From LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM Sun May 27 09:27:50 2001
Return-Path: <>
Delivered-To: walterl1@w.pop.ihug.co.nz
Received: (qmail 19705 invoked from network); 26 May 2001 21:38:52 -0000
Received: from mx2-1.ihug.co.nz (HELO mx2.ihug.co.nz) (203.29.168.197)
  by kate.ihug.co.nz with SMTP; 26 May 2001 21:38:52 -0000
Received: from home.ease.lsoft.com [209.119.0.9] 
	by mx2.ihug.co.nz with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian))
	id 153li0-00008i-00; Sun, 27 May 2001 09:34:53 +1200
Received: from home (home.ease.lsoft.com) by home.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.FF6D1D69@home.ease.lsoft.com>; Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:50 -0400
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 17:27:50 -0400
From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8d)"              <LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: File: "PSYBER-L LOG9803"
To: Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Message-Id: <E153li0-00008i-00@mx2.ihug.co.nz>
X-Rcpt-To: walter@psybernet.co.nz

=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:52:23 +0200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Sacred and silence
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello Psyberbions,

Sorry, I mean  Psyberians.  I 'm  just reading  W.E. Bion's  Cogitations,
hence  my miswriting.  If  someone haven't   heard - he was an  English
psychoanalyst  and  group  therapist, born in India.
   Walter , you wrote that  "the silence for me has been uncomfortable".
For me, too. I  thought, that even you  have  deserted  the list.  Before
my leaving for Greece this  was  a very lively place, after returning -
silent  and  empty.  I wondered  what had  happened.  Where are all people ,
and why they don't write?  Especially   the Psyber- women  have fallen
silent. Hoon has remarked  the same,  and  don't  know " where to  hang his
virtual  anima projection".  It  grieves me. Is this  so sacred a place,
that  the women  don't dare to write. I must have been  an heretic in my
former life, because  I  feel uncomfortable in the sacred places, such as
churches and temples  etc. I  feel happy in  the profane places -  in  the
kitchens, bed rooms and market places.
     I don't know, if this  is pertinent, but just before my leaving for
Greece, I saw a dream about  the Psyber-list. In  the dream Charles  scolded
me for  being too nasty to Julienne. I responded by  saying, that I'm
feeling ashamed of my bad behaviour, but don't you understand that it
(behaviour) arises from   Dolores' and Wilbur's departure. I was a true
dream.
      HooN , you supposed that I'm busy writing and living.  Not at all!  I'
m  busy  running out  (Latin: excurrere) through  the world literature with
intention to find  literary dreams. I'm making lectures about them. I began
about  a month ago from the  first  known i.e. written dream. It was  an
evil  dream of Gilgamesh, written circa 4000 years ago.  But  every little
while I'm  deviating  from the  way. Bion is  one of my deviations, because
he was Samuel Beckett's therapist. And  now  I'm searching  for Cardano's
dream journals. He was a Renaissance man from Milanese, a psychian,
philosopher, astrologer and  interpreter of dreams. I  would like to know
what kind of dreams this Renaissance man saw.
Best wishes to all
Anita

 The  first  written dream was this:
     " Last night, Mother, I saw a dream.
      There was a star in the heavens,
       Like  a shooting star of Anu it fell on me.
       I tried to lift it,  too much for me.
       I tried to move it; I could not move it."

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:52:25 +0200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: the lady with the mystic smile
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

HooN, and all

For refresment of mind Haiku error messages.

Cheers Anita


----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Salon (http://www.salon1999.com/), has announced the winners of their
"Haiku Error Messages" contest.  Here are the winners and those of
 honorable mention:

                            Three things are certain:
                            Death, taxes, and lost data.
                            Guess which has occurred.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Everything is gone;
                            Your life's work has been destroyed.
                            Squeeze trigger (yes/no)?
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Windows NT crashed.
                            I am the Blue Screen of Death.
                            No one hears your screams.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Seeing my great fault
                            Through darkening blue windows
                            I begin again
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            The code was willing,
                            It considered your request,
                            But the chips were weak.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Printer not ready.
                            Could be a fatal error.
                            Have a pen handy?
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            A file that big?
                            It might be very useful.
                            But now it is gone.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Errors have occurred.
                            We won't tell you where or why.
                            Lazy programmers.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Server's poor response
                            Not quick enough for browser.
                            Timed out, plum blossom.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Chaos reigns within.
                            Reflect, repent, and reboot.
                            Order shall return.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Login incorrect.
                            Only perfect spellers may
                            enter this system.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            This site has been moved.
                            We'd tell you where, but then we'd
                            have to delete you.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            wind catches lily
                            scatt'ring petals to the wind:
                            segmentation fault
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            ABORTED effort:
                            Close all that you have.
                            You ask way too much.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            First snow, then silence.
                            This thousand dollar screen dies
                            so beautifully.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            With searching comes loss
                            and the presence of absence:
                            "My Novel" not found.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            The Tao that is seen
                            Is not the true Tao, until
                            You bring fresh toner.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            The Web site you seek
                            cannot be located but
                            endless others exist
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Stay the patient course
                            Of little worth is your ire
                            The network is down
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            A crash reduces
                            your expensive computer
                            to a simple stone.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            There is a chasm
                            of carbon and silicon
                            the software can't bridge
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Yesterday it worked
                            Today it is not working
                            Windows is like that
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            To have no errors
                            Would be life without meaning
                            No struggle, no joy
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            You step in the stream,
                            but the water has moved on.
                            This page is not here.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            No keyboard present
                            Hit F1 to continue
                            Zen engineering?
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Hal, open the file
                            Hal, open the damn file, Hal
                            open the, please Hal
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Out of memory.
                            We wish to hold the whole sky,
                            But we never will.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Having been erased,
                            The document you're seeking
                            Must now be retyped.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            The ten thousand things
                            How long do any persist?
                            Netscape, too, has gone.
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Rather than a beep
                            Or a rude error message,
                            These words: "File not found."
                            - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            Serious error.
                            All shortcuts have disappeared.
                            Screen. Mind. Both are blank.




>

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:16:59 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Sacred and silence
In-Reply-To:  <199803010952.LAA19164@walrus.megabaud.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Anita

> I  feel uncomfortable in the sacred places, such as
> churches and temples  etc. I  feel happy in  the profane places -  in  =
the
> kitchens, bed rooms and market places.

I love coffee shops, I even know a few where i can
surreptitiously plug in my laptop, cause the battery does not
work.  Most of all I love my little house in the hills, where I
sit and cyberspace while looking at the bush and the mountain and
watch the weather. I have been there all this weekend.

In our house in town we have a big kitchen.  That is where we eat
and where many conversations take place into the night. =20

Sacred is not the right word for any of this ... nor for what
psyber-L is, can be.  Yet it captures something ... I think the
thing i value , and which needs to be present in the spaces on
the net that allow us to go deeper is the sort of feeling that is
present in my counselling room, or when i run groups in the group
room.  I wonder if in your writing there is something similar?
Is a book more than the words on the paper?  Do you go into some
mental space that has its own life, and containment? =20

~~~

No I have not abandoned psyber-L.  It is summer here and I
usually go quiet during this time.  This year there is especially
a lot on ...

And ... Kate & I are planning to get married.  Some time in the
next 12 months. =20


>       HooN , you supposed that I'm busy writing and living.  Not at =
all!  I'
> m  busy  running out  (Latin: excurrere) through  the world literature =
with
> intention to find  literary dreams. I'm making lectures about them. I =
began
> about  a month ago from the  first  known i.e. written dream. It was  =
an
> evil  dream of Gilgamesh, written circa 4000 years ago.  But  every =
little
> while I'm  deviating  from the  way. Bion is  one of my deviations, =
because
> he was Samuel Beckett's therapist. And  now  I'm searching  for =
Cardano's
> dream journals. He was a Renaissance man from Milanese, a psychian,
> philosopher, astrologer and  interpreter of dreams. I  would like to =
know
> what kind of dreams this Renaissance man saw.
> Best wishes to all
> Anita
>=20
>  The  first  written dream was this:
>      " Last night, Mother, I saw a dream.
>       There was a star in the heavens,
>        Like  a shooting star of Anu it fell on me.
>        I tried to lift it,  too much for me.
>        I tried to move it; I could not move it."


Anita,  it sounds like living and writing to me.  I have a soft
spot for Bion.  Reminds me of the time we were discussing Jung's
book Aion, and we had a message called Aion and Bion.  Funny I
thought.  As are the haikus! =20



Walter

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:42:23 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sacred and silence
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Anita, At 11:52 AM 3/1/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Hello Psyberbions,
>
>Sorry, I mean  Psyberians.  I 'm  just reading  W.E. Bion's  Cogitations,
>hence  my miswriting.  If  someone haven't   heard - he was an  English
>psychoanalyst  and  group  therapist, born in India.
>   Walter , you wrote that  "the silence for me has been uncomfortable".
>For me, too. I  thought, that even you  have  deserted  the list.  Before
>my leaving for Greece this  was  a very lively place, after returning -
>silent  and  empty.  I wondered  what had  happened.  Where are all people ,
>and why they don't write?  Especially   the Psyber- women  have fallen
>silent. Hoon has remarked  the same,  and  don't  know " where to  hang his
>virtual  anima projection".

Maybe it's hard and unpleasant and thankless to be an anima-hook.  Maybe we
don't want stuff hanging on us.  That would be a reason not to want to be
seen in the "sacred spaces" of masculinist theology, where the feminine is
used as a hook on which to hang one's anima.

Whether this space has turned itself into that kind of space I'm not sure.
I'm glad you spoke up, because I didn't want to get into yet another gender
war, yet I felt somewhat uncomfortable, and I think that might have been a
reason.  I'm worried that the past will rise again (as it did when Julienne
and I entered the space) and that it will have the same effects and still
not resolve anything.

>It  grieves me. Is this  so sacred a place,
>that  the women  don't dare to write. I must have been  an heretic in my
>former life, because  I  feel uncomfortable in the sacred places, such as
>churches and temples  etc. I  feel happy in  the profane places -  in  the
>kitchens, bed rooms and market places.
>     I don't know, if this  is pertinent, but just before my leaving for
>Greece, I saw a dream about  the Psyber-list. In  the dream Charles  scolded
>me for  being too nasty to Julienne. I responded by  saying, that I'm
>feeling ashamed of my bad behaviour, but don't you understand that it
>(behaviour) arises from   Dolores' and Wilbur's departure. I was a true
>dream.

That's interesting.  Just before you left I wrote something which I was
hoping could encourage you and Julienne to heal your rift, but I think you
were actually gone by the time it went on the list.  I didn't see a
response, anyway, and I feel you would have responded.

I had a feeling that you wanted to have some kind of "last word" on the
Julienne subject before you left temporarily, and I can respect that
considering what you say above about Dolores' and Wilbur's departures.  Are
you now willing to discuss it some more?  Is Julienne?

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:25:01 +0000
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Per Ardua Ad Astra & The Mona Lisa Farts.
In-Reply-To:  <199803010952.LAA19170@walrus.megabaud.fi>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I am sad, sad because the time has come for me to grow up. Sad because I am
no longer me, glad too in a way. When I was nothing but pain, when every
nerve and sinew screamed out, raw and scraped and laid bare from the inside
out, in all that pain, somehow there was a long needed, long awaited rebirth.
I placed new layers on the scraped and bleeding endings of my being, I am
not me anymore, just bits of me that were, and new layers of who I really was.
I have begun some sort of healing.
I feel, though its a cliche, it is a good one, like a phoenix. I am reborn
now, without the taint of pretence that I had become, all the disease that
weighed me down has been burnt away. I feel my wings tense, the wet
feathers drying on the wind, itching to try them, poised to take flight
into something new and exciting. I am enfused with new purpose, I feel as
though my time has come to fly and I can do anything. I am going to be,
glorious and golden, I am going to be more, than I ever dreamed and I am
going to shine, like some glorious golden phoenix from all those dull and
choking ashes and go meet the dawn I make for myself.

Finally I have courage, and purpose, and on this list I come full circle, I
see why I came here now, what there was here for me to learn. I think, I
have stopped learning on here, but this is familiar pasture, a nice place
to land for a while. A nice place to let your wings grow.

Other people I realised, cannot help you heal, it has to come from you. Has
to be there in you, you have to want it, you have to want to say finally,
enough. I am more than this and start to fight back. It's no good waiting
for a helping hand, the first hand to help you has to be your own, and
sometimes we have to sink so low, and wallow so deeply the only way is up.
The only way is by clawing yourself slowly up from the pit you have dug
yourself. Maybe there will be a hand on the way, but I think you have to
realise, it is the need for you to rely on yourself, for your hands to do
the bleeding, for your fingernails to be torn as you rake through that
mire, that counts, that is it's own reward, it is you, and only you that
gets you there.

Took me 34 years before I learnt to look up, to see the stars, and know
they were within my grasp as I begin to claw my way upwards finally and see
some glimmer of a sky. Per Ardua Ad Astra as our airforce says.

I hope I don't relapse and fall right back down again, I'd hate to get my
feathers dirty now I've preened them. Somehow, this time I don't think I will.

Dolores

Btw..always seemed to me, the Mona Lisa had the kind of smile where she'd
just farted and nobody else suspected, and she silently smiled knowing
she'd got away with it, at the same time without giving the game away by
overtly giggling.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:11:42 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Per Ardua Ad Astra & Dolores
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

 Dolores

I read your posts including your return message and this one.
Because I recently subscribed to Psyber-L,
     I don't know what happened to you.

But I feel that you are still crying.
Of course it might be my misunderstanding.

>I am sad, sad because the time has come for me to grow >up. Sad
because I am no longer me, glad too in a way. >When I was nothing but
pain, when every nerve and >sinew screamed out, raw and scraped and
laid bare from >the inside out, in all that pain, somehow there was a
>long needed, long awaited rebirth.

 Everyone don't undergo such a pain, severely.
... Only sensitive and wounded person feels it bitterly.

I think your inner mind is still sad.
Of course, you might be comfortable for a moment.
but, it's only for a moment.

>Other people I realised, cannot help you heal, it has >to come from
you.
>Has to be there in you, you have to want it, you have >to want to say
finally, enough.

In a way, I agree with you.
In order to be freed from inner shadow--sorrow, despair, pain, we must
have our love for ourselves and longing for the emancipation from the
shadow.

However, That's not enough.
At the same time, we need another's helping hand.
it can be persons around you, this place(Psyber-L), God, books, or
things.(As you know).

Maybe, by telling like this, we escape from loneliness and solitude,
and finally, we can overcome it.

Somebody is listening to what you are saying.
Somebody feels your sorrow, pain and wants to heal it.

>I hope I don't relapse and fall right back down again, >I'd hate to
get my feathers dirty now I've preened >them. Somehow, this time I
don't think I will.

I believe you will never relapse and fall right back down again.
I am watching you flying.

Meeseo
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:36:24 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: online sites opening on the sacred
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter writes:

> You must be in the UK?  I hope the transition went well.  Hard
> to notice it in cyberspace, it is as if you have not moved at all!

It's been a case of living in interesting times, Walter.  We decided to
come to Britain because my wife Annie very much wanted to, has wanted to
for years in fact, and the survival of our marriage seemed to demand my
paying *real* attention to her wishes.  Well, guess what?  We arrived here,
and she almost immediately wanted to go back to Southern California.
Partly, my having been willing to uproot for her sake, the proof of which
consisted in our arrival at London Airport, gave her the confidence in me
that she needed.  Partly, the weather was terrible for her arthritis,
something she had completely overlooked.  And so on.  Result: not two days
into our visit here, we knew we were going home.  From my POV that's fine,
altogether fine -- my contacts are in LA, California is the center for the
computer game industry, and so on.  And I love the place, enjoy it *far*
more than England.  Managed to sort out some legal problems while here, saw
my mother, sister, a nephew and so on -- and my old college, Christ Church,
some of whose members apparently founded your city a while back -- so the
trip was far from fruitless: but the *main* benefit was that Annie now
*knows* LA is home, it isn't somewhere over the horizon.  So we return to
LA this Wednesday, and will have to buy a new fridge, TV, bookshelves...
and find a place to put them.

As to the "hard to notice" part -- I found that signing on to a local ISP
allowed me to collect and send mail from my US address without a hiccup!
Travel globally, post locally, or something to that effect <grin>.

*

About sacred spaces...

I had written:

> But the whole question of what it takes to create an "opening" on
> the sacred comes up.  ... Archetypal patterns are important, but I
> suspect you need to have sequence and some kind of "build" over
> time, too...

and you commented:

> You are onto it.

and

> I like what you say about the "build" over time.

Questions of timing and sequence -- as in a "ritual build up" which leads
to some kind of a transformative breakthrough -- are going to have two very
different aspects in cyberspace, as they do in religion.  On the one hand,
you have the temple or cathedral which is a static location, and on the
other you have the liturgy or ritual, which is a process rather than a
space, and hence sequential.  Of course, the two things tend to blend: the
cathedral may well be designed so that *walking through it* -- or even
glancing around it -- will mimic the structure of the ritual.

Compare this with "psyberspace".  A web page, I'd suggest, is like a
cathedral: it is static, a "structure", "left there on the web" for whoever
may come by to visit, and its usefulness as a "means to transcendence" --
what the web architect needs to accomplish if the website is to act as a
sacred space rather than as a sacred repository, so to speak -- may depend
on its structure mimicking a transformative process of some kind.

A mailing list is more like a therapy session or liturgy, in that it is
inherently sequential.

Both may require archetypal "content" to be effective, perhaps -- though as
Anita and yourself have pointed out, "the sacred" is a strange catchword
which tends to tilt things towards the overtly "spiritual", and thus often
*away* from the numinous instead of towards it.  For what it's worth, it
seems to me that "hearth" and "bed" are both "sacred" in the most important
sense of the word, and that "church" may not be -- witness the beautiful
story of the Baal Shem Tov entering a synagogue and leaving it almost
immediately, saying there were so many dead prayers in there he could
hardly breathe...

In any case, understanding the transformative possibilities of cyberspace
would seem to require understanding both "structures" and "processes", and
making analogies between religious and cyber structures and religious and
cyber processes.  Both approaches interest me...

> This might not be an idea that promotes the "sacred" but it could
> create a sense of belonging, containment, atmosphere, purpose,
> connection, respect, authenticity, a circle.

All parts of what Alexander would call the "gradient of intimacy" which
leads to the sacred...

*

About Glass Bead Games...

> Hipbone has a page called Invitation to Play ... can I connect
> there with others who istantly want to play?  That would be
> good.  Play via email.

Not yet.  At the moment, you can email me asking to be put in contact with
others who email me, but that's a laborious process.  But I'm hoping that a
software publisher will be putting together some interactive software which
will allow web-based instant play...

If this project doesn't fall through, it should also help us pay the rent
-- so far, I've "invested" three years in HipBone without reaching the
"point of sale".

> I like the title Game Master that they use in CoreWave, apart
> from its masculine overtones.

My only problem with it is that in the context of the Glass Bead Game, and
specifically in the context of bringing a variety of Glass Bead Game
derived games into public consciousness, there is going to be a delicate
moment when the heirs of the Hermann Hesse estate either "approve" or
"disapprove" of what we are up to.  They are very sensitive on such issues,
don't much like what has happened so far when Hesse's books (Siddhartha,
Steppenwolf) have been turned into films, and are quite wealthy enough not
to be "bought" -- more power to 'em!  So I'm on a gentle crusade to ensure
that the materials they eventually see are "worthy" representations of
Hesse, engaging in a slow diplomatic dance via a Hesse scholar of my
acquaintance to present our various games as an enhancement to, rather than
a detriment to, Hesse's reputation.  In *that particular context*, the term
"Game Master" could be an embarassment, since apart from its plain and
simple sense it is also a direct translation of Hesse's term "Magister
Ludi" -- a term which connotes the highest level of scholarship and
aesthetic brilliance.  In fact the only example we have of someone whom
Hesse himself clearly considered a "Magister Ludi" is his friend Thomas
Mann, who figures in the novel as the Magister Thomas von der Trave.

So for purely diplomatic reasons, I really wish we could reserve the title
for a time when our games have Nobel-class players...

Nothing against CoreWave's game in all this, just a sense that the title
could sound presumptuous to the family -- something I'm keen to avoid.

Best,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://home.earthlink.net/~hipbone/
playable variants on Hermann Hesse's Glass Bead Game

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:41:05 +0200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Sacred and silence
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

JoAnne  and  Psyberians,

At 11:52 AM 3/1/98 +0200,   JoAnne  wrote
>Maybe it's hard and unpleasant and thankless to be an anima-hook.  Maybe we
>don't want stuff hanging on us.  That would be a reason not to want to be
>seen in the "sacred spaces" of masculinist theology, where the feminine is
>used as a hook on which to hang one's anima.

Hmmm,  is  it really  so hard  and  unpleasant  to be  an anima-hook in  the
virtual reality?   I   don't  know. I only know  that  the Psyber-list
without  the  women  words is  somehow  soulless and emotionless.  Empty. It
was  delight,  that  Dolores  wrote  after a long  time,  I enjoyed her
interpretation of Mona  Lisa's  smile.  But  I   miss Marie's and  Susan's
words. too.

JoAnne wrote:
>I had a feeling that you wanted to have some kind of "last word" on the
>Julienne subject before you left temporarily, and I can respect that
>considering what you say above about Dolores' and Wilbur's departures.  Are
>you now willing to discuss it some more?  Is Julienne?

To my mind  "The  Julienne subject"  - what an odd  expression  -  is  now
out of point. I  got  angry  with her,  when  Wilbur left, but  it was
temporary, not everlasting anger. I  felt  sympathy for Julienne , when I
read in  the archives  her post, in  which she  told about her cats and
father's death. The point is, that  Wilbur was a very good hook to  my
puerile, aggressive warrior-animus. Somehow he  reminded my father. That's
why he was  so important to me. Fortunately, I have many  animi. One of them
is a  poet,  the second  a trickster- vagabond, the  third  a  wise guide,
the  forth   Don Juan  etc.  And surely I'm projecting  all my
animus-figures onto  this list's men. I  only  hope, that they  don't
collapse under the  weight of my projections.

Julienne, You ask if  you may forward the Haikus to your list. I don't own
copyrights,  I  picked up  Haikus from another list  without asking  a
permission. Maybe  you can do the same, if you mention the source: Salon(
http://www.salon1999.com/).

Best wishes to all
Anita




At 14:42 1998-03-01 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi Anita, At 11:52 AM 3/1/98 +0200, you wrote:
>>Hello Psyberbions,
>>
>>Sorry, I mean  Psyberians.  I 'm  just reading  W.E. Bion's  Cogitations,
>>hence  my miswriting.  If  someone haven't   heard - he was an  English
>>psychoanalyst  and  group  therapist, born in India.
>>   Walter , you wrote that  "the silence for me has been uncomfortable".
>>For me, too. I  thought, that even you  have  deserted  the list.  Before
>>my leaving for Greece this  was  a very lively place, after returning -
>>silent  and  empty.  I wondered  what had  happened.  Where are all people ,
>>and why they don't write?  Especially   the Psyber- women  have fallen
>>silent. Hoon has remarked  the same,  and  don't  know " where to  hang his
>>virtual  anima projection".
>
>Maybe it's hard and unpleasant and thankless to be an anima-hook.  Maybe we
>don't want stuff hanging on us.  That would be a reason not to want to be
>seen in the "sacred spaces" of masculinist theology, where the feminine is
>used as a hook on which to hang one's anima.
>
>Whether this space has turned itself into that kind of space I'm not sure.
>I'm glad you spoke up, because I didn't want to get into yet another gender
>war, yet I felt somewhat uncomfortable, and I think that might have been a
>reason.  I'm worried that the past will rise again (as it did when Julienne
>and I entered the space) and that it will have the same effects and still
>not resolve anything.
>
>>It  grieves me. Is this  so sacred a place,
>>that  the women  don't dare to write. I must have been  an heretic in my
>>former life, because  I  feel uncomfortable in the sacred places, such as
>>churches and temples  etc. I  feel happy in  the profane places -  in  the
>>kitchens, bed rooms and market places.
>>     I don't know, if this  is pertinent, but just before my leaving for
>>Greece, I saw a dream about  the Psyber-list. In  the dream Charles  scolded
>>me for  being too nasty to Julienne. I responded by  saying, that I'm
>>feeling ashamed of my bad behaviour, but don't you understand that it
>>(behaviour) arises from   Dolores' and Wilbur's departure. I was a true
>>dream.
>
>That's interesting.  Just before you left I wrote something which I was
>hoping could encourage you and Julienne to heal your rift, but I think you
>were actually gone by the time it went on the list.  I didn't see a
>response, anyway, and I feel you would have responded.
>
>I had a feeling that you wanted to have some kind of "last word" on the
>Julienne subject before you left temporarily, and I can respect that
>considering what you say above about Dolores' and Wilbur's departures.  Are
>you now willing to discuss it some more?  Is Julienne?
>
>-JoAnne
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>
>

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:24:54 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Sacred and silence
In-Reply-To:  <199803021941.VAA20013@walrus.megabaud.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>, on Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:41:05 +0200,
you wrote:

>JoAnne  and  Psyberians,
>
>At 11:52 AM 3/1/98 +0200,   JoAnne  wrote
>>Maybe it's hard and unpleasant and thankless to be an anima-hook.  Maybe we
>>don't want stuff hanging on us.  That would be a reason not to want to be
>>seen in the "sacred spaces" of masculinist theology, where the feminine is
>>used as a hook on which to hang one's anima.
>
>Hmmm,  is  it really  so hard  and  unpleasant  to be  an anima-hook in  the
>virtual reality?   I   don't  know. I only know  that  the Psyber-list
>without  the  women  words is  somehow  soulless and emotionless.  Empty. It
>was  delight,  that  Dolores  wrote  after a long  time,  I enjoyed her
>interpretation of Mona  Lisa's  smile.  But  I   miss Marie's and  Susan's
>words. too.

Yes, I was happy to see Dolores, enjoyed reading her Mona Lisa thoughts.

Also on reading what I wrote I realize it sounds harsher than I meant,
probably.  I don't believe this list is all "masculinist theology" but I
was instead responding to your thinking about sacred spaces.  That if we
are only a hook, and never the one doing the hanging, that it becomes
wearing.

That it's an agreement we make in this space to allow some things to be
hung on us, and that in return we are allowed to do some hanging of things
in return.  And that if we are silent we are only hooks.

And that that's not all that happens here, just a part of it.

>JoAnne wrote:
>>I had a feeling that you wanted to have some kind of "last word" on the
>>Julienne subject before you left temporarily, and I can respect that
>>considering what you say above about Dolores' and Wilbur's departures.  Are
>>you now willing to discuss it some more?  Is Julienne?
>
>To my mind  "The  Julienne subject"  - what an odd  expression  -  is  now
>out of point. I  got  angry  with her,  when  Wilbur left, but  it was
>temporary, not everlasting anger. I  felt  sympathy for Julienne , when I
>read in  the archives  her post, in  which she  told about her cats and
>father's death.

Anger and then sympathy don't sound like they add up to anything even
remotely settled.  Do you feel settled with Julienne?

Julienne, I hope you don't find this to be "speaking behind your back;" I'm
curious about the interaction here and want any discussion to be where you
can see it.  If you'd rather I not ask Anita I'll drop the subject.

>The point is, that  Wilbur was a very good hook to  my
>puerile, aggressive warrior-animus. Somehow he  reminded my father. That's
>why he was  so important to me. Fortunately, I have many  animi. One of them
>is a  poet,  the second  a trickster- vagabond, the  third  a  wise guide,
>the  forth   Don Juan  etc.  And surely I'm projecting  all my
>animus-figures onto  this list's men. I  only  hope, that they  don't
>collapse under the  weight of my projections.

This is what I'm afraid of, from or for anyone.  I don't want to be only a
hook or only a hanger, or for that to be our entire existence here.  And
that seemed to me to be what eventually was happening, and afterwards there
was not enough energy to look at what got hung up where, or why.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:51:08 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cory Jones <xcjones@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Being a hook for other folks' projections

On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 Anita and JoAnne and Dolores wrote about *being
hooks*, and part of the conversation went as follows . . .

>>>Maybe it's hard and unpleasant and thankless to be an anima-hook.
>Maybe we don't want stuff hanging on us.  That would be a reason not to
want
>to be seen in the "sacred spaces" of masculinist theology, where the
>feminine is used as a hook on which to hang one's anima . . . and that
in return we are allowed to do some hanging of things in return.  And
that if we are silent we are only hooks.

>This is what I'm afraid of, from or for anyone.  I don't want to be
>only a hook or only a hanger, or for that to be our entire existence
here.

This is an issue that keeps coming up in my life, projecting inner
thoughts onto others.  I could relate especially well with that image of
the silent other as a *hook* upon which I could hang my fears or
fantasies.  Reading about the *hooks* in the Psyber-L mail made me
*self-aware* about this issue again.  I can't see any one of the people
writing on this list, yet somehow through reading the texts you've sent
in, I'm developing an image of each one of you in my mind.  And is that a
good or bad thing?

Maybe Its immature of me, but frankly  I like something about
*projecting* images on disembodied voices.  I like to listen to radio
dramas, and just imagine the scenes in my mind.  When I listen to radio,
I imagine the faces of the people I hear talking---and when I see their
real faces in a photograph or on television, I'm always startled.  I
think, that can't be the radio personality I knew!!

I like writing and reading in this e-mail list without having seen any of
the other members in a photograph.  But, just what is going on here?
Must keep exploring . . .

Best regards to all,
Cory.



_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:46:23 +0200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Being a hook for other folks' projections
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello Cory,

At 23:51 1998-03-03 -0800, you wrote:
>I like to listen to radio dramas, and just imagine the scenes in my mind.
I  do just the same as I  read novels.  I  see vivid and  strong mental
images. If I see a cinematization of some novel I have read, I'm  always
very disappointed. The  characters and the places are not all such  I have
"seen".   I think, that  the mind projects quite  automatically i.e.
unconsciously mental images onto the  "word- worlds". It is not good or bad,
or immature.  My mind  simply works in that way. The  mailing-list is  one
of  such  word-worlds. I  have created mental images of  this list's people
on the basis of their writings. Probably  my creations  have  no equivalent
in real life , and  I would be  as disappointed  as in seeing a novel
cinematitazion, if I  saw  someone of the list's members face to face.
     I have  some  experiences of being a  target for  projections.  When I
was younger , it  was very  confusing, because I  was so  unsure of myself .
I  thought that they were right, and I was  wrong. At present it  not so
embarrassing to be a hook on which people hang their mental images. Even
experienced  literary critics do  project their  emotions, opinions  or even
prejudices  onto my novels. Not so bad, I think,  because I do just the
same as I read their writings.

Best wishes
Anita

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:07:43 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Being a hook for other folks' projections
In-Reply-To:  <19980303.235112.2830.2.xcjones@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Cory Jones <xcjones@JUNO.COM>, on Tue, 3 Mar 1998 23:51:08 -0800, you
wrote:

>On Tue, 3 Mar 1998 Anita and JoAnne and Dolores wrote about *being
>hooks*, and part of the conversation went as follows . . .
>
>>>>Maybe it's hard and unpleasant and thankless to be an anima-hook.
>>Maybe we don't want stuff hanging on us.  That would be a reason not to
>want
>>to be seen in the "sacred spaces" of masculinist theology, where the
>>feminine is used as a hook on which to hang one's anima . . . and that
>in return we are allowed to do some hanging of things in return.  And
>that if we are silent we are only hooks.
>
>>This is what I'm afraid of, from or for anyone.  I don't want to be
>>only a hook or only a hanger, or for that to be our entire existence
>here.
>
>This is an issue that keeps coming up in my life, projecting inner
>thoughts onto others.  I could relate especially well with that image of
>the silent other as a *hook* upon which I could hang my fears or
>fantasies.  Reading about the *hooks* in the Psyber-L mail made me
>*self-aware* about this issue again.  I can't see any one of the people
>writing on this list, yet somehow through reading the texts you've sent
>in, I'm developing an image of each one of you in my mind.  And is that a
>good or bad thing?

It's inevitable, whether it's good or bad.  But image is more than just
what we look like, it's a whole confluence of thoughts, feelings and
reactions.  If you imagine me differently, you will interpret my words
differently.  Imagine I am 22, living in Paris for a semester.  Imagine I
am 38, having lived in my home town all my life.  Imagine I am 56, living
in New York after having tired of the L.A. scene.  Imagine I am 81, in a
retirement home, just now learning about computers.  Imagine I am male.
Imagine I am in a wheelchair.  Imagine I have AIDS.  Imagine I am rich.
Imagine I am homeless.  Imagine I am Belgian, South African, Egyptian,
Russian, African-American, German, Chinese, Thai... well, you get the idea.

There's the question of why I might hang a particular image on you.  Is it
because you say certain things, act a certain way, express certain
opinions, use particular kinds of language?  And does what I do know about
you really have any logical relationship with what I project onto you, or
is it simply an association I have made because, let's say, the other Corys
I have known were that same way?

>Maybe Its immature of me, but frankly  I like something about
>*projecting* images on disembodied voices.  I like to listen to radio
>dramas, and just imagine the scenes in my mind.  When I listen to radio,
>I imagine the faces of the people I hear talking---and when I see their
>real faces in a photograph or on television, I'm always startled.  I
>think, that can't be the radio personality I knew!!

And in this medium we have both more and less -- no physical cues, but at
least we're the writers, and we have the opportunity, if not inevitably the
desire, to be honest with each other rather than trying to be entertaining.

>I like writing and reading in this e-mail list without having seen any of
>the other members in a photograph.  But, just what is going on here?
>Must keep exploring . . .

It's worth exploring.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:37:38 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cory Jones <xcjones@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      If you imagine me differently . . .

Hello JoAnne,

On  Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:07:43 GMT you wrote
(in response to my comments on how the words of the e-mail messages on
PSYBER-L  evoke mental-pictures of you unseen writers in faraway places)
something that got me to thinking:

> If you imagine me differently, you will interpret my words differently.

So, here's where that led me  . . .

Words create mental images,
(your e-mail evokes a picture of you, though I've never seen you face to
face),
and that mental image has an influence on how I look at the words you
write,
(the image of you shades my interpretation of the meaning in your words),
which in turn probably influences my mental image of you,
(for example when you say *I'm a 22 year-old woman*),
which in turn affects the way I read the words that follow,
which in turn influence the mental image of you,
et cetera . . .
. . . in something like a circle or dance-like interaction.

Am I now approaching the threshold of that Lacan fellow?  Ouch!
I didn't expect this to happen, but this PSYBER-L stuff is getting under
my skin!

And this talk about projecting reminds me of an eloquent saying from
Nietzsche, (though I'm not sure this is really how it goes):
"Remember, when you stare into the abyss,
the abyss stares back also."


Again, best regards to  you all,

Mr. Cory Jones
1729 Sunflower Avenue, #B
Glendora, California 91740
United States of America
E-MAIL: xcjones@juno.com

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Mar 1998 23:29:04 +0200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      [Fwd: Rejected posting to PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,this  post is from Susan.  For some reason she  couldn't  be let onto
the list.

Forwarded by Anita

>Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:26:32 -0600
>From: Susan Swan <sswan@sunbird.usd.edu>
>Organization: University of South Dakota
>To: Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
>Subject: [Fwd: Rejected posting to PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
>
>Anita--Would you be willing to repost this over to the psyber-l list?
>Somehow the computer has decided that I don't exist even though I've had
>the same address for the last 3 years. I'd sure appreciate it.
>               SusanReceived: from home.ease.lsoft.com (home.ease.lsoft.com
[206.241.12.9]) by sunbird.usd.edu (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA22458 for
<sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:21:12 -0600 (CST)
>Message-Id: <199803061621.KAA22458@sunbird.usd.edu>
>Received: from home (206.241.12.9) by home.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for
Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <8.9300E6F0@home.ease.lsoft.com>; Fri, 6 Mar
1998 11:18:22 -0500
>Date:         Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:18:22 -0500
>From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8c)"
>              <LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>Subject:      Rejected posting to PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
>To: sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU
>
>You  are  not  authorized  to  send   mail  to  the  PSYBER-L  list  from  your
>sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU account. You might be authorized to send to the list from
>another of  your accounts,  or perhaps  when using  another mail  program which
>generates slightly  different addresses, but  LISTSERV has no way  to associate
>this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance or if you have
>any question regarding the policy of the PSYBER-L list, please contact the list
>owners: PSYBER-L-request@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM.
>
>------------------------ Rejected message (53 lines) --------------------------
>Received: from usd.edu (192.55.228.42) by home.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for
Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <7.91C16210@home.ease.lsoft.com>; Fri, 6 Mar
1998 11:18:21 -0500
>Received: from oemcomputer (ppp13.usd.edu [192.55.228.120]) by usd.edu
(8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA11043; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:18:16 -0600
>Message-ID: <35002139.21BB2682@sunbird.usd.edu>
>Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:15:53 -0600
>From: Susan Swan <sswan@sunbird.usd.edu>
>Organization: University of South Dakota
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0 [en] (Win95; I)
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: "PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM" <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>Subject: [Fwd: (no subject)]
>X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
>Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------347B271B2D13AE9A6EEFF4FF"
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------347B271B2D13AE9A6EEFF4FF
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Dear Walter--My apologies for using the list for this, but I can't find
>your address.
> The *#&&* listserv says I don't exist and thus won't let me reconfirm
>being on this list. While I realize that lately I'm very quiet (I've
>been quite ill and also overloaded in work/life), I listen well and as
>the posts all arrive I must presume that I exist on the listserv despite
>this notice to the contrary. Pleaase help.
>                               Susan
>--------------347B271B2D13AE9A6EEFF4FF
>Content-Type: message/rfc822
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Disposition: inline
>
>Received: from mango.ease.lsoft.com (mango-backup.dc.lsoft.com
[206.241.13.21]) by sunbird.usd.edu (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA17416 for
<sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 23:32:18 -0600 (CST)
>Message-Id: <199803060532.XAA17416@sunbird.usd.edu>
>Received: from home (206.241.12.9) by mango.ease.lsoft.com (LSMTP for
Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.E20B5650@mango.ease.lsoft.com>; Fri, 6 Mar
1998 0:29:11 -0500
>Date:         Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:29:30 -0500
>From: "L-Soft list server at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM (1.8c)"
>              <LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
>Subject:      Re: (no subject)
>To: sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU
>
>> CONFIRM PSYBER-L
>You are not subscribed to the PSYBER-L list.
>
>Summary of resource utilization
>-------------------------------
> CPU time:        0.000 sec
> Overhead CPU:    0.000 sec
> CPU model:         200MHz Pentium Pro (256M)
> Job origin:      sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU
>
>
>--------------347B271B2D13AE9A6EEFF4FF--
>
>
>

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 10:50:08 +1300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: [Fwd: Rejected posting to PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM]
In-Reply-To:  <199803062129.XAA02663@walrus.megabaud.fi>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anita, Susan,

> Walter,this  post is from Susan.  For some reason she  couldn't
be let onto
> the list.

All fixed as far as I can tell.  I hope it was not too
frustrating.

> The *#&&* listserv says I don't exist and thus won't let me
reconfirm
>being on this list. While I realize that lately I'm very quiet
(I've
>been quite ill and also overloaded in work/life), I listen well
and as
>the posts all arrive I must presume that I exist on the listserv
despite
>this notice to the contrary.

The setup is that those have not written to the list for 3 months?
I think then get an automated message asking to confirm within 14
days.  When I first implemented it the list lost about 60 or so
people, with little complaint.  It means that now we know that the
60 or so on the list are involved in some way, which I think is
one of those things that adds to the sense of purpose here, we
know (a little more) people are listening when we write.  Before
one could entertain the projection that 150 were reading, now we
can only assume 60.  Keeps our projections in check!

I know this can be pesky, however I think it is grate to know you
are here Susan especially when we hear in person like this.  Are
you well now?


Walter

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:18:43 +1300
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Being a hook for other folks' projections
In-Reply-To:  <35058215.175942310@mail.clark.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

JoAnne:
> And in this medium we have both more and less -- no physical
cues, but at
> least we're the writers, and we have the opportunity, if not
inevitably the
> desire, to be honest with each other rather than trying to be
entertaining.

Anita:
> >I like writing and reading in this e-mail list without having
seen any of
> >the other members in a photograph.  But, just what is going on
here?
> >Must keep exploring . . .

JoAnne:
> It's worth exploring.

It is *the* stuff of *exploring the psyche in cyberspace* which is
a description of the purpose of Psyber-L.

Having an anima projection put on you might feel different other
projections, and differ among people.  I guess anima is preferable
to "object".

I find it hard to carry projection.  I think that there was at one
point, in Psyber-L the idea that I should "take more control" ...
that is a projection I think.  I worked hard on this!  Is it a
projection or not?  I got to the point, eventually, that it is
*not* to the extent that as listowner I can do things others cant,
and when I am asked to do one of *those* things, there is a
reality base.  Even then the *texture* of what is going on goes
deeper ...

Why do I get certain projections and not others?  What is my part
in that?  What projections do I get which I don't even notice, or
take on as my due?

~~~

I recommend a piece HooN wrote in Psyber-L about nature of
projection in his 'pet' world view:

http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9709&L=psyber-l&P=
R10501

Date:         Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:25:09 -0400
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Wilbur->archetypal psychology


Best wishes,


Walter

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:01:07 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter, you asked the following:

> What do you Robert, or anyone, make of the discussion (please
> read it again) re the relationship between action and
> psychotherapy, that Robert and Jim, had which concluded, in the
> following post:
>
>   Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
>   Re: me see outside
>   Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:42:37 -0500
>
> with this, I quote:
>
> Robert:
> > When energy and thought
> > return with force, write again and connect with me here.
> >
>
> Jim:
> ... and I would want to connect with you again  because ??
>
> ~~~ end quote ~~~
>
> One of the silences i experience here is this unfinished
> conversation.  It seems *pertinent*, to both your journey,
> Robert, psychological and *physical* and to our discussions here
> where "action" is a strange word indeed.  (I imagine when Dolores
> is in the mood we will see a bit of action!  Or are you
> questioning that role in life Dolores?)

I've been away on vacation for the past 2 weeks so have not been able to
respond sooner.  I gather you haven't seen fit to respond either Robert (you
have made other posts so I assume this to be a choice).  I believe this is a
pattern for you i.e. you are quite happy to post inner meanderings - but
withdraw whenever a list member dares to question the validity of your
'journey'.

Now let me put my bias on the table - I expect people to maintain their day
jobs, in large measure my crankiness towards "The Wounded Healer's Journey"
comes from my perception that you have removed yourself from work without
justification.  As a Canadian Teacher you have access to an extraordinarily
generous sick pay plan that could support you at  close to full salary for
the duration of your 'journey'.  My question is ... are you medically sick?
If not - get back to work.  The only legitimate use of sick pay is for
sickness.  Last time I checked, there was no diagnostic code for angst.  If
you indeed you are sick - then I question your choice of "Jungian Analysis"
as a treatment.  Please do not misinterpret me here - if you are seeking some
form of personal enlightenment - and analysis is your preferred vehicle for
understanding, then so be it.  However you should be paying your own way and
not relying on your employer (and by extension the tax payer) for sick pay.
I'm no expert on analysis but I doubt any of the aficionados of the
discipline would see it as a valid treatment for acute mental illness.  If I
might share some of  my own experience in providing vocational rehabilitation
to teachers experiencing 'burnout',  the key to recovery came from a
realization that there was very little value in understanding the "why"
behind the burnout, while actively pursuing activities that replenished the
soul and spirit were of great benefit.  In fact, the individuals who refused
to move on in their lives until they understood the "why" - rarely recovered
- and when they did recover, it took so long that their family and friends
had usually moved on without them.

Your writings, "Wounded Healer's Journey" do make me aware of your pain and
distress and I am able to sympathize - however I cannot empathize - I have
the sense of you wallowing in the muck and perhaps even celebrating this
"stuckness".  Hence my challenge

     "I would want to connect with you again  because ?? "

My sense is that you have an automatic assumption that I (and other list
members) are "waiting for each installment with bated breath" (to paraphrase
Walter).   As should be clear by now - I'm breathing fully and freely.  I am
willing to connect but I will not join in a celebration of angst.

Be well.

...Jim

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:31:07 +0200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Being a hook for other folks' projections
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

  Walter,

At 11:18 1998-03-08 +1300, you wrote:
 >I find it hard to carry projection.
It not  so  hard  to be  a hook for  positive  projections.  To be honest
it  is  quite flattering to be  a target for  positive anima projection,
let's say, a muse.
 Otherwise, it is really very hard to carry  negative  projection.  Thanks
God,  I  doesn't live  in  the  17th century. I would have been burnt as  a
witch, because I'm  left-handed  and  red-haired,  only a black cat is
missing,  instead of it  I have two grey cats. When  I was a school girl and
sat in the glass cabinet  by the  side of the main street of Helsinki  and
sold ice-cream during my summer vacation.  I remember those  oldish
gentlemen ( to  my mind) who   didn't  want  to buy ice-cream, but me.  It
was  embarrassing . They have  the very  old-fashioned mental image, that
all  red-haired  girls are whores.

You asked:
>Why do I get certain projections and not others?  What is my part
>in that?  What projections do I get which I don't even notice, or
>take on as my due?
Because  you are  a  psychotherapist  you have  power.   May it is illusory.
And as a listowner you have power here,  if  you like it, or not .  Let's
imagine, that  I have  some  troubles with my  animus  or  inner  ruler,  so
I  will project unconsciously those problems onto you.  And  you will be
for  me  the doubtful male person,  who  tries to  control  me and exercise
of power over me. But  if  I have  a positive animus  image, you  are to me
the  wise  guide, whom I can always trust.

BTW, it  was not me, who  wrote:

>> >I like writing and reading in this e-mail list without having
>seen any of the other members in a photograph.  But, just what is going on
>here? Must keep exploring . . .

It  was Cory. I liked his  Nietzsche quotation: >"Remember, when you stare
into the abyss, the abyss stares back also."
Hello Cory, I  didn't  know on the  ground of your given name Cory, if
you're  a male or female. But  somehow I  knew on the ground of  your
writing  style, that you  must be  the male.   The matter was cleared to me,
when  you added before your name a little but significant  abbreviation: "Mr."

Walter,  to  my mind   the  confirmation interval of three months  fort
those have not written to the list for 3 months,  is too short.   When  I'm
wring intensively a  novel ,  I'm not able  to write in English anything for
long periods,  but  I  like  to  read your messages.
Best wishes
Anita

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:31:09 +0200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hello  Jim,

I feel that you are too harsh to Robert. Maybe  you are a  public
authority, who  decides on sick benefits.

At 23:01 1998-03-07 -0500, you wrote:
 My question is ... are you medically sick? If not - get back to work.  The
only legitimate use of sick pay is for sickness.  Last time I checked, there
was no diagnostic code for angst.

I think that  there is no diagnostic code for  writer's cramp,  either.  For
years ago I have  both angst  and  writer's cramp.  I  was lost my words and
authenticity, the  words into  which  I  tried to put my life, was not my
own, they were words of others-  my parents, teachers, peers etc.  I didn't
know who  I was,  I   was not able to feel anything . So  I  went to
psychotherapy. It  lasted over four  years, and it was   free of cost,
thanks to the tax payers and  the  then good   mental health system.  I
think that  therapy helped  me to give up grandiose and  romantic notions
about the importance of suffering, and  retreat into destructive  self-
indulgence. I  became free of past and  at the same time more meaningfully
attached to it.

You  got provoked about "  The Wounded   Healer's Journey".   I think that
Robert has not yet found  his own  words,  maybe he  has  an authenticity
crisis,  and  to my experience it is  a serious  crisis,   albeit there is
no code  for  such a crisis.

With best regards
Anita

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 14:15:23 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jim,

I have been stunned for the most part by your response.  My first
reaction was anger.  Then, I listened to your words again and felt
guilt.  Then I listened to my own inner voice.  Now, I am able to
respond.  This waiting to respond has lasted longer than I thought I
needed to wait, but now I think that it has waited just the right amount
of time.  I held on to the tension of responding with hurt and anger
until these seemed to evolve into something else.

I wrote to you following a death of one close to you ...

> > > When energy and thought
> > > return with force, write again and connect with me here.

and you responded ...

> > ... and I would want to connect with you again  because ??

To tell the truth, I was stunned and didn't know how to respond.  I
didn't know what lay behind this kind of response to what I had thought
was genuine concern for your sorrow and your loss.  I assumed that your
pain spilled out in the container of this place.

> I've been away on vacation for the past 2 weeks so have not been
> able to respond sooner.  I gather you haven't seen fit to respond
> either Robert (you have made other posts so I assume this to be a
> choice).  I believe this is a pattern for you i.e. you are quite
> happy to post inner meanderings - but withdraw whenever a list
> member dares to question the validity of your 'journey'.

Thanks for explaining your silence.  As for my silence in reply to your
post, I hope that you can consider that I indeed was stung by your
response, and confused.  It does bother me that you so easily generalise
and analyse my nature.  You talk about the questionning of the validity
of my journey.  I doubt that anyone can question it more than myself.  I
do understand how doubt can be raised.  It would be so much easier if I
had cancer, that is so much more acceptable.

Consider the writing of much of my posts, especially the introductory
aspects of the journey poetry ... it was written while my students were
in the classroom ... I was driven to write it in order to prevent tears
from escaping, to avoid reacting to the normal tensions in the
classroom, with unintentionally bruising the ego of some innocent
adolescent.  I found myself being bruised too easily by normal
adolescent talk and behaviour.  At home, I found myself escaping into
the darkness and into silence in an attempt to not say the wrong things,
in an attempt not to scare my wife and son with unexplainable tears ...
unsuccessfully as my wife felt them and worried.  She hid my rifles (I
used to hunt many years ago), she worried whn I hd to drive some
distance alone.

Why do I say this to you?  I don't know if you want to hear this or even
care.  I do have a motive in speaking of this.  I care about the task of
teaching.  It is too important for me or anyone to do just as a job.
Children deserve more than that ... and for now, I can't give them more.
Yes, I could bury the pain enough to spend the requisite hours to earn a
paycheck.  But, I would be doing more harm than good to myself and thus
to them by this.

> Now let me put my bias on the table - I expect people to maintain
> their day jobs, in large measure my crankiness towards "The Wounded
> Healer's Journey"o comes from my perception that you have removed
> yourself from work without justification.

I understand your point of view.  I don't share it because teaching
isn't/shouldn't be just a job.  Teaching demands more than just hours
and supervision.  It demands a giving and sharing of self as guide.  The
delivery of information is probably the smallest part of the task.  for
too many it is considered the sum total of the task ... the system errs
in my opinion in forgetting the importance of the relational dynamics
within the classroom.  Yes I have removed myself ... and this is
supported by my family doctor of more than 15 years.  It is supported by
the counsellor who is responsible for ensuring that such leave is
legitimate.  It is supported by my students and my community.  I am the
one who questions this the most.  Your speaking of what I hear inside,
what I attack myself for.

> My question is ... are you medically sick? If not - get back to work.
> The only legitimate use of sick pay is for sickness.

I guess that depends on how you want to define sickness.  If is to be
defined as something that involves viruses, broken bones, germs, etc.
... no, I guess not ... but if it involves the psyche ... yes I am.  And
I rail against this.  I am angry that I have betrayed my own vow to hold
on to teaching until my son graduated (he does this in June) ... I was
not strong enough and for this I find it hard to forgive myself.  But,
to not take this journey to healing would only hasten the death of this
organism, this soul.  I am not angry with your words, I hear them as an
echo of my own inner judge.

> I'm no expert on analysis but I doubt any of the aficionados of the
> discipline would see it as a valid treatment for acute mental illness.

I guess that there might be more to mental health and mental dis-ease
than is contained within the DSM-IV.  I have faith and hope that the
path of Jungian psychoanalysis is one that will guide me there in a way
that is most congruent with who I am, who I am potentially.

> ... the individuals who refused to move on in their lives until
> they understood the "why" - rarely recovered - and when they did
> recover, it took so long that their family and friends
> had usually moved on without them.

Jim, how many have been lost without making this journey.  I live in a
society where people die without analysis, self-inflicted deaths.  Life
had becoming meaningless, the pain of "being" to heavy to continue.
Perhaps these losses are necessary, but I have the belief that given
meaning and purpose, any pain, any amount of suffering is bearable.  If
I can't love myself, how can I love my family or the children that I
teach.  This is part of my "journey".

> ... I cannot empathize - I have the sense of you wallowing in the
> muck and perhaps even celebrating this "stuckness".

If anything, it is because in finally realising that I am stuck, that I
have hope of returning to life that is not under the shadow of
hopelessness, that doesn't find death magically attractive.  Jim, I
celebrate the hope of finding some light, some reason within for "life".
I can't hold on only for the sake of "others" though they are my
children or my wife or my students or my friends or my community or my
god.

> My sense is that you have an automatic assumption that I (and other
> list members) are "waiting for each installment with bated breath"
> (to paraphrase Walter).   As should be clear by now - I'm breathing
> fully and freely.

I apologise for this.  If need be, I will make this journey with more
silence.  I have no intention of offending, no intention of raising
anger.  I do not have more right to this space than anyone else.  I had
thought that in sharing the journey I might become less of unknown both
to myself and to those who share this place.  Perhaps you are right.

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:36:21 +0000
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <35030A6B.86D@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Robert:

  Please, write more as you continue your journey. I'll decide whether to
read it or not.  I don't like someone making assumptions for me. Jim may
have been right for Jim......not me.


  Best of luck on your journey.

 Janell


At 02:15 PM 03/08/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> My sense is that you have an automatic assumption that I (and other
>> list members) are "waiting for each installment with bated breath"
>> (to paraphrase Walter).   As should be clear by now - I'm breathing
>> fully and freely.
>
>I apologise for this.  If need be, I will make this journey with more
>silence.  I have no intention of offending, no intention of raising
>anger.  I do not have more right to this space than anyone else.  I had
>thought that in sharing the journey I might become less of unknown both
>to myself and to those who share this place.  Perhaps you are right.
>
>Robert
>

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:29:10 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <199803081731.TAA19556@walrus.megabaud.fi>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:31 PM 3/8/98 +0200, Anita wrote:
>Hello  Jim,
>
>I feel that you are too harsh to Robert. Maybe  you are a  public
>authority, who  decides on sick benefits.

Amazing, Anita. Jim wasn't nearly as harsh to Robert as you were to me
when my father was dying.

julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:13:37 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <35030A6B.86D@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 02:15 PM 3/8/98 -0700, Robert wrote:

Robert, I have to say I agree with Anita's comment that  Jim was too
hard on you.

>I can't hold on only for the sake of "others" though they are my
>children or my wife or my students or my friends or my community or my
>god.

This shook me. There have been times in my life when I was not sure
if I could "hold on" - but when I thought about my children I simply had
to hold on. However, my circumstances may have been very different
from yours. To me, causing my children pain is worse, I suppose, than
causing myself pain. I don't say this to judge you - your comment just
struck me because my children have been at least my excuse to not
give up, not smoke, etc.

Jim said:>> My sense is that you have an automatic assumption that I (and
other
>> list members) are "waiting for each installment with bated breath"
>> (to paraphrase Walter).   As should be clear by now - I'm breathing
>> fully and freely.
>
>I apologise for this.  If need be, I will make this journey with more
>silence.  I have no intention of offending, no intention of raising
>anger.  I do not have more right to this space than anyone else.  I had
>thought that in sharing the journey I might become less of unknown both
>to myself and to those who share this place.  Perhaps you are right

Robert, please make noise if you need be. I think it was you who asked
me about my journey...(I may be wrong). One post from me on my journey
and I felt a degree of silencing on this list also. For a list which
defines iself
in psychological terms, this is a very strange list. I haven't said
anyhting much,
certainly nothing personal, for some time because of the response I felt I
would probably get from the list. I wrote to Walter to tell him my father was
dying and I was suffering very much from the attack, but heard nothing from
him.
When I wrote again he told me not to write to him personally - just to send
it to the list. I had already told the list my father was dying while I
looked after
him by myself - but there was no support or response. Instead I was ripped to
shreds for suggesting that current research suggests we are not sure what
the real differences are between males and females.

When my father died, the response was small and most perfunctory. I was
struck by Walter's comment  that he wasn't affected much by his wife's
father's death.

I have been hoping I would feel like contributing to this list again, but I
feel that
the atmosphere is very strange...hostile, unsupportive, angry. Most of the
focus is on Walter and his running of the list...and so much else is pretty
much
ignored. I responded to Meeseo's post because he seemed to be so caring...
and I have missed that on this list - or not found it. I write answers to
people
on this list in my mind sometimes, but then decide not to send it because I
imagine another accusatory response from JoAnne, or another attack from
Anita. As I told Walter before, I became sick from the attacks last time, and
that made my father sick as well, when I was fighting so hard to keep him
alive.

I am glad Meeseo is here, and sometimes that Hoon is...but sometimes I
am not sure what Hoon is thinking either. There seems to be a wall
between people here...

Robert...I wish you well...and I hope you will feel healed. Would you like
to send me your birth data? I might have some insght into what you are
experiencing.

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:45:51 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert:

Thank you for your response.  Although I've read many of your posts, both in
the archives and as a listmember, this feels for me like meeting you for the
first time.  Stripped of dramatic phrasing and careful composition, your
words have the ring of truth - now I can empathize and I wish you well in
your 'journey'.

Also a point of clarification - my previous post was not intended as a "Shut
up Robert" statement.  When I spoke of not waiting with "bated breath" I was
trying to make the point that in this kind of open forum it is hazardous to
make assumptions re. the motivations and perceptions of the audience.  In
situations such as yours it may be better to write to fulfil your own needs
and so be less vulnerable to the group?

Janell, Anita and Julienne have now chimed in with statements of support for
you.  I'm puzzled that this seems to have happened in response to my
challenge, but did not occur in response to your earlier writings.  Why was
it easier to be supportive in your defense rather than to be supportive in
the first place?

Robert, you speak of me echoing your "inner judge" - be careful of inner
judges.  I had the good fortune to be able to go on a solo camping trip in
the dead of winter.  I spent 4 days quietly terrified (and exhilerated) in
the unbelievable silence.  On the second day, I became aware of my inner
dialogue as something separate from myself.  On the 3rd day, I recognized
that the voices of that dialogue were from my childhood.  On the 4th day, the
voices turned out to be Mom and Dad in their crankier moods.  I went home
realizing that the voices may have been programmed in - but I didn't have to
agree with them.  Life has never been the same since and when I'm feeling
negativistic most often its that childish inner dialogue that has failed to
keep up with current reality.  If only I could have back the passed time and
wasted energy I'd devoted to trying to appease that inner dialogue.

Lastly, and again from my experience and from a review of the available
research - people suffering from depression rarely recover when their only
treatment is psychotherapy.  When the treatment is with medication alone,
they recover approximately 80% of the time - but remain very prone to
relapse.  When both modalities are pursued, the recovery rate is the same as
for medication and the likelihood of relapse is greatly reduced (probably
because the person benefits from the psychotherapy and is therefore able to
change the depressive aspects of their life).  I have almost certainly
oversimplified here and will probably be pilloried (sp?) for having
sacrificed a sacred cow - but what the hell.  You've got a family and a life,
why not go the route that gives you the best odds of getting back to enjoying
it?  Anita guessed that I may be some kind of official involved in approving
sick leaves and thats true - this task is a small part of my work.  For what
its worth - in my opinion your situation as you describe it is legitimate.
These benefits are intended to allow people the opportunity to heal (both
broken bones and spirits) without having to contend with additional financial
hardship.  I hope all works out for the best for you.

...Jim

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 20:42:59 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Julienne & Robert

 Julienne

I read your posts..
I can't express my feelings in English fully.
It takes long time to write it in English.
    (this week , no time, I will have an open lecture)
     but ...I agree with you.

> I responded to Meeseo's post because he seemed to be so caring
> I am glad Meeseo is here

 Thank you for your a warm reception.
 In fact, I am too sensitive and easy to be hurt by others.
 So I know the mind of sensitive person well.
 I am sorry......do you think I am a male?...no, I am a female.

> Robert...I wish you well...and I hope you will feel healed.

 Me too.
 Before, I sent my e-mail(with pictures) to him individually,
 because It contains pictures , and further  I think  others in Psyber-L
 dislike my reaction to someone's sufferings.
 Most people were silent  and I thought so.

 Julienne,

We don't have to  be angry with others.
Of course, We are hurt by their indifference.
But They have their own troubles and their rights to think and act
freely.

I am glad to meet you.

Meeseo. ^.^

**********************

 Robert

Don't be angry.
I wait for your posts about your journey.

Meeseo.. ~.*

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:55:16 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <350365EE.584E32A1@easynet.on.ca>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Jim writes,

[snip]
>in this kind of open forum it is hazardous to
>make assumptions re. the motivations and perceptions of the audience.

Hazardous among all the other conundrums of interpersonal communication
which coincide with each of our multivarious projections, needs,
representations, etc. and etc.

and also,

[snip]
>I'm puzzled that this seems to have happened in response to my
>challenge, but did not occur in response to your earlier writings.  Why was
>it easier to be supportive in your defense rather than to be supportive in
>the first place?

I'd add: specific qualifying of historical events is somewhat hazardous
too; hazardous to the veracity of the record. Surely Robert has enjoyed
support previously, and not enjoyed non-support.

Umm, the record is quite long and extensive, yes?

***

Julienne,

It's a tough place, this place. We're all trying to one degree or another,
and it may provide for special moments, glimpses. It has in the past. Yet,
as in all human things, it's not aimed true all the time.

A lot of times I don't know what to say. I wait. Maybe nothing gets said.
*Our* silence.

***

As for Robert who's voice rings not like a brand new bell but nonetheless,
to me, like a old weathered, rung many many times bell...

I tell him and us and me this:

"honesty doesn't have to be beautiful"

and I'm very appreciative for everybody's honesty...

that means you!  ;-)

***

HooN


ps - and you!

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:35:58 +0200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne,

You wrote:
>Amazing, Anita. Jim wasn't nearly as harsh to Robert as you were to me
>when my father was dying.

I regret not having realised that your father's dying and "the Wilbur war"
was so severely entangled together. I was harsh to you because of  Wilbur. I
knew his vulnerability, and thought, for some reason, that you are stronger,
more mature and whole than  Wilbur. It was my false projection, I didn't
even know you, because you was a new on the list.

You  wrote also:
>As I told Walter before, I became sick from the attacks last time, and
>that made my father sick as well, when I was fighting so hard to keep him
>alive.

I understand your  embitterment,  but  to my mind  your claim is excessive.
Now I wonder, why  you didn't  withdraw because of  the gravity of  your
father's situation?
   My attack on you was situational, and was caused by Wilbur's departure. I
miss him.  I enjoyed his postings, they  were personal  and interesting,
albeit he was often aggressive.

  > It has in the past. Yet, as in all human things, it's not aimed true all
the time, as  HooN  wisely  put it.

best wishes
Anita

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:15:10 +0000
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Living in a virtual haze.
In-Reply-To:  <199803091635.SAA13900@walrus.megabaud.fi>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear All,

Sometimes I wonder, if because I am born in the Western Hemisphere, I can
indulge my neurosis/problems/self indulgent melancholys, with greater
freedom than if I were starving in Africa. I wonder then if Love would be
as important to me as the knowledge of where my next meal would be coming
from.
Sometimes I wonder, if by fault of Geography, I feel too much because I
actually don't feel enough. Don't feel enough of hunger, of pain, of
thirst, so is my life as a human being, less intense because I don't have
the stimulus from my body, sharpening what is reality as opposed to being
able to create fantasy situations, from the warmth of my living room, my
mind creates its own warped perception of feeling, of knowing I am.
Sometimes I am not sure I am, I think therefore I am, doesn't seem to work
for me. I fantasise therefore that is my reality. Sometimes I think one day
is the next, and I can't remember what day of the week it is, and as for
knowing the date, I'd have to go looking at a Calender. I'm wandering
through life in some kind of dream state, dream walking through the
decades. Sometimes I long to go sit in a wood all by myself, to feel. How
does it actually feel to be alive, to really know you are alive, to feel
extremes. I have only truly ever felt emotional pain.
I know I am diabetic, I can ignore it, there are no physical manifestations
of my state, as yet, though eventually I live with the knowledge I'm likely
to go blind and have my foot amputated. Thats another thing, while in
Hospital a few weeks ago, to the side of my bed were two old Ladies, one
had had her leg amputated, the other was unable to walk. As I watched them
battle with their zimmer frames in my pethedine enhanced reality, I thought
to myself, what is the point. I think I would rather be dead than
incapacitated, at the mercy of others to lift me on and off the toilet.
What is the point, for me that would be no life, but then, I don't know
what it is to be truly alive. I can only marvel, admire them, for they must
have both been in their late 70's or 80's and I admired them for having the
tenacity to hold on so long, and I can only imagine the lives they have
lived, and things they have seen, and history they had lived through, and
all the while your body is plotting it's next move to betray you, and still
you cling on, and I don't at this point in my life, see why. I spoke about
it to the anesthetists as I waited for theatre, and having allayed my fears
that people don't generally wet themselves or fart under anasthetic and if
they do, they don't know about it anyway, she said that too often she too,
looked at the people as they lay waiting, and wondered if this was really
the best thing for them, if there was really any point to prolonging their
lives, and that they were really just doing something because they could,
because we seem to value the sustaining of life at any price, whereas if
nature took it's course, things might be entirely different.
Personally if my daughter were to take the view when I was older, that I
was too old and useless to be of any good to anybody, in the manner of
wolves and certain animals, if she put me out of my misery, I'd rather
count it an honour and in a way quite natural and right. Course, I'd rather
I had some say in the matter too.
If I had cancer etc, I would fight, because the technology is there to give
me a fighting chance, but by the same token, if I could die with dignity,
and with   acceptance, devoid of that choice, then I might die happier than
were I clutching at straws till the bitter end. I watched my father in law,
take that option, and at the time I thought he was a coward for not
fighting, but I came to realise in later years, it was more an act of
bravery, for he had nothing to fear, and had accepted that his time had
come, and that he would rather die at home in total peace, than battling it
out amongst the testubes and machinery of the hospital.

I have strange desires to plunge myself into icy waters, to see if that
wakes me up. Not sure if you don't need to be close to death to know what
living is really all about. There is one thing I have learnt, as a child I
feared old age, of growing up, of getting old and wrinkly, now I think,
it's going to be a wonderfull time, a time of wonder and knowledge, er..if
I live that long.

Not sure what any of this is about either..


Dolores.

P.S I think we should mass mail Wilbur and see if he will come back. I miss
him.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:00:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <350365EE.584E32A1@easynet.on.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>, on Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:45:51
-0500, you wrote:

>Robert:
>
>Thank you for your response.  Although I've read many of your posts, both in
>the archives and as a listmember, this feels for me like meeting you for the
>first time.  Stripped of dramatic phrasing and careful composition, your
>words have the ring of truth - now I can empathize and I wish you well in
>your 'journey'.

[snip]

>Janell, Anita and Julienne have now chimed in with statements of support for
>you.  I'm puzzled that this seems to have happened in response to my
>challenge, but did not occur in response to your earlier writings.  Why was
>it easier to be supportive in your defense rather than to be supportive in
>the first place?

I made a statement of support early on, but I did not quite understand
where Robert was coming from, and simply hoped I would in time, and while
normally I'm the challenging, nasty attacking person, I laid back on it to
observe.

I think your challenge to him did it and I thank you for that.  It's not
always easy being the challenger.

-JoAnne
---
I gave up on spamblocking.  Sigh.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:00:13 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <19980309021338.AAA25492@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:13:37
-0500, you wrote:

>At 02:15 PM 3/8/98 -0700, Robert wrote:
>
>Robert, I have to say I agree with Anita's comment that  Jim was too
>hard on you.

I imagine Jim's response was based on his own limited experience, as are
all of ours.  More on this in response to Jim's post.

>>I can't hold on only for the sake of "others" though they are my
>>children or my wife or my students or my friends or my community or my
>>god.
>
>This shook me. There have been times in my life when I was not sure
>if I could "hold on" - but when I thought about my children I simply had
>to hold on. However, my circumstances may have been very different
>from yours. To me, causing my children pain is worse, I suppose, than
>causing myself pain. I don't say this to judge you - your comment just
>struck me because my children have been at least my excuse to not
>give up, not smoke, etc.

If Robert is in such a state that he can't depend on that kind of
motivation to keep on living, then he has a bigger challenge to face.

My belief is that our children, our parents, our husbands/wives/lovers/what
have you are not suitable reasons for living.  We can lose any one at any
time and must find meaning to go on.  Depending on any one of these is a
mistake.  It's a natural stage in depression, I think, but will not lead to
healing, only to pain as the depression becomes more severe and the
"motivators" cease to have enough power.  Then guilt sets in, guilt that we
are not loving enough to keep from causing these people pain.

The real issue is not pleasing these other people, and having them fulfill
our lives.  It's in fulfilling our own lives with the work we do, the
relationships we have, which, if the person dies or goes away, we still
have the power to have another relationship and a "body of work" to look
back on.

Julienne, I feel that if you were somehow forced into a situation without
those same people, you would respect yourself enough not to smoke, for
example, and would form new relationships with new people that have the
same positive character your current relationships have.  You would honor
the relationship you had with your family even if they were gone.  This is
different from not killing yourself because it would hurt their feelings,
and just waiting for them to leave you alone so you can die in peace, which
is what I feel Robert leaning towards.  Robert, is this your mood?

>Jim said:>> My sense is that you have an automatic assumption that I (and
>other
>>> list members) are "waiting for each installment with bated breath"
>>> (to paraphrase Walter).   As should be clear by now - I'm breathing
>>> fully and freely.
>>
>>I apologise for this.  If need be, I will make this journey with more
>>silence.  I have no intention of offending, no intention of raising
>>anger.  I do not have more right to this space than anyone else.  I had
>>thought that in sharing the journey I might become less of unknown both
>>to myself and to those who share this place.  Perhaps you are right
>
>Robert, please make noise if you need be.

I second this.  I don't want you to be turned away.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:42:50 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <199803091635.SAA13900@walrus.megabaud.fi>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:35 PM 3/9/98 +0200, Anita wrote:
>Julienne,

>I regret not having realised that your father's dying and "the Wilbur war"
>was so severely entangled together. I was harsh to you because of  Wilbur. I
>knew his vulnerability, and thought, for some reason, that you are stronger,
>more mature and whole than  Wilbur. It was my false projection, I didn't
>even know you, because you was a new on the list.

>You  wrote also:
>>As I told Walter before, I became sick from the attacks last time, and
>>that made my father sick as well, when I was fighting so hard to keep him
>>alive.
>
>I understand your  embitterment,  but  to my mind  your claim is excessive.
>Now I wonder, why  you didn't  withdraw because of  the gravity of  your
>father's situation?

I did withdraw for two weeks...but while I was away the conversation went
on about me as if I were still in the midst of it. I thought that trying to
respond
might help to clarify things, but it didn't.  Whatever I tried to say was

>   My attack on you was situational, and was caused by Wilbur's departure. I
>miss him.  I enjoyed his postings, they  were personal  and interesting,
>albeit he was often aggressive.

Well, I think your attack was excessive. I had just lost my mother as well,
and I
did tell you all about it. I was taking care of my father by myself 24
hours a day -
he couldn't even walk. I couldn't even leave him with other people because he
wouldn't eat or drink without me - and when others changed him his skin was
so fragile they left him bleeding. I woke up each morning wondering if he
would be dead. And I told you all this. Wilbur responded by making fun of
me -
and you joined in the attack.

>  > It has in the past. Yet, as in all human things, it's not aimed true all
>the time, as  HooN  wisely  put it.

It's interesting that you say you thought I was more mature and stronger and
whole than Wilbur - does that mean I deserve to be hurt? Or that it's all
right
to hurt me because I can take it? Does that mean I deserve to be alone
without support? I was - when my father was dying my family totally
abandoned him - none of them even visited him, except for my sons.
I learned such sad things about life last year - even within my own
family.

But you're right - I probably should just have left this list. It was just
such a
harrowing experience that I stayed hoping to find a way through it, to heal
it. I find that things we abandon have a way of coming back somehow. For
that reason I am, with caution and apprehension, glad we are talking now,
and I am trying to speak through my hurt and anger at being treated as I
was by this list. I also am aware that the degree of my reaction is probably
exacerbated by the grief of this past year, and in which I still find myself.
But my staying on this list felt a bit like a battered wife staying in an
abusive
marriage. I questioned why I did stay. I still question it.

Walter speaks about the death of his wife's father as though it was no big
deal.
I don't understand that - my father's death, and my mother's, and the collapse
of my primary family through those deaths, has left me shattered and in
pieces.
I am only just now starting to feel like joining back in life - which may
also be why
I am saying something here now. I couldn't have dealt before with another
barrage

of attack posts. If that's what happens this time - well, I'll have to see
what I do.

What drew me back to the list was Meeseo's gentleness...:) Not to me - to
someone else on the list. But seeing someone being kind on this list gave
me hope.

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:57:53 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <35142c8c.415328678@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:00 PM 3/9/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:13:37
>-0500, you wrote:
>
>>At 02:15 PM 3/8/98 -0700, Robert wrote:

>>>I can't hold on only for the sake of "others" though they are my
>>>children or my wife or my students or my friends or my community or my
>>>god.
>>
>>This shook me. There have been times in my life when I was not sure
>>if I could "hold on" - but when I thought about my children I simply had
>>to hold on. However, my circumstances may have been very different
>>from yours. To me, causing my children pain is worse, I suppose, than
>>causing myself pain. I don't say this to judge you - your comment just
>>struck me because my children have been at least my excuse to not
>>give up, not smoke, etc.

>The real issue is not pleasing these other people, and having them fulfill
>our lives.

No, JoAnne, the real issue for me is loving these people.

>Julienne, I feel that if you were somehow forced into a situation without
>those same people, you would respect yourself enough not to smoke, for
>example, and would form new relationships with new people that have the
>same positive character your current relationships have.  You would honor
>the relationship you had with your family even if they were gone.

JoAnne, I could not even imagine my children being gone. I think if that
happened
I would not want to live. I am sure I would go on, but I can't imagine it.
When my
father died this last November, I felt so much grief I didn't know if I
could ever
enjoy life again - the pain was unbearable. I couldn't sleep, eat, talk to
my friends.

But the pain if one of my children were to die is something I don't even
want to
imagine. Since my parents died, I have not wanted to spend as much time with
my friends, or even talk to them. They take me to a movie, and I fall
asleep in
the movie! I only had about 4 hours of sleep a night last year looking
after my
father, and so I don't know whether my falling asleep all the time is
physiological or psychological - but I suspect it's both. A friend invited
me to
a party, and I didn't know if I could cope. I had the feeling I would walk in
there and make a giant scene by suddenly shout ing to the whole room,
"Both my parents have just died!!! But I didn't - my friend was very happy
with my behaviour. :) Luckily I still have some of my sense of humour
left, and it peeks through to make me laugh at myself...

Smoking has not been an issue for me - I gave it up 25 years ago. But
whenever I
have ever thought of it, the thought of harming my children with the smoke
has
been too much for my conscience - so that's always been enough for me to not
have a second thought. However, if I had no family, I probably would not smoke
anyway. I watched my mother die of lung cancer, and I am too into natural
healing,
alternative health care, etc., to do anything so stupid again. When I
started smoking
we didn't know what we now know about the effects of nicotine and smoke on
the body.

This is
>different from not killing yourself because it would hurt their feelings,
>and just waiting for them to leave you alone so you can die in peace, which
>is what I feel Robert leaning towards.  Robert, is this your mood?

Yes, it's different. My distress was situational, not any kind of chronic
depression,
so I am able to use various techniques to get myself past whatever I need
to get
past - or at least this is what I tell myself.  And I have had to use
everything I can
think of, and still am, to get through the events of the past few years.
Everything
from nutrition, to humour, to just letting time
pass, to letting my friends comfort me, to keeping busy, to trying to analyze
everything to better understand what has happened, and to better see myself
and the other people in my life...massage, flowers, my animals, Victoria's
Secret
lacy stuff - you name it, I use it. And writing...writing, writing,
writing...that helps.
Writing out all the events. And reading. I also go to a weekly meeting of a
small
(5 of us)Grief  Group at Hospice, for those who have experienced very recent
deaths. I feel as though I am functioning better, and then I go to the
group and
find myself wracked with deep sobs for the whole hour and a half.  And I am
very raw - any kind of hurt  sends me into a tailspin. So...I'm coping, but
clearly
my  subconscious still has a great deal to deal with - my heart still feels
very broken.

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:10:11 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <19980309215825.AAC10561@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:57:53
-0500, you wrote:

>At 08:00 PM 3/9/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>>Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:13:37
>>-0500, you wrote:
>>
>>>At 02:15 PM 3/8/98 -0700, Robert wrote:
>
>>>>I can't hold on only for the sake of "others" though they are my
>>>>children or my wife or my students or my friends or my community or my
>>>>god.
>>>
>>>This shook me. There have been times in my life when I was not sure
>>>if I could "hold on" - but when I thought about my children I simply had
>>>to hold on. However, my circumstances may have been very different
>>>from yours. To me, causing my children pain is worse, I suppose, than
>>>causing myself pain. I don't say this to judge you - your comment just
>>>struck me because my children have been at least my excuse to not
>>>give up, not smoke, etc.
>
>>The real issue is not pleasing these other people, and having them fulfill
>>our lives.
>
>No, JoAnne, the real issue for me is loving these people.
>
>>Julienne, I feel that if you were somehow forced into a situation without
>>those same people, you would respect yourself enough not to smoke, for
>>example, and would form new relationships with new people that have the
>>same positive character your current relationships have.  You would honor
>>the relationship you had with your family even if they were gone.
>
>JoAnne, I could not even imagine my children being gone. I think if that
>happened
>I would not want to live. I am sure I would go on, but I can't imagine it.
>When my
>father died this last November, I felt so much grief I didn't know if I
>could ever
>enjoy life again - the pain was unbearable. I couldn't sleep, eat, talk to
>my friends.

Of course.  This is normal.  This is why people have a period of mourning.
But that does not mean that the rest of the world will stop for you.

I will say something that you will probably not want to hear:  if you are
in mourning it is your responsibility to remove yourself from situations
that are painful to you.  If no one has let you know this then it's not
your fault, but you should know it.  It's not fair to you to deal with
hurtful things, or to the people you deal with to have to walk on eggshells
in situations that should be just normal everyday situations, where the
participants are expected to be in reasonably good emotional health.

>Smoking has not been an issue for me - I gave it up 25 years ago. But
>whenever I
>have ever thought of it, the thought of harming my children with the smoke
>has
>been too much for my conscience - so that's always been enough for me to not
>have a second thought. However, if I had no family, I probably would not smoke
>anyway. I watched my mother die of lung cancer, and I am too into natural
>healing,
>alternative health care, etc., to do anything so stupid again. When I
>started smoking
>we didn't know what we now know about the effects of nicotine and smoke on
>the body.

I simply used the example you suggested, I didn't mean that you were a
smoke fiend.  And what you say affirms my positive belief in you that you
don't have to have hostages to your behavior to make you act responsibly.
You can do it on your own, because you respect yourself.

The thing is, Robert's depression was beginning to overwhelm him to the
point where he was questioning his ability to deal with himself
responsibly, and the hostage approach was failing.  It's not a character
flaw, it's a problem he's facing.

>This is
>>different from not killing yourself because it would hurt their feelings,
>>and just waiting for them to leave you alone so you can die in peace, which
>>is what I feel Robert leaning towards.  Robert, is this your mood?
>
>Yes, it's different. My distress was situational, not any kind of chronic
>depression,
>so I am able to use various techniques to get myself past whatever I need
>to get
>past - or at least this is what I tell myself.  And I have had to use
>everything I can
>think of, and still am, to get through the events of the past few years.
>Everything
>from nutrition, to humour, to just letting time
>pass, to letting my friends comfort me, to keeping busy, to trying to analyze
>everything to better understand what has happened, and to better see myself
>and the other people in my life...massage, flowers, my animals, Victoria's
>Secret
>lacy stuff - you name it, I use it. And writing...writing, writing,
>writing...that helps.
>Writing out all the events. And reading. I also go to a weekly meeting of a
>small
>(5 of us)Grief  Group at Hospice, for those who have experienced very recent
>deaths. I feel as though I am functioning better, and then I go to the
>group and
>find myself wracked with deep sobs for the whole hour and a half.  And I am
>very raw - any kind of hurt  sends me into a tailspin.

This is the reason you need to keep yourself from environments that are
harmful to you.  As Anita suggested.

>So...I'm coping, but
>clearly
>my  subconscious still has a great deal to deal with - my heart still feels
>very broken.

>From my experience:  Since my father died nearly six years ago I have had a
part of my heart permanently broken.  It does not go away, it does not
"heal," you just get accustomed to it with time.

-JoAnne
---
I gave up on spamblocking.  Sigh.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:51:35 +0000
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: I'm on 60 a day - Help.
In-Reply-To:  <19980309215825.AAC10561@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear All,

This Wednesday is national non smoking day in Britain. For the last two
weeks and as part of my new approach to life, I've decided to quit. Note,
not decided to try to, but to actually do it.
Being as I am on around 60 a day, this is not going to be easy. I am
spending a fortune on cigarettes too, since the average price here for a
packet is around $4.20. Much easier/cheaper to kill yourself in America.
I'm doing this for me, nobody else, I smoked all the time I was pregnant, a
despicable action, but they gave me a choice of either giving up all sugar
or stopping smoking. Giving up sugar and jabbing myself in the stomach 4
times a day seemed a more viable option in my case. And while to be honest,
I'm not exactly proud I smoked, I'm not exactly ashamed of it either, and
while I would rather I hadn't..I did, I can't change that now, I can
however try to stop polluting my daughters enviroment from hereon in and
thats also a motivating factor. (Btw, anybody sending a flame on the merits
of my smoking while preggers will get a predictable response, as I am still
a smoker and suffering from that particular mentality... aside from that, I
totally admit to being selfish, and yeah yeah, I heard it all before)

So I would like if possible some support in what will be some cranky days
ahead, and any suggestions on how to quit and stay quitted from those who
have managed to do so. A herculean feat for which I applaud and admire you.

Yours in the midst of a of smoke filled haze, which should clear after
Wednesday with gods help and a few dozen nicotine patches..

Dolores.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 21:59:11 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: I'm on 60 a day - Help.
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.2.32.19980310005135.006a5cdc@easynet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:51 AM 3/10/98 +0000, Delores wrote:

>So I would like if possible some support (in giving up smoking)in what
will be some cranky days
>ahead, and any suggestions on how to quit and stay quitted from those who
>have managed to do so. A herculean feat for which I applaud and admire you.

Delores, I can tell you what helped me. I had been reading Gurdjieff, and
he said that we
all tend to think of ourselves in terms of a rather rigid character
description, such as
"I am impatient, lazy, and clumsy." (or whatever list of qualities you want
to insert. He suggested
that one does not usually act the same way in all situations: one may be
impatient with one's
great-aunt Tess, but very patient with children. Different people and
different situations
evoke different aspects of our character. He describes each of us as not
having just one
Delores, one Julienne, but many Delores inside.

So...if one wants to change a habit, one takes those parts of Delores which
want to give
up smoking, and put them in charge. When one of the other aspects of you
wants to
smoke, just call forth the non-smoking Deloreses, and have them chase away the
parts of you which want to smoke.

Worked for me...

You might also try the patch, which I hear works for many, or hypnosis.

I also found that doing it gradually just didn't work - cold turkey was the
only way. You
might also keep a plate of grapes, celery bits, or other healthy snack
bites beside
you to keep your mouth busy until you get through this.

Good luck!

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:02:20 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Julienne


> I was taking care of my father by myself 24
hours a day -
he couldn't even walk. I couldn't even leave him with other people
because he
wouldn't eat or drink without me - and when others changed him his skin
was
so fragile they left him bleeding. I woke up each morning wondering if
he
>would be dead.>

Now, I understand your deep sorrow.
Other people left you alone, and further some people attacked you.

If I had subscribed here at that time, ( I subscribed here 98.1.7)
 I could have talked with you.

I feel that because, after your father died, you can't be adapted to
new situation, and thus don't know how to act in everyday life,
 you are still confused.
Of course, you are trying to overcome it, and I think it's fortunate.


>I was - when my father was dying my family totally
abandoned him - none of them even visited him, except for my sons.
I learned such sad things about life last year - even within my own
>family...>

I know you can't forgive others who left you and your father alone.
You were too attached to your father, so it might be difficult to get
out of your loss.

You had to struggle for your father's life.
And you loved your father, but I think you had to struggle against
your desire for freeing yourself from your responsibility.
(I am sorry what I said, It's only my own feelings and experiences.
 For I know It's too difficult to take care of a patient, I said like
that).

It's not your fault and other's fault for your father to die.
Please forgive yourself and others in mind.
There are no persons who are perfect.

I will pray for your peace of mind.

Meeseo.





_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:14:04 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Anita ... Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anita,

I want to thank you for your support.  You do have the sense that not
all things are covered by the diagnistic codes of the American
Psychological Association.  And, not being so covered, they still do
have a legitimacy in human terms.

> I think that  therapy helped  me to give up grandiose and romantic
> notions about the importance of suffering, and  retreat into
> destructive  self-indulgence. I  became free of past and  at the same
> time more meaningfully attached to it.

This is what I'm hoping to find with this present journey.  Serving as a
healer (psychotherapist) for others has only acccented the need for my
own healing.  My wife wonders why I can't do for myself what she sees me
doing for others.  She does accept and support my journey, and that
makes taking this journey all the more precious to me.

write on,
Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:16:07 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Janell ... Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Janell,

Thank you for these words of encouragement:

> Please, write more as you continue your journey. I'll decide whether
> to read it or not.  ... <snip> ... Best of luck on your journey.

I will continue to write, to feel may way along this path in both poetry
and prose.

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:16:17 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Julienne ... Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julienne,

As I would have expected, you indeed are a caring person.

> There have been times in my life when I was not sure if I could
> "hold on" - but when I thought about my children I simply had
> to hold on.

My wife has the same belief system as you.  I wonder if that is another
difference in gender.  I am very close to my children and have not had a
relational crisis with any of them.  Yet, when the shadow looms big, the
pain threatens, I have a hard time finding these feelings to bring me
back.  I sincerely hope for the sake of my wife and children that I
never lose that grip on hope.

> Robert, please make noise if you need be. I think it was you who asked
> me about my journey...(I may be wrong). One post from me on my journey
> and I felt a degree of silencing on this list also. For a list which
> defines iself in psychological terms, this is a very strange list.

Yes, it is a strange list.  I feel in it a potential that is not found
elsewhere.  Though there are extremely painful and embarassing moments
here, the promise is also here to go above and beyond as I've found no
where else.

> When my father died, the response was small and most perfunctory.

I thought I responded (I sincerely hope I did).  All death has been
impacting upon me here.  And, I have not hesitated to speak of this.
Unfortunately I never have felt any remorse or sadness for my own
father's death or that of most of my grandparents.  I lived through
these events with perfected dissociation.  Otherwise, I would have
reacted in anger at their shades.  Not so the deaths of my in-laws or my
brother.  These deaths shook me deeply.

> I have been hoping I would feel like contributing to this list again,
> but I feel that the atmosphere is very strange...hostile,
> unsupportive, angry.

I refuse to give up on the list.  There are people on this list who are
very deep, spiritual, loving, and filled with light.  I know that in
staying with this place, I will one day be able to dialogue with these
people in ways that may return in some small measure that which they
have given me.  I refuse to invest in the shadow of this group.  Yes, it
does have a shadow.  But, the shadow isn't the sum total of this group-
just like it isn't the sum total of any individual.

> I am glad Meeseo is here, and sometimes that Hoon is...but sometimes I
> am not sure what Hoon is thinking either. There seems to be a wall
> between people here...

There is always a wall between people as I find.  I don't think that we
can truly get past the borders of "self".  Even in the f2f domaine we
bump into persona and projection that hides the fullness of each person
that we meet ... we are built with blinders.

> Robert...I wish you well...and I hope you will feel healed.

Merci, chere Julienne

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:16:48 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Jim ... Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jim,

Thanks for the support.  I appreciate that you took the time to listen
to my words.  Perhaps that we've truly met for the first time we can now
get on with dialogue of relation.

> Stripped of dramatic phrasing and careful composition, your
> words have the ring of truth - now I can empathize and I wish
> you well in your 'journey'.

I hope that one day you will see the same ring of truth in the words I
write so carefully.  I reach deep for these words and try not to
mis-represent myself and thus dishonour my "self".

> In situations such as yours it may be better to write to fulfil your
> own needs and so be less vulnerable to the group?

But what if I perceive my needs as being in the realm of "relation"?
Does this not deserve risking?  I value those that I meet here.  I trust
in the words spoken here.  Perhaps that is naive, but this is how I am
wired?  Speaking with openness does make me vulnerable, but it does have
its rewards ...

> Robert, you speak of me echoing your "inner judge" - be careful of
> inner judges.

My analyst is helping me with this and other issues.  Thanks for your
concern and time to connect.

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:16:56 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Meeseo ... Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Meeseo,

Thank you for the pictures.  They spoke to me as if they were hiaku
poetry.  They evoked dream images, dreamscapes. I received these as I
was making the change in addresses and so I failed to respond at the
moment.  Then the moment disappeared and I got stuck in a place of low
energy with the beginning of ananlysis.

Your gentleness is part of the reason that I stay here and believe in
this place.  Others here are gentle as well.  This is a good place with
good people.

>  Before, I sent my e-mail(with pictures) to him individually,
>  because It contains pictures , and further  I think  others in
>  Psyber-L  dislike my reaction to someone's sufferings.
>  Most people were silent  and I thought so.

This silence isn't always negative.  For example, Susan Swann speaks of
here lengthly illness.  HooN tells us that he is listening.  Charles is
listening ... I'm learning that silence is not fully rejection.  I still
do feel some of that though.  Silence does tend at times to make feel
feel invisible as though my words are not heard, not worthy of being
heard.  But then, voices like yours push those self-negating thoughts
away and rekindle the trust in "others" even in their silence.

> Don't be angry.
> I wait for your posts about your journey.

Thank you Meeseo.  I try to hold on to the anger until it disappears.  I
will continue to write and to share my journey ... even if it is only so
that I can here the echo of my own footsteps.

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:17:03 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      HooN ... Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

HooN,

The hazards of communication both f2f and on-line ...

> Hazardous among all the other conundrums of interpersonal
> communication which coincide with each of our multivarious
> projections, needs, representations, etc. and etc.

The hazards of humans trying to converse with humans, each constricted
by history, culture, language, and different senses of reality about
self and other.

> Surely Robert has enjoyed
> support previously, and not enjoyed non-support.
>
> Umm, the record is quite long and extensive, yes?

Yes ... that's why I stay here and feel somewhat as though I "belong".

> As for Robert who's voice rings not like a brand new bell but
> nonetheless, to me, like a old weathered, rung many many times bell...
>
> I tell him and us and me this:
>
> "honesty doesn't have to be beautiful"
>
> and I'm very appreciative for everybody's honesty...

Even silence is honest.

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:17:28 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      JoAnne ... Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne

> If Robert is in such a state that he can't depend on that kind of
> motivation to keep on living, then he has a bigger challenge to face.

Motivation for living has to based on finding oneself "worthy" of life.
As you so rightly put it, I could easily lose these precious people in
my life to some catastrophe.  What then?

> The real issue is not pleasing these other people, and having them
> fulfill our lives.  It's in fulfilling our own lives with the work
> we do, the relationships we have ...

That is my real issue, the impetus behind the "wounded healer's
journey", a process that has the support of my family and those who know
me in the f2f domaine.  I'm learning ...

> This is different from not killing yourself because it would hurt
> their feelings, and just waiting for them to leave you alone so you
> can die in peace, which is what I feel Robert leaning towards.
>  Robert, is this your mood?

Let me say that the mood is more of "if I'm not present and they don't
notice, then I'm as good as dead already" or "if I just disappear then
their lives will move on from  the stuck place that I find myself".
These aren't rational thoughts.  But, when the darkness descends who
worries about rationality.  I'm safe from these scenarios, but, the
depression is real and is a frequent visitor none-the-less.  The history
of this is and remains absent for the most part for this group.

JoAnne, thank you for encouraging me to continue voicing my journey
here.

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:05:58 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: I'm on 60 a day - Help.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Dolores - give it your best shot, quitting was one of the best self-respect
infusions I ever received.  As for what worked for me:

Stage 1 - quit smoking in front of wife and kids and never in the house
Stage 2 - stayed smoke free for 48 hours by being away for the w/e with the
family
Stage 3 - cheating was allowed but I had to buy them and they had to be Camels
                Plain - none of those sissy filters or 'light' cigarettes

Result - I cheated once and my last memory of smoking is of hurling my lungs
across the room while looking for a place to throw up.  Now I can't even think
of smoking without feeling vaguely ill.

If that fails - get a copy of Bob Newhart's album where he pretends to be Sir
Walter Raleigh's agent in  England taking his call to announce the discovery of
tobacco.

"  What's that Walt?  You take dead leaves ... you chop them up ... roll them
in paper ... put them in your mouth ... then what?  Set fire to them and breath
the smoke!?!??  Shur Walt ... I believe you ... absolutely ... it'll sell a
million (hangs up the phone laughing)"

Cheers Dolores.

...Jim

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 23:12:53 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <19980310030220.23184.rocketmail@send1b.yahoomail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:02 PM 3/9/98 -0800, Meeseo wrote:
>Julienne Wrote:
>
>> I was taking care of my father by myself 24
>hours a day - he couldn't even walk. I couldn't even leave him with other
people
>because he wouldn't eat or drink without me - and when others changed him
his skin
>was so fragile they left him bleeding. I woke up each morning wondering if
>he would be dead.>
>
>Now, I understand your deep sorrow.
>Other people left you alone, and further some people attacked you.
>
>If I had subscribed here at that time, ( I subscribed here 98.1.7)
> I could have talked with you.

Meeseo, I think you would have, and I thank you. :) x0x0

>I feel that because, after your father died, you can't be adapted to
>new situation, and thus don't know how to act in everyday life,
> you are still confused.
>Of course, you are trying to overcome it, and I think it's fortunate.

I am not so much confused, Meeseo, as in shock. I not only lost my
parents, but  two very dear friends died, and 36 of my animals were killed...
and more.

I am actually looking very normal to the world...I'm not doing weird
things - not drinking, freaking out, or anything. When the funeral home
drove away with my father's body, I screamed at the night sky - very
loudly, for a few seconds. But I'm working without a break, and
handling all my parents' affairs, etc. I'm normal on the outside :) -
it's just the inside that's so sad.

>>I was - when my father was dying my family totally
>abandoned him - none of them even visited him, except for my sons.
>I learned such sad things about life last year - even within my own

>>family...>
>
>I know you can't forgive others who left you and your father alone.
>You were too attached to your father, so it might be difficult to get
>out of your loss.

Yes, I can forgive them. I am sad for my father that they did this to
him, and I am sad for my brothers that they did it to him. People
keep saying that what goes round comes round, as though that
might comfort me, but I don't want my brothers hurt. I just  want
them to become softer in their lives...

>You had to struggle for your father's life.
>And you loved your father, but I think you had to struggle against
>your desire for freeing yourself from your responsibility.
>(I am sorry what I said, It's only my own feelings and experiences.
> For I know It's too difficult to take care of a patient, I said like
>that).

No...My family put my father in a nursing home, and he begged to
come home, but no one would let him. He is 6'4", and he went
down to 152 pounds. He was dying. When my mother died, I
brought my father home to his home, with his doctor's blessing.
The experience of looking after him was physically exhausting,
and emotionally wracking. But, in the 10 months I had him at home,
I got him back up to 190 pounds - giving him all sorts of vitamins,
supplements, healthy food, etc. He came home in such misery,
and my brothers went to court to have him put back in the nursing
home, and had police and town agencies here at the house to
harass us again and again. I kept them away from my father.
The courts supported us...and my father got to have a much
better death than he would have had. He was so happy. He came

home not talking, depressed, dehydrated - and knowing his wife,
whom he loved with all his heart, had just died. I have photos of
what happened before he died. He started to laugh again, and
to be happy, and he knew he was loved.

And I am not sorry I did this, because I learned things about him
and about myself that I hadn't known before. I watched my
children learn from watching their grandfather, about bravery
and love. And my children also learned about me, and are very
proud of me. I know this experience has deepened their capacity
for caring. There was a great deal of love last year between my
father and my boys and me...and it was one of the most valuable
and powerful experiences of my life. There is no question in my
mind that I am glad that I did it, and that I would do it again without
question if the occasion arose.

>It's not your fault and other's fault for your father to die.
>Please forgive yourself and others in mind.
>There are no persons who are perfect.

I don't feel guilt for my father's death. I know that he wouldn't have
lived this last year without me. I have forgiven the people involved,
but I am also going to keep working to make what changes I can
in the world that lead to these types of things happening.

>I will pray for your peace of mind.

I know no one is perfect, and you said something like that in your
last post, which I was going to respond to tonight. This is why I
can forgive my brothers - and a system which should have taken
better care of my father. But there is a part of me which sees all
people as perfect...even as they grow. My father was perfect, for
all the things about him which distressed me as I grew up. The
"faults" in people I love are nothing beside the things about
them which are amazing and wonderful and exciting and
touching.  My children are perfect - and they know I think so. :)

What I am feeling now, Meeseo, is not about all the intellectual
issues. I have read a great deal on death for years, and
counseled many through deaths. I know the stages of grief and
the studies connected to it . I know how the process of death
works in the body, even. I suppose, intellectually, that if I
am like other people, which I assume I am, that I will get past
this, but right now I am a grieving state...and my mind doesn't
care much about reason and logic - it just needs to scream a lot.
But don't worry...I don't scream out loud :) - just on the inside. But
I think my screaming will be part of what helps me heal. I had to
have a wisdom tooth out two weeks after my father died, and it
was a very complicated extraction because the root was curved
into a "u". The dentist knew my father as I had brought my father
there three months earlier. And I started to cry when the dentist
asked me about him. The dentist said to me, "You know, you
are going to be all right". And I asked him how he knew that.
He said,  "Because you are letting yourself feel ." As I have
spent so many years encouraging others to feel, how can
I now just bury my own feelings?

Thank you for being here, Meeseo...

Love,

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:10:00 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne Schmitz wrote:

> Of course.  This is normal.  This is why people have a period of
> mourning.> But that does not mean that the rest of the world will stop for you.> > I will say something that you will probably not want to hear:  if you> are> in mourning it is your responsibility to remove yourself from> situations> that are painful to you.  If no one has let you know this then it's> not> your fault, but you should know it.  It's not fair to you to deal with> hurtful things, or to the people you deal with to have to walk on> eggshells> in situations that should be just normal everyday situations, where> the> participants are expected to be in reasonably good emotional health.


I disagree with this approach and feel it is a selfishness in modern
society which leads us to even say such things to one another. It used
to be that people dressed in mourning for a least a year after the death
of a close family member--this functioned to  say to others "treat this
person gently; s/he has suffered a great loss."  It is true that the
mourning person was also expected to curtail his/her activities in some
ways, but in no way was s/he expected to disappear.  People in normal
emotional health should be expected to reach out to one another--and
none of this silliness of saying "you should be over this by now." The
shirking of this strikes me as pure cowardice and an unwillingness to
help shoulder the pain of one another. Perhaps this is an offshoot of
over-population, such as rats/mice in overpopulated situations beginning
to turn on one another, but we MUST combat this notion that only happy
faces are allowed out in society.  This can only serve to increase the
pain by saying that pain is illegitimate, much as in how Jim seems to be
saying to Robert "don't have pain; suck it up and get back to work, you
lazy S.O.B."  Denied pain can only go underground and come back to kill
us later--or lead us to kill one another with viciousness as we lash out
from our own pain to inflict it on others.
        One of the opportunities of this psyber-space is the possibility for
such support. It doesn't always happen--sometimes we lash out to one
another in our own pain. But we at least shouldn't be telling one
another not to want others to tiptoe about or to walk on eggshells for
us in times of great pain--One reason I have listened for so very long
is that the pain here was too much, the infliction of pain by one
another too hard to bear. Honestly I see no point in it.  It makes me
dread the possibility of Wilbur returning.  Yes, he had some wonderfully
insightful things to say, but I know for me that the insight was not
compensation for the viciousness that came with it.

Julienne--I love the picture of you seeking refuge in soft lacy things.
There can be great comfort in the purely feminine-- and what a lovely
insight into the feminine side of you.  I've tended to take refuge from
my griefs of the last year in work, but that is catching up with me as
illness after illness drags me down into total exhaustion--I suspect
adding something soft and lacy might be far more enjoyable and allow the
grieving part of me to open up too. How wise of you.

                                Susan


>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 01:05:27 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Anita ... Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <3504AFFC.411F@cybersurf.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:14 PM 3/9/98 -0700, Robert wrote:

>This is what I'm hoping to find with this present journey.  Serving as a
>healer (psychotherapist) for others has only acccented the need for my
>own healing.  My wife wonders why I can't do for myself what she sees me
>doing for others.

But why should you have to? If you were a massage therapist, wouldn't you
still have the right to be massaged by another? This is recognized  by the
medical community which declares that a doctor is a fool to doctor
him/herself.

Apart from anything else, we human beings need support and guidance on
our journeys, and it is wise to search out the appropriate guides for each
part of the journey. You are going through a black hole, and you need a
guide who is understanding of the challenges you are facing to help you
through.

Your wife may be afraid and resentful, because it is scary when someone
important in our lives is suffering and in deep trouble. If something is
happening to you, it can be threatening to her, too. She is probably
worried about you, and frustrated that you aren't able to cope at every
moment of your life. But she is bound to have moments when she needs to
turn to others for help in an area of her life where she is usually an expert.

Your wife is probably worried for you...and her worry may come out as
anger or impatience. She may need some reassurance as well...

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 02:39:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <35347c56.435757239@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:10 AM 3/10/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:57:53

>Of course.  This is normal.  This is why people have a period of mourning.
>But that does not mean that the rest of the world will stop for you.
>
>I will say something that you will probably not want to hear:  if you are
>in mourning it is your responsibility to remove yourself from situations
>that are painful to you.  If no one has let you know this then it's not
>your fault, but you should know it.  It's not fair to you to deal with
>hurtful things, or to the people you deal with to have to walk on eggshells
>in situations that should be just normal everyday situations, where the
>participants are expected to be in reasonably good emotional health.

Ah, JoAnne. I have had friends in mourning, and it never occurred to
me to ask them "to remove (themselves) from any situations."  Do
you want the grieving to hide their feelings or at least not bother the
human community with them? I didn't walk on eggshells when my
friends had losses - I was there with as much warmth, support,
hugs, food - whatever they needed. Do you know that when one
spouse dies, the other often follows soon after? This is because
of the loss of love, of human contact. Those who are grieving don't
need isolation and shunning - they need as much contact as they
can take.

And are you suggesting that to be grieving is to be in less then
"reasonably good emotional health"? Grief has nothing at all to do
with emotional health - it is a normal and healthy response to great
loss. At Hospice our group leader said two weeks ago that the
degree of grief depends on the degree of love, "Grief is love".

I don't know what you consider "normal" life, but to me what is
"normal" is a broad spectrum of people - billions of people living
lives dealing with one issue after another, from birth to death, to
illness to crises of the soul, to carefree moments - to you name it.
Surely it is important to be there for each other as much as we can.
We are all going to go through some versions of these events
sooner or later.

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:32:27 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <3504BD18.388FB0E6@sunbird.usd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:10 PM 3/9/98 -0600, Susan wrote:
> People in normal
>emotional health should be expected to reach out to one another--and
>none of this silliness of saying "you should be over this by now."

Two weeks ago, at my Hospice Grief Group, I came bouncing in and
told the group I was "doing much better"...and the group leader used
that comment as a jumping off point to let us know that there was
no "better" - that we shouldn't feel any pressure to behave in any
particular way - especially not to feel we had to be "better". The group
is such a comfort to me, because it is the only place I don't feel as
though I have to apologize - where I can cry, be sad, talk about my
parents.

As to when one should be "over" it - there was a 20/20 (?) show on TV
about a month ago dicussing death. What they concluded is that
we never really get over the deaths of people we love - that we can
still have moments of being overwhelmed by grief years later.

Some are uncomfortable with people like I, or like Robert, or
anyone going through a life crisis, because it is as if they are
afraid what is happening to us is "catching".  Even with little
children, we tell them to "stop crying", etc. We continually tell
each to stuff feelings. But these feelings have to come out
somewhere, and they come out in illnesses, and even in wars,
which may well be projected group anger and grief.

But we at least shouldn't be telling one
>another not to want others to tiptoe about or to walk on eggshells for
>us in times of great pain--One reason I have listened for so very long
>is that the pain here was too much, the infliction of pain by one
>another too hard to bear.

This was what I tried to write to Walter about - rather than putting
it on the list where nothing seemed to be heard anyway. But Walter
ignored me when I tried to tell him how painful the attacks were
for me - and why.

> Honestly I see no point in it.  It makes me
>dread the possibility of Wilbur returning.  Yes, he had some wonderfully
>insightful things to say, but I know for me that the insight was not
>compensation for the viciousness that came with it.

I couldn't deal with Wilbur's anger - his threats to track me down
off-list and have me hurt. For what? And his images of hurting
people physically scared me. He spoke of hurting his friend's ribs
in school, and I hurt my ribs the next week - I'm sure that my hurt
was psychological. But again - it meant I couldn't lift my father -
a real problem when others weren't gentle enough. My father
even needed to be lifted upright in bed as he couldn't lift himself
when he slid down - and there was rarely anyone else here to help.

I'm also apprehensive about Wilbur coming back, and I have to
ask what Wilbur carries for this list. Does he carry the anger
of a number of people here? Does he express anger you want
to see out there? It's like watching the school-yard bully beat up
other children. How can you enjoy it?

>Julienne--I love the picture of you seeking refuge in soft lacy things.
>There can be great comfort in the purely feminine-- and what a lovely
>insight into the feminine side of you.  I've tended to take refuge from
>my griefs of the last year in work, but that is catching up with me as
>illness after illness drags me down into total exhaustion--I suspect
>adding something soft and lacy might be far more enjoyable and allow the

>grieving part of me to open up too. How wise of you.

I did this for my mother as she was dying. I bought her
beautiful bottles of bath oils...something to look pretty and give
her a little luxury. And pretty nightgowns for when she had to
spend some time in bed. A beautiful beaded shawl for bed as
well...not really meant for bed, but to give her a little glamour. And
lots of flowers...I filled my father's room with flowers this last year,
too...and bushes with tropical scents. Giant Amaryllis - he loved the
big splashes of colour. He taught me how to garden when I was
little - so this was one way I had to repay him. I always remembered
my parents filling our home with flowers when I was small... so it
seemed a good thing to do for us all.

Susan, why don't you contact Hospice in your area? they have grief
groups open to anyone - even people who haven't had loved ones
in the Hospice programme. It is a place where there is real support,
knowledgeable help and comfort. And others who are sharing your
experience in some ways...

You also might want to find little things to do which make you feel
good - like going to a movie, taking a drive, getting an ice cream sundae -
just doing a few little things every day to perk up your spirits can all
add up. And the most important thing, I think, is having confidantes
and people around you who love you.

Love,

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:50:32 +0000
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: I'm on 60 a day - Help.
In-Reply-To:  <19980310025914.AAC6466@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Jim & Julienne,

Who is Gurdjieff? Do you remember the name of the book? I think maybe I can
apply those principles to other areas of my life, not just to quitting
smoking. I feel that I am the sum of many parts, and sometimes bossy
Dolores does have to say, lazy Dolores get off your ass etc. This is
absoloutly the best way for me to give up, its something I can totally
relate to.
Thanks for that advice.

I also agree with Jim, time has come to manifest my new found self respect,
by a) quitting and b)staying quit. I think I will be inordinatly proud of
myself, with some justification, and I can join the ranks of the non
smokers that glare at you in Restaurants. God it's tedious queing for the
smoking tables, because they are in such a minority coverwise they are
always full.

While I was in hospital and forced to smoke considerably less than I had
previous, because it involved a long trek down to the bowels of the
hospital earth, I suddenly found, I could smell more, and I smelt my jacket
and it smelt revolting, sort of a combination of chip fat, toddler vomit
and stale cigarette smoke. I was surprised I hadn't noticed this before, so
I earmarked it down to go to the drycleaners (At that point I hadn't made
the connection). After a couple of days, I picked it back up again, and it
didn't smell at all. I thought I must have been imagining it, till I
realised, it must have been the lack of cigarettes. Now I am wondering if
the roses outside my living room do in fact have an aroma, rather than
being the sterile and unperfumed creatures I had thought before. I can't
wait to find out in a couple of months.

The Walter Raleigh think is funny Jim, and of course dead accurate.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:33:49 +0200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Julienne,

You wrote:
>Well, I think your attack was excessive. I had just lost my mother as well,
>and I  did tell you all about it.

I'm sorry Julienne,  but I didn't hear you. I stopped to read  the gender
war -thread   at an early  stage, because it  didn't  teach me anything new
and I couldn't bear  it. I had  heard  the same  argumentation so  many
times  in my former life. I think that I  stopped to read  soon after  that
your wise son  remarked, that Wilbur must  be a bit  cracked.  At that time
I still  supposed that  you as a more mature person would  withdraw  from
the  battle, but  unfortunately  you didn't.  Perhaps it was  "the  battered
wife -phenomenon,"  to which you pointed.  The battered wives never stopped
before they have been beaten up. I didn't join  to the battle until at the
end of it, and then I attacked.  I agreed, that I was  excessive,  and
wanted to hurt you.  So a nasty person  I am not at all supportive. My
feeling-function must be somehow underdeveloped. I couldn't  feel anything,
but  guilt, when my father  died.  I  became chronic depressive,  couldn't
write anymore. Three years after  his death I  went to psychotherapy.
        It is quite natural that fathers will die before children, but to my
mind it is  unendurable, that  36 of your animals have been killed. I really
can feel sympathy for  you,  but  I don't  want  to  know, how it happened,
and   what kind of animals they were. I  cannot bear to hear. My  heart will
break for animals, not for  people, if not they are children or madmen.

Cheers to you
Anita

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:58:20 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <19980310093217.AAA13946@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:32:27
-0500, you wrote:

>I couldn't deal with Wilbur's anger - his threats to track me down
>off-list and have me hurt.

If he did that, I missed it.  Please provide a quotation.  It's cowardly to
attack someone when he's not even here to defend himself from your
accusations of criminal activities.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:58:20 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <3504BD18.388FB0E6@sunbird.usd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

A message from the vicious bitch, please delete this right now if you're in
pain and can't handle it.  I mean it.

What have I got to lose, after all.  Susan has certainly decided I'm no
good.

Hello Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>, on Mon, 9 Mar 1998 22:10:00
-0600, you wrote:

(and wouldn't it be wonderful to have a name like Swan.  Lovely and
feminine and certainly appropriate in any situation.  Nothing like my name,
or me.)

>JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
>
>> Of course.  This is normal.  This is why people have a period of
>> mourning.> But that does not mean that the rest of the world will stop for you.
>> I will say something that you will probably not want to hear:  if you> are
>> in mourning it is your responsibility to remove yourself from> situations
>> that are painful to you.  If no one has let you know this then it's> not
>> your fault, but you should know it.  It's not fair to you to deal with
>> hurtful things, or to the people you deal with to have to walk on> eggshells
>> in situations that should be just normal everyday situations, where> the
>> participants are expected to be in reasonably good emotional health.
>
>I disagree with this approach and feel it is a selfishness in modern
>society which leads us to even say such things to one another. It used
>to be that people dressed in mourning for a least a year after the death
>of a close family member--this functioned to  say to others "treat this
>person gently; s/he has suffered a great loss."  It is true that the
>mourning person was also expected to curtail his/her activities in some
>ways, but in no way was s/he expected to disappear.  People in normal
>emotional health should be expected to reach out to one another--and
>none of this silliness of saying "you should be over this by now."

I haven't said anything like that, Susan, perhaps you're jumping to a
conclusion?  Maybe I was unclear, but I'll make myself clear now.

I never ever EVER said "you should be over this by now."  In fact, I said
that it takes time to get accustomed to that pain and that you never "get
over it."

I think it's a natural consequence of this that when you're raw it's a
disservice to you and the people you deal with who aren't your close
friends and relatives to force them to deal with you totally raw.  It's a
disservice to strangers to impose on them with your grief and demand that
they care personally about your grief.  And you're not going to be happy
with the results.

It's a matter of degree.  Julienne should not just "disappear."  But as you
say, the person in mourning does not go out and gloom and doom all over
every event, weeping at the amusement park.

You can't get in an argument saying "here I am, a full participant, ready
to kick ass," and then when the going gets tough revert to "stop picking on
me, I'm in mourning and grief, I lost 37 animals and my mommy and daddy and
two friends" as an answer.  That's dishonest, even if it's not consciously
so.  You know you won't take losing an argument well, why get in one?  Why
pull that kind of stunt?  If you can't make it clear that you aren't fit
for real arguments before starting one, that's putting people in a trick
bag.

I didn't expect everyone on earth to want to know that my father had just
died, that August of 1992, or that everyone I met would want to deal with
it.  I didn't expect the cashier at the supermarket to treat me specially
and I didn't make a point of bringing it up to her.  If I felt I couldn't
do something I just didn't do it.

I spent as much time as possible with family and friends who did care.  It
would hurt me, and upset others, for me to be needy in a place where those
needs can't possibly be met.  I stayed out of nasty situations, I stayed
out of trying arguments, I stayed out of competitive situations.  This was
an important part of healing, it kept me from being opened up again every
second.

It is totally wrong to react out of proportion to other people's actions.
If I do something that would make a normal person say, hey, I don't like
that, and instead you scream in pain and bewilderment like a tortured
animal, that's wrong for you and it's wrong for me.  It's a guilt trip.

>The
>shirking of this strikes me as pure cowardice and an unwillingness to
>help shoulder the pain of one another.

It's not always my responsibility to shoulder everyone else's pain.  I
don't think it's everyone else's responsibility to shoulder my pain either.
I don't require it of you, Susan.  I certainly don't see it from everyone
here.  How much can we shoulder?  I'm not willing to take on the pain of
someone who has contempt for me.  It's an agreement, not an obligation.

>Perhaps this is an offshoot of
>over-population, such as rats/mice in overpopulated situations beginning
>to turn on one another, but we MUST combat this notion that only happy
>faces are allowed out in society.

When someone is so pain-ridden that they can't function in society, they're
not doing any good to go out into it.  As a woman who doesn't smile all the
time I realize that society isn't always happy with the nonsmiling face.
Society should be able to handle a variety of faces, happy, sad, unhappy,
bored, excited. However, screaming in pain is just not appropriate for the
grocery store.

Note the "dress in mourning" you mention.  This is a marker that lets
people know, this is a person in mourning, if you don't want to deal with a
person in mourning then you can avoid it.  Today, we make these people walk
raw through the streets and no one knows that there's a fresh sorrow there,
until they step unwillingly into the middle of it.

The people dressed in mourning also avoided social events for a year.  This
wasn't to punish them.  It was to allow them to not have to deal with happy
laughing gay faces at a time when things do not feel happy, laughing or
gay.  The customs protected the grieving people by isolating them.

Do you want them out there?  Then we either have to have a world where
everyone has to be nicey nicey all the time in case there's a grieving
person in the audience, or a place where these grieving people are hurt all
the time.  Sounds stupid to me.

Does sadness and grief really trump all other emotions?  Does anger have no
place?  Levity?  Detachment?  Each of these is inappropriate for the
grieving person to deal with on a regular basis.  Does that mean we hide
all these away permanently because a grieving person might be listening?

This is what I mean by the grieving person protecting him or herself.
There's no glory, glamour or holiness in laying in the road being run over
by oxcarts.  Get on the sidewalk where you belong.  There are plenty of
sidewalks.

>This can only serve to increase the
>pain by saying that pain is illegitimate, much as in how Jim seems to be
>saying to Robert "don't have pain; suck it up and get back to work, you
>lazy S.O.B."  Denied pain can only go underground and come back to kill
>us later--or lead us to kill one another with viciousness as we lash out
>from our own pain to inflict it on others.

And this is what we see if people are not getting the pain expressed to
receptive people.  And this is what we see when people who are in grief or
mourning are ignored, and they go out into the world and tell everyone that
they have to be treated specially because they lost their husband in the
war in 1943.  Serious passive-aggressive stuff.

The solution is not to make the whole world "grief-friendly" because it can
never be, but for those individuals to do things like grief counseling,
spending time with friends and family who give a damn, and putting
themselves in places that are supportive.  Not all places can or should be
supportive.

>        One of the opportunities of this psyber-space is the possibility for
>such support. It doesn't always happen--sometimes we lash out to one
>another in our own pain. But we at least shouldn't be telling one
>another not to want others to tiptoe about or to walk on eggshells for
>us in times of great pain--One reason I have listened for so very long
>is that the pain here was too much, the infliction of pain by one
>another too hard to bear. Honestly I see no point in it.  It makes me
>dread the possibility of Wilbur returning.  Yes, he had some wonderfully
>insightful things to say, but I know for me that the insight was not
>compensation for the viciousness that came with it.

If this is the place for such support, yes, that's right.  But not every
place is a place for that kind of support and people in grief need to know
that they can't just say, my daddy died, and get everyone to stop and tend
to them.  It makes people uncomfortable at best, angry (like me) at worst,
because it demands something from me that I'm not willing to give.
Especially to someone who makes it clear that she gives less than a fuck
about me.

I'm not going to hack this out with Julienne, who will say in the end that
it's unfair for me to say anything because her mommy and daddy died.  My
daddy died, should I use that?  My cat died after 17 years of close
attachment.  What else have I lost?  House fire.  A drug abuser that I
thought loved me, stealing my money and lying to me about it (the lying was
worse).  Getting fired twice for being female and having a big mouth.
Suicidal friends.

I could go on, the list for every one of us is endless.  Every one of us
has loss and pain and grief.  Of course, *Julienne's* pain is greater than
anyone can possibly imagine.  I have never been nearly as grieved as
*Julienne* and could never understand it.  This is what pushes me to the
point of not caring about her.

I can't care about Julienne because she doesn't care about me.  I'm not
real to her.  My life events are a set of hooks for her judgments on me.
Nothing that has happened to me has produced anything but sickness and
anger and insanity, according to her.  Her solutions for me are to stop
being me, to accept her judgment of me as sick and without worth.  I can't
accept that.

Go ahead Julienne, weep all over it or stamp your widdle foot or be wisely
disappointed in me or healthily outraged and never want to speak to me
again, whatever your choices are.  You've never seen any good in me anyway.
Don't bother to pretend any now.

Susan, if you didn't want to see Wilbur, I guess you'll have to see me
instead, at least in this post.  Tell me again, why is grief okay in public
but not anger?  I don't think you have a good answer.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:37:01 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <199803101833.UAA27409@walrus.megabaud.fi>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:33 PM 3/10/98 +0200, Anita wrote:
>Julienne,
>
>You wrote:
>>Well, I think your attack was excessive. I had just lost my mother as well,
>>and I  did tell you all about it.
>
>I'm sorry Julienne,  but I didn't hear you. I stopped to read  the gender
>war -thread   at an early  stage, because it  didn't  teach me anything new
>and I couldn't bear  it. I had  heard  the same  argumentation so  many
>times  in my former life. I think that I  stopped to read  soon after  that
>your wise son  remarked, that Wilbur must  be a bit  cracked.  At that time
>I still  supposed that  you as a more mature person would  withdraw  from
>the  battle, but  unfortunately  you didn't.  Perhaps it was  "the  battered
>wife -phenomenon,"  to which you pointed.  The battered wives never stopped
>before they have been beaten up. I didn't join  to the battle until at the
>end of it, and then I attacked.  I agreed, that I was  excessive,  and
>wanted to hurt you.  So a nasty person  I am not at all supportive. My
>feeling-function must be somehow underdeveloped. I couldn't  feel anything,
>but  guilt, when my father  died.  I  became chronic depressive,  couldn't
>write anymore. Three years after  his death I  went to psychotherapy.
>        It is quite natural that fathers will die before children, but to my
>mind it is  unendurable, that  36 of your animals have been killed. I really
>can feel sympathy for  you,  but  I don't  want  to  know, how it happened,
>and   what kind of animals they were. I  cannot bear to hear. My  heart will
>break for animals, not for  people, if not they are children or madmen.

Anita,

Thank you for writing this. Maybe this is why I stayed on the List - I
couldn't really believe that so many of you could be so unkind. It's as
Gurdjieff says - we contain multitudes, and all of us, including me,
can be unkind at times.

I'm sorry you felt guilt when your father died. I think that looking after
my father this past year helped me to not feel guilt, because I knew
I had done so much for him. However, I must admit that still there
is a part of me that does feel guilty. I took him out to dinner, and for
drives, but I find myself thinking, why did I only do this his last two
years? Why didn't I do more? Why was I so angry at him so often?
But then I look at it more kindly, and I realize that HE could have taken
me out more - he did give me to be angry, etc. I can only be human...
But one thing I have learned from this whole experience with my
father is that life is very short, and it's not worth wasting it on
pettiness, nastiness, anger.

At Christmas, both my sons were staying here, and fussing with
each other - actually fighting about who would get which bedroom. And then
Dhanny came in to me, and he said, "Mum...it isn't worth it. I love Noah, and
it just doesn't make sense to get into arguments about stuff which isn't that
important. " He went on to say that the love that they have for each other,
and
Noah's good qualities, were more important than any disagreements.  I
know he had also been affected by the tremendous hostilities surrounding
his grandparents' deaths - and I know he and Noah (my other son) have
taken all of that to heart.

We can always find reasons to be mad at each other - we all have faults, we
all get cranky and difficult, but if we focus on that side of any
relationships,
then all connections are doomed to failure. We can still disagree - but we
don't have to demolish each other.

My animals? - Well, after their deaths I woke up with panic attacks. I
still just can't bear to think about what happened to them. Maybe a
soul is just a soul is just a soul - and it doesn't matter what sort of
animal it is - human or other.

Anyway, Anita, thank you for writing. I knew you couldn't be all bad -
and nor am I. :)

Love,

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:19:26 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <351c8cfe.505568029@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:58 PM 3/10/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:32:27
>-0500, you wrote:
>
>>I couldn't deal with Wilbur's anger - his threats to track me down
>>off-list and have me hurt.
>
>If he did that, I missed it.  Please provide a quotation.  It's cowardly to
>attack someone when he's not even here to defend himself from your
>accusations of criminal activities.

JoAnne,

I am not going to continue to discuss anything with you in this tone.
I don't think it's good for either of us.

Wilbur's threats to me were discussed in a series of posts - Walter
discussed them  among others. If you didn't read them then, you can
look  them up in the archives.

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:15:55 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <351b80bf.502432497@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:58 PM 3/10/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:

> >A message from the vicious bitch, please delete this right now if you're in
>pain and can't handle it.  I mean it.
>
>What have I got to lose, after all.  Susan has certainly decided I'm no
>good.

JoAnne,

You seem to feel so much anger, and behind it,  a lot of pain. I hear
you saying that you don't feel valued, and that you feel so much
criticism coming at you. This seems to come from such a deep place
in you, from way back in the past - and probably you are using us as
hooks for feelings you have kept pent up for a long time.

I'm sorry you've been so hurt...but we all have, as I said before. Maybe
your rage at me is because you didn't feel people were there for you
when your father died, and even before, in your childhood. Maybe you
can use that for insight into why it IS improtant for us all to be there for
each other. Perhaps you resent my need for some care at the moment
because you felt you didn't get it when you needed it - so now why
should "I" get it?

At some point we need to break these cycles. I am sorry you feel I
am asking you for something you can't give - but maybe we all
need it - you included. Certainly raving at each other and calling
people names doesn't heal anything. It is also disconcerting that
you feel people don't respect you, and you list all sorts of negative
attitudes toward you that I have certainly not expressed, and nor
have I heard others express them. Perhaps these are long-standing
wounds that you are dealing with.

I don't want to fight with you, nor am I on this list to engage in any
sort of argument - as you suggest. I am here, as I think others
are also, on a shared journey of exploration into ourselves. This
doesn't need to be a fighting list, and indeed if that is what it is
meant to be I don't  want to be here. Discussion and disagreement
is one thing, but fighting is another. Defining this list as a place of

agression, where I shouldn't even be if I'm not in fighting shape,
seems really inappropriate to me.

I am sorry you feel so unappreciated and neglected - maybe there
are ways we can help you feel better about what has happened to you.
Pluto on your Sun now is the beginning of the profound journey I have
just been through - maybe I am scary to you because you are afraid
that what has just happened to me is now going to happen to you.
Even if it does, you will grow, and you will heal, as I and so many
others, includng Robert, will.

>Tell me again, why is grief okay in public
>but not anger?  I don't think you have a good answer.

Those who are grieving are hurting - they have no desire to
hurt others. Anger directed at others, while reflective of your
own pain, is pain caused to others. One has no control over
grief - but one can control how one channels one's anger.

Love,

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:24:11 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
>
> A message from the vicious bitch, please delete this right now if
> you're in
> pain and can't handle it.  I mean it.
>
> What have I got to lose, after all.  Susan has certainly decided I'm
> no
> good.

JoAnne--I am sad that you have projected this assessment onto me. It is
not what I said nor what I intended. I very specifically stated that it
was the approach that I disagreed with--and still do, but this does not
mean that I think you are no good. I don't believe that this approach is
the sum total of you and thus even in my disagreement with it, it would
not imply a rejection of you. I was careful to look at the root of this
at a societal level--a level which was also intended in taking issue
with the casual dismisal of grief in the phrase "you should be over this
by now." I see this regularly used as a club against people who are
still grieving after what someone else judges to be an acceptable time
to stop (whether that time is seen as 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years depends
a lot on the person's own tolerance for working through grief)--I didn't
say that this was said or intended by you.  I do think that we are here
to help shoulder one another's pain--this is one reason why in many
cultures, friends come to wail with the family to help them feel safe in
expressing their own pain.  Long wakes or sitting shiva (sp?) are also
customs which are designed to lend our shoulders to one another.  And
these often involve as much laughter as they do tears.
        Your response is one of the very reasons that I believe most anger does
not belong in public. I did not take personal shots at you, although you
have chosen to greatly over-react and taking person shots at both me and
Julienne. I am not angry with you, but am indeed very sorry for you.
And yes, I believe grief has a place in public which anger typically
does not have. Grief calls for us to be one with another, to mourn the
passing of something precious. We are called to share such pain. I do
not think anger has the same place in public because what we typically
see is not anger, but abuse which people often try to mask as "anger" in
an attempt to justify their lashing out viciously and violently at
others. I do not believe that abuse belongs anywhere, in private or in
public; and I believe that we have an obligation if we are angry to work
it out in a more mature and thoughtful fashion. There are non-violent
ways to express anger, ways which do not lower us to the basest
dimensions of humanity.  Often people who respond blindly in anger are
reacting to their own projections onto the world--just as you have
responded to your projection of what I said and what I intended.  Own
your projections and own your anger, Joanne.  Something I said triggered
a shadow in you, parts of yourself who question your separateness from
those in grief perhaps and respond with wild attacks to try to cover up
this vulnerability. Or parts of you who have not been supported in grief
and respond by saying something like "if I had to pull myself up by my
bootstraps, than damn it so do you" or "no one was there for me so why
should I be there for you."
                                Susan


> >I disagree with this approach and feel it is a selfishness in modern
> >society which leads us to even say such things to one another.
<snip>
 People in normal
> >emotional health should be expected to reach out to one another--and
> >none of this silliness of saying "you should be over this by now."

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:45:14 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne,

     This is a strange place indeed.  I have a question for you, a
question because I truly wonder why you refer to yourself in this
manner:

> A message from the vicious bitch, please delete this right now if
> you're in pain and can't handle it.  I mean it.

And I thought that I had difficulties with self-respect ... I wonder at
the pain and the trauma that have gone into the crafting of that
message.

> What have I got to lose, after all.  Susan has certainly decided
> I'm no good.

What I hear is that JoAnne has made that decision.  I heard Susan's
words, words that showed me a soul wincing at harsh sounds, at harsh
wounds.  I have a sense of you which isn't contained or defined by those
words with which you introduce the post.  I sense a fear that prompts a
disguising of that aspect of self, a vulnerable self.  Like a cornered
mother bear, there is an attack for the purpose of defense.  I have
extreme difficulties with anger ... I bury it, I suck it up, I try to
protect others from the face of my inner anger ... why?  Probably
because when all is examined, I am angry at myself, at the reflection of
my shadow in others.


> I think it's a natural consequence of this that when you're raw it's a
> disservice to you and the people you deal with who aren't your close
> friends and relatives to force them to deal with you totally raw.
> It's a disservice to strangers to impose on them with your grief and
> demand that they care personally about your grief.  And you're not
> going to be happy with the results.
>
> It's a matter of degree.

And does not "anger" fit within this paradigm as well?  I understand
about the "retreat" notion.  That is what I am doing in terms of
healing.  I haven't retreated completely as I maintain daily contact,
but I have retreated enough so that my "descents" do not cause panic to
those who care deeply about me and what happens to me.

There is a place here for grieving and for anger ... as you say, it does
become a matter of degree.  This is a strange place, and I wouldn't ever
like to see it abandonned for its strangeness ... the f2f domaine is too
concerned with objective reality and denies the subjective nature of
being human.  Going back to the world of Jung and Moreno, this place is
the cosmos and a stage for the meeting of shadow and light, for the
antics of ego and super-ego, for the throwing of projections and the
casting of hooks.

> When someone is so pain-ridden that they can't function in society,
> they're not doing any good to go out into it.

Banishment!  I don't feel comfortable with this concept.  Being in the
larger society only increases the chance that someone will be able to
make that special connection that serves to help guide healing.  Retreat
and solitary confinement is a giving up.  This place isn't "Society" at
any rate.  This is PSYBER-L.  This place has defined itself in
archetypal terms, in relational terms, in container terms.  These
definitions go far beyond Walter's list description, they are created
through the engagement of thoughts and feelings within this space that
denies a voice to colour, age, religion, appearance, economic status,
intellectual boundaries ... PSYBER-L can contain without resorting to
banishment.  I think that others here need to dare voicing in order to
bring a sense of ease to the faces of dis-ease that too easily become
the focus of conversation.  Dialogue too easily becomes a tirade, a
monologue.  I hope you are listening to me, that others are listening to
me as I don't want this to fall into the trash heap of just another
monologue.

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:21:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      my eye untrue
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Got back after almost two days away and all the messages came pouring down
at once I read them, immersed...

Intensity, pattern, riches, stuff coming around again; don't have anything
original to say, but others were there first anyway... HooN

***

Everything of evil tends to produce a chain reaction, whether it be suicide
or revenge or paying back evil; the emotional chain reaction tends  to go
on in some form, and therefore it is wiser to interrupt it. When the right
moment comes, one has to stop being caught up in the chain reaction and
bury it, leave it alone, detach one's own integral personality from it, and
give up the power. [...] This is very difficult to do, because if one has
learnt not to let evil catch one, one can often experience that it hits or
lashes back onto people who produce it. Not to triumph or think, "Ah,
that's the way to do it, just turn it back onto the other," but to detach
and step out of it at the right moment, is of paramount importance. It is a
rule as imperative to follow today as it was in the stone age.

Marie--Louise von Franz, _Shadow and Evil in Fairy Tales_ p206

***

Although consciousness based on anima is inseparable from life, nature, the
feminine, as well as from fate and death, it does not follow that this
consciousness is naturalistic, or fatalistic, other-worldly and morose, or
particularly feminine. It means merely in these realms it turns' these are
the metaphors to which it is attached.

Attachment now becomes a more significant term in anima consciousness than
do those more guilt-making, and thus ego referant, terms like commitment,
relatedness, and responsibility. In fact the relativization of the ego
means placing in abeyance such metaphors as: choice and light,
problem-solving and reality testing, strengthening, developing,
controlling, progressing. In their place, as more adequate descriptions of
consciousness and its activities, we would use metaphors long familiar to
the alchemy of analytic practice: fantasy, image, reflection, insight, and
also, mirroring, holding, cooking, digesting, echoing, gossiping, deepening.

James Hillman, "Anima" publ. _Spring 1973_

***

Turning away from the world to discover [i.e. the work of finding your own
law or the entrance to your own "cave of inner being"] whether you are
really alive is unquestionably painful. But is in the conscious acceptance
of loneliness _when there is nothing else to do_ that a natural process of
healing occurs.

There are many versions of "The Handless Maiden" but the maiden's regaining
of the ability to touch others or to be in touch with the world is always a
natural (and, therefore, miraculous) healing. Once it happens that a
maiden's hands are regenerated when she puts her arms around a tree.
Another time she is told to reach into water for her lost child _and her
hands grow back as she does it. Often the period of handlessness lasts many
years. This is the hardest part: just waiting. Letting things come of their
own accord, or grow in their own time, often looks and feels like complete
stagnation. But angels come out of these still depths.

Nor Hall, _The Moon and the Virgin_ p147

***

Do not be so ashamed of yourself, for that is the root of it all....Above
all, don't lie to yourself. The man who lies to himself and listens to his
own lie comes to such a pass that he cannot distinguish the truth within
him, or around him, and so loses all respect for himself and others. And
having no respect he ceases to love, and in order to occupy and distract
himself without love he gives away passions and coarse pleasures, and sinks
to bestiality in his vices, all from continual lying to other men and to
himself. The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than any
one. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offence, isn't it? A
man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the
insult for himself, and lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has
caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill - he knows that
himself, yet he will be the first to take offence, and will revel in his
resentment till he feels great pleasure in it, and so pass to genuine
vindictiveness.

Fyodor Dostoevsky, _The Brothers Karamazov_ p48

***

Irrelevence is, I believe, the unmistakeable hallmark of a negative animus
statement. If looked at in isolation, animus generalizations are mostly
sound remarks in themselves, for they are the fruit of experience garnered
through the ages and they express the moral code of the place and time in
history in which we live. But they may happen to be irrelevent to the
living moment.

Irene Claremont de Castillejo, _Knowing Woman_, p80

***

Since I left you, mine eye is in my mind,
And that which governs me to go about
Doth part his function and is partly blind,
Seems seeing, but effectually is out;
For it no forms delivers to the heart
Of bird, of flow'r, or shape which it doth latch;
Of his quick objects hath the mind no part,
Nor his own vision holds what it doth catch;
For if it see the rud'st or gentlest sight,
The most sweet favor or deformed'st creature,
The mountain or the sea the day or the night,
The crow or dove, it shapes them to your feature.
Incapable of more, replete with you,
My most true mind maketh my eye untrue.

W.S. Sonnet 113

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:01:52 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <3505D08A.68@cybersurf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert & All, esp. Jim, Susan, Anita, Julienne, JoAnne, Meeseo, Hoon, who
have been active in this thread ...


I have just had the intense experience of reading the whole of the "core"
thread, wonderful it is too in its own way.  There is the strangeness and
the attacks, and the loving too, and it is full of acceptance of foibles,
misunderstandings and reconciliations.  Jim made that call on your
"journey" Robert ... I guess way back, with his "and why would I want to
connect with you?"  comment.  I followed that ... with a reminder that the
question was still hanging there ... because we were talking about
*silence* and it was your "stunned silence" that was screaming out at me
... why don't you respond to that!  You have a capacity to be stunned for
some time!

Jim and i were on the same track for a moment with our experience of your
writing Robert, with my comment about "bated breath".  This was in *no way*
designed to silence ... simply bringing in the gut reactions ... Just
because I or anyone else thinks this or that about your writing, is no
reason to slow it down ... it might be a good reason to *do it more*
stylite the hell out of it!  Remember we had a person here who left quickly
once, who said we all spoke Shakespearian, or Victorian English here?  So
be it!

Jim, I think you and i differ on our perceptions of therapy quite a bit,
though I found it heartening that you moved toward Robert a lot more
through this process.  I want get back to you on that.  One of the reasons,
Susan, why we seem to *need* anger in this place is simply because we feel
it, to have the honesty that Hoon saw in us so generously.

I read all of the discussion between Julienne and JoAnne!  <no promises
though! for the future, grin>  and with Susan coming in on that, I thought:
the theme in this "getting to the core" thread was there ... should we
express and have our inner journeys of grief out in the open or keep them
contained?  The same question just keeps recurring.  Robert, the whole
discussion must mirror that inner one you have.

I am experiencing something of this at the moment ... I am not writing
about our family stuff here to any great extent.  There is heaps happening,
as you might expect with Kale's father's death.  The thing is that it is so
much about them ... and I don't wish to write about that in a public forum.
The impact on me is there ... Julienne, you seem to be angry with me that i
don't grieve more ... please understand that every death is different.  I
have not seen this man for more than 5 min in 7 years.  The grief has been
happening all through the time that i have known Kate.

Talk about a strange place ... I have mentioned that Kate & I are getting
married, now that is easier for me to talk about!  After all that is about
me in a more direct way.  I was not really expecting a big deal from
Psyber-L in response, but nothing is strange.

> > I think it's a natural consequence of this that when you're raw it's a
> > disservice to you and the people you deal with who aren't your close
> > friends and relatives to force them to deal with you totally raw.
> > It's a disservice to strangers to impose on them with your grief and
> > demand that they care personally about your grief.  And you're not
> > going to be happy with the results.
> >
> > It's a matter of degree.
>
> And does not "anger" fit within this paradigm as well?  I understand
> about the "retreat" notion.  That is what I am doing in terms of
> healing.  I haven't retreated completely as I maintain daily contact,
> but I have retreated enough so that my "descents" do not cause panic to
> those who care deeply about me and what happens to me.

I think this is a great point in the discussion ... there is a line that is
just right, and there is an art of finding it ...  however in a list like
this we don't need to tread it! We won't.  We get extremes!  It is as if
between us we form a middle path ... in the amalgam of the multitude here
there is sanity, as with the amalgam of the multitude within ... no one
aspect alone can give us sanity.


> There is a place here for grieving and for anger ... as you say, it does
> become a matter of degree.  This is a strange place, and I wouldn't ever
> like to see it abandonned for its strangeness ... the f2f domaine is too
> concerned with objective reality and denies the subjective nature of
> being human.  Going back to the world of Jung and Moreno, this place is
> the cosmos and a stage for the meeting of shadow and light, for the
> antics of ego and super-ego, for the throwing of projections and the
> casting of hooks.

I am glad you bring the discussion back to *here*  ... what are we on about
*here*!  This is not the grocery store, nor a grief group, not a support
group per se.  But we can have this here, just as Jim can have a
therapeutic experience on a camping trip.  I love the way you put it.  It
is a place for all of that ... not because of *us* or because we made it
that way ... that is the nature of psyberspace, its strength ... it's a
rugged complex space

> > When someone is so pain-ridden that they can't function in society,
> > they're not doing any good to go out into it.
>
> Banishment!  I don't feel comfortable with this concept.  Being in the
> larger society only increases the chance that someone will be able to
> make that special connection that serves to help guide healing.  Retreat
> and solitary confinement is a giving up.  This place isn't "Society" at
> any rate.  This is PSYBER-L.  This place has defined itself in
> archetypal terms, in relational terms, in container terms.  These
> definitions go far beyond Walter's list description, they are created
> through the engagement of thoughts and feelings within this space that
> denies a voice to colour, age, religion, appearance, economic status,
> intellectual boundaries ... PSYBER-L can contain without resorting to
> banishment.

Robert, you allow and create a contained and generous lively place for the
psyche in Psyber-L ... it must be a mirror of your own allowing inside ...
this makes me think you must be doing well with your journey!  Does me good
to read it!  I agree too that it is and must be way beyond the list
description, just as the drama on a stage is way beyond the physical design
of the stage, or even the programme.

> I think that others here need to dare voicing in order to
> bring a sense of ease to the faces of dis-ease that too easily become
> the focus of conversation.  Dialogue too easily becomes a tirade, a
> monologue.  I hope you are listening to me, that others are listening to
> me as I don't want this to fall into the trash heap of just another
> monologue.

Robert, what did you make of Anita's thought that you might be having an
Authenticity crisis?  I thought it would make a wonderful category in the
DSM IV, though I understand you might feel hurt if someone wrote up the
list of symptoms.  Authenticity is such a thing when reality is flexible,
and virtual ... and you are drawn to a Cyber identity.  I thought you
deserve every penny to work on this journey, and i am glad you have not
found a DSM name for it.  I have extinguished the word depression from my
vocab.  I reflect back any of the following:  despair, suffering from
trauma, existential crisis, lost, tired, stuck, reliving childhood
expedience, without hope, need to withdraw, need to take stock etc.  I
don't believe that there is an illness called depression ...  I have
occasionally on a client's request, put it on forms so that they can claim
money ... this sort of thing really skews the research ... as i am sure it
happens all the time.  I am getting into the area i want to respond to you
on Jim.

May we journey well.



Walter








___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:38:32 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <351c8cfe.505568029@mail.clark.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne


> >I couldn't deal with Wilbur's anger - his threats to track me down
> >off-list and have me hurt.
>
> If he did that, I missed it.  Please provide a quotation.  It's cowardly to
> attack someone when he's not even here to defend himself from your
> accusations of criminal activities.

I can understand that Julienne does not want to take you up on this, and
refers you to the archive.  I also understand that it is a serious
accusation, and needs to be backed up.  I recall the event very well, and
it still feels to me as the most chilling moment i have had in cyberspace.


http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9710&L=psyber-l&P=R25854

I am thinking specifically of the paragraph you will find if you search for
the phrase:  "live in the same state", which is how i found the post.

I think Julienne's words describe accurately enough what he says there,
allowing for the fact that they refer to her.

We cannot guarantee that the list will be free or safe from all sorts of
threats and attacks, however i think it is a good idea for us to notice and
name what we see and be there with validation if we experience something as
hurtful.  I would not expect anyone to be over this nor is the list over
this in my opinion.  Clearly *I* am not over it.  I hated even searching
for the message.


Walter


___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:28:58 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <350b8e94.17618499@mail.xtra.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:38 PM 3/11/98 +0000, Walter wrote:
>JoAnne

Julienne wrote:
> >I couldn't deal with Wilbur's anger - his threats to track me down
>> >off-list and have me hurt.

JoAnne said:>> If he did that, I missed it.  Please provide a quotation.
It's cowardly to
>> attack someone when he's not even here to defend himself from your
>> accusations of criminal activities.

I just want to add that I can't understand how JoAnne has chosen to forget
this - as she gave Wilbur the e-mail address of at least one List  I was on
so that he could try to contact others about me - and her doing that was
discussed on this list in this context.

>I can understand that Julienne does not want to take you up on this, and
>refers you to the archive.  I also understand that it is a serious
>accusation, and needs to be backed up.  I recall the event very well, and
>it still feels to me as the most chilling moment i have had in cyberspace.

>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9710L=psyber-l&P=R25854
>
>I am thinking specifically of the paragraph you will find if you search for
>the phrase:  "live in the same state", which is how i found the post.

>I think Julienne's words describe accurately enough what he says there,
>allowing for the fact that they refer to her.

>We cannot guarantee that the list will be free or safe from all sorts of
>threats and attacks, however i think it is a good idea for us to notice and
>name what we see and be there with validation if we experience something as
>hurtful.  I would not expect anyone to be over this nor is the list over
>this in my opinion.  Clearly *I* am not over it.  I hated even searching
>for the message.

Thank you for understanding this, Wilbur. As my brothers had already sent
so many agencies to the house, all of which ending up supporting my father
and me in the end I might just mention, the thought of Wilbur doing
something which might have put my father in jeopardy was terrifying for me.

Let's hope all of this sort of thing is now over.

Thank you,

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:50:54 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <3505AF7B.3569CEB8@sunbird.usd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>, on Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:24:11
-0600, you wrote:

>JoAnne Schmitz wrote:
>>
>> A message from the vicious bitch, please delete this right now if
>> you're in
>> pain and can't handle it.  I mean it.
>>
>> What have I got to lose, after all.  Susan has certainly decided I'm
>> no
>> good.
>
>JoAnne--I am sad that you have projected this assessment onto me.

What then was your point in responding to what I said by saying, "People in
normal emotional health should be expected to reach out to one another--and
none of this silliness of saying "you should be over this by now."  You
weren't saying this was my silliness?

Your answer suggests that you're projecting something onto me.

>There are non-violent
>ways to express anger, ways which do not lower us to the basest
>dimensions of humanity.  Often people who respond blindly in anger are
>reacting to their own projections onto the world--just as you have
>responded to your projection of what I said and what I intended.

How much diagnosis do you do with people you've never met?  I suppose this
is responsible behavior?

If you didn't intend to say that I was telling Julienne and all people in
grief to shut up and get over it, then you didn't express yourself very
clearly.  I have no problem with most of what you said, but I had a big
problem with your attributing to me attitutes and opinions I do not have.

>Own
>your projections and own your anger, Joanne.  Something I said triggered
>a shadow in you, parts of yourself who question your separateness from
>those in grief perhaps and respond with wild attacks to try to cover up
>this vulnerability. Or parts of you who have not been supported in grief
>and respond by saying something like "if I had to pull myself up by my
>bootstraps, than damn it so do you" or "no one was there for me so why
>should I be there for you."

Something you said triggered something, yes.  The part of me that doesn't
like to be accused of things I haven't done.  And there's some accusation
flinging going on around here; Julienne is unwilling to support hers,
giving her "sigh, you go look it up, I'm not interested in arguing about
it" response when she's called on an accusation.

I react negatively to having your projections hung on me, Susan.  I could
play the "perhaps your negative experiences with people I remind you of
forced you to react to me in this way," but where will that take us?

I doubt you want to be on the receiving end of that game.  Why would you?
I don't like it either, when the game is being played this way.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:50:54 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <3505D08A.68@cybersurf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks, Robert, for listening.

Hello Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>, on Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:45:14
-0700, you wrote:

>JoAnne,
>
>     This is a strange place indeed.  I have a question for you, a
>question because I truly wonder why you refer to yourself in this
>manner:
>
>> A message from the vicious bitch, please delete this right now if
>> you're in pain and can't handle it.  I mean it.
>
>And I thought that I had difficulties with self-respect ... I wonder at
>the pain and the trauma that have gone into the crafting of that
>message.

I'm tired of being painted a certain way, and instead of washing the paint
off, why not just put more on.  If I'm told I'm a certain way, instead of
fighting it, why not join it.  See if it fits.  There's no point in
pretending I'm never the way I'm accused of being, it's just too mealy
mouthed to say, oh, I'm not being hostile.

I'm being hostile.  I'm angry.  I'm defensive, yes.  Defense is a
reasonable response to attack (a word I try to avoid).  I'm not a typical
female huggy kissy squeezy friendly and if things go wrong all weepy kind
of person, and that makes some people really uncomfortable.  I can't
pretend I'm that powder puff thing.

>> What have I got to lose, after all.  Susan has certainly decided
>> I'm no good.
>
>What I hear is that JoAnne has made that decision.  I heard Susan's
>words, words that showed me a soul wincing at harsh sounds, at harsh
>wounds.  I have a sense of you which isn't contained or defined by those
>words with which you introduce the post.  I sense a fear that prompts a
>disguising of that aspect of self, a vulnerable self.  Like a cornered
>mother bear, there is an attack for the purpose of defense.

You may be right.  What would I be defending?  My belief that I'm a caring
person, despite my un powder puffy self.

When my father was sick and dying, he didn't want hugs and kisses and all
that kind of stuff from me.  He did want my company, he did want me to
bring him the newspaper, he did want me there, just there.  I valued that
time very much.  I went every day after work and spent hours with him,
whether he was even conscious or not, or delirious.

Why have I never discussed this?  Because I feel that anything that brings
this up will get a "I spent more time, I made more sacrifices, I was am and
always will be in more pain" response from Julienne.

>I have
>extreme difficulties with anger ... I bury it, I suck it up, I try to
>protect others from the face of my inner anger ... why?  Probably
>because when all is examined, I am angry at myself, at the reflection of
>my shadow in others.

I don't like it either.  But I can't deny my shadow, that would be
deserting a part of me that has value too, and if I deny it it will come up
and take over.  As someone said on another list that Julienne and I are on,
when someone brought up Hercules' labor killing the nine-headed Hydra, he
killed eight of the heads but buried the ninth under a rock.  You can't
kill all of it.  You can put it under a rock but it's still there.

I don't feel that Julienne thinks she has a Hydra head anywhere, hidden or
out in the open.

>> I think it's a natural consequence of this that when you're raw it's a
>> disservice to you and the people you deal with who aren't your close
>> friends and relatives to force them to deal with you totally raw.
>> It's a disservice to strangers to impose on them with your grief and
>> demand that they care personally about your grief.  And you're not
>> going to be happy with the results.
>>
>> It's a matter of degree.
>
>And does not "anger" fit within this paradigm as well?  I understand
>about the "retreat" notion.  That is what I am doing in terms of
>healing.  I haven't retreated completely as I maintain daily contact,
>but I have retreated enough so that my "descents" do not cause panic to
>those who care deeply about me and what happens to me.

When the people you love know you're going through difficulty, they know.
They aren't protected by your hiding your descents.  They find out later in
little ways and are panicked even more because they fear you will descend
so rapidly, and with a habit of silence, that you will fall all the way
before they can reach out for you.

But these are the people who love you and care about you.  I have a feeling
that there's a line.  On one side are people who are in pain and who speak
this pain to people who love them.  On the other side are people who are in
pain and demand that everyone treat them specially because of it, and
cannot see anyone else's pain as having value.  Different situations are
different degrees on one or another side of the line.  I have felt for some
time that Julienne is on the pity me side of the line.  It's so hard to
explain why.

And in the end, that explaining is so useless for me to communicate
anything to Julienne.  I'm running several email lists right now, and one
of them has just gotten over an unpleasant argument between two people who
have negative views of each other.  And most of what they were saying to
each other was, you are bad, I am good, why don't you like me?  Well,
that's silly, isn't it!  Insult someone, claim you are superior, and then
wonder why they don't like you???

You can't argue someone into loving, respecting or liking you.  I know
Julienne won't love, respect or like me because of anything I have to say.
And I can't behave in the way she wants me to.  I don't think behaving that
way is right for me.

>There is a place here for grieving and for anger ... as you say, it does
>become a matter of degree.  This is a strange place, and I wouldn't ever
>like to see it abandonned for its strangeness ... the f2f domaine is too
>concerned with objective reality and denies the subjective nature of
>being human.  Going back to the world of Jung and Moreno, this place is
>the cosmos and a stage for the meeting of shadow and light, for the
>antics of ego and super-ego, for the throwing of projections and the
>casting of hooks.
>
>> When someone is so pain-ridden that they can't function in society,
>> they're not doing any good to go out into it.
>
>Banishment!  I don't feel comfortable with this concept.

It's a self-imposed banishment.  And it's not the total banishment of
"never go out, never do anything."  My experience in grief has been that I
had to choose when to go out, plan ways of getting out of situations that
might prove difficult or avoid them entirely, and plan to be with people
that I knew could support me.  Of course, there were times when I didn't
have a person to be with all the time.  That was painful, but it was also
important, to learn to be alone with the grief and pain sometimes.  Not all
the time, sometimes.

There were times when I couldn't function.  I'm not talking about weeks at
a time, but hours or sometimes days.  I would not try to function then.
That would be as pointless as trying to mow the lawn when you've got a
broken leg.

>Being in the
>larger society only increases the chance that someone will be able to
>make that special connection that serves to help guide healing.  Retreat
>and solitary confinement is a giving up.  This place isn't "Society" at
>any rate.  This is PSYBER-L.  This place has defined itself in
>archetypal terms, in relational terms, in container terms.

Yes.  We've had some trouble finding a real shape for this place, though,
haven't we?  And the questions don't seem to have answers.

>These
>definitions go far beyond Walter's list description, they are created
>through the engagement of thoughts and feelings within this space that
>denies a voice to colour, age, religion, appearance, economic status,
>intellectual boundaries ... PSYBER-L can contain without resorting to
>banishment.

I think that's right.  I don't say that Julienne cannot deal with her grief
and sadness on PSYBER-L.  I am reacting to the intrusion of grief into
every sphere of every life all the time, as the trump card for winning an
argument, shutting someone up, getting your own way.  It makes anyone
else's grief or sadness irrelevant.

>I think that others here need to dare voicing in order to
>bring a sense of ease to the faces of dis-ease that too easily become
>the focus of conversation.  Dialogue too easily becomes a tirade, a
>monologue.  I hope you are listening to me, that others are listening to
>me as I don't want this to fall into the trash heap of just another
>monologue.

I am listening to you, Robert, and I very much appreciate your reply to me,
that you didn't let it fall into that trash heap either.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:50:55 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <350b8e94.17618499@mail.xtra.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>, on Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:38:32
GMT, you wrote:

>JoAnne
>
>
>> >I couldn't deal with Wilbur's anger - his threats to track me down
>> >off-list and have me hurt.
>>
>> If he did that, I missed it.  Please provide a quotation.  It's cowardly to
>> attack someone when he's not even here to defend himself from your
>> accusations of criminal activities.
>
>I can understand that Julienne does not want to take you up on this, and
>refers you to the archive.  I also understand that it is a serious
>accusation, and needs to be backed up.  I recall the event very well, and
>it still feels to me as the most chilling moment i have had in cyberspace.
>
>
>http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9710&L=psyber-l&P=R25854
>
>I am thinking specifically of the paragraph you will find if you search for
>the phrase:  "live in the same state", which is how i found the post.

The entire sentence is:

"I should mention that I have a lot of other alternative ways to handle
Julienne, being what I know of the Internet and the fact that we actually
do live in the same state."

I took this to mean that if she were saying something untrue and libellous
about him, that he could sue her.  I can understand that there can be
different opinions on this, but for Julienne to state baldly that he
threatened to track her down off-list and have her hurt is just not
accurate.  She could say she felt threatened, believed he was hinting at
physical attack.  To say that he said it is another thing entirely.

>I think Julienne's words describe accurately enough what he says there,
>allowing for the fact that they refer to her.

I guess I had a different interpretation.  But I'm not afraid of men and I
don't interpret all their actions and words as attacks.

>We cannot guarantee that the list will be free or safe from all sorts of
>threats and attacks, however i think it is a good idea for us to notice and
>name what we see and be there with validation if we experience something as
>hurtful.  I would not expect anyone to be over this nor is the list over
>this in my opinion.  Clearly *I* am not over it.  I hated even searching
>for the message.

Obviously we're not over it, we were never over it.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:58:41 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <3509cbaa.59372580@mail.clark.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne,

> "I should mention that I have a lot of other alternative ways to handle
> Julienne, being what I know of the Internet and the fact that we actually
> do live in the same state."
>
> I took this to mean that if she were saying something untrue and libellous
> about him, that he could sue her.  I can understand that there can be
> different opinions on this, but for Julienne to state baldly that he
> threatened to track her down off-list and have her hurt is just not
> accurate.  She could say she felt threatened, believed he was hinting at
> physical attack.  To say that he said it is another thing entirely.

He does not say what it is, although at my request he clarified
it later as legal action and "mail bombing".  In the first
instance it was a veiled threat and it took the discussion out of
the contained space here, into the physical world.  Veiled
threats (and not that thinly veiled) are nasty because their very
nature to provoke fear.

> >I think Julienne's words describe accurately enough what he says there,
> >allowing for the fact that they refer to her.
>
> I guess I had a different interpretation.  But I'm not afraid of men and I
> don't interpret all their actions and words as attacks.

It is not an interpretation. He does not say what of the *many*
things are.  It is reasonable to be afraid of some men.  It also
pays to note when there is not an *explicit* threat.  I
understand how his words prompt fear of attack, his words *are*
intimidating, this is not just a projection onto them.

I am writing here not only with the *specifics* of this incident
in mind ... but i am aware that the whole question of *what is
real* and what is *our perception* is involved here.  I am all
for the allowing & the even fostering of the consciousness of
"hooks and eyes" to *be* here and express and create the
co-unconsious psyche and mystery ... and this is possible if we
can *also* see the limits to that.  In other words sometimes a
cigar is also a cigar.

I think that we have a part in the creation of the psychological
space we create.  I am conscious of that, and it is one of the
main stated purposes of the list to be conscious of that.  As
Charles & Robert have said recently in different words we build
such a space over time through tradition through our
participation not just through the stated purposes.

We can have a stage if we define the wings.

> >We cannot guarantee that the list will be free or safe from all sorts of
> >threats and attacks, however i think it is a good idea for us to notice and
> >name what we see and be there with validation if we experience something as
> >hurtful.  I would not expect anyone to be over this nor is the list over
> >this in my opinion.  Clearly *I* am not over it.  I hated even searching
> >for the message.
>
> Obviously we're not over it, we were never over it.


True.  Thus the expression of grief and how it is best done,
pertains primarily to *here* and Julienne and others who are
grieving in their lives bring that to a group that has its own
losses, and sad tales.  We are not a grief group, but a group in
grief.

We have our departed and we quarrel over the legacy.  That is the
nature of the process.

JoAnne ... my grief is that Psyber-L  ... more accurately
Psybernet is not what I dreamt it to be!  My acceptance of that
is close, and can feel a joy, and an enthusiasm for what it *is*.
Do you have something like that going on here?



Walter


___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:18:15 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      what doesn't go away
In-Reply-To:  <3509cbaa.59372580@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>I guess I had a different interpretation.

Difference of interpretation.

Now, there's a subject to turn over and over.

***

btw, JoAnne, when you write this: "But I'm not afraid of men and I don't
interpret all their actions and words as attacks." I wonder if I know
anyone who does in fact *interpret all their actions and words as attacks."
and I'm struck by a feeling that by virtue of 'interpretation' there is
some kind of equivocation which is part and parcel of the "interpretive
mode of comprehension".

In other words, interpretation is soulwork and is thus not definitive, is
fuzzy and variable too, so that the response "every time" to "every action
and word" cannot be a *singular* interpretation. (...just my take on it!)

Another way of saying this would be to allow for a wide range of
interpretations, in which case, for example, some times actions and words
would be construed as 'attacking' (either correctly or incorrectly,) and
other times they would not be interpreted so.

***

Meanwhile specifically regarding Wilbur's implied threats: <in my opinion>,
they were purposely veiled and developed over a series of posts, and
Wilbur, apparently intentionally, (and here I literally read and interpret
between the lines,) made his threats non-explicit in an attempt to maximize
their terrible effect. He wanted Julienne to speculate about what their
implications were, whether they ranged from the absurd libel lawsuit to
some use of 'the internet' to punish her, to actual physical harm.

It remains a chilling episode, as if one had been forced to witness a rape
attempt.

***

But Julienne is here and Wilbur is not. Justice served, to my mind.

It isn't over. Terrible wounds don't ever go away. They are in the class of
events which don't go away, like grievous losses, wounds are

losses.

***

HooN

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:14:12 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Cory ... Being a hook for other folks' projections
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cory ...

I want to take some time to respond to your post about hooks and
projections.  As I mentionned in my post to JoAnne, this place, this
cyberspace is a rich place for these things.  You said that:

> This is an issue that keeps coming up in my life, projecting inner
> thoughts onto others.  I could relate especially well with that
> image of the silent other as a *hook* upon which I could hang my
> fears or fantasies

One of the things that need to be remembered in dealing with hooks upon
which projections are cast, is that the hooks are indeed part of the
psyche of the other.  When we cast projections (as my limited
understanding of this reads) we cast them upon reflections of self both
positive and negative.  However, these projections can't just be thrown
at anyone.  The person upon whom the projection is cast does indeed do
more than mirror the self, they have aspects of these projected
qualities within their psyche.  And, this casting of projections and
being a hook for the casting by others is natural and normal.

> I can't see any one of the people writing on this list, yet somehow
> through reading the texts you've sent in, I'm developing an image of
> each one of you in my mind.  And is that a good or bad thing?

Probably neither.  It's normal, it's a human thing.  Perhaps the images
you construct are just as valid (perhaps more so) than those which are
based on "physical appearance".  How many of us wished that others could
see/hear the "real" person that we feel that we are?  How many of us are
faced with trying to redefine the perception of ourselves wrongly cast
by f2f re-constructions?  This is part of cyberspace's liberating and
democraticizing attributes.

> Maybe Its immature of me, but frankly  I like something about
> *projecting* images on disembodied voices.  I like to listen to radio
> dramas, and just imagine the scenes in my mind.  When I listen to
> radio, I imagine the faces of the people I hear talking---and when
> I see their real faces in a photograph or on television, I'm always
> startled.  I think, that can't be the radio personality I knew!!

A real quandry.  What is the true face of a person?  Anyone I know who
is older is quick to state that the face they see in the mirror doesn't
reflect the sense of "Self" that is felt.  In fact, sometimes that face
is more of a mask, an inflicted mask which sets one outside.  In
cyberspace, our words have a better chance of revealing the real person
beneath the skin.  It's hard to engage in dialogue over a period of time
without becoming truly visible.  It's hard to maintain a persona that
disguises the real "self".

> I like writing and reading in this e-mail list without having seen
> any of the other members in a photograph.  But, just what is going
> on here?  Must keep exploring . . .

Well, I can't answer that question either so I'll have to join in the
exploration.  Pleased to make your acquaintance, Cory.

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:29:48 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:


>
> Susan, why we seem to *need* anger in this place is simply because we
> feel
> it, to have the honesty that Hoon saw in us so generously.


A need for honesty does not carry with it the acceptability of
expressing one's anger through abuse. And just because we feel something
does not always mean that it ought to be expressed. I have said before
in this list that civility is in my mind the hallmark of human
interaction-- and as you have said this is not a therapy group --and as
such I would argue that there are times when honesty must be filtered
through civility in its expression. Otherwise you invite the destruction
of one another in the name of honesty.  Deep pain within and self-hatred
mascquerading as "righteous" anger are still pain and hatred and one is
moved even further from honesty for having changed the label; one in
fact denies what is behind the anger and substitutes abuse of other for
honesty with self.
         This is an area where I seem to constantly disagree with you, Walter,
and I think the norms which encourage such viciousness are not
ultimately for the good and believe setting it up as so is playing with
fire.  You invite a level of deep expression which should perhaps only
occur within therapy, deny your role in guiding the process in a way
which is safe for all, and then refuse to provide your own deep
expression by citing this as a public list (something which seems be a
non-consenses based decision anyway).  This strikes me as problematic in
two ways: (1) you instigate by inviting so-called honesty, but if it
gets hot you indicate no obligation to stay involved (to wit, your post
that says you've read all of the "discussion between Julienne and
JoAnne!" but make  <no promises though! for the future, grin> ) and (2)
you invite the need to express anger because it is here, because it is
honest, but then choose to limit your own level of participation
because "and I don't wish to write about that in a public forum." There
is so much then that becomes contradictory about this list--the
contraries which seem to operate have more potential I think to harm
than to enlighten or to heal without the tempering of civility to help
provide the container within which the alchemy might work.
                                Susan

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:09:59 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <350772CC.B34D2712@sunbird.usd.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Susan writes,

>I have said before
>in this list that civility is in my mind the hallmark of >human >interaction
[snip]
>there are times when honesty must be filtered through civility in its
>expression. >Otherwise you invite the destruction of one another in the
>name of honesty.

Of course, this is one of the greatest of human paradoxes. (Also, this
formulation is possible too: "you invite the destruction of one another in
the name of civility." )

So, how might express our anger without it passing the line of abuse?
(Especially,) when it is often encountered that *any* expression of
displeasure directed towards one, let alone anger, hurts. Thus, having felt
hurt, has one also been abused?

However, is this what you are getting at, Susan: that 'the civil expression
of anger may hurt, but, by definition, (better: how it is intended and
expressed,)  is not abusive.'?

How does one filter honesty through civility? How does one filter honest
anger through civility?

("... detach one's own integral personality from it, and give up the
power." was my quote of M.L. von Franz from yesterday. A clue?)

***

But honesty is never merely 'anything goes' either. Abuse in the name of
honesty seems to be a contradiction in terms. To delve deeper into why this
is so is to investigate what is honesty...

***

best to you, to all,

HooN




 _o     \o_         __|    \ /     |__         o _   o/  \o/
__|-  __/    \__/o    \o    |    o/     o/__   /\   /|    |
   \    \    /  \     / \  /o\  / \     |   \  / |  / \  / \
http:junior.apk.net/~hoon                        hoon@apk.net

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:15:32 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

JoAnne
>> >JoAnne--I am sad that you have projected this assessment onto me.
>
> What then was your point in responding to what I said by saying,
> "People in
> normal emotional health should be expected to reach out to one
> another--and
> none of this silliness of saying "you should be over this by now."
> You
> weren't saying this was my silliness?

I wasn't projecting onto you at all. The phrase about the behavior of
people in "normal emotional health" was designed to parallel what you
had said and the "silliness" was my assessment of what I see from many
people who object to others grieving publically. While not attributing
this to you, I was indeed grouping this complex of behaviors together as
in my experience I have seen them to occur together.  Whether they occur
together in you is a separate issue and one which I have not addressed.
>
>
> >There are non-violent
> >ways to express anger, ways which do not lower us to the basest
> >dimensions of humanity.  Often people who respond blindly in anger
> are
> >reacting to their own projections onto the world--just as you have
> >responded to your projection of what I said and what I intended.
>
> How much diagnosis do you do with people you've never met?  I suppose
> this
> is responsible behavior?
>

I'm not diagnosing you. I am trying to generate a variety of possible
explanations for your behavior which could take you out of the category
of "vicious bitch" and into a category which might be more charitable.
This is an important strategy of good interpersonal communication,
generating multiple hypotheses for motives, so that one does not fall
into a trap of projection and thus can interact with others with more
understanding and responsibility.

> If you didn't intend to say that I was telling Julienne and all people
> in
> grief to shut up and get over it, then you didn't express yourself
> very
> clearly.

Certainly it was not clear to you. I have looked back over the posting
and do believe that what I said was said plainly and clearly.  Howver, I
cannot control the perceptions which might be projected onto it which
might distort what was said and/or intended.

 I have no problem with most of what you said, but I had a
> big
> problem with your attributing to me attitutes and opinions I do not
> have.
>
Understood. And this is what I have not done. I gave a general response
addressing the APPROACH you advocated without addressing you
specifically and then I suggested multiple options to help explain why
you might have reacted the way that you did.  I am quite certain that I
have not attibuted attributes and opinions to you.

>
>
> Something you said triggered something, yes.  The part of me that
> doesn't
> like to be accused of things I haven't done.

Understood also. Nor do I. And I have not accused you of anything. If
you stand accused, it is from a boomerang effect of your own
projections.


>
> I react negatively to having your projections hung on me, Susan.  I
> could
> play the "perhaps your negative experiences with people I remind you
> of
> forced you to react to me in this way," but where will that take us?
>
> I doubt you want to be on the receiving end of that game.  Why would
> you?
> I don't like it either, when the game is being played this way.

It might take us to a better understanding of one another since it was
fairly clear to me that I was doing my dangdest to give you the benefit
of the doubt despite a pretty nasty attack on me [and frankly no, I've
never considered my name beautiful, even when others managed to spell it
correctly,and have endured intense teasing about it throughout my
life--and almost no one sings the tune to Suwanne River properly anyway
and most people don't have the story of the ugly Duckling right either].
Lay off a little bit JoAnne.  Yes defensiveness is natural if one is
attacked--but you do generate attacks on you pretty much by yourself and
then invite the cycle of defensiveness to begin by attacking others who
are left dumbfounded as to where that came from and are invited to be
defensive to your attack.  This pattern is fairly clear from a
linguistic analysis of what is said in this posts and the defensive
phrasings (indicating hidden agendas, superiority, certainty, and the
like) appear in yours-- were there attacks preceding it, the same
language would be evident in the earlier posts as well. Try forgetting
the name calling and discuss the issues. Julienne is not the wicked
witch of the west, I am not the anti-Christ, and no one else here is out
to get you either.
                        Susan
>
> -JoAnne
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:13:15 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <350772CC.B34D2712@sunbird.usd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Susan,

You summarise what I think here well, yet I experience a strong critical
tone.

> > Susan, why we seem to *need* anger in this place is simply because we
> > feel
> > it, to have the honesty that Hoon saw in us so generously.
>
>
> A need for honesty does not carry with it the acceptability of
> expressing one's anger through abuse.

Not abuse!  I agree.  I was thinking how Jim's anger (which was a component
in the origin of the "getting to the core" thread), got a lot moving and
led to greater authenticity, and a better relationship with Robert.  I
thought it was a good example of the purpose of anger.  Not abuse, but
anger.  I sense a bit of anger in you here, annoyed might be a better word,
and i feel that.  Perhaps we can go from here to a closer place, I want
that to happen.

> and as you have said this is not a therapy group --and as
> such I would argue that there are times when honesty must be filtered
> through civility in its expression. Otherwise you invite the destruction
> of one another in the name of honesty.  Deep pain within and self-hatred
> mascquerading as "righteous" anger are still pain and hatred and one is
> moved even further from honesty for having changed the label; one in
> fact denies what is behind the anger and substitutes abuse of other for
> honesty with self.

Do you equate anger with abuse?  I don't at all.

> This is an area where I seem to constantly disagree with you, Walter,
> and I think the norms which encourage such viciousness are not
> ultimately for the good and believe setting it up as so is playing with
> fire.

I hope there are no norms here that encourage viciousness, but rather the
opposite ... there is viciousness at times, but that is another matter.

> You invite a level of deep expression which should perhaps only
> occur within therapy, ...

I think we go in a depth direction and I think that is ok, I like that.  It
is not a therapy group any more than Jim's camping trip in the snow was a
therapy group, but we can have depth here as we explore the psyche in
psyberspace, we will almost by the definition of the group, even its name.
Just how much and how that goes is part of the nature of the exploration.

> deny your role in guiding the process in a way
> which is safe for all, ...

I have in the past called myself the "facilitator" and have grappled with
that *openly* here.  I have made a shift, all out in the open on my
process.  While i was in the role I took it on fully!  I might not have
done it the way you wanted, nor as well as I might have done in a perfect
world, but I took it to the point where i thought that it was not helpful
to have me in that role here.  This is not in my opinion a "denial of the
role".  I am now fully in the role of list owner and exploring that ... and
inviting comment and collaborative learning ...

> and then refuse to provide your own deep
> expression by citing this as a public list (something which seems be a
> non-consenses based decision anyway).

I feel badly judged by you here.  My own perception is that I bring Walter
here in depth.  I also *declare* the limits of my sharing.  Currently it is
specifically related to not wanting to share about others in my family in a
public space.  I tread a fine line here, and share as much as i feel ok
with.  Far from encouraging people to share "all", I have shared some
concern, even recently with Robert ... not that i want to silence him, but
i feel concern when he moves from a share all position to a somewhat
apologetic,  " OK I'll be more silent".  I am glad he has found the central
ground on this, or so it seems to me.

This list is 100% consensus on being public.  It has always been public and
that has always been stated in the documents.  By logging on to it that is
the agreement.  Once here, people want it to be what it is not ... that
reveals the unconscious processes at work.  Psyber-L is not our dream of
Psyber-L, that says a lot about our yearning, our desires ... it is good
that we reveal that ... but it would in my opinion be foolhardy to change
the structure as people kick against it.  Bad alchemy if you know what i
mean.

The one change that did happen was that the list changed the nature of its
facilitation.  I entertained the idea of closing it and reopening it at
that time, however, it was fully discussed, or at least declared here and
that seemed unnecessarily extreme.

> This strikes me as problematic in
> two ways: (1) you instigate by inviting so-called honesty, but if it
> gets hot you indicate no obligation to stay involved (to wit, your post
> that says you've read all of the "discussion between Julienne and
> JoAnne!" but make  <no promises though! for the future, grin> )

That is right ... rather i suggest we all involve ourselves to the best of
our ability.  I will if i can, but do not promise a thing.  I grin about
that, since it was such a hot topic a while back ...


Have you read the new notes in the welcome file:


|  = On Being a Psyber-L Subscriber =
|  How can you get what you want from this list?  How can you contribute
|  usefully to it?  The experiential exploration of the psyche in
|  cyberspace is Psyber-L's focus, this is a complex idea.  It is worth
|  some study and asking questions in the list's discussions if this is
|  confusing.  Of course everyone has a different idea of what it means!
|  What does it mean to you?  Is this of interest to you?  Please introduce
|  yourself to the list, and how the purpose of the list relates to your
|  own reasons for being here.  This question may require some
|  reflection and discussion on Psyber-L.  You will see that the topics are
|  *broad* but that the purpose is to experientially learn about the psyche
|  in cyberspace.  It will make for a good experience if we connect with
|  each other around the list's focus.
|
|  It is envisaged that if we connect well with each other and work towards
|  our individual and common interests that there will be a good atmosphere
|  in the discussions.  The psyche is a complex and unruly phenomena, and
|  hence we can expect difficulties in our communications.  Working these
|  though is part of the work of Psyber-L.  How to influence the discussion
|  so you enjoy the list and get more out of it is part of the challenge.
|  How to contribute to the list so that it develops for our mutual benefit
|  is also part of the challenge.
|
|  Psyber-L and Psybernet have been inspired by several key ideas and key
|  people, it is worth looking them up on the Psybernet web site at:
|  http://www.psybernet.co.nz/p_key.htm   Some study of the public archives
|  may be useful to learn about the history here and also what might seem
|  to be our specialised jargon.  It is ok to ask, or to post naively, it
|  is up to you.
|
|
|  You are requested work towards understanding this PSYBER-L.WELCOME file
|  and the PSYBER-L.DESCRIPT.  See how to get the latest versions below.
|  It is requested that you are (or become) familiar with codes of
|  netiquette, and familiar with relevant laws of you land.  It is
|  particularly worth noting that spamming on the list is not welcome and
|  that it is not ethical to post private mail in a public place.  Ad
|  hominem attack, that is, attack of the person rather than their ideas is
|  not welcome.

I recall wanting your input at the time on this and i still do!  I hope
this has incorporated the diverse opinions on these matters in a way that
is useful.

My role in the same welcome file is described like this:


|  = Role of the List owner =
|  I am the List owner.  This means that I have responsibility for the
|  software settings and the content of the Welcome file and the
|  Description of the list.  These jobs have a profound influence on the
|  running of the list, and the psychological quality of the list.  It is
|  within the scope and purpose of the list that this role, and my
|  performance in it is discussed.  Learning the art and skill of being a
|  list owner, especially of a list which goes beyond information giving,
|  and into exploring the psyche, is something that can be learnt through
|  being here.
|
|  I am also a participant on the list, and at times deeply involved in the
|  discussion.  I may be absent at times, and there is no guarantee I will
|  read every post immediately.  I rarely enter into discussion outside the
|  list about matters that could be discussed in the list.  However, please
|  note:
|
|  Should there be matters that you consider require the attention of the
|  List owner, matters that simply writing to the list will not achieve,
|  please send a cc to me or email me directly.  I give personal email a
|  priority and there are times it is important I am involved as List
|  owner.

> and (2)
> you invite the need to express anger because it is here, because it is
> honest,

I value *purposeful* and *conscious* involvement.

> but then choose to limit your own level of participation
> because "and I don't wish to write about that in a public forum." There
> is so much then that becomes contradictory about this list--the
> contraries which seem to operate have more potential I think to harm
> than to enlighten or to heal without the tempering of civility to help
> provide the container within which the alchemy might work.

I would like to hear how you think about that last paragraph now.  Perhaps
differently?  If not what would you propose that is different?

There is one more thing I want to add to this long post.

There is a situation that is on my mind with Psybernet, that it has not
taken the step of providing a range of PsyberGroups which all operate in
different ways.  That would by its nature require an extension and shift in
the nature of the whole project.  From my involvement with the DreamEvent
and several other lists I realise that it is a full time professional job.
I would like to see that shift occur and how to make that happen is on my
agenda.


Susan, I hope this is an ok discussion for you.  I feel (felt) somewhat
argumentative, but have no wish to put the debate above the relationship so
if my tone does that, it is involuntary!  Not a good excuse, but there it
is!


All the best


Walter




___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:44:53 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
In-Reply-To:  <3508a151.2132776@mail.xtra.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:13 AM 3/12/98 +0000, Walter wrote:

>This list is 100% consensus on being public.  It has always been public and
>that has always been stated in the documents.  By logging on to it that is
>the agreement.  Once here, people want it to be what it is not ... that
>reveals the unconscious processes at work.  Psyber-L is not our dream of
>Psyber-L, that says a lot about our yearning, our desires ... it is good
>that we reveal that ... but it would in my opinion be foolhardy to change
>the structure as people kick against it.  Bad alchemy if you know what i
>mean.

Well, This list is not 100% consensus on being public. I, for one, would
rather
it not be. Why not ask us all how we feel? At the moment it is public because
that is the rule...but maybe there are others who might like it to be more
private.
Certainly what we share will be modified by the degree of privacy we have
here.

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:03:21 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <35077D84.5DD407FE@sunbird.usd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>, on Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:15:32
-0600, you wrote:

>JoAnne
>>> >JoAnne--I am sad that you have projected this assessment onto me.
>>
>> What then was your point in responding to what I said by saying,
>> "People in
>> normal emotional health should be expected to reach out to one
>> another--and
>> none of this silliness of saying "you should be over this by now."
>> You
>> weren't saying this was my silliness?
>
>I wasn't projecting onto you at all. The phrase about the behavior of
>people in "normal emotional health" was designed to parallel what you
>had said and the "silliness" was my assessment of what I see from many
>people who object to others grieving publically. While not attributing
>this to you, I was indeed grouping this complex of behaviors together as
>in my experience I have seen them to occur together.  Whether they occur
>together in you is a separate issue and one which I have not addressed.

So address it, or address your problems with things I didn't say in another
post, or make it clear what you're attributing to me.

>> >There are non-violent
>> >ways to express anger, ways which do not lower us to the basest
>> >dimensions of humanity.  Often people who respond blindly in anger
>> are
>> >reacting to their own projections onto the world--just as you have
>> >responded to your projection of what I said and what I intended.
>>
>> How much diagnosis do you do with people you've never met?  I suppose
>> this
>> is responsible behavior?
>>
>
>I'm not diagnosing you. I am trying to generate a variety of possible
>explanations for your behavior which could take you out of the category
>of "vicious bitch" and into a category which might be more charitable.

That's funny, because the "certainty" you attribute to me later is pretty
clear in the above "Often people who respond blindly in anger are reactiont
to their own projections onto the world -- just as you have responded to
your projection of what I said and what I intended"

If this was not meant to say that I was reacting blindly in anger to my own
projections, then what is it meant to say?  You didn't say, it seems like
you might be.  You said, "just as you have."

>This is an important strategy of good interpersonal communication,
>generating multiple hypotheses for motives, so that one does not fall
>into a trap of projection and thus can interact with others with more
>understanding and responsibility.

But what alternative hypotheses have you generated?  I only see one.

>> If you didn't intend to say that I was telling Julienne and all people
>> in
>> grief to shut up and get over it, then you didn't express yourself
>> very
>> clearly.
>
>Certainly it was not clear to you. I have looked back over the posting
>and do believe that what I said was said plainly and clearly.  Howver, I
>cannot control the perceptions which might be projected onto it which
>might distort what was said and/or intended.

This is quite pretty.  Unfortunately it does not address the issue, merely
attributes my question to you as another symptom of my pathology.

> I have no problem with most of what you said, but I had a
>> big
>> problem with your attributing to me attitutes and opinions I do not
>> have.
>>
>Understood. And this is what I have not done. I gave a general response
>addressing the APPROACH you advocated without addressing you
>specifically and then I suggested multiple options to help explain why
>you might have reacted the way that you did.  I am quite certain that I
>have not attibuted attributes and opinions to you.

You're mumbling.  Speak up.  Is the APPROACH I "advocated" the one you
argued with, or not?  Please be clear about what you're arguing with.

>> Something you said triggered something, yes.  The part of me that
>> doesn't
>> like to be accused of things I haven't done.
>
>Understood also. Nor do I. And I have not accused you of anything. If
>you stand accused, it is from a boomerang effect of your own
>projections.

Again, all my problems are part of this peculiar pathology you see in me.
Which, again, I can accept or reject as one of your projections.  This is
why I don't like this game.

>> I react negatively to having your projections hung on me, Susan.  I
>> could
>> play the "perhaps your negative experiences with people I remind you
>> of
>> forced you to react to me in this way," but where will that take us?
>>
>> I doubt you want to be on the receiving end of that game.  Why would
>> you?
>> I don't like it either, when the game is being played this way.
>
>It might take us to a better understanding of one another since it was
>fairly clear to me that I was doing my dangdest to give you the benefit
>of the doubt despite a pretty nasty attack on me [and frankly no, I've
>never considered my name beautiful, even when others managed to spell it
>correctly,and have endured intense teasing about it throughout my
>life--and almost no one sings the tune to Suwanne River properly anyway
>and most people don't have the story of the ugly Duckling right either].

I do recall at least one person in our name discussion saying that Swan was
such a nice name, and no one saying anything unpleasant.  I don't think you
can make a very convincing argument that Swan is not a generally pleasant
association for adults to have with your name.

>Lay off a little bit JoAnne.  Yes defensiveness is natural if one is
>attacked--but you do generate attacks on you pretty much by yourself and
>then invite the cycle of defensiveness to begin by attacking others who
>are left dumbfounded as to where that came from and are invited to be
>defensive to your attack.

I'd love to see a diagram of that, Susan.  Other people's defensiveness is
okay but mine is not, seems to be the final conclusion?  When I offer my
opinion it is offensive, when you offer yours it is not?

>This pattern is fairly clear from a
>linguistic analysis of what is said in this posts and the defensive
>phrasings (indicating hidden agendas, superiority, certainty, and the
>like) appear in yours-- were there attacks preceding it, the same
>language would be evident in the earlier posts as well.

Could you explain about this linguistic analysis, how you applied it to my
posts, what the results are as applied to other people's posts, and your
own?  This feels one step removed from "I'm getting psychic vibrations that
tell me you are very, very, verrrry mentally ill" if you're not going to
support it.

>Try forgetting
>the name calling and discuss the issues. Julienne is not the wicked
>witch of the west, I am not the anti-Christ, and no one else here is out
>to get you either.

Well, I wouldn't have elevated either of you to such positions.  I'd put
Julienne in the "intelligent, mildly self-centered, situationally depressed
and not currently getting enough support in RL" category, and you are now
in the "intelligent, used to defining all your interactions with patients
with firm language and mysterious diagnoses, and everyone on this list is
your patient" category.  If you wish to be something bigger and more
exciting please elevate yourselves in your own minds.

I would ask, though.  Since Walter has considered this a good place to work
on projections, are you saying no projections should be allowed on this
list?  Clearly his agenda and yours are very different.  How do you expect
to resolve this difference of opinion?

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:03:15 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <35070f20.8698806@mail.xtra.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>, on Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:58:41
GMT, you wrote:

>JoAnne,
>
>> "I should mention that I have a lot of other alternative ways to handle
>> Julienne, being what I know of the Internet and the fact that we actually
>> do live in the same state."
>>
>> I took this to mean that if she were saying something untrue and libellous
>> about him, that he could sue her.  I can understand that there can be
>> different opinions on this, but for Julienne to state baldly that he
>> threatened to track her down off-list and have her hurt is just not
>> accurate.  She could say she felt threatened, believed he was hinting at
>> physical attack.  To say that he said it is another thing entirely.
>
>He does not say what it is, although at my request he clarified
>it later as legal action and "mail bombing".  In the first
>instance it was a veiled threat and it took the discussion out of
>the contained space here, into the physical world.  Veiled
>threats (and not that thinly veiled) are nasty because their very
>nature to provoke fear.

I didn't get a sense that he meant to provoke fear for her physical self.
But that's based on my experience of the wider reaches of the Internet,
where people offer to sue each other all the time.

>> >I think Julienne's words describe accurately enough what he says there,
>> >allowing for the fact that they refer to her.
>>
>> I guess I had a different interpretation.  But I'm not afraid of men and I
>> don't interpret all their actions and words as attacks.
>
>It is not an interpretation. He does not say what of the *many*
>things are.  It is reasonable to be afraid of some men.  It also
>pays to note when there is not an *explicit* threat.  I
>understand how his words prompt fear of attack, his words *are*
>intimidating, this is not just a projection onto them.

I grant that they could be intimidating to someone who's not as familiar
with Internet personalities as I am.  My interpretation was of a threat,
but not a threat of physical violence.  So there is an interpretation
issue.

>I am writing here not only with the *specifics* of this incident
>in mind ... but i am aware that the whole question of *what is
>real* and what is *our perception* is involved here.  I am all
>for the allowing & the even fostering of the consciousness of
>"hooks and eyes" to *be* here and express and create the
>co-unconsious psyche and mystery ... and this is possible if we
>can *also* see the limits to that.  In other words sometimes a
>cigar is also a cigar.

I like that hooks and eyes, remember them from sewing class and even
earlier, sewing at home.

That's been the big stumbling block, I think, that we use someone as a hook
and then insist that the person really is that hook.  It's very hard to
say, this is where the hook ends and the person begins.  There are no
specific time-outs or boundaries.  Things that are said are taken as
literal instead of hook-hanging.

>I think that we have a part in the creation of the psychological
>space we create.  I am conscious of that, and it is one of the
>main stated purposes of the list to be conscious of that.  As
>Charles & Robert have said recently in different words we build
>such a space over time through tradition through our
>participation not just through the stated purposes.

Amen to that!

>We can have a stage if we define the wings.
>
>> >We cannot guarantee that the list will be free or safe from all sorts of
>> >threats and attacks, however i think it is a good idea for us to notice and
>> >name what we see and be there with validation if we experience something as
>> >hurtful.  I would not expect anyone to be over this nor is the list over
>> >this in my opinion.  Clearly *I* am not over it.  I hated even searching
>> >for the message.
>>
>> Obviously we're not over it, we were never over it.
>
>
>True.  Thus the expression of grief and how it is best done,
>pertains primarily to *here* and Julienne and others who are
>grieving in their lives bring that to a group that has its own
>losses, and sad tales.  We are not a grief group, but a group in
>grief.

Very interesting notion.  What have we lost?  I felt as if I might be
channeling some Wilbur energy back there, and yet I was saying things
myself, too.  I missed him though others might not.  I miss Yseultt too but
can't get the tone right for that one.

>We have our departed and we quarrel over the legacy.  That is the
>nature of the process.
>
>JoAnne ... my grief is that Psyber-L  ... more accurately
>Psybernet is not what I dreamt it to be!  My acceptance of that
>is close, and can feel a joy, and an enthusiasm for what it *is*.
>Do you have something like that going on here?

Yes, I think so.  I feel that it is becoming more focused or real or
somehow itself much more than it ever was.  But that could be illusion.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:52:28 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I surrender Joanne--You choose to take apart the pieces you want,
misunderstanding what suits your purposes best and ignoring what
anyones tries to say to the contrary. Nothing I say will ever make any
difference to your understanding of what you thought was said.This is a
pattern established here in the past and led to a variety of squirmishes
where you play this game.
 Clearly you know little about me given you clearly creating me as a
therapist. I am a university professor in Communication whose speciality
is language and the creation of social reality.  I have especially
focused on issues of deference and power as well as issues of
defensiveness and supportiveness in interpersonal relations as they
relate especially to abuse. I know what I am talking about when I
analyze the patterns of interaction in terms of deference and support.
In these instances I do use a tone of certainty because I am certain. I
attribute no pathology to you--poor skills in communication perhaps and
an unwillingness to work from a basis of mutual respect, but no
pathology. That attribution is generated solely from within yourself.
        The issue of projections here is to WORK on them, which means
acknowledging them and then working on them, something which I see you
unwilling to do even when you are called on it by others. Instead you
degenerate into name calling as an attempt to avoid just such work. I
don't need to resolve the difference of opinion between Walter and
I--some of it is long standing and more an issue of philosophy than
anything else.  I get annoyed with him once in a while and he may get
annoyed with me, but we each respect the other and have managed to talk
together on line for some years now, sometimes intensely as in the Dream
Group, sometimes less so as in the past few months. At times it seems
necessary to talk about the differences in view and I suspect each of us
have altered our thinking at least somewhat as a result of the other as
we each come to new understandings over time. We can do this because we
talk directly and frankly, sometimes even angrily, but without abuse or
viciousness. This is not something I see from you very often.  Abuse is
not acceptable nor do I have to accept it. You've simply been placed in
a delete file since I chose no longer to remain open to abuse from you.
                        Susan

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:57:22 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter--I'll get back to you on this. Yes,I was feeling a bit annoyed
and will work to clarify a bit more my concerns. Thanks for such a
thoughtful response.
                        Susan

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:37:22 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <35084B0C.88CAFCB6@sunbird.usd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>, on Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:52:28
-0600, you wrote:

>I surrender Joanne--You choose to take apart the pieces you want,
>misunderstanding what suits your purposes best and ignoring what
>anyones tries to say to the contrary. Nothing I say will ever make any
>difference to your understanding of what you thought was said.

It's amazing.

Nothing can change what I thought you said, because that's in the past.  I
had a belief.

Now, as to what I believe you said or meant, that can be changed.  You
haven't come up with anything to counter that first belief except for
weasel words.  You don't bother to say, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that,
perhaps I was unclear.  You say, you're projecting.

That's a bit presumptuous, and the most tiresome excuse for poor writing or
error and subsequent stiff-neckedness I can remember hearing.

>This is a
>pattern established here in the past and led to a variety of squirmishes
>where you play this game.

Nice slip, it's skirmish not squirmish.

> Clearly you know little about me given you clearly creating me as a
>therapist. I am a university professor in Communication whose speciality
>is language and the creation of social reality.

I'm only describing what I see.  I guess you want to be a therapist, want
to fix people up.  I'm not your chemistry set, though.

>I have especially
>focused on issues of deference and power as well as issues of
>defensiveness and supportiveness in interpersonal relations as they
>relate especially to abuse. I know what I am talking about when I
>analyze the patterns of interaction in terms of deference and support.

If you do you don't explain anything about it.  So how am I to know you
know what you're talking about?  You only give us your conclusions, which
may be good, may be bad.  I'd rather see the worksheets, so to speak, so
that we may discuss it as equals, not the conclusions, presented by the
expert.  Or am I too dull to grasp it?  I don't think I am, but if I am,
let me discover for myself.

>In these instances I do use a tone of certainty because I am certain. I
>attribute no pathology to you--poor skills in communication perhaps and
>an unwillingness to work from a basis of mutual respect, but no
>pathology. That attribution is generated solely from within yourself.

I don't see respect from you.  I don't really know why you would think I am
going to lie down and be your patient, experiment, social reality
construct, whatever, without knowing much about you, and why you would
think I would accept or respect your conclusions without knowing anything
about your thought process or reasoning.

I am disappointed that you won't explain your references to syntactic
analysis.  I don't doubt you could, but you are not willing to do so.  Are
you afraid that you will be wrong somewhere?  Good golly miss molly, that's
not so terrible, is it?  Or is it?

>        The issue of projections here is to WORK on them, which means
>acknowledging them and then working on them, something which I see you
>unwilling to do even when you are called on it by others.

I have discussed my projections before.  Are you ignoring that or
discounting that?

I tried a discussion of bananabeans a while ago and then Julienne decided
to own the bananabean and identify with it so it was no longer possible to
discuss bananabeans as a projection.  Is there a word for willingly draping
oneself with someone's projection and then complaining mightily when the
projection is being speared?

>Instead you
>degenerate into name calling as an attempt to avoid just such work.

Ah.  What names have I called you?

>I
>don't need to resolve the difference of opinion between Walter and
>I--some of it is long standing and more an issue of philosophy than
>anything else.  I get annoyed with him once in a while and he may get
>annoyed with me, but we each respect the other and have managed to talk
>together on line for some years now, sometimes intensely as in the Dream
>Group, sometimes less so as in the past few months. At times it seems
>necessary to talk about the differences in view and I suspect each of us
>have altered our thinking at least somewhat as a result of the other as
>we each come to new understandings over time. We can do this because we
>talk directly and frankly, sometimes even angrily, but without abuse or
>viciousness.

I wonder what syntactic analysis would uncover in your exceptionally
frequent use of the words abuse and viciousness.  It's like a mantra.
Julienne could probably help us with that, since she knows something about
hypnotherapy.  Why would someone keep repeating "abuse and viciousness"?
To convince others to see it?

Why is all anger "abuse"?  Where is real anger, Susan, and what is it?

>This is not something I see from you very often.  Abuse is
>not acceptable nor do I have to accept it. You've simply been placed in
>a delete file since I chose no longer to remain open to abuse from you.

Aha.  Bury that hydra head, Susan.  You are quite good at rejecting the
image you don't want to see, and avoiding the questions that might actually
come out with some kind of answers.  I'm sorry you aren't willing to deal
with power issues as your study would suggest.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:00:54 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Why not ask us all how we feel?
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980312114120.00fc5940@postoffice.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julienne,

> Well, This list is not 100% consensus on being public. I, for one, would
> rather
> it not be. Why not ask us all how we feel? At the moment it is public because
> that is the rule...but maybe there are others who might like it to be more
> private.
> Certainly what we share will be modified by the degree of privacy we have
> here.

I was being a bit argumentative ... consensus is easy here when we
*subscribe* that is the one time we agree on something, albeit with
different perceptions and knowledge.  Even if it is not agreement, there is
a common willingness to give something a go.  Getting it later in the
discussion seems impossible and when it comes to this question of the
archives it is  one of those things I think rests in the hands of the list
owner.

Julienne!  Here we are talking about the list owning ... I thought you had
some distaste for that?

I say in the hands of the list owner, not Walter, because i think of it as
a *role*, a job.  Do you still run a list?  How do you decide how open or
closed it is, how it is moderated, how it is archived?  Do you state these
things up front?  On what basis would you change them?  Do you think of
different list requiring different contours?

In the last paragraph of my post to Susan I mention that PsyberGroups are
on my agenda.  The open nature of this list makes more sense if we think of
other associated spaces that are closed.  Some could be *very* closed
others less so.  I will be doing something in this regard at some point.
Others can do so at any time of course.

Another reason for the public nature of this list, is that the membership
is open.  I believe that open membership is best coupled with open archives
in a psychological list such as this.  Any one can join and read the
archives anyway, thus to make them available to the list only creates a
sense of privacy that is not matched by the reality, especially in a crisis
situation, for example should someone wish to check what has been said
about them.

So how we "all feel" is one thing.  I would not see that as a vote.  How
people are thinking about these architectural questions and the creation of
the broader Psybernet project is certainly of interest to me, and that will
influence my next steps in cyberspace.  Architecture, in real space or in
cyberspace, is not democratic, that is not its nature.


Walter





___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:10:11 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      (fwd) I am Meeseo(a request).
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:13:18 KST, ksypks@unitel.co.kr wrote:

 Walter

Hello!
I am Meeseo.

I can't send my e-mail by netscape browser.
     (troubles in ISP)
I just sent my email by unitel.
I realize it's impossible for it to reach there(Psybe-L),
          because It has a different address.
So I send my e-mail to you.
  If my email sent to Psyber-L by unitel is refused,
         please send this mail to Psyber-L instead of me.
 I am sorry.
 Bye.
         sincerely yours..Meeseo


"struggle against our shadows in mind"

all..

It's spring.
I saw a magnolia flower..
    ..White..and pure...
....It's very beautiful only for it's existence.

I can't check my e-mails at yahoo since yesterday.
I don't know what's going on there.

But..
Deep grief..

Please...
Instead of hate and anger,
Give us "love and respect and care" to each other.

This is not a temple...
But..
We can make it a holy place
            where many people feel good and happy.

Simultaneously...

We can make it a hell
             where all people hate one anot
her.

We are too weak, too fragile..
We are all hurt by "not being loved",
                   "not being respected"..

Please..
 Instead of a evil power,
 Give us a good power
         that we can struggle against our inner shadows.

Please
Forgive us...

I love Psyber-L and all of us..

Meeseo.



___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:59:46 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Lists
In-Reply-To:  <350b5ba2.49836309@mail.xtra.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:00 PM 3/12/98 +0000, Walter wrote:

>Julienne,
>
>> Well, This list is not 100% consensus on being public. I, for one, would
>> rather  it not be. Why not ask us all how we feel? At the moment it is
public because
>> that is the rule...but maybe there are others who might like it to be more
>> private.  Certainly what we share will be modified by the degree of
privacy we have
>> here.

>I was being a bit argumentative ... consensus is easy here when we
>*subscribe* that is the one time we agree on something, albeit with
>different perceptions and knowledge.  Even if it is not agreement, there is
>a common willingness to give something a go.  Getting it later in the
>discussion seems impossible and when it comes to this question of the
>archives it is  one of those things I think rests in the hands of the list
>owner.

On the other hand, we do subscribe before we see the "rules". :)

>Julienne!  Here we are talking about the list owning ... I thought you had
>some distaste for that?

For listowning?

>I say in the hands of the list owner, not Walter, because i think of it as
>a *role*, a job.  Do you still run a list?  How do you decide how open or
>closed it is, how it is moderated, how it is archived?  Do you state these
>things up front?  On what basis would you change them?  Do you think of
>different list requiring different contours?

I still run three lists - one astrology, one children, one psychology. I made
a purposeful decision. from the beginning, not to own a list alone, and so
in each case I have a partner to work with. The partner and I work together
to decide all these questions.


My partner on the Psych list has a strong sense of how he wants things, and
although this is discussed somewhat, it is mostly done his way. He is a
computer expert, and so runs the archives, etc., himself. He and I disagree
on a number of things, but we just keep chatting away about things...I hope
he'll
listen to me, but he doesn't seem to pay much attention to what Isay, so I
pretty much let him do what he wants, as I don't think it's important
enough to
make a fuss about.

On the astrology list, my partner and I discuss everything, and
fortuitously, seem
to agree with each almost if not all the time - no matter who comes up with
an idea
first. We've known each other a number of years, and like and respect each
other
and communicate very easily and smoothly. We also consult with the
listmembers,
and they have input into the web site, etc., which is my partner's
responsibility.
There was discussion at firstabout whether the list would be closed or not,
but we have left it open. I thought it was archived, but just discovered our
archivist had apparently not done the job, and so we are now looking for a
new archivist - with discussions with the listmembers about this. Anyone
here know a good archivist? :)

The third list - the children - is not a very active list, and it just sort
of quietly
moves along in spurts. The woman running it with me lives in New Zealand,
and we get along fine.

I'm not a very authoritarian person, and I don't have a ton of rules. Am
happy to post our "welcome" if people here would like to see it. Nor am I
very self-conscious about the list. "the list" isn't as important as the
people
on it, and I don't spend a lot of time analysing its purpose, character, or
my
role, as you do with this list, Walter. However, something you said in
another post struck a bell with me Walter. I would love the lists to be full
of wonderful and brilliant and insightful discussions, and sometimes it
is. But a lot of the time it isn't. I'm also aware that I may be too self-
conscious about it to be a good judge... When there'sa lull, I feel a
great responsibility to start threads...

>Another reason for the public nature of this list, is that the membership
>is open.  I believe that open membership is best coupled with open archives
>in a psychological list such as this.  Any one can join and read the
>archives anyway, thus to make them available to the list only creates a
>sense of privacy that is not matched by the reality, especially in a crisis
>situation, for example should someone wish to check what has been said
>about them.

This is a problem, perhaps.

>So how we "all feel" is one thing.  I would not see that as a vote.  How
>people are thinking about these architectural questions and the creation of
>the broader Psybernet project is certainly of interest to me, and that will
>influence my next steps in cyberspace.  Architecture, in real space or in
>cyberspace, is not democratic, that is not its nature.

Why do you say that?

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:58:15 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:

> Remember we had a person here who left quickly
> once, who said we all spoke Shakespearian, or Victorian English here?  So
> be it!
>

If I recall his/her nomme de guerre was "August Goforth"  and he was upset by
the "Arthurian English" written here.  Come to think of it this name rings a
bell as some sort of historical figure, but nothing is coming up via search
engines or encyclopedia.  Anyone have a clue?

> Jim, I think you and i differ on our perceptions of therapy quite a bit,
> though I found it heartening that you moved toward Robert a lot more
> through this process.  I want get back to you on that.

I've no doubt we do differ on the topic of therapy quite a bit Walter and I'd
welcome this discussion.  Who knows - if I shout loudly enough you may come to
recognize the intrinsic rightness of my position (as I smirk largely and ask,
is there such a beast as 'intrinsic rightness'?).  Anyhow - your turn.

...Jim

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:16:24 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Running to the Periphery
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Joanne,

I had a nice day, hope things are going OK for you too.  The kids were a
bit cranky at breakfast and the youngest (who'se 4) couldn't understand
why I didn't want him to wear the same pants for the 5th day in a row
but all went well and I was only a couple of minutes late for work.
Work was really exciting today because it was announced that our company
just bought another company for 1.2 billion dollars.  This is big bucks
and it probably means my job is  lot more secure so I'm pretty happy.
For the people at the other company it probably wasn't such a great day
because lots and lots of them will probably lose their jobs.

I was reading a book tonight titled "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" and it
had an excellent chapter about how to let go of the need to be right.
The author pointed out that this need costs us all lots of energy and
really gets in the way of developing good relationships.  He asked an
interesting question, "When was the last time you proved to somebody
that they were wrong and you were right?  Did they say, "Gee thanks, I
was really out to lunch there and I really appreciate you setting me
straight."  Personally, I don't remember anyone ever saying that to me
and I know I've been right lots of times, just ask me.  How about you,
any thank you's?

Anyhow ... life goes on and its ok to be cranky once in a while, but
being cranky isn't good when it becomes a habit.  People stop listening
and start imagining they're listening to Monty Python doing "Hello, I'm
here for an argument."

Regards,

Jim

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:49:38 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cory Jones <xcjones@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Projections, hooks, personas

Dear Robert,

I was interested to see your take on the *projection* theme.  I mentioned
before
how the issue continually reappears in my life, projecting my mental
images onto strangers, and how I've now begun to create mental images of
the unseen members of PSYBER-L.  Your comments seem illuminating:

>Perhaps the images you construct are just as valid (perhaps more so)
than those which are
>based on "physical appearance".  How many of us wished that others could
>see/hear the "real" person that we feel that we are?  How many of us are
>faced with trying to redefine the perception of ourselves wrongly cast
>by f2f re-constructions?  This is part of cyberspace's liberating and
>democraticizing attributes . . .  Anyone I know who
>is older is quick to state that the face they see in the mirror doesn't
>reflect the sense of "Self" that is felt.  In fact, sometimes that face
>is more of a mask, an inflicted mask which sets one outside.  In
>cyberspace, our words have a better chance of revealing the real person
>beneath the skin.

Well spoken Robert!  I get your drift, and what you say means much to me.
 I think you have touched upon one of the unplanned but most noble
properties of the Internet---to allow people to share their real selves
with other people, to be vulnerable and honest, without any physical
masks getting in the way . . . .

. . . although I suppose that even in e-mail a *mask* of sorts can be
tossed up onto the computer screen, and there *screen out* those noble
aspirations of being truly open and vulnerable.  Hmm . . . got to keep
exploring . . .

Peace to all,

Mr. Cory Jones

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:23:23 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <v04003a00b12c906abb69@[207.54.160.151]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jim,

Promted by your note I am replying to:

> Date:         Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:45:51 -0500
> From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
> Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core

I had to fish it out of the archives as I am having computer
troubles, luckily Agent can "paste as quote".  This is a total
aside but I am interested in changing to Outlook, which is nice
in so many ways but little luxuries like this, and being able to
spell check only my writing and not all the quoted stuff are
small things that MS just misses by a mile when it comes to
email.


> Lastly, and again from my experience and from a review of the available
> research - people suffering from depression rarely recover when their only
> treatment is psychotherapy.  When the treatment is with medication alone,
> they recover approximately 80% of the time - but remain very prone to
> relapse.  When both modalities are pursued, the recovery rate is the same as
> for medication and the likelihood of relapse is greatly reduced (probably
> because the person benefits from the psychotherapy and is therefore able to
> change the depressive aspects of their life).  I have almost certainly
> oversimplified here and will probably be pilloried (sp?) for having
> sacrificed a sacred cow - but what the hell.

Well see what my speller has to say about pilloried!  No pillory
intended ...  but it would seem only non therapists set much
store by so called research.  I don't think it can actually be
done in the way you describe.  Were you here when we had the last
discussion on this?  What is the criteria for getting well?

For example, i have been working with a person in grief over a
relationship ending.  This has triggered all sorts of other
stuff, which grief usually does.  Work performance is down.
Luckily this person can pay for therapy and is ok about it taking
a its own time, there is no agency watching, which means it can
actually happen.  Priority over work is "getting to the core"
which seems to necessitate troubled times and days off, and trips
away.  Major crisis, being handled in a major way.

Now I can do the "soulwork" on this that Hoon describes, the
interpretation on it that i make, is that the person is going
through it in a way that they will have a better marriage next
time, that cancers and other diseases will be avoided, that
parenting will improve dramatically and that the spiritual side
of life can emerge later in a more natural and full way.  There
is no way i can prove any of this, even if it all comes to pass,
how can anyone say that it was the therapy, even the client wont
know that.  I "know" it!

In the meantime work performance is down, there are spells of
intense sadness.

I am quite non-directive of this process, but know therapists who
do cognitive restructuring and so on, to speed this process up.
I know how to do that too, I think it is unethical as this is
life's way of opening doors into the psyche ... there is far too
much pressure on us not to allow the doors to open.

How would research handle this?  I reckon they'd get it wrong by
and large.  Would the person have been categorised as
"depressed".  I think the criteria would have been met.  I don't
think of it as depressed at all, so even in what we are measuring
there is little agreement, and much mis-lablineg, as grief does
not come up in the DSM IV (correct me if i am wrong), and on some
forms we have to put something "medical".

What is the illness and what is the outcome, and what is therapy?
I know what i do in my room and what i call psychotherapy, but it
*ceases* to be that when there is a researcher there, or a tape
or a camera ... we are dealing with the psyche that is present in
the room and any audience is part of the psyche.  Thus there is a
Hiesenberg (sp) principle at work, if we view it changes.

These things i am saying here of course create hell for the
therapists (who think along these lines) and the people who can
allocate resources to therapy, and the relationship.  I can
understand the problem for a manager!  I don't know the answers.
Upstairs in this building where I work there is a practice that
will supply nothing other than a receipt to the client and
guarantees 100% confidentiality of the therapy process -- it
makes sense to me, but some people can really benefit from
funding that would not be available under those circumstances.  I
usually find some workable way.

Enough for now,




Walter









You've got a family and a life,
> why not go the route that gives you the best odds of getting back to enjoying
> it?  Anita guessed that I may be some kind of official involved in approving
> sick leaves and thats true - this task is a small part of my work.  For what
> its worth - in my opinion your situation as you describe it is legitimate.
> These benefits are intended to allow people the opportunity to heal (both
> broken bones and spirits) without having to contend with additional financial
> hardship.  I hope all works out for the best for you.
>
>
>
> ...Jim
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Back to: Top of message | Previous page | Main PSYBER-L page
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> <Picture><Picture><Picture>Back to the index page.
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:17:12 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Lists
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980312210904.00fd4650@postoffice.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Julienne,


> On the other hand, we do subscribe before we see the "rules". :)

Not as far as i know.  The main way to sub is from some description of thee
list, either the email version or the Web site and in there it states:

|  = Psyber-L Perameters =
|  The parameters of the list are set by the list owner, any
|  to the settings will be clearly notified in the list.  Current
|  settings:
|
|  * Psyber-L is open to all, anyone can sub at any time
|    and there is no vetting or verification of identity.
|
|  * The list is un-moderated, in the sense that all messages
|    are instantly posted, and not pre-viewed in any way.
|
|  * The archives are public. They can be viewed by members
|    and non-members of the list, by email and on the Web.

Not everyone reads them but the information is there right near where it
tells you how to sub.  They are not exactly "rules" in that every list must
have these options set in some way and they are not things anyone has to
obey.

> >Julienne!  Here we are talking about the list owning ... I thought you had
> >some distaste for that?
>
> For listowning?

Talking about it, I was thinking.


> ... but he doesn't seem to pay much attention to what Isay, so I
> pretty much let him do what he wants, as I don't think it's important
> enough to make a fuss about.

It is probably more that you think it is not important.

> I thought it was archived, but just discovered our
> archivist had apparently not done the job, and so we are now looking for a
> new archivist - with discussions with the listmembers about this. Anyone
> here know a good archivist? :)

The Lsoft Listserv archives automatically and has the file available by
email or on the web.  It requires only the options to be set, and no
further intervention, apart from paying for the space in this case.

> The third list - the children - is not a very active list, and it just sort
> of quietly
> moves along in spurts. The woman running it with me lives in New Zealand,
> and we get along fine.

Do you think I might know her?  Its a small place!

> I'm not a very authoritarian person, and I don't have a ton of rules. Am
> happy to post our "welcome" if people here would like to see it.

I am interested.



> Nor am I
> very self-conscious about the list. "the list" isn't as important as the
> people
> on it, and I don't spend a lot of time analysing its purpose, character, or
> my
> role, as you do with this list, Walter.

That makes sense, that is one of the things this list is for, I would not
do it on lists that did not have that as their purpose.  I think the way we
set up these things has a huge impact, and it is worth studying and
discussing but not in every list!

> However, something you said in
> another post struck a bell with me Walter. I would love the lists to be full
> of wonderful and brilliant and insightful discussions, and sometimes it
> is. But a lot of the time it isn't. I'm also aware that I may be too self-
> conscious about it to be a good judge... When there'sa lull, I feel a
> great responsibility to start threads...

That is a sort of "facilitation" role I guess.  I wonder what would happen
if you let it be?

> >So how we "all feel" is one thing.  I would not see that as a vote.  How
> >people are thinking about these architectural questions and the creation of
> >the broader Psybernet project is certainly of interest to me, and that will
> >influence my next steps in cyberspace.  Architecture, in real space or in
> >cyberspace, is not democratic, that is not its nature.
>
> Why do you say that?

I was thinking of the etymology the arch having to do with chief, as in
arch-angel.  Also that committees cant do it, and hire an architect to
design something ... the role of the architect is to listen and to assess
the needs of the occupants but not to be swayed in directions contrary to
professional and aesthetic autonomy.


Walter
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:24:46 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Running to the Periphery
In-Reply-To:  <3508B317.CF748F5B@easynet.on.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>, on Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:16:24
-0500, you wrote:

>I was reading a book tonight titled "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" and it
>had an excellent chapter about how to let go of the need to be right.
>The author pointed out that this need costs us all lots of energy and
>really gets in the way of developing good relationships.  He asked an
>interesting question, "When was the last time you proved to somebody
>that they were wrong and you were right?  Did they say, "Gee thanks, I
>was really out to lunch there and I really appreciate you setting me
>straight."  Personally, I don't remember anyone ever saying that to me
>and I know I've been right lots of times, just ask me.  How about you,
>any thank you's?

Not too often, though sometimes they do come around.

I think I was going towards that point in characterizing the argument on
one of my lists as "I'm good, you're bad, here's why, now why don't you
like me?"

>Anyhow ... life goes on and its ok to be cranky once in a while, but
>being cranky isn't good when it becomes a habit.  People stop listening
>and start imagining they're listening to Monty Python doing "Hello, I'm
>here for an argument."

No you're not.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:24:45 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Lists
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980312210904.00fd4650@postoffice.att.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:59:46
-0500, you wrote:

>However, something you said in
>another post struck a bell with me Walter. I would love the lists to be full
>of wonderful and brilliant and insightful discussions, and sometimes it
>is. But a lot of the time it isn't. I'm also aware that I may be too self-
>conscious about it to be a good judge... When there'sa lull, I feel a
>great responsibility to start threads...

I think this is one of Julienne's best qualities as a list
owner/operator/whatever we're calling it.  She is very dedicated to keeping
her lists active and alive and has done so through many trying
circumstances.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:32:11 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Lists
In-Reply-To:  <350f6502.89020750@mail.clark.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 05:24 PM 3/13/98 +0000, JoAnne wrote:
>Hello Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>, on Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:59:46
>-0500, you wrote:
>
>>However, something you said in
>>another post struck a bell with me Walter. I would love the lists to be full
>>of wonderful and brilliant and insightful discussions, and sometimes it
>>is. But a lot of the time it isn't. I'm also aware that I may be too self-
>>conscious about it to be a good judge... When there'sa lull, I feel a
>>great responsibility to start threads...
>
>I think this is one of Julienne's best qualities as a list
>owner/operator/whatever we're calling it.  She is very dedicated to keeping
>her lists active and alive and has done so through many trying
>circumstances.

JoAnne,

Thank you.

JoAnne and I are on each other's astrological lists now, and have been for
some months - since last Fall, I think.

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:37:18 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter--Thanks again for your thoughtful response to my posting on anger
and on your role. I think I'm ready to take a turn in this conversation
now from a more thoughtful perpsective myself.
        A note first on process: In responding I am going to  try an approach
that I used to use here, namely to give a wholistic response rather than
going through your posting point by point. From a psyche perspective,
somehow for me the point by point approach encourages argumentativenss
and picking apart rather than understanding and connectedness between
ideas. This may be part of my personality (I'm highly intuitive and more
feeling or values oriented than thinking or formally logical in my
processing of information) or it may be a part of a larger issue of
wholeness versus separateness. It might be an interesting point of
discussion in making sense of our process as a whole here in
psyber-space. for me anyway, it suggests that the quoting facility of
e-mail programs can have a disruptive effect  on the quality of the
conversation which occurs.
        enough of the side-note.  In "taking my turn" in this conversation, I
think I'd like to talk about two isses mainly: (1) the nature and place
of anger here (or anywhere else for that matter) and (2) my view of the
list and your role.  You are right that I was annoyed when I wrote my
post to you and I'll try to make it clearer here why and to own that
directly rather than letting it merely exist in terms of tone or
sub-text.
        On the Nature of Anger. I do not equate anger with abuse, although to
be honest it has been a long journey for me to arrive at this
separation. I grew up in a VERY angry household and that anger was
intimately linked with abuse physically and verbally. I have struggled
with what I suppose might be called animus projections for some time and
am becoming more and more conscious of when I am projecting and when I
am perceiving without the projections. Part of what I had to discover in
the process is that part of what I used to think were projections were
not; they were fairly accurate perceptions of the intertwining of anger
and abuse in the behavior of others (and more broadly in western
culture).  It was far easier to individually say that it was my problem,
my projections of a wounded psyche onto the behavior of others, than to
realize that the level of abuse systemically was so high. I also came to
realize that very few of us, including myself all too often, have the
skills to be able to be angry without being abusive. It takes a real
awareness of self to own anger and not immediately lash out in blame at
others. And also, very often, it seems that the identification of the
emotion/response as anger is not wholly honest, that behind that mask of
anger [masking meaning here a presentation of a part of self, not
necessarily a false front] is a core of pain and self-doubt and even
self-hatred.  My struggle with your saying that we seem to need anger in
this place simply because we feel it is more in terms of where it was
located than with a blanket rejection of what you say. If we are to
interact in a truly honest fashion here, yes anger is a part of that,
but honesty carries with it responsibility (response-ability) for owning
our own anger and for exploring the pain which lies behind it.  For your
statement to come in the middle of JoAnne's latest salvos though takes
what she is doing and implicitly says it is okay; whether that is
precisely what you intended or not, the conversational structure invites
that interpretation. And I VERY strongly take issue with that
implication. While you may not equate anger with abuse, by responding to
my posting about the need to separate anger and abuse by saying that we
seem to need anger here it validates the behavior of JoAnne in a way you
perhaps do not see for her expressions of anger tend to be highly
abusive, attacking the person rather than the ideas and making such
attacks in ways that are wholly unrelated to the topic. There is a
construct in my discipline known as verbal aggression; it is a
manifestation of anger in an abusive form. All of the research on this
construct shows that such behavior is typically due to a lack of
interpersonal and communication skills, and it is highly linked with not
only dissatisfaction in relations and reduced ability to problem-solve
for the good of a relationship, but also escalating abuse in a
relationship (verbal abuse is virtually always a precursor to physical
abuse too). Your recurring (or at least it seems to me recurring)
validation of anger without recurring caveats that abuse is not
acceptable here validates the abusive forms which anger can take and
places no value on more responsible forms of expressing anger. Such
validation does indeed establish norms of viciousness, norms which then
allow JoAnne (and others in the past) to continue to respond in such
fashion, seeing it as acceptable.
        In responding to my critique of your behavior, I think you missed part
of the point by taking it apart and responding in pieces. what I said
was "You invite a level of deep expression which should perhaps only
occur within therapy, deny your role in guiding the process in a way
wich is safe for all, and then refuse to provide your own deep
expression by citing this as a public list. " The 3 aspects of this
critique are intertwined and cannot be separated without losing my
point. To invite the depth ["we seem to *need* anger in this place ...
simply because we feel it, to have the honest that Hoon saw in us so
generously] without simultaneously sharing in the responsibility for
doing that safely/respectfully and thus calling it to
attention/awareness is not honest, in my mind. There quite unfortunately
are norms for viciousness here and have been ever since I entered this
list several years ago; in fact, my first post was an objection to a
turn toward viciousness which I saw happening. I've no idea if that
characterized what happened here before, but it has regularly been a
part of hwat has happened here since. And my perception is that you have
encouraged such behavior, both passively by never (in my recollection,
with the possible exception of Wilbur's threats toward Julienne)
suggesting that such behavior/abuse was not appropriate here and
actively by even glorifying at times the intensity which accompanied the
attacking outbursts. This is regardless of whether you are in the formal
role of facilitator or not; to invite no-holds-barred strikes me as
problematic, even unethical. But because you were in the role of
facilitator (and because even though you have redefined yourself as
merely list-owner, you still carry a level of influence here which you
may not be acknowledging) what you say carries great weight than you may
realize or prefer.  Thus even a direct reminder that, for example, "ad
hominem attack, that is, attack of the person rather than their ideas is
not welcome" is a part of description of being a part of Psyber-L and
thus is supposed to be a guide for interactions here would be in order
for you, but I don't see it occuring. And as facilitator (formerly) and
list-owner (now), by not addressing this more directly when it so
obviously occurs, that to me is saying that it is a norm and that such
abuse (which surely an ad hominem attack is, along with other verbally
abusive behaviors) is acceptable here.  Labeling such behavior even
implicitly as anger and saying we *need* it here while not labeling it
as aggression/viciousness promotes its continuation, both within a
single episode and across time.
        Andthis gives me a nice segue over into the other issue which is the
nature of the list and your role in it. I am not sure how long the
statement on "ad hominem attack" had been included here; simply posting
a new version of the welcome file without directly discussing what has
been changed and why does not really invite input. While this list is
important to me and I see the potential for it realized once in a while
and therefore I stick with it as much as I am able, it is not my life; i
can't read through a whole new welcome file and know what is different
unless I have successive copies of the old version for a direct
comparison.In addition, claiming that because we are all subscribed to
the list creates "100% consensus" on anything, much less its being
public is not logical. Something must have happened over the years in
terms of how "public" public is because prior to the Dream Event, I
recall very little discussion of the issue and to be honest never got a
sense of it being truly public, except in the sense that anyone could
actually subscribe and then have access to the files. I only recall it
becoming an issue when the software bacame available to do a search
using someone's name and then pull up archived info from that person {to
be honest, my one attempt at this turned up so many Susan Swan's that it
left me feeling relatively untouched anyway}. I do know that it has been
discussed on list and to be honest don't really recall anyone except you
arguing that it should be truly public (I will acknowledge the
possibility that this may be selective memory on my part); simply
agreeing to go along with you because we have no choice in the matter in
no way is a sign of 100% consensus. In fact what it may say is that we
value the potential of this space enough to "put up" with this aspect of
how you've defined the list, but there may be in actuality no consensus
at all except within yourself. I know then for me that it feels
frustrating for you to say that you won't talk about X, Y, or Z because
it is a public list since it is your decision that it is public. To me
this is the same sort of contrary that says you invite anger (following
an episode of abuse rather than responsible anger), but won't promise to
listen to the discussions which result (?because they are too hot?). I
do think the civility must be the container within which our work here
is to be be done, a real commitment to no ad hominem attacks and other
viciousness in the guise of honest anger and purposeful/conscious
involvement. By this I don't mean a false civility, an intervweaving of
white lies and social platitudes to avoid strong emotions and
honest/aware interaction, but a true civility, based on
response-ability, mutual respect, and dialogue toward greater
understanding, not monologue toward anhiliation of whoever doesn't see
things "my" way.  toward that end, I am working hard at being civil
here. I disagree with you, feel that it is important to name what I see
happening as a contribution to the dialogue (with a wish to both be
understood for what i am trying to say and to understand you more
fully)--also,I have tremendous respect and indeed affection for you. As
you say, I "have no wish to put the debate above the relationship"!! You
have been here in depth in the past which is in part why I feel
comfortable in being able to express my annoyance and disagrement. I
trust you and trust the process of interacting with you directly.
                                Susan

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Mar 1998 00:00:18 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <350998FE.ADAF041B@sunbird.usd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>, on Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:37:18
-0600, you wrote:

>While you may not equate anger with abuse, by responding to
>my posting about the need to separate anger and abuse by saying that we
>seem to need anger here it validates the behavior of JoAnne in a way you
>perhaps do not see for her expressions of anger tend to be highly
>abusive, attacking the person rather than the ideas and making such
>attacks in ways that are wholly unrelated to the topic. There is a
>construct in my discipline known as verbal aggression; it is a
>manifestation of anger in an abusive form. All of the research on this
>construct shows that such behavior is typically due to a lack of
>interpersonal and communication skills, and it is highly linked with not
>only dissatisfaction in relations and reduced ability to problem-solve
>for the good of a relationship, but also escalating abuse in a
>relationship (verbal abuse is virtually always a precursor to physical
>abuse too).

Sounds like a diagnosis to me.  A rather unflattering one, at that.

JoAnne, not a patient patient

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:22:30 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     RFC822 error: <W> MESSAGE-ID field duplicated. Last occurrence
              was retained.
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Fwd: Welcome to stars !!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi,
You asked me about CHA*OS. Here is the welcome letter which we send to new
members, which is probably the best way I can explain it for you.

Warmly,

Julienne


        WELCOME TO THE CHA*OS ASTROLOGY MAILING LIST

In naming this List, "CHA*OS", we are envisioning the primordial potential;
the joyful primal order and foundations out of which all creation emerges,
from which all things are potentially possible, and out of which emerges the
instinct for inspired growth and transformation. Within this CHAOS* lies a
fundamental ORDER, or KOSMOS, and it is from the interplay between these two
polar urges, CHAOS and KOSMOS, that manifestation occurs, ever creating
beyond itself in cycle within cycle, cycle upon cycle.

The CH*AOS List is a group effort. It arises out of the organization,
C*H*A*O*S, which was founded May 27, 1994, 23:59, Chicago, Illinois, USA, as
a loosely-federated, egalitarian union of astrologers. It first appeared on
the Internet as an informal group, on April 1, 1995, 17:00, Bearsville, NY,
USA.  After a long hiatus from the Internet, it was reborn September 11,
1996, 21:58:59, South Plainfield, New Jersey, USA. Many of you are already
members of the organization, and if you are not, you are welcome
to join with us in the organization as well as the List. C*HA*OS, besides
being an organization and a list, also hosts conferences, and plans both
publishing, sponsorship of research, teaching, and more conferences in the
future, open to all.

Moderation on this List is minimal, concerned only with making sure that
basic Internet rules are upheld. Beyond that, we expect the List to be
self-correcting as we handle the occasional communication problem with
diplomacy, grace, and humour.

We feel that astrology is a profound tool for enriching our understanding of
ourselves, our lives, and the KOSMOS in which we live. Therefore we consider
any topic which enriches our understanding and use of astrology to be of
value. Political issues, psychology, history, philosophical questions, the
arts, latest discoveries in the sciences as they impinge on and reflect
astrology and astrological cycles, are all welcome in this context.

We embrace all branches and topics in astrology, from the Sidereal and
Tropical zodiacs, to Chinese astrology, to Uranian, Traditional, Horary,
Vedic, Mundane, and more recent and experimental techniques and approaches
such as those of Gauquelin. We suggest only that you present sound material
which you are prepared to defend against others who might disagree, even
disagree strongly, with your use of a particular theoretical construct.
Hopefully such challenges will be taken in good collegial spirit and lead to
more insight for all.
Cross postings from other Lists will be acceptable, as long as they are
pertinent and are presented with the author's permission where necessary.
Please no plagiarism.

We would hope that discussions would be respectful, but realise that
sometimes a little disrespect is needed to puncture hot air balloons. We
encourage challenges and questions and scholarly debate. We consider
ourselves privileged to have an entire community of astrologers, as well as

professionals from other fields with either expertise or interest in
astrology, whose contributions and feedback can sharpen and enhance our
thinking and broaden and deepen our knowledge as we share our ideas and
learn from each other.

We encourage a sense of humour, especially when someone challenges or
destroys a pet theory! The laughter of the god(desse)s can often clear the
air. The dynamics of List discussions are still fairly new to most of us.
Because we are unable to see each other's body language, or to hear the tone
of each other's voices, people who may be quite gentle souls sometimes come
across more strongly than in person. We tend to project our own
expectations onto others, especially when we can't see or hear them. Please
take this into account, and remember that enthusiasm, excitement, and
intensity tend to be magnified in this form of communication and sometimes
misinterpreted. Consider that the people on the CHAO*S List can become
valued professional associates and friends, and so let's respond to each
other with that in mind.

We would like you to introduce yourself to the other List members. We would
be interested in your astrological and/or other professional background and
interests, and anything else you might like to share, such as information
about astrological practices from your area of the world.

Again, Welcome!

Signed,

  Julienne Mullette <zjulienne@worldnet.att.net>
  Kris Shapar <kshapar@nicom.com>

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 01:41:38 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Rob Carlson <rcarls2@GL.UMBC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <35070f20.8698806@mail.xtra.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Walter Logeman wrote:

> JoAnne ... my grief is that Psyber-L  ... more accurately
> Psybernet is not what I dreamt it to be!  My acceptance of that
> is close, and can feel a joy, and an enthusiasm for what it *is*.
> Do you have something like that going on here?

Walter,

If you wanted something that would be exactly as you intended and designed
for the world to see, you should have put up a web page.

You can mold a list exactly to your preferences right up to the moment
that the second user subscribes.  Then the only two things you can
possibly have any control over is member removal and the "big red switch"
of simply turning off the list.

I'm glad you accept it, though.  Micromanager list-owners are doomed to
constant frustration-- just like a gardener who plants a seed and
wants to have every bud appear according to their preconceptions.

Rob

--
Rob Carlson | KC2AEI/3 | rcarls2@umbc.edu | http://umbc.edu/~rcarls2
If you plan for disaster, disaster is just another part of the plan.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:43:35 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         meeseo Paik <ingul@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Comes The Dawn
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Robert

Yesterday, I received one e-mail.
It was impressive.
so I send it to you.

**********************************************
**********************************************

 "Plant Your Own Garden, Decorate Your Own Soul"

I would like to present a poem, entitled "Comes The Dawn" by Virginia
Shopstall, for this week's inspiration. I have come across this poem
time and time again, and each time I read it I learn more about
myself, life, emotions, and the future. Because of the strength in its
meaning,...I hope you find it inspiring as well.....…
After awhile you learn
the subtle difference between
holding a hand and chaining a soul
and you learn that love doesn't mean possession
and company doesn't mean security.
And you begin to learn that kisses aren't contracts
and presents aren't promises and you begin to accept
your defeats with your head up and your eyes ahead
with the grace of an adult not the grief of a child.
And you learn to build your roads today
because tomorrow's ground is too uncertain for plans
and futures have ways of falling down in mid-flight.
After awhile you learn that even sunshine
burns if you get too much so you plant your
own garden and decorate your own soul
instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
And you learn that you really can endure
that you really are strong
and you really do have worth
and you learn
and you learn...
......................
*****************************************
*****************************************

Have a nice journey...

Meeseo..
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:55:48 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cory Jones <xcjones@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Goodbye for now

Dear Robert, Walter, Susan Swan, JoAnne, Anita, Meeseo, and other
Psyber-L Members,

I've truly enjoyed our conversations via e-mail.  Unfortunately,  I find
that I don't have the time to attend to your messages as deeply as I
should.  I never realized that an e-mail list could be so utterly immense
in information.  You all made interesting bservations while I was
reading--thank you for your wisdom.  Perhaps I'll be able to join again
some day when I am not so busy.

Best regards to all,

Mr. Cory Jones

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 07:38:59 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SGI.3.96.980315013245.23608B-100000@umbc10.umbc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Rob,

> If you wanted something that would be exactly as you intended and designed
> for the world to see, you should have put up a web page.

I have a web page, as well, and the "users" there could also submit emails
on how I might change it!  They do actually, some of it useful some not.

> You can mold a list exactly to your preferences right up to the moment
> that the second user subscribes.  Then the only two things you can
> possibly have any control over is member removal and the "big red switch"
> of simply turning off the list.

I have control of all the options including the ones you mention.  This is
them:

* Psybernet Mailing List
* Subscription= Open,Confirm             Send= Private
* Confidential= No                       Validate= Yes,Confirm
* Limits= Sub(75)      Default-Options= REPRO,NOACK,SUBJecthdr
* Subject-Tag= P
* Notebook=Yes,E:\FTP\LISTS\PSYBER-L,Monthly,Public
* Reply-to= List, Ignore
* Renewal= 4-Monthly,Delay(14)
*
* Owner= walter@psybernet.co.nz
* Owner= Quiet:
* Owner= walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
*
* Experiential exploration of the psyche in cyberspace.
* Topics:  Leadership skills in email lists, list dynamics,
* Depth psychology on the Internet. Professional services
* on the Internet.
*

Is that what you were thinking I retained control over?  Of course the
rest, the content, remains as you say somewhat like a garden and in the
hands of the . . . destiny of the list.

But not quite, because the name of the list, the associated web pages, and
other publicity, description, welcome file and I guess the nature of the
presence of the listowner all influence the list constantly.

> I'm glad you accept it, though.  Micromanager list-owners are doomed to
> constant frustration-- just like a gardener who plants a seed and
> wants to have every bud appear according to their preconceptions.

What do you mean by micromanager there?

I enjoy the list enormously with its ebbs and flows and I particularly love
the way I feel connected with a group of people, some very committed and
honest.  I enjoy its beauty at times, which i see in strange places, such
as the way grief has shone through at different levels here.

The thing I have now come to accept is the diversity in focus and purpose.
I expected diversity of style, character,  life journeys and discussion
that we bring and diversity as people but similarity in the interested in:

* Experiential exploration of the psyche in cyberspace.
* Topics:  Leadership skills in email lists, list dynamics,
* Depth psychology on the Internet. Professional services
* on the Internet.

Which is the very short description that is embedded in the software.

More on this in my response to Susan, which may take a day or two.


Good to see you here Rob.


Walter
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 08:18:37 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      More at the Core
In-Reply-To:  <3508B317.CF748F5B@easynet.on.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

I wanted to head for this central / peripheral nook to mention some of the
things central to me at the moment.  We had Kate's 40th last night.  Big
party.  All her friends and many relations from all over the country!
Quite something.  We have worked hard at getting the house ready, and the
food and so on, and it looked great, a lot of work in the last couple of
weeks as well as over many years bearing fruition.  We had a "formal" part
of the evening, with the cake, and a few words from people and we announced
that we are getting married later this year.  It occurred to Kate & i
earlier in the day that it had to be included, so far it has just been
slipping out here (literally) and there.  Unexpectedly Kate's mother
stepped forth with an engagement ring that belonged to her grandmother.
She ceremoniously gave it to me.  I was very moved and  promptly put on
Kate's finger (once i found the right one).  Quite a moment.

Today was spent sleeping in and cleaning up, but more than that, as we
messages of congratulation coming in occasionally, and an offer from Kate's
uncle that he would be willing to "give her away" if asked.  Also some
lighthearted chat about the Conjugal Relations Act being under review, &
might need checking, and which of the gods we might call on for the
spiritual aspects, his, hers or theirs.

I am very happy!


Walter

___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 07:05:38 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: More at the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter --

Congratulations!  I'm glad you and Kate are celebrating your lives together by
getting married.  To have the opportunity to love another in this committed way
is truly one of life's greater gifts.  All the best.

...Jim

PS. Happy 40th to Kate.  Laurie has hers in a couple of weeks too.  Milestones!

Walter Logeman wrote:

> All,
>
> I wanted to head for this central / peripheral nook to mention some of the
> things central to me at the moment.  We had Kate's 40th last night.  Big
> party.  All her friends and many relations from all over the country!
> Quite something.  We have worked hard at getting the house ready, and the
> food and so on, and it looked great, a lot of work in the last couple of
> weeks as well as over many years bearing fruition.  We had a "formal" part
> of the evening, with the cake, and a few words from people and we announced
> that we are getting married later this year.  It occurred to Kate & i
> earlier in the day that it had to be included, so far it has just been
> slipping out here (literally) and there.  Unexpectedly Kate's mother
> stepped forth with an engagement ring that belonged to her grandmother.
> She ceremoniously gave it to me.  I was very moved and  promptly put on
> Kate's finger (once i found the right one).  Quite a moment.
>
> Today was spent sleeping in and cleaning up, but more than that, as we
> messages of congratulation coming in occasionally, and an offer from Kate's
> uncle that he would be willing to "give her away" if asked.  Also some
> lighthearted chat about the Conjugal Relations Act being under review, &
> might need checking, and which of the gods we might call on for the
> spiritual aspects, his, hers or theirs.
>
> I am very happy!
>
> Walter
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:27:15 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: More at the Core
In-Reply-To:  <350BC412.97B06FCA@easynet.on.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jim

> Congratulations!  I'm glad you and Kate are celebrating your lives together by
> getting married.  To have the opportunity to love another in this committed way
> is truly one of life's greater gifts.  All the best.
>
> ...Jim
>
> PS. Happy 40th to Kate.  Laurie has hers in a couple of weeks too.  Milestones!

Thanks Jim.  I'll pass that on!  Strange thing to do in some ways as she is
quite removed from psyberspace ... into horses!  Kate has a good
understanding about all of this though as she listens well to my ramblings
in real time.



Walter
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:31:58 +0200
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter and Susan,


When I last autumn visited  on the island of Rhode, there was a cyber-cafe
called "Minotaur's  cave". I  thought: what a  telling name for  an
Internet-cafe!
    Now  in reading with great interest your discussion  on anger and
psyber-space, it occurred to my mind, that cyberspace and, Psyber-space as a
part of it, is like the  Labyrinth of  Crete. In  the core of  the Labyrinth
there lived a monster called Minotaur
    The  Labyrinth was constructed  by  Daedalos, the  fabulous ancient
architect and craftsman. Maybe he couldn't foresee viciousness of the
monster.  But as an architect  he knew the Labyrinth, and  could  help
Ardiane. He gave her the precious ball of thread, which  enabled  her lover
Theseus to find  his way out of the Labyrinth.
     To my mind  the Labyrinth is a good metaphor  for  psyber-space. It has
been constructed  among other things for  "experiential exploration of the
psyche in cyberspace" and  "depth psychology on the Internet".  This kind of
exploration  may  touch on  emotionally  laden  issues and deep meanings,
and often is anxiety  provoking. It may  wake up  Minotaur living  in the
core of  Psyberspace,  and  also in  my  and  your  psyche. Hence anger and
attacks, even abuse occurring  at times on the list.  Its energy  and
dynamics are so unforeseen.  You can never tell , what mail causes  Minotaur
in me or  you to  attack.
    Perhaps this space is not  for  nervies nor children , but for the brave
Minotaur tamers.  Sometimes someone  may feel lost in the Labyrinth, and  is
waiting  for  Walter, the  Daedalos, to tame the Bull, or at least, that he
will throw the helping Adriane's thread. In that way I interpreted  Susan's
words on the listowner's  role. Maybe I'm  wrong.

Best wishes to you
Anita

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:41:23 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Peter Addenbrooke <peter.addenbrooke@MCMAIL.COM>
Subject:      destructive message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

from: peter.addenbrooke@mcmail.com
Sunday 15th March 1998 - 1630 - local time -

I have receved a great many messages in fact too many to read.

However one was very destructive. It said it didn't seem to be a message
and on the screen appeared blank. The screen message offered the
opportunity to try to read it as a message. This I did. All my previous
saved mail was erased, some thirty messages. It is all unrecoverable. So
much for e-mail and computers with their tricks and wiles.

I like the poetry but not the unkown and highly destructive message!

unsubscribe is what I want to do.

Peter Addenbrooke

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:05:49 +0000
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: destructive message
In-Reply-To:  <350C7533.1DF5@mcmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Peter,

It is very very difficult to send a virus via email that would destoy let
alone target Eudora or any other email programme. In fact, unless you are
very very very skilled, the only way to do it is via an attatchment, and
that has to be opened anyway and run anyway. Do NOT execute or run ANY file
attachments to any e-mail messages unless you know who sent it and what was
sent, or you inspect the file with one or more antivirus agents is the
golden rule.

Aside from that, it's not in the realms of possibility that anything on
Psyber L could wipe your email. You stand a chance of recovering it if you
look in your mailbox.out files and mailbox.in files to see if anything has
survived.

What you might have is a virus, and that is wiping various stuff off your
pc by degrees, so I'd run a virus checker like thunderbyte or mcAffey to
rule out that possibility, while you still have any info left on your
harddrive.

I had a virus once, and if I ever catch up with the creator I will string
him up by his testicles, the golden rules are, never accept downloads etc
from people you don't know, never run email attatchments from people you
don't know, never get downloads from suspicious looking sites on the web,
and you should be fine. I only got my virus because I was trying to rip off
some software and the programmer had built a nice surprise into it for
those who were foolish enough to try to use a phony registration no.

Dolores.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:11:15 -0800
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Peter Addenbrooke <peter.addenbrooke@MCMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: destructive message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dolores wrote:
>
> Dear Peter,
>
> It is very very difficult to send a virus via email that would destoy let
> alone target Eudora or any other email programme. In fact, unless you are
> very very very skilled, the only way to do it is via an attatchment, and
> that has to be opened anyway and run anyway. Do NOT execute or run ANY file
> attachments to any e-mail messages unless you know who sent it and what was
> sent, or you inspect the file with one or more antivirus agents is the
> golden rule.
>
> Aside from that, it's not in the realms of possibility that anything on
> Psyber L could wipe your email. You stand a chance of recovering it if you
> look in your mailbox.out files and mailbox.in files to see if anything has
> survived.
>
> What you might have is a virus, and that is wiping various stuff off your
> pc by degrees, so I'd run a virus checker like thunderbyte or mcAffey to
> rule out that possibility, while you still have any info left on your
> harddrive.
>
> I had a virus once, and if I ever catch up with the creator I will string
> him up by his testicles, the golden rules are, never accept downloads etc
> from people you don't know, never run email attatchments from people you
> don't know, never get downloads from suspicious looking sites on the web,
> and you should be fine. I only got my virus because I was trying to rip off
> some software and the programmer had built a nice surprise into it for
> those who were foolish enough to try to use a phony registration no.
>
> Dolores.
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

I have shared my experience of what happened when I tried to read a
message sent via the psyber-l list. It has never happened before with
any other message. I have run f-prot and will certainly do so again. But
have never yet found a virus. peter addenbrooke.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:29:28 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: destructive message
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Peter, At 05:11 PM 3/15/98 -0800, you wrote:

>I have shared my experience of what happened when I tried to read a
>message sent via the psyber-l list. It has never happened before with
>any other message. I have run f-prot and will certainly do so again. But
>have never yet found a virus. peter addenbrooke.

It could be coincidence.  It could be that that particular message was the
straw that broke your news reader's back, if you have many messages.  But
Anita is correct, reading an email without launching an attachment is not
going to damage your computer unless there's something already wrong.

-JoAnne, computer professional and internet veteran

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:36:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: destructive message
Comments: cc: peter.addenbrooke@mcmail.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:41 PM 3/15/98 -0800, you wrote:
>from: peter.addenbrooke@mcmail.com
>Sunday 15th March 1998 - 1630 - local time -
>
>I have receved a great many messages in fact too many to read.
>
>However one was very destructive. It said it didn't seem to be a message
>and on the screen appeared blank. The screen message offered the
>opportunity to try to read it as a message. This I did. All my previous
>saved mail was erased, some thirty messages. It is all unrecoverable. So
>much for e-mail and computers with their tricks and wiles.

Aha, now I know what it is.  When you are offered the opportunity to "read
it as a message" as you say, this is your computer asking you if you want it
to open the attached program and run it.  If you don't know the sender,
DON'T OPEN AN ATTACHED FILE!

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:31:46 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Tim <tigu@GTE.NET>
Subject:      Re: destructive message
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        Dolores,

>I had a virus once, and if I ever catch up with the creator I will string
>him up by his testicles,

        Hmmm.....guess its only men that create viruses huh?


                        Tim

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 14:54:38 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: destructive message
In-Reply-To:  <199803151931.NAA12050@smtp2.mailsrvcs.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:31 PM 3/15/98 -0600, Tim wrote:
>        Dolores,
>
>>I had a virus once, and if I ever catch up with the creator I will string
>>him up by his testicles,
>
>        Hmmm.....guess its only men that create viruses huh?
>
>
>                        Tim

Well, I can't wait to hear what Dolores is going to use to string up
any guilty women? :)

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:54:24 +0000
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: destructive message
In-Reply-To:  <199803151931.NAA12050@smtp2.mailsrvcs.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Tim

Hmmm.....guess its only men that create viruses huh?

Actually no, only Geeky Teenagers, that subscribe to 2600 and spend the
rest of the day on Irc hanging on #hack or #warez.

Dolores

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 23:13:15 +0000
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: dest.message - females/Julienne.
In-Reply-To:  <Version.32.19980315145338.00ff39e0@postoffice.att.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Julienne..

Their nipples?
Actually I have in all my time as a semi computer nerd, NEVER met a female
that programmed viri or even requested one from me. I would also say that
the percentage of women to men on hacking/warez channels is roughly 3%. The
average age of hackers etc is around 15-20. The majority of hackers in
their 30's tend to be from the old school, and despise the wannabees. The
women/females that do hack etc tend to be as good or better than the
men..but generally, I've never met one that wanted to inflict a virus on
anybody. Seems to me to be a bit of a male geek rite of passage.

I enclose something sent to me by a friend recently..I think it about sums
up what I have experienced re the male attitude to females with a penchant
for geekdom,

"As to your computer problems, wait until you can contact me.  Most
computer solutions are simple, and quite elegant at that, but the
denizens of Geekdom seldom share the secrets with outsiders, much less
women.  And sensual women don't stand any chance at all.  Overt
sexuality motivates geeks to run for the nearest exit.  Remember that
the next time you visit #windows95. And to test the theory, type "blow
job", and you'll either be kicked or you'll see the biggest network
split in IRC history".

I'm itching to try it by the way. Although it has to be said, in complete
contrast to the above, I have a male friend that assumes a female nick
whenever he goes on #win95 etc. If he goes as a male, everybody ignores
him, if he changes his nick to Candy or something similar, they start
dcc'ing him by the droves offering help and gratuitous registration
numbers. Hmm..maybe he isn't overtly sexual enough, I'll ask him to change
his nick to Nympho next time, and see how far he gets.

Dolores.

While I'm droning on, I can always spot a male in disguise on irc, because
they are the ones that tend to have nicks like HotPussy or Wet4You. It's a
dead giveaway..well that and they are usually too dense to change their
real names in their IP addys etc. I have also in my many wasted years
trawling the irc, only met one woman who ever pretended to be a
man..whereas I have met many men, pretending to be women. Not sure what
deeper psychological meaning that has, probably only that it's easier to
get spoken to/laid/ on irc if your female, due to the ratio of men to women
on there and if your a ragingly horny 15 year old, I guess any port in a storm.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Mar 1998 19:16:22 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: dest.message - females/Dolores?
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.2.32.19980315231315.006b1820@easynet.co.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:13 PM 3/15/98 +0000, Dolores wrote:
>Dear Julienne..
>
>Their nipples?

Well, that would be no fun,  but it's better than _some_ suggestions you
might have made. :)

>Actually I have in all my time as a semi computer nerd, NEVER met a female
>that programmed viri or even requested one from me. I would also say that
>the percentage of women to men on hacking/warez channels is roughly 3%. The
>average age of hackers etc is around 15-20. The majority of hackers in
>their 30's tend to be from the old school, and despise the wannabees. The
>women/females that do hack etc tend to be as good or better than the
>men..but generally, I've never met one that wanted to inflict a virus on
>anybody. Seems to me to be a bit of a male geek rite of passage.

>While I'm droning on, I can always spot a male in disguise on irc, because
>they are the ones that tend to have nicks like HotPussy or Wet4You. It's a
>dead giveaway..well that and they are usually too dense to change their
>real names in their IP addys etc. I have also in my many wasted years
>trawling the irc, only met one woman who ever pretended to be a
>man..whereas I have met many men, pretending to be women. Not sure what
>deeper psychological meaning that has, probably only that it's easier to
>get spoken to/laid/ on irc if your female, due to the ratio of men to women
>on there and if your a ragingly horny 15 year old, I guess any port in a
storm.

Dolores, when I was about 15, at a high school graduation party, I'll never
forget
a senior male (very intellectual - I thought then...:) holding court and
pooh-poohing the theory of
penis envy. Instead, he said, the main problem was male envy of female
wombs. Wow!
What a thing to hear at that age. Despite the myth, I have never had any
desire for a penis,
or to be a man. I love being a man. Not that there's anything wrong with
penises, or men,
per se...it's just that I'm happy as I am. :)

We usually only attack what threatens or scares us. I think men are very
afraid
of women - not because of anything in particular we do
to hurt them, but because they need us so much, and feel so vulnerable. The
weaker always feels most vulnerable, but what makes men vulnerable is
their need to maintain power in both their work and relationships. When
you put yourself in the position of being a bully, or excluding others,
then you
are always vulnerable to attack and to being toppled. And you almost have
to hate those whom you feel are out to topple you - so men hate each other
and women. Who's left?

And of course I don't mean _all_ men. This is just a generalization of
unconscious collective behaviour.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just all see each other as human beings
sharing the human experience, and equally dependent on each other?

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:30:28 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Anita--I love the notion of seeing this space as a Labyrinth. It reminds
me of some of the novels by Robert Holdstock which take a Jungian
labyrinthian  approach to exploring the psyche (Mythago Wood and
Lavondyss are the two books I think).


>     Now  in reading with great interest your discussion  on anger and
> psyber-space, it occurred to my mind, that cyberspace and,
> Psyber-space as a
> part of it, is like the  Labyrinth of  Crete. In  the core of  the
> Labyrinth
> there lived a monster called Minotaur
>     The  Labyrinth was constructed  by  Daedalos, the  fabulous
> ancient
> architect and craftsman. Maybe he couldn't foresee viciousness of the
> monster.  But as an architect  he knew the Labyrinth, and  could  help
> Ardiane. He gave her the precious ball of thread, which  enabled  her
> lover
> Theseus to find  his way out of the Labyrinth.
>      To my mind  the Labyrinth is a good metaphor  for  psyber-space.
> It has
> been constructed  among other things for  "experiential exploration of
> the
> psyche in cyberspace" and  "depth psychology on the Internet".  This
> kind of
> exploration  may  touch on  emotionally  laden  issues and deep
> meanings,
> and often is anxiety  provoking. It may  wake up  Minotaur living  in
> the
> core of  Psyberspace,  and  also in  my  and  your  psyche. Hence
> anger and
> attacks, even abuse occurring  at times on the list.  Its energy  and
> dynamics are so unforeseen.  You can never tell , what mail causes
> Minotaur
> in me or  you to  attack.
>     Perhaps this space is not  for  nervies nor children , but for the
> brave
> Minotaur tamers.  Sometimes someone  may feel lost in the Labyrinth,
> and  is
> waiting  for  Walter, the  Daedalos, to tame the Bull, or at least,
> that he
> will throw the helping Adriane's thread. In that way I interpreted
> Susan's
> words on the listowner's  role. Maybe I'm  wrong.
>

I'm not sure that I see Walter as having the role of taming the bull,
but more that I see he has a role not to enrage the bull further or
perhaps more precisely not to encourage those wandering the labyrinth to
eat up one another. I think as a group we do pretty well at offering
Ariadne's ball of yarn to one another and don't now see that as
something which should come exclusively from Walter (although perhaps
maybe I did see him that way early on in my participation in this list).
An interesting notion which strikes me here is that of Walter as
Daedalus--in some ways he is in that role as architect, but I think
there is a tendency for us to do more reworking of the architecture,
along the lines of what Alexander et al. talk about in _A Timeless Way
of Building_ and _A Pattern Book_.  Alexander and his colleagues try to
identify the universal patterns of architecture, patterns which
encourage community and allow for healthy development of self within the
physical and community structures within which we live. Nothing in these
works carries with it a feel for inviting destructiveness --and indeed
the structures would seem to invite the opposite, building in ways which
bring us together rather than taking us apart or taking others apart.

The structure of the labyrinth is indeed one which invites brave
Minotaur tamers, but it also currently invites others to step into the
role of the minotaur as bully (rather than bull), something which I do
not believe is any better for the growth of psyche than it was for the
growth of the young maids and lads who were sacrificed to the Minotaur.
And while the Minotaur may be within us all, this is not reason to let
him (as animus perhaps?) run wild destroying both labyrinth and
explorers--thus we may not know what mail will bring out the minotaur
inside, but one or two roars would seem to be sufficient to recognize it
and name it so that it can then be addressed. A continual and habitual
roaring at and attacking of others denies the rising of the Minotaur in
one's self and certainly does not show openness to growth at having
found such a manifestation of self inside--which would seem to deny the
purposes for which one is on the list.
                                Susan

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:12:22 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <350998FE.ADAF041B@sunbird.usd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Susan

Responding to your post of: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:37:18 -0600

First on the aside re quoting.  I like it, and it does not give me a
feeling of tit for tat per se, though it can do.  I like it because it
feels conversational.  Also it helps me to listen and cover the points.
The art of it is worth looking at.  There is such a thing as excessive
quoting, an oft mentioned internet no no, there is even software which will
reject posts on that basis.  Too many generations of reply can get too
messy, and require clear naming of who said what.  Not word wrapping lines
properly and having long and short ones also creates unpleasant looking
emails.  The aesthetics of a post *counts*.  The interesting thing is that
even these foibles in posts and the ugliness of some is an expression of
the personality of the poster, and thus interesting in its own way.  I
will, just for the sake experimentation write this post without quoting
yours.  I won't even cheat and simply delete your words afterwards.  Rather
i will let it come through from memory (with perhaps an occasional
glimpse!)

My recent comment on the use of anger was that I could see how the
annoyance, which is a mild anger, that Jim felt with Robert, led to a
closer connection between them.  On this occasion I mentioned the value of
anger, without calling for its clean expression, and the need for
responsible expression of anger.  True.  Jim's original question had a
element of passive aggressiveness in my opinion.  Should I mention it?  I
don't think so.  That would get me into the diagnostician mode.  I don't
want that.  It seemed to me that Jim was rather rude in response to
Robert's politeness.  As if one excess was met by another.  I don't think
that I am relishing in one person abusing another when I like the process.
I made sure the rather curt post from Jim was noticed, by re posting it.  I
did that as a *participant* ... I was uncomfortable with the silence ...
where there had been a challenge of some sort, and then it was totally
ignored for a while, and then Robert and i were talking of what we heard in
the silence ...  Then it led to this "getting to the core " thread ... I've
said all this?

I like clean language; I statements, owning of projection, feelings and
thoughts not confused, no personal attacks or threats, no generalisations
associated with individuals ... but who can do that?  Is it natural? Is it
even really useful?   Anita said recently that the men here without the
women were not soulful.  A generalisation took that quite personally.  One
of the reasons I feel sensitive about writing detailed posts about
listowning ethics, is that I make such a judgment on my own writing.  Ah,
so that is it.  If i felt better about my own soulfulness, then i might
feel ok about being more critical of the way the juice is bought in here.
Might be good learning in this for me!  Anita's generalisation might have
passed me by if I did not have that inner parallel process.  In a way she
alerts me to it.  It hurts, but it is ok.  I wouldn't want her to not
generalise ...

None of my comments on anger were *in my mind* to anything JoAnne has said.
I think as it was concurrent with her "vicious bitch" posts i can see how
you thought that.  That you thought it is also information for you about
you, an you make something of that?  Also, of course, can I learn something
from that?  Do I create the "hooks" for your "eyes"?  I think so!  It is
occurring to me just now.  I think I go a little over the top on valuing
anger when I feel like someone is trying to shut it up and have a *false
niceness*  I hate that.  I grew up in a household which could cover up not
only anger but huge mountains of hate and rage!  I mean cover it up so none
of us knew it was there.  I unearthed it in psychotherapy, for my own
health.  So we are a pair!  Our families of origin lead to a perfect match!
It is a wonder we are not married <grin>.  (I am referring to the theory
that we choose partners to sort out our unresolved stuff!)

I have not joined in on dialogue with you and Joanne, nor have i jumped
into the thread on projection too much.  I have followed it with interest
but not felt the *desire* to comment.  Is that passivity on my part?  I
don't think so.  I posted the reference to HooN's post on the topic of
projection, which it seemed to me was seminal reading, one of those posts
that *changed my views* on the matter.  I started another post, and then
thought, again, that Hoon's contributions said all I wanted to say and lots
more.  I think that the exchange between you two has enormous potential to
lead to you learning something about your selves, but that sounds
patronising ... I simply have not found a way into it.  I think there is
some similarity with the process between Jim and Robert -- it might have
been done in a kinder way, with less misunderstanding, and less attack but
better that it is done, than not done.

I began the list as a facilitator, and now am a list owner.  I also added
the words on ad hominem attacks to the welcome file and so on.  It was done
with extensive posting here.  Some, but not as much discussion as I wanted.
I got some negative feed back on raising these matters ... I felt sensitive
about doing so much cognitive writing.  Very, and posted all that up too.
Never the less, I hoped that the discussion *would* ensue, and here it is!
The wonders of asynchronous communication.  Facilitator or not I am against
abuse.  Strongly i think, and i want this to be a place that is as free
from it as we can make it.  How can it be best done?

Do you know the songs of Dory Previn?  70's I think.  There is one about
two of her lovers, the poet and the truck driver.  One makes love and the
other fucks. The point she makes is that the earthiness of the truck driver
wins out over the betrayal by the poet.  My phono player is dead, or i'd
get the words out.  What i want to say is that the anger (even badly
expressed) is often in response to something which is in another way
abusive, though it might not be *linguistically* offensive.  I hope that we
can attend to all forms of abuse, and find some acceptance as others
misread us for their ghosts!  Even understand that they might not be ready
to have that named!

I am glad you have got my point that any one of us can attend to situations
we find abusive.  I understand that in my role of Listowner people might
look to me ... especially as we have had the history of me promoting myself
as facilitator.

BTW, I think ther is a role for a facilitator in certain types of lists,
and that it is distinct from the listowning role.

I loved Anita's response to you on psyberspace as labyrinth, and yours to
her, and I think I will continue this reply in another post, to include
that discussion.

I hope this continues the dialogue in a way that is ok with you ... I find
it rewarding.


Walter


___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:13:13 -1
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     Authenticated sender is <wpa00958@mail.web4you.dk>
From:         Bent Bogedal Christoffersen <wpa00958@ERIS.WEB4YOU.DK>
Subject:      Re: dest.message - females/Dolores?
In-Reply-To:  <19980316002256.AAA17380@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

>
> Wouldn't it be nice if we could just all see each other as human beings
> sharing the human experience, and equally dependent on each other?
>
> Julienne
>

 NO !!!
 Then we will miss all the fun ,all the good gender issuses ,that
makes the hole Psyber -L shake . And then nobody
would like to sing about " great balls on fire ".
Bent Bogedal Christoffersen
http://www.cybernet.dk/users/bbc

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:36:14 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Tim <tigu@GTE.NET>
Subject:      Re: dest.message - females/Dolores?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        Julienne,

At 11:13 PM 3/16/98 -1, you wrote:
>>
>> Wouldn't it be nice if we could just all see each other as human beings
>> sharing the human experience, and equally dependent on each other?
>>

             I think maybe we DO see each other as humans and dependent on
each other....scares the hell out of us..:)  So we get to try to stop
running...over...and over....and over.   Maybe a part of us sees the truth
clearly.....and quietly works towards allowing the rest of us to become aware.


                        Tim

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Mar 1998 02:34:05 +0000
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Dolores <azure@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Julienne/The Hacker Barbie.
In-Reply-To:  <199803162336.RAA26396@smtp1.mailsrvcs.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Julienne, and all
I couldn't resist this, bearing in mind the topic a day or so ago.....My
three year old is worryingly addicted to Barbie...I cringe when forced to
read her the *Barbie* magazine which she invariably picks over tales of
Peter Rabbit and Thomas the Tank Engine when given the choice.

The Hacker Barbie.
(LA, California) Mattel announces their new line of Barbie products, the
Hacker Barbie. These new dolls will be released next
month. The aim of these dolls is to revert the stereotype that women are
numerophobic, computer-illiterate, and academically
challenged.

This new line of Barbie dolls comes equipped with Barbie's very own
X-terminal and UNIX documentation as well as ORA's "In a
Nutshell" series. The Barbie is robed in a dirty button-up shirt and a pair
of worn-out jeans with Casio all-purpose watches and thick
glasses that can set ants on fire. Pocket protectors and HP calculators
optional. The new Barbie has the incredible ability to stare
at the screen without blinking her eyes and to go without eating or
drinking for 12 hours straight. Her vocabulary mainly consists of
technical terms such as IP address, TCP/IP, kernel, NP-complete, and Alpha
AXP's.

"We are very excited about this product," said John Olson, Marketing
Executive, "and we hope that the Hacker Barbie will offset the
damage incurred by the mathophobic Barbie." A year ago, Mattel released
Barbie dolls that say, "Math is hard," with condescending
companion Ken. The Hacker Barbie's Ken is an incompetent consultant who
frequently asks Barbie for help.

The leading feminists are equally excited about this new line of Barbie
dolls. Naomi Wolf says, "I believe that these new dolls will
finally terminate the notion that women are inherently inferior when it
comes to mathematics and the sciences. However, I feel that
Ken's hierarchical superiority would simply reinforce the patriarchy and
oppress the masses." Mattel made no comment.

Parents, however, are worried that they would become technologically behind
by comparison to the children when the Hacker Barbie
comes out. "My daughter Jenny plays with the prototype Hacker Barbie over
yonder for two days," says Mrs. Mary Carlson of
Oxford, Mississippi, "and as y'all know, she now pays my credit card bill.
Ain't got no idea how she duz it, but she surely duz it. I
jus don't wanna be looked upon as a dumb mama." Mattel will be offering
free training courses for those who purchase the Hacker
Barbie.

The future Hacker Barbie will include several variations to deal with the
complex aspects of Barbie. Hacker Barbie Goes to Jail will
teach computer ethics to youngsters, while BARB1E R1TES L1KE B1FF!!! will
serve as an introduction to expository writing.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:36:24 -0600
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Susan Swan <sswan@SUNBIRD.USD.EDU>
Organization: University of South Dakota
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter--just a quick note to you. I appreciate your posting (and your
experiment with wholistic response!). It may be a day or so before I get
a well-formed reply back--Spring Break is over, I've a stack of papers
which must be critiqued and back on Tuesday, and have class until 10:00
pm tomorrow (fortunately it is a cool class: Critical Studies in Popular
Culture--it is fun to have a class with a legitmate excuse to go to the
movies. I think we may go see _Amistad_ tomorrow since it is in town.)
                                Susan

Oh--and could you please delete the sunflowr address?  Our system seems
to have a mind of its own these days and everything I have is now
sunbird (it seems to fit with the Swan part of me better).

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:48:29 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core
In-Reply-To:  <350ef63b.38367128@smtp.xtra.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Susan, Anita,

On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:30:28 -0600, Susan wrote:

I like the post I am responding to as it has Anita's delightful
mythical metaphor for psyberspace as well Susan's continuation of
the architecture idea with reference to Alexander's Pattern
language.  Certainly a soulful way to talk about the psyche in
cyberspace, and building on-line environments.

That the net is a labyrinth is so true.  That it mirrors the
psyche is so true.  It is even *now* as if we have found our way
through some tight and complex tunnels to this particular
illuminated level of the labyrinth.  We have almost been here
before, but missed the richness of this cavern.  This Daedalos,
why did he build the labyrinth?  it was to hide the grotesque
half bull half human child of some gods?  What happened to the
Bull?  I want to read this up, but it is enough just to ask the
questions and reflect on how the myth might match my history and
the history of Psyber-L.

My computer crashed recently and i had to reinstall Windows, for
hours we were in the darkness of DOS with no mouse, needing to
install an older version of DOS before we could reach the next
level.  Then a moment of illumination while we dug an old version
of Xtree Gold out of the archives, and so on until all became
clear again.  (Hint, never loose your Windows registration
number!)  That was  labyrinth experience that mirrored the
psyche, and a microcosm of the net.

I found it hard to hear, Susan, that you think I encourage people
to eat each other in the labyrinth.  At that moment i think we
face Minotaur the monster.  He is not somewhere deeper than that
at the core, that is the core, and there he is.  This is one of
those first growls of the beast, and it is named.

Where to from here?  What do we do with the beast?  How do we get
out of here, where is the ball of yarn. Perhaps to work out what
is a hook and eye here we need to follow the threads very
carefully?

Anita wrote:
> > In  the core of  the Labyrinth there lived a monster called Minotaur

At the core is the monster, but at the core is also the heart,
core means heart.  Can we get to the core and not have to fight a
monster?

Susan, you think Anita is encouraging abuse in what follows?  I
think Anita expresses the place of anger, and even abuse, here
very clearly ... as part of the process, not condoned, not
encouraged, but integral to it, inevitable ...

> > This kind of exploration  may  touch on  emotionally  laden
> > meanings, issues and deep and often is anxiety  provoking. It may
> > wake up  Minotaur living  in the core of  Psyberspace,  and  also
> > in  my  and  your  psyche. Hence anger and attacks, even abuse
> > occurring  at times on the list.  Its energy  and dynamics
> > are so unforeseen.  You can never tell , what mail causes
> > Minotaur in me or  you to  attack.

> I think as a group we do pretty well at offering
> Ariadne's ball of yarn to one another and don't now see that as
> something which should come exclusively from Walter (although perhaps
> maybe I did see him that way early on in my participation in this list).

I think I have moved myself out of that position and contributed
to the confusion in my experimentation with *participant /
facilitator".

I remain in the role of architect ...
> An interesting notion which strikes me here is that of Walter as
> Daedalus--in some ways he is in that role as architect, but I think
> there is a tendency for us to do more reworking of the architecture,
> along the lines of what Alexander et al. talk about in _A Timeless Way
> of Building_ and _A Pattern Book_.  Alexander and his colleagues try to
> identify the universal patterns of architecture, patterns which
> encourage community and allow for healthy development of self within the
> physical and community structures within which we live. Nothing in these
> works carries with it a feel for inviting destructiveness --and indeed
> the structures would seem to invite the opposite, building in ways which
> bring us together rather than taking us apart or taking others apart.

Yes.  So here is a model of architecture that facilitates
harmony, community, connection.  I hope that Psybernet does the
same, and would like to have "it" do more ... a few years back we
started a Pattern Language of Psyberspace.  Susan where in the
psyber-architecture of Psybernet is there invitation to abuse or
even conflict?  I wonder though if those communities that we see
the photos of in the Pattern language book had no Minotaur?  How
revolutionary can architecture be?  I remember a time in my life
when i thought that if we had a transformation of the
relationships of production, that this would lead to a
transformation of all relationships, that property was the root
of all evil.  I still think that those sorts of basic material
roots are more important than the language we use. That the
language is a product of the underlying dynamics.  That
transforming the language will not eradicate the problem.  I am
all for using the psychologically clean language, and inclusive
non-sexist language, I think it helps, but it is not basic,
primary, or at the core of the problem of violence and abuse.

How can psybernet, and psyberspace be built?  I see the organic
development in such things as the DreamEvent.  Robert and i were
recently in a book discussion that he announced in the list.  In
Christchurch we have a small group that has a list and also meets
f2f.  We have had a GBG that was played on this list on Hoon's
web site ... that a form of reworking.  But there is another
level to reach in the exploration of psyberspace ... I can almost
see it but not quite get there.


Susan wrote:
> And while the Minotaur may be within us all, this is not reason to let
> him (as animus perhaps?) run wild destroying both labyrinth and
> explorers--thus we may not know what mail will bring out the minotaur
> inside, but one or two roars would seem to be sufficient to recognize it
> and name it so that it can then be addressed. A continual and habitual
> roaring at and attacking of others denies the rising of the Minotaur in
> one's self and certainly does not show openness to growth at having
> found such a manifestation of self inside--which would seem to deny the
> purposes for which one is on the list.

At a general level I agree, of course.  But is there a Minotaur
hidden in this general description?  Would I be far wrong in
thinking you have specifics in mind here behind the
generalisation?  A Minotaur in sheep's clothing?  Can you
entertain that idea?  In other words that the passage can refer
to itself and you as the author?  That this passage (pun
intended) can reveal the rising Minotaur ... and may be obscuring
a deeper purpose?  I know this is a fairly heavy criticism, or it
feels like that anyway ... can we avoid this sort of thing?
Should we even try?  I think if anyone "took it personally" that
it would not be simply a projection ... it seems to me the itself
invites that sort of response.


I will look for the monster in what I have just written.


Walter




___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:27:57 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Degrees of Publicness.
In-Reply-To:  <350CC704.7C9C165C@sunbird.usd.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Susan wrote:

> Alexander and his colleagues try to
> identify the universal patterns of architecture, patterns which
> encourage community and allow for healthy development of self within the
> physical and community structures within which we live.

Here are some quotes from *A Pattern Language*,

36 Degrees of Publicness.

***

People are different and the way they want to
place their houses in a neighborhood is one of
the most basic kinds of difference.

***

Therefore:

Make a clear distinction between three kinds of
homes - those on quiet backwaters, those on busy
streets,  and those that are more or less in
between.  Make sure that those on quiet backwaters
are on twisting paths, and that these houses are
themselves physically secluded; make sure that the
more public houses are on busy streets with many
people passing by all day long, and that the
houses themselves are relatively exposed to
passers-by.  The in between houses may then be
located on paths half-way between the other two.
Give every neighborhood about equal numbers of
these three kinds of homes.

***

~~~ end quote ~~~

We need three distinct lists at least in Psybernet!  I think that is the
challenge, and that could well reposition Psyber-L as an "in between" one,
perhaps with a slightly different structure.


Walter




___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:43:39 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Degrees of Publicness.
In-Reply-To:  <350e49bf.41487311@mail.xtra.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> make sure that the
> more public houses are on busy streets with many
> people passing by all day long,


I have made a Gateway to Psyberspace

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm

Which if i can update it regularly might be a good way to open your
browser.  This is part of my thinking that there is a public area, from
which we can access more secluded places.

The PsyberNews news search i have there is bringing up an interesting
selection!

I have made one of my posts the feature of the day, not egoism, but would
will quickly have others up there with their permission.

NOTE:  I have set up a PsyberChat area.  Any use?

Other suggestions?


Walter


___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:04:19 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Julienne <zjulienne@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject:      Re: Degrees of Publicness.
In-Reply-To:  <35119862.61621085@mail.xtra.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 03:43 PM 3/17/98 +0000, Walter wrote:

>I have made a Gateway to Psyberspace
>
> >http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm

>NOTE:  I have set up a PsyberChat area.  Any use?

We just begun a PsyberChat area on one of my lists, and it generated
wonderful enthusiasm and a new sense of closeness. We'll have to
see how it progresses. One of the unexpected side effects is that I now
find list
members just checking in with a few words at all hours of the night and day. A
bit disconcerting at first, like having an audience in my bedroom - or in my
computer, because they knew just when I was on. I wasn't sure that I wanted
people to know when I was and wasn't on. But it was lovely to have people
there and wanting to connect. Very warm-fuzzy. :)

The conversations were very different as they were more spontaneous and
conversational - and also very funny. All in all, I loved it.

Julienne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:29:28 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Degrees of Publicness.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

I just checked out the gateway and found it to be quite good.  I think
that it might be a good idea to set up a few chat topics/threads and
times for those who think of visiting for a chat ... wandering in and
finding an empty room with no promise of ever finding anyone there.

As for featuring a post-of-the-day, it does have a certain quality that
I think can "add" to this page ... a sort of "hors-d'oeurve".

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:46:39 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Getting to the Core - of Therapy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter -

I've changed the subject line to reflect the topic you and I started towards last
week.  Things are busy for me so its tough to find more than a few minutes to
write.  In earlier posts we've noted a difference in perspective on therapy between
you and I.  I'd characterize this difference as a being a bias towards action and
results on my part vs. a concern for individual exploration and self understanding
on your part.  This is obviously not a complete description but is hopefully close
enough to get us started.

In our previous posts on this topic, we wrote the following:


 Jim had written to Robert,

> > Lastly, and again from my experience and from a review of the available
> > research - people suffering from depression rarely recover when their only
> > treatment is psychotherapy.  When the treatment is with medication alone,
> > they recover approximately 80% of the time - but remain very prone to
> > relapse.  When both modalities are pursued, the recovery rate is the same as
> > for medication and the likelihood of relapse is greatly reduced (probably
> > because the person benefits from the psychotherapy and is therefore able to
> > change the depressive aspects of their life).  I have almost certainly
> > oversimplified here and will probably be pilloried (sp?) for having
> > sacrificed a sacred cow - but what the hell.
>

Walter replied,

> Well see what my speller has to say about pilloried!  No pillory
> intended ...  but it would seem only non therapists set much
> store by so called research.  I don't think it can actually be
> done in the way you describe.  Were you here when we had the last
> discussion on this?  What is the criteria for getting well?

Your response re. "only non-therapists set much store ..." feels closed and
dismissive to me.  As if you were saying "Silly person, if only you were a
therapist you would know what a silly discussion this is."  Hopefully this isn't
what you meant and as a counter I would offer that I could say the same thing back,
along the lines of "only a non-scientist would fail to set much store in
research".  Going down this passage becomes a race to see who can transform into
the minotaur first.

Moving along though - whether you believe it doable or not, the research is already
done, more or less as follows (I'm summarizing from memory here and unfortunately
have lost the reference, perhaps someone else can help out here and correct
anything I get wrong).


     People diagnosed as depressed were all referred into treatment.  Modalities
     included medication only, various forms of psychotherapy only, medication and
     psychotherapy given together.  Prior to entering treatment, each person was
     tested for depression level and other life quality indicators (e.g.. working
     or not, quality of relationships etc.).  The study was longitudinal i.e. the
     participants were retested at set intervals both during and after treatment.

     The results were essentially that no improvement occurred in the groups
     receiving psychotherapy alone.  The medication only group did improve i.e.
     they felt better, worked more etc.  Interestingly, of the groups receiving
     psychotherapy in conjunction with medication, only the group receiving
     "Cognitive Behavioural Therapy" improved more than with medication alone.  In
     other words, the other psychotherapies produced no more improvement than did
     medication alone.


Of course this was only one study, albeit a large and influential one.  So far it
has had a significant impact on treatment choices for depression that are funded by
third parties.

Walter then wrote,

> For example, i have been working with a person in grief over a
> relationship ending.  This has triggered all sorts of other
> stuff, which grief usually does.  Work performance is down.
> Luckily this person can pay for therapy and is ok about it taking
> a its own time, there is no agency watching, which means it can
> actually happen.  Priority over work is "getting to the core"
> which seems to necessitate troubled times and days off, and trips
> away.  Major crisis, being handled in a major way.

There's a problem of definition here, in DSM terms what you describe would probably
be an "Adjustment Disorder with Depressed Mood" and not a "Major Depression".  The
former is most amenable to psychotherapy, the latter is not.  When someone has
Major Depression they are experiencing severe  disturbance in sleep, diet, energy
and mood that have persisted for at least 6 months.  As limited in some respects as
the DSM is - the relative rigour of its definitions at least allows us to ensure we
are discussing the same thing.

Walter goes on,

> Now I can do the "soulwork" on this that Hoon describes, the
> interpretation on it that i make, is that the person is going
> through it in a way that they will have a better marriage next
> time, that cancers and other diseases will be avoided, that
> parenting will improve dramatically and that the spiritual side
> of life can emerge later in a more natural and full way.  There
> is no way i can prove any of this, even if it all comes to pass,
> how can anyone say that it was the therapy, even the client wont
> know that.  I "know" it!
>

On an empirical level you are correct - in considering an individual's response
there is no way to prove that the therapy does (or does not) make a contribution to
the healing.  At the macro level, where the response of multiple individuals is
measured, then empirical methods of understanding are essential.  Let me illustrate
with an example that is probably inflammatory so please accept the following
qualification.  I'm trying to describe the danger of not having empirical tests of
therapeutic interventions, I am most certainly NOT implying that you are akin to
Freeman and Watson.

E.G..  In the 50's, primarily in North America, thousands of people received
lobotomies as a treatment for depression, schizophrenia and other diagnoses.  For a
time, a variant of the procedure was even performed as an office procedure.
Imagine walking in to see your doctor and complaining of 'feeling blue' - a swish
of the knife and all is forgotten.   Of course we now recognize that evil was done
to these people, the lesions induced in their brains did irreparable harm to their
personalities and to their lives.  Most became so dysfunctional that they required
long term custodial care.  Freeman and Watson are credited as the popularizors of
this treatment and their work certainly resulted in evil being done ... but its
instructive to note that they were not evil men.  Their writings make it clear that
based on their anecdotal observations they truly believed that they were helping
their patients.  Again based on anecdotal observations of others, the popularity of
the procedure grew.  It was only when objective testing of personality and
cognitive functioning was introduced into empirical studies of the procedure's
outcomes - that the evil was substantiated and the use of the procedure curtailed.

Walter further observed,

> In the meantime work performance is down, there are spells of
> intense sadness.
>
> I am quite non-directive of this process, but know therapists who
> do cognitive restructuring and so on, to speed this process up.
> I know how to do that too, I think it is unethical as this is
> life's way of opening doors into the psyche ... there is far too
> much pressure on us not to allow the doors to open.
>

I don't think this is a fair description of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.
Regardless, is it ethical to ignore research that indicates a treatment is
ineffective?  I have had to intervene in cases where analysts were preventing
suicidal clients from seeking medical help and actively counselled against the use
of medication.   To my mind this not much different than the medical quacks who
offer bogus cancer cures - by holding out false hope, they lead their patients away
from real hope.

> How would research handle this?  I reckon they'd get it wrong by
> and large.  Would the person have been categorised as
> "depressed".  I think the criteria would have been met.  I don't
> think of it as depressed at all, so even in what we are measuring
> there is little agreement, and much mis-lablineg, as grief does
> not come up in the DSM IV (correct me if i am wrong), and on some
> forms we have to put something "medical".
>

I responded on the DSM earlier, also grief does come up - suggests that pronounced
distress, including absence from work and social withdrawal is likely to persist
for up to 3 months.  If persistent after that time, then the person should be
evaluated for depression.  The DSM is careful to point out that sadness may
appropriately persist for much longer.

> What is the illness and what is the outcome, and what is therapy?
> I know what i do in my room and what i call psychotherapy, but it
> *ceases* to be that when there is a researcher there, or a tape
> or a camera ... we are dealing with the psyche that is present in
> the room and any audience is part of the psyche.  Thus there is a
> Hiesenberg (sp) principle at work, if we view it changes.
>

Research takes many forms beyond the direct sorts of observation you describe
here.  Real life outcomes seem to me to be adequate measures - what percentage
returned to work?  Which intervention had the lowest suicide rate?

> These things i am saying here of course create hell for the
> therapists (who think along these lines) and the people who can
> allocate resources to therapy, and the relationship.  I can
> understand the problem for a manager!  I don't know the answers.
> Upstairs in this building where I work there is a practice that
> will supply nothing other than a receipt to the client and
> guarantees 100% confidentiality of the therapy process -- it
> makes sense to me, but some people can really benefit from
> funding that would not be available under those circumstances.  I
> usually find some workable way.
>

Yup - its a challenge, how much should I authorize spending?  How do I know the
therapist is an effective one?  If I'm paying the bills and the therapist does
damage - am I liable?  At what point does my need for info to justify the expense,
become  intrusive and distort or destroy the therapeutic alliance?  These are tough
questions and I have yet to get good answers from either the insurance, or the
therapeutic, communities.

...Jim

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Mar 1998 03:46:30 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Degrees of Publicness.
In-Reply-To:  <350F2378.374@cybersurf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert,

good to hear from you!

> I just checked out the gateway and found it to be quite good.  I think
> that it might be a good idea to set up a few chat topics/threads and
> times for those who think of visiting for a chat ... wandering in and
> finding an empty room with no promise of ever finding anyone there.

I am glad that you find it to be quite good.  I am not a great
"chatter" but i am more than happy to put up a schedule, with
topics. Do you have any in mind?  Who knows this might be a good
adjunct to Psyber-L or it might create some new dynamics.  having
the chat room, even if it is not the best example of one on the
site creates some sense of containment.  The technology could be
improved with time.  I guess that "place" is even more public
than this one.  I had in mind the metaphor of the streets and
houses and the traffic. My interest is in the backwaters, and the
windy streets, but i think for those to really work we need the
main road.  I have always seen psyber-L as fulfilling some of
that need.  A chat area and other more web + email based
discussion could fulfil that function?

I have seen technically good places, which have chat and web
based threaded discussion which also sends out emails, and it
does not work for any depth.  I am thinking of the Western Canon
University -- great potential, lousy reality.


> As for featuring a post-of-the-day, it does have a certain quality that
> I think can "add" to this page ... a sort of "hors-d'oeurve".

It feels a bit exposing, and i would only do it with the
permission of the writer.  If anyone thinks a post would be
suitable for that, let me know, and get an ok from the writer.

The same applies to the psyber-L member's web site list.  let me
know if you want to be included.


Thanks for the comment.  This is very experimental, and so it
might change quite a bit.


Walter
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:45:36 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: Getting to the Core - of Therapy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jim,

I'd like to join in this debate as it is of abiding interest to me.  I
have studied Beck and other cognitive-behavioralist practitioners.
There is much that I admire about the work done by Beck, and associates,
especially the evolution of these ideas into the aspect called "brief
therapy" and "solution-focused therapy".  That aside, I don't hold the
scientific findings to be "Accurate".  I that accurancy can truly be
measured in this very subjective domaine.

I hear of great results using psychosynthesis, RET, NLP, psychoanalysis
in its various genres, logotherapy, and religion.  Pharmacotherapy also
claims great success ... yet, the reality as I've experienced it and
sense it, and read it (in studies of suicide) is that it takes a
movement to meaning and purpose to truly be able to get passed
depression.  True, a person can be medicated to enable that person to be
functional in the workplace and community and family.  But, there is
more to this than being "funtional.

If one takes the time to research people, one finds that it takes
engagement, a communion of human relation to move significantly passed
the deserts of depression.  In my readings authored by many Jungian
analysts, there seems to have been many stories of success in moving
past depression.  It appears that the task of moving through depression
is a major part of the process called individuation.  I don't for a
moment think this is a process that many can or should follow.  It
almost seems to be a process you fall into, a welcomed journey
so-to-speak.

A friend of mine is also having problems and has just taken four or five
weeks to get his shit together so that he can return to work.  He isn't
a teacher, rather, he is in managment within industry.  His route to
recovery, a route I encouraged (he knows me as a therapist but not his
therapist ... we are running buddies (marathons, etc.) ... his route?
Prozac and lithium, and psychotherapy.

Insurance programs don't fund much in the way of therapy.  And when they
do, it's either for severe psychological disturbances with a
psychiatrist or increasingly, a "limited" number of sessions for "quick
fixes" a la solution-focused brief therapy (behavioral-cognitive in
orientation).  But, is that a good enough reason to "embrace" this
modality? Is it a good enough reason to toss out humanistic
psychotherapies which are sprinkled with aspects of spirituality,
mythology, and poetry?

Just my opinion and I don't worry about what it's worth ...

Robert

PS  I don't find the holding onto research and science as so
"objective".  Science for the most part is intuitive and based on
faith.  Ask any mathematician or physicist who works at any depth in
their fields ...  :)

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:51:04 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: dest.message - females/Dolores?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bent,

Welcome back to active listening ... )  I love your rare posts.  Perhaps
they won't continue to be so rare (my hope).  Shake up the container
that holds us here in PSYBERIA.

>  NO !!!
>  Then we will miss all they  fun ,all the good gender issuses ,that
> makes the hole Psyber -L shake . And then nobody
> would like to sing about " great balls on fire ".

I've just re-strung my guitar and am having problems getting it to stay
tuned  ... tomorrow ...  Eric Clapton anyone?

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:56:51 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      PsyberGate
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

Check out the following site with regards to creating a chat environment
for restricted access chats.

http://www.communityware.com/

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:06:17 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      SnowStorm in Calgary
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All ... especially Meeseo,

I have put some of my day to use with trying to capture the experience
of 50 centimeters of in twenty hours into poetic form.

White hugging branches which bend
Thin yet bearing the weight gracefully
A tension that becomes art
Supple in their flexibility
Branches reach for their roots

Yet, one branch has broken
Rigid at its core, hardened,
It was unable to suffer change
Suffer tension ...

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Mar 1998 00:39:03 -1
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     Authenticated sender is <wpa00958@mail.web4you.dk>
From:         Bent Bogedal Christoffersen <wpa00958@ERIS.WEB4YOU.DK>
Subject:      Re: Degrees of Publicness.
In-Reply-To:  <350f3fbb.729383@smtp.xtra.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

  Dear walter


> Thanks for the comment.  This is very experimental, and so it
> might change quite a bit.
>
>
> Walter

  Im not a chatter. But would like to try here on Psyber -L
I went to Your Page and on to the chat ,where java is started
to load. And then my  computer is saying  "Fault". do i need
some program for joinning the chat part ???Did You tell about
before and where???
Bent Bogedal Christoffersen
http://www.cybernet.dk/users/bbc

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Mar 1998 00:39:03 -1
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Comments:     Authenticated sender is <wpa00958@mail.web4you.dk>
From:         Bent Bogedal Christoffersen <wpa00958@ERIS.WEB4YOU.DK>
Subject:      Re: dest.message - females/Dolores?
In-Reply-To:  <350F60C8.30A2@cybersurf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

> Bent,

> I've just re-strung my guitar and am having problems getting it to stay
> tuned  ... tomorrow ...  Eric Clapton anyone?
>
> Robert

Start out with tune it half to one tone up where its sopose to stay.
Leave it the night over and tune it into picht. I do that the night
before I`m going to play a gig.

And about writing to the list:
Anyway i recieved to letters ,which came out blank ???
  I wonder what happend ,it could be an way of making
a answer.
 i`m reading as much as I can.From the list. But very long letters ,I
leave them unread in the first half. I like short clear ones. And
Have not wery much time to answer. But Now Dolores is back ,who
knows. I really like what she writes.sometimes ,colorful and
precily.Like a kind of rock musi lyrics rythm

>" HotPussy or Wet4You."
>" if your a ragingly horny 15 year old, I guess any port
in a storm."

By the way music to me ,is much better that writing ,what is it
about it that creeps in and makes you feel  all kinds of feelings.
All kind of emotions and images. And a great lyric supporter.
i love the person that invented music.




Bent Bogedal Christoffersen
http://www.cybernet.dk/users/bbc

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:45:59 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: More at the Core
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

I want to offer congratulations to both you and Kate as you move into
this era of renamed relation.  I guess this is akin to an alchemical
process in its own rite/right.

        Coniunctio ...
... of consciousness and unconsciousness
... of fire and water
... of sun and moon
... of male and female
... of king and queen
... of body and spirit
......... of bridegroom and bride ...

May your love transform you in that vessel that you construct through
relation.

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Mar 1998 06:38:20 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: More at the Core
In-Reply-To:  <3511F487.155F@cybersurf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert,

> I want to offer congratulations to both you and Kate as you move into
> this era of renamed relation.  I guess this is akin to an alchemical
> process in its own rite/right.
>
>         Coniunctio ...
> ... of consciousness and unconsciousness
> ... of fire and water
> ... of sun and moon
> ... of male and female
> ... of king and queen
> ... of body and spirit
> ......... of bridegroom and bride ...
>
> May your love transform you in that vessel that you construct through
> relation.

This feels wonderful to receive Robert.  It captures simply what I think
Kate & I are up to and your wish for how it might lead to new
transformation fits well with what i think might be happening ... I hope we
can handle it!


Walter
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:10:47 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: PsyberGate
In-Reply-To:  <350F6222.1697@cybersurf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert,

> Check out the following site with regards to creating a chat environment
> for restricted access chats.
>
> http://www.communityware.com/

I have spent a few hours doing just that.  It is interesting to
see how the expensive project involving Virtual Community
advocate Howard Rhinegold is evolving. It is having an impact on
me.  You know how we see the interior of cyberspace, one minute
as a highway, the next as a lake, and then as a frontier and so
on?  Well I have just had one of those perceptual shifts.
Somehow there is too much of something ... a bit like too much of
the same thing on television , no matter how different it is, one
channel to the next, it is all television.

I created the exclusive chat space.  It is in a community called
PsyberCom and the Password is temenos.  I wont be going back
there.  It is too much of a lie.  Firstly there is no sense of
community or temenos, and I would not try to build it there
(although I gave it a brief go.) I created a fictitious member of
the community, to see what it might be like for someone coming
in, and found that when I entered I was part of other communities
in a sort of land of chat.  A sort of CyberDisney.  I was
inundated with invitations to join up!  Not literally, they
attempt to be discreet, but simply by see the signposts
everywhere. They wanted me as a head count.  Cyberspace was no
longer a place where individuals set up their hut on the
frontier, it has huge apartment blocks where psybercom is in suit
number 3782 or something. A new apartment can be built in 5
minutes.  I felt like a lonely man in a big city told that if 5
people did not come in one month we would be evicted.  I have
great tolerance of silence here but it would feel bad there!

Not only is there CommunityWare, there is also Tripod and
GeoCities, all competing for people wanting free web space where
they can put up their ads, though I did not see any in
CommunityWare.

I am trying to get in touch with what that is that I feel.  It is
partly some envy, that over there these people have such luxury
... partly that cyberspace which has some aesthetic value to me
has some ugly stuff.  It is not the individual home pages with
all their tackiness that I find ugly it is these corporate sites
... mostly it is that I want to build something more here that
enhances the psyche and I find it hard!  I find it hard to be
rational ... CommunityWare put me in mood!

One thing I disliked about the communication space was that it
consists of web based discussion, not email.  This means one has
to be online in the space they design to read it.  There is
something I like about having control over my own interface.  I
can sort store and delete posts here as I wish.  In web based
discussion on CommunityWare there is no quoting, posts tend to be
short and chatty, they have no individuality ... I sound negative
and judgmental ...  I could imagine finding a good group there
but then being eternally frustrated by the way it all works.  In
psyber-l one could do it all just like they do it there, you
could go NOMAIL and read and write on line, and there is even the
option of quoting in the L-soft setup.  Over in the L-soft
archives there is a sense that there are other lists, but they
have their own individuality, I find it a more honest site.  It
does not call itself a community.  Robert I know you dislike
calling this a "list", yet I find that delightfully neutral after
setting up something called a Community in the embedded software
before anything happened.

At the same time as playing around in CommunityWare I found
several news items related to these entrepreneurial sites, as
well as an article in response the Technorealism by Judith Lewis
that I liked.  The links are at

http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm

~~~

A rave, but it makes me realise that building a psyberspace is
what I want to do and have a passion for.  I also think we have
something here, that is well on the path!  Where to from here?

Thanks Robert, for the URL, I'd be interested what you thought
when you saw it all?  I hope my rave does not get to you.
Perhaps it is all a projection anyway ... well what else could it
be!


Walter


___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Mar 1998 14:26:05 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Degrees of Publicness.
In-Reply-To:  <199803182336.AAA27689@eris.web-plus.dk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bent
>   Im not a chatter. But would like to try here on Psyber -L
> I went to Your Page and on to the chat ,where java is started
> to load. And then my  computer is saying  "Fault". do i need
> some program for joinning the chat part ???Did You tell about
> before and where???

It works with java, and your browser needs to have that switched
on ... exactly how it works or how I got the applet i don't know.
Mine just does it.  It works on my laptop too -- a 486 and quite
slow.

I will post a schedule up on the web if anyone proposes one here
in the list.

Walter


___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Mar 1998 01:37:44 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Does anyone else have this problem?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

I am up here in our house in the hills.  On my own with the
little dog.  On my own with this link into psyberspace.  I love
this solitude.  I have arranged to have 4 days here, half way
through, and have literally not seen one person (f2f)!  Most of
the time I am at the keyboard, but have had delightful rambles
over the hills, and through the bush.

The main item on the agenda is the psychodrama thesis, which is
due in by the end of the month.  It takes me so much effort!  It
is like wrestling with a snake.  I re-arrange the tense in one
section, then add something in the conclusion which I then need
to spell out in several other places first and so on!  Nothing
major, just small refinements, but they seem to take longer than
writing the thing in the first place.  I am working through the
emailed comments from my supervisor, a great way to work.  Very
social!  I am easily distracted from the work.

~ Books ~
I have a swag of them here, and delight in the occasional cup of
coffee in the sun, with a book.  The main one is the novel I am
reading at the moment, A.S. Byatt's *Babel Tower* which I love!
I'd recommend it to anyone in Psyber-L.  It captures the sixties,
and has a delight in words which we must share if we hang on this
list!  Listening to Bob Dylan.

~ Report ~
I completed a report on the Mailing list I have set up and
facilitated for a national health organisation here.  It has not
gone all that well, but am pleased with the report, and the
possibilities for the future.

What is my problem then?

The calling!  I want to get to all the other books.  I want get
back to Psyber-L ... to the debate with Jim about psychotherapy,
to reinvolve myself in Robert's journey, to continue to explore
the myth of Daedalus and the labyrinth, and how it relates to
where to next with Psybernet.  I have bought up some mythology
books.  I am interested in the comparison Bent makes with music
and writing.  Writing like a Rock'n'Roll Star!  Dolores, do you
feel flattered?  Now there's an ambition.  I always wanted to be
like Mick Jagger.  Mostly I have a yearning to fulfil this quest
for psyber explorations.

That is just the calling from Psyber-L, there is also the f2f +
list group I am in.  We have met and will meet again soon.  There
is some writing I want to do in that list.  There is also a plan
to pursue my psyber interests & go to CyberCon98 in Boston? I
want to see if I can get some funding for that?  Would it be a
good thing to do?  Has anyone been to one of those?  The trip
alone world do me the world of good.  Suggestions about sources
for sponsorship would be great.

In addition I have a swag of work here from my practice.  Reports
to write, accounts to file, bills to pay. It does not stop there.
The computer needs attention.  The HDD is too full, the swap file
is not working and slowing things down! I need to do some good
backup and deleting. The dishes need doing.  I'd love to surf a
bit -- check out A.S. Byatt reviews on the net.  Update the
PsyberGate (good name for it Robert!)

That is my state of mind, and I like sharing it here.  Like a
journal.  I also think that this yearning I have is more than
personal to me.  What do we want from Psyberspace does it just
pull me?  Am I, in my expression of this pull something of the
protagonist here, for others as well?  More accurately what does
Psyberspace want from us!  It feels like it is calling me as much
as a yearning from within.  I feel tied to real life by time!
Delightful as it is.


Walter

___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:16:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         JoAnne Schmitz <jschmitz@QIS.NET>
Subject:      Re: Julienne/The Hacker Barbie.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 02:34 AM 3/17/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Dear Julienne, and all
>I couldn't resist this, bearing in mind the topic a day or so ago.....My
>three year old is worryingly addicted to Barbie...I cringe when forced to
>read her the *Barbie* magazine which she invariably picks over tales of
>Peter Rabbit and Thomas the Tank Engine when given the choice.
>
>The Hacker Barbie.
>(LA, California) Mattel announces their new line of Barbie products, the
>Hacker Barbie. These new dolls will be released next
>month. The aim of these dolls is to revert the stereotype that women are
>numerophobic, computer-illiterate, and academically
>challenged.

I'm sure you know this is a joke!  But just in case you didn't, if you think
about it you realize they wouldn't dare make Barbie a hacker.  Why, then she
wouldn't be paying for programs, computers and accessories, she'd be
stealing them.  Very anti-consumer.

-JoAnne

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:47:28 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: PsyberGate
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Another link that seems to fit with this enterprise - haven't checked it out
myself but here it is anyway with the description from Yahoo Picks.

 http://www.electric-hosts.com/

"Electric Hosts - Howard Rheingold's online think tank for virtual
community builders."



Walter Logeman wrote:

> Robert,
>
> > Check out the following site with regards to creating a chat environment
> > for restricted access chats.
> >
> > http://www.communityware.com/
>
> I have spent a few hours doing just that.  It is interesting to
> see how the expensive project involving Virtual Community
> advocate Howard Rhinegold is evolving. It is having an impact on
> me.  You know how we see the interior of cyberspace, one minute
> as a highway, the next as a lake, and then as a frontier and so
> on?  Well I have just had one of those perceptual shifts.
> Somehow there is too much of something ... a bit like too much of
> the same thing on television , no matter how different it is, one
> channel to the next, it is all television.
>
> I created the exclusive chat space.  It is in a community called
> PsyberCom and the Password is temenos.  I wont be going back
> there.  It is too much of a lie.  Firstly there is no sense of
> community or temenos, and I would not try to build it there
> (although I gave it a brief go.) I created a fictitious member of
> the community, to see what it might be like for someone coming
> in, and found that when I entered I was part of other communities
> in a sort of land of chat.  A sort of CyberDisney.  I was
> inundated with invitations to join up!  Not literally, they
> attempt to be discreet, but simply by see the signposts
> everywhere. They wanted me as a head count.  Cyberspace was no
> longer a place where individuals set up their hut on the
> frontier, it has huge apartment blocks where psybercom is in suit
> number 3782 or something. A new apartment can be built in 5
> minutes.  I felt like a lonely man in a big city told that if 5
> people did not come in one month we would be evicted.  I have
> great tolerance of silence here but it would feel bad there!
>
> Not only is there CommunityWare, there is also Tripod and
> GeoCities, all competing for people wanting free web space where
> they can put up their ads, though I did not see any in
> CommunityWare.
>
> I am trying to get in touch with what that is that I feel.  It is
> partly some envy, that over there these people have such luxury
> ... partly that cyberspace which has some aesthetic value to me
> has some ugly stuff.  It is not the individual home pages with
> all their tackiness that I find ugly it is these corporate sites
> ... mostly it is that I want to build something more here that
> enhances the psyche and I find it hard!  I find it hard to be
> rational ... CommunityWare put me in mood!
>
> One thing I disliked about the communication space was that it
> consists of web based discussion, not email.  This means one has
> to be online in the space they design to read it.  There is
> something I like about having control over my own interface.  I
> can sort store and delete posts here as I wish.  In web based
> discussion on CommunityWare there is no quoting, posts tend to be
> short and chatty, they have no individuality ... I sound negative
> and judgmental ...  I could imagine finding a good group there
> but then being eternally frustrated by the way it all works.  In
> psyber-l one could do it all just like they do it there, you
> could go NOMAIL and read and write on line, and there is even the
> option of quoting in the L-soft setup.  Over in the L-soft
> archives there is a sense that there are other lists, but they
> have their own individuality, I find it a more honest site.  It
> does not call itself a community.  Robert I know you dislike
> calling this a "list", yet I find that delightfully neutral after
> setting up something called a Community in the embedded software
> before anything happened.
>
> At the same time as playing around in CommunityWare I found
> several news items related to these entrepreneurial sites, as
> well as an article in response the Technorealism by Judith Lewis
> that I liked.  The links are at
>
> http://www.psybernet.co.nz/gateway.htm
>
> ~~~
>
> A rave, but it makes me realise that building a psyberspace is
> what I want to do and have a passion for.  I also think we have
> something here, that is well on the path!  Where to from here?
>
> Thanks Robert, for the URL, I'd be interested what you thought
> when you saw it all?  I hope my rave does not get to you.
> Perhaps it is all a projection anyway ... well what else could it
> be!
>
> Walter
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:50:50 -0700
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <odyssey@CYBERSURF.NET>
Subject:      Re: PsyberGate
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jim,

I just checked it out.

>  http://www.electric-hosts.com/

What I noticed about them is the use of the same site as I mentioned in
a previous post "CommunityWare".  This site that you pointed us to
appears to be a discussion place "about" online communities for those
wanting to build/host online communities.

I'll have to look into this more before commenting further.

Robert

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Mar 1998 02:54:27 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Degrees of Publicness.
In-Reply-To:  <350f3fbb.729383@smtp.xtra.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

A few days ago i wrote:

> My interest is in the backwaters, and the
> windy streets, but i think for those to really work we need the
> main road.  I have always seen psyber-L as fulfilling some of
> that need.

I think the Motif that i use for Psybernet is a map and design of
the psyberspace i want to see evolve.  One circle contains it
all.  Within that there are other circles all connected to a
central stem.  There are some exquisite small flowers.  There is
both the sense of it being an artifice and a naturally growing
phenomena.  There are rich fruits.

Have a look at it at:

http://www.psybernet.co.nz


Walter

___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 23 Mar 1998 03:13:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: PsyberGate
In-Reply-To:  <3515CE0A.1E4C@cybersurf.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert,

> I just checked it out.
>
> >  http://www.electric-hosts.com/
>
> What I noticed about them is the use of the same site as I mentioned in
> a previous post "CommunityWare".  This site that you pointed us to
> appears to be a discussion place "about" online communities for those
> wanting to build/host online communities.
>
> I'll have to look into this more before commenting further.

I was automatically made a member of this as I set up a
"community".  I should go back, and have another look if i can
overcome my initial responses.  What i saw it that it related
mostly to the use of the software and the ethos of Electric
minds.  How to live in their apartment.

Walter
___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:59:58 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      test
In-Reply-To:  <351ca859.5666367@mail.xtra.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Osama Abdul Hadi,


welcome to the list.  If you get this you are on it, please let me
know.


Walter

___________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Mar 1998 21:33:39 -0500
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Jim Calder <jfcalder@EASYNET.ON.CA>
Subject:      Re: Does anyone else have this problem?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter --

Hmm ... not sure I'd see being tied to real life as a problem (is this
really what you were asking?)

On the other hand I do empathize with the feeling of too many
interesting things and too little time.  Of course if I have an
important yet uninteresting thing that must be done - many many things
around me become suddenly fascinating - even trimming toe nails can do
in a pinch.

Cheers on the thesis, hope that productivity triumphed.

...Jim

Walter Logeman wrote:

> All,
>
> I am up here in our house in the hills.  On my own with the
> little dog.  On my own with this link into psyberspace.  I love
> this solitude.  I have arranged to have 4 days here, half way
> through, and have literally not seen one person (f2f)!  Most of
> the time I am at the keyboard, but have had delightful rambles
> over the hills, and through the bush.
>
> The main item on the agenda is the psychodrama thesis, which is
> due in by the end of the month.  It takes me so much effort!  It
> is like wrestling with a snake.  I re-arrange the tense in one
> section, then add something in the conclusion which I then need
> to spell out in several other places first and so on!  Nothing
> major, just small refinements, but they seem to take longer than
> writing the thing in the first place.  I am working through the
> emailed comments from my supervisor, a great way to work.  Very
> social!  I am easily distracted from the work.
>
> ~ Books ~
> I have a swag of them here, and delight in the occasional cup of
> coffee in the sun, with a book.  The main one is the novel I am
> reading at the moment, A.S. Byatt's *Babel Tower* which I love!
> I'd recommend it to anyone in Psyber-L.  It captures the sixties,
> and has a delight in words which we must share if we hang on this
> list!  Listening to Bob Dylan.
>
> ~ Report ~
> I completed a report on the Mailing list I have set up and
> facilitated for a national health organisation here.  It has not
> gone all that well, but am pleased with the report, and the
> possibilities for the future.
>
> What is my problem then?
>
> The calling!  I want to get to all the other books.  I want get
> back to Psyber-L ... to the debate with Jim about psychotherapy,
> to reinvolve myself in Robert's journey, to continue to explore
> the myth of Daedalus and the labyrinth, and how it relates to
> where to next with Psybernet.  I have bought up some mythology
> books.  I am interested in the comparison Bent makes with music
> and writing.  Writing like a Rock'n'Roll Star!  Dolores, do you
> feel flattered?  Now there's an ambition.  I always wanted to be
> like Mick Jagger.  Mostly I have a yearning to fulfil this quest
> for psyber explorations.
>
> That is just the calling from Psyber-L, there is also the f2f +
> list group I am in.  We have met and will meet again soon.  There
> is some writing I want to do in that list.  There is also a plan
> to pursue my psyber interests & go to CyberCon98 in Boston? I
> want to see if I can get some funding for that?  Would it be a
> good thing to do?  Has anyone been to one of those?  The trip
> alone world do me the world of good.  Suggestions about sources
> for sponsorship would be great.
>
> In addition I have a swag of work here from my practice.  Reports
> to write, accounts to file, bills to pay. It does not stop there.
> The computer needs attention.  The HDD is too full, the swap file
> is not working and slowing things down! I need to do some good
> backup and deleting. The dishes need doing.  I'd love to surf a
> bit -- check out A.S. Byatt reviews on the net.  Update the
> PsyberGate (good name for it Robert!)
>
> That is my state of mind, and I like sharing it here.  Like a
> journal.  I also think that this yearning I have is more than
> personal to me.  What do we want from Psyberspace does it just
> pull me?  Am I, in my expression of this pull something of the
> protagonist here, for others as well?  More accurately what does
> Psyberspace want from us!  It feels like it is calling me as much
> as a yearning from within.  I feel tied to real life by time!
> Delightful as it is.
>
> Walter
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  www.psybernet.co.nz
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:20:46 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Goodbye for now
In-Reply-To:  <19980314.225703.9238.0.xcjones@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

What a strange place.

I have just been to see Jackie Brown.  Loved it!  I went on my
own because my usual movie partners are away, Kate is on the
horse trek, and Bona doesn't like the violence of Tarantino
movies.  I seem to be able to handle the violence ok!  In fact I
squirmed more in The Rainmaker, not at the violence which is
there as well, but in a typical black and white Grisham movie,
and violence is done by the baddies.  I squirmed at the dual
relationships they get into, also typical of Grisham ...

What does this have to do with Psyber-L?

During the movie (which is a bit slow) I thought about the degree
to which we all see something different, but in cyberspace, how
that is maximised to the hilt!  We can even configure our side of
it, the look, the colour, the speed, customise our experience
... I thought it would make a good movie: To show us all in rl,
some thin some fat some young, some old, some black ... in
different parts of the world, all going about our business and
involved in some way with Psyber-L.  And then it could show our
dream images of how each of us saw a different reality here in
Psyber-L.  Utterly!  Funny and tragic too.

I thought of Mr. Cory Jones!  And how he had "expected this list
to be about dream interpretation".  I thought of writing back
after all this time, how this is a *permanent dream, open to
permanent interpretation*.  How I certainly had my dream image of
him ... he lives in a very clean apartment, has neat hair with a
sharp part in one side, and always wears a suit.  Shows you what
the "Mr." does for me!

I also thought about the Shadow.  I have been to a lecture by
Bridget Lee Nicol, a colleague of mine.  She spoke on Jung's idea
of transformation.  It took a couple of hours but in essence:
Transformation involves self knowledge, self knowledge is knowing
the Shadow.  The shadow is "that thing that you do not want to
be."  This was related to his interesting post about the
Screwtape letters.

Anyway, what is strange is that I knew someone left, but I had
not remembered it was Cory, and so the imaginary conversation was
with someone who I did not recall was absent from the list.


>  I've truly enjoyed our conversations via e-mail.  Unfortunately,  I find
>  that I don't have the time to attend to your messages as deeply as I
>  should.  I never realized that an e-mail list could be so utterly immense
>  in information.  You all made interesting bservations while I was
>  reading--thank you for your wisdom.  Perhaps I'll be able to join again
>  some day when I am not so busy.
>
>  Best regards to all,
>
>  Mr. Cory Jones


So goodbye, for now,  Mr. Cory Jones!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:20:46 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Goodbye for now
In-Reply-To:  <19980314.225703.9238.0.xcjones@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

What a strange place.

I have just been to see Jackie Brown.  Loved it!  I went on my
own because my usual movie partners are away, Kate is on the
horse trek, and Bona doesn't like the violence of Tarantino
movies.  I seem to be able to handle the violence ok!  In fact I
squirmed more in The Rainmaker, not at the violence which is
there as well, but in a typical black and white Grisham movie,
and violence is done by the baddies.  I squirmed at the dual
relationships they get into, also typical of Grisham ...

What does this have to do with Psyber-L?

During the movie (which is a bit slow) I thought about the degree
to which we all see something different, but in cyberspace, how
that is maximised to the hilt!  We can even configure our side of
it, the look, the colour, the speed, customise our experience
... I thought it would make a good movie: To show us all in rl,
some thin some fat some young, some old, some black ... in
different parts of the world, all going about our business and
involved in some way with Psyber-L.  And then it could show our
dream images of how each of us saw a different reality here in
Psyber-L.  Utterly!  Funny and tragic too.

I thought of Mr. Cory Jones!  And how he had "expected this list
to be about dream interpretation".  I thought of writing back
after all this time, how this is a *permanent dream, open to
permanent interpretation*.  How I certainly had my dream image of
him ... he lives in a very clean apartment, has neat hair with a
sharp part in one side, and always wears a suit.  Shows you what
the "Mr." does for me!

I also thought about the Shadow.  I have been to a lecture by
Bridget Lee Nicol, a colleague of mine.  She spoke on Jung's idea
of transformation.  It took a couple of hours but in essence:
Transformation involves self knowledge, self knowledge is knowing
the Shadow.  The shadow is "that thing that you do not want to
be."  This was related to his interesting post about the
Screwtape letters.

Anyway, what is strange is that I knew someone left, but I had
not remembered it was Cory, and so the imaginary conversation was
with someone who I did not recall was absent from the list.


>  I've truly enjoyed our conversations via e-mail.  Unfortunately,  I find
>  that I don't have the time to attend to your messages as deeply as I
>  should.  I never realized that an e-mail list could be so utterly immense
>  in information.  You all made interesting bservations while I was
>  reading--thank you for your wisdom.  Perhaps I'll be able to join again
>  some day when I am not so busy.
>
>  Best regards to all,
>
>  Mr. Cory Jones


So goodbye, for now,  Mr. Cory Jones!


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:38:58 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      test ~ please ignore
In-Reply-To:  <351ee23e.69158466@mail.xtra.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hmm, I had a post come twice at this end and then some other
problems.  Just checking that the system is working.

Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L



=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:44:19 GMT
Reply-To:     Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      (fwd) Edupage, 29 March 1998
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I find this item from Edupage entirely predictable!  Writing & reading are
text based and most university courses are like that.  This medium suits
that style of work ... I wonder if that is it?  Or if the 8social* aspect of
campus means that people join up 'cause they know the lecturers.

Walter







DISTANCE LEARNING BY NEARBY STUDENTS
College and university administrators are finding that their distance
learning programs are immensely popular with on-campus students, who see
them as a convenient way to earn credits.  In the State University of New
York's online program, 80% of the participants are full- or part-time
students living on a SUNY campus, and at Arizona State University, only 3%
of the distance education students live in another state.  The trend
presents problems for administrators, who face decisions about how to pay
for both online and on-campus education at the same time, and how to balance
teaching loads for professors who teach both.  "What happens to traditional
teaching?  As universities put so many resources into online education, are
we going to take away from our efforts in the traditional classroom?  That's
troubling," says one administrator.  (Chronicle of Higher Education 27 Mar
98)

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM   in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L





