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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:28:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: = Changes to Psyber-L =

Hi Everybody,
  It is now November 2, 1998 yet there is no listing for November 1998 on
Psyber-L.
  Is this due to the 'Changes'?  Or...
   Perhaps for us it will always be October.  If so, then...

  Happy Halloween!

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 1 Nov 1998 07:56:16 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Nov. 2?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

Where do you live? It is only Nov. 1st here. Did I miss something? ;)

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:10:14 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Changes
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Cheryl

Life is hectic here at present and so apologies for the delay.

> A couple of questions regarding the changes. Since you will be
> introducing people to the list, does this mean that you will become once
> again a "facilitator"?

No. the exact nuances of these words is important to me, and
i am writing a short paper on it just to get it really clear...
for myself and also as i am teaching this sort of thing to a few
people. Sop comments welcome.  I see myself as List owner and
participant.  Setting these options for the list has implications
and so on, so it is not a purely technical job, that is the easy
part.  The word Host is used a lot more than when i started this,
and I have not adopted it fully here, but I think it has its
uses.  Listowner in this list is actually built into the software
in places, it is defined by the software.  I *have* to do certain
things for the list to work.

Listowner or even Host is not the same as "facilitator" to me
(with my NZ take on the language at least).  I create a space,
make sure it runs well, even introduce people, but I do not guide
the party any more than the other participants.  If there is a
mess I will try to fix it.  If someone is particularly uncivil or
abusive and will not back of from attack I might remove them, as
would a good innkeeper.  But I do not make more substantive
interventions in the process, which is how i would see a
facilitator.

However, as a participant I might!  As could any one of us.

I still have in mind that I might facilitate an online "group"
some time ... but that would be quite distinct from Psyber-L...
with a totally different purpose and structure.

> Do you see yourself as a "filter"? Do you have
> some criteria for someone not being allowed to join? I know I am coming
> into this discussion late and am rather sure that I will not oppose
> anything that gets reconfigured but I'm curious - I don't really know
> what difference these changes will make.

There has been some discussion of these things, and I thought it
might be good to "do" them at this point, and have some more as
we notice how it feels, and works.

A new subscriber is now asked to check out the Psyber-L web pages
and see if it looks as if Psyber-L is for them.  A little more
effort is needed in the "self-selection" process.  They are then
asked to send a note to me, with something about themselves and
their interest in Psyber-L and I will sub them to the list.  It
is made clear that what they send may appear on Psyber-L by way
of introduction. (I will say some more in response to Nancy).

I don't like the tone of "filter", a host at the door fits
better.  The point is that people can be removed from the list
and cant automatically get back on.  There is a door... but it is
not heavily guarded.

The exact wording of the information in the process is still
evolving.

It is a major change... and a change like this mid stream is not
ideal.  The other option was to close Psyber-L and have those who
wished to be in the new one re-join a new list... i preferred
this one.  The possibility of not being on this list is still
there!

This makes all the current subscribers "grandparents" in the
sense that new people will be joining a list in a new way and
with significant differences. I have done it will discussion here
and announcements and so on, it is true that *this is not the
list you subscribed to* in some aspects.

> Could you tell me a little more
> about what you're thinking? I know you've said many times that the
> introduction to the list is so important here - could you elaborate?

I will do this in another post... in response to the *two* senses
of introduction.  I may not get to it for a day or so.

Very briefly I think the "warm-up" is important.  I use this word
from my psychodrama days... They often say:  It is all in the
warm-up".


[I just tried to search the archives and there a re a lot of
posts from me with it in, but the hyphen needs to be left out for
some reason.]



All for now,


Walter






__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz
http://www.psybernet.co.nz

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:24:17 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Nancy S. Smith" <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: PSYBER-L Digest - 31 Oct 1998 to 1 Nov 1998 (#1998-230)

No, Cheryl.  I did!  I got a day ahead of myself and gave Bear his heart
worm med on Oct 31.
  My computer was doing all sorts of strange things over the weekend (as
well as me!)  I'd been bookmarking Psyber-L by the month and then
wondering why there were no messages the next month!  Yesterday I
couldn't persuade the Oct site to go to the Main list.  Later I
discovered
that my message (posted on Oct site) was the first on new Nov. site.
  It's fairly clear to me what happened.  Have no idea whether you'all
with better computer vocabularies will understand or not.
  Just another learning experience.

  Nancy
  Apparently even more 'scattered' than she knew, but none-the-less
wishing all Psyberians well.
>
>Date:    Sun, 1 Nov 1998 07:56:16 -0800
>From:    Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
>Subject: Nov. 2?
>
>Nancy,
>
>Where do you live? It is only Nov. 1st here. Did I miss something? ;)
>
>Cheryl
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of PSYBER-L Digest - 31 Oct 1998 to 1 Nov 1998 (#1998-230)
>**************************************************************
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1998 19:18:10 -0600
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Robert Longpre <aigle@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Wedding
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Walter,

Thinking of you and Kate as your date for formally uniting in communion
(coniunctio) draws near.  I wonder if the following poem might be fit
for the booklet.

                Le lit conjugal   -   The Marriage Bed

                        Viens, mon épouse, ma cojointe,
                                Come my spouse, my mate
                        viens poser ta tête sur mon oreiller
                                lay your head on my pillow
                        viens mettre ta main sur la mienne
                                put your hand in mine
                        viens découvrir le paradis
                                discover heaven
                        ... et l'enfer qui se cachent en moi.
                                ... and the hell which hides within me.

                        Touche, mon épouse, ma cojointe,
                                Touch my spouse, my mate
                        touche mon coeur avec tes promesses
                                my heart with your promise
                        touche mon âme avec ta tendresse
                                my soul with your tenderness
                        touche mon corps avec tes caresses
                                my body with your caress
                        ... sens l'amour qui se cache en moi.
                                ... feel the love which hides within.

                        Ensemble, nous chanterons
                                Together we'll sing
                        nos voeux de mariage.
                                our vows of marriage.
                        Ensemble, nous créerons
                                Together we'll create
                        nos propres traditions de mariage.
                                our own mythology.
                        Ensemble, nous nous rencontrerons.
                                Together we'll meet each other.

Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpré

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:48:38 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Wedding
In-Reply-To:  <3640FCD1.1BD5@sk.sympatico.ca>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Robert,

thanks
> Thinking of you and Kate as your date for formally uniting in communion
> (coniunctio) draws near.  I wonder if the following poem might be fit
> for the booklet.

It will go into our little anthology!  Thanks for your good
wishes.  The time is close, one week.

Probably unbeknown to people here, my experience in Psyber-L
played a big in our married.  Temenos.  Containment in a sacred
imaginal place.  I have come to have a sense of that here and
what it means to have it and not have it. I have to struggle with
these things as my secular upbringing and somewhat skeptical view
of the state, and a comprehension of the black place of marriage
in history and gender politics does not make it an easy step.  Of
course having been through it once does give me much more respect
for the power of it.  More than I expected the first time around.


The priest who is marrying us said:  This will change your
identity.  That was quite a shock, but he is right, and that is
why we are doing it after 10 years together... letting the power
of the tradition do its work on us. To let that happen i think we
will also need the strength to deal with the shadow side of
marriage.

I feel very good about it!  I could wish for no-one more
conscious of these sorts of things than Kate.

In addition to the interior side there is all the social, family
and festive stuff and that looks as if it will be a very joyous
time.

Your words fit Robert... especially with the acknowledgment of
the darker side and our myth creation process. Thanks.  Thanks to
you all who have sent your words!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:03:02 PST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         David Iulian <d_iulian@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re [P]: Romania
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi Nancy,

My surname is Duma, and the second is Iulian, like the roman emperor. If
in English is written with 'J'… I don't know. David was the name of my
grandfather. I like very much this name, and when I make my email I
wanted to name me David Iulian. You know, here we can feel a little like
creators (deus).
I meditate about my re-creation here in this dimension. I don't know… I
can be here better than in my real life? I can find here some defects
that I can't see in real life?
Cheryl said something about shadow talking about psyche in cyberspace.
What about a mirror? I look in the mirror = I see me. I see me? ( Well,
I think you know more about Herman Hesse than me.)
You can name me how do you want.

>I further I interpolate you to be saying that not all Romanians want to
leave Romania but that those that do, want to adapt to their new
culture. Yet it is sad that in so doing they also lose touch with their
own cultural roots.

I don't say 'all'. It was 'almost all'.
Imagine the disaster of my country: no future for young. The beginning
of the drug uses, the amplify of violence, unemployment, homeless,
poverty. This is my reality. Not of all romanians, but 'only' 80% (I
think). I have a family friend who is psychologist and I asked him about
the problem of young and adolescents here. In one word he said: you lost
the hope.
All (really all) of my friends want to go out of this place.

>Why can't we all be 'one world'?  Acceptant of one another, keeping our
heritage, and yet moving with the times?

Because of 2 thinks: the nationalism of our young humanity and money.

But Internet is a good school for understanding and tolerance between
people. I think is an outpost for the tomorrow world.

Iulian


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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1998 15:19:50 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         sc <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998103117415181@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy asks,

Any Jung scholars out there who want to enlighten us in simple sentences
using words of one syllybull?

Not a Jung scholar, not handy with monosillybulls (<-well, maybe the bull
part,) but might I at least start off with the *psyche* element?

Jung meant by Psyche the total human personality. Starting right off at the
very beginning of _The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche_ CW8,) he
states "The psyche, *as a reflection of the world and man*, is a thing of
such infinite complexity that it can be studied from a great many sides."
and shortly thereafter also states: "...psyche is the only phenomenon that
is given to us immediatly and, therefore, is the sine qua non of all
experience."

It is necessary to distinguish between psyche and Self. Whereas psyche is
the whole personality, Self is the most fundamental archetype of its
personal and transpersonal organization. (So it is the most basic mandala
representing psyche and self is the circle with a point at the center;
wholeness penetrated by the knowing center.)

***

We are transpersonally related to the world greater than our ego and
individuality, at the same time our experiencing of that greater world is
the means through which it is known.+ It may be said the structure of the
psyche implements a process equal to the task; that we may realize (be!)
who we really are*. (*Grandmother Alice O. Howell's pithy formula.)
Individuation is, paradoxically, time-bound, (is a matter of incarnation),
as well as the learning accomplished in-the-moment. Jung's understanding of
psyche makes clear that self-knowledge turns about the seemingly small
experiential and relational work of differentiation and integration of the
personality. As Jung knew, "it will give us trouble enough." For Jung,
self-knowledge (individuation), is not ordinarily the immediate and
mystical apprehension of unity but is, rather, the gritty daywork of the
opus.

***

I have two intuitions about psyche in cyberspace, which circle back to an
earlier comment.

One is this: our fulfillment comes about *today*, in the f2f world as well
as in cyberspace.
Two is: In cyberspace, and in the f2f world, we may choose to listen to
each other's music.

Is not part of psyche in cyberspace the interplay of all of our daily
fulfillments, and, our active listening to each other's music...here?

As I suggested before, we are all of music; the tendrils of this network
are energized, made soul-full by your music, as well as mine.

***

Stephen

+(Is this congruent with the knowing addition, "through which it is known
to itself"?)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:30:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Re [P]: Romania
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:03:02 PST, David Iulian  wrote:

>Hi Nancy,
>
>My surname is Duma, and the second is Iulian, like the roman emperor. If
>in English is written with 'J'=85 I don't know. David was the name of my
>grandfather. I like very much this name, and when I make my email I
>wanted to name me David Iulian. You know, here we can feel a little like
>creators (deus).

N:  (Then, if I may) Dear David,
   For this is one of my very favorite names and I feel a 'connection' to yo=
u
through this name, that I do not feel through 'Julian'.  I feel from you and=
 the
way you write, a very strong 'voice'.  (This is how we 'writers' call it whe=
n
a strong feeling of personality flows through the words).  For me (in regard=

to you) I 'head' a 'sadness' mixed with a strong sense of 'self' (Self!) whi=
ch
touches me deaply.  It is not dispair but more like the courageous
shouldering of some unavoidable 'cross'.  (As I feel we all must in some way=
)

>I meditate about my re-creation here in this dimension. I don't know=85 I
>can be here better than in my real life? I can find here some defects
>that I can't see in real life?
>Cheryl said something about shadow talking about psyche in cyberspace.
>What about a mirror? I look in the mirror =3D I see me. I see me? ( Well,
>I think you know more about Herman Hesse than me.)
>You can name me how do you want.

N:  Then, 'David'.  And I know a bit about C.G. Jung but next to nothing abo=
ut
Herman Hesse (except what fragment I learned through Charles'
references.)
>
>>I further I interpolate you to be saying that not all Romanians want to
>leave Romania but that those that do, want to adapt to their new
>culture. Yet it is sad that in so doing they also lose touch with their
>own cultural roots.
>
>I don't say 'all'. It was 'almost all'.
>Imagine the disaster of my country: no future for young. The beginning
>of the drug uses, the amplify of violence, unemployment, homeless,
>poverty. This is my reality. Not of all romanians, but 'only' 80% (I
>think). I have a family friend who is psychologist and I asked him about
>the problem of young and adolescents here. In one word he said: you lost
>the hope.
>All (really all) of my friends want to go out of this place.


>
>>Why can't we all be 'one world'?  Acceptant of one another, keeping our
>heritage, and yet moving with the times?

N: Ah.  Yes.  I understand.  You speak of the 'outer' world in which you
live.  I speak of the 'inner' world in which I chose to live.  Even here thi=
s
outer world exists (though perhaps less so than in Romania.)
>
>Because of 2 thinks: the nationalism of our young humanity and money.
>
>But Internet is a good school for understanding and tolerance between
>people. I think is an outpost for the tomorrow world.

N: Yes.  This is my optimistic hope.
>
>Iulian
>
If I could (via the Internet) I send you a 2 pound hamberger for that
inner wolf, which keeps you whole and helps you to survive with a 'free
spirit'.

Nancy
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:39:49 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Wedding
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, good friend:

You're as solid as a rock, and soft and sensitive withal.  Kate must be
pretty fantastic to be your partner in this amazing dance, and I wish the
pair of you every success.  What with upping and leaving my family to got
to Washington this week, I haven't had time to contribute to the booklet -
but hope this poem, in any case, will give you both an inkling of my
fondness and yes, blessings: it has been used once before in a ceremony of
the sort...



        It is a new thing, marriage,
        come trembling out of the mouths of earth
        wearing a dark mystery,
        come striding down from the clouds
        with lightning, rain, and slow thunder.
        It is a new thing, a majesty
        echoing old majesties, yet new.
        Sun and moon face each other, light
        reaches light, day and night
        mingle, the dream marries the life.

        May the rains moisten you.
        May your eyes propose lightning.
        May your bed roar thunder.
        May you be lost together in mystery.


Much love to you both, from myself, Annie, Emlyn, David.  Our hearts go
with you...


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
Senior Analyst / Designer, The Arlington Institute Y2K Project
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/rhomer/social.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:44:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Correx: Re: [P] Wedding
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hey --

...and by "Kate must be pretty fantastic" I don't just mean *fairly*
fantastic, I mean out and out pretty damn fantastic.  F antastic.  You get
me?

Best,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
Senior Analyst / Designer, The Arlington Institute Y2K Project
http://www.angelfire.com/ca/rhomer/social.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:00:43 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject:      royal couple
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,

(This may not arrive in tie to make your booklet.)

Greetings from Cyberia to the royal couple.

My own wedding day remains the most fun day I ever experienced. My wish is
that your own wedding day is the foundation for many such days. I hope one
day that I might sit out in the open space with you and your bride. New
Zealand would be a fine place for this to happen!

Marriage is the greatest relationship when it is fulfilled through
friendship, and so my wish is for you both to enjoy the fruits of the
friendship as your marriage deepens it, just as the marriage is deepened by
your friendship.

Even here in cyberia, the fact that you and Kate are friends comes through
clearly.

Congratulations and bright blessings to you both.

Stephen

==================================================================
Last night, full of longing, asking
the wine-woman for more, and then more.

She teased me so lovingly I fell
into her and disappeared. then
she was there alone.

Rumi, ra
==================================================================
HooN's Worlds of sound, soul and serendipity
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon

squareONE: experiential toolmakers
http://squareONE-learning.com
"If you have not lived through something, it is not true. [Kabir]

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 14 Nov 1998 22:30:01 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Walter and Kate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,

Have been bedridden and unable to use the computer this past week. Not sure
of the exact date of your and Kate's wedding, but if it's just happened
then I hope it was a wonderfully happy day for you both, you have been in
my thoughts, and my best wishes go out to the two of you for your shared
future. May your path through the years to come be lit by many sparkling
moments and memories.

wishing you all the best,

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1998 03:10:17 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Walter and Kate
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a0eb273af68c205@[195.200.10.106]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon, All,

It has happened!  It was a really good day and went just as planned only
better!  Thank you all for your wishes and thoughts.

We had 80+ guests, we had the ceremony by a river and under a tree, Kate
rode in on her horse, so it was spectacular on the outside, with flower
girls rose petals, music and so on.  On the inside, my experience as it
were, it was transforming ...  we had a proper Anglican priest, we had some
prayers and silence! & readings by Josh and Rebecca, who read the verses
Charles sent to us in Psyber-L, we said the vowes with the death to us part
bit included, both of us with tears streaming down our cheeks.

The food and speeches and so on were great, and the booklet, just right.
Thanks for all the contributions, I am happy to send one to anyone who
gives me their postal address.

Simon, I hope you are on the mend!  I was sick with a flu that looked very
ominous for a week before the wedding.  Two other mishaps:  My bag with
*everything* money, appointments, credit cards camera etc.  was stolen from
the car, on the day before the wedding, they smashed the side window to get
in.  My lap top mother board blew up with a puff of smoke! That was 2 days
before the wedding while I was still quite ill!  Never mind.  Right now I
feel great, and am here with Kate in our holiday house and i have a new
laptop, what a pleasure! (apart from taking ages to get back online).

> Have been bedridden and unable to use the computer this past week. Not sure
> of the exact date of your and Kate's wedding, but if it's just happened
> then I hope it was a wonderfully happy day for you both, you have been in
> my thoughts, and my best wishes go out to the two of you for your shared
> future. May your path through the years to come be lit by many sparkling
> moments and memories.
>
> wishing you all the best,


Thanks again,


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1998 00:08:14 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Walter and Kate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,
To you and Kate my best wishes for continued joy...I too was out of the
loop for awhile so missed contributing...the day sounds glorious...
Blessings,
Judith

>Simon, All,
>
>It has happened!  It was a really good day and went just as planned only
>better!  Thank you all for your wishes and thoughts.
>
>We had 80+ guests, we had the ceremony by a river and under a tree, Kate
>rode in on her horse, so it was spectacular on the outside, with flower
>girls rose petals, music and so on.  On the inside, my experience as it
>were, it was transforming ...  we had a proper Anglican priest, we had some
>prayers and silence! & readings by Josh and Rebecca, who read the verses
>Charles sent to us in Psyber-L, we said the vowes with the death to us part
>bit included, both of us with tears streaming down our cheeks.
>
>The food and speeches and so on were great, and the booklet, just right.
>Thanks for all the contributions, I am happy to send one to anyone who
>gives me their postal address.
>
>Simon, I hope you are on the mend!  I was sick with a flu that looked very
>ominous for a week before the wedding.  Two other mishaps:  My bag with
>*everything* money, appointments, credit cards camera etc.  was stolen from
>the car, on the day before the wedding, they smashed the side window to get
>in.  My lap top mother board blew up with a puff of smoke! That was 2 days
>before the wedding while I was still quite ill!  Never mind.  Right now I
>feel great, and am here with Kate in our holiday house and i have a new
>laptop, what a pleasure! (apart from taking ages to get back online).
>
>> Have been bedridden and unable to use the computer this past week. Not sure
>> of the exact date of your and Kate's wedding, but if it's just happened
>> then I hope it was a wonderfully happy day for you both, you have been in
>> my thoughts, and my best wishes go out to the two of you for your shared
>> future. May your path through the years to come be lit by many sparkling
>> moments and memories.
>>
>> wishing you all the best,
>
>
>Thanks again,
>
>
>Walter
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:10:24 EST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sheryl Garner <PumpknSoul@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter and Kate
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

How beautiful your day and ceremony must have been, Walter!  Especially in
contrast to the trials prior to your special event!

Best wishes to both you and Kate, and I wish that the love you share is always
seen and felt by you both, and by others who surround you!

Sheryl :)

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:54:35 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome Sarah
In-Reply-To:  <36505846.C57DDBF7@cnr.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sarah,

Welcome to Psyber-L  & may you find something here that will be of value to
you.  There is a wide range of discussion here, some of it personal and
some of it more in the nature of making sense of the psyche as we find it
here.  A good mixture of both can be expected.

you wrote:

> I am interested in joining psyber-l because of my enjoyment of psychology
> and  also because of my past and current psychological problems.  I am
> diagnosed as having a long-lasting (8 year) depression and have been
> diagnosed as having social phobia in the past.  I am in the process of
> finding a new psychiatrist who can really substantially help me with my
> problems and issues.  In the meantime, the discussion on this list would help
> me sustain interest in life and the like.

I can see that Psyber-L could be important for you.

You are the first person to join with this scheme whereby, as the listowner
/ host I welcome you to our midst.  I hope that by posting your words here
it will give people a chance respond to you and that you will feel more
included from the start.

Feel free to catch up a little from the archives, and perhaps search out
some of the words that interest you.

I hope you also got the Welcome File, with many details about Psyber-L.  It
needs updating!  One of the next jobs on my list.


Walter.
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:17:25 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Walter and Kate

Dear Walter and Kate,
   So glad to hear that the Great Day went off well and with meaning.
May each that follows bring you a richer, deeper, fuller knowledge of
 yourselves and one another.

  Eternal Blessings,

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:03:17 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Sarah

Hi Sarah,  I hope as you find answers to your depression (and/or how
to live effectively with it) thay you will share.
  Mine seem to be more seasonal, flickering on increasingly from mid-Aug.
and beginning to flicker away towards Feb. (tho each year I wonder if
it will, in truth, flicker away.)
  I rather like the myth of Demeter for it's seasonal connotations.

  Blessings,
  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:33:15 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Sarah
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Sarah,
Welcome...I can empathize...for the better part of my youth I was plagued
by depression...it has long left me...and I wish that for you.
Blessings,
Judith

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:36:02 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Sarah
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Sarah,

Welcome to this list. I have alot of emphathy for your situation - I've
suffered from depression at various times in my life and know that it can
be quite painful. One thing I've discovered is that my deprssion is
affected by how much social contact I have in my life - for me that means
real, live face to face interactions with people. Walter has indicated
previously his interest in doing therapy on-line. I am not a therapist
but I do have an opinion that such an "experiment" can be very dangerous
indeed. I urge you to find someone in your actual life who can help you.
If it wasn't clear to you in whatever Walter wrote on the home page this
list is in the nature of an experiment - a sort of "let's see what
happens" kind of thing. Walter is a clever fellow and consults with other
clever fellows but this is not a substitute for therapy if that's what
you need. At least in my opinion.

All the best to you -

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:02:42 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Therapy
In-Reply-To:  <365240A2.11C6@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl,

>  this is not a substitute for therapy if that's what
> you need. At least in my opinion.

I am with you all the way here Cheryl... this is not a therapy list.  The
thing I like about exploring the psyche here is that we do it outside of a
medical or health or healing context.

I think the word 'therapy' has its roots in sitting or chair.  That is how
I think of it anyway, sitting with the psyche.  We do a bit of that here in
the sense of attending, sitting with the psyche.

There is nothing we can do here though that replaces the sort of therapy  I
do in my rooms in my practice.  There is a 100 yr tradition of form and
content that comes to play in the 50min hour.

Psyber-L is totally different from that, and I would never run a "therapy"
group on line, as the word carries a sort of promise of healing or cure,
which I think is best not built into the expectations here.  I have in the
past done some individual paid work online, and may do it again some time.
I called it Personal Explorations, to keep the therapy promise out of it.
We can do other things online than what we do in Psyber-L.  For example
dream sharing, life story sharing, these things are still not "therapy" in
the way it is commonly understood, though it is sitting with the psyche.

All that said I would hope that Psyber-L can benefit us in our lives.  It
has had a profound effect in mine!

I am not sure how you are doing with these welcomes Sarah, and the sharing,
but I imagine if it were me I would like it!  I have had so much attention
in the last week it is abnormal, yet the warmth and wishes and blessings
here have been very good for me, thanks again.

~~~

My mother had "depression"  and millions of pills and a range of
psychiatrists.  I think it was my experience from being her son that led to
me being a professional in this field.  A need.

The main thing i have learnt is that depression is a parcel, that unwraps
and that different things come out for different people at different times.
For example... despair, oppression, loss of hope, fear, desolation,
loneliness, invisibility, guilt, self hate, irritability, seething anger,
resentment, buried rage... and in another corner of the box is:  heightened
perception, intuition, inner knowing, sensitivity...  I find that my moods
lift if i can discriminate exactly what is happening.

Despair of the existential kind is the one that can get me down.  In the
case of my mother it was the invisibility that led to a sense of loss of
belief in her own perceptions.  All of these things are easily called
depression, and they do go with the physical symptoms, yet the naming of
them gives some hope, and may lead to action.

~~~

This is not therapy... yet i hope that as we do the naming of the *moods*
here in this collective space, something of the ability to do that here,
will be of use.

All for now.


Walter














__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1998 01:30:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sarah Starr <sstarr@CNR.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Therapy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter Logeman wrote:

> Cheryl,
>
> >  this is not a substitute for therapy if that's what
> > you need. At least in my opinion.
>
> I am with you all the way here Cheryl... this is not a therapy list.  The
> thing I like about exploring the psyche here is that we do it outside of a
> medical or health or healing context.
>

oh, I realize that.  I am interested in this list because I am interested in
psychology....I know it's not therapy.  I was in therapy for 8 years.  A lot of
what you tell a therapist is nonverbal so you can't approximate therapy on the
internet  at all.  I hope to find a forum of interesting discussion about
psychology there--no more and no less.

sarah faye

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:04:24 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Therapy
In-Reply-To:  <3652698F.ACEC7FC2@cnr.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sarah,

> oh, I realize that.  I am interested in this list because I am interested in
> psychology....I know it's not therapy.  I was in therapy for 8 years.  A lot of
> what you tell a therapist is nonverbal so you can't approximate therapy on the
> internet  at all.  I hope to find a forum of interesting discussion about
> psychology there--no more and no less.

Was the therapy useful?  I have had a bit in my time, most ok, but all of
it seems to have a shadow side as well.  Do you have a sense of what sort
of psychology stuff you are attracted to... was there a specific modality
of therapy you had?

I look forward to more discussions... I also have a post half finished on a
thread that has been hanging in the air here...  psyche in cyberspace, that
might or might not be the sort of psychology you are interested in...


All for now,


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1998 18:56:39 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Sarah Starr <sstarr@CNR.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Therapy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Was the therapy useful?  I have had a bit in my time, most ok, but all of
> it seems to have a shadow side as well.  Do you have a sense of what sort
> of psychology stuff you are attracted to... was there a specific modality
> of therapy you had?

I am interested in anything relating to the psychology of the mentally ill.....my
therapist was not of any recognizable doctrine, but seemed to merely be a flakey
woman who listened well.  I like Freud and Jung, but they're a little too much to be
applied to most people.   Especially Jung....he's out there.  i love the idea of
archetypes though....so intriguing. I hate trait theory and behaviorism
though....people who want to be scientists or mathematicians should go do that
instead of trying to invade the mental health field.

sarah faye

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1998 23:58:27 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <363B4637.167E@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl, Nancy, Stephen, Janell, all,

I have been thinking about this thread and Psyber-L a lot but unable to get
to it again with work, wedding, illness, theft, computer hassles,
honeymoon!  I need a summary as I have not yet restored my files on this
machine.  So here it is gathered from the archives.

Cheryl began 31 Oct 1998:

> I was just thinking a little about this idea of psyche in csyberspace and
> I began to wonder - is it the same "psyche" as that which manifests f2f
> or is it a twin, a shadow, a holgram, a sibling, or clone psyche? I can't
> imagine that it would be "exactly the same" phenomena but that it would
> have a rather different energetic pattern. Does anyone understand what
> I'm getting at?

Janell responded:

Sat, 31 Oct 1998 17:12:01 -0500


> I understand what you mean, in fact initially that was one of the
> reasons that I was so slow to participate in some of the discussions. In my
> life (and work) I rely heavily on the non verbal and other cues that I pick
> up in f2f discussions that can't possibly be here in cyberspace, and
> therefore I was reluctant to take a risk and participate to any real depth.
> My feeling of comfort took a while to develop and after it did I was able
> to participate with some degree of comfort.

as did Nancy on 31 Oct

>  I bet there aren't any definitive answers, so let's puzzle together bit.
>
>  As I understand it psyche means soul (whatever the heck 'soul' means!)
>
>  If the 'eyes are the windows of the soul', then perhaps the monitor is the
>  window to some sort of Collective Soul out there in the world, or on
>  Psyber-L both the soul of each of us in this community as well as some
>  sort of Collective Soul of this particular community.
>
>  I guess that's where we start to touch on the Anima Munde (sp?) And
>  actually I'm not sure I want to touch on the Anima Munde, never having
>  gained great comfort with the concept (Mother Complex, wake up and get
>  conscious!)  But I guess maybe that may be what I refer to as a Collective
>  Soul.

>  Any Jung scholars out there who want to enlighten us in simple sentences
>  using words of one syllybull?

Stephen responded, Thu, 5 Nov:

> Not a Jung scholar, not handy with monosillybulls (<-well, maybe the bull
> part,) but might I at least start off with the *psyche* element?
>
> Jung meant by Psyche the total human personality. Starting right off at the
> very beginning of _The Structure and Dynamics of the Psyche_ CW8,) he
> states "The psyche, *as a reflection of the world and man*, is a thing of
> such infinite complexity that it can be studied from a great many sides."
> and shortly thereafter also states: "...psyche is the only phenomenon that
> is given to us immediatly and, therefore, is the sine qua non of all experience."
>
> It is necessary to distinguish between psyche and Self. Whereas psyche is
> the whole personality, Self is the most fundamental archetype of its
> personal and transpersonal organization. (So it is the most basic mandala
> representing psyche and self is the circle with a point at the center;
> wholeness penetrated by the knowing center.)
>
> ***
>
> We are transpersonally related to the world greater than our ego and
> individuality, at the same time our experiencing of that greater world is
> the means through which it is known.+ It may be said the structure of the
> psyche implements a process equal to the task; that we may realize (be!)
> who we really are*. (*Grandmother Alice O. Howell's pithy formula.)
> Individuation is, paradoxically, time-bound, (is a matter of incarnation),
> as well as the learning accomplished in-the-moment. Jung's understanding of
> psyche makes clear that self-knowledge turns about the seemingly small
> experiential and relational work of differentiation and integration of the
> personality. As Jung knew, "it will give us trouble enough." For Jung,
> self-knowledge (individuation), is not ordinarily the immediate and
> mystical apprehension of unity but is, rather, the gritty daywork of theopus.
>
> ***
>
> I have two intuitions about psyche in cyberspace, which circle back to an
> earlier comment.
>
> One is this: our fulfillment comes about *today*, in the f2f world as well
> as in cyberspace.
> Two is: In cyberspace, and in the f2f world, we may choose to listen to
> each other's music.
>
> Is not part of psyche in cyberspace the interplay of all of our daily
> fulfillments, and, our active listening to each other's music...here?
>
> As I suggested before, we are all of music; the tendrils of this network
> are energized, made soul-full by your music, as well as mine.
>
> ***


Nancy & I have also had an exchange about psychodrama and the Psyche & Eros
story, but that is a slightly different though related topic.


I will post this up, and continue the discussion later, at least I can see
it again!


Walter




__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1998 04:45:12 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <36575919.8062965@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All

Cheryl began 31 Oct 1998:

> I was just thinking a little about this idea of psyche in csyberspace and
> I began to wonder - is it the same "psyche" as that which manifests f2f
> or is it a twin, a shadow, a holgram, a sibling, or clone psyche? I can't
> imagine that it would be "exactly the same" phenomena but that it would
> have a rather different energetic pattern. Does anyone understand what
> I'm getting at?

I think the psyche is evolving rapidly because of the sort of thing we are
doing here.  But what is the psyche?  Stephen mentions Jung on the subject,
who refers to it as a total *reflection* of the human world.  That is how I
see it, as the way we see the world via some form of mirror or medium.  But
what is the mirror?

They are complex structures these mirrors to the psyche, creating it as
much as offering something given. Mirror is just one way of describing it,
sometimes we use window...

I love the way you bring in music Stephen. We are listening to the psyche
mirrored via music, dance, words, images... and what are these things?
Ways we can bring our imagination out into the open.  "Our" imagination or
is it the images and ideas that get us, that use us to flow on through?
Tuning into the psyche often means getting our ego out of the way.

I am thinking of the chanting and dancing that in our tribal origins might
have made sense of the hunt and war birth and death.  The rhythm and herbs
and drink induced altered stated and trance... a window / mirror to the
soul and impossible to say what is flowing in and what is flowing out.

Writing, all forms of it really, allows us to express and allows us to let
the muses come on in.  And just like dance and music, there is the
participation as well as performance aspect.  The novel for example is an
expression of the imagination via the novelist, and is then interpreted via
the imagination of the many readers, psyche being created / revealed at
each turn. Robertson Davies (Canadian novelist) wrote in his diary after
receiving the Medal of Honor for Literature by the National Arts Club of
NY:

"... our Consul General who spoke admirably, briefly, and in terms that
made me blush: said I was doing what Joyce had done- "Forging in the smithy
of my soul the uncreated conscience of my race." - very flattering - but I
think it is true."

That phrase captures the essence of the forging of inner and outer that
makes psyche.  Life as it were is mediated via art, people

With the invention of psychotherapy (another art) we have a form of music
and dance.  An intense & formal duet, with a very prescribed flow of
psychological material.  The therapist has a legion of *words* to describe
the ordinary flow of life: complexes, myths, diagnosis, archetypes,
behaviour patterns and traits (even, <grin>).  In addition to that the
dance includes both of the participants and they ate visited by a process
as much as making one.

Janell, you wrote:

> In my
> life (and work) I rely heavily on the non verbal and other cues that I pick
> up in f2f discussions that can't possibly be here in cyberspace, and
> therefore I was reluctant to take a risk and participate to any real depth.
> My feeling of comfort took a while to develop and after it did I was able
> to participate with some degree of comfort.

I think the very absence of some things here (such as the physical body)
and the *presence* of other things, such as the concentrated humanity in
the posts, which may have taken hours to write, and can be read in minutes,
means we are doing something new, which in itself might be scary.  In the
mix of outer and inner that makes up *experience* there is such a mix here
that is not the same as the one we have f2f.  For example I have a fairly
accurate insight about your feelings from what you write... a move from
reluctance to comfort, a move in your inner process, not confused (to me)
by how you might look.  I might be inclined to project all sorts of things
onto you from your looks.  Here in cyberspace I also project -- I even have
an image of you, but I know more easily that my projection comes from my
imagination...

Not the whole story though... my images here of what is happening in
Psyber-L (as in rl) is not *only* from my imagination.  I know for example
that you Janell have a granddaughter.  That tells me something, though I
could easily jump to all sorts of wrong conclusions as well, which would
say more about me than you.  There is a different mix of imagination and
outer reality.

Dreams simply do not care for the outer world, even when it enters into the
dream it is as symbol, expression of images for the psyche to use.  Sleep
is a trance we need for the psyche to come through clearly.

The new media mediates the psyche in a way that we have a new window on
her, a new place to forge here, a new mirror... to throw a mix of metaphors
at the unnameable.

Which means I am saying a Yes to what you say Nancy on 31 Oct:

>  If the 'eyes are the windows of the soul', then perhaps the monitor is the
>  window to some sort of Collective Soul out there in the world, or on
>  Psyber-L both the soul of each of us in this community as well as some
>  sort of Collective Soul of this particular community.

I have a sense of the writing we do here being quite unlike novels or
poems, simply because it is so interactive, we are right in here... much
like the dancers in the dance, musicians in the band.  There is no audience
(not since the archives were closed anyway <grin>) and we work away... as
Stephen put it:

> As Jung knew, "it will give us trouble enough." For Jung,
> self-knowledge (individuation), is not ordinarily the immediate and
> mystical apprehension of unity but is, rather, the gritty daywork of the opus.


All for now,


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:35:47 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter, all

What a brillant and inspired post you just presented us with - thank you
- I am moved in some strange way - maybe you should honeymoon more often!
Even though this post may have taken some time to write, you seem to be
flowing in it so like the intangible, ungraspable psyche itself. When I
asked if the psyche here was twin, clone, shadow, etc, I forgot about
mirror. It was Iulian who responded to my inquiry with a suggestion of
mirror and of course he, and you here, are quite accurate I think. I also
think that projections are easier to sort out in cyberspace quite
possibly because, simply put, there is more space.

About twelev or so years ago a Tibetan lama told me that I needed to have
more space between me and what happens to me. In the intervening years
that has come about and a result has been an ability to see more clearly
not only my own inner process but what is "someone else" while also
"being me". Space, that mysterious element, has something to do with
that. Lots of space.  And what is the "net" but lots of space - ???

I need to re-read your post Walter - there's alot there - probably in the
morning.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:42:52 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <36550DC3.6691@coinet.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cheryl,

Thanks for your warm & enthusiastic response.

> It was Iulian who responded to my inquiry with a suggestion of
> mirror and of course he, and you here, are quite accurate I think.

I can't find the post where Iulian mentions that, does any one have a
reference to that?

> About twelev or so years ago a Tibetan lama told me that I needed to have
> more space between me and what happens to me.

In one of my therapies <grin>, I asked the therapist why we were not
looking towards some outcome, was there a direction.  Oh no he said we
would not want to interfere with what happens, lets both just watch what
arises in the room. Since then i have had a sense of allowing the psyche to
simply arise, to be there, quite separately from me.  (Pity the therapy
went sour later... I guess that was that aspect of the psyche arising...
have not seen it like that before.  The betrayal and exploitation
aspects... damn!


> In the intervening years
> that has come about and a result has been an ability to see more clearly
> not only my own inner process but what is "someone else" while also
> "being me". Space, that mysterious element, has something to do with
> that. Lots of space.  And what is the "net" but lots of space - ???


Yes.  This net is such a strange thing.  I have a sense of space right now
as I write.  I can wait as long as I like, edit, reflect.  And you Cheryl
are somewhere in a new mysterious rural place... I simply have Hollywood
images... like Montana out of the Horse Whisperer... though i know you are
somewhere else... Oregon.  What I see is total projection... a space for me
to see what is in my head.  Yet...

I feel close.  I have a poem sent by you in our little anthology, we have
been through some things here together... shared stories about our cats...
(our dog just raided the pantry and ate a cake! Naughty! He is not usually
like that.)  I know your move to Oregon is also an inner journey.  One push
of a button and this post is sitting on your ISP's disks ready to download.
Close.

McLuhan 1965:

"There are no remote places.  Under instant circuitry nothing is remote in
time or in space.  It is now."


McLuhan 1966, (quoted in Psyber-L before):

"We now know too much to be strangers to each other.  For example in the
age of information explosion, all walls go out between age groups,
between family groups, national groups, between economies.  The walls
all go out.  People suddenly have to adjust themselves to this new
proximity, this new interrelationship, and merely to tell them this has
happened isn't very helpful.  What they need to know is, if it is
happening, what does it mean to me?"


All that sits wonderfully paradoxically with your lines:

> I also think that projections are easier to sort out in cyberspace quite
> possibly because, simply put, there is more space.

> And what is the "net" but lots of space - ???


~~~


Thinking about the proximity and space notion, and adjusting to it makes me
think of the way Psyber-L has changed its doorways and windows.

May be it is that i am on my honeymoon,  but it seems that I have changed
the doorways and windows on my relationship, in much the way that they have
changed here...



Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1998 20:05:39 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Janell F. Adair" <jfadair9@PHILLY.INFI.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <3654ee60.12556270@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter:

    Your comments about what I wrote are intriguing. I initially found the
switch from the *real* world of f2f communications to the cyberspace
communication mode as a little unsettling,  because my clues of what was
going on with the other person where not there for me to see. I believe
that I'm becoming comfortable with this change but it did take me some time
and effort.

  I did want to add my congratulations to what others had said concerning
your recent wedding to Kate, but I held back because I felt that others
were saying it much more eloquently than I could. But, please accept my
heartfelt congratulations at this time as you enter this new state and
role. It sounds like you're very happy and for that I'm glad.

  Congratulations!!!

   Janell


At 04:45 AM 11/20/98 GMT, you wrote:
>All
>
>Cheryl began 31 Oct 1998:
>
>> I was just thinking a little about this idea of psyche in csyberspace and
>> I began to wonder - is it the same "psyche" as that which manifests f2f
>> or is it a twin, a shadow, a holgram, a sibling, or clone psyche? I can't
>> imagine that it would be "exactly the same" phenomena but that it would
>> have a rather different energetic pattern. Does anyone understand what
>> I'm getting at?
>
>I think the psyche is evolving rapidly because of the sort of thing we are
>doing here.  But what is the psyche?  Stephen mentions Jung on the subject,
>who refers to it as a total *reflection* of the human world.  That is how I
>see it, as the way we see the world via some form of mirror or medium.  But
>what is the mirror?
>
>They are complex structures these mirrors to the psyche, creating it as
>much as offering something given. Mirror is just one way of describing it,
>sometimes we use window...
>
>I love the way you bring in music Stephen. We are listening to the psyche
>mirrored via music, dance, words, images... and what are these things?
>Ways we can bring our imagination out into the open.  "Our" imagination or
>is it the images and ideas that get us, that use us to flow on through?
>Tuning into the psyche often means getting our ego out of the way.
>
>I am thinking of the chanting and dancing that in our tribal origins might
>have made sense of the hunt and war birth and death.  The rhythm and herbs
>and drink induced altered stated and trance... a window / mirror to the
>soul and impossible to say what is flowing in and what is flowing out.
>
>Writing, all forms of it really, allows us to express and allows us to let
>the muses come on in.  And just like dance and music, there is the
>participation as well as performance aspect.  The novel for example is an
>expression of the imagination via the novelist, and is then interpreted via
>the imagination of the many readers, psyche being created / revealed at
>each turn. Robertson Davies (Canadian novelist) wrote in his diary after
>receiving the Medal of Honor for Literature by the National Arts Club of
>NY:
>
>"... our Consul General who spoke admirably, briefly, and in terms that
>made me blush: said I was doing what Joyce had done- "Forging in the smithy
>of my soul the uncreated conscience of my race." - very flattering - but I
>think it is true."
>
>That phrase captures the essence of the forging of inner and outer that
>makes psyche.  Life as it were is mediated via art, people
>
>With the invention of psychotherapy (another art) we have a form of music
>and dance.  An intense & formal duet, with a very prescribed flow of
>psychological material.  The therapist has a legion of *words* to describe
>the ordinary flow of life: complexes, myths, diagnosis, archetypes,
>behaviour patterns and traits (even, <grin>).  In addition to that the
>dance includes both of the participants and they ate visited by a process
>as much as making one.
>
>Janell, you wrote:
>
>> In my
>> life (and work) I rely heavily on the non verbal and other cues that I pick
>> up in f2f discussions that can't possibly be here in cyberspace, and
>> therefore I was reluctant to take a risk and participate to any real depth.
>> My feeling of comfort took a while to develop and after it did I was able
>> to participate with some degree of comfort.
>
>I think the very absence of some things here (such as the physical body)
>and the *presence* of other things, such as the concentrated humanity in
>the posts, which may have taken hours to write, and can be read in minutes,
>means we are doing something new, which in itself might be scary.  In the
>mix of outer and inner that makes up *experience* there is such a mix here
>that is not the same as the one we have f2f.  For example I have a fairly
>accurate insight about your feelings from what you write... a move from
>reluctance to comfort, a move in your inner process, not confused (to me)
>by how you might look.  I might be inclined to project all sorts of things
>onto you from your looks.  Here in cyberspace I also project -- I even have
>an image of you, but I know more easily that my projection comes from my
>imagination...
>
>Not the whole story though... my images here of what is happening in
>Psyber-L (as in rl) is not *only* from my imagination.  I know for example
>that you Janell have a granddaughter.  That tells me something, though I
>could easily jump to all sorts of wrong conclusions as well, which would
>say more about me than you.  There is a different mix of imagination and
>outer reality.
>
>Dreams simply do not care for the outer world, even when it enters into the
>dream it is as symbol, expression of images for the psyche to use.  Sleep
>is a trance we need for the psyche to come through clearly.
>
>The new media mediates the psyche in a way that we have a new window on
>her, a new place to forge here, a new mirror... to throw a mix of metaphors
>at the unnameable.
>
>Which means I am saying a Yes to what you say Nancy on 31 Oct:
>
>>  If the 'eyes are the windows of the soul', then perhaps the monitor is the
>>  window to some sort of Collective Soul out there in the world, or on
>>  Psyber-L both the soul of each of us in this community as well as some
>>  sort of Collective Soul of this particular community.
>
>I have a sense of the writing we do here being quite unlike novels or
>poems, simply because it is so interactive, we are right in here... much
>like the dancers in the dance, musicians in the band.  There is no audience
>(not since the archives were closed anyway <grin>) and we work away... as
>Stephen put it:
>
>> As Jung knew, "it will give us trouble enough." For Jung,
>> self-knowledge (individuation), is not ordinarily the immediate and
>> mystical apprehension of unity but is, rather, the gritty daywork of the
opus.
>
>
>All for now,
>
>
>Walter
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:42:04 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

Iulian mentioned the mirror in response to my inquiry in his post of
11/05/98 Re: Romania. I am not skilled in using quotes so I must ask you
to look it up from your side - sorry about that.

BTW, Oregon is much more populated than Montana but much less than where
I moved from. I moved from a metropolitan area of @ 3 million to a
metropolitan area (if you can call it that here) of @ 50,000. Big
difference. I really noticed it tonight - this was my first Friday night
drive home from work - in the past it could take me up to 2 hrs. to drive
home on a crowded Friday night. It took less than ten minutes tonight. In
fact, I'd still be in traffic right now instead of writing this email. I
can't tell you what that means to me. What a relief sort of thing. I
haven't seen the Horse Whisperer so I can't comment on that.

I like all your images and quotes recently Walter - they are inspiring -
keep 'em coming (no honeymoon pun intended!)

I did want to make a commnet about your response to the Tibetan lama's
statement. He was not prescribing or suggesting a direction - it was
simply an observational comment on what was needed. He never suggested
that I 'do" anything in particular with respect to that; however, the
noted need became a result "seemingly' of its own accord over time. With
respect to my own inner work I tend to be very careful re: processes
which need to transform balanced with simply watching what arises as a
means of that transformation. I am a true believer that "the seeing is
the movement" rather than any prescriptions or fabricated means. That
coupled with the basic intention towards transformation in the first
place.

Enough for now,

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 11:36:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Psyber-L Files and Web Page
Comments: cc: Group-L Noosphere Probes <group-l@lists.groupsense.co.nz>
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998110109280139@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All,

I have been reviewing files associated with Psyber-L.  Please test some of
these things and let me know what you find. Soon I will announce the
changes in Psyber-L settings on the net, that may lead to more interest,
and I'd like it all to look good and work well.

The following files have had updates:


= Psyber-L Web page =

 http://psybernet.co.nz/psyber-l.htm



= Psyber-L Description =

The file which has a full description of Psyber-L and all the info.  New
subscribers are asked to check this one out.

 http://psybernet.co.nz/pl_descript.txt

Accessible by email to the listserver:

 LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

GET Psyber-L Descript



= The Short Description =

Used for informing people about Psyber-L and posting to other lists etc.
Available by email to the listserver:

INFO Psyber-L



= Welcome File =

The file people get upon joining.

http://psybernet.co.nz/pl_welcome.txt

Also available via the listserver:

GET Psyber-L Welcome



= Initial Response to Subscription =

This is the post which asks new subscribers to check out the Description
and post an email to the listowner. Note that this has some codes which the
listserver translates before it is sent.  Check it out at:

 http://psybernet.co.nz/addreq1.txt



Please have a look at these files and send comments to me or to the list.
Anything from typos or missing info to the meaning & purpose of it all is
worth raising.


Thanks,


Walter












__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 08:17:22 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L files and Web Page
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter, all

I checked out the files you suggested and have a question. In the
description it says that "Psyber-L is a starting point for depth
psychological work on the net, exploring and defining its directions."

What does this mean, Walter? Especially the part that the says " starting
point for depth psychological work".  Depth is that word that
bothers me somewhat here because depth work is, well, somewhat
risky, perhaps even dangerous, and especially at a distance, non-f2f.
Here's where I'm coming from -

I see "depth' work like surgery - if you start, you must finish because
the starting point is the incision. Is it something you can engage in
ethically as an experiment? I work in the medical field and I've worked
in research (although not at the moment) I've seen desparate people. I've
also been "used" as an experiemnt without my knowledge or consent and had
it go terribly bad - horribly bad - so much so that I wonder if aspects
of my psyche will ever recover. I've been there so I'm quite sensitive to
this sort of issue. Depth work on the net - sounds wonderful but ask the
wounded people of new and exciting experiments how they feel. I think
that you are an ethical and sound person Walter; however I still don't
have alot of trust in the list as a whole or the experiemntal nature of
this enterprise. I participate but very cautiously. The process - well, I
know I have trust issues and rightly so. I have been betrayed before in
ways that I still can hardly fathom. I'm still here but at a great
personal price.  I have had to learn to protect myself better - I have
had to learn that it's NECESSARY  to protect oneself - it's a sad but
true aspect of life - even as I write this I grieve - so each person has
to take responsibility for his or her own "depth" work and still...and
still...

Cheryl
lying open on the surgery table

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:15:43 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Web Page

Dear Walter,
  I've taken a look at the new introductory material.  It was a little
hasty because of problems I'm having with being disconnected.
  Generally it looked ok to me with one reservation.  I question the
contextual use of the word 'media' in the Purpose statement.  To me it
read as if you meant our focus was on cyberspace itself.  Somehow 'psyche'
doesn't seem like a media to me.  I'd feel for constructive if I could
suggest a possible rewording.  Maybe later.
  Oh, and one other thing: I find the light black print difficult to read
against the yellow-orange background.  This is partly because of my particular
vision problems, but just thought I'd make mention.
  Otherwise, so far, so good.

  Respectfully,

  Nancy

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:29:29 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L files and Web Page

Dear Cheryl, Walter, All,

  Cheryl, I can see this is a valid concern to you.  Oddly I feel safer
in cyberspace than in a closed office with one unsupervised therapist.
  Psycher-L itself is so much safer, it seems to me, than many of the
groups on can get into on the net.  (And I'm no authority on the latter,
because I avoid the really chancy looking ones in your so well stated need
for self protection.)
  The entire net is still something of an experiment.  I'm wondering
how you might feel the Psyber-L proposals might be approached more safely.
I haven't found chat groups very interesting.

  Nancy
  Wishing it was a 'kinder' world.

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:44:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Well-come: Simon

Hi Simon,
  Just wanted  to check in with you.  The last you posted you were sick
and I'm hoping you are better?

  Nancy
  Feeling concerned

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:28:22 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Psyber-L Files and Web ...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

I don't know much about other groups on the web - I have only ever been
on one other list and the topic was so different that safety really
wasn't much of a concern. The therapists I've had in "closed rooms", as
you mention, weren't particularly unsafe - they were not not worth what I
was paying them, ie, ineffective. It is more the so-called therapeutic
"group" phenomenon  that I am so wary of - and this includes, maybe
especially includes, "spiritual" groups, "healing" centers, even, sorry
to say, so-called "dharma" groups. Deluded groups lead by deluded leaders
are one of the most dangerous forces on the planet. That what Germany was
during WWII - actually, that may be what any war situation is - a deluded
group being led by a deluded leader.

I have to work through my own trust issues - try to slowly rebuild what
has been damaged, etc etc. Things take time - I am more interested in
re-forming myself than re-forming Psyber-L - although I appreciate what
Walter is doing here. Windows and doors...funny he mentioned that. I've
just bought a hosue and I'm replacing all the windows execpt one and want
to replace the front door, too. I have all sorts of windows and doors
brochures on my table.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:44:45 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Well-come: Simon
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998112110445495@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,

Thanks for your concern. I have been a bit in the wars lately. Am just
about to head off for a couple or so days, so I'll find out how I bear up
'out there'.

Thanks again,

Simon

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 13:52:55 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Well-come: Simon

On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:44:45 +0000, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>Thanks for your concern. I have been a bit in the wars lately. Am just
>about to head off for a couple or so days, so I'll find out how I bear up
>'out there'.
>
>Thanks again,
>
>Simon
>
Well, I am glad to hear from you.  I guess if you wanted us to know about
'the wars', you'd tell us (or me)
  I'm not too thrilled with 'out there' myself, so I certainly wish you
luck.
  For now it'e just good to know you're alive and 'typing',

  Nancy
  (Reassured and not wanting to be invasive.)

>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:16:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Web ...

On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:28:22 -0800, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>I don't know much about other groups on the web - I have only ever been
>on one other list and the topic was so different that safety really
>wasn't much of a concern. The therapists I've had in "closed rooms", as
>you mention, weren't particularly unsafe - they were not not worth what I
>was paying them, ie, ineffective.

N: Yes.  This brings up a lot of interesting issue.  Wasn't there a study
that concluded that the same number of people 'healed' out of therapy as
in it?  Of course I don't know how sound the study was.
  I guess the 'unsafe' part brings up a personal issue for me.  All the
unresolved, negative or hurtful or untherapeudic thing every therapist
has ever said to me has stayed with me like glue.  While I tend to think
of the positive things they've said as 'just being therapeudic for pay.'
So obvioously I have some trust issues of my own.  (Though I did think it
a bit much that I could hear my first analyst [not Jungian] snoring in
his chair behind the couch.  He assured me, however, that he would wake
up if I said anything important.  I guess that's why they're called head
shrinkers?]

 It is more the so-called therapeutic
>"group" phenomenon  that I am so wary of - and this includes, maybe
>especially includes, "spiritual" groups, "healing" centers, even, sorry
>to say, so-called "dharma" groups. Deluded groups lead by deluded leaders
>are one of the most dangerous forces on the planet. That what Germany was
>during WWII - actually, that may be what any war situation is - a deluded
>group being led by a deluded leader.

N: Unfortunately we are all 'deluded' in some ways.  It's hard to separate
the healing from the unhealing.  And sometimes there just seems to be too
little of the latter.  I was talking to a friend this week about the advice
so often given to people who are depressed, i.e. don't isolate yourself.
Yet the fact seems to be the others tend to isolate you when you are depressed.
It's understandable (most of us don't want to be around ourselves when
we're depressed!) Just not helpful.
>
>I have to work through my own trust issues - try to slowly rebuild what
>has been damaged, etc etc. Things take time - I am more interested in
>re-forming myself than re-forming Psyber-L - although I appreciate what
>Walter is doing here.

N: Psyber-L has come to mean a lot to me.  I guess I was afraid Walter might
make some change that would make it less meaningful.  Fortunately, that
doesn't seem to be the case.

Windows and doors...funny he mentioned that. I've
>just bought a hosue and I'm replacing all the windows execpt one and want
>to replace the front door, too. I have all sorts of windows and doors
>brochures on my table.
>
>Cheryl

N: It sounds lovely.  I've always though Oregon would be a nice place to
live. though the main thing I remember from my  one visit was the sea lion
herds basking on the rocks off the coast.

Nancy
Hoping your healing goes well in your new home.
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:25:02 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber Files, etc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

Do you really mean that ALL "the unresolved, negative or hurtful,
untherapeutic things EVERY therapiit has EVER said to (you) has stayed
with (you) like glue?" Obviously, the bold letters I've added for
emphasis - if Netscape would allow italics, I'd rather have used them.
Still, that seems like a bit of an overstatement - although I get the
point - or maybe I don't.

I agree that everyone is suceptible to delusion although some situations
are worse than others. My first therapist wwas really the best - he
taught be to USE my awareness by "being aware" when I didn't know such a
thing was possible. He used to say over and over again, "What are you
aware of?" Endlessly. For many years I could still hear his voice - but
he taught be a very basic and as it turns out, profound, skill. I was
nineteen at the time and that was almost 30 years ago.

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:02:33 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber Files, etc

On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 14:25:02 -0800, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>Do you really mean that ALL "the unresolved, negative or hurtful,
>untherapeutic things EVERY therapiit has EVER said to (you) has stayed
>with (you) like glue?" Obviously, the bold letters I've added for
>emphasis - if Netscape would allow italics, I'd rather have used them.
>Still, that seems like a bit of an overstatement - although I get the
>point - or maybe I don't.

N:  Good point, Cheryl.  In reading the way it looked in your post I thought,
'Wow.  Did I really say that?  All, every, never type words are often
referred to as animus.  I had to go back and look at my post.  It's still
an overstatement, if only because my memory isn't that good, but what I
meant was that 'the negative, hurtful and untherapeutic thing that therapists
had said to me Which Remained UNresolved (yup.  Need italics) come back
to me particularly when I'm feeling down.  I haven't found it easy to
resolve such issues with therapist.  Unfortunatedly they seem to have that
old human quality of not wanting to admit they have made any error.  My last
, a Jungian Analyst was by far the best about it and we were able to talk
about the 'trying to be right rather than related'  that the Malone's
(father and son) write about in their book The Art of Intimacy.
  Also by then I had probably gotten better at help the Gorgon's knot not
to be pulled so tight.
  Is there a better way to punctuate the string so the it's clearer that
'unresolved' modifies the three following it?
>
>I agree that everyone is suceptible to delusion although some situations
>are worse than others. My first therapist wwas really the best - he
>taught be to USE my awareness by "being aware" when I didn't know such a
>thing was possible. He used to say over and over again, "What are you
>aware of?" Endlessly. For many years I could still hear his voice - but
>he taught be a very basic and as it turns out, profound, skill. I was
>nineteen at the time and that was almost 30 years ago.

N: I can certainly see how a lot of people would have benefited had I
learned that trick (if I understand what you're saying) as early as 19!

Best,

Nancy
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:29:18 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L files and Web Page
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,
A thot that came up from your post...and I offer this respectfully
<snip>

 The process - well, I
>know I have trust issues and rightly so. I have been betrayed before in
>ways that I still can hardly fathom. I'm still here but at a great
>personal price.  I have had to learn to protect myself better - I have
>had to learn that it's NECESSARY  to protect oneself - it's a sad but
>true aspect of life - even as I write this I grieve - so each person has
>to take responsibility for his or her own "depth" work and still...and
>still...

I've had a 2 year bout with a health crisis which has left me with a
seriously depressed immune system...from a metaphoric point of view, the
immune system protects one's body from invasion and is "necessary" for good
health...the universe is opportunistic (organically speaking) so it is
important to be aware of this from my perspective and for me to do what I
can to assist my immune system by focusing on my health...

I'm wondering what it is that brings you to sadness about protecting
oneself...I find alot of people around me grieving these days and I'm
looking to find a way into understanding...thanks

Judith
wondering


>Cheryl
>lying open on the surgery table
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:43:52 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Web ...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,



>On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:28:22 -0800, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:
>
>>Nancy,
>>
>>I don't know much about other groups on the web - I have only ever been
>>on one other list and the topic was so different that safety really
>>wasn't much of a concern. The therapists I've had in "closed rooms", as
>>you mention, weren't particularly unsafe - they were not not worth what I
>>was paying them, ie, ineffective.
>
>N: Yes.  This brings up a lot of interesting issue.  Wasn't there a study
>that concluded that the same number of people 'healed' out of therapy as
>in it?  Of course I don't know how sound the study was.

One of the studies I know about is the one that the book Focusing was based
on...at the U of Chicago the psychology dept listened to thousands of hours
of tapes looking to document the success of psychological process...what
they found was that in the first 15 minutes of the first session they could
predict who was going to merely come out with coping skills and those who
really transformed...the conclusion of the study (much to their dismay I
might add) was that the people who transformed had a personal process they
were connected to and were able to use the sessions in service of their own
process which they evoked...the others didn't seem to tap into this...My
own experience at 20 was a doctor saying "you can take these pills for the
rest of your life or you can figure it out for yourself"...what that did
was give me my own authority instead of looking outside...and I did in fact
figure it out for myself...which said to me that we all have access to the
universal knowledge and can evoke it...this has been what my lifetime of
service has been about and I cringe when I hear the hurt which the
psychological profession has perpetrated in instances like yours...I also
get pretty p....off at the damage that is done in the name of "helping" by
well intentioned people who don't have a clue...well, there is my prejudice
spewing out...excuse me for my outburst :-)

Judith, wishing you sunlight
off to closing night



>  I guess the 'unsafe' part brings up a personal issue for me.  All the
>unresolved, negative or hurtful or untherapeudic thing every therapist
>has ever said to me has stayed with me like glue.  While I tend to think
>of the positive things they've said as 'just being therapeudic for pay.'
>So obvioously I have some trust issues of my own.  (Though I did think it
>a bit much that I could hear my first analyst [not Jungian] snoring in
>his chair behind the couch.  He assured me, however, that he would wake
>up if I said anything important.  I guess that's why they're called head
>shrinkers?]
>
> It is more the so-called therapeutic
>>"group" phenomenon  that I am so wary of - and this includes, maybe
>>especially includes, "spiritual" groups, "healing" centers, even, sorry
>>to say, so-called "dharma" groups. Deluded groups lead by deluded leaders
>>are one of the most dangerous forces on the planet. That what Germany was
>>during WWII - actually, that may be what any war situation is - a deluded
>>group being led by a deluded leader.
>
>N: Unfortunately we are all 'deluded' in some ways.  It's hard to separate
>the healing from the unhealing.  And sometimes there just seems to be too
>little of the latter.  I was talking to a friend this week about the advice
>so often given to people who are depressed, i.e. don't isolate yourself.
>Yet the fact seems to be the others tend to isolate you when you are depressed.
>It's understandable (most of us don't want to be around ourselves when
>we're depressed!) Just not helpful.
>>
>>I have to work through my own trust issues - try to slowly rebuild what
>>has been damaged, etc etc. Things take time - I am more interested in
>>re-forming myself than re-forming Psyber-L - although I appreciate what
>>Walter is doing here.
>
>N: Psyber-L has come to mean a lot to me.  I guess I was afraid Walter might
>make some change that would make it less meaningful.  Fortunately, that
>doesn't seem to be the case.
>
>Windows and doors...funny he mentioned that. I've
>>just bought a hosue and I'm replacing all the windows execpt one and want
>>to replace the front door, too. I have all sorts of windows and doors
>>brochures on my table.
>>
>>Cheryl
>
>N: It sounds lovely.  I've always though Oregon would be a nice place to
>live. though the main thing I remember from my  one visit was the sea lion
>herds basking on the rocks off the coast.
>
>Nancy
>Hoping your healing goes well in your new home.
>>
>>____________________________________________________________
>>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>>
>>
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:09:22 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Protection
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith,

I'm thinking about what you wrote re: the universe being opportunistic,
organically speaking. I hadn't thought about it that way before. Are you
reconciled to this given your health situation? Does thinking about it
like that help you reconcile your health siutation, as in, "well, that's
the way the world is and I just need extra protection becuae I am less
able to defend myself?"

I think people grieve as a part of the process of restoring the psyche. I
grieve because I've had an unusually painful last ten years and a
psychologically terrible childhood. These are things that I don't wish to
discuss here - I don't think it's an appropriate forum. Nonetheless, from
time to time, it is a part of my process and my internal state. Alot of
talk about therapists today - a therapist once told me that we don't
grieve until we are strong enough to do so. So I see it positively.
Sometimes it's not so much what happens to us but how we use it - I try
to use everything that happens to me as something for tansformation. That
dosn't always happen right away and it's not always my first response but
it is nevertheless, my intention.

Thank you for your question and interest.

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1998 13:41:00 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Four Post Wonder <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace.
In-Reply-To:  <3654ee60.12556270@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

okay so one arkytype I like on here is the short four poster

please lie back.

I'm relaxed.

because i know that I can trust youze lot.
and if i haven't posted much  here, over the *years*,
i still learn how psyber-l has a nature
and how that nature is kind.

so i figure, i figure, you lot probably won't mind me
being a little bit rude and just writing
any old garbage that comes into my head, like,
on the subject , perhaps without it necessearily making
a whole heap of sense

but in bits, mind, And i'll try and stay in the conversation.

I'm holding in mind Walters
< 23:58 18/11/98 GMT, Walter Logeman wrote -post>

so i think this is gonna be about psyche.. but we'll see.

--------------------
four post wonder
miles@mail.com
---------------------

---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
                ( miles )

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1998 13:41:12 +1300
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Miles Four Post Wonder <miles@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in cyberspace..
In-Reply-To:  <3654ee60.12556270@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

four post 2.

im at an abandoned outpost of the last remants
of the human federation. the zen'ckathy are closing in,
and it doesn't look like i'm gonna make it, but i've decided to spend my
last few seconds posting my impressions to globalpeoplenet <click here>
i just want you all to know that i *still* believe,
that its only this cross-cultural cross-border interconnected
conversation that makes this federation, this rebel alliance,
worthy of my continued belief, and worthy of a
continued existance in the galaxy

attend.

archytype a - alien species 'zen'ckathy' in the above
         1. beings from another planet
        2. utterly differernt, and utterly evil beings
opposed to all that is humanity. 'Aliens' a
somtime great movie and achetype of which
can sometimes definine a great belief in future
and hope for unity of humankind, but yet a dangerous
archetype which carries a poweful shadow side kick -
' alienationism'* [see below] - and a tendency to be
used in american militiaristic and nationalistic propaganda.

For those americans amonst us, please,
i don't mean to attack you personally, but surely it is clear how
the word 'propaganda' can be applied to the controlled
and manipulated mass-media diet they have all of
ya'll (und us as well) on.

i dont base this theory on any sort of anlysis of
global or american politics, but to use another
archetype, my wise high school history teacher
(actually it was english) taught me the basics
 of 'propaganda spotting', and i've been playing
this game rather simplistically with my media ever since.
really, it makes me a bit sick.
I think anyone can see how movies from
'stargate' 'stormship troopers' , through to
'first lady' (was that a movie?) 'big president guy'
'big president guy II' and 'for-god-sake-quit-it-with
-this-idiotic-whitehouse-president-fetish-thing 23'
fit the bill.
I personally even like to include 'wag the dog' in this
list - for surely the main issue to be addressed following
(and preceding) the bombing (or was it missile-ing) of sudan
and afghanistan by the US was definitely *not* the matter of
whether Clinton was trying to distract attention from the
Monica Lewinsky thing but rather the much more
pressing and historically significant matter of
how the world might respond to one UN state (when it is the US)
violating the sovereign right not to be unilaterally
bombed by another, but then again, maybe i'm just
being paranoid. (pause for breath)

archytype b ( in story above) - "globalpeoplenet:"
1. An, as yet  fairly  untapped  possibiltiy for
peace and peaches in the global communicating,
mostly loving, appropriate, truly *deep* forum of
this list ( and others like it ).

I mean, for society, for everything that is civilised
and intelligent in our species there is an archetype,
the square and the meeting place of the people's
consciencousness. perhaps it seems now like a shallow
fiction, like those grey and brown robed star-trek
citizenry dreams. a meeting on lists
which some never really takes part in the plot
of our existance, or the real matters of our possible
futures, but there is now, a possibility, a something
that we can build, with our dreams.

and also something that we can both
understand and shape through our visions,
of *this* archetype works, and
what it is like to exist in *this* space.

sheesh, getting a bit long, and maybe a bit
off track here... better  send.

more new thoughts at 11.


---------------------
the four post wonder
#miles@mail.com#
---------------------

*[by alienationism i beg you to understand
"hatred of other, coming out of love for
one another" and not any marxian meanings
- I know marx kinda got to it first, but I've long
had my own personal meanings for that particular
vowelular munge.]

**[actually as long as im at it, apologies for
any massacring of jung and freud that might have occured
above. i've not actually read any of there shit,
so im a bit out of territory, though i guess i've
picked up a bit in passing  'shadow sides', and
'tat tvam asi' and 'chiascuro' and eros and psyche
archetype and that sort of shit here...]

***[for version three, I think i'll keep the (recent
flurry) of 'psyche in psyberspace' posts actually by
my side, so that I can possibly stay a bit more 'on topic'
and 'in the converstation' so to speak.
thanksyou to anyone still reading see ya'll later today]

At 04:45 20/11/98 GMT, Walter Logeman wrote:
>All
>
>Cheryl began 31 Oct 1998:
>
>> I was just thinking a little about this idea of psyche in csyberspace and
>> I began to wonder - is it the same "psyche" as that which manifests f2f
>> or is it a twin, a shadow, a holgram, a sibling, or clone psyche? I can't
>> imagine that it would be "exactly the same" phenomena but that it would
>> have a rather different energetic pattern. Does anyone understand what
>> I'm getting at?
>
>I think the psyche is evolving rapidly because of the sort of thing we are
>doing here.  But what is the psyche?  Stephen mentions Jung on the subject,
>who refers to it as a total *reflection* of the human world.  That is how I
>see it, as the way we see the world via some form of mirror or medium.  But
>what is the mirror?
>
>They are complex structures these mirrors to the psyche, creating it as
>much as offering something given. Mirror is just one way of describing it,
>sometimes we use window...
>
>I love the way you bring in music Stephen. We are listening to the psyche
>mirrored via music, dance, words, images... and what are these things?
>Ways we can bring our imagination out into the open.  "Our" imagination or
>is it the images and ideas that get us, that use us to flow on through?
>Tuning into the psyche often means getting our ego out of the way.
>
>I am thinking of the chanting and dancing that in our tribal origins might
>have made sense of the hunt and war birth and death.  The rhythm and herbs
>and drink induced altered stated and trance... a window / mirror to the
>soul and impossible to say what is flowing in and what is flowing out.
>
>Writing, all forms of it really, allows us to express and allows us to let
>the muses come on in.  And just like dance and music, there is the
>participation as well as performance aspect.  The novel for example is an
>expression of the imagination via the novelist, and is then interpreted via
>the imagination of the many readers, psyche being created / revealed at
>each turn. Robertson Davies (Canadian novelist) wrote in his diary after
>receiving the Medal of Honor for Literature by the National Arts Club of
>NY:
>
>"... our Consul General who spoke admirably, briefly, and in terms that
>made me blush: said I was doing what Joyce had done- "Forging in the smithy
>of my soul the uncreated conscience of my race." - very flattering - but I
>think it is true."
>
>That phrase captures the essence of the forging of inner and outer that
>makes psyche.  Life as it were is mediated via art, people
>
>With the invention of psychotherapy (another art) we have a form of music
>and dance.  An intense & formal duet, with a very prescribed flow of
>psychological material.  The therapist has a legion of *words* to describe
>the ordinary flow of life: complexes, myths, diagnosis, archetypes,
>behaviour patterns and traits (even, <grin>).  In addition to that the
>dance includes both of the participants and they ate visited by a process
>as much as making one.
>
>Janell, you wrote:
>
>> In my
>> life (and work) I rely heavily on the non verbal and other cues that I pick
>> up in f2f discussions that can't possibly be here in cyberspace, and
>> therefore I was reluctant to take a risk and participate to any real depth.
>> My feeling of comfort took a while to develop and after it did I was able
>> to participate with some degree of comfort.
>
>I think the very absence of some things here (such as the physical body)
>and the *presence* of other things, such as the concentrated humanity in
>the posts, which may have taken hours to write, and can be read in minutes,
>means we are doing something new, which in itself might be scary.  In the
>mix of outer and inner that makes up *experience* there is such a mix here
>that is not the same as the one we have f2f.  For example I have a fairly
>accurate insight about your feelings from what you write... a move from
>reluctance to comfort, a move in your inner process, not confused (to me)
>by how you might look.  I might be inclined to project all sorts of things
>onto you from your looks.  Here in cyberspace I also project -- I even have
>an image of you, but I know more easily that my projection comes from my
>imagination...
>
>Not the whole story though... my images here of what is happening in
>Psyber-L (as in rl) is not *only* from my imagination.  I know for example
>that you Janell have a granddaughter.  That tells me something, though I
>could easily jump to all sorts of wrong conclusions as well, which would
>say more about me than you.  There is a different mix of imagination and
>outer reality.
>
>Dreams simply do not care for the outer world, even when it enters into the
>dream it is as symbol, expression of images for the psyche to use.  Sleep
>is a trance we need for the psyche to come through clearly.
>
>The new media mediates the psyche in a way that we have a new window on
>her, a new place to forge here, a new mirror... to throw a mix of metaphors
>at the unnameable.
>
>Which means I am saying a Yes to what you say Nancy on 31 Oct:
>
>>  If the 'eyes are the windows of the soul', then perhaps the monitor is the
>>  window to some sort of Collective Soul out there in the world, or on
>>  Psyber-L both the soul of each of us in this community as well as some
>>  sort of Collective Soul of this particular community.
>
>I have a sense of the writing we do here being quite unlike novels or
>poems, simply because it is so interactive, we are right in here... much
>like the dancers in the dance, musicians in the band.  There is no audience
>(not since the archives were closed anyway <grin>) and we work away... as
>Stephen put it:
>
>> As Jung knew, "it will give us trouble enough." For Jung,
>> self-knowledge (individuation), is not ordinarily the immediate and
>> mystical apprehension of unity but is, rather, the gritty daywork of the
opus.
>
>
>All for now,
>
>
>Walter
>__________________________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>
>
>
---------------_---------
           o  | |
 _  _  _      | |  _   ,
/ |/ |/ |  |  |/  |/  / \_
  |  |  |_/|_/|__/|__/ \/
                ( miles )

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:58:27 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Four poster poem for miles
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all right miles, you're a bit funny as in haha and wired (meant to type
wierd but can't spell or type) at the same time and I'm not sure i can
follow you and wag the dog scared the shit out of me as i guess it was
meant to being a piece of propaganda that i also think it was and yes
this internetty thing might hold some possibilities of peace and peaches
and I like that phrase and are you stoned frequently as it sounds you
might be  but then it sounded like charles was drunk when he told walter
what a rock he is and okay this is one way of writing and not bad either,
a poem unto itself and of course take time for a breATH AND THEN GO BACK
UNDERWATER CAUSE IT'S RAINING LIKE HELL OUTSIDE.

CHERYL
ps giggle = wired stuff -wierd

capiche?

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1998 10:45:56 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...

On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:43:52 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:

>Nancy,>

>>N: Yes.  This brings up a lot of interesting issue.  Wasn't there a study
>>that concluded that the same number of people 'healed' out of therapy as
>>in it?  Of course I don't know how sound the study was.
>
>One of the studies I know about is the one that the book Focusing was based
>on...at the U of Chicago the psychology dept listened to thousands of hours
>of tapes looking to document the success of psychological process...
-----
N: I  don't know what 'school' of thought the U of C adhered to at that time.
Do you recall whether the tapes were taken from different schools of thought?
I'm curious as to how much the therapist contributed to the client's ability
to tap into their own authority.
   I have definitely found it to be the case that relying on outside direction
doesn't work.  Which is not to say that shared experience, even suggests
aren't of value.
   It's just that sometimes I have a sense of that inner Self guiding me
and other times I don't.
-------
what
>they found was that in the first 15 minutes of the first session they could
>predict who was going to merely come out with coping skills and those who
>really transformed...
----
N: Their criteria certainly would save people a lot of time and money if
it could be properly distributed.
________
the conclusion of the study (much to their dismay I
>might add) was that the people who transformed had a personal process they
>were connected to and were able to use the sessions in service of their own
>process which they evoked...the others didn't seem to tap into this...
----
N: Did you get any 'soundings' as to the why's of this difference?
--------
My
>own experience at 20 was a doctor saying "you can take these pills for the
>rest of your life or you can figure it out for yourself"...what that did
>was give me my own authority instead of looking outside...and I did in fact
>figure it out for myself...which said to me that we all have access to the
>universal knowledge and can evoke it...
____
N: So then you Do feel that the clients in the study Had the  'universal knowledge'
which brings us back to why they didn't evoke it.
   Do you equate this knowlege with what Jung calls the Self?
-----
this has been what my lifetime of
>service has been about and I cringe when I hear the hurt which the
>psychological profession has perpetrated in instances like yours...I also
>get pretty p....off at the damage that is done in the name of "helping" by
>well intentioned people who don't have a clue...well, there is my prejudice
>spewing out...excuse me for my outburst :-)
----
N: Well, I rather enjoy reading you 'spew.'  You don't do it often.
>
>Judith, wishing you sunlight
>off to closing night
________
N: Are you glad it's closing night?  Seems like these performance would
have been pretty tiring.

Thanks for sharing,
Nancy

>
>>  I guess the 'unsafe' part brings up a personal issue for me.  All the
>>unresolved; negative or hurtful or untherapeudic thing every therapist
>>has ever said to me has stayed with me like glue.  While I tend to think
>>of the positive things they've said as 'just being therapeudic for pay.'
>>So obvioously I have some trust issues of my own.  (Though I did think it
>>a bit much that I could hear my first analyst [not Jungian] snoring in
>>his chair behind the couch.  He assured me, however, that he would wake
>>up if I said anything important.  I guess that's why they're called head
>>shrinkers?]
>>
>> It is more the so-called therapeutic
>>>"group" phenomenon  that I am so wary of - and this includes, maybe
>>>especially includes, "spiritual" groups, "healing" centers, even, sorry
>>>to say, so-called "dharma" groups. Deluded groups lead by deluded leaders
>>>are one of the most dangerous forces on the planet. That what Germany was
>>>during WWII - actually, that may be what any war situation is - a deluded
>>>group being led by a deluded leader.
>>
>>N: Unfortunately we are all 'deluded' in some ways.  It's hard to separate
>>the healing from the unhealing.  And sometimes there just seems to be too
>>little of the latter.  I was talking to a friend this week about the advice
>>so often given to people who are depressed, i.e. don't isolate yourself.
>>Yet the fact seems to be the others tend to isolate you when you are depressed.
>>It's understandable (most of us don't want to be around ourselves when
>>we're depressed!) Just not helpful.
>>>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:09:32 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Welcome John Aigner
In-Reply-To:  <199811231944.NAA07059@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
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John
you wrote the following to me, which I pass on to Psyber-L:



> I am a career counselor in private practice, in New York.  My interedts, of
> late, have gravitated towards career issues for the recovering mentally
> ill.  I am particularly concerned about providing alternative methods of livelihood
> support for those recovering from mental illness.  This would include home
> business and self employment strategies for this group.  Or any
> alternatives to sheltered workshop or transitional employment approaches.

> John P. Aigner
> livelihood@aol.com
>
> www.livelihoodroads.com

I hope you find the list of interest, and can bring your experiences here.
At present there are about 35 people on the list, with some more active than
others.  You will find that some of us have a shared history here, but i hope we
come across as inclusive!

I am not sure if there are others from NY.  Some quite close I think.

I'd be interested in hearing more about your work which sounds quite
specialised.  Is the net an important part of that?


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:20:02 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L files and Web Page
In-Reply-To:  <3656E792.58B5@coinet.com>
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Cheryl,

> What does this mean, Walter? Especially the part that the says " starting
> point for depth psychological work".  Depth is that word that
> bothers me somewhat here because depth work is, well, somewhat
> risky, perhaps even dangerous, and especially at a distance, non-f2f.


I feel committed to depth here and in my life.  It is the one word that seems to
describe something I need and value.  I understand that it is possible to be
hurt going in that direction.  Yet what would we do here in a *Psy*ber-L?  Stay
in the shallows?  One of the reasons that this Psyber-L has emerged is because i
felt the need to learn more about this sort of psychological work here, rather
than simply assuming my professional knowledge from face to face work would
translate across to this medium.  Hence the purpose is stated as *learning*
about the psyche here.

> Here's where I'm coming from -

> I see "depth' work like surgery - if you start, you must finish because
> the starting point is the incision. Is it something you can engage in
> ethically as an experiment?

I hope it is clear and I want to say it... that there is no research or
experiment here other than the experiential learning each of us do.  I think
that in the realm of the psyche there is one way to learn... to immerse and
watch.

Your image of surgery is powerful.  Yes... if we start we'd better not loose
commitment, heart or determination half way through.  If it is like surgery here
I have a sense of each of us doing auto-surgery.  And in addition to that I
would hope others are around and committed.  I am utterly clear on the ethics of
keeping the Psyber-L environment stable, transparent, and alive!  Note that even
if I failed in that, that many people here could easily maintain their
commitment to all those on the list...

It is psychological already to feel what it is like here and to declare that...
to say "this is not the place for deeper disclosure" ... that is "movement in
seeing"!  Right now I feel much more secure here with the changes to the
archives.  I still do not have anything like the sense of security or openness
here that i think is possible.  I mean here is cyberspace... I think Psyber-L is
not really designed for a commitments to total support for disclosure... not its
purpose.  I could imagine a list that approached those vulnerable spaces more
adequately.  Hence my interest in *design* in cyberspace.

Oddly enough, now that Psyber-L is a more private space I am mostly thinking
about a new Psybernet list being a more public, information, stories and
discussion list.

> I've
> also been "used" as an experiemnt without my knowledge or consent and had
> it go terribly bad - horribly bad - so much so that I wonder if aspects
> of my psyche will ever recover. I've been there so I'm quite sensitive to
> this sort of issue. Depth work on the net - sounds wonderful but ask the
> wounded people of new and exciting experiments how they feel.

Your caution makes sense, and I am glad you allow it to be here in the open
(paradoxically again it *is* the depth work to do that.  I am a severe critic of
research involving other people.  The sort of thing you describe is not ethical.


> I think
> that you are an ethical and sound person Walter; however I still don't
> have alot of trust in the list as a whole or the experiemntal nature of
> this enterprise. I participate but very cautiously. The process - well, I
> know I have trust issues and rightly so. I have been betrayed before in
> ways that I still can hardly fathom. I'm still here but at a great
> personal price.  I have had to learn to protect myself better - I have
> had to learn that it's NECESSARY  to protect oneself - it's a sad but
> true aspect of life - even as I write this I grieve - so each person has
> to take responsibility for his or her own "depth" work and still...and
> still...

Yes.

And still... even though the encouragement for people to be responsible for
their own depth work is here, and even though we might be supportive, present if
people do that... our very presence... our "safe" space might offer a promise it
can't keep, even though we do not make an overt promises?

True.

In this way it is very like the work i do as a psychotherapist.  For many hours
a day sometimes I work with people on the edge of life or death, sometimes
literally.  They are responsible, but sometimes one more failed relationship,
one more broken promise could lead to total loss of hope and trust.

As you say "depth work is, well, somewhat risky".  That might be to put it
mildly.  I hope for all that we continue to patiently and gently go deeper!
Knowing well that we will make mistakes and that there are no guarantees, and
that at times it will hurt.


Walter

__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:35:21 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Web Page
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998112110160432@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
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Nancy and all who have made suggestions and comments:

>   I've taken a look at the new introductory material.

I will look at each comment and modify accordingly & respond here too.  It may
take a few more days!


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:32:21 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <3656368C.214F@coinet.com>
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Cheryl,

> Iulian mentioned the mirror in response to my inquiry in his post of
> 11/05/98 Re: Romania.

I found it:

| Cheryl said something about shadow talking about psyche in cyberspace.
| What about a mirror? I look in the mirror = I see me. I see me? ( Well,
| I think you know more about Herman Hesse than me.)
| You can name me how do you want.

Makes sense to me... all the time we are choosing where to go... each choice
reflects something of me.  I am not sure what you mean about Herman Hesse there
David Iulian.

~~~

> BTW, Oregon is much more populated than Montana but much less than where
> I moved from. I moved from a metropolitan area of @ 3 million to a
> metropolitan area (if you can call it that here) of @ 50,000. Big
> difference. I really noticed it tonight - this was my first Friday night
> drive home from work - in the past it could take me up to 2 hrs. to drive
> home on a crowded Friday night. It took less than ten minutes tonight. In
> fact, I'd still be in traffic right now instead of writing this email. I
> can't tell you what that means to me. What a relief sort of thing.

Cheryl, I used to live in Sydney.  At one stage I had a girlfriend on the other
side of the city and it would take 4 hours to drive from her place to mine on a
bad day.  Here in Christchurch, 400,000 I can walk or bike everywhere in about
10 minutes... do things in a lunch hour that would take a day in a big city.  I
love it here.

> I like all your images and quotes recently Walter - they are inspiring -
> keep 'em coming (no honeymoon pun intended!)

Thanks.  Unfortunately I am somewhat snowed under again... a bit stressed out as
I have re-entered the world after such a great little break.  For all that I am
absorbed by my venture here, and will keep on!

> I did want to make a commnet about your response to the Tibetan lama's
> statement. He was not prescribing or suggesting a direction - it was
> simply an observational comment on what was needed. He never suggested
> that I 'do" anything in particular with respect to that; however, the
> noted need became a result "seemingly' of its own accord over time. With
> respect to my own inner work I tend to be very careful re: processes
> which need to transform balanced with simply watching what arises as a
> means of that transformation. I am a true believer that "the seeing is
> the movement" rather than any prescriptions or fabricated means. That
> coupled with the basic intention towards transformation in the first
> place.

Did you have a sense that I thought he was prescribing?  I did not intend to
convey that... your story made me think of my own (similar, but jungian)
experience of non directed allowing of what is.  I like what you say here:  "The
seeing is the movement".

In the couple sessions I did today I was aware of how hard it is for people to
simply see their partner / spouse's inner landscapes... it has been amazing to
coach people a little in that... to simply notice and then say what they see...
it brings tears of relief.  (Not sure if this is related to the above,  It is
mirroring again however, we seem to be creatures who need that.)


Walter


__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:27:38 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter,

Thank you for your thoughtful and considered responses to my questions.
It helps me to undestand the intention of the list and I think I am a
little more comfortable being here as a result. The phrase 'the seeing is
the movement" comes from a book "The Passionate Mind" by Joel Kramer.
This was a very important book for me in using my awareness as a
transformative tool. For some years it was out of print in the US and
them it showed up again for which I was grateful since I was constantly
buying it and giving it away, etc. etc. I reccommend it for anyone who
wants to get a "feel" for what it's like to work with one's mind.
Kramer's words actually do come off the page and affect a kind of
'seeing' - or at least they did for me.

All for now,

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 06:51:30 PST
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         David Iulian <d_iulian@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

Walter,Cheryl,all...


>| Cheryl said something about shadow talking about psyche in
cyberspace.
>| What about a mirror? I look in the mirror = I see me. I see me? (
Well,
>| I think you know more about Herman Hesse than me.)
>| You can name me how do you want.
>
>Makes sense to me... all the time we are choosing where to go... each
choice
>reflects something of me.  I am not sure what you mean about Herman
Hesse there
>David Iulian.

Excuse, many excuses!
I went home and I searched in my library.I known the color of the book,
everything...and I found it. And...it isn't Herman Hesse.
I refered at Luigi Pirandello. I will try to translate the name of the
book:'One and no one and 100000'.
I readed it some years ago. From Pirandello I have an expresion:'to know
yourself is to die', a spiritualy dead, a loss of identity.'One and no
one...' is a story about alienation.
An absurd game. A preamble at the existemtialism (I'm wrong?).Anyway, he
reminds me about Kafka or Eugen Ionesco

I stay in front of my monitor. Sometimes I see me, like in a mirror. But
when I look at 'me', in that moment, there is someone else who look at
me too. I can't see me happy or angry, because, in that moment I look at
a stranger.
From the mirror to the net I don't see many diferences. My words who
wader in the enclosed space of the net is my image on the mirror. Here
is a piece of me who travel to you. And you have a image of me, that is
not me.Is a stranger. I try to be someone ( or something ), but I will
be always: the man behind the monitor.
This is the game of absurdity.
And a common problem in interacts between humans.
Everyone in the net try more and more to personalize his/her 'look' and
messages. Tehnology is a help and the source of alienation.

That's it for now.
David Iulian


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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:58:16 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand (fwd)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

<x-rich>All,


Back from my few days away 'out there', and thinking a lot about the power
of place and the place of power.


I came across the following message on my return, and somehow helping it on
its journey through cyberspace by routing it here feels right. To me it
says something important about space and power, about the ability of
ordinary people to reclaim space - mental as well as physical. Walter,
other NZers on the list, what can you say about this event?  I find the
account below very moving. Does it accord with your sense of what happened?


Simon


ps. at the moment I'm reading Edward Soja's 'Thirdspace', in which among
other things he discusses what he calls a 'trialectics' of space, knowledge
and power, and draws on the work of Henri Lefebvre (eg. 'The Production of
Space',which I've had lying around for a while now - oh for enough time and
energy to read everything!). Soja quotes a wonderful passage from Lefebvre
about power and space:


"Power, the power to maintain the relations of dependence and exploitation,
does not keep a defined 'front' at the strategic level, like a frontier on
the map or a line of trenches on the ground. Power is everywhere; it is
omnipresent, assigned to Being. It is everywhere *in space*. It is in
everyday discourse and commonplace notions, as well as in police batons and
armoured cars. It is in objets d'art as well as in missiles. It is in the
diffuse preponderance of the 'visual', as well as in institutions such as
school or parliament. It is in things as well as in signs (the signs of
objects and object-signs). Everywhere, and therefore nowhere... [P]ower has
extended its domain right into the interior of each individual, to the
roots of consciousness, to the 'topias' hidden in the folds of
subjectivity." (Lefebvre, 'The Survival of Capitalism', 1976).


On a psychological level 'making space' seems important (room to breathe?).
There are all those negative internalisations that can crowd out the self -
they're about internalised power relations, aren't they?


Cheryl, I've read with interest your account of your move to a new and very
different (physical) place and space. Walter commented about it being also
an inner journey. I'm reminded of the maxim that we carry ourselves with us
wherever we go (and that actually seems a positive in the story below, an
act of making the invisible visible). Usually it has the connotation that
you can't leave your (inner) problems behind by moving somewhere else, but
that seems to represent a hopeless (defeatist?) reductionism; we are
many-faceted beings, and different environments, exposure to different
people, maybe even to different ways of life, can bring out different
facets in us, lead us to new possibilities (also perhaps foreclose others).
I'd be interested to know what you feel about this. I feel the stirrings of
a need to move, but have no strong idea where or for what, just that I
don't want to stagnate.


I was interested also that you returned to this list, which in a sense is
still (in) the same place; maybe the 'landscape' has changed here also, or
maybe it has a reassuring familiarity? Maybe cyberspace (and psyberspace)
is really only one place. I tend to think of myself as wandering
nomadically through a landscape of lists as I dip into different streams of
text, but maybe this is illusory; I haven't really moved at all - or maybe
it's the lists moving through me rather than me moving through the lists.
Maybe, to borrow Iulian's words, I am just "the man behind the monitor",
fixed and fixated.


Walter, those McLuhan quotes leave me feeling uneasy. To me, remote places
are important, walls are important. Locality is important. A totalising
'collapsed electronic space' is somewhat worrying (think 'surveillance
space' and its psychological, social and political effects).


best to all,


Simon



---------------------------

Date:         Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:50:50 -0800

Reply-To: Philosophy and Psychology of Cyberspace

              <<CYBERMIND@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>

Sender: Philosophy and Psychology of Cyberspace

              <<CYBERMIND@LISTSERV.AOL.COM>

From: Sebastian Mendler <<smendler@WELL.COM>

Subject:      A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand (fwd)

Comments: cc: Greens Conference <<post-grns-usa-forum@envirolink.org>,

          quaker-p@tian.earlham.edu

To: CYBERMIND@LISTSERV.AOL.COM


Good news should be spread.  Check this out.


//skip


---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:40:24 +1300

From: stu@ihug.co.nz

Reply-To: artery@u.washington.edu

To: ARTERY - Community Arts and Activism <<artery@u.washington.edu>

Subject: A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand


I wanted to write something on this for Artery, but time has slipped away.

These people, some of whom I met on the Hikoi, speak many of my words.

While the art content was not - at least conventionally - high, the aspect

of theatre followed it all the way. It was powerful and inspirational. And

I hope perhaps inspirational for others places too.

....stu


Hikoi of Hope - Enough is Enough!


A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand


Ian Ritchie, Judy Redfearn, Peter Horsley, Palmerston North, New Zealand



When we first heard that the national Anglican Synod had decided to organise

a ceremonial walk (Hikoi) from the far ends of the country to Wellington,

our seat of government, in September we were amazed, disbelieving, thrilled.


The Anglican Church is considered to be the conservative party at prayer,

staid, mainstream, reticent. Yet when the Synod passed the resolution, all

those present gave themselves a standing ovation. This was something

different, special!


The move came after endless stories of poverty from throughout the country,

such as how food banks in one city are feeding about 10% of the population,

how social service agencies are struggling to deal with almost double their

planned work load.


These problems have resulted from a series of economic reforms that first

began in 1984 when the Labour Government started the process of

individualisation and commercialisation of New Zealand society by selling

public assets, running down public services and adopting commercial,

competitive models. Successive conservative governments have continued the

New Right agenda, and for many of us, there is now little left of what once

made New Zealand the envy of the world for its universal health, welfare and

education, the ideal place to raise children.


Fifteen years later, the Synod decided officially that submissions and

petitions to government had become a waste of time, and decided unanimously

to "Walk for a Change", with the Bishops from the three sections of the

Church - European, Maori, and Polynesian, leading the Hikoi. The Synod

learnt that poverty is structured into our society more deeply and

despairingly than ever before. The gap between rich and poor is wider, and

the Maori and Polynesian communities carry the heaviest load of

unemployment, ill health and despair.


The decision was made that it would start from Stewart Island in the south

and Cape Reinga in the north on 1 September and end at Parliament on 1

October (1300 & 1800 km away respectively). The walkers would gather poverty

stories from each community along the way.


As it turned out, every main road in the country had its group of walkers,

some walking all the way, others a short distance, some in large groups,

some small. Church bells rang in towns and cities throughout the country as

the walkers passed through on their way to Wellington. While the national

media gave it scant attention that tended to be derogatory, the local media

gave the Hikoi good coverage as the walkers passed through and public

meetings were held. The distances travelled each day were such that each

night, communities all round the country were actively involved in greeting,

supporting, feeding and talking.  While tens of thousands joined the walk

during the month, many times that number were actively involved in debating

the issues in their own communities.


It was a massive, quiet, and orderly revealing of hidden wounds and issues

of deep social concern. The demands were for: real jobs; a public health

system that could be trusted, benefit and wage levels that move people out

of poverty, affordable housing, and high quality, publicly funded education.

While some couldn't cope with the fact that the Anglicans had initiated the

walk, it was supported by almost all churches and religions, trade unions,

peace and other community groups, and a vast array of people from the young

to the very old.


The four streams of the Hikoi  - north, south, east and west - merged in

Wellington on 1 October. The day was beautifully fine and the atmosphere was

both celebratory and determined. Banners and flags were flying as groups of

walkers from the length and breadth of the land came together. As each

stream joined the growing march, clapping, singing, and chanting broke out,

and everyone was smiling. Citizens from all walks of life, greeted each

other as they walked and talked together. An extraordinary spirit of

inclusivity and warmth, collective care and concern, and hope for change,

pervaded the huge gathering.


Looking back, it was a truly amazing experience. Something really exciting

was happening. All our senses were heightened by the emotion of the

occasion. Although we only knew a few others in that crowd, we knew that we

were among friends.


Between 15 and 20,000 gathered on Parliament grounds where the Bishops,

including Sir Paul Reeves, ex-Governor General, took a service, after which

leaders of the various political parties in Parliament were invited down to

accept a compilation of the poverty stories collected, "Voices of the

People", and statistics of deprivation electorate by electorate.


The Prime Minister chose not to be present, partly because she wanted, but

had not received, a private audience earlier in the day with the Hikoi

leaders. The Bishops informed her that her responsibility was to meet the

people at their level, not in a high remote office. Her substitute, the

Minster of Social Welfare got howled down.


There are a few remembered highlights that touched me - a young Indian woman

in a sari with two children in jeans, t/shirts and sneakers, holding hands

together and singing; three conservatively dressed elderly ladies in a group

calling out spontaneous reactions to speakers; an eccentric old man in a

wonderful coloured suit; endlessly proclaiming a new world order, and

marking each point with a shrill blow on his penny whistle; a young mother,

obviously tired and stressed, with three young children searching for a

friend in the crowd; a young man in a wheelchair, helped by an older woman,

likely his mother, with tears on his face.


Standing immediately below a bank of amplifiers the words and the music hit

against my chest.  All these people, all our different nationalities, the

wonderful mix of New Zealanders singing together in English, Maori, and

Samoan, truly aware of each others needs,  moved me to tears.  We were not

separate individuals, we were as one person, the poor, the dispossessed,

people who cared, calling out to be heard.  The responses, unrehearsed,

greeted the individual speakers in one voice and the anthem "enough is

enough" rang around the city, again and again - it was as if we didn't know

when to, didn't want to, stop.


Then as the celebration ended and I turned to go home I knew in my heart

that something had happened that day, something important and wonderful.  It

was the beginning, the seed sowing, the embryo of an idea - a whisper that

creeps out across the country - we are each others keeper, and poverty in a

land of plenty is morally wrong.  Each of us, in our own way, in our own

place, has to keep repeating that message, over and over, and in any way we

can, in growing strength until the whole country beats with it as a pulse to

change the hearts of the rich and powerful, the comfortable, the

unconcerned; to hear the message, to believe in it, to demand its fulfilment

and to take responsibility for our own part in its happening - to sing, to

shout, to cry and to believe that truly,  at times when injustice prevails,

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.


For more information on the Hikoi of Hope, check the web sites


http://www.hikoi.anglican.org.nz


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/3142/Hikoi/

--

For MAI-not (un)subscription information, posting guidelines and

links to other MAI sites please see http://mai.flora.org/</x-rich>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:20:19 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand (fwd)
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a03b281bc1c4986@[195.200.10.136]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Urgh! Dunno what happened with the x-rich tags or the double spacing
(space, hah!); Eudora added them on send. Hope the thing is readable.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:53:55 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche In Cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon, all

"Wherever you go, there you are" Yes, this is a common phrase in the US
these days after a book of then same name which is very popular in
spiritual circles. And of course it is true on the most superficial
level. It is especially true if "you" are the only being in the universe.
Which of course we are not. "We" are made up of everything that's around
us basically - so take a look around and see what makes "you" up.

I do think that we are many faceted/aspected beings and that different
environments can either nuture or kill aspects of our being. This is so
very obvious, I think; evolution itself has been fostered along by the
migration of beings seeking better environments in which to survive -
survival of the fittest can also mean those beings which "understand"
that a better environment needs to be sought or it's the end of the line
so to speak. Conditions of environemnts change and sometimes a being is
able to change along with those conditions and sometimes the conditional
changes are too rapid or too out of sync with the physicalk make-up of
the being. A niche only promotes well-being as long as the prevalent
conditions remain the same. Simon, if you feel like you might stagnate -
or are stagnating - move on, if you can - if your economic and/or
psychological conditions permit it. A sense of "place" is important but
it's also important to recognize a sense of oneself being "out of place"
- actually I think they go hand in hand. Awareness of what you need is
key. However, I don't think there are any absolutes about any of this -
including that there are no absolutes. If life is anything - it is
change, immpermanence. Sometimes there are walls, sometimes there are no
walls - sometimes walls are needed, sometimes they are not. Sometimes we
need enclosure, sometimes we need space - who's to say? For me, awareness
of what's needed now is imporatnt, whether the "now" be seen as this
moment or these ten years or this lifetime. Power can be frightening but
after all it's only energy - no?

What I need right now is to have lunch and then to go back to work. I'll
read more of what you wrote this evening, Simon. Maybe even think about.
;)

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:46:22 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Pscyche in Cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon,

I've just had a chance to read "a glimpse of an amzing event in New
Zealand' and definitely felt the spirit of that walk in my heart. But
here's the thing - I heard nothing of that event in the US media -
perhaps it was reporrted and I missed it - I hope that was the case - but
how discouraging if it went unnoticed on the world stage - why don't the
media report those postive, hopeful scenarios that take place around the
world? It seems to em that possitive re-inforcement works berst for
social change - maybe it is too threatening to the status quo - after
all, people en masse are quite a force, no? Whatt a hopeful sign however
- can you imagine - a press devoted to reporting the postive movements
around thw world that people are accomplishing - things that others could
take hope and couarge from - and imitate - one would think that Ted
Turner (CNN) would see the incredible potential of such an enterprise -
having reporters tarck the postive movements of people working for
change- he does after all have a world stage of sorts - oh, god help us
all is all I can say.

I have to think more about this power stuff you were mentioning...

all for now, and all the best,

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:09:06 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of power

On Wed, 25 Nov 1998 17:58:16 +0000, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM> wrote:

><x-rich>All,
>
>
>Back from my few days away 'out there', and thinking a lot about the power
>of place and the place of power.
>
>
>I came across the following message on my return, and somehow helping it on
>its journey through cyberspace by routing it here feels right. To me it
>says something important about space and power, about the ability of
>ordinary people to reclaim space - mental as well as physical. Walter,
>other NZers on the list, what can you say about this event?  I find the
>account below very moving. Does it accord with your sense of what happened?
>
>
>Simon
>
>
>ps. at the moment I'm reading Edward Soja's 'Thirdspace', in which among
>other things he discusses what he calls a 'trialectics' of space, knowledge
>and power, and draws on the work of Henri Lefebvre (eg. 'The Production of
>Space',which I've had lying around for a while now - oh for enough time and
>energy to read everything!). Soja quotes a wonderful passage from Lefebvre
>about power and space:
>
>
>"Power, the power to maintain the relations of dependence and exploitation,
>does not keep a defined 'front' at the strategic level, like a frontier on
>the map or a line of trenches on the ground. Power is everywhere; it is
>omnipresent, assigned to Being. It is everywhere *in space*. It is in
>everyday discourse and commonplace notions, as well as in police batons and
>armoured cars. It is in objets d'art as well as in missiles. It is in the
>diffuse preponderance of the 'visual', as well as in institutions such as
>school or parliament. It is in things as well as in signs (the signs of
>objects and object-signs). Everywhere, and therefore nowhere... [P]ower has
>extended its domain right into the interior of each individual, to the
>roots of consciousness, to the 'topias' hidden in the folds of
>subjectivity." (Lefebvre, 'The Survival of Capitalism', 1976).
>
>
>On a psychological level 'making space' seems important (room to breathe?).
>There are all those negative internalisations that can crowd out the self -
>they're about internalised power relations, aren't they?
>
>
N: Such readings are hard to get out of one's mine, don't you find, Simon?
  I remember reading a book several years ago on the non-verbal communication
of status and power.  For two days afterware I saw manifestations of this
everywhere.  It became very nearly the only thing I did see.
  This is not to detract that it's out there.

  Nancy
  Hoping you found 'out there' more okay than this.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:42:58 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche In Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <365C7C73.1BC6@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I can feel the truth and wisdom in the
words you wrote. Ultimately, I suppose that the only place to be at home is
'in here' rather than 'out there', but that 'out there' can help if needed.
Maybe that's why some people can feel at home anywhere.

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:45:06 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Pscyche in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <365CC0FE.59BB@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Cheryl,

The first I knew of the hikoi was when I read that post, too. My instinct
about the mainstream media tells me it probably wasn't widely reported, if
at all. The 'bush telegraph' aspect of the Internet is one of its better
aspects, but also there's a danger in accepting everything written on it at
face value - which was why I was interested in 'local feedback' here. Mind
you, there's a danger in accepting the mainstream media at face value too
(gross reality distortion!).

As for positive news, there was a newscaster in the UK who spoke up to say
that he wished more positive news would get reported, and he was ridiculed.
One news show here has an end segment called 'And finally...' which
provides a light-hearted sign-off, as if positive==light-hearted - a
tragically reductionist view, I think!

The writer Celeste Olalquiaga has written of our century as being "worn out
by the rise and fall of modern ideologies, the pervasion of capitalism, and
*an unprecedented sense of personal responsibility and individual
impotence*." (my emphasis) Sometimes I think that instant global
communications give us the 'allseeingness' of gods yet take away any sense
of power, giving us instead only a pervasive sense of hopelessness about
the problems of the world. Not good for the psyche. Yet a small report can
be positive in an uplifting, not a light-hearted, way. Like you, I "felt
the spirit of that walk in my heart" (a beautiful phrase, Cheryl).

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:46:00 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of power
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998112521092276@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>N: Such readings are hard to get out of one's mine, don't you find, Simon?
>  I remember reading a book several years ago on the non-verbal communication
>of status and power.  For two days afterware I saw manifestations of this
>everywhere.  It became very nearly the only thing I did see.
>  This is not to detract that it's out there.
>
>  Nancy
>  Hoping you found 'out there' more okay than this.


Oh dear, Nancy, did it sound really bad?? No, I was happy to get away, it
gave me some space (physical, mental). I love travelling, too (again,
physically and mentally, though I seem to do more mental than physical). My
innate curiosity leads me to explore new ways of seeing, new ideas, to see
what I can learn from them that might be useful for me. I'm not so
interested in dogma or 'frozen worldviews', though I don't suppose myself
free of them either.

Simon
not everything 'out there' is really there

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:48:19 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Simon,

Yes, feeling at home anywhere is the real wisdom, isn't it? It's just
being comfortable in one's own skin - being content with oneself. After I
went back to work yesterday I was looking at a Smithsoniam magazine (it
was a slow afternoon being the eve before a holiday) and I read a book
review - a first-person story of a woman who went to live in a cabin in
the woods that she inhertited in another part of the country - a
completely different kind of life than she had been living. At one point
she wrote - "very slowly I got used to living among people of goodwill
and grew nicer myself." What a wonderful statement -  a bit like our
earlier discussion - we are or become what surrounds us - what our
environment provides - I certainly want to be around people of goodwill
if only to become gentler myself. And I also want to be one of those
people of goodwill if only to provide a good environment for others to
transform. That's synergy, huh?

To those of who whom are celebrating Thanksgiving today - Happy Holidays
to you - I am grateful for this list.

All the best,

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:23:22 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand (fwd)
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a05b281fa47eb70@[195.200.13.174]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Simon,

> Urgh! Dunno what happened with the x-rich tags or the double spacing
> (space, hah!); Eudora added them on send. Hope the thing is readable.

Looks fine on my machine, technically and... even more so that you brought the
Hikoi discussion here, as well as your reflections (!) on power and space.  I
want to respond separately, though I see a connection.

Walter



__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:32:53 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand (fwd)
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a03b281bc1c4986@[195.200.10.136]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Simon

> Back from my few days away 'out there', and thinking a lot about the power
> of place and the place of power.

I can hardly get started on a response as your phrase, "the power
of place and the place of power." relates to so many themes at once.  The Hikoi
brings to mind the struggles of the Maori to reclaim land.  That is closely
related to poverty here in NZ, and also to the spirit of a race, who have
spiritual ties to the land. For Maori, Where are you from? is a more important
question than What do you do?  NZ is in a time when there are settlement and in
today's paper for example is the full text of the apology the Prime Minister
will deliver about broken promises under the Treaty of Waitangi.

As mentioned in the article:

> These problems have resulted from a series of economic reforms that first
> began in 1984 when the Labour Government started the process of
> individualisation and commercialisation of New Zealand society by selling
> public assets, running down public services and adopting commercial,
> competitive models.

This was a huge betrayal and led to a *loss* of hope I think, that the Hikoi of
Hope has not yet been able to rekindle, perhaps partly because the story of the
Hikoi was seriously distorted and suppressed in the local media.  Everything is
now in the hands of foreign owners.  It affects me personally as the bank I used
was recently taken over by a multi-national and charges are soaring, and service
is dropping.

So there is a loss of a sense of nationhood.  Yet "nationalism" was never a
strong platform for many of us who value humanity  beyond nations and race. I
have a sense that some things simply need to go global to work at all. Hence
combating the "globalisation" is difficult... perhaps it is not globalization
that is the problem but individualism and capitalism and the accumulation of
wealth in the hands of a few.  What is to be done?

I would also welcome comment from other New Zealanders on my take on this stuff
as I feel somewhat unsure of my perspective.  What globalisation means for us
from various parts of the world would be interesting to know.

My friend Brian, (sorry Brian if you don't want to be dragged into this!) is
writing about media and education and how these areas of human endeavour are
going through revolutionary changes... I think it would be interesting compare
and contrast the impact on psyche or soul.

On another level the theme of power and place, and your mention of the words
"production of space" relates to the production of *this* space, and the changes
to the doors and windows here.

And then there is the theme that Cheryl has been responding to, the impact of
moving!  I have done it, moved from Australia to NZ.  It was a "geographical"
at age 21 I had family stuff to deal with and I did it by moving.  Many years
later I did it psychologically.  I have always seen it as a bit of a cop-out but
am valuing it more now as an essential step in the process.

And i love the references you bring to the theoretical works on space and place!
My appetite is whetted!  I have been searching Amazon.com and found the books
but very little about them.  Keen to learn more.

That lists my areas of interest, within all of them there are many paths to go
down!

Thanks Simon for such stimulating stuff.


Walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 01:31:47 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand (fwd)
In-Reply-To:  <365ea97f.4506250@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Looks fine on my machine, technically and... even more so that you brought the
>Hikoi discussion here, as well as your reflections (!) on power and space.  I
>want to respond separately, though I see a connection.
>
>Walter

I'm probably going to seem really dumb here, but... why the parenthesised
exclamation mark??

Simon, waiting to kick himself...

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:20:53 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand (fwd)
In-Reply-To:  <3660b029.6212145@smtp.ihug.co.nz>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter,

Thanks for your response on this. I think it is fascinating and important
to bring in this sort of personal testimony, and to bring the physical
world in some sense into cyberspace and into our psyber spaces 'here'. As
for the article, I think it's so moving because it's written from *inside*,
not as some objectified, supposedly 'factual and balanced' report. To this
reader from afar, touched across space by a distant action, there's a real
internalised feeling of the spirit of the hikoi.

Nationalism, what a huge subject! It doesn't have a very good history, does
it? Invocations of nationalism tend to lead to essentialism, to notions of
'purity'... and somehow questions such as 'whose nationalism?' and 'whose
interest is being served here' get lost. Personally I remember with much
distaste the jingoism and flag-waving in the UK around the Falklands War,
and still feel uneasy about how readily all those feelings were whipped up
in the country. Perhaps it was the death throes of a formerly imperialist
country not yet come to terms with its much reduced place in the world...
Great Britain no longer.

And then there are the competing nationalisms at the heart of the Northern
Ireland situation, and the nationalist urges pulling at the threads of the
(not so) United Kingdom, with the short-term trend towards devolution of
power to its constituent elements, and the long-term trend, I think,
towards dissolution... though I can't imagine any wars erupting over
Scottish or Welsh independence!

Anyway, this is probably rambling, and it's past my bedtime... but you
bring up many interesting issues, Walter; I'll have to pick up on more
another day.

I did just want to touch on the following though:

>It was a "geographical"
>at age 21 I had family stuff to deal with and I did it by moving.  Many years
>later I did it psychologically.  I have always seen it as a bit of a
>cop-out but
>am valuing it more now as an essential step in the process.

this distinction between psychological and physical moving I find very
interesting... and would like to know more about "valuing it more now as an
essential step in the process"

all the best,

Simon

ps.  Walter, I love it when you get enthusiastic!!!

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:21:35 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Cyberspace
In-Reply-To:  <365DA273.7E41@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 6:48 pm +0000 26/11/98, Cheryl Foltos wrote:
>Simon,
>
>Yes, feeling at home anywhere is the real wisdom, isn't it? It's just
>being comfortable in one's own skin - being content with oneself. After I
>went back to work yesterday I was looking at a Smithsoniam magazine (it
>was a slow afternoon being the eve before a holiday) and I read a book
>review - a first-person story of a woman who went to live in a cabin in
>the woods that she inhertited in another part of the country - a
>completely different kind of life than she had been living. At one point
>she wrote - "very slowly I got used to living among people of goodwill
>and grew nicer myself." What a wonderful statement -  a bit like our
>earlier discussion - we are or become what surrounds us - what our
>environment provides - I certainly want to be around people of goodwill
>if only to become gentler myself. And I also want to be one of those
>people of goodwill if only to provide a good environment for others to
>transform. That's synergy, huh?

Yep! And Cheryl, talking of synergy (not to mention serendipity)...while I
was book-browsing in town this evening, one of the first books and first
pages I turned to displayed the following message, in large letters:

"All suffering is caused by being in the wrong place...

TO END SUFFERING... MOVE!"

(a weird moment, this, like some process beyond my understanding was
talking to me directly...)

And on another page, again in prominent letters: "MOBILITY IS THE KEY TO
INCREASED INTELLIGENCE"

And a third...

"DEAR ABBY: The discovery that our brains create the realities we inhabit
has led some to say that "we are just prisoners of our own device," or that
"everything we communicate is a lie." Is that true?" BRAIN REALITIES

DEAR BRAIN: A useful word to use in communicating with technological
primates is: PRE-FABRICATION. The brain is a loom unceasingly weaving the
personal fabric of future reality. We are thus prisoners of our own
fabrication. *Neurological Fusion occurs when two or more join to weave a
new reality fabric*." (my emphasis)

And on yet another page that leapt out at me:

"Aleister Crowley said: There are three ways to increase your intelligence:

1. Continually expand the scope, source, intensity of the information you
receive.

2. Constantly revise your reality maps, and seek new metaphors about the
future to understand what's happening now.

3. Develop external networks for increasing intelligence. In particular,
spend all your time with people as smart or smarter than you." (ahem, so
*that's* why I hang out on psyber-l... ;) )

(personally, btw, I frame 'intelligence' in terms of multiple intelligences
- not only logical but also emotional, bodily, social, spatial, linguistic,
musical. Maybe others too.)

The book, I should perhaps mention (!), is Timothy Leary's 'The
Intelligence Agents'. (reconfigure your perception frame as you will...)
And Aleister Crowley probably didn't say anything of the sort; I think
Leary just made it all up as he went along!

synergetically yours,

Simon

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 12:49:09 GMT
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Walter Logeman <walter@PSYBERNET.CO.NZ>
Organization: psybernet
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of an amazing event in New Zealand (fwd)
In-Reply-To:  <v04020a01b283b101e42a@[195.200.19.201]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Simon

> >Looks fine on my machine, technically and... even more so that you brought the
> >Hikoi discussion here, as well as your reflections (!) on power and space.  I
> >want to respond separately, though I see a connection.
> >
> >Walter
>
> I'm probably going to seem really dumb here, but... why the parenthesised
> exclamation mark??

Oh, all that talk of mirrors of the psyche in cyberspace, led me to use the word
reflections with an inflection that acknowledged our discussions... no need to
kick yourself though, I was being inscrutable.

walter
__________________________________________________________________
Walter Logeman  walter@psybernet.co.nz  http://www.psybernet.co.nz

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 07:52:46 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Csybersapce
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Simon,

Well, yes, serendipity...if it happens all the time is it still
serendipity? ;) You can depend on Timothy Leary to be in the right place
at the right with the right wink of the eye - but still, wow at your book
page turning moments - fun, huh? I have a friend who used to have a cat
named Serendipity - she called him Dippy for short - I loved the irony
(btw - her other cat, who is still alive, is named Random).

Oh dear, we've opened up so many topics here - I hardly know where to
start.  It may be a long meditation on power and place - and yes, I
agree, always hang out with people smarter than you are if possible - my
mother always told me to marry a man smarter than myself - unfortunately
I never married - can't figure out if it was because I was too smart or
not smart enough ;) !

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:19:40 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of power

On Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:46:00 +0000, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM> wrote:

>>N: Such readings are hard to get out of one's mine, don't you find, Simon?
>>  I remember reading a book several years ago on the non-verbal communication
>>of status and power.  For two days afterware I saw manifestations of this
>>everywhere.  It became very nearly the only thing I did see.
>>  This is not to detract that it's out there.
>>
>>  Nancy
>>  Hoping you found 'out there' more okay than this.
>
>
>Oh dear, Nancy, did it sound really bad??

N: The 'wars' you mentioned sounded 'bad' (i.e. uncomfortable [and in
my mind, war are so inconclusive in that they don't seem to settle
anything 'important'.)
   I think maybe we went astray on the 'referent' (?)  I was hoping
your 'out there' was better than my 'this' which referred to my experience
of seeing everything in terms of power (over others)
   You clipped the bit about the 'power' book you had been reading which
would have been the start of this message.
   But then much of it may just be me.  As I've mentioned before I'm
subject to winter depressions, about which...
   Walter, I was interested in your subdivisions of 'depression'.  Mine
seem to become worse at any hint of 'my own lack of empowerment.'  I
printed out your interesting 'groupings' and been trying to pin down
my own mpre specifically.
  Simple little things like being unable to locate a book for which I
am looking, leave me flattened with discouragement about myself.

  No, Simon.  You visit to 'out there' seems to have done you good.

  I don't know how to take your experiences in the book store.  The
moving can be either 'inner' or outer relocation.

  I've always like the Australian aboriginies traditions of...What's the
term?  Walk about?  It reminds me of Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness.
I would suppose both might come back reenergized or re-created.

  Nancy
>
>

PS I was wondering, Walter, if you had been hearing any 'great outcry'
in NZ about the rise in taxes which would (I suppose) accomany a return
 to more liberal benefits?  Or if, indeed, there had been any cut in
taxes with the cutting back of benefits?  This sort of 'trade-off' always
seems to be what we hear about in the US.

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:20:07 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,
sorry for not seeming to respond in a timely manner but computer says I
sent the reply but evidentally it didn't make it to Psyber-L...mustof been
intercepted by the psyber gremlin...anyway a bit of response before I fall
into bed


>On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 18:43:52 -0500, Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET> wrote:
>
>>Nancy,>
>
>>>N: Yes.  This brings up a lot of interesting issue.  Wasn't there a study
>>>that concluded that the same number of people 'healed' out of therapy as
>>>in it?  Of course I don't know how sound the study was.
>>
>>One of the studies I know about is the one that the book Focusing was based
>>on...at the U of Chicago the psychology dept listened to thousands of hours
>>of tapes looking to document the success of psychological process...
>-----
>N: I  don't know what 'school' of thought the U of C adhered to at that time.
>Do you recall whether the tapes were taken from different schools of thought?
>I'm curious as to how much the therapist contributed to the client's ability
>to tap into their own authority.
>   I have definitely found it to be the case that relying on outside direction
>doesn't work.  Which is not to say that shared experience, even suggests
>aren't of value.
>   It's just that sometimes I have a sense of that inner Self guiding me
>and other times I don't.
>-------
>what
>>they found was that in the first 15 minutes of the first session they could
>>predict who was going to merely come out with coping skills and those who
>>really transformed...
>----
>N: Their criteria certainly would save people a lot of time and money if
>it could be properly distributed.
J:That's what the book was suppose to do I think...at least I think that
was the hope but certainly it wasn't embraced by the mainstream

>________
>the conclusion of the study (much to their dismay I
>>might add) was that the people who transformed had a personal process they
>>were connected to and were able to use the sessions in service of their own
>>process which they evoked...the others didn't seem to tap into this...
>----
>N: Did you get any 'soundings' as to the why's of this difference?
J: Can't remember...I read it in the late 70's and the book is long packed
away...I think at the time I wondered about the gender make up because back
then I seem to remember a statistic that 85% of the people in therapy were
women and about that same percentage of therapists were men...the book
documented a process of visualization which created the shift I
think...anyway my memory may be very distorted...have to find that book!
>--------
>My
>>own experience at 20 was a doctor saying "you can take these pills for the
>>rest of your life or you can figure it out for yourself"...what that did
>>was give me my own authority instead of looking outside...and I did in fact
>>figure it out for myself...which said to me that we all have access to the
>>universal knowledge and can evoke it...
>____
>N: So then you Do feel that the clients in the study Had the  'universal
>knowledge'
J: I think it was more that they had an intrinsic process of going thru a
transformation...evidentally this became apparent through how they
approached the therapy...also I think it had to do with using the
therapist's expertise but not giving over authority...maybe something about
self responsibility...

>which brings us back to why they didn't evoke it.
J: well, now I have to find the book (g)
>   Do you equate this knowlege with what Jung calls the Self?
J: Can't comment because I don't know Jung
>-----
>this has been what my lifetime of
>>service has been about and I cringe when I hear the hurt which the
>>psychological profession has perpetrated in instances like yours...I also
>>get pretty p....off at the damage that is done in the name of "helping" by
>>well intentioned people who don't have a clue...well, there is my prejudice
>>spewing out...excuse me for my outburst :-)
>----
>N: Well, I rather enjoy reading you 'spew.'  You don't do it often.
>>
>>Judith, wishing you sunlight
>>off to closing night
>________
>N: Are you glad it's closing night?  Seems like these performance would
>have been pretty tiring.
J: Closing night was a delight...finally inhabited the character...good
thing because I'd hate to close without getting to where I wanted to
be...the double performance days were ridiculous...since I was on stage
almost 2 hours of the 2-1/2 hours...looking forward to what comes to me
next...
Hope the sun is shining there
Judith
>
>Thanks for sharing,
>Nancy
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 01:47:31 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...
In-Reply-To:  <v01550103b284e0ba37ab@[207.54.181.26]>
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Nancy, Judith,

re 'Focussing' (or perhaps, refocussing!): I've been checking back with my
copy that I picked up a couple or so years ago. I remember I found it very
useful at the time (another of those fortuitous book-browsing moments!),
and it's good to come back to it now.

If I might add to your impressive recollections, Judith: Gendlin writes
that "we studied many forms of therapy from classical approaches to recent
ones." and "We found that it is not the therapist's technique - differences
in methods of therapy seem to mean surprisingly little." (to answer your
questions, Nancy). He goes on: "Nor does the difference lie in what the
patients talk about. The difference is in *how* they talk. And that is only
an outward sign of the real difference: *what the successful patients do
inside themselves*."

The successful patients were the ones who knew intuitively how to do what
Gendlin came to refer to as 'focussing', which essentially is about
listening to what your body tells you by tuning into what he calls a 'felt
sense', which is a (non-analytical) bodily awareness (but not an emotion or
a feeling). The purpose of the book is to show that anyone can do it,
though - and not necessarily with a therapist. In fact, he puts some blame
on therapists for not "getting out of the way" in therapy. To quote:

"Most therapists like to believe it is they who produce results, rather
than a process in the patient. Therapists have much to offer and think this
will make all the difference. There is always a strong temptation to
analyse what the patient says, to make guesses about the nature of the
problem, to lecture, to rearrange the person's situation.
"But only your body knows your problems and where their cruxes lie."


Nancy, I hope this is useful to you. I can write more on it if you'd like.

all the best,

Simon

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:55:12 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of power
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998112710203287@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy wrote:
>   I think maybe we went astray on the 'referent' (?)  I was hoping
>your 'out there' was better than my 'this' which referred to my experience
>of seeing everything in terms of power (over others)
>   You clipped the bit about the 'power' book you had been reading which
>would have been the start of this message.
>   But then much of it may just be me.  As I've mentioned before I'm
>subject to winter depressions,

Nancy, I think maybe I added 2 + 2 and got 5! What I read in(to) your
response was how I thought my original post had come across to you (if that
makes any sense!), which was as a somewhat despairing expression of lack of
power resulting from my 'out there' experience (probably I had in mind my
comment about internalised power relations crowding out the self).

Interesting then that you go on to say:

>   Walter, I was interested in your subdivisions of 'depression'.  Mine
>seem to become worse at any hint of 'my own lack of empowerment.'

Maybe there's some kind of mirroring, or perhaps attuning, process going on
here?

>  Simple little things like being unable to locate a book for which I
>am looking, leave me flattened with discouragement about myself.

I understand this very well. Sometimes I can be like that, sometimes I can
be more philosophical/rational ('If I don't try to find it, I'll suddenly
remember where it is'), sometimes it just doesn't bother me and I don't
need any coping tactic. It's all down to frame of mind, I guess (or
whatever's behind the frame of mind at the time).

>  No, Simon.  You visit to 'out there' seems to have done you good.

Yes, it did me some good. A change of scenery and faces, a relaxing
environment, plus it's thrown me in new directions of thought and awareness
(shifted my inner landscape a bit, perhaps!)

>  I don't know how to take your experiences in the book store.  The
>moving can be either 'inner' or outer relocation.

Though the ideal is probably both/and rather than either/or... there again,
waiting for both/and may mean neither/nor ;)

>  I've always like the Australian aboriginies traditions of...What's the
>term?  Walk about?  It reminds me of Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness.
>I would suppose both might come back reenergized or re-created.
>
>  Nancy

Talking of (not) finding books, Nancy... your words here reminded me of a
book about Aboriginal myths that I was given as a child. On each left page
it had the text presentation of a myth, and on each right page it had a
magical image conveying the essence of the myth in a different way... I was
entranced by it. I still have that book, but... I quickly realised that I
didn't know where it was... and I felt pretty sanguine about it, so I guess
that's a good sign. I'd like to find it though!

'Walkabout' is the term, yes. Brings to mind for me Nicholas Roeg's
mysterious and poetic film of the same name, which also entranced me as a
youngster (though the opportunity to see Jenny Agutter bathing in the nude
had something to do with that!!!)

Simon

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 03:20:47 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyche in Csybersapce
In-Reply-To:  <365ECACE.516D@coinet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 3:52 pm +0000 27/11/98, Cheryl Foltos wrote:
>Simon,
>
>Well, yes, serendipity...if it happens all the time is it still
>serendipity? ;)

Indeed, how serendipitous can a person be?? is it just a matter of the
moments that you can see?

>You can depend on Timothy Leary to be in the right place
>at the right with the right wink of the eye - but still, wow at your book
>page turning moments - fun, huh? I have a friend who used to have a cat
>named Serendipity - she called him Dippy for short - I loved the irony
>(btw - her other cat, who is still alive, is named Random).

Didn't T.S.Eliot write about a cat called Serendipity? Oh no, I think that
was Macavity the Mystery Cat. I loved those poems when I was a kid.

>Oh dear, we've opened up so many topics here - I hardly know where to
>start.

Yes, that sudden splurge and then... oops! I guess the pace will sort
itself out if we let it... and from there the choices...

>It may be a long meditation on power and place - and yes, I
>agree, always hang out with people smarter than you are if possible - my
>mother always told me to marry a man smarter than myself - unfortunately
>I never married - can't figure out if it was because I was too smart or
>not smart enough ;) !
>
>Cheryl

I had a good long chuckle at this, Cheryl. It's true though, isn't it? I
ask myself the same question sometimes, when I think about my life's
experiences, and where I go from here... too smart or not smart enough?
Certainly not smart enough to figure out which!

Simon

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 14:25:17 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Fwd: <nettime> Issue four of M/C now available (fwd)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter, all,

Re our current discussions here about space, the following is worth a look
and fairly accessible.

Simon

----------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 03:29:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Geert Lovink <geert@xs4all.nl>
To: nettime-l@Desk.nl
Subject: <nettime> Issue four of M/C now available (fwd)
Sender: owner-nettime-l@basis.Desk.nl
Precedence: bulk


  The Media and Cultural Studies Centre at the University of Queensland
           is proud to present issue four of the award-winning

                  M/C - A Journal of Media and Culture
                        http://www.uq.edu.au/mc/

                            and to introduce

               M/C Reviews - An ongoing series of reviews
                   of events in culture and the media.
                    http://www.uq.edu.au/mc/reviews/


M/C is an award-winning journal that crosses over between the popular and
the academic. It is attempting to engage with the 'popular', and integrate
the work of 'scholarship' in media and cultural studies into our critical
work. We take seriously the need to move ideas outward, so that our
cultural debates may have some resonance with wider political and cultural
interests.

M/C Reviews is a companion piece to the M/C journal itself. Publication on
the Internet gives us the freedom to keep its link to M/C proper ambiguous:
M/C Reviews is neither simply a sub-section of M/C, nor completely
independent of it; you, the reader, decide how you want to see it. The
reviews are informed by the culture-critical perspective of M/C, but you
don't need to take notice of this fact; if you do, however, you'll find
that they tie in to some of the debates represented in greater length in
M/C.


Issue four of M/C looks at the concept of 'space'. Space is ubiquitous --
not only in physical terms, but also metaphorically. Governments,
researchers, business and the media are rushing to stake their claims in
cyberspace; at the same time, the increasing globalisation makes
terrestrial space seem smaller than it was, and with international
marketspaces contested more and more fiercely, there is a diminishing
amount of space for errors of judgment, as recent financial turmoil shows.
These are the articles included in issue four of M/C:


  "Of Cyber Spaces: The Internet & Heterotopias"
Foucauldian idea of heterotopias -- or 'other' spaces -- gave architects
and urban designers in particular a new way of interrogating notions of
space. Sherman Young examines the usefulness of such ideas in conceiving of
the Internet.

  "'What the Hell is a Tim Tam?' Reducing the Space between Cultures
  through Electronic Publishing"
Lara Cain shows how the introduction of Internet links into a translated
text could greatly improve the translatability of culturally-specific
references, by looking at some examples from recent international releases
of Australian novels.

  "NXT Space for Visual Thinking: An Experimental Cyberlab"
Sherry Mayo introduces the idea of the cyberculture as creating a NXT
space, where new tools for visualisation allow an expanded perception and
where culture takes place in an objectless fictionalised space.

  "The n-Dimensional Village: Coming to Terms with Cyberspatial Topography"
Axel Bruns questions the usefulness of the metaphor of cyber-'space',
describing how the deeply-ingrained three-dimensional ideas that go with
this image are hindering our understanding of what in reality is
multi-dimensional and variable in its topography.

  "Knockin' on Heaven's Door: The Conceptual Movement of the Dead"
Felicity Meakins looks at the language used in funerals, showing how the
linguistic creation of distance in the eulogy reflects the funerary process
of social and psychological distancing.

  "'The Truth is Over There': Is There Room for Space in Postmodernity?"
Adam Dodd notes the growing acceptance of a more ethereal conceptualisation
of space, pointing out that the traditional conceptual model of space is
simply not useful for articulating the wide, varying range of contemporary
human experience.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Issue four of M/C is now on the Web, at <http://www.uq.edu.au/mc/>.
Previous issues of M/C on various topics are also still available online.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
M/C Reviews is now available at <http://www.uq.edu.au/mc/reviews/>.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
All M/C contributors are available for media contacts: mc@mailbox.uq.edu.au
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

end

                                                          Axel Bruns

--
M/C - A Journal of Media and Culture                  mc@mailbox.uq.edu.au
The University of Queensland                      http://www.uq.edu.au/mc/


---
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#  more info: majordomo@desk.nl and "info nettime-l" in the msg body
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:11:10 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of power

On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:55:12 +0000, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM> wrote:

>Nancy wrote:
>>   I think maybe we went astray on the 'referent' (?)

N; Thanks, Simon.  I get a strange sense of pleasure from being able to
sort out divergence without defensiveness with another.  Sorta lightens
the 'load'.

>Simon remarks:
>Interesting then that you go on to say:
>
>>   Walter, I was interested in your subdivisions of 'depression'.  Mine
>>seem to become worse at any hint of 'my own lack of empowerment.'
>
>Maybe there's some kind of mirroring, or perhaps attuning, process going on
>here?

N: Meaning?  Depression causes on to lose a sense of enpowerment, hence
on can't find books?  Or...?
>
>>  Simple little things like being unable to locate a book for which I
>>am looking, leave me flattened with discouragement about myself.
>
>I understand this very well. Sometimes I can be like that, sometimes I can
>be more philosophical/rational ('If I don't try to find it, I'll suddenly
>remember where it is'), sometimes it just doesn't bother me and I don't
>need any coping tactic. It's all down to frame of mind, I guess (or
>whatever's behind the frame of mind at the time).

N: Yes.  I'm aware of those flucuations.  It's when they go on for too
long that they seem to move into 'states of being', like depression, which
feels as though it will never end.  Perhaps it is then they move into
what Walter referred to as 'Existencial'?  I'd be better organized now if
I'd have allowed fewer of the 'Oh, it will turn up' moments to pass
unattended.
  But to follow a thread from another list, I always wanted to stay with
the 'feeling of aliveness' rather than stop and organize.  This is a
maxim I've run across in dream interpretation.  Stay with the most alive
image.  Recently I dreampt that a black panther was prowling hungrily
through the shack I shared with Bear.  It seemed to belong there (but
then it seems to me that black panthers always walk with a appearance
of 'belonging'.  Bear and I were both pretty scared.
  For both 'aliveness' and 'menace' it's hard to beat the image of a
black panther.
>
>>  No, Simon.  You visit to 'out there' seems to have done you good.
>
>Yes, it did me some good. A change of scenery and faces, a relaxing
>environment, plus it's thrown me in new directions of thought and awareness
>(shifted my inner landscape a bit, perhaps!)
>

>>  I've always like the Australian aboriginies traditions of...What's the
>>term?  Walk about?  It reminds me of Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness.
>>I would suppose both might come back reenergized or re-created.
>>
>>  Nancy
>
>Talking of (not) finding books, Nancy... your words here reminded me of a
>book about Aboriginal myths that I was given as a child. On each left page
>it had the text presentation of a myth, and on each right page it had a
>magical image conveying the essence of the myth in a different way... I was
>entranced by it. I still have that book, but... I quickly realised that I
>didn't know where it was... and I felt pretty sanguine about it, so I guess
>that's a good sign. I'd like to find it though!

N: It sounds lovely.
>
>'Walkabout' is the term, yes. Brings to mind for me Nicholas Roeg's
>mysterious and poetic film of the same name, which also entranced me as a
>youngster (though the opportunity to see Jenny Agutter bathing in the nude
>had something to do with that!!!)

N: Don't know that one.  I certainly enjoyed both films of "The Gods must
be Crazy."  Took me a long time to figure out that it was Africa, not
Australia.  I think it was the native value system I found so refreshing.
It seemed that everything Westerners get in such a sweat about struck
the main character as oddly amusing.  And his own value system was so
simple, warm and spontaineous.
>

>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:40:31 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re; A glimpse of power
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy,

"Walkabout", the movie, is a classic that I bet you can find in your
local video store - I've seen it on the shelves of mine - it's a bit
older - 15+ yrs is my guess - maybe early 80's? - but it's a gem. If
you're interested in this sort of thing I'd encourage you to get it -
it'll take away any romanticism about the outback but it certainly is
about empowerment and not giving up in the face of overwhelming odds.

I also know about the sudden 'discouragement' of one small event leaving
you feeling flat on the floor and I agree that it is something that
builds up in oneself until it is a state of mind. My remedy at those
times is to get out the house and be with people. I really belive that
changes the body's chemistry - if only for awhile - until the next time.
Not unlike an aspirin, eh?

All the best,

Cheryl

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:30:14 +0000
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         "Simon G. Trask" <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of power
In-Reply-To:  <PSYBER-L%1998112910112392@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 3:11 pm +0000 29/11/98, Nancy Smith wrote:
>On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:55:12 +0000, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>wrote:
>
>>Nancy wrote:
>>>   I think maybe we went astray on the 'referent' (?)
>
>N; Thanks, Simon.  I get a strange sense of pleasure from being able to
>sort out divergence without defensiveness with another.  Sorta lightens
>the 'load'.

Yes, well put. It's more rewarding, isn't it. I guess we have some
background here to help that...

>>Maybe there's some kind of mirroring, or perhaps attuning, process going on
>>here?
>
>N: Meaning?  Depression causes on to lose a sense of enpowerment, hence
>on can't find books?  Or...?

I was (mis)reading something about lack of power into your reading
of/response to my post, and my misreading seemed to mirror what you later
expressed about yourself when you wrote to Walter that your depression
became worse at any hint of your own lack of empowerment...  by 'attuning'
I was thinking that maybe there was some process of alignment going on
between us, whatever that might be (I was being more intuitive than
reasoned!).

Does that make anything clearer, Nancy?? Maybe I've just succeeded in being
more confusing... and confused!

I think you've hit on an interesting chicken and egg situation though...
does depression spring from lack of empowerment, or lack of empowerment
from depression?

>N: Yes.  I'm aware of those flucuations.  It's when they go on for too
>long that they seem to move into 'states of being', like depression, which
>feels as though it will never end.  Perhaps it is then they move into
>what Walter referred to as 'Existencial'?  I'd be better organized now if
>I'd have allowed fewer of the 'Oh, it will turn up' moments to pass
>unattended.

I seem to have missed these descriptions of depression. When were they
posted? I'm a bit paranoid about missing posts, because my ISP dropped a
psyber-l post recently when their mail server was down, even though they
have backup machines and claim never to lose any posts...

Maybe depression can exist at different levels, with different
(in)visibilities? Depression as a deeply embedded reality (state of being -
trance state?), depression as a response to particular situations... as a
manifestation of disablement/lack of empowerment at some level?

>  But to follow a thread from another list, I always wanted to stay with
>the 'feeling of aliveness' rather than stop and organize.  This is a
>maxim I've run across in dream interpretation.  Stay with the most alive
>image.  Recently I dreampt that a black panther was prowling hungrily
>through the shack I shared with Bear.  It seemed to belong there (but
>then it seems to me that black panthers always walk with a appearance
>of 'belonging'.  Bear and I were both pretty scared.
>  For both 'aliveness' and 'menace' it's hard to beat the image of a
>black panther.

yes, a sense of coiled-up energy, of being ever ready to spring into action
at the right moment... a symbol of spontaneous living? maybe the image
comes as an expression of a desire to be like that, to break out...

fear, the adrenalin rush, is one way to have a feeling of aliveness... but
being open-hearted and open to spontaneity is another, I'd say - not that I
claim these as strong points for myself (being spontaneous in writing would
be a good start...)


>N: Don't know that one.  I certainly enjoyed both films of "The Gods must
>be Crazy."  Took me a long time to figure out that it was Africa, not
>Australia.  I think it was the native value system I found so refreshing.
>It seemed that everything Westerners get in such a sweat about struck
>the main character as oddly amusing.  And his own value system was so
>simple, warm and spontaineous.

Not a film I'm aware of, sounds interesting though.

Simon

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 11:50:43 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Re; A glimpse of power

On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 08:40:31 -0800, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

 Thanks for you interest, Cheryl, which I take as well-meant.  /But...

>Nancy,
>
>"Walkabout", the movie, is a classic that I bet you can find in your
>local video store - I've seen it on the shelves of mine - it's a bit
>older - 15+ yrs is my guess - maybe early 80's? - but it's a gem. If
>you're interested in this sort of thing I'd encourage you to get it -
>it'll take away any romanticism about the outback but it certainly is
>about empowerment and not giving up in the face of overwhelming odds.

N: Actually I don't want to lose any 'romanticism' (I prefer to think of
as...what?  Positive illusion?  Idealism?  Sense of positive possibilities)
That I am currently able to retain.  (It may be that I did see that video
and found it disappointing -- the last think I care to seek out at the
moment.)
>
>I also know about the sudden 'discouragement' of one small event leaving
>you feeling flat on the floor and I agree that it is something that
>builds up in oneself until it is a state of mind.

N: Excuse please.  I must have somehow given the wrong impression.  For me
...now, it is the state of mind which seems to cause me to react so strongly
with each new (often minor) 'defeat'.

> My remedy at those
>times is to get out the house and be with people. I really belive that
>changes the body's chemistry - if only for awhile - until the next time.
>Not unlike an aspirin, eh?

N: I'm glad this works for you, Cheryl.  It seems to for a great many
people who recomment it to me (including both my sons)  For me it's not
effective (although I retry it occassionally).
  As I understand it the Jungian view is to simply 'live through it'
calling it a 'state of negredo' and hoping for the alchemical gold at the
end.  I've tried that, too.  But with a seasonal depression which seems
to reoccur year after year, I'm finding it harder and harder not to simply
begin earlier...out of dread of what is to come.
  I have no answers, except to try to survive.  One of the things to be
survived seems to be other peoples fear of depression.

  But thanks for your thought, Cheryl.
>
>All the best,
>
  Nancy
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

____________________________________________________________
Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:42:42 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of power

On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:30:14 +0000, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM> wrote:

>At 3:11 pm +0000 29/11/98, Nancy Smith wrote:
>>On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:55:12 +0000, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Nancy wrote:
>>>>   I think maybe we went astray on the 'referent' (?)
>>
>>N; Thanks, Simon.  I get a strange sense of pleasure from being able to
>>sort out divergence without defensiveness with another.  Sorta lightens
>>the 'load'.
>
>Yes, well put. It's more rewarding, isn't it. I guess we have some
>background here to help that...

N: Yes. I feel so.
>
>>>Maybe there's some kind of mirroring, or perhaps attuning, process going on
>>>here?
>>
>>N: Meaning?  Depression causes on to lose a sense of enpowerment, hence
>>on can't find books?  Or...?
>
>I was (mis)reading something about lack of power into your reading
>of/response to my post, and my misreading seemed to mirror what you later
>expressed about yourself when you wrote to Walter that your depression
>became worse at any hint of your own lack of empowerment...  by 'attuning'
>I was thinking that maybe there was some process of alignment going on
>between us, whatever that might be (I was being more intuitive than
>reasoned!).

N: You may be right.  You haven't said that you felt depressed, but I felt
it (rightly or wrongly) as part of your 'wars'.
  Intuitive is fine, only sometimes hard to express verbally with clarity.
>
>Does that make anything clearer, Nancy?? Maybe I've just succeeded in being
>more confusing... and confused!
>
>I think you've hit on an interesting chicken and egg situation though...
>does depression spring from lack of empowerment, or lack of empowerment
>from depression?

N: I guess I might image it like a snowball rolling downhill (perhaps a
slope that has begun to melt so that lots of 'sticks and stones' are
exposed.  [How well I remember my homily prone mother saying, "Sticks
and Stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you."  I was
still of the gullible stage where I though adults had wisdom and was so
puzzled because it was usually my relating of painful words, looks, or
ommissions that had evoked her statement.)
>
>>N: Yes.  I'm aware of those flucuations.  It's when they go on for too
>>long that they seem to move into 'states of being', like depression, which
>>feels as though it will never end.  Perhaps it is then they move into
>>what Walter referred to as 'Existencial'?  I'd be better organized now if
>>I'd have allowed fewer of the 'Oh, it will turn up' moments to pass
>>unattended.
>
>I seem to have missed these descriptions of depression. When were they
>posted? I'm a bit paranoid about missing posts, because my ISP dropped a
>psyber-l post recently when their mail server was down, even though they
>have backup machines and claim never to lose any posts...

N: For some reason I had trouble relocating it recently.  It's dated 11-18
with the subject 'Therapy' (I think I was looking under something else).
I'll retype the bit that caught me (for my own sake if not yours).

"The main thing I learnt is that depression is a parcel, that unwraps and
that different things come out for different people at different times.
For example... despair, oppression, loss of hope, fear, desolation,
loveliness, invisibility, guilt, helf hate, irritability, seething anger,
resentment, buried rage...  and in another corner of the box is: heightened
perception, intuition, inner knowing, sensitivity...  I find that my moods lift
if I can discriminate exactly what is happening.

  Despair of the existential kind is the one that can get me down..."
  He mentions that "the naming of the *moods* here.. {may} be of use."

>Simon wrote:
>Maybe depression can exist at different levels, with different
>(in)visibilities? Depression as a deeply embedded reality (state of being -
>trance state?), depression as a response to particular situations... as a
>manifestation of disablement/lack of empowerment at some level?

>Nancy again:
>>  But to follow a thread from another list, I always wanted to stay with
>>the 'feeling of aliveness' rather than stop and organize.  This is a
>>maxim I've run across in dream interpretation.  Stay with the most alive
>>image.  Recently I dreampt that a black panther was prowling hungrily
>>through the shack I shared with Bear.  It seemed to belong there (but
>>then it seems to me that black panthers always walk with a appearance
>>of 'belonging'.  Bear and I were both pretty scared.
>>  For both 'aliveness' and 'menace' it's hard to beat the image of a
>>black panther.

And Simon:
>
>yes, a sense of coiled-up energy, of being ever ready to spring into action
>at the right moment... a symbol of spontaneous living? maybe the image
>comes as an expression of a desire to be like that, to break out...
>
>fear, the adrenalin rush, is one way to have a feeling of aliveness... but
>being open-hearted and open to spontaneity is another, I'd say - not that I
>claim these as strong points for myself (being spontaneous in writing would
>be a good start...)

N: I tend to feel it is wise to be literal about dreams.  This panther
frightened Bear and me.  I was afraid to get up and feed it (which I felt
would have lessened the danger)  I'm not sure what it sybolizes.
  I understand about the writing.  States like this produce blocks.
>
>>N:   I certainly enjoyed both films of "The Gods must
>>be Crazy."  Took me a long time to figure out that it was Africa, not
>>Australia.  I think it was the native value system I found so refreshing.
>>It seemed that everything Westerners get in such a sweat about struck
>>the main character as oddly amusing.  And his own value system was so
>>simple, warm and spontaineous.
>


Nancy
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 12:01:49 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of power
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nancy

I guess there's a difference between us - I am not a romantic - as much
as possible - I feel much more secure devoid of illusions - positive or
otherwise - I think it comes from having been such a naive idealist and
having been disaaponited so often - also a lifelong jopurney of finding
out that things are not always the way they seem has left me wanting to
shed illusions as much as possible -  naturally, (grin) I don't feel like
a cynic, just a realist. It's a matter of security for me - wanting to
reveal the illusion before it disappoints me. I believed so much so
deeply - whew! I've learned some lessons about how tough life can be. A
little jaded perhaps - but I don't see that as a bad thing - jade after
all is a long life gem in the East. Glad you clarified - helped me do the
same.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 14:14:08 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of power

Dear Cheryl,
  I'm not sure I did 'clarify'.  Reality varies with where you are
internally.  When I'm depressed what seems most 'real' is more negativity.
I've found people whom some, my father for example, might tend to classify
 as 'Polly Anna's' seem to find 'reality' more positive than most.
  'Reality' used to be that the world was flat.
  And then there is which part of, let's say, 'consentual reality', one
may chose to attend at any given time.  Will one chose (if such were
possible) to watch a film on Auschwitz or the recent event in New Zealand
this particular afternoon.
  I'm curious.  Do you happen to know your Myers Briggs test type?  And
would you be willing to share it?

Regards,
Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:17:13 -0800
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Meyers-Briggs
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Nancy,

If I recall correctly, I was an INFP when I took the test in 1976. I'd
have to look it up to be sure - it might have been an ENTP too - I know
the "N" and "P" are correct - can't remember the others really. My test
booklet is one of those things that is still packed away from the move
and in storage until I move into the house. The reason I am not sure is
that the "E" and the "T" were so close to the middle that one more point
one way or another made it into the other "classification". I mention the
date that I took the test because I operate quite differently in the
world than I did 22 years ago - really wonder what the results would be
today. Actually, this topic came up when I was first on this list about
1 1/2 yrs ago and I put my results into the discussion then - it would be
in the archives I guess.

Cheryl

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:24:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Meyers-Briggs

On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:17:13 -0800, Cheryl Foltos <cfolt@COINET.COM> wrote:

>Nancy,
>
>If I recall correctly, I was an INFP when I took the test in 1976. I'd
>have to look it up to be sure - it might have been an ENTP too - I know
>the "N" and "P" are correct - can't remember the others really. My test
>booklet is one of those things that is still packed away from the move
>and in storage until I move into the house. The reason I am not sure is
>that the "E" and the "T" were so close to the middle that one more point
>one way or another made it into the other "classification". I mention the
>date that I took the test because I operate quite differently in the
>world than I did 22 years ago - really wonder what the results would be
>today. Actually, this topic came up when I was first on this list about
>1 1/2 yrs ago and I put my results into the discussion then - it would be
>in the archives I guess.
>
>Cheryl

  Yes.  It was in the achives; I was curious enough to take a peek.  You
said then that you were firmly N and P, but  close to the center on I and
F.  I'm firmly I and N, but have tested both T and J at times.
  Just thought it might have a bearing on this 'get outside' stuff.  The
son who is most firm in his advice is also and Extravert.
  'Couse you might test differently now.  'They' say people do.

Nancy
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html
>
>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:10:27 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Bless you Simon...much better to have the exact data than my reconstructed
rememberances
Judith

>Nancy, Judith,
>
>re 'Focussing' (or perhaps, refocussing!): I've been checking back with my
>copy that I picked up a couple or so years ago. I remember I found it very
>useful at the time (another of those fortuitous book-browsing moments!),
>and it's good to come back to it now.
>
>If I might add to your impressive recollections, Judith: Gendlin writes
>that "we studied many forms of therapy from classical approaches to recent
>ones." and "We found that it is not the therapist's technique - differences
>in methods of therapy seem to mean surprisingly little." (to answer your
>questions, Nancy). He goes on: "Nor does the difference lie in what the
>patients talk about. The difference is in *how* they talk. And that is only
>an outward sign of the real difference: *what the successful patients do
>inside themselves*."
>
>The successful patients were the ones who knew intuitively how to do what
>Gendlin came to refer to as 'focussing', which essentially is about
>listening to what your body tells you by tuning into what he calls a 'felt
>sense', which is a (non-analytical) bodily awareness (but not an emotion or
>a feeling). The purpose of the book is to show that anyone can do it,
>though - and not necessarily with a therapist. In fact, he puts some blame
>on therapists for not "getting out of the way" in therapy. To quote:
>
>"Most therapists like to believe it is they who produce results, rather
>than a process in the patient. Therapists have much to offer and think this
>will make all the difference. There is always a strong temptation to
>analyse what the patient says, to make guesses about the nature of the
>problem, to lecture, to rearrange the person's situation.
>"But only your body knows your problems and where their cruxes lie."
>
>
>Nancy, I hope this is useful to you. I can write more on it if you'd like.
>
>all the best,
>
>Simon
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:35:22 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: A glimpse of power
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy, Cheryl and Simon,
I've been reflecting on the experience of my own depression years ago in
relationship to the energy work I now receive weekly to bolster my immune
system...it seems to me that there is at work on an energy system basis
that the ability of a body to hold energy or turning it around the
depletion of energy is a factor in the experience...for me at this time I
am needing to have help holding energy in my body (the lower 3 chakras) and
keeping the fire stoked...so Nancy I can't remember if you said you ever
used energy work or did something like QiQong...if one's energy is depleted
(which often happens around people who suck leaving one feeling depleted)
then having a practice which directly brings energy into the body ie:
walking, being with trees, drinking in beauty, could be helpful when one
senses a downward cycle...

so with a leap of logic I can draw a relationship to my experience pre
operation where I was slowly losing energy thru the lung problem and
continuous coughing...over time I began losing weight and muscle which I
didn't really notice until I was hardly eating anything...I got to the
point where when I ate my body would literally throw it up (excuse
me)...what I learned was that my body didn't have the energy to digest the
food and walk across the room, and the coughing used up all the energy I
had, so my body rejected the food...now the leap...I think that there is an
energy problem with those who have anirexia which exacerbates the
psychological condition...I literally was afraid to eat...the month before
the operation I had 5 energy treatments a week and gained 10 pounds in that
month...no one meaning the medical people could understand what was
happening...interesting tie to the Focusing data from you Simon that it was
listening to my body that I got the answer

maybe a point of focus which operates at a different level than the level
where the problem is created?

Just a thot
Judith up too late but engaged


>At 3:11 pm +0000 29/11/98, Nancy Smith wrote:
>>On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:55:12 +0000, Simon G. Trask <simon@SIMBIOSIS.COM>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Nancy wrote:
>>>>   I think maybe we went astray on the 'referent' (?)
>>
>>N; Thanks, Simon.  I get a strange sense of pleasure from being able to
>>sort out divergence without defensiveness with another.  Sorta lightens
>>the 'load'.
>
>Yes, well put. It's more rewarding, isn't it. I guess we have some
>background here to help that...
>
>>>Maybe there's some kind of mirroring, or perhaps attuning, process going on
>>>here?
>>
>>N: Meaning?  Depression causes on to lose a sense of enpowerment, hence
>>on can't find books?  Or...?
>
>I was (mis)reading something about lack of power into your reading
>of/response to my post, and my misreading seemed to mirror what you later
>expressed about yourself when you wrote to Walter that your depression
>became worse at any hint of your own lack of empowerment...  by 'attuning'
>I was thinking that maybe there was some process of alignment going on
>between us, whatever that might be (I was being more intuitive than
>reasoned!).
>
>Does that make anything clearer, Nancy?? Maybe I've just succeeded in being
>more confusing... and confused!
>
>I think you've hit on an interesting chicken and egg situation though...
>does depression spring from lack of empowerment, or lack of empowerment
>from depression?
>
>>N: Yes.  I'm aware of those flucuations.  It's when they go on for too
>>long that they seem to move into 'states of being', like depression, which
>>feels as though it will never end.  Perhaps it is then they move into
>>what Walter referred to as 'Existencial'?  I'd be better organized now if
>>I'd have allowed fewer of the 'Oh, it will turn up' moments to pass
>>unattended.
>
>I seem to have missed these descriptions of depression. When were they
>posted? I'm a bit paranoid about missing posts, because my ISP dropped a
>psyber-l post recently when their mail server was down, even though they
>have backup machines and claim never to lose any posts...
>
>Maybe depression can exist at different levels, with different
>(in)visibilities? Depression as a deeply embedded reality (state of being -
>trance state?), depression as a response to particular situations... as a
>manifestation of disablement/lack of empowerment at some level?
>
>>  But to follow a thread from another list, I always wanted to stay with
>>the 'feeling of aliveness' rather than stop and organize.  This is a
>>maxim I've run across in dream interpretation.  Stay with the most alive
>>image.  Recently I dreampt that a black panther was prowling hungrily
>>through the shack I shared with Bear.  It seemed to belong there (but
>>then it seems to me that black panthers always walk with a appearance
>>of 'belonging'.  Bear and I were both pretty scared.
>>  For both 'aliveness' and 'menace' it's hard to beat the image of a
>>black panther.
>
>yes, a sense of coiled-up energy, of being ever ready to spring into action
>at the right moment... a symbol of spontaneous living? maybe the image
>comes as an expression of a desire to be like that, to break out...
>
>fear, the adrenalin rush, is one way to have a feeling of aliveness... but
>being open-hearted and open to spontaneity is another, I'd say - not that I
>claim these as strong points for myself (being spontaneous in writing would
>be a good start...)
>
>
>>N: Don't know that one.  I certainly enjoyed both films of "The Gods must
>>be Crazy."  Took me a long time to figure out that it was Africa, not
>>Australia.  I think it was the native value system I found so refreshing.
>>It seemed that everything Westerners get in such a sweat about struck
>>the main character as oddly amusing.  And his own value system was so
>>simple, warm and spontaineous.
>
>Not a film I'm aware of, sounds interesting though.
>
>Simon
>
>____________________________________________________________
>Read, write in Psyber-L, manage your options, or unsubscribe
>here:      http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/psyber-l.html

____________________________________________________________
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Nov 1998 01:47:41 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Depressions
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,
Just a wild thought which emerged just as I was finished reading the last
few days posts...

Do I have this right that you are a writer professionally? If not just
disregard the following

If one thinks of American writers(I don't have knowledge of others) and
then posits an archetypal framing (with apologies to Jung), there is a real
theme of depression running thru many of the lives, so could it be that you
are resonating or are magnetized to this archetype (ala the starving
artist) as an aspect of your experience? Again it just came bubbling up
after reading the recent posts?

Judith exploring

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:19:01 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Nancy Smith <mossy7@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...

Dear Simon, Judith, Cheryl, Walter, All,
  As it happens I have a copy of Genelin's book Focusing, which I just
dug back out and began rereading.  The point of interest to me at the
moment is that it seems to me that his method addresses itself to the
point Walter made about trying to identify the exact for the the depression
was taking at a given point in time.
  As it happens lasr week my Chiropractor suggested that some shoulder
pains I'd been having for a bit might be connected with gallblader
problems and suggested several other symptoms (which I of course hadn't
the least idea about until he made me aware of them) which fit.  Then
in the last 4-5 days I've had almost daily attacks of pain.
  At the GP's today I was reading Focusing (while waiting [all too long
it always seems to me] and the word that came up for me was 'neglect'.
It seemed to ring true.  The odd thing was that my lst real therapist
had suggested that I felt neglected (re: childhood) and I had made no
connection at all.  My guess now is that this was a case of what Nathan
Schwartz-Salant calls 'making a horse out of a cow'.  I think I was asking
for empathy and got a thinking tone of voice, so what she said simply
didn't register until now.
  I hope what seems to have become something of a personal ramble makes
some sense to you'all.
  It was also interesting to note, Judith, your last post about 'starving
artists'.  I can't draw an exact 'bead' on that, but since the digestive
system is apparently involved and possibly because I've lost about 20 lbs
in the last two months...there seemed to be some sort of relationship.
  I don't know much about 'energy work', Judith, but would like to hear
more.
  Thanks for redirecting my thoughts to Focusing, Simon.

  And thanks to all for your concern,

  Nancy

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 30 Nov 1998 23:01:56 -0500
Reply-To:     Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
Sender:       Exploring the Psyche in Cyberspace <PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM>
From:         Judith Buerkel <judithb@APK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Psyber-L Files and Wellness ...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Nancy,

>Dear Simon, Judith, Cheryl, Walter, All,
>  As it happens I have a copy of Genelin's book Focusing, which I just
>dug back out and began rereading.  The point of interest to me at the
>moment is that it seems to me that his method addresses itself to the
>point Walter made about trying to identify the exact for the the depression
>was taking at a given point in time.
>  As it happens lasr week my Chiropractor suggested that some shoulder
>pains I'd been having for a bit might be connected with gallblader
>problems and suggested several other symptoms (which I of course hadn't
>the least idea about until he made me aware of them) which fit.  Then
>in the last 4-5 days I've had almost daily attacks of pain.
Intersting alignment, Nancy, I have had unbelievable pain in my right
shoulder, clavical,scapula, upper vertebre which I attributed to the
affects of the operation oppening my chest and not getting the stuff back
in place plus I tore something in my rotary cuff...I've had nerve pain
because of displaced muscles, etc etc etc the physical symptoms...anyway
this is the masculine side and I have been looking for the spiritual
issue(s) which are the source of the pain and during a Reike session last
week he found a very old issue (older than this life it seems, very old
soul issue) self-cruelty...I've been making connections around that all
week...fascinating and scary

>  At the GP's today I was reading Focusing (while waiting [all too long
>it always seems to me] and the word that came up for me was 'neglect'.
>It seemed to ring true.  The odd thing was that my lst real therapist
>had suggested that I felt neglected (re: childhood) and I had made no
>connection at all.  My guess now is that this was a case of what Nathan
>Schwartz-Salant calls 'making a horse out of a cow'.  I think I was asking
>for empathy and got a thinking tone of voice, so what she said simply
>didn't register until now.
>  I hope what seems to have become something of a personal ramble makes
>some sense to you'all.

Sounds like you are following the thread and making connections...is your
pain in the left or right?
>  It was also interesting to note, Judith, your last post about 'starving
>artists'.  I can't draw an exact 'bead' on that, but since the digestive
>system is apparently involved and possibly because I've lost about 20 lbs
>in the last two months...there seemed to be some sort of relationship.
>  I don't know much about 'energy work', Judith, but would like to hear
>more.
There are variations called by many names and practiced by people who are
Reike Masters which is a form of working thru points on the body and
channeling what they would say is Divine Energy and allowing it to go where
thehealing is needed...there is QiQong where the Master follows the
meridians of the body...he or she would read the pulse to diagnose and then
use hands on, this is another way of acupuncture...there is acupressure
working the meridians also...my healer is more clinical in that she may do
a basic Chelation meaning moving around the body focusing on the 7 chakras,
but she also does celular reconstruction, reduced my tumor, works with
AIDS, cancer, and difficult diseases...she has been in practice for 20
years and is a student of Rosalyn Breiere who is known
worldwide...participates in Menninger Clinic research...works with the
awful cancers in Germany as a result of all the nuclear disasters in
USSR...did the original research with Rolf (Rolfing which is a form of deep
tissue release...where are you located? I may have a connection there...

>  Thanks for redirecting my thoughts to Focusing, Simon.

Me too, Simon, I remembered the reason I related to the book when I found
it because I had healed myself through my body responses...remembering when
I would find and reconfigure a block I would feel my cells
recalculate...that was the feedback system I used...
>
>  And thanks to all for your concern,
>
>  Nancy
Blessing,
Judith

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