From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Wed Jan 03 19:20:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: There seems to be a void and an ECHO!!
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:20:29 +1100


HELLO HELLO HELLO ELLO ELLO LLO LLO LO LO O O... (During Christmas
holidays,  there seems to be an echo where there once was space filled with
people,  where is everyone?)

Oh well I guess I'm a little sad at the amount,  or lack of mail I have
received...

Guess it does not matter now that I am going away again,  Up to my friends
holiday house and then to do some more fruit picking.I hope everyone has
survived the festive season in relitively one peace.I guess I talk to you
people when I return for uni.Feburary some time.

Bye.


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






From hoon@apk.net Thu Jan 04 03:02:54 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama talks about his working holiday...
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 09:02:54 -0500


Tama,

This is one heckuva post for this midling oldster. To say that it brings
back memories of my youth...in your report from the frontlines (of
getting): the 1st time(s) (out of the way,) and then your very able
reflections.

Somehow what resonates with me is SUDDEN LAUGHTER which is one way I
approach the learning experiences; somehow standing at the *head* of all
such experience one might opt, in reflection, to say "no regrets". But, the
Gods will have their way with you in any case!

>Lola my nana was really neat-83

There you have it. Imagine getting to be 83; standing at the head of that
much experience.

Best to you and you and you.

And, here's my wishes for all to have a happy and interesting new year!

He caun ne'er be bothered but maun e'er be waked. If there is a future in
every past that is present Quis est qui non novit quinnigan and Qui quae
quot at Quinnigan's Quake! Stump! His producers are they not his consumers?
Your exagmination round his factification for incamination of a warping
process. Declaim!

Finnegan's Wake, James Joyce






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Jan 16 01:00:24 1996
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
Subject: The New Year
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 12:00:24 GMT

Hi to all in Psybernet !

I am back from a two week holiday and the Christmas New Year
break.  Happy 1996.  So far it has been a good one for me.  Kate
& I have been on a long tramp into the north west of the South
Island of New Zealand.  Two weeks of walking every day -- for
those to whom this makes sense: we left the car at Karamea --
walked the Heaphy track -- got supplies at Collingwood and went
back into the Douglas range from Bainham -- traversed it, and
walked to the Cobb Dam where we had some more supplies waiting
for us and then we went down the Leslie River, up the Karamea
river and along the Whangapeka track back to our car.  About
300K, with ups _and_ downs that added up the height of Mt
Everest.  

It was good to do, beautiful, challenging, healthy, and excellent
for our relationship -- which was really the best part for me.  I
feel great.  

I have come back with still two weeks of holiday, ie no clients,
I have really given myself a good break this year.  I needed it
-- my silence in this Conference has been an indication of how
hectic things got toward the end of last year.  

What does 1996 hold for me? 

Off line:  

Keeping sane and healthy.  Seeing friends.  Domesticity (really
getting into the remodelling of the bathroom!)

That is all a new year resolution stuff -- will be hard to do as
I have a major new project on the go:

Harley Chambers Group Training Room.  

I have rented a 6 x 7 meter ground floor room plus kitchen in the
building I have my small private practice room in, right in the
heart of the city.  It is a good space.  I am refurbishing it en
toto.  It is a huge commitment for me but I am glad I have made
the step.  The vision is to have a better focus for the groups I
already run and to run more.  What bought this on was the
realisation that I was spending to much time here in cyberspace
thinking about groups and not enough in RL.  (I find that a
little sad, though I think Psybernet will benefit from this)
Perhaps even more important was the sense I had of needing being
able to work much better in a purpose built readily available
room -- that really suits me.  

I plan to run about 4 new regular weekly groups and to let the
space out to other group leaders.  With a bit of luck it will
make life easier and more pleasant in the long run.

I am looking forward to being immersed in group dynamics, doing
more reading and training of myself and others.  (BTW does anyone
have the address of the AK Rice institute in the USA?) 

In addition to all of the above there is the usual client load of
psychotherapy and couple counselling I do.  This is my bread and
butter work and I love it.  

== Psybernet On line in 1996 ==
For the first time in three years this is Psybernet project is
not pre occupying the major space in my life.  For all that I
have an idea that it will go ahead in a qualitative way this
year.  I am convinced that there is a place for focussed
professional depth and group psychology on the net.  For example,
speaking to a lawyer while on the tracks:  They have several
levels of email intra office groups in their large office -- but
all underused.  The potential for these sorts of work groups is
enormous.  The facilitation of them requires the sort of
knowledge we are developing in Psybernet -- all the principles of
group work and more!

= Psybernet Conference =
I look forward to being here more.  I have enjoyed the feel of
the place with Stephen, Ron, Tama, Miles and the occasional
others.  I know Josh, and Dan R, and Barry read it -- and in some
ways this keeps a connection going with them.  It feels personal.
Don't get me wrong -- the main function - as outlined in the
description -- is exploring the psychology of cyberspace, which
goes beyond the personal.  

I noticed there was a thread going in Net Dynamics re therapy in
the list -- I must get a look in on that soon. 

= Psybernet Small Groups =
Here & Now group 
Many enquires, few enrolments -- will need to find a way to get
it off the ground soon if it is to be a goer by Feb 10 as
planned.  

= Psybernet WWW =
Needs updating and that will happen.  I have been meaning to have
an evening talking about Psybernet and using the WWW pages -- it
was looking for a room for that event that led to the Harley
Chambers Group Room -- the evening will happen in 96!  

= Aion =
What a huge task that book is and hard to keep at.  I will make
sure there is an Aion group running though -- at least until I
have worked my way through that work to my satisfaction.  I have
a task of reviewing Edinger's new book on Aion for the Round
Table Review -- that will keep me busy for a bit!  

= Personal Exploration =
Professionally guided via email!  I have been promoting this for
a long time and in 1995 it actually happened.  I have worked with
someone in this way.  It has been _very interesting_.  Imagine
psychotherapy without the sharp definition of the
psychotherapeutic hour, it is the creation of the work space that
has intrigued me about the process.  I look for ward to doing
more -- sometimes there are very good reasons for someone to do
this sort of exploration via this medium -- believe me.

= Technical stuff:=
BBS is used as the vehicle for gating groups to the Internet --
and that works well --  but it is too expensive for large volumes
(from New Zealand) if there are no subs involved.  I have heard
that there are no volume charges for sending material from some
US providers and will look into that for the Psybernet Conference
and groups such as the Aion group. (anyone with knowledge on the
technicalities and politics of listserv or majordomo lists please
respond right here in the Conference, it is all part of the
process.


Enough for one email, and happy new year.


Walter






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Jan 16 01:43:06 1996
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
Subject: Re: Tama talks about his working holiday...
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 12:43:06 GMT

Tama,

>  OI Walter did you get my messages on your answer phone?
> I was gonna ring when I came through but I forgot-things were too arrgggh
> complex...

Yeah -- I could not get back to you, no number -- I would have,
but it was a hectic time here too -- so maybe as well.  Call
again if your in town.

> But Luckily the Japanese sister city of Nelson raised $16, 000 so now the
> pressure has been releaved a bit and they can find the rest of the money.

What a story -- more to sister cities than meets the eye.  

> Marijuana Mutton Birds & Dave Dobbyn & drunk trying to act slightly normal, pigged out on ice cream,

wow.

> Crazy-don't worry the worst is yet to come.

> to my father if he still does not want any thing to do with me I'll get
> social welfare to put me in his will.

This is important for you Tama.  Seems right that you get it
right, a sort of a life task to make the best of this situation.
Parents are important -- they are the earth and the sky to us and
if the sky is only half there that makes for a tricky start to
life.  In my case it was that my mother was supposedly crazy.
You can see what I have done with that bit of a flaw in the
family system.  (Actually it was more the social system that was
the problem.)

> -mixed feelings - lost my virginity

You are _frank_ Tama!  It is refreshing to read your open hearted
stories -- I hope you are both OK with it all.  How is it that
you are so free with these stories -- your openness strikes me as
unusual -- I hope it does not get you into the shit somewhere --
I guess it wont if you know when not to do it?
> talking to my nana,  about her sons traits,  one then was slightly dislexic
> which I was, 

Something I've grappled with all my life.  Sometimes at school
I'd get top marks for the thing itself and then fail because they
had a policy of taking off two marks for every misspelled word --
you have no idea how fantastic it was for me to have my first
spell checker on my Commodore 64.  I started sending letters away
knowing that they had at least passed the test.  It is so
embarrassing to be a teacher and a graduate etc. and to always
spell words wrong.  It is really only since that spell checker
that I have been able to write with regularity and pleasure!  

> Hey Walter that Here & Now groups sounds cool.Do you think that I would
> suit it or not? Ha do you have a student rate? 

One of the things about groups is that if people want to be there
then it usually works out OK.  Can you make it fit into your
student life?  I could negotiate the _rate_ of payment.  

> Oh well disapate my net form.

???

> the guy who was in the Cave Creek accident,
> maybe when he gets hold of a computer I can getr him online here or in one
> of your groups.

Or here in the Psybernet Conference -- sure thing.


On to the next one . . . 


Walter






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Jan 16 02:49:01 1996
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
Subject: Re: Tama talks about his working holiday...
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:49:01 GMT

Stephen,

> This is one heckuva post for this midling oldster. To say that it brings
> back memories of my youth...in your report from the frontlines (of
> getting): the 1st time(s) (out of the way,) and then your very able
> reflections.

My god, we could get into sharing our youthful firsts -- now then
we would be in a therapy group!  Well perhaps.  
 
> Gods will have their way with you in any case!

Do they what!  I have just read "The Game" by A S Byatt -- not
the glass bead Game -- but an imaginative game two sisters played
in their childhood -- it was a "god' in the sense that it
determined their whole life that innocent playing.  

She opens with a poem by Charlotte Bronte on that theme.  

"We wove a web in childhood
A web of sunny air;

 .....  from Retrospection (1835)  

> Best to you and you and you.

And best to you -- apologies for the late seasons greetings.  I
am glad you managed to have a good one in place with the quote
fro Joyce

> And, here's my wishes for all to have a happy and interesting new year!
> 
> He caun ne'er be bothered but maun e'er be waked. If there is a future in
> every past that is present Quis est qui non novit quinnigan and Qui quae
> quot at Quinnigan's Quake! Stump! His producers are they not his consumers?
> Your exagmination round his factification for incamination of a warping
> process. Declaim!
> 
> Finnegan's Wake, James Joyce

I recently listened to Terence McKenna on tape on Marshall
McLuhan and Finnegan's Wake -- worth doing.  Mystic Fire Audio.


Look forward to the year --


Walter.







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Tue Jan 16 02:56:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: The New Year
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:56:33 -0500


Walter, and to all, good new year,

First, Walter: I didn't hear from you, but I still plan to enroll in H&N.
Do you need help in its promotion?

Wondering about anybody's ideas about the Psyber-L list space and what it
might manifest this year. I archived the postings from the post
Thanksgiving period and  observed that our beloved : ) Psyber-L list just
hit a brick wall. My own attempt to stir the pot was met with...silence.

What do people think? Walter, I'd like to see a recap of what the list's
constituency looks like right now: how many, from where, hair color, etc.

***

One result of search on AK Rice:

The Center for the Study of
Groups and Social Systems, Boston Center of the A.K. Rice
Institute, Mont Marie Conference Center, Holyoke, Massachusetts,
USA. For brochure and application contact: Dannielle Kennedy,
Ph.D. Associate Director for Administration, 54 Clairemont Road,
Belmont, MA 02178, 617-489-4734

***

comments to follow.

in '96 may your best wishes for your self(s) come true...

Stephen


============================revamped!==
*http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html*
=======================================

A good society is one that helps each individual develop his or her genetic
potential to the fullest. It provides opportunities for action to everyone:
to the athlete and the poet, the merchant and the scholar. It does not bar
anyone from doing what he or she does best, and guides everyone to discover
what that is. A good society makes it possible for each person to develop
the skills necessary to experience flow in socially productive activities.
At the same time, it guards against anyone's exploiting the psychic energy
of another person for his or her own advantage.

--Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi






From hoon@apk.net Tue Jan 16 02:58:03 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: ball rolling
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:58:03 -0500


Greetings!

comments...

>Island of New Zealand.  Two weeks of walking every day -- for
>those to whom this makes sense: we left the car at Karamea --
[snip]
>river and along the Whangapeka track back to our car.  About
>300K, with ups _and_ downs that added up the height of Mt
>Everest.

You put me into a (recent) life past regression! Reminded of
Vermont...lucky you!
>
>It was good to do, beautiful, challenging, healthy, and excellent
>for our relationship -- which was really the best part for me.  I
>feel great.

Wonderful...your *joy* comes through.

[snip]

>Harley Chambers Group Training Room.

[snip]

> What bought this on was the
>realisation that I was spending to much time here in cyberspace
>thinking about groups and not enough in RL.  (I find that a
>little sad, though I think Psybernet will benefit from this)

[snip]

Good for you; sounds exciting. I'm sure Psyber-L is going through
'fluxation' as we all work in the backround on other stuff.

[snip]
>
>== Psybernet On line in 1996 ==
>For the first time in three years this is Psybernet project is
>not pre occupying the major space in my life.  For all that I
>have an idea that it will go ahead in a qualitative way this
>year.  I am convinced that there is a place for focussed
>professional depth and group psychology on the net.  For example,
>speaking to a lawyer while on the tracks:  They have several
>levels of email intra office groups in their large office -- but
>all underused.  The potential for these sorts of work groups is
>enormous.  The facilitation of them requires the sort of
>knowledge we are developing in Psybernet -- all the principles of
>group work and more!

Thinking about similar kinds of engagement in the field of individuation
and personal synthesis; hope my co-instigator is reading this (yo!) and
wondering how Psyber-L will develop; could very well develop as a valuable
resource. Some sense of reformulation for Psyber-L which may mean more
directed given your comment implying the development of (a) knowledge
(base) prionciples

>= Psybernet Conference =
>I look forward to being here more.  I have enjoyed the feel of
>the place with Stephen, Ron, Tama, Miles and the occasional
>others.  I know Josh, and Dan R, and Barry read it -- and in some
>ways this keeps a connection going with them.  It feels personal.
>Don't get me wrong -- the main function - as outlined in the
>description -- is exploring the psychology of cyberspace, which
>goes beyond the personal.

Yet, the will-to-contribute flagged in early December. We might wonder why!

[snip]

BTW, Net_Dynam is having trouble activating solid projects that are pointed
at building a knowledge base. The group itself is a wonderful and highly
active collection of people and work does get done...but it's explorations
and heuristic remain informal and non-linear, (okay by me,) which means it
hasn't been able to structure and 'archive' it's own knowledge base, yet.

>= Psybernet Small Groups =
>Here & Now group
>Many enquires, few enrolments -- will need to find a way to get
>it off the ground soon if it is to be a goer by Feb 10 as
>planned.

A thorough Internet-based promotional effort would require a WWW page to
keyword and link to and about eight hours of online promotional work
Walter.

[snip]

>= Personal Exploration =
>Professionally guided via email!  I have been promoting this for
>a long time and in 1995 it actually happened.  I have worked with
>someone in this way.  It has been _very interesting_.  Imagine
>psychotherapy without the sharp definition of the
>psychotherapeutic hour, it is the creation of the work space that
>has intrigued me about the process.  I look for ward to doing
>more -- sometimes there are very good reasons for someone to do
>this sort of exploration via this medium -- believe me.

Looking into the medium feeling it might be a large part of my own
'teaching' direction in 1996. (My puer self whispering: get a *more fun*
job! ;-)  )

[snip]

>technicalities and politics of listserv or majordomo lists please
>respond right here in the Conference, it is all part of the
>process.

See what I can turn up.

Best and better to all,

Stephen

============================revamped!==
*http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html*
=======================================

Finite players play within boundaries;
infinite players play with boundaries.

--James P. Carse






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Thu Jan 18 12:44:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Father wants to find out?
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:44:08 +1300 (NZDT)


Hello,

Hey Walter heres some interesting news,
My father rang up a couple of night ago and has talked with his lawyer and
wants to have DNA tests done.The only problem about being recognised as his
son is that my allowance may be cut off,  so we just have to find out if
I'm his son (but thats only for his verification really) and then not
declare it fgor another 4 yrs or so.Apparently his mother who I met quite
liked me.
  I'm sure what I really feel about that yet,  maybe I['ll feel more once
the tests are done and maybe if I meet him...
  Oh well I'm just potterin around playing a computer game called The Dig
at the moment a  cd rom graphic adventure game-with digitized voice sfx,
it's really cool but I will be finished it soon.I have to get my CV done,
I hoping perhaps I can get a job at United Video.
  Oh well I hope everyone is good,

Bye...


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






From xmeff@aol.com Fri Jan 19 06:45:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: A new arrival
From: xmeff@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:45:20 -0500


Hi,

I'm new to the Psybernet.  I've been quiet since I initially joined this
list, like waiting for your eyes to adjust in a dimly lit area.  I heard
about the Psybernet from Walter through the Jungian psychology mailing list
(Aion).  This space is a bit different from what I envisioned.  There's a lot
of very personal material being aired here and I feel almost as if I'm
overhearing an intimate conversation in a mall or other public place.

Tama's message has somewhat of a Joycean quality.  By this, I mean, referring
to his book, The Artist as a Young Man, a story about discovery and
self-awareness.  Tama is one of those characters whose life is an open book.
 I admit though it's refreshing to see that kind of candor.

Other things are on my mind.  Does anyone recall the Artificial Intelligence
(AI) experiment in which researchers were trying to develop and refine a
computer (mostly software?) that responded to conversation just as a person
would?  I would suppose that the line between human response and simulated
human response is very blurry these days.  Or, is it?  Hmm . . .an
interesting question.  Can a boundary be drawn around the human element in
order for it to be tapped or are our links to the "collective unconscious"
something that will hinder our attempts to do so?  Certainly, in this respect
we are at the forefront of a new frontier.  

Part of the why behind the Psybernet project is defining how to proceed in
this new technology in which global distance is covered nearly
simultaneously.  Foremost of the issues is the cross cultural one.
 Communication cross culturally is difficult as it is, I mean, on a mass
scale.  Stereotypes and misconceptions abound.  I suppose this is one space
where the process of good communication can be enhanced.  I'm looking forward
to it.

Now onto the real reason I'm here.  Lately I've been thinking about the issue
of legal questions that a writer faces.  I'm not sure this is the right forum
for this but here goes.  I'm concerned about infringement of copyright laws.
 What are some guidelines for correctly quoting a work on the Internet?  What
use is permissible within the context of intellectual property?  Also, what
is considered plagiarism?  Where is the thin line we can trend between the
legal and the illegal with Internet discussion?  Is intent a deciding
characteristic, in other words, feigning innocence is not a defense against a
breach of law?  What about a misquote or using a paraphrase for your own
means, apart from the original context?  Asking too many questions makes me
sound paranoid.  I want to strive to do the right thing within this medium so
I'd appreciate any thoughtful help.

J.M. (John)




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Jan 22 00:56:41 1996
To: xmeff@aol.com
Subject: Re: A new arrival
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 11:56:41 GMT

On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 12:45:20 -0500, xmeff@aol.com wrote:

Hi John,

Welcome.

> I'm new to the Psybernet.  I've been quiet since I initially joined this
> list, like waiting for your eyes to adjust in a dimly lit area.  

Yes it has been very quiet here -- and it has been quite
personal.  I am not sure of the reasons for either.  Some
speculations are that it has a strong New Zealand origin and
right now it is bang in the middle of our summer holiday and that
is a silly season here.  I have never promoted this list on the
net -- it is purely word of mouth and some discussion here to
chance that has not led to a sense that there was a hurry to do
this.  However it is so quiet of late we may need to rethink.  

> Tama's message has somewhat of a Joycean quality.  By this, I mean, referring
> to his book, The Artist as a Young Man, a story about discovery and
> self-awareness.  Tama is one of those characters whose life is an open book.
>  I admit though it's refreshing to see that kind of candor.

Refreshing and also challenging -- I am never too sure how to
respond -- do I match the level of open honesty?  I don't really,
but at times perhaps a little.  I see it as one of the
"psybernetic" questions as to how we live together on an open
list such as this.  Thus we learn here about the questions of
relating here through experience.  Attending all the time to both
the broad implications of our writing and the reality of the
people here and the communication that _is_ happening (or the
lack of it!)

> Other things are on my mind.  Does anyone recall the Artificial Intelligence
> (AI) experiment in which researchers were trying to develop and refine a
> computer (mostly software?) that responded to conversation just as a person
> would?  I would suppose that the line between human response and simulated
> human response is very blurry these days.  Or, is it?  Hmm . . .an
> interesting question.  

I have played around with early "elisa" programs but have not
really heard how far they have gone.  It is interesting that the
early experiments were about counselling simulations -- I wonder
what that says about our collective unconscious?  We want our
computers to care?  Even "hal" in 2001 had that Carl Rogers tone
(the charicaturised one any way) 

> Can a boundary be drawn around the human element in
> order for it to be tapped or are our links to the "collective unconscious"
> something that will hinder our attempts to do so?  Certainly, in this respect
> we are at the forefront of a new frontier.  

I don't think it can be done.  They will neve be satisfying ly
human.  Just an opinion -- but I do think that there a huge are
that can be tapped in computer assisted counselling -- checking
language for all sorts of cues -- perhaps ones the counsellor can
programme in.  Searching for patterns etc.  

> Part of the why behind the Psybernet project is defining how to proceed in
> this new technology in which global distance is covered nearly
> simultaneously.  

yes.  That whole factor of time is a subject on its own.  I am
fond of comparing how time is structured in psychotherapy, into
weekly hours -- the enormous impact of that structure on the
process.  How does this new asynchronicity impact us?  

> Foremost of the issues is the cross cultural one.
>  Communication cross culturally is difficult as it is, I mean, on a mass
> scale.  Stereotypes and misconceptions abound.  

The question of what is real comes up.  In some ways this medium
has a reality of its own.  Perhaps the stereotypes and
misconceptions belong to the real world where all the flow of
text -- the imaginative, affective and cognitive reality is
somewhere behind the surface -- a depth that is revealed here in
text -- think of the word of literature -- it is only revealed
via text -- even film only reveals the cinematic interpretation
of it.  

Tama:  are you as open as this in everyday life?

> I suppose this is one space
> where the process of good communication can be enhanced.  I'm looking forward
> to it.

I hope we can make it good.


> Now onto the real reason I'm here.  Lately I've been thinking about the issue
> of legal questions that a writer faces.  I'm not sure this is the right forum
> for this but here goes. I'm concerned about infringement of copyright laws.

It is the right forum.  There may be some that will serve you
better -- but it is right on topic for this list -- and an area
that we have not explored enough in the past.  


I like the questions and have opinions -- not answers.  I'll
write some here now and more later.

>  What are some guidelines for correctly quoting a work on the Internet?  

I have a paper (in a file) somewhere on "style" -- which proposes
the form that footnotes should take when quoting material.  I
notice however that most people seem to invent their own way and
it all works OK.  Perhaps there is no correct way.  

> What
> use is permissible within the context of intellectual property?  Also, what
> is considered plagiarism?  Where is the thin line we can trend between the
> legal and the illegal with Internet discussion?  Is intent a deciding
> characteristic, in other words, feigning innocence is not a defense against a
> breach of law?  What about a misquote or using a paraphrase for your own
> means, apart from the original context?  Asking too many questions makes me
> sound paranoid.  I want to strive to do the right thing within this medium so
> I'd appreciate any thoughtful help.

Whose law?  is this message subject to the US or New Zealand
laws?  I see that breaches of "ethos and etiquette" are dealt
with by flames and debate and ways peculiar to the Internet such
as spamming and ignoring (kill files).  To what extent can a
writer in one country be taken to court in another?  For all that
there are some horrendous stories around of BBSs etc being shut
down.  But then there is some awful porn around -- but that
brings us into a overworn path and not one you raise.  

Do you have a particular example in mind John that concerns you?

Look forward to the discussion --

Walter 


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Feb 05 00:53:51 1996
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
Subject: Reassessment
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 11:53:51 GMT

Here & Now Group,

There are _two_ enrolments, and the group was meant to start in
an hour New Zealand time.  I am ready to lead the group, but
thought it better to enter into a dialogue here for a while and
postpone the group until we have some more takers, I have
mentioned this to the prospective two, and hope that they find
this OK under the circumstances.  It is very different here of
course  . . .  for all the silence we have had here, there are 62
members on this list.  It is not a Here & Now group, it has a
different function.  

Re assessment.  I have a sense that the people most likely to
enter into the Here & Now group are those who have had a good
experience in Psybernet Conference and who have developed trust
here -- enough trust to fork out money on the net.  The problem
in that case is that the Psybernet Conference has been to small.

And I am not surprised.  It is a very personal and broad group.
I am somehow very attached to it -- even if it is in a hiatus
like this.  I guess it has a history for me -- and perhaps for
others.  There is that whole silent majority who hang on in --
some for years.  

So I am going to re assess -- Psybernet, this Conference, and the
Here & Now group, and I hope that that will be of interest to
others, I would really appreciate some discussion on this as it
is a project I think is worth doing, but one that I find hard to
maintain.

I will post the current description of this list -- that is what
we are re assessing really, and also how it is run and promoted.

Just to finish on one idea that I have, and would like comments
on.   

Perhaps Psybernet would work best if it had one purpose -- to
bring together people who want to be in Psybernet Small Groups.
A sort of meeting place for that purpose.  Not the whole gamut of
discussion about the psychology of cyberspace -- but just that
one thing -- a stepping stone to the groups.  

Some of the other functions of Psybernet are well covered in
other lists eg Net Group Dynamics, alt.psychology.jung etc.


What do you think?


Walter.


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Feb 05 00:57:36 1996
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
Subject: Good bye to this?
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 11:57:36 GMT

Hi All,

This is the description of the list -- is it one of the factors
in the hiatus?  In the slow trafic here?  If the list were to be
more widely promoted should it change first?


Walter


-=-=-=-=  Psybernet Conference (Mailing List)  -=-=-=-=  
     
We aim to experience and explore how we are effected by the new
electronic media. Psybernet Conference facilitates the conscious
experience of the psyche as it evolves in cyberspace.

Topics include: 

The art of leadership in communication networks.  The impact on
organisations of tele-computing.  Creating people-enhancing
environments in cyberspace.  Gender issues in cyberspace.
Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal
identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  How these
psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace. 

The range of discussion here is very broad, and this is desirable
as it enables us to learn about our experience of the medium.  It
is a place where the development of relationships around these
interests is an important part of the work.  Announcements about
Psybernet Workshops and groups will be made in this Conference
from time to time.
 
The Conference is facilitated by Walter Logeman, no censorship or
editing has taken place, however discussion of how the Conference
is facilitated are integral to the Conference's purpose. The
Conference is archived on the BBS, and Internet users can get
these from the Psybernet Library, see the WWW pages for details.


The Psybernet Conference is available as an Echo to BBSes.

To join the Psybernet Conference, (Mailing List), send a message
to:  

listserv@link.equinox.gen.nz, in the body of the text write:   

sub PSYBER-L

Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive a welcome
message by return mail.  This can take up to 2 hours on this
system.

To leave the list follow the instructions above and replace sub
with unsub. 

     ------------------== Contact points  ==--------------
     Psybernet, Walter Logeman  (Sysop)
     Bulletin Board:            +64-3-365-6876
     Fax                              64-3-377-1207
     Answerphone             +64-3-377-1206
     Fidonet:                          3:770/270
     Internet                          walterl@chch.planet.co.nz 
     WWW http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------

     To see a world in a grain of sand
     And a heaven in a wild flower,
     Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
     And eternity in an hour.

                                      Auguries of Innocence,
                                  William Blake  1757-1827

----------------------------------------------------------------



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Mon Feb 05 02:49:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: feelings and wants
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 08:49:43 -0500


The sixty-two:

I don't really hate to invoke what I'm about to invoke, but that's because
instead of 'it' being a dirty word it represents in part my livelihood.
OTOH, it's a bit loaded up, especially here in cyberspace where I recently
read:

"Everybody on the internet is running for cover now that the MARKETING
people have discovered it."

(Yes...we have! tee hee)

I feel there is a fundamental marketing proposition that bears upon the
promotion and full activation of a discussion list such as Psyber-L. It is
perhaps necessary for it to be an ongoing activity.

Since this specific medium is driven by participation and because there is
a critical mass of day in and day out interest that keeps the energy level
up enough to keep the ball rolling, sts, then one perspective, the
marketing one, requires that 'new blood' be continually entering the list;
making a 'trial' as it were.

Can marketing make up for a falling participation? Yes. Can it compensate
for a constant turn over of a group? No, finally if there is not enough
'there' there, then the group will stall in its tracks.

I do volunteer my services as an online promoter to this group. (I have a
response to the wording of the promotional posting as it exists now which I
will save for another post.)

***

My heart grew heavy as events in the beginning of December demonstrated
that the critical mass of Psyber-L had grown heavy enough in its path to
slow down until its inertial resting point was reached. I've archived posts
to the group since I joined it in the end of July and one can see that the
threads which wove themselves nicely through October  could not do so
effectively by mid-November.

Of course: it is people who weave threads!

Efforts to jump start the Psyber-L group through posting provocative new
subject matter failed. :-(

Walter, you moved into a semi non-participatory status as the holidays
rolled around. I'm grateful for your communication of the context and how
you and 'it' felt on the other side of your reconsideration(s)...
This group is going through a necessary transition now; and, it is being
moved in part by your (WL's) reappraisal.

***

In the Net-Dynamics list there has been very dense and robust discussion
about the nature of mailing lists. Lots of clues have been dropped there.
Perhaps Psyber-L became too friendly, too undirected, too 'uni-functional',
etc.  (?)

I do know that it seemed to serve a social function largely and not a task
oriented function. For myself this was tremendously engaging because it was
charged with the riches of the participants who were fearless in bringing
their treasures to the group...but, my intuition tells me that it was not a
unique enough function, and, that given the social whirl of the holidays,
this need for engaging chat was met elsewhere and more effectively, (as it
should be!) outside of the group.

Whatever...in the late fall participant's priorities existed in such a
state that many received the postings but few and fewer decided to join in
the discussion.

I would like to suggest to the group to think about this!

What did you feel about your participation here in November and what do you
feel about it now?

What do you want 'out' of Psyber-L?

***

My own answers will follow.

Best and better to all,

Stephen


Everyone is kneaded out of the same dough but not baked in the same oven.

                                - Yiddish proverb

=========================================
Stephen Calhoun*Cleveland,Ohio*hoon@apk.net
=========================================
*http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html*
new & enhanced for 1996 using JAVA(tm)=========






From hoon@apk.net Mon Feb 05 06:11:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: feel about your participation (then)
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 12:11:15 -0500


Greetings!

>>What did you feel about your participation here in November ?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I felt my efforts had failed and wondered why; after my last questing posts
went nowhere. It felt as if I had been to indulgent of my own
preoccupations and this had left not enough room for others to enter,
re-enter this space. OTOH, why be paranoid when I was trying. Also, threads
that had a lot of momentum at the end of October just died. I thought
active participants had become very busy in RL!

But, then I and Tama became the only active oldline posters with some input
from Walter and that was it for the end of 1995. I felt at a loss to
explain to myself and felt the loss...wondered then if the space had become
too personal for others, although for myself, Tama and Walter it seemed to
be a strength!

Meanwhile Charles C. came in with a provocative set of posts (12/3-12/4)
which included the following:

>If I had a wish for Psyber-L, it would be that psyche (a butterfly, no?)
>should spread her wings, that her preferred discourse is poetry: not
>meaning by that a discourse of short lines or rhymes, but a discourse of
>deep metaphor and rich, resonant concreteness, a verbal incarnation of
>spirit and soul in the suchness of things, a praising, a continuing record
>of epiphanies...

>        I am a bird of the garden beyond time,
>        locked for a moment into this cage of ribs.
>
>Charles
>Charles Cameron
>*
>hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"

> In some ways, in other words, this
>Game is ideally suited to the web: and while Herman Hesse was able to
>conceive of it and describe it in his novel fifty odd years ago, we can now
>actually design and play a Game that very much resembles his fictional one.

>the effect is that a Game played via email can
>have quite a powerful impact on one's everyday life.  It's like having a
>very deliberate structure into which to pour one's dreams.
>
>And since a completed Game is itself a complex web of ideas -- images,
>texts, and musics

Hmmm. Should we discuss designing a game for *here*?

Stephen

****

(my early december  posts included:)

(1)

>I would think that there are varieties of softly structured projects that
>could be done through the list. One idea might be to begin a quasi-active
>imagination using the group. I wondered about this months ago after
>joining Psyber-L when we discussed the *Goddess*. Could she be contacted
>using the list/group?
>
>In RL there is a fine line between the fantasy role playing and the active
>imagination which proceeds down the cellar stairs; so, at the time, I
>couldn't think of a way to deal with what could be a powerful process for
>some.

(2)

>I've been wrestling with the projection of identity and personality and
>psyche in this medium and I still don't feel many of my questions have the
>beginnings of an answer, not even much to latch onto.
>
>One thought that does seem clear is that: a tremendous amount of creative
>energy is being poured into the internet; a tremendous amount of desire; a
>tremendous amount of talking about one's self on this "as if" basis,
>
>as if what?
>
>as if we ARE all connected
>as if we ARE indelibly creative
>as if we ARE fundamentally spiritual
>as if we ARE wishing to be heard
>as if we ARE trying to see *soul* beyond the "post-modern"

(3)

>Yes. What is at risk, really? example: I could disappear, an easier option
>here than in my RL social circumstance.
>
>When I came to Psyber-L I found out quickly, especially with the prelim of
>having visited the psybernet web page, that there was something very
>sympatico going on. It gibed with my desire too: to turn on the computer,
>type a bit, and send out a thought important to me, damn, to my soul and
>my spirit, and see what happened.
>
>This is a good place to send out such thoughts. Thus I serve my Self. I
>can't emphasize enough that it's being easier here is the biggest turn on
>for me; in fact, it helps me turn *me* on literally.
>>What do you want 'out' of Psyber-L?






From hoon@apk.net Mon Feb 05 06:11:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: feel about participation now?
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 12:11:34 -0500


what do you feel about it now?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'd like to see some *players* join here to collaborate on some unique
iteration.

My own bias is toward infusing with eros and webbing and intuition and
music and poetry and whatever is relating us in the here & now. <g:WL>

Yet, it can't be predicated on hoon@apk posting like a madman...

right?

HooN

=========================================
Stephen Calhoun*Cleveland,Ohio*hoon@apk.net
=========================================
*http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html*
new & enhanced for 1996======================






From hoon@apk.net Mon Feb 05 06:14:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Good bye to this?
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 12:14:02 -0500


>If the list were to be
>more widely promoted should it change first?

it is as we type!


>-=-=-=-=  Psybernet Conference (Mailing List)  -=-=-=-=
>
>We aim to experience and explore how we are effected by the new
>electronic media. Psybernet Conference facilitates the conscious
>experience of the psyche as it evolves in cyberspace.

Wonder what this really means as fas as facilitation goes? How about:

"P-C faciliates expressions of the consciousness of its participants..."

>
>Topics include:
>
>The art of leadership in communication networks.  The impact on
>organisations of tele-computing.  Creating people-enhancing
>environments in cyberspace.  Gender issues in cyberspace.

Being done elsewhere me thinks.

>Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal
>identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  How these
>psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace.

Yes! But if we off load psychological then we are circling:

"how imagination, archetypes, dreams, myths and the unconscious relate
(themselves!) to cyberspace..."

> the development of relationships around these
>interests is an important part of the work.

I've noted after nine months in cyberspace...that many of the old timers
value most the people they've met through this medium and the ongoing
relationships with the far flung correspondants and, should they meet
f2f...spectacular communing.

>     To see a world in a grain of sand
>     And a heaven in a wild flower,
>     Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
>     And eternity in an hour.
>
>                                      Auguries of Innocence,
>                                  William Blake  1757-1827
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------

Stephen

Everyone is kneaded out of the same dough but not baked in the same oven.

                                - Yiddish proverb

=========================================
Stephen Calhoun*Cleveland,Ohio*hoon@apk.net
=========================================
*http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html*
new & enhanced for 1996 using JAVA(tm)=========






From hipbone@earthlink.net Mon Feb 05 14:30:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Reassessment et al.
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 17:30:44 -0800


Greetings, all:

Walter has posed some very sweeping questions about the list, and Stephen
Calhoun specifically asks:

>>What did you feel about your participation here in November ?

I think it's only natural that lists of a somewhat contemplative sort have
quiet times, so I wasn't too surprised when things were a little slow.  I'd
hoped that Walter might perhaps comment on the posts of mine which Stephen
mentioned today, but we were approaching Christmas, and I know that I have
times when I can't get to all the stuff I'd like to comment on...  So I
guess my overall sense is that the list is probably doing just what it
should.

I've also watched one other list I'm on go through a months-long quiet
period -- and the list-owner's attempts in that case to "reformulate" what
the list was about seem to have been, if anything, counterproductive.  This
is not to say that Walter shouldn't try a new approach, just that
list-silence isn't in and of itself a mark of anything being wrong.

>> what do you feel about it now?

Ready to see what comes down the pike...

*

Getting to Walter's questions about the list and his Here & Now Group, I
have the sense that if PSYBER-L is to attract those who would like to
discuss psyche and cyberspace, that idea needs to be central.

The Here & Now Group is another project of our esteemed list-owner, and may
well draw interest from some list-members -- it would be astonishing if it
didn't.  But to my mind, that's a different project, with a different
dynamic, and I believe the two sets of *motive* need to be kept distinct.

Walter acknowledges this:

> It is very different here of course  . . .  for all the silence we have
> had here, there are 62 members on this list.  It is not a Here &
> Now group, it has a different function.

and yet he also writes:

> Re assessment.  I have a sense that the people most likely to enter
> into the Here & Now group are those who have had a good
> experience in Psybernet Conference and who have developed trust
> here -- enough trust to fork out money on the net.  The problem in
> that case is that the Psybernet Conference has been to small.

My suggestion is that this *isn't* a PSYBER-L problem, but a Here and Now
Group problem (again, I'm trying to keep the motives distinct here), so
that what Walter was really getting at would be more clearly expressed if
he'd written:

::  H&N's problem in that case is that the Psybernet Conference has
::  been too small...

If I'm right about this (and I'm trying to be tactful, too), PSYBER-L isn't
in need of a change, PSYBER-L should continue as at present, and it's H&N
that needs the marketing help...  *some* of which could naturally arise on
PSYBER-L, and some elsewhere.

But making changes to PSYBER-L in response to an H&N need seems to me
liable to torpedo PSYBER-L, whereas making changes to H&N would be more
likely to have the desired effect...

*

Making changes to H&N?  What do I mean?

It's the "marketing" side I'm thinking of here.  And my guess is that H&N
and PSYBER-L need two separate "through-lines" for people to follow:

A web page about "online / group / therapy / jungian" (keywords, not a
phrase, intended to catch the eye of people using Lycos, AltaVista and
other search engines) -- for those who are looking for H&N whether they
know it or not >>> which recommends subscribing to PSYBER-L as a possible
means for developing the trust Walter talks about >>> leading to eventual
H&N membership...

And a web page about "psyche / internet / cyberspace / jung" -- for those
who are looking for PSYBER-L >>> which leads to PSYBER-L subscription >>>
which can then lead in some cases to an interest in H&N also...

I know Walter's web pages already have both these strands in them, but I'm
arguing for making them very *clear* and *distinct* strands, in a way
that's not there yet...

*

I'd like to emphasize that all this is intended as helpful -- rather than
"critical" -- criticism, and I trust it will be received in that sense...

I'll be posting some comments on Stephen's suggestion that we design a game
for the list shortly...

Cordially,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Feb 05 15:39:53 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Just a Quick What do I really Want?
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:39:53 +1300 (NZDT)


Well,
You kinda know me,  well you know I'm not afraid of bareing all,  sending
it all out in a pleothora of me,  not analytical as such,  well for me some
of the subject material of CyberL just flew a bit too high over my head,
comprehension did not always dawn on me,  I was and am more interested in
talking about life.Although I think my postings should probably be in a
place more suited to them.The time I have had here is great,  I think
Cyber-L is a great jumping off point,  a stepping stone as people
say.Walter I would like to be involved in your here and now group-I will
later send a more direct letter to you.Hopeful my mother is getting monet
from the government to by a pc for her garden design buisness,  that way I
will be set up at home with modem.
 Hey Steve you put in a lot of constructive ground work  & I thinks it is
GREAT!!
  I really LOVED the stuff Charles C had to say they were awesome,  I
really like the idea of turning things into a realized imaginative creative
game.

>Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal
>identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  How these
>psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace.

Yes! But if we off load psychological then we are circling:

"how imagination, archetypes, dreams, myths and the unconscious relate
(themselves!) to cyberspace..."

> the development of relationships around these
>interests is an important part of the work.
 Ye Ha-this stuff is what i really want this gets me ticking lkike a time
bomb ready to exsplode into infinty and beyond-I say let it begin-Here and
now I come!!

Well folks better get moving have got a mother waiting + have to pick up
another Japense homestay girl.
I'll be in touch in the next couple of days.BYE


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                         New Zealand
                                *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Feb 05 18:29:49 1996
To: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Subject: Defining the list.  [Was: Good bye to this?]
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 05:29:49 GMT


Stephen,

Good to read your emails in the list.  So much to respond to all
of a sudden!  The work you did on the description of the list
grabbed me instantly:

> >-=-=-=-=  Psybernet Conference (Mailing List)  -=-=-=-=
> >
> >We aim to experience and explore how we are effected by the new
> >electronic media. Psybernet Conference facilitates the conscious
> >experience of the psyche as it evolves in cyberspace.
> 
> Wonder what this really means as fas as facilitation goes? How about:
> 
> "P-C facilitates expressions of the consciousness of its participants..."

Yes  . . .  I had in mind that it also helped to make the
unconscious experience of cyberspace conscious.  My use of the
word "psyche" is to highlight that.  I think the list does that
still as we grapple with the silence here.  I see a strong
connection with the silent subscribers and the unconscious -- a
parallel process . . . .

How about:

"P-C aims to make the unconscious conscious, including the
unconscious impact of the medium..."

I like that wording better . . .  though I doubt that it should
be there if the list has a more unified function.

> >Topics include:
> >
> >The art of leadership in communication networks.  The impact on
> >organisations of tele-computing.  Creating people-enhancing
> >environments in cyberspace.  Gender issues in cyberspace.
> 
> Being done elsewhere me thinks.

Exactly.  

> >Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal
> >identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  How these
> >psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace.
> 
> Yes! But if we off load psychological then we are circling:
> 
> "how imagination, archetypes, dreams, myths and the unconscious relate
> (themselves!) to cyberspace..."

I am not sure what you mean by your comment here.  I think the
whole "meta" aspect can go!  Why not just:

"Topics include
Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal
identity, and the unconscious."

> > the development of relationships around these
> >interests is an important part of the work.
> 
> I've noted after nine months in cyberspace...that many of the old timers
> value most the people they've met through this medium and the ongoing
> relationships with the far flung correspondents and, should they meet
> f2f...spectacular communing.

Yes -- the relationship aspect is important.  Perhaps The most.
Hence I'd like to see us keep the discussion broad as well.  


One area I think might be important is this bit from the old
description:

> Announcements about Psybernet Workshops and groups will be made > in this Conference from time to time.

I'd go so far as :

"The main purpose of the list is to have a lively meeting place
that leads on to more focussed Psybernet Small Groups.
Announcements about these Groups will be made in the Psybernet
List.  List members will be kept informed about the development
of these groups. "

I like this sharper focus.  It makes the Psybernet project more
unashamedly "for a fee" . . . Psybernet List is the mall and the
Psybernet Small Groups are the shops.

Thanks for you efforts Stephen

Walter 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Feb 05 19:15:35 1996
To: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Reassessment et al.
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 06:15:35 GMT

Charles,

Hot on my last post I see this one from you arrives Charles, and
suddenly I want to rethink everything again!  

1.  I realise this list is primarily what it is -- 

> I
> have the sense that if PSYBER-L is to attract those who would like to
> discuss psyche and cyberspace, that idea needs to be central.


Psyche and Cyberspace 

Perhaps this is the central thing and if so then the whole warm
up to the Psybernet Small Groups (not just the Here & Now group)
could be on another list.  

That sounds good.  

****

The following is fascinating and very much on topic for the
Psyche & Cyberspace aspect of the list -- using our experience
here as a basis for learning . . . .

> >>What did you feel about your participation here in November ?
> 
> I think it's only natural that lists of a somewhat contemplative sort have
> quiet times, so I wasn't too surprised when things were a little slow.  I'd
> hoped that Walter might perhaps comment on the posts of mine which Stephen
> mentioned today, but we were approaching Christmas, and I know that I have
> times when I can't get to all the stuff I'd like to comment on...  So I
> guess my overall sense is that the list is probably doing just what it
> should.

Perhaps it has.  I want to mention the seasonal thing again --
New Zealanders are only now returning to any semblance of sanity
after the silly season.

> I've also watched one other list I'm on go through a months-long quiet
> period -- and the list-owner's attempts in that case to "reformulate" what
> the list was about seem to have been, if anything, counterproductive.  This
> is not to say that Walter shouldn't try a new approach, just that
> list-silence isn't in and of itself a mark of anything being wrong.

Right.  However, in some way I _want_ the list to lead to the
Psybernet Small Groups  . . .  that has always been inherent in
the Psybernet project.  It is not just that I want to run groups
for a fee -- Others might do that too, learning how to do that is
important ... the list has been a learning ground for me in how
to be psychologically present here -- and for others too.

So can Psyber-L do both?

Be a place to experientially explore Psyche and Cyberspace 

AND 

Be the jumping off point to groups for a fee --- the mall for the
PSGs.


> The Here & Now Group is another project of our esteemed list-owner, and may
> well draw interest from some list-members -- it would be astonishing if it
> didn't.  But to my mind, that's a different project, with a different
> dynamic, and I believe the two sets of *motive* need to be kept distinct.

Yes.  I have never seen them as very distinct -- I have a notion
of one Psybernet project with several lists, even many! lists
with the Psyber-L as the front door.

> Walter acknowledges this:
> 
> > It is very different here of course  . . .  for all the silence we have
> > had here, there are 62 members on this list.  It is not a Here &
> > Now group, it has a different function.

I hold by that distinction too . . . the Here & Now would be very
different from the public list.


> and yet he also writes:
> 
> > Re assessment.  I have a sense that the people most likely to enter
> > into the Here & Now group are those who have had a good
> > experience in Psybernet Conference and who have developed trust
> > here -- enough trust to fork out money on the net.  The problem in
> > that case is that the Psybernet Conference has been to small.

> My suggestion is that this *isn't* a PSYBER-L problem, but a Here and Now
> Group problem (again, I'm trying to keep the motives distinct here), so
> that what Walter was really getting at would be more clearly expressed if
> he'd written:

> ::  H&N's problem in that case is that the Psybernet Conference has
> ::  been too small...

Good point.  I am with you here . . . I have been fusing the two.
It is partly that I have a total Psybernet vision.  It is
Psybernet as a whole that has the problem!  The vision is OK, but
it needs to be a financially sound scheme with people paying to
go into groups or doing personal explorations or training.  The
running of a list such as Psyber-L without the other activities
is not viable from an _energy_ point of view on my part.  For a
long time I have benefited from being part of the learning and
wonderful interaction -- however I always saw it as a part of the
larger professional project.  

> If I'm right about this (and I'm trying to be tactful, too), PSYBER-L isn't
> in need of a change, PSYBER-L should continue as at present, and it's H&N
> that needs the marketing help...  *some* of which could naturally arise on
> PSYBER-L, and some elsewhere.
> 
> But making changes to PSYBER-L in response to an H&N need seems to me
> liable to torpedo PSYBER-L, whereas making changes to H&N would be more
> likely to have the desired effect...

I like what you are saying . . . we seem to be onto it, if not
quite there.

> Making changes to H&N?  What do I mean?
> 
> It's the "marketing" side I'm thinking of here.  And my guess is that H&N
> and PSYBER-L need two separate "through-lines"

You go on to clarify:

ONE:

> A web page about "online / group / therapy / jungian" (keywords, not a
> phrase, intended to catch the eye of people using Lycos, AltaVista and
> other search engines) -- for those who are looking for H&N whether they
> know it or not >>> which recommends subscribing to PSYBER-L as a possible
> means for developing the trust Walter talks about >>> leading to eventual
> H&N membership...

And TWO

> And a web page about "psyche / internet / cyberspace / jung" -- for those
> who are looking for PSYBER-L >>> which leads to PSYBER-L subscription >>>
> which can then lead in some cases to an interest in H&N also...
> 
> I know Walter's web pages already have both these strands in them, but I'm
> arguing for making them very *clear* and *distinct* strands, in a way
> that's not there yet...

I agree . . ..

> I'd like to emphasize that all this is intended as helpful 

and it is Charles, and also, I think the stuff of Psyber-L as we
know it.  These sorts of questions are central to this list and
the whole project.

I must have another look at that Pre Christmas post of yours
Charles!



Walter 


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Feb 06 00:38:05 1996
To: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: Just a Quick What do I really Want?
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 11:38:05 GMT

Tama Tama Tama Tama,

> Well,
> You kinda know me,  well you know I'm not afraid of bareing all,  sending
> it all out in a pleothora of me,  not analytical as such,  . . . 

And good for you.

> I was and am more interested in
> talking about life.

Life . . . that is what it is always about . . .even if we get it
a little confused and theoretical . . . at the bottom we are on
about life . . . Stephen is perhaps calling it fractal eros . . .
but I'd say it is life . . . would that be right?

> Although I think my postings should probably be in a
> place more suited to them.

They are fine just here by me!  I like them.  I might be wanting
to reassess but what ever happens I want the life to be here.
You know, some of your posts, and some of Daniels, now Josh On,
and one by Rebecka called "Sweet Thing" stand out for me as being
little gems.  Perhaps someone could repost them, just to give you
an idea. 

> The time I have had here is great,  I think
> Cyber-L is a great jumping off point,  a stepping stone as people
> say.Walter I would like to be involved in your here and now group-I will
> later send a more direct letter to you.Hopeful my mother is getting monet
> from the government to by a pc for her garden design buisness,  that way I
> will be set up at home with modem.

Sounds like that will make it all a bit more viable . . . great
that you want to be part of this project.

***

I wrote adding to what Steve said . . .
> > the development of relationships around these [psychological ]
> >interests is an important part of the work.

and you say . . . taking it all to the limit:

>  Ye Ha-this stuff is what i really want this gets me ticking lkike a time
> bomb ready to exsplode into infinty and beyond-I say let it begin-Here and
> now I come!!

You are a dag!



Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Feb 06 01:41:49 1996
To: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Subject: Re: feelings and wants
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 12:41:49 GMT

Steve,

On Sun, 4 Feb 1996 08:49:43 -0500, Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
wrote:

> The sixty-two:

I am lost . . . what is the 62?

> I don't really hate to invoke what I'm about to invoke, but that's because
> instead of 'it' being a dirty word it represents in part my livelihood.
> OTOH, it's a bit loaded up, especially here in cyberspace where I recently
> read:

> "Everybody on the internet is running for cover now that the MARKETING
> people have discovered it."
> 
> (Yes...we have! tee hee)

I have from my first glimpse of the medium wanted it to be some
sort of extension of my professional life . . . so "it" is not a
dirty word for me either . . . but it does push buttons for me .
. .  I don't want to be seen as being here as some sort of money
grubber.  The fear of that has perhaps had a counter productive
effect on my work in cyberspace.  For me to be fully productive,
effective, and viable here it has to draw me away from RL -- and
that means it has to pay more, cost less and generate enough
money to pay people to do more of the work that I cant quite do.


> I feel there is a fundamental marketing proposition that bears upon the
> promotion and full activation of a discussion list such as Psyber-L. It is
> perhaps necessary for it to be an ongoing activity.

Definitely.  It has come up a bit too in the list -- infonomics
-- money and psychotherapy - etc.  I see the FEE as a tool for
creating boundaries.  The price of a ticket does not only pay for
the production, it also makes one a member -- one who belongs --
who is committed etc.  

> Since this specific medium is driven by participation and because there is
> a critical mass of day in and day out interest that keeps the energy level
> up enough to keep the ball rolling, sts, then one perspective, the
> marketing one, requires that 'new blood' be continually entering the list;
> making a 'trial' as it were.

Hmmm  I am not sure what you mean here.  In some way I like the
idea that by simply doing what we do well the critical mass will
be here -- will arrive.  

I was impressed by Charles's idea of making distinct paths into
Psybernet -- crisper -- more focussed entry into what could
actually be the same basic focal point.

Is that what you mean by "marketing"  I do. 

Ron, I hope you are there and well!  You are somewhat of an
expert on this . . . 

In a way we create a "place" a whole structure with Words!  Well
I suppose words are one of the main tools -- what else is there?
Money is one definite important other factor -- and how we use
time and silence are some more. . .  is that marketing?  

I think my somewhat restrained approach to marketing    the
silence if you like is also a tool . . .  perhaps OK ???

> Can marketing make up for a falling participation? Yes. Can it compensate
> for a constant turn over of a group? No, finally if there is not enough
> 'there' there, then the group will stall in its tracks.

Right.

> I do volunteer my services as an online promoter to this group. (I have a
> response to the wording of the promotional posting as it exists now which I
> will save for another post.)

Thanks I found that helpful,  I think we are clarifying a lot
here.

> ***

> My heart grew heavy as events in the beginning of December demonstrated
> that the critical mass of Psyber-L had grown heavy enough in its path to
> slow down until its inertial resting point was reached. I've archived posts
> to the group since I joined it in the end of July and one can see that the
> threads which wove themselves nicely through October  could not do so
> effectively by mid-November.

And notice how everyone has had a different response to that
hiatus.  It is not one thing such a silence. . . it is part of
the life of the list.  Yes its life . . . 

I had not seen it like that but now I am getting all Zen and
valuing the spaces.  Gregory Bateson-ish too -- what does no-mail
tell us! 

> Of course: it is people who weave threads!
> 
> Efforts to jump start the Psyber-L group through posting provocative new
> subject matter failed. :-(

Maybe not . . . posting for the sake of jump-starting the group
might not have achieved what you wanted.  But what have you
learnt from that?  Maybe something quite psybernetic?  There is a
lot to be learnt from silence.  Has anyone seen that book about
group process with the picture of the meeting on the front?  It
explains inside the cover that it is a meeting of the Paris peace
talks (?) which holds the record for the longest silence in a
group.  

Now that would be something -- how long can an Internet group
have no postings and still be a group?

> Walter, you moved into a semi non-participatory status as the holidays
> rolled around. I'm grateful for your communication of the context . . . 

You can see it is not really non participation . . . you'd be
surprised how often on my marathon bush walk my mind wandered
around group process both here in cyberspace and in the groups I
am planning to run this year.  The holiday helped.

There is a problem though with me having this Psybernet project
as well as the new RL one -- I am very stretched.  Full of life
though.  

It is wonderful to have completed the mailout of the brochure for
groups, and also to be getting the paint on the walls -- such a
symbolic thing to do -- to paint the walls.


> and how
> you and 'it' felt on the other side of your reconsideration(s)...
> This group is going through a necessary transition now; and, it is being
> moved in part by your (WL's) reappraisal.

It is going through something . . .  lets watch what "it" does.
That is one thing I got from Stanley's participation here -- some
may recall him . . . is that we don't control much at all --
things, events everything has its own life and its own gods that
are at work.   

Back to the goddess of the net . . . it is over to her!  As you
say Steve, can we hear her?

> ***
> 
> In the Net-Dynamics list there has been very dense and robust discussion
> about the nature of mailing lists. Lots of clues have been dropped there.
> Perhaps Psyber-L became too friendly, too undirected, too 'uni-functional',
> etc.  (?)

Perhaps.  It is not dead yet though.

> I do know that it seemed to serve a social function largely and not a task
> oriented function. For myself this was tremendously engaging because it was
> charged with the riches of the participants who were fearless in bringing
> their treasures to the group...but, my intuition tells me that it was not a
> unique enough function, . . . .

Is the task inherent in that social function?  I think so.
Somewhere in this current correspondence with you me Charles Tama
and the silent majority we are simply relating.  The content is
about our process but our process is also part of our task here
-- am I being too obscure.

In other words socialising here while we watch ourselves is to
"become conscious of the unconscious"  ways the media is shaping
out life here.  That is our task -- at least in Psybernet as we
have known it.

***

> What did you feel about your participation here in November and what do you
> feel about it now?

I was fairly quiet during November -- I read the list more than
wrote -- I felt good that it had some life without me there!  It
was in October that I wrote more about Psybernet Small Groups . .
. I was more or less letting the list do its thing and thinking
about groups, how to get the small - for a fee- facilitated
groups going.  Getting the plan for the Here & Now out -- that
was my Psybernet work in the latter part organisational
development the year.  As well as brewing up the energy to lease
and set up the Harley Chambers Group Training Room.  

I feel good about the whole lot!  The group room is next door to
where Stuart and Barry work, both of whom are sometime
participants here.  It is in that room that later I will be
giving a talk about the Psybernet WWW pages. . .  I do get these
things done eventually.  

Taking about the WWW.  It is those pages that perhaps need the
updating more than the Psyber-L description.  That is the major
marketing tool Psybernet has.  People using the search engines as
Charles said.

> What do you want 'out' of Psyber-L?

As the list owner. . . I want Psyber-L  to be the main hall, the
jumping off point, a vital place, a meeting place, full of
intrigue about small groups, educative about the potential for
professional work on the net, have credibility as is suited to
the net, ie virtual authenticity -- help Psybernet a sort of
tavistock of cyberspace.  I want Psyber-L to let us know what it
wants.  I want it to find its niche.


Thanks Steve for the invitations and offers . . .


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Feb 06 01:48:56 1996
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz 
Subject: Re: Defining the list.  [Was: Good bye to this?]
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 12:48:56 GMT

Stephen,

Good to read your emails in the list.  So much to respond to all
of a sudden!  The work you did on the description of the list
grabbed me instantly:

> >-=-=-=-=  Psybernet Conference (Mailing List)  -=-=-=-=
> >
> >We aim to experience and explore how we are effected by the new
> >electronic media. Psybernet Conference facilitates the conscious
> >experience of the psyche as it evolves in cyberspace.
> 
> Wonder what this really means as fas as facilitation goes? How about:
> 
> "P-C facilitates expressions of the consciousness of its participants..."

Yes  . . .  I had in mind that it also helped to make the
unconscious experience of cyberspace conscious.  My use of the
word "psyche" is to highlight that.  I think the list does that
still as we grapple with the silence here.  I see a strong
connection with the silent subscribers and the unconscious -- a
parallel process . . . .

How about:

"P-C aims to make the unconscious conscious, including the
unconscious impact of the medium..."

I like that wording better . . .  though I doubt that it should
be there if the list has a more unified function.

> >Topics include:
> >
> >The art of leadership in communication networks.  The impact on
> >organisations of tele-computing.  Creating people-enhancing
> >environments in cyberspace.  Gender issues in cyberspace.
> 
> Being done elsewhere me thinks.

Exactly.  

> >Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal
> >identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  How these
> >psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace.
> 
> Yes! But if we off load psychological then we are circling:
> 
> "how imagination, archetypes, dreams, myths and the unconscious relate
> (themselves!) to cyberspace..."

I am not sure what you mean by your comment here.  I think the
whole "meta" aspect can go!  Why not just:

"Topics include
Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal
identity, and the unconscious."

> > the development of relationships around these
> >interests is an important part of the work.
> 
> I've noted after nine months in cyberspace...that many of the old timers
> value most the people they've met through this medium and the ongoing
> relationships with the far flung correspondents and, should they meet
> f2f...spectacular communing.

Yes -- the relationship aspect is important.  Perhaps The most.
Hence I'd like to see us keep the discussion broad as well.  


One area I think might be important is this bit from the old
description:

> Announcements about Psybernet Workshops and groups will be made > in this Conference from time to time.

I'd go so far as :

"The main purpose of the list is to have a lively meeting place
that leads on to more focussed Psybernet Small Groups.
Announcements about these Groups will be made in the Psybernet
List.  List members will be kept informed about the development
of these groups. "

I like this sharper focus.  It makes the Psybernet project more
unashamedly "for a fee" . . . Psybernet List is the mall and the
Psybernet Small Groups are the shops.

Thanks for you efforts Stephen

Walter 


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Feb 06 01:50:21 1996
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz 
Subject: Re: Reassessment et al.
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 12:50:21 GMT


Charles,

Hot on my last post I see this one from you arrives Charles, and
suddenly I want to rethink everything again!  

1.  I realise this list is primarily what it is -- 

> I
> have the sense that if PSYBER-L is to attract those who would like to
> discuss psyche and cyberspace, that idea needs to be central.


Psyche and Cyberspace 

Perhaps this is the central thing and if so then the whole warm
up to the Psybernet Small Groups (not just the Here & Now group)
could be on another list.  

That sounds good.  

****

The following is fascinating and very much on topic for the
Psyche & Cyberspace aspect of the list -- using our experience
here as a basis for learning . . . .

> >>What did you feel about your participation here in November ?
> 
> I think it's only natural that lists of a somewhat contemplative sort have
> quiet times, so I wasn't too surprised when things were a little slow.  I'd
> hoped that Walter might perhaps comment on the posts of mine which Stephen
> mentioned today, but we were approaching Christmas, and I know that I have
> times when I can't get to all the stuff I'd like to comment on...  So I
> guess my overall sense is that the list is probably doing just what it
> should.

Perhaps it has.  I want to mention the seasonal thing again --
New Zealanders are only now returning to any semblance of sanity
after the silly season.

> I've also watched one other list I'm on go through a months-long quiet
> period -- and the list-owner's attempts in that case to "reformulate" what
> the list was about seem to have been, if anything, counterproductive.  This
> is not to say that Walter shouldn't try a new approach, just that
> list-silence isn't in and of itself a mark of anything being wrong.

Right.  However, in some way I _want_ the list to lead to the
Psybernet Small Groups  . . .  that has always been inherent in
the Psybernet project.  It is not just that I want to run groups
for a fee -- Others might do that too, learning how to do that is
important ... the list has been a learning ground for me in how
to be psychologically present here -- and for others too.

So can Psyber-L do both?

Be a place to experientially explore Psyche and Cyberspace 

AND 

Be the jumping off point to groups for a fee --- the mall for the
PSGs.


> The Here & Now Group is another project of our esteemed list-owner, and may
> well draw interest from some list-members -- it would be astonishing if it
> didn't.  But to my mind, that's a different project, with a different
> dynamic, and I believe the two sets of *motive* need to be kept distinct.

Yes.  I have never seen them as very distinct -- I have a notion
of one Psybernet project with several lists, even many! lists
with the Psyber-L as the front door.

> Walter acknowledges this:
> 
> > It is very different here of course  . . .  for all the silence we have
> > had here, there are 62 members on this list.  It is not a Here &
> > Now group, it has a different function.

I hold by that distinction too . . . the Here & Now would be very
different from the public list.


> and yet he also writes:
> 
> > Re assessment.  I have a sense that the people most likely to enter
> > into the Here & Now group are those who have had a good
> > experience in Psybernet Conference and who have developed trust
> > here -- enough trust to fork out money on the net.  The problem in
> > that case is that the Psybernet Conference has been to small.

> My suggestion is that this *isn't* a PSYBER-L problem, but a Here and Now
> Group problem (again, I'm trying to keep the motives distinct here), so
> that what Walter was really getting at would be more clearly expressed if
> he'd written:

> ::  H&N's problem in that case is that the Psybernet Conference has
> ::  been too small...

Good point.  I am with you here . . . I have been fusing the two.
It is partly that I have a total Psybernet vision.  It is
Psybernet as a whole that has the problem!  The vision is OK, but
it needs to be a financially sound scheme with people paying to
go into groups or doing personal explorations or training.  The
running of a list such as Psyber-L without the other activities
is not viable from an _energy_ point of view on my part.  For a
long time I have benefited from being part of the learning and
wonderful interaction -- however I always saw it as a part of the
larger professional project.  

> If I'm right about this (and I'm trying to be tactful, too), PSYBER-L isn't
> in need of a change, PSYBER-L should continue as at present, and it's H&N
> that needs the marketing help...  *some* of which could naturally arise on
> PSYBER-L, and some elsewhere.
> 
> But making changes to PSYBER-L in response to an H&N need seems to me
> liable to torpedo PSYBER-L, whereas making changes to H&N would be more
> likely to have the desired effect...

I like what you are saying . . . we seem to be onto it, if not
quite there.

> Making changes to H&N?  What do I mean?
> 
> It's the "marketing" side I'm thinking of here.  And my guess is that H&N
> and PSYBER-L need two separate "through-lines"

You go on to clarify:

ONE:

> A web page about "online / group / therapy / jungian" (keywords, not a
> phrase, intended to catch the eye of people using Lycos, AltaVista and
> other search engines) -- for those who are looking for H&N whether they
> know it or not >>> which recommends subscribing to PSYBER-L as a possible
> means for developing the trust Walter talks about >>> leading to eventual
> H&N membership...

And TWO

> And a web page about "psyche / internet / cyberspace / jung" -- for those
> who are looking for PSYBER-L >>> which leads to PSYBER-L subscription >>>
> which can then lead in some cases to an interest in H&N also...
> 
> I know Walter's web pages already have both these strands in them, but I'm
> arguing for making them very *clear* and *distinct* strands, in a way
> that's not there yet...

I agree . . ..

> I'd like to emphasize that all this is intended as helpful 

and it is Charles, and also, I think the stuff of Psyber-L as we
know it.  These sorts of questions are central to this list and
the whole project.

I must have another look at that Pre Christmas post of yours
Charles!



Walter 


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Feb 06 01:51:56 1996
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz 
Subject: Re: Just a Quick What do I really Want?
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 12:51:56 GMT

Tama Tama Tama Tama,

> Well,
> You kinda know me,  well you know I'm not afraid of bareing all,  sending
> it all out in a pleothora of me,  not analytical as such,  . . . 

And good for you.

> I was and am more interested in
> talking about life.

Life . . . that is what it is always about . . .even if we get it
a little confused and theoretical . . . at the bottom we are on
about life . . . Stephen is perhaps calling it fractal eros . . .
but I'd say it is life . . . would that be right?

> Although I think my postings should probably be in a
> place more suited to them.

They are fine just here by me!  I like them.  I might be wanting
to reassess but what ever happens I want the life to be here.
You know, some of your posts, and some of Daniels, now Josh On,
and one by Rebecka called "Sweet Thing" stand out for me as being
little gems.  Perhaps someone could repost them, just to give you
an idea. 

> The time I have had here is great,  I think
> Cyber-L is a great jumping off point,  a stepping stone as people
> say.Walter I would like to be involved in your here and now group-I will
> later send a more direct letter to you.Hopeful my mother is getting monet
> from the government to by a pc for her garden design buisness,  that way I
> will be set up at home with modem.

Sounds like that will make it all a bit more viable . . . great
that you want to be part of this project.

***

I wrote adding to what Steve said . . .
> > the development of relationships around these [psychological ]
> >interests is an important part of the work.

and you say . . . taking it all to the limit:

>  Ye Ha-this stuff is what i really want this gets me ticking lkike a time
> bomb ready to exsplode into infinty and beyond-I say let it begin-Here and
> now I come!!

You are a dag!



Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Feb 06 01:52:36 1996
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz 
Subject: Re: feelings and wants
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 12:52:36 GMT

Steve,

On Sun, 4 Feb 1996 08:49:43 -0500, Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
wrote:

> The sixty-two:

I am lost . . . what is the 62?

> I don't really hate to invoke what I'm about to invoke, but that's because
> instead of 'it' being a dirty word it represents in part my livelihood.
> OTOH, it's a bit loaded up, especially here in cyberspace where I recently
> read:

> "Everybody on the internet is running for cover now that the MARKETING
> people have discovered it."
> 
> (Yes...we have! tee hee)

I have from my first glimpse of the medium wanted it to be some
sort of extension of my professional life . . . so "it" is not a
dirty word for me either . . . but it does push buttons for me .
. .  I don't want to be seen as being here as some sort of money
grubber.  The fear of that has perhaps had a counter productive
effect on my work in cyberspace.  For me to be fully productive,
effective, and viable here it has to draw me away from RL -- and
that means it has to pay more, cost less and generate enough
money to pay people to do more of the work that I cant quite do.


> I feel there is a fundamental marketing proposition that bears upon the
> promotion and full activation of a discussion list such as Psyber-L. It is
> perhaps necessary for it to be an ongoing activity.

Definitely.  It has come up a bit too in the list -- infonomics
-- money and psychotherapy - etc.  I see the FEE as a tool for
creating boundaries.  The price of a ticket does not only pay for
the production, it also makes one a member -- one who belongs --
who is committed etc.  

> Since this specific medium is driven by participation and because there is
> a critical mass of day in and day out interest that keeps the energy level
> up enough to keep the ball rolling, sts, then one perspective, the
> marketing one, requires that 'new blood' be continually entering the list;
> making a 'trial' as it were.

Hmmm  I am not sure what you mean here.  In some way I like the
idea that by simply doing what we do well the critical mass will
be here -- will arrive.  

I was impressed by Charles's idea of making distinct paths into
Psybernet -- crisper -- more focussed entry into what could
actually be the same basic focal point.

Is that what you mean by "marketing"  I do. 

Ron, I hope you are there and well!  You are somewhat of an
expert on this . . . 

In a way we create a "place" a whole structure with Words!  Well
I suppose words are one of the main tools -- what else is there?
Money is one definite important other factor -- and how we use
time and silence are some more. . .  is that marketing?  

I think my somewhat restrained approach to marketing    the
silence if you like is also a tool . . .  perhaps OK ???

> Can marketing make up for a falling participation? Yes. Can it compensate
> for a constant turn over of a group? No, finally if there is not enough
> 'there' there, then the group will stall in its tracks.

Right.

> I do volunteer my services as an online promoter to this group. (I have a
> response to the wording of the promotional posting as it exists now which I
> will save for another post.)

Thanks I found that helpful,  I think we are clarifying a lot
here.

> ***

> My heart grew heavy as events in the beginning of December demonstrated
> that the critical mass of Psyber-L had grown heavy enough in its path to
> slow down until its inertial resting point was reached. I've archived posts
> to the group since I joined it in the end of July and one can see that the
> threads which wove themselves nicely through October  could not do so
> effectively by mid-November.

And notice how everyone has had a different response to that
hiatus.  It is not one thing such a silence. . . it is part of
the life of the list.  Yes its life . . . 

I had not seen it like that but now I am getting all Zen and
valuing the spaces.  Gregory Bateson-ish too -- what does no-mail
tell us! 

> Of course: it is people who weave threads!
> 
> Efforts to jump start the Psyber-L group through posting provocative new
> subject matter failed. :-(

Maybe not . . . posting for the sake of jump-starting the group
might not have achieved what you wanted.  But what have you
learnt from that?  Maybe something quite psybernetic?  There is a
lot to be learnt from silence.  Has anyone seen that book about
group process with the picture of the meeting on the front?  It
explains inside the cover that it is a meeting of the Paris peace
talks (?) which holds the record for the longest silence in a
group.  

Now that would be something -- how long can an Internet group
have no postings and still be a group?

> Walter, you moved into a semi non-participatory status as the holidays
> rolled around. I'm grateful for your communication of the context . . . 

You can see it is not really non participation . . . you'd be
surprised how often on my marathon bush walk my mind wandered
around group process both here in cyberspace and in the groups I
am planning to run this year.  The holiday helped.

There is a problem though with me having this Psybernet project
as well as the new RL one -- I am very stretched.  Full of life
though.  

It is wonderful to have completed the mailout of the brochure for
groups, and also to be getting the paint on the walls -- such a
symbolic thing to do -- to paint the walls.


> and how
> you and 'it' felt on the other side of your reconsideration(s)...
> This group is going through a necessary transition now; and, it is being
> moved in part by your (WL's) reappraisal.

It is going through something . . .  lets watch what "it" does.
That is one thing I got from Stanley's participation here -- some
may recall him . . . is that we don't control much at all --
things, events everything has its own life and its own gods that
are at work.   

Back to the goddess of the net . . . it is over to her!  As you
say Steve, can we hear her?

> ***
> 
> In the Net-Dynamics list there has been very dense and robust discussion
> about the nature of mailing lists. Lots of clues have been dropped there.
> Perhaps Psyber-L became too friendly, too undirected, too 'uni-functional',
> etc.  (?)

Perhaps.  It is not dead yet though.

> I do know that it seemed to serve a social function largely and not a task
> oriented function. For myself this was tremendously engaging because it was
> charged with the riches of the participants who were fearless in bringing
> their treasures to the group...but, my intuition tells me that it was not a
> unique enough function, . . . .

Is the task inherent in that social function?  I think so.
Somewhere in this current correspondence with you me Charles Tama
and the silent majority we are simply relating.  The content is
about our process but our process is also part of our task here
-- am I being too obscure.

In other words socialising here while we watch ourselves is to
"become conscious of the unconscious"  ways the media is shaping
out life here.  That is our task -- at least in Psybernet as we
have known it.

***

> What did you feel about your participation here in November and what do you
> feel about it now?

I was fairly quiet during November -- I read the list more than
wrote -- I felt good that it had some life without me there!  It
was in October that I wrote more about Psybernet Small Groups . .
. I was more or less letting the list do its thing and thinking
about groups, how to get the small - for a fee- facilitated
groups going.  Getting the plan for the Here & Now out -- that
was my Psybernet work in the latter part organisational
development the year.  As well as brewing up the energy to lease
and set up the Harley Chambers Group Training Room.  

I feel good about the whole lot!  The group room is next door to
where Stuart and Barry work, both of whom are sometime
participants here.  It is in that room that later I will be
giving a talk about the Psybernet WWW pages. . .  I do get these
things done eventually.  

Taking about the WWW.  It is those pages that perhaps need the
updating more than the Psyber-L description.  That is the major
marketing tool Psybernet has.  People using the search engines as
Charles said.

> What do you want 'out' of Psyber-L?

As the list owner. . . I want Psyber-L  to be the main hall, the
jumping off point, a vital place, a meeting place, full of
intrigue about small groups, educative about the potential for
professional work on the net, have credibility as is suited to
the net, ie virtual authenticity -- help Psybernet a sort of
tavistock of cyberspace.  I want Psyber-L to let us know what it
wants.  I want it to find its niche.


Thanks Steve for the invitations and offers . . .


Walter





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Tue Feb 06 02:19:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: feelings and wants
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:19:32 -0500


Greetings,

>I am lost . . . what is the 62?

The 62 subscribed participants.

[snip]

>[marketing] dirty word for me either . . . but it does push buttons for me =
.
>. .  I don't want to be seen as being here as some sort of money
>grubber.  The fear of that has perhaps had a counter productive
>effect on my work in cyberspace.  For me to be fully productive,
>effective, and viable here it has to draw me away from RL -- and
>that means it has to pay more, cost less and generate enough
>money to pay people to do more of the work that I can=EDt quite do.

The old business model is still being transmuted for this medium. One idea
is that of barter, especially the exchange of expertise and the development
of collaborative models. Sharing work...

[snip]

>the production, it also makes one a member -- one who belongs --
>who is committed etc.

Yet, a member's time is worth something itself, no less so than another
person's time. Maybe more so in some cases. One place the model starts to
be broken down in this medium is in it's proprietary modality:
the instigator/owner with more property rights than the participants...

Anyway, the free gateway into the structured fee driven 'modes' makes sense
especially (to me,) not in terms of my commitment being reinforced but more
pragmatic terms: the costs involved implementing the time of those who will
be doing the back-channel, back-room maintenance and facilitation.

I wonder if "doing it alone" in this medium results in "no price high
enough" to drag one away from RL? Which is to say that the psychic question
of balance isn't  totally a 'mana' question to my feeling.

[snip]

It can be said (to this group especially,)  that:

***Marketing is consciously helping to reinforce projections onto products
and services.***

adding in ref. to this medium:

***Marketing is consciously helping to reinforce projections onto products,
services, and experiences; virtual or otherwise real.***

!?!

Stephen

Everyone is kneaded out of the same dough but not baked in the same oven.

                                - Yiddish proverb

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Stephen Calhoun*Cleveland,Ohio*hoon@apk.net
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
*http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html*
new & enhanced for 1996 using JAVA(tm)=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D






From hoon@apk.net Tue Feb 06 02:32:35 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: feelings and wants
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:32:35 -0500


Yo!more...

>Hmmm  I am not sure what you mean here.  In some way I like the
>idea that by simply doing what we do well the critical mass will
>be here -- will arrive.

Charles implies a redefinition of critical mass. OTOH, what has broken the
silence here is a call for less of it... The critical mass may always be
lurking as well as participating, but, today my intention is to help move
the Psyber-L list into a more noisy active stage.

Quiet voiced big mouthed scotsman that I am.

>
>I was impressed by Charles's idea of making distinct paths into
>Psybernet -- crisper -- more focussed entry into what could
>actually be the same basic focal point.
>
>Is that what you mean by "marketing"  I do.

I imagine a web leading into the lens of Psyber-L and the lens focusing
outward into another web. The lens would capture projections by my previous
formulation.

What are those projections likely to be?

>
>Ron, I hope you are there and well!  You are somewhat of an
>expert on this . . .

Ron: I hope you are well too!

>
>In a way we create a "place" a whole structure with Words!  Well
>I suppose words are one of the main tools -- what else is there?
>Money is one definite important other factor -- and how we use
>time and silence are some more. . .  is that marketing?

This is a robust view of marketing! As a sidelight, several years ago I
worked with an African musician's management group and the Africans thought
of marketing very much in terms of its rhythms, spaces and silences...way
beyond "advertising frequencies, cycles, 'teasers', etc.

>
>I think my somewhat restrained approach to marketing    the
>silence if you like is also a tool . . .  perhaps OK ???
>

OK? Of course! Still, if you want to talk about money then the critical
mass is what person(s) out of the mass of persons will be willing to ante
up? If it's one out of a thousand, (a 'huge' sized market BTW,) then if you
need ten to ante up you'll need to pitch to 10,000! Directly. If you are
going to channel projections using a web page for example then you'll need
to provoke ten thousand quality hits on that page.

Stephen, with his marketing woolie pulled over his head and part way over
his shoulders.







From hoon@apk.net Tue Feb 06 02:53:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: 
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:53:52 -0500


8:40am and Steve is feelin' mighty okay today...

>>And notice how everyone has had a different response to that
>>hiatus.  It is not one thing such a silence. . . it is part of
>>the life of the list.  Yes its life . . .

Well, Walter, I didn't mind it  (silence) for a month or so. ;-) Hey! I'm
not into the holidays in a big way so my expectations went off track a bit.


And, I would guess that Psyber-L is one list for which the comfort level
with silence is not a problem. (I often will add new newsgroups as they pop
up on the server, and 75% are created and never have anything posted to
them!)

>>
>>I had not seen it like that but now I am getting all Zen and
>>valuing the spaces.  Gregory Bateson-ish too -- what does no-mail
>>tell us!

feeling it tells us we're at the end of a cycle...becoming
empty...waiting...watching...looking forward...


[snip]

>Maybe not . . . posting for the sake of jump-starting the group
>>might not have achieved what you wanted.  But what have you
>>learnt from that?  Maybe something quite psybernetic?  There is a
>>lot to be learnt from silence.

Wanting others to pick-up my threads. Unsure how to interprete silence as a
cue about what others want...time on my hands...

>>Now that would be something -- how long can an Internet group
>>have no postings and still be a group?

Define "still be a group". <g>

[snip]

>>You can see it is not really non participation . . .

you zen me

>> you'd be
>>surprised how often on my marathon bush walk my mind wandered
>>around group process both here in cyberspace and in the groups I
>>am planning to run this year.  The holiday helped.

I sure wouldn't be surprised.

>>
>>There is a problem though with me having this Psybernet project
>>as well as the new RL one -- I am very stretched.  Full of life
>>though.

Which is the point! Join the club. My guess is that the internet enthusiast
is by definition stretched.
I'd like to re-post your big dream of last summer...

Is the key to Psyber-L making it collaborative now and somehow lessening
your work load involved with it. Any ideas since the listserv is on your
computer or provider's server. Anyway, how could we help?

>>to paint the walls.

.hmmm...

[snip]

>>things, events everything has its own life and its own gods that
>>are at work.
>>
amen to them...

>>Is the task inherent in that social function?  I think so.
>>Somewhere in this current correspondence with you me Charles Tama
>>and the silent majority we are simply relating.  The content is
>>about our process but our process is also part of our task here
>>-- am I being too obscure.

Nope. Add in individuation and we're in the territory of the Glass Bead game.

[snip]

BTW, congratulations for all the implementation and 'action' with your
non-net commitments; wonderful.

>>Taking about the WWW.  It is those pages that perhaps need the
>>updating more than the Psyber-L description.  That is the major
>>marketing tool Psybernet has.  People using the search engines as
>>Charles said.
>>
How can we help? I'm linked from my site and you may reverse the link,
finally, (http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html) and I'm thinking about
cutting sdome gems out of the recent archives to post on a separate linked
page at my site which would generate some hits with promotion and add in
other key words, etc.

Doing the web site promotion from a secondary email address is a bit of a
challenge. However, doing all the submissions etc. is an eight to twice
that kind of task. Cross-linking with other Psych and "Eros" pages would be
a good way to go, too.

>>> What do you want 'out' of Psyber-L?
>>
>>As the list owner. . . I want Psyber-L  to be the main hall, the
>>jumping off point, a vital place, a meeting place, full of
>>intrigue about small groups, educative about the potential for
>>professional work on the net, have credibility as is suited to
>>the net, ie virtual authenticity -- help Psybernet a sort of
>>tavistock of cyberspace.  I want Psyber-L to let us know what it
>>wants.  I want it to find its niche.

One thing it was late last year was a free-for-all (pun intended,)
discussion about anything we could come up with. As a 'main hall' it was a
rolling mobile one. I wonder how to construe the doorways leading off of
it?

Best to all today,

Stephen






From hoon@apk.net Tue Feb 06 02:54:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: halls and doorways
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 08:54:21 -0500


8:40am and Steve is feelin' mighty okay today...

>>And notice how everyone has had a different response to that
>>hiatus.  It is not one thing such a silence. . . it is part of
>>the life of the list.  Yes its life . . .

Well, Walter, I didn't mind it  (silence) for a month or so. ;-) Hey! I'm
not into the holidays in a big way so my expectations went off track a bit.


And, I would guess that Psyber-L is one list for which the comfort level
with silence is not a problem. (I often will add new newsgroups as they pop
up on the server, and 75% are created and never have anything posted to
them!)

>>
>>I had not seen it like that but now I am getting all Zen and
>>valuing the spaces.  Gregory Bateson-ish too -- what does no-mail
>>tell us!

feeling it tells us we're at the end of a cycle...becoming
empty...waiting...watching...looking forward...


[snip]

>Maybe not . . . posting for the sake of jump-starting the group
>>might not have achieved what you wanted.  But what have you
>>learnt from that?  Maybe something quite psybernetic?  There is a
>>lot to be learnt from silence.

Wanting others to pick-up my threads. Unsure how to interprete silence as a
cue about what others want...time on my hands...

>>Now that would be something -- how long can an Internet group
>>have no postings and still be a group?

Define "still be a group". <g>

[snip]

>>You can see it is not really non participation . . .

you zen me

>> you'd be
>>surprised how often on my marathon bush walk my mind wandered
>>around group process both here in cyberspace and in the groups I
>>am planning to run this year.  The holiday helped.

I sure wouldn't be surprised.

>>
>>There is a problem though with me having this Psybernet project
>>as well as the new RL one -- I am very stretched.  Full of life
>>though.

Which is the point! Join the club. My guess is that the internet enthusiast
is by definition stretched.
I'd like to re-post your big dream of last summer...

Is the key to Psyber-L making it collaborative now and somehow lessening
your work load involved with it. Any ideas since the listserv is on your
computer or provider's server. Anyway, how could we help?

>>to paint the walls.

.hmmm...

[snip]

>>things, events everything has its own life and its own gods that
>>are at work.
>>
amen to them...

>>Is the task inherent in that social function?  I think so.
>>Somewhere in this current correspondence with you me Charles Tama
>>and the silent majority we are simply relating.  The content is
>>about our process but our process is also part of our task here
>>-- am I being too obscure.

Nope. Add in individuation and we're in the territory of the Glass Bead game.

[snip]

BTW, congratulations for all the implementation and 'action' with your
non-net commitments; wonderful.

>>Taking about the WWW.  It is those pages that perhaps need the
>>updating more than the Psyber-L description.  That is the major
>>marketing tool Psybernet has.  People using the search engines as
>>Charles said.
>>
How can we help? I'm linked from my site and you may reverse the link,
finally, (http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html) and I'm thinking about
cutting sdome gems out of the recent archives to post on a separate linked
page at my site which would generate some hits with promotion and add in
other key words, etc.

Doing the web site promotion from a secondary email address is a bit of a
challenge. However, doing all the submissions etc. is an eight to twice
that kind of task. Cross-linking with other Psych and "Eros" pages would be
a good way to go, too.

>>> What do you want 'out' of Psyber-L?
>>
>>As the list owner. . . I want Psyber-L  to be the main hall, the
>>jumping off point, a vital place, a meeting place, full of
>>intrigue about small groups, educative about the potential for
>>professional work on the net, have credibility as is suited to
>>the net, ie virtual authenticity -- help Psybernet a sort of
>>tavistock of cyberspace.  I want Psyber-L to let us know what it
>>wants.  I want it to find its niche.

One thing it was late last year was a free-for-all (pun intended,)
discussion about anything we could come up with. As a 'main hall' it was a
rolling mobile one. I wonder how to construe the doorways leading off of
it?

Best to all today,

Stephen






From hipbone@earthlink.net Tue Feb 06 17:58:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Games and Psyber-L was Reassessment
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:58:00 -0800


Hello again...

Stephen Calhoun mentioned in his "then" post that I had been working on
some games suitable for playing by e-mail and on mailing lists, and wrote:

> Hmmm. Should we discuss designing a game for *here*?

If we're to discuss this possibility, I'd like to get it clear from the
start that the "games" I'm talking about are far from trivial pursuits.  We
are so accustomed to thinking of "play" and "games" dismissively, that the
suggestion of playing a game on-list may well strike some of you as
entirely frivolous.  It's not by any means intended that way.  And it may
help you to get a sense of what the process is like if I post some of the
responses that players have had to previous games, and a brief description
of the games themselves.

A sample, then, to pique your interest:

::  Your game has much more value than I knew.  It continues to
::  work a transformation... in how I think, not just here [ie on list]
::  but in conversation, too.  It opens up reason, dislodges its
::  tyranny, allows for pattern much richer than cause-effect.
::  Perhaps what it does is to allow me to more fully, more
::  consciously, participate in synchrony -- I could never be an agent
::  in synchronicity before, except by surprise.  It gives me new ears
::  for listening.  Truly I am in awe of it.

::  This game teaches a different kind of intelligence.

::  What a means for generating a spirit of working-together in a
::  group...

::  Susanna Dorr

Rather than go on at greater length here, though, I'm goin to post some
quotes from Winnicutt on play and therapy, some further comments from
players, and a <warning: somewhat poetical> description of how my own games
work, and how they could work on this list in particular, in bite-sized
follow ups to this post.

And I'll preface each of them in the subject line with the letters PLG (for
PSYBER-L GAMES).  That way, subscribers who are utterly uninterested in all
this can safely delete them unread.

See you soon...


--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Tue Feb 06 17:58:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: About the Games / Invitation
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:58:15 -0800


Let me explain: what I have done is to create a formal structure for the
exploration of associations between thoughts.

I have a poem that describes the process:

                place an idea
                in clarity
                like a stone in a zen
                sandgarden:
                ripples extend
                toward the next stone,
                the next idea...

                ten stones:

A game consists in the juxtaposition of ten thoughts on one of my game
boards -- in such a way that the ripples and eddies between them constitute
a kind of virtual music...

The structure of the board is rigid and predetermined, while the flow of
associations is notoriously mercurial and unpredictable: what happens when
you bring the two together is that the constraints of the board force you
to a closer examination and analysis of the associations -- and that in
turn invites deeper exploration and further discoveries...

*

The list purpose, as Walter just reminded us, involves the "conscious
experience of the psyche as it evolves in cyberspace"...  which is also
what these games are all about.

I have played the games elsewhere as a sort of "virtual art form" and as
"party games", I have explored some of the ways in which they could be used
in education, and I've been wanting to explore their therapeutic
possibilities for quite a while now, but never quite found the right people
to do it with...

Given this list's concern with both psyche and cyberspace, this may be the
ideal place...

*

Stephen Calhoun also wrote:

> I'd like to see some *players* join here to collaborate on some
> unique iteration.

A playing of the game that centered around a dream interpretation, maybe?

Walter, what say you?  This might be a wonderful way to build list cohesion
and get things moving after the calm...

Best wishes to all,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Tue Feb 06 17:58:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Winnicott and Play
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:58:22 -0800


The games I'm talking about are very much in the spirit of DW Winnicott's
*Playing and Reality*, and particularly his third chapter, "Playing: A
Theoretical Statement" -- in which I found the following quotes:

::  Psychotherapy takes place in the overlap of two areas of playing,
::  that of the patient and that of the therapist.  Psychotherapy has to
::  do with two people playing together.  (pb p 38)

and...

::  I want to draw attention away from the sequence psychoanalysis,
::  psychotherapy, play material, playing, and to set this up again the
::  other way round.  In other words, _it is play that is the universal_,
::  and that belongs to health: playing facilitates growth and therefore
::  health; playing leads into group relationships; playing can be a
::  form of communication in psychotherapy; and, lastly,
::  psychoanalysis has been developed as a highly specialized form of
::  playing in the service of communication with oneself and others.

::  The natural thing is playing, and the highly sophisticated
::  twentieth-century phenomenon is paychoanalysis.  It must be of
::  value to the analyst to be constantly reminded not only of what is
::  owed to Freud but also of what we owe to the natural and
::  universal thing called playing.  (pb p 41)

That my current "basis in theory", so to speak...  And I'd be very
interested if any subscribers could point me in the direction of further
materials on play in psychotherapy...

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Tue Feb 06 17:58:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Game Experience and Online Temenos
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:58:28 -0800


Welcome back...

The quotes that follow are "testimonials", not so much to the games that
I've been designing, as to the process the games invoke -- and I'd ask that
you read them not as "advertising blurbs" (nauseating thought) but as
examples of the the degree to which games of this sort really can touch the
deeper levels of imagination.

I believe they are also eloquent illustrations of the possibility of
*temenos* on mailing lists... a topic of great importance to this list.

::  How to sum up my feelings about something that is
::  simultaneously fun and frolic, serious and profound, numinous
::  and competitive?  Anything that adds to the possibility of
::  numinous experience in our lives is a great advance.

::  Caroline Kenner

::  I am certainly not the only person involved in the Games to have
::  subjectively experienced the numinous quality of meaningful
::  coincidences in high concentrations while playing the Games.

::  What has astounded me, in each game I have played, is that
::  Hermes (in the form of outrageous fortuities) has personally
::  hand-delivered practically every bit of "erudition and wit" that
::  found its way into my plays.  Entire new disciplines have opened
::  up for me in this way.

::  I feel I have had the enormous honour of a private and practical
::  tutorial in Alchemy by one of the true Masters of the subject.

::  Mary Lynn Richardson

::  Charles, there are so many reasons that I love your project.
::  Mainly, as I said, its the thinking that it encourages.  Not to be
::  too grandiose, but seems that the promotion of this kind of
::  thinking, that which perceives and seeks connections, is toward
::  cosmic consciousness while celebrating the infinite expression of
::  it.  It's the simultaneous meditation on the infinite and the one.

::  Kim Bender

::  I have just finished reading the final moves of the Games in utter
::  awe.  The concepts raised, the links made, the sheer information
::  and connections revealed in the summary explanations --
::  beautiful!!!  ... an exquisite ongoing dialog on the forces of
::  nature, reality, and the human experience...

::  Cynndara Morgan

All this is intended as an attempt to give list-members -- and Walter in
particular -- a sense of what the games are like when played on a mailing
list with bright and creative people.  And I should no doubt mention that
the alchemical "Master" referred to in Mary Lynn's quote is *not* myself,
but one of the Training Analysts in the New York Jung Institute -- and if
their game together gave her a "private and practical tutorial in Alchemy",
that's because alchemy is the area he's most deeply immersed in...

What I hope you get out of this is a sense that the games (i) are in fact
fun, (2) but also demanding, (3) tap into the unconscious / creative
processes, and (4) facilitate a new awareness in "life outside the
games"...

Cordially,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Wed Feb 07 00:51:38 1996
To: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: PLG: About the Games / Invitation
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 11:51:38 GMT


Charles and Stephen and all,

I'm off to bed after a big day painting.  Delighted with the
mail!  


> Walter, what say you?  This might be a wonderful way to build list cohesion
> and get things moving after the calm...

Yes, and most of all a wonderful thing to give a go for its own
sake.  I'm all for it.  I appreciate your thoughtful
introductions and skill in this . . . lets continue in this vein
. . . and also with the Halls and Doorways thread, about our
directions and collaborations . . . 

goodnight / morning 

Back soon. . . 


Walter

>

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Wed Feb 07 00:53:55 1996
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: PLG: About the Games / Invitation
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 11:53:55 GMT


Charles and Stephen and all,

I'm off to bed after a big day painting.  Delighted with the
mail!  


> Walter, what say you?  This might be a wonderful way to build list cohesion
> and get things moving after the calm...

Yes, and most of all a wonderful thing to give a go for its own
sake.  I'm all for it.  I appreciate your thoughtful
introductions and skill in this . . . lets continue in this vein
. . . and also with the Halls and Doorways thread, about our
directions and collaborations . . . 

goodnight / morning 

Back soon. . . 


Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Wed Feb 07 03:02:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: About the Games / Invitation
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:02:27 -0500


Charles and all,

Count me in! I'm intrigued.

>
>I have a poem that describes the process:
>
>                place an idea
>                in clarity
>                like a stone in a zen
>                sandgarden:
>                ripples extend
>                toward the next stone,
>                the next idea...
>
>                ten stones:
>
[snip]

>The structure of the board is rigid and predetermined, while the flow of
>associations is notoriously mercurial and unpredictable: what happens when
>you bring the two together is that the constraints of the board force you
>to a closer examination and analysis of the associations -- and that in
>turn invites deeper exploration and further discoveries...

There is also the hint here of activating the imagination and giving the
gods some room for serious play.

Charles: what number of persons would be needed for this to work (here) in
your estimation?
Also, would the playing of the game through the Psyber-L "address" inhibit
entries into the thought-stream of the group? Similarly, could new players
jump in midway through the game?
Finally, can you anticipate the demand on our time to be fully active as a
participant or describe what the constraints might be?

I'd be willing to do the grunt work to seed solicitations for participation
if enough of the *sixty-two* didn't want to join in.

Tama,  Jb, you in?

Stephen


what you thought to draw lifts off the paper,
as what you love slips from your heart...

(Rumi, ra; tr: Moyne & Barks)






From lhall@humanitas.ucsb.edu Wed Feb 07 06:59:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Game Experience and Online Temenos
From: leanne Hall <lhall@humanitas.ucsb.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:59:08 -0800 (PST)


Greetings,

I recently subscribed to this list--led here by searching for any
information "Jungian" on the WWW.  I've been reading the responses going
back and forth for the last two days about the quiet on the list. Frankly,
I was not that interested because I have no sense of the history of the
list or what went on before.  Anyway, what I just read about the
introduction of the games described by Charles sounds *very interesting*
and exciting to me.  I would be interested in participating if the time
needed is not too extensive. I am a lay-person very interested in Carl Jung
and his theories.  I have read all of his books and taken a couple of
classes exploring his methods.   
>
>I believe they are also eloquent illustrations of the possibility of
>*temenos* on mailing lists... a topic of great importance to this list.

I looked up temenos in the dictionary without finding a definition.  Could
you please explain it to me?

All the best,

Leanne
>



****************************************************************************






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Feb 08 00:06:00 1996
To: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: PLG: Game Experience and Online Temenos
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 11:06:00 GMT

Dear Charles,

> What I hope you get out of this is a sense that the games (i) are in fact
> fun, (2) but also demanding, (3) tap into the unconscious / creative
> processes, and (4) facilitate a new awareness in "life outside the
> games"...

Yes.  I get that impression.  I am looking forward to the next
step.  

A question:  Do the people who wrote the testimonials know they
are being quoted?  I hope so, even though this is a good use it
helps to know what happens to ones words.

I guess that is part of "temanos" having a place that feels
secure.  I can imagine that the archives of a game would be
really worth reading -- Id love to -- is there some clarification
about this needed before we start?  The whole of the Psybernet
archives are maintained on the Psybernet BBS, and are readily
available to anyone who cares to dig them up.  I would hope that
if anyone quotes from them that there is some discussion about
that.  There are no guarantees of course, but to keep that as an
ethos, as something we would expect and value will help our sense
of trust.  I think I am right on the right track with this idea
-- or is it best that we consider all of this "public domain"? 

I hope this is not a side track Charles, but a way developing the
sense of trust that will help the game.

On another tack:

Is a group, with its format and norms (rules) a game?  I expect
you will say yes.  In that case is a game a group?


Walter 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Feb 08 01:17:21 1996
To: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Subject: Re: halls and doorways, and collaboration
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 12:17:21 GMT

Dear Stephen,

> Is the key to Psyber-L making it collaborative now and somehow lessening
> your work load involved with it. Any ideas since the listserv is on your
> computer or provider's server. Anyway, how could we help?

Thanks for the offer.  Yes I can do with help.  I like the _idea_
of collaboration . . . the very thorough participation that you
have in the list helps -- especially when I muse about its place
in the world.  

On a more direct and practical level . . . .

The listserv is actually on a PC in my room here -- it is a DOS
version, quite stubborn old unfriendly software, that is still in
beta and that will probably never see its version 1.00 release.
It does this job quite well, but it is temperamental and worries
me!  

The listserv taps into a provider -- Southern, who I don't like
to bother about anything much as they are rather unhelpful.  It
daunts me to think of changing the address and setup as I would
probably never get the thing running again.

To add to the problem is this:  In New Zealand we pay to send
mail AND to receive it.  (I believe, and I also hear that in the
US it is not like this) This means I pay roughly a cent or two
per message to each subscriber -- this adds up, especially when
there are many messages and many subscribers.  This is OK if
Psybernet is a viable professional service. . . 

So, here is how others can help:  How is Psybernet best
transported to a more viable site?  

Some of the things I have that I don't want to loose:

1. The way people can get text files (send a message to
info@link.southern.co.nz  -- no subject no text in the body, to
see what I mean)

2.  I can set up a list at the drop of a hat -- for example one
for the Game should we so desire . . . ie I can create shops off
the mall . . .

Any ideas?

> BTW, congratulations for all the implementation and 'action' with your
> non-net commitments; wonderful.

Yes -- the new room is looking good and there are some excellent
groups planned.  A brochure has gone far and wide.  

> >>Taking about the WWW.  

> How can we help?

You are helping.  When the time comes I will post up the wording
of my rewrites of the WWW pages and I would love feedback.  I do
have a sense of authorship that I do not want the collaboration
to spoil -- do you know what I mean?  

I think your idea of having something you write about Psybernet
on your pages is excellent -- that is the sort of collaboration I
like -- I could do that about your pages too, not just links but
some expression of our connection.  Also a reference to your
Psybernet gems.  

> As a 'main hall' it was a
> rolling mobile one. I wonder how to construe the doorways leading off of
> it?

My image of how it happens is that we do things here like
Charles's Game, and at some point it needs a new space -- and so
another "room" is added.  In the days when Psybernet was only on
the BBS we had a long discussion about anonymity in cyberspace --
out of that another group was born the ALTERWORLD which was an
anonymous area -- no real names required.  We also developed the
first Here & Now group there.  

The function of Psyber-L is that it can have many things
happening at one with people coming and going -- that is a
different feel to the rooms which are more focussed.  Will all
this ever really take off?  I don't know, but it seems like a
sound idea.  And perhaps not so far off -- after all there are
some awaiting the start of the Here & Now group. 

Psybernet Small Groups are to Psyber-L what lists are to
newsgroups.

Walter 


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Feb 08 01:21:11 1996
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: halls and doorways & collaboration
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 12:21:11 GMT

Dear Stephen,

> Is the key to Psyber-L making it collaborative now and somehow lessening
> your work load involved with it. Any ideas since the listserv is on your
> computer or provider's server. Anyway, how could we help?

Thanks for the offer.  Yes I can do with help.  I like the _idea_
of collaboration . . . the very thorough participation that you
have in the list helps -- especially when I muse about its place
in the world.  

On a more direct and practical level . . . .

The listserv is actually on a PC in my room here -- it is a DOS
version, quite stubborn old unfriendly software, that is still in
beta and that will probably never see its version 1.00 release.
It does this job quite well, but it is temperamental and worries
me!  

The listserv taps into a provider -- Southern, who I don't like
to bother about anything much as they are rather unhelpful.  It
daunts me to think of changing the address and setup as I would
probably never get the thing running again.

To add to the problem is this:  In New Zealand we pay to send
mail AND to receive it.  (I believe, and I also hear that in the
US it is not like this) This means I pay roughly a cent or two
per message to each subscriber -- this adds up, especially when
there are many messages and many subscribers.  This is OK if
Psybernet is a viable professional service. . . 

So, here is how others can help:  How is Psybernet best
transported to a more viable site?  

Some of the things I have that I don't want to loose:

1. The way people can get text files (send a message to
info@link.southern.co.nz  -- no subject no text in the body, to
see what I mean)

2.  I can set up a list at the drop of a hat -- for example one
for the Game should we so desire . . . ie I can create shops off
the mall . . .

Any ideas?

> BTW, congratulations for all the implementation and 'action' with your
> non-net commitments; wonderful.

Yes -- the new room is looking good and there are some excellent
groups planned.  A brochure has gone far and wide.  

> >>Taking about the WWW.  

> How can we help?

You are helping.  When the time comes I will post up the wording
of my rewrites of the WWW pages and I would love feedback.  I do
have a sense of authorship that I do not want the collaboration
to spoil -- do you know what I mean?  

I think your idea of having something you write about Psybernet
on your pages is excellent -- that is the sort of collaboration I
like -- I could do that about your pages too, not just links but
some expression of our connection.  Also a reference to your
Psybernet gems.  

> As a 'main hall' it was a
> rolling mobile one. I wonder how to construe the doorways leading off of
> it?

My image of how it happens is that we do things here like
Charles's Game, and at some point it needs a new space -- and so
another "room" is added.  In the days when Psybernet was only on
the BBS we had a long discussion about anonymity in cyberspace --
out of that another group was born the ALTERWORLD which was an
anonymous area -- no real names required.  We also developed the
first Here & Now group there.  

The function of Psyber-L is that it can have many things
happening at one with people coming and going -- that is a
different feel to the rooms which are more focussed.  Will all
this ever really take off?  I don't know, but it seems like a
sound idea.  And perhaps not so far off -- after all there are
some awaiting the start of the Here & Now group. 

Psybernet Small Groups are to Psyber-L what lists are to
newsgroups.

Walter 





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Feb 08 01:22:44 1996
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: PLG: Game Experience and Online Temenos
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 12:22:44 GMT

Dear Charles,

> What I hope you get out of this is a sense that the games (i) are in fact
> fun, (2) but also demanding, (3) tap into the unconscious / creative
> processes, and (4) facilitate a new awareness in "life outside the
> games"...

Yes.  I get that impression.  I am looking forward to the next
step.  

A question:  Do the people who wrote the testimonials know they
are being quoted?  I hope so, even though this is a good use it
helps to know what happens to ones words.

I guess that is part of "temanos" having a place that feels
secure.  I can imagine that the archives of a game would be
really worth reading -- Id love to -- is there some clarification
about this needed before we start?  The whole of the Psybernet
archives are maintained on the Psybernet BBS, and are readily
available to anyone who cares to dig them up.  I would hope that
if anyone quotes from them that there is some discussion about
that.  There are no guarantees of course, but to keep that as an
ethos, as something we would expect and value will help our sense
of trust.  I think I am right on the right track with this idea
-- or is it best that we consider all of this "public domain"? 

I hope this is not a side track Charles, but a way developing the
sense of trust that will help the game.

On another tack:

Is a group, with its format and norms (rules) a game?  I expect
you will say yes.  In that case is a game a group?


Walter 
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Feb 08 01:41:17 1996
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: PLG: Game Experience and Online Temenos
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 12:41:17 GMT

Dear leanne,

Welcome to the list . . . it is interesting how the connection
with Jung brings people to this space.  My own training is in
psychodrama -- though I have had a long experience of personal
Jungian psychotherapy.  J L Moreno, who I also feature on the
Psybernet WWW pages seems to bring no-one . . . he was actually
quite a man, and I don't think history has finished with him yet
-- ( perhaps I mean the future.)

> and exciting to me.  I would be interested in participating if the time
> needed is not too extensive.

sounds like it could be good. 

> I looked up temenos in the dictionary without finding a definition.  Could
> you please explain it to me?

It is a new word for me -- I read it in alt.psychology.jung, the
newsgroup -- and have somehow picked up on what I mean by it
anyway -- this might need refining by an "expert".  I see it as
the quality of the container . . . the word has a link to temple
. . . a sacred space.  Thus in a group it is the almost invisible
membrane that unites it and that we value and respect.  The unity
comes from an adherence to the purpose of the group, but it is
more than that . . . it is an adherence to the actual life of the
group -- the unconscious forces that hold it together.  A church,
is more than the building -- the temenos is lost when the church
is no longer used and becomes a martial arts hall.  

I thought it was a very Jungian word -- did he use it?


Walter.


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From judithb@sbc1.com Thu Feb 08 02:15:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG thots
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: 07 Feb 1996 13:15:45 GMT


Jumping in responding to Stephen's
<jb you in?>
who invited me into the list a few days ago..
.As with Jeanne Hall I am new to the list and sensing my way 
thru the discussion re: silence and the list and and the game proposal
by Charles Cameron. My experience in this medium is based on being
a founding partner of a regional on-line service for small business-beginning
just prior to the AOL explosion where it was my focus to develop the distance
learning
use of the medium. During this same period I was participating in the first
on-line
PhD program thru California Institute of Integral Studies for a year and
a half of course work which was amazing as we all engaged in learning
transformative learning together on-line using the Electronic University
platform on AOL. 
That said I am intrigued with Charles' game and would certainly want to play
-playing is fun and fun is a priority for me :-). During my PhDing I
particpated in a research project based in David Bohm's dialogue ideation in
6 month intervals over 18 months which brought richness in very subtle ways.
There were rules of the road set up one of which was a commitment to visit
the space 3 times a week. often the only posts were *here listening*-another
rule in response to our early on experience of silence as you have noted. I'm
not sure as yet as I dip my toe gently in this water what value my experience
may be here, however, I do think that having a purpose within the
superordinate is key to engagement and Charles proposes such a key IMHO. I'd
be interested in having the experience of the game.
Looking forward...
jb
Judith Buerkel
JudithB@sbc1.com
-- 
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050




From qnfa1@maila.central.susx.ac.uk Thu Feb 08 06:06:56 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG thots
From: qnfa1@maila.central.susx.ac.uk
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 17:06:56 +0000


I'm following in the footsteps of Leanne and Judith -

.....new to the list, and only just catching the tail end of Charles'
game, so not only am I intrigued by the concept, but I am having to
guess at what went before.

My name is Gavin Ashenden - I'm an episcopalian priest at Sussex
University in England, and I teach developmentla psychology students
courses on the psychology of religious experience, which major on Jung
(set in the context of Frued and James et al - Hay/Hardy/Fowler etc.)


I have little more to say at the moment, except that I am glad to have
found you on the net, and would like to hear more of what lies behind
Charles' games.

Best wishes,

Gavin







From hipbone@earthlink.net Thu Feb 08 10:11:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Bear Madonna Dream Game
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:11:33 -0800


I once had a dream which consisted in its entirety of a glimpse of a
she-bear and her cub in the pose of the Madonna and Child.  Wham!

*

Suppose we were playing a Dream Symbol Game on a board based on the
Pythagorean Tetraktys, which looks like this:

                       O
                      / \
                     O---O
                    / \ / \
                   O---O---O
                  / \ / \ / \
                 O---O---O---O

or, so that I can number the positions for convenience:

                       O
                      / \
                     8---9
                    / \ / \
                   5---6---7
                  / \ / \ / \
                 1---2---3---4

[This particular "Tetraktys board", incidentally, was suggested to me by
Stephen Cranmer, copyright 1995, and he retains all rights including
"intellectual and property rights" to its use as a board in Games of this
kind.

Those of you with variable width typefaces in their mail readers will need
to "translate" these diagrams into a monospaced font such as Courier to
view them properly.]

How would we proceed?

I, the Dreamer, would place my dream image in the center, in position 6:
"She-Bear and Child", and explain what it was that I saw...

Three Players would each start at one of the apices (0, 1 or 4) with some
thought or image that seemed to represent some fundamental thrust of human
life, which in some very general way connected with the dream.  Player 1
places "God" in position 1.  Player 2 places "Nature" in Position 1.
Player 3 places "Anima" in position 4...  And already we, the folks who are
following the Game, know something about their concerns and interests...

And then the fun really begins.  The remaining six positions each connect
(a) to one of the three moves at 0, 1 and 4, (b) to the specifics of the
dream image at 6, and (c) to two of the other six positions.

Player 1 places "Madonna" in 9, and talks about the Madonna as a
manifestation of the "feminine divine (linking with "God" in 1), and indeed
the Mother of God -- and the Bear Mother as Madonna (linking with the dream
itself), drawing out the implications of a "Bear Madonna" in a rather sweet
eco-devotional manner.  So far so good.

Player 2 puts "Nature red in tooth and claw" in position 2, claiming that
bears are a Force of Nature (linking with Nature in position 1) and not
always as easy going as that Madonna pose may suggest.  On occasion, they
can eat you...  There's something a touch malicious about this move, coming
right on top of the previous move with its spiritual Madonna-figure.

What the hell, Player 3 plays the "Tooth Mother Naked" at 3.  Thinking
about teeth in a mythic context -- particularly with all those anima /
madonna / goddess images flying around -- reminds her of Robert Bly's
little essay on the subject,  and in any case she's not about to let Player
2 have the most grittily "realistic" move in the Game with his Darwinian
reductionistic "tooth and claw" nonsense.  Let's get this thing *really*
moving into the dark side, she thinks, vagina dentata, Mother Kali and
all...  Blessed be...

Turn and turn about: Player 1 had the easiest move to make in the previous
round -- the move with the most possible choices, and fewest possible
constraints -- so this time the order of play is reversed, and Player 3
gets to make a second move hot on the heels of her first.  Okay, she's show
her "edge" -- how about something a little quieter and more meditative?
She plays "Anima Mundi" in position 7.  She explains that the dream appears
to be intent on shaking up our overly pious ideas about the "divine
feminine" as an exclusively a heavenly quality, locating Her firmly in the
natural realm -- where she will have milk for her young (position 6) but
also teeth for those who would harm them ("Tooth Mother" at 2).  Dreams
like this, she writes, are an indication that the primary archetypal
configuration for our times will be global, natural, feminine, nurtuing,
and fierce if need be -- and if we want to get with the program, we'd
better get with the program...

It's Player 2's turn, and he's somewhat ill-at-ease when it comes to the
Tooth Mother and suchlike, and frankly relieved he hasn't been forced to
link with that particular move.  But he doesn't have much to say about God,
either, so he's pretty much stuck with making a move in position 5.  He
begins thinking about bears and honey and such things, from a
"naturalistic" perspective, and the idea of hibernation comes up.  If he'd
been more aware of Eastern philosophy, he might have quoted the Upanishads
to the effect that Brahman is the honey of all beings (in position 8), and
wangled his way into an explanation of how the Madonna fits into the
picture: but as we've seen, he isn't much into the mystical end of things
-- and the closest he's come to bears is watching them on National
Geographic videos.  Hibernation?  He'll put it in position 5, and say that
it's a *natural* phenomenon as opposed to a *mystical* one (connecting with
"Nature" in 1) -- and contrast it with his own "red in tooth and claw" move
in 2, demonstrating that he's aware that nature can also be beautiful or
simple -- or even boring!

Player 1 is delighted.  He knew he'd have to move in a position that was
already predetermined, with even its links already in place, but this one
is a gift.  During the almost two weeks between his previous move and this
one, he'd done some research <hint, hint>.  He'd been to the library, and
found a remarkable book by Paul Shepard and Barry Sanders, *The Sacred
Paw*, which he had been reading...  His move is worth quoting in full:

Player 1, Move 10, "Circumpolar Bear Cult" in position 8.

There was one creature who must have seemed like both a twin and a mentor
for the early humans of the northern circumpolar lands.  Like ourselves a
mammal, a major predator and an omnivore, like us rising on two feet at
times, the bear signaled his kinship with us in many ways.  He was, if
anything, our superior in hunting: and his body, when skinned, was about
the same size and shape as our own.

Exploring the Drachenloch cave in Switzerland, Emil Bachler found cave bear
skulls arranged in wall niches in one part of the cave, and stone tombs in
another chamber containing cave bear skulls and bones.  *Ursus spelaeus*,
the cave bear, has now been extinct 10,000 years, while the Neanderthal
inhabitants of the caves appear to have ceased as a species themselves
about 40,000 years ago.

In Shepard and Sanders book, *The Sacred Paw*, which deals with both the
natural history of the bear and its appearances in myth and ritual, Bachler
surmises that his finds provide "the first evidence in man of an already
awakened higher spiritual life."

But why the bear in particular?  What could we learn from the bear that we
couldn't learn anywhere else?  Shepard and Sanders' answer is that the bear
seemed able to teach us how to survive bodily death.  Hibernation isn't
just a "natural" phenomenon -- it's also a "spiritual" revelation...

I'll let them explain in their own words:

::  The bear, more than any other teacher, gave an answer to the
::  ultimate question... an astonishing, astounding, improbable
::  answer, enacted rather than revealed.  Its passage into the earth,
::  winter's death, and burial under the snow was like a punctuation
::  in the round of life that would begin again with its emergence in
::  the spring...

::  The miracle was double, for the bear burst out with young -- birth
::  and rebirth.  Somehow the bear knew when to reenter the world
::  again, emerging just ahead of the snowmelt, as though its very
::  heat set the new year in motion... Clearly the bear was master of
::  renewal and the wheel of the seasons.

::  The bear 'knows' about death and how to survive it... She is
::  therefore seen by traditional peoples as a guide to the movement
::  between worlds.

So the bear is not only the first shaman, s/he's also the first dying and
rising God, and the first divine "Mother and Child" -- teaching us two
things that are still at the heart of religion 40,000 years later: nativity
and resurrection!

*

At completion of play, we could post a bulletin containing all ten moves in
detail, and the board itself would look like this:

                      God
                      / \
                     /   \
                    /     \
                   /       \
           Bear Cult-------Madonna
                 / \       / \
                /   \     /   \
               /     \   /     \
              /       \ /       \
     Hibernation-----Dream-----Anima Mundi
            / \       / \       / \
           /   \     /   \     /   \
          /     \   /     \   /     \
         /       \ /       \ /       \
    Nature--Tooth & Claw--Tooth Ma---Anima

*

I'd been thinking about how to respond to all the marvellous responses to
the Game idea that have already appeared on the list from Walter, Stephen,
Leanne and Judith -- and in particular, how to talk about the possibility
of a Dream based Game -- when this particular dream image of the Bear
Madonna popped into my mind: what you've just read was written late last
night and early this morning.

I had the dream -- or eidetic image, or whatever -- a few years back, but
hadn't thought about it much, although I *had* read Shepard and Sanders'
book, and written a chapter in a work-in-progress of my own that explores
the ideas in the final move in greater detail.  I don't believe I'd
connected the "Bear Madonna" image with the "Bear as Resurrecting God",
though, until last night...

In any case, this shows you *one* way in which a Dream Game could be
structured and played on list: this one happens to involve one Dreamer and
three Players.  It's by no means the *only* way, though, and possibly not
even the best.  I'll talk about some of the others when I respond to the
recent flurry of posts, and try to answer some of the "how to" questions
that Stephen and Walter have raised.

As to the "therapeutic" aspect...

In this particular example, I've stayed with the more abstract / archetypal
possibilities, which happens to fit well with my own instincts as a poet.
But I imagine that if we had a "live" recently dreamed Dream, we could
choose to take a more interactive route, in which the Dreamer responded to
questions and suggestions from listmembers, issues of personality and
personal situation were addressed -- and we had our "Guide" to gently steer
the whole discussion in psychologically nurturing directions.

But I'm still trying to see how we can make this a "unique iteration" as
Stephen requested, and the idea of a Dream Game is experimental in itself
-- not to mention the idea of a Dream Game played on list...  So it's
exciting, and I hiope I've given you some clue as to how a Game might work
in practice -- but we still have a lot of possibilities to explore and
choices to make...

Best wishes and thanks to all,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From ramorris@mci.newscorp.com Thu Feb 08 13:15:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Unsubscribe
From: RACHEL MORRIS <ramorris@mci.newscorp.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:15:10 -0500 (EST)


Unsubscribe





From hipbone@earthlink.net Thu Feb 08 13:59:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Thanks...
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 16:59:23 -0800


Three wonderful -- and rapid -- responses to my posts yesterday, suggesting
we play a game on-list...

Walter wrote:

> Yes, and most of all a wonderful thing to give a go for its own
> sake.  I'm all for it.

Stephen:

> Count me in! I'm intrigued.

> There is also the hint here of activating the imagination and giving
> the gods some room for serious play.

Leanne:

> Anyway, what I just read about the introduction of the games
> described by Charles sounds *very interesting* and exciting to
> me.  I would be interested in participating if the time needed is not
> too extensive.

My warmest thanks to each of you... that's terrific encouragement.

*

Late breaking news -- Judith and Gavin, welcome aboard.

Gavin, if you'd like me to bounce my first few "PLG" posts to you, drop me
a note off-list and I'll do it.

Best wishes,



--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Thu Feb 08 13:59:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Practical Considerations
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 16:59:31 -0800


Stephen asked:

> Charles: what number of persons would be needed for this to work (here)
>in your estimation?

Each Game consists of ten moves, which can be made by one player (a solo
game), two (in a game which can be competitive or cooperative or possibly
even both), three players (with the final move being a collaborative
summation of the game), five (I suppose) or ten...

There have been three on-list "Games Festivals" so far.

The first one consisted of three two-person Games, played over the course
of about five weeks on a list that had many other threads going at the same
time.  We chose this format so that each player would post one move a week,
and so that list members would only have one move a day on average to read
(or delete)...   We used the "TenStones" board, based on the Sephirotic
Tree in Kabballah.

The second consisted of ten two-person Games running simultaneously, with
about six non-playing observers along for the ride: but this was on a
"seminar" list which had convened on this occasion for this purpose.  We
began with about a week of posts describing the rules, methods of obtaining
boards, etc, introducing the 26 participants to one another, and finalizing
who would play with whom.  When the Games proper began, we encouraged
players to post their individual moves to their own partners, to myself and
the moderator, and not to the list as a whole.  The moderator and myself
then posted bulletins containing batches of games to the whole list as the
games reached their second and sixth moves, and finished games one at a
time as they were completed.  We scheduled two weeks, I think, for this
part of the process.  And finally, we had a week of comments and wrap up...
We used the "WaterBird" board in nine of these Games, and the "TenStones"
board in the tenth -- which was about Yeats and Jung, both of whom had an
interest in Kabballah.

The third consisted of a single Game, played by the ten members of a
private mailing list.  Each member made one move, and the ensuing game was
a marvellous bringing together of the group's energies, as well as a
"polyphonic" group statement...  Here again, other threads were buzzing on
the list at the same time.  This one was played on the "WaterBird" board.

> Also, would the playing of the game through the Psyber-L "address"
>inhibit entries into the thought-stream of the group?

I suggested privately to Walter that we shouldn't start in on the Game
until one or two fairly "robust" looking threads were already up and
running.  I believe that if the Game thread is clearly marked "PLG", and we
all make an effort to contribute to other discussions on the list, there
should be no real problem...  after all, any active list will always have
some threads running that interest some folks more than others...

> Similarly, could new players jump in midway through the game?

In a "regular" Game, no.  In a free-form variant, yes -- although I have
reasons to think that rules and constraints are important, and that playing
with too few constraints is (in Robert Frost's immortal words) like playing
tennis without a net.  In a game specially devised for this particular list
-- who knows?  There are any number of ways a Game could be structured...

> I'd be willing to do the grunt work to seed solicitations for
>participation if enough of the *sixty-two* didn't want to join in.

I'm pretty sure that the *most* games we would want to have going would be
three, to keep the posts to about one a day -- though as I indicated above,
a Dream-Game would no doubt find its own rhythm as we went along...

And the folks who have already indicated an interest here would certainly
be enough to get things started, though others are more than welcome...

> Finally, can you anticipate the demand on our time to be fully active as
>a participant or describe what the constraints might be?

I generally find it helpful for people to have three days from the time
they receive a move from someone else to the time they make their own move
in response to it.  Some of this time goes into unconscious processing, a
little probably goes into reverie at odd moments over the course of the
three days, and maybe an hour or three goes into the actual writing of a
move.  So a player in a two person Game is committing to "an hour or three"
about once a week for five weeks.

But that's a "regular" Game, and as I say, a Game dealing with dream
materials might require a whole new format...

*

Let's talk some more about a Game that's designed to explore the symbolism
of a dream.   I've posted one such possibility already -- the Bear Madonna
Game -- but as you'll have seen, this particular Game was impersonal /
collective / archetypal rather than personal, and we might want to try for
a mix of the personal and archetypal -- although that's asking a lot of the
Dreamer.

To give you an example: another and more personal way to go would involve
three stages.  In the first, someone would offer up a dream for our
consideration as before; in the second, any number of people could
contribute insights and suggestions about the symbolism; and in the third
-- which might well overlap with the second -- the Dreamer and Walter (as
"Guide" and facilitator?) would work together towards the formalization of
the materials into discrete moves and links on the board...  trying to
separate the various *strands that resonate with the Dreamer* and weave
them into a web...  synthesis rather than analysis being the eventual
objective.

This is effectively the same kind of process that goes on in brainstorming,
where in stage one a problem is posed, in stage two everyone spills as many
ideas as possible into a common pool *without judgement*, and selecting (or
mixing and matching to create) the final solution happens later, in stage
three.  And the non-judgmental nature of stage two is essential, since the
final solution is often based at least in part on some joke or frivolous
aside that would never have seen the light of day if every idea proposed
had met with immediate criticism.

Alchemically speaking, I guess this would be "dissolve and coagulate" --
with the board coming into its own as the vehicle for clarification...

In the final analysis, I believe our decisions about a Dream Game design
should reflect the needs of the Dreamer, and his/her real -- and valued --
vulnerability.  This in turn means we the other players / posters would
need to be sensitive but not timid... and Walter could be a great help
here, nudging things in positive therapeutic directions.

*

If we played two two-person Games -- or a three person Game -- and one
Dream Game, we'd probably get an interesting blend...  Another possibility
is to try a Game that uses one of my boards as if it were a Sand Tray...

I trust this begins to answer some of the questions Walter raised, as well
as Stephen's.  Walter, I'll hopefully get to your questions about privacy
and archives and quoting people in my next post.  Briefly, I don't
anticipate any problems... but sensitivity to people's wishes is definitely
part of the program...

Let's keep thinking out loud together for a while.

Best wishes as always...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Thu Feb 08 13:59:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: List Servers was Halls and Doorways
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 16:59:41 -0800


Walter wrote:

> On a more direct and practical level . . . .

> In New Zealand we pay to send mail AND to receive it.  (I
> believe, and I also hear that in the US it is not like this) This
> means I pay roughly a cent or two per message to each subscriber
> -- this adds up, especially when there are many messages and
> many subscribers.

That's *terrible*, Walter.  I pay my server here in Los Angeles a flat fee
of $20 per month for as much on-line time as I care to use, any time, day
or night, 365 days a year, including any amount of web browsing and any
amount of e-mail in and out.  Plus another $8 to my phone company for
unlimited local calls -- and all my internet use is local.  And if I were
to set up a web page, my server would carry up to 2MB free of charge...

Maybe you should find a venture capitalist and set up a NZ service provider
with that kind of an arrangement -- it sounds as though you might make a
killing, and could hire people to run the thing for you...  <semi-serious
joke>...

More practically, perhaps:

I'm actually the non-technical joint list owner of a small list that's kept
on a University computer somewhere in Michigan, free of charge, because the
techie list owner works there.  And on the rare occasions when messages
that are bounced back from a delinquent subscriber begin to echo back and
forth and pile up ("This is to tell you your message saying "This is to
tell you your message saying "This is to tell you, etc... was refused"), I
just post one command to the list server, and calm once more prevails.

Would it be possible for you to come to a similar arrangement with an
academic colleague in the States?  They'd "front" the list on their
university server, and be co-owner, and you'd still do the bulk of the work
-- but at least you wouldn't be paying for every single message to every
single subscriber...

> Some of the things I have that I don't want to loose:

> 1. The way people can get text files (send a message to
> info@link.southern.co.nz  -- no subject no text in the body, to see
> what I mean)

As far as I know, that comes standard with the territory.

> 2.  I can set up a list at the drop of a hat -- for example one for the
> Game should we so desire... ie I can create shops off the mall...

That's a little harder, but a sophisticated list server program can handle
multiple "topics" on one list in such a way that by default, subscribers
get only those posts which carry no special tag (such as my "PLG") in their
subject line, and those who wish to receive specific tagged posts can
subscribe accordingly.

That probably comes to much the same thing as having a variety of
independent lists running... with the one exception that anyone who wants
to go into "digest" mode gets everything, tags and all -- so you'd probably
need to disable the "digest" option.  The trick here would be finding a
friendly soul with that kind of program at their academic site, and a
willingness to work with you...

*

As I say, I'm not a technical whiz myself, and others may be able to
suggest better approaches, or disabuse me if I'm getting things wrong.  But
that's my understanding of what's possible at present.

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Thu Feb 08 18:19:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG:Tama Wants in if possible?
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 18:19:23 +1300 (NZDT)


Hi all!!
"Tama,  Jb, you in?"-Ya ha count me in...
I have just been water blasting paint off fences & are going to paint some
for a bit of cash,  but I'm sure I can make time & visit the uni computer
labs once a day.
But first I have to go print your example out Charles and figure it out.

Pretty soon my mother might even get a grant from the government to get a
P.C-being online at home would be exellent.

The Americans are pretty lucky with prices,  speed and internet access.The
NZ system is a little primordial & is in a time of change at the moment.The
main NZ off shore base the university of Waikato has just sold\leased it's
operation to NZ's main telephone companys Telecom & Clear,  so now we will
have a competetion between them and a broad time laspe in which these guys
figure out what there policies are towards companys that want to lease
space and time.
But the other thing is that NZ's actual Internet cableing is not that high
tech,  fast or can't carry as much as the US far superior system.Hopefully
though in the next 2-3 years the Telephone companies will get off their
butts and work the situation out!!

Your doing a commendable job-charles-I am pretty enthuasiastic about this
game playing-I love playing games,  and it will be pretty interesting, to
discover & gain these merits you have discussed-through playing a game.The
dream game sounds good-I have a good couple of dreams every wk.My friend
Danny has just about 2 a day!!

 Oh well I'll check my mail tomorrow & with any luck I will understand the
rules.
Bye all!!


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                         New Zealand
                                *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Feb 09 01:37:01 1996
To: RACHEL MORRIS <ramorris@mci.newscorp.com>
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 12:37:01 GMT

On Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:15:10 -0500 (EST), RACHEL MORRIS
<ramorris@mci.newscorp.com> wrote:

> 
> Unsubscribe
> 



Here is the information you need, thanks for your interest.

Walter 


== To Unsubscribe from the List  ==

Send a message to:
listserv@link.southern.co.nz  


Write nothing in the text except:


unsub PSYBER-L


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Feb 09 02:26:34 1996
To: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: PLG: Practical Considerations
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 13:26:34 GMT

Dear Charles and all,

You are doing a thorough job in educating us about the game.  I
_almost_ can see it in action.  I can see too that there are the
two roles, the one you are doing -- explaining the rules and
maintaining the structure -- does that role have a name?  And the
one you call Guide.  Therapeutic guide -- it is one of the roles
that we were encouraged to develop in our training in psychodrama
-- it comes in many shapes -- I'd be willing to take it on -- I
would need help from you in ensuring everyone (including me)
understood the structural aspects, such as knowing whose turn it
was and so on.

> a Dream-Game would no doubt find its own rhythm as we went along...

I have the sort of excitement about this that is captured in the
children's book called something like "where the wild things are"
Max goes to his room and commands the creatures of his
imagination:  "Let the wild rumpus begin!"  

> But that's a "regular" Game, and as I say, a Game dealing with dream
> materials might require a whole new format...

Is the one you propose below OK or do we need to develop it more?

> To give you an example: another and more personal way to go would involve
> three stages.  In the first, someone would offer up a dream for our
> consideration as before; in the second, any number of people could
> contribute insights and suggestions about the symbolism; and in the third
> -- which might well overlap with the second -- the Dreamer and Walter (as
> "Guide" and facilitator?) would work together towards the formalization of
> the materials into discrete moves and links on the board...  trying to
> separate the various *strands that resonate with the Dreamer* and weave
> them into a web...  synthesis rather than analysis being the eventual
> objective.

WEB  --- yes a familiar theme here . . .

> vulnerability.  This in turn means we the other players / posters would
> need to be sensitive but not timid... and Walter could be a great help
> here, nudging things in positive therapeutic directions.

Hmmm . . . sometimes the therapeutic direction is somewhat
shocking or dark -- I would want to nudge the process (if at all)
into its authenticity -- The positivity that comes into play is
the acceptance of whatever occurs -- the "and _that_ is OK too"
attitude -- to trust the process.  This is what you mean anyway,
I guess . . .  

> Let's keep thinking out loud together for a while.

Yes . . . 

As Tama says Charles you are doing a commendable job -- thanks.  


Walter 



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Feb 09 02:27:43 1996
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: PLG: Practical Considerations
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 13:27:43 GMT

Dear Charles and all,

You are doing a thorough job in educating us about the game.  I
_almost_ can see it in action.  I can see too that there are the
two roles, the one you are doing -- explaining the rules and
maintaining the structure -- does that role have a name?  And the
one you call Guide.  Therapeutic guide -- it is one of the roles
that we were encouraged to develop in our training in psychodrama
-- it comes in many shapes -- I'd be willing to take it on -- I
would need help from you in ensuring everyone (including me)
understood the structural aspects, such as knowing whose turn it
was and so on.

> a Dream-Game would no doubt find its own rhythm as we went along...

I have the sort of excitement about this that is captured in the
children's book called something like "where the wild things are"
Max goes to his room and commands the creatures of his
imagination:  "Let the wild rumpus begin!"  

> But that's a "regular" Game, and as I say, a Game dealing with dream
> materials might require a whole new format...

Is the one you propose below OK or do we need to develop it more?

> To give you an example: another and more personal way to go would involve
> three stages.  In the first, someone would offer up a dream for our
> consideration as before; in the second, any number of people could
> contribute insights and suggestions about the symbolism; and in the third
> -- which might well overlap with the second -- the Dreamer and Walter (as
> "Guide" and facilitator?) would work together towards the formalization of
> the materials into discrete moves and links on the board...  trying to
> separate the various *strands that resonate with the Dreamer* and weave
> them into a web...  synthesis rather than analysis being the eventual
> objective.

WEB  --- yes a familiar theme here . . .

> vulnerability.  This in turn means we the other players / posters would
> need to be sensitive but not timid... and Walter could be a great help
> here, nudging things in positive therapeutic directions.

Hmmm . . . sometimes the therapeutic direction is somewhat
shocking or dark -- I would want to nudge the process (if at all)
into its authenticity -- The positivity that comes into play is
the acceptance of whatever occurs -- the "and _that_ is OK too"
attitude -- to trust the process.  This is what you mean anyway,
I guess . . .  

> Let's keep thinking out loud together for a while.

Yes . . . 

As Tama says Charles you are doing a commendable job -- thanks.  


Walter 




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Feb 09 02:29:00 1996
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 13:29:00 GMT

On Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:15:10 -0500 (EST), RACHEL MORRIS
<ramorris@mci.newscorp.com> wrote:

> 
> Unsubscribe
> 



Here is the information you need, thanks for your interest.

Walter 


== To Unsubscribe from the List  ==

Send a message to:
listserv@link.southern.co.nz  


Write nothing in the text except:


unsub PSYBER-L


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From judithb@sbc1.com Fri Feb 09 02:34:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Limitations
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: 08 Feb 1996 13:34:15 GMT


Charles wrote
<
That's *terrible*, Walter.  I pay my server here in Los Angeles a flat fee
of $20 per month for as much on-line time as I care to use, any time, day
or night, 365 days a year, including any amount of web browsing and any
amount of e-mail in and out.  Plus another $8 to my phone company for
unlimited local calls -- and all my internet use is local.  And if I were
to set up a web page, my server would carry up to 2MB free of charge...>

Walter's news for me about paying for messages snapped me back into
reality...as Charles indicates the competition in the US has moved IAP's into
this commodity pricing. However, people accessing thru AOL et al are paying
time on-line charges bless the money machine's heart:-)
Anyway I'll check with my group and see if they have suggestions, depending
on whether Walter wants to off load which brings up a whole other set of
considerations.

I must say hearing the news of cost per message quieted me down;-) and now I
see one of the issues around for profit for Walter's lists.One of my PhD
classmates in Montana had to pay long distance changes while using AOL for
class and it was running more than the tuition. But then there weren't alot
of local opportunities for PhDing in White Fish:-)

Well, off to f2f with Stephen.I too am printing out the game to contemplate.
I think you are onto something IMHO.

jb
JudithB@sbc1.com

-- 
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Feb 09 02:49:33 1996
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: List Servers was Halls and Doorways
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 13:49:33 GMT

Charles and all,

> That's *terrible*, Walter.  

I know!  It is as Tama says to do with our set-up here all those
miles away -- unless it is just a rip off?  

> Maybe you should find a venture capitalist and set up a NZ service provider
> with that kind of an arrangement -- it sounds as though you might make a
> killing, and could hire people to run the thing for you...  <semi-serious
> joke>...

They are already onto it -- I checked out Voyager today -- new to
New Zealand -- I think they are cheaper but cant do listserv.

> Would it be possible for you to come to a similar arrangement with an
> academic colleague in the States?  They'd "front" the list on their
> university server, and be co-owner, and you'd still do the bulk of the work
> -- but at least you wouldn't be paying for every single message to every
> single subscriber...

This is the answer I think -- or even pay for it at a much better
rate with a good provider based in the US, or anywhere in the
world for that matter.  

Is anyone reading this on the list about listservers if there is
such a thing.  Any information welcome or offers from a
prospective co-owner.  Steve Bond, who reads this list is brewing
up something -- but it is several months away . . . 
 
> > 2.  I can set up a list at the drop of a hat -- for example one for the
> > Game should we so desire... ie I can create shops off the mall...
> 
> That's a little harder, but a sophisticated list server program can handle
> multiple "topics" on one list in such a way that by default, subscribers
> get only those posts which carry no special tag (such as my "PLG") in their
> subject line, and those who wish to receive specific tagged posts can
> subscribe accordingly.

It might be possible to have separate lists.  I like that option
-- it is to do with the container aspect -- temenos? -- the
possibility is there then to have closed lists with a definite
focus etc.  Should be possible -- even for me to set things up
remotely via telnet.

Your suggestion of separating topics out does sound really good
too.

> The trick here would be finding a
> friendly soul with that kind of program at their academic site, and a
> willingness to work with you...

Yes.  I have a couple of other leads in this direction to check
on!   It is a time of over commitment for me right now . . . but
all this can happen slowly.  

[aside:]
Why do I take on this extra ball of being a Game guide?  God
knows -- I am honoured and it think I can do it . . . yet . . .I
would also like to just participate. . . the sorting out of the
themes and strands that resonate with the dreamer _is_
participation  . . . the "yes" is very strong.   It could happen
of course that I have a dream . . . 



Walter.


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Feb 09 03:43:52 1996
To: ctpost@aol.com
Subject: Hi
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 14:43:52 GMT

Ron,

How are you doing?

I am back into it -- cyberspace -- it seems after a long break
over our summer -- are you well!

Are you still at this address?


walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From lhall@humanitas.ucsb.edu Fri Feb 09 06:37:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Charles' game
From: leanne Hall <lhall@humanitas.ucsb.edu>
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 09:37:24 -0800 (PST)


Hello all,

I read Charles' description of a sample game based on dream interpretation
(I do need to go back over it again though to thoroughly digest it) and I
think this sounds like a *great* idea.  I'm very interested in dreams
(reading two books on it presently) especially in exploring how dreams
function in helping us realize where we might have gone "off track" in our
lives or where we need to develop more fully.  So...a game based on dreams
would be of special interest to me.

Charles wrote:

But I'm still trying to see how we can make this a "unique iteration" as
Stephen requested, and the idea of a Dream Game is experimental in itself
-- not to mention the idea of a Dream Game played on list...  So it's
exciting, and I hiope I've given you some clue as to how a Game might work
in practice -- but we still have a lot of possibilities to explore and
choices to make...

The fact that playing a game based on a dream is experimental makes it all
the more exciting--we'd be exploring new territory, who knows what we might
discover??? or uncover???

Stephen asked about new players jumping in in the middle of a game and
Charles replied:

In a "regular" Game, no.  In a free-form variant, yes -- although I have
reasons to think that rules and constraints are important, and that playing
with too few constraints is (in Robert Frost's immortal words) like playing
tennis without a net.  In a game specially devised for this particular list
-- who knows?  There are any number of ways a Game could be structured...

I also think rules and constraints are important (to avoid confusion at the
very least) so would it be possible to create a new game for new players as
they expressed interest in playing or would this be too time-consuming and
cumbersome?

I was pleased to see Charles' response to Stephen's question about time
constraints.  I could reasonably commit to 1-3 hours per week for a game
response.  I use my computer at work presently to access this list so
because, obviously, I have other demands on my time here, I am concerned
about the time involved in playing the game.

Look forward to more information about the games.

All the best,

Leanne
 



****************************************************************************






From hipbone@earthlink.net Fri Feb 09 12:26:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG Bear Madonna Dream Game
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 15:26:51 -0800


Just for the record, Walter, folks:

I sent a copy of my "Bear Madonna Game" post to a couple of friends
privately, and Steven Cranmer, the friend who provided me with the
Tetraktys board I used for that game, mentioned it today on Magister-L, a
small list that I run for the discussion of spirituality and games...
Steve also mentioned the name "Psyber-L", and asked about it.

Which, technically at least, he shouldn't have done, because I'd sent him a
private message...  but he wondered whether Psyber-L was connected to
Magister-L, and liked the sample Game, and wanted to know more...

In any case...

I just posted a message to Magister-L saying a little about Psybernet and
Psyber-L, and giving directions to Walter's home page -- and I also posted
the "Bear Madonna Game" itself to Magister-L, after editing out the extra
stuff I posted here thanking Walter and others for their encouragement, and
discussing possible approaches to setting up a a Dream Game on this list...

All of which means that some of the folks on Magister-L who are designing
various versions of "Glass Bead Games" in the spirit of Hesse's book now
know about Psyber-L, and know that we are contemplating a Game or two... so
a couple of them may wind up subscribing to Psyber-L, and joining us in the
Games...

I don't see a problem here, although I wasn't particularly intending to
tell the Magister-L folks about our Games at this point...  But I thought
you ought to know that this particular cat is out of the bag...

And if Magister-L sounds interesting to any of you, we have a web page at:

>>> http://drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu/~jae/magister.html

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Fri Feb 09 23:04:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Dream Game CORREX
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 02:04:16 -0800


I only have time for a brief note tonight, but for the sake of those who
may have been puzzled, I'd like to correct a typo in my sample Game post
(there are others, but this is the one that's potentially confusing).

Player 1 places "God" in position 0 at the top of the board, as I have
indicated in the complete board at Game's end -- not in position 1, as
stated in the text.  Player 2 places "Nature" in position 1 as stated.

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Sat Feb 10 12:41:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: I dunno? Just saying Hi
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 12:41:10 +1300 (NZDT)


Hello,

Just a brief message to say to everyone,  Awesome,  really looking forward
to this new game!!
Hey charles I have The Glass Bead Game out from the Library and will read
it soon.
Hopefully I will start painting a fence today.I just sold my old Amiga 500
today-yay.

Oh well I'll be ready when ever?  I've just printed out your messages
Charles and will read them today or tommorow,  nayway all the best to every
one bye...


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                         New Zealand
                                *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Feb 10 19:41:18 1996
To: listserv@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: 
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 06:41:18 GMT

review Psyber-l
review Aion
review herenow
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From jgarneau@igs.net Sun Feb 11 04:46:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: 
From: "B.Jean Garneau" <jgarneau@igs.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:46:59 -0500


unsubscribe






From hipbone@earthlink.net Sun Feb 11 09:58:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Walter's Game Koan
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 12:58:08 -0800


Walter asks a trick question or two, which I can't resist attempting to
answer in somewhat devious manner:

> Is a group, with its format and norms (rules) a game?  I expect
> you will say yes.  In that case is a game a group?

*

Surely the world itself is a game, a sport, and a play, Walter.  Thus
FitzGerald tells us we are:

            But helpless Pieces of the Game He plays
            Upon this Chequer-board of Nights and Days

while Shakespeare writes:

            As Flies to wanton Boyes, are we to th'Gods,
            They kill us for their sport.

and Plotinus:

::  On earth, in all the succession of life, it is not the Soul within but
::  the Shadow outside of the authentic man, that grieves and
::  complains and acts out the plot on this world stage which men
::  have dotted with stages of their own constructing.

*

And yet, Tossing the Caber is not a game nor a play but a sport...  Chess
is not a sport nor a play, but a game...  As You Like It is not a sport nor
a game, but a play...

while the Glass Bead Game is both art form and meditation...

*

Do you know James Carse's wonderful little book, *Finite and Infinite Games*?


--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Feb 11 12:47:05 1996
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: How to unsub
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 23:47:05 GMT

On Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:46:59 -0500, "B.Jean Garneau"
<jgarneau@igs.net> wrote:

> 
> unsubscribe
> 


Here is the information you need, thanks for your interest.

Walter 


== To Unsubscribe from the List  ==

Send a message to:
listserv@link.southern.co.nz  


Write nothing in the text except:


unsub PSYBER-L

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Feb 11 16:25:20 1996
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz 
Subject: Re: PLG: Walter's Game Koan
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 03:25:20 GMT

Dear Charles,

> Walter asks a trick question or two, which I can't resist attempting to
> answer in somewhat devious manner:

Hmm . . . not consciously, nor can I see how your answer is
devious . . . thoughtful and interesting and I enjoy the ideas .
. .

I have some distrust of the notion of life as game though not in
the way you are presenting it.  I am very cautious calling
peoples behaviour a game.  It is very common in health circles to
blame the patients/clients for "playing games".  Often this
notion that some form of pain is false and should not be there is
internalised in people who use it to berate themselves.  Even
Berne's book, Games People Play can contribute to us feeling bad
about our behaviours even as he presents ways of changing.  

This is just an aside -- not playing games I hope!
> Do you know James Carse's wonderful little book, *Finite and Infinite Games*?

I'll look into it.

Walter.


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Feb 12 17:06:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG:I had some dreams?
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 17:06:15 +1300 (NZDT)


I about 3 dreams last night- pretty crazy-one thing I wanna say is that I
dunno-do all dreams hve to have some deep inner message-some of mine seem
just to be crazy-like a movie or something-well anyway I will describe some
of them when I have some more time.Oh well my mum is waiting on me so i
should really scidaddle-she says she might have to have a chat to some of
you guys sometime-pretty deep stuff you guys discuss?
  Oh well I write back tomorrow or the next day depending on the
weather!!-Bye...


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                         New Zealand
                                *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Feb 17 01:00:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: PLG:I had some dreams?
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:00:50 GMT

Tama and all in Psyber-L,

What a strange place it is here -- I sometimes expect things to
be silent and enjoyed Charles' accepting note about it the other
day.

I did not expect this silence at this point -- I have gone
through the usual -- "did I say something BAD!" fantasy.  I am
looking foward to more about the collaboration idea that Stephen
mentioned, more on the Psybernet Small Groups, and the fate of
the H&N, more on the description of the list -- and especially on
the games.

> I about 3 dreams last night- pretty crazy-one thing I wanna say is that I
> dunno-do all dreams hve to have some deep inner message-some of mine seem
> just to be crazy-like a movie or something-well anyway I will describe some
> of them when I have some more time.

Time!  Go for it Tama.. . you know i think the dreams posted here
tell us a lot about the life of the group.

> Oh well my mum is waiting on me so i
> should really scidaddle-she says she might have to have a chat to some of
> you guys sometime-pretty deep stuff you guys discuss?

and you.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Feb 17 01:04:51 1996
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Description of the list.
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:04:51 GMT

Hi,

I had call to send it out today -- and updated it -- what do you
think?


-=-=-=-=  Psybernet Mailing List  -=-=-=-=  
     
Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the
effects of email groups and lists on group life and the psyche.

Topics include: 

The art of leadership in communication networks.  The impact on
organisations of tele-computing.  Creating communication
environments.  Gender issues.  Imagination, metaphors,
archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and
the unconscious.  Special focus on  how these psychological
phenomena relate to cyberspace. 

The range of discussion here is broad, this enables us to learn
directly from our experience of the medium.  It is a place where
the development of relationships around these interests is an
important part of the work.  The aim is to foster experiential
learning.

The list is an important part of the larger Psybernet project
which includes Psybernet Small Groups.  These are professionally
facilitated psychological email groups, for which there is a fee
for membership.  Announcements about Psybernet groups will be
made in this list.
 
The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman, no censorship or
editing has taken place, however discussion of how the list is
facilitated is integral to its purpose. Psyber-L is archived, see
the WWW pages for details.

To join the Psybernet Mailing List, send a message to:  

listserv@link.southern.co.nz, in the body of the text write:   

sub PSYBER-L

Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive a welcome
message by return mail.  This can take up to 2 hours on this
system.

To leave the list follow the instructions above and replace sub
with unsub. 

     ------------------== Contact points  ==--------------
     Psybernet, Walter Logeman  (Sysop)
     Fax                      64-3-377-1207
     Answerphone             +64-3-377-1206
     Email                    walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
     WWW    http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Feb 17 01:07:08 1996
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Listservers in the USA
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:07:08 GMT

I have found out quite a bit about list providers in the us.  I
am seeking to have this list hosted in the us, and it sounds like
there are some good options.  Will keep you posted.

walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Sat Feb 17 07:44:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Games
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:44:45 -0500


Charles,

Let's get on with it. The game, I mean. If we have enough participants
please commence; if we don't send me a description and I'll post to
Net_Dynamics and we will get a bunch of respondants.

(I can't tell if I'm threatening or promising!)

Otherwise, advise accordingly.

Stephen

The heart outstrips the senses, and sees-perhaps for an instant, perhaps
for longer periods of bliss-an undistorted and more veritable world.

>>Evelyn Underhill






From hoon@apk.net Sat Feb 17 07:51:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psyber-L description
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:51:29 -0500


Walter and all,

On one level, it's your list and whatever you want the description to be is
fine by me.

Yet, you ask, so I wonder if this list is going to more of a cooperative
conception?

I raise these 'loaded' issues because I'm unsure how you wish for Psyber-L
to serve as a gateway into your own projects, especially those which are
entrepreneurial in nature. ;-) I don't think these needs of yours, mine,
ours, are not compatible but I do think the old Psyber-L description is
kind of worn out. ;-)

My own thought, again, is to use a broad(er) brush to paint the conception
of Psyber-L.


>-=-=-=-=  Psybernet Mailing List  -=-=-=-=
>
>Psybernet Mailing List aims to engage those interested in exploring the
>intersection of Psyche and the Internet.
>
>
>The range of discussion here is broad, this enables us to learn
>directly from our experience of the medium.  It is a place where
>the development of relationships around these interests is an
>important part of the work.  The aim is to foster experiential
>learning.

Psyber-net Mailing list will also be the entry point for various
experiments, games, groupwork, study groups, and ensemble playing, all of
which in some way concern the wide-ranging concerns which arise from
considering the Psyche, individuation, eros, soul, spirit, myth, dreams,
metaphor and symbol (etc.,) as they are enjoined by the medium of the
internet.

>The list is an important part of the larger Psybernet project
>which includes Psybernet Small Groups.  These are professionally
>facilitated psychological email groups, for which there is a fee
>for membership.  Announcements about Psybernet groups will be
>made in this list.
>
>The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman, no censorship or
>editing has taken place, however discussion of how the list is
>facilitated is integral to its purpose. Psyber-L is archived, see
>the WWW pages for details.
>
[snip]

I'm groping for my own purposes, Walter! Looking to help keep this place
alive by giving it a unique and compelling pirpose that you can only find
here and help it serve as a practical doorway to your own extensions...

and perhaps mine too.

Best and better,

Stephen

The heart outstrips the senses, and sees-perhaps for an instant, perhaps
for longer periods of bliss-an undistorted and more veritable world.

>>Evelyn Underhill






From hoon@apk.net Sat Feb 17 08:00:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG:I had some dreams?
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:00:42 -0500


Psyberati,

>I did not expect this silence at this point -- I have gone
>through the usual -- "did I say something BAD!" fantasy.

I've decided ten months into my internet 'phase' that whatever somebody's
terminal (i.e. leave or stay,) response is to whatever it is I have to say
as a matter of self-expression is: their own tough noogies!

So, when I see people unsubscribe, I say to my self, "You loser, now you'll
never be able to learn from my immensity."

:-)

***

>> should really scidaddle-she says she might have to have a chat to some of
>> you guys sometime-pretty deep stuff you guys discuss?
>

ROFL

In terms of the archetypal psyche,. she already is chatting with us!

Stephen

"The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and
write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."

        >>>Alvin Toffler






From hipbone@earthlink.net Sat Feb 17 11:37:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Re: Dreams & Games
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:37:33 -0800


Re: Dreams & Games

Walter writes:

> What a strange place it is here -- I sometimes expect things to be
> silent and enjoyed Charles' accepting note about it the other day...

> I did not expect this silence at this point -- I have gone through the
> usual -- "did I say something BAD!" fantasy.

> I am looking foward to more about the collaboration idea ... -- and
> especially on the games.

and Stephen:

> Let's get on with it. The game, I mean. If we have enough
> participants please commence; if we don't send me a description
> and I'll post to Net_Dynamics and we will get a bunch of
> respondants.

My fault, probably, for not getting back to the list at once when Tama
wrote offering his dreams:

> 3 dreams last night- pretty crazy

I've been working hard on three "heavy" deadlines -- two for a job that
would last me through the next six months or so, one a proposal to Bill
Moyers for a series of Game related TV programs.  I just met the first job
deadline today, with the second, a rewrite, due Monday.  And I have the
sample Game for the Moyers proposal written, but not the cover materials.
So I hope to be freed up in about three days...

In any case.  On previous occasions, I have tried to prepare a bunch of
posts to acquaint people with the rules, availability of boards, etc
immediately before play.  But I'm getting the sense (strongly) that the
time is now, and that we should forego some of the niceties and move to it.

So be it -- and thanks for the nudges, folks.

I'll send my immediate suggestions in an accompanying post.



--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Sat Feb 17 11:37:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Games on Psyber-L
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:37:43 -0800


Okay, here are my thoughts about how to move right ahead on a Dream Game
without waiting for me to untangle myself from my current writing
deadlines...

1

We need a dream to work with (phase one).  I'd suggest that we invite Tama
and anyone else on the list who would like to try this to post a dream or
dreams to the list.  Not more than one dream per post, no commentary,
please.  I'd suggest we "keep the dor open" till Tuesday for these posts,
because so many people may not read their mail over the weekend, but that
on Wednesday we switch to phase two.

Ideally, a dream should be not too long and complex, but probably not as
short as my "Madonna Bear" one-image dream, and both "archetypal" and
"personal" materials would be fine, so nobody needs to worry too much about
whether their is the "right kind" of dream: if it's a recent dream, it's
the right kind.

2

On Wednesday (phase two) we would begin an open discussion of which dream
seems best suited to be used in play.  This could involve some preliminary
remarks about the kinds of associations the various dreams provoked from
subscribers, but would mainly focus on the length of the dream -- ie
choosing one that's not so small there's nothing to it, not so complex it
would take a dozen games to investigate.

I'd suggest we give *this* process till the weekend, and hopefully a
concensus should be beginning to emerge so that at the beginning of the
next week we could start in on one (or two / three?) particular dreams.

3

At this point (phase three), anyone and everyone could post their
associations in a format that would pick up on a word or theme in the
dream, and relate it to another word or theme, with a short sentence or two
of comment.  More "personal" comments could take the form of short
anecdotes.

I could start this phase rolling by posting some of my own responses, which
will give the rest of you an idea of the kinds of thing we're looking
for...

Our Dreamer would be invited to participate in this phase, too, and
encouraged to comment on the "feel and fit" of other people's associations.

4

We would, I think, begin to see "clusters of associations" and
"mini-threads" developing, and Walter (from the psychotherapeutic angle)
and I (from the "game design" side) -- with the Dreamer's help -- could
then begin to sort them (phase four) into "key words" on the board.

5

I'd suggest that Walter then "edit" the materials into 2 or 3 paragraph
explanations of the final "moves" and "links" (phase five) -- and again,
I'd be happy to help with this...

*

In the meantime, and if Stephen was willing, I'd like to invite him to play
a "regular" Game with me on the list, using my WaterBird board -- which can
be downloaded from:

>>> http://www.telepath.com/gail/deca/apoc01.html

This Game *wouldn't* be focussed on dream associations, but on the mutual
creation of a "music of ideas" by juxtaposing ten "items" (visual, textual,
musical) in the positions on the WaterBird board, in such a way that the
"ripples" between them are evocative and beautiful.  If Stephen is up for
doing this, I'll post a sample Game or two in the next two days -- and a
WaterBird board for those who can't access the board from the web -- and we
can begin.

And if we have any other volunteers for this kind of Game, we can set up
more Games...  Two players, five moves each, two days between moves,
roughly ten days a Game.

*

My sense is that the "Dream Game" would be the major (experimental) List
Game, with anyone who felt interested joining in at any point.

Playing a couple of "regular" games at the same time would help give
everyone a sense of how the links between moves work.  And they could be up
and running pretty quickly -- whereas the Dream Game requires phases one
through three to be pretty much completed before the constraints and
beauties of the Game Board really come into play.

*

Shall we?

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Sat Feb 17 12:49:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama talks about Claire-SHES BACK!!
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 12:49:49 +1300 (NZDT)


Hello people,

I picked up the phone and got an adrenalin rush from talking to someone on
the phone-crazy yes?(I caught a wave yeasterday after fighting the Rip of
the ocean-I was Body boarding and that wave hit me and sent me screaming
wow-It was beautiful out there) Well it happens to be that Claire girl whom
I really like.Shes back from Brunai-I had lunch with her yeasterday,  she
gave me a prayer mat-suffice to say that I'm not praying to mecca but using
as a mat in my room.I gave her a small book 101 the guide to life-it had
heaps of advice qoutes she liked it(perhaps I needed it more than her but
who knows).I also wrote an inscription-1 in Japanese as she is taking it at
uni-I put I love you in Jap-she could work out the I + the you but I told
her well its the complicated L word and she was "oh how sweet I'll ring you
tonight-as she has been working full time since coming back

But I'm slightly frustrated I have told her how I feel before but-and I
don't wont to go over dead ground but it's killing me!! I tried last night,
we talked only superfically-I had a feeling she really needed to
go-well-arrghgh Tama I really need to go-even if someone needed to use the
ph!! It's kinda funny-theres so many kinds of love-I dont know if I should
catagorize mine-but-it's not sexual attraction-shes pretty but-I really
care for her and seek to be cared for back-maybe I'm too needy for her-if
she can't handle something as simple & beautiful as a hug-she has on 2
occasions and it sent me high as a kite-I know that I could only love her
if I knew that she could commit herself to a realationship-she does not
want to be burdened down-but I dont wont to suffocate her,  or experiment-I
have been there-I just want a strong friend who is there for me-and whom I
can cuddle up to,  and feel JOY.Is it too much to ask I just "I just Wanna
soul mate to catch the next drift.."Alanis Morriset.

Wa wa WAIL!! To Scream at the top of my lungs I am Tama-take me into your
Arms I want to be with you!!

Comments anyone?


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                         New Zealand
                                *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






From yorkbay@wn.planet.gen.nz Sat Feb 17 13:05:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG some or other a word from Miles
From: The Thompson family <yorkbay@wn.planet.gen.nz>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 12:05 NZDT


jb wrote...

>I too am printing out the game to contemplate.
>I think you are onto something IMHO.
I printed the example out too, definitely starting to get the idea now.

I would love to be a part of the next session... So lets get to it? Um... 
one thing about it, do I understand that part of the thing is to sort of 
imagine yourself actually *on* the board and to make the next move in light 
of the moves/pieces/symbols/words that you could actually *see* from where 
you are? Well, I guess that would probably be alright if I wanted to do it 
that way :)

My perspective on the practical issues, is that at least for the first 
couple of games or so, having it in-list so to speak wouldn't hurt too much. 
You may find it helps the life of this group. 
The other thing, is that obviously the Psybernet home page is listed in some 
sort of Jungian pages list of links, somewhere, seeing as how people seem to 
have come to it from that way??? Can you tell where people have been 
refferred from Walter? (incidentally, I personally found Psybernet home page 
by Lycos searching for 'psybernet' so its in *there* as well.) Perhaps you 
(or I?) could recommend the link to other pages that we find related and 
interesting in a psybernet type way (you know where it says send us some 
email at the bottom half the time). To bring in people from other 
directions. Not that we want this group to get swamped.
The third thing is also practical. I just thought I should mention that I 
get my internet access from Planet FreeNZ who charge according to Consumer 
magazine are the cheapest option for a "Moderate" (or above) user, and who 
more to the point don't have any volume charges at all, and a very flexible 
time charge. They also have a policy that you can have your home page on 
their system for free. Just thought I should mention it.

Have a great old time y'all.

Miles





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Sat Feb 17 13:05:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG:Tama's Dreams!!
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 13:05:33 +1300 (NZDT)


Hi there,

  There was silence & I really wanted to speak but everytime I had to go,
so now I'm gonna provide you with some of my dreams!! + later on Tim
Leary's thoughts on the glass bead game +

  Well Tama's Dreams started again early last wk-proba has something to do
with sleeping in and being just on the verge of consciouness.
  The first dream was infact a continuation of a dream a vaguely remember
having a while ago.Well the dream was me a Teacher and a high school class
going to visit a gigatic Glass round sphere inside that had a base of
water,  inside this huge glass globe people flew gliders,  in my last dream
I had done so-flying high doing loops not quite knowing how to get back to
the landing base inside a alcove in the glass-being guided back by a guy
with a microphone an emergancy remore control unit in case of out of
control flying.Well this time it was different a girl from school got peer
presured into flying,  I went to watch,  she was flying amazingly looping
but then she just lost control,  and flew crashing through the glass,  that
was a horrifying feelinfg of dread,  I ran with the instructor through
doors, I said "call an ambulance" he talked to some people said"I have some
chemistry people to help out"-bizarre-then we found the plane mabled up the
cockpit was gonna be opened skip next dream.They go on like a series.
  Next I was in a video music shop with my mother found a video I was
looking for all the pesidents men,  + a star wars music cd,  I was looking
through some cds and a couple of guys were talking,  I listened in as I
sometimes do,  and one said what are you staring at you Fag!! I said shut
up I've been Sexually Harrased before I got a kid kicked out of school
once-I get you in trouble if you dont leave me alone.I felt inpowered and
carageous but later he came up to me and repeatedly kneed me in the
groin.Well at school some guys once hassled me and called me fag and really
oissed me off,  kinda victimizing me-but its not the fag bit it's the
eviolence and hatred that goes along with it.
then in went on to some action bit where I was on the run from bad guys and
I was involved in a shoot out-of course I was shhotting them to bits with a
laser.
 Mums here again so I will have to write about Tim leary & the Glass bead
Game later...
sorry its all a bit diusjointed-well have to go Bye.


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                         New Zealand
                                *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






From hipbone@earthlink.net Sat Feb 17 15:39:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Sample Game Apocalypse Now
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:39:17 -0800


Since I have already posted a "Dream Game" which was heavily Jungian and
spiritual in its themes, I thought it might be refreshing to follow up with
a sample of a regular Game played in a very different spirit -- as a
contest between two (fictional) college kids.  Their  aim is to claim the
largest *number* of links between their moves and other positions on the
board, and thus win the Game.  A contest Game of this kind can illustrate
the nature of links and the way the board operates, and the pop-cultural
moves made here will hopefully allow list members to realize that play in
these Games is by no means confined to "elevated" topics and "archetypal"
themes...

To follow this Game, you will need to print out the WaterBird board which I
am posting concurrently with this post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sample Game: Apocalypse Now

Move 1:  "Purple Haze" in 3

Harry won the toss, and made his first move.  He tapped the words
"Purple Haze" into the GameBoard displayed on his IBM clone at
position 3, and pushed the "send" button.  He already had his
second move in mind: "Orange Crush".

When Harry's move popped up on Tom's board, Tom guessed his
old friend was likely thinking about Hendrix and maybe LSD --
which wasn't an area that he, Tom, wanted to focus on.  So he
reminded himself that neither of the players' first moves can score,
and decided to nudge things in the direction of US military history --
a topic he was more familiar with, and one where he might well be
able to leave Harry stranded...

Move 2:  "Civil War" in 4

Tom played "Civil War" in the 4th position.

Move 3:  "Orange Crush" in 1

But Harry didn't pick up Tom's bait.  Instead, he played "Orange
Crush" in position 1 as he'd planned.  He claimed three links with
"Purple Haze" in 3, one because both are songs, the second because
both are the names of chemicals, and a third because both have a
color in their name.

A typical Harry move, Tom thought to himself -- all rock'n'roll, and
seemingly nothing to show for two years of college education.
Besides, can you really call "Orange Crush" a chemical?  Soft drinks
may contain a lot of additives, but it's not as though they're
manufactured by Dow Chemical.

Just to collect his thoughts together, Tom asked who had written
"Orange Crush" and what album it was on, and Harry told him it
was a song about the defoliant Agent Orange used in Vietnam, from
the REM album, "Green".

Okay, okay, Tom thought.  Maybe Orange Crush was made by
Dow Chemical after all.

Move 4:  "Greens" in 8

After a little thought, Tom played "Greens" in 8 with an air of
triumph, claiming seven points: two, because "Green" connects as a
color with both "Orange" and "Purple", another because the
"Greens" as a political party would be opoposed to destruction of
forest ecologies, and thus to Orange Crush as a defoliant, another
for the connection between "Greens" and the album, Green, one for
the Irish St. Patrick's day Green contrasting with the Orange of the
Orangemen in Northern Ireland, and another with "Civil War" at 4
because that's what the conflict between Orange and Green in
Ireland boils down to, and one more for the color connection
between Green and the Grays and Blues of the American Civil War.
A little scholarship, a little creativity -- this was going to be a
walkover.

Move 5:  "Purple Heart" in 5

If Tom wanted a military Game, Harry would oblige him.  He
played "Purple Heart" in position 5, claiming two links, one (Purple
to Purple) with "Purple Haze" at 5, and one to "Green" at 8, because
Green Berets often won Purple Hearts.

Move 6:  "Altered States" in 2

Tom figured he had Harry on the run, and could afford a little
subtlety in his next move.  He played "Altered States" in 2 for three
points, one because "Purple Haze" (at 3) is a drug, one with
"Orange Crush" at 1 because REM stands for rapid-eye-movement,
i.e. dreaming, which is an altered state (he toyed with the idea of
claiming it also stands for random excess memory, which comes to
the same thing if you think about it), and one (he was very proud of
this) with "Civil War" at 4 because the Civil War had to do with the
secession of the South, which had to do with altering the States...

Move 7:  "Apocalypse Now" in 9

This was the point where Harry moved decisively onto Tom's turf
to rout him.  He played "Apocalypse Now" in position 9, claiming
six points: one because it was a film, like "Altered States", one
because it's set in the Vietnam War, which was a "Civil War" as far
as the Vietnamese were concerned, two because it involves a
psychedelic drug episode (connecting to both "Purple Haze and
"Altered States"), and another because there's a fogger-flare on the
river at one point in the movie, which the Sam Bottoms character
actually calls "purple haze" -- and a sixth and last point because
Kurtz, the character played by Brando in the movie, is a Green Beret
colonel -- and for all Harry knew, he'd probably won a Purple Heart
or two into the bargain.

Move 8:  "Hearts of Darkness" in 7

Tom, who loved the movie as it happens, and revered Coppola, was
surprised and a little irritated at the way Harry had scooped him on
his own territory, and played "Hearts of Darkness" in the 7th
position, claiming three points, one because it was the name of the
documentary about the making of "Apocalypse Now", one because
the name was based on Joseph Conrad's short novel, Heart of
Darkness, which also provided the original idea for "Apocalypse
Now", though both these facts would probably be new to Harry --
and a last point for the connection (Heart to Hearts) with "Purple
Heart" at 5.

Tom felt confident that Harry couldn't do much with either of the
two positions (6 and 10) that were left -- he could hardly imagine
himself scoring more than two points from either one of them, and
with the score now running 13-11 in his favor, he was pretty sure
he could at least match anything Tom came up with.

Move 9:  "Glory" in 6

Harry went in for the kill, playing "Glory" in 6th place, claiming
seven points!

One with "Civil War" at 4, because "Glory" figures in both the
opening line ("Mine eyes have seen the glory") and the chorus
(Glory, glory, hallelujah!) of the Battle Hymn of the Republic,
which was written as a Civil War anthem.  Another because it was
the Union flag's nickname -- "Old Glory" -- during the "Civil War".
Two more because "Glory" is the name of a film (link with "Altered
States" at 2) about black and white "Civil War" soldiers (yet another
link with 4).  Yet another because "Tunes of Glory," an old Alec
Guinness flick he once snoozed through on cable, was about the
"civil war" between two Scottish colonels during peacetime (another
link with 4).  One "because you can certainly call glory an altered
state" (link with 2) -- Tom had to admit that Harry was beginning to
show signs of real thought here: maybe his college education was
brushing off on him after all.  And finally, "because you could say
that glory figured in what Willard's commanders called Col. Kurtz's
'temptation to play God' in Apocalypse Now (link with 9)."

Tom felt the last link was stretching things a bit, and began to
complain.  But Harry reminded him that his own "altering the
States" link was quite questionable, too, and Tom decided to let
things rest.

Seven points, Harry had just claimed.  Leaving him with 5 points to
make up just to break even, and six if he still hoped to win.  Tom
frankly didn't see how he could do it...

Move 10:  "The End" in 10

...and then he had a brainwave.  The Game, after all, was only a
game, and winning or losing wasn't really so very important in the
Bigger Scheme of Things.  He'd play "The End" in position 10, and
claim three points -- one (with "Apocalypse Now" at 6) because the
Doors song of that name was featured in the movie, one (also with
6) because "The End Times" was what the word "Apocalypse" was
all about, anyway -- and the last one (with "Glory" at 9) because in
The End Times, Christ is supposed to return "in clouds of glory"...

I may have lost the damn Game, he thought to himself, but playing
"The End" as my final move is a hell of a neat way to wrap things
up.

"That's it," he tapped into his computer.  "The End.  Finis."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Comments?  Questions?



--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Sat Feb 17 15:39:30 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: WaterBird Board
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:39:30 -0800


This e-mail version of the WaterBird board -- designed for me by the
philosopher Allan Stairs -- will give you an idea of how the WB board
works.  You should print out this diagram using Courier or some other
monospace (typewriter) typefont, in a font size that is small enough that
positions 1, 8, 9 and 10 are in a single straight line.

                                4
                              * |**
                            *   | ***
                          *     |  ****
                        *       |   *****
                      *         |    ******
                    *           |     *******
                  *             |      ********
                2---------------|---------------6
              * | **            |        *******| *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
  *             |             **|************  *|             *
1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10
  *             |             **|************  *|             *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
              * | **            |        *******| *
                3---------------|---------------7
                  *             |      ********
                    *           |     *******
                      *         |    ******
                        *       |   *****
                          *     |  ****
                            *   | ***
                              * |**
                                5

If you wish, you can draw this same diagram on a regular sheet of paper,
making the ten numbered "circles" large enough that you can write a small
amount of text (eg: #3, "Mountains") inside each of them, drawing the
connecting lines with a rule, and shading in the "wings" and "swallowtail"
of the board in colors to suit your taste...   Note that not only the lines
of the outer squares and central cross, but *also* the lines outlining the
wings and tail (2-8, 2-9, 4-9, 4-6, 3-8, 3-9, 5-9, 5-7) are all linking
lines on the board.

This board can also be conveniently downloaded from:

>>> http://www.telepath.com/gail/deca/apoc01.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Sat Feb 17 15:39:39 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Responding to Miles
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:39:39 -0800


Miles writes:

> I would love to be a part of the next session... So lets get to it?

Great.  Would you like to play a "regular" Game, Miles, with a partner, in
which the pair of you each make five moves, alternating, for a total of
ten?  I say "regular" to distinguish this kind of meditative / aesthetic
Game from the Dream Game we are also working towards, which is more
strictly therapeutic in intent.  Or would you like to wait for the Dream
Game itself, which I envision will have room for participation from anyone
on the list, whether they've already played a "regular" Game on the list or
not?

*

Each of the boards I use fundamentally consists of circles in which moves
are made ("positions"), and lines between the circles linking them
("links").  If for instance you are familiar with the diagram of the
Sephirotic Tree in Kabbalah, the fundamental geometry of the ten sephiroth
("positions") and twenty two connecting lines ("links") can be used as a
Game board, and I call this particular board the "TenStones board", and
games played on it TenStones Games.

The board I'd like to use for these Games, incidentally, is my WaterBird
board, which also has ten positions.  I'm posting it concurrenly with this
post.

> do I understand that part of the thing is to sort of imagine yourself
> actually *on* the board and to make the next move in light of the
> moves/pieces/symbols/words that you could actually *see* from
> where you are?

A given move gains beauty / force / interest from its associations with
other moves which have already been played *in those positions which are
linked to it* along the lines of the Game board.

So no, you don't have to imagine yourself onto the board -- but yes,
imagining yourself there would be a fascinating way to play...  The point
is to come up with a move that has the largest number of interesting
ripples, echoes, parallels, oppositions, harmonies, dissonances, with the
moves which connect to it directly along the lines of the board.

*

> My perspective on the practical issues, is that at least for the first
> couple of games or so, having it in-list so to speak wouldn't hurt
> too much. You may find it helps the life of this group.

I agree.  I think we have enough interest here already to run one or two
"regular" Games and a Dream Game, and that confining our Games to list
members will help create cohesion on the list.

I wouldn't mind being able to invite a few friends to subscribe while the
Games are in play, to watch how they go -- people who have played before on
other lists, friends of mine, etc -- and maybe some of them would like to
stay on when it's all over...  But I think the actual players in these
Games should probably come from the ranks of our existing subscribers.

Any comments?  Anyone wanting to play a "regular Game"?

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Sat Feb 17 15:39:48 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Meditations for Game Players
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:39:48 -0800


To counterbalance the "contest" emphasis of the Apocalypse Now sample Game,
I thought prospective players might also be interested to read these
"Meditations for Game Players", which emphasize the aesthetic /
contemplative aspects of the Game.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Meditations for Game Players


i

=46irst, I ask you to consider the rhyme of "womb" with "tomb" --
which has the delicious property that these two words describe, if
you will, the two chambers from which we enter this life and
through which we leave it.  Not only do the two words rhyme on
the ear, in other words, they can also be said to rhyme in meaning.

Meditation: if you were wearing headphones, and these two words
were spoken, what would the stereophony of their meanings be?


ii

Next, I would invite you to consider visual rhymes -- known as
"graphic matches" in film studies.  Take, for instance, lipstick and
bullet.  To rephrase the opening of a book I am still working on:

     The conjunction comes from a Yardley's cosmetic
     advertisement of a few years back: a woman model
     wearing a leather bandolier with a variety of lipsticks in
     place of bullets.  It is a powerful image partly because it
     plays on the visual similarity of bullets and lipsticks, each
     in their own metal jacket.  Indeed, the visual match
     between them is astonishing -- and the lurking Freudian
     visual pun only adds to our delight.

     The juxtaposition of lipstick and bullet I take to be an
     example of a certain kind of visual logic, a visual kinship.
     Transposing their relationship from visual to verbal
     terms, one might say that lipstick and bullet "rhyme."

But there is more than the purely visual here too... There is also a
meaning rhyme that echoes in Freud's pairing of Eros and Thanatos,
in Wagner's Liebestod, in Woody Allen, and in the opening
sentence of Bedier's Tristan and Iseult:

     My Lords, if you would hear a high tale of love and
     death...

Meditation: what is the stereophany (by analogy with epiphany,
theophany -- neologism intended) of the meanings of lipstick and
bullet?


iii

Consider next musical rhymes -- fugal treatment of a theme -- and if
you have the means, play yourself Bach's Chromatic Fantasia and
=46ugue, BWV 903, or Passacaglia and Fugue, BWV 582...


iv

Next I would ask you to consider -- briefly -- rhymes between ideas
themselves...

Ponder, for instance, the twin themes of the myth of Narcissus, and
the rhyme that exists between the idea of "echo" and that of
"reflection"...


v

Consider rhymes between things, between names and the things
they name (onomatopoeia), and between ideas and names and things
and musical themes and images:

     Seen together, aerial maps of river estuaries and road
     systems, feathers, fern leaves, branching blood vessels,
     nerve ganglia, electron micrographs of crystals and the
     tree-like patterns of electrical discharge-figures are
     connected, although they are vastly different in place,
     origin, and scale.  Their similarity of form is by no
     means accidental.

             G Kepes, *New Landscapes of Art & Science*

     When the surf echoes and crashes out to the horizon, its
     whorls repeat in similar ratios inside our flesh=8A  We are
     extremely complicated, but our bloods and hormones are
     fundamentally seawater and volcanic ash, congealed and
     refined.  Our skin shares its chemistry with the maple leaf
     and moth wing.  The currents our bodies regulate share a
     molecular flow with raw sun.  Nerves and flashes of
     lightning are related events woven into nature at different
     levels.

             Grossinger, *Planet Medicine*

The links of association that are possible between one thing and
another are extraordinary, and rhymes of the sort we have been
discussing are just the beginning...

On being asked:

     "What is the intersection of fish and flames?"

my list-colleague Barbara Weitbrecht responded:

     "Fish being cooked ... flame-colored fish ... fish flickering
      through sunlit water like flames ... things to do with water:
      one in it, one antagonistic to it ... fish and flames both
      images of sleep, of subconscious ideas surfacing, of
      revelation ... fish and flames both images of the Deity ...."


vi

Consider all things as the calligraphy of a god or gods...


vii

Consider, finally, the stereophany between these two elegant
paragraphs, one written by the contemporary American poet and
naturalist, Annie Dillard, and the other by her compatriot Haniel
Long:

     My friend Jens Jensen, who is an ornithologist, tells me
     that when he was a boy in Denmark he caught a big carp
     embedded in which, across the spinal vertebrae, were the
     talons of an osprey.  Apparently years before, the fish
     hawk had dived for its prey, but had misjudged its size.
     The carp was too heavy for it to lift up out of the water,
     and so after a struggle the bird of prey was pulled under
     and drowned.  The fish then lived as best it could with
     the great bird clamped to it, till time disintegrated the
     carcass, and freed it, all but the bony structure of the
     talon.

             Haniel Long, *Letter to Saint Augustine*

And:

     And once, says Ernest Seton Thompson--once, a man
     shot an eagle out of the sky.  He examined the eagle and
     found the dry skull of a weasel fixed by the jaws to his
     throat.  The supposition is that the eagle had pounced on
     the weasel and the weasel swiveled and bit as instinct
     taught him, tooth to neck, and nearly won.  I would like
     to have seen that eagle from the air a few weeks or
     months before he was shot: was the whole weasel still
     attached to his feathered throat, a fur pendant?  Or did the
     eagle eat what he could reach, gutting the living weasel
     with his talons before his breast, bending his beak,
     cleaning the beautiful airborne bones?

             Annie Dillard, *Teaching a Stone to Talk*

*

These are the rhymings of the ten thousand things.  It is with such
meditations as these that we may build the "hundred-gated cathedral
of Mind" to which Hesse refers...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
All rights reserved, copyright =A9 Charles Cameron, 1994, 95. <grin>


--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Feb 18 22:24:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: How to unsub
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:24:05 GMT

On Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:16:39 +1000, contact@odyssey.com.au wrote:

> 
> unsubscribe
> 


Here is the information you need, thanks for your interest.

Walter 


== To Unsubscribe from the List  ==

Send a message to:
listserv@link.southern.co.nz  


Write nothing in the text except:


unsub PSYBER-L

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Feb 18 23:07:02 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: Re: PLG:Tama's Dreams!!
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 10:07:02 GMT

Hi all, 

I am responding to a post from you Tama re your dreams.  A
strange and worrying thing happened -- this post did not arrive
at my planet account as usual -- but I noticed it in the data
base on the listserver -- and am replying to it after I copied it
etc.   I have enclosed it below in full -- but did others get it?
I think my laptop might be playing up.


Tama, and all

Thanks for sharing the dreams.  The Gigantic Glass Sphere
followed by the Harrassment in Video Shop -- if you will allow me
to name them.  They are both powerful dreams and I hope you are
OK with us using them in a -- game -- (should that turn out to be
the course of events)  though no ordinary game this is -- I
expect we will have the utmost respect for you, and your psyche.
Perhaps they are already dreams that include somthing of the
group's unconscious processes anyway  --  they have references to
some of the themes here.  

Whatever dreams are not used I guess we can honour with
discussion in the non-PLG afterwards -- 

We are at the collection of dreams phase Charles mentioned --
goes on till Tuesday -- then we discuss the dreams in 2 & 3.  I
hope it is OK for some minimal discussion such as this in the
meantime.  I will leave other comments that may occur to me
untill we enter phase 2 -- the selection of the dream to work
with.  But mainly  we will discuss the dream we select in phase
3, which starts on the Weekend.


Do I have all that right Charles?


Walter 




Here is Tama's message in full.  Note that this is Tamas message
-- whatever it might look like in your files.

> From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
> Originally to: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
> Original Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 13:05:33 +1300 (NZDT)
> 
> Hi there,
> 
>   There was silence & I really wanted to speak but everytime I had to go,
> so now I'm gonna provide you with some of my dreams!! + later on Tim
> Leary's thoughts on the glass bead game +
> 
>   Well Tama's Dreams started again early last wk-proba has something to do
> with sleeping in and being just on the verge of consciouness.
>   The first dream was infact a continuation of a dream a vaguely remember
> having a while ago.Well the dream was me a Teacher and a high school class
> going to visit a gigatic Glass round sphere inside that had a base of
> water,  inside this huge glass globe people flew gliders,  in my last dream
> I had done so-flying high doing loops not quite knowing how to get back to
> the landing base inside a alcove in the glass-being guided back by a guy
> with a microphone an emergancy remore control unit in case of out of
> control flying.Well this time it was different a girl from school got peer
> presured into flying,  I went to watch,  she was flying amazingly looping
> but then she just lost control,  and flew crashing through the glass,  that
> was a horrifying feelinfg of dread,  I ran with the instructor through
> doors, I said "call an ambulance" he talked to some people said"I have some
> chemistry people to help out"-bizarre-then we found the plane mabled up the
> cockpit was gonna be opened skip next dream.They go on like a series.
>   Next I was in a video music shop with my mother found a video I was
> looking for all the pesidents men,  + a star wars music cd,  I was looking
> through some cds and a couple of guys were talking,  I listened in as I
> sometimes do,  and one said what are you staring at you Fag!! I said shut
> up I've been Sexually Harrased before I got a kid kicked out of school
> once-I get you in trouble if you dont leave me alone.I felt inpowered and
> carageous but later he came up to me and repeatedly kneed me in the
> groin.Well at school some guys once hassled me and called me fag and really
> oissed me off,  kinda victimizing me-but its not the fag bit it's the
> eviolence and hatred that goes along with it.
> then in went on to some action bit where I was on the run from bad guys and
> I was involved in a shoot out-of course I was shhotting them to bits with a
> laser.
>  Mums here again so I will have to write about Tim leary & the Glass bead
> Game later...
> sorry its all a bit diusjointed-well have to go Bye.
> 
> 
>                              __________________
>                              *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
>                              19 Haywood st, Mornington
>                                          Dunedin,
>                                          New Zealand
>                                 *P:(03)4554627*
>                              *E-MAIL address:-*
>                       *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Feb 18 23:29:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: PLG: Games on Psyber-L
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 10:29:17 GMT


On Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:37:43 -0800, Charles Cameron
<hipbone@earthlink.net> wrote:



Charles,

Just to let you know that I am willing to do as you have asked me
to do.

> 4
> 
> We would, I think, begin to see "clusters of associations" and
> "mini-threads" developing, and Walter (from the psychotherapeutic angle)
> and I (from the "game design" side) -- with the Dreamer's help -- could
> then begin to sort them (phase four) into "key words" on the board.
> 
> 5
> 
> I'd suggest that Walter then "edit" the materials into 2 or 3 paragraph
> explanations of the final "moves" and "links" (phase five) -- and again,
> I'd be happy to help with this...

This sort of synthesising I quite like.


> >>> http://www.telepath.com/gail/deca/apoc01.html


Am having no luck with this url at this moment -- it connects to
the site but then does not answer.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From yorkbay@wn.planet.gen.nz Sun Feb 18 23:57:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Responding to Miles
From: The Thompson family <yorkbay@wn.planet.gen.nz>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 96 22:57 NZDT


Ok this is a kinda quick note, though there is lotsa quotes...

Charles Cameron wrote:
>Great.  Would you like to play a "regular" Game, Miles, with a partner, in
>which the pair of you each make five moves, alternating, for a total of
>ten? 
Personally I would be real keen to start off with a regular one or two 
player game, and just keep an eye on the dream game for a while... I read 
about the scoring thing, but think I'm more of a no-scoring type of dude, so 
I'll play for beauty even if I'm being scored... :)


>The board I'd like to use for these Games, incidentally, is my WaterBird
>board, which also has ten positions.  I'm posting it concurrenly with this
>post.
Funny you should say that since I was just about to say that the WaterBird 
looks like my fave. Great name too. So yeah, thats where I want to go.


>> My perspective on the practical issues, is that at least for the first
>> couple of games or so, having it in-list so to speak wouldn't hurt
>> too much. You may find it helps the life of this group.
>I agree.  I think we have enough interest here already to run one or two
>"regular" Games and a Dream Game, and that confining our Games to list
>members will help create cohesion on the list.
I guess as we get more "regular" one on one games going, we can take them 
off list, and just have updates like you did the other day...

>I wouldn't mind being able to invite a few friends to subscribe while the
>Games are in play, to watch how they go -- people who have played beforeon
>other lists, friends of mine, etc -- and maybe some of them would like to
>stay on when it's all over...  But I think the actual players in these
>Games should probably come from the ranks of our existing subscribers.

>Any comments?  Anyone wanting to play a "regular Game"?
Yeah. me. So.... um, 
Could we have three minutes of silence while we contemplate whether anyone 
wants to say anything? 
Ok....
...
...
...
No-one? Ok then, How about I make the first move :}
I hope this doesn't usurp due and proper purpose, but it seems to me that 
its kinda like the list exists as a suffuciently solid and asynchronous 
document that confusion *unlikely* to result. So Yo! any partners for a very 
exploratory, but well researched game on a waterboard, feel free to respond. 
Please check to see if anyone else has already had a reply. If a couple do 
at the same time then, well hey, we can go three-way! If they both move at 
the same location, then I will take full responsibility and resign, or you 
can sue me. Is that a good idea?
Nnrrrrrhhhhh! NO! That actually strikes me as a BAD idea, so I'll wait for 
someone to say, "OK move (creep)" and then I'll move, in reply or as a 
starting move - if anyone is interested. In the mean time I'll think about 
it. So bye. and thanks and y'know - I just hope you're all having a great 
old time doing whatever it is that you are doing...
  
Miles





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Feb 19 02:21:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Psyber-L description
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:21:59 GMT

Stephen,

> My own thought, again, is to use a broad(er) brush to paint the conception
> of Psyber-L.

Thanks for the thoughts --_much_ appreciated, I am reflecting a
lot on all of this.  I have just been reading an interview of
Steve Jobs in wired -- on design he says some great things --
about really taking time to see hoe things work, to grok the
thing -- I think that is what we are doing here . . . 

> Psyber-net Mailing list will also be the entry point for various
> experiments, games, groupwork, study groups, and ensemble playing, all of
> which in some way concern the wide-ranging concerns which arise from
> considering the Psyche, individuation, eros, soul, spirit, myth, dreams,
> metaphor and symbol (etc.,) as they are enjoined by the medium of the
> internet.

I like this notion.  And it is true!  It is what is happening --
so you are really advocating an open standard -- not just an
entry point for Psybernet Small Groups but for all soulful cyber
stuff.  Yep.  



> >The list is an important part of the larger Psybernet project
> >which includes Psybernet Small Groups.  These are professionally
> >facilitated psychological email groups, for which there is a fee
> >for membership.  Announcements about Psybernet groups will be
> >made in this list.
> >
> >The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman, no censorship or
> >editing has taken place, however discussion of how the list is
> >facilitated is integral to its purpose. Psyber-L is archived, see
> >the WWW pages for details.
> >
> [snip]
> 
> I'm groping for my own purposes, Walter! Looking to help keep this place
> alive by giving it a unique and compelling purpose that you can only find
> here and help it serve as a practical doorway to your own extensions...
> 
> and perhaps mine too.

And perhaps _many_ others too!  Why not.  I'll let this all
simmer away.

One possibility is. . .  that it might be better for me to focus
right down into one tiny niche -- Psybernet Small Groups -- these
are what I want to do -- and don't quite get there.  

As I watch what is happening elsewhere, it makes me realise that
facilitation is _quite_ an art & a skill and a _big_ commitment
---- that it is rarely well done on the net -- there must be a
way of doing these groups and also training people to lead others
-- in their work etc.   


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Mon Feb 19 04:56:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Responding to Miles
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 10:56:46 -0500


>
>To:The Thompson family <yorkbay@wn.planet.gen.nz>
>From:hoon@apk.net (Stephen Calhoun)
>Subject:Re: PLG: Responding to Miles
>
>>Ok this is a kinda quick note, though there is lotsa quotes...
>
Miles, good to see you return to our 'action' here. Hope all is well or at
least interesting.
>
>>player game, and just keep an eye on the dream game for a while... I read
>>about the scoring thing, but think I'm more of a no-scoring type of dude, so
>>I'll play for beauty even if I'm being scored... :)
>
My feelings too; let God keep the score.
>
>>>Any comments?  Anyone wanting to play a "regular Game"?
>>Yeah. me. So.... um,
>>Could we have three minutes of silence while we contemplate whether anyone
>>wants to say anything?
>>Ok....
>>...
>>...
>>...
>>No-one? Ok then, How about I make the first move :}
>
Charles: sample game posts are helpful but we get the idea! So, if you will
think about next starting up the regular games, Miles and I and whoever
else would like to join -right?- are seemingly ready.
>
In fact...an initial move will follow because I've been feeling out
something recently and my heart says...
>
MOVE ONE...

and screw the toss.


(Just kidding...about dispensing with the toss. Otherwise ready to begin
'music of ideas'.)
>
>
Best and better to all,

Stephen


"The tragedy of life is not that it ends so soon, but that we wait so long
to begin it."   - Unknown






From hoon@apk.net Mon Feb 19 06:26:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama talks about Claire-SHES BACK!!
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 12:26:37 -0500



Tama: I hope you'll not mind my response to (yet another) earthy and rich
post of yours.

How do you feel about sixty-plus persons learning of your fortunes? I'm not
sure those person(s) will be interested in my response, but,

that said, first a wee bit of parsing:


up rush
crazy ocean
wave beautiful
girl like
prayer using
small life
heaps taking
love work
complicated sweet
ring full
coming back

[snip]

It's kinda funny-theres so many kinds of love-I dont know if I should
>catagorize mine-but-it's not sexual attraction-shes pretty but

Famous last (or first!) words: "she's pretty but..."

This may (seem to) invalidate your frank revelation, but, Tama, if I,
Stephen, were in your, Tama's, shoes, I would like to take this pretty Miss
Claire and spend some time exploring with her, with her consent of course,
just what is not sexual attraction and just what is.

;-)

>-I really
>care for her and seek to be cared for back-maybe I'm too needy for her-if

I construe this admission as a fundamental recognition of what it is to be
a human being. Join the club.

>she can't handle something as simple & beautiful as a hug-she has on 2
>occasions and it sent me high as a kite-I know that I could only love her
>if I knew that she could commit herself to a relationship-she does not
>want to be burdened down-but I dont wont to suffocate her,  or experiment-I
>have been there-I just want a strong friend who is there for me-and whom I
>can cuddle up to,  and feel JOY.Is it too much to ask I just "I just Wanna
>soul mate to catch the next drift.."Alanis Morriset.

This is *beautiful* revelation in the deepest sense of the word. This is a
lifetime's work too, IMO.

The Jungian perspective is, in part, that one is in involved in a
progressive process of mating with the inner soul mate through the trials
and tribulations of trying to hook up with the outer soul mate(s) who are
not singular over the course of a life but multiple; stepping stones out of
which we build the Love bridge.

This is not very comforting! (I'm glad I didn't know it when I was younger,
like, when I was younger, say, 37 years of age and getting divorced from my
soul mate; would have spoiled the awful fun.)

That said, Tama, I feel that you love Claire regardless of her ability to
commit to a relationship and therein lies the rub. If our love was simply
contingent, then loving people would be easy enough.

Think about turning off your LOVE FAUCET.

no-can-do

It is our birthright to want to express our capacity for joy with other
person(s): friends, lovers, our selves...

So why does Love kill us? What is that 'death' about? Is it not a paradox
that our frustrated wanting (for strong friends, cuddling, soul mates,
joy,) is exactly the process through which our love's experience and
robustness is strengthened?

(Ask us oldsters!) Claire may not fully appreciate your friendship,
(however she is doing the best that she is able to, darn,) but in your
giving of your self and those deep wantings, desires, and your admission of
your feelings to her and her witnessing: you are bringing her among the
deepest gifts anyone at any age can bring to another. All one can do is
bring gifts, one's treasure...and see what happens. Be there for it to
happen or, damn, not.

Feel how it is that a person can build a life out of love's persistence.
Meanwhile, Tama, you have just begun your LOVE JOURNEY (may God will it to
be a deep one,) so, of the waves that will hit you over your journey's
course, Shakespeare has spoken (hopefully helpfully,) of many of them:


        A woman's face, with Nature's own hand painted,
        Hast thou, the master-mistress of my passion;
        A woman's gentle heart, but not acquainted
        With shifting change, as is false women's fashion;
        An eye more bright than theirs, less false in rolling,
        Gilding the object whereupon it gazeth;
        A man in hue all `hues' in his controlling,
        Which steals men's eyes, and women's souls amazeth.
        And for a woman wert thou first created;
        Till Nature, as she wrought thee, fell a-doting,
        And by addition me of thee defeated,
        By adding one thing to my purpose nothing.
        But since she prick'd thee out for women's pleasure,
        Mine be thy love, and thy love's use their treasure.



>
>Wa wa WAIL!! To Scream at the top of my lungs I am Tama-take me into your
>Arms I want to be with you!!
>
>Comments anyone?


End of lecture. Love is my favorite *drift* to do be do be do. So, I've
indulged my pretensions here. :-)

Tama, your shoes seem to be a wonderful place to be (in), screams and all.

Highest regards to you, Stephen

"Love is like quicksand--the deeper you fall in, the harder it is to get out."
        - unknown






From yorkbay@wn.planet.gen.nz Mon Feb 19 14:15:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psyber-L description
From: The Thompson family <yorkbay@wn.planet.gen.nz>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 96 13:15 NZDT


>To: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>
>From: yorkbay@wn.planet.gen.nz (The Thompson family)
>Subject: Re: Psyber-L description
>
>
>>As I watch what is happening elsewhere, it makes me realise that
>>facilitation is _quite_ an art & a skill and a _big_ commitment
>>---- that it is rarely well done on the net -- there must be a
>>way of doing these groups and also training people to lead others
>>-- in their work etc.   
>
>How very true! I just want to congratulate you on the hard work you have 
put in to making the "tremenos" of this place so exciting and at the same 
time welcoming. Thanks! Its also a place where once people come they want to 
stay (or return as quick as possible like me). And I think that also is a 
compliment to your ability. So often (I would agree) facilitators fail to 
recognise the big commitment and responsibility - but then I doubt that many 
would have the skills to do a job such as this anyway. If the commitment and 
hard work is worth it in the end is a decision that obviously you will have 
to make, but I appreciate it in the mean time. 
>
>Art complicated by the fact that not only do you have to learn it without 
the benefit of previous mentors, but that it is changing (ever changing) by 
a greater degree than with real life groups (perhaps) because the meaning of 
the group concept *here* is so unknown and so unexplored. 
>





From hipbone@earthlink.net Tue Feb 20 06:31:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Let the Games Begin
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 09:31:46 -0800


Excellent!

Stephen has accepted my invitation to play a "regular" Game with me on the
WaterBird Board, and Tama and Miles have each expressed their wish to play,
so we appear to have two WaterBird Games ready to begin.  Let's do it.

*

In the Game of Stephen & Charles:

Stephen writes:

> In fact...an initial move will follow because I've been feeling out
> something recently and my heart says...

> MOVE ONE...

Sounds good to me, Stephen.  Why don't you make the first move in our Game,
and I'll respond.

*

In the Game of Tama and Miles:

Tama writes:

> I would like to play!!  Although I have to print the material out and
> have a better look at it.  I could come into a lab just about
> everyday or every 2nd

and Miles:

> I'll wait for someone to say, "OK move (creep)" and then I'll
> move, in reply or as a starting move

It seems as though Miles should go first here, to give Tama a little extra
time in which to download and read the materials.

So I'll say it, Miles: "OK move!"...

Responding moves should follow roughly every two days, and be posted to the
List *and* your Game partner.

*

Regarding the Dream Game:

We also have two possible dreams for exploration in a Dream Game from Tama
("The Gigantic Glass Sphere" and "The Harrassment in Video Shop"), and a
couple more days in which to offer up dreams, if anyone else is
interested...

Starting on Wednesday, as Walter says, we'll begin to discuss which dream
or dreams we want to work with.

Walter writes:

> Just to let you know that I am willing to do as you have asked me
> to do.

thus graciously accepting the role of "Guide" in this Game...

*

Walter -- did you get the WaterBird board in its ASCII format?

All set?  Let's go...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Tue Feb 20 06:34:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PlG:Responding to Miles
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:34:31 +0100


Hello this is Tama,

Cool to hear that your re-wired back to the net!!
I would like to play!!
Although I have to print the material out and have a better look at it.
I could come into a lab just about everyday or every 2nd-I am painting
fences-weather permitted,  but I should still be able to manage it.I hope
you are well & happy and are doing what you want in Wellington.Me I'm gonna
be back for 2nd yr uni studing Theatre Studies,  English,  Film Studies and
half a Year of Japanese.

OK-Bye...


                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                  Custom-Sized Screen Realities;  TURN ON
                                   Just say "Know"               TUNE IN


BOOT UP

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                                              "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                                       "Do be do be do" -Sinatra
"






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Feb 20 11:38:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Psyber-L description
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 22:38:05 GMT


I am replying to a message from The Thompson family
<yorkbay@wn.planet.gen.nz> written on Mon, 19 Feb 96 13:15 NZDT.

Dear Miles,

Thanks for the congratulatory words -- and your trust in this
space.  

 >Art complicated by the fact that not only do you have to learn
it without 
> the benefit of previous mentors, but that it is changing (ever changing) by 
> a greater degree than with real life groups (perhaps) because the meaning of 
> the group concept *here* is so unknown and so unexplored. 

Yes -- I am really fascinated by the invisibility of this group.
We say all sorts of things about the group -- but we really have
no idea -- makes me think that this may be just as much a
phenomena in a RL group as here.  After all we cant see the body
language here -- but we cant see the email there!  

It is the hidden that allows us to see our selves as we project
into the void.  Groups as a mirror.  We  have said all this
before . . . 

It is one of those things though that we are learning here about
cyberspace groups -- I would like to think that our grasp of
these things is firming up, and hence can be used and taught --
so that there is better quality in lists etc.

Walter 



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Feb 20 13:06:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: PLG: Let the Games Begin
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 00:06:46 GMT


I am replying to a message from Charles Cameron
<hipbone@earthlink.net> written on Mon, 19 Feb 1996 09:31:46
-0800.

Dear Charles and all,


> 
> Excellent!
> 
> Stephen has accepted my invitation to play a "regular" Game with me on the
> WaterBird Board, and Tama and Miles have each expressed their wish to play,
> so we appear to have two WaterBird Games ready to begin.

Great!  I managed to get onto the WWW site -- and got the gif of
the Waterbird board -- looks good!  I have one on my desk for
each of the games -- please don't take them off list -- this is a
spectator sport!  (Sky???  -- sorry New Zealand in joke) 

> Regarding the Dream Game:
> 
> We also have two possible dreams for exploration in a Dream Game from Tama
> ("The Gigantic Glass Sphere" and "The Harrassment in Video Shop"), and a
> couple more days in which to offer up dreams, if anyone else is
> interested...

Yes it is still Tuesday here -- well go with the us time and see
if there are more dreams.

> Walter -- did you get the WaterBird board in its ASCII format?

yep, both formats now -- thanks.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From yorkbay@wn.planet.gen.nz Tue Feb 20 13:35:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Let the Games Begin (Sorry everyone)
From: The Thompson family <yorkbay@wn.planet.gen.nz>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 12:35 NZDT


Um... Whoops

>Stephen has accepted my invitation to play a "regular" Game with me on the
>WaterBird Board, and Tama and Miles have each expressed their wish to 
>play, so we appear to have two WaterBird Games ready to begin.  Let's do >it.

Oh No!!! I just found out that I have to go to Christchurch, on Wednesday 
(today is tuesday) and sp I will be without email abilities for at least a 
couple of weeks. Can you believe it! Sorry! zSorry.
I will have to let Tama find another partner. So yeah, Sorry everyone!!
Nice to hear from all of you again,
Bye
Miles

PS I'll be back before you know it.





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Tue Feb 20 17:14:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG:Tama dream 3
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:14:01 +1300 (NZDT)


Hello I had some interesting ones this morning.

My first one had me at home just doing my thing,  telling mum that I had a
dream that her ex partner(for 11 yrs from when it was just me & mum till I
was five to 16)(who had an affair & left & who mum never wants to see
again) had come around and was knocking at the door.Lo and behold I heard a
knocking at the door-oh oh-Its dark-the windows are misted I open up the
dood-my God De Ja Veu-He is with one of mums friends & her to kids-the boy
runs in and says where the computer-I ignore him-mum comes sees her friend
& Bruce she shouts how dare you how could you bring him here.He comes in &
starts leafing through mums work book.She takes it away from him & says
leave that alone its personal.That's about all I remember.The guy in
question is now living in Germany and has a pertner who is pregnant + he is
studying at uni.When him and mum got together she aws 12 yrs older he was
20 at the time.It had quite a effect on me sometimes I resented him being a
only child and that he was not old enough to be a father just a older
brother.

Ok hope these help in some way.



                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"










From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Tue Feb 20 17:14:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG:Tama dream 4
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 17:14:12 +1300 (NZDT)


Heres another one

There was also another fragment of dream only 1 vivid bit that I can
remember,  I was with a woman-quite beutiful long dark black hair and she
refered to something-she wanted to see my birthmarks-but hey this is
strange I dont have any? But the thing is I have had a skin disorder called
Psoraisis since a was 5 and still have it on stomach back and spots around
the body-it is to do with the body rapidly creating to many skin cells,  it
looks like pink skin + there are bit off new silvery skin that fall off.So
it is a liitel embarasing and is a bit of a stigmata-it's in interesting
patterns too.But anyway  I was lieing down in this womans lap and she
pulled up my shirt to have a look and I had a very weird feeling-I dont
know-she didint shreik out in terror or horrer she just curiously looked
not out of digust but interest and traced my skin with her fingers against
the soft skin and the different psoraisi.I dont think I felt inadequate.I
have had feeling of embarsment when going to the beach and pool.It was
strange kinda really full oon intense like she found it interesting and
different and could accept me for it.The girl in Nelson who I slept with in
Nelson did not seem to mind.. Oh well just thought I would post it anyway.


                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"










From hoon@apk.net Tue Feb 20 18:55:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Games on Psyber-L
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 00:55:29 -0500


Waterbird board - Regular Game

February 20, 1996 : 12:56am est

***

MOVE ONE
^^^^^^^^

In position three:

"No, no, it is the three strange angels
Admit them, Admit them."


***


                                4
                              * |**
                            *   | ***
                          *     |  ****
                        *       |   *****
                      *         |    ******
                    *           |     *******
                  *             |      ********
                2---------------|---------------6
              * | **            |        *******| *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
  *             |             **|************  *|             *
1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10
  *             |             **|************  *|             *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
              * | **            |        *******| *
"No, no, it is the three strange angels
                3---------------|---------------7
           Admit them, Admit them."
                  *             |      ********
                    *           |     *******
                      *         |    ******
                        *       |   *****
                          *     |  ****
                            *   | ***
                              * |**
                                5



***

Thank you; your move, God willing.


Respectfully,

Stephen

***







From hipbone@earthlink.net Wed Feb 21 08:38:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: SC & CC: Move 2
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:38:22 -0800


Waterbird board - Regular Game

Charles plays MOVE TWO in position two:

"a peculiar people"


                                4
                              * |**
                            *   | ***
                          *     |  ****
                        *       |   *****
                      *         |    ******
                    *           |     *******
                  *             |      ********
                2---------------|---------------6
        a peculiar people       |        *******| *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
  *             |             **|************  *|             *
1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10
  *             |             **|************  *|             *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
       three strange angels     |        *******| *
                3---------------|---------------7
                  *             |      ********
                    *           |     *******
                      *         |    ******
                        *       |   *****
                          *     |  ****
                            *   | ***
                              * |**
                                5

The phrase comes from I Peter 2: 9:

::  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,
::  a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him
::  who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

I have to admit that I don't know Stephen's "three strange angels" quote --
assuming it *is* a quote -- so my response in this move is based entirely
on the words of his quote itself, and not in any way on its context.
Strange angels, peculiar people: the link is a simple one, with a whiff of
holiness to each, since angels, like my peculiar people, figure in the
Bible.

But it is with self-irony that I post this move, since for me this verse
from I Peter -- originally referring to the people of Israel in their new
"incarnation" as the followers of Christ -- came at one point in my own
existence to describe...

the "hippies"...

or "heads", as we preferred to be called at that point.  A "generation"
indeed, a "priesthood" in that our life was sacramental (largely courtesy
of the psychoactive agents which we consumed), a "nation" in the sense that
one may speak of Woodstock Nation, and above all, the most *peculiar*
people you could meet on a ramble through the wasteland of the twentieth
century / enchanted forests of our dreams...

That's it...


--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Wed Feb 21 16:57:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Walter I got the giff
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 16:57:10 +1300 (NZDT)


heyt there,

Th egiff came through as a message though and I'm not quite sure hgow to
convert it from it's garbled form.Normally attachments should end up in my
attachments folder,  maybe it has something to do with you sending it from
a p.c and me getting from a mac.I dont really know at this point but I'll
ask my friend who sent me a sound message from his mac.

Well I painted 4 hours fence today and are going to a BBQ tonight with
Japenese girls and all the homestay families-should be fun!!
There is gonna be a bit of partying this weekend there are some good bands
+ a big out doors laser light dance party if the weather is fine.Should be
fun.Anyway must go,  things to do places to go.
Sinara friends!!8)


                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"










From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Feb 23 00:17:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: PLG:Tama dream 4
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:17:25 GMT


Walter replying to a message from "Tama.Neill"
<tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz> written on Tue, 20 Feb 1996
17:14:12 +1300 (NZDT).

Dear Tama and all

Both these two dreams I am sure are important ones and it looks
as if yours are the only candidate dreams for the game.  

I'd go with the Gigantic Sphere for the game -- somehow a glass
sphere relates to the glass bead game and I want to honour that
thematic link -- I'd be interested in hearing what you think Tama
and others -- perhaps there are other compelling matters to look
into . . . 


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hipbone@earthlink.net Fri Feb 23 07:19:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Dream Game
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 10:19:10 -0800


Hi there Tama, Walter and all:

Tama, I'm inclined to agree with Walter: let's go with the "Gigantic
Sphere" dream as the basis for a Dream Game, if that's okay with you?

*

Assuming it is, I'd like to begin by asking you to tell me the dozen or so
words which mean the most to you in the dream as you've posted it: the
words that jump out at you like key words.

::  Well Tama's Dreams started again early last wk-proba has
::  something to do with sleeping in and being just on the verge of
::  consciouness.

::  The first dream was infact a continuation of a dream a vaguely
::  remember having a while ago.Well the dream was me a Teacher
::  and a high school class going to visit a gigatic Glass round sphere
::  inside that had a base of water,  inside this huge glass globe
::  people flew gliders,  in my last dream I had done so-flying high
::  doing loops not quite knowing how to get back to the landing
::  base inside a alcove in the glass-being guided back by a guy with
::  a microphone an emergancy remore control unit in case of out of
::  control flying.Well this time it was different a girl from school got
::  peer presured into flying,  I went to watch,  she was flying
::  amazingly looping but then she just lost control,  and flew
::  crashing through the glass,  that was a horrifying feelinfg of
::  dread,  I ran with the instructor through doors, I said "call an
::  ambulance" he talked to some people said"I have some chemistry
::  people to help out"-bizarre-then we found the plane mabled up the
::  cockpit was gonna be opened

::  skip next dream.They go on like a series.

For my own sake, I'd like to know, for instance, what *else* is conjured up
for you by that word "gigantic", and to hear what your response is to
Walter connecting the "glass sphere" with our "glass bead game"...

I think you should also continue sending us dreams if you feel like it,
particularly any new ones in the same series as the two you mention above.
And since "flying" and "out of control" crop up in both dreams, anything
else that links with either one of those two ideas...

Anyone else who feels like exploring the motifs of that particular dream
with Tama is welcome to do so, and it might be interesting for Tama, Walter
and the rest of us to begin to look at what "major themes" the dream might
be handling -- if we were playing on the Tetraktys Board with its three
"themes" at the corners (ie God, Nature and Anima in the sample Game I
posted), what would the three themes of this dream be?

I'm waiting until we're further into this process, incidentally, before
suggesting which particular board we should use in this Game -- we may need
to develop a new one, or play in two stages, first on a "free form" board
and then on one of the regular ones...

And Walter -- if this dream suggests any questions about personal issues
(rather than archetypal / symbolic stuff), I think you as "Guide" should be
the one to raise the questions for Tama to ponder: the rest of us can work
away at the "universal" symbolism involved...

*

Tama: I have the sense that this Dream Game will be keeping you busy, and
that playing a "regular" Game at the same time would only distract you...
Is that okay with you?

I seem to remember Judith expressing an interest in playing, and there may
be more lurkers who are waiting to see how the thing works before
signalling their interest in Games...  Anyone else want to give the Games a
try at this point?

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hoon@apk.net Fri Feb 23 08:07:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: move one amplified
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 14:07:16 -0500


To all,

Now that Charles has moved, I will amplify my move with the full poem from
which it was been excerpted.


>I have to admit that I don't know Stephen's "three strange angels" quote --
>assuming it *is* a quote -- so my response in this move is based entirely
>on the words of his quote itself, and not in any way on its context.
>Strange angels, peculiar people: the link is a simple one, with a whiff of
>holiness to each, since angels, like my peculiar people, figure in the
>Bible.

>Waterbird board - Regular Game
>
>February 20, 1996 : 12:56am est
>
>***
>
>MOVE ONE
>^^^^^^^^
>
>In position three:
>
>"No, no, it is the three strange angels
>Admit them, Admit them."
>
>
>***


Not I, not I, but the wind that blows through me!
A fine wind is blowing the new direction of Time,
If only I let it bear me, carry me, if only it carry me!...

If only I am keen and hard like the sheer tip of a wedge
Driven by invisible blows,
The rock will split, we shall come at the wonder, we
shall find the Hesperides,

What is the knocking?
What is the knocking at the door in the night?
It is somebody who wants to do us harm.

No, no, it is the three angels.
Admit them, admit them.

(D.H.Lawrence: "Song of a Man Who Has Come Through")









From hoon@apk.net Fri Feb 23 20:11:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: move 3
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:11:45 -0500




--============_-1387166899==_============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Walter: attached UUencoded data .jpg 14k: sword.jpg

***

Charles,

An image is my next step here.

***

Waterbird board - Regular Game

February 23, 1996 : 12:05am est

MOVE THREE
^^^^^^^^^^

In position eight:

a picture of a [sword]

Core memory: argueing with my brother long distance after (my) returning
from an encounter with an itinerant shaman:

Tim: Jesus carries a sword!
Steve: He does not!

***

(1) please note: the board for this game is available at:

http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html

I have sent a mime/UU encoded JPG file to the list...will it recirculate?

Otherewise the image is available on the web at the above URL.

(2) My own 'thinking' and/or intuition as it applies to my own moves is
forthcoming as time should ripen it.


>
>
>                                4
>                              * |**
>                            *   | ***
>                          *     |  ****
>                        *       |   *****
>                      *         |    ******
>                    *           |     *******
>                  *             |      ********
>                2---------------|---------------6
>              * | **            |        *******| *
>            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
>          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
>        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
>      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
>    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
>  *             |             [sword]********  *|             *
>1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10
>  *             |             **|************  *|             *
>    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
>      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
>        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
>          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
>            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
>              * | **            |        *******| *
>"No, no, it is the three strange angels
>                3---------------|---------------7
>           Admit them, Admit them."
>                  *             |      ********
>                    *           |     *******
>                      *         |    ******
>                        *       |   *****
>                          *     |  ****
>                            *   | ***
>                              * |**
>                                5
>
>
>
>***
>
>Thank you; your move, God willing.
>
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Stephen
>
>***



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--============_-1387166899==_============--





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Feb 24 10:26:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: PLG: move 3
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 21:26:33 GMT


Walter replying to a message from Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
written on Fri, 23 Feb 1996 02:11:45 -0500.

Dear Steve and all


> Walter: attached UUencoded data .jpg 14k: sword.jpg

I got it fine, my reader will uncode it straight from the menu.
What a thrill to do this via email -- getting an image like that.
I am sure everyone will have got it this way as I am set up as an
ordinary user on my laptop. 
 
> ***
> Core memory: argueing with my brother long distance after (my) returning
> from an encounter with an itinerant shaman:
> 
> Tim: Jesus carries a sword!
> Steve: He does not!

This certainly becomes  psychological game once we introduce core
memories and experiences as you and Charles are doing.  I am
thinking how profound this whole process of "association" is --
think of the use Freud and Jung have made of it -- one of the
main "discoveries" that they did more or less independently I
think.  

> (2) My own 'thinking' and/or intuition as it applies to my own moves is
> forthcoming as time should ripen it.

I am fascinated how you do that . . . trusting your intuitive
move and making it and letting the ripples unfold.  

I am strongly conscious of the "board" and "rules" I use in the
group work I do.  I have been trained to use a structure called
the "focal conflict model"  -- I'll dig up a description of it
from my half finished thesis.

Are we allowed to be an active audience? one that comments away
from the side lines?  Asks questions?  I'll give it a go . . . 

I was delighted to read about Charles' hippy days -- we are both
of that _generation_ & I immediately saw a link with the poem
when it arrived -- -- as in "blowing in the wind", and "times
they are a changing".  I have associations just rolling on . . . 

Suspense  awaiting the next moves and mail!



Walter 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Feb 24 10:26:38 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: Groups & Games
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 21:26:38 GMT

Hi all,

What follows is a short exerpt from my thesis (in progress)
"Identifying the Protagonist in a Group",

******

Focal Conflict Model.
Whitaker and Lieberman (1970) developed a model of group process
known as the Focal Conflict Model. (See Fig. 2.)  Group process
is seen as a series of conflicts made up of a disturbing motive
and a reactive fear.  A focal conflict is an accurate reflection
of the group if all the events of the group can be seen as either
an expression of the disturbing motive or the reactive fear or as
an attempt at a solution to the conflict.  A focal conflict
continues in the group until it is resolved, then a new focal
conflict emerges.



Fig. 2.	Diagrammatic representation of the Focal Conflict Model

Disturbing Motive             X            Reactive Fear



Solutions:

Enabling or Restrictive.

Successful or Unsuccessful



(The symbol "x" is used, following Whitaker and Lieberman, to
denote "opposed by" or "in conflict with".)


******

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Feb 24 23:24:58 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: Behind the times?
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 10:24:58 GMT

Hi all,

Time and cohesiveness in email groups.

One of the things I may be caught up in is to use the new
technology for an old medium.  It has come up in Psybernet before
-- _repackaging_ I think the thread was called.  All the new
technology has suffered from it -- cars were seen as horseless
carriages  -- TV as film, or radio with pictures.  

Have we ( or maybe just me?) made the shift into the medium when
I think of groups that have a _fixed_ duration like the proposed
H&N?  Certainly the proposed two weeks per chapter was not a
workable structure in _Aion_ . . . 

Even here in psyber-L the plans to have certain thing happen on
certain days in the game, is difficult to maintain (am I right
there?)  

Email is asynchronous -- that is its beauty, its strength, and
the very thing that makes it different from a conference (notice
I removed that word from the Psybernet _List_ description.)  We
are not in a virtual conference -- we are in a mode of group that
where time is structured radically differently from in the f2f
groups that I have had my basic group work training in.

Membership is also affected by this . . . I belong to a list
called Group Psychotherapy -- I have been getting the mail for
months, but it was only today that I read it and found something
of interest and joined in.  What sort of membership is that?  Not
like any I can transpose from my f2f world.

Surfing is not a bad word for what happens even in these groups
-- there are waves -- they have a moment of peak energy where
synchronicity is at its peak, and then there is the slow entropy
where we are all at a different place.  

My attempts to _structure_ this with definite closed memberships
for fixed periods has not been all that successful, is that
because I am ahead or behind the times -- or is it just a
question of marketing?

Walter  





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Sun Feb 25 03:26:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Groups & Games
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 09:26:10 -0500


Walter,

Could you connect up the focal conflict idea with your identifying the
'leading actor', protagonist?

Reading this took me back to recollecting some of the group experiences
I've had. Also: I wondered just what is a group...again.

OTOH, there is somewhat of the echo of a tautology in the focal conflict idea:

>A focal conflict is an accurate reflection
>of the group if all the events of the group can be seen as either
>an expression of the disturbing motive or the reactive fear or as
>an attempt at a solution to the conflict.

...which is to say: "a focal conflict is an accurate reflection...(of) an
attempt at a solution of the conflict."

***

Is the dichotomy you spelled out extensive (in) this way?

restrict motive, enable fear
enable motive, restrict fear
enable motive, enable fear
restrict motive, restrict fear

***

Leaping to neutralize (the connotations of) conflict as any kind of
perturbation instead of loading it up as a negative 'disturbation', takes
us to the difference that makes a difference thesis.

(I add this because the connotations of conflict are problematic excepting
'healthy conflict'. Not many people are compelled toward conflict in a
given situation because often flight precedes the qualification of the
conflict; i.e. we may run from conflicts whether they are healthy or not.)

***

Walter, how do you view this model with respect to the sustenance of
*heat*? Do not some groups become very keen on resolving conflicts and miss
the kind of higher level (for example,) synthesizing of the 'material'
because conflict resolution has taken precedence over more fruitful
'battling'? ;-)

Then there are the groups (among many types,) for which the disturbation
does not follow the contours of a focal conflict type of dynamic; where the
energetic synthesis maintains heat, and, for which, what is enabled is
*courage* (or fearlessness,) but not as the prescriptive for fear...but as
a birthright.

A very hot group to be in when the opportunity presents itself.

Stephen




     "Clever people master life; the wise illuminate it and create fresh
     difficulties."

                                Emil Nolde









From hoon@apk.net Sun Feb 25 03:27:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: move 3
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 09:27:21 -0500


Walter, everybody,

>What a thrill to do this via email -- getting an image like that.
>I am sure everyone will have got it this way as I am set up as an
>ordinary user on my laptop.

Someday I hope we'll be able to imbed images and audio, (smells?) into
email. My idea of a field day!

>
>thinking how profound this whole process of "association" is --
>think of the use Freud and Jung have made of it -- one of the
>main "discoveries" that they did more or less independently I
>think.

Did not Freud and Jung rediscover more than discover?

I myself favor the idea that the imaginal and the unconscious has been
brought back into the light after being 'held down'. Freud and Jung and the
concept of a depth psychology is a corrective to the one-sidedness of a
purely positivist empiricism, blah blah blah! ;-)  "words are my friends,
ho ho ho!" (I'm thinkin')

The idea that meaning is robust is an old one: for how long have children
looked up into the sky and drawn out the beings, animals, etc. from out of
the shapes of the clouds...for example?

>I am fascinated how you do that . . . trusting your intuitive
>move and making it and letting the ripples unfold.

funnin' as much as possible...

>I was delighted to read about Charles' hippy days -- we are both
>of that _generation_ & I immediately saw a link with the poem
>when it arrived -- -- as in "blowing in the wind", and "times
>they are a changing".  I have associations just rolling on . . .

almost got my pony tail back after, what, eight years? %-)


Stephen






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Feb 25 13:21:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Groups & Games
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 00:21:01 GMT


Walter replying to a message from Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
written on Sat, 24 Feb 1996 09:26:10 -0500.

Steve,

> Could you connect up the focal conflict idea with your identifying the
> 'leading actor', protagonist?

The idea is that even when the focus is on one group member for
some time -- this is "group therapy" if that person is the
protagonist.  This would be the case if their personal "internal"
dynamics have the same pattern as those of the group.   Often the
protagonist is not (say) the most angry or most scared person in
the group but someone who has a bit of both.  You can see how the
work they do would be of interest to those on the extreme.

> Reading this took me back to recollecting some of the group experiences
> I've had. Also: I wondered just what is a group...again.

Yes, especially _here_!

> OTOH, there is somewhat of the echo of a tautology in the focal conflict idea:
> 
> >A focal conflict is an accurate reflection
> >of the group if all the events of the group can be seen as either
> >an expression of the disturbing motive or the reactive fear or as
> >an attempt at a solution to the conflict.

Hmmm . . . I must have put it badly.  Let me use more
hypothetical examples.  If the opening comment by A is "why is
John always late", the second comment by B is "I have got used to
that now, that is just how he is", a third comment C is:  "I have
a situation in my family would like to get some help with from
the group". . . . 

Fairly typical stuff -- you see how they can be seen as moves in
the game!  As the group leader I am trying to relate these simple
surface statements to an underlying theme or "conflict". . .  in
some ways making the fourth move that links the other moves. My
move "counts" if it can interpret the other moves as expression
of disturbing motive, reactive fear, or as some form of
resolution to the 'conflict'.  There would be many possibilities,
yet when named there is often a general consensus that the theme
or conflict is identified.  

> 
> Is the dichotomy you spelled out extensive (in) this way?
> 
> restrict motive, enable fear
> enable motive, restrict fear
> enable motive, enable fear
> restrict motive, restrict fear

That sound possible . . . I think of the disturbing motive as the
psyche wanting something to surface from the depths -- and the
ego not wanting that trouble in its life.  I guess the more the
psyche is held down the more hidden power it has . . .the more
fear.  Solutions do overcome the fear -- there is an amazing
sense of freedom in the group once one of the themes it has
grappled with is resolved.

> Leaping to neutralize (the connotations of) conflict as any kind of
> perturbation instead of loading it up as a negative 'disturbation', takes
> us to the difference that makes a difference thesis.
> 
> (I add this because the connotations of conflict are problematic excepting
> 'healthy conflict'. Not many people are compelled toward conflict in a
> given situation because often flight precedes the qualification of the
> conflict; i.e. we may run from conflicts whether they are healthy or not.)

As you can see I am not thinking of conflict in this sense of
conflict in the group -- (although that may be there -- it may
even be an attempted solution, a restrictive one, at an
unconscious level, ie lets fight, to avoid the disturbing motive,
of say, "I need love".)  --  I think of conflict as being what
Marxists call contradictions -- opposite forces.  Just as marxist
do we can look for the primary contradiction.

> Walter, how do you view this model with respect to the sustenance of
> *heat*? 

Heat is important . . . heat is energy . . . a key concept in
psychodrama is "warm-up" . . . nothing much happens unless there
is a warm-up.   In my hypothetical group above, where John is
late, I might ask C if there is a similarity between the
situation in the group at this moment, and the situation in
his/her family.  That might simply add to the warm-up, and lead
to a clearer expression of the contradiction of forces at play.

> Do not some groups become very keen on resolving conflicts and miss
> the kind of higher level (for example,) synthesizing of the 'material'
> because conflict resolution has taken precedence over more fruitful
> 'battling'? ;-)

Exactly, so even though I use the word conflict -- I think the
model does lead to the more fruitful material . . .  I would call
it deeper, not higher  !!!

> Then there are the groups (among many types,) for which the disturbation
> does not follow the contours of a focal conflict type of dynamic; where the
> energetic synthesis maintains heat, and, for which, what is enabled is
> *courage* (or fearlessness,) but not as the prescriptive for fear...but as
> a birthright.
> 
> A very hot group to be in when the opportunity presents itself.

Yes -- I can see that the relationship between forces or themes
may not be "conflict".  I wonder how the various associations
Charles has given us in the rules -- might be more helpful?  I
cant find them just now -- did I see them on the web?  Hmmm . .
.  in the end I think wed usually find there was some sort of
thematic contradiction of energy.  A binary aspect to life -- or
a binary aspect to our perception?


>      "Clever people master life; the wise illuminate it and create fresh
>      difficulties."
> 
>                                 Emil Nolde

Yes, and using the focal conflict model I do get a sense of
moving on to the fresh difficulties . . . for example as the
conflict of "to trust or not to trust the group process" is
resolved by an enabling solution such as "give it a go, but be
prepared for the consequences" then we move onto fresh
difficulties.

Walter 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hipbone@earthlink.net Mon Feb 26 08:08:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG Move 4
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:08:10 -0800


Well, I've got plenty to think about now...

First, my thanks to Stephen Calhoun for unwittingly reminding me of a word
that has been on the tip of my tongue for some time now -- the
semi-technical term used to describe the associations that Jungians draw
from a dream.  I'd wanted to use it in describing the moves and links in
the Dream Game, but found I couldn't recall it -- until Stephen's post
entitled "PLG: move one amplified" reminded me that the word they use is
"amplification".

Then, too, I need to thank Stephen for the D.H.Lawrence poem -- "Song of a
Man Who Has Come Through" -- which I should have recognized.

In his third move in our Game, Stephen describes an argument with his brother:

> Tim: Jesus carries a sword!
> Steve: He does not!

For what it's worth, there's a passage at the very end of Luke's account of
the Last Supper, in which Jesus instructs his followers "he that hath no
sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one (Lk 22: 36), and the disciples
say to him, "Lord, behold, here are two swords" -- and he replies "It is
enough" (v 38)...  Then in v 50-51, one of the disciples cuts off the right
ear of the high priest's servant, and Christ says to them "Suffer ye thus
far" -- and heals it.  That's about the closest I've been able to come to a
"literal" description of Jesus carrying a sword, although there's also the
(presumably) metaphorical statement "I came not to send peace, but a sword"
(Matt 10: 34).

But what is Steve up to in this move of his?  He writes:

> My own 'thinking' and/or intuition as it applies to my own moves
> is forthcoming as time should ripen it.

Like Walter, I am fascinated by this business:

> trusting your intuitive move and making it and letting the ripples
> unfold.

It makes for a much more free-form Game than I am accustomed to playing,
but I feel I should follow suit and play along in the same spirit...

*

< Move 4 >

In position 1, I place the opening of Rilke's Duino Elegies:

Rilke was taking a walk along the top of the cliffs at the foot of Castle
Duino, where he was a guest at the time, during a storm.  He was absorbed
in his thoughts about an unpleasant business letter he had just received,
when a voice -- as if out of the storm -- spoke these words to him:

::  Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels
::  hierarchies?

He wrote them hurriedly in his notebook, and they went on to become the
opening lines of his greatest poetic work, the Duino Elegies.

                                4
                              * |**
                            *   | ***
                          *     |  ****
                        *       |   *****
                      *         |    ******
                    *           |     *******
        peculiar people         |      ********
                2---------------|---------------6
              * | **            |        *******| *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
who... would    |           ****|*******      **|           *
hear me?        |             [sword]********  *|             *
1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10
  *             |             **|************  *|             *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
      three strange angels      |        *******| *
                3---------------|---------------7
                  *             |      ********
                    *           |     *******
                      *         |    ******
                        *       |   *****
                          *     |  ****
                            *   | ***
                              * |**
                                5

Rilke's angels are not the "sweet and sappy" angels of sentimental
Christmas cards, they are terrifying, numinous beings like the cherubim who
guards the gates of paradise with a flaming sword "which turned every way"
(Genesis 3: 24).  Rilke continues:

::                and even if one of them pressed me
::  suddenly against his heart: I would be consumed
::  in that overwhelming existence.  For beauty is nothing
::  but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure,
::  and we are so awed because it serenely disdains
::  to annihilate us.  Every angel is terrifying.

There, it seems to me, is the essence of the angelic "strangeness", and the
angelic sword (at 4): there is a barrier, and a perilous one at that, which
separates our mundane and workaday lives and thoughts from the invisible
realms...

< end of Move 4 >

*

In a post in the "Groups and Games" thread, Stephen wrote:

> Do not some groups become very keen on resolving conflicts and
> miss the kind of higher level (for example,) synthesizing of the
> 'material' because conflict resolution has taken precedence over
> more fruitful 'battling'? ;-)

This too seems to tie in with the them of Jesus's remark about coming to
send "not peace, but a sword"...

And in Walter's comment in the same thread:

> I think of the disturbing motive as the psyche wanting something
> to surface from the depths -- and the ego not wanting that trouble
> in its life.

the psyche's wish for something to surface from the depths is indeed
*trouble* -- and I think we're back at my "barrier" separating the mundane
from the invisible worlds...

*

More than enough for one post, I think...

Stephen, I look forward to your next move (and any insights you may have
about your last one).

And Walter:

> Are we allowed to be an active audience? one that comments away
> from the side lines?  Asks questions?

Yes, of course.  I hope all list mmbers will feel free to comment and
kibbitz while our Game is in motion.  And your "blowing in the wind"
comment would have made a fine move, Walter...

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hoon@apk.net Mon Feb 26 17:48:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG Move 4
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:48:51 -0500


Charles and gang,

>Well, I've got plenty to think about now...

As do I; although thinking really doesn't do it justice! ;-)

I ask for patience because my next move is unlikely to erupt until the
middle of the week.

[snip]

>It makes for a much more free-form Game than I am accustomed to playing,
>but I feel I should follow suit and play along in the same spirit...

Following suit is okay until the trump card is played.

Move 4---

>::  Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels
>::  hierarchies?
>
>
>Rilke's angels are not the "sweet and sappy" angels of sentimental
>Christmas cards, they are terrifying, numinous beings like the cherubim who
>guards the gates of paradise with a flaming sword "which turned every way"
>(Genesis 3: 24).  Rilke continues:
>
>::                and even if one of them pressed me
>::  suddenly against his heart: I would be consumed
>::  in that overwhelming existence.  For beauty is nothing
>::  but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure,
>::  and we are so awed because it serenely disdains
>::  to annihilate us.  Every angel is terrifying.
>
>There, it seems to me, is the essence of the angelic "strangeness", and the
>angelic sword (at 4): there is a barrier, and a perilous one at that, which
>separates our mundane and workaday lives and thoughts from the invisible
>realms...
>
>< end of Move 4 >
>
>*

Charles, I have taken the liberty to condense your move for purposes of its
representation on the web page
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html
as the last sentence of your move.

***

Just who are these angels anyway?

***

>This too seems to tie in with the them of Jesus's remark about coming to
>send "not peace, but a sword"...
>
>And in Walter's comment in the same thread:
>
>> I think of the disturbing motive as the psyche wanting something
>> to surface from the depths -- and the ego not wanting that trouble
>> in its life.
>
>the psyche's wish for something to surface from the depths is indeed
>*trouble* -- and I think we're back at my "barrier" separating the mundane
>from the invisible worlds...
>

Yet, the ego is a fine swordsman; maybe the finest. How else could one
learn such a skill?

***

The sweetest spot is under the rib cage. With enough torque the sword,
especially if the inferior hand leverages the butt of the handle, will
glide in a nice figure "S" separating the diaphragm while in the same
thrust it disunites stomach, lungs and heart.

With practice the blade will carry itself quite nicely through the channel
of the breast bone.

The hard part is to start moving the sword up and back toward one so as not
to catch the tip on the clavicle.

***

Best and better to all,

Stephen

***

The PLG web site has been updated with this move and commentary.

http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html










From hipbone@earthlink.net Mon Feb 26 20:15:04 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG Move 4
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 23:15:04 -0800


For the record, on his web page at:

>http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html

Stephen has placed my Move 4 not in position 1. where I originally intended
it to go, but in position 5 at the bottom of the board, which I think is a
better place for it -- given that any link between my move and the
"peculiar people" at position 2 was a bit strained, while the links with
"strange angels" in position 3 and the "sword" in position 8 are, I trust,
more viable.

So let it be: my Move 4 is now in position 5, leaving position 1 open...

*

While we're on the topic, I should perhaps make it clear that the wind that
was blowing that day at Schloss Duino -- which can in some sense be seen as
the exterior "voice" synchronistically corresponding to Rilke's inner
"voice" crying out to his angels -- was the Bora, one of the famous
"maddening" winds, so that the link between Move 4 and those "strange
angels" in position 1 is not only between angels and angels, but also
between wind and wind...

*

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Feb 27 00:11:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: PLG Move 4
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 11:11:49 GMT


Walter replying to a message from Charles Cameron
<hipbone@earthlink.net> written on Sun, 25 Feb 1996 11:08:10
-0800.

Dear Charles and all,

> < Move 4 >

> ::  Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels
> ::  hierarchies?

> Rilke's angels are not the "sweet and sappy" angels of sentimental

Interesting . . . never having studies Rilke -- looked up the web


http://www.armory.com/~thrace/ev/siir/Rilke.html


Found more of the poem.


> < end of Move 4 >
> And in Walter's comment in the same thread:
> 
> > I think of the disturbing motive as the psyche wanting something
> > to surface from the depths -- and the ego not wanting that trouble
> > in its life.
> 
> the psyche's wish for something to surface from the depths is indeed
> *trouble* -- and I think we're back at my "barrier" separating the mundane
> from the invisible worlds...

I had a glimpse of your move crossing over to that other thread
-- good to see it acknowledged like this.  And yes -- swords
"separate" -- they have that connotation in the tarot, I also see
the link with words ie (s)words -- they delineate one thing from
another.


Keep at it guys . . . 


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Tue Feb 27 02:25:35 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG Move 4
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 08:25:35 -0500


>For the record, on his web page at:
>
>>http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html
>
>Stephen has placed my Move 4 not in position 1. where I originally intended
>it to go, but in position 5 at the bottom of the board, which I think is a
>better place for it --

Chalk it up to my poor sensation. However, I am sorry. If you feel it is
better there then so be it. I feel embarrassed and lucky. ---As I have for
much of this life. : )

I'd like to link this page to the Glass Bead Game page and the Psyber-L
page and my home page?

Or, shall we keep it totally self-enclosed and private?

***

Walter: Rilke is subtle dry white wine...for the heart! If this game
accomplished nothing more than to send you to his poetrry, it has been
worthwhile. Thanks, Charles.

peace,

Stephen






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Tue Feb 27 16:21:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Explanation!!
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:21:46 +1300 (NZDT)


HI,

Hi Tama -- you started to say something but the fences got you???!!!
well a mix of going out late drinking experimenting and painting fences +
the rush to get enrolled at UNi & now orientation I.e going to lots of N.Z
bands & stuff.So I wont quite be on top of things for a wee while but I
will get some time in the day as the last fence is complete finally,  took
8 hrs yeasterday.

Anyway I'll try & make some time soon, OK?


                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"










From hoon@apk.net Thu Feb 29 13:13:14 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: exp-loring
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 19:13:14 -0500


Folks,

re: PLG waterbird

Haven't brought up move five. Feel as if a lifetime's material has already
been dug up! Am planning a major day trip off the cliffs into further
archangelus...later on tonight. (When I'm sitting here in not so much of a
rush.)

Until such a moment I'll leave you with this thread in the form of a parsing:
---not a poem! ;-[]

***

regarding moves 1->4
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

peculiar angels
out of darkness
ramble through
enchanted dreams
holiness
(like the
hespirides)
shall find
the night

no, no!
a sword
should ripen
I cried
(I would be)
consumed

nothing ---
serenely
terrifying
there seems:
essence,
strangeness,
(the invisible)


Stephen






From hoon@apk.net Fri Mar 01 03:03:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: notes on sword play
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:03:06 -0500


Greetings!

***

Regarding PLG: Waterbird Game

Notes on sword play:



Eye:      See the target first before thrusting with the sword.

          Look for your target as an eagle or tiger searching for

          its prey. While practicing swordsmanship, your hand

          must move to any target you see; you must focus your

          attention on the target, simultaneously turning your

          body and moving your hands and feet as if they were

          lights; shining to all directions, or the sun and moon

          in the blue sky, casing light everywhere on the earth.


Body:     Be agile as a swimming dragon or a phoenix.

          Be soft as cotton; be strong as steel. The essence of

          sword playing is to move a sword in a "bird flying

          manner." Hence, the movement of your body must be from

          motionlessness to motion - i.e., it seems motionless

          but actually is in motion. It moves sometimes as slow

          as a swimming dragon or as fast as a flying phoenix;

          soft as cotton or strong as steel. There is no definite

          pattern for any movement of your body. You suddenly

          move with your sword as your mind dictates to another


Mind:     Your mind is the commander of your body.

          Understanding the secrecies of sword play comes with

          experience.

"The Sword is part of my hand, my hand is part of my body. No one can kill
me when my sword is my hand. No one can defeat me when my skill is my spirit
Look for the deadly soul but not the weapons I carry. Look for the hunger
strike for it will tears down the wall."


***

Stephen






From hoon@apk.net Fri Mar 01 03:04:48 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: strange angels
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:04:48 -0500


re: PLG: Waterbird game

I found a reference similar to the weaving (of the virtual music, yes?)
working on:

# Strange angels - singing just for me

# Old Stories - they're haunting me

# Big changes are coming

# Here they come

[Anderson; exact reference not available]


The "singing just for me" resonates. Something here concerns life changing
moments and angelic presence as the invisible sign of impending change.
Too: the change can be so dramatic and 'overhaul' the individual so
radically one might imagine it as if a sword has been put to the person.

Stephen






From hoon@apk.net Fri Mar 01 03:08:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Hesperides
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:08:16 -0500


Re: PLG: Waterbird game

For those following the waterbird game, I'd like to give you some
information about the Hesperides which will help relate it to the enigmatic
particle of parsing:

>holiness
>(like the
>hesperides)
>shall find
>the night

***

The eleventh labor of Hercules was to fetch the golden apples of the
Hesperides. This led Hercules to go on a quest which led him to
(eventually) ask of the Hesperides' father, Atlas, where the apples might
be found. The apples were under the protection of his three, (or four
depending on how the source,) daughters and a sleepless dragon and were to
be found in a garden which, in the entirety of Greek mythology, is the most
similar to the Christian idea of Paradise.

Accounts differ as to how Hercules completed the labor. One account states
Atlas acted as Hercules's surrogate and does not go into detail about how
it was that Atlas went into the garden and got past the hundred-headed
dragon. Of course, he was the father of the Hesperides! By the way, while
Atlas did so, it was Hercules who bore the world upon his shoulders in
place of Atlas. Upon his return Atlas told Hercules he would himself go
give the apples to Eurystheus.

Hercules, in what is always described, oddly, as an act of cunning and, in
our terms, 'thinking on his feet', agreed but asked Atlas to momentarily
relieve him of the world's burden so that he could place a pad upon his
shoulders. Atlas did so and Hercules snatched up the apples. Cha-ching!

The second version has variations but basically requires Hercules to enter
the garden himself, to slay the dragon, and get those apples!

Finally, as it turns out, the apples can only be preserved in the garden,
so it is Minerva who is given the task of returning the apples to the
garden.

***

There is a wonderful strangeness to this labor. It strikes me as the most
peculiar of the twelve labors given version number one. There is also the
resonation with the Christian creation story: gardens and
apples...(right?).

More: the Hesperides are known as the "Daughters of Evening". The tree
which produced the golden apples was a wedding gift given by Ge, (the
personification of 'Earth',) to newlyweds Zeus and Hera.

***

This may not make the parsing less enigmatic. However, I hope the sense is now:

--holiness like the 'daughters of the evening' shall find the night.--

Stephen












From hoon@apk.net Fri Mar 01 03:39:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: sword the logos-cutter
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 09:39:11 -0500


re: PLG: waterbird game

Needless to say: the sword is a powerful and ancient symbol. It is one of
the four suits of the tarot; it is related to the lance which itself is
symbolic of the wounding of Christ and the wounding of the fisher king of
the Grail legend(s); it is Excaliber, symbolizing the completion of the
initial intiation.

The sword represents the idea of the *separatio* and thus also symbolizes
*logos*. Sword is a phallic symbol and as primordial blade and *edge*
symbolizes the cthonic and the beginnings of tool sensibility.

Sheathed, sword may symbolize the union of the 'lingum' and the 'yoni' and
may also be thought in this kind of marriage to represent
logos-in-potential.

Charles mentioned Jesus saying "I came not to send peace, but a sword".

I'll refer to the gnostic gospel of Thomas:

" Jesus said, 'Men think, perhaps that it is peace which I have come to
cast upon the world. They do not know that it is dissension which I have
come to cast upon the earth: fire, sword, and war For there will be five in
a house: three will be against two, and two against three, the father
against the son, and the son against the father. And they will stand
solitary."

Edward Edinger, after quoting this passage, (Anatomy of the Psyche, p191,)
goes on to suggest:

Christ, the self as logos-cutter, comes to dissect or dismember the
participation mystique of the family psyche ("a man's foes will be those of
his own household"). The Gnostic version states explicitly that the goal is
to make the individual, ("they will stand solitary").

Earlier, Edinger quotes the historian Goodenough, who was himself
explaining the principles of the alchemist Philo Judaeus in a reference
concerning the logos-cutter as an expression, paradoxically enough, of
unity.

"In each case the division was not only the separation but a reunion, for
the logos was glue as well as the cutter; that is, it was the principle of
cohesion which makes the universe a unit in spite of its manifold
divisions." (Edinger, p.189)

Also, Edinger points out: "The creation of consciousness requires that new
contents be carved out of the unconscious." (p.191)

Stephen






From hoon@apk.net Fri Mar 01 04:26:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: more sword
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:26:38 -0500


Greetings,

re: PLG: waterbird game

The idea separation and unity somehow pursue each other seems pertinent. It
certain was at the time by late brother and I were shouting over the phone
connection between Vermont and Cleveland, both crazy, both locked in our
positions: Jesus with sword, without! ?

We recoil from the idea of judgement day as a final bit of sword play
discriminating us on the basis of our actions, (being?) and then throwing
us into hellfire, or more gently leading us to other places.

However, the sweetness and light of a unity in which we don't seem matter,
because *all is one* (anyway!) does not ring true: this has always struck
me as a glorious mystique, albeit easier said than done.

Edinger, again from his Anatomy of the Psyche, explains a Gnostic passage
by asserting: " I take this to mean that Christ's Passion purged the human
ego by separating personbal from transpersonal contents,w hich had been
confounded together in an inflated mixture."

He goes on to quote Jung, from Seven Sermons to the Dead: "Our very nature
is distinctiveness." Later, Jung writes: "When, however, we remain true to
our own nature, which is distinctiveness, we distinguish ourselves from the
good and the beautiful, and, therefore, at the same time, from the evil and
the ugly. And thus we fall into the pleroma, into nothingness and
dissolution."

Considering these comments, I find myself becoming ready to bring my orbit
closer to the diffulties of Charles's excerpt from the Duino Elegies.

One more field to romp in before I do so,

and, next, make a move.

Stephen






From hoon@apk.net Fri Mar 01 05:57:07 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Rilke and Angels
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:57:07 -0500


re: PLG: waterbird game

Responses to Charles's move 4.


>In position 1, I place the opening of Rilke's Duino Elegies:
>
>Rilke was taking a walk along the top of the cliffs at the foot of Castle
>Duino, where he was a guest at the time, during a storm.  He was absorbed
>in his thoughts about an unpleasant business letter he had just received,
>when a voice -- as if out of the storm -- spoke these words to him:
>
>::  Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels
>::  hierarchies?

Such a contrast! From worldly worries to wondering this?

>
>
>::                and even if one of them pressed me
>::  suddenly against his heart: I would be consumed
>::  in that overwhelming existence.  For beauty is nothing
>::  but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure,
>::  and we are so awed because it serenely disdains
>::  to annihilate us.  Every angel is terrifying.
>

Only an autodidact like myself playing a game like this will heedlessly
disregard all the writing of brilliance about Rilke's masterwork, to think
about it in cheap terms such as these:

Our is annihilation is assured. Like Icarus, our inflation will do the
trick as will the normal course of unconsciously or consciously lived life.
The pleroma itself expresses an annihilating beauty: think of Volcanoes;
stars being birthed out of the awesome furnaces of fertile nebulae; and
then individuation itself: for which the death of the (now) 'unreliable'
(sword?) gives birth to the newly
capable.

Then there is the aspect of the unconscious; anihilator supreme should we
venture into it less as a martial artist and more as a dabbler or
self-satisfied beginner or a person with a propensity toward identification
with its contents, etc.

>There, it seems to me, is the essence of the angelic "strangeness", and the
>angelic sword (at 4): there is a barrier, and a perilous one at that, which
>separates our mundane and workaday lives and thoughts from the invisible
>realms...

Then Rilke's surety of the angelic terror is a keen act of discrimination.
It makes the angel strange for us captivated by the inflated image of the
angel as a desexed ideally good figuration.

No: the angel's beauty is two-edged.

It's beauty is necessarily disunified and becomes terrible for being
unreachable on the level of unity, (the ideal of a perfected beauty, for
example, unobtainable for man, in the realm of the Gods,) yet somehow
through discrimination, and obviously, by saying so, through greater Eros,
we can partake of this beauty.

Here is the stance of the martial artist: adept, discriminating, centered.
In who's hands the sword poses no peril to the innocent!

Also, I sense how compelling the angel is to the beginner, whereas later
the more experienced student has learned how indeed the sword is
double-edge which is in part a recognition of one's own realistic status.
(This recognition tends to take our 'wings' off.)

By way of closing, I'd like to share the second elegy in a follow/up post.

Stephen






From hoon@apk.net Fri Mar 01 05:57:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Rilke, 2nd elegy
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:57:11 -0500


re: PLG: waterbird game

"Lovers are able, if angels understood them, to speak peculiarly
in the night air."

Lovers; peculiar people indeed!

***


The Duino Elegies -- The Second Elegy

by Rainier Maria Rilke

Each single Angel is terrible. And yet, woe to me!
I call upon you, almost deadly birds of the soul,
knowing about you. Where are the days of Tobias,
when one of the brightest stood on the simple threshhold,
For journey a little disguised and no longer dreadful;
(Young man to young man, as, curious, he peered outside).
Should the archangel, the dangerous one, behind the stars now
step just a little lower and forward: pounding
our own heart would slay us. Who are you?

Early successes, you coddled children of making,
Mountain ranges, morning red-bathed ridges
of all creation, -- pollen of blooming diety,
joints of light, halls, stairways, thrones,
rooms of being, shields of rapture, tumults of
stormy enchanted emotion and suddenly, separate,
mirrors: which draw their own streaming
beauty back into their faces again.

For we, when we feel, evaporate; oh we
breath ourselves out and away; from embers to embers
ever fainter scent we give forth. True, one may say to us,
"yes, you've gone into my blood -- this room, the spring's
filling itself with you . . ." What's the use? He can't keep us,
we vanish into and around him. And they who are beautiful,
oh, who'll hold them back? Incessantly appearance stands
forth in their faces and then departs. As dew on the morning grass
lifts what is ours from us, as the heat from a
hot dish of food. O smile, where to? O gaze:
new, warm, escaping surge of the heart --;
woe to me: we ourselves are that. Does, then, the world space
in which we dissolve ourselves, taste of us? Do the angels
really grasp only what's theirs, what has flowed from them,
or sometimes, as if by mistake, is a little
of our being with it? Are we mixed in with their
features just as much as the vagueness in the faces
of pregnant women? They don't notice in the maelstrom
of their return to themselves. (How should they see it?)

Lovers are able, if angels understood them, to speak peculiarly
in the night air. For it seems that everything's
hiding us. See, the trees exist; the houses,
in which we live are still there. We alone
pass by it all like an airy movement.
And everything unites to silence us, half as
shame, perhaps, and half as inexpressible hope.

Lovers, each fully satisfied in the other,
I ask you about us. You take hold of each other. Can you prove it?
Look, with me it so happens that my hands become aware
of each other, or that my worn
face takes rest in them. That gives me a little
feeling. But who because of that would dare even exist?
You, however, who in rapture take the other
to yourself, until, overwhelmed, he begs
you, "no more"; who under each other's hands
become more abundant like grapes on the vines;
as you sometimes sink, but only because the other
has wholly emerged -- I ask you about us. I know
you touch one another so blissfully, because the caress persists,
because the place which you, enchanted ones, conceal,
does not disappear, because you discover beneath it
pure continuity. So you promise one another eternity, almost,
in your embraces. And, indeed, when you've withstood
the fright of the first glance, the longing at the window,
and the first walk together, once through the garden:
Lovers, are you still the same? When you rise up and
set yourselves on each other's lips, drink to drink:
oh how the drinker strangely escapes from the scene.

Were you not amazed by the caution of human gesture
on ancient Grecian pillars? Weren't love and parting
lightly laid on their shoulders, as if both were made
of different stuff than for us? Think of their hands,
which lightly rest, though power resides in their bodies.
These masters of self knew this: thus far have we come,
it is for us to touch one another like this; more strongly
the gods press against us. But that is the gods' business.
If only we could find a pure, contained, narrow,
human strip of orchard for ourselves in between
stream and stone. For our own heart transcends us
again, always, as theirs did. And we cannot any longer
gaze after it into pictures that soothe it, nor into
divine bodies, in which it is even more greatly restrained.






From hoon@apk.net Fri Mar 01 05:57:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG Move 5
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:57:16 -0500


re: PLG: waterbird game

Prelim to move 5

>And in Walter's comment in the same thread:
>
>> I think of the disturbing motive as the psyche wanting something
>> to surface from the depths -- and the ego not wanting that trouble
>> in its life.
>
>the psyche's wish for something to surface from the depths is indeed
>*trouble* -- and I think we're back at my "barrier" separating the mundane
>from the invisible worlds...

Some sense of paradox in these responses: If the 'invisible world' is said
to be the unconscious then only in making it increasingly visible do we
individuate. In our game we've developed an angel of the depths, haven't
we? Such an angel is terrible, as guardians of the underworld must be.
However, we've turned one conventional schema on its head: in the world of
this game the Angels are not *up* but down and in this way, the beauty
which (may) annihilate one would be the beauty of the invisible realms of
the unconscious, its magnificent mystery, its images, its magic.

To indetify totally with this invisible realm is to cross the barrier into
what then becomes a terrible wholeness, a frightening unity; to participate
unwisely is to identify in this way; at it matters not if one began with a
sword!

Thus, the sword of the adept comes into play. How to go down and not be
drawn hopelessly into the underworld's unity?

(Believe me, it happens. And when it does one shouts just as hopelessly,
"Jesus does not carry a sword!" over the phone lines.)

D.H.Lawrence tells of the difference when an adept uses the sword:

"If only I am keen and hard like the sheer tip of a wedge
Driven by invisible blows,
The rock will split, we shall come at the wonder, we
shall find the Hesperides,"

***

For move 5 I would like to extend the parsing,

peculiar angels
out of darkness
ramble through
enchanted dreams
holiness
(like the
hespirides)
shall find
the night

no, no!
a sword
should ripen
I cried
(I would be)
consumed

nothing ---
serenely
terrifying
there seems:
essence,
strangeness,
(the invisible)

***

I awake: I see
burning shadows


placed in position 9

end of move

***

>
>                                4
>                              * |**
>                            *   | ***
>                          *     |  ****
>                        *       |   *****
>                      *         |    ******
>                    *           |     *******
>        peculiar people         |      ********
>                2---------------|---------------6
>              * | **            |        *******| *
>            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
>          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
>        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
>      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
>     *          |           ****|*******      **|           *
>   *            |             [sword]*******I awake: I see    *
>1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10
>  *             |             **|******    burning shadows,   *
>    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
>      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
>        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
>          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
>            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
>      three strange angels      |        *******| *
>                3---------------|---------------7
>                  *             |      ********
>                    *           |     *******
>                      *         |    ******
>                        *       |   *****
>                          *     |  ****
>                            *   | ***
>                       who...would hear me?
>                                5
>

Your move my friend.

xalam,

Stephen






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Mar 01 15:41:23 1996
To: Aion, Psyber-L
Subject: Announcing some plans . . . 
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 02:41:23 GMT

Hi,

I am in the process (with some sadness) of phasing out the
Psybernet BBS -- this is to consolidate Psybernet on the Internet
-- and to make it more stable as an environment.  

This involves learning to run listserv lists remotely -- and I
have started that by setting up a list called 

GROUP-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM 

It is in the testing and learning stages and I would welcome
users to participate in this learning process -- hence for the
next month or so the list will be used for chat and testing and
learning about listserv lists.  

I intend to use this list for Psybernet Small Groups at some
point after that and will need to kick everyone off again --
(those interested in the Psybernet Small Group would need to
resub.) 

The list is private and subscription requests go to me for
validation.  To subscribe -- please send mail to:

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

with text:

SUB Group-L Your Name

as the body of the message. 

If you are unfamiliar with LISTSERV and its associated commands,
I suggest that you add the commands

INFO GENINTRO
INFO REFCARD

as additional lines of your message.  LISTSERV will then send you
a file containing a General Introduction to Revised LISTSERV that
will give you some instruction on the service and a Quick
Reference Card of the various commands.



Thanks for your interest.  If you have trouble subscribing with
this method, and NOTE, none of this has been tested, please let
me know and I will attempt to help.  

I am cross posting this to several places, however I think
discussion on the changes in Psybernet are best held in the
Psybernet mailing list (ask me for details).

Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sat Mar 02 18:27:43 1996
To: hoon@apk.net
Subject: Re: PLG: sword the logos-cutter
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 05:27:43 GMT


Hi Steve and all,  

On Thu, 29 Feb 1996 hoon@apk.net  wrote:

> re: PLG: waterbird game

> Earlier, Edinger quotes the historian Goodenough, who was himself
> explaining the principles of the alchemist Philo Judaeus in a reference
> concerning the logos-cutter as an expression, paradoxically enough, of
> unity.
> 
> "In each case the division was not only the separation but a reunion, for
> the logos was glue as well as the cutter; that is, it was the principle of
> cohesion which makes the universe a unit in spite of its manifold
> divisions." (Edinger, p.189)

I'm interested in this . . . though it is all getting a bit
obscure . . . everything relates to everything else . . .  apples
to creation, creation to destruction, destruction to swords,
swords to unity, unity to wholeness, wholeness to healing . . .
what ever you like.  

I am not against this . . . sometimes it makes sense to _cut-off_
as many of the associations as possible and focus on the main one
. . . 

Perhaps you are doing that . . . the main one that strikes me
from reading the list of late is the theme of the split between
the conscious and the unconscious -- 

It is inherent in the contrast between the silence and the
spoken, on this list -- what I mean is between the tip if the
iceberg of the posters and the depths unplummeted of the
non-posters.  This is of particular interest as I watch and muse
over the Aion list as well.

I will post some more on this theme. . .  but not under the PLG
banner,

Walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Sat Mar 02 18:27:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: List Leadership
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 05:27:59 GMT


Hi all,

List management, List-owning,  list editing, Moderating &
facilitating, are all different and distinct tasks -- though they
overlap.

In the description of this list there is the phrase:  

>>> Topics include:   The art of leadership in communication networks. <<<

I'd love us to have a good go at that topic . . .  especially
because of how I experience the Aion list -- where I am the
list-owner and list-manager, and a participant.  I am holding
back from _facilitatiing_ as I think there is enough confusion
about my role there.  however . . . even as an _active_
participant I seem to focus on process, and find it difficult to
participate if no-one else attends to a structurally tricky spot
we are in.  

So in a way it is good. . . we have this list with this purpose .
. . and some general discussion of our experience in the roles in
list leadership might be useful.

One thing I have written about here recently is that lists seem
to have their own pattern of waves -- they roll on in their own
way -- however this ebb and flow is not so easy in lists that are
task focussed -- everyone is at a different stage of the task,
and new blood canAt really join in.  

I have mentioned my role in Aion -- I am not suggesting we
particularly focus on that list but look at our experience here!
and in other lists we are involved with.  

Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sat Mar 02 18:27:59 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: List Leadership
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 05:27:59 GMT

Hi all,

List management, List-owning,  list editing, Moderating &
facilitating, are all different and distinct tasks -- though they
overlap.

In the description of this list there is the phrase:  

>>> Topics include:   The art of leadership in communication networks. <<<

I'd love us to have a good go at that topic . . .  especially
because of how I experience the Aion list -- where I am the
list-owner and list-manager, and a participant.  I am holding
back from _facilitatiing_ as I think there is enough confusion
about my role there.  however . . . even as an _active_
participant I seem to focus on process, and find it difficult to
participate if no-one else attends to a structurally tricky spot
we are in.  

So in a way it is good. . . we have this list with this purpose .
. . and some general discussion of our experience in the roles in
list leadership might be useful.

One thing I have written about here recently is that lists seem
to have their own pattern of waves -- they roll on in their own
way -- however this ebb and flow is not so easy in lists that are
task focussed -- everyone is at a different stage of the task,
and new blood cant really join in.  

I have mentioned my role in Aion -- I am not suggesting we
particularly focus on that list but look at our experience here!
and in other lists we are involved with.  

Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sat Mar 02 21:18:55 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: Re: PLG: sword the logos-cutter
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 08:18:55 GMT

Hi Steve and all,  

On Thu, 29 Feb 1996 hoon@apk.net  wrote:

> re: PLG: waterbird game

> Earlier, Edinger quotes the historian Goodenough, who was himself
> explaining the principles of the alchemist Philo Judaeus in a reference
> concerning the logos-cutter as an expression, paradoxically enough, of
> unity.
> 
> "In each case the division was not only the separation but a reunion, for
> the logos was glue as well as the cutter; that is, it was the principle of
> cohesion which makes the universe a unit in spite of its manifold
> divisions." (Edinger, p.189)

I'm interested in this . . . though it is all getting a bit
obscure . . . everything relates to everything else . . .  apples
to creation, creation to destruction, destruction to swords,
swords to unity, unity to wholeness, wholeness to healing . . .
what ever you like.  

I am not against this . . . sometimes it makes sense to _cut-off_
as many of the associations as possible and focus on the main one
. . . 

Perhaps you are doing that . . . the main one that strikes me
from reading the list of late is the theme of the split between
the conscious and the unconscious -- 

It is inherent in the contrast between the silence and the
spoken, on this list -- what I mean is between the tip if the
iceberg of the posters and the depths unplummeted of the
non-posters.  This is of particular interest as I watch and muse
over the Aion list as well.

I will post some more on this theme. . .  but not under the PLG
banner,

Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Sat Mar 02 21:18:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: sword the logos-cutter
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 08:18:55 GMT


Hi Steve and all,  

On Thu, 29 Feb 1996 hoon@apk.net  wrote:

> re: PLG: waterbird game

> Earlier, Edinger quotes the historian Goodenough, who was himself
> explaining the principles of the alchemist Philo Judaeus in a reference
> concerning the logos-cutter as an expression, paradoxically enough, of
> unity.
> 
> "In each case the division was not only the separation but a reunion, for
> the logos was glue as well as the cutter; that is, it was the principle of
> cohesion which makes the universe a unit in spite of its manifold
> divisions." (Edinger, p.189)

I'm interested in this . . . though it is all getting a bit
obscure . . . everything relates to everything else . . .  apples
to creation, creation to destruction, destruction to swords,
swords to unity, unity to wholeness, wholeness to healing . . .
what ever you like.  

I am not against this . . . sometimes it makes sense to _cut-off_
as many of the associations as possible and focus on the main one
. . . 

Perhaps you are doing that . . . the main one that strikes me
from reading the list of late is the theme of the split between
the conscious and the unconscious -- 

It is inherent in the contrast between the silence and the
spoken, on this list -- what I mean is between the tip if the
iceberg of the posters and the depths unplummeted of the
non-posters.  This is of particular interest as I watch and muse
over the Aion list as well.

I will post some more on this theme. . .  but not under the PLG
banner,

Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sat Mar 02 21:18:58 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: Re: Announcing some plans . . . 
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 08:18:58 GMT


Hi all,

On Fri, 01 Mar 1996 02:41:23 GMT  walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
(Walter Logeman)  wrote:

I think I did something wrong, my last post on this thread went
haywire. . .  I'll recapture the theme . . . shorter . . .

I am learning LISTSERV(TM) and enjoying the learning curve. . . 

Looking forward to moving the Psybernet based lists across to
Home Ease in the U.S.A.

Would still like to have some people sub  as below . . . playing
around with the software . . . could be fun.

Walter 


> Hi,
> 
> I am in the process (with some sadness) of phasing out the
> Psybernet BBS -- this is to consolidate Psybernet on the Internet
> -- and to make it more stable as an environment.  
> 
> This involves learning to run listserv lists remotely -- and I
> have started that by setting up a list called 
> 
> GROUP-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM 
> 
> It is in the testing and learning stages and I would welcome
> users to participate in this learning process -- hence for the
> next month or so the list will be used for chat and testing and
> learning about listserv lists.  
> 
> I intend to use this list for Psybernet Small Groups at some
> point after that and will need to kick everyone off again --
> (those interested in the Psybernet Small Group would need to
> resub.) 
> 
> The list is private and subscription requests go to me for
> validation.  To subscribe -- please send mail to:
> 
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> 
> with text:
> 
> SUB Group-L Your Name
> 
> as the body of the message. 


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Sat Mar 02 21:18:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Announcing some plans . . .
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 08:18:58 GMT



Hi all,

On Fri, 01 Mar 1996 02:41:23 GMT  walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
(Walter Logeman)  wrote:

I think I did something wrong, my last post on this thread went
haywire. . .  I'll recapture the theme . . . shorter . . .

I am learning LISTSERV(TM) and enjoying the learning curve. . . 

Looking forward to moving the Psybernet based lists across to
Home Ease in the U.S.A.

Would still like to have some people sub  as below . . . playing
around with the software . . . could be fun.

Walter 


> Hi,
> 
> I am in the process (with some sadness) of phasing out the
> Psybernet BBS -- this is to consolidate Psybernet on the Internet
> -- and to make it more stable as an environment.  
> 
> This involves learning to run listserv lists remotely -- and I
> have started that by setting up a list called 
> 
> GROUP-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM 
> 
> It is in the testing and learning stages and I would welcome
> users to participate in this learning process -- hence for the
> next month or so the list will be used for chat and testing and
> learning about listserv lists.  
> 
> I intend to use this list for Psybernet Small Groups at some
> point after that and will need to kick everyone off again --
> (those interested in the Psybernet Small Group would need to
> resub.) 
> 
> The list is private and subscription requests go to me for
> validation.  To subscribe -- please send mail to:
> 
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> 
> with text:
> 
> SUB Group-L Your Name
> 
> as the body of the message. 


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sat Mar 02 23:37:17 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: Consensus in cyberspace
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 10:37:17 GMT

a wisp of a thought . . . 

All the questions about cyberspace nation, and if the net can
govern itself make me think . . . I tend to think that the real
power is _off-line_.

In a list like this what is consensus?   . . .  If there is no
opposition?   How does power here correlate with power in the
world?  I have the power over many things in this list . . .but
not over what we all think? Am I as the facilitator in a position
to sum up and declare what the consensus is?  



Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sun Mar 03 00:42:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: PLG Move 5
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 11:42:33 GMT

Hi  all,

On Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:57:16 -0500  hoon@apk.net  wrote:


> To indentify totally with this invisible realm is to cross the barrier into
> what then becomes a terrible wholeness, a frightening unity; to participate
> unwisely is to identify in this way; at it matters not if one began with a
> sword!
> 
> Thus, the sword of the adept comes into play. How to go down and not be
> drawn hopelessly into the underworld's unity?

I feel drawn into unfathomable complexities . . . but I will try
to keep myself oriented

I am reminded of a book I read by 

Colegrave, Suki 1979
Uniting Heaven and Earth.  Jeremy p. Tarcher Inc.
Los Angeles.

She is a feminist -- perhaps androgynist? who is not all for the
Great Mother like some feminists . . . she sees that feminine
principle as capable of swallowing us up -- and favours , Uniting
Heaven and Earth, ie honouring the logos, animus, masculine
principles . . .  in other words bringing in a sword, of a sort
to provide a unity . . . 

Am I on track?  I mean are we speaking the same language?

In Aion recently my presence was identified as the ego of the
list . . .  I feel a bit like that here . . . trying to make
sense of it all.   

 
> (Believe me, it happens. And when it does one shouts just as hopelessly,
> "Jesus does not carry a sword!" over the phone lines.)

Is that because of the pain!  of not being allowed to enter into
the depths or heights of the unconscious or invisible (to the
everyday reality) realms?

> ***
> 
> I awake: I see
> burning shadows
> 
> 
> placed in position 9
> 
> end of move
> 

Hmmm . . . 

I find this all dark, shadowy, and at the same time full of
intensity . . .  like Bruce Springsteen's song about fire, or the
Doors one?  



Walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Sun Mar 03 00:42:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG Move 5
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 11:42:33 GMT


Hi  all,

On Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:57:16 -0500  hoon@apk.net  wrote:


> To indentify totally with this invisible realm is to cross the barrier into
> what then becomes a terrible wholeness, a frightening unity; to participate
> unwisely is to identify in this way; at it matters not if one began with a
> sword!
> 
> Thus, the sword of the adept comes into play. How to go down and not be
> drawn hopelessly into the underworld's unity?

I feel drawn into unfathomable complexities . . . but I will try
to keep myself oriented

I am reminded of a book I read by 

Colegrave, Suki 1979
Uniting Heaven and Earth.  Jeremy p. Tarcher Inc.
Los Angeles.

She is a feminist -- perhaps androgynist? who is not all for the
Great Mother like some feminists . . . she sees that feminine
principle as capable of swallowing us up -- and favours , Uniting
Heaven and Earth, ie honouring the logos, animus, masculine
principles . . .  in other words bringing in a sword, of a sort
to provide a unity . . . 

Am I on track?  I mean are we speaking the same language?

In Aion recently my presence was identified as the ego of the
list . . .  I feel a bit like that here . . . trying to make
sense of it all.   

 
> (Believe me, it happens. And when it does one shouts just as hopelessly,
> "Jesus does not carry a sword!" over the phone lines.)

Is that because of the pain!  of not being allowed to enter into
the depths or heights of the unconscious or invisible (to the
everyday reality) realms?

> ***
> 
> I awake: I see
> burning shadows
> 
> 
> placed in position 9
> 
> end of move
> 

Hmmm . . . 

I find this all dark, shadowy, and at the same time full of
intensity . . .  like Bruce Springsteen's song about fire, or the
Doors one?  



Walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From hoon@apk.net Sun Mar 03 01:24:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: sword the logos-cutter
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 07:24:01 -0500


Walter writes -Re: PLG: sword the logos-cutter->

>I'm interested in this . . . though it is all getting a bit
>obscure . . . everything relates to everything else . . .  apples
>to creation, creation to destruction, destruction to swords,
>swords to unity, unity to wholeness, wholeness to healing . . .
>what ever you like.

Walter? "what ever you like" ? Sure, but: so? Anyway your chain is apt and
resonates with my intention...in playing the game...which is about
association.
>
>I am not against this . . . sometimes it makes sense to _cut-off_
>as many of the associations as possible and focus on the main one
>. . .

I'm wondering if this is too much and too obscure for you, bud? The
"sometimes" is of course the loaded word. This time? :-)

>
>Perhaps you are doing that . . . the main one that strikes me
>from reading the list of late is the theme of the split between
>the conscious and the unconscious --

Yes; my intention is to explore through the vehicle of the game this theme;
I'm not giving much away here -right, Charles?- but also trying to not give
any pat answers to what is (not obscure,) but obscured...if you catch my
drift!
>
>It is inherent in the contrast between the silence and the
>spoken, on this list -- what I mean is between the tip if the
>iceberg of the posters and the depths unplummeted of the
>non-posters.  This is of particular interest as I watch and muse
>over the Aion list as well.
>
>
>I will post some more on this theme. . .  but not under the PLG
>banner,
>
I look forward to your thoughts on this. In Net_Dynamics it has been
pointed out that the projections on the invisible lurkers are strong and
loop back to sometimes cause effects on the dialogue.

Stephen






From hipbone@earthlink.net Sun Mar 03 08:45:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Explanatory Post (longish)
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 11:45:41 -0800


Our Game has become, perhaps, a little hard to follow, so I thought it was
time to step in with a post in explanation...

Walter writes:

> I'm interested in this... though it is all getting a bit obscure...
> everything relates to everything else...  apples to creation, creation
> to destruction, destruction to swords, swords to unity, unity to
> wholeness, wholeness to healing... what ever you like.

and in another post:

> I will try to keep myself oriented

and:

> I feel a bit like that here . . . trying to make sense of it all.

*

We've been playing an unusual Game here, Walter, and I've been feeling
similarly disoriented myself.

Normally, the moves in a WaterBird Game include (i) a short title (which
can be written into the appropriate position on the Game Board), (ii) an
image, text or piece of music which constitutes the body of the move,
together with (iii) enough associated text to explain its origin or
context, and in the case of all moves except the first (iv) an account of
the links claimed with previous moves.

Of these, (iii) serves to make sure that one's readers / fellow players
know *what* the move is, while (iv) gives the Game its tightness, since the
associations which can be named are limited to those between a given move
and those previous moves linked to it *along the lines of the Game Board*.


This rule is intended to generate precisely the focused effect that you
mentioned in your insightful comment:

> sometimes it makes sense to _cut-off_ as many of the associations
> as possible and focus on the main one...

To be fair, I should admit that "secondary associations" can also be named
between a given move and another which is somehow symmetrical with it on
the board (eg positions 1 and 10, 4 and 5) or in play (eg first and last
move), but these are as I say secondary.  And if a Game is played in which
any and all associations with any and all previous moves are allowed,
regardless of position on the board, it looses the "tightness" that the
board can otherwise impose, and one might as well simply list a bunch of
associated ideas with no particular board to corral them and no particular
sense of beginning or completion...

I have found that moves written in this way tend to run between 100 and 500
words, and usually request players to strive for a 200 word maximum (with
considerable leeway possible when a very rich move presents itself).

*

Stephen is not playing the Game like this: he is far more evocative, giving
his moves in the form of (i) and (ii) above, and then posting some of (iii)
and (iv) later as the spirit moves him.  The result?

> I find this all dark, shadowy, and at the same time full of intensity
> ...  like Bruce Springsteen's song about fire, or the Doors one?

If Stephen wasn't managing this kind of dark, shadowy, intense effect, I
would probably have posted a message along these lines earlier in the Game,
and requested that he observe the (i), (ii), (iii), (iv) format and keep as
close to the 200 word limit as he could without doing his moves any
injustice.

But his moves do have an intensity to them, and I suspect he may be working
some lines of association that are "buried" -- non-obvious -- in the way in
which certain surrealist poems are non-obvious.  The effect can be quite
lovely, and I'm frankly interested to see how things develop...

Besides, what Stephen is doing is in some ways an instructive experiment in
terms of our plans for a possible Dream Game to follow -- because he is
scattering *more* associations in some ways than usual (see his recent
flurry of posts around swords), and a Dream Game would probably work best
if there was a "free association" stage followed by a "corraling and
condensing" stage.  So I'm watching this somewhat diffuse or pointilliste
effect with an eye to its drawbacks and advantages.  I frankly think it
makes for a less interesting Game for readers who are following along with
us, and hope that at Game's end Stephen will be willing to edit his moves
and associated posts into something much closer to the (i), (ii), (iii),
(iv) format above, so that we can post a "focused" Game as a single post to
the list.

Stephen, is that okay with you?

Walter, I think that you and I will have to do a very similar "second
stage" editing of the dream associations when we play our Dream Game...

*

Furthermore, Stephen -- in his idiosyncratic way -- happens to have posted
recent moves (3, 5) into the two most commanding positions on the board,
positions 8 and 9.  These two positions have *far* more links to other
positions than the rest, and the Game is more challenging if one leaves
them until quite a number of the other positions have been filled in, so
that whoever moves in 8 or 9 has to come up with a move that connects quite
a variety of different things -- though it is also possible to leave them
until so late in the Game that they become virtually impossible.

There's nothing in the rules to say when these moves should be made, of
course, and given the experimental character of this Game, I will again be
interested to see the way in which Stephen's choosing to play these two
moves fairly early on acts as a kind of double lens to bring the rest of
the board into coherence.

And I'm also aware that as the second player, I shall have the final move,
and perhaps be able to draw some disparate strands together at that point.

*

Stephen quotes your chain of associations, "apples to creation to
destruction to swords to unity to wholeness to healing" -- and your
summation of the Game's theme as "the split between the conscious and the
unconscious" -- and writes:

> your chain is apt and resonates with my intention...

and:

> Yes; my intention is to explore through the vehicle of the game
> this theme...

I think we are in the first stage of a two stage process with this
particular game, and that in the end we will have a quite lovely and
insightful Game.  Remember that the aesthetic of the Game is really at
least as much a matter of the meditations one can make on the links between
different positions *after* the Game is complete as of the excitement,
sudden discoveries and possible confusions which present themselves
sequentially in the course of play...

*

Best wishes to all, my own next move follows post haste...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Sun Mar 03 08:46:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Move 6
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 11:46:02 -0800


Charles plays Move 6: "knife and wound" in position 4

In the recently released film, Mary Reilly, which retells the Jekyll and
Hyde story from the POV of Mary, Dr Jekyll's parlor maid, there's a moment
of summation towards the very end in which Dr Jekyll says:::  You see, I
always wanted to be both the knife and the wound

If our Game was presented on the Web, this move would take the form of the
clip from the film in which these words are spoken.

The connection with "sword" at 8 is obvious.  I believe Dr Jekyll / Mr Hyde
can be construed as "peculiar people" -- or should that be "a peculiar
people" <grin> at 2?  And "I awake: I see burning shadows" is a pretty
concise summary of the theme of the scene in which Dr Jekyll speaks these
words...  in a film which is itself moody and intense in the extreme.

<end of move>

*

                          knife and wound
                                4
                              * |**
                            *   | ***
                          *     |  ****
                        *       |   *****
                      *         |    ******
                    *           |     *******
        peculiar people         |      ********
                2---------------|---------------6
              * | **            |        *******| *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
     *          |           ****|*******      **|           *
   *            |             [sword]*******I awake: I see    *
1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10
  *             |             **|******    burning shadows,   *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
      three strange angels      |        *******| *
                3---------------|---------------7
                  *             |      ********
                    *           |     *******
                      *         |    ******
                        *       |   *****
                          *     |  ****
                            *   | ***
                       who...would hear me?
                                5

*

Your move, Stephen...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From hipbone@earthlink.net Sun Mar 03 08:46:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Explanatory Post (short form)
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 11:46:21 -0800


For those of you who may be lurking, and a little puzzled by our Game...

For various reasons which I outline in the "longish" post that accompanies
this one, the Game Stephen and I are playing is a little different from
most previous Games.  What this means in practical terms is that you may be
a little overwhelmed by the variety of posts...  If that's the case, take
heart -- I have two suggestions which may make it easier for you to follow
this Game...

*

The first one is this:

Print out the board after each move, and focus in on the moves as briefly
named there.  The essence of the Game is in the connections between these
moves along the board lines -- including those lines which define the wings
and tail of the WaterBird.  A brief scanning of the various posts which
"amplify" the different moves will give you enough material that when you
return to the board and read the names of the moves in their various
positions, the general idea will be clear for you -- and it's not important
to hold every detail of the associations in mind.

So go back to the board, and focus on the move names and the links you can
see between those positions which are linked by lines on the board...
you'll get the heart of the thing, and the Game *should* be a lot easier to
understand in this way.

And the second is this:

At the end of the Game, we will -- god willing -- be posting a Game
summary, which will collect the many associations and amplifications and
focus them down into specific move descriptions.  By this point in our
exploration, the Game should be crystal clear -- a diamond-like display of
very specific thoughts and images in relationship on the board.

So if the first suggestion still leaves you confused and uncertain, you
might consider waiting until the Game is complete, ignorning the PLG posts
in the meantime, and then reading the whole Game as presented in final
form...

*

Hoping this is helpful, and that there are in fact some of you lurking
along with our Game...  which I think in the end will be profoundly
beautiful...

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Mar 03 10:33:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: unsubbing co
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 21:33:37 GMT


unsub psyber-l
unsub aion
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sun Mar 03 11:50:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: PLG: sword the logos-cutter
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 22:50:31 GMT

Hi  Stephen, Charles & all watching this game,

More comments from the audience!

Steve wrote:
> I'm wondering if this is too much and too obscure for you, bud? The
> "sometimes" is of course the loaded word. This time? :-)

I was overwhelmed, but then really sat down and read all your
posts, and am a more onto it, you have put in some good work --
thanks -- and I am all the better for expressing some of my
difficulty, I hope I do not offend . . .  

> >Perhaps you are doing that . . . the main one that strikes me
> >from reading the list of late is the theme of the split between
> >the conscious and the unconscious --
> 
> Yes; my intention is to explore through the vehicle of the game this theme;
> I'm not giving much away here -right, Charles?

I am glad I have caught the main drift -- this confirmation is
helpful (I mean it, as a therapist I make the most daring
summaries and reflections . . . but I am used to watching the
eyes of the other person . . I immediately see if we are on the
same track -- their track) .  It seems then that in the cut and
thrust of the game there is also an area obscured,  you are
offering a lot, but also not giving much away, as in the plot of
a film . . . 

on with the show . . . 


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Sun Mar 03 11:50:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Projections
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 22:50:34 GMT


Stephen in a message about the game, wrote:

> In Net_Dynamics it has been
> pointed out that the projections on the invisible lurkers are strong and
> loop back to sometimes cause effects on the dialogue.

I have about 3000 net-dynamics messages on my disk  -- I keep
thinking  . . . one day.  This little comment from yours though
is probably a fine summary of many messages.  

I project: 

That some people never see the mail, but are just like me in
Net_Dynamics -- thinking it might be worth keeping for a rainy
day.  One or two of these will surface some time . . . 

That some people just delete the mail as fast as it comes . . . 

Some stay on the list out of loyalty -- to me?  the concept?  to
a memory of a time they were more active?

Some are _afraid_ to post in this heavy duty space . . . full of
-- what they see as very erudite people -- that is my projection
of their projection!  Thank goodness we don't all have that
projection!

Some are reading intently _everything_ that comes up, and are not
afraid -- but . . . yes they are . . . afraid that if they get
involved than it will overwhelm their everyday life!  (as it well
might!). 

Some are here for a quick look, and this is just not their scene
--  ( to unsub please send to the listserv not to the list!)  

Some find it reassuring to see Psybernet mail just arrive year
after year (especially as there is not too much of it) , it gives
them a feeling that there is some stability on cyberspace. 

Any one else have projections?

Walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From dobe@netcom.com Sun Mar 03 12:56:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: 
From: lynn petrangelo <dobe@netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:56:37 -0800 (PST)




unsusbscribe psyber-l




From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Sun Mar 03 14:54:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: unsubbing
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 01:54:17 GMT


Hi  lynn petrangelo <dobe@netcom.com> and all,

On Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:56:37 -0800 (PST)  lynn petrangelo
<dobe@netcom.com>  wrote:

> unsusbscribe psyber-l

Here is the information you need, and i need too!  thanks for
your interest.

Walter 


== To Unsubscribe from the List  ==

Send a message to:
listserv@link.southern.co.nz  


Write nothing in the text except:


unsub PSYBER-L

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sun Mar 03 14:54:17 1996
To: lynn petrangelo <dobe@netcom.com>, Psyber-L
Subject: Re: unsubbing 
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 01:54:17 GMT

Hi  lynn petrangelo <dobe@netcom.com> and all,

On Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:56:37 -0800 (PST)  lynn petrangelo
<dobe@netcom.com>  wrote:

> unsusbscribe psyber-l

Here is the information you need, and i need too!  thanks for
your interest.

Walter 


== To Unsubscribe from the List  ==

Send a message to:
listserv@link.southern.co.nz  


Write nothing in the text except:


unsub PSYBER-L

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sun Mar 03 15:24:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: unsubbing co
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 02:24:29 GMT

Hi  Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz> and all,

On Sat, 02 Mar 1996 21:33:37 GMT  Walter Logeman
<walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>  wrote:


> 
> unsub psyber-l
> unsub aion

Oh dear, I an not leaving! -- i should have sent this to the
listserv@link.southern.co.nz, as i am trying to reset my
software to the address that has .org in it and not .co.  

Dont worry, all is well! I just made a little slip!


w
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sun Mar 03 17:12:38 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: A list is not a Group  [was: Behind the times?]
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 04:12:38 GMT

On Sat, 24 Feb 1996 I   wrote:

> Time and cohesiveness in email groups.

> Have we ( or maybe just me?) made the shift into the medium when
> I think of groups that have a _fixed_ duration like the proposed
> H&N?  Certainly the proposed two weeks per chapter was not a
> workable structure in _Aion_ . . . 

I just noticed that I call a _list_ a group!  I have a little
book at home _A PC is not a Typewriter_  and one of the books I
intend to write   <g>  is An email is not a Letter.  And a list
is not a group.   

Stephen, has this come up in Net_Dynamics?  


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sun Mar 03 17:12:44 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: A list is not a Group
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 04:12:44 GMT

Below is a message

To: Multiple recipients of list NEW-LIST <NEW-LIST@VM1.NODAK.EDU>

I bring it here to note one point:

>    Keep in mind that any debate eventually
>    dwindles into a conversation and if this annoys you, don't subscribe.

Another example of the phenomena of waves . . .  energy builds
and breaks and then flows on . . .  Facilitation changes this . .
. so it does not happen in a group?  









Subject: CHANGE: dawn-l - Digest List Now Available
From: Darcy Williamson <darcyw@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:59:42 CST


   Dawn-l now has a digest version of the list available for
those who
   want to participate but who find the massive amount of email
   daunting.

Dawn-l on majordomo@teleport.com  Discussion/Debate of American &
World News

   Dawn-l is an unmoderated list for those people who are news
junkies.
   The purpose of the list is to solicit commentary, opinions and
   statistical and anecdotal evidence from list members about
what is
   happening in the world of news, whether it be your
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   town, state, province or country (and/or other topics of
interest).

   Members are urged to submit non-copyrighted news stories for
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   - around 5k is comfortable.  Be warned, this is a high volume
list so
   please subscribe to the digest version if you cannot handle as
many
   as 100 messages each day.  Keep in mind that any debate
eventually
   dwindles into a conversation and if this annoys you, don't
subscribe.

   To subscribe, send the following command in the BODY of e-mail
to
   MAJORDOMO@TELEPORT.COM

      subscribe dawn-l your email address

   For Example:  subscribe dawn-l johndoe@aol.com

   To subscribe to the DIGEST version send the following command
in the
   BODY of e-mail to MAJORDOMO@TELEPORT.COM

      subscribe dawn-l-digest your email address

   For Example:  subscribe dawn-l-digest johndoe@aol.com

   Debating topics in which you have firm beliefs can engender
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   KEEP FLAMES LOW and be aware there are other members on the
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   have feelings which may be bruised easily.

   For any questions, contact the list owner.

   Owner:  Darcy Williamson  darcyw@teleport.com



---------------------------------------------------------------------
   DISCLAIMER: NEW-LIST announcements are edited from information
   provided by the original submitter.  We do NOT verify the
technical
   accuracy nor any claims made in the announcements nor do we
   necessarily agree with them.  We do not warranty or guarantee
any
   services which might be announced - use at your own risk.  For
more
   information send e-mail to LISTSERV@VM1.NoDak.EDU with the
command
   GET NEW-LIST README  in the body.  mgh

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sun Mar 03 18:58:37 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: A list is not a Group
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 05:58:37 GMT

On Sun, 03 Mar 1996 04:12:44 GMT, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
(Walter Logeman) wrote:

Below is a message

To: Multiple recipients of list NEW-LIST <NEW-LIST@VM1.NODAK.EDU>

I bring it here to note one point:

>    Keep in mind that any debate eventually
>    dwindles into a conversation and if this annoys you, don't subscribe.

Another example of the phenomena of waves . . .  energy builds
and breaks and then flows on . . .  Facilitation changes this . .
. so it does not happen in a group?  









Subject: CHANGE: dawn-l - Digest List Now Available
From: Darcy Williamson <darcyw@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:59:42 CST


   Dawn-l now has a digest version of the list available for
those who
   want to participate but who find the massive amount of email
   daunting.

Dawn-l on majordomo@teleport.com  Discussion/Debate of American &
World News

   Dawn-l is an unmoderated list for those people who are news
junkies.
   The purpose of the list is to solicit commentary, opinions and
   statistical and anecdotal evidence from list members about
what is
   happening in the world of news, whether it be your
neighborhood,
   town, state, province or country (and/or other topics of
interest).

   Members are urged to submit non-copyrighted news stories for
   discussion and debate;  however, try to keep the file size
under 20k
   - around 5k is comfortable.  Be warned, this is a high volume
list so
   please subscribe to the digest version if you cannot handle as
many
   as 100 messages each day.  Keep in mind that any debate
eventually
   dwindles into a conversation and if this annoys you, don't
subscribe.

   To subscribe, send the following command in the BODY of e-mail
to
   MAJORDOMO@TELEPORT.COM

      subscribe dawn-l your email address

   For Example:  subscribe dawn-l johndoe@aol.com

   To subscribe to the DIGEST version send the following command
in the
   BODY of e-mail to MAJORDOMO@TELEPORT.COM

      subscribe dawn-l-digest your email address

   For Example:  subscribe dawn-l-digest johndoe@aol.com

   Debating topics in which you have firm beliefs can engender
passion.
   KEEP FLAMES LOW and be aware there are other members on the
list who
   have feelings which may be bruised easily.

   For any questions, contact the list owner.

   Owner:  Darcy Williamson  darcyw@teleport.com



---------------------------------------------------------------------
   DISCLAIMER: NEW-LIST announcements are edited from information
   provided by the original submitter.  We do NOT verify the
technical
   accuracy nor any claims made in the announcements nor do we
   necessarily agree with them.  We do not warranty or guarantee
any
   services which might be announced - use at your own risk.  For
more
   information send e-mail to LISTSERV@VM1.NoDak.EDU with the
command
   GET NEW-LIST README  in the body.  mgh

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Sun Mar 03 18:58:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: A list is not a Group
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 05:58:37 GMT


On Sun, 03 Mar 1996 04:12:44 GMT, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
(Walter Logeman) wrote:

Below is a message

To: Multiple recipients of list NEW-LIST <NEW-LIST@VM1.NODAK.EDU>

I bring it here to note one point:

>    Keep in mind that any debate eventually
>    dwindles into a conversation and if this annoys you, don't subscribe.

Another example of the phenomena of waves . . .  energy builds
and breaks and then flows on . . .  Facilitation changes this . .
. so it does not happen in a group?  









Subject: CHANGE: dawn-l - Digest List Now Available
From: Darcy Williamson <darcyw@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:59:42 CST


   Dawn-l now has a digest version of the list available for
those who
   want to participate but who find the massive amount of email
   daunting.

Dawn-l on majordomo@teleport.com  Discussion/Debate of American &
World News

   Dawn-l is an unmoderated list for those people who are news
junkies.
   The purpose of the list is to solicit commentary, opinions and
   statistical and anecdotal evidence from list members about
what is
   happening in the world of news, whether it be your
neighborhood,
   town, state, province or country (and/or other topics of
interest).

   Members are urged to submit non-copyrighted news stories for
   discussion and debate;  however, try to keep the file size
under 20k
   - around 5k is comfortable.  Be warned, this is a high volume
list so
   please subscribe to the digest version if you cannot handle as
many
   as 100 messages each day.  Keep in mind that any debate
eventually
   dwindles into a conversation and if this annoys you, don't
subscribe.

   To subscribe, send the following command in the BODY of e-mail
to
   MAJORDOMO@TELEPORT.COM

      subscribe dawn-l your email address

   For Example:  subscribe dawn-l johndoe@aol.com

   To subscribe to the DIGEST version send the following command
in the
   BODY of e-mail to MAJORDOMO@TELEPORT.COM

      subscribe dawn-l-digest your email address

   For Example:  subscribe dawn-l-digest johndoe@aol.com

   Debating topics in which you have firm beliefs can engender
passion.
   KEEP FLAMES LOW and be aware there are other members on the
list who
   have feelings which may be bruised easily.

   For any questions, contact the list owner.

   Owner:  Darcy Williamson  darcyw@teleport.com



---------------------------------------------------------------------
   DISCLAIMER: NEW-LIST announcements are edited from information
   provided by the original submitter.  We do NOT verify the
technical
   accuracy nor any claims made in the announcements nor do we
   necessarily agree with them.  We do not warranty or guarantee
any
   services which might be announced - use at your own risk.  For
more
   information send e-mail to LISTSERV@VM1.NoDak.EDU with the
command
   GET NEW-LIST README  in the body.  mgh

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sun Mar 03 18:59:05 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: A list is not a Group  [was: Behind the times?]
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 05:59:05 GMT

On Sun, 03 Mar 1996 04:12:38 GMT, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
(Walter Logeman) wrote:

On Sat, 24 Feb 1996 I   wrote:

> Time and cohesiveness in email groups.

> Have we ( or maybe just me?) made the shift into the medium when
> I think of groups that have a _fixed_ duration like the proposed
> H&N?  Certainly the proposed two weeks per chapter was not a
> workable structure in _Aion_ . . . 

I just noticed that I call a _list_ a group!  I have a little
book at home _A PC is not a Typewriter_  and one of the books I
intend to write   <g>  is An email is not a Letter.  And a list
is not a group.   

Stephen, has this come up in Net_Dynamics?  


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Sun Mar 03 18:59:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: A list is not a Group  [was: Behind the times?]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 05:59:05 GMT


On Sun, 03 Mar 1996 04:12:38 GMT, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
(Walter Logeman) wrote:

On Sat, 24 Feb 1996 I   wrote:

> Time and cohesiveness in email groups.

> Have we ( or maybe just me?) made the shift into the medium when
> I think of groups that have a _fixed_ duration like the proposed
> H&N?  Certainly the proposed two weeks per chapter was not a
> workable structure in _Aion_ . . . 

I just noticed that I call a _list_ a group!  I have a little
book at home _A PC is not a Typewriter_  and one of the books I
intend to write   <g>  is An email is not a Letter.  And a list
is not a group.   

Stephen, has this come up in Net_Dynamics?  


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Sun Mar 03 18:59:40 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: unsubbing co
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 05:59:40 GMT


On Sun, 03 Mar 1996 02:24:29 GMT, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
(Walter Logeman) wrote:

Hi  Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz> and all,

On Sat, 02 Mar 1996 21:33:37 GMT  Walter Logeman
<walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>  wrote:


> 
> unsub psyber-l
> unsub aion

Oh dear, I an not leaving! -- i should have sent this to the
listserv@link.southern.co.nz, as i am trying to reset my
software to the address that has .org in it and not .co.  

Dont worry, all is well! I just made a little slip!


w
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sun Mar 03 18:59:40 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: Re: unsubbing co
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 05:59:40 GMT

On Sun, 03 Mar 1996 02:24:29 GMT, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
(Walter Logeman) wrote:

Hi  Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz> and all,

On Sat, 02 Mar 1996 21:33:37 GMT  Walter Logeman
<walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>  wrote:


> 
> unsub psyber-l
> unsub aion

Oh dear, I an not leaving! -- i should have sent this to the
listserv@link.southern.co.nz, as i am trying to reset my
software to the address that has .org in it and not .co.  

Dont worry, all is well! I just made a little slip!


w
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Mon Mar 04 04:06:47 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Explanatory Post
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 10:06:47 -0500


re: PLG waterbird game

Charles, Walter, all attempting to follow the game,

Stephen's CLAIMER:

My intention is to play the game according to my own instincts and
intuitions and intellect and not otherwise according to whatever had
transpired in similar games.

My attitude is experimenting and exploring a form through this medium.

I am well aware this has become a bit 'much', or obscure, or verbose; but,
I am intentionally indulging myself in this public space to make the
connections as resonant with my own preoccupations.

I trust lurkers have their ways of dealing with the (compelling/repelling
aspects of the) game filling up their email boxes.

This is, so far, been great fun and meaningful for me, and, is also right
up the alleyway where I do my own work...and play.


Stephen






From hoon@apk.net Mon Mar 04 04:27:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Explanatory Post SC:1
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 10:27:25 -0500


PLG: re: waterbird game

A guide for the disoriented pt 1:


>We've been playing an unusual Game here, Walter, and I've been feeling
>similarly disoriented myself.
>
>Normally, [snip]

For this game the 'normal' has been ignored by me. Intentionally. See
explanation that follows somewhere below.

[snip]

>And if a Game is played in which
>any and all associations with any and all previous moves are allowed,
>regardless of position on the board, it looses the "tightness" that the
>board can otherwise impose, and one might as well simply list a bunch of
>associated ideas with no particular board to corral them and no particular
>sense of beginning or completion...

The game will surely end! With the last move. Strangely enough, my feeling
out the board is what has inspired me to amplify the contexts of the
*sword*. It is a matter of complexity more than aesthetics for me
personally, (but then, you might ask me: to what objective am I heading.)

Good question; the journey is the objective, and the game is the journey.

>
>I have found that moves written in this way tend to run between 100 and 500
>words, and usually request players to strive for a 200 word maximum (with
>considerable leeway possible when a very rich move presents itself).
>

I have no problem with the strictures but obviously for this game I have
self-indulgently ignored them. To those who find this rude and
presumptuous: I'm sorry, and, yet, as Bill the Cat would say: "aaaak".

There is a method to my madness, but it is my madness after all. ;-)

[snip]

>I would probably have posted a message along these lines earlier in the Game,
>and requested that he observe the (i), (ii), (iii), (iv) format and keep as
>close to the 200 word limit as he could without doing his moves any
>injustice.

I would have agreed to do this and been humbled, apologetic. I would like
to continue in the same mode I have been but will do so understanding and
responding in sympathy with the recommendations.

(In my next post, the aforementioned, 'somewhere below', I'd like to
explain a bit more what my intention concerns.)

Stephen






From hoon@apk.net Mon Mar 04 07:21:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Stephen reveals 1
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 13:21:43 -0500


PLG: re: waterbird game

A guide for the disoriented pt 2:

The context of my playing this game has been largely hidden but I would
like to reveal it to all of you who are interested, both in the game, in
the utilization of the email medium for esoteric play, and those of you who
are able to resonate with the level of complexity which is enfolded in the
process of playing the game.

These are personal foci for me but it is their extension which also compel me.

With this series of of posts my intention is to edify.

***

My central preoccupation orbits the question: What is humanness about? A
simple question which begs hundreds more!

Now as it has transpired, I have followed, wandered, been pushed, been led,
misled, blindly stumbled, intentionally and rigorously pursued this
question, only to become increasingly humbled by MYSTERY.

The more I have learned the more mysterious the answers have themselves become.

For the PLG the upshot is simple: the game, as I am playing it, will tend
to be open-ended, as I use the game to pursue the moving target of
increasingly mysterious answers to what starts out as a fairly simple
question:

What connects the players' moves?

The materials I introduce may seem obscure, and contributing an unnecessary
density, and lead away from elegance, even 'loveliness', but they are, in
fact, necessary and, should you work with their implications, aimed at
enriching the game and the game's treasure to-be-revealed.

***

My moves are the most easily exposed part.

***

Charles has been willing, and I know with his own secure and deep
intention, to participate in a game being extended beyond the normal. Among
my intentions is to experiment with the waterbird game and email to see if
the conjunctions of the two mediums may bear the fruits of the tree of
mystery played out using materials aimed at bearing us both through a
process of revelation of depth, eros, connection and, may God will it, a
kernal of seeing-in.

Fortunately, Charles is well aware of 'how this may work' and comfortable
with the intensity of such processes, as others may be.

To say this is to imply a particular about playing this game: whatever the
structure of the game may be, it is in service to the creation of a space
through which the consciousness of Charles and myself intersect and both
the cossonance and dissonance of the virtual music which we are 'playing'
together.

***

The aesthetic metaphor for such virtual music might be related to the
regulation of the game. The classical variant of the game might be
directing the players to arrive at the tight structure and (no less)
intense beauty of Mozart, whereas if we expand beyond the metaphor of
classicism we might then be working within the metaphor of Jazz, say Sun
Ra, or, the hundred drum choirs of the Wolof brotherhood of Senegal. <g>

Mozart being more for everybody than the drum choir, which is for those who
dare.

***

(Drum choirs would be about playing ecstatic games; games for which the
dance of full being is paramount.)

***

xalam,

Stephen






From hoon@apk.net Mon Mar 04 07:23:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Stephen explains 2
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 13:23:52 -0500


PLG: re: waterbird game

A guide for the disoriented pt 3:

***

I'd like to mention personal contextual elements in which the playing of
this game is rooted. My life's work with music and ideas and my own
becoming have led me in rapid personal developments since last Spring:

(1) In the Spring of 1995 the thrashing and end of a grandiose dream
revolving around a job opportunity to move to Los Angeles and become an
executive with a new record label. (thank God!)

(2) Moving my career wishes toward the medium of the internet through the
guidance of a friend here in Cleveland. Then rapidly finding out the web is
an ENFP's candy-store.

(3) After a six week ramping-up on AOL, jumped from there to direct
connection in June.

(4) Almost eleven years after nearly being shot and killed in a hold-up
while helping to run a record store, was offered a job managing a record
store in the worst 'gang' (read: autistic inchoate youths from ghetto,)
mall in Cleveland area. Since I needed a 'gig', took the job. Thank God!

(5) After doing a search on "Jung" discovered the Psybernet web pages and
joined Psyber-L through which I met Walter, Tama, Miles, others, then
Charles. Immediately attracted to open-endedness of Psyber-L; dismayed by
its becoming mostly silent in early December. (BTW, am committed to
Walter's vision of exploring the ramifications -in terms of a depth
psychological view of Psyche- of the internet.)

(6) Expressed the fullness of my interests and dreams and creative spirit
by making my own web suite: http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html

(7) In December, in hopes of networking to further my next career move,
(thinking myself well positioned as internet expert after six months
online, ;| ) met Judith at open house of local inet consultancy and
discovered, amazingly, that there was offline, and in Cleveland, somebody
else who was wondering and wandering in the same field as I.

(8) After numerous weekly conversations with Judith, began to see the
beginnings of how the deepest of my held wishes: to fulfill my self in
service to others, might come about.

(9) Began to work on the growing into manifestation of my 'dream' for my
self: which is to use my training, my passion for music, my interest in
amping up situations and organizations and persons into greater robustness
and depth, and my security amidst the ruins and the mystery, to develop
experiential tools aimed at assisting person(s) to have more fun playing
with their becoming.

(10) Then, while Judith and I were wondering together, and with Walter's
efforts respecting his own different dreams for his own work, Charles jumps
into Psyber-L with his own preoccupations. (refer:
http://www.telepath.com/~gail/deca/index.html) Charles and I converse over
the phone to discuss playing his games on Psyber-L. Thinking how this *all*
dovetails with my growing *wish for my self and my work*, I tell him:
"Let's go for it!" (My fundamental attitude BTW.)

(11) One way to have fun and learn is to (seriously) play our way a few
steps down the path of individuation. Charles has offered this opportunity
to me; Walter's list is facilitating it; I'm 'going for it'.

***

Now, believe me when I point out: these are amazing and non-trivial
developments.

***

Every day I get up and pray and play my way through my own engagement with
THE opportunity, many opportunities.

CONCLUSION: Playing the waterbird game with Charles in an intentionally
personal way in my moves, my way, is an essential and synchronistic
development in my own work and toward the fulfillment of my own dreams.

***

I'm exploring a powerful tool, the game, using an extraordinary medium, the
internet, to see if there is an iteration relevent to my own work.

This is self-indulgent, my efforts may be in error, no doubt this is
tedious to some,
and so be it if this is the case. aaak

***

sincerely,

Stephen







From hoon@apk.net Mon Mar 04 07:26:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Stephen reveals 3
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 13:26:37 -0500


Greetings! : )

The game we are playing now is actively swimming into and out of my
imagination. The imaginal spaces opened up by the game are, to my view,
dancing through core personal, transpersonal, and impersonal confluences.

I will work hard to make my contribution to the summary of the game clear
and concise (did I just write 'concise'?) about what my attempt has
attempted to concern.

However, the obscurity being what it is, as I previously mentioned; this is
not about "whatever" association(s)...the moves and their amplifications
have a clear intention behind them and are focused on core issues of human
becoming and values and collective issues having to do with the unfoldment
of human capacity. They are woven with Charles's moves, which are apt and,
to me, moving the game forward with their own brilliant impetus.

***

Are these treasures accessible through the contemplation of observers as
well as the players? I don't know. We will learn at the game's conclusion.
This has not, duh!, concerned me: to make the game accessible to the
observers.

***

Others may be working with the moves alone or utilizing the data of the
amplifications to enrich their role as observers. This may be difficult
work with unclear or unspecified rewards.

All this stuff about angels and swords and peculiar people and *who would
hear me* (marvelous!) and now, the burning shadows and knife and wound, may
seem impossibly obscure by itself, let alone adding in the backround to the
Hesperides, to sword play, the full elegies, etc.

But, this game is playing seriously with hugely meaningful elements and
should it traverse great spaces only to become obscure, esoteric,
paradoxical, then we might be, players and playing observers, at the point
where, as Jung put it, 'the antimonies are to be worked out'.

In other words my intention has been to take Charles and whoever is able to
come along to an alchemical-like place utilizing email and the focused
intentions of the players and willing observers. My effort may fail; so
far, it has not: everything is going swimmingly!

As for the alchemy-like aspects: not surprising then to encounter fire and
sword and darkness and wound!

I bow to you in gratitude for matching my intention Charles.

***

At this point, yes...this may only be of interest to Walter and Charles.
However, I have from day one thought of Psyber-L as a space for the
expression of psychological depth and if certain threads should become
rarified, then that is their necessity.

***

Some of what Charles said previously in preparing us for these kinds of games:

>...so the emergent spiritualities of our times may be influenced by the
>nature (and availability) of the evolving net.

>
>
>I *think* this is because the kinds of metaphors and analogies between
>ideas that make for interesting moves in the Game are very similar to the
>kinds of metaphors and analogies between internal and external experiences
>that Jung called synchronicity.  So when you start focusing in on the
>process of analogical thinking, you very likely pick up on more of the
>analogies and synchronicities in the world around you (and within you).

>
>But whether that's the explanation, or whether there's something more
>involved -- activation of the unconscious through the focus on very
>powerful images, perhaps -- the effect is that a Game played via email can
>have quite a powerful impact on one's everyday life.  It's like having a
>very deliberate structure into which to pour one's dreams.
>

>Rumi:
>
>        I am a bird of the garden beyond time,
>        locked for a moment into this cage of ribs.
>

***

(I think the implications of these kinds of games are enormous and will
naturally tend, given what they play with, (human depth and creativity,) to
be -sometimes-  difficult, intense, dark, etc.)

***

Charles: what do you mean by *lovely*?

***

best to all and thanks to the few forbearing enough to be reading this,

Stephen






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Mar 04 16:12:24 1996
To: "LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM"
Subject: 
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 03:12:24 GMT

sub group-l Walter co
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Mon Mar 04 17:31:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Going for it! [was: PLG: Stephen explains 2]
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 04:31:50 GMT


Hi Stephen and all,

Love hearing about your life and all the revelations.  I am
definitely on board with the game -- and am pleased I muttered
something about being overwhelmed -- I am now overwhelmed by the
depth of the responses from both you and Charles.  

I was feeling depressed today, but not now -- great how your
revelations have contributed to that -- it is the sense that this
medium works!   I want it to -- I put so much into it, and
sometimes despair!  


> PLG: re: waterbird game

Have moved this out of the PLG: mode as I hope some of our
discussions about our involvement with the game might be of
interest to those -skipping the game!  

[My projection:  there are no such people, they either read the
lot or nothing at all.]

> A guide for the disoriented pt 3:

This post orientates me to you, the game, our work here, and to
my own process especially my net related process.   

> My life's work with music and ideas . . . 

No wonder this game appeals!  The virtual music of ideas.

> rapid personal developments since last Spring:

Good to hear them -- major transitions, consolidations, and
daring moves in the game of life.

> Immediately attracted to open-endedness of Psyber-L; dismayed by
> its becoming mostly silent in early December.

I am still coming to terms worth this -- the list does not have
enough life to sustain a momentum when the New Zealand summer is
at its height.  Next year I am planning to be more of a home body
-- had enough marathon tramping and am also thinking of a trip os
in 97.  


(BTW, am committed to
> Walter's vision of exploring the ramifications -in terms of a depth
> psychological view of Psyche- of the internet.)

I know you are -- and I see you as a companion in that
exploration.  I am still onto it too, I want to add the word
_experiential_ to the list of "depth psychological view of
Psyche"  -- not a very elegant word, but hopefully one that
captures the sense of us _doing_ it as well as reflecting on it
all . . . we certainly do that here . . . the dismay you speak of
in December -- experience of a phenomena . . . and also our
sharing of experiences elsewhere . . .  Aion Net-Dynamics, etc.
I need to say more of my experience here -- esp as, today, when I
felt some dismay -- that world be therapeutic.

> (6) Expressed the fullness of my interests and dreams and creative spirit
> by making my own web suite: http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html

Looks good.  The game looks good there -- perhaps more
"accessible" ( arhhh more on that later -- another post I think.)


> (8) After numerous weekly conversations with Judith, began to see the
> beginnings of how the deepest of my held wishes: to fulfil my self in
> service to others, might come about.

Yes, saw the "concise" statement on your WWW pages.

> "Let's go for it!" (My fundamental attitude BTW.)

I am glad you did -- and have that attitude!  I do too, but
sometimes the dreams are harder to fulfil than to initiate -- for
me that is . . . 

> (11) One way to have fun and learn is to (seriously) play our way a few
> steps down the path of individuation. Charles has offered this opportunity
> to me; Walter's list is facilitating it; I'm 'going for it'.

I am honoured to offer the 'space' & to be a non-participating
but active observer.


> ***
> 
> Now, believe me when I point out: these are amazing and non-trivial
> developments.
> 
> ***

I believe you.



> I'm exploring a powerful tool, the game, using an extraordinary medium, the
> internet, to see if there is an iteration relevent to my own work.

Can you say what you mean by iteration here -- I read it as . . .
to see if there is some significant spin-off for my work" -- am I
missing some subtle extra bit?  Perhaps I am  . . .  what I just
saw in my minds eye was the subtle transformation of images on
the screen as _everything_ subtly changes with the computer doing
another little number on it.  I guess that is what you mean?   Ah
. . . making this more accessible (for myself).  


> This is self-indulgent, my efforts may be in error, no doubt this is
> tedious to some,
> and so be it if this is the case. aaak

Hmmm . . . 

I don't find anything , in these posts or this game tedious --
although _demanding_ might fit . . . the efforts have been
rewarding.  

Others?  I think it is relevant . . .  more later

Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hipbone@earthlink.net Mon Mar 04 19:47:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Re Stephen's CLAIMER & follow ups
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 22:47:11 -0800


Well spoken, Stephen.

I too am treating this as an experimental Game, which it undoubtedly is,
and enjoying it immensely.  I shall hold off on answering your question:

> Charles: what do you mean by *lovely*?

until I've seen your next move, if I may...

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Mon Mar 04 21:23:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: PLG: Stephen reveals 3
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 08:23:24 GMT


Hi,
Steve wrote:

> Are these treasures accessible through the contemplation of observers as
> well as the players? I don't know. We will learn at the game's conclusion.
> This has not, duh!, concerned me: to make the game accessible to the
> observers.

Fair enough -- you have enough to think about -- it is not your
concern!  And it is a very focussed work for you, and Charles.
While there are rules (restraints) in the game -- there are also
areas totally experimental and open-ended -- this is in an open
list and thus there are =others=.  I see Charles as having a
leadership role in this, hence I asked if it was OK to be an
active observer -- it seems that is fine.   

As I am active in that role I become a factor in the game -- or
perhaps it is the other way around -- as the game evolves -- I
can identify myself in it.  

"three strange angels"  

I am moved just to read those words and identify us as those
three!  

"who . . . would hear me"  

I think Steve you have seen that as a comment our process too?  I
do.

Mostly I see the sword taking further the duality between the
known-visible-conscious-mundane and the unconscious, and obscure.
Somehow I pick it up (audience member as I am) and speak of the
obscurity, and in doing so . . . there is light!  

I don't _feel_ light, but I see the value in all this --
tremendous value.  Perhaps I don't feel light because of some
immediate personal hassles -- yet in the midst of some stress I
find it _valuable_ to come here and write this.

> All this stuff about angels and swords and peculiar people and *who would
> hear me* (marvelous!) 

. . . [this is where I thought you made the link with our process
-- although of course it is marvellous for other reasons . . .
and I was projecting.] . . . 

> and now, the burning shadows and knife and wound, may
> seem impossibly obscure by itself, let alone adding in the background to the
> Hesperides, to sword play, the full elegies, etc.

I think it is all marvellous . . . I am still behind in it . . .
I cant keep up -- I don't mean that anyone should go slower --
it is just that feeling of being overwhelmed (subsiding fast).  I
have everything printed out -- something I have not done for
years -- so that it can be studied more easily . . . 


> As for the alchemy-like aspects: not surprising then to encounter fire and
> sword and darkness and wound!
> 
> I bow to you in gratitude for matching my intention Charles.

The  two players _honour_ each other.  

> ***
> if certain threads should become
> rarified, then that is their necessity.

fine fine

> ***
> 
> Some of what Charles said previously in preparing us for these kinds of games:

[snip]

> >analogies and synchronicities in the world around you (and within you).
> 
> >
> >But whether that's the explanation, or whether there's something more
> >involved -- activation of the unconscious through the focus on very
> >powerful images, perhaps -- the effect is that a Game played via email can
> >have quite a powerful impact on one's everyday life.  It's like having a
> >very deliberate structure into which to pour one's dreams.

Yes on ones life, and on the group dynamics of the players and
observers.  

A parallel process as I see it running through all the levels . .
. 

> >Rumi:
> >
> >        I am a bird of the garden beyond time,
> >        locked for a moment into this cage of ribs.

I left that quote in . . . it still fits
 
> best to all and thanks to the few forbearing enough to be reading this,

a pleasure,


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Tue Mar 05 00:53:21 1996
To: 
Subject: winsock setup in win95
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 11:53:21 GMT

Hi,

I am using Win95, Netscape 2.00 (32 bit) Agent 32bit (really good
news and mail reader) with Trumpet -- also the 32 bit version.
It all works fine -- except that 

1.  the trumpet crashes on Java sites

2.  The trumpet is about to expire in 6 days unless I register.

As I did not set up the trumpet originally in Windows  3.1 etc.
but just upgraded thing progressively and automatically, I don't
know much about it all.  I have heard that the winsock that comes
with Win95 is fine and that I should use that -- is that the
case?  What are the steps?

Any other comments on this setup?


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Tue Mar 05 00:57:00 1996
To: 
Subject: Re: Netscape
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 11:57:00 GMT

Derek Goring <goringd@chch.niwa.cri.nz> wrote:

> Is that the 32 bit Netscape you're using?  If so, and you've still got the 
> 16 bit WinSock you're in shitter's ditch like I was a week or so ago.  
> Nothing worked. 

So why not use the 32 bit winsock?  See my next message -- for
some questions about that.

w
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Tue Mar 05 00:57:28 1996
To: 
Subject: winsock & win95
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 11:57:28 GMT

Hi,

I am using Win95, Netscape 2.00 (32 bit) Agent 32bit (really good
news and mail reader) with Trumpet -- also the 32 bit version.
It all works fine -- except that 

1.  the trumpet crashes on Java sites

2.  The trumpet is about to expire in 6 days unless I register.

As I did not set up the trumpet originally in Windows  3.1 etc.
but just upgraded thing progressively and automatically, I don't
know much about it all.  I have heard that the winsock that comes
with Win95 is fine and that I should use that -- is that the
case?  What are the steps?

Any other comments on this setup?


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Tue Mar 05 00:58:02 1996
To: 
Subject: winsock setup in win95
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 11:58:02 GMT

Hi,

I am using Win95, Netscape 2.00 (32 bit) Agent 32bit (really good
news and mail reader) with Trumpet -- also the 32 bit version.
It all works fine -- except that 

1.  the trumpet crashes on Java sites

2.  The trumpet is about to expire in 6 days unless I register.

As I did not set up the trumpet originally in Windows  3.1 etc.
but just upgraded thing progressively and automatically, I don't
know much about it all.  I have heard that the winsock that comes
with Win95 is fine and that I should use that -- is that the
case?  What are the steps?

Any other comments on this setup?


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Tue Mar 05 01:01:54 1996
To: 
Subject: winsock in win95
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 12:01:54 GMT

Hi,

I am using Win95, Netscape 2.00 (32 bit) Agent 32bit (really good
news and mail reader) with Trumpet -- also the 32 bit version.
It all works fine -- except that 

1.  the trumpet crashes on Java sites

2.  The trumpet is about to expire in 6 days unless I register.

As I did not set up the trumpet originally in Windows  3.1 etc.
but just upgraded thing progressively and automatically, I don't
know much about it all.  I have heard that the winsock that comes
with Win95 is fine and that I should use that -- is that the
case?  What are the steps?

Any other comments on this setup?


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Tue Mar 05 02:25:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Going for it! [was: PLG: Stephen explains 2]
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:25:27 -0500


Walter,

Thanks; your responses reinforce the sense we are on the right track.

>I was feeling depressed today, but not now -- great how your
>revelations have contributed to that -- it is the sense that this
>medium works!   I want it to -- I put so much into it, and
>sometimes despair!

This sort of unintentional effect: one might call it therapeutic; my friend
Judith might say: "resetting the needle", is wondrous considering how it is
the ripples of the game's content fit in to your own experience...

[snip]

>I am still coming to terms worth this -- the list does not have
>enough life to sustain a momentum when the New Zealand summer is
>at its height.  Next year I am planning to be more of a home body
>-- had enough marathon tramping and am also thinking of a trip os
>in 97.
>
When you today, at least when I today, think about where we have ended up
and all this 'dovetailing' in my estimation, (image: the flock of birds
rising as one into a deep blue morning sky,) then perhaps December was
Psyber-L's "putrefactio" or something like that.

[snip]

>I am still onto it too, I want to add the word
>_experiential_ to the list of "depth psychological view of
>Psyche"  -- not a very elegant word, but hopefully one that
>captures the sense of us _doing_ it as well as reflecting on it
>all . . . we certainly do that here . . .

Ha! Funny you should choose *experiential* ! More later.
>I am glad you did -- and have that attitude!  I do too, but
>sometimes the dreams are harder to fulfil than to initiate -- for
>me that is . . .

Join the club. Welcome.

[snip]

>> I'm exploring a powerful tool, the game, using an extraordinary medium, the
>> internet, to see if there is an iteration relevent to my own work.
>
>Can you say what you mean by iteration here -- I read it as . . .
>to see if there is some significant spin-off for my work" -- am I
>missing some subtle extra bit?

This concerns both the work we here, and, the additional 'we' (being Judith
and myself in Cleveland,) are doing to find what the internet's utility may
be as a medium in working with people, (each other of course already,) to
explore our in-seeing together.

Hmmmm.

Naive thought: the internet is manifesting to facilitate something grand,
deep, revolutionary, ???, positive (choosing that part of the continuum)
...

having fun,

Stephen






From hoon@apk.net Tue Mar 05 03:18:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: review
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:18:28 -0500


To all,

The current PLG waterbird game's site has been updated:
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html

and grown to two pages. The layout, by putting the moves and commentary in
one place, may help some to see the larger pattern as opposed to patchwork
you receive in your email box.

I'd enjoy any responses, and hope for the unknown effects they might inspire.

...Especially as I wait for my next move to well up from the underworld.

Stephen






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Tue Mar 05 14:30:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama is thrown up from the surface of the Lake-cough,  splutter...
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 13:30:19 +1200


Konichiwa,

Hello 1 & all,
I have been some whet occupied getting ready for & getting back into the
uni.So far,  everything bodes well for a awesomely enjoyable succesful
year-yea Ha to that brothers & sister.
  I must admit to frankly haveing a huge pile up of messages about the game
you guys are playing.I read the 1st couple of moves,  was a bit bewildered,
but enjoyed the discriptions,  of the friends & the angels,  Hey is it
possible that you, Stephen could actually E-mail me the review rather than
haveing to go through reading all the seperate posts,  if you can that
would be wonderfully illuminating.
  I have to apologise about the situation with the dream,  It just got
stuck in the bog & I need to get kick started again,  suggestions,  well I
read the last post on that,  so tell me what ya want again-if I didin't
quite comprehend the 1st time & I'll co-operate more.
  My lifes good,  I just auditioned sucessfully for a play-YES!! Not a
major role-good,   or that would take too much time,  It will be a good
learning exp + great to meet more people & get back into Drama-Yay.
   I'm gonna Go to the beach now-and body board-Awesome!!Then I'll come
back & watch a film for film studies then rehearse,  so I'm busy busy,
which is hreat cause I felt like I was in Hibernation of a sort.I had
Japanese this morning which I liked it also good to be learning another
language,  I quite like the Japanese...
  Well any way I should skid daddle to later people-see ya's... 8)


                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"










From hoon@apk.net Wed Mar 06 05:07:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: time out request
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:07:45 -0500


Charles, all,

Regarding my next move in the Waterbird game: I am requesting a time out in
the game due to circumstances in the non-cyber realm which suggest a time
out and a reconsideration of the intention of my participation in the game.

In advance, thank you for your understanding,

Stephen

***

Give me a fruitful error any time, full of seeds,
bursting with its own corrections.  You can keep your
sterile truths for yourself.
                    Vilfredo Pareto






From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Thu Mar 07 20:51:18 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: Forkman on Depth 
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 07:51:18 GMT

. . . some may recall that we saw it here first!  Here is a quote
from josh's forkman.

width is an underrated dimension, and right now in www it is all
we have, to be sure, depth will follow - but for now that is all
we have let us be content without the content!  let surface rule
over substance

http://www.cyberiacafe.net/cyberia/magazine/forkman


walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Fri Mar 08 10:57:54 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: time out request
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 21:57:54 GMT

Steve,

> . . . circumstances in the non-cyber realm which suggest a time
> out and a reconsideration of the intention of my participation in the game.

I hope that is going OK for you, and that you can make required
adjustments . . . 

Would sharing of your process here be useful?  I would listen and
I expect some others here would.


Walter






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walter@link.southern.co.nz Sat Mar 09 02:03:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: The Great Cyberwars of the 1990s
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.southern.co.nz>
Date: Sat, 09 Mar 1996 01:03:00

Hi,

I am at the dos machine -- as my other connection is out of
action -- contemplating the phrase the Great Cyberwars --
they come from the interview in March wired, of one of the
top Netscape people, Asked what motivates him to work so
hard is that he wants to tell his grandchildren that he was
there -- and won.

I have a sense, not so much of a war but of a very rapid
rate of change where only some survive -- the fittest (by a
tautological definition of fitness).

I am an avid watcher of the process -- and not too bad
seeing what is in the wind (!).  I opted for a terrible XT
at a higher price than a beautiful Amiga! (painful at the
time -- but i did not want to be caught in the dead end).

For a while i thought netscape might go somewhere in the
battle with MS.  But just as i was reading the interview i
was also down loading the MS Internet Explorer, I wanted
the connecting to the Internet Wizard -- and so thought i
might as well keep it . . .

And then i had a slight shift of perception . . . of course
MS will win this . . . they provide the best connection to
the int by far -- they have the operating system -- and
they have the Office suit.  I bet the next upgrade of that
combination will be just one big net browser, where files ,
be they powerpoint or Exel can be saves as Word, Text, Html
etc. and the destination can be C:\ or A:\ or
walterl@chch.planet.co.nz, or the address of your web
pages.

While any third party might help this process along by
contributing a better component here or there, they will
need a symbiotic relationship with MS, to get anywhere --
and even then MS can copy them -- the Internet Explorer is
very like Netscape. . . .

My interest is not in the war aspect -- I don't care _who_
wins, but in the evolution aspect -- what will all this
mean for us, our lives, our psyche.

Email and hypertext are the phenomena that have transformed
my life -- and our collective psyche for many years to come
i think.  If we think of the effect printed type had on the
world, (all that change in the dominance of the senses etc.
that McLuhan speaks of etc, and the effects on war he
speaks of) then think of what this will do -- how it is
transforming the cultural pathways, and their microcosmic
equivalents in our head.

Will the linking of email with the web and with databases
of our discussions transform what we are doing here?

I am typing this on the bbs that i am phasing out, has the
move to the Internet  already made an inroad to who i am?
I think so.  As the laptop is without its connection I feel
bereft of my link to the world!  I am a creature who lives
in these two places -- and as my prothesis evolves i feel
the difference.  These wars affect me very directly . . . I
am more conscious of these than the physical ones around
the world -- they affect me less.

enough for now . . .

Walter

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)




From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Mar 11 17:09:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: What I have been up to
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 17:09:09 +1300 (NZDT)


Hi this had been takenb from a letter to a friend:

> Well I did the O thang,  but I bough ear plugs after the 1st night-he he ha!!
>   It was a mixed time really,  Dave Dobbyn was the best night,  the crowd
> was so hyped up,  shouting Dave Dave Dave.It got so damn hot the bouncers
> hosed us down & sloshed jug of water on to us,  I got driiping,  so did the
> girl who I was slow dancing with.Strange a complete stranger-I never got
> her name,  just couldin't help but rub & then I got more adventerous & she
> diddin't seem to mind, seemed to be enjoying it.Well we danced the whole
> night,  with my arms around her.But at the end we seperated for a couple of
> mins then when I found her again & walked beside her she said who the fuck
> are you-she was walking with anothe big guy-who gos Fuck off-so I wsa
> falber gasted rather astounded really,  but it was fun & I got over it
> pretty quick.
 I think I might not get quite so intimate with stangers at loud concerts,
their is just lust & the music & if shes drunk enuff perhaps casual sex-but
I don't think I want that,  No I'd rather no like & respect the girl.(I got
intimate touchy touchy with a girl then she basically told me to fuck off
when I meet her later outside-strange...)
  I had lots of other close encounters,  once a girl kissed & hugged me
then her guy freind wanted to do the same he even tryed to tango with
me-ytelch...
   I tryed body surfing at Bailter Space was spect up all over the place
tillI got to the edge and was dropped Hard onto the floor sore ass
fordays-still not quite right.

 Uni's been great,  the practical 3 hr drama class was brilliant we did
lots of exercises & games-name learning & trust.The trust was cool-we got
into a circle and one in the middle and they relaxed & fell back were
caught & moved around,  then raised shoulder height up into the air,  with
eyes closed & moved around the room,  spun around & lowered.Some of the big
guys were really heavy,  I was last & got spun around,  it was like crowd
surfing,  but ya could relax cause you could trust,  & coming down now that
was a weird cool twist of a sensation.
  + we have had the first rehersal for the play which was good,  I'm a male
nurse a balliff + in the chorus the play is called Rideing to Paris about a
woman,  a rebel & her fixing up a triumph motor bike,  it's cool.
  I also went to a party on saturday night,  1 one of the girls in the cast
Aiesha,  from Nelson incidentally,  I went to her hall,  salmond ( which
hall is Toby in?) & went too the party with her,  the party was for Eliza
mcmillan who was 19,  she also lived in Nelson & yet another Nelson girl is
Brook,  mmm,  she I quite liked,  curveous,  al though she said she got
drepressed at times & seemed to be hanging out for her loan to come through
so she could smoke gunge,   but she was still grovvy.I had cider got tipsy
and ate lovely home madew pizza + tryed  smokin through a bong although I
will not smoke till the holidays as are paranoid the Thc will block
thinking.The Guys & me also got dressed up in Eliza's dresses,  I got to
were lip stick, that was fun,  Brook even complimented me on the dress.I
ended up walking home with her,  to her flat,  then walikng even further.
  There are another couple of girls I am interested in-1 works at hoghts &
the other is in my theatre history & english,  shes lovely too,  oh well,
looks like I'm over Claire,  but I wsa quite tempted by the fantasy of
waking her uop at 12 am & saying can I come into your bed,  I wasi't drunk
enuff-nor would of though...
Wow that was a torent of stuff eh?
I think that you should come & stay with us in Dunedin when you have a
small break-like a wk or something?
Heres some bad news my grandmother has Lung cancer-I'm not supposed to know
though,  but she may last another 5 yrs.
  Oh well You guys that was some of what I been doing,  I'ts up ta u
whether your interested or not,  any comment welcome...

C You La8ter.... 8)




                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"










From hipbone@earthlink.net Wed Mar 13 10:58:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Summary: Game so far
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:58:13 -0800


Since the Game that Stephen and I are playing is in a temporary hiatus, I
thought I'd post a sort of short summary of how things have gone so far.

At the end of move 6, the board looks like this:

*

                          knife and wound
                                4
                              * |**
                            *   | ***
                          *     |  ****
                        *       |   *****
                      *         |    ******
                    *           |     *******
        peculiar people         |      ********
                2---------------|---------------6
              * | **            |        *******| *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
  *             |             [sword]*****  I awake: I see    *
1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10
  *             |             **|******    burning shadows,   *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
      three strange angels      |        *******| *
                3---------------|---------------7
                  *             |      ********
                    *           |     *******
                      *         |    ******
                        *       |   *****
                          *     |  ****
                            *   | ***
                       who...would hear me?
                                5

*

Remember that if the above image doesn't look like a neat square tipped up
on one corner, you are probably viewing it with a "variable spaced"
typeface, and need to convert it to a "monospaced" font such as Courier in
your word processor.  I recommend putting it into Courier 10 point type, as
12 point is too wide for some screens.

Assuming that you now have the board up and clearly visible, here's what's
going on:

*

Move One:

Stephen began the Game by playing in position three:

:: No, no, it is the three strange angels
:: Admit them, Admit them."

This is taken from a longer poem by DH Lawrence, called  "Song of a Man Who
Has Come Through".  The poem talks about "the wind that blows through me",
a wind which he hopes will carry him -- if he is keen and hard like the tip
of a wedge -- splitting "the rock" so that "the wonbder" will be revealed.
And then he hears a knocking and is at first fearful -- then realizes "it
is the three angels"...

Move Two:

The first move in a WaterBird Game sets the initial tone, obviously, but it
can't *connect* with any other moves.  The player who goes second has a
choice: s/he can move in a position that doesn't connect with the first
move, and set a very different tone, or s/he can move into a position which
does connect with the first, and establish some kind of link with it.

Since I didn't recognize the poem, I was working only with the exact words
that Stephen had quoted, and decided to play "a peculiar people" in
position 2.

I mentioned to Stephen that the phrase comes from I Peter 2: 9:

:: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,
:: a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him
:: who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

and said that at one point in my life, this particular verse had come to
mean the "hippies" for me, because we were a indeed"generation" -- famous
for it, in fact -- and a strange kind of freelance "priesthood", a "nation"
in the sense of Woodstock Nation, and perhaps the most *peculiar* bunch of
people you could hope to meet...

So my move "a peculiar people" carries a direct echo of Stephen's "strange
angels".

Move Three:

Stephen's next move was an image rather than a text -- the Game is
fundamentally a multi-media Game, and moves can be visual, musical, textual
or numerical -- and specifically the image of a sword, which he placed
smack dab in the center of the board, in position eight.

Move Four:

I couldn't figure out a direct association between Stephen's "sword" and my
"peculiar people", although the "sword of discrimination" can certainly
separate "darkness" from "light" -- but there is certainly at least one
instance of an angel carrying a sword -- the angel who guards the Garden of
Eden in Genesis has a fiery sword...  But by now, Stephen had posted the
rest of the DH Lawrence poem on which his first move was based, and it
reminded me of another "poet's wind" -- wind being a common metaphor for
inspiration -- the storm wind that was blowing around Castle Duino one day,
and which seemed almost to speak to him, giving him the first lines of his
magnificent long poem "The Duino Elegies":

:: Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels
:: hierarchies?

My move consisted of these two lines, but the poem continues:

::               and even if one of them pressed me
:: suddenly against his heart: I would be consumed
:: in that overwhelming existence. For beauty is nothing
:: but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure,
:: and we are so awed because it serenely disdains
:: to annihilate us. Every angel is terrifying.

This move, it seemed to me, fitted nicely in position five, linking with
"sword" somewhat indirectly, since the angel which "serenely disdains to
annihilate us" sounds very like the angel with the fiery sword -- and it's
certainly a "strange" angel when compared with the cute cherubs we see on
cards at Valentine's Day.

But the most interesting part of the linkage here, it seems to me, is that
between Lawrence's "wind that blows through me" and the wind that was
blowing at Duino when Rilke wrote his lines.

Move five:

Stephen, meanwhile, had posted a variety of associations that were relevant
to his own moves -- some material on sword fighting, a comment on the links
between DH Lawrence's reference to the Hesperides, with its golden apples,
and the Garden of Eden, with its forbidden fruit, and so forth.  And he
confirmed my sense that the sword was a "sword of discrimination", quoting
a Jungian author, Edinger, and a Gnostic Gospel, the Gospel of Thomas, to
the effect that the metaphorical sword of developing consciousness is that
which cuts a child free of a too great reliance on family, and allows him
or her to become a distinct and individual "person" in their own right...

Stephen then played the phrase "I awake: I see burning shadows" in position
nine.

Again, this seemed to me to be an evocative move.  Stephen's images, the
"strange angels", the "sword", the phrase "I awake: I see burning shadows",
all seem to have a peculiar intensity which I have tried to match with my
own moves -- it seems to me that it's this *intensity* which connects them
to the other positions on the board, not a particular set of logical
connections.

Move six:

And so I played... "knife and wound" in position four.  The phrase comes
from the recently released film, Mary Reilly, a retelling of the Jekyll and
Hyde story.  Towards the end of the film,  Dr Jekyll says:

:: You see, I always wanted to be both the knife and the wound.

I think that's an incredibly powerful image in its own right, and it brings
a slightly different twist to the Game -- since "Dr Jekyll / Mr Hyde" is
about a split personality, one half of whom is a killer.

So the "knife" in this case, though still symbolic, is demonic rather than
angelic...

That's our Game so far, and I hope this short summary will help make sense
of it.

To get the sense of the Game as a whole, imagine these various ideas -- the
"strange angels", the "peculiar people", the sword, the poet's cry to an
angel in the teeth of a gale, the awakening to "burning shadows", the knife
and wound -- as speaking to one another, each one clarifying, echoing or
denying the others linked to it along the lines of the board.  Glimpse, if
you will, not just the ideas themselves, but the ripples between them...

This is, as I said, a highly evocative Game, but clearly one which circles
around the issue of consciousness on the one hand, and the nature of the
unconscious processes on the other -- processes which have the power to
turn a man into an angel or a beast...

*

Stephen has signaled that he needs a few more days before resuming this
Game, and I have promised to post my response to his question:

> Charles: what do you mean by *lovely*?

either *as* my next move, or along *with* it...

Best wishes,



--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From xmeff@aol.com Thu Mar 14 13:44:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, . . .
From: xmeff@aol.com
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:44:45 -0500


Psyber folks,

>I'd enjoy any responses, and hope for the unknown effects they might
>inspire.

Ok.  So, here goes!

But first, a very significant question:
>What is humanness about?
Yes, how are we to deal with our humanness?
Perhaps, "as Jung put it, 'the antimonies are to be worked out.'" 

I will begin the work outside of the context of the structure of the
waterbird.  Sometimes, what causes pain may also be healing and I need to let
the animal in me out into the fresh light of day.
>"You see, I always wanted to be both the knife and the wound."

I will now amplify the associations in a different way by placing them in the
field of time, the late 1960's.  
RE:
>But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,
>a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath
>called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. (I Peter 2: 9)

What was going on at this time?  What events were culminating in that mythic
moment?

Naturally, when I think of the sixties I think of the music which, of course,
is produced by the vibration of air.  As a physical phenomena, we sense the
compression waves that are produced by the instruments.  Yet, music is not
only a physical phenomena, it moves our inner being.  Music touches our
feelings, our motivations.
RE:
>the Bora, one of the famous "maddening" winds, so that the link >between . .
.is not only between angels and angels, but also between >wind and wind...

Let us look at the juxtaposition of the two mega bands of that period, the
Rolling Stones and the Beatles.  There is a striking contrast between the
images these two bands projected.  In 1967 when the Beatles release their
Sgt. Pepper album, the Rolling Stones bring out Their Satanic Majesty's
Request.  At this time, the Beatles are still singing songs of love but
something dark is secretly brewing underneath it all.  In 1969 the Stones
release (whether consciously or otherwise) Let It Bleed as a perverse parody
on the title of the Beatles' Let It Be.  Then, during the Stones concert at
the Altamont Speedway, the Hell's Angels stab and kill a bystander.  The
Stones are indirectly responsible, having hired the bikers as concert
security.
RE:
"angels with swords"
>So the "knife" . . . is demonic rather than
>angelic...

But, it is not only the Stones in which the darkness appears.  The nation is
shocked by the Sharon Tate murders committed by the Manson "family".
RE:
>What is the knocking?
>What is the knocking at the door in the night?
>It is somebody who wants to do us harm.

I am especially reminded of the news footage of Squeaky Fromm and the other
two hippy girls, all of whom shaved their heads after Charles did.  They were
sitting on the sidewalk outside of the courthouse.
RE:
>No, no, it is the three strange angels
>Admit them, Admit them."

What was Manson's motive?  He explained that he was calling for a revolution,
a race war between blacks and whites which would culminate in the overthrow
of the white establishment.  Manson claimed to have heard messages in the
songs from the Beatles' 'White Album'.
RE:
>" Jesus said, 'Men think, perhaps that it is peace which I have come to
>cast upon the world. They do not know that it is dissension which I have
>come to cast upon the earth: fire, sword, and war." (Gospel of Thomas)
>"I came not to send peace, but a sword" (Matt 10: 34)

The spirit of the songs the Stones and the Beatles were singing are now
tainted with blood.  But, let's not stop with the Pied Piper just yet.  Janis
Joplin, Jimi Hendrix and Jim Morrison die within several months time in
drug-related deaths.  The real tragedy is that so many took drugs to be the
message and met their end prematurely.  

The Summer of Love, too, is gone.  Today, we see a different reality.  The
sexual revolution is followed 20 years later by the age of AIDs.
RE:
>"I awake: I see burning shadows"

How will the hippies redeem themselves?  How do we deal with the freedom they
advocated?  Freedom is that power that sets us apart.  We are angel-like in
the respect of being free agents.
RE:
>Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels hierarchies?

Yet, hope is not dead.  It certainly did not die out then.  The spacecraft,
Apollo, lands on the moon and a sense of wonder is resparked, a sense that
was experienced when the first person looked up at the skies.  
RE:
>Not I, not I, but the wind that blows through me!
>A fine wind is blowing the new direction of Time,
>If only I let it bear me, carry me, if only it carry me!...

>If only I am keen and hard like the sheer tip of a wedge
>Driven by invisible blows,
>The rock will split, we shall come at the wonder, we
>shall find the Hesperides,

BTW, the name of the game reminded me of the Beatles song, Norwegian Wood
(This Bird has Flown).  Why?  Because I always wonder, where is the bird in
the song?

John M.




From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sat Mar 16 22:48:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, . . .
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 09:48:09 GMT


Hi  John, Charles, All

Good to get the resume of the game Charles -- and the comments
from the side , from a fellow audience member, John.  

> the Altamont Speedway, the Hell's Angels stab and kill a bystander.  The
> Stones are indirectly responsible, having hired the bikers as concert
> security.
> RE:
> "angels with swords"
> >So the "knife" . . . is demonic rather than
> >angelic...

What a dark mood that mirrors for me . . . I feel despair . . .
perhaps it is that I was so idealistic in those times -- involved
in a community -- commune -- and in alternative education.  That
counter culture just flopped on me and so has the rest of the
left wing . . . in New Zealand we seem to be zooming to the
right, and I find it hard to find hope . . I don't really see it
in the Internet either -- although I do not see it as a bad thing
. . .

> The Summer of Love, too, is gone.  Today, we see a different reality.  The
> sexual revolution is followed 20 years later by the age of AIDs.

Yes . . . do I need to apologise for this indulgence in boomer
reminiscence?  These things have affected me personally . . . not
really ever finding the sort of loving freedom that was "in the
air" and later loosing my brother to aids.  

> >"I awake: I see burning shadows"

How does that line connect?

> How will the hippies redeem themselves?  How do we deal with the freedom they
> advocated?  Freedom is that power that sets us apart.  We are angel-like in
> the respect of being free agents.

For all my moving into this blue despairing reminiscing I don't
think I am cynical -- still searching, but tired . . .

As for the freedom -- I have a sense of awe for the "autonomous
psyche"  -- as if we are in the hands of a power . . . fractal
patterns unfolding. . . 

> >Not I, not I, but the wind that blows through me!
> >A fine wind is blowing the new direction of Time,
> >If only I let it bear me, carry me, if only it carry me!...
> 
> >If only I am keen and hard like the sheer tip of a wedge
> >Driven by invisible blows,
> >The rock will split, we shall come at the wonder, we
> >shall find the Hesperides,



> BTW, the name of the game reminded me of the Beatles song, Norwegian Wood
> (This Bird has Flown).  Why?  Because I always wonder, where is the bird in
> the song?

The "bird" he spent the night with, who was not there in the
morning?  

And the shaded parts of the board look like a bird -- 


Am I seeing something you are not?  


Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hipbone@earthlink.net Sun Mar 17 03:59:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: For beauty is
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 07:59:55 -0800


Walter:

In his comment on the Game, with its reference to the Sixties, John
mentions Altamont and Manson, and you write:

> What a dark mood that mirrors for me... I feel despair... perhaps
> it is that I was so idealistic in those times -- involved in a
> community -- commune -- and in alternative education.  That
> counter culture just flopped on me ... I find it hard to find hope..

Walter, let me tell you a story.

Ten or so years ago, I was at a dinner part where two of the other guests
were Gary Snyder, the poet -- he was Kerouac's friend, introduced him to
Buddhism, and figures in *Dharma Bums* as Japhy Ryder -- and Ken Wilber,
whose *Up from Eden* and other books contain a brilliant fusion of science
and spirituality.  Both men are long-time zen practitioners.

Snyder came up to Wilber at one point after the meal, and said, "I have
only one bone to pick with your zen, Wilber,", and Wilber asked what it
was.  "You think," Snyder replied, "that the Sixties were an experiment
that failed; I think they were the seed of something that may take five
hundred years to flower."

*

Browsing the web to verify the spelling of "Japhy Ryder" this morning, I
came upon the jacket copy Kerouac himself wrote for the original edition of
The Dharma Bums:

::  Dharma is the Sanskrit Word for Truth. It may also be translated
::  as The Duty, or The Law. The Dharma Bums is a surprising story
::  of two your Americans who make a goodhearted effort to know
::  the Truth with full packs on their backs, rucksack wanderers of
::  the West Coast, hiking and climbing mountains to go and
::  meditate and pray and cook their simple foods, and down below
::  living in shacks and sleeping outdoors under the California stars.

::  Although deeply religious they are also spirited human beings
::  making love to women, relishing poetry, wine, good food, joyful
::  campfires, nature, travel and friendship. The hero is young Japhy
::  Ryder, poet, mountaineer, logger, Oriental scholar and dedicated
::  Zen Buddhist, who teaches his freight-hopping friend Ray Smith
::  the Way of the Dharma Bums and leads him up the mountain
::  where the common errors of this world are left far below and a
::  new sense of pure material kinship is established with earth and
::  sky. Yet it is the ancient Way of all the wild prophets of the past,
::  whether St. John the Baptist in the West or the holy old Zen
::  Lunatic Hanshan in the East. Japhy and Ray adventure in the
::  mountains and on the trails, and then they come swinging down
::  to the city of San Francisco to teach what they have learned, but
::  the city will not listen. "Yabyum" orgies, suicide, jazz, wild
::  parties, hitch hiking, love affairs, fury and ignorance result, but
::  the Truth Bums always return to the solitude and peaceful lesson
::  of the wilderness.

::  In this new novel, Jack Kerouac departs from the "hipster"
::  movement of the Beat Generation and leads his readers towards a
::  conception of "continual conscious compassion" and a peaceful
::  understanding truce with the paradox of existence.

::  The Dharma itself can never be seen, but is felt in this book. It is
::  the strangest of tales, yet an honest, vigorous account depicting
::  an exciting new Way of Life in the midst of modern despair. The
::  rolling pages of the novel are filled with original descriptions of
::  the High Sierras, the High Cascades, the Northwest, the South,
::  the desert, and the American road. There is also an account of the
::  night of the birth of the San Francisco Poetry Renaissance.

::  Through these pages pass hoboes, blondes, truckdrivers, poets,
::  hunters, Negro preachers, Mexicans, librarians, hound dogs,
::  children, janitors, forest rangers, loggers, cowboys and Zen
::  thinkers in a bewildering and delightful veriety as the story races
::  true to life to its conclusion.

::  Read slowly and see.

*

Maybe the moral of Snyder's remark to Wilber could be formulated as "live
slowly and see"...

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From xmeff@aol.com Sun Mar 17 06:49:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror . . .
From: xmeff@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 13:49:27 -0500


Walter,
You said:
>What a dark mood that mirrors for me . . .

Was it the 'right' thing?  Rilke's line (the header of this message)
suggested this angle.  It was harsh but it felt 'right' to introduce some of
the darkness and I don't think it was exclusively my own darkness but
something of the collective.

My way of participating in the game was to read some of Rilke's work in The
Selected Poetry of Rainer Maria Rilke (edited and translated by Stephen
Mitchell, Random House, New York, 1982).  In the notes that accompany the
Duino Elegies there is a letter from Rilke to the Countess Margot
Sizzo-Noris-Crouy, dated April 12, 1923.  And this is what I found:  

" Whoever does not, sometime or other, give his full consent, his full and
joyous consent, to the dreadfulness of life, can never take possession of the
unutterable abundance and power of our existence; can only walk on its edge,
and one day, when the judgment is given, will have been neither alive nor
dead.  To show the identity of dreadfulness and bliss, these two faces on the
same divine head, indeed this one single face, which just presents itself
this way or that, according to our distance from it or the state of mind in
which we perceive it--:  this is the true significance and purpose of the
Elegies and the Sonnets to Orpheus." (p. 317, The Selected Poetry of Rainer
Maria Rilke)

So, there it is . . .

More to follow.

John M.




From xmeff@aol.com Sun Mar 17 08:05:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: For beauty is . . .
From: xmeff@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 15:05:32 -0500


Charles,

>Maybe the moral of Snyder's remark to Wilber could be formulated as >"live
slowly and see"...

 . . . "Live fully and see."  Of course, Kerouac also died young (47).

I am reminded of the ending of Easy Rider, the freedom of the road dying by a
shotgun blast.  I suppose that midnight classic is, by now, almost a
caricature of the hippy ideal.  However, let's look at beginnings and
endings, how the movie parallels the era to an extent.  There is an youthful,
adventurous, open beginning.  (There is also the acceptance of the undertone
of drug smuggling.  The drug is marijuana which is symbolic in itself of
newfound freedom.  The sharing of the smoke could be considered as a communal
ritual.)

Two set off on an archetypal journey eastward to the underbelly of America as
represented by New Orleans during Mardi Gras.  I think of the contrast
between the carnival of life and that scene represented in the graveyard,
where there are glimpses of death to come.  It did seem as if the Sixties
abruptly ended, punctuated by violent events.  The end was inherent in the
attitude of freedom that was engendered.

Now, I am beginning to despair.  Perhaps, freedom is only a belief and not
one necessarily destined to live forever. 

>"You think," Snyder replied, "that the Sixties were an experiment
>that failed; I think they were the seed of something that may take five
>hundred years to flower."

Maybe that flower was the Sixties, the seed having its beginning in among
other things, the Renaissance and the Hermetic Tradition.  The attitude
prevalence in the Sixties was an outward expression of the underlying
rhizome, the perennial philosophy that is ever present.

I don't see the comparison as being an experiment to be performed once and
for all.  That view in itself is too mechanistic.  I would rather think the
comparison is organic.  The flower does overripen, putrifies and decays.  A
corruption of the body occurs.

I am curious.  What was Wilber's reply?

John M.




From xmeff@aol.com Sun Mar 17 08:07:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, . . .
From: xmeff@aol.com
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 1996 15:07:22 -0500


Walter,

>> . . . fractal patterns unfolding. . .

The fractal patterns are an outcome of the reiteration of information through
a mathematical function.  The process of generating fractal patterns provides
a 'new' metaphor that implies the hidden complexity and intricate connections
that arise out of simple beginnings.  Hollywood leapt on this process whereby
an alternate reality can be better simulated as the real thing.

>>"I awake: I see burning shadows"

The line made me think of how AIDs destroys the body or rather how the body
destroys itself.  There is so much more in that simple line.

>. . . do I need to apologise for this indulgence in boomer reminiscence?
 >These things have affected me personally . . . not really ever finding the
>sort of loving freedom that was "in the air" and later loosing my brother
>to aids.  

(silent pause) . . . No.  I outline the 'why' for my comments in another
post.  Now, that I think of it, the Summer of Love, refers not only to the
free love but also to the attitude of accepting others as they are.  To this,
you mentioned community.
 
>For all my moving into this blue despairing reminiscing I don't
>think I am cynical -- still searching, but tired . . .

Walter, I keep thinking of the word, tempered, as in a red-hot metal that is
plunged into a vat of cold spring water and tepid urine.  That's a strange
image, isn't it?  You can almost hear it sizzle, see the steam rise, and
smell the stench.

I think of a particular sword, one that is a marriage of soft and hard
metals.  I think of how the sword is made by sheathing one part within the
other.  I think of the heating, the hammering, and the attitude the sword
maker assumes toward his goal.

> . . .the rest of the left wing . . . 

Nice!  Birds and wings.

>>BTW, the name of the game reminded me of the Beatles song, >>Norwegian Wood
(This Bird has Flown).  Why?  Because I always >>wonder, where is the bird in
the song?

>The "bird" he spent the night with, who was not there in the
>morning?

Songs can take a life of their own in our minds.  This song in particular
generates an almost numinous quality.  It is a beautiful song, one of my
favorites.  I suspected that the bird in the song was the woman that had
beckoned him to spend a night.  The woman is a unseen presence like a
thought.  Thank you, Walter.  I needed that confirmation.

Maybe I should try to keep things simple and not read too many hidden
meanings in things . . . like Manson did.  Yet, there still seems to be
something there even if it isn't readily apparent.  Didn't the BBC restrict
this song because the authorities suspected that somehow it was connected to
drug use?  Or, did the censors see something that wasn't there?

>As for the freedom -- I have a sense of awe for the "autonomous >psyche"  --
as if we are in the hands of a power . . .

The type of thinking or involvement that finds (or invents) connections
though being innocent at first can easily transform from benign to malignant.

>>Not I, not I, but the wind that blows through me!
>>A fine wind is blowing the new direction of Time,
>>If only I let it bear me, carry me, if only it carry me!... 

The wind to me is a sense of wonder, a spirit if you will.  Thus, the journey
to the moon where it is said the dead reside.  We went and we returned.  One
could say that this journey away from the earth was a journey to find
ourselves.  "Ye shall be as gods," said the serpent to the woman (Genesis
3:5; see also John 10:34).  The fire of the gods is our ability to create
meaning and reality out of dreams.

I see you take the lines in a somewhat different way, as a spirit
nevertheless, but almost as an informing spirit or soul that prevades or
underlies our material existence.

How do others interpret these lines?

>Am I seeing something you are not?

Just trying to add to the pot.  Has Stephen taken care of his business enough
to resume the game?

John M.




From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sun Mar 17 19:36:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror . . .
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 07:36:05 GMT


John and all,

> >What a dark mood that mirrors for me . . .
> 
> Was it the 'right' thing?  Rilke's line (the header of this message)
> suggested this angle.  It was harsh but it felt 'right' to introduce some of
> the darkness and I don't think it was exclusively my own darkness but
> something of the collective.

The darkness mirrors the mood I am in, which I don't enjoy.  Yet
I love darkness to be _seen_.  I hate the feeling of being
helpless, depressed, but more than anything I hate it being
unseen, distorted or denied.  It really is no accident that in
this Psybernet list we face it like this.  The idea is that we
explore the _depth_ psychology of the Internet.  Is there light
in the depth?  The World _Wide_ Web is all light and glitter and
_surface_ . . .  yet under there is all the darkness of our
culture -- the greed, the pornography, the abuse, and most of all
the difficulty of relating, the struggle to do that thing that
Charles has been speaking of -- peace love freedom -- simple but
seemingly unreachable ideals from the 60s.  

So are you "right" -- I don't know . . .  you answer that one.  

In this list there is occasionally a wonderful contrast between
the old boomers and the young.  Miles, Josh, Tama -- they don't
seem to live in this world where these old ideals seem beaten and
lost.  They seem to carry, with ease and unconsciously some of
the spirit I have lost or never had.  

> Selected Poetry of Rainer Maria Rilke  

You quote from a letter:


> " Whoever does not, sometime or other, give his full consent, his full and
> joyous consent, to the dreadfulness of life, can never take possession of the
> unutterable abundance and power of our existence; can only walk on its edge,
> and one day, when the judgment is given, will have been neither alive nor
> dead.  To show the identity of dreadfulness and bliss, these two faces on the
> same divine head, indeed this one single face, which just presents itself
> this way or that, according to our distance from it or the state of mind in
> which we perceive it--:  this is the true significance and purpose of the
> Elegies and the Sonnets to Orpheus." (p. 317, The Selected Poetry of Rainer
> Maria Rilke)
> 
> So, there it is . . .

Sure is . . . I have left your quote there in full . . . as Steve
the hoon said . . . if nothing else comes from this game it will
be the introduction to Rilke for me.  The game offers heaps and
Rilke is a good part of that.

In this virtual music of ideas we are having a virtual opera of
light and dark . . .  

we are a bunch of strange angels indeed!

and in my black mood I feel love for you all!


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sun Mar 17 19:36:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: For beauty is
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 07:36:11 GMT


Hi  Charles

> Walter, let me tell you a story.

what a delight . . .

"You think," Snyder replied, "that the Sixties were an experiment
> that failed; I think they were the seed of something that may take five
> hundred years to flower."

This goes right to my core . . . in this mood I am in (which I am
ashamed of and feel I should not speak of here, and do so
reluctantly, though I know it is really ok)  I was reviewing
these countercultural initiatives in my life . . . ( the first
half of it anyway :-)   and seeing nothing but the pain.  For
example the commune which still exists and where one group is now
taking the other half to court to fight over the assets!  ( I got
involved again after 20 yrs to try and avoid such shit. )  The
person I was confiding in said:  They were good projects, many
good things came out of all that . . . they are nothing to be
ashamed of . . .

yet I am ashamed!  It is only a feeling . . . but that is how I
feel . . . mainly because I see the seed as a dark seed.  500 yrs
to be sure, but what will grow out of this?  

I am still grappling with this . . . in my work as a
psychotherapist there is the constant work on the edge -- I have
come to see the edge as a zone -- like a tidal zone -- where all
the life is.  The countercultural stuff (maybe that was one
strand only of the whole of the hippy generation) seems to have
gone beyond the zone into the sea -- and understandably so as the
50s people were so far out upon the dry land.



> Browsing the web to verify the spelling of "Japhy Ryder" this morning, I
> came upon the jacket copy Kerouac himself wrote for the original edition of
> The Dharma Bums:

I don't know what year it was but I recall reading the book,
probably slowly but because I was still a poor reader! around the
time it came out -- there was already a thirst in me then . . .
I had a good friend who introduced me to it . . . we developed an
ethos, summed up in a couple organisational development slogans

good/hard

truth or peace?   (we chose truth)

don't give up.     (ie don't join the rat race -- we were not
even in a position to drop out -- this was a way of not getting
into it -- and I don't think I ever have).

My friend died in a car crash aged 23 -- I felt like I had to
carry this ethos alone -- and also that he might have "given in"
if he had lived, and that would have been even harder.


> ::  Dharma is the Sanskrit Word for Truth. It may also be translated
> ::  as The Duty, or The Law. The Dharma Bums is a surprising story
[snip]

> ::  true to life to its conclusion.
> 
> ::  Read slowly and see.

Thanks for sharing this wonderful result of your web browsing.

> Maybe the moral of Snyder's remark to Wilber could be formulated as "live
> slowly and see"...

And of course it is your comment to me . . .  and most welcomed .
. .  I live to fast . . .  thank you 


Walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hipbone@earthlink.net Mon Mar 18 06:05:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Snyder, Wilber, Sixties, Roses...
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:05:43 -0800


John and Walter:

I'm quoting Snyder as telling Wilber:

::  "You think," Snyder replied, "that the Sixties were an experiment
::  that failed; I think they were the seed of something that may take
::  five hundred years to flower."

*

John:

> I am curious.  What was Wilber's reply?

I was at the far end of the table, and didn't hear it.  And the story
remains with me because it had, in the moment, an integrity which didn't
*need* a response from Wilber to resonate with me.  But once the question
of Wilber's response is raised like this, I do have some expectations.
That the pair of them talked for a while.  That given that it was Wilber's
*zen* that Snyder was attacking, I'll bet Wilber was on his toes and
dancing.  That it was "dharma combat"...

But you should picture Wilber as very tall and very thin indeed, wearing an
outrageous multicolored jacket with huge shoulder pads, long snaky arms
extending to all directions while he dazzles with his multiple ideas, and
Snyder shorter, stockier, quieter, slower, the epitome of *grounded*...
lightning and the grounded...

*

Walter comments:

> I see the seed as a dark seed.  500 yrs to be sure, but what will
> grow out of this?

John:

> The flower does overripen, putrifies and decays.  A corruption of
> the body occurs.

One view of the "innocence" of the Sixties and subsequent "fall" would be
that it's an example of *enantiodromia*, the process by which a thing
becomes its opposite.

Another that we're witnessing a "puer" generation growing up: and as with
"puer" transformations in general, some "puer" refuses to grow up, and thus
remains one-sided and unreal, some "puer" cracks and whiplashes into its
opposite, thus becoming embittered and unimaginative -- and some "puer"
adds its complementary yet doesn't lose its own essence, and thus grows...

John:

> Maybe that flower was the Sixties, the seed having its beginning
> in among other things, the Renaissance and the Hermetic
> Tradition.

The sense in which the Sixties are a "flourishing" of the Hermetic
Tradition is a perennialist sense, and the Tradition itself is a "hardy
perennial" -- so it flowers ever and again... Snyder was I think looking
toward the *next* flowering, and maybe suspected Wilber was regretting the
passing of the *previous* one...  though I'm putting words in his mouth,
ideas in his head...

John:

> The type of thinking or involvement that finds (or invents)
> connections though being innocent at first can easily transform
> from benign to malignant.

There's the enantiodromia again, lucidly expressed.  And Wilber has done
more than anyone -- with his definition of the "pre / trans fallacy" -- to
allow us to distinguish between the pre-rational which so easily turns
malignant, and the trans-rational which remains a blessing.

But again, the eye that sees the enantiodromia (in a person or a movement)
is watching what happens to an organism over time, how an ideal is
assimilated, etc (sociology, psychology) while the eye that sees the
recurrence of authentic gnosis across centuries and civilizations has a
longer focal length...  and is watching the ideal itself, perennial
(mystical theology, philosophy).

A physical, "common or garden" rose, in other words, is the enactment of
both Blake's "O Rose thou art sick" and Dante's "rosa sempiterna", "eternal
rose"...

*

John:

> The attitude prevalence in the Sixties was an outward expression
> of the underlying rhizome, the perennial philosophy that is ever
> present.

Put those words "rhizome" and "perennial" into one sentence like that, and
you inevitably remind me of James Olney's book, *The Rhizome and the
Flower: The Perennial Philosophy -- Yeats and Jung* (Berkeley, UC Press,
1980).

You know it?

My best to one and all,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From xmeff@aol.com Mon Mar 18 08:33:07 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror . . .
From: xmeff@aol.com
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:33:07 -0500


Psyber folks,

> . . . if nothing else comes from this game it will
>be the introduction to Rilke for me.

Thanks for the gift.  It enriches my life.

>In this list there is occasionally a wonderful contrast between
>the old boomers and the young.  Miles, Josh, Tama -- they don't
>seem to live in this world where these old ideals seem beaten and
>lost.  They seem to carry, with ease and unconsciously some of
>the spirit I have lost or never had.

Rebelliousness without the anger.  Where does this spirit come from?  Books,
movies, living memory?  As free expression of youthfulness?

Phrases.  A common phrase from the Sixties was 'generation gap'.  I don't see
that so much here.

"We're livin' in the Nineties, brother, . . . the Net Age:  across imaginary
borders, cutting through barriers of age, race, culture, and sex.  Here we
come, millennium!"

>The World _Wide_ Web is all light and glitter and
>_surface_ . . .  yet under there is all the darkness of our
>culture -- the greed, the pornography, the abuse, and most of all
>the difficulty of relating, the struggle to do that thing that
>Charles has been speaking of -- peace love freedom -- simple but
>seemingly unreachable ideals from the 60s.

True.

I'm turned off by people who advocate the hippy fashion but only pay lip
service to its ideals; the hypocrisy of the tie-dyed in their Mercedes who
denounce the evils of capitalism, but are actually enmeshed in consumerism;
especially the upper middle class young who want to resurrect the Sixties in
their own image, an image usually obtained from Hollywood and other icons of
pop culture.

I also express loathing for the manufactured, pseudo-angst of the
Romper-stompers, the skinheads who felt dispossessed during the late
70's-late 80's, the punk backlash to reclaim youth from the long hair era.

I have these feelings for all poseurs . . . for appearances without
conviction, if that is what I see.

>we are a bunch of strange angels indeed!

Some thoughts want to break free from the universe of ethereal things and
rejoin the living, to experience the world in its material aspect, to feel
with a body the sensual manifestations, to live and breathe, to reproduce.

I am a liar.  I am a honest man.  I am a good man.  I am a criminal.

Words to close by:

"In all nature monstrous things sometimes appear, because of the imagination
of the movers [of the heavenly spheres] above.  The intelligences that move
the spheres cannot in one way direct one motion or another except by seizing
upon particular things; and this seizure is called 'imagination' after the
'image' that is formed in the sensitive soul of living things.  But in
practice everything that is created is already existent in the thoughts of
the movers of the starry spheres.  All the material in things that can be
produced obeys the mover, just as our bodies obey our souls.  We, too, have
our own feelings so that when we think of some form or other our bodies are
stirred with delight, or horror, or aversion."
--Avicenna, the Arab philosopher

The theme?  Well . . . 

John M.




From hoon@apk.net Mon Mar 18 08:58:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: optimism, not idealism
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:58:42 -0500 (EST)


Greetings,

What a turn the game has taken *between* moves! John has brought light into
the darkness and, yes, made the shadows burn.

My response is enrichened by what came into the game's space during the
hiatus, as it must be. This raises several questions.

*

First is a rather dry one: how does the process of the game deal with the
conundrum of contingency?

For example, if I had made my next move post haste would John have posted
identical, different, no response to the game? Philosophically regarded,
the question is very difficult to answer. How far are we able to reduce
cause and effect to find the points at which events are not contingent?

The sneeze here in Cleveland altering the response in New Zealand? The
neuronal firing in my head; the collapse of the quantum wave amongst the
multitude of 'collapsing' within Charles's consciousness in Los Angeles...

Who's to say? But, contingency is not easily dealt with in any case. Still,
we observe *as, if* reasoning all the time. The clearest example is the
sports announcer who might say how "Bob's home run would have been a two
run homer had not Tom struck out in the at bat before..." But, would Bob
have hit the home run had Tom got on base?

The web of cause and effect is not simply deconstructed. Obviously my move,
no matter when I had decided on it, takes on a different nature in the
atermath of the contribution of Charles, John, and Walter in the past ten
days.

The web of contingency is part of the nature of our game: but who's to say
how large or small it really is.

**

The association of "burning shadows" with AIDS disturbs me but also brings
the intended MOVE into the here and now.

Often I have discussed with persons 15+ years younger about the differences
in sexual practice of the 'hippy' era with what really is the AIDS era. How
the birth control pill defined an era in the late sixties and early
seventies; then after women recoiled from the high doses and their being
experimented upon, how IUD's and diaphragms defined another ensueing era;
but all those years being defined by the men of my generation and CLASS not
ever giving much thought to what birth control was about or really
concerned.

Then there is the dissonance of my experience a few years ago while I was
dating a gal who put us on the periphery of her group of gay male friends.
Despite the deaths and dying that was the central fact of the group's
reality, the majority of men, when asked, reported to me they did not
practice safe sex.

Out of what shadow does this death wish come? Why did I feel so
uncomfortable knowing that only fifteen years previously we our
hetero-selves had had precisely the same attitude? And, we had felt it
liberating and evidence of our sexual freedom...

How naive.

***

The Rilke quote:

>To show the identity of dreadfulness and bliss, these two faces on the
>same divine head, indeed this one single face, which just presents itself
>this way or that, according to our distance from it or the state of mind in
>which we perceive it--

expresses as well as Jung did, the archetypal reality through which
individuation occurs. What would be the shadow of bliss? The identification
with our goodness, the identification of unity to the exclusion of
disunity, (or polarity,) the usurpation of the realm of the Gods by our
limited consciousness,
etc.

But with this we are perhaps back at level of sword play, discrimination.
The confrontation with our capacity for good and evil are the two sides of
the shadow work I feel.

Rilke, as Jung did too, wisely indicates the working out of dread and
bliss, their ongoing integration in Jungian terms, is somehow dependent on
distance and state of mind.

This itself may be related back to my suggestions about the state of mind
of the swordsman, and the peculiar person who is attempting to individuate.

****

The Jeckyl and Hyde bifurcation aptly speaks of the two sides. The knife
and the wound is, for me, another way of describing our fallen status. But
we fall by our nature and by our individual histories, do we not?

*****

The idealism of the hippy era was, for me, just the beginning of an
unconscious and long-lived inflation. The experimentation with
psychedelics, the dabbling in meditation, the aggressive, (as in:
passive-aggressive,) pursuit of systematic knowledge about the nature of
reality, the twenty year addiction to marijuana, the immersion in music,
the identification with mysticism, and the posturing (!) was my act of
representing eden to myself.

It set me up for the fall and put the sword in my hand.

*****

Oddly, as much as despair might be part of the picture for me, the end game
of my inflation was, upon returning to my hometown of Cleveland, watching
my fraternal twin brother, (who said to me: "Jesus carries a sword!",)
attempt to kill himself numerous times until he was successful on
Valentine's Day in 1993.

The dreadfulness outside lit the shadow inside and those shadows started to
burn.

******

Optimism then, not idealism. Our parts are small perhaps, in this game and
that game.

*******

My MOVE follows on the heals of this message. My gratitude to all who are
playing with this heavy and deep game with their sincerest intention and
direct expressions of being.

I'm in awe.

Stephen


PS: the URL with the commentary is:
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG3.html











From hoon@apk.net Mon Mar 18 08:58:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: Move 7
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:58:51 -0500 (EST)


Stephen plays MOVE 7 in position 7:

[a song: "Aj ondas que eu vin veer" / Waves that I came to see]

***

Technical information:

I have posted a link in the body of the game's web page to two sound files
in AIFF format.

The larger file is the complete song, approximately 1.1mb download and
playable on any MacIntosh or Windows machine, as long as the latter has a
sound player that can play AIFF format files. The smaller file is a 450k
excerpt. Both files are 8bit recordings sampled at 11khz to keep the file
sizes smaller than the 2mb 22khz sampled source. (Please email me if you
need help with this sound download.)

The fidelity will be mediocre.

***

The song's lyrics:

Waves that I came to see,
Ah waves say unto me

Why my lover lingers away from me?

O waves that ebb and swell,
Will you not to me tell

Why my lover lingers away from me?

***

The troubador Martin Codax wrote this song in the 13th century. Within the
simple lyrics of such songs the secrets of the feminine aspect of
Christianity were hidden and sent into the courts of western Europe. In the
Cantigas de Amigo there is a general echo of Rilke's cliff walk for the
idea behind the song is to
"convey the wistful thoughts of a Gallego girl as she looks out to sea and
pines for her lover who is far from the shores..."

[The note is quoted from the liner notes of the recording I used: Bella Domna;
The Medieval Woman: Lover, Poet, Patroness, Saint, performed by Sinfonye;
issue: Hypoerion CD 66283]

***

John has alluded to the question of the body. This reverberates throughout
our culture as a collective problematic and is also apparent in any study
of the fact of historical Gnosticism and later Alchemy, and, btw, is part
and parcel of an internet social phenomena, which is the urge toward
"immortalism" expressed by the Extropian community.

***

Thus we return to the undeniable fact of the sword which may cut us in many
ways, but, finally, in the ebb and flow of our life may cut us in ways
irrevocable, of course, terminal.

One reason why our memories of the counterculture are not apt to be fond.

***

Yet, finally, it is our ability to deal with the ebb and flow of our lives
that allows us a realistic idealism, and again, as John implies, is what
tempers the alloy of the sword.

Stephen

***

The board after MOVE 7:



*

                          knife and wound
                                4
                              * |**
                            *   | ***
                          *     |  ****
                        *       |   *****
                      *         |    ******
                    *           |     *******
        peculiar people         |      ********
                2---------------|---------------6
              * | **            |        *******| *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
     *          |           ****|*******      **|           *
   *            |             [sword]*******I awake: I see    *
1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10
  *             |             **|******    burning shadows,   *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
      three strange angels      |        *******| *
               3----------------|------[a song: waves that
                *                          I came to see]
                  *             |      ********
                    *           |     *******
                      *         |    ******
                        *       |   *****
                          *     |  ****
                            *   | ***
                       who...would hear me?
                                5

*

Your move, Charles...


xalam,

Stephen

PS: the URL is: http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG4.html







From hoon@apk.net Mon Mar 18 08:58:56 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: PLG: move 7 amplification
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:58:56 -0500 (EST)



The synchronicity in this game is startling. I planned this move long ago,
partly as a response to my friend Judith reacting to the game after move 4,
by telling me:

"This is a man thing with the the sword stuff and solitary stormy walks..."

Then, John writes last week:

>Songs can take a life of their own in our minds.  This song in particular
>generates an almost numinous quality.  It is a beautiful song, one of my
>favorites.  I suspected that the bird in the song was the woman that had
>beckoned him to spend a night.  The woman is a unseen presence like a
>thought.

***

The song posted as move 7 is from the early 14th century. It comes toward
the end of an era during which the unseen presence had reappeared and
flowered. Later, 'Archetypal historians' interpreted this appearance of the
feminine in the 13th and early 14th centuries as the collective
compensation necessary to the Saturnian development of Pauline Christianity
and was coincident to the heretical syncretism and neo-Platonism of Islam
in Andalusia, North Africa, and the Middle East, itself, perhaps, a similar
reaction to the codification and extension of Islamic law.

***
.
Yet, the peculiar people did not make themselves popular. The gnostic
impulse of Christianity, expressed by the transmission of Bogomil
syncretism into the rural, illiterate communities of the Cathars, comes
under fire, and literally, at the end, the Prefects jump into the fire. The
Albingensian crusades and later inquisitions attempt to put the sword to
all that is not acceptable to the already corrupt orthodoxy of
Christianity. Both Augustine and Aquinas will rationalize...<grin>...and
the secret will become unseen and unlived until the alchemists revisit it.

***

http://marlowe.wimsey.com:80/~rshand/streams/gnosis/cathar.html
http://freethought.tamu.edu:80/freethought/joseph_mccabe/religious_controver
sy/chapter_22.html#4
http://www.nada.kth.se:80/~nv91-asa/Mage/gnostics.html
http://www.webcom.com/%7Egnosis/consolamentum.html
http://www.clas.ufl.edu:80/anthro/cyberanthro/Gutenberg_Galaxy.html
http://www.tagsys.com:80/Ads/SpaceBetween/Occult.html
http://hoshi.cic.sfu.ca/~derry/A/poetry.html

***

As the story goes, the Cathars jump from the castle walls into the fires
set below. (See picture on the web site.) This immolation is an act of
glorification, is it not? And, an expression of the feminine sacrifice on
behalf of the ideal, of the individual's ideals.

***

In our modern day culture we see the sword everywhere. Some, in their
inflation, even remark that AIDS is God's punishment. Others wish for the
ideal of the family with the mother at home, the father at work, meanwhile
the truth of such ideals is how the children and the elderly mothers and
fathers are treated, which is very poorly, here in the 'richest' country in
the world.

On the internet the censors wish to purge the network of indecent language
and one wonders about something being in descent and in darkness behind
this impulse...and what might fire the shadows.

***

But, is not the 'ebb and flow' of the so-called perennial ideals their
becoming hidden, revealed, seen, unseen, and seen again, through the hard
work and burning away of the dross involved in individuation? And, is not
feminine discrimination perhaps the secret to mastery of the sword? ;-)

Stephen






From xmeff@aol.com Tue Mar 19 15:28:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Snyder, Wilber, Sixties, Roses...
From: xmeff@aol.com
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:28:24 -0500


Charles,

>you inevitably remind me of James Olney's book, *The Rhizome and >the
Flower: The Perennial Philosophy -- Yeats and Jung* (Berkeley, UC
>Press,1980).

>You know it?

No, but the title sounds familiar to those of other books I've read.  Perhaps
sometime in the future. . .

John M.





From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Wed Mar 20 13:49:14 1996
To: Psyber-L
Subject: == Welcome to Psyber-L! ==
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 01:49:14 GMT

Hi,

What follows is a first draft of the new welcome file that gets
sent to people as they sub to this list.  It wont happen just
yet, but it will when I move the list -- in the next week or so.
( you should hardly notice a thing.) 








Subject:  == Welcome to Psyber-L! ==



Hi,
You are now on the Psybernet Mailing List,  I am pleased to
welcome you aboard.  Let me introduce you to the list.  At the
time I am writing this,  20 March, 1996, there are about 45
people on the list . . . the traffic is at the rate of about 15
messages per week.  For those who are involved and interested it
is an important place.  

During the last few weeks we have been playing a game in the
"Glass Bead" tradition.  A complex phenomena introduced to the
list by Charles Cameron.  You can catch up on the game at 

http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG4.html

where Stephen the other player, has been keeping an archive of
it.   

During these same weeks people have shared dreams and stories
from their life -- I have a sense that for some the work here is
an important and vital part of out life -- that is the case for
me, as both participant and facilitator on this list.

== Facilitation ==
I see this as an important role for lists like this.  It is
different from moderating or list-owning, though there is a
connection.  I have been at it here since the start, and I do it
in my own style.  There is very little of a formal nature, yet I
know I have an influence here via my presence.  One thing I do
regularly is post the list "Description"  it has slowly evolved
and no doubt will do so in the future.  It does provide a guide
for what we do on this list.  

This welcome too will keep changing and I will post it to the
list as it does!  

I appreciate feedback on all of this . . . and am even willing to
change (on rare occasions).

== Psybernet ==
This list is part of a larger project that has been evolving
since 1992- 93.  Realising at that time that email groups and
instant global communication was about to leap upon us, I wanted
to make a place for individual and group, in depth, psychotherapy
on the net.  

That is still the vision, with one difference:  We are not
transposing the material world methodology of psychotherapy, into
this medium.  We are in a new medium and hence experientially
exploring what is possible here.  We learn by being here how this
is affecting our psyche.   The structural elements of
psychotherapy -- time, money, place -- are all vastly different
here . . . we are learning.

Psychotherapy and counselling for some of us on this list is our
profession.  I hope that we can establish a professional niche
here -- both with "clients" and with colleagues who also wish to
practice some form of depth psychological individual and group
work on the net.

Topics related to this theme are highly relevant for this list.
Some headway has been made, there have been useful discussions on
the archetypal forces at work related to "net", "wide", personal
id, gender, and anonymity.  Much more can be done . . .

== Psybernet Small Groups ==
One form that has been used here (while the Psybernet & the list
was still exclusively on the BBS) was to have a small, time
limited, group with a fixed number of people who pay a fee, and a
facilitator.  This is more or less transposing group
psychotherapy onto the net.  The experiments are not over . . .
and another one of these groups is being planned.  

== Past and Future ==
I am writing this welcome in preparation for the move from using
the BBS ( a DOS  machine in New Zealand) as a list server, to
having the list distributed via L-soft's Home Ease system in the
US (somewhere?).  This small change will bring some newness to
the list.  One thing is that it will be more visible and faster
-- also as it will be less expensive to run and more stable, some
wider promotion of the list is possible.  Change is in the air .
. .

== Some Possibilities ==
Sharing what we experince here in the moment -- the phenomenology
of the screen -- 

Collaboration to establish viable depth psychological Internet
theory and practice . . . that grows out of our _life_ here.

Supervision of our work on the net.

Virtual Authenticity  -- this becomes a place where we learn who
we can trust in this medium via the medium, not via such things
as credentials from the material world.  (perhaps they just don't
quite apply here?)

Developing related lists -- closed, open, by invitation . . .
this is happening  in that there are some of us here on both this
list and the Aion Reading Group list.  There is some cross over
too with the Group Psychotherapy list and NetDynamics.  A small
crossover with Future Culture -- a list I still have some
affinity for though have not subbed to it for a while.  

Would you like me to list your home page in this welcome?

A FAQ?

                     *        *        *       *

WELCOME!  Participate, by lurking (reading) or writing, but
please unsubscribe if this is not for you!  

You should have received a more technical email about the
listserv that runs this list.  Look at the instructions there to
make your life easier here, but make sure you know these:

The email address for this list ( to write to all the PEOPLE) is:


(Now)
psyber-L@link.southern.co.nz 


(soon) 
PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM 


To set options (to the MACHINE) write to


(Now)
listserv@link.southern.co.nz 
eg unsub PSYBER-L 

(soon) 
LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
eg  SIGNOFF  PSYBER-L 



Walter Logeman -- 

PSYBER-L Facilitator.
20 March, 1996

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From mrosen@DIALNSA.EDU Thu Mar 21 01:37:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Hi there!
From: "Marah Rosenberg~203-748-8835" <mrosen@DIALNSA.EDU>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:37:02 -0500

Hello, this is Marah Rosenberg.  I have been fascinated by the social /
psychological implications of tele-networking and computers for a very
long time.   Last year I produced a hypermedia version of A Midsummer
Night's Dream where the woods became Cyber(psyber)space and the court of
athens the board room of Athens INC. (a communications co.)  It was my
senior project at Purchase College.  The collaboration arose out of many
talks about how people use technology and the structure fitting into
basic groups.  (the lovers, the faries, the court...)  The Woods/ Cyber
Space became a place where desires were fufilled fantasies played out etc
etc.
I am still working on projects that I hope will draw more heavilly on
jungian related theory  and possibly this disscussion will help me refine
my ideas.  I hope to hear from you soon!

Marah Rosenberg
CyberSpeare : a hypermedia Midsummer
http://gaudi.va.purchase.edu/mnd.html

of course the site is never finished, but take a look any way
-m

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in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L




From hoon@APK.NET Thu Mar 21 02:14:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror . . .
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:14:59 -0500

Greetings!

>>The World _Wide_ Web is all light and glitter and
>>_surface_ . . .  yet under there is all the darkness of our
>>culture -- the greed, the pornography, the abuse, and most of all
>>the difficulty of relating, the struggle to do that thing that
>>Charles has been speaking of -- peace love freedom -- simple but
>>seemingly unreachable ideals from the 60s.
>
>True.

Peace, Love, Freedom...simple ideals. Makes me wonder what an *ideal* is.
Simple to do or to be at peace, to be free, and to do love, let alone be it?

>
>I'm turned off by people who advocate the hippy fashion but only pay lip
>service to its ideals; the hypocrisy  [snip]

Yet, by the very nature of such hypocrisy one may be very *near* the other
side which is contradiction which itself nears repentence; repentence in
esoteric terms. In terms of individuation I suggest the crucial moment
hypocrisy/ unconsciousness nears is dissatisfaction, or existential
anxiety.

>
>I also express loathing for the manufactured, pseudo-angst of the
>Romper-stompers, the skinheads who felt dispossessed during the late
>70's-late 80's, the punk backlash to reclaim youth from the long hair era.
>

Such 'posing' may be how the Gods, sts, are activated. What I have trouble
imagining is what a person does with all the piercing and holes in the skin
when that pose loses it's 'numinosity'.

>Words to close by:
>
>"In all nature monstrous things sometimes appear, because of the imagination
>of the movers [of the heavenly spheres] above.  The intelligences that move
>the spheres cannot in one way direct one motion or another except by seizing
>upon particular things; and this seizure is called 'imagination' after the
>'image' that is formed in the sensitive soul of living things.  But in
>practice everything that is created is already existent in the thoughts of
>the movers of the starry spheres.  All the material in things that can be
>produced obeys the mover, just as our bodies obey our souls.  We, too, have
>our own feelings so that when we think of some form or other our bodies are
>stirred with delight, or horror, or aversion."
>--Avicenna, the Arab philosopher
>
>The theme?  Well . . .

Well then, the messenger Avicenna states 'all things in obeyance' which
suggests we might do well to identify with 'all manisfestation' without
judgement for it also follows that beyond our personal response(s) to
hypocrisy, etc. is the necessity of the attributes.

Peace, Love, Freedom: purchased through the practice of non-aversion?
Simple to say too, yes?

And, the *imagination*, a strange angel, and the devil too.

Stephen

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 21 06:32:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PLG: Move 8
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:32:46 -0800

Move 8: Charles plays "niche of the lance" in position 1.

This phrase comes from a poem, "The Wreck of the Deutschland", written by
the British poet and Jesuit priest, Gerard Manley Hopkins -- my own first
love among poets.

After years of "silence" during which he had given up his youthful poetry
writing to go about the more "serious" task of becoming a Jesuit and a
priest, Hopkins was invited by one of his superiors to write a lament for
the deaths of five Franciscan nuns who had perished in a shipwreck, while
fleeing to England to avoid persecution.  His poem, "The Wreck of the
Deutschland", was the result.

There's a passage in the poem in which Hopkins writes about the founder of
their order, Saint Francis, and it is this passage to which I am referring
with this move.

Francis is popularly known as the saint who talked with the birds and
charmed a wolf, and is thus something of a "patron saint" for the
ecologically minded.  He was a quixotic soul who quit his wealthy family,
undressed in front of a bishop to demonstrate his complete disinterest in
the things of this world (the bishop was not amused), and lived a somewhat
hobo-like existence.  It is all too easy to romanticize him, to think of
him as a sweet young proto-hippie -- and the process can even be said to
have begun in the *Fioretti* or *Little Flowers of St Francis*, a
collection of early legends about his life.

But Francis was more, he was one of those rare souls so identified with his
Christ that Christ's life was in a curious manner incorporated, enfleshed,
in his own.  Francis received the "stigmata" -- wounds of the crucifixion
-- into his body, in a visionary ecstasy in which he saw his crucified Lord
carried by a seraph.

It is this moment of ecstasy and pain which Hopkins addresses in his poem:

          Joy fall to thee, Father Francis,
          drawn to the Life that died;
   With the gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance, his
        Lovescape crucified
            and seal of his seraph-arrival!

*

Position 1 is directly linked on the board with positions 2, 3 and 8.

The move, "niche of the lance", links with "three strange angels"  in
position 3, since a seraph is an angel of a high order in the heavenly
choir.  It links with "a peculiar people" in position 2, since both Hopkins
and Francis were members of religious orders (the Jesuits, the
Franciscans), groups which are set apart from the rest of humanity by their
common intent to "show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of
darkness into his marvelous light" (and indeed both Francis and Hopkins
were considered somewhat "peculiar people" in their own times).  And above
all, it links and resonates with the image of the "sword" at position 8 --
see Stephen's amplification of this move:

> Needless to say: the sword is a powerful and ancient symbol. It is
> one of the four suits of the tarot; it is related to the lance which
> itself is symbolic of the wounding of Christ and the wounding of
> the fisher king of the Grail legend(s); it is Excalibur, symbolizing
> the completion of the initial initiation.

Indirectly, this move also reverberates with Rilke's "Every angel is
terrifying" (see the text of Rilke's poem quoted in my move 4 in position
5) and notably with "knife and wound" in position 4, since the Christ of
the Last Supper and Crucifixion is both sacrificing priest and sacrificial
victim -- compare the full text of move six: "You see, I always wanted to
be both the knife and the wound"...

*

The meditation on this 8th move, "niche of the lance" in position 1, would
therefore be on "knife and wound" representing separate and opposed aspects
of human life (Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde), and the resolution of these
opposites in the eucharistic sacrifice...

< end of move 8 >

*

Your move...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 21 06:32:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PLG: what do you mean by *lovely*?
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:32:55 -0800

I promised that I would answer Hoon's question:

> Charles: what do you mean by *lovely*?

either *as* my next move, or along *with* it.  I hope that the text which
follows will go some way towards providing my answer...

In a post to a friend, I wrote recently, "It would be brilliant,
entertaining and educational: but it wouldn't be lovely <grin: English
term>, it wouldn't be *beautiful*."

What is lovely, to me, *what draws my love from me naturally*, is beauty.
So Hoon's question to me is in my own, poet's way of seeing things,
identical to the question: "what do you mean by *beautiful*?"  And I think
the answer to both questions:

> what do you mean by *lovely*?

> what do you mean by *beautiful*

is far from obvious.  I think, in fact, that there's a whole slew of words
we use with casual abandon -- "great!" "terrific!" "brilliant!" "lovely"
"awesome" "beautiful!" -- which need to be given back their deeper,
meditative, *awesome* meanings...

And so I wrote, some time back, this attempt to put into words just what it
is about Hopkins' poetry that I find so beautiful -- so very lovely:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let me confess that my own first love in the arts was Gerard Manley Hopkins
SJ, and that he has provided the template on which the first part of my
life has been envisioned.  Hopkins was not published in his own time, and
it was not until one of the great clocks of heaven struck a new hour that
his work was in fact heard.  I am no critic, but would say until corrected
that Eliot brought with him a sensibility that could appreciate Donne's
brilliant metaphysical wit, and that that same sensibility could hear in
Hopkins what he was: a great poet.  But to his contemporaries, raised on
late sweet Romanticism, Hopkins gave only a tortured sound...

Saint Francis, it is said, received the signs of the stigmata -- wounds of
the crucifixion -- into his body, in a visionary ecstasy in which he saw
his crucified Lord carried by a seraph.  Hopkins, lamenting the deaths of
five Franciscan nuns in a shipwreck, wrote of the founder of their order:

       Joy fall to thee, Father Francis,
          drawn to the Life that died;
   With the gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance, his
        Lovescape crucified
            and seal of his seraph-arrival!

There is a tortured sound in there, Hopkins' contemporaries were not
mistaken: "gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance" is as vivid in
sound as is Grunewald's terrible crucifixion in paint.  The pain is <return
to the root of the word> excruciating...  But as readers, perhaps we do not
linger: we pass from "Joy fall to thee, Father Francis" almost trippingly
to "Life that died", taking a brief rest there, then onward across "gnarl
of the nails and niche of the lance, his" and headlong into that triumphant
and terrifying "Lovescape crucified" with its rhyme... which should provide
us with a resting place.  Read those first four lines again, without the
fifth: they would be complete in themselves, if Hopkins permitted it. But
no, he has us hurtle on into the next line with not so much as a comma to
slow us down, slamming us into the sudden "!" which is emphatically more
than a full stop at the end of that strange enigmatic phrase "seal of his
seraph-arrival"...

All this was not done by Hopkins to make a beautiful formulation in words.
This was not done by Hopkins to make life pleasant for the common reader.
This was not done by Hopkins to resemble the poets of his day.  This was
not done by Hopkins to be novel.  This was not done by Hopkins to get
published.  This was not done by Hopkins to please critics.  This was not
done by Hopkins to prove himself avant-garde.

This was done by Hopkins to wrestle an angel into words.

This was done, in fact, *to* Hopkins... and constitutes the marks -- "gnarl
of the nails, niche" in him, in his language -- of his own Jesuit stigmata.
This is the excruciating <read it as parallel to exfoliating, for the
cross is also a tree> of Christ's passion in Hopkins' imagination, and he
offers it to us so that we can make it imaginatively our own.

For the sake of *continuing* the seraph-arrival...

*

I said that all this was not done by Hopkins with the wish to make a
beautiful formulation in words -- which is what we usually take a poem to
be -- and I would like to be somewhat more precise about that.

The attempt at beauty results in prettiness.  The attempt at truth results
in beauty.

Hopkins was after truth.

*

What I am after here is to dispel the idea that real art is a matter of
working within an esthetic.

The problem with our modernism and post-modernism is that it has become a
style, there is an esthetic to work within.  And within the confines of
that style or esthetic there is no room for the freedom of a master -- a
Kandinsky or a Klee.

In some very simply and direct way, masters do not work within an esthetic.
Oh, they may be aware of it, for one may permeate the air around them.
They may not resent or fight it, if it keeps out of their way, or they may
be utterly unable to tolerate it -- as the Baal Shem Tov was once unable to
tolerate the prayers in a synagogue, which he said lacked wings and were
cluttering the place up to the point where it was no longer possible for
him to breathe.  But they do not work within it.  Masters may forge one
esthetic, or destroy another -- but they do this because what must come
through them has so much passion that it requires every muscle of language
or color or sound strained to the limit to hold it.  It is the exigency of
their art that drives their esthetic, not the other way around.

Only this one word, "gnarl", Hopkins senses, will work musically against
these words, "of the nails", to grind those imagined nails into the
imagined palms of the hand twisting so hard that nerve recoils and blood
starts... in the reader.  And until Hopkins has brought the reader to that
pitch, until he has devised his sole infallible method of conveying that
aweful vision via words to the sensitive and willing reader, it will not
let him alone, it will fester in him...  There are no two ways about it, it
is not a matter of choice, he has to wrestle it into words to release it --
and himself...

And as he wrestles the language of his art into the sinews he needs to do
this, he is effectively wrestling the angel, the seraph, even the vision of
Christ crucified into words.

For it is only in his utter and complete vulnerability <rooted in vulnera,
wounds> to the wounds of his Christ, that the need for this faithful, this
truthfilled, wrestling with form and passion, vision and language, arises.

So trained "elite" crowds flock to the galleries and hip poetry magazines
and concerts to find further examples of an esthetic (today, the
modern-post-modern esthetic) that they have learned. Untrained "crowd"
crowds likewise flock to disparage an esthetic (the same) that they have
not learned, and would not wish to learn. And the artist has an angel
within him, and must deal with that fact.

*

I have said that all this was done by Hopkins to wrestle an angel into
words.  I would like to make it clear that in my opinion, the angel was
"within" Hopkins.  I am using the term, I hope, in the same sense in which
Ibn Arabi intended it when he wrote: "Angels are the powers hidden in the
faculties and organs of man."

Hopkins, being a most fortunate and unfortunate man, was also for a time at
least "within" the angel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As Rilke said, in that same passage from the Duino Elegies quoted in this Game:

::                                                   beauty is nothing
:: but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure,
:: and we are so awed because it serenely disdains
:: to annihilate us. Every angel is terrifying.

*

Loveliness, real beauty, is the foretaste of the seraph's arrival.




--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Thu Mar 21 06:59:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PLG: Hopkins & Hoon
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:59:46 -0800

It seems my mailing system sometimes cuts out the spaces when I try to send
poetry by e-mail -- and since I believe the graphic "shape" of a poem on
the page is a part of its beauty, I'm going to try to resend the Hopkins
quote again, in the hope that this will defeat the machine's attempts to
second-guess me.

::          Joy fall to thee, Father Francis,
::          drawn to the Life that died;
::   With the gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance, his
::        Lovescape crucified
::            and seal of his seraph-arrival!

Stephen: when you come to put my two posts up at your web site, please use
this version of the Hopkins quote both times -- if it "sets the poem off"
better in graphical terms...

Likewise, my quote of your amplification should read:

> Needless to say: the sword is a powerful and ancient symbol. It is
> one of the four suits of the tarot; it is related to the lance which
> itself is symbolic of the wounding of Christ and the wounding of
> the fisher king of the Grail legend(s); it is Excalibur, symbolizing
> the completion of the initial initiation.

with five of those little "> space" markers, one at the beginning of each
line.  But the machine persists in "guessing paragraphs", and often cuts
all but the first one out...  Please reinsert them: it makes it so much
clearer that I'm quoting, and where the quote ends...

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"

_____________________________________________________________
For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,
in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L




From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Thu Mar 21 11:53:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: == This list has a new address ==
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:53:11 GMT

== Announcement ==

To send mail to the people on this list please send to

PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

To get off this list at any time send to

LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
with the text  SIGNOFF  PSYBER-L


Please report any difficulties to walterl@chch.planet.org.nz


The old address will still work -- but only for a few more days
-- or weeks at the most.

For those who sort their mail into folders using the adress --
you will need to make a change in your setup.


Happy psybernetting.


Walter . . . . pleased as punch if this all works well!

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_____________________________________________________________
For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,
in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L




From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Thu Mar 21 11:53:11 1996
To: PSYBER-L  L-soft
Subject: == This list has a new address ==
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:53:11 GMT

== Announcement ==

To send mail to the people on this list please send to 

PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

To get off this list at any time send to 

LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
with the text  SIGNOFF  PSYBER-L 


Please report any difficulties to walterl@chch.planet.org.nz


The old address will still work -- but only for a few more days
-- or weeks at the most. 

For those who sort their mail into folders using the adress --
you will need to make a change in your setup.


Happy psybernetting.  


Walter . . . . pleased as punch if this all works well!

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Thu Mar 21 12:29:17 1996
To: PSYBER-L  L-soft
Subject: Testing and enjoying the new Listserver 
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:29:17 GMT

*  Country        Subscribers
*  -------        -----------
*  Brazil                 1
The options on this new listserv are far superior than any that
have been available the old system 

Review psyber-l by country gave me the list plus these stats:

*  Canada                 1
*  Finland                1
*  Great Britain          5
*  Greece                 1
*  Korea                  2
*  New Zealand            5
*  USA                   26
*
* Total number of users subscribed to the list:     42


walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Thu Mar 21 12:29:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Testing and enjoying the new Listserver
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:29:17 GMT

*  Country        Subscribers
*  -------        -----------
*  Brazil                 1
The options on this new listserv are far superior than any that
have been available the old system

Review psyber-l by country gave me the list plus these stats:

*  Canada                 1
*  Finland                1
*  Great Britain          5
*  Greece                 1
*  Korea                  2
*  New Zealand            5
*  USA                   26
*
* Total number of users subscribed to the list:     42


walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_____________________________________________________________
For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,
in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L




From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Thu Mar 21 13:34:29 1996
To: PSYBER-L  L-soft
Subject: Announcement in New List
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:34:29 GMT

I have wanted to do this for ages,and with the new listserv in
place it is possible . . . .  Here is what i put in the NEW lists
list:





PSYBER-L has moved from listserv@link.southern.co.nz to
LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
 
Psybernet Mailing List 

Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the
effects of email groups and lists on the psyche.  The list is a
starting point for professional depth psychological work on the
net.  

Topics include: 

The art of leadership in communication networks.  Creating
communication environments.  Gender issues.  Imagination,
metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity,
psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  Special focus on  how these
psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace. 

It is a place to form relationships around these interests. The
aim is to foster experiential learning. 

The list is part of the Psybernet project which includes
professionally facilitated psychological email groups.
Announcements about Psybernet group times and fees
will be made in this list.

More information:
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

To join the Psybernet Mailing List, send a message to:  

LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

in the body of the text write:   

SUBSCRIBE  PSYBER-L  Your Name




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Thu Mar 21 13:34:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Announcement in New List
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:34:29 GMT

I have wanted to do this for ages,and with the new listserv in
place it is possible . . . .  Here is what i put in the NEW lists
list:





PSYBER-L has moved from listserv@link.southern.co.nz to
LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

Psybernet Mailing List

Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the
effects of email groups and lists on the psyche.  The list is a
starting point for professional depth psychological work on the
net.

Topics include:

The art of leadership in communication networks.  Creating
communication environments.  Gender issues.  Imagination,
metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity,
psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  Special focus on  how these
psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace.

It is a place to form relationships around these interests. The
aim is to foster experiential learning.

The list is part of the Psybernet project which includes
professionally facilitated psychological email groups.
Announcements about Psybernet group times and fees
will be made in this list.

More information:
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

To join the Psybernet Mailing List, send a message to:

LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

in the body of the text write:

SUBSCRIBE  PSYBER-L  Your Name




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_____________________________________________________________
For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,
in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L




From LISTSERV@home.dc.LSOFT.COM Thu Mar 21 17:01:07 1996
To: Recipients of PSYBER-L digests <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER-L Digest - <first ever> to 20 Mar 1996
From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:01:07 -0500

There are 8 messages totalling 541 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. == This list has a new address ==
  2. Testing and enjoying the new Listserver
  3. Hi there!
  4. Announcement in New List
  5. For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror . . .
  6. PLG: Move 8
  7. PLG: Hopkins & Hoon
  8. PLG: what do you mean by *lovely*?

_____________________________________________________________
For options including how to unsubscribe from PSYBER-L, email
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,
in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Mar 1996 23:53:11 GMT
From:    Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Subject: == This list has a new address ==

== Announcement ==

To send mail to the people on this list please send to

PSYBER-L@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

To get off this list at any time send to

LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
with the text  SIGNOFF  PSYBER-L


Please report any difficulties to walterl@chch.planet.org.nz


The old address will still work -- but only for a few more days
-- or weeks at the most.

For those who sort their mail into folders using the adress --
you will need to make a change in your setup.


Happy psybernetting.


Walter . . . . pleased as punch if this all works well!

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:29:17 GMT
From:    Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Subject: Testing and enjoying the new Listserver

*  Country        Subscribers
*  -------        -----------
*  Brazil                 1
The options on this new listserv are far superior than any that
have been available the old system

Review psyber-l by country gave me the list plus these stats:

*  Canada                 1
*  Finland                1
*  Great Britain          5
*  Greece                 1
*  Korea                  2
*  New Zealand            5
*  USA                   26
*
* Total number of users subscribed to the list:     42


walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:37:02 -0500
From:    "Marah Rosenberg~203-748-8835" <mrosen@DIALNSA.EDU>
Subject: Hi there!

Hello, this is Marah Rosenberg.  I have been fascinated by the social /
psychological implications of tele-networking and computers for a very
long time.   Last year I produced a hypermedia version of A Midsummer
Night's Dream where the woods became Cyber(psyber)space and the court of
athens the board room of Athens INC. (a communications co.)  It was my
senior project at Purchase College.  The collaboration arose out of many
talks about how people use technology and the structure fitting into
basic groups.  (the lovers, the faries, the court...)  The Woods/ Cyber
Space became a place where desires were fufilled fantasies played out etc
etc.
I am still working on projects that I hope will draw more heavilly on
jungian related theory  and possibly this disscussion will help me refine
my ideas.  I hope to hear from you soon!

Marah Rosenberg
CyberSpeare : a hypermedia Midsummer
http://gaudi.va.purchase.edu/mnd.html

of course the site is never finished, but take a look any way
-m

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:34:29 GMT
From:    Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Subject: Announcement in New List

I have wanted to do this for ages,and with the new listserv in
place it is possible . . . .  Here is what i put in the NEW lists
list:





PSYBER-L has moved from listserv@link.southern.co.nz to
LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

Psybernet Mailing List

Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the
effects of email groups and lists on the psyche.  The list is a
starting point for professional depth psychological work on the
net.

Topics include:

The art of leadership in communication networks.  Creating
communication environments.  Gender issues.  Imagination,
metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity,
psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  Special focus on  how these
psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace.

It is a place to form relationships around these interests. The
aim is to foster experiential learning.

The list is part of the Psybernet project which includes
professionally facilitated psychological email groups.
Announcements about Psybernet group times and fees
will be made in this list.

More information:
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

To join the Psybernet Mailing List, send a message to:

LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

in the body of the text write:

SUBSCRIBE  PSYBER-L  Your Name




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:14:59 -0500
From:    Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Subject: For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror . . .

Greetings!

>>The World _Wide_ Web is all light and glitter and
>>_surface_ . . .  yet under there is all the darkness of our
>>culture -- the greed, the pornography, the abuse, and most of all
>>the difficulty of relating, the struggle to do that thing that
>>Charles has been speaking of -- peace love freedom -- simple but
>>seemingly unreachable ideals from the 60s.
>
>True.

Peace, Love, Freedom...simple ideals. Makes me wonder what an *ideal* is.
Simple to do or to be at peace, to be free, and to do love, let alone be it?

>
>I'm turned off by people who advocate the hippy fashion but only pay lip
>service to its ideals; the hypocrisy  [snip]

Yet, by the very nature of such hypocrisy one may be very *near* the other
side which is contradiction which itself nears repentence; repentence in
esoteric terms. In terms of individuation I suggest the crucial moment
hypocrisy/ unconsciousness nears is dissatisfaction, or existential
anxiety.

>
>I also express loathing for the manufactured, pseudo-angst of the
>Romper-stompers, the skinheads who felt dispossessed during the late
>70's-late 80's, the punk backlash to reclaim youth from the long hair era.
>

Such 'posing' may be how the Gods, sts, are activated. What I have trouble
imagining is what a person does with all the piercing and holes in the skin
when that pose loses it's 'numinosity'.

>Words to close by:
>
>"In all nature monstrous things sometimes appear, because of the imagination
>of the movers [of the heavenly spheres] above.  The intelligences that move
>the spheres cannot in one way direct one motion or another except by seizing
>upon particular things; and this seizure is called 'imagination' after the
>'image' that is formed in the sensitive soul of living things.  But in
>practice everything that is created is already existent in the thoughts of
>the movers of the starry spheres.  All the material in things that can be
>produced obeys the mover, just as our bodies obey our souls.  We, too, have
>our own feelings so that when we think of some form or other our bodies are
>stirred with delight, or horror, or aversion."
>--Avicenna, the Arab philosopher
>
>The theme?  Well . . .

Well then, the messenger Avicenna states 'all things in obeyance' which
suggests we might do well to identify with 'all manisfestation' without
judgement for it also follows that beyond our personal response(s) to
hypocrisy, etc. is the necessity of the attributes.

Peace, Love, Freedom: purchased through the practice of non-aversion?
Simple to say too, yes?

And, the *imagination*, a strange angel, and the devil too.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:32:46 -0800
From:    Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: PLG: Move 8

Move 8: Charles plays "niche of the lance" in position 1.

This phrase comes from a poem, "The Wreck of the Deutschland", written by
the British poet and Jesuit priest, Gerard Manley Hopkins -- my own first
love among poets.

After years of "silence" during which he had given up his youthful poetry
writing to go about the more "serious" task of becoming a Jesuit and a
priest, Hopkins was invited by one of his superiors to write a lament for
the deaths of five Franciscan nuns who had perished in a shipwreck, while
fleeing to England to avoid persecution.  His poem, "The Wreck of the
Deutschland", was the result.

There's a passage in the poem in which Hopkins writes about the founder of
their order, Saint Francis, and it is this passage to which I am referring
with this move.

Francis is popularly known as the saint who talked with the birds and
charmed a wolf, and is thus something of a "patron saint" for the
ecologically minded.  He was a quixotic soul who quit his wealthy family,
undressed in front of a bishop to demonstrate his complete disinterest in
the things of this world (the bishop was not amused), and lived a somewhat
hobo-like existence.  It is all too easy to romanticize him, to think of
him as a sweet young proto-hippie -- and the process can even be said to
have begun in the *Fioretti* or *Little Flowers of St Francis*, a
collection of early legends about his life.

But Francis was more, he was one of those rare souls so identified with his
Christ that Christ's life was in a curious manner incorporated, enfleshed,
in his own.  Francis received the "stigmata" -- wounds of the crucifixion
-- into his body, in a visionary ecstasy in which he saw his crucified Lord
carried by a seraph.

It is this moment of ecstasy and pain which Hopkins addresses in his poem:

          Joy fall to thee, Father Francis,
          drawn to the Life that died;
   With the gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance, his
        Lovescape crucified
            and seal of his seraph-arrival!

*

Position 1 is directly linked on the board with positions 2, 3 and 8.

The move, "niche of the lance", links with "three strange angels"  in
position 3, since a seraph is an angel of a high order in the heavenly
choir.  It links with "a peculiar people" in position 2, since both Hopkins
and Francis were members of religious orders (the Jesuits, the
Franciscans), groups which are set apart from the rest of humanity by their
common intent to "show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of
darkness into his marvelous light" (and indeed both Francis and Hopkins
were considered somewhat "peculiar people" in their own times).  And above
all, it links and resonates with the image of the "sword" at position 8 --
see Stephen's amplification of this move:

> Needless to say: the sword is a powerful and ancient symbol. It is
> one of the four suits of the tarot; it is related to the lance which
> itself is symbolic of the wounding of Christ and the wounding of
> the fisher king of the Grail legend(s); it is Excalibur, symbolizing
> the completion of the initial initiation.

Indirectly, this move also reverberates with Rilke's "Every angel is
terrifying" (see the text of Rilke's poem quoted in my move 4 in position
5) and notably with "knife and wound" in position 4, since the Christ of
the Last Supper and Crucifixion is both sacrificing priest and sacrificial
victim -- compare the full text of move six: "You see, I always wanted to
be both the knife and the wound"...

*

The meditation on this 8th move, "niche of the lance" in position 1, would
therefore be on "knife and wound" representing separate and opposed aspects
of human life (Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde), and the resolution of these
opposites in the eucharistic sacrifice...

< end of move 8 >

*

Your move...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:59:46 -0800
From:    Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: PLG: Hopkins & Hoon

It seems my mailing system sometimes cuts out the spaces when I try to send
poetry by e-mail -- and since I believe the graphic "shape" of a poem on
the page is a part of its beauty, I'm going to try to resend the Hopkins
quote again, in the hope that this will defeat the machine's attempts to
second-guess me.

::          Joy fall to thee, Father Francis,
::          drawn to the Life that died;
::   With the gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance, his
::        Lovescape crucified
::            and seal of his seraph-arrival!

Stephen: when you come to put my two posts up at your web site, please use
this version of the Hopkins quote both times -- if it "sets the poem off"
better in graphical terms...

Likewise, my quote of your amplification should read:

> Needless to say: the sword is a powerful and ancient symbol. It is
> one of the four suits of the tarot; it is related to the lance which
> itself is symbolic of the wounding of Christ and the wounding of
> the fisher king of the Grail legend(s); it is Excalibur, symbolizing
> the completion of the initial initiation.

with five of those little "> space" markers, one at the beginning of each
line.  But the machine persists in "guessing paragraphs", and often cuts
all but the first one out...  Please reinsert them: it makes it so much
clearer that I'm quoting, and where the quote ends...

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:32:55 -0800
From:    Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: PLG: what do you mean by *lovely*?

I promised that I would answer Hoon's question:

> Charles: what do you mean by *lovely*?

either *as* my next move, or along *with* it.  I hope that the text which
follows will go some way towards providing my answer...

In a post to a friend, I wrote recently, "It would be brilliant,
entertaining and educational: but it wouldn't be lovely <grin: English
term>, it wouldn't be *beautiful*."

What is lovely, to me, *what draws my love from me naturally*, is beauty.
So Hoon's question to me is in my own, poet's way of seeing things,
identical to the question: "what do you mean by *beautiful*?"  And I think
the answer to both questions:

> what do you mean by *lovely*?

> what do you mean by *beautiful*

is far from obvious.  I think, in fact, that there's a whole slew of words
we use with casual abandon -- "great!" "terrific!" "brilliant!" "lovely"
"awesome" "beautiful!" -- which need to be given back their deeper,
meditative, *awesome* meanings...

And so I wrote, some time back, this attempt to put into words just what it
is about Hopkins' poetry that I find so beautiful -- so very lovely:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let me confess that my own first love in the arts was Gerard Manley Hopkins
SJ, and that he has provided the template on which the first part of my
life has been envisioned.  Hopkins was not published in his own time, and
it was not until one of the great clocks of heaven struck a new hour that
his work was in fact heard.  I am no critic, but would say until corrected
that Eliot brought with him a sensibility that could appreciate Donne's
brilliant metaphysical wit, and that that same sensibility could hear in
Hopkins what he was: a great poet.  But to his contemporaries, raised on
late sweet Romanticism, Hopkins gave only a tortured sound...

Saint Francis, it is said, received the signs of the stigmata -- wounds of
the crucifixion -- into his body, in a visionary ecstasy in which he saw
his crucified Lord carried by a seraph.  Hopkins, lamenting the deaths of
five Franciscan nuns in a shipwreck, wrote of the founder of their order:

       Joy fall to thee, Father Francis,
          drawn to the Life that died;
   With the gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance, his
        Lovescape crucified
            and seal of his seraph-arrival!

There is a tortured sound in there, Hopkins' contemporaries were not
mistaken: "gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance" is as vivid in
sound as is Grunewald's terrible crucifixion in paint.  The pain is <return
to the root of the word> excruciating...  But as readers, perhaps we do not
linger: we pass from "Joy fall to thee, Father Francis" almost trippingly
to "Life that died", taking a brief rest there, then onward across "gnarl
of the nails and niche of the lance, his" and headlong into that triumphant
and terrifying "Lovescape crucified" with its rhyme... which should provide
us with a resting place.  Read those first four lines again, without the
fifth: they would be complete in themselves, if Hopkins permitted it. But
no, he has us hurtle on into the next line with not so much as a comma to
slow us down, slamming us into the sudden "!" which is emphatically more
than a full stop at the end of that strange enigmatic phrase "seal of his
seraph-arrival"...

All this was not done by Hopkins to make a beautiful formulation in words.
This was not done by Hopkins to make life pleasant for the common reader.
This was not done by Hopkins to resemble the poets of his day.  This was
not done by Hopkins to be novel.  This was not done by Hopkins to get
published.  This was not done by Hopkins to please critics.  This was not
done by Hopkins to prove himself avant-garde.

This was done by Hopkins to wrestle an angel into words.

This was done, in fact, *to* Hopkins... and constitutes the marks -- "gnarl
of the nails, niche" in him, in his language -- of his own Jesuit stigmata.
This is the excruciating <read it as parallel to exfoliating, for the
cross is also a tree> of Christ's passion in Hopkins' imagination, and he
offers it to us so that we can make it imaginatively our own.

For the sake of *continuing* the seraph-arrival...

*

I said that all this was not done by Hopkins with the wish to make a
beautiful formulation in words -- which is what we usually take a poem to
be -- and I would like to be somewhat more precise about that.

The attempt at beauty results in prettiness.  The attempt at truth results
in beauty.

Hopkins was after truth.

*

What I am after here is to dispel the idea that real art is a matter of
working within an esthetic.

The problem with our modernism and post-modernism is that it has become a
style, there is an esthetic to work within.  And within the confines of
that style or esthetic there is no room for the freedom of a master -- a
Kandinsky or a Klee.

In some very simply and direct way, masters do not work within an esthetic.
Oh, they may be aware of it, for one may permeate the air around them.
They may not resent or fight it, if it keeps out of their way, or they may
be utterly unable to tolerate it -- as the Baal Shem Tov was once unable to
tolerate the prayers in a synagogue, which he said lacked wings and were
cluttering the place up to the point where it was no longer possible for
him to breathe.  But they do not work within it.  Masters may forge one
esthetic, or destroy another -- but they do this because what must come
through them has so much passion that it requires every muscle of language
or color or sound strained to the limit to hold it.  It is the exigency of
their art that drives their esthetic, not the other way around.

Only this one word, "gnarl", Hopkins senses, will work musically against
these words, "of the nails", to grind those imagined nails into the
imagined palms of the hand twisting so hard that nerve recoils and blood
starts... in the reader.  And until Hopkins has brought the reader to that
pitch, until he has devised his sole infallible method of conveying that
aweful vision via words to the sensitive and willing reader, it will not
let him alone, it will fester in him...  There are no two ways about it, it
is not a matter of choice, he has to wrestle it into words to release it --
and himself...

And as he wrestles the language of his art into the sinews he needs to do
this, he is effectively wrestling the angel, the seraph, even the vision of
Christ crucified into words.

For it is only in his utter and complete vulnerability <rooted in vulnera,
wounds> to the wounds of his Christ, that the need for this faithful, this
truthfilled, wrestling with form and passion, vision and language, arises.

So trained "elite" crowds flock to the galleries and hip poetry magazines
and concerts to find further examples of an esthetic (today, the
modern-post-modern esthetic) that they have learned. Untrained "crowd"
crowds likewise flock to disparage an esthetic (the same) that they have
not learned, and would not wish to learn. And the artist has an angel
within him, and must deal with that fact.

*

I have said that all this was done by Hopkins to wrestle an angel into
words.  I would like to make it clear that in my opinion, the angel was
"within" Hopkins.  I am using the term, I hope, in the same sense in which
Ibn Arabi intended it when he wrote: "Angels are the powers hidden in the
faculties and organs of man."

Hopkins, being a most fortunate and unfortunate man, was also for a time at
least "within" the angel.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As Rilke said, in that same passage from the Duino Elegies quoted in this Game:

::                                                   beauty is nothing
:: but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure,
:: and we are so awed because it serenely disdains
:: to annihilate us. Every angel is terrifying.

*

Loveliness, real beauty, is the foretaste of the seraph's arrival.




--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"

------------------------------

End of PSYBER-L Digest - <first ever> to 20 Mar 1996
****************************************************



From hoon@APK.NET Sat Mar 23 05:33:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PLG: what do you mean by *lovely*?
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:33:08 -0500

Alright Charles,

I've parsed and snipped away to try to get at a distillation of your
welcome answer to the question I posed earlier.

>I promised that I would answer Hoon's question:
>
>> Charles: what do you mean by *lovely*?


*What is lovely, to me, what draws my love from me naturally, is beauty.*

*The attempt at truth results in beauty.*


>For it is only in his utter and complete vulnerability -[snip]-, that the
>need >for this faithful, this truthfilled, wrestling with form and
>passion, vision >and language, arises.
>
>And the artist has an angel within him, and must deal with that fact.
>
>[snip] "Angels are the powers hidden in the faculties and organs of man."

> "Every angel is terrifying."
>
>Loveliness, real beauty, is the foretaste of the seraph's arrival.
>

This is my way of making sense of your explanation. I will admit that the
prospect of our game being *lovely* diminishes although I feel that to work
out it's implications might be a powerful personal moment.

For the common-folk, sensitive but perhaps unartistic, the translation
becomes, (I'm feeling out loud, sts,)

...faith-full and truth-full wrestling with the great vision, passions,
power, and faculties which are our birthright does demand a great
sensitivity and courageous vulnerability, woundedness...

But this kind of suffering is common too. I do not myself believe that the
artist is dealing with angels of a different order; their gift might be to
be able to work the process artistically.

Charles I wonder, now, about what you mean by 'my love'?

Stephen

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From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Sat Mar 23 09:18:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: It was a contrast . . .
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 21:18:01 GMT

I spent some time today folding brochures for my next 'live'
group.  I was browsing the web at the same time . . . came to
http://metro.turnpike.net/~pflaump/winhttpd/htdocs/bill-g.htm,
Bill Gate's opening address in the Developers Conference . . .

It was a contrast -- promoting a group by snail mail at the same
time being present in the Gold Rush in cyberspace, which is
revolutionising communication -- which is what group therapy is
about too.

Another contrast was to read that address by Gates and then to
read


David S. Bennahum's MEME 2.04 where he interviews  Richard
Stallman, another software developer -- of a different ilk!

I get that MEME by email but it should be available at
http://www.reach.com/matrix/

All these somewhat hyped and technical discussions do get me
thinking about the _quality_ of the communication, I think that
is what this nook is about.

Best,

Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Mon Mar 25 14:28:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: In awe of life  [was: PLG: optimism, not idealism]
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:28:41 GMT


Stephen,

> Oddly, as much as despair might be part of the picture for me, the end game
> of my inflation was, upon returning to my hometown of Cleveland, watching
> my fraternal twin brother, (who said to me: "Jesus carries a sword!",)
> attempt to kill himself numerous times until he was successful on
> Valentine's Day in 1993.
> 
> The dreadfulness outside lit the shadow inside and those shadows started to
> burn.

It has taken me a while to fully digest the Game material, and
the lines above stand out, they speak so fully about you and your
brother.  They make the link between the sword and the burning
shadow scream out!   

What do you mean by your _inflation_ here?  

> ******
> 
> Optimism then, not idealism. Our parts are small perhaps, in this game and
> that game.
> 
> *******

Do you mean that you thought you had more influence, importance
that you actually had?  Over what?  The world,  your life, your
brothers?

> I'm in awe.

Of these processes that are so much larger than us all?

I am!



Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Mon Mar 25 14:28:48 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: affection for a machine
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:28:48 GMT

All,

Hard work.

I am attending to many things in life!  Today Sunday, I did "peer
supervision" with a friend -- looking in some depth at how I work
on the boundary between individual and group therapy -- it is a
vital area for me -- it brings up deep wounds from time when I
was in therapy and that boundary was not well attended to.

Hard work too, as that "boundary" question applies _right here
and now_ with the possibility of any or all of my individual or
group therapy clients logging onto this list.  The question also
comes up with respect to "clients" in cyberspace -- and while
there have not been many, it is possible for the members of this
list to form that sort of relationship with me.

Huge questions really.  I am writing about them as they form the
back drop to another turmoil of grief.  I am here, late at night,
alone, "putting down" the old BBS!  I haven't managed it quite
yet.  Its time has come -- the web pages and the new l-soft
system for lists have replaced all that Psybernet ever used the
BBS for.

However . . . with Reg Smith, I set up a complex system of
software -- comprising a dozen or more different applications --
many went through several upgrades.  I wrote and rewrote dozens
of text files -- welcome and goodbye screens etc.  I connected
the BBS to the fido system -- and then to the Internet. Moments
of great wonder as 'echos' poured in -- and moments of despair as
the themes of the Psybernet project remained a small voice -- no
matter how we multiplied our connectivity.

I feel affection for a machine and its software!  FrontDoor
Remote Access   DOS  MailGate  Gedit  Norton's   etc.  these
words have an almost numinous ring . . . and they will be put to
sleep, ( archived on a tape) !  The march of progress!

Perhaps I can place a small file on the WWW in memory of the BBS
. . .

Any way it is about to go . . . and  it will be one less pressure
in my life to maintain it.

Pleased to be able to express this here . . .


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Mon Mar 25 14:37:48 1996
To: PSYBER-L  L-soft
Subject: In awe of life  [was: PLG: optimism, not idealism]
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:37:48 GMT

Stephen,

> Oddly, as much as despair might be part of the picture for me, the end game
> of my inflation was, upon returning to my hometown of Cleveland, watching
> my fraternal twin brother, (who said to me: "Jesus carries a sword!",)
> attempt to kill himself numerous times until he was successful on
> Valentine's Day in 1993.
> 
> The dreadfulness outside lit the shadow inside and those shadows started to
> burn.

It has taken me a while to digest the Game material, and
the lines above stand out, they speak so fully about you and your
brother.  They make the link between the sword and the burning
shadow scream out!   

What do you mean by your _inflation_ here?  

> ******
> 
> Optimism then, not idealism. Our parts are small perhaps, in this game and
> that game.
> 
> *******

Do you mean that you thought you had more influence, importance
that you actually had?  Over what?  The world,  your life, your
brother's?

> I'm in awe.

Of these processes that are so much larger than us all?

I am!



Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Mon Mar 25 14:37:48 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: In awe of life  [was: PLG: optimism, not idealism]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 02:37:48 GMT

Stephen,

> Oddly, as much as despair might be part of the picture for me, the end game
> of my inflation was, upon returning to my hometown of Cleveland, watching
> my fraternal twin brother, (who said to me: "Jesus carries a sword!",)
> attempt to kill himself numerous times until he was successful on
> Valentine's Day in 1993.
>
> The dreadfulness outside lit the shadow inside and those shadows started to
> burn.

It has taken me a while to digest the Game material, and
the lines above stand out, they speak so fully about you and your
brother.  They make the link between the sword and the burning
shadow scream out!

What do you mean by your _inflation_ here?

> ******
>
> Optimism then, not idealism. Our parts are small perhaps, in this game and
> that game.
>
> *******

Do you mean that you thought you had more influence, importance
that you actually had?  Over what?  The world,  your life, your
brother's?

> I'm in awe.

Of these processes that are so much larger than us all?

I am!



Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
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From hoon@APK.NET Mon Mar 25 16:36:03 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: In awe of life  [was: PLG: optimism, not idealism]
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:36:03 -0500

>Stephen,
>
>> Oddly, as much as despair might be part of the picture for me, the end game
>> of my inflation was, upon returning to my hometown of Cleveland, watching
>> my fraternal twin brother, (who said to me: "Jesus carries a sword!",)
>> attempt to kill himself numerous times until he was successful on
>> Valentine's Day in 1993.
>>
>> The dreadfulness outside lit the shadow inside and those shadows started to
>> burn.
>
>It has taken me a while to digest the Game material, and
>the lines above stand out, they speak so fully about you and your
>brother.  They make the link between the sword and the burning
>shadow scream out!
>
>What do you mean by your _inflation_ here?

Walter, let me generalize first. Anytime we identify strongly with that
which we are projecting upon, anytime our affectual living-out, (the best
way I can describe it,) is empowered by intense fascination, those times
when we make numinous almost our entire experience, one, later, after the
'fact' might reflect and say: "there, yes, and at that time, I was in the
grips of a complex, (perhaps,) one might say also that one had for a moment
become the slave of the Self. Such was my inflation upon returning from an
unanticipated encounter with a 'peculiar angel' who I admitted in early
1988.

The particulars of the later moment (in confrontation with my brother,) are
not essential to the point I was pointing at :-) although I will share
them. It was a recollection of a dramatic moment when I was 33, but it's
essence is somehow a severe essence if you can imagine two fraternal twin
brothers, (I think,) both of them crying from the depths of direct, albeit
different, experiences, (and make no mistake in qualifying our respective
'states' as being, at the time and in their way, insane; fully-so,)
shouting the two sides of the same coin at each other. To divide, to unify:
which?

But everything that goes up...right? A month later I crashed and was thankful.

(Two years later my brother was dead, killed by neurological disease;
psychic dis-ease; cut down. )

Today those shadows burn constantly: my gravity as I chuckle about.

>
>> ******
>>
>> Optimism then, not idealism. Our parts are small perhaps, in this game and
>> that game.
>>
>> *******
>
>Do you mean that you thought you had more influence, importance
>that you actually had?  Over what?  The world,  your life, your
>brother's?

One ideal is to live in a state of constant numinous insanity! No. Anybody
who has lived with, by, a mentally ill sister, brother, parent, will know
of powerlessness and 'influencelessness'.

But, the *small part* is no less essential than the greatest possible
manifestation of soul or spirit. It is paradoxical. Even as a thought
problem we can feel around, for example, harmlessness, being influential,
but as an act, an every day doing, so small, and: so hard. (Okay...IMO.)

I'm much more into the peculiarity of it all, rather than the terror. But
the terror has been getting burned up, too. That helps!

>
>> I'm in awe.
>
>Of these processes that are so much larger than us all?
>
>I am!
>
>

Way back in August 1995 (!) I wondered out loud here how our activities
here on line might inspire us to rev up our *service* off line. But that's
just my idea of *lovely*...<wink>.

But I forgot how it works! Just as my self-absorbed preoccupations with the
Psyber medium have put me where I need to be.

***

I will enclose a poem written by my brother as soon as I can de-archive it.
Writing poetry was his calling and passion.

Best to all,

Stephen

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From hoon@APK.NET Mon Mar 25 16:57:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: a Tim's seraph
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 23:57:52 -0500

(Thinking about what) Charles wrote:

"For the sake of *continuing* the seraph-arrival..."

a poem by Tim Calhoun.

***


A Band of Poets...Forever


All day our horses ran away with us.
Suddenly the edge vanished.
Stars emerged in the heavens,
halving themselves infinitely
To make the new night flowers.


As we galloped near the river without color
Our minds let go of the reins.
A few individual men
Were lost permanently.
We did not mourn the passing there.


By dawn a solitary candle
Gilded the tiny mushroom towns silver,
And smeared gold behind behind my eyes.
I could not distinguish my comrades
>From the multitudes of my being.

Clearly the war was over now.
Though the thud of cannon echoed in the distance
And church bells toiled in their rims,
All this behind them became forgotten country.
For what we discovered is never lost.



[c] Tim Calhoun 1990

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From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Tue Mar 26 04:49:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: multiple nature of this list
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 16:49:11 GMT

Hi all,

The announcement in the NEW list was just distributed, and
immediately new people have joined the list.  This is by way of a
welcome message to all on the list who have not been welcomed!

What do you think of introductions?  I like sometimes to go back
and look at someone's introduction or home page when I get
involved at a later date.

I also like it when someone just launches in and raises their
interests and points of concern immediately -- we get to know
each other in the discussion.

On my mind at this moment of writing, is the multiple nature of
this list.  It is _on the one hand_ a place to explore the
psychological nature of this medium.  It is as if by being here
in lists of this nature that we are immersed in a place that is
closer to the collective unconscious than ordinary reality.  Also
one where we are able to get closer to our personal dynamics --
the effect of diary writing in public. The list aims to raise our
consciousness of these processes.

OTOH this list was born with the idea of developing some form of
professional depth psychology -- individual and group on the
Internet.

Can both be done in the one list?  Can the second one ever be
done?  To date, and the list has been around in various ways
since 1993 the focus has been far more on the first aspect rather
than the development of professional milieu.

What do you think?


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
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From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Wed Mar 27 10:17:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Reflections on Leadership
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:17:21 GMT

Facilitation, Moderation, Editing, leadership, list-owning . . .

All the roles associated with running lists one way or another.
It seems that some form of leadership cant be avoided.  Even in
the setting up of a list, dozens decisions about how the list
operates have to be made.  These are not democratically made --
they are up to the owner!  Even the most lasais fair (sp?) owner
has an influence on the list -- the list description will already
create a warm-up, determining who will sub and who will not.

How is the leadership combined with participation?  Does one
contaminate the other?  here for example I am both owner, and
facilitator (which is not the same as moderator in a technical
sense)  I also am an avid participator -- seems OK to me , but I
want to discuss this and reflect on it more.

In another group I am owner -- but not in other leadership roles
(formally), I have found that more tricky, being perceived as a
leader when I am not.  (Even by myself I must admit -- the title
of owner can easily go to ones head! )

How do others handle these roles?


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Mar 27 12:20:39 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Newbie in Psyberia
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 18:20:39 -0600

Hello to Walter and company,

        I've just subscribed and would like to take this opportunity to
introduce myself to this assemblage of 85 psyber-ians (and one hidden
character on the game board). I am wandering around here in Cyberspace
looking for a home, a community, and family. Last year, in April, I was
present for the birth of a list called Dignity Net (DNET), a list which  set
as its mandate, the discussion of using Internet for the purposes of
counseling and therapy. The initial reaction was excellent as many who
joined the list posted introductions and spoke of their hopes for the list.
After a settling-in period, there was some good discussion which focused on
the nature of cyberian communication and cyberian relationships. Attempts
were also made to discuss some issues in an attempt to dialogue in a group
therapy format. By August, the group went into a coma that wasn't broken
until fairly recently. However, the recent revival doesn't have a sense of
community, a sense of ownership, which has left it a shell - soulless.

        I have just read the only archived log for this group and find that
I may have found a potential home. So, let me begin with a BRIEF biography.
My name is Robert. I am a 46 year old male high school teacher in rural
Saskatchewan (western Canada). I teach French, Computer Studies, and from
time-to-time, the Psychology of Human Development. My post graduate work
focused on computer-mediated communication (CMC) and the psychology of
communication. My interests lay in meditation, philosophy, poetry, and
existentialist counseling therapy.

        I would like to explore the potential of the NET for the building of
relationships based on the VOICED words we speak on the net. Counseling and
therapy is essentially a dialogue. Since we can engage in dialogue on-line,
it follows that we should be able to use this medium to meet each other for
the purposes of counselling, therapy, and building authentic relationships
(I'm not speaking of the notion of on-line romance when I speak of
relationships).

        I welcome some reaction to my introduction - any reaction. I don't
enjoy engaging in monologue (is it a monologue when we speak to a silent
audience of lurkers that we know are present?) near as much as I enjoy
authentic dialogue (a la Buber svp).

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Wed Mar 27 23:43:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Another Psyber-newbie
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 12:43:22 +0100

Hello to Walter and company,

        I've just subscribed and would like to take this opportunity to
introduce myself to this assemblage of 85 psyber-ians (and one hidden
character on the game board). I am wandering around here in Cyberspace
looking for a home, a community, and family - much like Robert de Cyberie.

I'm expert in list hopping - having tried to contribute something to lists
such as CREA-CPS - Creativity and Creative Problem Solving - and I'm hurt
by their habit of reacting on my surface mostly - or not at all...

For intro: I'm 60, female, Berlin-born, partly of Russian descent, but
raised in an entirely German environment in which scholarship as well as
artistic performance were the dominating values. For now, I'm doing some
research in math and computer science but I'm on the verge to switch to
exploring the Net for a psych counseling career.

Walter's intro - speaking of PSYBER-L as an experiment in running a facili-
tated group via e-mail - was the lure to attract me.
I hope there will be plenty of dialogue to learn from. As you'll be fond to
imagine, it is reactions of all kind that one needs to learn from e-mail
partners as silence does &not* show youin which direction you're expected to
alter your behavior.

A technical note : I'm on DIGEST, so there is a day's lag for me to read
your nice reactions if sent to the list.
If there's an urge to pour out your heart to me instantly, please feel free
to write to me in private. I'll try to respond asap.

Happy to read from you,

Mila (pron. mee-lah)

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Thu Mar 28 00:47:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Dialogue: some questions
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:47:28 +0100

Hi, Robert de Cyberie,
it's a real pleasure to read and cite you as follows:

>>>
       I would like to explore the potential of the NET for the building of
relationships based on the VOICED words we speak on the net. Counseling and
therapy is essentially a dialogue. Since we can engage in dialogue on-line,
it follows that we should be able to use this medium to meet each other for
the purposes of counselling, therapy, and building authentic relationships
(I'm not speaking of the notion of on-line romance when I speak of
relationships).
<<<
Can you give me examples or even a definition of voiced/non-voiced words
we speak by e-mail ??
Are we building relationships already if we're engaged in e-mail exchange
or is there more to it ??
Which dialog partner is to call a dialog "authentic"??
Heinrich Heine's poetry behavior is witness to a conjecture on dialogs:
  As long as a dialog is running in a mode called "authentic", it is not deci-
  dable whether the dialog will
  remain so.
More on "authenticity" later on, if a relationship of understanding has built
up.
Au relire,
Mila

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From hoon@APK.NET Thu Mar 28 01:33:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: List Unconscious  [was: PLG: Summary: Game so far]
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 08:33:06 -0500

Walter, Psyberians,

>I am also conscious that as we are in the middle of this complex
>Glass bead like psyber game we have just doubled the number of
>people on the list.

WL: What happened to cause this expansion? (Just curious.)

re: PLG

I hope tonight to compose my own summary as a prelude to turning the corner
and hitting the home stretch. Plan to post my next move on Friday morning.
If somebody would be kind enough to confirm for me that the sound files
were downloadable.

(As an aside Walter, I don't know about your server space, but as an
archivable entity the PLG we're playing now, with its multi-media aspects,
suggests that it can either be archived as a compressed folder with all
contents -downloadable for local viewing-, or, would need to take up space
on a server to be accessible through the 'net. Which is to say it will need
to come off my server eventually.)

re: Walter's posts

Hope to have time to consider and reply this evening.

Best to all,

Stephen

***

Eudora Welty:

I am a writer who came from a sheltered life. A sheltered life can be
daring as well. For all serious daring starts from within.

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From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Thu Mar 28 03:28:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Newbie in Psyberia
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:28:41 GMT

Hi  Robert de Cyberie

A pleasure to get your introduction.  Interesting to heat about
DNET

> therapy format. By August, the group went into a coma that wasn't broken
> until fairly recently. However, the recent revival doesn't have a sense of
> community, a sense of ownership, which has left it a shell - soulless.

Without rehashing details -- are there any principles of cyber
communication that you think apply? That we might need to learn
here?

Here are some that I have come up with from my experience in this
list: Is coma silence?  We have had that here -- and I have
learned to 1. value the silence as one might in a face-to-face
group.  2.  Value immensely the contributions that _are_ made in
a phase of hiatus.

>         I have just read the only archived log for this group and find that
> I may have found a potential home.

Wow.  This list has just changed home and now the log is
automatic -- great!  I have three years of old archives from the
old system and I can sens those on request.  I will also make say
the last three months available by GET command -- however this
list has just doubled in size and is till growing so we are into
a new phase!

> My post graduate work
> focused on computer-mediated communication (CMC) and the psychology of
> communication. My interests lay in meditation, philosophy, poetry, and
> existentialist counseling therapy.

My guess is you will be at home here if the past is anything to
go by.  (And if it is then there will also be difficult moments!)

>         I would like to explore the potential of the NET for the building of
> relationships based on the VOICED words we speak on the net. Counseling and
> therapy is essentially a dialogue.

VOICED?  it there some anger in that?  Or are you distinguishing
it from written?

> enjoy engaging in monologue (is it a monologue when we speak to a silent
> audience of lurkers that we know are present?) near as much as I enjoy
> authentic dialogue (a la Buber svp).

Lets have the dialogue.  but what about the lurkers -- another
principle I have is value the "readers!"  -- why?  I am one on
several lists -- and I learn and have a place there IMHO.

What do you think?


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Thu Mar 28 05:10:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: List Unconscious  [was: PLG: Summary: Game so far]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 17:10:00 GMT

Hi  Charles, Stephen and all, especially those who have just
arrived,

I was looking over the archives on my disk and recalled that we
planned to play one of the "games" with a dream.  I am glad it
did not happen at that time -- i think there is only room in this
list for _one_ game like this at a time, not because of band
width or ever overwhelming everyone!  But it would be like having
two psychodramas at the same time on the same stage! I look
forward to the next moves in our current game and to the
possibility of the dream game at a later point -- it is as if we
are stepping into Hesse' book and leaning to be Magister Ludi
(is that the word ?  I read it 25 yrs ago.)

I am also conscious that as we are in the middle of this complex
Glass bead like psyber game we have just doubled the number of
people on the list.  What are these people doing?  might be the
response unless we mention something.

Let me say this . . .  the game we are "playing"  was introduced
by Charles who thoroughly prepared us for this process.  For the
new members it might make sense that posts in this series have
PLG:  in their header, although there are references to the
process that do not carry this topic assignment.  (there is no
formal TOPIC set up on this list at present and I would be
reluctant to introduce it as it works best on moderated lists, ie
where the moderator looks at all posts first and checks them -- I
have no intention of doing that here.   The PLG  (psyber list
Game)  will help us to ignore or savour these posts as is our
wont.  I will make a game archive and put it on the PSYBER-L File
list -- await instructions!

The game to me reflects deep and personal experiences, for the
"players"  the active audience and in some way the unconscious
processes of this list -- a descent into the underworld in some
way?  This game thread is part of the "given" on this list.

For a taste of the process for those who want to read on -- and
take a deeper look -- a week or so ago  Charles posted this
summary.  . . . see below:



Walter


* * ** ** * * ** ** * * * * * * * ** * * **

> Since the Game that Stephen and I are playing is in a temporary hiatus, I
> thought I'd post a sort of short summary of how things have gone so far.
>
> At the end of move 6, the board looks like this:
>
> *
>
>                           knife and wound
>                                 4
>                               * |**
>                             *   | ***
>                           *     |  ****
>                         *       |   *****
>                       *         |    ******
>                     *           |     *******
>         peculiar people         |      ********
>                 2---------------|---------------6
>               * | **            |        *******| *
>             *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
>           *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
>         *       |       ********|           ****|       *
>       *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
>     *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
>   *             |             [sword]*****  I awake: I see    *
> 1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10
>   *             |             **|******    burning shadows,   *
>     *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
>       *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
>         *       |       ********|           ****|       *
>           *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
>             *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
>       three strange angels      |        *******| *
>                 3---------------|---------------7
>                   *             |      ********
>                     *           |     *******
>                       *         |    ******
>                         *       |   *****
>                           *     |  ****
>                             *   | ***
>                        who...would hear me?
>                                 5
>
> *
>
> Remember that if the above image doesn't look like a neat square tipped up
> on one corner, you are probably viewing it with a "variable spaced"
> typeface, and need to convert it to a "monospaced" font such as Courier in
> your word processor.  I recommend putting it into Courier 10 point type, as
> 12 point is too wide for some screens.
>
> Assuming that you now have the board up and clearly visible, here's what's
> going on:
>
> *
>
> Move One:
>
> Stephen began the Game by playing in position three:
>
> :: No, no, it is the three strange angels
> :: Admit them, Admit them."
>
> This is taken from a longer poem by DH Lawrence, called  "Song of a Man Who
> Has Come Through".  The poem talks about "the wind that blows through me",
> a wind which he hopes will carry him -- if he is keen and hard like the tip
> of a wedge -- splitting "the rock" so that "the wonbder" will be revealed.
> And then he hears a knocking and is at first fearful -- then realizes "it
> is the three angels"...
>
> Move Two:
>
> The first move in a WaterBird Game sets the initial tone, obviously, but it
> can't *connect* with any other moves.  The player who goes second has a
> choice: s/he can move in a position that doesn't connect with the first
> move, and set a very different tone, or s/he can move into a position which
> does connect with the first, and establish some kind of link with it.
>
> Since I didn't recognize the poem, I was working only with the exact words
> that Stephen had quoted, and decided to play "a peculiar people" in
> position 2.
>
> I mentioned to Stephen that the phrase comes from I Peter 2: 9:
>
> :: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,
> :: a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him
> :: who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
>
> and said that at one point in my life, this particular verse had come to
> mean the "hippies" for me, because we were a indeed"generation" -- famous
> for it, in fact -- and a strange kind of freelance "priesthood", a "nation"
> in the sense of Woodstock Nation, and perhaps the most *peculiar* bunch of
> people you could hope to meet...
>
> So my move "a peculiar people" carries a direct echo of Stephen's "strange
> angels".
>
> Move Three:
>
> Stephen's next move was an image rather than a text -- the Game is
> fundamentally a multi-media Game, and moves can be visual, musical, textual
> or numerical -- and specifically the image of a sword, which he placed
> smack dab in the center of the board, in position eight.
>
> Move Four:
>
> I couldn't figure out a direct association between Stephen's "sword" and my
> "peculiar people", although the "sword of discrimination" can certainly
> separate "darkness" from "light" -- but there is certainly at least one
> instance of an angel carrying a sword -- the angel who guards the Garden of
> Eden in Genesis has a fiery sword...  But by now, Stephen had posted the
> rest of the DH Lawrence poem on which his first move was based, and it
> reminded me of another "poet's wind" -- wind being a common metaphor for
> inspiration -- the storm wind that was blowing around Castle Duino one day,
> and which seemed almost to speak to him, giving him the first lines of his
> magnificent long poem "The Duino Elegies":
>
> :: Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels
> :: hierarchies?
>
> My move consisted of these two lines, but the poem continues:
>
> ::               and even if one of them pressed me
> :: suddenly against his heart: I would be consumed
> :: in that overwhelming existence. For beauty is nothing
> :: but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure,
> :: and we are so awed because it serenely disdains
> :: to annihilate us. Every angel is terrifying.
>
> This move, it seemed to me, fitted nicely in position five, linking with
> "sword" somewhat indirectly, since the angel which "serenely disdains to
> annihilate us" sounds very like the angel with the fiery sword -- and it's
> certainly a "strange" angel when compared with the cute cherubs we see on
> cards at Valentine's Day.
>
> But the most interesting part of the linkage here, it seems to me, is that
> between Lawrence's "wind that blows through me" and the wind that was
> blowing at Duino when Rilke wrote his lines.
>
> Move five:
>
> Stephen, meanwhile, had posted a variety of associations that were relevant
> to his own moves -- some material on sword fighting, a comment on the links
> between DH Lawrence's reference to the Hesperides, with its golden apples,
> and the Garden of Eden, with its forbidden fruit, and so forth.  And he
> confirmed my sense that the sword was a "sword of discrimination", quoting
> a Jungian author, Edinger, and a Gnostic Gospel, the Gospel of Thomas, to
> the effect that the metaphorical sword of developing consciousness is that
> which cuts a child free of a too great reliance on family, and allows him
> or her to become a distinct and individual "person" in their own right...
>
> Stephen then played the phrase "I awake: I see burning shadows" in position
> nine.
>
> Again, this seemed to me to be an evocative move.  Stephen's images, the
> "strange angels", the "sword", the phrase "I awake: I see burning shadows",
> all seem to have a peculiar intensity which I have tried to match with my
> own moves -- it seems to me that it's this *intensity* which connects them
> to the other positions on the board, not a particular set of logical
> connections.
>
> Move six:
>
> And so I played... "knife and wound" in position four.  The phrase comes
> from the recently released film, Mary Reilly, a retelling of the Jekyll and
> Hyde story.  Towards the end of the film,  Dr Jekyll says:
>
> :: You see, I always wanted to be both the knife and the wound.
>
> I think that's an incredibly powerful image in its own right, and it brings
> a slightly different twist to the Game -- since "Dr Jekyll / Mr Hyde" is
> about a split personality, one half of whom is a killer.
>
> So the "knife" in this case, though still symbolic, is demonic rather than
> angelic...
>
> That's our Game so far, and I hope this short summary will help make sense
> of it.
>
> To get the sense of the Game as a whole, imagine these various ideas -- the
> "strange angels", the "peculiar people", the sword, the poet's cry to an
> angel in the teeth of a gale, the awakening to "burning shadows", the knife
> and wound -- as speaking to one another, each one clarifying, echoing or
> denying the others linked to it along the lines of the board.  Glimpse, if
> you will, not just the ideas themselves, but the ripples between them...
>
> This is, as I said, a highly evocative Game, but clearly one which circles
> around the issue of consciousness on the one hand, and the nature of the
> unconscious processes on the other -- processes which have the power to
> turn a man into an angel or a beast...
>
> *
>
> Stephen has signaled that he needs a few more days before resuming this
> Game, and I have promised to post my response to his question:
>
> > Charles: what do you mean by *lovely*?
>
> either *as* my next move, or along *with* it...
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
>
> --
> Charles
> Charles Cameron
> *
> hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Thu Mar 28 12:23:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Echos to ancient words spoken in the desert
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 18:23:22 -0600

Walter,

        You wrote in a post dated March 2nd:

WL>In a list like this what is consensus?   . . .  If there is no
WL>opposition?   How does power here correlate with power in the
WL>world?  I have the power over many things in this list . . .but
WL>not over what we all think? Am I as the facilitator in a position
WL>to sum up and declare what the consensus is?

I'd like to discuss some of these ideas with you and others. First,
I think that we need to dispose of the term _list_ and substitute it
with a word that reflects the true nature of this gathering in
Cyberia. There is much power in a name. If we tag a concept with a
name that hides, shadows, colours, or misleads, we journey into
chaos. Perhaps just naming this space and time will allow this
space to avoid the plagues that beset _lists_ since it will no longer
be a _list_.

_Consensus_?  Dialogue is an act of consensus. Can we ask for more?
Even in a face-to-face environment _consensus_ is a nebulous animal
that takes its shape only in a shadow would of perception. For
example, we vote on paper (no dialogue) indicating what? a
preference for ..., a belief in ..., acknowledgement ..., or?
a reaction against ..., an abdication ..., a weariness ... ?  Can
we ask for what potentially is only imaginal? By agreeing to
respond, giving consent, by the engagement in dialogue, we have
the only consensus we can fully comprehend.

Power here and power in the world are identical ... the power of
the mind to imagine, to create, to give voice through word. I hope
that we don't need to define power using physical descriptors.
What I see and what you see very likely don't correlate since
perception is not based solely upon sensory input (which in itself
can vary from human to human). The true power is that which allows
me to change. That power I retain here. Can I force change on
others? No. Each person has choice and directs his or her own
change, her or his own evolution.

I think I'll take your leave at this moment to gather up the
tendrils of thought that have scattered. I'll return.

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ Thu Mar 28 14:58:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: List Unconscious  [was: PLG: Summary: Game so far]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@Chch.plaNet.org.NZ>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:58:58 GMT

Stephen,

> WL: What happened to cause this expansion? (Just curious.)

Announcement in New list and also on other list of lists.

Hear from you soon,

w

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
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From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Thu Mar 28 14:58:58 1996
To: Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: List Unconscious  [was: PLG: Summary: Game so far]
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 02:58:58 GMT

Stephen,

> WL: What happened to cause this expansion? (Just curious.)

Announcement in New list and also on other list of lists.  

Hear from you soon,

w

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Mar 29 01:57:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dialogue: some questions
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 07:57:02 -0600

Mila, Walter et cie,

        Walter, When I wrote VOICED it was to draw attention to the word,
not to express anger (the danger of semiotics is the ease with which can
misinterpret).  Communication on-line has this quality of oral-ness that is
not evident in other print-based forms of communication (with the exception
of the passing of notes between individuals who cannot use the voice  in a
face-to-face environment.

>Can you give me examples or even a definition of voiced/non-voiced words
>we speak by e-mail ??

        Mila, I think I can.  The dialogue in which I am now engaged (with
you), an exchange of ideas, is oral in nature.  I _heard_ your question and
have chosen to respond. The relative immediacy of our dialogue is placed
somewhat between face-to-face dialogue and _correspondence (especially using
our postal system). As I speak to you, I am opening up myself to receive the
world that you are, I engage in dialogue. As for the others sharing our time
and space (the lurkers) they are likened to visitors in the same salon,
guests in front of whom we feel free to express ourselves.

        Non-voiced_ messaging is perhaps a _memorandum_, a posting of a
notice to the group. I don't think I'd place monologue in this category
since any who engage in a monologue do so knowing that others are listening.
There exists a hope that the words fall upon fertile ears and that dialogue
ensues. Does any of this help? I can find different paths to take inan
attempt to share my thoughts.

>Are we building relationships already if we're engaged in e-mail exchange
>or is there more to it ??

        I'll save this for my next opportunity to speak with you. Be ready
for some Thomas Moore and more!

>Which dialog partner is to call a dialog "authentic"??

        I don't think that you can declare dialogue authentic. It either
_is_, or isn't. Buber expressed it as follows:

        There is genuine dialogue -no matter whether spoken or silent-
        where each of the participants really has in mind the other or
        others in their present and particular being and turns to them
        with the intention of establishing a living mutual relation ...

     It's time for me to send this off and prepare for my classes.

a la prochaine
Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Fri Mar 29 04:02:53 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dialogue: some questions
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:02:53 -0800

Robert, Mila and all:

And what was that motto Jung had carved over his doorway at Kusnacht
<grin>?  VOICED or UNVOICED, the God will be there...?  VOCATUS atque NON
VOCATUS?

*

Seriously, folks, I have a friend on another list who uses this word VOICED
with an inflection that has always slightly puzzled me.

Mila writes:

> it's a real pleasure to read and cite you

and Robert:

> I _heard_ your question

so we have here both "writing / reading" and "speaking / hearing" metaphors
for what goes on in this espace.  It may be that we're dealing here with a
system of preferences not unlike that between those who use metaphors of
sight (see what I mean?), touch (we hold these truths) and hearing (it
sounds as though) to express a relation to meaning...  in which case *both*
metaphors likely have real contributions to make to our understanding, and
*each* will have partisans who may to a greater or lesser extent find the
other metaphor less appealing...

The poets, now: voicing in such a way that to read them is to hear them...
Where tone of voice is unimportant -- what time is it?  half past three --
*information* is passed, and may be passed as well in written form as in
spoken.  But where tone of voice matters most -- gnarl of the nails in
thee, niche of the lance -- even cold print bespeaks its *meaning*...

*

> and one hidden character on the game board

Given that it's a "glass bead game" we've been playing here, and that
Hesse, the fons et origo of our Game, writes of the "pieces" in his
*glasperlenspiel* as

::                    Those hieroglyphs once so significant
::                    That now are only colored bits of glass...

that word "character" which Robert voiced takes on a double resonance.  I'm
interested to learn whether the "hidden character" is an unvoiced person,
or an occulted hieroglyph...

*  In any case, welcome to both of you, and I suspect that with the influx
of new subscribers we are *all* newcomers to a new Psyber-L...

Cordially,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"

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From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Fri Mar 29 06:42:12 1996
To: Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Echos to ancient words spoken in the desert
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 18:42:12 GMT

Hi  Robert,

"Echos to ancient words spoken in the desert"

Is this the desert now?  I see a huge group of silent people.  I
am watching with awe as I see the names roll on in!  We are up to
100 members.  Seeing that "list" (send a Review psyber-l to the
listserv) is in sharp contrast to the quiet chat, almost private
chat in the corners.  

> I think that we need to dispose of the term _list_ and substitute it
> with a word that reflects the true nature of this gathering in
> Cyberia. There is much power in a name. If we tag a concept with a
> name that hides, shadows, colours, or misleads, we journey into
> chaos. Perhaps just naming this space and time will allow this
> space to avoid the plagues that beset _lists_ since it will no longer
> be a _list_.

Oh boy!  I see a huge light and open room with a circle of people
right around the walls -- such is my "projection" .  I also have
images of these same people at the same time in another reality
people looking after kids, riding their bike, working, and
dreaming about this "gathering" in this dream world, sometimes in
small glimpses.  

> _Consensus_?  Dialogue is an act of consensus. Can we ask for more?

What do others "see"?  Can there be a consensus on that?  I doubt
it.  In some ways I like _list_ because such things as
conference, group, forum etc are metaphors and each person might
like their own. "List" is building some numinosity of its own
here for me.  Being on lists is one of the most powerful
experiences in my life.  

> Even in a face-to-face environment _consensus_ is a nebulous animal
> that takes its shape only in a shadow would of perception. For
> example, we vote on paper (no dialogue) indicating what? a
> preference for ..., a belief in ..., acknowledgment ..., or?
> a reaction against ..., an abdication ..., a weariness ... ?  Can
> we ask for what potentially is only imaginal? By agreeing to
> respond, giving consent, by the engagement in dialogue, we have
> the only consensus we can fully comprehend.

Yes _imaginal_ we meet in this imaginal space -- as you say we do
even in face-to-face encounter -- but here it is glaringly
obvious!  A list is not a list!  Nebulous . . . shadow . . .
yes, and yet my image of the room we are in is _vivid_  as in a
vivid dream.  Chaos as you say -- we cant all be in the same
dream!

> Power here and power in the world are identical ... the power of
> the mind to imagine, to create, to give voice through word. 

Oh yes -- and right now I feel the usual feelings associated with
exposure -- speaking to so many -- dialoguing with another _man_.
Is this breaking of the silences use of _power_ . . .?  All I
know is that I feel the vulnerability of being accused of that .
. . 

> What I see and what you see very likely don't correlate since
> perception is not based solely upon sensory input (which in itself
> can vary from human to human). The true power is that which allows
> me to change. That power I retain here. Can I force change on
> others? No. Each person has choice and directs his or her own
> change, her or his own evolution.

Yep -- I also sense that there are some givens -- archetypes of
the net.

> I think I'll take your leave at this moment to gather up the
> tendrils of thought that have scattered. I'll return.

Thanks for allowing these tendrils to meet with the tendrils I
had put out -- and yes -- which were somewhat dormant in a
desert. -- I hope I am meeting with them, allowing them something
to touch, and at the same time letting them be what they are.

Thanks for dipping into the archive.

Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Mar 29 16:38:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dialogue: some questions
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 22:38:45 -0600

Cameron and revered guests,

>And what was that motto Jung had carved over his doorway at Kusnacht
><grin>?  VOICED or UNVOICED, the God will be there...?  VOCATUS atque NON
>VOCATUS?

Well spoken.  To carry on with the metaphor of speaking and listening, I
would like to clarify that what is transpiring here is not truly
speaking/listening or reading/writing.  Computer-mediated communication
(CMC) is yet a different metaphor.  It has an orality that evokes vague
images of speaking when _dialogue_ is in progress.  When the words on the
screen serve only as a function of mass media, a post-it note on a grocery
store bulletin board, the resulting communication reverts to _text_
(reading/writing).  Intention is the separating factor, intention of the
author, the speaker.


CC: so we have here both "writing / reading" and "speaking / hearing"
CC: metaphors for what goes on in this espace.  It may be that we're
CC: dealing here with a system of preferences not unlike that between
CC: those who use metaphors of sight (see what I mean?), touch (we hold
CC: these truths) and hearing (it sounds as though) to express a relation
CC: to meaning...  in which case *both* metaphors likely have real
CC: contributions to make to our understanding, and *each* will have
CC: partisans who may to a greater or lesser extent find the other
CC: metaphor less appealing...

Preferences/perception > shadows dancing on the wall of a cave, shadows
which imitate the concepts they illustrate, ideas based on a collective
and unconscious illusion of reality.  My words can only be metaphors, my
speech tainted by voiced accent (pronunciation, word choice, cultural
baggage, and ego).  Rather than seek partisans, search for listeners who
will dare to hear and reply validating one's being.

CC: The poets, now: voicing in such a way that to read them is to hear them...

Yes! Listen!

                Silence is a Time for Whispering
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

         A faint stirring in shimmering green garments
                sheltering in shade and silence
                the memory of a whisper
                a semiotic dance


        A ghost in soft shadows
        singing in pulses of the heart
        with practiced and patient questions
        sensed in the dusk and dawning


        Touch denied and abandoned
            feeling limited to the caress of a whisper
                sent in the time of silence

R> and one hidden character on the game board

This wasn't a reference to the board "glass bead game" originally, but it
has come to take on that face as well.  It found its origin in the call for
a REVIEW of psyber-l wherein one member was hidden.  After reading posts of
the glass bead game (and Walter's post in reference to the three angels), I
realized that the game had a hidden character - the lurker (both in the
present time of the game's moves, and in the asynchronic time of my
choosing).  Like Walter, I became a player, a hidden character.

CC: Given that it's a "glass bead game" we've been playing here, and that
CC: Hesse, the fons et origo of our Game, writes of the "pieces" in his CC:
*glasperlenspiel* as
CC:
CC::                    Those hieroglyphs once so significant
CC::                    That now are only colored bits of glass...
CC:
CC: that word "character" which Robert voiced takes on a double resonance.
CC: I'm interested to learn whether the "hidden character" is an unvoiced
CC: person, or an occulted hieroglyph...

Good question.  I wish I had an answer.

Robert de Cyberie
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.CO.NZ Sat Mar 30 04:40:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dialogue: some questions
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.CO.NZ>
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 16:40:50 GMT

Hi  Robert de Cyberie Mila and all,

>         Walter, When I wrote VOICED it was to draw attention to the word,
> not to express anger (the danger of semiotics is the ease with which can
> misinterpret).  Communication on-line has this quality of oral-ness that is
> not evident in other print-based forms of communication (with the exception
> of the passing of notes between individuals who cannot use the voice  in a
> face-to-face environment.

Ah!  With your response to Mila I see what you are saying.  (That
just came out like that no cleverness intended).  Of course --
voicing is very different from passing on data.  My setup here
puts in the "Hi Robert "  and i find myself rewriting it
sometimes -- to give it voice!

Obviously the misinterpretation is a mirror for me -- in that
moment it said something about me. Last night, as I sensed the
100 people in this space, I thought, what a field day for
projection -- all those unknown people -- and everything I
experience in response to them is about _me_!

> Buber expressed it as follows:
>
>         There is genuine dialogue -no matter whether spoken or silent-
>         where each of the participants really has in mind the other or
>         others in their present and particular being and turns to them
>         with the intention of establishing a living mutual relation ...

I wanted to leave that here, after meditating on it for a bit.
In such a relationship there is no room for projection -- a lot
to ask of us.  I am reminded of what J L Moreno ( psychodrama )
called role reversal -- seeing the world through the eyes of the
other.


Walter

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat Mar 30 06:47:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PLG held up
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:47:51 -0500

Yes, the PLG Waterbird game is held up and being held hostage by my
schedule and three jobs.

Will post summary and my move Saturday, God willing, of course.

Good to see the new blood sts; lots of provocative and erudite and
feeling-full communication going on here.

(Walter: it's -still- quote a ride!) : )

Best to all,

Stephen


***

Plants may be sown
by the throwing of seeds,
but care is needed
for the joys of the eyes-
the rich rice field of golden corns.


P.Podo

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Mar 30 12:57:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dialogue: some questions
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 00:57:55 GMT

Robert,

On Thu, 28 Mar 1996   you  wrote:


> Yes! Listen!
>
>                 Silence is a Time for Whispering

I have been with the silence here today as I went about my
business.  A friend who is here mentioned the silence to me.

I contemplated speaking to All, but it felt right to move here
and whisper to you -- though not in private -- here where we can
be heard.

>          A faint stirring in shimmering green garments
>                 sheltering in shade and silence
>                 the memory of a whisper
>                 a semiotic dance

It is as if you are asking for us to see this space . . .

>         A ghost in soft shadows
>         singing in pulses of the heart
>         with practiced and patient questions
>         sensed in the dusk and dawning

I can hear it and the intensity, sadness . . .

>         Touch denied and abandoned
>             feeling limited to the caress of a whisper
>                 sent in the time of silence

Exactly


Moving to listen to you.


Walter

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From edbaud@SLVBBS.COM Sat Mar 30 23:12:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: The Hidden Character(s)
From: Fred Bauder <edbaud@SLVBBS.COM>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 06:12:43 EST

MA>First, let me introduce myself.  I am Fred Bauder, an attorney in
MA>Crestone, Colorado, USA.  I practice family and other civil law and have
MA>a sustained interest in psychology, even in psychoanalysis.  I have been
MA>active on NETDYNAM on the LISTSERV@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU which has been
MA>exploring interaction on the net.  I was intoduced to Wilfred Bion and
MA>Melanie Klein by posters on that list.

MA>I have recently been playing on a MUD (an interactive on-line venue
MA>within which one assumes a character and has adventures, meanwhile
MA>interacting with the other players).  I enjoy this immensely and my
MA>character, Toots, has recently acheived the level of magess of which I
MA>am very proud.

MA>To address the topic of this post.  Most people who subscribe to an
MA>e-list will never post, some very seldomly.  They are as a group called
MA>"lurkers."  Occassionally one may live up to that name and suddenly
MA>surface and vigorously expound on his impressions of things, but
MA>generally they simply read, or forgot that they subscribe and serve as a
MA>rich object for the projections of the active posters.

MA>They can be projected as a Chorus, as in Greek theater, but are by
MA>defintion tongue-tied.

MA>Fred

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Mar 31 07:45:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: another whisper [was Re: PLG held up]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 19:45:16 GMT

Hi  Stephen

> Yes, the PLG Waterbird game is held up and being held hostage by my
> schedule and three jobs.

as long as you get 4 hrs sleep eh!  (saw that advice in your web
page -- I try to follow it.)

> Good to see the new blood sts; lots of provocative and erudite and
> feeling-full communication going on here.

sts?  I am appreciating what we have -- though I would not call
it lots -- perhaps I notice it more because I see the subs coming
in --  a 100 new ones is quite a lot and to me it seems quiet
here.  ( I am whispering to you, out loud as it were)

> (Walter: it's -still- quote a ride!) : )

quote?  It is.  I subbed to a new list -- not that I need more!
and watched the introductions roll in.  In some ways I prefer the
silence -- imagine small whispers building -- each attended to by
someone -- noticed -- seen -- heard -- listened to, how would
that be?  I think that is the tone here at the moment -- or am I
imagining that :).

> Best to all,

and you

> Plants may be sown
> by the throwing of seeds,
> but care is needed
> for the joys of the eyes-
> the rich rice field of golden corns.

some seeds are being sewn here now . . .


Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Mar 31 08:48:03 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: == PSYBER-L FILELIST==
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 20:48:03 GMT

Hi all,

== PSYBER-L FILELIST==
To get files and archives email LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM  In
the body of the email write:   INDEX  PSYBER-L.

You can then issue GET <filename> <filetype> commands to the same
listserv address.

For example

GET PSYBER-L.DESCRIPT

That will give you the list description.  The logs of the list
can be sent to you via email in the same way.

Walter.


End of non _voiced_ communication.  As a matter of interest the
description is a little fuller than the one used in the New list.
More files will be added to this list soon.  Let me know if there
are any hitches -- the filelist system is in a beta stage on
Lsoft, and i am only just learning to set it all up at this end.

Walter
> * PSYBER-L FILELIST from LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> *
> * :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> *
> *  The GET/PUT authorization codes shown with each file entry describe
> *  who is authorized to GET or PUT the file:
> *
> *     ALL = Everybody
> *     CTL = LISTSERV administrators
> *     OWN = List owners
> *     PRV = Private, ie list members
> *     LMC = LISTSERV master coordinator
> *     N/A = Not applicable - file is internally maintained by LISTSERV
> *     MSC = Miscellaneous - contact administrator for more information
> *
> * :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> * Files that can be downloaded with the GET command.
> *
> *                                       rec             last - change
> * filename      filetype        GET PUT -fm lrecl nrecs date     time
> * --------      --------        --- --- --- ----- ----- -------- --------
>   PSYBER-L      DESCRIPT        ALL OWN V      62    42 96/03/29 18:02:40
>
>
> *
> * Archive files for the PSYBER-L list at HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
> * (monthly logs)
> *                                       rec             last - change
> * filename      filetype        GET PUT -fm lrecl nrecs date     time
> * --------      --------        --- --- --- ----- ----- -------- --------
>   PSYBER-L      LOG9603         LOG OWN V      79  2168 96/03/29 13:50:27
>

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From barthel@IONET.NET Mon Apr 01 02:10:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Hi to everyone on Psyber-L
From: Nanci Barthel <barthel@IONET.NET>
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 08:10:01 -0600

Hi.......  (Should I be whispering?  I don't want to startle anyone!)

I am new to this list and I thought that I would say hello to everyone.  My
name is Nanci and I am a clinical social worker by profession.  I was
intrigued with this list because I am very interested in the dynamics of
interaction on the internet.   Last summer I joined my first list, and I
quickly became totally fascinated with this medium.   I have met many
interesting people and developed meaningful friendships.  I have also
learned many things, but to me that is secondary to the relationships that I
have developed through e-mail.  Besides private e-mail,  I enjoy
participating in lists and observing the dynamics of interaction on lists,
the way lists evolve, and the different cultures that they develop.

I am looking forward to hearing the thoughts of others on this list.....

Warm Regards,

Nanci

barthel@ionet.net

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Mon Apr 01 02:45:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Psyber-newbie
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 14:45:31 GMT

Hi Mila,

>         I've just subscribed and would like to take this opportunity to
> introduce myself to this assemblage of 85 psyber-ians (and one hidden
> character on the game board).

The number is up again to about 120 . . . many will not have seen
your introduction -- I will leave it attached below.


> I am wandering around here in Cyberspace
> looking for a home, a community, and family - much like Robert de Cyberie.
>
> I'm expert in list hopping - having tried to contribute something to lists
> such as CREA-CPS - Creativity and Creative Problem Solving - and I'm hurt
> by their habit of reacting on my surface mostly - or not at all...

So how is it so far for you here?  I hope you are still here --
though some are leaving.

> I'm on the verge to switch to
> exploring the Net for a psych counseling career.

Wow.  That means that this list must have some relevance to you
as that sort of professional development is one of its purposes.


> Walter's intro - speaking of PSYBER-L as an experiment in running a facili-
> tated group via e-mail - was the lure to attract me.

Yes, it is my intention to be as _facilitative_ as I am able
here.  Being present on this old and familiar list with so many
new people is an "interesting moment " from a facilitators point
of view.  Perhaps just before you arrived I made a comment that I
am in this leadership role here -- but also a "participant" a
member.  I am in the position of wanting to learn how
facilitation works here.  Learning by doing.  My back ground in
psychodrama gives me a lot of experience in face-to-face groups
but in some ways that is not helpful -- there are some things to
unlearn as well -- this is not a face-to-face group!

Yet I see a face-to-face group!   I enjoyed my attempt to see
this gathering more as described in Robert's poem:  "Silence is a
Time for Whispering" , but I return all too easily to a drier
image of the large quiet room, where you and I are now
whispering.  Being the list owner I see that several have left as
we gather . . . I have no idea who they are . . . and have learnt
that this is OK here in cyberspace -- in a face-to-face group it
would be disturbing.

> I hope there will be plenty of dialogue to learn from. As you'll be fond to
> imagine, it is reactions of all kind that one needs to learn from e-mail
> partners as silence does &not* show youin which direction you're expected to
> alter your behavior.

What of the silence here . . . what are we learning from that?  I
am learning from it.  One thing I learn is about its intensity
_for me_.  It is as if I hear it all day!

> A technical note : I'm on DIGEST, so there is a day's lag for me to read
> your nice reactions if sent to the list.
> If there's an urge to pour out your heart to me instantly, please feel free
> to write to me in private. I'll try to respond asap.

I will send you a copy of this . . . but I would really
appreciate our continued discussion, to be in the open  . . .
space -- list -- group?

What sort of net counselling were you hoping to develop?  Have
you had exp in face-to-face or on the net counselling?  What do
you envisage?

Walter



Original message:


Hi  Mila

> Hello to Walter and company,
>
>         I've just subscribed and would like to take this opportunity to
> introduce myself to this assemblage of 85 psyber-ians (and one hidden
> character on the game board). I am wandering around here in Cyberspace
> looking for a home, a community, and family - much like Robert de Cyberie.
>
> I'm expert in list hopping - having tried to contribute something to lists
> such as CREA-CPS - Creativity and Creative Problem Solving - and I'm hurt
> by their habit of reacting on my surface mostly - or not at all...
>
> For intro: I'm 60, female, Berlin-born, partly of Russian descent, but
> raised in an entirely German environment in which scholarship as well as
> artistic performance were the dominating values. For now, I'm doing some
> research in math and computer science but I'm on the verge to switch to
> exploring the Net for a psych counseling career.
>
> Walter's intro - speaking of PSYBER-L as an experiment in running a facili-
> tated group via e-mail - was the lure to attract me.
> I hope there will be plenty of dialogue to learn from. As you'll be fond to
> imagine, it is reactions of all kind that one needs to learn from e-mail
> partners as silence does &not* show youin which direction you're expected to
> alter your behavior.
>
> A technical note : I'm on DIGEST, so there is a day's lag for me to read
> your nice reactions if sent to the list.
> If there's an urge to pour out your heart to me instantly, please feel free
> to write to me in private. I'll try to respond asap.
>
> Happy to read from you,
>
> Mila (pron. mee-lah)




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Mon Apr 01 13:06:03 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Touching a whisper
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 19:06:03 -0600

Salut tout le monde!

        I just returned from a week-end of activity with my family (Hockey
in Canada) and have a few moments to speak with you. Walter, in your
response to Stephen, you state:

WL: I see the subs coming in --  a 100 new ones is quite a lot and to
WL: me it seems quiet here.

I agree, it is quiet. Can it be any other way at the present? All these new
psyberians, some visiting, some window shopping, and probably a few moving
into the neighbourhood in hopes that they build a new home (like myself). I
picture life in a _list_ as somewhat like living in a town that has a high
percentage of temporary residents. A transient community on a backwater road
that is more suited to motorcycle mechanics practising a zen moment.

        Yet, I also agree with Stephen's notion:

SC: Good to see the new blood sts; lots of provocative and erudite
SC: and feeling-full communication going on here.

The postings for most of March and April painted a very narrow, insular
community. With the broadcast of Psyber-l's existence and it's vision
statement, the inrush of subscriptions with already three of these new
subscribers giving voice to their presence within just one week, silence
appears to have been banished. Mila and Nanci have spoken to all of us
casting their communication ripples into the pond of this neophyte
community. The old psyber-l disappeared with the opening of the gates.
Thankfully, the residents of the previous life of psyber-l have stayed to
share this new life (re-incarnation of a list). It isn't so silent after all.

        Walter, you added:

WL: I subbed to a new list -- not that I need more!
WL: and watched the introductions roll in.  In some ways I prefer the
WL: silence -- imagine small whispers building -- each attended to by
WL: someone -- noticed -- seen -- heard -- listened to, how would
WL: that be?  I think that is the tone here at the moment -- or am I
WL: imagining that :).

We're thinking before opening our mouths. It's very different when you've
been invited into someone's home (this isn't a new list), than if you've
arrived in a new trailer home park at the same time as everyone else. As we
reach the point of committing our voices to dialogue (at least for a few
moments) we do so out of faith and hope that our voices belong here. Until
then we remain silent. If the community doesn't meet our hoped for
expectations, we either unsub or forget about groups's existence until it
becomes a mailbox problem.

WL: My back ground in psychodrama gives me a lot of experience in WL:
face-to-face groups but in some ways that is not helpful -- there
WL: are some things to unlearn as well
WL: -- this is not a face-to-face group!

Strange and stranger!?! What have we here? a plane of existence? what
defines us as beings on this plane of existence? I'm reminded of Richard
Bach's book _Running from Safety_. We exist on several planes at the same
time and are different beings on each plane. The only connection from one
plane to the other is the _soul_ which defines each of us. <<We are not our
bodies. We are not our minds.>> (Eknath Easwaran - Meditation)

WL: I enjoyed my attempt to see this gathering more as described in WL:
Robert's poem:  "Silence is a Time for Whispering" , but I return all WL:
too easily to a drier image of the large quiet room, where you and I WL: are
now whispering.

Old metaphors can't fit. I wonder if we couldn't find a myth that is apropos
for the situation. Does a _list_ have a psyche? Does a community have a
_psyche_? Leave the large room and find me wandering in these electric
spaces of my soul, your soul, our community soul. I can hear even when it is
silent. I can hear the whisper of our breath as a community, the echoes of
our thoughts in formation.

WL: What of the silence here . . . what are we learning from that?  I
WL: am learning from it.  One thing I learn is about its intensity
WL: _for me_.  It is as if I hear it all day!

Maybe, the silence is not so silent. Like a voiced message, we experience,
we reflect, we worry, we build, we react, we suffer, and we find ourselves
faced yet once again with ourselves. Where ever I go, there I am.

Robert de Cyberie

ps - Hi Nanci! No, whispering isn't necessary. Let your voice ring with its
songs for us. Welcome! It's good to have another join with me on this new
journey of awakening.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From hoon@APK.NET Mon Apr 01 16:35:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PLG: Move 9
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 23:35:28 -0500

Friends and Fellow Psyberians and Fred too,

(Lengthy post to follow. The PLG waterbird came continues.

It is presented as a web site at
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html
 [through ->]
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG5.html) -This will be edited tomorrow am.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Charles,

Moving into the game again, I today printed out 32 pages of moves and
commentary. I also took a good look at the Waterbird board hoping to see
further into it.

There are five different triangles activated by the current status of the game.

They all share the move in the center: SWORD.

This is enough for me: the symbol of the three sides of the triangle and
the sword, the symbol of mature spirit. What is missing is the fourth. But
(!) the fourth naturally arises out of the third.

Hidden are the various shifts which represent the idea of this third,
implicit is the movement to a fourth, new position. Brilliantly, the final
two moves of the game will clarify this.

(What does this have to do with real people? Will wait and see.)

***

Charles and I are playing in this game with ideas about human
transformation. There is something both stark and repellent expressed here.

Although my local friend and fellow Psyberian has not chosen to contribute
publicly to the game, her private contribution is relevent. She wonders if
this is a man's game, guy stuff. My own efforts to bring my own feminine
into view here are somewhat tortured! That has been my intention
nonetheless.

If it is a man's game, even a wounded man's game, and through it we,
Charles and I, the commentators, have been shaping something of our
natures, we see what some of our issues are about.

Somewhere, myself...toward the end of the mid-life alchemy, God be thanked,
I note too how the game recapitulates the contours of my own
transformation.

Yet, the material is, upon review, obscure. I will attempt when the game is
finished to strip this away. For now, I'd like to take a look at how the
polarity of MOVE and RESPONSE has made this game psychological and how it
is the third has been made.

***

Spirit is said to be our true nature outside of time and soul our true
nature in time; one the eternal creative response the other the perpetual
creative response; one larger than our self the other exactingly of our
truest proportion; one transcendent, the other 'made sense' through
incarnation.

Unity in the archetypal sense may be said to be the marriage of spirit and
soul mediated by the open-ended process of individuation arriving at a
transcendent fourth, nothing less than a wholeness described by our ability
to transform through and throughout our natures.

***

The third, the particle of sand in the oyster, is the impetus. There is
work to do, always.

***

One triangle is PECULIAR PEOPLE [2] and THREE STRANGE ANGELS [3] mediated
by SWORD [8]. My sense is the offset between all of those who's taste of
the ideal, some hippies for example, has irrevocably give them even the the
briefest recollection of the angelic. The 3 strange angels knock on many a
man's door, early. Perhaps we are turned into princes, dark ones, or,
others, like myself, take flight, and others may focus their spiritual
passion on any number of intense pursuits.

But the angels' knocking is a singular fact. No matter how perverted our
Spirit may be, for some there is the sound of that knocking. Indeed, the
peculiar people start out called into ::his marvelous light:: but then,
much later, and on a different level, there is the need to embody darkness.

The SWORD stands aptly central to the maturation process, signalling the
discrimination and feeling necessary to bring our ideals, in my case for
example, down to earth and grounded within an incarnation.

***

Another triangle speaks to this return. Again, PECULIAR PEOPLE is offset by
KNIFE AND WOUND [4] mediated by the ever-present SWORD.

Highlighted is the wounding of our ideals. The Summer of Love, Manson's
'commune', free love today pointing directly at the scourge of AIDS. Not
only this but the wounding of the Father evident in many men's estrangement
from their fathers. Many of us looking across some wide ocean, our country
different than the country of our Fathers. This is my experience at least.

These kinds of estrangement(s) speak of the wounding and of being alone.
::If I cried out?:: How this echoes with: "Why has thou (Father) forsaken
me?".

***

"WHO WOULD HEAR ME?" [5] is offset by THREE STRANGE ANGELS and SWORD. What
more shall I say? This game with it's players and commentators, yes, this
man's game, is crying out to the Angels. However,  there is something
wonderfully *open* about the WHO. Is it a shout from the spirit world, the
world of a man's spirit?

***

There is a triangle I AWAKE: I SEE BURNING SHADOWS [9] offset by [SONG: 7]
"Waves That I Came To See", mediated by SWORD. This triangle is entirely of
my fashioning; it is made up of my moves.

Referring back to the 'parsing' which leads to ...BURNING SHADOWS, there is
::Holiness shall find the night::. This is in contrast to the association
of the song with the self-immolation of the Cathars. My attempt here is to
create tension through the introduction of feminine symbols out of which
some feeling sense may arise, uncomfortable as it may be.

As for music, in general, it's greatest import to me is in it's unification
of spirit and soul. Hopefully, those who were inspired to dig deeply into
the sound of my move [at 7] will have had gained some taste of this.

***

The SONG is offset, in our final triangle, by WHO WOULD HEAR ME mediated by
SWORD.

Who would hear my song might be a better way to put it! Does this describe
something of the crisis of manhood? Our song of idealism soon rings
incapable, our song(s) of careerism soon ring incapable, our songs of
marriage soon ring incapable, our song of escape soon rings incapable, our
song of, finally of goodness, may ring incapable. Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde
expresses this bifurcation of sensibility. It seemed so true...yesterday.

Yet, out of the song of falseness rings something true, yes? This falseness
is a man's darkness, his demonic angel, the compensation to the light
bearing angel, for many, we are confronted by the face of our demons. In
this way, doing this shadow work, are we "true to life to its conclusion"?

This is the paradox of our individual song and how we may decide to jump
into the fire both as a sacrifice of our ideals and for their protection.
Our shadows may burn but out of that fire...

a new song.

***

Finally, there is the one triangle not mediated by SWORD and which, when
joined with the first triangle I described, forms a square, a quaternity.

Here PECULIAR PEOPLE offsets THREE STRANGE ANGELS and is mediated by NICHE
OF THE LANCE, itself directly an echo of SWORD. (If where the sword or
lance 'goes' can be said to be an echo!)

I am not myself attracted to placing the Saints and the Poets on a pedestal
of suffering and redemption to which we can only aspire. :^|  Rilke himself
describes coming to consciousness as "daywork", hard daywork, and this is
the stuff of Saints, poets, and you and me.

There is nothing peculiar about being wounded. Or wounded men. Or wounded
people. The SWORD in 8 expresses both the instrument of wounding and the
discrimination and feeling necessary to be redeemed, and not surprisingly
it is central to this game, in the central position, and at the crossroads.

Do we not all have our cross to bear?

But, as much as I would agree with Charles's explanation of *lovely* being
in some way Love's human and truthful expression, I see this as the work of
all of us, and what strikes me as peculiar, is my refusal to deal with the
darkness, the burning shadows, the falsity of my old, tired, songs.

***

Stephen places MOVE 9, a picture in position 6. It goes into position six
to formulate new meta-positional symbols of wholeness, but it is for
Charles to draw out the final squares and let this bird fly free!

I place a picture of the infant girl, in position 6.

*She is climbing up, taking a step, but one foot is on the ground.*

I know this young lady. She is a daughter of close friends. She is very
wise for her age. For our purposes, her name is Sophie.

***

Your move my friend Charles.

Stephen

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Mon Apr 01 22:56:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: On Buber dialogs
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 12:56:33 +0200

Robert,
first of all, thank you for the lovely Buber citate:
>>
        There is genuine dialogue -no matter whether spoken or silent-
        where each of the participants really has in mind the other or
        others in their present and particular being and turns to them
        with the intention of establishing a living mutual relation ...
<<
Of  course I'd like to turn to you intending to engage in a living mutual re-
lation. But how do I get in mind "you in your *present* and particular being"
given only impressions I've got days before - because of several time lags in-
herent in geography as well as technicalities of the distribution process?
Addreesing you I've to rely on what you wrote - on Friday I was struck by hea-
ring you speak in a soft, soothing timbre lulling me into refraining from ar-
gumenting this way - indeed, into letting go instead of responding...
This magic has gone today, so I'm thrown back to your last words:

>>     It's time for me to send this off and prepare for my classes.

indicating - for me at least - you'll undergo some experiences far beyond my
being able to follow.
So you can't be, by whatever means, that Robert again, whom I met on Friday
and whom I have in mind responding.
So my trying to talk/argue to you per se can't meet Buber's criteria of
authenticity.
On the other hand, we know of exchanges of letters having entered the Fame hall
of literature for their authenticity where the parties have met face-to-face...

Let me put it thus:
Buber's criteria are too tight to be applicable for (even e-)letters,but authen-
ticity of an exchange in writing can be decided by pragmatic analysis (in the
sense of PEIRCE) of a long run of dialog text.
And so there may be programs displaying the Rogers trias - as a corollary...

A la prochaine
Mila

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From KHGWIN@AOL.COM Tue Apr 02 10:32:04 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Whispers?
From: Kathleen Gwin <KHGWIN@AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 17:32:04 -0500

I am most intrigued by the lurkers. Every time I post to a list I cannot help
but read it through their eyes, imagining myself in a movie of sorts, my
letter being read by the crowd, but only being commented on by the
characters... Or, when I'm less profound, I'm in an open street theatre,
people passing by on the avenue, looking for a while, then going on about
their business. But who are we, the 'actors'? Who has written our impromptu
play, what is the point that we are searching for, I suppose we could flip to
the last page of the book, but then we'd have nothing to do for the rest of
the afternoon.
Kathleen

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From vicki@BGA.COM Tue Apr 02 15:30:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Don't call me a lurker!
From: Vicki Colker <vicki@BGA.COM>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 21:30:19 -0600

Please don't throw me in a bin with the lurkers!  I've never wanted to be a
member of the chorus:  I always wanted a speaking role, and a big one at
that.

I'm Vicki, a redhead in Austin, Texas.  Unlike many of you, I have no
formal training in psychology/therapy/social work.  My background is in
writing and marketing, with serious interests in poetry, philosophical
concepts and alternative health.

However, since entering the world of the Internet (and what an incredible
world it is!) I have become more and more fascinated with relationships as
they  evolve on-line, and strongly convinced that this medium is
transforming culture in ways beyond our current comprehension.  Now I find
myself considering the nature of reality, particularly in relationships.  I
wonder how the greater lack of prejudice on-line (can't see, can't hear,
can't pre-judge) influences relationships, both initially and long-term.
And how are we to discern between appropriate posturing on-line and
downright artifice?

I am eager to meet more of you, share ideas and learn.

Vicki

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Tue Apr 02 16:44:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe..
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:44:43 -0500

Perhaps I share my reason for lurking with some other people in Psybernet..

I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv
groups..  I've cut a deal with my ISP that I'll put up the listserv software
and manage it for him, in exchange for commercial space and anonymous ftp
services..  So a discussion of the psychology of the participants of
listserv groups would be very useful for me, since I'll be managing and
owning several in the not so distant future.

I haven't seen anything about the psychology of participation in a listserv.
On the other hand, I have seen statements that this is to be self-help,
group therapy list, complete with people with a professional background in
Psychology and therapy.  Given that most self-help groups are by nature
anonymous, and this list isn't ... Given that self-help isn't something that
can be done with a mixture of people that believe that they have
professional qualification's and are therefore more qualified than the other
members of the group, and given the backdrop of a game designed to plumb the
depths of conciousness, I have to wonder what sort of flame wars and
personal attacks are going to surface here.

Given the definition of this group, I think that I have to be lurker for a
while until I can get a feel what what is the real reason for this group.
So far there doesn't seem to be a reason, but several, all that work at
cross-purposes with each other, and no participation in any discussion on
the psychology of participants of listserv groups...

I'll hang around a while longer and see if anyone actually starts to discuss
the psychology of listserv groups, but I'm not about to participate in a
free for all, non-anonymous, self-help, group therapy session with a mixture
of professional and amatuer therapists and no focused goals.  I'm on the
verge of unsubscribing, since I'm not getting what I was looking for..

PS.  This isn't intended to be flame bait.

Wilbur Streett

---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Tue Apr 02 18:41:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: a triple knot...
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:41:09 -0800

Psyberians:

I try to imagine what it must be like to open up one of the "PLG" posts in
mid-stream, so to speak, perhaps not having followed the Game at the
beginning, but wanting to drop by as it developed -- or coming onto the
list in the last day or two, with only a brief mention of a Game of some
kind in Walter's introductory post to orient you.  And I feel a little
daunted.

I imagine it as feeling something like coming across a triple knot, perhaps
half wanting to untie it, half not knowing why one should.  Because these
posts are in fact triply complex: first, because the Game itself takes some
understanding; second, because the way Stephen and I have played this
particular Game has been unusually complex in and of itself, and third
because coming in some time in the middle of a complex conversation adds
further complexity to the situation...  So I'd like to untie things a
little, explain a bit... and offer you some resources if you'd like to move
further into it.

There was a quiet spell on the list over Christmas -- the usual "Christmas
lull" perhaps, except that it seemed to extend from somewhat earlier than
one might expect until well after the holiday season was over.  Stephen
broke the silence with a flurry of posts in which, among other things, he
mentioned that I had mentioned earlier that I had been working on an
on-line Game with therapeutic overtones, and asked me to tell more...

With Walter's warm encouragement, we decided to play a Game to explore the
symbolism of a list member's dream -- but thought it might be wise to play
one round of a "regular" Game first -- ie, one that was not therapeutically
oriented or concerned with a specific dream.  Stephen volunteered to play a
Game with me, and the "PLG" posts began...

The Games themselves are pretty simple: you have a board (the WaterBird
board is one of several) with numbered circles and lines connecting them,
and the players take turns "naming" ideas to the circles in such a way that
associations between the ideas can be read along the lines connecting the
circles.  A child can do it -- she plays "jump", her friend plays "moon",
she plays "green cheese".  But things get more complex (knot #1) when you
play not just for associations between ideas, but for "richness" or "depth"
of associations.  The thing here is that if two linked moves refer to ideas
that have a very special kind of "fit" or "twinning" between them, holding
both of them in the mind in a contemplative sort of way *at the same time*
can give you a sort of mental "stereo effect" which is really quite
wonderful.

But our Game here was in some ways more than usually difficult to follow
(knot #2) because of the styles of play Stephen and I brought to the Game:
Stephen in particular made his moves very intuitively (so that the links
were present but sometimes hidden), and both of us -- and a few list
members besides -- poured a considerable amount of "amplification" into the
process, in the form of extended posts about our insights, personal
memories and archetypal understandings while playing the Game...  All of
which made for a Game that must run close to 40 pages...

And (knot #3) you may have stumbled into the middle of all this unawares...

*

I hope the above explains some of what has been going on in those "PLG"
posts a little better.  I will be updating my "summary" of the Game to
include its ending quite soon, and posting it to the list, and I believe
Stephen has a similar intention to post his own overview...  The two posts
will almost certainly come at our Game from very different angles, and it
should be interesting to see where they overlap and where they most clearly
diverge...

If you want to go deeper into it, the full text of our Game can be found on
Stephen's web pages, beginning at:

>>>     http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html

There are some much shorter Games you can read at the HipBone Homepage:

>>>     http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/index.html

One of them is a light-hearted historical romp through various royal
beheadings and exhumations, one of them takes a serious look at the
similarities between Yeats and Jung, and one of them is a sample game --
which I posted to this list a while back -- written to illustrate how a
"dream" Game might work.

And if you want to go deeper still, there is a low-volume list you can join
-- Walter asked me to post some information on this -- which is devoted to
"spirituality in games" in general, and to the design of variants on
Hermann Hesse's *Glass Bead Game* in particular.  You can find a detailed
list description at:

>>>     http://drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu/~jae/magister.html

To subscribe, just drop me e-mail saying that's what you'd like to do.

*

Now that the first ("regular") Game is over, I'd suggest we take a break
before diving into a dream Game.  Let's allow the new members to settle in,
give the new threads time to weave their magic, and *begin* thinking about
suitable dreams over the next couple or three weeks...

Hoping this helps,



--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Tue Apr 02 18:41:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PLG Move 10
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:41:26 -0800

Stephen, Walter, all:

Here is the final move in our Game...

*

The song of the troubador in 7 is the cry of every questing soul: "Ah waves
say unto me / Why my lover lingers away from me"...  More specifically, it
is the cry of the Languedoc, of the people who gave us the troubadors and
Catharism, of an emergent feminine sensibility in the masculine and brutal
world of the crusades...

Stephen links the burning shadows at 9 with the burning of the Cathar
stronghold of Montesgur -- yet there is not only an immolation, but also an
awakening here.

In position 6, we have a child, Sophie, taking a monumental step.  Sophie,
Sophia, is named for the feminine principle of wisdom, who in gnostic
mythology is the redemptrix of man: in one version of the myth, she takes
form as a prostitute: she saves man by leading him into his body, into his
armor, his "locked" musculature, into his feelings.

These are the three positions to which my final move in position 10 must link.

*

I would like, though, to echo at this end of the board in move 10, the
quotation from Hopkins at the beginning in 1, and it is another Hopkins
quote that I will play here:

Charles plays Move 10, "a heart's-clarion" in position 10.

*

                          knife and wound
                                4
                              * |**
                            *   | ***
                          *     |  ****
                        *       |   *****
                      *         |    ******
                    *           |     *******
        peculiar people         |      ***** sophie
                2---------------|---------------6
              * | **            |        *******| *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
niche of        |             [sword]*****  I awake: I see    a heart's
1---------------|---------------8---------------9-------------10
the lance       |             **|******    burning shadows,   clarion
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
      three strange angels      |    my lover lingers away from me
                3---------------|-------********7
                  *             |      ********
                    *           |     *******
                      *         |    ******
                        *       |   *****
                          *     |  ****
                            *   | ***
                       who...would hear me?
                                5

*

The phrase comes from Hopkins' great poem, "That Nature is a Heraclitean
Fire and of the Comfort of the Resurrection".  Hopkins has just described
at some length how insignificant the human individual is in the greater
sweep of things, whom "death blots black out; nor mark / Is any of him at
all so stark / But vastness blurs and time beats level."  Then, in a
commanding voice, "Enough!" he writes, "the Resurrection, / a heart's
clarion!"

Stephen's "burning shadows" I would link specifically to Hopkins' phrase
"world's wildfire, leave but ash"...  But I will leave it to each of you to
look up the poem if you so choose, and say only that it is both tough and
wonderful.

*

Saint Paul speaks of the "resurrection body"...  and as a gnosticizing poet
myself, I view this body as existing not in some "afterlife" heaven, but in
this heaven here now.  It is the body into which Sophie leads us, into
which our immolation awakens us -- the body, also, in which we greet the
Beloved we yearned for...

But it is not resurrection itself, but the "heart's-clarion" announcing it
which this move invokes...

< end of move >

*

With this final move, the Game ends.  I am most grateful to Stephen for
playing it with me, and to Walter for inviting us to play it on list.

This particular Game began with three strange angels knocking at a door: I
trust we have opened that door a little.

I bow thrice in all directions.


--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Tue Apr 02 18:55:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Another Psyber-newbie
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:55:01 +0200

Hi Walter,
Thank you for introducing me to more and more newcomers.
Having set the automaton to ACK, I get current numbers as a by-product.

>>
So how is it so far for you here?  I hope you are still here --
though some are leaving.
<<
As I told Robert today, on Friday I had some first exp in hearing your e-mail
voices - not quite whispering, but soothing and lulling me out of argumentation
composure. It was the first sudden relaxation exp since I underwent Rogers ther-
apy first. It's a pity you could not see me calm down instantly - that sudden I
wasn't able to e-mail a short notice of what was happening
Proposed goal: short codes for body exps.
It may not always easy to decide quickly if I'm here, but rest assured I'm pre-
sent on workdays - although there'll be an Easter leave.


>>
Wow.  That means that this list must have some relevance to you
as that sort of professional development is one of its purposes.
<<
Good luck I've fonud it - via NEW LISTS.

>>
Yet I see a face-to-face group!   I enjoyed my attempt to see
this gathering more as described in Robert's poem:  "Silence is a
Time for Whispering" , but I return all too easily to a drier
image of the large quiet room, where you and I are now
whispering.  Being the list owner I see that several have left as
we gather . . . I have no idea who they are . . . and have learnt
that this is OK here in cyberspace -- in a face-to-face group it
would be disturbing.
<<
True, group dynamics appears in other vestiges than in F-F-comm.
Hopefully group members here have their own feet to stand on.
I could tell you on more or less subtle leadership in other lists.
(Case stories.)

>>
What of the silence here . . . what are we learning from that?  I
am learning from it.  One thing I learn is about its intensity
_for me_.  It is as if I hear it all day!<<
Maybe we've got different internal models of psyberspace in general.
Mine is: Whose impact on me I sense, is counted to exist.
Lurkers are not.
I'm aware of the similarity of this model to academic publication race;
but -sorry- there's no semantics to  silence.

>>
> If there's an urge to pour out your heart to me instantly, please feel free
> to write to me in private. I'll try to respond asap.

I will send you a copy of this . . . but I would really
appreciate our continued discussion, to be in the open  . . .
space -- list -- group?
<<
I too. The invitation was for those having problems they wish to tell
instantly, *not* for group talk...
About "asap": As I'm located near Bonn, Germany, there are six hours
difference in local time between the majority of psyberers and myself...

>>
What sort of net counselling were you hoping to develop?  Have
you had exp in face-to-face or on the net counselling?  What do
you envisage?
<<
I'm after doing some Rogers-type counseling I learned during a
wild and beautiful therapy. I've had some success in F-F-counseling
as well as via letters. Online counseling I've yet to explore and to
train; but if having built a relationship, there are signs it might work,
too.
Perhaps I might go to the list for supervision?
I'm envisaging semi-automation of the counseling process, too; it's the dis-
cussion with the list that have brought forth some small progress.

I'll take some leave for Easter, responding last to today's digest.
Best wishes to the list,
Mila

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Tue Apr 02 23:19:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe..
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:19:28 +0200

Wilbur,
I'm fascinated by the sheer frankness of your msg. Mind to step thru it with me?

>>>
I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv
groups..  I've cut a deal with my ISP that I'll put up the listserv software
and manage it for him, in exchange for commercial space and anonymous ftp
services..  So a discussion of the psychology of the participants of
listserv groups would be very useful for me, since I'll be managing and
owning several in the not so distant future.
<<<
Wow, a deal that opens you your own research facility. I'd like to have a look
into it, if you don't mind to give me the access data to some list of yours.
(in private, if you'd like to)

>>>
I haven't seen anything about the psychology of participation in a listserv.
<<<
As regards formal papers,not to mention books, so do I.As you might have spotted
in my response to Robert, I might tell you a few case stories on informal lea-
dership in lists from which we could work out setups for sociological experi-
ments within lists, if that's something you're after.

>>>
On the other hand, I have seen statements that this is to be self-help,
group therapy list, complete with people with a professional background in
Psychology and therapy.
<<<
It's to be a list counterpart of facilitated *self-exp* groups, *no* self-help
one. Its purpose is to let you *feel* modes of comm in cyberspace.

>>>
[....]Given that most self-help groups are by nature
anonymous, and this list isn't ... Given that self-help isn't something that
can be done with a mixture of people that believe that they have
professional qualification's and are therefore more qualified than the other
members of the group, and given the backdrop of a game designed to plumb the
depths of conciousness, I have to wonder what sort of flame wars and
personal attacks are going to surface here.
<<<
If you stress the "self-*help* premise that much, chances are you could miss
some of the playful atmosphere here around...
Mind to tell me more about your concerns and experiences on flame( war)s?
Sounds to me as if you've formed already some hypotheses regarding their ori-
gin. If so, sharing them would be a step forward to rigorous setup of your to-
pic: Listserv Social psychology.
BTW, while you're right in emphasizing (partial) anonymity of self-help groups/
lists, professional facilitation isn't necessary for them. Some of the best-run
groups arose out of informal meetings of laypersons sharing a problem which came
together via an ad! It was only later on, that the group decided to have a pro
in the background for occasional counseling.

>>>
Given the definition of this group, I think that I have to be lurker for a
while until I can get a feel what what is the real reason for this group.
<<<
Need there be a unique reason, fixed in advance ??

>>>
So far there doesn't seem to be a reason, but several, all that work at
cross-purposes with each other, and no participation in any discussion on
the psychology of participants of listserv groups...
<<<
For that point, I feel and share your disappointment. I consider your topic hot-
new.

>>>
I'll hang around a while longer and see if anyone actually starts to discuss
the psychology of listserv groups, but I'm not about to participate in a
free for all, non-anonymous, self-help, group therapy session with a mixture
of professional and amatuer therapists and no focused goals.  I'm on the
verge of unsubscribing, since I'm not getting what I was looking for..
<<<
Great you *voiced* your disappointment, instead of unsubbing silently; so we've
got a chance to learn from you. THANK you for this your msg.

>>PS.  This isn't intended to be flame bait.
Hope you feel understood by me.
You're welcome here - and perhaps we can establish a thread on your topic.

Hope you'll have a sunny Easter time!
Mila (pr. mee-lah)

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed Apr 03 01:14:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Touching a whisper
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:14:23 GMT

Robert and all,

> All these new
> psyberians, some visiting, some window shopping, and probably a few moving
> into the neighbourhood in hopes that they build a new home (like myself). I
> picture life in a _list_ as somewhat like living in a town that has a high
> percentage of temporary residents. A transient community on a backwater road
> that is more suited to motorcycle mechanics practising a zen moment.

That fits as you say it, though I had not seen it. The
imagination throws up images that we have no say over, this
"place" and our psyche evokes them . . . that is why I like to
call it psyberspace.

Just as I am writing Kathleen has come in with the image street
theatre -- that fits too (for me?).  My image of the conference
hall is fading -- I guess that was such a strong image as it cast
me so squarely in the role of facilitator.  What does a
facilitator do in a town?  I the theatre?

> Mila and Nanci have spoken to all of us
> casting their communication ripples into the pond of this neophyte
> community. The old psyber-l disappeared with the opening of the gates.

We are in a new dimension -- perhaps building a new town where
some old timers lived before the influx.

> Thankfully, the residents of the previous life of psyber-l have stayed to
> share this new life (re-incarnation of a list). It isn't so silent after all.

Most have -- and most were lurkers and still are.  There is
always the mystery of what keeps them here.  Like Kathleen I put
myself into their shoes -- but the mystery never goes away.

> We're thinking before opening our mouths. It's very different when you've
> been invited into someone's home (this isn't a new list), than if you've
> arrived in a new trailer home park at the same time as everyone else. As we
> reach the point of committing our voices to dialogue (at least for a few
> moments) we do so out of faith and hope that our voices belong here. Until
> then we remain silent. If the community doesn't meet our hoped for
> expectations, we either unsub or forget about group's existence until it
> becomes a mailbox problem.

And that all fits too . . . it remains a conjecture, however
close to the truth.

> We exist on several planes at the same
> time and are different beings on each plane. The only connection from one
> plane to the other is the _soul_ which defines each of us. <<We are not our
> bodies. We are not our minds.>> (Eknath Easwaran - Meditation)

I love the more concrete manifestation of being on different
planes that being here gives me.  Perhaps we do live on many
planes at once -- this seems to be a way of making visible one
that is usually hidden.

> Old metaphors can't fit. I wonder if we couldn't find a myth that is apropos
> for the situation.

Do we die to the world and find ourselves born in the new
dimension?  Outside of space and time -- (alluding to Mila's post
on how we grapple with time here)  -- could the myth be found in
our stories of the afterworld?  Hades?


> Maybe, the silence is not so silent. Like a voiced message, we experience,
> we reflect, we worry, we build, we react, we suffer, and we find ourselves
> faced yet once again with ourselves. Where ever I go, there I am.

Ah yes!

> ps - Hi Nanci! No, whispering isn't necessary. Let your voice ring with its
> songs for us. Welcome! It's good to have another join with me on this new
> journey of awakening.

The image that comes now is of the dawn (I think it was in the
old movie musical of Porgy and Bess)  first there are whispers
and they build and build until there is the full burst of song!


Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 03 01:54:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Storm, I need to speak ...
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 07:54:16 -0600

Walter, Steve and other Psyberians,

        Sunday (yesterday) I learned of the suicide death of a cyberworld
friend who didn't even know that I existed.  As a lurker on the list that he
established, I built myself a silent buddy.  Today, I wish that I hadn't
been so silent.  Steve and Walter, I know that you were active members of
this group in its initial stages, and have been an active participant on
Matt's list since its conception last October. I hesitated to write to you
on the other list because of my silence there. I extend my thoughts to you
as a small comfort for a friend lost.

        I wrote a post to that list then trashed it. Loss seems to be as
painful here on the 'net as it does in physical time and space ... maybe
more so since we often put up fewer walls.

... It's the next day (Tuesday) already. I had a real shitty sleep plagued
with terrible dreams. Relationships online are real. Soul is evident in our
words to each other.

        Welcome to the newest members. I'll post again later to speak with
you about your various concerns and opinions.

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From vicki@BGA.COM Wed Apr 03 02:47:35 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The possibility of authenticity. [Was: Don't call me a
              lurker!]
From: Vicki Colker <vicki@BGA.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:47:35 -0600

Dear Walter,

Thank you for your warm welcome!  (Though I might add I never saw my post
appear on the list . . .)

>Indeed!  It seems we are on a _plane_ where we can be in a new
>town or on a theatre at the same time.  How can we establish what
>is real?

Since we always live multiple existences simultaneously, we *should* be
skilled at this deduction.  However, Psyberia is new territory, it seems,
with a reality all its own.

>A theme is emerging on this nature of reality, and no
>wonder . . .

Indeed.  I have long held an interest in the nature of reality in everyday
time and space.  As a consequence of my online life, my beliefs have become
snarled and my questions amass.

>> And how are we to discern between appropriate posturing >>on-line and
>>downright artifice?

>I am intrigued that you oppose artifice with appropriate
>posturing . . . is the possibility of _authenticity_ here for
>you?

Why, Walter. . . I'd be the last to argue against sweet augmentation or
innocent masquerade.  After all, I believe mascara is one of the world's
great inventions, after perhaps air conditioning.  But posturing is a
simple assumption of a pose:  ones *authentic* self, but with a different
attitude or edge, one that perhaps a person can more easily assume online
without the constraints of society or shyness.  "Downright artifice," as I
so Texanly phrased it, is sheer deception with, as I see it, the intent to
benefit at the deceived's expense.  If all players are aware of the
impersonation, and agree upon such, then all is fair.

My question is:  how can we determine the degree of artifice or
authenticity without the constructs within which we normally make such
judgments?

Vicki
>
>_____________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
>http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L

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From vicki@BGA.COM Wed Apr 03 02:51:07 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe..
From: Vicki Colker <vicki@BGA.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 08:51:07 -0600

Wilbur,

>I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv
>groups..

Don't unsub yet!  I joined for the same reason.  I'm sure we're not the
only ones.

Vicki

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From hoon@APK.NET Wed Apr 03 03:16:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Storm, I need to speak ...
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 10:16:45 -0500

Robert,

The passing of the list originator of Net_Dynamics came as shocking blow to
us all.

That list too is involved in the exploration of the psychological dynamics
of the internet. There too the content <-> process and social imperative
<-> goal imperative are the among the most evident polarities.

However, with so much intellectually up in the air there and here, the
feeling space and tone that has arisen in the aftermath of the suicide of
*community member* of Net_Dynamics suggests, to me, simply that deep
community is purchased at the sacrifice of the more narrow expectations
about a mailing list working toward definate concrete 'ends'.

>Loss seems to be as
>painful here on the 'net as it does in physical time and space ... maybe
>more so since we often put up fewer walls.

Whether or not this is true, we do well to keep in mind as we play on this
stage that human beings made up of flesh and blood are doing the typing at
their end of the network.

And, that the soul we bring to our being here is the stuff of our
incarnation and it's becoming in a particular space and time, no matter how
we may choose to act out alternative persona(s), roles, and, experiment
with identity online.

er, IMO


Best to all,

Stephen

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed Apr 03 03:51:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: The possibility of authenticity. [Was: Don't call me a lurker!]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 15:51:15 GMT

Hi Vicki

> And how are we to discern between appropriate posturing on-line and
> downright artifice?

Indeed!  It seems we are on a _plane_ where we can be in a new
town or on a theatre at the same time.  How can we establish what
is real?  A theme is emerging on this nature of reality, and no
wonder . . .

I am intrigued that you oppose artifice with appropriate
posturing . . . is the possibility of _authenticity_ here for
you?

> I am eager to meet more of you, share ideas and learn.

Welcome.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From hoon@APK.NET Wed Apr 03 05:21:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PLG: Waterbird wrap
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:21:43 -0500

Greetings,

I have posted the final Waterbird Board for the game Charles and I have
been playing.

http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG5.html

I am grateful to Charles for his bringing the game to this space and
playing with me and his forebearance.

I would encourage my fellow Psyberians to comment and recommend that they
start their subject lines with: PLG to help identify the post's point of
reference.

***

A question, among many, is just what is the feeling-full and feminine
import of the internet?

Is all of this 'relating' going on in Cyberspace an element of the natural
collective compensation favoring greater eros and soul?

Or is it a fool's paradise? <|:-0

Old timers here no where I stand.

Praising Sophie,

Stephen

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From stever@southern.co.nz Wed Apr 03 14:36:37 1996
To: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: forwarded mail
From: Steve Rennell <stever@southern.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:36:37 +1200

>From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz  Fri Mar 29 14:34:06 1996
Received: from galadriel.otago.ac.nz (galadriel.otago.ac.nz [139.80.64.81]) by kalessin.southern.co.nz (8.6.11/8.6.6.Beta6) with ESMTP id OAA24095 for <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>; Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:34:03 +1200
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Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:34:34 +1200 (NZST)
X-Sender: ou006418@brandywine.otago.ac.nz
Message-Id: <v01530501ad81a42599e1@[139.80.100.112]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
From: tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Tama.Neill)
Subject: Tama writes BACK!!

 HELLO!!

 I guessed ya noticed that I have been having even less time to talk,  well
thats what ya get for being BUSY..
  Well Riding to paris opened last night( the play that I'm in),  it was
pretty sucessful,  the newspaper gave it an all round good review,  the
audience was receptive although some bits should of been funnier But I
think that is because of the main actress & her trying to be too intense
and not giveing a vary varied preformance of light & dark-not diff texture
of speech it's all to intense so I don't think the audience quite knows
whether they are supposed to laugh.There will be a video taped sometime,  &
when I can get my hands on a copy I'll post it to ya.Hey have you taped all
the New Simpsons,  when it finishes perhaps I could send you some tapes,
Cause I have only seen about 3.
  Well Jap is not going that well I have got behind because of this play
bisness,  so I will only do waht I have to do now.
  Kates busy,  so I have not seen her much just brief hello's & chats,
maybe go out with her to a film & a play or two though.Were still a getting
to know each other & need to go out more...
Well here's who Kate is-Hold onto your hats cause it's another one of those
posts:

> Hello,
>
> What a weekend,  I feel slightly stunned,  Unreal,  been so BUSY that now I
> am only just starting to contemplate.
>   Let me recap,  I told you about my date with Kate,  well that went fine &
> groovy,  The 3D's & the Chills were supersonically beautiful,  swish,  The
> Clean were crisp too.It wsa pretty laid back not to much moshing,  no need
> to throw myself into the maelstrom of heavy bodies,   when I have Kate to
> attend to,  although I went off on the odd foray of a dance,  she hadin't
> had enuff to drink to dance + her one of her toenails is ripped off,  so
> she didi'nt want to be stepped on.
>   Well she was beuatiful,  she had a jasmin flower,  inhale,  crisp
> aromatic fragence, Dressed in a black dress with her deep blue cordero
> jacket & curve hugging Elastica top...
>   She found an old Flat mate shes gonna go & try some Magic Musshies,  I
> might join her...
> We talked,  she has lived in Sydney for the last 6 yrs,   but she was
> raised in Wellington.She is 2nd year,  She was in a Eng tutorial last year,
> you can't imagine how different she is when you get to know her rather
> than just the impression I got of her as a bright intelligent,  claer
> thinking,   shy over achiever.She thinks shes unmotivated-well she has
> smoked quite a bit of Mull-(the Sydney term for Marajuana).Shes taking
> theatre studies,  inglish,  Chinese History & political sciences papers.She
> has a cool collection of music.Lady Madonna is her theme song at the
> mo-Lady Madonna,  children at her feet,  trying to make ends meet.Shes
> attracted to intelligent guys,  one she wnet out with because he was
> amusing,  well he was clumsy he bumped his head going into th emini van off
> the plan,  also another guy,  real bright but as it happens imature,  he
> has won Sale of the Century & Mastermind-(david bowie interest in
> Cornflakes,  hes studinf Shortland st now.) He apprently to her to a coffe
> shop & tryted to get her to play table footbal with coins,  ending hitting
> lots of people.
>   Kate has Italian heritage,  she is smoothe,  supple,  dark tresses of
> hair,  ivory smooth skin,  blue eyes,  Hour glass figure,  perhaps-no you
> would have to meet her.
>   Click-concversation wow,  she excites & interests.I guessed right she isa
> Leo,  with pieces rising,  she is also a Fire Dragon-like me in Chinese
> Astrology..
>   Well after the concert we went & had a hot drink & talked,  then taxied
> home,  it started to piss down,  I could of kissed her good night,  but the
> moment was too fragile to grasp.
>   After a very dragging rehersal I picked her up from her flat,  which is
> beautiful.Then we went to Claire flat warming where there were not many
> interesting people & sad watered down Speights,  so we went & bought a
> bottle of red wine each,  a wandered the Botanic Gardens admireg the
> night.We went back to C's & a good friend Danny came along,  & we went to
> K's Flat,  & hung out with another falt mate listened to music laughed
> drank wine,  ate pizza.We traced each other's life lines on hands.I held
> her hand & put my arm around her I was not that sloshed.We went & woke up
> Claire cause we left our bags in her room,  she got a fight-3am in the
> morning.Danny got a Taxi I had my bike,  we had one or 2 good bye kisses.I
> wanted to saty but hger furniture had not arrived & she only had a small
> matress & duvae I wanted sleep,  I malingere then left saying I was happy &
> half alsleep rode home.Haveing to get up & rehearse.
>   So Now I have lots to do,  Japanese test,  assignment,   film studies
> ass,  Drama crit review of a play,  Eng Essay,  find a script for 3 min
> solo preformance.Rehearse ever night to wednesday,  then the show goes on
> from Thursday night till Sunday night.
>   How are you mate?
>   I wish I had the ticket your friend had so Kate could come with us...
> Oh well,  I want to tell everyone,  but that is not a good idea at all,  so
> I just take it slowly,  & get to know her.
>   Anyway Im busy,  but Joyful too...

Well I even started composing poetry,  she pretty special,  but where still
getting to know each other,  which takes time,  which we don't really have
being both  involved in Drama + trying to get some uni wk done.
  I just have to relax & if it happens it happens,  but i'm not talking
about being apathetic,  more like focus on myself & the rest will follow,
I hope so,  It's all rather confuseing...
it's fun in a strange way though...

Well the Dream idea did get left by the wayside,  I tried to get it going
again but i seemed to be ignored, + I was very busy any way so it did not
really matter,  anote time perhaps.

I have been listening,  not lurking,  I'm not Golem...
Quite interesting things beinfg discussed I would join in but my lifes full
enuff as it is,
  Well 3 more preformances to go of the play,  i think I might go out
afterwards.

Anyway best to everyone...
BYE people!!




                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"









From stever@southern.co.nz Wed Apr 03 14:36:39 1996
To: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: forwarded mail
From: Steve Rennell <stever@southern.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 14:36:39 +1200

>From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz  Mon Apr  1 10:32:41 1996
Received: from galadriel.otago.ac.nz (galadriel.otago.ac.nz [139.80.64.81]) by kalessin.southern.co.nz (8.6.11/8.6.6.Beta6) with ESMTP id KAA17425 for <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 10:32:33 +1200
Received: from [139.80.100.231] (ou100231.otago.ac.nz [139.80.100.231]) by galadriel.otago.ac.nz (8.7.1/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA20747 for <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>; Mon, 1 Apr 1996 10:32:52 +1200 (NZST)
X-Sender: ou006418@brandywine.otago.ac.nz
Message-Id: <v01530503ad84b911c83b@[139.80.100.231]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 10:35:41 +1200
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
From: tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Tama.Neill)
Subject: Open heart...

HI,

Well it's been a pretty emotionally full wkend,  It's not that often that I
cry with such intensity,
Margaret my granmother just died on saturday...
  Kate wont let me behind her barriers-doesn't want to get attachched-I'm
too much of a nice guy,  she wants a slimeball,  not someone to admire,
compliment hold her & hug her.Thats her loss...
But it FUCKED me off,   Soo frustrating I howled at her we had a big fight,
boy it was dramtic-fun though in a perverse toutured  way.
  I wrote her a poem last night,  I had a idea I'm gonna get 2 roses give
her one then burn mine with the poem ( fucked EH?)
  WEll life goes on,  especially with Magarets death ya gotta make the most
of life!!

Kinda like that Alanis Morisette song You Learn.Well I mean about Kate...

Well got my first funeral to go to later in the wk...

I write a bit more when I have time,

BYE...


                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"









From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed Apr 03 15:20:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe..
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 03:20:06 GMT

Hi  Wilbur

Interesting comments.  Challenging too.  I thought Mila's response met that
challenge with generosity!  Yes, this is a broad list -- a starting point or
stepping stone to other more focussed activity. Of course this may not be quite
what you want . . . but this list would not be doing its job if it was not of
practical value in discussing ethics / skills / of list ownership.  I am amazed
how when I do the technical setting up of lists how I am required to make
decisions that will influence the list space -- I recently wrote about that
here,  likening it to being an architect of cyberspace.

One such decision is the point you raise -- degree of anonymity to aim for -- a
psychological question to be sure. -- lets say more in a separate thread.

> So a discussion of the psychology of the participants of
> listserv groups would be very useful for me, since I'll be managing and
> owning several in the not so distant future.

What sort of things?

> I'll hang around a while longer and see if anyone actually starts to discuss
> the psychology of listserv groups, but I'm not about to participate in a
> free for all, non-anonymous, self-help, group therapy session with a mixture
> of professional and amatuer therapists and no focused goals.  I'm on the
> verge of unsubscribing, since I'm not getting what I was looking for..
>
> PS.  This isn't intended to be flame bait.

I appreciate that and am responding in kind.  There are indeed many things
happening here, including complex human interaction, probably full of overt and
covert feelings and hidden and unconscious meanings which will get misconstrued!
In the midst of that we can share our learning!

I want to say more:

I sense your fear of chaos, flames and purposeless degeneration.  Fair enough.
It is our job here -- mine in particular -- to attend in such a way that tit
does not happen.  If we can learn to do it here we can bring that to other
lists.

The container, the boundary, the holding space of this list will need to be
secure enough to enable these intensities to have their life.  How can we do
that?  One thing is respect -- valuing and respecting our diversity, including
each others fear and anger.

To be conscious of our focus.  I expect this list to be true to its stated
purpose.  It is broad and complex, it encompasses depth psychology, experiential
learning and professional work in cyberspace.   The description of the list
states the focus clearly.  (send: get psyber-l.descript to have a look at it. )

We are doing it, our discussion on authentic dialogue, our reflections on
_readers_  (lurkers  :-) and now on our boundaries is to experientially learn
about the psychology of list, and to create the norms for this list.

Even as I write I am exploring how I can facilitate our work here, yet not fall
into defensiveness, or into persuasion, or into some sort of authority, (let
alone _artifice_ and inappropriate posturing!)  What ever the outcome . . . we
will all learn!

Wilbur, how does this sound to you?


walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Wed Apr 03 17:42:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe..
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 00:42:45 -0500

At 01:19 PM 4/2/96 +0200, you wrote:
>Wilbur,
>I'm fascinated by the sheer frankness of your msg. Mind to step thru it
with me?
>
>>>>
>I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv
>groups..  I've cut a deal with my ISP that I'll put up the listserv software
>and manage it for him, in exchange for commercial space and anonymous ftp
>services..  So a discussion of the psychology of the participants of
>listserv groups would be very useful for me, since I'll be managing and
>owning several in the not so distant future.
><<<
>Wow, a deal that opens you your own research facility. I'd like to have a look
>into it, if you don't mind to give me the access data to some list of yours.
>(in private, if you'd like to)
>

That's not the only research that I'm doing.  I'm creating a company to
commercialize a new computer interface, the human face.  I'm busy working to
put a human face on the computer that you can talk with "Face to Face".  I
intend to use the listserv groups as a mechanism in the development of the
cultural nexus about this technology.  I also intend to use it as a way to
help me understand the cultural issues involved in the application of this
technology.

I was hoping to have a substantive discussion about the things that are
necessary in the development of the culture of the listserv, and what sort's
of issues I can expect to have surface.  I'm quite confident in my ability
to create a listserv with the sort of culture where the effects of this new
technology can be discussed, but it couldn't hurt to have some discussion's
with others about the pitfalls of listserv ownershp and management.

>>>>
>I haven't seen anything about the psychology of participation in a listserv.
><<<
>As regards formal papers,not to mention books, so do I.As you might have
spotted
>in my response to Robert, I might tell you a few case stories on informal lea-
>dership in lists from which we could work out setups for sociological experi-
>ments within lists, if that's something you're after.
>

My life is a social experiment.  On the other hand, Sherry Turkle (sp?) is
something of a media celebrity based on "Life On The Screen" and as far as I
know, she isn't a "deep" thinker in this area.  I like to think that I have
a pretty good grasp of what is involved, having spent over $10,000 in online
charges in the last decade.

>>>>
>On the other hand, I have seen statements that this is to be self-help,
>group therapy list, complete with people with a professional background in
>Psychology and therapy.
><<<
>It's to be a list counterpart of facilitated *self-exp* groups, *no* self-help
>one. Its purpose is to let you *feel* modes of comm in cyberspace.
>

"Feel" modes of communication?  I have a very specific mode of
communication, I say what is on my mind.

>>>>
>[....]Given that most self-help groups are by nature
>anonymous, and this list isn't ... Given that self-help isn't something that
>can be done with a mixture of people that believe that they have
>professional qualification's and are therefore more qualified than the other
>members of the group, and given the backdrop of a game designed to plumb the
>depths of conciousness, I have to wonder what sort of flame wars and
>personal attacks are going to surface here.
><<<
>If you stress the "self-*help* premise that much, chances are you could miss
>some of the playful atmosphere here around...

I'm not here for entertainment.  I'm also not here for self-help.  I'm here
to get into the psychology of listserv groups.. (which by the private
email's, other's are also).

>Mind to tell me more about your concerns and experiences on flame( war)s?

While I could write volumes about flame wars, and have even started more
than my share, (ask Denise Caruso over at the New York Times..)  I'm not
going to get into that right now.  There are already too many different
thoughts going on in this message.. suffice it to say that flame wars happen
and are typically a waste of time and effort.  They typically happen between
people that believe that they are doing some public "good".

>Sounds to me as if you've formed already some hypotheses regarding their ori-
>gin. If so, sharing them would be a step forward to rigorous setup of your to-
>pic: Listserv Social psychology.

Righteous Indignation seems to be the cause of the good ones, the bad ones
are caused by ego and communcation problems.

>BTW, while you're right in emphasizing (partial) anonymity of self-help groups/
>lists, professional facilitation isn't necessary for them. Some of the best-run
>groups arose out of informal meetings of laypersons sharing a problem which
came
>together via an ad! It was only later on, that the group decided to have a pro
>in the background for occasional counseling.
>

All of the best groups are about people getting together with shared
interests.  Otherwise they are just people "hanging out" and wasting time.
My life is too short to simply "hang out".

>>>>
>Given the definition of this group, I think that I have to be lurker for a
>while until I can get a feel what what is the real reason for this group.
><<<
>Need there be a unique reason, fixed in advance ??
>

Focus?  Without focus, it degrades into noise.  When it degrades into noise,
it becomes a vehicle for personal agenda's, which by nature aren't the groups.

>>>>
>So far there doesn't seem to be a reason, but several, all that work at
>cross-purposes with each other, and no participation in any discussion on
>the psychology of participants of listserv groups...
><<<
>For that point, I feel and share your disappointment. I consider your topic
hot-
>new.

Not that new, but pretty hot.  I've been doing involved in on-line groups
for years and years, but only know are they something that the media is
catching up to.

>
>>>>
>I'll hang around a while longer and see if anyone actually starts to discuss
>the psychology of listserv groups, but I'm not about to participate in a
>free for all, non-anonymous, self-help, group therapy session with a mixture
>of professional and amatuer therapists and no focused goals.  I'm on the
>verge of unsubscribing, since I'm not getting what I was looking for..
><<<
>Great you *voiced* your disappointment, instead of unsubbing silently; so we've
>got a chance to learn from you. THANK you for this your msg.

You'll have to thank my parents, they taught me that attitude.

>
>>>PS.  This isn't intended to be flame bait.
>Hope you feel understood by me.
>You're welcome here - and perhaps we can establish a thread on your topic.
>

Thanks for the welcome, and I hope that we can establish a thread about the
psychology of listserv's, complete with the cultural context..

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From kegill@HALCYON.COM Wed Apr 03 19:40:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe..
From: "Kathy E. Gill" <kegill@HALCYON.COM>
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:40:44 -0800

As a *very* new list member (I found the list over the weekend), I wanted
to say that I had some of the same pre-conceptions about this list as
Wilbur ... that is, that the discussions would center around "the
psychology of the list."

=>I did not expect games ;-)

I am interested in this subject because I believe this medium has such
great potential to serve as a democratizing agent. On the other hand, if
lists become cliques of people who think in lock-step, then that potential
may vanish ... and its passing mean more division, less acceptance of
differences.

I know from personal experience that I *feel* as tho I know a few
individuals well .... even tho I have only written back-and-forth with them
over a period of time (days, weeks, months). A feeling of intimacy seems to
escalate --- but is it real or smoke?

I believe it is true that if we participate  long enough, the "real" us
will come out thru our words and deeds! But what about all those folks who
lurk -- are they voyueaurs (?sp?) ... what needs are they fulfilling by
*watching*?

Enough ...

FYI, I am a public affairs professional and part-time trainer,
communications consultant,  and webmaster ... living in the land of lattes
(suburban Seattle).

Kathy E. Gill

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From kegill@HALCYON.COM Wed Apr 03 22:07:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Evolution of discussion lists (forward)
From: "Kathy E. Gill" <kegill@HALCYON.COM>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 02:07:50 -0800

Interesting (humorous) discussion of the evolution of discussion lists ....
Kathy

----------------Begin forwarded message --------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 02:10:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Laugh Of The Day - Tue, Apr 02 1996
Sender: lotd-approval@world.std.com
To: lotd@world.std.com

******************************************************************************
        Be sure to visit LaughWEB (http://www.misty.com/laughweb/)
******************************************************************************

*File Description: The Natural Life Cycle Of a Mailing List*


THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS

Every list seems to go through the same cycle:

1.  Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush alot about
    how wonderful it is to find kindred souls).

2.  Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list,
    and brainstorm recruitment strategies).

3.  Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads
    develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up).

4.  Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of
    information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as
    well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease
    each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience;
    everyone -- newbie and expert alike -- feels comfortable asking
    questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions).

5.  Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases
    dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people
    start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens
    to quit if *other* people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet
    topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten
    up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than
    is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed).

6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks
    an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies
    are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor
    issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are
    limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time
    self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic
    threads off the list).
OR

6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants
    stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks;
    many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list
    lives contentedly ever after).


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Where "email_address" is the address you used when you subscribed to lotd.

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with a SUBJECT header of:
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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Thu Apr 04 05:26:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Storm, I need to speak ...
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 17:26:31 GMT

Robert

>  Sunday (yesterday) I learned of the suicide death of a cyberworld
> friend who didn't even know that I existed.

Thanks for bringing that news.  I have not been active
netdynamics, though I have every message from that list on my hd.
I have lurked at times but not enough to be connected with Matt.
I went back and read posts including some about Psybernet --

> ... It's the next day (Tuesday) already. I had a real shitty sleep plagued
> with terrible dreams. Relationships online are real. Soul is evident in our
> words to each other.

Relationships are real.  This is a place of soul.  I have
experienced loss here, in a variety of ways including a death.
Matt's death impacts on me in that I saw the list he originated
as close to the one we have here.  Close yet different.  The fact
that he suicided while on such a list hits home.  He was
dedicated to exploring list dynamics -- and while I do not
understand the dynamics of that list -- something hits me:  list
dynamics -- the soul in cyberspace (I would call it just as
easily) can be connected to the depths in the participants.  It
fills me with a sense of the importance of our work confirmation
almost that we are doing something evolutionary . . .  as one
person said in netdynam . . .  we are moving from the sea and
crawling onto the land . . . not knowing what will happen here.

This is not the time to look at these dynamics in this way
perhaps -- but this is what comes up for me!  I have worked in
face-to-face with many suicidal people -- I worked in a psych
hospital for 6 years -- and I am still working with people where
suicide is an option.  Always I ask:  Who are you close to?  Who
can you talk to?  If there is no-one I ask: Can you talk to me?
If I get the nod -- then I know I have a special responsibility
to ensure that the connection is open -- I mean psychologically
-- not extra sessions or phone calls per se.  If people have
another human they can connect with I believe they are safe from
suicide (there may be exceptions, who knows).  Can a list
relationship be such a connection?  Yes!  But then what happened
with Matt?

It is with these questions in mind I will connect further with
Matt . . . I trust it is OK with him that his story is important
for me or others who look to this form of communication for life
and depth.

> Welcome to the newest members. I'll post again later to speak with
> you about your various concerns and opinions.

I look forward to your contributions -- we have enough to work
with for ever it seems -- I trust we will attend to each other as
whole people while we focus on the work of the list.  Robert, you
do that in your posts.  thanks.  I hope you are grieving this
death just as is right for you, and giving it all the attention
this occasion demands.


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 05 01:17:57 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Reality?
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 07:17:57 -0600

Dear Psyberians,

        A discussion in my staff lounge about internet and relationships
found an echo here and on the list NYTDYNAM. The topic had to do with
_reality_. No one disputes that when we are in a face-to-face (f2f)
environment we are engaged with reality (multiple sensory evidence).
Relationships in the f2f dimension are _real_ relationships. Questions pop
into my mind, "what is real about the relationships? are they based on the
visual sensory data or our thoughts about that data? are they based on the
aural sensory data or our thoughts about that data? are they based on the
auras projected (what defines these auras?) or on cognition? can we define
_relationship_ using finite terms?"

        When one relates, one does so not with a body or a mind, but with
the essence of that person which defies scientific understanding. Does the
essence of a person exist only within the confines of _all_ the senses?
Blind people, deaf people, all those deprived of their _full_ sensory
complement are able to engage in relationship. Is it _touch_ then that is
the critical factor which allows the germ of relationship to flower?

        Obviously (to me anyway), the essence of who we are is not bound
within our bodies; and, in the opinion of many mystics, neither is it bound
within our minds. Our essence exists. _WE_ exist, in f2f environments, in
cyberspace, at the other end of a phone line, on the sending or receiving
end of a letter; we exist wherever and whenever. Realationship exists if all
we share is the exchange of glances over a moment or over years.
Relationship exists between the living and the dead in the stories we pass
on to our children and kin. Relationship exists within the context of
teacher and learner. Relationship exists between blind and seeing. Etc., etc.

        Relationship exists here. This is real. The smiles you bring to my
face or my mind are real. The confusion, the anger, the agreement, the pain
and sorrow are real, the compassion is real.

        We question authenticity and duplicity in this environment.  Do we
not have to question these just as thoroughly in the f2f reality?  Vicki
talks about _posturing_ and _artifice_ online. Do we truly know anyone f2f?
The psychology of a listserv ... relation ... communication ... perception
... negotiation ... validation ... .  It's all here.  This is real.

Robert de Cyberie


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From hoon@APK.NET Fri Apr 05 02:17:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Reality?
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:17:43 -0500

Greetings,

I've just finished reading Ken Wilber's SEX, ECOLOGY, SPIRITUALITY, in
which he points out, as other unfashionable thinkers have before him, that
the conceit
of sensory prehension's paramount status (in Euro-centric metaphysics,) is
the rather convenient justification for the making, of the ego-person, into
the captain of his/her 'ship'.

(So: limitation follows conceit; where conceits have their 'edge', on the
other side, the liminal beckons.)

Meanwhile, as Wilber notes, we extensively interpret our experience be it
f2f or otherwise without any evidence that the medium of mediation makes a
whit of difference in terms of the nature of the experience of our 'unique'
interpretation.

IMO,

So, Robert, I see eye to eye :-)

and perhaps the heart(s) will follow?

Stephen


>Do we truly know anyone f2f?
>The psychology of a listserv ... relation ... communication ... perception
>... negotiation ... validation ... .  It's all here.  This is real.
>
>Robert de Cyberie

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri Apr 05 04:20:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Case studies and supervision [Was:  Another Psyber-newbie]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 16:20:00 GMT

Mila,

> As I told Robert today, on Friday I had some first exp in hearing your e-mail
> voices - not quite whispering, but soothing and lulling me out of argumentation
> composure. It was the first sudden relaxation exp since I underwent Rogers ther-
> apy first. It's a pity you could not see me calm down instantly - that sudden I
> wasn't able to e-mail a short notice of what was happening
> Proposed goal: short codes for body exps.

[Walter: entering the calm as if settling into a comfortable
chair in a cosy room ]

Mila:
> Yet I see a face-to-face group!

Ah!  Just as I was entering into a more secluded space.


> True, group dynamics appears in other vestiges than in F-F-comm.
> Hopefully group members here have their own feet to stand on.
> I could tell you on more or less subtle leadership in other lists.
> (Case stories.)

I am interested  --  how do you (and others) feel about speaking
of -- other -- lists here?  (To some extent I have done that
mentioning netdynam) I find it a tricky area.  One of the reasons
for advocating _experiential_ research, as in this list . . . is
that right now all of us have had the information that we do that
here, that this list is for learning as we go -- we subbed to a
list with that stated aim.  I have respect for the work of J. L.
Moreno who advocated what he called sociometric research --
psychodrama groups are one form of such research -- as if we are
all participant observers, in both those roles at the same time.
He advocated maximum voluntary participation in the research. (I
have references if anyone wants them)

> Maybe we've got different internal models of psyberspace in general.
> Mine is: Whose impact on me I sense, is counted to exist.

Yes , the model may not be _that_  dissimilar -- for some
software reason I (as list owner) literally see on my screen
every sub and unsub to this group.  And that has an impact.
(Perhaps I should send them to the list -- <joke>  anyway they
have calmed down a little)

> Lurkers are not.
> I'm aware of the similarity of this model to academic publication race;
> but -sorry- there's no semantics to silence.

Now there is a topic!  Semantics of Silence.

> I'm after doing some Rogers-type counseling I learned during a
> wild and beautiful therapy. I've had some success in F-F-counseling
> as well as via letters. Online counseling I've yet to explore and to
> train; but if having built a relationship, there are signs it might work,
> too.

Yes.

> Perhaps I might go to the list for supervision?

This is a good example in how I see the list as a jumping off
point for other work.  While a big public list like this is OK
for some level of  supervision,  IMO  a more focussed group or
one to one contract would need to be developed.  Supervision --
for those not familiar with the concept as used in psychotherapy
and social work etc. --  is a relationship with another
professional (or group) to look at the work we do with our
clients.  It is usually seen as primarily for the safety and
interest of the clients.  The development of the supervisee is of
course also on the agenda -- "on the edge of training and
therapy" never venturing too far in either direction.  Of
importance is the parallel process -- where the dynamic of the
case work is repeated in the supervision, and then attended to in
the here and now.  This can be done in lists, I am sure.

So there is the possibility of  a supervision for net counsellors
list, a peer list? -- by invitation?  I see this as something for
the future -- this psyber-l list  has a way to go before I can
tell what I would want to see happen in that area.

> I'll take some leave for Easter, responding last to today's digest.

Have a good Easter!  We, in New Zealand are almost there -- being
where the sun first rises each day.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri Apr 05 04:20:04 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Evolution of discussion lists (forward)
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 16:20:04 GMT

Hi Kathy

> THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS

Welcome & Interesting . . . not only a laugh i'd say -- quite a
helpful and accurate summary in my experience . . . is there
anything that does not fit for others?  I'd remove the cynical
tone.

walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Apr 05 07:32:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: How real is real?
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 14:32:06 EST

Dear Sir Robert de Cyberie and Psyberians,
Let me quote Poul Watzlawick from Foreword to his book "How real is real?":
"This book is about the way in which communication creates what we call reality.
At first glance this may seem a most peculiar statement, for surely reality is,
what is, and communication is merely a way of expressing or explaining it. Not
at all. As the book will show, our everyday, traditional ideas of reality are
delusions which we spend substantial parts of our daily lives shoring up, even
at the considerable risk of trying to force facts to fit our definition of
reality instead of vice versa. And the most dangerous delusion af all is that
there is only one reality. What there are, in fact, are many different versions
of reality, some of which are contradictory, but all of which are the results of
communication and not reflection of eternal, objective truths".
With best regards
Jurek

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Apr 05 07:32:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: From gas cloud to supernova and on Leadership
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 14:32:10 EST

Dear Walter and Psyberians
Thank You for inspiring remarks.
>THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS
Reading description of formation and disappearance of  a LIST  the establish
model of development and decay of planetary system came to my mind. From cloud
of interstellar gas forming the planets and moons toward  explosion of supernova
devouring the planets and annihilating the system (in a more or less  20 000 000
000 years).
 From Psyberspace to Interplanetary Space and back.

>Facilitation, Moderation, Editing, leadership, list-owning . . .
>All the roles associated with running lists one way or another.
>It seems that some form of leadership can t be avoided.  Even in
>the setting up of a list, dozens decisions about how the list
>operates have to be made.  These are not democratically made --
>they are up to the owner!  Even the most lasais fair (sp?) owner
>has an influence on the list -.......
>How is the leadership combined with participation?  Does one
>contaminate the other?  here for example I am both owner, and
>facilitator (which is not the same as moderator in a technical
>sense)  I also am an avid participator -- seems OK to me , but I
>want to discuss this and reflect on it more.

>In another group I am owner -- but not in other leadership roles
>(formally), I have found that more tricky, being perceived as a
>leader when I am not.  (Even by myself I must admit -- the title
>of owner can easily go to ones head! )
>How do others handle these roles?
Owner, leader, manager,  facilitator, consultant, expert, particpant. In my
experience it is possible to hold all those rolles in one person and one
organization as long their are well defined and not performed simultaneously.
The role has to be clearly defined and understod by player and organization and
shift clearly punctuated and actual role declared.
Democratic leader? Hm. Leader in a democratic system, yes. Otherwise we have
dictatorship. But democratic leader seems to me not possible. Democratic manager
- yes, following the decisions of majority (if that is his leaders decision <G>
and owners policy).
By the way, Walter it seems to me that, list ( organization) is working without
confusion-
so where is dilemma?.
Shift of subject.
Walter>
Congress I mentioned in my e-mail is  the 1st Congress of the World Council for
Psychotherapy in Vienna, 30 June - 4July.
Psyberians> Will some of You participate?
All the best

Jurek

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri Apr 05 10:26:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PLG: Waterbird wrap
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 22:26:01 GMT

Stephen, Charles and all,

> I am grateful to Charles for his bringing the game to this space and
> playing with me and his forebearance.

It has been quite a journey.

I think the game was a grand piece in its own right.

Angels and swords, Rilke and Hopkins, and the life of the sixties
will always carry a bit of waterbird with them for me.

What I learnt from it about on line lists is this:

1.  It is possible to complete a cooperative task on a list!  (It
does not often happen!)

2.  Structure and form when tight (yang) -- can assist in
developing the softer and more feminine (yin).

3.  There is a form here that, like lists themselves, is more
suitable to the net than any other medium.  This is has great
potential as a psychological form .


Thanks Charles for the inspiration -- look forward to where this
might lead.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 05 11:56:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Wilbur S.: I'm a lurker, ...
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:56:43 -0600

Psyberians et Wilbur,

        I finally have a few moments with which to reply to Wilbur's
original post and several of those which followed.  I don't know where
this is going, but I'm sure I'll enjoy the journey.

WS>I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology
WS>of Listserv groups..

        Hm-mm-mn, good idea! Which aspects in particular? the psychology
of relationships on a listserv group? the psychology of communication on
a listserve group? the dynamics of community? the nature of CMC?

WS>I haven't seen anything about the psychology of participation in a listserv.

        How do we have a psychology of listserv groups without a
psychology of the participation, the patterns of participation, the
nature of the participation?  Could you help me to understand your
informational needs/goals?  I'm sure that the community of Psyber-l is
open to a development of listserv psychology that you wish to investigate.

WS>On the other hand, I have seen statements that this is to be self-help,
WS>group therapy list, complete with people with a professional background in
WS>Psychology and therapy.  Given that most self-help groups are by nature
WS>anonymous, and this list isn't ...

        I wonder at this Wilbur?! Don't we engage in modifying our sense
of reality and in turn, ourselves when we engage in dialogue? We do help
ourselves by breaking the silence. Any therapy that I'd consider to be
potentially beneficial is dialogue-based. We engage in dialogue here -
we engage in therapeutic dialogue - we engage in self-help ... and while
doing so, we investigate the psychology of a listserv (which is really the
investigation of those who engage in listserv activity).

WS>I have to wonder what sort of flame wars and
WS>personal attacks are going to surface here.

        Hopefully, none. But human nature will provide us with motive and
opportunity. To avoid the potential for flame wars and personal attacks is
to invite censorship and mediation. One can't avoid the perils of being
human when taking on the citizenship of a listserv community.

>I'll hang around a while longer and see if anyone actually starts to discuss
>the psychology of listserv groups, but I'm not about to participate in a
>free for all, non-anonymous, self-help, group therapy session with a mixture
>of professional and amateur therapists and no focused goals.

        I think that all of our posts are goal-driven. We speak to each
other from some need to express an idea, some understanding. As for being
anonymous, I can be anonymous standing next to you for a thousand years. The
face-to-face environment doesn't eliminate anonymity. Too many suicides from
people living in crowds, with families, co-workers, etc.  If one wants to be
anonymous, that goal can easily be achieved. Does it matter if others can
place a name to the anonymous man/woman?

WS>I'm on the
WS>verge of unsubscribing, since I'm not getting what I was looking for..

        I look forward to a continued dialogue, but I'll respect your right
to be silent, your right to leave. I acknowledge that thi post wasn't meant
as a flame, that is was meant to _voice_ a concern.

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 05 11:56:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Storm, I need to speak ...
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:56:58 -0600

Merci, Stephen,

        I appreciate the message so soon after my posting. I found
it fortunate to have both you and Walter here to share the experience.
I'm silent on NETDYNAM due to my need to limit my interactions on
listserv communities. Otherwise, I'd have little time for life on
the dimension on the other side of the screen.

SC>However, with so much intellectually up in the air there and here, the
SC>feeling space and tone that has arisen in the aftermath of the suicide of
SC>*community member* of Net_Dynamics suggests, to me, simply that deep
SC>community is purchased at the sacrifice of the more narrow expectations
SC>about a mailing list working toward definate concrete 'ends'.

        What does this suggest about the psychology of listserv's?
Perhaps the notion of _defining_ and _limiting_ our interactions
works counter to the survival of a listserv as a community. It almost
seems that the end result would be a _bulletin board_ posted with
facts and science ... and devoid of meaning.

RL>>Loss seems to be as
RL>>painful here on the 'net as it does in physical time and space ... maybe
RL>>more so since we often put up fewer walls.
>
SC>Whether or not this is true, we do well to keep in mind as we play on this
SC>stage that human beings made up of flesh and blood are doing the typing at
SC>their end of the network.

        Well spoken! We are not disembodied beings.

SC>And, that the soul we bring to our being here is the stuff of our
SC>incarnation and it's becoming in a particular space and time, no matter how
SC>we may choose to act out alternative persona(s), roles, and, experiment
SC>with identity online.

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 05 11:57:14 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Whispers?
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 17:57:14 -0600

Salut my friends,

        Kathleen comments:

KG>I am most intrigued by the lurkers. Every time I post to a list I cannot help
KG>but read it through their eyes, imagining myself in a movie of sorts, my
KG>letter being read by the crowd, but only being commented on by the
KG>characters...

        Knowing that there are lurkers (check the numbers for the list and
count the numbers of those engaged in dialogue), we speak to each other in
dialogue while speaking in a monologue.  It is a different kind of theatre.
While on a stage, we speak _lines_. Dialogue is reflected to the audience
off the character to whom the words are apparently directed.  Here, there is
real dialogue ... I / Thou ... yet, as you mention, there is also an
audience, characters which may at anytime join the dialogue.

       Interesting opening.  I know that I'll enjoy this dialogue!

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 05 14:20:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: On Buber dialogs
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:20:00 -0600

Mila (and others),

MK>Of course I'd like to turn to you intending to engage in a living mutual re-
MK>lation. But how do I get in mind "you in your *present* and particular being"
MK>given only impressions I've got days before - because of several time
lags in-
MK>herent in geography as well as technicalities of the distribution process?

        Given the absence of the full sensory data that one traditionally
uses to get a sense of presence, one is indeed limited.  However,
limitations aside, this is a real person addressing you.  The words I speak
are reflections of the being that I am ... they can be nothing else.  As
much as I try, my words cannot mask their author

MK>Addressing you I've to rely on what you wrote

        Exactly!  And what I write is an offspring of who I am, a face of me
so to speak.

MK>I'm thrown back to your last words:
RL>>     It's time for me to send this off and prepare for my classes.
MK>indicating - for me at least - you'll undergo some experiences far beyond my
MK>being able to follow.
MK>So you can't be, by whatever means, that Robert again, whom I met on Friday
MK>and whom I have in mind responding.

        I exist in both dimensions, and others as well. One does not negate
the other.  Each plane offers us a moment an opportunity to discover some
portion of our own beings, and allows others to know that aspect of
ourselves.  Perhaps our true identities is a sum of all these aspects (and
more). The _Robert de Cyberie_ you talked with here on PSYBER-L, is waiting
to speak with you once again.  The _Robert Longpre'_ who teaches continues
to develop and dialogue on a separate plane.  The _BOB_ that has kept
_Maureen_ company as mate for 25 years is also real.  The stranger who says
hello and acknowledges the separateness and uniqueness of another being,
another authentic dialogue, is also real.

MK>So my trying to talk/argue to you per se can't meet Buber's criteria of
MK>authenticity.

        Why not?  As long as I don't objectify you (or the others to whom I
respectfully address my words) and you don't objectify me, we can indeed
angage in authentic dialogue.

MK>Let me put it thus:
MK>Buber's criteria are too tight to be applicable for (even e-)letters,

        Doesn't Buber ascribe even the absence of words between beings who
recognize each other's separateness as authentic dialogue (exchange of a
glance while passing)?  Our dialogue here is genuine, authentic in the fact
that I don't see your words as dependent upon me for existence.  They have
you as author, an independent being, independent of my perception of you,
independent of the need for me to say you exist.


        Mila, I hope that after your return from an Easter pause that we may
continue this examination of dialogue, this relationship between "thou" and
"i", the relationship between separate and multiple faces of the beings that
we are, especially as it relates to this environment.

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 05 14:20:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Don't call me a lurker!
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:20:10 -0600

Hello Vicki (and others),

VC>Please don't throw me in a bin with the lurkers!  I've never wanted to be a
VC>member of the chorus:  I always wanted a speaking role, and a big one at
VC>that.

        Heaven forbid!  One never throws a Lady (I hope that this doesn't
sound too chauvinistic - my natural tendency is to think in terms of
chivalry and kindness).  Please speak to me, to us, with you full _voice_.

VC>Unlike many of you, I have no
VC>formal training in psychology/therapy/social work.  My background is in
VC>writing and marketing, with serious interests in poetry, alternative health
VC>and cooking.

        Another poet! Perhaps this will be an opportunity for us to dialogue
about the poetic aspects of internet conversation.  As my signature
proclaims, I too am a poet.

VC>However, since entering the world of the Internet (and what an incredible
VC>world it is!) I have become more and more fascinated with relationships as
VC>they  evolve on-line

        Then, this seems to be exactly where you want to be.  The psychology
of a listserv is about the relationships of those who find themselves part
of a listserv community.

VC>Now I find
VC>myself considering the nature of reality, particularly in relationships.  I
VC>wonder how the greater lack of prejudice on-line (can't see, can't hear,
VC>can't pre-judge) influences relationships, both initially and long-term.
VC>And how are we to discern between appropriate posturing on-line and
VC>downright artifice?

        I hope that you have read some of my conversations (and those of
several others) concerning these very questions, these past few days.  We do
not know, nor can we create, that which is not part of us.  Perhaps the
posing, posturing and artifice are not so far from the beings that we really
are?

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 05 14:20:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: a triple knot...
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:20:20 -0600

Charles,

    I, for one, am looking forward to the promise of dream play.

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 05 14:20:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Storm, I need to speak ...
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:20:33 -0600

Walter,

        Thanks for your reply. You have affirmed much of what I have been
feeling regarding this medium of communication.

WL>Relationships are real.  This is a place of soul.

        As a place of soul, it is the being behind the voice that is heard
more than the words themselves.  Can we not somehow sense the pulse of the
speaker, the essence of the speaker? Or, are we captive of the words
appearing on our screens, limited to them, by them?

WL> -- and while I do not
WL>understand the dynamics of that list -- something hits me:  list
WL>dynamics -- the soul in cyberspace (I would call it just as
WL>easily) can be connected to the depths in the participants.

        I agree, we are connected at a depth that goes beyond the mere
words, a depth perceived only as we plum those depths ourselves.  Otherwise,
there exists only the words ... potentially noise.

        Again, Walter, thanks for your concern and care.

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 05 14:20:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe..
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 20:20:46 -0600

Bonjour Kathy,

KG>As a *very* new list member (I found the list over the weekend), I wanted
KG>to say that I had some of the same pre-conceptions about this list as
KG>Wilbur ... that is, that the discussions would center around "the
KG>psychology of the list."

        The psychology of a list (the psychology of those on the list) - it
appears we may be headed in just that direction.

KG>=>I did not expect games ;-)

        Dialogue, negotiation, re-statements: opening moves to a game of
some kind I'm sure.  As we investigate various themes using this medium, we
are in effect investigating this medium.  How does the medium enhance or
detract from the dialogue of negotiation, of relation? What's the
psychological implications of CMC?

KG>I am interested in this subject because I believe this medium has such
KG>great potential to serve as a democratizing agent. On the other hand, if
KG>lists become cliques of people who think in lock-step, then that potential
KG>may vanish ... and its passing mean more division, less acceptance of
KG>differences.

        Voila!  You have expressed well the need to keep the borders of a
list open and unfettered.  Moderating, censoring a list so that only
prescribed topics and opinions are to be presented is to kill the dialogue
before it has even begun.

KG>I know from personal experience that I *feel* as tho I know a few
KG>individuals well .... even tho I have only written back-and-forth with them
KG>over a period of time (days, weeks, months). A feeling of intimacy seems to
KG>escalate --- but is it real or smoke?

        It is _real_ for you if you accept it as such.  That does not
necessarily mean it is real for the _other_.  The same is to be said for
relationships in a f2f environment.  One's perception of intimacy is always
different from those with whom one is intimate.

KG>I believe it is true that if we participate  long enough, the "real" us
KG>will come out thru our words and deeds! But what about all those folks who
KG>lurk -- are they voyeurs ... what needs are they fulfilling by
KG>*watching*?

        Perhaps it's not a matter of _time_.  Perhaps, as Walter has
mentionned, it is a matter of depth.  As for the lurkers, they are part of
every environment, every plane upon which we meet.

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From hoon@APK.NET Fri Apr 05 16:29:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe..
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 23:29:55 -0500

voyeurs
lurkers
watchers

?

I like to think of the silent "them" as the...


chorus.

Stephen



                                     \\\|///
                                   \\  ~ ~  //
                                    (  @ @  )
                    --------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
                   |                                          |
                   |            Stephen Calhoun               |
                   |              hoon@apk.net                |
                   |       http://junior.apk.net/~hoon        |
                   |                                          |
                    ----------------------Oooo.---------------
                                .oooO     (   )
                                (   )      ) /
                                 \ (      (_/
                                  \_)

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From hoon@APK.NET Fri Apr 05 16:30:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tama !  and what we are up to here . . .
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 23:30:16 -0500

Parsing...re: "group therapy"



Good
wish
revelations
connecting
heart
may
hope
is
explorations
hopefully
hold
also
emerges
simply
practical
sense
process
do
forms
saying
learning
trip?


And, as for group therapy, I'm a student of the school which suggests every
breath has the potential to be therapeutic, the gaps between the breaths
more so, and as for ideas, and thoughts, and artistic expressions of the
natural soul...all...

therapeutic too.

ime

Stephen

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Apr 05 23:40:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: list as structure within organization
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 06:40:21 EST

Jurek:
>> By the way, Walter it seems to me that, list ( organization) is working
without
>> confusion-
> >so where is dilemma?.
Walter:
>You mean the technical computer side of it?   Or the more
>personal and interactive dynamics of it?  Of this list or
>generally?

Technical computer side can be considered as part of structure - one of elements
which is creating platform here on witch we are meetting together.
For me LIST, participanst - Psyberians, You Walter, the owner and facilitator,
ideas,  definitions, conversations are the structural  parts of ORGANIZATION.
Organization is how those bits, elements are put  together -are relating and
working.
Personal and interactive dynamics is how this, ours organization - PsyberLIST is
behaving.
List is a part of structure and organization in the same time but in different
perspective.

All the best
Jurek

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Apr 05 23:40:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: punctuation
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 06:40:23 EST

Dear Walter and Psyberians.
I would like to clarify important distinction.

Jurek:
>> The role has to be clearly defined and understood by player and organization
and
>> shift clearly punctuated and actual role declared.
Walter:
>I recall seeing forum leaders (is that the term?) on Compuserv
>literally using punctuation to denote their status:

>:: thus.
Walter, my punctation in this sentence is on SHIFT  from one role to another.

Are You refering to SYSOP'S (forum leaders)? One could ask: what is a function
of denoting status for an particular  leader. AND his organization?

Thank You for connecting so quickly
Jurek

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri Apr 05 23:55:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: From gas cloud to supernova and on Leadership
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:55:34 GMT

Jurek,

> >THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS
> Reading description of formation and disappearance of  a LIST  the establish
> model of development and decay of planetary system came to my mind.

Ah!  I like how you took that further -- the original humorous
Cycle described something stereotypical -- your image takes it to
the higher realms . . . as if there are laws here that we do not
have much say over, ie there is a _natural_ tendency in lists.
The image certainly puts any inflated notions of leadership at
bey!

>  From Psyberspace to Interplanetary Space and back.

Walter :
> >How is the leadership combined with participation?  Does one
> >contaminate the other?  here for example I am both owner, and
> >facilitator (which is not the same as moderator in a technical
> >sense)  I also am an avid participator -- seems OK to me , but I
> >want to discuss this and reflect on it more.


Jurek:
> Owner, leader, manager,  facilitator, consultant, expert, participant. In my
> experience it is possible to hold all those roles in one person and one
> organization as long their are well defined and not performed simultaneously.
> The role has to be clearly defined and understood by player and organization and
> shift clearly punctuated and actual role declared.

I recall seeing forum leaders (is that the term?) on Compuserv
literally using punctuation to denote their status:

:: thus.

> By the way, Walter it seems to me that, list ( organization) is working without
> confusion-
> so where is dilemma?.

You mean the technical computer side of it?   Or the more
personal and interactive dynamics of it?  Of this list or
generally?

I have no dilemma, however I think there is a fuzzy line between
my (and probably all) participation and facilitation.  It is
clearer than on a lot of lists where it is not declared that the
owner is also in a facilitating role (that can be fine).  I have
not come across the term on lists.  It happened here in the
setting up  in 93, in a collaborative process with Reg Smith a
then active participant on the (now closed) Psybernet BBS.  We
did not like the term moderator, in New Zealand English it
connotes a dampening down of everything -- the word is not used
here at all to mean "Chairperson" (as in North America?).  Nor
did we envisage the sort of work a moderator does as right for
this list.  We decided to use the term facilitation.

Of course many here have been doing that . . . welcoming, and
attending to process, summarising, questioning.  In so far as I
am a participator I welcome the facilitation of others --
sometimes I might just want to go a bit crazy.  Over the summer
in New Zealand I was simply away for a long time.  All the
questions of authority, familiar to face-to-face groups can come
up -- dependency -- counter-dependency . . .

> Shift of subject.
> Congress I mentioned in my e-mail is  the 1st Congress of the World Council for
> Psychotherapy in Vienna, 30 June - 4July.
> Psyberians> Will some of You participate?

Unfortunately I'll be here -- am toying with the idea of going to
Italy for the Bion conference in 97, partly  because I'd like to
go to the alps to do some rock climbing, and see my son in
London.

Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 06 00:07:54 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: How real is real?
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 12:07:54 GMT

>  What there are, in fact, are many different versions
> of reality, some of which are contradictory, but all of which are the results of
> communication and not reflection of eternal, objective truths".

It just sruck me how perception is utterly different . . . Mila
mentioned  lurkers (no disparagement intended -- I am a proud
list lurker at times)  do not impact her at all.  Quoting Robert
who quotes

  Kathleen comments:

KG>I am most intrigued by the lurkers. Every time I post to a
list I cannot help
KG>but read it through their eyes,

It is a wonder we can communicate at all!  And that the consensus
reality seems as solid as it does.

walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Apr 06 02:46:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: participation and facilitation
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 09:46:58 EST

Walter,

>II think there is a fuzzy line between
>my (and probably all) participation and facilitation.

I feel that it is trivia but my inner bookshelve tells me, that  when You
facilitate You participate, but when You participate You are not necessary
facilitating.

You participate when your presence is reconized (by server or others). You
facilitate when You simplify and make thing easy FOR others. Perhaps difference
between moving forward and moving toward.

>Moderator
moderator, moderatly =within bounds, within limits, within reason (MS Bookshelf
94).

Yours Jurek

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 06 03:12:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe..
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:12:51 GMT

Bonjour Robert et Kathy,

(Just trying out a bit of French, can one use it like that with
two people? -- _Sir_ Robert someone said Ha!  --  What is the
French Canadian equivalent of a Knight? )

> KG> -- are they voyeurs ... what needs are they fulfilling by
> KG>*watching*?

Robert:
>          As for the lurkers, they are part of
> every environment, every plane upon which we meet.

Yes -- and watchers are different from voyeurs -- and different
again from those who are listening and thinking before they speak
-- which I think we have been doing quite well eh!  Others might
like to do more of . . .

Again who knows!  I know of several on the list who are really
*here* but who don't quite join in -- I am  like that in netdynam
( of late ).

I was thinking of groups I have been in face-to-face -- often
there is a lot happening, and then there may be some issue or
conflict -- then quietly someone who has been watching and
listening offers the "resolution" -- they were not caught in the
dynamics in the same way . . . familiar?

The word lurker is just so disrespectful for such a person . . .
it sounds it to my ears at least.

In the nettiquete files there is even the suggestion that one
does this . . . read the posts and tune into the list -- I am
glad we don't all do that -- but it fits with joining a new place
-- and I am heartened as an oldie here that there has been and is
respect for what is happening here . . .

Some of it personal -- and that is fitting for this venture.

Thanks


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 06 03:58:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Tama !  and what we are up to here . . .
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:58:52 GMT

Tama and all in psyber-l,

Tama, you wrote some posts to the list which I got forwarded from
the old, now defunct address.  Good to hear from you and on the
phone as well!  You may wish to repost -- as I explained.

With the new discussions it is as if those more personal
revelations we have shared here seem a long way and time ago --
somehow I do not want to loose that thread connecting to your
open heart.  I think it belongs here in this list.

I have a fear that your openness (and mine?) -- may be seen as
"off topic" or as too much "group therapy".  I hope you hang in
there with your style, I have no doubt you will!

Obviously this is not a group therapy list, that is what it is
about -- they are quite different in almost every way.  Yet our
explorations of the psyche in this medium -- which is more the
our focus --  will include our wholeness and our multiplicity as
people.  Any list can be therapeutic, hopefully this is.  To
build the container, to ensure it can hold all of our
explorations I suggest we do not restrain our writing -- but also
consider how what emerges relates to the "prime directive" of the
list.  Some may simply want to question how it does -- challenge
us see the practical learning.  Some can make sense of our
process while others simply 'do it".

Supervision, therapy, collaborative writing, dream games and
perhaps dozens of other things can be born from our connections
here and move into private mail and other forms, even as we
report on them here and learn from them.

Any way Tama, I am hoping what I am saying will enrich our
experience and our learning here.


Walter

PS Tama -- by the time you read this the holidays will be over .
. . how was the bike trip?

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sat Apr 06 05:36:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls.
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 18:36:01 +0100

>
>        Thanks for your reply. You have affirmed much of what I have been
>feeling regarding this medium of communication.
>
>WL>Relationships are real.  This is a place of soul.

This is also the place of the pseudo-soul. Its the place of the *player*
It's the place to show off a thinly-veiled ego. Relationships are also
imagined fantasies. You see what you want to see, you can chuck your angst
in the midst of a dozen or so other angsts and contemplate life the
universe, poetry and suffer together. Empathising with each other's
feelings, or minutely examining the depths of each other's navels. There's
no greater feeling than thinking that at last you're truly understood. And
of course it's so enjoyable to parade one's ego under the guise of humility
or the Herculean tasks ahead. While at the same time of couse its also
especially nice to have everyone agreeing with you... at least most of the
time, hanging on your every word. A hell of an Ego trip. A sort of cyber
version of Warholes famous for 15 mins..or was it 10?


        As a place of soul, it is the being behind the voice that is heard
>more than the words themselves.  Can we not somehow sense the pulse of the
>speaker, the essence of the speaker? Or, are we captive of the words
>appearing on our screens, limited to them, by them?

Wake up and smell the coffee. What you think you see is almost never what
you get. Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list. Nobody
would ever be understood, and nobody would ever be bothered to listen. Do
you speak like this in reality? I hope not. What's wrong with plain English?
Is there some sense of insecurity that makes you want to parade your
"intelligence" in a whole load of frilly terms - God spare us all from
self-styled net poets. It takes 15 sentences to vomit out a sentence that
only merits 3. Thats the problem with lists, you make them elitist and in
the end only the elite remain. No growth just stagnant discussion and re
discussion.

Cut the bullshit in other words. Be what are, not you would like to be seen
to be.
Not what you think you are.. but what you are truly. Thats what makes a list
alive, each mailing a piece of you. One you dont mind others seeing.

>WL> -- and while I do not
>WL>understand the dynamics of that list -- something hits me:  list
>WL>dynamics -- the soul in cyberspace (I would call it just as
>WL>easily) can be connected to the depths in the participants.

        I agree, we are connected at a depth that goes beyond the mere
>words, a depth perceived only as we plum those depths ourselves.  Otherwise,
>there exists only the words ... potentially noise.

Noise might clear some of the cobwebs. I am making some. Will probably get
me kicked off the list but what the hell.  Get important topics discussed
here.. why do people form relationships here?  Why is netsex such a
motivating force? How voluntary is the suspension of disbelief? What does
your email signature say about you and the way you want to be perceived? Is
irc of benefit to self-therapy, and why? Why is it radical in its effects on
personal self -discovery?. Is a close irc relationship an adultery of the
mind? Whats the process, the steps leading to a cyber-relationship?

Thats the way to learn about the psychology of the list..and the psychology
of its contributers.

Laurel

a.k.a Dolores but then I can be who I want and what I want here. I choose to
be myself.

Flame bait... I can handle it. Nothing much else to do over Easter except
scoff a few eggs and mourn the absence of the one I love for two days.

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Sat Apr 06 07:24:03 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Varieties of CyberPsych
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 11:24:03 -0800

Lurkers and posters, flamers and extinguishers:

The topic of the psychology of mailing lists is a fascinating one.  As the
joint-owner of a small list myself, I find myself very grateful to the
handful of regular contributors who keep things going, a little scared that
my own posts may overwhelm the list when the regulars are in a hiatus and I
try to jump-start threads, and yet anxious to start things up again --
anything familiar here, Walter? -- despite my belief that a lull on the
list may be as natural as a pause in conversation between old friends...

It would seem that lists tend to have more lurkers than posters right
across the board -- whether the list topic is ecclesiastical history or
forensics -- and this raises such questions as:  What makes a lurker
unsubscribe?  What triggers a lurker into becoming a poster?  What makes a
poster turn into a lurker?  Do posters unsubscribe, and if so why?   Why do
I as a list owner hope lurkers will become posters, and not unsub
themselves?

These questions may have non-psychological answers in some cases (a poster
may unsubscribe because s/he is going on vacation, etc), but the
psychological possibilities are worth discussing, either on the basis of
personal introspection, or from a more theoretical standpoint.

Laurel raises some more intriguing questions:

> why do people form relationships here?  Why is netsex such a
> motivating force? How voluntary is the suspension of disbelief?
> What does your email signature say about you and the way you
> want to be perceived? Is irc of benefit to self-therapy, and why?
> Why is it radical in its effects on personal self -discovery?. Is a
> close irc relationship an adultery of the mind? Whats the process,
> the steps leading to a cyber-relationship?

I have to admit that these are not -- with the exception of "How voluntary
is the suspension of disbelief?" -- questions that I personally have much
interest in, but I'm a list member, not some high panjandrum, and I can see
that others might find them riveting: I hope those others *will* discuss
them here, and I shall as usual try to attend as many threads as possible,
and respond to those which most deeply concern me.

Please note that I expect the same kind of consideration from others: you
and you or you may not personally have much interest in much of what I
write -- in the Games, for instance -- but you are list members, not high
panjandra -- with the possible exception of Walter <grin> -- and you should
be able to see that others may find my topics of interest worthwhile...

*

All of which brings me to the sense that there are two *main* concerns
abroad on this list.  One of them is represented by Walter's phrases in a
recent list intro:

> Topics include:

> The art of leadership in communication networks.
> Creating communication environments.

It seems to me that this tendency on the list inquires into the "psychology
of mailing lists" in a quite pragmatic manner -- as a psychologist might be
involved in "test marketing" a product -- but that Walter has also and very
specifically referred to "depth psychological work", which I take to mean
the kinds of approach to psychology taken by Freud and Norman O Brown, Jung
and Hillman...

Walter signals what some of the topic here might be:

> Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal
> identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  Special focus on
> how these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace.

These topics too are specifically invited by our gracious moderator.

And if there is a *third* main concern here, it would be the wish for the
list to offer an *entry way* into smaller groups, in which actual on-line
therapy would be explored...

*

If I'm even roughly right in divining the presence of these three
tendencies on list, it would again follow that those whose circumstances or
tastes are more with one of these concerns than with the others should
exhibit tolerance of those threads which concern them less.

And isn't that also a part of the "psychology of mailing lists"?

Lists are arenas in which a diversity of topics are discussed, and that
simple fact can, from time to time, frustrate or infuriate us?

Cordially,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Apr 06 08:46:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: How real is real
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 15:46:00 EST

Dear Walter and Psyberians,

>It is a wonder we can communicate at all!  And that the consensus
>reality seems as solid as it does.

The human brain can not stop thinking. The humans can not not communicate.
I just found following footnote remark in Ranulph Glanville article " A
(Cybernetic) Musing:
Communication 1".
"Introduction: Considering Communication (1).
(1) I would rather be able to assert, and have accepted, that meaning requires
us to construct it, each of us individually, and meaning cannot, therefore, be
communicated by transmission, nor can be encoded, for it seems so obvious. And
that sharing of meaning is the central concern of communication. But I am afraid
I cannot, for it is not all obvious to everyone."

The map(our understanding of external world) is not a terrain (reality out there
or "reality in parenthesis" as Maturana calls it). We can construct different
maps in our minds and then we share them by interaction in language. That as far
we can approach common reality in my view.
Agreement that one map is the best one even if it helps us to reach a goal every
time does not made it terrain.

We can agree for shure that we are born and living in the same era and that we
are humans with similar biological brain structure - the rest has to be
negotiated.

Best wishes
Jurek

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sat Apr 06 11:18:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls.
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 17:18:37 -0600

Laurel,

        I am pleased that you sought fit to enter into dialogue:

>This is also the place of the pseudo-soul. Its the place of the *player*
>It's the place to show off a thinly-veiled ego.

        Why must one use veils? As you so rightly put it, this dimension is
what we make of it (but then isn't all of reality the same?).

>Relationships are also
>imagined fantasies.

        Again, agreement. Perhaps this is why there are so many
relationships in the f2f environment that fail to pass the test of prolonged
f2f contact.

>of course it's so enjoyable to parade one's ego under the guise of humility
>or the Herculean tasks ahead. While at the same time of couse its also
>especially nice to have everyone agreeing with you... at least most of the
>time, hanging on your every word. A hell of an Ego trip.

        Do we not see our loved ones as heros? Do they not make us feel
special? As for parading one's ego - mascara and lipstick are the first tools.

>A sort of cyber
>version of Warholes famous for 15 mins..or was it 10?

        Sorry, I'm not familiar with the allusion/reference.

>Wake up and smell the coffee. What you think you see is almost never what
>you get. Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list. Nobody
>would ever be understood, and nobody would ever be bothered to listen. Do
>you speak like this in reality? I hope not. What's wrong with plain English?

        Perhaps my misuse of your lovely language hurts your ears, but I do
try to choose the words with care so as to evoke the right images. As for
_plain English_, why should one be perpetualy reduced to speaking in _black
and white_ when _colour_ could be used.

>Is there some sense of insecurity that makes you want to parade your
>"intelligence" in a whole load of frilly terms - God spare us all from
>self-styled net poets.

        Perhaps, perhaps not. As for my intelligence, since I'm not a PhD
(nor a candidate for such), since I pass my working life teaching verb
conjugations to adolescents who would rather have conjugal relations, I
welcome the opportunity to stretch a bit. Perhaps my poetry has offended
(would you prefer to read my work <<dans la belle langue de mes ancetres>>?
If my words give offense, please feel free to use the delete key. As a
newbie to this list, I don't set the tone or the tenor of this list. If
Walter feels that my posts are out of place, he has the right to remove me
from the list.

>Cut the bullshit in other words. Be what are, not you would like to be
>seen to be.
>Not what you think you are.. but what you are truly.

        Interesting. Since my adolescent years I have been trying to be me,
to discover who that _me_ is. You have managed to discover that these words
I use do not truly reflect aspects of me. I guess I must start the search over.

>Noise might clear some of the cobwebs. I am making some. Will probably get
>me kicked off the list but what the hell.

        I doubt that. Walter has been quite tolerant of my postings. I'm
sure that your words from the heart will not cause such an eventuality.

>Get important topics discussed
>here.. why do people form relationships here?

        The same reason we search for relation in any other medium of
contact ... to feel less alone, to feel that one's words are heard and
perhaps even understood.

>Why is netsex such a
>motivating force?

        New one for me? As a person who is described as a _huggy/feely_ kind
of guy, I need something more tangible than a phlourescent glow from a screen.

>How voluntary is the suspension of disbelief?

        The art of meditation teaches about just a suspension.

>Flame bait... I can handle it. Nothing much else to do over Easter except
>scoff a few eggs and mourn the absence of the one I love for two days.

        I must admit that you have indeed caused a significant level of
heat. The wax which holds my feathers onto my wings is melting and I begin
to tumble to earth, a mortal once again.

Robert de Cyberie

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 06 11:28:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: How real is real
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 18:28:24 -0500

At 03:46 PM 4/5/96 EST, you wrote:
>Dear Walter and Psyberians,
>
>>It is a wonder we can communicate at all!  And that the consensus
>>reality seems as solid as it does.
>
>The human brain can not stop thinking.

Nonsense!  Ever hear of Zen?

>The humans can not not communicate.

Once again, nonsense!

<snip>

>We can agree for shure that we are born and living in the same era and that we
>are humans with similar biological brain structure - the rest has to be
>negotiated.
>

I don't agree!

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sat Apr 06 12:37:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Varieties of CyberPsych
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 18:37:41 -0600

Charles,

        You are a list owner? What is your list about?

>Please note that I expect the same kind of consideration from others: you
>and you or you may not personally have much interest in much of what I
>write -- in the Games, for instance -- but you are list members, not high
>panjandra --

        I think Laurel was speaking in terms of my _bullshit_. However,
perhaps she/he (can one ever know on internet other than through the words
of the speaker?) was spreading the flame around.

>Walter signals what some of the topic here might be:
>
>> Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal
>> identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  Special focus on
>> how these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace.
>
>These topics too are specifically invited by our gracious moderator.

        And topics which appeal to me (which me?). I hope that we do
continue to address some of these. Although, I am willing to discuss other
topics about CMC dynamics on listserv's.

>If I'm even roughly right in divining the presence of these three
>tendencies on list, it would again follow that those whose circumstances or
>tastes are more with one of these concerns than with the others should
>exhibit tolerance of those threads which concern them less.

        Yet, can we be tolerant of those who are not so tolerant so that we
may be able to understand better the need to flame, the need to use straight
jackets to circumscribe conversations to fit _agendas_?

>And isn't that also a part of the "psychology of mailing lists"?
>
>Lists are arenas in which a diversity of topics are discussed, and that
>simple fact can, from time to time, frustrate or infuriate us?

        Regardless of our reaction, it is important to note the presence of
reaction, the presence of another being. With this interaction we are
face-to-face with the psychology of a listserv.

Robert de Cyberie

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sat Apr 06 12:40:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls.
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 01:40:00 +0100

At 17:18 05/04/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Laurel,
>
 I am pleased that you sought fit to enter into dialogue:

Robert this was not a personal attack on you. Please do not think it was.
The use of the word *your* was generic throughout. My apologies if you
thought this was aimed at you specifically.

>>This is also the place of the pseudo-soul. Its the place of the *player*
>>It's the place to show off a thinly-veiled ego.
>
>        Why must one use veils? As you so rightly put it, this dimension is
>what we make of it (but then isn't all of reality the same?).

We all too often make it more than we should and less than we ought to. You
have to see the reality while accepting the fantasy.

>>Relationships are also imagined fantasies.
>
>        Again, agreement. Perhaps this is why there are so many
>relationships in the f2f environment that fail to pass the test of prolonged
>f2f contact.
>

>>of course it's so enjoyable to parade one's ego under the guise of humility
>>or the Herculean tasks ahead. While at the same time of couse its also
>>especially nice to have everyone agreeing with you... at least most of the
>>time, hanging on your every word. A hell of an Ego trip.
>
>        Do we not see our loved ones as heros? Do they not make us feel
>special? As for parading one's ego - mascara and lipstick are the first tools.

My heros have clay feet. And yes they make us feel special - because we want
to feel special. Thats a basic human trait. That and the need to feel
understood.

I think codpieces came before mascara and lipstick.
Is it any surprise that in fact its normally the male of many a species that
is more
conspicuous by its plumage?

>>A sort of cyber
>>version of Warholes famous for 15 mins..or was it 10?
>
>        Sorry, I'm not familiar with the allusion/reference.

Andy Warhol (I managed to spell it right this time) said that eventually
everybody would be famous for 10 or 15 mins. He was I believe refering to
television. He wasnt alive when the internet took off or he would probably
have applied it here. Anyway I just like his soup cans.  My point was that
here everybody has a voice. Those who dare not speak in real life find their
*moment of fame, of glory and attention. That is why mailing lists are so
successful and so addictive.


>>Wake up and smell the coffee. What you think you see is almost never what
>>you get. Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list. Nobody
>>would ever be understood, and nobody would ever be bothered to listen. Do
>>you speak like this in reality? I hope not. What's wrong with plain English?
>
>        Perhaps my misuse of your lovely language hurts your ears, but I do
>try to choose the words with care so as to evoke the right images. As for
>_plain English_, why should one be perpetualy reduced to speaking in _black
>and white_ when _colour_ could be used.

Again not a personal attack on you Robert. I adore language, I adore the
metre, the rhyme, the way I can butcher it with my spelling. My gripe is
with the over intellectualising and psycho-babble. I am not a psychiatrist,
psychologist, psychotherapist, or any other form of counsellor, so your
language is easier to understand with than most. Again it wasnt directed at
you.


>>Is there some sense of insecurity that makes you want to parade your
>>"intelligence" in a whole load of frilly terms - God spare us all from
>>self-styled net poets.
>
>        Perhaps, perhaps not. As for my intelligence, since I'm not a PhD
>(nor a candidate for such), since I pass my working life teaching verb
>conjugations to adolescents who would rather have conjugal relations, I
>welcome the opportunity to stretch a bit. Perhaps my poetry has offended
>(would you prefer to read my work <<dans la belle langue de mes ancetres>>?
>If my words give offense, please feel free to use the delete key. As a
>newbie to this list, I don't set the tone or the tenor of this list. If
>Walter feels that my posts are out of place, he has the right to remove me
>from the list.

I dont think your posts are out of place - I wasnt suggesting that at all.
For a start its not my place to.

Robert,  a mon avis, le Francais est la plus belle langue de la monde. C'est
la langue de romance, de l'histoire, de l'art et de la culture.  Et si tu
veux m'envoyer aucune de tes poemes, j'aimerais les lire. (amazing what you
can do with a dictionary)


There is no such thing as good or bad poetry when it is written for the
self. Poetry should always be written from the self, to oneself. That is
when it has meaning, when it comes from the soul. Course you could argue
that Baudelaire wrote poetry of immense beauty just for its own sake - but
it didnt have the ring of sincerity.


>>Cut the bullshit in other words. Be what are, not you would like to be
>>seen to be.
>>Not what you think you are.. but what you are truly.
>
>        Interesting. Since my adolescent years I have been trying to be me,
>to discover who that _me_ is. You have managed to discover that these words
>I use do not truly reflect aspects of me. I guess I must start the search over.

Not aimed at you again Robert.  I dont think anybody ever really finds out
the truth of who they are. We change constantly. I am not what I was at 17 -
Thank god. However it is something that made me what I am.

>>Get important topics discussed
>>here.. why do people form relationships here?
>
>        The same reason we search for relation in any other medium of
>contact ... to feel less alone, to feel that one's words are heard and
>perhaps even understood.

The danger is the fantasy element. And nobody will deny that cyberspace
hurts. It hurts like hell. It hurts because its a betrayal of who we really
are when we learn to trust and find out that the placement of that trust was
all an illusion.

>>Why is netsex such a
>>motivating force?
>
>        New one for me? As a person who is described as a _huggy/feely_ kind
>of guy, I need something more tangible than a phlourescent glow from a screen.

There are more aspects to netsex than meet the eye. This is where the media
have netsexing wrong, when they focus on criticicising the horny net geeks.
That is all they see. netsex is more than just a self perpetuating
masturbatory fantasy. I think it can be the biggest form of self-therapy
available in cyberspace - one area thats totaly neglected. That will
probably bring the wrath of a dozen psych types down on my head.

>>How voluntary is the suspension of disbelief?
>
>        The art of meditation teaches about just a suspension.

Hmm that word *meditation*  seems to be cropping up alot in my life at the
moment. Maybe I should find out more about it.

I must admit that you have indeed caused a significant level of
>heat. The wax which holds my feathers onto my wings is melting and I begin
>to tumble to earth, a mortal once again.

Robert, you dont need wax to support your wings.

Dolores
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>
>

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Sat Apr 06 14:39:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: on lurkers and unlurking
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 20:39:29 -0600

Dear all--after some time simply "listening" to the conversation, I wanted to
chime in.

1--On the Nature of Lurkers. It strikes me that while we've been discussing the
core of relationships as grounded in authenticity and someone (sorry I don't
recall who) suggested that it was especially important not to objectify others,
that that is exactly what is being done re "lurkers." All of us folk sitting
back listening have been tossed into the same kettle and talked about as
objects out there rather than people in here. Isn't it legitimate to quietly
participate in a conversation by listening (yes, really listening!)? Active
listening is a true gift of authentication--and many "lurkers" might more
rightly be called listeners. True, some may be voyeurs (although there doesn't
seem to me to be anything racy enough here to warrant prurient (sp?)
interests); some may be watchers (observers at more of a distance, sitting back
more cooly); some may be chorus (although this strikes me as dangerous to
assume given that it is all to easy to assume we chorus broader "reality" when
we really reflect just our own little corner). Any broad categorization is
objectification and assumes some more preferred status for posters. Reasons for
listening versus posting may be quite varied--for myself, I've been listening
intently, drawn by the conversation, fascinated by some threads, bored by some
others (just like in FTF conversations), and delighting in the music of the
symbols dancing across my screen. Up until Laurel's posting, I had felt warmly
connected to the "list," even as a newbie--indeed had I not already sketched
out notes on the nature of lurkers, I would likely not have posted. I see no
reason for frontal attacks and see calling others people's contributions or
their writing style "bullshit" as over the line. Civility and politeness seem
to me to go much further in making a point and in building community than
rudeness.

2--On the Nature of Poetry. What joy in the use of words to paint picture, to
sketch images from one mind to another (or from one keyboard to other
screens)!One thing that I've discovered is that, yes, some people do talk like
our compatriates Robert, Mila, Walter, Stephen, etc. -- and what playful
conversations can emerge! Some people do it to impress and these tend to come
across as artificial and pompous. For others, it is the revelation of a soul
with depth and poetry -- the exercise of a vocabulary of the well-read and
well-thinking person. No, no, no! Please lets not boil down to essences--in the
process, I fear, the essence will be lost. In fact, I think that this medium of
the keyboard allows more of the essence to be found because we can form
thoughts and find their links with other thought--and say more fully what we
are trying to say because the conversation is asynchronous. Let's celebrate the
clear and succinct for those who like to write that way--and the complexly
beautiful for those who prefer another path, and take joy in the insight that
each can bring to heart and soul and mind.

                        Susan

By way of brief introduction, I am Susan Swan, an assistant professor of
Rhetoric and Communication at the University of South Dakota. My burning
interests are with processes of transformation--individually, relationally, and
socially. Lots of Jungian psychology gets intermingled in with my teaching and
writing in conjunction with Zen Buddhist approaches and 2500 years of thought
about rhetoric in the West. Life is by nature eclectic--so I follow suit.

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Sat Apr 06 18:08:57 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The Black Sheep of Cyber Souls
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 01:08:57 -0500

Laurel,

The title fascinates me.  It sounds almost like a chapter in a new book.  If
it was my book I'd change it to:  The Black Sheep of Cyber Shoals.  Yet,
despite the feeling expression in the body of the message, your title speaks
something else.  It leaves me with a different impression.

Black sheep.  I understand that, but why does the title evoke images of lost
souls for me?  The word itself, Cyber, seems to conjure an image of a
desolate space like a place of snowy exile in northern Siberia.

Brrr . . . it's cold in here.


Then too, I see the advertisement for the movie, Alien:  "In space no one can
hear you scream."  I suppose the title of a message or a single line from the
body speaks as loudly as the entire message does.  Only we don't really hear
the message.

Now, that specific Waterbird game that Charles and Stephen introduced and
created, it was an attempt to involve more than one sense or more than one
way of utilizing a sense.  I enjoyed seeing it transpire.

Visions of the future.  You mentioned Andy Warhol.  I don't know much about
contemporary or near-contemporary trends but wasn't Warhol part of what is
termed the post-modern culture?  My vision of the post-modern scene includes
popular movies like Blade Runner, The Road Warrior, Until the End of the
World, Brazil; Japanese animation such as Akira, and books such as William
Gibson's Neuromancer.  I see visions of the explosive technological growth
following the white blast of Hiroshima.  A vision of the marriage of cerebral
matter with cyberspace.  A vision of simultaneous degeneration and
transformation leading to the beyond, a simultaneous falling into base matter
and a transcendence.  Connectivity arising out of warfare.

Even with the growth of cold, unfeeling technology there is the underlying
visceral need for passion, some that can only be expressed as ultraviolence.
 Feelings of anarchy evoked as a response to a real or perceived threat of
tightened control.

My associations to your title would have to be expressive of my own being but
is there any leakage from a collective unconscious?

>A sort of cyber version of Warholes famous for 15 mins..

Nice!  I would like to add to that something William Blake wrote long ago and
bring something of the past into the contemporary.  "He whose face gives no
light, shall never become a star."  The recipe for fame includes a glint or
shimmer of that vision thing.  Add a small dash of madness or inspiration,
perhaps?

Baaaaa . . .
It's hard to spot a different one when all appear the same.  Sane.  Rational.
 Reasonable.  The world is full of these types of people.  Or, have I got it
backwards?

>Be what are, not you would like to be seen to be.
>Not what you think you are.. but what you are truly.

That's tough isn't it?  We can recreate ourselves in a different image.  I
think even the illusion is part of whom one is.  The illusion might be ugly
like hypocrisy or the split ends of frazzy hair.  Do you choose to cut it out
or leave it as it is?

Always F2F with ourselves, part of our psyches reflected on the screen.

>What's wrong with plain English?

-snip-

>Cut the bullshit in other words.

The fact that one expends energy gathering certain thoughts, expressing
certain feelings, that one spends time, . . . using a moment that will never
truly exist again, . . . that is important.

I have a question.  Is righteous cynicism motivated by a desire for
self-gratification?

I know that pleasure and pain are two eternal angels that move me, eternal in
the sense that if the chemicals exist then it is only a matter of time before
something evolves that will utilize this chemistry.  Contingent.  The
potentiality of matter will become self-evident given enough time.

>There's no greater feeling than thinking that at last you're >truly
understood.

Must be why God created Man (or evolution of sentient beings out of Nature).
 <g>

There's something profoundly wrong with your statement.  Smugness perhaps,
but not the greatest feeling.  It's a greater feeling to connect, to
understand and to be understood, to enter onto common ground.

We'll never see all of the same movies, read all of the same books, undergo
all of the same experiences.  Yet, we share our being here.  One can see that
as special or not.  I know that a part of me is that part of the environment
I interact with.

Sometimes, my state of mind is influenced by what I read.  Like the beginning
of Kerouac's Desolation Angels or the flashbacks of his Doctor Sax.
 Musically . . . I think of Warhol's Velvet Underground.

Indeed, state of mind.  The difference between heaven and hell.

"The identity of dreadfulness and bliss, these two faces on the same divine
head, indeed this one single face, which just presents itself this way or
that, according to our distance from it or the state of mind in which we
perceive it . . ." (Rilke)

For the more contemporary:  See the movie, Jacob's Ladder.

>Why is netsex such a motivating force?

Don't know what netsex is.  Do know that expression can be beautiful and/or
sexy.  Evokes feelings.  Cerebral stimulation.

There's Netsex, but what of Love?  . . . that magical, golden moment when the
line, that divides two distinct human beings, dissolves.  Where is Love in
cyberspace?

A question I will ask the psychologists:  "Can we reduce the psychology of a
list to a chemical brew?"  I have my own answer to this question but await
others.

>A hell of an Ego trip.

A trip of an Ego hell. <g>  Naturally, I've rearranged your original message
for my own means.  Diabolical recreation.

I had strange dreams last night.  You want to know what's funny?  After our
bodies are dead and gone, these words will remain in an archive somewhere,
fresh as the day they were written.  Like vampires.  Tortured souls.

Why this need to spill my mind?

John

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 06 18:30:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: on lurkers and unlurking
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 01:30:51 -0500

At 08:39 PM 4/5/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear all--after some time simply "listening" to the conversation, I wanted to
>chime in.
>
>1--On the Nature of Lurkers. It strikes me that while we've been discussing the
>core of relationships as grounded in authenticity and someone (sorry I don't
>recall who) suggested that it was especially important not to objectify others,
>that that is exactly what is being done re "lurkers." All of us folk sitting
>back listening have been tossed into the same kettle and talked about as
>objects out there rather than people in here. Isn't it legitimate to quietly

I have to agree with the point that calling people lurkers is indeed
objectifying them.  Quite perceptive, Susan.  There aren't many people that
realize that categorization of any number of people into a group is
objectifying them.  My mother figured that was the main cause of the World
War II, and she grew up right in the middle of the worst of it..  (and no,
she's not German or Jewish)  She made very sure that I recognized that there
were no bad "individuals" but when people were treated as a group, then the
real atrocities occured.  That "objectification" was at work in the
persecution of the German population and their starvation.  Hitler preached
an "objectification" of the population to a Nation-state as a solution to
their starvation.  Then in turn the people of Jewish descent were
"objectified" which brought on the Holocaust.


<snip>

>their writing style "bullshit" as over the line. Civility and politeness seem
>to me to go much further in making a point and in building community than
>rudeness.
>

Ah, but you wouldn't be an active part of the group without the affront!
Groups need a villian and a common cause, it brings people together
(strange breed that we are!).  Community comes about by shared stuggle, not
by being polite.  I nominate Lauren in the role of demon to be overcome!

>2--On the Nature of Poetry.

<snip>

Poetry isn't real, it's poetry.  While there may be some echo of real
sentiment there, and sometimes people like to search for feeling by writing
poety.. Poetry is about images, it's about pictures and images, it's polite,
but life rarely is.  This list has little said and done from the "I" level.
Much in the way of professional politeness, but little in the way of real
human feelings.  Much in the way of polite, intellectual, creative
investigation, but little in the way of raw human emotion.  (expect the
thread on suicide.. but who knows why that person killed themselves?)

I'm still looking for some discussion on the Psychology of Listserv
groups...  Where's the formula?  Where's the diagram?  Where are the working
definitions?  Where's the discussion of the roles being played with the
gloves off?  Often politeness is little more than hidden resentment, the
politest societies are also the most rigid and violent.

I'm getting to the point where I wonder if the entire mental health
profession is so lost in their own minds that they don't understand the
reality of life.  This listserv microcosm is quite far from any of the
listserv's that I've been a member of, but that doesn't change that no
personal, introspective musings can possibly be considered any sort of
investigation into the psychology of listserv groups..

On the other hand, this group seems to have the same players, they just play
behind a different set of habits and terminology with professional ego's and
less real information.  Come on, I'm here to get into the psychology of
listserv's not to wind thru the psychology of the other individuals here.
You're all playing with the same emotions that we all are, you're just
hiding them from yourselves and obfuscating them to the rest of us.

OK, so I'm on a rant, but this is getting my goat!  Where is the open
discussion about the psychology of listserv's?  Someone explain to me like a
four year old where the discussion of the psychology of listserv's is
happening?  I've seen the mediator try to sort out his position, but that's
an individual exercise rather than an observation about the nature of the
listserv.  There's been the discussion of "soul" like there is any doubt
that we each have one. (but I have to wonder about some people's
definition..)  There's been the discussion of whether what is typed is real
or not.. if the converstation's have meaning?  If they don't, then why are
you here?

Tell you what, if you're not breathing a little faster after reading this,
then this message isn't real, just ignore it, it'll go away....

On the other hand, if I've managed to create a basal response, don't correct
my position, mention how offended you are, or politely inquire about a point
in my message.  Talk about the psychology of the listserv and what the human
involvement in a listserv actually is!

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Apr 06 20:10:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: How real is real?
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 03:10:32 EST

Wilbur and Psyberians,

Wilbur:
>I don't agree!


And what can weDO with that?

With respect
Jurek

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Apr 06 22:13:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 05:13:10 EST

Dolores, Robert, Walter and Psyberians,

>There is no such thing as good or bad poetry when it is written for the
>self. Poetry should always be written from the self, to oneself. That is
>when it has meaning, when it comes from the soul.

I would like to put forward the metaphor of our INNER DIALOGUE with INNER
VOICES.
Writing poetry to one self - is it not as hearing the voice in one selv?
Now, why constrain it to poetry? Are we not all full of the voices all the time?
Voices of our parents, spouses, children, co-workers, leaders.... I had a lot
conversation with You Walter and Robert before putting MY words on computers
keyboard.
When we are cleared in our minds then we let hear OUR voice externally. Playing
the games in
(real) world. Or replaying it (rehearsing?) in psychodrama therapy?

Maybe the lurkers are more to inner dialog that to outer dialog?

"Actually I only want to say that a language game is only possible if you trust
something. (I did not say  "Can trust something")"- Wittgenstein.

Best regards
Jurek

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Apr 06 22:28:40 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: boiling down to essence
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 05:28:40 EST

Susan

>Please lets not boil down to essences--in the process, I fear, the essence will
be lost..
Let me quote:
"The Essence of arithmetics we have learned through doing arithmetics" -
Wittgenstein

Thank You for taking me on flight with your words.
Swan is very powerful symbol and metaphor in a country where H.C. Andersen was
born.

Jurek

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Apr 06 22:35:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: sunny Easter Saturday
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 05:35:36 EST

>Walter
>Pulled between the garden which needs work on a wonderful autumn
>Easter Saturday -- and the thrill of the action reaction here.

The same feeling here Walter, only we have a spring now (and we are in the only
sunny spot in Europe for the moment).
Jurek

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sun Apr 07 01:59:57 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat amongst the cyberpigeons
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 14:59:57 +0100

Well in order of appearence in my mailbox...

Susan, you missed the point entirely. Prehaps I should have been clearer,
though some people seemed to have understood. Maybe I was talking too plainly.
Language is a beautiful thing. Language is life, it is the embodiement of
emotion, it is the expression of the inner self. When I write I am myself.
My true self, because I put part of me on the page, exposed, laid bare for
all to see.

To quote somebody on this list.." Writing activates the imagination, the
psyche, the soul. Words like the eyes are windows into the soul. Text is a
channel for intimacy
because it is linked to the cunc (consciousness? Walter what was that word?)

What I was trying to say is best illustrated thus..

Martin Luther King.. I have a dream

Wouldnt quite sound the same when put..

I have a morphic vision of the ultimate paradigm while in a REM state

Would it..
And why? Because it wouldnt have been understood by half the community to
which it was addressed.

Now nowhere in Walters dream, (Walters dream for this list is what attracted
me here in the first place)  did it say one had to be a psychiatrist,
psychotherapist or anything else prefixed with psych.
Having sat on the list for a couple of weeks it occured to me, that people
werent showing themselves as much as showing their accademic prowess.
Immensely irritating because I wasnt able to connect to half of the things
they were saying. They were using the language of the psych academic. One I
dont know. My point was that this is insular, it will not bring people, who
though not professional trained, still have something relevant and
worthwhile to say, to the list and keep them there. The list will stagnate
in time. Secondly, it is the true self that shines in text, the difference
between an accademic drawing of swords and a debate between two souls. Thats
when we will all come to know each other, when we drop the bullshit and
speak as we would.

It was that to which I refered when I spoke of frills.. not Roberts writing.
Robert I hope now understands that. His poetry in French is beautiful. It
comes from the soul. From the place that is really Robert.

  " I see no reason for frontal attacks and see calling others people's
contributions or
their writing style "bullshit" as over the line. Civility and politeness seem
to me to go much further in making a point and in building community than
rudeness"

I saw a reason. .Now why I should sit here and pretend to be something I am
not, is not something I dont intend to do. Civility and politeness count for
diddly actually, because they are not words that came from within me at the
time. I wanted to rant and rave and I did. But I wasnt afraid of the
consequences. Civility and politeness never make for good debate. Tea Time
conversation is at times infinitly less preferable and has been illustrated
wildly less productive than a good old fashioned slanging match.

So Im not going to apologise for leaping wildly into the group of pigeons,
or swans claws extended and with the intent to scatter them into the
air..and to catch a few falling feathers.

Dolores

Btw In order to end speculation I am a she cat.

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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Sun Apr 07 03:12:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Reality, Sensation, and the Imagination
From: "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:12:21 -0500

Fellow Psybernetters---

The conversational thread on the question "what is reality?" strikes me as
fundamental to this list.  Does anyone have a simple answer?  I don't.   :-)

I do, however, tend to agree with Robert de Cyberie who notes:

>        Relationship exists here. This is real. The smiles you bring to my
>face or my mind are real. The confusion, the anger, the agreement, the pain
>and sorrow are real, the compassion is real.

Ok...this is real...but what about our sensory experience?  What about the
many people I've met online who claim that cyberrelationships are
"pseudo"relationships?  Their arguments generally involve the claim that
lack of face-to-face contact invalidates or devalues the relationship...that
a "true" relationship _requires_ f2f contact.  Personally, I find many
difficulties with this assessment...1) it overlooks the psychological
and emotive power of cyberspace as a medium for communication, and 2) it
finds the common denominator in real life (read, true) relationships at the
level of physical contact.

Surely, sensory experience is a necessity for establishing relationships in
"reality"...but where does the evidence of the senses fit in cyberspace?
Along these lines, what is the connection of the imagination to the senses?

Enquiring minds want to know,

Steve Hoath

P.S.

On occasion, I like flame wars...they generally reveal a great deal about
the ego's of others.  What's most interesting to me, however, is the
question of what's feeding the flames?  This requires
vulnerability...bashing others or hiding behind academic posturing is easy
compared to letting down the guard and looking at oneself in an open forum.

****************************************************************************

This message made with 100% recycled electrons.

This message made with 100% recycled electrons.

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Sun Apr 07 03:20:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . .
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:20:26 -0500

Dolores/Laurel

>Language is a beautiful thing. Language is life, it is the embodiement of
>emotion, it is the expression of the inner self. When I write I am myself.
 >My true self, because I put part of me on the page, exposed, laid bare >for
all to see.

Language is a lie and actions speak louder than words.  Show me an authentic
person and you'll see a silent one.  But then, I don't always choose truth
over beauty.

John

"Art is a lie that lets us see the truth."  Pablo Picasso

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 07 04:25:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls.
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:25:17 -0600

Dear Laurel and fellow Psyberians,

        Here in the Siberian like spaces of my home, the sun is shining and
the temperature is a balmy -2 C. The whiteness of winter is beginning to
evaporate into the colours of spring, a season of birth / rebirth. Using
that as introduction, I want to note that this _list_ is also finding a
moment of colour and showing signs of being reborn. Strange that Walter
approaches this time and metaphor as fall/autumn. Walter, how do you
understand the growth of community and dialogue here?

>Robert this was not a personal attack on you. Please do not think it was.
>The use of the word *your* was generic throughout.

        Laurel, a parry and thrust of the pen (keyboard?), a new mode of
tilting at windmills, this is how I understand the dance of conflict. Since
we are all blind here, stripped of most of our senses, we tend to distribute
our anger, angst, applause, friendship, and even our love broadly. I realize
that your words were not spoken to me specifically, but to a group of beings.

>I think codpieces came before mascara and lipstick.
>Is it any surprise that in fact its normally the male of many a species
>that is more conspicuous by its plumage?

        Touche! Your words cause me to wonder about this medium. Do words
now replace codpieces and mascara as plumage?

>Andy Warhol (I managed to spell it right this time) said that eventually
>everybody would be famous for 10 or 15 mins. He was I believe refering to
>television. He wasnt alive when the internet took off or he would probably
>have applied it here.

        Thank you for the clarification.
>My point was that
>here everybody has a voice. Those who dare not speak in real life find
>their *moment of fame, of glory and attention. That is why mailing lists
>are so successful and so addictive.

        This is definitely very much what we need to expand upon in the
discussion of _list_ psychology.

>Robert,  a mon avis, le Francais est la plus belle langue de la monde.
>C'est la langue de romance, de l'histoire, de l'art et de la culture.  Et
>si tu veux m'envoyer aucune de tes poemes, j'aimerais les lire. (amazing
>what you can do with a dictionary)

        Quelle surprise! La Dame sait parler le francais. Ne soit pas si
modeste. Tu le parles tres bien! Je t'enverrai ma poesie hors du ligne.

>There is no such thing as good or bad poetry when it is written for the
>self. Poetry should always be written from the self, to oneself. That is
>when it has meaning, when it comes from the soul.

        I agree with you completely here, Laurel. Yet, the poet within does
want to have the poem touch the core of another / others. Poems are also
dialogic in that they have an audience. Can you not hear the poet speaking
to YOU across the years and centuries, across distance and cultures?

>The danger is the fantasy element. And nobody will deny that cyberspace
>hurts. It hurts like hell. It hurts because its a betrayal of who we
>really are when we learn to trust and find out that the placement of that
>trust was all an illusion.

        We create the illusions, the fantasies. Since life in cyberia hurts
(and feels good as well), this place must be real; we must be real in this
place. We create our own pain and pleasure even in the f2f dimension.

>There are more aspects to netsex than meet the eye. This is where the
>media have netsexing wrong, when they focus on criticicising the horny net
>geeks. That is all they see. netsex is more than just a self perpetuating
>masturbatory fantasy. I think it can be the biggest form of self-therapy
>available in cyberspace - one area thats totaly neglected. That will
>probably bring the wrath of a dozen psych types down on my head.

        Self-therapy? Perhaps group therapy (we are a group here though we
are *apparently* separated by time, distance and screens). This does indeed
need to be considered, and this is a likely place in which to carry on that
study (Walter?)

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 07 04:25:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: on lurkers and unlurking
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:25:31 -0600

Susan and fellow Psyberians,

        Susan, I find your words express well the idea that Martin Buber
gave voice to in his study of communication.

        On the Nature of Lurkers. It strikes me that while we've been
        discussing the core of relationships as grounded in authenticity
        and someone (sorry I don't recall who) suggested that it was
        especially important not to objectify others, that that is exactly
        what is being done re: "lurkers." All of us folk sitting back
        listening have been tossed into the same kettle and talked about
        as objects out there rather than people in here. Isn't it
        legitimate to quietly participate in a conversation by listening
        (yes, really listening!)?

        Very much so, a listserv is composed of the listeners as well as the
vocalizers (as are most group interactions - my classroom for example.
Sometimes I wonder what I have to do to get the silent to speak). As within
a classroom, one knows that those who are silent are *present*, they are
engaged with those speaking as they learn. Those speaking are aware of (and
speak accordingly) those who withhold their voice. That this forum should
expect different would be to expect us to leave our basic human natures out
of the interaction.

>Up until Laurel's posting, I had felt warmly
>connected to the "list," even as a newbie--indeed had I not already
>sketched out notes on the nature of lurkers, I would likely not have >posted.

        For this, I give Laurel thanks. She has accomplished much in drawing
you into the "voiced" part of our community.

>One thing that I've discovered is that, yes, some people do talk like
>our compatriates Robert, Mila, Walter, Stephen, etc. -- and what playful
>conversations can emerge!

        You honour me madame, with inclusion.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 07 04:25:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The Black Sheep of Cyber Souls
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:25:41 -0600

John,

>The title fascinates me.

        And its author fascinates me. I try to make connections just beyond
the words, to the speaker of those words.

>Black sheep.  I understand that, but why does the title evoke images of
lost souls for me?  The word itself, Cyber, seems to conjure an image of a
>desolate space like a place of snowy exile in northern Siberia.
>
>Brrr . . . it's cold in here.

        Hmm-mm-mn? Empty space, lack of light and the warmth of human love.
Sorry, I don't see this place that way. People live and work and thrive in
Siberia and in Cyberia. And as Laurel so correctly noted, people love here
as well. Our images have their roots in our understandings and our personal
realities.

>Even with the growth of cold, unfeeling technology there is the
>underlying visceral need for passion, some that can only be expressed as
>ultraviolence.

        Why violence? Why don't we take this medium as our ONLY venue for
meeting and talking and listening without the need to be violent? Yet I know
you are right. Humans are violent. Humans are the citizens of this realm as
well.

>There's something profoundly wrong with your statement.  Smugness perhaps,
>but not the greatest feeling.  It's a greater feeling to connect, to
>understand and to be understood, to enter onto common ground.

        Where is the wrongness? in the words of the speaker? If we speak
what we feel, there is no wrongness. My friend (may I call you that?), to
label right/wrong is to limit discourse and thought and understanding to a
finite, definable, limitable status. By so defining, we lose much of who we are.

>Why this need to spill my mind?

        Well spilt, John! I trust that you'll be engaging in some more
*spilling* of your mind in the future.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 07 04:25:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: on lurkers and unlurking
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:25:49 -0600

Wilbur,

        I enjoyed your comments regarding Susan's discussion of *lurkers*.
I, too, don't enjoy the word. Your analogy is excellent!

WS>I nominate Lauren in the role of demon to be overcome!

        Sounds like 1984 to me. I don't see any demons. Why do we need to
create a demon in order to *rally the troops*? Listen to the words and their
echos within. The demons are found within ourselves (shadows?).

WS>Poetry isn't real, it's poetry.  While there may be some echo of real
WS>sentiment there, and sometimes people like to search for feeling by
WS>writing poety.. Poetry is about images, it's about pictures and images,
WS>it's polite, but life rarely is.

        Niether is painting real, nor a bridge, nor a pyramid. Polite? I
think not all ppoems are about *daffodils*. Sir, you have besmirched my
honour as a poet and that calls for a duel. The weapons of choice - a
keyboard or a mouse.

WS>I'm still looking for some discussion on the Psychology of Listserv
WS>groups...  Where's the formula?  Where's the diagram?  Where are the
WS>working definitions?

        Diagram? Formula? Definitions? I thought we were discussing the
psychology of listserv's? Are you suggesting that we must follow a manual of
some sort to be having this discussion? Sorry, but the text hasn't been
published yet. We'll have to make it up as we go (don't you just hate this
experiential learning?).

>I'm getting to the point where I wonder if the entire mental health
>profession is so lost in their own minds that they don't understand the
>reality of life.

        Sound like you've dropped your gloves. Help! Au secours! Walter!

WS>Come on, I'm here to get into the psychology of
WS>listserv's not to wind thru the psychology of the other individuals
WS>here. You're all playing with the same emotions that we all are, you're
WS>just hiding them from yourselves and obfuscating them to the rest of us.

        A listserv doesn't have a psychology, the people within do. What we
need to explore here is ourselves in relation to the medium, the forum. What
is different? how are we different?

Robert de Cyberie

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sun Apr 07 04:55:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat On a hot tin truth. . .
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 17:55:22 +0100

Dear John, and anybody else who can be bothered not to hit the delete key,

First a quick word to Walter.. Demon moi?

Not last time I checked for horns and a tail. - Besides I was in church a
couple of years ago, and I dont recall being repelled at the door by an army
of priests toting crucifixes and showering me with holy water, chanting "Get
thee behind me, Dolores" in immaculate Latin.

First Lesson in demonology -

The worse sort of Devil is the one that wears a fair face.

>>Language is a beautiful thing. Language is life, it is the embodiement of
>>emotion, it is the expression of the inner self. When I write I am myself.
> >My true self, because I put part of me on the page, exposed, laid bare >for
>all to see.
>
>Language is a lie and actions speak louder than words.  Show me an authentic
>person and you'll see a silent one.  But then, I don't always choose truth
>over beauty.

Isnt truth an essential of beauty? The most beautiful words are those spoken
with absoloute truth.  I love you, being the most beautiful of them all when
spoken that way - of course I love you when spoken with untruth.. has to be
the greatest lie of all.
Language a lie? Nah. its a means to lie.

" What tape?" Richard Nixon

Language, is a means to express that which is internal externally (amongst
other things of course). -but then only If we let it.
Its a means of  expression sought by our *inner voice*
Why do people keep diaries? A diary never lies to the person writing it.
In my humble opinion..Speech is a means to express what we actively *want*
to convey. We tend to use it differently - speech is far more liable to
contain a plausible and deliberate lie, and yet stll ring true. Insincerity
in writing is far easier to spot - perhaps we have a little more time to
reflect.

Speech does not come from within in the same way.  When it does these are
the people to whom we listen most closely. Think of the great orators of the
world, who speak from within. You know when their words have truth..because
they have feeling, because they very often send a shiver down your spine.
You pick up the feeling and the truth.  Course Hitler rather blows that
theory, he was a great orator, and just goes to illustrate the point how we
can be fooled by the emotion of anothers truth. Who is Jimmy Swaggert? The
point is that you can be easily carried away by the emotion within anothers
speech, because its immediate, thats why its easy to plausibly lie in
speech.  Immediacy means our suspension of disbelief is far more automatic.
When something's *not* immediate we are far more likely to examine its
sincerity.

This is the major difference between discussion on the IRC (inter relay chat
for those that dont do it) and a mailing list.

We cannot lie about who we really are. We can only try to conceal it from
ourselves and others. Eventually we get found out. Worse still is when we
find we have been lying to ourselves.

I have a friend who is a writer.. he says that every time he writes he dies
a little, because he leaves a bit of himself on the page. He doesnt say that
about when he speaks.

Actually to tell the truth on the outside when you first meet him he can
come across as a bit of an asshole. But when he writes, and you know him for
what he is..you realise that thats because he makes himself so vulnerable
when he does write. We can see who he really is so he puts up a different
face to the outside world. But he cant hide the truth as to who he really
is. Its there in black and white.

Dolores

Who is going to take a brief respite from cluttering up the list.

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Apr 07 04:55:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Varieties of CyberPsych
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:55:25 GMT

Robert de Cyberie and all,


>         I think Laurel was speaking in terms of my _bullshit_. However,
> perhaps she/he (can one ever know on internet other than through the words
> of the speaker?) was spreading the flame around.

Laurel / Dolores has made it clear it was not personal to you.  Well
perhaps it was _my_ bullshit?  I did not take it personally, but it
made me think and feel.  I have many layers-- we all do and some of
them seem like bullshit to others.  Perhaps we are at the _ego_ level
of this groups development -- that aspect of us that comes to the fore
in new situations.  Jung's Aion -- a Phenomenology of the Self  --
claims to follow nature of the unconscious and begins with chapters on
Ego and Shadow.  We seem to be following in that direction!

>         And topics which appeal to me (which me?).

What were you thinking of?

>         Yet, can we be tolerant of those who are not so tolerant so that we
> may be able to understand better the need to flame, the need to use straight
> jackets to circumscribe conversations to fit _agendas_?

Cyberspace is full of pain -- flames -- are natural here -- there are
varieties of flames -- as well as earth, air and water.  What would
the psyche or a list that wishes to meet her be without all of these
elements.  I hope we have the guts to -- more than tolerate them --
welcome them.

> >And isn't that also a part of the "psychology of mailing lists"?
> >
> >Lists are arenas in which a diversity of topics are discussed, and that
> >simple fact can, from time to time, frustrate or infuriate us?

>         Regardless of our reaction, it is important to note the presence of
> reaction, the presence of another being. With this interaction we are
> face-to-face with the psychology of a listserv.

Yes -- and what a thing it is then that you and Laurel speak of the
possibility of being kicked off!  That came as a surprise -- It feels
as if neither of you are seriously thinking this is an option.  And it
isn't.

It does happen though -- I was on a list where someone was banished --
what a business -- and then let back on!

Walter
Pulled between the garden which needs work on a wonderful autumn
Easter Saturday -- and the thrill of the action reaction here.


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Sun Apr 07 08:54:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat On a hot tin truth. . .
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:54:08 -0500

Psyber folks,

>Isnt truth an essential of beauty?

Laurel, I'm not sure I'm up to a discussion of what beauty is.  I know that a
lie, the illusion of reality, can be beautiful and to me even horror can be
of sublime beauty.  That is my quirk.

Some people see beautiful truth (as opposed to the ugly truth as in bills <g>
) in numbers.  But something is lost when everything is reduced to numbers.
 I think the human element is what determines what is beautiful regardless of
an ultimate truth.

>The most beautiful words are those spoken
>with absoloute truth.

Anytime I see absolutes in a sentence then I see it as suspect, mine
included.

>I love you, being the most beautiful of them all when
>spoken that way - of course I love you when spoken with >untruth.. has to be
the greatest lie of all.

I know when I experience love.  Simple words don't change much.  "I love you"
and "I'm sorry."  These words are repeated every minute of every day but the
mistakes leading to them are enacted by couples over and over again.  Nothing
ever really changes.

>Language a lie? Nah. its a means to lie.

Yes, but language can never fully capture the essence of an experience.  It
may come close as in the general supposition that French is the language of
lovers.

Lovers are also liars.  <g>

>Language, is a means to express that which is internal  >externally (amongst
other things of course). -but then only If >we let it.  Its a means of
expression sought by our *inner >voice*

Language expresses some need or desire.  "I write these words to purge the
demons.  The ancients understood this madness."  - - my words

Language is a binding and it is a creating.  "And who shall bind the infinite
with an eternal band?"  - - William Blake

>Why do people keep diaries? A diary never lies to the person >writing it.

Some try to cover their asses with it.

>Think of the great orators of the world, who speak from >within. You know
when their words have truth..because
>they have feeling, because they very often send a shiver down >your spine.
 You pick up the feeling and the truth.  Course >Hitler rather blows that
theory, he was a great orator, and >just goes to illustrate the point how we
can be fooled by the >emotion of anothers truth.

I would have thought just the opposite.  That the great orator is a vessel
that holds the water of the collective unconscious and at times this vessel
provides springs of flowing water to the masses.  I always thought that the
hero loses himself in the collectivity.  And, the hero "stands close to Jesus
'n' Satan, they're both the same".

Do we ever have false emotions?  How does an actor find his true self?

>Immediacy means our suspension of disbelief is far more >automatic.

The hypnotist and magician is a master of holding an illusion.  Words are a
vehicle to that realization.  Former U.S. president, Ronald Reagan was called
a master orator (also called the Teflon president).  He scored a huge coup
with his speech after the Challenger disaster.  Bush had his 'thousand points
of light'.  Clinton . . . ?

I wonder though, haven't we had enough of politicians of hollow words?  Let's
take back our legitimate right to govern ourselves.  More rhetoric?

>We can see who he really is so he puts up a different
>face to the outside world. But he cant hide the truth as to who >he really
is. Its there in black and white.

Truth can be beautiful or ugly.  Truth can maim.  It can kill.  I try to make
the difficult decision between truth and illusion, sometimes I choose the
illusion.

Freedom is a higher ideal for me than black-and-white truth.  The exercise of
possibilities has more power than that restriction to:  "Thou shalt not".

<g> Tomorrow you may catch me singing a different tune.

>The worse sort of Devil is the one that wears a fair face.

    "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy
covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the
jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold:  the
workmanship of thy taborets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day
that thou wast created."
     "Thou art the anointed cherub that coverth; and I have set thee so:
 thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the
midst of the stones of fire."
     "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till
iniquity was found in thee."  Ezekiel 28:13-15

>Who is going to take a brief respite from cluttering up the >list.

When you return . . .

John

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Sun Apr 07 08:54:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The Black Sheep of Cyber Souls
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:54:13 -0500

Robert,

I said to Laurel:
>>There's something profoundly wrong with your statement.  >>Smugness
perhaps, but not the greatest feeling.  It's a >>greater feeling to connect,
to understand and to be >>understood, to enter onto common ground.

You replied:
>       Where is the wrongness? in the words of the speaker? If >we speak
what we feel, there is no wrongness.

Yes, but am I wrong?  Let me restate.  "There's something profoundly wrong
with your statement, as I see it."  I am not specifically using wrong to mean
that what was said was patently false.  The meaning of the statement comes
through a guise.

Cool sarcasm.  Facetiousness.  Is it only the reader?  Hints of a tone in a
message can come through if we're sensitive enough.  If we're too sensitive,
the space ignites because the inner voice is not always right.

I understand Laurel's reference to the pleasure of being understood.  But,
real understanding would have to be mutual communication, as I have seen,
having been in the teaching situation myself.  I am talking about
understanding as relating.  I make a distinction from the understanding
characteristic of assimilating math formulas, for instance.  That type of
understanding is largely for the talking heads.

>Empty space, lack of light and the warmth of human love.
>Sorry, I don't see this place that way. People live and work >and thrive in
Siberia and in Cyberia. And as Laurel so >correctly noted, people love here
as well. Our images have >their roots in our understandings and our personal
realities.

I once knew an Iranian who told me that even though their women were covered
from head to feet, he could tell if the woman was very beautiful by getting a
glimpse of her ankle.

I can see beauty here and truth.  I'm not so sure about the depth of
connectivity.  Connection is not really connection.  Social intercourse.
 Sure.

>My friend (may I call you that?), to label right/wrong is to >limit
discourse and thought and understanding to a finite, >definable, limitable
status. By so defining, we lose much of >who we are.

We lose a lot when we put words to screen.  What words can I use to express
my meaning?

I think the critical element has to be here in this space because it enhances
our awareness.  In that sense our understanding is increased.  So, we gain
something.

One's goal is important.  That critical element has to be ultimately
constructive and not solely destructive.

>Why violence? Why don't we take this medium as our ONLY >venue for meeting
and talking and listening without the need >to be violent? Yet I know you are
right. Humans are violent.

Let me emphasize passion and not limit ourselves to its violent aspect.
 Sometimes, I enjoy immensely the rush of that energy of passion.  I am
alive.

>        Well spilt, John! I trust that you'll be engaging in some >more
*spilling* of your mind in the future.

I'm not going to cry about it.  <g>

John

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Sun Apr 07 09:14:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: on civility and on language
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 15:14:17 -0600

Dolores/Laurel and other cyberians:

Whether on a list or in FTF, it is not, IMO, acceptable to rant and rave just
because one wants to do so. I may want to hit my 8 yr. old who just trashed the
kitchen, but that is neither legitimate  nor especially useful in teaching her
ood skills in conflict management. I do not agree that good debate requires
verbal aggression--and indeed there is a fair amount of current academic
research that suggests that argumentativeness and verbal aggression are
separate and that while the first is potentially positive intellectually and
relationally the latter is not. I also do not agree that politeness and
civility breeds what might be called only "teatime conversation."  Continuing
the connection with Buber, an I-Thou relationship includes assertion, but it
does not include aggression towardthe other. Defensive-creating behavior breeds
only other defensive behavior, unless the recipient is skilled enough to
consciously choose supportive behavior (wich I must compliment Robert on doing
beautifully) and thus interrupt the defensive cycle. Martin Luther King's dream
is appropriate here in more than just eloquence--he argued assertively for
non-violence as the only just tool to overcome oppression; it was a militant
non-violence, but he was strongly opposed to bashing as a means to much of
anything worthwhile(whether that bashing was verbal or physical).
        In terms of the thread on language, it is unlikely that I "missed the
point entirely"--we are dealing with a continuum rather than absolutes. In
academic cultures, language does come to be used in specialized ways so that
the concepts can be identified and, yes, even called into reality. This is true
in any other type of culture as well. The language gives us ways of thinking
about and then talking about things more easily. Like any other culture,
including that of internet lists, socialization into the culture includes
developing new vocabularies. The rarest, and typically most prized, individuals
(unless their role is seen as subversive to whatever establishment there is) are
the "liaisons" who can take the talk of one culture and make it accessible to
another. There are some sitting in this conversation (around the kitchen table,
in my mental image) who do this well and others who are more "within" the
jargon; I find I may be confused at times because I certainly don't know all
the words and references --and bless those souls who help me to come to
appreciate the beauty of the specialized as well as general language being
used. It seems that the learning-curve to understand the new culture via its
specialized language can be quicker on a net-discussion than in face to face
because of the diversity of voices and access to more interpreters. Does the
net interaction because of its immediacy of delivery lead sometimes to the
expectation of instant understanding? Perhaps that is part of the same approach
that leads to channel surfing on the television? (Wilbur, I think this has
wandered over to your thread--how much patience is there for "coming to know"
via the Internet? I grew up with books rather than keypads, and am not much of
a television watcher, and bring an expectation of time required for figuring
out a new venue or coming into a coversation. Would this be different for
someone who grew up with a more technologically mediated background? Or for
someone who spends lots of time on the net in conversation? What does this mean
for "marketing" a list? Must attention and understanding be immediate lest
someone simply unsubscribe or lest a project have funding cut for not having
enough hits on a web-page? What implications might this have for a list
facilitator? Walter--do you take it personally when someone unsubscribes or see
that as part of the wandering in and out of this medium? There are lots of
questions about the psychology of building this new culture--and how then to
guide future architecture? oh, well-I've wandered and must go dye Easter eggs
with the aforementioned 8 yr old. Thanks for listening.
                                Susan


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From vicki@BGA.COM Sun Apr 07 10:45:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Don't call me a lurker!
From: Vicki Colker <vicki@BGA.COM>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:45:52 -0600

Dear Robert and dear list members, all of you:

Thank you, Robert, for your gallantry:  I appreciate your invitation to let
my "full voice" be heard.
>
>        Then, this seems to be exactly where you want to be.  The psychology
>of a listserv is about the relationships of those who find themselves part
>of a listserv community.
>
Indeed:  and with this as its stated purpose, you are correct sir, Psyberia
is exactly where I wish to be (well, not exclusively . . .)

I know you've all read my original concern, but let me restate it again,
even after reading various discussions:
How are we to discern between appropriate posturing on-line and
downright artifice?

Your response, Robert, certainly contained truths.  You wrote, "We do not
know, nor can we create, that which is not part of us.  Perhaps the
posing, posturing and artifice are not so far from the beings that we really
are?"

Perhaps yes, there is a bit of a scholar in each person who poses as an
intellectual online.  Certainly there is a bit of the suave debonair
gentleman in the lonely, gangly young man who professes to look like JFK,
Jr.  In the situation of a man who pretends to be a woman online, we can
rationalize that we all have both feminine and masculine energies within
us, I suppose.
But, let's talk practically here for a moment.  In your life, in your
interactions online, if you (not just you, Robert, but all of you, list
members) were to begin a relationship with someone who eventually is
revealed as a completely different character than they "played," how would
you respond?  We are not discussing roles in an established online game of
any sort.  I am speaking of social interaction, with the only difference
being that it is online rather than face to face.  Would you be so
generous, so open-minded if you discovered that your new pal had been
impersonating a vastly different personage --morals, ethics, beliefs,
appearance, sexuality, behavior totally inconsistent with whom they
purported to be?

I think not.

Vicki
Authentic, always

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From vicki@BGA.COM Sun Apr 07 10:56:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls.
From: Vicki Colker <vicki@BGA.COM>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 16:56:59 -0600

Laurel (and other list members),

You wrote,
>> Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list.

Yes, I have noticed that on this list particularly.  But not on all.  In
fact, not on most.

And I am the same onlist, off list.

Also, about mascara and lipstick, mentioned as ego-building devices:

I don't care what you call 'em.  I think mascara and the wonderbra are a
couple of humankind's great inventions.

So there.

Vicki

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Apr 07 13:53:07 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls.
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 01:53:07 GMT

Laurel,

Your post -- its title and the themes, certainly have made an impact,
on me, on others.  Not polite as Susan called it.

> This is also the place of the pseudo-soul. Its the place of the *player*
> It's the place to show off a thinly-veiled ego.

Ego trip, pseudo-soul, Herculean tasks . . . we do all this on this
stage here . . . this is life, and there is heaps more, how come the
attack?  What is your part here?  I suppose a bringing down to earth .
. . yet (in a later post) I was impressed as you see that Robert's
wing need no wax!

> Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list.

I like what you say about how we talk here!  What makes you so angry
though?  It is this facility here to be somewhere between being in a
novel and in our own journal, and chatting in a pub and doing a thesis
on list psychology (we are Wilbur!)  That is the thing about real life
-- we cant see the email.

> No growth just stagnant discussion and re
> discussion.

Do you despair of this?  I hate being caught in a repetitive cycle.
This dialogue has some of that quality -- yet there is something fresh
-- we seem highly _conscious_ in the midst of a group life theme.

> Cut the bullshit in other words.

Brings the question of what is _real_ right into the here & now.
Think  this is a moment of bullshit?  I don't. Yet I do not have a
sense of being with you as a person either . . .

> Get important topics discussed

Go for it -- and you are.  It is possible to talk _about_ say, netsex,
IRC, and what happens on other lists etc. sharing experiences here is
of a different order, it involves developing trust, and also working
within the holding place we make here.   What do you think?  It is
utterly on topic to discuss all that you mention -- all to do with the
psyche in cyberspace.

> Laurel
>
> a.k.a Dolores but then I can be who I want and what I want here. I choose to
> be myself.

That is a topic!  How do they get on Dolores and Laurel?  And how do
they relate to the person typing -- and does that matter?


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From hoon@APK.NET Sun Apr 07 13:54:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Don't call me a lurker!
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 20:54:41 -0500

>Would you be so
>generous, so open-minded if you discovered that your new pal had been
>impersonating a vastly different personage --morals, ethics, beliefs,
>appearance, sexuality, behavior totally inconsistent with whom they
>purported to be?
>
>I think not.
>
>Vicki
>Authentic, always

My experience: by the time I've unpacked my projections, be it here or f2f,
and then gotten into the open perceptual/interpretive space between the
unpacked projection(s) and the next round of projections, the person upon
whom I've been projecting does seem totally inconsistent with the person I
purported them to be.

Of course, this is just my experience.

Stephen.

A thin bright reed song,
if it should fade,
we fade.

--RUMI pbuh

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From sfuze@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET Sun Apr 07 14:43:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Don't call me a lurker!
From: "sfuze@tiac.net" <sfuze@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 21:43:06 -0500

Hi... I never formally introduced myself (I will when I get a chance), but
I felt compelled to respond to your post -- While I certainly believe most
people DO experiment and change their personas to fit the world of the baud,
I don't know of too many people who could truly pull off a switch in
morals/ethics/beliefs -- too many people are too egotistical on their
stances to too many things -- ie, you won't see too many pro-life people
fiddling around with being prochoice on the net, while you may see a number
of people trying out different viewpoints and sexual identities -- I think
the difference is that most people won't dispute something that is an
intrinsic belief of who they ARE (Freud's superego?), although they certainly
might (and do) experiment with other (and less intrinsic) facets of their
being.

For instance, if you look at my sig, I suppose you could think I was
a vicious assassin, had a sort of sick sense of humor, or was obsessed
with Miseur Boutros Boutros-Ghali (or that I just like to say his name...;)).

Most people don't take the time to get to know people in "real" life the
way they do online, but in so many ways there are also things you will miss
in online relationships that you could catch much quicker in person just
from the tilt of a head, the look in ones' eyes, the quirk of one's lips,
or the way a person speaks... Incidentally, I don't know too many people
who ask mundane questions (chit chat, if you will) in emails like they will
in mailed correspondence or even in person...

We are a product of our environments.  It just so happens that we are
learning to deal with a whole different ecosystem.

-Kyra.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The Lesson I learned in Cairo still applies. The only way to deal with
bureaucrats is with stealth and sudden violence."
                      -- U.N. Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali, 1993
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Sat, 6 Apr 1996, Stephen Calhoun wrote:

> >Would you be so
> >generous, so open-minded if you discovered that your new pal had been
> >impersonating a vastly different personage --morals, ethics, beliefs,
> >appearance, sexuality, behavior totally inconsistent with whom they
> >purported to be?
> >
> >I think not.
> >
> >Vicki
> >Authentic, always
>
> My experience: by the time I've unpacked my projections, be it here or f2f,
> and then gotten into the open perceptual/interpretive space between the
> unpacked projection(s) and the next round of projections, the person upon
> whom I've been projecting does seem totally inconsistent with the person I
> purported them to be.
>
> Of course, this is just my experience.
>
> Stephen.
>
> A thin bright reed song,
> if it should fade,
> we fade.
>
> --RUMI pbuh
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Sun Apr 07 17:12:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Magister-L was Re: Varieties of CyberPsych
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 21:12:26 -0800

Robert de Cyberie writes:

> Charles,

> You are a list owner? What is your list about?

The list is called Magister-L, and it discusses topics at the intersection
of spirituality (broadly interpreted to mean the mythical, the magical and
the mystical) and games.

There tend to be two distinct concerns on the list -- we need a term for
"groups of threads" that cluster around a common theme, don't we?  One has
to do with the use of magic in Role Playing Games (RPGs), and the
possibility of incorporating "authentic" magical insights from shamanism,
Renaissance hermeticism etc into games, and the other with the design and
playing of variants on Hesse's Glass Bead Game (GBGs).

Right now, there's a thread discussing the qlippoth (roughly, the shadows
of the sephiroth in Kabbalah), and another exploring some possible
chess-based games charged with symbolic content -- including the game of
"Enochian Chess" which WB Yeats used to play, and which functioned as a
sort of summation of the "Golden Dawn" system of magic.

There's a fuller list description at:

>>>  http://drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu/~jae/magister.html

and anyone who wishes to subscribe simply needs to ask one of the two list
owners...

Best wishes,


--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/index.html

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From 101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Apr 07 21:38:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Response or why do I read all this stuff?
From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 05:38:27 EDT

Hi,
I have been watching the e-mail discussion for some time and although I am not
ready yet to provide some messages I should relay some thoughts I had reading
all the stuff which spilled into my study.
1. I read the essays (Psyber 1 and 2) by Walter outlining the topics of
Psyber-L. I found his outline very interesting and that is why  I subscibed to
the List.
2. The present state of the discussion I feel a sense of meandering. Some
people want to study the "mechanics" of the psychological processes
determining the psyberspace (or is it cyberspace?) while others are busy
creating these processes with their reactions. I am more interested in the
analysis. From this point of view I appreciate the comments by Jurek, Walter
and Susan.
3. It was pointed out that spoken or written language is an important vehicle
for the transmission of our thoughts. Semantics is part of it. As a non-native
speaker (but with an exposure to several years of US-English) I sometimes look
up the meaning and use of words. With respect to "lurkers" - (1. To lie in
wait, as in ambush. 2. To move furtively; sneak. 3. To exist unobserved or
unsuspected; according to Oxford Dict.). - I must say that it is unfair to
mark those of us with this label who for the moment have chosen to read and
think before they write.
4. Sometimes I wonder what is the difference between an Internet-chat and a
get together of Hams (Radio Amateurs). The coordinates of space and time are
the same.
Werner

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From edbaud@SLVBBS.COM Sun Apr 07 23:02:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls.
From: Fred Bauder <edbaud@SLVBBS.COM>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 06:02:45 EST

Sounds like Laurel-Delores didn't get her hyrophoby shots.

Fred

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Mon Apr 08 01:37:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: To bend to and bounce
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:37:38 GMT

Robert ,

> Strange that Walter
> approaches this time and metaphor as fall/autumn. Walter, how do you
> understand the growth of community and dialogue here?

Wasn't a metaphor (as far as I know :-) -- it is fall here (in New
Zealand)  though we never use that word -- autumn.  For the list:
rebirth is uncannily fitting for what is happening on the list!
Spring.

The question of growth of community.  Is community a suitable
metaphor?  Perhaps, "family" goes too far and community is in that
direction IMO, it can lead to expectations that cant be fulfilled,
and go beyond our purpose.  We are here to do some specific
explorations -- Charles summed them up well I thought -- three
threads.  In that work we find closeness and friendship -- as
explorers do.

You have said you want a home in cyberspace and a community? -- I
think that can happen / be built / found / discovered, and a list like
this is part of it. Developing professional collaboration in
cyberspace, and building a network around that -- to quote from the
list description:

>>> The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which includes psychological professional services on the net such as one-to-one Personal Exploration and professionally facilitated email groups. The list is also a place for professional collaboration in the development of ethical depth work of this nature. <<<

Can community happen here?   Is that a part of this work?
Is it necessary?  What are the problems?  I should write a separate
paper on this -- or maybe I could put our older discussions into a
"Zine".

>         Self-therapy? Perhaps group therapy (we are a group here though we
> are *apparently* separated by time, distance and screens). This does indeed
> need to be considered, and this is a likely place in which to carry on that
> study (Walter?)

Therapy and community.  I have a sense of the work we do here as both
broad and focussed.  Very like supervision of psychotherapists.  The
focus is the welfare of the client -- but the work covers "what is on
top" and then leads to the supervisee doing more therapy or training
(in other contexts). This list is a jumping off place for much more --
to be a good spring (!) board it needs to be able to bend to and
bounce. and also be firmly attached to its focus -- in the list
description.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Mon Apr 08 01:44:39 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: To bend and to bounce
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 13:44:39 GMT

> This list is a jumping off place for much more --
> to be a good spring (!) board it needs to be able to bend to and
> bounce. and also be firmly attached to its focus -- in the list
> description.

Got a bit muddled . . .

to bend and to bounce

w











_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Mon Apr 08 02:42:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: various animals: cats, sheep, pigeons, . . .
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 10:42:20 -0400

Psyber folks,

Straitjackets:  individual and social experimentation, the nature of reality,
truth vs. illusion, "what's in a name", zen meditation, objectification of
people, demonization, the futility of communicating meaning, voices from the
past, action reaction, etc.

Uh, yeah . . .


What about the role of Internet in motivating people to action, coordinating
and implementing social movement?

Motivation.  Hmm . . . what is the root of cybernetics, cyberspace, cyber-?


And, a side question:  You may have heard a few stories how law enforcement
uses the Internet to entrap criminals.  When does a thought become a crime?
 What questions can psychology bring to bear on these deeds?

"Hey, pull my finger." <g>

John

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Mon Apr 08 02:55:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat On a hot tin truth. . .
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 14:55:23 GMT

Laurel,

> First a quick word to Walter.. Demon moi?

Wilbur said that, I thought with some accuracy.  Not that I think
_you_ are demon, but that the flow of our talk here was one sided in
some ways -- and that if you did not exist we would need to invent
you!  So he cast you in the role . . . any way that is how I see it .
. . perhaps he thought you do it better than him!  Handing you the
mantle as it were.


> First Lesson in demonology -
>
> The worse sort of Devil is the one that wears a fair face.

You cant trust anyone  can you!  We must search out the evil that
lurks (!) here.  [A well meaning but sarcastic aside.]

> Dolores
>
> Who is going to take a brief respite from cluttering up the list.

See you soon,

w













_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Mon Apr 08 03:12:30 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Don't call me a lurker!
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:12:30 -0400

Psyber folks,

Damn!  Truth is stranger than fiction.

>"The Lesson I learned in Cairo still applies. The only way to >deal with
bureaucrats is with stealth and sudden violence."
>       -- U.N. Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali, 1993


Kyra,

Hi, you sick, vicious, obsessed killer, you!  <g>

Laughter.  It's hard to evoke from only the words.  I occasionally smile when
I read a message, but personally I find that authentic laughter works better
on simultaneous mode rather than asynchronous.  It's a matter of timing.

Anger.  Now, that's much easier.  Right?

John

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Mon Apr 08 03:45:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls.
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 11:45:15 -0400

>
>Also, about mascara and lipstick, mentioned as ego-building devices:
>
>I don't care what you call 'em.  I think mascara and the wonderbra are a
>couple of humankind's great inventions.

Isn't that mankind?

I have to agree that mascara and the wonderbra are great inventions, but I
think that women should only be allowed to wear them on alternate rainy
Wednesday's..

Otherwise, women look too cute all the time, we males are constantly
overstimulated, and consequently we're categorized as nothing but animals
with no control...

;-P

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Mon Apr 08 04:09:18 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 17:09:18 +0100

Dear Fred,

I came out of retirement and re lurking, specifically in order to applaud
and appreciate another member of the list with the same  monumental spelling
and vocabulary skills. Now I really feel at home.

In fact I looked up hyrophoby and the closest I could come to hyro anything
was some obscure term for the the fear of hyrax any of various agile
herbivorous mammals of Africa and Sw Asia resembling rodents but with feet
like hooflike toes which I located jammed betwen hypstometry and Hyrcania.

As I live in Britain, rest assured no such shots are necessary.

Obviously my dictionary is at fault unless you mean Hydrophobia in which
case let me put your mind at rest again. We dont got it.

Let me point you in the direction of mad cow disease.. unfortunatly for
which there are no shots, just a manic desire to post to lists. Oh bad
news..its highly contagious.


Dolores

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Mon Apr 08 04:56:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat On a hot tin truth. . .
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 12:56:38 -0400

At 02:55 PM 4/7/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Laurel,
>
>> First a quick word to Walter.. Demon moi?
>
>Wilbur said that, I thought with some accuracy.  Not that I think
>_you_ are demon, but that the flow of our talk here was one sided in
>some ways -- and that if you did not exist we would need to invent
>you!  So he cast you in the role . . . any way that is how I see it .
>. . perhaps he thought you do it better than him!  Handing you the
>mantle as it were.
>

No, I make a great demon, but Laurel was having so much fun..   But as
Laurel (or what that Delores!) said, some of the best demon's are people
that you don't expect to be demon's.  How can I expect you to think of me
other than a demon if I don't point someone else out?

>
>> First Lesson in demonology -
>>
>> The worse sort of Devil is the one that wears a fair face.
>
>You cant trust anyone  can you!  We must search out the evil that
>lurks (!) here.  [A well meaning but sarcastic aside.]
>

You can trust people to follow their nature, and everyone has a little of
the devil them..

Well, if I search out the demon that lives here, then I'll spend time
looking for it, and probably find it, only to feel it.  While on the other
hand, I've found that if I don't search for it, I almost never find it, and
I almost never feel it!

I'll let someone else make a list of the demon's that a lurking behind the
facade's here!

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Mon Apr 08 05:13:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Lurkers, flamers and other daemons
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 09:13:21 -0800

Dr. Werner Schmidt writes:

> With respect to "lurkers" - (1. To lie in wait, as in ambush. 2. To
> move furtively; sneak. 3. To exist unobserved or unsuspected;
> according to Oxford Dict.). - I must say that it is unfair to mark
> those of us with this label who for the moment have chosen to
> read and think before they write.

While I would yield to none in my devotion to the OED, I have to say that
it's the wrong place to go if one wishes to understand the contemporary
cyberspace usage of the word "lurker".  Like such other cyberspace coinages
as "flaming", it has grown up with the territory -- and while it may have a
demeaning sense when used by those who demean, it is also capable of a
neutral or even affectionate reading...

Compare Walter's insightful / delightful remark:

> Cyberspace is full of pain -- flames -- are natural here -- there are
> varieties of flames -- as well as earth, air and water.  What would
> the psyche or a list that wishes to meet her be without all of these
> elements.  I hope we have the guts to -- more than tolerate them --
> welcome them.

Flaming, unlike lurking, can indeed be intrusive and inflammatory <grin>,
and there may be good reasons to dislike it, as one may dislike any other
forms of incivility  -- yet the word can also be self-applied without
dishonor, as in Laurel's description of one of her posts as "Flame bait..."
along with her comment "I can handle it."

For myself, I am partial to the coinages of the cyber realm, which --
thanks, I believe, to a witty and literate streak in many  hackers -- tend
to show a great deal more imagination than is usual in these times: I am
particularly fond of "mailer-daemons"...

Lurking, meaning "choosing the read and think before one writes", is an
honorable practice, and indeed is *recommended* by many list-owners to
those who are new to their respective lists...

Cordially,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/index.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Tue Apr 09 03:22:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls.
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 15:22:37 GMT

Fred

> Sounds like Laurel-Delores didn't get her hyrophoby shots.


Webster Definition for "hyro"

No definition for 'hyro'. Maybe you mean:

1.hero 2.hydro 3.hypo


You dont do you? C'mon give us a clue.

w






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Tue Apr 09 04:22:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: various animals: cats, sheep, pigeons, . . .
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 16:22:06 GMT

John,

> What about the role of Internet in motivating people to action, coordinating
> and implementing social movement?
>
> Motivation.  Hmm . . . what is the root of cybernetics, cyberspace, cyber-?

To do with steering -- control of information.  Steering . . .
direction  Psybernet . . . direction of the psyche . . . being led by
the psyche ?  Trying to control the psyche !  Ego . . .  ???

I am thinking of that phrase of Freud's -- do I have it right?
psychotherapy (or psychoanalysis) "terminable and interminable",
there is something about depth work that leads us around and around in
circles -- we have started a thousand threads and "finished"  none --
(Wilbur, this must be driving you mad!)  That is typical of lists,
especially open ones like this -- people sub and unsub, the questions
we raise have no answers, the themes recur .  In 93 we had a long
Anonymity thread and a long Ontology thread in this list (ie the study
of what is real).  Could we steer it away from this?  Should we?  No
way I think, lets watch in awe!

If we are building a community -- perhaps this list is the waterfall
-- or a water wheel in one part of the neighbourhood.  I'm doing it
now -- letting it flow!  John, I enjoy this letting it flow, I think
it is a respect for the unconscious and even the free association here
is "on topic".  But nothing gets done!  Is that what I hear you say?
Hmm . . . perhaps the water wheel can make electricity?

= Links =
Now here is a word  that the OED perhaps won't have caught up with:
link:  An URL embedded in a hypertext document, with a visible textual
label that when clicked allows one to surf to another site, or
document.

This ability to link is one of characteristics of the psyche (which on
one can define) -- Moreno -- "saw" the psyche as being outside the
body, in the world in the form of what he called "tele" projections of
feeling into space.  The Psychodrama and sociodrama are a forms that
make the psyche visible -- because they show us the links.   When I
wear my Moreno hat (perhaps I should just subscribe to the list as
Moreno)  we live in a world where there are strong threads connecting
each of us to one another -- some are strong and positive -- others
neutral or weak or negative.  These threads are also to such entities
as "god" & "pooh bear".

The exploration of the tele he called "sociometry" -- it is worth
looking in an old book published by  Beacon House (I have a 53
edition) called "Who Shall Survive"  by JL Moreno -- in the back there
is a map of 4350 lines (tele)  links in a between 435 people!  (A
study done in 1932. )

Seeing it this way "we" _are_ our links -- our psyche -- and it is not
in us, it is the tele we project and absorb.  The point I am making
(too cryptically) is that the web is like an upheaval in the cosmic
balance of  our psychic climate.

Robert mentioned community and home -- I guess we need that to survive
here!  I do, I have link overload, which also plays havoc with the
connections in the real world.  Do we just hunker down in Syberia?  Do
we build?  Do we find settlements?  Stay lost?

I think I am a builder.

enough for now,


Walter




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From mrosen@DIALNSA.EDU Tue Apr 09 14:39:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: a lurker speaks
From: "Marah Rosenberg~203-748-8835" <mrosen@DIALNSA.EDU>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 22:39:34 -0400

how theatrical this all is don't you think?

conflict is part of community building, it has to be.
we are not in utopia, and i'm not altogeather sure if that's a bad thing.

gosh if we were - would there be anything for us to talk about?

isn't part of human nature to try to make this chaotic messed up puzzle
we have of a world into a utopian state. ? the question is - which
version of utopia...

maybe i should read animal farm and brave new world again..

please, keep going everyone - we all (the talkative and not so) are
creating exactly what i hoped to find on this list.

a creation/evolution of community and a discussion of the steps we take
along the way.

-c1rcle

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Tue Apr 09 15:25:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:25:46 -0400

At 12:03 PM 4/9/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Wilbur,
>
>> You can trust people to follow their nature, and everyone has a little of
>> the devil them..
>
>Well put.

It took quite a few years to come to understand that!

>
>> I'll let someone else make a list of the demon's that a lurking behind the
>> facade's here!
>
>I hope someone does -- here is one definition of a demon:
>
>>>> From the Greek _daimon_, a personal familiar spirit or guardian angel,
like the Roman _genius_, roughly synonymous with "soul".  The diamon
organisational development a hero could undergo apotheosis, become a god,
and rise to heaven to dwell among the stars.  --- Barbara  G. Walker. <<<
>

Somehow, I wasn't thinking about that sort of demon.. but I guess that you
know that and your devil made you try to twist the definition..!

>
>> ---------------------------------------
>> Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
>> ---------------------------------------
>
>
>I returned to your post really to ask you to say more about this!

I believe that the current PC has enough power to do this, I just need to
write a hell of a piece of software.  Of course, this sort of undertaking is
more than one man can accomplish, so I'm at the conceptualization stage of a
new business.. but I truly believe that it's only a matter of tiem until we
get computers to work in a way that is more "human".

>Now here is the future for us, what sort of impact will that have on our
>psyche!
>

I'm not sure, I can argue both for and against, positive and negative
effect.  I hope that there will be a lot of changes in the world, and I hope
that they will be positive ones, but I can't say how this technology will
actually change the world..  I would venture a guess that this sort of
technology will have profound localized effects, but overall, will have
little impact on humanity at large.  After all, the technology will just be
a better mirror of humanity, a better "widget" which is a trend that has
been going on for centuries.

I can imagine that this will help make people more "human" in their
approach, and may help us understand what are the unique parts of being
human, but given the current socio-political climates, I can't tell what the
overall effect will be.  On the other hand, can't that be said about all
forms of technology?  The thrust of any technology is to provide some sort
of public benefit eventually.  But along the way, there are always
disenfranchised people, and abuses of technologies as the culture
encompasses any new technology.

I think that this new interface will introduce technology to a much larger
part of everyday life, and lessen the entrance requirements to be able to
take advantage of the technology.  On the other hand, this will commoditize
certain types of life and probably segment the population more as time goes
on.  Those people without technology skills will be more locked out of
paying jobs because the computer will be able to do more and more of the
jobs that are considered "unskilled".  But with the computer doing more and
more of the routine tasks, their may be in turn a reason to create a leisure
class.

In new this technology may come to change the entire relationship that we
have with each other, perhaps making it easier for people to look each other
in the eye, since we'll be accustomed to dealing with things on a face to
face basis, and being looking directly in the eye.

But the computer will not have the same human motivations, (at least not
until we have a better idea of what being human is all about) but will be
further removing the requirement for human handling of tasks which are
routine and mundane.  Sort of an acceleration of the existing trends,
perhaps which will free mankind to a life of leisure, or perhaps enslave
mankind to a life of leisure.  But once again, aren't these trends all
trends that already exist and have existed for centuries?  I don't believe
that this technology will cure world hunger, but it might help communcation
a bit, which in turn might be the route to a solution to the problems of the
world.

But I don't believe that the nature of being human will change.  (more than
slightly)  The books that I read from the thinkers of the 16th and 17th
century still apply to modern technological life.  We haven't come that far
in the last 400 years.

As to what effect will it have on our psyche, I can't tell you what effect
it will have on other people's psyche, but the intent from my perspective is
to make technology (and therefore life) more human.  There are a lot of
discussions about how technology has removed the face to face aspect of life
from our day to day life.  If people believe that the face is real, does
that mean that they are now dealing with life on a face to face basis?  Or
is it some sort of video game competing for our attention against the people
around us, and therefore reducing the level of face to face interaction?
When I figure out how to get each individuals face in the computer, and you
are speaking to a projection of my face, are we speaking "face to face"?

When the computer carries enough of my thoughts, beliefs, mental processing,
so that it can emulate almost all of me, are you having face to face meeting
with me or a computer?  Are we having a face to face meeting now?  What
makes my flesh and bone face anything other than a piece of sophisticated
software that has certain performance parameters?  What's to say that my
face isn't entirely an automation from the experiences and cultural
influences of my life, running on a body which provide a background of habit
and basic emotional responses.  Who's to say that this entire message wasn't
created by a the technology of my humanity and only a few words here and
there are actually of my own choosing?

I believe that the inside and the outside aren't every far apart.  I believe
that the mind is interwoven into the fabric of our lifes, both internal and
external.  I believe that the psyche exists in an amoung our world, and not
as something that resides only in by cerebrial cortext.

So you completely define Psyche, and I'll define what changes I believe may
happen to it.  Are we the "Ghost in the machine", are we the machine, or are
we entirely spirit?  If I'm successful in putting my face on the computer,
and can put enough intelligence into it so that people can't discern whether
it's alive or not, is that my child, will it live on after I'm dead?  Will
my Psyche be contained in the machine?  Isn't it already in this message?

Or am I just a computer with a sophisticated program designed to believe
that I'm alive?  Isn't conciousness just a dream anyway?

Hmmm.. this could go on forever.. I'm going to go write some software.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Tue Apr 09 15:31:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Sons (and daughters) of the Highest (was Various animals)
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:31:58 -0400

Walter,

It didn't seem right to keep the title as it is.  We have to be somewhere
between the angels and the animals, or both.  Please pardon my dramatic title
heading.

>> Motivation.  Hmm . . . what is the root of cybernetics, >>cyberspace,
cyber-?

>To do with steering -- control of information.  Steering . . .
>direction  Psybernet . . . direction of the psyche . . . being led >by the
psyche ?  Trying to control the psyche !  Ego . . .  ???

The psyche is out there, in the dream of the dreamer, the imagination of the
mover.

What is the psyche?  This is a Greek word?  A Greek concept?  Is psyche
nearly synonymous with collective unconscious?  With Platonic realm?

Can someone out there answer these questions?  I realise fully we may be
venturing into Terra Incognita.  "Here there be dragons."  Is this too far
astray from our prime objectives?

Not long ago, I read a newspaper article in the Seattle Sunday paper about
some high executive that works for Microsoft here in Redmond, Washington.
 This executive (don't recall his name) has a graduate degree in physics.
 Anyway, he said that high school physics covers up to Newtonian physics.
 College physics is theory of relativity, and graduate-level physics covers
the early stages of quantum theory.  There is only a 'select priesthood' (my
emphasis) that are at the cutting edge of physics.

Now, we don't need physics to answer these questions, do we?  What are
thought processes?  Do we channel something from a realm of thought?  What
happens when we think?  Stephen, I believe, mentioned something earlier about
the collapse of probabilities.  With respect to this, I read a book several
years ago by Oxford cosmologist, John Barrow; the title was 'The World Within
the World'.  He called the mind an quantum computer.

>circles -- we have started a thousand threads and "finished"
>none --

Yes . . .  This is part of the process, right?  I keep getting caught up in
the moment and forget the previous present.  A weakness for the moment.

All of the topics brought up are interesting in their own right, the topics I
jokingly called straitjackets.  Walter, you said Psybernet functions as a
jumping-off point to more focussed work.  Would this solve some of this
dilemma?

>................................................................the
questions
>we raise have no answers, the themes recur .

The questions cannot be answered adequately at this time?  Perhaps, we should
try applying the best answer for the time being?  The best answer(s) will
withstand the test of time?

Or, are we asking questions whose nature we cannot fathom?  Maybe we are
dealing with something along the lines of the Heisenberg Uncertainty
Principle, ie, when we attempt to determine the 'true' nature of something,
we change it in the process.  So, we find ourselves back at square one again.
 Are these questions or talk surrounding them, some of that bullshit Laurel
is trying to point out?

>If we are building a community -- perhaps this list is the >waterfall-- or a
water wheel in one part of the >neighbourhood.  I'm doing it now -- letting
it flow!  John, I >enjoy this letting it flow, I think it is a respect for
the >unconscious and even the free >association here is "on topic".

I thank you for your tolerance, Walter.  Since I've heard no cries of outrage
from others, I'll take that as mute acceptance.  Where do you draw the line?
 Is it based on each individual's personal judgment?  If it is, then this
truly is a community of responsible individuals.  A cyberspace utopia?  Is
that too bold?  Of course, utopias have to be built on top of something.

I understand everybody wants something from this space.  There is a reason
for being here.  For instance, Laurel thinks this is a place to be heard, to
get attention, to influence others.  Wilber wants to utilize this space in
one aspect to answer research questions.  Charles and Stephen have used this
space to explore the psyche.  If you don't have a reason, then surely someone
will have to create one for you.

>Hmm . . . perhaps the water wheel can make electricity?

Talking about free association, this reminds me of the creativity sessions
termed, 'brain-storming'.  No judgment is applied beforehand, so as not to
limit our possibilities.  (Right, I know no one speaks like this.)

>.............................-- Moreno -- "saw" the psyche as being outside
>the body, in the world in the form of what he called "tele"
>projections of feeling into space.

Yes, I have speculated about similar questions.  Our skin forms the boundary
between our body and the surrounding environment.  When the wind blows on our
skin then we feel sensation.  The sensation may provoke a feeling.  Our
nervous system interacts with the environment.  Think about the influence of
weather on our demeanor.  Think also about the 'power' of a place to
influence your inner self, as if the scenery touches our archaic self.  Is
this New Age mumbo jumbo or is there really a physiological response?

>When I wear my Moreno hat (perhaps I should just subscribe >to the list as
Moreno)  we live in a world where there are >strong threads connecting each
of us to one another -- some >are strong and positive -- others neutral or
weak or negative.  >These threads are also to such entities as "god" & "pooh
bear".

Kurt Vonnegut expressed similar ideas in his books, 'Cat's Cradle' and
'Slaughterhouse Five' (or was it Nine? I threw these books away because they
seems to become trite.).  In Vonnegut's conception of these connections,
there is a special reason for their existence.  Why do you have the friends
you have?

I can see the avenue has opened.  I would like to know more about this Moreno
character.  I find it fascinating hearing about the visionaries of the turn
of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th.

> . . . a map of 4350 lines (tele)  links in a between 435 people!

This seems simple enough, but a picture would be wonderful here!

>The point I am making (too cryptically) is that the web is like >an upheaval
in the cosmic balance of  our psychic climate.

I'm not quite understanding.  You are talking about some kind of polarization
in a psychic dimension or like a shift in conceptual gravity?  I can't find
the right words.  Have to use scientific terminology that describes physical
phenomena or what affects physical phenomena.

The word, synergetic, comes to my mind.  This would describe an effect where
forces acting in unison are greater than just their sum total.  Catalyst also
comes to my mind.

>I think I am a builder.

A sanctuary, a coffee house, a beer garden minus the beer, . . .
The phrases global village and town meeting also come to mind.  But, I
believe, 'Happening' describes it more fully as I see it.

Well, my mind's picked.

Respectfully,

John

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Tue Apr 09 15:44:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:44:31 -0400

Are we creating the reality(ies) as we proceed?

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Tue Apr 09 15:54:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 23:54:10 -0400

At 11:44 PM 4/8/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Are we creating the reality(ies) as we proceed?
>

Maybe you are, I don't have one!

Or I should have one?  Or I have only one?  I thought I had one, but it got
lost?

Or, what we used to throw around in High School, "Reality, what a concept!"

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From hoon@APK.NET Tue Apr 09 16:29:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) of the Highest (was Various animals)
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 00:29:09 -0400

pc parsing...

pardon
cybernetics
psyche
control
psyche?
collective
prime
covers
physics
covers
priesthood
cutting
processes
channel
probabilities
circles
process
caught
previous
cannot cannot
process
community
personal
cyberspace
place
create
possibilities
called
projections
connecting
positive
conception connections
picture
cosmic
polarization
conceptual
phenomena
Catalyst
phrases
come
picked

***

Stephen

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Tue Apr 09 17:18:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:18:22 -0400

Wilber,

You wouldn't happen to be Japanese, would you?  Because I saw on the news
that a Japanese had already put a face on technology, a Japanese face.
 Apparently, this researcher is using a computer interface to mimic mood and
emotion on a computer-animated visage.  Perhaps, we'll see this technology
evolve, in the near future, into our first computer-mediated language
translator.

John

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Tue Apr 09 17:46:18 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 01:46:18 -0400

At 01:18 AM 4/9/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Wilber,
>
>You wouldn't happen to be Japanese, would you?  Because I saw on the news
>that a Japanese had already put a face on technology, a Japanese face.

That was at Tokyo University I believe.  Are you talking about the AP bit
that was on CNN a couple of weeks ago?

> Apparently, this researcher is using a computer interface to mimic mood and
>emotion on a computer-animated visage.

There are several people doing just this sort of thing..  If there is
interest I can provide links to Web sites..

>Perhaps, we'll see this technology evolve, in the near future, into our
first >computer-mediated language translator.

I think that Language translation is definately going to be a target market,
but not the primary one for quite a while.

I think that there are significant differences between the Japanense usage
of language and the American usage of language.  I've done Judo since I was
seven and over the years the difference between the Japanese people that
I've met and the American's that I've met has lead me to believe that the
Japanese have a more "Iconic" or singular connection to language.  Japanese
as a language is more object oriented, and I would imagine, as a result,
their thinking would be more object oriented.  (ie, symbolic).  I would
imagine that the face will solve a lot of language issues more directly
there than here.  Certainly, Sony and a couple of other Japanese companies
are further along with this technology than we are here in the US.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Tue Apr 09 22:52:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . .
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:52:13 +0200

John ==> Dolores/Laurel on Sat, 6 Apr 1996 10:20:26 -0500:
>>>
Language is a lie and actions speak louder than words.  Show me an authentic
person and you'll see a silent one.  But then, I don't always choose truth
over beauty.
<<<
So you're using lies to comm with us? Glad to see traces of your typing *ac-
tions*, since they speak louder, indeed, than the words they form; they shout:
"I'M TYPING, THEREFORE I AM".
Mind to show us a really *silent* person via pure e-mail??
Mila

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed Apr 10 00:03:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 12:03:12 GMT

Wilbur,

> You can trust people to follow their nature, and everyone has a little of
> the devil them..

Well put.

> I'll let someone else make a list of the demon's that a lurking behind the
> facade's here!

I hope someone does -- here is one definition of a demon:

>>> From the Greek _daimon_, a personal familiar spirit or guardian angel, like the Roman _genius_, roughly synonymous with "soul".  The diamon organisational development a hero could undergo apotheosis, become a god, and rise to heaven to dwell among the stars.  --- Barbara  G. Walker. <<<


> ---------------------------------------
> Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
> ---------------------------------------


I returned to your post really to ask you to say more about this!  Now
here is the future for us, what sort of impact will that have on our
psyche!


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed Apr 10 04:42:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:42:26 GMT

Wilbur,

> >> You can trust people to follow their nature, and everyone has a little of
> >> the devil them..
> >
> >Well put.
>
> It took quite a few years to come to understand that!

Me too, and I still have difficulty with utter evil!

> >>>> From the Greek _daimon_, a personal familiar spirit or guardian angel,
> like the Roman _genius_, roughly synonymous with "soul".  The diamon
> organisational development a hero could undergo apotheosis, become a god,
> and rise to heaven to dwell among the stars.  --- Barbara  G. Walker. <<<

> Somehow, I wasn't thinking about that sort of demon.. but I guess that you
> know that and your devil made you try to twist the definition..!

The thing is that it is hard to tell these demons apart and we may
need them all  . . . a lesson for list owners?

> >> ---------------------------------------
> >> Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
> >> ---------------------------------------


I enjoyed your musings about the impact of technology.  Ah -- the face
as interface Ha!  And what a powerful one it is.  One of the things I
like to say -- which is getting a bit old hat perhaps is that email
and links etc have such psychological impact because they are
asynchronous and remove the face, letting us see instantly beyond it.


As you put it back on the screen it perhaps makes the machine more
_human_ but a little further away from all that is _more_ than human.
I think that is a pretty radical thought!  What do you think?

Defining the psyche is a futile task -- but I can tell you what I
think it is and that is the nature of the beast.  My message recently
on Moreno probably did a bit of that.

Hmm . . .

On my WWW pages I have a page for Moreno, McLuhan and Jung.  I have
them there to mark out the branch of the tree that Psybernet is
located on.  Words mean something within the context of a school of
thought -- but I hope that by using those three as marking points we
can avoid being too narrow and at the same time attract people who can
enjoy speaking to each other.

> actually change the world..  I would venture a guess that this sort of
> technology will have profound localized effects, but overall, will have
> little impact on humanity at large.  After all, the technology will just be
> a better mirror of humanity, a better "widget" which is a trend that has
> been going on for centuries.

Trends lead to major leaps -- heat water up enough and it turns to
steam.  That is what we are into I think with all this.

Got to go  . . .

look forward to more on all this.



Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed Apr 10 05:48:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:48:24 GMT

>  Apparently, this researcher is using a computer interface to mimic mood and
> emotion on a computer-animated visage.

You mean it searches out the mood of the computer and feeds that back
-- like:  i am an a good mood because i have a brand new CD-ROM!

That is scary!


w

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed Apr 10 06:43:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: == On Psyber-L -- a Summary ==
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 18:43:31 GMT

== On Psyber-L -- a Summary ==
Over the last couple of weeks there has been lively discussion as
people get to know each other -- make links -- settle in.  This is a
summary of themes that are on the boil here at the moment.  My summary
is too prosaic to do the creativity  justice . . .  This is my attempt
at making it easier perhaps for those not reading it all, to ease them
in?   I often add something like this to the list description on the
web, which I update -- and which I hope will add some cohesiveness to
the list . . . let us know if it helps (or not) -- that way we can
learn about facilitation.

In no particular order:

*  Varieties of metaphor of where we are -- a theatre -- on a hot tin
truth -- whispering in corners behind palms.

*  Reality -- the nature of it.  What is authentic and what is
bullshit, posturing.

*  Trust -- related to the above but on a more personal level.
Authenticity -- is it possible here?  Who is real?

*  The nature of the psyche.  Includes the various archetypes -- ego
-- shadow etc.  demons.

*  The value of lurking -- the nature of list behaviour --

*  Clarifying and fine tuning the "prime directive" of the list.

*  Dialogue -- the nature of it on lists -- and in _this_ list.

*  The impact of technology (social - psychological) --

*  On line Leadership.  The dynamics of flaming -- lurking --
varieties of facilitation.  Power.  Elitism.

*  Community and building in cyberspace. Finding a home.

*  Netsex -- and love on the net -- relationships here.

This does not cover it all -- what else?


Walter,
Surprising myself as I bring this linearity to our wonderful flux!







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From LUV2KWLT@AOL.COM Wed Apr 10 06:59:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls.
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <LUV2KWLT@AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 14:59:22 -0400

Wilbur:
>
>I have to agree that mascara and the wonderbra are great inventions, but I
>think that women should only be allowed to wear them on alternate rainy
>Wednesday's..

 wet t-shirts  ??

>
>Otherwise, women look too cute all the time, we males are constantly
>overstimulated, and consequently we're categorized as nothing but animals
>with no control...

duh....I do believe that IS the point, dear.

Luv
on a snowy Tuesday

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 10 07:14:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat amongst the cyberpigeons
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:16 -0600

Laurel/Dolores,

        In your response to Susan you state:

L/D>Susan, you missed the point entirely. Perhaps I should have been
L/D>clearer, though some people seemed to have understood. Maybe I was
L/D>talking too plainly. Language is a beautiful thing. Language is life,
L/D>it is the embodiement of emotion, it is the expression of the inner
L/D>self. When I write I am myself. My true self, because I put part of me
L/D>on the page, exposed, laid bare for all to see.

        These words speak of a deep and profound concern for authentic
dialogue.  As Jurek mentioned in his post about *inner voices*, the inner
self is in constant dialogue hoping to be reborn in communion
(communication).  I wonder how it comes to be that you find the courage to
engage in authentic soul work while online, for such is the engagement in
authentic dialogue (Walter has provided reference to this in some measure
through his reference to Thomas Moore's _Care of the Soul_)?

L/D>Now nowhere in Walters dream, (Walters dream for this list is what
L/D>attracted me here in the first place)  did it say one had to be a
L/D>psychiatrist, psychotherapist or anything else prefixed with psych.
L/D>Having sat on the list for a couple of weeks it occured to me, that
L/D>people weren't showing themselves as much as showing their academic
L/D>prowess. Immensely irritating because I wasn't able to connect to half
L/D>of the things they were saying. They were using the language of the
L/D>psych academic. One I dont know.

        Your words are important to all of us.  Not only must we care for
the words we speak so that they are authentic (even if it is to ask for the
date of a conference), we need to allow our words to connect rather than
divide.  Simple words simply stated have more power than a thesis, a
dissertation. Perhaps, they are also more honest.

L/D>Secondly, it is the true self that shines in text, the difference
L/D>between an academic drawing of swords and a debate between two souls.
L/D>That's when we will all come to know each other, when we drop the
L/D>bullshit and speak as we would.

        You'll find no disagreement here.  What you *hear* is what you get.
It's a fertile field of investigation together, the nature of our dialogue
while online.  We definitely can't understand what's happening using the
traditional *text* analysis as this medium gives the text on the screen an
oral nature.

Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 10 07:14:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:28 -0600

Jurek and fellow Psyberians,

        Jurek, you mention our inner voice, a host of inner voices, and
inner dialogue as a similie for poetry.

>I would like to put forward the metaphor of our INNER DIALOGUE with INNER
>VOICES. Writing poetry to one self - is it not as hearing the voice in one
self? Now, why constrain it to poetry? Are we not all full of the voices all
the time? Voices of our parents, spouses, children, co-workers, leaders....
I had a lot conversation with You Walter and Robert before putting MY words
on computers keyboard. When we are cleared in our minds then we let hear OUR
voice externally.

        This is a feature about online dialogue that I like best, the
ability to pause and carefully construct our messages to each other (based
on that inner dialogue you expressed so well) so that our voices speak to
more accurately reflect our deeper thoughts.

>Maybe the lurkers are more to inner dialog that to outer dialog?

        Their existence and our knowledge of their presence almosts forces
us to be more authentic.  Glib and false messages will result in being
flamed or worse, ignored.

Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 10 07:14:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Varieties of CyberPsych
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:38 -0600

Walter et al,

        It's a little late (time has passed since your post containing the
following words) but I want to reply to you anyways.

>Cyberspace is full of pain -- flames -- are natural here -- there are
>varieties of flames -- as well as earth, air and water.  What would
>the psyche or a list that wishes to meet her be without all of these
>elements.  I hope we have the guts to -- more than tolerate them --
>welcome them.

        In the post I had written prior to yours, I spoke of tolerance. Here
you speak of going beyond that, to an embracing of them.  Words with import,
words that make me pause and then agree.  I have followed the posts since my
last message.  Several posts by XMeff@AOL.COM (John) grated.  I felt the
desire to rebut his remarks and to delete posts with his signature, but I
didn't.  Taking a time out to question my own reaction to his words spoke
about me and not him.  For that, I give thanks that he has become a vocal
member of the Psyberian community.  As you said "welcome them".

>Yes -- and what a thing it is then that you and Laurel speak of the
>possibility of being kicked off!  That came as a surprise -- It feels
>as if neither of you are seriously thinking this is an option.  And it
>isn't.

        Exactly!  Since the possibility of "being kicked off" is not a
likely event, the result is that we *belong* here.  That is the point I had
hoped to make.  A Psyberian community is not so easily legislated nor
defined since we ourselves are not so easily defined in this medium.

        The psychology of listservs, the nature of the listserv community,
the beings who live there ... what a wonderful way to detour on the journey
of self-discovery!

Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 10 07:15:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Just a thought in passing
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:15:01 -0600

Hello to all,

        Sorry for the silence on my part.  It's been a busy time since my
last post and responses.  Part of the time has been spent reading.  I've
been bouncing back and forth from Pirsig's classic, _Zen and the Art of
Motorcycle Maintenance_, and his more recent (1991) _Lila_.  Don't ask for a
rationale reason for bouncing between the two books.  The best I can give is
that it feels good as I sense the connections.  Anyways, I wanted to share
an idea from his _Zen ..._.

        Pirsig dwells on the notion of reason / rationality.  Reason
apparently is based on logic and the scientific method, tools which have
helped us to understand (in part) the world in order to meet the real needs
of food, shelter, clothing, and warmth.  However, when these needs have been
met, the same reason/rationality is inadequate for our new needs -
spiritual, emotional, and aesthetic - needs of the soul.

        I wonder at what we are trying to do here? Are we trying to
understand our *reality* in this dimension using the logic of a f2f world?
Are we measuring this *reality* with a fifteenth (or nineteenth) century
mindframe? Perhaps our attempts to *define* this communicative adventure are
inappropriate and we should be allowing ourselves an experiential
understanding until a new vocabulary arises. How can we define with words
that have risen out of a different dimension, a different reality?

Just a thought or two in passing,

Cyberie

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From forsber@BC.EDU Wed Apr 10 07:44:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Interfaces and Words
From: klary <forsber@BC.EDU>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 15:44:52 EDT

Walter said...

> I enjoyed your musings about the impact of technology.  Ah -- the face
> as interface Ha!  And what a powerful one it is.  One of the things I
> like to say -- which is getting a bit old hat perhaps is that email
> and links etc have such psychological impact because they are
> asynchronous and remove the face, letting us see instantly beyond it.

I believe that one of the way we use visual images/appearances is as a
labelling or categorizing technique...perhaps to filter out from amidst
all the "things" in the universe which ones might appeal to us...whether
they are objects, people, or whatever...most of us seem to have some
inclination towards gravitating towards or away from certain patterns
or images...in people we *generally* do this as well. racist? than
ignore words and thoughts from people who don't have skin color <a>,
sexist? ignore thoughts from people of gender <b>? classist? ignore
people who do <c> for a living? intellectual elitist? ignore anything
said by people without <d> credentials...Labels used in the large
and the small I believe limit us, limit our thinking, stop us from
openly evaluating input...words, images, sounds, people...as soon as
we can attach a label we no longer feel the need to evaluate - we
have a mental box to put the thing into...i like to call labels
"mind condoms"...because they "protect" us from getting "infected"
by any different thoughts or ideas... this is precisely why i
believe that non Face-to-Face communication allows us to be more
"ourselves" and to communicate with people whom in face-to-face
communication we might not have...it is much more difficult to label
a thing or a person or an idea when we have no convenient image
to attach a label to, it takes longer for us to evaluate
the words and form an image of the person when we have to create
it...and when we take the time to form the image we hear things
we might not have heard before...because we have to create the
image from scratch...from the person him/herself, instead of from our
own portable scrapbook of stereotypes and mugshots...like the
police sketch artist drawing from scratch from verbal descriptions
vs. having the victim pick a set of eyes, and a nose, and a mouth
and a hair style and a head shape from a preset list of "standard"
bodyparts...we have the opportunity to create a more accurate
"image" of the person on the other end of the screen.

k.lary

ps - as way of intro, i am a software developer with a background
     in user interface design and a strong interest in the ways
     that using computers alters the way we live/work/play - with
     computers themselves, and with each other and the world
     around us.

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Apr 10 08:13:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Pictures of reality
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:13:44 EDT

Wilbur,
How can You know what pictures create external world in the brains of other
people?
What a chance it will be that those pictures for all people are the same? If
they are different, which one depict "the right reality"? If they are the same,
whay do we act differently?
Jurek

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Apr 10 08:13:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Putting..into context
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:13:46 EDT

Walter and Psyberians

>Walter
> Words mean something within the context of a school of thought .

And now  change of  context.

Words mean something only within the context.

Conversation without clarity about context is  meaningless and without meaning.

If context is clear and words non clear communication is possible.
If words are clear but context not there will be no communication.

Jurek

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Wed Apr 10 08:30:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Pictures of reality
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 16:30:24 -0400

At 04:13 PM 4/9/96 EDT, you wrote:
>Wilbur,
>How can You know what pictures create external world in the brains of other
>people?

I'm not sure that I got that thru the grammer.. but I'll try to respond to
what I believe you are saying.

I don't know what peoples perception of the external world will be through
pictures..  There are people in the groups of people in the world that can't
recognize 3d perspective on a piece of paper.  I don't remember the tribe of
native peoples that the test was done on, but there was a group of people
that were shown picutures of the surrounding landscape and they were not
able to recognize the places from the pictures.  Seeing things in pictures
is a learned response, and personal by nature.  Or, once again, "Reality,
what a concept!"

>What a chance it will be that those pictures for all people are the same?

Then there's the story of the "Tower of Babel"..

>If they are different, which one depicts "the right reality"?

I can't define what is right for the next person, but I'm not attempting to
create the "right" interface, just one that a vast majority of humanity can
interface with.

>If they are the same, whay do we act differently?

But we are the same and different at the same time.  I don't know what
languages the face will know, and I'm sure that it will go beyond my
comprehension at some point.  I'm working to create a technology and a
culture (ie. business) that will bring this technology to the world.  I'd be
satisfied with a "empty face" that can understand what people have to say
and respond in a scripted way in a very limited context.  Let the next
bright kid figure out how to make it "alive".  (but I do have some ideas!)

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Apr 10 09:03:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a thought in passing
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 17:03:11 EDT

Robert and Psyberians

>Are we measuring this *reality* with a fifteenth (or nineteenth) century
>mindframe? Perhaps our attempts to *define* this communicative adventure are
>inappropriate and we should be allowing ourselves an experiential
>understanding until a new vocabulary arises.

What about a few suggestions:

>From            To

Define          Investigate
Uni-verse               Multi-verse

Explanation     Many descriptions
Opinion         One form of life
Idea            Doing

Feelings                Effects in relationships

Best regards
Jurek

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Wed Apr 10 10:53:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Here I go again..
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:53:32 +0100

Dear all that can be bothered..

Following the initial post in which I introduced myself to you and was
proclaimed the Devil incarnate, amongst other things, (I believe rabid
amazonian sloth) was one of them, several things have occoured.
These have all been off list, because the lurkers of which I was one, lurk
not silently but like shadow. They follow our movements precisely, they lurk
at our heels and they contribute by seemingly not being there, yet they they
are with us all the time its just you dont often get to see them until
certain conditions prevail.

Anyway, my post seemed to shed enough light to make certain shadowy lurkers
slightly more substantial and I recieved mucho email - it was to these
people that I gave a detailed reason as to what had motivated me to send the
post in the first place.
(Details available on request. Send S.A.E and a cheque for $30 made payable
to the Satanic church of the cosmic banana)

What I learnt from all this, and believe me I learnt a lot, is that I dont
have to feel stupid because I dont understand the technical jargon being
bandied about. I rejoice in my lack of education these days...actually since
I joined this list. This list taught me alot in a very short time. I have
benefited because because I think Education teaches you a certain way of
thinking, a way that is to all intents and purposes not natural. It stifles
the imagination, makes you pull things to bits and analyse them, until you
cant write a poem without thinking of the structure or how clever or
impressive the word is your about to insert. I proudly admit to not knowing
the meanings of half the words that I scratch into prose when I write, all I
know is the nature of them, not the exact meaning, and as for being able to
spell them..well theres always spell check. (except in email which is a pain)

And  what nearly all the lurkers said to me.. was that they found the posts
dry, colourless and without imagination, academic posturing. What I meant
when I said by words for words sake. A couple said they were shy of
expressing an opinion, when they couldnt use words of more than 9
syllables..that because they couldnt write  a la mode academic and they were
scared of being ridiculed because they couldnt dress their words up in the
same educated language, yet found what was being discussed interesting if
not a little dry. They wanted to contribute..just didnt they could.

So I put my head on the chopping block again..lurkers post and be damned..
or admired, or flamed, accademics try to be more understandable...more
human, less educated in some respects, because there are some of us out here
that dont have degrees. It doesnt make us less intelligent, we still walk
the walk though we dont talk the talk. Actually some of us walk it a little
better in some areas because we dont have the weight of letters dragging
behind us.

To sum up what I have come to understand in all this.. a comment by one of
the lurkers.. who really should post and I wish they would, because if what
they wrote to me is anything to go by  their
erudite/imaginative/incisive/humourous observations are well worth looking
at (How do you spell sycophantic?)

"I've become firmly convinced that formal education is to get you from point
A to point B (i.e. it gets you the degree to follow your career goals) but
true learning and knowledge is a solitary journey, done on the side lines of
"real" education."

And Im going to pose a question too.. What does the net do for the
imagination.?. a commodity little utilised by some and greatly undervalued
by others. Yet very important here. (If I mention netsex again you'll start
thinking I am obsessed with it) I believe the net teaches us to use it
differently..see it a different way. This is a place  ich with pictures, the
pictures here exist in our heads, every post is another picture in the
psybernet gallery.. but unlike other text mediums this one is interactive..
and I dont think that occours any where else in quite the same way.

Dolores

P.S (private message follows)

Thank you, for finally convincing me that what I have is more important than
what I lack. There is no such thing as coincidence.

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Wed Apr 10 12:20:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Here I go again..
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 20:20:08 -0400

At 11:53 PM 4/9/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear all that can be bothered..
>

OK, I'll let you bother me!

>Following the initial post in which I introduced myself to you and was
>proclaimed the Devil incarnate,

Hey, that was just a nomination!

amongst other things, (I believe rabid
>amazonian sloth) was one of them, several things have occoured.
>These have all been off list, because the lurkers of which I was one, lurk
>not silently but like shadow. They follow our movements precisely, they lurk
>at our heels and they contribute by seemingly not being there, yet they they
>are with us all the time its just you dont often get to see them until
>certain conditions prevail.
>

Yeah, don't you just HATE that?  ;-)

>Anyway, my post seemed to shed enough light to make certain shadowy lurkers
>slightly more substantial and I recieved mucho email - it was to these
>people that I gave a detailed reason as to what had motivated me to send the
>post in the first place.
>(Details available on request. Send S.A.E and a cheque for $30 made payable
>to the Satanic church of the cosmic banana)
>

Is that Canadian or US?

>What I learnt from all this, and believe me I learnt a lot, is that I dont
>have to feel stupid because I dont understand the technical jargon being
>bandied about.

Hey, I'm a bithead, you're supposed to bow down when you don't understand
the lingo!

>I rejoice in my lack of education these days...

I'm not educated, just smart!

>actually since I joined this list. This list taught me alot in a very short
time. I have
>benefited because because I think Education teaches you a certain way of
>thinking, a way that is to all intents and purposes not natural. It stifles
>the imagination, makes you pull things to bits and analyse them, until you
>cant write a poem without thinking of the structure or how clever or
>impressive the word is your about to insert.

I agree.  I quit college in the second year because I wasn't learning
anything.  In my freshman year I was taking (actually skipping and getting
A's) graduate Math courses..  Yet the college wouldn't even let me get an
Associate degree in Math, they claimed that I couldn't go back and do the
courses that I had skipped, and they didn't have enough credits in the rest
of the Math department for me to even get a AA degree.

>I proudly admit to not knowing the meanings of half the words that I
scratch into prose when I write, all I
>know is the nature of them,

Hmm.. perhaps subconsiously you do know the meaning.  You haven't picked any
words that I would say don't fit, or perhaps you are writing like an
"American" idomatically?  (private joke, sorry!)

>not the exact meaning, and as for being able to spell them..well theres
always spell check.
>(except in email which is a pain)

I can't remember all of the time that I wasted on spelling tests...

>
>And  what nearly all the lurkers said to me.. was that they found the posts
>dry, colourless and without imagination, academic posturing. What I meant
>when I said by words for words sake. A couple said they were shy of
>expressing an opinion, when they couldnt use words of more than 9
>syllables..that because they couldnt write  a la mode academic and they were
>scared of being ridiculed because they couldnt dress their words up in the
>same educated language, yet found what was being discussed interesting if
>not a little dry. They wanted to contribute..just didnt they could.
>
>So I put my head on the chopping block again..lurkers post and be damned..
>or admired, or flamed, accademics try to be more understandable...more
>human, less educated in some respects, because there are some of us out here
>that dont have degrees. It doesnt make us less intelligent, we still walk
>the walk though we dont talk the talk. Actually some of us walk it a little
>better in some areas because we dont have the weight of letters dragging
>behind us.

Cute..

>
>To sum up what I have come to understand in all this.. a comment by one of
>the lurkers.. who really should post and I wish they would, because if what
>they wrote to me is anything to go by  their
>erudite/imaginative/incisive/humourous observations are well worth looking
>at (How do you spell sycophantic?)
>
>"I've become firmly convinced that formal education is to get you from point
>A to point B (i.e. it gets you the degree to follow your career goals) but
>true learning and knowledge is a solitary journey, done on the side lines of
>"real" education."
>

When I asked my mother what to do about the boring, lousy teachers that I
had from time to time, she told me that my education was my responsibility.
If I had a good teacher I would benifit, but if I had a bad teacher, I was
the one that would suffer because I didn't know something.  I accepted that
responsibility a long time ago, and it actually got in the way of my formal
education.  It's hard to sit in a class when you figure out the entire class
in the first 5 minutes.  It's even harder when the professor doesn't let you
answer any of the questions because he knows that you know the answer.  I
was lucky enough to have a few teachers that knew my predicament, and could
handle it, but I also had a lot of teachers, (professors also), that were
threathened by my mental abilities, and I suffered as a result.  15 years
later, I wouldn't have changed anything, but at the time I felt like a
bona-fide freak because I learned so fast and easily.  I was actually told
that I didn't fit in because I'm smart!

>And Im going to pose a question too.. What does the net do for the
>imagination.?.

Depending on how well you type, it set's it free.

> a commodity little utilised by some and greatly undervalued by others. Yet
very important here.

>(If I mention netsex again you'll start thinking I am obsessed with it)

Like we don't already?  (Vicki, I got your message, I'm ignoring it, too hot!)

>I believe the net teaches us to use it differently..

NetSex or Imagination?

>see it a different way.

I'm not touching that!

>This is a place  ich with pictures,

Itch? or Rich?  But anyway, not if the US Government can help it!

>the pictures here exist in our heads, every post is another picture in the
>psybernet gallery..

Want to see my etchings?

>but unlike other text mediums this one is interactive..
>and I dont think that occours any where else in quite the same way.

I've never seen it anywhere like in this list!

>P.S (private message follows)
>
>Thank you, for finally convincing me that what I have is more important than
>what I lack. There is no such thing as coincidence.

PS.  SuperTramp's greatest hits make a great background to this!

---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From sfuze@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET Wed Apr 10 14:58:04 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The black sheep of Cyber souls.
From: "sfuze@tiac.net" <sfuze@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:58:04 -0400

> >I have to agree that mascara and the wonderbra are great inventions, but I
> >think that women should only be allowed to wear them on alternate rainy
> >Wednesday's..
> >Otherwise, women look too cute all the time, we males are constantly
> >overstimulated, and consequently we're categorized as nothing but animals
> >with no control...

Or you stop actually noticing (the more likely scenario).  Too much of a
good thing is never good...

Kyra.
(with the non-intro)

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From sfuze@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET Wed Apr 10 15:05:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: "sfuze@tiac.net" <sfuze@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 23:05:42 -0400

One way to look at this is as Moyer's "Many Minds" hypothesis -- that
we really are made of many different parts, with Multiple Personality
Disorder (MPD) being at the end of the spectrum (an inability to communicate
with oneself? An inability to reconcile different aspects to form a single
unified being?), and Schizophrenia perhaps at the further left end (an
inability to form cohesive parts of oneself in a comprehensive manner), and
the "normal" (I scoff at that term, that "normal") somewhere in the middle...
Replete with many parts of ourselves which we can trade off (mother, teacher,
businesswoman, friend, chess-lover, etc etc etc) as our needs fit...
However alot of times we have a difficult time not changing those personas
to fit what the other person expects us to be.

With the online world, we have the opportunity to explore facets of
ourselves without having to stress about how two possibly incontrovertible
beliefs might coexist.

IMHO, of course.

Are we only truly ourselves when noone else is around? (If a tree falls in
the forest and there's noone around, does it make a sound?)

Yours,
Kyra.

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Wed Apr 10 15:14:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Why Lists Can Hurt
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 19:14:23 -0800

Ouch!

Here's something we can say about mailing lists, I think: mailing lists
allow us to find and join "neighborhoods of the like-minded".

That's incredible.  There's nothing like it.  And I believe it makes us
(many of us) incredibly excited to join lists that sound as though they'd
be of interest to us.  Other people who share our concerns... out there,
somewhere in Alaska or Australia, Istambul or Munich... what a draw...

Add to that the fact that -- as others have pointed out -- our weight, sex,
racial coloration, financial and social status and so forth are
unannounced, so that we are taken at mind- and heart-value rather than at
face-value...

<what a give-away: he mentioned his weight first>

...and you have an extraordinary possibility for communication...

*

So there's an excitement, and we join a list...

Here's the problem: mailing lists are places where we can join in
conversations we wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to have -- but the
price is that we also overhear conversations we wouldn't ordinarily wish to
join.

Largely, it's a matter of language.

All of us <in fact I do declare let's not pussyfoot around this> talk in
*code*.

The code may be widely known, purely local, restricted to scholars in a
particular discipline or devotees of a particular religion... whatever: but
it's still code.  It's a kind of shorthand.

Americans mostly understand "baseball" code, but I don't.  I know what
"coming out of left field" means in the sense of making a comment that's
based on strange and unexpected assumptions -- but I haven't the faintest
idea why "left field" in baseball terms should be equated with strange
ideas, and if someone refers in passing to the "Knicks", I'm not surre
whether it's baseball or some other sport they're talking about.  Even
though I live in California, and have been in the States for twenty some
years, I'm an Englishman, and any talk of baseball is a "googlie" as far as
I'm concerned (that's a cricketing term: perhaps roughly comparable to "out
of left field").

Madonna -- would that be the Blessed Mary Ever Virgin, or a pop star?  It
depends on who's doing the talking.  But in either case, those who speak
the same code can gather a whole lot from a brief reference, while others
will be totally bewildered.

Psych talk can be the same kind of thing.  "INFP", I wrote in a private
post to Walter today, confident that as someone interested in Jung's system
of personality types he would understand I meant "introspective intuitive
feeling perceiver" -- and that *that *in turn meant someone whose inner
world is more real to them than the outer, who works on hunches and may be
vague on the details of practical living, who assesses things by how they
feel rather than how much sense they make, and who likes to leave things
open-ended rather than coming to some kind of closure...

That's a pretty dense-packed code, four letters to say what translates out
into 65 words... and I'm pretty sure Walter will "get" it...

But if he writes back, "Sure, I'm a typical Aries myself", I won't have the
first clue...

And the same goes for scholarly talk.  For scholars, it's a convenient
shorthand.  A word like "Nietzschean" can speak volumes...  But it can look
daunting if you don't speak that code -- as daunting as astrology talk, or
baseball shorthand...

*

And when we join a list, we come across some conversations that we *very
much* want to have, mixed in with some that are *daunting in the
extreme*...

*

One last thing.  A mailing list is a place where those who enjoy writing
and are good at it (but are also overweight, or the "wrong" color or sex,
or "too young to be believed", or "too old to be worth bothering with") can
shine.

Sometimes that means plain and simple writing.  Sometimes that means
writing with raw feeling, all nerves exposed.  Sometimes that means poetry.
And sometimes it means real scholarship.

Some readers pick up books by Robertson Davies.  Some prefer Bukofski.
Some love Rilke.  And some read Norman O Brown.

On a list such as this, you will likely run across some of each.

Please don't be daunted by any of the codes or styles.  Please don't get
mad because you overhear people talking in codes or styles that aren't your
own.  Please join i the conversations that interest you, in your own code
and style.

Please write.

I've gone overboard, I've hung out enough of my passions to feel both a
little vulnerable, and a little proud.  Please let me know what you think.


<Susan Swan, your posts are beautiful.>

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/index.html

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Wed Apr 10 16:20:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . .
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:20:51 -0400

Mila,

I said:
>>Language is a lie and actions speak louder than words.

You replied:
>So you're using lies to comm with us?
-snip-
>Mind to show us a really *silent* person via pure e-mail??

I'm not sure what connotations you may have applied to the first part of my
statement.  Let me clarify that when I say "lie" I am not referring to right
or wrong.  I am not making a reference to a moral universe.  Realize also
that I am not disparaging language.  It is a great gift.  But, action goes
straight to the heart.  For instance, an act of love speaks much bolder than
a simply repeated, "I love you."

There is nothing to lose, Mila.  Ultimately, my concerns do not lie with who
is more right, but whether we are communicating.  I know if I'm wrong then
I'll have learned something from our interaction.  To me, communicating means
that we are connecting on some level.  It is not simply relaying a message or
reacting to a stimulus.  If a thermometer reads 98.6 degrees F. then are you
and the thermometer communicating?

When I look at the larger picture of the happenings surrounding Psybernet, I
cannot deal with our subject in isolation.  I've been reading Jurek's
messages.  I haven't responded to any, perhaps because I wasn't confident in
my own ability to communicate.  But, I find that his points of view have led
me to ponder.

Jurek mentioned the role of context in conveying meaning.  I agree, context
is crucial in reformulating meaning (if I understand Jurek correctly).
 Perhaps, one should consider the context of the statements within a message.
 Understand that I'm referring to words simply as representations.  As has
been mentioned before, a word cannot fully capture the essence of an
experience.  Think also that, representations can be shown in such a way that
what has not happened can be presented as if it had.  Have you ever read a
work of fiction that is believable?  Can someone fake a love letter?

I'm going to stray a bit from words and bring a different example into the
picture.  Think about computer animation.  Here seeing is believing.  Through
the effects of lighting, movement and behavior, an imaginary creature can
appear as though existing in the real world.

Does this help to convey what I was trying to say?  Does what I'm trying to
convey make sense?  Is it believable?  Do you find it acceptable?

John

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Wed Apr 10 16:20:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:20:55 -0400

You said:
>Are you talking about the AP bit that was on CNN a couple of >weeks ago?

I distinctly remember seeing the researcher executing routines to mimic
facial gestures.  One was a grimace.  I don't recall the source.

>>Apparently, this researcher is using a computer interface to >>mimic mood
and emotion on a computer-animated visage.

>There are several people doing just this sort of thing..  If >there is
interest I can provide links to Web sites..

Now that I thought about it, Wilber, are you attempting a variation on a
theme?  Or, did I read that your goal lies in another direction?  A
fulfillment of an age-old quest.   The happiness of any visionary, to see his
dream achieve reality.  In this case, there are many dreamers dreaming the
dream.

It is enough for me to hear and talk about it, here in this space.  I am
afraid I would spend much time going down that road (surfing).  Thanks,
anyway.

>I think that Language translation is definately going to be a >target
market, but not the primary one for quite a while.

In retrospect, I have to step back and agree with you.  What generation of
A.I. are we dealing with these days?

>I think that there are significant differences between the >Japanese usage
of language and the American usage of >language.  I've done Judo since I was
seven and over the years >the difference between the Japanese people that
I've met and >the American's that I've met has lead me to believe that the
>Japanese have a more "Iconic" or singular connection to >language.  Japanese
as a language is more object oriented, and >I would imagine, as a result,
their thinking would be more >object oriented.  (ie, symbolic).

Here I will remain silent though I could venture my understanding.  You see,
I am part Japanese.

>I would imagine that the face will solve a lot of language >issues more
directly there than here.

I would argue otherwise but see below.

>Certainly, Sony and a couple of other Japanese companies
>are further along with this technology than we are here in the >US.

I have heard the Japanese software industry is critisized as being
unimaginative and uncreative.  In this industry the U.S. is king.  But on the
consumer hardware side, the Japanese have some advantage, regardless of
whether one sees it as marketing ploy or otherwise.  Perhaps, we will see the
creation of 'technology with a face' from a collaborative effort from both
sides of the Pacific, a sort of 'golden spike'.

A smile is a smile in any culture that I'm familiar with.

John

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Wed Apr 10 16:28:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 00:28:06 -0400

Walter,

You said:
>You mean it searches out the mood of the computer and feeds >that back--
like:  i am an a good mood because i have a brand >new CD-ROM!

>That is scary!

I should apply for insurance that covers errors and omissions.

John

BTW, I appreciated the structure you provided with the summary.  Helps me
keep track of what topics have surfaced.

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 10 16:52:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:52:00 -0600

Kyra (and company - hello to the silent ones),

        Kyra, I must admit that I got a little lost in the intro talking
about "Many Minds" by Moyer (alliteration!) since I haven't been reading or
studying in that direction.  However, I did get a sense of your offering as
I read:

K>Replete with many parts of ourselves which we can trade off (mother,
K>teacher, businesswoman, friend, chess-lover, etc etc etc) as our needs
K>fit... However alot of times we have a difficult time not changing those
K>personas to fit what the other person expects us to be.

        We do have many roles, many minds, many faces of ourself with which
to contend and to know.  Compatiblity and relationship suggests that we
allow many faces to come to the fore so that we can know each other more deeply.

K>With the online world, we have the opportunity to explore facets of
K>ourselves without having to stress about how two possibly
K>incontrovertible beliefs might coexist.

        If they exist, they aren't incontrovertible.  They share the same
space.  It might be that we just don't hear fully both of the ideas/beliefs?
Perhaps when they are follwed to their roots we'll find that they are indeed
kin.


>Are we only truly ourselves when no one else is around? (If a tree falls
>in the forest and there's no one around, does it make a sound?)

        Here in Psyberia, the answer is yes.  The lurkers hear.

Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 10 16:52:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Here I go again..
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:52:08 -0600

Dear consortium of hot and bothered,

        I couldn't resist it.  Mea culpa!  To open with a line like that
when people are listening?  Dolores, what do those lurlers say?

D>These have all been off list, because the lurkers of which I was one,
D>lurk not silently but like shadow. They follow our movements precisely,
D>they lurk at our heels and they contribute by seemingly not being there,
D>yet they are with us all the time its just you dont often get to see them
D>until certain conditions prevail.

        And how do they read our moments of silence?  I know that the words
we speak have an audience even if no one answers and acknowledges the fact
that I spoke.  Thats the hard part here, speaking and not hearing an echo,
not receiving affirmation.  Yet there are those out there who hear me, those
who nod their heads in agreement or offer a snide comeback for some comment
I made.

D>What I learnt from all this, and believe me I learnt a lot, is that I
D>don't have to feel stupid because I dont understand the technical jargon
D>being bandied about. I rejoice in my lack of education these
D>days...actually since I joined this list.

        Score one for the lurkers, a good one.  I wish that we had been able
to re-affirm your worth up front, believe me when I say that you are needed
here (and not as a she-devil).  As for lack of education, as a teacher I
know that schooling does not an education make.  I wonder why you would
rejoice at a *lack*?  For me a lack of knowledge (a real education) is a
lack of self-power, self knowledge.  I'm hungry for more, more, more!

D>A couple said they were shy of expressing an opinion, when they couldn't
D>use words of more than 9 syllables..that because they couldnt write  a la
D>mode academic and they were scared of being ridiculed because they
D>couldn't dress their words up in the same educated language, yet found
D>what was being discussed interesting if not a little dry. They wanted to
D>contribute..just didnt they could.

        Finding the courage to speak on a listserv is daunting.  Knowing
that there are at least 100 silent listeners who weigh all that one says
besides the experts with whom one tries to share some space makes it even
harder.  Sometimes one needs to bury the fear in big words, the bigger they
are the less chance that someone will call you a charlatan.  Simple words
require conviction and wisdom.

D>And Im going to pose a question too.. What does the net do for the
D>imagination.?. a commodity little utilised by some and greatly
D>undervalued by others. Yet very important here. (If I mention netsex
D>again you'll start thinking I am obsessed with it) I believe the net
D>teaches us to use it differently..see it a different way.

        Imagination?  First, I start to build.  I hear voices, voices that
speak almost in tongues here on Psyber-L (jargon?).  From these voices and
from their words, I envision souls in a swirling dance of communion and
courtship.  As for the nature of the developing relationships, sex is indeed
a component.  Every dialogue that is authentic that builds relationships is
sexual in nature.  Check out Thomas Moore's book _Soul Mates_ and the
discussion about this topic.  Here in Psyberia we are different, we must be
different as we leave all those other attributes which serve to define us
and must rely on our voices accented with our years of schooling, years of
isolation from the others we meet here.

D>>pictures here exist in our heads, every post is another picture in the
D>psybernet gallery.. but unlike other text mediums this one is
D>interactive..and I dont think that occours any where else in quite the
D>same way.

        Hmm-mm-mn?  Pictures in my head?  I find that I'm avoiding pictures
and trusting to my heart, to my intuition.  Perhaps we find auras easier to
see here in Psyberia.  Here there are not so *new age*, so tainted with
mysticism and magic.  Here they are the norm.  Oh lord, now what have I said?

Cyberie

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Wed Apr 10 17:45:03 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:45:03 -0400

>I distinctly remember seeing the researcher executing routines to mimic
>facial gestures.  One was a grimace.  I don't recall the source.
>

I have some MPEG clips.. I believe you were looking at the animated robot
that has 6 emotions..

>Now that I thought about it, Wilber, are you attempting a variation on a
>theme?

There's more than one person working on this.  I believe that I have the
software skills and the Corporate Systems knowledge to be able to make this
happen in a commercial setting.  First things first, I want to get a face
animated and able to understand English, along with speech recognition, and
the ability to look you in the eye, running on a PC.

>Or, did I read that your goal lies in another direction?  A fulfillment
>of an age-old quest.

It's not a new theme.  The "Wizard of Oz" comes to mind.

>The happiness of any visionary, to see his dream achieve reality.

That's what I'm hoping.  So far, whenever I've wanted to make something
happen in software, I've been able to do it.  If I don't succeed, this would
be a first.

>In this case, there are many dreamers dreaming the dream.

I certainly hope so.  I think that I have the basic's worked out, but there
are going to be more applications created for this interface than were ever
created for Windows.

<snip>

>
>>I think that Language translation is definately going to be a >target
>market, but not the primary one for quite a while.
>
>In retrospect, I have to step back and agree with you.  What generation of
>A.I. are we dealing with these days?
>
>>I think that there are significant differences between the >Japanese usage
>of language and the American usage of >language.  I've done Judo since I was
>seven and over the years >the difference between the Japanese people that
>I've met and >the American's that I've met has lead me to believe that the
>>Japanese have a more "Iconic" or singular connection to >language.  Japanese
>as a language is more object oriented, and >I would imagine, as a result,
>their thinking would be more >object oriented.  (ie, symbolic).
>
>Here I will remain silent though I could venture my understanding.  You see,
>I am part Japanese.
>

One of the factors that I think goes along with this is the difficulting in
typing Japanese into a computer.  From what I understand, the keyboard is
not a easy to use in Japanese as it is in English, at least that was my
impression from my tours of Nikko securities and the discussions that I had
with the executives there.

>>I would imagine that the face will solve a lot of language >issues more
>directly there than here.
>
>I would argue otherwise but see below.
>

I'm interested in what you see as the downside...

>>Certainly, Sony and a couple of other Japanese companies
>>are further along with this technology than we are here in the >US.
>
>I have heard the Japanese software industry is critisized as being
>unimaginative and uncreative.  In this industry the U.S. is king.  But on the
>consumer hardware side, the Japanese have some advantage, regardless of
>whether one sees it as marketing ploy or otherwise.  Perhaps, we will see the
>creation of 'technology with a face' from a collaborative effort from both
>sides of the Pacific, a sort of 'golden spike'.
>

I'm not familar with the metaphore "golden spike" but I do agree that there
will be some level of collaboration.  I would imagine that the face will
eventually speak the language of each of the major markets and will be
culturally correct for each of the markets.  I've had a people tell me that
I should use a woman's face as the first interface, but I want to use my own
first.  (Artist self-portrait metaphore here..)  Plus if it has my face on
it, there is very little chance that anyone will think that someone else is
responsible .. I've done enough work that other's have taken credit for.

>A smile is a smile in any culture that I'm familiar with.
>

I certainly hope so!  ;-)

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Wed Apr 10 17:45:07 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Facial Animation Links..
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 01:45:07 -0400

Just a few that I've collected..

The best site is Michael Cohen's at UCSC

http://mambo.ucsc.edu/psl/fan.html

There are a lot of links there to a lot of other sites.. plus movies, GIF's,
etc.

A discussion of making the computer more human..
To anthropomorphize or not?

http://gsusgi2.gsu.edu/~matjmm/agents/ia_anth.html


Then of course there's Interface Agents..

http://gsusgi2.gsu.edu/~matjmm/agents/agents.html


The Center for human modeling ...

http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~hms/


And a site that I just found, seems interesting, "Facial Animation Overview"

http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~sking/FacialAnimation.html


and a couple of guys doing an anatomically correct model of the face..

http://zorro.ruca.ua.ac.be/%7Eoverberc/alive/xplorer/


And some work at Sony by Katashi Nagao

http://www.csl.sony.co.jp/person/nagao.html


Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Wed Apr 10 18:38:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe..
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 02:38:59 -0400

Vicki,

So are you still on the PSYBER-L listserv?

What do you think about what has been going on there?

Wilbur

At 08:51 AM 4/2/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Wilbur,
>
>>I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv
>>groups..
>
>Don't unsub yet!  I joined for the same reason.  I'm sure we're not the
>only ones.
>
>Vicki
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Wed Apr 10 20:05:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:05:15 +0200

>From a dialog Robert <=> Jurek on Tue, 9 Apr 1996 13:14:28 -0600:

Jurek:
>Maybe the lurkers are more to inner dialog that to outer dialog?
Robert:
        Their existence and our knowledge of their presence almosts forces
us to be more authentic.  Glib and false messages will result in being
flamed or worse, ignored.
Mila:
Maybe we've different models of  what's going on "behind the screen".
Per def. lurkers keep ignoring every msg, as far as the sender expecting
responses is concerned. Flame throwers have ceased to lurk; they are avai-
lable for being entangled in a dialog, eventually uncovering the big pains
leading to their (potentially self-)destructive attitudes and responses.
In this model, authenticity of msgs in the eyes of the responders only.
For anyone lurking here, the dialogs s/he's watching resemble a podium
discussion giving her/him a chance to develop.
In this sense, a list is the primary form of a seminar - a sowing device
Responses are like seedlings - dialogs are loving acts of gardening (perhaps
each other)...

Mila

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From dee@EASYNET.CO.UK Wed Apr 10 20:34:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: A friend goes digital
From: josh on <dee@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:34:37 +0100

I came home early tonight feeling a little ill.  The first thing I did was
check my email, I have been enjoying the influx of activity on Psybernet
recently and have been considering writing again after having a year or so
off.

First however I scanned my inbox for personal mail ( I still don't have
anyway of doing this automatically and am getting damn tempted to learn
some code and write  something myself!) and saw that there was a mail from
a great friend here in London.  I met him a few months back in a club here.
He looked cool, ie I figured he was into the same shit that I am, so I
introduced myself and we have been hanging out quite a bit since.  Today's
mail was a bummer, not his usual witty banter about ideas for future events
etc, but a quick note to say that he was deported back to the States.

It was really depressing, I realised that he had been a big part of my
plans for Summertime, thoughts of throwing parties and having picnics or
whatever.  Now we are confined to email.  It really hit home about the
difference between life on and offline.  We can't play frisbee here, we can
be witty and stuff but we can't play outside.

Well all this is pretty obvious really, I don't think that anyone is
arguing that the net should be a substitute for anything, but still now it
will become the medium through which my time spent with him is
bottlenecked.  From analogue to digital.  (unless life is digital which it
might be in which case I guess it will be from DIGITAL to digital, like
that crappy watch I bought in Portobello).  It will be interesting to see
how the relationship changes...

Summer will be different now, a little bit more of it will be spent inside,
but not much more!

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From dee@EASYNET.CO.UK Wed Apr 10 20:34:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Here I go again..
From: josh on <dee@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 09:34:44 +0100

>Dear all that can be bothered..

That's me I guess!

I said "I can't be bothered " to an American woman last year and she
scoulded me for being so rude.  It was just something small and I thought
that she was over-reacting but she claimed that where she came from
(Washington DC) it was one of the most obnoxious things you could say.
Where I come from (New Zealand/Aotearoa) while it is rude, it is also a
fairly commonplace expression.

Your introduction may well have been a much stronger challenge to those in
the USA to those in the Antipodes.

Language is scary like that.

Dolores wrote:

>And  what nearly all the lurkers said to me.. was that they found the posts
>dry, colourless and without imagination, academic posturing. What I meant
>when I said by words for words sake. A couple said they were shy of
>expressing an opinion, when they couldnt use words of more than 9
>syllables..that because they couldnt write  a la mode academic and they were
>scared of being ridiculed because they couldnt dress their words up in the
>same educated language, yet found what was being discussed interesting if
>not a little dry. They wanted to contribute..just didnt they could.

Writing can be scary for me.  Not scary as in being in the same room as a
lion is scary, but just, oh shit I want to get this right.  Some of this
fear is constructive .  It censors some otherwise unconsidered spiel I
might go on  in some self indulgent state.  But some of it is a hinderence.
Some of this hindering fear comes form my own self expectations and some
comes from the expectations that I imagine others to have.  When you write
about academic posturing, I get a little more scared.  I don't want to be
some high brow wanker (fat chance of pulling it off anyway!)  who flirts
with the language rather than grappling with its contents.

But then, why not?  One of the best lessons of the academics and I think
popular figures of our time is that surfaces are important.  We can judge a
book by its cover, its best if you tell people that that is how you judged
it but that is a valid thing to do.  Posing and posturing is cool.  I like
it.  The miscarra, the cod-pieces, the jargon it is all rad as fuck, cool
as shit, and real.  You can't hide reality.  Whatever is "hiding" it is
real too, and must in some way relate to the reality.  I don't think I can
be bothered getting to hung up on expressing my real selves, I am to busy
trying express fake ones, but I just never seem to manage.  Oh god did that
sound pretentcious... whoops I'm getting scared again.

There is a "the The" lyric which goes "I'm trying so hard to be myself,
that I have become someone else" or something like that I lost my copy...
Anyway I would propose that "I'm trying so hard to be someone else, I'm
becoming myself" is equally profound and true and probably a more
profitable enterprise to be in.  Think of all those happy Elvis
impersonators!

And Dolores continued:

>So I put my head on the chopping block again..lurkers post and be damned..
>or admired, or flamed,

Of course! Yeah and posters try lurking for a change... nah what am I
saying?  Us people we do what we do...

>accademics try to be more understandable...more
>human, less educated in some respects, because there are some of us out here

I hope we all keep posing and posturing as much as is required.  If I don't
understand something than I will ask you to clarify it if I can be bothered
that is.

>that dont have degrees. It doesnt make us less intelligent, we still walk
>the walk though we dont talk the talk. Actually some of us walk it a little
>better in some areas because we dont have the weight of letters dragging
>behind us.

Too true.  But it took three years of academic agony (and pleasure) to work
out why it was that academic thought was so restrictive.  It really can't
be so neatly bundled together so neatly of course.  If for no other reason
than being able to coherently argue against the validity of traditional
diametrically oppossed argumentative structures was learning some thing of
those structures worth it.  If you get my drift.

fuck flirtatious filandering, figure I can't be bothered anymore so I am
going to sleep.

But to be sure I will be bothered to read tomorrows installment in the
ongoing saga of our psyber lives.

Thank you all

Josh On.

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From 100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM Wed Apr 10 21:16:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Some reflections
From: Guy Fielding <100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 05:16:13 EDT

Hullo: I've been reading the discussions (kindof a more neutral
term than "lurking") on Psyber-L for about a week to 10 days now,
and have been prompted to put some of my own ideas into the
conversational "pot" by Walter's recent summary. Not sure of the
value of these ideas and observations, and I suspect that
they will address the concerns of people like Wilbur Streett and
Vicki Colker more than some other participants in this extended
conversation. Here's some comments prompted by Wilbur's First Theme:

>From Wilbur's summary:

*  Varieties of metaphor of where we are -- a theatre -- on a hot tin
truth -- whispering in corners behind palms.

>>One of the assumptions we seem to make is that face-to-face
conversation is *not* a medium of conversation, that is, it is
somehow a pure and undistorting "conduit" for meanings to flow
(or in which they can be created). By extension, we assume that
all other media are somehow distorting, usually in the sense of
being inadequate in some respect as compared with face-to-face
conversation (eg Wilbur's concern with bringing the face back
to cmc). I think we need to recognise that all communication
is mediated, and that the media constrain and amplify particular
possibilities of communication, and this applies to both the richest
(ie broadest bandwidth communication) and the poorest (eg icons)
One of the implications of this is that each medium can be thought
of as constituting a "situation" for communication, with each
situation having its own ground rules, limitations and potentialities.
eg communicating by letter isn't better or worse than communicating
by telephone, its different, and good communication consists of
understanding the fit between the medium and particular purposes,
topics, audiences, and indeed senders. Anyone who believes that
a particular medium (eg emailed disussion lists) is "the best
medium" is deluded. (This is sounding polemical; sorry!!)

There's an extension of this idea. That is, that much of the
"definition of the situation" isn't determined by the objective
nature of the medium, but by the metaphors we have. A simple example
is that a building can be "defined" as a church, in which case
certain kinds of conversations are priveleged, and others are
taboo, and even particular ways of holding those conversations are
promoted eg speaking in hushed tones, avoidance of raucous laughter.
But the same building can be defined as, say, a pub (and here in the
UK there are lots of abandoned churches which have been turned
over to such purposes) and then a quite different set of rules
applies. So the metaphors we apply (often/usually without being
aware of what is being done) are powerful determinants of our
communication. We then get into the fascinating possibility of
creating/applying new metaphors/sets of rules which allow different
kinds of communication to take place. And maybe that's what's so
exciting about a new medium such as email/lists/cmc??

GUY

email: 100044.275@compuserve.com

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From hoon@APK.NET Wed Apr 10 23:27:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Some reflections
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 07:27:09 -0400

GUY wrote:

>There's an extension of this idea. That is, that much of the
>"definition of the situation" isn't determined by the objective
>nature of the medium, but by the metaphors we have.

>So the metaphors we apply (often/usually without being
>aware of what is being done) are powerful determinants of our
>communication.

My agreement here is meant to reinforce Guy's crucial point.

As George Lakaff has stated, we also have a tendency to inappropriately map
metaphors between different domains and then *act* accordingly. Psyberspace
is not immune from this; in many ways, it encourages this kind of
catagorical confusion. Also, that we do so both naturally and unconsciously
is pertinent both to how such confusion enriches, doesn't cause most people
any kind of cognitive disonance, and then may carry on with a life of it's
own.

Good examples are the constant comparing of f2f with cyberspace and the
naming of f2f catagories on an "as if" basis, or the unpacking of "Lurker"
as a term representing a monolithic 'other', etc.

metaphorically yours,

Stephen

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Thu Apr 11 00:26:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . .
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 14:26:13 +0200

John,

You wrote - in a context fully hidden to me -:
>>Language is a lie and actions speak louder than words.
You snipped:
>>Show me an authentic person and you'll see a silent one.

>From a pure logical point of view I transformed your statement into
a request if I did understand right, giving the example of "actions
possible via e-mail" to amplify the point I was up to:
>>>
So you're using lies to comm with us? Glad to see traces of your typing *ac-
tions*, since they speak louder, indeed, than the words they form; they shout:
"I'M TYPING, THEREFORE I AM".
Mind to show us a really *silent* person via pure e-mail??
<<<

Let's step thru the rest of your response:

>>>
I'm not sure what connotations you may have applied to the first part of my
statement.  Let me clarify that when I say "lie" I am not referring to right
or wrong.  I am not making a reference to a moral universe.  Realize also
that I am not disparaging language.  It is a great gift.  But, action goes
straight to the heart.  For instance, an act of love speaks much bolder than
a simply repeated, "I love you."
<<<
As told earlier, I didn't need to apply connotations; I simply mirrored your
language to show you how it felt.
I agree that action goes straight to the heart - most of the time.
Silent lovers can throw you into sickness if they swamp you with actions they
"mean" to be acts of love but *never* explain why they act.
Remember, too, that silence is used as punishment.

>>>
There is nothing to lose, Mila.  Ultimately, my concerns do not lie with who
is more right, but whether we are communicating.  I know if I'm wrong then
I'll have learned something from our interaction.  To me, communicating means
that we are connecting on some level.  It is not simply relaying a message or
reacting to a stimulus.  If a thermometer reads 98.6 degrees F. then are you
and the thermometer communicating?
<<<
Here I'm not sure what is meant by "communicating" and "connecting on some
level". Thermometers I read cause actions, such as irrigation. Texts I read
cause more detailed decision chains resulting in various degrees of delay in
response.
My personal feeling is simply that they type along in this list without any
regard to how their linguistic behavior may feel to others - bursting into
explanations instead, if responses don't match expectations. <sigh>

>>>
When I look at the larger picture of the happenings surrounding Psybernet, I
cannot deal with our subject in isolation.  I've been reading Jurek's
messages.  I haven't responded to any, perhaps because I wasn't confident in
my own ability to communicate.  But, I find that his points of view have led
me to ponder.
<<<
Which happenings exterior to the list do you allude to? I'm not located in the
US, so this wonderful list may have totally different contexts to us.
Therefore, I've come to use a minimal context strategy in responding.
This entails dealing with the sheer interaction as well.
I've got all on hd, so I can reread Jurek's msgs and see in what kind of lan-
guage xloud he happens to stick.

>>>
Jurek mentioned the role of context in conveying meaning.  I agree, context
is crucial in reformulating meaning (if I understand Jurek correctly).
 Perhaps, one should consider the context of the statements within a message.
 Understand that I'm referring to words simply as representations.  As has
been mentioned before, a word cannot fully capture the essence of an
experience.  Think also that, representations can be shown in such a way that
what has not happened can be presented as if it had.  Have you ever read a
work of fiction that is believable?  Can someone fake a love letter?
<<<
And this, perhaps, led you to the abbreviature "Language is a lie"?
In this context I  quite understand, thank you.
About fiction and faking:
I've done some sci-fi of the hardest kind, sounding believable as well as
irrefutable, so I've got to sneer at the carelessness showing up in most of'em
productions.
Being able to fake warmth in loving letters is like being thrown out of a
paradise of being sure - as I can testify.
But some called "moral insane" manage to fake body language - and thus whole
relationships.
If you're strict, gesture language is a representation too - some are able
to tell "lies" with.
Is an actor a faker of feelings, then??

>>>
I'm going to stray a bit from words and bring a different example into the
picture.  Think about computer animation.  Here seeing is believing.  Through
the effects of lighting, movement and behavior, an imaginary creature can
appear as though existing in the real world.

Does this help to convey what I was trying to say?  Does what I'm trying to
convey make sense?  Is it believable?  Do you find it acceptable?
<<<
Yes, John - as seen above, I did accept it.
But, think of that:
It is a long hard way - to the Tipperary of mastering one's own language...

All the best,
Mila

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From hetaira@EARTHLINK.NET Thu Apr 11 03:52:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Here I go again..
From: Tracy Stevens <hetaira@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 08:52:10 -0700

At 11:53 PM 4/9/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Dear all that can be bothered..

Hiya Horned One!

>
>Following the initial post in which I introduced myself to you and was
>proclaimed the Devil incarnate,

Awww man! I wanted to be Lucifer. *sulk*  Can I be your evil henchman?
Err...henchwoman?

> amongst other things, (I believe rabid
>amazonian sloth) was one of them,

Gee...I would've never guessed you were tall.

>several things have occoured.
>These have all been off list, because the lurkers of which I was one, lurk
>not silently but like shadow. They follow our movements precisely, they lurk
>at our heels and they contribute by seemingly not being there, yet they they
>are with us all the time its just you dont often get to see them until
>certain conditions prevail.

Yeah...mass hysteria will do that. Gotta love it!
>
>Anyway, my post seemed to shed enough light to make certain shadowy lurkers
>slightly more substantial and I recieved mucho email - it was to these
>people that I gave a detailed reason as to what had motivated me to send the
>post in the first place.
>(Details available on request. Send S.A.E and a cheque for $30 made payable
>to the Satanic church of the cosmic banana)

LOL!!  Do I get a share of the proceeds if I post to the group?
>
   <snip of Delores waxing poetic on the virtues of thinking for oneself>
>
>And  what nearly all the lurkers said to me.. was that they found the posts
>dry, colourless and without imagination, academic posturing.

*silent, lurking cheer...hip, hip hooray!*

>What I meant
>when I said by words for words sake. A couple said they were shy of
>expressing an opinion, when they couldnt use words of more than 9
>syllables..

Nah...that's not me...I can fling the verbose words ad nauseum...just don't
want to confuse myself in the process. I'm still looking for a good sentence
to use the word "epiphany" in....wanna help?

>that because they couldnt write  a la mode academic and they were
>scared of being ridiculed because they couldnt dress their words up in the
>same educated language, yet found what was being discussed interesting if
>not a little dry. They wanted to contribute..just didnt they could.

*shrug* Also not my reasoning.
>
>So I put my head on the chopping block again..lurkers post and be damned..
>or admired, or flamed, accademics try to be more understandable...more
>human, less educated in some respects, because there are some of us out here
>that dont have degrees. It doesnt make us less intelligent, we still walk
>the walk though we dont talk the talk. Actually some of us walk it a little
>better in some areas because we dont have the weight of letters dragging
>behind us.

Wow...good metaphor hon, I'm picturing this guy pulling a bunch of HUGE
letters tied to a rope across his back...sorta like Tantalus in the Greek
Myths?
>
>To sum up what I have come to understand in all this.. a comment by one of
>the lurkers.. who really should post and I wish they would, because if what
>they wrote to me is anything to go by  their
>erudite/imaginative/incisive/humourous observations are well worth looking
>at (How do you spell sycophantic?)

NO NO NO!!! Epiphany is bad enough...don't throw sycophantic out there and
make me look it up in the dictionary....let alone USE it in a sentence. You
cannot be a word I don't understand. *wry grin*
>
>"I've become firmly convinced that formal education is to get you from point
>A to point B (i.e. it gets you the degree to follow your career goals) but
>true learning and knowledge is a solitary journey, done on the side lines of
>"real" education."

Ohhhh...you are evil incarnate...using my own words against me...man...such
a pro! *wink*
>
>And Im going to pose a question too.. What does the net do for the
>imagination.?. a commodity little utilised by some and greatly undervalued
>by others. Yet very important here. (If I mention netsex again you'll start
>thinking I am obsessed with it)

I won't...but why do I have this vague, unfounded fear that Robert might?
*sly grin*

>I believe the net teaches us to use it
>differently..see it a different way. This is a place  ich with pictures, the
>pictures here exist in our heads, every post is another picture in the
>psybernet gallery.. but unlike other text mediums this one is interactive..
>and I dont think that occours any where else in quite the same way.

Here here...I'll second that.

Oh...btw...the honest reason I don't post? I get on the average 15-20 emails
a day...and I have this strange feeling of responsibility to people, I
always try to respond, even if it's just a brief, "Busy, can't respond...get
back to ya later".  Well, I'm fairly certain if I post to this list...I'll
be inundated with flames...and I'll want to answer them ALL.  No one has the
time to write that many emails....unless they type like a 100 wpm, and boy o
boy..that ain't ME.

So I'll stick to doing a few behind the scenes emails to the key people I
admire...such as yourself.  It's easier on the fingers. *grin*

Keep it up Delores...this is getting fun.

Cya,

Trace
AKA Your Politically-Correct-Yet-Fiendish-Henchwoman

>Thank you, for finally convincing me that what I have is more important than
>what I lack. There is no such thing as coincidence.

Right on! Gotta love a little daily synchronicity to spice up life.
>
========================================================

  "I wish a robot would get elected president.  That way, when he came
   to town, we could all take a shot at him and not feel too bad."

                                                     --Jack Handey, Deep
Thoughts

========================================================
Tracy Stevens
hetaira@earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~hetaira/

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Thu Apr 11 03:58:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Varieties of CyberPsych
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 15:58:45 GMT

Robert,

>         It's a little late (time has passed since your post containing the
> following words) but I want to reply to you anyways.

Never too late.

>         In the post I had written prior to yours, I spoke of tolerance. Here
> you speak of going beyond that, to an embracing of them.  Words with import,
> words that make me pause and then agree.  I have followed the posts since my
> last message.  Several posts by XMeff@AOL.COM (John) grated.  I felt the
> desire to rebut his remarks and to delete posts with his signature, but I
> didn't.  Taking a time out to question my own reaction to his words spoke
> about me and not him.  For that, I give thanks that he has become a vocal
> member of the Psyberian community.  As you said "welcome them".

Looking at this again -- I still say that.  However the welcomes can
include speaking our mind, our feelings, or even simply ignoring.  I
have in mind too what you are doing -- looking at our own reaction.  I
am seeing how easily my words could be read to mean something sugary
and unreal.  I was responding to this "kicking off" stuff.

The art is to find a way to be with the variety.  A way that honours
your own reactions and reflections.

back to rl,


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Thu Apr 11 04:25:54 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:25:54 GMT

Wilbur,

> There are several people doing just this sort of thing..  If there is
> interest I can provide links to Web sites..

Please send them up!


walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Thu Apr 11 04:35:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Some reflections
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 12:35:17 -0400

Guy,

I like what you had to say, and I felt even better when you quoted me..

>>From Wilbur's summary:
>
>*  Varieties of metaphor of where we are -- a theatre -- on a hot tin
>truth -- whispering in corners behind palms.
>

But I didn't write that.

On the other hand, I agree that the medium is different and brings different
possibilities to the forum..

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From 100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Apr 11 09:03:39 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Some more reflections??
From: Guy Fielding <100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:03:39 EDT

I'm still working my way through Walter's summary of the themes
that have emerged in the recent life of this group conversation
(sorry about that folks, we're a little slow over here...), and
I thought I'd pitch in with some ideas about "lurking":

Walter's Summary put it thusly(?):

*  The value of lurking -- the nature of list behaviour --

I'm struck by the "negative connotations" of the term (whatever later
rationalisations emerge, there seems to be a clear element of
disapproval implied, and quite a lot of the discussion of this
seemed to be based on the assumption that lurkers had to explain
their behaviour, whereas contributors did not. Couple of observations
about this:

a: in most face-to-face group conversations there are lurkers..in fact
it is an iron rule of group communication that 1 or 2 people occupy
about 40-60% of the conversational floor, the next 3-4 take up the
rest of the available floor, and past 6-7 participants, the remainder
are effectively silent...and the rule is "iron" in that the
proportions of floor space occupied by the first 2 or 3 most vocal
people don't change no matter what size the group is. It seems to me
that cmc-lists simply reporduce this rule. They also reproduce it
in the sense that the only way to break its operation in face-to-face
groups is to impose very strict structuring of participation (eg rules
used in NGT, parlimentary debate), and I think that some researchers
have devised similar strict rules for managing contributions to cmc
(researcher at University of Alaska??? was developing software of
this kind back in the early 80's???). An interesting issue is why
we don't seem to be phased by lurkers in face-to-face, but they do
exercise us in cmc..could it be that in ftf we are able to lurk
whilst at the same time using "back-channel" signals (nvb) to signal
our attention, interst, understanding, acceptance of the conversation,
but that lurkers in cmc can't do this...maybe we should devise a list-
equivalent to nodding and going "mmhm"??

b: another thing that strikes me about list-conversations and "lurking"
is that they pose the speaker with the problem of judging the kind
of conversation they are engaged in...in a small face-to-face
conversatuon the speaker can adapt their message to the particular
individual characteristics of the other participants, ie they are
involved in *interpersonal* communication. In a large group (100+)
the speaker can't do this, and they are essentially involved in
*mass* communication (even if they are addressing people face-to-face)
The problem in list conversatuons is that you "know" some of the
people you are conversing with (you may be responding to specific
things they have written), but you're also aware that there are lots
(100+) other people involved in the conversation who, because you've
chosen to send via the distribution list, rather than email specified
individuals, are particiapnts of equal status in the group..indeed,
they may be your primary audience in some sense eg you appeal to them
to add their voices to yours to support some particular point of view.
The sender is therefore simultaneously doing both interpersonal and
mass communication. The analogy that I think is closest in "old media"
is the "group chat show" on TV or radio, where 4 or 5 panelists
discuss an issue as if they are simply talking to each other, all the
time being very aware that they are (hoping that) being
watched/listened to by millions of people in a mass audience.

c: are there concepts of exchange and equity floating around in
our attitudes to lurkers??  ie that contributing involves effort,
and represents some kind of "gift" to the group, and that efforts/
gifts should, over time, be roughly equal/equitable??

Still mulling over ideas prompted by the contributors to this list..
many thanks for the ideas, information and stimulation
Guy Fielding

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Thu Apr 11 09:06:48 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: codes, contexts, dialogues, and netsex
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 16:06:48 -0500

Compatriots--After a few days away, I've spent the past few hours around the
kitchen table with you, catching up and reflecting on the threadswoven around
the conversation here. My musings here are more a synthesis after reading many
postings (in part because my e-mail system won't let me quote you directly
electronically--or maybe my human system doesn't know enough about how to do it
yet...). Walter-I appreciated your listing of threads--how interesting to see
the separate, yet linked conversations that have gone on.
        Charles' discussion of codes was beautiful. (Thanks for risking being
vulnerable here, Charles.)  His posting was rich with examples and led me to
wonder whether list conversations, because they potentially bring in a wider
range of coders and hence codes than we typically meet in our face-to-face
interactions, might lead us to create/construct codes which might be more
inclusive and tolerant of one another. We each serve as teachers/mentors to one
another in offering new codes, new metaphors, new contexts--and go away richer
for it. Jurek's consideration of context made me think of works by Kenneth
Burke--Burke talks about words as being shorthand for a context, for the fuller
drama of an action within a situation. Words thus can be labels for a whole
complex of action, motion, emotion--and may capture different aspects of the
same scene depending on our perspective. Metaphors, as presented by Aristotle
lo those many centuries ago, were a way of moving an audience from what is
known to what is unknown--it was a way not just of dressing up the "short,
sweet" true content of a message, but a way of creating new reality--a logic
not based in formal structure, but in moving together from one place into a
new place altogether. One of the tricks is finding the "knowns" that can act
 as the bridges to unknowns--this is of critical note when we all come from
different knowns (just look at all the different places we hail from as a
reflection of one set of knowns--Bonn, Germany; New Zealand; London; Texas,
Colorado, South Dakota, USA; etc) and want to take one another not only into
our particular known (an unknown to many others), but to take us all into
an unexplored and unknown realm.
        Connection does seem to be a part of this. I think the struggle with
moving from the know of F-T-F into technically mediated interactions is part of
what we are collectively trying to figure out here. It takes Goffman's work on
face-work into a new context. Maybe part of the struggle is wrapping our minds
around a connected non-connected interaction. What does that look like? I've
done some work in a somewhat more connected situation which might give us more
to think about. I taught a class last term (Sept. through December) that was
"networked;" in other words, it was taught in multiple sites. I was in
Vermillion with 10 students and had 50 other students divided between
classrooms in Sioux Falls (70 miles away) and Rapid City (about 300 miles
away). We were fully connected through a video and audio link, but each site
could only see 1 other site at a time. For my style of teaching (I tend to the
warm, fuzzy appraoch, believing that positive relationships give the kind of
connectedness which let teaching become a partnership--a joining of minds
rather than a dispensing of knowledge), I needed to figure out how to achieve
that link. Some of my strategies involved eye contact; if I located the
students in Vermillion right between me and the video camera, then any eye
contact locally was perceived as eye contact with everyone. It seemed important
to know people and use their names--for all of us, not just me as the
facilitator. I taught eventually from all three sites and that made a huge
difference in interaction--teasing seemed easier, which extended to interaction
between people in all sites, once I had met people face to face. Indeed, the
biggest challenge relationally was in keeping the people in Rapid City feeling
connected since I only got out there once. At any rate, in talking with the
students and then reading a lot of research on this, I found that immediacy
(the use of verbal/language and nonverbal cues of connectedness and positive
relationship) was linked with amount of learning, attitude toward the class,
attitude toward the instructor. We have collected a first set of data exploring
the link bewteen immediacy and perceptions of the technology--does a warm fuzzy
instructor make the technology "transparent"? does a traditional lecturer who
maintains interpersonal distance lead to negative views of the technology? What
this all has to do with our psyber-link discussions is the issue of connection.
If immediacy is important, how can it be created when the video and audio
channels aren't even there? Are people more satisfied with lists that somehow
create a sense of immediacy? Is there an immediacy of the soul that can be
conveyed through strokes on a keyboard? What is the link between immediacy and
authenticity and dialogue?
        Robert described us as "souls in a swirling dance" of communion and
culture (sorry if the quotation marks aren't quite accurate--my handwriting
once cold is questionable). He also positied, drawing from T. Moore, I think,
that "every dialogue that is authentic is sexual in nature." Maybe this relates
to an immediacy so close that we feel one with each other--unified in spirit,
at least for a moment. Mila said that "dialogs are loving acts of gardening
(perhaps each other)" (wow, how beautiful these images from Robert and Mila
are). Perhaps we are gardening intimacy through authenticity. It does touch
something physical also--despite the criticisms of intellectualizing as sterile
and full of bullshit, to be honest, I find that intellectual discussions that
create involvement, draw people in, draw me in -- mentally, emotionally,
physically. The passion which Charles describes as guiding his discussion of
codes is a real passion. The physical sensations of an intense discussion, one
which leads to new ways of thinking and knowing about ideas, are as real and as
powerful as sexual eperiences. The high in a meeting of the minds is every bit
as rich as the high in a meeting of the bodies. ...Now, lest I make myself too
ulnerable in this sharing of insight (it's feeling a bit chancy here), let me
shift this to the idea of netsex introduced by Laurel/Dolores. What a powerful
comment on the human imagination this carries with it--the notion that we can
build such immediacy through a keyboard! Clearly our minds have a marvelous
potential for filling in information to create wholes--and to become united
with onother, no matter how far away. (I think Plato would have been fascinated
with this--to him the sexual overtones of teaching were a given and, if I read
him correctly, the sexuality of the meeting of minds was seen as superior to
that of the meeting of bodies--or at least with female bodies for him. The
homosexual connection for him seemed a superior metaphor for the meeting of
minds, esp. as he saw philosophy as procreation of the soul as superior to
procreation of children.  ---hmmm, maybe he has a point. Soul-children don't
outgrow their shoes as quickly as the body-children do. :) ). This all comes
back down to the notion of immediacy and dialogue on the net--an issue that we
are exploring both in words and in our relationships as they build in this
little corner of psyber-space.  --and now, I must be off--I am supposed to be
commiting to paper an analysis of the archetypes for relationships as found in
"Beauty and the Beast" and have dallied long enough.
                                Susan

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Thu Apr 11 09:57:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 21:57:13 GMT

 John

> BTW, I appreciated the structure you provided with the summary.  Helps me
> keep track of what topics have surfaced.

Thanks, I thought of another *topic*:  Evolutionary cycle of lists.  I
did just that, listed topics,  but have not attempted to go deeper . .
. there is an underlying and universal theme  with its own sub groups
attached to the various polatities . . . can but see it vaguely.
...
Ah!  just as I write this Josh posts, and mentions valuing the
surfaces -- fair enough.


Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From 101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM Thu Apr 11 10:02:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Language and communication
From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:02:27 EDT

 In several e-mails the role of language as one vehicle of communication was
discussed. A specific feature of the psyberspace is the presence and interaction
of people with different native tongues. They all communicate in English or
Cyber-English. While it has been pointed out that differences in comprehension
exist already between British, US, Australian and other types of English how
much wider is the gap for those people who use it as a foreign language. Its not
so much the technical side of the language (correct grammar, use of the
appropriate word a.s.o.) than the cultural immersion which goes with it. If we
look at different languages (Japanese was mentioned in one of the e-mails) we
have to realize that these people think differently, too. To grasp the beauty of
a Japanese Haiku, the feeling it transmits is also a question of experience of
the geographical, cultural or social conditions of Japan of the last few hundred
years let alone the special features of the Japanese language. Another example
is Russian, a language of great richness of forms and differentiation. The
different words for describing relatives are legend and sometimes are not even
mastered by the Russians themselves. As Charles Cameron states "Americans mostly
understand "baseball" code, but I don't". So there are other areas which require
a specific background to make the communication successful, a sort of protocol
(in terms of computer language). Our psychic reaction to what we read depends on
our interpretation which in turn is heavily influenced by our cultural
background. People who have been exposed to two different cultures develop a
sort of schizophrenic condition. Matter of fact, Japanese companies or
universities like to send their newly employed members abroad for language
training but they dont like them to stay there for more than one year. Later,
after they have been firmly entrenched in the Japanese system, they are fit for
longer terms. The psyber-space is an area where differences in cultural
background will manifest themselves as the space expands. Which reality will
exist? Is the reality of a Russian or German different from that of an
US-citizen or an Australian? Obviously, Walter in one of his earlier messages
quoted from a poem (Hopkins) which obviously is famous in the Anglo-Saxon
domain. It was meant to transport a certain message. I never heard of it and I
did not understand the message. With respect to reality, Schopenhauer said
something like: In a given environment everybody is living in a different world.
Here, the given environment is the computer hardware and the cables connecting
them, the INTERNET, and the server where we post our messages. Is there one
psyberspace or are there many ?
Cordially, WFS

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From mrosen@DIALNSA.EDU Thu Apr 11 10:25:39 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Language and communities
From: "Marah Rosenberg~203-748-8835" <mrosen@DIALNSA.EDU>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 18:25:39 -0400

Hello All;

There's been some interesting posts here about the academic-ease nature
of this list.  And how that is / and can be very itimidating. I have only
a BALA from a SUNY and may be younder than most people on this list
(22)  however, I  created my on major called hypermedia and performance.
For a senior project, With about 10 other people we rewrote MidSummer
Night's Dream.  What I have always been fascinated with is how people use
technology.  how they interact and what roles they play.  this
collaboration ended up finding it's way to the Gannet Suburban papers and
the Village Voice.  I have also been quoted in Cyber Stage Magazine and
 Canadian public radio.  THerefore I am lead to believe that otherpeople
agree with what I am saying and doing.  and that I have a clue.


THis ego stroking session is taking place because I have posted to this list and
noone has bothered to respond or include me.  (why should i not lurk if
this is the treatment I get? )   Is my material not interesting enough?
Are you not seeing my posts amongst the othe 20-30 perday.  do you not
understand words under 9 sylables? ;) I know it must be something.  If
you want to know why I lurk , it's because I try to make contact and I am
not engaged.  I don't repost the message(s) I'm responding to because so
many people have somany good points on the issue that by the time I have
gotten to the post, it has been responded to 3 or more times and looks
like a mess.  it also takes up space.  So I try to just mention the theme
and subject to which i am responding.  (this is largely a matter to be
discussed in a nettiquitte forum - and in a different thread.)


____________________
Finaly to the (core) subject of this post.

Isn't it true that part of community building is the formation of
language?  I love hearing all the internet and psyber and psycho bable.

two years ago when my artistic partner and I decided to do our midsummer
on the internet, there was noone around that was willing to teach us.  or
that really could.  the formation of secret language seems to be tied up
in job (in)security as well as community building.  So we befriended the
c professor, learned how to get manual pages from the unix computer
itself, and learned. slowly.  I am proud of the knowledge that I have
earned, but i alos know that if i can learn it so can others.  this
doesn't scare me.   when i techno babble i try very hard to retain the
human element .  the metaphores that i used to learn.  the pedagogy, i
suppose.

where is this leading?
>From now on, when I post to this list or any other, I will continue too
use tla's (three letter acronyms) and other net and unix speak, as well
as vernacular relevant to to the topic.  however, I will also try to
reference it, provide a url or a paper recource so that others may self
educate.  If we insist that evceryone use plain simple english (american
or english or whatever other language of choice) then we flatten our
landscape. (is gentrify the right word)

Is there possibly a wayt that we can celebrate our diversity and also not
loose half the people out there?   (sereral times posts have gone way
over my head.  . little by little I understand more of what is going on
by referencing and by sheer immersion)

Even though this list has it's roots in psychology and psychologists, not
everyione in this community on line  is fluent in jargon.

can we create a new language for this new community, based on its members
and not it's content?
or is it just (a pipe dream)?

Marah Rosenberg
http://gaudi.va.purchase.edu/mnd.html
our midsummer

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From naskalia@CADVISION.COM Thu Apr 11 10:28:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Here I go again..
From: AK Naskali <naskalia@CADVISION.COM>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 17:28:16 -0500

Hi Dolores,

Okay, I'm a lurker, not so much because I don't have anything to say, but
because I procrastinate and feel somewhat overwhelmed by all the email I
currently receive.  But here's my two cents worth.....

As an academic (professional graduate student, former college instructor)
and an educator (former elementary school teacher, instructor of education
courses), I am disillusioned and concerned by the lack of "education" in
college/university academia and elementary/secondary school teachers.
Sorry, I'm generalizing here.  I do realize there are numerous exceptions.
I like the distinction made by Ashley Montagu between "schooling" and
"education".    Our current school system is based on the industrial
factory model and is totally inadequate.  It is in dire need of major
transformation (hence most of my studies).  I truly question the
"education" that is provided at ANY level in the majority of so-called
"educational institutions"!  And frankly, those hallowed ivory tower halls
which I sought in days gone by, no longer attract me.

I guess, one of the hopes I have for internet interactions is to be able to
participate (even as an active listener-lurker) in a heterogenous group
with people from a wide variety of backgrounds and experiences.  Different
ideas then could challenge us to expand our awareness and consciousness.  I
envision some kind of diversity in unity and  unity in diversity.  The
greater the differences, the more opportunity there would be for
creativity,  for learning about ourselves and others, for becoming better
informed  and stimulated to want to learn more - for becoming educated as
opposed to just schooled!

Peace,
Arja-Kaisa

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Thu Apr 11 16:39:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Here I go again..
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:39:11 -0400

Well, Josh.  I felt motivated to respond to your message, although it wasn't
addressed to me or in response to one of my messages.  "It serves a function
much like the Sabbath."  (the line missing between the two)

You said:
>I said "I can't be bothered " to an American woman last year >and she
scoulded me for being so rude.  It was just something >small and I thought
that she was over-reacting but she >claimed that where she came from
(Washington DC) it was >one of the most obnoxious things you could say.

Washington D.C.  This is truly a tragic place.  Shootings in the streets
amidst the millionaire's club on the hill.   A town where you're nobody
unless you're somebody.  The disparity between the economic classes really
comes to the forefront in this place.  Do the people who work here, live
here?  Josh, did she live there or just commute to work there?

>There is a "the The" lyric which goes "I'm trying so hard to be >myself,
that I have become someone else" or something like >that I lost my copy...

Yes, what a name!  I heard some lyrics from a 'The, The' song back in the
early 90's:

"If you can't change the world, change yourself".--The The

The idea expressed in the lyrics form part of my conception of pop
psychology.  But, you and I know that, bastardization doesn't diminish its
potential impact.  In fact, we reach a larger audience.

Back in my earlier days, we delighted in the thought that eventually the old
school of thought would die out, to be replaced by younger, fresher minds
(though we talked about it in more graphic terms).  Is it any different than
it was then?  The hippies who have grown up are now the establishment.  We
find that each new generation has to reforge it's identity in the smithy of
contemporary experience.

>But to be sure I will be bothered to read tomorrows >installment in the
ongoing saga of our psyber lives.

Saga.  Strange how that word reminds me of college students I once knew, who
were daytime soap addicts, people who lived their lives watching other
people's lives.  Well, not even really other people's lives but fantasy
lives.  My reaction to this was, "Hey, get a life!"  That was then.  This is
now.  I no longer say that because life is whatever it is.

John (a little bit slower and a little bit older)  <g>

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Thu Apr 11 16:44:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Josh ... Here I go again..
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:44:50 -0600

Hello Josh,

        I am a relative newcomer to the list (March 26 '96) and am pleased
to meet another of the participants from the past.

JO>Writing can be scary for me.  Not scary as in being in the same room as
JO>a lion is scary, but just, oh shit I want to get this right.  Some of
JO>this fear is constructive .  It censors some otherwise unconsidered
JO>spiel I might go on  in some self indulgent state.  But some of it is a
JO>hinderence. Some of this hindering fear comes form my own self
JO>expectations and some comes from the expectations that I imagine others
JO>to have.

        Your right, speaking out here (writing) is indeed scary.  Knowing
that we come with our own language/communication experiences, we speak
hoping that what we mean to say is the same as what is being heard.  How
likely is that when we all hear different things?  This is where dialogue
becomes important.  Dialogue helps us to put in the *context* that Jurek
talked about in one of his posts.  Dialogue helps us to negotiate meaning.

JO>You can't hide reality.  Whatever is "hiding" it is
JO>real too, and must in some way relate to the reality.  I don't think I
JO>can be bothered getting to hung up on expressing my real selves, I am to
JO>busy trying express fake ones, but I just never seem to manage.  Oh god
JO>did that sound pretentcious... whoops I'm getting scared again.

        No one can't hide *reality*.  Each of the selves we express is
*real* (do we have fake selves?).  We pose and posture and act a role for
the moment --- and still our *self* will ooze through our poses, our words.

JO>I hope we all keep posing and posturing as much as is required.  If I
JO>don't understand something then I will ask you to clarify it if I can be
JO>bothered that is.

        An open invitation for bullshit --- I like that.  I also take it as
an open invitation for poetry, for philosophic wandering and musing, for
critical analysis of arcane academaia.  Merci!

Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Thu Apr 11 16:45:04 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Tracy ... I overheard you to say ...
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:45:04 -0600

Tracy,

        Your response to Dolores was quite interesting and fun to listen to.
I repeat part of your dialogue.
D>>And Im going to pose a question too.. What does the net do for the
D>>imagination.?. a commodity little utilised by some and greatly
D>>undervalued by others. Yet very important here. (If I mention netsex
D>>again you'll start thinking I am obsessed with it)

TS>I won't...but why do I have this vague, unfounded fear that Robert
TS>might?  *sly grin*

        Touche!  Those of us with French blood do see things in a carnal
way.  We do relate the world (and the word) to a huge love in, a Woodstock
of romance.  Cherie, j'adore l'idee de l'amour.  Pour moi, la vie existe
afin de nous donner l'occasion de passer des heures avec quelqu'un qui nous
aime.

TS>Well, I'm fairly certain if I post to this list...I'll
TS>be inundated with flames...and I'll want to answer them ALL.

        Tracy, this is no *flame* unless you want it to be a candle flame
lit to keep out the dark.  Hoping to hear from you again soon.

Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Thu Apr 11 16:45:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: codes, contexts, dialogues, and netsex
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 22:45:23 -0600

Susan,

        I enjoyed your description of your distance ed. experiences.  As a
teacher who has used Internet for about three years as a means of
experiencing dialogue, I can relate to some of your questions.  You also
took some time in your post to comment:

SS>Robert described us as "souls in a swirling dance" of communion and
SS>culture (sorry if the quotation marks aren't quite accurate--my
SS>handwriting once cold is questionable). He also positied, drawing from
SS>T. Moore, I think, that "every dialogue that is authentic is sexual in
SS>nature." Maybe this relates to an immediacy so close that we feel one
SS>with each other--unified in spirit, at least for a moment.

        Yes, immediacy is a key element.  However, besides an immediacy,
there is reciprocity and negotiation at work here, conversaton that satiates
the mind like lovers find satiation in each others embrace.


SS>The passion which Charles describes as guiding his discussion of
SS>codes is a real passion. The physical sensations of an intense
SS>discussion, one which leads to new ways of thinking and knowing about
SS>ideas, are as real and as powerful as sexual experiences. The high in a
SS>meeting of the minds is every bit as rich as the high in a meeting of
SS>the bodies. ...Now, lest I make myself too vulnerable in this sharing of
SS>insight (it's feeling a bit chancy here)

        Perhaps that is why netsex has such an appeal.  For the price of
Internet, one can give and receive pleasure without feelings of guilt.
Guilt is associated with evil doing (often illicit sexual activity).  Not to
confuse what is happening online as sex, we might better describe it as
pleasurable as sexual fantasy.  This dimension has many appearances of
*fantasy*.

Cyberie

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From sfuze@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET Thu Apr 11 17:37:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: "sfuze@tiac.net" <sfuze@SUNSPOT.TIAC.NET>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:37:51 -0400

On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Robert de Cyberie wrote:

> Kyra (and company - hello to the silent ones),

Hehe. A little close to home, but not entirely true -- at one point I
*was* multiple.  This is as good a time as any to state my business (and a
short bio).

Who am I?

I am me.  At one point in time I was many me's.  Currently I am a student
(in both the literal and proverbial sense of the word) in psychology (and
in life), working towards my Doctorate in Psychology from a Masters in
Social Work.  I used to work with traumatized individuals, but am now leaning
towards spending my life doing research... It's easy to get burnt out, and
to develop a hardened-ness towards people, if you aren't careful in such a
line of work...

Who do I admire?

Tis better to quote literary characters than real people (although one
*could* argue that sometimes characters in books are more real than some
people) for me...  Howard Roark in 'The Fountainhead' (I don't particularly
care for the Ayn Rand Foundation, however...) is a good place to start...
I appreciate Pirsig's books (Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance,
Lila)... I have a place in my heart for alot of children's fiction such
as The Little Princess and the Secret Garden (which are now available through
the Gutenberg Foundation online, if anyone cares to look at them), for
reaching at the heart and producing a sense of wonder and hope that so much
adult literature (and adult living, for that matter) discourage, fear, and
repress.

What do I want from this list?

I like the repartee here, and the general quality that is so deficient now
on the net -- an ability to create art with words instead of believing that
the net (every part of the net) should be open to any and everything.  I
am an outspoken proponent of free speech, but believe in the premise "To
everything a season" (with apologies to the Byrds and the Bible) -- alot of
the words that are spoken online nowadays are far less sincere than the ones
spoken when I was first online several years ago (has it been 7 years
already??), and while there SEEMS to be so much more to the net now, there
is actually far less substance, and much less opportunity to have a
philosophical discussion about anything without somebody getting offended.

To use a bad analogy, the more kids you have, the less things you can afford.

I am not a very inflammatory individual, and have signed off of lists that
participate in extensive argumentation on stance -- it's equivocal to
arguing with a militant prolifer when you are prochoice -- a waste of time,
after the information on both sides has been made clear.  I have lurked on
many other lists, but not posted anything.  I have only posted extensively
on one list (and by extensively, I mean a few posts a week at most) --
the traumatic-stress list, and will make an occasional post on usenet from
time to time.

If you are looking for a lurker to this list, I can be that.

If you are looking for a participant, I would enjoy being that.

With that (somewhat odd, and not pointed at all) cluttered intro written
at an ungodly hour with little sleep and rarer dreams, I sign off now.

--Kyra.

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Thu Apr 11 18:00:30 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:00:30 -0400

You said:
>First things first, I want to get a face animated and able to >understand
English, along with speech recognition, and the >ability to look you in the
eye, running on a PC.

Wilber, or should I call you Faustus?  I would have words of warning having
traveled a similar route, but if steadfast conviction is what you have, then
I hope you realize your goal.  I have often seen that fire in others
extinguished in the process of time.  And, others who search in vain for that
fire that was their youth.  I think I am turning into an old fool.

>>Or, did I read that your goal lies in another direction?  A >>fulfillment
of an age-old quest.

>It's not a new theme.  The "Wizard of Oz" comes to mind.

I was thinking about that base urge to want to continue life whether through
immortality or creation of new life.  The spark of life that transcends
mortality.  (Sometimes words don't need to be restricted to a sentence.)

>I'm interested in what you see as the downside...

I find that I'm good at beginnings but sometimes unfortunately only that.  I
like to open doors.

>I'm not familar with the metaphore "golden spike" but I do >agree that there
will be some level of collaboration.

Yes, my apologies.  I was not too clear about this.  This is an allusion to
the 'Iron Horse' of the late 1800's.  Railroads were being constructed
simultaneously in the United States from the West Coast and the East
Coast/Midwest.  I think one place where the rails converged was in Utah.  A
golden spike was emplaced to symbolize the completion of an unifying goal.

>I've had a people tell me that I should use a woman's face as >the first
interface, but I want to use my own first.  (Artist >self-portrait metaphore
here..)

Have you ever seen the rendition of a generic face?  The face is a
compilation of many faces.  It looks something like everyone but like no one
in particular.  If this face was used, then it'd force me to remember names
better.  <g>

John

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Thu Apr 11 18:00:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . .
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:00:32 -0400

Mila,

You said:
>From a pure logical point of view I transformed your >statement into a
request if I did understand right, giving the >example of . . .

I'm sorry, I really don't feel like responding likewise.

>Here I'm not sure what is meant by "communicating" . . .

Entities communicate.

>My personal feeling is simply that they type along in this list >without any
regard to how their linguistic behavior may feel >to others - bursting into
explanations instead, if responses >don't match expectations. <sigh>

Of course, but with yourself excluded.

>And this, perhaps, led you to the abbreviature "Language is a >lie"?  In
this context I  quite understand, thank you.

What are you tripping on, Mila?

John

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Thu Apr 11 18:00:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language and communication
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 02:00:36 -0400

WFS (Dr. Schmidt),

>People who have been exposed to two different cultures >develop a sort of
schizophrenic condition.

With respect to psyche, I have heard this referred to as:  Insanita
germanica.

John

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From jgmd@MINDLINK.BC.CA Thu Apr 11 19:13:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Some more reflections??
From: Jane Garland <jgmd@MINDLINK.BC.CA>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 00:13:59 -0700

Guy fielding wrote: I'm still working my way through Walter's summary of the
themes
>that have emerged in the recent life of this group conversation
>(sorry about that folks, we're a little slow over here...), and
>I thought I'd pitch in with some ideas about "lurking":
>
>Walter's Summary put it thusly(?):
>
a: in most face-to-face group conversations there are lurkers.

...... An interesting issue is why
>we don't seem to be phased by lurkers in face-to-face, but they do
>exercise us in cmc..could it be that in ftf we are able to lurk
>whilst at the same time using "back-channel" signals (nvb) to signal
>our attention, interst, understanding, acceptance of the conversation,
>but that lurkers in cmc can't do this...maybe we should devise a list-
>equivalent to nodding and going "mmhm"??
>
>c: are there concepts of exchange and equity floating around in
>our attitudes to lurkers??  ie that contributing involves effort,
>and represents some kind of "gift" to the group, and that efforts/
>gifts should, over time, be roughly equal/equitable??
>
>Still mulling over ideas prompted by the contributors to this list..


As a  relatively new lurker on this list, I think the "slow to warm up
"temperamental" factors need to be considered. It has taken me a while to
develop a relationship with the several lists I have been part of for
1-2years, but now they are old friends... This is my way of saying "mmhm",
"I'm interested and listening and figuring out who you are... When I feel
comfortable, I'll say something". Jane Garland

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Thu Apr 11 23:33:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Language and communities
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 13:33:34 +0200

Hi, Marah,
glad to meet you here. As I'm getting from your lovely posting, you're scared
by feeling totally ignored. In other words, you're confronted with *silence*.

You don't seem to have read earlier posts on the silence topic, in which Walter,
Robert, myself and others exchanged chiseled msgs doing their utmost to keep a
playful tone. I've never concealed my being hurt by that silence - while their
tenor always was running like "We're *hearing* the silence; it keeps telling us
something we just can't express", thereby artfully sidestepping and circle-dan-
cing the concern I tried to voice:
If getting zero responses, you can be sure they've given you *no* cues whatever
in which directions they're expecting you to develop.
Thank you for the opportunity to go one step further:
Complete silence *entitles you* to write on *any* topic *you* choose - no mat-
ter how gaga or exotic - as long it's *formally* embeddable into "psyberspace".
For example, a valid reaction on *complete silence* could be telling a faerie-
dream in which characters such as myself or others you're perceiving onstage
here are transformed in your favourite pets or flowers or whatever things you
like or dislike. Just add a bit action to the scenery you composed thus - and
you bet they'll respond in all tonalities they avail.

Writing this onlist is meant  as a threat from me to act correspondingly, if
I'd feel neglected (I own 3 wonderful cats - one to impersonate Robert...).

Finally, lemme try to respond to your core quest on language:

>>>
Isn't it true that part of community building is the formation of
language?  I love hearing all the internet and psyber and psycho bable.
<<<
hmm-m - but do we here like to be heard as mere babble generators instead of
being listened to the content we try to convey ??

>>>
two years ago when my artistic partner and I decided to do our midsummer
on the internet, there was noone around that was willing to teach us.  or
that really could. ...
<<<
What is it that tech babbling gives you ??
Feeling to belong to some secret community of adepts??
How is it for you  to use tech metaphors about human beings ??
Have humans to "function" like computers or the like??

>>>
>From now on, when I post to this list or any other, I will continue too
use tla's (three letter acronyms) and other net and unix speak, as well
as vernacular relevant to to the topic.  however, I will also try to
reference it, provide a url or a paper recource so that others may self
educate.  If we insist that evceryone use plain simple english (american
or english or whatever other language of choice) then we flatten our
landscape. (is gentrify the right word)
<<<
If I get it right, you'd like to transform our lovely psyberspace into an
Orwellian nightmare equipped with a suitable Netspeak - in which some of
the intimate human feelings/questions don't exist any more - because they
have no translation to Netspeak?? What a Brave New World that you sketch!!

>>>
Is there possibly a wayt that we can celebrate our diversity and also not
loose half the people out there?   (sereral times posts have gone way
over my head.  . little by little I understand more of what is going on
by referencing and by sheer immersion)
<<<
The smaller the community the better for celebrating diversity and other
ego-strokers.. I've switched the phe psyber-l to ACK again, just for bo-
dycount.

>>>
Even though this list has it's roots in psychology and psychologists, not
everyione in this community on line  is fluent in jargon.
<<<
Fluency in jargon is the main obstacle for clients to be helped.

>>
can we create a new language for this new community, based on its members
and not it's content?
<<
On which members? (given that they come and go unnoticed - mostly).
Mind to explain your proposal a bit further?


Thank you for the opportunity to respond,
Mila

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From garson@HIWAAY.NET Fri Apr 12 02:09:56 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER Re: A friend goes digital
From: Regina Garson <garson@HIWAAY.NET>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:09:56 -0500

Hi,
My name is Regina and I am new to the list, no comments yet, but a
suggestion from another group in which I participate that had the same
problem.  We all include a part of the listserv name in the subject line so
messages are easily scanned and dealt with in a timely manner as to business
or pleasure. I.e. PSYBERNET RE: etc.
>
>First however I scanned my inbox for personal mail ( I still don't have
>anyway of doing this automatically and am getting damn tempted to learn
>some code and write  something myself!)

Regina Garson
Magic Stream
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~garson/

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From garson@HIWAAY.NET Fri Apr 12 02:28:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER  Re: I'm a lurker, and I'll stay that way, or unsubscribe..
From: Regina Garson <garson@HIWAAY.NET>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:28:20 -0500

Hi,
I'm new and joined for the same reasons you site. By way of introduction, I
maintain a web site that is devoted to emotional wellness and provides as a
data base of resources relevant to mental health issues, as well as a
literary zine focused on emotional issues. I am an older student - second
time around, gone back to school and hope to specialize in the treatment of
trauma. My first degree and background has been in
advertising/communications.  I am especially interested in the use of
creative writing and literature as a tool in healing and see endless
possibilities in the future of the net.

>From discussions I have had both on and off line I have found the internet
is a valuable resource for connecting especially for individuals who for
some reason are isolated, perhaps by disability or maybe geographically and
are able to utilize the net, especially listserv as a support group. I have
also known individuals with more rare emotional diagnosis being able to
connect with others in the same situation. At times this connectedness can
mean more to the healing process than the actual therapist.

I had hoped to lurk a while a first to get a feel for the discussion, and
don't really have a starting discussion.  Since there doesn't seem to be one
on the topic,  I thought I'd just introduce myself.  I am here to hopefully
learn a little, and make constant improvements in my on-line emotional
wellness projects.

Regina Garson
Magic Stream
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~garson/

.
>Vicki,
>
>So are you still on the PSYBER-L listserv?
>
>What do you think about what has been going on there?
>
>Wilbur
>
>At 08:51 AM 4/2/96 -0600, you wrote:
>>Wilbur,
>>
>>>I joined this list to get into a discussion of the Psychology of Listserv
>>>groups..
>>
>>Don't unsub yet!  I joined for the same reason.  I'm sure we're not the
>>only ones.
>>
>>Vicki
>>
>>_______________________________________________________________
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>>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>
>>
>---------------------------------------
>Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
>---------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>

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From 100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Apr 12 07:51:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lists and Differences
From: Guy Fielding <100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 15:51:20 EDT

In a recent posting Arja-Kaisa Naskali wrote:

>>>>>>
I guess, one of the hopes I have for internet interactions is to be able to
participate (even as an active listener-lurker) in a heterogenous group
with people from a wide variety of backgrounds and experiences.  Different
ideas then could challenge us to expand our awareness and consciousness.  I
envision some kind of diversity in unity and  unity in diversity.  The
greater the differences, the more opportunity there would be for
creativity,  for learning about ourselves and others, for becoming better
informed  and stimulated to want to learn more - for becoming educated as
opposed to just schooled!
>>>>>
Several previous posts have struggled with the tensions caused by
different dialects (academic-ese vs vernacular) and commented on
the excitement of the enormous variety of different kinds of people
and associated perspectives/styles who are posting to this list.
Maybe there is an important point here,
which is that communication is possible because of what we already
share (language, culture, existing knowledge) but it is worthwhile
beccause of the differences (what we don't already share). If the
differences are too great we can't communicate, or can do so only
with enormous difficulty and at great risk of misunderstanding.
If the differences don't exist, aren't big enough, there is no or
little point in communicating. The "trick" is to get the right
balance, and one of the things this list has been discussing/working
out is how to manage that balance. One way it is managed is by
people simply "dropping out", another is by people working out
a new, shared dialect (and related rules of conduct) (and maybe
"lurking" is partly about people doing that learning, and getting
up confidence to produce as well as receive..just as we can often
understand a foreign language before/better than we can speak it).

I've been involved in setting up student exchanges, and the slogan
I've coined for our exchange programmes is that "the similarities
(between university programmes) make exchanges possible, the
differences make them worthwhile". It seems to me that that notion
applies equally well to communication, and explains some of the
excitement of list-conversation.
Guy Fielding
100044.275@Compuserve.com

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Fri Apr 12 08:25:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: The Starving Wolf and the Three Big Fat Pigs
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:25:41 +0100

My dear particants of 'Psybernet', I would like to crawl out of my den
and speak after lurking for, well, quite a long time.

I've been reading Psybernet for over a year now, and have found the
discussions interesting - I havent contributed partly for lack of time
to do the posts justice, partly because of context and partly because I
have not up until now had the right ideas at the right time to press the
big red button and post.

In the last few weeks I've been able to spend some time actually reading
the articles rather than consigning them to their dusty grave in the
depths of my hard drive, and I think I've - just this once - managed to
put together enough interesting ideas to make a proper response.

The thread on lurking intrigued me, I being something of a veteran at it, and
now Dolores's and Tracy's articles having pressed several of my personal
buttons I find that I might just be 'on-topic' as well.

So, in answer to the calls to 'lurk no more', I hereby crawl out of my den
and echo an old and vaguely sinister saying:

'Be very careful what you wish for... you just might get it'.  :-)

And if I'm thought of as the big bad wolf for hiding so long in the dark
and only pouncing when the discussion ventures into my lair....

Perhaps it's a case of 'The Starving Wolf and the Three Big Fat Pigs...'? :->

Just kidding...

Let me explain what I mean by 'pushing my buttons', then.

1. Robert mentioned Robert Pirsig and his book Lila, which is one of my
all-time favourite books and a cornerstone of my own. I've written
a computer program called 'Lilamap', which attempts to make a true
implementation of the filing system Pirsig describes combined with
computer mind-mapping, 'hypno-reviewing', my variant of the photo-reading
technique , cross-referencing and pattern searching of mind-maps, text files
and news articles, and computer aided self hypnosis.

Stephen Calhoun' article about parsing words pressed a few buttons with
me too, and I had some fun making a mind-map out of it. It got me thinking
too about how with a simple keyword-parsing program I could turn the
news articles I have [including Psybernet] into a huge master-mind map.

[mind-maps are the work of the British author Tony Buzan - they consist
of diagrams with images and codes which allow the brain to remember
information far more easily than with linear text.]

Anyone still awake after that? :-)

Tracy mentioned synchronicity. I've recently had a series of coincidences
so outrageously bizarre that I had to admit defeat and accept that Jung
was right. I enjoyed browsing Tracy's web pages and found links to quite
a few pieces of information which fell into place just at the right time,
and which I have been looking for elsewhere without success - much
appreciated. I'd like to recommend the book 'The Celestine Prophecy' to
anyone interested in synchronicity, also.


3. Some miscellaneous buttons got pressed by Charles Cameron's mentions
of lurking and flaming, Wilbur's mention of the devil and Dolores's
of mad cow disease. Having personal experience of all but the last
[I hope:-)] , I found these articles interesting too.

It was Susan Swan's ideas on civility and John's discussion of
political rhetoric, hypnosis and truth which finally pressed the
trigger; I have great experience of rhetoric, hypnosis and Machiavelian
Deviousness on the net, being a veteran of the alt.hypnosis and
alt.psychology.nlp Usenet flamefests.  I found Dolores's contention of
'civility counting for diddly' and the 'cut the bullshit' speech fascinating,
since it reminded me of the persuasion tactics of the 'great satan' himself,
Ross Jeffries of the alt.psychology.nlp flamewar. If Dolores isnt Satan
incarnate, Ross is at least in with a good shout in the minds of many
long-suffering net-surfers.


I have a blatant ulterior motive in saying the above in that I want to post my
'Jeffries ideas for nice people' article in response to Dolores's other
points, too.

4.

'Truth is an essential of beauty...
and love the most beautiful of all.'

Well said. I would like to post my own 'Love Changes Everything' Article
here to show how completely I agree with Dolores on this. It's long, but
I hope it will serve as a better introduction of myself and my ideas than
I can give off the top of my head.

I'll also post my 'Jeffries ideas for nice people' article which complements
the first article by explaining what I really did to experience 'deep true
love' under hypnosis.

5. I'd like to end this article by replying to some of Dolores's comments;

> Wake up and smell the coffee. What you think you see is almost never what
> you get.

That depends on  your filters; When I first started lurking here, I understood
little of what was said; as time went on I picked up the meaning of some
of the terms used, and my interest increased as I began to understand what
Walter and others were getting at. I think 'academospeak' can obscure meaning,
but it can also convey subtle ideas we cant otherwise label - it's the
intent behind the words that makes the difference IMO, and the intent here
seems wholly friendly and positive.

>Thank God nobody speaks in real life they do on a list.

Actually, *I* do! Seriously, I have been accused of this quite a lot.

Nobody
> would ever be understood,

Wrong....

and nobody would ever be bothered to listen.
Wronger!

Do > you speak like this in reality? I hope not.

My apologies... :-)


What's wrong with plain English?

Nothing....but there is all the difference in the world between a vocabulary
which is used to it's best effect - and often long words and agreed definitions
are most effective in complex discussions - and one which is deliberately
designed to obscure meaning and keep out outsiders. Whilst people here may
have some of the latter forced on them, I think in spirit they're by and
large in the former camp.

In NLP we have a caveat:

'The meaning of a communication is the outcome it produces';

I like that idea; I've found here that the messages have been intended
to produce positive outcomes, and have for me;

> Is there some sense of insecurity that makes you want to parade your
> "intelligence" in a whole load of frilly terms - God spare us all from
> self-styled net poets. It takes 15 sentences to vomit out a sentence that
> only merits 3. Thats the problem with lists, you make them elitist and in
> the end only the elite remain. No growth just stagnant discussion and re
> discussion.


Aaargh! That paragraph seems to me to be a web of presuppositional language.
It's a machine-gun of negative images and implications;

In saying that, I've enjoyed Dolores posts on the whole and believe her
intentions to be positive too, so I'll take my own advice and focus on the
good.

This is one of my pet ideas, that if we encounter good and bad wherever
we are, we should focus on the *good* and not on the bad. Dont give it
the energy! Where attention goes, energy flows....

And when I focus on the ideas in Dolores and Tracy's posts which I like,
I find a lot of good to explore and think about.

6. I'll round off by listing the articles I'm attaching to this & some
references to my own stuff. I cant promise to be a regular poster here
but I will bark if my chain's yanked.

In closing I'd like to thanks everyone for their thoughts, their efforts
and their time.

Best Regards

Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk



Articles
---------

Love Changes Everything, Steve Murray, GNU freeware
Jeffries Ideas for Nice People, GNU freeware
Computer Aided Self Hypnosis, GNU freeware.

References
-----------

Lila, Robert M Pirsig
The Mind Map Book, Tony and Barry Buzan
The Celestine Prophecy, James Redfield
And the Truth shall set you free, David Icke

My web pages are at

www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Fri Apr 12 08:29:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: 'Love Changes Everything' article
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:29:20 +0100

<PRE>


Love Changes Everything
-----------------------



Just over a year ago I was suffering from irritable bowel syndrome,
unable to think well and probably couldnt have written an instruction
manual for a crisp packet never mind an article like this. At the time,
I blamed my having gotten into that state on everything and everyone
I could think of, bar one;I blamed my employers, the water, the air,
the government, my friends, my family, God, Satan, the 'system',the list
went on and on, as did my symptoms. As it turns out the one thing I
didnt point my finger at turned out to be the real culprit - me.

I didnt really have any 'big' problems which were depressing me and
stressing me out  - it was more an accumulation of little things and a
general malaise, with a default depressive attitude, drooping head & a
pessimistic & apathetic undercurrent to everything I was doing -
which wasnt very much.

These little things would have an incredible capacity for niggling &
infuriating me - a disapproving glance as I passed people in the
street, a slightly amused or sarcastic reaction when my tone of voice
or general unassertive manner turned people off, an overriding
feeling of being disqualified from other people's good opinions &
being treated as  a second class citizen BECAUSE I was depressed;
this was the final cut, that most of the disapproval & 'unfair'
treatment was as a result of my having been depressed, stressed and
kept down by that same treatment in the first place.

Something I just didnt see over the whole time I was in this rut - a
good ten years all in all, if not more - was that it might have been ME
who had depressed myself. I wouldn't entertain that  possibility
because I had too much evidence of the nasty, brutish life I was
experiencing to let go of the onething I would cling to - 'it's not my
fault'. That would have been the final cut, the last humiliating
embarassment, to think that it was ME who was responsible for my
wasted life.

What follows is the tale of how I found out that it was indeed me who
was responsible for my situation, and how I was finally able to admit
it to myself and other people.

An eye for an eye

Working in Southern England I had become obsessed with the fact
that other people seemed to be constantly trying to get at me. In
shops, people would seem to deliberately try and brush past me at a
moment and with an abruptness calculated to cause discomfort; I saw
hidden agendas everywhere  with the least simple things people were
doing, in trying to get served before me in queues by sneaking past, by
sneering as I walked past them or by walking & moving with such forceful
postures & swiftness of gesture that my attention & my composure was
disrupted - with a residual resentment growing on my part that they had
done this on purpose.

It's difficult to describe the intensity & malignance of these feelings
as I am now sitting here typing without being able to remember
properly what they were like; They were strong enough however to
fill me with hate and cause enough stress to make me badly
physically ill.

After a while I realised that my health was deteriorating to the point
that I would probably be unable to work were it to continue it's
decline; I also realised the senselessness of my letting things get to
me since surely these people's actions didnt need to upset me. I
realised too that it was probably mostly in my head anyway, since people
in general have better things to do  than to deliberately try and wreck
my health. I went through this thought process one evening and suddenly
the answer came to me;

-what was really causing the stress, the anger & the deterioration in
my health was not these people's actions; it was my perception and
opinion of what their actions and motives were. I had not realised
that these are not the same thing - and that although I couldnt change
the other people, I could certainly change my own reaction.

I tried this, telling myself that I would just refuse to get annoyed and
realised that if I couldnt see or hear these other people then they
wouldnt be able to affect me; I would just pretend that I couldnt see
or hear them. I went on a train journey, and came home totally
wrecked since it just hadnt worked. It's all very well telling yourself
you feel OK and arent bothered when someone is noticably sneering
at you & obviously having a good laugh & a good gloat at your
depressive, messed up appearance & manner. Actually it did work the
first few times but I had forgotten just how many annoying incidents I
would tend to have in one day - sometimes over a hundred.

I realised then that if I could have a half hour to rationalise each
incident, and go through the whole thought process each time an
indicent occurred & I found myself feeling angry and annoyed, then I
would probably be OK. All I had to do was find a spare 200 hours or
so every day and then I could feel all right for most of the morning.

I decided at this point to try using a 'codeword', a word to summarise
this though process, which I could mutter under my breath whenever
an incident annoyed me, and which would remind me there and then
that the annoyance was all in my mind, that the offending cretin
probably didnt care what I thought anyway and that it was up to me
whether I wanted to let the incident get to me or not; I tried muttering
a codeword under my breath which would sum up this train of
thought and....

It didnt work. Although the codeword managed to bring back the 'it's
ok to let it go' realisation which the half-hour train of thought had
brought, it didnt overcome the hate. I still wanted to get back at the
offending cretin(s), and the hate was stronger than my reason;
although it made me feel a  little better, the overriding residual
emotion after each confrontation was still one of hate, and the quality
of my health continued to spiral downwards.

And then I realised something - I thought to myself 'Well how CAN I
get back at them? the worst thing I can probably do to them is to
leave them the way they are, full of hate, negativity, resentment &
evil. Anything I do to them will just rebound on me, and make things
worse; the worst thing I can do to them IS probably to leave them
alone.

 This didnt convince me , but the following did - it didnt matter
whether or not they were doing 'it' intentionally, whatever 'it' was that
they were doing in my perception to try and get at me; if they werent
deliberately trying to have a go at me then I didnt want to react and
give them a hard time when they werent doing anything wrong. If
they WERE deliberately trying to, whether consciously,
subconsciously, by design or by default, then I DID want to get back
at them but the best way to do that was to leave them alone, not
retaliate and allow fate to handle them. This is what I mean when I
say 'the worst thing you can do to them is to leave them as they are'
since I do believe that when people commit evil acts that they will
rebound on them.

At the time I thought up this codeword, I could see the offending
people getting damned for it; And so I realised that I was right in
saying that genuinely, the worst thing I could do to them from my
beliefs was to leave them alone and not try to help them out of their
sickness, not try to extend a hand and not try to show THEM that it
doesnt have to be like this.

 And finally, my subconscious mind [as I now know it to be] accepted
the suggestion; Finally, when I muttered my codeword or ?NLP-
word? as I then termed them, I got the relief I needed, I got all the
benefits of letting go of the hate and feeling sorrow and pity for the
people I had  previously felt hate for in these confrontations.

And I was able to let go of the guilt of not being sure  of whether or
not these people were really trying to get at me or whether I was
being mistaken and precipitating the negative atmosphere or
influence myself; IT DIDNT MATTER. If  they werent doing
anything wrong, my muttering wouldnt do anything to them it would
just make me feel OK. If they WERE doing something wrong, then
they'd get screwed for it and my 'need' for satisfaction and hate was
dissipated. My codeword in either case would make me feel OK and I
was able to forget about most of the petty incidents within a few
seconds, rather than lurching from wound to wound in a hate-filled,
venom-spitting rage as I had done before.

The codewords did not work on serious situations, but I shied back
from using them on them; I realised that if I tried it and it didnt work
on a particular situation that I would be likely to fall prey to the
horrible voice in my head which said to me that I was going to blow
it and I would be back to square one once the words stopped working.
However, by holding back from 'wasting' them on serious situations
that fear never did come true, and I doubt that it really could now
with all the evidence I have of long-term maintainable benefits.

I used my original codeword a *lot* of times. Probably 40,000 -
50,000 utterances by now over a year and a half, and in that whole
time I have only rarely been asked what it means. Said quietly under
one's breath it actually serves to burst peoples' bubbles, their script
behaviours and 'all sorted and satisfied'  look - it's not something
people generally expect and so they dont usually have an assertive or
manipulative built in subconscious reaction for it which they might
for more common solutions.

The question of whether or not it has a subliminal effect I havent
gone into that deeply now since I am no longer using the same
codewords externally; the fear that some people may experience that
it is some kind of occult curse or whatever is I would admit a danger,
since this kind of fear can obsess and damage people's health, but my
solution to this is I think a wonderful one, and I shall get to it
shortly.

After using quite a few of these codeword utterances I realised that I
was being succesful in most instances where I was feeling anger &
hate but not in those where people were laughing at me or just
laughing where I perceived there was some offence towards me, and
particularly where the laughter was continuing for any length of time;

I felt incensed and enraged whenever the slightest hint of ridicule
was directed at me, and I became obsessed with thinking that people
were laughing, sniggering and disapproving of me, talking about me
behind my back and having a hilariously good time analysing and
gloating about each of my faults. I was very, very, profoundly
shocked when I found out that most of them werent.

Sure a few were, but these were the kind of people who would IMO do that
to everyone - I was flabbergasted more than words can say when I
finally realised that most of the laughter, the sarcasm, the use of
humour as a social escape and as a manipulative tool is essentially
false, hollow and an illusion. That my rage and becoming incensed at
it was a reaction to a problem that didnt really exist - it was the huge
affront to my reputation, abilities & self-esteem which  I was
becoming enraged about; I hadnt considered the possibility that this
too was almost entirely within my own head and not in other peoples.

Dale Carnegie relates in his 'How to win friends and influence people'
book how if we do what we think is right, speak the truth and are
meticulously honest, we'll probably get more unfair criticism,
skullduggery and backbiting to contend with than if we lie, con, cheat
and steal  - so heck, says Carnegie, put up the old umbrella, and let it
all trickle away.

IMHO,  Do what you think is right and realise that the criticism,
ridicule and poison you may receive is most likely not real at all; it's
probably in your own head as a reaction to motives, principles and
situations that dont really exist. If one day you are the laughing stock
of the entire country you may feel there's no point going on, that no-one
will ever take you seriously again & that you'll never shake off the
stigma; in actual fact, it generally only takes a few weeks.

People have better things to do than to dedicate their lives to
analysing someone elses faults and trying to entertain ghoulish
mentalities with gloating sarcasm & ridicule; those that dont are
usually projecting their own insecurity onto others because they dare
not face it themselves. The most notable instance of this I can think
of is the British author David Icke who was reported in the media as
having 'claimed to be the Son of God';

Well, five years on Icke is alive and kicking and making more sense
in his books than anything else I have read. It may have taken that
colossal ridicule which he attracted to let him see as Carnegie did
that that ridicule, like hate, is by and large a manufactured ploy by a
few devious, selfish people who either want to prevent a decent and
honest person from enjoying a good reputation, or just want to project
their own insecurity onto someone else.

 I fear the former has been true of those who have done their
damnedest to prevent people from taking Icke seriously,  but the
extent to which they have failed has been encouraging; Icke is going
roung the United Kingdom relentlessly preaching the truth at people
and telling them that it is THEY THEMSELVES who are responsible
for the mad world we see before us; that it is WE who have created
this reality by giving away our ability to think for ourselves and
letting a few manipulators effectively turn us into robots.

Their latest attempt at discrediting him is a series of  ludicrously
unfair allegations of anti-semitism which are so utterly unfounded it
beggars belief:-
[Icke would not know how to be racist if he took a correspondence course,
has Jewish people funding his book and many others supporting him, and
has made it abundantly clear that he is NOT accusing the Jewish people
of a conspiracy, rather a group of manipulators who are trying to
discredit him by trying to associate anyone who says there is a
conspiracy of some kind with anti-semitism. I expect they'll have a go
at me next, despite the fact that a good number of my friends who agree
with me on all this are Jewish, too.]

 You know, I do believe he's right that we have created this mad
world we see around us; But the one thing which Icke has
said which has convinced me more than anything else that he is right
that WE CREATE OUR OWN REALITY is that he has discovered
the one thing which can build a bridge between the manipulator and
the manipulated, the hater and the hated, the gloater and the victim,
the skeptic and the believer, the Christian and the Jew, the Arab and
the Muslim, between  all of us - LOVE CHANGES EVERYTHING,
says David Icke. As I said, I do believe he's right.

The trouble with statements like 'love changes everything' in my
experience is that most people take one look and just feel disgust and
think ' oh no, not another tree-hugger ' or ' Eeech, one of those hippie
types'. They have pictures in their minds of permissive sex and
flower-power. The trouble is in my opinion that MOST PEOPLE
HAVENT GOT A SCOOBY WHAT LOVE REALLY IS.

I didnt; I had never really felt it up till this year. [I'm 25]; I
thought that I must be pretty uncool and subnormal since I'd never really
managed to have that real feeling of love, but I just didnt know what
it was. The way I found out was rather unusual in that I didnt really
expect it to work - but it DID, and I am still trying to slot the
consequences of  that fact into place.

Love is an energy says David Icke, and again I now do believe he's
right; I had become bitter and cynical about it having realised that on
and off over a period of about ten years or so, I would feel amazingly
good whenever I had an influx of something I now term 'romantic
quality';

Loosely speaking I mean by this that my subconscious mind got
convinced that I had done well with some 'qualified' girl. These
incidents - not that many over the ten year period, but some - caused
me to almost change into a different person.

 I now recognise in a description of the symptoms of hypomania
[from Angela Smythe's book  SAD - 'Winter Depression'] the
characteristics of what I term my 'optimum health state'; thinking
faster, articulating well, noticeable physical improvements, better
agility, both mental and physical, a general state of happiness &
spontaneous wit; what I didnt realise before is that I think it's
actually  a reconnection with my higher self, as Icke describes in his
books.

Optimum Health State
--------------------


SHEER OVERWHELMING POWER

-hugely raised immune system
-thinking 3 or more times faster than normal
-higher level understanding of everything; ability to see the big
picture.
-'jumping' with energy
- hugely greater physical control, agility, poise
- hugely greater control over tone and articulation of voice
- huge shift in body language [speed, precision, assertiveness]
- shift in physical appearance, to do with 'all sorted and satisfied'
look
- huge difference in ease of smiling and laughing
- being generally 'happy' all the time
- ability to make and nail down paradigm shifts.

and more than these, the constant sensation of deep, true love.

How did I find out what Love really is then? The full description of
this is in the manual for my 'Hypnomap' computer aided self hypnosis
program, but I shall briefly summarise.

- I realised that true deep spiritual love is a rare occurrence for most
people, and that I was unlikely to be able to get it without
manipulating my way into it and putting my fingers into the pies of
the system to be able to hold onto it.


- I realised that I could have this love after watching the film 'The
Princess Bride'; just that it wasnt very likely.

- I hypnotised myself into a deep trance with the computer and
planted suggestions that I was in deep true love with my ideal
girlfriend, permanent, eternal, deep, true spiritual reciprocated love.

I did this as an experiment but decided to 'go for the jugular' first
time and go for 'the works' with it, since I had realised from my
experience with the codewords the importance of always going for the
best outcome and using all of my energy and resources in warding off
ambushes and trying to influence my mind; it generally took the sum
of my focussed abilities to succeed, and realising that I actually could
have eternal, deep, true spiritual reciprocated love I went for it. When
I actually got it, just like that, it changed my life totally.


The effects were truly incredible'; The sheer overwhelming power of
the feeling under hypnosis was incredible enough, but when I came
out of trance I was jumping with energy, elated, feeling extremely
happy and able to take on the world. I could spontaneously articulate
exactly what I thought about just about anything, and proceeded to
shock and nonplus a lot of people by doing precisely that in
conversation.

My physical appearance changed, I was thinking so much faster than
before that I was able to completely understand and assimilate what
other people were saying and still having time to articulate my own
responses having taken their opinions almost fully into account - this
makes a huge difference in conversation IMO, since most of us are
usually just waiting for our chance to speak and not paying too close
attention to what the other person is really saying.

I planted suggestions that I would calm, relax and my immune
system would rise also; this worked, and the vitamin C powder I take
- I take 3g a day - may well have something to do with the
effectiveness of it. As it was it was supremely effective, and I was in
my 'optimum health' or  high level state for months. I am back in it
again, having had a relapse in the middle, but the fact that I can
reproduce it despite a relapse has been very encouraging to me in my
efforts to signpost the way to achieve it to other people.

What I have realised very recently after reading Icke's latest book is
that I DONT NEED the other codewords any more. I planted a deep
post-hypnotic suggestion to bring the wave of love I feel for my
?partner? at the utterance of her name; this brings such an
overwhelming wave of love that it makes me feel far better even than
I do at the use of my other codewords.

[Note 15th Feb 1996 - there is something more than post-hypnotic
suggestion going on here, of this I am sure now. The book
'The Celestine Prophecy' takes this further, and I heartily recommend
it.]

I have more than the two I have described here now, I have others
which remove the bad feeling one gets from having made a mistake
and not being able to correct it one has to put up with secondary &
resultant problems and bad events. The codeword removes the
compounded negativity & lets me say  'Be willing to have it so' and
'Take the good out of it' to myself; Most of the time a good, happy
attitude to the mess left by a mistake will negate and cushion most of
the effects of it.

Often it can actually improve the situation to better than things might
have been had the incident not occurred; similarly, negativity, doubt,
guilt and fear can often make things far worse than they originally
were and one can find that although the original mess sorts itself out,
one has created problems which wouldnt have been there if one had
just accepted the original occurences.

What I now do is to use my deep true love trigger to channel love into
myself and into other people whenever their is an incident now. Sure
I might use the other codewords as well, but by using love I can let go
of my doubt, my fear, my guilt; It's OK.

Here then is the twist in my tale; Having read 'Timeline therapy and
the basis of personality' by Tad James and Wyatt Woodsmall, I
learned of the incredible discovery they have made. In Timeline
Therapy,  one can affect the clusters of memories which make up our
?personalities? by under deep trance visualising our timeline and
performing NLP techniques on the memories. That the memories are
clumped together in ?Gestalts? means that the effects are more
powerful than just changing one memory, and the knock-on effect
effectively can change one's entire personality.

That James is right about this I have no doubt now, because I have
read quite a lot of the NLP books now and understand how the
techniques work; I have also used them without realising it in what I
described about my codewords, but the question then is 'does it matter
whether it's NLP, or hypnosis, or social compliance, or anything - if
it works, and we are doing something deeper than that which we are
trying to label? I think it doesnt matter for what we are trying to do.
I also think the powerful insights in Steve Parkhill's book
'Answer Cancer, the healing of a nation' should likewise be adopted
by us all since they are *true*, they *work* and they are *powerful*.
I know this to be true from looking at Steve's ideas and seeing them
at work in myself; this is more important than point scoring and
nihilistic academic discussions of things which dont matter to people's
everyday lives.

The paradigm shifts concerning deep true spiritual love though do
matter a great deal though in my opinion, and it is here in Timeline
therapy that I think the overriding key to reconnecting with our
higher selves, achieving  optimum health or achieving true happiness
- whichever label you want to apply to this, the truth will no doubt
remain deeper than I can here articulate - is; however it will remain the
truth, and again in the same way it doesnt matter which of the labels
is completely accurate here so long as we can have the deep true
spiritual love - and we can, and here's how:-

By using timeline therapy we can alter not only the present to
experience  deep, true, spiritual love but we can also alter our
perceptions of the future - our future memories - [since what we think
we are going to be doing in the future has a major effect on our
subconscious mind, and by altering these 'memories' we alter our
personalities in the same way as when we alter 'past' memories]; we
can float back along our timelines and instead of altering situations
and actions in the ways of NLP, even as I have with my codewords,
we can alter them with the love codeword, suggestion or however else
we experience deep true spiritual love, and alter our timelines with
that.


One of the most important changes IMO is that I am no longer at all
afraid of looking stupid, of being usurped, of looking small or of being
fobbed off; I have deep true spiritual love in my heart & it is going to
last; I have no more fear of these things and I can finally now
understand what Icke means when he says 'Love will build a bridge'; It
has built a bridge for me, and I do believe it will build a bridge for
anyone. But we first of all need to know what it is, and then need to
know how to change ourselves so that we attract it as our reality. And
that ability is what Mr Tad James, Mr Steve Parkhill, Mr James
Redfield, Ms Louise Hay and Mr David Icke have given the world - if we
will but use it.

Coming back then to the start of this tale to the 'It's not my fault'
affirmation which I have clung to for so long, it too has finally
crumbled away; the one thing which I held onto like grim death until
now, which poisoned my whole approach to everyone and everything
I met was the gross unfairness built into the dating game, the game of
'love' upon which in my experience most peoples' lives are based. I
use the quotes advisedly since I dont think most people have any
conception of what real love is - I didnt;

 I think most people have been vaccinated on purpose against the real
thing by the collossal influence of the manipulators Icke exposes in
his books, that they have been encouraged and manipulated into
effectively immunising themselves against real, deep, true.,
unconditional, spiritual love by putting their fingers into one or other
of the pies which taint and warp their motives;these fingers-in-the-pie
spoil and limit the extent of their 'love', since one can never feel true
deep love if it one's 'love' is based on selfishness and insincerity

 If one manipulates and dare I say 'speed-seduces' to get it, that love
which one achieves will never be total and unconditionally
reciprocated -because IT'S NOT REALLY YOU THAT (S)HE
LOVES, IS IT.....it's a false picture which has been created.The
ambush of speed-seduction is a double-bind though because if one
does not take on board the truths nailed down by Jeffries in how
people behave so that speed seduction is necessary to overcome the
ambushes and achieve a manipulated love, one gets just as badly
ambushed as one would if one used it.

The key is IMO to realise that this is going on, admit that Jeffries is
essentially correct with what he is saying, but also realise that one
should only go for the one thing which really is qualified rather than
just available- real deep true spiritual love, and that one can have this
without manipulating OR being manipulated if one is aware of the
truth of what is going on. The  falseness of manipulation and
deviousness  spreads like cancer throughout the whole of many
relationships, since if your partner IS in love with a distorted image
of you then how can you really have unconditional love for them
when they have that core ambush; it taints them too, and wrecks the
other side of the bond of 'love', turning it into a sham and vaccinating
both parties against the real thing.

If we sort ourselves out with deep, true spiritual love first, then
there is no need for manipulation, seduction or any of the other webs
of lies we weave.

I wish to quote a speech in closing this, without revealing the source:

 "My dear beloved people of the earth, we have only love.
  Why not say to yourselves:
 "I am worthy of this love; I am capable of understanding that it is
  boundless, and free, and so very very positive" ;

 Love can build a bridge, and the truth shall set you free -

 It's up to you.

 Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk


 </PRE>

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Fri Apr 12 08:31:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: 'Jeffries ideas for nice people' article
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:31:15 +0100

<h1> Jeffries' ideas for 'nice people' </h1>

<PRE>

In over a year of reading these newsgroups, I managed to avoid being
flamed by Ross up until now. I also have held back until now from
setting forth my own true opinions on the scope of Ross's ideas
and the various things he has nailed down.

This isnt a petty tit-for-tat 'get my own back on Ross because he's
flamed me' article, it is rather a considered opinion built up over
some months and which I have held back from posting, for perhaps too
long.

I kept silent as Ross so unfairly and disgracefully flamed Roy Hunter and
others, partly because I wanted to convince Ross that his ideas have this
wider scope; I still hope that he will realise this but perhaps the time
has come for others to carry these ideas forward, where Ross himself
chooses not to.

Herewith....

---

1. I've been incorporating some of  Ross's ideas recently with a great
deal of success not to seduce women  , but rather to get my own mind into
shape so that I dont get fobbed off. manipulated and cheated by the
various ambushes which they use.

I've found that Ross's ideas have a far wider scope than just in
seduction;

In lecturing and dealing with classes of students, I've realised that the
same principles of manipulation, script behaviours and social games
operate in a great many other spheres of life besides the dating game:-

- student - teacher relationships;
- ordinary friendships;
- boss-employee relationships
- peer-peer relationships in
      -school
      -work
indeed, any kind of social interaction at all.

Eric Berne's 'Games People Play', 'What do you say after you say hello'
and 'Sex in Human Loving' are the treasure troves to plunder here IMO,
along with John Cleese and Robin Skynner's
'Families and how to survive them' and 'Life and how to survive it'
books. Cleese is a unique individual in that being possessed of perhaps
the sharpest wit the world has seen [IMO] he has applied the talents
of his humour to write, along with Skynner, the most common sense
description of why people really do what they do, say what they say and
think what they think, that I have seen.

So, realising that the ambushes the women use are prevalent throughout
all of their lives and used by men too, I set to seeing if the speed
seduction techniques could be adjusted and adapted to achieve success
in more 'politically correct' areas of influence, too.

What I discovered was that they can indeed and in fact will work in ALL
the situations I described, yes ALL of them, giving such an overriding
benefit that the ambushes are easily vanquished and usually crumble with
hardly any  effort at all in the face of the techniques.

Am I talking rot with this? No, but my argument has a subtle twist to it.

In John Grinder's words,

"what you are about to read never happened, but it seems reasonable, even
to me."

2. Just under a year ago now, I had a major bad time with a female & got
rather pissed off, depressed & made myself ill over it. I had the chronic
'nice guy' syndrome Ross talked about, and made most of the classic
blunders a man can make in trying to attract a woman. At the time I had
been experimenting with a computer aided self hypnosis program for the
PC, and had recently done a course in hypnotherapy - I realised that my
bad, bad feeling was so overridingly negative that no amount of telling
myself things were OK with the hypnosis was going to work; it had a far
bigger hold on my subconscious mind than any of the recommended
suggestions for a hypnotherapy session. Being a Christian, I was also a
bit wary of diving in and 'hypnotising the heck out of myself' as I knew
that a softly-softly approach wasnt going to work, and if I was going to
remove the depressing influences it would need to be a sledgehammer
approach.

Thinking about this and how annoying it was, I suddenly realised that the
reason this 'problem' - romantic difficulties having a majorly bad effect
on my subconscious mind and health - was not referred to or discussed in
the hypnotherapy course I had done, or in the hypnosis books I read, or
anywhere that I had seen for that matter, was not because it wasnt
important and not because there was nothing hypnosis could do about it,
but rather because no-one had tried it AND then bothered to tell anyone
what happened, or had dared to stick their neck out and teach people the
IMO fact that romantic involvement has a more overriding effect on the
subconcious mind than anything else.

I would probably have dismissed this realisation as foolish speculation
on my part and a meddling with things I had no business meddling with,
had I not at that exact time discovered the flamewar surrounding Ross
Jeffries on the internet; Ross's ideas fascinated me, since I found
truths and cold, hard facts which I had been wrestling with and losing
the fight against for years, expressed in the framework of NLP techniques
which I already understood, but in a down-to-earth no-nonsense way which
I could immediately implement.

The shock of this took a couple  of days to subside, and I did then dive
in and implemented them. However, I applied one further paradigm shift to
Ross's insights - I realised that I could apply them to myself, without a
partner, and sort out my own mind under self hypnosis without needing to
attempt to seduce anyone. If the plan worked, I would free myself from my
own manipulations and the chronic 'nice guy' syndrome, and would then be
able to re-enter the romantic fray with a self-confident attitude.

I DO feel that the ethics of the situation deserve careful treatment
because the criticisms simply do not apply to my own approach. I only
 use hypnosis on myself, have never tried to seduce anyone & have no
intention of doing so; I require that anyone who wishes to use my own
approach learn ordinary self-hypnosis first or receive a kick-start from
a good therapist.

I expect it will turn out that the real motivation behind some of the
criticism of hypnosis, NLP, SS and my own ideas is not ethical
considerations at all but rather the wish to discourage technical
creativity and mental advancement indited by the Reece Committee report
and described chillingly in the 'Silent Weapons for a Quiet War'
document. Why? Because the skeptics, & their masters would rather people
didnt find out about their own manipulations and that they have
deliberately tried to vaccinate the entire population of the world
against real deep true spiritual love by maintaining the pretence that
manipulation, deviousness and lying are not the real  rulers of our lives
and relationships.

[I am not for a minute suggesting that there is a conspiracy to discredit
Jeffries, he hardly needs one - but the ambushes he has exposed are
very real, and I am indeed suggesting that these manipulators would
try to prevent their demise. 'True Love Changes Everything', IMO - but
only if you arent prevented from finding out what it is or from
expressing it once you find it. ]

In the hypnotherapy course I did  ethical and professional behaviour had
featured highly. but nothing was said about the emotion of love under
trance and references to affecting it hypnotically were made only by
inferring that this and a range of other ideas were things which no
scrupulous therapist would do with a client. I have a great deal of
respect for my teacher and found the course superb, but long having had
a hearty contempt for the real motives and truths behind such
taboos, I set about thinking about whether using self-hypnosis to alter
the effect of romantic involvement on my subconscious mind and
'immune system' would be 'ethically sound', feasible and immediately
practically applicable. I came to the following conclusions:-

- It is perfectly ethical to use self-hypnosis to address one's OWN
romantic feelings; all the taboos and no-no's surrounding love and such
emotions in therapy are from a purely professional standpoint. One can
hardly end up in a compromising situation with oneself!

- With the 'helper' self-hypnosis program I had an immediately
practically applicable means to hypnotise myself and implant suggestions
to effect whatever changes I wanted, were I to decide they were feasible.
- Being somnambulistic, I was able to get into a deep trance with the
program very easily and the relaxing power of it quickly had me hooked.

- The feasibility was the difficult bit. Could I  through hypnosis
overturn the power of the romantic instinct and raise my immune system
despite my woeful state? Could I overpower the hugely negative and
depressing feelings which were weighing my down? I came to the conclusion
that I could not.

- However, I then had a brainwave. One of my favourite films is 'The
Princess Bride', a film which tells a fairy tale the way it really might
have been rather than spouting the usual 'Pollyanna crap' as Ross would
put it . Long cynical about love and relationships, I had thought before
watching this that true love was an illusion, a lie, a fool's castle made
of sand. After seeing it I changed my mind and conjectured that 'true
love' was possible, but just not very likely and certainly not very
likely to happen to me. In the film, the bad guy has a
line that goes "You truly love each other. And so you might have been
truly happy; Not one couple in a century has that chance, no matter what
the story books say. "

I think this is true, actually; I think true love IS a real phenomenon,
but that it doesnt happen very often and certainly wasnt going to happen
to me had I maintained my previous thought patterns.

Anyway, after thinking about this and realising that it WAS possible for
me to feel real deep true love, I thought to myself 'Right - if I'm going
to have a go at this I'm going to have to go for the jugular first time.
These badfeelings are deep, strong and they're not going to entertain a
meagre attempt to dislodge them. I'm going to have to go for the most
powerful suggestions I can think of'.

Now, had I not encountered Ross's evidence, I would likely not
have been sufficiently sure that doing this was ethically sound; my old
picture of romantic relationships was a stifled, chronic nice-guy
syndrome sham which I had convinced myself was the truth and the only way
things could be to make myself feel better as I wallowed in my self-pity,
and I actively wanted any supposed way out of my depressive rut to be
unethical so that I could jealously condemn anyone who threatened my
'It's not my fault' affirmation as being immoral or unethical. It took a
lot to pull me out of that self-perpetuating rut, as I described in my
recent 'Love Changes Everything' article, and without the cold hard facts
nailed down by Ross I dont think I would have made it.

However, make it I did - I told myself under deep trance that:-

- I am deeply in love
- I am deeply in love with my ideal girlfriend, modelled on fantasies of
yesteryear
- that she loves me back the same
- that it is permanent, reciprocated, eternal
- that we love each other to the core, nothing hidden, and that nothing
will ever change that
- that she is gorgeous, beautiful, witty, charming, simply wonderful; and
that she thinks the same of me
- that I will go deeper and deeper in love, and will feel it all the
time, awake and asleep, in trance and out of it
- that my immune system will keep rising and rising
- that nothing can hurt my love; that negative thoughts will dissipate
and not get through; that even if I think negative thoughts they will
have no effect
- that I will always be in deep true love
- a post-hypnotic suggestion linked to her name which brings the wave
of love I felt at the height of the trance; I use this in trance as well
to bootstrap with, and to cause hugely positive mental shifts in any
circumstance.
- a post-hypnotic suggestion to remove the 'broken record' negative
thought trap whereby one sometimes will not stop thinking about something
negative.
Using this usually dissipates the negative thought-train in seconds:
'peace'
- a bootstrap post hypnotic suggstion to bring me down into trance
rapidly-
' back down now'.  Used multiple times it is very effective.

When I came out of the trance, I felt *wonderful*. Jumping with energy,
thinking three times faster than before and just somehow knowing the
answers to many things which had previously perplexed me. Playing the
piano with six finger chords where I had before struggled to get the
melody right; Holding forth in company and conversation where before I
shied away and did not enjoy such interaction; nonplussing people with my
new-found insight and exhibiting all the symptoms described below as my
optimum health state.

SHEER OVERWHELMING POWER
-hugely raised immune system
-thinking 3 or more times faster than normal
-higher level understanding of everything; ability to see the big
picture.
-jumping with energy
-hugely greater physical control, agility, poise
-hugely greater control over tone and articulation of voice
-huge shift in body language [speed, precision, assertiveness]
-shift in physical appearance, to do with 'all sorted and satisfied' look
-huge difference in ease of smiling and laughing
-being generally 'happy' all the time
-ability to make and nail down paradigm shifts.

COMBINATORIAL PROOF
Ever heard of SAD or Seasonal Affective Disorder? Well I had... and
it sounded as though I might have it, when I read the book about a
year back.It mentioned states of elation and depression, and I shall
quote directly from the description of the mania state:-

[Winter Depression by Angela Smythe: Chapter 14, Spring Fever.
Page entitled Recognise the symptoms of mania:-
You feel full of energy, confidence and new ideas, you feel you could
take on the world.

You talk fast, holding forth in company, you make jokes and are witty.

You rush about doing things, you start many projects but dont finish
any of them.

You feel irritated by anyone who does not keep up or who tries to slow
you down

You are disinhibited; you say things which may be embarassing or
hurtful to others without thinking.

You have grandiose ideas about yourself and your abilities

You form new relationships with people you wouldnt normally get on
with.

You look for sexual excitement, a new partner or an affair.

You go to bed late, and wake early.

You dont eat much.

You spend lots of money, regardless of whether you can afford it.
end of quoted passage]

And this is supposed to be a disease????? I read this page with
amusement at first which turned to disbelief when I realised what had
happened, which revelation I have now managed to nail down beyond
reasonable doubt. This isnt describing mania at all, or if it is then
'mania in this caseis in fact just good old optimum health, rearing it's
head in response tosunlight stimulation of the immune system,
subconscious quality & perhaps other causes. There's a presupposed
theme of negativity in the descriptions above - see how I would
describe them in myself, bearing in mind that I'm like this all the time
due to being able to produce the same state of high subconscious
quality and raised immune system:-

You feel full of energy, confidence and new ideas, you feel you could
take on the world. -  Well yes... you do have lots of energy, you do get
the confidence which you ought to have and yes you CAN take on the
world.

You talk fast, holding forth in company, you make jokes and are
witty.

Thinking at least 3 times faster than before IMO, and being able
to come up with jokes accordingly since you have time to think in the
pauses of conversation. Since you can check and refine what you say a
couple of times before saying it and still appear to be replying
spontaneously, you seem sophisticated and witty when you are just
thinking faster than your conversation partner. But this is one of these
unfair uses of the word 'just' - thinking a little faster than the other
makes a huge difference since you effectively control the conversation
and get all the benefit out of it; since we are usually all just waiting
for our chance to speak anyway IMO, this allows us to actually
consider what the other person says [even better if you have a personal
stereo recorder] as well as getting our two penniesworth in. And if we
feel like making jokes, not only do we have time to construct them
before appearing to come out with them spontaneously - which is IMO
crucial -but we can understand why they are actually funny in the first
place by having time for combinatorial thought as well.

You rush about doing things, you start many projects but dont finish
any of them.

Well yes, if you have a useless filing system - because
you come up with lots of deep realisations and fundamental ideas
which could change your life and bootstrap the good feelings, but
which are stifled and forgotten by our rigid sequential habits, terrible
abuse of our brains and memories and the hugely limiting straight
jackets of social quality, disqualification* and all the other ambushes
which prevent paradigm shifts being made. I would be very surprised
indeed if I managed to finish a project without it spawning new and
larger ones in the process these days.

You feel irritated by anyone who does not keep up or who tries to
slow you down

Again, yes- except what Smythe fails to mention is
that this includes almost everyone, and that people will tend to do
almost anything to slow you down or avoid acknowledging that you're
better than 'normal' at what you're doing. That Le Chatelier's
principle of equilibrium - that the system will shift to negate the
effect of any change in balance - applies very well to any attempt at
social recognition, and that the truth of whether or not someone really
is thinking faster and feeling better is usually the last thing
considered.

In fact, it's more than likely IMO that people will say you're suffering
from mania! And they're right, of course...  it's just that it's the
negative facial expressions, tone's of voice and social pressure are the
overriding factor, when in fact in the cold light of day if this effect
is 'just' 'mania', then 'mania' is the best thing since sliced bread IMO.

"You are disinhibited; you say things which may be embarassing or
hurtful to others without thinking."

 Hmmm... maybe, yes- but
mostly as a symptom of annoyance from the realisation that one's
newfound abilities are neither acknowledged nor welcome. And it
is entirely likely that these 'embarassing' or 'hurtful' statements
are symptomatic of a naive attempt at being honest-the greatest
sin against political correctness of them all.

You have grandiose ideas about yourself and your abilities;

They're
only grandiose if they're pie-in-the-sky and wishful thinking.  Usually
they're actually less grand than just the truth about one's full
potential IMO -but because people will do almost anything to stop someone
from wising up and developing their skills anyway, this is a self-
fulfilling prophecy; I guess the ideas are 'grandiose' if one is naive
enough to think that one will be given a fair hearing and chance to
develop one's skills.

You form new relationships with people you wouldnt normally get
on with. Yes, because you 'qualify' in a lot more people's eyes - your
new abilities are attractive and useful. Similarly people who would
have threatened you before are much easier to get on with since one
bypasses the disqualification barrier.

You look for sexual excitement, a new partner or an affair. No
comment!

You go to bed late, and wake early. Yes, because you have more
energy & dont need so much sleep.

You dont eat much."I dont seem to compulsively eat as much - I dont
have chocolate wrapper mountains any more.

You spend lots of money, regardless of whether you can afford
it.

Guilty, but it's usually to fuel one's paradigm shifts; I've spent a lot
on computer stuff and popular psychology books. I think there is a
danger that you get carried away though.

The point then, is that the optimum health state I describe has been
described fairly accurately as the hypomania stage of SAD; and yet I
can have it permanently and as a normal state of health, rather than
a druglike high. I fear that the whole idea of SAD has been victim to a
core level ambush, in that it is not just a strange reaction to light
with highs and lows; it's rather that sufferers are experiencing a series
of periods of lowered subconscious quality, and are sometimes coming up
to near optimum health due to sunlight stimulating their immune
systems through subconscious quality.

The tragedy of it is that the
existing model does not indicate this, and that most sufferers will not
realise that they can be cured via raising the immune system
artificially through hypnosis, and generating optimum health - which
should be normality, and is not a 'mania' or other form of illness - all
year round. However, the fact that the SAD book has nailed down the
very benefits I have produced myself through hypnosis and given them
in an IMO beyond reasonable doubt proof of the associated traits has
allowed me to nail down the validity of what I have been saying with a
combinatorial proof, and for that at least I am very grateful. As a
parting shot on SAD, I would say we are all sufferers - as indeed we
are of non-optimum health until we have achieved control of
subconscious quality.

[* I talk about 'quality' a lot, I mean Robert Pirsig's idea of what
motivates people to do anything:-

biological quality
supercedes social quality
supercedes intellectual quality
dynamic quality
static quality

- I have added 'subconscio

For an understanding of this, read Pirsig's superb book 'Lila' .]

Some of these effects are circumstantial, in that if one is thinking
faster than someone else one is far more likely to be able to use
judgement and control over one's words, body language, tone of voice
etc. and hence the effects and impression one creates are likely to be
vastly different - hence some of these effects are merely byproducts of
the others. But this is exactly my point - all these things are merely
byproducts of the level of ?subconscious quality? perceived by the
subconscious mind. And to kid oneself on that one can achieve them
without considering ?romantic quality?  is IMO the biggest social
quality ambush of them all.

Now I've been saying the above for a while now; what I havent so
far said clearly enough I think is that I think it is entirely necessary
to have an appreciation of the ambushes, techniques and facts which
Jeffries has nailed down in order for one to know what real
unconditional love actually is, and to be able to get the benefits of the
optimum health state all the time rather than at the whim of an intended
partner. ; I know only too well that  the ambushes Jeffries describes
exist - I fell victim to those used by the women for going on ten years,
and was effectively vaccinated by them against real love-  and now having
achieved ?optimum health? I find myself being also the walking proof that
his techniques work too.

Not because I am going round manipulating people [I'm not] and not even
because I am now getting lots of women into bed - but because I have now
been able to understand what real deep true spiritual love is and that
those who manipulate into a relationship can also be just as badly
vaccinated against true love as those who get prevented from getting a
relationship in the first place.

You see, I think it's one of these 'double-bind' situations I keep going
on about where you seem to be 'damned if you do and damned if you
dont'; If you just try and be a nice guy you dont get fed says Ross -
yes, I agree from my own miserable experience of the dating game and from
all the other pieces of evidence I have which point to this being true.
If you use Ross's techniques then you can get fed ?  yes, I agree with
that too. But I no longer *want* to get fed in that way; I have feelings
of deep, true love planted  in my mind which have caused my optimum
health state, reconnection, whatever you want to call it. But without
admitting that Ross is right about the ambushes both men and women use to
manipulate each other with and that my deprivation from and vaccination
against real true love was as much my fault as that of the women I used
to blame it on, I would have kept on lying, conning, cheating and
stealing and bitching about how unfair life is. I would have kept on
trying to manipulate women into going out with me and within those
relationships being false and dishonest for fear of bursting the image
she fell in love with. And this is the crux of my
argument -

"if you manipulate to get love, whether you're a man or a woman, you
set up a false picture in your partner's mind of what you are; they fall
in love with someone who looks a bit like you, apparently has the same
name as yuu, but it's not really you they're 'in love' with. And if they
find that out... well, maybe they'll realise that they 'dont love you any
more'. Or maybe the falseness of the 'love' will prevent it from giving
the sheer overwhelming power of true spiritual love which can cause
the effects I've described as my optimum health state."

So am I claiming to have found the secret of love? Good grief, no. I am
merely reporting what I have seen in myself, in others and in the world
in general and inviting others to examine the cold hard facts themselves.

And so, I hope I have communicated my position on this clearly. I
believe that Ross has indeed nailed the golden goose with his
techniques but that we do not need to use them, rather to assimilate the
paradigm shifts and facts into our own experience and lives. We need
to examine -men and women equally, and I'm not just saying that to
pay lip service to it - whether we know what real love is, have felt the
power and reaped the benefits. I am not suggesting that if people have
manipulated their way into a relationship, however extensively, that
they necessarily need to abandon it and do what I have done.

In fact I reckon
having experienced any kind of love it's probably easier to morph that
into spiritual love than starting from my own position of sheer
ignorance; my idea of 'common ground' says that people dont need to
throw away their previous experience and make huge leaps of faith to
set themselves free from lies and manipulation; all they really need to
do IMO is examine which things one learns are incontrovertibly true in
one's own experience, and accept those rather than playing games of
censorship, disqualification and paradigm maintaining. It really isnt
IMO that hard to find evidence that Jeffries is right about particular
points which are not just convincing, but axiomatically true, so true
it's a joke and so patently obvious to anyone who honestly examines the
facts [over a period of time and keeping notes of real-world situations]
rather than relying on other people's opinions. And it's damned good
practice too for identifying lies and manipulations in all the other
areas of our lives, as well.

Am I proposing Ross as the Messiah then? No, of course I'm not. I dont
know if he realises or even cares whether the things I've said here
are true or not, and he hasnt been terribly enthusiastic about my
ideas so far. This said, David Pascal has shown an insight and a
profound understanding of the principles in the most informative series
of articles I  - and I actually think the whole net - have yet seen;

By admitting that some things are incontrovertibly true beyond
reasonable doubt - in any field, not merely Jeffries ideas -  one can
realise that one doesnt have to throw away one's principles, one's
morals, or make any leaps of faith which one is going to find hard to
justify to one's peers, oneself or any of the guardians of social quality
[Robert Pirsig's idea] ; all one has to do is realise the following
'algorithmic decision making criteria':-

" paradigm shifts such as those proposed by Jeffries are not actually
leaps of faith; they are merely describing something we already know
at the dynamic quality level, but werent previously sufficiently sure of
to be able to iron out the contradictions, inconsistencies and
implications of the facts and hence we shy away from propagating the
evidence, the insights and the intuitive leaps into our other knowledge.

In accepting them once we realise this we are only changing our minds
or reneging on promises and values at the social quality level, not
at the dynamic or intellectual quality levels - the fear which prevents
us from making these shifts is therefore by and large unfounded."

 In cataloguing these and making
the paradigm shifts [ with some help from David Icke and Celestine] I
have been able to understand and experience true spiritual love AND set
myself free from the manipulation. Now if that isnt the best answer to
the speed seduction double bind one could ever find, I'll eat my shorts.

And Ross, this isnt a flame either - I just think you ought to be saying
these things yourself.

My next will be on the hypnosis and NLP perspectives of the book 'Brain
Sex', by Anne Moir and David Jessel.
It's quite a read.

Cheers

Steve Murray


Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

</PRE>

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Fri Apr 12 08:32:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: 'Computer Aided Self Hypnosis' article
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 21:32:34 +0100

<PRE>



Computer Aided Self-Hypnosis  (CASH)
----------------------------

1. Intro
2. How it works
3. Speed-reviewing on the PC
4. Author's view
5. Future developments
6. References


Introduction
------------

Ten years ago the PC could have been likened to an expensive typewriter or
a calculator with graphics; Although there have been many attempts to
use it as a direct mental aid over the years, these projects have invariably
been thwarted by a lack of speed, storage, graphics quality & the limited
distribution & ownership of hardware & software. In the last two years
there has been a revolution in all these areas, and the cybernetic
age has dawned.

Computer based speed-reading or 'Photo-reading' is now a reality, with
achievable speeds of up to 690,000 words per minute. Understanding of the
subconscious mind's ability to process 2 Million pieces of information per
second & the operation of the left-brain & right-brain during the information
dump has opened exciting new possibilities for assimilation of information
& accelerated learning. [from documentary by UK hypnotist Paul McKenna]

In self-hypnosis, the PC has an application which has been waiting for it
for decades. In heterohypnosis, the client has the full benefit
of the therapist's experience, the luxury of being able to sit back
& relax fully & the security of knowing that the therapist can & will
intervene however much it is necessary to keep the session on course.
In self-hypnosis, one can sorely miss these advantages. The PC can now
give enough of them to the self-hypnotist to make a real improvement in
trance depth, speed of induction & take a great deal of the work off
of the human's shoulders.

Powerful though it is, CASH is not a magic wand - it works best if used
as a supplement to normal self-hypnosis & preferably guidance from a good
therapist; Unfortunately people can view it as they might a computer game
& not having read the instructions, get no-where & conclude that it &
all hypnosis isn't worthwhile. CASH should not be used as anyone's first
experience of hypnosis, but rather as a means to 'get back down' to an
already achieved level of trance where effective suggestions can be given;
it's highly beneficial for one's long-term success with CASH to have a
good random-access presuppositional post-hypnotic suggestion implanted
prior to using it, which can be used to rapidly deepen trance in say
5-10 minutes rather than an initial half-hour induction which might otherwise
be needed. By far the best way of achieving this is to visit a good
hypnotherapist & obtain the benefit of their experience, wisdom & advice
for one's first induction which are worth their weight in gold.


How it works
------------
CASH uses a simple rectangle-based 'hypnospiral' effect to trick the brain into
trance. Concentric rectangles are displayed on the screen starting from the
border, until there is only a small box remaining in the centre of the
screen unfilled. These rectangles are then overwritten with the background
colour in the same order, again starting from the border, until they have
all been erased. At this point a two or three word suggestion phrase is
flashed up in the box in the centre of the screen. This whole process
usually takes between half a second to a second, depending on the speed
setting. The effect sets up a paradox for the left-brain between seeing
a tunnel effect, with squares flying off into the distance, and seeing
the 'real' drawing which is of course just concentric rectangles. This
has the same effect as the 'hypnospiral' device hypnotists may use to
aid an induction, whereby one looks into a rotating spiral drawing &
can see a similar paradox.

The left brain is essentially tricked into trance by the effect & there is
a strong influence to focus on the words in the centre of the box, which
comprise the induction. A tone from the PC speaker can also be played, timed
to coincide with the flashing up of each suggestion.

To deepen trance during the induction the following devices are used:-

- the tone gradually deepens in pitch, with suggestions to 'follow it down
deeper and slower' used to provide an automatic trance-deepener.

- the whole effect itself gradually slows as the induction progresses,
coupling with suggestions to slow breathing & go down deeper and slower;
this provides another automatic trance-deepener.

- post-hypnotic suggestions to quickly come down to the previously attained
trance depth can be used. 'Bootstrap' post-hypnotic suggestions can also
be used, viz. those which deliberately produce the effects of deep trance
at the beginning of the induction with a view to speeding up descent
into deep trance; particularly effective in this regard are suggestions to
immobilise & numb one's body during the induction.

After the induction phase is over, the suggestion phase can be used to
implant suggestions pre-programmed by the user. The Ericksonian technique
of using these throughout the induction as well can be particularly effective
if the induction & suggestions are deliberately matched.




Speed-reviewing on the PC
-----------------------
Speed-reading whilst in trance can be achieved via the PC even in a
deep or somnambulistic trance since no page-turning is necessary; the
program can be set up to seamlessly perform induction-suggestions-speed-read
phase. Recall of information speed-read in is not verbatim, but one will
just 'know' some of the answers to questions on material read.

A potent application of this is to review one's own material rather than
other peoples'; the British author Tony Buzan has outlined the astonishing
fact that those who review information after 10 mins, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week,
1 month, 1 year will recall ~75% of it permanently in their long term memory,
whilst those who do not will forget 80% of the content permanently within
24 hours. However, most people [including myself] who realise this don't
do anything about it, because the workload required to review everything
 in this way is daunting. This is tragic, since the difference it would
 make is clearly immense; perhaps CASH can now offer a solution.

By using Buzan's mind-mapping technique to take notes & using the
Radiant Thinking techniques outlined in 'The Mind Map Book' & 'Use Your Head',
one can drastically reduce the cost of doing these reviews. However, the
paper mountain is still likely to be prohibitive; With computer mind-mapping,
we can finally have everything nicely at our cross-referenced finger tips.
By maintaining a database of computer mind-maps, one can essentially
'cheat' by doing one's reviews as follows:-

1. Each time one adds a new mind-map, perform a cross-reference with all
the other mind-maps in the database which are related. A primitive
implementation of this is to pull out those which contain the same words.

2. Add these mind-maps to a list of those to speed-read

3. Use a CASH session to speed-read the whole map collection;

This system essentially releases one from having to review information
put into the database normally, since it is done for free when one adds
new information.

4. Periodic speed-reviews of the entire database can be used
to review those which arent being pulled out in normal runs.


Benefits of CASH versus normal self-hypnosis
--------------------------------------------

CASH performs a 'direct' induction, allowing the conscious mind to be free of
the induction script and perhaps to devise workarounds to particular problems
which may occur, e.g. blinking, scratching, negative thoughts etc.

After a few sessions, one does not need CASH to be able to achieve deep
trance quickly; for those who have difficulty in memorising, it's also very
hard NOT to learn the induction by heart after a lot of sessions.

'Sync'- using a modular induction, i.e. one which repeats the same phrases
again and again, one doesnt need to worry about falling out of sync
since one will be back on track at the beginning of the next module. By
carefully making sure there are no phrases in the induction which depend
on others having been already acted on, the automatic trance deepening
influence of the hypnospiral effect, the falling tone & the slowing of the
whole program as one 'goes down', synchronising is made unnecessary. This
can be particularly helpful to people who are stifled in their self hypnosis
attempts by falling out of sync with a tape or their own suggestions.

One is empowered to address one's own innermost private problems and
encapsulate one's own paradigms and beliefs in the suggestions rather than
someone elses. The explosion in popular psychology books & knowledge
of the mind shows no sign of abating, & CASH allows one to implement
one's own paradigm shifts in an induction without generating ethical
problems. Some examples:-

boosting the immune system using vitamin C powder combined with direct
suggestions;
subliminal tapes / baroque music / light therapy combined with CASH;
speed-reading / mind-mapping applications combined with CASH;

None of these things pose ethical problems if done with CASH, but might
pose difficulties for a therapist not sharing the same views as the
client on the advisability of these pursuits.

Somnambulism - CASH can produce a somnambulistic trance in those able to
achieve this depth of hypnosis. The plenary trance may be achievable
as the technological advances continue , using voice trained recognition,
biofeedback & virtual reality combined with the PC; in fact it's probably
feasible with existing technology.

'Rhubarb' principle; By automating all the 'donkey-work' of an induction
& using subtle trance deepeners, one can remove the effect of one's
state of mind prior to the induction on it's success;
Termed the 'rhubarb* principle' this is the criteria that even if the user sits
and thinks and mumbles about rhubarb throughout the entire induction there
is still a good chance they'll get hypnotised. This takes the pressure off
of people who's terror at messing things up invariably causes them to do
just that, and allows them to relax in the knowledge that they cant do
anything wrong, fall out of sync, fail to comply etc.[It is highly advisable
to get an experienced therapist to implant such positive attitudes beforehand
so as not to have to encounter these fears at all.]

* [The word 'rhubarb' is frequently used by actors to give the sound of
conversation whilst on stage. Having to think of interesting things to
say could take their minds off of their lines & detract from their
concentration, when all that is really needed is the apparent sound
of conversation. Repeated mumbling of the word 'rhubarb' to each other
achieves this rather well;

The illustration in terms of CASH here is that
the user doesnt need to do anything other than sit there and watch the
screen. Normally they would have to think of the induction script &
keep their mind focussed on trance deepening & their suggestions; Mumbling
rhubarb constantly wouldnt achieve much in the way of trance. With CASH one
can quite happily sit there mumbling 'rhubarb' to oneself &  still
get hypnotised due to the automatic trance deepeners & the hypnospiral
effect. This in itself takes the pressure off since if one can do that,
then there is no need to worry about messing up the induction or falling
out of sync etc, and one can use one's conscious mind for positive effect
during the induction without fear of messing up.]

Author's view
-------------

My own experience of CASH began with the HELPER self-hypnosis program;
by boosting my immune system directly & also by taking vitamin C powder
as recommended by Dr Linus Pauling, my health drastically improved to the
level I now term 'optimum health'.

    Immune system has fundamental effect on speed of thought, health,
    happiness, intelligence, articulation, confidence,assertiveness, to
    physical noticeable manifestation in manner, attitude and even pheromones.

    Maintainable and no-cost state; not a damaging drug-induced high.
    In fact 'normal' states of lowered health are the damaging, neural
    connection breaking and long-term problem causing acute mental shifts.

    Should be the norm and departures into particular problems should
    be seen as illness, not coming back to normal.

    Attempting to improve peoples' health without affecting immune response
    like offerring chalk and rests in the absence of the cue.


I don't think it would have been nearly as effective if I
hadnt learned hypnotherapy & read a lot of hypnosis & self-hypnosis
books to find out exactly what's going on - the knowledge of exactly
what I'm doing is crucial IMO to my confidence and willingness to comply
with my own suggestions.

My own 'Hypnomap' program is available as GNU freeware - it is an ongoing
project, but currently the hypnosis functions are good enough to produce
the effects I have described. The mind-mapping & speed-reading aspects
are shortly being upgraded from their current very basic implementation.

The original 'HELPER' program is available too, this does not allow one to
slow it down for faster machines but is integrated into one package.

For both programs I strongly recommend reading Thomas Cox's excellent
shareware book 'The Pilgrim's Guide to Hypnosis', also available on the web.

[For how to get these see references ]


References
----------

Paul McKenna's documentary on hypnosis for UK TV;

Autohypnosis, Ronald Shone [Thorsons, 1986];

Hypnomap & Combinatorial Psychology, Steve Murray 1995 [GNU freeware]

'HELPER' self hypnosis program, Leslie Schmit 1988     [shareware]

Pilgrim's Guide to Hypnosis, Thomas Cox, 1995 [shareware]

alt.hypnosis archives at hypnosis.com

Web addresses:-

Pilgrim's Guide to hypnosis         http://www.freenet.ufl.edu/~hypnosis
Hypnosis home page (everything!)    http://www.hypnosis.com
Steve Murray's page                 http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~murrays/
Hypnomap program                    gopher://ftp.dcs.gla.ac.uk/users/murrays/
lots of programs                    gopher://hypnosis.com/pub

The usenet newsgroup alt.hypnosis is also a very useful source of information.

Future developments
--------------------

The future for computer hypnosis holds exciting possibilities; the integration
of speed-reading, mind-mapping, large-scale information retrieval &
cross-referencing via the World Wide Web & CD-Roms, Combined TV-quality
interactive video & audio, voice trained recognition & optical character
recognition, the list goes on... combining all these is feasible with present
technology & the mind boggles to think what will happen in just a few years
time with the ever advancing speed & power of the machines. Yours going
'back down now' ....

Steve Murray



</PRE>

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 12 08:35:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:35:26 -0600

Kyra,

        Pleased to meet you!

>I appreciate Pirsig's books (Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance,
>Lila)...

        Other books I find interesting are those by Thomas Moore (CARE OF
THE SOUL and SOUL MATES), Umberto Eco (Foucault's Pendulum & Brotherhood of
the Rose), and books discussing meditation.

>I like the repartee here, and the general quality that is so deficient now
>on the net -- an ability to create art with words instead of believing
>that the net (every part of the net) should be open to any and everything.
        Ah! A reference to QUALITY ... I've come to much the same
conclusions and have now unsubscribed to most of my other lists. This one
shows much promise and so I am willing to invest more of myself in the list.

>If you are looking for a lurker to this list, I can be that.
>
>If you are looking for a participant, I would enjoy being that.

        And the group grows by another who values and cherishes the
community of authentic/genuine dialogue.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 12 08:35:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Structure
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:35:50 -0600

Hi Walter,

        Just a few thoughts about structure.  But, before I mention them, I
want to confirm your metaphor of a *mall*.  Perhaps I can add to it with the
sidewalk cafe as found in Europe (Paris), those little windows to a passing
world in which our peers of a not-so-distant past sat and commented to each
other and built their canvases of words and oil.  One problem with this
metaphor however, is the lack of potential interactivity between those
passing by and those listening, watching, lurking.

>It does not bother me that people read & do not write on this list --
>to add to our list of list metaphors -- this one is the mall -- not
>everyone shops -- but the foot traffic is great.  A great place to
>meet and lurk!  Do a bit of people watching.


>However:  I am
>interested in developing on line "groups" where there is tight
>structuring & fixed numbers -- where people agree to abide by the
>structures of the group -- such as responding to the facilitator /
>leader's prompts -- eg:  Lets hear from everyone about one feeling &
>one thought that comes up as you face the screen & think of this
>group.

        Can we try this? I, too, feel that this is possible. However, I
think that those who don't form part of this group could be allowed to lurk.
The game process showed this interaction between Charles and Steven, however
I did notice that I did speak up at one point, and that you did the same.
Did that influence the dynamics of the game in a negative sense?  in a
positive sense (any comment from either Steven or Charles?)?

        It would be an ideal time to experiment with *group* work.  Please
include me in the process.

>I have participated in an on
>line reading group that IMHO suffered from a lack of structure -- and
>hence ground to a halt.  It could happen here, though I doubt it will
>as _whatever happens_ it is always on topic to discuss what is or is
>not happening !

        Structure is important.  Commitment is important.  Focus is
important.  And, as you mentioned, dialogue as it happens within these
contexts, is always on topic.

        About topics, what about dream work, a game, or focused discussion
on a particular author/book?

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 12 08:35:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER Re: A friend goes digital
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:35:58 -0600

Hello Regina,

        Pleased to be one of those who welcomes you to Psyberia.  You
mention in one of your posts:

RG>By way of introduction, I maintain a web site that is devoted to
RG>emotional wellness and provides as a data base of resources relevant to
RG>mental health issues, as well as a literary zine focused on emotional
RG>issues.

        I will make sure to visit your site in the near future as it does
sound interesting.

RG>I had hoped to lurk a while a first to get a feel for the discussion,
RG>and don't really have a starting discussion.

        Perhaps you'd like to download the recent archives to see where
we've been since the expansion to this list on March 26th. If you'd like to
have these archives, just give me a shout and I'll forward them. I do think
that we've some interesting threads in the web of our discussions.

        Again, welcome to our world.

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 12 08:36:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:36:05 -0600

MK>a list is the primary form of a seminar - a sowing device
MK>Responses are like seedlings - dialogs are loving acts of gardening
MK>(perhaps each other)...

Mila,

        I love your imagery!  Who would have thought that serious discussion
regarding the psychology of a list/listserv could be so well expounded upon
by poetic prose?

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 12 08:36:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language and communities
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 14:36:16 -0600

Marah (and Psyberfolk),

        Letters such as Marah's cause me to worry a bit.  I do know what
silence does and understand the hurt and pain that comes with the silence
(Mila, you expressed this well in your response to Marah).  I try to be
inclusive in my participation here, but I don't respond to all posts,
especially if my life on this side of the screen is busy.  Please do know,
Marah, that your presence is a welcome event for me.

MR>This ego stroking session is taking place because I have posted to this
MR>list and no one has bothered to respond or include me (why should i not
MR>lurk if this is the treatment I get?).   Is my material not interesting
MR>enough? Are you not seeing my posts amongst the other 20-30 per day.  Do
MR>you not understand words under 9 sylables? ;) I know it must be
MR>something. If you want to know why I lurk , it's because I try to make
MR>contact and I am not engaged.

        Yes, I did get your post of April 8 (a lurker speaks), and I'm glad
that this list is a place in which you want to be lurking and/or speaking.

MR>Isn't it true that part of community building is the formation of
MR>language?  I love hearing all the internet and psyber and psycho bable.

        Every dialogue, every conversation is a restructuring of language.
We recreate language as we clarify, negotiate, and build new metaphors to
arrive at a semblance of understanding --- a communion.

MR>If we insist that evceryone use plain simple english (american
MR>or english or whatever other language of choice) then we flatten our
MR>landscape. (is gentrify the right word)

        Simple English (or French for that matter) is the most difficult
language to use of all the choices open to us. It may take more words as one
of our colleagues here has pointed out (who?), or it may not. What it does
demand that we speak clearly, honestly.

MR>Is there possibly a way that we can celebrate our diversity and also not
MR>lose half the people out there?   (several times posts have gone way
MR>over my head. Little by little I understand more of what is going on
MR>by referencing and by sheer immersion)

        I don't think we can take on the responsibility for the choices
others make.  If one follows the threads here, one sees an incredible
diversity in both tenor and tone.  There are individuals who find a smaller
group *within* for which they have an affinity.  Diversity is present and
alive.  Those who chose to leave have reasons that are created by themselves
and not by this group.  I have yet to hear anyone to tell another to leave
no more to return.  Silence on the part of a lurker is a choice made by the
lurker.  Taking the courage to give the voice its moment satisfies a need to
speak, a choice.

        Marah, thaks for the prod.  I hope to hear from you again.

Robert de Cyberie

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From 100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM Fri Apr 12 09:29:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: re Structure  [was: Re: Some more reflections??]
From: Guy Fielding <100044.275@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:29:17 EDT

Hi Walter: some responses to your comments on my responses.....

NGT...sorry about the jargon...NGT=Nominal Group Technique, which
is a technique for structuring face-to-face problem solving group
discussions. I think its quite well known, but if people are
intersted I can provide some references to sources, plus email people
with some stuff I've written about the technique and why its useful.

One of the intersting things about NGT is that (I think) it has been
used by some of the early people looking at computer conferencing
as the basis for organising conferencing software (eg Roxanne Starr
Hilitz??) Don't know enough about this, but could find out more
if you're intersted.

Intrigued by your ideas about introducing "different rules" for
running groups over the Net...but need to think some more about
the implications.

Regards
GUY

Your mesage was:
*Hi  Guy

*> They also reproduce it
*> in the sense that the only way to break its operation in face-to-face
*> groups is to impose very strict structuring of participation (eg rules
*> used in NGT, parlimentary debate), and I think that some researchers
*> have devised similar strict rules for managing contributions to cmc
*> (researcher at University of Alaska??? was developing software of
*> this kind back in the early 80's???).
*
*NGT?
*
*It does not bother me that people read & do not write on this list --
*to add to our list of list metaphors -- this one is the mall -- not
*everyone shops -- but the foot traffic is great.  A great place to
*meet and lurk!  Do a bit of people watching.  However:  I am
*interested in developing on line "groups" where there is tight
*structuring & fixed numbers -- where people agree to abide by the
*structures of the group -- such as responding to the facilitator /
*leader's prompts -- eg:  Lets hear from everyone about one feeling &
*one thought that comes up as you face the screen & think of this
*group.
*
*I have been intrigued by the game process that Charles has introduced
*as it structures process beautifully.  Structure provides freedom to
*express -- the canvas for the painter. I have participated in an on
*line reading group that IMHO suffered from a lack of structure -- and
*hence ground to a halt.  It could happen here, though I doubt it will
*as _whatever happens_ it is always on topic to discuss what is or is
*not happening !
*
*I am hoping we can explore many options and structures and report back
*here.
*
*
*Walter

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From pacman@MI.NET Fri Apr 12 09:39:18 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER Re: A friend goes digital
From: Mark Paciga <pacman@MI.NET>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 18:39:18 -0300

>My name is Regina and I am new to the list, no comments yet, but a
>suggestion from another group in which I participate that had the same
>problem.  We all include a part of the listserv name in the subject line so
>messages are easily scanned and dealt with in a timely manner as to business
>or pleasure. I.e. PSYBERNET RE: etc.

I subscribe to 8 lists, and this was getting to be a problem for me as well.
I see you're still using Eudora 1.44.  My solution was to upgrade to version
2.2, which filters all my incoming mail automatically.  Saves a ton of time.

      -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                         Mark Paciga (pacman@mis.nb.ca)
      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2826 (very much under construction)
      -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
            I am not responsible for what nonsense my mind produces.
      -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 12 11:20:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lists and Differences
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:20:49 -0600

Guy,

        Finally, I have an opportunity to speak with you. In the following:

GF>Several previous posts have struggled with the tensions caused by
GF>different dialects (academic-ese vs vernacular) and commented on
GF>the excitement of the enormous variety of different kinds of people
GF>and associated perspectives/styles who are posting to this list.
GF>Maybe there is an important point here,
GF>which is that communication is possible because of what we already
GF>share (language, culture, existing knowledge) but it is worthwhile
GF>because of the differences (what we don't already share).

        I think that you need to consider that some of those things that we
seem to share are in fact things which separate us (language, culture,
existing knowledge).  What we do all have in common are communication
experiences and *contexts* whithin which we frame our understandings,
*contexts* that are for the most part universal in the western world. I
agree with your thesis that it's the differences that strike us and draw
attention. Differences are valued as mirrors that reflect our own unknown
aspects of self. As the French as so often quoted as saying, "VIVE LA
DIFFERENCE!"

GF>If the differences don't exist, aren't big enough, there is no or
GF>little point in communicating. The "trick" is to get the right
GF>balance, and one of the things this list has been discussing/working
GF>out is how to manage that balance. One way it is managed is by
GF>people simply "dropping out", another is by people working out
GF>a new, shared dialect (and related rules of conduct) (and maybe
GF>"lurking" is partly about people doing that learning, and getting
GF>up confidence to produce as well as receive..just as we can often
GF>understand a foreign language before/better than we can speak it).

        A great analogy, the learning of a second language. When we approach
the understanding of being a lurker in this way, we give the lurker a
subjective quality rather than an objective quality, we also give the lurker
some respect.

>I've been involved in setting up student exchanges, and the slogan
>I've coined for our exchange programmes is that "the similarities
>(between university programmes) make exchanges possible, the
>differences make them worthwhile". It seems to me that that notion
>applies equally well to communication, and explains some of the
>excitement of list-conversation.

        I've been involved in a number of international excursions with
students who did manage to grow because of the differences even though they
thought the differences *dumb* at first. By the end of these educational
forays into other dimensions of human culture and space, my students came to
value these same *dumb* differences.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 12 11:20:54 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language and communities
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 17:20:54 -0600

Hi again Mila,

        What a way to encourage someone to speak out!

MK>Complete silence *entitles you* to write on *any* topic *you* choose -
MK>no matter how gaga or exotic - as long it's *formally* embeddable into
MK>"psyberspace". For example, a valid reaction on *complete silence* could
MK>be telling a faerie-dream in which characters such as myself or others
MK>you're perceiving onstage here are transformed in your favourite pets or
MK>flowers or whatever things you like or dislike. Just add a bit action to
MK>the scenery you composed thus - and you bet they'll respond in all
MK>tonalities they avail.

        I like the idea of a faerie-dream (something tells me that Walter
would enjoy this wuite a bit as well).  This might be what is needed by some
in their exploration of the *psychology* of a listserv.

MK>Writing this onlist is meant  as a threat from me to act
MK>correspondingly, if I'd feel neglected (I own 3 wonderful cats - one to
MK>impersonate Robert...).

        And what does this alter-ego cat do to impersonate moi-meme?

Robert de Cyberie

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri Apr 12 12:29:56 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Structure  [was: Re: Some more reflections??]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:29:56 GMT

Hi  Guy

> They also reproduce it
> in the sense that the only way to break its operation in face-to-face
> groups is to impose very strict structuring of participation (eg rules
> used in NGT, parlimentary debate), and I think that some researchers
> have devised similar strict rules for managing contributions to cmc
> (researcher at University of Alaska??? was developing software of
> this kind back in the early 80's???).

NGT?

It does not bother me that people read & do not write on this list --
to add to our list of list metaphors -- this one is the mall -- not
everyone shops -- but the foot traffic is great.  A great place to
meet and lurk!  Do a bit of people watching.  However:  I am
interested in developing on line "groups" where there is tight
structuring & fixed numbers -- where people agree to abide by the
structures of the group -- such as responding to the facilitator /
leader's prompts -- eg:  Lets hear from everyone about one feeling &
one thought that comes up as you face the screen & think of this
group.

I have been intrigued by the game process that Charles has introduced
as it structures process beautifully.  Structure provides freedom to
express -- the canvas for the painter. I have participated in an on
line reading group that IMHO suffered from a lack of structure -- and
hence ground to a halt.  It could happen here, though I doubt it will
as _whatever happens_ it is always on topic to discuss what is or is
not happening !

I am hoping we can explore many options and structures and report back
here.


Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From hoon@APK.NET Fri Apr 12 14:26:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Structure
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 22:26:43 -0400

a comment...

>        Can we try this? I, too, feel that this is possible. However, I
>think that those who don't form part of this group could be allowed to lurk.
>The game process showed this interaction between Charles and Steven, however
>I did notice that I did speak up at one point, and that you did the same.
>Did that influence the dynamics of the game in a negative sense?  in a
>positive sense (any comment from either Steven or Charles?)?

YES, the interjections during the game were essential, rewarding, and among
the greatest gifts revealed  by the game's process/progress.

Stephen

***

"Don't be afraid to go out on a limb.  That's where the fruit is."

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Fri Apr 12 16:29:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: The Dawn and the songs of morning
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 00:29:20 -0400

Psyber folk,

>Diversity is present and alive.

>I said "I can't be bothered "

The first line is from the prolific Robert de Cyberie.  The other line is
from Josh On, whose second post I rather enjoyed.  Why do I put these two
statements together?  I'll attempt to relate a simple experience I had today.
 I wish I could use the English language more beautifully, but it doesn't
take a wise man (or woman) to figure out that what I say is truth.

I awoke earlier than usual today and always before the dawn on workdays.  As
I lay in bed awake, I listened to the sounds of morning:  the dim background
of machine noise, that traffic din that would increase over the hours until
reaching a peak at rush hour.  But, the sound that was most distinctive was
the repetitive sounds of bird songs.  I remember on certain mornings, I would
hear a single bird sing and, as if on cue, others would join in.  Sometimes,
I would just lay in bed, the seconds stretching into minutes, listening to
the songs of different birds because the sounds were so clear and beautiful.
 And surprisingly, the most beautiful songs of all came from one bird, the
mocking bird.

Now, what does this story have to do with anything?  The joint melody of bird
songs symbolizes the diversity of all of us in this place.  The increasing
machine noise, that includes the material concerns of our everyday lives,
making a living, academic competition, propagation of self philosophy,
whatever else that keeps us from paying attention to other things of life.
 The mocking bird represents the idea that, "It doesn't have to be truth to
form beautiful sounds."

Diversity.  Let it be.  Listen to the songs.  Don't drown out the sounds of
diversity with your cold noise if you don't agree with someone's point of
view.  Keep your righteousness in check.  Quit trying to be someone's father
or mother with the mindset that you know what is right and true and good,
that others with whom you disagree are wrong or evil.

You could choose not to hear this message like the ignorance when we sleep
through the sounds of morning.

John

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From 101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM Sat Apr 13 04:59:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language and communication
From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 12:59:38 EDT

To: XMeff@AOL.COM

Actually, grammatically correct you should have heard referred to it as
"insanitas germanica" (insanitas, -atis, fem.). I am glad that you did not hear
"insanitas teutonica"! BTW, can you provide a reference (Journal article or
book) where this expression is used ?
Insanely laughing, WFS

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 13 05:56:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Back
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:56:55 GMT

My ISP shifted and it has been almost 24 hrs since i have been able to
log on -- but it is all go now!

w

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 13 05:57:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: codes, contexts, dialogues, and netsex
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:57:11 GMT

Susan,

Great to be able to just sit down at the kitchen table with you . . .
I recall you saying you taught rhetoric.  Is that a particularly North
American subject?  I have only come across it in Zen & the Art OMCM
which cropped up in another post here . . .

> [Charles] posting was rich with examples and led me to
> wonder whether list conversations, because they potentially bring in a wider
> range of coders and hence codes than we typically meet in our face-to-face
> interactions, might lead us to create/construct codes which might be more
> inclusive and tolerant of one another. We each serve as teachers/mentors to one
> another in offering new codes, new metaphors, new contexts--and go away richer
> for it.

Hmm -- we are also able to select more carefully who we relate to --
many people come and go on this list -- since 6 April 20 have left and
10 have joined.  Perhaps this means we are in a place that is forever
becoming more uniform. Oh, and no, I dont take it personally, you
asked a while back -- there is a core who have stayed for a long time
and that core is building -- i think it is good to have people pop in
have a snoop, and pop out if it is not for them.

> Jurek's consideration of context made me think of works by Kenneth
> Burke--Burke talks about words as being shorthand for a context, for the fuller
> drama of an action within a situation. Words thus can be labels for a whole
> complex of action, motion, emotion--and may capture different aspects of the
> same scene depending on our perspective.

Can you relate that to our work here?  I think of this list being a
context -- created by the raw materials of hard & software -- and
Internet norms, and the specific list description and structure.  Even
a small change, in any of these would influence the content.  Do you
mean PSYBER-L (as a word) is shorthand for this context?

> I think the struggle with
> moving from the know of F-T-F into technically mediated interactions is part of
> what we are collectively trying to figure out here.

I see that as one major focus -- certainly of interest to me.  As a an
individual and group psychotherapist I want to move part of my
practice into this incredible medium -- but the shift is more than I
expected -- one cant "repackage" the f2f into an online form -- this
medium will demand its own form and I want to hear that call!  I hope
that this list will help us hear it.

> I taught a class last term (Sept. through December) that was
> "networked;" in other words, it was taught in multiple sites.

[snipped -- great description of an important project]

> I taught eventually from all three sites and that made a huge
> difference in interaction--teasing seemed easier, which extended to interaction
> between people in all sites, once I had met people face to face. Indeed, the
> biggest challenge relationally was in keeping the people in Rapid City feeling
> connected since I only got out there once.

I have toyed with getting the Psybernet Small Groups (for a fee) --
off the ground by having a local f2f meeting -- and then follow-up
with email and more f2f.  I love the internationality of the Internet
-- but so far I need to work f2f to earn my way.  I expect it might be
the moving from the f2f to the unknown that is part of that.

> If immediacy is important, how can it be created when the video and audio
> channels aren't even there? Are people more satisfied with lists that somehow
> create a sense of immediacy? Is there an immediacy of the soul that can be
> conveyed through strokes on a keyboard?

I am still at your kitchen table -- I feel a little hesitant not
having been invited, but I feel enough of your warmth to know that we
are connecting -- we share a real enthusiasm for the potential of
facilitation via new media and have different experiences to share --
I feel enthusiasm for that and sense that it is mutual . . .  more   .
. . I pick up on many aspects of your background and culture and while
I am in New Zealand -- it is familiar -- you mention Goffman & it is
one of those code words Charles spoke of -- I did not do sociology at
uni -- but I recall coffee table conversations about it -- haven't
read it -- but brings back those I970 discussions, . . . I know you
know what I mean.

OK, perhaps I am a little off beam . . . it would be too much to call
this immediacy of the soul . . . but a couple of emails is taking us
into that direction.  What do you think?

> [Robert]  also positied, drawing from T. Moore, I think,
> that "every dialogue that is authentic is sexual in nature." Maybe this relates
> to an immediacy so close that we feel one with each other--unified in spirit,
> at least for a moment.

I am reading your post and replying as I go and had not read what is
coming up . . . now in my "immediacy mode" I am asking "is _this
dialogue_ sexual in nature?"  (And I hear Laurel / Dolores say -- of
course it is !)  I am conscious of that aspect -- especially the
sitting at the table uninvited seemed to involve some personal space
issues and gender issues.

> Mila said that "dialogs are loving acts of gardening
> (perhaps each other)" (wow, how beautiful these images from Robert and Mila
> are). Perhaps we are gardening intimacy through authenticity. It does touch
> something physical also--despite the criticisms of intellectualizing as sterile
> and full of bullshit, to be honest, I find that intellectual discussions that
> create involvement, draw people in, draw me in -- mentally, emotionally,
> physically. The passion which Charles describes as guiding his discussion of
> codes is a real passion.

Ah well -- stronger feelings now!  I seem to have intruded into
another relationship -- brings up a whole swag of associations, some
withdrawal too . . . a withdrawal from the _heightened_ immediacy!

> The physical sensations of an intense discussion, one
> which leads to new ways of thinking and knowing about ideas, are as real and as
> powerful as sexual eperiences. The high in a meeting of the minds is every bit
> as rich as the high in a meeting of the bodies.

as powerful or as high . . . but perhaps sexual in some way in their
own right?  I want to entertain that idea . . . it is a bit freudian
really . . . everything is sexual  it can become absurd.  For all the
immediacy and feeling associations, the pleasure i have is more  about
the delight of being met in some of the other chakaras.

>.Now, lest I make myself too
> ulnerable in this sharing of insight (it's feeling a bit chancy here), let me
> shift . . .

I share that feeling . . .

> this to the idea of netsex introduced by Laurel/Dolores.

Yes -- and firmly -- if awkwardly on our agenda -- quite a topic for a
list that is explicitly into _experiential learning_!

> This all comes
> back down to the notion of immediacy and dialogue on the net--an issue that we
> are exploring both in words and in our relationships as they build in this
> little corner of psyber-space.

I find it satisfying when you and others too, are able to mirror back
so crisply one of the purposes of this list -- one I spent energy on
expressing in a few words and ensuring was encapsulated in the list
description.  I am pleased to see it is happening.

All for now,


Walter


PS

> --and now, I must be off--I am supposed to be
> commiting to paper an analysis of the archetypes for relationships as found in
> "Beauty and the Beast" and have dallied long enough.

Get it done?




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 13 05:57:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: == PSYBER-L FILES and ARCHIVES ==
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 17:57:26 GMT

== PSYBER-L FILES and ARCHIVES ==

To get files and archives email LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM  In
the body of the email write:   INDEX  PSYBER-L.

You can then issue GET <filename> <filetype> commands to the same
listserv address.

For example

GET PSYBER-L.DESCRIPT

That will give you the list description.  The logs of the list
can be sent to you via email in the same way.

GET  PSYBER-L.LOG9603

for March etc.


all the best with it


Walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 13 15:42:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Mail Management [Was PSYBER Re: A friend goes digital]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:42:27 GMT

All:

> >  We all include a part of the listserv name in the subject line so
> >messages are easily scanned and dealt with in a timely manner as to business
> >or pleasure. I.e. PSYBERNET RE: etc.
>
> I subscribe to 8 lists, and this was getting to be a problem for me as well.
> I see you're still using Eudora 1.44.  My solution was to upgrade to version
> 2.2, which filters all my incoming mail automatically.  Saves a ton of time.

== Filtering mail ==
Getting the software to do the filtering is the answer, it is not practical to
train all users to add certain codes.  Agent by Forte & Pegasus also do this
essential task.

== Digest ==
For those where these packages are not an option getting PSYBER-L in a daily
indexed digest may be a better option.

Email LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM  In
the body of the email write:
SET PSYBER-L DIGEST

== Threads ==
If your package has a 'read by thread' option, that may  help in following a
particular line of interest.  The subject header (excluding the Re: is used for
this sorting)  Note when posting how keeping the subject heading the same for a
particular discussion helps those who use the thread system.


Walter

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From edbaud@SLVBBS.COM Sat Apr 13 23:12:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: The Underground Men (and Women)
From: Fred Bauder <edbaud@SLVBBS.COM>
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 06:12:55 EST

There are a few "lurkers" on this list whom I know from personal
knowledge are here for critical purpose; upon the announcement of this
list they announced on other lists that they intended to lurk here and
made either negative or critical observations regarding this list; one
believed on-line psychotherapy was being offered here; perhaps it is;
but perhaps something other is being explored.  Another, a list-owner of
a competing list, expressed his general negativity, on his own list he
freely expresses his freedom to "post about green chickens, if he wants
to, and if you don't like it, Tough Shit."  Another lurker, who may
emege here like some alligator emerging from a sewer, is against what he
calls "psychobabble."  Perhaps he is here.

Expression of negativity will find a resonance amoung these underground
characters.  More later.

Fred

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 13 23:13:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 11:13:43 GMT

Kyra,

> I am me.  At one point in time I was many me's.  Currently I am a student
> (in both the literal and proverbial sense of the word) in psychology (and
> in life), working towards my Doctorate in Psychology from a Masters in
> Social Work.

One of the themes I have wanted to come join in with here is the one of multiple
on line identities and their authenticity, the degree to which they are a form
of deception and so on.  I have several interests in this.

One of the most powerful on line experiences I have had was in a list (echo on a
BBS) called ALTERWORLD -- it was an anonymous we were anonymous and could write
using any name or address -- I liked it because we could indulge in our
multiplicity and also in anonymity, yet this being overt and the focus of the
list there was no sense of secrecy or betrayal  (there was a problem in the way
it all ended -- another story).  I am interested in more of that sort of list.
(All in its time)

Another reason for my interest is that as a psychotherapist I have worked with
several MPD clients (now called DID Dissociative Identity Disorder -- I prefer
Adaption which is what some push for -- though all labels are problematic)  Some
of the best and most rewarding work I do.  I rarely speak of it as it arouses
such *fascination* (including my own), which I find somewhat unhelpful.  I do
not want to indulge here in these matters yet when you mention who you are I
thought it would be good to acknowledge you and also say something of my work.
We do well to discuss these aspects of the "soul in cyberspace" with our
personal experiences included.

The other reason for my interest in the theme -- which has been bubbling in
dozens of posts here -- is that this list has the focus of _depth psychology_ &
while there are many theorists who we can draw on they all have respect for the
multiplicity of the psyche -- Jung and archetypes, Hillman explicitly favouring
anything "poly" over anything whole or one, and so on, Moreno and his use of
role -- not to mean mask but as fully functioning independent states of being --
ie we are always in a role.

I look forward to more on this whole question of identity on and off line -- and
to your contributions to that.

-- I have kept the title of the thread as  "poetry ..lurkers and inner voices.."
-- for continuity, and because  somehow links our lurker thread with the
identity thread.  I have some dislike for the term "inner", -- (though I will
use it of course at times) it seem to minimise the totality and autonomy of the
alters - roles - archetypes - and the clusters of _many_ that lurk within!  (er
-- without  -- anyway somewhere around!)


Walter

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Apr 14 05:03:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Just a thought in passing
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:03:50 EDT

Robert and Psyberians

Robert:
 >  I wonder at what we are trying to do here? Are we trying to
 >understand our *reality* in this dimension using the logic of a f2f world?
>Are we measuring this *reality* with a fifteenth (or nineteenth) century
>mindframe? Perhaps our attempts to *define* this communicative adventure are
>inappropriate and we should be allowing ourselves an experiential
>understanding until a new vocabulary arises. How can we define with words
>that have risen out of a different dimension, a different reality?
Jurek:
  New field You are looking for, is for me, a field of social construction of
reality as we speak. By  recursive dialogue, reflexivity we are coordinating the
understanding in the ongoing game. An language game. It is always tempting and
obviously our first reflex to use the old paradigm in to new situation. Some of
them will work some others not.  Bertram Russel author of Principia Mathematica
said that the quality of theory should be judged on basis of the premises for
theory. In view of academic elite or scientific priesthood that sound logical
and serve the purpose (elitist thinking - nothing wrong with that I suppose) for
the praxis of living that  daring at least optimistic.
  The scientific method evolved in the last 4 centuries (some days ago we had
400 anniversary of birth of Rene Descartes - L une de votre illustre ancetre
Robert, n est pas ? showed the way to the stars and to the ways of quarks and
reveals limitation of positivistic, mechanistic (Wilbur that one for You :-) )
reductionistic thinking in front of complexity of human beings. We are on the
move into new world from Uni-verse to Multi-verse. From one explanation to many
enactments. Just passing by...That a couple of words on delayed (fog and for the
moment finished sunny spring ) flight to Paris. Best regards Jurek.

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Sun Apr 14 05:14:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language and communication
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 13:14:49 -0400

WFS, (?)

How should I refer to you?  Dr. Schmidt, WFS, or simply
101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM?

You said:
>Actually, grammatically correct you should have heard >referred to it as
"insanitas germanica" (insanitas, -atis, >fem.). I am glad that you did not
hear "insanitas teutonica"!
>BTW, can you provide a reference (Journal article or
>book) where this expression is used ?

The term was coined in reference to the cutting down of the Germanic sacred
groves during the early 700's.  See p. 482 in Joseph Campbell's The Masks of
God:  Oriental Mythology, Penguin Books, 1962.  There is also a line from
Faust:  Zwei Seelen wohnen, ach, in meiner Brust!  (Indeed, two souls reside
within my being.)

Christianity was grafted upon the older pagan beliefs.  Campbell believed
this caused a split in the European psyche.  I do not know the source of
Campbell's idea, but I would think that with Campbell as an academic scholar,
his ideas must have been researched and documented by historians or
sociologists.

BTW, there is a story that the Christmas tree has its origin in these acts of
religious conversion.  St. Boniface, the first Archbishop of Mainz, had a oak
tree cut down to prove that it was not divine.  When the tree fell, it
crushed everything in its path except a small fir sapling.  Boniface, in a
clever move to win converts, deemed that fir as the tree of the Christ child.

>Insanely laughing, WFS

Are you of German descent?  I apologize if I offended you in any way.

John
My real name:  John
My screen name address:  XMEFF@AOL.COM

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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Sun Apr 14 07:18:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:18:41 -0500

At 11:13 AM 4/13/96, Walter wrote:

>One of the themes I have wanted to join in with here is the
>one of multiple on line identities and their authenticity, the
>degree to which they are a form of deception and so on...
>We do well to discuss these aspects of the "soul in cyberspace"
>with our personal experiences included.

************************************************************************

FOLLOW THAT STAR---A CYBERSTORY

There once was a rover.  In his youth, this rover had a dream and this dream
became a longing and this longing became a guiding star.  The rover followed
this star through the halls of academia.  He listened carefully to the
learned speech of the laureates; he spent countless hours communing with the
frozen words of the Dead.  The rover loved the philosophers and the
mathematicians; he joined the poets and cast his imagination like a net over
reality.  His path led him through the study of the mind and the diseases of
the body.  He became fascinated with Time.

Still the rover was discontent.  His comfortable reality laid on his back
like a tight suit.  His star beckoned him onwards and led him rushing down
the causeway to the vast ocean of cyberspace.  In cyberspace his soul
expanded and his imagination rejoiced.  The rover became many
people...moving through personalities like the countless fish in the sea.
The rover discovered the immediacy of online conversation and became adept
at the art of listening.  He learned the power of the proper word in the
proper place at the proper time.  He felt the tugs of the emotional currents
running fast and slow, warm and cold over his constantly changing cyberbody.
He was fascinated to discover that the swirl of the sea on his scales was
different according to the body he chose.  The rover experimented endlessly.
He explored the darkest reaches of the cyberocean...he shared his emotions
and his cyberbody with many denizens of the deep...never once returning to
the same place...never once being snared in the sticky web of deception.
This was his only rule and his only justification...he never deceived beyond
the first encounter and he only encountered once.

Still the rover was discontent.  He realized that his constantly changing
cyberform never approximated his mortal guise.  In fact, the rover realized
that he steadfastly avoided translating reality into cyberspace and he
wondered why. He also realized he was experimenting with the bounds of his
imagination...with the forbidden and hidden aspects of his personality.  He
was enthralled yet discontent.  Worse, his star was fading and in danger of
being extinguished.  During this time, however, a light appeared...a small
and wavering light held by a mermaid of shadowy form.  The rover saw this
light and turned away to find his star...he searched endlessly and with
increasing desperation.  He lost track of time and became disoriented...his
headlong plunge into cyberspace became a goalless wander through a dense and
thickening glue.

>From time to time, however, the mermaid would reappear and share her light
with him.  He realized that he divulged his secret side only when she was
there...still he kept her at fin's length.  The mermaid shared her tales of
the murky dangerous shoals of reality.  Her words sang with imagination and
a bubbling stream of humor.  The rover became afraid.  He was not stupid nor
was he naive.  In all his journeys through cyberspace he had studiously
avoided the entanglements of mixing real life with his constantly changing
cyberself.  Still, the mermaid was an undeniable attraction.

More than this, however, the rover came to realize what he had dreamed so
long ago.  He realized that his longing could only be satisfied by joining
with another...that by himself he was incomplete.  The rover discovered that
all his imagined transformations in cyberspace had only served to make real
his innermost essence...his central self...and it was this self which longed
to be shared.  The rover realized too that this self...this soul...was the
source of his longing and his soul would never rest content hiding behind
the walls of his ego.  The rover came to believe that cyberspace was a
medium for sharing his soul with another...for learning the boundless
potential of love and the awefullness of intimacy.  The rover became willing
to be vulnerable...he became willing to be hurt.  He made the difficult
decision to try and find a way to reconcile his reality and his life in
cyberspace without the need for deception.  Only in this way, the rover
thought, would he be able to follow his star...

The rover swam lazily in the vast ocean of cyberspace rejoicing in the play
of his imagination.  Beneath him and above him, the mermaid joined him and
together they spun in wide cybercircles..the colored lights of their souls
pulsing side by side, indistinguishable from each other, as they spiraled
off into the deep blue distance and finally merged into a single, bright,
shining star.


Steven the StoryTeller

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Apr 14 12:18:18 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lists and Differences
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:18:18 GMT

Hi  Guy

> "the similarities make exchanges possible, the
> differences make them worthwhile".

Wonderful line!  It is with this in mind that I am writing a form on
the Psybernet web page to assist in small group formation.  I am
wanting to make it easy for people to find structured and facilitated
groups that suit them for psychological work on-line.

Thinking about this, the possibilities of the web really became clear
to me -- and I had a week or so of *net-fever* as I boggled at the
sites I built in my fantasy.  Some of it I intend to make reality.
Some of it already is -- with mixed feelings I found firefly (Josh
told me about it).  If you have not seen   _firefly_   have a look:

http://www.ffly.com/

One of the first web site I have seen that is born of the web (though
I say that about Psybernet), it is not an online version of a page or
magazine, or a movie or a tape.

On firefly you feed in your taste in movies and music and on the basis
(somehow) of the similarities between people you get feed back on what
_else_ you would like.  ie _the differences_ that make it worthwhile!
You can also chat and post to others and check out their preferences
and see their reviews. To find me there look for my alias:  Taste-bud.
I have given it enough data (in other words I belong to certain groups
of people) so it can now accurately predict what I like.  I can check
out a movie before I go!

This is important for the Psybernet project.

This type of technology allows us to develop groups on line that have
the sociometry designed to suit.  The criteria for group formation can
be specified and then we can learn about the result.  To use your
words Guy -- we can tweak just the amount of similarity and difference
we want.

I am using some jargon here -- sociometry and criteria -- are words
that come from my training in the methods of JL Moreno.  His work is
relevant to this -- hanging around here will lead to some familiarity
with his approach.  There are others on this list too who have this
their background.  There is an internet phrase "you are your links" --
Pure Moreno.  Choose carefully: reject a lot -- and choose a lot!

I'd be interested in hearing, here perhaps (short) & in private email
(long and detailed) about tools and processes to develop this aspect
of Psybernet groups.


Walter
net-fever still raging

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Apr 14 12:29:57 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The Dawn and the songs of morning
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:29:57 GMT

John,

> I awoke earlier than usual today and always before the dawn on workdays.  As
> I lay in bed awake, I listened to the sounds of morning:  the dim background
> of machine noise, that traffic din that would increase over the hours until
> reaching a peak at rush hour.  But, the sound that was most distinctive was
> the repetitive sounds of bird songs.  I remember on certain mornings, I would
> hear a single bird sing and, as if on cue, others would join in.  Sometimes,
> I would just lay in bed, the seconds stretching into minutes, listening to
> the songs of different birds because the sounds were so clear and beautiful.
>  And surprisingly, the most beautiful songs of all came from one bird, the
> mocking bird.

I think again of the opening scene of Porgy & Bess . . . we have moved
on in the list since the silence & the whispering.

I like the traffic & the birds . . . I like the build up and the
rhythms.


w

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From tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ Sun Apr 14 16:27:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Hell I've been mail bombed by you guys...
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:27:05 +1200

Well hello,
It's TAMA & I'm Back,
Not many of you new comers will know me + most of the last 3 wks messages I
have sent went to the old adress.My messages were pretty personal,  Some
people liked it & others probably couldin't care less.Well I dunno...
  I have been away 10 days & I got 180 messages-hell!!
I was 25k away from being full up on my e-mail disk.
Walter seems like this place has had a major influx of people & it's
spinning over at a vast rate,  I think I will have to alter my approach
some what.I talk more later as I have a friend waiting on me.I had a really
Awesome cycle tour-great excercise,  beautiful lush Nz scenery,  great
people hot pools,  a great release.
 Well Kate kinda slipped up-ya know the girl who kinda siad no,  well I
gave her a massage & she melted for an intimate while,  but now shes run
off to think...
  well it's colourful experience.

Anyway hello to all I know & When I get round to reading all those
messages-I jump back in again!!

Se ya All-Tama Neill...


                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"

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From cacst9+@PITT.EDU Mon Apr 15 04:55:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language and communication
From: Cecelia A Clancy <cacst9+@PITT.EDU>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:55:01 -0400

On Fri, 12 Apr 1996, Dr. Schmidt wrote:

> To: XMeff@AOL.COM
>
> Actually, grammatically correct you should have heard referred to it as
> "insanitas germanica" (insanitas, -atis, fem.). I am glad that you did not hear
> "insanitas teutonica"! BTW, can you provide a reference (Journal article or
> book) where this expression is used ?
> Insanely laughing, WFS


I would like a reference too.  And to me, it is not so funny.


Cecelia Clancy (German on my Mother's side)
Neuroscience, CAS
University of Pittsburgh

cacst9+@pitt.edu

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From edbaud@SLVBBS.COM Mon Apr 15 05:10:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Language and communities
From: Fred Bauder <edbaud@SLVBBS.COM>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 12:10:51 EST

in response to Marah Rosenberg,

Language on Psyber-l is a work in progress, the word lurker, an
obnoxious usage as applied to an audience or a readership is under
discussion.  Psychobabble, another abomination (which you use) as
applied to legitimate insights regarding dynamic interaction, I put on
the table also.

With regard to being responded to or engaged by others, postively or
negatively, I simply point out, other things being equal, good writers
have the power.

Fred

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Mon Apr 15 06:21:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: ideas for nice people/love changes
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:21:33 -0500

Steve--thanks for your openness in sharing yourself, esp. through the articles
you forwarded. Synchronicity is a powerful thing--and you sent something along
which seemed to fill a need for me. From Jung's perspective, you seem to have
created a marvelous link with your anima (feminine side)--how neat to see this
modeled and then spoken of with such grace.
        To all--this is just a quick note (no Walter I'm not ignoring your
post). I am consigned mostly to listening right now since this paper I'm
working on is having a difficult birth, but I find the contact established here
important and thus at least participate at that level. And since Steve's post
struck a chord for me, I wanted to make sure he heard the "ummhmm...oh, yeah! "
from this listener in the conversation.
                Susan

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Mon Apr 15 08:34:18 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Poem:  cyber.illusions
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:34:18 -0400

cyber.illusions

in this forever night
illuminant

    this manuscript
    of sighs

into this breathless fire
obdurate

     this narrative
     of love

from that boundless page
insufficient

    this composition
    of a kiss

within the crystal image
temporal

    this extract
    of  desire


(c) Is'e
96.13.05r

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Mon Apr 15 08:39:40 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Holding space.
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 20:39:40 GMT

Holding space.

A list is not a group.  I know that -- but at times I think of it like
that -- hanging on to the familiar -- Hit home today as I had a sense
of the breeze blowing through here.  I was driving to the dump with
rubbish form our renovations and entered into this place while, "with"
the people here while driving, have not left.

I am aware of Charles's "ouch!" and why groups can hurt.  I wanted to
look across and see him, I am not sure of the details but the ouch
stands out in both the noise and the silence.

I was aware of Dolores, Tracy & a tangle of unfinished threads.
Language, netsex -- but most of all the beginnings of a web of
relationships, positive & negative, that I can only dimly see, and
that I fit into somewhere.  How was that for you Robert when there was
that small aside -- that _you_ would raise the netsex again!

And Steve (etc.)-- newly emerged from "reading only" with writing on
hypnosis, NLP, and personal journey.  I wonder what it is like to have
posted that here, and now awaiting a response?  I wonder how others
respond to it -- even more how I might respond ( like this for now).

Fred and the voices from the underground -- somewhat like the news
from Dolores who also had off-list information. Tentacles from the
deep have been snapping at me, I don't like them, but I want to see
what all that is about.  Will say more.

I think of the diversity here extending into "worthwhile" difference
and bordering on difficulty -- language and cultures -- interests,
styles, all still creating unknowns for us.  ( I got mail in another
list -- from Australia and I liked just seeing something from where I
grew up!  Familiar. )

Tama is back and the mail bomb went off -- welcome back!

It hit me that a list is not a group.  All this is not held in a way
that I have come to expect from a group -- I felt and feel -- in space
-- with much happening --  but with no CIRCLE around it.

If I am feeling it perhaps others are too?

I do not want to judge this -- or change it -- I am noticing my
experience and that is enough for now.  The usual things (for me) that
create a holding space are not all here.  Is this a holding place none
the less?  Should certain things happen for that to be the case -- is
PSYBER-L OK the way it is?  Should it be a holding space?   For
example in four days 20 people left and 10 came in -- this is fine --
that is the nature of this list.  Can it then contain what is
happening here -- and do its task?


Walter

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Mon Apr 15 09:30:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Tama, you devil!
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 17:30:28 -0400

Psyber folks,

It's a sunny day outside so I won't tarry long.  Just a few thoughts
concerning evil and since Susan Swann referred to a Jungian perspective, I
thought I would mention how we too easily perceive it in others, ie, how we
see it outside, but not within.

I suppose the title of Tama's message prompted me to bring up the subject.
 Here in the States, the FBI has captured a suspect for the infamous
Unabomber attacks.  Apparently, the Unabomber is anti-technology and has
waged an one-man assault against the men and institutions that perpetuate the
evil (as he sees it) of technology.  Personal details of the suspect are
leaking out and it seems as if he was a very insular man, ie, he had no deep
relationships with others.  Yet, he had deep convictions even if they were
warped.  As for the lack of relationships, he appears to have maintained
contact with his family if somewhat sporadically.  No man is an island.
 Loneliness may be a symptom or cause of mental disorder but not all loners
are killers.  Even couples and mothers with children can kill, eg, Bonney and
Clyde, Susan Smith.

 I am reminded of Fredrick Nietszche, who never married though he had a brief
affair with Lou Salome.  I wonder if Nietszche would have ever written 'Thus
Spoke Zarathrustra' if he had not experienced the heightening (or quickening)
induced by his exposure to that intense fascination with Lou.  Of course,
Nietszche never killed anyone but his influence was immeasurable.

Love conquers all does it? It seems to be only a feel-good fairy tale.  Is
this idea of the all-conquering power of love universal or is it more
restricted?   I wonder if love has ever been the catalyst for outbursts of
passion of the violent sort.  I could go on, but like I mentioned it's sunny
outside.   I want to go out and play. <g>

John

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From tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ Mon Apr 15 19:13:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Tick Tick Tick-KABOOM-(A flower grows out of the ground)
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 19:13:23 +1200

Hello there,

Tama, you wrote some posts to the list which I got forwarded from
the old, now defunct address.  Good to hear from you and on the
phone as well!  You may wish to repost -- as I explained.
somehow I do not want to loose that thread connecting to your
open heart.  I think it belongs here in this list.
I have a fear that your openness (and mine?) -- may be seen as
"off topic" or as too much "group therapy".  I hope you hang in
there with your style, I have no doubt you will!
-Thank you Walter-I'm am definetly gonna continue what I'm doing,  I would
like you you to repost those messages that have gone astray please-thanx..,
But I am also going to get more involved in th ewhole hub bub of
didcussion.I have just been picking off th odd bit of mail & perusing it,
& wow it's fantastic,, I read 3 or 4 of Laurel's posts,
People I'm mighty impressed, I have to admit sometimes I could not quite
figure some of your intellectual talk so I continued doing what I know
best,  buts it's  one great melting pot huh.Good to hear from Josh On.He
probably thinks I crap on does he? -any body wanna Flame-I'm open,  I'm
vunerable,  I'm up to it...

Well When I have some more time I'll delve back into the hundreds of
messages & put in some feed back.
The writing that comes up next is letter like telling a friend what has
been happening in my lately:-

  Well what a full on time in my life!! I couldin't get any uni stuff done
in the last wk,  so I have to do it this wk,  now,  although I am,  a
little afraid of the hot bath water,  gotta tentatively put my foot in.

 I just about missed the bus to Christchurch,  If I had been 30 secs later...
I saw my grandmothers dead body,  pretty strange-didin't really look like
her that much,   shed lost a lot of hair... Don't wanna be sombre,  was a
constructive exp, Ya know makes ya wanna live life fully.The Funeral was
pretty down to earth not to spiritual,  I cried.Did not really know many of
the relations that well,  but we had a eat & drink get together afterwards
which was good.I also wrote to Kate-jeez Tama...

That night I meet my buddy John whom I have been friends with since about
the age of 4.We drank some beer,  er I ended up throwing up in a sink a
little-first time through drinking.We went to several night clubs,  It's
was all pretty similiar a bit more up market than dud but fucking
exspensive,  + some of the places were real meta markets,  I had a good
dance though

The next day I joined up with tha cycle tour at Mayles Cookie factory-got
loyts of cheap cookies-yum.Well there were about 28 cyclists including me &
3 drivers,  a great bunch of people,  great challenges (big hills &
ranges)-the scenery was gorgeous.The food was good,  everything was great,
I kept up with the racers with $ bikes for awile too.I was pretty friendly
& extroverted,  was a bit of a clown & a comic at times.I came on to a few
women,  I even propersitioned a 24 yr old,  she was flattere & said I was
sweet.She already had a lover in Queenstown-A 43 yr old,  + it would of
been impractical in a city of tents,  but it was a exp being actually
asking like that.I got stoned a few times,  in really beutiful places,
snowy mountains sourrounded by lush forrested hills cold sparkeling moon
lit rivers &  the milky way-wow...The Japanese bath houses & hot pools were
great too.
 I got back on Friday night,  I checked my E-mail on Sunday Fuck it was a
25 min wait to get it of the server on to disk I got 180 messages.Pretty
much all from one group-Cyber-L.

 Well I saw Broken Arrow on Saturday-it was a bit of a laugh-quite good.I
also went to Kates Hung out & talked-But I gvae her a  big massage 35 mins
worth-she was suprised & impressed,  she gave me a kiss,  Boy I was
breathing funny when I massaged her-I then caressed her, we kisse &
passhed,  it was no thinking just mellow intensity,  heavy breathing,
white smooth creamy skin,  Ugh,  she took her bra off,  what breasts,  we
it went on like that till she had to go out to dinner to a friends house,
well 2 of the guys came around she said meet mr Tama Neill-they already
knew me-that was slightly embarrasing,  not only for me for them.She kinda
joked at the door I'm gonna have 3-some with Leo & Claudia-C's her comedy
partner,  who has been comeing on to her when drunk she also goes out with
Leo who wnet to my high school.She asked if I was alright in
between-Jesus!!I kinda said I'll try & take it easy,  day by day-tried to
sound nonchalaunt I see ya when i see ya.She still has not found her comic
material.she has to preform tommorow night-ha ha... I have invited friends
to watch too,  it's a stand up thing to win money...

  Yeasterday I hung out with a good freind Matthew to get him out of the
house & un depressed-spend a lot of money doing it.We checked my E-mail,
had awesome coffees,  mine was a mega moucha -which was coffe & choclaye &
a flake in a bowl-mmm.Then we saw Dead Man Walking with my mum as well-the
acting in that is brilliant,  it's liak ewatching a doco,  really draws you
in-I cried,  heavy movie...
  We also went out to a cafe had some dinner & played a long game of scrabble.

 I stayed up till 3 am reading a realationship book...(Jungian astrology book)
Found out I only got a day to do a theatre studies 20% poject + I'm getting
penalised,  oh well least it will be out of the way tomorrow.I talked to
Kate on a card phone,  but she had girl friends coming over so I could not
visit her,  Fucking Confuseing eh,  just gotta be objective,  not her
fault,  or mine it's just learning,  mixed with pleasure & pain &
everything else.

we have to entertain a Korean boy for the wk,  hes so young not quite
assimilating-so much hassle compare to the jap girls.One of our old jap
girls is back hopefully I can get her to help me with Jap.

 Her comedy act sounded strange,  they did a act were they pretenede to be
chics,  kissing the crowd,  goinf to the toilet-peeing,  pukeing cahing
underwhere,  getting 2 ken dolls out putting condoms on theird heads,
crazy ha,  they got through to the ssemmi final on sympathy I think.

 Hear is the poem I wrote to her,  I'm gonnna write more beutiful stuff
than that-it was a kind a of a letter poem.

Dear Kate,
                Have a peice of my Pain...
You drag me down!!
Fuck me around
WHY?
Cause I'm a nice guy-
not the self destructive slimeball you desire!!
Intimacty can't handle attachments
compliments drag you down
Beuaty is Fear for me-
Moth to Flame
Burnt & raging inside at your thinking-
LET GO-
Open your arms,  purse your lips,
OPEN YOUR HEART-
LET ME IN!!
Can't handle it eh?

I don't need your co-dependant slef hatred shit
It's not Fun,  Frustrateingly Tourtorously painful to ME!!
Why lonely?
Well shes dead & I'm home alone
You try to appaese me-ohhoo...
FUCK!! Dont patronise me-
You Dont Want ME
Shoudin't of let me in that 1 inch
You think you thought but you didin't
Goodby kisses kindled a fire that you used to BURN ME!!

I won't say you can't help it,
Everybody can change
It starts with you!!
Get your SHIT together or get rid of it!!
I hope you don'y find the slimball causeself obliterating destruction aint fun-
Sometimes the peices can't be picked up

Well your free & independant-
-Good On You-
Youe freedom shackles you up-
Your scars are up & you shoot to kill

Freinds OK-But
I do what  I want-no more lackey-2nd status-EQUALITY
I'm TAMA, I can not but weep inside & cry out loud at your choice
Judgement is not mine to make,
Youve done enuff

Well I have learnt I found one of those people there-
I would like to help you but you have to want HELP!!

I liked you soo much-
I could of loved you..

Oh Well,  exhale extinguish mine breath,  breath in,  life goes on,
optismism,  posistivity-thats the way-gotta make the most of my life.
I won't look but hey damned if I'm gonna end up with or wothout you
KATE SHREW
I hope this feels...
You (beautiful)
It's been FUN-
See Ya around sometime xo

Tama Neill

P.S don't forget to take that
JAGGED LITTLE PILL-
Don't it feel good!!
Got a new theme song-You Learn Alanis Morisette
I wish we could be Head over Feet-but
Who said life was easy!!)

( well looking back reading that I have to say,  I kinda flamed her-it was
a good out let for her but slightly something-the book I wsa reading was
very interesting-I'll talk more abou that later.

Thought,  Feelings,  Reactions?

Any way gotta get going bye...



                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"

_______________________________________________________________
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LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L




From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Mon Apr 15 22:11:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 11:11:19 +0100

>I was aware of Dolores, Tracy & a tangle of unfinished threads.
>Language, netsex -- but most of all the beginnings of a web of
>relationships, positive & negative, that I can only dimly see, and
>that I fit into somewhere.  How was that for you Robert when there was
>that small aside -- that _you_ would raise the netsex again!

Since I have been cast in role of devil here, (thank you so so much Wilbur,
- I would have hated to sacrifice the scapegoat on the lawn under a full
moon) I have risen once more from the sulphrous, stinking pits of hell..to
post.
Firstly my appointed fallen angel, for some reason posted to the list
instead of privately to me. She had intended to stay a devil in disguise.
Im sorry Walter that because of that you missed the humour in that
sentence...it wasnt an aside. It was a joke.  I equate humour with
intelligence which is why I doubt that Robert took it personally.

Be more carefull in future Tracy or I wont let you play with the inccubi again.

Fred and the voices from the underground -- somewhat like the news
>from Dolores who also had off-list information. Tentacles from the
>deep have been snapping at me, I don't like them, but I want to see
>what all that is about.  Will say more.

Im curious....what off-list information? I am not one of Freds lurking list
luddites ( alas if only I could spell I'd be dangerous) Were I troubled by
such tentacles I would personally consider hacking away at the little
suckers.. frying them and adding a squeeze of lemon. That after all what a
list managers job is.
However It raises the issue of freedom of speech v the aims of the list. Are
you desirous of gathering around the list an elite clique of minds in accord
and perfect harmony?.. how boring, and how ultimatly non productive. Utopia
does not exist in the real world..and its sure as hell wont exist here. You
can never be entirely happy with a list, it will never be what you want it
to be, because you cannot control the seperate parts that make the whole.
And like most living, breathing entities, there is bound to be some
conflict.  Its that conflict that that makes it alive and keeps it rolling
when theres danger of stagnation.

Threads are meant to be broken..and or followed. One can also pick them up
again, sew them back in. If you keep doggedly sewing away eventually you run
out of cotton..


>I think of the diversity here extending into "worthwhile" difference
>and bordering on difficulty -- language and cultures -- interests,
>styles, all still creating unknowns for us.  ( I got mail in another
>list -- from Australia and I liked just seeing something from where I
>grew up!  Familiar. )
>

>It hit me that a list is not a group.  All this is not held in a way
>that I have come to expect from a group -- I felt and feel -- in space
>-- with much happening --  but with no CIRCLE around it.

I have been led to believe that there is order in chaos. I expect its the
same with lists.
Laurel draws a pentagram in salt, throws a little water here and there and
places candles on the points.. there that ought to hold us Trace...


>If I am feeling it perhaps others are too?

Who wants borders or limitations.. growth is impossible within them.

>I do not want to judge this -- or change it -- I am noticing my
>experience and that is enough for now.  The usual things (for me) that
>create a holding space are not all here.  Is this a holding place none
>the less?  Should certain things happen for that to be the case -- is
>PSYBER-L OK the way it is?  Should it be a holding space?   For
>example in four days 20 people left and 10 came in -- this is fine --
>that is the nature of this list.  Can it then contain what is
>happening here -- and do its task?

Its fine as it is..there are different camps, different followers, some
people detest others..some want to be noticed, others lurk silently in the
background, some have ideas, some have predjudices, some have wit, some have
wisdom..some are assholes...sounds like a true reflection of life to me.
*real* or cyber.

The Devil incarnate

Dolores

P.S Steven.. sounds like a mermaid in a million. I cant tell you how much I
enjoyed your story.

>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>

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From edbaud@SLVBBS.COM Mon Apr 15 23:04:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Mud Characters
From: Fred Bauder <edbaud@SLVBBS.COM>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 06:04:24 EST

Walter,

It is interesting as my two Mud characters develop; for one thing I have
never made a secret as to my true indentity, sex and age; that in itself
has been profoundly disturbing to some other players; changeing sex in
front of them wreaks havoc with their fantasy life.

My character will not be having any cybersex in any event; many of the
other persons logged on are minors and I am a practicing attorney who
frequently works with children; how would anyone know; well, I would.

My female character is now a sorceress and has her own e-mail address:
toots@slvbbs.com  I wonder if anyone will ever write her, or her scout,
Blackprince.  Certainly tips on technique of play could be shared.  I
wonder whether her identity and that of Blackprince will deviate from my
own; so far they are extremely intense players and don't have a lot of
time to spare for chitchat.

In wonder,

Fred

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From judithb@sbc1.com Tue Apr 16 00:52:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Holding space.
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 12:52:06 GMT

Emerging from the shadows;-) a fellow lurker who has been holding space in a
sense wanting to respond to Walter's post.

<It hit me that a list is not a group.  All this is not held in a way
that I have come to expect from a group -- I felt and feel -- in space
-- with much happening --  but with no CIRCLE around it.

If I am feeling it perhaps others are too?>

IHMO an expectation around group-notwithstanding Walter your professional
experience of group-the paradox of having no CIRCLE within a circle to me is
exactly the learning of this cyberspace experience with PSYBER-L I am sensing
the space held is the circle and participants move in and out in flow, some
dipping in for a moment checking their expectation to what they find here,
being fednotfed, expectationintention of the individual meeting the
participationintention of those engaged in dialogue within the form Walter
created. For me it is the creative tention around one's vision and one's
experience of reality ala Fritz and one's engagement in holding the sense of
anxiety which is inherent in this critical tention. For me in the role of
lurker since before the end of the year it has been a time of digestion-my
personal process-watching to see what would emerge out of my ingestion of the
dialogue here.
I am also aware of my posting heading into the structural tention of
processcontent.

<I do not want to judge this -- or change it -- I am noticing my
experience and that is enough for now.  The usual things (for me) that
create a holding space are not all here.  Is this a holding place none
the less?  Should certain things happen for that to be the case -- is
PSYBER-L OK the way it is?  Should it be a holding space?   For
example in four days 20 people left and 10 came in -- this is fine --
that is the nature of this list.  Can it then contain what is
happening here -- and do its task?>

Again IMHO Walter you have created a holding space whether this was a
conscious intention or not as opposed to *group.* The form exists called List
and thru this form emerges the content and thus the creation ofin the moment
which to me is the case as indicated by 20 people going out and ten coming
in. My experience of *group* in cyberspace, meaning a shared superordinate,
individual intention within a shared intention  was in an on-line PHD program
at the California Institute for Integral Studies. We brought our individual
intentiontask to the holding space called school and iterationsvariations
emerged from the vision of the transformation learning environment created by
the program meaning a given structure and time expectatino.

OTOH there is a list here with a superordinate intention which Walter holds
primarily and the dialogue for me as I lurk:-) has been very much around the
individual intentionsexpectations meeting this superordinate...as well as the
critical tention around the mechanisticorganic meaning *group* as a specific
type of form and the dialogue which emerges, the content.

For me I did not enlist for psychotherapy, meaning something I'm not sure of
or care to engage in. However, from my interpretation of Walter's intention
there is an expectation to create a group to do this and this list is the
doorway into a for profit idea of some sort in cyberspace. May have missed
something.

BTW what opened my *space* heartspace this am and lured me out of lurking <g>
was Tama's letter poem to the girl Kate. It touched something I had been
holding in my space and unstuck me and thus I received a gift for my well
being.

My metaphore for engaging in cyberspace - actually the way I sense my living
of life- is that of a salt crystal emerging from the saline solution, drawn
out into existance for a moment thru a magnetic resonance.

Judith, a lurker emerging from my saline solutionspace

So Walter in gratitude for creatingholding space and Tama my gratitude for
your heartspace:

 < Hear is the poem I wrote to her,  I'm gonnna write more beutiful stuff
than that-it was a kind a of a letter poem.

Dear Kate,
                Have a peice of my Pain...
You drag me down!!
Fuck me around
WHY?
Cause I'm a nice guy-
not the self destructive slimeball you desire!!
Intimacty can't handle attachments
compliments drag you down
Beuaty is Fear for me-
Moth to Flame
Burnt & raging inside at your thinking-
LET GO-
Open your arms,  purse your lips,
OPEN YOUR HEART-
LET ME IN!!
Can't handle it eh?

I don't need your co-dependant slef hatred shit
It's not Fun,  Frustrateingly Tourtorously painful to ME!!
Why lonely?
Well shes dead & I'm home alone
You try to appaese me-ohhoo...
FUCK!! Dont patronise me-
You Dont Want ME
Shoudin't of let me in that 1 inch
You think you thought but you didin't
Goodby kisses kindled a fire that you used to BURN ME!!

I won't say you can't help it,
Everybody can change
It starts with you!!
Get your SHIT together or get rid of it!!
I hope you don'y find the slimball causeself obliterating destruction aint
fun-
Sometimes the peices can't be picked up

Well your free & independant-
-Good On You-
Youe freedom shackles you up-
Your scars are up & you shoot to kill

Freinds OK-But
I do what  I want-no more lackey-2nd status-EQUALITY
I'm TAMA, I can not but weep inside & cry out loud at your choice
Judgement is not mine to make,
Youve done enuff

Well I have learnt I found one of those people there-
I would like to help you but you have to want HELP!!

I liked you soo much-
I could of loved you..

Oh Well,  exhale extinguish mine breath,  breath in,  life goes on,
optismism,  posistivity-thats the way-gotta make the most of my life.
I won't look but hey damned if I'm gonna end up with or wothout you
KATE SHREW
I hope this feels...
You (beautiful)
It's been FUN-
See Ya around sometime xo

Tama Neill

P.S don't forget to take that
JAGGED LITTLE PILL-
Don't it feel good!!
Got a new theme song-You Learn Alanis Morisette
I wish we could be Head over Feet-but
Who said life was easy!!)

( well looking back reading that I have to say,  I kinda flamed her-it was
a good out let for her but slightly something-the book I wsa reading was
very interesting-I'll talk more abou that later.

Thought,  Feelings,  Reactions?

Any way gotta get going bye...



                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________



--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Tue Apr 16 01:09:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Holding space.
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 07:09:15 -0600

Walter and fellow Psyberians,

        I've just returned from an extended family gathering and now have
the time to send a few words in response to your letter(s). Walter, you
opened your letter with:

WL>Holding space.
WL>
WL>A list is not a group.  I know that -- but at times I think of it like
WL>that -- hanging on to the familiar -- Hit home today as I had a sense
WL>of the breeze blowing through here.  I was driving to the dump with
WL>rubbish form our renovations and entered into this place while, "with"
WL>the people here while driving, have not left.

        Unfortunately, I have to agree, this is not a *group*. I on't think
that we have done what is necessary to find or build the bonds necessary for
a group. I don't think that we have much sense of group *identity*, group
*purpose*. It's like we're all just hanging out waiting for the *real*
action to begin.

WL>I am aware of Charles's "ouch!" and why groups can hurt.  I wanted to
WL>look across and see him, I am not sure of the details but the ouch
WL>stands out in both the noise and the silence.
WL>
WL>I was aware of Dolores, Tracy & a tangle of unfinished threads.
WL>Language, netsex -- but most of all the beginnings of a web of
WL>relationships, positive & negative, that I can only dimly see, and
WL>that I fit into somewhere.  How was that for you Robert when there was
WL>that small aside -- that _you_ would raise the netsex again!

        As for the disclosures from Charles (ouch!) and Dolores, I took them
as momentous acts that tried hard to begin the process of bonding the
potential group. Risk that exposes one's underbelly is painful. I wonder at
those who deflect away from risk and continue their games with words. What
are their hopes and purposes here.

        Walter, you ask about my reaction to the aside about netsex. Yes, I
wondered why the aside. What have I said that hints at such a preoccupation
with netsex? Perhaps it was a comment about the volume of my efforts at
communication, but I think not. Perhaps it has to do with my comment about
the sexual nature of dialogue.

WL>Fred and the voices from the underground -- somewhat like the news
WL>from Dolores who also had off-list information. Tentacles from the
WL>deep have been snapping at me, I don't like them, but I want to see
WL>what all that is about.  Will say more.

        Voices from the underground (Notes from the Underground). I am taken
back by their intensity. Lurkers have existed on every list in which I've
taken part during the last five years, but never with the intensity and
power that I notice here. They are *powerful* voices that echo from their
off-line dialogues with a number of us. Their vocalness off-line is causing
pause and I think silence. Dare we say much more which serves to make us
more vulnerable?

WL>I think of the diversity here extending into "worthwhile" difference
WL>and bordering on difficulty -- language and cultures -- interests,
WL>styles, all still creating unknowns for us.
WL>
WL>Tama is back and the mail bomb went off -- welcome back!

        I need, we need, the differences. The things that serve to draw our
attention and hold our focus in a world that is running on information
overload are important. I'd feel loss if this assembly failed to become a
group and as a group, begin to explore, in safety, our group psyche. Having
read the last archive from the older version of psyber-l, I was waiting for
the appearance of Tama. I wonder what she will say about us newcomers to her
space.

WL>It hit me that a list is not a group.  All this is not held in a way
WL>that I have come to expect from a group -- I felt and feel -- in space
WL>-- with much happening --  but with no CIRCLE around it.
WL>
WL>If I am feeling it perhaps others are too?

        Yes, I do feel it. And, it causes me a little sadness. How long can
we dance without drawing together into a circle? Must our dance be a
reflection of isolated *head-banger* culture? a culture of cynicism? Still,
I stay in hopes that the tentative threads that serve as the bonding glue of
a group might yet work their magic.

WL>I do not want to judge this -- or change it -- I am noticing my
WL>experience and that is enough for now.

        Yes, a meditative moment --- unjudged, just noted.

Robert de Cyberie

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From hoon@APK.NET Tue Apr 16 01:33:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Holding space.
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 09:33:43 -0400

A story.

I was with my teacher in a group totalling he and the four pitiful students
that we were! On a bright Monday morning in May we all went for a walk. The
place is New Orleans. It is very early and not too hot and surprisingly not
humid. We are all washed and clean and fresh. Because we are students we
understand our very opennesss is to be challenged.

Our teacher is good at this, very good.

We happen into the lobby of a large downtown hotel. It is empty except for
a young gentleman at the front desk who is chatting with a janitor. We
aren't a strange looking group really, but with one nod of the head from
our teacher, the man at the desk is put at ease.

Our group moves toward the doorway of the coffee shop to our left. We are
very quiet. Leading the way, our teacher opens the doorway and takes one
step into the coffee shop. There are twelve people enjoying the morning,
some coffee, and some food. They look up and are met with a short sweep of
our teacher's hand.

Suddenly all twelve are frozen. In mid sip, in mid bite, in mid word, in
mid thought, in mid breath.

We all step into the coffee shop. Silently our teacher beckons us to
explore. We walk up to some of the paralyzed persons. Their chests neither
rise nor fall.Their eyes do not blink. Yet, they are warm and full of life.

The door opens and a young man, perhaps a truck driver in his uniform,
steps in and is immediatly himself frozen several steps into the coffee
shop.

Our teacher gestures for us to have a look behind the counter. Standing
around him we note the water faucet is on but it too is frozen, a single
stream pouring into a pitcher the counterman is holding-but it does not
fill up.

Silently we all then look up and our teacher's eyes wait for each of us:
brown, deep, timeless.

A moment later he, with a nod of the head, indicates we are to leave.
Stepping by the man in the doorway we leave with our teacher trailing. As
he steps through the doorway he turns and with a matching wave of his hand
the coffee shop returns to its activity, chests begin again to rise and
fall. Eyes see. It is as it was.

Soon we are back on the sidewalk laughing in amazement. Our teacher answers
our questioning looks with the following:

"There is space and then there is space; there is time and then there is time."

***

There is cyberspace and then there is cyberspace. Perhaps our catagories
are not adequate.

Stephen

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Tue Apr 16 01:41:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Distracted
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 07:41:31 -0600

Tama,

        Sorry for the assumption of mine that led me to use the pronoun
"she" in reference to you.


Fellow psyberians,

        I've noticed the shrinking volume of mail and find that I want to
contribute a poem for your pleasure (or pain). After my initial poem in
March, I have put my poetry away thinking this space too busy for the poems.
Thanks to Tama and Lisa (and to John for his poetic prose) for the poetry. I
hope that this gives someone a moment of thought and/or pleasure.

Une tempete de coeur (Heartstorms)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Une furie de neige rend la nuit blanche
        shafts of light blurr outside
        warming the comfort of
        a silent watcher entranced by the
        snow's furious dance, a dervish
        of white and gold.

Des arbres denues de peur dansent
        girating shadow dancers
        dark and mysterious in their
        primal ballet of wind and snow
        a curious dance, a feverish dance
        so silent and slow

Le matin s'en vient avec le soleil
        and snow just fleeting memories
        etched in
        tremulous patterns
        blue and white ... blanc et bleu
        a choreographed abstract
        only the heart could know

Une sourire, les yeux embrumes
        private knowledge of peace
        and virgin purity of grace
        tempest and fury
        a wild and willing love pact
        ... heartstorms.

Robert de Cyberie

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Tue Apr 16 08:02:40 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: ideas for nice people/love changes
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 21:02:40 +0100

>
> Steve--thanks for your openness in sharing yourself, esp. through the articles
> you forwarded. Synchronicity is a powerful thing--and you sent something along
> which seemed to fill a need for me. From Jung's perspective, you seem to have
> created a marvelous link with your anima (feminine side)--how neat to see this
> modeled and then spoken of with such grace.

Why, thank you Susan - I appreciate your saying that.

I'd suggest Steve Parkhill's book 'Answer Cancer, the Healing of a Nation'
as something else you would I hope enjoy, as it's in tune with my own
ideas whilst Parkhill is far more experienced than I am.

Regards,

Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Tue Apr 16 11:23:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER:  cyber.illusions - plus
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:23:44 -0600

Lisa and fellow Psyberians

        I want to thank you for letting me hear one of your voices.  I do
enjoy poetry.  I hope that I don't affend you, Lisa, as I speak to you
through your poem.

LMcC>cyber.illusions

RdeC=> psyber.visons/dreams
>
LMcC>in this forever night
LMcC>illuminant

RdeC=>flourescent/incandescent
RdeC=>timeless space of whisper
>
LMcC>    this manuscript
LMcC>    of sighs

RdeC=>  flickering with
RdeC=>  an impatient silence
>
LMcC>into this breathless fire
LMcC>obdurate

RdeC=>electric pulse
RdeC=>calling, waiting, accusing, tempting
>
LMcC>     this narrative
LMcC>     of love

RdeC=>  this myth of soul
RdeC=>  a bard's song
>
LMcC>from that boundless page
LMcC>insufficient

RdeC=>server and served
RdeC=>lover and loved
RdeC=>ghostly
>
LMcC>    this composition
LMcC>    of a kiss

RdeC=>  promised
RdeC=>  desired
RdeC=>  denied
>
LMcC>within the crystal image
LMcC>temporal

RdeC=>a shared dream on screen
RdeC=>denying the coming of day
>
LMcC>    this extract
LMcC>    of  desire

RdeC=>  essences
RdeC=>  of soul mating
>
>
LMcC>(c) Is'e
LMcC>96.13.05r

RdeC=>(c) Sieur de Cyberie
RdeC=>96.15.04

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Walter and others,

        The dialogue within (not inner dialogue) this posting is different
from that possible via snail mail because of the interactive nature of the
audience.  I expect to find that such a conversation can continue through
both poetry and prose allowing the poem(s) to become a pulse of those who
engage in the dialogue.  Do we look at the interaction of the mated poem as
well as any discussion that results from our group/list psyche and/or from
our collective myths? Or, do we simply say "nice poem" and journey on? What
say you <<mon ami>>?

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Tue Apr 16 11:23:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:23:52 -0600

John and fellow Psyberians,

XMeff> And surprisingly, the most beautiful songs of all came from one
XMeff> bird, the mocking bird.

        Morning is truly a private time, a time for disclosure to one's own
self.  I appreciate the <<tableau>> that you paint as coming from a deep place.

XMeff>Now, what does this story have to do with anything?  The joint melody
XMeff>of bird songs symbolizes the diversity of all of us in this place.
        ... <snip> ...
XMeff> The mocking bird represents the idea that, "It doesn't have to be
XMeff> truth to form beautiful sounds."

        I agree, the words don't have to be true.  But, I do think that
their inspiration and source do find their roots in authenticity.

XMeff>Diversity.  Let it be.  Listen to the songs.  Don't drown out the
XMeff>sounds of diversity with your cold noise if you don't agree with
XMeff>someone's point of view.  Keep your righteousness in check.  Quit
XMeff>trying to be someone's father or mother with the mindset that you
XMeff>know what is right and true and good, that others with whom you
XMeff>disagree are wrong or evil.

        I agree with this call for the acceptance of our diversity.  But,
should we not also accept this dreaded *righteousness* and other aspects of
*cold noise* as part of that diversity?  Even the most oburate of
fundamentalist bigots have a core of value, a value that may bring us (me) a
small measure of joy.

Waiting for the next post,

Robert de Cyberie

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From vicki@BGA.COM Tue Apr 16 11:38:56 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER:  cyber.illusions - plus
From: vicki@BGA.COM
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:38:56 -0500

Dear Lisa and Robert --

What a creation of beauty!

>Do we look at the interaction of the mated poem as
>well as any discussion that results from our group/list psyche and/or from
>our collective myths? Or, do we simply say "nice poem" and journey on? What
>say you <<mon ami>>?

I cannot speak for the group, nor even for the lurkers or those who would
not be called lurkers.  But I do think this poem captures the feel of
cyber.relationships far better than standard explanations do.  It evokes
the promise inherent in the connection, and simultaneously, the desolation
of the ultimate denial.
Such a union of souls via cyber.space does indeed produce a strange fruit.

I won't say "nice poem."  I will instead write, "A haunting elucidation of
a poignant coupling, replete with the eroticism that emanates from the
union."


Thank you, Lisa and Robert.

Vicki

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From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Tue Apr 16 12:50:26 1996
To: Dan Randow
Subject: A message from the past on Psyber-l -- re distance learning.
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:50:26 GMT

Dan, 

this person also wrote a recent (interesting) post to the list.  You
might be able to make a connection & check out what they did in the on
line uni. prog.


w




On 07 Feb 1996 13:15:45 GMT, Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com> wrote:


Jumping in responding to Stephen's
<jb you in?>
who invited me into the list a few days ago..
.As with Jeanne Hall I am new to the list and sensing my way 
thru the discussion re: silence and the list and and the game proposal
by Charles Cameron. My experience in this medium is based on being
a founding partner of a regional on-line service for small
business-beginning
just prior to the AOL explosion where it was my focus to develop the
distance
learning
use of the medium. During this same period I was participating in the
first
on-line
PhD program thru California Institute of Integral Studies for a year
and
a half of course work which was amazing as we all engaged in learning
transformative learning together on-line using the Electronic
University
platform on AOL. 
That said I am intrigued with Charles' game and would certainly want
to play
-playing is fun and fun is a priority for me :-). During my PhDing I
particpated in a research project based in David Bohm's dialogue
ideation in
6 month intervals over 18 months which brought richness in very subtle
ways.
There were rules of the road set up one of which was a commitment to
visit
the space 3 times a week. often the only posts were *here
listening*-another
rule in response to our early on experience of silence as you have
noted. I'm
not sure as yet as I dip my toe gently in this water what value my
experience
may be here, however, I do think that having a purpose within the
superordinate is key to engagement and Charles proposes such a key
IMHO. I'd
be interested in having the experience of the game.
Looking forward...
jb
Judith Buerkel
JudithB@sbc1.com
-- 
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050





From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Tue Apr 16 13:35:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tick Tick Tick-KABOOM-(A flower grows out of the ground)
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 01:35:44 GMT

Hi  Tama,

> -Thank you Walter-I'm am definetly gonna continue what I'm doing,  I would
> like you you to repost those messages that have gone astray please-thanx..,

I have just searched high & low & cant find them -- do you have
copies?  I'll have another look too.

Hey, good to see you back



> & wow it's fantastic,, I read 3 or 4 of Laurel's posts,
> People I'm mighty impressed, I have to admit sometimes I could not quite
> figure some of your intellectual talk so I continued doing what I know
> best,  buts it's  one great melting pot huh.Good to hear from Josh On.He
> probably thinks I crap on does he? -any body wanna Flame-I'm open,  I'm
> vunerable,  I'm up to it...

I'm open,  I'm vunerable,  I'm up to it...

The way you say that!  You touch me, instantly, deeply . . .

> The writing that comes up next is letter like telling a friend what has
> been happening in my lately:-

It _is_ like that, and i hope that  you will be met thoroughly in
friendship.  I hope i can meet you.  You are that flower Tama,
bursting through the soil.  I hope you can hold up in the weather --
and you dont get blown over . . .

Ah . . .

I'm open,  I'm vunerable,  I'm up to it...

Can i trust you?  I dont think i have experienced that state . . .
ever.


Thanks,


walter

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Tue Apr 16 13:56:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 21:56:34 -0400

Laurel,

>
>Since I have been cast in role of devil here, (thank you so so much Wilbur,
>- I would have hated to sacrifice the scapegoat on the lawn under a full
>moon) I have risen once more from the sulphrous, stinking pits of hell..to
>post.

The entire point of nominating you as the devil was so that you would be the
scapegoat, and so that I could avoid that role..  ;-P

Hey, I'm not the scapegoat!

baaahhh... baaawwwahhhh!  (ooopppsss!)

<SNIP>

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Tue Apr 16 14:14:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: cyber.illusions - plus
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:14:17 -0400

cyber.surrender


Into the joy that is our giving
and the agony that is our need
Into the night that is our longing
and the day the gives us hope

Into the desire that is between us
and knowledge that we are none
Into the surrender of the deep emotion
and the moment of our intent

Into the miles that fold between us
and the time we span in jest
Into the silence of that weaving
is the substance of a dream


(c) Is'e
95.285.xx

encore, Robert?

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Tue Apr 16 14:15:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Holding space.
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 02:15:46 GMT

Hi  Judith,

Good to see you back in.

> IHMO an expectation around group-notwithstanding Walter your professional
> experience of group-the paradox of having no CIRCLE within a circle to me is
> exactly the learning of this cyberspace experience with PSYBER-L

You mean in rl groups there is also this paradox.  That inside the
circle -- there is no circle.  Like on the stage there is no stage,
that idea?

> I am sensing
> the space held is the circle and participants move in and out in flow, some
> dipping in for a moment checking their expectation to what they find here,
> being fednotfed, expectationintention of the individual meeting the
> participationintention of those engaged in dialogue within the form Walter
> created.

I find that helpful.  As if the CHAOS Dolores mentions -- that
creative flux, _is_ held here . . . for all that.

> For me it is the creative tention around one's vision and one's
> experience of reality ala Fritz and one's engagement in holding the sense of
> anxiety which is inherent in this critical tention.

Oh yes -- very familiar to me!  I lovehate it (can I do that, let your
style justflowonin to my style?) .  This Psybernet project is
_nothing_ like my vision of it, just as well.  I think I have held
that tension well, allowed the new to grow, and yet not totally
abandoning the basic idea.

Expectations I am referring to here are not really the visionreality
tension.  It was more that I visualise a therapy group as I am here
out of habit.  Bad habit.  A projection -- of something familiar into
something new.

> Again IMHO Walter you have created a holding space whether this was a
> conscious intention or not as opposed to *group.* The form exists called List
> and thru this form emerges the content . . .

That was, is,  my conscious intention --for PSYBER-L to be holding
space that is a list and not a group.  And to distinguish that from
the Psybernet Small Groups -- online closed groups.  I am not sure
that group is even the right name there.   It would be a great project
to name how the holding is done here -- and how that is achieved in
varieties of list. . .  many factors I am sure.


That is a response to the first half of your post.

I gotta go!  Hopefully more later . . .


Walter

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Tue Apr 16 14:55:40 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 22:55:40 -0400

Psyber folks,

Robert, I hear you:
>        Morning is truly a private time, a time for disclosure to one's own
>self.  I appreciate the <<tableau>> that you paint as coming from a deep
place.

Part of it comes from early remembrances triggered by recent events and part
of it comes from, oddly enough, the art and mechanics of research grant
proposal writing, not my own but something that could be conceivable.  There
is the idea that some species of birds may go extinct if the noise of modern
technology, things like bulldozers, shotguns, etc., encroaches on their
space.  If you rely heavily on auditory communication when light conditions
are dim and you can't hear a mating call, how do you find your mate?  Sound
believable?  Would a grant funding agency provide money for this research?

. . . a deep place?  I would think of it as the mixing bowl.

>        I agree, the words don't have to be true.  But, I do think that
>their inspiration and source do find their roots in authenticity.

Robert, I can't find myself disagreeing with what you say here.  That's good,
but I still have that inner drive to make distinctions.   I don't think I'm
turning chameleon on you.  Perhaps I am, but consider what follows and its
bearing on our discussion.  I am trying to express something different.  The
process of understanding, doesn't that involve the making of distinctions?

When we've gone as far as we can go, how do we answer the question:  "What is
the nature of the world?"   I can ask a similar question:  "What is music?"
   Is it patterns of information expressed through the interaction of energy
and matter?  Now, what is matter at its most basic level?

I find that there is an almost dream-like character to the world, realizing
at the same time that at our level of experience there are certain rules to
abide by.

(I'm not gifted or brilliant, if I was I'd be better off than I am.  But, I
can learn and improve.  Point out any gross fallacies associated with this
comparison, so I can develop the ideas in the best direction.)

Perhaps, there was confusion with the idea, that for the most part, words
that have their origin in sensible experiences are more easily believed than
words that are abstract.  I don't know.  Am I changing my tune in the middle
of the song?

>>Diversity.  Let it be.  Listen to the songs.  Don't drown out the
>>sounds of diversity with your cold noise if you don't agree with
>>someone's point of view.  Keep your righteousness in check.  Quit
>>trying to be someone's father or mother with the mindset that you
>>know what is right and true and good, that others with whom you
>>disagree are wrong or evil.

Cold noise, machine sounds, animated things devoid of feeling and thought, an
automatic pattern of reaction without reflection

--as opposed to--

Heat from bodies, the sounds of life; human beings who act upon  both,
feeling and thoughtful awareness

There was a question I asked Walter much earlier.  First, I wondered how far
along was artificial intelligence in mimicking human behavior.  Then, l
considered the the flip side of that question.  How machine-like have we
become?  Furthermore, how large a role does technology play in influencing us
in this direction?  Challenge your mind.  Ask yourself that question.

>        I agree with this call for the acceptance of our diversity.  But,
>should we not also accept this dreaded *righteousness* and other aspects of
>*cold noise* as part of that diversity?  Even the most oburate of
>fundamentalist bigots have a core of value, a value that may bring us (me) a
>small measure of joy.

Yes, there is a bit of hypocrisy in what I said.  My own righteousness comes
through.  I am not this or that.  I am both.  Yet, I am trying to point at
the relative nature of one's own truth.  Who is one to judge another's truth?
 One sets oneself above another when judging that person.  Who among us knows
truly what is good and what is evil?

John

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Tue Apr 16 16:12:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Dancing around a fire...
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 00:12:44 -0400

One of my initial notes about this group is that it isn't about a single
topic, isn't focused..

Metaphorically, there are several fires here, and several dances going on,
so a lot of us are left in between fires, lost in the wilderness..

Of course, what were are doing in the wilderness is quite amazing, and we're
all having fun, but we are also quite lost.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From judithb@sbc1.com Tue Apr 16 16:32:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Holding space.
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 04:32:17 GMT

<
WL>It hit me that a list is not a group.  All this is not held in a way
WL>that I have come to expect from a group -- I felt and feel -- in space
WL>-- with much happening --  but with no CIRCLE around it.
WL>
WL>If I am feeling it perhaps others are too?

RC>Yes, I do feel it. And, it causes me a little sadness. How long can
we dance without drawing together into a circle? Must our dance be a
reflection of isolated *head-banger* culture? a culture of cynicism? Still,
I stay in hopes that the tentative threads that serve as the bonding glue of
a group might yet work their magic.>
snip

I wonder at the sense of sadness...and the dance without drawing together
into a circle as Robert reflects. I haven't sensed this but then
differenciation for me is an issue :-) meaning what to call the sense. It
feels like yearning maybe.

And isn't this dance reflective of lists with no task. A list about antiques
may not have a task but would be more concrete to discuss. Here I am reminded
of David Bohm's concept of dialogue. I engaged in an 18 month research prject
as a participant to explore dialogue. It was fascinating to see the doers and
the be-ers dance:-) or not. The doers kept asking what the point was and the
be-ers would respond- being. The be-ers posted as if water coloring, playing
and diverging. The doers didn't want to color and wanted to converge ala
Kolb's learning style stuff.I loved it but then it allowed me to *be*. :-)
Eventually the participants dwindled to only be-ers probably a result not the
least of which was the anxiety - sort of like the doers throwing up their
hands at the lack of something concrete. It appeared to me that those who had
the greatest tolerance for the dialogue were those who had a grasp of
emergence which I am attributing to Robert's post< Still,
I stay in hopes that the tentative threads that serve as the bonding glue of
a group might yet work their magic.>

Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From yorkbay@WN.PLANET.GEN.NZ Tue Apr 16 17:32:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . .
From: The Thompson family <yorkbay@WN.PLANET.GEN.NZ>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:32:00 NZST

Great stuff. Wish I could reply, but well, I dunno.

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From tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ Tue Apr 16 18:29:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: POEM-It started as what ever came out
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:29:01 +1200

It started as what ever came out:

Urgh...
hello,
lots of gropeing & grasping for that word "group"
it's there somewhere
I know,
but where
group co-hesion
different projections

circles in space
ideas bounced
space broken like a skipping stone upon water
concentric circles ripple in response
water in space floats,  see through globules of floating matter reflecting
space in a oily mirror

Flash of light
heat
sun
rays flare
globules burst into crimson flame forever burning in their ever spinning
dimensions
where are we going?
messages in fancy bottles-wires transmit speed of light information
more than that intimacy,  thoughts,  feelings,  philosphy,  spirituality,
technology,  creativity
all meet in a extension of firery rays magnetically clashings sparkings

spinning out of control nothing to grasp on to but space
where is the anchor
floating out here is at one
lonely
at another powerful

rays of ever burning fires connect to form a net
floating tumbling
diving
being pulled
attracted
sucked in
flowing into the grasp of liquid fire like sand into an hour glass
meshed into the net

swooosh  sound reverberates across time and space
their is darkness as the firery net invelops itself and it's passengers
inside out swallowed up backwards
squeezed carressed
folded in time and space
consciouness flows inside out

err crash,  snow white like the snow on a TV screen with out the noise
flicker white light horizontal line swallowed into a tube into a small
white light going gone

I would like to reapear in COLLECTIVE CONSCIOUSNESS cause I am AQURIUS the
water bearer

nightmeres don't crackle like fire
I swallow the gibberish in like air
to burning lungs

SOUND
lots of it
High loud,
LOw soft
exsplosion
inplosion

TOGETHER\ALONE
bound by space & time

I feel
love|hate
Feelings|Thoughts
run wild rampant through me
Scream in awe
cause look whats happened
NO end no start
just you & I....
i & u
u&i
we&me
shalla lalla la
i'ts gotta start & end sometime ya know?


                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Tue Apr 16 21:39:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Holding space.
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 10:39:41 +0100

Hello Walter,

Thanks for commenting on my writings;


>
> And Steve (etc.)-- newly emerged from "reading only" with writing on
> hypnosis, NLP, and personal journey.  I wonder what it is like to have
> posted that here, and now awaiting a response?


You know Walter, in 18 months of posting to the internet [mostly alt.hypnosis
and alt.psychology.nlp] no-one has asked me how it *feels* to watch the
reactions to one's opinions.

The answer [like most of my stuff I guess :-)] is that I feel a sense
of great satisfaction and a wave of good, positive feelings whenever
my writings do some good for somebody, strike a chord or cause an intuitive
leap.

Part of my reason for lurking here rather than posting was that PSYBERNET
has always seemed to me to be a very positive, supportive forum with
friendly people genuinely interested in what others think; whereas
the main Usenet forums of alt.hypnosis and alt.psychology.nlp were like
a giant cauldron of hate, with flame after flame scorching out after anyone
and everyone who dared to post.

I became quite good after a while at directing my articles towards the
genuinely interested participants, mostly practising hypnotists and quite
a few published authors, by posting long , self-contained articles and
ignoring the endless sordid tides of rubbish from the skeptics and
cybterteurs.

Getting involved in such a flamewar inevitably means unfortunately that
courtesy, openness and hospitality towards other users quickly become
casualties of war; as time went by in alt.hypnosis and alt.psychology.nlp
an increasing number of the posts were from anonymous or bogus accounts,
or from people with no interest in discussing the hypnosis and NLP techniques
and every interest in discrediting people like Steve Parkhill - and so
gradually my own posts got more and more hostile, more and more adverserial
and less and less open.

I though many times of posting to PSYBERNET but it is very hard to take off
the Machiavelian hat and post open, friendly thoughts to a list full of
genuinely nice people when you're involved in a literary bloodbath; I
didnt want to pour out my anger and frustration on PSYBERNET, which is
likely what I would have done had I tried to sustain a schizophrenic-like
chinese wall in my mind between the cathedral of hate that alt.hypnosis has
become, and the friendly, inviting place that is PSYBERNET. In effect,
I used PSYBERNET as a kind of antidote to the negativity on Usenet; a place
to get some respite from the baying hounds and swarming vultures elsewhere.

Now alt.hypnosis and alt.psychology.nlp are no longer getting through to
my newsfeed, and the flamewar is over, at least for me. I have more time
to read PSYBERNET and other forums, and I am looking to apply the lessons
I have learned to new media such as New World Media, a server set up to
discuss the works of Noam Chomsky

at www.worldmedia.com

[And no, he's not 'anti-semitic'.]

If you read the various articles I have contributed there, you will I hope
understand my reluctance to post my opinions to PSYBERNET; they may be
in context and on topic to begin with, but the scope of them is such
[New World Order conspiracy, cures for cancer, love changes everything,
 etc.] that the discussions quickly press people's buttons and cause
 at best diversions and hijacks, at worst controversy and another
 literary bloodbath.

 Whereas I dont want to try and hijack PSYBERNET with my own ideas, I
 would by lying if I said I did not think that they are more important
 than the things which I have read about here - but then would not anyone
 think that of their own opinions?

 To round off then, I'll say what I always say when I'm asked how I feel
 about my contribution to cyberspace, although this is the first time I've
 been asked on the net;

 I would like everyone and anyone who finds my ideas interesting to read
 David Icke's book 'And the Truth shall set you free' which exposes
 the New World Order conspiracy.

 There, I've said it; but please folks, understand that if you ask me to
 defend my ideas & back them up here, I will do it - but I myself dont
 think it's either the right place for that or that it will add to the
 [considerable in my opinion] value of the list.

Walter said:

>I wonder how others
> respond to it -- even more how I might respond ( like this for now).

I didnt expect responses, even although Susan's gracious words touched me;
I would like PSYBERNET to be a place where we can share freely without needing
to get a response to feel vindicated or that we have gotten our 'strokes'
as Eric Berne put it ; that we lurkers have spoken up and said loudly

'Yes, we are enjoying the conference and we appreciate your efforts - you
are all good people and the efforts are welcome, interesting and useful;
please keep it up and thank you very much'

Would be a good thing to put in an FAQ, a plaque somewhere or Walter's
web page;

People of PSYBERNET, you are among friends here - please take this message
as a season ticket for the words
Thank You
Interesting
Encore
Me Too
etc.

when I dont have time to respond.

Best Regards

Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 17 01:19:53 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: 666 vs Beauty & the Beast
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:19:53 -0600

Dearest incarnation of Wicca,

        As for the number of the beast, I think that we can replace it with
the name of the beast - Laurel.

>Im sorry Walter that because of that you missed the humour in that
>sentence...it wasnt an aside. It was a joke.  I equate humour with
>intelligence which is why I doubt that Robert took it personally.

        Madame, you are indeed correct.

>Fred and the voices from the underground -- somewhat like the news

>I have been led to believe that there is order in chaos. I expect its the
>same with lists.
>Laurel draws a pentagram in salt, throws a little water here and there and
>places candles on the points.. there that ought to hold us Trace...

        At this point I enter with my cohort of Monks and chant the Kyrie.

>Who wants borders or limitations.. growth is impossible within them.

        Ah, but what of the borders of the pentagram?  Safety my cherished
one, safety!  Beware of wolves in sheeps' clothing.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 17 01:20:14 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Early morning breezes
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:20:14 -0600

A l'autre bout d'monde <-> A l'autre bout d'temps
     (At the other end of the world / At the other end of time)

Head bowed ...
     ... the weight of a past filled with too many years
         ... and tears
             ... and silence
                 ... that black virus
- j'en ai assez ... (I've had enough)
                     visions cast in shadow
                         a time and place removed
- a l'autre bout d'monde

Hands that speak in tongues of armour
welcoming and giving, never
remorseful
Hands that bridge time and space
with a promise of gentleness and fullness.


Reality intrudes ...
    ... the distance between hope
        ... and dream
- a l'autre bout d'monde
Reason conquers will
             ... a breached fortress
- et j'en ai peur

Those eyes swaddled in layers of thought
pierce to the very soul
Eyes touch and silence flees,
dreams and hope arise

- a l'autre bout d'temps

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 17 01:39:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Dancing around a fire...
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:39:24 -0600

WS>Metaphorically, there are several fires here, and several dances going
WS>on, so a lot of us are left in between fires, lost in the wilderness..
WS>
WS>Of course, what were are doing in the wilderness is quite amazing, and
WS>we're all having fun, but we are also quite lost.

        Indeed we are, Wilbur.  Have you or any of the others any ideas that
might serve as a collective theme?  I would be disappointed to lose what we
have gained, but I do know that we must also find a way to bind together in
order to survive as watering hole, an oasis, in the depths of cyberspace. Do
we need a *task* as described in Judith's post?

JB>It was fascinating to see the doers and the be-ers dance:-) or not. The
JB>doers kept asking what the point was and the be-ers would respond-
JB>being. The be-ers posted as if water coloring, playing and diverging.
JB>The doers didn't want to color and wanted to converge ala Kolb's
JB>learning style stuff. I loved it but then it allowed me to *be*. :-)
JB>Eventually the participants dwindled to only be-ers probably a result
JB>not the least of which was the anxiety - sort of like the doers throwing
JB>up their hands at the lack of something concrete.

        Intention. IntentionS. Dialogue. Control. Power. Release.

Robert de Cyberie

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From hoon@APK.NET Wed Apr 17 01:50:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: 666 vs Beauty & the Beast
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:50:10 -0400

>
>        As for the number of the beast, I think that we can replace it with
>the name of the beast - Laurel.
>
>
>        Ah, but what of the borders of the pentagram?  Safety my cherished
>one, safety!  Beware of wolves in sheeps' clothing.
>
>Robert de Cyberie
>

Robert,

I could be wrong, but we may have here a sheep in wolf's clothing.

Stephen

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From edbaud@SLVBBS.COM Wed Apr 17 05:01:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Fred Bauder <edbaud@SLVBBS.COM>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 12:01:10 EST

Dolores,

You adopt a pose of evil...

The point?

Simply to destroy?

I expect so...and you will probably succeed; but the rest of us,
especially the list-owner much cooperate.

Fred

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Wed Apr 17 08:33:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 21:33:01 +0100

Dolores,

You adopt a pose of evil...

The point?

Simply to destroy?

I expect so...and you will probably succeed; but the rest of us,
especially the list-owner much cooperate.



Fred..

Lighten up dearie

Dolores

(What do you think Wilbur...as its your role to cast me in different
guises..Shiva?)

She came, she saw, she was tempted -but decided he wasnt worth the effort.

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Wed Apr 17 10:27:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:27:33 -0500

Fred--For heavens sake, even I've been enjoying Laurel/Dolores' shadow game
(and I've been assured recently that I have no sense of humour--come to think
of it she probably thought that too).   Don't let us both be stick in the muds.
        Susan


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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Wed Apr 17 12:45:54 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:45:54 -0400

Alright, how about the role of Succubus?  (sp? Woman creature that sucks the
strength out of men..) or just plain old Temptress..?

I can't believe that Fred is that liberal minded.. How about Imp?  Or She -
Devil?  Whirling Dervish?

Fred,

I would conjecture that your attitude is what is already destroying this
listserv..  It's alright to wax poetic, just as long as we don't use the
word Devil?  Talk about PC speak nonsense..

Wilbur

At 09:33 PM 4/16/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Dolores,
>
>You adopt a pose of evil...
>
>The point?
>
>Simply to destroy?
>
>I expect so...and you will probably succeed; but the rest of us,
>especially the list-owner much cooperate.
>
>
>
>Fred..
>
>Lighten up dearie
>
>Dolores
>
>(What do you think Wilbur...as its your role to cast me in different
>guises..Shiva?)
>
>She came, she saw, she was tempted -but decided he wasnt worth the effort.
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 17 12:56:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Holding space.
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:56:52 -0600

Stephen,

        Thank you for the story.=20

>"There is space and then there is space; there is time and then there is=
 time."

...

>There is cyberspace and then there is cyberspace. Perhaps our catagories
>are not adequate.

        I was beginning to think that we were indeed wandering lost in the
desert like Moses, having fun to be sure, but lost none-the-less.  Then,
with your story, Tama's poetry, Is=E9's poems, Steven M.'s stories, and the
playful banter that abounds, I see that we are discovering this space as
well as each other.  Talk about a paradigm shift!  How can we define our
circles when we don't even know if the concept of circle is part of the
basic vocabulary we need to create.  Classical logic can't help us here as
that type of logic is predicated upon a version of reality that can't even
acknowledge our existence here.

        We're not lost.  We're dynamically alive in our reaching out with
hesitant words.  The dialogues will locate us in space, in relation to each
other (our being here defined in non-corporal terms.  While we spin these
threads into a web we build a home of sorts for this unique dimension of our
essential self.  I begin to doubt that the archetypal myths of our corporal
entity can encompass the psyche of a listserv group, a group that is not a
group, a list that refuses to be contained.

        No wonder that we feel disoriented.  Our notions of reality are
challenged, our beliefs of relation are in doubt (who amongst you have not
reacted to a story or poem as directed personally to you when it appears on
your screen for your eyes and ears?), our language is tentative.  Before we
can hope to identify a *task* to bring us together (looking outward --
objectifying), we need to dwell experientially together (a subjective *task*
-- looking inward at our relation, our essence of being).

        Perhaps you may think I've wandered too far here, so be it.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 17 12:57:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: cyber.illusions - plus
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:57:19 -0600

Is=E9>cyber.surrender

RdeC>   cyber.gender

Is=E9>Into the joy that is our giving
Is=E9>and the agony that is our need
Is=E9>Into the night that is our longing
Is=E9>and the day the gives us hope

RdeC>Je te pris en joie en te donnant mon esprit
RdeC>   not a physical giving
RdeC>   not a physical taking
RdeC>   thought the desire is real
RdeC>   as is the pain of desire denied=20

Is=E9>Into the desire that is between us
Is=E9>and knowledge that we are none
Is=E9>Into the surrender of the deep emotion
Is=E9>and the moment of our intent

RdeC>Je te chante en donnant mon esprit
RdeC>   knowing that you hear my song
RdeC>   sensing your soul's surrender
RdeC>   caressing your depths
RdeC>   accepting your desire's intent
=20
Is=E9>Into the miles that fold between us
Is=E9>and the time we span in jest
Is=E9>Into the silence of that weaving
Is=E9>is the substance of a dream

RdeC>Je te chuchote a travers l'espace de cyberie
RdeC>   distance and time
RdeC>   shadow and ghost
RdeC>   weft and weave
RdeC>   a whisper in your soul.
>
>
>(c) Is'e
>95.285.xx

Robert de Cyberie (c)
96.04.16

        Forgive the lack of accent marks. I fear that not all of your
systems can accept their transfer succesfully.

Robert

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Wed Apr 17 21:39:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: new website & invitation
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:39:08 +0100

Psybernauts, Walter:

Concerning one of the many fires around which we are gathering on
Psyber-L...  I'm delighted to be able to point you in the direction of my
HipBone Games website at:

>>>   http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

The HipBone Games are my attempt to devise "playable" forms of the Glass
Bead Game which Hermann Hesse describes in his Nobel-winning novel,
*Magister Ludi*, and if any of you know and like the book, you'll probably
find this site and its various links interesting -- while if you're
interested in my Games, I'd certainly recommend you pick up a copy of the
book...

*

The Games you'll find at the HipBone site are the kind we've been playing
on this list, and include the "Bear Madonna" Dream Game, which is a sample
of the possible use my Games can be put to in dream analysis...  and while
my recent Game with Steve Calhoun on Psyber-L is not up at this particular
site, you can access it at his web site, beginning at:

>>>   http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html

*

Please feel free to contact me if you'd like to be included as a dreamer,
observer or player, in a subset of Psyber-L, one of Walter's "small groups"
which will soon be playing another Dream Game or two...

Best wishes to all,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

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From tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ Wed Apr 17 21:43:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Bonfire dance
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 21:43:59 +1200

Hi
I'd be right in for a bit of a dance around the Fire now!!
out under or floating with the stars
warm blood flowing pumping through the body
communial sharing of energy & excitement
Ya hooing into the night
warming cold hands by the fire
contemplating life
joining hands with one another
peace
communion
tales songs poems
inner convictions let out
exsploring the depth of soul
finding the child with in
I'm still happy to be just a boy
Tama


                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"

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From tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ Wed Apr 17 22:18:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: More Poetry from Tama.
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 22:18:06 +1200

Here's some poetry I wrote

It's so hard being cool
I feel like areal sentimental fool
constricted,  held tight in a straight jacket
I'm just an aquintance not a Lover
she gets drunk
flirts with funk
she wants you Kate
I try to see the amusing side
keep occuppied
feel happy
But it's false
should of gone up to you & been straight
Hey I like you
but I feel like retreating back into a shell
somewhere warm & dark
where no Siren can sing to me.

Well that poem was about a situation where I went to Watch Kate & her
friend Claudia in a comedy competition,  they got free beer & got rahther
drunk,  Claudia was all over kate,  all Kates attention was on Claudia, I
felt left out.I like my attention I must admit,  I had my mothers fully
till I was about four then along came a young man who she got together
with.Don't be silly Tama,  Freud was a bit under delveloped can't blame
much to child hood.But one of my fears is definetly not being included in
groups & being cold on the outside.

Already involved with you
took just one kiss
I miss
weak you let me through
I huffed & I puffed & broken into
Intense sensual delight
I felt your silky smooth tender skin
tasted of your lips
carresed your neck & cheek
looked into your eyes
even sucked from your breast
vunerable
but let down
you had to go
I'm not included
That's one of my big fears
being on the outside
can I come in for a while
or should I just
let go
Heal
stop being complicated
simple life
it's interesting experience
but feel safer on my own no way to be let out...

Well that was a bit sad huh,
well actually I meet kate today & we talked in the botanical gardens by a
fountain
 watching the sun go down,  laughing,  resting on each other
    I did not retreat but said I wanted to stop stuffing around with each
other & stop
       Freinds contemplative but she could turn it on & off like a tap
heart controlled by brain
          not me,  casual involvement nah but she did happen to mention
that we could have a drink
             sometime & have sex
              is'nt that strange
                I'll wait until the dust settles
                   could be fun
                      shalla la la
                          ha ha
                              !


I need myself
Plummet the depth
find the missing side
let it out
I still want need
feels like-me
of course
Intimate
Commited
together


Need water
fire is too hot to fickle
hot then smokey
take the air away & it's out
water
floating
swimming
tossed & turned on waves
rideing the high to shore
screaming in excitement
I wanna share the waters
cool
carm
tranqil
ripples
to see the side that's me


Hopping from rock to rock
tide splashing against wall
sand wet & springy
fiddleing fumbling on flippers
walking backwards not to fall over
jump in paddling ou to sea
cold rush wave head
buffeted by wave after wave
finally out there relaxing
down looking around
tasting salt
moved by currents
big wave coming
gonna catch me a ride on it
yea ha arrrghgh
such adrenalin
on top of it
rushing towards beach
-rush me-
sand soft wow


OK
That stuff written last night-except the one about in the gardens.
later.
lets make some space & inhabit it!!



                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"

_______________________________________________________________
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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Thu Apr 18 01:39:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: -=-=-=-=  Psybernet Mailing List: Description -=-=-=-=
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 13:39:59 GMT

-=-=-=-=  Psybernet Mailing List  -=-=-=-=

Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the effects
of email groups and lists on group life and the psyche.  The list is a
starting point for professional depth psychological work on the net.

Topics include:

The art of leadership in communication networks.  Creating
communication environments.  Gender issues.  Imagination, metaphors,
archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the
unconscious.  Special focus on how these psychological phenomena
relate to cyberspace.

Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience of
the medium.  We voice that learning.  Forming relationships of a
collegial nature around our psychological, net interests is an
important part of the work.

The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which includes
psychological professional services on the net such as one-to-one
Personal Exploration and professionally facilitated email groups. The
list is also a place for professional collaboration in the development
of ethical depth work of this nature. Announcements about Psybernet
services will be made in this list.

The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman, no censorship or editing
has taken place.  Discussion of how the list is facilitated is
integral to its purpose.  Psyber-L is archived and these are available
to members with an index psyber-l command to the listserv.

To subscribe to PSYBER-L, send the a command to:
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the BODY of e-mail:
SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname

For example:  SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith

Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive confirmation
request, then an acknowledgment, followed by a welcome message.

To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to:
 LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM  In the body of the email
 write:   SIGNOFF  PSYBER-L

Last updated   31 March, 1996
Owner:  Walter Logeman  <walterl@chch.planet.org.nz>

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu Apr 18 05:09:04 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dancing around a fire...
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:09:04 GMT

And I wonder at the cycle of it all as you, Robert, describe my experience of
the dialogue research project.
 <       Intention. IntentionS. Dialogue. Control. Power. Release.

Robert de Cyberie>

And I wonder at analogues which can be juxtaposed against our experience
here, and for me it is Louis & Clark, and Balboa, and Vasco de Gamma-threads
as tributaries some take other's stop to watch the flow, still others
document the journey. When adventuring, there is the adventure, the
excitementanticipation of the aroundthecornerness of it all
OTOH it may be like panning for gold-ya gotta sift a lot of stuff to find
one's gold nugget:-)
And with the poetry here I've struck it rich...
Judith

--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu Apr 18 05:13:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dancing around a fire...
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:13:28 GMT

<
I trust this effort helps to create a secure place in which to be lost
(thanks Judith).


Walter>

And to you walter. Great being *lost* here;-)
Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu Apr 18 05:22:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 17:22:46 GMT

Entering late in the second act to find the roles well cast;-)
Judith, in the role of audience

<Laurel,

>
>Since I have been cast in role of devil here, (thank you so so much Wilbur,
>- I would have hated to sacrifice the scapegoat on the lawn under a full
>moon) I have risen once more from the sulphrous, stinking pits of hell..to
>post.

The entire point of nominating you as the devil was so that you would be the
scapegoat, and so that I could avoid that role..  ;-P

Hey, I'm not the scapegoat!

baaahhh... baaawwwahhhh!  (ooopppsss!)

<SNIP>

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)

---------------------------------------

--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Thu Apr 18 06:28:30 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dancing around a fire...
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:28:30 GMT

Hi  Robert, Wilbur,

> WS>Metaphorically, there are several fires here, and several dances going
> WS>on, so a lot of us are left in between fires, lost in the wilderness.

I see three fires, and an area lit up in the middle -- do the
Australian aboriginals have such a dance -- I recall something from my
schooling there -- a Corroboree?  (vague).  I don't feel lost -- I
just posted up the list description which is always available via GET
command etc -- but thought it might be good to post again.  I think it
points the way -- or describes what we are up to  &  invites us to go
beyond to other more focussed tasks.

Robert, I think you said a while back:  lets do such a *group*.  I am
finding this space interesting, new and occupying my energy -- somehow
I want to focus here for a bit.  Though I have projects brewing and
others may too.

One thing I think we have only touched on is the fee for a group.
This whole area of charges on the Internet are such a challenge -- I
would welcome a satisfactory discussion on that with regard to
Psybernet in this list.  Professional work on the net is one of the
fires we are dancing around.

Robert:
>         Indeed we are, Wilbur.  Have you or any of the others any ideas that
> might serve as a collective theme?  I would be disappointed to lose what we
> have gained, but I do know that we must also find a way to bind together in
> order to survive as watering hole, an oasis, in the depths of cyberspace. Do
> we need a *task* as described in Judith's post?

We are doing a task at this moment I think -- and on topic with the
list description.  The metaphor of Dance and Fires has come to us!  Is
this not to explore metaphor and imagination especially as they relate
to cyberspace?

Perhaps what you are thinking is that it needs to be Defined as a TASK
-- perhaps so we can ALL focus on it, to "bind together"  . . . . I
don't think so (at this point -- though the question is of strong
interest)  those who like this thread -- this probe -- will do it --
it is a case of survival of the fittest meme, (theme).  Thus I like
the idea of letting the group's work emerge, but not willy-nilly!  The
list description is a part of the forming of the holding space --
perhaps the most important thing we have for the temenos here.  My
role is another -- (my ego and unconscious stuff etc too god help us)
-- one part of the role as facilitator . . .  like a "traditional
moderator"  is to work towards keeping the group on topic.  I am a
strong advocate for the focus as stated in the list description.

Let me say a more about the list description . . .

The initial impulse was to set up a list like Group Psychotherapy (
an excellent list BTW )  However to speak _here_ of off line work is
one thing, more interesting, an adventure, an exploration, is how work
with group and psyche might work on the Internet!  A list that covers
that (to some extent) is NetDynam -- an interesting list IMO -- and I
am looking forward to the writing that is being produced from that
list as a result of Matt's suicide (the founder).  The list
description of that list differs in many ways from Psyber-L -- one is
that it states that it is "emphatically not for psychotherapy "  (I
have not got it in front of me -- ill check later)  -- Psyber-L  this
is not _for_ therapy but for _experiential learning_.  What we do here
is the material we study!   It is a matter of emphasis, there is no
exclusion of personal material, yet this is not a therapy space -- it
is a learning space.  This is really in keeping with many learning
traditions in depth work, training analysis in the analytical schools
and psychodrama training tradition as well.

There is plenty list description to indicate a preference for
_modality_;  depth, psyche, imagination and thus avoid the worst
modality wars.  While the list is not Jungian or firmly entrenched in
any school  -- it will be more attractive to Jungians than say,
cognitive behavioural therapists -- yet all are welcome.

A last point:  The list aims at exploring professional work on the
net, and being a starting point for that.  This clearly distinguishes
this list from the 'self-help" traditions on and off the net.  At the
same time just how psyche & group work can be ethically done here --
or even what it is called is not settled.

I hope my consciousness & enthusiasm for what Judith called the
"superordinate intention" , also has been called the "prime directive"
and simply the list description, can be _shared_ .    The description
BTW has evolved over three years and while I have written it I have
altered it as a result of the discussion on this list (mostly fine
tuning).  I am less inclined to do that again -- this is what people
have signed up for -- and there is plenty of room in cyberspace for
other developments.

I trust this effort helps to create a secure place in which to be lost
(thanks Judith).


Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Thu Apr 18 10:50:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: More Poetry from Tama.
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 22:50:41 GMT

> lets make some space & inhabit it!!

Tama -- you do that.  I write about edges and you inhabit that space
-- so boldly!  Wow.




Walter

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Thu Apr 18 12:17:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:17:02 -0600

Psyberians,

        It is strange how life leads us down certain paths at special times.
When I read the following contribution by John (XMEFF), I again became
convinced that there is no such thing as coincidence.

RdeC>>Morning is truly a private time, a time for disclosure to one's own
RdeC>>self.  I appreciate the <<tableau>> that you paint as coming from a
RdeC>>deep place.

XM>Part of it comes from early remembrances triggered by recent events and
XM>part of it comes from, oddly enough, the art and mechanics of research
XM>grant proposal writing, not my own but something that could be
XM>conceivable.  There is the idea that some species of birds may go
XM>extinct if the noise of modern technology, things like bulldozers,
XM>shotguns, etc., encroaches on their space.  If you rely heavily on
XM>auditory communication when light conditions are dim and you can't hear
XM>a mating call, how do you find your mate?

        Since mating is a biological activity, it only makes sense that the
biological senses should highlight the valued activity of survival.  The
noise that drowns the songs of mating also dooms the species unable to find
their mates.

        This mating (biological) makes me wonder about on-line
relationships.  Can we consider that the aspect of self that comes to the
fore on-line is that which is not biological, but intellectual and/or beyond
the intellect (a higher plane of evolution)?  As such, the matings that
occur on-line could then be complete without a biological imperative for
completion.  We are indeed several beings with agendas that are often in
direct conflict.  We are not our cells -- our cells could not be conscious
of the need for art, poetry, math -- they value and understand a cellular
world, cellular needs.  We are not our body -- our body values the messy
world of phlegm, feces, and sex.  We are not our mind -- the fears, the
dreams, the problems, the ideology with which our mind occupies itself. We
are all of these and none of these.

        Remove a sense (sight) and we remain ourselves.  Remove a thought, a
belief and still we are intact as ourselves.  That which we are is more than
the sum total of all the cells and all the mental activity travering though
our synapses.  Yet we can't deny our biological, intellectual, and spiritual
aspects -- in fact, we need them.  We need the morning and the songs of birds.

XM>. . . a deep place?  I would think of it as the mixing bowl.

RdeC>>I agree, the words don't have to be true.  But, I do think that
Rdec>>their inspiration and source do find their roots in authenticity.

XM>Robert, I can't find myself disagreeing with what you say here.  That's
XM>good, but I still have that inner drive to make distinctions.
        <snip>
XM>When we've gone as far as we can go, how do we answer the question:
XM>"What is the nature of the world?"   I can ask a similar question:
XM>"What is music?"  Is it patterns of information expressed through the
XM>interaction of energy and matter?  Now, what is matter at its most basic
XM>level?

        I find myself needing to echo you.  Music is not just the
mathematical value of soundwaves.  Music is dependant upon the receptor as
much as the transmitter.  Music is more than the notes.  Music defies being
defined.  How are we then able to make distinctions?  What is music to one
human is noise to another, is silence to yet another; yet the sense of music
is understood without being taught, without being intellectualized.

        I have rambled on again.  I wonder if these rambling have any value
to the group?  I have this habit of spinning webs from bits of incandescent
light.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Thu Apr 18 12:17:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: new website & invitation
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 18:17:22 -0600

Charles,

        I'd like to take you up on your offer:

>Please feel free to contact me if you'd like to be included as a dreamer,
>observer or player, in a subset of Psyber-L, one of Walter's "small
>groups" >which will soon be playing another Dream Game or two...

        I'd be willing to take on any role that could use my participation.
I haven't yet read the book *Magister Ludi*, but I will do so at the
soonest.  Please let me know of any developments regarding the next Dream Game.

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From CRandow@CHCH.COMPUTERLAND.CO.NZ Thu Apr 18 17:57:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: An email story you might like
From: CHC-Dan Randow <CRandow@CHCH.COMPUTERLAND.CO.NZ>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 00:57:26 -0500

Text item: Text_1


     Hello Psyber-L and may I take this opportunity to congratulate
     you on your burgeoning numbers.

     A brief intro:

     Because of my other commitments and interests, I am not an active
     participant in the list but have, however been a subscriber
     (mostly a lurker) for over a year. One of the 'interests' I refer
     to is my friendship with Walter - whom you know. Sometimes
     'friendship' does not seem the right word as much as
     'co-explorers navigating currents much more powerful than
     ourselves' (what do you think, Walt?). Tonight, Walter and I are
     going rock climbing and I'm looking forward to that.

     In my work I help to 'bend' computers to my clients (people and
     organisations) but sometimes I still get to do a bit of my last
     job - bending people to computers.

     The story:

     Yesterday I trained 5 people for half a day in the use of cc:Mail
     (internal only). In the first 5 minutes it was revealed that all
     were pretty comfortable with keyboard, mouse, windows etc so I
     briefly showed them how to send and read mail and then sat down
     at a PC myself.

     We then created a veritable mail storm. I addressed all my mail
     to everyone and they quickly sussed 'reply to all'. People
     discussed anything and everything and also asked me many
     questions like 'how do i...?' which I answered to all. They all
     started demonstrating that they were using new features like
     changing font and colour plus cc: etc.

     After a brief time, I asked them (via email) whether they wished
     to return to f2f or carry on the course via email. They all said
     email and so we carried on. Despite a few "whew!" breaks and a
     couple of issues we addressed in f2f, the rest of the training
     happened via email - all in one small room. We addressed 'use of
     the software' issues plus quite a few 'effective use of email'
     and 'what is "right"/"wrong" in this new environment' and net
     issues.

     It was a heap of fun and they seemed very warmed up to the idea
     of email as they left. It feels good to be doing this for a job!

     Anyone doing similar things?

     I'm off to see my beautiful kids now.

     Dan

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Thu Apr 18 20:50:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cat amongst . . .
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:50:46 +0200

John said, sampling from me:

>>>
>From a pure logical point of view I transformed your >statement into a
request if I did understand right, giving the >example of . . .

I'm sorry, I really don't feel like responding likewise.
<<<
Your feelings are ok in that context. Disappointment may lead to mistrust.

>>>
>Here I'm not sure what is meant by "communicating" . . .

Entities communicate.
<<<
Sounds tautologous; mind to explain your 'entity' concept ??

>>>
>My personal feeling is simply that they type along in this list >without any
regard to how their linguistic behavior may feel >to others - bursting into
explanations instead, if responses >don't match expectations. <sigh>

Of course, but with yourself excluded.
<<<
Nothing to admire; I try hard, but can't avoid it altogether.

>>>
>And this, perhaps, led you to the abbreviature "Language is a >lie"?  In
this context I  quite understand, thank you.

What are you tripping on, Mila?
<<<
Thank you again for the joy flash when I understood your words within their
appropriate context you then provided, John.

Mila

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Thu Apr 18 21:13:35 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: an offering
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:13:35 +0100

So poetry seems to be one of the list topics these days...

An offering, then:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



For Helen





One book is like another.  This book strikes you
like lightning forking the exact pathways of the nerves.

Sun entering a bridal chamber is not more subtle.
Thunder filling the cavity of the skull is not more sure.
Needles along the meridians are not more deftly
placed than these words: for this is indeed poetry,
alien, blind -- mapping you closely as the constellation
of your birth.  You may fork left here, make those
choices, vary yourself along a myriad of parameters,
hesitate, falsify, deceive, stumble: but this voice,
these words arriving from Hopkins or Rilke, Yeats
or Jeffers, these precision musics precede you
as final cause predicts and plots all processes of life.

We are struck not once, Helen -- but a library of times.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Thu Apr 18 23:10:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language and communities
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 13:10:36 +0200

Robert,
thank you for expressing your enthusiasm. For the experts, I may add some tech
remarks on aiding behavior on *true* therapeutic lists.
Withdrawal in FtF comm isn't real silence; facial expression gives enough direc-
ting cues to discourage the unwanted behavior.
As most people are conditioned to adapt to wishes of their entourage, they're
accustomed to receive a steady flow of averbal cues from which to select for use
in own development.
Even if they receive ignoring, those ignoring give subtle hint as to why they
ignore; so the victims of this behavior have a chance to use the hints in their
development
On lists, there are no such cues, however. No one is even able to give account
to her/himself what to remark en passant about msgs s/he's not going to respond
to.
Thus, complete absence of response does *never* tell the neglected poster how to
adapt; it doesn't contribute to her/his development.
Absence of any prodding whatever can be construed
as expectancy of the list members "let's see what comes next from that buddy" -
and *thus* as a freedom to utter *anything* that barely fits into the topical

frame of the list.
As freedoms can best be illustrated by extreme examples of what they entail,
the faerie dream construction topic came to mind.

>>>
       I like the idea of a faerie-dream (something tells me that Walter
would enjoy this wuite a bit as well).  This might be what is needed by some
in their exploration of the *psychology* of a listserv.

<<<
Glad to agree with you about the topic's own right in our list.

>>>   And what does this alter-ego cat do to impersonate moi-meme?
   And what does this alter-ego cat do to impersonate moi-meme?
(oops - double pasting)
Well - its silk-velveteen touch makes it already king of our household in reali-
ty - so how do you feel as a wonderful soft-skinned king ??
Bonnes pensees a vous,
Mila

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu Apr 18 23:10:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:10:51 GMT

<  I have rambled on again.  I wonder if these rambling have any value
to the group?  I have this habit of spinning webs from bits of incandescent
light.

Robert de Cyberie>

Music to my eyes Robert...

judith humming as she begins her day

--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 19 02:30:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Newcomer's High!
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 08:30:49 -0600

Hi...
Welcome to the list.  I am also a newcomer but I wanted to reply to your
interest in psychodrama.  I am also very interested in it, being an
amateur thespian.  I think that tremendous growth can come out of it.
Also, another way I have found to access my spirituality has been through
breath work, or body-centered therapy.  I realize that as I was growing
up I held my breath alot, and breathed very shallowly from my chest.  Now
that I breathe from my diaphragm (something we all learned from drama,
but I had only used to project), I feel much safer and much closer to my
spiritual self. I found that psychology provided me with the insight, but
did not make me feel any safer.  Safety is more a matter of faith and
spirituality.
BTW, I am first generation American, my family is German, and I am the
first to go to college.  I'm getting a Master's in Counseling in May, and
then entering a doctoral program in Human Resource Development.  I live
in Colorado.  I used to live in New York.  I've traveled to Europe many
times, although I've never been to your country--the closest is Sweden.
Nice to meet you.
Barbara

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Fri Apr 19 02:32:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language and communities
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:32:12 -0400

At 01:10 PM 4/18/96 +0200, you wrote:
>Robert,

>thank you for expressing your enthusiasm. For the experts, I may add some tech
>remarks on aiding behavior on *true* therapeutic lists.

>Withdrawal in FtF comm isn't real silence; facial expression gives enough
>directing cues to discourage the unwanted behavior.

On the other hand, the lack of a face also prevents the nuances that can be
expressed when there is a face.. the lack of immediacy, the loss of full
human emotion..

As human's, our primary method of communication is face to face, we learned
very early on that our mother's face provided sustenance..  We learned to
read the nuance.. nuance that can only be alluded to via the typed word..

Sometimes the flash of a smile or the twist of the brow is enough to show
the attitude of the person .. Perhaps the suicide that has been discussed a
bit would have been avoided if someone could have seen his face..
Discussion via typing requires a great deal of of very specific training and
emotional disconnection..  There aren't many people that are capabile of
expressing the full depth of emotion via the written word.  If there were,
then we wouldn't celebrate that that can.

As someone that has spent time with people that write for a living, and
written a thing or two, I can venture the opinion that expression of emotion
in written words requires a great deal of effort and disconnection.  The
slowing down and self examination to get just the right wording, to catch
the proper nuance, the repeated practice, feels a lot like working out the
theme to a piece of music..

The expression provides a release, but perhaps the following example will
make clear what I'm trying to express..

I worked in Paris for 3 months a couple of years ago, and since I speak
German already, and used to listen to my mother speak Luxembourgish, I
figured that if I practices total immersion in the language I'd be able to
eventually absorb the language.  (pretty hard to do when you are writing
software in English during the day..)  Anyway, separated from my family, my
daughter, I watched French television at night, and eventually my need for
human connection brought the meaning of French to me.

But on the flight back, I watched "Man Without A Face" and was totally blow
away.  I was sitting in first class, crying like a baby..  Just on the
strength of being able to connect in my native tongue, I floated away and
lost control..

So being able to reach out and make the human connection via the keyboard is
possible, but it doesn't reach the same level as full human involvement does.

(SuperTramp still sounds great as a background to this.. "Take The Long Way
Home.")

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri Apr 19 02:53:53 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Newcomer's High!
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:53:53 GMT

On 17 Apr 96 19:57:16 +0200, "Pajunen Sami MERIKOSKI"
<sami.pajunen@tiimi.merikoski.fi> wrote:

* Dear Sir, Walter,

I tried to send this message through listserve to PSYBER-L but
couldn't quite
manage it. If you'd be so kind as to forward it, I'd be most
grateful...

 Yours, Sami Pajunen

**

Hi There Fellow Psyberians!

As I am new to this list, physically - and to all other lists BTW -
I'd like to
make an announcement.

First of all I'd like to thank you, each and every one of you, Fellow
Psyberians, for your rich contribution to this list. It has been
important to me
to see all this discussion evolve here.

I am a member of one philosophical society and we had just a meeting
there some
two weeks ago where we decided to enlarge our ongoing discussion to
net. This
was very important decision to this society of ours, and it was much
because of
my positive experiences in this net and in this Psyber-space of yours
(as a
lurker...), that this decision came to being.

Secondly, I thank you for this opportunity to join in and have space
for myself.
I have waited a long time for a thread of conversation, that I could
feel as my
own. And when I read Susan's ...on civility and language..., I felt
that time is
ripe for me to enter...

Thirdly, I am grateful of the opportunity to discuss with you, as I
feel that
you are in so many ways superior to myself, and together we might
create
something unique, something different, something positively applicable
to our
everyday lives.

So a brief introduction: I am finnish male psychologist, age 30
something. I
work in a rehabilitation and research center mainly doing group-work
myself. My
main interest is at this moment in psychodrama (I am a
psychodramatist-to-be)
and it's methods of spiritual growth. That's why I subscribed. I'm
also fund of
Jung, Assagioli and all the Great Thinkers, and I've practiced a kind
of
raja-yoga for 12 years. I am a semi-classical composer and enjoy Arts
very much.

I'll welcome all new ideas relating to Growth and Work (as
Ouspensky/Gurdjieff)
defined it).


Yours spaciously,

Sami (pron. sah-me)



email: Sami.Pajunen@tiimi.merikoski.fi

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From west@PAVILION.CO.UK Fri Apr 19 02:57:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Brevity
From: marcus west <west@PAVILION.CO.UK>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 10:57:44 -0400

Hello,

I switched on to receive 326 e-mails from this list - which shows how
frequently I log on and am finally moved to post a message, having lurked
for some good long time.  I would read all that was posted but there were so
many words, so much thinking and theorising going on.  I couldn't find the
heart of it.

I would like to know how may people are on the list.  Do you give out that
kind of information Walter ?

Yours briefly,


Marcus

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 19 03:15:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language and communities
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 09:15:29 -0600

Wilbur,
Your comments on emotion and e-mail were very interesting.  There are
times when the lack of emotional nuance can be helpful.  For example, my
sister and I have a very difficult time communicating with each other
because we have so much baggage.  But on e-mail, we can say what we need
to without interruption, and plainly, and it's easier to believe without
reading any nuances into it.  Our first real, deep, info sharing happened
on e-mail, and I don't think could have happened FtF.
Interesting?
Barbara

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From spferris@FRONTIER.WILPATERSON.EDU Fri Apr 19 03:50:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: -=-=-=-= Psybernet Mailing List: Description -=-=-=-=
From: Sharmila Pixy Ferris <spferris@FRONTIER.WILPATERSON.EDU>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 11:50:09 -0400

I have been reading with interest the discussion on the nature of
language, characteristics of cybercommunication and enjoying the poetry
in this group over the past month. The "lurker" theme has been particularly
entertaining, and I've enjoyed seeing so many lurkers come out --so much
so that I'm joining them!.  Anyway, this message is occasioned by Walter's
recent posting describing the nature of the
list and elucidating topics. I think that such services do much to ensure
the continuity of a group that's necessarily somewhat fragmented and
diffuse.  Just one of the many features I like about this listserv
--thanks Walter. A topic I did not see mentioned was that of culture.
The issue of the unique culture of cyberspace is a really interesting one
that seems to be well within the purview of this listserv.  I'd like to
throw it out to you all: what do you think.

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri Apr 19 07:05:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:05:27 GMT

Hi  Robert & all,


You wrote:

>         I find myself needing to echo you.  Music is not just the
> mathematical value of soundwaves.  Music is dependant upon the receptor as
> much as the transmitter.  Music is more than the notes.  Music defies being
> defined.  How are we then able to make distinctions?  What is music to one
> human is noise to another, is silence to yet another; yet the sense of music
> is understood without being taught, without being intellectualized.

And then you ask:

> I wonder if these rambling have any value
> to the group?  I have this habit of spinning webs from bits of incandescent
> light.


Music -- Stephen may tell you, has been a way of speaking of what we
do here.  It is not a theme that just idly drifts by!  The flow here
lends , even demands to be seen as music & dance.  We are listening to
the Song of the Dawn. Your post is a note in the score, and harmonises
with our themes.  There are no coincidences, just as you speak of
music / noise Judith does so using the metaphor of sifting through
sand for gold and striking it rich with the poetry here.

It is time for fires in the northern hemisphere -- beltane -- may day
-- and we have them here (in Psyber-L ) , with dance, music and poems.

_Through_ the content, to the themes & the patterns make a song & a
dance.

There is a rhythm too between the making music & dancing and listening
to the music & watching.

writing & reading

voicing & listening

performance & audience

lost & secure

judging & accepting

belonging & being on the outside

in the circle & out of the circle  (or pentagram!)


Walter

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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Fri Apr 19 09:50:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Newcomer's High!
From: "Steven B. Hoath, M.D." <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:50:50 -0400

>On 17 Apr 96 19:57:16 +0200, "Pajunen Sami MERIKOSKI"
><sami.pajunen@tiimi.merikoski.fi> wrote:

>My main interest is at this moment in psychodrama (I am a
>psychodramatist-to-be) and it's methods of spiritual growth.

Over the past year, I have been become convinced that online interactions in
cyberspace can be looked at as a powerful form of psychodrama.  I'm
primarily talking here of online conversations using Mirc type
software...email, of course, is a slower version of this type of
communication, so I suspect that we're talking about a continuum...letter
writing ===> email ===> online interactive "chats".   In general, the word
"chat" is a poor choice for the potential I've experienced of using
cyberspace for constructive role playing.  This potential seems to be
limited only by one's imagination and his/her choice of partners.  There
are, of course, many issues relating to deception and the possibility of
using cyberspace (psyberspace) for emotional and/or spiritual harm as well
as for positive growth...not much different from real life in this regard.

In an earlier post I tried to convey my personal experience in cyberspace
through the form of a story...which was more truth than fiction.  One of the
points of the story was to convey the degree of bonding and intimacy
achievable via this medium.  There also seems to be a pioneer spirit among
many of the people I've met in cyberspace...a recognition that this medium
places a premium upon the use of the imagination...that it is a new type of
interpersonal communication which is in a state of active growth and
exploration.

>I'll welcome all new ideas relating to Growth and Work (as
>Ouspensky/Gurdjieff)
>defined it).

I'm intrigued that you relate the psychological aspects of cyberspace to the
work of Ouspensky and Gurdjieff.  This may be a very fruitful area of study.
In fact, I suspect that the comparison of the structure of cyberspace and
the structure of the mind is more than a simple analogy.  The authors you
quote had some very interesting approaches to modeling time, for example.
These models have application to both physics and psychology.  (If you are
interested, the British psychologist Maurice Nicoll's book entitled "Living
Time" is a good introduction to this area.)  I believe it is likely that our
personal experience of time and the way we model or process time
perceptually is closely connected to the way we perceive ourselves
physically and spiritually.  Any thoughts in this area by the group?

Full of questions,


The Rover

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 19 11:13:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 17:13:33 -0600

>FOLLOW THAT STAR---A CYBERSTORY

        I find many threads here that parallel the story of my corporal
essence.  The search in philosophic tomes, the search in music, the search
in the faces of countless people met on the roads of North America while
hitch-hiking, the search within relationship and family.  This bard, too,
found the heady spaces of Cyberia, and found many faces of himself.

SH>Still the rover was discontent.  He realized that his constantly
SH>changing cyberform never approximated his mortal guise.  In fact, the
SH>rover realized that he steadfastly avoided translating reality into
SH>cyberspace and he wondered why.

        Interesting imagery here that raises a question:  Are we immortal
beings here (our words are archived)?  That the *rover* "avoided translating
reality into cyberspace,"  raises another question:  What is it about the
self we find in this dimension that is not *real*?  As you pointed out
Stephen, we are constantly changing our being taking on many different
faces.  Yet, each of these faces is a reflection, a mirror if you will, of
that which of the being that I am, the being that you are.

        One day one weighs 15 lbs more than one weighed two seasons in the
past.  One is then defined with the reality of those extra pounds.  One
loses those pounds and five more besides.  Does one then lose a part of our
*reality* and become less of who we are?  One loses a leg -- is one the
less?  One loses some of the ability to hear, to see -- yet still the being
remains intact.  I can't seem to accept the fact that without a f2f
dimension, I can't have reality (blind people do exist and are real and do
sense the reality of their being).

SH>He also realized he was experimenting with the bounds of his
SH>imagination...with the forbidden and hidden aspects of his personality.
        Therein lies the attraction and power of cyberspace.  It is
precisely this that will allow this medium to help us work with the psyche.

SH>Her words sang with imagination and a bubbling stream of humor.  The
SH>rover became afraid.  He was not stupid nor was he naive.  In all his
SH>journeys through cyberspace he had studiously
SH>avoided the entanglements of mixing real life with his constantly
SH>changing cyberself.  Still, the mermaid was an undeniable attraction.

        Cybersex, cyberrelationship, cybermating.  It is real.

>More than this, however, the rover came to realize what he had dreamed so
>long ago.  He realized that his longing could only be satisfied by joining
>with another...that by himself he was incomplete.

        That such a revelation could be occasionned by the wanderings in
cyberia is usseful to those who would help guide those needing to make the
same conceptual discoveries.

SH>The rover discovered that all his imagined transformations in cyberspace
SH>had only served to make real his innermost essence...his central
SH>self...and it was this self which longed to be shared.
                <snip>
SH>The rover became willing to be vulnerable...he became willing to be
SH>hurt.

        Walter, I hope that this story gives us some ideas about directions
that we could travel together as a _list_, as an unbound circle.  Do we dare
to be vulnerable and hurt?  Do we dare to discover the self at this deeper
level that is not limited by biology?

        Stephen, thanks for the story of this particular Cyberian rover.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 19 14:03:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Newcomer's High!
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:03:13 -0600

Salutations to both Pajunen and Barbara,

P>I am a member of one philosophical society and we had just a meeting
P>there some two weeks ago where we decided to enlarge our ongoing
P>discussion to net. This was very important decision to this society of
P>ours, and it was much because of my positive experiences in this net and
P>in this Psyber-space of yours (as a lurker...), that this decision came
P>to being.

        I'd be very interested in hearing how the *net* experiences develop
with your philosophical society.  I'd be willing to learn more of your
group's focus and vision.  Perhaps you'd be willing to share some of this
information with me, even if off-list.
>

P>Thirdly, I am grateful of the opportunity to discuss with you, as I
P>feel that you are in so many ways superior to myself, and together we
P>might create something unique, something different, something positively
P>applicable to our everyday lives.

        Here, I must disagree.  If anything, this assembly called Psyber-l
has shown us that there is no distinction that would entitle any one person
to be a *superior* being.  We are different and we are beginning to revel in
our diversity.  And, as you note, we are indeed engaged in building.

B>Safety is more a matter of faith and spirituality.

        And what can this place/space/time do to support/encourage/develop a
sense of safety so that all can grow spiritually?

B>There are times when the lack of emotional nuance can be helpful.
                <snip>
B>on e-mail, we can say what we need to without interruption, and plainly,
B>and it's easier to believe without reading any nuances into it.

        This vignette about your conversation with your sister points to
some very real advantages where saftey is ensured, safety for the psyche of
the participants and safety for the message.

        Welcome to both of you.

Robert de Cyberie

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 19 14:03:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Language and communities
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:03:23 -0600

Mila,

        I should have guessed that I would note have been able to hide the
fact that I, like my alter-ego cat, have an abundance of silken hair that
protects my complete body (Mila, your psychic powers are formidable).  Is he
dark haired like me?  Is he quiet and sure yet sensitive?

        That I should be king.  Do I hold court, give favour, suffer the
weight of responsibility?  That the Lady should grant this upstart with
nobility bespeaks of *her* power, *her* greatness.  I hope that I may serve
m'lady well as the bearer of her colours in this land called Psyberia.

a votre service chere Dame de Psyberie

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 19 14:03:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 20:03:32 -0600

Walter, Judith, dancers, bards, and audience in Cyberia,

        There is poetry in your images, Walter.

WL>There is a rhythm too between the making music & dancing and listening
WL>to the music & watching.
WL>
WL>writing & reading
WL>
WL>voicing & listening
WL>
WL>performance & audience
WL>
WL>lost & secure
WL>
WL>judging & accepting
WL>
WL>belonging & being on the outside
WL>
WL>in the circle & out of the circle  (or pentagram!)

        These vibrant signs of life where there exists only invisible waves,
an impossible reality.  Where is this Cyberspace? There is no map.
When is this Cyberspace? Time is ignored. Who is this Cyberspace? Ghosts of
physical bodies. Why this Cyberspace? Pull the plug and it disappears. Yet,
for all these whisps of nothing we find music, dance, love, hate, intellect,
society, language, and a nascent sense of history -- we find culture.

        Cyberia--a land of mirrors.  Each spirit I meet brings another
mirror with which I can see yet another reflection of my *self*.  I, too, am
a mirror.  My own view (our view--collective) of myself is one of many
reflections, each distorted, each true.  Face-to-face reflections,
voice-to-voice reflections, touch-to-touch reflections, mind-to-mind
relflections, soul-to-soul.  The words on my screen reflect as I come to see
another aspect of my *self* in them, a hierarchy of selves -- biological,
social, intellectual, spiritual -- until perhaps I catch a glimpse of the
*essence* of my *self* that transcends these bounded reflections.

        This is a breath-taking place, time, community, and culture this
Psyberia.

Robert de Cyberie

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Fri Apr 19 14:49:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 22:49:25 -0400

>WL>There is a rhythm too between the making music & dancing and listening
>WL>to the music & watching.

There exists music which is incomplete without the dancer....for instance,
some  African music:  in which the drum and instruments are only part of the
whole...it is the dancers feet, the dancers steps that complete the beat.  To
listen to the music without the dancer to provide the completion is to only
experience a part of the beauty, a part of the whole.

There exist places in our hearts and souls that are incomplete....missing the
drum beat perhaps.  Is that the heartbeat of another soul?  A book of poetry
that stirs our blood?  Music that leaves us quivering?  A work of art that
takes our breath away?

I am whole. and yet I am incomplete.  Ever I search for the music to
accompany my dancing feet.  As I change, so my search changes, so do my
steps..... each new dance is a special joy.  Ever I search for the dance to
complete the beat of my song....perhaps it is my own feet that have been too
long still, perhaps it is my own mouth that has been too long
silent...perhaps it is my eyes that have been too long unseeing.....perhaps
it is my soul that has been to long unsharing.


RdeCt:  -- until perhaps I catch a glimpse of the *essence* of my *self* that
transcends these bounded reflections.

It is within our boundaries, both real and imposed, that we come to know
ourselves beyond our limitations. That we come to find the freedom of those
limitations and the endless variations within it.

In sharing a bit of ourselves.....we come to our Self...in ways we could not
before, because we did not have that reflection of thought.  Here, where our
words come back to us: disassembled, reassembled, interpreted,
misinterpreted...we find hitherto unknown thoughts and feelings course
through us and we dare the rapids of our own desires:  laid bare before an
audience unseen, unknown....and all the disparate parts of us:  the neglected
child, the wounded lover, the patient friend...and all the others... twine
through the warp and weft of the tapestry that Is us:  the tangled threads of
the lives we have led...those leading to the past we may chose to
forget...those beckoning to a future we may chose to forgo....and ultimately,
the one clear path that leads back to the self, to the soul, to the joy and
light that is us.

and we tremble.

>        This is a breath-taking place....

For the first time in my life I can breath.......and what I inhale infuses my
soul with energy and vitality and my fingers itch to dance across a keyboard
that spills my soul in light waves and particles, infused with the moment
that was me:  .perhaps reflective, perhaps joyous, perhaps mischevious,
perhaps.....you will know when the words touch you....perhaps not.

 We cannot share what will not be received.  When I open <your> mail I open a
pathway to my heart and let you in....

shall we dance?

Is'e

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From hoon@APK.NET Fri Apr 19 16:05:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: poetry ..lurkers and inner voices..
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 00:05:45 -0400

Every day I receive a "Quote of the Day" through an email distribution
list. Among today's gems:

"I am a part of all that I have met."

                           John Milton

And then through all the wonderful essence flowing here, I can bring an
obvious reversal to bear:

"All that I have met is a part of me."

***

thanks,

Stephen

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From tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ Fri Apr 19 16:48:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:48:02 +1200

Hello
Something is running riot through me after reading Lisa's breath taking
message.I'm amazed,  refreshed and revitalised.The clarity of thought,
feeling and exspression contained in that post was spectacular.I Love it.
  I was feeling slightly challenged and still,  the load is a bit lighter &
freeer now.I have to break through at the moment,  I feel held back by my
situations that I create,  putting things off then doing them at the last
minute, panicking,  stressing .Just about coping,  something else for lazy
or inadequecy.But I gotta do it hand it in or I will be giving up,  I will
feel like I'm letting myself down,  I did that to many times last year at
University,  dropping papers & essays.I will get it done and hand my
english essay in.
  Thanks for that,  just letting of some steam, & encouraging my self.

                                              shall we dance?
I would be honored and intrigued to dance with such a wondrous person as
your self.
                                     Lead on,   in your Dance of life!!




                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"

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From XMeff@AOL.COM Fri Apr 19 17:44:35 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning
From: XMeff@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 01:44:35 -0400

Robert,

You said:
RdeC>       It is strange how life leads us down certain paths at special
times.
RdeC>When I read the following contribution by John (XMEFF), I again became
RdeC>convinced that there is no such thing as coincidence.

You say there is no such thing as mere coincidence (ie, meaningless
connections)?

RdeC>>> . . .  I appreciate the <<tableau>> that you paint as coming from a
RdeC>>deep place.
XM>>. . . a deep place?  I would think of it as the mixing bowl.

table, krater, stone . . .

RdeC>        I find myself needing to echo you.  Music is not just the
RdeC>mathematical value of soundwaves.  Music is dependant upon the receptor
as
RdeC>much as the transmitter.  Music is more than the notes.  Music defies
being
RdeC>defined.  How are we then able to make distinctions?  What is music to
one
RdeC>human is noise to another, is silence to yet another; yet the sense of
music
RdeC>is understood without being taught, without being intellectualized.

 I find that what is so amazing is not that there is music but that there is
a listener.  The universe sings to itself and comprehends.  In the sense you
speak of here, there is a transcendent quality, something that goes beyond
the mere senses.

RdeC>        I have rambled on again.  I wonder if these rambling have any
value
RdeC>to the group?

By this,  I would think you mean that we (this discussion) are headed
nowhere.  I find that a random walk can be more rewarding at times than a
straight walk to a predetermined destination.

RdeC> . . . . . . . . . .   I have this habit of spinning webs from bits of
incandescent
RdeC>light.

Ah, . . . another link in the chain.  What is cosmos but bodies of light
separated by mostly empty space?  The light is the truth just as sure as our
bodies are made from carbon forged in the solar furnaces.

What have you finally decided?  Valuable or valueless?

Adios, amigo

John

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Fri Apr 19 21:48:03 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: e-mail comm expressivity (was: Re: Language and communities)
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 11:48:03 +0200

Wilbur, Barbara,
thanks to both of you for contributing to a body of knowledge badly needed for
developing a theory of e-mail comm behavior.

I may resume:
1. Wilbur - enticed by the first few lines of some remark on list silence - did
*very* well in handling a number of topics:

Facial feedback is for most people essential to immediacy in comm (and, often,
even life!)

Full-blossomed emotive expression requires mastery of written language at one's
fingertips beyond mere writer's brilliance. Most of this ability may be self-
taught "by doing it" in relentless repetition of trying to improve...

His experiences in language immersion struck a chord vital to me - I grew up
with a background in written English and did reports as well as some poetry in
both German and English (indeed, I mourned the death of my first partner in Eng-
lish poems).
But it was e-mail that furnished language immersion to me - I'm hard-hearing and
thus lack expectation pattern of spoken languages I'm fluent in writing.

2. Barbara joined the thread sharing experiences of being freed from FtF baggage
*impeding* direct comm when she resorted to e-mailing.
She stresses
- non-interruption (forcing the "listener" to deal with the *whole* msg - in-
  stead of being tied up by associations caused by unintended *partial* msgs
  from the beginning act of speech);
- absence of non-verbal "anti"-msgs (causing unsureness,mistrust,if not double-
  bind);
- freedom of info sharing, resulting in a degree of understanding each other
  hitherto unachievable.

Thank you both for showing *both* sides of the coin...

If there'll be more msgs to this thread, I offer to post regular resumes on a
2-days basis or so.
Mila

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Fri Apr 19 23:15:14 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Language and communities
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 13:15:14 +0200

Robert,
your wonderful alter-ego has a fur like the deep black silk found in precious
Japanese kimonos I'm so fond of. When a sunlight ray cozies on some of his hairs
they turn coffee-brown in transluminescence. As a king, he boldly inspects all
of his Kingdom every day - even our secret room, where we usually don't admit
cats because they tend to hide there unreachable and to force their nocturnal
life-cycle upon us mere workers needing our sleep...

Don't ask me about more details about the plot that'll set you acting as King of
The Extremes. As you'll remember from the intervention I tried with Marah, this
story rests in my quiver until I see reason to throw it on list, where it will
unfold into a bouquet of exotic flowers charming the strange smell of ambivalen-
ce. Oui, oui, les fleurs d'ambivalence, - mais je n'ai pas lu l'oeuvre de Rim-
baud, helas.

Have nice dreams, my sleeping Majesty.
Mila, deesse des rois

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sat Apr 20 00:15:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Sharmila Pixy Ferris
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 06:15:34 -0600

Sharmila,

        Welcome to the company of non-lurkers.

>I have been reading with interest the discussion on the nature of
>language, characteristics of cybercommunication and enjoying the poetry
>in this group over the past month.

        As a sometime poet, I too have enjoyed the offerings. I do hope that
they serve as more than decoration and distraction to the _list_. They are,
after all, investigations into the on-line psyche, investigation of on-line
relationship.

>A topic I did not see mentioned was that of culture.
>The issue of the unique culture of cyberspace is a really interesting one
>that seems to be well within the purview of this listserv.

        Exactly! I am surprised of the synchronocity here. My last post
(PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning) touched upon that very theme. IMHO, there
is no real understanding of the psychology of a list/listserv without
understanding its anthropology.

Robert de Cyberie

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 20 02:55:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Brevity
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:55:59 GMT

Hi  marcus,

> I switched on to receive 326 e-mails from this list - which shows how
> frequently I log on and am finally moved to post a message, having lurked
> for some good long time.  I would read all that was posted but there were so
> many words, so much thinking and theorising going on.  I couldn't find the
> heart of it.

Does your mail reader have a thread option? You might like to follow
one of the two only.  One reason I encourage people to attend to the
subject line.

> I would like to know how may people are on the list.  Do you give out that
> kind of information Walter ?

It is public information:  send a command to the listserv (see the sig
added to these emails) with REVIEW PSYBER-L in the text  you will get
their names and email addresses.

It is about 110 i think, there having been about 30 or so leave and 15
join in the last 2 weeks. (these stats are vague)  In the last two
days however 6 joined -- welcome -- and only 3 left.

>Yours briefly,

Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 20 02:56:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:56:05 GMT

Fred and all,

> Dolores,
>
> You adopt a pose of evil...
>
> The point?
>
> Simply to destroy?
>
> I expect so...and you will probably succeed; but the rest of us,
> especially the list-owner much cooperate.

You got a couple of swift short ones for that Fred  but I am not sure
that I really get what you are saying.  Do you really think that
Dolores posts are capable of such power?  And do you think the rest of
us  especially me collude?

Do I have that right?  Could you say more!


Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 20 02:56:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Newcomer's High!
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 14:56:09 GMT

Steven

Sami:
> >My main interest is at this moment in psychodrama (I am a
> >psychodramatist-to-be) and it's methods of spiritual growth.

Steven:
> Over the past year, I have been become convinced that online interactions in
> cyberspace can be looked at as a powerful form of psychodrama.  I'm
> primarily talking here of online conversations using Mirc type
> software...email, of course, is a slower version of this type of
> communication, so I suspect that we're talking about a continuum...letter
> writing ===> email ===> online interactive "chats".
 In general, the word

Good to see a few psychodramatists here, or are you using the term in
a more generic sense?  What is Mirc?

On the continuum of media you mention:  _time_ is one factor that
changes in each of these media  hence different aspects of the psyche
are illuminated  What do you think?

> "chat" is a poor choice for the potential I've experienced of using
> cyberspace for constructive role playing.  This potential seems to be
> limited only by one's imagination and his/her choice of partners.

Are there specific sites or places you would recommend ?  (Others,
Fred and Dolores? might have some ideas on this.)


> One of the
> points of the story was to convey the degree of bonding and intimacy
> achievable via this medium.  There also seems to be a pioneer spirit among
> many of the people I've met in cyberspace...a recognition that this medium
> places a premium upon the use of the imagination...that it is a new type of
> interpersonal communication which is in a state of active growth and
> exploration.

Exactly!  Interesting that just at this moment in the list this notion
is surfacing in several posts.  I am thinking of my friend Dans story
of the trainees who immediately opted for email communication over
f2f.  I the discussion in the Language and Communities thread the
theme is also on the agenda.

I read about Ira Progroff  writing workshops.  He describes how even
in silence while people are writing in a group there is a sense of
sharing and communing.  I sometimes wish to do this in a beautiful
room while we are all present in rl.

> In fact, I suspect that the comparison of the structure of cyberspace and
> the structure of the mind is more than a simple analogy.

I think so.  We are working within the bounds of the archetypal
forces.  Perhaps the structure of language ties in too.

> These models have application to both physics and psychology.  (If you are
> interested, the British psychologist Maurice Nicoll's book entitled "Living
> Time" is a good introduction to this area.)  I believe it is likely that our
> personal experience of time and the way we model or process time
> perceptually is closely connected to the way we perceive ourselves
> physically and spiritually.  Any thoughts in this area by the group?

An important area to look at as the asynchronous nature of our time
structure  is one of the key unique factors of this form.


Walter

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 20 04:39:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 10:39:52 -0600

Tama,
How exciting to hear from someone from Dunedin!  My husband and I
traveled to New Zealand a year ago, and he used to live in Dunedin (I
think).  We didn't get that far on the South Island, but we toured the
North Island in a campervan for one week, then the South Island as far as
Christchurch and Hokitika.  We live in Colorado.
Barbara

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From edbaud@SLVBBS.COM Sat Apr 20 05:01:03 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Fred Bauder <edbaud@SLVBBS.COM>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 12:01:03 EST

Walter,

Did Dolores adopt a post of evil by evoking the Beast; what is the Beast
Number 666?

Fred

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From spferris@FRONTIER.WILPATERSON.EDU Sat Apr 20 07:42:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Psychodrama
From: Pixy Ferris <spferris@FRONTIER.WILPATERSON.EDU>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:42:26 -0400

> Steven:
> > Over the past year, I have been become convinced that online interactions in
> > cyberspace can be looked at as a powerful form of psychodrama.  I'm
> > primarily talking here of online conversations using Mirc type
> > software...email, of course, is a slower version of this type of
> > communication, so I suspect that we're talking about a continuum...letter
> > writing ===> email ===> online interactive "chats".
> X In general, the word

> Walter
> Good to see a few psychodramatists here, or are you using the term in
> a more generic sense?  What is Mirc?

An issue I too would like to see illuminated.  A rhetorical viewpoint
offers another perspective -- that of the Burkean dramatistic view.  Or,
on a more prosaice level (but one which I have been invetsigating recently)
, the "word" on-line that Stven talks about mirrors the psychodrama of
our everyday lives, but the nature of the medium (a print version of oral
interactions) gives it a particularly piquant flavour.

> Walter:
> On the continuum of media you mention:  _time_ is one factor that
> changes in each of these media   hence different aspects of the psyche
> are illuminated   What do you think?

Much has been written in teh annals of CMC on how cybertalk abolishes
barriers of time and space.  You raise an interesting point about the
effects of time on the individual (&/or collective?) psyche.  I'd like to
hear more about your feelings on this.

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From spferris@FRONTIER.WILPATERSON.EDU Sat Apr 20 07:47:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: e-mail comm expressivity
From: Pixy Ferris <spferris@FRONTIER.WILPATERSON.EDU>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:47:44 -0400

>Mila
> If there'll be more msgs to this thread, I offer to post regular resumes on a
> 2-days basis or so.

>Walter
>I think this is a great offer   one I have not seen in a list before!
>So while we learn about the substantive content of this thread we can
>have the extra pleasure of seeing how this can work.

I'd like to add my endorsement, and say in addition that this list offers
a graet many "extras".  Walter, you do a graet job as moderator, thank you!

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From spferris@FRONTIER.WILPATERSON.EDU Sat Apr 20 07:57:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: Sharmila Pixy Ferris
From: Pixy Ferris <spferris@FRONTIER.WILPATERSON.EDU>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:57:25 -0400

On Fri, 19 Apr 1996, Robert de Cyberie wrote:

> Sharmila,
>
>         Welcome to the company of non-lurkers.

Thanks Robert.  Your notes of welcome to the new list members (and I
think I've seen four from you this week) do a lot to establish a positive
climate on this list.  BTW, a minor point, but I generally go by 'Pixy'

> >A topic I did not see mentioned was that of culture.
> >The issue of the unique culture of cyberspace is a really interesting one
> >that seems to be well within the purview of this listserv.
>
>         Exactly! I am surprised of the synchronocity here. My last post
> (PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning) touched upon that very theme. IMHO, there
> is no real understanding of the psychology of a list/listserv without
> understanding its anthropology.

I couldn't agree more. One problem here is that a good anthropologist
must immerse him/herself in the culture, but problems of time and other
commitments often prevent that in a cyberculture such as this one.
Another problem is the relative youth of the medium.  The culture is
growing and developing, so studying it from within is like a fish
studying water --soemthing that McLuhan says can't be done effectively

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 20 08:00:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:00:08 -0400

At 12:01 PM 4/19/96 EST, you wrote:
>Walter,
>
>Did Dolores adopt a post of evil by evoking the Beast;

No, I nominated her for the spot, since I didn't want to be identified as
the "Beast".  I figured with the "this isn't about the psychology of
listserv's" messages that I was posting, (rather incendiary), there was a
pretty good chance that I would be cast in the role of scapegoat..  Not
wanting to be the lamb for the slaughter, I playfully suggested that the
Delores should be cast in the role of "Devil" so that I could avoid the role
of scapegoat.  Delores responded in turn with her return from the pits of
hell in order to make the sacrifice..

baaaahhhh...  baaaahhh..  (<--- That's supposed to be the sound of a
scapegoat running away..)

So no, Delores isn't a Devil, she just plays one in Siberia.  (Am I the only
one that got that?)  (Boy to I love double entondra's (but I don't know how
to spell it))

Wilbur

---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 20 09:28:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:28:34 -0600

Wilbur,
I think it's entendre.
Barbara

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 20 09:37:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 17:37:37 -0400

At 03:28 PM 4/19/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Wilbur,
>I think it's entendre.

I think that you're right..

>Barbara
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
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>
>
>
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Sat Apr 20 10:27:51 1996
To: Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: e-mail comm expressivity 
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 22:27:51 GMT


Mila,

Thank you for the initiatives.  

Dan's post about the decision to continue the training in email was
fascinating on the same theme, there was a preference for the written
word even when they were all in the same room!  Perhaps one of the
attractions is that in email we can all speak at once, and yet not be
interrupted, as Barbara said.  

> Thank you both for showing *both* sides of the coin...
> 
> If there'll be more msgs to this thread, I offer to post regular resumes on a
> 2-days basis or so.

I think this is a great offer  one I have not seen in a list before!
So while we learn about the substantive content of this thread we can
have the extra pleasure of seeing how this can work.  


Walter



From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sat Apr 20 10:41:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 23:41:20 +0100

Dear Fred,

Actually you got it right. I am in fact the leader of the coven currently
involved in sordid satanical practice at the end of my garden with the rest
of the faeries.

We are having a BBQ and bake out at the end of the month to which you are
cordially invited. Please bring a bottle.

We wont be raising The Horned one, sacrificing goats, (Wilbur you live to
baaah till another full moon) chickens, babies or cats, or dancing naked
round the dog cack on this particular occasion (sorry to disappoint you) My
legions of darkness will instead be thinking up new ways to permeate the
list with our own peculiar brand of  evil.

After the noshfest we will of course be impregnating virgins in the hopes of
concieving the anti-christ 9 months down the line, if that fails to amuse us
then we have a few christians/list members (actually only one I can think
of, now who do you think that might be Fred?) lined up to maim, scarify,
torment, torture and otherwise convert to the unrighteous path.
All good clean fun and rarely messy if you can find the right rubber sheeting.

Dolores..

Mephistopheles@inferno.co.abyss

P.S Fred Can a reccomend a toke on a good joint. It'll do wonders for your
sense of perception. You might actually find you have a sense of humour.

Walter your email came in as I was just about to post this. Freds
unwarrented Hydrophy comment, I sort of let pass.. even the first 666
comment..but now he is starting to get up my nasal cavities in a big way.
Its very boring playing wargames when you have polaris missiles and your
opponant seems only to be armed with a rubberband. Unless he starts making
suitable defences for his statements and petty little asides, I will let him
play with his rubber bands by himself.. He doesnt bother backing up any of
his statements or explaining himself further. Im getting quite bored. *Yawn*

Come on Fred...give me your best shot. You seem to want to annoy me...at
least do it properly.

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sat Apr 20 11:25:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever..
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 00:25:23 +0100

Assorted ramblings..by the slightly squiffy and not in a very good mood.
Probably makes no sense.. what the hell. It'll give Fred something to stick
his crucifix into.

I have been fortunate/very lucky in that I have had a very intense cyber
relationship, which taught me an awful lot about myself, and about the way
my life was evolving.. My time in cyberspace has also destroyed my marriage
and at the end of the day, when I look back I dont want to think that I came
out of this with nothing.

Theres a saying that everything has a price. I hope the price I paid is
ultimatly worth it. The price I paid is to have lost love and trust and to
have hurt somebody that I ultimatly cared a great deal about. What I got in
return, was to know myself and my potential a little better..and to learn to
share and to love. By the time however, that process was near completion, my
partner had learnt not to care, either about me or what it was I was up to here.

The price the net extracts is your dissasociation from reality. You lose
your sense of responsibility, of consequence and of your real life
commitments.  An irc in- depth relationship, causes you to lie. It makes you
decieve and it makes you cling to an illusion that may or may not exist.

It is the ability to mindshare on here that is potentially the most
attractive and the most dangerous aspect of electronic relationships. It
seduces until you can see nothing beyond what you think you have found. It
extracts time so that you lose all sense of it. You begin to be disatisfied
with what you have. Your beguiled by the idea that you have found somebody
who understands you and you begin to lose focus about what your real
priorities should be.

I disagree with the term bandied about by certain members of the press,
particularly a daily paper in England called the Sun, which is a bit like a
daily version of the National Enquirer but with more topless women - that
cyberspace is not a reality.  Its merely a place for the lonely and the sad,
and those members of society who cannot find a niche anywhere else. They
ridicule cyberspace as a place for the socially inept. The computer geek,
those outside society, the shy the lonely, the confused.
The truth is that cyberspace is a reality.. you cant say that what you do
here doesnt matter. Is a cyber affair equatable with a real life affair? My
husband thought so, and his objection was that I shared myself in a way I
didnt in my non electronic life.  I dont think that that level of sharing is
possible in real life. You can let somebody in to places even you dont know
exist in your mind.

Its not Reality I believed. That was my mistake.  Its very real. Its real
people..its real thoughts, real emotions..real love and in the end real
pain. It isnt restricted And you pay. Change creeps up on you and when you
look around your not the same person you were when you first typed X amount
of months ago.
It took me ages to come to terms with the fact, that I loved somebody I had
never *spoken* to, never seen, never touched. When all these things are
taken into consideration..how could I possibly love what in effect are only
words on a screen.
The thing is that the words were a truth, the words are that person. I fell
in love and I didnt even know it was happening, until my husband pointed it
out to me. Until then I had suspected it was an illusion, a fantasy, my
fantasy, my illusion. Not hurting anybody or so it seemed.

The most obvious instant attractor in real life is our physical aspect. Here
that is not a factor. It is the mind that either attracts or repells. A way
of thought or expression that singles out somebodys attention. Body language
is non-existant here, but we find ways to compensate for that, the way a
sentence is structured, the way the content changes, the mood it conveys as
I read it.. the picking up of these signals, In cyberspace the written word
is now an alternative to the body language.
(And we dont get body language right all the time either.)
When I talk to somebody I know well in cyberspace.. I can tell what sort of
mood he is in by the way he structures the text..how a short a sentence is,
how brief a reply, the kind of language he uses.

The physical is obviously not much in evidence unless your abusing your
anatomy while sat in front of a monitor engaging with somebody of like mind
and the same ability to type with one hand, on a channel which specifically
caters for your particular sexual tastes. (note again I am talking IRC)

We substitute the physical, the lack of being able to touch somebodys body,
with instead the ability to touch their minds, and to let them touch ours.
Its a rare and precious thing, that can be felt here, to share yourself
completely with another person. To enable a communion, so intense, so in
harmony at times, a perfect dance of souls.. thats the beauty of cyberspace
and it is also its greatest danger.

I think I'll go work out my biorhythms for the next 6 months in the hope
there might be some radical improvement in the shape of things to come.

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 20 11:34:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Siberia.. brrrr...
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 19:34:45 -0400

When I was a kid, I remember that if I screwed up there was the constant,
"You'll get shipped off to Siberia".  (That cold place in Russia, did I
spell it right?)

So here we are in Psyberia, playing in the snow, and I'm making a snowball!
I roll it around on the ground to get it about a foot accross.

Looking around, I spot, Vicki and Delores making a snow man.  (complete with
a fur jacket..)

Should I?  Will they ever talk to me again?

I can't resist!


Wilbur



---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sat Apr 20 11:49:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Wilburrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 00:49:41 +0100

At 19:34 19/04/96 -0400, you wrote:
>When I was a kid, I remember that if I screwed up there was the constant,
>"You'll get shipped off to Siberia".  (That cold place in Russia, did I
>spell it right?)

Hmmm I was told that the monster that lurked in the closet also went by the
name of Wilbur. My I would terrify my little sister into night frights with
chants of "Wilburs going to get you!!"


Should I?  Will they ever talk to me again?

Like you could resist it Wilbur.. Cant speak for Vikki but if you grovel to
the best of your ability I might consider it.

Dolores .. please spell it right.

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sat Apr 20 13:27:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: e-mail comm expressivity
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 19:27:12 -0600

Hi all,

        I was just cleaning up my filing cabinet and found some interesting
bits 'n' peices about Internet and CMC that may find a use in the discussion
thread intiated by Mila.

<<Like so much of the Internet, the Web is an outlet for ego. I said in
previous writings that the Internet is an arena for unpublished authors and
actors with no audience.>> (Phillips, G.M., 1995. Luddites Lament).

        The late Dr. Phillips of IPCT-L fame (a great listserv while he was
alive and an active participant) wrote frequently about the nature of
communication on-line.  I was struck by his reference to authors and actors,
two important roles that we persue here on PSYBER-L.  However, I wonder
about the comment <<an outlet for ego>>.  Does not our work here at times
let us step outside that very *ego* in our acting and authoring?

        Dr. Phillips also had the occasion to serve as an on-line counselor.
He speaks of how the act of participating in _lists_ often invites
disclosure.  It appears that those who have the time to participate as a
contributor to lists and take the time to respond and *in context* to the
on-list and off-list messages, invite disclosure and become the *best
friend* of these Internet world citizens.  His rationale: <<People are
lonely. And people don't want to be lonely. In fact, it is quite unhealthy
to be lonely.>> (Phillips, 1994. Sigmund Freud on the Internet). He
continues:  <<... herein lies the power and danger of Email communication.
You can find people to listen. What you cannot be sure of, however, is how
your confidences will be treated.>>

        Phillips (July, 1994. On Interpersonal Relationships and Email),
sees this Internet domaine as a *new culture*, a domaine where those who
post create an image of themselves that is <<devoid of physical form>> and
that they are <<constructed and recontructed by the people who read their
words.>>  This on-line world is described as a *social* dimension in which
words form the attraction and draw attention. How does his description fit
with what we are discovering about the psychology of a listserv? the nature
of drama? the role of poetry and prose? disclosure (both on-list and off-list)?

        Maybe some of this is useful, maybe not.

Robert de Cyberie

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From mrosen@DIALNSA.EDU Sat Apr 20 13:52:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: my apologies
From: "Marah Rosenberg~203-748-8835" <mrosen@DIALNSA.EDU>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 21:52:29 -0400

I wanted to let everyone here know that I have not forgotten or
intentionally ignored you. My appologies if it semed that way.  In an
attempt to install MS office on this mac I use, I completely botched the
mac. (or should I say that MSoffice did...) So I have been in the process
of rebuilding this hunk of silicon.   This is very frustrating because I
lost a lot of information (like the initial reponses to my posts) and I
would still like to respond.  If you have these in a sent-mail directory
could you please privately resend to : c1rcle@concentric.net.  thank you.

I am glad to see that there is a lot of interesting discussion on this list.
I would like to start another.

My first computer was the apple 2 series in the early 80's (pre mac/lisa)
I have always used tunnel interfaces.  moving from apple2's to 8088's, (xt's)
DOS, etc.  I used windows, and got used to guis. (graphical user
interface) then, I discovered the rich world of unix(AIX to be precice).
for reasons beyond my control righ now i am using a powermac 7200.  I
can't swing it. I feel in many ways very frustrated, because I know that
This is supposed to be more user friendly, but apparently not for me.  I
thought aix and dos were harder than macos, but from the last 1-2wks I've
seen how wrong i am, and how much I admire the skill to think in terms of
objects(icons)...

this much I know about interface:
there is a PRODUCTIVE INTERFACE where the participant feels productive,
like they are doing work, etc.
Most people seem to refer to this as a TUNNEL INTERFACE because it is
harder to operate in unix/dos than windows/macintosh/95 or os2 ; and the
line by line quality of unix/dos gives the impression of sending commands
down itno a black tunnel/void/box and getting a response.  it is very
very flat. (visually)

A PLAYFUL INTERFACE is where the participant feels less like they are
actually doing work.


please understand that i mean not that one is not working on a win/mac
etc, but just that little things like moving files, bolding, deleting,
are not that hard to do.
AIX rm -i filename to delete
95 drag to recycle bin or press delete
macos trash can
win3* press delete


there is also the argument that drag and drop is "work", however, this
refers more to how one feels when using a certain interface.


====
I like my unix. and feel uncomfortable in other enviroments. almost as if
the gui interface assumes I'm an idiot.  and therefore spoonfeeds me
everything

i know that other people can argue that the gui interface assumes that
I'm brilliant, so it cuts away tedious tasks so you can create a
masterpiece.....

part of it may be my adamant stand that technology is not transparent,
nor will it be any time soon.(my recent experience with macos, past
experiences with 95 and windows tell me so.. the technology is only as
smart as the end user - but people might forget that)

- guis feed an ignorance about the computer, inspire technology to be
seen as black boxish and possibly even magical (msft wizards in office).
I feel that this is a dangerous thing.

comments , please I want to discuss

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sat Apr 20 15:18:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: Sharmila Pixy Ferris
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 21:18:28 -0600

Pixy,

        Continuing the *culture* thread:

RdeC>> IMHO, there is no real understanding of the psychology of
RdeC>> list/listserv without understanding its anthropology.
>
PF>I couldn't agree more. One problem here is that a good anthropologist
PF>must immerse him/herself in the culture, but problems of time and other
PF>commitments often prevent that in a cyberculture such as this one.
PF>Another problem is the relative youth of the medium.  The culture is
PF>growing and developing, so studying it from within is like a fish
PF>studying water --soemthing that McLuhan says can't be done effectively

        I wonder about that?!? I seem to remember that Pirsig's book took
issue with the classical approaches to anthropology because of that
particular notion that one can't understand a culture unless you look at it
objectively from the outside. I think that if one was to try to study this
CMC culture from the oustside we'd get a good picture of its surface, a
picture that has little to do with the blood and guts under its skin.

        For example, with Laurel's story (language, relationships), much is
learned about the nature of relation within this environment. Nothing
theoretical or academic -- its raw truth as perceived by a real Psyberian.
Steven Hoath's *Rover* tale does the same for us. True tales from the
underground/psybergrounds.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sat Apr 20 15:18:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever..
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 21:18:43 -0600

Dearest Laurel and other coven leaders,

        I hope that my venturing to reply to you while you're in a slightly
nasty mood will allow me to escape unscathed. The only crucifix that I have
in the house is made with burnt matchsticks (I wonder what this symbolizes
-- Walter? anyone?). Perhaps a little latin will serve as a ward.

        More seriously, I was touched and honoured to be allowed to share in
you disclosure as you give evidence of the *reality* of Cyberia.  I'll
follow your lead and add to the evidence.

>I have been fortunate/very lucky in that I have had a very intense cyber
>relationship, which taught me an awful lot about myself, and about the way
>my life was evolving..

        I've found that the dialogues on various listservs have acted as
magnets, like a black hole, I've been drawn into the vortex that leads not
to a non-place and time, but to this land of pure thought born of real
people. This land has shown me that I have a voice that others enjoy. My
voice has attracted other voices. Together, in our shared dialogues, we sang
and cruised the seas of cyberspace. In the process, I discovered myself in
the mirrors of others, various faces of my *self*.

        I, too, fell in love. and hate. and friendship. and loneliness. I
felt all those emotions that my corporal form thought only to exist on this
side of my screen. My physical self was wrong. Life on the other side of the
screen is real.

>My time in cyberspace has also destroyed my marriage and at the end
>of the day, when I look back I dont want to think that I came
>out of this with nothing.

        Fortunately, though badly cracked from 25 years of marital static,
my marriage still holds together. Internet was not a threat. I am the threat
to my marriage's continued existence. The time I invested (and to a lesser
degree still invest) in my journeys through Cyberia would have been invested
in other avenues of distancing. What matter the path that we wander in our
search, it is the search itself that draws us on, the need for discovery,
the need for filling in the black holes of our psyche.

>It is the ability to mindshare on here that is potentially the most
>attractive and the most dangerous aspect of electronic relationships. It
>seduces until you can see nothing beyond what you think you have found. It
>extracts time so that you lose all sense of it. You begin to be
>disatisfied with what you have. Your beguiled by the idea that you have
>found somebody who understands you and you begin to lose focus about what
>your real priorities should be.

        The mindsharing--soulmating! I see life in a different era, bohemian
(Rilke), a time of dangerous liasons, a mocking of convention. Do we do much
the same here? Reality, responsibility, morality. Climbing the peaks with
Zarathustra, laying with Lou Salome, riding a motorbike with Pirsig, Riding
the Tiger -- all earth-bound experiences of the mind as I read. Singing with
a cybermate, dancing with a cyberchorus, arguing with a cyberdisciple,
comforting cyberhurt -- cyberia-bound experiences of the mind/soul (how do I
convey that there is more than mind at work here?). This to is reality to
those who wander among these formless shores.

>The truth is that cyberspace is a reality.. you cant say that what you do
>here doesnt matter. Is a cyber affair equatable with a real life affair?
>My husband thought so, and his objection was that I shared myself in a >way
I didnt in my non electronic life.  I dont think that this level of >sharing
is possible in real life. You can let somebody in to places even >you dont
know exist in your mind.

        There! Did you catch that? Take note of these words as you prepare
for the play of psychodrama. To what depths will one travel? What mysteries
of our psyche be uncovered?

>Its not Reality I believed. That was my mistake.  Its very real. Its real
>people..its real thoughts, real emotions..real love and in the end real
>pain.

        Laurel, yes, it's real. Real losses, real gains, real change.

>The thing is that the words were a truth, the words are that person. I fell
in love and I didnt even know it was happening, until my husband pointed it
out to me. Until then I had suspected it was an illusion, a fantasy, my
fantasy, my illusion. Not hurting anybody or so it seemed
                <snip>
>The most obvious instant attractor in real life is our physical aspect.
>Here that is not a factor. It is the mind that either attracts or repells.
>A way of thought or expression that singles out somebody's attention. Body
>language is non-existant here, but we find ways to compensate for that,
>the way a sentence is structured, the way the content changes, the mood it
>conveys as I read it.. the picking up of these signals, In cyberspace the
>written word is now an alternative to the body language. (And we dont get
>body language right all the time either.)

        Mila, these words need to find a home in the thread you are guarding
for us. Pixy, fell the ambience of culture.

>When I talk to somebody I know well in cyberspace.. I can tell what sort
>of mood he is in by the way he structures the text..how a short a sentence
>is, how brief a reply, the kind of language he uses.

        And dare I still talk with you in poetic terms? I feel stripped of
artifice under your eyes. Is this why so many lurk? the fear of being
stripped naked? the fear of learning the truth about oneself?

>We substitute the physical, the lack of being able to touch somebody's
>body, with instead the ability to touch their minds, and to let them touch
>ours. Its a rare and precious thing, that can be felt here, to share
>yourself completely with another person. To enable a communion, so
>intense, so in harmony at times, a perfect dance of souls.. that's the
>beauty of cyberspace and it is also its greatest danger.

       There is a Fench word that captures some of this: <<epanouissement>>
a blossoming; a coming out; an opening up. These moments where we transcend
as we touch another in Cyberia.

        I'd like to offer this little song to all those who have need, those
who have loved and lost here in Cyberie. This is for my soulmates (gender is
not an issue: note that in French, the word *soulmate* is represented with
the term <<ame soeur>> and applies to both male and female spirits that are
entwined as soulmates)

                La berceuse - the lullaby
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Je veux te bercer dans mes bras,
                              te soulager
                  en offrant mon coeur a le tien
          un coeur legerement deguenille
                                       par des annees perdues.

I want to cradle you in my arms
                              to comfort you
                   offering my heart to yours
           a heart lightly tattered
                       by years long past and lost.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Robert de Cyberie

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 20 22:20:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 666 The number of the Beast
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 10:20:08 GMT

Wilbur  (& Fred, Dolores and all),

> So no, Delores isn't a Devil, she just plays one in Siberia.  (Am I the only
> one that got that?)  (Boy to I love double entondra's (but I don't know how
> to spell it))

I got that.  I am glad you have summarised it so clearly.

And what I also get is that Fred is perturbed by that, perhaps even
cautious to really come out & say that for fear of being flamed.
(another double one of those entedre)

Oh boy!  What a situation.  What is a "play" and what is not?

Gregory Bateson did some work on that theme.  I cant remember what he
said exactly but this is what it left me with:  He watched monkeys
fight and also play fight.  In a play fight there are certain things
that make it clear that this is play.  A nip denotes a bite, but is
not a bite.

Pixie has just named on of our threads here Psychodrama a wonderful
discussion to have in tandem with this one.

In a psychodrama this is explicit.  One is on the stage or off it.
The devil on the stage evokes the responses on the stage.  That is not
a pretence  rather a revelation of the psyche  Moreno called it the
"theatre of truth"  a truth that we often could not safely reveal off
stage.

It is important to know the difference between these levels of play.
If I say "Boo" to a child in a game of peek-a-boo and they laugh, then
I can maximise the play.  But if they get a fright and cry and get it
wrong  I step out of that role and let them see who I am.  It can be
more tricky too:  what if they "play" scared?

Right now, at this moment, I have a sense of being in a space that is
very flexible  no clear audience or stage delineation, the more
dramatic roles merge with the more social ones.  Robert is something
of Bob, and also Sir Robert  his majesty.  Wilbur and I are here
doing some clarifying, being facilitative, in roles we might take up
more playfully or dramatically at other times.

I trust others can tune into each others vulnerability, sort out the
complexities of the _levels of play_, just as those characters in one
of Woody Allens films need to do when they walk off the screen (even
as we watch them on the screen!)

I trust that we can create a climate where if there is pain there is
also nurturing.

Enough,

How are you with this Fred?  And how are you Laurel-who-can-choose-to
be-who-she-likes-here-Dolores?

Walter

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sat Apr 20 23:06:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Netsex..etc etc etc
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 12:06:08 +0100

Dear All, specifically Walter in this case,

I truly believe that you cannot understand the psychology of cyber space and
its users fully until you have experienced first hand just how important sex
is on the web/email/newsgroups/lists.

This is dangerous obviously. There are broadly speaking two different types
of netsexing experience to be found here, much as in real life. That is
types of sexual experience and experimentation that can be done with emotion
and that which is done without. Both types can be equally as dangerous.

The first are random encounters on the many channels catering for any taste.
These range from the strange but fun, to channels that would not be condoned
openly in society. I am talking about #kiddysex #familysex #rapesex #dogsex
#beastsex (#denotes channel on irc)
Actually #rapesex is an interesting example like so many channels of this
type, it is visited by equally as many women as men. This is important when
looking at how much the net allows us to play out fantasys..and when it is
something more serious.


Personally speaking I came to the net with a lot of preconcieved notions and
predjudices. I have learnt that Lesbians and gay people are reallly no
different to the rest of us - that religion and spirituality are two
entirely different things. I shed predjudices, I shed intolerances. I shed
preconceptions. Something that through ignorance I had never even bothered
to concern myself with before. I have also learnt that there is nothing two
consenting adults should not do providing they are not harming themselves or
others. My perspective on sex has changed considerably. As an ex Catholic
two of the things I did too well were guilt and shame.

The anarchic nature of the net, is also its greatest danger to itself. I can
forsee a time where people are making the comparisons between video nasties
on our psyches and net nasties. However the recent censorship in America was
blatently wrong in its attempt to control something that the politicians and
moral majority could possibly understand. To them it was only a political tool.

Netsex is beneficial  because it requires complete openness. It has by its
very nature to be graphic in content. Good netsex has to be imaginative,
playfull, open and honest. Bad netsex is just typing a few staid and well
repeated phrases, most often prevelant in bad porn flicks.  Here age shows,
and its interesting to note that the younger the person, the more likely it
is to be a means to a rather messy end. There is no quality to the text,
theres no emotional investment.
There are people who are addicted to this, wandering the irc endlessly, in
search of fullfillment of some kind of or another. They dont seek any closer
relationship, and it is the sort of netsex commonly refered to by the
tabloid papers. I believe the artist formerly known as Prince is heavily
into this type of netsex..
On the other hand, I think it helps to understand what people require in
real life sexual experiences.  I think it has a ripple effect into real life
relationships both good and bad. As a sexual testing ground I think for the
very young the irc can provide indicators as to where their sexuality,
preferences, etc can be found. With the slightly more screwed up, I think
its a way to work through any problems, because you have to be graphic you
cannot hide behind a mask of sexual hangups. It forces problems to the
surface for you to look at and examine and work through.
The psychological benefits of netsexing are completely ignored.
Why I believe this is very much Jungs medium is that the exploration of our
dark sides is possible here in a way not so easily available in real life. I
hate the term real life. Because Cyberspace is very much a reality.. a
parralell existance.
( I wish somebody would invent spellcheck for Eudora)
I only roughly understand the terms animus and anima. I'd be interested if
somebody would like to explain. This is something that netsex also brings to
the fore. If they are our soul images manifest or projected in dreams myths
and fantasys, what better place to find or explore them than on the net. But
as I said Im not entirely sure yet what Jung really meant. I only have "Jung
for begginers" and its not exactly detailed.

Netlove is an entirely different thing. Netsex then becomes, an evolved
state of conciousness where you are bonding and expressing emotion through
the medium.
This might sound rather melodramatic but the level of connection between two
people that know each other so well that they are willing to explore their
deepest fantasys, share themselves with each other, and be completely
willing to explore themselves together is a very intense experience. It is a
bonding experience and it draws you closer to them. To call it netsex is to
belittle it. It is entirely different.

I suppose the drawback to this is that ultimatly you want more. You become
dissatisfied with what real life is offering, and disatisfied because you
cannot touch the person, hold them, see how they laugh, smile, what their
eyes are really saying.

So Walter.. tred carefully. I didnt realise I was compromising my real life
until it had already been irretrievably compromised.

Dolores

I am as I delve deeper into cyberspace coming rapidly to the conclusion that
I dont actually think the world is ready yet, that we as a species are not
ready yet for this phenomenon. We are children in a candy store and the
truth is we should be treading as carefully as if we were in a china shop.

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 21 03:11:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: e-mail comm expressivity
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 09:11:17 -0600

Walter,

Dr. Phillip's writings:

1.   On Interpersonal Relationships and Email.  APEX, Asia-Pacific Exchange
(Electronic) Journal, Vol. 1(1). July, 1994. [on-line]
     JamesS@UHunix.UHcc.Hawaii.edu (for info on retrieval of APEX-J)

2.   Sigmund Freud on the Internet.  APEX, 1(2). November, 1994. [on-line]
     JamesS@UHunix.UHcc.Hawaii.edu (for info on retrieval of APEX-J)

3.   The Luddite's Lament.  APEX. March, 1995. [on-line]
     JamesS@UHunix.UHcc.Hawaii.edu (for info on retrieval of APEX-J)

4.   Speech 2001: A Projection of the Future.  IPCT-J, Interpersonal
Computing and Technology, 1(4). October, 1993. [on-line]
listserv@guvm.georgetown.edu
     (get PHILLIPS IPCTV1N4)

5.   Cutler, R. H.  Distributed Presence and Community in Cyberspace.
     IPCT-J 3(2). April 1995. [on-line] listserv@guvm.georgetown.edu
     (get CUTLER IPCTV3N2)

6.   Coombs, N.  CMC: The medium and the Message. EJC, Electronic Journal
of Communication, 3(2). [on-line] comserve@vm.its.rpi.edu
     (send Coombs V3N293)

        I hope that these addresses are still operable (problem with this
environment). I do have hard copy versions as I didn't have the hard disk
space for their storage before I bought this Pentium machine. Maybe others
have their suggestions for reading (a list for each thread?) and would like
to share their finds?

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 21 03:11:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: PSYBER: Psychodrama (was 666 & the Beast)
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 09:11:27 -0600

Walter,

        You ask:

>Oh boy!  What a situation.  What is a "play" and what is not?

        My response: Play can be equated with an *active disassociation*
with bieng an *active lurker*. If one follows the thread of these double
<<entendre>>, one gets the sense of being in an eighteenth century drawing
room with a host of <<dilletantes>> who circulate spreading their wit
through aphorism and euphimism. *Play* is avoidance of immersion, a messy
and uncomfortable contact with *reality* on-line or real-time.

>In a psychodrama this is explicit.  One is on the stage or off it.
>The devil on the stage evokes the responses on the stage.  That is not
>a pretence =96 rather a revelation of the psyche =96 Moreno called it the
>"theatre of truth" =96 a truth that we often could not safely reveal off
>stage.

        Revelation through the theatre of truth via role playing (fantasy).
Hmm-mmn, interesting logic.  The saftey of fantasy in bed with the truth of
disclosure.

>Right now, at this moment, I have a sense of being in a space that is
>very flexible =96 no clear audience or stage delineation, the more
>dramatic roles merge with the more social ones.  Robert is something
>of Bob, and also Sir Robert =96 his majesty.  Wilbur and I are here
>doing some clarifying, being facilitative, in roles we might take up
>more playfully or dramatically at other times.

        This *stage* is peopled with *people*. They are their own audience
as they are engaged in dialogue. The lurkers exist only in that they may
eventually join the dialgoue. Other than that, they are formless, voiceless,
faceless, and without presence -- not an audience at all.

        As for my *role*, what you see is what you get even, in f2f. I use
my real name, my real language, my real thoughts and my real emotion. I
don't need to confuse myself with fantasy roles, I have enough to occupy my
being as I wander through these dimensions (Cyberia and Realia): man, child,
father, husband, friend, foe, teacher, student, counsellor, counselled,
poet, philosopher, handyman, and sometimes lover/loved. Nobility comes from
within and is evident in relations that value honour, spirit, soul, and=
 voice.

        My spirit grates as it hears the prattle that goes in the guise of
*learned speech* and/or *small-talk*. The *posing* and *posturing* acts are
instances of directing talk to oneself rather than to a *subject*. There is
no conversation, no dialogue, no *communion of souls* (a *catholic* ideal --
notice the lower case "c"). I wonder if the approaches that take this
domaine as theatre as *play* can truly approach the full potential of this
domaine for discovery of the *self* through dialogue, the *self* of both
speaker and listener as their roles constantly change? This would allow us
to get yet a closer glimpse of the nature of the *beauty/beast* that we are.

>I trust that we can create a climate where if there is pain there is
>also nurturing.

        Create it? I doubt it! Be it? Yes, if we have the will.

Robert de Cyberie
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%   =20
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%=20
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sun Apr 21 03:38:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dawn & songs of morning
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:38:26 -0400

Hello, Psyberians!

In this lost and lonely weekend, I arise in the silent dawn to touch the
songs of morning....  Robert de Cyberie wrote: <<Who is this cyberspace?
Ghosts of physical bodies.>>  I offer the words of Henrik Ibsen, in
<<Ghosts>>:

"But I'm coming to believe that all of us are ghosts....  It's not just what
we inherit from our mothers and fathers.  It's also the shadows of dead ideas
and opinions and convictions. They're no longer alive, but they grip us all
the same, and hold on to us against our will.  All I have to do is open a
newspaper to see ghosts hovering between the lines.  They are haunting the
whole country, those stubborn phantoms--so many of them, so thick, they're
like an impenetrable dark mist.  And here we are, all of us, so abjectly
terrified of the light."

Do we come here to hide?  Or to find a light that illuminates the shadows in
which we live?  I cross the boundary of this ephemeral faerieland with a
tremulous sense of anticipation and wonder.  Here is a home for all the
creatures that I am: the cerebral scholar in search of knowledge to feed my
hungry mind; the white she-wolf who runs like quicksilver lightning through
my blood, seeking passion and adventure; the impetuous gypsy who would dance
with wild abandon under the stars; the empty soldier looking for a refuge
from the war... the student, the philosopher, the poet, the wounded healer...
the woman, the child....

The Spanish word "querencia" means a much-loved place--the place to which one
returns for healing of the spirit.  Is this not a definition of home?  Is
this not a definition of the glittering corriders of imaginal reality we
create together here?  Yes, Robert, <<This is a breath-taking place... this
Psyberia.>>

Marie
moonasylum@aol.com

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sun Apr 21 03:38:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Intro - Marie Tondreau
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:38:28 -0400

Hello, Psyberians!  I have been lurking for several days, and thought it was
time to walk out on stage with the rest of you.

I am in the middle of a midlife career transition, after working in a
commercial bank for nearly 9 years, mostly as an Investment Manager.  I'm
currently unemployed and working on a Master's Degree in Counseling
Psychology (with a concentration in organizational development).  Eventually,
I want to teach (at the college level), to work with people who are trying to
articulate their life patterns, and perhaps to consult in organizations.

I have a strong interest in constructivism (how people make meaning), in
narrative (how people communicate meaning), and in the transformative power
of myth and metaphor.  I believe that the world is in deep trouble on many
levels (economic, ecological, ideological) and that we, the children of the
earth, are at last beginning to face our responsibility as co-creators of the
myriad realities that shape the quality of our lives.  I believe that
organizations - particularly those involved in business and education - play
an important role both in contributing to dysfunction and in effecting
change.  My primary interest is in the well-being of the individual, but I
wholeheartedly believe that the development of learning organizations (as
depicted by Peter Senge in <<The Fifth Discipline>>) is essential for the
continued viability of organizations themselves.

I have been online only for the past few months, but I have found an
intellectual and a spiritual home here.  I am excited by the possibilities
for learning, and sharing, and personal expression.

What a journey this will be!  Take my hand, and walk with me....

Marie
moonasylum@aol.com

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sun Apr 21 03:58:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: my apologies
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 11:58:01 -0400

At 09:52 PM 4/19/96 -0400, you wrote:
<snip>

>part of it may be my adamant stand that technology is not transparent,
>nor will it be any time soon.(my recent experience with macos, past
>experiences with 95 and windows tell me so.. the technology is only as
>smart as the end user - but people might forget that)
>

The GUI is "In your face" if if you are a power user of the CLI, then you
can create an interface where a single letter or word does everything that
you want and need.. on the other hand, the GUI is almost always in your
face, and you are REQUIRED to do the routine mundane tasks with the mouse
(lots of eye hand coordination..)

As for myself, I touch type, and don't like have to loose text clarity in
order to waste screen space to icons, scroll bars, and the like.  I like the
monochome screen interface and like just having the text without any of the
icon images in my face all the time.

I believe that all of society will come to the point where they hate the
Windows interface and how lonely it is.  At least with CLI, you aren't
required to spend much time looking at the screen and doing coordinated
eye/hand operations.  With the "tunnel" interface, you may not have
something GUI to look at, but your imagination is free to run wild.

Wilbur
>- guis feed an ignorance about the computer, inspire technology to be
>seen as black boxish and possibly even magical (msft wizards in office).
>I feel that this is a dangerous thing.
>
>comments , please I want to discuss
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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>
>
>
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Apr 21 04:20:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: PSYBER: e-mail comm expressivity
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:20:52 GMT

Robert,

> <<Like so much of the Internet, the Web is an outlet for ego. I said in
> previous writings that the Internet is an arena for unpublished authors and
> actors with no audience.>> (Phillips, G.M., 1995. Luddites Lament).
>
>         The late Dr. Phillips of IPCT-L fame (a great listserv while he was
> alive and an active participant) wrote frequently about the nature of
> communication on-line.  I was struck by his reference to authors and actors,
> two important roles that we persue here on PSYBER-L.  However, I wonder
> about the comment <<an outlet for ego>>.

> Does not our work here at times
> let us step outside that very *ego* in our acting and authoring?

Ego:

archetype in its own right

no it is the enemy of archetype

That is role.

It is animus and should link up with the anima for the higher
marriage.

Strengthen it

No, drop it!

Make it more conscious!

The ego _should_ be in control of all the multiple personalities, the
CEO.

No!  subordinate it to the real self.

No that is not ego that is ID.

No,  that is an expression of vulnerability covered up by bravado

No it is the parent of his inner child . . . which is really the super
ego

. . .

Just a summary of future discussions on ego . . .  :-)


Where can we see Dr Phillips writings?

>         Maybe some of this is useful, maybe not.

What do you think?  Perhaps his writings are classics.  I would like
to see a list of URLs to classic texts related to the work here. I
started making it once  one of those shelved projects  perhaps we
could post references to the classics and web them somewhere.

BTW -- Dolores your last post must be a classic already!


Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Apr 21 04:39:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever..
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 16:39:29 GMT

Robert,


>                 La berceuse - the lullaby
>                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Je veux te bercer dans mes bras,
>                               te soulager
>                   en offrant mon coeur a le tien
>           un coeur legerement deguenille
>                                        par des annees perdues.
>
> I want to cradle you in my arms
>                               to comfort you
>                    offering my heart to yours
>            a heart lightly tattered
>                        by years long past and lost.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Robert de Cyberie


I like being here as you say that . . .

walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Apr 21 05:16:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever..
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:16:32 GMT

> Assorted ramblings..by the slightly squiffy and not in a very good mood.
> Probably makes no sense.. what the hell. It'll give Fred something to stick
> his crucifix into.

I laughed!     And  felt moved  by your words here . . . great that
you bring them.



> The price the net extracts is your dissasociation from reality.

This line got me.

Ill ramble back . . .

It is the hardest thing for me to live my two lives.  I have a very
busy practice -- one i value -- and enjoy, and am still building.
Kate (partner) & Rebecka (daughter) & Brook (friend)   live in our
large old house -- I am not fully available to the many people here --
this world does not really interest them.  Kate listens to me about it
-- from the outside.  We are in the midst of major bathroom
renovations.  I love movies, books, rock climbing, skiing . . .

This is all a bit much!  I could be here full time & it would do me no
good.  At present i manage it, just -- I need little sleep.   i have
not got into irc because I can work with the time structure email
provides -- half an email between clients, take the laptop to dinner
for a quiet read.

I feel motivated. I believe in this Psybernet project -- I think it is
important.   I am intent on building and writing more in cyberspace.

I do not want one life to wreck the other -- that is a danger.  My
relationship  with Kate seems to survive my absence.


The closer we get to people who are a long way away, the further we
are from those who are physically near by.  (did I see that in Wired?)



What a bummer.


Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Apr 21 05:54:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language, relationships and sex
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 17:54:15 GMT

Replying to my own post!

> This is all a bit much!  I could be here full time & it would do me no
> good.  At present i manage it, just -- I need little sleep.   i have
> not got into irc because I can work with the time structure email
> provides -- half an email between clients, take the laptop to dinner
> for a quiet read.

And what is probably glaringly obvious -- is that I have feelings
about the sexual aspects of irc.  I am resistant to sexuality on the
net . . . I am perhaps vulnerable to its dangers?  I dont _want_ to
explore it . . . and as i said ages ago -- what about experiential
learning then?  How can i know about cs if i do not go into one of its
most powerful realms?

Heels dig in . . .


Maybe look at:

http://web2.airmail.net/walraven/romance.htm

?


w

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 21 06:25:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro - Marie Tondreau
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 12:25:08 -0600

Bonjour, Marie!

        It's so nice to hear a new voice, especially one that has seen fit
to mention me in a post.  Your first post blends well with the notions that
I had hoped to communicate.

>Hello, Psyberians!  I have been lurking for several days, and thought it
>was time to walk out on stage with the rest of you.

        The *stage* is large with not an over-abundance of *players*. The
*play* is as of yet unwritten (it's to a co-production of the actors and
actresses under the direction of ??? and Walter I presume).

>I have a strong interest in constructivism (how people make meaning), in
>narrative (how people communicate meaning), and in the transformative
>power of myth and metaphor.

        You have indeed come to the right place if I have read right the
vision that Walter has given us of this, his creation and god-child. Since
there are so many new faces since I joined in late March, I will take the
time to re-visit my own intro.

        I am a high school teacher, CMC researcher, sometimes counsellor,
poet and philosopher in western Canada. I am a francophone from eastern
Canada who thought to bridge the cultural/linguistic gap between the English
and the French of this country (a losing battle).  I am father to three: a
girl of 21 who has recently married and is now expecting (I'll become
PEPERE--GRANDPA in late July); a girl of 19 who is working and still
"thinking" schooling and of becoming a teacher; and a son of 16 who is
constantly falling in love, listening to music, playing hockey, and learning
to voice his uniqueness and independence.

        I have very dark brown hair and am 5'7" tall with the typical dark
complection of the French. In my younger days (I am now 46), I ran to keep
myself sane and fit: Cross-country, 10K, 20K, and marathons. Today, I
alternate between meditation, poetry, philosophy, and CMC dialogue as the
means to fill in those cracks that would let shadow become too strong. I
have developed heel spurs which now limit my running (as a result, I have
gained unwanted weight and do not resemble the stereotypical image of a
long-distance runner.

        What I am trying to do here, is to put some context to the signature
that one sees when I am present. I am married. The lady is beautiful and a
good mother. Our years together now number 4 months short of 25 years. I
wonder if we will make it much further. Life is full of questions.

        In my youth I wandered at will across this land I call home with my
guitar, backpack, and poetry. I was a roving bard with long hair, beard, and
sandals--a flowerchild of the sixties. Now, my hair is short, my guitar sits
unused in the basement, the beard disappeared four years ago, the poet went
silent for nearly twenty years and has just been resurrected from the musty
depths of two journals re-discovered in a box not too many years ago. This
has been my mid-life crisis.

>I have been online only for the past few months, but I have found an
>intellectual and a spiritual home here.  I am excited by the possibilities
>for learning, and sharing, and personal expression.

        I hear here the echo that rinks out like a symphony. Could it be
that we form a choir here that would rival the _Monks of Santo Domigo de Silos_?

>What a journey this will be!  Take my hand, and walk with me....
       With pleasure, I extend my hand as I'm sure does all who now call
this yet another one of their homes, a <<deuxieme foyer>>.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 21 08:54:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Netsex..etc etc etc
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:54:44 -0600

Laurel, Walter and other Psyberians,

>I truly believe that you cannot understand the psychology of cyber space
>and its users fully until you have experienced first hand just how
>important sex is on the web/email/newsgroups/lists.

        One cannot understand the nature of communication without awareness
of the sexual nature of our converse.

>My perspective on sex has changed considerably. As an ex Catholic
>two of the things I did too well were guilt and shame.

        Some of us still are victim to the guilt and shame that the Catholic
churc has gifted us with--still we grow and learn and dance in the fires.

>Netsex is beneficial  because it requires complete openness. It has by its
>very nature to be graphic in content. Good netsex has to be imaginative,
>playfull, open and honest. Bad netsex is just typing a few staid and well
>repeated phrases, most often prevelant in bad porn flicks.  Here age
>shows, and its interesting to note that the younger the person, the more
>likely it is to be a means to a rather messy end. There is no quality to
>the text, theres no emotional investment.

        I knew growing older had some benefits :)

>I think it helps to understand what people require in
>real life sexual experiences.  I think it has a ripple effect into real
>life relationships both good and bad.

        Again, this mirrors real-time reality. Experimental contact,
converse allow us to approach fully understanding our own sexual nature.

>The psychological benefits of netsexing are completely ignored.
>Why I believe this is very much Jung's medium is that the exploration of
>our dark sides is possible here in a way not so easily available in real
>life. I hate the term real life. Because Cyberspace is very much a
>reality.. a parallel existance.

        Walter, what now? Do we take the dare to delve into this psychology
of the listserv?  Laurel, you are indeed right, this is reality -- one of
its millions, billions of faces.

>I suppose the drawback to this is that ultimatly you want more. You become
>dissatisfied with what real life is offering, and disatisfied because you
>cannot touch the person, hold them, see how they laugh, smile, what their
>eyes are really saying.

        We are not our body, nor our mind: yet, we are both as well! We are
spiritual beings, intellectual beings, social beings, and biological beings.
Each of these is valid, but we are not defined by one or even their sum.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 21 08:55:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever..
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 14:55:42 -0600

Walter,

>It is the hardest thing for me to live my two lives.  I have a very
>busy practice -- one i value -- and enjoy, and am still building.
>Kate (partner) & Rebecka (daughter) & Brook (friend)   live in our
>large old house -- I am not fully available to the many people here --
>this world does not really interest them.  Kate listens to me about it
>-- from the outside.

        Reading your words, I see the the danger that you are facing here.
There is fire here that sears one to the core, energy that can call forth
changes that the author never asks for. Be careful, my friend. This ground
is not a playground of make-believe. It is the testing ground of the psyche.

>We are in the midst of major bathroom
>renovations.  I love movies, books, rock climbing, skiing . . .

        Messy tasks, bathroom renovations, messy and real.

>This is all a bit much!  I could be here full time & it would do me no
>good.

        This is a value statement: <it would do me no good.> Is it possible
to really be certain of goodness and badness? If so, then why the flirtation
with something, some power that <would do me no good>? I know that I am
playing with words here. I understand that you mean your real-time life has
value that is higher than the value of your on-line life. Yet I would tempt
you to take the centre of the *dance* space.

>At present i manage it, just -- I need little sleep.   i have
>not got into irc because I can work with the time structure email
>provides -- half an email between clients, take the laptop to dinner
>for a quiet read.

        I also do not voyage into the realm of irc ... fear ... However, I
do not take my Pentium to dinner.

>I feel motivated. I believe in this Psybernet project -- I think it is
>important.   I am intent on building and writing more in cyberspace.
>
>I do not want one life to wreck the other -- that is a danger.  My
>relationship  with Kate seems to survive my absence.

        But does it grow? Do you grow even in the absence? What is growing
within? what is being lost?

>The closer we get to people who are a long way away, the further we
>are from those who are physically near by.  (did I see that in Wired?)

        But, we are not that far away, only a touch of the keyboard. That's
what makes this place so dangerous. Heed Laurel's words. That's also what
makes this place so beautiful. Just don't be taken in by the words of the
poets and pests who touch that part of you you set free in these spaces.
Listen and grow.

>And what is probably glaringly obvious -- is that I have feelings
>about the sexual aspects of irc.  I am resistant to sexuality on the
>net . . . I am perhaps vulnerable to its dangers?  I dont _want_ to
>explore it . . . and as i said ages ago -- what about experiential
>learning then?  How can i know about cs if i do not go into one of its
>most powerful realms?

        Truly? I hear your words to Tama, to myself, to Laurel and others.
The sexuality of these dialogues are raw and potent. As I mentioned before,
all authentic dialogue has a sexual aspect. Listen to the inuendo, to the
silences, listen to the whispers, listen to the *connections* and
*relations* that frolic here in PSYBER-L. You don't have to wander to the
irc channels.

        A few glimpses of the irc and its messy carnal nature were enough
for me. The poet within, the philosopher within, decided to retreat to these
more gentle and thoughtful spaces to meet with soul-kin, kin-dred spirits.

Robert de Cyberie

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From mrosen@DIALNSA.EDU Sun Apr 21 13:51:07 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: my apologies
From: "Marah Rosenberg~203-748-8835" <mrosen@DIALNSA.EDU>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 21:51:07 -0400

> >
>
> The GUI is "In your face" if if you are a power user of the CLI, then you
> can create an interface where a single letter or word does everything that
> you want and need.. on the other hand, the GUI is almost always in your
> face, and you are REQUIRED to do the routine mundane tasks with the mouse
> (lots of eye hand coordination..)
>
- wilbur -
what is cli?

I am glad to find that i am not alone in my dislike of icon based
interface. now, if I could control the icons - that would be neat.
I hope that you are correct in your perdictions that people will stop
liking the gui as it is.  I  am curios as to what you mean by lonely?

I wonder if people are going to be in to programming their own interface...

-=m

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sun Apr 21 15:57:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: my apologies
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:57:10 -0400

At 09:51 PM 4/20/96 -0400, you wrote:
>> >
>>
>> The GUI is "In your face" if if you are a power user of the CLI, then you
>> can create an interface where a single letter or word does everything that
>> you want and need.. on the other hand, the GUI is almost always in your
>> face, and you are REQUIRED to do the routine mundane tasks with the mouse
>> (lots of eye hand coordination..)
>>
>- wilbur -
>what is cli?

CLI is short for Command Line Interface.. or a text based interface, ie DOS
or Unix.

>
>I am glad to find that i am not alone in my dislike of icon based
>interface. now, if I could control the icons - that would be neat.
>I hope that you are correct in your perdictions that people will stop
>liking the gui as it is.

Me too, I'm betting my future on it..

>I  am curios as to what you mean by lonely?

It's pretty dehumanizing to spend a lot of time staring at a computer
screen. Whether it's a GUI or a CLI.  I've heard songs and other displays of
humanity that curse the computer interface and the time that it takes us
away from talking with others..  As for myself, I worked in a big corporate
environment for the last 3 years, so spending time at the computer screen is
quite a change and and a shock.. but I've chosen to do that for quite a few
reasons.  But I get a real high when I get to spend time with people now,
whereas last year I didn't want much to do with people, since I saw them all
the time in meetings and such.  Now it's a joy to spend time with people on
the weekends, since I spend most of the week doing things by myself at the
keyboard.  At the same time, though, I understand that my internal being
doesn't appreciate that there isn't a place in this world where I can just
be human and be accepted.  I have to subjigate my internal desires in order
to make a living, in order to fit into this world.  That subjigation from's
from a lot of sources, the BS on TV, the News media, the constant lack of
attention to the individual requirements of the people in the world.  In
short, as an individual, I'm forced to accept the world and then reach for
individual fulfillment inside the framework of that world.  Today's world is
filled with technology designed to make life "easier" that enslaves us to
the keyboard and the screen.  (gee, I'm beginning to sound like the Unabomber?)

I used to have a problem with smoking pot, one that I didn't have the means
to control, so metaphorically at least, I chained myself to an IBM PC until
my head cleared.  I spent 6 hours of 8 hours a day or more at the screen of
an IBM PC in 1982 in order to break myself of the craving for pot.  I came
to know the inside of the PC, (I mean ALL of the technology) because I read
everything that was available.  I wrote software for it, I amused myself
with understanding EVERYTHING about the computer as a way to keep myself
busy between the bouts of desire to get high.  I knew that as long as I was
looking at the computer screen, I wasn't putting on my jacket and going out
to get high.  I'm quite aware that there were familial influences in doing
this, but I also saw this understanding of the computer as a took to getting
out of the unskilled dead end that I was in, (despite being really bright in
math and science, and a straight "A" student right up until I got so fed up
with college that I dropped out..)  I realized that the computer technology
was going to give me a chance to be indespensible, and I went after that
technology with a vengence.

It's not a bad thing to know the PC inside and out, being as intelligent and
intellectually agressive as I am and spending that much time with a PC means
that I DO know the computer inside and out, right down to the chip level..
It eventually got to the point that I could hear and feel the people that
did the design of the technology.. Even today I seem to have an internal
dialog that I can resort to in order to solve any technology issue.  I can
simply ask myself "How did they create this design" or "why is this working
this way" and usually see the sorts of discussions and design trade off's
that were done in the technology.  It a sort of "outside the lines"
communcation, but it really helps close the design space of a problem.  It
really helps to form an assumption of how a technology would/should have
been developed, and then check out the actual design.  I'm now at the point
where I can pick up a design in a matter of hours, and resolve high design
problems in minutes.  I seem to have communication skills of a different
sort, the ability to communicate with the design realities of computer
technology.

But in order to have my intellect reach that level, it's was and is quite
painful (ie. lonely).  In order to master a new technology, I have to engage
in total immersion and get to the point that I'm conversant with the ideas
of the field.  I eventually can tell the sort of mentality of the people
that are the founders of a particular line of thought.  (Einstein for
example, was a brilliant visual thinker..)  That's not a place that is very
friendly, and most people don't understand that place very well, and even
worse hate that I'm able to get to that place, and are jealous about or
competative with my ability.

There was a post a yesterday or today about "Ghosts" that described that we
are just the embodiement of all that have come before.  We carry around the
thoughts and ideals, misinformation and mistaken belief of those that came
before.  I've known that for what seems like all of my life.  I'm not sure
if my parents know that, but it seems to me that I've always known it.  I
don't except an idea until I can see the person where it originated from,
and then I don't accept an idea without understanding how it fit into it's
origination.  That's a very lonely place.  Doing the work necessary to be in
that place separates me from most people, and spending the time at the
computer screen is lonely.

I have some theories about that, some of the theories that I used to come to
the position that it's time to put a human face onto the computer screen.
The theory is that being with a person face to face is where we are
happiest.  I don't know if that is by biological design, or if it is by
training from the infant state, but I do know that the greatest amount of
communcation happens face to face, and that it's hard to treat a person as
"less than human" when you are there with them "face to face".  So as a way
to maybe reduce the lonlyness in the world, and maybe reduce "man's
inhumanity to man" I intend to put a face on the computer.  (* Mine at
first.. other's later.. *)  Maybe then I'll find the place where that
lonlyness doesn't exist anymore.  Where I'm not a "Ghost" anymore and I'm
just free to live my life without the influence of the "Ghosts".

These thoughts to on for quite a while, but I think that's expressive enough..

>
>I wonder if people are going to be in to programming their own interface...
>

I've already had a bunch of people ask me if they will be able to put their
own face on the computer.  ( I told them that I'm sure at some point I'll
set up a service for $49.95 where I'll do that for them.. )

( Yes, I know this is very weird.. but's what's even more wierd is that I'm
not kidding )

---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sun Apr 21 18:43:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: culture
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:43:41 -0400

Hello, Psyberians!

Pixy wrote:

<<A topic I did not see mentioned was that of culture.  The issue of the
unique culture of cyberspace is a really interesting one that seems to be
well within the purview of this listserv.  I'd like to throw it out to you
all: what do you think.>>

Robert Kegan (a Harvard psychologist) provides an evocative concept of
culture that seems especially relevant here:

"This psychosocial environment... is the particular form of the world in
which the person is, at this moment in his or her own evolution, embedded.
 Since this is the very context in which, and out of which, the person grows,
I have come to think of it as a culture of embeddedness.  'Culture'  here is
meant to evoke both an accumulating history and mythology and something grown
in a medium in a Petri dish" (<<The Evolving Self,>> 1982, pp. 115-116).

While I do not like the image of myself as "something grown in a medium in a
Petri dish," I like the idea that culture is that which surrounds me, that
which holds me and nourishes my growth.  Kegan later writes that:

"When the counselor responds to the problem not in terms of assurance, or its
resolution, or its interpretation, but in terms of the experience of having,
or being in, the problem, the counselor is offering the client a most
intimate and usually unexpected companionship - not as another object in the
world, but as a fellow hanger-in-the-balance, a companion to my very
experience of knowing (meaning-making) and a party to the re-cognition whose
time has come.  The counselor is offering the client a culture to grow in"
(p. 276).

Is this not what we attempt to do here: provide for each other a culture to
grow in?

Marie
moonasylum@aol.com

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sun Apr 21 18:43:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: animus and anima
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 02:43:41 -0400

Dolores wrote:

<<I only roughly understand the terms animus and anima.  I'd be interested if
somebody <<would like to explain.  This is something that netsex also brings
to the fore.  If they <<are our soul images manifest or projected in dreams
myths and fantasys, what better <<place to find or explore them than on the
net.  But as I said Im not entirely sure yet <<what Jung really meant.

Interesting!  I will explain what I understand.  Jung believed that a man has
a primarily masculine conscious and a feminine unconscious, while the
opposite is true for a woman.  Thus, the animus is the inner masculine side
of the female psyche, while the anima is the inner feminine side of the male
psyche.  In our society, the masculine side of women tends to be oppressed,
and the feminine side of men is devalued; both are therefore often repressed
and unacknowledged.

Like the shadow (the dark and private, animal side of human nature), the
images of the animus or anima often take on a personified form, drawn from a
prehistoric resevoir of imagery in the collective unconscious, and are
projected onto others.  According to Jung, when a man is under the spell of
this unconscious projection, he is unable to recognize the real nature of the
actual woman in question; frequently, it is the man's anima that meets and
falls in love with the woman's animus!  (The opposite is true for women.)

Jung's concept of individuation requires that these contrasexual parts of the
self be balanced, that men must integrate the disowned feminine aspects of
their personality (anima) and that women must integrate the repressed
masculine aspects of their personality (animus) in order to be whole.

So you are right.  The animus and anima are <<our soul images manifest or
projected in dreams, myths and fantasys.>>  I think this is key to
understanding the power - and the danger - of netsex.  The unconscious images
of the soul are primitive, born of our animal heritage.  The cybersex sites
that I have seen feed the carnal, the bestial, the raging beast within.  When
I can reach and integrate my masculine side, that energy enhances my passion,
my fire, my wild flights of sensuality - it becomes a part of me and all that
I am.  If I only feed the beast, it will soon grow big and strong enough to
devour me.

Rainer Maria Rilke wrote that "all emotions are pure which gather you and
lift you up; that emotion is impure which seizes only one side of your being
and so distorts you."  I do not wish to encounter projections bred in the
dark recesses of my psyche on the net; of such primal stuff are nightmares
made!  If there is netsex that can gather me and lift me up, I have not
experienced it.

I hope this is helpful.

Marie
moonasylum@aol.com

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Mon Apr 22 07:18:53 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever..
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:18:53 GMT

Robert,

>         Reading your words, I see the danger that you are facing here.
> There is fire here that sears one to the core, energy that can call forth
> changes that the author never asks for. Be careful, my friend. This ground
> is not a playground of make-believe. It is the testing ground of the psyche.

Robert, I have enjoyed seeing the attention you often give people and
appreciate it now as you respond to me.  Opening up on these matters
as they relate to me is a good experience so far as you and Dolores &
others have responded so thoughtfully.

Danger.  Yes I will be careful, I think I am.  Please all do that, you
too Robert, your relationship and mid life crisis will need attention.
Yet how to do that?  Right now I am here, feeling met.  Attending to
myself, this list (god what a silly word) and being met.  How could I
be more caring?  It is Sunday afternoon, I have been visiting a
friend, stopping for a cup of coffee and a bite in a favourite spot
and have my toshiba and Psyber-L, then off to see a friend in
hospital.

Bit os a shock to bring so much rl into the conversation here, I
experienced that in the post from Barbara where she mentioned Dunedin
(where Tama lives) and also Christchurch, where I live.  I have been
present in a world shaped by metaphor, and the bathroom and cities
intrude!  Yet I do not want there to be a stone wall between the two
worlds .

>         Messy tasks, bathroom renovations, messy and real.

Exactly!

> with something, some power that <would do me no good>? I know that I am
> playing with words here. I understand that you mean your real-time life has
> value that is higher than the value of your on-line life. Yet I would tempt
> you to take the centre of the *dance* space.

Hmmm, would do me no good because my rl is "Primary"  this psyber
life needs the rl, but not higher as such.  I value psyche and this is
where it lives to some extent, with out my soul I am dead too!  I do
have a soul life away from here to be sure, but this is valuable.

>Yet I would tempt you to take the centre of the *dance* space.

I am _here_  I do not know if it is the centre.  I am here and I see
some others, I am the focus of a few!  I am conflicted in the spot I
am in.  Can the list owner dance their own list?  Can the facilitator
dance?  I do not want an answer, please notice the conflict!  The
other side of it is that I appreciate the invitation be invited out
like that.

>         I also do not voyage into the realm of irc ... fear ... However, I
> do not take my Pentium to dinner.

Ah, now it is a dance, as you share Robert and I am not alone in the
spot that might or might not be the centre.  ... fear ... you say.
You also say, perhaps to your self, that the sexuality inherent in our
relationships here is present in the list!  I loved hearing that, in
some ways this _is_ our learning, _my_ learning about "netsex", and
that is fantastic.  Do you feel afraid of it here?  I feel OK, on my
growing edge as it were.

> >I do not want one life to wreck the other -- that is a danger.  My
> >relationship  with Kate seems to survive my absence.
>
>         But does it grow? Do you grow even in the absence? What is growing
> within? what is being lost?

Yes it grows, imo, she is away with her work buddies this weekend, and
Ill see her tonight & see what she thinks on that matter, I bet it is
mutual!  (lets see).

>         But, we are not that far away, only a touch of the keyboard. That's
> what makes this place so dangerous.

Physically far and close in other ways, yes that is what I meant.

Dangerous?  You seem to move between caution and courage in the face
of it!  I think I do that too.

> Heed Laurel's words.

I listen to her.  I think we both appreciate her in this place.  Speak
about facilitation!

> That's also what
> makes this place so beautiful. Just don't be taken in by the words of the
> poets and pests who touch that part of you you set free in these spaces.
> Listen and grow.

. . . don't be taken in . . . be taken . . .  in . . . intimacy . . .
taken , held,  . . . be taken . . . be held . . . dance . . .

> >And what is probably glaringly obvious -- is that I have feelings
> >about the sexual aspects of irc.  I am resistant to sexuality on the
> >net . . . I am perhaps vulnerable to its dangers?  I dont _want_ to
> >explore it . . . and as i said ages ago -- what about experiential
> >learning then?  How can i know about cs if i do not go into one of its
> >most powerful realms?
>
>         Truly? I hear your words to Tama, to myself, to Laurel and others.
> The sexuality of these dialogues are raw and potent. As I mentioned before,
> all authentic dialogue has a sexual aspect. Listen to the inuendo, to the
> silences, listen to the whispers, listen to the *connections* and
> *relations* that frolic here in PSYBER-L. You don't have to wander to the
> irc channels.

Yes and yes and yes.  Yes truly I dig my heels, and yes I encourage
others to be here and yes I love it that you encourage me, and yes I
see also that you are encouraging you!


>         A few glimpses of the irc and its messy carnal nature were enough
> for me. The poet within, the philosopher within, decided to retreat to these
>more gentle and thoughtful spaces to meet with soul-kin, kin-dred spirits.

Is that a retreat in the face of  danger?  What is this danger!  I
want to face it rather than retreat.  I do not retreat from poison or
alcohol or nicotine, I just don't partake in excess.


A great dance Robert  thanks.



Walter

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From AThomas561@AOL.COM Mon Apr 22 08:52:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: New girl in psyberspace
From: Alyss Thomas <AThomas561@AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 16:52:13 -0400

Hi everyone,  I have just joined the list. I'm a psychotherapist in the UK,
humanistic-integrative variety, I'm in private practice and am also into
groups. And literature, transformative metaphor, psychoanalysis, surfing. The
recent conversation about the nature of net relationships reminds me of some
viewpoints on the therapeutic relationship - the promises it holds and yet
can't deliver; the fact that you can be so perfectly met, understood and
'held' - and yet you can't have the person, they are with someone else,
somewhere else.  And the people you can have, who are there with you, don't
understand so deeply or so well. A sense of loss seems to be built into some
of our most precious attachments. The other thing I find interesting is that
if  the unconscious mind/soul doesn't really have a conception of time and
space - memories, relationships  and feeling states etc remain present and
real no matter when they happened , thus objects or persons in cyberspace can
be mentally and emotionally just as significant and present as those in
dreamspace, or in any other slightly altered state. I don't really agree with
the Lonely Nerd approach to cyber relating. It does't replace real time
relating any more than dreaming replaces waking reality. There may be people
who sleep all the time, but they would perhaps be unwell or in crisis or
undergoing a shamanic transformation.

 I'd be interested in discussing metaphor and also supervision if anyone else
is.I've been having a pretty 'interesting' midlife crisis sort of thing, just
emerging from a long period of depression and immersion in my own interior
life - so coming out into the interconnected world feels especially important
right now.
I hope to have wonderful new conversations... Kind regards, Alyss Thomas.

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Mon Apr 22 09:46:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: New girl in psyberspace
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 15:46:51 -0600

Hello Alyss,

        You have a partner in your corner of the world who has been a
frequent contributor here, Laurel/Dolores. Welcome to Pysberia which knows
no nationalistic boundaries.

        >I'm a psychotherapist in the UK,
        >humanistic-integrative variety

        Ahh-hh! Perls, Jung, Rogers (perhaps a little dash of Hammerstein?).
I think we snared another good one here, Walter!

>The recent conversation about the nature of net relationships reminds me
>of some viewpoints on the therapeutic relationship - the promises it holds
>and yet can't deliver; the fact that you can be so perfectly met,
>understood and 'held' - and yet you can't have the person, they are with
>someone else, somewhere else.

        What an idea!  Do I understand that the soul-mate that one meets
here is *hands off* in real-time? Does it matter if either or both are
connected in relation with other(s) -- a *moral* issue? Which is more moral,
to suffer separation from the one who is so perfectly met, understood and
'held', or the one to whom we are attached to be social and legal custom?

>The other thing I find interesting is that
>if  the unconscious mind/soul doesn't really have a conception of time and
>space - memories, relationships  and feeling states etc remain present and
>real no matter when they happened , thus objects or persons in cyberspace can
>be mentally and emotionally just as significant and present as those in
>dreamspace, or in any other slightly altered state.

        Could they be just as significant as those in real-time space?

>I've been having a pretty 'interesting' midlife crisis sort of thing, just
>emerging from a long period of depression and immersion in my own interior
>life

        That makes two of us who have come out of the *mid-life crisis*
closet. As a poet/philosopher/counsellor/teacher/parent/spouse/person, I am
enjoying the connectivity with soul-kin here on PSYBER-L. I think you will
too, Alyss.

Robert de Cyberie

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Mon Apr 22 21:21:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 11:21:02 +0200

 Re: PSYBER: Sharmila Pixy Ferris
Pixy to Robert:
>>>
Robert>  Exactly! I am surprised of the synchronocity here. My last post
> (PSYBER: Dawn & songs of morning) touched upon that very theme. IMHO, there
> is no real understanding of the psychology of a list/listserv without
> understanding its anthropology.
Pixy:
I couldn't agree more. One problem here is that a good anthropologist
must immerse him/herself in the culture, but problems of time and other
commitments often prevent that in a cyberculture such as this one.
Another problem is the relative youth of the medium.  The culture is
growing and developing, so studying it from within is like a fish
studying water --soemthing that McLuhan says can't be done effectively
<<<
If a culture is developing , we as being knowingly aware of this growth
have an opportunity to sample it, analyze the samples and collect outco-
mes in a description language. If there are sufficiently many descriptions,
common patterns begin to emerge - leading to first hypotheses having to be
tested, reformulated a.s.o. - the dry stuff of science, indeed.
I'd like to venture this sort of gathering in the thread on e-mail comm expres-
sivity and repeat my invitation here in precise terms:

If you'd like to describe how e-mailing *feels* to you personally,
I'll gather the storys and translate abstracts of them into the common
description language of psychology
As you may glean from my first resume, contributors will be mentioned by name,
and the essentials of their contribution will be described in a possibly
generalized way.
You're free to ask questioons, offer comments and the things you ever wanted
to tell me.
But - without your conttributions I'm an anthropologist without a culture
to immerse in.
Happy to read from you,
Mila

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Mon Apr 22 22:47:35 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: animus and anima
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 11:47:35 +0100

Dear Marie,

Thank you for taking the time to write and explain Jung
.

>Jung's concept of individuation requires that these contrasexual parts of the
>self be balanced, that men must integrate the disowned feminine aspects of
>their personality (anima) and that women must integrate the repressed
>masculine aspects of their personality (animus) in order to be whole.

Er..Amen to that.
>
>So you are right.  The animus and anima are <<our soul images manifest or
>projected in dreams, myths and fantasys.>>  I think this is key to
>understanding the power - and the danger - of netsex.  The unconscious images
>of the soul are primitive, born of our animal heritage.  The cybersex sites
>that I have seen feed the carnal, the bestial, the raging beast within.  When
>I can reach and integrate my masculine side, that energy enhances my passion,
>my fire, my wild flights of sensuality - it becomes a part of me and all that
>I am.  If I only feed the beast, it will soon grow big and strong enough to
>devour me.

This is fascinating.. Why do you think that so many men wander in disguise
as women, do you think they are unconciously trying to get in touch with
their feminine sides?  Is then Homosexuality..excess anima? Lesbianism
excess Animus? Bisexuality..perfect harmony?  I have met or known of dozens
of men who have wandered the net in feminine guise, but never any women
attempting the reverse. I did try it once as an experiment..but was told
that I acquired all the worse male traits, as a man even I didnt even like
myself very much. I felt exceedingly uncomfortable too.  Yet getting touch
with a more male side of my femininity as you say enhances my
passion...Completely different from an irc gender change for me at least.
I understand exactly what your saying too about integrating the masculine side.
Im extremely gratefull Im a woman actually .I couldnt deal with all that
Testosterone and macho competitiveness. A touch of it however is nice.
Men are taught in some ways that to show emotion is almost a weakness..I
personally think *real* men cry and eat quiche. I am convinced that in
cyberspace men are able to get more in touch with their emotions. This is a
medium of emotion as well as the imagination.

>I hope this is helpful.
>
It was...very. Thankyou


Dolores

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Tue Apr 23 04:06:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: animus and anima
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 12:06:27 -0400

Dolores,

I am not an expert on Jung by any means, but this thread engages me.

<<Why do you think that so many men wander in disguise as women, do you think
they are unconsciously trying to get in touch with their feminine sides?  Is
the Homosexuality..excess anima?  Lesbianism excess animus?>>

Jung believed that some homosexuality was the result of an overidentification
with the animus or anima, but I think this would be restricted to those who
express an opposite gender identity in the world in some way.  Transvestites
do not always seek sex with members of the same gender; a male transvestite
may still desire women.  There seems to be a biological, hormonal component
to sexual desire that is independent of the twists and turns of the psyche.
 In many ways, my masculine side has been more pronounced that my feminine
side.  I am the oldest of five children; my father expected (demanded!) that
I be strong, smart, ambitious, self-reliant.  The expression of emotion was
swiftly ridiculed and suppressed ("if you want to cry, I'll give you
something to cry about").  I internalized his expectations, learning to value
my intellect and trying to control anything in me that seemed weak or too
emotional.  I worked in a very masculine culture in the corporate world
(Investment Manager in a commercial bank), and there, too, I was rewarded for
my more "masculine" attributes.  Yet I do not desire women, and I have always
experienced myself as essentially female (even in all the years that I spent
trying to deny my femininity).  I can imagine making love with a woman, and
enjoying the experience; I have no doubt that I could respond physically and
emotionally to the embrace of a woman.  However, my pulse has never quickened
at the thought of holding a woman in my arms.  There is a pervasive sense of
*other* with a man that excites me in the depths of my being, that stirs my
blood in some primal way that has nothing to do with my mind at all....

<<Bisexuality..perfect harmony?>>  Jung came to believe that wholeness meant
to achieve a state of selfhood and self-realization that required the
unconscious to become conscious--a fluid integration of ego, persona, shadow,
animus/anima.  A marriage or communion of male and female, rationality and
instinct, outer face and inner voice.  Would this "perfect harmony" lead to
bisexual expression?  I don't know.  I think not for me.

I am new to this place, and usually reticent about revealing myself to
strangers--never mind sharing intimate reflections on sexuality!  I don't
feel like a stranger here.  Thank you for being open; it helps me feel safe
enough to share who I am.

Marie
moonasylum@aol.com

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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Tue Apr 23 07:13:47 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: animus and anima
From: "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 14:13:47 -0500

>From Marie---

>Jung's concept of individuation requires that these contrasexual parts of the
>self be balanced, that men must integrate the disowned feminine aspects of
>their personality (anima) and that women must integrate the repressed
>masculine aspects of their personality (animus) in order to be whole.

>From Laurel---

>This is fascinating.. Why do you think that so many men wander in disguise
>as women, do you think they are unconciously trying to get in touch with
>their feminine sides?...I have met or known of dozens of men who have
>wandered the net in feminine guise, but never any women
>attempting the reverse.

**********************************************************

Hmm...this is an interesting area...is it really true that only men
experiment with their sexual identity in cyberspace?  Or is it possible that
the ability to "try on" alternative personalities is more a matter of the
willingness to experiment with the various aspects of the self...to give
these aspects a face and push them out of the nest for public display and
interaction?   Personally, I have an intense curiousity to see my "self" in
various guises...in other words, I want to see how I perform in various
roles.  Is this the desire of a twisted mind or of an individual intent on
exploring his own interior reality?  In my opinion, the answer depends upon
the set of moral principles which guide the resulting interactions...the
same road can lead to a higher, better integrated self in one direction
while opening on the "the carnal, the bestial, the raging beast" the other
way.  (Hmm...is this the time to mention being Lassie on the #dogsex channel?)

In cyberspace, as was noted by both Marie and Laurel, the avenue of netsex
forms a broad and bustling highway running through the center of a teeming
emotional landscape.  To ignore this aspect of cyberspace is to purposefully
overlook one of its major sources of energy.  Fortunately or unfortunately,
there are no speed limits here and no way to penetrate easily the various
guises one encounters.  This is why issues such as deception are so
important.  I have no doubt, for example, that this landscape is
increasingly littered with the twisted bleeding bodies of cyberspace
roadkill.  This is sad but true.  As Walter has pointed out...not all who
enter cyberspace are equipped to handle the resulting intimacy.

The point of this letter (assuming, of course, that it has one) is to point
out the overlap of sexual identity exploration, deception, and time.  In my
view, the concept of a "one night stand" in real life is rife with
sexual/social innuendo and prejudgment.  I wonder, however, whether the
connotations of this sort of real life activity also apply in cyberspace?
Certainly, there is no danger of sexually transmitted diseases (other than
computer viruses...hehe).  In fact, I suspect that it would be an
interesting and useful topic to consider the role of cyberspace/internet
relay chat networks as "laboratories" for psychosexual exploration...as
testing grounds for various aspects of the self.  The focus on sex is merely
the initial entry ticket since it is an easy avenue to link the imagination
with the emotions, the intellect, and the physical body.  Deception in this
milieu is not a problem IF (big if) one enters this "laboratory" committed
for only a single encounter.  (The development of dedicated sites for this
sort of exploratory activity would probably help to clarify initial
expectations.)  Deception becomes a major problem, however, when the desire
is for a longer term committment.  Does this differentiate males and females
in any way...and, if so, why?  What are the healthy and unhealthy aspects of
the "one night stand" in cyberspace?  Doesn't the development of true
intimacy in cyberspace require foregoing all deception and being willing to
reveal one's innermost self devoid of all artifice?

All comments welcome.  Enquiring minds want to know.


Steven

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Tue Apr 23 10:23:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever..
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 16:23:00 -0600

I have been following with interest the dialogue about Cyberia and it 's
effect on human lives.  I am a newbie; have only been on the internet for
a few months.  But for me, there is no comparison between this
communication and face to face.  I wonder if the reason it is so easy to
bare one's soul or mind on this computer is because anonymity makes the
communication so safe.  But when I communicate to you my soul when I
have no intention of actually meeting you, am I really being intimate?
To me, intimacy is being able to be who you are in a relationship.
Intimacy is then not possible in Cyberspace, because what I write is not
all of who I am.  I wonder if there are any statistics on whether any
on-line romances actually survive the whole body experience.  Certainly
the internet serves a valuable purpose for the exchange of information,
but, IMO, not as a replacement for human contact.
Barbara (and hopeless romantic)

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Tue Apr 23 10:32:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Netsex..etc etc etc
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 16:32:25 -0600

Dolores,
I read with interest your discourse on netsex and Jung's anima and
animus.  The way I understand it, everyone has an anima (female side) and
animus (male side).  In romantic relationship, the woman seeks out a man
that is like her animus, or male side, and vice versa.  The problem comes
in when she projects her animus onto a man, and doesn't actually see who
the man is.  I see this happening in romance on-line even easier than in
non-cyberspace.  We are even more free to project our fantasy into the
words of another person, to fit those words into what we want to hear.
And then when we actually meet the person, we find out that they are not
our animus projection after all, they are a different person.  Finding
our animus/anima in another is a way of making ourselves whole that
doesn't work.  Eventually, the love object is found out as not being our
opposite self, but another person entirely, and we fall out of love.  The
solution?  To be a whole, integrated person, not searching for the
anima/animus in a relationship.
Barbara

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Wed Apr 24 00:24:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: animus and anima
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 14:24:19 +0200

Marie,
I am not an expert on Jung by any means, but this thread engages me, too.

>>>
Dolores:
<<Why do you think that so many men wander in disguise as women, do you think
they are unconsciously trying to get in touch with their feminine sides?  Is
the Homosexuality..excess anima?  Lesbianism excess animus?>>
Marie:
Jung believed that some homosexuality was the result of an overidentification
with the animus or anima, but I think this would be restricted to those who
express an opposite gender identity in the world in some way.
<<<
Jung wasn't aware of the division of gender roles in homosexual pairs, which
then wasn't visible as it is today. There are macho gays oriented towards those
who, indeed, express an opposite gender identity. You'll rarely find two macho
gays paired, or two gays of the same femininity degree. In fulfilment of their
role, the latter often do crossdressing - so transvestitism has *nothing* to do
with sexual orientation - to amplify your statement on this issue.
Your being raised a boy by your father was *never* intended to touch your femi-
ninity, of which he was well aware; he seems to have believed in male values
as a means to survive - and you kept verifying his beliefs all the time - and it
has had its rewards. But beneath your "male value equipment" you've remained a
woman all the time, with all desires women are experiencing in life.
Let me end this paragraph by citing your moving *key* sentence:
>>>
       There is a pervasive sense of
*other* with a man that excites me in the depths of my being, that stirs my
blood in some primal way that has nothing to do with my mind at all....
<<<
A key to what?? Let me think further at my own peril:
I think you're right in putting emphasis on the word "other"...
You want to stress the "other"ness of a man  in certain contexts, to be sure.
A usual male would replace "man" by "woman", of course.
This may be indicative of the word "other" transcending the special beloved one.
And so there are experiences of over-consciousness of this key feeling/sentence,
in which "other" dominates, overradiates, subdues the words following it - aad
thus an obsession with re-thinking this key sentence over and over may trigger
change of libidinous and sexual orientation. (Female outfit can be "other" in
many ways to some men.)
This might also explain sudden  re-orientation during midlife crisis...

>>>
<<Bisexuality..perfect harmony?>>  Jung came to believe that wholeness meant
to achieve a state of selfhood and self-realization that required the
unconscious to become conscious--a fluid integration of ego, persona, shadow,
animus/anima.  A marriage or communion of male and female, rationality and
instinct, outer face and inner voice.  Would this "perfect harmony" lead to
bisexual expression?  I don't know.  I think not for me.
<<<
Jung didn't intend bisexual orientation. I tend to think more of equal availabi-
lity of rational thinking *and* the utmost range of feelings, that he had in
mind as an ideal for the mature personality.
Perhaps you, Marie, are approaching this ideaal closely ??
All the best,
Mila

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Wed Apr 24 00:58:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 13:58:51 +0100

Alyss writes:

>  I'd be interested in discussing metaphor

Let me throw out some ideas...

*

There is the difference between metaphor and simile to contend with.  We
tend, I think, to think of metaphors as similes with the word "like"
dropped out of them for greater effect: thus, "you're an angel" means less
than it says, it means "you're like an angel" or perhaps more formally "you
have angelic qualities"...

::  Descriptively, then, all metaphors are similes. When we are
::  writing ordinary discursive prose and use a metaphor, we are not
::  asserting that A is B; we are "really" saying that A is in some
::  respects comparable to B=8A

::          Northrop Frye, *Anatomy of Criticism*, p 123

... and it seldom occurs to us that "having angelic qualities" might in
truth involve a *participation* in the angelic order... or that a
sacramental view of life is by its nature not similaic but metaphoric:

::  The animal and vegetable worlds are identified with each other,
::  and with the divine and human worlds as well, in the Christian
::  doctrine of transubstantiation, in which the essential human
::  forms of the vegetable world, food and drink, the harvest and the
::  vintage, the bread and the wine, *are* the body and blood of the
::  Lamb who is also Man and God, and in whose body we exist as
::  in a city or temple. Here again the orthodox doctrine insists on
::  metaphor as against simile...

::          Frye, *Anatomy of Criticism*, p 143

*

There's an interesting connection between metaphor (meta-pherein, greek, to
carry across) and translation (trans-latus, latin, from trans-ferre, to
carry across): translation has the additional meaning, removal from earth
to heaven without death, which raises the issue of what we might call
"vertical" metaphors, ie metaphors which address one state of consciousness
by reference to another, for instance in illustration of the Hermetic
principle "as above, so below".

I have I think seen Octavio Paz talking about "ascending" and "descending"
metaphors, citing two haiku, one written by Kikaku, one of Basho's poetic
disciples:

::                            Dragonfly
::                            I remove the wings
::                            A pea pod!

and the other by Basho himself in response:

::                            A pea pod
::                            I place wings on it
::                            A dragonfly!

*

And another interesting link is that between metaphor and metamophosis, as
in the Russian poet Sinyavski's observation:

::  The poet is a failed magician=8Awho has substituted metaphor for
::  metamorphosis.

*

Alyss, does any of this tie in with psychotherapy, or the nature of the
dream world perhaps, as you encounter them?

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

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From naskalia@CADVISION.COM Wed Apr 24 02:32:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: the heart of the machine [was:Re: my apologies]
From: AK Naskali <naskalia@CADVISION.COM>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 09:32:32 -0500

Walter,

You wrote:  <<I know it is uncool but I love my win95 GUI!  I love ctrl-c
and ctrl-v for cutting and pasting from email to docs etc. I love having 4
or 5
apps open at once. >>

You are starting to sound like many of us Mac lovers!  Do you also give
loving looks and pats to your computer?  I must admit I do respond with a
smile when I see my Mac booting up with it's little smile icon.  Is that
putting a face on technology as well?  :-)

I just want to add how much I enjoy the postings in this list.  I'm doing a
linguistics course on online communication at the moment -- online.  I
finished reading Sherry Turkle's book LIFE ON THE SCREEN and recommend it
highly.  I'm still digesting it.  Last quarter I'd read a book by Richard
Kearney called THE WAKE OF IMAGINATION.  In it Kearney poses the challenge
of moving past Postmodern thought which Turkle seems to accept as the
current, almost desirable evolutionary stage.  She describes how computers
have moved from Romantic, to Modern, and  finally to Postmodern ways of
thinking.  I tend to agree with Kearney about the need to develop a new
imagination which he calls ethical-poetical imagination,  <<an empathic
imagination:  versatile, open-minded, prepared to dialogue with what is not
itself, with its other, to welcome the difference (dia-legein), to say even
to its sworn adversary - mon semblable, mon fr=E8re.>> [p. 392]

Kearney writes at the end of his book:

<<It is here and now, in the very darkness of that postmodern labyrinth
that we must begin again to listen to the story of imagination.  For it is
perhaps in its tale of the self relating to the other, that we will
discover a golden thread which leads beyond the labyrinth. >> [p. 396]

I can imagine that the internet with, for example, its chat areas and
mailing lists could become a powerful tool or arena to develop Kearney's
type of imagination and help heal the fragmentation, alienation and
superficiality of our postmodern society, OR it can lead to further
fragmentation, alienation and superficiality.  I'm definitely interested in
exploring ways to encourage the former and prevent the latter.  I probably
should explain more in order to give a clearer picture, a more complete
story about what I'm trying to express, especially since I don't imagine
that any of you have read both of these books.  However, I really am
strapped for time at this moment.

So please accept some of my thoughts as I take time from my online
coursework and ponder possible research/dissertation topics......

Thanks,
Arja-Kaisa

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Wed Apr 24 10:46:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: metaphor
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 18:46:12 -0400

Alyss:
<<I'd be interested in discussing metaphor

Walter:
<<Welcome and good to see your interest in this.  What are you thinking of
exactly?

<<We attempt to find a home in a place built of metaphor that shifts like a
sand storm --
<<that is its beauty -- it is an imaginal realm.  Each of us sees us through
their own <<dream.

Alyss - I add my welcome to Walter's, and also share your interest in
metaphor.  I, too, am new to this place, and metaphor does not begin to
express its dimensions.  Join us in the dance!

Marie
moonasylum@aol.com

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Wed Apr 24 10:46:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: animus and anima
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 18:46:15 -0400

Mila,

Thank you for weaving yourself into this thread.

<<Let me end this paragraph by citing your moving *key* sentence:>>
          <<<There is a pervasive sense of *other* with a man that excites me
in the depths of my being, that stirs my blood in some primal way that has
nothing to do with my mind at all....>>>

<<A key to what?  Let me think further at my own peril:
<<This may be indicative of the word "other" transcending the special beloved
one.  And
<<so there are experiences of over-consciousness of this key
feeling/sentence, in which
<<"other" dominates, overradiates, subdues the words following it - aad thus
an <<obsession with re-thinking this key sentence over and over may trigger
change of <<libidinous and sexual orientation.  (Female outfit can be "other"
in many ways to <<some men.)  This might also explain sudden re-orientation
during midlife crisis...

Mila - help me to understand what you mean here, please.

<<I tend to think more of equal availability of rational thinking *and* the
utmost range of
<<feelings, that he [Jung] had in mind as an ideal for the mature
personality.  Perhaps
<<you, Marie, are approaching this ideal closely?

This is certainly my goal; I don't know how close my approach is.  I have
struggled with duality in myself all my life (perhaps in part due to being
born June 5, which makes me a Gemini?): intellect/emotion, male/female;
body/soul....  I am learning to be whole, to listen to all the voices inside
me, to keep the door open to myself - and to those who would join with me,
like those of you in Payberia who respond to my words.  This is more a
process than a goal, I think.  I don't expect to come to the end of this
journey of self-discovery and integration any time in the foreseeable future!
 There are still many dark caverns within me to explore....

Marie
moonasylum@aol.com

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed Apr 24 10:58:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: the heart of the machine [was:Re: my apologies]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 22:58:21 GMT

Wilbur,

I loved reading the tale of your journey into the machine.  The
highlight was that at the heart of the machine you "met" the people
who designed it!

> >I  am curios as to what you mean by lonely?
>
> It's pretty dehumanizing to spend a lot of time staring at a computer
> screen. Whether it's a GUI or a CLI.  I've heard songs and other displays of
> humanity that curse the computer interface and the time that it takes us
> away from talking with others..

I am experiencing it as a communication  tool,  enabling me to meet
with people in a way that was not possible before, I felt a loneliness
when I used to make notes in my journal, talking back to the authors
of the books I was reading.   But I know what you mean it is not the
same as face to face -- we need plenty of that.

[snip]

> But in order to have my intellect reach that level, it's was and is quite
> painful (ie. lonely).  In order to master a new technology, I have to engage
> in total immersion and get to the point that I'm conversant with the ideas
> of the field.

I relate to the total immersion.  I have done it in my field,
psychotherapy which does not take me away from peple, and yet it does,
because I have this one fixed focus and role which I never cease to be
curious about and want to delve into  -  not all that many others do
-- that is what I like about being on this list -- there are very few
around me f2f who pursue these matters, and though there is plenty
here I would love a f2f augmentation.


> I've already had a bunch of people ask me if they will be able to put their
> own face on the computer.  ( I told them that I'm sure at some point I'll
> set up a service for $49.95 where I'll do that for them.. )
>
> ( Yes, I know this is very weird.. but's what's even more wierd is that I'm
> not kidding )
>
>,-------------------------------------
> Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
>,-------------------------------------


I am so intrigued by all this -- had a look at the web pages you
posted too -- interesting.  I am all for email though -- I will be
interested in the graphical 7 video revolution I sense around the
corner -- but _text_ is reveals another dimension.  Talking of ghosts
from the past -- every word is a ghost -- it carries its history,
mythology, depth.

*

I know it is uncool but I love my win95 GUI!  I love ctrl-c and ctrl-v
for cutting and pasting from email to docs etc. I love having 4 or 5
apps open at once.  I also add little things to it to improve it, that
is a type of programming my own interface.


Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed Apr 24 11:09:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Metaphor
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 23:09:42 GMT

Hi  Alyss,

>  I'd be interested in discussing metaphor

Welcome and good to see your interest in this.  What are you thinking
of exactly?

What comes to mind for me is that Cyberspace is a metaphor, for a
place that is build out of metaphor.

Even in the last month or so this list (about the most literal way it
can be described) has been called everything from a mall to a
spaceship.  We attempt to find a home in a place built of metaphor
that shifts like a sand storm -- that is its beauty -- it is an
imaginal realm.  Each of us sees us through their own dream.


walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed Apr 24 12:02:56 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Supervision
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 00:02:56 GMT

Alyss,

>  I'd be interested in discussing . . . supervision if anyone else
> is.

Great, discussing it is one thing and doing it is another.  What is
the place of this media for supervision?  I think it has great
potential.  In some ways the Group Psychotherapy list is just that, an
open list which looks at general clinical questions, useful.

Yet supervision goes much deeper, looking at the counter-transference
(the therapists own personal stuff as it relates to the client) that
would not be so good in an open list.  Client confidentiality being
one factor.

One on-topic question for this list is how one could set up ethical
effective supervision on the net for psychotherapy, and why!

Supervision of psychological work done on the net is another topic.
One of the amazing things about the work here is that it is also the
transcript of the work!  (almost, because there is something of the
passage of time that is not captured in the archives).  This list can
go quite some way towards looking at the general principles.  Even
more than that we can offer each other peer feedback in the list.  I
am in the formal role of facilitator and list owner, hence I am
prepared to experience the pleasure and the pain of getting critique
on my facilitation and "list-owner" roles, I expect all those who hope
to do psychological work in cyberspace can benefit from that.

Many have taken effective leadership roles here.  Mila is initiating
and facilitating a project within the list, I am very impressed with
the conception of it.  Charles has facilitated the HipBone games and
that is certainly a form of psychological work.  Robert acts as a host
which many have appreciated, including me.   Supervision can enhance
these roles !

There is definitely a place for supervision for list owners, there are
so many issues involved, ethics, structure of lists, effective
intervention, the place for self disclosure.  Much of it is still to
be learnt.

Supervision in the psych areas, btw, for those not familiar with it,
as you may be gathering, is a purposeful type of psychotherapy for the
therapists, with the essential focus on the welfare of the clients.
It often includes some structure for checking on the work, and
reporting to an agency, but it is primarily clinical and not
administrative.


Alyss, I have said a lot and it may be nothing like what you wanted to
raise, but thanks for the keyword, it got me going!  I hope there is
something here to enable you to go in the direction you want.


Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed Apr 24 12:12:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Community
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 00:12:50 GMT

Interesting article on Virtual Community:


http://www.well.com/user/hlr/texts/VCcivil.html


w

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed Apr 24 12:51:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Anima & animus & projections
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 18:51:01 -0600

Hi all,

        I decided to inject a few words of my own on this topic following a
little re-read of some Jung (Aion: Phenomenology of Self).  In his chapters
dealing with *shadow*, *anima*, and *animus*, Jung speaks of <<projections>>
and their effects upon a person that I feel have a significant relevence to
psychology on-line.

        As most of you, as trained professionals and students of Jung
already know (which I am learning through reading and re-reading for self
interest), the effect of projection is isolation.  Reality and relation
become illusory, one dreams of a reality, a world, that is impossible to
attain.  These projections lead to what Jung refers to as "auto-erotic"
conditions (or autistic conditions).  Jung points to the *anima* and
*animus* as the source of projections.

        Returning to the discussions begun by Dolores regarding the issue of
cyber.sex as a therapy model, and having taken the time to read most of the
articles found at the Web site posted by Walter, it is very striking to note
the parallels between Jung's thesis and the dialogue of romance and sex.
The authors of the dialogues create an illusion that draws them in so
intensely yet offers only a sterile and empty reward, an illusion that
heightens the isloation they are so vigorously trying to escape using the 'net.

        As a second note, I want to point out one of Jung's discussions
regarding the *anima* and *animus*.  With their meeting there is a positive
as well as a negative "possible" outcome.  The positive outcome is refered
to as falling in love (love at first sight -- love at first byte).  These
*love* relationships are typified as being emotional, full of "animosity"
(rooted in animus/anima - I just love the way language works!).

        My question now for those whose studies leave my sucking dust:  how
does this relate to our quest here in Psyberia?

Robert de Cyberie

(my attempt to be more than a host)

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From tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ Wed Apr 24 19:27:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Some of Tama's poetry.
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 19:27:38 +1200

Hello,
I am busy,  so I just though I would project some of my poetry into the
Space-so as to say I'm still here:

Cool Fool

It's so hard being cool
I feel like a real sentimental fool
constricted,  held tight in a straight jacket
I'm just an aquintance not a Lover
she gets drunk
flirts with funk
she wants you Kate
I try to see the amusing side
keep occuppied
feel happy
But it's false
should of gone up to you & been straight
Hey I like you
but I feel like retreating back into a shell
somewhere warm & dark
where no Siren can sing to me.

Gardens Meeting

Well that was a bit sad huh,
well I meet kate today,
we talked in the botanical gardens by a fountain
watching the sun go down,  laughing,  resting on each other
I did not retreat-said I wanted to stop stuffing around with each other & stop
Freinds contemplative but she could turn it on & off like a tap heart
controlled by brain
not me,  casual involvement nah but she did happen to mention that we could
have a drink sometime & have sex
 is'nt that strange
    I'll wait until the dust settles
        could be fun
              shalla la la
                    ha ha
                       !

Relisations of Water

Need water
fire is too hot to fickle
hot then smokey
take the air away & it's out
water
floating
swimming
tossed & turned on waves
rideing the high to shore
screaming in excitement
I wanna share the waters
cool
carm
tranqil
ripples
to see the side that's me

BED

Bed warm bed
hope me in you
to lie
breath
warm
secure
in
tender
sleep
waery
bliss
take into oblivion
unconscious
darkness
sometimes flitted in remembrance

Orange Numb

Forcefully throwing an orange to & fro
peeling citrus sprayed orange
skin roughly off
carefully peeling peices
juicy citrus meeting
cracking crunching pips on teeth

leaning staring in unreality
sharp defined
blurred in it's clarity
it's slightly fun being
numb

coffee is high
I'm not low but I'm not high
see me fly

at Hi you playing games
tangeling in tongues of rope
when stoned in bemusement
hes with you
attracted only by an underfineable strand

unreality mine
for I'm looking down on me
how funnily peculiar
have fun-Oooh
ludricrous
hope you have a good relationship
cause I gotta do some work

Heart Beated

My hearts not beating double time
maybe it will never beat faster
talking about the weather
kissing
I think
now I should be want
but suitcase-coffe table-Yes!!

Have I got a suprise for you
I wont know if you ask me
riddle me this
riddle me that
wicked games
I know not when
we shall join in fiery embrace
Future
too confused now
Just breath away

your gonna wade from the shallows
brave drowning in deeper waters
Time was an exuse
How convient
now the coins been flipped

were still connected
you think I'm final
ending only in conclusion
not seen for a while
try to explain messy unfinished stammering sentences that end in
I wish you were standing here
I'll see you
& hear from you
but I wont be you

strange
black comedy lifes weaved
I muse
fill me into life
I'll stand out like colour
if even I'm there
past present future meld me in exspectations
of you there...

(Kate choose the selection of poems fromabout 14)

I'm getting over Kate now,  were on a different levle,  were like perhaps
girlfriends although the strange thing is there is the idea of sleeping
together in the air.
GoodBye!!



                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Wed Apr 24 23:11:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: animus and anima
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 13:11:24 +0200

Marie,

Thank you for the warm welcome as well as for your open intense response.

Mind to see the full citate again for understanding how the word "other"
gains its preponderance for some ??
For easier following I'll throw in comments on single lines.

>>>
       There is a pervasive sense of
*other* with a man that excites me in the depths of my being, that stirs my
blood in some primal way that has nothing to do with my mind at all....
<<<
>>
A key to what?? Let me think further at my own peril:
I think you're right in putting emphasis on the word "other"...
<<
Here, I wanted to point that this emphasis is playing the main role in what
follows:
>>
You want to stress the "other"ness of a man  in certain contexts, to be sure.
A usual male would replace "man" by "woman", of course.
<<
Just imagine a loving man forming "his" sentence, putting the same emphasis
on the same "other". So far, so understandable.
I've left out the transition to the next line:
>>This may be indicative of the word "other" transcending the special beloved
>>one.
As the sentence we're talking of is formed in some language, it is amenable
to the most powerful operation of >rational thinking<, called "abstraction".
Thus the next lines are telling about "abstracting away the love object", seen
mostly in men valuing very abstract thinking, when they suffer from a severe
personal crisis:
>>>
And so there are experiences of over-consciousness of this key feeling/sentence,
in which "other" dominates, overradiates, subdues the words following it - aad
thus an obsession with re-thinking this key sentence over and over may trigger
change of libidinous and sexual orientation. (Female outfit can be "other" in
many ways to some men.)
<<<
Ie, they form - and feel - something like this
... pervasive sense of ***OTHER*** with a === that excites me in the depths of
    my being, ...
where it depends on their bio and other circumstances, how they interpret that
big "other" to replace the "===".
>>This might also explain sudden  re-orientation during midlife crisis...
I've seen some brilliant thinkers turn homosexual or fetish-transvestite during
their resp. crises.
Hope I could clarify my rather visionary stuff..

>>>
<<I tend to think more of equal availability of rational thinking *and* the
utmost range of
<<feelings, that he [Jung] had in mind as an ideal for the mature
personality.  Perhaps
<<you, Marie, are approaching this ideal closely?

This is certainly my goal; I don't know how close my approach is.  I have
struggled with duality in myself all my life (perhaps in part due to being
born June 5, which makes me a Gemini?): intellect/emotion, male/female;
body/soul....  I am learning to be whole, to listen to all the voices inside
me, to keep the door open to myself - and to those who would join with me,
like those of you in Payberia who respond to my words.  This is more a
process than a goal, I think.  I don't expect to come to the end of this
journey of self-discovery and integration any time in the foreseeable future!
 There are still many dark caverns within me to explore....
<<<
I feel with you, having done a lot of this self-discovery myself during a very
intense Rogers therapy. You're welcome to keep weaving on this thread,, form a
more specific one, or e-mail me in private.
In every case I promise: If you address me, be sure I'll respond!

Mila

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Thu Apr 25 04:54:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro - Marie Tondreau
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 10:54:36 -0600

Marie,
a kindred spirit!  I also have an interest in OD, and am finishing up an
MA in Counseling from the University of Northern Colorado.  I also have a
certificate in OD from National Training Labs.  In the fall I am starting
a doctoral program at Colorado State University in Human Resource
Development and Adult LifeSpan Learning....I hope to concentrate on some
OD there as well.  Where are you getting your MA?  Do you know your MBTI?
Barbara

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Thu Apr 25 06:10:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Jung in Psyberia
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 14:10:51 -0400

Hello, people!

I want to try to explore some of the thoughts this dialogue has stimulated in
me, in light of Steven's comments on role-playing: <<is it possible that the
ability to "try on" alternative personalities is more a matter of the
willingness to experiment with the various aspects of the self...to give
these aspects a face and push them out of the nest for public display and
interaction?>> and Robert's question: <<how does this relate to our quest
here in Psyberia?>>

Jung held individuation to be an innate developmental process in which the
various systems or structures of the personality become more differentiated,
more complex, capable of more subtle and intricate conscious expression, as a
result of experience and learning.  A personality system can only individuate
by becoming conscious: I think this is crucial to our discussion here.
 Deficiencies in experience do not allow optimal opportunity for development,
and our modern world discourages certain types of expression.  We are taught
to keep a tight lid on the shadow, to keep our animal instincts under
control.  Men in our society learn that the expression of qualities
associated with the anima (feminine) are unacceptable; women are penalized
for expressing masculine qualities (animus).  Jung believed that neglected
aspects of the personality remain unconscious, repressed, and therefore
retain their more primitive, undifferentiated characteristics.  Repressed
archetypes do not, however, subside into peaceful quiescence; they slip the
bonds of conscious control in extreme, often pathological ways.

Is this not an argument for the use of Cyberspace as a playground , a kind of
experimental laboratory where alternative personalities can find expression?
 Maybe -- if there is a conscious intention to explore other ways of being --
if the experience provides an opportunity for learning, and if it is
integrated into the way that the self organizes meaning.  I think this is
difficult to do by pretending to be someone or something else.  If I decide
to present myself as a man, I become subject to societal norms for what
defines a man, and I remove myself from the context of my own experience.  I
may learn a little about what it feels like to be a man -- how the responses
of others differ when I am in this role -- but what do I learn about myself?
 If, on the other hand, I choose to find out how it feels to express myself
(my authentic self) in a more expansive way, without concern for artificial
designations (such as the complex constellation of socially constructed
values that are evoked around the issue of gender and polarized into rigid
assumptions about what it means to be masculine or feminine), I can escape
the tyranny of labels and root my experience in a personally meaningful
context.  Wearing the "mask" of an alternative personality provides a
protective barrier that dilutes the impact of authentic encounter and makes
it easier to ignore or discount parts of the experience that I would rather
not see.  It didn't count.  It wasn't really me.

For Psyberia, now....  this consensual reality that transcends the linear
pattern of letters that sit neatly filed in a subdirectory on my computer....

Irvin Yalom said that one of the greatest values of group psychotherapy was
that the group becomes a social microcosm in which people recreate their
usual patterns of interaction with others, and where they can experiment with
alternate behaviors.  This is a place where we can see ourselves as others
see us, where we can become more conscious of the way we present ourselves to
the world, where we can expand our repetoire of interactional styles.  We
facilitate that process for each other, directly (through our written
responses) and indirectly (by who and what we respond to, and how).  If I am
not authentic here, if I attempt to create a persona that is not genuine, I
lose the opportunity of obtaining insight.

This does not preclude the expression of different aspects of the personality
-- nor does it invalidate a metaphorical presentation of self.  We are not
static or unidimensional beings; at any one time, I may speak as an
intellectual, a poet, a parent, a child....  There may be times when I speak
in the metaphorical language of dreams, allowing the phoenix to voice the
patterns of death and rebirth in my life, letting the orphan child
communicate my fear of being lost and alone in the world....  The conscious
expression of self opens me to greater self-understanding and
self-realization that is nurtured by the rich, sustaining ambience of this
"culture to grow in."

Robert wrote that <<it is very striking to note the parallels between Jung's
thesis and the dialogue of romance and sex.  The authors of the dialogues
create an illusion that draws them in so intensely yet offers only a sterile
and empty reward, an illusion that heightens the isolation they are so
vigorously trying to escape using the 'net.>>  I think he is right.  Illusion
is a powerful, glittering drug that would tell us we are being fed while we
slowly starve to death.  Our commitment to authenticity and our ability to
stand back and reflect on our experience mitigates the danger of being caught
up in illusion.  Psyberia is only as real as we are willing to be....

Marie
moonasylum@aol.com

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From spferris@FRONTIER.WILPATERSON.EDU Thu Apr 25 07:38:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Continuing conversations...
From: Pixy Ferris <spferris@FRONTIER.WILPATERSON.EDU>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 15:38:13 -0400

Hi all --Just wanted to aplogize for my absence from the discussions over
the past few days.  It'll be a couple more days till I can once again
participaet (big research conference, combined with end-of-the semester
teaching and exams make an unbelievably heavy load!).  I'm particularly
looking forward to resuming dialgue with Robert, Walter, Marie and Dr.
Klemm, and really regret not being able to do so sooner.  BTW Walter and
Robert - Gerald Phillips was a valued friend as well as my advisor, and
it was a pleasure to see that he is remembered and respected.

Cheers!

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Thu Apr 25 10:58:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Intro - Marie Tondreau
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 16:58:44 -0600

Robert,
I am curious about your marriage; has your mid-life crisis caused you to
question your union?
Barbara

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Thu Apr 25 14:31:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Mid-life crisis
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 20:31:26 -0600

Barbara,

        You ask:

>I am curious about your marriage; has your mid-life crisis caused you to
>question your union?

        I'm definitely willing to answer this question.  However, in
answering this question on-list, I wonder at its relevence to the list as a
whole.  I want to ask the list members, and Walter in particular, about the
inclusion of this potential *tangent* to listserv psychology.  I see this as
a potentially valuable psychological investigation that has *no* relation
the the 'net, unless the 'net is to be considered as a contributing factor
to mid-life crisis (such as the question: Does dialogue on the 'net enable
greater stress during the period of life which results in mid-life crisis?).

        Before I answer, I would like to look at the formatting of the
question. Excuse me Barbara for using *your* words to serve other purposes.
As I mentioned, and has been also mentioned by numerous others now,
_dialogue_ has a *sexual* aspect in addition to other aspects.  Not only do
dialogues have a *sexual* dance between those alternating between speaking
and listening, dialogues are open in terms of message intent and content.
For example:

        <<I am curious about your marriage>>

Does this statement mean:
        a) are you going to become available?
        b) where is your wife while you talk with us here?
        c) what can I expect from mid-life crisis from my partner?
        d) I want to learn about mid-life crisis.
        e) I'm interested -- if you are interested, then ...
How can we understand messages in this environment where there are no
context/background/visual clues to help us decode these (and more) potential
messages from the words that appear on the screen?  Enough of this and on
with a response.

        Barbara, to answer this requires a bit of context (smile Jurek).
Mid-life crisis -- biological, sociological, intellectual, and spiritual --
it's all there.  My body isn't nearly as efficient.  Greying hair (barely
noticeable), added weight (15 lbs surplus to my desired weight), need for
glasses (from none to bifocals in six months), heel spurs which put an end
to a promising road-running career and dreams of the Boston Marathon, a
slight loss of acuity of hearing, and unwanted hair (those extra strands
that appear on the ear really annoy me -- I'm quick to deny them their right
to life and remove them).

        Social changes?  The family to start with.  My oldest has left home
and married and is now expecting her first child.  My second child is
earning her living in a large town four hours distant from home.  My last is
still at home for two more years (until he finishes secondary school).  My
pattern of living a belief in life-long learning has moved me into a
shinking peer group.  Others feel the difference between and retreat -- the
fear of my intellect.  I'm the resident expert on matters of psychology,
philosophy, and the Internet (nobody is really interested in the historian,
the linguist, the poet).  Often I'm told of the Boeing 747's that fly over
their heads when I find an opening to add to the conversation (especially at
a gathering of teachers).

        There remains the spiritual changes.  Before marriage, I was a
free-spirit.  I roamed the roads with guitar and backpack.  I worked to meet
needs as they became pressing.  I wrote poetry, read philosophy.  I was a
city child who spent moments in appreciation of trees, hills, streams, and
the sky.  I loved the stars.  Then I met my anima -- love at first sight.
Biology and mystery blended well with the romantic notions of the universe
as I knew/know them.  Then began a period of change: pay attention well here
as I will digress to include a few ideas from Pirsig's _Lila_.

        Pirsig speaks of his time within the asylum.  His escape from the
asylum was to learn how to *role-play*.  He learned how to conform through
role-playing so that the pleasure of the married state would stay and
developed a *personality* which acted as husband, then teacher, then father.
The role-playing leads to an almost "permanent stage personality". Pirsig
then adds as he describes Phaedrus' situation:
        >It wasn't a happy solution, to always role-play with
        >people he had once been honest with.  It made it
        >impossible to ever really share anything with them.
        >Now he was more isolated ... It was this isolation
        >that indirectly broke up his family and led to this
        >present life. (p 379)
In many ways, this is the drama of most marriages.  At what point, if ever,
do the visions, dreams, and hopes of youth return to the fore?  And if they
return, if the role-playing did not bury the original actor, what result
upon the union that led to this many-act play?

        Now to return.  I have awakened from the drugged (much of it
blissful) state of role-playing only to discover the poet and philosopher
who cling to a hope of re-emergence into the light of consciousness.  Their
rebirth is a threat to the status quo, to the equilibrium of a union (who is
this stranger I'm married to?).  Yes, Barbara, my mid-life crisis has caused
us both to question these bonds of marriage.  I don't think any mid-life
crisis can escape a complete re-evaluation of every atom of one's existence.
Choices must be made (though not hasty, not without dialogue).  With the
choices there are losses as well as gains.  What to gain and what to lose?
Should I gain my soul at the cost of my love for a beautiful woman?  Should
I gain a renewed bonding at the expense of much that is the "core" of my being?

        Whew! That wasn't easy.  I tend to verbalize a bit much at times.  I
hope that my approach to this answer gave it some relevance to the list as a
whole and the nature and goals of our dialogue here on PSYBER-L.  Please
feel free to speak to me here (or off-line if it is more comfortable for
you).  Now where?

Robert de Cyberie

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Thu Apr 25 15:01:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:01:46 -0400

>Robert wrote that <<it is very striking to note the parallels between Jung's
>thesis and the dialogue of romance and sex.  The authors of the dialogues
>create an illusion that draws them in so intensely yet offers only a sterile
>and empty reward, an illusion that heightens the isolation they are so
>vigorously trying to escape using the 'net.>>  I think he is right.  Illusion
>is a powerful, glittering drug that would tell us we are being fed while we
>slowly starve to death.

>Our commitment to authenticity and our ability to stand back and reflect on
our >experience mitigates the danger of being caught up in illusion.
Psyberia is >only as real as we are willing to be....

I would like to add a bit of descriptive tempering to this description.  I
believe that there is are two components of this addiction.. There is the
psycho-motor addiction that can be see with kids playing video games over
and over again.. and there is the satisfaction of a desire after great effort.

The psycho-motor addiction is something that I'm aware of, but haven't spent
a lot of time trying to come to understand, but when video games first came
out, I was quite hooked..

The second part, much more insidious, is where an individual learns to put
some part of their needs aside, then then finds a way to satisfy those
needs, but at a great cost.  This syndrome is what I precieve in ACOA's and
"High Performers" in that they have become accustomed to putting off their
needs for the eventual satisfaction.  What sometimes happens however is that
the quest for need becomes habitual, and then becomes a need in and of
itself.  Witness the millionaires that work themselves to death and get into
more and more risky business situations, because that is all that they know
how to do, to strive, to risk, despite their having achieved financial
independence, or the runner that runs through injury in order to get the
runners high..

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Thu Apr 25 15:41:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:41:12 -0400

If anyone wants to post anonymously, there are several anonymous remailers
that I'm aware of that will let you do it.  If there is enough interest,
I'll go get the address, (I think that it's info@anon.penet.fi)..

I fell into an anonymous remailer answering a message on a usenet group, and
I've since developed an alias..

There are times when it might come in handy, but to date, I find that I'm
really not that interested in rocking the world... (at least not just yet..)

But on the other hand, there are several ethical delemna's (sp?) that I'd
like to take by the horns and see where the ride takes me..

One involves a bit if colusion between two corporate giants to squash
information about a bug in a chip.. a bug that I've signed a non-disclousure
about..

Another involves the misuse of laws intended to bring technology here to the
US but were instead used as a way to avoid corporate taxes on both sides of
the Atlantic.. So if I ever get the urge to tilt at windmills.. it may be
interesting..

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Thu Apr 25 21:48:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Walter's "acting out" list idea
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:48:31 +0200

Walter, in response to Marie you wrote:
>>>
I have an idea to set up a list which I think may meet the standards
you propose.  A list where one can post anonymously, but where
membership is public.  Rather like a masked ball.  This could be
easily done.  One could have several characters interacting, one could
enter the space as Sigmond Freud, or as a blade of grass.

The meta discussion of what occurred _there_ could happen here, on
Psyber-L.

Thus there is an opportunity for learning and organising meaning.
There is no duplicity or betrayal, as from the outset everyone knows
the score.
<<<
Thank you, Walter, for sharing this grand idea.
PSYBER-L being the meta discussion list, I may share some previous experiences
with a list FNORD-L.
First of all, I want to quibble about some Listserv feature in general:
Every listserv requires the full name of a new subscriber, which is under-
standable. I furnished my name without my Dr degree in order not to deter
potential responders. Nonetheless, Listservs don't make use of it in the
heading of msgs they deliver; in my case, they always give in quotes the
UNIX-format entry of my "password file".
On other lists, the quotes were even misread as me pretending to have a dr.
Are there listserv experts to alter this or to give me the option to insert
my subber's name entry instead.
This having told, I'd like to share some of my exps with FNORD-L:

It's like a masked ball, Rio-Carnival variety, in which the aggresive forms of
communication - of all but the more subtle, sophisticated sorts - prevail.
They tried to involve me in an overt subjugation game, tried me to provoke
by flames of the anal sort and the like.
I myself responded with more bizarre than overtly aggressive fantasies, told in
a soft "belle indifference" tone signing as
"Your Iron Bear (never in need to raise his voice) - entering as a male charac-
ter then.
Touched to respect the utter vulnerability of all the others onstage, I left -
it also bored to have no equal to duel with.
This was my exp report of a playground _in Marie's terms- for aggressive beha-
viour.
As you proposed, I submit it for meta discussion here.
Mila

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From judithb@sbc1.com Fri Apr 26 00:37:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:37:20 GMT

<Walter you write
<
Your qualifications here are important.

I have an idea to set up a list which I think may meet the standards
you propose.  A list where one can post anonymously, but where
membership is public.  Rather like a masked ball.  This could be
easily done.  One could have several characters interacting, one could
enter the space as Sigmond Freud, or as a blade of grass.

The meta discussion of what occurred _there_ could happen here, on
Psyber-L.

Thus there is an opportunity for learning and organising meaning.
There is no duplicity or betrayal, as from the outset everyone knows
the score.

I'd like to discuss this idea.  I have participated in something like
this, and more discussion would be useful, and there might be a point
where we would need to _do_ it before we really knew.



Walter>

The point you make about duplicity or betrayal speaks in a real way to a
recent experience. For me it becomes a matter of the expectationbelief system
of the participants in the engagement. The duplicity or betrayal seems to
come out of the lack of conscious agreement of the parties to the *rules* of
engagement. As I have been listening with this new way of framing called
*Jung* and myth and conscious and unconsciousness within this Jung framing
(and this is new for me because I have lived a very different framing), it
seems to me the element of conscious *truthfulness* or one might call it
authenticity and integrity that one brings to the moment is an important
dynamic has everything to do with the alignment of the belief systems, at
least it seems so in my recent experience. So the outcome of the
participation of the participants with very different belief systems and life
purpose framings leads into feelings of duplicity or betrayal when in fact if
there had been conscious agreement around the underlying intention of the
engagement the outcome would be very different.

If we agree to the rules of engagement, and in the context of my
understanding of the dialogue here, we agree that we come into engagement and
often the purpose is to amp the shadow for each other so that we have an
opportunity for integration, then a defined space for *playing* roles can be
useful. In a way I live my life with this assumption, that we are playing
this whether we openly define life in this way, that there is inner level
cooperation, that in fact this is what we are doing here with and for each
other and in my belief system the universe is feeding back *yes* to whatever
intention we are holding conscious and unconsciously. So IMO we are all here
to grow soul and are cooperating to do this. If the parties who are engaged
don't agree on this assumption, then duplicity and betrayal will be the
outcome, instead of learning.

So Walter I think your experiment would be interesting to engage in from the
aspect of open agreement to the *rules* then ISTM that paradoxically as
people play roles there would be more *authenticity*.

As as aside or the point here, I find the element of synchronicity which
occurs in cyberspace the reason for my continued engagement. As I become more
familiar with the language system of Jung and the meanings begin to emerge
for me as a framing, then the opportunity for learning through a different
system opens and the data emerges which then feeds my experience. The forum
here then is bringing a different way of seeing to me which then  informs my
experience. Thus a line of a poem, or a dialogue held in juxtaposition to my
daily experience, opens up revelations which enrich my life.

gratefully,
Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
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judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Fri Apr 26 00:40:56 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Tilting at windmills
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:40:56 GMT

Wilbur
< So if I ever get the urge to tilt at windmills.. it may be
interesting..

Wilbur>

Tilt away :-). It is my experience that given whatever one's sense of justice
is, then one decides how one wants to engage in injustice. It then seems to
be a question of action inaction and how that is just and unjust.

Judith
--
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                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Fri Apr 26 00:50:57 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:50:57 GMT

Walter you wrote in response to Robert
<I'd add this: Your sharing is giving you an authenticity here, a
stronger virtual reality.  Just how useful that is for your crisis I
am not sure!  You warned me recently of the dangers . . . I doubt it
is dangerous.  I would certainly encourage others to share fully with
you, I think our gathering here has managed to do reasonably well when
people have shared. I hope people feel free enough to come back and
reflect on the process whatever it was.

[snip, the story of the crisis]

>         Whew! That wasn't easy.  I tend to verbalize a bit much at times.

I found it good to listen to you.  I had a mid life crisis and
marriage end when I was 36.  I am now 51, I am glad it then!

>  Now where?

Lets listen  . . .


Walter>

The element of risk in cyberspace comes to mind. Robert in my way of being
you risked by answering the question to you (forgive my stumbling getting to
know who says what here). There is a danger in a real sense which I have
experienced in another venue, though I am assuming the meaning of danger
here. This is around what can be an inadvertant (though I don't believe in
inadvertant:-) comment which comes at one unawares. With this mind to mind
and in my experience more intense engagement on-line very well intentioned
people can get their shadow amped and not see it and throw a dart directly
into an unguarded mindheart. I say this because I've *inadvertantly* done
this to my regret. The danger is that for instance here we all agree and
begin to experience a trust and begin to open and mind darts have the
potential to fly.

PS:Robert, your posting has informed your poetry for me. I'll go back and
reread.

Attending,
Judith

--
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                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
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                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From garson@HIWAAY.NET Fri Apr 26 02:32:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis
From: Regina Garson <garson@HIWAAY.NET>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 09:32:08 -0500

Hi,
I guess some rambling thoughts...

Since I am just coming through, surviving a mid-life crisis, I look at the
whole time as perhaps more than any other in my life I learned to connect on
a human and emotional level. Maybe the teen years would be the only other
time when I think the emotions were so overwhelming. What does this have to
do with the net, the connectedness if you allow it. Perhaps the net is just
another avenue of the ever growing connectedness I sought out as I made the
changes of this time in life. With this time in life there are looks back as
friends pass away, and others become resigned to their lives, not because
they are happy, but because somehow they have lost touch with that part of
them self that seeks for ever new horizons.  As I wrestle with that barely
noticable gray hair, and pursue studies, (with  mostly younger students) I
realize the dreams are the most important thing that grew out of the crisis.
Our whole family is involved to some degree with the net, and we all have
different ideas of this cyber land.

As far as the net replacing face to face relationships, no matter how
cerebral, I do not think any words could ever replace how it feels to be
close to my husband.  Our marriage did survive the mid-life crisis, and as I
learned to communicate and open up to him, he also did to me. I also learned
to communicate with others. I don't think I have felt so romantic or open to
expression since I was in my younger dating years. The net has inhanced our
relationship, and not just because it is a shared interest.

I participate in a poetry list, and there have at times been romantic and
sensual poetic posts.  As first I was a little taken back.  Then I decided I
too would enjoy being poetically romantic.  When I took the time to put my
feelings about him in words, I couldn't wait to be with him again.  I think
net communications like those in face to face will affect your life to the
extent that you allow, want, or even seek it.

If you get on with a group where everyone is having fantasy sex, flirting
with strangers you may very well endanger your relationship, the same as you
would if went to a singles bar looking for meaningful conversation. If an
individual feels the need for that connectedness with someone outside their
relationship, perhaps they should not blame it on the net, any more than you
could blame a singles bar for a fling. There does need to be some
selectiveness. When you walk down a busy street, you do not go in every
store, just because it is there. If an individual becomes involved in cyber
relationships of what ever sort, perhaps there was a need, whether admitted
or not.

In my net participation we write romantic snippets about the ones we love.
Sharing, and taking the time to put these feelings into words has most
definately enhanced my real life relationship. If we instead wrote romantic
snippets about each other, there would be a different mesh of feelings
involving the posts.

half waking slumber
faint smell of his musk -
move close reaching touch

Regina Garson
Magic Stream
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~garson/

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 26 02:55:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: my apologies
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:55:51 -0600

Hi,
have you read anything about the nature of addictions?  It sounds like
you have a personality that needs to be addicted to something, first pot
then the computer.  Current research shows that people with a tendency to
be addicted to substances or activities do it because it makes them feel
better.  In other words, without the addiction, one feels "bad" and when
doing the activity, one feels "good".  It's basically self-medicating,
whether it's a substance like pot or an activity like computing.  The
only problem is when the activity or substance has a downside.  The
downside of pot is hotly debated; the downside of computing is that you
don't have enough time/energy/motivation to develop human contact.  The
other downside of addicitive behavior is that the original problem of
feeling "bad" is never dealt with; it's like taking aspirin to mask the
pain but not dealing with what caused the pain in the first place.  As
long as you have your computer, you don't need to deal with whatever made
you feel "bad" in the first place.
Barbara (and hoping this doesn't sound judgmental, I don't intend for it
to be)

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 26 02:57:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: animus and anima
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 08:57:55 -0600

Marie,
thanks for your reply to Dolores; I also explained anima/animus to her,
but you did a far superior job.
Barbara

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri Apr 26 03:01:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:01:00 GMT

Marie,

I enjoyed your thoughtful post.  You say:

>  Deficiencies in experience do not allow optimal opportunity for development,
> and our modern world discourages certain types of expression.  We are taught
> to keep a tight lid on the shadow, to keep our animal instincts under
> control.  Men in our society learn that the expression of qualities
> associated with the anima (feminine) are unacceptable; women are penalized
> for expressing masculine qualities (animus).  Jung believed that neglected
> aspects of the personality remain unconscious, repressed, and therefore
> retain their more primitive, undifferentiated characteristics.  Repressed
> archetypes do not, however, subside into peaceful quiescence; they slip the
> bonds of conscious control in extreme, often pathological ways.

This indeed does sound like an argument for the use of anonymity and
flexibility of identity in cyberspace to be used to become conscious
of our repressed selves.

However you go on to make a useful point:

> Is this not an argument for the use of Cyberspace as a playground , a kind of
> experimental laboratory where alternative personalities can find expression?
>  Maybe -- if there is a conscious intention to explore other ways of being --
> if the experience provides an opportunity for learning, and if it is
> integrated into the way that the self organizes meaning.  I think this is
> difficult to do by pretending to be someone or something else.

Your qualifications here are important.

I have an idea to set up a list which I think may meet the standards
you propose.  A list where one can post anonymously, but where
membership is public.  Rather like a masked ball.  This could be
easily done.  One could have several characters interacting, one could
enter the space as Sigmond Freud, or as a blade of grass.

The meta discussion of what occurred _there_ could happen here, on
Psyber-L.

Thus there is an opportunity for learning and organising meaning.
There is no duplicity or betrayal, as from the outset everyone knows
the score.

I'd like to discuss this idea.  I have participated in something like
this, and more discussion would be useful, and there might be a point
where we would need to _do_ it before we really knew.



Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri Apr 26 03:58:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:58:42 GMT

Robert,

Thanks for your honest post, and your trust in the people here and the
medium.

> I want to ask the list members, and Walter in particular, about the
> inclusion of this potential *tangent* to listserv psychology.

Three points:

As we share our personal lives here we are using the medium in a
psychological way.  We are the objects of our own research.  If you
say at the end of this discussion what your experience of it was --
and if others share theirs then we are learning about this medium.
Being here consciously.  I am pleased that this list is doing this
work, and not quoting the research _about_ the net.  (That is OK too
of course), but I'd be more wary of tangents in that direction, away
from our experiential learning.  There is an excellent list called
Research that would cover that well.

Secondly, the topic here is not well summed up in 'listserv
psychology'.  Experiential learning about the psyche in cyberspace,
gives the same area of discussion a whole different slant, it makes
your post more central.

Third, in the description of the list it states

:: Forming relationships of a collegial nature around our
:: psychological, net interests is an important part of the work.

We would do well to share our crisis in some way if we are to do that.
I hope this list is a suitable venue for you and all of us to do that.


I'd add this: Your sharing is giving you an authenticity here, a
stronger virtual reality.  Just how useful that is for your crisis I
am not sure!  You warned me recently of the dangers . . . I doubt it
is dangerous.  I would certainly encourage others to share fully with
you, I think our gathering here has managed to do reasonably well when
people have shared. I hope people feel free enough to come back and
reflect on the process whatever it was.

[snip, the story of the crisis]

>         Whew! That wasn't easy.  I tend to verbalize a bit much at times.

I found it good to listen to you.  I had a mid life crisis and
marriage end when I was 36.  I am now 51, I am glad it then!

>  Now where?

Lets listen  . . .


Walter

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 26 04:02:53 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever..
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 10:02:53 -0600

Walter,
How neat that you live in Christchurch!  Do you happen to know Diane
Madgin or her husband Bill (don't remember his last name, but he is a
Sociology prof at the univerisity.) They are the friends we visited a
year ago.
Barbara (Boulder, CO)

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 26 04:19:14 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: New girl in psyberspace
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 10:19:14 -0600

Alyss,
I have also had several bouts with depression, not really in mid-life but
I have had a mid-life crisis since my twenties!  Welcome back to the
interactive world!
Barbara

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Fri Apr 26 05:49:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tilting at windmills
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:49:59 -0400

At 12:40 PM 4/25/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Wilbur
>< So if I ever get the urge to tilt at windmills.. it may be
>interesting..
>
>Wilbur>
>
>Tilt away :-). It is my experience that given whatever one's sense of justice
>is, then one decides how one wants to engage in injustice. It then seems to
>be a question of action inaction and how that is just and unjust.

Maybe, but as I approach that middle of life I'm feeling a little slip of my
belief that I can play by the rules and still make some sort of difference
in the world...  My youthful belief in the ethics of others is quietly
draining away from me.  I don't know that I'll loose my very high ethical
standards, but it sure is disheartening when I see the that the Presidents
and other Officers of major companies aren't quite as ethical as I had
wished.. (actually, not as ethical as I would even require to respect them..)

I was raised on the idea of compentancy being the route to the good life.. I
came to understand that lifelong learning would eventually bring the crux of
the meaning of life to me in such a way that I would be able to create a
place where I was respected for my worth..  But being job-abolished in a
major Insurance company specifically because I WAS competant enough to see
how millions of dollars were being wasted sure makes for a lot of rethinking
of the idea of ethics and hard work getting me ahead..

In other words, there is an old line "It the lie that brings us together",
but being truthful to a fault, how to I bring people together without being
able to lie?  My current answer is to start a business from scratch, create
new technology, and then build a corporate culture that doesn't have the
same problems as the ones that I've seen (and I've seen quite a few).  But I
have to wonder about those that don't have the abilities that I've
sacrificed my life to build.  I've also wondered about just how my abilities
have made me percieve the lack of ethics in situations..  Is it the
abililities that I have that make me see the lack of ethics in a situation,
or is it the lack of ability that makes the other's fail to see it, and
continue to work in that environment?  Is it the lack of those same
abilities that makes the leaders of the corporate cultures fail to see the
ethical dilemas?  Does it in turn seem that I'm finding unethical behaviour
where there is none?  But then the question turns to why are the people at
the top of the organization there if they don't have the abilities that I
do?  How can they manage something that they don't understand?  Does that
mean that I belong in their position?  It seems that it's not what you know
but who you know that is the means to getting to the top of an organization.
And as a very competant person, I can develop the relationships at a whim,
but what if that means being unethical?  Having to sacrifice my ethics in
order to maintain relationships with those at the top of the food chain?

I don't wish to sacrifice my belief in ethics and justice in order to get
ahead, since I feel that it's my ethics and judgement that makes me someone
that deserves to get ahead..  quite a problem.  Care to help me find some
answers?

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From garson@HIWAAY.NET Fri Apr 26 06:39:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tilting at windmills
From: Regina Garson <garson@HIWAAY.NET>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:39:11 -0500

Previous postings,
>At 12:40 PM 4/25/96 GMT, you wrote:
>>Wilbur
>>< So if I ever get the urge to tilt at windmills.. it may be
>>interesting..
>>
>>Wilbur>
>>
>>Tilt away :-). It is my experience that given whatever one's sense of justice
>>is, then one decides how one wants to engage in injustice. It then seems to
>>be a question of action inaction and how that is just and unjust.
>
>Maybe, but as I approach that middle of life I'm feeling a little slip of my
>belief that I can play by the rules and still make some sort of difference
>in the world...  My youthful belief in the ethics of others is quietly
>draining away from me.  I don't know that I'll loose my very high ethical
>standards, but it sure is disheartening when I see...

Wilbur,
On this I am sorry to say I agree with you. The older I get the more I agree
with you. When I was still quite youthful and attending one of my first
sales meetings, we were given instructions and I had the audasity to ask if
they were legal.  I thought there was some mistake. I got a very fast elbow
in my side, and no answer from the speaker.  It seems the president of the
company was a non-practicing lawyer, who used his legal knowledge to push
the edge and thus maximize his profits. It was all legal.  At the time I
thought he was quite an unusual man, and was awed by his power. He made and
lost millions like some play checkers.  I don't think he had any feelings as
to what he was doing, and felt if he could make it legal, he could do it.
And he did. I didn't stay long with that company. Instead I went on to other
jobs, only to find more and more people who  did the same thing, only in
different ways. Of relevance to this discussion is how the various media
were used in promoting all these schemes. Most of them could not have done
what they were doing without technology and money, i.e. television, radio,
telephone.

Now in cyber land, I too in mid-life am pursuing a kinder, gentler
profession. On the net, there are also many avenues of abuse, but at least
the playing ground has been equaled. In this land, with a minimal
investment, and a lot of hard work, the little guys can compete. It is mind
boggling how, when the opportunity is there, how very many people are on the
net doing some sort of something, or spreading some message that will in
some way help others. In this leveled playing field, it would be interesting
to know the numbers, as to how many sites that help compare in number to how
many are the business nightmares we abhor. If big business is unnaturally
tilted with the unfeeling, my experiences with the net have been that it is
tilted with the feeling. What is even more wonderful is that the chances are
much more equal.

Sign me,
"Already whacking at those windmills"
Regina Garson
Magic Stream
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~garson/

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 26 07:18:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: animus and anima
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:18:13 -0600

Marie,
I'm a Gemini too, which I think helps me deal with my T husband, who
happens to be a Sagittarian.
Barbara

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Fri Apr 26 07:19:48 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: metaphor
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:19:48 -0600

Marie,
I didn't mention, but the salient point is that Gemini is a "masculine"
sign, which modifies my Feeling preference on the Myers-Briggs, and my
husband is a Sagittarian, which is a "feminine" sign, which modifies his
Thinking preference on the MBTI.  Sorry, I also subscribe to a "type"
list and got confused.
Barbara

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Fri Apr 26 07:49:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: my apologies
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:49:32 -0400

At 08:55 AM 4/25/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi,
>have you read anything about the nature of addictions?

Anything?  At one time I was addicted to reading about addictions!

>It sounds like you have a personality that needs to be addicted to
something, >first pot then the computer.

They also say that manic behaviour accompanies Genius!

>Current research shows that people with a tendency to be addicted to
>substances or activities do it because it makes them feel
>better.

Duh!

>In other words, without the addiction, one feels "bad" and when
>doing the activity, one feels "good".  It's basically self-medicating,
>whether it's a substance like pot or an activity like computing.

We all have these tendencies, some more than others.. if we didn't we'd
never do anything other than eat and sleep.  Some have them more than
others, and some have even learned to ride them as a means to an end..  At
lot has to do with the basic belief structure of the individual, their
tolerance to lack of immediate gradification, or the lack of that tolerance,
how high the goals are they they attempt to achieve, and perhaps a bit of
involvement from the Pancreous (sp?)

>The only problem is when the activity or substance has a downside.  The
>downside of pot is hotly debated; the downside of computing is that you
>don't have enough time/energy/motivation to develop human contact.  The
>other downside of addicitive behavior is that the original problem of
>feeling "bad" is never dealt with; it's like taking aspirin to mask the
>pain but not dealing with what caused the pain in the first place.

Wasn't that what I said?  So we are in agreement!

>As long as you have your computer, you don't need to deal with whatever made
>you feel "bad" in the first place.

And suppose that there is no way to deal with whatever made you feel bad in
the first place?  Believe it or not, there are some things in life, some
wounds from childhood, that can never be healed..

>Barbara (and hoping this doesn't sound judgmental, I don't intend for it
>to be)

OK, for the same of not being angry at having someone tell me back what I
just said about addition, I'll assume that you weren't being judgemental..
I'll also assume that you're not going to be judgemental about what I'm
about to say.. (type)

As I see it, there are several factors that bring me to the
obessive/compusive behaviour patterns that I have, (and they are mine, and
NO you can't take them away from me!)



*** warning ***
As a warning, I cried when I wrote some of this.  There are some hideous
things described in the rest of this message.  But it's some of the reality
of my parents lives that I've been able to piece together.  Don't read on if
you aren't rather thick skinned..
*** warning ***


They can be categorized as my parents teachings and my biology.

On my parents teachings, they only taught me what they believed to be true,
and they came to these beliefs as a result of their life experiences..

My father grew up in Baltimore, Maryland, in a family where his mother told
him that because he was male that he would never amount to anything.  (I
witnessed her telling him this myself when I was 17).  When he started
acting up in school in 2nd grade, since he was failing tests, they sent him
off for intelligence tests, and he came back as having an IQ too high to
accuratly measure.  The problem that he was experiencing was that he was
being ignored at home, and bored at school, and needed something to channel
his hungry mind.  Instead he was subjected to a teacher that bored him and
didn't like him.  He was stuck with this same teacher year after year, and
each year that he graduated, she graduated right along with him to the next
grade.  So he had figured out that if he failed, that at least he wouldn't
have the same teacher the next year.  His parents that couldn't be bothered
with a "problem child".  In order to solve the problem, his mother sent him
off to Massanuttin Military academy (to teach him some discipline, no doubt,
he was 7 years old.)  On the first thanksgiving that came, he prepared to go
home to be with his family, like all of the other kids, and was told that he
wasn't welcome in his own home.  He excelled in the Military Academy, (we
won't go into the abuse that exists in military schools here..  That would
take a novel)  His older sister had her way paid through college, while he
couldn't even borrow the money from his parents to go to college.  (They
were quite wealthy, my grandfather bought the bell for the local methodist
church).  So he eventually learned that the only thing that he could have
that no one could take away from him was the skills that he had.  (lots of
family history about skills with technology deleted..)  My father never saw
home life, and learned to live inside a military academy.  He ended up
enlisted in the military, and earned several awards as the first person to
qualify with various types of technology in the military.  He flew in the
Korean War, and he used to fly the East/West line "Keeping the world safe
from Communism" where he was the electronics weapons officer on the plane.
His security clearance was so high that he was unable to answer questions
from a two star general since the general didn't have the proper clearance.
He was also the nuclear weapons officer on the B52's that he used to fly in.
(he would arm the nuclear warheads in the event of a nuclear mission, and
they stood with standing orders that if they lost radio contact with the
Strategic Air Command, they would drop their weapons on the target in Russia
that was specified..)  My father was SERIOUS military warrior.

My mother's family owned the local Bar/Restruant/Hotel in a small town in
Luxembourg, and they were quite prosperous, even had a maid.  My grandfather
on my mothers side was a master Rod Iron worker, one of only 4 in the
country, ran his farm, complete with pigs etc, the hotel, the bar, and also
worked a full 8 hour day at the local brewery maintaining the equipment.
When the second world war started, the Nazi's eventually took everything
away from my mother's family, and my mother witnessed several traumatic
things..  The Nazi's took everything away from her and her family.  My
mother had pet ducks, which were killed and she was forced to serve as
dinner to Nazi soldiers.  The taking away of her father and later news that
he was dead.  Then the cold winter day, (the coldest in that area for 80
years) when the Nazi's called the entire town out for a meeting.  They lined
up the entire town, half on one side of the street, the other half on the
other side of the street.  They then shot everyone on one side of that
street.  Then what was left of the town was put into a forced march to a
concentration camp.  I'm not sure, be I believe that my mother was raped
when she was at the concentration camp.  (she was 9 at the time..)  Her
mother made some sort of deal with the camp commandant, and she was allowed
to escape in a truck full of Christmas candy for the German soldiers..  (It
was marzipan..)  The truck convoy was forced off the road by an American air
attack, and she was forced to walk back to her village, through Nazi
Germany.  When they got to the village, everyone met her with cries of "We
thought you were dead!".  Their home was occupied by Nazi's, and they needed
a place to stay.  No one had room, or food, so they ended up hiding in the
Church.  Some German officers pointed out that the church was a bad place to
hide, since when the American bombers would bomb the town, they would target
the biggest structure in the town, which was the church.  She and her mother
ended up hiding in a train tunnel while the Allied and German forces fought
out what was later to become known as a "Battle of the Bulge".  So my mother
spent a month in a train tunnel, without food, and only melted snow for
water, while the war went on outside the tunnel.  They were hiding in the
little indentations in the walls of the train tunnel, to avoid the bullets
that sometimes flew into the tunnel.  On occasion a solder from the Allies
or the Germans would come into the tunnel.  Look at them with his machine
gun, and then leave.

In the next indentation in the tunnel wall, a man had a broken shoulder
which had become gangrenous.  He died from that about a week later, with my
mother listening to his moans.  The gangrene continued, and my mother slowly
starved with the smell of his rotting body.  (as an interesting note, the
muscles in my mother's own shoulder stopped growing when she was in high
school, the same shoulder that the man had broken, you can see it when she
tells the story, she ended up needing surgery)  At the end of a month of
waiting for the Allies to push past the tunnel, my grandmother finally
realized that if they stayed in the tunnel that they would die, and she and
my mother made a dash to the America command post.  When they got there, the
American's assumed that my mother and grandmother were Nazi's.  When this
finally got sorted out, my mother and grandmother when to stay with some
relatives where the war was over.  When they got there, they were told that
they couldn't stay, since there wasn't enough food.  So they went to other
relatives, far from the war.  A week later, my mother wanted to start back
into regular life, to put the horrors behind her.  She went to the school
master and was told that since she hadn't started the school year with the
other students, she wouldn't allowed to go to school until next year.  So my
mother got to spend the next few months with no schooling, no activities to
divert her rememberance of the hell that she had been through.  She learned
that education was her responsibility after that, and also that she couldn't
trust the educational establishment to teach her own child.

My mother grew into a beautiful blonde, (Sharon Stone has nothing on my
mother, except maybe 40 years..).  The only thing that she really hated out
of the war was the American Bombers.. (B52's)

My father was a tail gunner in a B52 that flew over Ettelbruck during a 15
year anniversary celebration, (Ettelbruck is where the Patton Monument is).
My father thought that he would go there to see the monument.  He had made a
deal with his mother that if he saved up half of the money for an Austin
Healey sports car, that she would loan him the rest.  On an enlisted man's
salary, he managed to save half of the money.  When he called his mother for
the other half of the money, she denied ever making that deal with him.  My
father spent decided that no matter what the cost, he was going to save the
rest of the money for the car.  For the next year, he stayed in the
barracks, and read books from the library.  He read Voltaire, he read
philosophy, he read everything.  All the while hearing stories about this
"beautiful blonde" in Ettelbruck from his buddy, and how this buddy was
trying to get a date with this "beautiful blonde".

At the end of the year, my father went to the Austin Healey dealer and paid
CASH for the car.  Drove to Ettelbruck and started dating this "beautiful
blonde".  They got married, and I was born their first son.

Being unpreparied for family life, they suffered quite a bit.  Eventually,
they came to believe that they could make up for everything that they didn't
have, every opportunity that had been denied them by sacrificing their own
lives and staying together in order to be my parents.  Of course, that means
that I get to make up for every opportunity that they never had.

My mother always told me that I was smart.  Always remarked on how
wonderfully smart I am.  And when you are told something often enough, you
believe it.  And when you believe something, it becomes true.  I believe
that there are some contributing factors, like my mother spending a great
deal of time stimulating my senses when I was an infant.  She taught me to
read before I went to school, and I've always been a very strong reader with
very high comprehension as a result.  Since a single word misunderstood
could have been the difference between life and death for both my mother and
my father, as well as my mother's fears about being misunderstood, (English
isn't her native language..)  Or perhaps it was just that she really like to
be paid attention to, she taught me to hear each and every word that was
spoken to me, and to be able to repeat it at will.  The game went like this,
Mom would say "What did I just say" when I would say, well you said this,
and you said that, and she would say, " No, what did I say, WORD FOR WORD"
and I would then be required to say back every word that she was able to
remember.  (that's both a blessing and a curse in everyday life..)

I believe that my mother suffers from Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome, (she
has physical manifestations).  On the other hand, the one thing that she
drove into me when I was growing up was that no one would ever be able to
take away from me my knowledge and memories.  She learned this by surviving
the second world war and ending up with nothing but her memories.  She also
told me that what I learned was my responsibility, since she wasn't accepted
in the school system after she escaped the war.

My father may also suffer from post PTSS, but he's more violent and
agressive, and when I've managed to get behind the "Warrior" that dominates
his personality, I find the scared 7 year old child sent away to military
school.  My father taught me about the belief in an idea, the prolonged
striving for an ideal, no matter what the sacrifice.  He taught me that
there isn't any thing that I can't do, all I have to do is set my mind to
it.  He learned this from growing up in a military academy.  He learned the
"Warrior" spirit.

So there are my parents teachings ..

On the biological side, my families has a natural propensity for hand
dexterity, hence the master craftman title of my mother's father, and my
father's father being involved in electronics and winning the strongest
hands in LaCrosse national competition, a sport noted for it's requirement
of hand strength.  I believe that I have the same hand strength and
dexterity, as I used to be a professional arm wrestler, and played the flute
for serveral years, (was pushed to turn pro by several people).  I believe
that the hands are quite involved in the intellect.  (Hence the terms,
"grasp and idea" etc.)  Like the intelligence and ability to focus that
shows itself all through my family's history.  That ability to focus is what
I believe is a relection of "addictive tendencies".

So it's a natural side effect of being who I am that gives me these
abilities, which some have come to call addictive tendencies.  But on the
other hand, I'm on the inside, and I know that in order to understand
something, you have to obsess about the a field of knowledge until you have
fully digested the meanings and structures.

So are those the components that make up an addictive personality?  Judging
from the outside, people have often called these same tendency's addictive.
I call them me.

Wilbur

---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Fri Apr 26 08:26:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: masked ball
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:26:49 -0400

Walter,

Your idea of a masked ball list is intruiging; I must admit I have amused
myself wondering what an interaction between Sigmund Freud and a blade of
grass would be like!

<<The meta discussion of what occurred _there_ could happen here, on
Psyber-L.>>

<<I have participated in something like this, and more discussion would be
useful>>

I would like to hear more about what you have in mind.  I can envision
possibilities for how such a masked ball might work, but I'm not sure about
disscussion on Psyber-L.  How would we maintain anonymity?  Or would we?
 Might this be an occasional event -- or ongoing?  I would not like to see
the list move too far away from where it is now; I am just learning to be at
home here.

I am definitely interested.  Tell me more!

Marie

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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Fri Apr 26 09:00:47 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:00:47 -0500

At 02:10 PM 4/24/96 -0400, Marie (moonasylum@aol.com) wrote:

>Illusion is a powerful, glittering drug that would tell us we are being
>fed while we slowly starve to death.  Our commitment to authenticity
>and our ability to stand back and reflect on our experience mitigates
>the danger of being caught up in illusion.  Psyberia is only as real as
>we are willing to be....

The posting from which the above quote was drawn spoke strongly to me.  Over
the past year, I have been wrestling with major issues of cyberaddiction,
illusion, reality, and psychological growth.  I have become convinced on the
basis of personal experience that interactions in cyberspace are a powerful
force for psychological exploration and change.  I am equally convinced that
this is dangerous territory.  Three aspects of my background will suffice to
lay some groundwork for the issues I'm struggling with:

First, I have believed for many years that perception is conditioned by
training and experience.  The development of new paradigms requires the
willingness (and ability) to consider that what we believe is "real" is
instead a persuasive "illusion".  The geocentric worldview, for example,
succumbed to the success of an alternative model (heliocentrism) despite the
persuasive illusion of the former.  That my body is mostly empty space is
reality according to science...but questionable according to my immediate
perception.   From the standpoint of science, therefore, it is not clear
what is reality and what is illusion.  The point to be made here is that
cyberspace...considered as a psychological structure or medium under
transformation....may require new intellectual paradigms for successful
modeling and exploration.  The line between illusion and reality is *not*
easy to draw and perception is as closely related to intellect as it is to
sensation.

Second, on a personal level, I am a recovering alcoholic...I am well
acquainted with the dynamics of addiction and recovery.  I understand
intimately the meaning of personal powerlessness and I have seen at first
hand the dark aspects and cunning patience of my Shadow self.  I know the
value of spiritual solutions and the transformative nature of authentic
communication.  For over 13 years, I have had no interest in drugs or
alcohol...during this time I have grown in all aspects of my physical,
intellectual, emotional, and spiritual life.  Still, I consider myself to
have a deeply addictive personality which knows little fear of crossing
normative boundaries in the pursuit of its needs.  I believe this aspect of
myself can be channeled for light as well as for darkness...but the
distinction is not always easy to see.

Finally, over the past year, I have embarked for obscure reasons on a major
exploration of cyberspace focusing particularly on the possibility of using
online "chat" channels (IRC) to examine various aspects of my personality.
My initial unfocused assault (I couldn't tell you the number of hours spent
in this cybermedium) eventually found a focus in an intense
cyberrelationship with another cybernaut...a female undergoing explosive
changes in her own marriage and personal growth.  We explored cyberspace
together...we shared adventures...we merged our minds and imaginations...we
made love as blobs.  More than anything this experience has convinced me of
the potential of this cybermedium for the development of intimacy and
interpersonal contact.  Without wishing to argue, I will state that I
wholeheartedly disagree with those who say such electronic communication
isn't "real" because it lacks face-to-face contact.  On the contrary, the
lack of physical contact and cues seems to amplify other channels (similar
to the amplication of touch for the blind person) resulting in an
interpersonal connection which is a highly intense, emotionally rewarding,
and intimate.  The possibilities for the expansion of love alone are staggering.

My immediate problem relates back to my addictive tendencies and the
difficulties in distinguishing illusion from reality in cyberspace.  Thus
far, my wife (whom I love) is bemusedly detached but generally unaware of my
thoughts on the power of this medium and the true nature of my activities.
(She seems to have adopted a wait and see attitude to this stage in my
life.)  My job is challenging and secure but will ultimately suffer from a
continued unrestrained plunge into this limitless psychological space.  My
cyberrelationship has assumed a high priority over my time and thoughts...on
the other hand, it has been one of the most illuminating and rewarding
activities of my life.  My feeling is that this cyberrelationship must be
sorted out very quickly with respect to the issues of addiction, illusion,
reality, and personal growth.  The bottom line is I have no inclination to
lead a life filled with deception.  On the other hand, I do not wish to hurt
anyone, including my cyberpartner and soulmate.  I suspect that whatever
happens will be painful for me...

Any comments will be appreciated...private or in public.


Steven

****************************************************************
"It is better to try and idealize the real than to try and realize the ideal."

                ----A Chinese cookie fortune

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Fri Apr 26 10:39:07 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Me, Myself, I
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:39:07 +0100

Barbara sorry Imeant to write and thankyou for your explanation. Combined
with Maries It made everything perfectly clear for me. Thanks again.

I have loved in cyberspace the way I was never able to in real life. I never
trusted anybody enough in real life with who I really am, to believe that
the real me could be loved.
For me the mask I wear is not in cyberspace but in *real* life.
I can hide behind what I outwardly appear to be in life. I never give
anything away. I can manipulate situations by appearing to be exactly what I
want to convey.  I have acted like a bimbo more times than I care to
remember or am proud to admit in order to manipulate the world around me.
(for world read men). I am not who I appear to be but what I wish you to see
me as. (this probably shows a complete lack of self respect but it gets results)
 There is no pretence here for me. I am not judged on the way I look..I am
not intimidated by face to face contact. I am the sum of my words.  My
Thespian skills are more attuned to real life deception.
You have no faces. You are the essence of your personalities, you are your
egos and your fears and your vulnerabilities. Each mailing and you uncover a
little more about yourselves. Who you really are, less of how you wish to
appear. We all slowly drop our masks here and reveal a little more about
ourselves. Our role play is in our day to day life.

I fell in love in cyberspace, with a man who I have never met nor am ever
likely to.  I dont know if he takes sugar in his coffee, or if he snores
but I know how he really feels about himself. I dont know what it is to hold
his hand in mine, but I have held his thoughts and entwined them with mine..
I havent played in his arms but I have played in his imagination and I have
said words to him that in real life have an entirely different meaning.
When we say in real life I love you.. then we encompass aspects of reality
that dont exist in cyberspace. It took me a long time to work out that those
words mean something entirely different here.. I dont love the *man*..I have
never seen him..I dont suppose that in real life we would be particularly
compatible. The words I love you mean something different here. I love
him..*you* all that is part of you, the rest of the world never sees. I love
all that is you, that is locked away and rarely shown. The complete essence
of the man. The core of his being..not the peripheral mask that he wears
through life.  It is a different sort of love, but none the less deep, none
the less valid, and none the less painfull. It is no illusion..but it is not
a sustainable reality. The man I love has another life, one where I cannot
enter and there he wears the mask of his own choosing. He cannot so easily
hide behind it here...which is strange for you would have thought the
reverse to be true.
I love him for knowing who I really am.
Ultimatly..in cyberspace there is no pretence. You cannot run from who you
truly are here. It makes itself known. That is when you can look into the
mirror of your mind and truly know yourself.


Oh by the way Fred..where are you.. got your last cryptic priv
email..waiting for a post along the same lines. (If you dare)

And if I owe anybody an email can they please remind me because I have got a
bit behind.

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Fri Apr 26 11:12:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:12:26 -0400

<snip>

>interpersonal contact.  Without wishing to argue, I will state that I
>wholeheartedly disagree with those who say such electronic communication
>isn't "real" because it lacks face-to-face contact.  On the contrary, the
>lack of physical contact and cues seems to amplify other channels (similar
>to the amplication of touch for the blind person) resulting in an
>interpersonal connection which is a highly intense, emotionally rewarding,
>and intimate.  The possibilities for the expansion of love alone are
staggering.

But it's not "real" it's not something that can be ultimatly fullfilling, as
you haven't come to realize yet.  Love?  Is it love when you don't know the
face of the other person?  Is it love when you are limited to about 20 wpm
on an IRC?  Is it "Love" when you can't even control the font that the other
person sees?  Is it "Love" when the only mechanism of communcation is type
written text on a computer screen?  I vote no!

Sure, the fantasy can appear real, but it's just a fantasy, take phone sex
as an example.  Addicting, yes.. but ultimatly fulfilling, no!  Can you make
a child from Netsex?  Can you really come to understand the other individual
as you would if you live with them?  No!  It's an interesting diversion, and
depending on your ability to immerse yourself in typing, may indeed seem
real, but it's not as real as a face to face relationship.  It's not as real
as making a child with someone.  It's not as real as "Real Life".

>My immediate problem relates back to my addictive tendencies and the
>difficulties in distinguishing illusion from reality in cyberspace.  Thus
>far, my wife (whom I love) is bemusedly detached but generally unaware of my
>thoughts on the power of this medium and the true nature of my activities.
>(She seems to have adopted a wait and see attitude to this stage in my
>life.)  My job is challenging and secure but will ultimately suffer from a
>continued unrestrained plunge into this limitless psychological space.  My
>cyberrelationship has assumed a high priority over my time and thoughts...on
>the other hand, it has been one of the most illuminating and rewarding
>activities of my life.  My feeling is that this cyberrelationship must be
>sorted out very quickly with respect to the issues of addiction, illusion,
>reality, and personal growth.  The bottom line is I have no inclination to
>lead a life filled with deception.

But you are, in a sense, already doing that.  You claim that you have no
control over how your dark side crosses the lines, but indeed, you are on
the only one in control.  No one else has the control.

>On the other hand, I do not wish to hurt anyone, including my cyberpartner
>and soulmate.

Is the soulmate the one that you are married to?  If not, then you are
decieving yourself and not living up to the vows that you probably made when
you got married.

>I suspect that whatever happens will be painful for me...

I suspect that you are already in pain, and will probably experience some more..

>Any comments will be appreciated...private or in public.

Steven,

I'm sorry that what I say may seem harsh, (actually, more accuratly, what I
type..) but the emotional truth is that you have an involvement with a woman
outside your marriage, and that is something that you'll have to deal with
at some point, or your marriage will fail.  It's quite possible that your
marriage is already failing, but it's also quite possible that you are
avoiding your personal responsibilties to your marriage and using NetSex as
a temporary drug/replacement for those things that you aren't getting out of
your marriage.

Ultimately, however the question and the truth boils down to this question,
how fulfilled as a man will you be if you don't have real sex and just have
cyber sex?  If the answer is that you would be unfulfilled with a steady
diet of cyber sex only, then CyberSex isn't real.

>****************************************************************
>"It is better to try and idealize the real than to try and realize the ideal."

hmmm.. perhaps you need to mediatate on this fortune!

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Fri Apr 26 11:34:18 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: midlife crisis
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:34:18 -0400

Robert,

I appreciate the risk you took in sharing yourself so openly.  Your personal
story may not, in itself, be directly relevant to the 'net, but some of your
words led me to a train of thought that I think may speak to our endeavor
here.

<<I don't think any mid-life crisis can escape a complete re-evaluation of
every atom of one's existence.  Choices must be made....  With the choices
there are losses as well as gains.>>

We make choices all our lives, some more consciously than others, all closing
as many doors as they open.  The choices I made in all my yesterdays shape
who I am today, and sculpted the life I lead.  I chose what roles to play,
who I invested myself in, where I would stay, and when I would leave.  I
chose who I would be.  Since my life has not been a happy one, I would rather
not face my responsibility for the flow of the years, but if I disown the
role of director in my past, I cannot claim it now -- and I believe that it
is within my power to manifest change, both in myself and in the
circumstances of my life.
Midlife is crisis, I think, because we face a diminishing number of days, and
become acutely aware of our mortality.  There is not all the time in the
world.  We begin to hear the small, lonely voices of all the people we did
not choose to be -- the children who were never fed, never heard, never held
-- the aspects of self we denied in the service of expediancy or perceived
need -- the voices of the soul.

Mark Freeman -- <<Rewriting the Self>> -- claims that personal transformation
involves  the loss of the self we believed ourself to be, a loss that feels
like death and triggers intense waves of fear and grief that make it seem
safer to stay as we were.  Only a very powerful need could overcome such
primal resistance.  Only the plaintive cry of the long-denied children of our
soul...

Others in our life also fear change in us, especially if it threatens the
world we have created together.  It is a life-shaking matter, the death of a
marriage; there is no way to become the new self we long to be without
letting go of the self we once were, without hurting the other who does not
want to change.

Or is there?  Perhaps here is a place to test the waters, to begin to express
our inner needs and reveal the many facets of our being, to find out how it
feels to bring this new self to life and to reflect on how it would feel to
silence it again.  Or perhaps -- here is a place where unmet needs can be met
sufficiently to let us keep our outside world intact.
I do not envy you this choice, Robert.

Marie

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Fri Apr 26 11:53:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Me, Myself, I
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:53:00 -0400

I wanted to say that I think that I've found a way to deal with the problems
of cyber involvement.. I found a girl that wasn't a cyber virgin and when I
send out email's I often send her a copy.  (like this message) We have a
deal that she can read any of my email anytime she want's..   That way I
don't have to worry about getting lead somewhere where I can't communcate it
to her, since she and I often discuss what is going on in CyberSpace.. and
I'm open enough to her that I don't have to worry about involvement beyound
what is comfortable for myself.

I'd also like to say that there is a part of me that is quite real and isn't
expressed here in Cyberspace.. my behaviour in "real life" is quite
different from the personna that I take on here.. I would say that is
primarily because I have to spend more time thinking about what I want to
say in Cyberspace because of the more restricted bandwidth.  It's takes
quite a while to say something, but since I spend so much time saying it and
working out what I want to say, often the depth of what I want to say goes
beyound my original intentions... I think that is one of the general
characteristics of writing, with the ability to review, rewrite, etc.  It
also occurs to me that the lack of context from real life provides quite a
hinderance, along with the limited bandwidth of finger to keyboard.

There is another story that I'd like to mention to perhaps show where I
don't have much difficulty in understanding that this reality isn't real.
Perhaps because I write software I'm immune, since I see and understand the
underlying technology, rather then percieving this "Cyberspace" as some sort
of magic.

I've been doing Judo since I'm seven years old.  I think that I'm quite good
at it, and considering the competative level that I've reached, there are
some that would agree with me.  I learned in Judo that it's OK to be thrown,
since by being thrown, in turn, I learn how to throw.  So I didn't have any
problem getting thrown.  (something that most people have a big problem
with..)  From the age of 16 to the age of 24 I took a hiatus from practicing
Judo, so I had to reteach my body things that it already knew.  Sometimes it
would remember the action directly and I'd throw my opponent, but often I
just would end up flying in the air.  As a part of my training, I starting
practicing with the "Sensei" (teacher) a sixty something year old Japanese
Immigrant who has beautiful technique, (and was also the Olympic coach).
Being 24, and not afraid of being thrown, I would fly around quite a bit.
Yani, (Sensei), has a beautiful technique that is known as a foot sweep.
Wanting to learn this throw, I would watch him do that throw to others, and
also watch him do it to me.  Each time he would sweep it would seem that I
would just lift off the ground, level off at about 5 feet, and then float
down to crash on the ground.  Since I could fall without injury, I would
engage in this strange form of flight about 15 times a night once or twice a
week for about 2 years.  After that many flights, I would be able to tell
when they were coming, but I couldn't stop the technique, and I would still
fly quite regularly.  I was even able to use this technique on other
players, but I still couldn't stop being thrown by Yani's foot sweeps.  I'd
watch in fascination as he would start the throw, and then I would struggle
to avoid it, but it never made any difference, I'd fly, slap the mat, and
then bow in respect at having been throw once again.

One day I was making it a bit harder for Yani to throw me, or perhaps he
wanted to show me what I was doing wrong, but for some reason, while I was
watching his feet while he set me up for a foot sweep, he rattled my Gi in
the line of site between my eyes and his feet.  The breaking up of visual
connection to his feet confused me for just an instant, and he threw me once
again.  But I learned something, I learned that I didn't need to look at him
to "feel" him throwing me, since depite my visual confusion, I couldn't see
myself being thrown, but I would still feel myself being thrown.  All of a
sudden I realized that perhaps my eyes were getting in the way of my
technique.  Perhaps the visual reality was not "real" and I was preoccupied
by the visual reality and getting thrown as a result.  I would recall
situations as a child competing at the International level in Judo where I
wasn't able to follow the stuggle in my "Mind's eye" anymore and just gave
myself over to the physical struggle, often to good effect.

I decided to study the timing of what I had realized, and it works out
something like this.. the eyes take about 0.1 seconds to form an image.
That image in turn generates an understanding in the brain, which then takes
about 0.2 seconds to generate a physical response.  Yani's foot sweep is at
the level of a conditioned reflex, and in a video tape of him doing the
throw, literally from one frame to the next he turns and engages in the
throw, so he certainly is able to accomplish the engagement of the throw in
less than 0.3 seconds.  As a result, I would find myself struggling to
respond to what I had seen as he was throwing me, seeing myself being thrown
all the way down.

I stopped watching with my eyes and starting feeling with my hands and body,
and eventually became able to stop Yani from throwing me with his foot
sweep.  The give away for Yani is that when he's not going to throw you, he
feels like a ton of bricks, but when he can't be felt anymore, that's when
he is going to throw you, so watch out.

So I have a very concrete experience that reality isn't "real".  That
conciousness isn't "reality" but a very good representation of reality that
likes to believe is "real".  That give and take on a physical level is a
quite different reality from the give and take in the business world, or in
Cyberspace.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Fri Apr 26 11:56:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Wilber..jung..love etc etc etc
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 00:56:29 +0100

>
>But it's not "real" it's not something that can be ultimatly fullfilling, as
>you haven't come to realize yet.  Love?  Is it love when you don't know the
>face of the other person?  Is it love when you are limited to about 20 wpm
>on an IRC?  Is it "Love" when you can't even control the font that the other
>person sees?  Is it "Love" when the only mechanism of communcation is type
>written text on a computer screen?  I vote no!

Course its love Wilbur.. define love for me before you start deciding
whether or not in can exist in an electronicly enhanced enviroment.

>Sure, the fantasy can appear real, but it's just a fantasy, take phone sex
>as an example.  Addicting, yes.. but ultimatly fulfilling, no!  Can you make
>a child from Netsex?  Can you really come to understand the other individual
>as you would if you live with them?  No!  It's an interesting diversion, and
>depending on your ability to immerse yourself in typing, may indeed seem
>real, but it's not as real as a face to face relationship.  It's not as real
>as making a child with someone.  It's not as real as "Real Life".

Wilbur..I'd really hate to accuse you of confusing sex with love here. Can
you understand the other individual as you would if you live with them.
Yes..more so even. Any idiot can make a child mores the pity..love isnt
always involved in that act either.
>
>
>But you are, in a sense, already doing that.  You claim that you have no
>control over how your dark side crosses the lines, but indeed, you are on
>the only one in control.  No one else has the control.
>
>>On the other hand, I do not wish to hurt anyone, including my cyberpartner
>>and soulmate.
>
>Is the soulmate the one that you are married to?  If not, then you are
>decieving yourself and not living up to the vows that you probably made when
>you got married.

Why decieving himself?
>
>>I suspect that whatever happens will be painful for me...
>
>I suspect that you are already in pain, and will probably experience some
more..
>
>I suspect Wilbur your right
>
>Steven,
>
>I'm sorry that what I say may seem harsh, (actually, more accuratly, what I
>type..) but the emotional truth is that you have an involvement with a woman
>outside your marriage, and that is something that you'll have to deal with
>at some point, or your marriage will fail.  It's quite possible that your
>marriage is already failing, but it's also quite possible that you are
>avoiding your personal responsibilties to your marriage and using NetSex as
>a temporary drug/replacement for those things that you aren't getting out of
>your marriage.

I dont remember him citing netsex as the motivating force behind the
relationship Wilbur.
Any relationship based soley on sex/netsex is doomed to failure eventually.

>
>Ultimately, however the question and the truth boils down to this question,
>how fulfilled as a man will you be if you don't have real sex and just have
>cyber sex?  If the answer is that you would be unfulfilled with a steady
>diet of cyber sex only, then CyberSex isn't real.

Again, your basing your hypothesises on his relationship being only carnal
in nature.
I suspect Wilbur your short of a few romantic bones. Throughout history love
has been glorified in text..with the written word. We create words from
love..why not love from words.

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri Apr 26 14:55:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Jung and Gestalt at the masked ball
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 20:55:24 -0600

Hi my compartriots of Psyberia,

MT>Jung believed that neglected
MT>aspects of the personality remain unconscious, repressed, and therefore
MT>retain their more primitive, undifferentiated characteristics.  Repressed
MT>archetypes do not, however, subside into peaceful quiescence; they slip the
MT>bonds of conscious control in extreme, often pathological ways.

        Marie's words here give cause for Walter's proposed experiment *the
masked ball*.  Creating that *safe* anonymous environment with players who
have already established a sense of trust amongst each other, can only
heighten what many have already said has been a positive experience.  And as
Marie points out below, we have an "experimental" stage where we can
role-play in a host of alternative personalities.

MT>Is this not an argument for the use of Cyberspace as a playground , a kind of
MT>experimental laboratory where alternative personalities can find expression?

        And as she notes, we can't but help to be authentic (even if we try
the role of opposite gender) because of the context in which we have lived
and thought.  Self-discovery is the goal.

MT> If, on the other hand, I choose to find out how it feels to express myself
MT>(my authentic self) in a more expansive way, without concern for artificial
MT>designations
                        <snip>
MT> I can escape
MT>the tyranny of labels and root my experience in a personally meaningful
MT>context.

        I would think that one could successfully pull off such a feat of
legerdemain through the use of "gestalt-like" approaches to alternative
personality role-playing (the lake speaks with the boat and the island and
the beach and the tree ...). Like the native culture, we could find our
spirit animal and interact on such a basis.  The variations are endless,
what Marie terms as <<a metaphorical presentation of self>> -- In the end,
all the variations are summed up in the totality of one's psyche.


>This is a place where we can see ourselves as others
>see us, where we can become more conscious of the way we present ourselves to
>the world, where we can expand our repetoire of interactional styles.  We
>facilitate that process for each other, directly (through our written
>responses) and indirectly (by who and what we respond to, and how).

        Here, the "blind-self" becomes smaller through the reflections of
ourselves that we see in the "others".

MT>Robert wrote that <<it is very striking to note the parallels between Jung's
MT>thesis and the dialogue of romance and sex.  The authors of the dialogues
MT>create an illusion that draws them in so intensely yet offers only a sterile
MT>and empty reward, an illusion that heightens the isolation they are so
MT>vigorously trying to escape using the 'net.>>  I think he is right.  Illusion
MT>is a powerful, glittering drug that would tell us we are being fed while we
MT>slowly starve to death.  Our commitment to authenticity and our ability to
MT>stand back and reflect on our experience mitigates the danger of being caught
MT>up in illusion.  Psyberia is only as real as we are willing to be....

        As I prepare these words for your ears, I am truly surprised at the
level of authenticity that has surfaced in just the past week.  I have been
paricipating on listservs for five years (at least) without ever having seen
this level of trust displayed.  It seems that the members of Psyberia have
decided that this cyber-home is real--therefore, they are real and must then
present themselves as real people, not just cyber-ghosts.

        Walter, your suggestion <<The meta discussion of what occurred
_there_ could happen here, on Psyber-L>> is, in my opinion, vital to the
activity in the "masked ball".  We could use each others insight (even to
the point of hearing our own voices reflect subconscious thought).  I don't
think we would compromise the anonymity of the characters at the "masked
ball".  I think it would be wise to use Wilbur's suggestion of an *anonymous
re-mailer*.  A number of us would definitely peek to see *who* is *really*
speaking--a reflex that may harm the dialogue itself.

        Walter, sign me up for the playground.

Robert de Cyberie

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Fri Apr 26 19:10:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: element of synchronicity
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:10:25 +0200

Judith to Walter, among other things, most of which I agree with:
>>>
As as aside or the point here, I find the element of synchronicity which
occurs in cyberspace the reason for my continued engagement.
<<<
Sync in which sense ??
If it's short response time, then please enjoy being embedded in the vast
American e-mail community, in which local times differ at most by some hours.
Here in Europe, we've got to live with a time difference of 8 hrs from, say,
Ohio; so there must be other motives for us to engage,
As I happen to write on e-mail immediacy models, I'd like to read about the
meaning of the word 'synchronicity' in *your* context.

All the best,
Mila

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From judithb@sbc1.com Fri Apr 26 19:39:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Me, Myself, I
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 07:39:19 GMT

Wilbur you stir some thoughts about the kinesthetic and energy and space and
what this means here with your description of your *physicalenergetic*
experience for me. These are my strong senses and it has been fascinating to
experience connection on-line.
<I stopped watching with my eyes and starting feeling with my hands and body,
and eventually became able to stop Yani from throwing me with his foot
sweep.  The give away for Yani is that when he's not going to throw you, he
feels like a ton of bricks, but when he can't be felt anymore, that's when
he is going to throw you, so watch out.

So I have a very concrete experience that reality isn't "real".  That
conciousness isn't "reality" but a very good representation of reality that
likes to believe is "real".  That give and take on a physical level is a
quite different reality from the give and take in the business world, or in
Cyberspace.

Wilbur>

In my first class on-line there were 35 of us plus instructors and huge
amounts of data flying across my screen and after2 weeks my mind circuits
blew, literally, and I went into disassociation for about a week. Luckily I
had a sense of what was happening however what I learned out of it was that
the way I *know* a person is by sensing their energy field and I couldn't
organize the data in relation to the person in the on-line environment and
the mind activity got to critical mass and all my meaning schemes were
severed. (Jack Mezirow says this is when transformational learning occurs
BTW) As I reflected on the experience and finally got to the knowing I
realized that I was holding a limitation which was that I couldn't read the
fields of the participants because of the idea of distance. When I readjusted
and reminded myself there is no space.I had experimented with the idea years
before but neglected to realize the implications in my maiden voyage. When I
got that piece of knowing I found immediately I could identify the
individuals energetically and thus could process the huge amount of data
going across my screen. The learning extended into learning style work around
Kolb and the converger/diverger etc and fairly soon I had formulated a model
which allowed me to take in the plankton here and let the data do its own
thing. And when something emerged it emerged. Research says kinesthetics make
up about 23% of the population, don't have much of an idea about what that
would translate to on-line, but it makes a difference in how I engage after
expanding my *spacial* limits.

judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Fri Apr 26 20:23:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: text
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:23:05 +0100

Oh dear, here Wilbur goes again, putting a technological face on our
humanity <grin>:

> I have this wonderful game that I can play with my mouth.  I can
> make these sounds that seem to make sense, but they don't make
> any sense at all, because they are just sounds.  All of a sudden I
> realize that they aren't sounds, they're words, but then again, they
> aren't really making any sense after all.  But then they seem to
> make wonderful sense, because they are something that means
> more than the words, perhaps it's all of the people that have come
> before me, that have found voice in my words, perhaps it's even,
> gasp, God speaking, but then again, they are just words, and just
> sounds, and after all, it's just a silly little game that I've learned
> how to play with my mouth.

There are *excellent* reasons for construing text as meaning only what a
reader / listener brings to it as meaning -- apart from anything else, it's
an effective counter-spell to the spell woven by eg advertisers, a means of
clearing away the rubble of *unchosen magic* by which we tend to be
bewitched, with our nationalisms and personal fetishistic ideas of "this is
how it's supposed to be" and expectations about what forms love can and
cannot inhabit...

But there are *better* -- or rather I should say *deeper* -- reasons, along
the lines of Pascal's remark "the heart has reasons reason knows not of",
for viewing language as meaning also more than this...  apart from anything
else, because specific states of consciousness latent in us can be *called
forth* in words in a way which cuts across our usual defences against such
states -- and these states have "meaning" in a way which can be directly
and magnificently healing to ourselves and others.  But then I have a page
about all this under the title "In the words of a Tibetan Geshe" on the web
at:

>>>   http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/Geshe.html

This is an extended formulation, because I wanted to discuss any number of
important ideas from a variety of cultures as to what such states of
consciousness might be -- yugen and mutabilitie, duende and lachrimae
rerum, the blues and sringara -- but it all expands on a very simple idea,
central to eastern poetics:

::  poetry is the science of using words in such a way that a state of
::  consciousness present in one is summoned in another.

*

Any truly polyphonic discussion of language and meaning will therefore need
to contain both Wilbur's voice and meaning <grinning again> and the voice
and meaning offered by Steve Calhoun...

A fugue would be nice...

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Fri Apr 26 21:00:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: coming out of a cave
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 04:00:21 -0500

Dear Psyberians--How good to be back around the kitchen table with you again. A
week away has felt long, even though I've only known you for such a short time.
Beauty and the Beast have found wholeness within themselves, which enabled then
to reach out to one another in full intimacy--Beast has reconcilled with his
anima, Beauty with her animus, and they are both transformed as a result.
Fortunately they let me capture their journey on paper and retell their story
at a conference--hopefully they will let me finetune the manuscript for another
telling (the ugly cyclops of "publish or perish" threatens me otherwise). I
have just spent about 5 hours moving through a weeks worth of e-mail and what
treasures awaited me--small delights (seeing my old e-mail address with Steve
Hoath's postings--Univ. of Cincinnati [Ohio, USA] was home the past few years;
reading Pixy's reference to Burkean dramatism, which I have been swimming in
for weeks in doing my writing on Beauty/Beast) and wonderful reaffirmations of
trust and vulnerability (oh, my, what honor Laurel, Wilbur, Marie, Robert, and
Fred have done us all this week in their sharing of themselves so deeply--what
a change in tone the interaction between Laurel and Fred brought too--thank you
all for your gifts of self/soul). The process of reading through this has
brought an interesting awareness of the experience, which I thought I might
offer up--if I seem wandery, please bear with me--I'm particularly fragile
tonight and need the comfort of your conversation and company.
        My in-box was a miscellany of postings from Psyberfolk, a net Research
group, several domestic abuse lists, a few personal notes--the reading then
blended in pastiche many threads. The counterpoint of the threads on
mindsharing and the lure of relationships on the net with postings from rape
and battering survivors/counselors was quite disorienting at times--each source
had elements of rawness, but of such different qualities. The psyber postings
were a refuge, a place of safety. What beauty in the poetry (including the
lyricism of the prose)--ah, Robert "spinning webs from bits of incandescent
light," and Mila's "joy flash" of understanding --Laurel's mindsharing
especially touched me--to see that "rare and precious thing that can be felt
here...to enable a communion, so intense, so in harmony at times, a perfect
dance of souls"--and Fred's "land of pure thought born of real people," which
would, from Walter, "allow us to get a closer glimpse of the nature of the
beauty and the beast that we are"--the excursions into Jungian thought (just as
I was trying to work this out for Beauty/Beast!).  The strong connection with
the conversation, the joy in the words and ideas, carried with it great pain,
however. Last night (in rl ?) ended a long term relationship--we were at a
distance and e-mail wasn't enough for him, it wasn't vibrant or vital, it was
cold and sterile and distant. How could this be--for me our e-mail was a place
t share my heart and soul, to explore the depths of my feelings, to play with
new ways to look at things, to problem solve issues of the relationship. It was
my element, playing with words, which have been my joy since earliest memory.
But not so for him--"don't send me anything longer than 2 pages," he said. How
could I capture the complexity of anything in 2 screens? Worse yet, he saw most
everything I said as condescending, born of intellectual snobery --NO!!! NO!!
NO!! the anguish of such an accusation when what I offered was the sincerest,
richest, deepest parts of my self (ah, Laurel, I realize here that your shots
into the "dark" re: big words and academic jargon were like an arrow into my
heart, here in the one place which seemed safe to be me, to play with the words
that are so much a part of me, to expand my universes of discourse through the
marvelous wordplay of others, to revel in the words/ideas/constructions of
others, even here the tower was being assailed and the walls breached--perhaps
I saw his face/voice projected onto yours and jumped to defend the core of me
that was being now doubly attacked--my apologies for snarling). I realize too
the relative safety of vulnerability on this medium--no face to lose if I am
overhelmed by emotions. F2F doesn't afford that luxury--I wept in front of a
class today (what cruel syncronicity gave me the topic of lifecycles of intimate
relationships to cover today--and I was dumb enough to think I could read a
story as introduction without losing my control)--Here in reading my mail and
in "minding" this posting I have also wept, but I have the choice to offer that
in trust to each of you or to hold that in reserve for my own private grief.
Unfortunately one of the drawbacks of the net is that even in feeling enough
safety to "weep aloud" with you, the channel does have a remoteness--no arms
long enough to offer comfort, no touch intense enough to break though the
screen in front of me. The keyboard doesn't have the touch of a hand or the
firm/softness of a shoulder. I am surprised at the safety I feel though-- and
the delight at having such a forum to process the processing of this with you
(esp. interesting since I was intimidated by Laurel's postings back several
weeks ago, yet it was the exchange between Laurel and Fred this past week
that seemed to revise the tone of what's going on and enhance the safety.)
        I see the clock and realize I must go to bed, lest I sleep through the
alarm and not get my munchkin off to school on time. Walter, I owe you some
discussion of rhetoric over here--I haven't forgotten.

                                Susan

Susan Z. Swan, Ph.D.
Dept. of Speech Communication
University of South Dakota

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Fri Apr 26 21:45:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Cyber-Love, Synchronicity etc.
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:45:27 +0100

Hi again everybody,

That's a *lot* of Psybernet articles I see in my mailbox!

If the traffic here's going to stay at this level I'm going to have to
start 'photo-reading' the articles.

I've been intrigued by the cyber-sex discussion here & the
further mentions of synchronicity;

I thought I'd drop my 2pworth in, too -

[Well, 560 line worth actually but I've never been Mr Concise on the net];

Rather than mailbomb everybody again I'll just give the URL this time-
if anyone would like an e-mail copy just ask me.

I've been thinking about this 'cyber-sex' idea and the parallels to my own
technique of telling one's subconscious mind that it is deeply in love
under trance;

Whereas people are often sceptical in my experience of the value of
cyber-romance, the effects of my own approach are strikingly obvious and
very powerful, as I described in the article I posted here entitled
'Jeffries ideas for nice people'.

Having had a good think I've come to the conclusion that Laurel's ideas
are perfectly reasonable & that the emotions and feelings generated in
such 'cyber-sex' could produce similar mental and physical benefits to
my own approach.

I think a lot depends on the degree to which people get engrossed in
a chat, an e-mail discussion or a newsgroup thread; People quite commonly
do get hypnotised by the TV and online, and the degree of emotional involvement
plays a large part in how deeply one goes into alpha consciousness;

Other factors involved in stimulating the emotions include visualisation,
ability to bypass the critical faculty of the concsious mind to connect
the right-brain directly with the conversation and interaction, and
the natural somnambulistic ability of the persons concerned;

Being a natural somnambulist myself I tend to get very emotionally involved
in discussions on the net [and quite often need a hypnosis & affirmation
session to remove the bad vibes! :-)].

I feel that much of the 'mainstream' information we are bombarded with by
the media is designed purposely to produce negative feelings  - in effect,
mental and emotional rape. I dont watch the news last thing at night [on
the advice of Louise Hay], since it just seems to be a list of disasters;
I believe that much clearing work is done in the dream states of consciousness
and I dont want to take that negativity into them.

If cyber-sex [I would rather call it cyber-love to be honest, because it is
the romantic involvement, the friendship, the intimacy, the kindness and
the so very positive feelings of love and happiness which I like to
engage in cyber-talk on, not the sexual act itself. However, I think
that's part and parcel of what Laurel and Dolores are talking about?]
gives an antidote to that and constitutes a positive influence on the
subconscious mind, then I'm all for it.


I'll close this article with some pointers to some more information I
would like to recommend to people interested in raising their immune
system / level of happiness / feelings of love through altered states
of consciousness:

You can heal your life, Louise L Hay 1984  [bestseller]

Answer Cancer, The Healing of a Nation, Steve Parkhill: Health Communications
1995. Parkhill's book shows how to apply Louise Hay's insights through
hypnosis.

Creative Visualisations, Ronald Shone : shows how to use imagery to heighten
emotion and stimulate right-brain involvement


My own 'Jeffries ideas for nice people II - Tearing down the wall' is now
up at http://www.gla.ac.uk/~combpsy.html

New Dawn magazine and Nexus magazine are now up on the web at :

these have many articles which discuss the esoteric basis of love, energy
and emotions, as well as a large amount of 'alternative' and conspiracy
information.


www.peg.apc.org/~newdawn/

www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/

See you in another couple of hundred articles :-)

Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sat Apr 27 00:19:48 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 06:19:48 -0600

Hi Regina,

        Welcome to the crisis club.

>Maybe the teen years would be the only other
>time when I think the emotions were so overwhelming.

        Interesting that you should notice that.  The emotional turmoil of
hormones and the idealism of freshly discovered thinking powers does indeed
have a reflection in the biology and intellectual/spiritual crisis of mid-life.

>The net has inhanced our
>relationship, and not just because it is a shared interest.

        The ability to communicate, the opening of the dialogue channels
within oneself must indeed reflect back to real-time relationships.
Unfortunately, not all relationships will *grow* with authentic dialogue.
Sometimes the dialogue just illustrates the real gulf that exists and
highlights the truth that the gulf is unbridgeable.  I'm glad it has worked
out for you.  For me, I'm in process, so no comment one way or the other.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sat Apr 27 00:20:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tilting at windmills
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 06:20:01 -0600

Wilbur,

        Sad tale of humanity in positions of power, a common tale.  I wish
that there was some way that one could be screened (trained) for positions
of responsibility and power.  Perhaps one day mediums such as PSYBER-L will
become part of the executive training ground.  It's hard to hang out here
and not pick up a few ethical thoughts.

Robert de Cyberie

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 27 00:38:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever..
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:38:59 GMT

Barbara,

> Walter,
> How neat that you live in Christchurch!  Do you happen to know Diane
> Madgin or her husband Bill (don't remember his last name, but he is a
> Sociology prof at the univerisity.) They are the friends we visited a
> year ago.
> Barbara (Boulder, CO)

I do!  I expect you mean Bill Willmot.  I don't know them well but
taught his daughter briefly years ago.  Also my son did sociology and
will recall him well.

Do you know them well?



Walter
Sensing the rl world creeping in . . .

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 27 00:39:04 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tilting at windmills
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:39:04 GMT

Wilbur,


[Wrote this before reading your later *** warning signs *** post.
Makes this sound a little lame.  Will post as is anyway.]

> In other words, there is an old line "It the lie that brings us together",
> but being truthful to a fault, how to I bring people together without being
> able to lie?  My current answer is to start a business from scratch, create
> new technology, and then build a corporate culture that doesn't have the
> same problems as the ones that I've seen (and I've seen quite a few).

I recall our discussions about the devil in us all.  All my life I
have created projects that were to overcome the problems of the
dominant culture.  A commune in the late 60s.  (it still exists and I
am still involved after a 25 year absence)  one group is now taking
another group to court over the assets!  Argg! I am part of the one
being taken, ah well . . .

Another project was an alternative school.  I taught there during its
first four years.  It recently closed after 20 years and I am pleased,
it had a devil in it too!

Most recent, and painful is that I set up a psychotherapy centre with
my closest friends, after three years or so we fell out and I feel
cheated of the friendships, betrayed.  I am still coming to terms with
that one, very difficult.  Since then I have a very private private
practice, slowly building up a new collegial network and having just
opened a new group room, as a sole owner!

I say all this in response to your brave plans to form a new culture.
Tilting at windmills?  I hope not, you see despite my struggles with
the counter-cultural projects in my life I have not become cynical.  I
have learnt about myself and how to do this through each project.  I
am not just repeating a cycle.  However I do not know clearly how to
proceed.

This Psybernet project has now been on the go for 3 yrs.  Here too we
have had our struggles.  For all that, I hope to make a niche for
professional work on-line, in the context of an ethical , nurturing ,
vigorous culture.  "Make" is probably the wrong verb, discover?

Why here?  I think there was an element of escape into cyberspace as
my rl collegial links were at a low.  This did not affect my
psychotherapy practice as I have been full to capacity most of the
time. Since then I have formed new & excellent collegial
relationships, and am enjoying the collaborative work around running
groups and peer supervision etc.  This has taken a leap forward just
as this list has in the last few months.  I do ask: why here?  I don't
think it is addiction for me.  I have the sense of being an explorer,
and a builder in something new.  I simply have no choice!  The pull to
be present at the dawning of this newness is overwhelming.  The
culture, relationships, professionalism, economics are all taking wild
new leaps, I want to be here, especially with an eye to what happens
to psyche.

So as I listen to you speak of ethics and building a new corporate
culture around a new technology I feel a kinship in our struggles.
The technology I have is a half built beta approach to the psyche in
cyberspace.  Hardly the killer app!  Yet I want to find ways of
resourcing this project and myself, it needs that, I need that.

I really do hope we are not tilting at windmills  (I nearly wrote
windows!)

You know, discussing money is a taboo.  Could it be that money is
today what sex was in freud's day?  No, both topics were taboo then,
as they are now (unless we objectify and divorce our selves from them,
in which case they fly to the fore in our culture.)   One of the
unwritten inventions made by freud IMO, is that he could charge a fee
for listening and talking, that it was about sex may have been
secondary.  The material basis for psychoanalysis as a marxist might
say.

I think that as we explore the psyche in cyberspace, culture in
cyberspace, to look at the info-nomics is important.  Just as it is
important to recall that we have rl bodies and lives as we enter into
this imaginal realm.


Wilbur, you conclude:

> I don't wish to sacrifice my belief in ethics and justice in order to get
> ahead, since I feel that it's my ethics and judgement that makes me someone
> that deserves to get ahead..  quite a problem.  Care to help me find some
> answers?

I don't doubt your ethics as I listen to you.  I have a sense that the
devil (archetype) lives amongst us, and will do so in any organisation
or group we form.  I think judith put this well in her post

:: Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis
:: From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
:: Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 12:50:57 GMT

>>> The danger is that for instance here we all agree and begin to experience a trust and begin to open and mind darts have the
potential to fly. <<<

She does not believe in the inadvertent, ie something moves us to
throw those darts!


The evil that lurks in MS could as easily lurk here or in any
corporation we intentionally set up.  It comes up inadvertently,
archetypically.

Somehow it means coming to terms with the Shadow.  Our shadow.  My
shadow.  Starting with this premise what an organisation we could
build  (discover)!




Walter

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Sat Apr 27 00:53:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Summary of the "Burning Shadows" Game (longish)
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:53:37 +0100

Walkter, Stephen, Psybernauts:

I promised I would post a "condensed" version of the WaterBird Game which
Stephen Calhoun and myself played on this list a while back, and here it
is.  I hope it will allow others to get a sense of the excitement which
Steven and I felt as the Game unfolded, by presenting the essence of our
Game in a *much* shorter and more concentrated format than that provided by
the 50 or so pages of the complete text...

Two players play this Game by alternately assigning ten "ideas" -- texts,
images, musics -- to the ten positions of the WaterBird board.  The purpose
is to choose these ten ideas as if one were selecting ten stones for a
Japanese sand garden, and to place them in such a way that one can meditate
on the ripples and eddies between them.

To get the sense of the Game as a whole, imagine these various ideas as
they are played in turn -- the "strange angels", the "peculiar people", the
sword, the poet's cry to an angel in the teeth of a gale, the awakening to
"burning shadows", the knife and wound and so forth -- as speaking to one
another, each one clarifying, echoing or denying the others which are
linked to it along the lines of the board.  Glimpse, if you will, not just
the ideas themselves, but those "ripples and eddies" between them...

*

Here, then, is the WaterBird board as it exists before the start of play...

[If the image below doesn't look like a neat square tipped up on one
corner, you are probably viewing it with a "variable spaced" typeface, and
need to convert it to a "monospaced" font such as Courier in your word
processor to see the form of the board clearly.  I recommend putting it
into Courier 10 point type, as 12 point is too wide for some screens.]


                       The WaterBird Board

                                4
                              * |**
                            *   | ***
                          *     |  ****
                        *       |   *****
                      *         |    ******
                    *           |     *******
                  *             |      ********
                2 --------------+-------------- 6
              * | **            |        *******| *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
  *             |             *************    *|             *
1 --------------+-------------- 8 ************* 9 ------------ 10
  *             |             **|*********     *|             *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
              * |               |        *******| *
                3 --------------+-------------- 7
                  *             |      ********
                    *           |     *******
                      *         |    ******
                        *       |   *****
                          *     |  ****
                            *   | ***
                              * |**
                                5


*

Assuming that you now have the board up and clearly visible, here's the
Game that Stephen and I  played...  This particular Game turned out to be a
highly evocative one, circling around the issue of consciousness on the one
hand, and the nature of the unconscious processes on the other -- processes
which have the power to turn a man into an angel or a beast...

*

Move One:

Stephen began the Game by playing in position 3 on the board:

:: No, no, it is the three strange angels
:: Admit them, Admit them."

This is taken from a longer poem by DH Lawrence, called "Song of a Man Who
Has Come Through".  The poem talks about "the wind that blows through me",
a wind which he hopes will carry him -- if he is keen and hard like the tip
of a wedge -- splitting "the rock" so that "the wonder" will be revealed.
And then he hears a knocking and is at first fearful -- then realizes "it
is the three angels"...

*

Move Two:

The first move in a WaterBird Game sets the initial tone, obviously, but it
can't *connect* with any other moves.  The player who goes second has a
choice: s/he can move in a position that doesn't connect with the first
move, and set a very different tone, or s/he can move into a position which
does connect with the first, and establish some kind of link with it.

Since I didn't recognize the poem, I was working only with the exact words
that Stephen had quoted, and decided to play "a peculiar people" in
position 2.

I mentioned to Stephen that the phrase comes from I Peter 2: 9:

:: But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation,
:: a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him
:: who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

and said that at one point in my life, this particular verse had come to
mean the "hippies" for me, because we were a indeed"generation" -- famous
for it, in fact -- and a strange kind of freelance "priesthood", a "nation"
in the sense of Woodstock Nation, and perhaps the most *peculiar* bunch of
people you could hope to meet...

So my move "a peculiar people" carries a direct echo of Stephen's "strange
angels".

*

Move Three:

Stephen's next move was an image rather than a text -- the Game is
fundamentally a multi-media Game, and moves can be visual, musical, textual
or numerical -- and specifically the image of a sword, which he placed
smack dab in the center of the board, in position 8.

*

Move Four:

I couldn't figure out a direct association between Stephen's "sword" and my
"peculiar people", although the "sword of discrimination" can separate
"darkness" from "light" -- but there is certainly at least one instance of
an angel carrying a sword -- the angel who guards the Garden of Eden in
Genesis has a fiery sword...

But by now, Stephen had posted the rest of the DH Lawrence poem on which
his first move was based, and Lawrence's phrase "Not I, not I, but the wind
that blows through me!" reminded me of another "poet's wind" -- wind being
a common metaphor for inspiration -- the storm wind that the poet Rilke
tells us was blowing around Castle Duino one day, and which seemed almost
to speak to him, giving him the first lines of his magnificent long poem
"The Duino Elegies":

:: Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels
:: hierarchies?

My move consisted of these two lines, but the poem continues:

::               and even if one of them pressed me
:: suddenly against his heart: I would be consumed
:: in that overwhelming existence. For beauty is nothing
:: but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure,
:: and we are so awed because it serenely disdains
:: to annihilate us. Every angel is terrifying.

This move, it seemed to me, fitted nicely in position 5, linking with
"sword" somewhat indirectly, since the angel which "serenely disdains to
annihilate us" sounds very like the angel with the fiery sword -- and it's
certainly a "strange" angel when compared with the cute cherubs we see on
cards at Valentine's Day.

But the most interesting part of the linkage here, it seems to me, is that
between Lawrence's "wind that blows through me" and the wind that was
blowing at Duino when Rilke wrote his lines.

*

Move five:

Stephen, meanwhile, had posted a variety of associations that were relevant
to his own moves -- some material on sword fighting, a comment on the links
between DH Lawrence's reference to the Hesperides, with its golden apples,
and the Garden of Eden, with its forbidden fruit, and so forth.  And he
confirmed my sense that the sword was a "sword of discrimination", quoting
a Jungian author, Edinger, and a Gnostic Gospel, the Gospel of Thomas, to
the effect that the metaphorical sword of developing consciousness is that
which cuts a child free of a too great reliance on family, and allows him
or her to become a distinct and individual "person" in their own right...

Stephen then played the phrase "I awake: I see burning shadows" in position 9.

Again, this seemed to me to be an evocative move.  Stephen's images, the
"strange angels", the "sword", the phrase "I awake: I see burning shadows",
all seem to have a peculiar intensity which I have tried to match with my
own moves -- it seems to me that it's this *intensity* which connects them
to the other positions on the board, not a particular set of logical
connections.

*

Move six:

And so I played... "knife and wound" in position 4.  The phrase comes from
the recently released film, Mary Reilly, a retelling of the Jekyll and Hyde
story.  Towards the end of the film,  Dr Jekyll says:

:: You see, I always wanted to be both the knife and the wound.

I think that's an incredibly powerful image in its own right, and it brings
a slightly different twist to the Game -- since "Dr Jekyll / Mr Hyde" is
about a split personality, one half of whom is a killer.

So the "knife" in this case, though still symbolic, is demonic rather than
angelic...

*

Move seven:

Steve responded with a song, "Aj ondas que eu vin veer", in position 7.  He
gave us the lyrics:

::        Waves that I came to see,
::        Ah waves say unto me

::        Why my lover lingers away from me?

::        O waves that ebb and swell,
::        Will you not to me tell

::        Why my lover lingers away from me?

and said that the troubador Martin Codax wrote this song in the 13th
century, telling us that the troubadors introduced "the feminine aspect"
into western culture by means of such songs -- as a sort of counterpoint to
the "masculine" brutality of the crusades -- giving rise to the "courtly
love" tradition which has influenced our understanding of the "feminine"
ever since...  See: Denis de Rougemont, *Love in the Western World*, for a
fuller explanation of how all this came about...

*

Move eight:

I played "niche of the lance" in position 1.

The phrase comes from Gerard Manley Hopkins's poem, "The Wreck of the
Deutschland".  Hopkins is writing about St. Francis, who reportedly
experienced the "stigmata" -- bearing in his own body the wounds of his
crucified Lord -- in the course of a vision in which he saw Christ carried
by a seraph:

          Joy fall to thee, Father Francis,
          drawn to the Life that died;
   With the gnarl of the nails in thee, niche of the lance, his
        Lovescape crucified
            and seal of his seraph-arrival!

This move links with "three strange angels" in 3, since a seraph is an
angel of high rank, with "a peculiar people" in  2, since both Hopkins and
Francis were members of religious orders, and  with the image of the
"sword" in 8.  Indirectly, it also reverberates with Rilke's "Every angel
is
terrifying" in 5 and with "knife and wound" in position 4, since the Christ
of the Last Supper and Crucifixion is both sacrificing priest and
sacrificial victim -- compare the full text of move six: "You see, I always
wanted to be both the knife and the wound"...

*

Move nine:

Steve then examined the various "triangles of ideas" which were now
configured on the board, noting the centrality of the image of the "sword",
and placed a picture of an "infant girl" in position 6.  He noted:

> She is climbing up, taking a step, but one foot is on the ground.

> I know this young lady. She is a daughter of close friends. She is
> very wise for her age. For our purposes, her name is Sophie.

*

Move ten:

Finally, I played "a heart's-clarion" in 10, from Hopkins' poem: "That
Nature is a Heraclitean Fire and of the Comfort of the Resurrection".

Hopkins has just described at some length how insignificant the human
individual is in the greater
sweep of things, whom "death blots black out; nor mark / Is any of him at
all so stark / But vastness blurs and time beats level."  Then, in a
commanding voice, "Enough!" he writes, "the Resurrection, / a heart's
clarion!"

The links claimed here are:

between Hopkins' phrase "world's wildfire, leave but ash" and Stephen's
"burning shadows" in 9...

between the song of the troubador, "Ah waves say unto me / Why my lover
lingers away from me" in 7, the cry surely of every questing soul, and
Hopkins' affirmation of the resurrection and thus the return or rediscovery
of the Beloved...

and between the child, Sophie, named after the gnostic embodiment of
salvific wisdom in 6, and the salvific wisdom of the resurrection body in
Hopkin's poem...  viewing the resurrection in question somewhat gnostically
as taking place in *this* heaven here now rather than *that* future
heaven...

together with an echo of the quotation from Hopkins' poem "Wreck of the
Deutschland" at one end of the board in 1 with this quote from Hopkins in
10, to give a sense of completion to the game as a whole with this final
move.

*

This brings the Game to a close, and we can now view the completed board
pictured here (again, if your mail reader doesn't use a monospaced
"typewriter" font such as Courier, you will need to switch to a font of
this kind to see the board clearly):


                          knife and wound
                                4
                              * |**
                            *   | ***
                          *     |  ****
                        *       |   *****
                      *         |    ******
                    *           |     *******
        peculiar people         |      ***** sophie
                2 --------------+-------------- 6
              * | **            |        *******| *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
niche of        |             [sword]*****  I awake: I see    a heart's
1 --------------+-------------- 8 ------------- 9 ------------10
the lance       |             **|******    burning shadows,   clarion
    *           |           ****|*******      **|           *
      *         |         ******|***         ***|         *
        *       |       ********|           ****|       *
          *     |     ******    |          *****|     *
            *   |   ****        |         ******|   *
      three strange angels      |    my lover lingers away from me
                3 --------------+-------------- 7
                  *             |      ********
                    *           |     *******
                      *         |    ******
                        *       |   *****
                          *     |  ****
                            *   | ***
                       who...would hear me?
                                5


As I mentioned above, the trick to understanding the Game is to hold the
various ideas together in the mind's eye -- particularly those ideas which
are "linked" along the lines of the board -- in such a way that they "play
off" one another...  It is the harmony and counterpoint *between* ideas,
rather than the ideas themselves, which is the real "meat" of the Game...

*

I'd like to thank Walter once again for the hospitality he provided on-list
for this Game, and Steve once again both for playing the Game with me, and
for the very intuitive way in which he played it.

I would like to refer those of you who may be interested to the much longer
and more detailed version of this Game to be found at Steve's web site,
beginning at:

>>>   http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG1.html

and also to the dazzling color version of the final board which he put up at:

>>>   http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/PLG_GameREG5.html

Those interested to learn more about the Games in general, or to print
boards to play a round on, are likewise invited to go to my own web pages
at:

Finally, as a "historical" footnote, I'd like to say that of the fifteen or
so Games that have now been played on four lists -- and the ten or so
others played by private e-mail -- this was the first Game in which visual
and musical moves were posted as such, in digital form, rather than being
simply  "named" to their respective positions.

Thus when Steve played "my lover lingers away from me" in position 7, he
also posted the song itself, as a 1.1mb sound file, and his "sword" image
in position 8 was posted as an image file, as was the picture of Sophie in
position 6.

These were all "firsts" from my point of view as the Game Designer, and I'm
very appreciative of Stephen's diligence in playing the Game this way,
because it brings the whole project much closer to the web-based
multi-media artform which I conceive it can be...

*

Best wishes,




--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sat Apr 27 01:15:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: dragons
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:15:06 -0400

Hello, friends.

I have been very moved by the deep sharing on the list this week --
especially Steven and Susan.  My life requires my attention right now, so my
voice may be silent for a while, but I wanted to share some words that that
have brought me comfort.

<<How should we be able to forget those ancient myths that are at the
beginning of all peoples, the myths about dragons that at the last moment
turn into princesses; perhaps all the dragons of our lives are princesses who
are only waiting to see us once beautiful and brave.  Perhaps everything
terrible is in its deepest being something helpless that wants help from us.

<<So you must not be frightened, if a darkness rises up before you larger
than any you have ever seen; if a restiveness, like light and cloud-shadows,
passes over your hands and over all you do.  You must think that something is
happening with you, that life has not forgotten you, that it holds you in its
hand; it will not let you fall....

                                                                 Rainer Maria
Rilke

Be well....

Marie

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From judithb@sbc1.com Sat Apr 27 01:17:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: element of synchronicity
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:17:42 GMT

Mila, in answer to your question, as best I can in my body knowing of
synchronicity, keeping in mind hard to use words to speak of the felt sense
for me
plus I know that Jung spoke of synchronicity and I have never read his idea
of it BTW
<Judith to Walter, among other things, most of which I agree with:
>>>
As as aside or the point here, I find the element of synchronicity which
occurs in cyberspace the reason for my continued engagement.
<<<
Sync in which sense ??
If it's short response time, then please enjoy being embedded in the vast
American e-mail community, in which local times differ at most by some hours.
Here in Europe, we've got to live with a time difference of 8 hrs from, say,
Ohio; so there must be other motives for us to engage,
As I happen to write on e-mail immediacy models, I'd like to read about the
meaning of the word 'synchronicity' in *your* context.

All the best,
Mila>
First, a small background piece. The driving question since a child has been
how the external is created, or in another sense which was not a word I had
available at the time, how things manifest. In the yogic tradition there is
the story of the 3 stages of manifestation. Stage one you want an apple and
you find an apple tree and an apple and you take the seeds and plant them and
in 7 years you get your apple. Stage two you want an apple and you go to the
market and buy the apple. Stage three is you want an apple and you hold out
your hand and it arrives instantly in your palm.
Now the context of my comments and I feel it necessary to say this is how I
live my reality which doesn't mean it is how others do or do I make any
judgment as to the validity of my experience or any generalized application.
I'm on this earth playing, deeply, but playing none the less. So here goes as
best as I can...
 I live from an internal to the external to the internal dynamic, each
feeding the other thru the system of energy which is at the basic level
vibration. In this way of framing then there is an harmonic resonance  which
I suppose you could use the word affinity, me in harmonydissonance, with the
inner level. As a metaphor I think of the internet as an externalized
manifestation of what is going on at the inner level. I also view the
universe as a cooperativeopportunistic event, in the organic sense which does
not cast judgement on the dynamic. I do not attribute any judgemental aspect
to the words cooperative and opportunistic in a sense of good or bad. These
words are descriptors but not in a psychological attribution. My work is
informed by physicists like David Peat, the biologist Rupert Sheldrak, Frij
Capra, Brian Goodwin, Prigogine etc to further put my comments in context. I
have not studied psychology though I know it in a sense. I also am engaged as
a healer, tho not hands on, where I come from more of a Chinese medicine and
chakra perspective and use energy as the basis of my work.

This said, when I say synchronicity I am using it in the context of the deep
cooperative event of the universe and that means the cooperation happens
thru resonance which is an effect of vibration. I suppose you could use a
tuning fork as a metaphor. At the deepest level there is an intention as well
as the intention(s) we hold as individuals. I think of myself as a
receivertransmitter of vibration fromto this inner space. I then receive
according to my attunement. I am vibration and the universe is vibration and
the inner action sets up conditions for harmonydissonance. If my tuning fork
is vibrating at C then I will receive C and the overtones of C and when I run
into D there is a dissonanceresolution aspect and I retune my transmitter.
Now the internet to me then is this externalization which I often call the
innernet or when I'm playing I call it the Inner Communication Network. the
Internet to me is a manifestation of the internal. As an aside, in my early
work in computers in the 60's it struck me how the computer was a sort of
externalization of how a brain ala the 60s view *worked* and that man was
exploring how the brain worked. I learned to program with a memory dump and a
hardware manual BTW

Now the only way I can get to my idea of synchronicity is to use my
experience. In a surface sort of idea it's when you're thinking of someone
you need to ask a question and that person shows up at the supermarket at
exactly the time you get there. Kind of a cosmic outcome of holding an
intention and the resonancecooperation aspect attunes and the person picked
up the intention and shows up.Often when people ask me what I do I say I show
up. What this means to me here in cyberspace, also keeping in mind that I see
space not in terms of distance or time but in a sense of the internal pot of
vibration, sorry for my crude explanation. The Mayans speak of the matrix.So
getting back to manifestation. If I hold as intention manifestation of
something I want, I set up a resonance which then is out there in the
spacetime and others will resonate or not resonate to it. To the degree that
I hold open to receiving, keeping my transmitter scanning, and to the degree
I am open to the multiplicity of probabilities, the opportunity for my
intention to manifest is leveraged. In cyberspace, I now am connected to the
vastness of resonanceprobabilities and as I engage with intention and we have
multiple intentions at all times, people receive thru the inner space and
synchronize in this outer space and intentions, conscious or unconscious
manifest.This is why I don't *believe* in inadvertant actions, just not
conscious actions.

It's sort of the mystical made practical. I hold the belief that we are all
here to assist each other to evolve or in another senes to grow soul and the
bumping into each other in the external world is merely the work that is
going on. The efficiency of the system or the productivity depends in some
part to one's ability to be open and hold a clear intention.
 So a person in NZ writes a poem from his intention and it informs my
intention, he not being consciously aware that he is informing *me* although
in some sense the impetus to share the poem might have some intuitive knowing
to it as in he might not know why he's sharing this poem but he feels
compelled for some reason. In this scenario I *find* the inform-ation. It is
my view that the more we listen to these inner level sensings, the more the
inner cooperative event is manifested in the external. My experience in the
Internet is that every time I tune in on the internet there is a
synchronicitic event which happens for me. Often it is instantaneous. I have
an intention, turn on my computer and the answer or assistance pops onto my
screen. At other times I have experienced having an intention become
conscious and I had already received the data daysmonths before which is
exactly the piece I need which in another sense was there all along I just
wasn't *ready* to receive it.

To the degree that I can hold the model and to the degree I can keep my
receivertransmitter open and to the degree I can keep *me* from interfering
with the process thru static creation, is the degree to which I can
manifestfulfill my intention. The internet then is a very practical tool
because it leverages the probabilities of me receiving and extends my ability
to transmit directly.

In the end for me it's all happening at the inner level anyhow in the framing
I hold.The internet is just us consciously creating in the external what is
already going on. This way we just see it. when one looks at the internet
from a perspective of self-organizing systems, and chaos theory, complexity
theory, dissipative systems, etc. the internet is giving us a direct
experience of the internal view which is coming into the main stream from
fringe scienctists, ie: David Peat's Turbulant Mirror and The Philosophers
Stone, Rupert Sheldrak's morphogenic fields, for instance, which is
disconcerting to the western mind because for a few hundred years we have
been laboring under the mechanistic as the superordinate model. And then we
fight over whether it is mechanistic or organic, thru our duelisticdualistic
natures.
Well, I've blabbed on but as I stated at the beginning it is hard for me as a
kinesthetic to describe my experience and how I *work*  and *know* things.
But I've lived my life as a fun scientific experiment testing hyphotheses and
acting as if always trying to have that apple manifest in the palm of my hand
<g>. It's a wonder to me to live!

regards,
Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat Apr 27 01:40:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: masked ball
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:40:32 GMT

Marie and all,

>  Might this be an occasional event -- or ongoing?  I would not like to see
> the list move too far away from where it is now; I am just learning to be at
> home here.

Yes, let us settle in.

The words "masked ball" (what is the mask, what is the face?) seem to
reflect the focus of our gathering at this point.  I may have done
better to mention only the words rather than a project, it comes from
my penchant for us to write about what we know from experience.  That
is certainly happening now.  Containing all that we are doing, here
and now, in this list is important and I would not move a way from
that, or create a fuzziness of boundaries in Psyber-L as a holding
place.

For all that this list remains a starting point to other Psyber
activities.  Occasional events.  I think the time and way to do that
will *emerge*.  One of the events in the making, and has been worked
on quietly in this list since before Christmas last year is the Dream
Game.  It will happen. I want that to build our project not dissipate
it.  I think that can be done.


While on this most wonderful theme of what is true love and what is
real:

The zen master tells the student:

If you say this stick is real, I will hit you with it.
If you say this stick is not real, I will hit you with it.


While browsing the archives looking for the start of our dream game
discussions, I found a poem from Charles that might serve as an answer
to the koan:


:: I'm not sure how much of this is Rumi, but it started from a verse
:: of his in Arberry or Nicholson, and I worked it a bit:


::        I am a bird of the garden beyond time,
::        locked for a moment into this cage of ribs.


My more prosaic answer might be:  It is a stick!


Walter

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 27 02:17:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Wilber..jung..love etc etc etc
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:17:46 -0400

At 12:56 AM 4/26/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>>But it's not "real" it's not something that can be ultimatly fullfilling, as
>>you haven't come to realize yet.  Love?  Is it love when you don't know the
>>face of the other person?  Is it love when you are limited to about 20 wpm
>>on an IRC?  Is it "Love" when you can't even control the font that the other
>>person sees?  Is it "Love" when the only mechanism of communcation is type
>>written text on a computer screen?  I vote no!
>
>Course its love Wilbur.. define love for me before you start deciding
>whether or not in can exist in an electronicly enhanced enviroment.

Love doesn't demand that I get to the point where I am putting myself at
risk.  If I have to sacrifice some part of myself, or it messes up some part
of myself, then it's not love.  In order to love another, it somehow has to
fit in with loving myself.  If I can't love myself when I'm doing it, then
it's not love, it something else.

>
>>Sure, the fantasy can appear real, but it's just a fantasy, take phone sex
>>as an example.  Addicting, yes.. but ultimatly fulfilling, no!  Can you make
>>a child from Netsex?  Can you really come to understand the other individual
>>as you would if you live with them?  No!  It's an interesting diversion, and
>>depending on your ability to immerse yourself in typing, may indeed seem
>>real, but it's not as real as a face to face relationship.  It's not as real
>>as making a child with someone.  It's not as real as "Real Life".
>
>Wilbur..I'd really hate to accuse you of confusing sex with love here. Can
>you understand the other individual as you would if you live with them.

>Yes..more so even.

No, that's a fantasy.  You don't understand someone via traded email better
than you would face to face.  I challendge you to take the bull by the horns
and use the additional bandwidth that you have and meet someone face to
face, complete with all that life has to offer, not limited by your typing
speed.

>Any idiot can make a child mores the pity..love isnt
>always involved in that act either.

But the act of love is the coming together with another soul in a way that
creates something new.  What is the creation in Cyberspace other than a few
KB in an archive?  Words sometimes ring even more hollow in Cyberspace than
they do in real life.  I agree that there is a sense of connectedness, but
it's entirely based on words, and it takes more than words to make love.

>>But you are, in a sense, already doing that.  You claim that you have no
>>control over how your dark side crosses the lines, but indeed, you are on
>>the only one in control.  No one else has the control.
>>
>>>On the other hand, I do not wish to hurt anyone, including my cyberpartner
>>>and soulmate.
>>
>>Is the soulmate the one that you are married to?  If not, then you are
>>decieving yourself and not living up to the vows that you probably made when
>>you got married.
>
>Why decieving himself?

Your soul isn't something divorced from your body.  You made a vow when you
got married probably along the line of "forsaking all others, keeping
yourself.." yet you aren't forsaking another online.  A marriage isn't about
nice and easy.  Getting the courage up to deal with the inner demons isn't
always easy, but without that effort, the life that you end up with in a
marriage isn't anything but empty.  So in a sense, getting involved in an
untimatly unfullfilling relationship, that will never create a total
soulmate, is a form of deceit.

On the other hand, once the deceit of a cyber relationship is discovered,
that doesn't reduce the reality of the cyber relationship, it just points
out that there is more available in a real relationship than you had ever
dreamed.  It's just a matter of getting to the point where you can reach out
and express those parts that were previously hidden in a forum that isn't
limited by typing speed and data communcations..   ie. being able to express
your feelings with another person.  Perhap's it's a blessing that this forum
exists so that feelings can come to the surface that remain hidden when not
worked out in the self-discovery of writing, but those idea's or parts of
self can be expressed in real life also, it's scarier, but also more real.

>>
>>>I suspect that whatever happens will be painful for me...
>>
>>I suspect that you are already in pain, and will probably experience some
>more..
>>
>>I suspect Wilbur your right
>>
>>Steven,
>>
>>I'm sorry that what I say may seem harsh, (actually, more accuratly, what I
>>type..) but the emotional truth is that you have an involvement with a woman
>>outside your marriage, and that is something that you'll have to deal with
>>at some point, or your marriage will fail.  It's quite possible that your
>>marriage is already failing, but it's also quite possible that you are
>>avoiding your personal responsibilties to your marriage and using NetSex as
>>a temporary drug/replacement for those things that you aren't getting out of
>>your marriage.
>
>I dont remember him citing netsex as the motivating force behind the
>relationship Wilbur.
>Any relationship based soley on sex/netsex is doomed to failure eventually.

That's my point..

>
>>
>>Ultimately, however the question and the truth boils down to this question,
>>how fulfilled as a man will you be if you don't have real sex and just have
>>cyber sex?  If the answer is that you would be unfulfilled with a steady
>>diet of cyber sex only, then CyberSex isn't real.
>
>Again, your basing your hypothesises on his relationship being only carnal
>in nature.
>I suspect Wilbur your short of a few romantic bones.

Nope..  I have plenty of romantic bones.. but there is enough of a romantic
in me to realize that by keeping my cyber bone in my pants I'm protecting
myself and my (lets call them more) real relationships from deceits that I
would feel ashamed admitting.

>Throughout history love has been glorified in text..with the written word.
We >create words from love..why not love from words.

Because it isn't a complete expression of life.

Life is more than words.

The best expression of life is living it.


Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat Apr 27 02:28:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: love, etc.
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:28:15 -0400

Perhaps if Love is in the eye of the beholder, so is the concept of love.
Why not? That said, for my self and in my own experience, to Love another
person absolutely demands a terrible/wonderful (even glorious,) sacrifice.

>If I have to sacrifice some part of myself, or it messes up some part
>of myself, then it's not love.

I would go farther, (and may later :) .. ) but for now, some Rumi, ra,
courtesy of Coleman Barks.

***

Gamble everything for love,
if you're a true human being.

If not, leave
this gathering.

Half-heartedness doesn't reach
into majesty. You set out
to find God, but then you keep
stopping for long periods
at mean-spirited roadhouses.

***

Are some searching for greater majesty on-line?

Why not?


HooN






                                     \\\|///
                                   \\  ~ ~  //
                                    (  @ @  )
                    --------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
                   |                                          |
                   |            Stephen Calhoun               |
                   |              hoon@apk.net                |
                   |       http://junior.apk.net/~hoon        |
                   |                                          |
                    ----------------------Oooo.---------------
                                .oooO     (   )
                                (   )      ) /
                                 \ (      (_/
                                  \_)

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 27 02:39:47 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 08:39:47 -0600

Marie,
I found your reference to Yalom interesting.  But how does the net serve
as a microcosm of society when only a small portion of communication
(content) is present?  Most of communication is non-verbal, and that
doesn't come through on the net.  That's why I find the term "intimacy"
incongruent with net discourse: there is so much of the communication
missing.
Barbara

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 27 02:48:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber-Love, Synchronicity etc.
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:48:08 -0400

<a lot of excellent stuff - snipped>

I feel that much of the 'mainstream' information we are bombarded with by
>the media is designed purposely to produce negative feelings  - in effect,
>mental and emotional rape. I dont watch the news last thing at night [on
>the advice of Louise Hay], since it just seems to be a list of disasters;

Ah yes, the lies that keep us together.. for the sake of our institutions..
the government to protect us from crime, the hospitals to make it all
better, etc..  But what does the instituion have to do with us as
individuals?  Why do they have to right to dominate our lives in almost all
media forms?

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat Apr 27 03:06:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: text
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:06:06 -0400

Saying that something is merely "text", even making it into a perjoration,
misses the point of words-language-meaning-metaphor.

How metaphor connects with each of us is an experiential journey, and this
journey starts before the word is first met. ...er, IMO.

It can't be explained or justified. Words resonate deeply not because they
mean this and that but because persons mean this or that.

***

HooN

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat Apr 27 03:06:56 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Cyber-Love
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:06:56 -0400

Seems odd one might question another's experience of Love...(not that this
isn't done all the time.)

I feel Love is possible in this medium and it trivializes matters to reduce
it by suggesting it cannot be transmitted through words. After all the
transmitter is the human Heart, and there is ample evidence its subtle
expression may be carried within the *word seed*.

(And, the explicit recognition of solitude -easier on-line- necessary to
the bridge-building and servitude demanded by some stations of Love, is no
less a requirement in F2F relationships. A humbling thought, at least to
me!)

***

If you don't get it, you'll just have to fall in love on-line. And if you
never fall in love on-line, you *really* will not have much of interest to
say about it.

***

Laurel, others, have been there. Her pulse has quickened. Her soul has
become more intense and glorious as a result. (I sense.)

My reaction?

Awe.

***

HooN

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat Apr 27 03:07:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: element of synchronicity
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:07:58 -0400

Jb, Psyberians,

"The irrationality of events is shown in what we call chance, which we are
obviously compelled to deny, because we cannot in principle think of any
process that is not causal and necessary, whence it follows from that it
cannot happen by chance. In practice, however, chance reigns everywhere,
and so obtrusively that we might as well put out causal philosophy in our
pocket. The plenitude of life is governed by law and yet not governed by
law, rational and yet irrational. Hence reason  and the will that is
grounded in reason are valid only up to a point. The further we go in the
direction selected by reason, the surer we may be that we are excluding the
irrational possibilities of life which have just as much right to be lived.
It was indeed highly expedient for man to become somewhat more capable of
directing his life. It may justly be maintained that the acquisition of
reason is the greatest achievement of humanity; but that is not to say that
things must or always will continue in that direction."

C.G.Jung, CW 7:72

***

(I'm quote happy today because, Jung sez it better than I ever will!)

So, besides being an "acausal connecting" principle one might play with
synchronicity as ordinate with respect to "random causal" made meaningful
via our intuition or "irrational reason" (!).

A more subtle level is perennial: signification. (And by qualifying it as
perennial I'm detaching it from modern semiotics.)

What do I mean?

***

By being open and "reading" the heavensent signs we evolve into Lovers.

***


HooN

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat Apr 27 03:31:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:31:02 -0400

Barbara writes:

>Most of communication is non-verbal, and that
>doesn't come through on the net.  That's why I find the term "intimacy"
>incongruent with net discourse: there is so much of the communication
>missing.

Perhaps it might be better to say:

*Research has demonstrated that* most of communication is non-verbal.

***

This is relative to the actual circumstance. Think of how blind, deaf, and
dumb people communicate.

Is it like making lemonade from the lemons you *actually* have?

What would be a test of intimacy?

Is it a fact that most of on-line communication is textual?

Are we playing with desicated norms in stating that "most of communication
is ____ "


***

My own thoughts were partially expressed in a story posted several weeks
ago. I'm posting it again. This is an 'archetypal' story, or a 'teaching
story' (excuse me in advance!) thus it has numerous levels of explication.
Pertinent to this discussion is an image:

wandering around in a world different from the world that that world is
imbedded within...

To persons not on-line, persons 'frozen', unseeing of this world, we are
invisible...

Yet, in this invisible world we bring the larger world in pieces (perhaps)
with us.

There is Cyberspace and then there is Cyberspace...

HooN

***


>A story.
>
>I was with my teacher in a group totalling he and the four pitiful students
>that we were! On a bright Monday morning in May we all went for a walk. The
>place is New Orleans. It is very early and not too hot and surprisingly not
>humid. We are all washed and clean and fresh. Because we are students we
>understand our very opennesss is to be challenged.
>
>Our teacher is good at this, very good.
>
>We happen into the lobby of a large downtown hotel. It is empty except for
>a young gentleman at the front desk who is chatting with a janitor. We
>aren't a strange looking group really, but with one nod of the head from
>our teacher, the man at the desk is put at ease.
>
>Our group moves toward the doorway of the coffee shop to our left. We are
>very quiet. Leading the way, our teacher opens the doorway and takes one
>step into the coffee shop. There are twelve people enjoying the morning,
>some coffee, and some food. They look up and are met with a short sweep of
>our teacher's hand.
>
>Suddenly all twelve are frozen. In mid sip, in mid bite, in mid word, in
>mid thought, in mid breath.
>
>We all step into the coffee shop. Silently our teacher beckons us to
>explore. We walk up to some of the paralyzed persons. Their chests neither
>rise nor fall.Their eyes do not blink. Yet, they are warm and full of life.
>
>The door opens and a young man, perhaps a truck driver in his uniform,
>steps in and is immediatly himself frozen several steps into the coffee
>shop.
>
>Our teacher gestures for us to have a look behind the counter. Standing
>around him we note the water faucet is on but it too is frozen, a single
>stream pouring into a pitcher the counterman is holding-but it does not
>fill up.
>
>Silently we all then look up and our teacher's eyes wait for each of us:
>brown, deep, timeless.
>
>A moment later he, with a nod of the head, indicates we are to leave.
>Stepping by the man in the doorway we leave with our teacher trailing. As
>he steps through the doorway he turns and with a matching wave of his hand
>the coffee shop returns to its activity, chests begin again to rise and
>fall. Eyes see. It is as it was.
>
>Soon we are back on the sidewalk laughing in amazement. Our teacher answers
>our questioning looks with the following:
>
>"There is space and then there is space; there is time and then there is time."
>
>***
>
>There is cyberspace and then there is cyberspace. Perhaps our catagories
>are not adequate.
>
>Stephen

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 27 03:49:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: love, etc.
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:49:05 -0400

>Perhaps if Love is in the eye of the beholder, so is the concept of love.
>Why not? That said, for my self and in my own experience, to Love another
>person absolutely demands a terrible/wonderful (even glorious,) sacrifice.

Sacrifice for the sake of love?  What a bit of utter nonsense..  Makes for
good fairy tales, but doesn't have much to do with love.  You claim that
love is in the eye of the beholder, then attempt to push your own perception
as an absolute reality, as if there is something noble/better about love the
requires sacrifice.

I grew up with the "We sacrificed everything for you" line, which was in
turn used as a justification for all sorts of abuses..  I didn't ask for a
sacrifice, and love doesn't require it.  If you can't see how to live life
without sacrifice, that's your problem, but it's not love.

I love myself and my partner enough to be able to live life without
sacrifice.  If you love yourself, then you can love another.  If you don't
think enough of yourself to love yourself, then what do you have to offer
another?

Idealizing life is more important then trying to live an ideal.

Wilbur

---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 27 03:49:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: text
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:49:08 -0400

At 11:06 AM 4/26/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Saying that something is merely "text", even making it into a perjoration,
>misses the point of words-language-meaning-metaphor.
>

I chose text specifically for that reason..  I wished to avoid the
words-language-meaning-metaphor.  (Check out the Seal song about "Why must
we dream in Metaphor"

>How metaphor connects with each of us is an experiential journey, and this
>journey starts before the word is first met. ...er, IMO.

But everyone experiences life differently.. I also knew what life was before
words meant anything.

>
>It can't be explained or justified. Words resonate deeply not because they
>mean this and that but because persons mean this or that.

Have to disagree with you there.. words only mean what the "eye of the
beholder" thinks that they mean.  They only mean what we perceive them to
mean, not what they speaker intends them to mean.  Words are only sounds
that we have come to assign meaning to, not meanings in and of themselves.
The resonance is not from the speaker, but from the internal mechanisms that
we have humans have assigned to our way of understanding them.

I have this wonderful game that I can play with my mouth.  I can make these
sounds that seem to make sense, but they don't make any sense at all,
because they are just sounds.  All of a sudden I realize that they aren't
sounds, they're words, but then again, they aren't really making any sense
after all.  But then they seem to make wonderful sense, because they are
something that means more than the words, perhaps it's all of the people
that have come before me, that have found voice in my words, perhaps it's
even, gasp, God speaking, but then again, they are just words, and just
sounds, and after all, it's just a silly little game that I've learned how
to play with my mouth.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 27 03:49:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber-Love
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:49:11 -0400

At 11:06 AM 4/26/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Seems odd one might question another's experience of Love...(not that this
>isn't done all the time.)
>
>I feel Love is possible in this medium and it trivializes matters to reduce
>it by suggesting it cannot be transmitted through words. After all the
>transmitter is the human Heart, and there is ample evidence its subtle
>expression may be carried within the *word seed*.

Perhaps, but I notice that you didn't say "full expression"..
---------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat Apr 27 04:02:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: love, etc.
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:02:09 -0400

Wilbur writes:

>Sacrifice for the sake of love?  What a bit of utter nonsense..

Wilbur, are you saying this is true for you in your experience, or, that my
experience of sacrifice for the sake of love is "utter nonsense"?

>good fairy tales, but doesn't have much to do with love.  You claim that
>love is in the eye of the beholder, then attempt to push your own perception
>as an absolute reality, as if there is something noble/better about love the
>requires sacrifice.

For me, Love requires my sacrifice; in  fact, FOR ME: it requires my servitude.

>
>I grew up with the "We sacrificed everything for you" line, which was in
>turn used as a justification for all sorts of abuses..  I didn't ask for a
>sacrifice, and love doesn't require it.  If you can't see how to live life
>without sacrifice, that's your problem, but it's not love.

I can't see how to live life without sacrifice. Now it is true that up
until my mid-life crisis I tried!

Anyway, Wilbur, you may wish to edify me as to how you have accomplished
this, and I'll consider if is perhaps possible that I too could follow your
path.

(BTW, you'd have to ask the people whom *I* love if they're abused. My
greatest abuses occurred when i was most unwilling to sacrifice anything
*for the sake of Love*, but that's only MY EXPERIENCE.))

***

But I never was very specific about what it is that I intend and choose to
be sacrificed both through Love, from Love, to Love.

Was I?

***

Could it be the, some of the, a few, (a single) illusions about who I am?

***

HooN

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat Apr 27 04:07:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber-Love
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:07:38 -0400

>Perhaps, but I notice that you didn't say "full expression"..

So?

Is that your point?

I feel the FULL expression of a person's love for me *absolutely in the
here and now* and that person has been dead for over seven hundred years.

Go figure.

***

HooN

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 27 04:57:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Mid-life crisis
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:57:02 -0600

Robert,
my question had more to do with curiousity than personal interest.  I am
getting an MA in Counseling and couples work is very interesting to me.
I am happily married for the last three years, but have spent a great
deal of time in failed relationships and think that I have learned alot
about intimate relationships and what makes them work.

so my interest is mainly to see if I can be of any help.  I think that
the process that you describe is very much the norm in the development of
marriages.  My husband has been married before, for 20 years, to a woman
he married to take care of.  They had two children, the older child he
developed a close relationship with, and when she left, he had no more
companion, and felt his lonliness.  He and his ex-wife had developed
parallel lives, rather than adapting to roles in the marriage.  After his
daughter left for college, he met me, and the rest is history.

I think that few people, particularly men, leave a relationship unless
they have someone else to go to.  It's too scary, especially after many
years together.  And then that new person usually does not turn out to be
a potential mate, but it was a way for the person to get out of the
relationship.

So, all this leads to my definition of intimacy...that you are able to be
who you are in the relationship and still be accepted and loved.  That
means, no role-playing.  So let me  ask you this..if you stopped playing
your roles, and became who you really are, would your wife still love and
accept you?  Would you still love and accept her?  Is she also in a
role?  What if you both took off your masks, what would happen?  If you
stopped your role-playing, would she leave you?  If I were you (and this
isn't advice, just sharing my experience), I would try dropping my roles
and see what happened to the relationship (letting your wife know what is
going on, of course).  If the relationship is strong, it will survive,
and even thrive, because you will experience intimacy for perhaps the
first time.
Barbara

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat Apr 27 05:00:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: text
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:00:37 -0400

I think it is safe to say, Wilbur, that you TOTALLY misunderstood me. Which
is neat, since we are discussing: meaning.

I wrote:
>>How metaphor connects with each of us is an experiential journey, and this
>>journey starts before the word is first met. ...er, IMO.
>
>But everyone experiences life differently.. I also knew what life was before
>words meant anything.
>

Ooops. I didn't intend to mean <g> before the *first* word is first met. I
do mean that both our subjective, intersubjective, and private
understandings of what a word means is informed by our (different)
experience. This understanding is informed also by our shared experience
too, among other shared aspects.

We understand what confusion means or misunderstanding means by being
confused and misunderstanding, (or being misunderstood,) and we might even
say that there are meanings of words which can't be explained by words but
can be expressed by words.

Help.

>>
>>It can't be explained or justified. Words resonate deeply not because they
>>mean this and that but because persons mean this or that.

Wilbur replied:
>
>Have to disagree with you there.. words only mean what the "eye of the
>beholder" thinks that they mean.

I wrote: "because persons mean this or that," So I feel it's a two-way
street. We differ; my experience is that I can clearly express myself so
that another person can behold my "words" and understand not only what they
mean but what my intention is, was. I agree with the linguist George
Lakaff: this is not at all merely a matter of unpacking the normative
"meaning" of a word, or having the transmitter pack the 'meaning' and the
receiver unpack it.

The intersubjective functioning necessary to successful communication must,
IMO, concern how it is we are able to communicate using language, at ALL.
If someone has the intention not to understand what a word means, they
probably won't understand, even if what is being transmitted is simple,
'self-evident', and logically coherent: "the sky is blue,".

(Likewise, if words only mean what the >>eye of the beholder thinks that
they mean<< then it follows logically that communication breakdowns will
proceed quite quickly from what the beholder thinks given, and for example,
that if you think Love means one thing and I think Love means another, then
we are talking about two different "Love(s)"; yes? Not that this prevents
our talking about Love from being a meaningful conversation! <g> )

Is textual communication is more complex than reductionist theories of
normative semantics or (Wilbur's) "beholder" theory?

***

>mean, not what they speaker intends them to mean.  Words are only sounds
>that we have come to assign meaning to, not meanings in and of themselves.

Exactly. "Words resonate deeply not because they mean this and that but
because persons mean this or that"

>The resonance is not from the speaker, but from the internal mechanisms that
>we have humans have assigned to our way of understanding them.

So how is it that what I intend to make meaningful using words can be
understood by you? At all? Where does the ripple start?

***

And, can we prove anything about meaning one way or the other?



HooN

-------------------------------------------
confusing a everything face on Putting  ;-0
-------------------------------------------

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sat Apr 27 05:17:57 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Love on a different plane..
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:17:57 +0100

Stephen, Wilbur, my hidden cyberlove..

Seems odd one might question another's experience of Love...(not that this
isn't done all the time.)

Love is so personal. So varied so intense. Nobody will understand how I felt
when I lost my dog unless they too have felt that sort of love. You cannot
empathise with all the various types of love until you too have been there
and felt it in its entirety.
Is the love I felt for my dog not valid because he was a dog? Only another
dog owner would understand. I have cried less at the death of some of my
relatives than I did when he went. He took part of my life with him when he
died. Course thats not love is it..after all he was only a dog.


Wilbur.. I dont have time to concoct a long reply till later to the other
email...but I have to say to you
a) Im not talking about an email relationship. Im talking an irc
relationship built up over many months and many many hours.

b)Dont knock it till you've tried it.

And if your soul hasnt soared here then it was with the wrong person anyway.

Im not going to be decietfull about the person I love here. Because I have
nothing to be ashamed of. Even my husband saw the intensity of the
relationship and the changes it had on me as a person. He welcomed those
changes, unfortunatly what killed us was the fact that he had been unable to
effect them himself.

This place is special..it does have a magic. If you cant see the magic its
because you have lost a sense of wonder, that everything needs
rationalisation and dissection. (typical programmer) Sometimes the most
wonderfull thing you can do is forget all that you know is possible and to
dive into the impossible and just go with the flow.
I also think age has a great deal to do with our perception and
understanding of love.
Life experience changes us dramatically..we are more sure of what it is we
really want as we grow older, and what it is that we do not want. Our
idealisation of love changes with the decades..our expectations of love
change accordingly.

This place has something that I believe we are yet to discover and that is
ourselves and the ability to love and to know other human beings in a way
that just doesnt exist outside of cyberspace, but which we will learn to
translate into our real lives.
This place is a healing place and also a force for destruction. I for one
will take the good and stomp on the bad. I have seen both and I am afraid of
neither now.


>If you don't get it, you'll just have to fall in love on-line. And if you
>never fall in love on-line, you *really* will not have much of interest to
>say about it.
>

Ask a pigeon how it sees the sky, and it will tell you the sky is blue and
the sun shines brightly in it, ask an owl how it sees the sky and it will
tell you it is black and alive with stars. A pigeon will never know the owls
sky. Yet they both see the same sky but from different viewpoints. Neither
of them is wrong, because they *only* see their own perspectives of their
time in the sky.

>I started writing poetry again because of my life online..and I wrote this
which is my favorite because it comes from within as a warning to myself as
much as to the person I wrote it for...Love somebody once told me is the
ability to makeyourself vulnerable..and that to me is what love is all
about..especially cyberlove because you know that one day it will turn
around and rip the heart from you. You given yourself completely to somebody
and made yourself forever vulnerable.

Love in real life gave me a daughter and I love that daughter. It was that
love that illusion..far more so than the love I got here.  The love that
made her was selfish and demanded control.. it couldnt survive change. Love
in cyberspace gave me myself and the ability to change and I like who I
rediscovered myself to be with somebody who believed in what I was.

I wouldnt swap what I gained for what I lost if I could turn back time and
stop my husband as he walked out of the door.

Cyber love

I would touch you,
And in that desired caress,
I will place a million images
And carve each with my visions
I would hold you,
And in that vaguest touch
I would explode a million promises,
Shattering the place where you existed
I would kiss you,
And I will scythe your reality.
And I will have the heart and soul from you
Till love lies bleeding from a word.


>
>Laurel, others, have been there. Her pulse has quickened. Her soul has
>become more intense and glorious as a result. (I sense.)
>
>Abso-bloody-loutly

Viva sweet love..

And who cares where you find it.

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 27 05:32:40 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Tilting at windmills
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:32:40 -0600

Wilbur,
I hear you about ethics, justice, and getting ahead. I think a person can
get ahead while caring about ethics and justice.  I'm not sure how, and
maybe I'm just a quasi-young idealist, but I say stay ethical and just,
and eventually people will beat a path to your door!  Everyone wants an
ethical doctor, lawyer, and business person to deal with.
Barbara

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 27 05:42:39 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 11:42:39 -0600

Steven,
I have some thoughts on your dilemma.  I also feel that cyber
communication is "real"  -- it just isn't complete.  More than half of
communication is non-verbal, and the net doesn't allow that to come
through. So what you are experiencing as intimacy, is really only your
comfort level in discussing content with your cyberpal.  True intimacy
can only come with complete communication, one that includes the
non-verbal element.  Also, be careful about what you are projecting onto
your friend in cyberspace...we have a tendency to project our other self
(Jung's anima/animus concept).  For men, this means that you project your
feminine side onto the female on the other side of the net.  This may or
may not have anything to do with her true personality.  If this happens
in face-to-face communication, with all the non-verbals, surely it
happens more frequently in the net, where all the non-verbals are
missing.  My guess is that no matter what you have been through with your
soulmate, you do not really know her.  You only know what she lets
through with her content, and what you have projected into the missing
non-verbals. So be really careful...internet romance seldom survives the
face-to-face contact.  Lastly, be careful that your addictive personality
has not abused the internet...you can be addicted to activities as well
as substances (you probably know this).  The moment your net life becomes
more important than anything else, you know it is addictive behavior.
Hope this has been helpful, and not judgmental (I don't mean to be.)
Barbara

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat Apr 27 06:37:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 14:37:46 -0400

>True intimacy
>can only come with complete communication, one that includes the
>non-verbal element.

I suggest that this is a conceit, and is, itself, a defence against intimacy.

***

Thought problem.

Let's imagine a person who can *only* communicate *to you* using email.
Such a person is deaf, dumb, paralyzed from the neck down. They type with a
pencil stuck in their mouth. They spend most of the day in front of their
computer "making" email.

For three years this person and you exchange stories, recountings of
experiences, artistic expressions, poetry, dreams; you argue and resolve;
at times you are moved to sorrow; other times to joy.

Then, one day, you go visit this person. Your heart races in anticipation.
You go to this person's house and are let in by their caretaker. That
person leads you to your cyber friend's room's door.


You open the door.




The person is not there! But a computer screen is blazing a screen saver's
message:

It says:





"I love you."



***

Not true intimacy? Not complete communication? I cannot agree. That screen
saver's blazing is complete communication, and such a moment is fully
intimate; at least in the way that I am able to solve the thought problem.
And, yes, this is *my* conceit.

***

Stephen

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat Apr 27 06:42:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 14:42:51 -0400

>The person is not there! But a computer screen is blazing a screen saver's
>message:
>
>It says:
>
>
>
>
>
>"I love you."
>

OTOH, the non-verbal element is here too.

As it is when I'm reading my email.

You *do* have to use your imagination.

***

Stephen

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Sat Apr 27 08:01:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: my apologies
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 14:01:02 -0600

Wilbur,
not as I understand "addiction."  Wanting to deeply understand a subject
is more a function of your degree of introversion, and not the same as
addiction.  The amount of time you spend on your computer is only
addictive if you do it to the exclusion of other things.  And I certainly
didn't mean to offend...that is why I asked if you had read up on
addiction.  I am also confused as to why you felt that I had simply
repeated your message..I didn't think I was.  In any case, it is true
that if you find something that makes you feel better, there is nothing
inherently wrong with that.  Aspirin is a good way to relieve a
headache.  But if your headaches are the result of a brain tumor, aspirin
won't help in the long run.  And if the aspirin itself causes health
problems, again, it won't help.  You may answer "duh" again, but from
your message I did not get the sense that you understood what I was
trying to communicate. There are other ways to "cure the brain tumor"
besides indulging in addictive behavior.  Certainly therapy is one way;
meditation and/or religious practice is another way.  Almost anything,
can be addictive, if it is practiced in an exclusionary way.  Hope I
explained myself better.
BTW, from your preface I thought you were going to describe some horrible
experience that you had in childhood, inflicted on you by your parents.
While your parents' experiences were certainly horrific, I was relieved
that my assumption was incorrect.
Barbara

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sat Apr 27 10:05:14 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: social microcosm
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 18:05:14 -0400

Barbara,

Sigh!  I need to be working on some academic papers for the next week or so,
and a semester evaluation, and I was determined to stay out of this arena for
now.  However, your question touches on issues that I am addressing in that
other life, and I might as well get my thoughts out of my head and into
yours!

(BTW -- thank you for reaching out to me, both here and offline.  I will try
to answer your message soon.)

<<how does the net serve as a microcosm of society when only a small portion
of communication (content) is present?  Most of communication is nonverbal,
and that doesn't come through on the net.>>

I was referring to the way that people replicate their customary ways of
interacting with others in groups.  Group psychotherapy is itself a society
limited in time and space; how can a group of people sitting in a circle
talking about their lives in the wider world constitute a society?  What is a
society?  A group of people bound together by geography, history, consensus,
values, need....  A therapy group comes together in a particular place,
develops a shared history through their week-to-week encounters, are bound by
their investment in the process, endorse by their participation the group
values of sharing and self-exploration, exist to meet the needs of the
participants for help with the problems that brought them to the group.  It
is an artificial, contrived reality in some ways, true -- but a reality
nonetheless, and one that often has a profound influence on the psyches of
the people who live for a time within its borders.

Yalom believes that people in groups eventually reveal their way of being in
the world
as they engage in the process of reciprocal interaction with others.  There
are constraints -- lack of time to fully play out interactional dynamics, the
lack of behavioral contexts that often stimulate interaction or insight,etc.
-- but the process is real, and valuable, within these constraints.  Group
experience also encourages a focus on understanding one's reactions to
others, which many people do not do in everyday life.

Here, too, we are a society.  We meet in a geographical neverland, a
landscape bound by intellect and spirit -- our dialogue creates a shared
history over time -- our agreement to the rules of this process constitute
our consensus -- we share a belief in the values of self-discovery, personal
growth, and mutual support -- we share a need to learn, to be heard, to
connect.  Physical nonverbal communication is not part of the experience we
share, but we have opportunities here that do not usually exist in
"real-life."  Physical encounters demand an immediate response, even if the
response is to walk away; it is difficult to ignore someone who is standing
right in front of you.  Here, I respond where I will, and there is time to
form a response in more depth than is usually possible in our busy modern
world.

Here, too, we interact -- and here, too, we are encouraged to step back and
critically reflect on those interactions, and on our own responses.  I reveal
myself with more than words here -- for example, I notice my desire to
nurture others (sharing Rilke's words with those who are in pain).  I see
again how I sometimes stay hidden behind my own words (neglecting, in my
response, to articulate the fact that Robert's midlife crisis awakened
feelings about my own life -- the death of two marriages, the more recent
death of a corporate career, the insistant voices of my own orphan children).
 I recognize the gratification I feel when my name and my words are echoed by
others.  I note with amusement my continued difficulty with conflict (feeling
thoroughly chastised by Wilbur, who was not even speaking to me -- and being
afraid, as I write, that these words will draw his attention to me next!).

We are a social microcosm, the same in many ways as the physical one in which
meaning is often overlooked because nonverbal cues are too loud.  Different,
certainly -- but real, and a powerful agent of change.

Mila -- is any of this relevant to your project?  Walter -- any thoughts to
add?

Marie
(now I really must get back to work!)

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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Sat Apr 27 15:27:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 22:27:31 -0500

Wilbur, Wilbur, Wilbur...

It's rare that I meet someone so opposed to my way of thinking that I can
say NO to every word and thought he voices.  I do thank you for your
response, however...it makes me chuckle if nothing else.  But are you really
serious?  Have you listened with your heart to Stephen and Laurel's replies?
Have you paid attention to the spaces between their words...to the nonverbal
cues?  Did you hear the pain in my dilemma of discovering that I loved
someone in cyberspace as well as in real life?  Did you understand what I
meant when I said perception was linked as much to the intellect as to
sensation?  (This is perhaps how one can perceive so clearly in cyberspace.)
Most of all, is it possible that you don't recognize the vast potential for
Love in "Psyberia"...that you don't understand how online communication can
lead to the development of true intimacy?

Before you close your mind...I thought I heard a *snap*...let me toss out a
random observation.  I reviewed the letter I wrote that prompted your
reply...never once did I mention the word "sex" (although I happen to like
it).  To be fair, I did mention that my cyberlover and I had "made love as
blobs"...hehe.  Your response, however, contained 7 separate references to
netsex, cybersex, phone sex, etc.  This makes me wonder...Do you think you
might be confusing online intimacy with RAW NAKED ANIMAL LUST?  [Sorry,
Wilbur, but I can't help poking fun at you...guess I'm lucky I'm out of
reach of your masculine judo chops...:)]

Anyway, Wilbur...I'm going to suggest that you look at the responses you've
received...and ask yourself if you might be missing something...something
very important.  And next time, before you judge, remember the words of
Herbert Spencer:

        "There is a principle which is a bar against all information,
         which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail
         to keep a man in everlasting ignorance---that principle is
         contempt prior to investigation."

Oh, and Wilbur....

...lighten up.

Steven  :-P

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From garson@HIWAAY.NET Sat Apr 27 16:29:18 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Regina Garson <garson@HIWAAY.NET>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 23:29:18 -0500

Stephen,
>
>Let's imagine a person who can *only* communicate *to you* using email.
>Such a person is deaf, dumb, paralyzed from the neck down. They type with a
>pencil stuck in their mouth. They spend most of the day in front of their
>computer...

A couple years back I had a passing acquaintance with such a person.  She
was a beautiful writer, incredibly intelligent but because of her
disabilities is/was unable to live what we consider a normal life. Because
of her expertise with the computer and words she has been able to build a
life for herself, to being self sufficient. Her love stories were some of
the most poignant I have ever heard. Knowing too well the real world, I do
not know if she will ever live them in real life. The internet has given her
perhaps the nearest to a normal life she will ever attain. In her, I became
very aware the opportunities the net brings to so many. At least where I am
from, we are a physical world. No matter what is inside our head, we will
first be judged from our  bodies. For the first time I know of, technology
has given the physically disabled at least a chance of interacting on an
equal basis, a chance to have a life, a chance to connect. Even if we only
call it an illusion, do they.

>
>For three years this person and you exchange stories, recountings of
>experiences, artistic expressions, poetry, dreams; you argue and resolve;
>at times you are moved to sorrow; other times to joy.
>
>Then, one day, you go visit this person. Your heart races in anticipation.
>You go to this person's house and are let in by their caretaker. That
>person leads you to your cyber friend's room's door.
>
>The person is not there! But a computer screen is blazing a screen saver's
>message:
>
>It says:
>"I love you."
>Not true intimacy? Not complete communication? I cannot agree. That screen
>saver's blazing is complete communication, and such a moment is fully
>intimate;

And it may have been all that could ever be given.
Although I'm not sure that's exactly what you meant.  Your posting struck a
nerve, I think that one individual made me so aware of the positive side and
potentials for human connectedness the net offers. Individuals whom
societies have denied a real human and emotional existence can now have it,
even if only in cyber space. For some reason of all the technological
developments I have seen in my life this potential brings me the most
excitement.

Regina Garson
Magic Stream
http://fly.hiwaay.net/~garson/
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>
>
>

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From vicki@BGA.COM Sat Apr 27 16:59:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Lost a Rilke quotation mentioned here. . .
From: Vicki Colker <vicki@BGA.COM>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 23:59:19 -0500

Hi, fellow Psyberians!

A week or two ago someone on this list (a female, I believe)  used a prose
quotation from Rilke to emphasize her point.  I accidentally discarded this
posting, and I was hoping someone might find it for me . . .please?  I
don't really remember it precisely, but it seemed absolutely perfect to
illustrate the need in a relationship for multiple dimensions.  Was he
discussing emotions?  I don't recall.  I'm sorry to be so vague, but
perhaps one of you will have saved the quotation in question. . . I hope.

Thank you!

Vicki

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 27 19:13:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: social microcosm
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 03:13:00 -0400

> I recognize the gratification I feel when my name and my words are echoed by
>others.  I note with amusement my continued difficulty with conflict (feeling
>thoroughly chastised by Wilbur, who was not even speaking to me -- and being
>afraid, as I write, that these words will draw his attention to me next!).

Critical thought isn't always meant as a chastisement.  The conflict comment
is one that I've noted before from other people, and believe me, I live with
that conflict inside me every single day.  Conflict produces the thoughts
that I have, since I have internalized the conflict that my parents went
through, and what they taught me.

I got about 20 messages today based on the 4 messages that I wrote
yesterday.  Some of them quite interesting, others that would just generate
yet more "chastisement" because of their nonsensical nature.  To be brutally
honest, these relationships are not real enough to me to be bothered to
respond to every thought that I generated.  Were we face to face, I can
imagine the response to what I've said so far.  I watched a therapist today
make it about half way through the description of my parents lives.. and
then jump to her feet because she couldn't stand the emotion that was
generated.  Were we face to face, and I were to have gotten the responses
that I did, (and not one to the conflict of my parents..), I would have
already responded to them, but that's not a possibility in cyberspace,
because the nuance and direct communcation that would be required to express
all that I feel isn't possible in the written word, unless I were to spend a
day for every 3 pages of response.  (like any good novelist that struggles
to put the expression of feeling into words..)

The reality is that my internal conflicts are what makes me the driven
person that I am, and also give me the clarity of vision to understand and
respond to the posts that I've seen so far.  My internal conflicts can be
resolved, and this medium isn't immersive enough for me to express all that
I feel, or even reach for the answers.  They don't wait for email responses,
and I can't be bothered with sending messages on topics that don't sustain
my life.

Netsex is old, relationships over modems are old, disconnected communication
is old.  As a child I spent a year trading reel to reel tapes with my
father, when he was away on military service.  The day that he returned, I
was so unable to express what I felt that I went crazy.  But that was
because I realized that the tapes where not real, not fulfilling, and that I
had been cheated.  I couldn't make up for the year that I had lost, I
couldn't ever share the realization's that I'd had, and that I would never
be able to make up for what had been taken away from me.  I ended up doing
things that my discomfort drove me too, including climbing the large tree in
the back of my house.  Which I fell out of, and broke my arm.  So those of
you that would try to tell me that I don't understand the reality of
disconnected conversation should try to understand that I just don't give a
shit, mostly because I understand it all too well.

For those of you that wish to insist that this is "real life", I wish you
happiness in your online explorations.  I only hope find a way to balance
your lives before you discover that the cyber fruit that you eat steals the
sustainance out of your lifes.  As for me, I'm much more than a keyboard
attachment.

As for Laurel's comment that I'm a typical programmer, perhaps you all
should recognize that this entire CyberSpace world that you are now
living/conversing in was created by and based on the dreams and
understandings of guys just like me.  This entire world is a creation and an
extension of the spiritual world of programmers.  We understand the reality
of this space, both the technical and the spiritual.  We understand the
addicitive nature of this space, after all, we created it to amuse and
fulfill our own desires.  Desires that you have been ensnared in.

I posted an initial message about how this forum wasn't focused enough, how
it would rapidly work it's way out of control.  Now people feel threatened,
and I'm in a position where I can't express myself for the fear of trampling
the spirits of those that are reeling from the effects of the drug that I
call technology.  Of course, there's also the limited bandwidth, and lack of
immediate feedback the hampers this communcation, but those are all old
friends that I've experienced before.

It's a pity that the viable threads that I was engaging in where quite
interesting, but that is a part of the drug, the addiction.  But I've also
come to understand that the internal struggle that I've lived with all of my
life isn't something that can be shared in a public forum.  I've tried three
times, and it just doesn't work, I don't need to create the same sort of
backlash here as I've recieved from other forums.. (both online and
otherwise) besides, I've grown accustomed to not being able to share myself,
and I now understand that it's the lies that bring us together, and the
truth that tears us apart.

So I'm off to my chosen focus once again, putting a human face on technology.
If you think that technology in the form of Cyberspace is addicting, just
imagine how bad the addiction will be when you can't tell the difference
between the computer and a human face.

I'll get around to responding to the email's that I thought were interesting
in private in the next few days, but I can see that I'm going to limit my
public involvement in this forum, I may perhaps even unsubscribe before I
come to find the devil in this group.  I already know the devil that lurkers
inside myself, I don't need to bring it out and parade it around in
Psyberia.  But don't be concerned, because since I recognize my own devil,
and have overcome it, I live a wonderful life.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat Apr 27 19:13:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 03:13:05 -0400

At 10:27 PM 4/26/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Wilbur, Wilbur, Wilbur...
>
>It's rare that I meet someone so opposed to my way of thinking that I can
>say NO to every word and thought he voices.  I do thank you for your
>response, however...it makes me chuckle if nothing else.

Well, just to put a little reality on this, my girlfriend and I discussed
the possibility of this sort of thing when we had been together for about 2
weeks.  We have both had cyber "loves"  (if you don't think that sex is
involved, they why other to call it love?).

My girlfriend and I discussed the realities and lack of reality in any
relationship, online or face to face.  We discussed how we cared enough
about ourselves to promise that we wouldn't ever do that to each other.  I
remain faithful to my relationship with my girlfriend, (live in, 5 years)
for the simple reason that it's a good thing for me!  There have been
discussions of how some people need to have another before they can leave
one relationship.. for me, I can't stand to have a relationship that isn't
genuine.  I would rather be alone than be in a false relationship.  When I
left my wife there wasn't another there for me, and when I left, it was 6
months before I even talked with another woman.  I've come to understand
that this is very unusual, but it does provide me with a clear conscience,
and therefore, quite a bit of clarity about what what I feel in my
relationships.  My relationships become more full and more real the more
honest that I am in them.  And it's been my experience that trying to be
intimatly involved with more than one person means that I'm intimate with no
one, including myself.

So like I said in the last post, I'm not going to continue to try be
intimate here with a group of friends/strangers that think that I don't
percieve where they are or what there postions are.  I percieve it all too
well.  I also percieve that this isn't doing me any good, and is wasting a
great deal of my time.

As to the "lighten up", comment, hey, "Get Real!"  Which would you rather
say at the end of your life, "It had meaning" or "I took it easy?"  Guess
which one I choose?

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Sat Apr 27 20:57:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Illusory love
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 09:57:24 +0100

Anita writes:

> Some years ago I red a marvelous and poignant masterpiece by
> Canadian writer Elizabeth Smart  "By Grand Central Station I sat
> Down and Wept".  It is autobiographical story about herself, how
> she by chance found a volume of poetry by George Baker - "and
> fell passionately in love with him through the printed word".
> They met and, so begun a very tragic love affair.  Baker was not
> so fine person as he was a poet.

I haven't read "By Grand Central Station I sat Down and Wept", but I'm
guessing that the poet's name was George Barker, no?  And if so, yes, a
fine poet.

Here's what he had to say about his wife and child...



::      Myself I am a simple materialist and the stuff
::      in which I believe is flesh.  It manufactures love
::      the way the winter tree manufactures spring leaves
::      or clouds rain, that is, as a fact of its nature.
::      the body of flesh is, for this reason,
::      as strange and as sacred as that bit of baked dough
::      the eucharist to a fanatical catholic.  It is
::      the temple and tabernacle of Joe Smith and
::      contains the Eleusinian Mysteries of Love.

::      I have far less reason to believe in the existence
::      of DNA than in the existence of this love, because
::      I myself have never seen a single twist of DNA but
::      this morning I rose from a tangled bed in which Venus
::      lay sleeping with newborn Eros in her arms.



A beautiful post, Anita.  I must get hold of "By Grand Central Station" and
read it...

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sat Apr 27 23:57:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: rilke
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 07:57:37 -0400

Vicki,

You wrote:

<<A week or two ago someone on this list (a female, I believe) used a prose
quotation from Rilke to emphasize her point.>>   That would be me.

<<I accidentally discarded this posting, and I was hoping someone might find
it for me . . .please?>>

This one?

"All emotions are pure which gather you and lift you up; that emotion is
impure which siezes only one side of your being and so distorts you."

                                                     Rainer Maria Rilke

<<Thank you!>>   You're welcome!

Marie

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From hoon@APK.NET Sun Apr 28 00:19:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: social microcosm
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 08:19:32 -0400

Wilbur writes, in part,

>Conflict produces the thoughts
>that I have, since I have internalized the conflict that my parents went
>through, and what they taught me.

>The reality is that my internal conflicts are what makes me the driven
>person that I am, and also give me the clarity of vision to understand and
>respond to the posts that I've seen so far.

>I already know the devil that lurkers
>inside myself, I don't need to bring it out and parade it around in
>Psyberia.  But don't be concerned, because since I recognize my own devil,
>and have overcome it, I live a wonderful life.
>
>Wilbur

This is rich and revealing. On one hand you've expressed your self well in
a space where the issue of trust doesn't seem to be resolved; this seems
courageous.

On the other hand you have judged your peers here, made unambiguous
statements about Cyberspace and delivered it to us from on high.

As I have seen time and again, contributed to myself, and witnessed this
dance in mailing lists before, this has led to the fulfillment of
identifications -going both ways. The result is we split and defend against
your judgements, which is not to say they don't hit home. Obviously, it
might strike clearly against the addict's denial.

However, in drawing the line, as you have done, you are faced with being
the "boy the parents don't pay attention to,".

We unconsciously group together to become the "parents who don't get it,".
And then we cycle the judgements-at-loggerheads back and forth.

And, it becomes painful for everybody. It pains me to recognize my own
unconscious patterns of response. (Yet, I've learned a lot about them by
being a participant in Cyber-forums because it is a second <g> place where
I can reflect and learn.)

***

Nonetheless, you will find it hard here to unequivocally judge other
peoples' experiences and not escape the group's sense that this judgement
misses the mark. Better to state clearly your experiences and the lessons
implied by those experience for us.

That said, I, (we), may have to adjust to the reality that when I parade
around in no clothes, there might be a little boy in the crowd willing to
say so; and who must.

***

Stephen

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Apr 28 00:53:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Closure in the Aion Reading Group.
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 12:53:31 GMT

I am forwarding this to Psyber-L,


*** Note Carefully!  this is a post about _another_ list , not this
list! ***


~~~


All on the Aion Reading Group list,


I suggest we close the list!   Ha!  Fancy that coming from me.  I have
been an advocate for keeping it open, as I value what people _do_ put
here.  however the silence of 96 is what we have put here too, and
that speaks loudly.

I suggest we do not go out with the whimper, but that we put in the
effort to make a worthwhile closure.  A closure could include:


*  Sharing of the higlights, the fondest memories.

*  The succinct saying of what is unsaid.

*  Some processing of what we might have done differently.

*  Discussing what is to be done with the archives.  (I nearly said
ashes).

*  Plans for the future.


I suggest we keep this to the point and not open up at this time of
closing.  If new energy emerges we can use that to plan future events
and find ways to stay in contact outside of this list.  A new interest
in AION could benefit from a new structure.


This might sound like a strange post to the 4 or 5 new people on the
list!  I think you will catch the drift as (if) we make our
conclusion.

Also there may be some people no longer here, who might return for
this occasion.


~~~~

To join the list !  (this must be an occasion to remember -- joining
to part!)


send email to

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

in the text write:

Subscribe AION

~~~

I will forward this post to the Psybernet Mailing List (Psyber-L )
where there are several who have been and gone here and also to
Carroll who I know is not subbed at the moment.  If you know of
others, please forward this to them.


Walter

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From 101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM Sun Apr 28 00:57:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Lurker's brief visit
From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 08:57:02 EDT

Hi  Franz,

Your post came only to me, not to the list.  Please re post, it is a
great one to have as it summarises so much.  I have included it below
without quote marks in case you need it.



Walter



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sorry, I just pressed the reply button.




Hi all of you out there,
after one month or so of reading many communications posted on the
Psyber-L I should like to pay my dues (as a lurker) by participating in the
discussion with a few thoughts on some of the themes.
First I should like to thank Walter for making this forum available.
The messages posted here are really exceptional and it is a pleasure
reading them. I imagine that I am sitting with you on this Greek Island in a
grove where I had experienced group meetings on "self-awareness".  You provide
me with a lot of ideas and references which I am going to follow up. I was
especially moved by the various letters concerning *midlife crisis* and
*experiences in the corporate environment*.
*To Wilbur on tilting at windmills*
>>My current answer is to start a business from scratch, create
new technology, and then build a corporate culture that doesn't have
the same problems as the ones that I've seen (and I've seen quite a
few).<<
Just recently I read about the corporate culture of SAP a software
company founded by disenchanted IBMers 20 y ago. This company took off with a
flat hierarchical structure having three levels (board of directors, group
leaders,members), only, leaving a lot of space for individual growth. But the
article pointed out that this form of organization has reached its limits at
the present size of personnel since it requires more and more time to be
spent on inter-group discussions on the organization of the work. This time
has to be put up by the employees in addition to the  time for work on the
products. The Japanese corporate culture operates within a similar frame work
with a vertical hierarchy but many discussion between different layers.
Japanese employees show one of the highest number of working hours per year
when compared to other industrialized countries. Part of these working
hours are used for the creation of group harmony. The system works in the
Japanese environment. I doubt if it can be imported into the Western culture.
You might succeed within the closed system of a small company with a group of
people (friends) who share your visions; but dealing with the outside world
you have to play according to their rules, I am afraid. In this context
Laotse,the Chinese of 2500 y ago, is quoted to have said something like " the
secret of life is neither contradiction nor criticism but to cunningly pass
through the holes which exist everywhere in life". Well, some truth may be in
there, even for Westerners.

*Midlife crisis*
A catchy phrase coined by some psychologists which has the power of
self fulfilling prophecy. Your self esteem requires you to have a m.c. Now,
average life expectancy has increased; so, does the midlife crisis also shift
to later years? May be we should start talking about end-life crisis, too, or
when life after death has been proven by scientific means about post-life
crisis (Karl Marx may be a case for study). Seriously, I think that periods of
crisis are intimately woven into our lives, not necessarily at the middle of
our life (which we are not going to know, by definition). If we follow
transactional analysis we are led to the importance of the script: "Thus, the
script is a complete plan for living, offering both strictures and
structures"(E.Berne). In the course of time, our script may become
old-fashioned, obsolete, not adapted to the changes occurring in ourselves.
The attempt of revision is painful.

*anonymity and intimacy*
The psyberspace is anonymous and intimate at the same time. We can
express our most intimate feelings to people whom by normal measures of
probability we are never going to meet f2f. Reading Robert de C`s reply to >>I
am curious about your marriage; has your mid-life crisis caused you to
question your union?<< I felt a certain response in me, resonances. But is
this different from the emotional excitement I get reading a novel. In both
cases the persons behind the names are there in two dimensions only, paper or
screen.  What is a name, does it make this person more real to me? Dr. Klemm
complained about a lack of privateness due to the fact that the computers will
spit out, sometimes at inconvenient times, whatever has been fed into them.
XMEFF is a screen name for John.

*psychology of e-mail project*
Here is something we might get something firm in our hands. Data,
statistics, theory. I hope it materializes.

Fritz (screen name)

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From judithb@sbc1.com Sun Apr 28 01:20:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Generalizing our experience
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 13:20:29 GMT

Wilbur ,
I hear you when you say
< And it's been my experience that trying to be
intimatly involved with more than one person means that I'm intimate with no
one, including myself.>
The key words here are *my experience*. IMHO that is all everyone engaged in
this thread has to bring to the moment. It is my observation (read- thru my
perceptions) of this conversation that the issue of brining one's experience
to the space and then having a discussion about what that experience is only
brings each of us to how we are moving thru life, our issues, our value
systems and underlying assumptions. As a parallel intention here in this list
there is the exploration of cyberscape experience and what that is. The
tricky part as I see it comes when we then generalize and apply it. And in
the generalization process we are holding f2f as the measurement against
which we evaluate. That brings very different information out of the process
than if we explore this cyber experience on its on. But then this is the
habituated scientific positivism research model which IMHO is a HUGE lurker
and trickster here in psyberia;-)

Interestingly from where I've been sitting and to the best of my limited
ability to keep everyone and their contributions attributed to the correct
person, there is an element of gender here lurking:-). Females tend the
research says to place experience in a context, experiencing each context,
making decisions based on the elements of the specific context, which means
that each context could have very different experiences. Males tend to
categorize based on a code or value system which they apply to experience
(rule of law and reason). Very different. Which is what Carol Gilligan
discovered initially when she repeated Kohlberg's research on moral
development. The discussion here seems to resonate to this research.
So you say
<So like I said in the last post, I'm not going to continue to try be
intimate here with a group of friends/strangers that think that I don't
percieve where they are or what there postions are.>

There seem to be perceptions
  I percieve it all too
well.  I also percieve that this isn't doing me any good, and is wasting a
great deal of my time.>
What I have concluded from listening to the discussion here is that people
are bringing these perceptions of their experience and evaluating not
evaluating other's experience.(remembering I am a female and have the
contextualized tendancy. To say *I perceive it all too well* has an element
of judgement which is based in your experience and value system. Good for
you. To make a committment to your current relationship and your personal
growth is to hold sacred your value system and your way of being, exploring
your way of being. That other's have their way of being, what they hold
sacred, and how they explore this experience we call life is as valid from
their point of view as you from yours IMHO. Again the tricky issue in
cyberspace is generalizing which makes for a whole other thread, eh?.

To conclud that this thread isn't doing you *any good* speaks to the
incompatibility issue for me. As in birds of a feather. You simply don't
agree with what is being said and other's don't agree with you.And as I said
earlier at a superordinate level it can be framed as a moral development
issue.

I will say that your latest revelation about your relationship illuminates
past postings for me. Now I know where your coming from.

BTW some of my work involves using Action Reflection Learning methods to get
at these kinds of issues. One of the structures used is initially to have
everyone begin their comments with a list of the assumptions they are making
before they bring their contributions to the table.We decode the assumptions
first by asking  *and why is that* after each assumption is voiced and fairly
soon the person gets to the unconscious or unspoken assumption which is
tripping all of us up.
I've enjoyed everyone's contributions.Thoughprovoking.

Be well,
Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun Apr 28 02:18:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: - intense, emotionally rewarding, and intimate -
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 14:18:52 GMT

All,

Wilbur!  Just as I see your powerful post, you couch it in the frame
work of illness model.  I don't care what you think about reality <g>
that post impacted on me.

I saw it vividly, body language, smell,  and all, you and the whole
family!

It also bought to mind vividly the story of my birth in 1944, when
Holland was occupied by Nazis, and there was starvation all around us.
My parents took enormous risks to feed me and themselves.  (Puts the
danger we feel here into perspective!)

also

My mother was crazy, manic and depressed at times.  Hard for me to
come home to.  My father could not handle that at all well, and was
given some idiotic advice from the medical profession.  I escaped in
to the hills.  Led to me being - immersed - in that, coming to New
Zealand and climbing in the alps here.  Addiction?  Perhaps, but like
you, I'd say:

> (and they are mine, and  NO you can't take them away from me!)

*

> As a warning, I cried when I wrote some of this.

That is body language I understand!  I do not doubt your authenticity
for a moment.

Wilbur, you wrote that post:
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 15:49:32 -0400

~~~

On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:00:47 -0500  "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
wrote:

> Without wishing to argue, I will state that I
> wholeheartedly disagree with those who say such electronic communication
> isn't "real" because it lacks face-to-face contact.

At about the same time you, Steven were writing, almost as if arguing
with the aspect of Wilbur that denies the reality of this medium.
Note too that this is ANZAC day here, the day we remember the war.  I
call that synchronicity. The acausal connection I think you are
speaking of Judith.

The debate about what is real and what is not, what is love and what
is not, has continued.  It is closely linked to the discussion about
addiction, after all, from the outside love can look like addiction,
and it is close to it, it is a cure for pain.  An interesting debate.
Could the debate itself be a move away from authenticity?  It is a
worthwhile debate, but has it moved us away from the depth of sharing
of painful experience?  I also note the heartfelt response to the
feelings expressed, and I think we are doing a great job.  Still, in a
subtle way are we subject to the cultural norm of moving into debate,
and away from "relate"?  Am I doing it now?

Steven,

> My feeling is that this cyberrelationship must be
> sorted out very quickly with respect to the issues of addiction, illusion,
> reality, and personal growth.

How are you doing with this?  You seem to have the real / illusion
dillema within your own being -- what happens to you as we work with
that here?  How is the connection here?  The debate?  The advice?

Steven, you also said:

> the
> lack of physical contact and cues seems to amplify other channels (similar
> to the amplication of touch for the blind person) resulting in an
> interpersonal connection which is a highly intense, emotionally rewarding,
> and intimate.  The possibilities for the expansion of love alone are staggering.

That is your experience.  I believe it.  I have a similar sense _right
now_ being in this list.  It is "interpersonal connection which is a
highly intense, emotionally rewarding, and intimate", it affects my
life too.  I am at home -absorbed- here and Kate has gone off on her
own with her horses.  We are handling it.  BTW Robert, I checked out
how Kate saw the growth of our relationship, yes, it is mutual.  She
described its growh as meandering, weaving its way.  That fits for me.
I told her about the discussion we had.  It was fun.


~~~~

Laurel,

On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 23:39:07 +0100 you wrote:

> I have loved in cyberspace the way I was never able to in real life. I never
> trusted anybody enough in real life with who I really am, to believe that
> the real me could be loved.

As if mplifying what Steven was writing around the same time.


You beautifully put the theme of our intense discussions:

> For me the mask I wear is not in cyberspace but in *real* life.
> I can hide behind what I outwardly appear to be in life.

[snip]
>The man I love has another life, one where I cannot
> enter and there he wears the mask of his own choosing. He cannot so easily
> hide behind it here...which is strange for you would have thought the
> reverse to be true.
> I love him for knowing who I really am.

A small paradox happens however:

> Ultimatly..in cyberspace there is no pretence. You cannot run from who you
> truly are here. It makes itself known. That is when you can look into the
> mirror of your mind and truly know yourself.
>
>
> Oh by the way Fred..where are you.. got your last cryptic priv
> email..waiting for a post along the same lines. (If you dare)

Yes!  People have a way of disappearing here that rl cant match.


Enough for now . . . though there is so much more to say.

As many have already said:  I value the deep sharing.  As Stephen HooN
said:  Awe.


Walter

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From anitak@MEGABAUD.FI Sun Apr 28 04:28:04 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Illusory love
From: Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 19:28:04 +0300

 Hi everybody,

>We create words from love...why not love from words.

 I have red  the discussion on the cyber-love with  a great interest.  My
first language is not English, it  is Finnish, but I try to tell what  I
think of love created from words. When I was young I fell love in  with
writers, even  in  with some characters in the  novels. My  great love was
Samuel Beckett. Once I dreamed that I had  a   amorous affair with him. It
was so real. So sexual in the dream.  But then  I awoke. I thought that I
have to write to him,  but I never wrote, I  was too timid. Some years ago I
red  a marvelous and poignant masterpiece by  Canadian writer Elizabeth
Smart  "By Grand Central Station I sat Down and Wept".  It  is
autobiographical story  about herself, how she by chance found a volume of
poetry by   George Baker - "and fell passionately in love with him through
the printed word".  They met and , so begun a very tragic love affair.
Baker  was not so fine person as he was  a poet.
   Lev Tolstoi  has said, that the  writer  is putting in his novels the
best part of himself,  but very little or nothing is left to his family.
As  a writer and being a writer's daughter, too, I know that Tolstoi  was in
the right  was.  A good writer gives his  or her innermost and authentic
feelings to the readers, his or her  words have meaning,  and words have
their roots in the reality.  He or she is not a liar, not a deceiver.  But
alas, at  the home  he or she is  quite different person  as in  books.  He
don't  share  his innermost   feelings,  he is mean and stingy, he is
ego-centric, he is very awful human being,  that  same person whom the
public loves!  The home folks know his or her shadow-side very well - and
the  darker shadow, the  brighter writer.  I think that it is real love, if
you can love  someone  despite of his dark shadow.   It is  truly  realistic
love.   But when you fall in love on the cyber-space, you  don't see
shadows, you see only  a bright one, who  is putting  on the screen his or
her best side. It  is romantic love, illusory love, but at any case it is
love,  and as true as dreams.  But the awakening  is perhaps harsh.

Anita

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 28 04:36:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: M-C, Jung, & apologies
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 10:36:38 -0600

Barbara,

        Thank you for your consideration in responding to my post.

>Robert,
>my question had more to do with curiousity than personal interest.  I am
>getting an MA in Counseling and couples work is very interesting to me.

        I do understand the rationale for your question.  I, too, took post
graduate studies in counseling and therapy at the University here in
Saskatchewan.  As is probably evident by my posts, the focus was Rogers,
Perls, (and a side-line journey with R.E.T.).  I especially enjoyed the
gestalt of "dream work" and "body dialogue".

>I am happily married for the last three years, but have spent a great
>deal of time in failed relationships and think that I have learned alot
>about intimate relationships and what makes them work.

        I have been happily AND painfully married for 25 years.  Much as it
contributes to my lack of knowledge, I have very little time spent in failed
relationships (the only experiences were from those tender *teen* years and
within the context of social and work related *relation*.  Marriage is a
duality of feeling.  When I speak of *crisis*, I speak of my re-evaluation
of my needs, visions, acceptable *losses*.  Do I know where this will lead?
No!  But then I am not gifted with prescience.

>so my interest is mainly to see if I can be of any help.

        Thank you for your offer, but there was no request for help.  I must
apologize for the disclosure that was made.  I failed to be totally upfront
with everyone in making this disclosure.  The disclosure is REAL.  The
motive was unstated.  If we are to evolve as a community of sorts, we need
to develop a sense of trust and authenticity.  I risked (a minor risk since
I am still for the most part, an anonymous ephemeral being in your
cyberspace) with the disclosure, a calculated risk that has payed good
dividends as far as our ability to stand back and look at what has happened
here (our study of listserv psychology).  I have my own counselor, a man I
truly respect.  So, I must graciously decline your offer.

>So, all this leads to my definition of intimacy...that you are able to be
>who you are in the relationship and still be accepted and loved.  That
>means, no role-playing.

        Before I respond to your words, Barbara, I must be careful to state
that I have NO intention of causing you any stress, no wish to slight your
thoughts.  However, I would like you to hear my thoughts about what I hear
and understand.  Again, please do not take offense as none is offered.

        IMHO, every interaction is in some way role-playing.  If I tried to
be the teacher in my moments of being husband, the role would be
inappropriate.  As a teacher, I am authentic.  As a poet, I am authentic.
As a husband, I am authentic.  As a father, I am authentic.  I stand in
relation to others with each contact that I make, I have a role.  Each role
finds its source in the holistic being that I am.  As life changes us and we
relflect those changes in our relations with others we experience *ripples*.
Sometimes those ripples are minor, sometimes they are not.  I think it was
Laurel who said that we cannot but help to be honest at some level in every
relationship -- who has such superb *control* as to present a total fiction?

        This is why the *masked ball* proposal by Walter will work its own
magic. Even when we speak with *alternative* personalities, we will
necessarily be speaking with part of our soul.

        As you speak to Stephen Hoath, you say:

>True intimacy can only come with complete communication, one that includes the
>non-verbal element.  Also, be careful about what you are projecting onto
>your friend in cyberspace...we have a tendency to project our other self

        Projections?  Yes.  But that is the nature of dialogue, discourse,
intercourse, communion.  Why the need to be *dispassionate* to *take care*.
Life is a risk.  Pain is intimate.  Indifference is intimate.  Intimacy is
within the person who experiences intimacy.  Intimacy is not an
*objectified* or an *objectifiable* notion.  Intimacy exists in spite of, as
well as because of, f2f verbal/non-verbal interaction with another.  What we
create within is intimate.

>My guess is that no matter what you have been through with your
>soulmate, you do not really know her.

        I don't think that guessing is relevant.  We know another only in as
much as we are welcomed within their being.  I stand face-to-face with many
each day, day-in, day-out for extended periods of time.  I do not *really
know* them.  I have spoken but for a few moments with another and felt that
connection of kinship and brotherhood of *really knowing* them.  I have met
others in books and felt that same kinship, that same connection.  I have
met a few on-line who no matter how many dialogues, will remain unknowable
to me.  And then there are those who I meet here who have become part of the
dialogue of who I am, and are therefore now know in ways that they share
themselves with me.  Barbara, I don't agree with you here.  They do know
each other, know each other as much, if not more than people get to know
others (not ALL others -- qualified statement here) f2f.

        Barbara, you then sent a response to Wilbur that spoke to me of the
need to engage in this dialogue with you (and the others as well -- remember
that this is not a one-on-one dialogue).  You said:

>BTW, from your preface I thought you were going to describe some horrible
>experience that you had in childhood, inflicted on you by your parents.
>While your parents' experiences were certainly horrific, I was relieved
>that my assumption was incorrect.

        Please, do not measure the souls of others with pre-conceived
notions.  Read our words, listen to our voices, they are not OBJECTS in
black on your screen.  They are vibrant, pulsating expressions of our
psyche, shared and sensed in the dialogues here.  Please do not take
personal offense.  But, what we do here is engage in experiential discovery
of our collective psyche, we are not here in search of a free counselor.  If
I have judged (terrible word with terrible meanings) correctly, most of us
are counselors already ourselves, counselors who enjoy f2f relationships
with other counselors.  If I have overstepped the boundaries of response
here, please someone, let me know.

        I hope to hear your voice again in the future, Barbara.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 28 04:36:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Wilbur! WILBUR!! mon vieux ...
From: Robert de Cyberie <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 10:36:52 -0600

Wilbur (and of course to the other Psyberians including the lurkers),

        I am astonished at the level of disclosure and brutal honesty that
you have called forth here on PSYBER-L, an honesty that has its owm message
to many of us who are *playing* at the game of *relationship* and
*intimacy*.  Before I speak many more words, I beg you to consider staying
here.  I need that honesty and voice that you project.  I think we all need
to *hear* those discordant voices that make us question those comfortable
thoughts and illusions of reality. Do I agree with you?  That is not the
issue.  What matter if all or none agree with your words, your experience?
They are real, they are yours.

>Critical thought isn't always meant as a chastisement.

        I agree.  I accept critical thought as yet another inner voice that
induces further thoughts with which to engage in the constant construction
and reconstruction of my being.  I grow and change.

>I got about 20 messages today ... <snip> ... To be brutally
>honest, these relationships are not real enough to me to be bothered to
>respond to every thought that I generated.

        This sounds like a replay of the stream-of-consciousness babble.
All the words have meaning--take offs of discordant thoughts weakly linked.
However, in these babblings are value as well.  Conflict as you note,
becomes part of the tool chest that helps shape the person we become.  I
don't hold on to all my thoughts (nor all the messages that pass in front of
my eyes on the screen).  I wait for a reason to respond, if you will, a
treasured moment when I become verifiable in dialogue with others.  I don't
enjoy babble (small talk, polite conversation, dalliance for the sake of
tittilation.  My words are real and they are me.  Does it make a difference
if they are f2f, on the phone, in a carefully-crafted, hand-written letter
(I have good writing skills with pen), or with a keyboard.  These are media.
Media serves to carry bits of me, not ALL of me.  So where do we draw the
line of reality?

>this medium isn't immersive enough for me to express all that
>I feel, or even reach for the answers.  They don't wait for email responses,
>and I can't be bothered with sending messages on topics that don't sustain
>my life.

        Yet, it is valued by both of us (I know I presume much here) as we
continue to engage with others using this medium.  You go much further than
I as you try to "put a face on technology".

>So those of
>you that would try to tell me that I don't understand the reality of
>disconnected conversation should try to understand that I just don't give a
>shit, mostly because I understand it all too well.

        And that is why it would be a loss for me (and I know for others as
well, right HooN? Marie? Walter? Mila?) to have you disapear leaving only a
minor wake of electrons as you unsub.  Would your leaving cause pain?  I
don't know you well enough.  Perhaps given time and opportunities for
dialogue I might feel a greater loss that was personal.  Regardless of your
staying or leaving, my life continues with my engagement with people in
whichever frame, format, and fiction that I choose whether f2f or otherwise.

>For those of you that wish to insist that this is "real life", I wish you
>happiness in your online explorations.

        Must we limit the concept of *real*?  I make love, war, comfort, and
seek comfort in my f2f environment -- I am real.  I project and connect
though my senses to the world to define my *reality* -- a personal
construction.  My words are part of my projection, my connection -- part of
my reality -- not the whole of my reality.  So, mon vieux (old buddy), I'll
continue to explore this other face of reality that you are busy at humanizing.

>Now people feel threatened,
>and I'm in a position where I can't express myself for the fear of trampling
>the spirits of those that are reeling from the effects of the drug that I
>call technology.

        Express away.  They make their own choices, speak their own words or
retreat in silence.  I will speak my reality as honestly as I understand it.
And, I give thanks to those like you who have given me this medium with
which to do so.

>It's a pity that the viable threads that I was engaging in where quite
>interesting, but that is a part of the drug, the addiction.

        Addiction--immersion--sensation--illusion--vision.

>I may perhaps even unsubscribe before I
>come to find the devil in this group.

        Ah!  The shadow lurks in each of us!  Dare we raise the specture of
the shadow and seek to heal the psyche of this listserv?

Robert de Cyberie

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sun Apr 28 06:31:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Wilbur - wait a minute, please!
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 14:31:43 -0400

Wilbur,

I wrote:

<<I note with amusement my continued difficulty with conflict (feeling
thoroughly chastised by Wilbur, who was not even speaking to me>>

You write:

<<Now people feel threatened, and I'm in a position where I can't express
myself for the fear of trampling the spirits of those that are reeling from
the effects of the drug that I call technology.>>

<<I've grown accustomed to not being able to share myself, and I now
understand that it's the lies that bring us together, and the truth that
tears us apart.>>

I don't believe that the truth will tear us apart.  My dis-ease in the face
of conflict is rooted in my own past, born in a home where the expression of
dissent resulted in the withdrawal of approval -- which I felt as a
withdrawal of love and which leaves me still afraid that relationships will
be damaged by strong differences of opinion.  If you leave, does that mean
that I was right?

My response to your words is not your responsibility, and I wrote them only
to articulate my observation of my own internal process.  If they contributed
to your feeling that you can't express yourself here, I am sorry.

Wilbur, your voice is strong and powerful and it calls forth strong and
powerful reactions from those of us who listen to you.  For me, it was easier
to close myself to the critical tone of your words than to open myself to an
identification with the pain you speak of so eloquently.  But I learn nothing
when I am closed, and I am grateful that you force me to look at myself and
my defenses.  I do not come here only to be validated in what I already know
-- only to listen to those who think as I do -- only to find in others the
reflection of my own image.  I come here to learn from the multifaceted
experience and diverse perceptions of others, to share our common humanity,
and hopefully to grow as a human being from our encounter.  Your leaving
would diminish my chance to do that.

I would ask you what response you hoped to receive here -- comfort, support,
recognition?  I did not respond to you in part because I did not feel that
you needed my response, or would value my input.  An unconscious assumption
on my part that I should have checked out.  Your debate with Steven was so
loud in my ears that I failed to hear the story of your pain.  You remind me
to look beyond my first impressions, to challenge my assumptions, to LISTEN.


I hope you stay, and continue to share.  If you are not free to be who you
are here, then neither am I.  I would ask only that you respect my thoughts
and beliefs and feelings.  I may not share yours, but I respect your right to
have them.

Let the truth bring us together.

Marie

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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Sun Apr 28 06:36:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: The Meaning of Love
From: "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 13:36:49 -0500

"No one can deny that a network (a world network) of economic
and psychic affiliations is being woven at ever increasing speed
which envelops and constantly penetrates more deeply within
each of us. With every day that passes it becomes a little more
impossible for us to act or think otherwise than collectively."

       - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955)
         (The Formation of the Noosphere, 1947)
         http://www.sun-angel.com/noosphere/noosphere.html

**********************************************************************

Hmm...the threads interweaving on this list are creating an interesting
design.  I have many thoughts I want to explore relating to cyberaddiction
(for good and for bad), illusion versus reality, the role of the imagination
in providing nonverbal cues, and the meaning of intimacy (don't leave before
you get some, Wilbur...grin).  But for the moment, my mind is moving back to
my earlier contact with Teilhard de Chardin and his concept of the
NOOSPHERE...that is, "the thinking envelope woven around the earth, above
the biosphere, and made up by the totality of mankind.  Its reality (note
this word, Wilbur) is already existing, and its density is constantly
increasing through the rise in the human population, in Its inter-relations,
and its spiritual quality."

Teilhard's concept of the Noosphere predated the world of computerized
linkages but presaged, I believe, the idea of cyberspace and Psyberia.
Now...why should this be of interest to us...particularly, those of us that
are staunch realists...the biologists and engineers and programming types?
(Is this the time for me to mention that I make my living in the dual roles
of an intensive care physician and a basic academic researcher?  In other
words, I'm well grounded in the exigencies of the real world...the
admonition to "Get Real" doesn't have much effect on me except to provoke
amusement.)

Anyway, I have mentioned my experience that cyberspace lends itself in a
remarkable way to the development of intimacy...the fact is that I have
tremendous love and gratitude to my online lover for her trust and
willingness to share herself with me.  Contrary to what others seem to
believe, intimacy is more than cybersex...my cyberlove and I have spent long
hours discussing time and the structure of cyberspace...we have shared our
doubts and our weaknesses and our dark inclinations (this willingness to lay
bare the soul is clearly different from Anita's "bright side" view of
cyberlove...what I'm talking about is hideously dark as well as
overwhelmingly light...above all, it is spiritually whole)

Of great importance, my cyberlover and I have invested ourselves completely
in our words...we don't engage in other activities when we talk online...we
listen to each other's words with our minds and our hearts and our souls..we
let our imaginations wrap round the words...we let our emotions find the
proper reply.  Now, it could be said that this reply is *only* in
words...not true...to say that communication is nonverbal in this medium is
to miss the overwhelming importance of the imagination in all
communication...imagination informs *all* our thought, but its importance is
more clearly seen in this medium...besides, the use of words is not even
restrictive in conveying body language...*Steven arches an eyebrow and
surveys the crowd for understanding*.

So...what do I want to convey in this message other than a restatement of my
experience of online intimacy?...well, perhaps another quote from Teilhard
sums up best what I have received from this medium and what I believe is
possible for me in cyberspace.  This quote is taken within the context of
Teilhard's belief that Love is by definition the word we use for attractions
of a personal nature, it is the most universal, the most tremendous and the
most mysterious of the cosmic forces...in its essence, it is the attraction
exercised on each unit of consciousness by the centre of the Universe in the
course of its taking shape.  Whether this experience noted below holds true
for everyone I can't really say...but it speaks precisely to my current
situation:

        "if man fails to recognize the true nature, the true object, of his
love, the confusion is vast and irremediable.  Bent on assuaging a passion
intended for the ALL on an abject too small to satisfy it, he will strive to
compensate a fundamental imbalance by materialism [how much do you love your
car?] or and ever-increasing multiplicity of experiments [the addiction to
cybersex, Wilbur?].  His efforts will be fruitless---and in the eyes of one
who can see the inestimable value of the "spiritual quantum" of man, a
terrible waste.  [This is precisely the view of my cyberlover.]  But let us
put aside any sentimental feelings or virtuous indignation.  Let us look
very coolly as biologists or engineers, at the lurid atmosphere of our great
towns at night.  [Or the teeming sexual atmosphere and cyberorgiastic
opportunities of the internet relay chat networks...hehe.]  There, and
everywhere else as well, the earth is continually dissipating its most
marvelous power.  This is pure loss.  Earth is burning away, wasted on the
empty air.  How much energy do you think the spirit of the earth loses in a
single night?"
        "If only man would turn and see the reality of the Universe shining
in the spirit and through the flesh.  He would then discover the reason for
what has hitherto deceived and perverted his powers of love.  Woman stands
before him as the lure and symbol of the world.  He cannot embrace her
except by himself growing, in his turn, to a world scale.  And because the
world is always growing and always unfinished and always ahead of us, to
achieve his love man is engaged in a limitless conquest of the universe and
himself.  In this sense, man can only attain woman by consummating a union
with the Universe.  Love is a sacred reserve of energy; it is like the blood
of spiritual evolution."

Teilhard de Chardin  *Human Energy*, pp. 32-4

The point of this overlong missive is that Love cannot be seen...it cannot
be touched...it does not have "body language"...but all things are a
manifestation of love.  The creation of cyberspace is just another level in
our constant struggle to remember...to reunite...to find ourselves and
become whole.  Somewhere in one of Nikos Kazanzakis' books, he speaks about
spiritual evolution...how the whole point of Mankind's bloody and painful
struggle out of the wilderness of the soul is to somehow...somewhere...in
some small way...to create the Face of God...

The computer is only a gateway in this struggle...a means to meet other
minds...to share and love and explore and play...a means to carry on this
creation.

Steven

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 28 09:15:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: - intense, emotionally rewarding, and intimate -
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:15:43 -0600

Walter,

        You ask:

>The debate about what is real and what is not, what is love and what
>is not, has continued.  It is closely linked to the discussion about
>addiction, after all, from the outside love can look like addiction,
>and it is close to it, it is a cure for pain.  An interesting debate.
>Could the debate itself be a move away from authenticity?

        I think so.  It *feels* like a retreat to a corner of safety where
we can shore up our emotional walls with a bit of intellectual activity.
The acclimitization to this new *reality*, benefits from this space of
retreat.  The sophistry of *words* that are bandied about like a convention
of dictionaries safely let us disappear under their cover.  But, they will
return when their wounds have healed, self-inflicted wounds for the most
part I do believe.

>BTW Robert, I checked out
>how Kate saw the growth of our relationship, yes, it is mutual.  She
>described its growth as meandering, weaving its way.  That fits for me.
>I told her about the discussion we had.  It was fun.

        Merci, Walter.  These are good words to hear.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 28 09:15:53 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Love on a different plane..
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:15:53 -0600

Laurel,

        Your reply to Wilber, Stephen, and your hidden cyber-love finds
agreement within me.  I agree:

>This place is special..it does have a magic.
        ... <snip> ... where
>Sometimes the most
>wonderfull thing you can do is forget all that you know is possible and to
>dive into the impossible and just go with the flow.

        Like you, and the many others speaking aloud here, I concur that ...

>This place has something that I believe we are yet to discover and that is
>ourselves and the ability to love and to know other human beings in a way
>that just doesnt exist outside of cyberspace, but which we will learn to
>translate into our real lives.

        Voila pourquoi nous sommes ici, en Cyberie.  Our rationale for being
engaged in this conversation about the psychology of the intrapersonal
dialogue, the engagement in cyber-space.

>This place is a healing place and also a force for destruction. I for one
>will take the good and stomp on the bad. I have seen both and I am afraid of
>neither now.

        And in the passing of that fear comes VOICE.  The poem was beautiful.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 28 09:16:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: dragons
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:16:01 -0600

Hello, Marie,

><<How should we be able to forget those ancient myths that are at the
>beginning of all peoples, the myths about dragons that at the last moment
>turn into princesses; perhaps all the dragons of our lives are princesses who
>are only waiting to see us once beautiful and brave.

        I, the teller <<contes des fees>> believe in the dragons, the
princesses, in the beauty and bravery that exists within each of these
cyber-souls present in Psyberia.

>Perhaps everything
>terrible is in its deepest being something helpless that wants help from us.

        Or, is willing to help us.

><<So you must not be frightened, if a darkness rises up before you larger
>than any you have ever seen; if a restiveness, like light and cloud-shadows,
>passes over your hands and over all you do.  You must think that something is
>happening with you, that life has not forgotten you, that it holds you in its
>hand; it will not let you fall....

        The hands of our souls will catch you.  Your spirit will not be lost.

Marie, these words of Rilke are equisite.  I am reading a bio of Rilke by
Donald Prater, _The Ringing Glass_.  There is little doubt in my mind that
Rilke would be a *star* in Psyberia.  This place is made for the likes of
him.  What also comes out of reading his life story is support for the ideas
voiced by Anita Konkka.  Rilke did indeed need the solitude to create.  His
work came at the expense of his wife, Clara, and his girl-child.  What would
our world be like without the glittering gifts from Rilke, Tolstoy, Hesse,
and other poets of our souls?  Is the sacrifice worth the result, these gifts?

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sun Apr 28 09:16:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: coming out of a cave
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:16:12 -0600

Susan,

        Thank you for taking the time in your busy schedule to spend a few
moments with us here.  I apologize for not being quicker to respond, but I
found that as I was very busy as well.  So much for being illusory cyber-beings.

>The psyber postings
>were a refuge, a place of safety. What beauty in the poetry (including the
>lyricism of the prose)--ah, Robert "spinning webs from bits of incandescent
>light," and Mila's "joy flash" of understanding --Laurel's mindsharing
>especially touched me--to see that "rare and precious thing that can be felt
>here...

        I, too, find Psyberia a place I like to spend some happy, thoughtful
moments.  Unlike Wilbur, I accept this oasis as a *real* place that is not
bound by stuffy materialism (I'm not refering to the technical domaine of
keyboard, motherboard, modem, etc.).  I did find a few words that help
better explain that difficult word, *REAL*.  In his book _Lila_, Pirsig
quotes Edward Sapir:
                > The fact of the matter is that the <<real world>>
                > is to a large extent unconsciously built up on the
                > language habits of the group.
So, what we do here is to create, construct a <<real world>> through our
negotiation of meaning in dialogue. Kluckhohn describes the process as:
                > a means of categorizing experience ...
                > the events of the <<real>>
through language which is simply an *instrument* for the transfer of ideas.

>The strong connection with
>the conversation, the joy in the words and ideas, carried with it great pain,
>however. Last night (in rl ?) ended a long term relationship--we were at a
>distance and e-mail wasn't enough for him, it wasn't vibrant or vital, it was
>cold and sterile and distant. How could this be--for me our e-mail was a place
>to share my heart and soul, to explore the depths of my feelings, to play with
>new ways to look at things, to problem solve issues of the relationship. It was
>my element, playing with words, which have been my joy since earliest memory.

        Unfortunately, we as beings do have a biological aspect that demands
*value time* in its quest for survival.  I, a poet, revel in this space.  I,
as a biological man, yearn at times for the melding of flesh-to-flesh
(f2f???). I, as a social animal, find here the company of peers with whom I
share much.  I do hope that your situation resolves itself into one that is
*more* than before.
>Laurel ... <snip> ...
>I saw his face/voice projected onto yours and jumped to defend the core of me
>that was being now doubly attacked--my apologies for snarling). I realize too
>the relative safety of vulnerability on this medium--no face to lose if I am
>overhelmed by emotions. F2F doesn't afford that luxury--I wept in front of a
>class today (what cruel syncronicity gave me the topic of lifecycles of
intimate
>relationships to cover today--and I was dumb enough to think I could read a
>story as introduction without losing my control)--Here in reading my mail and
>in "minding" this posting I have also wept, but I have the choice to offer that
>in trust to each of you or to hold that in reserve for my own private grief.

        And know that you are heard and held.  Your grief is a shared pain
that many of us here have come to know intimately.  Like a support group, we
take comfort with others who have shared our pain, for they know the meaning
of our experience, the *reality* of our experience.

>I am surprised at the safety I feel though-- and
>the delight at having such a forum to process the processing of this with you

        It is this sense of safety that allows us to chance speaking where
in f2f we might resort to silence (fear of inflicting unneeded pain, fear of
involvement which will be thrown back as unwelcome).  The safety nets are
deployed for each of us.  To forsake one is to risk all.

Robert de Cyberie

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sun Apr 28 09:44:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: the face of God
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 17:44:21 -0400

Steven,

You wrote:

<<Somewhere in one of Nikos Kazanazkis' books, he speaks about spiritual
evolution...how the whole point of Mankind's bloody and painful struggle out
of the wilderness of the soul is to somehow...somewhere...in some small
way...to create the Face of God...>>

Victor Hugo wrote:

<<And remember the truth that once was spoken ...
<<To love another person is to see the face of God ... >>

                           Les Miserables

Marie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Mon Apr 29 07:05:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: my apologies
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 13:05:33 -0600

Wilbur,

        I have a moment to respond to you regarding your post of May 25.  I
found it to be moving in the extreme.  I also found points of connection.

>Believe it or not, there are some things in life, some
>wounds from childhood, that can never be healed..

        Events of our past are that, events of our past.  Wounds heal
themselves over time, or are healed through through the interventions of
others who care.  Some wounds, as you mention become part of the tapestry of
our present as they are not *healable*.  We build upon our weaknesses as
well as our srengths for our survival.

>As a warning, I cried when I wrote some of this.

        The context of a man who is moved by his own thoughts and words, a
moment of authenticity.  Your story of *roots* serves to provide a focus of
*understanding*, the *context* of associations and meaning.  Each of us
needs to fill in the context of our dialogues if that which we think is to
have an opportunity for being comprehended in the listener.  Your parents
created a *reality* from the experiences lived by and through their parents.
We do the same.  Hence, my reality and your reality have different
dimension, different focal points, even different shades of colour.  Yet,
each of these realities is *real*.

        Out of our lives and experiences our children and grandchildren will
construct their own concepts of *reality*.  Will Pysberia -- Cyberspace --
be part of that *reality*?

Robert de Cyberie

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From anitak@MEGABAUD.FI Mon Apr 29 20:30:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Shadow
From: Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:30:15 +0300

=20
Hi Walter, Charles, Steven and everybody all,

I=92m  very young in the Internet. And  in this list  I=92m only one week=
 old.
I don=92t know  on  what  kind themes you have discussed  earlier. I  tried=
 to
get Index from  Listserv, but got an information: there=92s no files=94.
Perhaps *the shadow* is an old theme to you, but to me it is very actually,
because I=92m going to  give a lecture on the shadow in the literature and
dreams.  I=92m interested in how the shadow behaves on the screen.  When I
meet a person face to face I quite soon  have feeling what is his or her
sore spot and don=92t push my finger in it. Was it  Jung who said that don=
=92t
step on the tiger=92s tail?  But  how can I  take care not to step on the
screen, when I don=92t see the tail? I have no experience in that  cause. =
 In
*real* life   a person seldom bears seeing his own shadow. He  gets angry
with an other, on whom his shadow is reflected. If the other says: no, it=92=
s
not me but your shadow, he  wants  no more  meet the other and  they=92ll
separate as enemies.  Perhaps it is not so dangerous  on the screen as in
the real life.  What do you think?



Carles Cameron wrote:

>I'm guessing that the poet's name was George Barker, no?  And if so, yes, a
fine poet.
   Yes, it was George Barker, sorry my error in writing. I cannot write
English so well as Finnish.
  I, too,am  as simple as George Barker, because I believe in the flesh.
There is the spirit in the flesh. Nevertheless, I have since youth admired
Rilke=B4s poetry.=20

Best wishes
Anita

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Tue Apr 30 04:03:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Me, Myself, I
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:03:55 -0600

Marie,
how do you know that the man that you love in cyberspace is telling you
the truth about himself?  Why is it so easy for you to trust that people
in cyberspace are telling the truth, when it is so difficult for you to
trust people in the "real" world?  And I assume that you do not trust
people in the non-cyberspace world because you never let them see who you
are.  I don't know that this man is lying to you, he probably isn't, I am
just curious as to how you can be so sure that you know him.  Of course,
since you have no plans to meet, and are realistic about the possible
lack of compatibility if you do, your relationship probably does no harm
to you, and in fact, may provide you with a connection that you really
need.  I hope this line of questioning is not too direct or offensive; I
am really curious about this.  I am very trusting of people in general,
but very wary of people on the net.  Since I am only getting content and
not the rest of the non-verbal communication, I can never be really sure
where someone is coming from.  And anyone can say anything on the net.
That is both it's greatest strength and weakness.
Barbara

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Tue Apr 30 04:06:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:06:05 -0600

Wilbur,
Well said on your message to Steven about the nature of cybersex.
Barbara

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Tue Apr 30 04:15:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Language, relationships and whatever..
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:15:34 -0600

Walter,
Actually, my husband, Charles Eversole, knows Diane Madgin quite well.
We visited with them a year ago when we vacationed in New Zealand.  They
are wonderful people.  If you happen to see them, or Bill, please say
hello from us.
Barbara

On Fri, 26 Apr 1996, Walter Logeman wrote:

> Barbara,
>
> > Walter,
> > How neat that you live in Christchurch!  Do you happen to know Diane
> > Madgin or her husband Bill (don't remember his last name, but he is a
> > Sociology prof at the univerisity.) They are the friends we visited a
> > year ago.
> > Barbara (Boulder, CO)
>
> I do!  I expect you mean Bill Willmot.  I don't know them well but
> taught his daughter briefly years ago.  Also my son did sociology and
> will recall him well.
>
> Do you know them well?
>
>
>
> Walter
> Sensing the rl world creeping in . . .
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Tue Apr 30 04:49:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: coming out of a cave
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 10:49:34 -0600

Susan,
I wish that I could hug you.  I know how painful it is to have a loved
one end a long-distance relationship, and my thoughts are with you.
Barbara

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Tue Apr 30 06:14:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: me, myself, and I
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 14:14:00 -0400

Barbara,

The message you addressed to me about *my* cyberlove was a little off-track.
 I did not write <<me, myself, and I>> -- Judith did, and she wasn't writing
about cyberlove.  I think your words were written with someone else in mind
-- in fact, I know they were, because I haven't written anything about that
topic, here or anywhere else.  Please be aware of the mistaken impressions
your words could leave with the rest of the list -- that you were responding
to an off-line communication from me.

Since you did address your comments to me, I will say that I don't believe it
is entirely possible to know if someone is lying to you in cyberspace -- any
more than it is always possible to know if someone is lying to you in
*real-life*.  Trust is always a matter of choice, and always a risk.
 Sometimes it's worth it.

Be well ...

Marie

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Tue Apr 30 06:49:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: me, myself, and I
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 12:49:15 -0600

Marie,
Sorry if I mailed to the wrong person.  I believe I e-mailed you
privately, so no one on the list knows about it, so hopefully there will
not be any misinterpretations by the list.  I suppose you may have
replied to someone else's message, and then I inadvertantly replied to
you by mistake.  Sorry for the confusion.
Barbara

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Tue Apr 30 07:00:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber-Love
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 13:00:09 -0600

HooN,
Love, IMO, requires intimacy.  Intimacy, IMO, requires true
communication.  Communication, in many people's opinion, requires
non-verbals as well as the content, or the words.  IMO, you cannot fall
in love with another person on-line; you can fall in love with your image
of who the person is that wrote those words, however, which has more to
do with who *you* are than who they are.
Barbara

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Tue Apr 30 08:32:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber-Love, Synchronicity etc.
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 21:32:26 +0100

More on Cyber-romance
----------------------



(0) Wilbur replied to snippet of my article on Friday:


> I feel that much of the 'mainstream' information we are bombarded with by
> >the media is designed purposely to produce negative feelings  - in effect,
> >mental and emotional rape. I dont watch the news last thing at night [on
> >the advice of Louise Hay], since it just seems to be a list of disasters;
>
> Ah yes, the lies that keep us together.. for the sake of our institutions..


Thanks for replying to this, but
I must admit I didnt see what you mean here - do you mean that it's the
lies of the media that 'keep us together'? and by 'institutions' do you mean
hospitals and the government?

> the government to protect us from crime, the hospitals to make it all
> better, etc..

That wasnt what I meant; when I said that the news was a list of disasters
I was talking about things which affect us deeply and negatively at the
subconcsious level: murders, accidents, doom and gloom etc.

>But what does the instituion have to do with us as
> individuals?

What institution? the government?


>Why do they have to right to dominate our lives in almost all
>media forms?

They dont. People give their power away and let it happen. But that's not
what I was talking about!

I was talking about love, and how the media try to wear us down and prevent
us from keeping our happy thoughts. If 'net-sex' or 'cyber-romance' as I
would rather reframe* it builds people up and lets them break down some
of the conditioning and programming we carry around with us to feel
some compassion, love and intimacy on the net, then it gets my vote.

[Reframing is an NLP technique; Wilbur, is that you I see on the NLP list?
If so I'd like to discuss the cyber-love idea with you in an NLP context;
now how's that for a reframe! :-)]

Since I've crawled out of my lair again I think I'll give my true opinions
on the 'cyber-romance' idea.

1. It may be 'old' as far as the net is concerned but then that doesnt say
much! I like to consider things for what their worth regardless of time-value,
fashion or fads and to take Robert Pirsig's advice about 'static quality';

[Pirsig relates in 'Lila' how if we play a record the first time, we may love
it; the second and third, like it; the fourth, fifth and sixth, it's OK;
seventh, eighth, ninth... maybe we dont want to play it any more for a while.
my illustration here is that cyber-romance may be old for people who've had the
experience of it and tired of it; but I reckon if it's done properly, openly,
honestly and compassionately [which may be a big if, I admit!] then it could
be the best thing since sliced bread.]

2. I'm preaching on something I've never really tried, interactively; I've
had a deep and uplifting conversation through e-mail with a fellow NLPer,
but not through IRC.

Despite my relative ignorance I will claim that the feelings one gets
in cyber-romance are very real, very valuable and very worthwhile *if*
the intent is positive. Decent, honest, sincere, kind and gentle people
can be hard to find, but from what I have gleaned from Psybernet over the
past year and a half I think I would get on well with most of the people here.
For me there's a charming, uplifting quality to reading other people's inner
thoughts rather than surface opinions, and Psybernet has proved unique on
the net in that regard for me.

3.  I think people engaging in cyber-romance *can* fully interact, and can
heal and uplift each other.  One of my interests is psychic healing, and
I was a little nonplussed when the woman I first 'connected' with in
this manner 'zapped' me with heinous amounts of energy from 300 miles away.

This is no longer a 'crackpot' claim to make, and is in fact backed up by
perfectly valid scientific evidence now;

- Where Science and Magic Meet, Serena Roney-Dougall
- The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing, Ernest Lawrence Rossi

These are 'scientific' books; they show how the mind affects the body
on the cellular level, and how we can affect each other and send energy,
love and emotion across great distances.

Professor Robert Jann's famous psychokinesis experiments showed that this
works long ago, but it is only with the advent of Rossi's and Roney-Dougall's
books that we have scientific proof to back up these claims.

So Laurel, Dolores & other cyber-romancers, how about adding some psychic
healing to your net-sex sessions? All you need to do is visualise the other
person and see the love flowing into them in your mind's eye, as it flows
into you and through you from the world around you.

And if you need a boost to get the love flowing, you might like a go
of my computer hypnosis program. [sorry, couldnt resist the plug... :-)]


4. I hear a lot about how the lack of the normal senses and information
which comes with face-to-face contact limits and devalues net relationships;
I dont hear much about the IMO advantages, viz. that it doesnt matter what
you look like, what you wear, how old you are & even your sex for you to
be able to connect with people and project / receive love.

I became very fond of a correspondent I went into some very deep stuff
with, gradually finding out several things which would have had me running
for the crucifix if we'd met face to face at first. Gradually instead of
running away it's my prejudices and fears which have had the chop; as well
as suspending many of our taboos limitations which disqualify people in our
sights, net relationships can help us overcome them too.

5. One of the good things about Psybernet IMO is that it's OK to say what you're
feeling, how the discussion is affecting you and lots of things which just
dont get said or treated as important in any other forum, electronic or
physical. That sense of my feelings and impressions mattering is a very
welcome one, and I believe that Walter and the other participants here are
sincere and honest in their consideration of other's experiences. I would
like to see this exported to other parts of the internet and to life in
general; and not least to 'cyber-romance'. If participants in a chat session
ask the questions we have asked here, consider each other's experience as
as important and valuable as their own, and go into the depth which is gone
into here, then it will be an uplifting experience IMO. If they are able
to heal each other and connect psychically too, it will be fantastic.


Enjoying the discussions,

Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Tue Apr 30 11:01:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: == Archives == [Was Shadow]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 23:01:41 GMT

Hi  Anita

> get Index from  Listserv, but got an information: there=92s no files=94.

You almost got it right!  Here are the instructions.

== Psyber-L Archives and Files ==

To get the File List associated with  Psyber-L

send an email to:

LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

in the text write:

INDEX PSYBER-L

You can then get the files with the GET command.  For example to get
last months archive write to the listserv and in the text write:

GET PSYBER-L.LOG9603

Good luck!


Walter

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Tue Apr 30 12:29:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: . . . noticing . . .
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 18:29:05 -0600

Walter,

        Your words struck me hard.  We do feel here--anger, love, confusion,
sorrow, scorn, impatient, caring, loss, and at times, awe.

>I am at the screen, facing Psyber-L, and I feel.
                ... <snip> ...
>I know nothing I say can really change a thing, and that is just as
>well!  You are fine just as you are!

        But, I think that what we say to you Wilbur can effect change.  You,
a master in this environment, know only too well, that words have power,
they connect us as a species and help us defy time and space, defy our
geography and our biology.  But, only you can build the change that our
words may suggest.

        Walter, you were drawn to an important point as you noted:

>I see others interested in you.  It is not just personal to you IMO,
>there are questions here for us all, how we as a list attend to you
>and your life as you bring it here is important

        Yes, we search to ourselves and see that we *need* to be mirrored.
Each that we encounter here becomes important to our self-knowledge.  The
questions we ask of others are questions we also ask ourselves hoping that a
light will someplace be turned on within us.

>Can it be done?  Can I be here in my fullness and not be kicked off ,
>flamed, excluded . . . or perhaps even:   Can I face myself here?  Can
>I combine this level of feeling with learning about lists?   Or:  can
>I count on these people?  Is this OK?

        I don't know, Walter.  But I think that we need to find this out.
Will we again have this opportunity?  Will another list find the same
dynamics in its human company to lead us to attempt this feat?  The cost of
failure is less than the failure to try.  We dare much here.  We care more.

Robert de Cyberie

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Tue Apr 30 13:34:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: . . . noticing . . .
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 01:34:13 GMT

All,

I am at the screen, facing Psyber-L, and I feel.  For me that is how
it is, I feel pain as I think of you, Wilbur.  I see others urge you
to stay.  I am one of those!  I often disagree, but I nod with much of
what you say, I enjoy what you write, and most of all I like you!  I
think you invoke a lot of emotion and reaction and you seem to
contradict your words wildly with your action -- but you are vital,
and a genius type.  I know I am only here in *virtuality* with you and
this may be all projection -- but I feel in the presence of someone
who will make earth shattering impact with some quirky new software --
you will chuckle with glee as it throws us all into confusion about
the medium and the message that McLuhan never dreamed of.  If you stay
or go, I will have had the pleasure of meeting you.

Another thing, your take on the focus of the list being too complex,
your wanting to get on with the psychology of listserv, you raise
matters that need to be raised.

I know nothing I say can really change a thing, and that is just as
well!  You are fine just as you are!

~~~

I had not really intended to focus on you like this Wilbur, it is just
that you stand out as I look into Psyber-L.  I wanted to look at the
whole, I did, and this is what I saw.  I will make a more general
sweep in another post.

I see others interested in you.  It is not just personal to you IMO,
there are questions here for us all, how we as a list attend to you
and your life as you bring it here is important:

Can it be done?  Can I be here in my fullness and not be kicked off ,
flamed, excluded . . . or perhaps even:   Can I face myself here?  Can
I combine this level of feeling with learning about lists?   Or:  can
I count on these people?  Is this OK?

I feel the pain Wilbur because i see your mother in the tunnel as i
look at you . . . i  fear that  we could repeat all that here.



Walter





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From hoon@APK.NET Tue Apr 30 16:51:47 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Cyber-Love
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 00:51:47 -0400

>HooN,
>Love, IMO, requires intimacy.  Intimacy, IMO, requires true
>communication.  Communication, in many people's opinion, requires
>non-verbals as well as the content, or the words.  IMO, you cannot fall
>in love with another person on-line; you can fall in love with your image
>of who the person is that wrote those words, however, which has more to
>do with who *you* are than who they are.
>Barbara

My single sense departs from your bifurcation, confirmed for me in my
experience:

one falls in love with one's image, off-line as well as on-line.

***

But the question is subtle (for me,) in that we may talk about *falling in
love* as the initiation into loving. (Again, the Jungian view suggests that
we fall in love with an ideal image...naively, yet often unconsciously and
irrevocably.)

***

Can one love another in this medium? Perhaps "falling in love" is the
*easy* part of the great

leap. ?

Peace,

HooN

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed May 01 00:36:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 06:36:13 -0600

To all,

        It began one day as I posted a poem to a listserv that was
discussing the nature of computer-mediated communication.  I have this need
to express myself through poetry at times (surprise, surprise).  The
participants of the listserv were mainly therapists and counselors who were
trying to answer the question of Internet's usefulness as a domaine for
group counseling.  I based much of my contributions on the works and words
of Buber (I and Thou) and Rogers (On Becoming a Person).  I can't remember
the poem, exactly as I was also e-publishing poetry on a majordomo service
out of New Mexico.

        She replied to my poem off-list.  She spoke of being caught up in
the words that were *speaking to HER*.  She felt that those words that
appeared on her screen, words that I sent to the *group*, were written for
her.  She invited me through her praise to dance with her in cyberspace.
For a poet, the attention went to my head and to tell the truth, to my
hormonal system.  Here was a woman that spoke of my reaching her *core*, of
melting her resistance.  Like a naive fly, I entered the spider-woman's web
and began a cyber-affair.

        Love?  No.  Filling in the empty spaces that haunted me from a
lifetime of bruised emotion would be a better description.  For three months
the email flew hot and heavy.  We spoke often, but we never ventured much
past raw needs, a version of sacred sex.  Never did we speak of those small
things and those large things that form the foundation of relation.  Which
philosophies, which poets, which small worries, and which small hopes that
spoke to our understanding of reality never found a voice.  Almost as
quickly as it came, it left.

        I felt bruised and empty from the experience.  In a way, I felt
raped.  I felt the adulterer with all the attendant guilt.  Yet, it forced
me to face the reality of my reaching out to another, even if only through
this electronic medium.  I had to look to myself and my real-time life for
the roots of my need that allowed me to become involved in a cyber-affair.

        This is my last poem to the siren.  I wrote it last August.

                XXXX's Song
                ^^^^^^^^^^^

Sheathed in translucent silk baring your beauty softened
you appear before my eyes a phantom
Shadowed and erotically luminous in the light glowing
from our joint soul

Your eyes, glowing sapphires, filled with a promise of passion
and hinting of magic and mischief
Eyes that invite my soul to a dance
to feast in communion

Bending the texture of silk, your breasts
perfect, having nourished and suckled creation
Nourishing me with their milk
your tenderness and love

Aureoles encircle fountains that feed both body and soul
aching for the tug of tongue and lips
and the kisses of need.

Framed in the strength of body erotically alive to my touch,
the birthplace of passion and the human race
A place of mystery, shadow and magic

Within your depths, this homeland of the soul
I am reborn
Reborn in love, a love child, a loved man

Your centre, a warm hearth that embraces
melts denials and banishes shadow
Life ... creation ... love flows as warm nectar
in moist union of spirit

Thus two become one
and the universe is complete through the communion of souls
A sacrament of love between ghosts
A song between soul mates

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

        The words of love are really words of longong for love.  The rest is
a response to her physical invitation.  She sent me photos, books, a video
on sacred sex.  What I needed was not found in all this.  I needed to learn
that I was more than a body and an erotic voice for another's need.  I
needed to be seen and heard and met.

        I left her on-line, and I left the discussion group.  I retreated.
My only involvement with Internet was with a French cafe for small talk.
Then, after a period of healing, I again risked genuine dialogue.  I had
discovered PSYBER-L.

        My first interactions with Walter and Mila met with gentle, and I
feel, honest acceptance.  Charles and Stephen  helped to welcome me.  I then
sent a poem _Silence is a time for Whispering_, a testing step into
revealing more of who I am, a moment of disclosure.  Again, positive
reaction -- and no wrote off-list to engage me in a liason.  I had found a
place that I could trust.

        Walter.  You watch and listen.  Can you here the echos of off-list
dialogue?  As there came a flood of newbies, there also came dual-track
dialogues.  I began to receive off-list letters inviting me, engaging me, to
meet and dance that erotic biological dance.  I learn, slowly, but I do
learn.  I realize that my silence off-list is confusing to those ladies who
thought that perhaps they had met HIM at last.  I am not HIM, I am Robert de
Cyberie, I am ME.

        Yet, for all of that, I do believe that one can love here in
cyberspace. Walter.  There is one other dialogue off-list that I've not
mentioned.  I've met another who is as tentative as I in building
relationship.  Our dialogue seeks to understand the *other* and the *self*.
Where does this relationship head?  Only time will tell.  But, I have a good
feeling about myself in this relationship.

Robert de Cyberie

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed May 01 04:02:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: - Overview -
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 16:02:32 GMT

All,

- Numbers -
The Psybernet Mailing List has been in a time of change.  Six weeks
ago or more ago the numbers rose rapidly from about 45 to 150, we are
now at about 100. In the last month the number has been fairly steady
with about 20 more people subscribing and 20 or so leaving.  I think
this is fine, we are consolidating our gathering.

- A perspective -
As the new influx arrived we were whispering.  I saw us in large
circle around an open space.  Now I see us in a more complex swirl of
activity.  There are people in small groups, some pairs, our diversity
is being *voiced*, there is advocacy and opposition to certain
perspectives.  Feelings are aroused.  We know each other better.  Some
are more solidly here, others are less sure than ever, and on the
fringe.  There is some anticipation, what will come of all this?

On 9 April I wrote a list of items we were discussing.  Among them:


> *  Reality -- the nature of it.  What is authentic and what is
> bullshit, posturing.


That certainly is a theme we have been pursuing.  In many ways.

What is real dialogue?  What is real love?   What is a real person?

This is not an intellectual discussion, though there has been a lot of
thought go into the posts.  The ability to combine the philosophical
with the deeply personal has been a fine achievement.  My hunch is
that most of us are less concerned about the ontology of cyberspace
than what is in our hearts and in our guts.


- Some questions we might (re)consider -

How is our list, our gathering, doing OK in attending to the personal
opening up that people are doing here?

How is it not OK?   What else might we do?

What are we learning about the psyche in cyberspace?

How are we doing with the broader focus of Psybernet?


- Overview -
My overview here might or might be anything like the how others see
our efforts here -- I'd love to hear.  How do those questions sound?
Would you ask other ones?


Walter















_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

_______________________________________________________________
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From tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ Wed May 01 11:19:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Some more Poetry...
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:19:19 -0400

Heres looking at you!!
Well I'm slowly picking & mixing the messages to read but lifes busy so it
anint easy,  so I just send some more poems-hear ya go Steve:

Heart Beated

My hearts not beating double time
maybe it will never beat faster
talking about the weather
kissing
I think
now I should be want
but suitcase-coffe table-Yes!!

Have I got a suprise for you
I wont know if you ask me
riddle me this
riddle me that
wicked games
I know not when
we shall join in fiery embrace
Future
too confused now
Just breath away

your gonna wade from the shallows
brave drowning in deeper waters
Time was an exuse
How convient
now the coins been flipped

were still connected
you think I'm final
ending only in conclusion
not seen for a while
try to explain messy unfinished stammering sentences that end in
I wish you were standing here
I'll see you
& hear from you
but I wont be you

strange
black comedy lifes weaved
I muse
fill me into life
I'll stand out like colour
if even I'm there
past present future meld me in exspectations
of you there...


Intimate jest

We propersistioned casual sex
I do what I want for me
that may sound selfish
but that's just "her"
sometime someplace

Intimate sexual creative pleasure
but what if attachement occurs?
it's not just a Fuck!!
It's a casual/non casual agreement between 2 platonic people

fear of complication
jump into my fire
fry me good
Green eggs & Ham
Tama I am

dark silent Bliss books
smelling old & wise
all shelved in intrigue
geeting down with books she hooks
Do You feel comfortable here?
darkness radiates
candles glowing sparkling in air driven dances
Shadows etched on wall paper
melting in heat

intrinsicly subtle
dark rollings of Rum hair
under water cat eyes
cream foldings of face
breasts curveously soft resting there

hands held in union
shy glances
to trace hands in pink patterened prints
embrace you,  hug me warm & good
little wet fairy kisses blown about
hands of blood warm carress shivering across me at once

Clothes slowly unhitched
falling in autumn
standing like newborn
naked in vunerability
relaxed fused in anticipation

Embrace me
sweet to lips
bitter sweet pips
saite my taste
can you?
Do You?
Feel?
Me!!


Livid Lethargy

Slagged slothfully flaked
Woozy wobbling
heavyness imbibed
drowsy mad cowsy

Minow flinches,  water flies,  fluke nosed dolphin
Up with it crooning
swooning looning
streched floopy
numb dumb
sum plus fatigue equals Zero energy

Going nowhere fast
sinking into bed
floating up above body luggage
emotional baggage jetisoned
Full fractal frobulousness in the Spod
Loseing it-EXHAUSTION OVERLOADS...



Floating the need to Write

Fiddleing for meaning
not needed
but it's fun to mentally masterbate
In conscience I bear reality as fine as the nib I write with
seeds claeve across leaves aflame
cleave juicy fire red seeds pouring out in dementia
means scatter to their own ends
flaired into a jumbled epilectic fit.

Weave it out for me
threads spun,  extracated,  connected
shuttled spun spinningly connected glistening to webb

Contrived to see me
enthralled at you-Life's a gas
Flash No!!
beuatraus in deep abounded richness
of
smooth uncouth sultry ease
smiles sketched to me
unpenned slightly consumed by not being in the mood to be enough
cuffs-hold sense hands
close smelling mingeledness
leaked a stray feeling
It'd be cool to be a magical If?

Tender slippings-likeing it!!
afraid to crease yourself
life give me care not to tread to heavy
let me freely float mused into clear crisp enlightenment...


Thats me for a little while,  thanks people!!



                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed May 01 13:45:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: off-list letters
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 01:45:32 GMT

Robert,


>         Walter.  You watch and listen.  Can you here the echos of off-list
> dialogue?  As there came a flood of newbies, there also came dual-track
> dialogues.  I began to receive off-list letters inviting me, engaging me, to
> meet and dance that erotic biological dance.

Yes, I spoke of it on the list briefly, that the off-list pairing was
like the phenomena of lurking, something we know and yet will never
know the full extent of.

I am delighted that you posted all this Robert.  All our talk of
"safety" and "danger" and what is real etc. may be something to do
with the lack of safety off-list!   Words can hurt!  Words can create
spaces where, like you Robert, you felt raped.

No wonder a while back you were warning me!  Also saying "listen to
the innuendo"  there was innuendo in that!  I am pleased this is now
more in the open.

I have had little private off-list mail, none of it has been
inappropriate or erotically enticing, though there were some with
email addresses that were suggestive, I am not sure where they came
from.

Quoting private mail from others in public, presents some ethical
problems.  I am really clear that some private mail in extraordinary
circumstances , because of its nature is best quoted in public.
Certainly speaking here about on-line off-list experiences, especially
ones associated with this list, as you are doing Robert will add to
our ability to trust here.   Thanks

You go on to say:
>         Yet, for all of that, I do believe that one can love here in
> cyberspace. Walter.  There is one other dialogue off-list that I've not
> mentioned.  I've met another who is as tentative as I in building
> relationship.  Our dialogue seeks to understand the *other* and the *self*.
> Where does this relationship head?  Only time will tell.  But, I have a good
> feeling about myself in this relationship.


Yes, and yet those warnings from all who have experienced the power of
these relationships -- both those for and against their reality  <g>
and yourself included, are worth listening to . . . I guess I am
returning the caution you offered me.



Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed May 01 13:59:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: off-list letters [was  Re: social microcosm]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 01:59:27 GMT

Wilbur and All,

I dug this out from a few days ago, I meant to comment earlier, but do
so now inspired by Robert's post on off list mail.


Wilbur wrote, On Sat, 27 Apr 1996:

> I got about 20 messages today based on the 4 messages that I wrote
> yesterday.  Some of them quite interesting, others that would just generate
> yet more "chastisement" because of their nonsensical nature.  To be brutally
> honest, these relationships are not real enough to me to be bothered to
> respond to every thought that I generated..

How much of this was off list?  You have shared a lot here from your
life - on the list -  and IMO the sharing from others is best to occur
on list.  Opening up like you did about your inner life, is well met
with posts from others sharieng something of what it raised in them,
and not judgment or advice etc.  If that sort of mail comes it can be
quite hurtful.  And as you say you cant interupt an email.  Sometimes
the hut flies in before you realise.  Words can be sneaky weapons.
And sometimes *unintentionally* so.

When this happens on-the list, usually , and hopefully, others will
respond to disguised attacks and so on.  Twenty emails to evaluate on
your own is too much after you have already done the emotional work,
for yourself and for the benefit of the list.

This is an old principle, that I have heard and used many times:
"Take it back to the Group".



Walter.



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Wed May 01 20:55:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: on dragons, safety nets, and nonverbals
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 03:55:16 -0500

Good morning, friends (yes, this somehow seems appropriate, at least in the
more casual sense of friends--and even with the inklings of the more connected
sense of friend)--
        Thanks to those of you who tossed out a "safety net" for me recently,
esp. Marie and Robert. Marie, your inclusion of Rilke's reflections on light
 in the darkness was inspired, giving me a handle on grieving this loss.
--the discussion of dragons and princesses was also intriguing, and made
me ponder the gender connections with dragons. Here dragons were linked with
the feminine(princesses)--a connection I have oft pondered, esp. given the
predeliction of knights in myths to slay us (we?) dragons who may have made
life to hot to handle ( :-)  ). OTOH, dragons in the I-Ching are the image of
masculinity, the powerful and controlling element of yang.  --Robert, the
safety net you deployed was recognized and appreciated. I did feel truly heard
--and more specially, held (in a safety net, to be sure, but more concretely, I
felt truly held--comforted in the arms of an acquaintance -- this is NOT to be
read sexually, but in terms of the purest offering and accepting of that sort
of connection which gives space to heal). In looking at these responses to me
and in thinking about Walter's question of how we respond to the sharing of one
another, when we make ourselves vulnerable, I realize too that had I received
the sort of response that Wilbur did that I would have felt rebuffed and hurt.
Admittedly I run to the timid side, at least in my feeling responses to others,
but somehow I haven't quite been able to embrace this vigourous challenge
approach to exploring differences. Maybe this is due to being socialized as a
female or just being extraordinarily sensitive to nuances of meaning or
projecting my own insecurities onto others, but I think we don't always
separate the challange of the ideas from a challenge of the personhood of
whoever set forth the ideas. One other response I have seen besides support and
challenge has been "fixing"--this actually makes me feel least comfortable.
Coming "out" emotionally to a group of colleagues/equals is very different than
doing so when there is someone out there trying to "fix" me, no matter how well
meaning this fixer might be. Robert, you addressed what I think was a similar
issue with Barbara kindly and directly--I suggest we generally have this sort
of approach boundaried out lest the hierarchy implied by fixer-fixee roles
destroy the delicate balance of what we have.
        I do want to address a particular issue which I see coming up
regularly--and one which has disturbed me for some years, namely the "premium"
that seems to be attached to the non-verbal aspects of communication. While
Barbara suggests that it is widely accepted that non-verbals makes up the lions
share of meaning in communication, I would have to disagree. It is true that it
is widely bandied about, esp. in first year and sophomore level college classes
, that non-verbals make up a large amount of meaning. This began to really
niggle at me the past few years and what I have discovered in tracking through
literature is that there simply is no convincing evidence that this is so. It
is, as someone on another the research list, part of the folklore of
communication, begun by some misquotings of Birdwhistle, I think. It is
impressive folklore, but not especially reliable. Some counters to the priority
of nonverbal have already been suggested by Anita, who noted that a writer
gives his/her innermost authentic self to readers (the exercise of emotion, the
feeling of presence when reading great literature--or even mediocre literature
if one has a vivid enough imagination--is not mere projecttion, IMO). This
vividness of experience led K. Burke to argue that literature provides us with
the "first rough draft of living," something which would make no sense if
verbals could not convey full expression of content and relationship. Clearly
Aristotle saw the potential for verbals to convey a broad range of meaning,
laying out his tri-part schema of ethos (appeals based on credibility of the
speaker as constructed within a given speech), pathos (appeals based on the
sources of happiness, pleasure, and pain for a given audience), and logos
(appeals based on perceived fact or "truths"). Modern work on immediacy also
suggests a wide capacity for verbals to convey emotive content. Immediacy
technically refers to the creation of a feeling of relationship and personal
contact with one's audience. There are scales to measure this, one in verbal
aspects and one in nonverbal aspects. Immediacy is conveyed verbally through
our pronoun choices (we versus I, our versus mine), references to shared
experiences, use of humour, introduction of personal topics or use of personal
examples, expressions of caring/concern for others, vividness in word choice,
and a variety of other cues. Certainly we do get some information nonverbally,
but think how much of this may be wrong. Our skills at lie detection are pretty
bad (generally no better than chance--and for people who are trained in lie
detection such as police investigators, the ability to accurately detect lies
actually goes DOWN because they overread cues and read deception where there is
none) and much of this is based on nonverbals. Our interpretation of nonverbals
cross-culturally (whether based on culture, ethnicity, gender, age, etc.) is
often erroneous, leaving the verbal aspect of far more importance than the
nonverbal. The work of the Palo Alto group (Watzlawick, Beavin, and Jackson, et
al.) was the first major attempt to divide the aspects of communication up into
content and relationship aspects and the rough-and-ready equation of content
with verbal and relationship with nonverbal is simply not sustainable as an
exclusive category system. Much of the nonverbal seems to be at a behavioral
rather than symbolic level, and seems to not be very well adapted to conveying
the more sophisticated expressions of emotion and relationship that are
possible in symbolic (especially verbal) interactions.So what is the point of
this--that we need to be careful not to let folklore (parallel in truth to the
other folklores such as  it
takes 7 years for chewing gum to digest in your stomache or masturbation will
make one insane) be the basis for our discussions of love (on the net or off of
it) or other facets of net relationships. (Is this a soapbox of mine? Ok, yes,
it is. My masters and doctoral work in Communication and Rhetoric carried a
speciality is language and symbolic interaction, esp. in terms of how we create
self and other in relationship. Am I feeling a need to credential here? Ok,
that too--my insecurities leap to the surface.....). I think a more
fruitful approach would be looking at how the language we type onto the screen
does convey emotion and relationship and connection--and it seems pretty clear
that it can do so in very powerful ways.It may not provide the same connection
the biological [hu]man in F2F (punned so nicely by Robert as face-to-face
and/or flesh-to-flesh) interaction does, but that does not mean that it is not
real or that it is not rich and vivid. Weren't some of the great romances
carried out through letters (Abelard and Heloise come to mind, but I may be
mistaken here)? If we work with what Steve and Marie have introduced in seeing
intimate relationships as a way to create/look into the face of God, we too are
brought back to the word ("In the beginning was the word, and the word was
God..."). So let us hear the word and give it credence as that great instrument
of consciousness that it is and presume that we as humans can evolve our
communication systems into new contexts, with new tools, and with unpredictable
results in the creation and recreation of ourselves and our relationships.
                Susan
self and other in relationship

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From hoon@APK.NET Thu May 02 01:22:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: on dragons, safety nets, and nonverbals
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:22:15 -0400

(Thank you Susan; a rich contribution.)

>but I think we don't always
>separate the challange of the ideas from a challenge of the personhood of
>whoever set forth the ideas.

Understatement?

It's complicated. Sometimes there is a lot of context and sometimes there's
not; in this group there is a tendency for participants to supply a lot of
personal backround which I think ups the ante, IMO.

Are there not two sides to this? We can allow ourselves to be vulnerable,
yes; but also we may end up just being naive.

***

Recently been reading the papers available online by Robert Maxwell Young,

(http://www.shef.ac.uk/uni/academic/N-Q/psysc/staff/rmyoung/papers/index.htm
l; especially by way of introduction: "Psychotic Anxieties In Groups and
Institutions" and "The Ubiquity of Psychotic Anxieties")

a British psychiatrist who has come online and been astonished (my
characterization,) by the implications of online self-expression framed by
psychoanalytic, especially Kleinian and object-relations-based, catagories.


As a Jungian, my frame is more optimistic, 'heroic', (and possibly can be
said to be more naive,) but Melanie Klein pointed at the echo of infantile
anxiety and aptitude as being the central unconcious motivator of all
thought and response.

***

Hmmm. It gets back to projection, one way or the other. And, why we happen
to be here whether it be framed by the wish to be gratified (Klein?) and/or
'naive' searching, or, (as James Hillman puts it,) the POTHOS of the
archetype, *how it moves us*.

More about this later. (Waiting for my partner to finish her term paper!)

***

Hillman:

"...our being is always metaphorical, always on two levels at once."

"Wherever one is, there is always the *other* by means of which we reflect
existence and because of whom we are always *more*, *other*, and *beyond*,
what is here and now."

"I am always somehow a stranger to myself and can never know myself except
through discovering the other which I fantasy to be somewhere else - so I
wander in search of him or her."

***

Wondering while Wandering...(or is it the other way around?)


Stephen

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Thu May 02 02:24:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 08:24:58 -0600

HooN,
To me, intimacy means that I am free to be who I am with another person.
How can I be who I am with only my words?  True, the blind, deaf, and
dumb "communicate," but would any of us trade the richness of our
non-verbals for that form of communication?  And if you mean to compare
cyberspace communication with the communication of the deaf or blind, I
would agree...they are analagous.  And, to continue the analogy, if what
you are saying is that those who communicate on the 'net do so because
they cannot any other way, similiar to deaf people who use sign language
because they cannot hear, this also makes sense to me.  But then let's
call a spade a spade, and recognize that 'net "intimacy" and
"communication" is only partial, the way that communcation for a deaf
person is only partial.  Being only partial, it cannot be complete or
whole.  But, if that is the best that a person can do, more power to
them.  I would no more deny sign language to a deaf person than
cyberspace intimacy to a person who seems unable to attain it in the
real, face-to-face world.  But let's not confuse it with the real thing.
BTW, you are technically correct.  The research supports that most of
communication is non-verbal.
Barbara

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Thu May 02 02:29:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: love, etc.
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 08:29:09 -0600

Wilbur,
I agree with your postings on love and life, you express it much more
eloquently than I could.
Barbara

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Thu May 02 03:20:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Love on a different plane..
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:20:25 -0600

Laurel,
you mention that your husband left because he could not effect the change
in you that your cyberlove did.  Since no one can change us (only we can
change ourselves), you might have more accurately stated that your
husband left because you did not change because of him, you only were
able to change because of your cyberlove.  And I can't help wondering if
that had more to do with what you brought to your cyber relationship vs.
what you brought to your marriage, than with the individual personalities
of your lovers.
Barbara

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Thu May 02 03:31:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:31:49 -0600

Stephen,
I don't understand what you mean by saying "that is conceit"?
Barbara

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Thu May 02 03:33:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:33:11 -0600

Stephen,
Yes, and because you have to use your imagination, what I say to you in
cyberspace takes on meaning *you* put into it, not meaning that *I*
intended; hence, not true communication.
Barbara

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Thu May 02 03:49:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: social microcosm
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:49:59 -0600

Marie,
thanks for your comments.  I do accept that this form of communication is
real, and different.  I just do not accept that it is intimate, because
it is not whole, and it may not be authentic.  In face to face, you have
more clues as to whether a person is being authentic; all the
non-verbals are congruent with the words, the physical plane is all
congruent, no one can say that they are a doctor without my being able to
check it out to see if it is true.
Barbara

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Thu May 02 04:03:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 10:03:13 -0600

Steven,
at the risk of you asking me to lighten up...
there may be some "non-verbal cues" in e-mail, but about 10% of what is
there in face-to-face.  Communication is two-way...what I send, and what
you receive.  If I send content only, there is much more room for your
interpretation, imagination, etc., and the odds are that what you receive
will *not be what I sent*.  Therefore, how can intimacy develop?  Yes, we
can have intimate feelings on the 'net, but not for the person we are
corresponding with, but with our image of who that person is.  True, this
happens in the physical world, too, but there is much less room for
misunderstandings when you have all the richness of the non-verbal
communication present.  So my only point is that intimacy is very hard to
achieve on the 'net because accurate understanding of my words is hard to
achieve without my non-verbals, and if you haven't really understood me,
how can you "know" me, and how can we be intimate?
Barbara

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Thu May 02 06:04:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dream Event
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 14:04:24 -0400

Walter,

I read your announcement of the private mailing list for <<a game, a party, a
celebration of dream life, and an experiment>> with great interest -- I have
already subscribed.  What a wondrous opportunity to make visible the
unconscious currents of the collective unconscious, to walk in Dreamtime!  I
read _Magister Ludi_ many many years ago, when I was immersed in reading
Hermann Hesse (and Thomas Mann and Lawrence Durrell and D.H. Lawrence); I
will find a copy and read it again.

This *experiment* resonates with who I was as well as who I am.  I have
experienced myself metaphorically on a inner level since I was very young --
an experience that found expression in my writings to myself, and in my
poetry (in fact, my second husband said reading my poetry made him afraid to
be my lover because it was not human!  Yes, I married him anyway, and kept my
poetry to myself.  But I digress).  I lost touch with that side of myself for
a long time, caught up in writing policies and procedures and memos
(neverending memos!) and using my intuition primarily to try to second-guess
the psychology of the bond market (with several notable successes).  The
world of work comes with its own culture and mindset and *language*, and the
world in which I worked had no place for dreams or metaphor or the sharing of
inner lived experience.  My innermost nature went underground for those
years; the past several years have been a fascinating journey of rediscovery
through meditation, guided imagery voyages (under hypnosis and in the
*disciplines* of psychosynthesis) and bodywork (Rolfing).  My graduate
studies provide a home for the exploration and articulation of the
ideological foundations of my worldview and personal belief system.  This
*dream event* sounds like an invitation directly to me from the universe.
 Thank you for bringing it to us.

On another note -- I read your response to Robert's disclosure of his
off-line relationship with more than a passing interest.  I am the *other* in
that relationship, which we have chosen not to hide here.  I admire Robert's
courage in making that disclosure -- which spoke directly to me, as well as
to the list -- and I wonder at the silence which followed your response to
him.  It is a risk, to bring our relationship to the group, and I wonder what
the consequences will be.  How will this change people's perceptions of me?
 Will I still be accepted here?  Will all my words now be suspect -- examined
for hidden meanings?  Will I be cast in the role of *the other woman* and
condemned for opening myself to this encounter?  Can the group accept me
anyway as I walk this path that leads into unknown places?  I hope so.  My
commitment to myself and to my attempts to "grow soul" will not permit me to
live underground anymore, and I'm glad that Robert's choice to be open here
allows me to do the same.

Robert, you wrote:

<<Where does this relationship head?  Only time will tell.  But, I have a
good feeling about myself in this relationship.>>

Yes, only time will tell.  And ... I, too, have a good feeling about myself
in this relationship.

Marie

_______________________________________________________________
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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Thu May 02 06:40:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 13:40:33 -0500

At 10:03 AM 5/1/96 -0600, Barbara (eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU) wrote:

>Steven,
>at the risk of you asking me to lighten up...
>there may be some "non-verbal cues" in e-mail, but about 10% of what is
>there in face-to-face.  Communication is two-way...what I send, and what
>you receive...So my only point is that intimacy is very hard to
>achieve on the 'net because accurate understanding of my words is hard to
>achieve without my non-verbals, and if you haven't really understood me,
>how can you "know" me, and how can we be intimate?

Barbara---

There are different forms of communication-at-a-distance.  No doubt
snailmail and email have their places...and certainly the latter narrows the
time interval between communications.  In my opinion, however, it is the
advent of internet relay chat software and the development of dedicated
servers and networks (effnet, dalnet, undernet, etc) which has provided the
real breakthrough in interpersonal electronic communication...at least with
respect to the exploration of the psychology of cyberspace (psyberspace) and
the potential for individual and group psychotherapy.  In particular, if you
haven't had the experience of online "real time" conversations, it is hard
for me to see how you can pronounce on whether or not "real" intimacy is
achievable via this medium.

I also think that your emphasis on the "nonverbal" aspects of communication,
misses a major point.  You seem to equate *nonverbal* with the sensory cues
obtained from touch, vision, smell, etc.  It is clear, however, that our
sensory systems quickly habituate to recurrent signal inputs...to the point
where we can no longer ascertain or differentiate recurrent "cues" without
conscious attention.  I suspect, in fact, that most people are inclined to
pay much less attention to nonverbal cues in their day to day communication
than you seem to believe...the reason is that such attention requires
continual work.   My area of academic interest, for example, focuses on the
development of a major nonverbal interface, the skin.  The skin is a
psychological organ as well as a physical barrier and a sensory surface.
Yet, in the medical field it is nearly totally transparent with respect to
its fundamental role as an organ of nonverbal communication.  Why is this
the case?  Why is it that the most accessible organ of the body...an organ
derived embryologically from the same tissue as the brain...why is this
organ so hard to "see" with respect to its role in communication and
psychological development?  I suspect it's because we have been habituated
to the nonverbal cues...they no longer inform us...they are beneath our
conscious attention.

This discussion brings me to the possibility of online intimacy.  How in the
world can I claim that intimacy is achievable in cyberspace without
skin-to-skin (face-to-face) contact and the myriad nonverbal cues associated
with this contact?  Personally, I believe that I have experienced a very
intimateand intense relationship with an online cyberpartner that I have
never seen....even in a jpg image or gif file.  This experience was not
consciously sought...it evolved through a process of mutual attraction and
it has created problems in both our lives.  Some of these difficulties were
born of naivete with respect to the power of this medium.  That is another
story, however.  For the purpose of this discussion, let me reiterate my
belief that this relationship and my consequent experience of intimacy is
without a doubt...REAL.

Now...how is this possible?  How can intimacy be achieved without physical
contact?  I suspect that you would claim it's not possible.  On the other
hand, I suspect that throughout human history the most rare and supremely
personal experiences of intimacy have been mainly spiritual in nature...that
there is no face-to-face contact involved...there are no verbal or nonverbal
cues...I suspect that such experiences are transfiguring and
transcendental....they are more "real" than real...that, in fact, such
experiences are quintessentially intimate and personal and the primary
result is a NEW VIEW of reality...a new form of perception.  Such personal
experiences, I believe, are achievable to greater or lesser degrees at the
interindividual and group level through the process of intimate personal
sharing in psyberspace.   Through such experiences we will develop a new
view of what is "real"...what is "permanent"...what is "required" for the
development of truly integrated and emotionally centered beings....such
experiences of intimacy will electrify our senses and give us new eyes to
see...new ears to hear....and new ways to touch the minds of others.

Steven

_______________________________________________________________
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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Thu May 02 06:43:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 13:43:46 -0500

At 10:03 AM 5/1/96 -0600, Barbara (eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU) wrote:

>Steven,
>at the risk of you asking me to lighten up...
>there may be some "non-verbal cues" in e-mail, but about 10% of what is
>there in face-to-face.  Communication is two-way...what I send, and what
>you receive...So my only point is that intimacy is very hard to
>achieve on the 'net because accurate understanding of my words is hard to
>achieve without my non-verbals, and if you haven't really understood me,
>how can you "know" me, and how can we be intimate?

Barbara---

There are different forms of communication-at-a-distance.  No doubt
snailmail and email have their places...and certainly the latter narrows the
time interval between communications.  In my opinion, however, it is the
advent of internet relay chat software and the development of dedicated
servers and networks (effnet, dalnet, undernet, etc) which has provided the
real breakthrough in interpersonal electronic communication...at least with
respect to the exploration of the psychology of cyberspace (psyberspace) and
the potential for individual and group psychotherapy.  In particular, if you
haven't had the experience of online "real time" conversations, it is hard
for me to see how you can pronounce on whether or not "real" intimacy is
achievable via this medium.

I also think that your emphasis on the "nonverbal" aspects of communication,
misses a major point.  You seem to equate *nonverbal* with the sensory cues
obtained from touch, vision, smell, etc.  It is clear, however, that our
sensory systems quickly habituate to recurrent signal inputs...to the point
where we can no longer ascertain or differentiate recurrent "cues" without
conscious attention.  I suspect, in fact, that most people are inclined to
pay much less attention to nonverbal cues in their day to day communication
than you seem to believe...the reason is that such attention requires
continual work.   My area of academic interest, for example, focuses on the
development of a major nonverbal interface, the skin.  The skin is a
psychological organ as well as a physical barrier and a sensory surface.
Yet, in the medical field it is nearly totally transparent with respect to
its fundamental role as an organ of nonverbal communication.  Why is this
the case?  Why is it that the most accessible organ of the body...an organ
derived embryologically from the same tissue as the brain...why is this
organ so hard to "see" with respect to its role in communication and
psychological development?  I suspect it's because we have been habituated
to the nonverbal cues...they no longer inform us...they are beneath our
conscious attention.

This discussion brings me to the possibility of online intimacy.  How in the
world can I claim that intimacy is achievable in cyberspace without
skin-to-skin (face-to-face) contact and the myriad nonverbal cues associated
with this contact?  Personally, I believe that I have experienced a very
intimate and intense relationship with an online cyberpartner that I have
never seen....even in a jpg image or gif file.  This experience was not
consciously sought...it evolved through a process of mutual attraction and
it has created problems in both our lives.  Some of these difficulties were
born of naivete with respect to the power of this medium.  That is another
story, however.  For the purpose of this discussion, let me reiterate my
belief that this relationship and my consequent experience of intimacy is
without a doubt...REAL.

Now...how is this possible?  How can intimacy be achieved without physical
contact?  I suspect that you would claim it's not possible.  On the other
hand, I suspect that throughout human history the most rare and supremely
personal experiences of intimacy have been mainly spiritual in nature...that
there is no face-to-face contact involved...there are no verbal or nonverbal
cues...I suspect that such experiences are transfiguring and
transcendental....they are more "real" than real...that, in fact, such
experiences are quintessentially intimate and personal and the primary
result is a NEW VIEW of reality...a new form of perception.  Such personal
experiences, I believe, are achievable to greater or lesser degrees at the
interindividual and group level through the process of intimate personal
sharing in psyberspace.   Through such experiences we will develop a new
view of what is "real"...what is "permanent"...what is "required" for the
development of truly integrated and emotionally centered beings....such
experiences of intimacy will electrify our senses and give us new eyes to
see...new ears to hear....and new ways to touch the minds of others.

Steven

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L




From hoon@APK.NET Thu May 02 10:08:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 18:08:23 -0400

Barbara (rhetorically) wonders,

>How can I be who I am with only my words?

Define *being*.

To me, that's the question begged in this discussion. Is being a matter of
information or communication?

What if words are an artifact of being?

What if what you are wearing today is an artifact of being?

What if your smell (today) is an artifact of being?

(etc.)

***

Each to their own...

***

My communication -at it's primest- is 100% no matter what the limitations.

***

>BTW, you are technically correct.  The research supports that most of
>communication is non-verbal.

Excepting where it *cannot* be non-verbal; epistemically speaking, the
catagorical distinction, i.e. 'apples and oranges'. (So, any study that
demonstrates most communication is non-verbal is obviously admitting a
multiplicity of modalities; such a study applied to this medium would just
as obviously prove that most of the 'communication' through email is
transmitted through text. As for the interpretive or imaginative component:
they are of paramount to communication contingent on text, words,
semantics, metaphor, context, blah blah blah. IMO <g> )

***

To paraphrase John Lilly: "What you believe is true, is true, for you."

Stephen

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From hoon@APK.NET Thu May 02 10:08:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 18:08:27 -0400

>Stephen,
>I don't understand what you mean by saying "that is conceit"?
>Barbara

Vain; imaginatively so! Our conceits are our (usually) unshakeable beliefs.

Stephen

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From hoon@APK.NET Thu May 02 10:08:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 18:08:31 -0400

>corresponding with, but with our image of who that person is.  True, this
>happens in the physical world, too, but there is much less room for
>misunderstandings

Thank God for the image and for those misunderstandings!

***

Is *real* communication predicated more on the sender's intention or more
on the data sent, verbally or non-verbally?

***

My answer should already be clear.

Stephen

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Thu May 02 10:40:35 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 16:40:35 -0600

HooN,
Sender's intent!  And why is it vanity to want to be understood?  Isn't
understanding, not misunderstanding, what communication is all about?  I
am really confused!
Barbara

_______________________________________________________________
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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Thu May 02 10:42:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: social microcosm
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 16:42:31 -0600

Wilbur,
I hope that you do not decide to unsubscribe, I enjoy your messages and I
think that you are very wise and astute in your perceptions.  I wouldn't
worry about the sensitive types on the list; feel free to speak your
mind, I'm sure that no one doubts your intentions, and * what you are
saying needs to be said.*  I, for one, agree with you!
Barbara

_______________________________________________________________
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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Thu May 02 13:21:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: == Dream Event Invitation ==
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 01:21:46 GMT

== Dream Event ==

This "event" will be an exploration of dream life, a celebration -- and an
experiment.

It will take place entirely on a private email mailing list.  During the life of
the list, we shall explore a dream -- provided by one of the participants and
selected by group process -- in some detail.  We will be looking into its
personal and archetypal meanings, and bringing them into focus on one of the
HipBone gameboards designed by Charles Cameron.

The process will run for approximately 6 weeks, starting on 10 May 1996.

This event is the result of an initial suggestion made by Charles Cameron of
HipBone Games, and will be hosted as a PsyberGroup by Walter Logeman of
Psybernet.

*

Who is invited?

All members of the Psybernet mailing list Psyber-L and the "spirituality in
games" discussion list Magister-L are warmly encouraged to join us -- and any
others who hear of this by word of mouth or screen, and who think this is for
them!  We hope to form a lively group of active participants.

*

Three phases of the Dream Event.

The first is the introductory phase, during which the participants will meet,
introduce themselves, connect, and learn about the process we shall be using.
This will be a time to *find a dream* that will form the basis for our event.

         This may well be a time of dreaming and sharing dreams -- or
         one dream may present itself clearly, early on in the process.
         In either case, we anticipate that the dream will speak its truths
         for the group as a whole, touching other participants as well as
         the dreamer.  This will be an time for us to listen together, to
         hear what is emerging in the life of our group as a whole.

         During this introductory phase, Walter will assist the group in
         the task of connecting and focusing to find our dream.  While
         this is going on, Charles will introduce the Game process and
         its history, and we will take a look at some examples of games
         in this tradition.

         Those of you who remember the book will see that the games
         draw their inspiration from the "Glass Bead Game" described
         by Hermann Hesse in his novel, *Magister Ludi*.

In the second phase the group as a whole will "amplify" the dream, by means
of discussion and the sharing of associations -- or the sharing of more
dreams.  Walter will guide us as the spontaneity of the group itself
unfolds this process.  During this phase, Charles will be working with the
group to map the dreamwork onto a game board: the game will be played in a
collaborative spirit under his guidance.

         Members of the group are encouraged to post any and all
         dreams they feel like posting, together with any comments,
         elaborations,  or questions they may have regarding other
         posters' dreams -- indeed, we should all feel free to go off on
         tangents, and form threads that may have nothing to do with
         the dreams at all...

         We will be on the lookout for those comments on individual
         dreams which ring most true for the dreamer in question.  At
         the same time, we shall explore the possibility that our dreams
         speak to the group as a whole -- that they are not "exclusive"
         to any one individual.

This phase concludes when the ten games moves are completed.

The third phase is that of closure -- a time to share our experience and
learning.

         The event is both tightly structured and very fluid.

         We start on a given date, we will conduct the phases of the
         group as planned, we shall make the ten moves on the game
         board, taking advantage of the heightened impact that the
         structure of the board itself imposes: these are the structures
         which will focus our enthusiasm.

         Within these structures, we will allow both the group and the
         game to develop their own rhythms.  We shall see just how the
         *virtual music of our dreams* will play itself to a close.

Walter will facilitate so that the group closes on a specified date.

*

We intend to use this process as a vehicle for honouring the dreams and the
dreamers.  We look to making this event a celebration.  There will be a
place to attend to feelings as they arise in the work.  These are our aims
-- this dream event is the first of its kind, and we are in the hands of
the gods as to how things will turn out.  We can promise each other nothing
more than that we will attend to the process to the best of our ability.

Your hosts for this event will be Charles Cameron and Walter Logeman.

         Charles is a poet and writer who believes that "sacred games"
         have an important part to play in the emergence of a spirituality
         for the next millennium.  Charles draws his inspiration for the
         HipBone family of games from Hermann Hesse's "Glass
         Bead Game".  His next dream?  To design an interactive game
         along the lines of MYST...

         Walter is a psychotherapist in private practice in Christchurch,
         New Zealand. His main therapeutic training is in psychodrama
         and he has an interest in the work of Carl Jung.  Walter is the
         originator of the Psybernet project, which explores "psyche in
         cyberspace", and which is hosting this event as the first in a
         series of PsyberGroups.  Other events are in the planning
         stages.

A game, a party, a celebration of dream life and an experiment...  We
invite you to join us.

*

Subscription and General List Information

The list is now open for subscription -- and early subscriptions will be
particularly helpful in giving us a sense of the interest in this project.
After 10 May, no further subscriptions will be processed, and whoever is on
the list at that time will be a member of our "closed" group of
participants.

Given the sensitive nature of dream work, we would strongly request that
participants *not* share the posts on this list with anyone outside the
group.  This is especially true of the electronic distribution of these
posts.  It is, however, understood that sharing with due respect for
confidentiality may on occasion be appropriate with spouses, intimate
friends and therapists.

The proceedings of this list will be archived.  Only the members of the
group will be able to access the complete archives.  These can be retrieved
at any time, and instructions will be posted to the group along with the
introductory materials.  They will be available for one week after the
group closes, and then withdrawn.

It is our intention, however, to prepare a summary of the event, including
an overview of the group process and the final text of the game itself, so
that this can be shown by group members to interested friends, and used in
the further development of projects of this sort.

When this summary has been prepared it will be presented to the group in
draft form, and at that time group members will be invited to say whether
they wish their own contributions to be presented anonymously or by name,
and to suggest any other changes that will preserve both the privacy of the
individuals concerned and the depthful expression of the event as a whole.

The final text of the summary will then be archived separately, and made
available to others on both the Psybernet and HipBone home pages.

To subscribe, send email to:

LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM

and write in the text:

Subscribe Group-L Your full name.

_______________________________________________________________
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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Thu May 02 13:27:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: social microcosm
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 21:27:28 -0400

Barbara,

I must admire the strength of your conviction!  In many ways, we are in
agreement.  I cannot dispute many of your statements.  There are no nonverbal
cues in cyber-communication, and nonverbal cues *are* one of the most
important ways we communicate in the *real* world.  And, yes, it is easier to
deceive in this world -- at least where externals are concerned.  But does
this invalidate the experience of intimacy in cyberspace?  I don't think so.

You wrote:

<<I do accept that this form of communication is real, and different.  I just
do not accept that it is intimate, because it is not whole, and it may not be
authentic.>>

I repeat my earlier words -- that it is not always possible to know if
another person is authentic in the *real* world, either -- nor is it always
possible to build a *whole* relationship.  People express different sides of
who they are in different relationships, and my experience in that
relationship will be more or less *holistic* as a result of the choice of
expression they make, and my choice of how much of myself I will reveal.  In
an ideal world, everyone would find people in their lives who rejoice in
their total being, but I fear that this is not an ideal world.

People need connection.  *I* need connection -- to be seen, and heard, and
held, and cared about.  My need for connection -- for at least a semblance of
intimacy -- led me in the past to be less than who I am in order to try to
sustain two marriages to men who were threatened by or indifferent to some
aspects of the person I am.  I pruned away many of the offending bits and
pieces; others withered away from lack of sunlight and nourishment.  Was I
authentic in these relationships?  Yes -- but it almost killed me.  I was
losing vital parts of my being -- parts I suppressed willingly, in a sincere
belief that giving my marriage what it needed to survive would ensure that
the marriage would provide what I needed in return.  Both of these men (that
I loved, in my way, as they loved me) tried to do the same thing.  Our needs
were too different.  In order to give them what they needed, I had to deny
too many pieces of who I wanted to be in the world.  And the more I denied
these pieces -- so the marriage could be *whole* and *authentic* -- the less
whole I was as a person.  I was dying, and I had to make a choice.  I chose
to be alone rather than hold on to relationships that sustained only a small
part of me.

Was I with the wrong men?  Definitely.  Good men, both of them, but not men
with whom I could be myself.  Do I assume that this reflects some deficiency
in me, that I was not able to find someone to love me as I am?  I don't
believe that.  The fickle hand of fate plays a role here, and the caprious
swirls of circumstance and opportunity.  I simply have not been fortunate
enough to meet the *right* person.

In some ways, these so-important nonverbal cues are at least partly to blame
for marriages such as mine.  How many of us fall in love out of *chemistry*
without really getting to know the person we suddenly can't live without?  By
the time we get around to talking about values, goals, beliefs, and preferred
lifestyles -- it is often too late.  We have fallen in love with a mirage,
and wake up years later to find we have married a stranger.

Does this mean I would rather have a cyber-relationship than one in *real*
life?  Not in the least!  I want a holistic relationship, with intimacy at
all levels -- physical as well as intellectual, emotional, and spiritual.
 That may never happen in my life, and solitude is a lonely place to live.
 If I find someone in cyberspace that I can share myself with, should I walk
away because this reality doesn't have all the pieces of the one in which I
am alone?  That makes no sense to me.

I hope we can continue to agree and disagree here, Barbara -- even if our
encounter can never be an intimate one!

Marie

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From hoon@APK.NET Thu May 02 15:29:07 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 23:29:07 -0400

>HooN,
>Sender's intent!  And why is it vanity to want to be understood?  Isn't
>understanding, not misunderstanding, what communication is all about?  I
>am really confused!
>Barbara

Sender's intent. Doesn't this open up the whole field, sts?

How do you know when you are understood?

Have you ever intended to miscommunicate; and what field does miscommunication
refer to, or dance in?

What is the imaginal element in understanding, or transmission of meaning?

What are the unconscious factors?

What are the instinctual factors?

What are the ideological factors?

How much is our receptive capacity, either in multi-modal communication or
in textual communication contingent on our conscious and unconscious
beliefs, our psychological conditioning, our education, (etc.) ?

Intending to be understood, what factors are we able to determine and 'control'?

How do you know when you've understood another person? [+]

***

Just a few questions about what communication may be *all* about.


Stephen



[+] The parlor game where you start a sentence at person A and proceed
around the circle to person M, at which points, somehow, *dollars* had
become *donuts* comes to mind.

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Thu May 02 17:40:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: nature of communication/intimacy
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 00:40:38 -0500

Steve--what a beautifully intimate portrait of intimacy you present, an
intimacy not limited to the base senses (base as in fundamental, not lower),
but an intimacy of the mind and soul.

Marie--I for one am delighted to have you here. Your postings touch me at a
deeply intuitive level, your metaphors strike resonances of the heart--I
 *feel* rather than just *think* as a result of what you say. Thank you for
 the gift of yourself here.

Barbara, Stephen, et al.--
        What is *true* communication, *real* communication? Is it based on the
sender's intent, the receiver's interpretation, the data of the message in
between, the fidelity of the medium conveying the message, the breadth of
senses involved in transmitting or registering the message? Certainly this is
once of the most hotly debated issues in the discipline of Communication--and
truth seems to show no sign of making an appearance. Can one not not
communicate? Is behaving (mostly nonverbal) the same as communicating? Strong
advocates of many positions exist; however, there does seem to be consensus
that at least the perception of intent/motive is required. In other words, true
communication involves at a minimum interpreting data as if it were intended to
communicate something. There also seems to be fair consensus that the sender's
intent cannot be the sole criteria for defining *real* communication because NO
ONE, repeat NO ONE other than the sender can ever fully know his/her own intent
in communicating a given message--and it is even questionable if as senders we
even know the full story behind a message. Legally there are a number of
circumstances where intent is NOT the deciding factor--sexual harassment, for
example (Doug may not think that his casually putting his arm around Jen's
shoulder is harassment and may not even intend it in a conscious way, but if
his behavior is interpreted as harassment and creates an hostile and
intimidating environment for Jen as a result of this behavior, it is sexual
harassment.) What we have available to operate with are ONLY our
interpretations of meaning, including attributions of motives, based on our
perceptions of the incoming message in its personal, social, cultural,
historical context. The machine metaphor which suggests we are only looking at
message fidelity from one transmitting device to another receiving device (like
sending radio transmissions from station WYSO to my car radio) just doesn't
work for us sloppy, projecting, symbolically processing critters called humans.
In the 20's I.A. Richards addressed the sloppiness of the system in his
definition of rhetoric as "the study of misunderstandings and its remedies;"
Alfred Korzybski, the founder of General Semantics, was also vitally concerned
with the level of misunderstanding inherent in our communications and sought a
method of clarifying language "toward greater sanity." We can never really
check out all the assumptions that we bring to or carry away from an
interaction--to think that F2F magically facilitates this process and
eliminates misunderstandings is naive.  Barbara--how can you check out in F@F
if someone is a doctor or not? Is it tatooed on his/her forehead and thus
available for viewing? Does she carry around a diploma (which culd easily be
faked) of authenticity? It can't be by relying on the non-verbals--how else
would the celebrated cases of physicians practicing in several hospitals
(without benefit of M.D because they fooled everyone who questions they in F2F)
or professors professing without the Ph.D. they claimed to have have come to
be.
        Most disturbing in this discussion is the claim from Barbara that
communication without all senses fully intact is not real communication
("communication for a deaf person is only partial", "it's just the best they
can do," "let's not confuse it with the real thing"). Fact of the matter is
that ALL of us are differently abled when it comes to communication and if it
is full use of the senses that is the criteria for true communication, none of
us would qualify. What gall to suggest that communication for one who is deaf
is only partial--or to imply the same for one who is blind!! The channels may
be different that for others, but the communication is no less true or real. To
claim so smacks of the arguments in the past that the deaf, the mute, the blind
were not truly human because they couldn't "real-ly" communicate. Modality is
happenstance and may include convenience or inconvenience in connecting with
someone else, but it cannot, should not be the factor in defining the nature
 of communication--epistemology (as ways of knowing) does not determine
ontology (nature of being). It is tautology , in part, that less ability in one
sense leads to greater ability in another. Thus one who is blind who can by
touch distinguish between a $1, $5, and $20 could legitimately claim that those
of us who cannot do this do not truly communicate because our sense of touch is
so stunted (or rather habituated, as Steve suggests). Technologies, according
to Marshall McLuhan, are extensions of our senses and thus allow us to adapt to
our differential abilities (rather than insisting that someone who lacks is
"disabled")--each extension brings heightened acuity in one area and lowered
acuity in another. This shifting should not act as a yardstick for what is or
is not tru communication, but instead as a window for multiple modes for
communicating. Close your eyes, Barbara--you may lose the visuals, but over
time, you will begin to hear far more aurals than you ever imagined. Or open
your eyes--and your intuition with it, and begin to see the auras of each
person around you, auras of spirit that are very likely to be carried in seed
form in the words spoken/keyboarded by that person (Stephen--what a neat
concept --meaning as "word seeds"!). We each are capable of true
communication--and by extension the intimacy which is bred of communication and
connection, even if it be carried out through very different senses and/or
extensions of these senses.
                        Susan

Oh, Robert--thank you for the a-ha. After struggling for several years in the
relationship-that-has-ended to achieve authentic dialogue, I have only just now
realized from you that it was legitimate that the dialogue might end up
highlighting differences and NOT creating the unity of self/other that I had
been seeking. Rhetoric may be "compensatory for division" (K. Burke), but maybe
sometimes the compensation package just ain't good enough. :-)  Guess I had
always just assumed that earnest, authentic dialogue brought us together.
Back to the drawing board for some of my basic philosophies of life!

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu May 02 17:49:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: social microcosm
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 05:49:36 GMT

Barbara you say
<
it is not whole, and it may not be authentic.  In face to face, you have
more clues as to whether a person is being authentic; all the
non-verbals are congruent with the words, the physical plane is all
congruent, no one can say that they are a doctor without my being able to
check it out to see if it is true.
Barbara
>
so this is the seeing is believing method of validation. My experience in
cyberspace has been much different partly because I am a kinesthic processer,
very little visually, partly because we were all in a school program on
transformative learning and partly because we all embrace alternative ways of
*seeing* and were researching a lot of this. I find that once I expanded my
*space* framework I could read people's energy pattern over distance as well
as I have f2f. People's experience f2f from reports were enriched by the f2f
after meeting first on-line and often communication was exascerbated f2f,
meaning something in the f2f was habitual and people resorted to their habits
while the on-line experience we all had to explore different ways of
communicating and over time developed norms and shorthands bordering on a
different languaging...tone a big issue and humor being very difficult. I see
humor in most everything but had great difficulty every time I wanted to
express it. People were *Very* serious. F2F I would have been able to express
this very authentic part of me which was usually misunderstood on-line.

For me sensing is believing...different strokes, eh?
Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu May 02 18:04:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 06:04:46 GMT

Yes, Stephen,
<  Through such experiences we will develop a new
view of what is "real"...what is "permanent"...what is "required" for the
development of truly integrated and emotionally centered beings....such
experiences of intimacy will electrify our senses and give us new eyes to
see...new ears to hear....and new ways to touch the minds of others.

Steven>

And exploring we will go...it is my continued frustration with discussing
this cyber experience that we transfer our experience of other in this case
f2f and then measure the cyberspace experience in relations to f2f. This
reminds me of the medical professions research practice of using males for
research and then hold females against this norm.Or the transfer of the
marketing model of the yellow pages to here.  Though this measurement based
in generalization is imbedded in our western culture,Doesn't work for me when
thinking about cyberspace, nor has it been my experience.But then I admit to
fantacizing that I was vasco de gama or Louis and Clark. Cyberspace is a
place to explore for me. Seems to me iff we take our experience of gravity to
outer space and act out of gravity could be a problem. To explore outer space
requires using the universal principles of outer space. Thus for me the same
with inner space which is what I experience here.I'm fascinated to discover
the universal principles of inner space. Going to be fun discovering them, at
least for me.

Judith



--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
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                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu May 02 18:12:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 06:12:05 GMT

Barbara and Stehen, if I may v enture in here
<HooN,
Sender's intent!  And why is it vanity to want to be understood?  Isn't
understanding, not misunderstanding, what communication is all about?  I
am really confused!
Barbara>

I think there is an underlying element to wanting to be understood and that
is wanting to be acknowledged...this has been my experience, of course I
could be misunderstanding :-)

Judith

--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu May 02 18:16:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: social microcosm
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 06:16:49 GMT

For me Marie it was the way he held his cigarette, and me an opera singer
shouldda known the smoke would eventually choke me ;-)
<
In some ways, these so-important nonverbal cues are at least partly to blame
for marriages such as mine.  How many of us fall in love out of *chemistry*
without really getting to know the person we suddenly can't live without? >

Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Thu May 02 19:38:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Blind on the Withinside...
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 08:38:59 +0100

Judith Writes:

> Thank you for aarticulating what this *me* internally sightless
> person couldn't verbalize.

I too am someone who has had difficulty with what others mean by
visualizing... and for a while said, "I can't do it, I think I lost that
facility when I began to enjoy mathematics around the age of six"...

I was once a guinea pig for Tim Gallwey's book, "The Inner Game of Skiing",
a complete novice on whom he could try out his techniques, and I remember
him saying he was going to ski down the hill, and when it came to be my
turn I should visualize him doing it... and I said I couldn't.

          "You can't *what*?"
          "I can't *see* images in the mind's eye."

I thnk he was just a little flustered, and didn't quite believe me, but he
pressed on anyway.

          "But you're a *poet*!"

That was part of the problem -- William Blake makes it pretty clear
somewhere that from his point of view, only those for whom the "inner
picture" is brighter and more sharply delineated than what is seen outside
are really *seeing*, really in contact with soul...  And I've somehow lost
the capacity *entirely*, probably because I got so good at abstract
thinking...

          "Look at the coyote..."
          "What coyote?"
          "Imagine a coyote crossing the snow there... he just disappeared
into the woods.  *How many legs did the coyote have*?"
          "Four."
          "How do you know?"
          "Well, I could see the coyote as if he was painted in water on
glass... completely transparent, in other words, but as though I could at
least glimpse the movement of the brush strokes..."

I am still piss poor at "visualization", but I have come to terms with it
somewhat.  When the topic comes up, I now speak either of "painting in
water on glass" or say that the picture is there, it's as though it's
behind me, and I can sort of reach out with tentacles of intuition and
"read" it if need be...  But I certainly don't process this kind of thing
the way many others do.

> When I closed my eyes or when I dreamed I saw in a felt sense.

I don't believe in my case it's a matter of "felt sense" either, assuming
that to be a description of a kinesthetic sensing...  though it's something
close enough that I'm most appreciative of Judith's comments....  in my
case its, its, I reach for words here...  I *think* it's that my inner eye
is trained to the patterns of things...  to a sort of geometrical sense
that reads symmetries and rhymes between ideas... something that's easily
seen in much of my poetry, and even more clearly in my games...

In fact <flash> the games I've designed are pretty much the expression of
exactly this "weakness" as my own personal style of meditation...

I used to say, I *think* I may see with eyes closed in the causal rather
than the astral realm...  Still not sure whether this is so, I'm a little
hazy on "realms" in general...

> You just see the pictures before they become pictures.

What a remark!  Terrific!

I could certainly say that I see ideas before they become ideas... there's
even a Sanskrit term for it, "sphota", that I am very fond of (see James
Powell, *The Tao of Symbols*, for further details)... that's what a poet
does, sits at the mirroring pool inside, waits for it to still, for ideas
to *begin* to rise to the surface...  all day long...  fishing the void...

So thanks, Judith.  Big thanks...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

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From AThomas561@AOL.COM Thu May 02 22:00:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I am back, I hope:  from Alyss Thomas
From: Alyss Thomas <AThomas561@AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 06:00:08 -0400

i accidentally got deleted off the list, and various responses i made to your
replies in my first messages didn't get through, i think due to a problem
with my server. Anyway this is a test of whether it's working again.  I
wasn't just ignoring your messages.

We were having a discussion about metaphor, the transformative potency of
giving someone a metaphor that exactly encapsulates and at the same time
rtransforms something. Something we can do for each other here I should
think. My situation at the moment is i'm still new to psyberspace and hopeful
that my contacts here can be meaningful without becoming addictive; something
about bringing more meanining, focus and interconnectedness to life in my
workroom... to which self doubt and feelings of lostness and isolation are
frequent visitors. :>) Alyss

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From judithb@sbc1.com Fri May 03 01:22:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: nature of communication/intimacy
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 13:22:13 GMT

Susan,
Thank you for aarticulating what this *me* internally sightless person
couldn't verbalize. Someone recently asked Stevie Wonder what the advantage
of being blind was and he said something like *I can truly see who people
are."
In my life prior to the early 70's I didn't know that I was different. When I
closed my eyes or when I dreamed I saw in a felt sense. Made sense when the
lights went out one couldn't see. I know know differently. However, at the
time I didn't know this I just thought no one saw when they closed their
eyes. I was merrily going along then doing *meditation* and *my version of
visualization* when the new age movement started talking about visualization
and I realized people *saw* when they closed their eyes. Egad! A blow to my
belief system and for awhile I was devistated and thought I would never be
able to manifest since I couldn't see. Well, along came a teacher who one
evening after the meditation and everyone going around the room describing
their Cecil b DeMill moments, came up beside me and very quietyly said *don't
be disturbed. You just see the pictures before they become pictures.* It was
my Helen Keller WaWa moment.

<Guess I had
always just assumed that earnest, authentic dialogue brought us together.
Back to the drawing board for some of my basic philosophies of life!>
And it did from my perspective, Susan.
Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Fri May 03 06:38:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: an entanglement of souls
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 14:38:00 -0400

Walter,

Thank you for your words of acceptance.

You wrote:  <<The power of the Internet helps us make links like never before
...  I guess we all feel the force of people's words on the screen here in
some way.>>

You reminded me of these words by Thomas Moore:

<<Every relationship ... is an entanglement of souls.  The gift in this
entanglement is not only intimacy between persons, but also a revelation of
soul itself, along with the invitation to enter more deeply into its
mysteries.  What better expresses the point of human life than engagement
with this soul -- with its manifest and hidden qualities, its mysterious
alchemies and transformative pieties?  If we can find the whole world in a
grain of sand, we can also find the soul itself at the small point in life
where destinies cross and hearts intermingle.>>

As I read the words people write here, I feel that I stand in relationship
with the soul of another.

Susan wrote: <<Marie ... I *feel* rather than just *think* as a result of
what you say.  Thank you for the gift of yourself here.>>

Susan -- I, too, have been moved to emotion as well as thought by your words.


The gift of self.  The gift of soul.  Here, where the power of the Internet
helps us make links like never before -- here, at this small point in life
where destinies cross and hearts intermingle in a vibrant dance of words on a
screen.

Soul-making, this.

Marie

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri May 03 07:56:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Links
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 19:56:21 GMT

Marie, Robert and all,

Great sharing from you two.  Whatever happens, it -feels right-  that
you are speaking so openly here.  Thanks for the trust, I hope we can
honour it.  I will do my best with that for sure.

Many thoughts going through my mind today, connected with events here
. . .

The power of the Internet helps us make links like never before.
Links are native to the medium.

I guess we all feel the force of people's words on the screen here in
some way.  I think of Robert and Marie, and how this linking might
impact.  In quite a different way I feel very satisfied with how
Charles and I worked on the dream event together, our posting of the
invitation shows the results of a working relationship that has been
happening off-list.  An experience that I am pleased to have, and I am
looking forward to our work together.

I can easily echo the words from the other posts; this feels right,
who knows what will happen.



Walter

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Fri May 03 10:43:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 16:43:20 -0600

Judith...
yes yes yes yes yes.....(ad infinitum)
Barbara

On Thu, 2 May 1996, Judith Buerkel wrote:

> Barbara and Stehen, if I may v enture in here
> <HooN,
> Sender's intent!  And why is it vanity to want to be understood?  Isn't
> understanding, not misunderstanding, what communication is all about?  I
> am really confused!
> Barbara>
>
> I think there is an underlying element to wanting to be understood and that
> is wanting to be acknowledged...this has been my experience, of course I
> could be misunderstanding :-)
>
> Judith
>
> --
> Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
>                   | THE online service for entreprenuers.
> judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
>                   | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Fri May 03 12:36:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: love of language
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 01:36:55 +0100

Alyss -- alphabetically -- Judith, Stephen, Susan, Walter, and others:

What a love, here, of language...  Since we are discussing metaphor,
poetics, and so forth, and proceeding towards the Dream Event which is so
closely bound up with metaphor and analogy, I'd like to pick up on two
recent uses of language here which strike me as reaching towards polyphonic
speech.

*

Stephen wrote:

> Wondering while Wandering...(or is it the other way around?)

By way of giving this remark some context, Stephen had just quoted James
Hillman:

::  I am always somehow a stranger to myself and can never know
::  myself except through discovering the other which I fantasy to be
::  somewhere else - so I wander in search of him or her.

Now...  suppose for a moment that we had two mouths -- as we have two eyes,
ears, nostrils and so forth... Stephen or Hillman might then have said:

::  so I wander in search of him or her.

and

::  so I wonder in search of him or her.

simultaneously.  A choir of speakers could do it, a duet of persons can do
it...

And suddenly language is able to open up in a new way, a single sentence
can bifurcate into two "harmonious" parts for a moment, then resume its
singularity, a double meaning and double resonance can be admitted for a
moment into discourse...

Myself I think that's quite lovely -- I am very fond of "wander" "wonder"
in any case -- and it makes me want to introduce you to a relatively recent
coinage of my own, "stereophany":

::  The sense of increased depth and presence (as with the "stereo
::  effect" in music ) which occurs when two very similar words or
::  ideas are held simultaneously in imagination.  The word derives
::  from "stereophony" and "epiphany" / "theophany".

Stephen's two words "wander" and "wander" could thus be described as
providing a wonderful stereophany.

*

Then, too, Judith wrote today:

> each of us will bring our specific knowledge to the circle to work
> on personaluniversal work.

I have the idea that universe as we perceive it is full of binary
oppositions which we name -- "dark" "light" and so forth.  Judith's word
"personaluniversal" -- which Walter also commented on -- surely "names" one
of these oppositions, though an unusual one.  And again, I have the sense
that if we could make duets in speaking, one voice of Judith's would have
been pronouncing "personal" while the other spoke "universal"...  again, a
polyphonic moment in an otherwise monophonic sentence.

Aand again, this is something that I've been thinking about a great deal,
this business of opposite pairs of words, and feeling the need of a word to
*refer* to all word-pairs of this sort, I coined the word *solunary*, which
I define as:

::  Two terms (such as sol and luna) which in juxtaposition include
::  cosmos by affording it a pair of opposing foci..

Useful, no?  Judith's term "personaluniversal" is, I believe, a solunary term...

*

"Coinages", I called them: new words, neologisms.  But "coinages" says it
best, because you can test a new minted coin on your teeth, you can try
these words on your tongue...

With best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri May 03 13:54:48 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Metaphor  [was Re: I am back, I hope:  from Alyss Thomas]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 01:54:48 GMT

Alyss

Welcome back!


> We were having a discussion about metaphor, the transformative potency of
> giving someone a metaphor that exactly encapsulates and at the same time
> transforms something.

I can't recall that aspect of the discussion!  But what a good way of
putting it.  I am linking it with the discussion on Blind Within.  I
see no difference between metaphor and the images I make within.
Maybe I am a visualizer.  I look at this screen, but I might as well
be blind, because I see only images of this gathering, the person who
I write to, or some image that captures the theme of the discussion.
I would not call it Cecil B de Mile . . .  coming to think of it, it
could be!  However we are not in a grand epic at the moment, this is
closer to "My Dinner with Andre"

You see, I don't think my metaphor quite captures it -- I would love
to hear someone name the movie that has the essence of Psyber-L.  That
would do what you mention, encapsulate and transform.

> Something we can do for each other here I should
> think.

I hope someone does come up with the movie -- I'd go and see it
tonight!

On this power of metaphor to capture what _is_ and to then transform
at the same time, I think of the psychodrama methd, where there is an
emphasis on naming roles.  Let me quote Moreno (Psychodrama Vol 1 p
153) on what he calls a role:


::      Role can be defined as the actual tangible forms
::      which the self takes


This is almost a technical use it word, as it has no hint of "mask".
Each time we name a role we are making a little poem.  I have many
occasions to do this in groups.  Once the role is named accurately it
names the whole group as well.  For example, if we call someone "A
Benevolent Queen"  then we immediately see all sorts of other
characters the "Loyal Subjects" and so on.  Naming the roles enables
them to be enacted more fully, to be explored.

This naming, in metaphor, of what we are up to here has been happening
quite a bit.  Some metaphors won't fit.  (we are not in a Cecil B De
Mille epic),  PsyberNauts on a PsyberShip ?   Not quite it.  I think
you are onto something -- a good metaphor is accurate and it would
transform.



Walter

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From judithb@sbc1.com Fri May 03 13:58:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Blind on the Withinside...
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 01:58:13 GMT

<
So thanks, Judith.  Big thanks...>

My pleasure Charles. When I began studying healing, I found that within the
group of mostly women  each had a particular skill. I had no idea what mine
was in terms of energy but I've learned. I too sense the patterns and work in
a sort of connect the dot framing where the *picture* emerges.  We would work
in groups on a patient and I found that the place I could work was at the
feet and I sort of *knew* what had to be done and then I would direct the
others who would then be my *eyes* and tell me what the auraenergy patterns
were doing. It became a collaboration of all of us.

My dream is to have each know their skilltalent and bring it to the table. I
have just recently been directed to fomr a fractal of 6 women. The comment
after I brought them together was how unique and totlly different each woman
was. It is developing but it seems to be that each of us will bring our
specific knolwedge to the circle to work on personaluniversal work. When I
coach people moving thru transition I look to find those cultures sacred
rituals which resonate to the person so they can develop their own personal
process of coming to knowing. This is to say it is about acknowledging our
individual ability to tap into the collective knowing.

Anyway acknowledging difference is a sacred value for me and since I have
been so different than the norm, I guess I look for ways to bring what I have
to the moment. There must be some reason I'm here;-)

Anyway Charles the world needs the non linear, pattern sensing people, to
navigate what is coming. I always thot it would be easier if I could see the
image sort of a short cut, but I found that the picture got in my way. I'm
much more comfortable with geometry too.

Interesting experiencing on-line, eh? It's all in the sound which is what
poetry is about for me.

and yes
<I could certainly say that I see ideas before they become ideas... there's
even a Sanskrit term for it, "sphota", that I am very fond of (see James
Powell, *The Tao of Symbols*, for further details)... that's what a poet
does, sits at the mirroring pool inside, waits for it to still, for ideas
to *begin* to rise to the surface...  all day long...  fishing the void...>
yes and yes

judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Fri May 03 14:08:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Blake
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 02:08:45 GMT

Charles you write
<
That was part of the problem -- William Blake makes it pretty clear
somewhere that from his point of view, only those for whom the "inner
picture" is brighter and more sharply delineated than what is seen outside
are really *seeing*, really in contact with soul...  And I've somehow lost
the capacity *entirely*, probably because I got so good at abstract
thinking...>

what is it about Blake for you guys :-) I have a problem with someone
conjecturing about whether or not I am *really in contact with soul*. I may
not be but I don't think it has to do with *pictures*.

<And I've somehow lost
the capacity *entirely*, probably because I got so good at abstract
thinking...>>

I do think it has something to do with creating the pathway. I have been
working in meditation in coming in *closer* to see if I can conect to the
images. But I'm in the very beginning of experimenting.

I will say not seeing images makes it difficult for me doing shamanic journey
work for people. Just like dreams I can't remember the sensing and having
images would be a great help shorthand wise. But then this might be my age
and short term memory loss;-)

judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Fri May 03 14:12:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Jung in Psyberia
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 02:12:52 GMT

<Judith...
yes yes yes yes yes.....(ad infinitum)
Barbara>
and yes barbara acknowledgment  which I work with people to self-acknowledge.
This is why I have a bee up my butt over the research thing. Tends to negate
not acknowledge. You communicate very clearly for me and would that I could
*see* images...would certainly be convenient:-)
regards,
judith

--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri May 03 14:35:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Blind on the Withinside...
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 02:35:17 GMT

Judith,

> My dream is to have each know their skilltalent and bring it to the table.


~ Skilltalent ~

I was about to say I am deaf on the inside, but no.  However movies
inside and out, have music as background.  I want the image!  And that
is what I offer to others too, am a seer.  I am realizing that not
everyone can accept what I offer, nor can I see what they have.  We
need to use all the skilltalent we can find.  Are there translators?

I translate Venusian to Martian and vice versa.  I do it every day in
the couple work I do.  Martian is my native tongue of course, but
women appreciate my fluency.

I think I need someone to translate non-visual poetry into a form that
communicates to me.  Charles has spoken of poetry being the science of
linking one consciousnes with another . . . (is that right Charles?)
and then I wonder why sometimes it does the opposite for me!  I think
it must be me, I should work harder at the poem, and sometimes that
helps especially with say Shakespeare's sonnets, but sometimes it is
futile.


About your women's fractal circle:
> It is developing but it seems to be that each of us will bring our
> specific knolwedge to the circle to work on personaluniversal work.

Sounds like a wonderful group.  I run a group in a circle at the
moment and will introduce the idea of each bringing their specific
skilltalent to the circle.  AND lets do more of it here!

BTW, what is fractal in this context?


~ personaluniversal ~

That is how I think -- but I have never had the word.  It is what I
have been encouraging here.  Through the personal work here we are
doing the more universal task of Psyber-L, exploring the psyche in
cyberspace.

And yes, as you said soulmaking.


> I always thot it would be easier if I could see the
> image sort of a short cut, but I found that the picture got in my way.

For many men affect has this quality of getting in the way.  The very
thing that is to the fore in their partner, and to them has the higher
value.  I am using this analogy to make sense of what you might be
speaking of.  I thought my images, whole movies, were quite non
linear, perhaps not?


Walter

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Fri May 03 15:46:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: prelude
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 23:46:26 -0400

Hello, everyone.

I came to PSYBER-L looking for an intellectual, and possibly a spiritual,
community.  A chance to speak with others about ideas, about psyche, about
the dimensions of this virtual reality that takes shape beneathe our words.
 As I do on several other lists, I expected to listen, and learn.  I found
much more: Judith, panning for gold; Walter's gentle facilitation and
evocative words <<the flow here lends, even demands to be seen as music and
dance>>; the poetry of Charles Cameron; Mila's quixotic exchange with Robert
about his <<alter-ego cat>>; Laurel's story of cyber relationship; Wilbur's
snowball.  This was a place in which I felt at home.  I was not looking for
more, but there was Robert ...

I have been thinking about what draws people to other people, especially in
this ephemeral land of words.  I think it is a human need to long for
connection, communion with another -- but what drives our response to a
particular person?  Let me ruminate *out loud* about this ...

Why this man ... why this voice?  Before all the synchronicities were known,
before a single word was exchanged, before the possibility of authentic *I -
Thou* dialogue was even considered -- why this man?  What words caught my
attention?

<<We need the morning and the songs of birds.>>

<<I have this habit of spinning webs from bits of incandescent light.>>

<<the essence of my *self* that transcends these bounded reflections.>>

Lyrical prose -- a cadence of expression I recognize as kin to my own -- a
language never spoken to another who replied in kind -- a rift in the barrier
that has always kept me apart from others.

<<Phillips ... sees this Internet domaine as a *new culture*, a domaine where
those who post create an image of themselves that is <<devoid of physical
form>> and that they are ((constructed and reconstructed by the people who
read their words.>>  This on-line world is described as a *social* dimension
in which words form the attraction and draw attention.  How does his
description fit with what we are discovering about the psychology of a
listserv?>>

Intelligence -- the allusion to a constructivist view of this <<domaine>> as
a culture formed by social consensus, created by those who inhabit it,
crafted in words -- the conscious creation of self -- interests that are mine
and understood by very few.

<<I am the threat to my marriage's continued existence.  The time I invested
... in my journeys through Cyberia would have been invested in other avenues
of distancing.  What matter the path we wander in our search, it is the
search itself that draws us on, the need for discovery, the need for filling
in the black holes of our psyche.>>

Distancing -- my own way of surviving in my marriages.  My own journey in the
words of another -- the path we walk looking for self, the need for
discovery, the need to fill the empty places within.

<<I see life in a different era, bohemian (Rilke), a time of dangerous
liasons, a mocking of convention.  Do we do much the same here?  Reality,
responsibility, morality.  Climbing the peaks with Zarathustra, laying with
Lou Salome, riding a motorbike with Pirsig, Rising the Tiger -- all
earth-bound experiences of the mind as I read.>>

One who enters the world of books in the way that I do -- one who comes alive
in these alternate realities -- a mind hungry for knowledge and experience --
one like me.

<<Je veux te bercer dans mes bras,
                                                  te soulager
                              en offrant mon coeur a le tien
                      un coeur legerement deguenille
                                                                  par des
annees perdues>>

A poet, like me, who speaks of nurturing and comfort, who knows of pain that
dwells forever in the heart.  A poet who speaks in the language of my
heritage, a language that sings always softly in my soul.

I wanted to know such a man, who spoke in the language of my intellect, and
my heart.  Who wrote words that echoed my soul.  I wrote an introduction to
the group -- and an invitation to the man.  His immediate response, on-list
and off-list, made me hope that he wanted to know a woman such as I.  My
words were real, and true -- not contrived to make an impression -- but they
were written in a language I would not have used so soon if I had not already
heard it spoken so clearly in his words, the language of a kindred soul, a
language I never expected to hear spoken on this earth.

Marie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri May 03 15:54:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: nature of communication/intimacy
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 21:54:52 -0600

Susan,

        I take pleasure in responding to this post.  You have found a way to
bridge the gaps that have grown in the *camps* of communication.

>        What is *true* communication, *real* communication? Is it based on the
>sender's intent, the receiver's interpretation, the data of the message in
>between, the fidelity of the medium conveying the message, the breadth of
>senses involved in transmitting or registering the message?

        If the questions you pose here are too be discussed with inellectual
honesty, without the need to support a pre-conceived thesis, we need to look
to our own dialogues.  Can we reflect on our own words and those of our
fellow Pysberians asking precisely these questions, probing for sender's
intent and receivers' interpretations, the relationship between the words
and the messages. Can we not search for the meanings which are heard yet not
voiced as text?

>What we have available to operate with are ONLY our
>interpretations of meaning, including attributions of motives, based on our
>perceptions of the incoming message in its personal, social, cultural,
>historical context.

        And since these are rarely spoken, rarely acknowledged in either f2f
or Internet communication domaines, it then lies with us to provide this
missing data, this *context* for communication.  Here in Psyberia (Psyber-l
land), we can play with learning to do just this not just *discuss* the
phenomenon.


>We can never really
>check out all the assumptions that we bring to or carry away from an
>interaction--to think that F2F magically facilitates this process and
>eliminates misunderstandings is naive.

        Agreed.  There are too many tragic stories of failed relationships,
failed dialogues, failed conferences where the apparent magic of f2f
*should* have prevented such failure.  People are not that psychic or gifted
with communication skills that they can avoid misunderstanding or being
misunderstood.

>Technologies, according
>to Marshall McLuhan, are extensions of our senses and thus allow us to adapt to
>our differential abilities (rather than insisting that someone who lacks is
>"disabled")--each extension brings heightened acuity in one area and lowered
>acuity in another. This shifting should not act as a yardstick for what is or
>is not tru communication, but instead as a window for multiple modes for
>communicating.

        I think that this is what we are trying to discover here, a way to
use this technology for communication.  Here we learn to listen to words (in
f2f we often miss them in an attempt to *hone* in on the non-verbals which
many believe tell the true tale, the true message).  As you point out, the
*AURALS* become clearer and with their presence, a deeper understanding is
possible (repeat: POSSIBLE).

>Oh, Robert--thank you for the a-ha.

        Avec plaisir.  This is just the start of some really interesting
study of Internet communication and relationships that arise from such
communication.

>I have only just now
>realized from you that it was legitimate that the dialogue might end up
>highlighting differences and NOT creating the unity of self/other that I had
>been seeking.

        Authentic dialogue can only help us understand, it can't necessarily
help us agree.  At least with authentic dialogue we might make fewer errors
in recognizing situations of differences.  It was good talking with you.

Robert de Cyberie

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri May 03 16:13:48 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Blind on the Withinside...
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 04:13:48 GMT

Judith, Charles,


> My dream is . . .


How do the blind within dream?


Walter

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Fri May 03 16:19:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Psyche of Psyber Relation -> Prelude
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 22:19:23 -0600

Dear Psyberian colleagues,

        I promised a peek at *our* move to relation as it seems important to
me, Marie, and Walter, that we work together in-group to understand the
nature of relationships in cyberspace.  Here is my opening to balance with
Marie's <<Prelude>>.

Why this woman ... why this voice?  PSYBER-L had become a safe meeting place
with others who gave me promise of spirited dialogue, intellectual
explorations, and a promise of potential friendships.  Mila, your voice was
a welcome (and still is - why so silent the keeper of my *cat* self?) into
my world as was Walter's.  I was met and felt validated by the two of you
very early in my journey here to PSYBER-L.  Others soon joined into dialogue
with me and others.  This is a space that welcomed and accepted.  Was I
looking for more?  Not consciously, but since there did exist within me that
which is empty and incomplete, *holes* if you will, it doesn't surprise me
now in retrospect that I indeed was open to another.
But why this woman, Marie?  Why her when others appeared before me sharing
confidences and offering what little of their *complete* selves is possible
through this medium?

April 20 - Re: Dawn & songs of morning:
<<In this lost and lonely weekend, I arise in the silent dawn to touch the
songs of morning....  Robert de Cyberie wrote: <<Who is this cyberspace?
Ghosts of physical bodies.>>  I offer the words of Henrik Ibsen ... >>

        These, her first words, mirrored my emotions of that weekend.  Her
words talked to me, acknowledged me.

<<I cross the boundary of this ephemeral faerieland with a
tremulous sense of anticipation and wonder.>>

<<the white she-wolf who runs like quicksilver lightning through
my blood, seeking passion and adventure; the impetuous gypsy who would dance
with wild abandon under the stars; the empty soldier looking for a refuge
from the war... the student, the philosopher, the poet, the wounded healer...
the woman, the child....>>

        Her words sing, show power and passion for the songs of life.  Her
words show kinship to thoughts within me.  Then I read her second post which
had been sent to the list immediately following the first.

April 20 - Intro - Marie Tondreau:

        Her name.  A name that resonates with a culture that is part of who
I am. Living in near cultural isolation in this empty part of Canada,
Saskatchewan, a place where I don't often get to hear the language I love
nor the thought patterns of a shared cultural belief, I began to wonder.
She had offered:

<<What a journey this will be!  Take my hand, and walk with me....>>

        Taking a leap, I asked (her being the newbie) if she wanted to read
past posts to PSYBER-L that I had written.  She had shown care for the words
of mine she had read during her short stay (at that point) here.  I asked
her in French off-list besides doing my usual *congenial host* post on-list,
a post that resonates with *dual* dialogue.  I spoke then knowing that: a)
the whole list was its recipient, and b) my words were also for her ears, an
invitation to extend the dialogue.

April 20 - :

<<Je voudrais beaucoup recevoir des messages (avec des poemes) que vous avez
envoyes au liste PSYBER-L.  C'est vrai, je suis francophone, et je peux lire
votre message avec les accents.>>

        Content?  The sound of the language, a culture.  The acceptance.  A
lot for *mere* words.  And, so, I risked listening, the moving to engage
with another knowing well the ephemeral nature of this domaine.

        I wanted to know a woman, a woman who spoke in the language of my
heritage, who spoke with intellect, with poetry, with her heart -- a woman
who spoke from her soul.

Robert de Cyberie

PS  Please accept my invitation, *our* invitation to visit these
perceptions.  As Susan spoke of in her earlier post, we need to know more
than just the words if we truly want to understand the messages of
communication.

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Fri May 03 22:47:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Encyclopedia was Re: e-mail comm expressivity
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:47:17 +0100

Psyberians:


Excellent post from Walter re the possibilities of internet mail as a
seeding ground for longer writing projects.  I too have been thinking along
these lines for a while, see many excellent posts that are already half way
to personal-definitive statements.  Many lists use the FAQ format...

> if there were short, delightful, respectful essay on classical topics
> that would enable us to go further.

...but as Walter implies, there's something to the essay format that goes
beyond the FAQ, which I personally find a little choppy...

*

I wonder in general whether we could spread the idea of writing a
"democratic net encyclopedia", by inviting people who post interestingly to
take their posts, expand and edit them into short essays, then gathering
and editing the result for publication in book and electronic forms...
This would be much more informal than current encyclopedias, more open to
"unofficial" viewpoints and personal tastes and preferences...

***  I'd like to ask that we all keep this under our hats for the present,
because I'm going to see if I can sell one or more of these ideas to an
agent... ***

More specifically, I think we could put together an "innernet" encyclopedia
which would deal with psychological and spiritual topics, and have articles
on topics ranging from metaphor and shadow to acupuncture and meditation,
sometimes two or three articles on the same topic but from different
perspectives.  Some writers would contribute personal viewpoints, some
would summarize the exchanges on a given topic between a dozen interested
participants...

More specifically still, I personally would like to see what I term a
"dream encyclopedia" -- an encyclopedia in which all or almost all the
usual encyclopedia topics are covered, but from the perspective of their
occurrence in dreams, fantasies, fictions -- their imaginative forms.

In dreams, for instance, two geographical locations touch if there is an
affinity between them -- so geography and topology are entirely different.
The London Underground connects with the Paris Metro with the New York
subway.  Rimbaudelaire is a French symbolist poet -- I'd like to see his
biography.   Circles can be squared as well as squares circled, and
technology admits of perpetual motion machines.

I'm not thinking here of a factual encyclopedia of myth -- we have those
already -- but a mythic encyclopedia of fact...

*

Once again, I come back to the idea that for a *format* we couldn't do
better than look at Christopher Alexander's *Pattern Language*...

Any comments?

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri May 03 23:33:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: e-mail comm expressivity
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:33:00 GMT

Mila,

I thought of this post that you wrote some time ago:

On Fri, 19 Apr 1996 you  wrote:

> Wilbur, Barbara,
> thanks to both of you for contributing to a body of knowledge badly needed for
> developing a theory of e-mail comm behavior.

You noted their different perspectives on the subject.

> Facial feedback is for most people essential to immediacy in comm (and, often,
> even life!)

(Of course he was perhaps thinking of the face program he writing!).

> 2. Barbara joined the thread sharing experiences of being freed from FtF baggage
> *impeding* direct comm when she resorted to e-mailing.
> Thank you both for showing *both* sides of the coin...

You made this suggestion:
> If there'll be more msgs to this thread, I offer to post regular resumes on a
> 2-days basis or so.

There have of course been many more posts comparing and contrasting
f2f and email communication, the value of each, the possibility of
intimacy and love via email.  Authentic dialogue.

There has been so much that it would be hard to make a resume.  I have
been working on a short essay on the topic for about a year -- in its
very rough form it is on the Psybernet web page.  Intimacy in
Cyberspace,  I think I call it.  I have not found the energy to work
on it.  But is there some way to capture the discussion, with its
warmth, and occasional heat.  Would it be worthwhile?  Would it be
respectful of the process?

One of the things I notice is that there is a rhythm to the topics
that come up here.  We have had wonderful threads on identity,
metaphor, reality, anonymity in the past.  Though we have added  a lot
of new slants on it all.  I see the threads popping up on other psych
oriented lists.  I think that is fine in some ways, this Psybernet
Mailing List is fresh and new, and nothing is really being repeated.
For all that if there were short, delightful, respectful essay on
classical topics that would enable us to go further.

I look forward to the work planned in the dream event, which has the
production of a final document built into the process, I think this is
a great innovation,  that has grown out of Charles' summaries of
games.  That will occupy my mind for the next couple of months.

I am addressing this to you Mila as you began to take an interest in
something like this.  I wonder what you are thinking about this now?
What do others think?  Perhaps this is a way of harnessing some hidden
skilltalent!  Lets mull it over.

Speaking of on-line writing tasks, does anyone know how the Netdynam
writing venture is working out?


Walter

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Fri May 03 23:46:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Love and Healing through Hypnosis article
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 12:46:36 +0100

This is an article I wrote for the www.hypnosis.com hypnosis forums
set up by Tad James;

Since it's relevant to the Psybernet Love discussions I thought
I'd drop it in here.

I havent had time to assimilate all the Psybernet messages, but they
continue to be very interesting, insightful and useful-

Thanks folks, for a valuable, friendly and uplifting contribution to
my life - please keep it up!

Jurek - Dale Kirby's NLP page at http://www.rain.org/~da5e/nlpfaq.html

is the best place for NLP IMO; the list owner is Jeff Oliver,
j.oliver@cowan.edu.au - you should mail Jeff if you'd like to join the
list.

Cheers

Steve


---

Love under Hypnosis
-------------------

This is a long article - since it's intended
to be a self-contained summary of my opinions
on Love, Hypnosis and healing it has to be.

All my articles are GNU freeware, you may
(mostly) wrap your fish and chips in them as
you please.

My other articles on hypnosis, love and healing
are on the net at

www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html


Contents:

1. Too much of a good thing?
2. Optimum Health
3. Love over manipulation
4. Ethics
5. Omelettes and Egg-breaking

I thoroughly welcome Tad's generosity in providing
this forum and I do not intend posting any
'negative' information;

Flamers, spooks & bogus personalities will
be ignored.

1. Too much of a good thing?
----------------------------
I read Tad James's 'Timeline Therapy' book a few
months back, and at the time was staggered by the
scope of the revelations. To be honest, I wasnt
ready for them: Tad's book gives a complete and
practically applicable toolbox for healing and
nurturing the human personality, removing hurts,
fears and problems and allowing us to be the people
we really want to be.

At the time I read it, I had been experimenting
with a computer aided hypnosis program for the PC
and had gotten myself into what I term my
'optimum health state': where by raising the
immune system, boosting confidence and convincing
my subconscious mind that it is deeply in love,
I felt an incredible gain in my physical and
mental health and abilities.

For some time, I have been describing this
'optimum health state' to people and recommending
that they use suggestions of being 'deeply,truly
in love' to boost their immune systems and give
themselves a huge lift via their subconscious mind;

I have gradually found however that powerful
though these suggestions are, it is not enough
to create a *well-balanced* extremely positive
personality.

Although I have felt euphoric, elated and have
achieved more in the last year than in the
rest of my life, I have gradually come to realise
that it is entirely necessary to perform the
changework Tad describes in 'Timeline Therapy'
to keep one's personality well-adjusted and
to keep oneself 'grounded' in the real world;

Positive energy, emotions and thoughts are
wonderful, enchanting things but it is possible
-even in the extremely negative society we live in-
to become imbalanced in the positive direction,
even as it is in the negative direction.

We might label the latter imbalance 'evil', but
I do not think we have a good label for people
who although good, loving and positive people,
lose touch with the realities of life and fail
to achieve much of what they could - with
proper grounding - realise of their potential.

Lyall Watson describes in his new book 'Dark
Nature' how nature seems to have a built in
tendancy and wish for balance - he talks of
'The Goldilocks Effect', pointing out that
whenever systems are out of balance in Nature
things go wrong.

I have noticed this in myself recently - whereas
I have felt elated, on cloud nine and awed by
the power and beauty of the emotions instilled
through my hypnosis sessions, I have not gotten
a great deal done;

The ability to 'get up and get on with it' remains
squarely in the province of negative energy, and
it has taken that realisation to convince me that
too much of a good thing really can turn sour.

I believe that in Tad's 'Timeline Therapy'
paradigms lies the key to balancing the power
of spiritual love and the enormous benefits it
can bestow with a solid grounding in the real
world and the ability to achieve our goals and
our real potential.

2. Optimum Health

I'll include my description of my optimum health
state here to explain what I'm talking about:

[cut out since this was from my earlier
'Jeffries ideas for nice people article':
www.gla.ac.uk/grkinfo2/combpsy.html ]


3. Love over manipulation
--------------------------

In convincing my subconscious mind that it's
deeply in love I have not focussed that love on
a 'real' person, rather an imaginary woman who
satisfies all my [thoroughly unreasonable I should
think!] expectations and wildest dreams, and
thinks the same of me.

This means I am able to have relationships with
women without my trying to manipulate them into
going out with me, as I used to do;

I have found that not consciously OR subconsciously
desiring my female friends has brought us far
closer, rather than detracting from our friendships;

The manipulations men and women use in relationships
go a long way to causing most of our personal
and society's problems in my opinion, and I had
long thought there was no way out of the double-binds
which the sexual instinct IMO poses:

- 'nice guys dont get fed'
- 'battered women always go back for more'
- '90% of women will test you by the second date
   to see if you'll take their 'crap'. If you
   do, relationship over.
- 'arrogance, money and status make a man
   attractive. Looks & shape make a woman
   attractive. Therefore men and women manipulate
   and obsess themselves with these things.

I have now found that there IS a solution to
this double-bind; if we already are in love
with someone who is qualified rather than just
available - deep true spiritual love - then we
will have no need to manipulate to get a
vaccinating replacement version with strings
and straight jackets.

I'm not saying we shouldnt have 'normal' relationships,
just that we dont NEED to and that not needing
frees us from having to manipulate when we do
get involved with someone; we can be honest,
open, genuinely kind, sincere and gentle with them
since we are not afraid of losing them.

Is a man free when he is terrified and jealous
of losing his gorgeous wife? Is a woman free
when her ultra-successful husband works so hard
at staying ultra-successful that he forgets
the children's names? Being driven by fear
of losing love rather than being called by it's
enchantment to our actions and habits spoils
many a life and deprives so very many of the
joy of true spiritual love.

IT DOESNT HAVE TO BE LIKE THIS! True love brings
no fear of losing it, of being usurped or
discarded; it's security is there, built in
for eternity. We are ALL of us worthy of this
love, and it is waiting for all or any of us
who wish it.

Why not say to yourself:

I am worthy of this love. I am capable of
understanding that it is boundless, and free,
and so very, very positive.

Even better, say it in a deep trance and tell
yourself you're already feeling it. Before you
know it you will be!

And better still, read Tad's book and find out
how to propagate this love and allow it to flow
through your life, how to heal past hurts and
how to harness it's sheer overwhelming power to
create your future with.

My favourite tune is the theme from the film
'The Princess Bride', written by Mark Knopfler.
The last line goes:

My love is like a storybook story
But it's as real as the feelings I feel.

It's true! Love IS as real as the feelings we feel,
since we cant think of an emotion without feeling
it. Tell your subconscious mind it's in love
with your ideal partner in a deep trance, and
you WILL be.

[There is a wonderful book which explains the
above far better than I can, entitled
'The Celestine Prophecy', by James Redfield.]

Healing with love
-----------------

The Celestine Prophecy explains how by first
'connecting' ourselves to spiritual love, we can
then project it to other people and heal them.

This is because love [and indeed ourselves] are
at some level pure energy, and we can transfer
it between each other, plants etc.

[This is no longer a half-baked claim to make,
and is in fact backed up by scientific evidence;
Kirlian photography of healing sessions and plants
has clearly shown these energy fields and the
transfer of energy between people;

It is not necessary to attach a supernatural
origin to the energy being exchanged to understand
the healing process;

Gradually more and more of the ideas and pieces
of healing knowledge which were hitherto
considered 'occult' are being proved scientifically
and brought into the mainstream.

As Arthur C Clarke said

'Any Sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magick'.]

My own approach when healing is to visualise
my imaginary girlfriend and feel the aching,
flowing love I have for her pass through me;
Then reminding myself that at the subconscious,
collective level we are all each other, I will
affirm that [for the purposes of the healing]
the person I want to project love at IS my
girlfriend. Once my subconscious accepts the
suggestion [this took a while at first, but it
gets past the critical faculty of my mind right
away now] the flow of love / energy from me
to them is enormous; This doesnt disadvantage
me though, since the energy effectively flows
through me rather than out of me without being
replenished.

The evidence that healing works is rapidly coming
out of the seams;

- The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing, Ernest
Lawrence Rossi, Norton 1993

- Where Science and Magic Meet, Serena Roney-Dougall

- You can heal your life, Louise L Hay

- Answer Cancer, the healing of a nation, Steve Parkhill

- And the truth shall set you free, David Icke

As 'Where Science and Magic Meet' describes,
information comes into us through the pineal
gland [known in mysticism as the 'third eye'],
and is passed to the limbic-hypothalmic system
of the brain; Ernest Rossi has proved rigorously
that this brain system controls our mind-body
connection by directing glands to release hormones
and 'messenger molecules' of the body, and that
if we are stressed our body PURPOSELY lowers
our immune system and disease may occur. If we
feel good, our body augments our defences and
even cancerous tumours may dissolve and disappear;
this so-called 'spontaneous remission' is not
a miracle-cure, it is the perfectly natural
result of the Mind-Body connection Rossi has
proved. Serena Roney Dougall has put in the
missing link between psychic healing and Rossi's
findings, and it is now no exaggeration to say
that 'Psychic Healing' has not merely been
proved to work, but that it is actually a
perfectly natural and even 'scientific' process!

So, to those who may discard my claims as outrageous
or lacking evidence, I ask you to read Rossi's
and Roney-Dougall's remarkable books first - or
it will be *you* who havent looked at the scientific
evidence.


4. Ethics

I sometimes get asked if my ideas are 'ethical';
I have great respect for the ethical standards
hypnotherapists adhere to;

I DO feel that the ethics of my situation deserve careful treatment
because the criticisms simply do not apply to my own approach. I only
 use hypnosis on myself,and I suggest that anyone who wishes to use my own
approach learn ordinary self-hypnosis first or receive a kick-start from
a good therapist.

I expect it will turn out that the real motivation behind some of the
criticism of hypnosis, NLP, and my own ideas is not ethical
considerations at all but rather a wish to discourage technical
creativity and mental advancement which might
threaten [and by God it should] the established
medical, scientific and academic orders.

I also think that the establishment would rather
people didnt find out about their own manipulations
and that they have deliberately tried to vaccinate
 the entire population of the world
against real deep true spiritual love by maintaining
 the pretence that manipulation, deviousness and
lying are not the real  rulers of our lives
and relationships.

In the hypnotherapy course I did  ethical and professional behaviour had
featured highly. but nothing was said about the emotion of love under
trance and references to affecting it hypnotically were made only by
inferring that this and a range of other ideas were things which no
scrupulous therapist would do with a client. I have a great deal of
respect for my teacher and found the course superb, but long having had
a hearty contempt for the real motives and truths behind such
taboos, I set about thinking about whether using self-hypnosis to alter
the effect of romantic involvement on my subconscious mind and
'immune system' would be 'ethically sound', feasible and immediately
practically applicable. I came to the following conclusions:-

- It is perfectly ethical to use self-hypnosis to address one's OWN
romantic feelings; all the taboos and no-no's surrounding love and such
emotions in therapy are from a purely professional standpoint. One can
hardly end up in a compromising situation with oneself!

- With the 'helper' self-hypnosis program I had an immediately
practically applicable means to hypnotise myself and implant suggestions
to effect whatever changes I wanted, were I to decide they were feasible.
- Being somnambulistic, I was able to get into a deep trance with the
program very easily and the relaxing power of it quickly had me hooked.

- The feasibility was the difficult bit. Could I  through hypnosis
overturn the power of the romantic instinct and raise my immune system
despite my woeful state? Could I overpower the hugely negative and
depressing feelings which were weighing my down? I came to the conclusion
that I could not.


I think true love IS a real phenomenon,
but that it doesnt happen very often and certainly wasnt going to happen
to me had I maintained my previous thought patterns.

Anyway, after thinking about this and realising that it WAS possible for
me to feel real deep true love, I thought to myself 'Right - if I'm going
to have a go at this I'm going to have to go for the jugular first time.
These badfeelings are deep, strong and they're not going to entertain a
meagre attempt to dislodge them. I'm going to have to go for the most
powerful suggestions I can think of'.

Being deeply, truly, wonderfully in love with
my ideal girlfriend, reciprocated and secure,
unconditional and limitless, constant and
so very, very positive - that is what it took
to heal me;

The power of my awakening imbalanced me rather
in the positive direction as I have said, but
thanks to people like Tad James, Steve Parkhill
and Louise Hay I am managing to strike a balance
now between elation & love and grounding and
'getting up and getting on with it'.

So am I claiming to have found the secret of love?
 Good grief, no. But I am saying that you can
feel it under deep trance and with post-hypnotic
suggestions, constantly and with overwhelmingly
positive effects on your abilities, personality
and physical and mental health.

5. Omelettes & Egg-breaking

I've always hated the saying 'You cant make an
omelette without breaking a few eggs' - I just
dont think it's true.

I've described what happened to me here, and I
believe that the same approach will work for
anyone; when I first used hypnosis though I
was not in a relationship, and hence had freedom
to do as I willed with my romantic feelings.

I realise that many people do not have this
freedom, and would not want to tinker with their
feelings of love; I respect that view, but I
often find it sad to see beautiful spirits in
torment over relationship problems and hurts
which they would not become ill over if they
knew the power of true spiritual love.

I believe that people already in a relationship
can feel this love just as easily as those who
are not - and without prejudicing their feelings
for their partner.

Instead of focussing the emotions on an imaginary
partner, focus them on yourself.

Louise Hay's 'You can heal your life' explains
how so many of our problems stem from not
loving ourselves; and how quickly they disappear
when we learn to.

I cannot recommend her book highly enough;
Steve Parkhill relates in 'Answer Cancer' how
in seven years of his healing work with hypnosis,
he has never once seen a case which contradicts
Louise's diagnosis of what causes disease:

Top of the list is a lack of love for ourselves.


For me, I went from almost complete ignorance of
any kind of love to feeling the powerful,
spiritual kind described in 'The Celestine Prophecy';

In fact though I reckon having experienced any
 kind of love it's probably easier to morph that
into spiritual love than starting from my own
position of sheer ignorance; my idea of 'common
ground' says that people dont need to
throw away their previous experience and make
 huge leaps of faith to set themselves free from
 lies and manipulation; all they really need to
do IMO is examine which things one learns are
 incontrovertibly true in one's own experience,
 and accept those rather than playing games of
censorship, disqualification and paradigm
 maintaining.

It really isnt IMO that hard to find evidence that
it is a lack of self-love which is the real cause
of so many problems facing our society, and what
Steve Parkhill calls 'social cancer'.
Steve's well made points are not just convincing,
 but axiomatically true, so true it's a joke and
 so patently obvious to anyone who honestly
 examines the facts [over a period of time and
 keeping notes of real-world situations]
rather than relying on other people's opinions.

Am I proposing Steve, or Tad, or Louise Hay as the Messiah then?
No, despite their enormous contributions to my
awakening I'm not. But I think that collectively
they are, as we all are, the force which will change
this world for the better. The power is within US;
it's just waiting to be plugged in.

I'll wrap this article up with a list of references:

Answer Cancer, The Healing of a Nation - Steve Parkhill

Timeline Therapy & the Basis of Personality, Tad James & Wyatt Woodsmall
* Tad's book is available from this server

You can heal your life, Louise L Hay
The Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing, Ernest Lawrence Rossi, Norton 1993
Where Science and Magic Meet, Serena Roney-Dougall
Autohypnosis, Ronald Shone
'Hypnomap' program & 'Combinatorial Psychology' GNU book, Steve Murray

And the truth shall set you free, David Icke

* David Icke's book is currently only available from:

Bridge of Love,
PO Box 33
Ryde
Isle of Wight
PO 33 2NJ

(UK)

or

Sarah Benjamin Rhodes, 505-466-0887

(US)


Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html

51 Turret Rd
Knightswood
Glasgow
G13 2HQ
Scotland, UK

+44 0141 959 4501

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From judithb@sbc1.com Fri May 03 23:50:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Blind on the Withinside...
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:50:20 GMT

Walter in response to many evocotive *images*;-)
<
For many men affect has this quality of getting in the way.  The very
thing that is to the fore in their partner, and to them has the higher
value.  I am using this analogy to make sense of what you might be
speaking of.  I thought my images, whole movies, were quite non
linear, perhaps not?


Walter>
Absolutely and your images are quite non linear within the form. When
watching 3 Marriages and a Funeral a number of months back, I kept looking to
see who I was in the movie sort of the actress probing the message behind the
message. What happened toward the end was that I could sense the multiple
themes being played out within each person with each person, very
multidimentional, and very much beyond my acting training about protagonist
etc. I sensed that this was the more complex version of whatever myth is
presented. I'm not getting to what I sensed but it might be what you sense in
your images, sort of like everyone is assign 4 themes and 6 minor themes and
they go at it and weave and confront and shift, sort of like a giant mind.

And your <For many men affect has this quality of getting in the way.  The
very
thing that is to the fore in their partner, and to them has the higher
value. >
This is a subject warm to my heart. I raised a left handed son. In wanting to
know what this meant and what handed meant, I ran across a piece in the
literature that said that right handed males had been found to be able to
either think or feel in the same moment and that in communicating with a
right handed male you never mixed the affective and the analytical, but
started with one and led to the other. I saw a dramatic example of this on
C-Span when a lawyer, a former abused spouse, was testifying before Biden to
get money for women's shelters. She sat there in all her lawyer competence,
with a wonderful suit on, and of course they all hat her credentials before
hand and her first words were "I was an abused spouse." Then she launched
into a very clear analytical presentation of what she does in traiing law
enforcement people. Anyway without going on and on, she began with the
affective to break thru the usual sentorial distance and had Biden eating out
of her hand. Before she was finished Biden had turned to his aid and directed
him to schedule a meeting with her.

The literature went on to say that left handed me could mix the affective and
analytical which I observed in my son all the time. Interesting that here in
the US our last two presendents wereare left handed.

Judith
--
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judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sat May 04 00:00:30 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 08:00:30 EDT

Walter, You  write:
>You see, I don't think my metaphor quite captures it -- I would love
>to hear someone name the movie that has the essence of Psyber-L.  That
>would do what you mention, encapsulate and transform.

 I would like to propose : "Blade Runner" with Harrison Ford.

Jurek

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From judithb@sbc1.com Sat May 04 00:01:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: nature of communication/intimacy
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 12:01:32 GMT

Speaks to me Robert this thot of yours among many I might add,
<  Authentic dialogue can only help us understand, it can't necessarily
help us agree.  At least with authentic dialogue we might make fewer errors
in recognizing situations of differences.  It was good talking with you.

Robert de Cyberie>

The work I do often is only about providing a spaceprocess for each to probe
their own beingness in relationship to communication. I have experienced
exactly what I think I am hearing you say:-) the clearingillumination when a
person gets an aha, an understanding of self and self other, and how the
differences then become available to bring to the moment for deeper
dialogue.Our Western argumentative-meaning building one's argument- process
epitomized in our academia here in the US and in a more characature vein in
our legal system, assumes sameness of communication form while the world was
diversifying, tends to toss many arguments into the proverbial hand basket.

regards,
Judith

Judith
--
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                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
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From judithb@sbc1.com Sat May 04 00:22:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Blind on the Withinside...
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 12:22:49 GMT

Walter you ask
<Judith, Charles,


> My dream is . . .


How do the blind within dream?


Walter>

For me I have a sense that the dream is occuring in my feltsense, that it is
the same dream you dream but I am reading vibration somehow-I'm taking a wack
at this here off the top of my early morning head BTW:-) that there are in
effect images and in fact I *know* the image, I mean I can dream about cats
and know the color and coat, I could even draw the cat if I could retain the
knowing of it long enuf. So when my teacher said I was on the other side of
the image I immediately understood what he meant. I am very immersed in
vibration and resonance at the moment and recall an ongoing argument with my
mentor in my PhD program who would toss out "in the beginning was the word"
which he meant as language and I would toss back that words are vibration and
that the word *word* was *sound* in some other culture's creation myth.

I'm very comfortable with this tho often frustrated in remembering because
Isense losing nuance often, but I am always left with the gist in any event.
However, I wonder if later when you for instance Walter, relate your dream
with your eyes open do you see the image inside your head as you relate it or
is it a sort of stream of organized information. I once had a friend who saw
images 4 inches outside her eyes when she spoke. She described it as watching
a cartoon playing out in space in front of her as people talked.

The downside of my dreaming process is always having to hold the participant
observer position so I can remember. I had a new dream moment the other night
where I was engaged in a very mad mad NYC trip to the rainbow room (:-) and
someone had written me a letter in pasta and I couldn't read it (no bifocals
handy in the dream state<g) in the dream I had a very real sense of
intuitively knowing something. It turned out to be a real communication frm
someone which I tested, mostly to check out the dream.So I had a first
experience of what happens for me in my real ;-) life.

I sense that the richness of the visual which I don't experience, sort of
food for my eyes, would add dramatically to the quality of the dream
experience, yet I still get the messages.

make any sense in decoding?
Judith


--
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                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
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From judithb@sbc1.com Sat May 04 00:28:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: love of language
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 12:28:50 GMT

Charles-
I LOVE your new words. Thanks. I hadn't gotten that far but have been
juxtaposing words which I sense at the same time-for me, it is about
expanding the language beyond the linear to capture a sort of musical idea.
Robert's poetry for instance for me gives this multidimensional, non linear
sense. Maybe this is why poetry is speaking to us all here, cyberpainting, I
have often felt the frustration of the linearity of words on a screen in
sequence when in my beingness I am holding multiple senses. And want to play
with the multiplicity of it all at the same time. Now off to learn how to
spell your new words :-)
Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sat May 04 00:52:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Links
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 06:52:01 -0600

Walter,

>Great sharing from you two.  Whatever happens, it -feels right-  that
>you are speaking so openly here.  Thanks for the trust, I hope we can
>honour it.  I will do my best with that for sure.

        For your embracing of that which we are trying to understand, je te
remercie mon vieux.  I have no doubt about the integrity of this gathering
here in cyberspace.  The only concern I have which I have voiced to Marie is
the issue of silence.  There is a practice here in our area by a branch of
the Mennonite Church called shunning which is used to *punish* those who
transgress the boundaries of the acceptable for the group.  With you, and
the many others who have listened to me in the past, this fear of silence
fades into a haunting whisper, a very thin-edged apprehension.

>The power of the Internet helps us make links like never before.
>Links are native to the medium.

        Links that break the isolation.

>I guess we all feel the force of people's words on the screen here in
>some way.  I think of Robert and Marie, and how this linking might
>impact.

        It is with these thoughts that both Marie and I joined together to
share with all of you.  What power do these words have.  Why do these words
work with some and not others if they are just *words*?

 Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sat May 04 01:31:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I am back, I hope
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 07:31:12 -0600

Alyss,

        It's good to hear from you again.

>i accidentally got deleted off the list, and various responses i made to your
>replies in my first messages didn't get through, i think due to a problem
>with my server. Anyway this is a test of whether it's working again.  I
>wasn't just ignoring your messages.

        It's good to know the roots of *silence*.  The problems that
technology bring are indeed frustrating, especially just when things get
interesting.  If you let me know the dates of your missing, I could forward
the missing posts to you as I have them all indexed.

Robert de Cyberie

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sat May 04 04:12:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: dragons and sunrunners
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 12:12:29 -0400

Susan,

I'm glad Rilke's words brought you a measure of comfort, a light in the
darkness.  Your words have given me much to think about, and much to feel.
 One of the reasons that piece came to my mind was its metaphorical use of
dragons and princesses, which are linked for me to something that conveys
what I *see* and sense when I engage most fully with this Psyberian
wonderland.  You inspire me to explore it here.

Walter wrote:

<<I see no difference between metaphor and the images I make within.  Maybe I
am a visualizer.  I look at this screen, but I might as well be blind,
because I see only images of this gathering, the person who I write to, or
some image that captures the theme of the discussion.>>

I am a visualizer, but not only that.  I read very fast, and sometimes I
merely skim the words on the screen, see only letters and marks that organize
themselves into meaning in my thoughts, and linger there -- or leave.  Ah,
but sometimes I become immersed in something more, a sense of color -- an
essence of being that transcends mere words -- a communion that seizes me for
a moment and lifts me out of time and space to reach a deeper knowing.  What
does this have to do with dragons and princesses?

Some years ago, I read a series of books -- a fantasy epic by Melanie Rawn
called <<The Dragon Prince>> and another called <<The Dragon Star>>.  In the
world that she created, dragons mind-mated to humans, one to one for life,
sharing thought and emotion in a powerful communal bond.  Within this bond,
dragon and mate would rise into the sky together and go *between*, move out
of time and space to go to another when, another where.  People communicated
across time and space in this world, too, by weaving their thought patterns,
their emotions, their colors across the shimmering light of sun, moon, and
stars.

The first connection to PSYBER-L, for me, was the idea of mindsharing with
dragons -- the second, the idea of going *between*, beyond time and space --
the third, the weaving of essence on beams of light.

While a part of me is sitting here, in my living room, typing words on a
keyboard, trying to make sense, to communicate thoughts and meaning --
another wild, unfettered part of me rises with dragons, flickers *between*,
and weaves my colors on the sunlight.

Walter, this is the metaphor that transforms this experience for me -- I see
us as a community (far-flung in time and place) of sunrunners ...

Marie

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sat May 04 04:37:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Barbara:Soul Stuff
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 17:37:10 +0100

Dear Barbara...


IMO, the more you need to use imagination in communication, the less you
>>"fall in love" with the other person than with yourself.  It is what you
>>imagine your lover is saying, rather than what she is saying, that you
>>are in love with.  I don't understand how you can *know* someone without
>>ever having seen her smile, or touched her skin.  You have "touched" her
>>mind, or rather, your imagination or interpretation of her mind, but not
>>her soul.
>>Barbara



Find enclosed the power of words, of beauty, of thought, of communication
and of reaching so far into the soul that a part of me is now one with these
words and their authors. These people I have never met..but they let me
touch their souls briefly with their words. Their words are eternal in me.
In the same way my soul can soar and rise to places where only beauty exists
in the world, when I know what it is to truly be alive  - when I hear a
piece of music or look at colours painted in the dawn as it breaks at 4am on
a summer morning, or when I hold my daughters tiny hand in mine and feel the
comfort that she seeks there or to feel the love here that I am given
through the intensity of communication here.  He is the mirror of my soul
and in that mirror I see eternity.  I dont need to *see* him to feel that.
To know his touch to know that it exists.
And No, his fingers have never touched my skin, nor has he seen my smile,
but he knows that he has touched somewhere far more precious, far deeper,
far more elusive in places within me none have ever been before. What
compared to that then is a touch..what then is a smile?

Men  have lied to me with a touches with smiles and I have lied to men with
the same..if a touch or a smile were all it took to truly know somebody then
we wouldnt have had to have invented divorce.

Ultimatly, who are you to presume to know what touches my soul, what has
touched my soul or the manner in which that touch was made?

Dolores
Laurel..

Soul Touching Stuff:

Had I the heaven' embroidered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver-light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet :
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet :
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

W.B. Yeats.


Tiger! Tiger burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies
Burned the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire>
What the hand dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder, and what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? And what dread feet?

What the hammer? What the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? What dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?

WHen the stars threw down their spears,
And watered heaven with their tears,
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the Lamb make thee?

Tiger! TIger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry.

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Sat May 04 07:13:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: love of language
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 14:13:26 -0500

Ahhh, Charles, you have brought to me a breakthrough--one of the ponds in which
I am immersed professionally (and probably more deeply personally) is
dialectics. For Aristotle, dialectic was the counterpart of rhetoric, the
process of two opposing voices finding truth (the notion of two mouths fnding a
harmonic pattern that is true seems to fit here ); the dialectic of Socrates
(as presented via Plato) don't quite work here as Socrates seemed capable of
taking them to a level of nastiness that I don't find encouraging to
exploration of much of anything. In modern theory, much work by Lesli Baxter
looks at the dialectics in relaionships (autonomy vs conectedness, openness vs
privacy, novelty vs stability) and much discussion related to "fuzzy logic" is
being published. My agenda has been finding paths to avoid the either/or of
Cartesian thought and move to the more Zen both/and--I've a graphic model which
has tried to do this with the major paradigms of academia which has taken 3
years to get even into rough stages and which can't go the next step until I
can figure out the graphics of adding an additional dimension to go to a higher
order construct. Your 'salunary terms" take this step verbally--it offers a way
of bridging the discreteness of language, the boundaries which are set up each
time we utter a word--and give us a way of osscilating (or however that's
spelled) away from  the ends of the dialectic and into the more confusing, but
more whole betweeness of multiple constructs coexisting at the same time. It is
a way of simultaneous opposition, but in a harmonic way--it seems to capture
what Mozart did in the Marriage of Figaro, one voice, plus another, plus
another, plus another, .....--creating not horror, but the music of tones
playing in and around one another, dancing in counterpoint.
        Such blendings and separatings and blendings seem to be coming into my
life in many ways these days--much of this is sparked from the discussion we
find here, but it emerges in other places too. I began taking instruction in
Tai Chi in January. Since then, I have been slowly (very slowly) learning to
walk all over again, how to balance, how to move from emptiness to fullness in
my body (quite an undertaking for an adult who avoids riding a bike because she
always ends up with skinned knees, etc. from falling off or crashing). Last
night, I was offered the chance to begin to put the separate elements of 4
months worth of work into the first set of movements. The instructor's
description of the "prologue," as it were, was a description of life itself--we
begin with *emptiness*, standing still motionless, centered, relaxing, opening
ourselves to the universe [there are Chinese terms for each position, but I
don't know them yet]--the second movement is a positioning into wholeness, but
as yet with no specific content {how to explain--he tries several different
methods, Charles' "picture before the picture" image pops to mind, so I ask,
with a shifting for context, "is this the thought before the thought"? Puzzled,
he looks at me--"yes...exactly...the thought before the thought"--now I
understand the wholeness of a whole before the whole forms]. The third movement
divides into two parts by stepping out (the identification of the yin and the
yang, together, but discrete); the fourth a movement into quadrants with the
raising of the arms; the fifth into eight parts with the bending of knees and
elbows-----the liquidness of flow from one stance to another, seamless,seemless
, the
substance of cell division, of growth and division at a cellular level
[Stephen's discussion of the connection at the cellular level comes to
mind]. The flow from emptiness into existence, from nothingness into light,
from one-dimension into multiple dimensions--bridging the yin and yang, feeling
a locatedness in space, a centeredness --[interestng that with all these
images, I too have no pictures--how comforting to hear others talk
of not seeing images--I have impressions, feelings, sometimes blended with
words to make "word-pictures" -- incipient images--attitudes, perhaps? ]
        It strikes me that this sense of physical oneness, which is aimed also
at a spiritual oneness, is what Judith captures in her term personalUniverse
and which Charles evokes in solunary terms--and what ultimately we seek in
relationships, the both/and, the coexistence, the consubstantiality--we reach
out of the either/or, the un-wholeness (un-holiness ?), the solitariness of
sole existence into the connectedness of soul existence (ah, Marie--we are an
entanglement of souls--thank goodness). Is that what we seek here--and to
figure out in looking at the psyche of netRelationships how this can be
accomplished across distance, across space, across time?
                        yours in the journey,
                                Susan

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From judithb@sbc1.com Sat May 04 08:29:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 20:29:09 GMT

<Walter, You  write:
>You see, I don't think my metaphor quite captures it -- I would love
>to hear someone name the movie that has the essence of Psyber-L.  That
>would do what you mention, encapsulate and transform.

 I would like to propose : "Blade Runner" with Harrison Ford.

Jurek>
yes, jurek, there is a true sense of Blade Runner here for me. The metaphor
immediately brought a surreal sense.
judith

--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Sat May 04 08:30:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Links
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 20:30:37 GMT

Robert you ask
< Why do these words
work with some and not others if they are just *words*?

 Robert de Cyberie>

here here
judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sat May 04 08:38:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: social reality and narrative
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 16:38:19 -0400

Hello, all!

Some thoughts on the nature of social reality and narrative that seem to be
relevant to recent themes:

People, like scientists,  attempt to predict and control events -- generate
theories about the way the world works, and interpret experience according to
their individual concepts about reality.  We live in a social world and are
constantly forming theories about the things that happen to us there.
 Furthermore, how we interpret social events is often determined by what we
are currently thinking about, what beliefs and categories we use to make
sense of life.  However, unlike scientists, who form hypotheses in order to
discover the nature of an assumed, objective external reality, I believe that
people's beliefs and expectations *create* social reality.  To some extent,
we are all creatues of the culture in which we were raised -- shaped by our
internalizations of society's standards and expectations.

A narrative metaphor would go so far as to say that our lives are governed by
the stories that have been imposed on us by our family or our culture.
 Jerome Bruner points out that:

<<Insofar as we account for our own actions and for the human events that
occur around us principally in terms of narrative, story, drama, it is
conceivable that our sensitivity to narrative provides the major link between
our own sense of self and our sense of others in the social world around us.
 The common coin may be the forms of narrative that the culture offers us.>>

I don't believe that we are passive recipients of the explanatory and
prescriptive myths of our culture.  I hold a constructivist perspectivist --
a creative image of human beings actively shaping their own reality, making
their experiences coherent and meaningful, and turning personal narratives
into interpersonal, interactive dialogues.  This view of reality as fluid and
malleable is not limited to the present and the future; we reconstruct the
past as well, by using new understandings to make sense of what happened in
it.

This point of view does not easily resonate with experience.  Most of us are
not aware of the role we play in inventing the world we live in -- do not
look for alternate ways in which to explain the meaning of our experiences --
do not question the illusion of a separate, independent external reality.
 This tendency to believe that the way we interpret what we see is the way
things really are has great significance with respect to the way we relate to
other people.

Are we helpless victims of the self-image we were socialized to create?
 Blind actors in society's stories?  Do we even hear our own voice helping to
tell those stories?  I believe that people are accountable for their actions,
that self-awareness is the key to transformation from passive victim to
creative participant, and that empathy and authentic discourse can be the
building blocks for a new, synergistic paradigm of human interaction.

I see it here, on PSYBER-L  -- as we share our stories, we are creating the
very reality in which we meet.

Rationally yours,

Marie

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From eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU Sat May 04 08:42:47 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie
From: eversole barbara a <eversole@STRIPE.COLORADO.EDU>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 14:42:47 -0600

Judith,
i get the surreal part, but isn't Blade Runner kind of dark and
depressing?  A very stark view of the future and humankind...I would
rather our metaphor be more hopeful.
Barbara

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From AThomas561@AOL.COM Sat May 04 09:08:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: love of language
From: Alyss Thomas <AThomas561@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 17:08:19 -0400

Your words on soulful interconnectedness, Susan, make me think of Rilke's
poem, You Who Never Arrived:

....You, Beloved, who are all
the gardens I have ever gazed at,
longing. An open window
in a country house -, you almost
stepped out, pensive, to meet me. Streets that I chanced upon,-
you had just walked down them and vanished.
And sometimes, in a shop, the mirrors
were still dizzy with your presence and, startled, gave back
my too-sudden image. Who knows? perhaps the same
bird echoed through both of us
yesterday, separate, in the evening.

It's the sense of almost-connectedness,our-almost-potential-almost-true that
we don't have to endure separation of minds/souls.  Our selves are built upon
a sense of loss and separateness.  Having become individuals can we now,
those of us here in Psyberia and beyond, meet our transpersonal nature again
in each other?  Or catch that person in the mirror, that person who has just
walked down the street ahead of us and left a faint perfume of hope.  Alyss.
:>)

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From AThomas561@AOL.COM Sat May 04 09:08:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Encyclopedia was Re: e-mail comm expressivity
From: Alyss Thomas <AThomas561@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 17:08:32 -0400

I love the idea of the InnerNetEncyc.  What about Lacan-Cluseau, the French
phenomenlogical detective who found ghosts in closets and gave them back to
their owners.  Alyss.

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From AThomas561@AOL.COM Sat May 04 09:08:40 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie
From: Alyss Thomas <AThomas561@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 17:08:40 -0400

Jurek, the movie definitely IS Bladerunner, the director's cut.  Lives on the
net are brief.  There are so many contacts, so many memories, so many things
lost like tears in the rain. Nothing in our past lives has prepared us for
this future world we are now living in with our fragile hearts suspended
between our fragile technologies.  Alyss.

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat May 04 09:18:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 17:18:46 -0400

At 02:00 AM 4/11/96 -0400, you wrote:
>You said:
>>First things first, I want to get a face animated and able to >understand
>English, along with speech recognition, and the >ability to look you in the
>eye, running on a PC.
>
>Wilber, or should I call you Faustus?  I would have words of warning having
>traveled a similar route, but if steadfast conviction is what you have, then
>I hope you realize your goal.

How have you followed a similar route?  I do have a steadfast conviction,
and it appears that things are coming together..  but I've been putting off
responding to email's, for which I apologize..

>I have often seen that fire in others
>extinguished in the process of time.  And, others who search in vain for that
>fire that was their youth.  I think I am turning into an old fool.
>

I still have the fire, tempered with the wisdom of age.. I'm 35 and I've
already started 2 companies .. I've done enough technology work over the
last 20 years to know that I can do what I'm setting out to do ..

>>>Or, did I read that your goal lies in another direction?  A >>fulfillment
>of an age-old quest.
>
>>It's not a new theme.  The "Wizard of Oz" comes to mind.
>
>I was thinking about that base urge to want to continue life whether through
>immortality or creation of new life.

That's in there somewhere.. but a talking face would be enough for now..

>The spark of life that transcends
>mortality.  (Sometimes words don't need to be restricted to a sentence.)
>

We live on in many ways, this is just one of the ways that I'll be living on..

>>I'm interested in what you see as the downside...
>
>I find that I'm good at beginnings but sometimes unfortunately only that.  I
>like to open doors.

I don't.. I also don't like to think of things as doors, I like to keep the
doors open, so that I can access all of the parts of me.

>>I'm not familar with the metaphore "golden spike" but I do >agree that there
>will be some level of collaboration.
>
>Yes, my apologies.  I was not too clear about this.  This is an allusion to
>the 'Iron Horse' of the late 1800's.  Railroads were being constructed
>simultaneously in the United States from the West Coast and the East
>Coast/Midwest.  I think one place where the rails converged was in Utah.  A
>golden spike was emplaced to symbolize the completion of an unifying goal.
>
>>I've had a people tell me that I should use a woman's face as >the first
>interface, but I want to use my own first.  (Artist >self-portrait metaphore
>here..)
>
>Have you ever seen the rendition of a generic face?  The face is a
>compilation of many faces.

Yes.. It's being used in commercials now..

>It looks something like everyone but like no one
>in particular.  If this face was used, then it'd force me to remember names
>better.  <g>

The repore part is a part of the reason that I'm doing this..

---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat May 04 10:48:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: love of language
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 18:48:26 -0400

Among Susan's choice words:

>The flow from emptiness into existence, from nothingness into light,
>from one-dimension into multiple dimensions--bridging the yin and yang,

>out of the either/or, the un-wholeness (un-holiness ?), the solitariness of
>sole existence into the connectedness of soul existence

>accomplished across distance, across space, across time?

I recognize the solunary -wonderful inspiration!- and yet I wish to add the
third inevitable movement to it and then encapsulate the 'triad' with the
cosmic fourth.

At the most fundamental solunary level there is:

*lifedeath*

to metaphysically, or better, experientially, add the third, one arrives at:

*lifedeathlife*

and the cosmic expression might be to reciprocate (oscillate; yes, breath,)
the fourth

*lifedeathlifedeath*

or, in my own experience to take the tertiary formulation and encompass it
with a circle, or put it in the sphere...

And live from there. Where even solunary words may become inadequate...
patternmusic.

***

thanks to all,


HooN


***

there is life
there is death
in between:
the merry chase

Love -
I would die
for you
in this second

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Sat May 04 11:37:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie or reality?
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 19:37:16 -0400

Well, I decided that the devil was sufficiently under control to post
again.. not that I'm quite as appreciative of the posts that I've seen as it
appears that others are.

I suggest that anyone that is attempting to come to grips with this reality
check out "Childhood's End" by Arthur C. Clarke.  The jist of the story is
that we as human beings have a natural tendency to come together in a common
swirl of communication, and when we have reached that point, (actually, when
our children reach that point and their minds merge completely, something
that we'll never experience), then they won't have need for the world and
will escape the reality that we know for the new world that they go to.  (it
occurs to me that that has happened as long as there have been children.)

On the other hand, there is a popular book called "Snow Crash" that
discusses communcation in a Virtual Reality.  (It's quite entertaining
also..)  On recurring theme is metaphorhically is the same as the "Tower of
Babel", which comes out quite strongly.  We'll never complete the tower, and
from what we've discovered, the reason that we'll never all speak the same
language and have the same reality is that speaking a different language
helps prevent disease from traveling from one group to another directly.  So
it's a survival mechanism for our species..  But I've experienced that
strong drive to be universally heard and understood, to be one with everyone
around me, as well as the joy of solitude.

But perhaps the statement that "reality isn't real, it's virtual" will set a
few people thinking about that reality is.. it's something that is percieved
over time with our brains, but we don't have a solid definition of where and
how, (or even the hear and now), is now this second, this minute, this hour,
and is here my computer, my mind, this list, or your computer, your mind
...just that it occurs in our perceptions..

Most people assume reality involves some level of physical reality, that is
due to our sense of touch.. and without the sense of touch, reality would
loose a lot of it's reality..  But there are feedback mechanisms between our
senses, there is a mixture of the reality of what is seen with what is felt.
Reach out to touch a chair that you see, and experience has taught that
there will be something felt.  That experience is what has provided the
sense of reality of objects that exist around us.  Remove the sense of
touch, and nothing is real.  One of the very important learning experiences
for children is when they first come across soap bubbles, and they discover
that what they see isn't real, doesn't work the same way.  That it's isn't
felt, that the brightly colored bubbles floating in the air explode when
touched.. I used to watch my daughter play with bubbles for hours and
hours..  She always enjoyed it, and then when I video taped her playing with
the bubbles, she would stand at the TV trying to touch the bubbles, and then
laughed joyfully when see saw herself popping the bubbles in the reality of
the Television.  Of course I video taped her doing doing this, both on the
TV and in front of it.  Perhaps Walter is doing just the same with all of us?

It's quite clear that quite a few people never percieve the tyranny of the
visual sense over a lot of the other senses.  The visual sense is very
strong, (as it probably had to be, helps in hunting and avoiding being
eaten), in terms of it's ability to provide use with a complete enough
reality to bring about immersion, and therefore, a reality for us to be
effective in.  BTW, the visual senses include sight and the visual
imagination.. eyes see, but the visual cortex creates sight.  For other's
the verbal senses are dictating what is "reality".. Then other's have
reading skills and writing skills that have established a different
tyranny.. some decry the tyranny of the scientific method, and other's of
demon's and ghosts..

For me, I've experienced "reality" in a number of modalities.  So I've come
to define Reality as what is real and can be trusted with all of myself..
Reality is that wish which never disappears..  never fails..  Reality is
just a process that I can spend time studying, that becomes richer with that
study, but is never complete, for it isn't real, and never will again
completely be.  Reality is an understanding, and what understanding can ever
be complete or whole?  I'm psychic enough to have experienced out of body
experiences on more than one occasion, both in Cyberspace and other places,
but just because my imagination can soar, doesn't mean that my reality isn't
real, and doesn't need to be tended to.  On the other hand, just because my
reality tricks me into believing it is real, doesn't mean that it is.  We've
discovered that reality is intimately tied to our understandings.. even the
mechanisms of communcation that we have discovered that are mathematical
have in turn be used to describe our own brain processes and realities.  But
take the word understanding apart, and how do you stand except under that
you think?

I'd like to ask how many people on this list have gone for 2 hour walk in
the last week?  Month?  Year?  How many exercise?  How many are aware of the
pain in their hands because of the repetative trauma of typing, and how many
feel the pains in their joints from lack of movement?  How many are aware of
the shortening of the tendons in their forearms from having the hand turned
with the palms down?  How many have experienced the stiffening in the neck
because of focusing on the screen.. how many have felt the fire in their
eyes from the backlit screen, or the pain in the muscles of the eyes with
long term near focus?  How many have felt the withering of their body
because of the reduced bloodflow into their skin and in their body from hour
after hour of inactivity?  How many have noticed the disconnection from
those around them as they become accustomed to the patterns of living
associated with the computer interaction and noticed with shock how
interaction face to face becomes foreign and somehow more raw?  I have.

I suggest that you go out and see life from a different reality, one where
the written word isn't the tyrant of reality..  and one where the
perspectives of life without words can invade what you have come to call
reality..  Perhaps the years that I spent walking in the woods in the Upper
Penisula of Michigan without ever seeing another person, (a few bears, but
not people) have given me a world where the sky and the earth come together
without words..

What is the movie where everyone throws their Televisions out the window?
I've given up TV, but I still have a Cathode Ray Tube in front of me.

I'd suggest that some of the old lessons in the Bible, (You've heard of the
Ten Commandments?  Not that I am what many would call a believer in God), on
Adultery and belief in false Gods are still true today, just the form of the
devil and the false Gods has changed.  But what is the word of God but the
meaning that we carry in the words, and what is that meaning but what those
that have come before us.  I'm come to respect many of those positions and
learned to understand why the combined wisdom of humanity has expressed
these sentiments as a result of living my own life.  Why is it that these
lessons have to be learned over and over the hard way, why did I have to
learn them the hard way?  Why are people learning them here?

I had a great face to face discussion last night about how "feeling" was
something that was learned by being human, and being with humans.  The
discussion took about 2 minutes.  I've spent about 30 minutes on this
message so far..

So what Metaphor-movie is being expressed in this list?

There's a popular song by Seal, which, believe me, when he singing it right
in front of me, with my daughter at my side, 9 years old, at her first rock
concert..  it's got a lot more impact that these soundless, lifeless, barren
words on this computer screen.

****************************************************************

DREAMING IN METAPHORS

(Seal/Isidore) 1994

Love serenade,
Soothe me with the morning sun.
Help me find someone,
Peaceful and non-judgemental.
Holdin' me back,
And make me feel whole with life.
And stay the same.
Life.
Without that pain.

Why must we dream in metaphors?
Try to hold on to something we couldn't understand. (L)
Couldn't understand. (L)
And why must we argue loudly?
When peace is our one salvation.
I couldn't understand (L)
Couldn't understand (L)
Yea...

Ohh, ohh ohh, ohh ohh, ohh ohh (L)
Ohh, ohh ohh, ohh ohh, ohh ohh (L)

Someone lost their faith in,          seeking God so they.
    ...Someone           lost their faith in seeking God so they...

Turn to the needle,           back to the cradle. They were...
      ...Turn to the needle...      ...back to the cradle...

Rocking it all too long.
Tell me what's going on with your life.
Has it stayed the same?

Well why do we dream in metaphors?
Try to hold on to something we couldn't understand. (L)
Couldn't understand. (L)

Tell me why must we argue loudly? When peace is our one,
                 ...why must we argue...
Salvation I couldn't understand (L)
Couldn't understand (L)
Yeah...

Ohh, ohh ohh ohh ohh
Ohh, ohh ohh ohh ohh ohhh...

Life will all...........stay the same...
Life         stay the same

Life          will ease your pain
 ...life without no......pain or shame...

Why must we dream in metaphors?
We're trying to hold on to something we couldn't understand. (L)
Couldn't understand (L)

Tell me why must we argue loudly when peace is our one
                    ...why must we argue...
Salvation I couldn't understand (L)
Couldn't understand (L)

Now why must we duh-ream            in metaphors
                 ...why do we dream          in metaphors...
                                     ...why do we dream...

Something that's lost
              ...couldn't understand stand stand, I couldn't understand.

And you know I couldn't understand I just couldn't understand.

...Couldn't understand stand stand, I couldn't understand.
            ...ahh bah bah bah bah...

And you know I couldn't understand, I just couldn't understand.
                        ...aah, bah bah bah bah...

Couldn't understand stand stand,
I couldn't understand
And you know I couldn't understand,
I just couldn't understand
Couldn't understand stand stand,
I couldn't understand
And you know I couldn't understand,
I just couldn't understand
Couldn't understand stand stand,
I couldn't understand
And you know I couldn't understand,
I just...

************************************************

But then it sounds great pumped though my computer's 4x CD Player into the
old stereo that I've connected to my sound card..  Listening to the rest of
this CD as I write this, I think that it expresses the jist of life in our
times, but that's what popular music does..  I think it's a great album,
(Seal's Second album), and recommend it as a respite from Cyberspace.  It
also makes a great backdrop to this list.  (I think I've said that about 3
times so far..)

Wilbur

PS.  There's a Seal site at http://pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~ariedels/seal.html
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat May 04 11:40:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: dragons and sunrunners (p1)
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 19:40:16 -0400

A game I play is to go out into the web and find the connection, in this
case, with Marie's mention of *dragon*.


>
>The first connection to PSYBER-L, for me, was the idea of mindsharing with
>dragons

As it turns out...I've come back with some Poe, some poetry, and some Po.

All of it a piece of our weaving, wandering and wondering...

(in three parts)

Stephen

***

                               A Dream Within a Dream

                          Take this kiss upon the brow!
                         And, in parting from you now,
                            Thus much let me awow -
                          You are not wrong, who deem
                        That my days have been a dream;
                           Yet if hope has flown away
                              In a night, or in a day,
                             In a vision, or in none,
                           Is it therefore the less gone?
                             All that we see or seem
                         Is but a dream within a dream.

                              I stand amid the roar
                           Of a surf-tormented shore,
                           And I hold within my hand
                             Grains of golden sand -
                          How few! yet how they creep
                         Through my fingers to the deep,
                          While I weep - while I weep!
                              O God! can I not grasp
                           Them with a tighter clasp?
                              O God! can I not save
                           one from the pitiless wave?
                            Is all that we see or seem
                          But a dream within a dream?

                                              by Edgar Allen Poe


***

no dragons here but it was the first place I wandered to; always significant!

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat May 04 11:40:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: dragons and sunrunners (p2)
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 19:40:50 -0400

***


       Dog, where did you get that bark?
       Dragon, where do you get that flame?
       Kitten, where did you get that meow?
       Rose, where did you get that red?
       Bird, where did you get those wings?

       Desiree Lynne Collier
       third or fourth grade

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From hoon@APK.NET Sat May 04 11:43:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: dragons and sunrunners (p3)
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 19:43:45 -0400

***


Li Po's knowledge of alchemy is based chiefly on the Ts'un T'ung Ch'i, a
work first referred to about 500 or earlier, but supposed (rightly, to
judge by the rhyme-system used) to date from about the 2nd century A. D.
and to be the earliest survivng treatise on alchemy in East or West. It
discusses alchemy largely in terms and concepts derived from the Book of
Changes and so brings alchemy within the orb of Confucian studies. So far
as is known Li
Po is the first Chinese writer to quote passages from this book, which in
later times became not only the standby of poets wishing to make elegantly
vague allusions to alchemy, but also one of the bases of Neo-Confucian
cosmology in the 12th century.

Li Po's poem "On Making the Great Elixir" is (except for its concluding
lines) practically a summary of the Ts'an T'ung Ch'i. It begins by
describing the polarity which pervades the Universe. The mating of
opposites is a natural law; the processes of alchemy (which consist
essentially in such matings) are, he says, as much part of Nature as the
alternating mastery of sunshine and
moonlight.

``The Virgin rides in the River Coach (i.e. the mercury lies on the lead);
the gold plays the part of the yoke-bar.'' Then after bringing in a number
of picturesque alchemical terms --- the Red Bird (i.e.fire), the White
Tiger (spirit of Metal and of the West), he announces that the Great Elixir
``that is
inseprable from Tao itself'' lies ready in all its splendor. Everything, he
continues, is now in the adept's power; ``he can caress the sun; Paradise
itself is but an ell away.''

       In the Kingdom of Death his name has dropped from the rolls
       The Southern Pole-Star lists him in its Book of Lives.

The poet then claims that he too should be counted as belonging, in his own
way, to the category ``magician.'' His genius, he says, is such that he
could easily, if he had chosen to do so, have played a conspicuous part in
the public affairs of his day, but he has deliberately cast away such a
career in scorn, and
he invites Liu Kuan-t'i, the friend to whom the poem is addressd, to give
up all thought of carving out a career for himself at Ch'ang-an and go with
him ``in a chariot bron aloft swifter than wind or lightning by the phoenix
and dragon'' to the Jade Emperor's Fairy Palace in the Ninth Heaven.

In such passages Li Po is, I think, not merely paying tribute to a fanciful
mythology. The quest he speaks of is the yu (travelling, wandering) of the
early Taoist philosophers, which was a spiritual not a bodily journey.

***

dragons, polarity, wandering, and the clincher:

not a bodily journey...

how oddpointed. ;-)

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat May 04 15:48:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 03:48:12 GMT

Hi barbara and all,

> i get the surreal part, but isn't Blade Runner kind of dark and
> depressing?  A very stark view of the future and humankind...I would
> rather our metaphor be more hopeful.

Well a few are seeing this darkness, I think it is worth noticing that
they do!  Mind you it has been matched by _sunrunner_ .  The movie
certainly has the theme of:  Who is Real.  However for me it is far
too dark as well -- it is the forerunner of those gibson antiutopia
futures.  I don't like his future projection, nor is it accurate IMO.
Like so many stories about virtuality he introduces _physical_ danger
on the net via wet ware.  More interesting is the question of
psychological danger, (and of course RSI as Wilbur has been reminding
us.)  I thought I was closer with My Dinner with Andre!   (Worth
seeing!)  The images could not be further apart.  Perhaps they could,
saw Bad Lieutenant last night -- too dark and disturbing for me,
agony.

It goes to show how differently we experience this realm.  I am
listening to Seal, went out on my _bike_ (Wilbur) and bought it.
Nice, but too soon for me to see how it fits.

Perhaps it is something to do with how we receive this mail.  If it
goes to one big junk heap of mail, unsorted and untended, mixed with
unsolicited email etc, it would be a different worldscape to the likes
of me who has it in one big black on white list, all sorted and
viewable by author, date or subject.


Back to rl, lawns, dinner, and out with Kate.  Though I feel a strong
pull to just stay on here.  Strong, disturbing.


Walter

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From anitak@MEGABAUD.FI Sat May 04 20:30:56 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Dreams, nonverbal thinking,carnal love
From: Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 11:30:56 +0300

Dreams,  nonverbal  thinking,
carnal love



Hi all,

I'm   greatly animated  by your discussion on    metaphors,  poetics,
meaning of language. Unfortunately  I have not  enough time ( because  of un
urgent writing-work) to translate my thoughts in English.  Limits of my
language are  limits of my world (Wittgenstein).  I'm especially
enthusiastic  about  the  coming  dream-event.  Thirty years, since
school-girl  I've  studied my dreams, and three years ago I published an
autobiographical book on dreams (Woman in the Mirror of Dreams).   To my
mind  dreams are  nonverbal thinking,  visual thinking. Al night long
images  are streaming.  And words too, if  one is a verbal dreamer.  Our
emotions   change  into images,  and images change into metaphoric words.
Most metaphors of language are worn out  - to  grasp for example -  we don't
grasp  any more that it  has been image.  Every night  our unconsciousness
converts  conceptual language back to   concrete   origins.  When  I
formerly  practised  Zen meditation  I  remarked  how impossible is to put
an end to thinking.  In the  beginning   there the words were streaming,
then  the images were streaming  in the consciousness.

To Marie who wrote:


>Was I with the wrong men?  Definitely.  Good men, both of them, but not men
>with whom I could be myself.  Do I assume that this reflects some deficiency
>in me, that I was not able to find someone to love me as I am?  I don't
>believe that.  The fickle hand of fate plays a role here, and the capricious
>swirls of circumstance and opportunity.  I simply have not been fortunate
>enough to meet the *right* person.


To my mind  people find precisely the person they need , in their
soul-making. There is no bad  or good fortune in meeting   the   meaningful
other.  As a  writer I fell silent for thirteen years after my father death.
He died during the week when I received the galley proofs of my first novel,
in which I dared  break  the forth commandment, and write critically about
paternal power.  It was  true syncronicity!  I felt guilty over the death my
father, I stopped writing and became engaged to a man who hated writing,
which increased my depression.   The meeting of  this man was not a chance
or  *bad luck*. During my years of silence I read my own story  in the poems
of Anna Akhmatova.  Especially  one poem  echoed in my head  like a
comforting mantra:

   No, this is not me  -someone else suffers.
   I couldn't stand this: let black drapes
   cover what happened,
   and let them  take away the lamps...
     Night.


Dolores (Laurel) wrote:

>Men  have lied to me with a touches with smiles and I have lied to men with
>the same..if a touch or a smile were all it took to truly know somebody then
>we wouldnt have had to have invented divorce.

>Ultimatly, who are you to presume to know what touches my soul, what has
>touched my soul or the manner in which that touch was made?

Owing to  the dialectic  of Psyberbia I  attach  in the end  an extract from
my novel. It is a praise on the carnal love:

I wouldn't like to lose Pedro just when I'm starting get used to his slow,
meditative lovemaking. The better I get to know his body, the more pleasure
I get from it. I've noticed that a man will give you the greatest joy and
pleasure when you demand or expect nothing from him. Then love feels like a
gift from Heaven. When I was younger, I expected miracles or at least
everlasting love from men. When I wasn't getting any, I blamed them. These
days I'm satisfied with less. Even small miracles are enough, like the light
I saw last night on Pedro's forehead. I thought he was turning into a saint
because his head was glowing with light. Perhaps he had become immortal
during the night, because I had had eleven orgasms. Although I nearly lost
the count after the fifth one. Taoists say that a man becomes immortal if he
gives eleven orgasms to a woman during one night. Of a woman's immortality
they say nothing. Men do better to become Taoists than Christians since they
can redeem their immortality in such a pleasant way.

The rain had stopped, the moon was shining on the bed through a chink in the
curtains, night-time radio was playing Summertime although it was nearly
November. I laid a rose on Pedro's chest and caressed his forehead which
shone like silver, for a moment I thought I saw his true being, which can
only be seen by someone in love. The light was the pure light of love, I
knew, but he lied when He said that he was not in love with me or anybody
else, because he was already an old man ( fifty-two) and wouldn't dream of
falling in love like some young oaf, instead he was going to come and make
love  to me still when  he is eighty-two years old, health permitting and
God willing, because I am the greatest joy in his life. Perhaps I don't know
what he means by love, it may be something else to a man than a woman, but
at least his hands, his member, his eyes and  his mouth love my body, and
that is enough for me. Men's words shouldn't be taken seriously, they blurt
out the first thing that comes to their mind. If they say they are in love,
they'll have forgotten it  by tomorrow. I trust their hands instead. Hands
don't lie like the mouth does. If the touch is hard and impatient like that
of a dentist who is bored with his job, then the man is not in love, even if
he were to go down on his knees and swear it.

Anita

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat May 04 20:40:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Sons (and daughters) . . .
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 08:40:12 GMT

Hi  Wilbur,


> At 02:00 AM 4/11/96 -0400, you wrote:

The person you are referring to Wilbur, I think is John M, and he's
gone (I think).

He said:

> > Wilber, or should I call you Faustus?

And you two have an interesting conversation about the face on the
screen.

You go on to speak of the golden spike:
> > This is an allusion to
> > the 'Iron Horse' of the late 1800's.  Railroads were being constructed
> > simultaneously in the United States from the West Coast and the East
> > Coast/Midwest.  I think one place where the rails converged was in Utah.  A
> >golden spike was emplaced to symbolize the completion of an unifying goal.

I like that, a useful symbol.  I could do with placing a few golden
spikes.

Just wanted to say that.


All for now.


Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat May 04 20:40:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Encyclopedia was Re: e-mail comm expressivity
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 08:40:16 GMT

Hi  Alyss

> I love the idea of the InnerNetEncyc.  What about Lacan-Cluseau, the French
> phenomenlogical detective who found ghosts in closets and gave them back to
> their owners.  Alyss.

InnerNet  Wow!   Been thinking about this stuff all day.  Will say
more in my response to Charles.

But what about this phenomenologist, where did he come from?  Am I not
quite getting a joke?



Walter

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From judithb@sbc1.com Sat May 04 23:48:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 11:48:20 GMT

<Jurek, the movie definitely IS Bladerunner, the director's cut.  Lives on the
net are brief.  There are so many contacts, so many memories, so many things
lost like tears in the rain. Nothing in our past lives has prepared us for
this future world we are now living in with our fragile hearts suspended
between our fragile technologies.  Alyss.
>

I had a sense when I read your lines, Alyss, of multiple threads of myselves
intertwining with other selves threads, creating variations on selves weaving
into a sense of deep oneness. For me this space evokes threads of myselves to
entertwine, a potential discovery of an-other within myself, magnetized,
drawn out. The potential aha of a me lying dormant, the moreness of myself
than I have potential for in my townspace.
My words inadequate to describe the sensesensation of *here.* Music...
judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun May 05 00:05:57 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 12:05:57 GMT

All,

We have just been to see Sense and Sensibility.  That fits to some
extent.  Kate & I were talking on the way home of how gripping the
movie was, as if it were Indiana Jones,  then Kate said:  we are on
the edge of the chair waiting to see if the communication gets
through!

I noticed the oppositionunity of the headheart.


Walter

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Sun May 05 00:37:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie or reality
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 08:37:25 -0400

Wilbur,

I'm glad you're still here.

You didn't address your words to me, but I'm going to respond to some of them
anyway. You know -- you remind me of Inspector Javert, in Les Miserables:
 <<... and those who follow the path of the righteous/shall have their
reward...>>  He was a righteous man, but not a compassionate one.

<<But I've experienced that strong drive to be universally heard and
understood, to be one with everyone around me, as well as the joy of
solitude.>>

Balance is the key, isn't it?  I know the joy of solitude; I seem to need
more time alone than most people.  And I know the joy of human connection,
whether in words or f2f.

<<I'm psychic enough to have experienced out of body experiences on more than
one occasion, both in Cyberspace and other places, but just because my
imagination can soar, doesn't mean that my reality isn't real, and doesn't
need to be tended to.>>

Balance, again.  I often lose my sense of my body, of the chair beneathe me,
when I meditate -- but I would not want to spend so much time in that
wordless state of transcendence that I could not find my way back again.  My
reality is real, and I enjoy it, and I tend to its needs.

<<I'd like to ask how many people on this list have gone for 2 hour walk in
the last week?  Month?  Year?  How many exercise??>>

Tending the needs of the body -- a weak area, for me.  It always was, long
before there was this land of the interior in which I choose to invest some
of my time.  I exercise, but not enough.  Point well taken.

<<I suggest you go out and see life from a different reality, one where the
written word isn't the tyrant of reality.. and one where the perspectives of
life without words can invade what you have come to call reality..>>

The written word is not a tyrant in my life, but a means of expression and
communication.  I know the silent voice of nature -- trees, rivers,
waterfalls -- the light of sun, moon, and stars -- soft whispering breezes
and gentle rain.  I know the power of music -- to calm, to wound, to inspire,
to shake my spirit free, to exalt.  I know the language of art -- pattern,
and color -- the meditative process of creativity that releases my mind from
the linear world of words.  I know the silence of communion -- to join with
others, in a Healing Circle -- to merge my energy with those beside me, to
feel held in an embrace built of silent soul.

<<I'd suggest that some of the old lessons in the Bible, (You've heard of the
Ten Commandments?  Not that I am what many would call a believer in God), on
Adultery and belief in false Gods are still true today, just the form of the
devil and the false Gods has changed....>>

Ah, the cold conviction of the righteous.

<<I had a great face to face discussion last night about how "feeling" was
something that was learned by being human, and being with humans.  The
discussion took about 2 minutes.  I've spent about 30 minutes on this message
so far..>>

If your desire for being with humans can be satisfied by 2 minutes of
conversation, why do you choose to spend 30 minutes or more wrestling with
the words you bring here?

<<with my daughter at my side, 9 years old, at her first rock concert..>>

An image of you that made me smile, Wilbur.  The last *concert* I took my
daughter to was Les Miserables, on Broadway, and we sometimes sit together
and sing the score to each other.  (This connection is what brought Javert to
my mind.)

I know the words I share here open me to people who would analyze and judge,
and I do not enjoy being a target for those activities.  I choose to explore
this reality -- choice, not compulsion -- as fully as possible, so I accept
the downside as well as the potential for understanding.  Your words remind
me that I must strive in my life to devote time to that which sustains
everything that I am -- body, mind, spirit, soul.  Balance.

Thank you for sharing.

<<Medieval philosophers made a distinction between three kinds of light and
three kinds of eyes....  we have eyes of flesh, which see with exterior
light... the physical world of sense objects and matter.  Next, we have an
eye of reason, which sees the interior light, the truths of reason, mind, and
knowledge.  Last, we have an eye of contemplation, which sees with higher or
transcendent light the ultimate reality of oneness, the ground of Being.>>
      -- Dr. Ralph Metzner

Marie

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From hoon@APK.NET Sun May 05 00:54:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Dreams, nonverbal thinking,carnal love
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 08:54:45 -0400

Anita,

Welcome! I look forward to your contribution to this weaving and the
imagining of the dream game. You have much experience. And, you're able to
write about it -clearly, poetically.

(Now I'll let the poets welcome you more tunefully.)

Stephen

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sun May 05 09:46:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: 640 The price of Love
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 22:46:29 +0100

A psychic once said to me, "You have lived many lives"
My immediate, half smiled response was to ask " If they had all been as
unfullfilled as this one?"
She replied, " That as I had not yet finished with the life I had it was a
little premature as yet to judge whether or not it had been lived fullfilled
or unfullfilled and that there was always the potential to change our
destinys. Maybe mine was as I chose it ultimatly to be and that the power of
fullfillment rested soley in my hands"

Love bled across my keyboard. It bled out over the individual keys, draining
them of their colour until all that was left were the fine indentations
where the letters used to be.
I shared my life at the touch of my fingertips, and in the cold light of day
when love had left, the touch remained but not the emotion that had lain
behind the words, missing now empty words filled only with melancholy
remained to be struck with stuccato dolefullness by my fingers. The words
had lost their light and warmth and I had lost something I couldnt define.

There was nobody to share my loss, no communal mourning at the graveside, no
comfort over the sandwiches as that part of my life was replayed in fond
memories and anecdotes of the past. It was a lonely loss, and the tears that
stung my cheeks with bitter salts where shared by none, and witnessed by
nobody, except a dog that would never understand, and a child that was too
young too.

Love I realised had a price, as do all things, and the price of love is its
eventual but unavoidable loss. That love can never be relied on, nor
dismissed lightly,  like a bird held too tightly it will choke, and held too
lightly fly away.
It is the ultimate abandonment.

The price of intimacy is the wrenching apart at some point of feelings
shared, as the person that has the other half of all you are is suddenly no
longer there and you are left once more with the internalised empty
loneliness of all that you are and represent. There is a helpnessness in
knowing,  that you never realised just how much they shared or how much they
took with them as they left with or how that balances on the scales of
fullfillment.
I am my destiny,  it took another to show me that and to show me that we all
travel that path alone in the end.

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Sun May 05 11:08:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: love of language and defining comm
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 18:08:29 -0500

To Robert and Charles in particular, but other Psyberians in general:
        Robert--in your note in response to my discussion of the nature of
comunication you said that I had found a way to "bridge the gaps that have
grown in the *camps* of communication." Thank you--you could have given me no
higher compliment--and indeed such bridging is very much a part of what I am
burning to do, both professionally and personally. Some of this may come from
being an INFP (introverted, iNtuitive, Feeling, Perceiving a la Meyers Briggs)
as I am quite vested in finding the patterns which bring the various parts of
anything together (and honestly struggle when the STs (sensing/thinking types)
in my life don't "get" it when the big picture seems so intuitively "there"!).
        I am quite attracted by your idea of using our own dialogues to explore
the question of defining the true and the real in communication--which leads to
exploring the questions of the true and real in relationships. To "search for
the meanings which are heard yet not voiced as text," as you suggest seems a
critical part of that exploration as is the contexting of what we say (Wilbur,
Laurel, Walter, Marie, and you Robert are modeling this with great courage--my
God, what teachers we have found for one another in being ourselves!).
        Your comment on the bridging of gaps makes a nice link for me into waht
Charles had to say on the love of language. Thank you, Charles, for naming one
of the aspects of this psyber-group that I find so appealing, intriguing,
seducing. So rare to find a group of people enraptured by words, by their
music, their cacophany (is that spelled correctly?), by the depth and breadth
of expression afforded by words, by the blockages which occur when our thoughts
and feelings outpace the words we have. Your coinages of "stereophany" and
"solunary terms" have jumpstarted my thoughts about singularities and dualities
which had been stalled for a while. I've spent 3 years now developing a graphic
model of the major paradigms of academia, which I think are the by-product of
the major dualites of human thought--the rational versus the other-rational (I
object to the terms irrational and non-rational ), the scientific versus the
humanistic, the precise versus the creative, the sensing versus the intuitive,
the thinking versus the valuing. These dualities often get presented as if they
are binary opposites, but are they really? Are they not part of a larger
harmony, if we could be open enough to see it? wise enough to look beyond our
own predispositions for making sense of the world to see other ways? The
singularity seems so characteristic of the Aristotelean/Cartesian dualities
which ground the Western world in either/or constructions--but what of the more
Eastern, more Zen Buddhist approach which allows for a both/and? This both/and
is captured eloquently in your coinages of "stereophany" (esp. with the notion
of epiphany as an awakening into a new way of seeing/feeling) and "solunary
terms"--what better way to capture the both/and than in the description of "a
polyphonic moment in an otherwise monophonic" state. This calls to mind Mozart
in The Marriage of Figaro (I think), in which one voice begins, is met with a
second, and then a third, a fourth, a fifth, ....... What results is not a
jumble of opposition, but the harmony which comes of multiple resonances,
multiple meanings.  At the most encompassing level, Judith's "personal
Universe" shows us the way to resolve the dialectics of life.
        Funny how ancient and modern these dialectics are. The opening line of
Aristotle's _Rhetoric_ is that "rhetoric is the counterpart of dialectics." The
dialectic to which he refers is the use of dialogue to arrive at a discoverable
truth--the counterpoint of two voices to discover oneness. This idea of
dialogue was popularized by one of his teachers (Plato), but Aristotle put his
own twist on it. Plato himself argued that dialectics was the primary way to
seek truth, but all to seldom modeled it as a technique for open
inquiry--instead it was often the instrument by which Socrates viciously put
down other voices to demonstrate his own derived truth (I always shudder when
someone tells me they build their teaching around Socratic dialogue--in a form
driven by openness and civility, it can be a marvelous means of testing and
exploring ideas; in a form meant to harass students for not already knowing the
"truth" held by the examiner, it can be a cruel means of humiliation and
egoposturing.) Dialectics today is often the focus of research in interpersonal
communication, esp. by Leslie Baxter. She identifies 3 key dialectics for
personal relationships (autonomy/connectedness, openness/closedness, novelty/
stability). Part of what she has found is that when people get stuck in seeing
the dialectics as binary, a win-lose mentality takes over; when people can step
outside of the dialectics with a "solunary" approach, the relationship has the
opportunity to have , for example autonomy AND connection, without thinking
that one has to replace the other.
        I experienced this "solunarity" (good heavens, Charles, what a useful
word this is!) in a very different realm this week, one which reminded me of
something Stephen said about experiencing connectedness over the net at a
cellular level. I take a class in Tai Chi, which is an ancient Chinese art
often paralled with the martial arts, but with a focus on physical and
spiritual grouwth. Although I've been working at this since January, only this
week was I invited to take the pieces and begin to put them together into a
"set"--into a sequence of movements which had some unity to them. (OK-I guess
I've spent almost 40 years learning to walk and carry myself poorly, so I
shouldn't grouse about 4 months to begin to do it more properly :)  ). At any
rate, Thursday  opened the door to a new way of being. We begin the "prologue"
(my term--I dont' have the Chinese terms for all these movements yet) in a
state of emptiness, a openness for what is to come--in this movement, the goal
is to empty one's mind, to become an open vessel, to center physically and
spiritually, open and waiting. The next movement (which is actually called Tai
Chi, I think) introduces an "attitude" of movement, a shifting into a hint of
beingness from nothingness [this is difficult to explain--actually Charles gave
me a key to this in his earlier description of his imaging as the "picture
before the picture"--when my instructor was trying to explain the metaphysics
of this, I heard Charles words in my mind, shifted them and ask "is it the
thought before the thought?" The instructor paused, then smiled--"Yes, exactly,
that is exactly what it is"]. The third movement is to step out with one leg,
making a separation--the oneness of the "attitude" has become concrete in the
duality of yin and yand, physically one separates into two parts, emptiness has
moved through idea to fullness. Now the movement, with the extension of
arms divides two into four; now with bent knees and elbows,  four becomes
eight--the basic structuring of cell division is played out with the body. At
this point, the movements which shift weight, alter orientation in space to the
floor, the walls, the self, begin, allowing one to experience fully the
movement of contraction/expansion, feminine/masculine, strength/relaxation. It
is solunarity of the body and soul--polyphony in an otherwise monophonic body.
How synchronous for this to come to me now, at a time of verbal solunarity--a
way, thanks to insights gifted from psyberians, that makes so much more sense
than it could have even a few months ago. And so the love of language opens a
door to love of physicality and spirituality and self.
                Susan
divides two into four; then

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Sun May 05 12:06:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 19:06:49 -0500

In thinking about the movieMetaphor, I don't have a suggestion formulated yet,
but agree with Barbara that BladeRunner is more dark and constricting than
would capture my experience with the folks in psyber-links. I haven't seen the
movie yet, but the title "the Unbearable Lightness of Being" strikes me as more
to the core.
                Susan

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Sun May 05 12:35:39 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dreams, nonverbal thinking,carnal love
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 19:35:39 -0500

Welcome, Anita--your writing has touched me in this time of grieving a
relationship, a time of wondering what happened when the truth of the hands
turned into the lie of the words--an abuse of the soul if not of the body. Your
discussion of dreams intrigues me. Do images really stream for you all night?
Dreams seem so sporadic to me--they come in clumps, with nothing I can recall
for months at a time and then bang, days (or nights) of vivid, long, complicated
dreams. (Unfortunately right now they are mostly nightmares--there's a negative
masculine in there that would rather kill me off than have me put him in his
proper place. Perhaps you are right--the person we need is the one who
appears--and I needed the man I just broke off with to stir up this baggage
again --maybe I'm strong enough this time to work it. )  Hmmmm-I wonder if the
clumping of dreams has to do with how I "see" images--I too do not "see" images
in my mind as pictures. I tend to experience them as feelings or intuitions
--as collections of auras, which if they get precise enough get formed into
wordPictures, with the words shaping out the objects, people, actions. Maybe
the visual dreams have to get more intense, to break through a threshhold,
before they can be recognized and recalled. (--I'm very intrigued by Walter and
Charles' Dream Group--perhaps that too will give me new ways of thinking about
dreams and dreaming.)
        Thanks for inspiring me to new ways of thinking about this. Good to
have you here.
                Susan


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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Sun May 05 13:07:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: 640 The price of Love
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 20:07:12 -0500

Laurel (I could use Dolores, but Laurel reminds me of the evergreen that covers
the mountainsides of my youth, creating labyrinths of limbs and leaves --- it
is the hardiest of plants, but the most delicate of flowers in the springtime.
):
        Do we really travel the path ultimately alone? Are we truly isolated
forever once we eat of the Tree of Knowledge and are expelled from the Garden
of Eaden? Many have agreed with you--I have agreed with you many times from the
depths of despair. It reminds me of Elizabeth Cady Stanton's last speech (she
was a women's right activist in the 1890's)--the speech is called "The Solitude
of Self." In it she argued that women must have equal rights as men because we
are ultimately alone and in this solitude of self, we must all have the
resources to exist, not just the men.
        The eternally hopeful part of me though reverbrates to what Alyss and
Marie say--maybe our selves are "build upon a sense of loss and separateness,"
but we are always moving to meet that transpersonal nature again, in the
glimpses of others, in the "almost-connections"- (qtd. from Alyss)
-through our stories, we have
the capacity to bridge the gulf which individuation has given us--through
"empathy and authentic dialogue" we can find the "building blocks for a new,
synergistic paradigm of human interaction" -- to create our own reality (qtd.
Marie).  Maybe we only get to experience the connectedness, the oneness,the
stereophany, the solunarity, in bits and pieces until we can figure out how to
bear the intensity of oneness extended--of autonomyConnection, of selfOther.
(or if nothing else, the hope of it gives us something to cling to when the
gales of isolation rage--or the silence of aloneness shouts).

                Susan


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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Sun May 05 13:11:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: love of language
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Sat, 4 May 1996 20:11:58 -0500

To all--much to my astonishment in reading Stephen's response to what I had
written, I realized that a message that I thought had been poofed into oblivion
by the computer yesterday had actually was sent out. I created and sent
a message today which tried to
recreate some of the same thoughts. My apologies for the duplication--how
strange to be reading ghosts of my own words which I thought were no more.
        Susan

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun May 05 20:24:07 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dreams, nonverbal thinking,carnal love
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 08:24:07 GMT

Anita ,

Dreams,  nonverbal  thinking,
carnal love

> Our
> emotions   change  into images,  and images change into metaphoric words.
> Most metaphors of language are worn out  - to  grasp for example -  we don't
> grasp  any more that it  has been image.  Every night  our unconsciousness
> converts  conceptual language back to   concrete   origins.


That puts into words how I experience dreams, sometimes the images
speak so clearly . . . a dream of being stuck in a tight place, has so
much more impact than the words :  I feel stuck in tight place.  The
language here is worn out . . . even now I do better to think of our
old doormat, hardly hair enough to wipe feet.


~~~

> To my mind  people find precisely the person they need , in their
> soul-making. There is no bad  or good fortune in meeting   the   meaningful
> other.

I think of us in another timespace celestial gathering plotting how we
would make sure we get the meetings with those we need for our soul's
journey on  earthly.  I envisage conversations like:  OK, jack up with
your guardian angel to make sure you are in Paris 1997 -- for the
whole year.  I'll be there.  No, I have to be in hospital in Africa
then, make it 98.  The internet has made our guardian angel's job a
lot easier!


>    No, this is not me  -someone else suffers.
>    I couldn't stand this: let black drapes
>    cover what happened,
>    and let them  take away the lamps...
>      Night.


I notice there has been some talk lately here on Psyber-L of dark and
light solunary words, eyes for various light, the dark futurescapes of
Blade Runner.  The poem you bring is black indeed.  Yet by letting the
drapes fall and taking away the lamps you draw attention to that
darkness . . . you also spoke earlier of the shadow.  Do you have eyes
for these dark places?


~~~

You respond to Dolores (Laurel) with an extract from your novel.  A
delightful way to bring your words here.  All on our theme here of
what is real, who can we trust, what is love.  I told a friend who
used to read Psyber-L, but who has not read much of it for a year or
more, that this question was on our lips here.  "Still!"  he said he
said somewhat surprised.   It is, and will be for some time I think.
The question is _highlighted_ here but not exclusive to cyberspace by
any means, as your novel extract shows.  In a Sunday morning lie in,
connecting with Kate this morning,  I noticed that I saw feelings in
her, which were there, but which were also my projection and belonged
more to me.  Sharing what I learned about me in this way brought us .
. . we had some tears and they seemed to belong to us both.  Knowing
who is on the otherside of the screen, the eyes, or the whole body,
can become clear when we project ourselves into that person and then
learn about ourselves and share that process!


> Hands
> don't lie like the mouth does. If the touch is hard and impatient like that
> of a dentist who is bored with his job, then the man is not in love, even if
> he were to go down on his knees and swear it.


You are celebrating the carnal, actions speak louder than words . . .
and that is true for the moment you describe in the novel I am sure.

I know you trust using your physical senses, just as others here use
something different at times.  Strangely enough I learn all this about
you, here in words!  Your authenticity is strong to me.  Virtual
authenticity.  I think of that when I hear people say that one could
not trust therapists on the net, how would one know  their
qualifications, how could one verify them?  The brass plate or the
certificates on my wall do not reveal me as much as a quick search
through the public archives here.  I feel transparent to the world.  I
imagine the day might come when one would not want to trust someone
without being able to access their electronic revelations.

All the best,


Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun May 05 22:13:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Encyclopedia
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 10:13:22 GMT

Charles and all,


> Once again, I come back to the idea that for a *format* we couldn't do
> better than look at Christopher Alexander's *Pattern Language*...

As you know I love this book.  I often take it with me and find I do
not read far as before long I am so inspired that I must write!  It
helps me to make alterations to the house, to think of groups I run
and so on.

By following the links from your page:

http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

I went to:

http://www.anamorph.com/docs/patterns/default.html

And found a description of the form you mention above:


::    a name, which describes the pattern succinctly, and indicates in a
::    few words what needs to be done to solve a particular problem;

::    a problem description, which delineates some conflict between
::    forces within a given environment;

::    a discussion, which explains the problem in more detail, and
::    describes empirical evidence for the existence of the problem; and

::    a solution, or instruction, that gives one method of solving
::    the problem.


Is this the sort of thing you had in mind?  I think for short psyber
essays the form could be developed, expanded.  I love form, in the way
a painter must love a blank canvas.


The HTML pattern language site is inspiring and I am playing around
with revisions of my web pages once again.


Walter

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From anitak@MEGABAUD.FI Sun May 05 23:10:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dreams, nonverbal thinking,carnal love
From: Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 14:10:38 +0300

Susan

At 19:35 4.5.1996 -0500, you wrote:
> Do images really stream for you all night?

No, I exaggerated a bit. Not all dreams are visual. I have met one woman,
who told that she hears, never sees, dreams. The frequency of dreams is
every 1,5 hour per night. When I made preparations for my dream-book, I
programmed myself to wake up  every 1,5 hours. With that method I cought
three or four dreams per night. But the major part was nonsense, merely a
nightly entertainment for brains. They need that kind entertainmenet  to
stay in order.  One recalls only  meaningful, emotional and highly energetic
dreams. Transformative and archetypal dreams are of that kind. You  cannot
forget them. Before  and during the change of life  one sees  meaningful
dreams. And  after the separation. There  is  such a stuff of angry and
oppressing emotions.  It is very good that unconsciousness is treating and
healing those emotions  in the dreams.That's why there is an aggressive
masculine in your dreams, now.

Best regards
Anita


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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Mon May 06 06:04:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Encyclopedia was Re: e-mail comm expressivity
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 12:04:22 -0600

Psyberians and Charles in particular:

        Charles, your support of Walter's idea is well expressed.

>Excellent post from Walter re the possibilities of internet mail as a
>seeding ground for longer writing projects.  I too have been thinking along
>these lines for a while, see many excellent posts that are already half way
>to personal-definitive statements.

        There was an attempt being made on NETDYNAM for a group writing
project which I have not followed as I have unsubbed from that list.  I
think that we could indeed put together such a set of writings.

>More specifically, I think we could put together an "innernet" encyclopedia
>which would deal with psychological and spiritual topics, and have articles
>on topics ranging from metaphor and shadow to acupuncture and meditation,
>sometimes two or three articles on the same topic but from different
>perspectives.

        This *Inner-net en-psych-lopedia* would be a true representationof
the nuances of communication stuctures and messages as we are learning to
perceive them.

>Some writers would contribute personal viewpoints, some
>would summarize the exchanges on a given topic between a dozen interested
>participants...

        I would enjoy being part of such an august assemblage.  Having just
finished a chapter (this past winter) for inclusion in a four volume set of
books dealing with on-line education, the set being done on the 'net, I
found the experience of working with others on-line for such a task very
rewarding.

>I'm not thinking here of a factual encyclopedia of myth -- we have those
>already -- but a mythic encyclopedia of fact...

        A mythical encylopedia of a listserv's psyche - the psyche on a
listserv.

Robert de Cyberie

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Mon May 06 10:14:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie or reality?
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 16:14:12 -0600

>To: Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
>From: longpre@mailhost.sasknet.sk.ca
>Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie or reality?
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>Wilbur,
>
>        Good to hear your voice.
>
>>Well, I decided that the devil was sufficiently under control to post
>>again.. not that I'm quite as appreciative of the posts that I've seen as it
>>appears that others are.
>
>        Appreciativeness is not an issue.  Your WILL to be *present* is the
only issue.
>
>>recurring theme is metaphorhically is the same as the "Tower of
>>Babel", which comes out quite strongly.  We'll never complete the tower, and
>>from what we've discovered, the reason that we'll never all speak the same
>>language and have the same reality is that speaking a different language
>>helps prevent disease from traveling from one group to another directly.
>
>        Disease?  Dis-ease?  Could this be a manifestation of the shadow
and light within one evident within the many?  Of course we'll never all
speak the same language.  Language is constructed from experience,
experience of culture, experience of community, of family, of individual
interactions AND the *inner* experiences of the psyche/soul.  All we can do
is to meet each other for moments of negotiation and affirmation - for
communion.
>
>>But I've experienced that
>>strong drive to be universally heard and understood, to be one with everyone
>>around me, as well as the joy of solitude.
>
>        Exactly!  The need to meet with another IN ANY MEDIUM, IN ANY
SPACE/PLACE.  Alone-ness is much different than *solitude*.  Through our
contacts with others in which we see our *self* in relation to another, we
banish the feeling of *alone-ness*,
>
>>Reality is an understanding, and what understanding can ever
>>be complete or whole?
>
>        Thus we have reality becoming a gossamer thread of thought
constantly being constructed and re-constructed by each of us.
>
>>I'd like to ask how many people on this list have gone for 2 hour walk in
>>the last week?  Month?  Year?  How many exercise?
>
>        I'm a person very grounded in my body.  I walk daily - long walks.
I have had to give up running and road-racing due to too much stress on the
feet which has caused heel spurs (reduced to occasional jogging).  Thus the
walking and daily cycling.  Longer trail hikes are a treat during the summer
when I don't have to worry about teaching.
>
>>How many are aware of the pain
>
>        Pain in hip and back and wrist (athletic injuries: skiing, cycling,
baseball, etc.).  Some of us push hard as we try to stay *connected* to
*reality*.
>
>>How many have noticed the disconnection from those around them
>
>        A skill that is picked up early in life as we try to block out
psychic pain.  I haven't learned that courtesy of the 'net.  It comes
naturally.  If anything, the 'net has allowed me to reach out to *real*
people and help me banish the feelings of being isolated in my being
different from the others of my *real-time* world.  Being a poet and
philosopher has its drawbacks.
>
>>So what Metaphor-movie is being expressed in this list?
>
>        I haven't any idea at all here.  I don't make a lot of space in my
life for television or film.  I live in the outdoor world when not in the
classroom or at home.  Can this be expressed as a movie?
>
>Robert de Cyberie
>
>
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
 %%     Robert George Lucien Joseph Longpre       %%
  %%             Sieur de Cyberie               %%
   %%%         poete et philosophe            %%%
  %%        dans la toundra cyberienne          %%
 %%            longpre@sasknet.sk.ca              %%
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Mon May 06 10:34:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 16:34:46 -0600

>To: Psyber-L
>From: longpre@mailhost.sasknet.sk.ca
>
>Bienvenue Anita!
>
>Sun-runner, Fibre-runner, Psyber-runner
>Mating of the tiger, the mermaid, and the ghosts
>Timespace, mythospace
>My space, Thy space
>A dreamspace
>
>Robert de Cyberie
>
>

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Mon May 06 10:34:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: an entanglement of souls
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 16:34:52 -0600

>To: Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
>From: longpre@mailhost.sasknet.sk.ca
>Subject: Re: an entanglement of souls
>
>Walter, Marie, and others,
>
>        I would like to look at our links here in Psyberia, as Marie does
with a look at Moore's words in _Care of the Soul_.  But before I do, I
recall Walter's words:
>
>>The power of the Internet helps us make links like never before
>>...  I guess we all feel the force of people's words on the screen here in
>>some way.
>
>        Marie also quotes from Moore:
>
><<Every relationship ... is an entanglement of souls.>>
>
>Moore looks at the soul in its quest for communion:
>
>::We have a spiritual longing for community and relatedness
>::and for a cosmic vision, but we go after them with literal
>::hardware instead of with sensitivity of the heart.  We
>::want to know all about people from far away places, but we
>::don't want to feel emotionally connected to them.
>
>        As I re-read that passage, I thought of our dialogues here.  What
is this quest of PSYBER-L but that of a *longing for community and
relatedness*?  Reading the vision statement by Walter for the _list_, there
is *cosmic vision*, a *quest*. In the dialogues of Wilbur, Barbara, and
others, I hear the quest grounding itself in the tangibles of communication.
Then the voices of Stephen, Stephen, Laurel, and Marie come forward
sensitive to every nuance that the heart produces.  Some risk the emotion
connections of those far away.  Others deny its possibility.  Yet, for all
of that, we cling here together in the *quest*.
>
>Robert de Cyberie
>
>

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Mon May 06 10:34:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Blind on the Withinside...
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 16:34:58 -0600

>To: Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
>From: longpre@mailhost.sasknet.sk.ca
>Subject: Re: Blind on the Withinside...
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>Charles and fellow Psyberians,
>
>        I am a visual thinker AND a conceptual thinker.  As I take a long
jog, I visualize many scenes, the Boston Marathon, perfect form, an
impeccable body glistening with health, and other fantasies.
>
>>I too am someone who has had difficulty with what others mean by
>>visualizing... and for a while said, "I can't do it, I think I lost that
>>facility when I began to enjoy mathematics around the age of six"...
>
>        Mathematics is unfortunately not my forte.  The skill is there for
the development, but the desire, the heart, and the passion for Mathematics
is not.
>
>>William Blake makes it pretty clear
>>somewhere that from his point of view, only those for whom the "inner
>>picture" is brighter and more sharply delineated than what is seen outside
>>are really *seeing*, really in contact with soul...  And I've somehow lost
>>the capacity *entirely*, probably because I got so good at abstract
>>thinking...
>
>        Abstract art is visual, and conceptual.  Either/or -> eithor
(eyesore?).
>
>>When the topic comes up, I now speak either of "painting in
>>water on glass" or say that the picture is there, it's as though it's
>>behind me, and I can sort of reach out with tentacles of intuition and
>>"read" it if need be...
>
>        Intuition, a visualization with the soul's eye, the psyche's eye.
Touching with thought the energies others ascribe to chance, to coincidence.
>
>>I *think* it's that my inner eye
>>is trained to the patterns of things...  to a sort of geometrical sense
>>that reads symmetries and rhymes between ideas... something that's easily
>>seen in much of my poetry, and even more clearly in my games...
>
>        And this will make the adventure of the *masked ball* a rare event
with the blending of energies of both kinds of dreamers.
>
>>> You just see the pictures before they become pictures.
>>
>>What a remark!  Terrific!
>
>        See?  Only see?  I can sense, feel, caress, catch relections of
pictures. Such is the job of our senses -- perception.  *I can perceive the
pictures* would perhaps be a better way to frame the imaginal concept.
>
>Robert de Cyberie
>
>

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Mon May 06 10:37:54 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Server Problems
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 16:37:54 -0600

Hello to all,

        I'm sending this note just to let all of you know of server problems
at this end.  If anyone has send me any off-list messages since Friday
evening, they have been trashed by my server.  could you please re-send
them?  I have downloaded the May archives to the present in order to get all
of the posts since our shutdown and I noticed my posts missing so I have
resent them.  I hope all remains well for the future.

Robert de Cyberie

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Mon May 06 16:46:47 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Dreams, nonverbal thinking,carnal love
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 23:46:47 -0500

Thanks, Anita, for the insights on dreams. I understand better now--and
actually it relieves some of the feelings of inadequacy of not accessing my
dreams so readily. I see now that what I do is normal for me, and may be
different for someone else.
                Susan

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Mon May 06 17:58:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: A Pattern Language
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 00:58:06 -0500

Dear Charles and Walter--Just ten years ago, I started the restoration of an
antique house (1870's stick style farmhouse). Through a colleague, I was
introduced to Alexander et al. _Timeless Way of Building_  and _A Pattern
Language_ and for the first time came to understand the draw of this particular
house for me. Even though the work on the house was never completed (until the
day after I had to leave it), it still held within it a sense of harmony and
balance. It often told me, when I would listen, just what I needed to know to
make repairs, to pick paint colors, to replace missing trim pieces. My daughter
still speaks of this house/farm as particularly hers--in her mind, because she
was born in the house, she and it are eternally connected with one another. We
felt the previous inhabitants as a part of the fabric of the wood, and plaster,
and brick, and stone, and spirit of the thouse--they were part of the pattern
of the house and the farm. My ex-husband was aghast when I refused to sell the
farmstead to several of the people who looked at it--these people sought to
disrupt the pattern of what was there. Some wanted to tear down the barns (some
parts of which were from the 1840s with beams several feet wide and the
cathedral effect of post-and-beam construction); others wanted to alter the
connection between the house and summer kitchen; others wanted to sell off land
to others who would build nearby. The pattern was more felt than directly seen,
but it was there if one was open to it. Leaving that house for a dismal little
apt. in Cincinnati saved my life by reducing a grueling commute, but pained my
soul. The only way I could let go was because 2 "caretakers" appeared who also
felt the patterns and would protect the farmstead which I had laboured so to
bring back from the brink of destruction by neglect.  This was no fancy
Victorian mansion, but a home built by a master carpenter whose love of the
land and love of family spoke eloquently.  So what does this have to do with
Psyber-space? Somehow I think we are here seeking together the patterns which
will build community--the combination of alcoves and arcades, the sites for
birth and connected play, places of dancing in the street and garden seats.
Looking up "Farmhouse kitchens" reminded me of why having you each join me at
my kitchen table (my personal metaphor for our interactions here) was so vital
a metaphor for me. Kitchens have always been my favorite room in a house and my
kitchen here in South Dakota has a lovely alcove at one end with windows on 3
sides (east, south, and west) which invites company and conversation. It is the
room by which all except the most formal of guests enter my house and contains
the table where we eat most of our meals, where my daughter does her homework
and art projects, where we play endless games of Parchesi, and where my laptop
sits when I do e-mail correspondence. The open shelves contain parts of me--my
grandmother's tiny wicker basket that she carried her lunches in as a teacher
in the remote Appalachian mountains in the 1910s, a wooden biscuit cutter, a
ceramic bowl dancing with jonquils, whimsical clay creatures (a mouse, a bunny,
a frog, a unicorn), a shortbread mold from a long-distant trip to Scotland, a
recipe box, an Art Nouveau soap dish, my grandfather's wicker fishing creel. My
daughter's watercolors decorate the refridgerator  and miscellaneous tins for
crackers, raisins, cocoa, sit about. A wooden bench (still! unpainted, alas)
and ladderback chairs welcome you each to take a seat, have a "cuppa," and dive
into some conversation. What other patterns guide our mental psyber-spaces that
we offer in building this community--what inner-nets guide our interactions
here? what an intriguing tool Walter and Charles have offered out to describing
the construction of this particular reality. Unfettered by the physical
constraints of typical archetecture, we can build archetypal-tecture in our
mental worlds, our mental communities, our separateTogether spaces.
                Susan

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Tue May 07 03:34:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Metaphor-movie or reality?
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 15:34:42 GMT

Hi  Wilbur

> Well, I decided that the devil was sufficiently under control to post
> again.. not that I'm quite as appreciative of the posts that I've seen as it
> appears that others are.

What is it that you would appreciate?  I know you do not think the
broad focus is useful, however we can dance around our favourite fire,
I expect without too much flack.  Or is it that there is something
happening in the dance you are in already that is not right?  Hurtful?
Not going in thr direction you want?


> I suggest that anyone that is attempting to come to grips with this reality
> check out "Childhood's End" by Arthur C. Clarke.

Thanks for the tip.

> On the other hand, there is a popular book called "Snow Crash" that
> discusses communcation in a Virtual Reality.  (It's quite entertaining
> also..)  On recurring theme is metaphorhically is the same as the "Tower of
> Babel",

I loved that book and have just finished his later one -- the Diamond
age, not as good IMO.  As you say entertaining, but with heaps of
perception avout the nature of VR and information, and its impact on
the world.  I got a new take on McDonalds and the like, he sees these
franchises as simply attachment to a ring binder, a folder of
information that creates a whole environment.  Programs.  It speaks of
the tyranny of that sort of use of info.


> We'll never complete the tower, and
> from what we've discovered, the reason that we'll never all speak the same
> language and have the same reality is that speaking a different language
> helps prevent disease from traveling from one group to another directly.

That is interesting.  Was that in the book?  If so I somehow missed
that, would even read it again!

> So
> it's a survival mechanism for our species..  But I've experienced that
> strong drive to be universally heard and understood, to be one with everyone
> around me, as well as the joy of solitude.

Is that what is happening here?  Do you (perhaps more mildly) have the
same drive here?  Do we need to maintain separate language groups here
to protect ourselves from disease?  Consciousness of opposition in
unity (and vice versa) is emerging here.  Of course for survival there
is also the marriage, cross fertilisation.  Identity and separateness
needs to be established first perhaps.

Not long after your post Stephen posted:


> The mating of
> opposites is a natural law; the processes of alchemy (which consist
> essentially in such matings) are, he says, as much part of Nature as the
> alternating mastery of sunshine and
> moonlight.

Judith wrote in praise of "balance".

My sense is that we are working something out in our dynamics.  Not
blurring or blending but individuating and then getting together.


?


> I'd like to ask how many people on this list have gone for 2 hour walk in
> the last week?  Month?  Year?


Important and a worry.  I do quite a lot, as those who read about the
300 k walk Kate & I did last summer know.  I go rock climbing too.
But this machine is not good for my physical body!  I feel it.

> How many have noticed the disconnection from
> those around them as they become accustomed to the patterns of living
> associated with the computer interaction and noticed with shock how
> interaction face to face becomes foreign and somehow more raw?  I have.

This is more of a worry for me.  I can drift into cyberspace too
easily.  I have to make an effort not to, whereas some people make an
effort to attend to their email!  The effort pays off though.  I have
had important times with Kate over the weekend and also with a good
friend.  The bathroom alterations have a way of drawing me out  ;).


> Perhaps the years that I spent walking in the woods in the Upper
> Penisula of Michigan without ever seeing another person, (a few bears, but
> not people) have given me a world where the sky and the earth come together
> without words..

Yes.

> What is the movie where everyone throws their Televisions out the window?
> I've given up TV, but I still have a Cathode Ray Tube in front of me.

I find the TV people-dead, the pc is a tool to link with people, not
machines or even words, people.


> So what Metaphor-movie is being expressed in this list?
>
> There's a popular song by Seal,

Thanks for that.  Still listening.


> which, believe me, when he singing it right
> in front of me, with my daughter at my side, 9 years old, at her first rock
> concert..  it's got a lot more impact that these soundless, lifeless, barren
> words on this computer screen.

I am reminded of that poem:


I think that I shall never see
a poem s beautiful as a tree.


Also the line of a song I recall:

Music is so much less than what you are . . .


As someone has already mentioned, the paradox is here in that we know
these things to be true, and yet we write and make music.  Perhaps
they are not in opposition.


May words
celebrate
life flow &
be music
for the dance
of life.


~~~

> Couldn't understand stand stand,
> I couldn't understand
> And you know I couldn't understand,
> I just couldn't understand
> Couldn't understand stand stand,
> I couldn't understand
> And you know I couldn't understand,
> I just couldn't understand
> Couldn't understand stand stand,
> I couldn't understand
> And you know I couldn't understand,
> I just...



> (Seal's Second album), and recommend it as a respite from Cyberspace.  It
> also makes a great backdrop to this list.  (I think I've said that about 3
> times so far..)


yes, I want to play it I'm my desktop, but am here on the Notebook at
work!  (no sound  :(


Walter

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Tue May 07 07:09:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: a pattern language
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 15:09:13 -0400

Susan,

Thank you!  These words are lovely.

<<Somehow I think we are here seeking together the patterns which will build
community--the combination of alcoves and arcades, the sites for birth and
connected play, places of dancing in the street and garden seats.>>

I have never walked these streets before,
but a quiet deja vu accompanies your words --
a sense of knowing, and of being known --
a scent of wildflowers,
riotous color and whimsical charm,
unicorn grace
and the music of carousels.
I have never walked these streets before,
but we do not meet as strangers, you and I.

<<What other patterns guide our mental psyber-spaces that we offer in
building this community--what inner-nets guide our interactions here?>>

One place in my world that shares the patterns of this place is the college I
attend twice a year in Vermont  -- an old dairy farm that retains a rustic
feel and welcomes me when I return.  There is a path through the trees from
the community center to the Manor House, bordered by a low wall of gray stone
that is interrupted by a narrow stone arch.  Beyond the arch is a tiny
garden, a cultivated labrinyth.  One dawn last June, I took my Walkman and my
music (Yanni, that morning) and walked the path, stood beneathe the arch, and
paced the steps of the labrinyth -- a walking meditation in the still clarity
of that New England summer.  When I walked back toward the community center,
I was joined on the path by another early riser -- David, an artist/writer, a
member of my first advisory group and one of the four of us who became fast
friends.  In the clearing in front of the community center, we met Jing, who
is a beautiful young Chinese woman -- the mother of a small daughter, who was
very homesick that residency (I first met her when she burst into Kilpatrick
dorm declaring "I need to talk" in no uncertain terms!  I listened.).  We
were early for breakfast, so Jing began the slow, powerful, elegant movements
of T'ai chi (she is an instructor).  David joined her in a dual dance of
silent grace -- poetry in motion.  Later, we had breakfast together, talking
about the diverse patterns of our lives, embracing sameness and difference
alike.

This has become part of my mental world -- a mental community -- a
separatetogether space I carry within.  A refuge for mind and spirit, a
transient community, a meeting of friends outside the borders of my everyday
life.  Patterns of sameness, and difference, that enhance the experience of
human connection.  Like here.

Thank you for this visit to your world, and for the reminder of a special
place in mine.

Marie

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Tue May 07 11:29:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Online communcation - reality or metaphore?
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 19:29:13 -0400

>> Well, I decided that the devil was sufficiently under control to post
>> again.. not that I'm quite as appreciative of the posts that I've seen as it
>> appears that others are.
>
>What is it that you would appreciate?  I know you do not think the
>broad focus is useful, however we can dance around our favourite fire,
>I expect without too much flack.  Or is it that there is something
>happening in the dance you are in already that is not right?  Hurtful?
>Not going in thr direction you want?
>

Walter, I appreciate you asking specifically what I'm concerned about..
there are numerous examples of the sorts of issues that I believe are
hindering the conversation about the Psychology of Listserv's.. and a lot of
other conversation as well.  Not to start any unwanted discussion, the
issues that people are dealing with on this list are of a personal nature,
and not exactly the sort of discussion that I believe constitutes the
"Psychology of Listserv" discussions.. there are a lot of fires, a lot of
different threads, some of which are quite engaging, but instead of dancing
around the fires, some people are content to jump over and dance in the
fires.. I don't have a problem with personal discussion, but on the other
hand, I've been quoted out of context and it seems that people are taking
messages in personal ways when they specifically include disclaimers to the
effect that they are not intended personally.

As you and several others have expressed, design patterns are quite
interesting,  and one of the current rages in programming is the idea of
design patterns.  I choose to call the process of identifying design
patterns as "catching circles" which include the "Ying and Yang", "Context
and Solution", or simply "Life Choices with consequences".  Those circles
are little more than the same soap bubbles that I reffered to earlier.  That
they aren't real life is quite clear to me, but many haven't touched them
just yet, so they don't know that they pop.

There are people struggling here to justify personal items rather than being
involved in group discussions, and I'm not going to take away from them.
Some of these personal struggles are so significant that I've been quoted
out of context and that messages that I've posted on the perceptions that
I've developed as a result of my experience with this medium are viewed as
fodder for all sorts of personal expressions of emotion, including guilt and
shame..

I'm not comfortable discussing topics that evoke these sorts of emotions in
a listserv when I'm not able to directly percieve the emotions and responses
of the people that I'm writing to.  Since I've been taken out of context on
more than one occasion, the level of trust that I have with this form of
communcation is quite low, and I don't have the alteriour motives of a lot
of the posters..  (Motives that I'm not going to describe, for the sake of
the participants..)

I'm willing to let other live with their deceptions, but that's not
something that I'm willing to do, and not very worthwhile in a direct, open
and honest discussion about the psychology of listserv's.  To be quite
honest, I've seen what the ulteriour (sp?) motives of others can do withing
the limited bandwidth of a listserv or forum, and I don't need to open
myself up for that level of exposure.  As a small example, in a single
"Inside Technology" forum, I've had my words printed in the New York Times
without proper credit, and had an individual calling up people describing me
as dangerous and someone that the women had to band together to handle,
perhaps even notify the authorities.  This particular individual managed to
send a private email to my girlfriend, (my girlfriend never identified
online that she and I were connected) with a request to help find me, since
I "dangerous" and the authorities needed to be made aware of me.  This
entire exchange was generated by my wondering publically in the list, after
an unwelcome "Support Anita Hill with money" message in a technology forum,
what some of the ulteriour motives of Anita Hill might have been (I didn't
post anything specific, just wondered what all of the motiviations might
have been) in the Clarence Thomas hearings.  My girlfriend had talked with
this individual before, and when my girlfriend didn't answer the message,
this particular individual phoned my girlfriend directly and restated what
was in the email message.  My girlfriend told the person that she was my
girlfriend and we lived together, and that she had been following the
discussion in the forum, and didn't have any problem with my posts, at which
this particular individual's response was "Oh" and she hung up.  So how many
people did this particular individual contact on the list?  How much was my
reputation impuned?

So if I express strong opinions here, what is to say that the same thing
won't happen again?  Then the point becomes, why bother?  In "The Art of
Worldly Wisdom", Baltasar Gracian, a 16th century Spanaird, cautions that
wise men don't have strong public opinions..  I think I can understand and
sympathized with his position.

>> On the other hand, there is a popular book called "Snow Crash" that
>> discusses communcation in a Virtual Reality.  (It's quite entertaining
>> also..)  On recurring theme is metaphorhically is the same as the "Tower of
>> Babel",
>
>I loved that book and have just finished his later one -- the Diamond
>age, not as good IMO.  As you say entertaining, but with heaps of
>perception avout the nature of VR and information, and its impact on
>the world.  I got a new take on McDonalds and the like, he sees these
>franchises as simply attachment to a ring binder, a folder of
>information that creates a whole environment.  Programs.  It speaks of
>the tyranny of that sort of use of info.

>
>
>> We'll never complete the tower, and
>> from what we've discovered, the reason that we'll never all speak the same
>> language and have the same reality is that speaking a different language
>> helps prevent disease from traveling from one group to another directly.
>
>That is interesting.  Was that in the book?  If so I somehow missed
>that, would even read it again!

I believe that's in Snow Crash..

>
>> So
>> it's a survival mechanism for our species..  But I've experienced that
>> strong drive to be universally heard and understood, to be one with everyone
>> around me, as well as the joy of solitude.
>
>Is that what is happening here?  Do you (perhaps more mildly) have the
>same drive here?  Do we need to maintain separate language groups here
>to protect ourselves from disease?  Consciousness of opposition in
>unity (and vice versa) is emerging here.  Of course for survival there
>is also the marriage, cross fertilisation.  Identity and separateness
>needs to be established first perhaps.

I've always found that to be the case..

>Not long after your post Stephen posted:
>
>> The mating of
>> opposites is a natural law; the processes of alchemy (which consist
>> essentially in such matings) are, he says, as much part of Nature as the
>> alternating mastery of sunshine and
>> moonlight.
>
>Judith wrote in praise of "balance".
>
>My sense is that we are working something out in our dynamics.  Not
>blurring or blending but individuating and then getting together.
>

I get that sense also..

>This is more of a worry for me.  I can drift into cyberspace too
>easily.  I have to make an effort not to, whereas some people make an
>effort to attend to their email!  The effort pays off though.  I have
>had important times with Kate over the weekend and also with a good
>friend.  The bathroom alterations have a way of drawing me out  ;).

I also have to make the effort..  specifically withdraw from the computer in
order to accomplish other tasks and tend to my family life..


>> What is the movie where everyone throws their Televisions out the window?
>> I've given up TV, but I still have a Cathode Ray Tube in front of me.
>

The name of the movie is "Network", my girlfriend new the title.

>I find the TV people-dead, the pc is a tool to link with people, not
>machines or even words, people.

But in a very limited/artificial way..

>As someone has already mentioned, the paradox is here in that we know
>these things to be true, and yet we write and make music.  Perhaps
>they are not in opposition.

I spent Sunday at MOMA and the Picasso Portrait exhibit, one of the quotes,
I believe from Picasso, that stuck in my head is "Art is the lie that
exposes the truth, or at least as much of it as we're allowed to know."  I
think that the same applies here, more or less.

Another thought that I believe is interesting was that all "controversial"
things about Picasso were suspiciously absent from the show, for example,
his significant Opium use.  I have to wonder how much of what he painted is
what he came to see as a result of being in the altered mind state created
by opium, and how much of the personal difficulties in his life were created
by his opium use.

The last thought that I'd like to express was that when the exhibit noted
that Picasso's work approached the surrealist style, was when he was enraged
by relationship that he was having with his wife, how the relationship was
dissolving.  I follow Dali quite a bit, and I imagine that he had a lot of
rage locked inside himself as a result of his childhood, and that rage was
harnessed in the creation of his surreal work.  I then realized that the
rage that I have locked up inside me is what probably drew me to Dali's
work, since I've the same rage locked up inside me.  Rage that I direct and
harness, but rage nonetheless..  I appears to me that the rage is a very
strong co-factor in strong visualization skills..  ie, without the rage,
there just isn't enough energy to push the mind to the point where the
design patterns are understood, so that a new metaphore is created..

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From judithb@sbc1.com Tue May 07 17:39:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Online communcation - reality or metaphore?
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 05:39:44 GMT

Wilbur,
your posting and revelations about your cyber experiences clears alot up for
me. I have continually sensed your rage under your postings re: real but
didn't want to commit projection :-) having your clarification about your
experiences has revealed the *reality* behind my sensing. Whenever someone is
expressing any opinion, I am assuming it derives from layers of experiences
that any of us can never know in a short period of time unless one begins
one's posting with the assumptions and value system and experiences and
triggers thru which the comments are made.   And then there one's view of
what *reality* is and what we are doing here on this planet.

I have a personal style which tends to be less expressive affectively-the
scotgerman dna most likely-Calvinism et al <g>, so often I am unable to
engage in the dialogue, would that I had a bit of Latin in me.

I remember my ex brother in law saying once long ago when asked why he wasn't
going to pursue his writing and he respnded that he didn't want to live all
day in the emotional intensity of it. He now walks the lands of Utah as an
archeologist with the bureau of land management and as he says "makes up"
stories about the pieces of flint that he finds.

For me in my paper making I am finding a balance with my technology and study
of the fringe scientists. In making paper I have to *meet* the pulp with my
deckle, feeling as I do as an agent for its manifestation, kindof like
midwifing the paper into existance. I can't control, nor do I seek to control
the process. I can add color and motion and play but in the end the paper has
a life of its own to express thru me. when I am making it I get into a
meditative experience-time dissolves, accelerates, slows, is manipulated
somehow. Often I stop and am amazed I have 60 sheets of paper and the clock
has only ticked 5 minutes. For me it is the first time I have given up
complete control. And for me it feels *real* and *surreal*. What I do know it
touches a place in me and from that place the paper and I come together in
creation.

I think my paper making experience is resonant to the love of language shared
by many here and the playing with words nd ideas and as Charles has done,
makingnew words to express a nuance or sense or feeling that is left hollow
by the inadequacy of given words. I have a sense that there is a pushing
beyond the envelop often going on, the urge to create, to bring into
existence the beauty and not so beautiful river of one's beingness, and here
that is through language.

Ultimately I am finding it is about creation for me and through my foray into
art I am living in the morphgentic fields of the artists and the school.
Their beingness is becoming accessible to me simply through the living within
their midst. I find I look at their work and *know* something that before I
came to paper making I could only understand in a limited way. My paper is
very different than other's. It is coming out of me. I am only at the
beginning of this exploration, but I am passionately in love, head over
heals, silly, totally joyful for the first time in my life-freed somehow,
grateful that in this later life of mine I listened to the whisper of a voice
somewhere in me that said *paper.*

The other side of rage? I don't know.

Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Wed May 08 14:57:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Online communcation - reality or metaphore?
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 21:57:21 -0500

Dear Wilbur--Thanks for your heartfelt posting. I've read it several times now
and put it away last night to think on it more before trying to formulate a
reply, from my admittedly limited perspective.
        I hear what you are saying about the discussion of the psychology of
the listserv not being what you had in mind. I'm not sure I understand how
though we can come to know about the psychology of a listserv that doesn't come
via discussions of a personal nature? How else to explore our own psychological
journeys than through relating and trying to interpret our own personal
experiences? Maybe I am missing something or missing your point, but to do
otherwise to me is to distance ourselves from the very phenomena which we want
to understand and reduce ourselves into the "Other" which is thus foreign,
outside, and available for "clinical" study. What to you does constitue the
proper ream of a "psychology of listserv discussion"? (I am really sincerely
asking this as I really don't understand and am open to trying to see what you
mean.)
        I get the sense of a double standard in some of what you say, too, and
so would like to offer my interpretation of what I think you are saying. If I
cite you out of context, please let me know where I have erred. It sounds as if
waht you are saying is that your experience with listservs/virtual
relationships is that you "can't perceive the emotions and responses of the
people I'm writing to" and that the link exists "in a very limited and
artificial way." Further, it seems as if what you are saying is that your
particular experience is the standard, the legitimate reading of virtual
relationships and that others who have experienced this differently, finding
what in their mind has been a rich connectedness, are experiencing a
"deception" and are not capable of *really* understanding the limitations of
the medium. --Is it not possible that both experiences and a whole host of
balances of real/not real (if those terms have any real meaning) are all
legitimate, varying on who we are and what we bring to our relationships and
who in particular we have contact with out there on the net? I see your concern
with people's ulterior motives and the concern at having less (perhaps) cues on
line to determine these motives. My experience in f2f interactions though has
been that many of these interactions are no better. I've seen what ulterior
motives do in face-to-face (or knife-to-back) interactions and have totally
missed cues that would've let me know before I got knifed what might be afoot
(some of this may be due to having space cadet tendencies, some to interacting
with very slick b*****ds). To me (and admittedly I don't have vast experience
with this, only about two years of mostly professional interactions and one
intense long-distance romance which has gone to hell), the major difference
seems to be that the conversation on-line isn't as ephemeral as that in f2f; it
can be kept, converted to the black and white of words on a page, and give a
record, evidence of what has transpired. To me, this means we have access to the
text of relationships (and anti-reltionships?) and their development which we
don't in f2f and thus have possible more cues/evidence to understand the
reality/ validity of what is being constructed.  If a few skum that have
betrayed you or others are examplars of the illegitimacy of online
relationships, then we have to toss out f2f as legitimate also. (And believe
me, if we took the few students who have left my classes outraged, telling
student after student, administrator, parent, etc. what an unreasonable,
demanding, inconsistent, mean person I am, as evidence of the majority of my
interactions/relationships with student, we would have a faulty picture of what
is going one. This seems to me to be parallel to what you are claiming. Is this
accurate or am I seriously misreading you?
        Judith noted that your discussion of rage helped her to understand
better the context you bring with you. It helps me build a broader context, but
I'm not sure it brings understanding. You argue that rage is a "strong
co-factor in strong visualization skills"--tha without the rage, perhaps there
is not "enough energy to push the mind to the point where the design patterns
are understood, so that a new metaphor is created." Perhaps this is so, but my
experience with rage is that it is inherently destructive and instead of giving
the energy to synthesis, to discover larger patterns, its energe focus on
separation--perhaps identifying parts which could make up a pattern, but
eluding the final integration into the whole. Adrienne Rich has said that "the
root of aggression is the failure of connection." Perhaps then, through rage,
design patterns or catching circles are indeed "soap bubbles" and not "real
life"--perhaps it is through letting go of rage that the "soap bubbles" take on
a corporeal reality. Within rage, maybe we get stuck in the yin or the yang
and can't find the whole, the yinYang, the solunarity of oppositions brought
out of opposition and into continnum. It seems that in steping outside of rage
that the metaphors which bring us to understanding to take on a reality and it
is no longer metaphor (ephemeral, noncorporeal, fake) and reality (concrete,
corporeal, Truth), but metaphorReality.
        Truly trying to understand ,
                        Susan

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Wed May 08 15:34:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: dragons/sunrunners/mental communities
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 22:34:36 -0500

Marie--such magic you spin in the telling of your community in Vermont. I could
feel myself there with you in the early morning hours. (Gosh, no wonder Robert
finds you interesting--so do I, which makes me wonder if the appeal of souls is
not truly gender related, but rather beyond that--and that issue too is perhaps
one which might be relevant to discuss as a part of the psychology of
listservs--the genderedness or lack there of of the discussion. More about that
later when I've had time to put some thoughts together on that--? a possible
encyclopedia topic, Charles?)
        You mentioned in your dragons and sunrunners post that there was a
connection with what you had read in two books by Melanie Rawn. This fascinates
me since your description of mind-sharing with dragons, going between, etc.
sounds like Anne McCafferey's Dragons of Pern series of books. I'd be curious
to know a bit more about Rawn's work. (Once my grades are turned in, I'll do
some footwork on this end too.) Are you familiar with McCaffery's works? She
won several fantasy awards for the dragon books and other books/stories as
well.
        Susan

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Thu May 09 00:35:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Playback
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:35:50 GMT

Hi  josh

>  Does anyone know about anybody doing Playback Theatre in London?

The only British psychodramatist i know is Marcia Karp (Carp?) ~ she'd
know about playback.  Perhaps just having a name will help your
search.

As it happens we did playback this week in the group i am running for
group workers.  Went well.  Kathryn who i run the group with, trained
with Johnathan Fox in NY (ten years ago) i will aske her if she knows
about London.

Walter

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Thu May 09 06:21:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: gender
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 14:21:25 -0400

Susan,

Hello, friend.  I find you interesting, too.

<<which makes me wonder if the appeal of souls is not truly gender related,
but rather beyond that--and that issue too is perhaps one which might be
relevant to discuss as a part of the psychology of listservs--the
genderedness or lack there of of the discussion.>>

I think there *is* an appeal, an attraction, of souls that transcends gender.
 I believe that most of what we experience as gender identity is a societal
construction, internalized and projected onto others (although there is, for
me, an underlying *femaleness* in my sense of self that has nothing to do
with what I have learned to perceive as *feminine*).  The designation of
others as *male* or *female* seems to be one of the first things we do in
trying to create a context from which to understand the words of another,
probably because it is such an important part of how we learn to relate to
others in the *real* world.  Even with a conscious effort to disregard
societal norms for masculine and feminine, I find myself falling back on
these shorthand ways of making sense of who a person is.  I recall a post
from Robert, apologizing to Tama for the assumption that he was female; I had
made the same assumption, and it astonished me to see how much my reaction
toward Tama's poetry shifted as a result of this challenge to my frame of
meaning.  Most of the time, assumption of gender is not an issue; our names
alone usually proclaim our sex, and often our words about ourselves and who
we are in the world.  It seems to me that the people on this listserv are
less polarized in terms of gender characteristics than the general population
(at least, most of the populations I have encountered out here in everyday
life) -- women seem to be confident of their intelligence, and their
knowledge (two areas that have traditionally been seen as the domaine of
men), and men are willing to self-disclose, convey emotions, and seek
connection (traditionally activities assigned to women).

I want to share part of something I wrote in response to Carol Gilligan's _In
a Different Voice_ (1986) : I think this is an important topic for discussion
here.

The stuff of both comedy and tragedy, differences between men and women
(often depicted as the "battle of the sexes") have intrigued writers and
other students of human nature for centuries.  In the musical _My Fair Lady_
the lament of men is given explicit voice in a song which asks: "Why can't a
woman ... be more like a man?"  Even Freud admitted that he didn't know what
women wanted!  Sadly, many women don't know what they want, either -- or
where they fit in the world that men have made.  Women have, for the most
part, been absent from philosophical and psychological theories -- until the
feminist movement began to challenge the entrenched patriarchal dominance
that has prevailed throughout the recorded history of Western civilization.

Gilligan addresses the issues of voice (the need to be seen and heard),
difference (which she views as an inherent fact of human existence, not a
problem needing a solution), and psychological development (which she
contends revolves around the sense of self as defined in terms of either
separation and autonomy or connection and nurturance).  According to
Gilligan:

     <<From the different dynamics of separation and attachment in their
gender identity formation through the divergence of identity and intimacy
that marks their experience in the adolescent years, male and female voices
typically speak of the importance of different truths, the former of the role
of separation as it defines and empowers the self, the latter of the ongoing
process of attachment that creates and sustains the human community.>>

This is the crux of the matter, says Gilligan, and the source of a cruel
paradox: while women tend to define their identity in terms of their ability
to nurture others (although the caretaker role -- necessary for the
patriarchal order to survive -- is usually taken for granted or denigrated by
men), maturity is implicitly defined as synonymous with personal autonomy
(rooted in achievement and individuation).  Therefore, a concern with
relationships is considered to be a feminine weakness rather than a human
strength.

I agree with Giligan's basic premises: that men and women often relate to the
world in different ways; that women have been treated as inferior beings by
the very men who relied on their support and caring; and that the world-view
of men has shaped our philosophy, psychology, religion, economics, politics,
and social structure.

However, I am left with a number of questions about the implications of her
research:  Are the differences between men and women innate, or the result of
socialization?  If there is a biological component, how can we learn to
respect our differences and create a psychology of equality that encompasses
the nature of both men and women?  If our differences come from our
conditioning, where do we begin to change it?  Do women *want* to change it?
 Do men?  Is it our goal to become the same -- homogenized, like slices of
packaged cheese -- and who will decide what ingrediants should be included in
this new-and-improved, all-purpose creature?  Is it possible to create a
society that accepts and values all conceivable permutations of personality
(whatever one's gender)?  If so, how do we define healthy development and
maturity?  Do we discard all that we have learned about human functioning, or
is it possible to integrate existing knowledge into a new paradigm of human
existence?  Who will be the architect of this undefined new reality?

Gilligan's work provided rich insight into my personal experience.  I felt
like a misfit all my life, unable to reconcile my "feminine" focus on
relationships and nurturance with my "masculine" drive to achieve and be
self-reliant.  I was unhappy in a traditional wife-and-mother role, and
nearly ruined my physical and emotional health pushing myself to succeed in a
male-dominated corporate environment.  I have learned that I must fulfull all
aspects of myself if I am to be satisfied with my life -- regardless of what
society expects of me .  My evolving sense of personal responsibility tells
me that I am the only one who can decide who I want to be and how I want to
live my life.  What kind of world would this be if everyone felt the same
freedom to be who they are without concern for living up to society's
expectations for what proper masculine and feminine ways of being and
behaving are?

Is there more freedom here, in this Inner-net world, to express all aspects
of who we are?  Or do we still get caught up in role expectations?

Fascinating topic, Susan!

Marie

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From MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM Thu May 09 06:21:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: fantasy
From: Marie Tondreau <MOONASYLUM@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 14:21:25 -0400

Susan,

<<Are you familiar with McCaffery's works?>>

I didn't realize it until I read this, but my post on dragons and sunrunners
blended images from McCaffery (Dragons of Pern) and Rawn.  I haven't read
either sets of books in years, and they fit together in my mind.  Rawn writes
of sunrunners; dragons are ritually hunted in the beginning of the series,
and only connect with humans near the end.  Pern is the home of dragons who
bond with humans from birth, and go *between* with them.  The titles by Rawn
that I quoted are of two trilogies, not two books -- if you enjoyed
McCaffery, you will certainly enjoy Rawn, although she creates an entirely
different world.  I particularly liked her exploration of the abuses of
personal power, and how it can distort one's experience of self and other.

I used to read a lot of speculative fiction (science fiction and fantasy),
and I'm sure I will again, when academic demands are not so heavy.  This kind
of reading can, and has been, an escape from the everyday world -- but I
think it has another value for me that relates to my experience here, in this
alternate reality.

It is very difficult to escape the perceptual filters we acquire as we grow
up.  This world was here when I was born, and is the only one I have
experienced.  How do we become aware of all the subtle ways that we adopt the
perspective and the norms of the culture around us?  Modern physics have
shaken our view of reality itself; although we seem to see -- and touch --
solid objects with an immutable form, most of what we perceive is composed of
space and patterns of energy.  Yet I cannot easily move beyond the apparent
evidence of my senses, and my embedded perceptual frameworks, to see the
world as fluid and everchanging.  Speculative fiction allows me to suspend my
usual ways of making meaning, and enter alternate realities, become immersed
in other possible ways of being and of relating.  This often produces a shift
in my perspective that I carry back to the *real* world.

Here, too, many of our usual cues are absent, highlighting what remains and
providing an opportunity to experience a different point of view.  How do we
experience our *self* without the context of the body?  How do we experience
the *self* of others?  What is *reality* if it cannot be perceived with all
the senses?  What new learning can we expect when we step out of linear time?
 How relevant is insight obtained in this way to everyday life?

I don't have answers to these questions, but I am enjoying the process of
finding out!

Marie

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu May 09 09:22:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: gender
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 21:22:55 GMT

Great stuff, Marie and Susan.
I spent huge amounts of time delving into the feminist psychologists et al
from which Giligan's work emerged and my mentor at the time did a study
taking the feminine matrix and finding differenciation which I have used in
my work.
Anyway there is much to ponder in your post for later when I snuggle in my
bed with my lap top ala Churchill however, one thing popped out you said
< If there is a biological component, how can we learn to
respect our differences and create a psychology of equality that encompasses
the nature of both men and women? >
In research I can't cite exactly at the moment on the meaning perspectives of
words ala gender, the issue of equality is interesting. Equality to American
males according to a piece of reserach I ran into has tended to mean *same*
which is not what equality tends to mean to American women. When interviewing
men in corporations about hiring women to do same work, the revelation of
perception was discovered. It was found that the biological difference of men
and women interfered with the maen's ability to get to equality.It was found
that women who were wearing the blue suit uniform with the little paisley tie
at their neck, was disquieting to the men because they perceived the woman
and trying to be *equal* which to them mean same as in dressing the same.
Seems an issue of holding differenceequality.

Thanks for your post. Takes me back to the thrilling experience of driving to
Chicago every week from Cleveland OH to get my masters. The most fun of my
whole life, sitting on the floor of the library stacks surrounded by amazing
studies of gender which were surfacing-I truly was informed-Did research on
the perception of *team* from a gender perspective and it was amazing. Used
metaphor to evoke the perception. A team is like a...men answered almost to a
man things like it's like a train, it's like an orchestra, all images of a
leader and followers with specific parts to pay. Women said it's like a
circle, it's like being in relationship, it's like working together on a
quilt...not the same perception, which helped a couple of my company clients
understand why their self-directed teams weren't working. I of course wasn't
looking at whether it was biological or cultural.

BTW A less academic book is Male and Female Reality by Joe Tanenbaum which
for years I gave everyone I saw.

off to paper making and then back to ponder your post. Should be lots of
fun:-)
Judith

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu May 09 09:29:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: gender
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 21:29:19 GMT

Marie you ask
<
(whatever one's gender)?  If so, how do we define healthy development and
maturity>
In the adult development theory literature it has been found that over time
women while beginning in relationship for the reasons Gilligan cites and men
in a process of separation, over the adult development cycle there is a point
where they each begin to move toward the other end of the continuum, the
males moving into relationshp as evidenced with grandfathers and
grandchildren relationships and women moving into individuation in the later
years.

Judith

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                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
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                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu May 09 16:43:04 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: . . . ]
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 04:43:04 GMT

<Judith and all


> feeling as I do as an agent for its manifestation, kindof like
> midwifing the paper into existance. I can't control, nor do I seek to
control
> the process.

I have mercilessly taken these words from your post Judith, with a
sweep of excitement at the synchronicity.  I was about to write them!>
ah yes, Walter, the expanded opportunity for synchronicity here on the
net...keeps me playing.


<I have been feeling not so much like a midwife but a mother.  I labour
and give birth to various projects, my babies.  I spoke with Stuart,
my friend (also an occasional reader here)  about this, and he said:
you give birth to things.  We contemplated the difference between
making things happen and birthing them.  The phrase canit & not
seeking to control is what came to mind.>

Interesting this birthing idea. I chose to adopt and not physically give
birth so I never could fathom the experience of what birthing meant. Then 2
years ago a photographer friend of mine asked me to be his patron and fund
his coming out in the art world as a photographer. During the next 4 months,
we worked together, he providing the direction and doing. I got to play int
he dark room, I conceived of the format for his exhibition, and he acted. It
was a time of great creativity, great fear n his part, and a sense of
something I had never known. I felt as if I was holding space for his
creation to come into existance, providing the nurturance, the food if you
will for the birthing of his creativity. It was born and I truly knew what it
meant to give birth...it is a holding of sacred space, of protection during
the fragile moments of conception, taking care not to miscarry, to be mindful
of the overall while he was doing the details... it was his creativity being
birthed though it couldn't have been conceived nor born without me.

It strikes me that motherhood is much different than the period of gestation
and growth heading toward the moment of birth. There is a distinct difference
in the feeling for me at least. The process of holding space felt organic,
not solid as a son, it had a life of its own somehow, an impetus to exist tho
there were many times when it could miscarry and even be stillborn. It came
out whole and healthy, and I found myself feeling a let down. And the insuing
2 years of *raising* the photographer <g> has been like raising an unruly
child. The holding space part I loved. The mothering if you will I find
enervating and generally lacking...but then of course the anticipation is now
reality;-) I keep remembering my mother saying *the most important thing in
life is a sense of humor.*

Motherhood does have an element of holding space for me, however, I put my
son in Montessori at 2 and a half and kept him there until 8th grade so I had
a very different mothering experience than all of my friends.

<
Judith, when you are making paper, even though you let go, you do not
just let the soup spill all over the floor!>
well, there is a lot of water all over the place to be sure. Yes, Walter,
there is a form to the art through which the content called paper emerges.
And the form in this case is a vat of paper pulp, 90% water, into which I dip
my deckle, do the paper shake and then cooch it onto a piece of felt and
press the water out. So there is a process, with certain tolerances, and
great room to play within the given process. I can in fact let go *because*
of the form, the form is the structure, and the pulp and I are in agreement
as to that structure. When I engage in paper making, I learn its boundaries,
its rules if you will, and once I know the rules and mastered the rudiments
of the technique I can make a piece of paper. If I choose,I may *break* the
rules and I may push the limits with techniques I may try, sometimes the pulp
will cooperate and sometimes not. And sometimes there *is* soup or in this
case water all over the floor. Yet as is the case in art sometimes the
mistake is the creation.
<  There is such a balance
required.  I would love to see a Pattern language piece on Letting go
and holding on to power and control.  (perhaps it is tied in with the
gender discussion!)>
There is a letting go within the control and in this case I'll define control
as technique (not a political connotation of controlling, or control over). I
do need to exercise a *form*, which controls the process of paper making.
However, in your relating of the commune experience, I have advantage with my
pulp. It's psychologically sound:-). The pulp knows what it is and what it
wants to be and needs my engagement in order to become and I need it to
experience creation. It is a marriage born of cooperation with a great amount
of tolerance inherent in the process in which to become. I wouldn't want to
try it with a group :-)


<Some of the projects I have initiated, including a commune and a
school in Christchurch there was something lacking in the area of
discipline and focus.  I initiated but did not lead.  Soup on the
floor!  I am not happy with the outcome of those projects, though I
think (and hope) the abusive excesses that emerged in Centrepoint were
also not present.>
Though I have never experienced commune like projects, I would conjecture
that a lot of learning was to be had which may have been the point.

~

<I am have an emerging sense of how all this relates to Psybernet, more
of that in posts to come.



Walter>

will be interesting given your experience.
Happy synchronicity
Judith


--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Thu May 09 16:59:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: How to *meet* the pulp with the deckle [Was: Online
              communcation . . . ]
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 00:59:38 -0400

Judith:
>> feeling as I do as an agent for its manifestation, kindof like
>> midwifing the paper into existance. I can't control, nor do I seek to
>control >> the process.

rather..... Surrender to Control....not seek it.

Walter:
>Judith, when you are making paper, even though you let go, you do not
>just let the soup spill all over the floor!  There is such a balance
>required.  I would love to see a Pattern language piece on Letting go
>and holding on to power and control.  (perhaps it is tied in with the
>gender discussion!)



There is a thing I have come to know....        which would probably have me tarred
and feathered by the feminists....but.... I believe that women are torn by
two seemingly conflicting desires:
the desire to dominate, to be in control...and the desire to be Taken, to be
over-come, over-powered, possessed,  so to speak.

also I believe that men are torn by similar conflicting desires:  the desire
to surrender, to submit, to let go.....and the desire to conquer, to have, to
take, to possess.

I am not speaking of specifically sexual things herein.

I believe much of our struggles in life with that conflict lead us to much
confusion about when to surrender and when to take control....it is a
delicate balance....one not easily achieved.

We seek in exploration to satisfy those conflicting needs...to appease the
beast, so to speak.

Woman have an advantage...in the process of childbirth....to experience...in
one inextricable whirl the pull and push of those desires:  the body taken
over by the inevitable birth...the mind struggling to let the body do what it
knows how to do and yet rise above the pain....and it is only when
surrendering to body that mind can be in synch with the process and the life
release.

Before we can surrender we must know the intent, our intent.  Our control
must not be in the Process....we know intuitively How to do all that needs
doing....our control must be in our intent.  When our Intent is
purposeful...only then will the universe open to our bidding and allow our
work to flow.  When we trust our clear intent and surrender it to the
universe...then our path is made clear and the Doing become only joyfulness
and deep, beautiful Meaning.

The gender issue is possibly....for a woman:  control-submit; for a man:
 submit-control....only then can the marriage of the magical masculine and
the magical feminine take place and the individual become whole, and
tantric....it is ultimately not the work we Do that manifests our life's
intent...rather, it is the work we Are.

Is'e

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From judithb@sbc1.com Thu May 09 23:22:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: communcation . . . ]
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 11:22:31 GMT

Is'e,
<
There is a thing I have come to know....        which would probably have me
tarred
and feathered by the feminists....but.... I believe that women are torn by
two seemingly conflicting desires:
the desire to dominate, to be in control...and the desire to be Taken, to be
over-come, over-powered, possessed,  so to speak.

also I believe that men are torn by similar conflicting desires:  the desire
to surrender, to submit, to let go.....and the desire to conquer, to have, to
take, to possess.

I am not speaking of specifically sexual things herein.

I believe much of our struggles in life with that conflict lead us to much
confusion about when to surrender and when to take control....it is a
delicate balance....one not easily achieved.

We seek in exploration to satisfy those conflicting needs...to appease the
beast, so to speak.>

Absolutely from my experience I agree. Isn't this another way of describing
the balance of the masculinefeminine yinyang within each of us. Surely the
Jungians, I'm not knowledgable here BTW,have a framing of this *struggle.*
The degree of elegance one is able to achieve in acting the delicate balance,
the receptiveactive, is something to which I have long aspired, but then that
is my aesthetic. Mostly I observe my comfortability with the receptive in me
here in my later life, releaved <g>to have exhausted my achieveractor who
loved my business life with the *boys*, briefcase in hand. By way of personal
background I was raised the oldest son in a family of two girls, so my
prefered locus of living was from my masculine, never really understanding
what feminine meant, and not having giving physical birth as a referant.
However very premeditatively as I am wont to do I made the decision on my 52
birthday to birth myself as a female to see what this meant and spent
particularly the entire year exploring receptivity and holding space. I must
admit it was a terror for a few weeks, which I imagine Jungians here will nod
about my psychological maturation, but once I got the hang of it it reminded
me of the line in the song *how ya gonna keep them down on the farm after
they've seen Paree." It took a conscious intent in almost every moment to
hold the locus of receptivity and observe my partipcation from the receptive.
The discoveries were astonishing for me, as the feminine aspect of me
explored and tested what feminine *felt* like. The really fascinating part
for me was that I was exploring this *me* at precisely the time of
menopause...maybe a rising of a natural part of the process.
I remember one blinding moment watching a story dance of creation that I
*knew* what the feminine was. The very avant guard visualmusical expression
of the female experience from the isness before form into life and experience
permeated my mind boundaries and from that breathing space created my
feminine began to emerge.


<
The gender issue is possibly....for a woman:  control-submit; for a man:
 submit-control....only then can the marriage of the magical masculine and
the magical feminine take place and the individual become whole, and
tantric....it is ultimately not the work we Do that manifests our life's
intent...rather, it is the work we Are.>

I must admit though the words *control-submit* for me ring masculine, plus
they are hugely loaded forme, evoking static which then leads down fuzzypaths
and imo exacerbates the ability for clear communication. For me receptivity
is the word I prefer and action the other.. Within both *words* in the moment
intention is held.

Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri May 10 00:58:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: How to *meet* the pulp with the deckle  [Was: Online communcation
              . . . ]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 12:58:13 GMT

Judith and all


> feeling as I do as an agent for its manifestation, kindof like
> midwifing the paper into existance. I can't control, nor do I seek to control
> the process.

I have mercilessly taken these words from your post Judith, with a
sweep of excitement at the synchronicity.  I was about to write them!


I have been feeling not so much like a midwife but a mother.  I labour
and give birth to various projects, my babies.  I spoke with Stuart,
my friend (also an occasional reader here)  about this, and he said:
you give birth to things.  We contemplated the difference between
making things happen and birthing them.  The phrase cant & not
seeking to control is what came to mind.

I have a lot of babies.  Some are young, some are older, one is in
trouble, some are very demanding, and I am hoping like the
contraception does not fail!

Psybernet is of course one of the infants.  The whole project I mean,
not only this list.  I am thinking of us all as adults here with a
fledgling organisation.

I have a sense of wanting to let go, as in Kahil Gibran's "your
children are not your children"  from The Prophet.  (wonderful and if
anyone does would like to see it I will post the whole piece).  I also
feel the protectiveness of the parent, to want to make the environment
right so that there is no violation or corruption of the blossoming.


~

With the talk of community here a story came to mind (told to me about
3rd hand five years ago, please take none of it as factually accurate,
though all the names are real) about Centrepoint, an intentional
community, commune in Auckland New Zealand.  The community was born
out of an encounter group in the 70s.  In the hight of connection
after the group the participants discussed forming a commune.  There
was much planning and enthusiasm, and then the encounter group leader
was asked if he would be part of the community.

"You are forgetting one thing" he said, "the development here is a
result of the encounter group, and that involved me as a leader, and
now you are proposing a community that does not recognise this."

In the debate that followed the group split.  The ones that formed the
community required that members recognise Bert as their spiritual
leader.

The community flourished and grew to having several hundred members,
ran workshops etc, enterprises.  It was sexually very liberal and
sexual activity was in the open.  Some spiritual tasks set by Bert
included lots of sexual contact.  It was a controversial place, public
opposition, yet the advocates were able to cite stories of healing and
wellbeing.

In the 1990s there are court cases being initiated by the children who
lived in the community in the 70s and 80s for sexual abuse.  Bert last
I heard was in goal for giving ecstasy to teen-agers without their
knowledge.

The community still exists and I do not know how it fares.


~

The moment of interest to me is the attitude Bert and the group had to
his role.  I think there was something right about the acknowledgment
Bert sought and was accorded and something terribly wrong as well.  I
find this difficult to tease out.

Judith, when you are making paper, even though you let go, you do not
just let the soup spill all over the floor!  There is such a balance
required.  I would love to see a Pattern language piece on Letting go
and holding on to power and control.  (perhaps it is tied in with the
gender discussion!)

Some of the projects I have initiated, including a commune and a
school in Christchurch there was something lacking in the area of
discipline and focus.  I initiated but did not lead.  Soup on the
floor!  I am not happy with the outcome of those projects, though I
think (and hope) the abusive excesses that emerged in Centrepoint were
also not present.


~

I am have an emerging sense of how all this relates to Psybernet, more
of that in posts to come.



Walter

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From anitak@MEGABAUD.FI Fri May 10 01:27:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: web browser and  aplogies
From: Anita Konkka <anitak@MEGABAUD.FI>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:27:58 +0300

To all whom I haven't replied,
To Charles who asked about a web browser,

    Thanks for giving me so hearty  welcome to Psyberbia. Excuse for not
replying  earlier,  but I have had a lot of problems  with Windows95. I
installed it a week ago,  but something  went wrong,  it is falling
(overturning?). For two days I didn't got emails. To crown to the lot,
yesterday something in the server system fell over. Now it should be in
running order.  At least I try to send this message.

Charles, I have Netscape 2.01 browser,  but either it or Trumpet or Win95 is
unstable, still. I'm  so awkward in the computer skills. I have seen your
Water-bird, it is a beauty. But I'm afraid, I'm not a good player. I
understand poemes and dreams better than games. Such is my present
situation, that I have a hard job to get  done two texts   by next
Wendesnay, it is  a deadline day. However, I hope that I would have after
Wednesday a possibility to jump within the dream-game.

Anita

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Fri May 10 09:50:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: midwifery
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:50:10 -0500

Dear all--Just a quick note (as I am buried in final exams/projects). I found
an interesting terminology difference between the description here (in the US)
of what obstetricians do ("deliver") and what midwives do ("catch"). What a
world of difference in those terms! More after grades are in.
                Susan

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat May 11 08:50:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: communcation . . . ]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 20:50:42 GMT

Judith , Is'e,


> I must admit though the words *control-submit* for me ring masculine, plus
> they are hugely loaded forme, evoking static which then leads down fuzzypaths
> and imo exacerbates the ability for clear communication. For me receptivity
> is the word I prefer and action the other.. Within both *words* in the moment
> intention is held.

I am relating this discussion still to my relationship with my work as a
psychotherapist and as a group therapist, and to the way of working with
Psybernet.  Definitely receptivity and action are appealing and both have an OK
ring that submit and control do not.  What is it about the latter pair that
makes them masculine and at the same time unattractive?

We certainly are on a solunary theme here.  We seem to look at this dialectical
stuff no matter where we start!  Is there something wishing to be born out of
this intercourse?

I have a sense that the active, delineating, task oriented and doing aspects
while they are not absent are . . . behind . . . to the fore is the more
freeflowing and process oriented aspects.  I suspect this is what drives Wilbur
to despair.  Things transform into their opposites however.  Also the communal
aspects will flourish all the more for us having tasks.

One thing that we are "doing" even though  it is a "being" orientated thing is
the Dream Event.  How all that works and the implications for Psybernet and the
psychology of listservs is major.


Walter

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From AThomas561@AOL.COM Sun May 12 02:01:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Encyclopedia was Re: e-mail comm expressivity
From: Alyss Thomas <AThomas561@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 10:01:15 -0400

Walter, my 'joke' some days ago you didn't understand:  Lacan-Cluseau.  This
is a made-up person. Lacan the heavy-going but brilliant French
psychoanalyst. Cluseau one of many French detectives.  Both searching for
clues/cues - inner/outer.  Both of them were able to read and understand
human desires, needs, wants, how they thus behave.  In Cyber space we have to
learn new ways to read clues from the screen;  I am sure when you are more
experienced you get better at picking up the clues about different people;
  but I am still finding it hard to imagine the other people here - I still
want to know what they look like, and what their voices sound like.  Yet I
don't feel this when I'm reading a book by an author I've never seen or met.
 I'm still searching to find ways to establish connectivity on the net.I
think that connectivity is one of our most fundamental drives: only connect.
 This is why the net came into being, like the Net of Indra, in which each of
us is a multi-faceted jewel suspended in the great net oftime/space, each
reflecting different facets of other jewels.   Alyss.

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From moonasylum@QED.NET Sun May 12 06:28:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: connectivity
From: Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 14:28:26 -0400

Dear Group -- I am having a little trouble with a new provider, and my first
try was rejected (I first typed 'rejecting' -- Freudian slip?), so I am
forwarding this message.  Technology!


>Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:22:01
>To: Psyber-L@home.ease.lsoft.com
>From: Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@qed.net>
>Subject: connectivity
>
>Alyss,
>
>It thrilled me to read your words this morning, to find an uncanny
synchronicity in the separate flow of our lives and our thoughts.  You wrote:
>
><<This is why the net came into being, like the Net of Indra, in which each
of us is a multi-faceted jewel suspended in the great net oftime/space, each
reflecting different facets of other jewels.>>
>
>Earlier this morning, I was browsing through some of the journals in which
I keep words of others that have moved me, and I read this, and thought of
the net:
>
><<In the heaven of Indra, there is said to be a network of pearls, so
arranged that if you look at one you see all the others reflected in it.  In
the same way each object in the world is not merely itself but involves
every other object, and in fact *is* every other object.>>
>
>                  _The Flower Garland Sutra_
>
>Synchronicities such as this are part of what helps me feel connected in
this place.  You also wrote:  <<I'm still searching to find ways to
establish connectivity on the net.>>  Your words have found a way to connect
with me -- I don't know what you look like, and I have never heard the sound
of your voice, but I think I begin to get a sense of your being from what
you've shared here.
>
>On 96-04-21:  <<A sense of loss seems to be built into some of our most
precious attachments ....  I've been having a pretty 'interesting' midlife
crisis sort of thing, just emerging from a long period of depression and
immersion in my own interior life - so coming out into the interconnected
world feels especially important right now.>>
>
>Last year was a time for me like that, a time of emergence from a long
period of depression and immersion in the dark places of my own interior
life -- a time of emergence mingled with loss: the death of a close friend
in July, the end of a career in December (which was accompanied by the loss
of connections with people I worked/laughed/raged beside for years -- the
loss of a world that went on without me).  I could have used this place
then, to share my thoughts and feelings, and be less alone.
>
>I noted also the similarity of some of our interests:
humanistic-integrative psychotherapy, literature, transformative metaphor,
shamanism.  I was sorry when you seemed to disappear, and glad to see your
name in my email again later.
>
>On 96-05-03:  <<My situation at the moment is i'm still new to psyberspace
and hopeful that my contacts here can be meaningful without becoming
addictive; something about bringing more meaning, focus and
interconnectedness to life in my workroom... to which self doubt and
feelings of lostness and isolation are frequent visitors.>>
>
>I, too, am new to psyberspace (since February) and hope to maintain a
balance between this world and the one in which I sit and type to invisible
people.  I hear again from you the theme of loneliness, of loss, and the
search for meaning, for connection.  I know you a little better.
>
>On 96-05-03:  <<Your words on soulful interconnectedness, Susan, make me
think of Rilke's poem, You Who Never Arrived>>
>
>I love that poem!  And Susan was echoing my words, in writing about soulful
interconnectedness (entanglements of soul).  And I have several times shared
Rilke's words here. Connections -- links.
>
>One of the things that helped me feel connected here was the use of my
name, the acknowledgement of my words in the words of another, the little
embedded messages that spoke directly to me (Dolores/Laurel, Mila, Robert,
Walter, Judith, Susan -- among others).  My name stands for me here -- is
the author of my words, my self, my life -- and I feel *seen* and *heard*
and *met* when I am spoken to in this way.  I feel that I am encountering
*people*, not just words and ideas.
>
>Robert and I have spoken here of our off-line dialogue; we tried to convey
how we obtained a sense of the person behind the words, and he invited the
group (for both of us) to <<visit>> our words, to explore the levels of
communication that are not obvious in the overt meaning of what is said.
Susan has spoken of the need to provide for each other a context from which
to understand each other's experience.  We come here to understand the
psychology of a listserv, as well as to reveal it, and this is what I am
trying to do by examining my own responses and grounding my words in the
context of my own experience.
>
>I want to ask the rest of the group: What aspects of this written world of
communication help you to feel connected?  Alyss -- how can we help you feel
more connected here?
>
>Alone today -- but not lonely,
>
>Marie
>
>

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From judithb@sbc1.com Sun May 12 11:24:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: communcation . . . ]
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 23:24:43 GMT

Walter, Is'e, and all
<
> I must admit though the words *control-submit* for me ring masculine, plus
> they are hugely loaded forme, evoking static which then leads down
fuzzypaths
> and imo exacerbates the ability for clear communication. For me receptivity
> is the word I prefer and action the other.. Within both *words* in the
moment
> intention is held.

I am relating this discussion still to my relationship with my work as a
psychotherapist and as a group therapist, and to the way of working with
Psybernet.>

I need to come clean :-) with my less than positive experiences with the
profession leading me to take a completely other route in my healing after a
universal intervention in 1960 when the head of Georgetown medical Clinic
pushed a bottle of pills at me literally and said that I could take the pills
for the rest of my life or I could figure it out for myself which I set about
doing and in fact accomplished. Anyway in my later years what came out on the
P tests from the 50's which tended to direct me to somebody's office for a
*talk* was that I am a sensative in the words of the healing world which
means I take in other energy and *read* it. When I was younger this was
confusing me since I thought it was all *me* and so did the P tests BTW which
led to all sorts of distortions about my psyche. None of which were true once
I figured out how to tell the difference in my body between *me* and the
other people in a room. In my healing work I describe what I do like dialasis
where I take in someone's energy and run it thru my body and clean it out and
give it back. Mostly I hold space for the other person to resonate to my
energy field. I don't name it exept to call it process and it is not focused
in one body but all the physical, spiritual, mental and emotional.
Anyway I subscribe to Einstein's thought that you can't solve a problem in
the system in which it was created, so if the problem is psychological, using
psychology can certainly inform but the shift has to come from somewhere else
within the person which I surmise is what you who do *deep psychotherapy* do.
Anyway for me the word which is used to frame an issue, needs to be carefully
selected because it resonates and collects ideations. So to use a less loaded
word to explore an issue defuses and puts the focus on the issue not the
stuff which gets magnetized by the word. Just my way and the way in which I
work with myself as well as those who come to me.
I just think to frame the masculine with the word control is a trigger not
doing justice to either gender but I have experienced females who think
control is *bad* so they reject the idea of control and toss out males as
well when control is a valid concept, what may not be is control over.


< Definitely receptivity and action are appealing and both have an OK
ring that submit and control do not.>
I wasn't trying to use words which were *appealing* or *not appealing.* I was
pointing out that from my perspective using loaded words like control and
submit in relation to feminine and masculine takes us off point in my
opinion. The problem with our words are that they have multiple definitions
which mean they resonate at different frequencies evoking responses from
people depending on which meaning one resonates to.
<  What is it about the latter pair that
makes them masculine and at the same time unattractive?>
Not unattractive, however, in the world of the patriarchy which is masculine
and which is about control, politically, sexually, societally from a feminist
perspective, to me not easy words to use. It isn't the words themselves but
how I may have experienced them in my life. Because I was in the business
world in management before women's lib in the us, I never experience my work
environment as being controlled by men. Now admittedly I grew up with mostly
boys and related more to footballs than dolls, never having one, I knew how
to *play.* Women who came behind me in my work world had huge issues moving
from being the office wife to managing. And the word control to them was bad
and it was being exercised by the males ergo...a small leap in logic and guys
are the enemy who are controlling and keeping the women below the glass
ceiling in the 70's.
I think it's how we each connect the dots. So for me the word *submit* tends
to conjure up ideas of some power being exerted over me and me having to
*submit* to the power-the *war* metaphor lurking, as in surrender to my enemy
who has just defeated me. Reminds me of the wrestling matches as a child and
getting the other guy to *cry uncle.*Different to me than me being receptive
in the moment to my experience and having a choice to open and take in or
choosing not to. Just the resonance in the word to my circle of experience
seems to speak to the war metaphore which is embedded in the american
language.


Fun to play with Walter.
Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ Sun May 12 13:50:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Tama Lives...
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 13:50:22 +1200

  I'm not really very a float in the process of Cyber-L these days.although
I never was much of a big contender in the whole philosophical discussion
realm.I had more interest in talking about my life onto the screen and
makeing links and openess with members of the group.My life is now very
full on.I am very involved in theatre,  which I enjoy,  although is does
swallow a lot of time & commitment-to the detriment of my university
carrer.Or though thsi is better than the boredom I had last year.I am
meeting a lot of lovely people and are enjoying their company.
  I still have a soft spot for Cyber-L,  it has changed so much in the last
2 months, so much activity and discussion,  I can not keep up with it,  I
find my self browseing snipets of messages like all the books I shelve in
the uni library.Some I find exciting refreshing others over my head or not
of interest.There is something happening all right,  metormophising as fast
as some ones tries to pin it down.I am going through a lot of questioning
of my life and such.the death of my grandmother made me look at life in a
different way.Idelistically I realised I had better do what I really want &
get left with no self doubt before I die.I also was in a play recently on
the theme of amnest int in Sth America & got to play a man in the
confinement of a small box & immersed my self int that characters
emotions.I tell you it was Hell, there again is that be happy you don't all
ways realise how lucky you are,  although at times you are blind to that.
   I am going to approcah a woman to whom I'm very interested in, I feel
there is some chemistry there, so I'll ask her out,  hopefully I'll get to
know her and I can se a more productive realationship than the funny one I
had with Kate.
  Well I better get going as I now have to go to rehersal for the play
Waiora-a play on the theme of water.Anyway hello to everyone...

P.s Walter I never got round to the dream group if it isin't to late let me
enroll?
I lost the message with instructions!!


                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sun May 12 14:13:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: t
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 02:13:50 GMT

t

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From moonasylum@QED.NET Sun May 12 17:37:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: leadership
From: Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 01:37:51 -0400

Walter,

I have been thinking about the questions you raise about power and
leadership, and about the connection of these issues with gender.

You wrote:

<<Definitely receptivity and action are appealing and both have an OK ring
that submit and control do not.  What is it about the latter pair that makes
them masculine and at the same time unattractive?>>

Receptivity and action are softer (more *feminine*) words, and do not hold
the connotation of fear, the potential for abuse of power, and the
associations with male dominance that often underlie submit and control.
There can be an easy, reciprocal flow between receptivity and action -- an
awareness of shifting moods and needs -- to receive and hold at times and
then at other times to lead in the dance.

<<I am relating this discussion still to my relationship with my work as a
psychotherapist and as a group therapist, and to my way of working with
Psybernet.>>

I have been reading Hermann Hesse's _Magister Ludi_ for the Dream Event, and
I was struck by this passage on page 142:

   <<"If the high Authority appoints you to an office, know this: that every
step upward on the ladder of offices is not a step into freedom but into
bondage.  The higher the office, the tighter the bondage.  The greater the
power of the office, the stricter the service....">>

This reminded me of a book called _Reflections on Leadership_, on the
influence of Robert Greenleaf's ideas on servant-leadership.  Greenleaf had
read Hesse's _Journey to the East_ -- a story of a spiritual quest in which
the central character, Leo, the group's servant and sustaining spirit, was
years later revealed to be the leader of the spiritual order.  Greenleaf
believed that the message of this story was that great leaders must first
serve others, and that true leadership is exemplified by a desire to help
others.

The editor of the book (Larry Spears) discusses what he considers to be
critical characteristics of a great leader (based on Greenleaf's writings):
the ability to listen, to identify and clarify the will of the group;
empathy; a desire to heal (to help make whole); awareness (especially of
self); reliance upon persuasion rather than positional authority; a capacity
for conceptual vision; foresight (linked with intuition); an attitude of
stewardship (of holding in trust); a commitment to fostering others' growth;
and a commitment to building a sense of community.

A good description of facilitative leadership, I thought -- and a good
description of the qualities I see you express here, qualities that blend
receptivity and active intervention.  I, for one, am very grateful that you
accept this <<bondage>> on our behalf.  Does any of this fit with how you
see your role?

Marie

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From AThomas561@AOL.COM Mon May 13 01:33:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: t
From: Alyss Thomas <AThomas561@AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 09:33:36 -0400

Walter, I love your message, <t>.   What it means I suppose is up to us to
find out.  If it wasn't what you intended however, your last message just
said "t".

I was also interested in the dream group that lost of people seem to be
referring to, but i must have missed any direct postings about it, or perhaps
it was before my time.  Anyway i have a special interest in dreams, as a
vivid dreamer and a therapist who takes special interest in welcoming
people's dreams. Also in lucid dreaming and social dreaming.   So if there
are simpatico dream events on the net i would be interested.

Also, what does "solunary" mean?

  Kind
 regards, Alyss
:>)

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From AThomas561@AOL.COM Mon May 13 01:33:39 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: connectivity & synchronicity
From: Alyss Thomas <AThomas561@AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 09:33:39 -0400

Marie, i felt a special kind of excitement reading your message addressed to
me, mirroring some of my words back to me (they look different refracted by
your words); it's true that using someone's name helps them feel recognised
and included.  If you - i am primarily talking about myself  here -
 unconsciously come from a semi-outsider postion in your life anyway, i
suppose this is the kind of transference you will experience on the net, and
using my name made me feel an instant connection with you - that you had
recognised what I'd said.  Like some super-sensitive long-distance fibres in
both of out beings had waved together and embraced and found it to be
pleasurable and not dangerous.
The synchronicity thing is interesting;  i've thought of that idea about the
net of Indra in relation to the net lots of times - but for some reason felt
drawn to write it and send it yesterday, for the first time. I think this
shows the list is working at an unconscious or synchronous level, as you were
in touch with the same idea at the same time, from another source.  I, too,
have loved quotes gleaned from the net - they really seem to help, arriving
in this way they always feel especially welcome and significant. Here is one
from me today, some excerpts from the Bhagavad Gita:
    My mysterious cloud of appearance is hard to pass beyond; but those who
in truth come to me go beyond the world of shadows.... In any way that men
love me in that same way they find my love: for many are the paths of men,
but they all in the end come to me...  All the worlds have their rest in me
as many pearls upon a string...I am the pure fragrance that comes from the
earth and the brightness of fire I am... I am the intelligence of the
intelligent. I am the beauty of the beautiful.

Maybe it's worth discussing the kinds of transferences we have onto this list
to facilitate an exploration of what helps us feel connected/unconnected.  I
think mine goes something like this:  there is something exciting going on
here, moments of pure pleasurable exciting intertwining of ideas/souls, in
which people are trying to reach beyond the prosaic; it's a medium where
you're permitted to quoet poetry to each other - imagine trying to do that at
a social gathering (well not the kind i go to);  and my response to that is i
want to join in, i have something to contribute, but will it be heard?  I
think the things i have to say here could maybe be heard better here,
potentially, than in conversation, because i think i express myself more
accurately when i write. So there's a kind of excitement/anxiety.Will i get
through (not when my server screws up; there is always some doubt about
whether my message will physically actually make it, or decombust into some
vortex in hyperspace) ; will i be heard - i don't know until someone takes up
my thread in a way which still leaves it as my thread, distinguishable in the
fabric they are weaving it into.  Probably a bit oedipal, about what
unnameable poetry is going on in my parents' bedroom!  And i think there is
something threatening when members of the 'group' appear to pair up. And all
the bad publicity about the net that there has been in the UK recently makes
me slightly wary there are hungry predators waiting to gobble me up!.  I'd be
interested to discuss this topic further - i suppose it's about our
expectations/needs/desires/fears.  You can also in a sense go naked here, i
think, because there's not the need for defences that you quickly develop
inf2f relationships, because you can choose when to reply, you have more
choices about how to reply, you have space to be measured and relflective in
how you do it, and i think there are less customs involved, eg talking about
the weather, having meals, having chitchat.

Midlife transitions/ crises/ depressions?  Tough work of transformation,
this, forcing you to leave behind the familiar world, dive down into depths
you hardly knew, and resurface in an unfamiliar place where you find you've
left behind people, careers, lifestyles... and who are you now?

Yours in reflection, Alyss. :>)

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From AThomas561@AOL.COM Mon May 13 01:33:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: communication , Einstein and  energy. . .
From: Alyss Thomas <AThomas561@AOL.COM>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 09:33:44 -0400

Judith, I was interested in a couple of ideas you mentioned.  The way you
talked about being a sensitive, being someone who takes in someone's energy
and processes it.  I'd be interested to talk with you more about this as this
is something i do but i don't have a clear understanding of it.
An example:  I walked into my therapist's office a couple of weeks ago and
immediately felt absolutely terrible:  incredibly strong feelings of anxiety,
feeling criticised, guilty, and that I couldn't speak a word of this or
understand where it was coming from.  Ten minutes previously i had been
functioning well and enjoyably in an adult environment. Fortunately he had
the grace to admit that these were feelings he was feeling that day about
something that was happening in his life, and that i must have picked these
up.  It was a relief to be able to understand this.  Because when i pick up
feelings - for example, i always pick up exactly what my husband is feeling
as soon as he is in the same building - i also seem to feel responsible and
guilty at the same time; also, usually, terrible - i seem to pick up negative
feelings more easily; i want to bring them to the surface, to get the other
person to talk about them; if they aren't aware of them or are in denial or
simply don't want to talk about them, this is fruitless and frustrating.
So when you have this ability - which i have learned to use to some extent in
my work as a therapist and as a writer & poet, as well as in very positive
relationships with all kinds of animals and plants - it also makes you
vulnerable to a kind of exhausting psychic overloading, which is hard to talk
about with the people involved. It sounds as though you have learned to work
with this constructively, and have learned a lot about it; albeit it must
have been a painful struggle; first of all, perhaps, the realisation that
other people were different to you and didn't feel as much.

The other idea i wanted to pick up:  about Einstein's concept about having to
solve the problem in a different place from the one in which the problem
originated.  I broadly understand and agree with this, but do you have
practical ideas as to how?  Change the paradigm in terms of the location, the
thinking, the music you play, the clothes you wear - do you have any
particular techniques?  I was thinking, in particular, of work with couples
(and my own relationship) where patterns of relating get stuck, and they
argue endlessly about the same things, which never change as a result of the
argument, resulting in more arguments.

Yours in empathy.  Alyss.

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From judithb@sbc1.com Mon May 13 03:19:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: communication , Einstein and  energy. . .
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 15:19:13 GMT

Alyss,
Many things to ponder in responding to your post. Let me pick a couple and
see if I can focus.
The ability to distinguish other energy in my body from my own, yes, was a
long process of differenciation. First is the holding of an assumption. In
the beginning I held the *unconscious* assumption that what I was feeling was
*me.* Changing that assumption to asking the question *Is this me -now I am
assuming for the moment *me* means the  form of me at this moment in time
whatever that is.
So by asking the question is what I am feeling mine and opening to allowing
the answer to emerge in the beginning was a help. You seem to be already
doing this.
Secondly, I frame everything as frequency and resonance.

You related your experience
< I walked into my therapist's office a couple of weeks ago and
immediately felt absolutely terrible:  incredibly strong feelings of anxiety,
feeling criticised, guilty, and that I couldn't speak a word of this or
understand where it was coming from.  Ten minutes previously i had been
functioning well and enjoyably in an adult environment. Fortunately he had
the grace to admit that these were feelings he was feeling that day about
something that was happening in his life, and that i must have picked these
up.  It was a relief to be able to understand this.  Because when i pick up
feelings>

If we had a collaborative model of healing, meaning we are each
healerlearners then the opportunity presented by you coming into your
therapist's office and having resonance with his issue, you would have taken
that opportunity to assist, but the he-expert-you-patient model exacerbates
the natural dynamics of the cooperative healing event. This is why I enjoy my
healing community because at all times one is present with the ability to
providereceive healing.
Anyway If I am feeling something I look at the process of energy flow and
think to myself, something is being amplified. Then I hold the question about
what is being amplified. I may walk, I may pray, I may make paper, what I may
not do is mentally *think* about it. I may dance the feeling, I may sing or
listen to music and I hold open to signs from my reality to give me feedback.
If the issue is a psychological issue, then I may juxtapose physical movement
to see what my body has to say. Now don't assume I'm adept at this, always
the scientist exploring possibilities.
The trick I have found for me is trusting my own knowledge and knowing and
what I get from the inner space. Plus I frame it from an energy locus. This
is why in the healing group I sometimes work in, the majority of people are
counselors of some sort but are using hands on to work with shifting the
energetic patterns in the issue to be healed.
I have a theory, untested of course, that the process of counseling is about
the counselor working their issues of healing with the people bringing the
issues to resonate. That the right people show up to cooperate in healing And
I mean energetic symbiosis.
What I have found in my own experience of healing issues through energy work,
meaning using hands on, working with the chakras and approachnig the process
from a consciously sacred space, is that lets say I have a pattern which was
created in my childhood thru a father issue and it got stored in my body
matrix with his energy, then the realease of that issue, is to find the
resonate energy, in my case this was Scottish and use a healer who brought
healing Scottish energy. I have experienced this directly twice int he last 2
years and I am convinced there is something about the lineage of the issue in
terms of cultural energy and how easfully the shift in the pattern can occur.
Now gifted healers can channel pure energy but there is something else at
work.
<for example, i always pick up exactly what my husband is feeling
as soon as he is in the same building - i also seem to feel responsible and
guilty at the same time; also, usually, terrible - i seem to pick up negative
feelings more easily; i want to bring them to the surface, to get the other
person to talk about them; if they aren't aware of them or are in denial or
simply don't want to talk about them, this is fruitless and frustrating.
So when you have this ability - which i have learned to use to some extent in
my work as a therapist and as a writer & poet, as well as in very positive
relationships with all kinds of animals and plants - it also makes you
vulnerable to a kind of exhausting psychic overloading, which is hard to talk
about with the people involved.>
exactly, Alyss. My personal intention which does in fact for the most part
keep me from the overload, is my way of holding what we are doing here on
this earth. It is paradoxically totally cooperative and totally detachment.
It is being of it but not in it. Which I think keeps me from wanting to *do*
something about it...I just know each in his or her own time.
< It sounds as though you have learned to work
with this constructively, and have learned a lot about it;>
Yes I hae spent the better part of 55 years learning about it and still
learning about it. Int he begining I did it alone in my room using my ability
to believe that one has access to all knowledge and merely needs to be able
to tap into it. Sort of like tuning a radio into a frequency. This week I had
an amazing moment of reading about ne of the Egyptian mystery school
initiations and finding that it was exactly what I used to begin my healing
process. It blew my mind. The book is called Awakening to Zero Point by Greg
Bradden.He is a geologist among other things and is speaking about the earth
shifting and the movement of the earth system toward less magnetism and
higher frequency leading toward the earth reversing its rotation and all that
is meaning at this point.

In terms of the impetus to affect a shift, in wanting to *do* something about
a persons need to heal, I think this relates to one's spiritual value system.

<Because when i pick up albeit it must
have been a painful struggle; first of all, perhaps, the realisation that
other people were different to you and didn't feel as much.>
Well, yes, painful, but my mother taught me the most important thing in life
ws a sense of humor. I balance the reverent with a good doseof irreverance at
all times. And I choose when to play *high drama* which I admit is great
fun:-) at times, but I remember it is not *life* at least in my reality.

<The other idea i wanted to pick up:  about Einstein's concept about having
to
solve the problem in a different place from the one in which the problem
originated.  I broadly understand and agree with this, but do you have
practical ideas as to how?>
Becaue of my early brush in the 50s with the psychological model, I chose to
find the answers elsewhere. It helped that my religion was symbolic and not
literal and asked one to continuously quetsion including God BTW. So that
gave me permission to rejectaccept any thought. And I systematically
questioned everything my reality was feeding back to me. I had a deep sense
of spirit and it felt incongruous with what my reality was saying.The
question is not what is wrong with me but what is right with me. I found
reading the fringe physists helpful ie: The Dancing Wu Li Masters finally in
the 70's, Capra stuff, but mostly an innate sense of what I now know as
sacred geometry. I just knew something about that and used it. I also found
Jane Robert's channeled stuff from Seth helpful in reframing the cultural
view of reality. I think each person has specific tools which they resonate
to and in my work I work with a person to find and activate those tools. So
for instance a young man came to me last month and I asked him what countries
he was dying to visit. He gave me a list but I sensed he wasn't saying what
he wanted, he was editing. Later I asked again and he revealed he really
resonated to the Celtic region and the druids but he was afraid to mention
this because people always reacted negatively. What had come up earlier was
his feeling of being ungrounded. Well, the druids are about the earth so
reading about the druids and using the rituals and cerimonies celebrating the
earth he could experiment. So currently Iam working to as Angeles Arrien says
*make the mystical practical*.
<  Change the paradigm in terms of the location, the
thinking, the music you play, the clothes you wear - do you have any
particular techniques?>
yes and yes and yes. Color is particularly interesting to work with. One of
my friends has huge Catholic issues and she would continually play grgorian
chants. We stopped her using this as it merely reinforced the patterns
resonatly and found other music which was unknow to her. When she played this
new music, then she would focus on an issue and see what she discovered.
<  I was thinking, in particular, of work with couples
(and my own relationship) where patterns of relating get stuck, and they
argue endlessly about the same things, which never change as a result of the
argument, resulting in more arguments.>
A friend of mine who is in deep depression-which I had and healed myself of
using the tools I could discover and create-picked up my key ring which has
about 20 keys onit and said *so many keys.* His problem is that he has only a
couple of keys on his ring AND he isn't open to other keys because he doesn't
*believe* in them. I never made a belief judgement when I went to use a key.
I just explored what I would learn about it. So studying any outside the box
stuff like Seth, I just shamlessly <g> plumbed it for nuggets which might
inform my stuckness. So my friend won't consider a soul retrieval from my
shaman teacher but he will consider acupuncture <g>. He doesn't have the
ability or allowance within himself to go beyond what he thinks is *truth*
and *reality*. For myself the desire to eliminate depression was greater than
my need for *truth.* Just my way.
What I do find fun is that there are great numbers of people who hold
alternative beliefs to the predominant US culture, coming to Cleveland with
opportunities to study. Currently I am exploring my deep resonance with the
Myans which began in the 60's when I visited the Yucatan.
In the end Alyss, it is my insatiable curiosity about how *reality* *works*.
its the little boy in me wanting to take the toaster apart to see what is
going on inside.
Hope these ramblings line up for you somehow.
Judith

Yours in empathy.  Alyss.

--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Mon May 13 03:23:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: leadership
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 15:23:09 GMT

Marie,
Your communication ability <g> re: control submit welcomed as I move around
my water color mind with ideassensings continusously bleeding into itself.
Gratefully,
Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET Mon May 13 05:13:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Solunary Terms (was Re: t)
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@EARTHLINK.NET>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 09:13:27 -0800

Alyss:

You ask:

> Also, what does "solunary" mean?

It's a coinage of mine, which I introduced to Psyber-L after reading a post
in which Judith used the term "personaluniversal"...  Here's a very
condensed account of why I coined the word...

I'd been aware for some time that language is basically monophonic but
strains towards polyphony (by analogy to Gregorian Chant "straining" to
become Palestrina), that there is a kind of polyphony created by the rapid
juxtaposition of two terms or ideas that are in opposition to each other
(Shakespeare's "insult, exult", Donne's "round earth's imagin'd corners"),
that universe as we perceive it is full of binary oppositions which we name
("dark" "light" and so forth), and that naming these pairings can in some
sense "constitute" cosmos (the Piconian, or is it Viconian, idea that "God"
*is* the coincidentia oppositorum)...

... in other words that polyphonies of this particular sort, naming
opposites in close juxtaposition, somehow *bridge* the gap between them at
an imaginal level, thus resonating in consciousness an original unity which
predates the separations "dark" "light", "masculine" "feminine", "dreaming"
"waking", and -- very important -- "brain" "mind"...

Thinking a great deal about this business of opposite pairs of words, and
feeling the need of a word to *refer* to all word-pairs of this sort, I
coined the phrase *solunary terms*, which I define as:

::  Two terms (such as sol and luna) which in juxtaposition include
::  cosmos by affording it a pair of opposing foci..

All this happened a while back on another list, but Judith's use of the
term "personaluniversal" called it to mind, so I transplanted the word
"solunary" here, and it seems to have proven useful...

*

I said this would be a pretty condensed version of my thoiught process in
coining the word, and if it interests you, there's some relevant stuff of
mine on polyphony and "synchronic" vs "diachronic" readings of text in my
essay "That HyperText is Linear", which is on my web site at:

>>>  http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/Synchron.html

using Dylan Thomas' poem *Fern Hill* as an example...

Hope this helps...

--
Charles
Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
*
hipbone games: http://haven.ios.com/~davehuge/

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From moonasylum@QED.NET Mon May 13 13:26:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: connectivity
From: Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 21:26:10 -0400

Judith,

<<Your communication ability <g> re: control submit welcomed as I move
around my water color mind with ideassensings continuously bleeding into
itself.>>

Your words often go lyrically cyberpainting through my <<water color mind>>
-- what an evocative image!  I am only beginning to walk in some of the
realms you inhabit, and you provide for me a map of the terrain.  I resonate.


Alyss,

Thank you for the words from the Bhagavad Gita; they have meaning for me in
ways I don't yet entirely understand.

<<Midlife transitions/crises/depressions?  Tough work of transformation,
this, forcing you to leave behind the familiar world, dive down into depths
you hardly knew, and resurface in an unfamiliar place where you find you've
left behind people, careers, lifestyles... and who are you now?>>

Yes, you heard what I was saying ... who am I now?  (And who are you now?)

My offering for today:

<<At every moment you choose yourself.  But do you choose *your* self?  Body
and soul contain a thousand possibilities out of which you can build many
I's.  But in only one of them is there a congruence of the elector and the
elected.  Only one -- which you will never find until you have excluded all
those superficial and fleeting possibilities of being and doing with which
you toy, out of curiosity or wonder or greed, and which hinder you from
casting anchor in the experience of the mystery of life, and the
consciousness of the talent entrusted to you which is your I.>>

                Dag Hammarskjold

Be well ...

Marie

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From moonasylum@QED.NET Mon May 13 13:26:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: dialectical stuff
From: Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 21:26:15 -0400

Walter,

You wrote:

<<We certainly are on a solunary theme here.  We seem to look at this
dialectical stuff no matter where we start.  Is there something wishing to
be born out of this intercourse?>>

John Sanford, in _The Invisible Partners_, addresses this issue far better
than I ever could:

<<There are opposites within us, call them what we like -- masculine and
feminine, anima and animus, Yin and Yang -- and these are eternally in
tension and are eternally seeking to unite.  The human soul is a great arena
in which the Active and the Receptive, the Light and the Dark, the Yang and
the Yin, seek to come together and forge within us an indescribable unity of
personality.  To achieve this union of the opposites within ourselves may
very well be the task of life, requiring the utmost in perseverence and
assiduous awareness....  The desire of the soul to unite with consciousness
and forge an indivisible and creative personality is the most powerful urge
within us.>>

Marie

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From moonasylum@QED.NET Mon May 13 13:26:18 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Leadership
From: Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 21:26:18 -0400

Walter,

I am a *lurker* on the research list (as those of you who subscribe just
found out when I changed my address!), and I read Alan Sondheim's article.
I studied psychohistory many years ago, and one of the techniques of textual
analysis I learned about there has helped me clarify my response to some of
what I read -- like the piece by Sondheim.  I went through the article and
pulled out all the words that struck me as emotionally charged, in order to
*read* the *mood* of the piece (I can post this here, if there is interest).
I believe that our choice of words, the metaphors we use, influence the
perception of what we say, and Sondheim uses a very aggressive model to
discuss the evolution of the net.  I felt like I was snatched up out of a
safe santuary and plucked down in the middle of an epic battle!  A far cry
from images of community, of organic growth and symbiosis, of playground ...

The discussion on leadership, and your posting of this article, has spun my
mind off on a thousand different tangents.  In another context, you wrote:

<<I have a sense that the active, delineating, task oriented and doing
aspects while they are not absent are ... behind ... >>

I sense that you are trying to encourage an active, delineating, task
oriented discussion about issues around control and leadership, and I would
like to meet that intention, but I am not clear about what direction to
take.  A discussion about person-to-person interaction, or about the role of
a leader *inside* a group, is very different from a meta discussion about
group boundaries and *intergroup* relations.  Or is the issue how to
determine <<virtual authenticity>> -- or <<the part the media plays in how
we work here>> -- or how we experience <<the patriarchy and the shadow
stuff>>?

Or are you merely trying to let us know that it is time to step out of the
process and critically reflect on our experience in it?

Marie

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Mon May 13 13:51:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Leadership
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 21:51:23 -0400

Marie,

Walter was just responding to a message that I sent that this was the sort
of discussion that I was looking for...  But don't get me wrong, I'm not in
the conflict based discussion, or speaking about the psychology of
listserv's from the perspective of one language conquering another..

But a transition to reflexive thought would be quite welcome from my
perspective..

Wilbur



At 09:26 PM 5/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Walter,
>
>I am a *lurker* on the research list (as those of you who subscribe just
>found out when I changed my address!), and I read Alan Sondheim's article.
>I studied psychohistory many years ago, and one of the techniques of textual
>analysis I learned about there has helped me clarify my response to some of
>what I read -- like the piece by Sondheim.  I went through the article and
>pulled out all the words that struck me as emotionally charged, in order to
>*read* the *mood* of the piece (I can post this here, if there is interest).
>I believe that our choice of words, the metaphors we use, influence the
>perception of what we say, and Sondheim uses a very aggressive model to
>discuss the evolution of the net.  I felt like I was snatched up out of a
>safe santuary and plucked down in the middle of an epic battle!  A far cry
>from images of community, of organic growth and symbiosis, of playground ...
>
>The discussion on leadership, and your posting of this article, has spun my
>mind off on a thousand different tangents.  In another context, you wrote:
>
><<I have a sense that the active, delineating, task oriented and doing
>aspects while they are not absent are ... behind ... >>
>
>I sense that you are trying to encourage an active, delineating, task
>oriented discussion about issues around control and leadership, and I would
>like to meet that intention, but I am not clear about what direction to
>take.  A discussion about person-to-person interaction, or about the role of
>a leader *inside* a group, is very different from a meta discussion about
>group boundaries and *intergroup* relations.  Or is the issue how to
>determine <<virtual authenticity>> -- or <<the part the media plays in how
>we work here>> -- or how we experience <<the patriarchy and the shadow
>stuff>>?
>
>Or are you merely trying to let us know that it is time to step out of the
>process and critically reflect on our experience in it?
>
>Marie
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Mon May 13 15:06:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Theorization of the Internet  (forwarded)
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 03:06:44 GMT

All,

Forwarding a post after some off-list discussion with Wilbur.  Note this
forwarded from the Research list.

Walter.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


On Sat, 11 May 1996 19:43:14 -0400, Alan Sondheim <sondheim@panix.com> wrote:

[Please excuse cross-posting; the text is relevant.]



Linguistic Dispersion and the Theorization of the Internet


While the Internet itself is a collocation of client-server technologies
that are not necessarily implemented with the same structures (even TCP/IP
is of limited presence), there are elements that are open to analysis,
that cross traditional boundaries, and that are susceptible in fact to a
theoretical linguistics of language change, acculturation, and upheaval.
Colin Renfrew describes a number of scenarios for such transformations,
some of which go back to nineteenth-century thinking. In any case, these
and others can be used for theorizing elements of the Net that otherwise
go undetected or are described purely through phenomenological approaches.

I will give examples of these scenarios and their usefulness in theorizing
the Net. I am not of course vouching for their verity in Indo-European or
other studies, although my understanding of them has come from such read-
ing.

1. Takeover: One domain is subjected to another by conquest, and the lat-
ter may impose new standards. An example is the Netscape takeover of Mo-
saic (and for that matter, Netcruiser); early Web accounts presented the
latter as the primary browser. The takeover is accompanied by continued
development of Netscape (see below), into further extensions of html,
Java, and now telephony. This can be considered a _replacement model_ in
a network _core._

Takeover results in _colonization_ that then transforms into self-colon-
ization, a process described by Franz Fanon. In self-colonization, also
referred to as the myth of a national literature under the sign of empire,
the colonized introject the values of the colonizer. Thus Mosaic has had
to make concessions to the continued growth of Netscape and its dominance;
and thus the various commercial bbs-services such as Compuserve, AOL, Pro-
digy, etc. have had to scramble to "catch up."

Takeover on IRC, to give another example, can refer to channel takeover,
and if new techniques are developed, they're recoded and implemented in the
various war programs.

2. Language diffusion through perceived superior technology imported from
outside. A Hittite document on horse-training uses Mitannian terms, for
example. Basic Internet terms are often borrowed by other languages direc-
tly, just as Quebec _joual_ spelled "weekend" "ouicenne" in some key
texts of the 60s.

The import of technology occurs in a number of areas - from Java applets
imported into home terminals, to the IRC war programs mentioned in #1. A
strong instance of this is the continuous cross-fertilization of MOOs,
with programming on one MOO ported to another.

Another example is shareware/freeware itself, which is a literal import;
tiny fugue goes from a single program to "tiny-fugue-like" clients. It
becomes a class term - just as, for some people "listserv" refers to the
totality of email lists, not just those employing listserv software.

(Language diffusion can be extremely complex. Diffusion can be localized
and in relation to the Net may include other communications modalities
such as the telephone, printed matter, snailmail, and face to face con-
tact. Think of hacking circuits which use all sorts of contact, including
hacking conferences, 2600 magazine and 2600 newsgroups, etc. These mod-
alities can be seen in relation to Fidonet, as well as local bulletin-
board software, databanks, chat exchange, and in-house email. All of this
is describable by the "wave of advance" model described by Renfrew in
Archaeology and Language. Random localized movement (for example, farmers'
children settling near their parents) results, through quickly increasing
population density, in widespread cultural influence - without migration,
takeover, etc. This model works well with the modalities mentioned above,
all of which could be considered operative on a "neighborhood" model.)

3. There are also _autonomous_ or internal transformations which always
occur in a series of steps or _plateaus._ Beta-versions of software are
the simplest example, or decimal-incremental indexing of continuous up-
grading. (I'm writing this in Pico 2.5 for example.) Beta-versions often
results in major changes, and the integers are reserved for basic major
changes (Netscape 1.0, 2.0, etc.). This numbering does go back, I be-
lieve, to Wittgenstein's Tractatus and the Principia Mathematica of Rus-
sell and Whitehead; there may be earlier antecedents.

Plateaus "slough" off into _minor steps,_ which are often created to fix
software bugs. These steps may be nothing more than patches into the soft-
ware, or they may be integrated into a new beta version. Usually, they
are released before the new version, however, sometimes with a warning.
They can be an Internet form of recall; I've seen this from Pavel Curtis
in regard to the MOO core, for example. I consider the minor steps a form
of _accretion,_ the slow growth and maturing of a beta version before its
abandonment for the next plateau.

4. Renfrew describes a process of empire collapse which is critical for
understanding the Net. The boundary regions of an empire are always sites
of contestation; they also represent the phenomenological horizon of the
Other at odds with the core, which can be conceived of as "the civil." An
empire may over-extend, however, in which case, the boundary regions apply
pressure to the core; at the same time, they may begin defining themselves
as autonomous, using the tools and languages of the core. The core begins
to retreat from the peripheral zone, and the boundary regions move in to a
limited extent, becoming independent and often anarchic. This process
(which I have elaborated on above) characterizes to some extent the break-
downs of the Roman empire and the USSR; in both cases, anarchy has meant
a problematization of etiquette and rhetoric (both interrelated) as well
as language itself. (I use "anarchy" in the sense of confused local rule,
often chieftain-organized, and often in a state of competition with other
local groups.)

If we look at the Net pre-1989, for the most part it is small, organized
(the RFCs playing a major and critical role), and, in spite of the Worm
of 1988, relatively pacific. The development of the Web took this Net by
surprise; the Web can be considered an intrusion or migration of new
standards (html, .gif, etc.) across the older Net (within which standards
such as .gif were relatively well-defined in limited domains).

What happens?

a. The Net as a whole splits into ASCII and Web-dominated applications,
with other sound/video/text applications on the periphery.

b. This split parallels the split between community and presentation - as
well as the split between information and entertainment, and the split
between active and passive. (Please note this is _extremely rough here,_
and not to be taken at all as "ultimate" or "fixed" characteristics. The
reality is much more complex.)

c. The older Net becomes less coherent, and more anarchic; there is a
general system collapse as advertising, hackers, spams, viruses, etc.
invade. RFCs no longer have the governance (which was by consensus only)
that they once had; their non-commercialist aspect is bulldozed over.
Newsgroups and the like are increasingly invaded.

d. In response, this older Net, what I call the darknet, develops more
sophisticated responses, such as filtering, war defenses in IRC, and
totally moderated newsgroups. These parallel the development of monas-
teries in Europe, "citadels" of learning preserving classical texts and
even literacy during the "Middle Ages." As with the monasteries, one can
say that the moderated newsgroups, etc. are interrelated, but the general
sense of Internet community has been increasingly breaking down.

In other words: We can see the older Net collapsing with the rise of the
Web. The collapse is accompanied by a lack of central authority, and the
rise in anarchic tendencies, coupled with defensive responses. And instead
of seeing this as a fight between anarchy (in the traditional sense) and
capital (which it is), one can also see this as a transformation of lan-
guage itself - the older languages becoming jargon, and the newer lan-
guages adopting other sensory modalities, such as image, sound, and move-
ment. (It's useful to think of "jargon" in a technical sense here, re-
ferring to a somewhat underground/underrepresented demographics which has
created its own speech, built on archaic forms to some extent. Consider
the jargon on IRC, or MOO/MUD talk in which the prefix "@" can be used to
delineate an ingroup, create a sense of "local color," and refer to tech-
nical issues. But this jargon, like the MOO language or the MUD lpc, are
becoming increasingly "minor," in the sense of a "minor literature" (see
Deleuze and Guattari on Kafka) - all of these are _regional issues,_ far
away from the concerted sense of power and sentience displayed on the Web
at this point in time.)

This analysis is crude as it stands, and the processes outlined above are
never "pure." But the analysis does take into account such things as pro-
tocol totalities (Unix, html, TCP/IP) and their borders, the growth of new
applications and the disappearance of older ones, and the importing and
exporting of code across the Net, even across applications. If the Net is
a widely disparate accumulation of interconnected functions, protocols,
applications, and demographics (not to mention telecommunications chan-
nels), it is also a somewhat closed region (in the sense of a closed set)
of competing languages, functions, protocols, etc., with _traderoutes_ of
shareware/freeware/coding among them.  Models of linguistic dispersion can
help one understand this relative cacophony. The modeling is rough, but it
just might be the best we have.

(Further research would take into account "core borrowings," basic struc-
tures or functions that would be imported and rewritten from one to ano-
ther application. The various _forms_ of applications or functions would
be considered, much as differing literatures are examined. Again, Laurel's
work on Computers as Theater has some relevance here. Finally, there is
the issue of dialect. Chomsky somewhere describes a language as a dialect
with an army; here, we can consider its equivalent as an application with
corporate backing. In any case, should Netscape be considered a browser
language, Mosaic and Chameleon as dialects? While these terms seem absurd,
tracing influences among the applications is not, and here again we would
turn to linguistic dispersion theories, considering not only older tree
models of development (i.e. Netscape 2.1b coming before Netscape 2.2b
etc.) but also models based on diffusion, wave phenomena, and overlapping
regions.)


__________________________________________________________________________
Alan Sondheim, sondheim@panix.com
    work: http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html
    images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Mon May 13 15:06:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: leadership
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 03:06:55 GMT

Marie, Judith, Is'e, and all,

> submit and control
> Receptivity and action

We have been exploring these pairs of opposites.  Judith found a way of making
paper, entering into the creative process by letting go of control.

I was attracted to the idea of having balance in the creative act, in the
birthing and parenting process, especially in the leadership tasks in my life,
including Psybernet work.

Is'e suggested  . . .  surrender to control.  We have deeper urges . . . both
men and women . . . to control and to submit.

Judith spoke of power and control in the psych professions.  How the words
control and submit are a war metaphor, and are loaded (a gun metaphor?)  when it
comes to speaking of the masculine and the feminine.

Marie enters the discussion:  and relates it again to leadership -- one I am
interested in, and which directly relates to the experiential learning about
working on lists in this medium.

> There can be an easy, reciprocal flow between receptivity and action -- an
> awareness of shifting moods and needs -- to receive and hold at times and
> then at other times to lead in the dance.

A far cry from control and submit.

I found it affirming and confirming to read the passage from Hermann Hesse and
your comments Marie:

<< "If the high Authority appoints you to an office, know this: that every
step upward on the ladder of offices is not a step into freedom but into
bondage.  The higher the office, the tighter the bondage.  The greater the
power of the office, the stricter the service....">>

You quote a useful list of leadership qualities:

> A good description of facilitative leadership, I thought -- and a good
> description of the qualities I see you express here, qualities that blend
> receptivity and active intervention.  I, for one, am very grateful that you
> accept this <<bondage>> on our behalf.

Thank you.

> Does any of this fit with how you see your role?

Yes, but only in part.  I am a professional helper and facilitator.  I am a
servant, paid by my clients to attend to them for their benefit..  In my
practice I work within the tight canvass of fee, time, and place.  There is not
the sense of bondage as it is balanced by the fee.  That provides the - form -
that Judith, I think,  spoke of that allows us to let go.  I see those elements
as helping build the safe space.  That canvas also includes having a place to
stand in the professional world, having the credentials, membership of
professional associations with criteria for membership, set by boards of
examiners and so on.  As I move away from the receptivity and activity of the
therapeutic hour, into the context of that hour, into the politics and sociology
and economics of it, I think we move more to the are of control and submit.

To come back to the medium here . . . I think Psyber-L is more like the
therapeutic hour.  I do not charge a fee for the groups, however they are
rewarding for me.  I do have a desire to make this project more viable
economically. How to develop professional work in this area on the net is one of
the topics for this list.  That brings us into the context here, where
professional bodies do not count perhaps as much as our virtual authenticity.
The part the media plays in how we work here is very difficult to pin point.  It
is with this in mind that I posted the article by Alan Sondheim which Wilbur
drew my attention to.  Alan  speaks of war, takeover, conquest, as part of the
evolution of the net.

Steve Jobs called it the Cyber Wars of the 1990s -- do those wars affect our
psyche?  Are the words control and submit fitting in this context?  And is there
always a parallel process of some kind?  It would be blind to say the patriachy
and the shadow stuff is all *out there*.

I see, we are back to that old devil theme.

Perhaps Is'e, that is what you meant that we have these urges?


Walter

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From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Mon May 13 15:06:55 1996
To: Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: leadership
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 03:06:55 GMT


Marie, Judith, Is'e, and all,

> submit and control 
> Receptivity and action 

We have been exploring these pairs of opposites.  Judith found a way of making
paper, entering into the creative process by letting go of control.

I was attracted to the idea of having balance in the creative act, in the
birthing and parenting process, especially in the leadership tasks in my life,
including Psybernet work.

Is'e suggested  . . .  surrender to control.  We have deeper urges . . . both
men and women . . . to control and to submit.  

Judith spoke of power and control in the psych professions.  How the words
control and submit are a war metaphor, and are loaded (a gun metaphor?)  when it
comes to speaking of the masculine and the feminine.  

Marie enters the discussion:  and relates it again to leadership -- one I am
interested in, and which directly relates to the experiential learning about
working on lists in this medium.  

> There can be an easy, reciprocal flow between receptivity and action -- an
> awareness of shifting moods and needs -- to receive and hold at times and
> then at other times to lead in the dance.

A far cry from control and submit.  

I found it affirming and confirming to read the passage from Hermann Hesse and
your comments Marie:

<< "If the high Authority appoints you to an office, know this: that every
step upward on the ladder of offices is not a step into freedom but into
bondage.  The higher the office, the tighter the bondage.  The greater the
power of the office, the stricter the service....">>

You quote a useful list of leadership qualities:

> A good description of facilitative leadership, I thought -- and a good
> description of the qualities I see you express here, qualities that blend
> receptivity and active intervention.  I, for one, am very grateful that you
> accept this <<bondage>> on our behalf.  

Thank you. 

> Does any of this fit with how you see your role?

Yes, but only in part.  I am a professional helper and facilitator.  I am a
servant, paid by my clients to attend to them for their benefit..  In my
practice I work within the tight canvass of fee, time, and place.  There is not
the sense of bondage as it is balanced by the fee.  That provides the - form -
that Judith, I think,  spoke of that allows us to let go.  I see those elements
as helping build the safe space.  That canvas also includes having a place to
stand in the professional world, having the credentials, membership of
professional associations with criteria for membership, set by boards of
examiners and so on.  As I move away from the receptivity and activity of the
therapeutic hour, into the context of that hour, into the politics and sociology
and economics of it, I think we move more to the are of control and submit.  

To come back to the medium here . . . I think Psyber-L is more like the
therapeutic hour.  I do not charge a fee for the groups, however they are
rewarding for me.  I do have a desire to make this project more viable
economically. How to develop professional work in this area on the net is one of
the topics for this list.  That brings us into the context here, where
professional bodies do not count perhaps as much as our virtual authenticity.
The part the media plays in how we work here is very difficult to pin point.  It
is with this in mind that I posted the article by Alan Sondheim which Wilbur
drew my attention to.  Alan  speaks of war, takeover, conquest, as part of the
evolution of the net.  

Steve Jobs called it the Cyber Wars of the 1990s -- do those wars affect our
psyche?  Are the words control and submit fitting in this context?  And is there
always a parallel process of some kind?  It would be blind to say the patriachy
and the shadow stuff is all *out there*.  

I see, we are back to that old devil theme.

Perhaps Is'e, that is what you meant that we have these urges?


Walter



From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Mon May 13 15:29:58 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: t
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 03:29:58 GMT

Alyss,

> Walter, I love your message, <t>.   What it means I suppose is up to us to
> find out.  If it wasn't what you intended however, your last message just
> said "t".

It stands for test.  And it was not meant to go to the list!  Alas it was not a
mysterious key to the meaning of . . . anything.


> I was also interested in the dream group that lost of people seem to be
> referring to, but i must have missed any direct postings about it, or perhaps
> it was before my time.  Anyway i have a special interest in dreams, as a
> vivid dreamer and a therapist who takes special interest in welcoming
> people's dreams. Also in lucid dreaming and social dreaming.   So if there
> are simpatico dream events on the net i would be interested.

There is a Dream group that started from various happenings on this list.  It is
closed unfortunately.  One of the ideas is that this list is a _starting point_
for more specific, closed, and time limited groups.  There are several others
brewing and they will be announced here.  As you can imagine it is important in
some of our work in this psych area to have lists like that with a different
format.

You will hear about the Dream Event List here, and while it is a confidential
list, there is a built in plan to produce a public summary upon the closure.  As
an experiment we can learn from meta discussion in this list about these
psybergroups (as i coin them).

Dreaming, social dreaming, lucid dreaming can certainly happen on this list too,
the other groups really work best i think when they grow naturally out of the
discussions here and when there is a need for them.

> Also, what does "solunary" mean?

Oh dear, we have been having fun here using this word that is a coinage by
Charles Cameron.  I take it to mean something that can hold two opposites
together ie the sun and the moon.  I am not sure if i am taking licence with it
-- perhaps it is only meant to refer to words.  But that is life!  Once you
create something, power and control over it go out the window.


Walter

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From moonasylum@QED.NET Tue May 14 03:26:40 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: context
From: Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 11:26:40 -0400

Wilbur,

I appreciate your use of my name.

You wrote: <<a transition to reflexive thought would be quite welcome from
my perspective..>>

Walter wrote: <<I think the group is wanting that, Wilbur in particular,
though I am not clear what he wants exactly, I was listening to his valuing
not the content so much as the style of work in the Alan Sondheim text that
I heard as his reply to my question about what he would like from this list.>>

I agree with Walter -- I'm not clear about exactly what you want to see
here.  There have been reflective posts, although they are not written in
the same style as that of Sondheim.  There is a place for *scholarly*
reflection, but I do not think this is that place.  This is an experiential
forum, with a commitment to grounding our dialogue in our own personal
experience and context, which is why I involve myself here.  I have not seen
you post anything comparable to Sondheim's piece, either, and I am curious:
why do you stay here if this <<sort of discussion>> is not what you are
looking for?

Research is one of my interests, and my own commitment to the work this
listserv is doing has its roots in my beliefs about the underlying
philosophy of knowledge creation itself -- which is very relevant to this
discussion, so I will *wax reflective* about it here.

I read an excellent book on this topic last year called _Methods from the
Margins_ by Sandra Kirby and Kate McKenna.  It is an exploration of research
theory that is based in a belief that knowledge is a social construction and
that power differentials have determined the way in which knowledge is
created and used, often to the detriment of those who are not part of the
dominant class (people who live "on the margins", who are not academics).  I
like here the implicit foundation of the constructivist perspective -- that
knowledge and meaning are created in the context of a social consensus for
what reality is, and that as a result it is impossible to find a totally
detached place from which to observe the landscape of social interactions.
Traditional research has tried to find such a place; to create artificial,
controlled situations and contexts for study which are then assumed to be
relevant to the wider world.  People live in a human world, full of depth
and color and emotion that informs, influences, inspires, oppresses; to
study behavior as a self-contained intrapsychic phenomenon ignores the
context which stimulates and receives the behavior.  I believe this
seriously compromises the data obtained.  Here, we have an even greater need
to provide a sense of personal context, as many of the usual nonverbal cues
which we use to understand other people are missing.

Another excellent book that addresses this issue is _Research Interviewing_
by Elliot Mishler.  He rejects the conceptual framework of traditional
*scientific* (or so-called *objective*) research, which he believes to be
reductionistic in that it attempts to strip away the contextual surround of
the object of study -- which considers an interview (whether f2f or
questionnaire-based, which is usually the mode of Internet research) to be a
behavioral event to be studied as a self-contained enactment of a series of
stimuli and responses.  According to Mishler, <<the formal interview ...
excludes exactly those factors that allow the participants in the flow of
ordinary discourse to understand directly and clearly what questions and
answers mean.>>  IMO, it also excludes those factors that allow the
researcher to understand what questions and answers mean, and research that
does not endorse the primacy of meaning misses the point.  Behavior does not
arise in a vacuum, nor can it be understood in one.  Deprived of the context
in which it lives and breathes, it has no intrinsic meaning; like a rose
plucked from the garden in which it grew, it quickly loses its lifeforce and
vitality.  I concur with Mishler that:

<<Rather than serving as a stimulus having a predetermined and presumably
shared meaning and intended to elicit a response, a question may more
usefully be thought of as part of a circular process through which its
meaning and that of its answer are created in the discourse between
interviewer and respondent as they try to make continuing sense of what they
are saying to each other.>>

This is the process I see happening here -- a circular process of trying to
make sense of what we are trying to say to each other.  This is a
constructivist perspective; as family therapist Michael White so eloquently
puts it in _Therapeutic Conversations_ (edited by Stephen Gilligan), it is a
perspective committed to the elimination of:

<<procedures that subvert taken-for-granted realities and practices; those
so-called "truths" that are split off from the conditions and the context of
their production; those disembodied ways of speaking that hide their biases
and prejudices; and those familiar practices of self and of relationship
that are subjugating of person's lives.>>

The traditional research paradigm seeks to be objective -- to measure
isolated phenomena by using pre-set, narrow categories -- and understanding
is often sought in order to predict and control behavior.  Qualitative
research, however, is based on a more holistic view that the whole is
greater than the sum of the parts, and therefore attempts to obtain a more
global level of understanding.  It adopts an inductive approach to data
analysis, allowing the information to coalesce into its own inherent
structure without preliminary speculation.  It is a discovery-oriented
approach -- which is how I see our endeavor here, as a process of discovery.

I object to traditional research precisely because of the assumptions from
which it operates -- and the fragmented, dehumanized picture of life that it
portrays. Prediction as a means of testing one's understanding is a worthy
goal; prediction as a means of control is an abuse of the power that often
adheres to the possession of knowledge [control issues, again, Walter!].  I
am uneasy with the deductive approach to creating knowledge because of the
human tendency to see what one expects to see, to accomodate the data to the
perceptual filters used to interpret it rather than attending to the
subjective realities it contains.  I also believe that there is little
validity in generalizations that assume behavior stimulated in artificially
contrived situations is the same as behavior that occur in the complex web
of social interrelationships
in which people live and learn and love.  Here, by entering the process as
who we are as fully as possible, we are trying to create a *real* context
within which to interrelate, and from which to understand each other.

The qualitative approach restores reverance for humanity to the study of
human beings, considering everyone to have a unique gift to offer: the
willingness to share aspects of being with an authentic voice, and therefore
to reciprocally enhance one other's process of discovery of self and world.
In this kind of joint endeavor, there is an inherent equality of power, a
reciprocal flow of information between experts.  Some of us (Walter
especially comes to mind) are experts in creating a conversational and
interactional climate that facilitates collaborative discourse.  Some of us
(all of us!) are experts on our own experience, memories, goals, and
responses.  IMO, full egalitarian participation in the creation of knowledge
is a necessary prerequisite for the generation of meaningful insight --
insight that illuminates some aspect of the vagaries of human experience,
rooted in awareness of the rich contextual surround that informs and
receives human thought and emotion, and dedicated to humanity's perennial
quest to understand the nature of the self and explore the multifaceted
dimensions of reality.  This quest is why I am here.

Comments, anybody?  Wilbur?

Marie

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From moonasylum@QED.NET Tue May 14 03:26:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Leadership
From: Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 11:26:50 -0400

Walter,

<<By using the more feminine words for the process of evolution, does that
it make it less tooth and claw?>>

Metaphors, word choices, shape our perceptions of reality.  Net evolution
can certainly be seen as a process of conquest, of war -- but by using these
images, do we not risk the escalation of those kinds of activities?  I
prefer Sondheim's analogy to colonization, to the dispersion of language, to
the dissemination of interactional norms and the evolution of values.
Several people here have said they feel like pioneers, building a <<brave
new world>>.

Thank you for clarifying your intent in posting the message from the
research group; I was having a difficult time understanding the reason you
brought it here, and looking for a hidden message that wasn't there.  You wrote:

<<I don't think I have a hidden desire for this group to go one way or
another -- even the Psybernet project, at the moment learning what it is
like to have two lists on the go, and experiencing that is enough.>>

It is interesting, being involved with both groups.  The Dream Event draws
me to deep subterranean places inside, and I find myself inclined to be more
reflective, more rational, here in response.  An attempt to maintain a sense
of balance, I think.

I still have a lot of thoughts about the issues we have been discussing, but
I think I will let my response to Wilbur serve as my *reflective*
contribution for now.  I have been rather *wordy* of late, and I am getting
tired of the sound of my own voice!  I hope others will share their thoughts
about the process of what we are doing here, and the way in which we do it.

<<I love this list!>>

Me, too!  And I am enjoying this dance ...

Marie

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Tue May 14 04:53:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Human investigation without human context?
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 12:53:51 -0400

Marie,

In response to your message..

>I am uneasy with the deductive approach to creating knowledge because of the
>human tendency to see what one expects to see, to accomodate the data to the
>perceptual filters used to interpret it rather than attending to the
>subjective realities it contains.

Deductive?  Inductive?  Strange, I use both methods..  My typical method of
inquiry is to study all of the available information and then allow that to
settle until a flash of insight makes it clear.  Once I have that flash of
insight, I then return to a deductive process to attempt to validate the
inductive reasoning.  Unless I'm able to validate the inductive reasoning
with a logic based model, then I continue to think about the various
positions until I'm able to separate out the issues and contexts into a
meaningful whole.  Sometimes I reach for outside influence, but sometimes
it's just a walk or a short nap that I need to allow the issues to come into
focus.  Most often a concerted effort to resolve an issue creates a high
level of frustration, which when the concious effort is released, then
produces the impetus for a "flash of insight" to a possible solution.

I'm not sure that I understand how you believe that as human beings we can
somehow avoid bringing the human context to the building of knowledge.
Deductive and inductive are nice models, but I see them as complimentary
parts of the process of building knowledge, not as separate processes.
Granted they each have strengths and weaknesses, but deductive, (ie, linear)
and inductive (ie. non-linear) thought are simply descriptions of left and
right brain thinking, and knowledge occurs as a process in both sides of the
brain.

But on the subject of knowledge, all belief systems, (ie, knowledge) are
created on assumptions, and all assumptions are created on a contextual
human basis.  If you break down the religions of the world, the differences
in the religions have to do with the assumptions that were used as a basis
for the resolution of the great struggles of being human.  The root issue of
death ends causes very different religious belief systems, all from varied
root assumptions on what happens to us when we die.  So the basic
assumptions created in the varying contexts have caused very different
belief systems which are fundamentally at odds with each other.

Einstein's "Theory Of Relativity" was simply taking a mathematical
description of here and now, (x, y, and z) for here and t for time and then
applying the body of knowledge that had been developed, known as Calculus,
to this simple description.  The first few pages of Einstein's "On
Relativity" express reality as x + y + z + t and then proceed to Integrate
that formula.  Einstein's findings are a natural result of applying a
Calculus based understanding to the world around us.

So all knowledge is based on the human context, whether we wish to admit it
or not.

>IMO, full egalitarian participation in the creation of knowledge
>is a necessary prerequisite for the generation of meaningful insight --
>insight that illuminates some aspect of the vagaries of human experience,
>rooted in awareness of the rich contextual surround that informs and
>receives human thought and emotion, and dedicated to humanity's perennial
>quest to understand the nature of the self and explore the multifaceted
>dimensions of reality.  This quest is why I am here.

My experience is that egalitarian participation is not a necessary
prerequisite for the generation of meaningful insight.  Egalitarian
participation is perhaps more comfortable for the greatest number, but each
individual's degree of emotion habituation is a factor on whether they find
egalitarian participation meaningful or not.  For myself, egalitarian
participation seems more like politics and a lot less than a "hunt" for
knowledge.

Individual effort generates insight, which is shared with others.  Every
individual's individual impulses are the sum total of the expression of the
human context, and whether they are aware of the human context, they are
still a part, nay even an individual expression of the human context.

I'm here for the same quest in the exploration of self and the nature of
humanity, but my context is quite different from your's and Walters.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From moonasylum@QED.NET Tue May 14 06:40:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: human investigation
From: Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 14:40:45 -0400

Wilbur,

In response to *your* message:

I think we are not so far apart as you seem to believe -- mostly a
difference in expression, and a need for clarification of meaning.

<<Deductive?  Inductive?  Strange, I use both methods..>>

So do I, exactly as you describe.  My objection to the use of a deductive
approach is an objection to an *exclusive* use of deductive investigation,
of beginning with a hypothesis that assumes what will be found.  In spite of
all efforts to avoid it, beginning with an assumption in mind tends to color
what is seen -- even what is looked for.  I did not mean to imply that there
is no place for deductive reasoning in evaluating information.  Perhaps this
is your frustration here -- we do not step back and take the time to
articulate what we deduce from our experience?

Like you, I have always immersed myself in anything I want to learn,
reaching for all available information, then allowing it to settle.  Living
with the data, letting it speak to me.  That is how I see what I am doing
here -- immersing myself in the process, becoming myself a part of the
process, living *in* the data, and listening to what I learn.

<<I'm not sure that I understand how you believe that as human beings we can
somehow avoid bringing the human context to the building of knowledge.>>

I do not believe that we can avoid bringing the human context to the
building of knowledge!  That is my point!  What we *do* avoid, all too
often, is examining and revealing that context, the bias and personal
*slant* we bring to issues.  This can create the mistaken impression that
the knowledge so derived is complete, and objective -- totally separate from
the context brought by whoever has designed and evaluated the study.  I
think it is imporatnt to be aware of influences that shape our views, and of
the limits of our knowledge, and of the personal frames of meaning that we
employ to make sense of the world -- and I think it is important to disclose
them.  Such disclosures need to be part of the data, to be evaluated by
others along with everything else.

<<Granted they each have strengths and weaknesses, but deductive (ie,
linear) and inductive (ie. non-linear) thought are simply descriptions of
left and right brain thinking, and knowledge occurs as a process in both
sides of the brain.>>

I value both sides of my brain, as I know you do -- but I would not link
deductive with linear and inductive with non-linear thought.  Intuition can
inform the process of deduction, and rational thought is vitally important
in extracting meaning from information.

<<But on the subject of knowledge, all belief systems ... are created on
assumptions, and all assumptions are created on a contextual human basis.>>

Exactly!  Make them visible!

<<For myself, egalitarian participation seems more like politics and a lot
less than a "hunt" for knowledge.>>

Who creates knowledge, and the uses to which that knowledge is put, are very
much political issues.  There is an intellectual elitism inherent in the
scientific tradition that has effectively silenced the voices of the
majority of the human race for centuries (no, I am not just talking about
women -- although it is a good example of what I mean), and this limits the
knowledge we are able to obtain.  What is found on a "hunt" for knowledge
will depend to no small degree on where one goes "hunting!"  If I want to
understand the human race, I will hunt where people are, and try to listen
to as many voices as I can -- not just the ones that make the creation of
knowledge a career, not just the ones who express themselves well in
writing, not just the ones who communicate in a linear, rational manner.

<<Individual effort generates insight, which is shared with others.>>

Yes, like we both are doing now.

<<I'm here for the same quest in the exploration of self and the nature of
humanity, but my context is quite different from your's and Walters.>>

Diversity ... what would we learn if we all thought the same?

Marie

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Tue May 14 08:10:53 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Leadership
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 20:10:53 GMT

Marie,

> Sondheim uses a very aggressive model to
> discuss the evolution of the net.  I felt like I was snatched up out of a
> safe santuary and plucked down in the middle of an epic battle!  A far cry
> from images of community, of organic growth and symbiosis, of playground ...

Exactly.  Yet to be fiddling while Rome burns would be no good.  The question I
have continues, is the model agreaive, or is the actuality demand we use such a
model to call a spade a spade.  I really do not know.  By using the more
feminine words for the process of evolution, does that make it less tooth and
claw?

I am reminded of a book called Dawn Warriors - probably out of print and
impossible to find - written by the lecturer I had for biology in 69.  The theme
was that our evolution demands both cooperation community love as well as war
and conflict.  That wars are won not only by the most agressive side, but by
those who have the most cooperation and will to live.  Another both-and
perspective.


~~~


> I sense that you are trying to encourage an active, delineating, task
> oriented discussion about issues around control and leadership, . . .

Ah!  Close but not quite . . . I think the group is wanting that, Wilbur in
particular, though I am not clear what he wants exactly, I was listening to his
valuing not the content so much as the style of work in the Alan Sondheim text
that I heard as his reply to my question about what he would like from this
list.

And as I listen to the group I also see myself as a participnt . . .  and yes
the question  of *leadership* is relevant to me, however I am quite happy with
this group and the discussion, I would not want to skew for my personal needs.
As it happens I think this personal interest of mine is also a group question.
How others lead Internet projects and groups would be on topic -- and fine if we
do that in the context of << images of community, of organic growth and
symbiosis, of playground >>  I think it is not a case of either - or.



> and I would
> like to meet that intention, but I am not clear about what direction to
> take.  A discussion about person-to-person interaction, or about the role of
> a leader *inside* a group, is very different from a meta discussion about
> group boundaries and *intergroup* relations.  Or is the issue how to
> determine <<virtual authenticity>> -- or <<the part the media plays in how
> we work here>> -- or how we experience <<the patriarchy and the shadow
> stuff>>?

How do you connect with any of those themes?  I think they will all get the
attention they deserve if we simply have our *authenticity here*  and that we
are doing I think.

> Or are you merely trying to let us know that it is time to step out of the
> process and critically reflect on our experience in it?

Not particularly.  I think we do some of that already.  I don't think I have a
hidden desire for this group to go one way or another -- even the Psybernet
project, at the moment learning what it is like to have two lists on the go, and
experiencing that is enough.

Ah, I am a very non-directive facilitator, you cant even get me to say what I
think we should do.  It is not a ploy!  I can be directive when I think I need
to.  All here is going just fine as far as I am concerned, I love this list! --
and fine to have some sense of the diversity here.

Your post on the yin yang is very fitting i think, thanks.


I am looking forward to how this all unfolds.


Walter

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed May 15 00:18:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Leadership
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 12:18:34 GMT

Marie, Dan and all,

> Thank you for clarifying your intent in posting the message from the
> research group; I was having a difficult time understanding the reason you
> brought it here, and looking for a hidden message that wasn't there.  You wrote:
>
> <<I don't think I have a hidden desire for this group to go one way or
> another -- even the Psybernet project, at the moment learning what it is
> like to have two lists on the go, and experiencing that is enough.>>

On reflection my not so hidden desire is for Psyber-L to be inclusive,
and yet within the sphere described for the list. It may be easy for
some people to get the idea that because their language, style,
culture, flavour is not reflected in any one current discussion that
this list is not for them, and that may not be true.

>From my experience in groups, the transformation occurs when someone
who has felt isolated or even alienated finds a way to integrate in
the life of the group.   Maybe the same can happen here?  I am curious
now, not about the lurkers (remember our interest in them?)  but the
participants who we have not heard from for a while.

> <<I love this list!>>
>
> Me, too!  And I am enjoying this dance ...

Yes, and so as the facilitator I think:  What has happened to the
dances  around the other fires?  I am looking up and curious as to
what else is going on, and what might be hidden, in those areas that
do not come so naturally to me.

I had a discussion with Dan, my friend here in Christchurch, who is on
the list (Hi Dan, I know you are to busy to read this list, in full,
but I know you appreciate its existence. )  Dan works in a computer
company and helps people set up on-line training and intranets etc.
These projects sometimes include training people in the use of email,
and Dan posted on that topic a while back.  I have many Psybernettic
discussions with Dan as we go rock climbing together.  Clearly the
business world traditionally does not relate well to our work here
that is meditatively attentive to the psyche and vice versa. Our
cultures have a different bottom line, Dan and I do not.  What I learn
here I often pass onto Dan, and vice versa, I think there is a useful
interchange, of mutual interest.

Dan.  Here is an invitation.  Next time you have a question about
something about how people can best relate to people via this medium
in a certain context.  Post it up.

Lets see what happens.  Both to your question, and to my unusual
combination of rl and cyberspace facilitation!   All of this is part
of the experiment, our research!


Walter.

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Wed May 15 00:18:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: context
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 12:18:43 GMT

Marie,

> IMO, full egalitarian participation in the creation of knowledge
> is a necessary prerequisite for the generation of meaningful insight

. . .

> Comments, anybody?  Wilbur?

I think this is especially true of the study of people.  It is not
only the ethical problem, of say studying behaviour and experience of
others, but people are like the atoms that change when they are
observed, the researcher's presence changes everything, and there are
some things they will never see.

Psyber-L is a forum for experiential exploration, as mentioned in the
list description.  My roots in this approach are in psychodrama -- and
I would recommend J. L. Moreno's book:  Sociometry, Experimental
Method and the Science of Society.  An Approach to a New Political
Orientation.  Beacon House, Inc. Beacon New York.  1951.  He self
published, and it is a little clumsy, the main tradition is oral, but
this book is rich and speaks directly to many of the issues raised in
your post Marie.  A strange thing happens, because he advocated a here
and now experiential approach, reflective development of the meta
theory came to a halt, and he is no-longer in the "literature".

He is an advocate of developing a consciousness of the process,
initially in small groups, with "maximum voluntary participation".


Walter

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From judithb@sbc1.com Wed May 15 00:22:14 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: human investigation
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 12:22:14 GMT

Marie, Wilbur if I may interject
<
<<Individual effort generates insight, which is shared with others.>>

Yes, like we both are doing now.

<<I'm here for the same quest in the exploration of self and the nature of
humanity, but my context is quite different from your's and Walters.>>

Diversity ... what would we learn if we all thought the same?

Marie>
The scientific positivism which has been the basis of *official* knowledge
creation has been shifting at the fringes. Willis Harman, Preisdent of the
Institute of Noetic Sciences is a loud voice for expanding the scientific
model of knowledge creation to include context and other modes of knowing
beyond seeing is believing. In listening to both of you articulate your
samenessdifferences it occurs to me that each of you have developed your
personal knowledge creation process which I think is exactly the point of the
shift we are making. It begins to validate self as a creator of knowledge,
and self as expert which is a shift from expert, meaning knowlege create
particularly in the academic tradition.

In my PhD program at the California Institute of Integral Studies alternative
methods of research are embraced, one of which is collaborative research
where a group of people explore together, researching the agreed upon area.
The knowings which are surfacing are indeed contextual, personal, and
collabortive where insights are gained from the interconnectiveness of the
participants. From comments of participants, there is profound validation of
each person's context within the larger group context.

In a way your dialogue, Marie and Wilbur, models this research methodology.

I know that I have my method of creating knowledge within my assumptive base
and continually test these assumptions. Thirty years ago if Ihad spoken of
the stream of guidance which I receive I would have been thot to be sick.
However, I didn't care to determine the source of the data I received, just
sought to explore my relationship to it and tested it in my own contextual
framework. After all these years I have come to trust the knowledge and act
on it. Lately I have reluctantly voiced the guidance in the small group that
has assembled. Each person takes the information and makes her own decision,
testing for validity in her life. In most circles this would be a radical
form of knowledge creation and I don't hold it as *truth* just information
which is given and can be tested from one's own personal path. And I continue
to hold a healthy degree of skepticism. However, I have personally gained
immeasureably, not the least of which was to shift the validatin process from
external to a dynamic process of externalinternal which I hear you both using
in your own individual ways.

judith


--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Wed May 15 00:24:48 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: context
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 12:24:48 GMT

Thanks Walter for the book notation
<
He is an advocate of developing a consciousness of the process,
initially in small groups, with "maximum voluntary participation".


Walter>
As I said, there is an *official* research methodology being explored at CIIS
which seems to resonate to this.
I'll see if I can get the book.
Thanks,
Judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From hoon@APK.NET Wed May 15 03:59:27 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: human investigation
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 11:59:27 -0400

My own heady $.02 is:

(1) Knowledge is socially constructed whether it is based on generalization
(i.e. if A is empirically valid, B is likely,) or built from premise,
inference, and deductive, 'predicate' arguement.

(2) Knowledge is limited in both domains by obvious and subtle barriers.

(3) Problems and conundrums of self-reference (reflexivity) are evident in
all knowledge-making.

***

There is an aphorism that exactingly expresses my caveat about "truth".

What is essential is not important.
What is important is not essential.

So what is essential? To you?

Where do you look for the answers?

Are we able to invalidate both the *what* and the *how* for persons other
than ourselves?

***

I wonder if one can look outside without an interior referent and whether
one can look inside without an exterior referent?

Or: can there exist a pristine deductive logic?

***

relatively,

Stephen

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From hoon@APK.NET Wed May 15 04:12:47 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: human investigation
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@APK.NET>
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 12:12:47 -0400

The expansion of feminine awareness, as a vital aspect of (all) human being
and becoming, is, IMO, not about knowledge-making or masculine vs feminine
modes of knowing...it is about 'compensatory individuation'. More beauty,
more goodness, much less "truth". More heart, less head.

But lived as an experiential process; interior, expansive, less attached,
but activated throughout our 'behavior'.

But "truth" funded by logic or generalization doesn't interest *me* as much
as Truth funded by real goodness.

(My faith also is placed in this belief of mine in hopes that we homo
sapiens sapiens might evolve into an ethical, selfless, animal. But, I've
always been a dreamer and an optimist.)

***

(The most glorious aspect of psyber-L in the past two months is the influx
of beauty and goodness here. I don't know of anyplace in Cyberspace like
it.)

In gratitude,
Stephen

***

"Grow those orbits". (Rilke, cheapened.)

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Wed May 15 14:42:14 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Leadership
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 20:42:14 -0600

Walter and Friends in Psyberia,

        In response to the *disappearance* of voices from the active
dialogue, I want to bring a bit of myself to the fore here.  I have not
withdrawn to become a lurker.  Like others (this is pure supposition) I have
taken a few moments (time is relative) to reflect and *listen* to the ebb
and flow of other voices.  With a corresponding silence on this list has
been an establishment of my voice on the *Dream Game* list.  And, to be
noted, there is a life in the f2f environment that demands much of my
presence, a presence often in conflict with my intention to maintain a
presence here in Pysberia.

        Walter, you talk of intentions:

>On reflection my not so hidden desire is for Psyber-L to be inclusive,
>and yet within the sphere described for the list. It may be easy for
>some people to get the idea that because their language, style,
>culture, flavour is not reflected in any one current discussion that
>this list is not for them, and that may not be true.

        Perhaps this is reason enough for some to retreat to silence, but
from the words that I've heard in the dialogues here, I think that other
factors find a role to play.  I do admit that I too miss certain voices such
as Mila's, Jurek's, Lauren's, Stephen Hoath's, Kyra's, and Susan's (I know
that I have left out some and have unintentionally diminished them in esteem
... my memory is deplorable).

>Yes, and so as the facilitator I think:  What has happened to the
>dances  around the other fires?  I am looking up and curious as to
>what else is going on, and what might be hidden, in those areas that
>do not come so naturally to me.

        This, I think, is part of the work of the list in its efforts to
divine the mystery of listserv psychology, the quest to see/hear/understand
the dances around fires now off-list which had their birht on-list.  I doubt
that all is silent.  How many have spend moments discussing this place
called Psyber-L and its citizens off-list with other list citizens?

>Dan.  Here is an invitation.  Next time you have a question about
>something about how people can best relate to people via this medium
>in a certain context.  Post it up.

        This invitation to Dan is extended to all those whose voices are now
silent here, voices needing to be heard.

Robert

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Wed May 15 20:55:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Midwives
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 04:55:38 EDT

Susan
You wrote:

> I foundan interesting terminology difference between the description here (in
the US)
>of what obstetricians do ("deliver") and what midwives do ("catch"). What a
>world of difference in those terms!

Looking from position of observer: midwives "catching" is more real that doctors
"delivering". Obviously doctors "took over" from women and midwives in America.
Women delivers -  "giving the birth". Doctor are more an "gatekeeper".

Jurek (Midwife husband).

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Thu May 16 06:53:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: more on midwives
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:53:46 -0500

Jurek--I definitely agree with you that "Catching" is a more real term in
relation to the birthing process. As a male dominated realm of physicians
developed in the US, midwives have gotten a hard way to go, with incredible
pressure against them from the AMA. My daughter was born at home, caught by our
marvelous CNM (certified nurse midwife). My then-husband was dead set against
this to start (he saw it as the most bizarre of my bizarre ideas to date),
until I insisted he read the research which demonstrates pretty clearly that
this was the safest option for most births. I was dead set about going into a
setting (hospital) where I knew the motive was control and intervention (to
"save" me and my child from the most natural of processes!!). This ties in
tightly for me with the earlier thread here on gender and helps me see why the
control/submit terms related to male and female orientations so grated on me. I
see the control issue almost always associated in U.S. culture as being a
dominating, power-over model and while some see this "tooth-and-nail" model as
being the instrument of civilization/progress, I just don't buy that. There are
even some works coming out in the sciences suggesting that the murderous
interpretations of "survival of the fittest" may be more a reflection of
cultural preferences for violence than an actual representation of the ways
things work. (I'll have to scout about to see if I can find the source for
that.) I really suspect that the cooperative, power-with models may be far more
responsible for what has occured, but this may require stepping back to see
nature as unitary rather than made up of discrete elements in competition. My
original question posed related to this had to do with how we construct gender
in psyberspace and I'm still trying to make sense of this here. I think we have
the potential, if it is true that we bring to each life a core which is task or
relational in nature (I'm avoiding saying masculine or feminine here since I
think that terminology is heavily cultural and carries with it too much
baggage), to develop the best of both of these without the negatives of
domination/submission taking center stage. The task driven by sheer control
seems to lead to verbal/physical aggressiveness; tempered by the relational,
flaming gets damped into passion without domination. The relational driven by
sheer submission becomes the victim of verbal/physical aggressiveness; tempered
by the task, the victim gains integrity and depth. This Psyberspace that we are
creating here seems to do this better than I've ever seen--as someone (Marie, I
think, or Anita) said, the men here seem to demonstrate a relational side with
out losing strength and the women seem to demonstrate an intellectual, task
side with grace and passion. When there is conflict, it gets brought up for
discussion (overtly or covertly) with a goal of understanding rather than
eliminating the opposition. When there is ambiguity, it is especially
interesting. I too thought that Tama was female--perhaps given that the
ambiguity created a tension between (a) a male demonstrating a poetic,
passionate, and vulnerable side, processing his relationship with Kate
and (b) a female demonstrating a poetic, passionate, and vulnerable side,
processing her relationship with Kate (and hence being enthymematically induced
to be lesbian)  and given that neither a nor b are considered widely accepted
in larger society, the choice of b (female, lesbian) seemed more reasonable.
Now I suppose this interpretation may reflect my current disatisfaction with
the male species (not an insult, gentleman, just building context here), but it
does give some insight into at least one person's processing of these cues .
        Susan
and vulnerable

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From CRandow@CHCH.COMPUTERLAND.CO.NZ Fri May 17 18:56:04 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re[2]: Leadership
From: CHC-Dan Randow <CRandow@CHCH.COMPUTERLAND.CO.NZ>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 01:56:04 -0500

     Hi Psyber-L people

     I can not resist at least responding to such an invitation

     >my not so hidden desire is for Psyber-L to be inclusive, and
     >yet within the sphere described for the list

     and when it's put so invitingly

     This speaks to my very conflict about psybernet and indeed
     psyberspace in its entirety - filtering what I want from
     infinity of information can ultimately only be done thru the
     realtionships I get involved in. We've all discussed this at
     length. It's the old question - which community is for me? Where
     do I fit?

     >the participants who we have not heard from for a while.

     That's me.

     >(Hi Dan, I know you are to busy to read this list, in full, but
     I know you appreciate its existence. )

     Hi Walter :-). I do read snippets and maintain a feel for what's
     here and very much appreciate its[/your][/our] existence.

     >Dan works in a computer company and helps people set up on-line
     >training and intranets etc.

     Yes, I do. It's lots of fun! Imagine setting up an on-line
     training environment! I'm working on my first one, actually.

     >Clearly the business world traditionally does not relate well
     to our work here that is meditatively attentive to the psyche
     and vice versa.

     That's true!

     >Our cultures have a different bottom line, Dan and I do not.

     Yes, I like that but you know, Walter the challenge that
presents to me in developing my career here. Also the opportunities.

>Here is an invitation.  Next time you have a question about
something about how people can best relate to people via this medium
in a certain context.  Post it up.

Lets see what happens.  Both to your question, and to my unusual
combination of rl and cyberspace facilitation!

>All of this is part of the experiment, our research!

And who could take issue with that? Yes, let's see. But the thing is,
my issues are so mundane - finding enough hours in the day, climbing
precipitous learning curves. The time will soon come, tho when I have
precipitated the birth of an on-line learning community of some 600
people. Maybe then, we'll have some things to talk about.


Dan

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sat May 18 04:07:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Movie Metaphor
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:07:42 EDT

.
Susan
You wrote:
>In thinking about the movie metaphor, I don't have a suggestion formulated yet,
>but agree with Barbara that Blade Runner is more dark and constricting than
>would capture my experience with the folks in psyber-links. I haven't seen the
>movie yet, but the title "the Unbearable Lightness of Being" strikes me as more
>to the core

Sorry to bring issue back which lost its actuality 12 days ago. I saw "Blade
Runner"
yesterday (director cut) and "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" for second time
few days ago. I need a hint from You where to look for connection between
Psyberspace and the ULB - movie metaphor.
I have been at Czechoslovaks border - walking in the polish-czech  mountains on
the day of invasion listening at my radio Czechs shouting in russian:" Do not
kill us !!!". Could be I am to much trapped by the movies plot and first when
writing this mail can see creation of the world on its own by the main
characters  . The world  in opposition to one as created by official politics of
russian occupation.

Decker the hero of BR is a replicant hunter (replicant=humanoid robot).
Distinguishing between real and not real is "his business".  He falls in love
with an replicant girl and happily leaves with here to live in the better world
(that in public released version).
That IMHO another story about entanglement  (n'est pas Robert et Marie :) ).


Jurek

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sat May 18 05:37:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Childbirth, Men and their organs
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:37:17 +0100

Dear all,

I've been away amongst a few other things which has meant that although I
have been lurking I havent been posting.
I read with interest the different threads re gender and childbirth. ( I
think catching is a wonderfully descriptive term -its certainly not used in
England.)

I am not a great one for natural childbirth, I view it with the same unease
I would in going to the dentist and asking for a natural root canal. I had
every type of pain relief going while in labor with my daughter and I can
honestly say that I didnt feel a thing. I didnt want to feel a thing.

Yet, I feel cheated, as if I missed something precious in not having seen
the first few moments of my daughters life..actually I didnt see the first
few hours. I didnt get to hold her, to see her take her first look at the
world. I had a caesarean by epidural, and they whisked her away from me, and
stuck her in intensive care. I saw her for maybe a second and when they
finished sewing me back together they stuck me in a ward full of mothers
with their babies. Medical insensitivity at its greatest.

All I wanted was my baby, and all I thought she wanted was me. I felt so
lonely, as though part of me was missing, and the cries of the babies in the
ward sent great stabs of anguish through me.
What is it I missed Susan? Sometimes, much as I love her I feel she was
never part of me. Never inside me, which of course is ridiculous because she
left her mark in more ways than one. I think I missed something very
precious, and I dont know what it is.
I didnt have much choice in the way my pregnancy was handled..because I am
diabetic and it was disgustingly high tech. The same with the birth..it was
all out of my hands..I had fight every inch of the way against established
protocol..because one diabetic is treated the same as another and the
individual is never considered.

Anyway I digress..on the subject of men, and gender a year or so on the irc
has taught me two things about them.

First.. only a thin veneer of civilisation seperates a man from total and
constant communion with his penis. This has been a minor
revelation..basically men lose all sense of reason and rationalisation when
the lure of sex beckons. You only have to wander onto some of the sex
channels to see how motivated they are by the needs of their groins.
I vaguely remember a quote from Othello about men being led through their
noses in the same way as bulls or donkeys... I think that Shakespeare got
that wrong and should have repositioned the ring a little lower for a truly
accurate assesment.

Secondly.. I feel sorry for men. Now I have seen them as they truly are, as
emotional and expressive as women, I pity them the testosterone induced
machismo that means that in the outside world they are forced to conceal
these traits. I have noticed that men I have spoken to on the irc, converse
completely differently alone with me in private chat, than when in a group.
(no great revelation there). What surprised me however is the depths of
emotion that men have displayed. In some ways this was a side to men I had
rarely glimpsed until getting on the net.

I cant think how we as women go wrong, since we are the main influences
bringing up our sons during their most impressionable years.  I saw a very
interesting experiment where two very young babies were dressed up the boy
in pink and the girl in blue. The women reacted completely differently to
the children according to the gender they imagined each child to be. They
were shocked when when the videotape of their interactions with the
different children was played back. They hadnt realised the extent to which
they were conditioned to react and treat the babies differently because of
their sex.

So it seems that its not just too many reruns of the A team. Its the way we
as mothers bring up our children. Why is that? I think I am going to go out
and buy my daughter a firemans uniform and a toy truck. I want to teach her
to be a woman, and I want her to know that that doesnt mean she is any way
inferior to a man.
I want her to revel in her femininity not to be ashamed of it. I think that
probably like the class system, the americans are way ahead on issues of
equality than we are in England.

Mostly it saddens me to think that men can never truly be themselves within
our society. Its as if they always have to conform to the roles that they
have placed on themselves through the ages, yet for some reason really dont
want to adopt. I think men would like in all honesty to be more like women,
though they probably wouldnt want to admit it in front of other men. Men
have a fundamental need to be used that just isnt being catered for, because
the norm is that they are the users.  They have a need to feel needed that I
hadnt suspected before, and a need to be in touch with their emotional
sides.  Course I could be wrong, and this is a lot of generalisation,  but
these are the impressions I gained. I think irc is a medium that teaches men
to get in touch with their emotional side and to display it more readily.

The women on this list are in my opinion truly remarkable. They are sure of
who they are, they arent afraid to express whats truly going on in their
hearts, and heads, and they express it beautifully. They are confident and
self assured, and they enjoy being women.  It makes me really proud to be a she.
I dont think I'd like to be a man, given the choice,  which I wasnt.  I
certainly couldn't put up with all the posturing, and I certainly couldnt
put up with shaving every day. Doing my legs once a week is bad enough.
Course there are some advantages..you can take your shirt off in the summer
and you dont have to hack away at your armpits with a razor on a regular basis.

I suspect I have annoyed every male on the list..still it'll give Walter
something to get his teeth into.

Laurel/Dolores

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sun May 19 03:33:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Midwives.. and survival of the FIT.
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 11:33:23 EDT

 Susan write:

>There are even some works coming out in the sciences suggesting that the
murderous
>interpretations of "survival of the fittest" may be more a reflection of
>cultural preferences for violence than an actual representation of the ways
>things work. (I'll have to scout about to see if I can find the source for
>that.) I really suspect that the cooperative, power-with models may be far more
>responsible for what has occurred, but this may require stepping back to see
>nature as unitary rather than made up of discrete elements in competition.

Humberto Maturana, Chilean biologist and father of the  autopoiese (selv
reference of living systems) propose the concept "survival of the fit" - an
efficient relation - as a main mechanism og evolution. He claims also that until
7000 years ago it was not any sign of war or fighting.
The war arrive when our ancestors started to assemble the hordes of animals -
early domestication -  and protected them against all kind of "wolfs".
Susan, your striving and achievements in search for meaningful live in your
family, confrontation with traditional view in world of US medicine or at
University are for me examples of survival of the fit. Fit between your ideas,
emotions, actions, your daughter, your partners, University departement,
etc.....
Respectfully Jurek

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sun May 19 03:33:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Leadership
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 11:33:28 EDT

>Walter:
>Yes, and so as the facilitator I think:  What has happened to the
>dances  around the other fires?  I am looking up and curious as to
>what else is going on, and what might be hidden, in those areas that
>do not come so naturally to me.
>Robert:
 >do admit that I too miss certain voices such
>as Mila's, Jurek's, Lauren's, Stephen Hoath's, Kyra's, and Susan's (I know
>that I have left out some and have unintentionally diminished them in esteem
>... my memory is deplorable).

The day has 24 hours and when some of them are spent in the world where we can
touch each other then it is not enough time to use it for interaction in
Psyber-Cyber- Space.  For an non English native speaker (observe speaker) not an
writer it is very challenging to justify own  contribution in on going dialogue
in such an eloquent collegium as created by Marie, Robert, Walter, Susan to name
a few. BTW just because medium is different the habits of participation are not
necessary different. In any gathering that are som number, my own observation
tells me that between 5-10%, that are participating regularly when other are the
followers.
So thanks for asking. I will always say something when it is IMHO chance of
making difference. Carefully listening Jurek

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Sun May 19 03:33:32 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Human investigation...context
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 11:33:32 EDT

Dear Marie and Wilbur and Psyberians

I would like to add some observation to exchange of thought you had concerning
research and
scientific methods.
It stroke me that you differentiate (Marie) between quantitative and qualitative
research but not between natural science and research in humanistic disciplines.
>From cybernetic point of view
the natural science approach is represented in first degree cybernetic.
Observing system form outside - system behaviour is a chain of casual events. In
humanistic science observer can not exclude himself from observing system - he
is a part of it and therefore we have to do with second order cybernetical
approach.
Wilbur - if You refer to Einsteins specific relativity theory so as far as I
remember history his achievement was not calculus but interpretation of so
called Lorentz transformation. He assumed that velocity of light is constant and
time scale are different for objects moving at different speed
opposite to previous interpretations. My point here is about assumption as an
important move. Setting of context then as more important difference as an
change within a system.
Talking about physics I would like to point that all of us who been awakened
during school remember notion of "force". This is very us full concept. Never or
less nobody have seen it. You can only see the effects of action of "forces".
You can even represent it mathematically by vector calculus. That still will not
make it visible. And now - moving to realm of psychology. Nobody have "seen"
subconscience or anima etc. Those models can be us full or not - depending on
effects  their application leads us to. Those models create context in which our
thoughts are trapped. Awerness of that can free os from falling in love with
less effective models.
Jurek

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Sun May 19 07:49:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Childbirth, Men and their organs
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 20:49:59 +0100

Laurel, I'm intrigued;

I dont normally have time to read all the messages here let alone make
full critical replies, but this time I'm going to.

No kidding, I think you're involved in one of my synchronicities - I've just been
writing up my treatise on how we men can express our feminine emotions and
balance our energies without losing face or friends, and without feeling that
we're doing something wrong.

The writeup's unfinished , being in part an allegorical story, but I was
so fascinated in reading your article here and finding my own thoughts that
I cant resist asking you to look at it.

First though, let me respond to your very interesting points:

1. Insensitivity
>
> I am not a great one for natural childbirth, I view it with the same unease
> I would in going to the dentist and asking for a natural root canal. I had
> every type of pain relief going while in labor with my daughter and I can
> honestly say that I didnt feel a thing. I didnt want to feel a thing.
>
> Yet, I feel cheated, as if I missed something precious in not having seen
> the first few moments of my daughters life..actually I didnt see the first
> few hours. I didnt get to hold her, to see her take her first look at the
> world. I had a caesarean by epidural, and they whisked her away from me, and
> stuck her in intensive care. I saw her for maybe a second and when they
> finished sewing me back together they stuck me in a ward full of mothers
> with their babies. Medical insensitivity at its greatest.

I'm glad you didnt feel any pain - though the medical insensitivity you mention
greatly takes it's toll on mothers, children and many other people in my
experience. I've been fascinated recently to read transcripts and reports of
hypnotic regressions where time and again the cause of a disease, the initial
sensitising event or ISE has turned out to be some insensitive treatment in
early childhood - some needless event which the perpetrators are rarely aware
of but which has devastating consequences for the child.

Steve Parkhill relates in 'Answer Cancer' how many problems which manifest in
adulthood are identified under regression as having ISEs which occured in infancy
or even in the womb; The child's subconscious mind hears AND UNDERSTANDS every
word. At childbirth, having the mother awake and able to tell the child she loves
him or her, and not to be afraid is not just a desirable thing, it can have
a crucial bearing on the child's health and happiness.

The good news if you werent able to do that with your own child is that it's
easy to make it better and reverse any negative experiences which have been
planted in your child's mind from birth / early hospital environment - if you
are an otherwise kind, loving person [which is the impression I get from your
posts] then that love will quickly overwhelm any negative ISE. It's only when
an initial traumatic experience is compounded by subsequent sensitising events
and the child's negative self-image is reinforced that problems and disease
can occur.


> All I wanted was my baby, and all I thought she wanted was me. I felt so
> lonely, as though part of me was missing, and the cries of the babies in the
> ward sent great stabs of anguish through me.
> What is it I missed Susan? Sometimes, much as I love her I feel she was
> never part of me. Never inside me, which of course is ridiculous because she
> left her mark in more ways than one. I think I missed something very
> precious, and I dont know what it is.

Perhaps you need to tell her subconscious mind that you love her - if she
missed that at the birth, there's no reason why you cant make up for it now.
I'm only guessing, but the solution and the best thing you can do whatever
IMO is to hold her, hug her and tell her you love her so much again and again.
Louise Hay's 'You can heal your life' explains this far better than I can.


> I didnt have much choice in the way my pregnancy was handled..because I am
> diabetic and it was disgustingly high tech. The same with the birth..it was
> all out of my hands..I had fight every inch of the way against established
> protocol..because one diabetic is treated the same as another and the
> individual is never considered.

Yes, that too saddens me. I believe it is entirely deliberate on the part of
the high-level decision makers in the medicial, scientific and academic
establishments that love, kindness and healing energy are left out of the
very areas where they are needed most to prevent negative ISEs and SSEs;
birth, school and hospitals have a strong effect on our subconscious minds, and
they can hurt us badly if love is left out of the equation. When you try to change
things and make enough of a fuss to be heard though, you begin to realise that
the current insensitivity and caloussness in these areas is not an accident,
but calculated design on the part of those who would like to keep us confused,
ill and not causing any trouble - i.e. telling people that it is love that heals.

2. Men


Let me respond to your comments on men too:
>
> Anyway I digress..on the subject of men, and gender a year or so on the irc
> has taught me two things about them.
>
> First.. only a thin veneer of civilisation seperates a man from total and
> constant communion with his penis.

Hey come on, *major* generalisation or what.... :-) That said, we do tend to be
influenced greatly in most areas of our life by how we are doing in the romantic
stakes. I believe though that it is *not* in fact sex or even the sexual instinct
which turns us into rampant beasts on IRC or other areas, but rather something
more subtle which I term 'romantic quality'.

[Robert Pirsig speaks of quality in his superb book 'Lila' and discusses how
biological quality, social quality, intellectual quality and dynamic quality
influence us - he does not however discuss how it affects the subconscious mind
and how it can be influenced under hypnosis. My thesis is that romantic quality,
that subset of quality which is to do with how our subconscious minds believe
we are doing in the romantic stakes, has a more overriding effect on our
immune systems, our energy level, our health and happiness than anything else.
By convincing myself under deep hypnosis that I am deeply in love with my ideal
girlfriend, permanently, deeply, truly, warmly, wonderfully, beautifully and
overwhelmingly in love with her and that it is completely reciprocated, eternal,
safe and secure and the best possible relationship I could ever dream for, I felt
an energy of such incredibly power boost my immune system, heal my mind and body
and put me into what I term my 'optimum health state'. The crucial point I want
to make here is that it it doesnt *have* to be sex that does it; it's the feeling of
being deeply, securely in love, and the subconscious mind's perception of 'romantic
quality' which does it for me. ]


This has been a minor
> revelation..basically men lose all sense of reason and rationalisation when
> the lure of sex beckons. You only have to wander onto some of the sex
> channels to see how motivated they are by the needs of their groins.
> I vaguely remember a quote from Othello about men being led through their
> noses in the same way as bulls or donkeys... I think that Shakespeare got
> that wrong and should have repositioned the ring a little lower for a truly
> accurate assesment.

Now I do agree with you here , but again I think it's romantic quality rather
than sex which calls us. I myself made a complete and total fool of myself with
a girl about a year-and-a-half ago, and looking back at it and the diary notes
I took I find it hard to believe how I rationalised my thoughts and actions at
the time and didnt see that I had gone haywire over her. But we dont you see-
we believe that no matter how outrageous our rationalisations for going after
a particular woman in however blatant and blunt a way will look to the woman
concerned and to anyone else who takes an objective view of it, that we are
doing the right thing and that we are justified in using any means at our
disposal to 'get the girl'. Often this means lying, conning and duping said woman
into going out with us.


3. Ross Jeffries


A correspondent of mine on the net was the 'great satan' himself, Ross Jeffries.
Ross uses NLP and hypnotic tricks and techniques to get women into bed - he
doesnt make any excuses, and whilst he is rude, boorish and shameless in his
advertising, flaming and other reprehensible strategies the fact remains that
his techniques work well - extremely well.

It is my opinion that people like Ross can only get lots of women into bed through
manipulating them and lying to them because at some level - usually subconsciously -
these women want and attract someone like Ross. Instead of wanting someone who is
interested in loving her for her mind, her personality and her soul as well as her
body, often women will disregard, disrespect and reject guys like that and go for
'the jerk'. Whilst I dont agree with Ross's methods and would not use them myself,
some of his claims bear repeating:

- Nice Guys dont get fed
- 90% of the time a woman will test you by the second date to see if you'll take
her bul****. If you do, relationship over.
- 'Just being yourself' doesnt work. Whereas a nice guy will be honest and
shoot himself in the foot, the jerk analyses every action he can take and works
out if it will increase or decrease his standing with the woman. If it wont
increase his standing, the jerk doesnt do it.
- women attract people like Ross because *subconsciously*, that's what they
want: their energy patterns match. That's why battered women keep going back for
more until they remove their own manipulations and wounds which are causing the
fatal attraction - the ones on the inside.

I felt that Ross's ideas had a lot of scope for helping people release themselves
from their own manipulations without seducing or degrading anyone and asked him
to help me research this, but he wasnt interested. I've written a couple of
articles entitled 'Jeffries ideas for nice people' I & II, which explore this.

All the above said, I am glad to say that I dont think men need to or should
use Jeffries' ideas or similar to 'get laid'; If we men work through and release
our own manipulations and the subconscious baggage we carry around with us, then
we find that we want a woman for herself, for her loving affection and her deep
appreciation of a man who is worthy of her own powerful, loving kindness.


4. Balanced energies, Balanced people

In the same way as manipulative men and women attract and symbiotically create
each other, people who have achieved the balance between male and female
energies, emotions and feelings attract and support each other.

That kind of man doesnt fit into your generalisation, but I accept that my
own sweeping claims dont include all women either. It is my conviction that we
can all of us shine like stars if we throw away the limiting beliefs we have
picked up - and when a balanced woman shines with a balanced man, the world
reverberates to the power of their love. Not a selfish love, but the kind
of love we have for our children; not a love which says 'I love you if I fancy
you darling', but an unconditional love which is given freely and without
limit. This is the kind of love I feel myself under hypnosis and which I use
to try and heal people and the planet; It's a wonderful, wonderful feeling.

[and I believe we are all both male and female
by the way, and have all incarnated into male and female bodies countless times
over the centuries - that makes sexism seem pretty silly when you realise it,
doesnt it! :-) This realisation helps we men to set ourselves free from the
'boys dont cry' programming and realise that the feminine emotions and energy
are what this world so desperately needs at the moment. We can set ourselves
free from the conditioning Laurel, but we need the help of you women to do it:
we need a hand up, not a kick in the face from you women whom we have admittedly
treated atrociously and suppressed for many, many centuries, something which it
we can understand when women find it hard to do. The good news is that finally
we are coming out of our shells, and although you have all the reason in the
world not to trust us and to withhold your forgiveness from us for all the
suppression and oppression we've put you through, this time it's safe for you
to let go of your anger and give us your love, your affection and the hug
we so desperately need. The proof of that's in several places now -
it's in Steve Parkhill's 'Answer Cancer', James Redfield's 'The Celestine Prophecy'
and 'The Tenth Insight', and it's in Louise Hay's 'You can heal your life'.
But more than any of these, it's in your memory and it's in your soul. The time
has finally come for us all, men and women both, to bury the hatchett, drop
our respective control dramas and give each other one big, warm , friendly hug,
without the need for sex in the process. ]

>
> Secondly.. I feel sorry for men. Now I have seen them as they truly are, as
> emotional and expressive as women, I pity them the testosterone induced
> machismo that means that in the outside world they are forced to conceal
> these traits. I have noticed that men I have spoken to on the irc, converse
> completely differently alone with me in private chat, than when in a group.
> (no great revelation there). What surprised me however is the depths of
> emotion that men have displayed. In some ways this was a side to men I had
> rarely glimpsed until getting on the net.

Indeed, the concealment and repression of these feelings causes much anguish
and hurt for us. Finally able to express my own such feelings and knowing that
it's safe, acceptable to me and to the people I care about and to the woman
I love to do so, I feel the love aching, flowing through me. Instead of putting
the brakes on when I feel such thoughts now, I let my subconscious mind accept
them, enhance them and nurture them as the waves of energy flow through me.
It has only been very recently that I have been able to do this though; In April
I attended an evening hosted by the British author David Icke in Glasgow, thinking
it would be a series of talks and discussions about the material in his book.
 In fact David said very little during the whole evening, and we spend the evening
 first with a healing session to some hauntingly pleasant music
 [Chris de Burgh, Elton John etc. actually]. Sitting there with David and nine
 other people's hands laid on me I felt such an incredible feeling of lightness.
 Playing positive music, some dancing and some hugging all round was the
 main purpose of the evening, not an afterthought; and at the end of it something
 had changed in me. Up until now I have felt embarassed and guilty about discussing
 my 'feminine' emotions, thinking my friends would shun me and that people would
 think I had 'gone soft'. Now, I welcome the emotions since I know how badly I need
 them and that they are lovely, positive thoughts and that is *safe* for me to
 have kind, gentle, soft and loving thoughts. Affectionately gentle,
 enchantingly joyful, lovingly kind and beautifully sensitive thoughts. A month
 ago, I would have felt embarassed writing the above words: Now I feel good,
 happy and a wave of love at them since I know that they are good, positive and
 exactly what I, my friends and the planet so desperately need.

 The barriers which we all put up to each other - people of either sex - seem
 so senseless when viewed from the perspective of infinite love. I believe that
 we are all each other at the energy level, and that we can heal each other
 by laying on hands or even across great distances by projecting love at each other;
 It is this - the breaking down of the barriers to infinite love by both men
 and women - which will change the world and heal us, and once we experience that
 love nothing will persuade us to go back to our old ways of fear, doubt, guilt,
 resentment, criticism and the other manipulations which keep us in our mental
 prison.


5. Conditioning and Control Dramas

>
> I cant think how we as women go wrong, since we are the main influences
> bringing up our sons during their most impressionable years.

'The Celestine Prophecy' explains a lot about how we all go wrong in bringing
up our children, by encouraging them to copy our control dramas and manipulations.
Unfortunately we are bombarded with lies and distortions by the media and we
carry our own negative programming from our parents, our upbringings and our
own experiences. The answer I believe is that if we can heal ourselves, we can
then see cleary to help our children. If a parent is unconsciously teaching their
child to be manipulative but doesnt know themselves that they are doing that,
then they cant notice the problem and heal it. It's only by bringing our own
manipulations into conscious knowledge that we are able to face them, and then
to help other people - including our children- face their own.

The 'Boys will be boys', 'You're the man of the house our Dave', 'Boys dont cry',
'Do unto others before they do unto you' and the romantic involvement fairy tales
which we tell boys are by far the worst culprits IMO.

It's all very well for women to complain about men's actions and how they behave
but time and again with their own children they make the same mistakes -
e.g. 'I dont want MY boy becoming a cissy '
How many boys who are told that women and girls should be treated equally and
with respect will continue to do that when after several rejections they realise
that they are far more likely to 'get the girl' by being pretentious, arrogant
and violent than if they are honest and open with her about their feelings.

How many boys who display their feminine feelings at school and dont play the
'Macho' game will survive five minutes in the playground... and how many of
the girls will stand up and comfort them rather than egging on the bullies and
calling him a 'cissy'.

Women collectively will stop attracting manipulation when they stop giving it out,
and refuse to put up with manipulative, lying and violent men and rather give their
affections and support to those men who are honest, kind and gentle with them.
And men will stop getting fobbed off and made to act pretentiously and manipulatively
to 'get the girl' when they go for true spiritual love rather than a quick shag.


6. Equal expression
>
> So it seems that its not just too many reruns of the A team. Its the way we
> as mothers bring up our children. Why is that? I think I am going to go out
> and buy my daughter a firemans uniform and a toy truck. I want to teach her
> to be a woman, and I want her to know that that doesnt mean she is any way
> inferior to a man.

> I want her to revel in her femininity not to be ashamed of it. I think that
> probably like the class system, the americans are way ahead on issues of
> equality than we are in England.

Your ideas are noble enough, but in practice I fear you'll fall on your face
with this. Teaching women how to 'be the best man' just causes more agression
and manipulation in my experience. In fact, women can often be far more ruthless
and callous than men when in a position of power and able to abuse it. Being truly
free means men and women being able to act femininely or masculinely as they please
in whatever situations they please and without being persecuted and ridiculed for it;
Too often the supposed female equality programs result in women being allowed to
be the boss as long as they act like men. The minute they try and bring feminine
emotions and energies into the system, they're out.

Equality can too easily become 'equal opportunity to be masculine and agressive
and manipulative'. What we need is equal opportunity for all of us to be
whoever and however we want to be IMO.


>
> Mostly it saddens me to think that men can never truly be themselves within
> our society. Its as if they always have to conform to the roles that they
> have placed on themselves through the ages, yet for some reason really dont
> want to adopt.
 We can truly be ourselves, it's just that up until now it's been very hard since
 such honesty and self-expression is lethal to the system. If love, understanding
 and compassion break out in schools, hospitals , the workplace and academia then
 it's over for the good ol' boys who want to keep things the way they are, and they
 know it.

 The good news is that the double-bind of not being able to express yourself lest
 you lose your respect, your friends, your job, your girl and your livelihood
 has finally been answered - by Louise Hay, James Redfield and David Icke.
 We finally can be ourselves - and by heck it's about time.

I think men would like in all honesty to be more like women,
> though they probably wouldnt want to admit it in front of other men.

We're beginning to; I have several friends involved in my series of synchronicities
who are opening up and also realising that love, affection and compassion
and all the feminine emotions are exactly what we need to raise our energy,
heal ourselves and heal the world. Things really are changing, and fast.

Men
> have a fundamental need to be used that just isnt being catered for, because
> the norm is that they are the users.  They have a need to feel needed that I
> hadnt suspected before, and a need to be in touch with their emotional
> sides.  Course I could be wrong, and this is a lot of generalisation,

I'm quite sure you're right; That women like yourself are also realising this
and that it's perfectly natural and good for we men to feel like this is also
good IMO, because it lets us feel these emotions without fear of being jilted
for 'being a cissy'. We men need you women to change with us, and accept our
honesty and emotional expression rather than putting the boot in; I'm pleased
to see that you at least certainly seem to be capable of that.

but
> these are the impressions I gained. I think irc is a medium that teaches men
> to get in touch with their emotional side and to display it more readily.
> The women on this list are in my opinion truly remarkable.

Agreed; I was touched and impressed by Susan Swan's keen insights and would
have replied had I had time - I will once I have time to do them justice.
Your own postings intrigue me, and now they have well and truly pressed my
paradigm-buttons as you involve yourself in my synchronicity.


They are sure of
> who they are, they arent afraid to express whats truly going on in their
> hearts, and heads, and they express it beautifully. They are confident and
> self assured, and they enjoy being women.

Again agreed, and I much enjoy your expression. I will probably steal some
of your metaphors and imagery for my hypnosis sessions in fact! :-)


It makes me really proud to be a she.
> I dont think I'd like to be a man, given the choice,  which I wasnt.  I
> certainly couldn't put up with all the posturing, and I certainly couldnt
> put up with shaving every day. Doing my legs once a week is bad enough.
> Course there are some advantages..you can take your shirt off in the summer
> and you dont have to hack away at your armpits with a razor on a regular basis.

I think you'd make a damned good man actually :-) , if you managed to get balanced with
your feminine side. You've almost certainly been one too in a previous life IMO too.. :-)

>
> I suspect I have annoyed every male on the list..

Far from it I think... I was fascinated, and delighted with your penetrating
observations. Encore!

In closing Laurel, let me say the following:

1. I'll post my 'Boardroom Crisis' article here to let you see what I mean about
having been thinking about exactly what you've written about here; I think
you're involved in my main synchronicity actually, and would very much like
to discuss that with you.

The article's unfinished but I hope you'll find it interesting and enjoyable
anyway

2. The references for the books I mentioned are as follows:

Answer Cancer, Steve Parkhill : discusses ISEs / SSEs and how to heal childhood
hurts / diseases / lots of things.

You can heal your life, Louise L Hay: Incredible book. The woman who recommmended
it to me said 'I wouldnt want you to find out in a years time what this book could
have done for you - now go and buy it!' I could not agree with her more.

The Celestine Prophecy, James Redfield : Incredible book, shows how our control
dramas and manipulations can be worked through to allow spiritual love rather
than sexual love to flow through us and heal us, our friends and the world. Also
explains what synchronicity is and why it is happening to us.

- Experiential Guide, James Redfield and Carol Adriene

- The Tenth Insight, James Redfield. Only just read this, it's incredible too.

And the truth shall set you free, David Icke. David's book is explosive and
controversial, but the spiritual advice in the second part is without peer.
We create our own reality and attract people towards us based on the energy
and thought patterns we broadcast out into the world: by understanding this we
can heal not only ourselves, but the world and can realise why so many parts
of the system are the way they are to stop us from waking up and realising this.

Currently, David's book is available only from


UK:

PO Box 33
Ryde
Isle of Wight
England
PO 33 2NJ

US:

Sarah Benjamin Rhodes, 505-466-0887.


3. This is my pet interest Laurel, the focus of my central synchronicity and
[I am believing increasingly] my lifeplan and reason why I'm here. I've been
intrigued by this and your other articles, and would very much like to discuss
it with you further. In closing, I'd like to thank you for your own courage
in saying all this and to say that it has done a great deal of good - at least
for me.

My warm affection, immersing love and a virtual happy, caressing hug to you -

Not bad for a man, huh ? :-) :-)


---
We are the power in everyone
We are the dance of the moon and the sun
We are the hope that will never hide
We are the turning of the tide.

Steve Murray
Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Sun May 19 10:50:49 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: 'Boardroom Crisis' 1/2 (long)
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 23:50:49 +0100

'Boardroom Crisis'. 1/2

[This article is split into two parts, because of the length, for which
I apologise - it's an unfinished long article which I'm posting as an
addendum to my reply to Laurel: whilst writing up my central coincidence
which is described here, I was shocked to read Laurel's article talking about
all the same things: this is posted here mainly for Laurel's interest / information
but I hope that it will be interesting to everyone else too partly for that
content and also as an example of synchronicity in action.]

I .Intro


This article is unfinished, it is composed of a summary of the initial
 stages of my central synchronicity [names changed to protect the guilty]
 and my allegoricaldescription of how I maintain my happy, loving and feminine
thoughts in a male mind.

Having just written this and believing there to be nothing similar in any of the
things I have read recently, I was flabbergasted to read Laurel's comments on
exactly this stuff just after I had written it, and on the same material as my
central synchronicity.

I had been intending to post this when it was finished but I'm posting it now
as a supplement to my reply to Laurel's article 'Childbirth, Men and their
organs'.

I'd like to make it clear that this is a personal experience of my own and
obviouslymy opinions and beliefs surrounding it are far from objective -
I'm not proposing this article as a proof of anything.

That said, I hope people here will find it interesting both in it's own right
and also as related to Laurel's article and my reply.


2. Herewith, my central coincidence : 'Irish Girl with red hair'.

1. The book that first got me into hypnosis was written by Ronald
Baker; he's the only author I've read that's combined Tony Buzan's stuff with
hypnosis. I recently bought his 'Creative Visualisations' book too.
Anyway, Baker's book let me find out I could be hypnotised, and when I finally
used hypnosis I got down very deep.

2. After making a fool of myself with a girl and feeling dreadful about it I
realised that the normal hypnotic suggestions I was using to try and
unstress myself were simply not going to work, because the 'romantic quality'
which was depressing me and making me ill was far stronger.
I convinced my subconscious mind that it's deeply in love,
reciprocated, eternal, limitless, and this had a powerful effect on me
curing my of Irritable Bowel Syndrome and producing what I called my
'optimum health state'; I did this with the HELPER computer program, and
it was Baker's book which got me interested in hypnosis in the first place.

3. I didnt tell anyone until recently  that the real reason I dived
in and hypnotised the heck out of myself was that I  fool of
myself with a girl, and felt so bad afterwards that it wrecked my work and
health for weeks; I got so cheesed off with feeling awful for no good reason
and believing that I couldnt use the hypnosis to sort myself since my
Christian friends had told me it was 'wrong', that I dived in and convinced
my subconscious it was in love as an experiment.
When I woke up from the trance, I felt *wonderful* ; going from being
in a depressive rut to feeling on top of the world, after one hypnosis
session.

Whilst feeling particularly good one day I wrote out a summary of the
differences between my prior depressed state and the 'optimum health state'
I had entered; I had at the time been reading a book on SAD or Seasonal
Affective Disorder, and was flabbergasted to read a very similar description
[of the 'hypomania' stage of SAD] to my optimum health state.
I had just finally managed to feel good, happy and on top of the world and
here this book was describing my state as a disease, and recommending
tranquillisers!

Having well and truly spewed coffee forth from my mouth all over the book,
I set about nailing down in my own mind whether or not the 'optimum health
state' I had achieved was desirable or not. Never mind whether it's technically
this condition or that disease, just whether the individual symptoms were good
or bad.

I came to the conclusion that like anything else, it is the context in which we
do or feel particular actions and emotions, not the actual acts themselves,
which makes them good or bad. And that was how the SAD book had been able to
take my optimum health state- in my experience the best I have ever felt - and
label it as a disease requiring treatment; They simply took a very negative
outlook to begin with, and plugged the different symptoms of the optimum health
state into that, at each stage giving only the negative information and grossly
biasing the context in which they were analysing them - in effect, saying
'This is hypomania, it's a disease and therefore we must cure it. Now here are
the symptoms: so if you see someone with these they probably have hypomania
and since it is a disease we must cure it: here are the relevant drugs.'

The ambush is blatant: 'hypomania' is just a name which has been used to label
people as suffering from a disease. But these symptoms are *not* a disease,
they are what we should feel like all the time - happy, energetic, confidence,
assertive, healthy and able to cope. Rather than treat the individual symptoms
and put them in their proper context, and then examine how best to use them
for positive ends, people who are labelled as hypomanic are made to feel
guilty for feeling good and made to take drugs to suppress their 'hypomania'.

This misuse of words and labels in medicine and the ignoring of the [extremely
positive] benefits of each of the symptoms which 'hypomania' labels survives
only because not enough people are sure that the effects of the optimum health
state are good, that they are pronounced enough to be scientifically valid and
that they really are the same things which 'hypomania' labels, to say to the
doctors and scientists  : 'Hey - this *isnt* a disease, it's optimum health!
Now take those drugs away and find out how to enhance the good aspects of this
and discourage the bad.'

Not enough people go over the fine details of how they feel with a toothcomb
to realise that the effects of optimum health and the means by which we attain
it has been not just overlooked, but deliberately left out of medicine and
science - designedly, so that the manipulators who take the real decisions as
to what is researched can continue to depress us, to confuse us and to cheat us
out of our birthright - optimum health, spiritual love and a happy, wonderful
enjoyment of life - without us even knowing that we have had it stolen from us.

It has only been with hindsight and gradually that this realisation and the
write- up which I made of my optimum health state has become involved in a
series of coincidences or synchronicities - as they have progressed I have
realised that it is this - deep, true spiritual love and the means by which all
of us can attain it instantly, freely and without necessarily needing a partner
- which is the real focus and message of my series of coincidences and the
reason I am here - to tell this story and to spread the word.

I wrote a summary of my optimum health state, and a discussion of the
description of the hypomania stage of Seasonal Affective Disorder given by
Angela Smythe in her book on SAD:

[www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html]

3a I told myself under deep trance that:-

- I am deeply in love
- I am deeply in love with my ideal girlfriend, modelled on fantasies of
yesteryear
- that she loves me back the same
- that it is permanent, reciprocated, eternal
- that we love each other to the core, nothing hidden, and that nothing
will ever change that
- that she is gorgeous, beautiful, witty, charming, simply wonderful; and
that she thinks the same of me
- that I will go deeper and deeper in love, and will feel it all the
time, awake and asleep, in trance and out of it
- that my immune system will keep rising and rising
- that nothing can hurt my love; that negative thoughts will dissipate
and not get through; that even if I think negative thoughts they will
have no effect
- that I will always be in deep true love
- a post-hypnotic suggestion linked to her name which brings the wave
of love I felt at the height of the trance; I use this in trance as well
to bootstrap with, and to cause hugely positive mental shifts in any
circumstance.
- a post-hypnotic suggestion to remove the 'broken record' negative
thought trap whereby one sometimes will not stop thinking about something
negative.
Using this usually dissipates the negative thought-train in seconds:
'peace'
- a bootstrap post hypnotic suggstion to bring me down into trance
rapidly-
' back down now'.  Used multiple times it is very effective.

II Love and Feminine emotions in Men

Recently I have gone further with the suggestions of being in love:
I have built on them to enhance the power and feeling of the energy.
In April 96 I went to an evening hosted by David Icke where we
had a healing session, hauntingly positive music and some dancing to it;

I have rarely done these things or felt comfortable about talking about
love, affection and the so-called 'feminine' emotions even to myself,
let alone demonstrating them in public - but during and after that evening
I felt something change; I feel much happier about feeling kind, gentle
warm and affectionate emotions: whereas before my love for other people
was there, it paled into insignificance next to the power and potency of
the love I have for my 'imaginary girlfriend' and she has for me. Now I
am able to have that same love for others, and to feel happy, positive and
safe feeling these emotions and talking about them, enjoying them and
understanding how uplifting, healing and important they are.
In my computer-aided self-hypnosis sessions I now use far more
imaginative and evocative language than just saying 'you are deeply in love':
The amount of energy I get from the sessions or project to others has
gone through the roof as a result.

I think we men have -collectively- been almost vaccinated against feeling
the more powerful of the feminine emotions and the potent healing
energy which they carry: Whereas a sensitive and deeply kind woman
may throw herself fully into holding , hugging and caressing a friend
- male or female - and will feel the beauty, love and joy of so many
different things in so many ways, with an aching, immersing and
so very powerful involvement, we men tend to feel guilty as soon as
we realise we are being at all 'un-masculine'. We dont however
tend to feel bad & guilty about it as soon as we feel the emotion however,
only once we remember that we're not being 'macho' and that
'Boys dont cry'.

Women on the other hand tend to get the thumbs up
from their subconscious minds and feel good, happy and joyful not
just at the original good thoughts or event they're involved in, but because
they are being 'feminine', they are 'supposed' to feel these emotions and
the more loving and caring they are the better they're doing in the
'being a good woman' stakes. Instead of putting the brakes on, this
encourages them to enhance the emotions, to not merely be kind,
loving and supportive but to throw themselves as fully and as passionately
into the feelings as they can, and this has a kind of 'bootstrap' effect when
in realising they are not just feeling feminine , loving and caring but are
feeling strong and powerfully so, their 'femininity' and self-image are
enhanced still more.

Steve Parkhill has shown in 'Answer Cancer' how the critical faculty of the
subconscious mind filters out emotions, and how if a thought cant get past
this then it will not be accepted by the subconscious. In the example I've
just given, a loving woman will have a lot of highly charged, powerful,
affectionate and feminine emotions already in her memories:  in Parkhill's
terms, she has become caring, loving and affectionate through receiving
an ISE [initial sensitising event] of feeling powerful emotions of love,
affection, acceptance and approval, and this has grown and expanded with
SSE's [subsequent sensitising events] adding, nurturing and weaning
her happy, joyful personality and causing her to grow into someone who
not only gives out great amounts of love and affection but whose feminine,
loving feelings are enhanced still further by the validation and approval
of her subconscious mind's encouraging assent.
In Tad James' 'Timeline Therapy' book he explains how these ISE's
and SSE's [in Parkhill's terms] make up our personalities and how we
can change them using the powerful techniques of NLP to heal ourselves.

Our memories cluster together into 'gestalts'.
What happens to we men then when we try to have the same gentle kindness
and sensitivity as these women? Initially, we may well feel the same emotions
of happiness, love and kindness when we encounter an event, a scene of
beauty , a person or an act of love. Whereas the woman will feel happy and
glad that she is feeling the emotion and enhance it, the man will tend to
immediately have a conflict. Instead of having an ISE of love and SSE's
compounding and enhancing his ability to feel and give affection, men tend
to have ISE's of guilt, fear and loss of self-esteem when we feel feminine
emotions;

'Boys dont cry', 'Dont be a cissy', 'Pull yourself together man!'
'You're the man of the house, our Dave' and the general idea that
we have to be a 'Man!' all the time otherwise our friends will disown us
and our wives and girlfriends treat us with contempt and jilt us - this
is what has caused so many of us to suffer ISE's of guilt, fear, and
rejection of the feminine emotions- and when we do accept them, only
to pay lipservice to them and not to enjoy them for their own sake as
women can do.
j
The number of SSE's we are subjected to reinforcing the macho ethic
and persecuting mercilessly any deviation from it is breathtaking -
just try being a schoolboy for 13 years and holding onto any kind of
ability to demonstrate loving, affectionate and nurturing emotions
to your fellow males.
And it is this, the built up conditioning in our subconscious minds which
causes the problem whenever we have a kind, loving thought. Here's
what happens.

III 'Boardroom Crisis'.
---
Imagine that our memories are stored in a huge filing cabinet in our
minds. When the loving  thought comes along our mental filing clerks
look at it and say 'Hey, what's this? We dont know where to put this...
We've got macho thoughts, stiff upper lip thoughts, strength thoughts,
aggression thoughts, and power thoughts - but we dont do these.
Better call Doubt and see what to do with it.
Doubt comes along and says - "All right, what seems to be the trouble.
Inappropriate thought eh? Let's be having it then. Hmmm.... yes,
I see the problem. This is what we thought-policemen term a 'soppy' type
thought which can cause no end of trouble if it gets in. As soon as you let one of
these through, there's a danger of him going soft and then
people start to disrespect you and before you know it it's nothing but
 work, work, work all the time just to keep Macho from having a canary.
Just remind him he's a Man! and throw in some 'pull yourself together'
memories and he'll be fine, I'll kick this thought out before it causes
any more trouble.

So Doubt grabs the thought before it can get past the critical faculty and
boots it out again, at the same time reinforcing the Macho SSEs by bringing
them up from memory.

---
This is the situation which I have been in myself recently- although I have been
having an increasing number of kind, loving thoughts and although I know that
it is stronger, more powerful love which I need to heal myself and which we
all need to feel and project, even now when I feel the emotions of kindness,
sensitivity, warmth, affection, nurturing love, compassion, friendly, joyful,
generous and happy thoughts, I have problems. Doubt doesnt get the thoughts
any more, because I've said to Doubt:

'Look Doubt, I know you're just trying to help but we have a better system now.
These thoughts wont make Macho have a tantrum any more, he's happy as can
be knocking some sense into Science, Medicine and Stiff Upper Lip in the
Reject Zone. These thoughts are good, positive building blocks which raise
my energy and allow me to heal myself and uplift my friends - you've been
doing a great job Doubt, but we need to refocus your considerable abilities on
letting these good thoughts grow. There's going to be a lot more of these,
Doubt!'

Here's my allegorical tale of what happens in the Boardroom of my mind to
keep the good thoughts going:


---

Now old Doubt at first doesnt know what to do with this and panicking, calls a
meeting with the other Thought Policemen. Before escalating it any further, he
calls his old mate Guilt.
Guilt comes in and says to Doubt, 'All right Doubt, I'll handle this. I'll need
full access to the case records.'
Guilt goes off and pulls out all the memories he can find which contradict
the good thought:
Now look here says Guilt, what would your friends say? Do you want to be
a laughing stock? And what about your girlfriend - 'He's a wimp', that's what
she'll say. How can you let them down like this? After all they've done for you.
You're their friend and you're her man - pull yourself together and dont be
such a sissy. This thought's no good for you - it'll bring you down and hurt
your friends. Let it go and be a Man! like Doubt told you, it's always worked
before.
---

Until recently, old Guilt knew how to get me every time. As soon as I would
start to enjoy a loving thought or emotion, there he'd be with a picture of my
friends disapproving and worrying about me and feeling embarassed about knowing
me and being my friends. But recently, I've sussed him - I know that he's doing
his best to keep my files in order and to make sure that I dont lose my security
, my friends and my girl. He knows exactly how to get to me and make me reject
the good thoughts, but I didnt realise before that he doesnt really know why
he's doing that, or that it doesnt work in the long term. Here's what I said
to him:

'Hey Guilt! You're pretty effective. You've done a great job keeping my house
in order and even when old Doubt hasnt succeeded, you've managed to prevent
rogue thoughts getting in. I want you to keep doing your job as well as you
have, but from now on you have some different responsibilities - I want you to
take these good, happy thoughts and help them grow.  Instead of bringing out
the old files, I want you only to pull out memories from the new files from now
on, and instead of rejecting the loving thoughts I want you to reject the old
kind. I know I can rely on you to do that, even when Doubt finds it beyond him.
And thanks Guilt, you've done very well.'
----
Now Guilt panics at that and calls a mass-meeting of the Thought Policemen
since he cant handle it and the seriousness of the situation dawns on him..
Fear, Resentment, Criticism, Greed, Pride, Apathy and Nihilism file into the
boardroom and sit down with Doubt and Guilt. Nihilism takes the chair as usual,
and he reads Guilt's report out in full.
A stunned silence ensues, with Criticism finally breaking the icy calm.

'This is intolerable', says Criticism. We've done a marvellous job of keeping
this mind ticking over and now we are faced with a catastrophe just because
Doubt and Guilt cant do their jobs.
I know how to sort this out - give me ten minutes and I'll be back with the
situation resolved.'

Criticism then drags out all the memories of failure and ridicule which had
been filed in the past whenever a good, loving thought had gotten through and
had caused some incident. Going into minute detail on every part of the loving
thought, he explains precisely why it is untrue, unnecessary and unworkable -
and exactly what the consequences would be of filing it and re-designating
Doubt's and Guilt's duties.

After completely hearing him out, I say the following to him:
'OK Criticism, you're pretty good. So good that I've almost always given into
you in the past; But not this time. You're finished, Criticism - sacked.
Out the door, do you hear me? I've had it with you. Never a good word to say
about anything. There might be a position for you in the new Truth department
I'm forming, but I'll have to see - I dont want you doing the same
to other people that you've done to me for so long; you're going to have to
learn to take people for what they are and accept them. I'm giving your job to
Acceptance. Dont bother going back to clear your desk.

---
When the others at the meeting realise Criticism isnt coming back, they go
crazy. Fear throws image after image of disaster and projected catastrophe
which he constructs using his enormous stack of filed memories. Resentment
brings out offence after offence and incident after incident to try and
overwhelm the good thought with hate, revenge and anger thoughts ; Pride
throws images of how well the team has succeeded in keeping the mind going in
the past, of it's achievements and of all the work which would be lost if things
were changed. Greed also throws images of all the material things, habits and
vices which will be in jeopardy if the loving thought
gets through - these two have always made a formidable team. Apathy and
Nihilism stand back from this, and just watch.

To their horror, each of their pieces of evidence are rejected one after the
other as being irrelevant and not having enough scope to overturn the good
thought. Who's Scope they say? We've never heard of him.  Who does he think he
is? At this moment, Criticism runs in brandishing a piece of paper. Here, read
this! he shouts. It's  a suicide note which has been written years earlier.
Do you remember this you ungrateful son of a bitch?, Criticism shouts.

'It was only my fine analysis of the situation which convinced you that it
wouldnt do any good'; 'And mine that it would be a pointless thing to do',
adds Nihilism. 'And now you sack me without so much as a  'By Your Leave'!
The others read it, and knowingly nod, affirming that this would be the
inevitable outcome if they are not allowed to continue doing things their way.

---
'You know who Scope is, dont you Nihilism?', I say.
Nihilism grimaces and says 'Yes, I know him. And Quality, and Focus, and
Acceptance, and Love, and Approval, and Forgiveness.  And I also know what you
have in mind, in a way which these others cannot picture. But it will do you
no good at all - at the end of the day, you will merely make all the same
mistakes again but in another way. It is inevitable; Is it not better to accept
this and continue as we are, than to cause unnecessary turmoil?'

Apathy chips in then and said 'Is it really worth all this bother? The amount
of pain, stress and hassle you will bring yourself is too great for the benefits
you may hypothetically reap. Lets see if there's an
easier way to do what you have in mind, without making so much work for
everyone. Remember the last time you had one of these hair-brained ideas.

Nihilism then gathers himself and rises - 'On behalf of us all, I earnestly
beseech you to reconsider. If you will not, then we shall all resign. You will
be left with no organising principle at all for your thoughts, and you will
quickly go insane. We do not want to do this, but you leave us no choice.
There is simply no reason to do what you envisage - it will achieve nothing.
But if you insist you will do it without us.
---

'So be it', say I. And one by one they file out of the boardroom.

----
Now in the past, the Thought Policemen would win by default at this point by
playing a waiting game;
If I didnt give them their way they just wouldnt do anything. By systematically
escalating the seriousness of the loss of face / quality I would suffer by
accepting a positive, loving thought into my subconscious mind, they would
increase the stakes to the point where I would eventually give in, every time.
If I persisted to the end, they would all resign and I would be left with no
friends, no girlfriend, and no respect.

For a long, long time I could not see a way out of this situation - and I grew
more and more depressed and alienated from the world whilst at school.
It has only been in the last year that finally something has
well and truly burst the boil. The following tale is a similarly allegorical
summary of what happened when I let Louise Hay into my heart and trusted her.
---
The look of shock on Nihilism's face when he saw Love, Approval, Quality,
Focus, Acceptance and Forgiveness standing outside the door with huge bundles
of files in their arms was pronounced.

You KNEW we would resign? You stole all the files whilst we were in the
meeting? This is outrageous! cried Nihilism.

'No Nihilism, it was my doing' a strong voice said. Standing behind the other
newly appointed officers stood Synchronicity, with an enormous chart in his
hands detailing everything which had just happened and much more to come. 'You
always resign. Time after time we have watched this drama unfold and time
after time we have sat on our hands whilst kind, loving thoughts
have been discarded thanks to your Machiavelian schemes. But not this time;
This time we will not stay silent. We are the turning of the tide, Nihilism -
we're not going to let Mind get any sicker.

'But you're not real! You cant be!' cried Nihilism. We ran you out in the
beginning, along with Intuition, Faith and Psychic! How could you get back in!

'I never really left, Nihilism - neither did my friends. We've just been
sleeping. But we're back now, and we'd like to thank you for keeping Mind
ticking over until we could assume control.

We'll continue your work and keep things organised; but it will be a far, far
better Mind than it was under your control.'.

What will you do with us? wailed Nihilism.

'Nothing drastic, said Synchronicity. We need your help'

Nihilism spewed saliva everywhere as he nearly choked at that. You WHAT???
Are you SERIOUS???

'Perfectly. We cant run Mind properly without knowing how you guys operate.
It's all very well us running this Mind ok, but all his mates and colleagues
will need to change too. We cant do that on our own, we need your experience
and knowledge. You are correct to say that on our own we will
fail - we are well aware of that. That is why we have remained dormant until
now, when the time was exactly right; too early, we would not have had enough
information on how to help Mind survive in this world. Only you could have
done that, as you point out - we would indeed have failed had we assumed
control from day one, as we will now if you walk out and refuse to help.

If on the other hand we had waited any longer, the consequences of Mind's and
his colleagues extremely negative behaviour would have succeeded in destroying
the world. You have been extremely successful Nihilism, but your time is over.
It is time to use your talents to dismantle the monstrosities you have helped
create - or we will all be no more.

The world itself is but a larger reflection of the Mind we inhabit, and it
too is sick to the core as a result of your mismanagement and that of all
your counterparts in Mind's friends and fellow humans. The collective
Nihilism of which you are a part has come very close indeed to damaging
the planet to the extent where it will be destroyed.
I know that that is what you ultimately desire - nothingness - but if you will
search into the very depths of your own being, I think you will find that it is
a desire which was put into you just as we put thoughts into Mind's storage
facilities. I think you will find that there was something prior to that first
nihilistic thought you had, which does care about your existence and wants it
to continue. Whereas up until now you've been far too busy
doing your job - and doing it well - you will now finally have the opportunity
to face the consequences not of Mind's actions, but of your own.

You are not being stripped of your power, it is only that your responsibilities
are changing rather than being reduced. If you do not help us we shall fail to
pull other Minds out of their imbalance, there will be a rent in the Universe
and we shall all achieve your desire.

But have you ever had the chance to go deeply within yourself enough to know
that it really is your desire? Was there not something there before it, which
was put on hold until you resolved your own first anguish - and did you ever
get back to that first hurt?

You may feel, Nihilism, that it would not be possible to go back to that first
hurt - and that as a result the chain of dependancies and justifications of
your actions and your current policy must needs stand. However, there is one
further possibility which I would like you to consider - that of a cyclic
cancellation of that first event, and a chain reaction of
balancing of events which can grow and bootstrap as it seeps up the chain of
events.

I speak, Nihilism, of the feelings of Love which you lost so very long ago; and
the seemingly inevitable demise of the one thing you really cared about.
We cannot turn the clock back to avert it, nor console you with platitudes
since the events which have taken place stand  - however, there is one thing
which I believe may constitute a cyclic balancing catalyst.

Love has recently found how to connect to Divine Energy without the need for
an intermediary; instead of fighting against the romantic instinct, Love
fulfills it by genuinely fulfilling all desires and holding the vision which
channels the energy into Mind. I believe that Mind rationalises this as being
his 'imaginary girlfriend' or some such construction, but the direct connection
to the Divine Energy of spiritual love is undeniable.I, Synchronicity, then use the
energy boost so created to heal and to raise the vibration of the Body,
to break blocks and to release negative energy. Feminine emotions, thoughts
and energy are used to balance the extreme negative/ male imbalance and
as the whole Mind approaches balance at the conscious thought level, great
leaps and bounds in his conscious understanding are achieved.

In so doing, we have made great progress - but so far only from a top-down
approach.  Whilst we accept that rewinding the clock is not an option and that
we cannot undo what has been done, we believe that we now have the answer to
the initial sensitising event (ISE) which you, Nihilism, suffered in the first
place to create your makeup. By creating through Love an exact replica of your
ISE but with the opposite outcome,  by using a similar device to Mind's
imaginary girlfriend and through the eternal nature of this construction, we
have managed finally to create a balancing experience which is stronger even
than the sum total of all the negative events which you have suffered.

Whilst a normal experience could not remotely achieve this, the cyclic
balancing catalyst which we have devised has the unique quality
that it is stronger in the positive direction at every turn than the sum of the
whole history of negative experiences which you have accumulated.

The trick is in the manner in which the good, loving thought we wish to
introduce to you would normally be attacked and thrown out. Until we allowed
you to assume control of Mind and set up your elaborate control system, we did
not understand fully enough how this operated-  now we are finally able to
understand this system well enough to use it as the means to it's own salvation.

We had always postulated that once this thought was planted that it would be
overwhelmed and rejected by your own inner mental thought police - and that
no matter how positive an experience we could create for you that the sum
of your horror would always reject it.

In seeing your runaway imbalance we failed to see that a balancing experience
didnt have to be as powerful as the negative memories - it just has to hold long
enough to change the belief system from within.

Here then in a nutshell is what we propose:
- we propose to [with your permission] bypass your own critical faculty to
inject the memory and emotion of an experience stronger in intensity but of the
opposite energy to your initial sensitising event i.e. positive.  We will mold
this 'memory' into a belief that you  are deeply, eternally, wonderfully and
with full reciprocation, security and  congruence, in deep, true love with the
object of your ISE. We will install this belief  into your Mind, and also into
your own Nihilism Thought Policeman and also into his, in a recursive chain: an
endless chain of discussions identical to this is taking place all along that
chain. This process occurs up the way as well, so that the Nihilism in the
collective human mind is also being offered this same choice at the collective
level: this will result in a switch in the global thought patterns which
the other humans tap into and it will allow a rapid spiritual transformation
to take place on the earth.

By resolving your own reservations about the idea at the same time and
recursively,your own Nihilism chairman will not veto the act, nor will his own
chairman veto his and so on. Only by so doing can we succeed in doing this,
and in fact I have liased [at the collective synchronistic level] with the
Synchronicities in every other human on the planet to make this possible.
I have not in fact been sleeping since the Beginning, but have in fact been
very busy.

Returning to the ISE we wish to inject, As soon as the belief is installed
we will use it to channel in enormous amounts of energy.

The resistance which will ensue at every recursive level from your own
Criticism, Fear, Resentment, Pride, Apathy , Greed, Doubt and Guilt will be
turned around at every level: with every memory, image and piece of evidence
which they produce we will trace it's path back along to your initial ISE.
we will then calculate the required reversal of energy needed to balance any
particular SSE by tracing it back to a prior SSE or to the
ISE. If a prior SSE is found, we recursively trace back until we hit the ISE
and then we release the energy from our installed reverse-ISE memory up the
chain of tracings until the SSE is balanced and resolved. In this way a network
of energy paths is quickly created from the reverse-ISE memory into the other
stored memories, and as more and more images, evidence and files are thrown
at this memory it will gradually raise the energy of the whole memory
collection until a critical mass is achieved and the collection stabilises.

The trick with this is that although the whole mass of negativity could easily
overwhelm the reverse-ISE, because each and every attack which is brought up
against it can be [with recursion if necessary] balanced by it, and since no
matter how many attacks there are they can all be dealt with one by one since
it is only when they are brought to conscious awareness that they need be
dealt with and this is always done one-at-a-time, the reverse-ISE is never
overwhelmed since the outcome of each and every attack is that it grows
stronger: despite the massive well of negativity which could potentially be
thrown at the reverse-ISE, not a single battle is lost.

Criticism interrupted just then: If it's just Nihilism you want to fix,
what's it got to do with us?

'Everything. You each have Nihilism inside you, and every Nihilism has all of
you. I am inside Nihilism, and he is inside me. We are all each other.
But at this time we need to concentrate on Nihilism. The mechanism by which
we can heal Nihilism depends on the manner in which his memories are brought
up against the reverse-ISE; it's not enough just to install the memory,
because in every one of these recursively- existing Nihilism's, this discussion
is taking place. We need you to help us bring the memories
up in the right order and to make the links between the ISE and the SSEs; we
also need you to organise the good memories and thoughts which will replace
them.

Just as you will not survive if we do not act to save the World, we cannot
survive without you. We need your help: and each of you must now decide whether
to give it.

Synchronicity sat down then, exhausted, whilst Nihilism deliberated.
For the first time ever, all the Thought Policemen stood staring at each other,
and no-one could say a word

 Finally Nihilism stood up and said four words.
'It's worth a try'.
Synchronicity smiled, knowing what had just happened. Walking over, he took
Nihilism's hand
and shook it.  It had been a long twelve thousand years.

-----------------------  [End of part 1/2]

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Sun May 19 10:52:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: 'Boardroom Crisis' 2/2
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 23:52:50 +0100

'Boardroom crisis, part 2/2

IV

The allegorical story in (III) above is unfinished, but it represents my strategy for
dealing with negative thoughts, doubt, guilt, criticism, fear etc. whenever
I have a loving, warm, happy, feminine thought or emotion : instead of
knocking it on the hid, keeping a 'stiff upper lip'  or 'pulling myself
together', I welcome, nourish and cherish these positive, loving thoughts now.

Instead I take pleasure in noticing how warm, loving and happy I am becoming,
I bootstrap the pleasant, loving feelings with that and plug in my ISEs for
good to the emotion. My primary ISE (initial sensitising event) for good,
loving thoughts is my imaginary girlfriend;

A recent strong SSE was David Icke's workshop which healed a lot of my
blocks to talking about these emotions and feeling safe and happy with them.

** exactly what I did under hypnosis to convince my subconscious mind
that it's deeply in love requires a lot of further explanation,

My description of my optimum health state is at
www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html , 'Jeffries ideas for nice people' article.
 The articles 'Love Changes Everything ' I & II and 'Jeffries ideas for nice
people II' are also recommended.   **

Here is the rest of the coincidences tale,

(V)

4. On December 1st, I read Ronald Baker's 'Creative Visualisations' book
and found to my surprise that his 'getting energy from the sun' visualisation
was very similar to the Celestine Prophecy 'breathing in the love' technique
and that they were both describing similar symptoms to my optimum health
state. I took Baker's book with me the next day for a chat with two friends
about the Celestine prophecy book, and I took the Celestine book with me too.
I also had a think about the girl I had made a fool of myself with and who
had been responsible along with Baker's book for my using the hypnosis to
convince myself in deep trance that I am deeply in love.I thought about her
lfor the first time in a while, and as to whether something odd she had said
to me might be connected to Ronald Baker;

this girl has an economics degree, whilst Baker is an Economics lecturer;
I recently found out that Baker lectures in  Scotland and also
this girl said to me that her old lecturer had been into hypnosis.
I thought about whether it might be the same guy, and dismissed the thought
as idle speculation since I wasnt [I thought] likely to meet her again.

I had met her in odd circumstances several times before, and each time it
really freaked me out even after the hypnosis.  She was one of my students
on an IT course last year, and she was also uncannily
similar to my old girlfriend, personality wise and looks-wise.

To cut a very long story short, circumstances conspired to cheat her out
of her Msc several times and each time I bailed her out by spending a great
deal of extra time showing her how to program. The final cut came when
she failed her exams and I went spare;

the letter of support I wrote for her appeal was one of the best
things I've ever written, and it both succeeded and shocked a few people.
One other thing, this girl's Irish and has bright red hair: that gets
important. [Honest. :-)]

5. On Decemeber 2nd, a Saturday, I had a long chat with my 'psychic' friends
about the Celestine prophecy, David Icke and other things, and when we had
finished I was diverted from my usual route home by Peter, one of them. I
set to thinking as to whether I could really be guided by my intuition as
Celestine describes, and in deciding that yes I could I ended up wandering
fairly aimlessly to see where it would take me. I wandered onto our tube
system and thought 'Oh well I'll go into town and get a book or sth. then.'.

6. Two stops on, this girl gets on and sits down next to me. I took a double
take, having Ronald Baker's book in my bag, the Celestine book and having just
been thinking about synchronicity on the one hand and whether Baker was her
lecturer on the other hand. I also remembered that Celestine says if you keep
meeting someone in odd circumstances there's probably a synchronistic message
and the best thing you can do is have it out with them even if it's embarassing-
that pressed the trigger:


I pulled out the Celestine prophecy book and gave it to her
saying 'I think I'm meant to give you this'. [Cant remember exactly why I did
that] I then asked her
'Did you by any chance have an economics lecturer named Ronald Baker?'
'Yes'
'That would explain a few things'.
'I think I'm meant to give you these. '
I told her how to contact me if she wants to and then got up and got off
the train; I gave her the Celestine book and Creative Visualisations.

7. This freaked me out, but the following freaked me out more:
Four days later [Dec 6th] I was due to have a talk with Kevin, one of the
two people I had talked about Celestine with on the Saturday before meeting
her, and his friend David, supposedly a powerful psychic.
David wasnt there, instead Kevin's friend Tara, an Irish girl who had come
to the university to give a biology lecture. Kevin explained that David
couldnt make it, and that since Tara was coming anyway he thought we'd
go to the pub rather than waste the evening.

We did, and when Tara went to the toilet Kevin explained to me:
'The real reason she's here is that David thought I should introduce you
to an Irish girl... with red hair; Apparently it's quite important.'
I just gaped at this point, and then checked my mind thoroughly for the
following:-

- I had not seen Kevin since before meeting the girl on the train;
- I had not mentioned her to anyone, and certainly not to Kevin or David.
- There is no way they could have known;
- I don't drink [or didnt back then] , so it wasnt being under the influence
that did it;
Kevin then explained that since Tara was coming anyway, and since she is
Irish and has red hair, that he thought inviting her along would be fair
enough.

But he had not known I had met the girl on the train, or any of the other
things surrounding her and the hypnosis.

8. On the same day as the pub evening with Tara and Kevin, I had a series
of odd happenings whilst copying computer disks:
disk 1 : 0 bytes free after formatting and copying files.
disk 2 :1024 bytes free  after formatting and copying.
disk 3 :2048 bytes free, 1448448 bytes total.
I thought this was odd and noticed that the third disk had 1446400 bytes
total, which is in fact 1280 squared or 2 to the power 18 times 5 ;
At the same time, two friends including Peter, the other guy from December
2nd,

had been having the number 4 coming up everywhere to ridiculous proportions;
Peter and Marvin had both seen the same odd symbols in waking dreams.
Anyway, Marvin had been insisting there was some connection between the
symbols, the pentagram symbol, the fibonacci sequence & the golden rectangle.
I'd been thinking about pentagrams and playing a tape of myself talking
back, actually about these symbols.
I thought Peter and Marvin were going off the wall with this [OK, I know,
I can talk.... :-)] but then the following happened:-

I e-mailed Marvin asking him if there was any connection between these
numbers, the symbols, the pentagram and the fibonnaci sequence; that
evening, [Wednesday 6th] Marvin sits working it out with his graphics
calculator that there is a connection between the pentagram angles, the
golden rectangle, the fibonnaci spiral and the symbols: also David, the
guy who said 'Irish girl with red hair', immediately drew a spiral on
being shown the symbols.

[There are three symbols, Peter and Marvin insist there should be a fourth.]
Anyway, Marvin came in the next day to e-mail me and tell me that he'd
found this connection; and found an e-mail from me asking him the same
thing he was about to tell me. He then went apeshit & we tried to piece
some of it together.

9. Over the next two weeks more odd things happened: one in particular was
beyond chance IMO. Marvin's friend Allan is into NLP [they're everywhere,
arent they :-)] and has a two year old daughter. When he carries her up
to her bed, if he says to her that he's just going to take her up to her
bed, she doesnt wake up. If he doesnt, she does wake up; Now Allan's
pretty logical and thought 'How can this be?' He tried an experiment.
'Susie, can you hear me ?' - No response.
'Susie's brain, can you hear me?' - No response
'can you make some indication that you can hear me?'
'maybe a twitch or something?' - and she twitched.
'Right, lets work out a code then. Left hand for yes, right hand for no;'
'Is Susie asleep?'  Yes.
'Would you like to be addressed as a child or an adult?' - adult.
'...'
Allan's about to ask another question when his girlfriend comes in and says
'Oh no.. you're too weird, you're too weird; I'm not sleeping with you
tonight'.

Allan's pretty cheesed at this and thinks, doesnt say, 'Why dont you sit
up and look at me'. - and his daughter sits up and looks at him, eyes wide
and pupils dilated, still fast asleep.

Now in this two weeks the depth of my trances went through the floor; very
rapid descent into a numbed, immobile trance; trouble was this was watching
the TV! :-). To cut a long story short I used the twitching experiment
myself to ask my subconscious mind / higher self some questions, since in
a deep trance I cant physically even twitch.

I got quite a few answers, but the one which had the most consequences
was whether to call David Icke's friend Ayem and tell her about the
coincidences.

I called her, and had one heck of a conversation with her: it turned out
she was in for the first time in weeks and was just about to call me, no
kidding. It then transpired:-

- when talking to me in Glasgow, she had kept getting a picture of a pentagram
in her mind;
- she has done a lot of work with shapes, and kept getting drawn to spirals
and the golden rectangle;
- she asks me to psychically 'connect' with her that evening and project
spiritual love; The result inflow of energy was stronger even than my
deep trance emotions. The next day, I was *jumping* with energy; it also
took away my fear, which I had been letting get to me.
- she very strongly recommends to me that I buy Louise Hay's 'You can heal
your life' book.

10. I waited till January before buying Louise Hay's book, and wandered
into Dillons to get it, and then met somebody else I keep meeting in
odd circumstances [havent found out why yet - this guy's a computer
scientist / celtic music fan.]. Anyway, I found the book resting against
'Psychobiology' by Ernest Rossi - on looking through Rossi's book I found
that he's proved [IMO] the scientific basis of healing in hypnosis,
the placebo response, mind-body communication etc., and that his book
essentially gives a 'scientific' proof of Louise Hay's. I love Louise's
book, it cut right through my excuses and convinced me that I do create my
own reality.

11. I spoke to Ron Baker on the phone back in December, when he told me
that he had recently been to a Rossi workshop, that he had written a book
in 1972 saying that people are basically good and create their own reality,
and that he'd years ago written a simple program - without finishing it -
to do computer hypnosis.

12. In February a gambler friend asked me to accompany him to the casino.
Whilst there, I thought I would try out an experiment which the famous
psychic Uri Geller related the tale of in his 'The Geller Effect' book;
At the casino, I sat down at the table and put a pound [about $1.50] on
Black. The idea was that if my left hand tingled or twitched, I would put
the money on black - if my right, then on red. I would start with one pound
and leave the money on until it lost whatever, hence I wasnt really gambling
in my opinion but just seeing if I could accurately predict the result.

My left foot had tingled, not twitched, and I had put the first pound on
black - it won. Then my right foot tingled, and the two pounds went on red:
it won, I then had four. I won again, and had eight. Won again - sixteen.
And again - thirty-two. And again - sixty-four. Then it lost; I think I
started to care about the amount and in getting anxious, messed it up.

A few weeks later I tried it again, this time winning about eighty pounds.
Two days later, won two hundred and fifty. And the last time I went
[about three weeks ago] I won a hundred and fifty. This time, something
bizarre happened in the process;

The day before going to the casino I had been going to get my hair cut.
I walked along towards the shop and suddenly without consciously wanting to
I turned round and walked into a cafe. I had a meal, and had an intuition
that someone was going to walk in whom I knew; No-one did, but on leaving
the cafe [again intending to go to the barbers] I instead turned round and
walked into the tube station, again my legs seeming to get a mind of their
own and ignoring my conscious mind's instructions to go the other way.

I got onto the tube and half expected the Irish girl I mentioned to get on
again - she didnt, but at the stop I had gotten off at the time I had met her
my hand burned strongly - far stronger than the normal tingling. On thinking
as to whether I should get up and get off, it burned so strongly it hurt
and I got off. Walking along the road then, it burned again outside an
amusement arcade. Skeptical as to what good I could possibly do in such
a place I walked in anyway, and won a few pounds on one of the slot machines.
Looking over to the end of the arcade I then thought:

'Hey.... That's John! '. One of my best friends was playing one of the other
machines, wearing a suit, which was unusual to say the least -

I went over and talked to him, learning that he had been for an interview
and was thinking of going to the casino: at this my hand burned again.

We agreed to go to the casino the next day. That day on the way there,
we stopped in a shop and I was surprised to see Uri Geller's face leering
out at me from the front of his new 'Mind Power Kit'. Geller is selling
his new book packaged with a crystal which he has 'energised'; Anyway, we
bought the kit and after parking the car went for a cup of coffee. On taking
the crystal out, my arm started jerking slightly as I held it. Putting it
in my other hand, the same thing happened - spooky. Then I looked down at
the table to see a second crystal - it seemed that it must have fallen
out of the box, but there did not seem to be enough room in it for it.

On holding the second crystal, my hand also jerked about.

We went to the casino then, and I won the money. Rather than just playing
roulette red-black now, I was getting tingles in my arms when a blackjack
was coming up.

I have not yet tried to win big money using it, partly since I'm not sure
if I should and partly since the anxiety over putting amounts of money
I care greatly about losing down has tended to cause me to mess it up.
It's not infallible, but I do seem to win far more often than I lose
in using it which as anyone who has frequented casinos for any length of time
will know is quite rare.

Pleased at winning enough money to buy some books I had wanted, I put the
crystals on top of a desk in my room and went to bed. The next day, a large
piece of metal on top of the desk had bent over by over an inch; I couldnt
have bent this thick metal physically myself if I'd tried, and seeing it
like that was quite eerie; Uri Geller strikes again.

Since the last casino trip and getting Geller's crystals the tinglings in
my hands have gotten much stronger. I've also begun to see 'auras' around
people and have a lot more energy since the David Icke workshop I went
to in April; the healing session, hauntingly positive music, hugging /
cuddling and dancing broke a lot of my subconscious blocks to intimacy
and feminine emotions, and the love I feel coursing through me has gotten
so very much stronger as a result. The coincidences are heating up, and
I am losing my blocks on talking about this also; With Redfield's new book
'The Tenth Insight' now out, a lot of people are going to be having things
like this going on, and I think it's better to be open, honest and
sincere about things like this rather than to pretend it's not going on in
case people think I'm a nutter or 'a cissy' for thinking these things.

13. A couple of months ago Marvin got 'led' to a book entitled
'Where science and magic meet' by a parapsychologist, a woman named
Serena Roney-Dougall. Serena has done what no-one has dared to do for
over a hundred years, to give a scientific treatment not of the fringes
of the occult but of the actual practices of the magickians and psychics
who know what really happens in magick and psychic goings-on.

She has proved scientifically the basis of ritual magick, telepathy,
synchronicity, psychic healing and much else; it is a truly fascinating
book, and it filled in a lot of the gaps in my own knowledge about how
to heal by projecting love at people, subliminal information and magick itself.

What I suspect Serena may not yet know herself is that her book ties
in very closely with Ernest Rossi's 'Psychobiology', and taken together
they give a formidable scientific proof of the validity of psychic healing
and therapeutic hypnosis, completely vindicating Steve Parkhill and Louise
Hay. Parkhill's 'Answer Cancer' book is also greatly involved in my
coincidences, as well as he and I being involved in a vicious flamewar with
the skeptics in the alt.hypnosis forum.

Imagine the looks on Marvin and I's faces when at David Icke's workshop
last month he starts talking about the 'Where Science and Magick Meet' book
BEFORE we had told him what had happened surrounding it!

14. Not all the coincidences which have happened to me have been good;
I do not want to go into this here but some of the people I have come across
recently turned out to be black magickians in the classic sense - psychic
attacks, ritual magick to harm and cause ill-fated events, conspiracy , lies
and you name it. Things have turned out OK in the end and I have no intention
of touching these people with a bargepole, but it needs to be understood
I fear that these people exist and that they will gravitate towards anyone who
does not approach this area - synchronicity, spirituality and the occult -
with caution and discernment like a jam pot attracts wasps.
It's all very well reading 'The Celestine Prophecy' and trying to uplift
everyone who comes into your life, but I have learned the hard way that
it's important to keep your eyes open and not trust everyone who comes
your way by coincidence.

I would say that reading David Icke's 'And the truth shall set you free'
is the best protection that anyone can get from such dangers, and all the
protection one needs.

15.  Fast forward to last week, Thursday the 9th of May. ; I bought the sequel
to the Celestine Prophecy,
'The Tenth Insight' which is just out in Scotland. On the same day I bought
Louise Hay's 'Colors and Numbers 96' book.

Just prior to this I had a funny tingling in my hands whilst talking to
a friend who was involved in another bizarre coincidence with me a couple
of weeks ago - John, the guy who I had been to the casino with. Then I
remembered mentioning him to the Irish girl and that she had asked about
him for some reason;

I left him to go and buy the two books, and went to the bookshop.

Walking along the road with the books in my bag and the
'The Princess Bride ' theme tune tape in my pocket - this film is also
involved in how and why I convinced my subconscious mind it's deeply in
love under hypnosis - I met the Irish girl with red hair again whom I
had met on the train back in December, and who had Ron Baker as her
lecturer.

More coincidences followed from what we said to each other, I wont go into
those now since they're ongoing. On reading the book later I realised
what Redfield's new book [The Tenth Insight] is - it's IMO the proof and the
long awaited bridge of common ground for the so-called 'gnostic dilemma' of
Christianity and other religions: that people who experience modern day
'miracles' such as psychic healing, telepathy, psychokinesis etc. , and people
who realise the true nature of spiritual love - as an energy -  have been
wrongly condemned as heretics and troublemakers for centuries, when in fact
this knowledge of how love, control dramas and energy affect us is the
means by which we can practically apply our faiths and fulfill the universal
commandment to love each other.

Louise Hay's 'Colors and Numbers 96' book was fascinating, and on working
out which day something like this coincidence would be most likely to have
happened according to Louise's Book, Thursday 9th May was the calculated
answer before I looked at the calendar and worked out that it had indeed
been the 9th of May.

The 18th of May apparently would be a similar day, but when it got to 6pm
today with nothing major seemingly having happened I thought perhaps
I had been mistaken - until I read Laurel's message that is.

There is a lot more to this synchronicity which I dont want to post on
just now to a) protect the guilty and b) because I'm unsure of what much
of it means; I am becoming increasingly convinced now though that the
reason I am here myself - my lifeplan as it were - is to tell people what
happened to me after putting my subconscious mind in love with hypnosis,
and that this series of coincidences has happened partly to tell me that.

I'll wrap this up for now - I cannot recommend highly enough James Redfield's
book 'The Celestine Prophecy' to anyone interested in finding out more
and getting involved in coincidences; this isnt something that just happens
to me or certain kinds of people but is rather something which we can all
experience if we want to - and the first step is reading Redfield's book IMO.

Yours with smoke coming off the keyboard, :-)

Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk
www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Mon May 20 09:26:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Movie Metaphor
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 16:26:09 -0500

Jurek--Given your description of the film "Unbearable Lightness of Being," I
can understand your confusion about my suggested link. Please note that I said
thta my connection was to the *title* only (and that I had not seen the film).
The title suggests a solunarity that seems apt here , even if the film itself
is not relevant. Sorry for the confusion. My connection was perhaps wanton.
        Susan

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Mon May 20 09:37:29 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Midwives.. and survival of the FIT.
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 16:37:29 -0500

Jurek--Thank you for a tremendous insight! The poetic shift from "survival of
the fittest" (darwinian competition, tooth and nail and all that) to "survival
of the fit" is an eye-opener. Perhaps psyberspace is a new way of finding "fit"
between ourselves and what is around us--and, in the ideal, a way of making that
world more "fit" for living in peace and harmony. I have been accused in some
of the choices with my daughter [from birthing, to explicitly avoiding giving
an indication of her sex to strangers (I mmanaged that for about 2 years, when
by then her own gender-typed self-references blew my devilishly delightful
game), to sending her to alternative schools, very limited tv, etc]  in making
her "unfit" for the world--my reply is that I want her to be able to transform
the world rather than fitting into the norm which I see as fairly violent and
dysfunctional. The shift of term and tone you offer here gives me much to go
think about!
        Susan

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Mon May 20 18:36:48 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Nothing ever created by rage?
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 02:36:48 -0400

I don't remember who it was that said that rage never created anything
useful on this list.  I do remember that it was a woman, and I vaguely
remember that the intention of the message that that rage was a typically
masculine response, and that women are superiour in their approach because
they approach things without rage.

Yesterday I was watching a movie and realized that rage is a fundamental
part of courage.

I know that without courage, there is no hope.

Certainly without hope, there are no dreams or progress.

So I have to wonder why a women would claim that something that is a natural
part of us all never created anything useful?

I guess because men have more of it?

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Mon May 20 18:36:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Men, et al..
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 02:36:50 -0400

There have been quite a few posting's here about men as if what it is to be
a man can be defined in a few pages of email.

It can't.


By the way, men are what women have wanted over the years, and have
selectively bred into existance, so don't blame us.

After all, we, as men, selectivly bred women into what they are.



And on the idea of knowledge, without humanity, there wouldn't be knowledge,
in any context.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From 101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM Tue May 21 01:46:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: various topics
From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 09:46:38 EDT

. Psychology of Psyber-space
The information I gathered from reading the communications appearing on
Psyber-L makes me get the feeling that the majority of its contributing
members is from the psychol. profession or has a related background
(educators). This means that the psychic processes occurring in the
Psyber-space of this list are processes occurring in the minds of
psychologists. Sometimes, I feel an almost religious zest expressed in some of
the statements. The excessive use of metaphors seems to me an indication that
the solitude of the internet is to be overcome by creating illusion and
projections. There was the discussion about reality. Naturally, it is all a
question of definition and semantics. Virtual reality can be considered as
reality since it is reflected in our mind. One the other hand *real* reality
has the additional component of nonverbal exchange of communication with the
environment. I found it interesting to observe that the proponents of the
psyber-space as a reality took great pains to eliminate f2f communication as a
non-essential prerequisite for intercourse.
I think that the internet is great for exchanging all kinds of information,
especially of professional contents, but I do not fancy the idea of it being a
psychological meeting ground. It does not have any additional quality when
compared to communication by letters, Telex, FAX, or telephone. If hand
writing is involved an emotional component can be transmitted, even. Here,
this forum is an open group where people come and leave all the time, a kind
of Hyde Park corner. There have been some suggestions to study the
psychological aspects of e-mail lists or to create an encyclopedia of the
internet, good proposals for serious work. The present discussion can go on
*ad infinitum* because the topics originate on a sort of random basis. Some
people describe their personal problems and feelings which triggers the
response of others. Although it is interesting up to a certain point, to read
these messages, sometimes I wonder what is the significance of a question as
*shaving*, especially of women's arm pits and legs, if you don't like to do
it.
Einstein came up, and it should be pointed out that Newton already discussed
the important problem of systems of reference in mechanics. Einstein expanded
this idea for the case of a limiting upper velocity, the veloctiy of light.
Calculus is of secondary importance, its just a language to formulate the
essentail physics.
The ideas of second cybernetics do not necessarily imply the participation of
the observer. The theory of autopoiesis describes the self organization of
systems not only of human nature. It is intimately connected to irreversible
thermodynamics (I. Prigogine) which applies to all kinds of systems.
Sincerely, FRITZ

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Tue May 21 04:18:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: various topics and hair removal
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 17:18:02 +0100

Dear Fritz,

I am surprised you have either overlooked or missed the point entirely which
I was trying to make with regards to the tremendous social, psychological,
gender issue, historical and cultural importance of shaving of armpits,
legs, and basically anywhere hair can be found.

Its actually of vital importance when you consider how depilation in the
West has now become almost obligatory for women, and how its non removal can
be a statement of who you are.. ie butch lesbian, social worker, hippy or
German.

Personally I would never trust a man with a beard or a man whose eyebrows
meet in the middle.

Yours

courtesy of Remmington, waxing, sugaring and various creams, lotions and
electrolysis machines

Dolores

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Tue May 21 06:13:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Nothing ever created by rage..
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:13:37 EDT

Wilbur and Psyberians:

"Anyone can become angry-that is easy. But to be angry with the right person, to
the right degree, at the right time, for the right purpose, and in the right
way-this is not easy."

Aristotle, The Nicomachean Ethics. -

Opening quotation from the book of Daniel Goleman - "Emotional Intelligence. Why
it can matter more than IQ".

Best regards Jurek

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From 101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM Wed May 22 02:07:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Various topics and hair
From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 10:07:01 -0400 (EDT)

Dear Laurel,
the majority of women I know do not shave their armpits or their legs, without
any adverse effects on their social standing. Matter of fact their mates find
it sexy. There may be an east-west drop in appreciation. The same holds for
beards and alike. I am somewhat surprised to read in your former
communications

*This place has something that I believe we are yet to discover and that is
ourselves and the ability to love and to know other human beings in a way that
just doesnt exist outside of cyberspace, but which we will learn to translate
into our real lives.*

and then to learn

*Personally I would never trust a man with a beard or a man whose eyebrows
meet in the middle.*

Prejudice is a strong inhibitor of any meaningful communication.

Further

*and how its non removal can be a statement of who you are.. ie butch lesbian,
social worker, hippy or German.*

I only wonder, in what sort of surrounding you are living? A person with a
strongly developed sence of selfesteem and selfconfidence would ignore these
stereotypes.

Sincerely Fritz (with a mustache!)

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Wed May 22 03:03:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Movie Metaphor
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 11:03:02 -0400

In a message dated 96-05-19 17:25:01 EDT, you write:

>Jurek--Given your description of the film "Unbearable Lightness of Being," I
>can understand your confusion about my suggested link...<snip>
>.. My connection was perhaps wanton.
>        Susan

Perhaps, given Robert's apparent affect on the women of this list, the movie
"Choose Me" would be a more appropriate metaphor for the list.

<giggling>

Is'e

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Wed May 22 03:03:13 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Childbirth, Men and their organs
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 11:03:13 -0400

Laurel/Dolores writes:

><snip> . I had
>every type of pain relief going while in labor with my daughter and I can
>honestly say that I didnt feel a thing. I didnt want to feel a thing.
>
>Yet, I feel cheated, as if I missed something precious in not having seen
>the first few moments of my daughters life..actually I didnt see the first
>few hours. ......<snip>  ..... Medical insensitivity at its greatest.

It is ever curious to me how unwilling we are to face the consquences of our
own choices.  You made a choice, somewhere along the way to have "every type
of pain relief"...and then feel cheated by having "missed something
precious".  One wonders, how you can expect to BE in an experience while
making a conscious choice to NOT BE in the experience.
>
>
>Anyway I digress..on the subject of men, and gender a year or so on the irc
>has taught me two things about them.

This sentence in and of itself is absolutely astonishing....one sits back
from the screen in wonder thinking "a year or so on the irc".....and then
looks in abject horror at what follows.......
>
>First.. only a thin veneer of civilisation seperates a man from total and
>constant communion with his penis.

Really Laurel/Dolores!. The penis is a lovely thing.  There are times it
should be garlanded and adored:  worshipped with eyes, hands, mouth, lips,
tongue.  But those delights aside....<put away your textbooks luvs I am not
in the grips of any kind of penis-envy here, I am perfectly content with my
own parts>....one reels from the sheer parsimony of your statement.  A penis
is a part of a male anatomy.  While it is true they do seem to develop a
rather intimate relationship with it from the moment they discover it bobbing
in the bath water, still it is a part of their body.  Have you never stopped
to consider what it must be like to possess such a thing?  Something so
tender and fragile and yet so powerful, so life- and pleasure- giving.  How
could one NOT be in rather constant awareness of its presence...it has a
presence, a potency, all its own.

> This has been a minor
>revelation..basically men lose all sense of reason and rationalisation when
>the lure of sex beckons.

A rather dishonest, or at the very least, one-sided statement...since many
women "lose all sense of reason and rationalisation when the lure of sex
beckons."..and unless you are about to suggest to us that those men in the
irc chat rooms are discussing sex/having sex with each other <not entirely
out of the question I am sure>...there are, one assumes, women engaged in
conversation with them, and, one assumes, with equal abandon and delight.
 Yet you do not have any disparaging remarks for them, curiously.

>You only have to wander onto some of the sex
>channels to see how motivated they are by the needs of their groins.

Excuse me...one wanders into some of the sex channels and then is...shocked?
 surprised?  that sex is going on?  <laughing uproariously>.  Perhaps one
should wander into the rooms where books and poetry are being discussed.

When the gods want to punish you, they answer your prayers.

Do  you truly not believe that women are also motivated by the needs of their
groins?  Me thinks thou dost deceive yourself.  It has ever been my belief
that the extent to which we are capable of being 'hurt' in a relationship is
directly proportional to the extent to which we choose to be deceived/or to
deceive ourselves.  These protestations of yours are remarkably
self-deceiving.

>Secondly.. I feel sorry for men. Now I have seen them as they truly are, as
>emotional and expressive as women, I pity them the testosterone induced
>machismo that means that in the outside world they are forced to conceal
>these traits.

I have no doubt the men on this list are just rolling over with gratitude by
your deep pity for them.  One wonders how you are to have suddenly discovered
<and in the irc sex chat rooms no less> that men are "as emotional and
expressive as women".  Perhaps you have too long failed to look beneath the
thin veneer that separates you from your own delusions to recognize that we
are all Humans first, and genders second....that our internal, emotional,
intellectual, spiritual selves are very little different from each other.  It
is our bodies, and indeed our hormones, that are different.  <thankfully>.

Do you not, then, ever pity women the rages of their own hormones?  Perhaps
you have not yet come of age to experience the ravages of menopause...or
perhaps you find some way of drugging yourself out of that experience
also...it is possible, as I understand.  If men are "forced to conceal these
<emotional and expressive> traits" do you not think it is because women do
not truly  respond to emotionally expressive men.  Our society is rich with
kind, gentle, caring men....bemoaning that they cannot find a woman who will
appreciate them for these traits...while many women are off tossing
themselves from one destructive relationship to the next, drawn like a moth
to a flame to the very kind of men you say you pity.  It is ever the most
curious of absurdities......equal only, I suppose, to the men who want a
...how does that go...a whore in the bedroom and a virgin in the
kitchen....or some such.  We are all such mysteries to each other,
Laurel/Dolores, it does none of us any service to make these sweeping
generalizations.

Unless, I suppose, one is wont to stir things up a bit.  Toss out a barb now
and then and see what can be aroused.  And sit back and ....watch what
surfaces....like Ivan Karamozov......to be an "eyewitness" to life, rather
than to live it.

> I have noticed that men I have spoken to on the irc, converse
>completely differently alone with me in private chat, than when in a group.
>(no great revelation there). What surprised me however is the depths of
>emotion that men have displayed. In some ways this was a side to men I had
>rarely glimpsed until getting on the net.

It is truly sad that our society is attempting to legislate our lives to the
extent that it is virtually impossible for men and women to converse,
especially in the work force, without fear of reprimand and reprisal, for any
remark, however innocuous.  No longer can "I am terribly sorry, I had not
meant to offend" be followed with "apology accepted, perhaps I
misunderstood".  Instead we rush to courtrooms seeking retribution for wrongs
and harms.  Now our conversations become stilted and empty...and we long for
deeper, more meaningful intercourse.  And it is a sad commentary on our lives
that we must seek disembodied conversation to find the connections we crave.
>
>I cant think how we as women go wrong, since we are the main influences
>bringing up our sons during their most impressionable years. ...<snip> ..
 They hadnt realised the extent to which
>they were conditioned to react and treat the babies differently because of
>their sex.

It is not just gender, it is also age.  I have had people remark how I speak
differently to each of my children, according to their ages..and it is true.
 I relate differently to my sixteen year old son than I do to my 10 year old
daughter.  They are different people, have different interests, have
different needs of me.

I have always encouraged my son, a talented and gifted artist, to nurture his
creative genius.  I have done this consciously knowing the difficulty I am
setting him up for in life.  That he will always struggle with the need to do
his art and the desire to have a wife and children <he has expressed these
desires>.  We have had conversations about "starving artists"..about finding
a life work that will both allow him to do meaningful work and have time to
do his art.  It will not be easy for him.  I watch his struggles to balance
his emotional/creative side with his machismo and it is heartbreaking <and
hilarious at times>.
>
> I think I am going to go out
>and buy my daughter a firemans uniform and a toy truck. I want to teach her
>to be a woman, and I want her to know that that doesnt mean she is any way
>inferior to a man.

I am absolutely at a loss to find any connection to a child being given a
firemans uniform and a toy truck and finding value in ones gender.  I think
perhaps your heart is in the right place, but your reasoning is skewed.  It
is not the dichotomy of choices....it is the richness of choices....it is the
fact of being presented with choices.  If she has at her fingerstips a rich
and wide variety of choices and is allowed to choose for herself, without
subtle pressures to pick one over the other...then her choices become
genuine.  If she is playing with a doll and you say, "wouldn't you rather
play with a truck"....what message does she receive?  That dolls are inferior
to trucks?  What if she happens to really Like dolls?  We are all born into
the lives and genders that are necessary for our spiritual growth...we must
learn to provide each other with unconditioned choices and trust that the
soul knows what the soul needs.

>I want her to revel in her femininity not to be ashamed of it.

What does this mean?  And if you had a son...would you want him to revel in
his masculinity?  And how exactly could he do that, and, to appease his
mother, at the same time remain detached from any awareness of his penis?
 Where in this world is a man allowed to revel in his masculinity?  Why are
women to be given permission to accept and cherish the physical forms of
their bodies, the emotional and intuitive depths of their souls....and men
are to only nurther their emotional sides..because....what?...Laurel?...their
awareness of their physical form makes you uncomfortable?

> I think that
>probably like the class system, the americans are way ahead on issues of
>equality than we are in England.

not bloody likely.

>
>Mostly it saddens me to think that men can never truly be themselves within
>our society. Its as if they always have to conform to the roles that they
>have placed on themselves through the ages, yet for some reason really dont
>want to adopt.

and 'women' are these creatures who are completely "truly" "themselves".
 Puhleeze.
Let's have a little reality check shall we.
Do women not "conform to the roles that they have placed themselves through
the ages"..have we not spent the last few DECADES raging against 'wanting to
adopt" these roles?  The conditions of our lives are a direct result of the
choices me make.  and Not choosing is also a choice.  Allowing ourselves to
become what is expected of us is as much a choice as choosing to go against
the grain.

> I think men would like in all honesty to be more like women,

dear god, tell me it isn't true.  We do not need more women in the world.  We
need more people willing to become whole, centered beings.  People who
delight both in their physical/corporeal self and their emotional/spiritual
self...without shame, without prejudice, without censor, without condition.

>though they probably wouldnt want to admit it in front of other men.

one hopes not.

> Men have a fundamental need to be used that just isnt being catered for,
because
>the norm is that they are the users.

excuse me?  On the basis of WHAT do you make this absurd statement?

> They have a need to feel needed that I
>hadnt suspected before, and a need to be in touch with their emotional
>sides.

yes, dear, they are human.  One wonders out from under which rock you did
just crawl.....

> Course I could be wrong, and this is a lot of generalisation,  but
>these are the impressions I gained. I think irc is a medium that teaches men
>to get in touch with their emotional side and to display it more readily.

as long as they keep their hands out of their laps, we'll all be fine, eh?
>
>The women on this list are in my opinion truly remarkable. They are sure of
>who they are, they arent afraid to express whats truly going on in their
>hearts, and heads, and they express it beautifully. They are confident and
>self assured, and they enjoy being women.  It makes me really proud to be a
>she.

I would say exactly the same of the men of this list and your sexism is not
only insulting and degrading to the intelligent and expressive gentlemen of
this list, it is also nauseating.

If a man is confident and self-assured and enjoys being a man, what does that
make him....conceited?  machismo?  uncivilized?

>I dont think I'd like to be a man, given the choice,  which I wasnt.  I
>certainly couldn't put up with all the posturing, and I certainly couldnt
>put up with shaving every day. Doing my legs once a week is bad enough.
>Course there are some advantages..you can take your shirt off in the summer
>and you dont have to hack away at your armpits with a razor on a regular
>basis.

I for one, would rather spend twenty minutes in conversation with an
uncivilized, testosterone-driven male, then five minutes in the company of a
woman who had nothing to discuss but hair and razors and nail polish and body
wraps and such.  In the former I would at least be amused:  in the later,
bored to tears.

How we chose to maintain our bodies is hardly the ultimate description of the
persons that we are.  The male peacock fans his beautiful feathers and the
female responds.  Some things are the way they are meant to be...and will not
likely change over the eons.  Humans change their feathers constantly, it is
a delightful game.  But one must learn to look past the surface of these
things and be willing to connect with the soul beneath....inspite of hairy
chin or pits.


>I suspect I have annoyed every male on the list.

Which, I suspect, was entirely your point.

Is'e

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Wed May 22 07:28:35 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Chidbirth, Men....
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 15:28:35 -0400 (EDT)

Laurel /Dolores:
>>I suspect I have annoyed every male on the list.
Is'e:
>Which, I suspect, was entirely your point.

Dear Is' e

That exactly was my conclusion.
Thank You for your reflection to Laurel/Dolores mail.

Dear Laurel/Dolores:

I wonder what  will You learn from Lisa's answer?

Respectfully Jurek

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From 100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM Wed May 22 07:43:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Movie metaphore.
From: Jurek Korski <100450.2321@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 15:43:59 -0400 (EDT)

Is'e:
>Perhaps, given Robert's apparent affect on the women of this list, the movie
>"Choose Me" would be a more appropriate metaphor for the list.

Ohhhhh!
Do I see what I see on my screen????!!!!  Women fighting for attention of
men.

What about that Laurel/Dolores?

Movie metaphor?

 What about "Some like it hot" with Tony Curtis, Marilyn Monroe and Jack Lemon.
Jurek

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From judithb@SBC1.COM Wed May 22 09:50:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Men, et al..
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 21:50:02 +0000 (GMT)

Yes wilbur
<There have been quite a few posting's here about men as if what it is to be
a man can be defined in a few pages of email.

It can't.>
absolutely right...none of us can be defined in a few pages of
email...knowing anyone takes engagement and meeting the other person as the
person engages IMO


<By the way, men are what women have wanted over the years, and have
selectively bred into existance, so don't blame us.>
from my perspective blame is unproductive and is fed by fear and unawareness
so I don't engage in it ever...if something I've said has been construed any
other way it was never my intention. I have lived successfully andlovingly in
a predominately male environment since a tiny child. Girls were the enigma to
me.

<After all, we, as men, selectivly bred women into what they are>
and now we are engaged in becoming aware of the ramifications of this. It's a
learning process for me.

Meanwhile I find men fascinating and need masculine energy in my life for
balance. My business partner and I feed each other in an amazing way, in a
dynamic flow which is creating powerful insights in our practice. Great fun!
judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Wed May 22 10:01:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Nothing ever created by rage?
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 22:01:37 GMT

Wilbur you wrote
<Yesterday I was watching a movie and realized that rage is a fundamental
part of courage.

I know that without courage, there is no hope.

Certainly without hope, there are no dreams or progress.

So I have to wonder why a women would claim that something that is a natural
part of us all never created anything useful?

I guess because men have more of it?

Wilbur>

Courage...yes and more yes...When I allowed myself to access my rage it
became part of my process of learning about manifestation. Two women in my
newly forming group of 6 have different responses to their rage. ONe rants
and rages and only recently has learned to move the energy into action other
than the gerbal track routine of rage, release and then back into the cycle.
The other woman goes to despair...I know when I touched my rage I had to face
my ability for retribution...thechoice I made was to engage in the
retribution to the fullest extent as I could muster. Interestingly it
released me from the rage by going thru it. But then nice girls in my
generation were never allowed to express rage...my father would stop anything
out of my mouth that wasn't nice...the proverbial if you can't say anything
nice don't say anything at all. My most release of any rage moment was
emptying the dishwasher one night and breaking every dish on the floor. Egad
that felt good.

I've found that since I allowed myself to touch that part of me I'm more
balanced and centered and my sense of humor has returned...and I don't feel
the rage...it's like I've gone thru some sort of doorway into another
dimension...somehow reorganized myself or was reorganized at a different
level...as if in the acceptance of knowing I was capable of expressing my
shadow coupled with expressing my shadow there was integration...and a
feeling of creativity...and yes it took courage to engage my shadow...
judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Wed May 22 10:05:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: various topics and hair removal
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 22:05:52 GMT

<
Yours

courtesy of Remmington, waxing, sugaring and various creams, lotions and
electrolysis machines

Dolores>
 I've been away as they say so have not located the hair of the dog here
however I pull mine out of my chinychinchin while I hear my mother-probably
hairless in her grave-shaking her finger at me <g>
judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From vicki@BGA.COM Wed May 22 10:34:35 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Men, et al..
From: Vicki Colker <vicki@BGA.COM>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:34:35 -0500

Wilbur --

Hi!  (yes, I'm still here)  Really enjoyed your post.

Vicki

>There have been quite a few posting's here about men as if what it is to be
>a man can be defined in a few pages of email.
>
>It can't.
>
>
>By the way, men are what women have wanted over the years, and have
>selectively bred into existance, so don't blame us.
>
>After all, we, as men, selectivly bred women into what they are.
>
>
>
>And on the idea of knowledge, without humanity, there wouldn't be knowledge,
>in any context.
>
>Wilbur
>---------------------------------------
>Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
>---------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________________________
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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Wed May 22 11:32:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Nothing ever created by rage?
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 19:32:52 -0400

At 10:01 PM 5/21/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Wilbur you wrote
><Yesterday I was watching a movie and realized that rage is a fundamental
>part of courage.
>
>I know that without courage, there is no hope.
>
>Certainly without hope, there are no dreams or progress.
>
>So I have to wonder why a women would claim that something that is a natural
>part of us all never created anything useful?
>
>I guess because men have more of it?
>
>Wilbur>
>
>Courage...yes and more yes...When I allowed myself to access my rage it
>became part of my process of learning about manifestation. Two women in my
>newly forming group of 6 have different responses to their rage. ONe rants
>and rages and only recently has learned to move the energy into action other
>than the gerbal track routine of rage, release and then back into the cycle.
>The other woman goes to despair...I know when I touched my rage I had to face
>my ability for retribution...thechoice I made was to engage in the
>retribution to the fullest extent as I could muster. Interestingly it
>released me from the rage by going thru it.

And probably resolved more than a few issues.  If I'm not mistaken, the
person that was saying that rage never solved anything has plenty of
repressed rage, and is involved in what I would call a deceitful
relationship as a result.  But, shhh, let's not tell her.  I don't want to
deal with that rage, do you?

>But then nice girls in my
>generation were never allowed to express rage...my father would stop anything
>out of my mouth that wasn't nice...the proverbial if you can't say anything
>nice don't say anything at all.

That went for this boy also.

>My most release of any rage moment was
>emptying the dishwasher one night and breaking every dish on the floor. Egad
>that felt good.

I've noticed that my girlfriend explodes also.
Perhaps I need to rile her up more often to get it out?  But that sounds
dangerous.  Perhaps long walks..

>
>I've found that since I allowed myself to touch that part of me I'm more
>balanced and centered and my sense of humor has returned...

That's been my experience also.. but it doesn't always make me the center of
the party.  On the other hand, I've had people marvel at how witty I am,
because I pass a lot of my rage and anger off in sarcasm.

>and I don't feel the rage

Maybe you mean that it's not there gnawing at you all the time?

>...it's like I've gone thru some sort of doorway into another
>dimension...somehow reorganized myself or was reorganized at a different
>level...

Been there, done that.  I had a traumatic childhood, and could only release
my emotions in adulthood, when I was safe.  Of course, now that I've had
them locked up for 20 years, it's not like they come out without pain and a
bit of newness..

>as if in the acceptance of knowing I was capable of expressing my
>shadow coupled with expressing my shadow there was integration...and a
>feeling of creativity...

I've had more and more people call me creative in the last few years..

>and yes it took courage to engage my shadow...

That it does.  Not many find that courage.  I often wonder if those that
don't engage their shadow ever really live?

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Wed May 22 12:59:20 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa..oh joy..
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 01:59:20 +0100

Dear Lisa, I use the term dear losely,

>>every type of pain relief going while in labor with my daughter and I can
>>honestly say that I didnt feel a thing. I didnt want to feel a thing.
>>
>>Yet, I feel cheated, as if I missed something precious in not having seen
>>the first few moments of my daughters life..actually I didnt see the first
>>few hours. ......<snip>  ..... Medical insensitivity at its greatest.
>
>It is ever curious to me how unwilling we are to face the consquences of our
>own choices.  You made a choice, somewhere along the way to have "every type
>of pain relief"...and then feel cheated by having "missed something
>precious".  One wonders, how you can expect to BE in an experience while
>making a conscious choice to NOT BE in the experience.
>
>Obviously you didnt bother reading what I had written properly, one wonders
why you continued to read at all. What I missed wasnt the pain, which I
didnt want, nor given the choice would ever want, but the contact between
myself and my daughter after birth. Do try if your going to pick up on a
point to pay more attention to what the point actually was.

>>
>>Anyway I digress..on the subject of men, and gender a year or so on the irc
>>has taught me two things about them.
>
>This sentence in and of itself is absolutely astonishing....one sits back
>from the screen in wonder thinking "a year or so on the irc".....and then
>looks in abject horror at what follows.......
>>
>Of course its astonishing, most of what I write is astonishing, if only
people would bother reading it properly. And what precisely are you in
abject horror of ?

>>First.. only a thin veneer of civilisation seperates a man from total and
>>constant communion with his penis.
>
>Really Laurel/Dolores!. The penis is a lovely thing.  There are times it
>should be garlanded and adored:  worshipped with eyes, hands, mouth, lips,
>tongue.  But those delights aside....<put away your textbooks luvs I am not
>in the grips of any kind of penis-envy here, I am perfectly content with my
>own parts>....one reels from the sheer parsimony of your statement.  A penis
>is a part of a male anatomy.  While it is true they do seem to develop a
>rather intimate relationship with it from the moment they discover it bobbing
>in the bath water, still it is a part of their body.  Have you never stopped
>to consider what it must be like to possess such a thing?  Something so
>tender and fragile and yet so powerful, so life- and pleasure- giving.  How
>could one NOT be in rather constant awareness of its presence...it has a
>presence, a potency, all its own.
>
>Of course.. a wonderous thing indeed. I am trying to work out what your
point is here?  Your answer is a total non sequitur. I implied that men were
unable to conciously control their sexual impulses. You are saying, that the
penis is a truly wonderous thing. This fails to address the point I'd made
although I agree with your statement.

>> This has been a minor
>>revelation..basically men lose all sense of reason and rationalisation when
>>the lure of sex beckons.
>
>A rather dishonest, or at the very least, one-sided statement...since many
>women "lose all sense of reason and rationalisation when the lure of sex
>beckons."..and unless you are about to suggest to us that those men in the
>irc chat rooms are discussing sex/having sex with each other <not entirely
>out of the question I am sure>...there are, one assumes, women engaged in
>conversation with them, and, one assumes, with equal abandon and delight.
> Yet you do not have any disparaging remarks for them, curiously.
>
>Have you ever stopped to count the number of male nicks on irc or sex
chatlines.
You will find that the number of men outweighs the number of women by 40%.
Although women are equally capable of feeling sexual desire as men, they
certainly appear to flaunt that desire in fewer numbers.  I was speaking in
generalisation (Please refer to the bottom of my last message) My premise
threfore stands.

>>You only have to wander onto some of the sex
>>channels to see how motivated they are by the needs of their groins.
>
>Excuse me...one wanders into some of the sex channels and then is...shocked?
> surprised?  that sex is going on?  <laughing uproariously>.  Perhaps one
>should wander into the rooms where books and poetry are being discussed.
>
>I wish you would read my text carefully before going off half cocked (no
pun intended) and replying. I mentioned the existance of sex channels purely
as an illustration of the number of men to whom those channels appeal. I
didnt go there to read Byron.

>When the gods want to punish you, they answer your prayers.
>
>When the gods want to punish you, they send you men.
>
>Do  you truly not believe that women are also motivated by the needs of their
>groins?  Me thinks thou dost deceive yourself.  It has ever been my belief
>that the extent to which we are capable of being 'hurt' in a relationship is
>directly proportional to the extent to which we choose to be deceived/or to
>deceive ourselves.  These protestations of yours are remarkably
>self-deceiving.
>
>I am sure you only speak for yourself. In my experience (and in the
experience of many eminment and biologists, for example Richard Dwarkins and
Robin Baker to name but two) the primary function of men is to sire as many
offspring as they can.
The primary function of women is to give birth to the strongest offspring
that they can. Each method ensures the strongest chance of survival for the
genetic line of that gender. It therefore follows, that men tend to be (on
average) more sexually active than women who are more specific with whom
they chose to breed.
I believe that the person who is decieved is you. I appear to have a better
understanding of men than you do (biologically and otherwise)

>>Secondly.. I feel sorry for men. Now I have seen them as they truly are, as
>>emotional and expressive as women, I pity them the testosterone induced
>>machismo that means that in the outside world they are forced to conceal
>>these traits.
>
>I have no doubt the men on this list are just rolling over with gratitude by
>your deep pity for them.  One wonders how you are to have suddenly discovered
><and in the irc sex chat rooms no less> that men are "as emotional and
>expressive as women".  Perhaps you have too long failed to look beneath the
>thin veneer that separates you from your own delusions to recognize that we
>are all Humans first, and genders second....that our internal, emotional,
>intellectual, spiritual selves are very little different from each other.  It
>is our bodies, and indeed our hormones, that are different.  <thankfully>.
>
>1. You will recall I hope Stephens reply.
>2. Again, you continue to put your own gloss on the text actually written.
I discovered men to be emotional in private conversation with them on a
variety of channels not specifically sex channels.
3.Men and women, although human, are emotionally different. This is largely
due to the different concentration of hormones in their bodies. It is
specious to suggest that they are identical only because they are human
beings. By analogy, this is like saying a foxterrier is like a Great Dane
because they are dogs.

>Do you not, then, ever pity women the rages of their own hormones?  Perhaps
>you have not yet come of age to experience the ravages of menopause...or
>perhaps you find some way of drugging yourself out of that experience
>also...it is possible, as I understand.  If men are "forced to conceal these
><emotional and expressive> traits" do you not think it is because women do
>not truly  respond to emotionally expressive men.  Our society is rich with
>kind, gentle, caring men....bemoaning that they cannot find a woman who will
>appreciate them for these traits...while many women are off tossing
>themselves from one destructive relationship to the next, drawn like a moth
>to a flame to the very kind of men you say you pity.  It is ever the most
>curious of absurdities......equal only, I suppose, to the men who want a
>...how does that go...a whore in the bedroom and a virgin in the
>kitchen....or some such.  We are all such mysteries to each other,
>Laurel/Dolores, it does none of us any service to make these sweeping
>generalizations.
>
I have not experienced the "ravages" of menopause yet. I intend to grow old
gracefully.
Men are conditioned to conceal their emotions because they have always
traditionally been the breadwinners and guardians of the family unit. Women
may or may not be attracted to a particular character type. However, the
biological drive of women would necessarily guide them towards to seeking
out a male who will protect the family unit by force of strength if
required. The natural conclusion is that a woman will seek out the *strong*
successfull man to give her offspring the best possible chance of survival.
The expression you were unsuccesessfully searching for is taken from the Rig
Veda which is a Hindu text. "The perfect wife is a Queen in the living
chamber, a slave in the kitchen, and a whore in the bedroom"
I find it baffling as to why you believe that this is a mystery since all
the major religions have been and are dominated by men. The expression I
have just quoted to you epitomises a mans ideal wife from his point of view.
Your generalisations have been as sweeping as mine. I however specifically
pointed out that the statements I was making were general in nature.

>Unless, I suppose, one is wont to stir things up a bit.  Toss out a barb now
>and then and see what can be aroused.  And sit back and ....watch what
>surfaces....like Ivan Karamozov......to be an "eyewitness" to life, rather
>than to live it.
>
>And it had exactly the result I intended...

>> I have noticed that men I have spoken to on the irc, converse
>>completely differently alone with me in private chat, than when in a group.
>>(no great revelation there). What surprised me however is the depths of
>>emotion that men have displayed. In some ways this was a side to men I had
>>rarely glimpsed until getting on the net.
>
>It is truly sad that our society is attempting to legislate our lives to the
>extent that it is virtually impossible for men and women to converse,
>especially in the work force, without fear of reprimand and reprisal, for any
>remark, however innocuous.  No longer can "I am terribly sorry, I had not
>meant to offend" be followed with "apology accepted, perhaps I
>misunderstood".  Instead we rush to courtrooms seeking retribution for wrongs
>and harms.  Now our conversations become stilted and empty...and we long for
>deeper, more meaningful intercourse.  And it is a sad commentary on our lives
>that we must seek disembodied conversation to find the connections we crave.
>>
>This is the first comment of yours that I agree with wholeheartedly. The
workplace is where modern man and woman spend the majority of their lives
and therefore one would expect it to be the place which encompasses not just
the achievement of a capitalist goal but brimming with the fullness of all
of the interplay between men and women.
It is a sad testament to our way of life that we are losing the richness of
sexual interplay that makes us a higher form of animal with a breath of
experience that now we are trying to marginalise.


Unfortunatly my email has been out of action all day so I got this very
late..way too late despite the temptation for me to stay and finish.

Do allow me the pleasure of continuing tommorow and believe me it will be a
pleasure.. Allow or not I will anyway.

Dolores

Oh and dont bother replying to this yet..I have saved the best till last.

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Wed May 22 13:01:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa..oh joy..
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:01:46 +0100

Dear Lisa, I use the term dear losely,

>>every type of pain relief going while in labor with my daughter and I can
>>honestly say that I didnt feel a thing. I didnt want to feel a thing.
>>
>>Yet, I feel cheated, as if I missed something precious in not having seen
>>the first few moments of my daughters life..actually I didnt see the first
>>few hours. ......<snip>  ..... Medical insensitivity at its greatest.
>
>It is ever curious to me how unwilling we are to face the consquences of our
>own choices.  You made a choice, somewhere along the way to have "every type
>of pain relief"...and then feel cheated by having "missed something
>precious".  One wonders, how you can expect to BE in an experience while
>making a conscious choice to NOT BE in the experience.
>
>Obviously you didnt bother reading what I had written properly, one wonders
why you continued to read at all. What I missed wasnt the pain, which I
didnt want, nor given the choice would ever want, but the contact between
myself and my daughter after birth. Do try, if your going to pick up on a
point to pay more attention to what the point actually was.

>>
>>Anyway I digress..on the subject of men, and gender a year or so on the irc
>>has taught me two things about them.
>
>This sentence in and of itself is absolutely astonishing....one sits back
>from the screen in wonder thinking "a year or so on the irc".....and then
>looks in abject horror at what follows.......
>>
>Of course its astonishing, most of what I write is astonishing, if only
people would bother reading it properly. And what precisely are you in
abject horror of ?

>>First.. only a thin veneer of civilisation seperates a man from total and
>>constant communion with his penis.
>
>Really Laurel/Dolores!. The penis is a lovely thing.  There are times it
>should be garlanded and adored:  worshipped with eyes, hands, mouth, lips,
>tongue.  But those delights aside....<put away your textbooks luvs I am not
>in the grips of any kind of penis-envy here, I am perfectly content with my
>own parts>....one reels from the sheer parsimony of your statement.  A penis
>is a part of a male anatomy.  While it is true they do seem to develop a
>rather intimate relationship with it from the moment they discover it bobbing
>in the bath water, still it is a part of their body.  Have you never stopped
>to consider what it must be like to possess such a thing?  Something so
>tender and fragile and yet so powerful, so life- and pleasure- giving.  How
>could one NOT be in rather constant awareness of its presence...it has a
>presence, a potency, all its own.
>
>Of course.. a wonderous thing indeed. I am trying to work out what your
point is here?  Your answer is a total non sequitur. I implied that men were
unable to conciously control their sexual impulses. You are saying, that the
penis is a truly wonderous thing. This fails to address the point I'd made
although I agree with your statement.

>> This has been a minor
>>revelation..basically men lose all sense of reason and rationalisation when
>>the lure of sex beckons.
>
>A rather dishonest, or at the very least, one-sided statement...since many
>women "lose all sense of reason and rationalisation when the lure of sex
>beckons."..and unless you are about to suggest to us that those men in the
>irc chat rooms are discussing sex/having sex with each other <not entirely
>out of the question I am sure>...there are, one assumes, women engaged in
>conversation with them, and, one assumes, with equal abandon and delight.
> Yet you do not have any disparaging remarks for them, curiously.
>
>Have you ever stopped to count the number of male nicks on irc or sex
chatlines.
You will find that the number of men outweighs the number of women by 40%.
Although women are equally capable of feeling sexual desire as men, they
certainly appear to flaunt that desire in fewer numbers.  I was speaking in
generalisation (Please refer to the bottom of my last message) My premise
threfore stands.

>>You only have to wander onto some of the sex
>>channels to see how motivated they are by the needs of their groins.
>
>Excuse me...one wanders into some of the sex channels and then is...shocked?
> surprised?  that sex is going on?  <laughing uproariously>.  Perhaps one
>should wander into the rooms where books and poetry are being discussed.
>
>I wish you would read my text carefully before going off half cocked (no
pun intended) and replying. I mentioned the existance of sex channels purely
as an illustration of the number of men to whom those channels appeal. I
didnt go there to read Byron.

>When the gods want to punish you, they answer your prayers.
>
>When the gods want to punish you, they send you men.
>
>Do  you truly not believe that women are also motivated by the needs of their
>groins?  Me thinks thou dost deceive yourself.  It has ever been my belief
>that the extent to which we are capable of being 'hurt' in a relationship is
>directly proportional to the extent to which we choose to be deceived/or to
>deceive ourselves.  These protestations of yours are remarkably
>self-deceiving.
>
>I am sure you only speak for yourself. In my experience (and in the
experience of many eminment and biologists, for example Richard Dwarkins and
Robin Baker to name but two) the primary function of men is to sire as many
offspring as they can.
The primary function of women is to give birth to the strongest offspring
that they can. Each method ensures the strongest chance of survival for the
genetic line of that gender. It therefore follows, that men tend to be (on
average) more sexually active than women who are more specific with whom
they chose to breed.
I believe that the person who is decieved is you. I appear to have a better
understanding of men than you do (biologically and otherwise)

>>Secondly.. I feel sorry for men. Now I have seen them as they truly are, as
>>emotional and expressive as women, I pity them the testosterone induced
>>machismo that means that in the outside world they are forced to conceal
>>these traits.
>
>I have no doubt the men on this list are just rolling over with gratitude by
>your deep pity for them.  One wonders how you are to have suddenly discovered
><and in the irc sex chat rooms no less> that men are "as emotional and
>expressive as women".  Perhaps you have too long failed to look beneath the
>thin veneer that separates you from your own delusions to recognize that we
>are all Humans first, and genders second....that our internal, emotional,
>intellectual, spiritual selves are very little different from each other.  It
>is our bodies, and indeed our hormones, that are different.  <thankfully>.
>
>1. You will recall I hope Stephens reply.
>2. Again, you continue to put your own gloss on the text actually written.
I discovered men to be emotional in private conversation with them on a
variety of channels not specifically sex channels.
3.Men and women, although human, are emotionally different. This is largely
due to the different concentration of hormones in their bodies. It is
specious to suggest that they are identical only because they are human
beings. By analogy, this is like saying a foxterrier is like a Great Dane
because they are dogs.

>Do you not, then, ever pity women the rages of their own hormones?  Perhaps
>you have not yet come of age to experience the ravages of menopause...or
>perhaps you find some way of drugging yourself out of that experience
>also...it is possible, as I understand.  If men are "forced to conceal these
><emotional and expressive> traits" do you not think it is because women do
>not truly  respond to emotionally expressive men.  Our society is rich with
>kind, gentle, caring men....bemoaning that they cannot find a woman who will
>appreciate them for these traits...while many women are off tossing
>themselves from one destructive relationship to the next, drawn like a moth
>to a flame to the very kind of men you say you pity.  It is ever the most
>curious of absurdities......equal only, I suppose, to the men who want a
>...how does that go...a whore in the bedroom and a virgin in the
>kitchen....or some such.  We are all such mysteries to each other,
>Laurel/Dolores, it does none of us any service to make these sweeping
>generalizations.
>
I have not experienced the "ravages" of menopause yet. I intend to grow old
gracefully.
Men are conditioned to conceal their emotions because they have always
traditionally been the breadwinners and guardians of the family unit. Women
may or may not be attracted to a particular character type. However, the
biological drive of women would necessarily guide them towards to seeking
out a male who will protect the family unit by force of strength if
required. The natural conclusion is that a woman will seek out the *strong*
successfull man to give her offspring the best possible chance of survival.
The expression you were unsuccesessfully searching for is taken from the Rig
Veda which is a Hindu text. "The perfect wife is a Queen in the living
chamber, a slave in the kitchen, and a whore in the bedroom"
I find it baffling as to why you believe that this is a mystery since all
the major religions have been and are dominated by men. The expression I
have just quoted to you epitomises a mans ideal wife from his point of view.
Your generalisations have been as sweeping as mine. I however specifically
pointed out that the statements I was making were general in nature.

>Unless, I suppose, one is wont to stir things up a bit.  Toss out a barb now
>and then and see what can be aroused.  And sit back and ....watch what
>surfaces....like Ivan Karamozov......to be an "eyewitness" to life, rather
>than to live it.
>
>And it had exactly the result I intended...

>> I have noticed that men I have spoken to on the irc, converse
>>completely differently alone with me in private chat, than when in a group.
>>(no great revelation there). What surprised me however is the depths of
>>emotion that men have displayed. In some ways this was a side to men I had
>>rarely glimpsed until getting on the net.
>
>It is truly sad that our society is attempting to legislate our lives to the
>extent that it is virtually impossible for men and women to converse,
>especially in the work force, without fear of reprimand and reprisal, for any
>remark, however innocuous.  No longer can "I am terribly sorry, I had not
>meant to offend" be followed with "apology accepted, perhaps I
>misunderstood".  Instead we rush to courtrooms seeking retribution for wrongs
>and harms.  Now our conversations become stilted and empty...and we long for
>deeper, more meaningful intercourse.  And it is a sad commentary on our lives
>that we must seek disembodied conversation to find the connections we crave.
>>
>This is the first comment of yours that I agree with wholeheartedly. The
workplace is where modern man and woman spend the majority of their lives
and therefore one would expect it to be the place which encompasses not just
the achievement of a capitalist goal but brimming with the fullness of all
of the interplay between men and women.
It is a sad testament to our way of life that we are losing the richness of
sexual interplay that makes us a higher form of animal with a breath of
experience that now we are trying to marginalise.


Unfortunatly my email has been out of action all day so I got this very
late..way too late despite the temptation for me to stay and finish.

Do allow me the pleasure of continuing tommorow and believe me it will be a
pleasure..

Dolores

Oh and dont bother replying to this yet..I have deliberatly saved the best
till last.

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Wed May 22 13:09:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Chidbirth, Men....
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 02:09:36 +0100

Dear Jurek..

Oh a number of things...

Wonder what she will learn with my reply

Dolores

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Wed May 22 14:45:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa..oh joy..
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 22:45:17 -0400

Dolores:

>>When the gods want to punish you, they send you men.

Your anger is palpable.  I hope you work through it.

Is'e

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From vicki@BGA.COM Wed May 22 15:03:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa..oh joy..
From: Vicki Colker <vicki@BGA.COM>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 22:03:00 -0500

 Dear Laurel,

First, I'd like for you to know that I *did* read your text carefully, and,
I believe, with a high level of comprehension.  Nevertheless, I still take
issue with you on a number of the same points as I'se does in her letter.

Furthermore, I was saddened to see the tone you adopted in your answer to
her remarks.  I thought Psyber-L was a forum for discussion, not a platform
for spiteful argument.

Since I have a limited amount of time in which to write this evening, I'd
like to address just one of your remarks that I found particularly
spiteful.

I'se wrote:
>>When the gods want to punish you, they answer your prayers.
>>

And you answered:
>>When the gods want to punish you, they send you men.

Oh, Laurel. . . what a bitter statement.  Your disregard of men  is truly
formidable.  Perhaps you have experienced difficult relationships. . . I am
sorry for that.

But I wanted to state, for the record, that I think men are gifts,
treasures. . . as are women.  I have been graced with the presence of
wonderful men  (and women) in my life.  (Thank you, gods!  Don't stop now!)
And any generalizations we make about each other, instead of recognizing
the unique individuality of each of us, cheapen us as members of humanity.

Vicki

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From judithb@SBC1.COM Wed May 22 19:50:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Nothing ever created by rage?
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 07:50:38 +0000 (GMT)

<.I know when I touched my rage I had to face
>my ability for retribution...thechoice I made was to engage in the
>retribution to the fullest extent as I could muster. Interestingly it
>released me from the rage by going thru it.

And probably resolved more than a few issues.  If I'm not mistaken, the
person that was saying that rage never solved anything has plenty of
repressed rage, and is involved in what I would call a deceitful
relationship as a result.  But, shhh, let's not tell her.  I don't want to
deal with that rage, do you?>
now, now Wilbur, I don't know about you but I've lived a lot making a choice
not to look at something because it wasn't time yet, later when I felt ready
to open to the lesson I did it. I use to say I had those issues in little
ribbon tied boxes in my inner closet and would take one out at a time to work
on.

My take on any issue is that each of us has taken on certain universal and I
suppose archetypal issue. Right now I know I am engaged in amping someone's
jeolousy issue. Jeolousy isn't one of my issues -envy has been-. Anyway I
think the rage I have felt as the first time I encountered the shadow of the
patriarchy which was a blind spot for me is tapping into the collective rage,
so I have a personaluniversal framing of all issues. In my work with coaching
clients who are opening I find not all people have all issues. I livedcoached
a woman for 2 years who had the most whelming rage at men which she played
out with a relationship with a very well known Saudi-I mean she was
confronting a version of the wester patriarch thru that culture-it was
breathtaking.

<<>But then nice girls in my
>generation were never allowed to express rage...my father would stop
anything
>out of my mouth that wasn't nice...the proverbial if you can't say anything
>nice don't say anything at all.

That went for this boy also>>
wow, I hadn't experienced this in a man. My then husband of 21 years was
filled with unacknowledged rage which came out in his
competitiveness...interesting his code of ethics was around humility, but now
that you mention it maybe it was *being nice* in disguise.

>My most release of any rage moment was
>emptying the dishwasher one night and breaking every dish on the floor. Egad
>that felt good.

I've noticed that my girlfriend explodes also.
Perhaps I need to rile her up more often to get it out?  But that sounds
dangerous.  Perhaps long walks..>
I have been living in my dishtosssing glow for many years. I think explosion
is fine as well as long walks. My healer talks about emotions and says they
are like weather fronts, they come, stay awhile and move on. It feels
cyclical to me in a way and I think the trick at least the one that is
working for me is to breath into the cycles and give myself permission to
toss a dish if the spirit <g> moves me.
To me the framing continues to be to hold personaluniversal and the awareness
of the participation in the evolving consciousness, but that is my belief
system.
BTW dancing is a great explosion. I use Professor Trance and his Trance
Dancer CD.
Judith

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From judithb@SBC1.COM Wed May 22 20:05:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Nothing ever created by rage?
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:05:45 +0000 (GMT)

Continuing a bit more, wilbur,
,
>and I don't feel the rage

Maybe you mean that it's not there gnawing at you all the time?>
Actually what I mean is that I process what it is attached to and in the
integration the rage feels like it dissolves. In my experience I don't live
in rage, but when issues get amped it seems to be apart of it, though as I
said my Enegram is 4 and the romantic goes to dispair, so my emotional
content comes out as dispair. I think ala Bateson it is a question of
differentiation. Because I am kinesthetic and my early years spent mostly out
of my body as a way not to feel the pain and to be productive, I have had to
learn to stay in my body and move the energy physically. When I dance it
meaning movement or sing it meaning sound and I'm in my body I find I can
participate in the cellular reorganization-it feels like every cell is
recalculating when I get that click which I guess is another wording of
healing.

>...it's like I've gone thru some sort of doorway into another
>dimension...somehow reorganized myself or was reorganized at a different
>level...

Been there, done that.  I had a traumatic childhood, and could only release
my emotions in adulthood, when I was safe.  Of course, now that I've had
them locked up for 20 years, it's not like they come out without pain and a
bit of newness..>
When I was 20 and I'm 55 now, I had a universal intervention which gave me
the clue as to how to work my trauma. He engaged my great puzzle sense saying
you can take these pills for the rest of your life or *you can figure it out
for yourself.* That was a revelation. I thought *you mean I can figure it out
for myself?* So off I merrily and painfully went to do just that. I thought
about how to do it and I came up with the idea that I would put me in a box
and take out a *piece* ofme and create experience which would amp that piece
so I could *see* what it was attached to. When I found the belief system I
would then work onit until I could get to the source and then in my metaphor
I would take the wire out and stick it into the place I wanted. It was like I
was creating a new me...7 years later I had 2 mes, no longer having bouts of
complete emotional paralysis. Of course having a son to focus on kept me
going. Anyway, the scary part came when I had to reintegrate the 2
mes...that's another story for another time.

When I coach people I ask them what fascinates them and usually in that I can
find the key they need to *figure it out for themselves.* Mine continues to
be puzzles and how the toaster works.

thanks Wilbur. I enjoyed this.
Judith

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From judithb@SBC1.COM Wed May 22 20:32:26 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa..oh joy..
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@SBC1.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:32:26 +0000 (GMT)

Excuse me for interjecting  but Vicki your comment resonates to what I have
been experiencing in reading your comments, Laurel. I read the biological
explanations of men and women given by Laurel, yet my experience is more that
of Vicki's which feels like it comes from a different locus of origin. I am a
woman going thru menopause sans any hormone therapy and *enjoying* the sense
of womanness which it brings. There is a deepening - dare I say
spiritual-sense in holding this experience in a biologicalspiritual space.
Since I never bore a child, I consciously chose to adopt, I wanted to have
this experience of womanness and it is bringing me to creativity beyond the
biological which I think is the point. For me to have doctors describe my
experience in purely physical terms is only seeing the tail of the elephant.
In my view Laurel you have a dfferent *assignment* in this universe than I
have and I think it's a biggie...I lived with a roommate who had the same
assignment...we sure sat for hours talking about it.
I can't find the exact phrase about men and their sexual urges, but my
experience growing up in the 50s was that girls were assigned the task of
controlling the young man's sexual urges which meant supressing one's own in
the bargain. The roommate I spoke of spent years in Saudi Arabia where the
women were covered up specifically not to evoke the mans sexuality. So could
it be that the universal we are shifting is around taking individual
responsibility for one's own sexual responses?
2 woman friends of mine,one living with and one engaged to, are experiencing
the men in their lives choosing not to engage physically in a purposeful
means of deeping their relationship before consumating. They have spoken of
their awareness of how their biological drive has usurped their move into
intimacy in the past so they are consciously choosing a different experience
and these are young men in their late 20s. Blew me away to speak with them.
judith
<Oh, Laurel. . . what a bitter statement.  Your disregard of men  is truly
formidable.  Perhaps you have experienced difficult relationships. . . I am
sorry for that.

But I wanted to state, for the record, that I think men are gifts,
treasures. . . as are women.  I have been graced with the presence of
wonderful men  (and women) in my life.  (Thank you, gods!  Don't stop now!)
And any generalizations we make about each other, instead of recognizing
the unique individuality of each of us, cheapen us as members of humanity.

Vicki>



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From judithb@sbc1.com Wed May 22 20:57:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Starving artists
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:57:05 GMT

Is'e,
If I may...
<I have always encouraged my son, a talented and gifted artist, to nurture
his
creative genius.  I have done this consciously knowing the difficulty I am
setting him up for in life.>

I wonder at what you may be setting up here. Starving artist for me is an
archetypal resonance and not all artist starve. I have just spent a year at
the Cleveland Institute of Art amazed at the bed of creativity. And I've
notice there are those who embrace the starving artist image and those who do
their art expecting to make a living at it. I went into the artistic closet
when I was in 6th grade when Mrs Chandler drew on my sphnix, came out 45
years later in a night class in paper making. I just returned from NYC where
I sold my paper to a huge store in SOHO. I just know I will earn a living
doing this.
I say this in the kindest way because my father told me as a young girl with
a huge operatic voice that I would not be able to make a living at it and
that stuck with me and eventually I allowed it to put me into fear and I
didn't go for it.Years later a well known voice teacher musician shook his
head and said if only we had met 20 years ago, you have a career operatic
voice.
So, Is'e, I love that you are sensative and encouraging however, I just want
to caution against planting seeds of self fulfillment.There are thousand of
artists making a living and raising families, often with spouses who support
and assist.
<  That he will always struggle with the need to do
his art and the desire to have a wife and children <he has expressed these
desires>.  We have had conversations about "starving artists"..about finding
a life work that will both allow him to do meaningful work and have time to
do his art.  It will not be easy for him.>
Why not do the meaningful art work and take a part time job?I don't believe
any life is *easy.* In another iteration of mine, I went back to school after
quiting a 70thousand plus traveling sales job and took acting classes. 18
months later I negotiated for my equity card, worked and earned a living, yes
with spousal support, as a professional actor. In a funny twist later when
the roles subsided as I approached 50 I returned to school to get my masters,
a student loan AND the money I made acting, suddenly roles reappeared, for a
year paid my bills.
For every starving artist story which I think is mythic ala La Bohiem, there
are those not starving. It is the passion which people relate to and the
universe responds to this also.
My young next door neighbor had a passion for geology in the 80s and his
father a lawyer said he'd never make a living at it and to go into business
shcool. Over the fense I secretly conversed with him about his passion and we
talked for many weeks. What I said to him was that people have multiple
careers and a large percentage, I had read at one time 90, of the people
graduating from college 10 years later were not working in the field they
studied, so I said what's the diff. Take geology because you love it and hold
that intention and if it doesn't work you'll know it. Today he is a geologist
in the west somewhere happily married with a child.
I think there is something deeper working.
<  I watch his struggles to balance
his emotional/creative side with his machismo and it is heartbreaking <and
hilarious at times>.>
yes aren't we all...struggling and hilarious at times <g>

In respect,
Judith
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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Wed May 22 21:22:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa..oh joy..
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:22:00 +0100

Criticism of Dolores's and my articles
--------------------------------------


Lisa, I am rather perplexed at what I have just read from you;

I will wait myself until Dolores has had the chance to finish her reply
from yesterday to you before commenting further myself on the
nitty-gritty, but I nonetheless stand deeply puzzled by your remarks -

1. Were you not able to read my own reply to Laurel / Dolores? In case
you didnt a copy is on it's way with this to you; in reading your comments it
seems clear to me that you have taken little I said myself in reply to Dolores
on board -

2. As I have said I have found an *enormous* amount in what Dolores has
said and I found her insight keen, her motives noble and genuine, her honesty
sincere and deeply touching, and the extent to which the thoughts and
ideas she has shared with me of such enchantingly powerful scope that I have
simply been blown away with gratitude, respect and deep feeling towards her
powerful insights.

3. My own articles came from the heart also and I would like to express
my sincere and heartfelt belief, feeling and opinion that Dolores's sharing
of herself, her experience and her insights was a genuine, sincere and
loving act - something which has meant a great deal to me and to others. I
would like to be taken on trust in my own sincerity here with what I have
said, and to continue to feel that Psybernet is an open, friendly place where
we *can* be deeply honest about our experiences and our thoughts - as I said
when I finally came out of the lurking closet a few weeks back, it has been
that charming quality of this place which I have found greatly endearing
about Psybernet; I also think the trust, openness and compassion we have for
each other here is a very valuable thing which we should cherish and nurture.

4. I trust Dolores, I admire her, I resonate with her, I respect her and
I like her. I am touched, inspired, enchanted and enthralled by the lovely
things we have shared with each other - and I am too jealous of the so
very positive, aching feelings of love, compassion and soulmateship I feel
with her words, her cyberpresence and herself to let your article spoil those
things for me Lisa. I see in Dolores an integrity of spirit, mind and
character which shines like few things I've encountered - you can ignore that
light, you can throw hate at it, you can sidestep it or you can make fun of us
as we notice and cherish it's powerful love  ourselves -
you can poke fun at us, use sarcasm, take our words and meanings out of
context or whilst ignoring the points we make imply we are breaking one
or other social convention or taboo when in reality we are just reaching
out with love and an open heart to each other and to the world in general.

You can misunderstand, misrepresent, ignore, slander and condemn that Light-
but you cant turn it out with hate, sarcasm, ridicule, Nihilism or petty
insults.

I earnestly hope that that was not your intention - to spoil my and
others experience of Laurel's IMO  so very positive thoughts - and that you
will take my own comments here as they are intended, a genuine request for
acceptance, belief in my own and Laurel's sincerity and a return to the
compassionate resonance I have felt and enjoyed  here on Psybernet.

5. I intend to reply fully to your comments in due course, but I will
let Dolores reply for herself first of all - I have found Dolores to be one
lady who certainly doesnt need some big man to defend her... and I
give a large 'Me Too' to what she has said in reply to you yesterday.

6. I feel bad about saying all this when you may not have read my own
comments for whatever reason; I try and make an 'ecology check' with my own
articles and e-mails and if they dont have a strong positive content bias
over my own anger / frustration I dont post them.
I found Dolores's articles very positive and uplifting as I have said and
have extensively pointed out in a full critical reply; I hope that this one
of mine has a positive effect on you and on everyone here, namely that you
will accept Dolores's and my sincerity, positive intent and our genuine wish
to be kind, gentle and compassionate with you and everyone here.

All this said, I must say that had I written something as - and I am
loathe to use these words but I believe they are appropriate in this case
- spiteful, humbug, sidestepping and unfair as your reply to Dolores I would
not have posted it;

I give classes in netiquette and acceptable use and had one of my
students made such ad-hominem attacks and malicious criticism, I would have
roasted them.

With this article, whilst I have not compromised on how strongly I feel
about your article and the damaging effect it could have had on the
overwhelmingly positive and loving feelings I have for these discussions
and which have been stimulated by Dolores's courage, openness and honesty
in sharing her insight with me, I want to make it clear that I am not
just paying lipservice or trying to score points when I say that I would
like to be on friendly terms with you, to discuss safely and comfortably
the positive contributions you and your opinions and experience have to
bring to these discussions - I sincerely request you to read my own article
and make a positive response to it.

7. To the group in general:

Despite an initial rage and indignation at Lisa's article, I dont now feel
angry at her - just sorry for her.

- Sorry she took such a beautiful series of thoughts and insights and
that this  was her response.

- Sorry that when we reach out with love, compassion
and kindness in our hearts and mouths that she has to cling onto the
hate thought-patterns and resist it with sarcasm and ad-hominem attacks
when she cant win intellectually -

- and if I am honest, sorry that Dolores
has had to read  something like that and may feel sad over it; I felt
a strong pang of anger and considered pressing the 'Defend Dolores'
button immediately; but on thinking it through I realised that with insight
such as hers, she'll know all this herself - and that she doesnt need me to
jump in and defensively toast Lisa for her.

 8. Can I suggest Lisa that if you will read the enclosed reply I made
to Laurel to the list on Saturday and make a positive and uplifting response,
I and I am sure Dolores too will be so very glad to bury the hatchett and give
you a big virtual hug too. I will reply fully to your article once I have
had time to turn my current opinions on it into something positive, uplifting
and worth posting.

**Note to all**: I will wait myself until Dolores has had a chance to
finish her reply and until Lisa has had a chance to read the article
I'll forward her before commenting further: Please dont pre-empt that
by asking me to comment further on this in the meantime, I'll do so
fully in due course.

Sincerely,

Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

www.gla.ac.uk/~grkinfo2/combpsy.html
-----
We are the hope that will never hide
We are the turning of the tide

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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Thu May 23 00:43:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Lisa and Laurel
From: "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:43:23 -0400

>Oh, Laurel. . .
>what a bitter statement.  Your disregard of men  is truly
>formidable.  Perhaps you have experienced difficult relationships. . . I am
>sorry for that

                        >Vicki

>Dolores:
>
>Your anger is palpable.  I hope you work through it.
>
                        >Is'e


Laurel/Dolores---

Given your apparent view of men as a whole and your stated admiration for
the women on this list, I find it interesting that your opinion isn't shared
universally...especially by the women.  I won't bother to give you my
perspective, since it would just be that of a boorish, woman-infatuated male
barely in control of his own central appendage.  Nevertheless, given the
several intertwining threads about rage and anger, please answer a question
for me.

Why are you angry?

I believe that, every once in a while, we are given opportunities to work
through the major psychological issues of our lives.  We can either confront
those issues honestly and take them to heart...that is, we can deal with the
principles involved and experience the pain of rigorous self examination and
change.  Or, we can deflect the issues and look for easier, softer ways of
coping with our problems.  We can blame our difficult past, for example, or
we can nurture and coddle our anger and self righteous indignation instead
of looking into the black hole of our fear.

Growth...particularly personal growth is always an "inside job".  No one can
do it for you.  But all growth, whether psychological or biological,
requires resistance.  You've created the resistance.  I'm curious to see if
you have the courage to use it.

Steven the Rover
hoathsb@uc.edu

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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Thu May 23 00:44:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Netiquette
From: "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:44:01 -0400

Stephen.Murray (@udcf.gla.ac.uk) wrote in response to criticism of Dolores'
and his articles:

        "I give classes in netiquette and acceptable use and had one
         of my students made such ad-hominem attacks and malicious
         criticism, I would have roasted them."

Sometimes articles posted to this list are hilarious in their internal
inconsistencies.  My suggestion, Stephen, is to put on your psyberglasses
and look at what you wrote in reply to Lisa.  To my reading, it was a nearly
continuous ad-hominem attack couched in syrupy self righteousness. I was
told that, at scientific presentations in England, it was considered fair
game to ruthlessly attack the *facts* of the matter but never the person.
Another way of saying this is to "Put principles before personalities."  Of
course, on a psychological mailing list I'm not sure how this really plays
out...plus it's fun to see the rampant emotion and intellectual
defenses...<grin>...

Steven the Rover
hoathsb@uc.edu

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Thu May 23 02:06:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa and Laurel and Steve
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:06:17 +0100

 Oh come on Stephen, what a load of bollocks. And so you dont think I'm
 'ad-homineming' you I'll explain why I think that.
>
>
> > Laurel/Dolores---
> >
> > Given your apparent view of men as a whole and your stated admiration for
> > the women on this list, I find it interesting that your opinion isn't shared
> > universally...especially by the women.

 What do you mean you find it 'interesting'; what you really mean is it not is
 that you dont like her thoughts but you're not going to say why or do her
 comments justice, you'd rather make insinuations and imply she's wrong on the
 strength of other messages being posted which dont agree with her. Stephen, why
 on earth cant you respond to what Dolores and I have actually said rather than
 this kind of petty sniping?

 I made it abundantly clear that I *am* replying to Lisa's article in full,
 and -as you must surely know fine well - to accuse *me* of making ad-hominem
 attacks with what I said to her in the meantime is just schoolboy taunting -

> >I wont bother to give you my
> > perspective, since it would just be that of a boorish, woman-infatuated male
> > barely in control of his own central appendage.

 Sarcasm, ridicule, maliciousness. Does what we have said so threaten you
 that this is the best you can do?


> <snip>




> > I believe that, every once in a while, we are given opportunities to work
> > through the major psychological issues of our lives.  We can either confront
> > those issues honestly and take them to heart...that is, we can deal with the
> > principles involved and experience the pain of rigorous self examination and
> > change.  Or, we can deflect the issues and look for easier, softer ways of
> > coping with our problems.  We can blame our difficult past, for example, or
> > we can nurture and coddle our anger and self righteous indignation instead
> > of looking into the black hole of our fear.
> >
> > Growth...particularly personal growth is always an "inside job".  No one can
> > do it for you.  But all growth, whether psychological or biological,
> > requires resistance.  You've created the resistance.  I'm curious to see if
> > you have the courage to use it.
> >

 Now this last bit is interesting, but I fail to see even after several
 readings what you're referring to or insinuating about Dolores with it; I
 dont see anger in her messages, I see insight, love and a beautiful spirit
 worthy of respect, compassion , acceptance, approval and trust from us.
 I have given her that, and have gained a great deal in doing so.

 Your words above seem to be vaguely implying that Dolores is angry and that
 you by understanding that are qualified to pontificate and advise her and I
 on what we should do - in the same message as you make sarcastic, ridiculing
 criticism and sidestep both our real intentions [Dolores and I].

 I ask you again - what do you hope to gain by posting this? If you dont like
 what you hear, why not just admit that and say so rather than posting this
 kind of playground humour.

 For myself, I do not like what I hear from you at all.

 Steve Murray
 Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

 'Gonna put up the old umbrella, and let it all trickle away' - Dale Carnegie

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Thu May 23 02:10:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Netiquette
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:10:41 +0100

 Steven,
>
 I'm not going to bother with this one - if you actually read Laurel's
article, my reply, and Lisa's article followed by my comments on Lisa's
article then you will be well aware of what an utter load of crap you've just
written.

 And if that's an ad-hominem attack it's only because I'm not going to waste
 my time repeating what I said to Lisa here: she made extensive criticisms,
 insults and missings-of-the-point in her article which was what I was
 discussing. How is that ad-hominem? I also made it clear that I will
 reply to Lisa's article with a full critical reply when I have time, and
 asked people here not to pre-empt that with idiotic comments like yours.

 And why do I think they're idiotic? Because if you read what I said to Lisa
 it's clear that I was not attacking her personaly but rather what she said,
 the way she said it and the substance of it. If you cant tell the difference
 between that and an ad-hominem attack then I worry about you.

 If you want to throw more of this rubbish my way, go ahead - but as I
 said to Lisa, I dont feel angry at it; just again rather sad that after all
 the loving and sincere things Laurel and I said that this is the best
 you can do.


 And tell me one thing- what did you hope to gain by posting this?

 Steve Murray

 Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

 'Gonna put up the old umbrella, and let it all trickle away'- Dale Carnegie

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Thu May 23 02:34:19 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Netiquette
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:34:19 +0100

Dear Stephen,

You of all people should know why I am angry dearest, that is of course if I
am angry.  Am I?

And I know exactly why you wrote what you did. Petty dear very petty.

Dolores.

As for Lisa.. She is so far beneath me crawling out of her own lichen
covered little rock, she is beyond my notice.
If thats her best shot..it was about as irritating as a mosquito to an Elephant.
I refuse to sink to her level and she obviously can't rise to mine.

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Thu May 23 02:47:35 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa and Laurel
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:47:35 +0100

>Laurel/Dolores---
>
>Given your apparent view of men as a whole and your stated admiration for
>the women on this list, I find it interesting that your opinion isn't shared
>universally...especially by the women.  I won't bother to give you my
>perspective, since it would just be that of a boorish, woman-infatuated male
>barely in control of his own central appendage.  Nevertheless, given the
>several intertwining threads about rage and anger, please answer a question
>for me.

And what woman would that be?
Irony..


>Why are you angry?

Oh I think you know that..that is if I am angry. Am I?
>
>
>I believe that, every once in a while, we are given opportunities to work
>through the major psychological issues of our lives.  We can either confront
>those issues honestly and take them to heart...that is, we can deal with the
>principles involved and experience the pain of rigorous self examination and
>change.  Or, we can deflect the issues and look for easier, softer ways of
>coping with our problems.  We can blame our difficult past, for example, or
>we can nurture and coddle our anger and self righteous indignation instead
>of looking into the black hole of our fear.
>
>And what would the major psychological issue oppertunity be for you.. let
me guess.

>Growth...particularly personal growth is always an "inside job".  No one can
>do it for you.  But all growth, whether psychological or biological,
>requires resistance.  You've created the resistance.  I'm curious to see if
>you have the courage to use it.
>
>But I think you'll agree that another might help. Or perhaps you want to
deny that one. And by resistance..do you mean what you encountered in
another or what you encountered in yourself.

A coward apparently dies a thousand deaths. I am neither a coward nor
somebody who will hit their head against a brick wall for too long.
>
>
>Steven the Rover
>hoathsb@uc.edu
>
>Interesting that you chose to Rove again.

As for Lisa.. She is so far beneath me, crawling out of her own lichen
covered little rock, she is beyond my notice.
If thats her best shot..it was about as irritating as a mosquito to an Elephant.
I refuse to sink to her level and she obviously can't rise to mine.
I suggest that further *intellectual* conversation with her be conducted
over a cloth book rather than a mailing list. That appears to be about the
level of interpretation she can attain at the moment..if we are really lucky
she might progress to building blocks and alphabetti spaghetti soon.

Go for it Lisa..I'll sink you like the Titanic.





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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Thu May 23 02:56:43 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa..oh joy..
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:56:43 -0400

My Sweet Goddess Dolores:
>

>>
>>Obviously you didnt bother reading what I had written properly, one wonders
>why you continued to read at all.

What?  Did I miss something...wait..let me go back....

OH my God.

I mean...

OH my GodDESS!

 You're right!  I did not read it properly!  How ever could I have missed it!
 I humble myself before you....wait....wait...I am printing it now....it
belongs..yes..there ... on the alter. <with a sweep of her hands clears away
the propitiations to the great phallic gods>[sorry guys]..THERE!..pinned to
my bulletin board...festooned with honeysuckle and laurel...I will pay homage
daily to your great and wordly words..  I have never seen their equal!  When
the roses bloom I shall scatter their petals upon this alter to the great and
glorious You!


>>Have you ever stopped to count the number of male nicks on irc or sex
>chatlines.

ummm...no..actually I haven't..sorry...sorry...I Was in the poetry room
discussing Byron.



>>I wish you would read my text carefully before going off half cocked (no
>pun intended) and replying.

You're right...oh my...you are So Very Right...I see that now...I am humbled
before you...please...I beg of you...your pardon...I am a foolish, foolish
woman...I swear to you I will read every word with absolute care and
reverence from this moment forth.
>


>I believe that the person who is decieved is you. I appear to have a better
>understanding of men than you do (biologically and otherwise)

Yes, yes, of course you do.  Again and again I prostrate myself before the
magnificence and splendor of your wisdom.  You are again so very right.  I
see that now....my five years spent working for U.S.Navy Fighter Jet Test
Pilots and the last eighteen years married to a U.S. Marine Helicopter Test
Pilot and living amongst the U.S. Marines could not have any conceivable way
offered me even the tiniest glimpse into the nature of the beast that your
year or so on the irc has afforded you.  I am such a stupid and foolish woman
to have thought for even a moment I might have had something worthwhile to
offer.  No, I see now that I am nothing...I am pond scum...I bow before you.
>

>>1. You will recall I hope Stephens reply.

ooops....nope...sorry..missed that....is he a mighty god equal to your
goddess...please please...send me his words that my life will be complete...I
tremble with the joy of knowing another exists.

>>2. Again, you continue to put your own gloss on the text actually written.

Of course, of course, I have been blind..but I have been led to the light by
the power and majesty of your erudite tome.



>I have not experienced the "ravages" of menopause yet.

Then again and again I beg you to understand how I am ravaged
....gracelessly...daily.

>I intend to grow old gracefully.

I see that yes...as  the grace and dignity of your words so clearly
illustrates....oh how I have been so blinded by my own stupidity.  I bow
before you...I kiss your hand.... I am NOTHING!  I am NOT WORTHY!


>. "The perfect wife is a Queen in the living
>chamber, a slave in the kitchen, and a whore in the bedroom"

<oh by the way...thanks for that ... I always wondered where that came
from...see....again and again my life is enriched by you>

>I find it baffling as to why you believe that this is a mystery since all
>the major religions have been and are dominated by men.

of course, of course....I wouldn't begin to disagree....but you won't mind if
I hide this when my Wicce friends come over..they get a little testy about
these kinds of statements...I'm sure I don't know why.



>>
>>And it had exactly the result I intended...

I live to serve....



>Do allow me the pleasure of continuing tommorow and believe me it will be a
>pleasure..

that I give you pleasure, pleases me, I will live to please you.  My life
will be a long and happy momument to the treasure that is You!  Thank you!
 Thank you!  I have wandering aimlessly looking for a great and worthy
spiritual guide and At Last...I have found HER!  What Joy!  What Bliss!  Even
the gods of cosmic jest could must surely be pleased!

you don't mind too much if I keep this one other tiny alter to the god of
partial credit, do you?


>Oh and dont bother replying to this yet.

oh dear goddess, forgive me.  Let me hand you the lash that you may inflict a
thousand wounds on my prostrate form..I have disobeyed you....I deserve every
sting, not one less.

>.I have deliberatly saved the best
>till last.

I am, I assure you, Breathless with anticipation.

Is'e

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Thu May 23 03:21:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Nothing ever created by rage?
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:21:44 -0400

At 07:50 AM 5/22/96 GMT, you wrote:

>now, now Wilbur, I don't know about you but I've lived a lot making a choice
>not to look at something because it wasn't time yet, later when I felt ready
>to open to the lesson I did it. I use to say I had those issues in little
>ribbon tied boxes in my inner closet and would take one out at a time to work
>on.

hmm.. what I've found is that when I open one of the presents then there is
a dragon inside, carrying another present, bigger, with a brighter bow, and
with another dragon trapped inside, that turns out to be carrying another
present...  Quite a ride back to the womb.

But I suppose that slaying dragons is a male thing...

>My take on any issue is that each of us has taken on certain universal and I
>suppose archetypal issue. Right now I know I am engaged in amping someone's
>jeolousy issue. Jeolousy isn't one of my issues -envy has been-. Anyway I
>think the rage I have felt as the first time I encountered the shadow of the
>patriarchy which was a blind spot for me is tapping into the collective rage,
>so I have a personaluniversal framing of all issues. In my work with coaching
>clients who are opening I find not all people have all issues. I livedcoached
>a woman for 2 years who had the most whelming rage at men which she played
>out with a relationship with a very well known Saudi-I mean she was
>confronting a version of the wester patriarch thru that culture-it was
>breathtaking.

I suppose it would be, but I'm not into archetypes.  They're too easy.
I'm into living my own life.

><<>But then nice girls in my
>>generation were never allowed to express rage...my father would stop
>anything
>>out of my mouth that wasn't nice...the proverbial if you can't say anything
>>nice don't say anything at all.
>
>That went for this boy also>>

>wow, I hadn't experienced this in a man. My then husband of 21 years was
>filled with unacknowledged rage which came out in his
>competitiveness...interesting his code of ethics was around humility, but now
>that you mention it maybe it was *being nice* in disguise.

More like rage wasn't a good emotion, so if we exhibited it, we were
punished.  Hence a lot of sublimated rage.  Too bad it isn't out in the
open, where we can acknowledge and deal with it.

>>My most release of any rage moment was
>>emptying the dishwasher one night and breaking every dish on the floor. Egad
>>that felt good.
>
>I've noticed that my girlfriend explodes also.
>Perhaps I need to rile her up more often to get it out?  But that sounds
>dangerous.  Perhaps long walks..>

>I have been living in my dishtosssing glow for many years. I think explosion
>is fine as well as long walks. My healer talks about emotions and says they
>are like weather fronts, they come, stay awhile and move on. It feels
>cyclical to me in a way and I think the trick at least the one that is
>working for me is to breath into the cycles and give myself permission to
>toss a dish if the spirit <g> moves me.

Unfortunatly for myself, I can't release my rage safely by throwing a fit.
Dishes won't do it, and I suspect, this is quite a problem for a number of
males.  After all, male rage is like female rage on steriods.  I believe
that a great deal of the role models of hiding emotion that are taught to
men are based on the respect of the capacity of men to rage.

>To me the framing continues to be to hold personaluniversal and the awareness
>of the participation in the evolving consciousness, but that is my belief
>system.

I know I'm in there also.. but I also like to color outside the lines.

>BTW dancing is a great explosion. I use Professor Trance and his Trance
>Dancer CD.

Men used to dance for days .. there seems to be some return to that in the
men's movenemnt..

wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Thu May 23 03:29:11 1996
To: Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa..oh joy.. [plus a postcard]
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:29:11 GMT


Lisa wrote:


> Dolores:
> 
> >>When the gods want to punish you, they send you men.
> 
> Your anger is palpable.  I hope you work through it.
> 
> Is'e

Can we ever?  I keep thinking of the archetypal at work here . . .
how ever literally we have our difficulties with the opposite sex --
and we sure do -- it is a mirror of our grappling with our own energy
as well.  

All for now.  Though I'd love to say more . . .  and will no doubt
when the time is right.


~~~

And by the way, *welcome* to all who are new here.  I notice there are
a few new subscriptions to the list.  Some of you may not know that
this list is a jewel with many facets.  One is that it is a starting
point for other activities.  One such is the dream event, a
PsyberGroup that is in the midst of its work, and may be for some
weeks yet.  It is difficult, to be fully present in two intense lists,
it is for me, and I notice that there is a leveling off in the amount
of discussion here, interesting as it is on the question of gender . .
. 

There will be a public document at the conclusion of the PsyberGroup,
which seems a long time away . . . I am interested to see how the
Psybernet venture develops as we have a lively Psyber-L and a dream
event at the same time.  Be prepared for some important evaluation of
that when the time comes. 


Warm wishes,


Walter.
Surfacing from the dream world . . .





From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Thu May 23 03:29:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa..oh joy.. [plus a postcard]
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 15:29:11 GMT

Lisa wrote:


> Dolores:
>
> >>When the gods want to punish you, they send you men.
>
> Your anger is palpable.  I hope you work through it.
>
> Is'e

Can we ever?  I keep thinking of the archetypal at work here . . .
how ever literally we have our difficulties with the opposite sex --
and we sure do -- it is a mirror of our grappling with our own energy
as well.

All for now.  Though I'd love to say more . . .  and will no doubt
when the time is right.


~~~

And by the way, *welcome* to all who are new here.  I notice there are
a few new subscriptions to the list.  Some of you may not know that
this list is a jewel with many facets.  One is that it is a starting
point for other activities.  One such is the dream event, a
PsyberGroup that is in the midst of its work, and may be for some
weeks yet.  It is difficult, to be fully present in two intense lists,
it is for me, and I notice that there is a leveling off in the amount
of discussion here, interesting as it is on the question of gender . .
.

There will be a public document at the conclusion of the PsyberGroup,
which seems a long time away . . . I am interested to see how the
Psybernet venture develops as we have a lively Psyber-L and a dream
event at the same time.  Be prepared for some important evaluation of
that when the time comes.


Warm wishes,


Walter.
Surfacing from the dream world . . .

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From rojasha@USA.PIPELINE.COM Thu May 23 04:06:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I don't get it.
From: Robbi <rojasha@USA.PIPELINE.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:06:00 -0400

 Ok I'm new on this posting. Heard about it on pendulum digest. We all
mutually support each other, but all I see here is everybody flaming each
other's asses. Does anyone care to tell me what is this list REALLY about?


         ~ Robbi ~     "o o"

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Thu May 23 04:34:01 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Netiquette
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:34:01 -0400

At 08:44 AM 5/22/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Stephen.Murray (@udcf.gla.ac.uk) wrote in response to criticism of Dolores'
>and his articles:
>
>        "I give classes in netiquette and acceptable use and had one
>         of my students made such ad-hominem attacks and malicious
>         criticism, I would have roasted them."
>
>Sometimes articles posted to this list are hilarious in their internal
>inconsistencies.  My suggestion, Stephen, is to put on your psyberglasses
>and look at what you wrote in reply to Lisa.  To my reading, it was a nearly
>continuous ad-hominem attack couched in syrupy self righteousness.

Something I also noticed.

Classes in "Netiquette"?  Appropriate use?

I wanted to say that while Stephen's statement of "Universal Male Issues"
was thoughtful, thought provoking, and well written, it certainly isn't a
statement of my male issues, and is therefore not universal.  I find the
whole idea quite offensive, as if Steven has appointed himself our leader, a
speaker for all of us, particularly when he seems to miss all of the issues
that would consider gender related.  Or as if men deserve to be subjected to
generalizations when we are unique individuals.  Much as Laurel's message
ignored men's individuality, Stephen's did also.
Since Stepehen is a new subscriber, I had hoped to be welcoming him.  I have
to assume that he missed the message about how generalizations are how
individual rights are abused, and my reference to my mother's experience in
a concentration camp.

I guess Stephen Murray doesn't have a clue as to the real strength of
individual freedom.  I assume, by extension, he doesn't understand what it
is to be man also.  Steven Murray, trust me, you don't speak for me, nor do
you speak for me as a man.  As a man, I speak for myself.

Perhaps Stephen's "Men's Issues" manifesto would be better published in
Glamour magazine, next to the article on how to keep a man begging in the
bedroom.  Notice that I'm not bothering to write pages and pages of polite
response to his messages, that would be an obvious waste of time.

As to Laurel's statements, I'm quite aware of Laurel's tendency to bracket
the truth with a bit of her own outrageousness.  I find it refreshing, and I
do like Laurel.  But I gave up on engaging in that particular brand of
male/female competition a long time ago, shortly after my divorce.  I can
only hope that Laurel/Delores comes to gripes with the reality that men are
people first, and men second.  I also am aware of her own current situation
in the relationship department.  Having been through a divorce of my own, I
know how hard that can be to go through the emotions and sort through the
issues involved, particularly when there is a child involved.

In the spirit of Laurel's outrageousness, and in response, "Hey, we all know
that women are just guys with little penises anyway."

I'm hopeful that I'm not the only one that see's how silly it all is?

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Thu May 23 04:45:14 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Netiquette
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 17:45:14 +0100

I'm hopeful that I'm not the only one that see's how silly it all is?

Ah Wilbur your not..

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Thu May 23 05:08:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa and Laurel and Steve
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:08:00 -0400

At 03:06 PM 5/22/96 +0100, you wrote:
> Oh come on Stephen, what a load of bollocks. And so you dont think I'm
> 'ad-homineming' you I'll explain why I think that.
>>
>>
>> > Laurel/Dolores---
>> >
>> > Given your apparent view of men as a whole and your stated admiration for
>> > the women on this list, I find it interesting that your opinion isn't
shared
>> > universally...especially by the women.
>
>
> I made it abundantly clear that I *am* replying to Lisa's article in full,
> and -as you must surely know fine well - to accuse *me* of making ad-hominem
> attacks with what I said to her in the meantime is just schoolboy taunting -

No, it's not.  We're not schoolboy's.  You were making an ad-hominem attack.

>> >I wont bother to give you my
>> > perspective, since it would just be that of a boorish, woman-infatuated
male
>> > barely in control of his own central appendage.
>
> Sarcasm, ridicule, maliciousness. Does what we have said so threaten you
> that this is the best you can do?

Doesn't threaten me, you don't have that much power in your intellect.
Sarcasm is the sole of wit, in case you never heard.  In case you also
didn't notice, Laurel's message is quite nicely summed up in Steven's
statement.  He appropriately points out that Laurel has already objectified
men, and rightly refusing to get involved in a discussion with someone that
treats him as less than an individual with the right to individual respect.
Of course, it's quite obvious from your messages that you love that sort of
attitude, so I suggest that you and Laurel GET A ROOM and stop bothering us
with your love letters.

>> > I believe that, every once in a while, we are given opportunities to work
>> > through the major psychological issues of our lives.  We can either
confront
>> > those issues honestly and take them to heart...that is, we can deal
with the
>> > principles involved and experience the pain of rigorous self
examination and
>> > change.  Or, we can deflect the issues and look for easier, softer ways of
>> > coping with our problems.  We can blame our difficult past, for example, or
>> > we can nurture and coddle our anger and self righteous indignation instead
>> > of looking into the black hole of our fear.
>> >
>> > Growth...particularly personal growth is always an "inside job".  No
one can
>> > do it for you.  But all growth, whether psychological or biological,
>> > requires resistance.  You've created the resistance.  I'm curious to see if
>> > you have the courage to use it.
>> >
>
> Now this last bit is interesting, but I fail to see even after several
> readings what you're referring to or insinuating about Dolores with it; I
> dont see anger in her messages, I see insight, love and a beautiful spirit
> worthy of respect, compassion , acceptance, approval and trust from us.
> I have given her that, and have gained a great deal in doing so.

Boy do you have some growing up to do.  Perhaps you need to commune with
your penis a little more, I suggest the right hand this time.

> Your words above seem to be vaguely implying that Dolores is angry and that
> you by understanding that are qualified to pontificate and advise her and I
> on what we should do - in the same message as you make sarcastic, ridiculing
> criticism and sidestep both our real intentions [Dolores and I].

Perhaps we know Delores a little more than you do?  Amazing that you and she
are soul mates.. how long have you known her?  You've been in Psyberia for
what, one week?

> I ask you again - what do you hope to gain by posting this? If you dont like
> what you hear, why not just admit that and say so rather than posting this
> kind of playground humour.

Oh, we're sorry, our emotions aren't as worthy are your's are, oh mighty
one.  Now we have to respond to what you want us to respond to, not what we
want to respond to?  Who died and made you God?

> For myself, I do not like what I hear from you at all.

Maybe the feeling is mutual.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Thu May 23 05:08:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Netiquette
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:08:05 -0400

At 03:10 PM 5/22/96 +0100, you wrote:
> Steven,
>>
> I'm not going to bother with this one - if you actually read Laurel's
>article, my reply, and Lisa's article followed by my comments on Lisa's
>article then you will be well aware of what an utter load of crap you've just
>written.

Yeah, but it must have been good crap to get your goat this easily.

Truth hurts, doesn't it.

> And if that's an ad-hominem attack it's only because I'm not going to waste
> my time repeating what I said to Lisa here: she made extensive criticisms,
> insults and missings-of-the-point in her article which was what I was
> discussing. How is that ad-hominem? I also made it clear that I will
> reply to Lisa's article with a full critical reply when I have time, and
> asked people here not to pre-empt that with idiotic comments like yours.

You claim that she missed the point, seems to me that you missed her point.

> And why do I think they're idiotic? Because if you read what I said to Lisa
> it's clear that I was not attacking her personaly but rather what she said,
> the way she said it and the substance of it. If you cant tell the difference
> between that and an ad-hominem attack then I worry about you.

Funny, she doesn't feel like you engaged her in an intellectual discussion.

> If you want to throw more of this rubbish my way, go ahead - but as I
> said to Lisa, I dont feel angry at it; just again rather sad that after all
> the loving and sincere things Laurel and I said that this is the best
> you can do.

Oh, and we'll be sure to pity you as well.

> And tell me one thing- what did you hope to gain by posting this?

What did you hope to gain with this non-answering, answer to his post?

Funny how you post a commune with your penis about the nature of manhood but
can't even be honest enough to call an message an answer when you answer a
post.  Your deception is not going unnoticed.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Thu May 23 05:44:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Netiquette
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 13:44:22 -0400

At 05:45 PM 5/22/96 +0100, you wrote:
>I'm hopeful that I'm not the only one that see's how silly it all is?
>
>Ah Wilbur your not..

Glad to hear it.

Wanna wrassle?  It's too hot for snowballs anymore.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Thu May 23 05:58:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Netiquette
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 18:58:36 +0100

Wilbur,


I wont reply to your comments fully just now either but you make several
mistakes I will point out :

- I've been reading Psybernet for 18 months; who told you I'm 'just here'?

- You're also on the NLP mailing list, arent you; so you'll know all about
Ross Jeffries and the things I raised. If you dont want to criticise
what I said in my article, fine - but accusing me of 'self-righteousness' and
of trying to tell you how to be a man is frankly ludicrous.

Self-appointed leader? I gutted myself laughing at that. Wilbur, I rarely
have time to read all the stuff here let alone post as I made it clear
in the few articles I have posted.  I fail to see how listening quietly
for 18 months and then responding to Laurel's article makes me 'self-righteous'
or a leader.

Without these perplexing flames and attacks I should likely not have posted
here again for quite a while; I can see me staying for the forseeable future
though now to clean up the mess, and if your intention was to distract or
divert attention away from what we said then it couldnt have been more
counterproductive.


My reply - as I made it clear -was directed mainly to Laurel,
and only for the group's information. Then when I read Lisa's ghastly little
piece I felt compelled to reply and send her a copy of my article since I
thought it was clear that she hadnt read it; I thought that given the tone
of her article that what I said was mild to say the least.

And if I give Netiquette classes and want to mention that, what's it to you?

I echo what I said to Stephen Hoath: did what I say so threaten you that this
is the best you can do? And what do you hope to gain by posting this?


Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

'Gonna put up the old umbrella, and let it all trickle away' - Dale Carnegie

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Thu May 23 06:23:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Netiquette
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:23:21 -0400

At 06:58 PM 5/22/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Wilbur,
>I wont reply to your comments fully just now either but you make several
>mistakes I will point out :
>- I've been reading Psybernet for 18 months; who told you I'm 'just here'?

Good for you, why didn't you get the point of Laurel's message then?  And
why didn't you see where Lisa was coming from?

>- You're also on the NLP mailing list, arent you; so you'll know all about
>Ross Jeffries and the things I raised. If you dont want to criticise
>what I said in my article, fine - but accusing me of 'self-righteousness' and
>of trying to tell you how to be a man is frankly ludicrous.

Funny, I thought that you posted a predefined message on "Universal Men's
issues", but I guess that you never came across the issue that men as
individual's deserve to be treated as individuals.

>Self-appointed leader? I gutted myself laughing at that. Wilbur, I rarely
>have time to read all the stuff here let alone post as I made it clear
>in the few articles I have posted.  I fail to see how listening quietly
>for 18 months and then responding to Laurel's article makes me 'self-righteous'
>or a leader.

You post on "Men's issues" and then about how you teach a class on
Netiquette, and you can't see how you are attempting to make a claim of
authority?  Perhaps you are missing a great deal of context in the
discussion that a "man" is an individual.

>Without these perplexing flames and attacks I should likely not have posted
>here again for quite a while; I can see me staying for the forseeable future
>though now to clean up the mess, and if your intention was to distract or
>divert attention away from what we said then it couldnt have been more
>counterproductive.

Glad to make you part of the party.. Sorry if you feel that emotional
involvement is couterproductive, Laurel is one of the people that has
challendged the notion of non-emotional involvement in list, or did you miss
that?

>My reply - as I made it clear -was directed mainly to Laurel,
>and only for the group's information. Then when I read Lisa's ghastly little
>piece I felt compelled to reply and send her a copy of my article since I
>thought it was clear that she hadnt read it; I thought that given the tone
>of her article that what I said was mild to say the least.

I ignored your post until you started in with Lisa.  It appears that you
have a bit of sycronicity with Laurel, purse that.  Lisa and Laurel are in
different places, and they are both grown ups, (I'm sure that Laurel is..),
so I doubt that she needs your protection from Lisa.  I believe that Lisa's
message was honest, as was Laurel's, you you chose to protect Laurel from
Lisa, which did nothing but escalate the situation.

>And if I give Netiquette classes and want to mention that, what's it to you?

Not a thing, since that you teach is not a guarentee that you are aware of
Netiquette, that much you've proven.  And that was my point.

>I echo what I said to Stephen Hoath: did what I say so threaten you that this
>is the best you can do? And what do you hope to gain by posting this?

I thought that I already answered this.  In case you need another reply, I
don't have to have any particular agenda, I can respond whereever and
whenever I want.  Individual freedom, remember?

Wilbur

PS.  Based on your tag line, I have to assume that you like flame wars.. I'm
not wasting any more time on this than absolutely necessary.
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From jhendrix@CYBERRAMP.NET Thu May 23 07:38:59 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I don't get it.
From: Jason Hendrix <jhendrix@CYBERRAMP.NET>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 14:38:59 -0500

Robbi wrote:
>
>  Ok I'm new on this posting. Heard about it on pendulum digest. We all
> mutually support each other, but all I see here is everybody flaming each
> other's asses. Does anyone care to tell me what is this list REALLY about?
> ... as interesting (and occasionally entertaining) as it has been
finding my mailbox stuffed with the grunts and groans of intellectual
sodomy since subscribing....

Jason

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Thu May 23 08:00:40 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa, Stephen, Steven, Wilbur, Jason, Robbi
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 21:00:40 +0100

Dear all,

This has got to stop and now. I apologise for any really bitchy remarks I
made Lisa and I hope your big enough to do the same. That is the end of it
as far as I am concerned from this email address.

Steven, I  love you.. and I acknowledge our relationship because you told me
not to so there and you know how bloody minded I am and because you knew I
would.
And yes it was me being petty. So everybody, this is the man unlucky enough
to get saddled with me in Cyberspace. Which not only goes to prove that I do
love men.. but that I have dubious taste in them. (should I point out thats
a joke)

Stephen, this has gotten out of control. I would have preferred you to have
defended yourself rather than me, but I appreciate what you did.

Wilbur your wonderfull...some of the time anyway.. you just picked the wrong
Stephen as the object of my affections. Thank you for the email reply and I
will email the person in question personally.

Walter I sincerely apologise for my part in this.

To everybody on the cyberlist I apologise for the way the post evolved. I
dont want anybody to hate each other.. or to waste time in petty flame wars.

I particularly apologise to Jason and Robbi for giving them such a false
impression of the list.

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From party4@po.fast.net Thu May 23 11:19:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa and Laurel and Steve
From: linda garber <party4@po.fast.net>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:19:00 EDT

Can someone please tell me how to get off of this list.  I've been trying
without success.  Thank you.

Linda



At 03:06 PM 5/22/96 +0100, you wrote:
> Oh come on Stephen, what a load of bollocks. And so you dont think I'm
> 'ad-homineming' you I'll explain why I think that.
>>
>>
>> > Laurel/Dolores---
>> >
>> > Given your apparent view of men as a whole and your stated admiration for
>> > the women on this list, I find it interesting that your opinion isn't
shared
>> > universally...especially by the women.
>
> What do you mean you find it 'interesting'; what you really mean is it not is
> that you dont like her thoughts but you're not going to say why or do her
> comments justice, you'd rather make insinuations and imply she's wrong on the
> strength of other messages being posted which dont agree with her.
Stephen, why
> on earth cant you respond to what Dolores and I have actually said rather than
> this kind of petty sniping?
>
> I made it abundantly clear that I *am* replying to Lisa's article in full,
> and -as you must surely know fine well - to accuse *me* of making ad-hominem
> attacks with what I said to her in the meantime is just schoolboy taunting -
>
>> >I wont bother to give you my
>> > perspective, since it would just be that of a boorish, woman-infatuated
male
>> > barely in control of his own central appendage.
>
> Sarcasm, ridicule, maliciousness. Does what we have said so threaten you
> that this is the best you can do?
>
>
>> <snip>
>
>
>
>
>> > I believe that, every once in a while, we are given opportunities to work
>> > through the major psychological issues of our lives.  We can either
confront
>> > those issues honestly and take them to heart...that is, we can deal
with the
>> > principles involved and experience the pain of rigorous self
examination and
>> > change.  Or, we can deflect the issues and look for easier, softer ways of
>> > coping with our problems.  We can blame our difficult past, for example, or
>> > we can nurture and coddle our anger and self righteous indignation instead
>> > of looking into the black hole of our fear.
>> >
>> > Growth...particularly personal growth is always an "inside job".  No
one can
>> > do it for you.  But all growth, whether psychological or biological,
>> > requires resistance.  You've created the resistance.  I'm curious to see if
>> > you have the courage to use it.
>> >
>
> Now this last bit is interesting, but I fail to see even after several
> readings what you're referring to or insinuating about Dolores with it; I
> dont see anger in her messages, I see insight, love and a beautiful spirit
> worthy of respect, compassion , acceptance, approval and trust from us.
> I have given her that, and have gained a great deal in doing so.
>
> Your words above seem to be vaguely implying that Dolores is angry and that
> you by understanding that are qualified to pontificate and advise her and I
> on what we should do - in the same message as you make sarcastic, ridiculing
> criticism and sidestep both our real intentions [Dolores and I].
>
> I ask you again - what do you hope to gain by posting this? If you dont like
> what you hear, why not just admit that and say so rather than posting this
> kind of playground humour.
>
> For myself, I do not like what I hear from you at all.
>
> Steve Murray
> Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk
>
> 'Gonna put up the old umbrella, and let it all trickle away' - Dale Carnegie
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>

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From tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ Thu May 23 16:06:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Fare Ye Well all!!
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@STONEBOW.OTAGO.AC.NZ>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 16:06:05 +1200

Hey just thought I would say good bye for a time.
I just don't have the time for such a large group any more.I'm finding all
the mail more annoying than anything,  I enjoyed the more personal,  I felt
I was not getting what I wanted out of the list.There was just to much to
keep up with.
  I have enjoyed my time with you guys.I will probably come back some time
but for now I'm signing off.If any of you do wish to still keep in contact
with me you have my address.

All the best-Tama Jamey Neill 8)


                             _____________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*
                             19 Haywood st, Mornington
                                         Dunedin,
                                     New Zealand
                                  *P:(03)4554627*
                                 *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      ____________________________

                         Custom-Sized Screen Realities:
                                        TURN ON

                                        TUNE IN

BOOT UP

                        "To be is to do" -Socrates


                        "To do is to be" -Sartre


                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra

                                        Just say "Know"

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From 101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM Thu May 23 19:43:50 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Childbirth, Men and ..
From: "Dr. Schmidt" <101632.3701@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 03:43:50 EDT

To Lisa (and all): I read your article with great interest and appreciate the
many thoughts expressed.

I take just up one item which occupies my mind, too, for some time

>It is truly sad that our society is attempting to legislate our lives to the
extent that it is virtually impossible for men and women to converse,
especially in the work force, without fear of reprimand and reprisal, for any
remark, however innocuous.  No longer can "I am terribly sorry, I had not
meant to offend" be followed with "apology accepted, perhaps I
misunderstood".  Instead we rush to courtrooms seeking retribution for wrongs
and harms.  Now our conversations become stilted and empty...and we long for
deeper, more meaningful intercourse.  And it is a sad commentary on our lives
that we must seek disembodied conversation to find the connections we crave.<

The statistical evidence of this development is the ever increasing number of
lawyers in the US and in Western Europe. This process is fueled by the flood
of new laws and regulations being issued by the respective governments all the
time. The courts are busy now with petty quarrels siphoning off judicial
capacity from the big problem of white collar crime. It seems that the "horror
vacui" in the legal system will finally lead to a situation where your very
existence violates another person's rights. It is interesting to note that the
number of lawyers in Japan is very small (about 2000). Obviously, the Japanese
idea of group harmony makes it mandatory that all difficulties are solved by
communication and discussion between the parties involved. A Japanese friend
once told me that he was called as a mediator in some squabbles with
increasing frequency.
This e-.mail list could be a more free space if we don't take it too
seriously. Some of the responses I read, look to me like preparations for a
case in court.
Those of you who get mad about something they read I refer to a quotatiopn by
Michel de Montaigne (because there are francophiles on the list)

Si ce livre me fasche, j'en prens un autre

Regards, Fritz

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri May 24 00:38:17 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I don't get it.
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:38:17 GMT

Robbi   and all,

>  Ok I'm new on this posting. Heard about it on pendulum digest. We all
> mutually support each other, but all I see here is everybody flaming each
> other's asses. Does anyone care to tell me what is this list REALLY about?

Hi,

I will post up the list description, that might help.  Another way to
get a feel for this list is to get one of the archives -- see the
footer for details. And perhaps best of all, introduce yourself and
the items that are of interest to you that relate to the work here.
One of the main purposes of this list is to learn from our experience
here about the psyche in this medium.  This includes learning bout the
medium, as well as ourselves and others at a deep level.

There is much to learn!  I am finding it painful to watch the posts
come in with so much bitterness, it must be painful too for those who
are more directly involved.  Yet this happens.  I have watched it on
other lists but never quite like this here.  Something is happening
here, and like other phenomena, our job, our list task, is to attend
to it, to learn from it.  We also do not need to reinvent the wheel,
there may be much that people know about the process of flames, and
the cycle of list dynamics that could be shared.  There are some on
this list who wish to learn more about list-ownership, facilitation,
leadership, learning in the midst of strong feelings is hard, and yet
can also be effective.

Suggestions that I have heard on this list, but mostly on others, on
how to cope with flames in our midst,:  ignore, do not add your fuel
to the fire, suggest that it be done in private mail.

My own suggestion here right now is focus on the list task.

>From the list description:
:: The art of leadership in communication networks.  Creating
:: communication environments.  Gender issues.  Imagination,
:: metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity,
:: psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  Special focus on how
:: these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace.

:: Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience
:: of the medium.  We voice that learning.

Voicing our own experience, our own learning.


All the best ,


Walter

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From walterl@chch.planet.org.nz Fri May 24 00:38:17 1996
To: Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I don't get it.
From: walterl@chch.planet.org.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:38:17 GMT


Robbi   and all,

>  Ok I'm new on this posting. Heard about it on pendulum digest. We all
> mutually support each other, but all I see here is everybody flaming each
> other's asses. Does anyone care to tell me what is this list REALLY about?

Hi, 

I will post up the list description, that might help.  Another way to
get a feel for this list is to get one of the archives -- see the
footer for details. And perhaps best of all, introduce yourself and
the items that are of interest to you that relate to the work here.
One of the main purposes of this list is to learn from our experience
here about the psyche in this medium.  This includes learning bout the
medium, as well as ourselves and others at a deep level.  

There is much to learn!  I am finding it painful to watch the posts
come in with so much bitterness, it must be painful too for those who
are more directly involved.  Yet this happens.  I have watched it on
other lists but never quite like this here.  Something is happening
here, and like other phenomena, our job, our list task, is to attend
to it, to learn from it.  We also do not need to reinvent the wheel,
there may be much that people know about the process of flames, and
the cycle of list dynamics that could be shared.  There are some on
this list who wish to learn more about list-ownership, facilitation,
leadership, learning in the midst of strong feelings is hard, and yet
can also be effective.  

Suggestions that I have heard on this list, but mostly on others, on
how to cope with flames in our midst,:  ignore, do not add your fuel
to the fire, suggest that it be done in private mail.  

My own suggestion here right now is focus on the list task.  

>From the list description:
:: The art of leadership in communication networks.  Creating 
:: communication environments.  Gender issues.  Imagination, 
:: metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, 
:: psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  Special focus on how 
:: these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace. 

:: Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience 
:: of the medium.  We voice that learning. 

Voicing our own experience, our own learning.


All the best ,


Walter





From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Fri May 24 00:38:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: =-=  Psybernet Mailing List  -=-=
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 12:38:25 GMT

-=-=-=-=  Psybernet Mailing List  -=-=-=-=

Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the effects
of email groups and lists on group life and the psyche.  The list is a
starting point for professional depth psychological work on the net.

Topics include:

The art of leadership in communication networks.  Creating
communication environments.  Gender issues.  Imagination, metaphors,
archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the
unconscious.  Special focus on how these psychological phenomena
relate to cyberspace.

Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience of
the medium.  We voice that learning.  Forming relationships of a
collegial nature around our psychological net interests is an
important part of the work.

The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which includes
psychological professional services on the net such as one-to-one
Personal Exploration and professionally facilitated email groups. The
list is also a place for professional collaboration in the development
of ethical depth work of this nature. Announcements about Psybernet
services will be made in this list.

The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman, no censorship or editing
has taken place.  Discussion of how the list is facilitated is
integral to its purpose.  Psyber-L is archived and these are available
to members with an index psyber-l command to the listserv.

To subscribe to PSYBER-L, send the a command to:
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the BODY of e-mail:
SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname

For example:  SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith

Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive confirmation
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To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to:
 LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM  In the body of the email
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Last updated   31 March, 1996
Owner:  Walter Logeman  <walterl@chch.planet.org.nz>

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Fri May 24 04:00:25 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa and Laurel
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:00:25 +0100

>Why are you angry?
>
Every night I sleep with a stranger. It is as if the last 11 years never
existed. As if I never existed, as if I have been living in a walking dream.
I am not capable of feeling, he calls me mad, but he is the one that stands
in the doorways, forcing me into corners. He is the one grabbing my wrists
until the bones grate in anguish.
Recently I have been looking for places to hide, places to crawl into or
behind. Tight crawl spaces behind the sofa, under the desk under the table.
He says I am mad as I lay screaming on the kitchen floor surrounded by the
debris and the now silent shards of glass from the broken milk bottles. He
says I am mad, but he's the one that's made me that way. That's not how I
made myself because I found a place to escape to. One where he couldn't
follow me and where I can be alone.
I can count on all the fingers of one hand who will miss me, my mother, my
father and my sister. Maybe my daughter when she is older, I don't know even
that I have any feelings for her. I am her caretaker, I shovel food in the
one end and remove it from the other. I sit and play with her, endlessly
repetitive games. I let her crawl all over me, digging her finger in my
eyes, jabbing my mouth with her banana fingers, let her yank and pull my hair.
I wonder if I am alive..only I am in this room, and I can feel this pen, I
can hear the dog snort through its dog dreams.
Maybe I am not here. I don't want to be here, he comes in and calls me
darling, as though the last half hour had never existed, as though the
comments and the name calling and the hatred never existed. And when I look
in his eyes, I know he wants me, there on the kitchen floor, with the glass
shining like diamonds in my hair, and the blood from the scratches I have
etched in my arms, running onto the cold white tiles. And he does because he
can. And I watch my daughter from the doorway, and I remember the times I
watched my father slam my mothers head against the walls.
And I thank god she is too young, and she giggles and laughs as the tears
fill my eyes. My mouth is closed to arguements I cannot win, because they
taught him to articulate, but nobody taught him to express the way he feels.
So he expresses it with the same frustration I feel when I want to speak and
the words wont come. Both of us are fools of other peoples making. The best
I can say is fuck off and die and mean it. and not mean it.and he shoots
down my silence with verbose insults backed with the arrogance of an Oxford
first.
I fight the temptation to go back inside my head, to let my thoughts be
wrapped by the waiting other parts of me. They comfort me, close in around
me, sing to me in hushed and pleasant voices, wrap me in their velvet
caresses. There is a peace there.
I don't want to die. At times there is such a joy in being alive, in
experiencing that existence. A bolt of nourishing energy which charges a
faded battery, keeps me moving onwards, until it starts to fade. I live for
the extremes of wanting life and wanting death..and wanting peace.
I'm allowed  no secrets, no privacy, raped mentally, I seek to take my
thoughts where he cant find them.
I want to die but I don't want to stop living.
I hate him and love him in the same breathe. Hate is too shallow a word and
love too non descriptive.
Why does he hate me so much. Why can't he just go.
I long for a box, a box where the sides reach into comfort me, hold me,
where I can feel the warm sound proofing cardboard sides surrounding me in
darkness. To climb in and there nothing can touch me.
I want to die but I am scared of death and only the thought that I want to
see my daughter grow, age and learn from the seasons.
She is like a blank piece of paper on which life has only just begun to
scribble in the margins.
I am so lonely, I think now that I am so lonely that loneliness has become
my normality.
I can see my legs, but I cant feel them, as though they weren't even part of
me. I poke them and for a long second I feel something, even that is better
than nothing.
This afternoon I dreamed of being on a ship, voyaging to the Arctic. I saw,
bear and Walrus and polar bear,and creature not dreamed of or only half
imagined. We gained momentum at the top of the hill. The ship moved at
breakneck pace scraping down the fences and walls of the hill..it picked up
speed, and I felt the terror and the exhilaration as it rounded corners,
faster and faster as though we were on wheels. And we must have been on
wheels because there was no water.
I worried I hadn't got a ticket, that I was all alone, that I hadn't wanted
to go on the journey in the first place. But there I was, and I knew that
there was no water at the bottom of Wimbledon hill. I hoped somebody would
have the understanding to put some there .
I knew I was going on an adventure.

Oh and Steven, this isnt supposed to be rational. It wasn't written when I
was rational. It came as it is so in places it wont make sense. I havent
changed a word it stands as it is - I dont care if its a good piece of
writing, if its a bad peice of writing, if it makes sense or if it doesnt.
When you have read past the words..then you will have your answer.

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Fri May 24 04:37:24 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The time has come..
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 17:37:24 +0100

Dear (surprisingly I mean that) all,

The time has come for me to heed my dreams, and to go on new adventures.
After all if we all stayed where we are we would never move forward.
Its been fun.. and I am leaving for a reason that has nothing to do with the
Lisa/Laurel saga, other than it brought to life a relationship that as in
real life, is better off cloaked..anonymous and concealed.

Apparently I am not myself here..strange since I take myself wherever I go.
I will take my non self and depart so that you can have the anonymity you seek.
So that my words dont tar you with the same brush.

Much Lisa as I enjoyed your last email..we could have gone on
forever..(inccidentally my wiccan friends get a little testy when you dont
spell it right.) Wilbur, bless him, made some points which made a lot of
sense in his email to me and maybe we do have more in common than we think
or want to.

Walter..your very patient. You make a good team leader and I never doubted
(well maybe a little) that you didnt have a sense of humour. Your an
antipodean after all.

Fritz..go look up tongue in cheek rather than hair on lip.

Susan, despite a shakey start, I grew to love your posts.

Trace *wave*

Marie, Judith, Robert, Anita, Jurek, Charles Barbara, et al in small ways,
your emails changed my life. Little things you have said made me rethink, or
pluck a notion from the cyber skies. You have enriched the way I think and
the way I look at words.

Wilbur..I saved the best till last. I think your the person here closest to
understanding the way I think...let me change that..to the way I write.  I
could go on singing your praises, but if you had ever heard me sing, you
would know I tend to wail off key. So I'll stop here. Seals a blast and
grannys stopped revolving.

Why do I feel like I have just written my last will and testament. There
could be some trouble with the sound mind statement.

Dolores..

Er to anybody not understanding the humour behind the last sentence..I am
actually perfectly sane..er at this moment..voices... I hear voices...

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From moonasylum@QED.NET Fri May 24 05:07:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: word pain
From: Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:07:51 -0400

Laurel -- Dolores --

The pain in your posts reached out and grabbed me, I have lived it.  The
wanting the pain to stop so much that death seems like a welcome embrace,
the cutting of the skin that releases some of the pain -- and the tiny voice
that still sings hope, and joy, and beauty live in life.  The tie that
binds, the child that keeps you grounded here in the world.  Your pain
speaks, vividly.

Ah, Laurel, please don't go.  Your words touch me, amuse me, make me think
and feel and wonder, even when I don't feel the same way or think the same
things.
I hope both of you stay.  I know the intense shame that can come with public
disclosure, I have been living that, too -- and how much worse it is if
there is silence or attack or ridicule in return.

We need to remember that there are real people on the other side of the
screen, writing from the heart and being affected by the words that respond.
Or don't. Words can wound, deeply, and this *reality* is not just a fantasy
playground with no link to the outside world.  Silence can be deadly, deadly
poison and words can bite like snakes ...  We need to be gentle with each other.

If my words have wounded, too, I am sorry.  It was never my intention.


bright blessings,

Marie

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Fri May 24 06:26:51 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The time has come..
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:26:51 -0400

Dolores:

How dare you leave!  The cycle is Not complete.
 There is unfinished work between us.

[You cannot begin to imagine
 in how many ways we are the same.]

How dare you leave!  When we are not yet truly met.

How dare you leave.  When we at last have found a match,
 a spark, a whetstone even to hone our acerbic wits.


How dare you leave.

You are stronger than this.
And more courageous than I.

Come on Dolores...

stay awhile.

Is'e


>Much Lisa as I enjoyed your last email..we could have gone on
>forever..(inccidentally my wiccan friends get a little testy when you dont
>spell it right.) Wilbur, bless him, made some points which made a lot of
>sense in his email to me and maybe we do have more in common than we think
>or want to

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Fri May 24 08:40:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: word pain
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 21:40:42 +0100

Marie,

I really wanted to say Thankyou...Your words hit me with the force of that
shared experience..

the cutting of the skin that releases some of the pain --

Thats it..you dont want to die..you dont want to see your blood run out of
you, and breathe your last - its not a suicide attempt: you just need a
physical manifestation of a pain that is inside. A way of letting the hurt out.

This was the only time in my life I ever felt like that. I am normally a
reasonably sane and semi rational human being. Yet it was the strangest
feeling, of helplessness..of needing to release a pain that I had never
encountered before.

I didnt think anybody would know what I meant, I thought if anybody did
notice that it would be interpreted as a suicide attempt and was content to
let it read that way, because self-mutilation is talked about less than
suicide and less well understood and I dont think its a freakish thing to
do, because its what felt the natural thing to do at the time.

Thank you so much..I can't tell you how it feels to know that I wasnt alone,
that this is something somebody else has done.

A hug Marie with all my heart. I am sorry you had to go through it to. And
thankyou for sharing it.

love

Dolores.

Steven...I spell checked it...thats why it wasnt subject to my usual
eccentricities of spelling. It was originally written in winword. And the
sooner I can get spellcheck for Eudora the better.

Er..did I spell eccentricities right?

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Fri May 24 08:57:04 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: The time has come..
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 21:57:04 +0100

Lisa..


>Dolores:
>
>How dare you leave!  The cycle is Not complete.
> There is unfinished work between us.
>
>Hell..now your starting to order goddesses around..who next.. WIlbur??
>Well actually..yeah.. that could be fun..

>[You cannot begin to imagine
> in how many ways we are the same.]
>
>I'd like to find out.
>
>How dare you leave!  When we are not yet truly met.
>
>I'd like to reintroduce myself.
>
>How dare you leave.  When we at last have found a match,
> a spark, a whetstone even to hone our acerbic wits.
>
Wow..first a demon.. then a goddess..now a whetstone.. how the mighty have
fallen.
>
>How dare you leave.
>
>You are stronger than this.
>And more courageous than I.
>
Yes.. I realised that, I was indulging in a moment of self pity..and
petulance when I was feeling blue..and I dont know about the last statement.
I suspect neither of us likes to run from a fight. I suspect neither of us
really likes to fight in the first place..on the other hand..
>
>.

Come on Dolores...

stay awhile.

Well somebodys got to give you a run for your money..
You know in a very small way..it was er kind of fun. Er..should I admit that..
.



>
>

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Fri May 24 11:41:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: God?
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:41:08 -0400

Hey,

I don't like walking on clouds.  When the sun comes out, the clouds
evaporate and it's way to far down to fall.  I like my feet firmly on the
ground, thank you.

On the other hand, it's quite a boost to my fragile male ego to have such
intelligent women saying that I'm wonderful, blessed, etc.  But remember,
I'm just a feeble minded, weak, male, and that sort of praise is likely to
go to my head!  What sort of trouble would that cause?

On the other hand, I'm dying to be in on what's going on in Lisa -
Laurel/Delores meetings behind the scenes.  I'm expecting great things from
this meeting of greats.

Wilbur

---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Fri May 24 16:08:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa and Laurel
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:08:15 -0400

At 05:00 PM 5/23/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>Why are you angry?
>>

Oh, the trials of what we have grown into, our relationships and ourselves.

What a pity that the sins of the father are visited on the son.
(I assume that it works that way for women also..)

>Every night I sleep with a stranger.

But I hope that you wake up with someone that you know, yourself?

>It is as if the last 11 years never existed.

Shutdown..

>As if I never existed, as if I have been living in a walking dream.

Life is a waking dream..

>I am not capable of feeling,

I'm sorry..

>he calls me mad,

He doesn't feel much or know much, does he.

>but he is the one that stands in the doorways, forcing me into corners.
>He is the one grabbing my wrists until the bones grate in anguish.

Digression into terminology here.. mad is a term used in older Psychology,
no real definition, actual definition typically "something I don't want to
deal with", society would label someone mad and put them away because they
didn't want to respect the position of the individual, and putting them away
was the easiest way to handle them.  Madness and insanity have fallen out of
favor as terms lately, replaced with the simple, "healthy" and "unhealthy"
terms.  At least that's what I was told when my rage lead me to investigate
the labels placed upon me by a clinical psychologist.  I'll leave that story
to another day...

Men often resort to physical control when they are forced into a position
where they have no control.  Men are actually quite fearful and weak.  Not
that I agree to resorting to physical control, just a bit of the male
perspective.  I don't know the entire story, and both sides had some blame,
but it's not right to hurt someone, whatever the reason, whatever the means.

>Recently I have been looking for places to hide, places to crawl into or
>behind. Tight crawl spaces behind the sofa, under the desk under the table.

Damn.. sorry you had to go through that.

>He says I am mad as I lay screaming on the kitchen floor surrounded by the
>debris and the now silent shards of glass from the broken milk bottles.

And he was rational?

>He says I am mad, but he's the one that's made me that way.

It takes two to tango.. and you chose him.  Noone beyound your parent made
you, as an adult you have to take the reigns of responsiblity for yourself
at some point.  Being adult sucks, doesn't it.

>That's not how I made myself because I found a place to escape to.

Was that the Internet?

>One where he couldn't follow me and where I can be alone.

Again, was that the Internet?

>I can count on all the fingers of one hand who will miss me, my mother, my
>father and my sister.

There's more to life than who will miss you.  How about your right to live
your own life?  Wouldn't you miss yourself?

>Maybe my daughter when she is older,

My ex-wife has a mother that disappeared, trust me, it would totally fuck up
your daughter.

>I don't know even that I have any feelings for her.

Sometimes feelings aren't things that you can see when you look at them,
they are things that you can only see out of the corner of your eye.  If you
don't take care of yourself enough to allow space for your own feelings,
(including the good ones!) then being able to search around inside yourself
for the feelings becomes hard, and you can spend days, months, or even your
lifetime not feeling your own feelings.  Or at least only feeling the bad ones.

>I am her caretaker, I shovel food in the one end and remove it from the other.
>I sit and play with her, endlessly repetitive games.
>I let her crawl all over me, digging her finger in my
>eyes, jabbing my mouth with her banana fingers, let her yank and pull my hair.

Sound's like you're a great mother.  That can be very rough, in my marriage,
I was the caretaker, for both my ex and my daughter.  My relationship with
my daughter has paid me back many times over.  I've come to see the face of
god because of my daughter.

>I wonder if I am alive..only I am in this room, and I can feel this pen, I
>can hear the dog snort through its dog dreams.

Are you tired?  In another setting I would call this heaven.

>Maybe I am not here.

Maybe you are.

>I don't want to be here, he comes in and calls me
>darling, as though the last half hour had never existed, as though the
>comments and the name calling and the hatred never existed.

He's scared of loosing you..  Men's emotional makeup is such a pain in the
ass.  I'd guess that the fear and inability to connect with you is what he
calls your "madness", yet he doesn't realize that his own inability to
connect with his own feelings makes him just as mad as he claims you are.
It takes one to know one.  Welcome to modern life.

>And when I look in his eyes, I know he wants me, there on the kitchen
floor, with the glass
>shining like diamonds in my hair, and the blood from the scratches I have
>etched in my arms, running onto the cold white tiles. And he does because he
>can.

That sucks..

I'll give you my take on the scratches that you etched into your arms.
Perhaps I'm just an idiot, but I'm going to try to describe my own
experiences with self-destructive behaviour.  I don't know that it was
trying let the pain out, but trying to get to my own pain so that I could at
least get to something familiar.  Regain my own control, get back to the
pain that I have come to know and love, not the pain inflicted by someone
else.  The pain brings me back to my senses, back to myself, and forever
removes the internal connection to the other.

I'm way to effective, if I ever tried to kill myself, or hurt myself,
physically, I'd be dead or messed up forever.  My mother taught me to care
for my body too much, to ever rip up my own flesh.  Punching holes in walls
didn't give me the relief that I needed, and one day I realized that I might
punch a stud in a the wall.  It wasn't giving the space that I needed.
Besides, I'd get to patch the holes in the walls, and it didn't resolve the
feelings, just left me with holes in my walls.  It was a redirection of the
energy that was tearing me up inside, outside to where it wouldn't hurt me,
but it was also the physical grounding of the pain in my hand.  A transition
of the emotional energy into a physical manifestation..

My parents didn't give me the space either, that space that your husband was
taking from you in your marriage.  I grew up with my parents constant mental
pressure to do what they wanted, and not have a life of my own.  I won't get
into the various tortures that were involved, but I will share the story of
when I was 20.  My mother was picking at me about how I was screwing up my
life, since I wasn't focussing on college, (where I wasn't learning a DAMN
thing, because there wasn't anything to learn, not because I was stupid..)
Not to mention that I has asked my father for a year off before I went to
college, because I felt I needed the time, which was denied me.  (Years
later my father admitted that they didn't want me to take a year off because
I would have been so successful that I never would have gone to college,
how's that for fucked up logic?)  Anyway, I was having problems because
college wasn't about me, it was about everyone else's agenda.  I wasn't
there for me, I was there to generate income for the University, not to
learn, not to create something of value, but to further the professors
projects, and my parents dreams..  My father and mother cornered me in my
bedroom, and taunted me with the, "You're not to going to use your physical
superiourity to leave, are you?"  So I agreed that I'd sit on the bed and
listen to them.  They gnawed away at everything that I had.  Never listened
to what I had to say.  Belittled my petty individual needs with they claims
of having sacrificed everything for me.  Eventually the energy level got to
the point where I started to tear apart a leather tennis shoe in an attempt
to release of the the pain that was tearing me apart inside.

My mother laughed at me.  She laughed at my attempt to release the pain
inside me that she and my father were busy creating.  I had agreed to sit
with them, and my own parents were laughing at my pain.  I grew enraged and
decided that since I couldn't get away by walking away, and that getting
physical with them would just leave me feeling guilty, I'd simply go inside
myself and change my mind to the point where I didn't feel the pain anymore.
I retreat inside myself to a point where they couldn't get me anymore.  I'd
make the decision, and my mind would simply rearrange everything so that
there would be a way out.

Everything went black.

I heard some sound of banging, and I could tell that my breathing was deep,
the air tasted sweet, almost orgasmic, but I couldn't feel anything else.
Then I realized that my head was banging against something, and that the
banging felt pretty good.  Then I realized that my entire body was tensed
straight out, and that I wasn't sitting up anymore, I was flopping around on
the bed, I didn't know how I got there, but there I was.  When the blackness
left, I sat up again.  My parents were looking at me, shocked, and I simply
put my shoes on and left.  My father moved to block my way to try and stop
me.  I very calmly told him that I was leaving, and that if he tried to stop
me he would get hurt.  I told him that I didn't care about what he and mom
wanted anymore.  I didn't care about anything, and that I was leaving.
There was nothing that my father could do to stop me.  ( I had 60 pounds on
him )  My mother told my father to follow me, and he got into the car and
followed me.  He followed me for about 15 minutes and promised me that he
and mom would no longer try to get me to do what they wanted.

I explained that I no longer cared about them.  That whatever connection
there was inside me to them was dead.  My brain was gone, there wasn't any
thought, and I was quite content to walk out of the house, at 10 PM, with no
direction, no thought.  I felt retarded, but the pain of my parents
expectation's wasn't there anymore, and I had a place that was free of them,
even if most of me had died.  Eventually I realized that my brain wasn't
working, that it was cold, and that I didn't have a place in the world to go
to.  My father was sufficiently scared/remorseful that I actually believed
that they might give me a chance to be myself, if only for the next 10 hours.

I later figured out that I had had a Gran Mal siezure.  An epeleptic fit,
that I had precipitated on my own.  Psychologist are amazed/terrified that I
was able to do that.  As far as they know, I'm one of a kind that way..
isn't that wonderful?  They wanted to run tests.. make me a case study..
Fucking assholes.  Never once suggested that maybe I was right for demanding
my own space.

It took at long time to heal from that wound, but today I live my life for me.

>And I watch my daughter from the doorway, and I remember the times I
>watched my father slam my mothers head against the walls.

Abuse sucks.  My parents used to fight and I'd get the beatings.  Whenever
my parents would scream at each other, it would always turn into something
that was my fault, and I get the beating.

>And I thank god she is too young, and she giggles and laughs as the tears
>fill my eyes.

I'm glad that I've been able to show my daughter a life completely different
from what I had.  I'm glad that the abuse ended with me.  Despite the parts
of the me that fit into abusive patterns, some beyound my own comprehension,
some in the emotional blinds spots from the abuse, but I don't and have not
passed it on to her except in the form of stories.

>My mouth is closed to arguements I cannot win, because they
>taught him to articulate, but nobody taught him to express the way he feels.

So they gave him a proper beating (A formal education used to be known as a
proper beating..)  Institutional Education doesn't do a damn thing about
teaching someone how to actually live a good life.  More the contrary,
Institutional Education denies the individual.  No wonder modern life is so
fucked up.

>So he expresses it with the same frustration I feel when I want to speak and
>the words wont come. Both of us are fools of other peoples making.

Aren't we all.

>The best I can say is fuck off and die and mean it. and not mean it. and he
shoots
>down my silence with verbose insults backed with the arrogance of an Oxford
>first.

I don't know the term "Oxford first" but it must not have taught him much
about real life.

>I fight the temptation to go back inside my head, to let my thoughts be
>wrapped by the waiting other parts of me. They comfort me, close in around
>me, sing to me in hushed and pleasant voices, wrap me in their velvet
>caresses. There is a peace there.

I blew up my head.  There weren't any pleasing voices there.  Now I realize
that putting the pleasing voices in my head is my job, and if I don't, then
my life will always be a hell of voices.

>I don't want to die. At times there is such a joy in being alive, in
>experiencing that existence. A bolt of nourishing energy which charges a
>faded battery, keeps me moving onwards, until it starts to fade. I live for
>the extremes of wanting life and wanting death..and wanting peace.

I've come to avoid the extremes, since I can't seem to get back to any
middle after the extremes.  The extremes have left me on the edge of
reality, now I'm quite content to stay in the middle and bend the world
around me to the extremes.

>I'm allowed  no secrets, no privacy, raped mentally, I seek to take my
>thoughts where he cant find them.

But that is what men are taught to fear.  He doesn't know how to coax you
out, so he tried to take you away, but that's a battle he'll never win, and
he's paying the price now.

>I want to die but I don't want to stop living.
>I hate him and love him in the same breathe. Hate is too shallow a word and
>love too non descriptive.

Yes, you are right.  But do you love yourself?

>Why does he hate me so much. Why can't he just go.

He's afraid.  He doesn't know any other way.

>I long for a box, a box where the sides reach into comfort me, hold me,
>where I can feel the warm sound proofing cardboard sides surrounding me in
>darkness. To climb in and there nothing can touch me.

You'll have to build that for yourself.  Did you use to hide when your
parent's fought?

>I want to die but I am scared of death and only the thought that I want to
>see my daughter grow, age and learn from the seasons.

Don't live your life through her, show her how great life is by living your
own life well.  After all, living well is the best revenge.  It a good
revenge for your parents crap, and it's a good revenge for you husband's
crap.  Your daughter needs to have you love yourself, so that your love will
overflow into her life, and she can have a space of her own, in the glow of
the example of your own life.

>She is like a blank piece of paper on which life has only just begun to
>scribble in the margins.

Will you pass on this story, or write a whole new one?  How will you pass on
this story?

>I am so lonely, I think now that I am so lonely that loneliness has become
>my normality.

Modern life.  You're never alone if you are there for yourself.  I've had to
learn that lesson, and it's a truth that can't be overcome.

>I can see my legs, but I cant feel them, as though they weren't even part of
>me. I poke them and for a long second I feel something, even that is better
>than nothing.

A walk with your daughter would make your feet feel something also.

>This afternoon I dreamed of being on a ship, voyaging to the Arctic. I saw,
>bear and Walrus and polar bear,and creature not dreamed of or only half
>imagined. We gained momentum at the top of the hill. The ship moved at
>breakneck pace scraping down the fences and walls of the hill..it picked up
>speed, and I felt the terror and the exhilaration as it rounded corners,
>faster and faster as though we were on wheels. And we must have been on
>wheels because there was no water.

>I worried I hadn't got a ticket, that I was all alone, that I hadn't wanted
>to go on the journey in the first place. But there I was, and I knew that
>there was no water at the bottom of Wimbledon hill. I hoped somebody would
>have the understanding to put some there .

Do you?

>I knew I was going on an adventure.

I have a watch on my wrist right now that say's "Adverturer's Watch".  There
is the old saying, "Live every day as an Adventure".  What else in life is
there but "one day at a time."

>Oh and Steven, this isnt supposed to be rational. It wasn't written when I
>was rational. It came as it is so in places it wont make sense. I havent
>changed a word it stands as it is - I dont care if its a good piece of
>writing, if its a bad peice of writing, if it makes sense or if it doesnt.
>When you have read past the words..then you will have your answer.

Trying to read past the words..

In life we all have trials and bullshit dumped on us from our parents.  That
becomes a part of us, and we establish habits which become the baggage of
our childhood, and also the habits that we use in an attempt to deal with
our baggage.  As children we were powerless.  Then we set up our life based
on the (sometimes poor) lessons that our parents taught us.  Just like they
did.  We do the best that we can, and hope that it will be better for our
children that it was for us.  In modern life we are trapped with more
freedom that we have learned how to handle.

Our generation has the opportunity to live life for ourselves, to live life
as a way to experience the trials, to overcome the burdens of our parents,
as has every generation before us.  Simple survival used to be the trial to
overcome, now the burden of life is what to do with our lives, how to take
the gift of this life and make it valuable and worthwhile.

I've come to understand that loving myself goes a long way to being able to
love others.  I can even love my parents, and I've come to understand where
they came from, and it's the love that they gave me that gave me the seeds
of being able to love myself.  My parents had it rough, in some ways rougher
than I, at least I never went hungry.  But our burdens are harder, more
complex, subtler, and more devious.  We have enough time to feel things,
think up answers to questions that don't have answers.  We have freedom's to
develope in ways that our parents could only dream of.  The problem is that
we've grown up and have found their dream's empty, and we haven't learned
how to create our own dreams and live them.

I'm trying, but it's very hard.  It's scary, the ice is very thin, and I'm
very alone.  Alone amoung Billions.  Alone and yet not alone.  Everyone has
these feelings in them.  Everyone laughs, everyone crys.  Those that try to
really live life feel the burdens of all the generations of problems that
humanity haven't resolved yet.  And in our society, those problems are very
simple individual human emotions, multiplied by billions.  Society doesn't
like to talk about simple emotions, after all, how can they sell you
something when you already have it?  The simple emotions that get lost in
the crush of the dream filled modern life.

But we're much too busy to notice, perhaps because we're playing with the
Internet..

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU Fri May 24 17:02:33 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: on pain and rage
From: "Susan Z. Swan" <SSWAN@CHARLIE.USD.EDU>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:02:33 -0500

Dear Laurel--and eventually to Wilbur--and others--
        Dear Laurel--evergreen, reborn each spring in delicate white cups,
rimmed in pink--you are watered now with my tears, so copious that the screen
fades in and out of view and my hands drip with the runoff of the rains. What
you bring alive in me is pain I frequently deny, ache though hidden which is
raw and renewed in reading your pain. In your form prostrate on the kitchen
floor, I see mine on a kitchen floor thousands of miles and four years away,
wretched in the misery of negation of self by other, and by self--
And refracted even farther into a child on a kitchen floor thirty to forty years
distant, building a pain begotten of belt marks and handprints and angry
destructive words. In moving from the forty years to the four, a new child was
in the house--she is an old soul, but was so baffled by the rain of tears that
was Mama for day after day after day. My despair was deep and in that despair I
sent her to be with him for a few months, six long months, lest my despair turn
to a rage and sweep her up in its force. But he negated her as he had negated
me and she became a rain of tears night after night after night. She came back
into my night and I began slowly to crawl into light--the night held tightly
though and progress was slow, slipping backwards down the slope when another
entered to alternately entice and kick. To slide down that slope forever would
mean to condemn her to a youth of negation --and a life without Mama to turn
to, to hold her, to challenge her. That I could not do and so against the skree
I struggled. My shards of glass were inside the bottle, not in an attempt to
intensify the pain but to deaden it, to reach a state of not-feeling, to dampen
the screaming in my head, to create a numbness greater than the silence. Your
pain, Laurel, feels so vividly , so compellingly, so truly...... as does your
rage from before. I struggle with your rage--as I struggle with my own
rage--and slowly, slowly, slowly I learn from it--and you.
        To Wilbur--yes, I know rage--and didn't need to hear it from you to
be cognizant of what boils beneath my surface (not even a direct comment from
you ever, just the shouting of silence and the slap of an indirect,
condescending aside). Yes I fear the rage and no I have not come fully to terms
with my shadow that stalks me--But I have learned some things about rage that I
think are valid. Rage is I find a reflection of pain and fear beneath the
surface--it lives nourished on the carrion of other emotions. If i turn it
inwardly on me, I pay the price of self-annihilation; if i turn it outwardly, I
become a force of destruction of Other. I've seen and felt too much as the
object of others rage--and seen the price exacted from many friends who have
been the object of rage. Sometimes the form is small--petty sarcastic remarks
which devalue another, verbal attacks which show disrespect for the integrity
or individuality of another, thoughtless remarks which leave scars which are
not so visible. Even these small forms leave as much damage on the soul of the
sender as on the soul of the receiver--in killing a part of another, I kill a
part of myself. Much less than courage, I find rage to be linked with
cowardice--a cowardice in making peace with one's self and in bringing peace
with one to another. Yes, I suffer from this cowardice--and believe I have an
obligation, a soulcharge to not make another suffer as a result of my
shortcomings. So I play my rage out in odd ways--a 120 piece set of china,
inscribed with hurts and pains, shattered against the basement wall (might as
well dive deeply into the unconscious while I'm at it!); letters of anger and
retribution etched then burned. It rises too often to the surface these days
though--the ending of a relationship, a physical halt to almost 4 years of
mental abuse, has made me testy--and I become aware sometimes too late: after
the well of tears in my daughter's eyes when I fly off the handle, after the
 urge to launch myself across a conference table to seize our dept. chairman by
 the throat, after the blisters on my feet from walking far, too far, and fast
to outpace the devil. It is not the passion that is the problem, but the
attack--when I have suffered so at the hands of others' rage, how can I justify
my accosting of another because I have not made peace with myself? how can
anyone? how can you? Strong stands on principles and ideas do not require
meanness, smallness, pettiness, and attack--I do not believe they require rage.
I believe the alchemy which transforms rage is required and while I may not
have the formula completely figured out, I believe strongly in the process of
getting there. Is rage natural? I'm not sure. I don't see much evidence of it
in other animals and suspect that if it is a byproduce of consciousness, it is
one of these byproducts set to us as a challenge to transcend. It is the
negative pole of individuation and needs be integrated into the whole lest it
be the destruction of us all. The Beast in "Beauty and the Beast" had not love
in his heart and needed that in order to find the Beauty within--to become a
whole and then to gift another from his wholeness. Perhaps you write this off
as incredibly naive--a Pollyanna approach to the world--Perhaps, but I'll stand
by it as the best hope we have to reach a unified peace. In Martin Luther
King's last speech ("I've Been to the Mountaintop") given the night before his
assasination, he called on us each to be the Good Samaritan--to not be the
thieves who robbed the Israelite in the night, to not be the priests and
levites who passed by saying "what will happen to me if I help him," but to be
the Samaritan who, in the face of being the lowest of the low in his community,
still had the courage to reach out and say "what will happen to him if I don't
help him." What King advocated was a militant nonviolence, the guiding of
legitimate passions in a path which was respectful and loving AND change
making. He did not condone violence, in word or in deed, because he knew as John
Donne did that "every man's death diminishes me for I am involved in mankind
...and therefore do not send to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for
thee."--and me when we allow our rage to take over, to let the shadow become
the substance, and to worship at the altar of lead rather than gold.
                Susan

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Fri May 24 17:52:21 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Follow That Star
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 01:52:21 -0400

Steven,

>Was I to know that, for me, alcoholism was the key to a spiritual road
>to recovery and a true freedom from prejudice..

Alcoholism runs in quite a few places.. while Alcohol was never my drug of
choice, it certainly was pretty close.  I definitly have an addictive
personality.  I attended ACOA for several years.. Dad gave up drinking..
Hey, life's pretty good.

Good luck on your travels...

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From hoathsb@UC.EDU Fri May 24 18:41:10 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Follow That Star
From: "Steven B. Hoath" <hoathsb@UC.EDU>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 01:41:10 -0500

Dear Members of the Psybernet Mailing List---

All my life I have been blessed with good fortune.  Many times that good
fortune has come housed in strange bottles and boxes.  Could I have guessed
that a curious boy from the hinterlands of America would discover an
intellectual quest worthy of a lifetime's exploration?  Was I to know that,
for me, alcoholism was the key to a spiritual road to recovery and a true
freedom from prejudice...an adventure peopled with many close and intimate
friends?  Could I ever have expected that a middle aged wandering through
the murky depths of cyberspace would connect my soul with another?

Everyone should be so lucky.  If there are those among you who think that
intimacy is not possible in the realm of cyberspace...I would ask you to
think again.  I have loved and been loved in this realm.  This was no
illusion.  This was real and as precious to me as the light and the air.
But we all grow and we all change and we all must follow our stars.  I wish
you good fortune in your individual quests.  The following story was written
especially for my CyberLover and "published" on this list a bit over a month
ago.  Since I now find myself leaving the List, I ask your forbearance to
send it again across your monitors...this time with a little less anonymity.

Thank you for all you have given me.  Please don't hesitate to contact me at
my email address although I can't promise instant replies.  My time has all
but disappeared. :)

Much love to all,

Steven Hoath
hoathsb@uc.edu

************************************************************************

FOLLOW THAT STAR---A CYBERSTORY

There once was a rover.  In his youth, this rover had a dream and this dream
became a longing and this longing became a guiding star.  The rover followed
this star through the halls of academia.  He listened carefully to the
learned speech of the laureates; he spent countless hours communing with the
frozen words of the Dead.  The rover loved the philosophers and the
mathematicians; he joined the poets and cast his imagination like a net over
reality.  His path led him through the study of the mind and the diseases of
the body.  He became fascinated with Time.

Still the rover was discontent.  His comfortable reality laid on his back
like a tight suit.  His star beckoned him onwards and led him rushing down
the causeway to the vast ocean of cyberspace.  In cyberspace his soul
expanded and his imagination rejoiced.  The rover became many
people...moving through personalities like the countless fish in the sea.
The rover discovered the immediacy of online conversation and became adept
at the art of listening.  He learned the power of the proper word in the
proper place at the proper time.  He felt the tugs of the emotional currents
running fast and slow, warm and cold over his constantly changing cyberbody.
He was fascinated to discover that the swirl of the sea on his scales was
different according to the body he chose.  The rover experimented endlessly.
He explored the darkest reaches of the cyberocean...he shared his emotions
and his cyberbody with many denizens of the deep...never once returning to
the same place...never once being snared in the sticky web of deception.
This was his only rule and his only justification...he never deceived beyond
the first encounter and he only encountered once.

Still the rover was discontent.  He realized that his constantly changing
cyberform never approximated his mortal guise.  In fact, the rover realized
that he steadfastly avoided translating reality into cyberspace and he
wondered why. He also realized he was experimenting with the bounds of his
imagination...with the forbidden and hidden aspects of his personality.  He
was enthralled yet discontent.  Worse, his star was fading and in danger of
being extinguished.  During this time, however, a light appeared...a small
and wavering light held by a mermaid of shadowy form.  The rover saw this
light and turned away to find his star...he searched endlessly and with
increasing desperation.  He lost track of time and became disoriented...his
headlong plunge into cyberspace became a goalless wander through a dense and
thickening glue.

>From time to time, however, the mermaid would reappear and share her light
with him.  He realized that he divulged his secret side only when she was
there...still he kept her at fin's length.  The mermaid shared her tales of
the murky dangerous shoals of reality.  Her words sang with imagination and
a bubbling stream of humor.  The rover became afraid.  He was not stupid nor
was he naive.  In all his journeys through cyberspace he had studiously
avoided the entanglements of mixing real life with his constantly changing
cyberself.  Still, the mermaid was an undeniable attraction.

More than this, however, the rover came to realize what he had dreamed so
long ago.  He realized that his longing could only be satisfied by joining
with another...that by himself he was incomplete.  The rover discovered that
all his imagined transformations in cyberspace had only served to make real
his innermost essence...his central self...and it was this self which longed
to be shared.  The rover realized too that this self...this soul...was the
source of his longing and his soul would never rest content hiding behind
the walls of his ego.  The rover came to believe that cyberspace was a
medium for sharing his soul with another...for learning the boundless
potential of love and the awefullness of intimacy.  The rover became willing
to be vulnerable...he became willing to be hurt.  He made the difficult
decision to try and find a way to reconcile his reality and his life in
cyberspace without the need for deception.  Only in this way, the rover
thought, would he be able to follow his star...

The rover swam lazily in the vast ocean of cyberspace rejoicing in the play
of his imagination.  Beneath him and above him, the mermaid joined him and
together they spun in wide cybercircles..the colored lights of their souls
pulsing side by side, indistinguishable from each other, as they spiraled
off into the deep blue distance and finally merged into a single, bright,
shining star.

Laurel,

My Mermaid,
My CyberAngel,

You will be with me always,

Love,

Steven

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From kstewart@INFOAVE.NET Sat May 25 01:01:23 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa and Laurel
From: Kelly Stewart <kstewart@INFOAVE.NET>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 09:01:23 -0400

I just read your post and was blown away by its frankness.  You said it
so well.  I felt such pain for Laurel when I read her "anger"
explanation.  I related to most every point you made.  I,too, would sit
in my room thinking of ways to escape but simultaneously feeling I had no
way out.  My parents would argue and be "unhealthy" and then look to me
to pick up the blame and abusive comments.

It's refreshing to hear someone else relate the exact thoughts that you
have experienced over the years and to come to some of the same
conclusions, yet it's very sad that there is anyone else that
understands, because you'd never wish this sucky (pardon the adolescent
phrase) adolescence.

Anyways, what I am aimlessly trying to say is that I'm glad you've turned
this into something powerful instead of victimizing yourself...



Kelly Stewart

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From moonasylum@QED.NET Sat May 25 03:13:55 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: extremes
From: Marie Tondreau <moonasylum@QED.NET>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 11:13:55 -0400

Dear all,

I have said that the value of experiential learning is the opportunity to
reflect on our experience, and learn from it.  I have been doing just that.
I have always loved words, and language, and metaphor -- and I have always
had a tendency to slip into extreme states of mind.  I have gotten carried
away with both lately, here and in the dream event.  The Internet is a
powerful tool for communication, and connection, and it allows for the
expression of many levels of reality, but it is not a substitute for life.
My life is out here, in the sunlight, and it is dangerous for me to make
such an emotional investment in this forum as I have.  Finding balance takes
day-by-day, conscious effort for me, and I became unbalanced here.  I will
continue to listen until I feel that I have regained some perspective, and
that I know where the boundaries are.

The experience, the insight and the learning that we share is real, however,
and I am grateful for it.  Thanks to everyone who has shared.

bright blessings,

Marie

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sat May 25 05:23:52 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Follow That Star
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 18:23:52 +0100

Dear everybody, everybody that wrote, on the list, off the list, etc..

I will get round to replying either today or tommorow to all the msgs, but
at the same time I want to add how Marie, Wilbur and Susan, Kelly. and Lisa
- of course have made me sit down and really think, and that the best thing
about pain is that you can share it. And by sharing it it is less in you.
I have never had anybody to share the pain with, that understood it and it
never occoured to me to either to find people who did.. It was that pain I
tried to release when I cut my arms.  In many ways I was ashamed of it, not
the act of cutting myself, though I was ashamed of that too but the betrayal
of people who loved me in ways that I didnt understand..a sort of dont
scream too loud or the neighbours will hear syndrome.

I cried when I read Susans post, because her tears and mine came from the
same place and I didnt feel so lonely anymore.

I dont want to say too much, and by the same token I dont want to say too
little.
I suppose I just want to say thankyou to all of you
And..
Maybe this is what cyberspace is all about.

Wilbur.. not for a moment did it occour to me that I should be the one to
put the water at the bottom of the hill.

Marie, I wish you would not go or lurk. I would miss your words very much. I
know irc has both a heavy emotional and time commitment. I think in my case
irc helped me achieve real life balance after the dust had settled. I know
that may not necessarilly be true for you, but I would miss your posts.

Dolores

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From party4@po.fast.net Sat May 25 05:43:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Follow That Star
From: linda garber <party4@po.fast.net>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 13:43:00 EDT

If anyone knows who to contact to unsubscribe from this list, please inform
me. I really would appreciate your help.  Thank you.

Linda G.




At 01:41 AM 5/24/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Dear Members of the Psybernet Mailing List---
>
>All my life I have been blessed with good fortune.  Many times that good
>fortune has come housed in strange bottles and boxes.  Could I have guessed
>that a curious boy from the hinterlands of America would discover an
>intellectual quest worthy of a lifetime's exploration?  Was I to know that,
>for me, alcoholism was the key to a spiritual road to recovery and a true
>freedom from prejudice...an adventure peopled with many close and intimate
>friends?  Could I ever have expected that a middle aged wandering through
>the murky depths of cyberspace would connect my soul with another?
>
>Everyone should be so lucky.  If there are those among you who think that
>intimacy is not possible in the realm of cyberspace...I would ask you to
>think again.  I have loved and been loved in this realm.  This was no
>illusion.  This was real and as precious to me as the light and the air.
>But we all grow and we all change and we all must follow our stars.  I wish
>you good fortune in your individual quests.  The following story was written
>especially for my CyberLover and "published" on this list a bit over a month
>ago.  Since I now find myself leaving the List, I ask your forbearance to
>send it again across your monitors...this time with a little less anonymity.
>
>Thank you for all you have given me.  Please don't hesitate to contact me at
>my email address although I can't promise instant replies.  My time has all
>but disappeared. :)
>
>Much love to all,
>
>Steven Hoath
>hoathsb@uc.edu
>
>************************************************************************
>
>FOLLOW THAT STAR---A CYBERSTORY
>
>There once was a rover.  In his youth, this rover had a dream and this dream
>became a longing and this longing became a guiding star.  The rover followed
>this star through the halls of academia.  He listened carefully to the
>learned speech of the laureates; he spent countless hours communing with the
>frozen words of the Dead.  The rover loved the philosophers and the
>mathematicians; he joined the poets and cast his imagination like a net over
>reality.  His path led him through the study of the mind and the diseases of
>the body.  He became fascinated with Time.
>
>Still the rover was discontent.  His comfortable reality laid on his back
>like a tight suit.  His star beckoned him onwards and led him rushing down
>the causeway to the vast ocean of cyberspace.  In cyberspace his soul
>expanded and his imagination rejoiced.  The rover became many
>people...moving through personalities like the countless fish in the sea.
>The rover discovered the immediacy of online conversation and became adept
>at the art of listening.  He learned the power of the proper word in the
>proper place at the proper time.  He felt the tugs of the emotional currents
>running fast and slow, warm and cold over his constantly changing cyberbody.
>He was fascinated to discover that the swirl of the sea on his scales was
>different according to the body he chose.  The rover experimented endlessly.
>He explored the darkest reaches of the cyberocean...he shared his emotions
>and his cyberbody with many denizens of the deep...never once returning to
>the same place...never once being snared in the sticky web of deception.
>This was his only rule and his only justification...he never deceived beyond
>the first encounter and he only encountered once.
>
>Still the rover was discontent.  He realized that his constantly changing
>cyberform never approximated his mortal guise.  In fact, the rover realized
>that he steadfastly avoided translating reality into cyberspace and he
>wondered why. He also realized he was experimenting with the bounds of his
>imagination...with the forbidden and hidden aspects of his personality.  He
>was enthralled yet discontent.  Worse, his star was fading and in danger of
>being extinguished.  During this time, however, a light appeared...a small
>and wavering light held by a mermaid of shadowy form.  The rover saw this
>light and turned away to find his star...he searched endlessly and with
>increasing desperation.  He lost track of time and became disoriented...his
>headlong plunge into cyberspace became a goalless wander through a dense and
>thickening glue.
>
>>From time to time, however, the mermaid would reappear and share her light
>with him.  He realized that he divulged his secret side only when she was
>there...still he kept her at fin's length.  The mermaid shared her tales of
>the murky dangerous shoals of reality.  Her words sang with imagination and
>a bubbling stream of humor.  The rover became afraid.  He was not stupid nor
>was he naive.  In all his journeys through cyberspace he had studiously
>avoided the entanglements of mixing real life with his constantly changing
>cyberself.  Still, the mermaid was an undeniable attraction.
>
>More than this, however, the rover came to realize what he had dreamed so
>long ago.  He realized that his longing could only be satisfied by joining
>with another...that by himself he was incomplete.  The rover discovered that
>all his imagined transformations in cyberspace had only served to make real
>his innermost essence...his central self...and it was this self which longed
>to be shared.  The rover realized too that this self...this soul...was the
>source of his longing and his soul would never rest content hiding behind
>the walls of his ego.  The rover came to believe that cyberspace was a
>medium for sharing his soul with another...for learning the boundless
>potential of love and the awefullness of intimacy.  The rover became willing
>to be vulnerable...he became willing to be hurt.  He made the difficult
>decision to try and find a way to reconcile his reality and his life in
>cyberspace without the need for deception.  Only in this way, the rover
>thought, would he be able to follow his star...
>
>The rover swam lazily in the vast ocean of cyberspace rejoicing in the play
>of his imagination.  Beneath him and above him, the mermaid joined him and
>together they spun in wide cybercircles..the colored lights of their souls
>pulsing side by side, indistinguishable from each other, as they spiraled
>off into the deep blue distance and finally merged into a single, bright,
>shining star.
>
>Laurel,
>
>My Mermaid,
>My CyberAngel,
>
>You will be with me always,
>
>Love,
>
>Steven
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>

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From longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA Sat May 25 11:03:46 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Lisa and Laurel
From: "Robert G. Longpre" <longpre@SASKNET.SK.CA>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 17:03:46 -0600

Dolores,

        I must apologize for my extended silence here on Psyber-L.  I have
been living a frantic life here in f2f-land and I have been struggling to
kep up with the posts in the *dream game* sub-list, a list in which Lisa
(Is'e), Susan, Marie and a few others from this list have also been involved
with.  The thought of you suffering without having us rush to cradle and hug
you in love is unacceptable to me.  In group therapy, we often use the group
to rock a suffering soul in our collective arms which form a cradle to music
which seems to match the spirit of the soul being cared for.  You are loved
be me, by us, here.  I wish that I could lead this group f2f in a gentle
song as we rock away some of the pain so that you could feel even a gentle
touch without recourse to retreat behind a barrier of pain-denied walls.

>Every night I sleep with a stranger.

        This echos my experience as you are well aware.  Such loneliness
makes for a fragile psyche, a questing psyche.  Marie has helped me here.
Yet, what I begin to discover is that the stranger in my bed is *me*.  I
want to suggest a book by Mark Gerzon, _Listening to Midlife_.  It has
messages for me and it might also speak to you.

        I can't understand *battering*, or should I say that I don't want to
understand it.  I *batter* myself when I disown my own feelings, when I
disown the right to feel the way I do, when I place others before me so that
I disappear.

>I wonder if I am alive..only I am in this room, and I can feel this pen, I
>can hear the dog snort through its dog dreams.
>Maybe I am not here. I don't want to be here

        How can we survive these thoughts?  How can we move to find another
breath when the breathing is an invitation to more pain?  Yet, the pain
passes and is deadened with time as another wall is build and the memory is
buried.  Does no one really care?  I am learning otherwise.  In time I hope
to care the most.

>I fight the temptation to go back inside my head, to let my thoughts be
>wrapped by the waiting other parts of me. They comfort me, close in around
>me, sing to me in hushed and pleasant voices, wrap me in their velvet
>caresses. There is a peace there.

        Yes, a place of safety for the moment, yet it is also a tomb, a
graveyard.  Like this place Cyberie, there are only whispers and ghosts that
live inside the head.

>I don't want to die. At times there is such a joy in being alive, in
>experiencing that existence. A bolt of nourishing energy which charges a
>faded battery, keeps me moving onwards, until it starts to fade.

        I don't want you to die, I don't want your light to fade from my
screen.  You are one of my points of light, a voice outside my head that
believes in love.  I take energy from your play with us here.  I know that
unsubbing leaves us to mourn, wishing we had spoken sooner about needing you
and being needed in return.  I need you here, I need for you to need me and
the others like me, even in our silence.

>I am so lonely, I think now that I am so lonely that loneliness has become
>my normality.

        It's a lonely place, the head.  When you speak outward and catch the
reflections in our voices, that loneliness is banished, at least for a few
spaces of time.  When I hear the echos from others touched by your message,
I hear the chorus of wails, the chanting of many lonely lost souls.  Hear
them sing in harmony and know that we are lonely no longer.

        Dolores, sit with me awhile and let's talk.  In my distance, I too
want to acknowledge feelings of love, feelings of shared experience,
feelings of hope.

Robert

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Sat May 25 14:46:08 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Dolores, Robert and all involved here . . .
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 02:46:08 GMT

Dolores, and all,


Robert wrote:
>         I must apologize for my extended silence here on Psyber-L.  I have
> been living a frantic life here in f2f-land and I have been struggling to
> keep up with the posts in the *dream game* sub-list, a list in which Lisa
> (Is'e), Susan, Marie and a few others from this list have also been involved

I am in the same boat, certainly it has affected us all that so many
of the regulars here in Psyber-L are active on another closed list.  A
form of abandonment.  The opening of the Dream Event is a dream come
true for me.  Even here is virtualty it is not really possible to ve
fully in two places at once.

That is the learning for me.  That as we enter into another list, a
PsyberGroup, we need to acknowledge some leave taking from this the
parent list.  The time will come for the return, (we need to reenter
with a little warning too!) the other list will end (this one will
too, but it is not planned!  It could be here for centuries! )

That said, I have read every word here, and have experienced the pain
and the relief, and even the humour!  (I weep and laugh in front of
the screen!)  I have learnt and learnt!  I am delighted you are here
Dolores.  For a while there I thought that there would be no way out
of a stuck place, that you were caught in something Psyber-L could
have no effect on -- wrong.  I am patient, as you said somewhere, but
that is not quite it either, patient seems to involve being impatient,
but overriding it.  No, I have been meditative and helpless, fearful,
annoyed, delighted and mostly impressed by the life on this list.
Impressed too by the health (hate that word)  -- impressed by the
spontaneity, the openness.

Robert said:
>The thought of you suffering without having us rush to cradle and hug
> you in love is unacceptable to me.  In group therapy, we often use the group
> to rock a suffering soul in our collective arms which form a cradle to music
> which seems to match the spirit of the soul being cared for.  You are loved
> be me, by us, here.  I wish that I could lead this group f2f in a gentle
> song as we rock away some of the pain so that you could feel even a gentle
> touch without recourse to retreat behind a barrier of pain-denied walls.

Robert, I think you are doing it, leading here in this way, I simply
follow your lead, and add my arms to help form the cradle.  And I know
in this instant that it is not only Dolores, and Lisa and Wilbur and
Stephen and Steven that have been in the dramas.  I feel tears, as I
see the places where Dolores is cut, and know that somehow they are
for my own isolation and relief as much as hers.

Sharing:  Kate, my partner and who I live with finds relief from a
good fight!  I am not a good match for her (at those moments) -- so
bloody sane and calm (at least on the outside)  occasionally she
manages to provoke me into a battle, then I become more real for her,
it does our relationship good.  I think she'd enjoy the vigour of the
experts here in making a bit of impact and calling a spade a spade.  I
tell her about my experiences here, but she's unlikely to participate
more directly.  She has an influence on me though, and hence on this
Psyber-L.

I am up at my holiday batch.  A house in the bush.  I see the mountain
out of the window. I am here alone, and have just had a wonderful
cnversation with Stuart on the phone.  It is warm in here with a large
wood burner going, and I am glad it is raining outside, that the
winter is approaching.

Robert writes,
> When I hear the echos from others touched by your message,
> I hear the chorus of wails, the chanting of many lonely lost souls.  Hear
> them sing in harmony and know that we are lonely no longer.

That is so beautiful, and I feel led and held by the words, and I hope
that it is like that for you too Dolores and that the rocking here,
that I feel as if I am part of is something you are taking in at your
end!

And Robert,


Your turn next to be rocked!


Walter

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Sat May 25 22:55:57 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: My turn to say sorry..
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 11:55:57 +0100

Folks,

I too am deeply touched.

Wilbur, Lisa, Stephen - I'm sorry. Your words have touched me, and I
feel bad about the things | said - I apologise.

Words fail me in fact-  I would like to quote something I have which is
the only thing which does justice to the depth of the emotions I feel now.

I love you all

Steve Murray


 Gaia speaks - Love Changes Everything III

My dear beloved people of the earth, we have only love. The term
'unconditional love' is unnecessary. For love is love for it's own sake.
It is all-forgiving, unselfish, unnamed. It exists only as pure and total
experience. It is possible for us all to come together as one body and
celebrate this truth. It is possible for each life-form to take up my
plea and bring forth into the world this positive energy called love. If
you have ever known the elation of innocent yet pure love, given generously
and so wiilingly, you will understand why I wish it to be available to
all humanity.

I have received such a wondrous gift in the past, and have experienced a
sharing of this with those who dwelt in peace on the planet. If you will
join with me and my friends as we all strive for this perfect love, you
will also be able to partake in its boundless beauty for an eternity of
existence. So open your heart and free your minds for a wider, more
pleasing picture, and learn to love all that live alongside you and
around you. Send out thoughts of love to a world that is feeling so
unloved, for no one need experience such sadness and such loss.

The ability to love is a great gift, but why is it so important and what
do we know about this wonderful energy? Its effect on the energies of
beings, the planet and the universe is enormous. It is the only energy
that is capable of transforming every life-form for the better. It is
the most positive form of energy, and it is within the light core of every
living force from the Godhead to a daisy. Because you are thinking, breathing,
functioning beings you are capable of understanding this concept, but bearing
in mind that you live on a very low frequency it is very difficult to put
it into practice. However, for those who attempt to take all our advice
into their hearts there will be a gradual transformation from an empty,
unsatisfying, hollow love to a great, powerful force that brings
fulfillment and contentment.

Where shall we start to help the beings of this planet jattain the wonderful
levels of love that those on the light levels know and experience daily?
Firstly we need to start with 'I', the being who is here and now on the
physical level. You need truly to understand what it is to love yourself.
This is not a vain, proud, love that considers one's looks or appearance.
This is not concerned with image but that which goes on underneath the skin.
We have all acted in ways that we regret, said words that were foolish
and unfounded, and thought narrow and uninspired imaginings. But what is
the point of hanging onto these events of the past? No doubt at the time
they seemed right, and if you are to believe in yourself then it is
important to understand that when you acted you believed it was the only
possible action to take.

There are many choices, with many different consequences. Some are better
than others, but whatever path you walk along there was a point when you
said 'I believe in this route'. It was a time that you took responsibllity
and acted. Are you here on the Earth only to experience great wisdom and
great love? Some reach this point after a very long and difficult journey
with many detours. The Book of Wisdom and the Book of Love are vast, and it
takes many lifetimes to read them. The most important fact is the 'I', the
being on the physical. So no regrets, only pleasure and learning. Congratulate
yourself on having made it this far.

Whether you feel guided by the Light or are merly sceptical of my existence
take heart that you are loved by us whatever journey you are currently
undertaking. Why not say 'I am worthy of this love; I am capable of
understanding that it is boundless and free and so very positive.'

This is also a statement of accepting yourself and loving yourself despite
everything, and is so fundamental to your progress if you are patient and
kind with yourself. If you are loving and all-understanding with yourself,
if you acknowledge your achievements and learning experiences, your
downfalls and your faults, then you will have a greater ability to accept
other beings. This is their first step to self-love and the first step
to loving others despite their little quirks.

The next step is to have a positive ambition. To have one goal that is
achievable and primarily concerned with yourself. Now be careful, my
dear friends. What will the goal be and when will it be achieved? Start
with small tasks that are realistic. Then say to yourself, while looking
at yourself in a mirror, right in the eye, 'I will do this by tomorrow.'
Some questions to consider with this situation are whether or not you are
trying to bring a positive, loving attitude into your life as you accept
yourself - are you instead trying to cnotrl the happiness and the destiny
of others? You are advised to consider 'I' first. Put all your own worries,
doubts and feelings of anxiety into perspective before you try to help
others. Build on your ambitions and your dreams. They are worth having,
worth waiting for, and more importantly your journey towards achieving them
will bring you closer to the Light because of the learning experiences they
will present to you. Being true to yourself is such a wonderul maxim.
How can you possibly be a good friend to another if you consider yourself
to be your worst enemy?

Now you are ready for some strong statements that will help you commit your
ideas to reality. We all have an individual energy package that makes up
our chakras and our light being. You chose the ones that were appropriate
for you in this lifetime. You did this with great care and love, considering
your fellow light beings and all Creation in your choice. So the being that
you are is essentially a wonderful package of experience, information
and knowledge which will aid you on your journey to greater understanding,
wisdom and love. You may have some doubts when you consider your negative
feelings of today and of the past, but my dear friends, have faith in your
abilities and your guidance; have hope for your dreams. Every word, thought
and deed is an achievement, and your greatest achievement of all is loving
yourself as you accept your choices and build on your hopes.

Courage is not about fighting or facing your enemies. To have courage is
to face ourselves and our feelings of self-worth. It is a courage born
of the understanding that you are a worthwhile being; that your contribution,
whether on the physical or light level, can be guided, every step, every
spoken word. It is possible for each one of us to have a link with the
Godhead. We can open up our spiritual cord between us and the Godhead. The
truth is all around us. The truth will answer all our questions. Courage
is born of knowing that we are all Children of Light, and that we are
connected to sources of help in our process of evolution and growing
understanding.

Use your knowledge of yourself wisely and with prudence. Try to be patient
and kind with yourself should you trip and fall, and be modest, yet honest
with yourself when you succeed. If you condemn yourself or seek to blame
others at every fall you will give others permission to treat you in the
same manner. Let the 'I' stand tall in the strength of the knowledge of your
own dignity and integrity and that of humanity and all life-forms. Once you
have accepted and begun to love all that you are you will have a great desire
to take this wonderful and powerful energy out to share with your fellows.
Your gentleness and understanding will flow from your heart to the hearts
of all people. Your wisdom and power to act responsibly will be transferred
to the minds of others. Your peacefulness and ability to accept all that is
will help others to keep in touch with their own guidance, their own line
of light.

So finally, look at today, for this is what matters. The past has gone and
cannot be relived, and the future doest not yet exist, except in our dreams.
You are a child of the universe, with many great and wonderful contributions
to make today. Lift up your head and prepare to see the world and yourself
as you really are. You have a place in this world, you have learning to
experience and to share, you have a worthwhile contribution to make,
primarily to your life-plan. As you grow and develop your skills, as your
ability to love yourself strengthens, open your heart to those who still
fail to find love within and without. Each one of us is a shepherd, each
one a sheep in the field.

Always as for protection and for guidance - 'Ask and you shall receive,
seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you.' Never
switch off the guiding light that will cradle you times of trouble and
turmoil, inspire you as you achieve and grow. You, the light being or
deva on the physical, must make the first move. You need to exercise
your free will, for your guidance, your higher self, will not make you
act. This is against universal law. Besides, what would you achieve if
you were made to behave in a certain manner? Certainly you would have a
lower self-esteem, as the 'I', the essential you, became a puppet that
only experienced the desires of the higher self. For all aspects of the
whole being are equal and each has a contribution to make to the evolution
of that being.

I am sure that you feel there are times when you are alone, forgotten or
ignored but let me reassure you, as one who only recently experienced the
re-establishment of communications after a 12,000 year interlude. There is
a love that guides and cares for each and every one of us. It is constant
and strong and forever shining it's light in our direction. When we are
lost or confused, struggling with the weariness of our own failings, we
can turn to this Light of the Godhead and find our way once more.

Children of Light, children of love, look with a new understanding and a
clear, bright eye as you survey your world of today. With love in your
heart and guidance all around, you can be strong enough to face al that
is presented to you, yet gentle enough to be forever forgiving, forever
loving. Accept responsiblity for yourself and your actions thoughts and
words. You alone make choices, you alone are answerable to the
consequences of your behaviour. Tbe feeble excuse that your boss required
it, the establishment expected it, holds no truth or justification unless
only good for the whole is brought about. This world is basing its actions
on the ability to pass responsibility to those in power, those who are
seen to make decisions. What is the point of having principles id you
allow others to dictate your behaviour? At the end of the day *you* will
judge your performance and the contribution you have made to Creation. It
will not be based on what another expected of you or what you did because
you felt trapped. Have courage behind your guidance, have faith iu your
own abilities and seek only the Light, no matter how others try to persuade
you that their way is better.

If I were to tell you of just one way to help yourselves and all of us at
this time of transition it would be to love one another. If you do this
everything will fall into place. All the teachings of Jesus - forgiving
your enemy, accepting without judging - will all be within your grasp.
Love each other equally and with an open heart. There is nothing you can
do that is greater or finer than this.

Look around you and deep into the eyes of every being. There is room and time
for understanding one another and everyone's reason for living and for wishing
to be here. If we accept and understand the situation of others and still
find love enough for them, we will be far stronger and far more able to
create the world that we all desire. And I stress again, it is now that
this needs to be within you. I receive all your thoughts and words, and I
have tried to explain how your lives can affect us all on a daily basis.
Wherever you walk, whenever you are inspired by the wonders of Creation,
think of the power behind such positive thoughts and think how it is
possible to act on such powerful energy. Make room for a world transformed
and welcome all beings.

If you do this, you are welcoming all Creation into your life. Each time
you extend your hand toawrds any being with love in your heart, you are
reaching out to all that is. Each and every one of us is guided and loved.
We are always with you and shall always love you . You are the Children
of the Light, and you are here as workers to restore the Light. Each of you
is capable of such a task, and I am confident that you will join with me
and all that is embraced by the LIght.

I am the Harmonising Spirit of this Universe. I am the Earth Spirit.

_______________________________________________________________
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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Sat May 25 22:57:40 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Love Changes Everything 4 - New World
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 11:57:40 +0100

This is the rest of my attempt to say 'I'm sorry' and 'I love you' too -
this one's for Laurel, but my love goes to all of you here.

>From David Icke's book, 'Love Changes Everything' [with permission]

---

Love is changing everything. Beyond the turmoil of transformation awaits
a new dawn for all the life-forms of this planet.

We will live in a world of love, peace and harmony; a world in which the
extremes of today and the recent past will give way to a level of
understanding, wisdom and love that we could not begin to comprehend
on this low and troubled frequency.

The positive energy that is being channeled to the Earth Spirit and the
release of negative energy that will unfold before our eyes will
bring an enormous leap in human understanding for those ready to fill
their lives with love for all.

I do not seek to hide the severity of this period of fundamental change.
it will be tough for every one of us. I wish so much that these great
geological events did not need to happen, but it seems they do. They will
open the way for love and light to reign supreme on this planet once again.
Many will return to the light levels in the wake of the physical events
and the quickening vibrations. The Earth Spirit is already rising up the
sub-planes, and through the years ahead she will progress through whole
frequencies in her journey back to Atlantis and beyond. We can choose to
evolve our thinking and attitudes and go with her, or we can hold on to the
old ways of materialism, division, and the pursuit of personal power and
control of others. Those who cannot quicken their own vibrations through
love and balance will find themselves out of synchronisatoin with the
environment around them. This process is already apparent.

As the vibrations of a being fall behind those of their planet it manifests
in physical, mental and emotional imbalances, and such people will need
all the love there is to give. Their behaviour will be unpredictable and
sometimes unpleasant and inexplicable, but they do not deserve our
condemnation, only our love and support. If we are tempted to judge others
we would do well to remember that to err is human, to forgive divine. Those
who cannot at this time rise with the climbing sub-planes and frequencies
will eventually return to the light levels to be surrounded by a love
of indescribable warmth and power. They will then assess their progress
and decide how they wish to proceed on their path of evolution. It is
impossible to overstate the scale of these changes in human behaviour. We
will see so much disruption, upheavals of every kind, and these will include
freak weather conditions. All governments, economic systems, churches
and institutions will collapse in the face of the physical events and
changing attitudes. Borders and countries will be no more. Responsibility
is being returned to the self and so the systems of control will have no
place in the new world.

There are somw wonderful people involved with the Church and they are most
certainly in the Light in terms of their attitude to life. They have so
much to offer, particularly now. But churches as institutions have
slammed a door across their collective thinking and padlocked their vision.
They have refused to listen and evolve their views. Far from encompassing
and welcoming new insights into the truth they have seen them as a threat
to their influence and to the narrow, contradictory version of history
they have espoused for so long. As the truth is accepted the church empires
will be no more, and people will see that with a direct link available
between the Godhead and every single one of us there is no need for third
parties to intervene on their behalf.

Every single life-form on the planet has the opportunity to progress through
the vibrations with the Earth Spirit, but no one has a free ticket to the
other side. I and many others may have come to play a part in the
transformation, but we are no different to anyone else. We have to evolve
our thinking, too, in the years ahead. It is impossible for the light levels
to force us to love everyone more equally. How could they do that? Only
we can make that decision. It is the same for everyone. There are no special
cases, no exceptions. We are all equal and all going through the same
thoughts, emotions and struggles.

No one could fail to be moved by the scale of the events that are necessary
for the Earth Spirit and her planet to return to their rightful frequency
and for the influence of Lucifer / Satan on human behaviour to be no more.
But think of the alternative: a fundamental imbalance in Creation that
would export the extremes and misunderstandings of this frequency to the
whole. The imbalances that have already occurred have trapped so many in
a downward spiral of karmic debt. They have fallen down the frequencies
as each Earth life has added more and more negative karma to the burdens
they already carry. This imprison-ment by karmic debt and imbalance is
coming to and end. The cell door is being flung open and the life-forms
of the planet can walk to freedom at last.

It is very important to focus our thoughts on who we really are. If we
continue to think of ourselves as only physical beings, then life is going
to be very hard indeed. We will see many scenes that will leave us shocked
and dazed by their magnitude. We must keep our eyes on the wider picture
if we are to come through this and move on. Within this physical shell
lies the light being that is the real us, the sum total of all we have
learned and experienced. Whatever happens, that being will return to the
levels of light when this latest physical experience is over. When that
moment arrives, as it will for everyone sooner or later, those we have
known that have passed on before will be there to greet us with a love
and understanding they could not express within the limitations of their
physical body.

We all chose to be here at this time, to experience this period of
unprecendented change and progress. We are all in this together, and together
we shall learn and love as events unfold. It is a moment to celebrate
freedom after 12.000 years and whether we remain in a physical body or
return home to the light levels, whether we move on or stand still, we will
be loved equally for all eternity. We will all feel moments of horror and
sorrow, and this is as it should be. We are not made of concrete. We
have emotions and we should not be afraid to show them and let them out.
But the truth is that there are no losers, for every experience, negative
or positive, is an opportunity to learn, find wisdom . and evolve to
ever more wondrous levels of life.

The Godhead and all of Creation are holding hands across the frequencies
to guide the Earth Spirit and all of us through this period of change
to the glorious new dawn and new world that awaits us on the other side.
I will end with the message they have all asked me to pass on to everyone
who wishes to hear it. It was channelled by automatic writing through
Mari, and was described as 'a channelling from all your friends on the
light levels. We speak with one voice.'
The information is wide-ranging, and the guidance and wisdom it presents
to us is without price:

"We have channelled a book that is about truth from start to finish yet many
will realise that there is no real end. We may leave some answers, some
new ideas, some philosophy towards life, but our journey is into eternity
and we always have hope and faith that it will forever be so. We have many
experiences that stay with us. Their impact is negative or positive,
but they make a useful contribution to our gathering wisdom and our
ability to love one another. We create karmic links across Creation, and
these give us som many ties to other life-forms that we find we have
created a web of experience between us all. This fact alone should give us
a sense of oneness, wholeness and brotherhood. We really are part of the
same family. There are no divisions, no aliens.

So, dear people of the Earth, where shall we go from this point? When Jesus
said 'Be prepared' he referred to this time we are facing, as one age gives
way to another. 'Eternal punishment' is really our cycle of continually
facing our karma. If you wish to remain de-linked from the higher self
and burden yourself with additional karma, you will find you have a great
deal to experience as you undergo the situations that you put others through.
But if you love yourself and your fellow beings, your karmic journey will be
easy, receiving eternal life does not mean eternal life in heaven, but
fresh experienes as you progress. Life refers to your existence and potential
to move up and onwards through the frequencies as you acquire increasing
love and wisdom.

When the Earth Spirit has finished her release of negativity, many will
have left the physical vibration. This is not because they are being
punished or that only the good can remain. It is more important that
those who leave the physical level understand that their behaviour up
until that point is what they will judge. If they leave with a loving
and open heart, in touch with their guidance, they will be able to return
to this planet later as it reaches a higher frequency. Otherwise they
will be unable to evolve, and will return to another planet on another low
frequency to start to repay their karmic debts. Neither does this give
any being a license to behave in a negative manner until the moment before
death and then ask for forgiveness. Forgiveness will always be forthcoming,
but it will not cancel out karmic links with others. The Godhead would not
wish to speak for others or deny any being that opportunity. So forgive
each other and love each other now.

Many prophets have come, some from times that you cannot understand, some
in the present day. There are many who have heard our messages, but few
have stood up to pass them on to you. This has been for many reasons. Even
those who carry our messages have doubts and questions. They, too, are
human and living on a troubled planet. Whether you call them prophets or
messengers, fortune-tellers or soothsayers does not matter. The emphasis
should lie with the message. Why do you now ask 'What is this all about?'
or 'Why would anyone tell us these things?' Instead the message has
become the object of condemnation and ridicule. Yet many have ears and
they do hear our messages.

We have stressed to you many times, dearest friends, that we are not punishing
you. It is not the Godhead visiting his/her anger and taking revenge on you.
We have said before that sin is not within the language of the Light. Anyone
who tells you that you are undergoing punishment for all the sins of the
Earth and her people is very misguided. You surely must realise by now that
this planet is the physical shell of a living breathing spirit. You have
experienced damage to your outer skin and have felt pain. The Spirit of the
Earth is no different. You think and feel emotoins, you struygle to find
solutions, you search for your ideals and goals, and the Spirit of the
Earth is the same in every respect. When you cry or laugh, ponder or race
with excitement you are expressing yourself, and we are entering a time
when the Earth needs to express her feelings.

Now, beloved friends the spirit of this planet is not seeking revenge,
she does not want to retaliate. It is obvious to all that she has great
love for everyone. She is acting to prevent Lucifer / Satan keeping you
surrounded by pain and misery. Hers is a position of mercy and love. She
wishes to see the suffering end and light return to a troubled race of
beings who have such potential. The Earth Spirit's energy system is in
ruins, her chakras are battered and worn out. How can she give you love
and the Light you need for you personal energy system if her own network
fails to give her love enough to share with you or even for herself?
We have always said that beings need to love themselves and be content with
all that they are before they can love others. We have helped the Earth
Spirit regain her dignity, courage and self-respect, and many of you have
sent her messages of love and energy that have helped to restore your
strength.

She will use this ability to to bring enormous physical changes to her
surface, and at the same time she will be able to release the poisons that
have polluted her spirit and emotions. The negativity will rise and the
light workers will descend to disperse the dark clouds, and the rays of
love will shine down on you all. Then we can start to rebuild an energy
system that will take us back to the levels of great love, wisdom and
understanding. And you will have in your midst a being who will guide you
in the ways of the Light, for you will witness the return of Jesus.

And who will be there to see this and learn from our ways? Is it only those
who go to church on a Sunday? Or the volunteer and missionary? Is it only
the rich and powerful who can afford to buy their place? Perhaps it is
those who search the clouds for angels and cherubim? Perhaps it is only
the poor and lonely, or those who are prepared to kneel and bow their heads?
Well, dear friends,it is anyone who wishes to find love within and grow
to give love to others. Those who receive love willl learn to give love.
This must start now. As the Earth opens up and releases her burdens many
will feel fear and pain, anger and sorrow. Land will move and shift and the
sea will come over the land, mountains will shower the ground with
melting rock and the sky will darken with smoke. And what will you do,
where will you go?

Open your hearts, make your mind quiet, ask for guidance, ask for love and
we shall be here for you. Those who ask will always receive. Neither shout
in anger nor cry out in grief, because then you will not hear our gentle
voice. We shall lead you to safety and teach you to love through the times
that seem to bring only pain and anguish.

We tell you again, the Earth Spirit needs light, she needs your love and our
love if she is to help you return to a world that generates Light. If our
Son of Light is to return he will come to a new world that will listen
and learn. He will not come to experience once again the pain and reality
of a world ruled by Lucifer / Satan. He has earned the right to return and
continue where he left off. This is only possible when the beings and the
spirit of the planet have been released from the pain and misery of the
negative attitdes that have suppressed the truth and love once known to
us all.

This time of change must happen, and you can change and help yourself and
all Creation. Surely as you lose your possessions, your homes, and leave
behind those who do not share your vision you will see that all you own
is yourself, your being. There will be no position, no place of hiding,
no wealth or treasure that will change what will be. When the world is
changing it will affect you all, so we suggest that you prepare the most
important possession that you have, that is yourself, your heart, mind
and being.

During this time of change the establishment will attempt to rule wiht
guns and money. But beware, for they are not for you. Let your heart tell
you what is right and share generously the fruits of your garden. Give
openly to those who are without, because your harvests will be poor and
the days will be shortened as the winter prolongs the wait for the spring.
Yet within an few years you will see a change as the old ways that have
brought conflict and hatred give way to a gentle and free society. So your
home, your car, your position of employment will fade, but you will not
grieve over their demise.

But what of those you love and cherish? Many will leave the physical and
we shall wait to receive them with love and tenderness. Their outer
physical shell will no longer exist but their spirit will be living in
the Light, surrounded by love. They will join with us as we watch over
you all, and still they will be with you to guide and protect, to teach
and lead you to your place of peace and harmony. So, most beloved friends,
do not cry for your own loss, do not grieve for those who rejoin us. There
is no death but the death of fear and suffering. Your love will heal your
aching heart, and as you quieten your being, listen. Those that you love
who are no longer by your side will speak to you.

Although you may not see them they will forever hold your hand, speak words
of love and patience, and give you guidance.

Many will leave because they fail to be guided and do not hear our words.
What of them? Will they burn forever in a land of sorrow and punishment?
Oh no, we do not know of any such place! It exists only in the hearts of
men who wish to rule by fear and power. Every being will return to us,
and we will help them face their disappointment and rebuild their
understanding. Neither will we stand over them and remind them of their
errors and misguided ways. This is not the way of the Light, and we will
show them again the truth. They will apply all they have learned to the
frequency on which they will take time to heal themselves and then begin
to plan their next experience. We shall always be here to guide and love,
just as we were when they took on this physical life.

You see, one of Lucifer / Satan's greatest triumphs has been to make many
physical beings on your planet afraid to die. Death should be seen as a cause
for celebration. Beings rarely achieve absolutely everything they come to
experience, but a return to the levels of light is a wonderful celebration
of one being reunited with one's whole being. We open our arms with love
and there is happiness and joy. There is so much to share, to reflect on,
and to learn from. It often means the ability to see, hear and think
with far more depth of vision and agility. One's sense of Creation's
reality and truth returns, and whole beings perceive and assess their
experiences and those of all Creation with more understanding and awareness.
So, dear friends, never grieve for those who leave the physical, it is
a return to a level of many wonders and constant love. They have come home
after a very difficult and weary journey which although brief, brought
many trials with its many achievments. Fear nothing and focus on your
immediate strengths.

Then, we wonder, how you will receive those who bring our message? Will you
hate them because they speak the truth? Will you raise your voice in anger
and blame them for what is befalling the Earth? Many will fel alone and
betrayed as the world accuses them of bringing the revenge of the Godhead
onto the beings of the Earth. There will be shouts of 'anti-Christ' and
'traitor', 'power-seeker' and 'devil-worshipper'. But look into your own
heart, for you are responsible, as are your brothers and sisters. During
your many lifetimes you have all brought negativity to a much-suffering
planet. It is past, and it is now time to face karma and accept who you
really are. You are Children of Light, you are Devas of Light, and if you
listen and act with us we will make this planet a wonderful palce to live
on and live for.

The world is your family and your home while you wish to remain here and
continue to work for the Light. When you return to the levels of light
you will find that all Creation is your family and that your true home is
in the beauty and warmth of the Light maintained by us all with our belief
in the truth. Whatever path you choose know that you are loved and cared
for, fear nothing and experience the freedom of the universes. There is
nothing you cannot do and nowhere you cannot reach, no goal that is
unobtainable or love that is undeserved. All is possible and available
for you to know and experience.

So, dearest Children of Light, dwell in peace and love in the harmony of
truth that we are bringing to this planet. Each of us has a place in this
wonderful Creation, each has much to give and learn. So open up to your
destiny and think on these words. There is a spirit within the Earth that
brings you a message of peace and love. She is acting, and advises you
to act also for your own evolution and reawakening. We have told you of
the events and times to come that will accompany this work of love. Many
tears will be shed, but many hearts will find the wisdom and love that they
lost so many years ago.

We ask you to support one another, to learn to accept one another. Ask for
nothing in return, have no conditions or terms of involvment, no recriminations
for those who seek to take more at this time of development. You will not
need your institutions, leaders or hierarchical system of a life without
responsiblity. Walk away from the old dying methods that have never brought
the satisfaction of wisdom and learning from the self. There is no man nor
woman, no single being on the Earth that has the answer and the whole truth,
the way of Light and peace. Each is re-learning, each is on a road to this
end. When the time comes for the one you await to return, then you will be
ready, then you will have the ability to act as he does, love as he loves
and always will. He will be returning to a new age of greater understanding.

The day dawns brightly and the night lifts its darkness. Look towards that
Light, which grows ever stronger. It is our gift to Creation and is within
you already. Light up your journey with your own love of life and its
deeper meaning will become clear to you. Seek only your truth and our
way of Light and we will join as one. If you do that each task will be
achievable and the frustrations of your previous life will fall away, because
you will be able to think clearly and see with such vision. As you reach
higher and higher goals, well within your potential, living will seem
effortless because you will be living within a new world. This world will
come about, many are working for it now and the sub-planes are rising.

After the huge release of negativity from the Earth Spirit, the frequencies
will start to rise. Will you rise with them, dear friends? If you wish to,
we will help you. We are here, your purpose on this planet is not to
suffer and struggle. The truth does not demand martyrs or sacrifice,
but re-learning and re-searching. Your memories will return as you seek
the life you knew before, and one truth will be known throughout Creation.

We are the Way, the Truth and the Light. There was light, there is light now
and there shall be light forever more. "

So the basic truth of Creation is now yours. I know it will challenge some
people's belief, and I can understand that. We are programmed throughout
our lives to limit our thinking and perceptions, because that is the best
way to control us and keep us in line. We are encouraged to let 'them',
the governments and institutions, do our thinking for us and tell us what
we should or should not believe. But it is time to take responsibility for
ourselves and stop passing it onto others. The choice is yours and yours
alone. You can act on this information, walk away or simply stand and
laugh. No one in light will think any less of you whatever you do, and
it is your judgement that counts.

But there are so many out there on this planet who are ready to accept and
live the truth, and this is the moment for them to stand up and speak out.
I can tell you from my experiences that there is no greater joy or
satisfaction than seeing a life transformed by the telling of the truth.
Pass on the message that will change the world. That message is: listen,
people of the Earth, and open your eyes to the glorious truth. Those who
see and hear will learn of the indescribable love that the Godhead has for
all of us, whoever we are and whatever we do.

Let us help one another in these times of stress and change, and always
remember that the truth is... love changes everything.

_______________________________________________________________
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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Sat May 25 23:01:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Thank You
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 12:01:41 +0100

Susan,

My turn to say thank you - I am deeply touched by your words.
I'm going to write a full reply to you, which I'll send to you personally -

But I would just like to say how deeply this has touched me.

And you're involved in our synchronicity, too..... :-)

Love

Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk

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From walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ Mon May 27 10:53:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Change of address
From: Walter Logeman <walterl@CHCH.PLANET.ORG.NZ>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 22:53:38 GMT

All,
Just a note to say I am changing my Internet provider.  New address is
wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz, however the old one will work, Iwill
change sig below soon!  I mention this in case there is some
complication in the transfer process -- if i disappear, I am not lost,
and will find my way back!   Note:  this should not affect anyone on
the list in any way.  The listserv provider remains L-soft in the US.


Walter

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Tue May 28 18:36:30 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: on pain and rage
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 02:36:30 -0400

<lots of good empathy to Laurel snipped.>

        To Wilbur--yes, I know rage--and didn't need to hear it from you to
>be cognizant of what boils beneath my surface (not even a direct comment from
>you ever, just the shouting of silence and the slap of an indirect,
>condescending aside).

Actually, the comment about nothing ever generated by rage was directed at
you, but I really didn't want to remember who, so that I could elevate this
to principled discussion.  The aside was directed at Marie, not you, but if
my comments brought a response from you, that's alright, I'll respond..  and
Marie seems to have already recognized my point with the aside..  But like I
said, I don't want to deal with another's rage..

>Yes I fear the rage and no I have not come fully to terms
>with my shadow that stalks me--But I have learned some things about rage that I
>think are valid.

I agree with many of the things that you think are valid.. but I disagree a
bit..  more later..  and I also fear my rage.. and I'm trying to shine a
light in my shadow.

>Rage is I find a reflection of pain and fear beneath the
>surface--it lives nourished on the carrion of other emotions. If i turn it
>inwardly on me, I pay the price of self-annihilation; if i turn it outwardly, I
>become a force of destruction of Other.

Yes, but I believe it is also a safty mechanism of pain and fear that should
be dealt with.. a sort of alarm that something was missed..

>I've seen and felt too much as the
>object of others rage--and seen the price exacted from many friends who have
>been the object of rage. Sometimes the form is small--petty sarcastic remarks
>which devalue another, verbal attacks which show disrespect for the integrity
>or individuality of another, thoughtless remarks which leave scars which are
>not so visible.

I think that generates rage, but is not a justified action as a result of
being enraged..

>Even these small forms leave as much damage on the soul of the
>sender as on the soul of the receiver--in killing a part of another, I kill a
>part of myself.

I agree..

>Much less than courage, I find rage to be linked with
>cowardice--a cowardice in making peace with one's self and in bringing peace
>with one to another.

I agree also..  But sometimes it is also the result of a lack of knowledge,
lack of understanding of what is being done to you, something that is
beyound your control...

>Yes, I suffer from this cowardice--and believe I have an
>obligation, a soulcharge to not make another suffer as a result of my
>shortcomings.

I applaud those sentiments..

>So I play my rage out in odd ways--a 120 piece set of china,
>inscribed with hurts and pains, shattered against the basement wall (might as
>well dive deeply into the unconscious while I'm at it!); letters of anger and
>retribution etched then burned.

Those sound like viable ways to act out the emotions..  But there must also
be some reality to the action.. some decision that has real result, writing
the feelings down, expressing them, and then making a change in my life as a
result of what I've experienced, perhaps I chide myself for being foolish,
but as the saying goes, "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.."

>It rises too often to the surface these days
>though--the ending of a relationship, a physical halt to almost 4 years of
>mental abuse, has made me testy--and I become aware sometimes too late: after
>the well of tears in my daughter's eyes when I fly off the handle, after the
> urge to launch myself across a conference table to seize our dept. chairman by
> the throat, after the blisters on my feet from walking far, too far, and fast
>to outpace the devil.

Been there.. I've also run to avoid a realization that I didn't want to
make, which was just behind the rage...

>It is not the passion that is the problem, but the
>attack--when I have suffered so at the hands of others' rage, how can I justify
>my accosting of another because I have not made peace with myself? how can
>anyone? how can you?

I can't.. but there comes a point where there is some level of
justification, some reasonable reaction to the rage.. and sometimes the rage
is all that you have, and in the instant you do something that you regret.
I experienced that yesterday, and I'm ashamed today.. so much so that I'm
not comfortable sharing it here right now, perhaps later..  at least I was
able to say that I'm sorry for what I did, and I'm working on making amends..

>Strong stands on principles and ideas do not require
>meanness, smallness, pettiness,

I agree..

>and attack--

I agree.. but sometimes it does.  There is a saying that I use from time to
time.  Sometimes the best way to get someone's attention is to punch them in
the nose.  Of course, that is often used metaphorically, I'm not an animal,
but the point still is that direct confrontation is sometimes the only
mechanism availabe, doesn't make friends, but sometimes you don't have the
time to do anything other than get directly to the point, and the situation
isn't always friendly.

>I do not believe they require rage.

Sometimes there isn't anything left to defend you except the rage.. that's a
lousy place to be, and I'd like to have more in me than that, but it was all
that was there yesterday.  I'm lucy that it was gone in 1 second, but that's
a second that I can't take back..  sucks to act out the bullshit from your
childhood.. even if only for a second.  And if the other person is really
asking for it.  Still sucks..

>I believe the alchemy which transforms rage is required and while I may not
>have the formula completely figured out, I believe strongly in the process of
>getting there.

That would be great, but reality is a little more limiting than that.. we
don't live in a perfect world.. and sometimes rage may be appropriate..

>Is rage natural?

It must be, or why would we all have it?

>I'm not sure. I don't see much evidence of it
>in other animals and suspect that if it is a byproduce of consciousness,

Interesting thought, fits with my reasoning on the subject..

>it is one of these byproducts set to us as a challenge to transcend.

Perhaps without words, there would be no rage..?  But we can't live without
works, and we can't transcend our own lives..

>It is the negative pole of individuation and needs be integrated into the
whole >lest it be the destruction of us all.

It's also our salvation, at least in the sense that when all else fails, we
still have our rage at being treated less than human.

>The Beast in "Beauty and the Beast" had not love
>in his heart and needed that in order to find the Beauty within--to become a
>whole and then to gift another from his wholeness.

>Perhaps you write this off
>as incredibly naive--a Pollyanna approach to the world--Perhaps, but I'll stand
>by it as the best hope we have to reach a unified peace.

I'm not sure that there will ever be a unified peace in the world, seems to
me that would be the ultimate tyranny anyway.  Ever hear the saying "rage
agains the machine?"

>In Martin Luther King's last speech ("I've Been to the Mountaintop") given
the >night before his assasination, he called on us each to be the Good
>Samaritan--to not be the thieves who robbed the Israelite in the night, to
not >be the priests and levites who passed by saying "what will happen to me
if I >help him," but to be the Samaritan who, in the face of being the
lowest of the >low in his community, still had the courage to reach out and
say "what will >happen to him if I don't help him."

I respect Dr. Martin Luther King and what he stood for, unfortunatly, that
doesn't mean that what he said was the entire truth.

What will happen to us if we help others without helping ourselves first?
Self responsibility would go a lot further than just being responsible for
our neighbors..  Religion creates a message of unity, of putting others
before ourselves, but living well is about respecting ourselves and those
around us, and being responsible for ourselves, first, and giving those
around us the freedome to be responsible for themselves, with help if the
ask for it.

I respect my own life and those of the people around me, and I would enhance
my life first, and also the lives of those around me, because in return I
get more out of my own life back from them.  Quite different from most
religious teachings as far as I know...  The idea is that I'm responsible
for myself first, my family next, and my community after that.  If I don't
take care of myself, then how can I share a decent life with others, am I to
be burden on those around me?

>What King advocated was a militant nonviolence, the guiding of
>legitimate passions in a path which was respectful and loving AND change
>making.

But he would have been nowhere without Malcom X.  And a million or so Black
people enraged enough to stand up and say that they weren't going to take it
any more.

>He did not condone violence, in word or in deed, because he knew as John
>Donne did that "every man's death diminishes me for I am involved in mankind

Too bad not everyone understands that..  There are some that are willing to
kill, and without a resort to force, backed by rage against injustice, there
would be no protection from the sort of people that don't respect our lives,
and don't understand that death of an individual diminishes us all..

>...and therefore do not send to know for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for
>thee."--and me when we allow our rage to take over, to let the shadow become
>the substance,

I don't say that rage should lead, but I also believe that it has to be
admitted as a real part of humanity and ourselves, how else are we to
conquer it?
Without rage against injustice, without rage against subversion of
principle, there would be no justice and no principle.

>and to worship at the altar of lead rather than gold.

I choose to worship at the alter of life.

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Tue May 28 18:53:03 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Timing..
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 02:53:03 -0400

Sorry that I need to do this, but I have some things that need tending in
the real world..  but I'm not going away, and I'll continue to read
everything, but I need some time to do other things.. the reason?

I discovered yesterday that my girlfriend of 5 years is pregnant!  Yea!
This is indeed a pleasant surprise..

Talking about timing or sychronicity, yesterday was also my 5 year
anniversary with my girlfriend, she had been ill for the past few days, but
failed a home pregnancy test, so I took her to the local clinic yesterday,
sitting in the waiting room, I heard the "Congratulations" in the back and
since Tamara was the only patient there, I figured that something was up.

So I have a few things that need to be taken care of in the next few days,
not to mention that I have been sorting out my inner rage and generally
stirring things up on Psyber-L for the past week, I also have some things to
work out with my daughter and her rage/jealously..

I also REALLY need to focus on my contract programming work and the
development of my demo for my new company.  After all, there will be another
face around here whether I put it on the computer or not!  Maybe a race is
in order?  But I need to put more effort into my business, since I'll have
additional responsibilities sometime in January..

I'm not abondoning Psyber-L, but any responses will be very short, and I'll
be skimming rather than digesting most of the messages for a while..

Talking about timing or sychronicity, I managed to somehow have two meetings
with therapists scheduled for tomorrow, one with for my issues with my ex,
and one with my girlfriend.. so I assume that between 12 and 3 PM tomorrow
I'll be dealing with a lot of issues..  if I can handle my emotions in the
next few day's.. I'll be just fine.  But I feel things pretty strongly.. so
I'm not particularly looking forward to gaining the perspective..

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz Fri May 31 00:30:44 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Timing..
From: Walter Logeman <wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 12:30:44 GMT

Wilbur,

> Talking about timing or sychronicity, I managed to somehow have two meetings
> with therapists scheduled for tomorrow, one with for my issues with my ex,
> and one with my girlfriend.. so I assume that between 12 and 3 PM tomorrow
> I'll be dealing with a lot of issues..  if I can handle my emotions in the
> next few day's.. I'll be just fine.  But I feel things pretty strongly.. so
> I'm not particularly looking forward to gaining the perspective..

Its been quiet here, a note to say i hope this all went well for you
Wilbur -- major stuff, the type that is not meant to be easy!

Timing . . .

One more quick word:  Time and how one divides it between the f2f
relationships and our online ones!  That is a psychological question,
that comes up ovr and over . . . and is trivialised in the media as
addiction.  . . .

But how one divides ones on line time between two lists!  that is an
issue for Psybernet . . . as we have this space and use it to do other
activities with a tighter focus.


One way is to make occasional short posts, such as this . . .
postcards!



>From walter in a dream world.

Oh, and btw:

I noticed that there  a few new people to the list.  Welcome.  Please
make yourself known to the list.  If you want to, have a look at the
logs from aroune march and april, there were a lot of introductions
then, of people who are still here . . .







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From isaacs@RMI.NET Fri May 31 02:49:00 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Introduction (was re: timing..)
From: Isaacs <isaacs@RMI.NET>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 09:49:00 -0500

Walter and et al.,
Ummmm. . . Perhaps your postscript was intended for my eyes today.  I have
been an inactive observer for many months, initially subscribing to the list
while emersed in the last semester of my social work clinical internship;
finding that I did NOT have the energy to engage  or make the smallest
connection in this type of cybermilieu.  I am slowly regaining what is
needed (whatever that is) to make that connection here and now.  I would
like to show up and be present in what ever capacity that I am able, while
making those necessary transitions from student to practitioner. I thank all
of you for showing me how to feel with my eyes as a result of the
transperency of the words you share with others on this list.   How wonder-
ful!

Enjoy the day,
  Robin Isaacs
  isaacs@rmi.net
  Pueblo, CO
 -------- REPLY, Original message follows --------

Date: Thursday, 30-May-96 12:30 PM you wrote:
Oh, and btw:
I noticed that there  a few new people to the list.  Welcome.  Please make
yourself known to the list.  If you want to, have a look at the logs from
aroune march and april, there were a lot of introductions then, of people
who are still here . . .







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz http://www2.chch.
planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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-------- REPLY, End of original message --------


--
best'
Robin Isaacs
isaacs@rmi.net
Pueblo, CO

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From wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ Tue Jun 04 13:21:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: The place of art in list leadership.
From: Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 01:21:36 GMT

Dear all on the Psybernet Mailing List,


This is a time of quiet here.  I suspect this is in part due to
activity, which is very absorbing on another project that some of us
are involved in.  We are in a PsyberGroup associated with this list
and the Psybernet project.  Thus the quiet is misleading.  Psybernet
is in a period of  expansion.  There has been some questioning about
the method used in Psybernet to learn about the psychology of listserv
via a purely experiential method.  As will be obvious to those
involved in the project the learning is profound, and will find its
way into this list over the next few months.

One thing I have learnt is that I am unable to be fully present in two
"psyberspaces" and maintain my rl work and relationships.  That is
serious as I state that I facilitate here.  I do not think I have
abandoned my role, nor do I think I have all the responsibility for
the life on this list, however I will be looking for a facilitator for
this list next time I intend to be involved in something major for a
while.  For now, i do both.

Let me suggest three topics that are inter-related and may be useful
for further airing here.

1.  The Dangers of Cyberspace, especially Psyberspace.

I am thinking especially of the lists and email aspects of cyberspace,
as that is what we are involved in here.  Are there dangers?  What are
the experiences of list members -- how has the medium hurt you or
threatened you? I believe that Clifford Stoll mentions the dangers in
his Snake Oil book -- has anyone read that? How can the dangers be
prevented.  What is the role of list . . . owner/moderator/fcilitator,
in making virtual safety.  I suggest that the "making" required is an
art form like sculpture, or painting.


2.  The relationship between ones life in Psyberspace, and off-line
relationships.

In wired recently they mentioned that this is not "information"
technology, but relationship technology ~ quite right!  R-tech.
(ugh!)  Are there guidelines for managing the two spheres?  How can it
be done?  A huge question and one that has been in the media etc.  and
certainly discussed before, however, given the methods here, of
sharing our *experience* we may be able to reach new levels of
insight.


3.  The Creation of Temenos.

Again, focussing on the ability of the listserv lists such as this of
the the PsyberGroup to be a container, a holding space, to have some
boundaries, to create safety.  All those things that are well summed
up in the word temenos, with its association with sacred space and
temples.  How does a list develop that?  Can our work here be
structured?  Even this post is a form of creating some structure and
focus, some temenos.  Can this be effective?  How far can we go in
this direction?  Can the list pace have a sense of sacredness or focus
akin to that found in rl spaces such as a chappel, or a consulting
room?  What is the art involved?


All of these questions are on my mind, and I will look forward to
participating, but not fully for some time.  In the meantime I will
read every word here, and rest assured, be busy with these questions
in other ways.

PS. . . .feel free to introduce, question, go off on tangents, raise
totally new topics and generally create a climate of trust which is
essential for these topics to be fully aired in an experiential way.
And if you are a reader here, a few words of encouragement to those
who write would be appreciated ~ no need to apologise for not being
totally committed, over-committed.


All the best,


Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Tue Jun 04 22:53:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace?
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 12:53:06 +0200

Walter,
sitting there and philosophise on leadership in Psyberspace deserves some
comments:
What is it that you achieved as a leader?
Even asking this question, I think, may indicate something missing.
You surely watched me contributing to another list on which the emphasis seems
to be on sensing one's own place in the causal chain of list events.
As you've read my new intro, it was the pre-eminent topic of group *silence*
I happened to experience in an aggravated form in PSYBER-L.
I ventured to make some proposals - you were the first to give approval; and the
tides of mail did overrun my proposal, referring ing some contorted form to it -
and that it was. Perhaps it was my fault not to hammer home *repeatedly* the de-
tails important to fulfilling my promise; I simply watched the waves of list
flood sweeping in - until I let go and switched lists - at the cost of missing
admission closing date for your playgroup, which, in turn, served to reinforce
my decision to switch.
In retrospect, Walter, I didn't experience you as a *facilitator* in the word's
original sense; I felt uneasy (misunderstood) at your interventions.
Hope I learn to stay away from lists whose leaders interfere with my contribs in
a way I can't grapple with. So I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when no
one expects it.
Bye, Walter.
   It could have been so beautiful -
   it has not come to be.

Mila

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Wed Jun 05 09:20:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace?
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 17:20:02 -0400

Walter,

I confess to being very confused by this.

Mila writes:

>What is it that you achieved as a leader?
>Even asking this question, I think, may indicate something missing.

Maybe it's just me but this seems a little hostile.  It seems to me you have
usually refered to yourself as a list facilitator <one who makes easy or
easier>...the meaning of which does not, IMO, imply a goal-oriented
"achievement"-driven role, but rather a "helping", "keeping it flowing" role.

Is this a suggestion that you have not succeeded in your role as facilitator
because there is no apparent "achievement"?

And I am completely at a loss to understand why questioning how the process
has evolved indicates that there may be "something missing."

I have not read all of the archives...so perhaps I am missing vital
information in the relationship between Mila, you and Pysber-L.  But this
post is very confusing.

>You surely watched me contributing to another list on which the emphasis
>seems to be on sensing one's own place in the causal chain of list events.
>As you've read my new intro, it was the pre-eminent topic of group *silence*
>I happened to experience in an aggravated form in PSYBER-L.
>I ventured to make some proposals - you were the first to give approval;
 and the tides of mail did overrun my proposal, referring ing some contorted
form to >it - >and that it was.
Perhaps it was my fault not to hammer home *repeatedly* the
>de-tails important to fulfilling my promise; I simply watched the waves of
list
>flood sweeping in - until I let go and switched lists - at the cost of
>missing admission closing date for your playgroup, which, in turn, served to
>reinforce my decision to switch.

Questions:
1.  Is Mila suggesting that you are somehow to blame for <her?> missing the
deadline to something...and is that because a great deal of mail was
generated to something she posted to Psyber-L, which she failed to follow
through on  <fulfilling my promise>  ?
2.  Decision to switch to what?


>In retrospect, Walter, I didn't experience you as a *facilitator* in the
>word's >original sense; I felt uneasy (misunderstood) at your interventions.

hmmmmm.....

>Hope I learn to stay away from lists whose leaders interfere with my
contribs
>in a way I can't grapple with. So I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit,
when
>no one expects it.

I fail again, to understand either how it is you have interfered or how it is
that your alleged interference could not be "grappled" with.

People come and go from lists.....the measure of their passing is
proportional to their contribution I suppose.  Maybe I'm reading to much into
 "  I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when
>no one expects it."  but it Sounds Like.....since we're not playing my way,
I'm not going to play.

>Bye, Walter.
>   It could have been so beautiful -
>   it has not come to be.

it is only what we, collectively, make it.

It hardly seems fair...right...appropriate...logical...to "blame" Walter for
this....vague dissatisfaction.

Please, I am very confused by this...Walter, can you explain?

Is'e

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From wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ Wed Jun 05 16:04:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace?
From: Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 04:04:09 GMT

Lisa ( Is'e), Mila,

> Please, I am very confused by this...Walter, can you explain?

Lisa,

I was slowly warming up to the same questions you have.  Perhaps Mila,
you may wish to clarify.


Mila,
I recall the proposal from you that you would summarise our
discussions on the differences between email communication  and f2f
discussion ~  that is how i understood the proposal, and I was all for
it. I still think it is a good idea!  Perhaps even this summary is
leading to you feeling misunderstood and thinking i am interfering.  I
hope not, but if so, how can i help?

However you have already made a good bye, I can respect that, and
expect no further communication if that is your wish & I wish you
well.


Walter









_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz Wed Jun 05 16:04:09 1996
To: Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace?
From: wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:04:09 GMT


Lisa ( Is'e), Mila,

> Please, I am very confused by this...Walter, can you explain?

Lisa,

I was slowly warming up to the same questions you have.  Perhaps Mila,
you may wish to clarify.  


Mila,
I recall the proposal from you that you would summarise our
discussions on the differences between email communication  and f2f
discussion ~  that is how i understood the proposal, and I was all for
it. I still think it is a good idea!  Perhaps even this summary is
leading to you feeling misunderstood and thinking i am interfering.  I
hope not, but if so, how can i help?

However you have already made a good bye, I can respect that, and
expect no further communication if that is your wish & I wish you
well.


Walter









_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Wed Jun 05 16:10:41 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace?
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 00:10:41 -0400

At 12:53 PM 6/4/96 +0200, you wrote:
>Walter,
>sitting there and philosophise on leadership in Psyberspace deserves some
>comments:

>What is it that you achieved as a leader?
>Even asking this question, I think, may indicate something missing.

Walter and I have traded email's about that as well.  Walter's got a
different style that I've accustomed to in the leadership terms, but I
suspect that it fits very well with the professional role that he has chosen
in life.  Leading group theraphy is quite different from leading a focused
discussion.  But this is Walter's list, and he has posted his definition of
the list, which we are free to follow or ignore, as we wish.  Walter has
shown quite a bit of leniency in the range of topics that he's willing to
allow discussion of here, which I have found both refreshing and
bewildering.  I've traded emails with many from the list expressing what a
soap opera some of this became, but there were also quite poignant moments
when people realized signifcant internal issues.  On the whole, the
discussion fits quite nicely into what Walter defined as the goals for the
list, (at least when we were not defending our petty egos..)

>You surely watched me contributing to another list on which the emphasis seems
>to be on sensing one's own place in the causal chain of list events.

I don't know what list that was..

>As you've read my new intro, it was the pre-eminent topic of group *silence*
>I happened to experience in an aggravated form in PSYBER-L.

I saw your posts, and I actually put your message into my "To Reply To"
mailbox, since there there some things in the post that I thought were
interested.. but along with about 50 other messages from many other people,
some even directly posted to me, I never responded to any of them.  I have
noticed and agreed with most of what you have posted in Psyber-L, but none
of the messages prompted me to reach for the "reply" button immediatly.

In the message that you posted in response to a "Language and Community"
message, you said:

>If getting zero responses, you can be sure they've given you *no* cues whatever
>in which directions they're expecting you to develop.
>Thank you for the opportunity to go one step further:
>Complete silence *entitles you* to write on *any* topic *you* choose - no mat-
>ter how gaga or exotic - as long it's *formally* embeddable into "psyberspace".

So why haven't you done it?  I get responses because I post messages that
touch issues that other's have.  I post a message on a specific topic,
(often in a sort of challenge, since that elicits responses, that's a trick
from an online old timer), and then wait to see how things sort out.  People
often respond immediatly to flames or messages designed to incite response.
It's a skill that I have developed to a fine art, and I can waste days with
the responses that can generate in a single hour of posting.

I hope that you understand that what I'm about to say (and what I've said)
is just intended as a simple investigation of what may be causing you to not
get responses to your messages ..

My first impression is that you don't speak English as a native, in that you
don't have a normal use of the language (make that English) complete with
the colorful metaphores.  The flow of what you post is not a normal english
flow.  I notice that your country domain is DE, where is that, Denmark?  Not
that it bothers me, my mother doesn't speak English as a native either,
(she's from Luxembourg), and I spent seven years of my childhood in Germany,
(Verstehen Sie Deutsch?).

The second thought is that you don't investigate a single idea with more
than 25 words.  While I appreciate the clarity of thought that goes into
your posts, there isn't much emotional meat in them for me, and the
shortness of the expression of the ideas doesn't give my psyche much in the
way of context.  After all, your messages flow by at about 1000 words per
minute, (my reading speed) so it's not like you're going to make much
contact in a 25 word statement.  (but I do remember that I liked what you
had to say, and was looking forward to fuller statements from you on the
topics at hand.)  I assume that you don't touch type, which would lead to
shorter statements and the direct manner that you post in.  I type about 100
words per minute, so my posts are in a stream of conciousness sort of
method, while it appears that you spend a lot of time thinking through and
editing your messages.  (I notice the hyphens, etc..)

It appears from your messages that you have a cool intellectual mind.  It
appears that you have a good grasp of the issues, and something valid to
say, but given the more stark contrast of several of the other posters,
there just isn't much to respond to.

The messages that you post have many ideas contained in a single message.  I
suggest that if you responded to a single idea or posted a topic on the
single thread, that the ideas would be easier to focus on.  Multiple ideas
get lost in email messages.  I don't know where I learned it from, I guess
in the English classes, my mother, or what, but I learned a long time ago
that the best way to get a point across is to select a single issue and then
only talk about that particular topic.

>I ventured to make some proposals - you were the first to give approval;
and the
>tides of mail did overrun my proposal, referring in some contorted form to it
>and that it was.

I have also noticed that when Walter has responded, that it sometimes has
broken the flow of the thinking that would have developed otherwise.  But in
this forum, cool intellectual debate is certainly not what has been the norm.

I have also started threads here that have died.  That happens all the time,
both on-line and in real life.  I have hundreds of things that interest me,
and topics that I'd like to explore, but we don't have the time to sort out
all of life's nuances..

>Perhaps it was my fault not to hammer home *repeatedly* the details
>important to fulfilling my promise; I simply watched the waves of list
>flood sweeping in - until I let go and switched lists - at the cost of missing
>admission closing date for your playgroup, which, in turn, served to reinforce
>my decision to switch.

>In retrospect, Walter, I didn't experience you as a *facilitator* in the word's
>original sense; I felt uneasy (misunderstood) at your interventions.

I also didn't get the sense that this list was a place where a facilitated
discussion was going to occur.  Robert and Walter attempted to facilitate a
discussion on the topic of the psychology of listserves, but the noise from
the "experimental learning" just got in the way.  As did the lack of
responses.

One discussion that I had likened Psyber-L to a "Hippy commune", and then it
turns out that Walter started a commune in the 60's.  In a commune you have
to pursue your own issues with vigor, and there isn't much space for
"reasoned" discussion.  It's also not a place that is structured enough for
reasoned debate to occur for very long.

>Hope I learn to stay away from lists whose leaders interfere with my
contribs in
>a way I can't grapple with. So I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when no
>one expects it.

If that is what makes you happy, go for it.  Psyber-L isn't exactly what it
appears, but I've stuck around so far, I invite you to do the same.  (The
leaving the list threat sure is popular, isn't it!  I did it, Laurel did it,
now Mila...)

>Bye, Walter.
>   It could have been so beautiful -
>   it has not come to be.

---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE Wed Jun 05 19:23:11 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace?
From: "Dr.Klemm" <klm@SUSSUN1.FFM.FGAN.DE>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 09:23:11 +0200

Is'e,
Let me cite some highlights of yours:
>>>
And I am completely at a loss to understand why questioning how the process
has evolved indicates that there may be "something missing."

I have not read all of the archives...so perhaps I am missing vital
information in the relationship between Mila, you and Pysber-L.  But this
post is very confusing.
<<<
>>>
Questions:
1.  Is Mila suggesting that you are somehow to blame for <her?> missing the
deadline to something...and is that because a great deal of mail was
generated to something she posted to Psyber-L, which she failed to follow
through on  <fulfilling my promise>  ?
2.  Decision to switch to what?
<<<

>>>
I fail again, to understand either how it is you have interfered or how it is
that your alleged interference could not be "grappled" with.
<<<

>>>
People come and go from lists.....the measure of their passing is
proportional to their contribution I suppose.  Maybe I'm reading to much into
 "  I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when
>no one expects it."  but it Sounds Like.....since we're not playing my way,
I'm not going to play.
<<<

>>>
>Bye, Walter.
>   It could have been so beautiful -
>   it has not come to be.

it is only what we, collectively, make it.

It hardly seems fair...right...appropriate...logical...to "blame" Walter for
this....vague dissatisfaction.

Please, I am very confused by this...Walter, can you explain?
<<<

In short:
If you're already **feeling** some "hostility" in my earlier msg, and being
aware that Walter seems to have decided *not* to respond, then who are you to
put him under cross-examination like a policeman?
Is "not having read the archives" a sufficient legitimation for doing so?
Where did I blame Walter for the obvious fact that I can't miss a cake and have
it at the same time? Missing it only *reinforced* me to get off - what alterna-
tive should I see, according to your standpoint ??
It's you whom I see as lacking empathy to Walter.
Sorry for you,
Mila

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Thu Jun 06 02:23:42 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace?
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 10:23:42 -0400

In a message dated 96-06-05 03:24:12 EDT, Dr.Klemm writes:

>Is'e,
>Let me cite some highlights of yours:
>>>>
>snip<


>In short:
>If you're already **feeling** some "hostility" in my earlier msg, and being
>aware that Walter seems to have decided *not* to respond, then who are you
to
>put him under cross-examination like a policeman?

I am nobody.

My abject apologies to Walter if he feels that I have put him under
cross-examination.  That was not my intent.  And I believe he did respond.

I would have directed those questions to you; however, I was left with the
impression you were leaving the list.

It is fascinating to me that people make these pronouncements about leaving a
list and then hang around to see what follows in that wake.  A bit dishonest
too, I think.  I should think if someone is going to leave a list and says
good-bye they should just go.   Is there some Netiquette that covers this?

 But to announce a departure  and then lurk around to see if anyone comments
on their departure is just sort of fishing for public acknowledgement that
they are wanted, I suspect.  Although I do not begin to know what motivates
people most of the time.  Why not just say that?  Why not just say?  Hey, I'd
appreciate a note or two from anyone letting me know that my commentary is
welcome, or my presence will be missed.  OR, I'm unsubscribing on such and
such a date and that gives me x amount of time to say good-byes and wrap up
any unfinished business.

 I've seen this on several lists. I don't know what your intent was, I
suspect you wanted to generate some response.    It is also possible that you
changed your mind after posting your 'good-bye'.  One can never be sure, even
in the relative immediacy of cyberspace...our feelings and lives change
dramatically sometimes from one post to the next.

>Is "not having read the archives" a sufficient legitimation for doing so?

No.  certainly not.  I admit to a certain laziness there...born of wanting to
know too much in too limited amount of time.  I was hoping somebody would
give me the highlights, sum up so to speak.  Guess if it's really important
enough to me I'll go research the archives.  or not.

>Where did I blame Walter for the obvious fact that I can't miss a cake and
>have it at the same time?   Missing it only *reinforced* me to get off -
what
>alternative should I see, according to your standpoint ??

Honestly, I know I'm missing something here and I'm still clueless....there
is a latent hostility in your note to Walter all twisted around a couple of
different issues and I just can't seem to pick the threads apart.  You can
continue to toss barbs at me, I certainly don't care, or you can try to
enlighten me, or not.

What is it exactly that you wanted from this list, from Walter, from the
other group you missed.  What other list did you go to?  You of course don't
have to answer this....these are just the questions that are floating around
in my head.

>It's you whom I see as lacking empathy to Walter.

Then again I apologize to Walter if my words conveyed a lack of empathy.  I
don't "feel" anything for Walter except a bit of respect for maintaining this
space, this forum, for exchange and dialogue.

>Sorry for you,

I'm sure I don't know why.

Is'e

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From judithb@sbc1.com Fri Jun 07 00:40:35 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace?
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:40:35 GMT

Is'e  if I may as an aside to your conversation...this issue of leave taking
fascinates me in relationship to expectations of exchange and fulfillment
<It is fascinating to me that people make these pronouncements about leaving
a
list and then hang around to see what follows in that wake.  A bit dishonest
too, I think.  I should think if someone is going to leave a list and says
good-bye they should just go.   Is there some Netiquette that covers this?>

Given my very different way of being in this physical reality, I have to work
to understand what is being contributed here by everyone and find myself in
waves of perplexity with very real issues people seem to be having. So I need
to voice my inability to resonate to the issues of late.

That said I have wondered about expectations of being here in this list or
any list. And could this list, because of its psychological intention, create
a space of humanness and the complexities around ones personal learning
agenda and maybe some blind spots which exchanges here particularly serve to
illuminate? My expectation is around learning and all exchanges offer me that
opportunity here because the framing here is so foreign to me ie: Jung and
psychology. I live in sacred geometry and science metaphores and papermaking
at the moment.

I have experienced moments of connection and learning here over the months
tho admittedly I sit quietly listening. I agree, Is'e, there is a real issue
around the tempoexperience of our lives outside the list and the list. The
list provides a focused place for self reflection and the contribution of
this. What my experience has been centers around the polyloguetimespace sense
and the creative tension with linearity or a perceptionmisperception of
linearity. I have felt the uncomfortableness of not responding to someone
because I was focused elsewhere. In a previous incarnation we had a norm to
say when we were away and when we were here to post "here listening". This
cleared up the unsettledness and I think a very real sense of manners or
netiquette. There seems to be some transfer of silence into being ignored
potential here which I have experienced when there is great energy around a
thread by a person who is wanting exchange where there may not be any. I
think of Walter and those who are in the dream group.
What I find quizical is how to hold wanting an immediate reply because this
medium gives the impression of immediacy which is some way feeds into instant
gratification-which I know is a loaded phrase-and a very real sense of
engagement.The immediacy is particularly important to me because I lose the
thread of thought. Being so non linear with trouble focusing holding who says
what it all gets mixed up in my mind and admittedly I weigh the time to sort
it all out with the possibiity I could add something. So my intention is to
listen and learn and when I can catch the thread wave which isn't often I
grab my cyberboard and paddle out to play.

Here listening,
Judith





--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Fri Jun 07 07:15:18 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: What to think of leadership in Psyberspace?
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:15:18 -0400

Judith writes:

>...this issue of leave taking
>fascinates me in relationship to expectations of exchange and fulfillment

in response to my comment:

I think this whole issue of connections and departures is one we could
explore with great depth.  Cyberspace is a fascinating study of humanity
trying to catch up to technology.  We have these incredibly powerful,
sophisticated tools that offer us almost instantaneous interchange of thought
and ideas and yet we are no closer to understanding each other than we were
before.  The technology that hurled us into this cyberworld did not give us
new ways of actually getting our messages across.  And all the upcoming
advances to this technology:  the cybervoice and cybervisual advancements
<some of which are already in place> will not guarantee our enlightenment.

Wherever we go there we are.  Whether we communicate in letters written on a
page in ink or by computer, by voice connection over telephone or cyberlink,
or in visual mode f2f or in cyberlink, we are still the same fragile
creatures who say one thing, mean another, and find it interpreted an
entirely different way.  That any understanding occurs at all fascintates me
endlessly.

Let me offer this idea that I have been playing with, not particularly
original.  When two <to keep it simple> people meet through this
medium...there are actual many "personalities" present in that meeting:

You  <---->  Me
the You I imagine you to be  <----> the Me you imagine me to be
the You I want you to be  <----> the Me you want me to be
the You you are pretending to be  <----> the Me I am pretending to be
the You that you reveal unwittingly  <---->  the Me that I reveal unwittingly

I suppose I could go on...the Me I am becoming?have been?.....but somewhere
in there is some slice of the truth of two people, and all the parts of the
fantasy make up the truth of that person <except I suppose those that are
patently false...and even that is a truth:  that there is a falseness>.

But I am digressing...back to the issue of arrivals and departures.

Judith writes:
>. In a previous incarnation we had a norm to
>say when we were away and when we were here to post "here listening". This
>cleared up the unsettledness and I think a very real sense of manners or
>netiquette.

I can see the value in that. and also the complications.  There may be people
who never post, are just on the list to read and learn.  Not everyone who
reads a newspaper writes a letter to the editor.  When a list is small and
the interaction varied among the players, their comings and goings would have
a different kind of importance than on a larger list, with many listeners and
fewer active posters.  I think we come to expect a certain kind of
involvement from specific players and their absence, in this case, "silence",
can be confusing.  It is always pleasurable, speaking entirely for myself, to
find little notes from listmembers describing the exigencies of their lives
and how that affects their ability to focus or interact on the list.  It is
nice because I begin to get a deeper sense of the "being" behind, between,
above, around the words and I feel a greater connection to that individual, a
deeper interest in their words.  On the other hand, many of us are deeply
private people and it is very painful to expose our private lives in
cyberspace.  And many of us simply can't imagine it mattering to anyone else.


>Given my very different way of being in this physical reality, I have to
work
>to understand what is being contributed here by everyone and find myself in
>waves of perplexity with very real issues people seem to be having. So I
need
>to voice my inability to resonate to the issues of late.

I think most conversations/interactions are rarely about what they appear to
be on the surface.  It is perplexing because to some the issues that are
beneath the words are more apparent that to others.  And sometimes a response
from one person to the thread of another is not necessarily propter hoc,
instead, it is tangential, and the connection may seem illusive to
others.....but the response was sparked by something in the thread, perhaps
something that swelled up out of memory...who knows what streams of
consciousness flow from without our being?


The rest I will let stew for a bit....duty calls!!!

Is'e

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From smu2@GLASGOW-CALEDONIAN.AC.UK Fri Jun 07 16:38:02 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: postcard
From: "S.Murray2" <smu2@GLASGOW-CALEDONIAN.AC.UK>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:38:02 BST

Hi Folks

Steve here having problems with his e-mail;

I've logged my other account on here too so I can
be sure of getting my Psybernet-fix,

if my other mail bounces you should be able to get
me at

smu2@gcal.ac.uk

[if this gets through either, that is...:-)]

Cheers & a good weekend to all

Steve Murray

Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk
smu2@gcal.ac.uk

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Fri Jun 07 18:14:12 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: -=-=-=-=  Psybernet Mailing List  -=-=-=-=
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:14:12 -0400

Walter,

At 07:52 AM 6/8/96 GMT, you wrote:
>A thought:  here is the list description, i think it is a long way
>removed from "do your own thing", from a hippy philosophy . . . while
>at the same time not rejecting those values either, embracing them,
>moving on . . .

If you don't let go of something, then how do you have space to move on?

>-=-=-=-=  Psybernet Mailing List  -=-=-=-=
>
>Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the effects
>of email groups and lists on group life and the psyche.

That's what I'd like to understand..

>The list is a
>starting point for depth psychological work on the net.

For who?

>
>Topics include:

Topics?  I thought that the topic was above?

>
>The art of leadership in communication networks.

Cool!

>Creating communication environments.

That's fits also..

>Gender issues.

Huh, how does that fit into the above?  I'm sure that men and women percieve
things a bit differently, but isn't this a bit off the topic?

>Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity,
psychotherapy, and the
>unconscious.

Open the floodgates, let everything in..

>Special focus on how these psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace.

I'm not sure that I understand, how the above fit into the "effects
of email groups and lists on group life and the psyche?"  Or given the
experimental learning model that has been put forth, we can engage in any
sort of behaviour, so long as we find some way to relate it back to the
effect that it has on us?  Seems like a can of paint splashing on the wall..
Interesting patterns, but is it art?

>Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience of
>the medium.  We voice that learning.  Forming relationships of a
>collegial nature around our psychological net interests is an
>important part of the work.

This is the justification for the experimental learning.. so we express what
we express, so long as we also express our insight into it's effect into
ourselves?  How about how expressing how that insight effects how we effect
ourselves?  Then how the effect of expressing our insight effects how that
insight effects how we effect ourselves?

>The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which includes
>psychological professional services on the net such as one-to-one
>Personal Exploration and professionally facilitated email groups. The
>list is also a place for professional collaboration in the development
>of ethical depth work of this nature. Announcements about Psybernet
>services will be made in this list.

Gee, I missed that part.. got stuck in an endless loop of introspection above..

>The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman.  Discussion of how the list
>is facilitated is integral to its purpose.

So Mila was right in the list of topics to discuss?

>Psyber-L is archived and
>these are available to members with an index psyber-l command to the
>listserv.
>

Someday I'll have to go back and read the archive..

<snip>

So it seems that so long as we express insight, and how this list effects
us, and using the "Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths,
personal identity, psychotherapy, and the
unconscious" as a kick off point, we can express anything that we wish.
Since I can easily say that anything that I might express fits into these
categories.. I see this as license to basically do what I want.  I'm always
insightful, (just the way that I am), so I can crank any topic around as
long as I express my insight..


In short, I get to "do my own thing".

Wilbur
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Fri Jun 07 18:14:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Petulant
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 02:14:15 -0400

Petulant?

What is Petulant?

I'm sick of this "Petulant" stuff.. I recognize the word, but I don't really
know what it means..

I'll have to look it up, what a *#$*# waste of time.

Imagine the nerve, telling me that I can't do "Petulant"..

Let's see, from "Webster's Collegiate Dictionary" ..

Petulant - adj. showing sudden irritation, esp. over some trifling
annoyance; peevish..

Oh.

Never mind..

Wilbur

---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz Fri Jun 07 18:47:05 1996
To: Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: I am listening  . . . [Was: What to think of leadership . . . ]
From: wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 06:47:05 GMT

Wilbur, and all,

> One discussion that I had likened Psyber-L to a "Hippy commune", and then it
> turns out that Walter started a commune in the 60's.  In a commune you have
> to pursue your own issues with vigor, and there isn't much space for
> "reasoned" discussion.  It's also not a place that is structured enough for
> reasoned debate to occur for very long.

Thanks Wilbur and others for the attention to the project here, and my
part in it.  All highly relevant personally and to the psybernet work.


You touch on things that are really personal to me and important, and
which i an working on but not ready to bring to this list, mainly as i
need to keep my attention elsewhere.  I will though, hopefully in a
useful way!

Here i am doing what has been suggested by Judith, an I am listening
post.



All the best,


walter





> >Hope I learn to stay away from lists whose leaders interfere with my
> contribs in
> >a way I can't grapple with. So I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when no
> >one expects it.
> 
> If that is what makes you happy, go for it.  Psyber-L isn't exactly what it
> appears, but I've stuck around so far, I invite you to do the same.  (The
> leaving the list threat sure is popular, isn't it!  I did it, Laurel did it,
> now Mila...)
> 
> >Bye, Walter.
> >   It could have been so beautiful -
> >   it has not come to be.
> 
> ---------------------------------------
> Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
> ---------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
> 
> 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ Fri Jun 07 18:47:05 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: I am listening  . . . [Was: What to think of leadership . . . ]
From: Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 06:47:05 GMT

Wilbur, and all,

> One discussion that I had likened Psyber-L to a "Hippy commune", and then it
> turns out that Walter started a commune in the 60's.  In a commune you have
> to pursue your own issues with vigor, and there isn't much space for
> "reasoned" discussion.  It's also not a place that is structured enough for
> reasoned debate to occur for very long.

Thanks Wilbur and others for the attention to the project here, and my
part in it.  All highly relevant personally and to the psybernet work.


You touch on things that are really personal to me and important, and
which i an working on but not ready to bring to this list, mainly as i
need to keep my attention elsewhere.  I will though, hopefully in a
useful way!

Here i am doing what has been suggested by Judith, an I am listening
post.



All the best,


walter





> >Hope I learn to stay away from lists whose leaders interfere with my
> contribs in
> >a way I can't grapple with. So I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit, when no
> >one expects it.
>
> If that is what makes you happy, go for it.  Psyber-L isn't exactly what it
> appears, but I've stuck around so far, I invite you to do the same.  (The
> leaving the list threat sure is popular, isn't it!  I did it, Laurel did it,
> now Mila...)
>
> >Bye, Walter.
> >   It could have been so beautiful -
> >   it has not come to be.
>
> ---------------------------------------
> Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
> ---------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM Fri Jun 07 19:34:16 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I am listening  . . . [Was: What to think of leadership . . .
              ]
From: Wilbur Streett <wstreett@MONMOUTH.COM>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 03:34:16 -0400

At 06:47 AM 6/7/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Wilbur, and all,
>
>> One discussion that I had likened Psyber-L to a "Hippy commune", and then it
>> turns out that Walter started a commune in the 60's.  In a commune you have
>> to pursue your own issues with vigor, and there isn't much space for
>> "reasoned" discussion.  It's also not a place that is structured enough for
>> reasoned debate to occur for very long.
>
>Thanks Wilbur and others for the attention to the project here, and my
>part in it.  All highly relevant personally and to the psybernet work.
>

I hope that you find the observation useful.  I'm not trying to be critical.

>
>You touch on things that are really personal to me and important, and
>which i an working on but not ready to bring to this list, mainly as i
>need to keep my attention elsewhere.  I will though, hopefully in a
>useful way!

We'll be waiting!  This could be very enlightening.

>
>Here i am doing what has been suggested by Judith, an I am listening
>post.
>
>
>
>All the best,
>
>
>walter
>
>
>
>
>
>> >Hope I learn to stay away from lists whose leaders interfere with my
>> contribs in
>> >a way I can't grapple with. So I'll lurk again into oblivion -and quit,
when no
>> >one expects it.
>>
>> If that is what makes you happy, go for it.  Psyber-L isn't exactly what it
>> appears, but I've stuck around so far, I invite you to do the same.  (The
>> leaving the list threat sure is popular, isn't it!  I did it, Laurel did it,
>> now Mila...)
>>
>> >Bye, Walter.
>> >   It could have been so beautiful -
>> >   it has not come to be.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------
>> Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
>> ---------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________________________
>> For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>> LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>>
>>
>
>_____________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
>http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
>LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L
>
>
>
---------------------------------------
Putting a human face on technology. ;-)
---------------------------------------

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Fri Jun 07 23:48:54 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I am listening  . . . [Was: What to think of leadership . . .
              ]
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:48:54 +0100

 If that is what makes you happy, go for it.  Psyber-L isn't exactly what it
>> appears, but I've stuck around so far, I invite you to do the same.  (The
>> leaving the list threat sure is popular, isn't it!  I did it, Laurel did it,
>> now Mila...)

I know, but I was having a collosal temper tantrum with the ex light of my
cyber life, who note when he said farewell did in fact actually do so.

Maybe it was a sort of "I am leaving home, unless you tell me that you love
me sort of tantrum in my case" and in his it was an "I'll show you that I
dont need you anymore, foot stomp"
I think you were just being petulant too Wilbur. Maybe we are all big kids
that occasionaly need somebody to say there there..


Dolores

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Sat Jun 08 01:52:37 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I am listening  . . .
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:52:37 +0100

>
> I know, but I was having a collosal temper tantrum with the ex light of my
> cyber life, who note when he said farewell did in fact actually do so.
>
> Maybe it was a sort of "I am leaving home, unless you tell me that you love
> me sort of tantrum in my case" and in his it was an "I'll show you that I
> dont need you anymore, foot stomp"

I almost left too... I had a rather big temper tantrum myself & felt
really hurt, angry and down for a few days. But then I read some of the
most touching, comforting and lovingly supportive messages I've seen-
particularly Susan Swan's - and I was deeply touched.


> I think you were just being petulant too Wilbur. Maybe we are all big kids
> that occasionaly need somebody to say there there..
>
We *are* all big kids inside IMO; I know I am, myself anyway. And somebody
saying there there is so very welcome and wonderful when it happens. What
was particularly good about the loving, supportive messages here after
the literary bloodbath a couple of weeks ago was that the people involved
in the flamewar, myself one of the culprits, were also the people involved
in the hugging & comforting.

I *like* being a big kid! But I prefer the hugging & the smiling, happy
childlike innocence of unconditional and untainted love , to the
tantrums.


Walter, your messages are always welcome in my inbox & I think you're
the best kind of leader -someone who genuinely cares about the
people and the project he's leading.

That's not intended as a criticism of Mila or anyone else, but I
just wanted to say that I do appreciate Walter's efforts here.

A big hug to everybody,

the big kid inside Steve Murray.
---

My love is like a storybook story
But it's as real as the feelings I feel - Mark Knopfler, 'The Princess Bride'.

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Sat Jun 08 03:37:22 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I am listening . . .
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 11:37:22 -0400

Dolores writes:

> but I was having a collosal temper tantrum

there is nothing quite as satisfying as temper tantrum in cyberspace.  I
mean, they are by their very nature <tantrums, I mean> rather meant for an
audience!  Where there is certainly some comfort in having a temper tantrum
in ones own company, it's usually the more to the point of Making A Scene!  A
a good scene deserves a good audience, don't you think?

>Maybe it was a sort of "I am leaving home, unless you tell me that you love
>me sort of tantrum in my case"

it's always a little dangerous to send that message ...one could get the
response...don't get yourself de-gaussed on the way out!  Then, I suppose,
that is really the message in most tantrums...a sort of love, me, hate me,
but don't ignore kind of message.....

 >and in his it was an "I'll show you that I dont need you anymore, foot
stomp"

meaning I need you a lot but I'm not going to let you know anymore?

>I think you were just being petulant too Wilbur. Maybe we are all big kids
>that occasionaly need somebody to say there there..

hmm....trying to imagine Wilbur petulant....I see perverse....I see
disdainful....I can't picture petulant....

Yes, we need love most when we deserve it the least, I am convinced.

and Steven writes:

> What was particularly good about the loving, supportive messages here after
>the literary bloodbath a couple of weeks ago was that the people involved
>in the flamewar, myself one of the culprits, were also the people involved
>in the hugging & comforting.

hmmmmmmm.......toe tapping....not gonna go there this time.......hmmphf.

However, I do think many times we confuse "intense disagreement" with "flame
wars"...  and have often watched the label "flame war" get attached to
something that is nothing more than a disagreement between individuals.
 Which is unfortunate, because in being  so anxious to cool down the
intensity we often misdirect the discussion and thereby distort the intent.
 So instead of the argument progressiing to its logical conclusion, which may
either be understanding and exchange of information, or simply a willingness
to agree to disagree....it becomes perverted.  I think this is especially
true when two women argue.  We, culturally, are intensely uncomfortable with
anything that approaches expression of rage by women, we are much more
willing to allow men to express their rage, we can accept and understand it.
 But women are not allowed the space to be full of rage or to speak intensely
and passionately without being accused of being inflamatory, or written off
as being overly hormonal.

To expect that life will always be hugs and kisses is to turn a blind eye to
ones own internal rage and to live out of balance.  It is only by accepting
that there is love and hate, good and evil within each of us that we can
begin to find the balance we need to live whole, joyous lives.

To be afraid of the truth of oneself is to live in fear of ones own
rage....and to be unable to acknowledge that that same rage may exist in
another.  What think you?


>I *like* being a big kid! But I prefer the hugging & the smiling, happy
>childlike innocence of unconditional and untainted love , to the
>tantrums.

Well, of course, who doesn't.  But methinks it would do you a world of good
to throw yourself on the floor and kick and scream and wail your arms
about....because sometimes a little tantrum is just a wonderful release of
pent up frustrations....and sometimes...it's just plain Fun.

Is'e

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From judithb@sbc1.com Sat Jun 08 06:21:38 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: I am listening . . .
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 18:21:38 GMT

here agreeing :-)

<But methinks it would do you a world of good
to throw yourself on the floor and kick and scream and wail your arms
about....because sometimes a little tantrum is just a wonderful release of
pent up frustrations....and sometimes...it's just plain Fun.

Is'e>

fun, yes, now there's a concept;-)
judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ Sat Jun 08 19:52:34 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: -=-=-=-=  Psybernet Mailing List  -=-=-=-=
From: Walter Logeman <wlogeman@CH.CYBERXPRESS.CO.NZ>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 07:52:34 GMT

A thought:  here is the list description, i think it is a long way
removed from "do your own thing", from a hippy philosophy . . . while
at the same time not rejecting those values either, embracing them,
moving on . . .


-=-=-=-=  Psybernet Mailing List  -=-=-=-=

Psybernet Mailing List aims to help us become conscious of the effects
of email groups and lists on group life and the psyche.  The list is a
starting point for depth psychological work on the net.

Topics include:

The art of leadership in communication networks.  Creating
communication environments.  Gender issues.  Imagination, metaphors,
archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the
unconscious.  Special focus on how these psychological phenomena
relate to cyberspace.

Through our discussion here we learn directly from our experience of
the medium.  We voice that learning.  Forming relationships of a
collegial nature around our psychological net interests is an
important part of the work.

The list is a part of the larger Psybernet project which includes
psychological professional services on the net such as one-to-one
Personal Exploration and professionally facilitated email groups. The
list is also a place for professional collaboration in the development
of ethical depth work of this nature. Announcements about Psybernet
services will be made in this list.

The list is facilitated by Walter Logeman.  Discussion of how the list
is facilitated is integral to its purpose.  Psyber-L is archived and
these are available to members with an index psyber-l command to the
listserv.

To subscribe to PSYBER-L, send the a command to:
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM in the BODY of e-mail:
SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L yourfirstname yourlastname

For example:  SUBSCRIBE PSYBER-L Jenny Smith

Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive confirmation
request, then an acknowledgment, followed by a welcome message.

To leave the Psybernet Mailing List, send a command to:
 LISTSERV@ HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM  In the body of the email
 write:   SIGNOFF  PSYBER-L

Last updated   2 June, 1996
Owner:  Walter Logeman  <wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz >




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman          wlogeman@ch.cyberxpress.co.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Sat Jun 08 22:22:45 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: tantrums, love , anger & Fun (long)
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:22:45 +0100

Lisa,

I enjoyed your article a lot - thank you; Sorry this is so long, but
I got the typing frenzy this morning :-)

I didnt intend posting here & have many other people to reply to, but my
hands wouldnt say no & this is what I've written this morning. I rarely
know what I'm going to write when I sit down these days :-), but this
one has come out from the heart. I've been wanting to say the following
for a couple of weeks I think - and I hope you'll enjoy my article.

>
> there is nothing quite as satisfying as temper tantrum in cyberspace.  I
> mean, they are by their very nature <tantrums, I mean> rather meant for an
> audience!  Where there is certainly some comfort in having a temper tantrum
> in ones own company, it's usually the more to the point of Making A Scene!  A
> a good scene deserves a good audience, don't you think?

Indeed; getting frustration out is done best when the people or things who
are the object of it are there to listen and react. I believe that the
people we find it hardest to forgive are the ones who we need to forgive
the most - and often having a tantrum with them is the only way we can
bring ourselves to speak to them.


>
> Yes, we need love most when we deserve it the least, I am convinced.

Indeed; but I believe it is not that we do not deserve it at times, but
rather that we cut ourselves off from it. If I dont forgive somebody for
something, the resentment doesnt hurt them IMO - it hurts me.
I think we probably have different interpretations of the word 'deserve';
I think people have a right to be loved, just because they exist; I think
it should be unconditional and as unjudgemental as a baby's or maternal
love; I think I would say I believe we need love most when we *feel* we
deserve it least - and I think from that angle, I agree with you;

As Louise Hay says, [she was raped as a child] "I'm not saying I'm going to
pretend it never happened or that it would be easy - just that I'm not going to
punish myself anymore for what they did. "

Susan's words about killing a little part of ourselves when we hurt another
touched me deeply, because they reminded me of this: that when I attack
people , demonise and dehumanise them it hurts me. I remember lashing out
at you & I feel doubly bad about that now - firstly because I can see
that what I said to you was unfair, and secondly because I think I really
wanted you to say 'there there' to me and tell me it was all OK. Unable
to say that, I lashed out - but what I really wanted was your approval &
that 'there there' Dolores mentioned.

Madam, I formally apologise for the things I said to you. I respect you,
and I would like us to start afresh here.

Louise also says that it's the people we need to forgive most that we find
it hardest to forgive: I think that's true, and I also think it's because
we want their approval, their trust and their love that we lash out at them
so viciously when we dont get it.

As Susan talked about, rage is not a brave thing; it is a cowardly thing to
lash out rather than go within and resolve the real cause of the anger.
Real courage IMO is going within and facing ourselves - and then having
the courage to admit that we do really want a 'there there' from the people
we attack, without knowing if we'll get it or get attacked back.

>
> and Steven writes:
x
>
> > What was particularly good about the loving, supportive messages here after
> >the literary bloodbath a couple of weeks ago was that the people involved
> >in the flamewar, myself one of the culprits, were also the people involved
> >in the hugging & comforting.
>
> hmmmmmmm.......toe tapping....not gonna go there this time.......hmmphf.

 Thank you for not criticising me on the above:-) ; I realised after re-reading
 it that I was perhaps rather presumptious in saying that - who am I to
 catgorise and label people. I think what I meant to say was that the above
 was my impression of what happened from my perspective - just as I despaired
 at the situation and thought nobody except Dolores liked, respected or
 understood what I had said , I read a series of the most lovely , supportive
 and charming messages I've seen anywhere: and realised that much of the
 anger and pain I was feeling was inside my own head and my own construction.
 So, the above paragraph should read 'What happened in my head', not
 'What happened'.

 Thanks for pointing that out Lisa, without criticising me: It's let me
 realise my mistake there and I've gained something from that;


>
> However, I do think many times we confuse "intense disagreement" with "flame
> wars"...  and have often watched the label "flame war" get attached to
> something that is nothing more than a disagreement between individuals.

OK, again you have a point there. What was in fact an intense disagreement
became a flamewar in my head  - mostly because I have been involved in some
utterly vicious flamewars in the past, over hypnosis & love curing cancer
& other diseases & a campaign being waged to cover it up. [All IMO.]

I dragged out all the 'flamewar' memories & behaviour patterns or 'games'
as Transactional Analysis would label them, and set to playing 'toast 'em'.
But with hindsight I agree, it wasnt a flamewar: and you didnt deserve
the things I said. When we have tantrums I think we do bring out our
script behaviours learned over the years of how to react in confrontational
situations; despite all the things I said about love and taking behaviours
only from the new files from now on, I yanked out the confrontational
approach & did all the old things which wounded me in the previous flamewars
I took part in.


>  Which is unfortunate, because in being  so anxious to cool down the
> intensity we often misdirect the discussion and thereby distort the intent.

Indeed; It would be great if we could be completely and brutally honest
with people without hurting them and without other people leaving the list;
[no jibe intended there at anyone. I am sorry if I contributed myself to
people's decisions to leave.]

Something I try to do with friends is to mutually agree to relax various
taboos. With my Christian friends whom I've been talking with every week
for the past 18 months, we have a standing policy that we will not worry
about hurting each others feelings by being brutally honest - since before,
for over a year, we shied away from telling each other what we really thought
of our respective beliefs for fear of one or other of us running screaming
from the shock of it. Now having been brutally honest with them and they
with me, our friendship is stronger for it: because although we have said
some ghastly things to each other in anger, in frustration, in fear and
in haste, we trust each other's sincerity if not each other's judgement.

I think I would like to say the same to you here Lisa, that I trust that
you believe what you're saying & I respect your opinion even if I dont
agree with it. If I hurt, annoy or inadvertently offend please believe that
although I can be careless, although I can be tactless, & although I
can be nasty if I have a tantrum, that inside me there is a little kid
that just wants someone to say 'there there', tell him everyone loves
him and give him a big hug.

Dolores did that for me, and it was probably the first time I've really
let my guard down in cyberspace: the first time I've really trusted somebody
not to hurt my little kid. I think the anger I vented here came from
thinking that that wonderful feeling I felt from Dolores's messages had
been demeaned or spoiled in some way by the disagreements - a kind of panic
at thinking something priceless was being lost.

I'm glad to say that it hasnt been lost, my guard is going to stay down now
and I do not need to react with hate and fear to protect my little kid
anymore. I have probably learned more in the past three weeks, particularly
from Dolores, than I have in the previous 18 months, coincidences included.

And I am also learning some things from you -and feeling able to let my
guard down with you, too.

>  So instead of the argument progressiing to its logical conclusion, which may
> either be understanding and exchange of information, or simply a willingness
> to agree to disagree....it becomes perverted.

Indeed; I myself feel that the 'scope' of the issues being discussed is often
overlooked in favour of points being scored when this happens; I saw so many
hugely important [to me] insights in Dolores's article and the e-mails
we exchanged, and the whole affair took on a huge significance for me. I
realised that I was ignoring that scope and indulging in unproductive
arguments as the disagreement heightened, but it is one of the hardest
script behaviours or games to break when we feel we must speak out to
defend ourselves. Which is sad, because going back to the things which have
a lot of scope is probably what we should have done IMO.



I think this is especially
> true when two women argue.  We, culturally, are intensely uncomfortable with
> anything that approaches expression of rage by women, we are much more
> willing to allow men to express their rage, we can accept and understand it.
>  But women are not allowed the space to be full of rage or to speak intensely
> and passionately without being accused of being inflamatory, or written off
> as being overly hormonal.

Cripes; synchronicity time. I'm not taking the mickey & you can take this
with a pinch of salt if you wish but I just read someone elses reply to
one of my Love articles which has caused a Eureka! with your paragraph.
I'll quote it:


---

Well Stephen Murray I enjoyed your discussion about Love. Here are a few
comments and ideas of my own...

Personally I prefer not to speak about love as either having a feminine or
masculine nature. To do so, I feel only further complicates the problems faced
by both men and women as "lovers".

I think you have focused on the question - Who is permitted to give love ? You
are certainly right that our society favours women in this regard. However, a
question of equal importance I feel you did not consider is - who is permitted
to recieve love? In this area I feel our society actually favours men!

In regards to the first question...

In your introduction you mentioned that our actions or emotions must be judged
within the particular contex in which they occur. I agree, but I would like to
add that some of our actions or emotions tend to be encouraged or discouraged
by the social environment we inhabit.

Now Love is a very powerful emotion, I'm sure you would agree, and giving love
DOES involve the temporary dissipation of the self. I think we are all afraid
to some extent of losing our identities, but I think in men it is very
pronounced and is expressed by our Macho attitudes. Women on the other hand are
free to give love because they are not as afraid to do so. Why is this? Well I
conjecture that women have a social support network that allows them to
temporarily "transfer" there identies to other women or men for "safe keeping",
while they provide lots of love. Men on the other hand have little or no social
support system that makes this possible or even acceptable!

In regards to the second question...

I think women have been socialized to be ashamed of recieving love. When a
person freely accepts love their sense of identity is fortified. I think when
this happens to women they experience alot of shame and guilt, because they
view their own sense of self as often residing in others, as mentioned above.
Perhaps this is why a woman wants her "Man to be strong" - he
becomes the temporary receptacle of her identity while she gives love.


---

(This article was in a reply to me on the New World Media server
[www.worldmedia.com ]

I have been thinking about this, i.e. have women been socialised not to
receive love and men been socialised not to give it - and I think it
fits in with what I said in my 'Boardroom Crisis' article. But on reading
Lisa's comments I once again spewed coffee, since I think she's provided the
other side of this:

I think as Lisa describes [& If I'm misquoting you, I'm sorry & please correct
it if I've taken the wrong impression] that men have also been socialised
to express rage, whereas women have been socialised to receive it: and
the men socialised not to receivee and put up with it whilst the women
have been conditioned to receieve and put up with it.

In Short:

                 Men     Women
Rage Express     OK --->  No
     Receive     No       OK

Love Express     No       OK
     Receive     OK <---  No


What happens when a man and a woman who conform to this [gross generalisation
I know, but please put up with it for the sake of my argument :-)] pattern
join, is that the partnership is able to deal with all the emotions
together: but each of the partners is not able to express and feel them all
on their own.

Whenever the transactions are operating in reverse, i.e. the woman is
feeling angry & frustrated & trying to express it, the ability to express
the emotions is doubly hard because as well as the partner trying to express
it having taboos, inexperience and socialisation to contend with, their
partner is similarly unable to adequately receieve, deal with and accept
the transaction. In practical terms, 'You just dont understand' is often
the result IMO. But it is partly that the expressing partner does not
know how to make them understand because they do not realise this process.

Is there an answer to this? I think so - I think all of us, men and women
both, need to feel all of the emotions and feel comfortable both receiving
and giving love, and also expressing and dealing with our own and other
people's anger. I've only just realised this so I shouldnt pontificate -
but I would like to ask you Lisa if you will please elaborate on this,
I found your words intriguing.


Also On this subject, I'm currently writing up a war-and-peace length article
titled 'Lindenfield on Anger', it being my experiences of going through Gael
Lindenfield's 'Anger Control Workout' tape and the benefits I've got from it.

Gael's opinion is that many of us were taught that it's not OK to express
anger: that we must repress our emotions and keep a 'stiff upper lip'.
She advises us to first of all realise that we have a right to feel
justified anger, but that we can also choose to release it in ways which
do not harm ourselves, and do not harm others.

She then takes us through all the ways [& she gives a breathtaking amount
of them] in which we tend to unassertively, agressively & deviously release
anger , following programmed and conditioned patterns of behaviour we have
learnt in childhood and through our adult lives.

Gael asserts that it's hard for people who want to be 'nice' all the time
to release anger because they often dont think they have the right to;
She gives various affirmations which help the listener overcome this
resistance, e.g.

I have a right to feel justified anger.

I can choose to express my anger in a way which does not harm myself.

I can choose to express my anger in ways which do not harm others.

[I myself plug affirmations like these into my self-hypnosis sessions.]

I'll save the rest of this stuff for that article, it's turned into a monster
but I hope you'll like it.

Let me respond to the last of your points:

> To expect that life will always be hugs and kisses is to turn a blind eye to
> ones own internal rage and to live out of balance.  It is only by accepting
> that there is love and hate, good and evil within each of us that we can
> begin to find the balance we need to live whole, joyous lives.

I agree. I think we need to express our rage, and to admit that we're not
all squeaky-clean all the time. As I said about talking to my Christian friends,
allowing the hurts, the dark thoughts & the fearful thoughts we have about
each other into the open lets us deal with them - and after doing that, we
find that after the turbulence in the bowl of our minds has settled that it
has done so at a higher level than before.

David Icke went through this; there was a time when he could not walk down
a street in Britain without people pointing and laughing at him because
he had been reported as claiming to be 'the Son of God'.

[He has remarked that it's a pity he's not the Messiah since it wouldnt
half save him ferry fares from the Isle of Wight :-)]a

He has also had to put up with outrageous allegations of racism and
antisemitism recently, which are so utterly unfounded to anyone who actually
listens to him or reads his books that it beggars belief.

[David wouldnt know how to be racist if he took a correspondence course.
He thinks we've all reincarnated into different bodies in different cultures
across the aeons, and is a kind, loving guy not some kind of Nazi.

He has repeatedly made it clear that he is not accusing the Jewish people
of a conspiracy, and has Jewish people funding his book which he had to
self-publish. The 'allegations' are ludicrous to anyone with half a brain.]

After even this, David is not reacting with hate at the people who have
laughed at him for years and are now trying to say he's dangerous
[with some mental gymnastics that should win the Olympics]. He has realised
that without understanding the hate, the fear, the guilt, the resentment
and the lies which we all have within us, we cant do anything about them.
If we pretend to ourselves that we are Mr or Ms Clean all the time,
we dont get the opportunity to face ourselves, go within and heal
ourselves. Similarly being 'nice' all the time doesnt get things done -
some people can find themselves floating around in a spiritual mist
never speaking out about or standing up for anything, because they dont
have the negative emotions to make them 'get up and get on with it'.

Steve Parkhill, the author of 'Answer Cancer' says:
'If you dont stand for something you will fall for anything'. I agree with
that; if we dont allow ourselves to speak up in anger when we need to,
we lose our grounding in the real world and can end up detached from
reality.

I read a book recently called 'Stress for Success', by Dr Peter Hanson;
Hanson's thesis is that there are two forms of stress: negative and positive.
The negative kind he postulates is that which makes us ill, depressed,
worried and unable to function; but he describes another kind of stress,
that we feel when the adrenalin is going and we are enjoying a good
argument or itching for a fight. Hanson's book discusses how to harness
the anger and the positive stress we feel and direct it to fruitful ends.

Cripes, I really didnt intend to write this much this morning; It's another
of my 'special days' when something is likely to happen, so I guess this
is todays... [but then the last time I said that 4 more bizarre coincidences
hit me straight after :-)]

>
> To be afraid of the truth of oneself is to live in fear of ones own
> rage....and to be unable to acknowledge that that same rage may exist in
> another.  What think you?

I think Lisa, that you have put me to shame. I have been afraid as
you describe; and not letting down my wall and asking for a hug and a
'there there' from you did indeed make me unable to acknowledge that
that same rage can and does exist in other people.
I am very glad to see thought that the same insight and depth of understanding
which I cherish in the people I have opened up to does exist in others-
including yourself.

It takes quite a lot to make me lost for words these days, but I think I
am now.

I'll end by replying to your last comments:

> Well, of course, who doesn't.  But methinks it would do you a world of good
> to throw yourself on the floor and kick and scream and wail your arms
> about....because sometimes a little tantrum is just a wonderful release of
> pent up frustrations....and sometimes...it's just plain Fun.
>
I will - I'm going to go home and do that, and enjoy it. I never thought
about whether that could be 'fun' before: I thought of it in terms of
releasing negative energy, love etc. But Fun is something I had overlooked
a little; Dolores talked about it, and playing - and I understood what
she meant at the intellectual level so far, but not experientially.

I think Fun is something else you women have a good grasp of, whilst we men
have often repressed it in ourselves IMO.

I've been smiling, and feeling happy & touched by your message- but not
playful as well: I just have never been the kind of guy who has played
around for fun with things.

I think I understand now: I'm going to go and have a good play with my
little kid, have some tantrums and hit some pillows. It's going to be Fun!

Warm regards

Steve Murray

smu2@gcal.ac.uk
Stephen.Murray@udcf.gla.ac.uk




> Is'e
>
> _______________________________________________________________
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>
>

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From davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK Sun Jun 09 00:47:06 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Mythconceptions
From: Laurel <davepc@EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:47:06 +0100

>communication environments.  Gender issues.  Imagination, metaphors,
>archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the
>unconscious.  Special focus on how these psychological phenomena
>relate to cyberspace.


MYTHS

Myths..I doubt you mean Theseus and the Minotaur, but it got me thinking and
I am going to play around with comparing a whole load of ancient Myths and
translating them into Cyber space. This you realise is for my own personal
enjoyment and because I am in that sort of mood. Midas springs to mind as a
good place to start... Then Orpheus and the Undernet. Narcissus...Pandoras
box..(I know all about that one) - the Gorgan could be potentially inflamatory..

Course you could mean Urban myths, in which case I can have fun trying to
root out the cyberspace equivelent of the maniac banging on the car roof or
the unfortunates who tied grannys corpse to the car roof and had the car
stolen, (roofs seem to feature prominantly in urban myth for some reason)

On the other hand you could mean Myths, as in Bill Gates is in fact the
antichrist or that Elvis has his own Web page,  or that there are actually
more than 8 people subscribed to this list.

Dolores

P.S Wilbur.. I think you could do petulant if you put your mind to it.

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Sun Jun 09 05:36:28 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Mythconceptions
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:36:28 -0400

Dolores write:
>
>On the other hand you could mean Myths  <snip>    that there are actually
>more than 8 people subscribed to this list.

You think?  I thought it was just four or five people with multiple
personalities I mean screen names.

>
>P.S Wilbur.. I think you could do petulant if you put your mind to it.

I think he needs lessons!

 <smiling sweetly>

Is'e

Oh yeah...the myth thing reminded me of Rover's tribute to the mermaid and of
a fun little a poem I wrote invoking the Imp of the Perverse..... thought I
might share it...


<<<<<>>>>>

Mersong

 When 'ere I rose from the dew
 stretching long scaled fin
 on sun dappled rocks
 and plucked seaweed pods like daisies:
 fain to imitate those fair legged beauties.
 choosing my lover on a whim:
 breathing in the scent of him on the current:
 his face forming in the mist.

 When I lay back spreading arms
 to sun on salt crusted rocks
 calling to one:  plucking from his reverie
 the image of his far-off fair love:
 and rise from the rocks like that memory.
 into my outstretched arms he comes willingly:
 and for a moment I regret how his beauty pales
 beneath the waves.

 Does she know?
 does she stand on some far shore
 on her lovely alabaster legs?
 does she breathe in
 the scent of his disgrace
 or hear my laughter on the wind
 that mangles her hair?

 The sea will wash his bones
 of her remembrance
 long after I have forgotten him:
 having claimed the others.
 searching for the one who holds the image
 I would know.

 But  their simple minds hold only this:
 how they remember her
 in their leaving taking:   eyes cast down
 as she turns away in anguish from the
 sorrowful sea.

 Oh how I would hold her heart
 in the seafoam of my soul!
 Oh how her lips would part
 for the tender waves I would send
 crashing o'er her joy!

 Thus for their ships that yet refuse
 her tiny feet:  a thousand hulls
 will crush upon these rocks:
 a thousand souls will scream the
 lullably I have recorded like an echo
 in the fog.

 For these are vain and foolish men
 who trumpet my desire.
 and I remember long the day
 I saw her cut the mist all proud
at the fore of that swift silent ship.

 Anger rose like bile that day
 and seas frothed in my rage.
 seeing her image on that hull
 I thought to lure her to my lair:
 to pull her off that hated prow:
 only to find her splinter there.

 These mortals with their awkward gait
 think to fathom me
 yet serve me only an effigy of her.
 shall I my sorrow then unleash
 on those thousand weary souls?
 then will my beloved cross this foam
 and plait her hair with mine?

 The  mist is rising 'ere I wake:
 I will call another here.
 the shadow of her beckons again:
 the wind will form her soundless name.
 into the silence I begin to sing
 a sea cradle song the sailors know and fear:
 the song is me.


(c) L.D.McCulley
all rights reserved
96.48.20

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From Yseultt@AOL.COM Sun Jun 09 05:36:31 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Spelling Bee
From: "Lisa D. McCulley" <Yseultt@AOL.COM>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 13:36:31 -0400

To Steve, and Walter, and the others who seem to have a problem with this:

It's   IS'E.

rhymes with dizz'y.

Is'e.

Eye Essss Apostrophe Eeeee.

Is'e.

<small curtsy>

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Sun Jun 09 09:06:54 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Mythconceptions
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:06:54 +0100

Dolores wrote:


>
> >communication environments.  Gender issues.  Imagination, metaphors,
> >archetypes, dreams, myths, personal identity, psychotherapy, and the
> >unconscious.  Special focus on how these psychological phenomena
> >relate to cyberspace.

I only recently read the list purpose description; [bit of an inditement,
huh, after lurking for 18 months :-)]

But I like it, and find I may actually be on topic with the things
I've said after all.

I have *reams* to say on the unconscious, archetypes and synchronicity
and on hypnosis / NLP / somnambulism / psychic things / magick.

My take on dreams is pretty outrageous [sound of no-one collapsing in
the background in disbelief at that] , but it's quite interesting;

Aside from the astral / waking / near death experience kind, I was
told by a psychic friend that using an astrological birth chart to
pinpoint why we are here in this life, we can ask for dreams on
particular aspects and be told what we have come here to do -
effectively talking to God.

I took this with a large pinch of salt until I had seven such dreams
on the first night; with hindsight a few months on, the conclusions
I was given from them seem to have measured up pretty well.

I am no expert on this - about the same level of competence as
a learner driver to my friend's Nigel Mansell - but it seems to work.
And now some of the other people involved in the synchronicity I spoke
of are having prophetic dreams, as well.

If folk here are interested I'll ask 'Nigel' to elaborate. :-)


I'll post more thoroughly on this when I have time.

having realised that most of my stuff is probably admissable and
relevant here after all, I wont mailbomb you all with it all at once;
but I think I will be a regular here from now on. You folks are becoming
rather important in my life ....! :-)
>
>
> I am going to play around with comparing a whole load of ancient Myths and
> translating them into Cyber space. This you realise is for my own personal
> enjoyment and because I am in that sort of mood.

Go for it! Looking forward to it.

>
> Course you could mean Urban myths, in which case I can have fun trying to
> root out the cyberspace equivelent of the maniac banging on the car roof or
> the unfortunates who tied grannys corpse to the car roof and had the car
> stolen, (roofs seem to feature prominantly in urban myth for some reason)
>

> On the other hand you could mean Myths, as in Bill Gates is in fact the
> antichrist or that Elvis has his own Web page,  or that there are actually
> more than 8 people subscribed to this list.

Actually, William Hill will apparently take a bet for 1 Million to 1
that Elvis Presley will not crash land a UFO on the head of the
Loch Ness Monster by the end of the decade. I've thought of going in
and putting a pound on out of badness just to worry the staff
[they know me ... :-)]

And Bill's not the antichrist, he just works for him... :-)

Yours amused & having a lot of Fun today,

Steve

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From judithb@sbc1.com Sun Jun 09 22:01:09 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Petulant
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 10:01:09 GMT

Wilbur you give great grin:-)
<
Petulant?

What is Petulant?

I'm sick of this "Petulant" stuff.. I recognize the word, but I don't really
know what it means..

I'll have to look it up, what a *#$*# waste of time.

Imagine the nerve, telling me that I can't do "Petulant"..

Let's see, from "Webster's Collegiate Dictionary" ..

Petulant - adj. showing sudden irritation, esp. over some trifling
annoyance; peevish..

Oh.

Never mind..

Wilbur>

Here chuckling...savoring the moment of *putting a human face on technology*
judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From judithb@sbc1.com Sun Jun 09 22:04:15 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Spelling Bee
From: Judith Buerkel <judithb@sbc1.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 10:04:15 GMT

I'Cee, Is'e
tks
judith
--
Judith Buerkel    | Business Connects:
                  | THE online service for entreprenuers.
judithb@sbc1.com  | 1220 West 6th. St., Suite 400  Cleveland, OH 44113
                  | Data: 216/615-8099 Voice: 615-8088 Fax: 615-8050

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From grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK Tue Jun 11 05:15:36 1996
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Re: Spelling Bee
From: /etc/aliases <grkinfo2@UDCF.GLA.AC.UK>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 18:15:36 +0100

IC 2, Is'e. :-)


I think it's important to respect people's wishes and choices over how
they want to be addressed; I myself hated getting called 'Steph' or
'Stephen' all the time at school, and getting my family to call me 'Steve'
is impossible.

That's one of the liberating things about psyberspace I guess, in that we
can choose our cybername & ask people to use it with a reasonable chance
of them doing so unlike with our family & classmates;

So, Is'e it is from now on.

And please folks, It's 'Steve', not Stephen or Steven. I *hate* that. :-)
The university wont let me have Steve as my mail address [fascists :-)],
but I really prefer 'Steve'.

It's something I've felt like asking people a few times on the net, but
I've never done it for fear of being misinterpreted- but I think being
addressed by our friends and acquaintances and colleagues the way we
want to be addressed, and knowing that they respect our wishes, is quite
an important thing for quite a lot of people.

So thanks Is'e, for initiating this - and letting me feel able to ask this
after 4 years on the net of putting up with 'Stephen' and grumbling quietly
over it. :-)

Thoughts, people?

Cheers

Steve

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From: successu84u@aol.com
Subject: More Income?
To: dave123456@mailexcite.com
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Independence, call this number to begin the Journey:

               24 Hour Toll Free  **800-995-0779**  

No Special Background Required...Just A Strong Desire For Success! 


"Whatever The Mind Can Conceive And Believe, It Can Achieve."
Napoleon Hill


To be removed email at: successprofit8@yahoo.com  


