So much media, so little time.
Who keeps track of it all?

<Picture>

By Bob Andelman
Distributed by Universal Press Syndicate

------------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS WEEK:
A MR. MEDIA EXCLUSIVE:: An interview with CNBC talk show host Charles Grodin . . . MSNBC's got Sonny Bono . . .
Johnny Cash goes behind the scenes for Interview magazine . . .
The New York Times goes shopping . . .



------------------------------------------------------------------------


Plus Mr. Media's Web Sites of the Week: Hot Wheel Heaven, Monterey Bay Aquarium, Audionet, Gajoob, The Backgrounds Archive, Star Wars: The New Republic and Fortune Cookie!


------------------------------------------------------------------------
He's mad as hell
But now Charles

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:59:48 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro, or shade and light dappled together
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Charles,

Awesome/ahha-some!

> Trees we know

the concept and the reality that leads us to recognise tree from other
plant though trees are notoriously different from each other in size,
shape, colour, density, and decoration called "leaf".

> I as writer can refer you, reader, safely to them, "trees",
> in trust that the word I use will signal to you too -- triggering for you,
> also -- pretty much the assortment of branching organic thingies about
> which I'm hoping to communicate

yepp! them is trees all right ...

> seeking, if clumped together seek in an avoidance of each other's seeking,
> growing, thus space-sharing in ways which as the wind sweeps and conforms
> them to its own simplex flows, shapes them to a common curve we call
> aerodynamic, highlit against the sky huddled together

sounds like we've changed topics here and are now talking about
ourselves.  Individuation within the collective conscious and
unconscious - seeking interdependency rather than co-dependecy or
independence (aloneness/isolation), congenial corelationships

> Clustered together, too, and shaped by the winds' patterns of flow, these
> individual symplexities combine on an English hilltop (or where you will)
> to form yet other beauties.

and I see here the clusterings in cyberpsace to build psyberspace,
clusterings of choice, clusterings of individuals subject to the
vagaries of cyberspace breezes and becalmed moments (server down)

> I love trees.  Want to talk about simplexities, beauty.

like carving a name into a tree to mark our passing to become some way
immortal and watching over the years how an act of carving in one's
youth becomes metamorphosized into something more than the initial act,
yet something different for both "self" and tree

> Beauty is one simplexity perceived by another: the eye of the beholder,
> with optic nerve, "brain", branching neuron paths that other simplexity,
> "consciousness" the perceiving.

and this simple rendering of complex concept into word is the only way
in which we can grasp the infinite variety of everything in order to
speak with one another, speaking in semiotic codes, speaking with
simplexity to dare approach that which lies behind words such as:
beauty, love, anger, hate, light, shadow, other, I, Thou ...

> That all is jostle, striving -- a strife for life, in which the outcome
> overall is for each a "place in the sun" but not without skirmishes,
> shadows.  The overall picture, therefore, beautiful -- but this overall
> beauty hard to perceive when the specific shadow falls in the specific
> sought place of the moment, the "available" is not available, and the
> strife of the moment is paramount.

ah, the poet contained in prose!  A beautiful portrait of PSYBER-L ...

> Differentiation for maximal tropism at all levels -- life seeking always
> the light, honey, beauty, is always and everywhere in conflict also with
> itself, competitive: and competition the necessary act of the avoidance of
> shadow, and the shadow creating act.

and with this said, the words of forgiveness come easy, both forgiveness
of "other" and that of "self" ... life as a transcendent striving, even
here ...

> It is at this juncture, at this branching, that we are "expelled from the
> garden" -- can no longer see the beauty that is and remains overall, that
> can allow us to say also, "we are never outside the garden" -- for the
> dappling of light on and among the leaves has become to us, too closely
> jostled, shadow.
>
> And shadow for shadow we jostle, and life is strife.

expelled, yet still within ... expelled by our own blinding by the
shadows and the fragments of light that touch and transform ... within
the community of communities sharing light and shadow reaching forever
upwards, transcending "self" ...

> The dappling of light on leaves, beautiful, is for each shadowed leaf,
> shadow, death-dealing, is for each lit leaf, light, life-giving: a
> chiaroscuro, beautiful, see.

yes, Charles, beautiful ...... chiaroscuro ....

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:59:59 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Circe and Media / Medea
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Charles, Nancy ... all,

What I have found:  Circe is Medea's aunt (Stapleton, 1978).  Media is
the country that was named after either Medea or her son by Aegeus,
Medeus.

I can't find any references that put them together other than in a poem
about Medusa written by the poet Armstrong (Imitations of Shakespeare):

:: Now blows the surly North and chills throughout
:: The stiffening regions, while by stronger charms
:: Than Circe e'er or fell Medea brewed,

My understanding of Nancy's question:

> Now, guys, we all Know about Circe and Media, don't we?

doesn't have these two ladies together in one adventure but as two
ladies who used treachery to achieve their own ends, two ladies who
interestingly are related.

Now, how is that seen here is PSYBER-L?  I see that this could be in
reference to how a number of us (male and female) have been
triggered/transformed into reacting less than the best we could given
the words/spell cast; that we fall or almost fall prey to plots that
seek to blind us from the real story(s) behind the words spoken ...

But then again, I may be so far out in my understanding that I might not
even be in the same universe ...

> So who -- we're with the Argonauts mid way through the Odyssey now, on
> Circle's Island, I take it -- were the Sun's children in the context of the
> passage you quoted?  Who is Circe?  Medea?  What's the action at this point
> in the story?  And how did we (argonauts) get here?

Agos, the ship (PSYBER-L) --- Argus, the ship-builder (Walter)
Argonauts (Psyberians, one and all - including Walter)
Circe - temptress transforming (I remember Dolores as mermaid)
Medea - plots, slight of word, finding enemy in friend, fleeing ( ???? )

Robert
... unable to go golfing because it is raining, again

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 20:29:51 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Circe and Media / Medea <zs>
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998070417141237@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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drunk ants parse

***

froze.  I
saved.
below.

magic regards
you and
yours.

efforts
deal
Fates always

media, so
time
keeps all?

Universal scenes
Times Media's
Fortune!

mad as hell
But now
options leave HELP

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 20:39:47 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Circe and Media / Medea <zs>

Aaargh!  Hoon, This is as far over to the left as my puter will let me read
     your post!  Or any other tonight.
       I read this much of Roberts's also.  LLamp wanted me to say that we found
     site on Greek mythology (2nd page of SNAP search under "mythology" (the
     quotes are impota...important.  AnyHoo'  It said that Helios was granfather to
      Medea and father to Circe.  We found it interesting that it took my repeat
      typo: Media into it (0 misspelling allowed)  little greek heart and answered
      any....way.

      Nancy
      Hoping she doesn't die in her sleep of curiousity.
      Tomorrow puter is likely to be 'centered' again.

On Sat, 4 Jul 1998 20:29:51 -0500, sc  wrote:

>drunk ants parse
>
>***
>
>froze.  I
>saved.
>below.
>
>magic regards
>you and
>yours.
>
>efforts
>deal
>Fates always
>
>media, so
>time
>keeps all?
>
>Universal scenes
>Times Media's
>Fortune!
>
>mad as hell
>But now
>options leave HELP
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 21:58:01 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Circe and Media / Medea <Zen Snap)

On Sat, 4 Jul 1998 20:39:47 -0400, Nancy Smith  wrote:

     >half
> >>frozen
> >>always,
>
>>> hel
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 4 Jul 1998 23:36:06 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche: a PLAY...Zen slap... (Judith exempt)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hummmm,,,,

>On Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:52:19 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:
>
>>Nancy,
>>I checked your lamp oil before tonight's performance and you have *plenty.*
>>
>>Judith gone to look for the prop list
>
>N:  Thanks, Judith.  I and Little Lamp are both greatly relieved.
>      What's that:   Oh.  Little Lamp wants me to ask if you (Aunt Jusith?) are
>coming with us into the dark underworld.  She says she wants to hold your
>hand, if you are.

Well, Aunt Judith is out looking for a splunker light...not found on the
prop list BTW...as well as the travel book of useful foreign phrases...also
a supply of Reese's Pieces...do the bats like chocolate?

So tell Little Lamp I'm packing my stuff and thanks for the hand
Auntie
>>
>>>Nancy,
>   Ok, ok, you two.  I'm coming.  Yes.  Right NOW.
>>>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:12:37 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche: a PLAY...Zen slap... (Judith exempt)

On Sat, 4 Jul 1998 23:36:06 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:

>Hummmm,,,,
>
>>On Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:52:19 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:
>>
>>>Nancy,
>>>I checked your lamp oil before tonight's performance and you have *plenty.*
>>>
>>>Judith gone to look for the prop list
>>
>>N:  Thanks, Judith.  I and Little Lamp are both greatly relieved.
>>      What's that:   Oh.  Little Lamp wants me to ask if you (Aunt Jusith?) are
>>coming with us into the dark underworld.  She says she wants to hold your
>>hand, if you are.
>
>Well, Aunt Judith is out looking for a splunker light...not found on the
>prop list BTW...as well as the travel book of useful foreign phrases...also
>a supply of Reese's Pieces...do the bats like chocolate?
>
>So tell Little Lamp I'm packing my stuff and thanks for the hand
>Auntie

Little Lamp:  Oh, wookie!  Oh, Mom,  she doesn't think I'm 'funny'!  I feel like she
really sees and understands me.  Oh, Joy!  I just love Reeses peices.  Oh, please, Aunt Judith, please bring lots.  I wants havanuf to giive to all my new
friends here...except...
Mom: Now, Hon, lets wait and see.  Some that don't seem your friends now,
may turn out to be your very best in a time of trouble.
Little Lamp: Ok, Mom.  But I Am so glad that Auntie Judith is coming along.  There's something about her that I feel like chases away all the scary shadows.
Mom:  I think it's because she been able to come face to face with them, and face them down in here 'real' life, Little Lamp.  I think that's why she has that
 quality. That and she's retained her ability for unstructured, come-as-it-may
play.
Little Lamp: You think that's it, Mom?
Mom:  Yes.  I think it's a very feminine quality.  Partaking of the 'Wise
 Old Woman' archetype.
Little Lamp:  Mom,  do you think that bats will try to get all our Reese's Pieces"
Mom:  No.  I think they eat mostly insects.  So maybe we won't be bothered
by any nits or insects on our trip below ground.
Little Lamp:  Oh, good.  Ya know, I can hardly wait for the Underground part, Now that I know that Auntie Judith will be there to hold my hand.  Even if Mr. Windy is there, and blows ever so hard.
Mom:  OK, sugar.  I'm glad you feel better about that part.  But don't forget.  We
really don't know quite where we're starting yet.  I think the last thing was
 Charles and Walter at the Oracle cave.
Little Lamp: Oh, I did forget Mom.  I got so excieted about Aunt Judith and the
Reese's Pieces.  But you're right.  We sure don't want to make the journey
alone, so we'd better wait for the group to decide where we're at now, and
what the next step should be.
Mom: Good for you, babe.  Now let's settle down.  We just might have a busy
day tomorrow.



>>>>Nancy,
>>   Ok, ok, you two.  I'm coming.  Yes.  Right NOW.
>>>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:35:13 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro

Ojojojo, That reminds me of Jo in little women  (about which I have written)
  I hope you had a good day working on your day off.  And that the visist from
your mother brought some satisfaction, despite it admitted difficulties in the Mother/
daughter relationship.  Do they ever end?  I know mine never did.  Though I
continure to hope that mine own with mine own daughter (at least one of them)
will.  My own mother died 'Over the rainbow' in 'Never Never Land'...many say
that despite her hardly held (or because of it?) Fundamentalist Religion, that
she committed Selficide.  I don't know. Only that I have a large unresolveable
empty spot in my psyche, because of our failure to reach any amiacable closure.
  Since you value 'closure' ever more than I, may it be different for you.
  Do I understand you correctly?  Do you say that you test ISTJ?
  If so, god knows we need the balance here.  I particularly welcome it because,
oddly....my last and most dear Jungian Analyst was (is?) ISFJ.
  Best to you and yours,

   Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:37:08 +1200
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Thompson <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
In-Reply-To:  <l03130304b1c346cee2e6@[38.29.10.118]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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thanks for the essay and replies...

beautiful topics beautiful writing styles and yeah
generally good.

g'd'n'ya
---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
                ( miles )

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Jul 1998 08:39:54 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche: a PLAY...Zen slap... (Judith exempt)
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(Unbeknownst to the three explorers, three ants have crawled up and under a
loose seam on Judith's climbing shorts.)

One ant says to the other:

 "Do you think we'll be missed by the others?"

The ant's two pals exchange a knowing glance but do not respond.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Jul 1998 10:01:54 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche: a PLAY...Zen snap.. (Judith, Hoon exempt)

On Sun, 5 Jul 1998 08:39:54 -0500, sc  wrote:

>(Unbeknownst to the three explorers, three ants have crawled up and under a
>loose seam on Judith's climbing shorts.)
>
>One ant says to the other:
>
> "Do you think we'll be missed by the others?"
>
>The ant's twee (?) pals exchange a knowing glance but do not respond.
>
>***
>
>HooN
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Jul 1998 07:21:19 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      I heard Dolores' crying in my dream.
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Dolores

I just woke up.
I heard your crying in my dream, vividly.
  You sat on a chair in a dark room.
 The room was situated below the earth.
 Only one desk and one chair.
 In front of the room, black curtains were hung from the ceil.
There was no light there.

You opened your eyes, and stretched out your hands.
suddenly, the curtains disappeared.
     soft  light....

Oh, it's not you, it's me.
Before my eyes, large grassland  was unfolded.
Far away, I saw the ocean and bright sun above the horizon.

And.... you was shouting as in your email.

>Now, I am alone, me, the darkness, no sounds of traffic, just my
thoughts
>and the stuccatto tap tap of my fingers, the whir of the innerds of
the computer and the >screaming is started. It brings tears to my
eyes, and I push it back, because I can't afford to go >there. Tears
that are hot on
>my cheeks and I push the screaming back..and who of you is wise
enough, to know how I do >that? Three guesses to any that care.
>It is before your eyes.
>Its always been before your eyes.

I woke up.
I realized whose is the voice of my dream.

http://www.altx.com/audio/

      In Alt-X Audio #4, a man's soft voice and a woman's
                                     plaintive voice and electric
sounds like screaming.

           She said, "please answer me"
                         "would you please call me"
                         "please come and see me, this afternoon"
                        " I can't sleep tonight"
                       " This is your mother's calling"
                       " I am alone, here"
                       "listen to me, dear"

In   Alt-X Audio #3

               A girl's scraming, "  Oh my god! "

Your voice was mixing various voices.

          - Screaming behind cursing.-
           I love Medea and can understand her despair and acts.
Of course......That cursing (& killing)returns to herself.
   like Orestes, she would not have slept
                 again without reconciliation with herself
  < hmmm....  forgiveness of the sky(God and Goddess)
       ,according to mythodology >
 Nevertheless, at that moment, she would be forced to act like that
 by the force of fate.
(even if her fate depends on her character and expectation to life)

love

Meeseo

Ps: 1.
I send a beautiful rose to you.

http://www.sheltonbbs.com/~rich/rose.htm

2. You can still be loved and love in internet.
http://www.paknews.net/test/try.htm
http://members.aol.com/DooWopMiss/CATPAWSHUG.html

3. And you have capacity to do something for someone

     Please Help This Page Get 1,500,000 hits.
    Previous goal was 500,000.

http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Tower/3756/

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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Jul 1998 18:37:17 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
In-Reply-To:  <l03130304b1c346cee2e6@[38.29.10.118]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hello Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>, on Fri, 3 Jul 1998 19:57:22
-0700 you wrote:

>It's funny, JoAnne:
>
>And it may seem a little unfair to pick on a comment you made, andthen turn
>my response into a full-on statement of my somewhat unorthodox views in the
>matter of Jungian typology...

I don't feel picked on, so don't worry.

>JoAnne, when you write:
>
>> Expression of skills is an SP kind of thing.  Don't forget that for
>> the J half of the world, it's not expression but conclusion that
>> indicates that something is real.
>
>I have to laugh, because the part of me that is so clearly IN and so very
>distant from either E or S *knows* that there must be people for whom the
>PJ divide is equally important, equally a matter of "how it is" and "how it
>must be" -- but for me, P and J are the names of an inbreath and outbreath,
>a listening and a responding, a conjugation of conjugals in communion.  To
>me, the "free and passionate expression of skills" isn't one or the other,
>"free and passionate" is the F and P of which "expression of skills" is the
>T and J in an FTPJ marriage that is indissoluble for practical purposes,
>though it can be analysed into its components in purely theoretical terms.

Hm.  Do you perceive me as ES?  I'm IN also, usually test at 100% I and
near 100% N.

>I'm not claiming to be right about this, JoAnne, in the sense of mandating
>that everyone should be INFPs or they're somehow insensitive,

Good to hear that!

>or ESTJs or
>they're somehow not tracking "reality".  I'm saying that the marriage of
>opposites, *coniunctio oppositorum*, does happen, that it is in fact
>integral to some human occupations that are worth pursuing, and that from
>the perspective of the coniunctio, *none* of the paired questions in a
>Myers-Briggs style test still make any sense.

I think I expressed myself poorly.  I really don't believe one must be more
P than J or vice versa.  My major point was that you didn't address the J
side at all, hence no balance.

Would you accept that the J half of the world can include parts of people
and not wholes?  Perhaps my statement makes more sense if you look at it
that way.

>In my case, I and E are slowly coming together -- I the self-assured lover
>beginning to romance E, and E the bashful friend beginning to hold hands
>with I.

Perhaps you have that mixed?

>And N is like the North Pole, on top of the world -- yet knowing
>secretly that every way (and thus too the only possible way) that leads
>from here, leads South...

No problem with that.  Or rather, problem, but I at least know what I
should be trying to do more of.

>Having said all of which, JoAnne, I can only conclude by offering you this
>slight -- and admittedly "introverted intuitive" -- joke about the matter.

Very interesting and amusing.  But the judgement will happen only at the
end of time.  Sounds like a lollygagging P to me!

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Jul 1998 18:37:20 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
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Hello Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>, on Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:21:55 -0400
you wrote:

>Charles, JoAnne
>
>This morning rooting around in my book cache trying to locate my favorite
>book to get a quote right for a conversation, I read your posts and thot it
>an interesting connection. It's from my computer days Tracy Kidder's
>pulitzer prize winning book The Soul of a New Machine.
>The microcoder coming back from months hiking in the Vermont hills (his
>process) says of how he does what he does.
>
>"You have to understand the problem thoroughly and you have to have thought
>of all the myriad ways in which you can put your microverbs together. You
>have a hundred L-shaped blocks to build a building. You take all the
>pieces, put them together, pull them apart, put them together. After a
>while, you're like a kid on a jungle gym. There are all these constructs in
>your mind and you can swing from one to the other with ease."
>
>I think of the 8 aspects to the MBs as being in my potential self, and are
>in a fluid state which can be activated...At the moment I may be an INFP,
>yet I can experienceuse all of these to some to degree or another...it's
>just my resistance to framing a person so concretely...but then I am an
>explorer (based in another instrument);-)
>
>So for me at the moment I am focused on S and exploring what that means to
>me...well, I've cleaned up my apartment :-) but that could be about those
>aspects in Virgo...
>
>JoAnne, how do you see the aspects playing out?

I'll have to apologize in advance for not having caught previous mentions
of Virgo aspects.  Virgo is the preparation for one-on-one interaction,
getting ready for prime time and the public acknowledgement of the other.
Fact-checking.  Readiness.  It would probably vibe best with the T function
(ruled by Mercury) and the S function (earth).

>Charles, when I took the MB, the psychologist said to us that we tend to
>begin in one place and move to another during a life time...however, I
>resonate to your <unorthodox> view... I hold what you are saying in terms
>of moving from duality to paradox...meaning I am an INFP period into I am
>an IEFSPJ...this also plays out in yinyang...and integration seems to me to
>be the outcome which then frees one to respond with one's entire potential
>self...

I would never have imagined myself as concerned with the counter-type
functions as I am now.  After all, MBTI is only about preferences, not
about abilities or potentials!  It only tells us what we prefer to do, what
feels natural or easy.

I run an INTJ list and it's funny how many people believe it's something
like a life sentence or predestination.  And recently some discussion
opened up on another list I'm on about Asperger's Syndrome, in which the
person affected is unable to empathize at all with others' emotions.  Yet
they do learn to take them into account (imperfectly, but who among us is
perfect?) by using facial and contextual cues.

If someone with an innate ability to empathize can learn to interact
socially without anyone's knowing, then certainly we can learn to overcome
simple preferences.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Jul 1998 18:37:22 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
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Hello Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>, on Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:35:13 -0400 you
wrote:

>Ojojojo, That reminds me of Jo in little women  (about which I have written)
>  I hope you had a good day working on your day off.  And that the visist from
>your mother brought some satisfaction, despite it admitted difficulties in the Mother/
>daughter relationship.

It was fun and difficult.  As a result of never planning ahead and never
paying attention to vacuuming and the like, I spent two days cleaning
house.  Phil and I also put together a pantry so we wouldn't have two boxes
full of pantry parts sitting in the dining room while we ate.

Then when I had finally gotten ready to go pick Mom up, I went to call her
and the line was busy, so both Phil and I trooped over there.  I think he
knew I was afraid it wasn't the phone but Mom that was out of order.
Luckily it was the phone this time.

So we got home and Mom oohed and aahed over the new pantry, and how nice it
was in the house, how she felt at home having been there a few times
before, how the place suits us.  Those were nice to hear.  And she hadn't
seen my piano yet, and asked for me to play something.  Oh no.

I looked for something really easy, but I was still nervous, and screwed it
up in places.  But she applauded when I was done.

Dinner was good.  Then up to the deck to watch the fireworks.

They were good, but I didn't enjoy them nearly enough.  Some idiot on our
block likes to set off large fireworks and in a rowhouse neighborhood this
means fire hazard.  We've heard and seen this going on several times before
and I was kind of dreading what last night would be like.

It started out okay, but soon the fireworks are not just in front of us far
away but behind us and very close.  I thought one was going to land on us.
Sparks were falling on some houses a couple of doors down.  I was a nervous
wreck.

And if you want futility, try to call 911 about fireworks on the 4th of
July.

Anyway, then we kind of waited for the traffic to subside before leaving.
Again little to talk about (and this is funny, because we can usually think
of something) so Mom read a magazine about Sinatra.

>Do they ever end?  I know mine never did.  Though I
>continure to hope that mine own with mine own daughter (at least one of them)
>will.  My own mother died 'Over the rainbow' in 'Never Never Land'...many say
>that despite her hardly held (or because of it?) Fundamentalist Religion, that
>she committed Selficide.  I don't know. Only that I have a large unresolveable
>empty spot in my psyche, because of our failure to reach any amiacable closure.
>  Since you value 'closure' ever more than I, may it be different for you.
>  Do I understand you correctly?  Do you say that you test ISTJ?

INTJ.  Strongly each.

>  If so, god knows we need the balance here.  I particularly welcome it because,
>oddly....my last and most dear Jungian Analyst was (is?) ISFJ.

Someone once told me an analyst should be SF.  It would certainly be
important to be able to observe and listen.  If all you want to do is
theorize and then apply theories to the subject then you're probably going
to be ineffective in most cases.

But as I said in another post, these are preferences and not life
sentences.  An N-preferrer can learn to be a good S observer.

>  Best to you and yours,

Thanks, Nancy, best to you and your mother-daughter exchanges

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Jul 1998 17:03:19 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
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JoAnne:

> Hm.  Do you perceive me as ES?

Certainly not.  If anything, I see IN everywhere, and have to be told if
there's an E or an S in the vicinity.  But that's in my circle of friends
and net friends.  In football crowds there are probably all kinds of
people, including a bunch of Es and Ss: but I only ever see them on TV, and
I've got the remote <grin>.

More seriously, I wasn't writing *to* you so much as taking off from
something you said, which sparked a whole line of thought... that wasn't a
response so much as an extended tangent.

The other day I was writing pretty much a first draft for an essay on how I
view the interactions in the MB system, and a quote from your post was what
allowed this long emergent opus its first opportunity to write itself.  So
I mentioned "E & S" as the opposites of my particular "IN" style, not as
something I saw in you.

This post, by contrast, is a direct response to yours today.

*

> I think I expressed myself poorly.  I really don't believe one must
> be more P than J or vice versa.  My major point was that you
> didn't address the J side at all, hence no balance.

I was trying to give one example each of various styles of balance,
imbalance, question, choice, etc -- and could indeed write the whole thing
with a few appropriate word substitutions, and say exactly the same kinds
of things about any combinations of Es and Is and Ns and Ss and Ts and Fs
and Ps and Js: but it would end up reading like one of those sermons of the
Buddha where every possible combinatoric is explored to help the poor
listener catch the drift:

::  You approach the World Enlightened One, O Ananda, asking
::  respectfully with palms folded and left shoulder bared, whether
::  I, O Ananda, before whom you stand respectfully with palms
::  folded and left shoulder bared, am of the opinion, O Ananda,
::  that the world has a beginning or an end, or that the world has
::  neither a beginning nor an end, or that the world both has a
::  beginning and an end and has neither a beginning nor an end, or
::  that the world neither has a beginning and an end nor does not
::  have a beginning nor an end, but rather, O Ananda, whether it is
::  the opinion of the World Enlightened One, before whom you
::  stand respectfully with palms folded and left shoulder bared,
::  that the world is rather none other than the shining suchness of
::  the World Enlightened One...

::  And when you approach the World Enlightened One, O Ananda,
::  asking respectfully with palms folded...

And so forth.  In fact I don't see where I failed to address the "J side"
in any way.  I said:

> for me, P and J are the names of an inbreath and outbreath

and:

> "free and passionate" is the F and P of which "expression of
> skills" is the T and J in an FTPJ marriage that is indissoluble for
> practical purposes...

I keep saying that P and J are equal partners as far as I'm concerned, as
are F and T -- and from that experiential truth I deduce also a truth that
I haven't experienced, viz that E and I must also be equal partners, and N
and S likewise.  But those two are marriages I have yet to experience
personally <lopsided grin>.

There are people for whom each possible pairing is a marriage, and people
for whom each possible pairing is an unequal partnership: but the
inequality stems from their own personal typology, not from E or I, or N or
S, or T or F, or P or J being in any way inherently inferior to or superior
to its opposite.  That's what I'm getting at.

And I think that the spread of people having "racecar driver" and "highwire
artist" responses to each of the four pairs of opposites in turn shows
pretty clearly that the MB system works.

*

> Would you accept that the J half of the world can include parts
> of people and not wholes?  Perhaps my statement makes more
> sense if you look at it that way.

Here you may have lost me completely.

I think that animus / anima possession and probably some other forms of
psychic "shift" cause one to switch functions in at least some of the
pairs, so that an anima possessed man or animus possessed woman INTJ, say,
would very likely function out of their less developed latent E, S, F or P
capacities, or maybe even all four of them.  But I don't know, I just think
Jung hinted at something of the kind, and it kinda makes sense to me.  all
part of the enantiodromia / reversal.

If saying an INTJ has latent latent E, S, F and P capacities, and vice
versa, and the same with all the other possible combinations, means I give
a "yes" answer to your question, then I'm giving a "yes".  If not, I'm not
at all sure what you're asking me.

*

I'd written:

> In my case, I and E are slowly coming together -- I the self-
> assured lover beginning to romance E, and E the bashful friend
> beginning to hold hands with I.

And you ask:

> Perhaps you have that mixed?

Nope, wrote just what I intended to.  In my case, the Introvert is very
self assured, and really is romancing the far less self-assured potential
Extrovert in me... and the Extrovert in me is the one that's timidly
offering the hand of friendship.  My "Introvert" nature has the assurance
that we commonly associate with "extroverted people" in other words.
Ironic, but quite delightful in its own weird way.  You too, perhaps?

*

About that joke:

> But the judgement will happen only at the end of time.  Sounds
> like a lollygagging P to me!

You're right of course.  Guess you can't trust the Roman Army to get the
details right.

Best wishes,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Jul 1998 19:23:45 -0600
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Judith,

> IMO everything in its own perfect timing...

:: To every thing, turn, turn, turn
:: There is a season, turn , turn, turn
:: And a time for ev'ry purpose under heaven (Byrds)

> It's like mountain climbing isn't it?...I've been pulled up by those ahead
> who reached down to give me their hand...I see hands being offered here
> continuously...you offering yours and receiving from others...for me it is
> about the sacredness of life and yes, compassion for all of us

And like mountain climbing, there are slips in the shale that send one
into a quick descent ... balance ... yet a balance that like the tree
strives to touch the sky and the sun

Robert (drying out under cloudy skies following a night of night storms)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Jul 1998 09:34:47 -0400
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Yes, Robert,

>Judith,
>
>> IMO everything in its own perfect timing...
>
>:: To every thing, turn, turn, turn
>:: There is a season, turn , turn, turn
>:: And a time for ev'ry purpose under heaven (Byrds)
>
and sometimes my idea of perfect timing and the universe's seem to *be* in
different universes...I've noticed in my life that *my* plans are what the
universe gives to keep me busy while it is implementing its plan:-)

>> It's like mountain climbing isn't it?...I've been pulled up by those ahead
>> who reached down to give me their hand...I see hands being offered here
>> continuously...you offering yours and receiving from others...for me it is
>> about the sacredness of life and yes, compassion for all of us
>
>And like mountain climbing, there are slips in the shale that send one
>into a quick descent ... balance ... yet a balance that like the tree
>strives to touch the sky and the sun
And flying is a good skill to have take one to the top branches to be
bathed by sky and sun

And hopefully sun for your golf game soon;-)
Judith anticipating the flight

>
>Robert (drying out under cloudy skies following a night of night storms)
>
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Date:         Mon, 6 Jul 1998 11:57:44 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro

JoAnne, It sounds as if a good 4th was had by all, in the spirit of freedom and
   communion.

   Judith, I guess you need to lay in a store of honey cakes so we can get past
   Cerberon (both ways, so at least 2)  Llamp got a tummy ache from too many
   Reese's Pieces and has been curled up under her bushel basket.

   Hoon, I don't think anyone did notice.  Perhaps being out-of-line is the norm
    here (?)

    Best to all,

    Nancy
    (Learning less from her improved spelling)

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Date:         Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:10:26 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
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On Sun, 5 Jul 1998 17:03:19 -0700, you, Charles Cameron
<hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>, wrote:

>And so forth.  In fact I don't see where I failed to address the "J side"
>in any way.  I said:
>
>> for me, P and J are the names of an inbreath and outbreath
>
>and:
>
>> "free and passionate" is the F and P of which "expression of
>> skills" is the T and J in an FTPJ marriage that is indissoluble for
>> practical purposes...

But those were in your second post, which was a reply to my first.  I'm
telling you why I wrote my first post, in response to that one
paragraph, I think, which seemed to ignore J.

Let me break it down logically as I saw it.

Charles says something about type which does not address J type.

Two possibilities (probably more but most simply):

1.  It was just an example.  In that case I provided another example.

2.  It was supposed to cover all the bases.  In that case I point out
that there are other bases.

So it was an answer set up to deal with two different questions.  It
actually seems that you meant 1 but I read it as 2.

Hope that's not too confusing.  Hope you're not taking my comments as
angry or upset or disturbed with you, they're not at all; I just like
clarifying things and will keep at it until I think things are fairly
well understood.

Some (many) people have a really weird idea of what's going on with me
when I do that.  They have a mental picture of me red-faced, yelling, or
something.

It's more like when I'm writing a computer program and it's not working
quite right yet and I change yet another thing on it and try it again.
If I got angry every time the first try didn't work, I would have
exploded by now!  It's just a matter of thought and then patient trial
and error and thought and trial again continually intermixed until a
reasonable approximation is reached.

Chiaroscuro is an interesting title for this part of the thread.  Dark
and light.  Contrast between things, and a mix of them.

>I keep saying that P and J are equal partners as far as I'm concerned, as
>are F and T -- and from that experiential truth I deduce also a truth that
>I haven't experienced, viz that E and I must also be equal partners, and N
>and S likewise.  But those two are marriages I have yet to experience
>personally <lopsided grin>.
>
>There are people for whom each possible pairing is a marriage, and people
>for whom each possible pairing is an unequal partnership: but the
>inequality stems from their own personal typology, not from E or I, or N or
>S, or T or F, or P or J being in any way inherently inferior to or superior
>to its opposite.  That's what I'm getting at.

Oh, no argument there.

>And I think that the spread of people having "racecar driver" and "highwire
>artist" responses to each of the four pairs of opposites in turn shows
>pretty clearly that the MB system works.

Racecar driver would be to zoom towards one and away from the other?

>> Would you accept that the J half of the world can include parts
>> of people and not wholes?  Perhaps my statement makes more
>> sense if you look at it that way.
>
>Here you may have lost me completely.

>I think that animus / anima possession and probably some other forms of
>psychic "shift" cause one to switch functions in at least some of the
>pairs, so that an anima possessed man or animus possessed woman INTJ, say,
>would very likely function out of their less developed latent E, S, F or P
>capacities, or maybe even all four of them.  But I don't know, I just think
>Jung hinted at something of the kind, and it kinda makes sense to me.  all
>part of the enantiodromia / reversal.
>
>If saying an INTJ has latent latent E, S, F and P capacities, and vice
>versa, and the same with all the other possible combinations, means I give
>a "yes" answer to your question, then I'm giving a "yes".  If not, I'm not
>at all sure what you're asking me.

That was it.  I didn't mean that separate psychic shift is required.
Though come to think of it, it might feel that way from time to time
when the focus is shifted to a little-used function.

>I'd written:
>
>> In my case, I and E are slowly coming together -- I the self-
>> assured lover beginning to romance E, and E the bashful friend
>> beginning to hold hands with I.
>
>And you ask:
>
>> Perhaps you have that mixed?
>
>Nope, wrote just what I intended to.  In my case, the Introvert is very
>self assured, and really is romancing the far less self-assured potential
>Extrovert in me... and the Extrovert in me is the one that's timidly
>offering the hand of friendship.  My "Introvert" nature has the assurance
>that we commonly associate with "extroverted people" in other words.
>Ironic, but quite delightful in its own weird way.  You too, perhaps?

I understand now.  Paradoxical, and interesting.  Seems to fit me
reasonably well.  I think much of my online persona is the introvert,
because I'm by myself when typing, and can control the interaction.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Jul 1998 00:32:29 +0100
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From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
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Still nobody owning up??

-Such cowardice is to be pitied.


Dolores.

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Date:         Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:51:25 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: FBI
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Dolores

> Still nobody owning up??
>
> -Such cowardice is to be pitied.

So what happened exactly ?  Have they suddenly arrested you?  Are you a
spy?


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:10:27 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: about that essay of mine
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Charles,

Nice to get the context and especially to hear about the "game of the
essay"  (as in movie of the book) ... I found the essay fine, even without
the discussion.  I have often seen forests as masses of plans seeking light
and those that cant reach getting sustenance from those that can.

> That game idea may feed my family for the next year or two, who knows.

Good luck!

> So it was a pretty weird and wild experience for me.  I'm not used to
> waking at 4:30am, I'm not used to needing to write weird, difficult to read
> essays -- though I enjoy it -- and above all I'm not used to seeing the old
> unconscious come up with a detailed idea for a computer game in eight hours
> straight form first clue to finished presentation!

It is this quality of the essay that made me think of it like an oracle ...
and that it is difficult gives it the quality of the oracle being in Latin.
I think the style that makes it difficult also gives it the quality that
inspires the meditation on the themes ...  I am reminded of how some people
liked the old Latin mass ... I think I would too, though I have not
experienced mass in Latin or any other language, strange for someone
planning a marriage with an Anglican celebrant.

Given all of this, Nancy's connection to the Sun was quite a stroke of
brilliance, or attunement to other forces?  In the "She" book the oracle is
Aphrodite ... I wonder what that means?  Different versions ... revealing
different aspects ...

It is as if there is an underlying "tropism" or several at work in the
discussions here, which is of course one way that your essay is a
commentary on Psyber-L  ... well, that is how I read it.

As an aside I remember being fascinated by the word negative-geo-tropism,
which is simply to say: grows away from the earth, that would be another
tropism happening in a forest, as well as geo-tropism of course.  What
interested me was how easily re-naming serve as explanations for what a
plant does ... while not really being an explanation, yet adding a lot.

~~~

You say more about the game you are developing:

> And because humans also make choices, and because very different sequences
> of human choices can lead to the vast profusion of different human genii
> that we call Albert Einstein and Wolfgang Mozart and Helen Keller and
> Rembrandt van Rijn and Napoleon Bonaparte and Marie Curie, each leaf that a
> player "winds up at" at the end of the game, at the twig tip, will also be
> a "great person" for them to learn about.

Wonderful!

> And because the architecture of computer games follows the same "branching"
> pattern in its logic that trees follow in their growing and the human
> family in its exploration of diversity, what I'm calling the "Oak" (with
> branches and leaves) and the "Philosophic Tree" (with branches and great
> human beings) will "fit' the very way that games are created. very nicely.

That is beautiful.  I never know my own place in the tree of knowledge.  I
have some Marxism, and some Moreno, and some of the specific branch where I
see Hillman, giving ultimate value to soul (psyche).  This leaves me
hopping from branch to branch.  Does one have to be a "great person" to
have one's own branch or is it more that a great person discovers a new
branch on the tree?  I love the question, and know that there is no answer.

> How's that, eh?  How am I doing?

Just great!  I love the play of ideas and the virtual music that just hums
through from the games to the discussions here.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:13:49 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
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Dear Nancy, All,

In   Re: Psyche: a PLAY...Zen slap... (dang it!) Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:05:35
-0400

you wrote:

>   Walter I didn't agree with something you said to Robert about a year ago.
> I feel that in some respects we are a family here.  I feel that because I believe
> that as we each continue to grow, we modify our original family complexes using
> whatever me...right....we each can from our environment, particularly our
> 'community' whatever that may mean in this wonderful age.

Interesting!

What we *are* in this splace is an abstraction of some sort, we make *what
we are* with our words, words are abstractions, yet with our words we go
beyond our words, and we live in Psyber-L ... I do ... I live here a lot of
the time ... not just while I am at the computer ... that is the least of
it really.

Hence in some respects we are like a family ... if we map our psychological
links to others it might include people in Psyber-L  ... or, perhaps in the
way you are thinking this place replicates family, hence through *doing
family* here we can modify our complexes.  I sure think we do that here, I
do, and often re-experience being the "eldest son watching a gender war
between my parents" and I grapple to modify that complex, and have been
grateful for the opportunity to project all that here <grin>.  The price I
pay of course is that I have the complexes of others  projected onto me.
And so YES, it is a family ... or it is  *like*a family or it is both a
family and like a family ...

Bear with me, Nancy, through my abstract-concrete thoughts (I tried to
combine the words but could not get past contract <grin>) ... if they delve
too far into what is for you an abstract realm .... perhaps Judith could
translate across the levels?

Ordinary families are abstractions as well.  I hear it so often  "We were
not really a family, etc.  We have a notion of family that can include
almost anything and can be ok or not ok ... if the local police department
behaved like a family it would be a little scary.

I'd like to introduce a concept I have nurtured for a while ... The
Virtualisation of the Real.  With the advent of cyberspace and the speeding
up of the interplay of abstraction we have created a new ontological
category "virtual reality"  ... hence we are a virtual family, and then,
very quickly we can see that all families are really virtual, the
virtualization of the real!

We are a family, a community, a club, a cult, a forum, a circle, email
addresses (where are you FRITZ?), a therapy group, an experiment, a
project, Psyber-L, a mailing list, a bunch of people on an expedition,
actors on a stage, an audience, people living their life all around the
world, Oz, Hades, paradise, in the realm of the soul, on the Argus ...

One person's concretisation is another's abstraction.

 ~~~

Some months ago I spoke of the Seven Levels of Psyberspace ... it was half
serious and half spoof, jokingly making Psybernet sound like a cult with a
metaphysical doctrine ... but there is some truth in the notion of levels
I think, HooN has often lit a candle illuminating the doorway from one to
another.  If one person is speaking about emails, posts, servers,
subscription and so on and another is speaking about and *feeling* love,
hate, and has images of people living life then there are about three
levels in between and the gap can *feel* like a *deliberate* attack and a
refusal to listen and be frustrating and painful!

~~~

Judge not another's level of abstraction ... the imaginal world is large
enough for us all.

I withdraw and apologise for all the times I have done that.

~~~

My specific learning on all of this is:
Being in the role of "list owner" it has been easy for me to remain on that
level of psyberspace ... where this is a list, and the boundaries are in
the files and in the software and so on.  Vital stuff!  I am not joking and
as a list owner i *need* to think and learn about that level of psyberspace
... in fact my need has been great and still is ... on that level as well
as the levels either side of that  :-)  (I can see them!)


It would be good for me to move to another level ...

~~~

One thing that made me chuckle was that I have likened some of your posts,
Nancy,  to Jackson Pollack paintings, he of course was an abstractionist,
almost archetypically.  For people who do not operate with art at that
level of abstraction his work was an outrage, if I recall, they could not
access that work at all!  Accessing each other's abstractions of choice is
quite an art!

~~~

I guess when we go from one level to another that is a branching ...

~~~


How am I doing?  (As Charles put it.)


Walter












__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:31:45 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Pre-occupation.

Walter, any and all,

    This is intended to be brief (but will it be?)

    As you may guess, I am still unable to see the far left of the screen.  Now I
 could get out the manual and grapple with the concrete/abstract therein.
  could but it is not what I feel called upon to do, at least yet.

    I was being a bit kind to say 'abstractions'.  What I actually believe is that
  there a degree of autism involve in these expressions.  As so a degree of
 ' 'please come to me, for it is not within my acceptable definition of myself that
  I always come all the way to you'.  My suspicion is that this is part of what
Nathan Schwartz-Salant is talking about with 'fear of the feminine' which for
  him is linked with 'Mother Complex' and fear of engulfment.  He thinks that it
  is a major factor in every man, particularly in their relationship to women.


    I am quite prepared to entertain this theory, while admitting that I don't fully
  understand it.  I'm sure that women also experience some fear of engulfment.
  How could they not, when so many even yet adopt life styles which only
  implement the values of the men in their lives.  This is a part of Selficide.  And
  it does induce fear, the degree depending, of course, on the degree of
 personal reward they are able to experience that that life style (What does Kate
  do?  Presumptuous again, of me, no doubt.)

   I should add that I do not use the word 'autistic' in a perjorative way.  You
men, in addition to anything else you might be doing, are trying to work out ideas
  which are - I gather - somewhat new to you, and are trying them out on one
another.  I believe that a degree of autism is inevitable.  If this were not so
 what work would Jung's follows have to do in amplifying and clarifying his work?

   I expect there were issues in you post(s) of which  I am not, right now,
 mindful.  Perhaps I can return for them another time.

   How are you doing?

   You spell entirely too well.

   Nancy
   Paying her share of the rent.
 in

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:59:50 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:13:49 GMT, Walter Logeman  wrote:

>Dear Nancy, All,
>
>In   Re: Psyche: a PLAY...Zen slap... (dang it!) Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:05:35
>-0400
>
>you wrote:
>
>>   Walter I didn't agree with something you said to Robert about a year ago.
>> I feel that in some respects we are a family here.  I feel that because I believe
>> that as we each continue to grow, we modify our original family complexes using
>> whatever me...right....we each can from our environment, particularly our
>> 'community' whatever that may mean in this wonderful age.
>
>Interesting!
>
>What we *are* in this splace is an abstraction of some sort, we make *what
>we are* with our words, words are abstractions, yet with our words we go
>beyond our words, and we live in Psyber-L ... I do ... I live here a lot of
>the time ... not just while I am at the computer ... that is the least of
>it really.
>
>Hence in some respects we are like a family ... if we map our psychological
>links to others it might include people in Psyber-L  ... or, perhaps in the
>way you are thinking this place replicates family, hence through *doing
>family* here we can modify our complexes.  I sure think we do that here, I
>do, and often re-experience being the "eldest son watching a gender war
>between my parents" and I grapple to modify that complex, and have been
>grateful for the opportunity to project all that here <grin>.  The price I
>pay of course is that I have the complexes of others  projected onto me.
>And so YES, it is a family ... or it is  *like*a family or it is both a
>family and like a family ...
                   Like THE family....
>
>Bear with me, Nancy, through my abstract-concrete thoughts (I tried to
>combine the words but could not get past contract <grin>) ... if they delve
>too far into what is for you an abstract realm .... perhaps Judith could
>translate across the levels?

>
>Ordinary families are abstractions as well.  I hear it so often  "We were
     >not really a family, etc.  We have a notion of family that can include
     >almost anything and can be ok or not ok ... if the local police department
     >behaved like a family it would be a little scary.
>    Hmmm...havta think about that last....Would it?  Certainly not as scary as
     when a husband starts behaving like the local police department without the
     civil constraints.

>I'd like to introduce a concept I have nurtured for a while ... The
    >Virtualisation of the Real.  With the advent of cyberspace and the speeding
    >up of the interplay of abstraction we have created a new ontological
>category "virtual reality"  ... hence we are a virtual family, and then,
>very quickly we can see that all families are really virtual, the
>virtualization of the real!

      Hmmm...metaphysics and I have a bargain (some to be broken?)  I
      won't both it, if it doesn't bother me.
>
>We are a family, a community, a club, a cult, a forum, a circle, email
>addresses (where are you FRITZ?), a therapy group, an experiment, a
>project, Psyber-L, a mailing list, a bunch of people on an expedition,
>actors on a stage, an audience, people living their life all around the
>world, Oz, Hades, paradise, in the realm of the soul, on the Argus ...

      FRITZ.  A condition in which something doesn't work properly.....(Mfff???)
>
>One person's concretisation is another's abstraction.

      Really?
>
> ~~~
>
>Some months ago I spoke of the Seven Levels of Psyberspace ... it was half
>serious and half spoof, jokingly making Psybernet sound like a cult with a
>metaphysical doctrine ... but there is some truth in the notion of levels
>I think, HooN has often lit a candle illuminating the doorway from one to
>another.  If one person is speaking about emails, posts, servers,
>subscription and so on and another is speaking about and *feeling* love,
      >hate, and has images of people living life then there are about three
      >levels in between and the gap can *feel* like a *deliberate* attack and a
      >refusal to listen and be frustrating and painful!

      I find the above fairly unclear.  Probably because I am having to take your
      comments of 'some months ago' out of there original context.
>
>~~~
>
     >Judge not another's level of abstraction ... the imaginal world is large
      >enough for us all.

       Was I 'judging' someone's 'level' of abstraction?  Or merely giving it the
       name abstraction.  If the former, you might admonish me with more
       success in 3 months when I get off of Frand Jury duty, instead of now
       when I am just practicing up my ESTJs to go one.  Though I doubt it.
        Generally 'admonishments only hurt Llamp's feelings and make me mad
        as we believe that they are 'Parent'.  And not very nice Parent, at that.
>
      >I withdraw and apologise for all the times I have done that.

       I suppose you mean that you feel that on those occasions you now feel
       that you committed some offence and you now wish to withdraw the
       offensiveness?
>
>~~~
>
      >My specific learning on all of this is:
      >Being in the role of "list owner" it has been easy for me to remain on that
      >level of psyberspace ... where this is a list, and the boundaries are in
      >the files and in the software and so on.  Vital stuff!  I am not joking and
      >as a list owner i *need* to think and learn about that level of psyberspace
      >... in fact my need has been great and still is ... on that level as well
      >as the levels either side of that  :-)  (I can see them!)

        Hmmm...I wonder if my 'T' is getting tired because yours is?
>
>
>It would be good for me to move to another level ...
>
>~~~
>
>One thing that made me chuckle was that I have likened some of your posts,
>Nancy,  to Jackson Pollack paintings, he of course was an abstractionist,
>almost archetypically.  For people who do not operate with art at that
>level of abstraction his work was an outrage, if I recall, they could not
>access that work at all!  Accessing each other's abstractions of choice is
>quite an art!

      I should say that it is a 'choice' rather than and 'art'...or perhaps I wish to
      emphasis that it is a choice whether to exercize ones 'art' in this direction.
         It seems to me that you, Walter, are tending to imply here (and not for the
         first time) here that I, Nancy, am somehow deficient in the ability to
         abstract.  I doubt this.  In fact for some time some years ago, I worked
         for a psychiatrist, for whom Engish was a second language, writing
         abstract of professional journal articles.  Worked, I might add, to the mutual
         satisfaction of both....until the day she threw one too many temper
         tantrums.  If you have never seen a 75 year, tiny lady psychiatrist in her
         pajamas jump up and down on her front lawn in rage, then you, Walter,
         have missed a very memorable sight.
>
>~~~
>
>I guess when we go from one level to another that is a branching ...

          As far as I know, I owe Charles no rent, either morally or metaphorically
        so at this time I am still disinclined to go there.
          There may be some projection involved in my inclining.  I think he
         reminds me of my big brother who was not all together please with the
         advent of Llamp into the kingdom where he had for ten years been the
          one and only sun.
>
>~~~
>
>
>How am I doing?  (As Charles put it.)
>
>
>Walter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:35:49 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: chiaroscuro
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>JoAnne, It sounds as if a good 4th was had by all, in the spirit of freedom and
>   communion.
>
>   Judith, I guess you need to lay in a store of honey cakes so we can get past
>   Cerberon (both ways, so at least 2)  Llamp got a tummy ache from too many
>   Reese's Pieces and has been curled up under her bushel basket.

Little Lamp if you see Cerberon please light himherit up cause I haven't a
clue...meanwhile I'm not going to carry these damn dictionaries all by
myself ...of course we could take some lamp oil to them, little lamp, if
you want to...or get me a MULE...
Meanwhile I've added a book on Jackson Pollack to the prop list...

Anything else?

Judith the prop-erty

>
>   Hoon, I don't think anyone did notice.  Perhaps being out-of-line is
>the norm
>    here (?)
>
>    Best to all,
>
>    Nancy
>    (Learning less from her improved spelling)
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:36:57 -0400
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Subject:      Re: Pre-occupation.
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Nancy, Walter,

Interesting to me to find your posts this morning after a 5 hour marathon
of words with the sculpture who has appeared in this timespace...most of
the millions of words were his about his art...concepts and ideas and
abstractions....I understood what he was saying from my experience of his
show which blew me away or better took me to a place I had never been
before...very tantric...he completely depletes himself with the creating,
the birthing...and though I can resonate to his experience I cannot know
it...what seems apparent to me is how he and I are seekingexperiencing *it*
in very different ways...and it is apparent that he taps into a place I
have no knowing of...what I do have knowing of is his total commitment and
capacity to go into it in totality and each time feeling like he is going
to die (be engulfed)...he speaks about doing his art as going to kill
him...but he does it anyway...but then he's a huge warrior and engages
mindboggling energies and shapes them...what I know is from his
abstractions (his art pieces) I can tell you about the man and his journey
and who he is...but then I could stand in the show and feel all the
energies from the pieces...interesting the female reviewer didn't have a
clue what it was about, but that was more about her not having the life
experience to grok nor the ability to open to the intensity and probably
never had a goodany organsm

>Walter, any and all,
>
>    This is intended to be brief (but will it be?)
>
>    As you may guess, I am still unable to see the far left of the screen.
>Now I
> could get out the manual and grapple with the concrete/abstract therein.
>  could but it is not what I feel called upon to do, at least yet.
>
>    I was being a bit kind to say 'abstractions'.  What I actually believe
>is that
>  there a degree of autism involve in these expressions.

Nancy, could you say what you mean by *autism* in this context...are you
saying they can't relate or can't feel or live in their own world? I'm not
sure how you are using the word...tks

  As so a degree of
> ' 'please come to me, for it is not within my acceptable definition of
>myself that
>  I always come all the way to you'.  My suspicion is that this is part of what
>Nathan Schwartz-Salant is talking about with 'fear of the feminine' which for
>  him is linked with 'Mother Complex' and fear of engulfment.  He thinks
>that it
>  is a major factor in every man, particularly in their relationship to women.
well, I certainly think there is an archetypal experience going on...
Hoon keeps pointing this out to me when I say in a lamenting wale *are
there *any* men freed of their mother!!!!!??*

And Nancy I think the other side of this is the woman's need to stay in
connection, to be in relationship not just to men but to everything...I
recall an illuminating conversation with a man I was in love with in the
midst of a fear moment for both of us...he said that the anxiety I was
feeling, feeling cut off from him was the same anxiety that he felt being
engulfed by me...he also said that this fear of engulfment is overcome by
the urge to mate, but after that the man will go back to the safety of
separation which is when the woman reacts from the feeling of
disconnection...I *Know* this is my own life with both my marriages in
which the seeds of failure for me were sown in the first week back from the
honeymoon when both men retreated and I took it as rejection after being
hotly pursued by each for months...now I am aware of this, things are less
perplexing...and I saw this in my son's ex wife who would follow him
everywhere, her fear of separation was so intense.

And now with my newfound knowledge it seems I'm looking for the proverbial
needle in a haystack...I often wonder how my son's mother thing plays out,
but he's left handed and...well, we went there before;-)
>
>
>    I am quite prepared to entertain this theory, while admitting that I
>don't fully
>  understand it.  I'm sure that women also experience some fear of engulfment.
>  How could they not, when so many even yet adopt life styles which only
>  implement the values of the men in their lives.  This is a part of Selficide.

Well, I have experienced this in my life but I didn't see it as selficide,
but a learning about the masculine within me, admittedly I didn't call it
the masculine, I wondered why I couldn't relate to the girls and I was more
comfortable with the guys...I very much operated from my masculine side for
many years and distained my feminine a lot because the women around me
seemed like aliens and did very hurtful things to me for reasons which I
had no clue...when I got to my mentor's work on the feminine and the
mapping of the relational aspect, it was like a light went on and I could
see who women, meaning the feminine, were for the first time in my
life...the research about how little girls punish by not speaking to
someone...this comes out of the relational mapping and when one of the
girls in a group does something to break the connectionrelationship, the
punishment is to cut them off...I experienced this over and over as a young
girl and it perplexed me...years later gaining the data I gained an
understanding...

In my mentor's work she identified a very definite division between those
women who map one to many and those that map one to one...those mapping one
to many come from a self in relationship to many, thus they prioritize
through self interest, those mapping one to one are maped *by* the
relationship and prioritize using time as one means, ie: everyother Sunday
we go to my parents and the others your parents...the conflicts come when
the prioritization hits a snag like when a working mother has to go out of
town and her child is sick...
Anyway writing this makes it too simple because there is lots of
underpinnings implied here...

  And
>  it does induce fear, the degree depending, of course, on the degree of
> personal reward they are able to experience that that life style (What
>does Kate
>  do?  Presumptuous again, of me, no doubt.)
>
>   I should add that I do not use the word 'autistic' in a perjorative
>way.  You
>men, in addition to anything else you might be doing, are trying to work
>out ideas
>  which are - I gather - somewhat new to you, and are trying them out on one
>another.

Nancy, I may be misunderstanding but when I read this there seems to be an
assumption that we females know and the guys don't...that we females
understand ourselves, but the men don't understand themselves...I think it
has more to do with exploring a different (latent) aspect of ourselves...

  I believe that a degree of autism is inevitable.  If this were not so
> what work would Jung's follows have to do in amplifying and clarifying
>his work?

But isn't it a framing which is being explored? Maybe this is my prejudice
against psychology seeing things from a "brokenshadow" standpoint...I much
prefer Jean Houston and Robert Master's work on evoking potential selves...
Though it would have been nice had the Sculptor worked out his mother thang:-)
>
>   I expect there were issues in you post(s) of which  I am not, right now,
> mindful.  Perhaps I can return for them another time.
>
>   How are you doing?
>
>   You spell entirely too well.

Well, I for one don't own a dictionary...hear my mother to this day saying
"look it up" which if I had followed her direction I wouldn't have
graduated from high school...not a pretty picture but a reality which I
readily admit I cannot fix

Judithon 3 hours sleep
>
>   Nancy
>   Paying her share of the rent.
> in
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:59:53 -0500
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Subject:      Re: Pre-occupation.
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Judith, all,

Speaking from experience the mother complex is not something that is turned
off with a switch. There is an unspeakable rage and shame associated with
the binding of a man's (btw, mine,) instincts and sexuality with the
archetypal energy of the mother. This is backgrounded in every relationship
with a woman.

More starkly, the absolute force behind sexual penetration is an
unconscious terribleness which even the image of frozenness, or icy
wasteland, of a place where nothing onviously lives, cannot approximate.
That this is unconsciously balanced by the sunniness of the puer, the
passion of the creative appollo, the attractiveness of the animal is what,
for me, draws the world picture of a masculinity unable to bear itself.

***

What this means for the position of the woman I don't directly know
although I suspect that a woman should have enough feeling to be able to be
extremely careful about what she wishes to, and does in fact receive.

Of course this complicated by the necessity to work out, at most times, the
contrasexual quest vis a vis some kind of sexual relationship.

***

I feel men need feeling and valuation modelled for them, Judith. The
insight that the *rage is about something*, on the other hand, cannot be
modelled and until the man is ready, is not information which may be
transmitted from the outside into the inside. I had to hit close to the
bottom, and actually had to be returned to the home of my real mother (at
38!) before I got enough of a taste of the salt and the fear and the anger
to begin to watch my

dreams. Right off, they were full of ice.

***
off to work!

HooN

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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:12:54 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Pre-occupation.

On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:36:57 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:

>Nancy, Walter,
>
>Int
>>Walter, any and all,
>>
>>    I was being a bit kind to say 'abstractions'.  What I actually believe
>>is that  there a degree of autism involve in these expressions.
>
>Nancy, could you say what you mean by *autism* in this context...are you
>saying they can't relate or can't feel or live in their own world? I'm not
>sure how you are using the word...tks
====
      N: A very valid question, Judith, and one I realized needed answering
      even before you posed it.  I was going by a definition I read some years
      ago that autistic speach was based on private meanings which might be  known only to the speaker.
>
>  As so a degree of
>> ' 'please come to me, for it is not within my acceptable definition of
>>myself that
>>  I always come all the way to you'.  My suspicion is that this is part of what
>>Nathan Schwartz-Salant is talking about with 'fear of the feminine' which for
>>  him is linked with 'Mother Complex' and fear of engulfment.  He thinks
>>that it
>>  is a major factor in every man, particularly in their relationship to women.
>well, I certainly think there is an archetypal experience going on...
>Hoon keeps pointing this out to me when I say in a lamenting wale *are
>there *any* men freed of their mother!!!!!??*
>
>And Nancy I think the other side of this is the woman's need to stay in
>connection, to be in relationship not just to men but to everything...I
>recall an illuminating conversation with a man I was in love with in the
>midst of a fear moment for both of us...he said that the anxiety I was
>feeling, feeling cut off from him was the same anxiety that he felt being
>engulfed by me...he also said that this fear of engulfment is overcome by
>the urge to mate, but after that the man will go back to the safety of
>separation which is when the woman reacts from the feeling of
>disconnection...I *Know* this is my own life with both my marriages in
>which the seeds of failure for me were sown in the first week back from the
>honeymoon when both men retreated and I took it as rejection after being
>hotly pursued by each for months...now I am aware of this, things are less
>perplexing...and I saw this in my son's ex wife who would follow him
>everywhere, her fear of separation was so intense.

       N: Those are very clear examples I think, Judith.  However I have some
       question in my mind as to whether this need for connection comes from
       the feminine or from the feeling function.  Jung confused the two himself
       to some extent.  I am inclined to vote for the Feeling function.  It seems
       to me that Robert may be farther over on the feeling side than, perhaps,
       Walter, Charles and Hoon.  I wonder if you, Judith, do not test quite close
       to the center as I do?  Culture tends to pull us all over to Thinking as the
       more highly valued function (a paradox there perhaps?)
>
>And now with my newfound knowledge it seems I'm looking for the proverbial
>needle in a haystack...I often wonder how my son's mother thing plays out,
>but he's left handed and...well, we went there before;-)

       N: I too have wondered about these things in regard to my sons.  The one
       who has been deemed bipolar (who incidenally is much better thanks to
       a new [for him] and more effective medication)  ...,<getting snarled> He
       tests quite F and does not care much for abstractions.  He has, however,
       reacted to a fear of engulfment from females in his life.  Being 'met' and
       establishing a sense of connectedness are important to him.  Despite his
       other difficulties, as an Extraverted Feeling type he is extreme good at this.
>>
>>
>>    I am quite prepared to entertain this theory, while admitting that I
>>don't fully
>>  understand it.  I'm sure that women also experience some fear of engulfment.
>>  How could they not, when so many even yet adopt life styles which only
>>  implement the values of the men in their lives.  This is a part of Selficide.
>
>Well, I have experienced this in my life but I didn't see it as selficide,
>but a learning about the masculine within me, admittedly I didn't call it
>the masculine, I wondered why I couldn't relate to the girls and I was more
>comfortable with the guys...I very much operated from my masculine side for
>many years and distained my feminine a lot because the women around me
>seemed like aliens and did very hurtful things to me for reasons which I
>had no clue...when I got to my mentor's work on the feminine and the
>mapping of the relational aspect, it was like a light went on and I could
>see who women, meaning the feminine, were for the first time in my
>life...the research about how little girls punish by not speaking to
>someone...this comes out of the relational mapping and when one of the
>girls in a group does something to break the connectionrelationship, the
>punishment is to cut them off...I experienced this over and over as a young
>girl and it perplexed me...years later gaining the data I gained an
>understanding...

       N: I don't know that any woman expexiences it as Selficide while they are
       in it.  (The S stands for the divinity in each of us, while the small s stands
       for the Ego.)  I'm sure my mother didn't.  That was to me part of her
       Selficide.  She considered that she was doing the Right thing.  But her
        standard was set by patriarchy rather than an evolution of her own personal
        divinity within.
       I wonder, Judith, from what you have said before, weren't you a professional
       woman most of your married life?  I hadn't the impression that you had lived
       submerged in the life of a man for an extended period.
>
>In my mentor's work she identified a very definite division between those
>women who map one to many and those that map one to one...those mapping one
>to many come from a self in relationship to many, thus they prioritize
>through self interest, those mapping one to one are maped *by* the
>relationship and prioritize using time as one means, ie: everyother Sunday
>we go to my parents and the others your parents...the conflicts come when
>the prioritization hits a snag like when a working mother has to go out of
>town and her child is sick...
>Anyway writing this makes it too simple because there is lots of
>underpinnings implied here...
>
>  And
>>  it does induce fear, the degree depending, of course, on the degree of
>> personal reward they are able to experience that that life style (What
>>does Kate
>>  do?  Presumptuous again, of me, no doubt.)
>>
>>   I should add that I do not use the word 'autistic' in a perjorative
>>way.  You
>>men, in addition to anything else you might be doing, are trying to work
>>out ideas
>>  which are - I gather - somewhat new to you, and are trying them out on one
>>another.
>
>Nancy, I may be misunderstanding but when I read this there seems to be an
>assumption that we females know and the guys don't...that we females
>understand ourselves, but the men don't understand themselves...I think it
>has more to do with exploring a different (latent) aspect of ourselves...

      Hmmm...I'd rather thought that the 'I gather' took care of that, but perhaps
      not.  In a sense it is probably true that 'we females know' in the sense that
      the slaves knew more about the masters than the master did about the
      slaves.  We have had reason to need to know, rather than being able to
      get away with projecting our on wishes and rationalizations on the Other.
>
>  I believe that a degree of autism is inevitable.  If this were not so
>> what work would Jung's follows have to do in amplifying and clarifying
>>his work?
>
>But isn't it a framing which is being explored? Maybe this is my prejudice
>against psychology seeing things from a "brokenshadow" standpoint...I much
>prefer Jean Houston and Robert Master's work on evoking potential selves...
>Though it would have been nice had the Sculptor worked out his mother        thang:-)

      I'm sorry, Judith.  I don't fully grok the 'framing' business.  It seems to have
      been explored here at some length.  I did recognize just about post time
      that what I wrote could have been taken as 'broken shadow'.  It may have
      been a little of 'tit for tat' creeping in, as I have indicated that writing which
       is acknowledged to be in some degree inaccessable, and yet the writer
       seems to feel (it or I) should attend, is shadow.  That wasn't quite as clearly
        put as I'd like.  Perhaps it's understandable?

>>
>>   I expect there were issues in you post(s) of which  I am not, right now,
>> mindful.  Perhaps I can return for them another time.
>>
>>   How are you doing?
>>
>>   You spell entirely too well.
>
>Well, I for one don't own a dictionary...hear my mother to this day saying
>"look it up" which if I had followed her direction I wouldn't have
>graduated from high school...not a pretty picture but a reality which I
>readily admit I cannot fix
>
>     Judithon 3 hours sleep

       Me too, Judith.  What are we losing sleep over and why?
>>
>>   Nancy
>>   Paying her share of the rent.
         >> in        ???
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:12:00 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      rent &c [1 of 2 posts] was Re: [P] Concrete thoughts
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Nancy, Walter, all:

Walter wrote:

>I guess when we go from one level to another that is a branching ...

I think what Walter meant was "when we go from one level to another that is
a significant choice (what Charles would call a branching)", and that the
"Charles ... branching" bit was not as important to Walter as the
"significant choice" idea, which was what he was trying to get across.
Could be wrong, of course, but that's how I read his words.  Or may be
something like "when we go from one level to another that is a significant
choice (Oh, and hi Charles, I'll call that a "branching" because I liked
your Tree essay and think it fits)"...

> As far as I know, I owe Charles no rent, either morally or
> metaphorically so at this time I am still disinclined to go there.

Seems to me that there are three possible ways to look at what you might
conceivably "owe" me -- or anyone might "owe" anyone -- in this space:

We might I suppose have (i) a personal debt, though I'm not sure what that
could possibly be beyond an apology if one of us has engaged in slurring or
dissing another and the other hasn't.  Me, I'm not a landlord here, so I
don't think any rent is owed either.  If there's a debt owed between Nancy
and myself and it's in this category and Nancy owes it, it must be a pretty
small debt, and I'll be more than satisfied with a haiku.  And if I owe it,
Nancy should send me the bill, and I'll tot it up and see whether I agree:
maybe I'll be the one who pays a haiku.

We might "owe" (ii) a reciprocal debt in the sense of an obligation to give
as much as we receive.  I've seen this suggested as part of the contract
for forming an online community, ie "we expect that you'll contribute your
own insights and knowledge and goodwill regularly if you want to be
subscribed and receive the insights, knowledge and warmth of others".  But
that doesn't seem to be personal to the two parties, more like something in
the social contract between "you" or "I" and "all of us", and I don't think
Walter has such a clause in the Psyber-L written contract, and I doubt it's
in the unwritten expectations either, since we seem to like our "lurkers"
and as far as I know noone here is thrown out for not posting...

And (iii) we might "owe" each other a measure of civility -- though dealing
with psyche to my mind may demand a greater freedom of expression than the
traditional "polite english tea party".  My own sense is that we should be
civil (i) until psyche needs a fiercer mode of expression, and (ii) if a
bit of civility seems like the way to proceed while navigating a difficult
passage, and (iii) after whatever difficulty arose has been handled to
mutual satisfaction: but I'm not sure that means much, I think it may be
like saying we shouldn't use our umbrellas unless it starts to rain, can
take them down again if the rain seems to be stopping, and put them away
entirely if the sun comes out -- and I don't think people need to be told
that.

I do tend to think Nancy and I seem to face off on this one.  Politeness vs
integrity or something of the sort -- I'm coming up with my own words for
the two poles here, but I'm not wedded to them -- does seem to be an
ongoing issue both in the "world at large" and in my own life.

I'm one of those who (traditionally) gets in trouble for saying the
"impolite" or "impolitic" thing at the tea party because I believe it, or
think we need to wake up to it, or think it's funny, or whatever.  Have
been known to fart as a means of making conversational punctuation <grin>.
I used to talk incessantly about "the bomb" at a time when polite society
didn't want such a negative issue mentioned.  And so on.  For me, breaking
the "politeness" barrier is what brought "freedom".  My wife, however,
attained "freedom" through politeness, and sees it as the cement that holds
social life together.  When we clash on this, if we can recognize "freedom"
as the common value driving our two different "branches", the conflict
seems far more resolvable than if we see each other as threatening freeedom
by being (a) too polite to be really honest and (b) too honest to be really
polite, respectively.

*

Now, in case I'm the one who owes Nancy in category (i) above...

I suspect that Nancy finds my emphasis on correct spelling an unwarranted
inhibition on her free expression, while I find her willingness to let
typos remain in her text an unwarranted violation of the proprieties of
civil discourse...  so in this case, I'm being the stickler for politeness,
she for something like the integrity of her spontaneous "word jazz".

I've tried to suggest she might take a little more care with her spelling,
since on occasion her typose compromise her meaning -- but if Nancy's
process in writing is a very spontaneous and immediate one (unlike mine,
which is time-consuming and labored) I can see why she's reject the
suggestion.  Maybe I can put it this way:

Some musicians go for the live performance and occasionally sacrifice a
flubbed note for the flow of melody and emotion, some go for the recorded
performance and use multiple edits to achieve their version of "perfection"
-- and both have their virtues, both have their "place in the sun" in terms
of my tree analogy.  And if Nancy is along the "Jack Kerouac" limb and I'm
along the "John Fowles" limb, or if she's along "Charlie Parker" and I'm
along "Glenn Gould", or if she's along "Jackson Pollock" and I'm along "El
Greco" -- that's as it should be.

Whatever I as a Fowles / Gould / Greco type may passionately think or say.

Besides which, Shakespeare didn't spell correctly, the whole idea of
correct spelling is a recent addition to human discourse, and one which
(for good reason) may be fading as we speak...  In fact language is
constantly enriching itself with new spellings, "prolly" being the one that
most recently made me laugh and which now seems almost a fixture on the
net, and about the only reason I can think of for suspecting that our
increasingly multimedia world will care much about spelling in the future
is the fact that so far at least, computers -- dumb machines! -- demand it,
because they haven't yet figured out than when I type "hoipbone" I mean
"hipbone" <grin>.

So if Nancy were to so much as hint that, yes, it's in part a Kerouac vs
Fowles or Bird vs Gould issue with her, I'd nod and shrug and mutter to
myself and never bring the issue of spelling up again, except to ask for
clarification if I didn't recognize and understand a reference.

All of which would be fairly easy for me, since I'm as used to arguing the
"honesty / integrity / spontaneity / jazz" side of the equation as the
"politeness / integrity / formality / classical" side...

And I hope that explanation goes some way to paying any debt I may owe Nancy...

> There may be some projection involved in my inclining.  I think
> he reminds me of my big brother who was not all together please
> with the advent of Llamp into the kingdom where he had for ten
> years been the one and only sun.

This, for me, is where thinks get delicate in ways that I'd like to learn
about.

I understand the idea of projection, have plenty of memories of authority
figures who infringed my liberty and of one specific beloved figure who
betrayed me (this was my father, and he did it by dying on me, so I
understand in retrospect that it wasn't a betrayal, but it felt like one at
the time), and can see that I project my past unresolved emotions about
these figures onto current situations and specific people from time to
time.  But I don't know nearly as much about how to resolve projections --
whether I'm putting them out or they're coming at me.  As time goes by,
many of them seem to get resolved, so it's not that I haven't witnessed it
happening -- but the *way* they get resolved seems to me more of a mystery
than a matter of technique.

I don't feel threatened in an elder brotherly way by your presence in this
shared space, Nancy.  There are stylistic differences between us, there are
posts of yours that I enjoy and others that I have difficulty following
(sometimes I have difficulty knowing who is quoting whom, and where your
own comments begin and end) -- but I'm fundamentally pretty much of a
"loner" in some ways, and enjoy intelligent company.

My best friend for many years was a young poet I compared to Rilke and
Octavio Paz -- two giants in my estimation -- and the fact that his best
poem was to my mind better than anything I'd written wasn't a problem, it
was a cause for deep thankfulness and public praise.  We lived in the same
small town, so there would have been plenty of room for sibling rivalry,
but it didn't seem to be an issue.

And as for my figuring in anyone's mind as "the one and only sun" -- you
kindly nominated me for the role, and I politely declined it...

*

Maybe there's room here for some dialogue about projections and styles
between us, Nancy.  I'm not sure, I'm a little scared by your continual
references to spelling in recent posts, as though I'd hit a nerve and you
viewed me as your uninvited dentist...

[I'm off to the dentist today, and he's sure to hit at least three nerves,
because I need about three root canals -- <wry grin> -- and I don't like
the prospect one little bit: *all* dentistry is a gross invasion of privacy
as far as I can see, and IMO dentists should pay patients for the privilege
of exercising their art, rather than the other way around.  But then the
toothache is even worse, and for that I can only blame myself].

*

And if "spelling" turns out to be the issue we should explore, perhaps we
should think about the sense in which to "spell" is to cast a curse or
blessing, and "grammar" is essentially the same word as "glamour", the old
and lovely term for the illusion / projection cast by a magician's spell,
cf the term "grimoire" from the same root, meaning a book of spells.

Lots of interesting archetypal resonance available in those two seemingly
dry and pedantic words.

Best to all,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 10:13:18 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      apology &c [2 of 2 posts] was Re: [P} Concrete thoughts
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Nancy:

I seem to be establishing a tradition here of responding to what I perceive
as discomfort with me with two posts, one addressed to figuring out the
process by going into it in detail, and the other to healing the possible
offence by direct apology.  And I think that doing (i) leaves me in some
way free to do (ii) without the qualifications which so often reduce
apologies to seeming meaninglessness.

If I have offended you in any way, I apologize.

Specifically -- and I say this because I think "general purpose" apologies
sometimes fail because they don't address the specifics which are important
to the party being apologized to -- if my post about spelling and "Media"
seemed curt and dismissive, I apologise.

Those are the words I used to describe your response, and they may well fit
my post too, which was written rather tersely in the expectation that it
would be taken as a request for future clarity rather than as an attack,
with no offence intended -- but which probably conveyed some frustration I
felt at not knowing what "Circe and Media" meant.

If you picked up on that frustration and it felt like an attack, I
apologise.  Had I had greater sensitivity or more time, I would have made
my emotional tone clearer, mentioned that frustration of this sort is a
very mild thing with me -- sometimes quite valuable for the insights it
produces but not to be taken personally, and added enough compliments on
your haiku and visual posts for you to be clear that overall I'm
appreciative of your presence.

*

Here endeth the apology.  Having said which...  I should also admit, in the
interests of full disclosure... and hoping it doesn't subvert the apology,
which is genuine...

I am still somewhat frustrated by some of the typographic conventions you
follow.

*

But then I'm equally frustrated by the typographic conventions that plenty
of other people follow in e-space -- and in any case it never bothers me
unless I'm getting some value from the posts in question and find some of
the value hard to access...

To me, it's not a personal issue: it's an irritant in me of the sort that
creates pearls.  As I told Walter when he visited me in LA, I've half a
mind to write a book about graphic conventions in e-space, which I think
deserve the kind of attention that eventually clarifies discourse in any
new medium.  To me, this is like thinking about "montage" in film circa
1918, an exciting opportunity to shape human communication in ways that
facilitate understanding, address the needs of psyche, and enhance beauty.
All of which means that any frustration I do feel along these lines is
grist to my mill, and that I can clarify what I'd like to see as the
emerging aesthetic of cyberspace precisely by noting what "works" for me
and what doesn't.

And I've in any case been interested in "layout on the page" -- something
which I think interests you too, Nancy, no? -- ever since I decided that
poems with very long first lines and shorter lines lower on the page looked
as though they were topheavy and might topple over...  a perfectly
ridiculous idea, on the face of it...  and invented a form that required
equal line lengths (which on a typewriter can be exact) as a constraint
roughly equivalent to a stress count or rhyme scheme, or the 17-syllable
count in (traditional Japanese) haiku.

I'd like to see us move towards e-space graphic conventions which maximize
clarity and minimize discord -- but then I also admire the variety and
individuality of people's styles, and hope that the emergent conventions
will allow that variety to continue, so that we don't lose the "jazz" to a
monotony of any kind.

*

And if the "jazz" imagery works for you, Nancy, could I think of your typos
as "blue notes", and could you think of my correct spelling as "classical
technique"?

Best to all, as usual,




--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:42:53 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Pre-occupation.
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On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 11:12:54 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
wrote:

[Judith wrote:]
>>And Nancy I think the other side of this is the woman's need to stay in
>>connection, to be in relationship not just to men but to everything...I
>>recall an illuminating conversation with a man I was in love with in the
>>midst of a fear moment for both of us...he said that the anxiety I was
>>feeling, feeling cut off from him was the same anxiety that he felt being
>>engulfed by me...he also said that this fear of engulfment is overcome by
>>the urge to mate, but after that the man will go back to the safety of
>>separation which is when the woman reacts from the feeling of
>>disconnection...I *Know* this is my own life with both my marriages in
>>which the seeds of failure for me were sown in the first week back from the
>>honeymoon when both men retreated and I took it as rejection after being
>>hotly pursued by each for months...now I am aware of this, things are less
>>perplexing...and I saw this in my son's ex wife who would follow him
>>everywhere, her fear of separation was so intense.
>
>       N: Those are very clear examples I think, Judith.  However I have some
>       question in my mind as to whether this need for connection comes from
>       the feminine or from the feeling function.  Jung confused the two himself
>       to some extent.  I am inclined to vote for the Feeling function.  It seems
>       to me that Robert may be farther over on the feeling side than, perhaps,
>       Walter, Charles and Hoon.  I wonder if you, Judith, do not test quite close
>       to the center as I do?  Culture tends to pull us all over to Thinking as the
>       more highly valued function (a paradox there perhaps?)

In my own experience, I with my strong T preference find myself more the
followed than the follower than Phil with his strong F preference.  He's
more likely to say he misses me, wishes we were together more.  I love
him quite sincerely and deeply, but I don't quite feel the same need to
be with him when he's not around that he seems to feel for me.

Though perhaps he's more mature than I and has worked out his engulfment
problems in our 10 years together better than I.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:44:58 -0400
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Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
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Nancy,
Thanks for the great image...many laughs and will file this away for future
use...what color were her PJs

Judith heading for a nap

PS Hope the Jury Duty is Grand...I have managed to avoid that part of my US
Citizenry...and with Lamp there to light the shadows won't that be
interesting...
>>
>>One thing that made me chuckle was that I have likened some of your posts,
>>Nancy,  to Jackson Pollack paintings, he of course was an abstractionist,
>>almost archetypically.  For people who do not operate with art at that
>>level of abstraction his work was an outrage, if I recall, they could not
>>access that work at all!  Accessing each other's abstractions of choice is
>>quite an art!
>
>      I should say that it is a 'choice' rather than and 'art'...or
>perhaps I wish to
>      emphasis that it is a choice whether to exercize ones 'art' in this
>direction.
>         It seems to me that you, Walter, are tending to imply here (and
>not for the
>         first time) here that I, Nancy, am somehow deficient in the ability to
>         abstract.  I doubt this.  In fact for some time some years ago, I
>worked
>         for a psychiatrist, for whom Engish was a second language, writing
>         abstract of professional journal articles.  Worked, I might add,
>to the mutual
>         satisfaction of both....until the day she threw one too many temper
>         tantrums.  If you have never seen a 75 year, tiny lady
>psychiatrist in her
>         pajamas jump up and down on her front lawn in rage, then you, Walter,
>         have missed a very memorable sight.
>>
>>~~~
>>
>>I guess when we go from one level to another that is a branching ...
>
>          As far as I know, I owe Charles no rent, either morally or
>metaphorically
>        so at this time I am still disinclined to go there.
>          There may be some projection involved in my inclining.  I think he
>         reminds me of my big brother who was not all together please with the
>         advent of Llamp into the kingdom where he had for ten years been the
>          one and only sun.
>>
>>~~~
>>
>>
>>How am I doing?  (As Charles put it.)
>>
>>
>>Walter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>__________________________________________________________________
>>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>>
>>
>>
>
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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:45:06 -0400
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Hoon,

We have spoken of this often and what I am always left in are tears...I
never understand the rage or shame...I remember Wilbur and unnamable
raging...being oppressed by the archetypal of patriarchy doesn't have these
same qualities it seems to me...or maybe I misspoke...I resonnated
differently to it plus raging at the patriarchy seemed a waste of energy so
I just figured out how to function the way I wanted to admittedly resorting
to manipulation often to pull it off but what the hell *he* deserved it
;-)...my issues taken on to resolve for the universe thankfully weren't as
ferorcious...what I am left with when I hear you is that I am doomed as a
woman to ever having a relationship let along sex again...maybe this is my
projection but frankly this makes me mad which you know I don't do very
often...here's where I get tied up in your *complex* framings...what
happens for me is that there is no hope and thus despair, there is no
awareness of any level to go to to solve it (prayer? the sculptor is
talking about becoming a priest)...what is the way out in your way of
holding this? doesn't seem to be any...yuck...I think I just ran into Freud
and Jung in tandem...

and besides I can't even take the guy a sandwich while he's working for
fear of having him have a mother reaction...it occurs to me that this
framing of the feminine as the great mother, the grand myth is subversive
AND keeps me in the double bind as a punishment for some offense that I am
doomed to commit no matter what I do...so now I see F & J as ambassadors of
the catch 22, keeper of the patriarchy, and now I am reeeeeally mad...I
knew I had problems with the masculinazation of psychology or is that
redundant and all I can say is: It ain't nice to fool mother nature!  And
I'm  working on the NEW myth so they better be nice to me...

So maybe need to check the duplicity

>Judith, all,
>
>Speaking from experience the mother complex is not something that is turned
>off with a switch. There is an unspeakable rage and shame associated with
>the binding of a man's (btw, mine,) instincts and sexuality with the
>archetypal energy of the mother. This is backgrounded in every relationship
>with a woman.
>
>More starkly, the absolute force behind sexual penetration is an
>unconscious terribleness which even the image of frozenness, or icy
>wasteland, of a place where nothing onviously lives, cannot approximate.

This is new to me...I thought the problem was about being engulfed by the
organism... not to get x rated here...

>That this is unconsciously balanced by the sunniness of the puer, the
>passion of the creative appollo, the attractiveness of the animal is what,
>for me, draws the world picture of a masculinity unable to bear itself.
>
>***
>
>What this means for the position of the woman I don't directly know
>although I suspect that a woman should have enough feeling to be able to be
>extremely careful about what she wishes to, and does in fact receive.

Well, what I know from the exchange of energies is that in order for the
man to rise beyond the physical the woman has to inhabit the physical...she
goes down he can go up...the mistake for the woman is to stay up and the
man is in fact left with down...thus *masculinity unable to bear itself*...

>
>Of course this complicated by the necessity to work out, at most times, the
>contrasexual quest vis a vis some kind of sexual relationship.
>
Contrasexual quest? I think the dictionaries went up in flames...

>***
>
>I feel men need feeling and valuation modelled for them, Judith.

But doesn't this feel like the mother to me if I do that? The good mother
which is the other side of the same coin? I'm feeling double bind here.

The
>insight that the *rage is about something*, on the other hand, cannot be
>modelled and until the man is ready, is not information which may be
>transmitted from the outside into the inside. I had to hit close to the
>bottom, and actually had to be returned to the home of my real mother (at
>38!) before I got enough of a taste of the salt and the fear and the anger
>to begin to watch my
>
>dreams. Right off, they were full of ice.
>
>***
>off to work!
>
>HooN

Judith feeling very sorry for all of us and praying

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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 13:45:26 -0400
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Thanks Nancy,

>On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:36:57 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:
>
>>Nancy, Walter,
>>
>>Int
>>>Walter, any and all,
>>>
>>>    I was being a bit kind to say 'abstractions'.  What I actually believe
>>>is that  there a degree of autism involve in these expressions.
>>
>>Nancy, could you say what you mean by *autism* in this context...are you
>>saying they can't relate or can't feel or live in their own world? I'm not
>>sure how you are using the word...tks
>====
>      N: A very valid question, Judith, and one I realized needed answering
>      even before you posed it.  I was going by a definition I read some years
>      ago that autistic speach was based on private meanings which might
>be  known only to the speaker.
J: Thanks...now I'll read read with this in mind...which then becomes
interesting to me given my present intense experience with the sculptor's
art...it is multidimensional multi level...and one of these dimensions of
meaning manifested in the physical is a *private meaning(s)* which Is known
only to the artist...part of his immersion into the realm of concept and
thought seems to be to transmute, reveal, understand probe, release
something to which he and only he is privy...his private story...so the
word would apply to a dimension of what manifested...when he says "It has
done what I needed it to do for me" which in one dimension is unwordable
thus the process of creating the body of work...on another dimension it is
concretized abstractly for his audience who may or may not grok it, but it
is the teacher in him who wants to teach about the journey...I think it
then is about resonance, what dimensions of the totality can I relate
to...when I experience his work I am brought to a wordless place of
totality with tears in my eyes...I can sense the magnitude of the need to
do it and the ferorciousness of the cost it extracts...however, I do not
*know* the private meanings because I have never experienced nor can I
experience the *mother complex*, thus by default I can not relate to the
private meanings which to him are not abstractions but end up being
abstractions to me...I often remember the man I loved on the floor in a
heap day after day in excruciating emotional pain caused by watching the
Shirley MacClain movie about the piano teacher and her student...when in
the movie she makes him rub her feet my love realizing in the moment what
had happened to him imploded...for some reason I have been given these
experiences and I kiss the earth that I got in the girl line coming in...

>>
>>  As so a degree of
>>> ' 'please come to me, for it is not within my acceptable definition of
>>>myself that
>>>  I always come all the way to you'.  My suspicion is that this is part
>>>of what
>>>Nathan Schwartz-Salant is talking about with 'fear of the feminine' which for
>>>  him is linked with 'Mother Complex' and fear of engulfment.  He thinks
>>>that it
>>>  is a major factor in every man, particularly in their relationship to
>>>women.
>>well, I certainly think there is an archetypal experience going on...
>>Hoon keeps pointing this out to me when I say in a lamenting wale *are
>>there *any* men freed of their mother!!!!!??*
>>
>>And Nancy I think the other side of this is the woman's need to stay in
>>connection, to be in relationship not just to men but to everything...I
>>recall an illuminating conversation with a man I was in love with in the
>>midst of a fear moment for both of us...he said that the anxiety I was
>>feeling, feeling cut off from him was the same anxiety that he felt being
>>engulfed by me...he also said that this fear of engulfment is overcome by
>>the urge to mate, but after that the man will go back to the safety of
>>separation which is when the woman reacts from the feeling of
>>disconnection...I *Know* this is my own life with both my marriages in
>>which the seeds of failure for me were sown in the first week back from the
>>honeymoon when both men retreated and I took it as rejection after being
>>hotly pursued by each for months...now I am aware of this, things are less
>>perplexing...and I saw this in my son's ex wife who would follow him
>>everywhere, her fear of separation was so intense.
>
>       N: Those are very clear examples I think, Judith.  However I have some
>       question in my mind as to whether this need for connection comes from
>       the feminine or from the feeling function.  Jung confused the two
>himself
>       to some extent.  I am inclined to vote for the Feeling function.
>It seems
>       to me that Robert may be farther over on the feeling side than, perhaps,
>       Walter, Charles and Hoon.  I wonder if you, Judith, do not test
>quite close
>       to the center as I do?
Actually I'm exactly in the center...and my feeling sense is how I navigate
for the most part...however, I am by training in my field of adult ed,
trained to go *to* the place where the person is and see from hisher
perspective inorder to open the space for learning, to acknowledge the
*other's* knowing and being...plus in those 7 years of rewiring I first had
to decode the *other's* perspective in order to find the
alignmentsunalignments which were causing me to feel crazy...and it took
huge efforts to be able to *word* what I felt because during that time I
was always in aplace of *explaining* who I was because the *others*
couldln't see me, first because they didn't know I existed..part of that
process was aided by my empathic nature, but like any strength it is a
weakness...which I am sensative to keep in balance

  Culture tends to pull us all over to Thinking as the
>       more highly valued function (a paradox there perhaps?)
>>
>>And now with my newfound knowledge it seems I'm looking for the proverbial
>>needle in a haystack...I often wonder how my son's mother thing plays out,
>>but he's left handed and...well, we went there before;-)
>
>       N: I too have wondered about these things in regard to my sons.  The one
>       who has been deemed bipolar (who incidenally is much better thanks to
>       a new [for him] and more effective medication)  ...,<getting snarled> He
>       tests quite F and does not care much for abstractions.  He has, however,
>       reacted to a fear of engulfment from females in his life.  Being
>'met' and
>       establishing a sense of connectedness are important to him.  Despite his
>       other difficulties, as an Extraverted Feeling type he is extreme
>good at this.

Yes, we are never given a burden without some ability to lift...I was early
on diagnosed as bipolar but I the universal intervention by a doctor when I
was 21 gave me the key to as he called it *figure it out for yourself or
take the medication for the rest of your life*...I figured it out thru much
hell using whatever strategy would get me to the next place...it feltlike a
journey of going to the moon while building the space ship...but times are
different now...
>>>
>>>
>>>    I am quite prepared to entertain this theory, while admitting that I
>>>don't fully
>>>  understand it.  I'm sure that women also experience some fear of
>>>engulfment.
>>>  How could they not, when so many even yet adopt life styles which only
>>>  implement the values of the men in their lives.  This is a part of
>>>Selficide.
>>
>>Well, I have experienced this in my life but I didn't see it as selficide,
>>but a learning about the masculine within me, admittedly I didn't call it
>>the masculine, I wondered why I couldn't relate to the girls and I was more
>>comfortable with the guys...I very much operated from my masculine side for
>>many years and distained my feminine a lot because the women around me
>>seemed like aliens and did very hurtful things to me for reasons which I
>>had no clue...when I got to my mentor's work on the feminine and the
>>mapping of the relational aspect, it was like a light went on and I could
>>see who women, meaning the feminine, were for the first time in my
>>life...the research about how little girls punish by not speaking to
>>someone...this comes out of the relational mapping and when one of the
>>girls in a group does something to break the connectionrelationship, the
>>punishment is to cut them off...I experienced this over and over as a young
>>girl and it perplexed me...years later gaining the data I gained an
>>understanding...
>
>       N: I don't know that any woman expexiences it as Selficide while
>they are
>       in it.  (The S stands for the divinity in each of us, while the
>small s stands
>       for the Ego.)  I'm sure my mother didn't.  That was to me part of her
>       Selficide.  She considered that she was doing the Right thing.  But her
>        standard was set by patriarchy rather than an evolution of her own
>personal
>        divinity within.
>       I wonder, Judith, from what you have said before, weren't you a
>professional
>       woman most of your married life?  I hadn't the impression that you
>had lived
>       submerged in the life of a man for an extended period.

Well, for the first 20 years not only submerged but captured by my
father...he who hooked me early on as the psychologists would say to make
up from his childhood trauma...so in order to get unhooked first I had to
become conscious I *Was* hooked and did thanks to a true synchronicity too
bad little lamp wasn't around to help...anyway I then had to decode his
stuff, then decode me and then found the hook and then had to unhook
it...it was the second time he disowned me first at 20 and then again at
forty something I finally unhooked the last piece...my first husband came
and took me away from him thus the first disowning but it didn't work and
back I went just like being pulled back by a huge rubber band...now my work
life was not spent as the *usual* idea of a career woman...I didn't turn
into a man or wear suits or any of that...and because I could see systems I
didn't get hooked by it and in fact had a merry time...all the time working
because I thot men got a raw deal *supporting* a family and I felt it was
important for me to share in that responsibililty, thus choosing only to
have one child...so I did not have the experience many women did as wives
or as career women...
>>
>>In my mentor's work she identified a very definite division between those
>>women who map one to many and those that map one to one...those mapping one
>>to many come from a self in relationship to many, thus they prioritize
>>through self interest, those mapping one to one are maped *by* the
>>relationship and prioritize using time as one means, ie: everyother Sunday
>>we go to my parents and the others your parents...the conflicts come when
>>the prioritization hits a snag like when a working mother has to go out of
>>town and her child is sick...
>>Anyway writing this makes it too simple because there is lots of
>>underpinnings implied here...
>>
>>  And
>>>  it does induce fear, the degree depending, of course, on the degree of
>>> personal reward they are able to experience that that life style (What
>>>does Kate
>>>  do?  Presumptuous again, of me, no doubt.)
>>>
>>>   I should add that I do not use the word 'autistic' in a perjorative
>>>way.  You
>>>men, in addition to anything else you might be doing, are trying to work
>>>out ideas
>>>  which are - I gather - somewhat new to you, and are trying them out on one
>>>another.
>>
>>Nancy, I may be misunderstanding but when I read this there seems to be an
>>assumption that we females know and the guys don't...that we females
>>understand ourselves, but the men don't understand themselves...I think it
>>has more to do with exploring a different (latent) aspect of ourselves...
>
>      Hmmm...I'd rather thought that the 'I gather' took care of that, but
>perhaps
>      not.  In a sense it is probably true that 'we females know' in the
>sense that
>      the slaves knew more about the masters than the master did about the
>      slaves.  We have had reason to need to know, rather than being able to
>      get away with projecting our on wishes and rationalizations on the Other.

I can see this tho it has not been my experience, however, I wonder at the
duplicity of the projections...I know there was considerable outburst in
the early feminist days around me by wives who were threatened by me
working and lots of men making comments to my then husband...to be sure I
fall into the camp where I think it takes two to tango...the energy work of
Barbara Brennan shows the energy exchanges between people in various what I
think Hoon may call complexes...and besides it the females who raise the
sons so I am acutely aware of mothers who are unconscious about this and
then we fall in love and marry the guys the mothers raised and on and
on...so what breaks the
pattern?
>>
>>  I believe that a degree of autism is inevitable.  If this were not so
>>> what work would Jung's follows have to do in amplifying and clarifying
>>>his work?
>>
>>But isn't it a framing which is being explored? Maybe this is my prejudice
>>against psychology seeing things from a "brokenshadow" standpoint...I much
>>prefer Jean Houston and Robert Master's work on evoking potential selves...
>>Though it would have been nice had the Sculptor worked out his mother
>>thang:-)
>
>      I'm sorry, Judith.  I don't fully grok the 'framing' business.  It
>seems to have
>      been explored here at some length.  I did recognize just about post time
>      that what I wrote could have been taken as 'broken shadow'.  It may have
>      been a little of 'tit for tat' creeping in, as I have indicated that
>writing which
>       is acknowledged to be in some degree inaccessable, and yet the writer
>       seems to feel (it or I) should attend, is shadow.  That wasn't
>quite as clearly
>        put as I'd like.  Perhaps it's understandable?

Yes... my problem is I get the framing business but not always the framing
ie: myth, shadow, psychology...
>
>>>
>>>   I expect there were issues in you post(s) of which  I am not, right now,
>>> mindful.  Perhaps I can return for them another time.
>>>
>>>   How are you doing?
>>>
>>>   You spell entirely too well.
>>
>>Well, I for one don't own a dictionary...hear my mother to this day saying
>>"look it up" which if I had followed her direction I wouldn't have
>>graduated from high school...not a pretty picture but a reality which I
>>readily admit I cannot fix
>>
>>     Judithon 3 hours sleep
>
>       Me too, Judith.  What are we losing sleep over and why?

I'm playing with the sculptor and I learned last night his mother...egad
>>>
>>>   Nancy
>>>   Paying her share of the rent.
>         >> in        ???
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________________________
>>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
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Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:19:55 -0400
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Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
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At 08:59 AM 7/8/98 -0400,  Walter wrote:

>      >My specific learning on all of this is:
>      >Being in the role of "list owner" it has been easy for me to remain
on that
>      >level of psyberspace ... where this is a list, and the boundaries
are in
>      >the files and in the software and so on.  Vital stuff!  I am not
joking and
>      >as a list owner i *need* to think and learn about that level of
psyberspace
>      >... in fact my need has been great and still is ... on that level
as well
>      >as the levels either side of that  :-)  (I can see them!)

Hi Walter,

When you move into announcing that you are the listowner you lose
me. On the one hand, you say you want to be one with us, but  then you
periodically seem to need to reassert that you are not just one of us - that
you have special (and parental) burdens and responsibilities that  are
beyond our concerns. It is this kind of navel gazing which I find distancing
and impersonalizing. Somehow whatever we do here seems to become about
you, and the processes of whatever is being done here between all of us is
somehow  scooped up into a basket where growth is cut off - like pulling up
plants by the roots to see how they are growing.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:38:02 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Pre-occupation.
In-Reply-To:  <v01550141b1c8dbb3cf31@[207.54.160.167]>
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At 09:36 AM 7/8/98 -0400, yJudith wrote:
>>>  I always come all the way to you'.  My suspicion is that this is part
of what
>>Nathan Schwartz-Salant is talking about with 'fear of the feminine' which
for
>>  him is linked with 'Mother Complex' and fear of engulfment.  He thinks
>>that it
>>  is a major factor in every man, particularly in their relationship to
women.
>well, I certainly think there is an archetypal experience going on...
>Hoon keeps pointing this out to me when I say in a lamenting wale *are
>there *any* men freed of their mother!!!!!??*

You see, I don't think this is what it is about at all. Men (and women) don't
need to be "freed" of their mothers (and fathers). They need to integrate
them.

We live in a world where children, especially boys, are ri[[ed away from
their mothers
as early as possible - divorced from identification to her. Wanting to
cuddle with
their mothers is seen as a weakness, a lack of maturity - not as a natural and
loving and NECESSARY part of each person's development.

With all things in life, one ,oves on when one has completed the integration
process. We don't allow children to do this with their mothers, and fathers
are rarely any good at integrating anything anyway. So children are ripped
from deep connection to anything - mother or father.

The adult male, then, is filled with feelings of guilt and inadequacy whenever
he has to deal with "the feminine" because he is still filled with the
cultural
dictum which says this is somehow undeveloped, unmasculine, etc. We rip
babies from the breast - and of course we don't let even half of them get to
the breast in the first place. Those who do, are usually nursed very briefly.

The child ho is allowed to self-wean does so - when the time comes. S/he
doesn't reject the mother, or the feminine, or anything - s/he just grows
to the next stage. We don't - because little of the natural growth process is
allowed - it is all aborted and we have 40 and 50 year old babies searching
for just one more nipple, one more suck, one more embrace, because the
process was not honoured and completed when they were tiny. If we don't
baby a baby, we end up with middle-aged babies incapable of nurturing
others because they were ripped out of their own nurturing, and so don't know
how to do it for others. Not only that, but their wounds are so deep that
nurturing others fllls them with inadequacy and fear - and rage at their
own inadequacies. They then project that rage on to the women in their
lives. And the story goes the same way with women. Every relationship we
have is filled with such anxiety because we are so sure it is going to end.
that we will be abandoned - which is how the little child interprets the
enforced separation. And then, of course, it becomes more complicated,
as the anxiety of waiting for the abandonment often propels us into doing
the abandoning ourselves.


Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Jul 1998 23:26:55 -0500
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      little llamps and ladybugs
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Judith writes,

>and besides I can't even take the guy a sandwich while he's working for
>fear of having him have a mother reaction...it occurs to me that this
>framing of the feminine as the great mother, the grand myth is subversive
>AND keeps me in the double bind as a punishment for some offense that I am
>doomed to commit no matter what I do...

Hey, risk that sandwich I say!

***

This has been an interesting day and I report about it after meeting with
Judith this evening knowing prior to our meet, that to some extent, the
implication of my suggestion ("I feel men need feeling and valuation
modelled for them, Judith." etc.) is that the feminine needs to embrace the
double bind to prove its *beingness*. This deserved the corrective I
tonight received.

It was distilled in two moments of synchronocity after I got over how
maddened Judith was and how inarticulate and resourceless I was...after
starting right off and saying it was "simpler than she thought." Both feet
do fit in mouth!

Anyway, I listened, and tried to to qualify my framing and got some sense
of where I couldn't go with, (yes, Nancy,) abstraction. But, then, sensing
an opening to explain or lecture Judith on my prinicipal intellectual
hangup, I started to say:

(low growling voice,) "Well, I just cannot see how the new pattern forms
and leaves the archetype behind" //

*bug flies under my chin and lands on my shirt*

(Judith starts laughing; reaches forward,)

"Oh look, that's great..."

(Judith's hand touches my shirt and draws back and for a moment a ladybug
is perched on her finger.)

***

Later, I feel I've understood from the point of limitation I am unable to
appreciate the *dance* (unless I'm willing to dance,) and making of it an
abstraction is an absurdity.

I note this, but start to (again!) qualify it. Judith raises her hand,

"Do you hear what song is playing?"

(I listen more carefully.) Judith laughs her delightful laugh.

"Que sera sera sera..."

***

Little llamps and ladybugs...the new myth is dancing.

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:03:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Pre-occupation.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne,

Thanks for your perspective...certainly informs my child raising of my
son...he's adopted which I chose over giving birth, but I was tenacious
with his father over allowing Jon to grow and develop naturally...his
father was raised by a control addict who at 7 said it was time for he and
his son to stop hugging and shake hands...yes, my limited experience with
this supports your view... when my son went thru a battery of tests for a
learning disability when he was 15  (he didn't have BTW just different
brain process) and was told that there wasn't a glitch in his
psychology...I took this to mean that the rearing process which included
keeping his out of public schools in a Montessori based education which
supported natural development was working...anyway this 4th at the
fireworks my son just reached over and took my hand for a moment and we
exchanged smiles...his girl friend is a very fortunate young woman...

Judith

>At 09:36 AM 7/8/98 -0400, yJudith wrote:
>>>>  N:I always come all the way to you'.  My suspicion is that this is part
>of what
>>>Nathan Schwartz-Salant is talking about with 'fear of the feminine' which
>for
>>>  him is linked with 'Mother Complex' and fear of engulfment.  He thinks
>>>that it
>>>  is a major factor in every man, particularly in their relationship to
>women.
>>J:well, I certainly think there is an archetypal experience going on...
>>Hoon keeps pointing this out to me when I say in a lamenting wale *are
>>there *any* men freed of their mother!!!!!??*
>
>You see, I don't think this is what it is about at all. Men (and women) don't
>need to be "freed" of their mothers (and fathers). They need to integrate
>them.
>
>We live in a world where children, especially boys, are ri[[ed away from
>their mothers
>as early as possible - divorced from identification to her. Wanting to
>cuddle with
>their mothers is seen as a weakness, a lack of maturity - not as a natural and
>loving and NECESSARY part of each person's development.
>
>With all things in life, one ,oves on when one has completed the integration
>process. We don't allow children to do this with their mothers, and fathers
>are rarely any good at integrating anything anyway. So children are ripped
>from deep connection to anything - mother or father.
>
>The adult male, then, is filled with feelings of guilt and inadequacy whenever
>he has to deal with "the feminine" because he is still filled with the
>cultural
>dictum which says this is somehow undeveloped, unmasculine, etc. We rip
>babies from the breast - and of course we don't let even half of them get to
>the breast in the first place. Those who do, are usually nursed very briefly.
>
>The child ho is allowed to self-wean does so - when the time comes. S/he
>doesn't reject the mother, or the feminine, or anything - s/he just grows
>to the next stage. We don't - because little of the natural growth process is
>allowed - it is all aborted and we have 40 and 50 year old babies searching
>for just one more nipple, one more suck, one more embrace, because the
>process was not honoured and completed when they were tiny. If we don't
>baby a baby, we end up with middle-aged babies incapable of nurturing
>others because they were ripped out of their own nurturing, and so don't know
>how to do it for others. Not only that, but their wounds are so deep that
>nurturing others fllls them with inadequacy and fear - and rage at their
>own inadequacies. They then project that rage on to the women in their
>lives. And the story goes the same way with women. Every relationship we
>have is filled with such anxiety because we are so sure it is going to end.
>that we will be abandoned - which is how the little child interprets the
>enforced separation. And then, of course, it becomes more complicated,
>as the anxiety of waiting for the abandonment often propels us into doing
>the abandoning ourselves.
>
>
>Julienne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
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LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:09:29 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: little llamps and ladybugs
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Yes, Stephen,
the new myth is dancing...

Judith in prayers of gratefulness to all the Lady Bugs everywhere

>Judith writes,
>
>>and besides I can't even take the guy a sandwich while he's working for
>>fear of having him have a mother reaction...it occurs to me that this
>>framing of the feminine as the great mother, the grand myth is subversive
>>AND keeps me in the double bind as a punishment for some offense that I am
>>doomed to commit no matter what I do...
>
>Hey, risk that sandwich I say!
>
>***
>
>This has been an interesting day and I report about it after meeting with
>Judith this evening knowing prior to our meet, that to some extent, the
>implication of my suggestion ("I feel men need feeling and valuation
>modelled for them, Judith." etc.) is that the feminine needs to embrace the
>double bind to prove its *beingness*. This deserved the corrective I
>tonight received.
>
>It was distilled in two moments of synchronocity after I got over how
>maddened Judith was and how inarticulate and resourceless I was...after
>starting right off and saying it was "simpler than she thought." Both feet
>do fit in mouth!
>
>Anyway, I listened, and tried to to qualify my framing and got some sense
>of where I couldn't go with, (yes, Nancy,) abstraction. But, then, sensing
>an opening to explain or lecture Judith on my prinicipal intellectual
>hangup, I started to say:
>
>(low growling voice,) "Well, I just cannot see how the new pattern forms
>and leaves the archetype behind" //
>
>*bug flies under my chin and lands on my shirt*
>
>(Judith starts laughing; reaches forward,)
>
>"Oh look, that's great..."
>
>(Judith's hand touches my shirt and draws back and for a moment a ladybug
>is perched on her finger.)
>
>***
>
>Later, I feel I've understood from the point of limitation I am unable to
>appreciate the *dance* (unless I'm willing to dance,) and making of it an
>abstraction is an absurdity.
>
>I note this, but start to (again!) qualify it. Judith raises her hand,
>
>"Do you hear what song is playing?"
>
>(I listen more carefully.) Judith laughs her delightful laugh.
>
>"Que sera sera sera..."
>
>***
>
>Little llamps and ladybugs...the new myth is dancing.
>
>HooN
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:27:48 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne,

I have been following your experience of Walter as List Owner working to
figure out what goes on for you because I am not having the same
response...this exchange helped me see what you mean by distancing, at
least I think I do...I sense a very different orientation between us which
seems to equate Walter, List Owner, parent, distance...my orientation makes
a different connection...I equate Walter, List Owner, Learner, observer and
when he speaks of his *role* I listen for what he is learning because my
beginning experience here was about learning here through an experience
which by its very objective at the least is an experiencial learning
environment, tho admittedly *very* tricky...I'm learning about list owning
listening to his perspective and I notice my relationship to him has
distance in it to the extent I am uninterested in the nuances of List
ownership and find I have no expectations of his role here...so my feelings
of distance have to do with what I find interesting to *me*...so I am doing
the distancing...

Good to hear you back...
In prayerfullness for your continued healing
Lovingly,
Judith




>At 08:59 AM 7/8/98 -0400,  Walter wrote:
>
>>      >My specific learning on all of this is:
>>      >Being in the role of "list owner" it has been easy for me to remain
>on that
>>      >level of psyberspace ... where this is a list, and the boundaries
>are in
>>      >the files and in the software and so on.  Vital stuff!  I am not
>joking and
>>      >as a list owner i *need* to think and learn about that level of
>psyberspace
>>      >... in fact my need has been great and still is ... on that level
>as well
>>      >as the levels either side of that  :-)  (I can see them!)
>
>Hi Walter,
>
>When you move into announcing that you are the listowner you lose
>me. On the one hand, you say you want to be one with us, but  then you
>periodically seem to need to reassert that you are not just one of us - that
>you have special (and parental) burdens and responsibilities that  are
>beyond our concerns. It is this kind of navel gazing which I find distancing
>and impersonalizing. Somehow whatever we do here seems to become about
>you, and the processes of whatever is being done here between all of us is
>somehow  scooped up into a basket where growth is cut off - like pulling up
>plants by the roots to see how they are growing.
>
>Julienne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:00:31 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
In-Reply-To:  <v01550149b1ca38a0f91d@[207.54.160.167]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi Judith,

At 09:27 AM 7/9/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>I have been following your experience of Walter as List Owner working to
>figure out what goes on for you because I am not having the same
> >response...this exchange helped me see what you mean by distancing, at
>least I think I do...I sense a very different orientation between us which
>seems to equate Walter, List Owner, parent, distance...my orientation makes
>a different connection...I equate Walter, List Owner, Learner, observer and
>when he speaks of his *role* I listen for what he is learning because my
>beginning experience here was about learning here through an experience
>which by its very objective at the least is an experiencial learning
>environment, tho admittedly *very* tricky...I'm learning about list owning
>listening to his perspective and I notice my relationship to him has
>distance in it to the extent I am uninterested in the nuances of List
>ownership and find I have no expectations of his role here...so my feelings
>of distance have to do with what I find interesting to *me*...so I am doing
>the distancing...

Well, there we are. :) Perhaps it's just like in a family - different people
have different experiences of the other members. So with this list. :)

I don'r quite know, from the above, what our differences are in
how we see Walter...

>Good to hear you back...
>In prayerfullness for your continued healing

Thank you. :) And the same to you.

I am actually doing quite beautifully at the moment. :)

Love,

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:33:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne,

>Hi Judith,
>
>At 09:27 AM 7/9/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Julienne,
>>
>>I have been following your experience of Walter as List Owner working to
>>figure out what goes on for you because I am not having the same
>> >response...this exchange helped me see what you mean by distancing, at
>>least I think I do...I sense a very different orientation between us which
>>seems to equate Walter, List Owner, parent, distance...my orientation makes
>>a different connection...I equate Walter, List Owner, Learner, observer and
>>when he speaks of his *role* I listen for what he is learning because my
>>beginning experience here was about learning here through an experience
>>which by its very objective at the least is an experiencial learning
>>environment, tho admittedly *very* tricky...I'm learning about list owning
>>listening to his perspective and I notice my relationship to him has
>>distance in it to the extent I am uninterested in the nuances of List
>>ownership and find I have no expectations of his role here...so my feelings
>>of distance have to do with what I find interesting to *me*...so I am doing
>>the distancing...
>
>Well, there we are. :) Perhaps it's just like in a family - different people
>have different experiences of the other members. So with this list. :)

Yes and for me that makes for richness
>
>I don'r quite know, from the above, what our differences are in
>how we see Walter...

:-) reminds me of a Pennsylvania Dutch saying:

I keep cutting it off and it's still too short...

>
>>Good to hear you back...
>>In prayerfullness for your continued healing
>
>Thank you. :) And the same to you.

I have a session tonight (full moon rising) with a new healer to me gifted
by my spiritual sister who is very concerned for me...I'm feeling well so
we'll see...
>
>I am actually doing quite beautifully at the moment. :)

Yes I know you are...grace is a beautiful gift from the universe
Blessings,
Judith
>
>Love,
>
>Julienne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 05:45:59 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998070808595121@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

I hope I can connect here with you, and if not am willing to work & play
away on any obstacles.   You mentioned earlier on that you liked to think
of us as a family and disagreed with me on that.  I also have been aware of
your comments about abstraction and I have found your attention to both
these things interesting.  I was quite pleased with my reflections and the
way I managed to get some insights on these two matters.  I have a sense of
being able to honour both your experience and comments and my own ...
though that may not be a sense we share   ;-)

You said family and I said ...

> >We are a family, a community, a club, a cult, a forum, a circle, email
> >addresses (where are you FRITZ?), a therapy group, an experiment, a
> >project, Psyber-L, a mailing list, a bunch of people on an expedition,
> >actors on a stage, an audience, people living their life all around the
> >world, Oz, Hades, paradise, in the realm of the soul, on the Argus ...
>
>       FRITZ.  A condition in which something doesn't work properly.....(Mfff???)
> >
> >One person's concretisation is another's abstraction.
>
>       Really?

I took that as being sarcastic, but perhaps it is not intended that way.
Did it sound like a lecture?  I thought the idea that what is abstract or
concrete is different for different people is an interesting idea, even if
somewhat abstract!

I am not sure what you mean by this:

>       FRITZ.  A condition in which something doesn't work properly.....(Mfff???)

Perhaps I should explain that FRITZ was a Psyber-Ler who held that we only
know email addresses here not people (or something like that).

~~~

> >Some months ago I spoke of the Seven Levels of Psyberspace ... it was half
> >serious and half spoof, jokingly making Psybernet sound like a cult with a
> >metaphysical doctrine ... but there is some truth in the notion of levels
> >I think, HooN has often lit a candle illuminating the doorway from one to
> >another.  If one person is speaking about emails, posts, servers,
> >subscription and so on and another is speaking about and *feeling* love,
>       >hate, and has images of people living life then there are about three
>       >levels in between and the gap can *feel* like a *deliberate* attack and a
>       >refusal to listen and be frustrating and painful!
>
>       I find the above fairly unclear.  Probably because I am having to take your
>       comments of 'some months ago' out of there original context.

I know my writing style is bad at times, I will re-state the essence:

| When looking at the same things in Psyber-L, one person might
| speak about emails, posts, servers, subscriptions and so on
| and another might speak about and *feel* love, hate, and have
| images of people living life.  The gap can then *feel* like a
| *deliberate* attack and a refusal to listen to each other and both
| can feel frustration and pain.


~~~

I said:
>      >Judge not another's level of abstraction ... the imaginal world is large
>       >enough for us all.

That sounds judgmental in its own right, I can see that, though I was
referring to my own tendency to judge as much as others.

Nancy:
>        Was I 'judging' someone's 'level' of abstraction?  Or merely giving it the
>        name abstraction.  If the former, you might admonish me with more
>        success in 3 months when I get off of Frand Jury duty, instead of now
>        when I am just practicing up my ESTJs to go one.  Though I doubt it.
>         Generally 'admonishments only hurt Llamp's feelings and make me mad
>         as we believe that they are 'Parent'.  And not very nice Parent, at that.

Hey, this trial must be almost upon you, so all the best with it, and, yes
good judgment is required at those moments.

This gets us to the core of  many of the themes ... and perhaps feelings
that have been brewing here for a while.  I don't intend to admonish or be
parental.  How much of that is in my style?  How much of it is in the
projection onto me because of my role of listowner?  As list owner my
intention is to be "adult" to continue with the TA language.  I know you
felt admonished by me on an earlier occasion as well ... perhaps we need to
re-visit that?  My experience of that occasion was that i was offering some
guidance, which might be somewhat parental.  Perhaps those who do not se a
family here do not see the depths to which we are like one ... in other
words I might be more parental than I think I am!

I am also aware that this is not unlike the unfinished discussion I am in
with Simon, who experienced me as lecturing him, so I can see I may need to
look at this more.

~~~

I thought this lie might have made it clear that i was looking at my own J
tendency:

>       >I withdraw and apologise for all the times I have done that.
>
>        I suppose you mean that you feel that on those occasions you now feel
>        that you committed some offence and you now wish to withdraw the
>        offensiveness?

Yes.

~~~

> >One thing that made me chuckle was that I have likened some of your posts,
> >Nancy,  to Jackson Pollack paintings, he of course was an abstractionist,
> >almost archetypically.  For people who do not operate with art at that
> >level of abstraction his work was an outrage, if I recall, they could not
> >access that work at all!  Accessing each other's abstractions of choice is
> >quite an art!
>
>       I should say that it is a 'choice' rather than and 'art'...or perhaps I wish to
>       emphasis that it is a choice whether to exercize ones 'art' in this direction.
>          It seems to me that you, Walter, are tending to imply here (and not for the
>          first time) here that I, Nancy, am somehow deficient in the ability to
>          abstract.  I doubt this.  In fact for some time some years ago, I worked
>          for a psychiatrist, for whom Engish was a second language, writing
>          abstract of professional journal articles.  Worked, I might add, to the mutual
>          satisfaction of both....until the day she threw one too many temper
>          tantrums.  If you have never seen a 75 year, tiny lady psychiatrist in her
>          pajamas jump up and down on her front lawn in rage, then you, Walter,
>          have missed a very memorable sight.

No, I am not suggesting you cant abstract ... I was abstracting!  <grin>
Speaking generally about the subject, including you, me and us all!   I
recall you speaking of accessability of some posts, and thought I was
tuning in with your experience (alas not quite so!).  I was also referring
to my differently abeled approach to some posts!  It is all part of the
gist of my whole abstract email that one of the reasons we talk past each
other is that we are on different levels, though one is not better or worse
than another.  I don't think we choose them particularly ... though I may
have given that impression ... I think it is part of our personality or
character (wonderful abstractions both.)

Let me have another go at expressing what i mean here ...

We are usually familiar and comfortable at one level or another ... for
example the legal rather than the moral.  That is just the way we are ...
we can choose to try to move from one level to another ... that may be
quite an art ... as it is in computer games for example ... or we may even
find it easy, but prefer the level we are on, and choose not to go to other
levels.


Your psychiatrist sounds like a character ... not unlike one I know here.


Nancy, all the best with the Jury!


Walter

PS on my spelling:  I was one of the first on the block with a computer ...
it was a liberation for me as I have suffered for years from problems, with
spelling.  No choice about it, I failed at school, missed out on jobs, all
because of a certain blindness to the sequence of letters.  You will know
what I mean when you see an email i have not spell checked.  I like
"creative spelling"  but have had a hard time in a world that could not
accept it at all.  I feel happy to have my prothesis and feel a little more
normal.



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:39:49 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.

On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 05:45:59 GMT, Walter Logeman  wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>I hope I can connect here with you, and if not am willing to work & play
>away on any obstacles.   You mentioned earlier on that you liked to think
>of us as a family and disagreed with me on that

  N: Perhaps this is a mere quitbble, but...It's not that 'I like' but more that
   Psyber-L 'freels like' a family or at the very least a community.  As Poppa used
   to say, we do not chose our families (guess he wasn't Buddhist) but have them
    thrust upon us.  Much the same is true here.  I did not individually select those
    here.  Yet as soul speaks to soul in the space that 'Water' build, they feel like
    family.  In family soul slips though and speaks to soul, abet sometimes in pretty
   tormented form.

.  I also have been aware of
>your comments about abstraction and I have found your attention to both
>these things interesting.  I was quite pleased with my reflections and the
>way I managed to get some insights on these two matters.  I have a sense of
>being able to honour both your experience and comments and my own ...
>though that may not be a sense we share   ;-)

  N: My perceptions of the whats and whys of abstractions here continue to
   evolve.
>
>You said family and I said ...
>
>> >We are a family, a community, a club, a cult, a forum, a circle, email
>> >addresses (where are you FRITZ?), a therapy group, an experiment, a
>> >project, Psyber-L, a mailing list, a bunch of people on an expedition,
>> >actors on a stage, an audience, people living their life all around the
>> >world, Oz, Hades, paradise, in the realm of the soul, on the Argus ...
>>
>>       FRITZ.  A condition in which something doesn't work properly.....(Mfff???)
>> >
>> >One person's concretisation is another's abstraction.
>>
>>       Really?
>
>I took that as being sarcastic, but perhaps it is not intended that way.
>Did it sound like a lecture?  I thought the idea that what is abstract or
>concrete is different for different people is an interesting idea, even if
>somewhat abstract!

  N: Hey,  I consider 'sarcasm' to be really Pretty uncouth.  And hope never
  ever to resort to it.  This is far easier now that I am more able to flat out say,
  'Now, I just really don't agree with what you say'.  'Ironic' is as far over as I
  ever care to go.
     In the case of above, I think I just really don't quite grok your statement and
  meant 'is that really so?  Is one person's concretization another's abstraction'?
  Concretization often drives me to 'distraction'  especially when it is demanded
  of me in question form.
>
>I am not sure what you mean by this:
>
>>       FRITZ.  A condition in which something doesn't work properly.....(Mfff???)

   N: Oh, dear...I guess I was trying to be funny.  I'd run across a Fritz in 'search'
   (a Dr. was it?)  I looked the name up in Bookshelf and sure enough it was a
   word, defined as above. ( I think SF writer Fritz Leiber, wife 'Fritzie' (urrr...talk
   about being submerged in husband) and son were still lingering)
       I have trouble connecting with what your Fritz said.  Perhaps that is why
   he left, if he could grok people here only as addresses.  I'd leave too.
>
>Perhaps I should explain that FRITZ was a Psyber-Ler who held that we only
>know email addresses here not people (or something like that).
>
       I have trouble connecting with what your Fritz said.  Perhaps that is why
   he left, if he could grok people here only as addresses.  I'd leave too.
       Actually, I guess that may be part of my difficulty with people retreating in
   abstactions.  They seem to disappear as people.  If I want abstractions I have
   one or two math books here at home  I can read.  I am here on Psyber-L
   for the people.  Still pouring myself (and maybe missing the container) into
   Charles position...with a houseful of clamoring young beinging...I can see why
   he might need to step out and take his 'abstractor' for a run now and again.
>~~~
>
>> >Some months ago I spoke of the Seven Levels of Psyberspace ... it was half
>> >serious and half spoof, jokingly making Psybernet sound like a cult with a
>> >metaphysical doctrine ... but there is some truth in the notion of levels
>> >I think, HooN has often lit a candle illuminating the doorway from one to
>> >another.  If one person is speaking about emails, posts, servers,
>> >subscription and so on and another is speaking about and *feeling* love,
>>       >hate, and has images of people living life then there are about three
>>       >levels in between and the gap can *feel* like a *deliberate* attack and a
>>       >refusal to listen and be frustrating and painful!
>>
>>       I find the above fairly unclear.  Probably because I am having to take your
>>       comments of 'some months ago' out of there original context.
>
>I know my writing style is bad at times, I will re-state the essence:

    Hmmm...'writing styles', misspellings, typos etc.  don't seem to me to be 'good'
    or 'bad'.  It seems to me that they simply 'are' (at least once they are sweep
    out of this cute little box onto the List)  Like your attitude toward 'silence', I
    feel I learn as much about each by what is misspoke or not said as what is.
    Lacunas are most informative.
>
>| When looking at the same things in Psyber-L, one person might
>| speak about emails, posts, servers, subscriptions and so on
>| and another might speak about and *feel* love, hate, and have
>| images of people living life.  The gap can then *feel* like a
>| *deliberate* attack and a refusal to listen to each other and both
>| can feel frustration and pain.

  N: Why does that phrasing sound so familiar?  Are you sure you didn't say that
   exact same thing inanother post?  There is an abstracted quality in this post
   of yours, Walter.   Hmmm...I'm suspecting that some of it is in both of us.
      Our conversations here are taking me into a rather painful place ...
  concerning ...I guess the feminines relationship to patriarchy...perhaps you
   and Julienne need to talk....if she might be willing to 'go there'...and you
   could suspend annoyance and/or being bluff and hearty....hmmm...I wonder
   if either of you will find these words of mine 'fitting'.
>
>~~~
>
>I said:
>>      >Judge not another's level of abstraction ... the imaginal world is large
>>       >enough for us all.
>
>That sounds judgmental in its own right, I can see that, though I was
>referring to my own tendency to judge as much as others.
>
>Nancy:
>>        Was I 'judging' someone's 'level' of abstraction?  Or merely giving it the
>>        name abstraction.  If the former, you might admonish me with more
>>        success in 3 months when I get off of Frand Jury duty, instead of now
>>        when I am just practicing up my ESTJs to go one.  Though I doubt it.
>>         Generally 'admonishments only hurt Llamp's feelings and make me mad
>>         as we believe that they are 'Parent'.  And not very nice Parent, at that.
>
>Hey, this trial must be almost upon you, so all the best with it, and, yes
>good judgment is required at those moments.

   N: I don't know how it is in New Zealand, but here I learn that Grand Jury
   service  consists of two duties.  One is to determine if the evidence is sufficient
   for cases to go to trial.  The other is to tour public agencies and to recommend
   what changes should be made.  Both seem to me to call for all functions to
   be up and operational.  Quite a challenge.
>
>This gets us to the core of  many of the themes ... and perhaps feelings
>that have been brewing here for a while.  I don't intend to admonish or be
>parental.  How much of that is in my style?

    N:  I think 'style' is a reflection of the 'styalist"  like all things we do.  It may
    be the doing of various complexes who must get tired of being always inside
    and have now and again to slip out and be adoing.

 How much of it is in the
>projection onto me because of my role of listowner?

   N: How much by whom?  By meem, very little indeed, I would say.

  As list owner my
>intention is to be "adult" to continue with the TA language.  I know you
>felt admonished by me on an earlier occasion as well ... perhaps we need to
>re-visit that?  My experience of that occasion was that i was offering some
>guidance, which might be somewhat parental.  Perhaps those who do not se a
>family here do not see the depths to which we are like one ... in other
>words I might be more parental than I think I am!

   N:  Ummm...hmmm...gee...haw....ok...I had some reflections about The
   Incident of my preciptant arrival here when Charles evoked the metaphor of
   'host' in reference to your role in GBG (which meta I liked, btw, charles)  To
   me, arriving late at the party,  a little sweaty from haste, it was as if the host
   had said, 'excuse me, Madam, but you forgot to wipe your feet'.  If I hadn't
   seen Robert, Simon and Judity smiling at me a little from across the room, I'd
   have tucked my bottle of wine under my arm and hailed the nearest taxi home.
     There's probably nothing wrong with a little 'parent' now and again.  But I
   must speak similarly to you as I would  to Charles (Charles, did I ask for an
   explanation of Trees?)  Walter, did I ask for guidance?  Was it gracious
   hostiliness on your part to offer what I did not ask?  I hope this doesn't sound
   too harsh.  I spent so many years thrusting guidance, and more especially
   understanding of ME in my family's face when it wasn't requested.  What
   a waste.  What a distortion of good parenting.  Well, enuf...Like Hoon I'm
   fixing to fit both feet...
>
>I am also aware that this is not unlike the unfinished discussion I am in
>with Simon, who experienced me as lecturing him, so I can see I may need to
>look at this more.

    Yes.  I'm hoping that after his trip and hiatus, Simon will be back.  I sure do
  miss him.
>
>~~~
>
>I thought this lie might have made it clear that i was looking at my own J
>tendency:

   N: I must have missed something.  What lie was that, Walter?  Why would
   you need to lie to any of us?
>
>>       >I withdraw and apologise for all the times I have done that.
>>
>>        I suppose you mean that you feel that on those occasions you now feel
>>        that you committed some offence and you now wish to withdraw the
>>        offensiveness?
>
>Yes.

  Ok.  I wasn't here so don't quite know what that's all about, but thankfully
   have found this to be a quite forgiving group.
>
>~~~
>
>> >One thing that made me chuckle was that I have likened some of your posts,
>> >Nancy,  to Jackson Pollack paintings, he of course was an abstractionist,
>> >almost archetypically.  For people who do not operate with art at that
>> >level of abstraction his work was an outrage, if I recall, they could not
>> >access that work at all!  Accessing each other's abstractions of choice is
>> >quite an art!
>>
>>       I should say that it is a 'choice' rather than and 'art'...or perhaps I wish to
>>       emphasis that it is a choice whether to exercize ones 'art' in this direction.
>>          It seems to me that you, Walter, are tending to imply here (and not for the
>>          first time) here that I, Nancy, am somehow deficient in the ability to
>>          abstract.  I doubt this.  In fact for some time some years ago, I worked
>>          for a psychiatrist, for whom Engish was a second language, writing
>>          abstract of professional journal articles.  Worked, I might add, to the mutual
>>          satisfaction of both....until the day she threw one too many temper
>>          tantrums.  If you have never seen a 75 year, tiny lady psychiatrist in her
>>          pajamas jump up and down on her front lawn in rage, then you, Walter,
>>          have missed a very memorable sight.
>
>No, I am not suggesting you cant abstract ... I was abstracting!  <grin>
>Speaking generally about the subject, including you, me and us all!   I
>recall you speaking of accessability of some posts, and thought I was
>tuning in with your experience (alas not quite so!).  I was also referring
>to my differently abeled approach to some posts!  It is all part of the
>gist of my whole abstract email that one of the reasons we talk past each
>other is that we are on different levels, though one is not better or worse
>than another.  I don't think we choose them particularly ... though I may
>have given that impression ... I think it is part of our personality or
>character (wonderful abstractions both.)

  N:  I beg to differ.  Ruff!   (Bear with me)  I think we do 'chose' though not
  always conciously.  However I have a macular pucker at the back of my
  right eye.  this makes everything presenting to that side larger and fuzzier than
  the other.  Hence when the person goes away, leaving only the abstaction,
  I begin to skim.  Then when I find that they were lurking just about the corner
  to see what I would make of there abs and are put out that I didn't give the
  old candy wrapper more deferencial treatment...Well then I tend to get a bit
  ummm...tart.
>
>Let me have another go at expressing what i mean here ...
>
>We are usually familiar and comfortable at one level or another ... for
>example the legal rather than the moral.  That is just the way we are ...
>we can choose to try to move from one level to another ... that may be
>quite an art ... as it is in computer games for example ... or we may even
>find it easy, but prefer the level we are on, and choose not to go to other
>levels.

  N: I'm finding I want to quibble again.  This time with the word 'moral'.  Hmm..
  Guess I'll put it in the basket labeled 'For later consideration'.  And of course,
  Walter, if you were less 'abel' we wouldn't be gathered here together, family
  or not.>
>
>Your psychiatrist sounds like a character ... not unlike one I know here.

   N:  Ummm...my suggestion to you is that you don't try to work closely on
   anything with 'yours'.>
>
>Nancy, all the best with the Jury!

  N: I expect I'll need all the luck I can get...and/or good wishes.>
>
>Walter
>
>PS on my spelling:  I was one of the first on the block with a computer ...
>it was a liberation for me as I have suffered for years from problems, with
>spelling.  No choice about it, I failed at school, missed out on jobs, all
>because of a certain blindness to the sequence of letters.  You will know
>what I mean when you see an email i have not spell checked.  I like
>"creative spelling"  but have had a hard time in a world that could not
>accept it at all.  I feel happy to have my prothesis and feel a little more
>normal.

  N: With my system I haven't found a way to activate spell check when in
  post mode.  So I'm on my own with only Book Shelf.  BS unfortunately requires
  more proximity (let alone Patience) than I can sometimes muster.
    I've never know an Intuitive that was a good speller.

   Nancy
   Wondering how much her lack of 'cutting' will contribute to the List Digest
    exceeding 1500 lines, at which point Juno groans and soon after rejects.
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:41:52 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Nancy, Walter,

I've snipped lest 1500 be exceeded...I have a thot which has an
embeddedimplied question...

For me when something is feltthotsensed and then verbalized it becomes a
level of abstraction by default...I had an ongoing argument which was
unresolvable with my mentor in my PhD program...I kept speaking about
vibration and energy and this would put him in his Philosophical
Romanticism bind with science and he would fire back *in the beginning was
the word*...there was no way I could get him to sense what was on the other
side of the *word*...went to an art show last night for an Italian artist
Binini and there hanging on the wall were concretations of the place where
I go in the unseen where I *know* where the knowing resides...it brought me
to deep tears...the recognition of this placespace...knowing that after 50
odd years is has not been a figment of my imagination...there is no way I
can describe his work...I think he has a web site...it is about feeling the
energyvibration eminating from his work...it takes me to my
placespace...words would be an abstraction she says abstractly

I keep trying to remember the scientist who did the experiment with sound
where he put sand on a metal plate and played music...the sand would move
into geometric shapes on the plate...different shapes from different
music...

Anyway all this brings me back to the inadequacy of mere words here on a
mail list...unless one senses into non linearity and vibration

Judith in her placespace trance dance

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 00:01:17 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
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Nancy,

> >You mentioned earlier on that you liked to think
> >of us as a family
>
>   N: Perhaps this is a mere quitbble, but...It's not that 'I like' but more that
>    Psyber-L 'freels like' a family or at the very least a community.  As Poppa used
>    to say, we do not chose our families (guess he wasn't Buddhist) but have them
>     thrust upon us.  Much the same is true here.  I did not individually select those
>     here.  Yet as soul speaks to soul in the space that 'Water' build, they feel like
>     family.  In family soul slips though and speaks to soul, abet sometimes in pretty
>    tormented form.

No mere quibble as far as I am concerned, I am glad you clarified my
misread.

>   N: My perceptions of the whats and whys of abstractions here continue to
>    evolve.

Mine too ... and the way how we are or are not a family or community is
right on my evolutionary edge.  It feels like a family and a community to
me too.  Sometimes it feels all too much like my own family dynamics repeat
here and at this point is is more that my old community dynamics are
repeating.  I think I have unfinished business ... or perhaps scars from
both family and groups / communities and these experiences influence me in
how i see this splace.  Can't be helped can it?   To separate out the
projection from the "reality" is almost impossible without this sort of
dialogue.  It could be a very healing thing to do.   Mind you I have really
tried to set it up "build" it so that it emphatically does not repeat have
the flaws of my family community ... yet i cant escape ...

~~~

>   N: Hey,  I consider 'sarcasm' to be really Pretty uncouth.  And hope never
>   ever to resort to it.  This is far easier now that I am more able to flat out say,
>   'Now, I just really don't agree with what you say'.  'Ironic' is as far over as I
>   ever care to go.

I am pleased to hear this and glad I checked!  Probably a good example
where I project my old stuff onto you.

>      In the case of above, I think I just really don't quite grok your statement and
>   meant 'is that really so?  Is one person's concretization another's abstraction'?
>   Concretization often drives me to 'distraction'  especially when it is demanded
>   of me in question form.

"Is one person's concretization another's abstraction?"

I would not say that it is "really" so <grin>.  I had the sense that I was
summing up an insight about what has been happening here .... and one that
I could extrapolate from into other situations as well.  The example of
whether we are a  "family" and "list of email addresses" is as good an
example as any, which is the more concrete and which is the more abstract?


> >I am not sure what you mean by this:
> >
> >>       FRITZ.  A condition in which something doesn't work properly.....(Mfff???)
>
>    N: Oh, dear...I guess I was trying to be funny.  I'd run across a Fritz in 'search'
>    (a Dr. was it?)  I looked the name up in Bookshelf and sure enough it was a
>    word, defined as above. ( I think SF writer Fritz Leiber, wife 'Fritzie' (urrr...talk
>    about being submerged in husband) and son were still lingering)
>        I have trouble connecting with what your Fritz said.  Perhaps that is why
>    he left, if he could grok people here only as addresses.  I'd leave too.

Ah.  I get it now ... thanks!

He might still be here or come back ... that is his way.  I don't know
about Fritz, and what he would say.

I think of us as people too.  I can also entertain the idea of us as
avatars, with the identities in cyberspace sent here from the person.
Perhaps some people have many identities each attached to an email address.
We are all multiples in some way etc.  I like to entertain that at least
... the people might then be more of an abstraction than the avatar (the
entity we know and love here!)
~~~

> >I know my writing style is bad at times, I will re-state the essence:
>
>     Hmmm...'writing styles', misspellings, typos etc.  don't seem to me to be 'good'
>     or 'bad'.  It seems to me that they simply 'are' (at least once they are sweep
>     out of this cute little box onto the List)  Like your attitude toward 'silence', I
>     feel I learn as much about each by what is misspoke or not said as what is.
>     Lacunas are most informative.

Thanks for that.  I grasp it with silence ... but have been far too often
admonished for my writing to grasp it there ... so that really helps.

~~~

>       Our conversations here are taking me into a rather painful place ...
>   concerning ...I guess the feminines relationship to patriarchy...perhaps you
>    and Julienne need to talk....if she might be willing to 'go there'...and you
>    could suspend annoyance and/or being bluff and hearty....hmmm...I wonder
>    if either of you will find these words of mine 'fitting'.

I understand that this conversation does this and I think we have hit the
gender aspect of this.  It is something like the painful conversations
between my mother and father.  In the end she would just go quiet and agree
in a passive way, and go crazy later.  Are we repeating that here!  Yes and
now <damn I'll leave that typo!>  I don't want to do that here.  A painful
place in that it brings up the child in me.

The good thing is that we have a bit more consciousness ... or is that just
more abstraction?

I am not sure where Julienne and I could go in this ... I will explore it
further.

My hunch is that we have landed again in the Psyche and Eros story ...
though i don't know where ...

Got to go ... will send this now though there is much more in your email I
would like to reply to but  which I have removed to save space.



Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:11:00 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
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Judith tweaks the field,

>I keep trying to remember the scientist who did the experiment with sound
>where he put sand on a metal plate and played music...the sand would move
>into geometric shapes on the plate...different shapes from different
>music...

(Ernst Chladni; 'nodal figuration' of sand on a glass plate excited by
sound vibrations.)

***


Basho:

        The ancient pond.
     A frog jumps in -
        The sound of the water.



John Hitchcock:

"...we must as more complex organisms, see that as large as we are, we may
be moved, may put ourselves at the disposal of even more subtle influences
so that we may consciously participate in the unfolding of the Patterning."



Prigogine:

"At equilibrium, molecules behave as essentially independent entities; they
ignore each other. [No exchange takes place.] We would like to call them
"hypnons," "sleepwalkers." Though each of them may be as complex as we
like, they ignore one another. However, nonequilibrium wakes them up and
introduces a coherence quite foreign to equilibrium."



Jean Charon:

" Therefore, we clearly see the necessity of striving to increase our own
level of negative entropy in the duration of each existance, since the
fundamental way to increase consciousness, at the level of the entire
universe as at the level of the "I" of the individual electron, is to make
the negative entropy of the spiritual electron space constantly increase.

Thus, we progressively see appearing the deep meaning of the processes of
Knowledge, Love, Reflection, and Action. If we feel that life is "made" to
express as much as we can of these four operations, this is because they
represent the essential axis around which the universe moves toward psychic
evolution: the axis of increasing negative entropy."

***

nonequilibrium, coherence, unfolding...

doing the cosmic dants!

***

bright blessings,

HooN


ps - also: *sympathy*

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 04:03:25 GMT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
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> "At equilibrium, molecules behave as essentially independent entities; they
> ignore each other. [No exchange takes place.] We would like to call them
> "hypnons," "sleepwalkers." Though each of them may be as complex as we
> like, they ignore one another. However, nonequilibrium wakes them up and
> introduces a coherence quite foreign to equilibrium."

Like Cupid's arrow.



Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 05:16:43 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
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Nancy,

I am continuing the discussion in response to ...

  Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
  Sat, 11 Jul 1998 09:39:49 -0400

>   There is an abstracted quality in this post
>    of yours, Walter.   Hmmm...I'm suspecting that some of it is in both of us.
>       Our conversations here are taking me into a rather painful place ...
>   concerning ...I guess the feminines relationship to patriarchy...

Looking back on my last post, I can see that I edged into the abstract
again ... more into the real mof entertaining ideas and not people ...

>    perhaps you
>    and Julienne need to talk....if she might be willing to 'go there'...and you
>    could suspend annoyance and/or being bluff and hearty....hmmm...I wonder
>    if either of you will find these words of mine 'fitting'.

I will respond to her recent post to me on the list ...

~~~

> >Nancy:
> >>        Was I 'judging' someone's 'level' of abstraction?  Or merely giving it the
> >>        name abstraction.  If the former, you might admonish me with more
> >>        success in 3 months when I get off of Frand Jury duty, instead of now
> >>        when I am just practicing up my ESTJs to go one.  Though I doubt it.
> >>         Generally 'admonishments only hurt Llamp's feelings and make me mad
> >>         as we believe that they are 'Parent'.  And not very nice Parent, at that.

I recall you calling it an abstraction virus ... and linking it to the men.
I am not admonishing you for that ... I have enjoyed the notion even as I
need to deal witth the disturbance it makes ... all just fine really.  I am
not sure if it is judmental or not ...

I think there is a gender question in there.  I know that being a man or a
woman is not the deciding factor about the qualities we express ... but i
think that there is a "masculine / feminine" feel to most of the posts that
ties in with the sex of the writers ... you and me typify that here ... I
can't seem to help it!  So "virus" fits quite well!

Can this masc. / fem. feel of posts ... like the way we write, like the ebb
and flow of the discussions ... be neither 'good nor 'bad', but simply be
the way they are? (to put it the way you did.)  Perhaps they can...

However it also brings up painful feelings in you about the patriachy, and
that is the trouble with anything that has a male or masculine feel to it
... we don't live in a world that is gender neutral ... the masculine
forces are in power ... they abuse the power and give masculinity a bad
name ... deservedly!   As a man I want to be able to listen to such pain
without taking it personally ... unless I have abused power myself of
course.


~~~

>     N:  I think 'style' is a reflection of the 'styalist"  like all things we do.  It may
>     be the doing of various complexes who must get tired of being always inside
>     and have now and again to slip out and be adoing.

Makes sense.

>  How much of it is in the
> >projection onto me because of my role of listowner?
>
>    N: How much by whom?  By meem, very little indeed, I would say.

Ok.

>   As list owner my
> >intention is to be "adult" to continue with the TA language.  I know you
> >felt admonished by me on an earlier occasion as well ... perhaps we need to
> >re-visit that?  My experience of that occasion was that i was offering some
> >guidance, which might be somewhat parental.  Perhaps those who do not se a
> >family here do not see the depths to which we are like one ... in other
> >words I might be more parental than I think I am!
>
>    N:  Ummm...hmmm...gee...haw....ok...I had some reflections about The
>    Incident of my preciptant arrival here when Charles evoked the metaphor of
>    'host' in reference to your role in GBG (which meta I liked, btw, charles)  To
>    me, arriving late at the party,  a little sweaty from haste, it was as if the host
>    had said, 'excuse me, Madam, but you forgot to wipe your feet'.  If I hadn't
>    seen Robert, Simon and Judity smiling at me a little from across the room, I'd
>    have tucked my bottle of wine under my arm and hailed the nearest taxi home.
>      There's probably nothing wrong with a little 'parent' now and again.  But I
>    must speak similarly to you as I would  to Charles (Charles, did I ask for an
>    explanation of Trees?)  Walter, did I ask for guidance?  Was it gracious
>    hostiliness on your part to offer what I did not ask?  I hope this doesn't sound
>    too harsh.  I spent so many years thrusting guidance, and more especially
>    understanding of ME in my family's face when it wasn't requested.  What
>    a waste.  What a distortion of good parenting.  Well, enuf...Like Hoon I'm
>    fixing to fit both feet...

No, you did not ask for guidance.  I recall welcoming you and also
mentioning that you quoted  a Psyber-L digest.  Perhaps you knew that ...
perhaps not.  I thought it wise to mention it so you knew.  I thought I did
it reasonably graciously on that occasion.  I am 'host' to all the
subscribers and posts with long trailing quotes can cost some people money
to download and disk space to store.  How would you have liked me to attend
to that situation?  I would like to know ... as the situation could easily
come up again, with other people.


~~~

> >I thought this lie might have made it clear that i was looking at my own J
> >tendency:
>
>    N: I must have missed something.  What lie was that, Walter?  Why would
>    you need to lie to any of us?

Typo for line, refering to this one:

> >>       >I withdraw and apologise for all the times I have done that.
> >>
> >>        I suppose you mean that you feel that on those occasions you now feel
> >>        that you committed some offence and you now wish to withdraw the
> >>        offensiveness?
> >
> >Yes.
>
>   Ok.  I wasn't here so don't quite know what that's all about, but thankfully
>    have found this to be a quite forgiving group.

Oh, I think my jugment of others, including you, has been embedded in my
posts!  It is not a serious crime I know, but I am learning something here
about "levels" of dialogue that i have not grasped before.



All for now,


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 02:10:30 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
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At 12:01 AM 7/12/98 +0000, Walter wrote:

>>       Our conversations here are taking me into a rather painful place ...
>>   concerning ...I guess the feminines relationship to
patriarchy...perhaps you
>>    and Julienne need to talk....if she might be willing to 'go
there'...and you
>>    could suspend annoyance and/or being bluff and hearty....hmmm...I wonder
>>    if either of you will find these words of mine 'fitting'.
>
>I understand that this conversation does this and I think we have hit the
>gender aspect of this.  It is something like the painful conversations
>between my mother and father.  In the end she would just go quiet and agree
>in a passive way, and go crazy later.  Are we repeating that here!  Yes and
>now <damn I'll leave that typo!>  I don't want to do that here.  A painful
>place in that it brings up the child in me.

Walter, what did your father do which lead to your mother just going quiet?

And was your mother's expression of repressed stuff seen as "crazy"?
Why not as her finally going sane? This is really pretty stereotypical,
isn't it?
Men's expression of feeling is usually seen as just that, no matter how
they rage and bellow or whatever form it takes, while similar outbursts
from women are seen as crazy or hysterical.

Have you considered your child might be crazy? Synchronistically,
I posted a lecture to CHA*OS today on "The Mad Child, or Why History
is Psycho." All about the mad child in each of us.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 09:37:44 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
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Thanks for Ernst Hoon...

>Judith tweaks the field,
>
>>I keep trying to remember the scientist who did the experiment with sound
>>where he put sand on a metal plate and played music...the sand would move
>>into geometric shapes on the plate...different shapes from different
>>music...
>
>(Ernst Chladni; 'nodal figuration' of sand on a glass plate excited by
>sound vibrations.)
>
>***
>
>
>Basho:
>
>        The ancient pond.
>     A frog jumps in -
>        The sound of the water.
>
>
>
>John Hitchcock:
>
>"...we must as more complex organisms, see that as large as we are, we may
>be moved, may put ourselves at the disposal of even more subtle influences
>so that we may consciously participate in the unfolding of the Patterning."

Seems the Lady Bug knows this intinctively...certainly *knew* how to show
up and participate...Lady Bug and the Zen Slap...good title for a story

Judith off to costumes to get a Lady Bug outfit
>
>
>
>Prigogine:
>
>"At equilibrium, molecules behave as essentially independent entities; they
>ignore each other. [No exchange takes place.] We would like to call them
>"hypnons," "sleepwalkers." Though each of them may be as complex as we
>like, they ignore one another. However, nonequilibrium wakes them up and
>introduces a coherence quite foreign to equilibrium."
>
>
>
>Jean Charon:
>
>" Therefore, we clearly see the necessity of striving to increase our own
>level of negative entropy in the duration of each existance, since the
>fundamental way to increase consciousness, at the level of the entire
>universe as at the level of the "I" of the individual electron, is to make
>the negative entropy of the spiritual electron space constantly increase.
>
>Thus, we progressively see appearing the deep meaning of the processes of
>Knowledge, Love, Reflection, and Action. If we feel that life is "made" to
>express as much as we can of these four operations, this is because they
>represent the essential axis around which the universe moves toward psychic
>evolution: the axis of increasing negative entropy."
>
>***
>
>nonequilibrium, coherence, unfolding...
>
>doing the cosmic dants!

>***
>
>bright blessings,
>
>HooN
>
>
>ps - also: *sympathy*
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 14:24:08 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
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Julienne,

> Walter, what did your father do which lead to your mother just going quiet?

Always knowing the "answers", being "logical and right".  Operating on a
different level, and utterly blind to the underlying answers & the other
logic.  He was a good man in most ways ... not malicious ... unconscious
and scared, and doing what the doctors told him and so on.

> And was your mother's expression of repressed stuff seen as "crazy"?
> Why not as her finally going sane? This is really pretty stereotypical,
> isn't it?

It was more coping as best she could by withdrawal or hyperactivity ...
difficult for me as a child to be around, and difficult for anyone to see
as a form of sanity, which it was in some ways.  This led to medication,
ect and hospitals etc.  Once that system fully got her it was hard, for the
child, to see my mother at all ... emotionally or as a real person.  Crazy
is the wrong word ... but I lost her and had only my father as a stable
adult.  It is quite possible that my mother had the seed of many of these
problems long before she met my father.

> Men's expression of feeling is usually seen as just that, no matter how
> they rage and bellow or whatever form it takes, while similar outbursts
> from women are seen as crazy or hysterical.

Yes.  He did not do the bellowing stuff ... might have helped my mother if
he had, in the sense of showing his feelings ... I am not thinking
violence.

> Have you considered your child might be crazy? Synchronistically,
> I posted a lecture to CHA*OS today on "The Mad Child, or Why History
> is Psycho." All about the mad child in each of us.

I think of the child as damaged and coping but not crazy ... tried to help
my mother ... and was able to tune into her better than my father, not that
it did anyone any good, least of all me.  (Though it led to a career! )

How this applies here is that I find it difficult to be around gender
conflict.  There are many other ways as well ... and there are quite a few
that i have had difficulty with in the past ... mainly a fear of
abandonment etc.  I now have a sense of the child (at all the different
ages) in me being well cared for by new internal parental & nurturing
roles.  I have had many catharsis, of abreaction and integration related to
both my father and mother, and have reached a point of acceptance ... by
and large.

Perhaps there is a Mad Child in there somewhere Julienne ... it would not
surprise me ... what do you mean exactly?

This story has poured out fairly easily, and I have told it here before.
It is also had a lot of attention from me over the years ... yet, telling
it brings back painful memories and images of many difficulties I had in my
family.  I am not sure why I post it up, I feel reluctance ... I think it
may help ... In ways i don't yet know ...


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:28:46 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.

On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:41:52 -0400, Judith Buerkel  wrote:

>Nancy, Walter,
>
>I've snipped lest 1500 be exceeded..

  One good turn deserves another, Jud.  Below you see 4 'new form' haiku...
yours.  I'd suggest you send them to:

  Robert Spies
  Modern Haiku
  P.O. Box 1752
  Madison, WI 53701

  He will send you one cristp $1 for each accepted.  With which you Could buy
Hoom one glass of red, red wine.

  The form is:

Judith Buerkel                                        First North American Serial Rights only
address

  One to each half sheet, with a SASE



 embeddedimplied

 felthoughtsensed

 energyvibration

 placespacentrancedance

  Join the minimalist dance (a favorite with Ladybugs)

Love, Nancy
______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:43:28 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.

On Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:11:00 -0500,

Hoon quotes one translation of:
>
>Basho:
>
>        The ancient pond.
>     A frog jumps in -
>        The sound of the water.

  This is surely the most famous haiku translates into English.  The original
Japanese form has spawned a thousand variations.  Personally I like the last
line simply:

   "PLUNK!"

  And then Hoon quotes:

>John Hitchcock:
>
>"... see that as large as we are, we may
>be moved, may put ourselves at the disposal of even more subtle influences
>so that we may consciously participate in the unfolding of the Patterning."

N:  There is an ant named : John Hancock?

  Hoon, in an abstract mood quotes two:
>
>Prigogine:
>
>"At equilibrium, molecules behave as essentially independent entities; they
>ignore each other. [No exchange takes place.] We would like to call them
>"hypnons," "sleepwalkers." Though each of them may be as complex as we
>like, they ignore one another. However, nonequilibrium wakes them up and
>introduces a coherence quite foreign to equilibrium."
>
>


>Jean Charon:
>
>" Therefore, we clearly see the necessity of striving to increase our own
>level of negative entropy in the duration of each existance, since the
>fundamental way to increase consciousness, at the level of the entire
>universe as at the level of the "I" of the individual electron, is to make
>the negative entropy of the spiritual electron space constantly increase.
>
>Thus, we progressively see appearing the deep meaning of the processes of
>Knowledge, Love, Reflection, and Action. If we feel that life is "made" to
>express as much as we can of these four operations, this is because they
>represent the essential axis around which the universe moves toward psychic
>evolution: the axis of increasing negative entropy."
>
  Nancy
  Doing a WHOOPS!
_________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:53:53 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Just a forward...of a few thoughts others out on another list...made
me think of us disturbng each other's equilibrium so beautifully! :)
Hugs...x0x0x0x0x0 J
************************************8

>Prigogine:
>
>"At equilibrium, molecules behave as essentially independent entities; they
>ignore each other. [No exchange takes place.] We would like to call them
>"hypnons," "sleepwalkers." Though each of them may be as complex as we
>like, they ignore one another. However, nonequilibrium wakes them up and
>introduces a coherence quite foreign to equilibrium."

>Jean Charon:
>
>" Therefore, we clearly see the necessity of striving to increase our own
>level of negative entropy in the duration of each existance, since the
>fundamental way to increase consciousness, at the level of the entire
>universe as at the level of the "I" of the individual electron, is to make
>the negative entropy of the spiritual electron space constantly increase.
>
>Thus, we progressively see appearing the deep meaning of the processes of
>Knowledge, Love, Reflection, and Action. If we feel that life is "made" to
>express as much as we can of these four operations, this is because they
>represent the essential axis around which the universe moves toward psychic
>evolution: the axis of increasing negative entropy."
>
  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:28:57 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer

On Sun, 3 May 1998 02:03:35 GMT, Walter Logeman  wrote:

>Nancy,

N: Here I am, brand new and uncertain.  Is this Walter person being quoted by
someone?  Who?  Is he new?  No.  or...those are my words...what are those
little > thingies.  Gosh I feel so young, uncertain and scared.
>
>>Hello everyone.  I'm new.
>
>Welcome and good on you for jumping right in.

N: Ah, now I see. HE IS THE JUDGE.  He says the I am being GOOD.  But I
don't want to be liked because I'm good.  I don't have to be GOOD to be liked.
That means that from this day forward I must meet his standards.  How very
tyranical of him.  Surely this must be an awful place.  A horrid dictatorship...but
it has been my experience that my reactions are not that far off.  If I feel this
way, so must others.  I wait about quiet and invisible and see if this isn't so here.
>
>> Sun and Moon both shine on the one lucky enough to have
>> found a real-time opponent engaged and brave enough to stay the field.
>
>This is pertinent to many threads here ... is there a time to
>leave, withdraw?  When is enough enough.  When is the conflict
>over, is there honour in retreat ... I recall giving up on my
>(first <g>) marriage at a moment when someone asked:  Just how
>much pain are you willing to feel?  I knew I'd had enough.

N: This terrible JUDGE person is implying that my father, so irritable and
impatiently above everything which was not deference from my mother...he is
implying that He was right in this.  That he, sought by the world and glorified,
 was the 'long suffering' one.  How utterly egomanically male a twist.  He is
implying that abusive Auvo when he walked out of the room on my most
reasonable challenges was right.  When his walking out irrevocably undermined
any reasonably  I might ever have with the children, that that man was right and
I was wrong.
  Once more he has passed JUDGEMENT on me and on all women.  (I've
never seen a women walk out on a man in a superior and depreciating way)
>
>>        Off to investigate Dusty Miller before planting
>
>???

  Oh, no wonder.  He isn't even a gardener!  He doesn't tend and heal the
Earth.
>
>>On Sat, 2 May 1998 00:22:22 -0400 Automatic digest processor
>><LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM> writes:
>>>There are 5 messages totaling 294 lines in this issue.
>
>
>Nancy ... you get this list in "Digest" mode so when replying you
>may need to cut and paste the Subject: line from a particular
>post into the place where it says: Re: PSYBER-L Digest - 30 Apr
>1998 to 1 May 1998 (#1998-79)at the top of your screen.
>
>It is useful to use the *exact* subject line because then it
>*threads* and people can view the discussion by thread.  I think
>it is worth doing.  In the archives particularly, I find it
>useful to print out a whole thread to read at times.
>Unfortunately it sometimes misses posts by people who changed the
>subject but not the intent of posting in that thread.
>
>Good to have you on board and i hope this little bit of coaching
>is OK!  It is not aimed at you exclusively many of us are still
>learning the ropes!
>
>
>Walter
>___________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:24:50 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2

On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 17:28:57 -0400, Nancy Smith  wrote:


>>>On Sat, 2 May 1998 00:22:22 -0400 Automatic digest processor
>>><LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM> writes:
>>>>There are 5 messages totaling 294 lines in this issue.
>>
>>
>>Nancy ... you get this list in "Digest" mode so when replying you
>>may need to cut and paste the Subject: line from a particular
>>post into the place where it says: Re: PSYBER-L Digest - 30 Apr
>>1998 to 1 May 1998 (#1998-79)at the top of your screen.

N: To Lady!  I must have done something truly horrible and unforgiveable.  But
what?  Oh, shudder.  I've only had a computer and Internet Service (I think
that's what it's called???)  for a month and a half.  This is my first interactive
thingie.  HOW UTTERLY AWFUL.  Oh, sob.
  What in the world does this strange, awful man mean?  What is a List.  How
can this thingie in my mailbox be a 'digest' when it seems to contain a full day's
messages?  Why in shit its it called a 'serv' when it is so demanding?  And
Home.ease.lsoft.  NO SUCH THING!
  What in the world does he mean by 'cut'?  By paste?  How can one do such
messy stuff on a glass screen?  He's saying I'm BAD to be who I am, an intuitive
who of course feels that 'all else' practically never 'fails'.   He thinks I should
have read the manual.  He thinks I should have read all that badly written stuff
he put in all that long winded stuff....Diabolically called a Welcome letter...and
what was the other thing?  He didn't ever care enough to spend the time to
write it clearly and accurately.  It was 'stiff' and quite unwelcoming.   And he
probably doesn't have to even redo it more than once a year.   Surely I must be
dealing with someone who isn't able to put himself in other people's shoes!
 Who the HELL does this man think he IS.  ANYBODY?

>>It is useful to use the *exact* subject line because then it
>>*threads* and people can view the discussion by thread.

N: Exact?  EXact?!  EXACT!!!  Oh, MY GOD!  What HELL  has this Intuitive
 gotten herself into?!?!?

>>I think
>>it is worth doing.  In the archives particularly, I find it
>>useful to print out a whole thread to read at times.
>>Unfortunately it sometimes misses posts by people who changed the
>>subject but not the intent of posting in that thread.

N: And JARGAN!  He can't relate at ALL.  What the H... is a 'thread'?  Print out?
Oh, shit.  I don't understand the next part at all.

>>Good to have you on board and i hope this little bit of coaching
>>is OK!  It is not aimed at you exclusively many of us are still
>>learning the ropes!

N:  Well, maybe there is a LITTLE hope for him, after all.  It he wasn't being
tweaked by his Self for being pretty dammed ungracious, he wouldn't have
turned so bluff and hearty.  Well, dang.  Better a hypocrit who resists conscious-
ness prompted to him my his inner authority than a TOTAL interpersonal
insenative.
>>
>>
>>Walter

Nancy
Who still doesn't think that her first reactions were that different from most
INFP new comers, particularly women.
(Oh, dear, poor Water.  Both cheeks must now be stinging with repeated slaps
and mortification.  But with addition he will realize that I was 'pouring mySself
back into the moment of arrival.  And that this in no way affects the new trust
and understanding which growing between herSself and the August List Owner.)
>>___________________________________________________________
>>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:57:38 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998071218245168@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:24:50 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
wrote:

>>>It is useful to use the *exact* subject line because then it
>>>*threads* and people can view the discussion by thread.
>
>N: Exact?  EXact?!  EXACT!!!  Oh, MY GOD!  What HELL  has this Intuitive
> gotten herself into?!?!?

I'm iNtuitive, too, but a T intuitive, so my reactions were completely
different from yours.  When I came here I had much more experience with
the net and lists and especially with the kind of cyberspace with
nitpicky people in it (people like me).

So the very same statement that makes you uncomfortable, is comfortable
and familiar to me.

>Nancy
>Who still doesn't think that her first reactions were that different from most
>INFP new comers, particularly women.
>(Oh, dear, poor Water.  Both cheeks must now be stinging with repeated slaps
>and mortification.  But with addition he will realize that I was 'pouring mySself
>back into the moment of arrival.  And that this in no way affects the new trust
>and understanding which growing between herSself and the August List Owner.)

This looks like an interesting road.  I didn't feel the same feelings
you did but I'm interested in how and why you did, and how Walter will
react to you.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:56:18 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2

On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:57:38 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:24:50 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
>wrote:
>
>>>>It is useful to use the *exact* subject line because then it
>>>>*threads* and people can view the discussion by thread.
>>
>>N: Exact?  EXact?!  EXACT!!!  Oh, MY GOD!  What HELL  has this Intuitive
>> gotten herself into?!?!?
>
>I'm iNtuitive, too, but a T intuitive, so my reactions were completely
>different from yours.  When I came here I had much more experience with
>the net and lists and especially with the kind of cyberspace with
>nitpicky people in it (people like me).  And then a greatly damaged mother
identity/identification made me far more vulnerable to that situation than I can
imagine you'd be, Jojo.

N: I've tested both ways, but due to kids and life circumstances have operated
probably more F.  May well have been born T.  Or adopted T.  Dunno.
    Where I was that day with Water, isn't where I expect to be tomorrow with
first Grand Juy tour.  But then Water's a Jungian and I expect (tho jolly well
haven't always gotten) better of them/us than of persons of a tribunal set.
 And then a greatly damaged mother
identity/identification made me far more vulnerable to that situation than I can
imagine you'd be, Jojo.
  PS I don't think an INTP can ever touch a ESTJ for picky.  Let alone an
oppositionally oriented animus of an INFP, should there ever be one of them
around, she says looking about owlishly (that what I thought Avatar meant until
this morning!)

>So the very same statement that makes you uncomfortable, is comfortable
>and familiar to me.
>
>>Nancy
>>Who still doesn't think that her first reactions were that different from most
>>INFP new comers, particularly women.
>>(Oh, dear, poor Water.  Both cheeks must now be stinging with repeated slaps
>>and mortification.  But with addition he will realize that I was 'pouring mySself
>>back into the moment of arrival.  And that this in no way affects the new trust
>>and understanding which growing between herSself and the August List Owner.)
>
>This looks like an interesting road.  I didn't feel the same feelings
>you did but I'm interested in how and why you did, and how Walter will
>react to you.
>
>-JoAnne

  What follows is what the established  PATRIARCHY does to the latent
Achetypal Feminine both in men and in women.  This is what I suspect
happened to both my and Walter's mothers.  And this is what I believe is
waiting for readdress in all of us, from all of us.  Let us apply ourSselves.
This is the Inner Mad Child.  Yes?

Well, hmmm...there's a vwey...very
young part of me that is all fetally
curled up in a corner with
apprehension just
thinking of what
Walter, the big
and terrible
might
have
to say
to
me
\/

 p
ee
p?


>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:41:32 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Oops! was: [P] Concrete thoughts about abstraction.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Oops! Sorry - this was meant for a friend. :)
J

Just a forward...

Prigogine:
>
>"At equilibrium, molecules behave as essentially independent entities; they

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:39:46 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998071220561975@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:56:18 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:57:38 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 18:24:50 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>>It is useful to use the *exact* subject line because then it
>>>>>*threads* and people can view the discussion by thread.
>>>
>>>N: Exact?  EXact?!  EXACT!!!  Oh, MY GOD!  What HELL  has this Intuitive
>>> gotten herself into?!?!?
>>
>>I'm iNtuitive, too, but a T intuitive, so my reactions were completely
>>different from yours.  When I came here I had much more experience with
>>the net and lists and especially with the kind of cyberspace with
>>nitpicky people in it (people like me).

>And then a greatly damaged mother
>identity/identification made me far more vulnerable to that situation than I can
>imagine you'd be, Jojo.

I'm vulnerable to the other kind of thing -- "too much" emotion and not
enough rules seems uncomfortable or even scary to me.

>N: I've tested both ways, but due to kids and life circumstances have operated
>probably more F.  May well have been born T.  Or adopted T.  Dunno.
>    Where I was that day with Water, isn't where I expect to be tomorrow with
>first Grand Juy tour.  But then Water's a Jungian and I expect (tho jolly well
>haven't always gotten) better of them/us than of persons of a tribunal set.

Walter as Water...is he wearing away a stone?  Dribbling, babbling?
Pooling up, growing mosquito babies and algae and stinking?  Falling
from the sky?  Forming clouds?

> And then a greatly damaged mother
>identity/identification made me far more vulnerable to that situation than I can
>imagine you'd be, Jojo.

I'm sorry about that, Nancy.  How did you feel about Walter and his
mother's story?  How do you feel it reverberate in Walter now?  Or do
you not see it there?

>  PS I don't think an INTP can ever touch a ESTJ for picky.  Let alone an
>oppositionally oriented animus of an INFP, should there ever be one of them
>around, she says looking about owlishly (that what I thought Avatar meant until
>this morning!)

Oh, but I'm INTJ which can be pickypickypicky you bet.  INTP can wait
forever, INTJ has to have something.  Feed that hungry wolf pup
something!  So we can sit down and have lunch more leisurely without it
jumping into our laps slavering into our plates.

>>So the very same statement that makes you uncomfortable, is comfortable
>>and familiar to me.
>>
>>>Nancy
>>>Who still doesn't think that her first reactions were that different from most
>>>INFP new comers, particularly women.
>>>(Oh, dear, poor Water.  Both cheeks must now be stinging with repeated slaps
>>>and mortification.  But with addition he will realize that I was 'pouring mySself
>>>back into the moment of arrival.  And that this in no way affects the new trust
>>>and understanding which growing between herSself and the August List Owner.)
>>
>>This looks like an interesting road.  I didn't feel the same feelings
>>you did but I'm interested in how and why you did, and how Walter will
>>react to you.
>>
>>-JoAnne
>
>  What follows is what the established  PATRIARCHY does to the latent
>Achetypal Feminine both in men and in women.  This is what I suspect
>happened to both my and Walter's mothers.  And this is what I believe is
>waiting for readdress in all of us, from all of us.  Let us apply ourSselves.
>This is the Inner Mad Child.  Yes?
>
>Well, hmmm...there's a vwey...very
>young part of me that is all fetally
>curled up in a corner with
>apprehension just
>thinking of what
>Walter, the big
>and terrible
>might
>have
>to say
>to
>me
>\/
>
> p
>ee
>p?

Stand behind me, Nancy, if you're frightened.  Wa(l)ter won't hurt me.

-Jojo

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:16:38 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
In-Reply-To:  <35c46126.296649921@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:39 AM 7/13/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>>>N: Exact?  EXact?!  EXACT!!!  Oh, MY GOD!  What HELL  has this Intuitive
>>>> gotten herself into?!?!?
>>>
>>>I'm iNtuitive, too, but a T intuitive, so my reactions were completely
>>>different from yours.  When I came here I had much more experience with
>>>the net and lists and especially with the kind of cyberspace with
>>>nitpicky people in it (people like me).
>
>>And then a greatly damaged mother
>>identity/identification made me far more vulnerable to that situation
than I can
>>imagine you'd be, Jojo.

>I'm vulnerable to the other kind of thing -- "too much" emotion and not
>enough rules seems uncomfortable or even scary to me.

Which is why you distrust me. You simply don't trust my deep emotions, and
so conclude they must be dishonest. :)


Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:16:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      avatants
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

"wow when she gets moving the wave motion is great,
wee up and down wee"

"we're going somewhere?"

"what's...oh, we're moving!"

"you're awake...weee."

***

 ]-]~]-<
            (~]-)X
                              )-)-}-B

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 04:42:52 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
In-Reply-To:  <19980713031704.IGVE25534@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:16:38 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 01:39 AM 7/13/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>>>>N: Exact?  EXact?!  EXACT!!!  Oh, MY GOD!  What HELL  has this Intuitive
>>>>> gotten herself into?!?!?
>>>>
>>>>I'm iNtuitive, too, but a T intuitive, so my reactions were completely
>>>>different from yours.  When I came here I had much more experience with
>>>>the net and lists and especially with the kind of cyberspace with
>>>>nitpicky people in it (people like me).
>>
>>>And then a greatly damaged mother
>>>identity/identification made me far more vulnerable to that situation
>than I can
>>>imagine you'd be, Jojo.
>
>>I'm vulnerable to the other kind of thing -- "too much" emotion and not
>>enough rules seems uncomfortable or even scary to me.
>
>Which is why you distrust me. You simply don't trust my deep emotions, and
>so conclude they must be dishonest. :)

Others have deep emotions I trust, why not yours?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:33:11 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
In-Reply-To:  <35d08fb8.308571640@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:42 AM 7/13/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:16:38 -0400, you, Julienne
><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

JoAnne wrote:

>>>I'm vulnerable to the other kind of thing -- "too much" emotion and not
>>>enough rules seems uncomfortable or even scary to me.
>>
>>Which is why you distrust me. You simply don't trust my deep emotions, and
>>so conclude they must be dishonest. :)
>
>Others have deep emotions I trust, why not yours?

Hmmmm. Alice through the looking glass... I could have
sworn I saw you write "'too much' emotion and not enough rules seems
uncomfortable or even scary to me." And I could have sworn that you said
that you were distressed with me on the previous list because I didn't
want  a pile of lists (and still don't - ), and I could have sworn you thought
I should take my grief over my parents' death away where it wouldn't
bother people (read - you).

Just shows ta go ya how our senses deceive...........whom?

Julienne
btw - I have a photo on my website now...


http://www/eastwest.rosnet.ru/julienne

Llamas will be up soon. Got them back yesterday!!!!!! Joy!!!! (Oops! There I
go with that suspicious emotional way I have. Wait till you hear I'm in love
- where are you going to send me to keep me from scaring you with a
whole MOUNTAIN of emotion over that? Ah well...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:16:59 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998071218245168@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nancy

you wrote:

> (Oh, dear, poor Water.  Both cheeks must now be stinging with repeated slaps
> and mortification.  But with addition he will realize that I was 'pouring mySself
> back into the moment of arrival.  And that this in no way affects the new trust
> and understanding which growing between herSself and the August List Owner.)

I don't feel slapped ... now!  I felt the slap when somewhere out of the
blue, as it seemed to me then, I learnt that i had "admonished" you.  Now i
can see how you felt admonished and how I contributed to that.

I used to have (have now) a terrible transference on one of my trainers ...
it was a transference, he became August and Admirable and Wise and
Insightful and All knowing ... in my eyes.
In the face of such Grandeur
I became smaller and
looked up
from a
very
tiny
litt
le

.

and he became terrifying.

(hey, I just saw a repeat of my M & F there)

So i know something of this.  Being me, I though I needed to resolve the
transference ... somehow.  True too.  However in a recent correspondence he
said something like:  "Good on you for jumping right in".  Not those words
exactly, but that patronising tone.  I realised then that  he also had a
part in perpetuating the up down situation we were in.  The patriarchy was
getting at us all from all sides.

Nancy, pointing out how i contribute to the way you felt is useful, it does
not diminish my trust in you, but as you say, leads to growing
understanding.  I have a lot to learn about hosting ... even the name for
the role might not be right for me.  I am not a natural host ... Just how
all this could be done differently would make a good discussion.  I am
going to feel very self conscious next time I try to welcome someone!
Eeeek.  Do we even need a host?  Is it a party?

I think we'll get there, where ever that is.



Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:40:16 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2

On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:39:46 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:56:18 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
>wrote:
>
N: Hi, Jojo.  I'm so glad you could drop by for lunch.

>>And then a greatly damaged mother
>>identity/identification made me far more vulnerable to that situation than I can
>>imagine you'd be, Jojo.
>
>I'm vulnerable to the other kind of thing -- "too much" emotion and not
>enough rules seems uncomfortable or even scary to me.

N: Jojo, I feel there is something more than type operating in this for you, though
I have no idea what it might be.
>
>>N: I've tested both ways, but due to kids and life circumstances have operated
>>probably more F.  May well have been born T.  Or adopted T.  Dunno.

>Walter as Water...is he wearing away a stone?  Dribbling, babbling?
>Pooling up, growing mosquito babies and algae and stinking?  Falling
>from the sky?  Forming clouds?

N: We'll have to ask Meeseo the next time we see her.  She's the one who
(acidentally, I think) dubbed Walter water and it wasn't clear to me from her context (or lack thereof) what she was think/feeling at the time.  But I like it.
 It seems appropriate for the 'flow' around here.  I sort of imagine him having
come first and run like liquid silver all over all the hard rock, wearing away
runlets for us to follow.  I think he and his anima worked together by moonlight.
Chuckling an gurgling to one another, like Robert and his wife in the rain at
the golf course.
>
>> And then a greatly damaged mother
>>identity/identification made me far more vulnerable to that situation than I can
>>imagine you'd be, Jojo.
>
>I'm sorry about that, Nancy.  How did you feel about Walter and his
>mother's story?  How do you feel it reverberate in Walter now?  Or do
>you not see it there?

N: I'd feel compassion for Walter having to do without a mother, if I weren't
so preoccupied with this little child's fear.  But you see the deprived becomes
the deprivor.  So I'm concerned about what Walter will do and feel I must
try to protect this child in case something awful happens.
>
>>  PS I don't think an INTP can ever touch a ESTJ for picky.  Let alone an
>>oppositionally oriented animus of an INFP, should there ever be one of them
>>around, she says looking about owlishly (that what I thought Avatar meant until
>>this morning!)
>
>Oh, but I'm INTJ which can be pickypickypicky you bet.  INTP can wait
>forever, INTJ has to have something.  Feed that hungry wolf pup
>something!  So we can sit down and have lunch more leisurely without it
>jumping into our laps slavering into our plates.

N:  How did I managed to miss that?  You were just saying a day or so ago.
Did you obscure it with something or am I losing it just before I need all my
functions up and operational?
  Is it a boy or girl pup?  Is s/he ominerous like Bear.  I've got some fruit salad
with turkey.  Would s/he eat that?  Maybe we'd better stick with Alpo and
canned fish cat food that Bear likes for his staple.  Hey there pup!  Here stop
chewing the table leg and take this squill of raw hide while I get you something
more sustaining.  That's teak and won't be improved by tooth marks.

>>
>>  What follows is what the established  PATRIARCHY does to the latent
>>Achetypal Feminine both in men and in women.  This is what I suspect
>>happened to both my and Walter's mothers.  And this is what I believe is
>>waiting for readdress in all of us, from all of us.  Let us apply ourSselves.
>>This is the Inner Mad Child.  Yes?
>>
>>Well, hmmm...there's a vwey...very
>>young part of me that is all fetally
>>curled up in a corner with
>>apprehension just
>>thinking of what
>>Walter, the big
>>and terrible
>>might
>>have
>>to say
>>to
>>me
>>\/
>>
>> p
>>ee
>>p?
>
>Stand behind me, Nancy, if you're frightened.  Wa(l)ter won't hurt me.
>
>-Jojo
N: Oh, thanks, Jojo.  Are you sure he won't?  I think the child's name is Dos.
He's looking at you very gratefully but only mouthing some sort of
symbols.  I can't understand one word though I'm sitting over
here in the corner right by him.  Can you make out what
he's saying.  I think part of what has him so scare
is this inability to make himself understood by
anyone who will put their arms around
him and assure him of protection...
I'm not really scared of Walter,
but I'm worried about this
little boy.  All this fear
is eroding the
confidence
he needs
to grow

 p
ee
 p


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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:47:25 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2

>At 01:39 AM 7/13/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>>>>N: Exact?  EXact?!  EXACT!!!  Oh, MY GOD!  What HELL  has this Intuitive
>>>>> gotten herself into?!?!?
>>>>
>>>>I'm iNtuitive, too, but a T intuitive, so my reactions were completely

>>I'm vulnerable to the other kind of thing -- "too much" emotion and not
>>enough rules seems uncomfortable or even scary to me.
>
>Which is why you distrust me. You simply don't trust my deep emotions, and
>so conclude they must be dishonest. :)
>
>
>Julienne
>
N: Juliene, is there any chance at all that it could be 'early emotion' rather than
'deep emotion'?  Ialso find it hard to grok your emotion as 'authentic'
 within the time in which it seems to be evoked.
  I guess I reserve 'deep' for wisely reflective rather than 'reactive' emotions.

Nancy
Knowing quite well that her ants are a bit groggy right now.
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:52:51 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: avatants

On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:16:20 -0500, sc  wrote:

>"wow when she gets moving the wave motion is great,
>wee up and down wee"
>
>"we're going somewhere?"
>
>"what's...oh, we're moving!"
>
>"you're awake...weee."
>
>***
>
> ]-]~]-<
>            (~]-)X
>                              )-)-}-B
>
N: Hey, Hoony!  I gotta tell ya (I wonder, would you stop wheelin around like
that?  Watchin ya is making me sea sick.)  I gotta tell you I dreamed a couple
of nights ago that I was feeling around in a post hole in the middle of the vast
silty river for something precious.  There were two giant ants hanging over
the side of the hole watching and talking to me.  They were you and Judith!

Nancy
Looking for stability
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:00:10 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2

On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:33:11 -0400, Julienne  wrote:


>Llamas will be up soon. Got them back yesterday!!!!!! Joy!!!!

N: That feels silvery clear, clean, cool.....ummm...nice.
  Who mucks out after those llamas?  Or are they always outside so no one
has to?  We have llamas near us.  Owners purchase the 5 acre home of dear
friends of mine when they (friends) moved to the mountains.  Bear and I intend
to visit the ruminants one day and commune.

Nancy
Hoping for the best
>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:08:18 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
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At 02:47 AM 7/13/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:

JUWhich is why you distrust me. You simply don't trust my deep emotions, and
>>so conclude they must be dishonest. :)

>>Julienne
>>>N: Juliene, is there any chance at all that it could be 'early emotion'
rather than
>'deep emotion'?

I don't think those are contradictory. But early and later emotions can be
deep.

> Ialso find it hard to grok your emotion as 'authentic'
> within the time in which it seems to be evoked.
>  I guess I reserve 'deep' for wisely reflective rather than 'reactive'
emotions.

"Wisely reflective" doesn't seem to me to be about emotion - more about
the intellect. Ultimately wisdom, if whole, must come from a deep integration
of heart, head, - or psyche, as I prefer to call them, because I don't like
to split
them as I think splitting is artificial and at best only temporary as one
is held
back waiting for the next wave -

We distrust emotions pretty much Nancy, don't we? They've become too
associated with the feminine, which is little trusted, even by too many
women.

I wonder if you know how like a kick in the stomach your words feel? As
though you want to deauthenticate me, and what I feel. Well...would you feel
better if I said, "OH sure, Nancy - I'm just faking it? " We've done this to
people forever. Children don't really feel. Women are just hysterical. We
continually deny our profundities for terrible fear - of what? Intimacy?
Reality? Responsibility?

Nah. I don't feel. I'm fine. I'll be over
it soon.  Sure  - I feel really great!
Wonderful - how are you? You
know me - over it in two
seconds! That little old
problem?- Fixed that
last week. I have
forgotten what it
was. It was
nothing

>Nancy
>Knowing quite well that her ants are a bit groggy right now.

Not feeling anything much, Nancy?

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:12:36 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
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At 03:00 AM 7/13/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:33:11 -0400, Julienne  wrote:
>
>
>>Llamas will be up soon. Got them back yesterday!!!!!! Joy!!!!
>
>N: That feels silvery clear, clean, cool.....ummm...nice.

"Joy" as "cool"?

Never.

>  Who mucks out after those llamas?  Or are they always outside so no one
>has to?  We have llamas near us.  Owners purchase the 5 acre home of dear
>friends of mine when they (friends) moved to the mountains.  Bear and I
intend
>to visit the ruminants one day and commune.

Whomever looks after them. How could they be left out in the cold and snow and
flaming heat?

Human beings are ruminants.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:56:16 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2

On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 03:08:18 -0400, Julienne  wrote:

>At 02:47 AM 7/13/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>
>JUWhich is why you distrust me. You simply don't trust my deep emotions, and
>>>so conclude they must be dishonest. :)
>
>>>Julienne
>>>>N: Juliene, is there any chance at all that it could be 'early emotion'
>rather than
>>'deep emotion'?
>
>I don't think those are contradictory. But early and later emotions can be
>deep.
>
>> Ialso find it hard to grok your emotion as 'authentic'
>> within the time in which it seems to be evoked.
>>  I guess I reserve 'deep' for wisely reflective rather than 'reactive'
>emotions.
>
>"Wisely reflective" doesn't seem to me to be about emotion - more about
>the intellect. Ultimately wisdom, if whole, must come from a deep integration
>of heart, head, - or psyche, as I prefer to call them, because I don't like
>to split
>them as I think splitting is artificial and at best only temporary as one
>is held
>back waiting for the next wave -

N: You aren't going to agree with this, Julienne, or so I grok.  But I sort of feel
that this is where the Archetypal masculine has a Right to distrust the feminine.
I don't want to go back to Matriarchal values, but the fatherly values have
been too hard won to abandon.  I want to move onward to some half preceived
state which values and jointly impliments the best of both.  Still, as always, we
must go back and redeem and readdress the past before we can move on.

>We distrust emotions pretty much Nancy, don't we? They've become too
>associated with the feminine, which is little trusted, even by too many
>women.

N:  No!  I don't distrust authentic emotions.  Only 'overlay' emotions.  Pseudo
emotions.  I only grand that sometimes I have a grain of trouble telling the
difference.
>
>I wonder if you know how like a kick in the stomach your words feel?

N:  I wouldn't do that, Julienne.  I've been kicked in the stomach and I wouldn't
do that to Hitler (which you certainly ain't!)  At least not now.  Probably if it would
have stopped Auswitz I might have.

> As
>though you want to deauthenticate me, and what I feel.

N: No.  I don't want to do that.  If I had a magic wand I'd use it to help you
become so emotionally authentic that your authenticity would shine out
like a gigantic beacon of like for all the worlds to see.

> Well...would you feel
>better if I said, "OH sure, Nancy - I'm just faking it?

N: How can you ask that, Julienne?  I'm a little hurt at being so misunderstood.
Would you kick me in the stomach?  I don't believe you would do such a thing
on purpose.  How can one inauthenticity make another right?

" We've done this to
>people forever. Children don't really feel. Women are just hysterical. We
>continually deny our profundities for terrible fear - of what? Intimacy?
>Reality? Responsibility?
>
>Nah. I don't feel. I'm fine. I'll be over
>it soon.  Sure  - I feel really great!
>Wonderful - how are you? You
>know me - over it in two
>seconds! That little old
>problem?- Fixed that
>last week. I have
>forgotten what it
>was. It was
>nothing

N: I don't find Chat Rooms as inauthentic as that!  They are a Lot more about
superficial stuff than the List...Or so it seems to an IN.  But they are much more
real and true to the heart and mind than the above.
>
>>Nancy
>>Knowing quite well that her ants are a bit groggy right now.
>
>Not feeling anything much, Nancy?

N:  Yes.  I AM feeling.  But in a restrained sort of way.  I've got to go on jury
duty in 4 hrs.  I can't afford to be too emotional...but that doesn't mean I have
to be inauthentic.  Only to suit my expression as exactly as possible to each
moment among me fellows as I can possibly manage and right now I suspect
a little sleep would be the best guarantee of my ability to do this
DISCRIMINATING(!)
  You have your llamas back and don't yet know who will be caring for them?
Surely I must be overlooking something here.  That doesn't seem possible
after all you've been through about them.

>
>Julienne                                                                     Nancy
                                                                                    Feeling a sort of                                                                                                     archetypal of both                                                                                     feminine
                                                                                    AND masculine

>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 04:18:15 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
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At 03:56 AM 7/13/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:

>N: You aren't going to agree with this, Julienne, or so I grok.  But I
sort of feel
>that this is where the Archetypal masculine has a Right to distrust the
feminine.
>I don't want to go back to Matriarchal values, but the fatherly values have
>been too hard won to abandon.  I want to move onward to some half preceived
>state which values and jointly impliments the best of both.  Still, as
always, we
>must go back and redeem and readdress the past before we can move on.

>>We distrust emotions pretty much Nancy, don't we? They've become too
>>associated with the feminine, which is little trusted, even by too many
>>women.

>N:  No!  I don't distrust authentic emotions.  Only 'overlay' emotions.
Pseudo
>emotions.  I only grand that sometimes I have a grain of trouble telling the
>difference.

And there's the rub. And I would suggest that yoiu clearly have trouble
telling the difference.

>>I wonder if you know how like a kick in the stomach your words feel?
>
>N:  I wouldn't do that, Julienne.  I've been kicked in the stomach and I
wouldn't
>do that to Hitler (which you certainly ain't!)  At least not now.
Probably if it would
>have stopped Auswitz I might have.

I told you how your words felt, Nancy.

>> As though you want to deauthenticate me, and what I feel.

>N: No.  I don't want to do that.  If I had a magic wand I'd use it to help
you
>become so emotionally authentic that your authenticity would shine out
>like a gigantic beacon of like for all the worlds to see.

Er...thanks for the condescension, Nancy.  Why would *you* need to help
me become emotionally authentic unless you felt I weren't? Gaslight...
my reality isn't real - and you're going to tell me what it really is.
If *you* don't "grok" *me*, there must be something wrong with me. Makes
sense? Gaslight.

>> Well...would you feel
>>better if I said, "OH sure, Nancy - I'm just faking it?
>
>N: How can you ask that, Julienne?  I'm a little hurt at being so
misunderstood.
>Would you kick me in the stomach?  I don't believe you would do such a thing
>on purpose.  How can one inauthenticity make another right?

Ah! Then you recognize your attempt to inauthenticize me.
I ask you that because it was what you implied.

>" We've done this to
>>people forever. Children don't really feel. Women are just hysterical. We
>>continually deny our profundities for terrible fear - of what? Intimacy?

>N: I don't find Chat Rooms as inauthentic as that!  They are a Lot more about
>superficial stuff than the List...Or so it seems to an IN.  But they are
much more
>real and true to the heart and mind than the above.

Nancy, I have no idea where you are tonight. What on earth do chat rooms
have to do with anything?

>>>Nancy
>>>Knowing quite well that her ants are a bit groggy right now.
>>
>>Not feeling anything much, Nancy?
>
>N:  Yes.  I AM feeling.  But in a restrained sort of way.

And are restrained feelings authentic?

 I've got to go on jury
>duty in 4 hrs.  I can't afford to be too emotional...but that doesn't mean
I have
>to be inauthentic.  Only to suit my expression as exactly as possible to each
>moment among me fellows as I can possibly manage and right now I suspect
>a little sleep would be the best guarantee of my ability to do this
>DISCRIMINATING(!)

>  You have your llamas back and don't yet know who will be caring for them?
>Surely I must be overlooking something here.  That doesn't seem possible
>after all you've been through about them.

Good Lord, Nancy.  I just sort of thought I'd let them loose on the
streets of Montclair. I have the feeling you didn't hear, or want to hear,
a word
I said tonight, but used my words for your own chats and points.

Judgmental? Wow. And now you sit on a jury.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 05:45:43 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2

Ok, Julienne.  Yes, I have a judgemental complex which I practically never
  let out for air because I hate judgement myself.  But I think I will now.

  YOU, Julienne, are a self-centered, phony.  You use every sleezy trick in the
  book to get people to engage and make contact with you.  And then you
  use them and treat them like shit.

    There.  Does that feel authentic enough?  I thought that Anita was too
  harsh when she said that (I think) that every abused woman provoked her
  abuse.  But in some cases it is all too sadly true.

    I don't want to talk to you any more now.  It's just quite simply a total waste
  of energy.  You are just too darn unreasonable and manipulative.

   I'm not even going to sign my name.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 12:53:06 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
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At 05:45 AM 7/13/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>Ok, Julienne.  Yes, I have a judgemental complex which I practically never
>  let out for air because I hate judgement myself.  But I think I will now.
>
>  YOU, Julienne, are a self-centered, phony.  You use every sleezy trick
in the
>  book to get people to engage and make contact with you.  And then you
>  use them and treat them like shit.
>
>    There.  Does that feel authentic enough?  I thought that Anita was too
>  harsh when she said that (I think) that every abused woman provoked her
>  abuse.  But in some cases it is all too sadly true.
>
>    I don't want to talk to you any more now.  It's just quite simply a
total waste
>  of energy.  You are just too darn unreasonable and manipulative.
>
>   I'm not even going to sign my name.

It's sad that you feel this way, Nancy. However, it would seem that
my reactions to what you were saying to me were correct.

I also wonder why you feel so secure in making such harsh judgements
without knowing me. I don't think any of us here know each other - being
on here is a process of trying to understand each other with considerable
barriers. You have decided you know all about me. Even with JoAnne and
Walter, I am still not sure, and still trying to find clumsy ways to
communicate
with and understand them. I will, therefore, take this as more of a reflection
of your own stuff than mine.

Best wishes.

Julienne -

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 13:15:24 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
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At 05:45 AM 7/13/98 -0400, PS wrote:
>Ok, Julienne.  Yes, I have a judgemental complex which I practically never
>  let out for air because I hate judgement myself.  But I think I will now.
>
>  YOU, Julienne, are a self-centered, phony.  You use every sleezy trick
in the
>  book to get people to engage and make contact with you.  And then you
>  use them and treat them like shit.
>
>    There.  Does that feel authentic enough?  I thought that Anita was too
>  harsh when she said that (I think) that every abused woman provoked her
>  abuse.  But in some cases it is all too sadly true.

I have a PS I want to add on here.

Are you sure you mean to endorse Anita's views? Do you really
believe women have provoked the abuse women in general have suffered
under patriarchy? Do you carry this on to children as well? Do children
deserve their abuse? Does the woman Delores spoke of deserve your abuse?

And....do you know a woman who has not suffered some degree of abuse?

Be careful that your labelling and dismissing of me as "an abused woman"
doesn't some day become a label placed on you.

Like most women, I am not just abused. But most of us, over 80%,
and maybe up to 100$ according to some studies, both male and female,
are abused. How many on this list does that leave out?

You have been calling Walter on the carpet for his welcoming of you -
how are you different from me? My communication is manipulative,
yours, with stories and characters and other techniques, is not?

Life is very complicated, and full, to me of joys and sadnesses. I
have had an extraordinary life that you know nothing about, and to
sum up my experience as "abusive" and deserved, has to come
from a lot of rage.I suggest that we would all, even in moments of
anger, would be best remembering our common humanity and
experience.

I just have to wonder what buttons were pushed here for you Nancy.
Probably not a whole lot different from mine - or those of a million
others. You don't have to talk to me - in fact I nearly didn't answer you
last night - but then you have to think about what it is you don't want
to see.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:39:06 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
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On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:33:11 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 04:42 AM 7/13/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 23:16:38 -0400, you, Julienne
>><zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:
>
>JoAnne wrote:
>
>>>>I'm vulnerable to the other kind of thing -- "too much" emotion and not
>>>>enough rules seems uncomfortable or even scary to me.
>>>
>>>Which is why you distrust me. You simply don't trust my deep emotions, and
>>>so conclude they must be dishonest. :)
>>
>>Others have deep emotions I trust, why not yours?
>
>Hmmmm. Alice through the looking glass... I could have
>sworn I saw you write "'too much' emotion and not enough rules seems
>uncomfortable or even scary to me." And I could have sworn that you said
>that you were distressed with me on the previous list because I didn't
>want  a pile of lists (and still don't - ), and I could have sworn you thought
>I should take my grief over my parents' death away where it wouldn't
>bother people (read - you).

But that doesn't answer my question about why I would mistrust your deep
emotions and not someone else's.  What is different about yours?

>Just shows ta go ya how our senses deceive...........whom?
>
>Julienne
>btw - I have a photo on my website now...
>
>
>http://www/eastwest.rosnet.ru/julienne

Beautiful sari (it is a sari?).  You're beautiful too, as I expected.

>Llamas will be up soon. Got them back yesterday!!!!!! Joy!!!! (Oops! There I
>go with that suspicious emotional way I have. Wait till you hear I'm in love
>- where are you going to send me to keep me from scaring you with a
>whole MOUNTAIN of emotion over that? Ah well...

I'm glad you have your llamas back.  I hope you find a good place to
board them (I remember you're getting them back unexpectedly quickly
though the process has been long and even the end part has dragged on).
You're in love, all the better.

It doesn't keep me from worrying where your emotions, of whatever kind,
will be taking you and us precipitiously and without thought.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:39:06 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
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On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:40:16 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:39:46 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Jul 1998 20:56:18 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
>>wrote:
>>
>N: Hi, Jojo.  I'm so glad you could drop by for lunch.

Glad I could finally make it.

>>>And then a greatly damaged mother
>>>identity/identification made me far more vulnerable to that situation than I can
>>>imagine you'd be, Jojo.
>>
>>I'm vulnerable to the other kind of thing -- "too much" emotion and not
>>enough rules seems uncomfortable or even scary to me.
>
>N: Jojo, I feel there is something more than type operating in this for you, though
>I have no idea what it might be.

I don't either, really, except that it just wasn't done in public.

>>>N: I've tested both ways, but due to kids and life circumstances have operated
>>>probably more F.  May well have been born T.  Or adopted T.  Dunno.
>
>>Walter as Water...is he wearing away a stone?  Dribbling, babbling?
>>Pooling up, growing mosquito babies and algae and stinking?  Falling
>>from the sky?  Forming clouds?
>
>N: We'll have to ask Meeseo the next time we see her.  She's the one who
>(acidentally, I think) dubbed Walter water and it wasn't clear to me from her
>context (or lack thereof) what she was think/feeling at the time.  But I like it.
> It seems appropriate for the 'flow' around here.  I sort of imagine him having
>come first and run like liquid silver all over all the hard rock, wearing away
>runlets for us to follow.  I think he and his anima worked together by moonlight.
>Chuckling an gurgling to one another, like Robert and his wife in the rain at
>the golf course.

That sounds like fun!

>>> And then a greatly damaged mother
>>>identity/identification made me far more vulnerable to that situation than I can
>>>imagine you'd be, Jojo.
>>
>>I'm sorry about that, Nancy.  How did you feel about Walter and his
>>mother's story?  How do you feel it reverberate in Walter now?  Or do
>>you not see it there?
>
>N: I'd feel compassion for Walter having to do without a mother, if I weren't
>so preoccupied with this little child's fear.  But you see the deprived becomes
>the deprivor.  So I'm concerned about what Walter will do and feel I must
>try to protect this child in case something awful happens.

Yes, I understand.

>>>  PS I don't think an INTP can ever touch a ESTJ for picky.  Let alone an
>>>oppositionally oriented animus of an INFP, should there ever be one of them
>>>around, she says looking about owlishly (that what I thought Avatar meant until
>>>this morning!)
>>
>>Oh, but I'm INTJ which can be pickypickypicky you bet.  INTP can wait
>>forever, INTJ has to have something.  Feed that hungry wolf pup
>>something!  So we can sit down and have lunch more leisurely without it
>>jumping into our laps slavering into our plates.
>
>N:  How did I managed to miss that?  You were just saying a day or so ago.
>Did you obscure it with something or am I losing it just before I need all my
>functions up and operational?

I've been ducking in and out so there's no reason to think of me every
minute -- I'm often absent right now.  13-hour work day yesterday, so I
took a break by reading some Psyberlist.

>  Is it a boy or girl pup?  Is s/he ominerous like Bear.  I've got some fruit salad
>with turkey.  Would s/he eat that?

Pup jumped at the idea of Turkey but probably was thinking, great,
something to chase.  She'll eat anything and whatever you give her
she'll eat.  She would eat orange peels if there were nothing else.

>Maybe we'd better stick with Alpo and
>canned fish cat food that Bear likes for his staple.  Hey there pup!  Here stop
>chewing the table leg and take this squill of raw hide while I get you something
>more sustaining.  That's teak and won't be improved by tooth marks.

Puppy says my teeth hurt.  Still growing in you know.  Thanks for the
hide it tastes good and a little salty.  I'll put down some wa(l)ter for
her too.

>>>  What follows is what the established  PATRIARCHY does to the latent
>>>Achetypal Feminine both in men and in women.  This is what I suspect
>>>happened to both my and Walter's mothers.  And this is what I believe is
>>>waiting for readdress in all of us, from all of us.  Let us apply ourSselves.
>>>This is the Inner Mad Child.  Yes?
>>>
>>>Well, hmmm...there's a vwey...very
>>>young part of me that is all fetally
>>>curled up in a corner with
>>>apprehension just
>>>thinking of what
>>>Walter, the big
>>>and terrible
>>>might
>>>have
>>>to say
>>>to
>>>me
>>>\/
>>>
>>> p
>>>ee
>>>p?
>>
>>Stand behind me, Nancy, if you're frightened.  Wa(l)ter won't hurt me.
>>
>>-Jojo
>N: Oh, thanks, Jojo.  Are you sure he won't?  I think the child's name is Dos.

Hello sweet Dos.  How are you?  He just peeped a little again.

Wa(l)ter can't hurt me.  I just don't let him.  And he won't try if he
knows he can't, that's the way wa(l)ter is.

>He's looking at you very gratefully but only mouthing some sort of
>symbols.  I can't understand one word though I'm sitting over
>here in the corner right by him.  Can you make out what
>he's saying.

He's saying puzzles to himself.  There is a pattern.  I'm catching a few
words and I think this is what it is:

He thinks he's here to do some things for someone, anyone who asks,
really, he will give them what he has, but everyone thinks he's the
burden, and they ask him to do things he doesn't understand, give them
things he can't find, and then they yell at him because he doesn't live
up to their expectations.  He's just a little Dos he can't be
everything.

>I think part of what has him so scare
>is this inability to make himself understood by
>anyone who will put their arms around
>him and assure him of protection...

I'll protect him and try to understand him.  But I don't have to
understand him to protect him.

>I'm not really scared of Walter,
>but I'm worried about this
>little boy.  All this fear
>is eroding the
>confidence
>he needs
>to grow
>
> p
>ee
> p

I like your peep, Dos.  You can peep any time you like around me.

You can cry, too, Dos.  It's okay.  It's just me here if you want to be
alone, or I'll let you be alone if you want, I'll be right around the
corner and I'll look in on you every 13 and a half minutes.

-Jojo

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:25:30 EDT
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
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In a message dated 98-07-13 13:16:05 EDT, you write:

<< And....do you know a woman who has not suffered some degree of abuse? >>

or a man?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:25:29 EDT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
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In a message dated 98-07-13 13:16:05 EDT, you write:

<< And....do you know a woman who has not suffered some degree of abuse? >>

Woeman cries

I BLEED!

don't you know that,
can't you smell it
she repeats endlessly

that cloying odor
so overwhelming
surrounding everyone
and we sniff and choke
and say at first
oh YES!
this woman must be
a martyr-ess
because she

Bleeds every month, even!
So surely, we must revere her?

because of her sacrifice(s)?

all that abuse she has taken?

Yet thinking, thinking, please,
help me figure out the way to get away from this smell,
this odor of blood, please,

because we know, we know, that blood also brings vultures
(interesting creatures, vultures, very good at what they do)

so we think that we might use our minds
maybe just a little.

Once in awhile, anyway.

because all this public display of how much
blood has been shed by

WOEMAN

becomes so nauseous
maybe we just can't
revere the martyr-ess

because it repels us
nauseated from her scent.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:10:12 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
In-Reply-To:  <498f3bb0.35aa5f2b@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 03:25 PM 7/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-07-13 13:16:05 EDT, you write:
>
><< And....do you know a woman who has not suffered some degree of abuse? >>
>
>or a man?

Yes. I did say earlier yesterday that figures show that 80%, and perhaps up to
100% of all - I said both - have suffered abuse.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:10:47 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
In-Reply-To:  <3b1ac30.35aa5f2a@aol.com>
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At 03:25 PM 7/13/98 -0400, Sheryl wrote:
>Yet thinking, thinking, please,
>help me figure out the way to get away from this smell,
>this odor of blood, please,
>
>because we know, we know, that blood also brings vultures
>(interesting creatures, vultures, very good at what they do)
>
>so we think that we might use our minds
>maybe just a little.
>
>Once in awhile, anyway.
>
>because all this public display of how much
>blood has been shed by
>
>WOEMAN
>
>becomes so nauseous
>maybe we just can't
>revere the martyr-ess
>
>because it repels us
>nauseated from her scent.

How awful to feel this way about women. But, of course,
there has been this disgust and revulsion about her
for a very long time, hasn't there? "Unclean"! Not
allowed in the house while menstruating.

I have never understood this. These attituds are not
just about the body - but about hate and fear. I have
always found menstrual blood to be wonderful - sexy,
warm. And I love the way it smells and the way all the
body fluids, male and female, mix and create neew
scents. I prefer to think of it all that way.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:17:16 -0400
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Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence
              was retained.
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
In-Reply-To:  <35b03632.3615578@mail.clark.net>
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At 05:39 PM 7/13/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:33:11 -0400, you, Julienne
>But that doesn't answer my question about why I would mistrust your deep
>emotions and not someone else's.  What is different about yours?

Maybe it's not mine you don't trust?

>>Julienne
>>btw - I have a photo on my website now...
>http://www/eastwest.rosnet.ru/julienne
>
>Beautiful sari (it is a sari?).  You're beautiful too, as I expected.

Yes...it's a sari. Thank you...It's about 50,000 years old though...

>>Llamas will be up soon. Got them back yesterday!!!!!! Joy!!!! (Oops! There I
>>go with that suspicious emotional way I have. Wait till you hear I'm in love
>>- where are you going to send me to keep me from scaring you with a
>>whole MOUNTAIN of emotion over that? Ah well...

>I'm glad you have your llamas back.  I hope you find a good place to
>board them (I remember you're getting them back unexpectedly quickly
>though the process has been long and even the end part has dragged on).

Great relief to have my babies back - and the man looking after them has
70 others and understand the horrors mine have been through. They
can't even walk properly because the farmer kept them confined. Two
young ones had never walked on real ground. A real horror story. But
this man is gentle and kind, and feels as I do about animals. So I am
very relieved. They'll stay with him till I move.

>You're in love, all the better.

>It doesn't keep me from worrying where your emotions, of whatever kind,
>will be taking you and us precipitiously and without thought.

You see, JoAnne, I am an empath, and empaths are not afraid of feelings.
Even the extremes of depths and heights. We understand these. What
scares an empath is coldness from others, or between others. While
you are afraid perhaps of lack of control, I know that controlling feelings
tightly, or avoiding them or fearing them is what kills them and leads
to hysteria from bottling up - and illness, and drinking and drugs
and dysfunctional relationships. etc.

That doesn't mean I never worry, of course - but I'd rather feel great
pain and great joys than be numb.

Julienne

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Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 08:52:19 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
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Julienne, JoAnne,

Entering here just as another view...
>You see, JoAnne, I am an empath, and empaths are not afraid of feelings.
>Even the extremes of depths and heights. We understand these. What
>scares an empath is coldness from others, or between others. While
>you are afraid perhaps of lack of control, I know that controlling feelings
>tightly, or avoiding them or fearing them is what kills them and leads
>to hysteria from bottling up - and illness, and drinking and drugs
>and dysfunctional relationships. etc.
>
I don't think the question is about being an empath, because as I have
mentioned I am an empath...in my view it is how that is expressed within
the self and how that is expressed within the world...and I am not afraid
at all of coldness from others or between others...so I don't think *all*
empaths are by definition afraid...that Julienne may be your *response* to
coldness, but the response is not necessarily embedded in the experience of
being an empath...any fear response is a fear response, and I don't think
that control per se is what is the issue but how control is expressed...I
have a control aspect to me, to me it is about balance...when I sing and
there is a lot of emotion in what I am expressing I still have to exercise
control, keeping in balance the emotions to be expressed and the instrument
through which it is expressed...

Now I do think that people have different responses to highly emotionally
expressed feelings...I for one just allow the person to be and know it will
pass...like a weather front...it is an aspect of self expression and I see
it as a personal aesthetic...as an actor I have lived in  a very expression
filled world...as a computer programmer for years I lived in a world of
control...and some computer programmers were the greatest expressives I've
known...neither is better to me just different and I enjoy and derive great
joy from both...

What I do feel here with the dynamic between the two of you is a duality at
one level...making emotions and control at odds...as if they are mutually
exclusive and as if each from the other's point of view (at least as I'm
able to grok it here) is negative...it reminds me of my friend who is poor
and has her own business but is always in money problems...when she talks
about money it is always as a negative response to the people who have
it...so she equates money to bad and therefore is always in money
problems...it isn't the money that is bad it is how the people use the
money...so by her framing she rejects money erroneously when she should be
using discernment and rejecting those values within the people using the
money...


>That doesn't mean I never worry, of course - but I'd rather feel great
>pain and great joys than be numb.

This is an example of what I'm saying, Julienne, you have equated control
to numb and that is not correct, maybe in your experience, but you cannot
make a generalization for everyone...I experience you as a highly
expressive person and I also see that in you, JoAnne, expressed
differently...

What I do see is irritation here, Julienne, when you generalize...it
triggers people by negating them as individuals which then starts a new
round of stuff...thus when you say: <You see, JoAnne, I am an empath, and
empaths are not afraid of feelings.Even the extremes of depths and heights.
We understand these. What scares an empath is coldness from others, or
between others.>

So here is an example of my response to your generalizing. I sit here and
think this is not my experience as an empath and I resent you making the
generalization because now if I mention my empathicness it is defined by
*you*r experience not mine...and one of the response options is a need to
explain my own experience which up until today I have avoided, choosing to
listen and let it roll by...now this was an example of me controlling my
emotions

This isn't.
STOP THE FUCK GENERALIZING ME!!!!!!!!

Judith finding this all very funny

>Julienne
>
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Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:59:55 +0300
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From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      On trees on cursing
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Charles, and   all,

I=92m sitting in  my garden cabin. The apples  and cherries are =
reddening. I=92m looking at trees,  their shades and lights  on the   =
ground,  the whole of their beauty.   I have  written  much  about  =
trees in my novels,  truly I=92m a  tree lover, but  how can I  any more =
trust in them, they are so  unpredictable. Recently  a twenty year  old =
girl   was killed and her two friends were hurt seriously  by  a linden  =
at the centre of  Helsinki. The y were standing by  the tree, when   it =
fell  on them .  Now  the  Police=92s  Violence Crime Department is  =
investigating the  case. Who is to blame?  The tree? The whirlwind?   Or =
the municipal authority who  answers for   the condition of the city =
trees? Perhaps it was  wrath of the tree, of  nature.  Nature is  not =
only  beautiful, it is  cruel and  chaotic.
    I  have only one book with me  here  in  the garden cabin. It  is  =
Kathleen Raine=92s   The Lion=92s Mouth recommended  by you, Charles.  =
How you guessed, that it might interest me?   It  resonated   with  me =
from the very beginning, when  she  says:
    =94 For in  reality  fate is itself a kind of choice; made not =
consciously but with the=20
      whole  of our   being, which responds only to that to which  it is =
attuned. And of all=20
      things the worst is to fail,  not in those relationships and =
activities which  were never=20
      really ours, but that inner and  predestined calling  to which =
each of us is born. A=20
      vocation, surely, always of love, for what is love that deep =
attraction  to what is our=20
      own?=94 (p.6)

This  is very Emersonian  thought.   I was a  natural  mystic  in my  =
youth, that=92s why  Kathleen=92s  book resonates to me. I sense kinship =
with her..  But  my  way has been  different from her  way . She writes:
    =94 I, who in my youth was caught up erotic passion and would =
sacrificed all else to it,=20
     now  thought carnal desire a small thing to forgo for the sake of a =
deeper love.=94=20

The development in my life  has been  quite contrary.   Perhaps  I have =
not  been wise because I have  exchanged =94 the  seed of the greatest =
of all trees for  earthly happiness=94 as an Indian sage   said to  two =
people, a man and a woman, who met in dreams, and when met in reality, =
they married. I met  my partner  - a writer too - twenty years ago in a =
dream. It was  a platonic love for years,  but  now  I  have  lived with =
him in an earthly paradise for  eight years,  and  there  is  a snake - =
there must be a snake,  unlike  in  Kathleen=92s  paradise vision. To  =
her the  snake is a sign of evil. To me  it is  a sign of  a change - =
and  creativity.   If there is no contradiction, there is no  =
creativity.   Of course the snake is also  a sign of erotic love.  To my =
experience a platonic, spiritual love  is not for  women, it  makes only =
 murderous. So  I understand well   Kathleen=92s   curse on  her  =
=94spiritual=94 lover, Gavin who  broke her illusion.   She writes:=20
    =94 It seemed to me that to have stood with another soul before that =
Tree must=20
      constitute a sacred bond.  Marriage, lacking that  dimension, had =
not seemed to me
      a binding relationship; but  this, rooted in paradisal ground =
seemed to me  eternally
      binding.=94

That  Tree which  Kathleen saw in her vision, was a rowan. ( Btw,  a =
holy tree in  Finnish mythology).
        =94 It bore  its clusters of white flowers. In it was  a =
blackbird and   at the  foot  the=20
         sleeping boy  about twelve  years  old.  The tree was on the =
summit of a hill, and I=20
         was aware of the  flow of waters into its roots, gathered from =
the darkness and=20
        cold storms I knew to be raging  below and cold to form and =
flower and  fruit was=20
        all, I knew, taking  place in the mind of the sleeper; all was =
his thought, his dream
        raising the tree and its flowers continually into being. I  saw =
neither serpent  nor wall=20
       round the garden; my tree stood wild and free, uncircumscribed  =
and without any=20
       symbol of evil.=94 ( p.16)

She  saw the vision that very day or few  days later when she met  Gavin =
first time.  The whole  book   develops round  this  vision.  The  chief =
theme is  the expelling from  Eden. Gavin betrayed her,  to him  their =
relationship  was  neither  binding , nor  grounded in Paradise, and   =
Kathleen cursed him to  suffer as much  she  has suffered   because of =
him.  Somewhere Kathleen mentions  in passing that  her Sun and Pluto =
are in conjunction  in her natal chart..  Maybe  it was the cause  - her =
 Plutonian pride  and  hate  was so  strong  and  murderous .  At least =
the power of her curse   was  impressive. But it  damaged herself most =
of all, she could=92t write poems for  years.

With warm regards
Anita
  =20

 =20

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:03:30 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter. host, greets shy newcomer, Pt. 2
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980713212457.01106bc0@postoffice.att.net>
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On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:17:16 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>At 05:39 PM 7/13/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>On Mon, 13 Jul 1998 01:33:11 -0400, you, Julienne
>>But that doesn't answer my question about why I would mistrust your deep
>>emotions and not someone else's.  What is different about yours?
>
>Maybe it's not mine you don't trust?

Still doesn't tell me what it is about you versus others that triggers
my mistrust.

>>>Julienne
>>>btw - I have a photo on my website now...
>>http://www/eastwest.rosnet.ru/julienne
>>
>>Beautiful sari (it is a sari?).  You're beautiful too, as I expected.
>
>Yes...it's a sari. Thank you...It's about 50,000 years old though...

Nothing wrong with that of course!

>>>Llamas will be up soon. Got them back yesterday!!!!!! Joy!!!! (Oops! There I
>>>go with that suspicious emotional way I have. Wait till you hear I'm in love
>>>- where are you going to send me to keep me from scaring you with a
>>>whole MOUNTAIN of emotion over that? Ah well...
>
>>I'm glad you have your llamas back.  I hope you find a good place to
>>board them (I remember you're getting them back unexpectedly quickly
>>though the process has been long and even the end part has dragged on).
>
>Great relief to have my babies back - and the man looking after them has
>70 others and understand the horrors mine have been through. They
>can't even walk properly because the farmer kept them confined. Two
>young ones had never walked on real ground. A real horror story. But
>this man is gentle and kind, and feels as I do about animals. So I am
>very relieved. They'll stay with him till I move.

Excellent.  Here's to your babies growing strong.

>>You're in love, all the better.
>
>>It doesn't keep me from worrying where your emotions, of whatever kind,
>>will be taking you and us precipitiously and without thought.
>
>You see, JoAnne, I am an empath, and empaths are not afraid of feelings.
>Even the extremes of depths and heights. We understand these. What
>scares an empath is coldness from others, or between others. While
>you are afraid perhaps of lack of control, I know that controlling feelings
>tightly, or avoiding them or fearing them is what kills them and leads
>to hysteria from bottling up - and illness, and drinking and drugs
>and dysfunctional relationships. etc.
>
>That doesn't mean I never worry, of course - but I'd rather feel great
>pain and great joys than be numb.

Can't you imagine that other people do not feel the same as you?

I feel that you are defining me into a corner here, as cold,
controlling, hysterical (isn't that what we label women as if they don't
act the way we want them?), ill, drinking or drugging, with a
dysfunctional relationship, and numb.  This isn't very nice.

Isn't there room in your world for people very unlike you who are
healthy?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:14:13 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: On trees on cursing
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Anita,

I continue to receive in joy and thankfulness gifts from your tree of
knowledge...

Judith in humble gratitude

>Charles, and   all,
>
>I=92m sitting in  my garden cabin. The apples  and cherries are reddening.
>I=92m looking at trees,  their shades and lights  on the   ground,  the
>whole of their beauty.   I have  written  much  about  trees in my novels,
>truly I=92m a  tree lover, but  how can I  any more trust in them, they are
>so  unpredictable. Recently  a twenty year  old girl   was killed and her
>two friends were hurt seriously  by  a linden  at the centre of  Helsinki.
>The y were standing by  the tree, when   it fell  on them .  Now  the
>Police=92s  Violence Crime Department is  investigating the  case. Who is t=
o
>blame?  The tree? The whirlwind?   Or the municipal authority who  answers
>for   the condition of the city trees? Perhaps it was  wrath of the tree,
>of  nature.  Nature is  not only  beautiful, it is  cruel and  chaotic.
>    I  have only one book with me  here  in  the garden cabin. It  is
>Kathleen Raine=92s   The Lion=92s Mouth recommended  by you, Charles.  How =
you
>guessed, that it might interest me?   It  resonated   with  me from the
>very beginning, when  she  says:
>    =94 For in  reality  fate is itself a kind of choice; made not
>consciously but with the
>      whole  of our   being, which responds only to that to which  it is
>attuned. And of all
>      things the worst is to fail,  not in those relationships and
>activities which  were never
>      really ours, but that inner and  predestined calling  to which each
>of us is born. A
>      vocation, surely, always of love, for what is love that deep
>attraction  to what is our
>      own?=94 (p.6)
>
>This  is very Emersonian  thought.   I was a  natural  mystic  in my
>youth, that=92s why  Kathleen=92s  book resonates to me. I sense kinship wi=
th
>her..  But  my  way has been  different from her  way . She writes:
>    =94 I, who in my youth was caught up erotic passion and would sacrifice=
d
>all else to it,
>     now  thought carnal desire a small thing to forgo for the sake of a
>deeper love.=94
>
>The development in my life  has been  quite contrary.   Perhaps  I have
>not  been wise because I have  exchanged =94 the  seed of the greatest of
>all trees for  earthly happiness=94 as an Indian sage   said to  two people=
,
>a man and a woman, who met in dreams, and when met in reality, they
>married. I met  my partner  - a writer too - twenty years ago in a dream.
>It was  a platonic love for years,  but  now  I  have  lived with him in
>an earthly paradise for  eight years,  and  there  is  a snake - there
>must be a snake,  unlike  in  Kathleen=92s  paradise vision. To  her the
>snake is a sign of evil. To me  it is  a sign of  a change - and
>creativity.   If there is no contradiction, there is no  creativity.   Of
>course the snake is also  a sign of erotic love.  To my experience a
>platonic, spiritual love  is not for  women, it  makes only  murderous. So
>I understand well   Kathleen=92s   curse on  her  =94spiritual=94 lover, Ga=
vin
>who  broke her illusion.   She writes:
>    =94 It seemed to me that to have stood with another soul before that
>Tree must
>      constitute a sacred bond.  Marriage, lacking that  dimension, had
>not seemed to me
>      a binding relationship; but  this, rooted in paradisal ground seemed
>to me  eternally
>      binding.=94
>
>That  Tree which  Kathleen saw in her vision, was a rowan. ( Btw,  a holy
>tree in  Finnish mythology).
>        =94 It bore  its clusters of white flowers. In it was  a blackbird
>and   at the  foot  the
>         sleeping boy  about twelve  years  old.  The tree was on the
>summit of a hill, and I
>         was aware of the  flow of waters into its roots, gathered from
>the darkness and
>        cold storms I knew to be raging  below and cold to form and flower
>and  fruit was
>        all, I knew, taking  place in the mind of the sleeper; all was his
>thought, his dream
>        raising the tree and its flowers continually into being. I  saw
>neither serpent  nor wall
>       round the garden; my tree stood wild and free, uncircumscribed  and
>without any
>       symbol of evil.=94 ( p.16)
>
>She  saw the vision that very day or few  days later when she met  Gavin
>first time.  The whole  book   develops round  this  vision.  The  chief
>theme is  the expelling from  Eden. Gavin betrayed her,  to him  their
>relationship  was  neither  binding , nor  grounded in Paradise, and
>Kathleen cursed him to  suffer as much  she  has suffered   because of
>him.  Somewhere Kathleen mentions  in passing that  her Sun and Pluto are
>in conjunction  in her natal chart..  Maybe  it was the cause  - her
>Plutonian pride  and  hate  was so  strong  and  murderous .  At least the
>power of her curse   was  impressive. But it  damaged herself most of all,
>she could=92t write poems for  years.
>
>With warm regards
>Anita
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:17:53 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: On trees on cursing

I'm just going to sit here in my little white, empty box and mumble to myself.
    It's the only place I can  find today that isn't all sticky with blood.  Dang that
    blood!  If you get within siting distance it just flies at you...than more and more
    of it until you're so thickly, ickly covered with it that it clogs your ears  so you
    cannot hear, except reddly.  Iit clogs your eyes so you cannot see
    except in anger and pity for all.  Cloying it clogs your mouth so you cannot
    scream, Scream, SCREAM.  And then it slimes into your nose.  Then the
    entire universe is blood, Blood, BLOOD.  And then...you are totally and
    beserkly MaDDDdddddd...........  You flail your arms and claw at your face
    in a vain effort to clear enough away so that one tiny atom of spring=fresh
    air can reach your searing lungs....to no avail.../\

      I say 'you' because if I said 'I' those rivers of adhere in blood would flow so
   close and I would begin to puke.  I would go on puking until everything that
   was within be would have flowed out of me.  And I would lie, with the skin
   at the middle, all covered with steaming jelly-like guts.

     I don't want to do that.  The horses in the stable sense my state.  They are
   stompping, rolling their eyes to show the whites, and neighing with terror.

    Dos has waked up from the fragrant dream JoAnne gave him.  He looks
  very statled to wake so suddenly into such bedlam.  His lips move.  I am
  straining to make out what he might be saying...It's not 'peep'...yes..
  .go on...I think...I've almost got it...YES.   He's learned a new word.  It's...it's..:

       no  No   NO....NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo!!!!!!!!!!
   NONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:58:30 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Brief
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To JoAnne,

The whole point of being an empath is to realize there are different types.

To Judith

One empath is not every empath. Just as every INFP is not the same as every
other.
Any categorization is understood to contain as much variation as people
within it,
but those within the category share more than those without - if there is
any point
at all to the categorization.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:28:49 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: On trees on cursing
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On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:17:53 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
wrote:

>    Dos has waked up from the fragrant dream JoAnne gave him.  He looks
>  very statled to wake so suddenly into such bedlam.  His lips move.  I am
>  straining to make out what he might be saying...It's not 'peep'...yes..
>  .go on...I think...I've almost got it...YES.   He's learned a new word.  It's...it's..:
>
>       no  No   NO....NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo!!!!!!!!!!
>
>NONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!
!
>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wonderful Dos!  Just wonderful!

When you feel like it, Dos, let's get us a shower and then sit in the
sun, outside, away from all this blood for a while.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:39:17 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: On trees on cursing
In-Reply-To:  <35be8d86.91507984@mail.clark.net>
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At 05:28 PM 7/14/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:17:53 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
>wrote:
>
>>    Dos has waked up from the fragrant dream JoAnne gave him.  He looks
>>  very statled to wake so suddenly into such bedlam.  His lips move.  I am
>>  straining to make out what he might be saying...It's not 'peep'...yes..
>>  .go on...I think...I've almost got it...YES.   He's learned a new word.
 It's...it's..:
>>
>>       no  No   NO....NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>NONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>Wonderful Dos!  Just wonderful!
>
>When you feel like it, Dos, let's get us a shower and then sit in the
>sun, outside, away from all this blood for a while.
>
>-JoAnne

And deny and reject our essential nature.

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:55:26 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: On trees on cursing

On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 17:28:49 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:17:53 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
>wrote:
>
>>    Dos has waked up from the fragrant dream JoAnne gave him.  He looks
>>  very statled to wake so suddenly into such bedlam.  His lips move.  I am
>>  straining to make out what he might be saying...It's not 'peep'...yes..
>>  .go on...I think...I've almost got it...YES.   He's learned a new word.  It's...it's..:
>>
>>       no  No   NO....NoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNoNo!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>>NONONONONO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>!!!!!!!
>!
>>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Wonderful Dos!  Just wonderful!
>
>When you feel like it, Dos, let's get us a shower and then sit in the
>sun, outside, away from all this blood for a while.
>
>-JoAnne
>
    JoJo, Dos wanta swim.  Teach Dos to swim, please. (He looks up)  Swim
 away.  Water wash blood away.  Soldiers make bloody.  Scare Dos.  Kill Dos
  Please Jojo.  Teach Dos.

>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:37:19 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: On trees on cursing
In-Reply-To:  <19980714173944.YBLD25531@default>
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On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:39:17 -0400, you, Julienne
<zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, wrote:

>>When you feel like it, Dos, let's get us a shower and then sit in the
>>sun, outside, away from all this blood for a while.
>>
>>-JoAnne
>
>And deny and reject our essential nature.

Uhm.  Is it my essential nature I'm rejecting, or yours?  Do you think
it's necessary for everyone to sit in blood all day?  It may be
necessary for you, but I don't think it is for me.

Or did you miss my "for a while" up there?

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:37:20 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: On trees on cursing
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998071413552862@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:55:26 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
wrote:

>>Wonderful Dos!  Just wonderful!
>>
>>When you feel like it, Dos, let's get us a shower and then sit in the
>>sun, outside, away from all this blood for a while.
>>
>>-JoAnne
>>
>    JoJo, Dos wanta swim.  Teach Dos to swim, please. (He looks up)  Swim
> away.  Water wash blood away.  Soldiers make bloody.  Scare Dos.  Kill Dos
>  Please Jojo.  Teach Dos.

Come on, Dos, and we'll swim this all away.  Let JoJo pick you up,
sweetie, the soldiers can't hurt you if I'm holding you.  I'm holding
you tight now.  I'm wiping what I can off of Dos.

First we have to get up out of this bloody sticky place.  Here are some
stairs.  I need to use one hand to hold the railing but I'm holding you
tight with the other one.

Ahh.  See the nice warm sun?  Bright isn't it?  And air, a little
breeze.  Smells so much better up here.  Green trees and shade and a
little stream making little noises.

Ooh, I know.  It looks worse now in the light.  All that blood.  Don't
cry sweetie they can't come after us now.

Look!  Here's the pool!  Bright silver blue pool, deep and shallow
parts, and a fence around it.  Yes, I'm a member, Mister Pool Guard.
Dos is my guest.  Yes, we'll shower first.

We have to go under the shower first so the pool stays clean, Dos.  I'll
be right there with you, don't be afraid.

It's a little cool, yes, I'm right here, I'll hold you so you don't
slip.  Stretch out your arms and legs.  Splash!  There, the blood is
going away down the drain.  I had some on me too, Dos, so we're both
getting clean together.  Rub your arms.  rub your legs.  Rub your face.
Here's a spot I missed.  Here's a spot you missed.

Funny feeling, isn't it.  I'm warm on the inside but cool on the outside
from the cool water.  Touch my arm, Dos, doesn't it feel funny!

We're all wet and all clean.  I think we're done with the shower now.
It's shady here, let's go to the sunny part.

The sun is shining.  Feels good, yes!  We've got sun on us now and our
outside is warming up.

Do you want to go in the pool now, or sit in the sun for a few minutes
first now that you're clean?

Once you learn how to swim in the pool I promise we can go in the ocean,
the pretty pretty sparkly ocean, and you can learn to swim there too,
with the waves and the sand and the crabs and fish.

-JoAnne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 15:54:46 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
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In-Reply-To:  <19980714165847.XDHJ25531@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Julienne,

May I offer a suggestion, with a grain of salt? Since what you write below
is true,

>To JoAnne,
>
>The whole point of being an empath is to realize there are different types.
>
>To Judith
>
>One empath is not every empath.

then you can see how not making it clear ("One empath is not every
empath.") in your original assertion "You see, JoAnne, I am an empath, and
empaths are not afraid of feelings." proved to offend some sensibilities.

Why not write"

"You see, JoAnne, I am an empath, and I'm not afraid of feelings."

I suppose we could automatically translate all generalizations, true. But,
then when somebody wished to generalize, we might not know it. Right?

This is easy to presume:

>Any categorization is understood to contain as much variation as people
>within it,

but why not make it clear also in how we talk about a catagory?

***

just a few thoughts,

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:10:30 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Brief
In-Reply-To:  <v04011701b1d17314d7e3@[207.54.160.158]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 03:54 PM 7/14/98 -0500, Hoon wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>May I offer a suggestion, with a grain of salt? Since what you write below
>is true,
>
>>To JoAnne,
>>
>>The whole point of being an empath is to realize there are different types.
>>
>>To Judith
>>
>>One empath is not every empath.
>
>then you can see how not making it clear ("One empath is not every
>empath.") in your original assertion "You see, JoAnne, I am an empath, and
>empaths are not afraid of feelings." proved to offend some sensibilities.
>
>Why not write"
>
>"You see, JoAnne, I am an empath, and I'm not afraid of feelings."
>
>I suppose we could automatically translate all generalizations, true. But,
>then when somebody wished to generalize, we might not know it. Right?
>
>This is easy to presume:
>
>>Any categorization is understood to contain as much variation as people
>>within it,
>
>but why not make it clear also in how we talk about a catagory?
>
>***
>
>just a few thoughts,

Thanks, Hoon. I must admit I forgot my audience.

Love,

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:52:20 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: On trees, on swimming

On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:37:20 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:55:26 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
>wrote:
>
>>>Wonderful Dos!  Just wonderful!
>>>
>>>When you feel like it, Dos, let's get us a shower and then sit in the
>>>sun, outside, away from all this blood for a while.

>>-JoAnne

  ~~~  Go now, Jojo.   Dos needs to get away where sticky stuff can't follow.
>
>>    JoJo, Dos wanta swim.  Teach Dos to swim, please. (He looks up)  Swim
>> away.  Water wash blood away.  Soldiers make bloody.  Scare Dos.  Kill Dos
>>  Please Jojo.  Teach Dos.
>
>Come on, Dos, and we'll swim this all away.  Let JoJo pick you up,
>sweetie, the soldiers can't hurt you if I'm holding you.  I'm holding
>you tight now.  I'm wiping what I can off of Dos.

 ~~~ Oh, so nice. Soft. (Patting check)  Dos feel safe up here with Jojo.
>
>First we have to get up out of this bloody sticky place.  Here are some
>stairs.  I need to use one hand to hold the railing but I'm holding you
>tight with the other one.

  ~~ Up, up, up we go.  Jojo hold tight.  Don't slip.  Don't drop Dos.  Up, up...
>
>Ahh.  See the nice warm sun?  Bright isn't it?  And air, a little
>breeze.  Smells so much better up here.  Green trees and shade and a
>little stream making little noises.
>
>Ooh, I know.  It looks worse now in the light.  All that blood.  Don't
>cry sweetie they can't come after us now.

   Ok.  Wipe all nasty sticky stuff off.  Dos help.
>
>Look!  Here's the pool!  Bright silver blue pool, deep and shallow
>parts, and a fence around it.  Yes, I'm a member, Mister Pool Guard.
>Dos is my guest.  Yes, we'll shower first.

  ``` Mr. Pool Guard looks stern, Jojo?  You hold Dos' hand.  Not let him slip
  down drain with stick blood?
>
>We have to go under the shower first so the pool stays clean, Dos.  I'll
>be right there with you, don't be afraid.

  ~~~  Oooo.  cold!  In Dos' face.  Dos not tall like Jojo.
>
>It's a little cool, yes, I'm right here, I'll hold you so you don't
>slip.  Stretch out your arms and legs.  Splash!  There, the blood is
>going away down the drain.  I had some on me too, Dos, so we're both
>getting clean together.  Rub your arms.  rub your legs.  Rub your face.
>Here's a spot I missed.  Here's a spot you missed.
>
>Funny feeling, isn't it.  I'm warm on the inside but cool on the outside
>from the cool water.  Touch my arm, Dos, doesn't it feel funny!

  ~~~ Oooo...Jojo's arm all over goosy bumps!  Funnnyyyy...Gossy bumps....
>
>We're all wet and all clean.  I think we're done with the shower now.
>It's shady here, let's go to the sunny part.

  ~~~ Jojo here.  Dos here.  Bear not here.  Wolfie not here.  Bear Wolfie home
  playing in back yard.  Having fun.  Don't mind Dos and Jojo left them?  Dos
  gonna scrunch up by Jojo.  Jojo not leave Dos.  No no.  Not leave D-d-dos
  alone at big strange pool....Not?
>
>The sun is shining.  Feels good, yes!  We've got sun on us now and our
>outside is warming up.

  ~~~ Warming up.  Yes.
>
>Do you want to go in the pool now, or sit in the sun for a few minutes
>first now that you're clean?

  ~~Shinny pool.  Dancy water.  Dos getting a little sleepy.  Dancy, dancy...d...
>
>Once you learn how to swim in the pool I promise we can go in the ocean,
>the pretty pretty sparkly ocean, and you can learn to swim there too,
>with the waves and the sand and the crabs and fish.

  JoAnne

  ~~~ (with a little start)  Ocean?  Strange  (tasting it)  Ooshiiaannn... Fish?
  Sand?  Crabs?  Waves?  Jojo, take Bear and Wolfie, too.  And Little Lamp.
  Llamp shiny.  Would like shiny ooshean...Yes?  Dos learn to swim fast.  Strong!
  Save everybody if waves too high.    Ummmm....Let's start in the shallow end.
   Ok, Jojo?
>

>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:15:02 -0500
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Thanks, Hoon. I must admit I forgot my audience.
>
>Love,
>
>Julienne

Wow. First time I ever saw an animus take over an entire group. Such is the
power of forgetting.

***

HooN

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:03:58 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Policeman's Creek
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Policeman=92s Creek

A narrow trail of exposed roots and thin dirt
bends with the barley perceptible rise and fall =

of the wooded shores of Policeman=92s Creek.

Touching the banks, the water carves tiny bays
and washes the dark roots of tall slender spruces
a few of which lie fallen to the creek=92s caresses.

Translucent pools of green hued with faint blue
softening the lines of creek bottom etched and =

carved gently by the water=92s unceasing flowing.

At moments where the current flows transparent
over small rocks polished smooth and clean
a glimpse of clarity is promised by the water.

An invitation to immerse and seek cleansing
is offered by the gently moving and singing
liquid, an invitation for baptism, for forgiveness.

The lure is offered both to the eyes and ears
a soft whispering murmur, voices that paint
scenes of sunshine, of love=92s embrace, of peace.

 Sound folding, bending, rippling, laughing
echoing stories of heroes, of victories and defeats
of passion and those long fallen and forgotten.

Then the water=92s rushing and roiling upon itself
gives warning as it pulls and pushes that there is
no retreat, there is no quitting or turning around.

Robert Longpr=E9     =A9        1998-07-07

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:25:16 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Brief

On Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:15:02 -0500, sc  wrote:

>Wow. First time I ever saw an animus take over an entire group. Such is the
>power of forgetting.
>
>***
>
>HooN
>
  Meaning?  There but for the grace....?

  Well, maaayyyybeeee......

  Nancy,
  Judicially with scepticism
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:32:06 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Policeman's Creek

Oooo,  can I go in the creek, Mom?  Will the man let me go in his creek?  It
  sounds so beautiful and peaceful.

  Why do you think it's called 'Policeman's Creek'?  I bet there's a story.  lDo you
  think he'd tell me the story if we ask?

  N:  I don't know, Dos.  Let's try.

  Robert, would you tell us about Policeman's Creek and what's behind your
  writing of the lovely poem ten days ago?

  Respectfully, Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:19:57 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: On trees, on swimming
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On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:52:20 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
wrote:

>On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:37:20 GMT, JoAnne Schmitz  wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:55:26 -0400, you, Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>,
>>wrote:
>>
>>>>Wonderful Dos!  Just wonderful!
>>>>
>>>>When you feel like it, Dos, let's get us a shower and then sit in the
>>>>sun, outside, away from all this blood for a while.
>
>>>-JoAnne
>
>  ~~~  Go now, Jojo.   Dos needs to get away where sticky stuff can't follow.

Okay here we go.

>>>    JoJo, Dos wanta swim.  Teach Dos to swim, please. (He looks up)  Swim
>>> away.  Water wash blood away.  Soldiers make bloody.  Scare Dos.  Kill Dos
>>>  Please Jojo.  Teach Dos.
>>
>>Come on, Dos, and we'll swim this all away.  Let JoJo pick you up,
>>sweetie, the soldiers can't hurt you if I'm holding you.  I'm holding
>>you tight now.  I'm wiping what I can off of Dos.
>
> ~~~ Oh, so nice. Soft. (Patting check)  Dos feel safe up here with Jojo.
>>
>>First we have to get up out of this bloody sticky place.  Here are some
>>stairs.  I need to use one hand to hold the railing but I'm holding you
>>tight with the other one.
>
>  ~~ Up, up, up we go.  Jojo hold tight.  Don't slip.  Don't drop Dos.  Up, up...
>>
>>Ahh.  See the nice warm sun?  Bright isn't it?  And air, a little
>>breeze.  Smells so much better up here.  Green trees and shade and a
>>little stream making little noises.
>>
>>Ooh, I know.  It looks worse now in the light.  All that blood.  Don't
>>cry sweetie they can't come after us now.
>
>   Ok.  Wipe all nasty sticky stuff off.  Dos help.

Thank you Dos!  I'll help you too.

>>Look!  Here's the pool!  Bright silver blue pool, deep and shallow
>>parts, and a fence around it.  Yes, I'm a member, Mister Pool Guard.
>>Dos is my guest.  Yes, we'll shower first.
>
>  ``` Mr. Pool Guard looks stern, Jojo?  You hold Dos' hand.  Not let him slip
>  down drain with stick blood?

Mr. Pool Guard is my friend.  He makes sure no one gets in the pool that
doesn't belong.

>>We have to go under the shower first so the pool stays clean, Dos.  I'll
>>be right there with you, don't be afraid.
>
>  ~~~  Oooo.  cold!  In Dos' face.  Dos not tall like Jojo.

I'm sorry Dos, I forgot.  Turn the other way.  I'll just cup water in my
hands to help wash your face.  When I do, you blow air out your nose so
it doesn't get in.  Like this. Whoosh!

Ready?

>>It's a little cool, yes, I'm right here, I'll hold you so you don't
>>slip.  Stretch out your arms and legs.  Splash!  There, the blood is
>>going away down the drain.  I had some on me too, Dos, so we're both
>>getting clean together.  Rub your arms.  rub your legs.  Rub your face.
>>Here's a spot I missed.  Here's a spot you missed.
>>
>>Funny feeling, isn't it.  I'm warm on the inside but cool on the outside
>>from the cool water.  Touch my arm, Dos, doesn't it feel funny!
>
>  ~~~ Oooo...Jojo's arm all over goosy bumps!  Funnnyyyy...Gossy bumps....

You have them too.  We're both goosy.

>>We're all wet and all clean.  I think we're done with the shower now.
>>It's shady here, let's go to the sunny part.
>
>  ~~~ Jojo here.  Dos here.  Bear not here.  Wolfie not here.  Bear Wolfie home
>  playing in back yard.  Having fun.  Don't mind Dos and Jojo left them?  Dos
>  gonna scrunch up by Jojo.  Jojo not leave Dos.  No no.  Not leave D-d-dos
>  alone at big strange pool....Not?

I won't leave you alone, Dos.  Stick right by me.  I love having you
here with me.

>>The sun is shining.  Feels good, yes!  We've got sun on us now and our
>>outside is warming up.
>
>  ~~~ Warming up.  Yes.
>>
>>Do you want to go in the pool now, or sit in the sun for a few minutes
>>first now that you're clean?
>
>  ~~Shinny pool.  Dancy water.  Dos getting a little sleepy.  Dancy, dancy...d...

[Jojo strokes Dos's hair a little]

>>Once you learn how to swim in the pool I promise we can go in the ocean,
>>the pretty pretty sparkly ocean, and you can learn to swim there too,
>>with the waves and the sand and the crabs and fish.
>
>  ~~~ (with a little start)  Ocean?  Strange  (tasting it)  Ooshiiaannn... Fish?
>  Sand?  Crabs?  Waves?  Jojo, take Bear and Wolfie, too.  And Little Lamp.
>  Llamp shiny.  Would like shiny ooshean...Yes?  Dos learn to swim fast.  Strong!
>  Save everybody if waves too high.

Did you know that's something else that Mr. Pool Guard does.  See how
strong he is?  He can swim for miles and miles.  You can be a Pool Guard
too, Dos, if you want to be.  Or a Lifeguard at the Ocean.

When we go to the ocean we'll take Bear and Wolfie and Little Lamp and
anyone else who wants to go.  The car will certainly be full!

>Ummmm....Let's start in the shallow end.
>   Ok, Jojo?

Yes!  Great!  Let's go on over to the shallow end.  Here are some steps
in the corner that go into the water.  Are you ready to go in?  I'll
step on the step first.

Now you can sit on the side of the pool.  Put your feet in the water.

-j

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:45:18 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Policeman's Creek
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy and Dos :)

>   Why do you think it's called 'Policeman's Creek'?  I bet there's a story.
> Do you think he'd tell me the story if we ask?

Yes I would, Dos.  Just as you journey into the beginnings of the
Canadian Rocky Mountains on the way to Banff, Alberta, Canada, there is
a small community called Canmore.  A long time ago, this used to be a
resting place for the Stoney Indians as they travelled the mountains and
the foothills.  With the coming of whitemen to the area in search of
valuable minerals, the Canadian government decided that they needed to
set up a post for the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in order to protect
the First Nations Peoples from unscrupulous white traders and miners
(unscrupulous means that they were mean, bad people who were selfish and
never thought of others ... they never even said thank you).

In the valley is a large river called the Bow River and into this river
flows a creek that had no name.  The RCMP post was set up beside the
creek so that the policeman who lived and worked at the post wouldn't
have to walk far for his water.  After a fer years, people called the
creek "Policeman's Creek."

>   Robert, would you tell us about Policeman's Creek and what's behind your
>   writing of the lovely poem ten days ago?

Nancy, I had just returned from a session of analysis to find the camper
empty and a note from Maureen, my wife saying that she had gone for a
walk.  Just behind the camper was this creek called Policeman's Creek.
I decided to take advantage of the time alone to cross the creek and
look for a quiet place where I could reflect on the morning's session.
As I walked along the shores of the creek, I came upon this location
where the creek began to talk to me.  And so, I sat down and wrote the
words it spoke to me.

truthfully,

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:19:01 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Policeman's Creek
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Thank you Robert...I can feel *it* flowing and yes

>Then the water=92s rushing and roiling upon itself
>gives warning as it pulls and pushes that there is
>no retreat, there is no quitting or turning around.

Blessings
Judith

>Policeman=92s Creek
>
>A narrow trail of exposed roots and thin dirt
>bends with the barley perceptible rise and fall
>of the wooded shores of Policeman=92s Creek.
>
>Touching the banks, the water carves tiny bays
>and washes the dark roots of tall slender spruces
>a few of which lie fallen to the creek=92s caresses.
>
>Translucent pools of green hued with faint blue
>softening the lines of creek bottom etched and
>carved gently by the water=92s unceasing flowing.
>
>At moments where the current flows transparent
>over small rocks polished smooth and clean
>a glimpse of clarity is promised by the water.
>
>An invitation to immerse and seek cleansing
>is offered by the gently moving and singing
>liquid, an invitation for baptism, for forgiveness.
>
>The lure is offered both to the eyes and ears
>a soft whispering murmur, voices that paint
>scenes of sunshine, of love=92s embrace, of peace.
>
> Sound folding, bending, rippling, laughing
>echoing stories of heroes, of victories and defeats
>of passion and those long fallen and forgotten.
>
>Then the water=92s rushing and roiling upon itself
>gives warning as it pulls and pushes that there is
>no retreat, there is no quitting or turning around.
>
>Robert Longpr=E9     =A9        1998-07-07
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:26:01 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Prop Alert
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Nancy,
So does Dos need water wings or a rubber ducky or an inner tube...maybe a
snorkel for you JoAnne?

Hey this list is getting longer...I've added a book I'm reading called
Longing for Darkness Tara and the Black Madonna which I'll be glad to
share...I'm getting the hang of this myth thing thanks to Charles's trees,
Anita and the ants dants...

Whopee!
Judith getting her toes wet

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Date:         Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:05:53 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Prop Alert
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At 06:26 PM 7/17/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>Nancy,
>So does Dos need water wings or a rubber ducky or an inner tube...maybe a
>snorkel for you JoAnne?

I vote for leaving the swimming assists behind and drowning the
whole lot!!!!

Anyone else got the heebie jeebies around here these days?

Someone please teach these people to swim, for gosh sakes.

Whew!

Julienne - hoping help will soon be available for these
disadvantaged.

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Date:         Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:37:43 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Prop Alert
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Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:05:53
-0400 you wrote:

>At 06:26 PM 7/17/98 -0400, Nancy wrote:
>>Nancy,
>>So does Dos need water wings or a rubber ducky or an inner tube...maybe a
>>snorkel for you JoAnne?
>
>I vote for leaving the swimming assists behind and drowning the
>whole lot!!!!

Fortunately, Jojo can already swim, and learned to swim without waterwings
or other unnecessary crutches (apologies to those who use crutches for a
reason).  Dos will probably learn that way too if he's okay with that.

>Anyone else got the heebie jeebies around here these days?
>
>Someone please teach these people to swim, for gosh sakes.

These people?

>Whew!
>
>Julienne - hoping help will soon be available for these
>disadvantaged.

When something comes up for you I hope you find it useful.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:37:47 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Prop Alert
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Hello Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>, on Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:26:01 -0400
you wrote:

>Nancy,
>So does Dos need water wings or a rubber ducky or an inner tube...maybe a
>snorkel for you JoAnne?

We don't even have swimsuits yet.  Maybe this is a clothing-optional pool.

The rule when I grew up was no toys in the pool.  Don't know if Mister Pool
Guard has that same rule or not.

>Hey this list is getting longer...I've added a book I'm reading called
>Longing for Darkness Tara and the Black Madonna which I'll be glad to
>share...I'm getting the hang of this myth thing thanks to Charles's trees,
>Anita and the ants dants...
>
>Whopee!
>Judith getting her toes wet

Look out for those sharks who think they have teeth, your feet could get
all gummy.

-j

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:59:45 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
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>Hello Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>, on Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:26:01 -0400
>you wrote:
>
>>Nancy,
>>So does Dos need water wings or a rubber ducky or an inner tube...maybe a
>>snorkel for you JoAnne?
>
>We don't even have swimsuits yet.  Maybe this is a clothing-optional pool.

I'll check with costumes...tho the script does say clothing
optional...better for the budget
>
>The rule when I grew up was no toys in the pool.  Don't know if Mister Pool
>Guard has that same rule or not.

I don't think that part has been cast yet so as far as I know you can do
what you wish...wing it:-)
>
>>Hey this list is getting longer...I've added a book I'm reading called
>>Longing for Darkness Tara and the Black Madonna which I'll be glad to
>>share...I'm getting the hang of this myth thing thanks to Charles's trees,
>>Anita and the ants dants...
>>
>>Whopee!
>>Judith getting her toes wet
>
>Look out for those sharks who think they have teeth, your feet could get
>all gummy.

tks...
Judith

>
>-j
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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Date:         Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:13:14 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      just me and my mom
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Just Me and My Mom
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Holding on firmly to the breast of this woman
this heartbeat that I have known since forever
and seeing her eyes and eyes of other women, hovering
others speaking with different accents and rhythms
 yet I feel at home, at peace
well-being is mine.

A man=92s voice and face that lays claim
to this woman that nurses me
that holds me close
that speaks to me
she turns her eyes from me =

leaving me motherless
leaving me behind her =

as she falls under a love spell
of her own creation
the love spell of the dangerous
the dark and the foreign.

Robert Longpr=E9     =A9     1998-07-17

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Date:         Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:13:20 -0600
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From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      are you my mother?
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Are You My Mother?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

A woman-child only sixteen
not yet married six months
gave birth to a boy-child
is now a mother.

Holding babe to breast and the milk of life =

while in a foreign place exiled from family
into a riotous place tangled and tumultuous
being mothered and smothered in
sweaty and musky closeness
is now, again, a child.

A woman-child, a mother-child
pregnant again.

And he left her for military service
for the glamour of the big gun
left her in his mother=92s care
alone in the crowd
to give birth to yet another son.

And he returned to a hero=92s welcome
returned to act the man, the husband
and she moved in with him
and is now, wife-child.

And who is mother while this woman-child
this mother-child, this wife-child
has eyes and focus on this hero?

And the first born wanders lost and frightened
through the world of the feminine
asking
=93Are you my mother?=94

Robert Longpr=E9     =A9     1998-07-17

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Date:         Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:51:30 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: are you my father?
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Who are you?

Are you then my father,
he who stands so tall,
he of so much caring,
he who must not fall?

CAN you be my father?
Can you be at all?
Can you move His mountains?
Can you free them all?

Tall and craggy stranger
Promising it all,
Dast you be my father?
Shadow of the Fall.

Standing in the noonday sun
Shadow-casting far,
Measure then your shadow
Where his lay of yore.

Etched upon the bloody plain
Pricked by every sage
Brow so little furrowed
To tell such inner rage.

Rage at expectations
From uncounted source.
The butcher and the baker
The candle-dipper=92s wife.

Their tapers burning brightly
through a thousand nights
Votives casting shadows
Just outside the light.

Shadows of the guttered flames
A billion now long gone
Rose on yestermorning
Their robes of glory don.


All down through the ages
March from every nation
To our expectations
Our blooded expectations...


I do not want a father
Nor yet another son.
My tears are barely drying
Crusting where they run.

The well cannot replentish
Now or ever more
Bitter darkening water
Where Charon dips his oar.

Repose upon that greening sward,
Beside that fateful stream.
And cast your melody of words
Where forest creatures dream.

I may every join you
Should time and space allow
Our lyres to sing together
O=92er war torn fields enow.




(c) Nancy Smith     7-20-98

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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:25:00 -0500
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: are you my father?
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JoAnne wrote earlier:

"When something comes up for you I hope you find it useful."

I bow to this feelingfullness. A perfected response.

***

Robert, Nancy...two incredible tellings from the core. If I might give you
in gratitude the following bit of an ending from long ago.

***

'Tis time; descend; be stone no more; approach;
Strike all that look upon with marvel. Come;
I'll fill your grave up! Stir; nay, come away!
Bequeath to death your numbness, for from him
Dear life redeems you. You perceive she stirs:
Start not! Her actions shall be holy as you hear
my spell is lawful. Do not shun her
Until you see her die again; for then
You kill her double. Nay, present your hand.
When she was young, you woo'd her; now, in age,
Is she become the suitor?

O, she's warm!
If this be magic, let it be an art
Lawful as eating.

She embraces him.

She hangs about his neck. If she pertain to life,
let her speak too.

Ay, and make it manifest where she has liv'd,
Or how stol'n from the dead

That she is living. Were it but told you,
you should be hooted at Like an old tale;
but it appears she lives, Though yet she speak not.
Mark a little while.
Please you to interpose, fair madam, kneel,
And pray your mother's blessing. - Turn, good
lady; Our Perdita is found.

You Gods, look down,
And from sacred vials pour your graces
Upon my daughter's head! Tell me, mine own,
Where hast though been preserv'd? where liv'd?
how found
Thy father's court? For thou shalt  hear that I,
Knowing by Paulina that theoracle
Gave hope thou wast in being, have preserv'd
Myself to see the issue.

There's time enough for that,
Lest they desire, upon this push, to trouble
Your joys with like relation. Go together,
You precious winners all; your exultation
Partake to every one. I, an old turtle,
Will wing me to some wither'd bough, and there
My mate, that's never to be found again,
lament till I am lost.

O, Peace, Paulina!
Thou shouldst a husband take by my consent,
As I by thine wife. This is a match,
And made between's by vows. Thou hast
found mine;
But how, is to be question'd; for I saw her,
As I thought, dead; and have (in vain) said many
A prayer upon her grave. I'll seek far
(For him, I partly know his mind) to find thee
An hnourable husband. - Come Camillo,
And take her by the hand; whose worth and
honesty Is richly noted, and here justified
By us, a pair of kings - Let's from this place -
What! look upon my brother. Both your pardons,
That e'er I put between your holy looks
My ill suspicion. This' your son-in-law,
And son unto the King, whom heavens directing,
Is troth-plight to your daughter, Good Paulina,
Lead us from hence where we may leisurely
Each one demand, and answer to his part
Perform'd in this wide gap of time since first
we were disserv'd. Hastily lead away.

Wm Shakespeare _The Winter's Tale_

***

HooN

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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:04:40 -0700
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From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      birth of a son
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Walter, Friends:

David Trevor Orford Cameron weighed into the world at 7lb 10 oz yesterday.
Both mother and child are in good condition, resting up in hospital for
another day.

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:07:16 -0400
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From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
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Charles,

Blessings to David Trevor Orford Cameron...and to all of the family

Judith joyfully

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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:21:39 -0400
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From:         Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Subject:      Re: birth of a son
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At 11:04 AM 7/23/98 -0700, Charles wrote:
>Walter, Friends:
>
>David Trevor Orford Cameron weighed into the world at 7lb 10 oz yesterday.
>Both mother and child are in good condition, resting up in hospital for
>another day.

Such a pure burst of pleasure I felt reading this news!  I'm glad you
shared it here, it brightened a frenzied day for me and transformed my
briefly but badly warped perspective on what truly matters in this life.

bright blessings to you and yours,

Marie
remembering the long ago birth of a daughter, with joy and gratitude

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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:43:35 GMT
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From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: birth of a son
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Charles,

Congratulations Charles and Anne!   David, welcome to the world, and to
Emlyn, a special hello on the arrival of his brother.

Love to you all,


Walter

>David Trevor Orford Cameron weighed into the world at 7lb 10 oz yesterday.
>Both mother and child are in good condition, resting up in hospital for
>another day.

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:14:59 -0400
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From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: birth of a son
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Dear Charles,

>David Trevor Orford Cameron weighed into the world at 7lb 10 oz yesterday.
>Both mother and child are in good condition, resting up in hospital for
>another day.

How wonderful!   Welcome to David.+++

I wish you and your family all the love and wonder a new baby can bring.

Love,

Julienne

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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1998 03:29:59 +0100
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From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: birth of a son
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Charles,

I had just the previous day been thinking that your baby must be about due,
and then you posted your happy news! New life, new hope, always a miracle,
and a time to think about the value of all life.

My congratulations to you and your wife, Charles; may David Trevor Orford
be loved and blessed in life.

all the best,

Simon

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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:09:33 -0400
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From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: birth of a son
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Charles,

Major cosmic creations and essential manifestations!

I'm happy for you and yours. :-)

Praying for blessings and in highest hopes that your son's wishes will some
day become true,

hoon

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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:44:49 GMT
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From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: birth of a son
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Congratulations, Charles, on the new love in your life.

-JoAnne

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Date:         Sun, 26 Jul 1998 13:21:54 -0500
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Warmest wishes for David--and for mama and papa! May you bring delight
and insight to one another in your journey together. He's a pretty lucky
little guy to have chosen someone like you as papa--the gifts of spirit
and wonder and story that you have to offer are gifts of magic for a
child.  All the best--susan

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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:17:11 -0400
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From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: birth of a son

On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:04:40 -0700, Charles Cameron  wrote:

>Walter, Friends:
>
>David Trevor Orford Cameron weighed into the world at 7lb 10 oz yesterday.
>Both mother and child are in good condition, resting up in hospital for
>another day.
>
>Best wishes,
>
  Congratulations to Copper Woman and Copper Man on their new penny.
            Best wishes for a happy an successful future to all.
                                       Nancy
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
>*
>hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
>playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>
>

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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1998 06:03:39 -0700
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Charles

                      Congratulations!!!!!!!


                                py& l
                          hap@*@o ve
                         @@@@@@@@
                             &@@&@&
                            ~~~~~~
                             ~~~~~
                              ~~~~
                              *****

meeseo          ~.*
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:14:37 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: birth of a son
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Charles,

> David Trevor Orford Cameron weighed into the world at 7lb 10 oz yesterday.
> Both mother and child are in good condition, resting up in hospital for
> another day.

I realise that this is a few days late, but the feeling of joy over the
event is real.  As one who has celebrated new birth recently (grandson
Hunter Robert Scheck), I am still filled with the wonder that is a new
child and the connection that I personally feel as a father and
grandfather with the birth of a boy ... immortality in a fashion.

I hope that we prepare this place, this Earth, for the generations that
follow.  A moral and parental responsibility for the generations that
follow.  Now if we could but give them the best inheritance, the gift of
unconditional love.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:12:19 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: are you my father?
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Nancy,

Thank you for the poetic symmetry.  I've been away for some time since
posting the two *mother* poems.  It looks as though almost everyone is
also taking time from participation in PSYBER-L here in the dead-dog
days of summer.

I hear the tragic loss of father, of the masculine, and I mourn with
you.

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:12:27 -0600
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: are you my father?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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HooN,

A wonderous response of the father to the daughter and to Nancy's poem.
I find it so amazing that you so often find the words to reply from the
treasury of literature that has been handed down to us.  I have read
much but do not have the easy command to bring the words back with your
facile manner.

merci mon vieux

Robert

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1998 16:53:24 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: are you my password?

Hello everybody.  I downloaded Netscape and it looks very strange over
  there.  Everything was Blue, as if I'd never read any posts at all.  I had to
  take the long way home to get here.  Puff.
     Yesterday was my birthday and figuring that one must make one's own
  joy, I got up at 5 and turned on my customized dance tape.
    I brought back to songs:
       one for David Trevor:

    See the shepards kneeling before him.
    See the kings on bended knee.
    See the mother praising his father.
    See the blessed infant sleep.

    One small child in a land of a thousand.
    One small dream in a people of light.
    One small hand reaching to starlight.
    One small savior of light.
    One small savior of light.
    One small savior of light.

    (Nathan says that narcissistic difficulties are cause by insufficient cows
  and sheep bending down, so maybe this will safe guard.)

  And one to welcome Simon back:


   England swings like a pendulum do.
   Bobbies on bicyles two by two.
   West Minster Abbey, the tower of Big Ben,
   Rosie red cheeks of the little children.

   If you huff and puff  and you save enough money
   Have to take your family on a trip,
   A trip across the sea.
   I'll tell you where to to go.
   Go to England do.
   Take a tip,
   Before you take your trip.

   England swings....

   Moma's old pajamas,
   Your Papa's mustache.
   Falling out the window sil,
   Frolic in the grass.
   Trying to mock the way they talk,
   Fun but al in vail.
   Gaping at the dapper men with topper hats and canes.

   England swings...

  (Oh, come On, you guys!  You can't make me believe that mottley dogerel
  works as a song!  No you can't.)



On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:12:19 -0600, Robert Longpre  wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>I hear the tragic loss of father, of the masculine, and I mourn with
>you.
>
>Robert

    Yes, Robert.  I guess I was working up to my birthday and feeling that n
  noone had ever loved or understood me as well as my father.  Isn't it odd?
  An analyst diagnosed him as having a Narcisistic Character disorder.
  Envy perhaps?
    Thanks for your resonance.

  Hoon,
     You sent me scurrying of to Mr. Lamb.  I still have only a glimmer of your
  always well-tuned means.  It's simmering away in a red vas back at the lab.

  Judith and JoJo,
     Dos has learned to swim during the haitus.  He isn't quit sure he wants
  to go to the Styx with us however. He is still feeling pretty abashed to have
  discovered that he was running around with his twinky hanging out in front
  of  everybody.   I feel strongly that we need to take
  day-glow orange life jackets for all, having once seen the white, silently
  screaming  face of my eldest beneath the dark waters of another stream.
     I guess that means another mule.  Won't you need an assistand mule
  driver to help with them all?

     Love to all,

     Nancy
     Another year older but richer for your company

>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:33:44 -0400
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Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: are you my password?
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998073116532490@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

M a n y   H a p p y B i r t h d a y s, Nancy!!

Love,

Julienne

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:18:36 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: are you my password?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey, Nance...many happy returns...meanwhile synchronicity strikes
again...I've been humming this without the words remembering back to 1964
and standing on a bar singing this will some other equally *high*
fellows...this is a totally happy tune for me...so thanks...

meanwhile out recruiting more mules...looks like I've got costumes too

Judith fresh from a 2 1/2 hr traffic jam no thank you...
>  And one to welcome Simon back:
>
>
>   England swings like a pendulum do.
>   Bobbies on bicyles two by two.
>   West Minster Abbey, the tower of Big Ben,
>   Rosie red cheeks of the little children.
>
>   If you huff and puff  and you save enough money
>   Have to take your family on a trip,
>   A trip across the sea.
>   I'll tell you where to to go.
>   Go to England do.
>   Take a tip,
>   Before you take your trip.
>
>   England swings....
>
>   Moma's old pajamas,
>   Your Papa's mustache.
>   Falling out the window sil,
>   Frolic in the grass.
>   Trying to mock the way they talk,
>   Fun but al in vail.
>   Gaping at the dapper men with topper hats and canes.
>
>   England swings...
>
>  (Oh, come On, you guys!  You can't make me believe that mottley dogerel
>  works as a song!  No you can't.)
>
>
>
>On Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:12:19 -0600, Robert Longpre  wrote:
>
>>Nancy,
>>
>>I hear the tragic loss of father, of the masculine, and I mourn with
>>you.
>>
>>Robert
>
>    Yes, Robert.  I guess I was working up to my birthday and feeling that n
>  noone had ever loved or understood me as well as my father.  Isn't it odd?
>  An analyst diagnosed him as having a Narcisistic Character disorder.
>  Envy perhaps?
>    Thanks for your resonance.
>
>  Hoon,
>     You sent me scurrying of to Mr. Lamb.  I still have only a glimmer of your
>  always well-tuned means.  It's simmering away in a red vas back at the lab.
>
>  Judith and JoJo,
>     Dos has learned to swim during the haitus.  He isn't quit sure he wants
>  to go to the Styx with us however. He is still feeling pretty abashed to have
>  discovered that he was running around with his twinky hanging out in front
>  of  everybody.

is that a prop?

>   I feel strongly that we need to take
>  day-glow orange life jackets for all, having once seen the white, silently
>  screaming  face of my eldest beneath the dark waters of another stream.
>     I guess that means another mule.  Won't you need an assistand mule
>  driver to help with them all?

would help Ms Prop out as she is scouring around for the journey correct
valises...also concerned with how close to the edge the mules go on the
switchbacks...

>
>     Love to all,
>
>     Nancy
>     Another year older but richer for your company

and me also for yours, nancy...:-)
j
>
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
>>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 00:54:07 +0100
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: are you my password?
In-Reply-To:  <v01550101b1e7b833a76b@[207.54.181.26]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks Nancy, and happy birthday. I had a good laugh at the lyrics, trying
to imagine them sung cockney knees-up style by Chas 'n' Dave... (you don't
want to know...)

As for bobbies on bicycles, if a news clip I saw on TV a few days ago is to
believed, they could be set to make a comeback - only these days the bikes
are of the mountain variety... Something to do with cars and vans getting
stuck in traffic jams, I believe. Or maybe someone's just been watching too
much 'Pacific Blue'...

Talking of traffic jams, Judith writes:
>Judith fresh from a 2 1/2 hr traffic jam no thank you...

And... today on the bus, coming into central London over Waterloo Bridge,
we ran into (well, not literally!) a motley gathering of some 150-200
cyclists, complete with police escort, staging what seemed to be a 'rally
protest' of some kind - either that or they took a wrong turn on the Tour
de France...

Simon

PS. Would a cycle repair kit be a good prop, Nancy??



> And one to welcome Simon back:
>
>
>   England swings like a pendulum do.
>   Bobbies on bicyles two by two.
>   West Minster Abbey, the tower of Big Ben,
>   Rosie red cheeks of the little children.
>
>   If you huff and puff  and you save enough money
>   Have to take your family on a trip,
>   A trip across the sea.
>   I'll tell you where to to go.
>   Go to England do.
>   Take a tip,
>   Before you take your trip.
>
>   England swings....
>
>   Moma's old pajamas,
>   Your Papa's mustache.
>   Falling out the window sil,
>   Frolic in the grass.
>   Trying to mock the way they talk,
>   Fun but al in vail.
>   Gaping at the dapper men with topper hats and canes.
>
>   England swings...
>
>  (Oh, come On, you guys!  You can't make me believe that mottley dogerel
>  works as a song!  No you can't.)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:46:37 -0400
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: are you my password?

On Sat, 1 Aug 1998 00:54:07 +0100, Simon G. Trask  wrote:

>Thanks Nancy, and happy birthday. I had a good laugh at the lyrics, trying
>to imagine them sung cockney knees-up style by Chas 'n' Dave... (you don't
>want to know...)
>
 N:  OH, Yes, I DO!!!  Tell all....

>As for bobbies on bicycles, if a news clip I saw on TV a few days ago is to
>believed, they could be set to make a comeback -

  N" We still have 'em in Athens.  Grand Jury's been hearing many grand
  tales of daring do, about how the offices sped up to and tackles preps
  from the saddle.


>
>Talking of traffic jams, Judith writes:
>>Judith fresh from a 2 1/2 hr traffic jam no thank you...
>
>And... today on the bus, coming into central London over Waterloo Bridge,
>we ran into (well, not literally!) a motley gathering of some 150-200
>cyclists, complete with police escort, staging what seemed to be a 'rally
>protest' of some kind - either that or they took a wrong turn on the Tour
>de France...
>
  N: Simon  I've been reading 'cosy mysteries' set in the Cotswold.  Where
  might that be?
>
>PS. Would a cycle repair kit be a good prop, Nancy??

  N: Hmmm...I've got the feeling we're headed into pretty rough terraine and
  better stick with the mules.  Might you know a good black smith who could
  be talked into coming along?  Oh, Jud...do you think an anvil...Hmmm...
  Maybe there's some sort of portable tempory 'shoe kit"...The anvil seems
  a little....hmmm....excessive?>
>
>> And one to welcome Simon back:
>>
>>
>>   England swings like a pendulum do.
>>   Bobbies on bicyles two by two.
>>   West Minster Abbey, the tower of Big Ben,
>>   Rosie red cheeks of the little children.
>>
>>   If you huff and puff  and you save enough money
>>   Have to take your family on a trip,
>>   A trip across the sea.
>>   I'll tell you where to to go.
>>   Go to England do.
>>   Take a tip,
>>   Before you take your trip.
>>
>>   England swings....
>>
>>   Momma's old pajamas,
>>   Your Papa's mustache.
>>   Falling out the window sills,
>>   Frolic in the grass.
>>   Trying to mock the way they talk,
>>   Fun but al in vail.
>>   Gaping at the dapper men with topper hats and canes.
>>
>>   England swings...
>
    Gee, you two, couldn't you help a gal out and correct my typos before
  Charles sees them?  I'm almost as embarrassed as poor Dos.
     Jud, really, he doesn't know where to look with you calling his twinkie
  a 'prop'.  That is what you meant, wasn't it....Not that it needed a...
     OK, OK, Dos.  I'm sorry.  I guess I just got carry away.
     Yes, I know I should be, but I don't think our eagle, Robert, has quite
  enough wing muscle yet.

     Nancy
     Going off to try to make peace in her own household
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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