From /walter@ Wed Apr 12 10:58:11 1995
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: The experience of Psybernet
From: Self </walter>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 10:58:11


Dear Barry,

> RemoteAccess!  Workshops for learning Email skills and
> other basic computer knowledge (like MEMORY, and BBS
> software) would be invaluable.


As you write about these struggles with the software I am
ddiscovering that Im moving into another world of the stuff, with my
inroads into the Intetnet, I am now in Pegasus mail for Windows,
Netscape, TCPman etc.  It is full of the same hassles I have always
had, but it is a move worth making.

The Intetnet environment I am now is essential for Psybernet, but it
has not replaced the BBS. Will it or should it?

I envisage having the Psybernet Library available by FTP, having
archives of the mailing lists available.  I see the www being a
front door to Psybernet , much in the way that the BBS is.

What does a BBS offer that is not here?  Does the fact that there is
a BBS create a sense of home base and community?  Like the WELL or
Mindvox, places where people identify with an ethos.  I think it is
just as easy for that to happen on the Net.  Future Culture and
Cybermind have gelled to some extent into a community, and that has
happened, seemingly quite naturally.  

One thing I like about the BBS, is that it is low tech, and a sort
of `people's' barefoot internet.  it will be there if all else
fails.  The difficulty with it is that it is another system to
maintain for little gain.  

I certainly think that it is such that you would be better to move
to a SLIP connection, Barry, rather than invest more energy in the
RA setup.  I have just loved it.  Despite the Digital carnival
aspect of it, like seeing the Rolling Stones pages, and downloading
30 secons of their music (what a waste of tme and money at this
stage CD is better) I have loved using the dictionaries.  That is
fantastic.  You can enter into a word and all the words in the
definition are hypertexed, so that you can trace their origins and
nuances.  That is what I wanted CD Rom for, that and for access to
literature, but it is all there in the net.

Listening to your experience and Ron's, I wonder how that is related
to our being in a country town, and he in NY?  And I mean both
literally and metaphorically?  Moving into the net is like suddenly
arriving in a big city.  I am reeling.  The evolution of the psyche
in cyberspace includes the urban and the rural aspects of it.  

Ah well, just some thoughts.  Back to work.


Warm wishes,

Walter.




From /walter@ Wed Apr 12 14:52:40 1995
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: The Experience of Psybernet
From: Self </walter>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 14:52:40


Dear Barry

> RemoteAccess!  Workshops for learning Email skills and
> other basic computer knowledge (like MEMORY, and BBS
> software) would be invaluable.


As you write about these struggles with the software I am
discovering that I'm moving into another world of the stuff,
with my inroads into the Internet, I am now in Pegasus mail for
Windows, Netscape, TCPman etc.  It is full of the same hassles I
have always had, but it is a move worth making.

The Internet environment is essential for Psybernet, but it has
not replaced the BBS. Will it or should it?

I envisage having the Psybernet Library available by FTP, having
archives of the mailing lists available. All without the
involvement of the BBS.  I see the WWW being a front door to
Psybernet , much in the way that the BBS is.

What does a BBS offer that is not here?  Does the fact that
there is a BBS create a sense of home base and community?  Like
the WELL or Mindvox, places where people identify with an ethos.
I think it is just as easy for that to happen on the Net. Future
Culture and Cybermind have gelled to some extent into a
community, and that has happened, seemingly quite naturally.  

One thing I like about the BBS, is that it is low tech, and a
`people's' barefoot Internet.  Fidonet will be there if all
else fails.  The difficulty with it is that it is another system
to maintain for little gain.  I can't imagine how it can ever
remain viable as all these things are managed ever more
efficiently by systems more directly linked to the net.  I see
it as a natural step for Psybernet to move out of being a
provider of access, and that, on a small scale, is what the BBS
is.  This is also a move from DOS to Windows, a bit like going
from my Combi to the Subaru.  I could at a pinch do some work
on the old VW engine, but the Subaru is diagnosed by a special
computer thingy.  There is a passing of simpler technology. Ivan
Iillich had wonderful visions, but he was not right about the
future, if he ever tried to predict it.  I am thinking of his
idea that valve radios had an advantage over transistors because
they could be maintained more easily.  They stop making the
parts.  That is what has happened to DOS and with Win95 that
move is probably irreversible.

I expect you will want a SLIP connection, Barry, rather than
invest more energy in the RA setup.  I have just loved it.
Despite the Digital carnival aspect of it, like seeing the
Rolling Stones pages, and downloading 30 seconds of their music
(what a waste of time and money at this stage CD is better) I
have loved using the dictionaries.  That is fantastic.  You can
enter into a word and all the words in the definition are
hypertexed, so that you can trace their origins and nuances.
That is what I wanted CD ROM for, that and for access to
literature, but it is all there in the net.  I value being able
to search the TIME articles on any topic.

I heard that WORD will be HTML compatible.  That might sound
like jargon, but I saw instantly how this machine will be
moving to being a terminal into the net.  I am beginning to
manage my files in Netscape, they are already linked there and
it is a better interface than windows to my machine, and I
could just send you a HTML version of my hard disk! What it
means is that I can then open up something in my word processor
and click on a hypertext word and read the footnotes or see a
picture.  In fact, You might not hand in your essay to the
lecturer, just send them the address.  I talk as if it is
future, but it is now.  I'm just not used to it.  Maintaining a
Psybernet library, is to maintain a list of addresses. 
Listening to your experience and Ron's, I wonder how that is
related to our being in a country town, and he in NY?  And I
mean both literally and metaphorically?  Moving into the net is
like suddenly arriving in a big city.  I am reeling.  The
evolution of the psyche in cyberspace includes the urban and
the rural aspects of it, and the trend to urbanisation.

If this message is a bit of a ramble it is because I am in
shock.  Or perhaps just moving into denial -- thinking of
Kubler-Ross' stages of grief.

Warm wishes,

Walter.




From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Tue Apr 18 21:43:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Digital Carnival
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 21:43:00

-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: PSYBER-NETMAIL) by Walter Logeman using timEd.
Originally from CTpost@aol.com (3:770/270.10) to Walter Logeman.
Original dated: Apr 17 '95, 13:14

>From equinox!CTpost@aol.com Mon, 17 Apr 1995 13:14:49 remote from link
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Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 20:40:54 -0400
Message-Id: <950416204053_85317757@aol.com>
From: CTpost@aol.com
To: walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Digital Carnival

[Walter - please post the following to the list]

Walter writes:

>>>>Who am I?  I have seen the phrase:  'you are your links!'  An
interesting thought.  I am defined by my relationships, in other words.
 [snip]   One response is emerging, that in this medium I am reasonably OK
about letting myself be seen at a deep level.  Perhaps my page will reveal
quite a lot of things I feel vulnerable about, but might share anyway.<<<<

A response emerging for me now is that self-disclosure in this medium is
getting to be less and less a process of communication and more about just
finding words for what I'm discovering, while others act as a witness to it.
I end up knowing myself better, even if others don't.

A hypertext-like representation of ourselves, such as you describe, makes a
kind of sense: as individuals we are each a web-like network of countless
thoughts, feelings, moods, memories, ideas. Touch us anywhere and the whole
system comes into play, but in different ways depending on the point of
contact. It would be a remarkable exercise to create a Web representation of
oneself that responds with depth and vulnerability at every point of contact.


I don't have Web-browsing software and probably won't for a while. I hope
you'll post to the list what you learn of this process.

Thx,
Ron

___ MailGate 0.21

--- xMail 1.00
 * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Tue Apr 18 22:07:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Digital Carnival
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 22:07:00

Walter Logeman wrote in a message to All:

Hi Ron,

> A response emerging for me now is that self-disclosure in
> this medium is getting to be less and less a process of
> communication and more about just finding words for what I'm
> discovering, while others act as a witness to it. I end up
> knowing myself better, even if others don't.

I spoke with Kate this morning about this.  She said:  Yes but others learn
about themselves too by the things they see in what others disclose.

I liked that idea.  Anothers good home page teaches me about myself. I guess
I browse insearch of like minded people, but it is perhaps in search of me! 
Certainly this project is self
absorbing.  Both the Psybernet page and the link to the Walter Logeman page
are hard work, but fun.

> It would be a remarkable exercise to
> create a Web representation of oneself that responds with
> depth and vulnerability at every point of contact.

Yes.  How to do that and not be just self indulgent or
narcissistic, or to make the whole thing like a home movie!  Why do I do
this?  Why does anyone.  I have been looking at pages and finding some really
good ones, especially the Future Culture ones.

Some of the depth does come from the community aspect, where I declare my
connections to others.  Also I can declare what I like to read and listen and
watch and have direct links to that.  That is not just 'information' but very
effective filtering of it.  I have found things I like by looking at the links
from people I like.

For all that, my interests in Archetypal psychology and
psychodrama are difficult to find.  For my links to be 'me' there is a lot to
search out and add.

Warm wishes,


Walter
--- xMail 1.00
 * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From ctpost@aol.com Thu Apr 20 03:52:33 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Digital Carnival
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 11:52:33 -0400


>>Yes but others learn about themselves too by the things they see in what
others disclose.

I have experienced this.  Part of a post I recently made to this list was
picked up for the 2020world column at the Seattle Times and was discussed in
that mailing list. Most of the responses seemed to be just that: people
seeing something of themselves and reflecting it back, maybe learning
something about themselves in the process. And in what others disclosed about
themselves, I saw often in very sharp contrast, how my own perception and
understanding were very different from theirs. Not so much that I was in
disagreement, but that I seem to have my attention focused on something
different.
 
>>Anothers good home page teaches me about myself. I guess I browse insearch
of like minded people, but it is perhaps in search of me! 

I think the hypertext format for self-presentation may be well suited to this
medium because each element of it comes with a context. With the linearity of
prose email, too much of a burden falls on that single string of words to
represent who you are.  

I'm noticing too that the creation of a home page is a conscious effort to
create a public persona. In some respects, it is like an advertisement for
oneself.  If you are self-employed, represent an employer, or are looking for
employment or running for office, this can make it even more of an exercise
in marketing.  Walter, you may already have some insight into this. 

>>Some of the depth does come from the community aspect, where I declare my
connections to others.

I had not realized this aspect of home pages until just recently. And
'declaring connections' is a good phrase for it. It replicates in cyberspace
some elements of our social connections in real-life communities. It allows
us to identify with some and not with others -- providing further context for
ourselves and what we say. It also opens up an opportunity for creation of
in-groups for some and margenalizing for others.

For the web-impaired, this is going to be an additional handicap.  Unless you
prefer to be anonymous.  I haven't decided yet.

As for finding 'like-minded people,' I was thinking about this when I read
Negroponte's description of his proposed Interface Agent (kind of a digital
butler), continually searching on the Net for products, services and
information that seem worth your consideration. You could ask such an agent
to find like minded people just as easily.

Ron
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From stuart_currie@link.equinox.gen.nz Sun Apr 23 22:54:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Re Experience of Psybernet
From: Stuart Currie <stuart_currie@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:54:00

Dear Ron
 
 I have been a sleeper, an enthusiastic participant, a frustrated and
 angry struggler fighting the technology; Walter has given me a lot of
 support to enable me to try again, and again to return to face what for
 me is difficult and painful. The rewards have been experiences that have
 had me rejoicing, crying, being frightened, angry, irritated, outraged
 and sad. I play on the edge of  new ideas for a while, get beaten by the
 technology, return in a desultory half hearted way to experience Tantalos
 and  Sysyphys........and then I read what you write and immediately I am
 enlivened, and have to answer immediately,- I get inspired.
 (Doubly it seems, as this is the second time, I lost the first message,
 so infuriating.
 
  >> Cyberspace is bloodless; I have yet to find evidence that
  >> there's a heart beating at the centre of it or a guiding
  >> Intelligence operating in its universe.
 
 I DON'T want to believe this and
 your very words go some way toward convincing me that it is untrue.
 
  In cyberspace, there is no equivalent of 'wonderful green bush' and
 'cold clear rivers' to camp beside. Human life as it expresses itself in
 this medium seems too often
  >> trivialized by it. We know from experience how the broadcast
  >> media (and newspapers before them) reduce events and people into
  >> content.
 
 
 Must this necessarily be the case?  Right now the purpose of my writing
 is to react to what you say, to take issue with some things, to let you
 know that there is a power in your expression of yourself  that
 encourages me to believe that " Quality" ( Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
 Maintennance) is expressable through this medium. Your message felt more
 than just content, what does this message feel like?
 
 
 As the net provides us with a medium that is so much
  >> more interactive, we ourselves become the content,
 
 
 Yes that is true, the question is how we do it. Did you feel you were
 packaging yourself as you wrote this? What is it like when you get this
 response? What do we hide when we write?
 
  >>I don't think we survive this process very well -- the process of
  >> packaging ourselves for consumption by others.
 
 Owch. That is not how I feel  as I sit here and write this.
 
  >> As consumers of the broadcast media, we have been trivialized
  >> into lowest common denominators, but what I was not prepared for
  >> is how the incredible interactivity of this new medium would
  >> trivialize us even further. To me this is paradoxical. Although
  >> I am now able to 'receive' and 'send' in the same medium, I feel
  >> even more insubstantial as a presence there.
 
  >> I realize that my voice is drowned out in a vast, increasing
  >> cacophony of voices. While I may catch your attention for a
  >> moment, it is likely to be only for a moment. I think it's
  >> because I don't register on enough of your sensory input
  >> channels to become fully present for you; or what I say simply
  >> can't compete with everything else in this digital carnival to
  >> hold your interest for very long.
 
 
 Is length of time the criterion for  success in catching attention. Magic
 happens in a split second.
 
 
  >> For the time being, my written words are all I have to connect
  >> with you.
 
 
 True, I don't know your taste in interior decorating, whether you have
 kids or like cats, what aftershave you are wearing or what your voice
 sounds like, but already I have some sense of what might make you weep.
 
 In time, technology will permit me to incorporate
  >> moving images and sound and turn myself into something like an
  >> interactive music video (the Web home page is the first
  >> manifestation of this). But I suspect that the end effect will
  >> be the same -- to increase the distance between us and create a
  >> further sense of isolation.
 
  >> There's another way the net diminishes us -- the noise to signal
  >> ratio. On the net, I feel sometimes like a rag-picker in a vast
  >> city dump, sorting through trash for something that might have
  >> potential value. I can be aware that all this stuff has had
  >> value bestowed upon it by being associated with the lives of
  >> individual people. And that what's under my feet is evidence of
  >> millions of stories that will, sadly, never be known by anyone
  >> except the people who lived them. With such an effort, ordinary
  >> human lives can be redeemed, but it would take the omniscience
  >> and patience of a Much Higher Power to redeem the value in an
  >> entire city dump -- to hear the signal contained in each bit of
  >> trash.
 
 
 Ron I am moved by a  sense of the compassion in this image, for me a
 little reminiscent of The Waste Land. You sound tired and jaded and yet
 there is still the generosity in the time you spend expressing all this.
 
 
  >> I know I am exhausted and emptied by the experience of just
  >> sorting through it all. Increasingly, I feel I would be much
  >> better off taking the time instead to pick up a book and read a
  >> philosopher, a good novelist or poet, something written by an
  >> intelligence undiminished by the electronic media,
 
 I don't understand this, the vividness of your imagery the generosity of
 your expression of yourself, your respect for words all leap out at me,
 undiminished by the medium.
 
 I am desperately wanting to believe that this technology which I
 profoundly mistrust, has somewhere the promise of carrying the Psyche to
 new and substantially  deeper levels of expression, that through this
 medium Gaia moves towards  more global self awareness.  As I write that I
 feel naiive and a little small and silly, young, but the hope is
 strengthened when I get a glimpse of the poet, the philosopher in what
 gets expressed through your words.
 
    someone who
  >> has listened to the inner voice and can articulate its wisdom.
 
 
 Yes! the inner voice. I am interested in this. Here you are saying these
 things from somewhere out there,  and there are resonnances in me.
 Inner/outer, what's the difference?  I connect up to my modem and see
 your voice. I get motivated to respond in a way that will honour your
 words and my reactions to them. I have to go deeper to search for the
 right words and get to know my inner voice more clearly.
 
 I look forward to more from you
 
 What's this scrap of rag look like?
 
 Regards
 
 
 
 Stuart
 --- xMail 1.00
  * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From stuart_currie@link.equinox.gen.nz Sun Apr 23 22:54:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Experience of Psybernet
From: Stuart Currie <stuart_currie@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 1995 22:54:00

Stuart is replying to Barry who replied to All on 10 Apr 95
 04:25am
 
 Hello Barry,
 
 I have been asleep for a while, life takes over and sometimes
 when I think about sitting down at this bastard machine, I
 close off. For me the technology is almost too difficult.
 
 However I have just read  Ron's letter and your reply, and I know what it is 
 that keeps me in here.
 
 I enthusiastically replied to Ron immediately I read his
message..excitement. 
 Yay...... and then lost the message.........!!!
 
 I
 Barry I am interested in the question raised by this BB
 regarding a comparison of edr and cyberspace.
 
 I met you first in Psybernet through your writing, then we met in your room
for 
 an hour with others  and  for  a few hyped up moments at Kate's party.
 
 "Nice chap", says the bit of me that isn't distracted by chatter, internal
or 
 external. "Feel very comfortable  easy  around him."
 However to sit in repose and read both your accounts of yourself and your 
 response to Ron, is a great delight.
 
 
 
 
  BK> I know Walter as a friend in edr. The first task I set
  BK> myself was to read the Psybernet Echo archives, to get a
  BK> sense of the history of Psybernet, and was immediately
  BK> struck by the intensity and intimacy, webs and flames
 and
  BK> silence, lone voices, excited chattering, fun, honesty
  BK> and boundless metaphors.  This medium is no less real
  BK> than edr, I decided.  A separate reality, (thanks,
  BK> Carlos).
 
 Grin
 
 Yes! A Separate Reality,  I have a separate reality of you when I meet you 
 here. I enjoy the intensity and warmth that gets expressed when you write.
 
 
  BK> Now, I am no technophobe, but hands-on (edr) help and
  BK> training in this medium is valuable and necessary for
 me,
 
 For me too, but it doesn't attract me at all, I don't want to do it,  feels 
 like hard work, I've been putting off ringing Planet for ages whinge
complain 
 sigh.
 
  I look forward to our coinciding at those Thursday meetings orsomewhere.
You 
 hav n't been in your  room when I've droptynne.
 
 Bye for now 
 
 
 Stuart.
 --- xMail 1.00
  * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From /walter@ Mon Apr 24 01:19:14 1995
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Congratulations
From: Self </walter>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 01:19:14

Stuart!

Congratulations. It got here

>  However I have just read  Ron's letter and your reply, and I know what
> it is that keeps me in here.
>  
>  I enthusiastically replied to Ron immediately I read his
> message..excitement. 
>  Yay...... and then lost the message.........!!!

Good to see this one through.


>   BK> Now, I am no technophobe, but hands-on (edr) help and
>   BK> training in this medium is valuable and necessary for
>   BK>me,

It does seem that face-to-face warm-up is a very important part
of this work.  It is rare that we have contributions from
people we don't have face-to-face relationships with.  

One reason is that I have never promoted this Conference, the
mechanism for distributing this list is still inadequate.  

But more than that is the value of meeting directly.  I am
planning a workshop, which will combine using the technical
stuff with becoming inspired to write and use the medium.  I am
checking out some computer labs, talking to providers and
drafting a brochure.  

The idea is having a Saturday, to discuss, write, discuss,
write and then to continue a group by e-mail for 2 weeks, and
then to meet again and to have another week of e-mail.  

This might work.

> --------------------------------------------------------
> Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
> --------------------------------------------------------

Apologies for this origin line on the end of all the mail, I
can't stop it, I must have a good go at that.  It was intended
for my mail only, but it appears everywhere.

It is this sort of thing that  makes it not quite ready for wider promotion.


Walter.



From /walter@ Mon Apr 24 14:23:20 1995
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Pressures
From: Self </walter>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 14:23:20

Tyranny of the net.

A demanding pulling and pushing of the life through this window.  

It is a strange place 'the net'.  Here Psybernet is slow and
deep (perhaps?).  There is a sense that we `should respond'.
Future Culture on almost a similar theme has up to 50 messages a
day. 

The tyranny there is that I feel restrained to reply, often
someone says what I want to say much better.  And the list is
too full.  

Hence there is a place for Psybernet, a stiller place where
people get responded to, even if it takes a few weeks.  What is
a few weeks?

If it got too busy we'd need to invent another. 

For all that, it is interesting to feel these urges of
responsibility.  Are they just feelings, or do we have a
responsibility?  We certainly never formally agreed to one by
writing in these public places.  

As I write, I think there is a place for a list where there
*is* some commitment, but this is not one of them. 


Walter.



From amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu Tue Apr 25 02:22:39 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Pressures
From: "Andrew J. McHugh" <amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 1995 10:22:39 -0400 (EDT)


On Mon, 24 Apr 1995, Walter Logeman wrote:

> A demanding pulling and pushing of the life through this window.

> 
> It is a strange place 'the net'.  Here Psybernet is slow and
> deep (perhaps?).  There is a sense that we `should respond'.
> Future Culture on almost a similar theme has up to 50 messages a
> day. 
> 
> The tyranny there is that I feel restrained to reply, often
> someone says what I want to say much better.  And the list is
> too full.  
> 
> Hence there is a place for Psybernet, a stiller place where
> people get responded to, even if it takes a few weeks.  What is
> a few weeks?
> 
> If it got too busy we'd need to invent another. 
> 
> For all that, it is interesting to feel these urges of
> responsibility.  Are they just feelings, or do we have a
> responsibility?  We certainly never formally agreed to one by
> writing in these public places.  
> 
> As I write, I think there is a place for a list where there
> *is* some commitment, but this is not one of them. 
> 
> 
> Walter.
> 
> __________________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman   walterl@chch.planet.co.nz, Psybernet 
> Psybernet Mailing List: listserv@link.equinox.gen.nz
> write: sub PSYBER-L in message.  Fax: +64 3 377 1207
> >>>>>    'The psyche is evolving in cyberspace.'    <<<<<.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 

-----
Andrew McHugh
amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu
-----

--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From sergios@prometheus.hol.gr Wed Apr 26 08:51:16 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: unsubscribe
From: sergios@prometheus.hol.gr
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 1995 22:51:16 +0200


unsubscribe

--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From 73313.1522@compuserve.com Wed Apr 26 14:07:59 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
From: "Mark S. Gill" <73313.1522@compuserve.com>
Date: 25 Apr 95 22:07:59 EDT


UNSUBSCRIBE

--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Wed Apr 26 22:48:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Unsubsribe information
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 1995 22:48:00

Hi,

To unsubscribe from this list please send a message to:

listserv@link.equinox.gen.nz

and in the body of the message write:

Unsubscribe PSYBER-L

Writing to the list itself will not do the trick.  Mail
direct to me, will result in you being sent this message.
Doing it manually is time consuming, and I am often not at
the right place to do that.

Please keep this info in a suitable place.

In the meantime, enjoy.


Walter
--- xMail 1.00
 * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From ctpost@aol.com Fri Apr 28 07:25:38 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: straight from the heart
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 15:25:38 -0400


Dear Stuart,

Thanks for your thoughtful, generous reply to my post. 
 
>>> 
 What's this scrap of rag look like?
<<< 
 
I'm starting with this, though it comes at the end of your post. What you
have written doesn't look like a scrap or a rag. It's not typical of email
because it seems to come directly from the heart; an outpouring of feelings;
feelings that have an integrity because they seem to be honestly expressed. 

>>>
I am desperately wanting to believe that this technology which I profoundly
mistrust, has somewhere the promise of carrying the Psyche to new and
substantially  deeper levels of expression, that through this medium Gaia
moves towards  more global self awareness.  As I write that I feel naiive and
a little small and silly, young...I have to go deeper to search for the right
words and get to know my inner voice more clearly.
<<<

When you speak of your inner voice, I hear an equal mixture of wonder and
fear. And this may go along with your feeling of naivte. Most voices I hear
on the Net have lost touch with this inner voice; can't hear it; don't want
to hear it or acknowledge it. And I rarely read words that have been written
from the heart. Much of it seems to come straight from the top of people's
heads. And there can be plenty of height there, but not much depth.

>>>
Right now the purpose of my writing is to react to what you say, to take
issue with some things, to let you know that...your expression of
yourself...encourages me to believe that " Quality" ( Zen and the Art of
Motorcycle Maintennance) is expressable through this medium. 
<<<

I think Quality is possible, too. And it's expecting of the Net to function
as a medium in the way literature does. Or (what is it that Pirsig calls
them: chattaquas?) a kind of secular sermon or homily -- an expression of
thought after deep reflection. I think often of his analogy of the mechanic
who never exerts force but waits and contemplates whenever he/she meets
resistance. 

>>>
Did you feel you were packaging yourself as you wrote this? What is it like
when you get this response? What do we hide when we write?
<<<

To be honest, I rarely speak unless I want to be heard, and I believe if you
want to be heard you have to speak a language people understand. To that
extent I packaged what I said. But I was aware as I wrote that I was trying
to find words for feelings I would normally not express in this company (ie,
among Net folk), and that I was probably saying something most of them would
take issue with. To use a marketing metaphor--they wouldn't *buy* it. And
judging by the reaction I got, I'd say most didn't. And that was OK. What I
learned from doing it was that expressing what I deeply felt (not
superficially and glibly and entertainingly, as I'm more inclined to do) and
posting it became an end in itself. I felt present here in a way I hadn't
before. Yours and others' responses to what I said were icing on the cake.

>>>
Is length of time the criterion for success in catching attention. Magic
happens in a split second.
<<< 

I was prepared to take issue with this, but it would be beside the point now.
I learned that I don't have to hold anyone's attention to be present on the
Net. As you say, the split second required to post my message worked the
magic.

>>>
True, I don't know your taste in interior decorating, whether you have kids
or like cats, what aftershave you are wearing or what your voice sounds like,
but already I have some sense of what might make you weep.
<<<
 
Nicely put. I hope you'll acknowledge that the ability to read this from what
I wrote belongs to the reader, not the words themselves. 

I'd like to hear more from you. Be well.

Ron 
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From ctpost@aol.com Fri Apr 28 07:25:41 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: prose, poems, posts
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 15:25:41 -0400


Dear Walter,
 
It has taken me over 2 weeks to reply to Stuart's and your posts on my reply
to your manifesto, which is now probably a month old, and much water has
flowed under the bridges of the world. Some of it maybe more than once.

>>> 
 I liked what someone said in the Future Culture list, Taylor, I think,
'there is prose, poetry, and posts.'
<<<

You're right. Posts are a genre unto themselves. They fool us because they
are like other genres. They're something like letters, conversation,
grafitti, and notes left on the refrigerator, but they are still busily and
messily in the process of becoming whatever it is they'll become. 

>>>
On the whole I am not disagreeing with you, I just have more hope about the
medium... My hope comes from a vision of creating groups, task or process
oriented, that do it well.  That avoid the traps you mention.
<<<

When we worry aloud like this about 'the medium', I realize that we are often
confusing medium and content (McLuhan would have said medium and message; I
wish he were still here to reflect on all this). We worry that the future of
the Net relies on the content that flows over it, when the Net is an
extension of ourselves. We worry about how the Net will change us. While the
Net is an instrument of change that is already taking place in us. I see that
what I say about the Net is frequently a projection of my own drama - my own
inner battle of gods and humans. Thanks for clarifying that.
 
Be well,
Ron
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------



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From ctpost@aol.com Fri Apr 28 07:25:41 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: prose, poems, posts
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 1995 15:25:41 -0400


Dear Walter,
 
It has taken me over 2 weeks to reply to Stuart's and your posts on my reply
to your manifesto, which is now probably a month old, and much water has
flowed under the bridges of the world. Some of it maybe more than once.

>>> 
 I liked what someone said in the Future Culture list, Taylor, I think,
'there is prose, poetry, and posts.'
<<<

You're right. Posts are a genre unto themselves. They fool us because they
are like other genres. They're something like letters, conversation,
grafitti, and notes left on the refrigerator, but they are still busily and
messily in the process of becoming whatever it is they'll become. 

>>>
On the whole I am not disagreeing with you, I just have more hope about the
medium... My hope comes from a vision of creating groups, task or process
oriented, that do it well.  That avoid the traps you mention.
<<<

When we worry aloud like this about 'the medium', I realize that we are often
confusing medium and content (McLuhan would have said medium and message; I
wish he were still here to reflect on all this). We worry that the future of
the Net relies on the content that flows over it, when the Net is an
extension of ourselves. We worry about how the Net will change us. While the
Net is an instrument of change that is already taking place in us. I see that
what I say about the Net is frequently a projection of my own drama - my own
inner battle of gods and humans. Thanks for clarifying that.
 
Be well,
Ron
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Sat Apr 29 00:22:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: prose, poems, posts
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 00:22:00


 > When we worry aloud like this about 'the medium', I realise that we are o
 > confusing medium and content (McLuhan would have said medium and;
 > message wish he were still here to reflect on all this). We worry that 
 the
 > future the Net relies on the content that flows over it, when the Net is 
 an
 > extension of ourselves. We worry about how the Net will change us.
 > While Net is an instrument of change that is already taking place in us. 
 I
 > see what I say about the Net is frequently a projection of my own drama
 >- my inner battle of gods and humans. Thanks for clarifying that.
 
 Did I glean correctly on Future Culture that you are a playwright, Ron?  
 This means you are already very familiar with another medium.  Is there a 
 crossover?  
 
 I am familiar with psychodrama, and many of the principles relate to both 
 mediums.  
 
 I struggle with this medium/message thing.  When you say (in another post) 
 how height, is likely to be here and not depth, I want, hope, that it is 
 content, not medium.  The intellectualisation, flaming, distancing, is that 
 inherent?  We discussed that here once for months.  I came to the position 
 that even if it was, I would endeavour to go against it.  Heroic Zen, I 
 called it because when I view it like that I go into the mode of watching 
 and accepting without giving up on the defiance of the tendency thrust upon 
 me.
 
 Warm wishes,
 
 Walter.
 
 
 
  * Wave Rider 1.20 [NR] *
 ... UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
 --- xMail 1.00
  * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From ctpost@aol.com Mon May 01 00:31:25 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: prose, poems, posts
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 1995 08:31:25 -0400


Dear Walter,
 
>>>>>>
 I struggle with this medium/message thing.  When you say (in another post)
how height, is likely to be here and not depth, I want, hope, that it is
content, not medium.  The intellectualisation, flaming, distancing, is that
inherent?  We discussed that here once for months.  I came to the position
that even if it was, I would endeavour to go against it.  Heroic Zen, I
called it because when I view it like that I go into the mode of watching
 and accepting without giving up on the defiance of the tendency thrust upon
me.
>>>>>>>

As I understand it, the Net came into being as an invention of Western
technology to create a bomb-proof communications network for self-protection
in wartime. Ironically, the peace-time use is now supporting the growth of an
anti-government bomb subculture. Born out of one kind of paranoia; now a
powerful tool in the spread of another kind of paranoia. This says something
about what's inherent in the medium -- and I'm not sure what. It's too early
to predict how this drama will unfold. So far, it's been full of surprises.

I agree about the need for some kind of heroism in bucking the tide on the
Net. A good friend has a favorite slogan, Speak Truth to Authority. In this
case, it's speaking one's truth in the presence of the dominant Net culture,
expecting nothing in return. This bears an unfortunate resemblance to Lear
cursing the storm, but it _was_ part of a process of healing for him. 

I think the mistake is to be bullied into silence. Or to be disappointed by a
lack of desired response to one's efforts to communicate. Or to yield to the
impulse to be glib, provocative, entertaining or whatever it takes to hold
people's attention. It's one's own content that counts, and the medium lets
you post it, so you can see yourself, exactly as you are, even if no one else
does.

Thx,
Ron



--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Mon May 01 21:25:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Jungian newsgroup
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Mon, 01 May 1995 21:25:00

forwarded:
 
 Organization: CRS Online  (Toronto, Ontario)
 From: carroll.bishop@canrem.com
 To: walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
 Subject: jung proposal
 
 
 Hi Walter.  Jung newsgroup proposal has been posted in Alt.
 Config, Sci.Psychology, Alt.Mythology, Alt.Dreams, Alt.Dreams.
 Lucid, and no doubt some other places.  REad and react, and
 by all means get a discussion going or write a letter of'
 support to the newsgroup(s) of your choice.
 
 Carroll.Bishop@canrem.com
 
 --- xMail 1.00
 
 
  * Wave Rider 1.20 [NR] *
 ... UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
 --- xMail 1.00
  * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From sue_townsend%f135.n770.z3@link.equinox.gen.nz Sat May 06 15:23:36 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Re Experience of Psybernet
From: Sue Townsend <sue_townsend%f135.n770.z3@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Sat, 06 May 1995 15:23:36

SC>I have been a sleeper, an enthusiastic participant, a frustrated and
 SC>angry struggler fighting the technology
 
 Hi Stuart, how goes it?  I promised to write to you on here after we met at 
 the Choral Federation workshop, so here I am.  And re the above - I've been 
 all of those things too, but I gave up in disillusionment.  I still wanted 
 to say hi to you here, though, as I'd promised.
 
 SC>support to enable me to try again, and again to return to face what for
 SC>me is difficult and painful.
 
 Is it painful for you mostly because of the technology, or because of the 
 content?
 
 SC>The rewards have been experiences that hav
 SC>had me rejoicing, crying, being frightened, angry, irritated, outraged
 SC>and sad. I play on the edge of  new ideas for a while, get beaten by th
 SC>technology, return in a desultory half hearted way to experience Tantal
 SC>and  Sysyphys........and then I read what you write and immediately I a
 SC>enlivened, and have to answer immediately,- I get inspired.
 
 I can relate to that lot from my times in BBSing.  It's all very seductive, 
 really.
 
 SC>Yes that is true, the question is how we do it. Did you feel you were
 SC>packaging yourself as you wrote this? What is it like when you get this
 SC>response? What do we hide when we write?
 
 Still interesting questions.  I got some answers, especially to the last 
 one!!!
 
 Say, to turn to much more interesting topics, are you still playing the 
 viol da gamba?  Do you have contact with Rhona Lever?  Is there any 
 interesting early music stuff going on in Christchurch?  I was unfortunate 
 to have made contact with EMSOC only just before it folded up, and I regret 
 to this day that I didn't discover it sooner - soon enough to form links 
 with people that would endure beyond the Society's dissolution.
 
 I'd like to get into some madrigal singing and, even better, some quasi 
 viol da gamba playing on my cello.  That's because I figure I can't afford 
 the real thing - on that subject, where did you get yours, and how much did 
 it cost?  Did you previously, or do you, play the cello?  I know Rhona 
 did/does.  And what are the differences in playing, technically speaking?  
 How do you find having frets?  What does it do for your sense of 
 intonation?  Is all the playing senza vibrato?  Or is it true, as I've 
 had suggested to me, that there's a vibrato technique that involves 
 pulling the string laterally, as is done by guitarists?
 
 Plus lots of other questions!  It's a good number of years now since I saw 
 you in the early music context - perhaps you've moved well away from it and 
 my questions are meaningless.  As you can gather, though, I maintain a 
 strong interest.
 
 One thing I have done along that line recently was in relation to the cello 
 summer school, which was held here just on New Year.  One of the 
 participants had made an arrangement for four celli of one of the 
 Palestrina masses.  We did it as an ensemble exercise with doubling on the 
 parts - there were eight of us playing.  I would have to say it was the 
 most enjoyable experience I had had for more years than I can remember.  It 
 just hit the mark - the perfect combination of all the interests closest to 
 my heart.
 
 SC>I am desperately wanting to believe that this technology which I
 SC>profoundly mistrust
 
 Can you speak about what lies behind that mistrust?
 
 SC>, has somewhere the promise of carrying the Psyche t
 SC>new and substantially  deeper levels of expression, that through this
 SC>medium Gaia moves towards  more global self awareness.
 
 Bloody great if it could.
 
 Good to see you at the workshop, and good to talk to you here.
 
 Sue
 
  * Wave Rider 1.20 [NR] *
 ... UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
 --- Blue Wave/Maximus
  * Origin: Prompt/2 - The Christchurch, NZ, OS/2 User Group BBS (3:770/135)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From don_parker@link.equinox.gen.nz Sun May 07 14:41:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Breathing Space
From: Don Parker <don_parker@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Sun, 07 May 1995 14:41:00


Thank God for Psybernet - a space to breathe in. Let me explain...

I have the benefit(?) of access to a BBS run for Anglican Clergy. As I read 
the
messages posted on the 'Clergy Public Noticeboard' I am disturbed by the
constant moaning that Clergy engage in.

Now, I 'm NOT disturbed because they are moaning per se. Let 'em moan.

What really disturbs is the constant circling and retracing of footsteps 
withou
anyone (apparently) noticing it.

It's a bit like that Winnie the Pooh story when Pooh and Piglet are following

some Hephalump tracks and notice how every now and then two more
Hephalumps are added to the number that they are tracking. (All along it's 
just
their own footsteps!)

My interpretation of this phenomenon is quite simply this: this is how the
Psyche works. It quite literally makes us chase our tail until we realise the 
f
of our cognitive fantasies!

So each time I read the Clergy Public BBS I see how another Hephalump has
joined the hunt!

Bless these Clerics - I love 'em ('cause I iz one!) but just listening to them
a Hillmanian perspective (or any reasonably informed psychotherapeutic
perspective for that matter) is so hard.

When I listen to my Clerical colleagues I don't feel superior - just grateful 
t
somewhere in history Jung found an escape from the eternal loop of cognitive
thinking!

Anyone's comments on my ravings will be most welcome.

Regards


Don
^Z
 --- xMail 1.00
  * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From dee@PAWPAW.EASYNET.CO.UK Mon May 08 20:04:40 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L
              <PSYBER-L@home.dc.LSOFT.COM>
Subject: Playback
From: josh on <dee@PAWPAW.EASYNET.CO.UK>
Date: Mon, 8 May 1995 09:04:40 +0100

Hi Walter and all,

I have been really enjoying the conversations of recent and hopefully will
be joining in.  In the mean time I have a question that I hope someone can
answer.  Does anyone know about anybody doing Playback Theatre in London?
I really want to get involved.  Playback is a form of live theatre created
by Johnathon Fox in 1975 and based on the principles of J Moreno.  Audience
members are encouraged to share stories from their lives which are then
"played back" to them.  Great stuff.

Josh On.

_______________________________________________________________
For list options & how to leave PSYBER-L list, send an email to
LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM,  in the text write: HELP PSYBER-L




From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Thu May 11 22:59:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Jungian newsgroup
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 22:59:00

 Dear all

I have received a message that -- alt.psychology.jung  is
open -- though nothing much is happening.


As it is very new it will be interesting to see how such a
newsgroup evolves.

I will attempt to gate it to the Psybernet BBS.


Walter
--- xMail 1.00
 * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From /walter@ Tue May 16 21:44:06 1995
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: A transition for psychotherapy?
From: Self </walter>
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 21:44:06

Hi all, in this quiet place!

I have been working on the Psybernet WWW pages, and it has been
hard work, I have learnt to write in html, a little unix (very
little) and I have now got Win95 working on my machine.  There
are many late nights in that.  And the pages are sadly, not
quite ready, three of the links don't work, and that means the
whole is not ready.  What a business.  If any expert web
writers read this let me know I need help!

But it is not the technical side that motivates me to put pen
to paper (v).  My business cards in my psychotherapy practice
are running out.  I thought about putting my e-mail address on
the next one, and then  . . . oh god, I could put the http
address there.  

Am I the first therapist with this dilemma?  What does this
mean for the delicate art of self-disclosure?  I am sure that
psychotherapists who write books must deal with the effect of
their publication on the work with their clients.  The Internet
seems more exposing than that as it is so interactive.  It is
as if I am allowing a leak out of the container of the
psychotherapy room.  I am sure there would be many who will
adopt a 'classical' approach.  No e-mail to or from clients. 
No web pages about the psychotherapy practice -- these things
will destroy the therapeutic relationship.  

Somehow I don't think I am in that classical camp.  On the
other hand I have not favoured the leak of audio and video into
the psychotherapy space.  

All for now,

Walter.




From /walter@ Wed May 17 11:39:45 1995
To: Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: (Fwd) CFP: Theories and Metaphors of Cyberspace (Vienna, April
From: Self </walter>
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 11:39:45

The following conference seems to be very psybernet related, I 
will be following up on it.  Walter:




                          CALL FOR PAPERS

************************************************************************
*                             Symposium :                              *
*                 THEORIES AND METAPHORS OF CYBERSPACE                 *
*                                                                      *
* modelling the cognitive and social implications of global networking *
*                                                                      *
************************************************************************

                         as part of the

    13th European Meeting on Cybernetics and Systems Research
               EMCSR'96, Vienna, April 9-12, 1996



Symposium URL:  http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/cybspasy.html


About the Symposium:
-------------------

A symposium organized by the Principia Cybernetica Project (PCP) will be
held at EMCSR'96. Chaipersons are F. Heylighen and S. Umpleby. The
objective is to better understand the implications of the present explosive
growth in global computer networks, like the Internet or the World-Wide
Web. We wish to develop models of how these networks will further develop
and how they will affect individuals and society on all levels.

Soon, the whole of human knowledge will be directly available to any person
with access to a networked computer. Moreover, communication between
individuals will become much easier, faster and more transparent. "Smart"
computer systems will allow novel applications (virtual reality,
intelligent agents, distributed processing, automated indexing...) that no
one before ever would have dreamt of. These changes will affect and deeply
transform all aspects of society: education (distance learning, electronic
universities), work (telework, groupware), commerce (electronic cash and
banking), the media, government (electronic democracy), health, science and
technology... It seems as though society's collective intelligence will
increase manifold, perhaps producing an evolutionary transition to a higher
level of intelligence.

As these developments are so fast, and so difficult to predict, precise
models are usually not possible. In that case, comprehension may be helped
by using analogies. Examples of such metaphors for global network functions
are the "Information Superhighway", the network as a "Super-brain", which
emphasizes the collective intelligence of all users and computers connected
by the network, Jacques Vallee's notion of an "information singularity",
which notes that networked information becomes instantaneously available
everywhere, and "Cyberspace" itself, which visualizes networked information
as an immense space through which one can "surf".

Metaphors, however, only express one or a few aspects of a multidimensional
phenomenon. Therefore, we should move to more detailed and comprehensive
models, which can be tested by observation, implementation or simulation.
Cybernetics, as a theory of communication, information and control, seems
most directly applicable to such model-building, but valuable insights may
come from the most diverse domains: sociology, futurology, AI, complex
systems, man-machine interaction, cognitive psychology, etc. Our emphasis
is on concepts, principles, and observations, rather than on technical
protocols or implementations, although existing systems may  provide a
concrete illustration from which more general implications can be derived.


The Conference

The European Meetings on Cybernetics and Systems Research are possibly the
most important and best organized large congresses in their domain. Though
they are called "European" by tradition, they really bring together
researchers from all continents. Among the distinctive features are the
high quality, well-distributed Proceedings, which are available at the
start of the Conference. Therefore, papers should be submitted quite a
while before the start of the conference.


Submission of papers

Full papers on the above themes should be directly submitted to the
Conference Secretariat (mentioning you wish to submit to Symposium L), not
to the Symposium Chairs. However, we would like you to already send a 1 to
2 page abstract of your paper to F. Heylighen (fheyligh@vnet3.vub.ac.be),
so that we can tell you quickly whether this topic is suitable for the
symposium, and so that the abstract can be made available on the World-Wide
Web for other participants to read. We would like to receive the abstract
well enough in advance so that you would be able to get your full paper
ready by the October 12, 1995 deadline. (note that acceptance of the
abstract does not necessarily imply acceptance of the full paper).


About Principia Cybernetica:
----------------------------

The Principia Cybernetica Project (PCP) is a collaborative attempt to
develop a complete cybernetic and evolutionary philosophy. Such a
philosophical system should arise from a transdisciplinary unification and
foundation of the domain of Systems Theory and Cybernetics. Similar to the
metamathematical character of Whitehead and Russell's "Principia
Mathematica", PCP is meta-cybernetical in that we use cybernetic tools and
methods to analyze and develop cybernetic theory.

These include the computer-based tools of hypertext, electronic mail,
electronic publishing, and knowledge structuring software. They are meant
to support the process of collaborative theory-building by a variety of
contributors, with different backgrounds and living in different parts of
the world. PCP thus naturally develops in the "cyberspace" of interlinked
documents on the World-Wide Web. PCP's web server can be found at
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/.

PCP is being developed as a dynamic, multi-dimensional conceptual network.
The basic architecture consists of nodes, containing expositions and
definitions of concepts, connected by links, representing the associations
that exist between the concepts. Both nodes and links can belong to
different types, expressing different semantic and practical categories.

As its name implies, PCP focuses on the clarification of fundamental
concepts and principles of the broadly defined domain of cybernetics and
systems, which includes related disciplines such as the "sciences of
complexity", AI, ALife, Cognitive Science, Evolutionary Systems, etc.
Concepts include: Complexity, Information, Entropy, System, Freedom,
Control, Self-organization, Emergence, etc.

The PCP philosophical system is to be seen as a clearly thought out and
well-formulated, global "world view", integrating the different domains of
knowledge and experience. It should provide an answer to the basic
questions: "Who am I? Where do I come from? Where am I going to?".

The PCP philosophy is systemic and evolutionary, based on the spontaneous
emergence of higher levels of organization or control (metasystem
transitions) through blind variation and natural selection. It includes:
  a) a metaphysics, based on processes or actions as ontological primitives,
  b) an epistemology, which understands knowledge as constructed by the
subject or group, but undergoing selection by the environment;
  c) an ethics, with survival and the continuance of the process of
evolution as supreme values.

Philosophy and implementation of PCP are united by their common framework
based on cybernetic and evolutionary principles: the computer-support
system is intended to amplify the spontaneous development of knowledge
which forms the main theme of the philosophy.

PCP is managed by a board of editors, presently: V. Turchin [CUNY, New
York], C. Joslyn [NASA and SUNY Binghamton] and F. Heylighen [Free Univ. of
Brussels]. Contributors are kept informed through the PRNCYB-L electronic
mailing list. Further activities of PCP are publications in journals or
books, and the organization of meetings or symposia.

More information about PCP is available at http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/, by
anonymous ftp to is1.vub.ac.be, directory
/pub/projects/Principia_Cybernetica, or by email request to
PCP@vnet3.vub.ac.be.


About EMCSR'96
--------------

Cybernetics - "the study of communication and control in the animal and
the machine" (N.Wiener) - has recently returned to the forefront, not
only in cyberpunk and cyberspace, but, even more important, contributing
to the consolidation of various scientific theories. Additionally, an
ever increasing number of research areas, including social and economic
theories, theoretical biology, ecology, computer science, and robotics
draw on ideas from second order cybernetics. Artificial intelligence,
evolved directly from cybernetics, has not only technological and
economic, but also important social impacts. With a marked trend
towards interdisciplinary cooperation and global perspectives, this
important role of cybernetics is expected to be further strengthened
over the next years.

Since 1972, the biennial European Meetings on Cybernetics and Systems
Research (EMCSR) have served as a forum for discussion of converging
ideas and new aspects of different scientific disciplines. As on
previous occasions, a number of sessions providing wide coverage of the
rapid developments will be arranged, complemented with daily plenary
meetings, where eminent speakers will present latest research results.


SESSIONS + Chairpersons:

   A    General Systems Methodology
        G.J.Klir, USA

   B    New Developments in Mathematical Systems Theory
        Y.Rav, France, and F.Pichler, Austria

   C    Complex Systems Analysis and Design
        J.W.Rozenblit, USA, and H.Praehofer, Austria

   D    Fuzzy Systems, Approximate Reasoning and Knowledge-Based Systems
        C.Carlsson, Finland, K.-P.Adlassnig, Austria, and E.P.Klement,
        Austria

   E    Designing and Systems, and Their Education
        B.Banathy, USA, W.Gasparski, Poland, and G.Goldschmidt, Israel

   F    Humanity, Architecture and Conceptualization
        G.Pask, UK, and E.Prem, Austria

   G    Biocybernetics and Mathematical Biology
        L.M.Ricciardi, Italy

   H    Cybernetics and Informatics in Medicine and Psychotherapy
        M.Okuyama, Japan, and G.Porenta, Austria

   I    Cybernetics of Socio-Economic Systems and of Country Development
        K.Balkus, USA, P.Ballonoff, USA, and S.A.Umpleby, USA

   J    Systems, Management and Organization
        G.Broekstra, Netherlands, and R.Hough, USA

   K    Communication and Computers
        A M.Tjoa, Austria

   L    Theories and Metaphors of Cyberspace
        F.Heylighen, Belgium, and S.A.Umpleby, USA

   M    Knowledge Discovery in Databases
        Y.Kodratoff, France

   N    Artificial Neural Networks and Adaptive Systems
        G.Palm, Germany, and G.Dorffner, Austria

   O    Theory and Applications of Artificial Intelligence
        V.Marik, Czech Republic, and E.Buchberger, Austria


SUBMISSION GUIDELINES: Acceptance of contributions will be
determined on the basis of Draft Final Papers. These Papers
must not exceed 10 single-spaced A4 pages (maximum 43 lines, max.
line length 160 mm, 12 point), in English. They have to contain
the final text to be submitted, including graphs and pictures.
However, these need not be of reproducible quality.
The Draft Final Paper must carry the title, author(s) name(s), and
affiliation (incl. e-mail address, if possible) in this order.
Please specify the symposium in which you would like to present
your paper. Each scientist shall submit only   o n e   paper.
Please send   f o u r   hard copies of the Draft Final Paper
to the Conference Secretariat (NOT to symposia chairpersons!)
Electronic or fax submissions cannot be accepted.

DEADLINE FOR SUBMISSION: October 12, 1995.
Submissions received after the deadline cannot be considered.

NOTIFICATION OF ACCEPTANCE/REJECTION: Authors will be notified
about acceptance or rejection no later than December 11, 1995.
Successful authors will be provided by the conference secretariat
at the same time with the instructions for the preparation of the
final paper, which will also be available via ftp and World-Wide
Web.

FINAL PAPERS: The final paper will be limited to a maximum of
6 pages (10-point, double column). Camera-ready copies of the
final paper will be due at the conference secretariat by
January 29, 1996. Acceptance of the final paper will be based
on compliance with the reviewers' comments.

PRESENTATION: It is understood that each accepted paper is
presented personally at the Meeting by one of its authors.

CONFERENCE FEE:
AS 2800 if received before January 31, 1996
AS 3300 if received later
AS 3800 if paid at the conference desk.
The Conference Fee includes participation in the Thirteenth European
Meeting, attendance at official receptions, and the volume of the
proceedings available at the Meeting.
Please send cheque, or transfer the amount free of charges for
beneficiary to our account no. 0026-34400/00 at
Creditanstalt-Bankverein Vienna. Please state your name clearly.

HOTEL ACCOMMODATIONS will be handled by OESTERREICHISCHES
VERKEHRSBUERO, Kongressabteilung, P.O.Box 30, A-1043 Vienna,
phone +43-1-58925-118, fax +43-1-5867127. Reservation cards
will be sent to all those returning the attached registration form.

SCHOLARSHIPS: The International Federation for Systems Research
and the Austrian Society for Cybernetic Studies are willing to
provide a limited number of scholarships covering the registration
fee for the conference and part of the accommodation costs for
colleagues from weak currency countries. Applications should be
sent to the Conference Secretariat before October 12, 1995. -
The EMCSR organizers cannot handle applications for participants
to obtain support from other sources.



CHAIRMAN of the Meeting: Robert Trappl, President
                         Austrian Society for Cybernetic Studies

SECRETARIAT:             I. Ghobrial-Willmann and G. Helscher
                         Austrian Society for Cybernetic Studies

                         A-1010 Vienna 1, Schottengasse 3 (Austria)
                         Phone: +43-1-53532810
                         Fax: +43-1-5320652
                         E-mail: sec@ai.univie.ac.at

------------------------------------------------------------------------


EMCSR-96  THIRTEENTH EUROPEAN MEETING ON CYBERNETICS AND SYSTEMS RESEARCH


Please return to: Austrian Society for Cybernetic Studies
                  Schottengasse 3, A-1010 VIENNA, AUSTRIA (EUROPE)
                  E-mail: sec@ai.univie.ac.at

   o    I plan to attend the Meeting.

   o    I intend to submit a paper to Session .....

   o    I enclose the Draft Final Paper.

   o    My Draft Final Paper will arrive prior to October 12, 1995.

   o    My cheque for AS ....... covering the Conference Fee is enclosed.

   o    I have transferred AS ........ to your account 0026-34400/00
        at Creditanstalt Vienna.

   o    I shall not be at the Meeting but am interested to receive
        particulars of the Proceedings.


Name     :
Address  :
City     :
Country  :
Email    :


_____________________________________________________

If you wish to present your paper in the session L, "Theories and Metaphors
of Cyberspace", please send a copy of this form AND a 1 to 2 page abstract
in ASCII or HTML by email to fheyligh@vnet3.vub.ac.be. (the abstract should
not be sent to the Vienna address above).




________________________________________________________________________
Dr. Francis Heylighen, Systems Researcher       fheyligh@vnet3.vub.ac.be
PESP, Free University of Brussels, Pleinlaan 2, B-1050 Brussels, Belgium
Tel +32-2-6292525; Fax +32-2-6292489; http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/HEYL.html



From don_parker@link.equinox.gen.nz Sat May 20 12:00:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: A transition for psychotherapy?
From: Don Parker <don_parker@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 12:00:00

I'm experiencing something which seems to be similar. I drift onto the Clergy 
BBS run locally for Anglican Clergy. When I disengage it feels very much like 
the close of a Therapeutic hour (although in reality it may be much 
shorter.)The level of disclosure by Clergy on that BBS is positively 
'confessional', although I don't believe that Therapy is just about 
'confessing'.

Interestingly enough, the so-called misunderstandings which have occured have 
a very clear psychegenesis (at least, that's how I see it.) And there's more 
going on. As a Cleric and Therapist I have always tried to keep the 
boundaries clear. Yet on that BBS I find the erosion of those boundaries both 
seductive and powerful.

Which brings me to a very Hillmanian question: what god is at work in this 
situation?

Your thoughts would be appreciated

Regards

Don
 --- xMail 1.00
  * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From /walter@ Sun May 21 00:35:31 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: A transition for psychotherapy?
From: Self </walter>
Date: Sun, 21 May 1995 00:35:31

Hi Don,


> I'm experiencing something which seems to be similar. 

Yes, the similarity is that the e medium is having an impact on
the way these professions develop.  To some extent you are
confessional here, and this is a public place, where colleagues
and clients (and parishioners) alike have a window into your
thoughts.  We have not been so easily, so casually  visible. 
The visibility does blur boundaries.

I was thinking how I use self disclosure in a session.  It is
rare, and if it occurs it is _if I think it is of benefit to
the client_ .  I am now plastered all over cyberspace and any
the time will come when clients read all this.  Clearly
colleagues do!  I could cease to disclose  here, other than 
that I have lost the power of discrimination ofe when & what to 
say to whom.  

> As a Cleric and Therapist I have always tried to keep the
> boundaries clear. Yet on that BBS I find the erosion of those
> boundaries both seductive and powerful.

Do you feel 'seduced' by the medium to become a therapist in
the midst of clerics?  What is the boundary between these
professions?  Would you be a therapist to a parishioner?  

> Which brings me to a very Hillmanian question: what god is at
> work in this situation?

I see the world becoming wired, there is no escape.  In this
there is a sense of all being one, connected.  People speak of
the sovereignty of cyberspace.  I have a sense of us all
entering naked into a new land.  Thus the place also id likened
to a new frontier, where we are settlers.  This leads to the
dimension of 'community' -- like it or not we form strong bonds
around our learning, information, ideas, values.  But there is
the strong sense of freedom that lies in the power of being
able to express oneself to the world, of having an individual
say.  This brings with it an almost Ayn Rand type of
libertarianism.  

I have not named the gods, I hope someone can, but I see the
archetypes of pioneer, 'community spirit', and individualist.

To go totally confessional:  I had a dream last of being naked
in a park.  I was carrying a bag with three human brains in it.
 Later I had the brains wired up to my laptop, any old lead
would do, the modem . . .  the power cord.  

It was a cyberspace dream of some sort.  See any gods there?


Walter



From /walter@ Tue May 23 15:47:38 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Digital Living 
From: Self </walter>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 15:47:38

Hi all,

I have been experimenting with a weekly column.  I have a plan
to try this one out on the Christchurch Press computer page on
a Tuesday.  I'd love some critical input from anyone who knows
about journalism (or even if you don't) -- there are probably
some glaring newbie journalist errors here.  I have no idea if
the press would want something like this, but I could churn
them without too much trouble, it is not so different from the
messages I write here anyway -- I could also put up my weekly
column on the WWW.

This one is a 500 word one, I see that as about the format I
feel comfortable with.


Digital Living

Tuesday 30 May 1995

Internet Impact on our lives.

High schools are connected to the Internet, and if they are
not, then they will be.  Students from Shirley Boy's it was
reported last week (Press Tuesday 23 May page 23)  are the most
active group on the French Global Class mailing list.  By the
sound of the article they will have a World Wide Web (WWW) page
with information about the school before long.

This is a small example of a shift in the world that is having
an impact on us all.  What are the consequences for ordinary
living?  Did television change our lives?  I'm sure that was
just a pimple on the mountain of change the Communication Age
will bring, or rather _is bringing_.

Let me give you a few more examples.  One of the things I look
for now, before I buy something new is the associated Internet
discussion group.  No instant support or a poor press from
users and I don't spend.

I read the weekly column by Howard Rheingold (editor of the
latest Millennium Whole Earth Catalogue -- a nostalgia trip for
aging hippies) on my laptop.  I also get WinNews with the
official news on Windows 95. The Virtual Mirror and Hotwired
send me a resume each week of what is new on their WWW pages.
These regular arrivals to my screen, interspersed with personal
mail and psychological discussions that I participate in are
like the arrival of the paper in the morning.  I relax,
somewhat habitually, with a coffee as I read my mail.  

Who will be affected by this?  A noted business consultant
specialising in communication technology, Patricia Seybold
said:  "If you are not wired by 2000 you will be out of
business".  I had an interesting discussion with Dan Randow
from ComputerLand the other day.  Will this apply to a window
cleaner?  We came up with the following:  Any one can clean
windows (apologies to all windowologists).  The ones that can
_inform_ us of their skill, be flexibly available, be
accessible in the first place will have the competitive edge. 
They will also be connected to other cleaning services and
products, and will be able to offer a variety of payment
options to the customer.  They will have to be wired.  All
business is communication business.

What about our personal lives?  My guess it there will be a
flourish of IAA groups (Internet Addicts Anonymous) before
long, and most of them will meet asynchronously all day and
night -- on line while the rest of us sleep.  More seriously,
which high school will a 12 year old choose?  They will browse
the offerings on the Web.  They will pre-enrol by e-mail, get
all the cool stuff on the subjects they want to do in their
virtual mailbox and they will access the timetable to see if
hypertext 1 clashes with Physical education.  By the time they
go to university they will mail essays to the lecturers, and
eventually seek jobs that are promoted on-line.  How else could
we do it?  It would just be too uncool.

Walter Logeman, 

Walter Logeman is a psychotherapist and consultant in
communications.

walterl@chch.planet.co.nz 




From /walter@ Fri May 26 22:32:51 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Psybernet Web Pages
From: Self </walter>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 22:32:51

Hi all,

The Psybernet WWW pages are up!  I think they look great, even
if I say so myself.  I know they work in Netscape 1.1 for
Windows , other than that I'd appreciate feedback of problems
and also solutions!   

More importantly, there will be lots of things to add.  Posting
them to this list is a good idea, I can then add them to the
pages.  

Here is the address:

"http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html" 

I think the quotes make this a clickable item if you save this
message and open it as a file in Netscape.  

I will announce the pages in newsgroups for that purpose, and
also in various psychology ones and so on.  Any suggestions
where the information should go would be appreciated.

The last two Psybernet Zines are available from the pages. 

I will post some of the snippets from these pages here, for
those who do not have web access.


Walter.





From /walter@ Fri May 26 22:42:58 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Jacob Levy Moreno Page
From: Self </walter>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 22:42:58

Hi ALL,

What follows is one of the web pages, copied straight from the 
page.  It is not as fancy as on the web, with the distinctive 
Psybernet orange background .. . .  but it is typical of how the 
pages are developing.  Clearly they have a long way to go.  I'll 
also post one of the snippets from another page that has 
ypertext leading to this page.  In other words, where the word 
Moreno comes up (in dark blue) the mouse will take you to the 
material below.

--------------------------------------------------------------


Psybernet 


                Jacob Levy Moreno Page 

Jacob Levy Moreno is the originator of: 

psychodrama 
sociodrama 
role training 
sociometry 
group psychotherapy 

His work is highly relevant to the relationships on the
Internet. It is one of the phenomena associated with Moreno that
he is so invisible in the literature. This may be because of
the style of his work and the fact that he self published. A
more profound reason might be that he pioneered a new way of
learning and knowing, he has an approach to method that
transcends the science / art split in the people related
disciplines. 

I will continue to develop this page and would appreciate
assistance of references to his work or contribution of files. 


Work about Jacob Levy Moreno 

Marineau, Rene F. Jacob Levy Moreno 1889 - 1974 Father of
psychodrama, sociometry, and group psychotherapy. Routlidge 1989
London & New York. 


Jacob Levy Moreno Bibliography 

Very incomplete, it would be a worthwhile project to have the
full bibliography in digital form. 

Fox, Jonathan (Ed.) 1987 
The Essential Moreno. Springler New York. 

Psychodrama. Volumes 1, 2 and 3. Beacon House, New York. 

Sociometry, Experimental Method and the Science of Society. An
Approach to a New Political Orientation. Beacon House, Inc.
Beacon New York. 1951 This is the work where I become inspired
by his methodology. wl 

"Psychodramatic Production Techniques", Group Psychotherapy, Psychodrama
Sociometry 4 (1952) Quoted in Fox 1987. 

Who Shall Survive? Foundations of Sociometry, Group
Psychotherapy and Sociodrama. Beacon House, Inc. Beacon New
York. 1953 



If you arrived at this page by a route other than the Psybernet
pages, you may be interested in having a look there, especially
at the Psybernet Conference. Discussion of Moreno's work would
enhance the value of the Conference. In the Psybernet groups
the principles of Moreno are applied to this medium. The
principal connection between Morenian method and Psybernet is
that we aim to use experiential learning in all the Psybernet
endeavours. 

This page is a purely independent venture, however I would be
more than pleased to cooperate with groups and individuals in
the electronic acknowledgment of Moreno's work. 

walterl@chch.planet.co.nz 

Back to: 
Psybernet Conference and Other Resources 
Psybernet Welcome Page
Walter's Page 


From /walter@ Fri May 26 22:48:54 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Defining psychology on the Psybernet Web pages
From: Self </walter>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 22:48:54

Hi,

Here is a snippet fro the Glossary: Psychology pages.  I have 
included all the codes that make this a hypertext.  (in case 
someone is curious)

------------------------------

There is another tradition of psychology
that Psybernet draws on.  The work of <a
href="moreno.html">Jacob Levy Moreno</a>.   Here is the
definition of psyche as used in this tradition.  These are my
words about ideas I learnt in the oral tradition.

<P> <blockquote> The psyche is the web of relationships in the
here and now.  The relationship is the flow of feeling
projected into 'space'  (Moreno calls this tele, it can be
positive, negative or neutral.)  This is an interactive
phenomena as each relationship could be mutual or not.  The
relationships are with entities real and imagined.
</blockquote> <P>

You can see how this gives a whole new meaning to the term: 
tele-computing ! <P> Walter <P>

<hr size=3> Discussion on these definitions can take place in
the Psybernet Conference, if you are s subscriber to the list
you can comment right <a
href="mailto:Psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz"> here </a>.  Or you
may wish to <a href="p_conf.html"> subscribe </a>. <P>


<b> Back to: </b>  <br> 

 <a href=psybernet.html> Psybernet Welcome Page</a> 


</body>
</html>




From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Sun May 28 20:18:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Some testing
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Sun, 28 May 1995 20:18:00

Hi,

I have just installed Mailgate 023 Beta.  It seemed to go
well, but I am not sure, please let me know if there are
any problems.

I am also asking someone from that software world to sub to
the list to test one or two things, so please excuse the
test messages.

One of the problems I'd like to hear about is if, after
posting to the list, you get 'bounced' mail back.  Ie stuff
saying your mail did not get thru to fred@some place
because he does not exist etc.

No need to post info about this to the list, just let me
know at walterl@chch.planet.co.nz

Thanks.

Walter

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From /walter@ Mon May 29 12:53:37 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Opposites   (forwarded)
From: Self </walter>
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 12:53:37

Carroll Bishop has been corresponding with me about the new
alt.psychology.jung newsgroup, she gave me prtmission to post
this copy of a post she made to that group.  

walter
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANCIENTS ON OPPOSITES (posted 5/22/95)

Eric Pettifor's quote from Jung about the shadow and the
opposites reminds me of an exciting discovery I made last
year:  Heraclitus and Empedocles were talking about the
opposites even before Plato and Aristotle were born.  No
doubt this is somewhere in Jung.  It was news to me!

Heraclitus (c.540-c.480 B.C.)
  
"...According to Heraclitus, the most important thing for
men was the understanding of the _logos_, the universal
formula of things in accordance with which all natural
events occur and which all men should be able to
assimilate....An important manifestation of the
_logos_ was the underlying connection between opposites.
....The connection between opposites -- apparently the 
most divergent of all things -- meant that the world was
not just an indeterminate aggolomeration of essentially
distinct components, but a coherent and discoverable
system in which changes in one direction are ultimately
balanced by corresponding ones in the other; there is
a hidden attunement or connection between things which
means that what is apparently 'tending apart' is 
actually 'being brought together.'...God was identified
by Heraclitus with the opposites, persisting through
their changes and thus able perfectly to comprehend
their unity.  Thus God knows 'how all things are steered
through all' and is completely wise...."[Brittanica l968]
                
Empedocles (c.490-430 B.C.)

"....His philosophy combines Parmenides of Elea's theory
of being and Heraclitus's of becoming.  There is no
real creation or destruction, the four elements of
earth, air, fire and water being for ever conserved;
the eternal flux of forms and appearances arises from
the coming together and scattering of these elements.
In all such change the two elemental forces of love
and hate are operative." [Baedeker's Sicily, l993]

(Brittanica's article on Empedocles calls the two
elemental forces Love and Strife.)
                        
                  carroll bishop  (cbishop@interlog.com





From /walter@ Sun Jun 04 22:57:08 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Psyberspace Probes
From: Self </walter>
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 1995 22:57:08

I have added a web page to the Psybernet pages, this one
organises the others in a better way.  Here it is quoted in
full.  To see it in living colour and hypertextualy alive:

http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

<quote>

Psyberspace Probes 



                                Psybernet BBS 
                                    Zine 
                                   Library 
                            Key Ideas & Key People
                                    Links 
                         Classical Themes of Psyberspace 

Psybernet is something that is born of this media. It is not a
book, research, or a resource, it is not therapy, not a
community, or a mall or a plaza, a classroom, a library, a
cafe, a journey, an encyclopedia, a road show, a theatre, a
psychodrama stage, a consulting room, nor is it he meeting place
in Athens: the Agora. 

Psybernet has aspects of all of these. The focus is the
psychology of cyberspace, the search for soul in this media. It
is an experiential search. For now I have called this list of
Psybernet pages Psyberspace Probes. There is the allusion to
McLuhan who valued probes as a style of work. A probe can go
deep and reveal things, but it is not a theory, it does not
have to be right or wrong. It does not have the commitment of a
journey. A probe can be the work of a newsgroup or mailing
list. It can be a poem or an essay, or other art form. How we
make these experiences here is something we are learning. 

That is a new form: a living document pioneered rather than
written. There are links here, I want to remove them and add
them as I go along. Tuning the pages a little each day. I say
"I" though this venture is the work of many people, some active
participants. I value the probes others make, hence the many
places to post e-mail -- there is the opportunity to quote the
text from the page and respond with your experience. There will
be a fertilisation as we run groups and write in the Psybernet
Conference. 



                            The Psybernet BBS 

Psybernet Conference is gated to the Psybernet BBS. Another
door into Psybernet 




                           The Psybernet E-zine 

Infrequent at irregular intervals. Copies available to download
or read on line. 



                           The Psybernet Library 

Information Alive. A project that will grow. 



                          Key Ideas & Key People 

Short, but important lists of the ideas and people that define
this project. The people are not mentioned here because they are
the only relevant ones. Nor are they the ones to agree with,
perhaps they are the ones to come to terms with. 



                              Psybernet Links 

Pages that are related to the work and philosophy of Psybernet,
sometimes obscurely. 



                      Classical Themes of Psyberspace 

There are many themes that crop up again and again in many
forums in cyberspace, that have a relationship to the psychology
of the medium -- for example identity, gender, artificial
consciousness, the power of the medium on our consciousness.
the aim of this probe is to do the classical Aristotelian thing
and name the themes. And more than that, to have links to the
best archive on the topic we can find. The idea is to not have
to reinvent the wheel all the time. Note that this is a new page
, and there is not a lot there. Please help if you think the
idea is worth pursuing. 



walterl@chch.planet.co.nz


Back to: 

Psybernet Welcome Page 
Top of this Page . 

</quote>


all for now,

Walter 


From /walter@ Mon Jun 05 21:31:11 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Test for troy to reply to.
From: Self </walter>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 21:31:11

Hi Troy,

I trust this finds its way to your mailbox.  Look forward to 
seeing your tes reply.

I know there are a couple of the list members whose addresses 
are not working so this is a good time to test.  I usually 
eliminate them from the list after a few duds.  

One of them was my friend Bill!  Bill, I hope we have not lost
you.  I'll find you though, don't wory.

Thanks Troy,


walter



From /walter@ Mon Jun 05 22:12:34 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: "The Electronic Mirror"
From: Self </walter>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 22:12:34

Hi all,

I have been thinking a lot about the value of face to face
contact in forming Internet connections.  Hence the move to
running a workshop.  Most of the people reading this Psybernet
list are not in Christchurch so it is not all that relevant,
though we can expect workshop members to become active on this
list.  

This is a draft.  For comment only and not for distribution.  I
would appreciate feed back.

The times, fees, etc are guesses as I still need to find the
venue.

<quote>

"The Electronic Mirror"
Exploring the Internet .
A workshop.

This is a workshop for people who have Internet access or who
are about to get it.  It is designed the idea that people will
have a ppp or slip account.  

The aim is twofold.  

One To learn techniques to use the medium, to walk, navigate,
surf with ease in cyberspace.

Two To explore what is there for _you_. Notice that as you ask
this question you look as much to who you are or what your work
is as to what is out there.  Everything is out there.  What you
'find' is about you.  Hence the title of the workshop:  "The
Electronic Mirror"

The workshop will be held over three months.  There will be a
weekly evening meetings for three weeks to get things rolling. 
A day long workshop and then most of the work will be done in
cyberspace!   There will be one more evening towards the end of
the time to conclude the work.

We will learn from each other and learn how to learn.

This workshop is for people at all levels of skill.  You will
be asked to assist others and others will assist you.  

You can expect to learn:

More about the communication set up on your computer.

All about e-mail.  Guidelines on technique and style.

Newsgroups.  Filtering the news, to get messages you want.  

Mailing lists -- how to join and unjoin them.  Finding the one
for you.  There will be a mailing list for the workshop
participants, this will be where we do a lot of the work.

The World Wide Web, getting the best from it.  There will be an
opportunity to work on "The Electronic Mirror" pages, using FTP
telnet and a bit of unix HTML.

You may even know what all that means if you do not know that
yet.

Most importantly: This is a workshop about communication. In
this workshop you will meet other Internet explorers.  You may
form connections that will last a long time.


Maximum participants:  15

Fee:  $ 285.


Walter 


From troy.engel@lacosa.com Tue Jun 06 13:23:18 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Test for troy to reply to.
From: Troy Engel <troy.engel@lacosa.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 1995 18:23:18 -0700 GMT




  > Hi Troy,
  >
  > I trust this finds its way to your mailbox.  Look forward to
  > seeing your tes reply.

       The message made it A-OK, Walter.  Headers looked fine, everything 
seems spiffy. :-)

-Troy

 + IceEdit v1.40  - Unregistered Evaluation Copy
 
--
La Cosa Nostra Insane Asylum :-P
Santa Rosa, CA / (707)579-4554
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From /walter@ Fri Jun 09 13:07:58 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Out on a limb
From: Self </walter>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 13:07:58

Out on a limb.

I have been susceptible to systems of belief, method and
ideology.  There was not a time since I was about 14 when I did
not belong to one of these gangs or cults.  The first, I still
feel allegiance to:  Sydney bushwalking.  Perhaps it does not
exist any more, but there was a time when there was a group
that went 'walking' (not hiking or tramping) all over Australia
and particularly in the blue mountains near Sydney.  The best
quality gear was required, Paddy Pallin manufactured or
imported most of it.  Thirty years later I still have and am
fond of the simple japara 'Era' tent, named after a favourite
beach in the Royal National Park, one of the most beautiful
places in the world.  It was a cult.  It had its heroes and
ideology and uniforms.  Pink woollen socks and Dunlop sandshoes,
and shorts, I will slip into this mode of dress occasionally and
I feel good!  In all mountaineering there is commitment to a
utilitarianism that I find profoundly appealing.  Even with the
introduction of fashion colours, firms like Macpac retain a
commitment to quality that is necessary for wilderness
adventure. The mountains impose this functional aesthetic and it
is one of the things that makes going into the hills attractive.

I have been through a good many cults since then.  I discussed
this with friends a few nights a go and there were about 10.  I
have some allegiance to all of them still.  The most recent
cult is the 'soul' cult of Hillman and his henchman Moore.  I
got caught in this on the rebound from the psychodrama cult.  I
avidly (almost uncosciously) searched for the key tenets of the
ideology, and use them to firmly place myself on the tree of
thought.  That there is a tree of ideas that we have a place on
is itself one of the tenets of the 'soul' cult.  Other tenets
are:  polytheism, imagination is sacred, the image is the key,
we are determined, primarily because all important images and
archetypes rule our life, and the most we can do is look on in
awe.  

I have a sour note in my writing.  I think I am doing the other
highly valued activity of 'seeing through' archetypal
psychology, however, I do it with resentment and bitterness,
which is not so kosher.  

This cult, has a guru, and a lineage of gurus.  Hillman is the
main one, and he draws on his own versions I suspect of Jung,
Ficino, Parcacelcus (sp?), and many others, he is a wonderfully 
original and intelligent writer.  There is a very dense manifesto and
a printing press (Spring publications).  In all of this,
Archetypal Psychology is very like other modalities of
psychotherapy. Are they all cults?  

I am obviously attracted and repulsed by the 'soul'
perspective. I am troubled in many ways.

Firstly, because I have a major difference with the 'soul' cult
-- the reason I give it such a disparaging name -- I think they
collude with and perpetuate the culture that generates sexual
abuse, in families and professionally.  I feel fear as I write
this.  I am not articulate on this.  I want to be, I hope I can
be at some point. One comment at this stage: that James Hillman
on several occasions refers to the 'cult of the child'  and is
disparaging of Alice Miller, for her contribution of going
against the idea predominant in Freudianism (perhaps not Freud
so much) that childhood memories of sexual abuse are fantasy
wishes of the child, not memories of real events.  The soul
perspective, puts imagination in such a realm that discussion
of real events becomes impossible. 

Secondly, because I don't want to be in a cult. Can I avoid a
cult?  My discovery of a serious flaw in Archetypal Psychology
is a blessing, otherwise I'd be a devoted disciple.  I am
pulled to this cult, but repulsed as well.  You see:- troubled.

The worst trouble of all is not being on (or being able to
identify) a firm branch of the tree to be on.  Worse than being
out on a limb, there is no branch to cling to and I am falling.
One of Fay Weldon's woman characters, says of her ex husband: 
'Poor man, he is somewhere between ideologies.'  I feel just like
him.  The ex wife had no trouble with this phenomena at all! Is 
it a gender thing?

What is there between ideologies?  Cynicism. Despair.   I am
feeling that.  My remnant of Archetypal Psychology tells me that
there is no 'between'.  One is always in the grip of one
archetype or another.  Sometimes we are just ignorant of which
it is.

Troublesome too is that I feel called to explicate this
deviation from Archetypal Psychology.  Perhaps I am just a sole
traveller on a very thin limb.  Perhaps others are already
there, with the printing presses and gurus, and organisations
and I haven't found them.  Either way, how can we build such a
new limb on the tree of evolution without being just another
cult, shudder at the thought of the development of a group
called Archetypal Analysis or some such.  In fact I hate this
Psybernet thing if it is the beginning of something like that.
. . . . and perhaps it is and I can learn to love it?

As a result of discussion with friends about all of this I add
another troublesome thing, I hear them say:  Live without all
these ideologies and cults.  Be yourself.  Being rather than
doing. Who are you, not what are you?  All this reaching out to
the world via computer is just an avoidance of being.  Give up
the computer!  It certainly leads me away from family. (Apart
from Josh On !!!)  But then family is avoidance of being anyway?

Being digital!  Ha.  The avoidance of being.

Help!


Love,

Walter. 

 



.  


From /walter@ Fri Jun 09 16:17:55 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Africa
From: Self </walter>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 16:17:55

On the Psybernet WWW pages there is a probe called Psyberspace
Classical themes (or something like that).  One of the
classical themes is the relationship of the body and
cyberspace. 

There is the conventional approach that sees cyberspace as a
place of disembodied intellect.  I have resisted that view.  Of
course there is a _lot_ of disembodied intellect here, and out
there too!  But this place is as visceral as we make it.  It can
have soul!  

To my surprise Brian Eno takes the conventional perspective. 
He puts his case very well, not surprising to anyone familiar
with his work, intellect and style.

"The problem with computers is there is not enough Africa in
them.   . . .

"I ask myself, What is pissing me off about this thing?  What
is pissing me off is that it uses so little of my body.  You're
sitting there, and it is quite boring.  You've got this stupid
little mouse that requires one hand, and your eyes.  What about
the rest of you?  No African would stand for a computer like
that.  It is imprisoning."  ***

That is like saying:  How can great music come out of a little
bit of plastic like that. Africa can be in music and in words
and pictures.  I am here with you, whoever is reading this.  I
am more than eyes on screen and hand on mouse.  I am not
experiencing the readers of this conference as people
vegetating in front of screens.  We are in the movie.  In the
dance of cyberspace.  God, I would have thought Brian Eno was
there!  I think he is really.  

It is the virtuality of it all that pisses him off? Watching
the garbage collectors throw the bags on the truck, I see that
it can be done with or without Africa, it can be done by a
human robot. The soul quality when it is there, is in the body
and also on a different plane altogether.  It seeps through
from a virtual world.

Perhaps the medium of this message is making us into robots.  I
don't believe it.  We are starting to hum a merry brew here. 
We are getting a rhythm going as none have heard before.  There
is music here in cyberspace that has to be felt in the dynamics
of the life here.  We need to sharpen our virtual senses and
learn to sense anew.  

I do not believe that better physical interfaces will bring
more of Africa into the computer.  Nor will CUsee-me.  The soul
resides in the virtuality of it.  The virtuality is in sound
and text and graphics.   


For all that I like his suggestion that that to make a computer
that really works:  

"you need a design team of healthy active women with lots else
to do in their lives."  


Walter.

*** quotes from Brian Eno are from the interview in the May 95 WiReD.


From /walter@ Fri Jun 09 17:22:03 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: cyberspace psycho...
From: Self </walter>
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 1995 17:22:03

I subscribe to a free nwesgroup filtering service called SIFT, and get 
interesting mail from time to time.  here is one about a 
counselling service that is a little like the original concept 
of Psybernet that i had.  I quite like what they propose, and 
will investigate further.  The whole SIFT message is included 
below:

<quote>


Date:          Tue, 6 Jun 1995 00:39:28 -0700
From:          Net News Filter <netnews@DB.Stanford.EDU>
Subject:       cyberspace psycho...

 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 Subscription 1: cyberspace psycho...

 Article: sci.med.telemedicine.5856
 Message-ID: <HSPNET-L%95060417020261@HEALTH.STATE.NY.US>
 From: "Peter M. Weiss +1 814 863 1843" <PMW1@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
 Subject: Psychology: Counseling on the Internet by DearMarcus
 Score:  68
 First 40 lines:
  ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
    - - The original note follows - -
  From: dearmarcus@aol.com (DearMarcus)
  Newsgroups: comp.infosystems.www.announce
  Subject: Psychology: Counseling on the Internet by DearMarcus
  Followup-To: comp.infosystems.www.misc
  Date: 2 Jun 1995 16:38:05 -0700
  Sender: grant2@alfa02.medio.net
  DearMarcus -- "First in Cyberspace Counseling."
  Psychotherapists offering confidential advice via email.
  DearMarcus is a network of experienced counselors offering a
  pioneering service in psychology: confidential psychological
  advice via email. This is an innovative alternative to
  conventional office-bound psychotherapy, offering new levels of
  convenience and confidentiality to clients anywhere in the world.
  DearMarcus is also a first on the Internet. While individual
  therapists have advertised their conventional practices on the
  Internet, DearMarcus is the first to offer a completely
  electronic format for therapy. The name suggests a letter, as it
  is via email that counseling is given. This is not a substitute
  for conventional therapy, but an alternative. DearMarcus has been
  providing advice since March of 1995, and June 1 marks the
  beginning of our first national media campaign.
  For information, <URL:http://oceania.org/dearmarcus.html> or send email
  with the subject INFO to DearMarcus@AOL.com.
  Hardcopy media kits are also available for members of the print
  and broadcast media interested in profiling DearMarcus by writing
  to DearMarcus, 3725 University Ave. #205, Grand Forks, ND 58203.
  --
  _       _
   \  |  /  D E A R M A R C U S
    \ ? /
     \|/   "First in Cyberspace Counseling."
      |    DearMarcus@AOL.com
      |
      | DearMarcus provides free counseling to selected letters.
        Confidential counseling via email is available for a fee.
        All DearMarcus counselors are experienced therapists with
        at least a Master's degree in counseling or psychology.
        Send email with the subject INFO to find out more, or

 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 For help information, send email                     NetNews Filtering Server
 with word 'help' in message body                      netnews@db.stanford.edu
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



From /walter@ Sun Jun 11 21:46:08 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Four WorldViews, Four Change Strategies  (forwarded)
From: Self </walter>
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 1995 21:46:08

I have forwarded this to the Psybernet list as it is on topic 
for those interested in introducing cs and comms tech into 
organisations.  wl


<quote>


Date: Sun, 4 Jun 1995 16:23:44 -0400
Message-Id: <950604162342_23200531@aol.com>
From: <Nickols@aol.com>
To: listserv@pucc.princeton.edu, bpmi@quality.org, consulting@quality.org,
        change@mindspring.com
Cc: fnickols@ets.org
Subject: Four WorldViews, Four Change Strategies

I've been following the recent discussion on the BPR-L list regarding
object-oriented business process reengineering with a great deal of interest.
 Similar discussions regarding BPR, change, and change management have been
occurring on several other lists as well.  

If you look closely, I think you can spot -- just beneath the surface of
these discussions -- a few very basic perspectives or worldviews.  I also
believe these worldviews are often linked to some equally basic and
well-known change strategies.  You be the judge.

The first three worldviews or mindsets I've spotted in operation are these:

  first, the technicians -- rational, analytical, and process oriented

  next, the businesspeople -- power, performance, and money hold   sway here

  then, the humanists -- enlightened, empowered, and wanting the       same
for everyone else

In my own thinking, I've come to see these outlooks as tied to the three
basic change strategies presented in Bennis, Benne, and Chin's book, Planned
Change (2nd Ed).  These are as follows.

  Rational-Empirical  

  People are rational and will follow their self-interest -- once it is
    revealed to them.  Change is based on the communication of
    information and the proffering of incentives.

  Normative-Reeducative  

  People are social beings and will adhere to cultural norms and     values.
 Change is based on redefining and reinterpreting existing     norms and
values, and developing commitments to new ones.  

  Power-Coercive  

  People are basically compliant and will generally do what they are     told
or can be made to do.  Change is based on the exercise of     authority and
the imposition of sanctions.

In general, I believe businesspeople favor the power-coercive strategy,
humanists favor the normative-reeducative strategy, and techies favor the
rational-empirical strategy.

There is a fourth worldview one can detect from time to time -- the jaded and
disillusioned.  These folks are cynical and pessimistic, yet, far more than
anyone else, they desire deep, fundamental change.  This group might be
interested in a fourth change strategy, one I conceived several years ago as
a way around the shortcomings of the previous three, even when they are used
in a balanced way.
   
  Environmental-Adaptive  

  People oppose loss and disruption but they adapt readily to new
  environments.  Change is based on building a new organization and
  gradually transferring people from the old one to the new one.

In other words, you don't change the old organization, you let it die on the
vine.  Wall it off, build the new one, and then move as many people as you
can out of the old one into the new one.  This way, instead of you tackling
the task of changing their culture, they are faced with the task of adapting
to a new one.

In any case, I'd be interested in reactions to these four change strategies.
 Comments, anyone?

Fred Nickols
nickols@aol.com
fnickols@ets.org

P.S.  I am cross posting this to five lists:  BPR, BPMI, Change, Quality, and
Consulting.

--- MailGate 0.23
 
--------------------------------------------------------
Walter Logeman  Psybernet BBS walter@link.equinox.gen.nz
--------------------------------------------------------





From /walter@ Mon Jun 12 00:57:45 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: DearMarcus
From: Self </walter>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 00:57:45

Hi,

I have heard that DearMarcus, a venture into providing
counselling on the net (see earlier post) has gone.  Any one
know more than that about it?  I am very curious why they
disappeared.  

I am interested in the development of these things.  I think
there are pros and cons and many interesting questions about
services (or disservices) such as this. DearMarcus was the most
full on organised one I have seen. I expect we will see more
developments like this.  The ethics and validity are usefully
discussed on Psybernet.  One of the main issues is the charging
of fees on the net.  I think it has to happen.  If not the
advantages of the medium will never be used by professionals
who are experts in the use of the medium.  The expertise will
not develop, as all of us will need to do our day jobs in the
f2f world and simply burn out at the keyboard.

Psychotherapy itself could not develop from the forms that pre
dated it (perhaps pastoral care) until the legitimacy of the
medical profession enabled practitioners to charge a decent
fee.  It had to be doctors who developed the method, and there
in lies its strength and weakness. 

The focus for Psybernet became a lot clearer for me when I saw
the DearMarcus WWW pages.  We are _not_ a counselling or
psychotherapy service.  However I realised that the
professionals working in this field might find Psybernet of
interest.  Also Psybernet may be able to provide consultancy. 

What do you think?


Walter.




From /walter@ Mon Jun 12 02:33:26 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Evolving Orange Phenomena
From: Self </walter>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 02:33:26

Hi,

One of the things I am enjoying about the Psybernet web pages
is that they are ever so slightly different each day (because I
fiddle with them).  I have been doing this with the
descriptions of this mailing list for years. 

All the work that has gone into Psybernet might have been put
into a book, or a CD (if it were music).  But here is this
organic creation, responsive to my touch, which is all the time
being influenced by the responses of others  . . .

I also like the distinctive colour and texture of the pages  .
. .  (I think you need the latest Netscape to see that) it
gives the whole of Psybernet this distinctive colour identity 
. . .  I did not expect that it would add such a flavour to the
thing.  I have not found the right background for the wl.html
pages -- I am finding that more difficult.  More about who I am
than what I am  . . . a much more difficult question!

All the best,

Walter.



From /walter@ Mon Jun 12 13:31:07 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Joke of the Week
From: Self </walter>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 13:31:07


     
God calls Boris Yeltsin, Bill Clinton and Bill Gates into his
  office and says, "The world will end in 30 days. Go back and tell 
  your people.
     
 So, Boris Yeltsin goes to the Russian people and
  says, "I have bad news and I have worse news. The bad news is that 
  we were wrong, there is a God. The worse news is that the world 
  will end in 30 days."
     
Bill Clinton goes on TV and tells the
  American people, "I have good news and I have bad news. The good 
  news is that the basic family values upon which we have based our 
  lives on are right - there is a God. The bad news is that the 
  world will end in 30 days."
     
Bill Gates goes to his executive
  committee and says, "I have great news and I have fabulous news. 
  The great news is that even God thinks I'm important. The fabulous 
  news is that we don't have to ship Windows 95!"
     
     
--
Robert Sinton                          Telephone +64 (3) 379-1371 
Apple Sales & Support Consultant       Facsimile +64 (3) 365-1683 
ComputerLand Christchurch              52 Oxford Tce, Christchurch, NZ



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Mon Jun 12 14:39:31 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Four WorldViews, Four Change Strategies (forwarded)
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 15:39:31 +1300 (NDT)


On the subject of change, I remember my mother once went on to me about 
three types of people.
(she had just come back from some course with regards to change and 
restructuring at the organisation of her work...)

The inventors/explorers

These are the creative people who are thought to make the new ideas, to 
come up with the ideas for the new organisations that may or may not be 
formed.

The developer/colonists

These are the people who actually put the effort into making these new 
schemes work. They aren't trying to break down what other people have 
done, but are willling and keen to try out new things and make new things 
work.

The 'rest'

Can't remember what these people were called but as with most schemas, I 
guess, there was a catch all category to make the categorisation system 
work. They were the people who didn't want change, or who were resistant 
to it. The people dragged kicking and screaming into the twentieth 
century so to speak. I guess that people who were doing this course about 
change were more warmed up to change than not.

But, yeah with any change I guess that there is this other spectrum to it 
too.

However, perhaps the two spectrums are not totally perpindicular - ie. 
they might share some aspects.

I would hope that the inventor explorers would be mostly humanist, as 
this is where it is best to still start some good principles going eh? 
Also of course a lot of these people might be rationalist/scientific 
people because for these people there are less boundaries...

As to the developer/colonist people I would guess that lots of your 
aforementioned business type people would be in here? When I talked to my 
mum about it, I decided that I wanted to be one of these developer 
colonist people, because I could combine my creative and technical 
abilities. The trouble with being one of the inventor people is that, a) 
there seems to be too many of them, or at least an awful lot at the 
moment and it is hard to say which ones are cool and which ones are 
leading us down a path which I at least may not want to go down. and b) 
that if I was to be one of these creative inventor people there would be 
no way for others to judge me as to wether I was doing good stuff or not. 
I like the idea of being a colonist because at least there I know that in 
the end (and the present) I'll be judged by what I have actually acheived 
rather than by what other people think I would acheive if I ever got 
around to doing it properly.... as in theres no point being too 
revolutionary....
Am I starting to sound like a right wing fascist? What the hey, I guess I 
know where I'm coming from anyway.

So there it is.
Voila gotta fly.







From /walter@ Mon Jun 12 15:13:20 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Surviving the social shake-up?
From: Self </walter>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 15:13:20

Hi, 
More on the theme of the net and intimacy.

I am getting good mileage out of the may WiReD.  Here is a quote from an interview with Reva Basch. -- Super Searcher,  Cybrian Reva Basch is the ultimate intelligent agent.  

<blockquote>
"I'll tell you something else I have discovered -- I am less and less satisfied with the superficial social connections.  Online, especially on The Well, you really get into it, perhaps because of the conferencing software;  there is one deep, deep conversation devoted to a particular issue.  I find it affects my relationship with offline friends, especially people I haven't seen for a while.  There is a lack of depth and continuity in a lot of my relationships.  I think the whole quality of human interaction is changing.

(WiReD) So what is it about this emerging modem society that makes it more intimate.

Well, part of it, is the anonymity.  And part of it is asynchronicity -- you can compose well-crafted, thoughtful posting offline.  Also, you can deliberate, -- you don't have to respond in real time.

</blockquote>

I identify with her.  Often, when I have emerged from a moving
discussion (here online) it is easy to have that discounted as
simply having been on the computer.  Also as I warm up to
things in social conversation, I often wish people had read the
things I have read or wrote.  I half live in one space and half
in another.


In the same WiReD:  Digital Refusnick --  a man who will not
use a computer, and who _typed_ a book about it.  The problem
with online communication?

<blockquote> "The erosion of presence, the loss of immediacy of
engagement, whether person-to-person or person-to-environment. 
The opposite of presence to me is virtuality.  I see the
polarity as central to our time" Sven Birkerts

</blockquote>

I have the same response as I had to Brian Eno, who he is akin
to (only) on this subtle point of _presence_ (Africa) being to
do with the sort of interface we use.  I look into the eyes of
the people I write to, sometimes one person sometimes one after
another in a group (as now) in text, asynchronously. Do you
look back?  I bet Sven does too, while sitting at his
typewriter.  As did those ancient scribes chipping away at the
stone tablets.

Or perhaps Sven can't do that?    

Walter.



From /walter@ Mon Jun 12 17:37:15 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: 3D text.
From: Self </walter>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 17:37:15

Another quote from Brian Eno:

<blockquote> "So, you don't have any sense of a specific
identity for this piece of music.  it becomes a description of
a listening space that can be explored in different ways. 
We're back to hypertext again.  I am sure this is going to be a
very big part of the future." May 95 WiReD </blockquote>

Hypertext is a metaphor to describe what he is on about with
music.  If 
<a href="http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/mcluhan.html">
McLuhan</a> was right that the Gutenberg impact on writing
influenced how we did _everything_ else, then this wave of
technology to hit the alphabet is going to do the same.  It is
doing it to music!

But without going into the hype of what it will do to our
perception of reality and so on, it is unimaginable what it
will do to text. if you were reading this in Netscape (and you
can if you copy this to a txt file and open it in Netscape or
other browser) then you would not see the garbage around
McLuhan above, it would stand out as a clickable word --  and
take you straight to the computer in Straven Road in
Christchurch New Zealand where you see stuff about McLuhan.  I
am convinced that the next wave of word processors will be
hypertext friendly.  We can now send suits of files to each
other, all interlaced and with references to text all over the
world. (as I do here).  The new word processors will just make
it a little easier.

Like Eno says:  "It becomes a description of a . . .  space
that can be explored in different ways."  You are still reading
this, some will be off to the McLuhan page, others will have
gone on from there to the many options available.  We make our
own tracks through text.

Will people want to read text all in one direction?  Even with
novels, I hate that I can't use 'find'.

The hypertext is central to this computer age, and it will
affect our perceptions. Will it revolutionise war in the way
Gutenberg type revolutionised war?  And the question for
Psybernet is what does it do to the soul.  I recall what Daniel
wrote her earlier this year about 'wide' vs 'deep' and how wide
can be of value, and is perhaps something his generation is
more attuned to.  Look at what we have:  World _Wide_ Web.


Walter.



From /walter@ Mon Jun 12 18:23:09 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Out on a limb
From: Self </walter>
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 18:23:09

I have had some feedback on the post on cults.  I feel a bit
better.  Strange isn't it that simply naming this feeling as
'troubled' has made quite a difference.  I am still troubled,
but not so depressed!  We had a good laugh too.  The value of
hobbies: to take your mind off reality (quoting a dolls house
maker I saw on TV!).  My hobby seems to be to name the exact
shade of misery I (and others) feel.


Walter.




From mazeri@aol.com Tue Jun 13 03:54:46 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Four WorldViews, Four Change Strategies (forwarded)
From: mazeri@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 1995 11:54:46 -0400


You mentioned three groups of people who are "involved" in change strategies,
but there is a fourth group, not involved in, or passionate about, anything.
These are the indifferent majority, drifting with the tide, balking if they
have to contribute much, resentful if someone's ideas get in the way of their
comfort. At least one can get some response from the anti-anythings, and thus
may argue with them to strengthen one's own position, or change one's own, or
their positions.
  Now, what to call these indifferent masses? 
  Irene R. Mazer, Ph.D. (preferred for e-mail: mazeri@aol.com, but also now
at Dr.IRM@ix.netcom.com)



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Tue Jun 13 11:10:15 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Four WorldViews, Four Change Strategies
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 1995 12:10:15 +1300 (NDT)


Perhaps the last group should be called the huddled masses.
Their comfort is to sit and hug warm to themselves, and they balk at the 
idea of getting up and moving. The colder the wind in the place they are, 
the less they want to get up and move. To them, perhaps, any piece of 
dirt is as good as another, so why move?




From walter@ Fri Jun 16 02:36:22 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Bounced mail
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 02:36:22

Hi All,

I avoid putting technical questions in here as it can be such a
distraction to the main focus of the list. 

However, I think that any one who posts gets all the bounced
mail from dud addresses on the list sent to them.  This is
usually only one or two e-mails but has crept to six or 10
(usually to say mail has been delayed)  

If you get any of this stuff please let me know, I am working on it!

I am also contemplating letting PlaNet take over the listserv
function -- that would be about the end of the BBS!  Ahhh.  

One thing that is working now is the get command, it means you
can get a file from the Psybernet Library with a simple e-mail.
 Will write more soon.  That might be a good reason to keep the
BBS, unless of course I can find an ftp site??  Web plus a
listserv plus an ftp site does everything the BBS did and
better, the only thing is that I am afraid of the loss of
independence and overall control.  At present this venture
involves almost no politics!


Walter.







Walter 


From walter@ Fri Jun 16 15:35:22 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: (Fwd) shades of ityl-atis, the hypnotropolis...( 3D texts)
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 15:35:22

I have not browsed the site but I found the concept interesting. 

I liked the bit about the dog!

wl

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 95 15:08:18
From: FringeWare Daily <email@fringeware.com>
Subject: WWW - Interactive Web book published

Sent from: jeremias@MIT.EDU (jeremy grainger)

FYI Fringeware-folk:
cheers, Jeremy

------------------------------------------------------------------------                                        
    |     Jeremy Grainger                               jeremias@mit.edu
|||||||   Manager                                     store:617.253.5249 
|||||||   The MIT Press Bookstore              direct/vmail:617.253.0301 
|||||||   292 Main Street                              fax: 617.258.6779
     |    Cambridge MA 02142       Massachusetts Institute of Technology
        
        "Outside of a dog, a book is a (hu)man's best friend.
        Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." --Groucho Marx
------------------------------------------------------------------------


The MIT Press is pleased to announce its first World Wide Web interactive 
book, *City of Bits: Space, Place, and the Infobahn* by MIT's Dean of 
Architecture William J. Mitchell.  Published simultaneously on the Web and 
in traditional hardcover book form, *City of Bits* is a book about a new              
type of city, a largely invisible but increasingly important system                   
of virtual spaces interconnected by the emerging information superhighway. 

The World Wide Web site is up and running and the book was shipped to             
stores on May 31.

The url is http://www-mitpress.mit.edu/City_of_Bits/

We offer the electronic, hypermedia version of the book as one 
possible model for electronic publications that exploit the unique 
power of the World-Wide Web.

Not simply the ascii text of a book with the occasional hyperlink and 
a few images, *City of Bits* is a graphically rich site that has been 
enhanced with over 200 links and exceptional social and navigational 
functionality. 

The on-line version of *City of Bits* is meant to function as a 
companion to its printed counterpart.  The in-text hotlinks and the 
"Surf Sites" catalog of topic-specific links allow readers to 
customize their browsing itinerary for either casual or calculated 
exploration on the Web.

One of the most interesting features of *City of Bits* is the "Read 
and Send Comments" feature, which is an integral part of the site.  
Readers are encouraged to post comments or queries - to skywrite - 
anywhere within the text.  The postings are literally embedded in the 
text to become part of an on-going discourse in which the author will 
also participate, answering questions and elaborating on or countering 
readers' editorials.

We are not charging an entrance fee for this experimental site.  (This 
is not simply an act of charity: Advance indications are that 
publicity associated with the availability of the on-line version will 
enhance rather than diminish sales of the printed version of *City of 
Bits*.)  Our hope is that the site will provide an opportunity for our 
publishing colleagues as well as our readers to think in new ways 
about what publishing electronically can mean.

Frank Urbanowski
Director
The MIT Press
furb@mit.edu







From walter@ Fri Jun 16 16:04:50 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Psybernet Library Files by E-mail!
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 1995 16:04:50

== Psybernet Library ==

I have just arranged that all the files on the BBS can now be
obtained from the Internet. It has not been tested fully, so be
a pioneer!  

It can be done from the WWW pages :

http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/p_lib.html 

OR by e-mail 
^^^^^^^^^^

send a message to 

listserv@link.equinox.gen.nz 

In the body of the text write 

GET p_lib.txt

This will give you the list of files available.

Then you use the same process to GET any of those files.

The files may be very long, so be aware of the cost and time.
They will be in UUENCODED form and in ZIP form and you will
need to know how to handle that.  I will leave a link to good
instructions on the WWW and post them here for both PC and Mac
when I find them!  (let us all know if you know.)  


Please try this out and report problems to me and not to the
list.  I will post any new information as it comes to hand.


Walter.




From walter@ Sat Jun 17 10:33:33 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Jungian Reading Group
From: Self <walter>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 10:33:33

==Jungian Reading Group==

A reading group has been suggested in the alt.psychology.jung
newsgroup.

AION has been suggeasted as the book.

Sounds like a good idea to me.  I have been corresponding with
Michelle Seligson, mseligson@wellesley.edu, who made the
original suggestion.  Since I posted that I was interested I
have had several e-mails of others interested.    

Michelle suggested a mailing list for the group, and was
looking into this.  I offered to set one up on my system, and I
am awaiting a reply.  I think it would be best to have a group,
using a list, rather than this newsgroup.  I can have a list
running within minutes.

I have forwarded addresses of interested people to Michelle.  I
am awaiting her response, and I would like to hear from others
on all of this.  


Walter 

______________________________________________
Walter Logeman       walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/wl.html


From walter@ Sat Jun 17 16:28:30 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: City of Bits
From: Self <walter>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 16:28:30

Hi,

The City of Bits is very interesting.  It is the richest site I
have found on the WWW to date.  The reason is that it _is_ a
book , not just a 'cover of a book'.  An inspiration to my work
on the Psybernet WWW pages.  I have no where near completed my
look at the site. 

It is a book by an architect -- who else?-- about the nature of 
cyberspace. 


Here is an excerpt from sub headings in the second chapter.  It
reads like the sort of list I envisage in the Psyberspace
Classics, all the classic themes that come up in the experience
of this realm. 

             Spatial / Antispatial   
             Corporeal / Incorporeal
             Focused / Fragmented
             Synchronous / Asynchronous
             Narrowband / Broadband
             Voyeurism / Engagement
             Contiguous / Connected 
  

The book is a Psyberspace Classic -- at least it looks like it
at first glance.  It has the insight of First Steps in
Cyberspace, is digital as well as analog, and it is illustrated
with 100s of links!   And it has discussion -- which I still
have to explore.

Walter 


From walter@ Sat Jun 17 16:50:10 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: City of Bits
From: Self <walter>
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 1995 16:50:10


Hi,

The City of Bits is very interesting.  It is the richest site I
have found on the WWW to date.  The reason is that it _is_ a
book , not just a 'cover of a book'.  An inspiration to my work
on the Psybernet WWW pages.  I have no where near completed my
look at the site. 

It is a book by an architect -- who else?-- about the nature of 
cyberspace. 

Here is an excerpt from sub headings in the second chapter.  It
reads like the sort of list I envisage in the Psyberspace
Classics, all the classic themes that come up in the experience
of this realm. I can't wait to explore them:

             Spatial / Antispatial   
             Corporeal / Incorporeal
             Focused / Fragmented
             Synchronous / Asynchronous
             Narrowband / Broadband
             Voyeurism / Engagement
             Contiguous / Connected 
  

The book is a Psyberspace Classic -- at least it looks like it
at first glance.  It has the insight of First Steps in
Cyberspace, is digital as well as analog, and it is illustrated
with 100s of links!   And it has discussion -- which I still
have to explore.

Walter 


From walter@ Mon Jun 19 22:53:51 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Introduction
From: Self <walter>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 22:53:51

Hi,

I have several occasions at present where I want to introduce
myself.  Here is a general statement about me, which I hope
will lead to others reading this posting something about
themselves.  

Background

I am a psychotherapist in private practice, I have a background
in teaching and social work.  My therapeutic training is in
psychodrama and I have an interest in Jung.  I am 50. I live in
a household with my partner, Kate her daughter Rebecca (14) and
occasionally with others, at present there is a woman living
with us, Brooke, in her early 20's.  My son Daniel (aka Josh
On) (22) is on a working holiday, now in London, after living
in Japan for about a year.  I ski, rock climb and tramp
(Hiking?).  I love books, movies and tele-computing.  This
latter interest has led me to become deeply engrossed in a
project called Psybernet, exploring the soul of cyberspace.

Currently . . . 

I am enjoying the beginning of the ski season and looking
forward to a full week of skiing soon.  had a good weekend with
Kate & the teenagers.  Kate & I are getting into securafix
bindings so we can do some touring away from the piste.

I am working on an essay called Necessity and Contingency of
Metaphor in Cyberspace.  The idea is that cyberspace can only
be described through metaphor.  That we are not 'free' to
describe it in any way we like, that while it has no reality
other than though metaphor, _that_ is a powerful reality!  I
hope to contribute this to a conference in Vienna April next
year.  I am making applications for funding to make this
journey to Europe as part of my Psybernet research.

I am working on the Psybernet  WWW pages.  

I am active in the Psybernet Conference and in several other
mailing lists. Including Future Culture.

I am reading McLuhan. And about to start on 'West of the
Thirties' by Edward T. Hall.

I am listening Bob Dylan.

I am in a dilemma as to whether to upgrade the computer that
runs the BBS, or just to make do.  It involves really a bigger
decision of wether to move right out of the hardware side of
Psybernet and have an Internet provider do it all, or whether
to let this side of it build up a little here.  Suggestions
welcome!  

I am interested in memes, cults and the replication of ideas. 
It troubles me, though I am not as depressed about that as a
couple of weeks ago!  I am interested in evolution, and for
that reason watch with interest the software wars for survival
in the world.  For example I am interested in the aggressive
moves of Netscape to dominate the web and wonder if this is
Evil!

I have been challenged, frequently lately, that tele-computing
is not doing me any good, and I should cease.  I have no
intentions of doing this at present but take the challenge
seriously.  

I am awaiting with some anxiety the results of an interview I
did with the local press on the psychology of the Internet.  I
don't trust what newspapers will do with what I said.  Even if
they get it right, I am anxious about how this publicity will
affect my privacy and my work as a f2f psychotherapist.

I am planning some more renovation of the house, this time the
bathroom.

That is me!

Walter.



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Wed Jun 21 12:25:17 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Introduction; Miles' Introduction
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 13:25:17 +1300 (NDT)




    Hello,
I'm Miles Thompson, and things that are genitively related to me
ie things that are 'of' me or 'mine'  are written as being
Miles' (which is pronounced My-ill-ziz) not Miles's.
I just wanted to get that clear before we begin because its something 
special about my name that no-one knows and that I hardly ever get 
the chance to tell anyone about :)

I am a Maths student currently doing my last (honours) year at Otago 
university.
I guess I got involved with this list through my knowing Walters son 
Daniel (aka Josh On) when we did Sociology together a couple of years 
back. I am enjoying my mathematics, but I am also envious of Dan and his 
world-hopping trip. 
I am also very interested in metaphor and meaning and stuff like that. 
When doing sociology I was accused of Reiification, which means that I 
made the 'mistake' of thinking that messages have meaning 'out there' 
before anyone reads them or thinks them, ie that meaning is a physical 
thing. Nowadays I am no longer a closet 'reiificationist' and openly 
proclaim my heresy. If we get into any discussions about the sort of things
that Walter mentioned, then this will probably come up.

Here at Otago I am doing a bit of Artificial Neural Networks, which is 
another interest of mine related to above. ANN are things that were 
inspired by / intended to simulate the brain. They are quite cool but 
sometimes as hard to figure out why they think/work as real brains. 
  
I'm also doing computer graphics, and that is fun. But I think they are 
going about it the wrong way, drawing has always been a right brain type 
activity and yet it seems that currently computers can only draw things 
by knowing precisely and exactly what it is (in the 3D world) before they 
try to represent it in a 2D picture. So one of these days I'm gonna try 
and train a computer to do it in a more vague way, where it doesn't ever 
figure out what its drawing till its finished. Actually I think 3D stuff 
is more of a right brain thing to do, so... oh well, I'll think of another 
reason why I want to do it this other way.

I'm living in a flat in town (not that Dunedin is much of a metropolis) 
above a clothes shop an accountant and a music store with my girlfriend 
Louise who has recently decided that she is going to be an art gallery or 
museum conservator, which is like being a curator except you specialise 
in keeping things in good shape and repairing them and stuff like that. I 
don't know many people in Dunedin yet, but that isn't so bad because I don't 
want too many distractions from my utter geekdom of coming into the math 
department for many repeated late nights...

What else? Oh yeah I'm writing a book with a guy in America (just moved 
there) and someone who is still in christchurch its kinda science 
fiction, but we try to keep away from that side of it. More of a 
thriller/horror or espionage type novel. Main feature is that it has 
taken almost forever to write (we are nearing completion? now thank god) 
and that none of the main characters survives quite long enough to see 
the end.

Right now I'm supposed to be studying for one of my 1st Semester exams, 
which is tommorow!!!! So I think I'll leave it like that. I am greatly 
looking forward to reading about anyone else who is reading this list.
See you all later,

Miles





From crandow@chch.computerland.co.nz Wed Jun 21 17:13:30 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Introduction; Miles' Introduction
From: CHC-Dan Randow <crandow@chch.computerland.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 95 17:13:30



(Via unlicensed copy of UGATE)
     Hi, Miles
     
     Thanks for your introduction.
     
     I remember meeting you at a psychodrama evening.  We (you, Daniel and 
     I) performed the Billy Goats Gruff if I remember correctly.  I'm glad 
     to be in touch with you here.
     
     And thanks for that 'genitively' bit - reminded me of latin (long time 
     ago).  I havn't known enough Mileses (you didn't mention plurals!) to 
     run into this kind of problem.
     
     Warm wishes
     
     Dan


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Introduction; Miles' Introduction
Author:  miles (Miles Thompson) {miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz} at UUCP
Date:    21/6/95 03:30 PM


>Sender:    Psybernet Mailing List <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
>To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
     
     
     
    Hello,
I'm Miles Thompson, and things that are genitively related to me 
ie things that are 'of' me or 'mine'  are written as being 
Miles' (which is pronounced My-ill-ziz) not Miles's.
I just wanted to get that clear before we begin because its something 
special about my name that no-one knows and that I hardly ever get 
the chance to tell anyone about :)
     
I am a Maths student currently doing my last (honours) year at Otago 
university.
I guess I got involved with this list through my knowing Walters son 
Daniel (aka Josh On) when we did Sociology together a couple of years 
back. I am enjoying my mathematics, but I am also envious of Dan and his 
world-hopping trip.
I am also very interested in metaphor and meaning and stuff like that. 
When doing sociology I was accused of Reiification, which means that I 
made the 'mistake' of thinking that messages have meaning 'out there' 
before anyone reads them or thinks them, ie that meaning is a physical 
thing. Nowadays I am no longer a closet 'reiificationist' and openly
proclaim my heresy. If we get into any discussions about the sort of things 
that Walter mentioned, then this will probably come up.
     
Here at Otago I am doing a bit of Artificial Neural Networks, which is 
another interest of mine related to above. ANN are things that were 
inspired by / intended to simulate the brain. They are quite cool but 
sometimes as hard to figure out why they think/work as real brains.
     
I'm also doing computer graphics, and that is fun. But I think they are 
going about it the wrong way, drawing has always been a right brain type 
activity and yet it seems that currently computers can only draw things by 
knowing precisely and exactly what it is (in the 3D world) before they try 
to represent it in a 2D picture. So one of these days I'm gonna try and 
train a computer to do it in a more vague way, where it doesn't ever 
figure out what its drawing till its finished. Actually I think 3D stuff 
is more of a right brain thing to do, so... oh well, I'll think of another 
reason why I want to do it this other way.
     
I'm living in a flat in town (not that Dunedin is much of a metropolis) 
above a clothes shop an accountant and a music store with my girlfriend 
Louise who has recently decided that she is going to be an art gallery or 
museum conservator, which is like being a curator except you specialise 
in keeping things in good shape and repairing them and stuff like that. I
don't know many people in Dunedin yet, but that isn't so bad because I don't 
want too many distractions from my utter geekdom of coming into the math 
department for many repeated late nights...
     
What else? Oh yeah I'm writing a book with a guy in America (just moved 
there) and someone who is still in christchurch its kinda science 
fiction, but we try to keep away from that side of it. More of a 
thriller/horror or espionage type novel. Main feature is that it has 
taken almost forever to write (we are nearing completion? now thank god) 
and that none of the main characters survives quite long enough to see 
the end.
     
Right now I'm supposed to be studying for one of my 1st Semester exams, 
which is tommorow!!!! So I think I'll leave it like that. I am greatly 
looking forward to reading about anyone else who is reading this list. 
See you all later,
     
Miles



From mazeri@aol.com Thu Jun 22 12:33:44 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Change of address
From: mazeri@aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 1995 20:33:44 -0400


Walter:
  I have subscribed to a different service for the Internet, one which
provides, at least for the moment, more flexibility. Would you please change
my address in your PsyberNet list from mazeri@aol.com.us TO
dr.irm@ix.netcom.com.us? Thanks.
  Incidentally, I became a grandmother on June 19, 1995, and am looking
forward to being in Christchurch with baby, daughter, and son-in-law in
August. I hope to meet you and your colleagues then.
  Irene
  Irene R. Mazer, Ph.D. (dr.irm@ix.netcom.com.us)



From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Sat Jun 24 02:11:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Another test
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 02:11:00

 Hi,

No need to reply,

w

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From walter@ Sat Jun 24 19:20:53 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Meta Communication 
From: Self <walter>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 1995 19:20:53

Hi All,

Meta Communication 

I have been working hard on preparation for the Jungian Reading
Group AION.  The subs are flowing in, and I am pleased to be
associated with what promises to be a great project.

Remember the discussion here in Psybernet Conference on
re-packaging or re-defining?  I have been thinking about that
with regard to this new group.  I think we are on the edge here
-- re defining a reading group. 

One of the things I really like about the group is the
suggestion that there be f2f groups in tandem with the on line
group.  Now that is a good innovation. It is interesting that
this group has originated entirely in cyberspace, and we move
from there to initiating f2f meetings -- great stuff!  

I am noticing that there is a wave of enthusiasm for this
group, the like I have not seen in groups in cyberspace.  My
hunch is that it is to do with being on that edge of the
familiar, ie a reading group, and the NEW -- a group in this
medium.

I also notice that I do my Psybernet thing here:  reflect on
the meta communication processes, which is, my passion I guess.
 I have a good warm-up to the Aion group -- it promises to be
interesting.  One of the inevitable themes is the anima animus
one that we discussed here avidly in a thread called 'Nature,
Nurture or the will of the Gods'.  

I can't get hold of AION (volume 9 part ii CW) just this
minute, but I do have an excellent book on _Jung and Feminism 
-- Liberating Archetypes_  by Demaris S. Wehr which I am
studying in the meantime.  

What an adventure!


Walter.





From walter@ Mon Jun 26 15:06:02 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Resisting the Virtual life
From: Self <walter>
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 1995 15:06:02


Resisting the Virtual Life

I have just come in from some real life browsing in Scorpio
Books, and returned with:

_Resisting the Virtual Life,  The Culture and Politics of
Information_  Edited by James Brook and Iain A. Boal  City
Lights Books San Francisco 1995.

Any one read this book?

I am going to like this book!  (And love to hate it.)  On the
cover it says:

"At last a defiant, radical critique of the information
millennium . . .A burning barricade across the highway to the
total surveillance society.  -- Mike Davis, Author of _City of
Quartz_.

Any one read that?

Walter 



From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Wed Jun 28 21:23:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: ideas and objects
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:23:00

I love it that this medium is asynchronous.  This is especially true of the
BBS, where one can browse almost a years worth of Psybernet posts.  And still
reply to them.  I have just been browsing some of them and this one is
pertinant to me.  I am not replying, just re-posting it in its entirety.


Walter


Almost a year ago Daniel Logeman wrote in a message to All:



My friend John just read this out to me and I thought it
might make a nice wee post.  This is an excerpt from Tom
Robbin's "Still Life with Woodpecker"

----------------------------------------------------------
When the organizers of the Geo-Therapy Care
Fest announced their intentions, they were blizzarded by
applications from manufacturers and salespeople of
"ecologically sound" stuff who wished conncessions to peddle their New Age
wares. ...  The organizers refused. They had
no complaint against ecology fairs or the cosmic profits to
be reaped from them.  It was just that their Care Fest was
concieved to traffic, as they put it, "in ideas not
objects."

Now the line that seperates objects from ideas can be pretty twiggy, but lets
not unzip that pair of pants.  Galileo was
right to drop objects rather than ideas off of his tower,
and the Care Fest might have been wise to stick to objects,
as well.  Within the normal range of perception, the
behavior of objects can be measured and predicted.  Ignoring the possiblity
that in the wrong hands almost any object
including this book you hold, can turn up as Exhibit A in a
murder trial; ignoring, for the moment, that the far more
interesting possibility that every object might lead a
secret life, it is still safe to say that objects, as we
understand them, are relatively stable, whereas ideas are
definately unstable, they not only can be misused, they
invite misuse - and the better the idea the more volitile it is.  That's because only better ideas turn into dogma, and
it is this process whereby a fresh, stimulating, humanly
helpful idea is changed into robot dogma that is deadly...
The problem starts at the secondary level, not with the
originator or developer of the idea but the people who are
attracted by it, who adopt it, who cling to it until their
last nail breaks, and who invariably lack the overview,
flexibility, imagination,and most importantly the sense of
humour, to maintain it in the spirit in which it was
hatched.  Ideas are made by masters, dogmas by diciples, and the Buddha is
always killed on the road.
----------------------------------------------------------
--------------- Well that was afunny thing to quote wasn't
it, but don't worry I feel some distance from that text and
dont feel like a Robbins deciple.  I just thought it was an
appropriate peice.
Mmmmm, how can we keep ideas that happen to us or that we
have, fresh?  How many dogmas are there created around the
thought we have to keep this fresh? Maybe we should keep our ideas to
ourselves so that the next person to get it, has it all fresh and unused!
Anyhow Im off now.
 * Evaluation copy of Silver Xpress. Day # 70
--- xMail 1.00
 * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From rsinton%mhsgate@chch.computerland.co.nz Wed Jul 05 17:51:47 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Africa
From: rsinton%mhsgate@chch.computerland.co.nz
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 95 17:51:47



(Via unlicensed copy of UGATE)
The debate continues...

This is a little abridged from internal email conversation of last 
week between my colleague Robert Sinton and myself (starts at the 
bottom)...


===========
Robert

Yes, I know about hotwired but am still largely a WWW virgin.   Plus, 
is it interactive beyond the choice of what to look at?


I think there's more to Eno's 'Africa' that just physicality.  It 
strikes me he misses in computers the life and complexity that exists 
in a shared moment.  Perhaps the awareness of the physical, natural, 
spiritual etc environment that an African might bring to each moment 
and which we largely lack.  Like the life and texture of music made by 
a group of musicians improvising in one voice compared with an 
orchestra playing a multi-voice but highly structured and conserved 
piece. 

At any rate, I do think he's wrong.  To me we insert more than our 
brain when telecomputing - more than we usually realise in fact - our 
social being, our psyche (translates as 'spirit' in the greek, i 
believe) is made accessible to others in all sorts of ways.  Sometimes 
explicitly and intimately, other times we don't even know who will 
read the post or *how* they will.

I am enjoying this conversation with you, Robert.  It has occured to 
me that Psybernet would be a good place to have it.  It is a list 
focused on the discussion of social/psychological issues in cyberspace 
(hence the name).  The list is looked after by Walter but the 
participants are quite diverse.

How would it be for me to post this there?

I will send you something about Psybernet.

Regards

Dan

BTW - "eg Mozart & Prince, Beethoven & Kurt Cobain, etc." - 
"appealing" or "appalling"?



------------

Dan

"a new and
original Quentin Tarantino movie each week with a cast and plot 
development of your choice"
Isn't that what broadcast television is already???? :-)
Now, a new and original Wim Wenders movie every week -- that would be 
somthing interesting. Or maybe not. Humans have the capability to 
become bored with just about anything given enough of it; for a lot of 
different sorts of things, a large part of their value (monetary and 
otherwise) is tied up in their rarity.

Actuallly, the most appealing image I got from that idea was of more 
than one of these 'artificial artists' collaborating, particularly 
instantiations that could otherwise never have come together in the 
'real' world (eg Mozart & Prince, Beethoven & Kurt Cobain, etc.)

"     One day I'll be cool enough to subscribe to Wired 1st hand. 
Hopefully
before then hard copy will be obsolete.  Issues like copyright will 
fade, I expect.  Wired will distribute their articles free."
Guess what?
http://www.hotwired.com      (I think) Get surfing!

I'll have to look again at Eno's comments about Africa (perhaps if I 
read it while listening to Music for Airports?), but I think basically 
he's mistaking the computer for a physical machine, like a bicycle. It 
makes sense to have a physical, 'African' relationship with a bicycle 
(feet on pedals, hands on handlebars, bum on seat), but a computer, 
particularly when used to access cyberspace, is a mental machine. You 
don't apply your hands, you insert your brain.

Cheers,
Robert
-------------------------------------- 
Robert

BTW - read the Eno interview (or most of it).  It is good, thank you.
Neat what he says about software agents reproducing his preferences 
and composing 'his' music in collaboration with others.

To me this is like the multi-media equivalent of the possibilities 
with hypertext where each person chooses their own path through the 
resource taken a step further - the authoring of the resource.

Imagine an interactive environment where you could watch a new and 
original Quentin Tarantino movie each week with a cast and plot 
development of your choice!

One day I'll be cool enough to subscribe to Wired 1st hand. Hopefully
before then hard copy will be obsolete.  Issues like copyright will 
fade, I expect.  Wired will distribute their articles free.  They'll

make their money by offering opportunities to respond to and interact
with the authors of the articles, software agents replicating their 
point of view, other clients interested in the same topics etc.  In 
the information cosmos (as I've said before), our only hope of finding
meaning is via the realtionships (I won't bother to correct that typo)
we have with others in the environment.  To me, that is 'Africa'.

Dan

------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ From: 
CRandow@CLCHC
Subject:  Re: Computer Select
To: RSinton@MHSGATE
Date:  30 Jun 95 10:57 U


and...

--
Robert Sinton                          Telephone +64 (3) 379-1371 
Apple Sales & Support Consultant       Facsimile +64 (3) 365-1683 
ComputerLand Christchurch              52 Oxford Tce, Christchurch, NZ



From crandow@chch.computerland.co.nz Wed Jul 05 18:31:24 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Email training
From: CHC-Dan Randow <crandow@chch.computerland.co.nz>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 95 18:31:24



(Via unlicensed copy of UGATE)

Text item: Text_1

     
     Well it's finally happened - I have sold 'effective use of email' 
     training and consultancy to a client.  Now how to do it? Here's a bit 
     of an explanation of where I'm up to. I'd be delighted to hear any 
     feedback!  
     
     These are ordinary folk from an ordinary organisation and this is just 
     in-house email only so far.  My purpose is to bring them alive to the 
     potential of email for enhancing their work, particularly where they 
     work together.
     
     Part of the process will be training in the technical skills of 
     sending mail etc, part will be in using it as an effective cmn medium 
     and part will be helping them to develop a policy for the use of email 
     in the organisation.
     
     Despite having never done this before, I feel confident about the 
     policy part (well, all of it actually).  Because none of the users had 
     any input into the choice of mail system or even whether to have one, 
     I have decided to try to win their 'buy-in' to the whole idea by 
     asking them to design the policy.  Here are some sub-headings for the 
     policy:
     
     1 What Email is for
     * setting objectives for the Email system - why have it, what it will 
     achieve strategically for the organisation
     * what specifically we expect it to be used for
     _ information sharing
     _ information seeking
     _ collaborating
     _ scheduling
     * guidelines for tone/formality
     2 What Email is not for
     * use of Email not encouraged
     _ offensive material
     _ abuse/harassment
     _ distributing viruses via .exe attachments
     * will informal use be encouraged?
     * how to implement this policy
     3 How you know when Email is working for you
     * measuring the use of Email
     * measuring the use of traditional media
     * measuring productivity
     4 Security and privacy
     * who has access to messages
     * users' rights with respect to privacy
     * authentication
     
     The bit I need to suss out now, is how to run the training.  I won't 
     bore you with the list of skills to operate the software but here are 
     the 'effective use of the medium' areas:
     
     * Email writing skills
     _ length of message
     _ message structure
     _ subject line
     _ appropriate tone
     
     * managing relationships via Email
     _ avoiding offending people
     _ adding `life' to messages
     
     * linking Email to your productivity
     _ filtering/filing Email
     _ linking Email with time management
     _ linking Email with other electronic documents
     
     I have already decided that the software skills and use of medium 
     training will not be one after the other but integrated. My challenge 
     is how to create practical activities via which to present the 
     material.  They must produce hunger for the particular skills and then 
     provide an opty to practise and consolidate those skills after the 
     discovery phase.
     
     In the past, just to provide practice operating the software I have 
     used 'send a message to the person to your left - then reply' to get 
     the ball rolling.  then I suggest 'send a message to a group' and 
     things usually run themselves after that.
     
     Here there needs to be more structure and purpose.  I have pretty much 
     decided people must use their own names as mail ids (too confusing if 
     they don't).  Also, non-email communication will be 'not allowed' so 
     that at the end we all swivel around to face the centre and all the 
     talking can come out.
     
     A couple of ideas still needing developing:
     
     A role play where some 'go' a year into the future and can't quite 
     travel back but can email back to 1995 to give suggestions about how 
     to proceed given what they then know.  Those in 1995 would ask 
     questions.
     
     A team task such as solve a murder mystery.  Each person gets a clue 
     (emailed of course) and then the team must collaborate to solve the 
     mystery.  I'd suggest the participants create a group including 
     everyone in the group and send all messages to the group.
     
     * anyone know of any good murder mysteries with 5 or 6 clues? *
     
     As I look at the specific contects of the course (length of message, 
     subject line), more ideas do emerge.
     
     Write a message clearly conveying an interesting news item you heard 
     recently.  Send to the person to your left.  When you receive the 
     message reply describing a response you had when you first heard it.  
     Try quoting from the message.  Create a second reply quoting one part 
     of the message you thought particularly well communicated and saying 
     why.
     
     I'd love to hear your ideas!  Off home to my family, now.
     
     Dan



From walter@ Thu Jul 06 12:04:03 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Meta Communication 
From: Self <walter>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 12:04:03

More on Meta communication

Psybernet Conference and  AION group 

It is amazing how many subs have come in for that group, which starts on 15 July -- more than 30 now.  (e-mail me if you need the intro -- or check out:

http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/jung.html

Being a group with a special purpose like this I imagine there will be high participation, even if it is very active lurking (lets call that simply reading) -- it is a OK thing.  

This is very different from the Psybernet project, which is a _meta_ activity.  That is,  well as experiencing the communication here in cyberspace, we become conscious of it, learn about it, speak about it, and endeavour to learn how to do it well.  I like the marxiswt motto of the best way to learn about the world is to change it.  Psybernet is like that.  It is not just an academic exercise.  

So what is happening right here and now?  I am looking at this meta list and seeing a big communication space, with many unknown (about 50) subscribers.  I have no idea if they (you) are active readers of the list or if these occasional messages die on the disk.  

I imagine that meta activity like this is not as interesting initially as the _substantive_ activity, such as the reading group.  However the process of the creation of this group is of great interest to me.  I imagine as there are more people who have tried to initiate groups online and facilitate them.  More architects of cyberspace, then there will be more interest in the meta discussions. For example :

* how lists evolve from newsgroups.  

* How the phenomenology (I think of that as being the immediate
subjective or psychological experience) of lists differs from
newsgroups.

* how these groups are best facilitated.  I have offered to
facilitate the first 2 weeks of the AION group, and have very
little BTW of models to go by.  I have the model of running a
group like this in RL, but how is this different? 

* How can time be best structured in on line groups?  In RL
groups we usually have definite time slots:  eg one hr per week.
 One weekend.  I run weekend workshops in 6 3 hour blocks,
starting on the Friday night.  So on.  These structures make an
enormous difference to the quality of the group. 

*  Open or closed.  This obviously has enormous impact on the
group.  To date I have been part of 2 closed online groups, the
quality has been different to open groups.  The main thing is
that the messages are longer, the tone is more personal, and
less abstract. Generalisation and expression of universal ideas
tends to be more suitable to open lists.

Having said that the discussion of dreams in alt.psychology.jung
is deeply personal at times and belies what I am saying.  


I think it is good (at least for me) that I have this place
where it is _on topic_ to reflect on the process of group
facilitation.  I will make it known to others offering
facilitation that here there is a place to do that.  It is of
course OK to draw attention to the group process in any group,
essential in fact, however the drawing out of principles and
the training and learning of the art are best done in a
specialised group such as this.

One more word:  

Because I say this is a specialised group it does not mean that
it is a narrow one.  The broader the discussion here the fuller
the experience of Psyberspace.


Enough for mow.


Walter .



From walter@ Thu Jul 06 12:05:33 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Unsubsribe information
From: Self <walter>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 12:05:33



Hi,

To unsubscribe from this list please send a message to:

listserv@link.equinox.gen.nz

and in the body of the message write:

Unsubscribe PSYBER-L

Writing to the list itself will not do the trick.  Mail
direct to me, will result in you being sent this message.
Doing it manually is time consuming, and I am often not at
the right place to do that.

Please keep this info in a suitable place.

In the meantime, enjoy.


Walter


From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Thu Jul 06 12:08:14 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Africa
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 13:08:14 +1300 (NDT)



In response to this Africa/reality thread, this is  a thought/feeling I=20
had the other day..=CA

There must have been a time when movies were new and people worried about=
=20
them taking over in place of other human contact. I guess that has=20
happened with TV and that is no good thing.
On the other hand, I would say that there is something truly 'Africa'=20
about the way a movie is made, because it involves real people having (ok=
=20
pretending to have) real expressions, and a sort of fundamental real=20
kinesthesiology. Even though video games were once considered a real=20
breakthrough in interaction, they are not like this, because they are so=20
inhuman, so flat and dead. They do not seem alien, becuase I think they=20
have no character to relate to. But movies ARE like email, because email=20
involves real people and real everthing, in a way the essential thing,=20
the thing that gives a chant sung with real people the possibility to be=20
truly magic, and what gives movies the possibility to be deep incredibly=20
important pieces of our cultural psyche, this same thing is there with=20
email, I think.
Don't know what it is about them, its just a thought feeling I had...
Hope that you are all well! Bye
Miles






From walter@ Fri Jul 07 11:59:02 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Africa
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 11:59:02

Hi Robert and Dan!

> From:          rsinton%mhsgate@chch.computerland.co.nz The
> debate continues...
> 
> This is a little abridged from internal email conversation of last 
> week between my colleague Robert Sinton and myself (starts at the 
> bottom)...

I understand what you mean!  Read the last message first.   I
am just responding to bits here and there, will do so in
different messages (perhaps!)

> Yes, I know about hotwired but am still largely a WWW virgin.
>   Plus, is it interactive beyond the choice of what to look
> at?

It is in the sense that Miles spoke of in a message that just
arrived in Psybernet -- there are real people writing the
pages, and there are often e-mail addresses to reply to
directly from the WWW.  For example your (Dan's) essay on the
Psybernet pages _might_ get you some good comments and links. 
Here is the address for those interested:

http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/essay.html 

"Communications and Productivity in  Electronically Networked
Organisations"  

Thus the WWW is interactive in that way -- via email links. 
Thus more permanent work can be on display, and discussed by
e-mail with the author -- or the person who posted the stuff
up.  Others can make links to this essay in their web pages and
in footnotes to their essays -- also it can be passed on to
others like this in mailing lists etc.

More than that:  How would anyone in the world find me to
interact with me?  Now they can use Yahoo to search for my
name, or Jung or Psybernet -- (I am not sure any of this works
yet -- but It will -- people certainly find me somehow.)  It is
interactive because they can find me to interact -- people of
similar interests find me!  Much more than a phone book entry
they get 20 WWW pages to peruse.

I envisage kids learning how to make their pages at school and
having a parallel life in the virtual world -- teen-agers will
want to make adolescent displays etc.  When they turn 18 or so
they will wipe the lot and start again.

Is this more Africa?  More soul?  I think it sings!

Or will it just be too uncool to have a WWW page?  I doubt it. 
Look what teenagers do with the phone!  Their pages will be
noisy affairs.  And despite the high bandwidth of sound and
graphics it is free locally and quite affordable (once you have
the computer).


Walter 


From walter@ Sat Jul 08 13:04:17 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Archetypes
From: Self <walter>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 1995 13:04:17

Hi,

I have had an exchange of correspondence with Trish Grainge.  
Trish_Grainge@mindlink.bc.ca (trish grainge)
She has asked me to post it to Psybernet.

>> I am very interested in the topic of archetypes.  As a drama
>> therapist and counsellor I use costumes, make-up and video in
>> my workshops.  Participants engage in a process which leads
>> to them giving form to the images that emerge during their
>> work.  Forming a bridge between the conscious and
>> unconscious. Through the years I have been working in this
>> way I have come to recognize the aspects of the archetypal
>> energy being manifested.  Intuitively, without discussion or
>> forethought, different people at different times seek out the
>> same basic kinds of costume and music. Without knowing why,
>> they embody a 'larger than life' energy which may have been
>> previously repressed, but which inevitably leads to an
>> expanded sense of themselves in their daily life.    The
>> experience of witnessing this kind of work is profoundly
>> moving and often awe-inspiring.
>
>Yes, this is familiar and inspiring to me too.  As a
>practitioner of psychodrama I often know who someone will
>choose for a role, and how the drama goes once the theme is
>established.
>
>> I like James Hillman's view that "To go to the root of human
>> ontology, its truth, essence and nature, one must move in the
>> fictional mode and use poetic tools. The unconscious produces
>> dramas, poetic fictions, it is a theatre."

>Good quote -- right on!

>I am writing a paper that I would like to quote this in -- do
>you know where he says this?  _Healing Fiction_?

Yes. Healing Fiction, sorry I do not have the page reference.  


>I also want to ADD (or is it take issue?) to that, that at the
>root of all experience is the body.  matter is the mother of
>consciousness.  I think this matters -- especially as we could
>wipe out our human (material existence) with the push of a
>button.  I am trying to hold both these perspectives -- no easy
>matter (no pun intended).

This paragraph sent me to the bookshelves to search out Ken Wilber's 
_Spectrum of Consciousness_ (a fascinating interweaving of Western and 
Eastern approaches) because while I have a deep concern over the way we 
mistreat the earth, each other and ourselves - our seeming bent for 
destruction, I also believe that the Tao is indestructible and in all 
things.  "The process of Self's involution and evolution is viewed as a 
universal drama of the eternal play (lila, krida, dolce gioco) of hide- 
and-seek, of creation and redemption, of manifestation and dissolution, of 
anabolism and catabolism, but the sole actor in this drama is the one and 
only Self, playing an infinite number of roles (such as you and me.)without 
ceasing in the least to completely remain itself, spaceless and timeless." 
p.153.  I agree with you Walter, the challenge is to accept the dualities 
without becoming divided - to stay balanced on the razor's edge.



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Sun Jul 09 15:27:07 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Archetypes
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 16:27:07 +1300 (NDT)



I was very inspired, but in a pretty tangential way! by this exchange 
concerning achetypes. In particular I was most 
inspired to reply to the last thing that was said...
 (see the original posts for details, because I kinda messed this up a 
 bit, sorry > Trish_Grainge@mindlink.bc.ca (trish grainge).)

Anyway, you wrote something like...

>"I also want to ADD that at the root of all experience is the body.  
> matter is the mother of consciousness.. I am trying to hold both these 
> perspectives... 

 the material world perspective, and... the other, nonmaterial?.  

> ...and-seek, of creation and redemption, of manifestation and dissolution, of 
> anabolism and catabolism, but the sole actor in this drama is the one and 
> only Self, playing an infinite number of roles (such as you and me.)without 
> ceasing in the least to completely remain itself, spaceless and timeless.""

 or the many and the one?

> p.153.  I agree with you Walter, the challenge is to accept the dualities 
> without becoming divided - to stay balanced on the razor's edge.

 This all inspired me to think of time, funnily enough. I guess its all this 
 mathematics I'm doing, but anyway... 
 I was thinking that what you were kinda saying is these archetypes were
 like material, embedded meaning in some sort of concretised way, but 
 on the other hand there is this dissolution, 
 manifestation, realisation aspect; which is obviously not concrete, rather
 fluid and 'imaginary'. So which side is the one and unchangeable 
 and which side is the other?

 Silly question but.
 
 Then I thought time, One way to look at this relativity I'm doing is 
 that the mass or energy which moves gains energy as it moves faster,
 but that it can never have more speed than light. It is however 
 always moving, because it always moves through time, this is actually 
 the way the physicists do it, there is a vector for its velocity/motion 
 through time and space, and the length of the vector, ie how fast it is 
 going is worked out according to this relativity thing which says that 
 the faster you are moving relative to me, the less motion, in total, you 
 have relative me. If you do it that way, then the only things 
 that don't move are
  a. light/energy coming towards me, 
  b. light/energy moving away from  
 AND
  c. Everything else in between; On the fast side ie. everything in 
 space, as in all the room around me, like the stuff in SPACE, with 
 distance between me and it right now... the  "real" stuff 
 which is not me. It is not moving, or more accurately its motion vector 
 thingy is unknowable. So maybe its like that whole other thing at any 
 moment is ONE.
 What I mean by this is that none of the stuff which isn't affecting me 
 RIGHT NOW can be affected by me until later, and anything it does it has
 done in the past, and the bit in between, the bit where I know nothing 
 about it - because as soon as I hear that, say Daniel is going to get 
 married its affected me right? But provided I know nothing about it, it 
 cannot move, like in MY frame of reference. But that this makes sense 
 too, because if it did it would have to be either moving faster than  
 light, or not be real because it would be in "THE PAST" or "THE FUTURE"
 OR if it was real, it would be in exactly the same place as me right now.
 
 All pretty silly metaphysical wonderings really, but maybe this relates to
 your experience with the archytypes. If these archytypes were ghosts, if 
 they were ideas, souls, or gods, then where would they be? With me and 
 you right now and all the time? or out there evolving in the real 
 world?  

 Hope you are all having a wonderful day, and if you are not then I  hope it
 will go away soon.

 Miles
  




From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Sun Jul 09 15:38:31 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Archetypes
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 16:38:31 +1300 (NDT)



Here is something that my friend Jon wrote to me on the same 
subject, tell me I'm bad for posting it without asking, but its a poem.


>From MISC328@csc.canterbury.ac.nz Sun Jun  4 22:05:21 1995
>Date: Fri, 02 Jun 1995 01:14:41 +1300
>From: JONATHAN ALPERS <MISC328@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
>To: miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz
>Subject: Re: Zen
>
>Did you say...
>

>>"From:    IN%"miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz"  "Miles Thompson"  1-JUN-1995 
>>11:34:31.50 To:    IN%"MISC328@csc.canterbury.ac.nz"  "JONATHAN ALPERS"
>>CC:    
>>Subj:    Zen
>>Return-path: <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
>>Received: from elrond.otago.ac.nz ("port 2281"@elrond.otago.ac.nz)
>> by csc.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V4.3-13 #7295)
>> id <01HR6UMK2R34IGA5HW@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>; Thu, 01 Jun 1995 11:23:13 
>>Received: from rabbit.otago.ac.nz by elrond.otago.ac.nz with SMTP id AA18147
>> (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for <@elrond.otago.ac.nz:MISC328@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz>)
>> ; Thu, 1 Jun 1995 11:25:12 +1200
>>Received: by rabbit.otago.ac.nz (920330.SGI/921111.SGI.AUTO)
>> for @elrond.otago.ac.nz:MISC328@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz id AA10576; Thu,
>> 1 Jun 95 12:36:49 +1300
>>Date: Thu, 01 Jun 1995 12:36:37 +1300 (NDT)
>>From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
>>Subject: Zen
>>In-reply-to: <01HR4R6F4VZMIF0S0W@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
>>To: JONATHAN ALPERS <MISC328@csc.canterbury.ac.nz>
>>Message-id: <Pine.3.89.9506011229.A10572-0100000@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
>>MIME-version: 1.0
>>Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>>Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT"?

>
>I thought so. Here's a koan instead:
>
>Shuzan held out his short staff and said: "If you call this a short 
>staff, you
>oppose its reality. If you do not call it a short staff, you ignore the 
>fact. Now what do you wish to call this?"
>
>It cannot be expressed with words and it cannot be expressed without 
>words. Now say quickly what it is.
>
>Holding out the short staff,
>He gave an order of life or death.
>Positive and negative interwoven,
>Even Buddhas and patriarchs cannot escape this attack.
>
>See you soon(er than you think), J.




From walter@ Mon Jul 10 02:21:45 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Description of Psybernet
From: Self <walter>
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 02:21:45

The following may help some people understand what this list is 
about.  Please forward this to places where you think it will be 
of some interest.

Walter 

-=-=-=-=  Psybernet Conference (Mailing List)  -=-=-=-=  

We aim to experience and explore how we are affected by the new
electronic media. Psybernet Conference facilitates the conscious
experience of the psyche as it evolves in cyberspace.

Topics include: 

The art of leadership in communication networks.  The impact on
organisations of tele-computing.  Creating people-enhancing
environments in cyberspace.  Gender issues in cyberspace. 
Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal
identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  

The range of discussion here is very broad, and this is
desirable as it enables us to learn about our experience of the
medium.  Announcements about Psybernet Workshops and groups
will be made in this Conference from time to time. The
Conference is facilitated by Walter Logeman, no censorship or
editing has taken place, however discussion of how the
Conference is facilitated are integral to the Conference's
purpose. The Conference is archived on the BBS, and Internet
users can get these from the Psybernet Library, see the WWW
pages for details.


The Psybernet Conference is available as an Echo to BBSes.

To join the Psybernet Conference, (Mailing List), send a
message to:  

listserv@link.equinox.gen.nz, in the body of the text write:   

sub PSYBER-L

Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive a
welcome message by return mail.  This can take up to 2 hours on
this system.

     ------------------== Contact points  ==--------------
     Psybernet, Walter Logeman  (Sysop)
     Bulletin Board:            +64-3-365-6876
     Fax                              64-3-377-1207
     Answerphone             +64-3-377-1206
     Fidonet:                          3:770/270
     Internet                          walterl@chch.planet.co.nz 
     WWW http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html
     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     To see a world in a grain of sand
     And a heaven in a wild flower,
     Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
     And eternity in an hour.

                                      Auguries of Innocence,
                                  William Blake  1757-1827
     ----------------------------------------------------------------



From trish_grainge@mindlink.bc.ca Mon Jul 10 16:41:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Archetypes
From: trish_grainge@mindlink.bc.ca
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 95 21:41 PDT


>To: Trish Grainge <Trish_Grainge@mindlink.bc.ca>
>Date: Sat, 08 Jul 95 23:35:23 -0700
>From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
>Subject: Archetypes
>
>To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
>
>
>
>I was very inspired, but in a pretty tangential way! by this exchange
>concerning achetypes. In particular I was most
>inspired to reply to the last thing that was said...
> (see the original posts for details, because I kinda messed this up a
> bit, sorry > Trish_Grainge@mindlink.bc.ca (trish grainge).)
>
>Anyway, you wrote something like...
>
>>"I also want to ADD that at the root of all experience is the body.
>> matter is the mother of consciousness.. I am trying to hold both these
>> perspectives...
>
> the material world perspective, and... the other, nonmaterial?.
>
>> ...and-seek, of creation and redemption, of manifestation and dissolution,
>of
>> anabolism and catabolism, but the sole actor in this drama is the one and
>> only Self, playing an infinite number of roles (such as you and me.)without
>> ceasing in the least to completely remain itself, spaceless and timeless.""
>
> or the many and the one?
>
>> p.153.  I agree with you Walter, the challenge is to accept the dualities
>> without becoming divided - to stay balanced on the razor's edge.
>
> This all inspired me to think of time, funnily enough. I guess its all this
> mathematics I'm doing, but anyway...
> I was thinking that what you were kinda saying is these archetypes were
> like material, embedded meaning in some sort of concretised way, but
> on the other hand there is this dissolution,
> manifestation, realisation aspect; which is obviously not concrete, rather
> fluid and 'imaginary'. So which side is the one and unchangeable
> and which side is the other?
>
> Silly question but.
>
> Then I thought time, One way to look at this relativity I'm doing is
> that the mass or energy which moves gains energy as it moves faster,
> but that it can never have more speed than light. It is however
> always moving, because it always moves through time, this is actually
> the way the physicists do it, there is a vector for its velocity/motion
> through time and space, and the length of the vector, ie how fast it is
> going is worked out according to this relativity thing which says that
> the faster you are moving relative to me, the less motion, in total, you
> have relative me. If you do it that way, then the only things
> that don't move are
>  a. light/energy coming towards me,
>  b. light/energy moving away from
> AND
>  c. Everything else in between; On the fast side ie. everything in
> space, as in all the room around me, like the stuff in SPACE, with
> distance between me and it right now... the  "real" stuff
> which is not me. It is not moving, or more accurately its motion vector
> thingy is unknowable. So maybe its like that whole other thing at any
> moment is ONE.
> What I mean by this is that none of the stuff which isn't affecting me
> RIGHT NOW can be affected by me until later, and anything it does it has
> done in the past, and the bit in between, the bit where I know nothing
> about it - because as soon as I hear that, say Daniel is going to get
> married its affected me right? But provided I know nothing about it, it
> cannot move, like in MY frame of reference. But that this makes sense
> too, because if it did it would have to be either moving faster than
> light, or not be real because it would be in "THE PAST" or "THE FUTURE"
> OR if it was real, it would be in exactly the same place as me right now.
>
> All pretty silly metaphysical wonderings really, but maybe this relates to
> your experience with the archytypes. If these archytypes were ghosts, if
> they were ideas, souls, or gods, then where would they be? With me and
> you right now and all the time? or out there evolving in the real
> world?
>
> Hope you are all having a wonderful day, and if you are not then I  hope it
> will go away soon.
>
> Miles
>
>
>




From walter@ Thu Jul 13 22:46:24 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: The Psybernet Library
From: Self <walter>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 22:46:24

Hi,

=== Library ===

The Psybernet BBS now has a new larger hard disk, it can store
many more files.  These are available to you as a user on this
list.  Please explore this option.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
To get a file send a message to:

listserv@link.equinox.gen.nz

In the body of the text write:   (this is all that should be in
the message)

GET <file name>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

The first message will need to be:

GET  p_lib.txt

as this one has a list of all the files.


It is Uuencoded -- you will need to be able to unencode it,
some mail readers do this automatically!  Please report
difficulties to this list, so we can sort them out together.

Walter 


From walter@ Sat Jul 15 20:56:16 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Re: Email training
From: Self <walter>
Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 20:56:16

Dear Dan,

Good news about getting this off the ground!  We have spoken
about this quite a bit, and I wish you well as it happens
_very_ soon I believe!  You might just get this mail before You
teach the group! 

> These are ordinary folk from an ordinary organisation and this is just 
> in-house email only so far.  My purpose is to bring them alive to the 
> potential of email for enhancing their work, particularly where they 
> work together.

Tat is a great purpose.  Hopefully they will come alive to
e-mail.  Have I told you the story:  My father said to me when
I was about 8;  Once you learn to read then it is like curtains
part and whole new worlds open up.  It worked.  That was all it
took to get me motivated to read.  And he was right.  The world
is even richer than the movies, because I make it in part with
my imagination.  

Who was it I had that conversation with the other day?  That
some writers are too 'directive' they do not provide good
jumping boards for the imagination, they force you too see it
all their way.

> Part of the process will be training in the technical skills of 
> sending mail etc, part will be in using it as an effective cmn medium 
> and part will be helping them to develop a policy for the use of email 
> in the organisation.

Opening up the next lot of curtains for them is the main thing.
 I guess that it works best for those who can already read well
and enjoy text.  Who like letters.  Or could e-mail be a
gateway to the world of reading?  It could! It could!   I am
thinking that because I think of e-mail as primarily a group
reading process.  Combining psychodrama with reading as it were
-- a powerful combination.  

One thing they wont have with just inhouse mail is the
hypertext links.  That is like another opening of a realm, as
if we had not gone far enough with these means of imagination.

I know I am raving on _way_ beyond what these folks are
thinking about, but I think it all applies to them.   Perhaps
it is not so much psychodrama but more a task centred group,
OK, but e-mail is the doorway to amazing cooperation and
collaboration, especially with progs like Notes, which I would
love to explore -- anyone experienced with that?

> Despite having never done this before, I feel confident about the 
> policy part (well, all of it actually).  Because none of the users had 
> any input into the choice of mail system or even whether to have one, 
> I have decided to try to win their 'buy-in' to the whole idea by 
> asking them to design the policy.  Here are some sub-headings for the 
> policy:

I think that is great, I hope it works, I think it will because
of _you_ really Dan!  I have spoken to you about the warm-up I
think is inherent in the word 'policy'.  Somehow I am too much
of an artist to like that word.  It would be like saying to
Picasso:  What is your policy on painting?  Philosophy would be
better, but too far out of the culture.  Plan?  Guidelines? 
E-mail . . . .   Ah,  companies are so clean and shiny -- they
have mission statements, and policy, and reports.  Dry isn't
it?  I suppose it is a 'form' in its own right.  Perhaps
'Policy' is just right.  After all, it would look wrong to put
aluminium doors on the cathedral.  We do need to harmonise our
styles.

> 1 What Email is for
> * setting objectives for the Email system - why have it, what it will 
[comprehensive list snipped]

I noticed much later and have spoken to you about the private
mail and group mail phenomena.  I would start them with groups,
it is such a delight to get three or four people all muddled up
in a discussion.  I have a friend who says:  three people
together make up one enlightened being.  It must be right. 
What I see is that 'complexity and chaos' set in. 
Predicability goes out the door.  Life becomes interesting.
> 
> Here there needs to be more structure and purpose.


What did you come up with in the end?


Thanks for sharing your plan.  I hope the competition don't
pinch it.  

I hope you let us know how it goes.


Walter.



From walter@ Mon Jul 17 23:01:31 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Lost in Psyberspace?
From: Self <walter>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 23:01:31

Got the July Wired in the mail today.  (Dawkins on the front) 
I the for many reasons.  One reason I am interested in Wired is
that it is always a source of stimulation of my Psybernet
interests.  Makes me think, what is the psychology of this --
what is _this_! (holding it up in disgust) telling us about our
collective soul!  

This month there is a short article in _Ideas Fortes_ 
pertinent to the Psybernet themes:

_In Search of the Grail_  By Richard Thieme.  Subheading:  "The
Net is an imagined territory with a real spirituality in it."  
 I was attracted to it, mainly because he addresses the themes
we have been speaking of here, and the things I am interested
in.   He has the awareness to say:     ". . . more importantly,
after the game, I am organized differently.  I experience
myself differently.  I frame things differently. "

This is as the result of playing a game, but it is common to
all experience of hypertext, he goes on:

"  our interaction with computers has given birth to new forms
of religious community.

"The interactive quest, a symbolic journey in search of a
grail, is the dominant genre in cyberspace, . . .  this quest
begins when we cross the threshold of this world to the magical
realm of our inner growth;  we leave the world of rational
logic, and enter the underworld with its shadows, caverns, and
mazes.  In this underground world we speak in the language of
riddles and puzzles, the language of dreams and the
unconscious.    We change shapes, undergo transformations.  The
quest in all of its forms is a spiritual journey framed by
archetypal symbols of good and evil."


For all that:  I find this an unsatisfying description for
reasons hard to put my finger on.  I might come back to this.

I liked this bit:  "Marianne Moore wrote that poems are
imaginary gardens with real toads in them."  

Walter.



From ctpost@aol.com Tue Jul 18 00:48:37 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: all that's clean and shiny
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 08:48:37 -0400


Walter,

>>>Ah,  companies are so clean and shiny -- they
have mission statements, and policy, and reports.  Dry isn't
it?  I suppose it is a 'form' in its own right.  Perhaps
'Policy' is just right.  After all, it would look wrong to put
aluminium doors on the cathedral.  We do need to harmonise our
styles.<<<

This made me think of an off-the-record comment once made by the president of
the company that employees me:  communication is our business; it is not our
philosophy. For all that is clean and shiny about companies, they thrive on
ambiguity. Policy is preferable to philosophy because policy can change
tomorrow but philosophy suggests a long-term commitment to values and
standards that evolve very slowly if at all. Yet policy sounds solid and
philosophy doesn't. There's the desired ambiguity. 

Thx,
Ron



From CTpost@aol.com Tue Jul 18 00:48:37 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: all that's clean and shiny
From: CTpost@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 08:48:37 -0400

Walter,

>>>Ah,  companies are so clean and shiny -- they
have mission statements, and policy, and reports.  Dry isn't
it?  I suppose it is a 'form' in its own right.  Perhaps
'Policy' is just right.  After all, it would look wrong to put
aluminium doors on the cathedral.  We do need to harmonise our
styles.<<<

This made me think of an off-the-record comment once made by the president of
the company that employees me:  communication is our business; it is not our
philosophy. For all that is clean and shiny about companies, they thrive on
ambiguity. Policy is preferable to philosophy because policy can change
tomorrow but philosophy suggests a long-term commitment to values and
standards that evolve very slowly if at all. Yet policy sounds solid and
philosophy doesn't. There's the desired ambiguity. 

Thx,
Ron



From a.groves@telos.org Tue Jul 18 16:31:52 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Lost in Psyberspace?
From: a.groves@telos.org
Date: 17 Jul 95 23:31:52 -0500



 > wa> "  our interaction with computers has given birth to new forms
 > wa> of religious community.

 > wa> "The interactive quest, a symbolic journey in search of a
 > wa> grail, is the dominant genre in cyberspace, . . .  this quest
 > wa> begins when we cross the threshold of this world to the magical
 > wa> realm of our inner growth;  we leave the world of rational
 > wa> logic, and enter the underworld with its shadows, caverns, and
 > wa> mazes.  In this underground world we speak in the language of
 > wa> riddles and puzzles, the language of dreams and the
 > wa> unconscious.    We change shapes, undergo transformations.  The
 > wa> quest in all of its forms is a spiritual journey framed by
 > wa> archetypal symbols of good and evil."

 > wa> For all that:  I find this an unsatisfying description for
 > wa> reasons hard to put my finger on.  I might come back to this.
 > wa> Walter.
 wa> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

     Hi:  Walter and all...

     I wanted to say that I liked this.  There is some measure of truth in it.

      In some ways the net lends itself to the internal reality of people in
ways
 that other media does not.

       If there is a fault with this... it is perhaps that, as with many
things, one aspect of something is taken to be the whole... 

     I suppose that for many of us... we are not accustomed to having ~any~
 language to speak of personal internal realities.  If we begin with vague
 forms... well and fine.  After awhile, you either learn more appropriate
 language - or begin to understand a new language, newly available... 

     It ~may~ be that when vidphone stuff catches up and/or when video
conference and video on line gets a little more useful... that this "internal
reality" will move more to the back again, in leiu of visuals... but for now...
one must use the "medium" of imagination more to communicate with.  

     If one defines 'spiritual' as internal (that is quite resonably on of the
takes on that word) then this medium allows for the one person's internal
reality to communicate with another's.  
     If often seems that 'spiritual' in other contexts use external forms so
heavily that rather than facilitating...(sp?) they are blocking.  


 Thanks... 




From walter@ Tue Jul 18 20:34:19 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Re: Archetypes
From: Self <walter>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 20:34:19

Dear Miles

>  (see the original posts for details, because I kinda messed
>  this up a bit, sorry > Trish_Grainge@mindlink.bc.ca (trish
>  grainge).)
> 
> Anyway, you wrote something like...
> 
> >"I also want to ADD that at the root of all experience is the
> > body, matter is the mother of consciousness.  I am trying to hold
> > both these perspectives... 

Trish said some pertinent things but it was me that added the
bit above.

>  the material world perspective, and... the other,
>  nonmaterial?.  

I think so.  Although in walking that edge it might be that
there is an interleaving and interdependence of these two.  The
Marxists were against what they called mechanical materialism
(billiard ball materialism)  and advocated dialectical
materialism which attributed to matter inner contradictions
which fuelled transformation of the matter into its opposite.  

In the case of goods we make, they carry an informational
component, and meaning attributed to the product, which is ??? 
VW make ''Rolling Stone" cars.  What about Batman Burgers.  


Now we are onto something Trish said, or quoted?:

> > ...and-seek, of creation and redemption, of manifestation and
> > dissolution, of anabolism and catabolism, but the sole actor
> > in this drama is the one and only Self, playing an infinite
> > number of roles (such as you and me.) without ceasing in the
> > least to completely remain itself, spaceless and timeless.""
> 
>  or the many and the one?  (Miles)
> 
> > p.153.  I agree with you Walter, the challenge is to accept
> > the dualities without becoming divided - to stay balanced on
> > the razor's edge.

Then Miles said:

>  This all inspired me to think of time, funnily enough. I guess
>  its all this mathematics I'm doing, but anyway... I was
>  thinking that what you were kinda saying is these archetypes
>  were like material, embedded meaning in some sort of
>  concretised way, but on the other hand there is this
>  dissolution, manifestation, realisation aspect; which is
>  obviously not concrete, rather fluid and 'imaginary'. So which
>  side is the one and unchangeable and which side is the other?

Exactly:  are we the dreamers or the dreamt.  What I say is we
are the dreamers.  The computers & the modems and the wires are
the mother of the net.   There is no "Rolling Stone" VW without
a car.  Though as I said the other day somewhere it would be
fun to market a label without a product, that is taking the
thing to absurdity where it would produce infinite riches.

>  All pretty silly metaphysical wonderings really, but maybe
>  this relates to your experience with the archetypes. If these
>  archetypes were ghosts, if they were ideas, souls, or gods,
>  then where would they be? With me and you right now and all
>  the time? or out there evolving in the real world?  

I wrote in Future Culture today that they inhabited cyberspace
before we did.  But of course that is a metaphor!  Yet, these
metaphors 'fit' or they don't.  For example 'free spirit'  fits
but 'free soul' does not.  Why?  Because we are making abstract
statements about definite experiences.


enuf


Walter 



From walter@ Tue Jul 18 20:54:46 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Infonomics 
From: Self <walter>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 20:54:46

Infonomics

In the same July Wired is an article by Esther Dyson in
Intellectual property.  

It is excellent.  It is a reprint from Release 1  ( December
94).  (a phenomena I am curious about)  and it reflects many of
the things that have come up here in Psybernet before that on
the subject.  

Relationship will be (is) what is worth money on the net, not
information as such!

These things are relevant to Psybernet and the soul of
qualities here because:

1.  The infonomics here is perhaps influencing the class --
social -- cultural basis of the world.  Dyson's article implies
that very convincingly.

2.  That basis will affect the soul.  It does grow out of the
material world.  Infonomics is giving birth to archetypal
structures in cyberspace.   (Should they be called neotypal? I
don't think so, they form a bedrock as soon as they are born,
and you have to be a (virtual) archaeologist, digging in
cyberspace to find them). 


Walter, sounding dogmatic feeling tentative.






From tate@dream.net Wed Jul 19 12:21:23 1995
To: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Infonomics
From: TransMuTate <tate@dream.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 18:21:23 -0600 (MDT)



> Infonomics

I admit that I have the issue of wired in which this appears, though I 
have not as yet read it.  I had planned to at one point, though I put it 
on the back burner and never quite got around to it.

The transition toward the information economy terrifies me somewhat; 
though more than this, it greatly confuses me, since I have heard many 
reports on the current level of techno-awareness among business 
owners,.and that this level is remarkably low (and what is an economy, 
most notably an american economy without business).  Hence it seems to me 
that there is a small number of people, mostly advertising agencies, 
which are promoting not only their advanced technological products, but 
are, in effect, selling us the future, what it will look like, how it 
will hang upon us.  The confusion comes in at the level where I open up 
my latest copy of Wired magazine and see one ad after another claiming 
that if I "am not on the bus", then I will be left behind.  To sell the 
future, one must make it appear as though it is already in existence; 
that the technological promises being made have already come into being, 
that it is only the one that is apprehending the ad which has been left 
behind.  But, like I said, this technological awareness is not nearly as 
widespread as it is presented.

Maybe advertisers have always lived in a virtual world.

The other concern that I have in regards to the infofounded future 
relates to the future of writing, and of art in a more general sense.  If 
things are to continue as they are now, with more and more people self 
publishing on the web or on mailing lists, and with visual artists 
setting up virtual galleries for the display of their craft, then what 
will happen to writing, music, art, etc as a means of enterring into an 
economic exchange with culture.  I am not trying to suggest that making 
money is the goal of making art.  In fact, my own presense here would 
seem to contradict such a proposition, if I were to in fact, make it.  
But I have noticed that the majority of people who work at nine to fives, 
even with hopes of creating art outside of the sturcture of work, to use 
a paycheck in the service of furthering an art form, cannot maintain this 
for long, that they get work out by the work world and are either 
funneled into advertising or forsake art altogether.  The fear I have is 
of the possible disappearance of "artist" as an active part of the 
population due to the inflated availability of art, decomodified.  I 
realized, midway through the last sentence, that these fears have been 
stated in a slightly different form before; that of the fear of the New 
Medium *replacing* the Old, taking priority over it the Old, and hence 
squeezxing the old out of existence.  This argument has already been 
countered, disproved, since writing itself is still in existence, and 
has survived through various shifts in the predominant form of social 
discourse (the telegram, the radio, film, television.  No, what I am 
talking about here is not the disappearence of one medium or another, but 
of the feasibility of creating art with that medium as a way of 
sustaining oneself, the hobby-ization of art.  This is already the 
direction which culture is taking us.  I have a job, and then I have a 
life.  What I regret is the possibility that closing the gap between 
these two things, between work and pleasure will become more and more 
difficult in the future.

tate



From tate@dream.net Wed Jul 19 12:21:23 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Infonomics
From: TransMuTate <tate@dream.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 18:21:23 -0600 (MDT)




> Infonomics

I admit that I have the issue of wired in which this appears, though I 
have not as yet read it.  I had planned to at one point, though I put it 
on the back burner and never quite got around to it.

The transition toward the information economy terrifies me somewhat; 
though more than this, it greatly confuses me, since I have heard many 
reports on the current level of techno-awareness among business 
owners,.and that this level is remarkably low (and what is an economy, 
most notably an american economy without business).  Hence it seems to me 
that there is a small number of people, mostly advertising agencies, 
which are promoting not only their advanced technological products, but 
are, in effect, selling us the future, what it will look like, how it 
will hang upon us.  The confusion comes in at the level where I open up 
my latest copy of Wired magazine and see one ad after another claiming 
that if I "am not on the bus", then I will be left behind.  To sell the 
future, one must make it appear as though it is already in existence; 
that the technological promises being made have already come into being, 
that it is only the one that is apprehending the ad which has been left 
behind.  But, like I said, this technological awareness is not nearly as 
widespread as it is presented.

Maybe advertisers have always lived in a virtual world.

The other concern that I have in regards to the infofounded future 
relates to the future of writing, and of art in a more general sense.  If 
things are to continue as they are now, with more and more people self 
publishing on the web or on mailing lists, and with visual artists 
setting up virtual galleries for the display of their craft, then what 
will happen to writing, music, art, etc as a means of enterring into an 
economic exchange with culture.  I am not trying to suggest that making 
money is the goal of making art.  In fact, my own presense here would 
seem to contradict such a proposition, if I were to in fact, make it.  
But I have noticed that the majority of people who work at nine to fives, 
even with hopes of creating art outside of the sturcture of work, to use 
a paycheck in the service of furthering an art form, cannot maintain this 
for long, that they get work out by the work world and are either 
funneled into advertising or forsake art altogether.  The fear I have is 
of the possible disappearance of "artist" as an active part of the 
population due to the inflated availability of art, decomodified.  I 
realized, midway through the last sentence, that these fears have been 
stated in a slightly different form before; that of the fear of the New 
Medium *replacing* the Old, taking priority over it the Old, and hence 
squeezxing the old out of existence.  This argument has already been 
countered, disproved, since writing itself is still in existence, and 
has survived through various shifts in the predominant form of social 
discourse (the telegram, the radio, film, television.  No, what I am 
talking about here is not the disappearence of one medium or another, but 
of the feasibility of creating art with that medium as a way of 
sustaining oneself, the hobby-ization of art.  This is already the 
direction which culture is taking us.  I have a job, and then I have a 
life.  What I regret is the possibility that closing the gap between 
these two things, between work and pleasure will become more and more 
difficult in the future.

tate



From rshuman@usa1.com Wed Jul 19 17:04:01 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Infonomics
From: rshuman@usa1.com
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 00:04:01 -0500


>> Infonomics
>
>I admit that I have the issue of wired in which this appears, though I
>have not as yet read it.  I had planned to at one point, though I put it
>on the back burner and never quite got around to it.
>
>The transition toward the information economy terrifies me somewhat;
>though more than this, it greatly confuses me, since I have heard many
>reports on the current level of techno-awareness among business
>owners,.and that this level is remarkably low (and what is an economy,
>most notably an american economy without business).  Hence it seems to me
>that there is a small number of people, mostly advertising agencies,
>which are promoting not only their advanced technological products, but
>are, in effect, selling us the future, what it will look like, how it
>will hang upon us.  The confusion comes in at the level where I open up
>my latest copy of Wired magazine and see one ad after another claiming
>that if I "am not on the bus", then I will be left behind.  To sell the
>future, one must make it appear as though it is already in existence;
>that the technological promises being made have already come into being,
>that it is only the one that is apprehending the ad which has been left
>behind.  But, like I said, this technological awareness is not nearly as
>widespread as it is presented.
>
>Maybe advertisers have always lived in a virtual world.
>
>The other concern that I have in regards to the infofounded future
>relates to the future of writing, and of art in a more general sense.  If
>things are to continue as they are now, with more and more people self
>publishing on the web or on mailing lists, and with visual artists
>setting up virtual galleries for the display of their craft, then what
>will happen to writing, music, art, etc as a means of enterring into an
>economic exchange with culture.  I am not trying to suggest that making
>money is the goal of making art.  In fact, my own presense here would
>seem to contradict such a proposition, if I were to in fact, make it.
>But I have noticed that the majority of people who work at nine to fives,
>even with hopes of creating art outside of the sturcture of work, to use
>a paycheck in the service of furthering an art form, cannot maintain this
>for long, that they get work out by the work world and are either
>funneled into advertising or forsake art altogether.  The fear I have is
>of the possible disappearance of "artist" as an active part of the
>population due to the inflated availability of art, decomodified.  I
>realized, midway through the last sentence, that these fears have been
>stated in a slightly different form before; that of the fear of the New
>Medium *replacing* the Old, taking priority over it the Old, and hence
>squeezxing the old out of existence.  This argument has already been
>countered, disproved, since writing itself is still in existence, and
>has survived through various shifts in the predominant form of social
>discourse (the telegram, the radio, film, television.  No, what I am
>talking about here is not the disappearence of one medium or another, but
>of the feasibility of creating art with that medium as a way of
>sustaining oneself, the hobby-ization of art.  This is already the
>direction which culture is taking us.  I have a job, and then I have a
>life.  What I regret is the possibility that closing the gap between
>these two things, between work and pleasure will become more and more
>difficult in the future.
>
>tate

hi. maybe we'll be like the mythical bali where art and everyday life are
indistinguishable (see Dewey,J: Art as Experience). Look at web pages,
hypermedia, etc., non-artists creating their own experiences for other
people to experience and so on and so on...
bob shuman (also e-mail: shumans@aol.com
homepage: http://www.marblehead.com/business/001/





From walter@ Thu Jul 20 00:16:44 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Re: Infonomics
From: Self <walter>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 00:16:44

Hi Bob,

> hi. maybe we'll be like the mythical bali where art and
> everyday life are indistinguishable (see Dewey,J: Art as
> Experience). Look at web pages, hypermedia, etc., non-artists
> creating their own experiences for other people to experience
> and so on and so on... bob shuman (also e-mail: shumans@aol.com
> homepage: http://www.marblehead.com/business/001/

Interesting point, and it is happening.  What about the point Tate 
made that we cant sustain creativity in addition to paid 
employment? -- I am finding that.  

Walter 




From rshuman@usa1.com Thu Jul 20 17:27:26 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Infonomics
From: rshuman@usa1.com
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 00:27:26 -0500


>Hi Bob,
>
>> hi. maybe we'll be like the mythical bali where art and
>> everyday life are indistinguishable (see Dewey,J: Art as
>> Experience). Look at web pages, hypermedia, etc., non-artists
>> creating their own experiences for other people to experience
>> and so on and so on... bob shuman (also e-mail: shumans@aol.com
>> homepage: http://www.marblehead.com/business/001/
>
>Interesting point, and it is happening.  What about the point Tate
>made that we cant sustain creativity in addition to paid
>employment? -- I am finding that.
>
>Walter
>
>
>_____________________________________________________
>Walter Logeman              walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
>http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

hi, walter...well, there have been few times in world when any person had
the luxury of patronage to just "do" art...maybe, one must adopt the
alchemical principle--the symptom is the source of the cure. I can
empathize. I'm writing a book for Basic Books ms. due 4/96. I work
full-time, some evenings. It's hard to create and sustain a writing rhythm.
But the book is re: psychology and psychotherapy of chronic illness, so my
difficulties (and successes, satisfactions) in some way mirror the subject
I'm writing about. Jung's "creative illness" was the source of much of his
great opus. Perhaps the issue is not one of "sustaining" creativity, but
"being" creative despite difficulties. James Joyce said the least important
thing about him was his blindness. Wonderful book--Philip Sandblom,
Creativity and Illness. The river runs deep. If you want to make something,
do it. The creative impulse, like sex, finds a way. No matter their
disability or illness, people will find a way to enjoy the pleasure of
bodies if they want to. Good book--Art and Fear (I forget authors,
published in Santa Barbara). You are creative, look at your page. Your
letter. I'm writing this at 12:30 AM. Good luck





From walter@ Fri Jul 21 19:18:14 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Re: Lost in Psyberspace?
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 19:18:14

Dear   a.groves@telos.org

Subject:       Lost in Psyberspace?

Thanks for your response to the bit I wrote about: In Search of
the Grail  from Wired, I'm glad you did because it is worthy of
discussion here and what you say is interesting.  I will
respond in some depth and also leave the quote from the Richard
Thieme's (RT) article here for easy reference.

RT> "  our interaction with computers has given birth to new forms
RT> of religious community.

RT> "The interactive quest, a symbolic journey in search of a
RT> grail, is the dominant genre in cyberspace, . . .  this quest
RT> begins when we cross the threshold of this world to the magical
RT> realm of our inner growth;  we leave the world of rational
RT> logic, and enter the underworld with its shadows, caverns, and
RT> mazes.  In this underground world we speak in the language of
RT> riddles and puzzles, the language of dreams and the
RT> unconscious.    We change shapes, undergo transformations.  The
RT> quest in all of its forms is a spiritual journey framed by
RT> archetypal symbols of good and evil."

WL> For all that:  I find this an unsatisfying description for
WL> reasons hard to put my finger on.  I might come back to this.
WL> Walter.

 > I wanted to say that I liked this.  There is some measure of
 > truth in it.
 > 
 > In some ways the net lends itself to the internal reality of
 > people in ways that other media does not.

True, and I like to explore just _how_ this happens.  The net
"lends" itself to the internal reality.  Not a bad way of
putting it.  It is because of the lack of visuals as you say. 
It is to do with our (perhaps temporary) enforced use of words,
that we enter into the realms of the imagination.  It is this
very use words that makes cyberspace so like the psyche itself.
 We can only speak of it in metaphor (and perhaps symbol -- I
am not familiar with the distinction, but would love someone to
elaborate).  

 > If there is a fault with this... it is perhaps that, as with
 > many things, one aspect of something is taken to be the
 > whole...

Especially when he seems to equate the whole of cyberspace and
the whole of the inner life (or psyche) with the grail myth. 
He is right in a way, to identify --almost all-- adventure,
hypertext games as of this genre, but it is a mere nook of the
psyche, and also of cyberspace, even if it is one of the first
to be colonised  (what a spooky metaphor that is -- but also
one frequently employed for cyberspace eg in this way:

Rheingold, Howard, _The Virtual Community, Homesteading on the
Electronic Frontier._  Addidon - Wesley. (1993)

and also the EFF  (Electronic Frontier Foundation) 

I think that I am getting clearer what my misgiving is -- it is
that he is good at pointing out that there is a psychological
dimension, but he has a perspective on it that I find limiting.
 Just as the 'frontier' metaphor is limiting. 

 > I suppose that for many of us... we are not accustomed to
 > having ~any~ language to speak of personal internal realities. 
 > If we begin with vague forms... well and fine.  After awhile,
 > you either learn more appropriate language - or begin to
 > understand a new language, newly available... 

Of course, well put.  I am not going against RT or what you
like about him, I like it too, I want to tune in a little
deeper, and yearn for others who do this.  

Ah, that word:  deeper.  It has been a theme with me from the
first days I began to write in this list.  RT does come close
to that 'shadows and caverns'.  Somehow the psyche does not
seem well served with Dungeons and Dragons, although that is so
close to the Greek myths that do seem to serve well.  I also
think modern myths such as Batman, superman, Michael Jackson
etc serve the psyche.  So it is this teasing out of the virtual
space that I enjoy -- I like to know how others see cyberspace,
and we are exploring it here rather well I think.  

I also have a hunch that we will agree about the quality of
cyberspace, that as we describe it,  our words will either fit
or not fit.  

 > It ~may~ be that when videophone stuff catches up and/or when
 > video conference and video on line gets a little more useful...
 > that this "internal reality" will move more to the back again,
 > in lieu of visuals... but for now... one must use the "medium"
 > of imagination more to communicate with.  

I think it is so wonderful that we can do this in groups like
this that we will never give it up, just as there are still
people who read books, listen to the radio, play the flute,
despite of all new media.

 > If one defines 'spiritual' as internal (that is quite reasonably
 > on of the takes on that word) then this medium allows for the
 > one person's internal reality to communicate with another's.  

Yes.  It opens a dimension of communication that is distinct
from any other.  Spiritual is one word for it.  I like to think
of it as _psychological_  in that older tradition of relating
to the _soul_.  One of my favourite bits of writing by James
Hillman (a post Jungian) is where he makes the distinction
between soul and spirit.  I think it is useful, and just good
to notice how these words evoke different aspects of the
'inner' worlds and also of cyberspace.  

 > If
 > often seems that 'spiritual' in other contexts use external
 > forms so heavily that rather than facilitating...(sp?) they are
 > blocking.  

What were you thinking of churches and the like?

 > Thanks... 

Thank you.  I hope we can keep this discussion going, and that
I don't sound too dogmatic.  I really am just exploring, and
interested in your response and that of others.


Walter 


NOTE:  To get the full text of the article from Wired, Send a
message to:

info-rama@wired.com

in the text write:

GET  3.07/departments/thieme.if

30 seconds later it arrives, as an e-mail.




From ctpost@aol.com Sat Jul 22 01:29:33 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Re Infonomics
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:29:33 -0400


Walter asks,

>>>What about the point Tate 
made that we cant sustain creativity in addition to paid 
employment? -- I am finding that. <<<

In a capitalist economy, the artist, somehow, finds a way to be
self-employed, and that means being market-driven enough so that enough money
comes in to keep soul and body together, as well as to promote the artistic
enterprise itself. I suppose this is a model for any business. The question
is, when does one's art become so compromised by the marketplace that it is
no longer art or a pleasure.  It's a life's work to find the answer to this
question. Maybe that's the point.

Ron

Walter 


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman              walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


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Subject: Infonomics




From CTpost@aol.com Sun Jul 23 01:45:36 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re Lost in Psyberspace?
From: CTpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 09:45:36 -0400

Walter,

>>>
 "The interactive quest, a symbolic journey in search of a
grail, is the dominant genre in cyberspace, . . .
<<<


This is encouraging. Many months ago, I was reading an essay by someone who
felt that the problem with computer visionaries is that their imagination is
informed by Star Trek instead of material much richer in symbolic,
archetypic, spiritual possibilities and cultural history, such as the Holy
Grail. It may have been in _The Metaphysics of Virtual Reality_.
  
Thx,
Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Sun Jul 23 01:45:36 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Re Lost in Psyberspace?
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 09:45:36 -0400


Walter,

>>>
 "The interactive quest, a symbolic journey in search of a
grail, is the dominant genre in cyberspace, . . .
<<<


This is encouraging. Many months ago, I was reading an essay by someone who
felt that the problem with computer visionaries is that their imagination is
informed by Star Trek instead of material much richer in symbolic,
archetypic, spiritual possibilities and cultural history, such as the Holy
Grail. It may have been in _The Metaphysics of Virtual Reality_.
  
Thx,
Ron



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Sun Jul 23 15:10:19 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Re Lost in Psyberspace?
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 16:10:19 +1300 (NDT)



> >>>
>  "The interactive quest, a symbolic journey in search of a
> grail, is the dominant genre in cyberspace, . . .
> <<<
> This is encouraging. Many months ago, I was reading an essay by someone who
> felt that the problem with computer visionaries is that their imagination is
> informed by Star Trek instead of material much richer in symbolic,
> archetypic, spiritual possibilities and cultural history, such as the Holy
> Grail. It may have been in _The Metaphysics of Virtual Reality_.  
> Thx,
> Ron

I appreciate your point, and agree that Star Trek itself is unusually 
devoid of traditional symbolic archetype and myth, but I would think that
it is/was somewhat of an exception in that regard.
Wasn't there something about early science fiction and fantasy writers, 
(such as the creators of Batman/Superman) explicitly or implicitly 
retelling/using Greek/Roman myth and legend in their work? In the old days
I think the art was perhaps thought so 'low' and 'popular' that using such 
things for story lines would save the cranial effort of the writers for 
greater things someday when they could get jobs as 'real' writers. Maybe.
They pretty soon ran out of inspiration in that direction and started in 
on the Indian myths (such as Kali death god etc) and Gaelic legends, 
throwing bits of pacific cult in for good measure. JRR Tolkien spent 
enormous time studying the ancient folklore and pagan legends before 
coming up with his world of Elves, Goblins and Orcs which of course was 
then an inspiration for Dungeons and Dragons.
In terms of its being SF I would say what makes Star Trek exceptional is 
the extent to which it was informed by TVNetwork psyche, emphasising the 
ideas of cleanliness good military discipline/policy and generally 
working in the mold of the old fashioned colonisation myth. (to the extent 
of using british navy bosuns whistles left right and centre). I would say 
that computer geekdom is much steeped in traditional myths and symbols 
(particularly pagan) through their games of magic and D&D. Perhaps this 
is particularly appealing to them because of the lack of historical 
tradition that goes with the art of computers? 
It is often stated that computers and the ideas about them live in a void 
of thought, and that is very interesting. But on 
the other hand, I don't think this could be said to hold true of sciene 
fiction or fantasy.

Miles




From A.Groves@telos.org Tue Jul 25 00:51:38 1995
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: (Fwd) Lost in Psyberspace
From: A.Groves@telos.org (A Groves)
Date: 24 Jul 95 07:51:38 -0500


    From:  A Groves                   Submitted:  21 Jul 95  06:57:01
 Subject:  Lost in Psyberspace?          Status:  Private
Received:  ** New Message Read! **        Group:  NETMAIL (2)

FROM-ADDRESS: 1:249/201.1182
 
 wa> Subject: Lost in Psyberspace?

     Walter:  It is 7:00 in the morning Friday July 19?th  I wanted to respond
to this - if only in snippets and "first takes" at your comments...
......................................

Subject:       Lost in Psyberspace?

 >RT> "  our interaction with computers has given birth to new forms
 >RT> of religious community.

 >RT> "The interactive quest, a symbolic journey in search of a
 >RT> grail, is the dominant genre in cyberspace, . . .  this quest
 >RT> begins when we cross the threshold of this world to the magical
 >RT> realm of our inner growth;  we leave the world of rational
 >RT> logic, and enter the underworld with its shadows, caverns, and
 >RT> mazes.  In this underground world we speak in the language of
 >RT> riddles and puzzles, the language of dreams and the
 >RT> unconscious.    We change shapes, undergo transformations.  The
 >RT> quest in all of its forms is a spiritual journey framed by
 >RT> archetypal symbols of good and evil."

     I am not personally familiar with the grail myth but in most casual way. 
I hear it being used for many things and have no idea whether the use in these
instances is doing violence to the myth or not... but... for me, to use the
'grail' motif... the issue here is that we are searching for ourselves, either
collectively or individually.  Yes, personal development.  Yes, personal
growth.  But above all - ourselves.  What, who, ~am~ I?  What are you(pl) and
what are we together?  
     In our politcal systems, communism tried to force us to be "us" to the
detriment of the individual.  Capitalism tries to force us to be individuals
to the detriment of the group... and still the question begs... who are we?
     Politics - as with many of the other facades we use to try and facilitate
corporate(social) life - holds us at arms length even at its highest moments
and the real "us" whatever that is... sits inside with lonely eyes wondering
if it will ever be allowed to come into the world. 
     The net has provided a medium where many - all across the globe can
relate "inside to inside".  

     I understand that having said that - we, those in cyberspace, are a
technical elite.  Few of the world's people have access.  

     Who is the man sitting on a Tibetan mountain side tending yaks because
they are the sustenance for him and his family?  Who is the woman who cleans
houses in a lower section of a large city and never really sees beyond that? 
These people, though part of us, are unknown to us.  
     And who am I?  Am I who I think I am?  I am I the mirror image I get from
those around me?  Is there part of me that is farther back or deeper [there's
your word again] down?

 >WL> For all that:  I find this an unsatisfying description for
 >WL> reasons hard to put my finger on.  I might come back to this.
 >WL> Walter.

 >> I wanted to say that I liked this.  There is some measure of
 >> truth in it.
 >>
 >> In some ways the net lends itself to the internal reality of
 >> people in ways that other media does not.

 wa> True, and I like to explore just _how_ this happens.  The net
 wa> "lends" itself to the internal reality.  Not a bad way of
 wa> putting it.  It is because of the lack of visuals as you say.
 wa> It is to do with our (perhaps temporary) enforced use of words,
 wa> that we enter into the realms of the imagination.  It is this
 wa> very use words that makes cyberspace so like the psyche itself.
 wa> We can only speak of it in metaphor (and perhaps symbol -- I
 wa> am not familiar with the distinction, but would love someone to
 wa> elaborate). 

     I think the the net is, at best, another form of communication - another
tool.  You mention "realms of imagination"...  It seems to me that this is not
as esoteric as we might like to think or have been taught.  If I put my hand
on your face... have I touched you?  People touch in subways all the time
[especially in Tokyo?] but have they touched each other.  If I write, smial or
email, have I touched you?  I think that it is the imagination that allows us
to touch at all.  Even in sexual contact - often touted to be the pinnacle of
human contact - a lack of the presence of imagination means that the act is
all but meaningless, just another event, incident, occurrance in the myriad
that occur every day, indistinguishable from  others...
     You mention the difference between psychological and spiritual.  I
suppose that that Augustinian dichotomy nature/grace comes in here.  I feel
that it is only another paragdym... but they have value and are useful.  Just
as nature is down here and grace is up there...  my soul, mind/emotion/will,
is the touch point to nature, horizontally; whereas my spirit is the touch
point to the spiritual dimension.  I realize that one cannot push this too
far.  In reality the spiritual probably "contains" the physical...  
     But my question here is... On how many levels do we communicate.  Do we
simply,[as in only] touch minds?  Do we touch in spirit as well?  I realize
that in "discussing" with you that I feel "linked" to you although I have
never seen you.  Your mail came in and I "knew" who you were... Expand this to
the net and the global communication of many in an open forum where people
meet to "discuss", in whatever manner that my be... and suddenly we need to
ask large questions about 'spirit' and who we are.  
     Am I being added to by this.. or am I loosing something?  Am I being
augmented or diminished?  Are we growing or dying?  Are we adding or taking
away.    
     I suppose it because of this scale, if nothing else..., that we need to
see these questions as spiritual because they have to do with the totality of
who we are, rather then concerning themselves with aspects or parts of us.

...
=-=-=-=-=




From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Sat Jul 29 13:21:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: A little test -- ignore
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 13:21:00

Hi,


No need to reply

Walter

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From walter@ Sat Jul 29 16:24:41 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: == walter's journal ==
From: Self <walter>
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 16:24:41

Hi all,

I have had 2 days at the computer working on the bounced mail
problem.  I don't think it is fixed, but I mailing list curious
-- please let me know what is happening if you post to this
Conference.

I do feel satisfied as I have upgraded the MailGate software to
version 25, it works, and I am closer to fixing a lot of
things.  Like the digest function and other small things. 
Clovis, if you read this you might like to try posting
something and also setting the various set options.  I would
appreciate that.  

I am deeply immersed in the Aion reading group.  It is one of
the fullest experiences I have had on the Internet and in the
BBS --I would recommend anyone interested in Psybernet join
that list -- though only if you actually want to, and have the
space and time to do the reading -- not only of the book but of
the group.  It is also the area where I am experiencing the
deepest foray into Psyberspace -- though I feel most anchored
to this Psybernet Conference, and expect to bring back learning
from Aion to here.  

As I watch this Psybernet space I am curious -- puzzled.  Who
reads this -- and what is in it for you?  I know that clearly
with respect to Daniel now Josh On.  Also Ron and Dan R. 
Miles.  Bill? are you there?  I know you like the connection,
in your transforming life, and don't even need to read it all--
perhaps just knowing we are here?  Stuart i know where you are 
at.  Is anyone reading this on the BBS, or on other BBSes?

There are 55 people subbed -- quite a few new ones --  so it
would be good to have some introductions -- and some input on
the nature and purpose of this Conference -- perhaps from
someone other than me.  55 is about steady, but many have
unsubbed, which I can understand -- it is not for everyone.  I
don't mind -- just now, though I might grow to dislike it,
pouring my self out into this Conference -- myself, and my
explorations into Psyberspace I think.  I'd like to know what
people value in that -- is it just the personal stuff?  getting
an insight into me or our task?  As I say, I am curious.

I have not ''encouraged'' people to write, fearful of creating
pressure, I value readers of the Conference -- but I am asking
now:-  if you are a reader, could you let the Conference know
that and also just what has been of interest to you, even if it
is utterly unrelated to the description of the Conference.  

OK, I have a report to write!  Recommendations to a small
organisation re their communication environment -- that is
something I wont do again, having got the Psybernet focus much
more clearly in place.  It has been a great learning experience
though -- just wish I had the rept done!  I would then be able
to straight to AION and also to a paper I am writing which is
now called ''Psyberspace''.  It will be in full hypertext, ala
the ''City of Bits" on the web.  Report first.

One other project which is a goer:  the f2f Internet
exploration group.  It may still take a while, as I am flat out
with my usual work -- but it seems relevant to this Psybernet
project, and I am going to stick to the knitting.

Warm wishes to you all!

Walter.
















From walter@ Sat Jul 29 16:36:16 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Description of this Conference
From: Self <walter>
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 16:36:16

Here is the description -- updated today.  What do you make of 
all this?  Is it of interest?  Is this meta communication a bit 
premature?  If so ordinary communication is OK.  Also --  
wanted, some assistance with development of the www pages, email 
me.

Walter 

 -=-=-=-=  Psybernet Conference (Mailing List)  -=-=-=-= 

We aim to experience and explore how we are effected by the new
electronic media. Psybernet Conference facilitates the conscious
experience of the psyche as it evolves in cyberspace.

Topics include: 

The art of leadership in communication networks.  The impact on
organisations of tele-computing.  Creating people-enhancing
environments in cyberspace.  Gender issues in cyberspace. 
Imagination, metaphors, archetypes, dreams, myths, personal
identity, psychotherapy, and the unconscious.  How these
psychological phenomena relate to cyberspace. 

The range of discussion here is very broad, and this is
desirable as it enables us to learn about our experience of the
medium.  It is a place where the development of relationships
around these interests is an important part of the work. 
Announcements about Psybernet Workshops and groups will be made
in this Conference from time to time. The Conference is
facilitated by Walter Logeman, no censorship or editing has
taken place, however discussion of how the Conference is
facilitated are integral to the Conference's purpose. The
Conference is archived on the BBS, and Internet users can get
these from the Psybernet Library, see the WWW pages for
details.


The Psybernet Conference is available as an Echo to BBSes.

To join the Psybernet Conference, (Mailing List), send a message to:  

listserv@link.equinox.gen.nz, in the body of the text write:   

sub PSYBER-L

Once you have subscribed to the list, you will receive a
welcome message by return mail.  This can take up to 2 hours on
this system.

To leave the list follow the instructions above and replace sub with unsub. 

     ------------------== Contact points  ==--------------
     Psybernet, Walter Logeman  (Sysop)
     Bulletin Board:            +64-3-365-6876
     Fax                              64-3-377-1207
     Answerphone             +64-3-377-1206
     Fidonet:                          3:770/270
     Internet                          walterl@chch.planet.co.nz 
     WWW http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html
     -----------------------------------------------------------------

     To see a world in a grain of sand
     And a heaven in a wild flower,
     Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
     And eternity in an hour.

                                      Auguries of Innocence,
                                  William Blake  1757-1827
     ----------------------------------------------------------------





From ctpost@aol.com Sun Jul 30 09:20:44 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: ==walter's journal==
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 17:20:44 -0400


Walter,

>>>>>
if you are a reader, could you let the Conference know
that and also just what has been of interest to you, even if it
is utterly unrelated to the description of the Conference.  
<<<<<

I am more a reader than a participant and have never, I think, really
introduced myself. My full name is Ron Scheer. I am employed as a writer and
information design analyst for a communications consultant based in New York.
My background includes university teaching (writing, literature, film). I am
53, married and have 2 grown children. I currently live in Connecticut and am
expecting to be transferred to the Los Angeles office of the company I work
for. (Previously, I spent 2 years working in the UK offices.) My other
interests include playwriting and, more recently, screenwriting. I have an
avid interest in music of most kinds: blues, world music, jazz, ambient,
post-classical and classical. 

I have no professional connection with the field of psychotherapy. I follow
this list at the invitation of Walter, who first encountered me, I think, on
another list, FutureCulture. This and FC are the only lists I currently
subscribe to. I have been active on the Net for 12-15 months and use it
mostly for email.

I often feel underqualified to contribute to this list. I stick around
primarily because it offers a refuge from the youth-oriented hurly burly of
what I think of as mainstream Net communications. My own issues have to do
with depression, gender, spiritual faith, and the integrity of people in
extreme circumstances (e.g., political prisoners). 

>>>>
OK, I have a report to write!  Recommendations to a small
organisation re their communication environment -- that is
something I wont do again, having got the Psybernet focus much
more clearly in place.
<<<<

Did I miss something? Why won't you do this again?

Thx,
Ron



From trish_grainge@mindlink.bc.ca Sun Jul 30 09:25:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: UN-SUB
From: trish_grainge@mindlink.bc.ca
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 95 14:25 PDT


UN-SUBSCRIBE




From bgarrett@baste.magibox.net Mon Jul 31 02:07:02 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: == walter's journal ==/intro
From: bgarrett@baste.magibox.net
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 09:07:02 -0500


Hi Walter,

I've been getting the Psybernet list as well as the Aion list, and like you
Aion has been getting most of my attention. I haven't quite figured out
what the Psyber-list is all about yet, but I guess it's time we got it
going!

By way of introduction, my name is Bill Garrett, and I'm a self-taught
"student" of Jung and things Jungian. I'm also a Macintosh nut and an
Internet addict. I have loved the study of myth, dreams and the mind since
I was little. I'm 39, play jazz drums (none of that wild-man stuff in the
woods), preside over an online-only Mac user group, and help administer a
bbs in Memphis, TN.

My alter ego, whom I am compelled to send out into the world of matter,
manages a small title insurance company in Mississippi, a State which has
mythological connotations of its own.

Regards,

Bill

+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Bill Garrett  (INTJ)
bgarrett@baste.magibox.net

I'll have a Monday with extra nuts, please.





From walter@ Mon Jul 31 19:54:22 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Re: Hi, AION and Librarianship
From: Self <walter>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:54:22

Hi Jennifer and all,

Good to have you here.  I was a little sarcastic calling it 
 Walter's Journal   it was that i had the sense of being 
here on my own!  However the response has been pleasant.  

It also made me think that it is quite something to develop a
sense of group and cooperation on the basis of these flimsy
threads in the ether -- yet it is happening and can be done.  

I think I also discounted the fact that there is in fact an
interesting thread alive here in Psybernet on the grail myth and
cyberspace and I want to get back to that -- the AION group is
drawing a lot of my attention.  However this list is HOME.

> I subscribed two days ago.  I studied Jung and the Post
> Jungians as an undergrad.  I am currently studing Librarianship
> at Ballarat University, Victoria, Australia.  My interest in
> subscribing to the group is mainly to maintain my familiarity
> with Jung's theories.  I one day I hope to do further study on
> Jungian thought, particularly archetypal theory.

This is an excellent reason to be on this list, and I hope you
find it useful.  Your studies as a Librarian interest me.  This
list in some way looks at the impact of tele-computing on our
psyche, hence the link to Jung.  However this must also be a hot
topic in librarianship.  what was a world of books is now
becoming linked to the ether.  Can you tell us more about how
this affects librarians  -- some who call themselves Cyberians?

> How do I get on to the AION?

the subbing information and archives of the list are on WWW: 

http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/jung.html 

However the original announcement follows:


Walter.

------------------------------

Announcement 

=== Jungian Reading Group === 
=== AION, by Carl G. Jung === 

This is to announce a mailing list for the purpose of 
studying AION by Jung. This group will commence on the 15 
July, please subscribe before then. 

Proposals on the alt.psychology.jung newsgroup have led to 
this announcement. It is the result of my consultation with
Michelle Seligson, mseligson@wellesley.edu, who made the initial
proposal and Carroll Bishop, cbishop@interlog.com who has been
active in setting up alt.psychology.jung, [unmoderated newsgroup]
and who suggested AION as the text. 

It has been suggested that we rotate the facilitation of 
the group, allocating a chapter to people who are willing. 
I am offering to do that for the first two weeks, to get 
things started.  This will give the group a time structure, which
can be altered in the light of experience in the group. 

The mailing list will operate from the Psybernet BBS in 
Christchurch New Zealand.  To join the group that will be 
studying Aion, send a message to: 

listserv@link.equinox.gen.nz 

In the text write: 

sub AION  

Please put nothing else in the message as it only goes to a
machine and you will confuse it.  Once you have subscribed to the
list, you will receive a welcome message by return mail. This can
take up to 2 hours on this system. 

(To unsubscribe follow the procedure above replacing 'sub' 
with 'unsub') 

Please contact me at walterl@chch.planet.co.nz if you have 
comments or questions. 


Walter Logeman




From ll4jms1@fs2.ballarat.edu.au Mon Jul 31 22:42:37 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Walter's journal
From: JENNIFER SWEENEY <ll4jms1@fs2.ballarat.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:42:37 GMT+1000


To Walter and others on the psyber-l link.

I subscribed two days ago.  I studied Jung and the Post Jungians as 
an undergrad.  I am currently studing Librarianship at Ballarat 
University, Victoria, Australia.  My interest in subscribing to the 
group is mainly to maintain my familiarity with Jung's theories.  I 
one day I hope to do further study on Jungian thought, particularly 
archetypal theory.

How do I get on to the AION?

Cheerio
Jenny Sweeney



From walter@ Thu Aug 03 15:40:25 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Building Connections
From: Self <walter>
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 15:40:25

Bill and people on the Psybernet Conference mailing list,

> I haven't quite figured out what the Psyber-list is all about
> yet, but I guess it's time we got it going!

It is a complex idea, but I am really convinced there is a
place for this list.  This medium has a relationship to the
psyche -- and we can experience and explore that.  We can also
look at how we work within this medium.

For example I am conscious of that our whole experience of the
medium is coloured by the software in many ways.  Some people
get this message in a folder -- for others it is possible only
to read it on line -- for others it is part of a long list of
mail.  Thus our experience of this ''Conference" is unique.  I
have 400 hundred messages that I have ready access to from
Psybernet -- plus another 2000 on archive.  For others I am
sure, this is their first message -- (welcome).  So our history
in the media is important.

Even though our experience differs -- there is a Conference
here.  There is something that we can get to know more fully,
and that we are creating.  In all this I think it is very like
the psyche.  

This is just an example, of what Psybernet is about.  I guess
it is very wide ranging.

Here are some topics that could be raised here:

Can psychotherapy be done in cyberspace?

Net Archetypes.

Intruders in newsgroups.

The quality of recovery forums on the net.

Dreams interpretation in groups.

Psychological aspects of Administration of lists.  (I will write something about this soon!)

Gender and tele-computing 

Superhiway and other Metaphors.

McLuhan. 


The purpose of these explorations is much like the work of any
classical psychologist such as Jung, to describe the phenomena,
to learn to see and live with the soul of cyberspace.  The
experiential exploration of the phenomena is the place to
start.  In the Aion group we are busy at work, doing the task
of the group.  Here we can reflect on the process -- also on
how that type of work my be enhanced.  For example should the
group be closed or open?  Some of us have experienced small
closed groups of invited members -- that is a totally different
experience.

I hope this opens up some of the possibilities of Psybernet --
I notice that there have been a lot of new subscribers in the
last few days  --  10 or so.  Brining the list to about 60.  It
would be good to have personal introductions.  Personal matters
relate fully to the theme of the Conference so building
connections here is a good place to start.

Thanks for the intro Bill.

> By way of introduction, my name is Bill Garrett, and I'm a
> self-taught "student" of Jung and things Jungian. I'm also a
> Macintosh nut and an Internet addict. I have loved the study of
> myth, dreams and the mind since I was little. I'm 39, play jazz
> drums (none of that wild-man stuff in the woods), preside over
> an online-only Mac user group, and help administer a BBS in
> Memphis, TN.

It sounds like you and Psybernet are a good match.  I hope we
can make some good things happen.  


Walter 


From walter@ Thu Aug 03 23:05:39 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Re: Building Connections
From: Self <walter>
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 1995 23:05:39

Bill and people on the Psybernet Conference mailing list,

> I haven't quite figured out what the Psyber-list is all about
> yet, but I guess it's time we got it going!

It is a complex idea, but I am really convinced there is a
place for this list.  This medium has a relationship to the
psyche -- and we can experience and explore that.  We can also
look at how we work within this medium.

For example I am conscious of that our whole experience of the
medium is coloured by the software in many ways.  Some people get
this message in a folder -- for others it is possible only to
read it on line -- for others it is part of a long list of mail. 
Thus our experience of this ''Conference" is unique.  I have 400
hundred messages that I have ready access to from Psybernet --
plus another 2000 on archive.  For others I am sure, this is
their first message -- (welcome).  So our history in the media is
important.

Even though our experience differs -- there is a Conference
here.  There is something that we can get to know more fully, and
that we are creating.  In all this I think it is very like the
psyche.  

This is just an example, of what Psybernet is about.  I guess it
is very wide ranging.

Here are some topics that could be raised here:

Can psychotherapy be done in cyberspace?

Net Archetypes.

Intruders in newsgroups.

The quality of recovery forums on the net.

Dreams interpretation in groups.

Psychological aspects of Administration of lists.  (I will write
something about this soon!)

Gender and tele-computing 

Superhiway and other Metaphors.

McLuhan. 


The purpose of these explorations is much like the work of any
classical psychologist such as Jung, to describe the phenomena,
to learn to see and live with the soul of cyberspace.  The
experiential exploration of the phenomena is the place to start. 
In the Aion group we are busy at work, doing the task of the
group.  Here we can reflect on the process -- also on how that
type of work my be enhanced.  For example should the group be
closed or open?  Some of us have experienced small closed groups
of invited members -- that is a totally different experience.

I hope this opens up some of the possibilities of Psybernet -- I
notice that there have been a lot of new subscribers in the last
few days  --  10 or so.  Brining the list to about 60.  It would
be good to have personal introductions.  Personal matters relate
fully to the theme of the Conference so building connections here
is a good place to start.

Thanks for the intro Bill.

> By way of introduction, my name is Bill Garrett, and I'm a
> self-taught "student" of Jung and things Jungian. I'm also a
> Macintosh nut and an Internet addict. I have loved the study of
> myth, dreams and the mind since I was little. I'm 39, play jazz
> drums (none of that wild-man stuff in the woods), preside over
> an online-only Mac user group, and help administer a BBS in
> Memphis, TN.

It sounds like you and Psybernet are a good match.  I hope we can
make some good things happen.  


Walter 


From walter@ Sat Aug 05 20:59:01 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Ron's Intro
From: Self <walter>
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 1995 20:59:01

Dear Ron,

I enjoyed reading your intro.

> I am more a reader than a participant and have never, I think,
> really introduced myself. My full name is Ron Scheer. I am
> employed as a writer and information design analyst for a
> communications consultant based in New York. 

This is the first time I have taken in your job description. 
Could you say more about this work?  How much of it is related
to the electronic media?  

> Connecticut and am expecting to be transferred to the Los
> Angeles office of the company I work for. (Previously, I spent
> 2 years working in the UK offices.) 

How is that for you, will your miss your spot by the sea? 

> My other interests include
> playwriting and, more recently, screenwriting. I have an avid
> interest in music of most kinds: blues, world music, jazz,
> ambient, post-classical and classical. 

How is the movie coming along?  well the script?


> I often feel underqualified to contribute to this list. I stick
> around primarily because it offers a refuge from the
> youth-oriented hurly burly of what I think of as mainstream Net
> communications. My own issues have to do with depression,
> gender, spiritual faith, and the integrity of people in extreme
> circumstances (e.g., political prisoners). 

Let me say that there are no qualifications at all required for
this list -- and if there were yours would be hard to beat!  It
is difficult to know how to proceed with the explorations of
Psybernet.  I am finding it easier to launch forth in the Aion
group -- now that is a long way away from the youth oriented
culture of the net! 

One of the things that I think is happening is that through the
various connections we make is that I am getting stronger sense
of who you are, and I also have a sense of being seen and heard
by you.  This is in itself really quite an experience -- and
worth noting in the context of Psybernet, most of the deeper
correspondence I have had here has been with people I know well
in RL.  

In psychodrama there is a concept of the social atom.  The term
is self explanatory, all the relevant people who constellate
around you.  Psychodramatists urge people to include whoever is
''there'' could be imaginary friends, Jesus, or the family pet.
 I definitely have you in my atom.  

> >>>>
> OK, I have a report to write!  Recommendations to a small
> organisation re their communication environment -- that is
> something I wont do again, having got the Psybernet focus much
> more clearly in place. <<<<
> 
> Did I miss something? Why won't you do this again?

It is done, and I am so pleased to have it out of the way.  In
trying to define my Psybernet explorations Dan Randow and I
warmed up to the idea that there was a role for consulting to
organisations on the communication environment -- and there is,
but it is too far removed for me from my very psychological
focus.  I like to work slowly watching the psyche -- I already
have my full time psychotherapy work!  To come here and reflect
on the soul in Psyberspace is fine, but to link all that to
specific needs of an organisation is out of my league.  

I think Dan will keep at it and I am really pleased to have
that connection with him and I think the Psybernet work will
assist his work, and vice versa, but they are distinct. 
Perhaps it is not so much Psybernet, but me.  I am not the one
to move more in this direction.  

I am keen to conduct psychological groups in cyberspace -- the
Aion group is giving me all sorts of insights into the nature
of the medium.  I am also -- planning a face to face group in
Christchurch that will have an e-mail group associated with it.
 I am finding it hard to visualise fully.

I went to the Polytech here to check out using the suit of
computers.  Something is not right about it.  The venue's
ambience is wrong, and the machines do not connect to the
Internet in the way I want.  Perhaps we just have f2f meetings
in a nice place with no computers at all, just one -- this one
projected onto a screen?  

Also I want to do some sort of personal exploration work with
people, and maybe the technology is just too demanding still
for people who might want to do that.

Anyway, this is to indicate the direction I am moving.  No you
didn't miss anything -- I just made a rapid change.

Walter.



From andrew_scott@link.equinox.gen.nz Sun Aug 06 13:06:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: `something else'
From: Andrew Scott <andrew_scott@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Sun, 06 Aug 1995 13:06:00

Does this happen to anybody else?

You are sitting there doing something and thinking, wow, imagine if this 
happened(thinking of something in your mind) and you think nothing of it, go 
about your buisness and then find out that it has, and its almost as if 
someone said to you "Dont be stupid, dont do it" and then you do.

I hope you can follow what I am trying to say here, its difficult to say but
I 
think you know what I mean.
Anyway, would anyone like to discuss this? please e-mail me.
Andrew

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Mon Aug 07 22:26:45 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: somethings said
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 23:26:45 +1300 (NDT)


I enjoyed reading Walters reply to Ron, this is the 
only list i am subscribed to, but its great to listen to know that 
i'm (just about) always gonna hear that bleedaleedle bing that means i've 
got mail... 
 
> Walter wrote;
> I am keen to conduct psychological groups in cyberspace -- the
> Aion group is giving me all sorts of insights into the nature
> of the medium. 

well i'm keen to do something more exciting with this email thang. i 
would love to join in some sort of closed group sort of thing. lots of 
ideas things interest me, although (exceptionally) Jung was kinda not my 
thing, or more to the point, i didn't feel quite up to such a tome right 
at the moment, but there are some things i thought would be good for this 
group.

one of them is that perhaps we could try to rewrite others submissions:
throwing courtesy and normal rules of polite referencing to the four 
winds we together choose a (initial like) topic - umm, say archetypes-
i guess this could be part of the process though i'm certain it is very 
important. maybe a question? anyone throws in two bits, and from these
different submissions anyone may reconstruct a shorter/longer
 summarised/stylised rendition, from these beautiful renditions a 
symposium of collation may be attempted and from these symposiums we can 
go a step further....
i dunno maybe its a silly idea, but it seems like the kinda thing that 
this group could/should be exploring. what are the limits to what we can 
acheive with this medium, what is it good for, and i mean here not what 
we can sit down and do, but rather what sort of things do we find easy...

what sort of things were you thinking of Walter? soon as you are ready i 
will be...

> I am also -- planning a face to face group in
> Christchurch that will have an e-mail group associated with it.
>  I am finding it hard to visualise fully.
> 
> I went to the Polytech here to check out using the suit of
> computers.  Something is not right about it.  The venue's
> ambience is wrong, and the machines do not connect to the
> Internet in the way I want.  Perhaps we just have f2f meetings
> in a nice place with no computers at all, just one -- this one
> projected onto a screen?  

personally i think you shouldn't try to have computers. yuck... a room
full of computers, what worse place for talking to each other? 
netizens are coming to understand the true need for moderation and 
variation of medium. furthermore there is absolutely no reason why net 
focused interactions need to be limited strictly to computers. though 
perhaps one.....

> Also I want to do some sort of personal exploration work with
> people, and maybe the technology is just too demanding still
> for people who might want to do that.
what sort of technology improvements do we need? are we sticking to the 
theory that the written word can have a useful quality all its own, or 
maybe whats needed is an audible messaging system -one which still allows 
the ability to easily edit and reconsider!- but which could let us truly 
express ourselves?
 
anyway i should be training my networks...
bye!

Miles away




From walter@ Tue Aug 08 22:44:45 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Renditions
From: Self <walter>
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 22:44:45

Miles


Submission 1,

> one of them is that perhaps we could try to rewrite others
> submissions: throwing courtesy and normal rules of polite
> referencing to the four winds we together choose a (initial
> like) topic - umm, say archetypes- i guess this could be part
> of the process though i'm certain it is very important. maybe a
> question? anyone throws in two bits, and from these different
> submissions anyone may reconstruct a shorter/longer
>  summarised/stylised rendition, from these beautiful renditions
> a symposium of collation may be attempted and from these
> symposiums we can go a step further.... i dunno maybe its a
> silly idea, but it seems like the kinda thing that this group
> could/should be exploring. what are the limits to what we can
> acheive with this medium, what is it good for, and i mean here
> not what we can sit down and do, but rather what sort of things
> do we find easy...
Miles.


Rendition,

Symposium of Renditions. 
I propose we choose a topic, and then write to it.  When so
inclined, others rewrite it in a new style, a summary or a
stylised rendition.  We do this boldly, with an understanding
that we will have our posts reconstructed.  The first topic: 
What Topic for the Renditions Project?  

A collation could lead to symposium on the web, a beautiful art
form born gracefully from this medium 
Walter

> what sort of things were you thinking of Walter? soon as you
> are ready i will be...

Well I was not thinking of rendition symposiums, but now I am! 
Is my rendition the sort of thing you had in mind?  I hoe
someone re hashes mine into a koan! 

We had the powerful experience of the ALTERWORLD, that was
pretty good learning.  I am still on for something like that. 
An email group via an anonymous remailer?  I don't really want
to do that right now, but just brainstorming.   Have you come
across alt.coffeehouse.amethyst?  That is a strange place,
another outgrowth of the medium.  It is all written like a
novel, with yourself as a character, speaking in the 3rd
person.  In alt.psychology.jung they are writing a poem one
line at a time!  

I am all for your project -- lets do it -- here in Psybernet
Conference and just see if it takes off.  Great suggestion.

Re the Internet f2f group you wrote:
> personally i think you shouldn't try to have computers. yuck...
> a room full of computers, what worse place for talking to each
> other? netizens are coming to understand the true need for
> moderation and variation of medium. furthermore there is
> absolutely no reason why net focused interactions need to be
> limited strictly to computers. though perhaps one.....

I don't think it is possible to divorce the technology from the
content.  People are at a stage mostly where they need to learn
to get very familiar with the medium.  Melt into it like into a
cosy armchair.  Only today I moved from win VN for newsgroup to
free Agent.  What a difference -- now I will enjoy newsgroups. 
These things are very important.  I recently corresponded with
someone who could not stay subbed to group because his mail was
not filtered and he had to keep his mailbox clear for important
mail -- one could not ever '' go deeper'' into cyberspace
without learning way of flowing with the technical.  Tidy
messages -- going to the right people at the right time -- that
is the first art.  Being able to find old stuff -- being able
to cut and paste it into an e-mail -- spell checking -- these
things are not for wimps.  

I digress  . . . would there be a place for a personal 
exploration group meeting face to face and via e-mail?  I just 
can't see it.  I can just see a more computer oriented group, 
perhaps evolving  . . .

> > Also I want to do some sort of personal exploration work with
> > people, and maybe the technology is just too demanding still
> > for people who might want to do that.

> what sort of technology improvements do we need? 

I guess I meant people skill really.  Though technology comes
into it, as with Free Agent and so on.  Win95 will make a
difference -- the interface _is_ more logical and I heard a new
user say "Wow that is the first time I have ever found HELP
useful on a computer" -- that is some compliment.  But
reinstalling it on my old system is not the best -- so there
are many hassles.

> are we sticking to the theory that the written word can have a
> useful quality all its own, 

We _are_ sticking to that theory!  Imagine a teleconference --
they would constantly be saying to each other "I'll e-mail you
about that!"  Not that they wont be an art form -- but words
are little poems.  Words have a history.  Words tell a story.  

> or maybe whatas needed is an audible messaging system -one
> which still allows the ability to easily edit and reconsider!-
> but which could let us truly express ourselves?

Telephone?  Answerphone for asyncronycity?  But how would you
do that in a group --  I can read 10 e-mail in the time I
listen to one answerphone message.  For all that we could
experiment with adding sound files to messages.  Also pictures.
 I also like the idea of using WWW as an adjunct to a list. 
Must be tastefully done.  

> anyway i should be training my networks...

is this your AI stuff?

> Miles away

Far out.

Walter.




From walter@ Fri Aug 11 15:45:34 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Word Fidelity 
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 15:45:34

The words of cyberspace groups -- do we go with it or do we
develop our own jargon.  How much is it just a question of
words and how much do we need to look at the substantive things
the words refer to?  My hunch is that we use all the terms as
they are, but that for psychological purposes we need to add
words, and  develop a usage.

= list - owner = 
The latest version of MG puts this in the first line of the
header -- thank goodness, because it will all work better.  But
what does it do for the warm-up?  And who is the real owner of a
list?  And who is the legal owner?  Consider administrator.  I
don't mind Sysop provided it means just that system operator,
but it never does, it means God.

= moderator = 
I have just discovered that in the US this term is used much as
we in New Zealand use chairperson or even Master(sic) of
Ceremonies, is that correct?  -- do they use chairperson over
there at all?

It has almost no off line meaning here apart from dampening
down things -- there is strong resistance to moderated groups. 

Reg, when he participated here, and I, came up with facilitator
and leader, depending on the role taken.


= lists, echos, newsgroup, forums = 
I think of there being two main categories of association in
cyberspace:  Conferences and Groups.  The above words refer more
to the technical way the things are set up.  Forums are a
CompuServe thing, echos a Fidonet thing.  

This Psybernet mailing list I call a Conference, it is open,
public, and has no defined closing time.  It is also an echo
and a mailing list, but it could be run as a newsgroup.  

As soon as we bring in such notions as invitation only, fixed
membership, fixed time structure -- I prefer the word Group.  
The reading group that I am part of fits that category simply
because of the structure imposed by following the chapters of a
book.  

= users and subscribers =
How about:  Conference participants and Group members?


Any comments? 


Walter 



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Fri Aug 11 17:15:29 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Renditions
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 18:15:29 +1300 (NDT)


 
 Wanted: A topic to be written to and boldly reconstructed
         no experience neccessary








From walter@ Fri Aug 11 19:19:48 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Re: Renditions
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 19:19:48

Sir,


>  Wanted: A topic to be written to and boldly reconstructed
>          no experience neccessary

Please consider this application:  


Cyberspace is the Goddess






From walter@ Sat Aug 12 19:54:40 1995
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Lost in Psyberspace
From: Self <walter>
Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 19:54:40

Dear A Groves                   

> Submitted:  21 Jul 95 

It has taken me a while to get back to this -- back to
Psybernet really, After being very busy. Aion and the report I
did for an organisation on tele-computing, and then getting a
bit of flu, and my private practice filling to the max.  

But I have not forgotten this discussion.  I have even been
reading snippets of Johnson's ''He''  which is based on the
grail myth -- to amplify this work.

>  Subject:  Lost in Psyberspace?

Appropriate.  I have been off in a few different directions --
not the least of which is attending to the software and
hardware of my system.  Preparing for Win95 & getting latest
versions of MailGate, the listserver program that runs this
system.

A note to all readers:  Get prepared for a long e-mail, settle
in with a drink . . . something to eat?  Attend to all the
stuff 'out there'  .. . . adjust the stereo.  OK.  Put this in
a wordprocessor you like, and let us have some of your
thoughts, feelings, and share some moments of connection.

I'll leave the original quote from Wired here for easy
reference --

RT> "  our interaction with computers has given birth
RT> to new forms of religious community.

RT> "The interactive quest, a symbolic journey in search of a
RT> grail, is the dominant genre in cyberspace, . . .  this
RT> quest begins when we cross the threshold of this world to
RT> the magical realm of our inner growth;  we leave the
RT> world of rational logic, and enter the underworld with
RT> its shadows, caverns, and mazes.  In this underground
RT> world we speak in the language of riddles and puzzles,
RT> the language of dreams and the unconscious.    We change
RT> shapes, undergo transformations.  The quest in all of its
RT> forms is a spiritual journey framed by archetypal symbols
RT> of good and evil."

A.Groves wrote:
> I am not personally familiar with the grail myth but in most
> casual way. I hear it being used for many things and have no
> idea whether the use in these instances is doing violence to
> the myth or not . . . but . . . for me, to use the 'grail'
> motif . . . the issue here is that we are searching for
> ourselves, either collectively or individually.  Yes, personal
> development.  Yes, personal growth.  But above all -
> ourselves.  What, who, ~am~ I?  What are you(pl) and what are
> we together?  


Yes.  That is well put.  We are searching for ourselves.  And
what a pull it is that self -- we want it.  We are so lost
without it.  What is it?  Oh boy, I am right in the Aion group!
 That is the focus there!  I will write some more and post it
there too:

A version of what I posted to Aion:
>>> We yearn to be ourselves, we know the pull to to be who we
are and that is our process of individuation.  We know the ego
and the (illusive) self through life experience.  Visual images
of the ego and self do not capture our process unless they
reflect joy and suffering.  And yes, the Christ image -- though
I was only a Christian for 2 days when I was 8, after being
scared to death by an evangelist -- captures both these
extremes.  Christ is also the baby.

Note the word reflect above.  We are searching and learning
through the reflection here.  This is a mirror.  <<<

The relief for most of us is that we are seeing the medium as a
mirror, and as a tool for reflection and personal growth. So
does it matter if we use the Christ image or the Grail image? 
I am not thinking of this as a religious question but a
psychological one.  

A.Groves goes on:
> In our political systems, communism tried to force us to be
> "us" to the detriment of the individual.  Capitalism tries to
> force us to be individuals to the detriment of the group...
> and still the question begs... who are we?

Yes the questioning is both individual and group -- finding
that balance.

> Politics - as with many of the other facades we use to try
> and facilitate
> corporate(social) life - holds us at arms length even at its
> highest moments and the real "us" whatever that is... sits
> inside with lonely eyes wondering if it will ever be allowed to
> come into the world. 

And there is something of being a monk and a hermit that is
possible at the same time as being in a group in this medium. 
I am in a very solitary place at the moment -- it has been
silent -- I have not seen people for 2 days.  I am a state of
meditation (of a sort) engrossed in writing to people and
groups.  Am I on a grail trip?


> The net has provided a medium where many - all across the
> globe can relate "inside to inside".  

Yes.


> Who is the man sitting on a Tibetan mountain side tending yaks
> because they are the sustenance for him and his family?  Who
> is the woman who cleans houses in a lower section of a large
> city and never really sees beyond that? These people, though
> part of us, are unknown to us.  

They might also have their moments of connection -- with others
-- and with themselves -- and with some sort of cyberspace --
in a meditation or in a church.  The medium as a mirror is not
unique -- perhaps it is now possible to re define some of the
earlier forms of the Net.  The campfire -- around which dramas
were enacted, and oral traditions passed on -- was that not the
first Net?  

> And who am I?  Am I who I think I am?  I am I the mirror image
> I get from those around me?  Is there part of me that is
> farther back or deeper [there's your word again] down?

A.Groves  --  (have I missed your first name somewhere?  I do
miss it!)  I feel a connection with you -- this use of the net
as a mirror has been on my mind for a while.  After a
discussion with Ron (who is on this list), when I was writing
my WWW page I opened it with the following:

>> information to help me find myself
>> perhaps you will learn something 
>> about yourself from browsing here.

The idea is that you wont learn much about me!  Even though it
is a very personal web setup.

> I think the net is, at best, another form of communication -
> another tool.  You mention "realms of imagination"...  It
> seems to me that this is not as esoteric as we might like to
> think or have been taught.  If I put my hand on your face...
> have I touched you?  People touch in subways all the time
> [especially in Tokyo?] but have they touched each other.  If I
> write, smail or email, have I touched you?  I think that it is
> the imagination that allows us to touch at all.  Even in
> sexual contact - often touted to be the pinnacle of human
> contact - a lack of the presence of imagination means that the
> act is all but meaningless, just another event, incident,
> occurrence in the myriad that occur every day,
> indistinguishable from  others . . .

Yes.  This is such a fallacy that this medium is not intimate. 
That it is an avoidance of human contact.  We need some way to
connect and words can do it -- touch can too!  But both can
miss as easily as the other.  Also there are things we can do
here that are quite unique -- write public letters -- have some
physical anonymity -- making it easier to overcome barriers of
race, gender, looks, culture, accents, class -- though all of
these can become known in their own time.  

> You mention the difference between psychological and
> spiritual.  I suppose that that Augustinian dichotomy
> nature/grace comes in here.  I feel that it is only another
> paragdym... but they have value and are useful.  Just as
> nature is down here and grace is up there...  my soul,
> mind/emotion/will, is the touch point to nature, horizontally;
> whereas my spirit is the touch point to the spiritual
> dimension.  I realize that one cannot push this too far.  In
> reality the spiritual probably "contains" the physical...  

I mentioned it again in a way, above.  I am guided by Jung, too
who speaks of Christ as a psychological symbol -- and separate
in that way from any religious or historical realm.  

Exactly how these metaphysical structures hang together seems
both arbitrary and very important.  I like to know what where I
am in the tree of ideas, even though I am more comfortable
(than I used to be) forging my own limb on the tree.  Where
does Augustine fit in on the tree?  I have no idea.  I know
that the up/down imagery is not so satisfying -- as it leads to
looking for the numinous ''up there'' while I am attracted (as
you have acknowledged) to the traditions (mainly through mu
reading of Hillman) which look for the numinous down there in
the deep!  I also like to think that the material world
contains the "spiritual" -- where does that put me on the tree
of ideas?  Somewhere with Marx.  


> But my question here is... On how many levels do we
> communicate.  Do we simply, [as in only] touch minds?  Do we
> touch in spirit as well?  I realize that in "discussing" with
> you that I feel "linked" to you although I have never seen
> you.  Your mail came in and I "knew" who you were... 
. . .   
 . . . 

" I am breathing into this."   He said after looking at the
passage for the third time.  "I feel touched  . . . and seen." 
He stares at the screen, lost in thought, looking a little
dubious.  "I am still unable to form a visual image of
A.Groves, should I be able to?  Did I miss an introductory
message?"  He clicks over to Pegasus Mail and looks at the last
100 Psybernet messages.   "Nope, but what about now, is this
enough?  Is this enough to touch minds?  Yes.  Is there a link?
 Yes.  Do I feel it?  Yes.  Is it spiritual?  Hmmm. . . "  

I have a sense of wanting to send this through the wires.  I
want to _form_  a path in the ether.  I want others to notice
this, as well as A.Groves.  I am enjoying the moment . . .
feeling the exposure.  I am what psychodrama people would call
warmed-up.  I am _ready_ for the next connection, and that will
be important to me.  I can see it is a drama, but I would not
call this spiritual.  (I am not really familiar with that
sense!)  

> Expand this to the net and the global communication of many in
> an open forum where people meet to "discuss", in whatever
> manner that my be... and suddenly we need to ask large
> questions about 'spirit' and who we are.  

Yes, and the answers come by 'being here and now'  looking at
the phenomena of our experience here.  It is in this way that I
think we will know _what_ myths and metaphors work best here. 
The grail story was alluded to because of ''adventure'' games
having this quality of a search, and it fits our search here --
though I am right now, much more willing to accept whatever
comes up.  There is no focus to this search for me.  There is
no grail.  

> Am I being added to by this.. or am I loosing something? Am I
> being augmented or diminished?  Are we growing or dying?  Are
> we adding or taking away.    

Who knows where it will lead  . .  but now for me:  added ,
growing augmented.

> I suppose it because of this scale, if nothing else..., that
> we need to see these questions as spiritual because they have
> to do with the totality of who we are, rather then concerning
> themselves with aspects or parts of us.

I see -- it is the ''wholeness'' that makes it spiritual.  I
like it because it feels like entering into a complexity  . . .
something unfinished with the possibility of surprises.


Walter 



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Sun Aug 13 21:09:48 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Renditions
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 22:09:48 +1300 (NDT)



[...]
> > what sort of things were you thinking of Walter? soon as you
> > are ready i will be...
> Well I was not thinking of rendition symposiums, but now I am! 
> Is my rendition the sort of thing you had in mind?  I hoe
> someone re hashes mine into a koan! 

What you wrote was way more beautifully put and definitely what i had in 
mind though i also had the idea in mind that something other would come 
of it than what i could think.

> We had the powerful experience of the ALTERWORLD, that was
> pretty good learning.  I am still on for something like that. 
i was one of those fortunate enough to hear all about the intensity and 
consequences of the ALTERWORLD, but unfortunate enough that i never got a 
go... i really wished that i had taken part. i think it is good that you 
will have learnt from that first time and know some things about what may 
go wrong and stuff, so like i say... i'm keen, but i would also 
understand if you personally would not feel up to the hassle at the mo.

> An email group via an anonymous remailer?  I don't really want
> to do that right now, but just brainstorming.   Have you come
> across alt.coffeehouse.amethyst?  That is a strange place,
> another outgrowth of the medium.  It is all written like a
> novel, with yourself as a character, speaking in the 3rd
> person.  In alt.psychology.jung they are writing a poem one
> line at a time!  

well i just went and tried to find alt.coffeehouse.amethyst but it is 
elsewhere, so no. but yeah. there are thousands of things we could do.

> I am all for your project -- lets do it -- here in Psybernet
> Conference and just see if it takes off.  Great suggestion.

ok... am seeing. Hello!

> Re the Internet f2f group you wrote:
> > personally i think you shouldn't try to have computers. yuck...
> I don't think it is possible to divorce the technology from the
> content.  People are at a stage mostly where they need to learn...

well you know, now that i read this. i have to say i agree with you, 
there is a definite technology thing going on here. thanks for that.

> Win95 will make a
> difference -- the interface _is_ more logical and I heard a new
> user say "Wow that is the first time I have ever found HELP
> useful on a computer" -- that is some compliment.

sure is. once upon a time i got a job tutoring 
a retired man on how to fly his new computer. he wanted to 
write down every button he should press, so when the question came up of 
how to number the pages he wrote down...
                       NUMBERING PAGES
                       ---------------
                       -click on 'help'
                       -choose 'search'
                       -type 'footnote'
                       -choose 'go to subject'
                       -etc
he was mighty glad to learn that lesson, and i didn't get asked back for 
another lesson after. shouldn't have showed him that eh? at least I woulda 
made more money out of it.

> > are we sticking to the theory that the written word can have a
> > useful quality all its own, 
>
> We _are_ sticking to that theory!
> For all that we could experiment with adding sound files to messages. 
> Also pictures. I also like the idea of using WWW as an adjunct to a list. 
its a shame that you can't access (at least read) the list through the 
psybernet home page direct like, or maybe you can nowadays... down here 
in Otago we've all had our Netscape cut because its costing the uni too 
much... :(
turns out that 80% of the cost was people accessing nude pictures, so the 
sooner the net gets it together so that these sites can be banned from 
our system while maintaing access to rest the sooner 
the uni will be able to afford to bring back the World wide Web, and the 
sooner i'll be happy. BUT i don't want to seem like holier than them 
about it because there was an occasion i took to checking them out myself,
i'm not sure why. definitely bad, though maybe i can put it down to idle
curiousity although i wouldn't be suprised if Dan never talks to me ever 
ever again because i'm saying this. i guess this is the sort of thing that might
as well be in another letter entirely of its own, though it came up in this
one. i think that most of the people who read this list are mature people 
who might see this in a different way than many of the male geek youth on the
net. it is having a big impact on how the net is percieved and how it grows
physically mentally and spiritually, so it kinda deserves discussion. 
what do you think?

> Must be tastefully done.  

the computer scientists worry only about, 'now you CAN do this' now you 
CAN do that. you have the option of doing all sorts of things. they 
hardly ever stop to think about what would be the psychologically most 
useful/ good/ healthy thing to be able to do right now. but thats not a 
criticism, you gotta remember computers talk to each other at night, so you
don't want them to get the wrong idea about your attitude
 
> > anyway i should be training my networks... 
> is this your AI stuff?
yeah, right now the computer next door to me is training to be able to 
tell curvy lines from straight ones. its sitting on epoch '52' so i gotta 
wait a thousand years before i can do anything else with it. thats why i 
have so much time to write email again all of a sudden. make that '53'...
its finished all of a sudden because i didn't write this letter in one 
blast. 
 
> > Miles away
> 
> Far out.
sorry about that it seems that one of the mailer programs I use has 
taken to inserting 'Miles away' at the bottom of my messages. I could probably 
figure out which one it is, but there all set up so that i can't see my 
own sig so i would have to ferret around to find out which one. wonder if 
it 'll stick at the bottom of this one? 

see ya all around! hope you are having a pleasant and rewarding day.




From walter@ Mon Aug 14 03:07:03 1995
To: psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Model for Mail Groups
From: Self <walter>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 03:07:03

Hi All,

In the InterPsych mailing lists there is a flame war going on
about the nature of the lists -- ownership etc.  I have not
seen much of it as I was only briefly on the post traumatic
stress list.  I am on the Psychoanalysis in the Public Sphere
List. 

Do any of the Psybernet readers have a grasp of the struggles
there?  I think it would be a good opportunity for us to raise
some of the questions associated with running lists.  

You can get HELP and LISTS from listserv@netcom.com


A starting point for discussion is 

> a timely  article by Ian Pitchford entitled "A Proposed Model
> for  Professional Mail Groups."  You can read it online at:
> http://www.well.com/user/selfhelp/ian.html.........


I'll quote a chunk of it here:

> ----------------------------- quote --------------------------------- <
In the beginning.........
-------------------------

The original ethos of InterPsych was encapsulated in the phrase
"There is someone wiser than any of us, and that is all of us_.
If you remember I included those words in the original
introduction to the "Psychiatry and Abnormal Psychology
Discussion Forum", launched on the Mailbase listserv at the
University of Newcastle upon Tyne on that fateful day in
February, 1994. There is no doubt that InterPsych has met a
real need - 200 people subscribed to the _Psychiatry_ forum in
the first week alone, and now we have 38 separate fora and
thousands of individual members from all over the world, but
other than bringing people together to talk what does
InterPsych hope to achieve?

The Internet is *the* most astounding mode of communication yet
devised. We can express ourselves in text, colour, 3D, audio,
video, graphs, charts, emoticons, and so forth. We can
communicate one-to- one, one-to-many, and many-to-one. We can
span the globe in seconds; we can collaborate with people we
have never met - but most importantly we can be exposed to
ideas that we would *never* encounter in our day-to-day
reading, research and conversation. Even exposure to a simple
anecdote can bring about a fundamental change in our
perception, and in the direction of our research. As Marty
Seligman and David Rosenhan say in _Abnormal Psychology_,
"Anecdote is the richest source of hypotheses and insight". 

So What Are You Talking About?
------------------------------

Well we have:

            * thousands of members from many disciplines
            * unique modes of communication via the Internet
            * some organizational structure            
            * some first class ideas

So what's the problem?:

            * clogged communications
            * hierarchichal structure off-putting
            * volunteers stretched to the limit
            * local concerns and needs not adddressed
            * contraints of US commercial and legal considerations
            * many potential collaborators want to deal face-to-face
            * lack of access to facilities and to hierarchy means
              that only a few projects and problems can be tackled 
              at any one time

Is there a solution?:


> ---------------------------end quote ------------------------------ <
 




From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Aug 14 13:05:45 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Let me introduce myself...
From: tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 13:05:45 +1200


Greetings everyone,  my name is Tama Neill and I am a 1st year student at
Otago University in Dunedin,  New Zealand.Sadly of late the University has
overspent on communication funding.This means that the previous free for
all use of the Internet is gone- world wide access has been cut to N.Z
only.So I have been making an extensive search looking for intersting N.Z
sights and low and behold what do I find--"PSYBERNET".I glad to be involved
in your conferences...
  Lately I have been reading a book by Timothy Leary "chaos-and cyberspace"
which I'm finding intensely interesting.Hey Miles Thompson(another Otago
Uni student...)In your message you talked about the high levle of activity
on the net spent looking at nude woman.Well that was not the only area,
Muds moos and talk groups also strangely managed to use up a supriseing
amount of baud width.Back to the chaos in cyberspace,  well old(72) Timothy
Leary has some pretty interesting ideas,  a Pitty I can not remember them
at the mo,  I'll bring the book along another day...
  Well I want to discuss something that may not seem quite appropriate to
the conference but what the hey.At Otago uni theier is a video making
competition called Mothra and I'm going to be making one.The thing is I
want my plot by cyberpunkish-has any one read william Gibsons
Neuromancer-kinda like that.But I have to write a script...If anyone wants
to put forward some ideas I would appreciate it.
I want to make an exciting surreal action cyberspace thriller:but
cyberspace is the hard part to create,  using a computer seems to be the
only alternative to create the environment at the moment but because that
is incredibly time consuming and hard to do,  I need other alternatives,
any would be appreciated.I would also like to have some interesting ideas
exspressed in the film...Oh well...
I send some more mail when I can find something stimulateing and
interesting to say,  and correspondance would be appreciated.Thanx all,
BYE!!


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________



                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."
                                Socrates...





From ctpost@aol.com Mon Aug 14 14:03:10 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Re somethings said
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 22:03:10 -0400


> Walter wrote;
> I am keen to conduct psychological groups in cyberspace -- the
> Aion group is giving me all sorts of insights into the nature
> of the medium. 

Walter,
I know you've been sharing these insights in the past. I hope you continue
to. 

Miles Thompson wrote,
>>>there are some things i thought would be good for this 
group. one of them is that perhaps we could try to rewrite others
submissions<<<

This made me think of an artist friend in NY who had a show once of
*collaborative" work (paintings, primarily, and constructions). Each would
start a work, take it as far as they could, then give it to the other to take
further, then get it back to take further, until both were satisfied that it
was done.  My artist friend says that the process is interesting for what
happens to one's ego involvement in the creative process. In the end, the
contributions of each are so interwoven that you can no longer claim any part
of it as your own. I've wanted to explore the written word collaboratively in
this way but have never gone farther than this, to propose it and see if
anyone is interested. Is anyone interested? 

Walter continues,
> I am also -- planning a face to face group in
> Christchurch that will have an e-mail group associated with it.
>  I am finding it hard to visualise fully.
> 
I have been a participant in group work, meeting once a week, and feel that
being able to continue threads between sessions using email would have been a
great advantage. It would also have given participants *air time* in a way
that wouldn't have eaten up so much of our f2f time. There is maybe more work
here for a group leader to *moderate*, but perhaps the role of the group
leader could be defined differently for an electronic medium so that he/she
wouldn't have to be constantly *on*. The non-linear nature of email would
permit simulataneous exploration of many threads instead of just one at a
time.

> Perhaps we just have f2f meetings
> in a nice place with no computers at all, just one -- this one
> projected onto a screen?  

I wonder how different it would be if group participants *spoke* only by
taking turns at a keyboard with a projected screen. I'm not suggesting that
this is better than talking, but it might shift the dynamic of a group in the
favor of people more confident with the written word. There would also be a
record of what people actually said rather than what they remember saying.

Just some thoughts,
Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Mon Aug 14 14:03:19 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Re Ron's intro
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 22:03:19 -0400


Walter responds to my intro:

>>I am
>>employed as a writer and information design analyst for a
>>communications consultant based in New York. 

>>>This is the first time I have taken in your job description. 
Could you say more about this work?  How much of it is related
to the electronic media?<<<

Over the years we have expanded from paper to electronic documents. We design
interfaces for electronic sales presentations, web sites, CD-format material
like self-directed financial planning, etc. The communications we write are
based on a philosophy and discipline we call *simplification* -- taking
complex information and making it easy to understand and use, through a
combination of plain language, typography, and graphic design. In recent
years, we have developed a great many simplified documents for production on
high-speed laser printers, such as phone bills, bank statements, gas and
electic bills, insurance documents. 

The cross-over into electronic documents is interesting because the potential
for complexity in a hypertext environment is much greater. In the land-rush
to lay claim to territory in cyberspace through electronic publication, we
see people making the same mistakes all over again, using new technology to
create unintended confusion and complexity.   

>>Connecticut and am expecting to be transferred to the Los
>>Angeles office of the company I work for. (Previously, I spent
>>2 years working in the UK offices.) 

>>>How is that for you, will your miss your spot by the sea?<<<

I've just returned from a week scouting for a place to live in LA, and I have
decided to make every effort to be located within walking distance of the
Pacific.  

>>>a role for consulting to
organisations on the communication environment...To come here and reflect on
the soul in Psyberspace is fine, but to link all that to
specific needs of an organisation is out of my league.<<<

I think consulting to business organizations is very difficult. Especially as
they become more and more cost conscious. In a bean-counting environment,
what can't be measured doesn't count. For many, it doesn't exist. It is an
enviroment where the worth of anything is measured by market value or
projected revenues. It can be done, but in the same way it's possible to see
with only one eye. You find yourself in a world of one-eyed people extolling
the virtues of two-eyed vision -- failing that -- and adapting, by wearing an
eye patch. Something inside dies. At least for me. 

Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Mon Aug 14 14:21:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Re Renditions
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 1995 22:21:00 -0400



>> Wanted: A topic to be written to and boldly reconstructed
>>         no experience neccessary

>Please consider this application:  


>Cyberspace is the Goddess


Maybe this accounts for all those nude pictures.

Ron

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman              walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


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From: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Renditions




From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Tue Aug 15 00:51:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Model for mail Groups
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 12:51:00 +0000

Hi All,
 
 In the InterPsych mailing lists there is a flame war going on
 about the nature of the lists -- ownership etc.  I have not
 seen much of it as I was only briefly on the post traumatic
 stress list.  I am on the Psychoanalysis in the Public Sphere
 List. 
 
 Do any of the Psybernet readers have a grasp of the struggles
 there?  I think it would be a good opportunity for us to raise
 some of the questions associated with running lists.  
 
 You can get HELP and LISTS from listserv@netcom.com
 
 
 A starting point for discussion is 
 
 > a timely  article by Ian Pitchford entitled "A Proposed Model
 > for  Professional Mail Groups."  You can read it online at:
 > http://www.well.com/user/selfhelp/ian.html.........
 
 
 I'll quote a chunk of it here:
 
 > ----------------------------- quote --------------------------------- <
 In the beginning.........
 -------------------------
 
 The original ethos of InterPsych was encapsulated in the phrase
 "There is someone wiser than any of us, and that is all of us_.
 If you remember I included those words in the original
 introduction to the "Psychiatry and Abnormal Psychology
 Discussion Forum", launched on the Mailbase listserv at the
 University of Newcastle upon Tyne on that fateful day in
 February, 1994. There is no doubt that InterPsych has met a
 real need - 200 people subscribed to the _Psychiatry_ forum in
 the first week alone, and now we have 38 separate fora and
 thousands of individual members from all over the world, but
 other than bringing people together to talk what does
 InterPsych hope to achieve?
 
 The Internet is *the* most astounding mode of communication yet
 devised. We can express ourselves in text, colour, 3D, audio,
 video, graphs, charts, emoticons, and so forth. We can
 communicate one-to- one, one-to-many, and many-to-one. We can
 span the globe in seconds; we can collaborate with people we
 have never met - but most importantly we can be exposed to
 ideas that we would *never* encounter in our day-to-day
 reading, research and conversation. Even exposure to a simple
 anecdote can bring about a fundamental change in our
 perception, and in the direction of our research. As Marty
 Seligman and David Rosenhan say in _Abnormal Psychology_,
 "Anecdote is the richest source of hypotheses and insight". 
 
 So What Are You Talking About?
 ------------------------------
 
 Well we have:
 
             * thousands of members from many disciplines
             * unique modes of communication via the Internet
             * some organizational structure            
             * some first class ideas
 
 So what's the problem?:
 
             * clogged communications
             * hierarchichal structure off-putting
             * volunteers stretched to the limit
             * local concerns and needs not adddressed
             * contraints of US commercial and legal considerations
             * many potential collaborators want to deal face-to-face
             * lack of access to facilities and to hierarchy means
               that only a few projects and problems can be tackled 
               at any one time
 
 Is there a solution?:
 
 
 > ---------------------------end quote ------------------------------ <
  
 
 
 _____________________________________________________
 Walter Logeman              walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
 http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html
 
 
  * Wave Rider 1.20 [NR] *
 ... UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From walter@ Tue Aug 15 01:44:03 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Re: Renditions
From: Self <walter>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 01:44:03


Miles, Tama, Ron,

Well what a moment -- cooperative writing is definitely on the 
agenda here.  And the place is brimming with talent.  

> What you wrote was way more beautifully put and definitely what
> i had in mind though i also had the idea in mind that something
> other would come of it than what i could think.

Thanks, and then you managed to get it down to a wanted ad!   
Ron that must be *simplification* poetry in motion.

One of the aspects I like about it is that it is a form of
active listening -- I have wondered about that in cyberspace --
If I listen to someone how can I do that here?  Renditions
is one way.

Here is another candidate 

Welcome Tama!

> The thing is I want my plot by cyberpunkish-has any one
> read William Gibson's Neuromancer-kinda like that.But I have to
> write a script...If anyone wants to put forward some ideas I
> would appreciate it. I want to make an exciting surreal action
> cyberspace thriller:but cyberspace is the hard part to create, 
> using a computer seems to be the only alternative to create the
> environment at the moment but because that is incredibly time
> consuming and hard to do,  I need other alternatives, any would
> be appreciated.I would also like to have some interesting ideas
> exspressed in the film...


And Ron you like the idea:
> process. In the end, the contributions of each are so
> interwoven that you can no longer claim any part of it as your
> own. I've wanted to explore the written word collaboratively in
> this way but have never gone farther than this, to propose it
> and see if anyone is interested. Is anyone interested? 

How about we do a cyber thriller script.  I have a little 
training in Playback theatre.  The idea is that whatever the 
others do in the play or movement the other actors say YES in 
some way.  Add to it -- transform it -- but accept it and 
incorporate it.  

In a way the Aion group got going like that -- one person said
in alt.psychology.jung -- lets have a reading group, another
said lets to Aion -- I said yes to both and offered to set up
the list.  And here we go again.  Miless  Miles' -- how do I do
it?  idea -- Tama's idea and Ron's interest and experience. 
Wow.  

I promised myself a rest!  but I think we can slowly do this. 
We need some structure -- some method -- some constraints.  Is
there to be a 'finish'?  is there a 'form'?   can anyone play?


Walter.



From hoon@apk.net Tue Aug 15 04:29:44 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: (re) Lost in cyberspace
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 12:29:44 -0400


Greetings to all!

amplifications/derivations of the word net:

OHG: nezzi-to bind --- L:nodus-knot --- OIr:nascim-I bind --- L:nassa-fish
basket --- SKRT: nahyati-to knot, weave

net derived from neat:

ME, MF:netir, net-neat, trim (fr: bright) --- L: nitere-shine ---OIr:
noib-holy --- OPersian: naiba-beautiful

excerpt from An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Traditional Symbols", J.C.
Cooper, pg.111 q>--Net/Network--<

Ensnaring' entanglement; the attribute and property of all Gods who bind
and the ensnaring, negative aspect of the Great Mother, who is often the
Goddess of Nets. Network is symbolic of a complex relationship beyond a
mere space-time sequence, unlimited relationship; a structure formed of the
visible and the invisible; it is also unity. Christian: ambivalent as the
unbreakable net of the Church, and the ensnaring net of the devil. An
attribute of the disciples as the fishers of men. Graeco-Roman: An
attribute of Hephaestos/Vulcan as smith gods and gods who bind. In the
orphic fish cult, like the Semitic, the net is the Word of divinity, "the
great net encircling heaven and earth". Sumero-Semitic: Bel is invoked as
'the catching net' and Marduk overcomes Tiam with a net; Ishtar is the
Goddess of the net.

Comment: Binding->capturing->boundaries->unity...and also being caught up
in maya.

I'll f/u with research results about myths involving nets. 

<response> ------------------------------re: lost In Cyberspace--- 

>RT> " our interaction with computers has given birth RT> to new forms of
>religious community.

Yet, the paradox remains: May anything (everything) created out of the
*cosmic becoming* transcend the orthodoxy of the perennial inner
traditions? To cheaply re-phrase Fritjof Schoun's warning: beware when
humans specify their own spiritual paths (inflation?) as opposed to
enjoining God's. In any case, it is the lower levels of consideration
regarding this community that perhaps deserve consideration first...the
social/psychological aspect for instance. 

>forms is a spiritual journey framed by archetypal symbols of good and evil." I
>am not personally familiar with the grail myth but in most casual way. 

One aspect of the Grail myth is of course the call for the hero to be
frustrated, to make mistakes, to be wounded.And to not even be aware of his
learning/developing even as it happens.

>Christ is also the baby.

The problem of the *puer* and the problem of the demonized anima. Again,
paradox: the net is an ongoing magnificent intuitive and logos creation
that helps some suspend time, play, and do other child-like activities. At
the same time it builds community and thereby helps develops valent
activities. Where is the feminine on the net? (It's awash in this group for
one thing.)

>Christ image or the Grail image? I am not thinking of this as a religious
>question but a psychological one.

I'd like to hear what other people's quests and the net's effect upon them
are...a new thread?

>The net has provided a medium where many - all across the globe can    >relate
>"inside to inside".

The hunger to connect has great explanatory power whether you talk about
communities on the net, the "unwed" mother in the ghetto, the breakdown of
institutions, or its shadow side: i.e. (of the) participation mystique,
etc.

Also: that only

>The campfire -- around which dramas were enacted, and oral    >traditions passed
>on -- was that not the first Net?

It's incredible to use the WWW to jump into the site with the cave
paintings from the Lanquedoc!

>This is such a fallacy that this medium is not intimate. 

The misconceptions of people who haven't used the net. It's prospect of
intimacy is the most pleasant surprise for (this) newbie. 

>as it leads to looking for the numinous ''up there'' while I am >attracted (as
>you have acknowledged) to the traditions (mainly    >through mu reading of
>Hillman) which look for the numinous down >there in the deep! 

But, can being active on the net be an obstacle to the quest when your
computer is turned off? As Hillman puts it: how to go into the valley? 

>I realize that in "discussing" with you that I feel "linked" to >you although
>I have never seen you. Your mail came in and I "knew" >who you were... "I am
>still unable to form a visual image of A.Groves, should I be >able to? Did I
>miss an introductory message?" Do I feel it? Yes. >Is it spiritual? Hmmm. . .
>"

My simple test: would I like to meet my cyber pen pals in person, Spend a
day sitting around the campfire? (as for you Walter:yes!) 

>There is no focus to this search for me. There is no grail. 

It would be interesting to look at the different heuristics involved in
being on the net from the point of view of analytic psychology. For myself,
as an intuitive person, I am a kid in a candy store. 

>Am I being added to by this.. or am I loosing something? Am I being >augmented
>or diminished? Are we growing or dying? Are we adding or >taking away. Who
>knows where it will lead . . but now for me: added , growing >augmented. I
>like it because it feels like entering into a complexity . . . >something
>unfinished with the possibility of surprises. 

Where does our energy want to go and what does it say to us? (Usually not
the path of least resistance!)

My question is: What kind of good works can the net facillitate? 



Stephen Calhoun

a thin bright reedsong                  | Stephen Calhoun
if it should fail, we fail              |
@Rumi PUBH                              | in Cleveland, Ohio





From waerwolf@lava.net Tue Aug 15 18:00:46 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Hello, am I lost?
From: waerwolf@lava.net
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 20:00:46 -1000


Greetings all...
 
Just thought I'd let you know I was lurking out here...
 
Allow me to introduce myself... 
 
WaerWolf, AKA Richard Dawson, of Kailua, Hawaii (physically)

And, if I may add a bit to the topic:
 
>I realize that in "discussing" with you that I feel "linked" to >you although
>I have never seen you. Your mail came in and I "knew" >who you were... "I am
>still unable to form a visual image of A.Groves, should I be >able to? Did I
>miss an introductory message?" Do I feel it? Yes. >Is it spiritual? Hmmm. . .
>"

I think that because this is a visual medium, someone's "writing" becomes
the image I have of that person... Perhaps not their physical appearance,
but an expession of who they are. [And isn't that what matters anyway]
 
Also, as far as that goes (and I feel I'm drifting out on a tangent of my
own), I have no preconceptions of anyone I meet out here in cyberspace.
Maybe I have a pink mohawk and multiple body piercings, or maybe I'm a
"computer nerd" with coke-bottle glasses. Maybe something in between.... But
the "me" you know is only what I project thru my messages... Perhaps it
could be said that you know my mind, in a way.
 
Of course, here in the land of the mind, it isn't physical size that's
intimidating (if you decide that anything need be intimidating), but the
"intellectual size" one projects... Even now, I feel a bit small, not having
a philosophical quote to add to this message (or perhaps this message is
such a quote...?)
 
So, how do you perceive me?
 



                                        <WW>




From ???@??? Thu Aug 17 20:50:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Dramatic rendition
From: "miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz" <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:50:00

From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
To: waerwolf@lava.net
Cc: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Dramatic rendition


Hawaii, 2198:
   palm trees are in the process of blowing over in a huge hurricane
   outside. meanwhile, safely enclosed within a metallic shell-hut sits
   the sysop of cyberspacial godess inc; looking up through a
   small plexiglass window at the broiling clouds outside. it looks as
   if it might rain. the sysop is speaking, but there is no one else in
   the room.

Sysop: O H G colon nezzi to bind dash dash dash, ummm....  L
       colon nodus knot netir net... read it back.




accept this as my contribution... change it as you wish.


--- xMail 1.00

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From ???@??? Thu Aug 17 20:53:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Hello, am I lost?
From: "CTpost@aol.com" <ctpost@aol.com@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:53:00

From: CTpost@aol.com
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Hello, am I lost?

Richard,

>>>the "me" you know is only what I project thru my messages... Perhaps it
could be said that you know my mind, in a way.<<<

My own experience of projection is that you don't have a lot of control over
how you are perceived in any medium. When other people see you they often see
some aspect of themselves, either something they identify with or something
they reject. I think people waste a lot of energy managing other people's
impression of them. Like the drunk pretending to be sober. Anyone really
paying attention notices the effort and wonders what is being hidden.

>>>Of course, here in the land of the mind, it isn't physical size that's
intimidating (if you decide that anything need be intimidating), but the
"intellectual size" one projects... Even now, I feel a bit small, not having a
philosophical quote to add to this message (or perhaps this message is such a
quote...?)

So, how do you perceive me?<<<

I identify with the part of you that doesn't want to seem like an
intellectual lightweight. I often find discussions on the Net to be over my
head, dominated by people who seem to have encyclopedic interests, opinions,
and memories. I sense that my own meager comments hardly count for anything,
and I often feel like an outsider, though I am trying my best to participate.


Thx,
Ron

--- xMail 1.00

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From ???@??? Thu Aug 17 20:53:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Hello, am I lost?
From: "CTpost@aol.com" <ctpost@aol.com@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 20:53:00

From: CTpost@aol.com
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Hello, am I lost?

Richard,

>>>the "me" you know is only what I project thru my messages... Perhaps it
could be said that you know my mind, in a way.<<<

My own experience of projection is that you don't have a lot of control over
how you are perceived in any medium. When other people see you they often see
some aspect of themselves, either something they identify with or something
they reject. I think people waste a lot of energy managing other people's
impression of them. Like the drunk pretending to be sober. Anyone really
paying attention notices the effort and wonders what is being hidden.

>>>Of course, here in the land of the mind, it isn't physical size that's
intimidating (if you decide that anything need be intimidating), but the
"intellectual size" one projects... Even now, I feel a bit small, not having a
philosophical quote to add to this message (or perhaps this message is such a
quote...?)

So, how do you perceive me?<<<

I identify with the part of you that doesn't want to seem like an
intellectual lightweight. I often find discussions on the Net to be over my
head, dominated by people who seem to have encyclopedic interests, opinions,
and memories. I sense that my own meager comments hardly count for anything,
and I often feel like an outsider, though I am trying my best to participate.


Thx,
Ron

--- xMail 1.00

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From walter@ Thu Aug 17 22:28:17 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: t e s t -- and a note!
From: Self <walter>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 1995 22:28:17

A messase from Ron and a message from Miles -- went to me & not 
the conf.  I'll post them up -- but i am just testing to see if 
this works.  

If so look for Ron's and Mile's messages under my name 
(unfortunately.)

w


From walter@ Fri Aug 18 01:41:50 1995
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: A mess & t e s t -- and a note!
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 01:41:50

A messase from Ron and a message from Miles -- went to me & not
the conf.  I'll post them up.

Problem loosing some key files on the bbs -- just restored them.

If so look for Ron's and Mile's messages under my name 
(unfortunately.)

w


From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Fri Aug 18 02:59:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: test and a note
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 02:59:00

Hi,


A messase from Ron and a message from Miles -- went to me & not the conf. 
I'll post them up -- but i am just testing to see if this works.

If so look for Ron's and Mile's messages under my name
(unfortunately.)

w
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman              walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From walter@ Fri Aug 18 09:07:31 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: test and a note
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 1995 09:07:31

I managed to get them to the list with the the right names -- 
also have found a problem, fixed some of it.

Walter 


 Hi,
> 
> 
> A messase from Ron and a message from Miles -- went to me & not
> the conf. I'll post them up -- but i am just testing to see if
> this works.
> 
> If so look for Ron's and Mile's messages under my name
> (unfortunately.)
> 
> w
> _____________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman              walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
> http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html
> 
> * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)
> 


From walter@ Tue Aug 22 01:27:37 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: == Admin ==
From: Self <walter>
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 01:27:37

== Admin ==

=Strange Problem with system = 
The address list for Psybernet Conference was accidentally
auto-deleted?  Now restored from backup, with some of the names
added manually.  I will re post the few messages that some might
have missed

Apologies!

= New address =
The Internet provider is changing their setup and it will
improve the service.  There will be a new address for the list,
but current subscribers need make no changes, as the new system
will recognise the old address.  

On Thursday afternoon 24 August, New Zealand time the system
will be changed over to work on the new address.  I am not
expecting problems, but if you notice any, please let me know. 
There may be a short delay in the distribution of mail, but it
will all get through in the end.  Just write as usual.

= MailGate, the listserver for this Group =
I have the next version of the software here and will be
upgrading on the weekend.  That may help with some minor
irritants in the system.  On the other hand, if there are new
problems arising please let me know.  The Digest function may
also be improved -- or in the next version?


= Psybernet WWW address changes =
The providers have put in a new server and now it is:

http://www.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


= List Address =
Don't forget that to send mail to this list it goes to:

psyber-L@link.equinox.gen.nz


= Bounced mail = 
If you send to this list  you may get some unexpected mail
telling you your message was not received by some members of
the list.  It means that your message was in fact received by
the list and distributed. Please just delete the messages. 

I have with the help of a few people traced the problem down to
the Internet provider.  When I get the new address -- the
problem may well be fixed. 


That's it for now, 


Walter.



From ???@??? Tue Aug 22 02:12:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Dramatic rendition
From: "miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz" <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 02:12:00

From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
To: waerwolf@lava.net
Cc: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: Dramatic rendition


Hawaii, 2198:
   palm trees are in the process of blowing over in a huge hurricane
   outside. meanwhile, safely enclosed within a metallic shell-hut sits
   the sysop of cyberspacial godess inc; looking up through a
   small plexiglass window at the broiling clouds outside. it looks as
   if it might rain. the sysop is speaking, but there is no one else in
   the room.

Sysop: O H G colon nezzi to bind dash dash dash, ummm....  L
       colon nodus knot netir net... read it back.




accept this as my contribution... change it as you wish.


--- xMail 1.00

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Tue Aug 22 14:56:43 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Hello, am I lost?
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 15:56:43 +1300 (NDT)



> >>>the "me" you know is only what I project thru my messages... Perhaps it
> could be said that you know my mind, in a way.<<<
> 
> My own experience of projection is that you don't have a lot of control over
> how you are perceived in any medium. When other people see you they often see
> some aspect of themselves, either something they identify with or something
> they reject. I think people waste a lot of energy managing other people's
> impression of them. Like the drunk pretending to be sober. Anyone really
> paying attention notices the effort and wonders what is being hidden.
 
The thing about this type of space in particular is that it gives us a lot 
more control over how we project ourselves since we can read over our 
words and reconsider wether and how we want what we say to be said don't 
you think. not that it doesn't stop us from being real nervous and 
acrimonious over things that we have said in a forum like this, even 
though we are unlikely to ever meet, an experience that i have had 
recently. but then again sometimes we just think, send send send and be 
damned  





From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Wed Aug 23 01:27:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Hello, am I lost?
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 01:27:00

Ron!

Good to be writing to you -- god i have been going for it in Aion
-- what a business!  I do quite like it there -- but have been frustrated in
not getting back to these interesting budding
developments here.  Partly that i have been in the software wars.


Richard WaerWolf from Hawaii wrote:
>>>Of course, here in the land of the mind, it isn't physical size
that's intimidating (if you decide that anything need be
intimidating), but the "intellectual size" one projects... Even now, I feel a
bit small, not having a philosophical quote to add to this message (or perhaps
this message is such a quote...?)

So, how do you perceive me?<<<

Ron wrote:
> I identify with the part of you that doesn't want to seem
> like an intellectual lightweight. I often find discussions
> on the Net to be over my head, dominated by people who seem
> to have encyclopedic interests, opinions, and memories. I
> sense that my own meager comments hardly count for anything,
> and I often feel like an outsider, though I am trying my
> best to participate.

I see you both ''feeling small'' but is that only me projecting my feeling
small onto you?  HA!  I definitely see the small ness in you two as a sort of
un needed self deprecation -- Ron who I know best, I don't see you as any sort
of lightweight -- but is this just me projecting my tendency to fee fearful of
being as big as i am?

Ron, your comments have always counted -- in Future Culture lately i just
scan to see if there is something from you.  I also
''sense'' that others look to you and ''count'' you in -- is that my
projection that others look to me?

I guess well never know!  But it is not only in any medium, but in all of
life that it is like this.

Coming to think of it, perhaps my profession as a psychotherapist is to
untangle these projections as far as is possible.  That takes many hours of trust and safety.  I suppose we call that
working through the transference and counter transference.  I think it can be
done -- and i even think it can be done here in cyberspace.

Is this me being encyclopedic?  My projection is that you do not think so! 
Or is that just my projection?  Now I am lost!


Warm wishes,


Walter

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From walter@link.equinox.gen.nz Wed Aug 23 01:51:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Dramatic rendition
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 01:51:00


Miles

> Hawaii, 2198:
>    palm trees are in the process of blowing over in a huge
> hurricane    outside. meanwhile, safely enclosed within a
> metallic shell-hut sits    the sysop (male) of cyberspacial 
> godess
> inc; looking up through a    small plexiglass window at the
> broiling clouds outside. it looks as    if it might rain.
> the sysop is speaking, but there is no one else in    the
> room.

> Sysop: O H G colon nezzi to bind dash dash dash, ummm....  L
>        colon nodus knot netir net... read it back.

Cut to wall_screen which fills most of the dome.  Large lips reminiscent of
the opening of the Rocky Horror Picture show begin to speak:

Lips:  O H P . . . Reading back:  login successful  . . . about to mobilise
VR 12.  Sound -- full,  colour -- full,  depth 100%,  safety proc2 for mode VR
12 required, you have 12 seconds.

Lips fade   Loud impactful music, lots of feed back.  Blinding clours fill
the dome.  In the midst of this transition the Sysop calmly performs the
safety proc2 movements and reclines into the soft corner of the dome.  12
seconds later the sysop is walking in a city scape.  Silent.  Cleaner than
Singapore.  It is the same Sysop but she is now a woman.

> accept this as my contribution... change it as you wish.

mine too, then one day we can ''freeze the code''.


Walter

 

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From ctpost@aol.com Thu Aug 24 01:32:03 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Hello, am I still lost?
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:32:03 -0400


Walter,

>>>>I see you both ''feeling small'' but is that only me projecting my
feeling
small onto you?  HA!  I definitely see the small ness in you two as a sort of
un needed self deprecation -- Ron who I know best, I don't see you as any
sort
of lightweight -- but is this just me projecting my tendency to fee fearful
of
being as big as i am?<<<<<

I usually seek the low profile, the path of least resistance and find support
for this behavior in the passive strength encouraged by the Tao. (Bend and
you won't break.) I do know sometimes that there is a kind of clumsy giant
behind this facade who would be delighted to have a chance to strut and storm
about, pound his chest and intimidate others just for the fun of it. There is
no release for him.

I have just gone through a process of drawing up and presenting a proposal to
my employer regarding a new position, an increase in compensation, and
requests regarding relocation to another office. I watched myself present my
proposal today and was chagrined by how timid and tentative I was, even
though I had given a lot of careful thought to every provision of it.  The
Big Guy in me would have liked a chance to make an appearance.

>>>>>Ron, your comments have always counted -- in Future Culture lately i
just
scan to see if there is something from you.  I also
''sense'' that others look to you and ''count'' you in -- is that my
projection that others look to me?<<<<<

Very possibly. I often feel discounted and dismissed on lists, often by the
other men. It is the women who seem to make an effort to include me in. (When
my plays were being performed in NY last winter, one of them spent a weekend
in NY and actually came to see a performance -- I was stunned by that.) You
on the other hand are very much a presence on the AION list and people do
hold you with a special regard. And I think expect you to "manage" the list
to the benefit of all. Tall order.  

Ron





From ctpost@aol.com Thu Aug 24 01:35:45 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Hello, am I lost?
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 09:35:45 -0400


miles wrote:
 
>>>>>The thing about this type of space in particular is that it gives us a
lot 
more control over how we project ourselves since we can read over our 
words and reconsider wether and how we want what we say to be said don't 
you think. not that it doesn't stop us from being real nervous and 
acrimonious over things that we have said in a forum like this, even 
though we are unlikely to ever meet, an experience that i have had 
recently. but then again sometimes we just think, send send send and be 
damned  <<<<<

I think this medium lets us pretend to be an idealized version of ourselves
(or some other persona entirely), but in my experience, the payback is
limited. When you do that, there's not very much of you in your words that's
actually present for others to respond to. Their response leaves me feeling
empty and lonely because I wasn't really there in the first place. 

I get real nervous sometimes about expressing myself in this medium, too.
I've come to accept that if I try my hardest to say what I deeply feel to be
true, I may confound others, but I know I have spoken in my own voice. And
sometimes hearing your own voice is more reassuring than the sympathetic
response of others. 

A fellow on another list I subscribe to once posted a message very
uncharacteristic of his usual reserve. There was what he took to be a breach
of net etiquette, and he just let fly (send and be damned). Months later,
people still bring it up and kid him about it. It made an indelible
impression, and mostly I think because it was a side of himself that he
normally keeps under wraps, at least on the list. Yet it threw his whole net
personality into three dimensions.  It made him more present, in a way he
hadn't been before.

Ron



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Thu Aug 24 11:09:18 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: Hello, am I lost?
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 12:09:18 +1300 (NDT)



Ron wrote...
>>>> 
> I get real nervous sometimes about expressing myself in this medium, too.
> I've come to accept that if I try my hardest to say what I deeply feel to be
> true, I may confound others, but I know I have spoken in my own voice. And
> sometimes hearing your own voice is more reassuring than the sympathetic
> response of others. 
>>>>
 
  very true. I always like to read over my 'sent mail' 
folder, it helps give me a sense of who i am. probably it is good for the 
soul for me to do so much of this type of writing. particularly the way 
that email encourages me to be a regular letter writer to my friends, 
where otherwise i was appalling. its kinda like a diary in some ways, but so 
disturbing when the email program trys to delete my old sent mail at the 
beginning of every month.


> 
> A fellow on another list I subscribe to once posted a message very
> uncharacteristic of his usual reserve. There was what he took to be a breach
> of net etiquette, and he just let fly (send and be damned). Months later,
> people still bring it up and kid him about it. It made an indelible
> impression, and mostly I think because it was a side of himself that he
> normally keeps under wraps, at least on the list. Yet it threw his whole net
> personality into three dimensions.  It made him more present, in a way he
> hadn't been before.

you know, i think the quiet "intellectually small" person seems to be the 
preferred technique quite amazingly. for example someone announced on 
comp.ai.neural-nets that they had developed an amazing system that was 
'far better' than any other nn system previously designed. they announced 
this fact before they had got rid of all the bugs from the program, and 
they were obviously not professionals in the field. in fact they were the 
general way over exaagerate what they had done type post. what was 
interesting was the way that people reacted to it. instead of flaming an 
obviously idiotic post (if you read it you would believe this point), 
people asked polite questions, suggested that the person try it out on 
some real problem and describe the results to show that they were right, 
and variously tried to get to the bottom of the matter. all in all it was 
clear that the comp.ai.neural-nets group was not at all happy with the 
person but yet they were so polite about it. nevertheless the sheer 
volume of requests for elucidation, points raised and the poor replies 
fairly quickly showed that the person was going way off the deep end. 
fairly much by a sort of socratic method in multiple posts.
 i guess this is what people mean when they say netiquette? i was truly 
stunned to see it in action. not one person replied in an openly  mean or 
unpleasant way. a similar (different person) post in comp.ai.genetic
 received one suggestion that the persons invention was about as brilliant
 as the invention of the chocolate teapot, but.

sorry if i have stated the obvious (ducks head meekly). i hope that 
you are all well.




From ???@??? Thu Aug 24 19:31:05 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ>
Subject: straight from the heart


Dear Stuart,

Thanks for your thoughtful, generous reply to my post. 
 
>>> 
 What's this scrap of rag look like?
<<< 
 
I'm starting with this, though it comes at the end of your post. What you
have written doesn't look like a scrap or a rag. It's not typical of email
because it seems to come directly from the heart; an outpouring of feelings;
feelings that have an integrity because they seem to be honestly expressed. 

>>>
I am desperately wanting to believe that this technology which I profoundly
mistrust, has somewhere the promise of carrying the Psyche to new and
substantially  deeper levels of expression, that through this medium Gaia
moves towards  more global self awareness.  As I write that I feel naiive and
a little small and silly, young...I have to go deeper to search for the right
words and get to know my inner voice more clearly.
<<<

When you speak of your inner voice, I hear an equal mixture of wonder and
fear. And this may go along with your feeling of naivte. Most voices I hear
on the Net have lost touch with this inner voice; can't hear it; don't want
to hear it or acknowledge it. And I rarely read words that have been written
from the heart. Much of it seems to come straight from the top of people's
heads. And there can be plenty of height there, but not much depth.

>>>
Right now the purpose of my writing is to react to what you say, to take
issue with some things, to let you know that...your expression of
yourself...encourages me to believe that " Quality" ( Zen and the Art of
Motorcycle Maintennance) is expressable through this medium. 
<<<

I think Quality is possible, too. And it's expecting of the Net to function
as a medium in the way literature does. Or (what is it that Pirsig calls
them: chattaquas?) a kind of secular sermon or homily -- an expression of
thought after deep reflection. I think often of his analogy of the mechanic
who never exerts force but waits and contemplates whenever he/she meets
resistance. 

>>>
Did you feel you were packaging yourself as you wrote this? What is it like
when you get this response? What do we hide when we write?
<<<

To be honest, I rarely speak unless I want to be heard, and I believe if you
want to be heard you have to speak a language people understand. To that
extent I packaged what I said. But I was aware as I wrote that I was trying
to find words for feelings I would normally not express in this company (ie,
among Net folk), and that I was probably saying something most of them would
take issue with. To use a marketing metaphor--they wouldn't *buy* it. And
judging by the reaction I got, I'd say most didn't. And that was OK. What I
learned from doing it was that expressing what I deeply felt (not
superficially and glibly and entertainingly, as I'm more inclined to do) and
posting it became an end in itself. I felt present here in a way I hadn't
before. Yours and others' responses to what I said were icing on the cake.

>>>
Is length of time the criterio


From dan_randow@link.southern.co.nz Thu Aug 24 20:23:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Re Ron's intro
From: Dan Randow <dan_randow@link.southern.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 20:23:00

-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: PSYBER-NETMAIL) by Walter Logeman using timEd.
Originally from CRandow@chch.computerland.co.nz (3:770/270.10) to Psyber-l.
Original dated: Aug 24 '95, 19:47

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From: CHC-Dan Randow <CRandow@chch.computerland.co.nz>
To: psyber-l@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re Ron's intro



Text item: Text_1

     
     Hello Psybernet
     
     This is about being 'real' in the 'real' world.
     
     Ron, down the track from your introduction you write:
     
     >I think consulting to business organizations is very difficult. 
     Especially as they become more and more cost conscious. In a 
     bean-counting environment, what can't be measured doesn't count. 
     For many, it doesn't exist. It is an enviroment where the worth 
     of anything is measured by market value or projected revenues. It 
     can be done, but in the same way it's possible to see with only 
     one eye. You find yourself in a world of one-eyed people 
     extolling the virtues of two-eyed vision -- failing that -- and 
     adapting, by wearing an eye patch. Something inside dies. At 
     least for me.<
     
     I am reminded of what I have been experiencing very fully in my 
     work recently. I think of it as to do with dualism, separation, 
     an attempted reduction of the world that has been going on for a 
     long time. It manifests itself to me now as a hierarchical 
     corporate crunching machine. You're pissed off. You dump. You're 
     dumped on. You on-dump. Someone else becomes pissed off. It leaks 
     into families.
     
     Friends who went to nastier schools than me report having to say 
     "thank you, sir" after being caned. I found myself doing the same 
     thing in my organisation recently. Felt no anger, no indignity 
     even at the time but a few minutes after leaving the situation I 
     started to feel both VERY! Something inside had been hurt. Right 
     now, my feeling is grief.
     
     Back. So I think I was wearing my eye patch. Through the 
     unpatched eye I saw myself as having failed, being wrong and bad. 
     I hadn't achieved either in the 'business' world or in my own 
     (pathetic) aspirations.
     
     Very thankfully, reading to each other in the evening (sound like 
     we do that all the time?), my partner Mary-Anne and I found a 
     piece by an international marketing person stating very lucidly 
     that the -only- sustainable approach is to integrate all the 
     creative and quality-striving attributes into the production and 
     proclamation of something that embodies all the richness of all 
     that went into it.
     
     And I realised - this is not me. I recalled a little of how three 
     years ago I entered this world deliberately. I could have carried 
     on in the 'soft' sector (sorry) - education, community work, 
     therapy? (all actually almost just as affected) but I chose to 
     come here. I thought I would learn here (true), maybe I would be 
     resourced here (not yet), that I could prove that what I believe 
     is right, it works (perhaps glimmers). It is not surprising that 
     it's a struggle. Not surprising that I plunge to some depths from 
     time to time (or is it true that I tend towards depression?).
     
     This morning I met with some prospective clients. Business people. 
     We spoke about culture, acceptance, the value of involving people 
     who will use technology in creating the technology. I hardly said 
     anything and they 'bought' everything I sell.
     
     This works and is right. It will take time. People will fight it. 
     I'll probably get into fights, too. But it's coming back slowly 
     (surprises me, Ron, it sounds as slow in the US as here) and is 
     going to be big.
     
     I don't mind measurable. I don't mind a dollar oriented bottom 
     line but we gotta get a lot better at measuring the 
     'intermediate' things and linking them with the bottom line. A PC 
     user with a greater sense of 'ownership' of the technology will 
     be more productive. They'll get on better with their family and 
     that'll make them even more productive at work. The organisation 
     will be less likely to deliver bad service and less likely to lie 
     about it if it does. All not to hard to link to measurable.
     
     Not too see that is one-eyed and it's all around us. For me is to 
     keep my eyes open. It is "very difficult" but I think that it's 
     getting easier out there. In here, it gets easier, too, when I 
     see myself with both eyes open and I do that in interaction - 
     Frank the marketer, you Ron (thanks) and this Psybernet - even in 
     my own semi lurking, message-deleting way - helps keep the real 
     me alive.
     
     Dan Randow
     
     Communication and Productivity (and Human Bloody Beauty) 
     Consultant.

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From josh_on@link.southern.co.nz Thu Aug 24 21:04:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: a letter from london town.
From: Josh On <josh_on@link.southern.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 21:04:00

-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: PSYBER-NETMAIL) by Walter Logeman using timEd.
Originally from dee@pawpaw.easynet.co.uk (3:770/270.10) to Walter Logeman.
Original dated: Aug 24 '95, 03:10

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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:29:50 +0000
From: dee@pawpaw.easynet.co.uk
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: a letter from london town.

London is an old city. Computers just don't really seem to work here.
Neither do neon lights.  But when I do put finger to plastic here I do feel
like I am riding the crest of some teleological wave.  On the way home I
must have thepast the past abodes of scores of dead famous dead writers.
And so something does seem right about this, and now that my computer is
aging perhaps I will become more prolific.

Hi Walter, Miles, Stuart and Dan and everyone, I'm Josh.  I was dan.  I
have done a little name change during my extended lurk.  My name is Josh
On.  It is a little bit annoying when I want to put things away at shops by
phone but other than that I like it. I think that it will be one of my
rituals in life.  Everytime That I am 22 I will change my name.

Names are powerful.  I didn't realised how much I thought of myself as dan
or daniel until I changed my name.  I really like what it has done, I still
haven't really grown into Josh but it is a fun process. There is a group of
people in the states called the extropians.  They are very silly, but they
are too serious to notice that.  They are optimistic about their life
expectancy.  Lots of them have changed there names to reflect their
optomism, to names like Max More and Tom Morrow.  what a laugh.  I thought
that this was so beautifully pretentious that I changed my name to Josh On
to celebrate.  Actually I thought of this whole reason afterwards but it is
one of my favourites.

I really like the idea of people naming themselves or being named by their
friends as some sort of ritual.  I like my birth name and still feel very
connected to it but now I like the feeling thatit isn't so sacred.  Names
are really sacred in the sence that that they are so part of you, they are
the ultimate symbol and signifier of you...  So in the West where the
individual is all pervasive your own name is perhaps the most powerful nad
important of all symbols.

I guess it is not really the sacredness of the name that I dislike, it is
mor the way that we deal with sacred things on the whole.  Sacred, means
don't touch, be quiet and donn't question anything, far too often.  I like
the idea of getting really involved in a creative way with the sacred.
Bring sacredness back to life.

Anyway I changed my name one day, I didn't actually mean to as such, I said
it as a joke to a guy I worked with and then decided to keep it up.  Now
some people only know me as Josh On.  Excellent.  But the first real reason
I decided to stick with this name was because it feels like I could become
famous with a name like this.  I would really like that.

Anyway, Hi I am back from a lurk and would like to hang around, as I say my
computer is getting older now so it seems more appropriate to use it here!
Anyway fuck all that, the best place in London is Picadilly Circus because
it has a few neon lights, not enough but it makes it kkind of a sacred
place for me.

See you soon I hope.

Josh





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From josh_on@link.southern.co.nz Thu Aug 24 21:06:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Renditions
From: Josh On <josh_on@link.southern.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 21:06:00

-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: PSYBER-NETMAIL) by Walter Logeman using timEd.
Originally from dee@pawpaw.easynet.co.uk (3:770/270.10) to Walter Logeman.
Original dated: Aug 24 '95, 03:10

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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 15:29:59 +0000
From: dee@pawpaw.easynet.co.uk
To: PSYBER-L@LINK.EQUINOX.GEN.NZ
Subject: Re: Renditions

Hi Miles,

Josh here, I read this and presumed that you were talking to me, and not
the other dan:

>turns out that 80% of the cost was people accessing nude pictures, so the
>sooner the net gets it together so that these sites can be banned from
>our system while maintaing access to rest the sooner
>the uni will be able to afford to bring back the World wide Web, and the
>sooner i'll be happy. BUT i don't want to seem like holier than them
>about it because there was an occasion i took to checking them out myself,
>i'm not sure why. definitely bad, though maybe i can put it down to idle
>curiousity although i wouldn't be suprised if Dan never talks to me ever
>ever again because i'm saying this. i guess this is the sort of thing that
>might

The only reason I might not talk or write to you Miles is that I am getting
really bad at writing letters, and I am feel so silly about it that I have
started to blame the city I live in for it!

I don't like pornography as it stands.  It seems to deeply embedded within
the abuse of women and the objectification of everything.  By that i guess
I mean the mentality that everything can be purchased and owned.

As it could stand?



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From waerwolf@link.southern.co.nz Thu Aug 24 21:52:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz>
Subject: Maybe I'm not lost after all...
From: WaerWolf <waerwolf@link.southern.co.nz>
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 21:52:00

-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: PSYBER-NETMAIL) by Walter Logeman using timEd.
Originally from waerwolf@lava.net (3:770/270.10) to Psyber-l.
Original dated: Aug 24 '95, 19:47

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Date: Wed, 23 Aug 1995 19:20:53 -1000
To: psyber-l@link.equinox.gen.nz
From: waerwolf@lava.net (WaerWolf)
Subject: Maybe I'm not lost after all...

As far as meekness, I don;t know... I think (with me anyway) it may not be
so much >afraid< to post, but rather, I feel like there's not much to
contribute (at least, not much that hasn't been said). 
 
[I know, I don't quote reply text either. Please kick me later :)] 
 
By intellectually small, I don't mean that I think I'm intellectually
lacking, but more that perhaps I'm not as eloquent, or as experienced as the
"big" posters... (Of course, that may be entirely true... ) 
 
But here's something funny... I usually send exactly what I type.. No
rewrites, no editing (unless there's a gross typo)... Maybe that's just a
carry-over from my Citadel days, but I sort of feel like it lends a raw
feeling... Not sterilized by some self-imposed censorship (perhaps too harsh
a term, but...)
 
Also, Most of my thinking is done while I'm typing (you can probably see
this in anything I write). So, I may even contradict myself in the beginning
and end of a post... Although, I try to avoid that.... 
 
Anyway, I don't mean to imply that "How do you perceive me?" is a motto or
anything. I'm not too terribly concerned with other people's opinions of me
(especially if they're wrong >:P), but I will admit that if you act like an
ass, you will be perceived as one, and, well, you probably are.
 
Not that there's anything wrong with that, if you really want to live your
life in isolation, or with other equally obnoxious people...

Anyway, I have now fully forgotten what I was replying to, if anything, and
seem to have wandered far afield...
 
 



                                        <WW>


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From ctpost@aol.com Fri Aug 25 09:11:53 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: hello, am I lost?
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 17:11:53 -0400


Subj:   Re: Hello, am I lost?
Date:   Wed, Aug 23, 1995 6:22 PM EST
From:  miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz
X-From: miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz (Miles Thompson)
To: ctpost@aol.com
CC:  (Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L)


Miles wrote...
>>>> you know, i think the quiet "intellectually small" person seems to be
the 
preferred technique quite amazingly.  
 
[example of guy who makes dubious claim in news group] 

instead of flaming an 
obviously idiotic post (if you read it you would believe this point), 
people asked polite questions, suggested that the person try it out on 
some real problem and describe the results to show that they were right, 
and variously tried to get to the bottom of the matter [snip] 
not one person replied in an openly  mean or unpleasant way. <<<

I think it takes a *big person* to respond with such patience. It amazes me,
too, how considerate some people are of others on the net, when flaming is so
much eaiser to do. America Online gets its share of religious fundamentalists
who barge in on boards to preach and threaten fire and brimstone on anyone
who departs from what they consider to be the Will of God. I have read with
complete wonderment the posts of people who respond to these outbursts with
thoughtful and carefully chosen words, trying to get them to engage in
something like rational discourse. Usually unsuccessfully. But they keep
trying.



----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
>From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz  Wed Aug 23 19:25:03 1995
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Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 12:09:18 +1300 (NDT)
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: Hello, am I lost?
To: ctpost@aol.com
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From ctpost@aol.com Fri Aug 25 09:12:38 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Stereoscopy
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 17:12:38 -0400



Dan,

I really appreciated your comments. And I'm glad you took the time to express
them. Leaving the *soft* sector and finding a place in the hard-nosed
business sector -- can I identify with that! 

>>>It will take time. People will fight it. 
     I'll probably get into fights, too. But it's coming back slowly 
     (surprises me, Ron, it sounds as slow in the US as here) and is 
     going to be big.<<<<

Not sure what you're saying here. What's going to be big?
     
>>>I don't mind measurable. I don't mind a dollar oriented bottom 
     line but we gotta get a lot better at measuring the 
     'intermediate' things and linking them with the bottom line.<<<

I agree. It's hard for business people to see the true costs of their
policies and practices. They can't see that something they're neglecting now
-- like employee morale -- may cost them in the future. Or they can't see a
pay-off in the future for an investment they could be making now. I think
there's been a growing cynicism about employees that's no different from the
revolt against welfare. Hell, if they can't look after themselves, fuck 'em. 

Dan, I welcome your stereoscopic encouragement and news of your struggles and
successes, and I would like to keep the dialogue going here.

Ron



From crandow@chch.computerland.co.nz Fri Aug 25 13:06:55 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Stereoscopy
From: CHC-Dan Randow <crandow@chch.computerland.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 95 13:06:55



     
     Ron
     
     I'm glad to be talking here too.
     
>>>It will take time. People will fight it.
     I'll probably get into fights, too. But it's coming back slowly 
     (surprises me, Ron, it sounds as slow in the US as here) and is 
     going to be big.<<<<
     
>>>>Not sure what you're saying here. What's going to be big?<<<<
     
     The stereo(+)scopic(+) view of an organisation as a living 
     organism with health (social, cultural and spiritual) that 
     ultimately count on the bottom line. And more importantly as 
     a career motivator for me, the market for specialist 
     services in organisational "health and fitness" 
     facilitation.
     
>>>I don't mind measurable. I don't mind a dollar oriented bottom
     line but we gotta get a lot better at measuring the 
     'intermediate' things and linking them with the bottom line.<<<
     
>>>>I agree. It's hard for business people to see the true costs of their 
policies and practices. They can't see that something they're neglecting now 
-- like employee morale -- may cost them in the future. Or they can't see a 
pay-off in the future for an investment they could be making now. I think 
there's been a growing cynicism about employees that's no different from the 
revolt against welfare. Hell, if they can't look after themselves, fuck 
'em.<<<<
     
I'm alarmed to hear this seems to be as rampant in your part of the world as 
mine. I do live in pretty conservative small (300k) city. Most of the 
inspiring literature I read does come from the US. Let's say Tom Peters as 
the first example. 

Yes, we do have the new right anti-welfare drift and we've sacked half our 
staff to cut costs.  Maybe I'm over optimistic, but to me, there are the 
glimmerings of recognition that the remaining people must be well resourced 
if they are going to do all the communication and production all the sacked 
people (usu middle mgrs) did.  Technology is regularly thrown at this 
problem but largely doesn't work without knitting it in to the social and 
cultural systems and pocesses in the org.  People seem to be recognising 
this. It seeps into the mgt and computer press and our customers are 
certainly buying more training.
     
What particularly excites me about working with technology in organisations 
is the opportunity to slide in orgnl health work under the guise of 
increasing efficiency and productivity. It gets me past not having the 
slightest credible qualification or track record in 'organisational 
development' and past the fact that most mrgs would run a mile from doing 
OD.
     
Lots of the talk about email here in Psybernet is about internet email - in 
my work I am doing the same thing about in-house email with people who don't 
want to be awakened to the cyberworld, they just want to get their job done 
in the face of more pressure and a distributed organisation.
     
The signals I'm getting now (more from outside than within my own 
organisation) are that there is demand for this. My own organisation, 
ironically has the hunt and kill approach - aiming one-eyed for the 
next good month. Makes it a hard place to be at times and hard to keep 
my values and optimism alive. 

But I do. I think that connectedness that technology brings us will 
inevitably bring more appreciation of diversity and magic into our 
corporate culture because of the vastly greater participation in the 
construction of reality. Even in western music, the performer/audience 
boundaries (only a recent phenomenon) are now receding.

Ron, please tell me some good news!
     
     Dan



From walter@ Fri Aug 25 15:33:42 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Re: (re) Lost in cyberspace
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 15:33:42

Hi Stephen Calhoun,

> amplifications/derivations of the word net:

Thank you Steven for a good bit of research here

Netymology:

> OHG: nezzi-to bind --- L:nodus-knot --- OIr:nascim-I bind ---
> L:nassa-fish basket --- SKRT: nahyati-to knot, weave
> 
> net derived from neat:
> 
> ME, MF:netir, net-neat, trim (fr: bright) --- L: nitere-shine
> ---OIr: noib-holy --- OPersian: naiba-beautiful
> 
> excerpt from An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Traditional
> Symbols", J.C. Cooper, pg.111 q>--Net/Network--<
> 
> Ensnaring' entanglement; the attribute and property of all Gods
> who bind and the ensnaring, negative aspect of the Great
> Mother, who is often the Goddess of Nets. Network is symbolic
> of a complex relationship beyond a mere space-time sequence,
> unlimited relationship; a structure formed of the visible and
> the invisible; it is also unity. Christian: ambivalent as the
> unbreakable net of the Church, and the ensnaring net of the
> devil. An attribute of the disciples as the fishers of men.
> Graeco-Roman: An attribute of Hephaestos/Vulcan as smith gods
> and gods who bind. In the orphic fish cult, like the Semitic,
> the net is the Word of divinity, "the great net encircling
> heaven and earth". Sumero-Semitic: Bel is invoked as 'the
> catching net' and Marduk overcomes Tiam with a net; Ishtar is
> the Goddess of the net.
> 
> Comment: Binding->capturing->boundaries->unity...and also being
> caught up in maya.
> 
> I'll f/u with research results about myths involving nets. 

One thing about nets is the interconnection and symbols are like that -- everything is a symbol for everything else.  I much prefer the focus on net imagery for cyberspace than Grail imagery.  I think it is that I see the correspondence to the feminine -- the godess in the net imagery and that is why was delighted with your research.  Also with your comment on the feminine aspects of this list.  The psychological -- even in its current most distorted forms -- must invite that aspect.  

> >The net has provided a medium where many - all across the
> >globe can relate "inside to inside".
> 
> The hunger to connect has great explanatory power whether you
> talk about communities on the net, the "unwed" mother in the
> ghetto, the breakdown of institutions, or its shadow side: i.e.
> (of the) participation mystique, etc.

what do you mean here by participation mysique?  My therapist used it once -- but I don't think he knew exactly what it was -- is it a reference to something from Jung?  And why is it the shadow of connection?  

All these words are powerful -- connection, that deserves a bit of research.  yes there is a hunger for it, and the addiction to this medium is about that.

> >This is such a fallacy that this medium is not intimate. 
> 
> The misconceptions of people who haven't used the net. It's
> prospect of intimacy is the most pleasant surprise for (this)
> newbie. 
> 
> >as it leads to looking for the numinous ''up there'' while I
> >am >attracted (as you have acknowledged) to the traditions
> >(mainly    >through mu reading of Hillman) which look for the
> >numinous down >there in the deep! 
> 
> But, can being active on the net be an obstacle to the quest
> when your computer is turned off? As Hillman puts it: how to go
> into the valley? 

I feel in cyberspace with the computer off or not,   just like I feel connected to my partner, whether she is here or not.  If I go into the valley and the shade -- on or off line then it will relate.

> My simple test: would I like to meet my cyber pen pals in
> person, Spend a day sitting around the campfire? (as for you
> Walter:yes!) 

That feels good -- I would like to pursue it here more first!  Strange -- I think I have become digital.  I don't even like printing out e-mail!  

> My question is: What kind of good works can the net
> facillitate? 

Good question.


Look forward to hearing from you.  


Walter 



From walter@ Fri Aug 25 15:49:50 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.equinox.gen.nz
Subject: Welcome
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 15:49:50

Welcome.

As there have been a lot of new subscribers I am posting an
exerpt from the Psybernet WWW pages -- to help us get a feel
for the project.  



             ==  Psybernet is born of this media. ==

It is not a book, research, or a resource, it is not therapy,
not a community, or a mall or a plaza, a classroom, a library,
a cafe, a journey, an encyclopedia, a road show, a theatre, a
psychodrama stage, a consulting room, nor is it he meeting place
in Athens: the Agora. 

Psybernet has aspects of all of these. 

It is an experiential search. The search for soul in this
media, a psychology of cyberspace. These are the Psyberspace
Probes. There is the allusion to McLuhan who valued probes as a
style of work. A probe can go deep and reveal things, but it is
not a theory, it does not have to be right or wrong. It does not
have the commitment of a journey. A probe can be the work of a
newsgroup or mailing list. It can be a poem or an essay, or
other art form. How we make these experiences here is something
we are learning. 

This is an invitation to participate. If you are curious about
the effect of the media on our evolution and on the collective
unconscious -- join the Psybernet Conference -- mailing list.





From hoon@apk.net Sat Aug 26 02:31:51 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: (re) Lost in cyberspace
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 10:31:51 -0400


At 3:34 PM 8/25/95, Walter Logeman wrote:

>One thing about nets is the interconnection and symbols are like that --
>everything is a symbol for everything else.  I much prefer the focus on
>net imagery for cyberspace than Grail imagery.  I think it is that I see
>the correspondence to the feminine -
>-
> the godess in the net imagery and that is why was delighted with your
>research.  Also with your comment on the feminine aspects of this list.
>The psychological -- even in its current most distorted forms -- must
>invite that aspect.
>
>> >The net has provided a medium where many - all across the
>> >globe can relate "inside to inside".

Part and parcel of a hunger for self-revelation, perhaps even driven by the
unconscious drive for *Self* revelation.
>>
>> The hunger to connect has great explanatory power whether you
>> talk about communities on the net, the "unwed" mother in the
>> ghetto, the breakdown of institutions, or its shadow side: i.e.
>> (of the) participation mystique, etc.
>
>what do you mean here by participation mysique?  My therapist used it once
>-- but I don't think he knew exactly what it was -- is it a reference to
>something from Jung?  And why is it the shadow of connection?

I'll explain w/o going into the library. Participation Mystique refers to
an individual's unthinking/unfeeling identification with the norms of any
collective i.e. group. Jung borrowed the term from Levi-Straus who coined
it to explain the phenomenom whereby aspects of the group consciousness
were turned into fetishes, etc.

It is the shadow side of a discriminating participation. Also, the persona
itself often will become integrated with the identification...one example
is the company man. Although such identification does not necessarily
disallow the deeper penetration of outward symbols, it seems that often the
symbol activates the more shadowy complexes in a one-sided manner. A
current example is the fetishization of the American flag in which it
becomes a carrier for a huge store of meanings, extending into a sort of
numinous realm in which the flag represents democracy, or freedom, or
liberty, or the American way. Yet, such ideals, ideas cannot be brought
into life through the flag. Again, there is a hunger at work. To step back
and look at the controversy we might observe one side holding that their
*love* of the flag is self-evident and thus the flag must be protected, and
the other side wondering how protecting the flag can possibly help protect
the values it stands for.

This appears to me to be a central phenomenom of our times. It's
implications given that there are now cyber collectives are worth
examining.

>> >as it leads to looking for the numinous ''up there'' while I
>> >am >attracted (as you have acknowledged) to the traditions
>> >(mainly    >through mu reading of Hillman) which look for the
>> >numinous down >there in the deep!
>>
>> But, can being active on the net be an obstacle to the quest
>> when your computer is turned off? As Hillman puts it: how to go
>> into the valley?
>
>I feel in cyberspace with the computer off or not,   just like I feel
>connected to my partner, whether she is here or not.  If I go into the
>valley and the shade -- on or off line then it will relate.

Please go into this in more detail if you wish. Fascinating, but what is it
to *feel in cyberspace*?


God made man because                    | Stephen Calhoun
he loves stories.                       |
*yiddish saying                         | in Cleveland, Ohio





From ctpost@aol.com Sat Aug 26 08:31:06 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Stereoscopy
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 16:31:06 -0400


Dan,

Your comments greatly appreciated. 

>>>The stereo(+)scopic(+) view of an organisation as a living 
     organism with health (social, cultural and spiritual) that 
     ultimately count on the bottom line. And more importantly as 
     a career motivator for me, the market for specialist 
     services in organisational "health and fitness" 
     facilitation.<<<

I was hoping you meant this. I'm always glad to find people who have
aspirations in this direction and have kept the faith.  

A factor influencing my own perception of this subject is that I work in a
business that is particularly resistant to what you're describing -- the
orgnizational model is much like an ad agency, where the talents of creative
people are brokered by account executives whose basic skills are more in the
area of client management and sales, not the creative product itself. There
is a vast disparity in compensation across the organization, heavy dependance
on hierarchy to get things done, an obsession with revenues, and a Darwinian
ethic of *what's in this for me* and survival of the fittest. I think there's
a belief that employees should be fearful; otherwise they'll slack off.

I probably went about this the wrong way, but I initiated an employee
attitude survey among the 15 or so people in my group about 5 years ago. The
results highlighted a lot of morale issues: people were frustrated and not
optimistic. They sensed a general drift of management into an adversarial
relationship with them. I was then transferred for 2 years to another office,
and though the survey results were meant to be a benchmark against future
surveys, the whole idea was scrapped and nothing was done. Now that I'm back,
I'd say the adversarial shift is complete and irreversible. The attitude at
the top tends to be: You should be glad you have a job. The homeless are
outside in the street as a reminder that things could be a lot worse.

Corporate cultures of this stripe are being perpetuated, I think, by a new
generation of employees who buy into this whole arrangement from the start.
They are referred to disparagingly by some I know as *Hitler Youth.* And,
yes, I do find them both pathetic and scary.

The faith one has to have is that natural selection will choose those
businesses who develop rather than exploit employees. And that when the
writing is on the wall, you'll be there ready and waiting with the Gospel
according to Dan.

Ron  





From ctpost@aol.com Sat Aug 26 08:35:09 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: company man
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 16:35:09 -0400


Stephen Calhoun writes

>>>Participation Mystique refers to
an individual's unthinking/unfeeling identification with the norms of any
collective i.e. group. Jung borrowed the term from Levi-Straus who coined
it to explain the phenomenom whereby aspects of the group consciousness
were turned into fetishes, etc.

It is the shadow side of a discriminating participation. Also, the persona
itself often will become integrated with the identification...one example
is the company man.<<<

Stephen, could you explore the company man idea further in this context? When
a company encourages employees to buy in unquestioningly to its stated
mission, vision, values, is it making an appeal to the shadow side?

thx,
Ron 



From ctpost@aol.com Sat Aug 26 08:35:20 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: lost in space
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 16:35:20 -0400


Walter writes,

>>>I feel in cyberspace with the computer off or not,   just like I feel
connected to my partner, whether she is here or not. <<<

This describes my experience of being in the middle of writing a script. The
characters inhabit my thoughts as vividly as friends and family. The scenes
they are involved in have the same realitiy as my own memories of actual
events. And when a script is done, I begin to miss the characters as if they
were real people. (When they are realized on the stage by actors, it is like
watching a docudrama -- only a representation of the real thing.) 

Quoting a novelist, whose name I've forgotten: *Sometimes I prefer the
company of people who aren't there.*  Cyberspace is like that. 

Ron



From hoon@apk.net Sat Aug 26 16:18:46 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: (2)Re: company man
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 00:18:46 -0400


At 4:35 PM 8/25/95, ctpost@aol.com wrote:
>Stephen Calhoun writes

>It is the shadow side of a discriminating participation. Also, the persona
>itself often will become integrated with the identification...one example
>is the company man.<<<
>
>Stephen, could you explore the company man idea further in this context? When
>a company encourages employees to buy in unquestioningly to its stated
>mission, vision, values, is it making an appeal to the shadow side?
>

Let me clarify by somewhat speculative remarks. The shadow side may simply
be reformulated as that which is in darkness, or unconscious, unlived. I'm
sure the trained Jungian might refine this comment. The compensation out of
this shadow for an identification with, say in a business context, the
*bottom line* obsession, and the concomitant hyper-rationality that is
glorified as the bottom line's shining knight protector is, ironically, a
totally debased feeling or a childish impulsiveness, that might be seen to
work over time to drag the hyper-rationality and obsession back to earth.
The tension has a purpose.

So, the broad appeal that might be integrated with a so-called
participation mystique has to be viewed as projection and re-projection,
and not just buying into a received norm. The *company man* might be said
to have very little sense of irony, or ability to detach him/her self. This
lack of perspective and balance and worldliness and, especially,
introspection, appears to an observer as an obviously excessive zeal. His
rationalizations to meet any problem or prospect are practiced; tougher
questions are just not understood or met with silence. Oddly, one should
note such rote responses represent both a lack of feeling and the shadow
side of thinking which is routine, pseudo-logical, opinionated. The result
is even the most hyper-rational Saturnian organization can appear to the
discriminating outside observer as being riven with poor thinking, received
ill-wisdom, and *unassailable* authorities. Remember the Peter Principle;
whereby one is promoted from success into positions for which one is
incompetent?

If some business person says, and this was said to me recently, that *all
that matters is making money* what possibly can one say in response? Money,
mana, the bottom line, no matter what you call it, is first a symbol and
secondly something you spend. Cha-ching, indeed.

IMO the appeal to the job-holder put in terms of the homeless shows the
damaged parental imagos at work: paternal...swim or sink; maternal: we'll
take care of you unlike those...orphans out on the street...who we
abandoned.

Obviously this is a subject that interests me greatly. So let me ask a few
questions.

(1) If the problem and promise of the puer is central to male psychology,
and perhaps may be said to be central to our era, what kind of effects do
we see the different manifestations of this psychology helping to provoke
in organizations?

(2) The challenge for creative people is twofold. How do they participate
in an organization that day in and day out asks them to compromise or even
give up valuable pieces of themselves? Why don't organizational directors
consciously use the different functions of creative people to release
stopped up energies within the organization?

(3) What do you think about the prospect in our century-turning era that it
is self-selecting business leadership which has the best opportunity to
lead the social institutions they caretake toward greater self-awareness
and greater individuation?

There is much to say on these subjects and I'll hope to post some reference
points soon. Ron, you've hit upon one place my energy wants to go which is
toward considering what a fully *anima*ted organization might be like; in
terms of this group, what a fully *anima*ted cyberspace might be like!



God made man because                    | Stephen Calhoun
he loves stories.                       |
*yiddish saying                         | in Cleveland, Ohio





From walter@ Sat Aug 26 17:40:06 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
Subject: Re: (re) Lost in cyberspace
From: Self <walter>
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 17:40:06

Stephen and all,

> >> >The net has provided a medium where many - all across the
> >> >globe can relate "inside to inside".
> 
> Part and parcel of a hunger for self-revelation, perhaps even
> driven by the unconscious drive for *Self* revelation. 

Knowing self and other are very close, as we keep noticing to
here (in Psybernet ), knowing self through the projections we
make and take, and adjust and readjust.  If there was ever a
path for knowing the self through solitary life, then the being
alone here also has some of that.  

participation mystique.

Thanks for the elucidation.  I am intrigued.  It is beyond
''peer pressure'' and also beyond being in a cult -- yet close
to those.  I also thought of brand loyalty.  Perhaps there is
something of the participation mystique in the affiliation with
OSs.  Mac/IBM etc.

> It is the shadow side of a discriminating participation. 

Does that mean it can't be avoided?  Shadow sounds bad, but
only Peter Pan did not have one (for a while).  In the Aion
group we are moving on from the Shadow, but I am still hanging
on here!

The symbol is a way of uniting people to a cause.  I have a
high regard for the William Morris fire screen motif I have
been using for Psybernet.  It seems to say the whole thing for
me in a symbol -- it is only recently that I even know who he
was, the picture came first.  It is still OK to have it there. 

I'm doing my usual -- relating the abstract (the notion of
participation mystique) to the here and now in this Psybernet
Conference and project.  I want people to participate with
discrimination -- to even have some sense of community (nasty
word) and at the same time not to ''belong'' -- I think that
word reveals a lot about the shadow side of the participation
mystique, as I am beginning to see it.

> This appears to me to be a central phenomenon of our times.
> It's implications given that there are now cyber collectives
> are worth examining.

Cyber collectives -- that avoids the nasty word!  Community
must be OK, but it has been the shadow that has got me a lot --
so excuse the slight note of venom.


The experience of cyberspace

> Please go into this in more detail if you wish. Fascinating,
> but what is it to *feel in cyberspace*?

I think it has always been there -- as came up at the beginning
of this thread.  At some point we evolved the ability to
imagine.  Then we used symbols to invoke the imagination.  When
it is suitably invoked then we are in a virtual space/place --
ritual is medium of invocation -- the dance of the hunt -- the
communion.  This is a medium -- text and letters e-mail, and so
what does it feel like?  What is it to *feel in cyberspace*? It
is not the software or hard ware or actual e-mails even.

I experience this phase of Psybernet (a place in cyberspace) as
being a coming event.  I see people preparing to come -- most
don't yet know they are moving here.  some of us are closer,
but it is still not there, also preparing.  It is a meeting - a
gathering under some trees -- a sort of original university.  A
concert -- and the scaffolding is being erected.  The sound
system is being tested.   I experience this as I see people
grapple with leadership on lists, inventing forms that work,
pioneering on their own with no assistance from each other.  No
one is asking -- they don't know the questions.


Thanx  Stephen

Walter.







From waerwolf@lava.net Sat Aug 26 18:25:37 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: (re) Lost in cyberspace
From: WaerWolf <waerwolf@lava.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 20:25:37 -1000


hoon wrote:

>I'll explain w/o going into the library. Participation Mystique refers to
>an individual's unthinking/unfeeling identification with the norms of any
>collective i.e. group. Jung borrowed the term from Levi-Straus who coined
>it to explain the phenomenom whereby aspects of the group consciousness
>were turned into fetishes, etc.
>
>It is the shadow side of a discriminating participation. Also, the persona
>itself often will become integrated with the identification...one example
>is the company man. Although such identification does not necessarily
>disallow the deeper penetration of outward symbols, it seems that often the
>symbol activates the more shadowy complexes in a one-sided manner. A
>current example is the fetishization of the American flag in which it
>becomes a carrier for a huge store of meanings, extending into a sort of
>numinous realm in which the flag represents democracy, or freedom, or
>liberty, or the American way. Yet, such ideals, ideas cannot be brought
>into life through the flag. Again, there is a hunger at work. To step back
>and look at the controversy we might observe one side holding that their
>*love* of the flag is self-evident and thus the flag must be protected, and
>the other side wondering how protecting the flag can possibly help protect
>the values it stands for.
>
>This appears to me to be a central phenomenom of our times. It's
>implications given that there are now cyber collectives are worth
>examining.
>
>>> >as it leads to looking for the numinous ''up there'' while I
>>> >am >attracted (as you have acknowledged) to the traditions
>>> >(mainly    >through mu reading of Hillman) which look for the
>>> >numinous down >there in the deep!
>>>
>>> But, can being active on the net be an obstacle to the quest
>>> when your computer is turned off? As Hillman puts it: how to go
>>> into the valley?
>>
>>I feel in cyberspace with the computer off or not,   just like I feel
>>connected to my partner, whether she is here or not.  If I go into the
>>valley and the shade -- on or off line then it will relate.
>
>Please go into this in more detail if you wish. Fascinating, but what is it
>to *feel in cyberspace*?
>

It seems as though you answered your question before you asked it...
 
Perhaps "I feel in cyberspace with the computer off or not" is the
connectedness, or "participation mystique" of which you speak.
 
Not too over-rate the online experience, but all of are part of a community,
which we understand and relate to, but which "outsiders" puzzle over. They
make movies about "The Net", "Virtuosity", "Hackers".... All of the
cyberpunk novels are about us, after a fashion... So, perhaps just by
posting to a newsgroup, or even lurking, we feel we are part of a special
group... 
 
Participation mystique?
 
And, while it may not be particularly healthy, there are alot of us who see
life as a series of interruptions in our online session... 
So, I don't doubt that people feel connected to cyberspace (as though it
existed physically...) even when they're offline...
 
Or, back to earth, I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps. Even when I wasn't
in uniform, and off base where perhaps no one knew I was a Marine (just like
short hair!), I was still a Marine. I still felt  the "connectedness"
 
Is that much different from being on here? Sure, you say, the Marine Corps
took you thruough 3 months of intense character moulding to make you a
Marine, and no one has beaten anyone on the Net (probably). But, in my
theory, as this is a realm of the mind, perhaps we've all been moulded by
the minds and messages of those who have come before us...
 
[I'm topic drifting again...]



                                        <WW>




From hoon@apk.net Sun Aug 27 00:39:46 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: (re) Lost in cyberspace
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 08:39:46 -0400


At 5:40 PM 8/26/95, Walter Logeman wrote:
>Stephen and all,

>something of the participation mystique in the affiliation with
>OSs.  Mac/IBM etc.

I'm wondering if there is a smaller everyday version of this phenomenom.
But, having tried to expound upon PM, I'm now feeling dissatisfied with how
it might be applied to lesser events. Participation mystique is along the
lines of *group think* and is predictable as such. One gives their
thinking/feeling up to the group. Lesser forms of identification aren't the
same.
>
>> It is the shadow side of a discriminating participation.
>
>Shadow sounds bad, but only Peter Pan did not have one (for a while).  In
>the >Aion group we are moving on from the Shadow, but I am still hanging
>on here!

Is not the shadow an essential ingrediant of the opus?  As Robert Bly
suggests, the contents of the black bag may become less of a weight over
time, but we're throwing good and bad stuff in the bag all the time. I
observe a shadow process at work every day in my life, for example. Little
uprisings..reminders that I'm on a road, that both alertness and surrender
are required.

>The symbol is a way of uniting people to a cause.  I have a
>high regard for the William Morris fire screen motif I have
>been using for Psybernet.  It seems to say the whole thing for
>me in a symbol -- it is only recently that I even know who he
>was, the picture came first.  It is still OK to have it there.
>
Can you post a GIF?

>at the same time not to ''belong'' -- I think that
>word reveals a lot about the shadow side of the participation
>mystique, as I am beginning to see it.

Is the shadow of belonging the lock-step of the cult? The breaking-in
period starts out with sleep deprivation...no dreams allowed. Objective:
no opposites, no push and pull, no tension?

>> It's implications given that there are now cyber collectives
>> are worth examining.
>
>Cyber collectives -- that avoids the nasty word!  Community
>must be OK, but it has been the shadow that has got me a lot --
>so excuse the slight note of venom.
>
Soon we'll be able to imbed graphics in our email. You could show the
snake, as Eudora does when I check and have no mail. Cyber-Community,
Cyber-village, Cyber-cult, Cyber-karass, Cyber-circus...hmmm.

>The experience of cyberspace
>
>> Please go into this in more detail if you wish. Fascinating,
>> but what is it to *feel in cyberspace*?
>
>it is suitably invoked then we are in a virtual space/place --
>ritual is medium of invocation -- the dance of the hunt -- the
>communion.  This is a medium -- text and letters e-mail, and so
>what does it feel like?  What is it to *feel in cyberspace*? It
>is not the software or hard ware or actual e-mails even.
>
>I experience this phase of Psybernet (a place in cyberspace) as
>being a coming event.  I see people preparing to come -- most
>don't yet know they are moving here.  some of us are closer,
>but it is still not there, also preparing.  It is a meeting - a
>gathering under some trees -- a sort of original university.  A
>concert -- and the scaffolding is being erected.  The sound
>system is being tested.   I experience this as I see people
>grapple with leadership on lists, inventing forms that work,
>pioneering on their own with no assistance from each other.  No
>one is asking -- they don't know the questions.
>
Fantastic food for thought. It's morning here --midwest-USA-- and you've
provided me with breakfast. Thanks.

the reverse side                        | Stephen Calhoun
also has a reverse side.                  |
*zen proverb                            | in Cleveland, Ohio





From hoon@apk.net Sun Aug 27 00:43:55 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: (re) Lost in cyberspace
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 08:43:55 -0400


At 8:25 PM 8/25/95, WaerWolf wrote:

>>>I feel in cyberspace with the computer off or not,   just like I feel

>It seems as though you answered your question before you asked it...
>
>Perhaps "I feel in cyberspace with the computer off or not" is the
>connectedness, or "participation mystique" of which you speak.
>
>So, perhaps just by posting to a newsgroup, or even lurking, we feel we
>are >part of a special group...
>
>Participation mystique?

The hardware and software add up to a puzzle in outsider's minds, but the
idea of sending mail into a *web of correspondants* is easy to explain. My
personal feeling about PSYBER-L is that it is an opportunity to sustain a
dialogue among particularly thoughtful people, hopefully *not* like-minded.
Not any PM here, IMO.

As posted earlier, what is this hunger-to-commune about?
>
>So, I don't doubt that people feel connected to cyberspace (as though it
>existed physically...) even when they're offline...
>But, in my theory, as this is a realm of the mind, perhaps we've all been
>moulded by the minds and messages of those who have come before us...
>
Which suggests the shared aspect at an archetypal level, and, too, de
Chardin's point omega. The *mind space*; *heart space*; *soul
space*...sharing the soul, even?

Speaking as a newbie...it sure has been interesting running into the
gatekeepers in certain USENET realms. And, I was fortunate to have a friend
who is a long time internet user who encourages participation, facilitates
an end to being intimidated by, as it turns out, the *not particularly
esoteric* tools and procedures of the net. Yet, he himself is not at all
compelled by the social aspect of the net.


the reverse side                        | Stephen Calhoun
also has a reverse side.                  |
*zen proverb                            | in Cleveland, Ohio





From ctpost@aol.com Sun Aug 27 08:49:53 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: (re) Lost in cyberspace
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:49:53 -0400


Walter writes,

>>>I want people to participate with
discrimination -- to even have some sense of community (nasty
word) and at the same time not to ''belong'' -- I think that
word reveals a lot about the shadow side of the participation
mystique, as I am beginning to see it.<<<

I've felt myself drifting toward this idea, too. My own objection to the word
*community* in cyberspace is that the word implies people living together and
having to negotiate all the messy aspects of that. Cyber-community seems to
be living together without all the messy parts that go along with having to
deal with people's physical presence and physical needs. 

I'm reminded of Kurt Vonnegut's notion of the *granfaloon*, exhibited by
strangers who feel they can be chummy with you if you happen to have some odd
factor in common, like both being from Indiana.

>>>Cyber collectives -- that avoids the nasty word!<<<

Not sure I feel any better with this one, but it is probably a more accurate
way to describe the phenomenon. The following image, however, captures it
nicely. I like this. You make it feel a little like being one of the first
people pitching a tent at Woodstock.

>>>I experience this phase of Psybernet (a place in cyberspace) as
being a coming event.  I see people preparing to come -- most
don't yet know they are moving here.  some of us are closer,
but it is still not there, also preparing.  It is a meeting - a
gathering under some trees -- a sort of original university.  A
concert -- and the scaffolding is being erected.  The sound
system is being tested.   I experience this as I see people
grapple with leadership on lists, inventing forms that work,
pioneering on their own with no assistance from each other.  No
one is asking -- they don't know the questions.<<<

Thanx  Walter.

Ron





From ctpost@aol.com Sun Aug 27 08:50:02 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: company man
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 1995 16:50:02 -0400


Stephen,

When I pressed the send button on the following: 

>>>When
>a company encourages employees to buy in unquestioningly to its stated
>mission, vision, values, is it making an appeal to the shadow side?
<<< 

I sensed there was something wrong with the question. I should have asked:
What kind of shadow comes into being in an organization where employees are
overtly and systematically encouraged to adopt a prescribed mission, vision,
and company values? 

As a consultant to large businesses, I encounter many different kinds of
corporate cultures, and see this sort of dynamic going on in many of them.
The "company way" used to be something you had to infer from the behavior of
others in the organization; now there is usually an ongoing program that
formalizes all this stuff and imposes it top-down in a variety of ways --
indoctrination is the word -- rather more like the way cults, closed
political systems and religious groups operate. And this professed company
doctrine often exists side by side with an unacknowledged one that more
accurately represents the company's culture. 

I remember interviewing for a company once that ran me through 2-3 days of
interviews in the regional and corporate offices, plus an extensive screening
by the company psychologist, deciding finally that I was not *the right fit*.
I can only wonder what sort of shadow is cast by a company so thorough at
weeding out the potential misfits. 

Anyway, on to your cogent comments:

>>>The compensation out of
this shadow for an identification with, say in a business context, the
*bottom line* obsession, and the concomitant hyper-rationality that is
glorified as the bottom line's shining knight protector is, ironically, a
totally debased feeling or a childish impulsiveness, that might be seen to
work over time to drag the hyper-rationality and obsession back to earth.
The tension has a purpose.<<<

It sounds like what you're saying is that a balancing act is going on, though
it is outside of the awareness of the people in the organization. This would
account for why some organizations (like the one I work for) succeed in spite
of their self-defeating and self-denying objectives.

>>>If some business person says, and this was said to me recently, that *all
that matters is making money* what possibly can one say in response?<<<

I come across this notion: *The business of doing business is to get more
business.* If as a consultant you are contracted to do a job, the only
objective is to use that contractual relationship to get more work. Basically
you lure the client into larger and larger commitments (deeper and deeper
water). Projected revenues are the reality; deliverables are incidental. 

On to your questions. 

(1) The puer in the organization. I have never heard this question asked
before and would like to know more about it, too.

(2) >>>Why don't organizational directors
consciously use the different functions of creative people to release
stopped up energies within the organization?<<<

As someone who works in an organization that brokers creative talent
(designers, writers) to corporate clients needing business communications, I
ponder this question almost daily, especially since the creative energies of
people there are both narrowly channeled and routinely disparaged for being
not creative enough. (As a mid-level manager, I am caught in the middle of
this dilemma.)

(3) >>>self-selecting business leadership<<<

What do you mean by this term?

>>>to lead the social institutions they caretake toward greater
self-awareness
and greater individuation<<<

This is a powerful offer to put on the table for business leaders looking for
any way to re-engineer and make their companies more productive and
competitive. It sounds too much like therapy and would have to be packaged
with a different spin to be credible. My own experience is that management
instinctively seeks to control the information flow, and greater
self-awareness and individuation would have to serve that end. A contradicton
in terms, to my mind. 

>>>considering what a fully *anima*ted organization might be like; in
terms of this group, what a fully *anima*ted cyberspace might be like!<<<

Another intriguing idea. Can you expand more on this? *Anima*ted to me sounds
ominous, as in anima-driven. Not a pleasant thought.

I hope you can post a brief reading list for those who would like to pursue
this further off-line.

Many thanks for generously sharing your thoughts on this subject.

Ron




From walter@link.southern.co.nz Sun Aug 27 20:01:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: (re) Lost in cyberspace
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.southern.co.nz>
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 1995 20:01:00


> Is not the shadow an essential ingrediant of the opus?

It must be so -- to again be self reflective here -- a form of ''community''
with all its messyness is probably one thing.  It happens.  Therre is also all
the ''bagage'' that comes with
ownership, leadership.

>>The symbol is a way of uniting people to a cause.  I have a
>>high regard for the William Morris fire screen motif I have
>>been using for Psybernet.  It seems to say the whole thing for
>>me in a symbol -- it is only recently that I even know who he
>>was, the picture came first.  It is still OK to have it there.

> Can you post a GIF?

You can send a message to the listserv@link.southern.co.nz  and use

GET  <filename>

The file name in question is:  MOTIF.ZIP

you can get a list of all the other files off the BBS with GET P_LIB.TXT

Hope it works, it is all a bit new and untested.


>> at the same time not to ''belong'' -- I think that
>> word reveals a lot about the shadow side of the participation
>> mystique, as I am beginning to see it.

> Is the shadow of belonging the lock-step of the cult? The
> breaking-in period starts out with sleep deprivation...no
> dreams allowed. Objective: no opposites, no push and pull,
> no tension?

I was thinking of more subtle approaches, but that is the general idea.  To
learn anything though it requires something of this ordrer -- universityies --
companies all have somethin of this.  I am thinking of psychodrama training i
had -- it sort of fits there too.

> Soon we'll be able to imbed graphics in our email. You could
> show the snake, as Eudora does when I check and have no
> mail. Cyber-Community, Cyber-village, Cyber-cult,
> Cyber-karass, Cyber-circus...hmmm.

Soon?  Now:  if you have WWW and a browser then this would show the motif
mentioned:

http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

Not quite embedded, but email readers should do this soon & you wont need to
cut an past the url.



Walter

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From walter@ Tue Aug 29 12:50:05 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
Subject: Re: (re) Lost in cyberspace
From: Self <walter>
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 12:50:05

Hi all,

I had a dream which I have been looking at as part of the work
associated with the Aion reading group, but it seems totally
unrelated to that -- at least with regard to the topic of the
group.  Even with regard to process it may be outside the realm
of that group.  Mostly it speaks to me of the dynamics we have
been speaking of here.  I am in fact delighted with the process
of the groups, and don't see the problems here in cyberspace
that are in the dream.  That is not quite right -- I feel
terrible in the dream and I feel OK here!  

I have put it under the title of Lost in cyberspace -- because
in my mind it relates to the material of that thread.

I would be interested in how our ''active imagination'' extends
this dream and if that collectively helps our work here.  Or
perhaps I should not be so imperialistic and pray that our work
here helps the dream.  Either way I do not have a sense of
making a personal disclosure here -- though of course I can't
help but think of the whole thing personally as well, but that
is secondary for me right now.  


Dream:  Saturday night?  26th?

I am in a big hall -- it is a crossroads hall -- like a railway
station.  I am conducting a meeting of some sort.  The
participants are students -- I am lecturing and leading a
discussion.  In the audience is M -- one of the main teachers I
have had in my life, and the object of much transference.  True
to form I am concerned about how I am doing in his eyes.  

And it is not too well -- I know this, all the students are in
different chairs and facing different directions -- they are
talking past each other.  Some are walking off and others walk
through the group to their destinations -- (it is a railway
station)  I apologise and say that it was not busy like this
when we planned the event.  

People disperse into small groups M goes to talk with C   (one
of his favoured ''sons'') , in conspiratorial whispers.  I try
to keep the group together.  A woman stands up to say she has
some Mt. Lyford photos for people (where I have my batch).  I
say she should do this after the group -- but to no avail, the
group order is completely lost.  

In the chaos some people start to put the chairs in some order,
attempting to fill the leadership vacuum, but they do it wrong
-- too close together, and I wake up in despair -- glad it is a
dream and pleased I do not need to go back into it.

[the dream is vivid, and I can recall details of colour and
particularities]



Walter 



From walter@ Fri Sep 01 00:39:33 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
Subject: Re: Stereoscopy
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 00:39:33

Hi,

We've gone all quiet -- for me it is that I am busy in Aion --
good for me, and good for my learning about Psybernet too. 

I came across this doing a bit of surfing.  I read that book
_Sane Asylum_ years ago, had quite an impact.  Also the review
is by  Stuart Brand of Whole Earth Catalogue fame.  The
other interesting phenomena is the GBN Global Business Network,
to which the author and reviewer belong as well as Dan's *star*
Esther Dyson, and James Hillman, Brian Eno -- to name a few
whose names have come up on this list.

Walter 

--------------------------------quote from -------------------------------------
http://www.gbnetwork.com/BookClub/Charting.html


CHARTING THE CORPORATE MIND

GBN MEMBER Charles Hampden-Turner is a long-time associate and
friend of most of GBN's founders, many of whom worked with him
on corporate assignments. I first came across him as the author
of a superb book called Sane Asylum, about Delancey Street, an
organization with unmatched success in turning around the lives
of criminals and the addicted. This experience was not a bad
preparation for learning how to deal with corporate conundrums.

Peter Schwartz: "Part of Charting the Corporate Mind (chapters
3 and 6) is based on a report Charles did while we were working
together at Royal Dutch/Shell in London. He was helping top
management to deal with several very tough issues of corporate
policy that were creating profound dilemmas. The result was the
most remarkable--and funniest--report ever sent to the Managing
Directors of Shell. Not only was its message subtle and
controversial, his use of humor was unheard of in a board-level
study. I am convinced that the subtle wit of the report led to
it having a much greater impact. The Shell management were able
to laugh at the image of themselves in the report and take on
its important messages as a result."

Hampden-Turner's use of cybernetic (complex systems) thinking
in the realm of social science has application well beyond
strictly corporate uses. --SB


Quoted from the text:

There are major objections to the "Unicorn" of Pure Profit.

1. Profit comes too late to steer by.

2. Motivationally the desire for profit is too narrow to learn
from.

3. Profit conflicts with values of equal importance yet higher
priority.

4. Putting profitability first makes business strategies too
predictable and too easy to defeat.

5. Profiting is a "text" which needs a "context" to support it.

6. Profitability is an organic not a mechanical attribute.

7. Profiting may not apply to all the units within a strategic
alliance.

8. When imitated by factions and persons within the
corporation, profiting becomes suboptimal.

9. It cannot deal with societal and environmental "addictions."



From walter@ Fri Sep 01 00:49:42 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
Subject: Re: Stereoscopy
From: Self <walter>
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 00:49:42

Some more from the GBN site:  I post this for interest -- not an 
endorsement. Stephen, you mentioned this here the other day, 
what do you think?

<quote> 

KINDS OF POWER: A Guide to Its Intelligent Uses

James Hillman; Currency Doubleday, 1995; 260 pages; $23; ISBN
0-385-46964-0

POWER is one of the three uncool-but-essential topics to
understand around organizations (the other two are
rank-relationships and judgement). Hillman regards power as
inevitable, legitimate, and at its best when handled with
subtlety and complexity. He rightly blasts those who narrowly
wield power-as-control, say, or power-as-efficiency.

Hillman is a polytheist, favoring the ancient Greek pantheon.
He regards the old gods and goddesses as powerful ideas writ
into complex characters, and those ideas continue to wrangle
and decree within us and our organizations just as they did in
the eternal soap opera on Mt. Olympus. Note, for instance,
Hillman's retelling of the tale of the futurist Cassandra: "If
we don't know who is at work in an idea, we more easily get
caught by its power. We become identified with that idea,
defend it, fight for it, and soon we have become ideational
fundamentalists.... Myths can account even for that feeling of
certainty. It, too, comes from the gods, says the story of
Cassandra. Apollo wanted her and gave her the gift of prophetic
insight by wetting her lips with his tongue. But she then
refused his desire and so he gave her as well the curse that no
one would believe what she saw so certainly. Although she could
surely foretell what was to come, her warnings fell on
unheeding ears. She could only tell the truth and was
considered, by her fellow Trojans, insane."

I like Hillman's writing. It's lucid and gritty, compassionate
and harsh, probing to the meat of what matters. Read his chapter
on Efficiency, for instance.


Quoted from the text:

For action to be direct and single, thought must be diverse and plural.



This book addresses the psychology of business. As a writer on
psychology, I am turning to business for my audience because
that is where I believe the most vital and challenged minds are
at work and where issues of power are most central.... The drama
of business, its struggles, challenges, victories and defeats,
forms the fundamental myth of our civilization, the story that
explains the underlying bottom line of the ceremonies of our
behavior.



If, for instance, I define power simply as "control," I will
never be able to let go of control without fear of losing power.
Trapped by this concept into paranoid vigilance, competitive
exertions and demonstrative leadership, I will never discover
the subtle power of influence, authority, generosity or patient
resistance.



When we predict, we project. In fact, future studies are often
called "projections." The projection-making factor is in the
subjective mind as much as it is in the objective data, and
since the deepest structures of the mind are probably archetypal
patterns, appearing so regularly and universally in art and
thought, ritual and behavior, dreams and madness, we can expect
them to display themselves as well in projections about the
future. Let's review a few of these familiar fantasies:

     Cyclical Return...
     Gloom and Doom...
     Hopeful Greening...
     Apocalyptic Catastrophe...
     Well-Managed Rationalism...


From hoon@apk.net Fri Sep 01 14:29:04 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: stereoscopy et al
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 22:29:04 -0400


Reflections...as WL put it, dada and I add: dadadada. :^}

Subject:   Stereoscopy

Dan,

>  Not sure what you're saying here. What's going to be big?
>  I don't mind measurable. I don't mind a dollar
>  oriented bottom       line but we gotta get a lot better at
>  measuring the       'intermediate' things and linking them
>  with the bottom line.<<<

A good intake question for a consultant: how does your bottom line work?
(Then) Does ^fill in blank^ enter into it?

>  I agree. It's hard for business people to see the true costs
>  of their policies and practices. They can't see that
>  something they're neglecting now -- like employee morale --
>  may cost them in the future. Or they can't see a pay-off in
>  the future for an investment they could be making now. I
>  think there's been a growing cynicism about employees that's
>  no different from the revolt against welfare. Hell, if they
>  can't look after themselves, fuck 'em.

OTH, I observe also an incredible fear of employees. Rigorously but thinly
veiled. Why the *Emperor With No Clothes* is a parable for our times.

Experience: Doing interviews as a prelim to organizational assessments and
having people burst into tears.

There are many common-sense reasons why people protect their comfort zones
zealously. I'm also aware that the other side of projecting onto, is being
the projection's receptor...which, I guess, makes for a busy and scary
dream life for the person-in-charge.

Bad intake question for consultant: have you had any nightmares recently?
(I've never asked it but been tempted to.)

>  I am in fact delighted with the process of the groups, and
>  don't see the problems here in cyberspace that are in the
>  dream.  That is not quite right -- I feel terrible in the
>  dream and I feel OK here!

??? Who feels what, where? :)

>  Either way I do not have a sense of making a personal
>  disclosure here -- though of course I can't help but think
>  of the whole thing personally as well, but that is secondary
>  for me right now.

>  crossroads
>  railway station
>  students -- lecturing and leading
>  a discussion
>  teachers
>  True to form
>  his eyes.
>
>  not too well -- I know this
>  different directions
>  talking past -- walking
>  destinations
>  apologise
>  not busy -- we planned the event.
>
>  small groups
>  ''sons'') , conspiratorial whispers
>  group together.  A woman
>  Mt. Lyford photos
>  should do
>  order is completely lost.
>
>  chaos
>  order -- vacuum
>  wrong -- too close together -- despair --
>  go back

Intuitive parsing...what strikes me is two elements *a woman* and your
closing *go back*. (Walter,) would you talk about any reflections you might
have had about breaking or widening the temenos when deciding to post this
dream?

>   CHARTING THE CORPORATE MIND
>
>
>  There are major objections to the "Unicorn" of Pure Profit.
>  1. Profit comes too late to steer by.
>  2. Motivationally the desire for profit is too narrow to
>  learn from.
>  3. Profit conflicts with values of equal importance yet
>  higher priority.
>  4. Putting profitability first makes business strategies too
>  predictable and too easy to defeat.
>  5. Profiting is a "text" which needs a "context" to support
>  it.
>  6. Profitability is an organic not a mechanical attribute.
>  7. Profiting may not apply to all the units within a
>  strategic alliance.
>  8. When imitated by factions and persons within the
>  corporation, profiting becomes suboptimal.
>  9. It cannot deal with societal and environmental
>  "addictions."
>

-q-
Hard-headed realists take pride in asserting that organizations are
concerned with real things like profit and loss. To label profit a thing is
to miss much of what is interesting about it. Profit is one way of labeling
and making sense of the world; it is variable in a cause map, it can be an
enacted environment, and it can be a symbol. It is one form of sensibleness
that can be imposed on an organization's stream of experience but it is
only one form of sensibleness, and it is an arbitrary one at that. Karl
Weick / The Social Psychology of Organizing, McGraw-Hill, 1979
-q-

Weick's *arbitrary* makes this a particularly profound observation. Quoted
from one of the most brilliant and readable books addressing issues in this
field.

>   Some more from the GBN site:  I post this for interest --
>  not an  endorsement. Stephen, you mentioned this here the
>  other day,  what do you think?
>
>  KINDS OF POWER: A Guide to Its Intelligent Uses
>
>
>  James Hillman; Currency Doubleday, 1995; 260 pages; $23;
>  ISBN 0-385-46964-0
>
Hillman's open-ended and provocative views, as always, acknowledges without
facile judgements, the hills and vales of human nature.
>
>  POWER is one of the three uncool-but-essential topics to
>  understand around organizations (the other two are
>  rank-relationships and judgement). Hillman regards power as
>  inevitable, legitimate, and at its best when handled with
>  subtlety and complexity. He rightly blasts those who
>  narrowly wield power-as-control, say, or
>  power-as-efficiency.
>

Contrast with objectivist attribution theory. Example would be
*instrumental justice*...but these kinds of theories offer up a multitude
of catagories.

Also, today *decision modelling* (very chic preoccupation of mathematically
inclined business theorists,) attempts to enfold cognitive-behaviorial
frameworks into a psychological perspective on choice-making. This is an
extension of expert systems work with the difference that it encompasses an
impressive additional set of variables. Missing? Soul. (Among other
omissions...all thought to be non-quantifiable noise -- unconscious
as...noise?)

Without real feeling rationality is *un-real*.

>
>  This book addresses the psychology of business. As a writer
>  on psychology, I am turning to business for my audience
>  because that is where I believe the most vital and
>  challenged minds are at work and where issues of power are
>  most central.... The drama of business, its struggles,
>  challenges, victories and defeats, forms the fundamental
>  myth of our civilization, the story that explains the
>  underlying bottom line of the ceremonies of our behavior.
>

(wonderful) the ceremonies too of our *private* dramas.

>If, for instance, I define power simply as "control,"

The Negative Father.

>  When we predict, we project. In fact, future studies are
>  often called "projections."
>

(obvious) ideas: progress, efficiency, productivity...projections of an
ideal state of nature (?) ... a *perfect* stasis (sometime) in the future
(?) The business cycle as Icarusysian fall.

The chairman of the board, the chief executive (executing) officer as the
one acceptable Olympian role for the Logos-Man.

Principle organizational opponent: nature; human nature; feelings (read as
female emotions or emotionality); subjectivity; decay...entropy.

All of this requires stuffing into the *black bag*...inevitable decline.

Then: the shadow (?) of the eternal child.

Preliminary thesis: the organization as a hedge against mortality.

Simple man's idea of profit? Buy low, sell high.
Idea of career progress? Start low, finish high.

Best to all.

The difficulty lies in striking the dead center.        | Stephen Calhoun
For this an awareness of the two sides of man's
personality is essential, of their respective
aims and origins. These two aspects must never
be separated through arrogance or cowardice.            | in Cleveland, Ohio
C.G. Jung





From ctpost@aol.com Sat Sep 02 01:35:13 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: (re) Lost in cyberspace
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:35:13 -0400


Walter,

>>>In the chaos some people start to put the chairs in some order,
attempting to fill the leadership vacuum, but they do it wrong
-- too close together, and I wake up in despair -- glad it is a
dream and pleased I do not need to go back into it.<<<

I've had many, many versions of this dream. I associate it with my 15 years
as a classroom teacher before switching to the work I do now. Almost always
there is this element of disorder and lack of focus. Lately students have
taken to sneaking out when my back is turned. It is a rare occasion that I am
able to hold the attention of a dream group.

 I note that you refer to a lack of leadership, as though that is the missing
element. There is leadership in the dream, it's just scattered all over and
not in one place.  Attention, I'm thinking, is a gift. Among people whose
attenton is drawn to anything that moves, the group leader in your dream
becomes part of the field, and the passing people (I picture Grand Central
Station in NY, which I pass through every day to/from work) are the subjects
of attention. The distractions within the group do the same. Leadership (if
definied as that which holds the attention of others) is fragmented across
all the other elements of the dream. How would you as the still center of it
all follow where all that movement is leading? What a tug of war to fight it.
I would feel despair, too, I think.

Ron



Walter 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


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From: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>
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Subject:   (re) Lost in cyberspace
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From crandow@chch.computerland.co.nz Tue Sep 05 19:24:12 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: All of this
From: CHC-Dan Randow <crandow@chch.computerland.co.nz>
Date: Tue, 05 Sep 95 19:24:12




Text item: Text_1

     
     all
     
     first chance tonite to read some of this mail and i am 
     overwhelmed
     
     too much for my beleagered brain
     
     my (particularly work) life has been pretty difficult lately. i 
     have been (passively of course) in some pretty big fights here 
     which has been wearing me down an awful lot. i'm not used to 
     being 'in trouble' but have realised i fantasise about it almost 
     constantly and when it happens, i take it pretty badly. still not 
     at ease around authority after all these years. had it not been 
     for the chance to check things with Mary-Anne (my partner), i 
     think this time i might have ansered back or worse. sits very 
     badly (=very= badly) with me to muzzle myself - not say anything 
     about any of it to anyone around work. :(
     
     thankfully with silence and pretending nothing has happened, new 
     skin is forming over the unhealed wounds so we can smile together 
     and get on with our lives while trustworthy inner processes 
     quietly do whatever they do with that stuff.
     
     and it has occured with the sub-plot of this dialog here in 
     PSYBER-L which has brought dim light. light because I just love 
     to read and here from you. Stephen I enjoyed your 'intake 
     questions for consultants'. i enjoy the magic and metaphor of 
     this place. dim because everything seems dim just now, because by 
     the time i get to reading this stuff it's the end of my day 6 or 
     so pm and i want to get home so i see my kids before their 
     bedtime, because i'm in my work space doing this (need net 
     connection of my own), because this mail reader is a dog (aren't 
     they all?), because sometimes i can't even understand half the 
     stuff i'm reading but it -sounds- interesting (what does 
     "Profitability is an organic not a mechanical attribute" mean?), 
     because after a while i never want to see another < or >, because 
     Ron, your organisation seems worse than mine (i'm sure i wouldn't 
     survive 5 minutes), because i feel guilty that i don't 
     acknowledge the responses made to my posts. i'll stop being a 
     doom-head now (if you got this far, Thank-you).
     
     This oversimplification of organisational life by focusing on the 
     profit objective protects the people who do it the most from 
     experiencing the complexity of the world. What about us, the ones 
     who see the beauty and welcome the complexity. What does it do 
     for us? Gets _me_ in the shit! Do I do it just to get in fights 
     with authority - of course not but how much? 
     
     I guess the trick is to find balance. The taoist tree bending in 
     the wind. Gotta be so bloody perfect. Grrrrrr.
     
     Thanks for being there.
     
     Dan



From hoon@apk.net Wed Sep 06 14:12:19 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: all of this
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 22:12:19 -0400


Dan, and all,

Your communique speaks to the fields' interpenetrating...the personal with
the social and here in psyber-L the generating ideas of individuation,
sharing, ideas, and feelings. And, community.

-cut-
>  not used to being 'in trouble' but have realised i fantasise
>  about it almost constantly and when it happens, i take it
>  pretty badly. still not at ease around authority after all
>  these years. had it not been for the chance to check things
-cut-
>
>  thankfully with silence and pretending nothing has happened,
>  new skin is forming over the unhealed wounds so we can smile
>  together and get on with our lives while trustworthy inner
>  processes quietly do whatever they do with that stuff.
>
-cut-
>  and it has occured with the sub-plot of this dialog here in
>  PSYBER-L which has brought dim light. light because I just
-cut-
>  survive 5 minutes), because i feel guilty that i don't
-cut-
>  This oversimplification of organisational life by focusing
>  on the profit objective protects the people who do it the
>  most from experiencing the complexity of the world. What
>  about us, the ones who see the beauty and welcome the
>  complexity. What does it do for us? Gets _me_ in the shit!
>  Do I do it just to get in fights with authority - of course
>  not but how much?
>
>  I guess the trick is to find balance. The taoist tree
>  bending in the wind. Gotta be so bloody perfect. Grrrrrr.
>
>  Thanks for being there.
>
>  Dan

I, of the long rambling posts, can only say: I've been there. Hard won for
me is the balance between *tethering my camel* and allowing the energy of
my psyche a good portion of a-live-ness.

And, I don't let my fantasies give me much guff. More to the point, I know
when I must give my inner *father* a good whack...which helps suppress the
urge to give all those dads *out there* a wack.

Hope this helps. Best to all.

A thin bright reed song,
if it should fade,
we fade.
RUMI pbuh





From josh@link.southern.co.nz Mon Sep 11 00:15:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: All of this
From: Josh <josh@link.southern.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 00:15:00

-=> Note:
Forwarded (from: PSYBER-NETMAIL) by Walter Logeman using timEd.
Originally from dee@pawpaw.easynet.co.uk (3:770/270.10) to Walter Logeman.
Original dated: Sep 09 '95, 06:10

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From: dee@pawpaw.easynet.co.uk (josh on)
Subject: Re: All of this


Dan your first All of this post really brought up quite a bit for me.   I wish
that I could just express everything I want to say about it wit a 0.

But a zero want cut it.  Zen is a cop out, this a a world of zeros and ones
and I suspect all that is inbetween.
Though zen is what I craze at the moment, or at least an online group that I
can actively not participate in.  Just be there silently, not be obliged to
read the messages let alone respond, but enjoy all the feelings of creativity
and rewards of interaction.
 I guess I am just relating to your comments about email and less your
comments about work, incase this is a bit vague.

Too much workand I am really missing getting into writing and sharing ideas...
Though I am finding ways of getting mor of me into my work and that is good...

Josh...



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* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From ctpost@aol.com Mon Sep 11 04:07:48 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: kinds of power
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 12:07:48 -0400


Thanks, Walter, for posting excerpts from Hillman's *Kinds of Power*. 

I recently picked up a copy, and reading the book has been an empowering
experience. Besides much food for thought, I hear the familiar synonyms for
power, which he writes about, much more in 3 dimensions now. And they are
everywhere. Eg, a TV ad poses this interesting question: What is power if you
don't have control? (Can't remember what the product was.) 

A division of the company I work for does management consulting in corporate
identity, and the way they have evolved their service is almost literally to
put a company on the couch and do an analysis of them -- from CEO down to the
people on the frontlines and their customers. This weekend, I was with one of
the corporate identity teams to hear them present initial findings and
recommendations to a company that is going through some big changes. Hillman
helped me see how much of the content of what my colleagues do revolves
around identifying kinds of power, as well as vulnerabilities. 

They call their product Corporate Voice -- that is, helping a company find
its voice; and rather than imposing it from without, they help discover an
authentic basis for it from within the organization, the way the company
actually thinks and feels about itself, the market, and its customers. I'm
recommending Hillman to them, as I think what he says would enrich further
the way their service is evolving.

Ron



From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Sep 11 19:37:23 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama's 2nd imput-WOW-geez-Now what's of Interest-hmmm...
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:37:23 +1200


Hey hey folks - Hi there to everyone... Here is the story this is one
helluva file so I have condensed it into several messages for your general
well being-but if you want to risk your sanity reading the long one-go
ahead it's fine by me,  it's got the same stuff as the installments..

(by the way a Quark is a frozen entity of information-the name is taken
from James Joyce's the Dubliners by a Physicist...)

   Well there has definitely been some seriously interesting stuff being
broached in this conference of multi faceted personalities.Oh I dunno I
hope I'm not sounding- well er um pretentious-I don't think I should try to
live up to the high calibre word power of some of you guys-but I must say
some times I find it a little bit difficult to fathom some
of the catch phrases you use-like what is oh O-now I have to find it in the
myriad of Cyber-L mail,  That's right it's from WaerWolf-I really dig and
relate to what he expressed-I kinda did not quite know what to say to
Cyber-L with all the splurts of deep colourful and black & white
information spreading all over my E-mail disk,  but I've finally decided it
would be cool to be a bit more involved!! I enjoyed my first foray into
Cyber-L I was rather excited and chuffed to be addressed by Walter in such
praising positive entrepreneurial attitude-encouraging and wanting to help
facilitate the writing of a CyberPunk script.Although I must insist that
being involved in it could of been quite fun and beneficial to others but
sadly I was rather disappointed, for some reason I thought WoW this could
be Amazing writing a script co-operatively-all working together in on a
creative endeavour-exciting ideas, characters - scenes - visions of -
futuristic
possibilities-_-_-_-_-_-___-_____--_--__-_-_---_----___-----___-____

   JACK on in into your shared consensual hallucinogenic realities -delve
into the panoramic majesty and beauty of what Quark the Seeker is unaware
he is in search of - horizons - Space - the Dark hard realities left behind
- no Utopia - maybe for some but not for the Hero of the story, once a
spectacular player who procured and once held in his grasp stakes of liquid
gold -information- Now left Void without the thrill of free floating away
from the meat of the body - diving, dodging, the thrill seeking - cracking
the best - except he got too good - he stole and got his access to
Cyberspace destroyed in a flash of pain and misery - now living on a self
imposed death wish - going from 1 courier job to the next - he has the
aimless gait of a man with a death wish - cynical,  sarcastic, peppered
with dry wit this cool character has the st smarts but prefers to pop into
realities of neuro pill highs -he sure as hell is willing to do almost
anything,  given the right circumstances to gain access back into his
preferred mode of reality.-

and when he's least expecting it - she hits him like a whirlwind out of
know-where - A Real classy dame who kicks ass for a livin - she ensconces
his attention with his delirious wishes to return...He dangles and is
baited - the most expensive medical unit cures and changes his spinal fluid
- leaving him to somersault back into Cyberspace -
 But wait the man has signed up for a hell ride - the operation also
installed a special chemical sack embedded in his gut set off after certain
period - his co-operation is ensured - He finds himself talking to a
faceless puppet man who is the epitome of control - his objectives are to
free some information a QUARK - In Cyberspace he turns to a soul program of
a dead console cowboy who helps him through the task of breaking through
the security of a corporation who he finds out to be the one and only one
who fried him -
 - he then proceeds to break through,  letting the feme fatale action her
way through to the desired location where the info is liquidated - he keeps
getting mysterious visions and strange conversations while in cyberspace
with faces looted from his memory - he finds out that the entity is a
A.I-Artificial Intelligence-that has evolved into a state of realised
consciousness and who wants to escape from the mundane confines of the rich
family who had him constructed - thus they continue and do after a
confrontation with family and guards find the key to unlock The A.I- BUT
decker is thrown into another part of the A.I's consciousness - the induced
reality is a beach with his last lover on it and on the horizon escape is
bizarre,  the closer he goes the further the distance becomes - her hacker
learns something important - he escapes by excepting the reality - walking
backwards and excepting this,  he translocated back in time and gets back
to a reality where the A.I is in the process of amalgamating him into a
satellite A.I - although some of his consciousness- fragments into
particles of data that immortalise him (for he accepts his predicament and
does not miss the flesh but for the Femme fatale who he has unbeknown to
her fallen in love...) - floating round the Matrix - living in what ever
reality he chooses to exist in and evolve with but sadly his reality can
never quite shake off the memory of this enigmatic woman -so he manages to
locate and make contact with sentenint some life instead,  in the hope of
finding some understanding and forgetting the Woman whose heart she trapped
within her permanent Mirror shades...

  Damn eh!! that version is not my film one-just to give you a taste of
it-that one is similar kinda to the plot of Neuromancer--but also different
again,  although my movie script uses similar characters the plot devices
are slightly different - I don't think William Gibson would mind too much.I
think the idea of art being transmitted and worked on by groups of people
each adding their own personal ingredient is very positive whether it
contains Quarks of their Essence or not-although I find it hard to believe
they could not leave any traces.I would love to do a bit of work like
that.I think it encourages interesting originality in a different form,
for eg poor old Van gough who could not sell his work to feed himself ended
up have his collected originals worth around 80 million in total (a bit of
a nasty Irony that) - that's a real industrial feudal state.Why have just
have one persons script,  why not have the contributions of many so as in
the final product it would come from differing perspective's, so more
people would find interest and enjoyment from it... But hey maybe I'm just
a bit lazy or I am finding it hard to simplify and actually get something
formulated that is not to complex but that has excitement & interest in the
cyber as a art form. As a first production for many (friends e.t.c) - who
will hopefully gain the satisfaction of it (if it gets done-lets be o
ptimistic now)...

  But one problem is I always,  just about tend to leave things to the last
minute and my perfectionism can become a heavy ball and chain holding me
back and inducing a paralysed neurosis of it not happening and get it
done!!So here goes it will have to be fast pascy and some what surreal but
yet get the complex messages across to The audience through a coherent
format - that leaves them with provoking images and ideas to rethink and
vusualize.it's gotta work-so  I have to organise it + keep up with work at
varsity and not fail...Geezz I don't think this will get posted I think I
might cut it up in to two peices...Nah keep it the way it is Me thinks-But
wait there is more-more--------
!!@#$%^&*()__+QQWERTTYUIOPASDFGGHJKLZXCVBNM!@#$%^&*()

Cyber-community seems to be living together without all the messy parts
that go along with having to deal with people's physical presence and
physical needs.
Hey Ron that's an interesting idea and probably is a logical point-But have
you been on a MUD or a MOO or a chat line or anything-I'll assume you
have-well I find them to be quite interesting places,  there quite a few
interesting people who hang out there-it's has some rather funny things I
mean I dunno some off it seem a bit boring-but they kinda quest through
amassing equipment,  weaponry,  levels of experience,  spells,  skills.But
the interesting part is there can quite often be messy little squabbles and
arguments amongst all this,  but also there is a sense where you can band
together with other people and they help you out on these quests + you can
quite often find some pretty interesting conversation-silly and
serious.Also what is really cool is there are not to many inhabitants + you
can use your imagination and use a command called Emote-which lets you say
that your character is say flyinging into space and somersaulting or what
ever you want-you could probably even have virtual sex if you were so
disposed-allot different-as you use you brain,  your language,  personality
and imagination to romance and excite your partner have never Experienced
it myself although I have been kissed a couple of times and that I must say
gave me a pleasant little suprise it got my happy chemicals going-so
virtual sex or Cybersex could be even more intense.So the physical presence
and needs are not always blotted out-it probably differs in the different
groups and stuff-like the Cyber-L are probably a different kettle of fish
than the MUD & MOO players but I'm sure they would get on or right.I even
once read a review of some stuff going down on a MOO-they are
complicated-because you can have more freedom you can create o
when realities own land,  house,  spaceship e.t.c.. Apparently they had a
problem with strange guy who was hassling a woman player-what he did was
manage to hack in and get her password and take her over and make her look
like she was doing lude things in front of her friends-and way the
community (whoops you don't like that word do you) dealt with it, was they
considered it to be character Rape and they ended up Banning him from the
community.Although I must admit there are no barriers between gender,
race,  looks,  sexuality-which is always a good start.Pretty interesting
stuff...
I'm reminded of Kurt Vonnegut's notion of the *granfaloon*, exhibited by
strangers who feel they can be chummy with you if you happen to have some
odd factor in common, like both being from Indiana.

 Yea I agree with that I have encountered that,  like you find out that you
both are interested in movies and making them-and you break down the
barriers of communication the situation then-becomes more intra-personal
and friendly.Sorry I seem to be in the dark about this shadow mystique
concept could someone please clarify this and enlighten it a bit more for
me?

Yea Walter I gotta say I like the way you write it soundz good and makes
sense-the Woodstock-thing as Ron put it's a neat way of thinking,  it's
great hearing of how other people think and communicate their ideas and how
they get transmutated and added to and discussed to bring out fresh new
ideas that are pulled fourth through the looking glass to elevate us into a
better mode of self perception and knowledge to find and evolve ourselves
into more aware- PEOPLE-who push forward through the barriers into new
uncharted space-the Frontier-it's us-if I can call my self one-it's the
storytellers,  artists,  musicians who decode the scientific terminology in
layperson language that has been put forth to explain the chaos in our
world the unknown-the uncharted phenomena for James Joyce the Irish liteary
genius who created   a groundbreaking fresh new interesting style of
writing in which leapt ahead of it's comparatively stale literature
predecessors,  Imagine what Joyce could have accomplished with a word
processor,  for even later on a Physist borrowed a character name out of
the Dubliners-"Quark" and used it to explain a fragment-byte of
information-it's the artists who make the science interesting and more
easily understood by the masses so that we can evoulutionize into a more
stable form of existence and adjust to the new the ever increasing barrage
of new techknowledgy this century has heralded and find innovative ways to
use them for the better of EarthKind.So well whadda ya think of that
then-I've been reading Timothy Leary's book which is really cool and
thought provoking it contains masses of stuff about:Personal computers and
having your own creative power with them,  future predictions of new
tecknowledgy and it's impact,  interviews with many interesting
personalities-Wynona Ryder, David Bryne,

   William.s.Burrows, Andie Warhol,  William Gibson e.t.c + Philosophy,
Religion,  Art,  counterculture movements,  Drugs,  communication through
computers-(even a article on cybersex).It's a really well written book I
recommend it now if I can fully remember and visualise the title mm
mm...It's something like CyberPunk or CyberCulture-I think the previous and
counterculture,  It really fascinates me.The strange thing is my Mother
heard him briefly on the radio and he has contracted some kind of bad
cancer or something and apparently he is over joyed that he might
die-strange you may think,  well he's got a different perspective on
things-he's looking forward to discovering what's on the otherside after
death...

Another thing I'll say that it took me a bit to get into the discussion
about working in corporations and the workplace I guess as I don't really
work-but it's interesting with all the hierarchies and games that most
bissness organisations go for-I think it's rather counter productive not to
have your workers productive in new innovative creative ways-Not a good
idea to cage them in.If in the future big corporations fight for
competition and rivalry and are bigger than the countries-they probably
will let the individual have more personal choice and freedom-so whatever
just not unless it's counter productive to the country-like say they would
not allow war-causes that is somewhat bad for profit.Instead of the money
being in the stock market-information in cyberspace or the Matrix will be
more important-Massive beautiful shiny towers of information will store all
the books, cd's, movies, videos, t.v programs e.t.c + there the information
will be extremely valuable and the skirmishes fought between corporations
will be favourable informatio
n-akin to currency or interchangeable their about-these will b protected by
I.C.E- (Intruder.Counter.Entity-or something close to that)But these I.C.E
are not impenetrable, as rogues, hackers and deck cowboys manage to break
through and steal this info on the other companies and sell it on the black
market to the highest bidder.By around 2040 space will have been colonised
by vast flash luxury space stations where family's(not Genetic) of people
with similar interests hibernate and go together and set up
bisnesses.People can look exactly the way they want they can have muscles
implants-change the whole structure of their bodies or even clone
themselves via D.N.A or save themselves on Computer...
There's some pretty far out ideas and time will only tell what's gonna
happen eh? But I guess these writers do predict things- Isaac Asimov
predicted the creation of robots and artificial Intelligence-he created the
laws that robots abide by,  so who Knows,  it could go either way?I mean
there could be a nuclear war-but I'm pretty pessimistic about
 that situation-it would be just too sad...

 I have noticed that the Internet is starting to take off more in NZ I have
noticed a considerable growth in web pages which is always good because we
don't have overseas access at UNI,  also it means maybe companies will have
to become more competive and offer better prices.I myself would love to
replace my old Amiga 500 for a Mac or a PC or a New model Amiga  and get
hooked onto the net-although it is still is quite expensive-But it's just
great having so much information at your finger tips-let your fingers do
the walking and the communication all round the world is great makes the
world a smaller place really...Also You can do some cool creative things on
the computer + you can dise
mminate your own information in amongst the massive sea of people.
As posted earlier, what is this hunger-to-commune about? I was actually
born on a hippy commune on January the 26th 1976...

 Well I not sure exactly but it's really good to feel part of something and
contribute-last week I was put into a situation where I was invited to a
social gathering where I did not know many people-well I thought I
didn't-But it was fine I ended up having a great time staying there till
6a.m-it was great just to be a part of the group and talk to lots of
different people with different perspective's idea's it put my faith back
in the need for socialising-I mean I like hanging out with friends but I
don't all that often go out with or hang around with a large crowd of
strangers-well people I have not meet-but it was exciting and I guess It's
a similar attraction hear to-but off course it's different in other ways it
much easier you have to really worry about appearance,  it feels good
because it is a positive productive environment for airing ideas and
discussing them and making discovery-being in the thick of it-someone said
it was not all that physical but I feel like a can feel the resonance of
the humanity and the trace of a kind of personality fingerprint-
D.N.A-sequence that sets the needle apart from the haystack the seething
mass of humanity-things are your I don't know if controlled is then write
word but perhaps natural and sufficient information-ideas freely
disseminating around a group of searchers or interested people-doesn't
necessarily have to be a search by
an avatar to find the symbol-the answer the grail-hey maybe someone just
wants to hang out around a philosophical intriguing group of
people-anything's possible if you put you mind to it-the Brain-your Wetware
are such power tools sometimes I kinda think of how unaware we are of the
overall size and capacity, the amazing dynamics of this marvelous mainframe
we all have in our heads, where we have a virtual universe of stars
connected to flux capacitor of neuron's giving us electrical impulses-to go
and exspore out there-widen our inner and outer horizons--Imagine the hard
drive space in that baby up in our skulls-if only we the people of Earth
could let go of the hangups-the instinctlually fierce Hunter \Gattherer
\Warrior\Feudal\Industrial-society-but hey that history we learn from that
we had to come from somewhere right?-we could then drop the feigned mask of
inbred stupidity and open up are brains to immensely powerful Quarks-we
could interconnect brains in Cyberspace a communal sharing-not having to
type through a console but actually sharing linked thoughts -images -dreams
-memories- scary\exciting uncharted territory it's a tough job but
somebody's gotta do it and it would be my pleasure to be involved.It's
funny this year I have taken a couple of computer paper computer science
and information science-I think my Cerebral cortex resisted it-I have I bit
off a math blocks and programming was such a big step & of course it was
rather dry-so as I'm my attention is rather weak this year I managed flunk
it and just about so for info but I'll think I can make it although it will
probably go no where-I dunno I wish there was more of a creative right
brain visual stimulating wet course on computers-designing your own
exciting personal Chaos to be probed and explored-to do something
original-fun-not dry boring-snoring half asleep stuff...

 I would like to be involved in a somewhat artistic creative thoughtful
useful process-I'm interested in films and film making,  computers and the
communication and interrelations between people and their understanding of
it_user friendly-and I 'm quite into Drama and Photography I think that's
one of the things I miss at Uni is that I could not really do any Drama 1st
year, I probably could of got involved in a play pr something-but
everything is was so new and a bit scary and overwealming.Last year Drama
was a great time at Logan Park High School we won the NZ  theatre
federation for best youth play performance-It's was our best performance-we
were radiant- shineing out their on the stage-we were like one organism all
feeling the high of a great reservoir  of energy and  synchronistity
flowing over the stage and out into the audience-it was great!!Playinying
was 80% of the fun-the commradery and Winning was the Icing on the
cake-Yummy....So If I decide to go back to Uni next year I'll study some
English-cause I'm pretty good at that-I got 87% in bursary last year high
school + also the English lets me do film studies, practical drama,  script
writing, theatre studies-so if I pass anything this year it's gonna be my 2
prerequisite English papers! history and info science...Jeez what I have
wrote enough for a month'
s entries?

 Hey Walter you mentioned a couple of times-hinted that you were and are a
play write had a play preformed in New York-can you give me some
titles-well known plays of yours I might of heard of them-that's why we
came to Dunnedin in from Nelson because my mum's partner go t a job being
the techie manager for Fortune Theatre-that place is pretty unhealt
hy business operation-some of the plays re cool thought-the last one was a\
Jacobean Tragedy "The Revengers Tragedy" a bit long but quite good-but it
had 30 cast and crew in it so cost big-time did not pull in profit-they are
even advertising Roger Halls new play on TV-Social Climbers-he.' so funny
he's like Michael Hill's brother-Roger Hill..
.(there is no Roger Hill to my knowledge)

 Jeez I never expected so much would flow forth-I  even think I could
probably squeeze more out but I'll just go with the flow for now-can look
at more old issues and bring them up again another time-cause I'm exhausted
been up late pretty much oh well truth all night and all last night as well
slept 4 half hours so I might get moving and check out a music sale and get
home...

  Well another thing I've been watching this intensely interesting guy on
E.T.V television 9:30 am Wednesday the mornings (NZ) who is interviewed all
about myths-I can't quite recall his name but he's pretty amazing-He made
me realise some really pertinent right on the target info-although I won't
go into it right now as I think I have said enoughh for the moment...  Me
thinks I'll have to break this down into several pieces how about I send
you the full copy of this + the editions of similar info-so it's not
entirely off setting and impossible to read.Okay well I hope my
contribution is appreciated by the collective Cyber-L  group - and I kinda
hope I'll get a little attention and exsposure over this.Thanx allot for
reading and listening.Anyones free to write to me personally-I love
mail-Luke Vearing kindly replied when my movie creation -CyberPUnk came up
and Miles and Walter wrote a very interesting creative short futuristic
piece in which was rather Enigmatic-hey maybe I'll have the A.I have female
traits-maybe when the decker turns into her A.I satellite it's like a
rebirth and she's a new Alien mother-an idea 0 Thanx for the ideas and
concern in the first place-I tried to mail you at Otago Miles the Rabbit
address just kept coming back in my face like a boomerang!! Oh well I fell
Slightly more satiated now that I have made a contribution and maybe I have
started up some interesting flashpoints for discussion...
Ok great having a bit of a rave-well I'll from you all in some way sooner
or later-looker forward to roasting a few Quarks over the proverbial camp
fire....
Hear from ya-See Yaz Later.Good bye.Exit Tama stage Left.@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

P.S have kinda put Mothra Video on backburner and am doing work a video's
not worth my UNi carrer I can do a better planned one next year eh?

P.S-2-This is taking me a while to get out as I had to spell check I wish
Eudora had one + next I have to cut It up into smaller parts-Geez oh well
here goes...

Ps-3-Oh and Miles actually rang me up the other dau which was a helluva
suprise-but pretty cool-he's intersted in the movie if antything ever
happens that is-I't just might-fingers crossed!!

PS-4 I have just been happy to know a woman friend Claire has similar
feelings tahn-mine it's not so scary when I relise she is about as
confident as I.I'ts really good having a Plutonic frindship-this is the
first really good girl-Friend that a have we are not having a
relationship-although we probably could-it's probably best just to hang out
as freind and see what develops.She likes her personal space anyway,  shes
also not into being all that touchy-where as I'm really into giveing
affection and hugs-But she gives me lots of mral support,  advice and
encouragement for Uni-+she really caring-& we can hold really good
conversations...(Maybe I shouldin't of disclosed that but hey it does not
really matter I just thought I say something!!)

Well this is me Tama signing out finally-just a few minor judgements to
make and I'll go into town and try and catch a Bus home? Maybe or a could
ring Claire and see if they are going to the movies tonight... I hope some
of the stuff has not seemed trivial to any of you-I'm just exspressing my
thought and fellings-so If ya don't appreciate them dont read them(silly
defensiveness-but hey whatever)

Well I'm dyeing to hear what you people think and feel  about the info
contained in my lengthy discources...

Oh well places to go things to do...

Six is my lucky number... + a quote

Ka Kete Ano (Maori goodbye)  hear from you people soonish...

Tama Exits stage left with a florish of his Cyber Wings he soars off into
the sky-heading for the stars-his sillouette is lit by the afterglow of the
sun in a red golden haze of Starfire,  whisssshhh...



                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________



                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."
                                Socrates...





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Sep 11 19:41:18 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: CyberPunk movie stuff (installment 1)...
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:41:18 +1200


Hey hey folks - Hi there to everyone...
(by the way a Quark is a frozen entity of information-the name is taken
from James Joyce's the Dubliners by a Physicist...)

Well there has definitely been some seriously interesting stuff being
broached in this conference of multi faceted personalities.Oh I dunno I
hope I'm not sounding- well er um pretentious-I don't think I should try to
live up to the high calibre word power of some of you guys-but I must say
some times I find it a little bit difficult to fathom some of the catch
phrases you use-like what is oh O-now I have to find it in the myriad of
Cyber-L mail,  That's right it's from WaerWolf-I really dig and relate to
what he expressed-I kinda did not quite know what to say to Cyber-L with
all the splurts of deep colourful and black & white information spreading
all over my E-mail disk,  but I've finally decided it would be cool to be a
bit more involved!! I enjoyed my first foray into Cyber-L I was rather
excited and chuffed to be addressed by Walter in such praising positive
entrepreneurial attitude-encouraging and wanting to help facilitate the
writing of a CyberPunk script.Although I must insist that being involved in
it could of been quite fun and beneficial to others but sadly I was rather
disappointed, for some reason I thought WoW this could be Amazing writing a
script co-operatively-all working together in on a creative
endeavour-exciting ideas, characters - scenes - visions of - futuristic
possibilities-_-_-_-_-_-___-_____--_--__-_-_---_----___-----___-______---___
_---___---___-

   JACK on in into your shared consensual hallucinogenic realities -delve
into the panoramic majesty and beauty of what Quark the Seeker is unaware
he is in search of - horizons - Space - the Dark hard realities left behind
- no Utopia - maybe for some but not for the Hero of the story, once a
spectacular player who procured and once held in his grasp stakes of liquid
gold -information- Now left Void without the thrill of free floating away
from the meat of the body - diving, dodging, the thrill seeking - cracking
the best - except he got too good - he stole and got his access to
Cyberspace destroyed in a flash of pain and misery - now living on a self
imposed death wish - going from 1 courier job to the next - he has the
aimless gait of a man with a death wish - cynical,  sarcastic, peppered
with dry wit this cool character has the st smarts but prefers to pop into
realities of neuro pill highs -he sure as hell is willing to do almost
anything,  given the right circumstances to gain access back into his
preferred mode of reality.
 - and when he's least expecting it - she hits him like a whirlwind out of
know-where - A Real classy dame who kicks ass for a livin - she ensconces
his attention with his delirious wishes to return...He dangles and is
baited - the most expensive medical unit cures and changes his spinal fluid
- leaving him to somersault back into Cyberspace -

But wait the man has signed up for a hell ride - the operation also
installed a special chemical sack embedded in his gut set off after certain
period - his co-operation is ensured - He finds himself talking to a
faceless puppet man who is the epitome of control - his objectives are to
free some information a QUARK - In Cyberspace he turns to a soul program of
a dead console cowboy who helps him through the task of breaking through
the security of a corporation who he finds out to be the one and only one
who fried him -
 - he then proceeds to break through,  letting the feme fatale action her
way through to the desired location where the info is liquidated - he keeps
getting mysterious visions and strange conversations while in cyberspace
with faces looted from his memory - he finds out that the entity is a
A.I-Artificial Intelligence-that has evolved into a state of realised
consciousness and who wants to escape from the mundane confines of the rich
family who had him constructed - thus they continue and do after a
confrontation with family and guards find the key to unlock The A.I- BUT
decker is thrown into another part of the A.I's consciousness - the induced
reality is a beach with his last lover on it and on the horizon escape is
bizarre,  the closer he goes the further the distance becomes - her hacker
learns something important - he escapes by excepting the reality - walking
backwards and excepting this,  he translocated back in time and gets back
to a reality where the A.I is in the process of amalgamating him into a
satellite A.I - although some of his consciousness- fragments into
particles of data that immortalise him (for he accepts his predicament and
does not miss the flesh but for the Femme fatale who he has unbeknown to
her fallen in love...) - floating round the Matrix - living in what ever
reality he chooses to exist in and evolve with but sadly his reality can
never quite shake off the memory of this enigmatic woman -so he manages to
locate and make contact with sentenint some life instead,  in the hope of
finding some understanding and forgetting the Woman whose heart she trapped
within her permanent Mirror shades...

  Damn eh!! that version is not my film one-just to give you a taste of
it-that one is similar kinda to the plot of Neuromancer--but also different
again,  although my movie script uses similar characters the plot devices
are slightly different - I don't think William Gibson would mind too much.I
think the idea of art being transmitted and worked on by groups of people
each adding their own personal ingredient is very positive whether it
contains Quarks of their Essence or not-although I find it hard to believe
they could not leave any traces.I would love to do a bit of work like
that.I think it encourages interesting originality in a different form,
for eg poor old Van gough who could not sell his work to feed himself ended
up have his collected originals worth around 80 million in total (a bit of
a nasty Irony that) - that's a real industrial feudal state.Why have just
have one persons script,  why not have the contributions of many so as in
the final product it would come from differing perspective's, so more
people would find interest and enjoyment from it... But hey maybe I'm just
a bit lazy or I am finding it hard to simplify and actually get something
formulated that is not to complex but that has excitement & interest in the
cyber as a art form. As a first production for many (friends e.t.c) - who
will hopefully gain the satisfaction of it (if it gets done-lets be
optimistic now)...

    But one problem is I always,  just about tend to leave things to the
last minute and my perfectionism can become a heavy ball and chain holding
me back and inducing a paralysed neurosis of it not happening and get it
done!!So here goes it will have to be fast pascy and some what surreal but
yet get the complex messages across to The audience through a coherent
format - that leaves them with provoking images and ideas to rethink and
vusualize.it's gotta work-so  I have to organise it + keep up with work at
varsity and not fail...Geezz I don't think this will get posted I think I
might cut it up in to two peices...Nah keep it the way it is Me thinks-But
wait there is more-more--------
!!@#$%^&*()__+QQWERTTYUIOPASDFGGHJKLZXCVBNM!@#$%^&*()21673547972461869846916

If you want more-please go on they did take me ages to write and there's
bound to be elements of interst in the other installments-tahnx-bye-see you
in pt 2!!


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________



                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."
                                Socrates...





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Sep 11 19:41:43 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Cyber Community? MUDS, MOOS etc? Cyber Rape? "GrandFaloon? (Installment 2)
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:41:43 +1200


  Cyber-community seems to be living together without all the messy parts
that go along with having to deal with people's physical presence and
physical needs.Hey Ron that's an interesting idea and probably is a logical
point-But have you been on a MUD or a MOO or a chat line or anything-I'll
assume you have-well I find them to be quite interesting places,  there
quite a few interesting people who hang out there-it's has some rather
funny things I mean I dunno some off it seem a bit boring-but they kinda
quest through amassing equipment,  weaponry,  levels of experience,
spells,  skills.But the interesting part is there can quite often be messy
little squabbles and arguments amongst all this,  but also there is a sense
where you can band together with other people and they help you out on
these quests + you can quite often find some pretty interesting
conversation-silly and serious.Also what is really cool is there are not to
many inhabitants + you can use your imagination and use a command called
Emote-which lets you say that your character is say flyinging into space
and somersaulting or what ever you want-you could probably even have
virtual sex if you were so disposed-allot different-as you use you brain,
your language,  personality and imagination to romance and excite your
partner have never Experienced it myself although I have been kissed a
couple of times and that I must say gave me a pleasant little suprise it
got my happy chemicals going-so virtual sex or Cybersex could be even more
intense.So the physical presence and needs are not always blotted out-it
probably differs in the different groups and stuff-like the Cyber-L are
probably a different kettle of fish than the MUD & MOO players but I'm sure
they would get on or right.I even once read a review of some stuff going
down on a MOO-they are complicated-because you can have more freedom,  you
can create your own realities, land,  house,  spaceship e.t.c..

Apparently they had a problem with strange guy who was hassling a woman
player-what he did was manage to hack in and get her password and take her
over and make her look like she was doing lude things in front of her
friends-and way the community (whoops you don't like that word do you)
dealt with it, was they considered it to be character Rape and they ended
up Banning him from the community.Although I must admit there are no
barriers between gender,  race,  looks,  sexuality-which is always a good
start.Pretty interesting stuff...

I'm reminded of Kurt Vonnegut's notion of the *granfaloon*, exhibited by
strangers who feel they can be chummy with you if you happen to have some
odd factor in common, like both being from Indiana.
Yea I agree with that I have encountered that,  like you find out that you
both are interested in movies and making them-and you break down the
barriers of communication the situation then-becomes more intra-personal
and friendly.Sorry I seem to be in the dark about this shadow mystique
concept could someone please clarify this and enlighten it a bit more for
me?

OK-completed pt 2 congrats-now proceed on to pt 3-Race ya there!!


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________



                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."
                                Socrates...





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Sep 11 19:42:15 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Timothy's Leary's BOOK?  & assortments? (Installment 3)
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:42:15 +1200


  Yea Walter I gotta say I like the way you write it soundz good and makes
sense-the Woodstock-thing as Ron put it's a neat way of thinking,  it's
great hearing of how other people think and communicate their ideas and how
they get transmutated and added to and discussed to bring out fresh new
ideas that are pulled fourth through the looking glass to elevate us into a
better mode of self perception and knowledge to find and evolve ourselves
into more aware- PEOPLE-who push forward through the barriers into new
uncharted space-the Frontier-it's us-if I can call my self one-it's the
storytellers,  artists,  musicians who decode the scientific terminology in
layperson language that has been put forth to explain the chaos in our
world the unknown-the uncharted phenomena for James Joyce the Irish liteary
genius who created   a groundbreaking fresh new interesting style of
writing in which leapt ahead of it's comparatively stale literature
predecessors,  Imagine what Joyce could have accomplished with a word
processor,  for even later on a Physist borrowed a character name out of
the Dubliners-"Quark" and used it to explain a fragment-byte of
information-it's the artists who make the science interesting and more
easily understood by the masses so that we can evoulutionize into a more
stable form of existence and adjust to the new the ever increasing barrage
of new techknowledgy this century has heralded and find innovative ways to
use them for the better of EarthKind.So well whadda ya think of that
then-I've been reading Timothy Leary's book which is really cool and
thought provoking it contains masses of stuff about:Personal computers and
having your own creative power with them,  future predictions of new
tecknowledgy and it's impact,  interviews with many interesting
personalities-Wynona Ryder, David Bryne,

 William.s.Burrows, Andie Warhol,  William Gibson e.t.c + Philosophy,
Religion,  Art,  counterculture movements,  Drugs,  communication through
computers-(even a article on cybersex).It's a really well written book I
recommend it now if I can fully remember and visualise the title mm
mm...It's something like CyberPunk or CyberCulture-I think the previous and
counterculture,  It really fascinates me.The strange thing is my Mother
heard him briefly on the radio and he has contracted some kind of bad
cancer or something and apparently he is over joyed that he might
die-strange you may think,  well he's got a different perspective on
things-he's looking forward to discovering what's on the otherside after
death...???????????????????????????????????

Thought I'd make this one a bit shorter-more to come-just-click on pt-4!!


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________



                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."
                                Socrates...





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Sep 11 19:42:35 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Future-predictions from Leary's book? N.Z Internet Growth? (Installment pt 4)
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:42:35 +1200


Hi there-still with me OK:-

 Another thing I'll say that it took me a bit to get into the discussion
about working in corporations and the workplace I guess as I don't really
work-but it's interesting with all the hierarchies and games that most
bissness organisations go for-I think it's rather counter productive not to
have your workers productive in new innovative creative ways-Not a good
idea to cage them in.If in the future big corporations fight for
competition and rivalry and are bigger than the countries-they probably
will let the individual have more personal choice and freedom-so whatever
just not unless it's counter productive to the country-like say they would
not allow war-causes that is somewhat bad for profit.Instead of the money
being in the stock market-information in cyberspace or the Matrix will be
more important-Massive beautiful shiny towers of information will store all
the books, cd's, movies, videos, t.v programs e.t.c + there the information
will be extremely valuable and the skirmishes fought between corporations
will be favourable information-akin to currency or interchangeable their
about-these will b protected by I.C.E- (Intruder.Counter.Entity-or
something close to that)But these I.C.E are not impenetrable, as rogues,
hackers and deck cowboys manage to break through and steal this info on the
other companies and sell it on the black market to the highest bidder.By
around 2040 space will have been colonised by vast flash luxury space
stations where family's(not Genetic) of people with similar interests
hibernate and go together and set up bisnesses.People can look exactly the
way they want they can have muscles implants-change the whole structure of
their bodies or even clone themselves via D.N.A or save themselves on
Computer...

 There's some pretty far out ideas and time will only tell what's gonna
happen eh? But I guess these writers do predict things- Isaac Asimov
predicted the creation of robots and artificial Intelligence-he created the
laws that robots abide by,  so who Knows,  it could go either way?I mean
there could be a nuclear war-but I'm pretty pessimistic about
 that situation-it would be just too sad...

 I have noticed that the Internet is starting to take off more in NZ I have
noticed a considerable growth in web pages which is always good because we
don't have overseas access at UNI,  also it means maybe companies will have
to become more competive and offer better prices.I myself would love to
replace my old Amiga 500 for a Mac or a PC or a New model Amiga  and get
hooked onto the net-although it is still is quite expensive-But it's just
great having so much information at your finger tips-let your fingers do
the walking and the communication all round the world is great makes the
world a smaller place really...Also You can do some cool creative things on
the computer + you can disemminate your own information in amongst the
massive sea of people.

Still here good OK-not too much more to traverse-click to pt 5


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________



                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."
                                Socrates...





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Sep 11 19:43:02 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Community? Imaginitative ravings and philosophy? (Installment pt 5)
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:43:02 +1200


 As posted earlier, what is this hunger-to-commune about? I was actually
born on a hippy commune on January the 26th 1976...

Well I not sure exactly but it's really good to feel part of something and
contribute-last week I was put into a situation where I was invited to a
social gathering where I did not know many people-well I thought I
didn't-But it was fine I ended up having a great time staying there till
6a.m-it was great just to be a part of the group and talk to lots of
different people with different perspective's idea's it put my faith back
in the need for socialising-I mean I like hanging out with friends but I
don't all that often go out with or hang around with a large crowd of
strangers-well people I have not meet-but it was exciting and I guess It's
a similar attraction hear to-but off course it's different in other ways it
much easier you have to really worry about appearance,  it feels good
because it is a positive productive environment for airing ideas and
discussing them and making discovery-being in the thick of it-someone said
it was not all that physical but I feel like a can feel the resonance of
the humanity and the trace of a kind of personality fingerprint-
D.N.A-sequence that sets the needle apart from the haystack the seething
mass of humanity-things are your I don't know if controlled is then write
word but perhaps natural and sufficient information-ideas freely
disseminating around a group of searchers or interested people-doesn't
necessarily have to be a search by an avatar to find the symbol-the answer
the grail-hey maybe someone just wants to hang out around a philosophical
intriguing group of people-anything's possible if you put you mind to
it-the Brain-your Wetware are such power tools sometimes I kinda think of
how unaware we are of the overall size and capacity, the amazing dynamics
of this marvelous mainframe we all have in our heads, where we have a
virtual universe of stars connected to flux capacitor of neuron's giving us
electrical impulses-to go and exspore out there-widen our inner and outer
horizons--Imagine the hard drive space in that baby up in our skulls-if
only we the people of Earth could let go of the hangups-the instinctlually
fierce Hunter \Gattherer \Warrior \Feudal \Industrial-society-but hey that
history we learn from that we had to come from somewhere right?-we could
then drop the feigned mask of inbred stupidity and open up are brains to
immensely powerful Quarks-we could interconnect brains in Cyberspace a
communal sharing-not having to type through a console but actually sharing
linked thoughts -images -dreams -memories- scary\exciting uncharted
territory it's a tough job but somebody's gotta do it and it would be my
pleasure to be involved.It's funny this year I have taken a couple of
computer paper computer science and information science-I think my Cerebral
cortex resisted it-I have I bit off a math blocks and programming was such
a big step & of course it was rather dry-so as I'm my attention is rather
weak this year I managed flunk it and just about so for info but I'll think
I can make it although it will probably go no where-I dunno I wish there
was more of a creative right brain visual stimulating wet course on
computers-designing your own exciting personal Chaos to be probed and
explored-to do something original-fun-not dry boring-snoring half asleep
stuff...

Hope your finding this of some interest? well onwards and upwards!! see
next insatllment pt 6!!


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________



                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."
                                Socrates...





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Sep 11 19:43:21 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Me myself Tama Jamey Neill,  NZ local things-kinda.. The grand Finale
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:43:21 +1200


Wow last one-I'm so sad...-Not cause I can terrorise you with more-but not
in soo large quantities!!

  I would like to be involved in a somewhat artistic creative thoughtful
useful process-I'm interested in films and film making,  computers and the
communication and interrelations between people and their understanding of
it_user friendly-and I 'm quite into Drama and Photography I think that's
one of the things I miss at Uni is that I could not really do any Drama 1st
year, I probably could of got involved in a play pr something-but
everything is was so new and a bit scary and overwealming.Last year Drama
was a great time at Logan Park High School we won the NZ  theatre
federation for best youth play performance-It's was our best performance-we
were radiant- shineing out their on the stage-we were like one organism all
feeling the high of a great reservoir  of energy and  synchronistity
flowing over the stage and out into the audience-it was great!!Playinying
was 80% of the fun-the commradery and Winning was the Icing on the
cake-Yummy....So If I decide to go back to Uni next year I'll study some
English-cause I'm pretty good at that-I got 87% in bursary last year high
school + also the English lets me do film studies, practical drama,  script
writing, theatre studies-so if I pass anything this year it's gonna be my 2
prerequisite English papers! history and info science...Jeez what I have
wrote enough for a month's entries?

 Hey Walter you mentioned a couple of times-hinted that you were and are a
play write had a play preformed in New York-can you give me some
titles-well known plays of yours I might of heard of them-that's why we
came to Dunnedin in from Nelson because my mum's partner got a job being
the techie manager for Fortune Theatre-that place is pretty unhealthy
business operation-some of the plays re cool thought-the last one was a\
Jacobean Tragedy "The Revengers Tragedy" a bit long but quite good-but it
had 30 cast and crew in it so cost big-time did not pull in profit-they are
even advertising Roger Halls new play on TV-Social Climbers-he.' so funny
he's like Michael Hill's brother-Roger Hill...(there is no Roger Hill to my
knowledge)

Jeez I never expected so much would flow forth-I  even think I could
probably squeeze more out but I'll just go with the flow for now-can look
at more old issues and bring them up again another time-cause I'm exhausted
been up late pretty much oh well truth all night and all last night as well
slept 4 half hours so I might get moving and check out a music sale and get
home...
Well another thing I've been watching this intensely interesting guy on
E.T.V television 9:30 am Wednesday the mornings (NZ) who is interviewed all
about myths-I can't quite recall his name but he's pretty amazing-He made
me realise some really pertinent right on the target info-although I won't
go into it right now as I think I have said enoughh for the moment...  Me
thinks I'll have to break this down into several pieces how about I send
you the full copy of this + the editions of similar info-so it's not
entirely off setting and impossible to read.Okay well I hope my
contribution is appreciated by the collective Cyber-L  group - and I kinda
hope I'll get a little attention and exsposure over this.Thanx allot for
reading and listening.Anyones free to write to me personally-I love
mail-Luke Vearing kindly replied when my movie creation -CyberPUnk came up
and Miles and Walter wrote a very interesting creative short futuristic
piece in which was rather Enigmatic-hey maybe I'll have the A.I have female
traits-maybe when the decker turns into her A.I satellite it's like a
rebirth and she's a new Alien mother-an idea 0 Thanx for the ideas and
concern in the first place-I tried to mail you at Otago Miles the Rabbit
address just kept coming back in my face like a boomerang!! Oh well I fell
Slightly more satiated now that I have made a contribution and maybe I have
started up some interesting flashpoints for discussion...

Ok great having a bit of a rave-well I'll from you all in some way sooner
or later-looker forward to roasting a few Quarks over the proverbial camp
fire....
Hear from ya-See Yaz Later.Good bye.Exit Tama stage Left.@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

P.S have kinda put Mothra Video on backburner and am doing work a video's
not worth my UNi carrer I can do a better planned one next year eh?

P.S-2-This is taking me a while to get out as I had to spell check I wish
Eudora had one + next I have to cut It up into smaller parts-Geez oh well
here goes...

PS-3-Oh and Miles actually rang me up the other dau which was a helluva
suprise-but pretty cool-he's intersted in the movie if antything ever
happens that is-I't just might-fingers crossed!!

PS-4 I have just been happy to know a woman friend Claire has similar
feelings tahn-mine it's not so scary when I relise she is about as
confident as I.I'ts really good having a Plutonic frindship-this is the
first really good girl-Friend that a have we are not having a
relationship-although we probably could-it's probably best just to hang out
as freind and see what develops.She likes her personal space anyway,  shes
also not into being all that touchy-where as I'm really into giveing
affection and hugs-But she gives me lots of mral support,  advice and
encouragement for Uni-+she really caring-& we can hold really good
conversations...(Maybe I shouldin't of disclosed that but hey it does not
really matter I just thought I say something!!)

Well this is me Tama signing out finally-just a few minor judgements to
make and I'll go into town and try and catch a Bus home? Maybe or a could
ring Claire and see if they are going to the movies tonight... I hope some
of the stuff has not seemed trivial to any of you-I'm just exspressing my
thought and fellings-so If ya don't appreciate them dont read them(silly
defensiveness-but hey whatever)

Well I'm dyeing to hear what you people think and feel  about the info
contained in my lengthy discources...

Oh well places to go things to do...

Six is my lucky number... + a quote

Ka Kete Ano (Maori goodbye)  hear from you people soonish...

Tama Exits stage left with a florish of his Cyber Wings he soars off into
the sky-heading for the stars-his sillouette is lit by the afterglow of the
sun in a red golden haze of Starfire,  whisssshhh...


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________



                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."
                                Socrates...





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Sep 11 19:43:47 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Cool Qoute...
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:43:47 +1200


A long time ago, man would listen in amazement to the sound of regular
beats in his chest, never
suspecting what they were.... The body was a cage, and inside that cage was
something which looked,
listened, feared, thought, and marveled; that something, that remainder
left over after the body had been
accounted for, was the soul. Today, of course, the body is no longer
unfamiliar.... The old duality of
body and soul has become shrouded in scientific terminology, and we can
laugh at it as merely an
obsolete prejudice. But just make someone who has fallen in love listen to
his stomach rumble, and the
unity of body and soul, that lyrical illusion of the age of science,
instantly fades away.


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________



                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."
                                Socrates...





From ctpost@aol.com Wed Sep 13 02:08:56 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: all of this/catch-up
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 10:08:56 -0400


All,

I'm catching up after several days of business travel and, thinking back over
comments I've left here, realize that I have moved on (if only in circles). I
am thunderstruck by the depth of feeling in Dan's post. Dan, I don't mean to
sound all soft-male using the word *vulnerability*, but I am much more
impressed by the strength I sense underlying what you reveal of yourself than
I do in the bluff posturings of most people in the business world.  I so
often find myself, as a consultant, working with weak but ambitious men and
women, who know all the tricks of looking good but are a little
underdeveloped in other departments. 

>>>thankfully with silence and pretending nothing has happened, new skin is
forming over the unhealed wounds so we can smile together and get on with our
lives while trustworthy inner processes quietly do whatever they do with that
stuff.<<<

My first reaction was to be appalled by this, but I recognize it as a way I
have coped with authority problems at my job. I saw years ago that part of
the dysfunctionality of the company I work for is the playing of favorites
among employees -- it would go in cycles. You'd be in the dog house for a
while, no matter what; then you'd be golden again and someone else would take
a turn in the dog house.

Then I got caught unwillingly in the middle of an ugly and destructive
political battle between two execs 3-4 years ago, and finally went over their
heads to complain to the CEO. One guy eventually was fired; the other has
kept me at a distance ever since, leaving me permanently in the dog house.
Nothing openly adversive, just a constant low-grade thinly disguised
distrust. I suppose most people would have found another job by now, or quit,
but neither has been an option for me. 

This guy's presence in my work day (his office is only 3 doors down from
mine) used to generate all kinds of mental battles with him, but I can see
that on a personal level, his opinion of me is not my affair. I can't fix it.
 Professionally, of course, it has drawbacks, but the culture in the company
is such that I am not unappreciated by colleagues.  When he deals with me in
a shabby way, I usually just pretend that we are normally on the best of
terms. I push back as firmly as I can, but that's about as far as I can go. 

>>>This oversimplification of organisational life by focusing on the profit
objective protects the people who do it the most from experiencing the
complexity of the world.<<<

This sounds like James Hillman in *Kinds of Power*. He observes that focus on
cost control, at the expense of everything else, is imaginatively limiting.
Pushed to its limits it leads to the well-run death camp. The company that
employs me owes much of its current temperament to the presence of a very
hard-nosed financial controller. I remember thinking after having had to deal
with him on several unhappy occasions that I understood better the meaning of
the phrase *the banality of evil*.
     
>>>I guess the trick is to find balance. The taoist tree bending in the wind.
Gotta be so bloody perfect. Grrrrrr.<<<
     
I'm a softy for Lao Tzu, too. Certain translations of him have gotten me
through a lot of rough times. So has *Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind*.  It's the
practice of a kind of detachment -- yet I'm aware sometimes that my
detachment is a lack of connection with my own feelings.  And I become aware
that I am sitting on a great volcano of rage. I don't know what to do about
that. Grrrrrr, indeed. 

Thx,
Ron



From hoon@apk.net Wed Sep 13 04:19:53 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: re re re dada
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 12:19:53 -0400


 >  ____ Walter Logeman    walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
>  http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.htmlStephen

>  That list is powerful. I see a lot as I look at it with this
>  more objective eye:
>
>  order/chaos
>  teachers/students
>
>  >what strikes me is two elements *a woman* and your closing
>  *go back*.
>
>  What strikes you about that?

I wonder about what an amplification of the *a woman* element might bring
up. My projection of course: so much male/mentor/teacher and
logos/group/organization brought up in the dream, I'm intuitively focused
on what might be the hidden woman/anima/guidance aspect. However, your
being comfortable with the *present* < This RL walter feels OK about the
groups I am in, here in cyberspace as well as in RL! > is in interesting
contrast with the tensions of the dream.
>
>  >(Walter,) would you talk about any reflections you might
>  have had about breaking or widening the temenos when
>  deciding to post this dream?
>
>  Interesting question. (I understand temenos here referring
>  to the secure place in this list, the sense in which it is
>  like a temple -- a place of value and meaning, is that what
>  you mean?) I had a sense of adding to the temenos.-c- I thought
>  And I thought it related to the discussion about corporate
>  culture even.Certainly about leadership and power.
>
Certainly no sense of a sacred place in most enterprise organizations,
except for sometimes in the rest rooms. :)
>
>  Why do you ask? Did you have a sense of it making or
>  breaking temenos?

I don't know. My gut feeling is the sacred place, being a psychological
place, and being a place in which the underside may be turned over, and
exposed to light, necessitates certain agreed upon implicit/explicit ground
rules to enable the container to hold together. Can even such a container
exist in an environment in which, really, *sacred knowledge*, is shared
with...everybody?

It is a fascinating consideration...but I'm a bit overwhelmed by the
ramifications for the temenos in cyber-space. My bias is an orthodox one.
>
>  Ahhh! There is a lack of temenos in the dream group! And I
>  do think there is a lack of temenos in this Psybernet group
>  and also in the AION group. None of that is what I want.
>  What i say above about being delighted by these groups is
>  _partly_ true, but the dream reveals the other side. Lets
>  focus on this group. What would make for a stronger temenos?
>  Is it desirable? Can it be done in cyberspace?
>
Is no temenos more desirable than a leaky one? What I note is a tremendous
freedom of expression here in Psyber-L and that suggests the rules for
keeping the temenos glued together might not be easily applied. Our
self-revelation is sacred knowledge whether protected or not. So be it, I
say.

Walter: good to hear from you. The rules of bits and bytes and mailing
programs and the such, and the limitations of our personal time all add up
to a *learning as I go along* mode.

Best to all.

The meaning of life is that it stops.
-Frank Zappa





From jbaudhuin@spco.com Wed Sep 13 11:49:39 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: temenos
From: Baudhuin@southern.co.nz, Josh <jbaudhuin@spco.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 95 15:49:39 PST



     
     This is my first post. It occurred to me that your sense of a "lack of 
     temenos" had to do with people like myself >lurking< (not 
     participating). My experience in men's groups, where the experience 
     has been good, has been founded on ritual containment, which I think 
     is an outcome of ritual participation. Not all of the participation 
     needs to be >ritual<, but it may be that ritual establishes a strong 
     enough "container" (i.e., temenos) for the freer participation of the 
     individuals.
     
     Let me take the opportunity then, to participate in the ritual of 
     introduction:
     
     I'm a software engineer in California, interested in Jungian studies, 
     counseling psychology, astrology, philosophy, poetry, film. I came to 
     this list by way of the psybernet homepage, after doing a lycos search 
     on "Jung". I haven't joined the Aion list, but I am interested in 
     doing so (though I'm not sure where they are in the book at this 
     time...) 
     
     To date, I've been skimming posts, and holding back my responses 
     because I feel it takes a bit of time to formulate a sensible, 
     contributive post... Whatever! It seemed too ironic to keep my mouth 
     shut in response to this "stereoscopy (dream)/temenos" note... :)
     
     Cheers!
     
     - Josh


______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: stereoscopy (dream)
Author:  Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz> at internet
Date:    9/12/95 8:42 AM


Stephen,
     
Thanks for your response to my dream, I am finally here, 
responding to you!
     
Walter wrote:
> >  I am in fact delighted with the process of the groups, and 
> >  don't see the problems here in cyberspace that are in the 
> >  dream.  That is not quite right -- I feel terrible in the 
> >  dream and I feel OK here!
> 
> ??? Who feels what, where? :)
     
The dreamer feels bad about the dream group.
     
This RL walter feels OK about the groups I am in, here in 
cyberspace as well as in RL!
     
     
> 
> >  Either way I do not have a sense of making a personal
> >  disclosure here -- though of course I can't help but think
> >  of the whole thing personally as well, but that is secondary 
> >  for me right now.
> 
> >  crossroads
> >  railway station
> >  students -- lecturing and leading 
> >  a discussion
> >  teachers
> >  True to form
> >  his eyes.
> >
> >  not too well -- I know this
> >  different directions
> >  talking past -- walking
> >  destinations
> >  apologise
> >  not busy -- we planned the event. 
> >
> >  small groups
> >  ''sons'') , conspiratorial whispers 
> >  group together.  A woman
> >  Mt. Lyford photos
> >  should do
> >  order is completely lost.
> >
> >  chaos
> >  order -- vacuum
> >  wrong -- too close together -- despair -- 
> >  go back
> 
> Intuitive parsing...
     
     
That list is powerful.  I see a lot as I look at it with this 
more objective eye:
     
order/chaos
teachers/students
     
     
     
     
> what strikes me is two elements *a woman* and your 
> closing *go back*. 
     
What strikes you about that?
     
> (Walter,) would you talk about any reflections you might
> have had about breaking or widening the temenos when deciding to post this 
> dream?
     
Interesting question.  (I understand temenos here referring to 
the secure place in this list, the sense in which it is like a 
temple -- a place of value and meaning, is that what you mean?) 
I had a sense of adding to the temenos.  I thought the dream was 
about the Aion Reading group I am in -- but then I thought it is 
more about group process as a whole, and that to go on and on 
about that in the other group would _break_ the temenos there, 
because _process_ is not the "prime directive" (star trek 
terminology I believe).  Process _is_ of primary concern in this
list.  And I thought it related to the discussion about corporate 
culture even.  Certainly about leadership and power.
     
Since then I have seen it as very focussed on the discussion in 
Aion as well.  That does not take away from its place here.  
     
Why do you ask?  Did you have a sense of it making or breaking 
temenos?  
     
Ahhh!  There is a lack of temenos in the dream group!  And I do 
think there is a lack of temenos in this Psybernet group and also 
in the AION group.  None of that is what I want.  What i say 
above about being delighted by these groups is _partly_ true, but 
the dream reveals the other side.   Lets focus on this group. 
What would make for a stronger temenos?  Is it desirable?  Can it 
be done in cyberspace? 
     
     
Walter 
     
     
     
_____________________________________________________ 
Walter Logeman              walterl@chch.planet.co.nz 
http://vesta.chch.planet.co.nz/~walter/psybernet.html
     
     



From ctpost@aol.com Wed Sep 13 12:03:01 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: temenos
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 20:03:01 -0400


Walter/Stephen:

>>>I understand temenos here referring to the secure place in this list, the
sense in which it is like a temple -- a place of value and meaning. [snip]
Lets focus on this group. What would make for a stronger temenos?  Is it
desirable?  Can it be done in cyberspace?<<< 

This question interests me, too. I have become aware of sacred places in RL.
A beach near where I live, where I have had many conversations with Whatever.
Leaving it for 2 years during an assignment in the UK and now the prospect
again of leaving forever (relocating to LA) have been deeply felt. The first
time, I went through a process of saying goodbye and thanking it for its
unfailing availability to me. Knowing that this was necessary, and not
understanding at all why, as I had never been aware of a connection with a
place like this in my life before.

And now discovering that a photograph of the fields across the road from the
farmhouse where I was born holds a similar pull. It sits atop my computer at
work, a panoramic view (doublewide 35mm snapshot, taken in October on a visit
last year after a long, long absence), and I understand that somewhere in
those fields I want my ashes to be scattered. (I have never said this
anywhere to anyone else.)  

These associations are what your comments bring to mind, and I would like to
understand more about the feeling of Place that exists here for me.

Ron




From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Wed Sep 13 12:06:25 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: all of this/catch-up
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 13:06:25 +1300 (NDT)




Sheesh!! I'm getting all nervous now, I don't think I want to get a job 
at all. Sounds scary and unpleasant...

   Miles.


Ron ? / ctpost@aol.com wrote...
> This guy's presence in my work day (his office is only 3 doors down from
> mine) used to generate all kinds of mental battles with him, but I can see
> that on a personal level, his opinion of me is not my affair. I can't fix it.

> hard-nosed financial controller. I remember thinking after having had to deal
> with him on several unhappy occasions that I understood better the meaning of
> the phrase *the banality of evil*.
     
> detachment is a lack of connection with my own feelings.  And I become aware
> that I am sitting on a great volcano of rage. I don't know what to do about
> that. Grrrrrr, indeed. 

Just thought I would throw in my reaction/parsing. Look after thyself.




From hoon@apk.net Thu Sep 14 00:19:08 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: sacred in the ordinary
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 08:19:08 -0400



>  >>>what strikes me is two elements *a woman* and your
>  closing ***go back*.
>  -c-
>  I like the invitation -- the woman . . . . she is young dark
>  haired, competent and makes a short announcement something
>  -c-
>  _She_ seems to be destroying what little temenos there is -- the >
>personal photos are OFF task . . .
>  -c-
>  those e-mails I have never got back to.
>
>  Here it is again Back TO! what is that about? I always want
>  to get back to something -- or NOT -- as in not back to this
>  group in the dream -- I have not got back to the photos on
>  the WWW -- I suggested to the woman that people see her
>  Afterwards about the photos.
>
I hear *Get back to me!* The picture may be about grounding, immovable
*earthworks* and a symbol of the vertical, but I am intuiting ...or
intellectualizing ;-) a sense of RL earthworks...here is my own projection
(again) of bringing the work *back* into the world.

I am struck by something remarkable going on here. It harkens back to my
own initial contribution in which I amplified the origin of the word *net*
and found it is a feminine concept and linked to the Goddess. Do we have
here a startling (to me) reminder from the Goddess?

She: I am of the *net*, it's weaver, and, I am the breaker/strengthener of
temenos. ^Kali^? There is also the explicit transference of the RL (! now
there's an abbreviation) temenos, for which the appearance of the anima or
any strong outburst of the Gods/Goddesses serves as a stirring up of the
contents of the container: the container must be strong enough to hold the
tension.

I see the base of the mountain -it's a beautiful picture BTW- more relevent
than its heights...my bias of course.

What would the Goddess say about the psyber/cyber impulse? *Don't loose me?
Do not leave my substantiality behind? Don't leave the world?* This too
touches upon the previous post mentioning Icarus.She will break into the
group if necessary.

So many riches here. Your personal dream is public now...not to inflate it
much more than this...but, it seems to me to be about the group work and
may be a directive to us all. (I've always wondered about how group dream
work turns the personal dream into a public dream. My sometimes (!)
orthodox perspective would propose that group dream work might inspire the
unconscious to dream *group dreams*.)

I hear a strong woman's voice. Tama: your awesome post is, too, a direct
and exactingly timed reminder.
>
>  -c-
>  such a container exist in an environment in which, really,
>  *sacred knowledge*, is shared with...everybody?
>
>  We are doing it as you say further down -- but can we trust
>  it? More and more -- but not the _place_ perhaps as much as
>  the people -- slowly I build bonds with people (who have
>  projected faces -- is that why I don't post my picture ? The
>  projection would be destroyed?) I like the idea of the place
>  being solid too. Is that done by _ground rules_? I have
>  thought so in the past -- hence my regular posting of the
>  description of the group -- its purpose and focus. However
>  perhaps I should let 'the woman' speak? Actually that means
>  letting go and trusting the relationships here to hold the
>  space-- to make it a solid place -- dread -- is that
>  community once again?
>
Does this group have it's own anima? Or guiding Goddess? *net*...perhaps
also *web* and then *spider* and then *weaver*. But, I wonder how offended
the Goddess might be to hear ambivalence about *community*. Is not
ambivalence about community in some way also ambivalence about family? Here
too the connection with all of us wrestling with work issues and conflicts
with Saturnian and Apollonian *fathers*...back to puer/male issues.

>  -c-
>  >Is no temenos more desirable than a leaky one?
>
>  This stumps me. I can't envisage leaky temenos. It does not
>  come with leaks. I do know what you mean, I'd have said is a
>  No temenos better than a little temenos? I see us building
>  it little by little, and I like that.

So do I...and it seems quite possible. So far, in a month, I'm not only
impressed, but moved, by the solidity of the trust here. It may be the same
in many other groups, but amongst the groups I participate in, Psyber-L is
uniquely solid and thoughtful.

>
>  -c-
>
>  Is the self revelation the glue here -- no, but that is
>  close. It is the authenticity of the writing. The image of a
>  funnel comes to mind many things can come together in great
>  diversity and come through in a focused way -- connected.

The funnel? The Mountain turned upside down. A feminine symbol...and if you
don't mind me really intellectually inflating affairs here: rightside up
and upside down -together- an expression of quaternity.
>
>  -c-
>  Note about dada: The original title of this thread refers to
>  a comment i made somewhere I think, but now seems to relate
>  to temenos idea as well -- the whole dada movement was about
>  seeing art (sacred) in the ordinary. Relates back to Josh
>  and the sacredness of neon lights.
>
All of a piece...threads, weaving, nets, and webs. And the world as
symbolized by the mountain...pointing downward! The Goddess speaks twice:
thank you Tama.

Sacred in the ordinary, indeed.

We all weave together...if we perhaps keep heartfelt this idea, than I
suggest community is made sacred and the negative connotations may
-thankfully- escape from the container. Just a thought, didactic as it may
be. But, if I were the Goddess, I'd be a bit miffed at our troubles with
the word community, and I'd help us work it out.

Believe me I wanted to keep this short, but... Best to all.



A thin bright reed song,
if it should fade,
we fade.
RUMI pbuh





From hoon@apk.net Thu Sep 14 15:30:19 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: illimitably Tama.Neill
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 23:30:19 -0400


Tama: I am so struck by your post that I offer two poems -not by me *:) - as an initial reply ---others have spoken better of the onrush of exposing seed energy...IAC, thanks, you have left me speechless and a bit in awe. 


Sun With Hands for Rays

you big sun 
touching me like you own me
i will put rings on all
your fingers
weigh you down with
jasper and malachite.

you big sun
my lips are bloodstone 
sardonyx.

          and wait until you see the all
             the bracelets

^Diane Wakoski^


17: 1x1

one(Floatingly)arrive
(silent)one by(alive)
from(into disappear

and perfectly)nowhere
vivid anonymous
mythical guests ofIs

unslowingly more who(and
here who there who)descend
-ing(mercifully)touch
deathful earth's any which

Weavingly now one by
wonder(on twilight)they
come until(over dull

all nouns)begins a whole
verbal adventure to

illimitably Grow


^e.e.cummings^

Woody Allen
     "It seemed the world was divided into good and bad people. The good
     ones slept better... while the bad ones seemed to enjoy the waking
     hours much more."





From hoon@apk.net Fri Sep 15 14:30:37 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: sacred in the ordinary
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 22:30:37 -0400


>  >I hear *Get back to me!* The picture may be about
>  grounding, immovable *earthworks* and a symbol of the
>  vertical, but I am intuiting ...or intellectualizing ;-) a
>  sense of RL earthworks...here is my own projection (again)
>  of bringing the work *back* into the world.
>
>  I am almost unable to keep up with the images here.
>  Strangely I could not for the life of me see where the
>  vertical came in -- but now I have got it! Mt. Lyford ! For
>  e-mail you see Mt. Lyford is more of a house than a
>  mountain, my holiday home. There is a Mt. Lyford too, but
>  the photos were of the house!
>
>  For all that the place is earthy! and putting it like this
>  fits for me: Come back to earth!
>
>  Which is one of the two illusive elements in cyberspace,
>  water is the other. There seems to be no problem with fire
>  (flames - electrons - energy) and air (space intellect words
>  swords).
>
>  >I am struck by something remarkable going on here. It
>  harkens back to my own initial contribution in which I
>  amplified the origin of the word *net* and found it is a
>  feminine concept and linked to the Goddess. Do we have here
>  a startling (to me) reminder from the Goddess?
>
>  >She: I am of the *net*, it's weaver, and, I am the
>  breaker/strengthener of temenos.
>
>  Yes but what a strange temenos! A net! full of holes! in a
>  place where there is no water --
>
>  as I say that I know it is not right -- water= flow,
>  feeling, cups, heart. These things are here, but common
>  prejudice and immediate impressions of cyberspace would have
>  us beleive that this is not possible here and that us men
>  here are _avoiding_ intimacy!
>
>  We can be held in a net as we feel the water.
>
Then there is the fisherman's net, fully immersed in water. The
fish/fisherman also one of the millenial symbols too. The implications for
temenos you point out...but I think leaky but not leaking. Permeable?
Osmosis is apt too.

Regarding the nature of our forum...it allows anything in, huge bolts of
expression and energy and we in our consideration (poor word really,) may
act as the net's sieve.

In some ways I feel how we all honor this kind of process with our
seriousness, openness, and *allowance*. The net is quite flexible and I see
it's image in the water, weightless, plastic but not formless (at all,) but
completely functional.

Or, the image of a lower Nile fisherman's net: a woven reed funnel.

Is not our hunger exactingly for: intimacy? I, for myself, wonder about the
ease factor here; *wonderment* actually. It might get back to the narrative
about our struggles in organizations in which the nets are chain link and
fine mesh and intimacy and creativity are often kept on the outside.

The evidence seems to be the nature of the ongoing active imagination, and
the net accepting each subject on it's own terms; (Tama: here is
your/mine/our/everybody's story unfolding in psyberspace.)

Best to all.

The Buffalo Bridle:
You can make a buffalo go anywhere as long as they want to go there.

The Buffalo Bridle Corollary:
You can keep a buffalo out of anywhere just as long as they don't want to
go there.





From hoon@apk.net Sat Sep 16 01:40:16 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: parsing4Tama
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 09:40:16 -0400


^^you think well he's got a different perspective on^^
(intuitive parsing for Tama Neill)

Hey
helluva risk
one-go way
multi pretentious word guys
fathom catch O-now splurts spreading 
bit praising wanting fun WoW visions
futuristic JACK on in panoramic Seeker Space 
Dark hard Utopia procured stakes without free floating body
diving cracking self wish pop highs hell
right access back mode whirlwind dame 
delirious dangles somersault back desired
mysterious memory guards horizon
closer distance translocated
back back
reality
Matrix - Mirror
shades...Damn eh!! 
taste kinda slightly transmitted
groups personal Essence believe traces
love encourages originality feed collected Why
one persons script final differing enjoyment actually
formulated excitement art chain holding coherent provoking images
gotta work to two pieces...Nah physical
needs logical chat places hang funny
dunno boring spells squabbles silly
serious cool imagination Emote
somersaulting virtual brain
personality romance
partner 
myself intense
blotted fish players
sure on read down freedom
create o house Apparently community 
whoops Banning barriers between interesting stuff...
notion strangers feel odd common find out making
break down communication dark shadow enlighten bit
gotta soundz sense hearing looking glass
mode push storytellers explain chaos
unknown genius leapt character
byte artists understood
techknowledgy heralded 
EarthKind
So well 
whadda ya think
masses power impact personalities
Burrows Religion movements recommend visualise
title previous counterculture fascinates strange Mother
briefly contracted something apparently joyed die-strange 
you think well he's got a different perspective on

Woody Allen
     "It seemed the world was divided into good and bad people. The good
     ones slept better... while the bad ones seemed to enjoy the waking
     hours much more."





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Sat Sep 16 05:33:56 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: community
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 06:33:56 +1300 (NDT)


I'm sitting here in the middle of the night, and I really felt that I 
should mention that I appreciate the sense of community I get from having 
the computer tell me I have new email, even at six in the morning when 
the world is asleep. It is a nice diversion, so thanks.




From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Sat Sep 16 15:18:31 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: WoW!! what can I Say I'm blown up & away-out into space-Thanx-what a thrill!!
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 14:18:31 +1100


Hello,

  I would just like to quicklt say thanx to all of you people and the
attention you have given-It really feels great.A special thanx goes out to
Stephen who sent me some great poetry which really picked me up & now I
recieved a tottallly SPendlourous Mixiing and essence re-dub of my
posts-way out-How long did it take you-I love it-I might laser print it out
and put it over a background in my room!!

  Hey there Walter I will get back to you later as I have to work hard out
to get an over due essay!!
I was born in Raetihe (jeez I'm probably spelling it wrong) near Wanganui
on a commune called "Rivendell"-like out of the Lord of the Rings-its funny
cause I read a old brown peice of ppaper with the writing of all the people
at my birth and how touched they were by it-that was different.But I was
only in the Nth Island for a couple of years-I then lived in Marlborough
sounds in Sth Island-then Nelson then Dunedin...

The longest ever-OK-yea I Know the length of it was a bit much I was just
up early in the morning and all the energy and thoughts and feelings just
gushed out of me,  I hope you got splashed by some,  In the future I will
keep it smaller-I just felt like I had to catch up.

The Gen-X thing is intereseting-But what about the media on T.v they try to
exspose them to-real fast hard hitting colourful images-rapidly-because
their attention is supposed to be lower.I think it just might be me
Sometimes I can ramble-especially if I'm hyped up enough!!But I think I'm
starting to find a centre or carm to sort myself and Uni carrer out.I have
been seeing a counsellor for organisational reasons and thats good!!

 Well I think you should post some of the earlier Community discusions-this
Terminos thing is really fasinating & the goddess-What might happen-do you
think If a female precensce joined the group!!

 You liked my Maori farewell-I studied Maori for 2 years at school,  + my
name is Maori-I't means Boy or eldest son,  but I'm not Maori one bit-my
mother just liked the name,  + I think it is around the world to a friend
who travled found a town called Tama-she brought back a photo...

  Walter it seems there are other groups you run-what is the story with those?

  Well anyway really have to Go so best wishes to everybody,  hear from you
Guys later!!

P.s sometimes I actually send soem of this stuff to my close friends On e
who I have not met but who is a woman-she has not responded yet and another
really close childhood friend-well just thought I'd point out the clarity
and exspression can not but help sprinkle out and refresh other people-If
they are open to it-But it's not like I'm sendind it to everybody at my
varsity-like one gut did-for political reasons!!






                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Sep 17 11:56:01 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: kinds of power
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 23:56:01 GMT

Ron,

> Thanks, Walter, for posting excerpts from Hillman's *Kinds of Power*. 

I have come to Jung via Hillman, and have great respect for his
work -- but it has recently become clear to me how I have a
fundamental difference with him.  To the point where I want to
object and fight with him, even if he is a genius and an artist.

It is the simple fact that he values the life of the soul to the
exclusion of people and relationships.  This means he does not
see the fullness of the RL dynamic relationship parent and the
child -- or the relationship between the therapist and the
client.

It sounds like a small point but I think it affects his whole
attitude to child abuse and also to therapist client abuse -- and
makes the therapy unsound.  

I have grappled with this for years -- intuiting this from his
work -- but it came clear in  several articles in Spring 1985 on
"The Autonomous Psyche" There are Jungians opposed to him, who
see the relationship as a place of soul making, they are the ones
with clearer boundaries, and a stronger respect for original real
abuse.  I would like to read more of that, and will.

I want to say this more clearly -- and intend to write a paper
'one day' !  

It is very sad to me that one of the people I love to read and
admire has a streak which I really abhor, I hear it in an
arrogant tone in his tapes as well -- still it is out of that
sort of conflict that we move on. 

From what I hear you say this book sounds very good (I don't have
it)  I have no doubt it is beautifully crafted -- I am very
suspicious that the abusive streak is inherent in the book.  I
know that he has almost given up on therapy -- as being not
related to the city ie being a citizen -- etc.  But that is an
over reaction to his rarefied version of therapy.  I also suspect
that he takes his basic belief system with him into the corporate
world -- an impermeable membrane between the imagined
organisation and the RL one -- or am I way off beam?

There is a strong 'bias' here for me as I have had a difficult
period of psychotherapy with a 'devotee' of Hillman -- and I
think there is something in the basis of the theory that is the
problem -- perhaps even in Jung?   Or is this all my transference
on the therapist?   I have not seen him for almost 2 yrs and I am
contemplating going back to resolve some things -- fear that it
is out of the frying pan into the fire.  But I have the same fear
in _many_ places, so what the hell!



Walter.


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Sep 17 12:26:38 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: WoW!! what can I Say I'm blown up & away-out into space-Thanx-what a thrill!!
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 00:26:38 GMT

WoW!! what can I Say I'm blown up & away-out into
space-Thanx-what a thrill!!

Is that Icarus again?  Watch the wax! 

Tama,
 
> The longest ever-OK-yea I Know the length of it was a bit much I was just
> up early in the morning and all the energy and thoughts and feelings just
> gushed out of me,  I hope you got splashed by some,  In the future I will
> keep it smaller-I just felt like I had to catch up.

I think if you need to gush, gush.  Go for it -- and just so that
you know I mean it I intend to (one day) at least match your post
for quantity.  You see the post had quality -- that is what
counts.

I have not finished with it yet.

>                 "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

Dis he really say selves?  Did he have MPD (Multiple personality
Disorder?)

> "I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

In the light of what I have been writing about Hillman (just
posted in Kinds of Power)  I think it would not do to
underestimate what a real change in the 'inner' world would do to
the RL world. 

> You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
> >point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

Here we go.  Is the Star Wars Trilogy a story about the nature of
our soul?  Or is it an allegory about the Internet?  (joke)
Seriously, I have been thinking about a fundamental question:

Is the universe/cosmos/God  basically good.  Is evil just  human
error, which we can correct by voting for the Alliance or
whatever?  

Jung called the theory _privatio boni_ absence of good?  ie evil
is the only absence of good, and has no real substance.  He was
against it.  Utterly opposed to it.  Evil exists, and we'd better
know it or it will get us.

Now:  where does Darth Vader fit into that?

My hunch is that Yoda?  has been reading too much "Course in
Miracles" 

 
Walter.



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Mon Sep 18 02:09:15 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: selves-knowledge
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 10:09:15 -0400


I can't/won't ask permission to bore in on the group (hey gang!) with the following pearls, but I'd like to offer these mostly to give Tama a taste of the esteemed, flawed Mr.Jung. Anyway, Walter, you put the BIG question up -> Is the universe/cosmos/God basically good. Is evil just human error, which we can correct by voting for the Alliance or whatever? So a few quotes from Chairman Carl Gustav seem appropriate.

Thanks for indulging me. In two parts.

p1 selves-knowledge

>  >The longest ever-OK-yea I Know the length of it was a bit
>  much I was just up early in the morning and all the energy
-c-
>  that you know I mean it I intend to (one day) at least match
>  your post for quantity. You see the post had quality -- that
>  is what counts.
-c-
Is the gauntlet thrown down? Heck, wait til you see what I can do with too much idle time and a text editor. :)
>  
>  >"The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_-
>  Socrates... 

Did that scavenger Plato crib "Know Thyself" from the inscription at The Temple at Delphi? I think it was on the mantle over the entry-way to the computer center.

>  Dis he really say selves? Did he have MPD (Multiple
>  personality Disorder?)

Jung's update, of course: Know Thy Selves. Individuation in a nutshell.
>  
>  >"I can't change the world but I can change the world in
>  me."- _U2... 
>  
-c-
>  Is the universe/cosmos/God basically good. Is evil just
>  human error, which we can correct by voting for the Alliance
>  or whatever?
>  
>  Jung called the theory _privatio boni_ absence of good? ie
>  evil is the only absence of good, and has no real substance.
>  He was against it. Utterly opposed to it. Evil exists, and
>  we'd better know it or it will get us.

Jung: "the wrong we have done, thought, or intended will wreak its vengeance on our souls, no matter whether we turn the world upside down or not."

Jung's least comforting insight, albeit it extends into a galvanizing and difficult and profound *hope* and *promise* for our human nature and process.

"Opposites can be united only in the form of compromise, or, irrationally, some new thing arising between them which, though different from both, yet has the power to take up their energies in equal measure as an expression of both and neither. Such an expression cannot be contrived by reason, it can only be contrived by living." (Psychological Types; 169)

"Religion means dependence on, and submission to, the irrational facts of existance." (Civilization In Transition; 505)
>  
>  Now: where does Darth Vader fit into that?

One of Jung's heaviest ideas was that ^Good and Evil are not distinct in the unconscious^. 

"God has a fearful double aspect: a sea of grace is met by a seething lake of fire, and the light of love glows with a fierce dark heat of which it is said ^ardet no lucet^ -it burns but gives no light. That is the eternal, as distinct from the temporal, gospel: one can love God but must fear him." (Answer to Job, CW 11; 733)

"And where would God's wholeness be if he could not be wholly other?" (Eranos Conference 1940/41; 13)

"It is no easy matter to live a life that is modelled on Christ's, but it is unspeakably harder to live one's own life as truly as Christ lived his." (Psychology and Religion, East and West; 522)

Stupidity is the mother of the wise, but cleverness never.
C.G.Jung





From hoon@apk.net Mon Sep 18 02:09:20 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: WoW! (yodadada)
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 10:09:20 -0400


p2  Yodadada

>  
>  My hunch is that Yoda? has been reading too much "Course in
>  Miracles"

I think here Walter, you're being harsh. In the twelve steps of AA there is #4 Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of our wrongs, then, to step #6,
Humbly asked him to remove all our shortcomings. Whereas "Course In Miracles" speaks of atonement leading to at-one-ment, and does so similarly. So, each process acknowledges -De profundis clamavi ad te, Domine- "from the depths they cry unto God" even if their formulation ignores, as Jung also noted: "There can be no doubt that man's importance is enormously enhanced if God himself deigns to become one."

My point is this: even though there are numerous paths prescribed to confront and utterley erase evil in our nature, their very impossibility ultimately may set one into a confrontation with one's nature and its paradoxical inclusion of evil. True, one may identify with such a process and become inflated, become "spiritualized" ... (thus, the self-proclaimed guru's shadow is terrible and may, as Jung saw it, implicate a realizable aspect of the collective shadow, i.e. Satan,) and, yet, the consequences of this absolutism seem inevitably drawn toward the possibility of being worked out, consciously or unconsciously; if not in this life, then in the 'next'.;^)

"Course In Miracles" may read black and white but the gray is hidden within it. Or, meditation may promise a perfect emptiness but first one is forced into a horrifying self-observation, or *selves* observation. The meditative tradition sharply draws a key distinction. Our physic powers cannot create non-existance, but can partake of the exquisite balance between existance and non-existance, and, can help the Self mediate between its selves and our life, and, can understand the play of the will, and, can travel the spiraling path of *know thyself/selves*.

To a perfect conclusion? Cessation of suffering? "All formations are impermanent; all formations are subject to suffering; all formations are without a self." (Anguttara Nikaya; 'word of Buddha')

Jung spoke both of individuation being about completion of the personality; the opus being the goal; and also: "What does 'wholeness' mean? I feel that there is every reason here for some anxiety, since man as a whole being casts a shadow."

"To round itself out. life calls not for perfection but for completeness; and for this the 'thorn in the flesh' is needed, the suffering of defects without which there is no progress and no ascent." (Psychology and Alchemy; 208)

The sage said: "The ego's formeost trick is to propose it's own eradication." The conceit is exposed. 

I grapple with this but I know that: not an atom moves without Him...  (One of the divine names of Allah is Al-Khafid, the Abaser.)

Jung: All the worlds that have ever existed before man were physically there. But they were nameless happening, not a definate actuality, for there did not yet exist  that minimal concentration of the psychic factor, which was also present, to speak the word that outwheighed the whole of Creation: That is the world, and this is I! (Mysterium Coniunctionis; 129)

But if we love ourselves, and we make discoveries, and then we see what we are and what we should love. There is nothing for it but to foot our foot into the serpent's mouth. He who cannot love can never transform the serpent, and then nothing is changed. (The Symbolic Life; 87)

Something so simple is so provocative. "I was a hidden treasure, and I loved that I be known so I created the World."

Finally, Jung, souding every bit the sage: All good things are costly.

To which Steve remarks: (My) Life is quite messy and interesting. Fun more often than not, but not *too much* fun either.

Tama: all quotes drawn from C.G.Jung: Psychological Reflections; Jacobi & Hull; Bollingen/ Princeton...a place where you might begin. You'd surely enjoy Memories, Dreams and Reflections, Jung's memoir (!) See, too, if you can find a copy of Helen Luke's Kaleidoscope and June Singer's Boundaries of the Soul. Both readable and engrossing forays into what some may call Jungian or Analytic or Archetypal (that rascal Hillman!) but what I think of as Soil-psychology.

Best to all.

Stupidity is the mother of the wise, but cleverness never.
C.G.Jung





From crandow@chch.computerland.co.nz Mon Sep 18 18:26:10 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Whoa!
From: CHC-Dan Randow <crandow@chch.computerland.co.nz>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 18:26:10




Text item: Text_1

     Hi All
     
     Returned today from trip away to a blizzard verging on avalanche 
     of emails!
     
     ?White-out?white noise?
     
     Just making myself a wee snow cave.
     
     Dan



From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Sep 18 22:20:38 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Imaginary Communities & Contact Zones
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:20:38 GMT

I posted this to future culture, and am re posting it here to
Psybernet.

Quote:


Greg said:

> 1. I think the Net is the epitome of an "imaginary community."
> Whereas I think Anderson was referring to abstract ideas of
> national identity, it seems to me that the idea of community that
> gets batted around the Internet (and especially FC) is about 99%
> imaginary because, with a few exceptions, most of us have never
> layed eyes on the other and do not exist as a community *in real
> life*.  And, no matter how much we sometimes think otherwise, we
> all have to live in the real world first and the virtual world
> second.

I enjoyed this post.  This brings us into the part imagination
plays in relationships.   It is enormous.  In 'analysis'  or even
ordinary psychotherapy people spend years sorting out the
projections they make on each other.  The therapist often remains
artificially distant so that the projections (of the imagination)
can have more play.  Greg, you are right, community and all
relationships here are epitomised by the high propensity for
imagination.

As someone has already said (Joshua?) your point is that all
community has this imaginal factor.  I hit this really crisply at
a dinner party (contact zone) when someone said 'what is
cyberspace?' I used the phrase from Bruce Stirling who said it is
where a telephone conversation takes place, not in the plastic
devices, not in the wires, not in our heads -- "The indefinite
place _out there_ where the two of you, human beings, actually
meet and communicate."  _Hacker Crackdown_.  My friend Kate was
quick to say "you mean like now not here in our mouths but in our
minds."  Yes.  

Just as there is intensity and psychological life in the
therapeutic hour -- partly because of the imagination -- so this
happens here -- this is the epitome.  Let me try this:  Community
is imagination, community is MYTH, and we cant avoid it even if
we try!


Walter 


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Sep 18 22:20:46 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Imaginary Communities & Contact Zones [courtesy greg Ritter]
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:20:46 GMT

This message is the second  of two by Greg Ritter  to future
culture that I am posting with his permission.  He is not a
member of this list .   I will also post up my reply to this post
as it appeared in Future culture.



quote:


To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC
<FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Imaginary Communities & Contact Zones
From: Greg Ritter <gritter@HIBBS.VCU.EDU>
Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 14:05:50 EDT

Dylan said:
>
> It is the consensus of the list that education is very
important. Most of
>  us here are either institution educated or self-taught, like
myself.
>
> I think that the one think the future needs the most is a new
paradigm of
> education. Might not we be the best ones to accomplish this?
>
> We need more direction from all of us, to a specific place that
this community
> should be at. This is happening just by the forces aroung us,
like the domain
>  name/credit thing. I think that the reafirmation of what we
are would be a
> good thing. We are a community. We need to become as close to a
real community
> that we can. This should include schools, shopping,
entertainment, and anything
>   else that we can think of. So what does the list think that a
community
> should have?

(Did you miss my "COMMUNITY=MYTH" rant a couple of weeks ago?
Let me know if you did, and I'll forward it to you as my answer.)

But for a way more academic answer:

I was reading an essay recently called "Arts of the Contact
Zone," by Mary Louise Pratt, and she references Benedict
Anderson's book _Imaginary Communities_.  Anderson argues most
human communities exist as imaginary entities in which people
"will never know most of their fellow-members, meet them or even
hear of them, yet in the mind of each lives the image of their
communion....Communities are distinguished by...the style in
which they are imagined."  Pratt points out that the "imaginary
community" is basically utopian in nature, "embodying values like
equality, fraternity, liberty, which the societies often profess
but systematically fail to realize."  Pratt's essay addresses
"contact zones"--points where cultures/groups meet or clash,
"often in the context of asymmetrical relations of power" and
deals with the kinds of artistic endeavors that arise out of
those zones.

Several points:

1. I think the Net is the epitome of an "imaginary community."
Whereas I think Anderson was referring to abstract ideas of
national identity, it seems to me that the idea of community that
gets batted around the Internet (and especially FC) is about 99%
imaginary because, with a few exceptions, most of us have never
layed eyes on the other and do not exist as a community *in real
life*.  And, no matter how much we sometimes think otherwise, we
all have to live in the real world first and the virtual world
second.

2. Dylan, bless his young heart, has already shown himself to be
pursuing utopian ideals, so it doesn't surprise me that he is a
proponent of this "imaginary [Net] community"

3. I agree with Pratt's assessment of "imaginary communities" as
essentially utopian and exclusionary, which was pretty much my
argument in the COMMUNITY=MYTH rant.  The so-called "FC
Community" is actually a pretty small section of frequent posters
to this list, yet it often claims (or borders on claiming, IMO)
to be speaking for the list as a whole.  The list and the "FC
community" are not one and the same, just as the "idea [or
ideal!] of America" is only reflective of a small fragment of the
actual country.  In other words, I think the talk about deciding
"a specific place this community should be at" is a utopian
enterprise that will fail to meet the goals it professes because,
as an "imaginary community," it is not really inclusive.
(Though, I would certainly agree that it is more inclusive than
some others.)

4. I've been thinking about this for several days because I'm
reading the Pratt essay with some of my freshman composition
classes (they liked Freire better!).  Interesting synchronicity
that Dylan should give me a forum for what I've been thinking
about.  At first, I was thinking the FC would qualify as a
contact zone, and it may in some ways, but upon further
reflection I think that for the most part it does not.  One of
the characteristics of a contact zone that Pratt emphasizes is
the "asymmetrical relationships of power."  Now aside from some
potential asymmetrical rhetorical power relationships (i.e some
people exert more rhetorical force on the list than others), I
would argue that the list members do not really have
"asymmetrical relationships of power."  Though we come from
different backgrounds (cultural & economic), we are all
presently, as evidenced by our very participation here, part of a
technical-educated elite.  I think that links us more,
power-wise, than our various backgrounds separate us.

So the interactions that take place here are not the interactions
of the contact zone where "asymmetrically powered"
cultures/groups clash or attempt to interact.  I have seen
contact zones involving the Net, though, particularly in
instances when I have introduced my students to computing and the
Net.  It's interesting to see a total Net novice (i.e. someone
not privy to the technical knowledge) attempt to interact with
someone whose Net-power is asymmetrical (i.e. is Net-proficient).
You *really* see the exclusive power of the Net in those
instances.

Pratt discusses how the European bourgeoisies used writing and
literacy to cement the supremacy of their imagined community.
I've written here and on Cybermind before about my idea of
"hyperliteracy" (people interested in reading the essay in which
I developed that idea can e-mail me privately)--the argument
being that there is a literacy unique to computer environments
(which I term "hyperliteracy") that is separate from our normal
concepts of literacy.  I think in those contact zone situations
between the Net-novice and the Net-proficient I see the
hyperliteracy of the Net-proficient being used to cement the
heirarchical power of the Net-proficient.

Interestingly enough, the imaginary community of FutureCulture is
"based" precisely on a beautiful example of just such a literacy
difference in a contact zone--Andy's Bubble Manifesto.  In the
manifesto, Andy describes watching a Net-novice friend of his
attempt to relate to an obviously more Net-proficient individual
on IRC, a Net-proficient individual who abused the Net-novice.

5. Finally, let me get around to an answer to Dylan's original
questions about what direction we should take the "community."
Pratt argues that the contact zone can be a space to break down
the marginalization of the non-dominant literacy/culture.  The
dominant power structures avoid the contact zone because it
threatens the heirarchy that maintains their imaginary
community's dominance; in a contact zone the dominant
literacy/culture is challenged by the clash with the Other.

Therefore, my answer to Dylan is that we should NOT try to come
together more as a community; I see that as solidifying our
separation as a technical/virtual elite from other less-elite
"cultures".  Instead what I propose is that we, Net-society, and
RL-society would be better served if hyperliterate, Net
"communities" actively tried to place themselves in contact zones
with the non-hyperliterate.  We would be better served by seeking
out ways to involve the non-hyperliterate and promote the clash,
critique, transculturation, autoethnography, and cultural
mediation (Pratt's terms) that serve to break apart the hegemony
of the imaginary community.


Whew.

And, in closing, I should mention that I'm trying to put together
a research project for next semester testing these ideas in
computer-assisted composition classrooms and am hoping to get
some money & publications out of it. In other words, I am hereby
declaring my copyright of these ideas and threatening nasty
bodily harm and legal nightmares for any of you other loopy
academic types out there who even conceive of using any of these
ideas without giving me a whole hell of a lot of credit.  (How's
that for academic paranoia?!?  I guess I could have just said
Copyright 1995 by Greg Ritter, but this way was more fun!)

Sources, FYI:

Pratt, Mary Louise, "Arts of the Contact Zone," from _Profession
91_ (reprinted in the anthology, _Ways of Reading_, edited by
David Bartholomae and Anthony Petrosky. New York: St. Martin's,
1993).

Anderson, Benedict, _Imagined Communities:  Reflections of
Origins and Spread of Nationalism_.  London: Verso, 1984. (quoted
in Pratt's essay)

--
Greg Ritter
gritter@hibbs.vcu.edu
ritter@urvax.urich.edu

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Sep 18 22:23:19 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: 'THE'COMMUNITY=MYTH [RANT!!] [coutesy Greg Ritter]
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:23:19 GMT

This message is the first of two by Greg Ritter  to future
culture that I am posting with his permission.  He is not a
member of this list .   

Walter.
 
quote:


Reply-to: "Future Culture" <FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
From: "Greg Ritter" <eng3ghr@HIBBS.VCU.EDU>
Originally to: "Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC" 
               <FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
Sender: "Future Culture" <FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
Original Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 21:55:25 EDT

In response to Tony, JP said:

>  I'm starting to think that FC is more like the Republican
Congress would
>  like a list <;  Lots of rules.  Sure ain't alt.2600 <;

And, also in response to Tony, Darren said:

>  Perhaps the problem is that this list is in danger of becoming
a place where
>  ideas and opinions are going to be "attacked" and must be
"defended" by
>  "returning fire" with an aim to (albeit "discursively")
"stomp...opponents"
>  rather than a forum for the exchange and discussion of ideas.
<shrug>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
>  Darren Osadchuk
(dosadchu@sol.uvic.ca)


: set RANT = ON
: execute


THBBPPTHHHHHH!!!!

FC has *ALWAYS* been a place where ideas are "attacked,"
"defended," and "stomped."  I'm getting ready to start Year 3
with this list and I have *NEVER* seen the list go more than a 5
or 6 weeks without some kind of heated debate where people's
feelings are hurt.  So you know what?

GET OVER IT, PEOPLE!!

There is some kind of MYTH about FC being a totally open,
inclusive community.  Well, bubble-bursting time, folks.  IT'S
NOT  It's a loose group of predominantly liberal intellectuals
who have a few interests in common and enjoy butting heads on
those things they don't agree on.

And some of these people manage to butt heads, throw punches,
rake each other over the coals, call each other names, tell each
other how full of monkeyshit they are, but still have respect for
each other.  Why?  I don't know.  Shawn's called me a fascist;
why do I still respect him?  Probably because in the long haul I
learn from butting heads with him.  I've been raked over the
coals by Marius, Evan, Alan, Dwayne, et al; why do I still
respect them?  Because in the long run I learn from them.  Some
people I butt heads with and never learn a thing from them.
Those ones I IGNORE.  Amazing how good ignoring someone can make
you feel.

People sign up on the list, speak their mind, then go rant raving
nuts when people tell them they're breathing ka-ka.  "Why how
dare you!  I have a right to say and think what I want!"  You
sure do, bub, and everyone else in the world has the right to
tell you you're a bonehead.  You've got a choice:  a) get over it
and appreciate the fact that someone cared enough about what you
wrote to contradict you or b) the door outta here has the big
UNSUB sign right over top of it--use it.

Nobody said it would be pretty.  It's often not even pretty among
those of us who consider each other friends.

(And just to get off trakc, I personally think both Tony and
Shawn have BOTH been ninnies--Tony whining about being "attacked"
and Shawn whining about how annoying Tony is.  IGNORE EACH OTHER
fer chrissakes.  Nobody's holding a gun to your head saying
"Argue with the twit."

The fact is, boys and girls, if you weren't enjoying the fight
you wouldn't stay in the ring.  We're not getting paid for this.
So quit bitching when you catch a hard uppercut to the chin; you
made the decision to get in the ring.  There's no contract that
says everyone in the world has to be nice to you.

Those of use who have SOMEHOW forged friendships and respect out
of this mess have managed to separate the act of arguing from the
person making the argument.  You can't always make that
separation, probably because sometimes you honestly just don't
LIKE the person.  THAT's OK!  You don't HAVE to LIKE EVERYBODY
and everybody doesn't have to like YOU!  It'll never happen
anyway.

However, there's a solid core of list members who all like each
other.  And guess what, Mystery Listmember X?  You might not ever
get in to that group.  Sorry.  Live with it.

Yes, it is a community.  It's true.  People get together in RL,
people get together in other virtual localities, people
communicate off-list, people help each other out professionally,
people even fall in love fer petesake.  There's a fairly large
group of people who have been subscribed to this list for a long
time, who like each other, respect each other, and stay in
contact with each other.

And just like every other goddamned community in the whole world,
NOT EVERYBODY FITS INTO IT.  Some people never fit in, some
people grow into it over time (took me a year and a half to feel
even a remote sense of it), some people were apparently
programmed with the proper gene and fit in from the get-go.

Hate to say it 'cause it's gonna be real unpopular among Those
Who Tote The Community Flag, but signing on to the list doesn't
make you a member of that community.  Even *participating*
doesn't make you a member of the community. What DOES make you a
member of the community?  Just like anywhere else--you have to be
accepted by the current members.

That's the way interpersonal relationships work, folks.

BUT HERE COMES THE GOOD NEWS!

THE LIST IS NOT THE COMMUNITY AND THE COMMUNITY IS NOT THE LIST.
Here, let me be even more repetitive than I always am:  THE LIST
IS NOT THE COMMUNITY AND THE COMMUNITY IS NOT THE LIST.

You can be an active participant on the list, you can be a vocal
member of the list, and YOU CAN TAKE WORTHWHILE THINGS FROM YOUR
PARTICIPATION ON THE LIST without ever feeling a part of the
community.  I did it for over a year.  Enjoyed the hell out of
the list, posted every day, and had almost no contact off-list
with anyone.  Didn't know them from Adam.  Even now, I only feel
a sense of community or personal relationship with very few of
the list members, and the rest of you don't mean a hill of beans
to me.

I know how much you all want me to love you, but get over it
already. ;)

Come to think of it, there's probably WAY MORE than JUST ONE
community on this list.  I don't consider JP, for example, part
of my community, but there may be people on the list he shares a
sense of community with.  (No offense, JP, you're just the first
example that popped into mind.)  I know in the past there's been
a lot of offlist communication between the conservative wing of
FC--that probably qualifies as an FC community, separate from the
liberal academic weenie community.

A SINGLE FC COMMUNITY IS A MYTH.  It just so happens that several
years ago the active list members were mainly us liberal academic
weenies.  And the liberal academic weenies became friends and
included some other newer liberal academic weenies in their group
and so on and so on.  And they started referring to themselves as
a community.  Which really made life difficult for the
non-liberal-academic-weenies who eventually made their way to the
list.

So?  Deal with it.  You'd have the EXACT SAME PROBLEM if you were
the new kid in moving into the neighborhood from out of town.
You make some friends, you make some enemies.  If you and your
friends are big and strong enough you go beat the tar out of the
old neighborhood gang and then you get to rule the 'hood.

HEY NEWBIES!  Don't let the community-mongers scare you off.  No,
everybody IS NOT in "the" community, the "traditonal FC"
community, but there is room for everybody on the LIST.  (The
list is not the community and the community is not the list,
remember?)

You might have to learn to deal with getting told you're full of
ka-ka a lot, but confrontation can be fun if you approach it with
a grain of salt and try to learn from it instead of only trying
to preach your own gospel.

And my guess is, there's probably room for more than just "the"
community on FC, and FURTHERMORE there is probably ALREADY
*SEVERAL* different communities, subcultures, and other such
self-organizing systems in effect.  They just haven't built their
numbers up enough to kick the butts of those
liberal-academic-weenie-bullies.

FC is becoming more like a town than most list members like to
think.  We like to pretend like it's this single community, but
it's really a bunch of different neighborhoods butting up against
each other.  And when some kid from that other FC neighborhood
strays over into our FC neighborhood, we break out the rumble
gear and its West Side Story time ('cept we don't dance as good).

: set RANT = OFF
: quit


--
Greg Ritter
eng3ghr@hibbs.vcu.edu


--- MailGate 0.21
 * Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b (3:770/270.10)
 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Tue Sep 19 16:24:56 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Personal guff and answers?
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 16:24:56 +1200


Ki Ora Katoa

Hi there guys-
 (sigh-still just guys-it would make it more interesting with a woman
presence-not that you guys are'nt interesting-you are BUT it would give
some more perspective-ya Know?)

>Is that Icarus again?  Watch the wax!
 -Oh yea I would just love to be able to fly- & - space is a unexsplored
kinda place- so soaring up away into the deep unfathomable reaches of
space,  would kinda be adventerous,   heroic.So soaring wieghtless and free
from all worries appeals to me-every now and then an exscape from reality
and exspression of the Imagination is FUN-and healthy!!

>I think if you need to gush, gush.  Go for it -- and just so that
>you know I mean it I intend to (one day) at least match your post
>for quantity.  You see the post had quality -- that is what
>counts.-Gee thanx yea I'll go with the flow...

>I have not finished with it yet.OK

                 "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

>Dis he really say selves?  Did he have MPD (Multiple personality
>Disorder?)
- Ha ha ha 8)...  Well thats the form I got it from leary's book so I guess
so-It would make it more interesting if he did wouldin't it-maybe you have
found out his secret-they'e'll have to change the history books now that
Walters on the case!!

>> "I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

>In the light of what I have been writing about Hillman (just
>posted in Kinds of Power)  I think it would not do to
>underestimate what a real change in the 'inner' world would do to
>the RL world.

  -Sure thing-we have together people-we have more coherent, happy
relationships & if people can rely on themselves and be able to access
their inner focus and vica versa be able to let down their walls and "Risk
intimacy by telling people about...themselves.You thus become more
vunerable to being abused and rejected,  embraced and accepted"-Sol Gordan
(Flash Gordan) Although I think it's much easyier to let go and share
intimacy in Siberia(a.k.a-cyberspace)-although the fruits are different
than RL world.


  -Lately I have been having a plutonic relationship with a friend Claire &
I managed to pick up enough courage to ask for a friendly hug aven though I
knew she found touching and intimacy difficult she said "Go on then"-I was
running late for a movie.But WoW oh Wow just the small touch of snuggleing
up to her aginst the wall for a couple of seconds, I kinda transcended
myself-I forget about thinking-I just felt and I was being there-but I had
to go.

 - The next day (poor claire is a bit ill) I try to communicate and ask her
about what happened last night-she just said she was suprised and I
could'nt manage to find anything else out.But that night a read some
teenage self help books-although they seemed young reading,  they were
still great-One called Heart Smarts talked about seperating thoughts &
rather feeling through the heart-it was good I realised sometimes I think
too much & mange to broil up a foul concoction of seething feelings-whicha
i could learn to let go and leave the stress behind.

- Well Mum also said that I tend to take things too seriously and are a bit
intense at times-Maybe I need to step back and laugh at myself.Anyway I
find myself talking to friends about claire & then saying "but where just
friends"-they said it's like your punishing yourself-it sounds like you
want more!!

-  My thoughts say you got exams-claire does not want realtionship as has
enough to concentrate on-but I can't but feel I want to be with
her-although the book-The Teenage Survival handbook-said you have to not
need someone, but really want the person- & I want the friendship-thats a
good stable aspect for a relationship & if anything happens maybe we can
revert back-Oh I dont know the process of life sure is an ADVENTURE!!-dont
worry I'll figure something out-maybe this ant the right place for it but
it makes me order thought a little more and perhaps you guys can give me
some perspective?


Well that was the personal bit-heres the next is a reply to the Star Wars
stuff!!


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Tue Sep 19 16:26:16 1995
To: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>
Subject: Star Wars-Joseph Cambell(the myth man)!!
From: tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Tama.Neill)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 16:26:16 +1200

Hello onwards fellow Bravehearts!!

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

>Here we go.  Is the Star Wars Trilogy a story about the nature of
>our soul?  Or is it an allegory about the Internet?  (joke)-Nah I just
>really like Star Wars& am a fan!!
>Seriously, I have been thinking about a fundamental question:
>
>Is the universe/cosmos/God  basically good.  Is evil just  human
>error, which we can correct by voting for the Alliance or
>whatever?  Aha? are you gonna vote for Alliance? I'm not sure yrt whom I'm
>gonna vote for-thats the least of my worries-but I wont vote National!!
>
>Jung called the theory _privatio boni_ absence of good?  ie evil
>is the only absence of good, and has no real substance.  He was
>against it.  Utterly opposed to it.  Evil exists, and we'd better
>know it or it will get us.
>
>Now:  where does Darth Vader fit into that?
>
>My hunch is that Yoda?  has been reading too much "Course in
>Miracles"-huh waht is that-some kinda txt you show disdain for?

Aha yes I have something there for you!! Have you heard of a guy called
Joseph Campbell-he wrote the hero with 1000 faces and is really into
mythology nad other fasinating aspects of...(he died in 1987 but they did
have a sewries of six interviews with him-I have 4 on tape-they rae filmed
on Sky Walker Ranch-which is George Lucas's!! Who he is a good friend of-He
inspired parts and aspects of the Star Wars trilogy-(soon to be another
three)...well I roughly wrote down what he said about Star Wars and I'll
roughly retell you:

  Star wars forfills the need for spiritual adventure& heroism-It does the
cycle well-I'ts not just simple morality-the movie has to deal with the
powerers of life & their inflexions through the action.Great aspect of it
is the wonderful adventure into space-for the narrator can convey this new
place to us for we have exsplored the Earth and there is no where for our
imagination to go off and fight wars with powers...

  Recognise that it is mythical-it uses standard mythical figures-The ol
man as the advisor (Ben-Obi Wan Konobi)-who is especially similar to the
Japenese Sword Master-the set up with putting the helmet on luke nad
letting him run on instinct is very Japenese(fighting the flying practice
droid...

  There is the climatic moment in the film where Luke is told to let
go-feel the force-audience break out into elation and applause....The
language is talking to young people well....A Serendipdous(sanscript-The
Isle of Silk) adventure-where the adventurer is ready for the
adventure...Another character type is Solo-the reluctant hero-who is
interested in Material goals but has the humanity to be compassionate &
help out...

  Another interseting place is the canteen thee jump off point into sapce
where all the people and Aliens have the knowlege of the place...In the
trash disposer is like Jonah & the whale & in pschological terms water
represents the unconcious & the whale represents a persomification of all
that is strong dynamic and fierce about it & the Hero goes through the
process of being swollowed by the whale-either dieing escapeing and falling
to the depth of the Abyss or escapeing and swimming to the top- has to be
controlled by consciosness...

  The Brain is a secondary organ of the total human being & must not put
itslef in control it must sunmit and serve the humanity of the body...Darth
Vader is Put in control of his mind he has gone over to the intellectual
side-he is living in terms of system not humanity-there is the threat that
operates in our society in realtion to the system-eat you up and relieve
hummanity-or use system for own purposes-dont change system but live in
system as human being-not going over but resisting...Imagination...

  People who dont listen to the demands of their own heart & life & who
insist on certain program crack up!!-Go off center-world full of people who
dont listen to themselves...Life of an maverick-creative spiritual rangaes
on it own out beyond the boundaries-hero lurks in each of us-evokes
character & find out more as you go on-put yourself in situationsto evoke
your higher nature not your lower!!

Well it was a lot more focussed than that but I messly jotted that stuff
down-so I could give you some...

I will reply to some off that community stuff-it qas interesting-but right
now I have used time have to to a lecture-I get to see Claire!!

+  I have not forgotten you STEVE thanx for the Jung stuff I'm not sure if
I'm ready for him yet-but I'm sure a coulpe of doses will slowly filter
into me-But I dont know-what he says is pretty complex ya really have to
think about it-its not calrity-so it did not appeal to me-I'll have another
look later!!
(Thanx for the support on Yoda!! & Star Wars)

Bye everyone-hear from YOU's!!



                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)





From hoon@apk.net Wed Sep 20 01:53:54 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: 'THE'COMMUNITY=MYTH [RANT!!] [coutesy Greg Ritter]
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 09:53:54 -0400


reredada: 'THE'COMMUNITY=MYTH [RANT!!] [coutesy Greg Ritter]

>GET OVER IT, PEOPLE!!

Zeus has spoken!

>IT'S NOT

--again...  

>liberal

Dumbed-down and fast becoming the most useless word in the entire (American) English language

>The fact is, boys and girls, You don't HAVE to LIKE EVERYBODY
-c-
>Who Tote The Community Flag, but signing on to the list doesn't
>make you a member of that community.  Even *participating*
>doesn't make you a member of the community. What DOES make you a
>member of the community?  Just like anywhere else--you have to be
>accepted by the current members.

acceptance vs "being liked" hmmm...?

>That's the way interpersonal relationships work, folks.

a rather shallow view of relationship...yes?

>THE LIST IS NOT THE COMMUNITY AND THE COMMUNITY IS NOT THE LIST.
>Here, let me be even more repetitive than I always am:  THE LIST
>IS NOT THE COMMUNITY AND THE COMMUNITY IS NOT THE LIST.
-c-
>A SINGLE FC COMMUNITY IS A MYTH.

MYTH as pejorative: not-to-be-believed. 

-c-
>friends are big and strong enough you go beat the tar out of the
>old neighborhood gang and then you get to rule the 'hood.

the writer's hidden agenda?

-c-
>self-organizing systems in effect.  They just haven't built their
>numbers up enough to kick the butts of those liberal-academic-weenie-bullies.

Does he really mean *quantity* kicks butt versus *quality* (of arguement)?

>pretend like it's this single community, but it's really a bunch of different >neighborhoods butting up against each other. 

OTH one person's *really* may be the other's *pretend*.

>Greg Ritter
>eng3ghr@hibbs.vcu.edu

The writer's intention is to edify the communities/non-communities as to the hard-nosed framework of the list. Would seem unnecessary. 

How different Psyber-L is in my experience!

At 10:20 AM 9/18/95, Walter Logeman wrote:
>This message is the second  of two by Greg Ritter  to future
>culture that I am posting with his permission.  He is not a
>member of this list .   I will also post up my reply to this post
>as it appeared in Future culture.
>
>Dylan said:
-c-
>>We are a community. We need to become as close to a
>>real community that we can. 

-c-

Unconscious idealism is just the stuff to fuel the ol' participation mystique. As the martian said: take me to your leader.
 
>
>But for a way more academic answer:

Zeus as weenie?
>
>I was reading an essay recently called "Arts of the Contact
>Zone," by Mary Louise Pratt, and she references Benedict
>Anderson's book _Imaginary Communities_.  

(Hmmm...have to dig into these.)

I'm reminded of three fruitful, among many, ways of looking at communication.
One is Deborah Tannen's exegis of *selective hearing*. Two is the technical exploration of *arguement* and *fallacy* and *in-built bias*. Three is Edward Hall's study of cultural differences. I mention these frameworks because the regress may be observed to be: community->institutions->web of relationships->the individual->individual psychology->conscious behavior->unconscious behavior-> interpretation of all of the above->and/or empirical observations->and/or hypothesis testing->(etc.) 

All of the above resting on a foundations of individual and collective pscyhic nature(s). Messy and rich in *difference*.

-c-

Finally the writer delves into something on the order of a sophisticated view, which will inspire (my) consideration at a later point.

Walter: excellent post. I'm hoping your reply distills a meaty thread or two or three.

I don't have any trouble with the word community, in general. As for the RL-CL (cyber-life) distinction...somebody will have to explain it to me. CL is a subset of RL so far for me, and no less real. 

I don't feel discussing why people want to convert each other to their views is very valuable subject matter. (Not that that's been suggested here; although this *why* is the implied mystery which evidently deserved edification by Greg.) The writer laid down the *law* instead of weighing the different views.

If our listening filters threw out the non-logical, and if all arguements died at the first fallacy. and if we could recognize in-built cultural biases, we'd still have to deal with the vagaries of first principals...which may have, as one of their qualities, an archetypal nature, certainly are of the stuff of human nature, and will always be fuzzy-subjective and a matter for disputation and interpretation.

Yet, what is causing the breakdown of families, institutions, communities? Are individuals breaking down? Is the general debasement of energy the prelude to a re-organization of community on a higher level of -write your goal for community in <here>- ?

Sharing ideas is hard. Sharing. We find often fashioning a dialectic is easier. I have had a few friends (defined by mutual respect and interdependence) with whom dialogues LEAPT. Driven by intuition, such dialogues were like taking a journey without a destination. The heuristic was open ended...we made the rules up as we journeyed. Threw out the ones which held us up. But, never had to throw out self-respect or self-trust. Resolution: out-of-the-question.

What would an enlightened community be like...anywhere? Full of wisdom? Where has wisdom and it's humbling nature gone to? 

So much childish logos energy is what I think Greg's post feels like. As if interdependence (aha! community IMHO) is funded by something as infantile as acceptance or agreement. 

Seng-Ts'an, the 3rd Chinese patriarch said: There is no need to seek Truth; only stop having views... The ultimate truth about both extremes is that they are One Emptiness...

Rumi, r.a., put it this way: What is important is not essential; What is essential is not important.

If all a community can do is argue about importance, an infantile basis for community I suggest, then what of essence? What of wisdom? 

Well, the mighty wind from Cleveland has blown again. (Idle time combined with an unfulfilling job.) Sorry if it seems if I don't leave much breathing room...I feel as if I don't sometimes. Alas, I'm a kid in an intellectual candy shop it would seem.

Psyber-L's work provokes me deeply. Which feels great BTW. Did I say work? :) 


The only thing left to do is to do!

(ty Abdullah Ibrahim)





From hoon@apk.net Wed Sep 20 05:22:08 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re2: Imaginary Communities & Contact Zones [courtesy greg Ritter]
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 13:22:08 -0400


At 10:20 AM 9/18/95, Walter Logeman wrote:
>This message is the second  of two by Greg Ritter
-c-
>I was reading an essay recently called "Arts of the Contact
>Zone," by Mary Louise Pratt, and she references Benedict
>Anderson's book _Imaginary Communities_.  Anderson argues most
>human communities exist as imaginary entities in which people
>"will never know most of their fellow-members, meet them or even
>hear of them, yet in the mind of each lives the image of their
>communion....Communities are distinguished by...the style in
>which they are imagined."  Pratt points out that the "imaginary
>community" is basically utopian in nature, "embodying values like
>equality, fraternity, liberty, which the societies often profess
>but systematically fail to realize."  Pratt's essay addresses
>"contact zones"--points where cultures/groups meet or clash,
>"often in the context of asymmetrical relations of power" and
>deals with the kinds of artistic endeavors that arise out of
>those zones.
>
>Several points:
>
>1. I think the Net is the epitome of an "imaginary community."
>Whereas I think Anderson was referring to abstract ideas of
>national identity, it seems to me that the idea of community that
>gets batted around the Internet (and especially FC) is about 99%
>imaginary because, with a few exceptions, most of us have never
>layed eyes on the other and do not exist as a community *in real
>life*.  And, no matter how much we sometimes think otherwise, we
>all have to live in the real world first and the virtual world
>second.
>
Astonishingly literal. Not much eros here. Expectedly, like *myth* did earlier, *imaginary* pops up here as a pejorative meaning *not real* or, not *RL* ! ;)
Maybe *virtual* is quickly being converted into as meaningless a word as liberal.

But, *in the world* is a misnomer. We can't easily take ourselves out of whichever world, be it real or virtual, I suggest not very humbly.

This is a catagory fallacy of course. Virtual means -like reality- but not the reality itself. However, 'virtual' itself is real. This may seem like an obvious and trivial point but the catagory confusion here is crucial if one is going to reason any extension of RL catagories into our real/virtual community here in cyberland.

It's also obvious that whatever you want to call what we do when we communicate with each other through Psyber-L, it is real communication and as such, that it isn't face-to-face is a limitation but doesn't automatically, probably could not in fact, convert our experience into a secondary, let alone imaginary variant on reality.

We don't worry about these distinctions when we write a letter or talk to a stranger over the phone. I wonder why doing similar things over a computer is so loaded with these problems of distinction?

>2. Dylan, bless his young heart, has already shown himself to be
>pursuing utopian ideals, so it doesn't surprise me that he is a
>proponent of this "imaginary [Net] community"
>
-c-

>The list and the "FC community" are not one and the same, 
-c-
>"a specific place this community should be at" is a utopian
>enterprise that will fail to meet the goals it professes because,
>as an "imaginary community," it is not really inclusive.
>(Though, I would certainly agree that it is more inclusive than
>some others.)

Here is the fallacy of projection (not psychological but logical): Pratt evidently says imaginary community is not inclusive then, taken as a predicate,
the same reasoning is used to theorize about whether the *should* will realize its *at*. :)  The predicate may be verifiable or even commensensically true (good enough for me, BTW) but it's a big leap to say Dylan's desire about community is a premise that will fail. I haven't read Pratt however; maybe her sociological theories establish a solid basis for this leap of Greg's. 

Naturally, communities go from where they are at to a different *at*; it would appear the *shoulds* involved may or may not play a big role. I like surrendering to the *at* and riding it on to the next one. 

I go at it this way because this echoes the defective thinking spoken of when we dialogued earlier about the shadow of the hyper-rational organization. The word imaginary is used in Greg's post without imagination...which is why I'm struck by how seemingly sensible his reasoning is despite it falling short both on logos and eros grounds. Poor thinking, not much feeling...misses the point of why anybody might be interested in establishing community, utopian or otherwise.
>
>4. I've been thinking about this for several days because I'm
>reading the Pratt essay with some of my freshman composition
>classes (they liked Freire better!).  Interesting synchronicity

? rather than coincidence ? Oh well.

parsed brutally:

>contact zone
>asymmetrical relationships of power
>technical-educated elite

not I!

>power-wise

different from wise about power.

I have no idea what Greg is talking about here. I'll have to read Pratt.

>It's interesting to see a total Net novice (i.e. someone
>not privy to the technical knowledge) attempt to interact with
>someone whose Net-power is asymmetrical (i.e. is Net-proficient).
>You *really* see the exclusive power of the Net in those
>instances.

Privy to technical knowledge as opposed to FTFI? ;^}

>
>Pratt discusses how the European bourgeoisies used writing and
>literacy to cement the supremacy of their imagined community.
>in those contact zone situations between the Net-novice and 
>the Net-proficient I see the hyperliteracy of the Net-proficient 
>being used to cement the heirarchical power of the Net-proficient.

Too bad the printing press came along. BDM by the bourgeosis to let those darn machines get going. Same here: if the net elite want to protect their power base they'd be smart to: not be helpful, not to make client software and documentation easy to download, not to bring us newbies along as-it-were.

Historical example is clear: if you want to protect your power: (1) don't educate people, (2) don't let them have a legislative outlet, (3) make certain subjects spoken about in public illegal. etc.

My own experience is that some of the cyber-geeks and technocrats strike me as being in-their-own insular little world, kind of like some auto mechanics and some hi-fi salespeople, for example. Not much help to me! But if they hold the keys to some kingdom I don't want them. My encounters with such types gives me a sense of people stuck in the past, safe in their knowledge, protective of it too.

I hate to say it...but the internet isn't rocket science. With AT&T, Microsoft, the TV networks, and Hollywood all jockeying to grab the tiger by the tail, the days of a technocratic elite, asynchronous, powerful, or otherwise are numbered.
>
-c-
>manifesto, Andy describes watching a Net-novice friend of his
>attempt to relate to an obviously more Net-proficient individual
>on IRC, a Net-proficient individual who abused the Net-novice.

IRC...90% imagination going on there. As in imaginative sexuality. Anyway, most net proficient people may be akin to emperor's without clothing. And I don't mean AMCM "I'm at my computer naked". 

Still, the ruler says to novice/employee: "first rule is: you have to agree that I know what I'm doing". 
>
>5. Finally, let me get around to an answer to Dylan's original
>questions about what direction we should take the "community."
>Pratt argues that the contact zone can be a space to break down
>the marginalization of the non-dominant literacy/culture.  The
>dominant power structures avoid the contact zone because it
>threatens the heirarchy that maintains their imaginary
>community's dominance; in a contact zone the dominant
>literacy/culture is challenged by the clash with the Other.

To adjust Pogo: I have met the Other and he is us. Not out there: but in *here*.

>
>Therefore, my answer to Dylan is that we should NOT try to come
>together more as a community; I see that as solidifying our
>separation as a technical/virtual elite from other less-elite
>"cultures".  Instead what I propose is that we, Net-society, and
>RL-society would be better served if hyperliterate, Net
>"communities" actively tried to place themselves in contact zones
>with the non-hyperliterate.  We would be better served by seeking
>out ways to involve the non-hyperliterate and promote the clash,
>critique, transculturation, autoethnography, and cultural
>mediation (Pratt's terms) that serve to break apart the hegemony
>of the imaginary community.

Hegemony? where? This is close to jabber. Let the hyperliterate isolate themselves if they wish. Millions are jumping on the net, and with it, quantity accounts for something. 

How do you make your work here an effective tool for social transformation? If that's what you want to do. That's -my- desire.

-c-
>declaring my copyright of these ideas and threatening nasty
>bodily harm and legal nightmares for any of you other loopy
>academic types out there who even conceive of using any of these
>ideas without giving me a whole hell of a lot of credit.  (How's
>that for academic paranoia?!?  I guess I could have just said
>Copyright 1995 by Greg Ritter, but this way was more fun!)

Greg wants it both ways: break down the barriers and raise them up at the same time. We'll remember the days of copyright fondly...or won't remember them at all. 

An idea's ownership is a dubious idea. All my ideas are stolen anyway.
>
phew. I'd post these comments to FUTUREC, but I don't like getting flamed! 

I feel there are many provocative ideas here, albeit they've been brought up indirectly, but that in taking the psychological low road, :) we've, in our group, sorted out some frameworks for connecting them with real people and their real thoughts and feelings...pats on the back to all.

Best and better,


--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun
At last
   the email has come!
Soo the ripe persimmons will fall

(apologies to Santoka Taneda)





From hoon@apk.net Wed Sep 20 05:22:08 1995
To: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>,
        Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re2: Imaginary Communities & Contact Zones [courtesy greg Ritter]
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 13:22:08 -0400

At 10:20 AM 9/18/95, Walter Logeman wrote:
>This message is the second  of two by Greg Ritter
-c-
>I was reading an essay recently called "Arts of the Contact
>Zone," by Mary Louise Pratt, and she references Benedict
>Anderson's book _Imaginary Communities_.  Anderson argues most
>human communities exist as imaginary entities in which people
>"will never know most of their fellow-members, meet them or even
>hear of them, yet in the mind of each lives the image of their
>communion....Communities are distinguished by...the style in
>which they are imagined."  Pratt points out that the "imaginary
>community" is basically utopian in nature, "embodying values like
>equality, fraternity, liberty, which the societies often profess
>but systematically fail to realize."  Pratt's essay addresses
>"contact zones"--points where cultures/groups meet or clash,
>"often in the context of asymmetrical relations of power" and
>deals with the kinds of artistic endeavors that arise out of
>those zones.
>
>Several points:
>
>1. I think the Net is the epitome of an "imaginary community."
>Whereas I think Anderson was referring to abstract ideas of
>national identity, it seems to me that the idea of community that
>gets batted around the Internet (and especially FC) is about 99%
>imaginary because, with a few exceptions, most of us have never
>layed eyes on the other and do not exist as a community *in real
>life*.  And, no matter how much we sometimes think otherwise, we
>all have to live in the real world first and the virtual world
>second.
>
Astonishingly literal. Not much eros here. Expectedly, like *myth* did earlier, *imaginary* pops up here as a pejorative meaning *not real* or, not *RL* ! ;)
Maybe *virtual* is quickly being converted into as meaningless a word as liberal.

But, *in the world* is a misnomer. We can't easily take ourselves out of whichever world, be it real or virtual, I suggest not very humbly.

This is a catagory fallacy of course. Virtual means -like reality- but not the reality itself. However, 'virtual' itself is real. This may seem like an obvious and trivial point but the catagory confusion here is crucial if one is going to reason any extension of RL catagories into our real/virtual community here in cyberland.

It's also obvious that whatever you want to call what we do when we communicate with each other through Psyber-L, it is real communication and as such, that it isn't face-to-face is a limitation but doesn't automatically, probably could not in fact, convert our experience into a secondary, let alone imaginary variant on reality.

We don't worry about these distinctions when we write a letter or talk to a stranger over the phone. I wonder why doing similar things over a computer is so loaded with these problems of distinction?

>2. Dylan, bless his young heart, has already shown himself to be
>pursuing utopian ideals, so it doesn't surprise me that he is a
>proponent of this "imaginary [Net] community"
>
-c-

>The list and the "FC community" are not one and the same, 
-c-
>"a specific place this community should be at" is a utopian
>enterprise that will fail to meet the goals it professes because,
>as an "imaginary community," it is not really inclusive.
>(Though, I would certainly agree that it is more inclusive than
>some others.)

Here is the fallacy of projection (not psychological but logical): Pratt evidently says imaginary community is not inclusive then, taken as a predicate,
the same reasoning is used to theorize about whether the *should* will realize its *at*. :)  The predicate may be verifiable or even commensensically true (good enough for me, BTW) but it's a big leap to say Dylan's desire about community is a premise that will fail. I haven't read Pratt however; maybe her sociological theories establish a solid basis for this leap of Greg's. 

Naturally, communities go from where they are at to a different *at*; it would appear the *shoulds* involved may or may not play a big role. I like surrendering to the *at* and riding it on to the next one. 

I go at it this way because this echoes the defective thinking spoken of when we dialogued earlier about the shadow of the hyper-rational organization. The word imaginary is used in Greg's post without imagination...which is why I'm struck by how seemingly sensible his reasoning is despite it falling short both on logos and eros grounds. Poor thinking, not much feeling...misses the point of why anybody might be interested in establishing community, utopian or otherwise.
>
>4. I've been thinking about this for several days because I'm
>reading the Pratt essay with some of my freshman composition
>classes (they liked Freire better!).  Interesting synchronicity

? rather than coincidence ? Oh well.

parsed brutally:

>contact zone
>asymmetrical relationships of power
>technical-educated elite

not I!

>power-wise

different from wise about power.

I have no idea what Greg is talking about here. I'll have to read Pratt.

>It's interesting to see a total Net novice (i.e. someone
>not privy to the technical knowledge) attempt to interact with
>someone whose Net-power is asymmetrical (i.e. is Net-proficient).
>You *really* see the exclusive power of the Net in those
>instances.

Privy to technical knowledge as opposed to FTFI? ;^}

>
>Pratt discusses how the European bourgeoisies used writing and
>literacy to cement the supremacy of their imagined community.
>in those contact zone situations between the Net-novice and 
>the Net-proficient I see the hyperliteracy of the Net-proficient 
>being used to cement the heirarchical power of the Net-proficient.

Too bad the printing press came along. BDM by the bourgeosis to let those darn machines get going. Same here: if the net elite want to protect their power base they'd be smart to: not be helpful, not to make client software and documentation easy to download, not to bring us newbies along as-it-were.

Historical example is clear: if you want to protect your power: (1) don't educate people, (2) don't let them have a legislative outlet, (3) make certain subjects spoken about in public illegal. etc.

My own experience is that some of the cyber-geeks and technocrats strike me as being in-their-own insular little world, kind of like some auto mechanics and some hi-fi salespeople, for example. Not much help to me! But if they hold the keys to some kingdom I don't want them. My encounters with such types gives me a sense of people stuck in the past, safe in their knowledge, protective of it too.

I hate to say it...but the internet isn't rocket science. With AT&T, Microsoft, the TV networks, and Hollywood all jockeying to grab the tiger by the tail, the days of a technocratic elite, asynchronous, powerful, or otherwise are numbered.
>
-c-
>manifesto, Andy describes watching a Net-novice friend of his
>attempt to relate to an obviously more Net-proficient individual
>on IRC, a Net-proficient individual who abused the Net-novice.

IRC...90% imagination going on there. As in imaginative sexuality. Anyway, most net proficient people may be akin to emperor's without clothing. And I don't mean AMCM "I'm at my computer naked". 

Still, the ruler says to novice/employee: "first rule is: you have to agree that I know what I'm doing". 
>
>5. Finally, let me get around to an answer to Dylan's original
>questions about what direction we should take the "community."
>Pratt argues that the contact zone can be a space to break down
>the marginalization of the non-dominant literacy/culture.  The
>dominant power structures avoid the contact zone because it
>threatens the heirarchy that maintains their imaginary
>community's dominance; in a contact zone the dominant
>literacy/culture is challenged by the clash with the Other.

To adjust Pogo: I have met the Other and he is us. Not out there: but in *here*.

>
>Therefore, my answer to Dylan is that we should NOT try to come
>together more as a community; I see that as solidifying our
>separation as a technical/virtual elite from other less-elite
>"cultures".  Instead what I propose is that we, Net-society, and
>RL-society would be better served if hyperliterate, Net
>"communities" actively tried to place themselves in contact zones
>with the non-hyperliterate.  We would be better served by seeking
>out ways to involve the non-hyperliterate and promote the clash,
>critique, transculturation, autoethnography, and cultural
>mediation (Pratt's terms) that serve to break apart the hegemony
>of the imaginary community.

Hegemony? where? This is close to jabber. Let the hyperliterate isolate themselves if they wish. Millions are jumping on the net, and with it, quantity accounts for something. 

How do you make your work here an effective tool for social transformation? If that's what you want to do. That's -my- desire.

-c-
>declaring my copyright of these ideas and threatening nasty
>bodily harm and legal nightmares for any of you other loopy
>academic types out there who even conceive of using any of these
>ideas without giving me a whole hell of a lot of credit.  (How's
>that for academic paranoia?!?  I guess I could have just said
>Copyright 1995 by Greg Ritter, but this way was more fun!)

Greg wants it both ways: break down the barriers and raise them up at the same time. We'll remember the days of copyright fondly...or won't remember them at all. 

An idea's ownership is a dubious idea. All my ideas are stolen anyway.
>
phew. I'd post these comments to FUTUREC, but I don't like getting flamed! 

I feel there are many provocative ideas here, albeit they've been brought up indirectly, but that in taking the psychological low road, :) we've, in our group, sorted out some frameworks for connecting them with real people and their real thoughts and feelings...pats on the back to all.

Best and better,


--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun
At last
   the email has come!
Soo the ripe persimmons will fall

(apologies to Santoka Taneda)





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Wed Sep 20 17:15:46 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: 'THE'COMMUNITY=MYTH [RANT!!] [coutesy Greg Ritter]
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 18:15:46 +1300 (NDT)



I thought that this thread was so interesting that I wanted to 
contribute. First off, I'll try to do something like that intuitive 
parsing device mechanism. not quite the same as before, but well here 
goes...
I haven't captured *the* essence, it was just a thing to help me grasp 
your wisdom... so forgive me for changing the  words...
 


> writer's intent was a hard-nosed framework 
> How different Psyber-L

> foundations messy and rich in *difference*.
> Cyber-Life a subset of RL 

> If arguements died at fallacy
> we'd still have vagaries of first principles...
> one of their qualities;  an archetypal nature.
>                         stuff of human nature
>                          fuzzy-subjective 
>                          disputation and interpretation.
 
> Sharing ideas is hard.
> Sharing.
> fashioning a dialectic is easier. 

> friends
> made the rules up
> threw out the ones which held us up.
> Resolution: out-of-the-question.
 
> enlightened community?
> wisdom? 
> humbling nature?

> interdependence 
  (not)
> funded by acceptance (or) agreement
 
> "There is no need to seek Truth; only stop having views..."

> "What is important is not essential; What is essential is not important."
 
> importance, an infantile basis
> what of essence?
> What of wisdom? 
 
> The only thing left to do is to do!

the only thing left is my response in an explicatory form. 
How can you talk of "Wisdom" without taking on its shadow of "truth". 
On the other hand, "wisdom" maybe, without a capital W, is something that I 
can see fitting in with your spin. Asort of practical nature of argument; 
an understanding of diversity combined with the need for a hint of 
reality to enter the picture at the occassional point.
The same goes for "Essence" (not to accuse you of something that you 
didn't do, but the point still is relevant I think). Essence to me 
implies a sort of reductionism, sometimes valid, but sometimes dangerous. 
Certainly not something to be pursued in and of itself. What I think is 
that "agreement" in its widest possible sense is the whole essence of 
community... or perhaps the creation of a system of conflict, but not a 
conflict that can continue, as a *community* grows it begins to 
reduce the disagreement. Maybe like it is hard to hold to different ideas 
in your head at the same time, so is the nature of community. Its not 
that your thoughts head in one particular direction (ie truth), but rather 
that you have only one thought at a time. Like you and your friends, I 
have had the same experience, but of course so important to this process, 
at least for me was the need to say "yes" to accept the others 
contribution. To bend my mind as much as possible to the understanding or 
at least the reinterpretation/parsing of what they say to find 
something I agree with, and also at the same time to return immediately 
the (processed) part of their words I find that I cannot understand/ 
agree with. OK we all know that this is a complicated thing, but 
what I am thinking is that its a *process* that seems bent on 
creating "agreement" even though it will (perhaps) never find "the 
truth" or in practice "Resolution". Perhaps in this analogy, a single 
consciousness is the "ultimate" community in the sense that it is 
congenitally incapable of thinking more than one thing at a time. Of 
course, you could say that the sort of facist commmunity that held 
strictly to one view at a time would hardly be a community at all, and I 
guess I would have to agree with you there, but nevertheless I think 
*community* is all about distilling an ever growing shared set of 
concepts and ideals in which the "disagreements" of the past have found a 
home that can be sheltered together without conflict. 
this is an information theorising way to look at it, and i feel somehow 
that it misses much of the real deal with community (this is my wisdom 
with a small w) but well there it is, voila!


see you all in the land of small grey plastic....
Miles





From hoon@apk.net Thu Sep 21 00:53:12 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: re (miles) THE COMMUNITY MYTH
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:53:12 -0400


>  
>  Date:    Wed, 20 Sep 1995 18:15:46 +1300 (NDT)
>  From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz> Sender:
>  Subject: 'THE'COMMUNITY=MYTH
>  [RANT!!] [coutesy Greg Ritter] 
>  
>  I thought that this thread was so interesting that I wanted
>  to contribute. First off, I'll try to do something like that
>  intuitive parsing device mechanism. not quite the same as
>  before, but well here goes...
>  I haven't captured *the* essence, it was just a thing to
>  help me grasp your wisdom... so forgive me for changing the
>  words...  
>  
-c-
>  >interdependence
>  (not)
>  >funded by acceptance (or) agreement
-c- 
>  >importance, an infantile basis
>  >what of essence?
>  >What of wisdom
-c-

I appreciate very much your parsing and will sit with it and work with it. Thanks!
>  
-c-
>  The same goes for "Essence" (not to accuse you of something
>  that you didn't do, but the point still is relevant I
>  think). Essence to me implies a sort of reductionism,
>  sometimes valid, but sometimes dangerous. Certainly not
>  something to be pursued in and of itself. What I think is
>  that "agreement" in its widest possible sense is the whole
>  essence of community... or perhaps the creation of a system
>  of conflict, but not a conflict that can continue, as a
>  *community* grows it begins to reduce the disagreement.
>  Maybe like it is hard to hold to different ideas in your
>  head at the same time, so is the nature of community. Its
>  not that your thoughts head in one particular direction (ie
>  truth), but rather that you have only one thought at a time.
-c-
>  that this is a complicated thing, but what I am thinking is
>  that its a *process* that seems bent on creating "agreement"
>  even though it will (perhaps) never find "the truth" or in
>  practice "Resolution". Perhaps in this analogy, a single
>  consciousness is the "ultimate" community in the sense that

Could you elaborate? A single individual consciousness?
-c-
>  agree with you there, but nevertheless I think *community*
>  is all about distilling an ever growing shared set of
>  concepts and ideals in which the "disagreements" of the past
>  have found a home that can be sheltered together without
>  conflict. this is an information theorising way to look at
>  it, and i feel somehow that it misses much of the real deal
>  with community (this is my wisdom with a small w) but well
>  there it is, voila! 
>  

Quick response -er, I'll throttle myself to make it short too! 

As for essence...your point about reducing is subtle. I included the Rumi, r.a., quote because it is for me so heavy. Is there a (mystic) truth that transcends community, maybe even our own individual humanity? What would an unmediated by- our-*views* apprehension of reality be like? Essence? Anyway, one can hang out in all the spiritual cyber-groups to listen to all the disputation concerning that subject!

I don't have as part of my own experience of community the experience of a community which has successfully made normative a set of principles (etc.), first or otherwise, which the entire community agrees upon. 

My limited experience of community includes my comprehending that a community apparently has a certain life-cycle, in which it is subject to decay over time...for various reasons. 

I don't have any direct experience with the Amish community, but it strikes me that it is an example of a community in which the normative framework of values and regulation requires that individuality be -for the most part- subsumed. It is a striking example because that particular community has been somewhat successful in insulating itself from the very modernism which it sees as a threat to its sustaining itself. However, the Amish are having increasing trouble travelling that path for obvious and other reasons.

Contrast that community with the common example of the cult for which the necessity of breaking down individuality is a primary tool for its defining "agreement(s)". 

Too: the military, organized religions, yogic paths, business organizations, etc...(generalize a tension between individual and institution; a much studied field within sociology, psychology, history, etc.)

Needless to say, the shadow hangs dark and heavy in these cases...individuality being a very hard thing to subsume in every case. The agrieved psyche/ individuality will rebel eventually, although not necessarily constructively, IMHO. (Same subject: the shadow side of the participation mystique.)

All of this touches directly on community-making and the unconscious, especially if the metaphor of our individuality being ma itself of a community of Gods/Goddesses is in some way a valid interpretion about human nature.

Well, for me this is short,  all of or you...thanks for your indulgence.

Best and better to all!

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

Only that which can destroy itself is truly alive.

C.G.Jung





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Sep 22 17:34:21 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Personal guff and answers?
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 05:34:21 GMT

Tama,

>   -Sure thing-we have together people-we have more coherent, happy
> relationships & if people can rely on themselves and be able to access
> their inner focus and vica versa be able to let down their walls and "Risk
> intimacy by telling people about...themselves.You thus become more
> vunerable to being abused and rejected,  embraced and accepted"-Sol Gordan
> (Flash Gordan) Although I think it's much easyier to let go and share
> intimacy in Siberia(a.k.a-cyberspace)-although the fruits are different
> than RL world.

Is that really Fash Gordon?  You certainly do open up here . . .
I think you open far more than most,  i guess it would be good if
people opened up in kind   . . .  I am not sure I can do that as
fully as you do here  . . .

>   -Lately I have been having a plutonic relationship with a friend Claire &
> I managed to pick up enough courage to ask for a friendly hug aven though I
> knew she found touching and intimacy difficult she said "Go on then"-I was
> running late for a movie.But WoW oh Wow just the small touch of snuggleing
> up to her aginst the wall for a couple of seconds, I kinda transcended
> myself-I forget about thinking-I just felt and I was being there-but I had
> to go.

I will say this:  It made me think of 'that' initial moment of
opening up as i have experienced them in my life -- yes,
transcendent moments.  Thanks for bringing that moment here.

On the question of intimacy in Psyberia, i think you are onto it
that the fruits are different!  For all that I think we can have
transcendent seconds here too . . . as well as the pain of
rejection or just silence through the modem.

All the best Tama,

walter


> 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From vqv4981@is2.NYU.EDU Sat Sep 23 04:58:07 1995
To: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Personal guff and answers?
From: Victoria  Vinogradova <vqv4981@is2.NYU.EDU>
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:58:07 -0400 (EDT)

 
In regard to opening up in Psyberia.. (Walter and Tama conversation)

It's funny, I thought about this the other day. It is easier to open to a 
"computer screen" than to a real person. You treat it like a journal, you 
let yourself go, and then you have your journal respond to you in amny 
different faces. I have a friend in Amsterdam, and not that I have 
difficulties opening up to people (on the contrary, they get scared of my 
"no-mask-ness"), I tell him things that I only tell to very-very close 
people around me. 

In regard, to the feeling of trancendence (misspelled?). First I 
experienced it when a person who I loved told me that for him it wasn't 
love. It felt like something opened under my feet, and I started falling 
into infinity. I think Death approaches you that way. 

And then I 
experienced a different kind, when I fell in love with another  person. I 
opened myself up to him, at first he was scared, but then dropped his 
defences, and oh.. my God! The conversation we had, and the words I said 
(not only about love, but about life) were so deep, that I couldn't 
believe they were my creations. It felt like I reached another level 
within myself, and the harmony that we created was something out of 
this world.   

So, I guess, opening up is worth it. But the more intensive it is, the 
more chance that you will get hurt. But hey, as they say in Russia, "He, who 
doesn't risk, doesn't drink champagne"

By



From vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu Sat Sep 23 04:58:07 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Personal guff and answers?
From: Victoria  Vinogradova <vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:58:07 -0400 (EDT)


 
In regard to opening up in Psyberia.. (Walter and Tama conversation)

It's funny, I thought about this the other day. It is easier to open to a 
"computer screen" than to a real person. You treat it like a journal, you 
let yourself go, and then you have your journal respond to you in amny 
different faces. I have a friend in Amsterdam, and not that I have 
difficulties opening up to people (on the contrary, they get scared of my 
"no-mask-ness"), I tell him things that I only tell to very-very close 
people around me. 

In regard, to the feeling of trancendence (misspelled?). First I 
experienced it when a person who I loved told me that for him it wasn't 
love. It felt like something opened under my feet, and I started falling 
into infinity. I think Death approaches you that way. 

And then I 
experienced a different kind, when I fell in love with another  person. I 
opened myself up to him, at first he was scared, but then dropped his 
defences, and oh.. my God! The conversation we had, and the words I said 
(not only about love, but about life) were so deep, that I couldn't 
believe they were my creations. It felt like I reached another level 
within myself, and the harmony that we created was something out of 
this world.   

So, I guess, opening up is worth it. But the more intensive it is, the 
more chance that you will get hurt. But hey, as they say in Russia, "He, who 
doesn't risk, doesn't drink champagne"

By



From ctpost@aol.com Sat Sep 23 06:02:27 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Greg Ritter's Rant
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:02:27 -0400


I first wondered why  Greg Ritter's rant was posted to this list. When not
ranting, Greg is usually pretty coherent. Opinionated, but coherent. The most
I could make of all the chest-thumping and the bullying tone in his post was
that he was mostly just whining about whiners. A waste of bandwidth.  

But I couldn't get over it myself and began wondering whether what Greg's
post represented was the Shadow of FC. Or put another way, the Shadow of
Community as understood by FC. From RL communities, we know that in many (if
not all) of them is an underside which evokes the counter-presence of some
kind of police force -- it shows up in the kind of metaphors Greg was using
-- gangs, turf battles, subtle and not so subtle forms of intimidation. Greg
seemed to be articulating that underside, only reversing it, as in "Forget
all your nice civilized notions about community; it's really all about who's
top dog around here, and if you don't like it, that's tough." 

I have noticed in FC, and once took the time to comment upon, the strategies
of dominance evident to me in what seems on the surface of FC to be
reasonable discourse among mutually supportive contributors. I
(diplomatically) wrote a long list of exactly the sorts of intimidation that
Greg has described. I don't recall that anyone picked up on it. I thought,
everyone's in denial about this, or I'm just stating the painfully obvious. I
didn't know which. I still don't know.

thx
Ron




From hoon@apk.net Sat Sep 23 06:30:50 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Personal guff and answers?
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:30:50 -0400


At 12:58 PM 9/22/95, Victoria  Vinogradova wrote:
> 
>In regard to opening up in Psyberia.. (Walter and Tama conversation)
>
>It's funny, I thought about this the other day. It is easier to open to a 
>"computer screen" than to a real person. You treat it like a journal, you 
>let yourself go, and then you have your journal respond to you in amny 
>different faces. I have a friend in Amsterdam, and not that I have 
>difficulties opening up to people (on the contrary, they get scared of my 
>"no-mask-ness"), I tell him things that I only tell to very-very close 
>people around me. 
>
>In regard, to the feeling of trancendence (misspelled?). First I 
>experienced it when a person who I loved told me that for him it wasn't 
>love. It felt like something opened under my feet, and I started falling 
>into infinity. I think Death approaches you that way. 
>
>And then I 
>experienced a different kind, when I fell in love with another  person. I 
>opened myself up to him, at first he was scared, but then dropped his 
>defences, and oh.. my God! The conversation we had, and the words I said 
>(not only about love, but about life) were so deep, that I couldn't 
>believe they were my creations. It felt like I reached another level 
>within myself, and the harmony that we created was something out of 
>this world.   
>
>So, I guess, opening up is worth it. But the more intensive it is, the 
>more chance that you will get hurt. But hey, as they say in Russia, "He, who 
>doesn't risk, doesn't drink champagne"
>
>By

Speaking for myself...it's easy to open up to a real person...as long as they're really real. :)

Yes: it's like sending your journal entries out. I probably do what people think but I post as if I don't! Then I sometimes get flamed -but not here so far- and I find myself caring again. Oh that tiny mind and big ego of mine!

But, people fall in love on the i-net. Ponder that. As Jungians have it: our personas are pretty good hooks for projection hanging.

Best to all.

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

Only that which can destroy itself is truly alive.

C.G.Jung





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Sep 23 13:44:50 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Greg Ritter's Rant
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 01:44:50 GMT


Ron,

> I first wondered why  Greg Ritter's rant was posted to this list. When not
> ranting, Greg is usually pretty coherent. Opinionated, but coherent. The most
> I could make of all the chest-thumping and the bullying tone in his post was
> that he was mostly just whining about whiners. A waste of bandwidth.  

The whining is a waste, as you say.  I posted it here with his
permission because I thought his points about sub groups and the
fallacy of a unified community were _interesting_  it stuck with
me and I wanted to share it here as we broached the discussion of
community here.  

For all that I won't do it again!  I can see that the life of a
list does not really allow cross posting like this.  E-mail is in
a _context_ and makes little sense outside of that.  

I notice that even an archive in one big file is nothing like the
living list.  We experience the _space_ between mail -- and then
the sudden floods, the silence and noise AND we can read it by
subject and author.   

> Greg
> seemed to be articulating that underside, only reversing it, as in "Forget
> all your nice civilized notions about community; it's really all about who's
> top dog around here, and if you don't like it, that's tough." 

I also read something else in there (I haven't checked so it may
be all projection -- who cares):  The list is not what it seems.
There are connections here that are invisible to the new people
-- also don't assume the prolific ones are necessarily part of
that web.  It was this quality of community that crystallised in
my mind -- and that was a _learning_ for me. 

> I have noticed in FC, and once took the time to comment upon, the strategies
> of dominance evident to me in what seems on the surface of FC to be
> reasonable discourse among mutually supportive contributors. I
> (diplomatically) wrote a long list of exactly the sorts of intimidation that
> Greg has described. I don't recall that anyone picked up on it. I thought,
> everyone's in denial about this, or I'm just stating the painfully obvious. I
> didn't know which. I still don't know.

I recall it, and I think it is all of the above and more -- (who
knows really!) -- I think I made some response, but I have
noticed that to be psychologically reflective on Future Culture
does not lead anywhere much.  A pity, as the 'culture' there can
do with a bit of that.  I guess it is part of the 'work' of
Psybernet to compare and contrast the life of lists and various
groups in cyberspace, and looking at our own list here is the
main part of that -- but not the only part.

Trust you are well,

Walter 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Sep 23 13:44:53 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Personal guff and answers?
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 01:44:53 GMT


Victoria,

Welcome to the list.  And opening up just as we speak of that.

> It's funny, I thought about this the other day. It is easier to open to a 
> "computer screen" than to a real person. 

Perhaps but I am not here with the screen.  I am in a place with
some familiar people, some acquaintances -- many unknown ones and
with, one, Victoria, who I immediately appreciate, and I notice I
_do_ care about the response.  No way as vulnerable as Tama with
Claire -- but it is an important moment for me when you arrive
here like this.  

> You treat it like a journal, you 
> let yourself go, and then you have your journal respond to you in many 
> different faces. I have a friend in Amsterdam, and not that I have 
> difficulties opening up to people (on the contrary, they get scared of my 
> "no-mask-ness"), I tell him things that I only tell to very-very close 
> people around me. 

I used to have a journal -- most of my life , but now this is it!
And I see that you know what I mean about us not being with our
screens here.  You have a friend  . . .  I presume one on the
otherside of the screen?

> In regard, to the feeling of trancendence (misspelled?). First I 
> experienced it when a person who I loved told me that for him it wasn't 
> love. It felt like something opened under my feet, and I started falling 
> into infinity. I think Death approaches you that way. 

I have the idea that he did!  That he couldn't handle it, that
there might have been other constraints but that the love was
real.  probably your "no-mask-ness" was too much -- excuse my
projecting away!

> as they say in Russia, "He, who 
> doesn't risk, doesn't drink champagne"

Are you from there?


Walter 


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Sat Sep 23 16:55:19 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Greg Ritter's rant
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:55:19 -0400



***
>  Date:    Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:02:27 -0400
>  From: ctpost@aol.com
>  Sender: Psybernet Mailing List
>  <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz> To: Multiple recipients of
>  list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz> Subject: Greg
>  Ritter's Rant
>
>
>  rant
>  pretty.
>  make
>  tone
>  whining waste
>
>
>  But I couldn't get over it myself and began wondering
>  whether what Greg's post represented was the Shadow of FC.
>  Or put another way, the Shadow of Community as understood by
>  FC. From RL communities, we know that in many (if not all)
>  of them is an underside which evokes the counter-presence of
>  some kind of police force -- it shows up in the kind of
>  metaphors Greg was using -- gangs, turf battles, subtle and
>  not so subtle forms of intimidation. Greg seemed to be
>  articulating that underside, only reversing it, as in
>  "Forget all your nice civilized notions about community;
>  it's really all about who's top dog around here, and if you
>  don't like it, that's tough."
>
>  I have noticed in FC, and once took the time to comment
>  upon, the strategies of dominance evident to me in what
>  seems on the surface of FC to be reasonable discourse among
>  mutually supportive contributors. I (diplomatically) wrote a
>  long list of exactly the sorts of intimidation that Greg has
>  described. I don't recall that anyone picked up on it. I
>  thought, everyone's in denial about this, or I'm just
>  stating the painfully obvious. I didn't know which. I still
>  don't know.
>
>  thx
>  Ron
***

After reading Walter's post of G.R.'s rant I subscribed to FUTUREC and
lurked for five days. Wild, *Drunken?* brawling, much thoughfulness...and
what seemed to be cyber cliques-in-conflict. And, my mailbox was totally
buried.

Shadow fer 'sure. "Where the will to power is paramount there can be no love."

Three ^not recommended^ questions for (consultants :^] and ) people on
their first date.

(1) What makes you afraid?

(2) What makes you sad?

(3) What kind of sex life do your parents have?


Any idea that agreement is the basis of community-organization-institutions
or a love relationship seems to me to miss the tacit aspects and cover up
what is most interesting about the web of relationship (to me) which is
difference, depth, and, as Rilke put it, the *difficulty of love*...of
being, by definition, isolated from each other.

Many of the threads seem to come together around this point from our
frustrations at work to T.N.'s energy breaking out of convention, to the
taste of the underside, etc.

I feel that the logos (or any) shadow has a double aspect (and is four
sided in-total): GR's rant is the authoritarian idealist raging against the
normative idealist. Survival of the fittest versus survival of the
pre-eminent. The (doubling) extension would then be the fittest's fear of
not being pre-eminent, and the pre-eminent's (idealist's) fear of not being
fit...Four sides! FWIW

(How many business owners have I observed run their businesses into the
ground because they didn't realize how unfit their thinking was made by
their assumption of pre-eminence. Many. And totally unable to confront
their fears, let alone their sadness or their parents' sex lives.:^} )

It's too simple to me to draw the lines in two dimensions: one side versus
the other...the basic expression of logos is *you're wrong, I'm right*. Or,
as symbolized by the cutting/dividing sword. WL: your dream comes up here
-chairs...facing which way?

Again and again I notice the shadow of reason, as I've suggested
previously, undercuts so-called rationality by it's very lack of feeling
and eros.

Jung called this *animus*, and he stuck it to women, but my experience is
that men habitually raise animus/animosity to great heights of inept fuzzy
thinking, and then demand the community's lock-step agreement, or lacking
that, adherence. (I know I have!)

Perhaps Jung thought too two-dimensionally sometimes, missing depth^^.

^^Which is why it's easy to see that both contrasexual psychic figures
exist in their measure in both women and men.

I can't speak for the Goddess, but I hope she'll put in wise words right
about...now.

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

It is well known that the most radical revolutionary
will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Hannah Arendt





From jgarneau@igs.net Sun Sep 24 01:21:53 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: re (miles) THE COMMUNITY MYTH
From: Jean Garneau <jgarneau@igs.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:21:53 -0400


Distraction and inexperience helping, I posted the following to AION, while
it should have gone to the PSYBER group.  Apologies from and to the
befuddled...

>
>To:AION@link.equinox.gen.nz
>From:jgarneau@igs.net (Jean Garneau)
>Subject:Re: re (miles) THE COMMUNITY MYTH
>
>Steve wrote:
>
>>My limited experience of community includes my comprehending that a
>>community apparently has a certain life-cycle, in which it is subject to
>>decay over time...for various reasons.
>
>A community is a system, be it inclusive or exclusive, and all systems are
>subject to the laws of change, to wear and decay.  Risky as most
>scientific analogies are, the applicable one here is that of the law of
>entropy. My simple misunderstanding of this--I'm not/not a scientist--is
>that loss of energy is a necessary function of any system.  Eventually,
>this loss, manifested in wear and tear and sundry glitches, results in the
>"temperature" of the system in question (measured in degrees Kelvin)
>tending to zero.  At that point, there can be no loss; the necessary
>function of energy loss cannot be met and, therefore, the system no longer
>works.  A fascinating question in corollary to this is: what is the ideal
>rate of loss? Or, can a system sufficiently closed to prevent energy loss
>produce useful work? What about closed communities, then... Hey, this
>could be fun.
>
>A community with ego is a club; the one with shadow is a mob; the one with
>persona...a bordello (the client and the server putting on their
>archetypal masks); community with anima/animus ?  A convent, a
>monastery... But then, then, would a community with Self be like plain
>vanilla Religion?
>
>Seriously, all communities go through those management-school buzz-word
>stages identified as "forming, storming, norming and performing".  And a
>real community finds ways to "re-form"... I also believe that communities
>develop a personnality of their own, transcending that of their leaders
>and members.  Aion, for example... ( ;-) )
>
>M. Scott Peck, in his "The Different Drum--Community-Building and Peace"
>presents the stages of community  as 1- pseudo-community: everybody is
>polite, no real communication occurs; 2- chaos: the painful maelstrom of
>conflict and confrontation of truth against truth; 3- letting go: letting
>meaning flow through (dia-logos), realizing that we can only act on
>ourselves, not change others; 4- community: it results from the previous
>stages, almost as a happening.  The difference with the management school
>recipe is found at 3 and 4.  Letting go is different from "norming".  In
>fact, "organizing" is an obstacle to real community, in Peck's experience,
>and "performing" is usually controlled by absolute hierarchical
>leadership, whereas leadership in community is mobile among the community,
>according to the task. Empowering, so to speak.  Peck's laws of community
>are also compelling reading.
>
>None of this sounds relevant to Aion: my apologies. But I am slowly edging
>into it, whenever the shadow gives me a breather.  And I am looking for
>community...
>
>regards
>
>Jean





From ctpost@aol.com Sun Sep 24 05:13:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: re (miles) THE COMMUNITY MYTH
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 13:13:00 -0400


Stephen responds to Miles:

>>>I don't have as part of my own experience of community the experience of a
community which has successfully made normative a set of principles (etc.),
first or otherwise, which the entire community agrees upon. <<<

I sensed that Miles was describing something more akin to *socially
constructed reality.* I think you can safely talk about agreement as a basis
for community within that framework.

BTW, did this thread find its way onto the AION list?

Ron





From ctpost@aol.com Sun Sep 24 05:13:13 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: kinds of power
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 13:13:13 -0400


Walter writes about Hillman:

>>>I am very
suspicious that the abusive streak is inherent in the book.  I
know that he has almost given up on therapy -- as being not
related to the city ie being a citizen -- etc.  But that is an
over reaction to his rarefied version of therapy.  I also suspect
that he takes his basic belief system with him into the corporate
world -- an impermeable membrane between the imagined
organisation and the RL one -- or am I way off beam?<<<

I'd like to hear you expand on the above a little more, as I am not that
familiar with Hillman. 

I would have to reread *Kinds of Power* to identify the kinds of abusiveness
you refer to. Nothing leapt out to me as I read your comments, except his
questioning of the issue of sexual harrassment at work as a denial of Eros. I
thought this was a bit extreme.

Ron



From hoon@apk.net Sun Sep 24 12:57:43 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: rere Community=Myth
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 20:57:43 -0400



***
>  From: Jean Garneau <jgarneau@igs.net>
>  -c-
>  loss of energy is a necessary function of any system.

Considerable dispute about this regarding non-closed physical systems; may
be not even applicable to messy social systems.

The life cycle metaphor I brought up is itself a bit too facile.
Re-organization starts to get at it; cycle of births?...tension of
opposites-->holding--->transcendence? (Should the Gods/Goddesses will it!)

-c-
>  is: what is the ideal rate of loss? Or, can a system
>  sufficiently closed to prevent energy loss produce useful
>  work? What about closed communities, then... Hey, this could
>  be fun.

Entropy in its scientific (!?) application applies (rigorously) only to
closed systems. I'm confused about what you mean by useful work being
contingent on sufficient closure. But, if it's going to be fun, my
confusion is besides the point. *^)
>
>  >A community with ego is a club; the one with shadow is a
>  mob; the one with persona...a bordello (the client and the
>  server putting on their archetypal masks); community with
>  anima/animus ? A convent, a monastery... But then, then,
>  would a community with Self be like plain vanilla Religion?

How 'bout mixing all those together? That's a real community, perhaps. But
isn't a community an extension of all the selves/Selves it's constituted by
(through?)...er, unconsciously (pun intended) speaking.

-c-
>  finds ways to "re-form"... I also believe that communities
>  develop a personnality of their own, transcending that of
>  their leaders and members. Aion, for example... ( ;-) )

I'd enjoy hearing this point elaborated upon.
>
-c-
>  letting go: letting meaning flow through (dia-logos),
>  realizing that we can only act on ourselves, not change
-c-

But, *letting go* seems to be another one of those pre-eminent catagories,
meaning: an idealized prospective rule. I'm making this arcane (yikes;
again; excuse me :[ )...Peck's type of community is not something I've
experienced. I'd like to learn more about what such a community is like.

-c-
>  breather. And I am looking for community...

greetings,

>
>  >regards
>
>  >Jean

and welcome!

>  From: ctpost@aol.com
-c-

>  I sensed that Miles was describing something more akin to
>  *socially constructed reality.* I think you can safely talk
>  about agreement as a basis for community within that
>  framework.

How is that basis socially constructed then? What can be really a challenge
is agreeing to disagree...a mature psychological stance when it happens in
a relationship for example, or a community.
>
-c-
>  as I read your comments, except his questioning of the issue
>  of sexual harrassment at work as a denial of Eros. I thought
>  this was a bit extreme.

Hillman is an eros-at-all-costs kind of guy.

>
>  Ron

Karl Weick: "The kind of change that is prominent in the organizing model
is incremental rather than discontinuous. We've tried to suggest that
innovation, imagination, and improvisation can be woven into everyday
activities as a chronic component of them." (from The Social Psychology of
Organizing)

Yay...here I see *letting go* as a basis for...improvisation etc. Cool.

Community as Jazz ensemble?
***



--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

The intelligent are to the intelligencia
what a gentleman is to a gent.

Earl Baldwin





From ctpost@aol.com Sun Sep 24 19:37:13 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Community=Myth
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 03:37:13 -0400


I wrote:

>  I sensed that Miles was describing something more akin to
>  *socially constructed reality.* I think you can safely talk
>  about agreement as a basis for community within that
>  framework.

Stephen asked:

>>>How is that basis socially constructed then? What can be really a
challenge is agreeing to disagree...a mature psychological stance when it
happens in a relationship for example, or a community.<<<

I would say that the reality of disagreement itself is socially constructed.
How we disagree (or agree to disagree) is predetermined by what are already
taken to be the requirements for agreement -- isn't that a primary activity
of community? Or of a relationship?  

Ron



From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Sep 24 23:45:24 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: kinds of power
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 11:45:24 GMT

Ron,

I wrote:
> I am very
> suspicious that the abusive streak is inherent in the book.  I
> know that he has almost given up on therapy -- as being not
> related to the city ie being a citizen -- etc.  But that is an
> over reaction to his rarefied version of therapy.  I also suspect
> that he takes his basic belief system with him into the corporate
> world -- an impermeable membrane between the imagined
> organisation and the RL one -- or am I way off beam?

You wrote
> I'd like to hear you expand on the above a little more, as I am not that
> familiar with Hillman. 

That last line is a bit obscure!   Let me try again.  In my
opinion Hillman, more than even Freud or Jung who do the same
thing, are happy to simply stick with the image.  Thus, if
someone is suicidal, then one looks for the images around _that_,
homicidal, same thing.  He is radically unwilling to think about
the RL victim of these 'images'.  He would only think of them
imaginally -- what is the victim archetype etc.  

> I would have to reread *Kinds of Power* to identify the kinds of abusiveness
> you refer to. 

Not really as this is the _exact_ thing I was thinking of:

> Nothing leapt out to me as I read your comments, except his
> questioning of the issue of sexual harrassment at work as a denial of Eros. 

I think he would say the same thing about concern for therapist
client abuse, parent child abuse.  In the latter case it would
not be a denial of Eros but to be over identified with the child
archetype.  Everything is seen as archetypal, and he does not
relate this to the material situation.  

Perhaps it is not even that which is the problem really -- it is
just that he is plain sexist and unsympathetic to victims of
sexual abuse and incest.  His otherwise attractive writing seems
like rationalisation for his own shadow side.

> I thought this was a bit extreme.

Yes.  I have listened to a few of his tapes and he becomes loud
and arrogant on these issues, and ridicules group members who
oppose him on this -- though that does not happen often.  To say
these things about Hillman feels like saying the emperor has no
clothes.  

Even your one example, is enough for me to see him quite naked.  


Walter.



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Sep 24 23:58:02 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Kinds of Power
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 11:58:02 GMT

Ron wrote:
> >  as I read your comments, except his questioning of the issue
> >  of sexual harrassment at work as a denial of Eros. I thought
> >  this was a bit extreme.

Steve wrote:
> Hillman is an eros-at-all-costs kind of guy.

Harassment is not Eros -- it is the denial of Eros.

by which I mean:

Harassment is not love -- it is the denial of love.

Walter.


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Mon Sep 25 06:02:35 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: thanks for a reminder
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:02:35 -0400


>  Steve wrote:
>  >Hillman is an eros-at-all-costs kind of guy.
>
>  Harassment is not Eros -- it is the denial of Eros.
>
>  by which I mean:
>
>  Harassment is not love -- it is the denial of love.
>
>  Walter.
>
***

I deserved that spank for my glibness. Thanks Walter. Eros-at-all-costs,
even if that cost is eros itself? Hillman is naked and I: almost so.

Excuse me, please, for being glib and callous.

Best to all.

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

Don't wait for the last judgement.
It happens every day. (Albert Camus)





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Sep 25 12:11:45 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: thanks for a reminder
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 00:11:45 GMT

Stephen,

I was not spanking I hope!  As I wrote that, I was not at all
sure that I was right -- I guess I have the humility somewhere
that Hillman is right and I am wrong, or that there is some
misunderstanding.  

> Excuse me, please, for being glib and callous.

If you were, then it was in that tradition of Hillman, who is
very seductive -- I certainly find that I can get pulled in with
that.  I am thinking too of a trainer I had for years in
psychodrama who only in _hindsight_ was glib callous and cruel,
and I see his mode coming out in me at times.  

But I take it you agree with my point about Hillman?  I'd like to
hear more -- I have difficulty in believing that 'seeing through'
Hillman is this easy!

Walter 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From jgarneau@igs.net Mon Sep 25 14:06:19 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: rere Community=Myth
From: Jean Garneau <jgarneau@igs.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 22:06:19 -0400


Jean-
>>  loss of energy is a necessary function of any system.
ron-
>
>Considerable dispute about this regarding non-closed physical systems; may
>be not even applicable to messy social systems.
>
>The life cycle metaphor I brought up is itself a bit too facile.
>Re-organization starts to get at it; cycle of births?...tension of
>opposites-->holding--->transcendence? (Should the Gods/Goddesses will it!)
>
Glad I qualified scientific analogies as risky... But take a given society
as a system: in order to function, it incurs losses in terms of "social
energy". Criminality as a statistical function of the group, for example.
Rites and traditions whose effigies wear down to invisibility and lose
their usefulness..
Economic conventions, too: the gold standard; Bretton Woods; now Free
Trade.  A book was in fact published in economics in the late seventies
about the entropy of economic systems.
Jean -
>>  is: what is the ideal rate of loss? Or, can a system
>>  sufficiently closed to prevent energy loss produce useful
>>  work? What about closed communities, then... Hey, this could
>>  be fun.

Ron-
>
>Entropy in its scientific (!?) application applies (rigorously) only to
>closed systems. I'm confused about what you mean by useful work being
>contingent on sufficient closure. But, if it's going to be fun, my
>confusion is besides the point. *^)
>
You're right.  My concept of a system relates to useful work and I think
that a given system producing a given output is a closed system relative to
that specific output.  And that output is a loss to the system, isn't it?
An open system in this context strikes me as analogous to chaos...

Jean-
>>
>>  >A community with ego is a club; the one with shadow is a
>>  mob; the one with persona...a bordello (the client and the
>>  server putting on their archetypal masks); community with
>>  anima/animus ? A convent, a monastery... But then, then,
>>  would a community with Self be like plain vanilla Religion?

Ron-
>
>How 'bout mixing all those together? That's a real community, perhaps. But
>isn't a community an extension of all the selves/Selves it's constituted by
>(through?)...er, unconsciously (pun intended) speaking.
>
Should've said "a community GOVERNED BY .... instead of  WITH"... And, yes,
a community has to contend with all aspects of its own personality.

Jean-
>>  finds ways to "re-form"... I also believe that communities
>>  develop a personnality of their own, transcending that of
>>  their leaders and members. Aion, for example... ( ;-) )

Ron-
>
>I'd enjoy hearing this point elaborated upon.
>>
:-(

Jean-
>>  letting go: letting meaning flow through (dia-logos),
>>  realizing that we can only act on ourselves, not change others

Ron-
>
>But, *letting go* seems to be another one of those pre-eminent catagories,
>meaning: an idealized prospective rule. I'm making this arcane (yikes;
>again; excuse me :[ )...Peck's type of community is not something I've
>experienced. I'd like to learn more about what such a community is like.
>

"The Different Drum" is well worth the purchase or a borrow from the local
library.  I haven't experienced Peck's type of community either, but would
do so at the first occasion. My understanding is that a long weekend
event/seminar is what it takes, in a group of up to 30-40 persons.  I also
found echo to Peck's observations in the writings of German theologian Hans
Kung on the subject of community and the absence thereof in the RC Church.
Professor Jay Conger (Harvard & McGill management schools) also wrote a
groundbreaking book, a collective, titled "Spirit at Work"  (Josey-Bass,
1994) about spirituality in the workplace, in which he demonstrates that
the workplace is one of the only remaining areas where we may experience
community nowadays.  But our behaviour there usually produces quite the
opposite result, leaving us not as members of a community but as mere pawns
in an arena of shadow and unconscious forces.

With respect to "letting go", I guess I meant letting go of the desire to
convert or exclude. Letting go of prejudices.  We often wish to change in
others what distinguishes them from us, or to exclude them from our sphere
because of the difference in question.  Eliminating prejudice doesn't mean
denying the very existence of the difference. Rather, it means being able
to let my meaning flow through to the other and vice-versa, through the
difference.  I then cease to see the difference as a barrier. What I have
let go of at that point is my refusal to see or hear the other for the
difference between us. I have changed myself, not the other.

Glad to be here.

Jean






From hoon@apk.net Mon Sep 25 16:02:12 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: rere: Community=Myth
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 00:02:12 -0400


Date:    Sun, 24 Sep 1995 03:37:13 -0400
From: ctpost@aol.com

***
>  I sensed that Miles was describing something more akin to
>  *socially constructed reality.* I think you can safely talk
>  about agreement as a basis for community within that
>  framework.
>
>  Stephen asked:
-c-
>
>  I would say that the reality of disagreement itself is
>  socially constructed. How we disagree (or agree to disagree)
>  is predetermined by what are already taken to be the
>  requirements for agreement -- isn't that a primary activity
>  of community? Or of a relationship?
>
>  Ron
***

I'd agree with this -it's obviously so; but, even if such
(socially-constructed or sui generic-!-normative) requirements predetermine
^how we disagree or agree^... still unaddressed are deeper questions about
the nature of the *how* and to what extent a single individual is subsumed
by what is *already taken to be the requirements for agreement*.

::Conventional psychology traditionally shuns any suggestion of noise.
Noise in the system is bad. Instead it adheres to the linear model, to
exactly the kind of predictive formulation that will fall apart in the
prospect of chaos. --- But if chaos exists it is both inevitable and
nonlinear.

::The traditional models ... cannot detect archetypal movements over time,
either in organizations as aggregates or in the souls of employees. The
subtler process of individuation is at work. (Individuation at Work; John
Hollwitz, fr. Psyche at Work, Chiron, 1994)

Agreement/disagreement; dominance/pre-eminence; letting go/holding the
tension of the opposites -- What's underneath? What does the soil of
community consist of?

I can't get my logos cap off! Goddess, where are you?


--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

...like a quintessence, and slowly come to
recognize that we meet ourselves
time and time again in a thousand
disguises on the path of life.   -- CG Jung 





From hoon@apk.net Mon Sep 25 16:02:23 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: thanks anyway
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 00:02:23 -0400


At 12:11 AM 9/25/95, Walter Logeman wrote:
>Stephen,
>
>I was not spanking I hope!  As I wrote that, I was not at all
-c-
>If you were, then it was in that tradition of Hillman, who is
>very seductive -- I certainly find that I can get pulled in with
>that.
-c-
>hear more -- I have difficulty in believing that 'seeing through'
>Hillman is this easy!
>
>Walter
>

I cut Hillman a lot of slack just to be thrown into his flow...but, I felt
spanked because the commentary dovetailed with my own lapse in feeling,
which suddenly put me in an introspective mood.

Hillman is seductive for the reader/appreciator perhaps because he himself
is seduced. I think of the early stages of anima involvement during which
the projection carries with it the affect of extreme thoughtless
fascination.

What I understood -and understood it not as an admonishment- is how
Hillman's fascination can at times be so non-judgemental or a-judgemental
that discrimination gets shoved aside: bathwater, then the baby.

But, next, I saw my own tossed off remark "eros at all costs" contained the
seed of the paradox itself. At all costs? Surely not at the cost of
discrimination and feeling...then eros cost itself.

Well, I spanked myself! Sexual harrassment is not something to be unfeeling
about. And, for somebody who wrote earlier about how the hyper-rationality
of the logos mind-set has as it's fatal flaw the lack of feeling...

What gets me...is, no matter how fun (personally) it is thinking and (heck)
pontificating and blowing my wind...there is something elemental about
one's lapses and it is of a piece with these pulsing threads.

For what is a community without feeling? Or discrimination? And how can it
come about given that these are deep psychic processes of the individual.

(Which is my axe to grind.)

yeah, thanks anyway ... a synchronistic spanking ... as an extroverted
intuitive when I catch my self... it's always humbling and valuable.

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

...like a quintessence, and slowly come to
recognize that we meet ourselves
time and time again in a thousand
disguises on the path of life.   -- CG Jung 





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Sep 25 17:00:57 1995
To: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz
Subject: Hey did you ever recieve the my Star Wars post?
From: tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Tama.Neill)
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:00:57 +1200

Hello there Walter,
 I know you must be a busy man-BUT-I actually sent another message with my
personal Guff one,  pertainging to Star Wars and your qusetioning of the
meaning-But I think it has just dissapeared into the Maelstrom...Arrgghh It
was rather interesting it was about Joseph Cambell a friend of George Lucas
who influenced him-He was really into Myths wrote a book called "The Hero
with a thousand Faces"
- well if I find it I'll re post it...
anyway ciao...

Oh I was very excited By Victoria-Wow this could add some more intersting
stuff-I might just post her...well bye!!


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Mon Sep 25 17:17:48 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Personal guff and answers?
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:17:48 +1300 (NDT)



> In regard, to the feeling of trancendence (misspelled?). First I 
> experienced it when a person who I loved told me that for him it wasn't 
> love. It felt like something opened under my feet, and I started falling 
> into infinity. I think Death approaches you that way. 
> 
> And then I 
> experienced a different kind, when I fell in love with another  person. I 
> opened myself up to him, at first he was scared, but then dropped his 
> defences, and oh.. my God! The conversation we had, and the words I said 
> (not only about love, but about life) were so deep, that I couldn't 
> believe they were my creations. It felt like I reached another level 
> within myself, and the harmony that we created was something out of 
> this world.   

I had a conversation about this sort of transcendence last night, the 
conversation itself was not transcendent, but we shared memories of times 
when we could truly talk to each other, understand each other, see things 
and say things that amaze even yourself as you say them. We were 
referring to our experiences on magic mushrooms, rather than when in 
love however. He said to me.. "it was weird... this *woman* is just not 
at all interested in such things (as drugs, so that they, my friend and 
this woman were straight) but ...
"the other night we were talking and man it was (so deep, bloody 
incredible etc etc)"
I am the first to agree that drugs can be misused and are not the answer 
to that much, but on the other hand I maintain the (perhaps slightly 
archaic) viewpoint that they are an effective route to that sort of
transcendence. And I don't think it is any less of a transcendence. 

Nobody ever became a professional super mushroom taker, you can't make a 
career of it, theres no *achievement* in it - this supports the view 
that there is no point to them. However, the same goes for the sort of 
transcendence that you are talking about, its definitely a deeply 
personal thing, of which only the people involved can be truly sure. 
It is very cool to have that sort of experience, (with or without 
chemicals) sometime in your life. Oh yeah and the age of psychedelia is 
(just about : ) upon us so get ready.

Miles






From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Mon Sep 25 17:38:30 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: rere Community=Myth
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:38:30 +1300 (NDT)


Miles here. How'r ya all?


> >Considerable dispute about this regarding non-closed physical systems; may
> >be not even applicable to messy social systems.

> Glad I qualified scientific analogies as risky... But take a given society
> as a system: in order to function, it incurs losses in terms of "social
> energy". Criminality as a statistical function of the group, for example.
> Rites and traditions whose effigies wear down to invisibility and lose
> their usefulness..

As far as I can see, even the physicists are getting away from the whole 
entropy deal, as far as systems of this complexity are concerned. I 
should say here that my previous post is much informed from the 
mathematical infromation angle on things. Thats coming from the whole 
thing where you talk about information systems, and include "community" 
in it, without once mentioning people, a completely ridiculous idea of 
course, but interesting as a way perhaps to cross fertilise some ideas.

> >>  is: what is the ideal rate of loss? Or, can a system
> >>  sufficiently closed to prevent energy loss produce useful
> >>  work? What about closed communities, then... Hey, this could
> >>  be fun.
> 
> Ron-
> >
> >Entropy in its scientific (!?) application applies (rigorously) only to
> >closed systems. I'm confused about what you mean by useful work being
> >contingent on sufficient closure. But, if it's going to be fun, my
> >confusion is besides the point. *^)
> >
> You're right.  My concept of a system relates to useful work and I think
> that a given system producing a given output is a closed system relative to
> that specific output.  And that output is a loss to the system, isn't it?
> An open system in this context strikes me as analogous to chaos...

Chaos, too right. The second, disequilibrium. A physicist would think 
like this. Take a system, if you close it off from the outside, then it 
will head to equilibrium, entropy will increase, energy will dissipate, 
it will 'die', but settle.  However, they would also say that
life is not closed, it is open, it is constantly in disequilibrium, 
energy is constantly expended and constantly brought in. There is an optimum 
rate of energy loss. The process of energy loss is in fact the whole 
system. Dissipative. In fact life can be likened to a small packet of 
extreme energy dissipation, where otherwise energy slowly leaks out into 
the environment, life finds these packets of energy and spends them as 
quick as possible. The paradox is that by doing this they can somehow 
create/find more energy. Membranes are also important 
(metaphorically/mathematically or in fact in the world of chemistry etc) 
a barrier has to exist beyond which concentration sharply drops off. Most 
of the energy needs to be spent internally, or else the system will 
dissipate its own process and cease to exist. Is this relevant? Well i 
dunno. If you are so inclined, there is a great book (non-mathematical), 
called "Self_Organising systems" by Paul Davies. 
But all this is *not* psycho/socio informed, there are no people in this. 
Obviously communitys involve a lot more... One thing mor I'd like to 
comment on,.

> >>  letting go: letting meaning flow through (dia-logos),
> >>  realizing that we can only act on ourselves, not change others
> 
> >
> >But, *letting go* seems to be another one of those pre-eminent catagories,
> >meaning: an idealized prospective rule. I'm making this arcane (yikes;
> >again; excuse me :[ )...Peck's type of community is not something I've
> >experienced. I'd like to learn more about what such a community is like.
> 
> With respect to "letting go", I guess I meant letting go of the desire to
> convert or exclude. Letting go of prejudices.  We often wish to change in
> others what distinguishes them from us, or to exclude them from our sphere
> because of the difference in question.  Eliminating prejudice doesn't mean
> denying the very existence of the difference. Rather, it means being able
> to let my meaning flow through to the other and vice-versa, through the
> difference.  I then cease to see the difference as a barrier. What I have
> let go of at that point is my refusal to see or hear the other for the
> difference between us. I have changed myself, not the other.
> 
 Yeah I agree with this. Letting go is important. Letting go enables a 
greater number of roles to be taken on, the more difference between what 
I do now and what I do later, the more information can flow through the 
system. More words perhaps, more archetypes that people can understand, 
these things give greater fulldom to the whole do they not? No?
Well never mind then.

Miles




From hoon@apk.net Tue Sep 26 00:55:36 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: rerere Community=Myth
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 08:55:36 -0400



***
>  Date:    Sun, 24 Sep 1995 22:06:19 -0400
>  From: Jean Garneau <jgarneau@igs.net>
>  -c-
>  Glad I qualified scientific analogies as risky... But take a
>  given society as a system: in order to function, it incurs
>  losses in terms of "social energy". Criminality as a
>  statistical function of the group, for example. Rites and
>  traditions whose effigies wear down to invisibility and lose
>  their usefulness..
>  Economic conventions, too: the gold standard; Bretton Woods;
>  now Free Trade. A book was in fact published in economics in
>  the late seventies about the entropy of economic systems.
>  -c-
>  given system producing a given output is a closed system
>  relative to that specific output. And that output is a loss
>  to the system, isn't it? An open system in this context
>  strikes me as analogous to chaos...

The output moves into a meta-system, lacking a better term, and may then
loop back to help re-organize its source system. Which is easier to
visualize happening with social systems, since it happens all the time. And
even when the feedback disorganizes it can be a very good thing...stasis
fighting transcendence every step of the way sometimes!

>  -c-
>  Should've said "a community GOVERNED BY .... instead of
>  WITH"... And, yes, a community has to contend with all
>  aspects of its own personality.
>  -c-
>   workplace, in which he demonstrates that the workplace is
>  one of the only remaining areas where we may experience
>  community nowadays. But our behaviour there usually produces
>  quite the opposite result, leaving us not as members of a
>  community but as mere pawns in an arena of shadow and
>  unconscious forces.
>
>  With respect to "letting go", I guess I meant letting go of
>  the desire to convert or exclude. Letting go of prejudices.
>  We often wish to change in others what distinguishes them
>  from us, or to exclude them from our sphere because of the
>  difference in question. Eliminating prejudice doesn't mean
>  denying the very existence of the difference. Rather, it
>  means being able to let my meaning flow through to the other
>  and vice-versa, through the difference. I then cease to see
>  the difference as a barrier. What I have let go of at that
>  point is my refusal to see or hear the other for the
>  difference between us. I have changed myself, not the other.
>  Glad to be here. Jean
>  -c-
>  is in fact the whole system. Dissipative. In fact life can
>  be likened to a small packet of extreme energy dissipation,
>  where otherwise energy slowly leaks out into the
>  environment, life finds these packets of energy and spends
>  them as quick as possible. The paradox is that by doing this
>  they can somehow create/find more energy.
>  -c-
>  Yeah I agree with this. Letting go is important. Letting go
>  enables a greater number of roles to be taken on, the more
>  difference between what I do now and what I do later, the
>  more information can flow through the system. More words
>  perhaps, more archetypes that people can understand, these
>  things give greater fulldom to the whole do they not? No?
>  Well never mind then.

>  Nobody ever became a professional super mushroom taker, you
>  can't make a career of it, theres no *achievement* in it -

We tried to in our mispent youth.

>  this supports the view that there is no point to them.
>  However, the same goes for the sort of transcendence that
>  you are talking about, its definitely a deeply personal
>  thing, of which only the people involved can be truly sure.
>  It is very cool to have that sort of experience,
>
>  Miles
>
***

One of the conundrums -I imagine!- for sociologists and psychologists is
that the evidence is quite paradoxical with regard to certain means and
results which  demonstrate that certain groups, organizations,
institutions, webs of relationship quite predictably or unpredictably
re-organize themselves to reach higher levels of (temporary) equilibrium.

Transcendence is a rather apt metaphor but more so a wondrous functional
component able to fuel some kinds of re-organization. If it can have its
way with the personality then by extension it may have its way with the
group.

Stanley Aronson talks about the qualities/premises of T-groups (in The
Social Animal, 1972):

1) To develop a spirit of inquiry, a willingness to examanine one's own
behavior and to experiment with one's role in the world.
2) To develop an awareness of more things about more people.
3) To develop greater authenticity in interpersonal relations; to feel
freer to be oneself and not feel compelled to play a role.
4) To develop the ability to act in a collaborative and mutually dependent
manner with peers, superiors, and subordinates, rather than in a
authoritative or submissive manner.
5) To develop the ability to resolve conflicts and disputes through problem
solving, rather than through coercion or manipulation.

Hmmm...written back when cyber community was in its infancy. (I'd change
^dependence^ to *interdependence*.)

BTW, what burns in my lapsed practitioner's heart are ideas about how
greater eros and creativity and transcendence may be focused to allow for
enough chaos to, as Gregory Bateson put it, constitute the *difference that
makes a difference*. (Chaos theory posits the small change that causes the
huge alteration.)

Best to all.





--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

We are so made, that we can only derive intense enjoyment from a contrast,
and only very little from a state of things. "Siggy" Freud





From vqv4981@is2.NYU.EDU Tue Sep 26 05:43:22 1995
To: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Technology,etc
From: Victoria  Vinogradova <vqv4981@is2.NYU.EDU>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 13:43:22 -0400 (EDT)


Hi, Walter!

I was thrilled to death that you are from New Zealand. I was there once 
for two hours, flying from Australia back to the States. I am very 
jelaous (because I happened to be in New York by chance, and then learned 
to love it - as opposed to falling in love). The bottom line is I love it 
now. But when I went to Australia - oh, God... I didn't want to leave for 
my life. Anyway, enough sentiments.

What I do is not technology only. It is a very creative program, and I 
tend to do all my projects on the esubject of human interactions (mostly 
love, whatever that is). I create video, and then sound tracks, and then 
special effects, etc. I love going back and forth from human to 
interactive tele- communications. 

So who do you follow in your practice? Jung? I would love to find out 
more. BTW, do you know a person named Ken Phillips? He is a jungian 
psychoanalyst, teaches here, and has a hospital for koalas in Australia, 
where he studies their creativity. Quite a collection..

I will definitaly hang in there and particiapte in your discussions.

Vica



From vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu Tue Sep 26 05:48:14 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Hillman
From: Victoria  Vinogradova <vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 13:48:14 -0400 (EDT)


On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Walter Logeman wrote:
> 
......

> If you were, then it was in that tradition of Hillman, who is
> very seductive -- I certainly find that I can get pulled in with
> that.  I am thinking too of a trainer I had for years in
> psychodrama who only in _hindsight_ was glib callous and cruel,
> and I see his mode coming out in me at times.  
> 
> But I take it you agree with my point about Hillman?  I'd like to
> hear more -- I have difficulty in believing that 'seeing through'
> Hillman is this easy!
> 
Walter! You got me! Please suggest some reading by Hillman. 
He sounds very... tantalizing. 

Thanks,

Vica

___________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
> http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html
> 
> 



From vqv4981@is2.NYU.EDU Tue Sep 26 05:48:14 1995
To: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>
Subject: Hillman
From: Victoria  Vinogradova <vqv4981@is2.NYU.EDU>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 13:48:14 -0400 (EDT)

On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Walter Logeman wrote:
> 
......

> If you were, then it was in that tradition of Hillman, who is
> very seductive -- I certainly find that I can get pulled in with
> that.  I am thinking too of a trainer I had for years in
> psychodrama who only in _hindsight_ was glib callous and cruel,
> and I see his mode coming out in me at times.  
> 
> But I take it you agree with my point about Hillman?  I'd like to
> hear more -- I have difficulty in believing that 'seeing through'
> Hillman is this easy!
> 
Walter! You got me! Please suggest some reading by Hillman. 
He sounds very... tantalizing. 

Thanks,

Vica

___________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
> http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html
> 
> 



From vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu Tue Sep 26 06:00:13 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Personal guff and answers?
From: Victoria  Vinogradova <vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 14:00:13 -0400 (EDT)



Vica-
> 
> > In regard, to the feeling of trancendence (misspelled?). First I 
> > experienced it when a person who I loved told me that for him it wasn't 
> > love. It felt like something opened under my feet, and I started falling 
> > into infinity. I think Death approaches you that way. 
> > 
> > And then I 
> > experienced a different kind, when I fell in love with another  person. I 
> > opened myself up to him, at first he was scared, but then dropped his 
> > defences, and oh.. my God! The conversation we had, and the words I said 
> > (not only about love, but about life) were so deep, that I couldn't 
> > believe they were my creations. It felt like I reached another level 
> > within myself, and the harmony that we created was something out of 
> > this world.   
> 
Miles-
> I had a conversation about this sort of transcendence last night, the 
> conversation itself was not transcendent, but we shared memories of times 
> when we could truly talk to each other, understand each other, see things 
> and say things that amaze even yourself as you say them. We were 
> referring to our experiences on magic mushrooms, rather than when in 
> love however. He said to me.. "it was weird... this *woman* is just not 
> at all interested in such things (as drugs, so that they, my friend and 
> this woman were straight) but ...
> "the other night we were talking and man it was (so deep, bloody 
> incredible etc etc)"
> I am the first to agree that drugs can be misused and are not the answer 
> to that much, but on the other hand I maintain the (perhaps slightly 
> archaic) viewpoint that they are an effective route to that sort of
> transcendence. And I don't think it is any less of a transcendence. 
> 
It's interesting that you turned the subject in this direction. I never 
took mushrooms, even though some of my friends went through all the 
possible drugs there are, and therefore I had a chance. But yuou know 
what is preventing me from doing it? It might sound silly, but I am 
afraid to loose my head and not return. 

(Even though Castaneda said in one of his books, that "we are all afraid 
to loose our minds, but we lost them already").

 So anyway, I know I'll do it one day, I am just waiting for the moment. 
But about the message from "Naked lunch"?

I think Castaneda went the deepest way in figuring these things out. God 
bless him for writing those books.    


> Nobody ever became a professional super mushroom taker, you can't make a 
> career of it, theres no *achievement* in it - this supports the view 
> that there is no point to them. However, the same goes for the sort of 
> transcendence that you are talking about, its definitely a deeply 
> personal thing, of which only the people involved can be truly sure. 
> It is very cool to have that sort of experience, (with or without 
> chemicals) sometime in your life. Oh yeah and the age of psychedelia is 
> (just about : ) upon us so get ready.
> 

Why would one want to become a professional mushroom taker?

> Miles
> 

Vica
> 
> 
> 



From peterd@chopper.macmedia.com.au Tue Sep 26 11:31:54 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Personal guff and answers?
From: Peter Davey <peterd@chopper.macmedia.com.au>
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:01:54 +0930


>I am the first to agree that drugs can be misused and are not the answer
>to that much, but on the other hand I maintain the (perhaps slightly
>archaic) viewpoint that they are an effective route to that sort of
>transcendence. And I don't think it is any less of a transcendence.

There are some interesting questions about what it is that is transcended,
and the real and demonstrable application of an arguably augmented
consciousness.

However, I would agree that altering ones state of consciousness with drugs
can be a powerful tool with which to experiment with ones world-view.

It is interesting that the ingestion of psychoactive plants is often a
component of shamanic training and practice - if you are training your
imagination to operate in different worlds, such things provide dependable
starting points.

As do meditative practices, incantations... for example, to move from the
everyday world to cyberspace involves certain rituals of place and posture,
and the occasional incantation.

>
>Nobody ever became a professional super mushroom taker, you can't make a
>career of it, theres no *achievement* in it - this supports the view
>that there is no point to them. However, the same goes for the sort of
>transcendence that you are talking about, its definitely a deeply
>personal thing, of which only the people involved can be truly sure.

...depends again on what you are looking to achieve.

>It is very cool to have that sort of experience, (with or without
>chemicals) sometime in your life. Oh yeah and the age of psychedelia is
>(just about : ) upon us so get ready.

...especially without (but that often takes more effort).
Is this some new age of psychedelia us old fogies haven't seen before?
My age of ... started thirty-odd years ago.

Peter





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Tue Sep 26 13:25:30 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Personal guff and answers?
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 13:25:30 +1200


Hi there people!!
  Interesting wow Magic Mushrooms ( he hee he-reminds me of the Caterpilla
in Alice in Wonderland that is resting on the Mushroom smoking a pipe and
blowing smoke pictures & hallucinagations)

>Miles-

 conversation
transcendence
 night
 conversation
  truly
 talk
other
understand
 see
 things
 say
things
 amaze
yourself
say
 them
 experiences
 magic
 mushrooms
 when
 love
 He
 said
 to
me..
 "it
 was
 weird...
 this
 *woman*
  not
 interested
things
 drugs
 my
friend
 woman
 were
straight
 but ...
 other
 night
 talking
 man
so
 deep
 bloody
 incredible
 etc etc
the
 first
 agree
 drugs
 can
 be
 misused
 not
 answer
much
on
other
 hand
maintain
slightly
archaic
viewpoint
  effective
 route
 sort
 transcendence
 think
 any
less
 transcendence ?

-A bit clumsy but I thought I'd give parsing ago-maybe someone better tell
me the finer points?

It's interesting that you turned the subject in this direction. I never
>took mushrooms, even though some of my friends went through all the
>possible drugs there are, and therefore I had a chance. But yuou know
>what is preventing me from doing it? It might sound silly, but I am
>afraid to loose my head and not return.

  Yea I can Identify with that-I must admit to being a bit of a dreamer- &
I'm quite shure I could start to float and lose contact with reality if a
did some stuff (drugs)
-Once I I went on a 8 day fast-(not eating foods-comsuming liquids) to
clear up my syatem because I have psiorasis(I'm not sure spelt right?) well
it's kinda like eczema but its diff
-so I fasted and had enema's yuk but I got pretty spaced out along the way
I was feeling Euphoric like I was on something-everything was in emense
clarity-sight sound touch feeling wow
-I was taking things seriously in strange ways-I stayed round at a friends
and did not sleep went out and waited till dawn and went for walk along
beach coollection seaweed,  bright stones,  soft glass and put in bags
-strange now-and we had a water fight accect I was just into letting my
self get drenched accepting the water and giveing in...
& later one night I got up around midnight & started cleanseing myself with
ot salty water and a cystal imagining my skin problem to disolve away.I
rubbed my self with the flannel & when I squeezed the water into the toilet
it was all cloudy like some bad stuff was coming out-and I deep breathed(I
think I started hyper ventalating) and focused on points of light on the
wall like stars and made a pattern.
It was all quite over the top-and your probably thinking strange things of
me now-but never mind-I exspress-I re tell-People react how the will-but I
shared and I have left my self open and I'm sure that I wont be estranged
otherwise I guess I would not be typing-but hey its so compelling to tell
it...

Hey Ya know how I said I was born on a Hippie Commune.Well my Mum Linda
used to be into a lot of drugs-dope and LSD none of the hard stuff-butr
shes told me of some pretty wild trips shaes had & some nightmeresh
stuff-But shes really down to earth kinda person-so I think it helps to be
stable...
 oh and shes read Castaneda-I think I have 1 of the books at home I must
have a read I have been hearing interesting things about it..

>(Even though Castaneda said in one of his books, that "we are all afraid
>to loose our minds, but we lost them already").-cool thought...

> So anyway, I know I'll do it one day, I am just waiting for the moment.
>But about the message from "Naked lunch"? Oh my frined watched that the
>other day was blown away he thought he was seeing things-do you recomend
>it?

>> Nobody ever became a professional super mushroom taker, you can't make a
>> career of it, theres no *achievement* in it - this supports the view
>> that there is no point to them. However, the same goes for the sort of
>> transcendence that you are talking about, its definitely a deeply
>> personal thing, of which only the people involved can be truly sure.
>> It is very cool to have that sort of experience, (with or without
>> chemicals) sometime in your life. Oh yeah and the age of psychedelia is
>> (just about : ) upon us so get ready.(okay could you elaborate on the
>>age of Psychedelia-what are your beleifs?)

>Why would one want to become a professional mushroom taker?

Well I dont know about a pro M taker but Timothy Leary was a professional
LSD taker he reasearched it at Harvard-hes also got some pretty interesting
stuff to say about drugs and stuuff-I bring it along to Uni and write some
stuff from it eh?

Well hope I have not phreaked any of you?

Hear from ya's

Sorry about the Font I just wanted to do it to Miles stuff but NO go so
what the hell..
Once I sent a Star Wars thing on the meaning of the film and stuff but it
never arrived did it?

arggh I have got totally tied up on this and I need to be doing an essay
arrgghh got to GO!!


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra





From waerwolf@lava.net Tue Sep 26 14:48:52 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: drugs, and am I lost
From: WaerWolf <waerwolf@lava.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 16:48:52 -1000


A few days (or weeks, what have you) away from the mailbox and I've lost the
thread...
 Oh well...
 
 Just a thought regarding drug use, tho:
 
Think for a minute... 
 
All psychoactive plants are a part of the same natural world as ourselves
(at least, hopefully we're part of it still). It seems to me that everything
in the natural world (read: as it was/would be if we didn't have to change
things around) is related and serves a purpose, so to speak... Not perhaps
in and of itself, but in the grand scope of the ecosystem. we have (or had,
perhaps) some ecological purpose, too. The things an organism encounters
force it to adapt, change, or whatever, but in the big picture, not much
changes...
 
(I'm losing my train of thought as people wander in and out of the room and
jabber at me... Sorrry)
 
Anyway, what I would be getting at if I could coalesce [sp] my thoughts is
that psychoactive drugs aren't doing anything we couldn't do ourselves IF WE
KNEW WE COULD DO IT... And how to do it...
 
Perhaps they are like training wheels, or a better analogy might be a catalyst. 

(Now I really forgot where I was going with this)

And, when you take these drugs, they really aren't doing anything in
themselves...Aren't they just causing your brain to move in a different
pattern?...

bits of fragmented thought that may connect to someone else's ... I hope...



                                        <WW>




From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Wed Sep 27 00:20:40 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Personal guff and answers?
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 01:20:40 +1300 (NDT)


Just one brief comment... (for now)

 I wrote...
> >chemicals) sometime in your life. Oh yeah and the age of psychedelia is
> >(just about : ) upon us so get ready.

 Peter wrote...
> Is this some new age of psychedelia us old fogies haven't seen before?
> My age of ... started thirty-odd years ago.
 No... just a joke *) reading such ancient ('69) tomes 
as "Altered States of Consciousness" - the 'scientific' one, not the 
novel-  one rather gets the impression that some of the pschological 
community at the advent of the age of psychedlia rather thought that it 
would have a *major* effect upon the larger community. Perhaps they were 
right. Surely such events of transcendence as to turn a soldier against 
war (myth or reality????) would alter the framework of society. Perhaps 
in fact this is why the community reacted so strongly against these 
things. Personal transcendencies are surely a threat to any community. As 
the word suggests, the experience of "deep understanding/relation" allows a 
reevaluation or *transcendence* of the communities normally accepted 
truths/values/axioms.
The question now arises, does it go around the other way?? is it 
possible to become 'without norms/values' for a second without 
experiencing *transcendence* (as it has been described)? 


gotta go,

Miles

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"Love one another" - Jesus




From hoon@apk.net Wed Sep 27 00:49:47 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Characters of any description
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 08:49:47 -0400


(You know autumn has arrived when discussion groups shed their summer
lurkers. :-] )

I was hanging out in my companion's john the other morning when I happened
to come across the September Harper's Bazaar -well, it was my only reading
choice- and it fell open in my hands to this piece.


"Any on-line experience amounts to an out-of-the-body experience, and that
bodilessness can warp our experience. --- Such computer prompted reverie is
the natural domain of Sherry Turkel, and MIT professor best known for The
Second Self, her farseeing 1984 book about how computers were altering our
sense of ourselves. In her compelling new book, Life On the Screen:
Identity In the Age of the Internet, to be published next month, she
plunges headfirst into cyberspace, probing computer intelligence, on-line
gender swapping, even virtual violence.

Life On the Screen should prove particularly fascinating to women. Until
the mid-1980s, women were often considered computerphobic. But Turkel
argues that reticence, not phobia, kept us away. Computers had been
presented as male machines-with terminology like *crash*, *kill*, and
*abort*. In recent years both sexes have begun viewing the computer less as
a tool than an ^expressive medium^ that embodies our ideas-a kind of
musical instrument for the intellect and psyche.

Turkle writes: ^The internet hastens that shift. By allowing us to play
characters of any description on-line, it provides women with a model for
integrating the many roles we assume daily. Virtual cross-dressing tickles
our notions of the significance of our gender. And on-line conversations,
saved and reread later, reveal how much of every relationship blooms from
our fantastic projections.^ "


I personally like the musical instrument metaphor, although I'll read
Turkel's book to discover what is really meant by "the internet provides
women with a model for integrating the many roles we assume daily." hmmm.

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

Is there anything I lack?
    The leaves fall.

Santoka Taneda





From vqv4981@is2.NYU.EDU Wed Sep 27 02:52:54 1995
To: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Hillman
From: Victoria  Vinogradova <vqv4981@is2.NYU.EDU>
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:52:54 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 26 Sep 1995, Walter Logeman wrote:

> 
> Vica,
> 
> > Walter! You got me! Please suggest some reading by Hillman. 
> > He sounds very... tantalizing. 
> 
> Hmmm . . .  just as I am saying what I _don't_ like about him.
> Nevermind --


Thanks, Walter. Sorry you don't like him, but I need to read the first 
source to create my opinion, right? As they say, the fact you talk about 
flying deosn't mean that you really know what it feels like - have to try 
it yourself.

Vica

> > _ReVisioning Psychology- > 
> would be a good book to go with -- for exerpts from his writing:
> _A Blue Fire_ edited by Thomas Moore of _Care of the Soul_ fame
> and _Spring_ is a journal that he edits.
> 
> For all my reluctance I don't mind recommending him as something
> of his way of viewing the psyche is highly relevant to what I see
> (in a round about sort of way) as the work of this list:  to
> explore the psyche of the net.
> 
> All the best with it.
> 
> Walter 
> 
> _____________________________________________________
> Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
> http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html
> 
> 



From hoon@apk.net Wed Sep 27 04:04:12 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Mile's single second
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 12:04:12 -0400


-c-
>Personal transcendencies are surely a threat to any community. As
>the word suggests, the experience of "deep understanding/relation" allows a
>reevaluation or *transcendence* of the communities normally accepted
>truths/values/axioms.
>The question now arises, does it go around the other way?? is it
>possible to become 'without norms/values' for a second without
>experiencing *transcendence* (as it has been described)?
>
>
>gotta go,
>
>Miles
>

WOW! You have hit the mythical nail squarely on the head. I'll add that one
of the challenges -and not an impossible one in my experience-  is how to
go through either the washing machine of the pyschedelic experience and
remain in the world and likewise how to experience the transformation of
transcendence and remain in the world.

Most do, yes?

Is there something of the net that may *seriously :)* alter consciousness?
Tama mentioned Leary's book which seeks to affirm such a prospect.

Big leap for this thread IMHO if we dare to weave it further. Thanks.


--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

The only completely consistent people are the dead.

Aldous Huxley





From bgarrett@baste.magibox.net Wed Sep 27 13:13:30 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Hillman
From: Bill Garrett <bgarrett@baste.magibox.net>
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 20:13:30 -0500


>Vica,
>
>> Walter! You got me! Please suggest some reading by Hillman.
>> He sounds very... tantalizing.

There's a slim volume called "Inter-Views" that contains some provocative
stuff. And if you are into typology and the four functions, there is a
section on the Feeling function in "Jung's Typology." I believe Marie von
Franz wrote the other section, on type in general.

Bill

+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Bill Garrett  (INTJ)
bgarrett@.magibox.net
http://www.wp.com/Bill&Jill/











From ctpost@aol.com Thu Sep 28 02:19:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: kinds of power
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:19:00 -0400


Walter,
I gather Hillman is overcompensating for the history of puritanical attitudes
toward eros in American culture. It occurs to me that Camille Paglia, another
dissenting voice, may be taking a similar stance. Both make me uncomfortable
while challenging my own puritanical assumptions. 

Where is the place for Eros in the inner pantheon? He treads on others; wants
more than his share of the space. I have never known how to make enough room
for him. Thwarted, he gets unruly. 

The power of love and the power of erotic desire seem forever at odds. Some
(not all) forms of love are willing to compromise, but eros is not. Desire,
with its open hands held out, wants everything.  Everything.

Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Thu Sep 28 02:19:05 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Kinds of Power
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:19:05 -0400


Jean writes:

>>>I suppose that what I am grasping at is the loose notion that harassment
is a form of Eros and love, but perverted, not necessarily their denial.<<<

I suppose Hillman would say that desire is desire. Perversion is in the eye
of the beholder, and there may even be general social agreement about what
is/isn't a perverted desire. 

But harassment has been defined as unwanted advances, and the person who is
the object of someone else's desire gets to say whether any advances are
wanted. I think what you or I may consider perverted is interesting, but not
relevant to the issue of harassment.

Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Thu Sep 28 02:19:13 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Mile's single second
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:19:13 -0400


Stephen writes:

>>>Is there something of the net that may *seriously :)* alter
consciousness?<<<

I have never had a transcendent experience on the Net. I don't think I know
anyone who has. What are you talking about?

Just curious,
Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Thu Sep 28 02:19:17 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Personal guff and answers
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:19:17 -0400


Miles writes,

>>>is it possible to become 'without norms/values' for a second without
experiencing *transcendence* (as it has been described)?<<<

I don't think I understand the question, but I seem to feel compelled to
answer. To the extent that *norms/values* keep us in a box mentally and
emotionally, it's probably more likely than not to experience something like
an incredible transcendent-like release when they disappear, if only for a
moment.

I came home from work 2 nights ago (imagine a day of juggling multiple
projects, much pressure, phone calls, followed by a 2-hour commute), and my
wife, meeting me at the train station, had been listening to a story on
public radio, which she related to me on the way back to our house. It was a
true story, but about amazing people, so utterly out of the ordinary, my day
immediately fell away from me and I literally became my self. 

At home, dinner was ready; my son (on the phone, as usual) greeted me and we
hugged each other. I felt complete and utter release from the norms/values of
my workaday world and felt the strongest impulse to say to my wife: "I quit
my job today." And for a moment there was this additional rush of relief, as
if it had really happened and a long ordeal was finally over forever. I
didn't say the words, just sat down to dinner, and enjoyed the afterglow of
not being in the world for a while. 

Is it more likely to experience terror at the loss of norms and values? Maybe
that's why they have so strong a hold on us. I don't mind the occasional
*escape*, however.

thx
Ron




From ctpost@aol.com Thu Sep 28 02:19:23 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Community=Myth
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:19:23 -0400


Stephen writes:

>>> Gregory Bateson put it, constitute the *difference that
makes a difference*.<<<

Years ago, I learned this as someone's definition of *information*. Is this
what Bateson (whom I don't recall ever reading) was talking about? OR did
someone borrow the phrase and reapply it?

thx
ron



From amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu Thu Sep 28 05:43:35 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Mile's single second
From: "Andrew J. McHugh" <amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 13:43:35 -0400 (EDT)


On Wed, 27 Sep 1995 ctpost@aol.com wrote:

> I have never had a transcendent experience on the Net. I don't think I know
> anyone who has. What are you talking about?

    Perhaps what he is talking about is possibly learning something 
on the network that has a significant effect on your life. Finding out 
that someone who you know really well is something completely different 
than you had ever expected... that sort of thing. I doubt that anything 
on the net could have any *direct* power to affect the people who use it, 
after all, everything on the net is mostly written in English and it 
needs to go through the language-reading centers of the brain before it 
can change anything in you. So anything on the net that would have the 
ability to exercise a transcendent experience would have to be something 
that the reader is open to and would not reject when the offer of reading 
and understanding is made. 

    Has anyone experienced this kind of life-altering information on 
the network?


-----
Andrew McHugh
amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu
-----




From jgarneau@igs.net Thu Sep 28 15:27:07 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Kinds of Power
From: Jean Garneau <jgarneau@igs.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 23:27:07 -0400


>Jean writes:
>
>>>>I suppose that what I am grasping at is the loose notion that harassment
>is a form of Eros and love, but perverted, not necessarily their denial.<<<
>
>I suppose Hillman would say that desire is desire. Perversion is in the eye
>of the beholder, and there may even be general social agreement about what
>is/isn't a perverted desire.
>
>But harassment has been defined as unwanted advances, and the person who is
>the object of someone else's desire gets to say whether any advances are
>wanted. I think what you or I may consider perverted is interesting, but not
>relevant to the issue of harassment.
>
>Ron

Ron,

There cannot be love or eros without an object any more than you can have
harassment without a victim. But where love will revere its object,
harassment will revile it.  I see the dynamics at work as identical, one a
perversion of the other.  Thus becometh the notion of perversion relevant
to that of harassment!
You speak of advances, but exactions and assaults could also be included in
the definition;  harassment understood exclusively as sexual is harassment
misunderstood.   The libido in harassment is centered on power, not sex.



Jean





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Thu Sep 28 17:38:32 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Mile's single second
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 18:38:32 +1300 (NDT)


Hello?

> 
> Stephen writes:
> 
> >>>Is there something of the net that may *seriously :)* alter
> consciousness?<<<
> 
> I have never had a transcendent experience on the Net. I don't think I know
> anyone who has. What are you talking about?
> 
> Just curious,
> Ron

For myself I  don't think the net would have provided many people with the 
sort of transcendent experience we are talking about. This is a
bit of a drag really something should definitely be done about it. On the other 
hand I imagine that it has happened to some people probably in a setting 
of interactive irc or something of that nature, or PERHAPS through email, 
but of course it is not the net itself that provides this but rather the 
people at each end. Perhaps it could make it a bit more likely by linking 
people to other people that they wouldn't have otherwise been linked to, 
but then the emotion, I'm afraid, just a'int there. Forgive me all you net 
worshippers but its kinda true. I've heard that the net 
can be addictive, particularly MUDs and MOOS, but this seems to me to be 
counter transcendent. PErhaps we want another word? More to the point 
what can we do about it? What is it about the psychological experience of 
that sharing transcendent feeling that could be encouraged here? 
One other thing comes to mind.... Another most important transcendent 
experience occurs during therapy. So yes, such things can be encouraged.
 
What is needed for it here?
Closure? - a small group. Anonymity? - i'm thinking here of the thing that 
occurs when a "doctor" tells you that nothing will go beyond this room . 
It seems that some would like to share all their feelings to the whole 
world. BUT how much more of an experience would this be if this was 
reciprocated; if you knew that there was a small group that you felt 
would take your comments with much thought? How transcendent?

For me at least this writing is something I only ever get around to when 
I am rushed and just quickly dashing through the daily influx of mail, 
thinking constantly "gotta go soon"..... "quick dash off the point and get 
on to the next message". Also with other groups such as future culture or 
Usenet, there is, it seems, a much wider participation. this creates two 
things...
          a) It makes me feel a lot more nervous about posting to them 
but on the other hand a lot more concentrated on it
          b) It makes any sense of an immediate circle of "friends" or 
listeners a lot more unlikely (though still possible), but on the other 
hand the "community" thing is often stronger simply because of weight of 
numbers (I suspect).

What will hapeen to Psybernet? Where are we going?
Anyway "gotta go"...
Hope you are all having a great old time.

Miles





From jgarneau@igs.net Thu Sep 28 23:15:01 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Personal guff and answers
From: Jean Garneau <jgarneau@igs.net>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 07:15:01 -0400


Ron wrote, in a moving account of an experience relating to *norms and values*

> there was this additional rush of relief, as
>if it had really happened and a long ordeal was finally over forever. I
>didn't say the words, just sat down to dinner, and enjoyed the afterglow of
>not being in the world for a while.

Perhaps it was the opposite: an afterglow of having been in the world for a
while...
>
>Is it more likely to experience terror at the loss of norms and values? Maybe
>that's why they have so strong a hold on us. I don't mind the occasional
>*escape*, however.
>
Norms are the values of society, in a sense.  Values as claimed by
organisations inevitably become normative and a constraint on individual
behaviour.  Personal values, according to Rokeach and some others, are
usually set by the time we are young adults, con usually change only as a
result of a significant emotional event for the individual, and must fit
some criteria in order to rate as values:  e.g. dictate our behaviour; be
un-negotiable; be freely chosen, in full awareness of alternatives and
consequences.

Jean





From peterd@chopper.macmedia.com.au Thu Sep 28 23:46:45 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Mile's single second
From: Peter Davey <peterd@chopper.macmedia.com.au>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 21:16:45 +0930


>
>For myself I  don't think the net would have provided many people with the
>sort of transcendent experience we are talking about.

The transcendent experience is internal to a human being. I have never been
quite sure whether the intervention of another human being is necessary -
it seems to me that "opening" to "the higher self" is, at least
theoretically, sufficient. However, experience has shown me that there are
circumstances / interventions which have encouraged me to focus my
attention in particular ways.

>Perhaps it could make it a bit more likely by linking
>people to other people that they wouldn't have otherwise been linked to,
>but then the emotion, I'm afraid, just a'int there.

Events over the last half year have forced me to consider the possibility
that emotional and/or intuitive links between individuals can operate over
considerable distances. The e-mail link can be used to focus and monitor
such phenomena.

>What is it about the psychological experience of
>that sharing transcendent feeling that could be encouraged here?
>
>What is needed for it here?
>Closure? - a small group. Anonymity? - i'm thinking here of the thing that
>occurs when a "doctor" tells you that nothing will go beyond this room .
>It seems that some would like to share all their feelings to the whole
>world. BUT how much more of an experience would this be if this was
>reciprocated; if you knew that there was a small group that you felt
>would take your comments with much thought? How transcendent?

While small focussed groups would seem to be much more productive working
environments, commitment, focus and motivation are immensely important.
Such a group would, I think, need a clearly stated goal and a set of simple
ground rules. I would imagine that the work of the participants in such a
group would be done individually, and the email connection used to share
and examine results and observations.

>
>For me at least this writing is something I only ever get around to when
>I am rushed and just quickly dashing through the daily influx of mail,
>thinking constantly "gotta go soon"..... "quick dash off the point and get
>on to the next message".

So much of our mail is in exactly this mode. Topics get lost, threads
drift, as we career through the information space like untrained hounds in
pursuit of a long-gone fox.

(Thats my two cents worth for tonight...)

Peter





From hoon@apk.net Fri Sep 29 02:30:56 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: difference
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 10:30:56 -0400



***
>  Date:    Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:19:23 -0400
>  From: ctpost@aol.com
>
>  Stephen writes:
>
>  >>>Gregory Bateson put it, constitute the *difference that
>  makes a difference*.<<<
>
>  Years ago, I learned this as someone's definition of
>  *information*. Is this what Bateson (whom I don't recall
>  ever reading) was talking about? OR did someone borrow the
>  phrase and reapply it?
>
>  thx
>  ron
***

Ron, I can't answer this question. Bateson's formulation doesn't strike me
as original in concept, but it's very pithy. (BTW Bateson was influenced by
Norbert Weiner, who helped father cybernetics.)

Technically, "small variations in micro input lead to large variations in
macro output". This may regard information, evolution, ecology,
self-organization, organization, physics, i.e. all sorts of systems
thinking. It's fashionable today as a formulation within chaos theory.

Here's Bateson summing up what he means by difference:

...I have offered two central points in what I might call bilogical
epistimology. First, that all mental life is related to the physical body
as difference or contrast is related to the static and the uniform. And
second, I have offered you the idea that the viewing of the world in terms
of *things* is a distortion supported by language, and that the correct
view of the world is in the terms of dynamic relations which are the
governors of growth. (from A Sacred Unity: Harper)


SC: Even if (?) mental life arises out of the *whole* body, his first point
remains at least metaphorically apt...he didn't deal with mental life as an
image construct, to mention how some think about it today. Point two
remains powerful: a process view for which small discrete differences must
interconnect and feedback. Bateson was fascinated by the idea of the matrix
being the fundamental image of ecology (broadly applied,) and he helped
move whole/open systems thinking forward even if his methodology, similar
to Jung's, was largely interpretive and offered up only a few testable
models.

The breeze from Cleveland dies down.







--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

No great idea ever enters the mind through the mouth. --Proverb





From hoon@apk.net Fri Sep 29 02:33:39 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: re>single second
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 10:33:39 -0400


Date:    Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:19:13 -0400
From: ctpost@aol.com

[ Miles' single second ] ty


***
>  Stephen writes:
>
>  >>>Is there something of the net that may *seriously :)*
>  alter consciousness?<<<
>
>  I have never had a transcendent experience on the Net. I
>  don't think I know anyone who has. What are you talking
>  about?
>
>  Just curious,
>  Ron
***

Neither have I. Just wondering if any body else has.

Alas, I realize *transcendence* means many different things to each of us.
Life changing, soul altering, out-of-self, into Self...? ....? large *T*,
small *t*?

>  Date:    Wed, 27 Sep 1995 13:43:35 -0400 (EDT)
>  From: "Andrew J. McHugh" <amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu>
>
>  Perhaps what he is talking about is possibly learning
>  something on the network that has a significant effect on
>  your life. Finding out that someone who you know really well
>  is something completely different than you had ever
>  expected... that sort of thing. I doubt that anything on the
>  net could have any *direct* power to affect the people who
>  use it, after all, everything on the net is mostly written
>  in English and it needs to go through the language-reading
>  centers of the brain before it can change anything in you.
>  So anything on the net that would have the ability to
>  exercise a transcendent experience would have to be
>  something that the reader is open to and would not reject
>  when the offer of reading and understanding is made.
>  -----
>  Andrew McHugh
>  amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu
>  -----

When I first jacked into the world wide web I spent an intensely engrossing
three weeks surfing. It was amazing to be emersed in its scope, its
surprises, its images, sounds, concepts, content, and the different
personalities of its pages (people?).

Not transcendent by my personal definition -not really soul shaking or
personality altering IOW- but it did inspire a total redirection of my
energy and a taste of my predeliction for being strongly compelled by
something new. The experience was in the direction of transcendence *for
me* because of my energy's going where it wanted to go.

With greater bandwidth, smart Java agents, exponential growth, real-time
exchanges, video conferencing, etc. could it offer up an experience of
transcendent caliber? There isn't any reason for me to think the answer is
*no*. We'll see! and hear, and read. (Sniff-o-vision seems a stretch
however :^)  )

***
>  Date:    Thu, 28 Sep 1995 18:38:32 +1300 (NDT)
>  From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
>
-c-

>
>  For myself I don't think the net would have provided many
>  people with the sort of transcendent experience we are
>  talking about. This is a bit of a drag really something
>  should definitely be done about it.

!?! Any ideas...and would you reveal why this is so for you?

-c-

>  itself that provides this but rather the people at each end.
>  Perhaps it could make it a bit more likely by linking people
>  to other people that they wouldn't have otherwise been
>  linked to, but then the emotion, I'm afraid, just a'int
>  there. Forgive me all you net worshippers but its kinda
>  true.

True for you? But, concerning emotion in this medium: we're missing kinds
of information and filling in the blanks because of it. For me the biggest
piece we don't have, is having physically met; then there would be tone of
voice, gestures, physical context, etc.

Imaginal space comes to the fore. My experience is different...there is
plenty of emotion and it is, as it is at all times, mediated by our
awareness. Tama's big bursting post was an exceptional delivery of
text-based emotion (among much more), FE. We fill in the space imaginally
with imaginal surmising STS.

In-coming! We fill in the blanks with our own emotion too, as we sit and
imagine and write our responses to each other. What we imagine about each
other is not who the other is, or is it in part? This question would come
up if we we're all sitting in a room too.

-c-

>  psychological experience of that sharing transcendent
>  feeling that could be encouraged here? One other thing comes
>  to mind.... Another most important transcendent experience
>  occurs during therapy. So yes, such things can be
>  encouraged.

Acceptance, or the warm regard a post might receive may be therapeutic.
Too: does it not for some take a bit of courage to send that initial
perhaps self-revelatory epistle into the maws of Psyber-L?
>
-c-

>  BUT how much
>  more of an experience would this be if this was
>  reciprocated; if you knew that there was a small group that
>  you felt would take your comments with much thought? How
>  transcendent?

Well, how transcendent is it when it happens elsewhere? Have you ever had a
inspired thought, or produced a meaningful work of self-expression, and
circulated it without anybody getting it and then one day one person goes
aaah haaa! Have you ever said to somebody: ^You know, you really do
understand me^. Or really understood somebody else?
>
-c-

>  creates two things...
>  a) It makes me feel a lot more nervous about posting to them
>  but on the other hand a lot more concentrated on it
>  b) It makes any sense of an immediate circle of "friends" or
>  listeners a lot more unlikely (though still possible), but
>  on the other hand the "community" thing is often stronger
>  simply because of weight of numbers (I suspect).

Now my experience is different than this. Psyber-L turns me on. It waxes
and wanes nicely...high signal to noise...a great deal of mutual respect
evident...and, don't pardon me, but: it feels like a community. Projection?
Of course!

>
>  What will hapeen to Psybernet? Where are we going? Anyway
>  "gotta go"...
>  Hope you are all having a great old time.
>
>  Miles
***

Does Psyber-L *mother* our thoughts; accepts them unthinkingly? No, not for
me. Does it nurture my thoughts? Yes, for me it does. Does it often cross
over into flaming arguement or assertion of a dominating (persona,
role-play, identity, authority, etc.) point of view? For me, it has not.

It's in synch with a parcel of my needs. You folks suffer the consequences
(respectfully) which are long rambling posts, pretentious jargonizing, an
answer or response to everything; all the evidence of my own hunger...

(My) idea of a thread over the last five weeks is: hunger for connection.
Part of a hunger for transcendence? Part of a hunger for acceptance?
Agreement? Love? Community? ? ? ?

Part of hunger for dialogue, for sharing ideas, for giving ideas, for
sharing imagination, for connecting the individual imaginal space with a
collective imaginal space?

I, for one, feel as if I'm a dancing spider here. It all is a whole
kaleidescopic yet comprehensible cloth being woven and unfolded. I dig it
tremendously.

Do *you* know me? I would guess that you know me better today than
yesterday, than five weeks ago.
And, I imagine and conjure up even a knowledge of some of *you*. Do I know
you? Really? Perhaps not but also perhaps better today than yesterday.

Am I creating a persona for all of you to consider and/or creating an
imaginal place in your awareness for me to be? (I don't have an answer to
this. I'll admit there is a persona pushing but also there is really a
hungry *me* pushing too, and harder, and with intention.)

I observe this: *transcendence* got mentioned and suddenly a flood of
responses flowed into my little world.

With energy-in-motion on this end,

Best to all.


--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

to be a man of knowledge one needs to be light and fluid. --Yaqui Mystic





From hoon@apk.net Fri Sep 29 03:35:46 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: hounds and foxes
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 11:35:46 -0400


At 9:16 PM 9/28/95, Peter Davey wrote:
-c-
>Events over the last half year have forced me to consider the possibility
>that emotional and/or intuitive links between individuals can operate over
>considerable distances. The e-mail link can be used to focus and monitor
>such phenomena.

Further ideas about this would be appreciated by this participant.

-c-
>While small focussed groups would seem to be much more productive working
>environments, commitment, focus and motivation are immensely important.
>Such a group would, I think, need a clearly stated goal and a set of simple
>ground rules. I would imagine that the work of the participants in such a
>group would be done individually, and the email connection used to share
>and examine results and observations.
>
>>
>>For me at least this writing is something I only ever get around to when
>>I am rushed and just quickly dashing through the daily influx of mail,
>>thinking constantly "gotta go soon"..... "quick dash off the point and get
>>on to the next message".
>
>So much of our mail is in exactly this mode. Topics get lost, threads
>drift, as we career through the information space like untrained hounds in
>pursuit of a long-gone fox.
>
>(Thats my two cents worth for tonight...)
>
>Peter

And the ground rules here? The mission statement is one thing...but what
happens here is sharing of ideas. What I feel is the threads come together
often and powerfully. Transcendence is mentioned and... We're here for our
own reasons and perhaps those individual promptings merge with something
collective and feedback to create something always newly re-forming.

I don't know if I'm circumstantially fortunate, or if that just dovetails
with being self-indulgent...but I am able to leave my job at home and deal
with Psyber-L and its riches without feeling hurried.

Some would reply: get a life. Which isn't necessarily off mark with
me...but, I'm having fun here; to what effect I don't know. Being an
untrained hound does match my intention which is to idea and imagine around
this place (!).

There's a penny's worth, (and I've been saving up the copper.)





--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

To search for truth, one has to be drunk with imagination.

--Leonard Bernstein





From amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu Fri Sep 29 06:40:58 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: re>single second
From: "Andrew J. McHugh" <amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 14:40:58 -0400 (EDT)


On Thu, 28 Sep 1995 hoon@apk.net wrote:

> With greater bandwidth, smart Java agents, exponential growth, real-time
> exchanges, video conferencing, etc. could it offer up an experience of
> transcendent caliber? There isn't any reason for me to think the answer is
> *no*. We'll see! and hear, and read. (Sniff-o-vision seems a stretch
> however :^)  )

    I didn't consider the extended interfaces that will be developed 
in the near future. True, once the human subject is completely integrated 
into the machine domain (Goggles, feedback-gloves, Headphones, 
thermal-feedback bodysuits, strain and stress interfaces) then the 
ability to have a transcendent experience *might* be possible. Possibly 
the entire setup could be used to plumb the depths of the users mind, 
bringing up old forgotten memories, things repressed over time - that 
might lead to a uniquely transcendent experience. 

    Although, I sometimes think that talking about all of this can 
bring up the old fear of humanity loosing itself in the sea of the 
machines. I think it's a type of frankenstein syndrome. I wonder what 
others think of this - using machines to explore the internal workings of 
your own mind...

-----
Andrew McHugh
amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu
-----




From amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu Fri Sep 29 06:52:15 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: hounds and foxes
From: "Andrew J. McHugh" <amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 14:52:15 -0400 (EDT)


On Thu, 28 Sep 1995 hoon@apk.net wrote:

> And the ground rules here? The mission statement is one thing...but what
> happens here is sharing of ideas. What I feel is the threads come together
> often and powerfully. Transcendence is mentioned and... We're here for our
> own reasons and perhaps those individual promptings merge with something
> collective and feedback to create something always newly re-forming.

    As I've seen in the past, sharing ideas is one of the most powerful 
things that a list like PSYBER-L facilitates. Imagine the total throughput 
present on this list alone, numerous users, each capable of infinite creative 
ability all working concurrently with no set goal, yet an incredible 
momentum that can carry the point of the conversation into something 
bigger and more diverse than could ever be acheived normally. Without a 
goal, without ground rules and specific questions to be answered, we 
might develop answers to questions we don't know how to ask by just 
moving ahead with whatever fancy moves all the participants in the list.

    Imagine what could be answered by proceeding in this fashion?

-----
Andrew McHugh
amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu
-----




From hoon@apk.net Fri Sep 29 15:08:56 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: single seconds
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 23:08:56 -0400



***
>  Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 14:40:58 -0400 (EDT)
>  From: "Andrew J. McHugh"
>
>  >With greater bandwidth, smart Java agents, exponential
>  growth, real-time exchanges, video conferencing, etc. could
>  it offer up an experience of transcendent caliber? There
>  isn't any reason for me to think the answer is *no*. We'll
>  see! and hear, and read. (Sniff-o-vision seems a stretch
>  however :^) )
>
>      I didn't consider the extended interfaces that will be
>  developed in the near future. True, once the human subject
>  is completely integrated into the machine domain (Goggles,
>  feedback-gloves, Headphones, thermal-feedback bodysuits,
>  strain and stress interfaces) then the ability to have a
>  transcendent experience *might* be possible. Possibly the
>  entire setup could be used to plumb the depths of the users
>  mind, bringing up old forgotten memories, things repressed
>  over time - that might lead to a uniquely transcendent
>  experience.
>
>      Although, I sometimes think that talking about all of this
>  can bring up the old fear of humanity loosing itself in the
>  sea of the machines. I think it's a type of frankenstein
>  syndrome. I wonder what others think of this - using
>  machines to explore the internal workings of your own
>  mind...
>
>  -----
>  Andrew McHugh
>  amchugh@acsu.buffalo.edu
>  -----
***

I'm going to back up to my thread. Premise: Transcendence doesn't come
about through any agency other than that of human awareness/soul/spirit and
it's incarnation in life and nature. As vehicles for contact over distance
evolve, do we more easily connect our transcendental natures?

(I do not myself feel there is in the offing a new kind of transcendence or
a technologically approached point-omega...yet...?

As for using machines to explore the inner workings of the mind? Always the
explanatory gap between mechanics and soul. The amount of courage it takes
to open oneself up to both oneself and to others won't be changed by
machines...

or will it?



--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

The mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled. --Plutarch





From ctpost@aol.com Sat Sep 30 01:29:40 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: single seconds
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:29:40 -0400


Stephen writes:

>>> The amount of courage it takes to open oneself up to both oneself and to
others won't be changed by machines...

or will it?<<<

The amount of courage may not change, but (speaking for myself) the
technology helps overcome timidity. 

Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Sat Sep 30 01:29:49 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Miles' single second
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:29:49 -0400


Peter writes:

>>>While small focussed groups would seem to be much more productive working
environments, commitment, focus and motivation are immensely important. Such
a group would, I think, need a clearly stated goal and a set of simple ground
rules. I would imagine that the work of the participants in such a group
would be done individually, and the email connection used to share
and examine results and observations.<<<

I would add this: the way I see this working is for each group member to
commit to some personal goal (e.g. to deepen their real world relationships,
or to live more conscioiusly) and for the rest to hold each other accountable
to their commitments. I believe this would affect the quality of listening
and the kind of connection people could make in this medium.

The weakness of this medium is that it makes it so easy to evade commitment
and avoid really listening.

Case in point: the people on lists who hold forth at great length, steer
discussion off in divergent directions, then abruptly unsub. 

Ron 



From ctpost@aol.com Sat Sep 30 01:29:56 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Miles' single second
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:29:56 -0400


Miles writes:

>>>BUT how much more of an experience would this be if this was 
reciprocated; if you knew that there was a small group that you felt would
take your comments with much thought? How transcendent?<<<

This, for some, is the lure of the net. Overcomng barriers of isolation. It
was for me. But I have found that social conditions on the net replicate
those that prevail in RL. Relationships are tenuous, and there is the same
flight from intimacy, made easier by the fact that in a digital world you can
disappear without a trace.

>>>For me at least this writing is something I only ever get around to when I
am rushed and just quickly dashing through the daily influx of mail, thinking
constantly "gotta go soon"..... "quick dash off the point and get on to the
next message".<<<

I am also rushed. I invariably have to steal time from something else (work,
wife, sleep, writing, chores, etc.) to read and answer email. So there is an
element of guilt mixed up with this, too. 

Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Sat Sep 30 01:30:02 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Kinds of Power
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:30:02 -0400


Jean writes:

>>>The libido in harassment is centered on power, not sex.<<<

There is an elegance in this idea, especially the way you express it, but
there still is the need to determine when someone's libido is on or off
center. Who decides this? And I'm not sure one has anything but a lukewarm
kind of sex if it doesn't exercise some kind of power. 

Ron



From dsbond@aol.com Sat Sep 30 01:47:16 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Minds and Machines
From: dsbond@aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:47:16 -0400


Hello folks. I'm Steve Bond and I've been an active lurker on this list for
months. I've been pretty active with the goings on in the Aion list. Thanks
to Walter, by the way, for providing the environment for ideas here at
psybernet.

Stephen wrote: "As for using machines to explore the inner workings of the
mind? Always the
explanatory gap between mechanics and soul. The amount of courage it takes
to open oneself up to both oneself and to others won't be changed by
machines...

or will it?"

What if psyche expresses itself through engineering no less so than through
myth? In fact, historically, the technical genius of culture is often
thoroughly employed in realizing a mythological worldview through its
articfacts--e.g. all the back to the very first cities, building, temples,
etc. of Sumer, right down through Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome, etc.

What if in the same way that whatever psychological development (or
regression) produced the need for a realization of the inner workings of the
psyche as expressed in a psychological system (analytical psychology, for
instance), are also in one way or another symbolically expressed in the
computer and computer culture?

What if the fear of technology is some form of psychological reaction to the
ego's conscious attempt to build a model of psyche, it's own ground? and that
is only a modern expression of image of the "tower of Babel," the idea that
God does not take kindly to technology that reaches almost to God?

I don't pretend to know.

Steve Bond



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Sun Oct 01 13:47:28 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Miles' single second
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 13:47:28 +1300 (NDT)




On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, Walter Logeman wrote:

> 
> Miles Wrote:
> >Perhaps it could make it a bit more likely by linking
> >people to other people that they wouldn't have otherwise been linked to,
> >but then the emotion, I'm afraid, just a'int there.
> 
> But have we gone DEEP enough to find it?  I feel all the time
> here -- and I have felt a lot, believe me, there were some major
> crisis here in the birth of this system, you may recall some of
> that from the periphery Miles.  I know what you mean though -- my
> primary relationships are flesh and blood ones.  For all that,
> lets not compare such different things and pursue what we find
> here.


Have we gone deep enough??? Or do we need more technology?



 hoon@apk.net wrote...
>
>  >With greater bandwidth, smart Java agents, exponential
>  growth, real-time exchanges, video conferencing, etc. could
>  it offer up an experience of transcendent caliber? There
>  isn't any reason for me to think the answer is *no*. We'll
>  see! and hear, and read. (Sniff-o-vision seems a stretch
>  however :^) )


Stephen Calhoun replied...

>I'm going to back up to my thread. Premise: Transcendence doesn't come
>about through any agency other than that of human awareness/soul/spirit and
>it's incarnation in life and nature. As vehicles for contact over distance
>evolve, do we more easily connect our transcendental natures?
>(I do not myself feel there is in the offing a new kind of transcendence or
>a technologically approached point-omega...yet...?
> The amount of courage it takes
> to open oneself up to both oneself and to others won't be changed by
> machines...
>                   or will it?


Ron...

>The amount of courage may not change, but (speaking for myself) the
>technology helps overcome timidity. 

I'm gonna back up a bit from what I said too. I think there is emotion in 
this medium. Here. Now. Is there not a bit of a thrill to have posted and 
more importantly to recieve a reply that says "thanks for that 
contribution!" Well for me there sure is. In the last few days I have 
been most excited by the many directions of this thread, but have had to 
be a lurker for time reasons. It seems unfortunate, I feel almost the 
opposite way to Walters dream... as if there are ten people who I want to 
give a personal reply to right now, who are gathered around me ( and 
paradoxically - I guess this is the thing about the net- all gathered 
close around each other person too) 
But I haven't got time...Arrrrggghhhh!!!!

I feel that the technology is a definite side issue 
to what I really thirst for in this area. The emotion could come if we go 
deeper into this medium. But deeper is perhaps the wrong word. I identify 
with your identification of looking closer, as even the smallest leaf 
can be a truly enlightening experience. 
On the other hand new technology plays a very significant part. this is 
the fundamental background to the whole discussion of the net 
that is the conversation that we are having.
It was great to see a new face enter the conversation as Steve wrote...

> What if the fear of technology is some form of psychological reaction 
> to the
> ego's conscious attempt to build a model of psyche, it's own ground? and 
> that
> is only a modern expression of image of the "tower of Babel," the idea that
> God does not take kindly to technology that reaches almost to God?


But isn't it awfully strange/funny that some of us are being archetyped 
as Luddites by others of us... We are all super high tech by some 
definitions. 


Arrrgggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! Go gotta gotta go. Sorry to be so abrupt and 
not reply to your great posts everyone.





From ctpost@aol.com Sun Oct 01 14:18:46 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: difference
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 21:18:46 -0400


Stephen:

Belated thx for your comments on Bateson. An email friend who claims to have
known Bateson once sent me this comment as a way of introducing me to him:

>>>Gregory Bateson used to talk about an institutionalized schizophrenic with
whom he worked while he was trying to sort out the internal logic of
schizophrenic communication via communication theory. This man once told him,
"If things aren't the way I say, I'll prove it."<<<

I assume the patient was saying he could prove he was right even if he was
wrong. And if that attitude qualifies you for schizophrenia, then the world
is full of them.

thx
Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Sun Oct 01 14:18:53 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: hounds and foxes
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 21:18:53 -0400


Stephen writes:

>>>Some would reply: get a life. Which isn't necessarily off mark with
me...but, I'm having fun here; to what effect I don't know. Being an
untrained hound does match my intention which is to idea and imagine around
this place (!).<<<

Andrew writes:

>>>Without a goal, without ground rules and specific questions to be
answered, we might develop answers to questions we don't know how to ask by
just moving ahead with whatever fancy moves all the participants in the list.
Imagine what could be answered by proceeding in this fashion?<<<


By way of reply, here's something from *Living Without a Goal* by James
Ogilvy (Doubleday, 1994): 

***As I approach the paradox of useful uselessness -- or the goal of
Goallessness -- I have the sorry sense of trying to explain a joke. Putting
play to work gets as tricky as working at play. Beware the forced joviality
of the company picnic. There is something sad about people who insist on the
usefulness of play. They bring to their play the rigor and regimentation they
need in their work. You see them in sweat clubs clenching Nautilus machines.
But the useful tedium of exercise is the very opposite of the useless,
playful passion at the heart of freedom...

It would be foolish to purge ourselves of the entire vocabulary of
goal-directed action. But the preoccupations of the industrial era -- with
technique and technology, with utility, productivity and efficiency -- are
not the most appropriate preoccupations for steering an entire life,
especially when more and more of that life is lived in the symbolic economy
of the information era.***

And I'd say in addition that it could be *useful* to pay attention to what is
happening and maybe get an insight into *the way it works* when what we're
doing is left to proceed unhindered by goals.

thx
Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Sun Oct 01 14:18:59 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: re>single second
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 21:18:59 -0400


Stephen:

I got a lot from the following, and it touched off some connections for me:

>>>True for you? But, concerning emotion in this medium: we're missing kinds
of information and filling in the blanks because of it. For me the biggest
piece we don't have, is having physically met; then there would be tone of
voice, gestures, physical context, etc.<<<

McLuhan used to talk about hot and cool media. The cooler the medium, the
more blanks there are to fill. The more blanks to fill, the higher our level
of involvement. So much so that I'm beginning to care less and less that I
have never met the rest of you on this list. In fact, I'm afraid that given
the chance to meet you I would have the same reluctance that I have seeing a
movie made from a novel I've read. It almost never lives up to my own
imagination.

>>>Psyber-L turns me on. It waxes and wanes nicely...high signal to
noise...<<<

High signal to noise is nothing to sneeze at, and believe me I do not take it
for granted. Is it only because of the content? Or is it something about *the
way it works*? The Tao of Psybernet.

>>>Do *you* know me?<<<

I am fascinated by how this question keeps coming up. It must have been
around from the beginning of the net. Or from the start of the computer age?
When I read/listen to the futurists on the subject of computer technology,
they frequently evoke this image of the personal computer that will *know* us
better than we know ourselves. Adam in the Garden, creating his own perfect
companion. Is the Information Age really about the desire to Be Known?

>>>I'll admit there is a persona pushing but also there is really a hungry
*me* pushing too, and harder, and with intention.<<<

Hungry for? 


thx (this is a trip),
Ron



From hoon@apk.net Sun Oct 01 17:01:59 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psybernet small groups
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 00:01:59 -0400


***
>  Date:    Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:53:51 GMT
>  From: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz> Sender:

>  Subject: Psybernet Small Groups

-c-
>  Peter responded:
>  >Such a group would, I think, need a clearly stated goal and
>  a set of simple ground rules.
>
>  Great to see this discussion come up. This is one I want to
>  really go with for a bit. I am planning to run just such
>  small focussed groups on the Internet -- I think this is
>  really the core of Psybernet, and one of the great
>  potentials for psychological experience here. There are a
>  lot of things that we have learnt in the three years this
>  project has been running.

Walter...I'm thinking of your dream, again!
>
-c-
>
>  Fees
-c-
>  The fee is important for another reason too: As with
>  psychotherapy it is part of the commitment -- and thus one
>  of the cornerstones of the temenos.

BTW, a client once thought to anticipate my fee request by saying to me ^oh
yes, no pain no gain; this payment will help me focus my commitment.^

I replied: If you wish. Actually, for me it is a payment for my time and is
necessary as a recognition of my having to make a living...and in fact, I
add in all my expertise and experience for free.

He remained very focused...but without as much pain!

>
>  What can we expect from such groups? Are they feasible? The
>  first step in exploring this will be a group called == Here
>  and Now == that will be starting next year and that I will
>  explain in my talk and on the tape.
>
>  Looking forward to comment,
>
>
>  Walter.
>
>

How do you see the issues of collaboration and relationship and initiation
and implementation working together?  ;)

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

Truth cannot be fully caught in a finite net. --Godel





From hoon@apk.net Sun Oct 01 17:06:23 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: hounds and foxes
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 00:06:23 -0400


>  From: Walter Logeman <walterl@chch.planet.co.nz> Sender:

>        Subject: hounds and foxes
>
-c-
>
>  The list has a life of its own!
>
-c-
>  life to flourish, it is one factor in the temenos. It is
>  almost transcendent to watch that life take off. One reason
>  I hate the traditional term "list-owner" -- the phrase from
>  Gibran comes to mind "your children are not your Children"
>  ie they only come through you -- some things canAt be owned.
-c-
>  culture seems to hold the thing together. As busy as I am of
>  late I still glance at it -- and have about 1000 messages
>  sitting in the Future Culture folder, it has been a good
>  place to learn for me -- especially while the Psybernet
>  stuff was slow.

FYI...I have grown accustomed with the flow from Psyber-L and am also
learning to recognize how my own posting habits need to evolve. I've noted
I'm fortunate enough to be able to devote a great deal of energy to the
threads...almost all of which interest me. The upshot is: I can't imagine
having to divide this kind of attention.

(And USENET is overwhelming but I lurk anyway.)

However, I wonder what kind of project or *intramediating* might be
accomplished in a small group in Psyberspace? (I'm thinking more in terms
of prospective goals rather than a framework.
>
>

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

hy sometimes I've belived as many as six impossible things
before breakfast! ---The Queen in Through the Looking Glass 





From walter@link.southern.co.nz Sun Oct 01 22:50:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: ugly net email spam info (forwarded)
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.southern.co.nz>
Date: Sun, 01 Oct 1995 21:50:00

-=> Note:
Forward from Future Culture by Walter Logeman
Originally from coco@GOLD.MV.NET
Original dated: Oct 01 '95, 17:51

I am forewarding this as I have had this stuff arrive in my mail and I know
others have.

Walter


Sender: Future Culture <FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>
From: "Christina Siun O'Connell" <coco@GOLD.MV.NET>
Subject:      ugly net email spam info
To: Multiple recipients of list FUTUREC <FUTUREC@UAFSYSB.UARK.EDU>

not sure if folks are already aware so...

There's a massive email spam being carried out apparently by the neo-Nazis -
the message arives from "crusader@natvan.com" (this may change of course) and
is titled "The Long March" - the message itself is over 23kb of standard nazi
garbage with pointers to various net and radio nazi outposts.

Folks are discussing this in news.admin.net-abuse.misc on USENET but there is
a concurrent wave of forged cancels being used to try to squealch the
discussion (just like the scientologists). Addresses that have been mailed
this offensive spam have apparently been pretty randomly culled from both
usenet posts and email lists (including some closed lists).

For more info, head to news.admin.net-abuse.misc ... and if you  receive the
spam, try to keep a copy of the full headers to pass along to the folks trying
to track down the creeps behind this ...

...C

C H R I S T I N A  S I U N  O ' C O N N E L L   | HTMARCOM Steering Committee
                                                |
tell all the truth but tell it slant            |
success in circuit lies - Emily Dickinson       | coco@gold.mv.net

--- xMail 1.00

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Mon Oct 02 23:07:27 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psybernet Small Groups
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 23:07:27 +1300 (NDT)


On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, Walter Logeman wrote:

> Miles wrote:
> > >It seems that some would like to share all their feelings to the whole
> > >world.
> Peter responded:
> > Such a group would, I think, need a clearly stated goal and a set of simple
> > ground rules. 

Ok so now I'm gonna do this great parsing thing, hope don't mind Walter...

> Great discussion
> planning 
> focussed groups
> great potentials for psychological experience

> a lot of things that we have learnt..
 (like this!!!!)

So heres a short little list of what weall need,
> 
> Technical ease. 

 - too right. in my last post I wrote, "I would love to quote some other
people but I can't because of my silly program" but then I thought, hey
I've got windows, I can cut and post from Xterm to Xterm, I can Do it! So
I did. And that part of my post was erased (until now). (I think it is 
this Get up and Go attitude we all need more of rant rant rant...
But seriously, I think that a part of this technical issue, is a 
"technique" issue. This extends from the ability to wring the most
out of the programs we use, to knowing what we want to achieve.
 eg. the ideal way to parse would be to be able to run through with the mouse
and highlight words you want - and have them all fall out... but hey
you can do it any old way and the most important thing is to know that 
you want to do it... What else can we all do?




> Group Formation

> lurking
> until 
> located

Lurking until the group locates the people or the people locate the 
group???

> --but
> small focussed groups
> clearly defined boundaries
> requires more

> need
> _intentional_ procedures 

or a sudden unanimous desire...



> Facilitation

> size 
> time 
> "prime directive"
> warm-up, 
> the "holding space " 
>  Establishing and
>  maintaining 
>  requires skilled facilitation. 
> intervene 



> Learning and training

> Psybernet 
> exploring
> uncovering difficulties
> and discussing 
> Coming up with
> procedures, policy and ethos is still a major task.


> Promotion.
> a talk on Psybernet, using the WWW pages
Wahaay!! Sounds fantastic. How can you be so coy and humble, sort of 
slipping it in edge ways about it?
A date for us to look for it? can I be the first to hear your speech?

> Fees
> deeper than newsgroups 
> will require 
> commitment 
> charge for
> participation.

>  NOT for lists
>  -- there is a tradition 

> Psychological Groups, 
> facilitated 
> formed using 
> selection etc
> which have a time structure 
> should be sufficiently attractive and
> different to be able to sustain a fee.

Yeah I think so.
 
> fee
> for another reason...
> commitment -- and thus one of the
> cornerstones of the temenos.

What you say is very true, if perhaps a little unpopular as a viewpoint
on the net at the mo. (here i go defining the culture even as I try to 
examine it but hey, there aint no f**king mass media to do it for me)
But its not just my own tremenos that needs a fee, I want to see a fee so 
that I know that the other people are commited to *me*,
(although its funny, because the paying itself helps make it worth paying for
and the investment collection analogy is not far off I suppose)
But also i would need to know that  the facilitator has a reason to be 
there for me, otherwise I would feel the need to try and *be* the 
facilitator back or something, while I need the support and stuff whatever 
that only a trained person can do... 

So I can see the truth in what you are saying. I think that (for
all the reasons, a fee is a total gota. BUt on the other hand, the free 
internet thing is SO cool that, *maybe* there is some way it could be
worked? Please everyone, it was my intention to sound supportive here, 
since within the internet environment I know the mention of fees is generally
met with criticism and I think that fees *do* make sense, but, perhaps...
What about some sort of compulsory donation... (naaah) or maybe UM I 
dunno, what is the *point* of the free internet ethos. I think that as with
many things there is an initial set of ideals that can be maintained only 
as long as realistic, but I also see an analogy to the old, "back when 
Greenpeace was small they stuck to their ideals but now there getting
all big old powerful and corrupted it all starts to go out the window" thing
(incidentally about Greenpeace... it is none of the above still works on
a tiny budget and the whole point is that it is trying to be powerful so to
criticise for that itself is totally ridiculous and all the things they 
do are totally fantastic BUT you see what I mean I hope)
its just that if the internet was *free* for all time, it would have 
certain effects that would be both good and bad, limiting and empowering,
but that when you think about it the good would probably outway the bad, 
and the whole point of an *ethos* is that you stick to it even when it 
doesn't make whole caboodle of sense for the sake of preserving the 
*ethos* but then the free internet ethos is hardly and ethos anyway, and most
free things are just people and companies paying for it now so they can get
a foot in and start to rake it in big time when it *really* starts to pay
(like Sun for example)..
I guess this isn't the best place for this discussion. Does anybody know 
whereabouts on the net people have talked (probably at length and in some
depth) about this free issue. It would be fantastic if someone could find 
some of these posts and quote them here (freedom of info is a good one 
too). I think that in the end some sort of fee structure would be 
appropriate but we did (did we?) all have the idea that we could develop the 
direction for this small group whatever stuff as a group thing... What is 
the best way to do it.
One day I want to make my money on the net, through "publishing" 
some sort of book-media-game-connection stuff. I *thought* at first that 
I would have to do it the traditional way and *sell* CDROM's (say) to a 
publisher but then I realised that the net itself would get my overheads 
down so low that if I could somehow get around 5-6 cents per "reader" as 
a side issue, perhaps voluntary, some other sort of cost, I would be 
making around the same amount of money - assuming that is that my 
distribution costs were *zero* on account of the internet being *free*. 
I don't think that is relevant to what is being talked about here, but 
what is? 
The suggested solution of a grant is I guess a bit unfeasible, (FOR NOW).

How about setting up a grant from all of us to the facilitator(s), so that
when there was enough money to run a group a group would be run, but that 
it would be sort of seperated from the actual process so as to
help preserve the ethic.

(some may think I'm just trying to get out of this cheap :) !!! But I'm 
 honestly not)
I dunno...
Maybe I'll go do some reading, BUT I REALLY SHOULD BE WORKING so see you 
all later.


Incidentally this is the only list I get. I keep thinking that
other things could be relevant and exciting too (I keep thinking that 
they might be even more so), but for the moment, this little pond takes up 
just about enough time, so thats about all I get email wise.

> What can we expect from such groups?  Are they feasible?  The
> first step in exploring this will be a group called  == Here and
> Now == that will be starting next year and that I will explain in
> my talk and on the tape.  
I am *looking forward* to it
 
> Looking forward to comment,
> Walter.



See you all later, and thanks Walter for being so commited to this 
project and to having made it so successful already. 

(hope I can be equally successful in my exams which are in two weeks 
ARRGGGHHHHH!!!!!)
 Bye!

Miles

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/ To err is human to really fuck things up takes a computer        /
/                                          -bad joke #256          /
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////




From ctpost@aol.com Fri Oct 06 02:56:51 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: kinds of power
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:56:51 -0400


Walter writes,

>>>Hmm,  perhaps we are just talking past each other here -- I have
been relating thinking of love and Eros in harmony.  You seem to
be speaking of love and sex as being at odds.   Confusing stuff.<<<

For love and eros to be in harmony, don't you need the love object to be the
same as the object of erotic desire? And isn't there conflict when:
> the object of one's philia doesn't want to be an object of one's desire
too?
> the object of one's desire wants to be the ONLY object of one's desire?
> the object of agape wants to be desired instead?
Just to pick 3 examples that leap to mind.

Ron
 



From hoon@apk.net Fri Oct 06 03:12:52 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: intro:Quantum Community
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:12:52 -0400




Here's a handful of short excerpts from Danah Zohar and Ian Marshall's ^The
Quantum Society^.

It's a provocative book although it's central metaphor *wave/particle*,
used as an analogy for consciousness, is extended into an explanation that
can't possibly leap the gap. It has more power as a metaphor enriching the
distinction between discrete self-awareness and fused other-awareness and
the book argues cogently in describing how individuality becomes relational
through social processes.

And, it's not as obvious as my description although it's equally jargonized!

I'll post as four new threads and wait for something to happen! :^)

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

I am prejudiced in favor of him who, without impudence, can ask boldly. He
has faith in humanity, and faith in himself. No one who is not accustomed
to giving grandly can ask nobly and with boldness. --Johann Kaspar Lavater





From hoon@apk.net Fri Oct 06 03:17:10 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Saving the world
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:17:10 -0400


-*-

re: from The Quantum Society by Zohar and Marshall

Perhaps the "Second Coming" for which so many people have waited is nothing
esle but this -the realization that we are that "coming." We are the
messiah. The job of transformation and saving the world is down to us.

---Does the world need to be saved?

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

Neccesity is the mother of invention, it is true -- but it's father is
creativity, and knowledge is the midwife. --Jonathan Schattke





From hoon@apk.net Fri Oct 06 03:18:27 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Public & Private
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:18:27 -0400


re: from the Quantum Society by Zohar and Marshall

-*-

But this kind of rule-bound neutrality means that most of my life is
outside the concern of the system -my hopes, my dreams, my fears, my
passions, my idiosyncratic ways, the things that I value, the customs,
traditions, and relationships that have meaning for me. In a rational
bureacratic ystem I can find none of these things reflected. The result is
not, as intended, that I am free to pursue these personal meanings in
private. Rather I am, in the whole public dimension of my life, robbed of
these meanings.

---Where in the public dimension -for you- is meaning still alive?

-*-

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's
mind there are few. --Shunryu Suzuki





From hoon@apk.net Fri Oct 06 03:19:32 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Common Scores
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:19:32 -0400


-*-

re: from The Quantum Society by Zohar and Marshall

In advesarial debate I always see the other as *other*, as my opponent. I
set out to defend myself against him or to best him. I "win" or "lose" a
debate. In dialogue the other is my partner or fellow explorer ina mutually
creative enterprise of discovery. "in dialogue," as David Bohm says,
"everybody wins." Together we win through to a new, mutually welcomed
position. In debate we are like boxers throwing our best punches and hoping
the other hits the canvas. In dialogue we are like dancers exploring (and
creatively discovering) our common score.

---Is win/win a realistic objective?

-*-

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

Inspiration could be called inhaling the memory of an act never experienced.

--Ned Rorem





From hoon@apk.net Fri Oct 06 03:20:51 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Radical Family
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:20:51 -0400


-*-

re: from The quantum Society by Zohar and Marshall

I believe that the postmodern society needs the family, but it needs a
radically new style of family life to be the building block and the
training ground of the new society we are creating. It needs a family that
is founded on the kind of committed intimate relationship that puts
participants in touch with their potential selves, with their areas of
potential growth. As we have seen, this kind of relationship (where we not
only seek but our willing to meet our *other half*) calls upon us to
confront difficult issues, to face pain and uncertainty and the unknown. It
is not "comfortable" or "safe," but can be creative.


---what kind of community would *you* create?

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

The only joy in the world is to begin. --Cesare Pavese





From walter@link.southern.co.nz Fri Oct 06 04:00:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psybernet Small Groups
From: Walter Logeman <walter@link.southern.co.nz>
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 1995 03:00:00

Hi Sue,

wa>The people who knew how to read mail offline etc, were not
wa>interested in they psychological stuff (or perhaps I could not
wa>interest them).

ST> Gee, Walter, I was.

Most definitely!  With the move to the Internet many more people have joined
-- 60 or so in this Conference.

Good to see you back.  You been reading all this time? 


Walter

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Oct 07 00:43:17 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Public & Private
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 1995 11:43:17 GMT


On Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:18:27 -0400, hoon@apk.net wrote:

> 
> re: from the Quantum Society by Zohar and Marshall

<snip>

> bureaucratic system I can find none of these things reflected. The result is
> not, as intended, that I am free to pursue these personal meanings in
> private. Rather I am, in the whole public dimension of my life, robbed of
> these meanings.
> 
> ---Where in the public dimension -for you- is meaning still alive?

In these _public_ lists.  Honestly, that is about it!  Perhaps
that is why I have been so reluctant in setting up more closed
and private groups -- there is something satisfying about having
something _public_ and meaningful.


Walter.


 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Oct 07 01:09:21 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
Subject: Re: Radical Family
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 1995 12:09:21 GMT


On Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:20:51 -0400, hoon@apk.net wrote:

> re: from The quantum Society by Zohar and Marshall

> I believe that the postmodern society needs the family, 

<snip>

> ---what kind of community would *you* create?

I recall being at the Psychodrama Conference in Melbourne in
1991?  It was the beginning of the ending of my relationship with
psychodrama.  One of the controversies at the Conference was is
this a Family!  For many of the people it was.  It was their
family.  It was mine!  But for about half of the 100 or so people
there this was anathema.  This is not a family it is a
_professional_ association.  

I was just thrown into turmoil by the discussion.  I wanted
family, but could see that the professional association faction
was right.  I see it much more clearly now -- to see such a group
as family is simply a transference.  One that had not been faced
up to in the training process for psychodrama directors.  

Community might have been a better way of seeing the gathering --
but Association is what it actually is.  

I have a hunch that Family that is spoke of by Zohar and Marshall
is family, not community.  The family they speak of sounds great,
and really not that far removed from the family I am in.  I feel
I am just lucky to have it -- it is not something that we can
consciously create -- though we always seem to try.

As far as community goes, perhaps it also just happens, or not
around projects.  As it happens I am the Chairperson at the
moment of an organisation called Community Assistance
Incorporated -- which is the legal body for Chippenham Community
-- it is a long story -- it is a commune I was a founder of in
1970.  There is in fact very little community happening around
that project -- no more than other projects, that is the point I
am making -- an intentional community is probably the worst way
to build a community!  

its late . . . 

all for now 


Walter.


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From ctpost@aol.com Sun Oct 08 03:10:35 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Miles' single second
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 10:10:35 -0400


Walter writes:

>>> We used to chat in RL
and then say things like:  I'll write about this to you in the
group! -- and go off to our rooms to write!  I recall saying
"Shut up, I am trying to write to you!"  The written word opens a
dimension of our imaginal capacity that ordinary conversation
does not<<<

This is not true for everyone. A good friend who spent many an hour with me
in person and on the phone, when he moved out of state, turned out to be
unable to communicate in writing except on the most elementary level.
Talking, we had incredible, rich conversations, often deeply spiritual and
also full of humor. It amazed me that the persona and presence of someone so
verbally gifted could vanish on the page. I was deeply saddened by this loss,
for we have completely lost touch with each other.

I am more like you, as you describe yourself above. I tend to prefer this
email medium to actual conversation, which relies on a very different set of
ground rules. The whole turn-taking protocol is utterly different, for one
thing. I think the email conventions of intercutting someone else's snippets
of post with comments of one's own is an interesting approximation of
dialogue, but nothing at all like real dialogue, since you get to freely edit
what the other person has said.

What we write here tends more toward long monologues. Yet I notice that
people's styles vary widely from something like actual speech to something
very writerly. I tend more toward the latter.

I don't know what it seems like to you, but in fact I often heavily edit what
I post, revising, condensing, deleting, getting it down to fewer words, with
fewer digressions and ambiguities. I don't like posting something that isn't
as clear as I can make it. I already feel that I've monologued on at too
great a length and will stop here.

Ron







From ctpost@aol.com Sun Oct 08 03:10:40 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: hounds and foxes
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 10:10:40 -0400


Walter wrote of Ogilvy: 

>>>I don't quite understand that -- is goal orientation more
pernicious in the post industrial or information (whatever) age
than in the industrial one?<<<  

I can't speak for Ogilvy, but a potentially pernicious aspect of the
information age is our increasing ability, with the right tools, to search
through vast amounts of information using precisely predetermined parameters,
thereby reducing the element of chance in discovering what is often of
considerable significance -- what we weren't looking for. Goalless surfing
comes to the rescue, of course, but is surfing here to stay? I wonder.

thx
ron 



From ctpost@aol.com Sun Oct 08 06:51:12 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Public & Private
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 13:51:12 -0400


Walter writes:

>>>In these _public_ lists.  Honestly, that is about it!  Perhaps
that is why I have been so reluctant in setting up more closed
and private groups -- there is something satisfying about having
something _public_ and meaningful.<<<

I don't think of this as a public list so much as *open to the public*. Like
a little hall down a long, winding, little-traveled country road -- far from
the city and the public square where crowds gather and everything happens
before a large number of onlookers. 

We're not at the edge of the universe, but you can see it from here.

Ron 



From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Sun Oct 08 15:51:26 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Saving the world
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 15:51:26 +1300 (NDT)




On Thu, 5 Oct 1995 hoon@apk.net wrote:

> -*-
> 
> re: from The Quantum Society by Zohar and Marshall
> 
> Perhaps the "Second Coming" for which so many people have waited is nothing
> esle but this -the realization that we are that "coming." We are the
> messiah. The job of transformation and saving the world is down to us.
> 
> ---Does the world need to be saved?

Perhaps it is their slowly burgeoning realisation that *I* am the 
messiah, and that *I* will save the world (regardless of wether it needs 
saving). 




From waerwolf@lava.net Mon Oct 09 07:11:18 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: unsubscribe
From: WaerWolf <waerwolf@lava.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 1995 08:11:18 -1000


unsubscribe



                                        <WW>




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 09 16:37:07 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Description of this List. 
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 03:37:07 GMT

Miles,

> I distinctly remember (now) that last night/this morning, I dreamt about 
> Walters post describing this list. In the dream the description was 
> fantastic, and many threaded, 

I expect the one I posted was only a pale imitation!  Any
suggestions on it would be welcome. 

The dream does sound like experience of Psybernet, and its
significance for you.  

I like the way you indented this incidental!  Exemplifying the
left -- right nature of the Description in the dream.  

>    Incidentally, you should all try that as an experience, put the radio 
>    alarm clock on some news station like National radio and turn it down 
>    just low enough so that it won't wake you straight away. I've been having 
>    the most freaky dreams all about stuff thats going on (like I dreamed I 
>    was In Tahiti at a big dinner on the day that Tahiti was in the news)

There is a post on _Aion_ which is somewhat synchronistic --
noting that dreams mentioned there relate to TV programmes from
the night before!  Perhaps these things seep through the hard
disk from one group to the other, and then into your sleep?

> I certainly feel linked to this list as I walk around my daily life. Just 
> at the moment, I have been feeling really guilty because I feel like I 
> killed off discussion of private groups by suggesting that they 
> should be free or something like that... 

I have been thinking I killed the discussion!  I did not think
you said they should be free . . . I thought you made an
excellent point, and I quote from the your Small Group post:

> But its not just my own tremenos that needs a fee, I want to see a 
> fee so that I know that the other people are commited to *me*,

I enjoyed your whole post on that topic and I am wondering why I
did not reply sooner ???  I think it is because I _fear_ to speak
of money on the net!  I wish I didn't!  Another guilt?

> But I guess that is all 
> up to you lot really so maybe I'll give the guilts a miss.

What is all up to us lot?  Whatever giving guilts the miss is a
good idea -- worth noticing that guilt is here -- and may be an
important thing to notice -- It is easy to feel on the net and I
feel it often in this group!  Somehow as if I am doing a bad
thing!  I have this feeling at times. . . .

> See ya


and you,


Walter.






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From ctpost@aol.com Tue Oct 10 01:21:13 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Saving the world
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 08:21:13 -0400


Miles writes:

>>>Perhaps it is their slowly burgeoning realisation that *I* am the messiah,
and that *I* will save the world (regardless of wether it needs saving).<<<

This sounds a bit egoistic to me. (As does Stephen's initial quote on this
thread.) *I* in the name of progress and scientific materialism have been
making mighty efforts to save the world for quite some time. And what do we
have? A dying planet. 

Maybe room needs to be made for Shadow in this formula. Anima, too? Self?
Messiah and anti-messiah? 

Ron





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Tue Oct 10 12:47:43 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Description of this List. (Includes unsub info)
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:47:43 +1300 (NDT)



I thought that this was sufficiently weird that maybe I shuold tell all 
you folks...

I distinctly remember (now) that last night/this morning, I dreamt about 
Walters post describing this list. In the dream the description was 
fantastic, and many threaded, I remember the sensation of having to steer 
my way down the text, as it was on the left, on the right, sort of all 
over the place like seaweed, and yet all linked up. Maybe my dream was 
actually about my experience with Psybernet, which as time goes on is 
becoming more significant (or I dunno... psychologically significant to 
me in a real life way or something). Or maybe I was in fact linked to the 
net even as I slept, somehow cognizcant of what was being put there, in 
the same way I am somehow cognizcant of the news for the hour or so that 
it takes my radio alarm clock to wake me up.

   Incidentally, you should all try that as an experience, put the radio 
   alarm clock on some news station like National radio and turn it down 
   just low enough so that it won't wake you straight away. I've been having 
   the most freaky dreams all about stuff thats going on (like I dreamed I 
   was In Tahiti at a big dinner on the day that Tahiti was in the news)

I certainly feel linked to this list as I walk around my daily life. Just 
at the moment, I have been feeling really guilty because I feel like I 
killed off discussion of private groups by suggesting that they 
should be free or something like that... But I guess that is all 
up to you lot really so maybe I'll give the guilts a miss.

See ya
Miles





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Tue Oct 10 12:52:24 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: hounds and foxes
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:52:24 +1300 (NDT)



Hi again!

Ron wrote...
> I can't speak for Ogilvy, but a potentially pernicious aspect of the
> information age is our increasing ability, with the right tools, to search
> through vast amounts of information using precisely predetermined parameters,
> thereby reducing the element of chance in discovering what is often of
> considerable significance -- what we weren't looking for. Goalless surfing
> comes to the rescue, of course, but is surfing here to stay? I wonder.
> 
> thx
> ron 
> 
I think computers are getting a bit of a bum rap when it comes to 
playfulness. In a way computers are fundamentally playful things, look at 
how much of worldwide computer time is devoted to playing computer games 
or making pictures for example. My experience is that I quite often make 
an unexpected connection through the use of a computer. Like when i'm 
looking up the online help to find a particular command and I see another 
just beneath it, or on usenet for example where you would be quite likely 
to have to scroll through a list of normally unseen groups but one might 
just take your fancy that day, or perhaps you hit the wrong key and all 
of a sudden your right in the middle of a huge discussion about something 
else entirely... Well I dunno....
See ya...
Miles





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Wed Oct 11 00:27:44 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Description of this List.
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:27:44 +1300 (NDT)



:)        :(       :)      :(       :)     :(      :)


> > I distinctly remember (now) that last night/this morning, I dreamt about 
> > Walters post describing this list. In the dream the description was 
> > fantastic, and many threaded, 
> 
> I expect the one I posted was only a pale imitation!  Any
> suggestions on it would be welcome. 
This is kinda true, but then comparing with the fantasy of dream, which 
is all description and no substance is a pretty hard competition. 
Inspiration, perhaps, but I find it hard to communicate. I guess that as 
time goes on the whole thing will become more fantastic though... Purple 
prosating it provides little, but a crazy reality could only be described 
by something of like nature i guess. Excuse me I rambling...

<cut>

> > I certainly feel linked to this list as I walk around my daily life. Just 
> > at the moment, I have been feeling really guilty because I feel like I 
> > killed off discussion of private groups by suggesting that they 
> > should be free or something like that... 
> 
> I have been thinking I killed the discussion!  I did not think
> you said they should be free . . . I thought you made an
> excellent point, and I quote from the your Small Group post:

Thats right, I didn't say they should be free. For some reason I 
felt that people might take it the wrong way. Thinking about it since 
then, I can't really see much value in any other way of doing it, because 
most of the value for this particular application comes from what we 
discussed, ie that the fee would be a part of the tremenos etc etc. 
Basically it provides a link to the RL otherwise its all a bit too up in 
the air and sort of unreal. 

> 
> > But its not just my own tremenos that needs a fee, I want to see a 
> > fee so that I know that the other people are commited to *me*,
> 
> I enjoyed your whole post on that topic and I am wondering why I
> did not reply sooner ???  I think it is because I _fear_ to speak
> of money on the net!  I wish I didn't!  Another guilt?

> > But I guess that is all 
> > up to you lot really so maybe I'll give the guilts a miss.
> 
> What is all up to us lot?  Whatever giving guilts the miss is a
> good idea -- worth noticing that guilt is here -- and may be an
> important thing to notice -- It is easy to feel on the net and I
> feel it often in this group!  Somehow as if I am doing a bad
> thing!  I have this feeling at times. . . .
I meant that it was up to everyone reading this list wether I had killed 
the discussion off, if I feel guilt it implies some sort of control over 
everyone which is happily vacant from this circumstance.


The *absolute best thing about the net* is that I don't have to feel 
guilt for ranting on. In normal conversation I have to control my natural 
inclination to be highly talkative about the whole thing, but here... 
Well Its up to you lot wether you want to read my stuff. Read a couple of 
posts and you can ignore me if you like... or even better completely 
ignore me from the first moment for no reason and thats fine too... Yay!

I tell you another emotion I seem to have as a response to this list is 
the feeling of I dunno dissapointment, sort of sadness, sort of 
unpopularity when I see a terse, "UNSUBSCRIBE".
Do you (Walter) have it set up so all the unsubscribes get reflected 
here, or is it just the occasional person who sends it accidentally to 
the wrong place?? 
Actually its more like the feeling that I'm on a ship thats 
starting to sink... - Maybe I should get out while I still can!

However, its something I'll get over easily, I think!!!
Furthermore it just adds to the feeling of fraternity that comes from a 
small group who have remained loyal. 
 (is it PC to use gendered words if you do it latin?)

I have a yearning to experiment with emotional words and ideas here...
(get the idea to try and start a huge argument, but I guess I could do 
that more easily in alt.flame, and besides its not really what I meant)
I am reminded of that group that Josh On set up "the Sociometry Society", 
For two entire meetings we talked entirely about what we wanted the group 
to be, it was a strangely self referential experience, and yet wonderful 
at the same time...
Anyway see you all when I see you
                        
                           ie never  - waaaaiiiiilllllll!!!!!!!!!!
:)        :(       :)      :(       :)     :(      :)



Miles  ;)




From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Thu Oct 12 13:26:49 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Dreams...
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 12:26:49 +1200


Dreams filter through my consciousness
  screening in my dream screen
REM lit on the face of flickering morning
just ssseconds or hours who can tell
dreams feature like adventures
episodes of myth
experienced at the time
passionate KISS
Erie place\cobwebbed\decrypid mansion
battles reminescent of Tarantino movies
dark helicopters\dark suited men
hideing\shoot out
meeting girl
companion
shes trapped by family
escape
waking from deep groggy slumber
breif cogient memories bubble up from the depth of dream world
to be distilled,  pondered and exspressed
we here others talk\dreams-
Skydiving,  trampolineing-liveing lost youth-indulgence in dream
fascination of remembered dreams
meaning?
DREAMER OF DREAMS>>




                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra





From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Thu Oct 12 13:27:17 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Just Tama...
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 12:27:17 +1200


Hello!!

Chippenham (the Commune you founded?)
my mum said she had visited it once,  a big Mansion?
I checked out you peice on addiction & read the news paper interview-cool...
You mentioned something about TV 3 are you going to feature on Inside NZ?

 well as you probably noticed I have been rather inactive in the posting
part of the group,  I have been following all the threads-I have just been
Busy or wanting to be...
I have Exams in around 7 days urrghhh...
60 people in Psyber L eh? interesting to see how many listen and how many
write...
I had a litte correspondance with Victoria-& then she vanished no replys...
But she was cool-gave me some solid advice about Claire...
Is my post not relevant to the group-it is more like a letter than a
discussion post-oh well...
But some times the personal can spark of stuff-like when I talked about my
hug with Claire as Transcendce-well that led to discussion of lots of
interesting stuff...
Although my post abou my Fast was a little bizzare-I got no reaction over
that one-I did feel a little funny about writing that one...

I was chuffed when you said this-
>"Awareness here for me includes Tama and Claire"
I told Claire abou that & she was a bit miffed at first,  kinda-what have
you been telling them-dont worry none of them know you,  then she was cool
about it,  thought it was rather funny.

Me & Claire have been seeing quite alot of each other lately,  hanging out
going to movies.Oh me & her went bowling with some freinds and my some of
my Japenese home stays freinds.It was fun and interesting-well first time
me and claire have hung out with my freinds-I felt a little insecure at
times cause my friend Danny was being really funny and out going and I
kinda felt starnge abou it in realtion to Claire.Later me and Danny
discussed it and apparently he was just being funny to lossen and livening
things up-he felt insecure with the Japenese girls when they spoke their
language.I also recently went to the movies with Calire first time just
us.We met at the bar first,  we talked but I did not have anything
particularly exciting to say-I felt geez is she bored by this..But no she
had a good time..
She was sick yeasterday so a took her round a red Rose...Were just talking
to each other spending time with each other.I think I have carmed down my
need for Romance-its just fine what were doing...
When I left yeasterday I left with a good bye touch on her arm...
that was supriseingly easy-a noticebal reaction...
+ when we were in the movies we were quite close arms touching but she with
drew from that...
oh well enough Claire...
I should write my own Diary me thinks-but its more funning typing on the
computer!!

Miles seems rather charged up at the mo....
His Single Second post lasted alot longer than that.
What did people think of my funny Dream thing?

Oh well I guess I better go and do something else-like history-yay...
Next time I might tie my post into some of your posts....


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Oct 12 23:11:25 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: NEW: NETDYNAM - The Network Group Dynamics Mailing List
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:11:25 GMT

On Fri, 13 Oct 1995 00:04:08 CDT, "Matthew Merkley, M.D."
<merkley@databank.com> wrote:

NETDYNAM on LISTSERV@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU - Network Group Dynamics
                                         Mailing List

   NETDYNAM is a list dedicated to an examination of online group
   dynamics: the purpose will be to examine the process itself of
   writing through listservers -- perceptions of the other
participants,
   the dynamics of flame wars, power and persuasion, what is
effective
   communication and why....

   This will ideally be done in an atmosphere of mutual support
and
   trust but it -- emphatically -- will not be group
psychotherapy.  The
   purpose of the list will be the search for dynamic principles
of
   online mailing lists in general.

   The operation of the list will be as open and non-directive as
   possible, based on the Tavistock model of group dynamics
projects
   where rules and explicit expectations are initially kept in
abeyance
   so that they may emerge, be examined and formulated,
spontaneously.

   One important advantage of email for this kind of project is
that
   every piece of data (piece of email) can be looked at and
compiled --
   statistically perhaps -- and participants are encouraged to
develop
   testable hypotheses about online group dynamics.

   Archives of NETDYNAM mail items are kept in monthly files.
You may
   obtain a list of files in the archives by sending the command

      INDEX NETDYNAM

   in the BODY of e-mail to LISTSERV@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU .

   To subscribe, send the following command in the BODY of mail
   to LISTSERV@SJUVM.STJOHNS.EDU

      SUB NETDYNAM yourfirstname yourlastname

   For example:  SUB NETDYNAM John Doe

   Owner:  Matthew Merkley, M.D.  <MERKLEY@DATABANK.COM>



---------------------------------------------------------------------
   DISCLAIMER: NEW-LIST announcements are edited from information
   provided by the original submitter.  We do NOT verify the
technical
   accuracy nor any claims made in the announcements nor do we
   necessarily agree with them.  We do not warranty or guarantee
any
   services which might be announced - use at your own risk.  For
more
   information send e-mail to LISTSERV@VM1.NoDak.EDU with the
command
   GET NEW-LIST README  in the body.  mgh


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu Fri Oct 13 05:06:46 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Just Tama...
From: Victoria  Vinogradova <vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 12:06:46 -0400 (EDT)



Hei, Tama..

> I had a litte correspondance with Victoria-& then she vanished no replys...
> But she was cool-gave me some solid advice about Claire...
> Is my post not relevant to the group-it is more like a letter than a
> discussion post-oh well... 

I didn't vanish. I am just getting enrolled in my winter depression. For 
that matter, I have a need to not communicate, and just being by myself, 
that's why I didn't answer.

Honey (excuse my familiarity), I can't believe that you are still 
analizing every step you take with Claire. Just get with it. May be you 
should stop posting all of your hesitations and figure them out yourself, 
you are right, in your JOURNAL. Don't substitute the "cyber" (hate that 
word) solitude for the true moment of one on one with yourself.

Of course, it's just my own subjective opinion, but you are too young to 
be so psychoanalitical in regard to every one of your actions. Do you have 
judgmental parents? It seems like your super ego is beyond anything I 
have ever encountered. Stop analizing, let go, smile, feel, don't get into 
your head. Be yourself, and don't think if she is bored or what. If she 
is, than you have the answer. If she isn't, then the more.

You will end up in an institution if this is the approach for your actions in 
the world of relationships.

Ba

Vica



From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Oct 13 11:45:16 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Description of this List.
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 22:45:16 GMT

Hi Josh,

Glad to see you back here -- god knows how your address system
works but your post that I am replying to came:

On Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:22:15 +0000, josh on
<dee@pawpaw.easynet.co.uk> wrote:

Note the word pawpaw in the address.  Anyway it works!

> The
> other great dreamlike medium... cinema, has many sensual similarities to
> dreaming, but nothing on that feeling of kind of being in control and
> having some influence on the future of it but still not really knowing
> where it is going.
> 
> It is these dreamlike media that seem to invite us to really inspect
> ourselves.  Much more than books I think.

There was a talk on by a psychotherapist last night -- I did not
go -- discussing The Piano as if it were a dream.  It sure has
some of that quality.  I can almost recall the movie as if it
were a dream -- some old women running around fussing about
something, a girl, who is articulate and speaks while her mother
is silent, the mother lost her speech as a child.  The finger is
chopped off, the metal prosthesis --  . . .   see what I mean --
it is very like a dream.  Yet -- it is also a film about
colonisation, about power and sexual abuse.  Is to look at it
totally _psychologically_ a form of denial.  (It is only a dream,
it is only imagination.)

This is a question that I bring to this Psybernet forum again and
again -- in many guises -- last time was in the discussion of the
_seduction_ theory (as it is known) of Freud (ie the childhood
abuse is not real, it is a psychological complex).  Perhaps I
raise it because this medium is not "real".

Ah well, off into the hills for a tramp.


Walter.




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Oct 13 17:00:46 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: Description of this List.
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 04:00:46 GMT

Miles

> Thats what I need, a 'to reply' box. For me it is like, by taking the 
> pleasure of opening up the email, I'm setting myself up to have to reply 
> to it. 

I do it by pushing reply -- and then copying the message
including the > comment signs into word.  Then later I can work
through all the open files in word.  Even if the computer crashes
or something Word will save these files as restored ones.  Often
I just delete them all again of course!

There is something to be said though for just replying as you go,
as I am doing now -- it is as if then I respond into that
cyberspace reality that I _sense_ we are all living in and
somehow sharing.  The list is _asynchronous_ but it seems useful
to picture the bunch who are involved in the current moment --
kairos -- the critical moment -- each post has a span in which it
perhaps can catch that wave or miss it.  hard to tell.  I would
not mind if someone replies to this in a couple of years -- it is
possible.  But that would be to use the medium to weave time --
to have old threads reappear.  It would be strange to see a "Sick
Idea" message arrive, a genuine on in response to archived mail.


Threads are perhaps like your dream series Miles.


You say about the Psybernet description (see how we are still on
topic.):
> in my dream my brain was telling me that all this 
> stuff was really cool and fantastic, but I was only dealing with a thing 
> that pointed to what it was going to be, I didn't actually have the real 
> deal, the good stuff. I mean, I didn't stop to actually read the words, I 
> just knew they were pretty cool. It seems a shame that you can't get away 
> with this trick when writing the description of the list.
> Or can you?

Perhaps I could make a hypertext description of the list!  (You
poor Dunedinites who don't have WWW would need to take a disk to
a friends place)  Maybe one day soon!  

Even without hypertext there must be more that can be done.  

I have just posted the information about a list on Net Group
Dynamics.  Now that is a topic dear to my heart -- and I am
almost jealous that there is another group doing this (delete
almost).  I instantly joined -- but Have No Time for another list
in my life!  6 messages just arrived and they look very
interesting, all these themes about being a list-owner from
people who have done that for a while -- peers in other words --
I will look at that list!  

The point is that the description of that list is To The Point.
That is both its strength and something that will make it work
well.  Psybernet has its work as well, which I think we do!  It
is just a bit more difficult to grasp.  For all that I _like_ the
description I send out.  

> How much is the WWW like a dream? Have you ever noticed that almost the 
> entire web is a whole bunch of pointers pointing to pointers that can 
> point you to the real good stuff. And like whenever you go to one of 
> these places it says, this place here is the coolest place in the world 
> because it has all the links to all the cool stuff, and all the latest up 
> to the minute shit, but in actual point of fact doesn't have a diddly 
> squat hell of a lot on it except a whole bunch of pointers to other 
> places that are much the same. Well I'm exagerating of course, 

No you are not -- that is how it is.  Except for Psybernet which
is really cool  (joke)  But a joke with some truth as I have this
idea of Information Alive, which is that every link I make has a
review attached from a person with an email address -- it is
mostly my comment but I'd like to add more from others --
submissions with reviews (brief comments) would be good.  But the
WWW remains a veneer, the cover of the substance -- which is in
the articles and in the lists, which are merely (!) linked to in
the web. 

> 
> I'm gonna declare myself dead for a weekor so, so that I don't have to feel 
> guilty about lurking during the exams ok? Well, we'll see. Hello everyone!!!

best of luck with exams -- don't forget to read the questions
properly!


Walter 





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Fri Oct 13 17:00:46 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz  
Subject: Re: Description of this List.
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 04:00:46 GMT

Miles

> Thats what I need, a 'to reply' box. For me it is like, by taking the 
> pleasure of opening up the email, I'm setting myself up to have to reply 
> to it. 

I do it by pushing reply -- and then copying the message
including the > comment signs into word.  Then later I can work
through all the open files in word.  Even if the computer crashes
or something Word will save these files as restored ones.  Often
I just delete them all again of course!

There is something to be said though for just replying as you go,
as I am doing now -- it is as if then I respond into that
cyberspace reality that I _sense_ we are all living in and
somehow sharing.  The list is _asynchronous_ but it seems useful
to picture the bunch who are involved in the current moment --
kairos -- the critical moment -- each post has a span in which it
perhaps can catch that wave or miss it.  hard to tell.  I would
not mind if someone replies to this in a couple of years -- it is
possible.  But that would be to use the medium to weave time --
to have old threads reappear.  It would be strange to see a "Sick
Idea" message arrive, a genuine on in response to archived mail.


Threads are perhaps like your dream series Miles.


You say about the Psybernet description (see how we are still on
topic.):
> in my dream my brain was telling me that all this 
> stuff was really cool and fantastic, but I was only dealing with a thing 
> that pointed to what it was going to be, I didn't actually have the real 
> deal, the good stuff. I mean, I didn't stop to actually read the words, I 
> just knew they were pretty cool. It seems a shame that you can't get away 
> with this trick when writing the description of the list.
> Or can you?

Perhaps I could make a hypertext description of the list!  (You
poor Dunedinites who don't have WWW would need to take a disk to
a friends place)  Maybe one day soon!  

Even without hypertext there must be more that can be done.  

I have just posted the information about a list on Net Group
Dynamics.  Now that is a topic dear to my heart -- and I am
almost jealous that there is another group doing this (delete
almost).  I instantly joined -- but Have No Time for another list
in my life!  6 messages just arrived and they look very
interesting, all these themes about being a list-owner from
people who have done that for a while -- peers in other words --
I will look at that list!  

The point is that the description of that list is To The Point.
That is both its strength and something that will make it work
well.  Psybernet has its work as well, which I think we do!  It
is just a bit more difficult to grasp.  For all that I _like_ the
description I send out.  

> How much is the WWW like a dream? Have you ever noticed that almost the 
> entire web is a whole bunch of pointers pointing to pointers that can 
> point you to the real good stuff. And like whenever you go to one of 
> these places it says, this place here is the coolest place in the world 
> because it has all the links to all the cool stuff, and all the latest up 
> to the minute shit, but in actual point of fact doesn't have a diddly 
> squat hell of a lot on it except a whole bunch of pointers to other 
> places that are much the same. Well I'm exagerating of course, 

No you are not -- that is how it is.  Except for Psybernet which
is really cool  (joke)  But a joke with some truth as I have this
idea of Information Alive, which is that every link I make has a
review attached from a person with an email address -- it is
mostly my comment but I'd like to add more from others --
submissions with reviews (brief comments) would be good.  But the
WWW remains a veneer, the cover of the substance -- which is in
the articles and in the lists, which are merely (!) linked to in
the web. 

> 
> I'm gonna declare myself dead for a weekor so, so that I don't have to feel 
> guilty about lurking during the exams ok? Well, we'll see. Hello everyone!!!

best of luck with exams -- don't forget to read the questions
properly!


Walter 





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From dee@pawpaw.easynet.co.uk Sat Oct 14 07:22:08 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Land and Freedom
From: josh on <dee@pawpaw.easynet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:22:08 +0000


I went to see a wonderful film called land and freedom.  It was directed by
Ken Loach and about the Spanish civil war.  There was one scene where a
village was freed from the facists and the locals had a village meeting to
decide whether they should collectivise the land.  The debate that ensued
was enthralling.  So much was revealed about the historical situation,
their political positions, and philosophical dilemmas.  But it also was
really interesting from a group dynamics (at the level of the meeting
itself) point of view.

Here were all these people who basically were in agrement but found it so
hard to agree, or maybe they weren't.  Anyhow it reminded me of cyberspace
and made me wonder what the equivilent kind of pertinant issues are going
to face us here and in the world that gets technified.  Will we find
ourselves nearly agreeing about things?

Well it was such an excellent peice of cinema I thought and I'd love to
discuss it., so if you get the chance to see it please do.

Josh On.





From dee@pawpaw.easynet.co.uk Sat Oct 14 07:22:15 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Description of this List.
From: josh on <dee@pawpaw.easynet.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 18:22:15 +0000


Hi there,
>:)<."",.:...:..:()...:))..::::::::(O)::::::::)::::::(:)...!...

Miles wrote:

>> > I distinctly remember (now) that last night/this morning, I dreamt about
>> > Walters post describing this list. In the dream the description was
>> > fantastic, and many threaded,

nice.  I too dream of this list and you listers.  There is something very
dreamlike about cyberspace.  But perhaps that is just because I am usually
so tired when I finally get around to entering it, or perhaps it is because
I am always lying on my bed at the time... the only way to write if you ask
me!

But a difference between cyberspace and the dreams (at least dreams that I
have had) that I have had is that in this imagined world the other
characters are much more directly connected to flesh and blood versions of
themselves.  They (you) also have more control over the themes etc.  The
other great dreamlike medium... cinema, has many sensual similarities to
dreaming, but nothing on that feeling of kind of being in control and
having some influence on the future of it but still not really knowing
where it is going.

It is these dreamlike media that seem to invite us to really inspect
ourselves.  Much more than books I think.

>> I expect the one I posted was only a pale imitation!  Any
>> suggestions on it would be welcome.
>This is kinda true, but then comparing with the fantasy of dream, which
>is all description and no substance is a pretty hard competition.

I agree with what I think that you are saying here, but think that
substance is the wrong word.  I might be wrong what do you think?  What is
the quality that a written peice can have in dreams that it lacks in err,
umm real life and cyberspace?  In my dreams something  like Walter's
description might still be considered just a peice of writing it might take
offf and do lots of things that a peice of writing can't do.  I think (now
I am rambling, sorry to Ron who edits down his posts to a consise and most
enjoyable read, I feel a little guilty, but this is a bit of a warm up post
for me!) um where was I?, I think that cyberspace is a bit like that, look
how much more writing can do here.  With the aid of hypertext.... argggh
what am I saying, Miles was making the distinction between cyberspace text
and the dream version.  God damn logic and circles.

>Inspiration, perhaps, but I find it hard to communicate. I guess that as
>time goes on the whole thing will become more fantastic though... Purple
>prosating it provides little, but a crazy reality could only be described
>by something of like nature i guess. Excuse me I rambling...

No no no, it is great, I know how things can take on that larger than life
quality in dreams.  The list (or whatever) joins with the feelings you have
about it to become a monolithic dream entity, forcefully representing
itself really powerfully... and then you wake up and think, shit, do I
really feel that much about the list or whatever.

And Miles said more:

>> > I certainly feel linked to this list as I walk around my daily life. Just
>> > at the moment, I have been feeling really guilty because I feel like I
>> > killed off discussion of private groups by suggesting that they
>> > should be free or something like that...

Me too, linked that is.  I have read every message for the last year and a
half or so, and have really enjoyed it.  Only occassionally posting and
rarely getting that involved, but always feeling an involuntary guilt for
not posting enough.  I like that guilt thoughy, it is a nice warm one, more
want and personal obligation I guess.  But posts sit in my to reply box
until it would be unlikely that the authors even remember them and so I
file them away and replace them with new ones.  Such is the life of many a
lurker I imagine!

And Walter wrote:

>> I have been thinking I killed the discussion!  I did not think
>> you said they should be free . . . I thought you made an
>> excellent point, and I quote from the your Small Group post:

Heres me thinking I am kind of responsible, by never posting!

>I tell you another emotion I seem to have as a response to this list is
>the feeling of I dunno dissapointment, sort of sadness, sort of
>unpopularity when I see a terse, "UNSUBSCRIBE".
>Do you (Walter) have it set up so all the unsubscribes get reflected
>here, or is it just the occasional person who sends it accidentally to
>the wrong place??
>Actually its more like the feeling that I'm on a ship thats
>starting to sink... - Maybe I should get out while I still can!

Oh goodness, I remember for a while this place was populated by Walter
writing messages to himself!!!  (And whomever was lurking!)  If there was a
time to abandon ship it was then, but it is often when lists get quiet that
they get interesting.  On FC it would be really busy, too busy, and
everyone would stop writing, maybe only one message in two days or
something, which is quiet for that list, and then people declare it dead.
This would in my recollection be followed my really interesting
introspective periods about the list and it's history and future.

>I am reminded of that group that Josh On set up "the Sociometry Society",

Huh, I'd totally forgotten about that!  Cool.
I would like to do more of that sometime, not self referential discussion,
(though that is always fun) but creative group work of some kind...

Josh On





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Sat Oct 14 12:01:33 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Description of this List.
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 12:01:33 +1300 (NDT)




Josh on wrote;
>  posts sit in my to reply box until it would be unlikely that the 
> authors even remember them and so I...

Thats what I need, a 'to reply' box. For me it is like, by taking the 
pleasure of opening up the email, I'm setting myself up to have to reply 
to it. This is because, after I look at the mail once, the little "N" for 
not read dissapears and I don't look at it again most likely, except for 
the feeling that I may have missed someone some time ago, when I thought 
to myself, oh i'll write back later. At least with snail mail you know 
that most peoples experience of the whole thing will be similar from the 
perspective of having to get around to posting the letter etc... 

> But a difference between cyberspace and the dreams (at least dreams that I
> have had) that I have had is that in this imagined world the other
> characters are much more directly connected to flesh and blood versions of
> themselves.  They (you) also have more control over the themes etc.  The
> other great dreamlike medium... cinema, has many sensual similarities to
> dreaming, but nothing on that feeling of kind of being in control and
> having some influence on the future of it but still not really knowing
> where it is going.
Yes. With dreams, I often feel that I am doing something, that if not a 
task, I have some big thing that I am doing, weeding my way through. 
Dreams don't happen to me, I happen to dreams. 

Recently my dreams have been travelling the pacific isle, Tahiti, 
Rarotonga. I was at a city council meeting in a gymnasium in Fiji 
yesterday morning. For some reason that dream was really intense and 
lasts with me even now.
Thinking about the dream I had about this list. It seems to be one from 
another series. I sometimes have diving dreams. Where I pass down deep 
deep into the ocean in a submersible, and then start to go into the rocks 
and caverns down there. One of the most intense dreams I ever had 
involved going 'deeper than anyone had ever gone before' it was really 
really scary, but exciting, normally I am a coward with things like that, 
but for this diving down thing I was a real hero I think. Visually it was 
a bit like one of those disney movies where the foliage at the front of 
the screen sort of moves off to either side and reveals the campsite 
behind... (does anyone know what I'm talking about, actually Disney never 
did it like that, but its that sort of era, you know, the plants at the 
front move faster than the ones 'further back' and sort of move out of 
the way) well the dream was like that. Only for the Psybernet dream, it 
was a whole bunch of words that were moving around and sort of on either 
side, instead of plants.


> It is these dreamlike media that seem to invite us to really inspect
> ourselves.  Much more than books I think.
Yeah?

> >> I expect the one I posted was only a pale imitation!  Any
> >> suggestions on it would be welcome.
> >This is kinda true, but then comparing with the fantasy of dream, which
> >is all description and no substance is a pretty hard competition.
> 
> I agree with what I think that you are saying here, but think that
> substance is the wrong word.  I might be wrong what do you think?  What is
I agree that substance is the wrong word. To make an analogy... You know 
with computers how sometimes the computer deals with a real piece of 
data (that is quite large) and sometimes it merely deals with a pointer 
to where the data is. No? well it doesn't matter if you don't. I think it 
is like that, like in my dream my brain was telling me that all this 
stuff was really cool and fantastic, but I was only dealing with a thing 
that pointed to what it was going to be, I didn't actually have the real 
deal, the good stuff. I mean, I didn't stop to actually read the words, I 
just knew they were pretty cool. It seems a shame that you can't get away 
with this trick when writing the description of the list.
Or can you?
How much is the WWW like a dream? Have you ever noticed that almost the 
entire web is a whole bunch of pointers pointing to pointers that can 
point you to the real good stuff. And like whenever you go to one of 
these places it says, this place here is the coolest place in the world 
because it has all the links to all the cool stuff, and all the latest up 
to the minute shit, but in actual point of fact doesnt have a diddly 
squat hell of a lot on it except a whole bunch of pointers to other 
places that are much the same. Well I'm exaagerating of course, but you 
can see how the Web could get away with perpetrating the impression that 
it had a whole lot of stuff on it when in actual fact all it had were a 
whole lot of pointers linking you to things that would link you to the 
pointers to the cool stuff.....


> God damn logic and circles.
hey I'm a mathematician... I like that shit.

Which reminds me... Ummm.....
> On FC it would be really busy, too busy, and
> everyone would stop writing, maybe only one message in two days or
> something, which is quiet for that list, and then people declare it dead.

I'm gonna declare myself dead for a weekor so, so that I don't have to feel 
guilty about lurking during the exams ok? Well, we'll see. Hello everyone!!!

Miles
 




From peterd@chopper.macmedia.com.au Sun Oct 15 05:56:48 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: ...this List
From: Peter Davey <peterd@chopper.macmedia.com.au>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 02:26:48 +0930


>
>There is something to be said though for just replying as you go,
>as I am doing now -- it is as if then I respond into that
>cyberspace reality that I _sense_ we are all living in and
>somehow sharing.  The list is _asynchronous_ but it seems useful
>to picture the bunch who are involved in the current moment --
>kairos -- the critical moment -- each post has a span in which it
>perhaps can catch that wave or miss it.  hard to tell.

A large part of the enjoyment in listening in on a free-floating list like
this is in watching which threads generate what sort of responses - and how
the subject drifts...

>
>Perhaps I could make a hypertext description of the list!
> ...  Maybe one day soon!

A map of recent and current threads would be nice.
It ought to be possible to use - for instance - the first word or a [word]
in the subject to track threads, and construct such a thing automatically.
Maybe someone will do it in Java. Maybe this is the sort of thing the
NETDYNAM group are using...
>
>Even without hypertext there must be more that can be done.
>
>I have just posted the information about a list on Net Group
>Dynamics.  I will look at that list!

Me, too...

>But the
>WWW remains a veneer, the cover of the substance -- which is in
>the articles and in the lists, which are merely (!) linked to in
>the web.
>
The techniques for keeping the web site alive as a focussing tool for the
discussions haven't really been well developed yet. A good mail manager
work-in with Netscape just has to be under development somewhere... HTML
mail has some interesting potential.

Of course, it all comes to nothing - or worse, to pure commerce - without
groups like this one to explore the outer reaches of what is possible. The
"heart connection" which shows through from time to time is an important
part of what makes the difference between technological narcissism and
social and individual growth.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technology...                                  peterd@chopper.macmedia.com.au
                             Peter Davey            Adelaide, South Australia
     ... is applied psi                             Ph: +61 8 272 7120
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From tyoun@m-net.static.co.kr Sun Oct 15 06:56:45 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: unsubscribe
From: Tyoun <tyoun@m-net.static.co.kr>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 02:56:45 +0900


unsubscribe



From hoon@apk.net Mon Oct 16 02:41:23 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Description of this list
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 09:41:23 -0400



Description of this List (1)

>  -c-
>
>  It is these dreamlike media that seem to invite us to really
>  inspect ourselves.  Much more than books I think.

Alas, at this point in time, images must be described instead of posted as
such, which is a disadvantage for those who might prefer sometimes to
illustrate their reponse. I, for one, would sometimes like to send musical
snippets or
little graphic sketches.

Psychologically, certain types may be uncomfortable with having to *write*
while this *wording* indulges the strength of others...although there is no
doubt about the richness and diversity of expression here. But, the medium
isn't optimized for everybody, all *types*!

>  >> I expect the one I posted was only a pale imitation!  Any
>  >> suggestions on it would be welcome. >This is kinda true,
>  but then comparing with the fantasy of dream, which >is all
>  description and no substance is a pretty hard competition.
>  -c- how much more writing can do here.  With the aid of
>  hypertext.... argggh what am I saying, Miles was making the
>  distinction between cyberspace text and the dream version.
>  God damn logic and circles.

Yet, for some, to actually do dreamwork is to note all the non-verbal
elements included in the sharing of the dream.

Purple prosating crazy reality nature rambling...

>  No no no, it is great, I know how things can take on that
>  larger than life quality in dreams.  The list (or whatever)
>  joins with the feelings you have about it to become a
>  monolithic dream entity, forcefully representing itself
>  really powerfully... and then you wake up and think, shit,
>  do I really feel that much about the list or whatever.

I wonder how much emailing there is between participants outside of the
list's corridor? A question I have is: ^Who is this person...How do I learn
more?^ But, I think how intrusive it would be to ask such a question in
public or private...that's a fairly significant barrier I've so far imposed
on my curiosity!

-c-

>  Heres me thinking I am kind of responsible, by never
>  posting!

Over the past few months (I guess) five frequent plus four infrequent
posters are generating the cyber narrative here...and upwards of fifty
others are observing.

-c-
>  interesting.  On FC it would be really busy, too busy, and
>  everyone would stop writing, maybe only one message in two
>  days or something, which is quiet for that list, and then
>  people declare it dead. This would in my recollection be
-c-

Because I have to read a message to know what it is about, telling, ( :} )
it is necessary that I sub to groups where there is a high percentage that
a post may interest me. Here the odds are favorable; in FC I lurked during
a phase when they were not...for me at least. NET-Dynamics so far seems
favorable. Another list, Tariqas, has a high level of thoughtful posts but
the volume is borderline excessive.

Psyche-D is a list that concerns physiological models for consciousness,
and it's postings are over-the-top considerations by scientists and others
about such models...and lacking totally both self-referential and depth
psychological elements...yet, interpretive by definition since those models
must interpret lacking anyway of their experimental verification. Oddly,
the posts on that list become self-referential to me because they refer
back to a huge logos-effort to understand completely the workings of the
brain. The result is that I lurk in silence knowing that I can't really
point out how naked all the emperors there appear to me...wouldn't serve
any purpose to inflame the group.

(I use EasyView to burst my mailboxes and line up posts in the high volume
cases, then skim very quickly. It's an unsatisfactory method. Using a
database to archive is better but very time-consuming; I only use it so far
for Psyber-L.)

I think at times: INFO OVERLOAD and wonder about how it is I've come to
spend five+ hours a week doing this! As I've mentioned before, it's easier
to satisfy my hunger here than in RL.

>  but creative group work of some kind...
>
>  Josh On

Any ideas about such a project?

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand.
--Gordon Housworth





From hoon@apk.net Mon Oct 16 02:41:50 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: 
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 09:41:50 -0400


Description of this list (2)

-c-
>  There was a talk on by a psychotherapist last night -- I did
>  not go -- discussing The Piano as if it were a dream.  It
-c-
>  prosthesis --  . . .   see what I mean -- it is very like a
>  dream.  Yet -- it is also a film about colonisation, about
>  power and sexual abuse.  Is to look at it totally
>  _psychologically_ a form of denial.  (It is only a dream, it
>  is only imagination.)

Only imagination? Perhaps our entire cognition is only *image*?

Anyway... I draw a distinction between the interpretation of an actual
dream and the interpretation of artistic expression and the interpretation
of fantasy, etc..  The tools used may be the same but to say a movie is
dreamlike is to remark on one's own sense of dream-like-ness.

The either/or part surprises me. The Piano is full of archetypal content
(as is everything human?) and may be looked at psychologically of course,
in which case colonisation, power, sexual abuse, are enfolded into the
content, which is only one view point, in any case.

Jung, for example, didn't ever say our psychology let's us off the hook. To
look at it *totally* is to finally bear our psychological burden one way or
the other. But, it's looking at one's own psyche that is fruitful...I am
fascinated with archetypal interpretation, especially as it regards the
nature of the collective and the psychological problems in our times, but
what activates me inside is to bring that work home to/through my own
psyche.

Example: already know about my own *demon lover* so cannot deny the aspect
of the O.J. *problem* that resonates with my own experience.  Which isn't
to deny either his terrible crime or my lesser trespasses against real
woman in my own life.

>  medium is not "real".
>
>  Ah well, off into the hills for a tramp.
>
>   Walter.

!? :^)


--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

Leap before you look. --Peter Lloyd





From hoon@apk.net Mon Oct 16 02:42:38 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Description of this list
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 09:42:38 -0400


Description of this list (3)
>  -c-
>
>  > having some influence on the future of it but still not
>  > really knowing where it is going.
>
>  Yes. With dreams, I often feel that I am doing something,
>  that if not a  task, I have some big thing that I am doing,
>  weeding my way through.  Dreams don't happen to me, I happen
>  to dreams.
>
>  had  involved going 'deeper than anyone had ever gone
>  before' it was really  really scary, but exciting, normally
>  I am a coward with things like that,  but for this diving
>  down thing I was a real hero I think. Visually it was  a bit

I relate to your dream...starting to go deeper is heroic.

-c-
>  its that sort of era, you know, the plants at the  front
>  move faster than the ones 'further back' and sort of move
>  out of  the way) well the dream was like that. Only for the
>  Psybernet dream, it  was a whole bunch of words that were
>  moving around and sort of on either  side, instead of
>  plants.

What's behind the (planted) words?

-c-
>  like in my dream my brain was telling me that all this
>  stuff was really cool and fantastic, but I was only dealing
>  with a thing  that pointed to what it was going to be, I
>  didn't actually have the real  deal, the good stuff. I mean,
>  I didn't stop to actually read the words, I  just knew they
>  were pretty cool. It seems a shame that you can't get away
-c-
>  you to things that would link you to the  pointers to the
>  cool stuff.....

What is cool? My WWW experience is that the idea of the WWW is neater than
it's practice...having visited so many sites that interest me initially and
disappoint me upon closer inspection.

It was Walter's Psyber-L web site to which I was led to by a link at the
Jung hp that brought me into this group. Ahh, the real deal!


--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

What's the difference between genius and stupidity? Genius has limits.
--marie gemelli-carroll





From hoon@apk.net Mon Oct 16 02:43:42 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Modality & Medium
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 09:43:42 -0400


Description of this list-> Modality & Medium

-c-
>  to picture the bunch who are involved in the current moment

Hey, what do those pictures look like?
>  --
>  kairos -- the critical moment -- each post has a span in
>  which it perhaps can catch that wave or miss it.  hard to tell.  I
-c-
>  Threads are perhaps like your dream series Miles.

The wave aspect sometimes is frustrating to me. Threads go in circles and,
unlike RL conversation, there isn't an ongoing summarizing or big picture
taking account of...it strikes me as being circular too. Then...good stuff
gets lost *back in time*.

>  Perhaps I could make a hypertext description of the list!
>  (You poor Dunedinites who don't have WWW would need to take a
>  disk to a friends place)  Maybe one day soon!

Here is a possible, albeit labor intensive, solution. Linking the
expressions here in a big picture hypertext summary. (See below how I've
begun to deal with the volume and quality for my own purpose, which is to
somehow not lose old posts in the *past*.)
-c-

I've been recently reorganizing my own approach to Psyber-L by archiving
all the messages posted since late August into a database where I can more
easily sort and keep alive the threads. This should help...I also have
taken a more disciplined approach to using Eudora to archive the threads by
subject as they come in. And, I've been standardizing how I name the
downloaded posts and my own text files/responses to posts.

At the same time because I've been skimming two books, one sympathetic and
one skeptical toward the on-line group-making (community-building), I've
been tossing back and forth my own consideration of how this medium may
inspire *progressive* (?) action-taking in the (so-called !) RW/RL.

And, I've left the four questions posted a week ago hanging while reading
of your responses to those and to new threads.

One thing I've noted, glued together by my own propensity to see threads
weaving themselves into a whole, is how that process appears to me in
retrospect. Two observations. There is a larger perspective being woven but
it doesn't get summarized so I wonder what each participant's summary would
be. And, I wonder how participating in this group alters our lives outside
of this space.

That this list's activity is resonating through dreams is intriguing.

I'm thinking of summarizing the last two months threads in (another)
parsing exercize trying to distill the kernals through the filter of my own
bias.

Question for you, Walter, is how we might assist you in developing the
medium to better keep the *past alive* and linked to the present. One
possible objective.

Best and better to one and all.

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

An enchanted loom where millions of flashing shuttles weave a dissolving
pattern, always a meaningful pattern though never an abiding one.

--Sir Charles Sherrington, describing the brain





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 16 13:01:28 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Modality & Medium
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 00:01:28 GMT

Stephen,

> Question for you, Walter, is how we might assist you in developing the
> medium to better keep the *past alive* and linked to the present. One
> possible objective.

This question is a very good start, thank you.  Also your
question of what each summary might look like is interesting --
perhaps we can produce some.  

Also the archives are about to go on the web, as well as being
available by email.  

For all that, I guess it is all to assist us with the flow into
the future.  As you say to Miles:  What _is_ the cool stuff, what
is behind the screen of words?  Looking at the past and bringing
our psyche and projections? to bear on that might be a powerful
mirror.


Walter 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From stormk@netcom.com Mon Oct 16 20:36:41 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: The impersonal nature of interpersonal cyberspace relations.
From: "Storm A. King" <stormk@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 95 23:36:41 -0800


I wrote this on 05/05/95....
I offer it to this group at this time as a way of sharing how I feel about
what virtual community can be if peoplel take the time to share things from
the heart that really matter....

The impersonal nature of interpersonal cyberspace relations.
a short essay by Storm A King

"I couldn't get to sleep tonight.  Something kept turning in my  head.  For
the last year and a half, I have spent considerable  time at this keyboard.
Particapating in virtual support  groups.  Reading thousands of notes from
discussion groups  devoted to topics relating to psychology and virtual
communities.  And writing about how valuable it is to feel  connected to so
many others that share similar interests.   Some things happened this week
to conspire and caused me  to realize the true nature and effect of what is
missing in this  medium.  We don't really know each other, because we don't
tend to share the kind of information that brings people close  and fosters
a sense of community.  Even in the virtual groups  where that is part of the
stated purpose for participation.

What happened is that one person died, one person got very  angry at me, and
another shared about meeting a lover for  the first time whom they had come
to know over the Net.  All  on different email lists.  As I tell these three
stories, think  about what you know and do not know about the people you
have met here.

Mr. Gerald M. Phillips, among his many other  accomplishments, was a regular
contributor to a list I am on.   This list is devoted to discussions of the
interpersonal nature  of cyberspace communication, and has over a thousand
subscribers.  When he died this week, what I knew about him  was based on my
reading the near daily  notes that he posted  to this group over the last
year and a half.  As the tributes to  him came pouring in, my impression of
this man was filled in.   I learned about who he truly was for the first
time.  People  wrote about how he had helped them, about how he had been  a
friend and a mentor.  They spoke of his goals and ideas and  accomplishments
in a way that made me realize that I had in  fact barley know this person at
all.  I knew his ideas, and a  bare minimum of his situation.  Since this
list is not an  emotional support group, it is quite appropriate that I had
known no more than I did.  But, having been given this new  insight into the
personal nature of someone whom had been  an influence so many lives,
including mine, it caused me to  reconsider the insight I think I have with
others whom I  share cyberspaces that are designed to be support groups. And
to contemplate what it is I use to feel close to someone  here.

Telling this next story is a bit tricky.  I want to talk about  something
that went on in a private, closed group, in a way  that I can share with
that group and others.  The nearly 200  people on this list value the
privacy of it and often post notes  that are very self disclosing.  An
incident occurred last fall.   One of the members of the group was in
trouble, and this  caused great stress and anxiety among the other members,
who tried their best to help.  As someone doing research into  and writing
about the value of such support groups, I saw  this as an example that could
be used to explain to others the  nature and depth of the interpersonal
bonds that form in  such cyberspace groups.  I wrote an article, and shared
it  with the group.  There was a misunderstanding regarding  permission to
tell this story in the way I did.  The member  who had been at the focus of
this incident became very upset  with me.  The group sharing was disrupted,
and emotions ran  very high.  I concluded I had made a mistake, and agreed
not  to try to publish that article.  This person and I are  net.friends
again, because we care about and respect each  other.  This all had several
effects on me.  One was to  sharpen my awareness of the ethics involved in
writing about  what goes on in virtual communities.  That is a whole 
separate subject  I am looking into.  The other effect was to  make me
realize that it is too easy to think that I know  someone here because I
have read a lot of notes they post.

It is all the small details that are missing.  Cyberspace  relationships are
truncated versions of real life ones.  The  exchanges are short, and the
awareness of others true nature  is illusionary.  Even in the closest of
groups, the notes posted  represent such a small fraction of the person
writing that  intimacy and interpersonal bonding occur only if someone
unilaterally chooses it.  Behind everyone of the notes I read  daily from
even my best net.friends, there is a life, filled with  houses and cars and
wives and kids and jobs, of which I am  mostly completely unaware.

One more illustration.  One of the lists I am on is an open list,  but the
subject matter is very personal.  I have met in person  a half dozen of the
approximately 100 people on this list, and  feel very close to all the rest
that post regularly.  Last night, a  member told the story of what happened
when he traveled  across the country to meet, in person for the first time,
a lady  he had fallen in love with by email.  In an 8k message to the  group
, he talked about his trip and his hopes and anxieties  and fears.   The
little details were there.  A traffic jam on the  way, the color of the
night, a light in her window.  I could feel  it all because it was concrete,
not just the ideas and emotions,  but the context and situation they
occurred in too.  I realized  that what fosters insight, produces emotional
attachment and  promotes the sense of community in virtual environments is
the completeness of the picture in my head of the other  people here.  Not
just how they feel about the important  issues we share in common, but what
the world looks like  from their eyes.

The media continues to hype the Internet for all its worth.   Membership in
commercial interactive services is at an all  time high and rising ever
faster.  What are all these millions  of people doing here?  Asking inane
questions?  Lots.  Having  meaningless chat sessions where the underling
attraction is to  try to flirt?  Yes.  Sifting through an unimaginable piles
of  information, organized in a random fashion?  Indeed.   Arguing and
yelling and calling each other names?  This  happens a lot in some forums.
Falling madly in love?  This  happens way more than anyone I know has been
able to  account for so far.  And forming lasting, important  friendships,
based on interpersonal bonds that are mostly  illusions.  Yet, somehow, for
so many, the cold impersonal  presence of the words and the ideas expressed 
on a computer  screen are being translated into emotional connections and
exciting adventures into long distant relationships.  When  real lives touch
each others, things change.  What makes it  real is the connection to the
real life behind the ideas.  As  expressed in the little details.  The
picture of others, complete  in its context, form and colors.  The knowledge
that the other  has grandkids, drives a certain kind of car, likes a
particular  type of breakfast cereal.

Well, it is after 5 AM, and the muse that wouldn't let me  sleep is leaving.
 I plan to post this to groups where the  purpose is not one of fostering
intimacy or exchanging  emotional support, but, as a bit of an experiment,
allow me to  share some details here and you decide if you agree with this
assesment.

I live in an one bedroom apartment on the second floor.  I  just stepped out
on the balcony to stretch and get some fresh  air.  Even without my contacts
in, I can see that the sky has a  few clouds, just turning pink.  The birds
have started their  pre-dawn chirping.  It is still in the room, except for
the  sound of the exhaust fan on my computer, sitting on my big  wrap around
desk, and the tapping of these keys.  My desk is  it's normal mess.
Organized piles of half sorted papers, notes  to myself, and yesterdays mail
strewn on top of that.  I am  alone, because my wife has been working out of
town for a  few months now.  I do not like kicking around this apartment  by
myself, but the new shag carpet feels good under my bare  feet when I end up
pacing and thinking like I did tonight.   The second cup of strong coffee
since midnight got cold  before it was half gone some time ago, but I drank
it anyway. I have no doubts that the struggle to write this and the lack of
sleep well seem well worth it later, for my fascination with  and attempts
to explain interpersonal computer intimacy is a  big creative outlet in my
life.  I hope it help others.  Now, to  take a hot shower and sleep a bit. I
have to drive an hour to  be at my mom's at noon for a get together.


Copyright 1995 by
Storm A. King      Mountain View, California      stormk@netcom.com
   The information revolution rolls on, don't let it roll over you :-)  
--
Storm A King    Mountain View, CA     stormk@netcom.com
   Student, Pacific Graduate School of Psychology



------- FORWARD, End of original message -------


--
Storm A King    Mountain View, CA     stormk@netcom.com
   Student, Pacific Graduate School of Psychology






From hoon@apk.net Tue Oct 17 02:14:43 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: The impersonal nature of interpersonal cyberspace relations.
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 09:14:43 -0400


At 11:36 PM 10/15/95, Storm A. King wrote:
>I wrote this on 05/05/95....
>I offer it to this group at this time as a way of sharing how I feel about
>what virtual community can be if peoplel take the time to share things from
>the heart that really matter....

How do you know when somebody has shared from the heart? Does text alone
provide enough cues?

-c-
>missing in this  medium.  We don't really know each other, because we don't
>tend to share the kind of information that brings people close  and fosters
>a sense of community.  Even in the virtual groups  where that is part of the
>stated purpose for participation.

Your examples that follow will suggest otherwise. Scott, one thing I get
from your post is a personal idea about signal to noise ratio, which
instead of referring to value of information, refers to what might be
called psychological authenticity of the information.

-c-
>friend and a mentor.  They spoke of his goals and ideas and  accomplishments
>in a way that made me realize that I had in  fact barley know this person at
>all.  I knew his ideas, and a  bare minimum of his situation.  Since this

How would you structure communications in a group to encourage this kind of
sharing of knowledge of one person about another?

-c-
>not  to try to publish that article.  This person and I are  net.friends
>again, because we care about and respect each  other.  This all had several

There's one bottom line in any relational medium!

-c-
>realize that it is too easy to think that I know  someone here because I
>have read a lot of notes they post.

My own premise is that I know my self and others in degrees...if I am
internally and externally aware, then it is a progressive process.

At the same time, I like using my intuition to get a feel for a person by
imagining them drawing clues from the barest of evidence, in our case,
written text. However, do my imaginings correspond with knowledge of the
real person? Not here, nor in RL (!) do they.

-c-
>awareness of others true nature  is illusionary.  Even in the closest of

I would say that awareness of others is in fact possible but knowledge of
others is an illusion...albeit a marvelous and essential illusion!

>groups, the notes posted  represent such a small fraction of the person
>writing that  intimacy and interpersonal bonding occur only if someone
>unilaterally chooses it.  Behind everyone of the notes I read  daily from

There is always the option to privately email people who interest you...do
you take this route? Would you make a direct appeal to another for their
self-revelation? Or, through the more public route, do you have
reservations about self-revelation made to a public group including many if
not mostly strangers?

-c-
>occurred in too.  I realized  that what fosters insight, produces emotional
>attachment and  promotes the sense of community in virtual environments is
>the completeness of the picture in my head of the other  people here.  Not
>just how they feel about the important  issues we share in common, but what
>the world looks like  from their eyes.

Another premise of mine would be that among the things we reveal in any
medium are our belief systems, or non-systems. :) For this instance, mine:
my pictures can be said to be complete, and then re-completed and
re-completed again and again...a succession of illusions about others...and
this happens in RL as well as here!

Furthermore, my so-called knowledge of others is really a mirror image of
the knowledge of myself...which is to say I've come around to realize for
myself that such an image is imagined and is as much about the mystery of
another person and the mystery of myself...heck, it's a complete mystery.

I'm begging a question...can a person know another person?

-c-
>And forming lasting, important  friendships,
>based on interpersonal bonds that are mostly  illusions.  Yet, somehow, for

Perhaps this is the case and true for RL too. I'm surrendered to this
idea...lacking the ability to inhabit another person's eyes, *heart*,
mentality, etc., then I'm left with the illusion and the reflection and the
imagining of another...and the inadequacy of it all becomes, for me, the
adequacy of my illusions as a foundation for relationship.

>so many, the cold impersonal  presence of the words and the ideas expressed
>on a computer  screen are being translated into emotional connections and
>exciting adventures into long distant relationships.  When  real lives touch
>each others, things change.  What makes it  real is the connection to the
>real life behind the ideas.  As  expressed in the little details.  The
>picture of others, complete  in its context, form and colors.  The knowledge
>that the other  has grandkids, drives a certain kind of car, likes a
>particular  type of breakfast cereal.

All of this fodder for our illusion of knowledge, the stuff of our image of
another person. Not to mention how the same process in self-reference
describes our own limited awareness, our biases, our hunger...my hunger is
to know myself through, in part, the illusory knowledge of another person,
that this mystery of the other helps unfold the mystery of my self,
deepening and widening as cues and information and revelation...reveal the
other and help to remove the veils which clothe my own heart and blind my
own eyes.

Obviously this medium is extremely limited but it opens up an imaginative
space that is made greater by the lack of the visual, gestural, taste and
touch and aroma.

And, I for one, would prefer not to know about your car and cats.

What are you afraid of? What are your dreams? What are your deepest
desires? What makes you angry? What fuels your enthusiams? What provides
you joy?

(Another favorite is: what do you think about your parent's sex life? ;^)  )

These are difficult questions in RL just as they would be here. And it
might be naive to answer them for my benefit here just as it might be to do
so in RL.

Here we don't have the normal cocktail party chat of *What do you do?* And
the endless sharing of insipid and/or humorous anecdotes from yesterday's
worldly struggle.

Out in the open here is a question: who are you? How is this question made
explicit in the sharing space of cyberspace?

The limitation is that one has to type their telling. And let me fill in
the blanks with my illusory imaginings.

-c-
>Storm A. King      Mountain View, California      stormk@netcom.com

Welcome and thanks for your thought provoking post.

--------------------------------- | Stephen Calhoun

Life is the art of drawing sufficient conclusions from insufficient premises.
Notebooks.
--- James Branch





From ctpost@aol.com Tue Oct 17 07:23:49 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: The impersonal nature of interpersonal cyberspace relations
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 14:23:49 -0400


Storm writes:

>>>I realized  that what fosters insight, produces emotional
attachment and  promotes the sense of community in virtual environments is
the completeness of the picture in my head of the other  people here.  Not
just how they feel about the important  issues we share in common, but what
the world looks like  from their eyes.<<<

In these groups, I think we get to know what's in other people's heads, and
we get familiar with their ideas and their logic and sometimes their emotions
and desires. And the time we spend here is mostly in our heads.

We rarely experience other people's sensory impressions--not only what the
world looks like from their eyes, but how it feels to their touch, how it
tastes and sounds to them. The tangible, palpable environment they move in.
The absence of that makes us body-less in cyberspace. And I have trouble
experiencing what you call *interpersonal computer intimacy* when all that's
present are these wispy traces of thought -- no matter how articulate and
coherent. Your catalog of sensory impressions makes you more fully present to
me than most people I've known in this medium. I appreciate your helping me
understand this.

I would like to explore this subject and these experiments further.  For
example, here's an excerpt from something written in my journal. It's
sensory, but different in several ways from what you wrote. Does it affect
your experience of my presence here? Is there a difference?

BAYVIEW BEACH
10am, March 4, 1995

Gray on gray on gray. Cold, light breeze stirs around me. Ski jacket collar
pulled up to my ears. One hand in a glove, holding this page. One hand
gripping this pen, air on the skin like ice. Ice air.

The bench under me hard, sand underfoot soft. The surface of the beach a
texture of fine sand and pebbles, fragments of shells, shreds of old beach
grass scattered among stones. A shrunken peeling from a tangerine on the
sand, a smaller piece near it. Footprints, edges softened by a night, or days
and nights, of wind, winter rain. 

Tiny snow flakes sifting from the gray sky. Three gulls stand, backs to the
wind. One by one they turn and fly off; one calling in that sad gull-scold,
the other two in silence, gone when I look up again from the page. The beach
slowly empties of gulls, then a flock of them suddenly bursts into flight
from behind a slight rise, turns in the air above and settles where they
were.

The water soughs at the edge of the sand; the surface of the sound moves
steadily from left to right. Near my foot, a flat stone, triangular; and in
the depression of a footprint, an almond shaped, dark leaf, motionless, then
moving slightly in the wind. . . .


thx
Ron




From hoon@apk.net Fri Oct 20 06:34:03 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Saving the world
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 13:34:03 -0400


At 10:21 AM 10/5/95, hoon@apk.net wrote:
>-*-
>
>re: from The Quantum Society by Zohar and Marshall
>
>Perhaps the "Second Coming" for which so many people have waited is
>nothing else but this -the realization that we are that "coming." We are
>the messiah. The job of transformation and saving the world is down to us.
>
>---Does the world need to be saved?


Yo! Psyber-L folk? Anybody home?

Transformation easier for me to deal with than saving/salvation. Yet, the
millenium beckons, computer clock chaos, the *age of flowers*, the end of
pisces, ...

But, what to do?

Does sharing in cyber-space lead to broad-based action plans in RL?

Does the expansion of our being in cyber-space help us treat ourselves and
others more kindly in RL?

Or, does cyber-activity take us away from our RL involvement?








----------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun

"Only the mediocre are always at their best."

>>  Jean Giraudoux (1882 - 1944)





From hoon@apk.net Fri Oct 20 06:35:17 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Public & Private
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 13:35:17 -0400


>
>---Where in the public dimension -for you- is meaning still alive?
>

Right now in Cleveland we are in a total frenzy about our baseball team's
return to the world series after a forty-one year drought.

Why is it so much fun sitting with forty+ thousand screaming people rooting
for the home team?

And pride for our town amongst a failed economy and a devastated school
system and public safety problems in many neighborhoods...pride is rising
due to... baseball.

But, I'm a fan and it is hugely enjoyable, and public, and meaningful.



---------------------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun

"If lawyers are disbarred and clergymen defrocked, doesn't
 it follow that electricians can be delighted; musicians
 denoted; cowboys deranged; models deposed; tree surgeons
 debarked and dry cleaners depressed ?"

>>  Virginia Ostman





From hoon@apk.net Fri Oct 20 06:36:57 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Common Scores
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 13:36:57 -0400


At 10:23 AM 10/5/95, hoon@apk.net wrote:
>-*-
>
>re: from The Quantum Society by Zohar and Marshall
>
>In advesarial debate I always see the other as *other*, as my opponent. I
>set out to defend myself against him or to best him. I "win" or "lose" a
>debate. In dialogue the other is my partner or fellow explorer ina
>mutually creative enterprise of discovery. "in dialogue," as David Bohm
>says, "everybody wins." Together we win through to a new, mutually
>welcomed position. In debate we are like boxers throwing our best punches
>and hoping the other hits the canvas. In dialogue we are like dancers
>exploring (and creatively discovering) our common score.
>
>---Is win/win a realistic objective?
>
>-*-

Do we have to give up conversion of the *other* and each other? Yet, we
need to be in dialogues for which mutual conversion is possible too!

What is the difference between conversion and transformation?

What about being open to change, willing to leave your own/owned views behind?

easier or more difficult in cyber-dialogue?

-----------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun


"If at first you don't succeed, try again. Then
 quit. No use being a damn fool about it."

>>  W. C. Fields





From hoon@apk.net Fri Oct 20 06:38:10 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Radical Family
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 13:38:10 -0400


At 10:25 AM 10/5/95, hoon@apk.net wrote:
>-*-
>
>re: from The quantum Society by Zohar and Marshall
>
>I believe that the postmodern society needs the family, but it needs a
>radically new style of family life to be the building block and the
>training ground of the new society we are creating. It needs a family that
>is founded on the kind of committed intimate relationship that puts
>participants in touch with their potential selves, with their areas of
>potential growth. As we have seen, this kind of relationship (where we not
>only seek but our willing to meet our *other half*) calls upon us to
>confront difficult issues, to face pain and uncertainty and the unknown.
>It is not "comfortable" or "safe," but can be creative.
>
>
>---what kind of community would *you* create?

What is missing in our experience may get projected onto relationships and
groups...

example, children of divorce in cyber-space...needs for family different
than others there? How might one look for the experience of transference
through the mother or father role list participants might *play*.

Is the moderator in a special position in this regard?


------------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun


"In times of profound change, the learners inherit the earth, while the
learned find themselves beautifully equipped to deal with a world that no
longer exists."

    >>>Al Rogers, Global SchoolHouse Network





From hoon@apk.net Sat Oct 21 04:39:27 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: public and Private
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:39:27 -0400


At 5:58 PM 10/19/95, DSBond@aol.com wrote:
>Stephen:
>
>Good for you! Baseball rules! I think there is something rather archetypal
>about the "participation mystique" of sitting in the baseball stadium! I know
>that the symbolic dimension of baseball (circumambulating the center in four
>stages to "produce" a run, also do you know why it is important that that
>bases are 90 feet apart? Hint: it has to do with the significance of 360 and
>the fact that Andrew Doubleday was a theosophist).
>
>It's also good for Cleveland. What a hellava team.
>
>
>Steve
>
>Disappointed and still waiting in Boston

Fascinating info about the quaternary aspects of the *diamond* in this
jewel of a sport.

One example of the participation mystique (an unthinking/feeling
identification with the collective,) which comes up in this case, is the
guy who calls up our sports radio station here and complains about all the
fans *not giving their all* or those dispicable *fair-weather fans*. What's
he so threatened by? Hmmm.

So much is wrapped up in the passion for sports and victory! After a forty
one year dry spell this town is about ready to burst with it all. Throw in
the R&R Hall of Fame and it's been Cleveland's year...and next year is the
town's 200th aniversery. Thank goodness we have the Browns and Cavs and
lots of crime to keep us with one foot near the ground...or this town would
be in orbit!

I lived in Vermont for 17 years amongst many long suffering Bosox fans and
all I can tell you is: hang in there and hope the sox enhance their already
strong team for next year. They could've gone all the way this year...

I'm just glad the Tribe is in the series. Imagine it! Yikes!

----------------------------------------------STEPHEN CALHOUN * go Tribe!

"Why should we be in such desperate haste to succeed,
and in such desperate enterprises ? If a man does
not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is
because he hears a different drummer."

>>  Henry David Thoreau





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Oct 21 23:28:53 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Saving the world
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 10:28:53 GMT

Stephen,

On Thu, 19 Oct 1995 13:34:03 -0400, hoon@apk.net wrote:

> Yo! Psyber-L folk? Anybody home?

Ive bee watching  but have seen this silence as quite unusual.

> Transformation easier for me to deal with than saving/salvation. Yet, the
> millenium beckons, computer clock chaos, the *age of flowers*, the end of
> pisces, ...

We struggle away to make it better . . . it can do with
improvement.

> But, what to do?

> Does sharing in cyber-space lead to broad-based action plans in RL?

Probably in the way that reading books does.  I also think that
it transform patterns of cooperation.  I am working on a
constitution for an incorporated society  I wish they all had
email wed get it doen in a whole new way.

> Does the expansion of our being in cyber-space help us treat ourselves and
> others more kindly in RL?

I feel more like a citizen of the world.  Does that count?

> Or, does cyber-activity take us away from our RL involvement?

This is the crunch  it is a conflict and not fully integrated
aspect of our lives  perhaps a little like the motorcar before
there were roads . . . Not enough of the people I interact with
in RL have email.  Hence they are not sharing in these
discussions, they have to be rung  they are somehow behind.  So
at the moment there is a gulf, but I imagine that email will be
taught at school, that people will have web pages and all that
will be integrated with email very soon, and that people will
have laptops . . .  in other words they will become more like me!
Is that a fantasy?

Walter
_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Oct 21 23:28:56 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Radical Family
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 10:28:56 GMT

Stephen,

> How might one look for the experience of transference
> through the mother or father role list participants might *play*.
> 
> Is the moderator in a special position in this regard?

You asked a while back how I see this band of participants here.
This question is more general but I think we can explore it here
more fully, experientially. Here is my image and placing and
exploration of gp sociometry.

I think I have a definite _position_ as the founder etc. of the
list, not only in my eyes but I sense it in others  it is also
to do with my age and I guess experience.  (All this is only how
I see it of course.) 

I see us all in a cyber place of some sort  a landscape  it is
artificial, no plants animals or children,  pleasant for all that
 Psybernet is an amphitheater with a small stage area in the
centre.  I don't actually see the audience  they are out of
sight.  I do see those who have participated.  Victoria, just out
there on the very edge, partially obscured, Steve Bond, Peter
Davey present on the edge. Sue, Stuart, as occasional readers and
occasional contributors.  I am conscious of their presence  I
know them from RL.  I am more certain of Joshs presence  too
busy to write a lot, but an avid reader.   Dan R. is here at
times, over worked and unable to adevote the energy to the detail
that Psybernet seems to demand.  Then closer in are the more
active  Miles, and Tama because he is also in Dunedin.  Then
there is the more central core each of us leaping onto the stage
fairly regularly.  Ron is solid here for me  of all those who I
have never met in RL he is the most present  having had
connection on other lists and in email.  Stephen, right here with
a firm commitment and working hard.

My placing of people is of course a certain transference.  I can
add more though.  I feel a peership with Ron, Stuart, Steve Bond.
Josh,  Miles and Tama I see my self in a parental sort of role 
mostly so with Josh  as it is not even transference!  Stephen
and Dan R, seem to me to be somewhere in between  friends, in my
mind they are a similar age.  No other strong associations come
to mind.  With Dan R and Stuart these associations extend way
beyond this group into active RL.


Have I missed people?  Does this feel mutual to others?  Is
something out of kilter with your perception.  


Walter



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From joe_hendren@link.southern.co.nz Sun Oct 22 01:20:00 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: I'm a newbie
From: Joe Hendren <joe_hendren@link.southern.co.nz>
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 00:20:00

Gidday.  I rang this BBS because it looked interesting.

I am a part time University student at Canty.  In terms of my degree I am 
starting to tend towards a Psyc - Cog Sci - Philosophy of mind.  Am I only 
validated for 4 weeks?  Can I have a look at Youth conference.  I am going to 
do PSYC 104 next year but I have done PHIL 137 (computers minds logic).

I was interested why you think there is a link between psyc, and metaphor and 
esp. myth.  It could be argued that metaphor and myth can be explained under 
behaviourism like any other part of life but I thought these were more 
socialogical occurances.  Metaphor and myth are different depending on what 
society you belong to; are you including them as an essential part of the 
psyche?

Sorry if this message is not quite up with the play termwise :-)

Joe Hendren.

* Origin: Psybernet N.Z. +64-3-365-6876  V42b  (3:770/270)



From hschr@nwu.edu Sun Oct 22 03:04:03 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Hello
From: "Herbert W. Schroeder" <hschr@nwu.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 09:04:03 -0500


Hello,
I have been following this mailing list for some weeks now, and I think it
is time for me to introduce myself. My name is Herb Schroeder, and I live
and work in Evanston, Illinois, USA - a suburb of Chicago. I am an
environmental psychologist working with the U.S. Forest Service. We have a
small research office here that studies social aspects of forestry,
people-forest interactions, and that kind of thing. At present I am most
interested in the "fuzzier" aspects of the human-nature relationship -
emotion, symbolism, and spiritual values associated with natural settings. I
have been interested in Jungian psychology for many years, and have applied
some Jungian ideas in my work. More recently I have been delving into
phenomenological psych. and experiential psych., and have found much of
value there as well.

I have not been able to follow all the discussions on this list very
closely, due to lack of time and less than optimal access to internet. I am
new to the internet, and still very tentative as to how involved I want to
get with this medium. But I like the thoughtful character of interactions on
this list, and the respect with which participants treat each other and
their ideas. I would like to be more than an invisible "lurker" here, and so
will contribute when I can.

------------------------------------------------
Herb Schroeder (hschr@nwu.edu)
Evanston, Illinois
USA
------------------------------------------------




From dsbond@aol.com Sun Oct 22 05:47:54 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Radical Family (and edges)
From: dsbond@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 12:47:54 -0400


Walter wrote:

>I see us all in a cyber place of some sort u a landscape u it is
>artificial, no plants animals or children,  pleasant for all that
>u Psybernet is an amphitheater with a small stage area in the
>centre.  I don't actually see the audience u they are out of
>sight.  I do see those who have participated.  Victoria, just out
>there on the very edge, partially obscured, Steve Bond, Peter
>Davey present on the edge.

Just a note from the edge, which I find a helpful metaphor. I think you're
right, Walter, about the way this cyber space seems to "populate" itself with
figures moving in and out, to the center and around the edges, so that out of
nothingness players appear on the stage. It's very like a play, in that
sense, isn't it? I'm thinking of Godspell, which opens with a dark, blank
stage where John the Baptist enter from the rear, and all of a sudden the
players enter from behind you and then go to the stage and begin to take on
personalities of their own. It is also like the process of discovering an
inner life, where once all was a great unknown, and then as one begins to pay
attention to one's dreams the inner landscape is populated with reappearing
characters, some of whom are quite central, some of whom appear and disappear
quite unpredictably and for unknown reasons.

It would say the transference, then, in this case is not quite like the
projections that settle on people in RL, but more like the reactions evoked
by a cast of characters. The "cyber-ego", to coin a phrase (ala the so-called
"dream ego), relates to the drama, in this case perhaps more like an active
imagination than a dream. 

Which leads to the question, what is the difference between the cyber ego and
the waking ego?

Steve Bond



From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Oct 22 12:37:21 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: BBS
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 23:37:21 GMT

Joe and others,

BBS.
Welcome to the BBS Joe.
I am making two replies to your message.  This first one is just
to have a rant about the BBS.  Strangely enough this is one of
the first messages that comes via the BBS to this list in years.
Sues is the other but It seems that it did not get sent properly
to the list!  I am seriously thinking of closing the BBS and
doing all this work exclusively on the Internet.  

I cant keep a BBS up to date especially as it is very rarely
used.  The software for the gating is difficult to manage.  I am
just not up to it.  I felt this really strongly today as Sues
message did not come to the list.  IE it came to the BBS but did
not get sent out to the net.  I despair of making that work.  I
am having difficulty upgrading the software and these attempts
often take all weekend for little reward.  Yet it runs lists
adequately and acts a s a file server for archives etc on the
Internet.  I am not ready to let it go.   Arggg.

I need to find a way of running lists in other ways, and having
an FTP site.  These things are not easy for private individuals.
Making this a more commercial venture also seems beyond reach.
Despite this negativity I have not given up on wanting to do
group work in cyberspace.  I guess it means forming a good liason
with an Internet provider.  One of the reasons I have kept the
BBS this long is that to date I have not trusted the Internet
providers locally  that is still the case  it is not personal,
just that their interests lie elsewhere (in one case) and in
another that they do not respond to email!  And I would hate to
be at the mercy of a system that might fold or change hands etc.

I feel really stuck with this.

> Can I have a look at Youth conference.  

It is inactive and I need to delete it from the system.  Joe you
have total access at present  this conference is it!  Please
stay tuned, I wont be pulling the plug on the BBS side of for
ages if ever  I am just having a despairing rant!

It is more than that too  Id appreciate some advice from anyone
with more experience either with BBSs or lists on the Internet.
The "deep" structure of list ownership and management is of vital
importance to the group dynamics and comment on that would be of
interest.  

BTW  I am encroaching on the subject matter of the Netdynam list
 but I am way behind there  also I like to discuss the behind
the scenes stuff here.  


Walter 







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Oct 22 12:37:26 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: I'm a newbie
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 23:37:26 GMT


Joe, 

> I was interested why you think there is a link between psyc, and metaphor and 
> esp. myth.  It could be argued that metaphor and myth can be explained under 
> behaviourism like any other part of life but I thought these were more 
> socialogical occurances.  Metaphor and myth are different depending on what 
> society you belong to; are you including them as an essential part of the 
> psyche?

Of course everything can be explained without reference to the
psyche at all.  From a certain logical positivist perspective the
psyche or soul is just one more meaningless metaphysical concept.
That is a very bleak view of the world, one that blinds us to
experience.

In my experience there is "within" us a world of drama, and story
that comes alive in psychotherapy, groups etc.  Dreams are one
window into this realm.  The imaginal work  eg recalling
memories and making reflections  is another.  Yet another is the
relationship circle that one does these things in  be it the
relationship with a therapist or with a group, or simply with
oneself.  

Where myth comes in is that the images in a dream can be seen as
containing a pattern, for example:  I have been dreaming about a
crowded youth hostel where I am unable to put down a pile of
washing, because there are so many other piles.   And another
one, Ill quote a snippet from my dream log:

>>>I wanted to give the others my name so that they might call me if they needed me, -- I did not have my card, and then tried to write it on bits of paper, but there was no room on them for my name, it was covered with other peoples scribbles and names.  <<<

I have no doubt that there is a pattern in the two dream snippets
of there being no room for me?  But where?  In my relationship
with Kate?  In the world? Here in the Psybernet group?  For part
of me with all the other parts?

The latter seems to fit best.  What I am getting to is that there
is a universal theme here  and I bet there are countless myths
about thether not being enough room.  (cant think of any right
now! -- please help!).  

Even in different cultures there are similarities of pattern in
the myths.  Sky is often the father  mother the earth, this is
easily seen a s a structure of the psyche, that all things "up"
have a certain feeling tone: clear light, crisp, air, flying,
open.  Things "down" are often dark, warm, moist, earthy,
grounded, solid.  

It is not through some great theory that I come to this  it is
through experience and listening to many people speak of their
innermost lives.  

I hope it makes some sense.

> Sorry if this message is not quite up with the play termwise :-)

Your message is fine!  Hope you find your way back to the
Psybernet Conference

Walter 



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Oct 22 12:37:29 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: The impersonal nature of interpersonal cyberspace relations
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 23:37:29 GMT

On Mon, 16 Oct 1995 14:23:49 -0400, ctpost@aol.com wrote:

Ron, 

I enjoyed participation in your moment on the beach.  Although it
was a description of the scene I also read it a little as
expressing something of the inner you.  Perhaps it cant be
avoided.

> Storm writes:

I have not been able to relate to his peice too well.  It seems
to me that it is an example of "The impersonal nature of
interpersonal cyberspace relations" In so far as it has been
posted to several groups.  In a way I have been waiting for Storm
to respond to the two thoughtful replies here  I hope he does.
It is rare for me but I have not wanted to enter into the
discussion  even thought the subject is of interest to me.  

Ron wrote:

> And the time we spend here is mostly in our heads.
> 
> We rarely experience other people's sensory impressions--not only what the
> world looks like from their eyes, but how it feels to their touch, how it
> tastes and sounds to them. The tangible, palpable environment they move in.

I wanted to respond in kind  to give you a window (your word
from way back Ron) of my world.  But there is so much to choose
from.  This laptop?  This table?  I am here on the deck, in the
sun  wonderful warmth.  It is Sunday of a long weekend and I am
almost at peace . . .  ah!  I cant stay with the description of
the outer world  I go to my state of being  almost at peace . .
.    

Enough.


Walter 




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From ctpost@aol.com Mon Oct 23 00:40:15 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Radical Family
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 07:40:15 -0400


Walter writes:

>>>I see us all in a cyber place of some sort u a landscape u it is
artificial, no plants animals or children,  pleasant for all that
u Psybernet is an amphitheater with a small stage area in the
centre.<<<

Increasingly, I find that I am returning to a postal service model of
communication here. I look for clues in subscribers' posts that help me place
them geographically in RL. Participating means getting and sending *letters*
-- but from my computer instead of the mailbox by my front door. And I
imagine everyone, wherever they are on the globe, with the appropriate time
differential, going about their daily lives, of which getting and sending
these letters is a big or small part. Could be because I think of a post as
essentially written rather than spoken communication, as I've said here
before.

Listening to Walter describe how he is simultaneously present in RL and
cyberspace reminds me of when I was a teacher. I was simultaneously in RL and
in the classroom much of the time. And the students in those classes (for
better or worse) were mentally with me, even though we met together in the
classroom less than 3 hours a week. I believe this came from my sense of
responsibility for leading and directing the class. I don't experience that
anywhere in my life now: not in cyberspace, not on the job. 

Ron




From ctpost@aol.com Mon Oct 23 03:30:19 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Hello
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 10:30:19 -0400


Herb:

Welcome to the list. 

>>>At present I am most interested in the "fuzzier" aspects of the
human-nature relationship - emotion, symbolism, and spiritual values
associated with natural settings. I have been interested in Jungian
psychology for many years, and have applied some Jungian ideas in my work.<<<

What a wonderful converging of interests. Isn't the journey into the
unconscious often represented as a trip *into the woods*? Would love to hear
more about this.

thx
Ron 



From ctpost@aol.com Mon Oct 23 03:30:26 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: impersonal nature
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 10:30:26 -0400


Walter writes:

>>>Although it was a description of the scene I also read it a little as
expressing something of the inner you.  Perhaps it canAt be avoided.<<<

Yes, perception is theory driven. What I see tells you something about what I
want/need to see. So desire makes its presence known, disguised as a catalog
of sensory images. 

thx
Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Mon Oct 23 03:30:29 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Radical Family
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 10:30:29 -0400


Steve Bond wrote:

>>>figures moving in and out, to the center and around the edges, so that out
of nothingness players appear on the stage. It's very like a play, in that
sense, isn't it?<<<

For me, it's less like a play and more like the script of a play. 

thx
Ron 



From aaa198@agora.ulaval.ca Mon Oct 23 12:01:23 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: 
From: Jean-Francois Vezina <aaa198@agora.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sun, 22 Oct 1995 19:01:23 -0400


unsubscribe psyber-l
__________________________________
 Jean-Francois Vezina
 aaa198@agora.ulaval.ca

 President of the Jungian Circle
 of Quebec

 Tel and Fax:(418) 688-JUNG

 C.P. 38018, Co.P. M.Bourgeois
 Quebec,Canada G1S 2N0
________________________________




From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Mon Oct 23 21:26:41 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Wahay! I think I might start a new subject line...
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 21:26:41 +1300 (NDT)




I've been a bit stage left recently - to the side pretending to be 
dead. This is partly because I have exams, but also because I 
subscribed to Netdynam and got so swamped by mail I couldn't handle the 
psychic strain, and so the Psyber-L got lost in the  flurry.
This is, however, completely irrelevant. The reason for this message is 
that I felt that it would be cool to quote the following line, simply to 
say that I thought it was elucidating, and thanks for putting it down so 
stunningly clear. It may be old hat to some of you more experienced 
pyscho-tronic types but anyway I'm gonna breed it and throw it around a 
bit...


<Walter>
>    Of course everything can be explained without reference to the
> psyche at all.  From a certain logical positivist perspective the
> psyche or soul is just one more meaningless metaphysical concept.
> That is a very bleak view of the world, one that blinds us to
> experience. 

Sorry if this message is not quite up with the play brainwise, but hey :)





From hoon@apk.net Tue Oct 24 05:45:15 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: travels in ND
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:45:15 -0400


At 9:26 PM 10/23/95, Miles Thompson wrote:
>I've been a bit stage left recently - to the side pretending to be
>dead. This is partly because I have exams, but also because I
>subscribed to Netdynam and got so swamped by mail I couldn't handle the
>psychic strain, and so the Psyber-L got lost in the  flurry.

Swamped is a good description...or buried. How many of us Psyber-L 'ers
wandered over to NETDYNAMICS, I wonder?

Am I the only one who gets a feeling of being in some kind of communion
with this group by the way that I can just lurk in ND, jaw dropping, maybe
drooping, and then wander back here feeling more at home? There: being a
tourist...it feels like to me.

More space here...longer breaths. Some in-between. Feel like taking in my
ND observations and bringing them back here to talk about...net dynamics!

One observation about nd in ND; post your observations there and you might
get flamed.

Bye4now!

     "Nature is visible thought."

                                Heinrich Heine





From hoon@apk.net Tue Oct 24 05:47:08 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Wahay! I think I might start a new subject line...
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:47:08 -0400


>
><Walter>
>>    Of course everything can be explained without reference to the
>> psyche at all.  From a certain logical positivist perspective the
>> psyche or soul is just one more meaningless metaphysical concept.
>> That is a very bleak view of the world, one that blinds us to
>> experience.
>
>Sorry if this message is not quite up with the play brainwise, but hey :)

Actually, as a life long subjectivist empiricist :) I'd call the conceit of
logical positivism a meaningless metaphysical concept.

How does one interpret this great mystery of being alive, or being perhaps
a butterfly's dream?

For me: with gratitude, joyfully.

Psychologically, we've mentioned before the weak thinking that scurries in
the dark shadows of hyper-rationality...

Luckily: we can't *all* agree on what a specific word means, ruins
irrevocably the so-called predicate logic (in the domain of language) but
enriches the inference...makes for a lot of beauty and difference and
wonderment...

(I open the box and there are *two* cats...both alive!)  ;^}


Best to all!







------------------------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun
     "Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness."


Woody Allen





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Oct 24 23:27:39 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: travels in ND
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:27:39 GMT

HooN and Miles,

Miles:
> >I've been a bit stage left recently - to the side pretending to be
> >dead. This is partly because I have exams, but also because I
> >subscribed to Netdynam and got so swamped by mail I couldn't handle the
> >psychic strain, and so the Psyber-L got lost in the  flurry.

HooN:
> Swamped is a good description...or buried. How many of us Psyber-L 'ers
> wandered over to NETDYNAMICS, I wonder?

I hope you have mail filters working, I'd hate to think of this
little message being lost in among all the net dynam stuff!  I
get it -- and am reading it and quite enjoying it, but am way
behind.  _Too far behind to contribute_ (apart from being too
busy -- damn! -- and wanting to write more here).  That is an
interesting dynamic in itself -- when does mail become to stale
to respond to?  Perhaps when there are more than three or four
other posts still unread?  

> More space here...longer breaths. Some in-between. Feel like taking in my
> ND observations and bringing them back here to talk about...net dynamics!

Yes!  Exactly how I feel -- like responding here to what comes up
there!  Peculiar.  

One thought is that the sort of research they speak of a lot on
that list is anathema to me.  It is the research which attempts
to treat psych and social phenomena like objects.  It was
epitomised by someone who wrote that the ND list would _not_ be a
good list to study.  The exact opposite is true here in the
Psybernet description there is the idea that this is a form of
_experiential learning_, in other words that this is a place to
self reflectively learn about the net dynamics.  I think we are
doing that. 

List facilitation for example can be explored here by discussion
of how it is done here -- there is a specific invite in the
description that we might do that here.  I must say that
facilitation (moderation) to date consists mainly of a commitment
to be present here -- to post the description from time to time
(and modify it slightly as I go along).  These two factors are
fairly unobtrusive but probably important factors.  Another
factor in the dynamics here could be the WWW pages which attract
some and repel others.  I have not promoted this list in
NEW-LISTS and am dubious about doing so.

> One observation about nd in ND; post your observations there and you might
> get flamed.

I will soon have the Psybernet archives up, and you will see that
it can happen here too!  (Though I would not recommend raking
over those old coals) 


Walter.



 



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Tue Oct 24 23:31:59 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Wahay! I think I might start a new subject line...
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 23:31:59 +1300 (NDT)




On Mon, 23 Oct 1995 hoon wrote;

> Actually, as a life long subjectivist empiricist :) I'd call the conceit of
> logical positivism a meaningless metaphysical concept.
Me too!
Don't get me wrong.
The reason I quoted the below was on account of how I liked the way 
it attacked (um) "logical postivism" on the grounds that it was "bleak". 
Bleak yeah, how true. For me, this is a very compelling reason 
why I am not into it. Stultifyingly boring solid and dead in fact.

> 
> >
> ><Walter>
> >>    Of course everything can be explained without reference to the
> >> psyche at all.  From a certain logical positivist perspective the
> >> psyche or soul is just one more meaningless metaphysical concept.
> >> That is a very bleak view of the world, one that blinds us to
> >> experience.

Makes me think of how little *life* seems to mean to the likes of 
John Kehoe, for whom the "otherworld" is simply a tool, a small 
playground in which a logical postivist can go trampling around with 
great big jackboots laying down how things are going to be in 
"imagination land" where things are "easy to change" and (worse still) 
all for the purpose of acheiving mundane dead logical postivist aims 
like giving us a "succesful"life, "fulfilling" relationships, and "good 
health". God how terribly unfullfilling, and dreary life would be if 
that was all there was to it ! -  If all the wondrous dreams and myths 
and reality/fantasies that go to make up where we are coming from and 
going to didn't exist and the meshes and webs and dreams that bind us 
all together were "just" illusion.
We seem to agree....
> How does one interpret this great mystery of being alive, or being perhaps
> a butterfly's dream?
> 
> For me: with gratitude, joyfully.
> 
> Psychologically, we've mentioned before the weak thinking that scurries in
> the dark shadows of hyper-rationality...
Yeah and the shadows, mustn't forget them, though it seems a common 
enough fate.

> Luckily: we can't *all* agree on what a specific word means, ruins
> irrevocably the so-called predicate logic (in the domain of language) but
> enriches the inference...makes for a lot of beauty and difference and
> wonderment...
> 
> (I open the box and there are *two* cats...both alive!)  ;^}

Got my exam on Fuzzy logic and NN tommorow, so heres something that 
relates to what you say above, and to this thread, but also to my exam.
In a fuzzy system, we model "human" like thought by having fuzzy ideas 
for instance about the temperature of a day, it could be "cool", 
"reasonably warm" or "hot". Ok thats fine. What is interesting and like 
the above, is that in a fuzzy system, the computer may think, at the same 
time, that the temperature is "cool" to degree 20% and "reasonably warm" 
to degree 43%. At the same time. this makes me think, in a way I have 
tended to accept the idea that when I think about, say the temperature at 
the moment, I think, ok its kinda somewhere between warm and hot at the 
moment sort of closer to warm. but now I think that is not really the way 
I think, in fact I kinda like the idea that I wander around thinking that 
it is both cold hot warm and reasonably ok all at the same time, but just 
to varying degrees. Do you know what I mean? Like when you think that you 
want to go to some do, and when you think that you like totally think of 
all sorts of feelings about how you want to go to it, and yet at the same 
time you have a whole lot of feelings that you don't want to go to it. 
Its not really a question of having "mixed feelings" its more a question 
of being in "two minds" like all the time... Anyway I must to bed. and 
yeah, I like it here where it is sufficiently quiet (except for me!! :)) 
to get to know who y'alls are, and to be able to listen to you.

Miles
Ps wish me luck!
bye





From hoon@apk.net Wed Oct 25 02:19:18 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Wahay! I think I might start a new subject line...
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 09:19:18 -0400


At 11:31 PM 10/24/95, Miles Thompson wrote:
-snip-

>health". God how terribly unfullfilling, and dreary life would be if
>that was all there was to it ! -  If all the wondrous dreams and myths
>and reality/fantasies that go to make up where we are coming from and
>going to didn't exist and the meshes and webs and dreams that bind us
>all together were "just" illusion.

Illusions are real...now there's a paradox! I've, since I was a teenager,
followed the three way dialectic: yes, no, a little bit of both...and
tended toward the *both* side of affairs...your points below speak to this
fuzziness too.

It's interesting to see how certain worlds don't inter-penetrate. But, the
problem with logical empiricism is that it is illogical. Finally. Hey,
maybe that is it's hope too!

Do you ever wonder why the BIG questions haven't been solved, put to rest STS?

If the mystic has been THERE he/she won't care to prove it so, or care
should it be dismissed by whomever. If you've had even one dream effect
your waking life, it won't matter whether somebody else calls it neural
chatter. And if you should lie down on a clear starry night and look up and
forget the body behind your eyes, behind your looking, and it should cause
your chest to expand, your breath to deepen, and tears come to your eyes...

-snip-

>Its not really a question of having "mixed feelings" its more a question
>of being in "two minds" like all the time... Anyway I must to bed. and
>yeah, I like it here where it is sufficiently quiet (except for me!! :))
>to get to know who y'alls are, and to be able to listen to you.
>
>Miles
>Ps wish me luck!
>bye

Fantastic *being in two minds*! At least, right?


----------------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun

It ain't what we don't know that gets us in trouble, but what we know ain't
so.





From hoon@apk.net Wed Oct 25 17:54:23 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Radical Family
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 00:54:23 -0400


At 10:30 AM 10/22/95, ctpost@aol.com wrote:
>Steve Bond wrote:
>
>>>>figures moving in and out, to the center and around the edges, so that out
>of nothingness players appear on the stage. It's very like a play, in that
>sense, isn't it?<<<
>
>For me, it's less like a play and more like the script of a play.
>
>thx
>Ron

*Edges* and *nothingness* drove me to find out a vague reference. Ahhh:

^Indeed he is completely modern only when he has come to the very edge of
the world, leaving behind him all that has been discarded and outgrown, and
acknowledged that he stands before a void out of which all things may
grow.^

[furthermore]

^An honest profession of meodernity means voluntarily declaring bankruptcy,
taking the vows of poverty and chastity in a new sense, and-what is still
more pianful-renouncing the halo which history bestows as a mark of its
sanction. To be unhistorical is the promethean sin, and in this sense
modern man lives in sin. A higher level of consciousness is like a burden
of guilt.^

[so, in response to the thread Saving the World as much as Steve's thoughts
above]

^Now there is the danger that consciousness of the present may lead to an
elation based upon illusion: the illusion, namely, that we are the
culmination of the history of mankind, the fulfilment and end product of
countless centuries. If we grant this, we should understand that it is no
more than the proud acknowledgement of our destitution: we are also the
disappointment of the hopes and expectations of the ages.^

[Carl, being on a roll, writes later:]

^This *psychological* interest of the present time shows that man expects
something from psychic life that he has not received from the outer world.^

excerpted from "The Modern Spiritual Problem", Modern Man In Search of a Soul


We're edging closer bringing something of our inner outward but also into
this net...turning away perhaps from the little voids in our own
inner/outer landscapes...

What is it that isn't right, a little off, and how do we use the connecting
here to reconnect ourselves?

As above so below...then several thousand years later Jung sees this: as
below so above.

How might that *below* move here, into these textual fields; weave through
the improvised scripts; block the action on our stage?

How would others weigh in? Inner / Outer ??? How might a person use this
kind of forum to dig deeper into his/her psyche?

Do any inner reasons bring you here?





----------------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun

"At times I feel as if I am spread out over the landscape and inside
things, and am myself living in every tree, in the splashing of the
waves, in the clouds and the animals that come and go, in the
procession of the seasons." C.G.Jung





From hoon@apk.net Wed Oct 25 17:57:56 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: travels in ND
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 00:57:56 -0400


My bias projected, as great lover of improvised music(s), Jazz especially,
is that the larger the combo the more formal the coordination must
be...unless cacophony is one of the goals.

Also, as improvising musicians understand, as much as things can be
sketched out in advance, it's the subtlety of the moment and the mutualized
feel for the shifting state of affairs that make the slightest kinds of
cues and gestures and even telepathy of some sort the signposts for
intergroup communication in an improvising ensemble.

Point is NET DYNAMICS is big band, Psyber-L is quintet. Tighter, more
subtle music happening here.

Which must make Walter...Miles Davis.  ;=}


---------------------Stephen Calhoun
Dean of the Faculties
51 Pegasi Community University



Irreverence is my only sacred cow.
-Paul Krassner





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Oct 26 12:25:59 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: travels in ND
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 23:25:59 GMT

Steve the HooN

> Point is NET DYNAMICS is big band, Psyber-L is quintet. Tighter, more
> subtle music happening here.

Not my intention at a conscious level . . . but now that I see
it, I want what we have and not the big band.  And why not --
"we" have ND if we want it -- no need for another.  

> Which must make Walter...Miles Davis.  ;=}

Wow,

Ah, must have another listen -- perhaps with a new slant.  I have
always wondered what the musical equivalent of Psybernet is --
and the art and lit equivalent . . .  


Walter.







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Oct 26 12:25:59 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: Re: travels in ND
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 23:25:59 GMT

Steve the HooN

> Point is NET DYNAMICS is big band, Psyber-L is quintet. Tighter, more
> subtle music happening here.

Not my intention at a conscious level . . . but now that I see
it, I want what we have and not the big band.  And why not --
"we" have ND if we want it -- no need for another.  

> Which must make Walter...Miles Davis.  ;=}

Wow,

Ah, must have another listen -- perhaps with a new slant.  I have
always wondered what the musical equivalent of Psybernet is --
and the art and lit equivalent . . .  


Walter.







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hschr@nwu.edu Thu Oct 26 14:59:11 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Hello
From: "Herbert W. Schroeder" <hschr@nwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 20:59:11 -0500


>
>...... Isn't the journey into the
>unconscious often represented as a trip *into the woods*? Would love to hear
>more about this.
>
>thx
>Ron 
>
>
    Yes, a forest is a good symbol for the unconscious. The heroes and
heroines of fairy tales often begin their adventures by entering the forest.
It's a dark and mysterious place, full of both beauty and danger. Wild,
instinctive creatures live there. The natural processes of the forest go
their own way without regard for the human ego's goals and intentions. 

    Several years ago I noticed that the most popular event at the nature
center next to our office had nothing to do with nature education in the
usual sense -- it was the Halloween haunted trail, where volunteers would
dress up as ghosts and monsters and leap out from behind trees to scare the
visitors. People loved it! I wondered if part of the appeal in that event
was in being to able to turn one's imagination loose and momentarily be
immersed in a mythical way of experiencing nature. Quite a contrast to the
de-mythologized view of the forest taken by scientific ecology and the
resource management professions. 

    The Forest Service, for which I work, sees the forest mainly from an
objective, logical positivist perspective. I have been trying to
counterbalance that by writing about symbol, spirit, and archetype in
connection with forests. The response I have received from at least some
people within the agency has been surprisingly positive.

    I'd like to go into this more, but I've just returned home from a very
tiring three day business trip, and need to wind down (i.e. sit and stare at
the wall) for a while before going to bed. I'll try to follow up in future
posts. By the way, I've written some papers and book chapters on the subject
of symbolic and spiritual values of trees, forests, and nature. If anyone is
interested in seeing them, let me know by E-mail.

Regards,
Herb

------------------------------------------------
Herb Schroeder (hschr@nwu.edu)
Evanston, Illinois
USA
------------------------------------------------




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Oct 26 22:38:18 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: Re: Wahay! I think I might start a new subject line...
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:38:18 GMT

Hi Miles and All,

On Tue, 24 Oct 1995 23:31:59 +1300 (NDT), Miles Thompson
<miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Oct 1995 hoon wrote;
> 
> > Actually, as a life long subjectivist empiricist :) I'd call the conceit of
> > logical positivism a meaningless metaphysical concept.
> Me too!

> Don't get me wrong.
> The reason I quoted the below was on account of how I liked the way 
> it attacked (um) "logical postivism" on the grounds that it was "bleak". 

I am enjoying  the feedback on the comments I made to Joe Hendren
about the psyche etc. ( I hope you have managed to get back to
the BBS Joe.)


> Bleak yeah, how true. For me, this is a very compelling reason 
> why I am not into it. Stultifyingly boring solid and dead in fact.

I attacked it also because it blinds us to experience -- I was
thinking about that today, how subjective empiricism as Hoon
calls it is hidden from some people, and how difficult it is to
show them. 

> Makes me think of how little *life* seems to mean to the likes of 
> John Kehoe, for whom the "otherworld" is simply a tool, a small 

Psychological imperialism.

Miles makes a point on how we think:
> Its not really a question of having "mixed feelings" its more a question 
> of being in "two minds" like all the time... 

Good point.  I often get people to put objects in a sculpture to
see all the things that are going on at once, they sit in the
middle and I speak the words they attribute to each item -- it is
amazing to watch what happens when all these aspects are made
conscious.  In psychodrama jargon we call it concretising and
role reversal.

> Miles
> Ps wish me luck!

Good Luck!  (sorry if it is a bit late, anyway you probably don't
need it)


Walter.





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Oct 26 22:38:18 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: Wahay! I think I might start a new subject line...
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:38:18 GMT

Hi Miles and All,

On Tue, 24 Oct 1995 23:31:59 +1300 (NDT), Miles Thompson
<miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz> wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Oct 1995 hoon wrote;
> 
> > Actually, as a life long subjectivist empiricist :) I'd call the conceit of
> > logical positivism a meaningless metaphysical concept.
> Me too!

> Don't get me wrong.
> The reason I quoted the below was on account of how I liked the way 
> it attacked (um) "logical postivism" on the grounds that it was "bleak". 

I am enjoying  the feedback on the comments I made to Joe Hendren
about the psyche etc. ( I hope you have managed to get back to
the BBS Joe.)


> Bleak yeah, how true. For me, this is a very compelling reason 
> why I am not into it. Stultifyingly boring solid and dead in fact.

I attacked it also because it blinds us to experience -- I was
thinking about that today, how subjective empiricism as Hoon
calls it is hidden from some people, and how difficult it is to
show them. 

> Makes me think of how little *life* seems to mean to the likes of 
> John Kehoe, for whom the "otherworld" is simply a tool, a small 

Psychological imperialism.

Miles makes a point on how we think:
> Its not really a question of having "mixed feelings" its more a question 
> of being in "two minds" like all the time... 

Good point.  I often get people to put objects in a sculpture to
see all the things that are going on at once, they sit in the
middle and I speak the words they attribute to each item -- it is
amazing to watch what happens when all these aspects are made
conscious.  In psychodrama jargon we call it concretising and
role reversal.

> Miles
> Ps wish me luck!

Good Luck!  (sorry if it is a bit late, anyway you probably don't
need it)


Walter.





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From ctpost@aol.com Fri Oct 27 02:21:08 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Wahay?
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:21:08 -0400


Miles,

>>>its more a question 
of being in "two minds" like all the time... <<<

I am intimately familiar with this mental condition, as I am there all the
time. Something I've discovered about Great Truths is that the opposite is
often always True. It may even be the Test of a Great Truth.

thx
Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Fri Oct 27 02:21:37 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: travels in ND
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:21:37 -0400


Travels in North Dakota? Wha? Huh?

Actually, I just was finally able to negotiate the subscription procedure
(apparently impossible when done off line at AOL). The first posts are
rolling in and I'm noticing already that I have no UNSUB instructions.
Welcome to the Hotel North Dakota.....

Oddly cheerful,
Ron



From ctpost@aol.com Sat Oct 28 07:45:15 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: on the road again
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 14:45:15 -0400


All:

I will not be around for a few days. Am going to be on the road and not able
to check in here. Will be in San Diego - Los Angeles - Pittsburgh. Some work,
some play, some family obligations. Carry on. I look forward to rejoining you
when I return.

Cheers,
Ron



From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 03:05:34 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Kinds of Power
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 14:05:34 GMT

Jean,

Thanks for the detailed post on the distinction between Eros,
Philia and Agape.  I leave the entire post attached below as I
think it only went to Aion, and not Psybernet, but it is relevant
to this discussion, Ron has quoted from it as well!  

This is how I understand the discussion so far, is this an
accurate summary?:


Ron noticed Hillman questioned the issue of sexual harassment at
work as a denial of Eros.

I (Walter) responded:
>Harassment is not Eros -- it is the denial of Eros.

You (Jean) responded : 
> To me, it is a perversion of Eros, more than its denial.

We are all agreed that harassment is not OK, it is either a
denial or a perversion (a special form of denial? ) of Eros.
Eros is OK -- and we don't want to see it perverted or denied,
thus raising the issue of harassment is a form of Agape,
certainly not a denial of Eros, which is perhaps what Hillman is
saying.


Walter.







On Sun, 24 Sep 1995 22:06:13 -0400, Jean Garneau
<jgarneau@igs.net> wrote:

> 
> Walter wrote:
> >Harassment is not Eros -- it is the denial of Eros.
> >
> >by which I mean:
> >
> >Harassment is not love -- it is the denial of love.
> >
> The last chapter in the recently published "Petit trait=E9 des grandes
> vertus" (freely translated perhaps as "Timely Treatise About Eternal
> Virtues" to capture the contrast of the French title) by Louis
> Compte-Sponville, a teacher of morals and philosophy at the Sorbonne
> (Pantheon) is a discourse on love.  The author qualifies love not as a
> virtue, but as the product of virtue.  In the first chapter, by the way, he
> speaks of politeness also as a non-virtue, but as the prerequisite for the
> manifestation of virtues and virtuous behaviour.
> 
> Compte-Sponville differentiates three key manifestations of love: Eros,
> Philia and Agape.
> Eros in that context is described as the desire for what we are not or have
> not--the classic libido that Freud limited to sex and that Jung saw as
> applicable to any desire.
> 
> Philia, which may subsume Eros, is that stage where knowledge of, or the
> mere existence of the loved one is in itself a source of complete joy (more
> on that further),  inspiring a "self-effacing" (Self-realizing, in reality)
> wish for the well-being of the other, independently of "possession" or
> Eros.
> 
> Agape, finally, is the universalization of philia: love for fellow-beings;
> Gandhi; the Dalai-Lama;Jung himself, in many respects; Mother Theresa
> (maybe), all are possible models for agape. Christ, certainly for me.  Can
> agape subsume Eros? I don't know; but I would think not, because Eros
> implies a storming of the object of love, an appropriation where the
> delineation between power and sharing is often unclear.
> 
> This brings us to Walter's remark about harassment as the denial of Eros.
> Harassement is certainly rooted in the wielding of power by one over
> another, be it in sexual harassment or school-yard harassment or office
> (bureaucratic) harassment.  To me, it is a perversion of Eros, more that
> its denial.  In fact,  isn't harassment  inevitably based on the presence
> of warped or reversed libido towards the object-person.  How can that be a
> denial of Eros?
> 
> Therefore, I would also qualify harassment as a perversion of love. Maybe
> hate is to simple a word?  In essence, I suppose that what I am grasping at
> is  the loose notion that harassment is a form of Eros and love, but
> perverted, not necessarily their denial.
> 
> As for joy (see philia, above), Erich Fromm said in "To Have Or To Be" that
> it is what we experience in the evolution of our growth towards the goal
> that consists in becoming ourselves.
> 
> Jean
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 03:05:38 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: kinds of power
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 14:05:38 GMT

Ron,

> I gather Hillman is overcompensating for the history of puritanical attitudes
> toward eros in American culture. It occurs to me that Camille Paglia, another
> dissenting voice, may be taking a similar stance. Both make me uncomfortable
> while challenging my own puritanical assumptions. 

I think Jean may be onto it with the idea that this is about
power not sex.  To be opposed to harassment, rape is not to be
puritanical -- that applies to objections to the actions of
consenting adults.  To confuse these two areas is not just
overcompensating but to muddle whole areas power and love (Eros)
.  I have a sense that both Hillman and Pagila are apologists for
the abusers of power -- they happen to do this in the most
beguiling ways, that draw in many who would oppose the ideas
vigorously if put in the more usual redneck style.

> The power of love and the power of erotic desire seem forever at odds. 

Hmm,  perhaps we are just talking past each other here -- I have
been relating thinking of love and Eros in harmony.  You seem to
be speaking of love and sex as being at odds.   Confusing stuff.


Walter.


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 04:15:50 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Community=Myth
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 15:15:50 GMT

Ron,

> >>> Gregory Bateson put it, constitute the *difference that
> makes a difference*.<<<

> Years ago, I learned this as someone's definition of *information*. Is this
> what Bateson (whom I don't recall ever reading) was talking about? OR did
> someone borrow the phrase and reapply it?

I think that it was Bateson who coined that definition of
information.

Walter.



_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 04:37:26 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Mile's single second
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 15:37:26 GMT

Andrew,

Welcome to the list.  I am behind a few days, but am working
through the discussions  

Ron wrote:
> > I have never had a transcendent experience on the Net. I don't think I know
> > anyone who has. What are you talking about?

Andrew responded:
>I doubt that anything 
> on the net could have any *direct* power to affect the people who use it, 
> after all, everything on the net is mostly written in English and it 
> needs to go through the language-reading centers of the brain before it 
> can change anything in you.

Are these centers so crushing that they exclude transcendent
experience?  Perhaps, but that is not even quite the point, I
think.  The experience of the net can be in silence away from the
computer -- alone in nature.  Recently in the Aion group the
facilitator suggested we have 2 days of no-mail to reflect!  I
was as much in the group on those days as the others!  More so
perhaps.  

People have online relationships, sex, rituals etc.  Here we have
focused more on the group experience, and can experience it as a
constant presence --  I do, even when I am behind in the reading!
Participation here adds an imaginal quality of group experience
-- or highlights that aspect . . . I would not call any of this
transcendent, but it could be.  It gets close.  I think it is
consciousness altering, beyond what other reading or group study
might do.


Walter.






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 05:31:00 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Dancing Spiders
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 16:31:00 GMT

Stephen,

> With greater bandwidth, smart Java agents, exponential growth, real-time
> exchanges, video conferencing, etc. could it offer up an experience of
> transcendent caliber? There isn't any reason for me to think the answer is
> *no*. We'll see! and hear, and read. (Sniff-o-vision seems a stretch
> however :^)  )

All those things will develop their own high points -- but text
and lists are a form that I think will not die!  Just as there
will be novels and film etc.

Miles and Peter have spoken of the smaller focussed group, again
they have great potential but lets move into the here and now --
the Psybernet Conference, with these people!  

Lets not aim for transcending, either the media we use or who we
are right now, but hang in here as we are, in this medium as it
is, and just value what happens!  We are in a complex world here,
if we experience it fully it probably is transcendent -- just as
it is if we really look at a leaf or anything really.  Awareness.


Awareness here for me includes Tama and Claire!  The notions of
the net Goddess, Josh ON in London reading this , dog tired!  I
am aware of some of us also having a shared-non-shared experience
of Aion and or Future Culture, in other words I experience
belonging to sub groups.  I experience the Community thread, and
the somewhat ominous Kinds of Power discussions.  I wonder if
Vica is still reading all this?  I have a sense of this being a
very new constellation of people who are still at the beginning
of an exploration  . . . 


I have not read the whole post and then come to this from you
Stephen:

> Imaginal space comes to the fore. My experience is different...there is
> plenty of emotion and it is, as it is at all times, mediated by our
> awareness. Tama's big bursting post was an exceptional delivery of
> text-based emotion (among much more), FE. We fill in the space imaginally
> with imaginal surmising STS.
> 
> In-coming! We fill in the blanks with our own emotion too, as we sit and
> imagine and write our responses to each other. What we imagine about each
> other is not who the other is, or is it in part? This question would come
> up if we we're all sitting in a room too.

I have a sense we are sharing this in a similar manner.
Delighting in how we can fill in the blanks from the depths!  

I really appreciate your valuing and enthusiasm for the bubbling
of life in this nook of the net.  I notice your hunger for and
pleasure in these connections.  And your acceptance and hunger
for community.  

> (My) idea of a thread over the last five weeks is: hunger for connection.
> Part of a hunger for transcendence? Part of a hunger for acceptance?
> Agreement? Love? Community? ? ? ?
> 
> Part of hunger for dialogue, for sharing ideas, for giving ideas, for
> sharing imagination, for connecting the individual imaginal space with a
> collective imaginal space?

I notice how many of the themes we have discussed abstractly
actually apply right here and now in this list.  We are doing
what we set out to do:  learning about cyberspace experientially.

> I, for one, feel as if I'm a dancing spider here. It all is a whole
> kaleidescopic yet comprehensible cloth being woven and unfolded. I dig it
> tremendously.

Ahh, what a buzz to see your dance!


> Do *you* know me? I would guess that you know me better today than
> yesterday, than five weeks ago.

Certainly, and with all the mystery that you mention.


From another dancing spider,

Walter.



 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Mon Oct 30 07:49:21 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Wahay! I think I might start a new subject line...
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 13:49:21 -0500


>> On Mon, 23 Oct 1995 hoon wrote;
>>
>> > Actually, as a life long subjectivist empiricist :) I'd call the conceit of
>> > logical positivism a meaningless metaphysical concept.

In retrospect, this is a glib characterization of me...ha! I'm more
confused than anything else...but delightfully so.

Years ago, when the counter culture and my hormones were both running
rampant I came across the writings of John Lilly. (*Simulations of God* is
a good 'un.) His key point was: "If you believe something to be true, it
is...for you!"

There is a strong current of reflexivity and self-reference that invades
most of the so-called big questions. But, another way of putting it is the
conundrum: Why do the big questions remain unsolved/resolved.

Do we toss back and forth nothing but our beliefs, imaginings, isolated
viewpoints...etc?

>> Makes me think of how little *life* seems to mean to the likes of
>> John Kehoe, for whom the "otherworld" is simply a tool, a small
>
>Psychological imperialism.

(But, he believes it is true!)

Fritjof Schjoun wrote: If the philosophies that deny the Spirit are
intelligent, there is no such thing as intelligence.

And, Schoun goes deeper:

...for to deny that which is total and unalienable in man is to scoff at
the divine intention that makes us what we are, and has consecrated our
nature through the "word made flesh". Tacitus laughed at the Germans who
tried to stop a torrent with their shields, but it is no less childish to
believe in planetary migration or to believe in the establishment by purely
human means of a society fully satisfied and perfectly inoffensive and
continuing to preogress indefinately. All this proves that, although man
has inevitably become less naive in some connections, he has nonetheless
learnt nothing as far as essentials are concerned, to say the least of it;
the only thing that man left to himself is capable of is to "...commit the
oldest sins the newest kind of way". And, the world being what is it, one
is doubtless not guilty of a truism in adding that it is better to go to
heaven artlessly than to go to hell intelligently.

[from "Reflections On Naivety", from LIGHT ON THE ANCIENT WORLDS]

To my way of seeing affairs here there is this interplay of the hidden and
the tacit and the depths...of those very biases, subjectivities, and
unconscious effects, etc.

Funded by Schoun's unalienable aspects (?) Perhaps, my belief is: yes.

But what of the intersubjective, then? How does a group sharing ideas,
views, feelings, come to distill the common ground out of which some sort
of further development arises?

The alternative sometimes feels like going around in circles.

(I am still lurking in ND too, but here is where the unconscious or the
mystery-nature of the psyche is allowed to be a factor, so in talking about
how people dynamically experience each other and the group in this medium,
to my sensibility Psyber-L is the more interesting place to be.)

Best to all.









----------------------Stephen Calhoun
----------------------beta test--> http://junior./apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Nature is visible thought."

                                Heinrich Heine





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 11:00:19 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: Introduction to Psyberspace (A short essay)
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 22:00:19 GMT

Hi All,

Here is a short essay.  I have been trying to write a long one,
but thought that by writing each section as a unit I would get it
done!  This is the text version, it is in hypertext on the www
(when I get it there) in a day or so.

Walter.


Psyberspace 1.01 

Introduction to Psyberspace 

This is the first of a series of short essays (around 800
- 1000 words with some hypertext links) that explore
the ways in which cyberspace is a psychological
phenomena. The essays look at computer mediated
communication: e-mail, mailing lists, newsgroups,
WWW, information storage and retrieval, hypertext
and groupware and how they impact our experience,
feelings, thoughts and consciousness. The essays are a
form of research based on personal exploration, they
maintain the thesis that the understandings recorded
here, while a personal account, shed light on the
nature of an imaginal realm that has an autonomy and
objectivity. The virtual has a reality of its own, it is
not, as it may seem, at the mercy of our will. The
essays' methodology thus grows out of the underlying
conceptions, and are themselves a statement about
psychology and cyberspace. 

I am a psychotherapist, and thus listen to people as
they speak of their lives. I watch dramas unfold. The
medium of these dramas is a series of
psychotherapeutic hours, for a fee, in a room. Part of
the medium is my active listening and their speaking.
The dramas are of a virtual nature. They hover in our
imagination. There is a shared experience, because we
constantly align perceptions, and because these
dramas are not only personal. For example a child in
the dramas is a child and most immediate assumptions
apply, as childhood has universality. The dramas are
related to the medium. It is not as if we create the
dramas, we allow them to become visible. 

It is with this eye for a virtual drama that I come to
cyberspace. All the wires, screens software, and the
fees for access, the relationships and politics of
tele-computing form a medium that allow us to shed a
light on an imaginal realm that is at once related to the
medium, and distinct from it. Distinct because the
experience of communication occurs in a realm quite
unlike the physical gadgetry. The medium allows us to
see a space, and to make our place in it. And just as
with spaces in the non virtual world we can't make
those places just as we would like. There are virtual
reality constraints. 

Time is one. Just as the dramas in psychotherapy are
dependant on the structure (created by the initiative
of the therapist) of the regular psychotherapeutic hour
to give them their character so time plays a factor
here in cyberspace. The medium structures time for
us. In email lists there is a sense of what is current and
what is stale, one can catch or miss the right moment
or Kairos as it is usefully known in Greek, to
distinguish it from linear time, chronos. This is just
one example of how the canvas of cyberspace is
nailed to the frame. 

Money is another factor that has its psychological
impact. Look at its place in psychotherapy: The fee is
one of the most basic and elegant aspects of the
psychotherapeutic relationship, it is an aspect of the
'medium' of psychotherapy. It assures the attention in
psychotherapy goes toward the client. The
relationship is balanced in that both parties benefit,
but the nature of the gain is utterly different. The
personal psychological rewards for the therapist
remain secondary. It is the uneasy alliance with the
medical model that makes psychotherapy possible. 

How does money structure the relationships in
cyberspace? In many ways! One basic factor is
emerging: The patient/doctor and client/therapist
relationship is not forming in cyberspace. Just as
professional authorship and intellectual property are
undergoing radical transformation so is the nature of
the 'talking cure' in cyberspace. This is not because
cyberspace is not psychological, no, it is exactly the
opposite. There is no fee here for the same reason that
air is free -- we are in a psychological medium. 

Cyberspace is psychological because imagination is
realised. Of course there is imagination in everyday
life, but it requires a medium for it to be visible, a
novel, a painting, a psychodrama stage or the
psychotherapeutic hour. The imaginal world is always
there -- but usually hidden. The psyche needs the
litmus paper of some sort of medium to be visible.
Here we live in the medium, and the imagination is
expressed in every connection we make. Our emails
are both canvasses on which we paint and mirrors for
others to see their own reflected psyche. 

In these essays I will explore this imaginal realm of
cyberspace. The focus I bring to it lends it to be
known as Psyberspace . 

Psyberspace 1.02, to be released into the net at an
unspecified time in the future, will look at Intimacy
in Cyberspace. Intimacy here is intense and beyond
what many expected or are ready to handle. 

Walter Logeman 30 October, 1995 

Psyberspace 1.01 is the Copyright 1995 of Walter
Logeman. Please feel free to distribute this in its
entirety, including this URL and address: 
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

where this essay and subsequent ones are available
with hypertext links in place. 

walterl@chch.planet.org.nz

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 11:00:19 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Introduction to Psyberspace (A short essay)
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 1995 22:00:19 GMT

Hi All,

Here is a short essay.  I have been trying to write a long one,
but thought that by writing each section as a unit I would get it
done!  This is the text version, it is in hypertext on the www
(when I get it there) in a day or so.

Walter.


Psyberspace 1.01 

Introduction to Psyberspace 

This is the first of a series of short essays (around 800
- 1000 words with some hypertext links) that explore
the ways in which cyberspace is a psychological
phenomena. The essays look at computer mediated
communication: e-mail, mailing lists, newsgroups,
WWW, information storage and retrieval, hypertext
and groupware and how they impact our experience,
feelings, thoughts and consciousness. The essays are a
form of research based on personal exploration, they
maintain the thesis that the understandings recorded
here, while a personal account, shed light on the
nature of an imaginal realm that has an autonomy and
objectivity. The virtual has a reality of its own, it is
not, as it may seem, at the mercy of our will. The
essays' methodology thus grows out of the underlying
conceptions, and are themselves a statement about
psychology and cyberspace. 

I am a psychotherapist, and thus listen to people as
they speak of their lives. I watch dramas unfold. The
medium of these dramas is a series of
psychotherapeutic hours, for a fee, in a room. Part of
the medium is my active listening and their speaking.
The dramas are of a virtual nature. They hover in our
imagination. There is a shared experience, because we
constantly align perceptions, and because these
dramas are not only personal. For example a child in
the dramas is a child and most immediate assumptions
apply, as childhood has universality. The dramas are
related to the medium. It is not as if we create the
dramas, we allow them to become visible. 

It is with this eye for a virtual drama that I come to
cyberspace. All the wires, screens software, and the
fees for access, the relationships and politics of
tele-computing form a medium that allow us to shed a
light on an imaginal realm that is at once related to the
medium, and distinct from it. Distinct because the
experience of communication occurs in a realm quite
unlike the physical gadgetry. The medium allows us to
see a space, and to make our place in it. And just as
with spaces in the non virtual world we can't make
those places just as we would like. There are virtual
reality constraints. 

Time is one. Just as the dramas in psychotherapy are
dependant on the structure (created by the initiative
of the therapist) of the regular psychotherapeutic hour
to give them their character so time plays a factor
here in cyberspace. The medium structures time for
us. In email lists there is a sense of what is current and
what is stale, one can catch or miss the right moment
or Kairos as it is usefully known in Greek, to
distinguish it from linear time, chronos. This is just
one example of how the canvas of cyberspace is
nailed to the frame. 

Money is another factor that has its psychological
impact. Look at its place in psychotherapy: The fee is
one of the most basic and elegant aspects of the
psychotherapeutic relationship, it is an aspect of the
'medium' of psychotherapy. It assures the attention in
psychotherapy goes toward the client. The
relationship is balanced in that both parties benefit,
but the nature of the gain is utterly different. The
personal psychological rewards for the therapist
remain secondary. It is the uneasy alliance with the
medical model that makes psychotherapy possible. 

How does money structure the relationships in
cyberspace? In many ways! One basic factor is
emerging: The patient/doctor and client/therapist
relationship is not forming in cyberspace. Just as
professional authorship and intellectual property are
undergoing radical transformation so is the nature of
the 'talking cure' in cyberspace. This is not because
cyberspace is not psychological, no, it is exactly the
opposite. There is no fee here for the same reason that
air is free -- we are in a psychological medium. 

Cyberspace is psychological because imagination is
realised. Of course there is imagination in everyday
life, but it requires a medium for it to be visible, a
novel, a painting, a psychodrama stage or the
psychotherapeutic hour. The imaginal world is always
there -- but usually hidden. The psyche needs the
litmus paper of some sort of medium to be visible.
Here we live in the medium, and the imagination is
expressed in every connection we make. Our emails
are both canvasses on which we paint and mirrors for
others to see their own reflected psyche. 

In these essays I will explore this imaginal realm of
cyberspace. The focus I bring to it lends it to be
known as Psyberspace . 

Psyberspace 1.02, to be released into the net at an
unspecified time in the future, will look at Intimacy
in Cyberspace. Intimacy here is intense and beyond
what many expected or are ready to handle. 

Walter Logeman 30 October, 1995 

Psyberspace 1.01 is the Copyright 1995 of Walter
Logeman. Please feel free to distribute this in its
entirety, including this URL and address: 
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

where this essay and subsequent ones are available
with hypertext links in place. 

walterl@chch.planet.org.nz

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 14:26:36 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: Re: Radical Family
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 01:26:36 GMT


Ron,

Hope you had a good trip away.  Welcome back.  

> Listening to Walter describe how he is simultaneously present in RL and
> cyberspace reminds me of when I was a teacher. I was simultaneously in RL and
> in the classroom much of the time. And the students in those classes (for
> better or worse) were mentally with me, even though we met together in the
> classroom less than 3 hours a week. I believe this came from my sense of
> responsibility for leading and directing the class. I don't experience that
> anywhere in my life now: not in cyberspace, not on the job. 

Yes, I think of this as virtuality, and it is nothing all that
new -- perhaps "absent minded" is what it could as easily be
called.  I have just posted the short essay on Psyberspace --
where I do laud this aspect of cyberspace.  I guess being
actively engaged with people in this group -- as I am now, is
qualitatively different from being in a classroom or at work.  I
do have a sense of this "letter" going into a "place" where there
is a "meeting".  It does not exclude the more real life image of
people at their computers -- but that is secondary.  In any case
both are _images_ and both can linger beyond the actual time at
the PC.  

I guess we all see something _radically_ different  . . .  and
yet the point I have been making in the short essay is that there
is also something objective, that there is some sort of structure
to the imaginary that we cant ignore -- the archetypes of
cyberspace perhaps, or virtual reality restraints as I called
them in the essay.  I think this ties in with a recent post of
HooN's which I have yet to explore more fully.

I recall a moment from a group:  there were about 80
participants.  One or two brave souls volunteered to walk around
the group (we were in a large circle).  People called out
descriptions of the archetypes at work in the walk, or in the
person -- Proud Queen, Benign ruler, Beloved Queen.  Somehow 80
people would instantly come to a consensus, not only on the
general direction of the archetype, but on the exact best
description.  

That is what I mean by the imaginal having an objectivity --
something fits or it does not.  "Space" is definitely a word that
hangs around this medium -- and yet in your post Ron, I have a
sense of you simply not having that experience -- which puts a
different light on my theories!  (Who cares, it is the
exploration of this I cherish.)


Walter.





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 14:26:36 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: Radical Family
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 01:26:36 GMT


Ron,

Hope you had a good trip away.  Welcome back.  

> Listening to Walter describe how he is simultaneously present in RL and
> cyberspace reminds me of when I was a teacher. I was simultaneously in RL and
> in the classroom much of the time. And the students in those classes (for
> better or worse) were mentally with me, even though we met together in the
> classroom less than 3 hours a week. I believe this came from my sense of
> responsibility for leading and directing the class. I don't experience that
> anywhere in my life now: not in cyberspace, not on the job. 

Yes, I think of this as virtuality, and it is nothing all that
new -- perhaps "absent minded" is what it could as easily be
called.  I have just posted the short essay on Psyberspace --
where I do laud this aspect of cyberspace.  I guess being
actively engaged with people in this group -- as I am now, is
qualitatively different from being in a classroom or at work.  I
do have a sense of this "letter" going into a "place" where there
is a "meeting".  It does not exclude the more real life image of
people at their computers -- but that is secondary.  In any case
both are _images_ and both can linger beyond the actual time at
the PC.  

I guess we all see something _radically_ different  . . .  and
yet the point I have been making in the short essay is that there
is also something objective, that there is some sort of structure
to the imaginary that we cant ignore -- the archetypes of
cyberspace perhaps, or virtual reality restraints as I called
them in the essay.  I think this ties in with a recent post of
HooN's which I have yet to explore more fully.

I recall a moment from a group:  there were about 80
participants.  One or two brave souls volunteered to walk around
the group (we were in a large circle).  People called out
descriptions of the archetypes at work in the walk, or in the
person -- Proud Queen, Benign ruler, Beloved Queen.  Somehow 80
people would instantly come to a consensus, not only on the
general direction of the archetype, but on the exact best
description.  

That is what I mean by the imaginal having an objectivity --
something fits or it does not.  "Space" is definitely a word that
hangs around this medium -- and yet in your post Ron, I have a
sense of you simply not having that experience -- which puts a
different light on my theories!  (Who cares, it is the
exploration of this I cherish.)


Walter.





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 22:37:19 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Miles' single second
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:37:19 GMT

Peter,

You wrote:
> The transcendent experience is internal to a human being. I have never been
> quite sure whether the intervention of another human being is necessary -
> it seems to me that "opening" to "the higher self" is, at least
> theoretically, sufficient. However, experience has shown me that there are
> circumstances / interventions which have encouraged me to focus my
> attention in particular ways.

Transcend -- whenever I have seen that word here it makes me
think of a lot of things.  For the last few years I have moved
from wanting to transcend to wanting to descend.  I think I
always have had that urge, but it is not affirmed so easily in
our culture.  I have written about it here quite a bit -- but
years ago now!  If I think of the Up / Down axis it brings many
correspondences to mind:  Air / Earth,  male / female ,  thought/
feeling,  words / experience,  light / dark,  sun / moon, ego /
self,  conscious / unconscious ,  young / old , yang /yin.  I
don't think we can have one without the other, but adequate
relationship between the two poles is probably a good thing.
Does the net favour one aspect and thus get stuck in a space
where no movement is possible?  

Perhaps. It would be easy to think that it is a boys toy, an
intellectual thing, all electric, eschewing dirt and moisture.
Medium / message, surface / depth, obvious /subtle,  viewing the
net through these correspondences may lead us to see that there
are other possibilities.  I have glimpsed Steve's message that
comes a few days after this one I am replying to and he is onto
something I think.

We are still in Miles' [note the correct way to write the
possessive form of the name -- I have it from the horses' mouth!
] one second thread, and I think another correspondence is
present in the polarities I am speaking of:  fast / slow.  The
fullness of the experience here will come slowly -- this is a
very early stage.


Walter.






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 22:47:14 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Miles' single second
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:47:14 GMT

Miles Wrote:
>Perhaps it could make it a bit more likely by linking
>people to other people that they wouldn't have otherwise been linked to,
>but then the emotion, I'm afraid, just a'int there.

But have we gone DEEP enough to find it?  I feel all the time
here -- and I have felt a lot, believe me, there were some major
crisis here in the birth of this system, you may recall some of
that from the periphery Miles.  I know what you mean though -- my
primary relationships are flesh and blood ones.  For all that,
lets not compare such different things and pursue what we find
here.


Walter.





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Oct 30 23:53:51 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Psybernet Small Groups
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:53:51 GMT


Miles wrote:

> >It seems that some would like to share all their feelings to the whole
> >world. BUT how much more of an experience would this be if this was
> >reciprocated; if you knew that there was a small group that you felt
> >would take your comments with much thought? How transcendent?

Peter responded:
> Such a group would, I think, need a clearly stated goal and a set of simple
> ground rules. 

Great to see this discussion come up.  This is one I want to
really go with for a bit.  I am planning to run just such small
focussed groups on the Internet -- I think this is really the
core of Psybernet, and one of the great potentials for
psychological experience here.  There are a lot of things that we
have learnt in the three years this project has been running.  

Technical ease.
In the initial years the people who joined Psybernet on the BBS
to participate in small groups were unable to master the system.
The people who knew how to read mail offline etc, were not
interested in they psychological stuff (or perhaps I could not
interest them).

This is changing with Psybernet now being on the Internet -- but
something of the same problem persists.  To really be able to use
this medium at a deep level one needs to have the right software
to read mail by author or subject or date, have skill to enter
into the flow of threads.  And, beyond these technical and
aesthetic aspects of e-mail one needs to be able to integrate
reading and writing into the day -- no mean feat.

Group Formation
How do the right people get into the right groups?  At this stage
of the Internet development there are plenty ways of lurking in
many groups until the one for you is located -- but to have small
focussed groups, with clearly defined boundaries, requires more
than surfing and lurking -- I think there need to be several
_intentional_ procedures to form groups.


Facilitation
The size of the group is one factor -- time structure and the
groups "prime directive", its ground rules and the warm-up, all
make up the nature of the "holding space " or temenos of the
group.  Establishing, communicating and maintaining the group
"vessel" requires skilled facilitation.  In addition there is the
tricky task of,  if, when and how to intervene in such cases as
suicide threats, reports of harassment, breaches of
confidentiality, inappropriate mail etc.  

Effective group formation might necessitate that there are
several options and stages -- this would probably require several
facilitators.

Learning and training
All of the above are nor just going to happen, Psybernet has been
exploring these things for years and just uncovering difficulties
and discussing them is difficult enough.  Coming up with
procedures, policy and ethos is still a major task.

Administration
This group (Psybernet Conference ) is run through a DOS machine
using a BBS and a listserv programme called MG.  It is expensive
to run and not all that flash -- the advantage is that I can
administer it from home without any outside hassles.  You can see
where I am heading with this project -- if it is to be effective
it has to outgrow this system.

Promotion.
One of the prerequisites for group formation is to inform people
of what is available.  To date I have not felt ready to promote
the groups I would like to facilitate -- the time is coming
closer however.  One project I have coming up is that later this
year I will be giving a talk on Psybernet, using the WWW pages as
the presentation programme.  The talk and discussion will be
taped and the tapes will be available from the Psybernet WWW
site.  

Fees
I see the need for a professional service.  Running small groups
that go deeper than newsgroups and lists that are freely
available will require a level of commitment that would not be
sustainable without a sound financial structure.  I have
considered grants and support from institutions etc. but have
discarded that.   I think the best option is to charge for small
group participation.  NOT for lists such as the Aion reading
group or this Psybernet Conference  -- there is a tradition on
the Internet that lists are free -- and I think it must be so.
Psychological Groups, that are facilitated by people who can do
that, and formed using some form of selection etc., and which
have a time structure should be sufficiently attractive and
different to be able to sustain a fee.

The fee is important for another reason too:  As with
psychotherapy it is part of the commitment -- and thus one of the
cornerstones of the temenos.

What can we expect from such groups?  Are they feasible?  The
first step in exploring this will be a group called  == Here and
Now == that will be starting next year and that I will explain in
my talk and on the tape.  

Looking forward to comment,


Walter.





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Oct 31 00:11:30 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: hounds and foxes
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:11:30 GMT


Stephen,

> And the ground rules here? The mission statement is one thing...but what
> happens here is sharing of ideas. What I feel is the threads come together
> often and powerfully. Transcendence is mentioned and... 

The list has a life of its own!  

It is certainly not _following_ the mission statement. The
statement is one of the factors that alows that collective life
to flourish, it is one factor in the temenos.  It is almost
transcendent to watch that life take off.  One reason I hate the
traditional term "list-owner" -- the phrase from Gibran comes to
mind "your children are not your Children"  ie they only come
through you -- some things cant be owned.

You mentioned that you subbed to Future Culture -- there is no
obvious mission statement there -- though there is the "bubble"
manifesto.  I think that for all the wild roving of that group
there is a tight line of what is "on topic" that emerges from the
title of the group -- Future Culture, both as speaking of the
future and attempting to experience a culture seems to hold the
thing together.  As busy as I am of late I still glance at it --
and have about 1000 messages sitting in the Future Culture
folder, it has been a good place to learn for me -- especially
while the Psybernet stuff was slow.

What other lists are people on?


Walter.






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Oct 31 00:27:52 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: hounds and foxes
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:27:52 GMT


Peter Wrote:

> So much of our mail is in exactly this mode. Topics get lost, threads
> drift, as we career through the information space like untrained hounds in
> pursuit of a long-gone fox.

There is an art to it.  One of the things is good software -- I
am not at all adverse to us learning how to handle list mail on
our various systems -- artists need to know their brushes and
paint!

Another thing is to think about the titles of the messages.  Here
is a principle:  Only change the subject line for a reason.  If
it is a message replying to a previous one, even if the subject
is no longer relevant -- keep it the same, _unless_ you really
want to start a new topic.  This means that using alphanumeric
sorting one can follow a discussion -- very important in a list
that has a lot of traffic, but also important in a slow one like
this,  for those who want to ponder at leisure over a discussion.
Even here we can have _many_ going on at once, without confusion,
if we learn the art.

So here we are in hounds and foxes -- may it have a good little
life of its own!  And who knows what the underlying metaphor of
the title will reveal or evoke in the discussion!

Warm wishes,

Walter


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Oct 31 00:57:03 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Miles' single second
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:57:03 GMT

Ron,
> The weakness of this medium is that it makes it so easy to evade commitment
> and avoid really listening.

> Case in point: the people on lists who hold forth at great length, steer
> discussion off in divergent directions, then abruptly unsub. 

These weaknesses are also strengths -- nowhere else can I shut
someone up as easily as here.  Thus I can listen in to see if I
am interested, and then butt out if I am not.  A lot of people
sub and unsub from this list, for example, slowly we will attract
those with commitment, but it is fine for people to just try it
out for a while I think.

The chaotic element of a list like this (though it is 100% more
focussed than most newsgroups) is that, as Andrew said we be
transported into unchartered waters (my words but his idea I
think), that is an adventure.  

I guess I am all for this relatively unstructured list as one of
the ways of branching off into more focussed groups.  Much in the
way that Aion was born in the alt.psychology.jung newsgroup, this
list can spawn its Psybernet groups.  


Walter





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Oct 31 21:09:49 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Psybernet small groups
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 08:09:49 GMT


Stephen,

(Is Steve or Stephen what you like to be called here? If you opt
for Steve, we might need to make a distinction somehow with Steve
Bond who has joined us.)

>  Subject: Psybernet Small Groups
> 
> Walter...I'm thinking of your dream, again!

God, I hope they are nothing like that!

> >  Fees

> Actually, for me it is a payment for my time and is
> necessary as a recognition of my having to make a living...and in fact, I
> add in all my expertise and experience for free.

Yes, it needs to include all costs of maintaining a life style
that allows one to do the work -- includes many things, even
leisure!

> How do you see the issues of collaboration and relationship and initiation
> and implementation working together?  ;)

Good questions -- though I am not sure exactly what you mean by
them (Ha!).

Collaboration and relationship.
Both are happening in and around Psybernet, and I am just not
sure how a professional and commercial aspect of Psybernet can
work together with this.  In the initial stages of Psybernet I
had no doubts that I wanted this to be a professional operation
-- with fees etc.  However the ethos of a "free Internet" was
very strong -- this is changing.  Also it became clear that there
would need to be collaboration and relationships before a virtual
project like this could happen.  There was lots of learning to
do.   There still is!  The focus of the project has evolved in
many different ways, it has not really settled into something
that works professionally.

At the moment I envisage that this list is the focal point for
people interested in the psychological aspects of cyberspace --
that must be a way for finding people who are able to form
relationships and collaborate on professional projects -- not
only Psybernet ones.  All aspects of the psychology of
tele-computing can be raised here. 

Initiation and implementation
In these areas we are all able bodied -- I certainly intend to
initiate and implement things in this area for many years to
come!  I have already mentioned the idea of the tape, and the ==
Here and Now == group, who knows what will come off.  I have
other ideas that may work, to mention one: working in with
providers to offer a personalised help group for beginners -- I
think that could be a good place to learn about running groups
and facilitation.  Another idea is a training project.

Is this the sort of thing you were thinking of?  Q: How do we get
these things working together?  A:  Lots of discussion here!


Walter.







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Wed Nov 01 00:39:00 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: hounds and foxes
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:39:00 GMT

Ron and all,

The perception of the list as goal-less and without rules, and
how it is creative and exploratory because of that is interesting
to me.  

I see it as highly focussed!  But not goal oriented.  I also see
the playful and chaotic or unexpected as contributing to the
focus, not as a company picnic, I hope!  

This group has its mission statement (as Stephen called it, I
have usually referred to it as the description) -- I might post
it again soon -- hence it is not without some direction or
warm-up as I still like to call it.  Part of that warm-up is that
we are to range broadly in discussion and also attend to the
psychological aspects -- especially the psyche  in cyberspace --
even the word Psybernet is a warm-up to all that.  

The psychological work that we do here (I think it is OK to call
it that) is like the work with clients in my office -- it might
go all over the place but that is because the psyche is like that
-- IT is not goal oriented in the way of the industrial era etc.
But it has some method in the madness -- it is going somewhere --
it is for us to find some inkling of that.  I get into real
difficulty with some of my less psychologically oriented
colleagues who insist on goals and contracts in the psychotherapy
work. Clients too ask "Is this going anywhere?"  "Are we wasting
time here?"  this is the time to look very carefully at what is
at work!  _Who_ in the psyche is asking!  

Ron, you quote Ogilvy:
> By way of reply, here's something from *Living Without a Goal* by James
> Ogilvy (Doubleday, 1994): 

<snip>

> It would be foolish to purge ourselves of the entire vocabulary of
> goal-directed action. But the preoccupations of the industrial era -- with
> technique and technology, with utility, productivity and efficiency -- are
> not the most appropriate preoccupations for steering an entire life,

I agree of course -- but keep wanting to add that there is
something at work under the surface far bigger than the ego goals
he is speaking of here -- the will of the gods?


Oglivy continues:
> especially when more and more of that life is lived in the symbolic economy
> of the information era.***

I don't quite understand that -- is goal orientation more
pernicious in the post industrial or information (whatever) age
than in the industrial one?  

Ron, you add:
> And I'd say in addition that it could be *useful* to pay attention to what is
> happening and maybe get an insight into *the way it works* when what we're
> doing is left to proceed unhindered by goals.

Which probably what I am trying to say -- if we get out of our
own way we can see what is really going on?


Walter.







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Wed Nov 01 00:58:24 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Miles' single second
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:58:24 GMT

Miles,

You ask:
> Have we gone deep enough??? Or do we need more technology?

And you answer:
> I feel that the technology is a definite side issue 
> to what I really thirst for in this area. The emotion could come if we go 
> deeper into this medium. But deeper is perhaps the wrong word. I identify 
> with your identification of looking closer, as even the smallest leaf 
> can be a truly enlightening experience. 

And answer some more:
> On the other hand new technology plays a very significant part. this is 
> the fundamental background to the whole discussion of the net 
> that is the conversation that we are having.

Ron has already mentioned that this medium is cool because we can
fill in the blanks.  Perhaps the very thing about e-mail is that
it allows us to do the most with the least.  

There is something about this medium that nothing can replace,
neither more VR or more RL.

I spent about a year in e-mail groups with people I saw almost
everyday in RL -- one lived in this house.  We used to chat in RL
and then say things like:  I'll write about this to you in the
group! -- and go off to our rooms to write!  I recall saying
"Shut up, I am trying to write to you!"  The written word opens a
dimension of our imaginal capacity that ordinary conversation
does not -- in addition to that the group aspect -- even the
knowledge that someone new might come in on the conversation adds
a dimension of collective psyche that hitherto was unknown.


Walter



 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Wed Nov 01 01:18:06 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz 
Subject: Re: Minds and Machines
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 12:18:06 GMT

Welcome Steve

> What if psyche expresses itself through engineering no less so than through
> myth? 

What is the psyche expressing? You are proposing that we look at
the whole of IT (information technology) as a dream or a myth --
so what is this thing?


Is this an alternative proposition?:
> What if the fear of technology is some form of psychological reaction to the
> ego's conscious attempt to build a model of psyche, it's own ground? and that
> is only a modern expression of image of the "tower of Babel," the idea that
> God does not take kindly to technology that reaches almost to God?

Is IT the ego's work -- (are you seeing ego as psyche?)  Or do
you mean that the _fear of technology is the psyche?

Certainly the fear of this medium is a powerful force out there.
And I am not surprised -- the way IT is implemented in the work
place is crass.  The way people (often men) use it to isolate
from their families is also not helping to make this emerging
divinity everyone's god!

Walter 






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Wed Nov 01 23:14:51 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: Re: Wahay! 
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 1995 10:14:51 GMT

Hoon,

May I have a go at distilling your recent post (quoted in full
below), just to see if I have heard you right?

You reflect on the nature of our experience here, which includes
a large dollop of the subjective -- a mixture of projection,
belief, and perhaps inklings of our deeper divine aspects.  

Is there some commonality in our experience that we can build on?
Or is this just an endless swapping of opinions?  How could we
take this further?

Is that your general drift?  have I missed something in my
precis?


Walter.


On Sun, 29 Oct 1995 13:49:21 -0500, hoon@apk.net wrote:

> 
> >> On Mon, 23 Oct 1995 hoon wrote;
> >>
> >> > Actually, as a life long subjectivist empiricist :) I'd call the conceit of
> >> > logical positivism a meaningless metaphysical concept.
> 
> In retrospect, this is a glib characterization of me...ha! I'm more
> confused than anything else...but delightfully so.
> 
> Years ago, when the counter culture and my hormones were both running
> rampant I came across the writings of John Lilly. (*Simulations of God* is
> a good 'un.) His key point was: "If you believe something to be true, it
> is...for you!"
> 
> There is a strong current of reflexivity and self-reference that invades
> most of the so-called big questions. But, another way of putting it is the
> conundrum: Why do the big questions remain unsolved/resolved.
> 
> Do we toss back and forth nothing but our beliefs, imaginings, isolated
> viewpoints...etc?
> 
> >> Makes me think of how little *life* seems to mean to the likes of
> >> John Kehoe, for whom the "otherworld" is simply a tool, a small
> >
> >Psychological imperialism.
> 
> (But, he believes it is true!)
> 
> Fritjof Schjoun wrote: If the philosophies that deny the Spirit are
> intelligent, there is no such thing as intelligence.
> 
> And, Schoun goes deeper:
> 
> ...for to deny that which is total and unalienable in man is to scoff at
> the divine intention that makes us what we are, and has consecrated our
> nature through the "word made flesh". Tacitus laughed at the Germans who
> tried to stop a torrent with their shields, but it is no less childish to
> believe in planetary migration or to believe in the establishment by purely
> human means of a society fully satisfied and perfectly inoffensive and
> continuing to preogress indefinately. All this proves that, although man
> has inevitably become less naive in some connections, he has nonetheless
> learnt nothing as far as essentials are concerned, to say the least of it;
> the only thing that man left to himself is capable of is to "...commit the
> oldest sins the newest kind of way". And, the world being what is it, one
> is doubtless not guilty of a truism in adding that it is better to go to
> heaven artlessly than to go to hell intelligently.
> 
> [from "Reflections On Naivety", from LIGHT ON THE ANCIENT WORLDS]
> 
> To my way of seeing affairs here there is this interplay of the hidden and
> the tacit and the depths...of those very biases, subjectivities, and
> unconscious effects, etc.
> 
> Funded by Schoun's unalienable aspects (?) Perhaps, my belief is: yes.
> 
> But what of the intersubjective, then? How does a group sharing ideas,
> views, feelings, come to distill the common ground out of which some sort
> of further development arises?
> 
> The alternative sometimes feels like going around in circles.
> 
> (I am still lurking in ND too, but here is where the unconscious or the
> mystery-nature of the psyche is allowed to be a factor, so in talking about
> how people dynamically experience each other and the group in this medium,
> to my sensibility Psyber-L is the more interesting place to be.)
> 
> Best to all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------Stephen Calhoun
> ----------------------beta test--> http://junior./apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> "Nature is visible thought."
> 
>                                 Heinrich Heine
> 
> 
> 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Wed Nov 01 23:14:51 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: Wahay! 
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 1995 10:14:51 GMT

Hoon,

May I have a go at distilling your recent post (quoted in full
below), just to see if I have heard you right?

You reflect on the nature of our experience here, which includes
a large dollop of the subjective -- a mixture of projection,
belief, and perhaps inklings of our deeper divine aspects.  

Is there some commonality in our experience that we can build on?
Or is this just an endless swapping of opinions?  How could we
take this further?

Is that your general drift?  have I missed something in my
precis?


Walter.


On Sun, 29 Oct 1995 13:49:21 -0500, hoon@apk.net wrote:

> 
> >> On Mon, 23 Oct 1995 hoon wrote;
> >>
> >> > Actually, as a life long subjectivist empiricist :) I'd call the conceit of
> >> > logical positivism a meaningless metaphysical concept.
> 
> In retrospect, this is a glib characterization of me...ha! I'm more
> confused than anything else...but delightfully so.
> 
> Years ago, when the counter culture and my hormones were both running
> rampant I came across the writings of John Lilly. (*Simulations of God* is
> a good 'un.) His key point was: "If you believe something to be true, it
> is...for you!"
> 
> There is a strong current of reflexivity and self-reference that invades
> most of the so-called big questions. But, another way of putting it is the
> conundrum: Why do the big questions remain unsolved/resolved.
> 
> Do we toss back and forth nothing but our beliefs, imaginings, isolated
> viewpoints...etc?
> 
> >> Makes me think of how little *life* seems to mean to the likes of
> >> John Kehoe, for whom the "otherworld" is simply a tool, a small
> >
> >Psychological imperialism.
> 
> (But, he believes it is true!)
> 
> Fritjof Schjoun wrote: If the philosophies that deny the Spirit are
> intelligent, there is no such thing as intelligence.
> 
> And, Schoun goes deeper:
> 
> ...for to deny that which is total and unalienable in man is to scoff at
> the divine intention that makes us what we are, and has consecrated our
> nature through the "word made flesh". Tacitus laughed at the Germans who
> tried to stop a torrent with their shields, but it is no less childish to
> believe in planetary migration or to believe in the establishment by purely
> human means of a society fully satisfied and perfectly inoffensive and
> continuing to preogress indefinately. All this proves that, although man
> has inevitably become less naive in some connections, he has nonetheless
> learnt nothing as far as essentials are concerned, to say the least of it;
> the only thing that man left to himself is capable of is to "...commit the
> oldest sins the newest kind of way". And, the world being what is it, one
> is doubtless not guilty of a truism in adding that it is better to go to
> heaven artlessly than to go to hell intelligently.
> 
> [from "Reflections On Naivety", from LIGHT ON THE ANCIENT WORLDS]
> 
> To my way of seeing affairs here there is this interplay of the hidden and
> the tacit and the depths...of those very biases, subjectivities, and
> unconscious effects, etc.
> 
> Funded by Schoun's unalienable aspects (?) Perhaps, my belief is: yes.
> 
> But what of the intersubjective, then? How does a group sharing ideas,
> views, feelings, come to distill the common ground out of which some sort
> of further development arises?
> 
> The alternative sometimes feels like going around in circles.
> 
> (I am still lurking in ND too, but here is where the unconscious or the
> mystery-nature of the psyche is allowed to be a factor, so in talking about
> how people dynamically experience each other and the group in this medium,
> to my sensibility Psyber-L is the more interesting place to be.)
> 
> Best to all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------Stephen Calhoun
> ----------------------beta test--> http://junior./apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> "Nature is visible thought."
> 
>                                 Heinrich Heine
> 
> 
> 

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From hoon@apk.net Thu Nov 02 03:24:01 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Wahay!
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:24:01 -0500


>Walter wrote 10/31:
>May I have a go at distilling your recent post (quoted in full
>below), just to see if I have heard you right?
>
>You reflect on the nature of our experience here, which includes
>a large dollop of the subjective -- a mixture of projection,
>belief, and perhaps inklings of our deeper divine aspects.
>
>Is there some commonality in our experience that we can build on?
>Or is this just an endless swapping of opinions?  How could we
>take this further?
>
>Is that your general drift?  have I missed something in my
>precis?
>
>> HooN wrote (earlier):
>> But what of the intersubjective, then? How does a group sharing ideas,
>> views, feelings, come to distill the common ground out of which some sort
>> of further development arises?
>
Yes, you got it...but I've re-tacked on my questions -which will be the 3rd
time they've been posted to the group! (excuse me :) ... and I'll be less
cagey in repeating myself again:

It feels to *me* like it goes around in circles.

I mention naivete as a factor because we've already revealed several ways
in which, on the shoulders of all these bits and bytes and our humming
CPUs, age-old conundrums continue to be clothed. (BTW, Schoun's axe to
grind was to always argue against the idea that a person can willfully
"self-improve".)

(1) Projections of community, family, parental figures...Cyberspace as a
simulcra of what may be lost to us. (Tempted to add: in late Capitalism! ;)

(2) Logos driven analysis searching to explain processes, determine the
inner-workings of events.

(3) Persona delivered by text; textual representations of who we'd like others,
who are unlikely to meet us FtF, believe us to be.

(4) Feelings-Eros-Intuition and the challenges of translating emotion,
touch, taste, aroma, color, tactile-ness, sound, gesture through this
medium.

(5) Good Stuff lost in both the signal and the noise.

Is escaping to cyberspace signalling a certain naivete? (A translation of
Schoun might offer that to be ignorant of essence is to be naive and the
Jungian extension would be: being ignorant of the unconscious and its
center.)

Much more could be added. (Which is one reason I'd like to go back and
redigest the last three month's posts looking for kernals.)

Anyway...this is enough for too many threads! I going this way and that way
with this...so, now, this way. New thread: TRUTH&truth





------------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun
------------beta test URL:http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
---------------------------------------------------------------

Stupidity is the mother of the wise, but cleverness never.
C.G.Jung





From hoon@apk.net Thu Nov 02 03:24:39 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: TRUTH&truth
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:24:39 -0500


I mentioned Lilly for this reason:

One activity (here and in RL) is to try to develop TRUTH: all caps...to
attempt an answer to the big questions and to use this medium to do so. A
starting point might be to analyze Net-Dynamics or Psyber-L space. We have
speculated on the archetypes/ projections that drive this kind of inflated
effort.

Another activity is to share our individual truths; small
caps...subjective, personal, (yes, divine too,) essential. We have
speculated on the archetypes/ projections that drive this...sometimes, too,
an inflated effort.

In fact, I'll tip my hand and say, it feels sometimes like an inflation in
me...the power to share when I darn well please and my assumption that what
I am expressing must be interesting to all of *you*.

Don't tell me it isn't interesting! :(  Point is: I observe myself typing
and what I feel; affectually, etc. What the hunger feels like.

For example, for myself the psychological question would be:

What is this *listen to me!* about?

Does a similar question start to address the explosion of participants on-line?

New thread: What have we lost?

------------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun
------------beta test URL:http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
---------------------------------------------------------------

If it ain't broke, we've still got a chance to fix it.
--Mike Hammer





From hoon@apk.net Thu Nov 02 03:27:18 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: What have we lost?
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:27:18 -0500


Cyberspace in it's attempt to provide a simulcra of family or community is
(of course) *we* using this medium to do so. Cyberspace is us.

The sharing is also therapeutic in the mode of co-counseling. (A
feature/preoccupation of the administrative/consumer/narcissistic nature of
late Capitalism? [Chrisyopher Lasch's idea.]

That said, what have we lost and are trying to find here...if anything.

I'll reveal some of my own problem of consciousness as an example of what
puts one person here in this way, my way call it. Pardon my naive
self-revelation!

Mother's son, absent father, tend toward flights of fancy, fantasy, uneasy
relationship with instinctual aspects, puer, caught between light and the
greys and shadows of day-work.

Keywords for participation in Psyber-L: *Listen to me.*

Key fantasy: That everybody is listening.

Yeah, lost my father...ha to late capitalism, no actually to his Don
Quixote quest...by, that's another story! (As Walter puts it in Intro. To
Psyberspace, this is part of the stuff of my drama and imaginings about
it.)

What have we lost?

What, psychologically, brings you here?

My opinion: my delving deep into ourselves about the drama that brings us
here to talk *psychologically* about cyber/psyber space, and expressing it,
we can begin to dialogue psychologically.

Of course, I could be wrong about this!








------------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun
------------beta test URL:http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
---------------------------------------------------------------

I do nothing that a man of unlimited funds, superb physical endurance,
and maximum scientific knowledge could not do. --Batman





From hoon@apk.net Thu Nov 02 03:28:59 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: talking behind the back
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:28:59 -0500


Occurs to me that speculating about net dynamics by bringing my experience
as a lurker in NET-DYNAMICS back to Psyber-L, here, where I am more
comfortable*, expressing it is talking behind the back of ND.

This struck me after the fact because I realized that the two groups are
not discrete...duh! I noted a post there (ND) about an unnamed group and I
was startled to note it could be this group.

Is this rude or just risky or of no consequence?

Here, where there is already a critical mass of persons comfortable with
the concept of the unconscious, the deep psyche...heck have experienced
their own depths, and

There (ND), which is going about it a different way, albeit some of the
same things are just called different names over there, in that space.

I admit I don;t have the guts to post this in Net-Dynamics!


*comfortable: indulged with kindness :)


------------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun
------------beta test URL:http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
---------------------------------------------------------------

There once was a family named Stein,
with three children:
Ep, Gert, and Ein.
Ep's statues are junk,
Gert's poems are bunk,
And nobody understands Ein.

--Anonymous






From hoon@apk.net Thu Nov 02 03:30:44 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: A Globe, Clothing Itself with a Brain
From: hoon@apk.net
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:30:44 -0500


An example of thinking about cyberspace as a progessive extension of RL, is
this article found in WIRED in, I believe March 95.

Subject: Inflated ideas about cyberspace.

Questions: Projections, archetypes driving this kind of thinking?

(copywrited material follows.)

A Globe, Clothing Itself with a Brain

An obscure Jesuit priest, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin,set down the
philosophical framework for planetary, Net-based consciousness 50 years
ago.

By Jennifer Cobb Kreisberg

 He has inspired Al Gore and Mario Cuomo. Cyberbard John Perry Barlow finds
him richly prescient. Nobel laureate Christian de Duve claims his vision
helps us find meaning in the cosmos. Even Marshall McLuhan cited his
"lyrical testimony" when formulating his emerging global-village vision.
Whom is this eclectic group celebrating? An obscure Jesuit priest and
paleontologist named Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, whose quirky philosophy
points, oddly, right into cyberspace.

Teilhard de Chardin finds allies among those searching for grains of
spiritual truth in a secular universe. As Mario Cuomo put it, "Teilhard
made negativism a sin. He taught us how the whole universe - even pain and
imperfection - is sacred." Marshall McLuhan turned to Teilhard as a source
of divine insight in The Gutenberg Galaxy, his classic analysis of Western
culture's descent into a profane world. Al Gore, in his book Earth in the
Balance, argues that Teilhard helps us understand the importance of faith
in the future. "Armed with such faith," Gore writes, "we might find it
possible to resanctify the earth, identify it as God's creation, and accept
our responsibility to protect and defend it."

=46rom the '20s to the '50s, Teilhard de Chardin drafted a series of poetic
works about evolution that has reemerged as a foundation for new
evolutionary theories. In particular, Teilhard and his Russian counterpart
Vladimir Vernadsky inspired the renegade Gaia hypothesis (later set forth
by James Lovelock and Lynn Margulis): the global ecosystem is a
superorganism with a whole much greater than the sum of its parts. This
vision is clearly theological - suddenly everything, from rocks to people,
takes on a holistic importance. As a Jesuit, Teilhard felt this deeply, and
a handful of cyberphilosophers are now mining this ideological source as
they search for the deeper implications of the Net. As Barlow says,
"Teilhard's work is about creating a consciousness so profound it will make
good company for God itself."

Teilhard imagined a stage of evolution characterized by a complex membrane
of information enveloping the globe and fueled by human consciousness. It
sounds a little off-the-wall, until you think about the Net, that vast
electronic web encircling the Earth, running point to point through a
nervelike constellation of wires. We live in an intertwined world of
telephone lines, wireless satellite-based transmissions, and dedicated
computer circuits that allow us to travel electronically from Des Moines to
Delhi in the blink of an eye.

Teilhard saw the Net coming more than half a century before it arrived. He
believed this vast thinking membrane would ultimately coalesce into "the
living unity of a single tissue" containing our collective thoughts and
experiences. In his magnum opus, The Phenomenon of Man, Teilhard wrote, "Is
this not like some great body which is being born - with its limbs, its
nervous system, its perceptive organs, its memory - the body in fact of
that great living Thing which had to come to fulfill the ambitions aroused
in the reflective being by the newly acquired consciousness?"

"What Teilhard was saying here can easily be summed up in a few words,"
says John Perry Barlow. "The point of all evolution up to this stage is the
creation of a collective organism of Mind."

Teilhard's philosophy of evolution was born out of his duality as both a
Jesuit father ordained in 1911 and a paleontologist whose career began in
the early 1920s. While conducting research in the Egyptian desert, Teilhard
was scratching around for the remains of ancient creatures when he turned
over a stone, dusted it off, and suddenly realized that everything around
him was beautifully connected in one vast, pulsating web of divine life.
Teilhard soon developed a philosophy that married the science of the
material world with the sacred forces of the Catholic Church. Neither the
Catholic Church nor the scientific academy, however, agreed. Teilhard's
premise, that rocks possessed a divine force, was seen as flaky by
scientists and outright heretical by the church. Teilhard's writings were
scorned by peers in both camps.

Throughout the '40s and '50s, the Catholic Church was on the verge of
excommunicating Teilhard. But the philosopher was committed to his
perspective, refusing to stop writing or to leave the Church. As his
problems with the Church escalated, Teilhard became something of a cause
c=8El=8Fbre within his small circle in Europe. The Church responded by
forbidding him to publish and posting him to China, where he lived in a
state of semi-exile, trekking through the Gobi desert and developing his
philosophy in isolation. (His paleontological studies continued to
circulate and was highly regarded.) The rest of his work was not published
until after his death on Easter Sunday, 1955, when it caused a small stir
in the theological world; it was read widely for only a short time. In the
postmodern climate of today's theology, Teilhard is once again out of favor
among theologists, evolutionary biologists, and scientists, who view his
work with derision.

"Teilhard de Chardin gets too little credit for the quality of his
insights," says Ralph Abraham, one of the founders of chaos theory and
co-author of The Web Empowerment Book, a World Wide Web primer. "He was
successfully deprived of his influence by the popes."

But what were the popes so afraid of? The answer's simple: evolution.

The concept of evolution was a central pillar, both intellectual and
spiritual, for Teilhard's life. During his early career, before science had
strong evidence for the existence of DNA, the theory of evolution was not
widely accepted. Yet, Teilhard gravitated toward it, sensing that the
theory would bridge his love of rocks and of God. He would later describe
evolution as the "general condition to which all other theories, all
hypotheses, all systems must bow and which they must satisfy henceforward
if they are to be thinkable and true. Evolution is a light illuminating all
facts, a curve that all lines must follow."

The meaning of evolution was as hotly debated in Teilhard's day as it is
now. Some argued in the strictest Darwinian terms that evolution's primary
mechanism is necessity - "survival of the fittest." Other evolutionists
followed in the footsteps of Jacques Monod, the groundbreaking French
biologist, who argued for a mixture of random chance and necessity.
Teilhard took Monod one step further, saying that evolution was guided
chance and necessity. In conclusion, this brought Teilhard to the heart of
his dual heresy - if evolution is being led, what is doing the leading? And
where is it going?

By the '40s, the idea of species evolution was no longer controversial in
scientific circles. But evolution was, and still is, a radical idea in
religious spheres. Every Catholic schoolchild is taught that God is
immutable. And every young science student knows how little God has to do
with the emergence of humanity from the evolutionary ooze.

Was Teilhard implying that God evolves?

Not exactly. Teilhard's idea was more subtle, and useful for examining the
implications of the fast, loose, out-of-control world we now call
cyberspace.

Teilhard felt that the spark of divine life he experienced in the Egyptian
desert was a force present throughout the evolutionary process, guiding and
shaping it every bit as much as the material forces described by physical
science. Teilhard would later codify this force into two distinct,
fundamental types of energy - "radial" and "tangential." Radial energy was
the energy of Newtonian physics. This energy obeyed mechanistic laws, such
as cause and effect, and could be quantified. Teilhard called radial energy
the energy of "without." Tangential energy, on the other hand, was the
energy of "within," in other words, the divine spark.

Teilhard described three types of tangential energy. In inanimate objects,
he called it "pre-life." In beings that are not self-reflective, he called
it "life." And in humans, he called it "consciousness." As Teilhard began
to observe the world described by science, he noticed that in certain
things, such as rocks, the radial energy was dominant, while the tangential
energy was barely visible. Rocks, therefore, are best described by the laws
that rule radial energy - physics. But in animals, in which tangential
energy, or life, is present, the laws of physics are only a partial
explanation. Teilhard concluded that where radial energy was dominant, the
evolutionary process would be characterized by the traditional scientific
laws of necessity and chance. But in those organisms in which the
tangential energy was significant, the forces of life and consciousness
would lead the laws of chance and natural selection.

Teilhard then moved this insight forward. As the balance of tangential
energy in any given entity grew larger, he noticed that it developed
naturally in the direction of consciousness. An increase in consciousness
was accompanied by an increase in the overall complexity of the organism.
Teilhard called this the "law of complexity consciousness," which stated
that increasing complexity is accompanied by increased consciousness.

Teilhard wrote, "The living world is constituted by consciousness clothed
in flesh and bone." He argued that the primary vehicle for increasing
complexity consciousness among living organisms was the nervous system. The
informational wiring of a being, he argued - whether of neurons or
electronics - gives birth to consciousness. As the diversification of
nervous connections increases, evolution is led toward greater
consciousness.

As Abraham points out, Teilhard's complexity-consciousness law is the same
as what we now think of as the neural net. "We now know from neural-net
technology that when there are more connections between points in a system,
and there is greater strength between these connections, there will be
sudden leaps in intelligence, where intelligence is defined as success rate
in performing a task." If one accepts this power of connections, then the
planetary neural-network of the Internet is fertile soil for the emergence
of a global intelligence.

Teilhard went on to argue that there have been three major phases in the
evolutionary process. The first significant phase started when life was
born from the development of the biosphere. The second began at the end of
the Tertiary period, when humans emerged along with self-reflective
thinking. And once thinking humans began communicating around the world,
along came the third phase. This was Teilhard's "thinking layer" of the
biosphere, called the noosphere (from the Greek noo, for mind). Though
small and scattered at first, the noosphere has continued to grow over
time, particularly during the age of electronics. Teilhard described the
noosphere on Earth as a crystallization: "A glow rippled outward from the
first spark of conscious reflection. The point of ignition grows larger.
The fire spreads in ever-widening circles, he wrote, "till finally the
whole planet is covered with incandescence."

His picture of the noosphere as a thinking membrane covering the planet was
almost biological - it was a globe clothing itself with a brain. Teilhard
wrote that the noosphere "results from the combined action of two
curvatures - the roundness of the earth and the cosmic convergence of the
mind."

Marshall McLuhan was drawn to the concept of the noosphere. Teilhard's
description of this electromagnetic phenomenon became a touchstone for
McLuhan's theories of the global "electric culture." In The Gutenberg
Galaxy, McLuhan quotes Teilhard: "What, in fact, do we see happening in the
modern paroxysm? It has been stated over and over again. Through the
discovery yesterday of the railway, the motor car and the aeroplane, the
physical influence of each man, formerly restricted to a few miles, now
extends to hundreds of leagues or more. Better still: thanks to the
prodigious biological event represented by the discovery of electromagnetic
waves, each individual finds himself henceforth (actively and passively)
simultaneously present, over land and sea, in every corner of the earth."
This simultaneous quality, McLuhan believed, "provides our lives again with
a tribal base." But this time around, the tribe comes together on a global
playing field.

We stand today at the beginning of Teilhard's third phase of evolution, the
moment at which the world is covered with the incandescent glow of
consciousness. Teilhard characterized this as "evolution becoming conscious
of itself." The Net, that great collectivizer of minds, is the primary tool
for our emergence into the third phase. "With cyberspace, we are, in
effect, hard-wiring the collective consciousness," says Barlow.

In introducing the idea of tangential energy - the energy of consciousness
- as a primary factor in evolution, Teilhard opened the door for a new
level of meaning. The history of the world, he wrote, "would thus appear no
longer as an interlocking succession of structural types replacing one
another, but as an ascension of inner sap spreading out in a forest of
consolidated instincts." This could very well be what the Net is doing -
consolidating our instincts - so that consciousness can continue to
develop.

Artificial life fans take this idea one step further. They see virtual life
- Teilhard's tangential energy - trying to break out of organic life into
new forms. The founder of artificial life research, Chris Langton, told
reporter Steven Levy that "there are these other forms of life, artificial
ones, that want to come into existence. And they are using me as a vehicle
for reproduction and for implementation."

According to Teilhard, this invisible virtual life has been with us since
the beginning.

We now have a vehicle - the Net - that enables us to see virtual life for
what it really is. It's not the 0s and the 1s - those are visible. Virtual
life is, as Barlow argues, "the space between the 0s and the 1s. It's the
pattern of information that is relevant. Invisible life is composed of
those life forms emerging in the space between things. Cyberspace helps us
see these forms by taking us past the mechanical barrier."

The global mind may be more potential than actual in 1995. As de Duve
points out, if the noosphere seems laughable now, imagine how today's
technology would look to our predecessors. He writes, "A merger of minds
into Teilhard's noosphere remains no more than a poetic image at the
present time. But so would the notion of satellite television to Lucy [an
early Australopithecus hominoid] if she had been capable of conceiving this
possibility. Who can tell what the future has in store?"

Teilhard warned that evolution is a slow process, beset with setbacks and
reversals. We should not question the forces that are connecting our
neurons, he argued; rather we should expand our own awareness and embrace
our new complexity. Teilhard would readily see the Net as a necessary step
along this path. At this point, the earth needs humanity to build the
noosphere. As we become conscious of our group mind, a new relationship
with the earth emerges. When that happens, Teilhard wrote, "we have the
beginning of a new age. The earth 'gets a new skin.' Better still, it finds
its soul."

Jennifer Cobb Kreisberg (jkreisberg@igc.apc.org) has an MA in theology and
studies the sacred dimension of technology.


------------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun
------------beta test URL:http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
---------------------------------------------------------------

We think in generalities, but we live in detail.

--Alfred North Whitehead





From hoon@apk.net Fri Nov 03 01:50:28 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: alt.destroy.the.earth
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 07:50:28 -0500


From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Subject: alt.destroy.the.earth
-snip-

>Consider the following beautiful words (part of a much bigger reply to
>the why question)
>
>>Why destroy the dirt?  Because I don't don't like gravity.  Because
>>it's there.  There is nothing but despair and hopelessness in the
>>world and the sooner you open your eyes to the hideous truth, the
>>sooner you'll wish you were DEAD.

Miles what do you think is going in terms of archetypes and hidden aspects
in alt.destroy--- ?

Your excerpt strikes me as representing somebody's insincere nihilism, but
I've already interpreted it from my less fatalistic point of view...but
beautiful?

So, why do the above words strike you as being beautiful?

>
>Anyway I just wanted to mention it, a quick little point. Hope you are
>all having whatever you think you would like to have.

(Luckily what I think I would like to have I'm not getting!)

Stephen

------------------------------------------------Stephen Calhoun
------------beta test URL:http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
---------------------------------------------------------------

"Any time you don't want anything, you get it."

Coolidge's Law (Calvin Coolidge)





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Fri Nov 03 19:50:12 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: alt.destroy.the.earth
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 18:50:12 +1200 (NZT)


Forgive me for getting a little "NetDynamicish", but have any of you 
checked out a.d.t.e?

It seems that "culture" is going on there (I mean "culture" in the 
sociologists sense that sociologists use the word - in the sense that 
Rugby League has a strong "culture"; where there is a whole heap of 
archetypes and hidden realities, special words and group 
consensus/discussion and that sort of thing).  
People say things like "I go away for a few weeks and come back to see 
this ... What has happened to this place?" - take a look, you'll get a 
feeling for what I mean, like there is a strong consensus there. 
Theres also a strong rhythm to the place... with great regularity someone 
asks 
 "Why do you all want to destroy the earth don't you realise (its a 
great place/that you would die to/that its evil to think such things/etc)"
This gives the more regular contributers a great chance to leap in with 
an exposition of the merits and cultural/psychological background to 
their "culture". There is a strong focus to the place - basically, people 
suggest ways of destroying the earth and others critique the ideas. This 
leads to a very simple incredibly focused discussion that is simple 
enough for people to understand and partake in as they browse through the 
net. As in a lot of places on the net it is mostly very civil, 
charming, witty discussion that doesn't attack the actors so much as 
their theories.
It is also a developing thing, it seems *to me* that progress is being 
made. The first time I looked at the group they were just coming to the 
realisation that it is not enough to kill everyone on earth and all the 
animals, and not enough either to destroy just the surface of the earth 
either (since with the right chemical balance life might just rise 
again), therefore the Earth had to be completely and utterly destroyed in 
total and all its mass removed. The last time I looked, this thought 
seemed to have been taken as basic writ (suggestions such as a huge goat 
being quickly dismissed on account of the fact that the earth would 
eventually pass through the goat and become a breeding ground for more 
life). 
Finally I have been touched by the culture of the place, subcultures come 
and go like the flickering wind, but here there is a lively culture in 
which the early musings are being recorded and which is taking place 
right before your eyes. How cool. 
Consider the following beautiful words (part of a much bigger reply to 
the why question)

>Why destroy the dirt?  Because I don't don't like gravity.  Because
>it's there.  There is nothing but despair and hopelessness in the
>world and the sooner you open your eyes to the hideous truth, the
>sooner you'll wish you were DEAD.

Anyway I just wanted to mention it, a quick little point. Hope you are 
all having whatever you think you would like to have.

Miles "I hate General Protection Faults" Thompson





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Nov 04 22:45:53 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: What have we lost?
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 1995 09:45:53 GMT

On Sun, 5 Nov 1995 08:46:33 +1200 (NZT), Miles Thompson
<miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz> wrote:

> 
> I'm listening Stephen. I just don't know quite what to say. Yet.
> Miles
> 

What a great wee note Miles -- I have been out climbing in the
hills and geting fit -- but readeing _everything_ and thinking
about it all too -- back soon!


walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Nov 04 22:45:53 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: Re: What have we lost?
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 04 Nov 1995 09:45:53 GMT

On Sun, 5 Nov 1995 08:46:33 +1200 (NZT), Miles Thompson
<miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz> wrote:

> 
> I'm listening Stephen. I just don't know quite what to say. Yet.
> Miles
> 

What a great wee note Miles -- I have been out climbing in the
hills and geting fit -- but readeing _everything_ and thinking
about it all too -- back soon!


walter

_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Sun Nov 05 03:23:20 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Focus/Fuzzy
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 09:23:20 -0500


>On Thu, 2 Nov 1995, Stephen Calhoun wrote:
>> From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
-snip-
>interests me about the place is that in being so simple and focused, I
>think it is a nice good solid ground on which a development in the
>senses that we are exploring here could be built.

Open-ended groups compared with singular-subject groups...how in our case
here could we enable a single subject to be developed and *progressed*
conclusively or at least in a satisfying-to-the-contributors way?

(I sense the threads are like ocean waves. Some waves envelope you
thoroughly and with great force and sustain their power for some time,
others involve you for a brief moment, some are small washes, some you
miss...undertow too!)

This is sometimes frustrating for me, although I might be as much a part of
the problem as a solution since I love to *talk*.

Focus on a thread versus Fuzzy threads coming and going?


-----------------------------------
I wonder why I wonder why.
I wonder why I wonder I wonder.
I wonder why I wonder why I wonder why I wonder!
--Richard Feynman





From hoon@apk.net Sun Nov 05 03:23:24 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: hope2have
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 09:23:24 -0500


>> > Hope you are all having whatever you think you would like to have.

>>On Thu, 2 Nov 1995, Stephen Calhoun wrote:
>> (Luckily what I think I would like to have I'm not getting!)

>> From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
>But Stephen, this sounds like a terrible situation. Perhaps it needs
>work? :)

Terrible to have some kind of ability to sort between *thinking about what
I would like to have* versus what *I do have* and *might have*? I'd go
farther and say that what's necessary for me to have is, today, largely out
of my control. And hardly a terrible state of affairs...in fact it is a
state of affairs I am grateful for and is hard won in as much as I've had
something to do with its coming about. I do desire to, want to, and
fantasize about having much that I don't have...I don't pay much attention
to it unless it seems to have a certain inner perogative attached to it. Or
unless I'm seduced by my own wanting.

Anyway...

This side track strikes me as relevent in that any talk of *wanting to
have* is about a complex personal process and of course we are wanting to
have something here, be it sharing, family, community, progress, etc.




-----------------------------------
I wonder why I wonder why.
I wonder why I wonder I wonder.
I wonder why I wonder why I wonder why I wonder!
--Richard Feynman





From hoon@apk.net Sun Nov 05 03:23:28 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Playing roles
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 09:23:28 -0500


-snip-
>the group. For instance in adte I imagine someone who for a second takes
>on the astounded outsider role would be able to see before they begin
>that they are in the company of others of similar nature and perhaps do
>something that develops the roles that others have formed.

Hmmm. A participant reflects on their effect on others by interpreting
their response and gathers that into a larger consideration of their
desired effect on others, wrap it all into a role (and name it whatever you
want, Father, Mercurious, Pretensious : } ). So, roles evolve according to
who's there and how they interact, and, that a newcomer might intentionally
try to change other person's roles. Is this what you mean?

I've experienced an example of this which is how a severe scorching in a
polite but no less hot series of flames tossed my way, correctively, turned
me from an authoritative (my fantasy role too,) role to a humbled and
insecure...yeah, kid.

This was an interesting situ because it brought up a RL personal pattern:
to be transported to the role of chiuld in the face of the negative parent.

This was not the correspondant's intention however. In fact, because I'm
able to refelct on those patterns, I can recognize roles that may well be
hidden by my self-assertion in RL, and here.

Here? I'm attempting to reveal myself too, so talking about how my "child"
may react to your "parent" is all about a second and deeper layer of
role-playing. And those who choose to do so, are shedding coverings and
this is the stuff of intimacy...taking clothes and masks off.



-----------------------------------
I wonder why I wonder why.
I wonder why I wonder I wonder.
I wonder why I wonder why I wonder why I wonder!
--Richard Feynman





From hoon@apk.net Sun Nov 05 03:23:32 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: alt.destroy.the.earth
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 1995 09:23:32 -0500


-snip-

>Also, in other
>groups, people to bring in the agendas and roles that they have formed in
>the other world, in adte it is all play, so that the bringing in of the
>RL is a much more hidden thing, though perhaps more powerful because of
>it. Of course it seems like a group for teenagers and the less mature. As
>such there seems to be a little bit of a hidden agenda of parent
>bashing, of criticism of the world as useless and painful - not from the
>'save-the-world' angle - but rather from the 'what has it done for me' angle.

It is also a fantasy about what one would do to the earth. To destroy it or
save it. A facile comment -and I haven't lurked in that group- would be to
call it a God fantasy...but there is something more probably true if indeed
it is teenagers mostly...which is an expression of powerlessness to shape
the/their world; your *what has it done for me* being apt.

I think of Tama and how her world can barely contain her! (A complement to
you Tama.)

But, does not this powerlessness lead some adults into cyberspace too? It
has, to some extent led me here!




-----------------------------------
I wonder why I wonder why.
I wonder why I wonder I wonder.
I wonder why I wonder why I wonder why I wonder!
--Richard Feynman





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Sun Nov 05 09:43:39 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: alt.destroy.the.earth
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 08:43:39 +1200 (NZT)



On Thu, 2 Nov 1995, Stephen Calhoun wrote:
> From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
> >>Why destroy the dirt?  Because I don't don't like gravity.  Because
> >>it's there.  There is nothing but despair and hopelessness in the
> >>world and the sooner you open your eyes to the hideous truth, the
> >>sooner you'll wish you were DEAD.
>
> Miles what do you think is going in terms of archetypes and hidden aspects
> in alt.destroy--- ?
> 
> Your excerpt strikes me as representing somebody's insincere nihilism, but
> I've already interpreted it from my less fatalistic point of view...but
> beautiful?

Ok ok so Beautiful may have been overstating the case a little, but 
certainly its beautiful to see that peoples clever prose is being put out 
into this world and read by other people at such a rate. Its the sort of 
thing that would make Bloomsbury set happy I think. Also, the whole of 
this post is more impressive than just this little snippet I cut out. 
Also cool is that subsequent people suggested ways that they could join 
with this fellow and continued the essay a little more.
As to archetypes, the group is perhaps a little exceptional in that it 
does have pretty strong archetypes which people seem to take on with 
great regularity - witty pessimist/defender of the faith; astounded 
outsider; scientific inventor. On the other hand they are few and simple 
and the interactions between them are not too complex at this stage. What 
interests me about the place is that in being so simple and focused, I 
think it is a nice good solid ground on which a development in the 
senses that we are exploring here could be built. Other groups can be so 
swamped by different voices that no one has time to hear each other, and 
to form stereotypes or archetypical concepts from within the framework of 
the group. For instance in adte I imagine someone who for a second takes  
on the astounded outsider role would be able to see before they begin 
that they are in the company of others of similar nature and perhaps do 
something that develops the roles that others have formed. Also, in other 
groups, people to bring in the agendas and roles that they have formed in 
the other world, in adte it is all play, so that the bringing in of the 
RL is a much more hidden thing, though perhaps more powerful because of 
it. Of course it seems like a group for teenagers and the less mature. As 
such there seems to be a little bit of a hidden agenda of parent 
bashing, of criticism of the world as useless and painful - not from the 
'save-the-world' angle - but rather from the 'what has it done for me' angle.

> So, why do the above words strike you as being beautiful?
I dunno. Just thought I'd mention it.

> > Hope you are all having whatever you think you would like to have.
> (Luckily what I think I would like to have I'm not getting!)
But Stephen, this sounds like a terrible situation. Perhaps it needs 
work? :)

See ya all later
Miles





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Sun Nov 05 09:46:33 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: What have we lost?
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 08:46:33 +1200 (NZT)


I'm listening Stephen. I just don't know quite what to say. Yet.
Miles





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Nov 06 02:38:06 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: == Psybernet Archives ==
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 1995 13:38:06 GMT

== Psybernet Archives ==

All of the Psybernet Conference is now available by the request
system -- which will send you long emails of the archived
messages.  

With this system you only have to send a message

PSY1@link.equinox.gen.nz

to get the first archive.   PSY2@link.equinox.gen.nz for the
second one, and so on.  We are up to PSY57.

You can get quite a few other files this way
INFO@link.equinox.gen.nz for example will give you the latest
instructions about this request system.  Note that you do not
need to enter a subject or anything in the body of the message
(it just goes to a machine).  It is an unusual and elegant simple
method, give it a go.

You can get a description and subscription instructions to the
Psybernet Conference Mailing List by sending a message to

P_CONF@link.southern.co.nz

CATALOG           Listing all the Psybernet Conference 
                             archive PSY## files with their
                             corresponding dates.


AION1                 Archive of the Aion Reading Group,
AION2                 Jul 26 '95 to  Jul 29 '95.
                            and so on, we are up to Aion20

P_LIB                  Full list of zipped files much more
                            comprehensive than the txt files,
                            these files are available by sending 
                            to listserv@link.equinox.gen.nz with
                            GET <file_name in the text>  These
                            files are zipped and uuencoded, you 
                           will need to be able to handle that.

Thanks to Brooke, who has helped to get the archive so well set
up.

Questions to:

walterl@chch.planet.org.nz





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Nov 06 02:38:06 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: == Psybernet Archives ==
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 1995 13:38:06 GMT

== Psybernet Archives ==

All of the Psybernet Conference is now available by the request
system -- which will send you long emails of the archived
messages.  

With this system you only have to send a message

PSY1@link.equinox.gen.nz

to get the first archive.   PSY2@link.equinox.gen.nz for the
second one, and so on.  We are up to PSY57.

You can get quite a few other files this way
INFO@link.equinox.gen.nz for example will give you the latest
instructions about this request system.  Note that you do not
need to enter a subject or anything in the body of the message
(it just goes to a machine).  It is an unusual and elegant simple
method, give it a go.

You can get a description and subscription instructions to the
Psybernet Conference Mailing List by sending a message to

P_CONF@link.southern.co.nz

CATALOG           Listing all the Psybernet Conference 
                             archive PSY## files with their
                             corresponding dates.


AION1                 Archive of the Aion Reading Group,
AION2                 Jul 26 '95 to  Jul 29 '95.
                            and so on, we are up to Aion20

P_LIB                  Full list of zipped files much more
                            comprehensive than the txt files,
                            these files are available by sending 
                            to listserv@link.equinox.gen.nz with
                            GET <file_name in the text>  These
                            files are zipped and uuencoded, you 
                           will need to be able to handle that.

Thanks to Brooke, who has helped to get the archive so well set
up.

Questions to:

walterl@chch.planet.org.nz





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From hoon@apk.net Mon Nov 06 12:44:41 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: playing roles
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 1995 18:44:41 -0500


>On Sat, 4 Nov 1995, Stephen Calhoun wrote:
>> Here? I'm attempting to reveal myself too, so talking about how my "child"
>> may react to your "parent" is all about a second and deeper layer of
>> role-playing. And those who choose to do so, are shedding coverings and
>> this is the stuff of intimacy...taking clothes and masks off.

>Miles:
>Yes, I know what you mean. And vot roles do you play here? Ze child? Or
>is it something different?

The role of a lifetime: me!

But, am aware of compensation for that child as life-making...sometimes
life-denying strategem. Zots ze trooff.

More later!


-----------------------------------
I wonder why I wonder why.
I wonder why I wonder I wonder.
I wonder why I wonder why I wonder why I wonder!
--Richard Feynman





From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Mon Nov 06 15:25:01 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Playing roles
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 14:25:01 +1200 (NZT)





On Sat, 4 Nov 1995, Stephen Calhoun wrote:
> Hmmm. A participant reflects on their effect on others by interpreting
> their response and gathers that into a larger consideration of their
> desired effect on others, wrap it all into a role (and name it whatever you
> want, Father, Mercurious, Pretensious : } ). So, roles evolve according to
> who's there and how they interact, and, that a newcomer might intentionally
> try to change other person's roles. Is this what you mean?
As to whether this is what  I meant, I think  not quite. A person 
reflects on who they might appear to others, and seeeing roles existing, 
feels without perhaps knowing that others would see them as they see 
those other roles, and thinks, I want to appear thus, and so they re4~ 
create a role and fill a role at the same time. So yah. but not ze other 
part, they do not try to change the roles of anathor person, they are 
focused zo much on their own selves that they do not intentionally try to 
manipulate the way ze other person is. I think.

> <snip>
> This was an interesting situ because it brought up a RL personal pattern:
> to be transported to the role of child in the face of the negative parent.
> 
> This was not the correspondant's intention however. In fact, because I'm
> able to refelct on those patterns, I can recognize roles that may well be
> hidden by my self-assertion in RL, and here.
> 
> Here? I'm attempting to reveal myself too, so talking about how my "child"
> may react to your "parent" is all about a second and deeper layer of
> role-playing. And those who choose to do so, are shedding coverings and
> this is the stuff of intimacy...taking clothes and masks off.
Yes, I know what you mean. And vot roles do you play here? Ze child? Or 
is it something different?




From ctpost@aol.com Wed Nov 08 03:21:23 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: travels in ND
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:21:23 -0500


Walter writes:

>>>I want what we have and not the big band.  And why not --
"we" have ND if we want it -- no need for another.<<<

I tuned in to ND for a couple days and didn't hear much music at all. It
sounded more like what you hear outside my office bldg on 6th Avenue in NY --
the roar of heavy traffic. For me, Psybernet is still that hall with an open
door on a quiet country lane.  

Ron



From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Wed Nov 08 18:00:40 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama's brief respite from sojurn
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 17:00:40 +1200


Greetings to the Cyber-L collective!!

I have now finished my Uni exam sojurn & am winding down.
My exams were satisfactory-hopefully enough to pass all 5 papers.
I am trying get back into Drama next year-but I need to meet the
requirements which I all readt have missed-hopefully though I can wangle it
so I can get in.But I cant help thinking about what does this Ba do for
me-& perhaps it would be better to be out of that world & be in something
more practical-well some kinda film\television creative course-But I guess
going to Uni is interesting I feel I'm in a different-space learning things
and growing up a little so maybe Uni is a stepping stone its looks like I'm
doing a englisg degree with components of enhlish,  film studies & drama &
maybe bits and peices of history and computers.I'm promising myself that
next year I have to get more involved-meet more people-join more clubs-the
tramping club sounds good + I might give wind surfing a go and do more
work-this year I was trying to fit in and was rather confused,  lazy and
complicated-RESTLESS.My attention is kinda divided-well I'm going up to
Cristchurch on Friday- gee Walter maybe I could meet you-If you want-he he
he-I has talked to Miles 2 times on the phone but have not meet him.For the
rest of the holidays I'm gonna hag out with friends + go fruit picking for
a month or more in Bleinheim and Roxburgh-hope to make atleast a couple of
thousand.

I read the last 3 weeks month Cyber -L stuff in about 1 hour some
interesting and worth while stuff going on-I though it funny about Walter
feelin Paternal towards me & Miles-well I guess he is now I think about
it.Teh stuff about that Jessuit dude was pretty interesting stuff-can some
one recommend some books bt mculuhn or however you spell it?

Hey Mr Calhoon I just though I would remind you Thanx anyway for the
compliment but contrary to your understanding I am infact not a her I am a
he,  sorry to disapoint you-you can ask Miles-sinece he has talked on the
phone to me & I do like Claire she is a her so then I would be a
lesbian-how interesting? I guess you just mucked up eh?

-I think of Tama and how her world can barely contain her! (A complement to
you Tama.)-really I guess you gain a different perception of me than what I
feel & know,  what I project via cyberspace to what I feel, hmm?The world
bearly containing me-yes-I am quite vivasious at times & crazy and I have
dreams and aspirations at teh mo I want ton be involved in the creative
process of film or television-but its not easy and that makes me fell a
little uneasy-I would love to go wild and achieve break out no fear of
failure live experiment meet people feel more think more create LIVE.But
your world bearly vcontaining me is a little unmature at the mo-But I do
feel restless like I want to break out and do what I want-but its not so
easy.I do feel that so therefore what I feel and think I can do-so deep
down there I'll break it out and see what I can come out with!!

Oh well have to be going now & are going away so dont know exactly when
when I check e-mail nxt but I'll be back-you can count on it-
Ka ke te ano,  Sianara (my name Tama is a common name for cats in Japan)

Oh & mr Calhoon how do you come up with so many qoutes do you have a qoute
dictionary or something-well I think you should get the award for most
interesting varied always changing-qoutes-keep up the good work
everyone-BYE


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra





From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Wed Nov 08 23:49:18 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Off tramping for a few days.
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 1995 10:49:18 GMT

Hi in the Psybernet Conference,

I am about to go on a tramp for 4 days -- I will be thinking of
you all.

I have just written a similar note to the AION Reading Group and
I will quote a bit here, as it is just as relevant here:


>>> I had a bit of a scare, having very high blood pressure.  This has led to me doing more exercise, walking and rock climbing -- spring also helps.  It means I am sleepy at night an am not doing marathon nights at the computer, which was the way I sustained my volume of work in cyberspace.  I miss it!  I have responses to many things here -- but cant find the time.  For all that I am enthusiastic with what we are doing and am not behind in the _reading_.

I look forward to whatever comes up by Monday night (Sunday in
the US) -- <<<

Warm wishes,


Walter.







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Wed Nov 08 23:49:18 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: Off tramping for a few days.
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 1995 10:49:18 GMT

Hi in the Psybernet Conference,

I am about to go on a tramp for 4 days -- I will be thinking of
you all.

I have just written a similar note to the AION Reading Group and
I will quote a bit here, as it is just as relevant here:


>>> I had a bit of a scare, having very high blood pressure.  This has led to me doing more exercise, walking and rock climbing -- spring also helps.  It means I am sleepy at night an am not doing marathon nights at the computer, which was the way I sustained my volume of work in cyberspace.  I miss it!  I have responses to many things here -- but cant find the time.  For all that I am enthusiastic with what we are doing and am not behind in the _reading_.

I look forward to whatever comes up by Monday night (Sunday in
the US) -- <<<

Warm wishes,


Walter.







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hoon@apk.net Thu Nov 09 02:52:09 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama's brief respite from sojurn
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 08:52:09 -0500


Tama.Neill wrote:
-snip-
>
>Hey Mr Calhoon I just though I would remind you Thanx anyway for the
>compliment but contrary to your understanding I am infact not a her I am a
>he,  sorry to disapoint you-you can ask Miles-sinece he has talked on the
>phone to me & I do like Claire she is a her so then I would be a
>lesbian-how interesting? I guess you just mucked up eh?

I sure did. (Now I close my eyes, a big hand comes up and erases my
Tama-image away...fuzzy at first, a male face appears...new image
building...)

Good example of projection...not only that, but your hooks, IOW, how I
interpreted an image or fantasy of you (which cannot ever be said to be
you,)
caught my projections and they were of my internal anima (a personification
out of the archetypal pattern of the feminine...all of this happening in
the recesses of my Psyche. Confused? It's neat to me,) to the extent that
the qualities of your post suggested a feminine person to me.

I represented to myself through my own biases and associations this
projection and made it into an image of Tama.

Example:

Your unmediated expressive energies, your instantaneous emotional
evaluating of your own experience, your keen and variable intuition, your
forthrightness, your self-revelation, your descriptive prose...all
suggested to me that a woman was behind them. Well, one was...the woman in
me, so to speak.

What strikes me is that all these descriptives are appropriate and suggest
to me what kind of guy you are now that you've helped me re-clothe him.

Still, who you are to me, especially given the constraints of this medium,
is my fantasy or imagining of you.

By American standards you'd be seen as much less emotionally repressed than
your average American college man. Just a dim guess!

Anyway, I believe you. : )

>what I project via cyberspace to what I feel, hmm?

Reminder, who you are is hard to project accurately in cyberspace,
sometimes in real life too!, because (most?) people will project
ideas/fantasies which have no correspondance with your reality, back onto
you. (Which is also why Jung-folk will talk about fairy tales and
mythology...common patterns of interpersonal, intrapersonal, etc.
experience...example: the White Knight, or in RL, the boy friend as
saviour.)

My own experience is that: Who I think another person is, is wrapped up in
who I (1)want them to be, (2)who I think I am, (3)that person whom I don't
have any idea that I am, and (4)likewise, the hidden aspects of the other
person, and finally, (5)what is actually presented to me in the person of
another...which I am hopeless in being unable to re-present back to my self
objectively. Darn!

It makes (my) life and relationships interesting. End of lecture!

>Oh & mr Calhoon how do you come up with so many qoutes do you have a qoute
>dictionary or something-well I think you should get the award for most

I collect quotes

My apologies to you Tama for the misrepresentation ; ) ... still should be
taken as a complement nonetheless!


-----------------------------------
The future is something which everyone reaches at the rate of sixty
minutes an hour, whatever he does, whoever he is. --Clive Staples Lewis
-----------------------------------

Get to know HooN: http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html





From hoon@apk.net Thu Nov 09 03:29:38 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama's brief respite from sojurn
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 09:29:38 -0500


Re: Tama

Oh...your name threw me as well! Will try to keep in mind the international
nature of cyberspace and how easily we cross cultures too.


-----------------------------------
The future is something which everyone reaches at the rate of sixty
minutes an hour, whatever he does, whoever he is. --Clive Staples Lewis
-----------------------------------

Get to know HooN: http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html





From hschr@nwu.edu Fri Nov 10 01:59:09 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Sense of place in Cyberspace
From: "Herbert W. Schroeder" <hschr@nwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 1995 06:59:09 -0600



Ron writes:
> 
> I tuned in to ND for a couple days and didn't hear much music at all. It
> sounded more like what you hear outside my office bldg on 6th Avenue in NY --
> the roar of heavy traffic. For me, Psybernet is still that hall with an open
> door on a quiet country lane.  
> 

Interesting use of metaphors to describe the "feel" of different cyber-places.

The concept of "sense of place" is quite popular in the environmental design
and planning fields right now. Individual places are thought each to have
their own unique identity and feeling quality. I wonder how this carries
over from RL places to cyberspace? Are there cyber-places that feel more
urban and others that feel more rural? Places that are public and private?
Are there places in cyber space where one goes to experience solitude? Might
there even be sacred places -- Cathedrals in cyberspace, maybe?

My own sense of the internet right now is that it is like a vast sprawling
building, a maze of rooms, doors, and corridors, all connecting in complex
ways. The whole thing is very new and artificial, and very much caught up in
its own energy; like a young, unplanned city expanding into a virgin
landscape. I wonder what cyberspace (or whatever it evolves into) will be
like in 50 or 100 years. Will there be historic districts? Places that evoke
a sense of history and tradition? Perhaps even parks and nature preserves?

- Herb 


------------------------------------------------
Herb Schroeder (hschr@nwu.edu)
Evanston, Illinois
USA
------------------------------------------------




From ctpost@aol.com Fri Nov 10 03:53:55 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 09:53:55 -0500


Stephen,

>>>My own experience is that: Who I think another person is, is wrapped up in
who I (1)want them to be, (2)who I think I am, (3)that person whom I don't
have any idea that I am, and (4)likewise, the hidden aspects of the other
person, and finally, (5)what is actually presented to me in the person of
another...which I am hopeless in being unable to re-present back to my self
objectively. Darn!<<<

Paying closer attention to what people actually say about themselves may
clear up some of this for you. I miss a lot, but it seems to me that Tama's
gender (tho not stereotypical, as you noted) was pretty clear from the start.

Ron






From hoon@apk.net Fri Nov 10 05:47:09 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:47:09 -0500


>Stephen,
-snip-

>
>Paying closer attention to what people actually say about themselves may
>clear up some of this for you. I miss a lot, but it seems to me that Tama's
>gender (tho not stereotypical, as you noted) was pretty clear from the start.
>
>Ron

Probably read my email too quickly! I think I will go back to her initial
extensive post to see what my blind spot was...still willing to admit it
was part projection, which is to say: I wanted Tama to be a female! ; )

Thanks Ron for the reminder. Its appreciated.

     "Tradition is a guide and not a jailer."

                                W. Somerset Maugham





From hoon@apk.net Tue Nov 14 17:29:05 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: a fairy tale
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 23:29:05 -0500


Given few whispers down our psyber-L hallway recently, I thought I'd cut
copy and paste today's laugh of the day newsgroup.

(Hope your tramp was a bunch a fun, Walter!)

Best to all!
===


Once there were 3 little pigs who lived together in mutual
respect and in harmony with their environment. Using
materials that were indigenous to the area they each built a
beautiful house. One pig built a house of straw, one a house
of sticks, and one a house of dung, clay and creeper vines
shaped into bricks and baked in a small kiln. When they were
finished, the pigs were satisfied with their work and
settled back to live in peace and self-determination.
But their idyll was soon shattered. One day, along came a
big, bad wolf with expansionist ideas. He saw the pigs and
grew very hungry in both a physical and ideological sense.
When the pigs saw the wolf, they ran into the house of
straw. The wolf ran up to the house and banged on the door,
shouting, "Little pigs, little pigs, let me in!"
The pigs shouted back, "Your gunboat tactics hold no fear
for pigs defending their homes and culture."
But the wolf wasn't to be denied what he thought was his
manifest destiny. So he huffed and puffed and blew down the
house of straw. The frightened pigs ran to the house of
sticks, with the wolf in hot pursuit. Where the house had
stood, other wolves bought up the land and started a banana
plantation.
At the house of sticks, the wolf again banged on the door
and shouted, "Little, pigs, little pigs, let me in!"
The pigs shouted back, "Go to hell, you carnivorous,
imperialistic oppressor!"
At this the wolf huffed and puffed and blew down the house
of sticks. The pigs ran to the house of bricks, with the
wolf close at their heels. Where the house of sticks had
stood, other wolves built a time-share condo resort complex
for vacationing wolves, with each unit a fibreglass
reconstruction of the house of sticks, as well as native
curio shops, snorkelling and dolphin shows.
At the house of bricks, the wolf again banged on the door
and shouted, "Little pigs, little pigs, let me in!"
This time in response, the pigs sang songs of solidarity and
wrote letters of protest to the United Nations.
By now the wolf was getting angry at the pigs' refusal to
see the situation from the carnivore's point of view. So he
huffed and puffed, and huffed and puffed, then grabbed his
chest and fell over dead from a massive heart attack brought
on from eating too many fatty foods.
The three little pigs rejoiced that justice had triumphed
and did a little dance around the corpse of the wolf. Their
next step was to liberate their homeland. They gathered
together a band of other pigs who had been forced off their
lands. This new brigade of porcinistas attacked the resort
complex with machine-guns and rocket launchers and
slaughtered the cruel wolf oppressors, sending a clear
signal to the rest of the hemisphere not to meddle in their
internal affairs. Then the pigs set up a model socialist
democracy with free education, universal health care and
affordable housing for everyone.  {My note: well it is a
fairy tale after all.}

Please note: The wolf in this story was a metaphorical
construct. No actual wolves were harmed in the writing of
the story.

-----------------------------------------------------
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
-----------------------------------------------------

"Confidence is simply that quiet, assured feeling you
 have before you fall flat on your face."

>>  Dr. L. Binder (1927-)






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Wed Nov 15 14:31:22 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 14:31:22 +1300 (NZDT)


Hello everyone,
 I'm back from Christchurch,  had a pretty good time,  soaked in some hot
pools for a bit-but it was better in winter,  oh & me & my mum went on a
bit of a drive out to a lake in the backblocks-everything is so incredibly
green and lush at the moment.Just out of curiosity where did you go
tramping Walter? Hoped you had a good time,  I'm gonna join the uni
tramping club next year.


Wow that was interesting your example of the qualities that led you to
beleive that I was a girl-"Your unmediated expressive energies, your
instantaneous emotional
evaluating of your own experience, your keen and variable intuition, your
forthrightness, your self-revelation, your descriptive prose...all
suggested to me that a woman was behind them. Well, one was...the woman in
me, so to speak."

"Still, who you are to me, especially given the constraints of this medium,
is my fantasy or imagining of you."-yea well I wanted to talk with a woman
on this group too & talking to Victoria was cool.

"By American standards you'd be seen as much less emotionally repressed than
your average American college man. Just a dim guess!"-yea I guess so-when
it comes down to it I'm pretty sensitive + I was also pretty much brougt up
by my mother-which might explain a few things-I did not really have a real
male role modle-so I guess I picked a few caracteristics from my
Mum(Americans pronounce Mom).I'm actually gonna track down my father soon-I
have never meet him-who knows I might have some siblings-I'm an only child.

"Oh...your name threw me as well! Will try to keep in mind the international
nature of cyberspace and how easily we cross cultures too."
-Well heres a littel irony for you,  my name-Tama taken from the Maori
language-the first people in NZ-well it actually transaltes as Boy + eldest
son-which I am both...

Hey Walter I was thinking about ringing you in Christchurch but sorry I
never got around to it,  I will next time when I'm in Christchurch if you
want me to? I could look you up or you could give me your number-up to you?
I'm going to pick Cherrys in Bleinhem in december & I be passing through...

Well-update on Claire-I still have feelings for her-I feel affection for
her and care for her but of course she does not want a relationship-which
is disapointing-but not heartbreaking-I could choose to Love her but my
self preservation depends on me not doing that unless she was could receive
and return it.I brought her a glass globe you know the ones that have
glitter in the christmas ones-with a golden sun and a moon.I gave it to her
yeasterday.Oh well enough of my stuff.Lets just surfice to say I am a
little frustrated-want more but can not have it-this is different from
physical relationship I had with my last girl friend.Claires working full
time now and goes away in January and I go away in December so Maybe a
break from one another will help me lose it.Or though I would rather be
with her-Nevermind thats life.

Oh Stephen I will check out your Web page some time when I can find a
machine with Int access.

OK- hope everyone is Good-I better sign off now so Sianara & Aregato
Gaziemus(bye & thanks in Japanese spellling is probably a bit wonky
though-we have a Japenese girl living with us-Yoko...)






                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






From hoon@apk.net Fri Nov 17 05:37:42 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 11:37:42 -0500


Tama wrote:
-snip-
>Wow that was interesting your example of the qualities that led you to
>beleive that I was a girl-"Your unmediated expressive energies, your
>instantaneous emotional
>evaluating of your own experience, your keen and variable intuition, your
>forthrightness, your self-revelation, your descriptive prose...all
>suggested to me that a woman was behind them. Well, one was...the woman in
>me, so to speak."

What do you suppose would be the result of a survey taken of all male
college students if you asked them one question: Is there a woman inside of
you? (No reason not to ponder taking a pole of all men using this
question.)

It took me over thirty years to get to the point where I took that *woman
inside of me* seriously. And it changed my life irrevocably to do so.

>
>"Still, who you are to me, especially given the constraints of this medium,
>is my fantasy or imagining of you."-yea well I wanted to talk with a woman
>on this group too & talking to Victoria was cool.

LOL. Helps to have an imagination unfettered by any sense of the
evidence...(the intuitive's catch-22).

>
>"By American standards you'd be seen as much less emotionally repressed than
>your average American college man. Just a dim guess!"-yea I guess so-when
>it comes down to it I'm pretty sensitive + I was also pretty much brougt up
>by my mother-which might explain a few things-I did not really have a real
>male role modle-so I guess I picked a few caracteristics from my
>Mum(Americans pronounce Mom).I'm actually gonna track down my father soon-I
>have never meet him-who knows I might have some siblings-I'm an only child.

I'm a mother's son too. (Boy am I!) Do you think that if we don't have any
experience of a mother or father we make one up either as an imagined
experience or imagine a father character who inhabits our dreams and
fantasies and desires?

>
>"Oh...your name threw me as well! Will try to keep in mind the international
>nature of cyberspace and how easily we cross cultures too."
>-Well heres a littel irony for you,  my name-Tama taken from the Maori
>language-the first people in NZ-well it actually transaltes as Boy + eldest
>son-which I am both...

Oddly, there are very few words in English that begin T-A-M-A. It's a nice
palindrome too: AM AT!

>Well-update on Claire-I still have feelings for her-I feel affection for
>her and care for her but of course she does not want a relationship-which
>is disapointing-but not heartbreaking-I could choose to Love her but my
>self preservation depends on me not doing that unless she was could receive
-snip-
>break from one another will help me lose it.Or though I would rather be
>with her-Nevermind thats life.

This could be called the *tension of the opposites*. :-) The Siren's song
calls many but few are chosen. This tortured me for quite some time as a
young man...and I didn't have even the slightest insight, as you do, that
my self-preservation mattered at all! You're ahead of the curve I'd
suggest.


Best to you Tama and the Psyber-L crew


=======================================================
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
=======================================================

The Measure of your Truth is the measure of your Talent
--Jose Antonio Torres






From ctpost@aol.com Sat Nov 18 03:17:50 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Sense of place
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 09:17:50 -0500


Herb writes:

>>>The concept of "sense of place" is quite popular in the environmental
design
and planning fields right now. Individual places are thought each to have
their own unique identity and feeling quality. I wonder how this carries
over from RL places to cyberspace?<<<

When this topic first came up, I wondered whether a declared environment
(e.g. a mountaintop, or seashore) might affect the quality and flow of
discourse. Now I'm not so sure such a thing is sustainable or even desirable.
MOOs and MUDs probably cover this area of human experience in cyberspace more
interestingly.

I speak of a hall on a country lane, but when I visualize myself on
Psybernet, I am often up in the stratosphere, looking down from a point over
the Pacific at the farflung points on the globe where we all live.  There is
a lot of distance and silence.  Reading your posts, however, I often feel
like I'm inside your heads, hearing a stream of verbalized consciousness.
 Distance and silence disappear. Unless you speak of the environment you are
in, and help me invoke an image of it, there is only darkness, too. We could
be in a closet with the door closed.  As I've said before, I find this
strangely distracting; it's hard for me to connect.

The country lane image says more about the quality and frequency of discourse
on this particular channel. Measured, respectful, sometimes rambling, but
never strident, a hubub of competing voices trying to be heard above the
rest.

thx
ROn




From hoon@apk.net Sat Nov 18 07:16:47 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Threads
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:16:47 -0500


-snip-

>> It feels to *me* like it goes around in circles.
-snip-
>responded:  this is the nature of the psyche, I can=EDt recall if
-snip-
>again, each time with new light or a different angle -- then
>suddenly we see the "face in the cloud"  that was there all
>along, but which we could not see.
-snip-

I agree as far as the nature of the psyche (nautilis-type spiral and higher
revolutions o' evolution)...yet, in going around in circles my feeling is
that
it's more two dimensional, simply that a thread doesn't necessarily cycle
up to the next level...sometimes.
>
>Stephen, do you find it frustrating?  Is there a direction you
>would have us pursue?
>
Hmmm. My mode is to play around and I'm still, three months in to this,
learning about the medium and getting used to things and  also being
willful and adapting...and re-adapting.

No pressure to get from here to there. It's a fine line too between
pursueing threads amongst those interested and being inundated with too
much email and then there's the sudden silence...which I've become
comfortable with.

My image of the thread is a pendulum: rocking back and forth, getting
impetus and then suddenly only one side may push it, and should that
happen, you eventually stop pushing and it loses its energy...

Yes, that can be frustrating.


Stephen

"We can do no great things, just small things with great love."
        - Unknown






From hoon@apk.net Sat Nov 18 07:18:10 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Edges
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:18:10 -0500


-snip-
>> CPUs, age-old conundrums continue to be clothed.
-snip-
>in the experiential interactions here I have a sense that we are
>_being and doing_ something at the edge of the old and the new --
>moving on into unchartered waters.  I am not thinking "leading
>edge" just "edge".

Talk about *edge*. Imagine *edge*. What's it feel like? (I'm wondering
about this myself.)

N_D has provoked me to think about the psychoanalytic catagories again in
considering what varieties of desire are served here and how this medium
works to effect such phenomena. And does it work uniquely?

The question about edge is: what is different here?

As we here have tossed about, the missing information because we aren't F2F
is provocative. Text self-expression opens up large perspectives in a darn
plethora  of fields.

Then there is the cross-cultural element. (WL: What would Edward Hall think
about this?)

In general this question about what's unique to this medium is a starting
point...at the same time building a coherent picture made up of our
observations/realizations concerning the edge(s?), I'm beginning to think,
requires that the contributions be archived, sorted, and distilled...off
line.

To deal with the three lists I'm participating in, I've had to experiment
with different ways of dealing with the information...how to process it
incoming, how to effectively determine what threads are worth holding in
mind, how to post-process the list, and how to do all this
time-efficiently.

Add in now: I'd like to go back through the databased archives I've created
and see how the threads interconnect! Try to begin to sort out that
*edge*...because I want to know about it.

[new thread to follow: CONTEXT?!]



"Telling the future by looking at the past assumes that conditions remain
constant.  This is like driving a car by looking in the rear view mirror."

    >>>Herb Brody






From hoon@apk.net Sat Nov 18 07:19:27 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Context???
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:19:27 -0500


There's a context: in the USA the numbnuts are taking about the
post-industrial, post-capitalist, *information age; economy; revolution;
etc.*.

I don't know what this means psychologically since we already have enough
*quality* information about how to live profound, compassionate,
altruistic, spiritual, ethical, unselfish, ... (you get my drift) ...
lives.

I personally can't help but imagine what it will be like for the first
world to be sitting at their internet interface while the world goes to
hell in a hand basket.

And given our multi-national media/entertainment industry here, the
overwhelming majority will be engaged in acting out all sorts of desires
which have little to do, if anything with, if you will, making the world a
better place.

Meanwhile behind the "a computer in every pot" kind of rhetoric, (as this
country throws several million more people into poverty :-[ ) is a not so
high hope that AT&T, Intel, Microsoft, Time/Warner, Playboy, and all the
gang will make boatloads of cash. On our desires' being fulfilled.

Finally...my own idea about utopia is: everybody an artist. Here I'm
hopeful: all this talk about distributed programs, dumb terminals (for the
'masses' ;] )
and network as CPU and I leap to think about distributed creativity,
distributed imagination, distributed intelligence, distributed
humane-ness???

>
>(BTW, Schoun's axe to
>> grind was to always argue against the idea that a person can wilfully
>> "self-improve".)
>

Ooops. Schoun would reject any idea that a digitally distributed orthodoxy
or distributed traditional intelligence would be possible.

But why would the creative cosmic force be working over the world this way?

;-)

Stephen


"The only devils in the world are those running in our own hearts.  That
is where the battle should be fought." >>>Mahatma Gandhi






From hoon@apk.net Sat Nov 18 07:20:08 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Alchemy
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:20:08 -0500


-snip-
>That applies here too -- we have this quite crisp focus in the
>list description, but we implement it with out recourse to our
>will -- this list happens, just as psychotherapy happens.  I see
>us using that model of letting it happen within a container,
>somewhat alchemical.

Walter, I sort of follow you. Yet, we have the option of stepping away from
our debasement (of energy) in this medium. This idea has only recently
struck me. Another way of putting it: how much of the tension of our
relationships in this space sticks to us when we have the computer turned
off?

My experience so far is: not very much if any. I can't so far get a hold of
this container...I see the crucible but I don't sense the container. OTOH,
the sense of others here doesn't disappear when the computer is off. I
guess I'm struggling with the *transference* without which there cannot be
a temenos.

(I'm attempting to pursue this point in N_D. Thankfully, here we can better
talk about such things imaginatively. Different traces for different
spaces.)

Stephen




"Our knowledge is a little island in a great ocean of non-knowledge."

                                Isaac Bashevis Singer






From hoon@apk.net Sat Nov 18 07:21:15 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Elements?
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:21:15 -0500


>> And yes, here are the elements of the work:
>
>> (1) Projections of community, family, parental figures...Cyberspace as a
>> simulcra of what may be lost to us. (Tempted to add: in late Capitalism! ;)
>>
>> (2) Logos driven analysis searching to explain processes, determine the
>> inner-workings of events.
>>
>> (3) Persona delivered by text; textual representations of who we'd like
>>  others,who are unlikely to meet us FtF, believe us to be.
>>
>> (4) Feelings-Eros-Intuition and the challenges of translating emotion,
>> touch, taste, aroma, color, tactile-ness, sound, gesture through this
>> medium.
>>
>> (5) Good Stuff lost in both the signal and the noise.
-snip-

>I have long had this idea of having a list of Psyber Classics
>where the seminal discussions on our core themes archetype
>available for our common foundations.  That is a bit like looking
>for the kernels.

It would be great to learn what those who are participating, or wish to
participate, think are the keys to thinking/feeling this medium is about
psychologically, sociologically, spiritually, _ _ _ly.

====================================================================
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
====================================================================

If you do not tell the truth about yourself you cannot tell it about
other people.
    -- Virginia Woolf






From hschr@nwu.edu Mon Nov 20 10:25:44 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Sense of place
From: "Herbert W. Schroeder" <hschr@nwu.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 15:25:44 -0600


Ron wrote:
>
>When this topic first came up, I wondered whether a declared environment
>(e.g. a mountaintop, or seashore) might affect the quality and flow of
>discourse. Now I'm not so sure such a thing is sustainable or even desirable.

I agree. I think it would be artificial and arbitrary. 

>Reading your posts, however, I often feel
>like I'm inside your heads, hearing a stream of verbalized consciousness.
> Distance and silence disappear. 

Some say that telecommunication undermines real world sense of place,
because it abolishes distance. I.e. when everyone has instant access to
everywhere, there is no longer any such thing as distinct places. I'm not
sure I agree with that entirely, though.

>Unless you speak of the environment you are
>in, and help me invoke an image of it, there is only darkness, too. We could
>be in a closet with the door closed.  

That is very much how I am experiencing my first attempts at internet
communication! I have a vague image of disembodied selves hovering in a dark
void. I don't mean that to sound too negative; it's just that there is no
context or backdrop for the communication. Voices come out of the dark. 

>The country lane image says more about the quality and frequency of discourse
>on this particular channel. Measured, respectful, sometimes rambling, but
>never strident, a hubub of competing voices trying to be heard above the
>rest.

When I asked about sense of place in Cyberspace, I didn't mean it in the
sense of cyberplaces being equated with real world places in all respects. I
was wondering whether different locations on the internet each have their
own particular 'feel'. Perhaps that 'feel' can sometimes be described
metaphorically in terms of real world places, but the correspondence
established by metaphors is never complete. Your description of Psybernet
says to me that Psybernet has a sense of place, which in some (but obviously
not all) respects resembles a country lane. Maybe I'm hoping that this type
of metaphor will help me to fill in the dark background of cyberspace with
something more colorful.

I recently stumbled across a newsgroup called alt.culture.upstate-new-york.
Upstate New York is where I grew up, so I subscribed and have been enjoying
it immensely. Upstate New York has a very strong sense of place for me, and
reading the newsgroup helps put me in touch with it. Threads filled with the
distinctive place names of that region and passionate discussions about
"which is your favorite cider mill" are very evocative for me. That
newsgroup has a strong sense of place, derived from the real world place
that the newsgroup is dedicated to.

------------------------------------------------
Herb Schroeder (hschr@nwu.edu)
Evanston, Illinois
USA
------------------------------------------------





From hoon@apk.net Mon Nov 20 13:54:08 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Sense of place
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 1995 19:54:08 -0500


>Ron wrote:
>
>Some say that telecommunication undermines real world sense of place,
>because it abolishes distance. I.e. when everyone has instant access to
>everywhere, there is no longer any such thing as distinct places. I'm not
>sure I agree with that entirely, though.
>
Place? and space? You physically go to a place; and you [???] a space.

Cyperplace? Doesn't ring true to my ears.

>>Unless you speak of the environment you are
>>in, and help me invoke an image of it, there is only darkness, too. We could
>>be in a closet with the door closed.

How is it we can talk about a place in the first place? I've never been to
New Zealand yet Walter's very minimal communication has represented
something of it to me.

And I think of a place I lived in: Vermont. Somehow the places are moving
through the cyberspaces...as metaphor, description, re-representation,
feel...

-snip-

>established by metaphors is never complete. Your description of Psybernet
>says to me that Psybernet has a sense of place, which in some (but obviously
>not all) respects resembles a country lane. Maybe I'm hoping that this type
>of metaphor will help me to fill in the dark background of cyberspace with
>something more colorful.

For me, I drag this conversation into a *setting* rather than a place. It
might be sitting around a tree, or in a cafe, or on the ledges at Snake
Mountain.

-snip-

>it immensely. Upstate New York has a very strong sense of place for me, and
>reading the newsgroup helps put me in touch with it. Threads filled with the
>distinctive place names of that region and passionate discussions about
>"which is your favorite cider mill" are very evocative for me. That

Ahh..the Adirondacks!

The RL place -for me while typing this- is a computer in a living room with
papers and books and compact discs and floppies strewn about. A partially
read newspaper is crumpled on the chair next to me. A bright light to my
left. The TV is on for Mathew is home now; I smell chili being reheated,
and sweet residue of chocolate in my mouth. It's the weekend and I feel the
little yet glorious freedoms of not having gone to work for an entire day.
It's warm inside. Messy; cozy. An insipid soundtrack wells up from the TV.
I look to the computer screen and as words tumble out of my mind they
unfurl until my <whatever> types   .

Best and better to all, Stephen

===================================================
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/gateway.html
===================================================

If you have a living force and you're not using it,
nature kicks you back. The blood boils just like
you put it in the pot.
-Louise Nevelson






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Tue Nov 21 17:22:57 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Sense of place
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 17:22:57 +1300 (NZDT)


My sense of place is all over the place,  its comfortable in a teachers
computer lab,  seldom used more cozy,  less people +  there is more
freedom-you can download games and programs with out the the system
throwing this is not alowed hernia-restrictions don't go down well in my
environment-they restricted the Internet-that annoyed me,  but what annoys
me more is that they have pass words for staff and such-ugh,  but if you do
download something beware you could be in the Lions den if you get caught
playing games!Sometimes I emerge myselfd in Crowded labs full of stressed
people or at otrhers I burn the early hours of the morning with a friend on
by myself.I would like a computere & a connection of my own but I cannot
reewally afford it.Kinda like you were saying Stephen-about the exclusivity
of companies only catering for those with the money and access-not careing
for the poor masses-but rather catering for disires and fantasies-not for
the betterment of the world.Thats really bad but somehow there is something
that lurks inside me and would like to revele in unrecogniseable bliss in
the fantasys and disires of the technology but here I'm brought down to
earth and I see that the restriction with the Internet at Uni is bad and is
similar to what is happening to the have-nots.

Hey Miles your Blur Rabbit Computer soundz good I might try and ferret it
out sometime-would I be invadeing your space?
Stephen the idea about discovering the woman inside you is interesting,
maybe I'm more in touch with the goddess through the net?
I really liked your analogy about the Siren-The Siren's song
>calls many but few are chosen. This tortured me for quite some time as a
>young man...and I didn't have even the slightest insight, as you do, that
>my self-preservation mattered at all! You're ahead of the curve I'd
>suggest.
I find crushes & infatuations are far worse when you dont actually really
know the person-when I wqas a high school I had some pretty bad ones-I
dunno I'm kinda more isolated from Calire now-But I do keep in contact & we
will go at for dinner & a movie sometime.I dont think or feel that I have
felt the Sirens pull to the whole effect yet though...

>PS even though I live in New Zealand, and even though I knew what Tama
>means, it just so happens that I envisged Tama as a girl the very first
>time she posted something, not that I want to insult the man, and in
>fact partially because I think thats a compliment to be a woman in
>words, like. So sue me.

Hey thats cool wouldint dream of sueing you!! Thats really interesting that
you too perceived my net presence as female.I would like to see your Muroa
animation sometime-in RL though.
Ha I'm trying to find something to do at the moment-I have no job-although
I will get one fruit picking-so I'm indulgeing in passively lieing bed-not
too healthy-so I'm gonna try and make a movie-this time its gonna be a bit
of a spoof on the power rangers & I'm gonna use these Japanese girls-you
see wew have one-Yoko staying at our house and she hads lots of friends...

Oh well I better catch a bus home-Bye all


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Tue Nov 21 18:52:59 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Sense of place
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 17:52:59 +1200 (NZT)



how can we talk of place

in cyberspace?

is it a waste of bandwidth
or a massive disequilibrium developed by passive
interaction intermissive discourse and a sense of belonging?






From miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz Tue Nov 21 19:08:51 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Sense of place
From: Miles Thompson <miles@rabbit.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 18:08:51 +1200 (NZT)



> The RL place -for me while typing this- is a computer in a living room with
> papers and books and compact discs and floppies strewn about. A partially
> read newspaper is crumpled on the chair next to me. A bright light to my
> left. The TV is on for Mathew is home now; I smell chili being reheated,
> and sweet residue of chocolate in my mouth. It's the weekend and I feel the
> little yet glorious freedoms of not having gone to work for an entire day.
> It's warm inside. Messy; cozy. An insipid soundtrack wells up from the TV.
> I look to the computer screen and as words tumble out of my mind they
> unfurl until my <whatever> types   .
> 
> Best and better to all, Stephen

The real life place for me is the computer lab at the maths department 
which once felt like home, like a *place* where I belonged and then all 
of a sudden, I finished. And I got my shit and I left my desk, and those 
few people left doing work didn't talk to me and all the rest of the 
people weren't here so it feels alien, and the *place* that makes me feel 
at home is *pysberspace*. There is noone here right now, because its 
10:00 or something, though in times before that would not mean that there 
was noone here, but anyway, despite the fact that there is no-one here, I 
get the distinct feeling that in a way, a little, perhaps, I should 
leave - a feeling incidentally that I don't get in this particular place 
where I am right now, which is a little tiny window up at the top corner 
of a great big computer screen which seems to think its called 
"Pierre-Simon" and which in fact is my favourite computer screen when I 
log on in the Math department to my computer place "rabbit.otago.ac.nz" 
which is a lovely little computer, somewhat ageing now, but an SGI and 
the sort of computer that I always wanted at home, because SGI's 
specialise in computer graphics. On the other hand, I think that this 
particular message is being stored on "omigod" which is another computer 
on the other side of the room, down in computer science, but one I don't 
like because it is ugly and full. Unlike rabbit which is blue and cool 
and always has heaps of *space* for me to put all my shit. Incidentally, 
I did an animation of muroroa being blown up on rabbit, as long as we are 
on the subject, its a computer animation and has *almost* nothing to do 
with this group but, hey, I'm here, and so are you all. Or most of you 
anyway, I feel. So I could put it up into that *place* we call psybernet 
if you like. It would be uuencoded and a quicktime movie and really big, 
but if you want and if Walter doesn't gainsay then I will, OK?
But you'll have to forgive me I'm rambling like a mad thing. Getting a 
computer keyboard hand massage, and since I just came up here after my 
first (only?) conference cocktail evening where the drinks were free - 
just down below the maths building through the rain and past the big old 
white house where rabbit sits quietly processing these words - *so*
(arrghhhhhhhhh!!! gasp for breath)
*so* I am probably not making a lot of sense. I hope that y'all don't 
mind. 
Miles
PS even though I live in New Zealand, and even though I knew what Tama 
means, it just so happens that I envisged Tama as a girl the very first 
time she posted something, not that I want to insult the man, and in 
fact partially because I think thats a compliment to be a woman in 
words, like. So sue me.







From ctpost@aol.com Sat Nov 25 07:45:08 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Sense of place
From: ctpost@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 13:45:08 -0500


Hi (after a long silence) all,

I am grabbing some time during my daily train-ride to NY to catch up on
psybernet, and I write to say that I found the thread on sense of place
wonderfully readable:

>>>There is noone here right now, because its 10:00 or something...I just
came up here after my first (only?) conference cocktail evening where the
drinks were free - just down below the maths building through the rain and
past the big old white house where rabbit sits quietly processing these
words... 

My sense of place is all over the place,  its comfortable in a teachers
computer lab,  seldom used more cozy,  less people... Sometimes I emerge
myselfd in Crowded labs full of stressed people or at otrhers I burn the
early hours of the morning with a friend on by myself....Oh well I better
catch a bus home-Bye all

The RL place -for me while typing this- is a computer in a living room with
papers and books and compact discs and floppies strewn about...An insipid
soundtrack wells up from the TV. I look to the computer screen and as words
tumble out of my mind they unfurl until my <whatever> types. Best and better
to all, Stephen. 

Threads filled with the distinctive place names of that region and passionate
discussions about "which is your favorite cider mill" are very evocative for
me. That newsgroup has a strong sense of place, derived from the real world
place that the newsgroup is dedicated to.<<<

I look up from my laptop and see the backs of heads of fellow passengers,
some reading newspapers and books, others talking, heads nodding, hands
gesturing. A toddler with a woman in tow hurries up and down the aisle, up
and down. Above, winter coats and scarves hang from the luggage racks. Two
posters by the doors: "Metro-North Special Holiday Service and Timetables"
and "Why SBLI?" an ad for insurance showing a young family, the father in a
police officer's uniform. Outside the windows, there is bright sunshine;
trees and houses glide by. Bare limbs and branches, a few still with yellow
and orange leaves unfallen. Inside: the hubbub of voices, a baby squealing,
the white noise of air rushing in the ventilation system, the rumble of the
train.

I sense that there is a real difference among us on this subject. Miles'
awareness of the computers operating in response to his keyboard entry struck
me. And I remember something of a similar (though less informed) awareness
when I was using the university computer systems during a sabbatical year at
CMU years ago. Tama's lack of a personal system and connecting in various
locations, each with its own ambience and *rules*, describes a more tenuous
and perilous connection to cyberspace. (I didn't get the part about hernias,
but that sounds perilous to me.) Stephen's domestic scene, with cooking and
childcare and familiar clutter, includes his awareness of the mental
processes that link everything together into a flow of words on screen. Also
interesting is Herb(who brought this up)'s newsgroup, which evokes a New York
state of mind for him (but probably not for the rest of us) because of its
reference to actual familiar places. 

I ramble. And bring this to a stop, as we approach the bridge that takes this
train from the Bronx into Manhattan. Not sure what I learned from all this.
But it's been fun.

thx,
Ron




From hoon@apk.net Tue Nov 28 02:46:11 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: grab this!
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 08:46:11 -0500


Greetings! I hope everybody *here* (whatever that means in cyberspace ?-)
is doing well these days.

Affairs in Psyber-L have slowed down recently, somewhat dramatically. If I
were to put my ND thinking cap on; let me do that now... ....okay, I would
speculate that this is because the small group of core posters have not
grabbed onto any threads tenaciously recently.

Personally, this is not my preference. As an alternative to the heady or
hearty *action* in Psyber-L I have two other groups I'm involved in: the
wild and wooly ND and the new age-ee Wisdom at Work. (Oddly and aptly
Psyber-L feels to me to be right in the middle of the spectrum between the
collisions of thinking and feeling in ND and the 'too good to be true'
consensus of feeling and intuition in Wisdom at Work.) Folks without any
experience in any of those other *heres*, take my word for it!

I will post two further observations as separate threads hoping they will
have a chance of being grabbed tenaciously...or boo hoo :-(



Stephen=============http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html================

If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him
is, "God is crying."  And if he asks why God is crying, another cute
thing to tell him is, "Probably because of something you did."

>>Jack Handy (who else)






From hoon@apk.net Tue Nov 28 02:47:01 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: mind filling time
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 08:47:01 -0500


Several observations.

[uno] I, Mr.Steve the HooN in Cleveland, only have so much time to
tele-compute so I fill it up one way or the other. Since running my mouth
off (now there's a metaphor that doesn't translate literally in the cyber
medium,) is absolutely one of my favorite things to do, this means that I
will figure out a (my) response to a post in a listserv discussion group
one way or the other.

IOW, my propensity toward expressing my thoughts is used to fill up the
time I have on the computer. Thus, I enjoy -of all the aspects of the
internet- the email discussion groups.

It's so easy! In my current RL mode it is so difficult to track down a
certain sympatico kind of friend, schedule the time, sit down in hopes we
are still both in the mood, and have a mindful and leaping kind of
dialogue.

Thus my mind fills my computer time.

Stephen=============http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html================

"One of the advantages of being disorderly
is that one is constantly making exciting
discoveries."

>>  A. A. Milne






From hoon@apk.net Tue Nov 28 02:48:17 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: shoe-horning
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 08:48:17 -0500


[dos] This is my favorite space, Psyber-L that is. It feels different but I
don't have the words yet to describe it, although I've tried in the past.
Of course not having words to describe something is a very powerful
conundrum. In Psyber-L the sense of time is different and it allows us to
hold this conundrum in some way.

Contrast this place to ND where there is this intense impetus behind the
idea of accomplishing something and also pushing catagories and metaphors
into this space on an "as if" basis.

This "as if" is loaded up, especially for Jungians, with projections. This
is a way of saying that our ability to make a catagory fit, sometimes to
shoe-horn it, is about much more than what the catagory means or
represents.

It is about why we feel we must use it, our intentions, and what psychic
energy compells us to try to squeeze reality through the hole of the
catagory that really interests me. And, like Walter, I wonder what words
mean when they get used *here*. What they loose and what they gain.
Oh...and why?















Stephen=============http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html================

"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress,
     but I repeat myself."

                                Mark Twain






From hoon@apk.net Tue Nov 28 02:48:51 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: filling in blanks, again
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 08:48:51 -0500


I posted this to ND yesterday and wondered how this group might respond to
the same questions. (Some we have played with here previously.)
***
This observer sits back in Cleveland, Ohio and observes the dynamics of
NET_DYNAMICS unfold before his eyes. And wonders about personal choice and
identity.

Do we have the choice to depersonalize both ourselves and others in this
medium and thus play around with our identity, roles, and even ethics?

Do we not fill in the blanks with projections?

Do we then, in turn, manufacture scenarios and dramatize others' roles in
those (at least) partially made-up scenarios and then fulfill the prophecy
inherent in this kind of rich projection?

Could one also create an "evil twin" to play around with here, knowing that
consequences to our behavior we expect in RL literally cannot 'touch' us
here?

These are in part rhetorical questions. I, for one, decided about halfway,
or 3 months, into my venture in discussion-listLand that it felt very naive
to take anything at face value here where the bottom line is: that I didn't
know with whom I was really dealing. Having chosen to personalize less here
there is a sense of being freed up to almost actively imagine how it is I
will present myself.
-snip-
***

Stephen=============http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html================

"It is easier to fight for one's principles than
 to live up to them."

>>  Alfred Adler (1870-1937)






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Nov 28 15:06:18 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: shoe-horning
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 02:06:18 GMT


Hoon,  

I appreciate your perseverance in keeping a semblance of life in
this "place".


> [dos] This is my favorite space, Psyber-L that is. 

Mine too.  I have just unsubbed from Future Culture with 2000
unread messages!  I have not had time to go fully into Net Dyn,
due to this move to a more physically active life style.  It is
doing me good -- but I feel as if I am neglecting something here
and then miss it!  .  

>  It feels different but I
> don't have the words yet to describe it, although I've tried in the past.
> Of course not having words to describe something is a very powerful
> conundrum. In Psyber-L the sense of time is different and it allows us to
> hold this conundrum in some way.

Yes.  I could easily promote this list more -- in ND   ,
alt.psychology.jung and on the NEW list -- but I fear to loose
the country lane -- but I would like to know what others think.
maybe just one of those places?  

> Contrast this place to ND where there is this intense impetus behind the
> idea of accomplishing something and also pushing catagories and metaphors
> into this space on an "as if" basis.
> 
> This "as if" is loaded up, especially for Jungians, with projections. This
> is a way of saying that our ability to make a catagory fit, sometimes to
> shoe-horn it, is about much more than what the catagory means or
> represents.

Interesting concept -- making a metaphor fit.  

> It is about why we feel we must use it, our intentions, and what psychic
> energy compells us to try to squeeze reality through the hole of the
> catagory that really interests me. And, like Walter, I wonder what words
> mean when they get used *here*. What they loose and what they gain.
> Oh...and why?

There is no space, no here, etc. so all our descriptions are "as
if" -- as if there is a net.  Words do this don't they, they take
very simple things and attach complex meanings of an abstract
nature to them -- I believe therapy has its roots in "sit" or
"chair" -- and look at how I just used "roots".  

Perhaps off topic, but on the theme of reflecting on this
Psybernet Conference . . .  I met with a Cathy Toscan last night.
She is a Californian freelance radio reporter (for Danish Radio)
with an interest in the evolutionary aspects of networking
computers.  I found it useful to reflect on the Psybernet
project, about which she will speak on Danish Radio!  Welcome to
the Danish participants -- if any have arrived as yet.  

The most stimulating challenge from her was to get Psybernet
Small Groups going and to facilitate those and charge a fee.  She
was familiar with the Information Wants to be Free ethic, but
also saw the value of all the things that good facilitation would
offer -- and the huge change in a group that was closed and
confidential and with a focus.  

I had a sense that she saw my reluctance and sense of defeat on
this -- and that my feelings caused the very lack of enthusiasm
that bounds my way on this subject.  I believe in it, but find it
very hard to even initiate it properly -- not just time.  I think
selecting people for groups would be good too -- offering a
service that does a little matchmaking in cyberspace for
cyberspace!  

Talking to Cathy I could see how far we have come with knowledge
about all this and also how unique the focus here is.  

So, I know I am slow, but the Psybernet plans are still alive --
a talk in RL about Psybernet, a tape, and the promotion of
Psybernet Small Groups.  The New Zealand silly season will get me
so expect more in February.  In the meantime I'd love suggestions
and feedback and shows of interest.  

Note that I am not thinking so much of the current Psybernet
Conference participants as members of these groups, though I do
not exclude it.   I have some Psyberspace friends here and there
is the difficulty of mixing friendship with professional work.
One possibility is a training group for doing this work.  The
other groups I am thinking of are the ones I have been thinking
of for ages -- a dream group and a H&N group -- (here and Now) 

Am I squeezing the psyber foot into a shoe it wont fit -- that is
my fear -- just got to give it a go eh!


Walter 




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From hoon@apk.net Wed Nov 29 07:20:30 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: implementation
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 13:20:30 -0500


>The most stimulating challenge from her was to get Psybernet
>Small Groups going and to facilitate those and charge a fee.  She
>was familiar with the Information Wants to be Free ethic, but
>also saw the value of all the things that good facilitation would
>offer -- and the huge change in a group that was closed and
>confidential and with a focus.

-snip-
>
>Talking to Cathy I could see how far we have come with knowledge
>about all this and also how unique the focus here is.

-snip-
>
>Note that I am not thinking so much of the current Psybernet
>Conference participants as members of these groups, though I do
>not exclude it.   I have some Psyberspace friends here and there
>is the difficulty of mixing friendship with professional work.
>One possibility is a training group for doing this work.  The
>other groups I am thinking of are the ones I have been thinking
>of for ages -- a dream group and a H&N group -- (here and Now)
>
>Am I squeezing the psyber foot into a shoe it wont fit -- that is
>my fear -- just got to give it a go eh!
>
>
>Walter

As I said to Matt in ND: 'go for it'. Or, as a boss of mine once said in
underscoring an impossible command:

"Just do it!"

Really. You'll plan your implementation and contact people and begin, right?

Meanwhile, over *here* or not *here* we'll do our open-ended and free
Psyber-L list thing.

At least, try our best. As we've been doing.

I wonder why it is that the prospect of implementation seems so formidible
besides all the good reasons you've already given? Something about how this
medium just sucks one in with RL being sort of the little gasp of sky
coming through the opening to the hole in the ground?

(I think of Jung's BIG childhood dream.)


Best and better to you all, Stephen



Woody Allen
     "Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons."






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Nov 30 00:31:27 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: filling in blanks, again
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 11:31:27 GMT

Stephen,

> Do we have the choice to depersonalize both ourselves and others in this
> medium and thus play around with our identity, roles, and even ethics?

Surprisingly my answer is no.  One, if we use aliases etc that
just means we learn _more_ about ourselves -- and are showing our
cyberspace connections _that_ aspect, one that those left at home
do not see.  And secondly, we might try, but we cant . . .
authenticity and inauthenticity shines through in our words.
Especially in a Conference like this where there is all the RL
and private mail corroboration -- but that is always there. 

We do not have a choice --we are who we are.

> Do we not fill in the blanks with projections?

Yes.

> Do we then, in turn, manufacture scenarios and dramatize others' roles in
> those (at least) partially made-up scenarios and then fulfill the prophecy
> inherent in this kind of rich projection?

Or not.  Projections or transferences can be worked through here
as in RL.

> Could one also create an "evil twin" to play around with here, knowing that
> consequences to our behavior we expect in RL literally cannot 'touch' us
> here?

Imp not sure what you mean by evil twin -- you mean log in as
someone else as well?  Scary thought -- you might be Tama!!! --
but I KNOW you are not -- the virtual authenticity of both of you
shines through.  Not always though I know -- we experimented with
that in the ALTERWORLD.

> These are in part rhetorical questions. I, for one, decided about halfway,
> or 3 months, into my venture in discussion-listLand that it felt very naive
> to take anything at face value here where the bottom line is: that I didn't
> know with whom I was really dealing. 

Argg . . .  what is real?  I think you have some sense of me and
I don't think it is naive to trust that.  (& vice versa) 

> Having chosen to personalise less here
> there is a sense of being freed up to almost actively imagine how it is I
> will present myself.

Yes, but just as we choose to present differently at home and at
work.  

I think we are all multiples with many alters -- some more hidden
than others.  It is liberating to get them out in the open, to
discover them, but I don't think we choose them.

Walter






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Nov 30 00:31:35 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: implementation
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 11:31:35 GMT

Steve,

> "Just do it!"

Yep.

> Really. You'll plan your implementation and contact people and begin, right?

Yes.

> Meanwhile, over *here* or not *here* we'll do our open-ended and free
> Psyber-L list thing.

Yes -- I have just been reading Wired on Media Lab -- the
research institute set up by Nicholas Negroponte.  I am far from
having an inflated idea at the moment of Psybernet but it does
have the two aspects:  as set out on the welcome page on the WWW:

1.    An experiential learning and research project. 

2.    Professionally facilitated psychological work on the
       Internet. 

It really makes sense to work at those two things as almost
separate entities.  This list belongs to the first project.
There is much to be done.  


> At least, try our best. As we've been doing.

We do!

> I wonder why it is that the prospect of implementation seems so formidible
> besides all the good reasons you've already given? Something about how this
> medium just sucks one in with RL being sort of the little gasp of sky
> coming through the opening to the hole in the ground?

Yes that is a big part of it -- I am still sorting out software
hassles too -- and I am really enjoying my day job!  I think RL
has been looming large for me lately, my sports and also my RL
work is doing well -- will be doing some group work that I have
had brewing for a while.

Our summer holiday is coming and I think I will face cyberspace
with a new lease upon my return -- I usually do.

>      "Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons."

Good one!  There is another reason too in psychotherapy -- it is
the factor that makes focussing on the other person hour after
our an equal proposition -- one the client can approach as a
guilt free ride with no further obligations.  A poorly set fee in
psychotherapy is a problem for the client in that it inevitably
leads to them wanting to compensate in other ways -- bad news for
working through the transference.  

All this would apply in cyberspace as well.  

It does not apply here of course, in a place like this we work
towards some mutuality in the exchanges . . .  and that is
happening, though I suspect you want more Stephen, and fait
enough too!

Warm wishes,

Walter.






_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Thu Nov 30 00:31:38 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: Alchemy
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 11:31:38 GMT

Stephen,

Back tracking to:

On Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:20:08 -0500, Stephen Calhoun
<hoon@apk.net> wrote:

> Another way of putting it: how much of the tension of our
> relationships in this space sticks to us when we have the computer turned
> off?
> 
> My experience so far is: not very much if any. I can't so far get a hold of
> this container...I see the crucible but I don't sense the container. 

I find it similar to a fortnightly f2f peer group I am in -- I
have it in the back of my psyche like a haven -- a point of
reference -- I often think Oh I must write about this in
Psybernet -- and then don't (sadly sometimes).  I am curious how
a container is different from the crucible.  Is the crucible a
more shallow dish?  I seem to equate all the images -- and think
of them all as a "Sacred Circle" -- and that to me covers temenos
as well . . . 

>OTOH,
> the sense of others here doesn't disappear when the computer is off. I
> guess I'm struggling with the *transference* without which there cannot be
> a temenos.

How do you relate transference and temenos?  Do you mean by
transference what I mean?  The projection of feelings and images
from one person (place and time) onto another?  In that case I am
always doing it here . . . and your reading of Tama as a woman
was a good example -- I had seen you as a single young man in his
20's -- and that is not right either I guess!  

> (I'm attempting to pursue this point in N_D. Thankfully, here we can better
> talk about such things imaginatively. Different traces for different
> spaces.)

How did you get on there with that?  I have not read it for weeks
-- but might do a big catch up one day.

> "Our knowledge is a little island in a great ocean of non-knowledge."

Leaving plenty of room for our imagination . . .

Warm wishes,

Walter.




_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From hoon@apk.net Fri Dec 01 07:10:24 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: filling in blanks, again
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:10:24 -0500


>Stephen,
>
>> Do we have the choice to depersonalize both ourselves and others in this
>> medium and thus play around with our identity, roles, and even ethics?
>
>Surprisingly my answer is no.
-snip-
>authenticity and inauthenticity shines through in our words.
>We do not have a choice --we are who we are.

I believe this too but I don't count on it. It's an age-old problem in both
philosophy, psychology and religion. Meanwhile, I have my own
discrimination to rely upon in trying to figure out what rings true...in
you!

Still, the text medium does pare away both cues that imbue (? saturate) and
cues that fool.

-snip-

>> Could one also create an "evil twin" to play around with here, knowing that
>> consequences to our behavior we expect in RL literally cannot 'touch' us
>> here?
>
>Imp not sure what you mean by evil twin -- you mean log in as
>someone else as well?  Scary thought -- you might be Tama!!! --
>but I KNOW you are not -- the virtual authenticity of both of you
>shines through.  Not always though I know -- we experimented with
>that in the ALTERWORLD.

Sounds like an interesting experiment. I have a seconmd email account and I
could enter a listserv from there and from here and create my own flame war
between my selves...

>
>> These are in part rhetorical questions. I, for one, decided about halfway,
>> or 3 months, into my venture in discussion-listLand that it felt very naive
>> to take anything at face value here where the bottom line is: that I didn't
>> know with whom I was really dealing.
>
>Argg . . .  what is real?  I think you have some sense of me and
>I don't think it is naive to trust that.  (& vice versa)

Yes. What is at risk, really? example: I could disappear, an easier option
here than in my RL social circumstance.

When I came to Psyber-L I found out quickly, especially with the prelim of
having visited the psybernet web page, that there was something very
sympatico going on. It gibed with my desire too: to turn on the computer,
type a bit, and send out a thought important to me, damn, to my soul and my
spirit, and see what happened.

This is a good place to send out such thoughts. Thus I serve my Self. I
can't emphasize enough that it's being easier here is the biggest turn on
for me; in fact, it helps me turn *me* on literally.

>
>> Having chosen to personalise less here
>> there is a sense of being freed up to almost actively imagine how it is I
>> will present myself.
>
>Yes, but just as we choose to present differently at home and at
>work.
>
>I think we are all multiples with many alters -- some more hidden
>than others.  It is liberating to get them out in the open, to
>discover them, but I don't think we choose them.
>

Agreed. Somehow 'choosing' for me also isn't the right verb either. Yet,
there is a property of the cast of characters, which, when the cast is
taken as a whole, allows for one to gravitate toward a specific 'becoming'
situated, or centered by one of those alters.

This, oddly, is something I learned from meditation. It's almost a
witnessing of the truly fluid bubbling nature of identity. You can observe
the gravitity of parts of our personality and even see how some are like
water and oil.

This all comes online so I guess we're on topic. <Bg>




====================================================================

     "To give up pretensions is as blessed a relief as to get them
     ratified."

                                William James






From hoon@apk.net Fri Dec 01 07:15:44 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: shoe-horning
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:15:44 -0500


>Hoon,
>
>I appreciate your perseverance in keeping a semblance of life in
>this "place".

Psyber-L isn't 'driven' which I think suits me especially. Yet, if you post
ideas/imaginings that interest its other denizens one can expect a
thoughtful response. I appreciate everybody's efforts.
>
>
>> [dos] This is my favorite space, Psyber-L that is.
>
>Mine too.  I have just unsubbed from Future Culture with 2000
>unread messages!  I have not had time to go fully into Net Dyn,
>due to this move to a more physically active life style.  It is
>doing me good -- but I feel as if I am neglecting something here
>and then miss it!  .

N_D is evolving nicely. A recent rant there concerned one participant's
expectation that the group address some of the practical problems of
mailing lists. A small sub-group is about to initiate some concrete
research projects and several others have taken similar initiatives
already. Finally there is the ongoing free flow of reflection and response.


It's over-the-top like Future Culture is in terms of noise-to-signal.
Still, the volume is enough that I have to quickly skim and sort. Whereas,
the volume of Psyber-L remains such that I read carefully every post. This
is a qualitative difference and seems to result in a prospect of greater
intimacy in Psyber-L.
>
>>  It feels different but I
>> don't have the words yet to describe it, although I've tried in the past.
>> Of course not having words to describe something is a very powerful
>> conundrum. In Psyber-L the sense of time is different and it allows us to
>> hold this conundrum in some way.
>
>Yes.  I could easily promote this list more -- in ND   ,
>alt.psychology.jung and on the NEW list -- but I fear to loose
>the country lane -- but I would like to know what others think.
>maybe just one of those places?

I weigh in on the side of letting people find there way here without any
further promotion. I found this place soon after getting my inet connection
this way:

search engine search on "Jung"->Psybernet home page->Psyber-L solicitation
on that page->subscribe->HERE! Interestingly, Psyber-L was the first list I
subscribed to, ever.

>> Contrast this place to ND where there is this intense impetus behind the
>> idea of accomplishing something and also pushing catagories and metaphors
>> into this space on an "as if" basis.
>>
>> This "as if" is loaded up, especially for Jungians, with projections. This
>> is a way of saying that our ability to make a catagory fit, sometimes to
>> shoe-horn it, is about much more than what the catagory means or
>> represents.
>
>Interesting concept -- making a metaphor fit.

Seems to me that metaphor as a cognitive concept is mostly interesting
exactly because we make them fit and because this process has much to do
with the unique associations in each person's neural network, so-to-speak.
Same can be said about language in general...almost every word being a
metaphor of some sort if it invokes a process of association.

>
>> It is about why we feel we must use it, our intentions, and what psychic
>> energy compells us to try to squeeze reality through the hole of the
>> catagory that really interests me. And, like Walter, I wonder what words
>> mean when they get used *here*. What they loose and what they gain.
>> Oh...and why?
>
>There is no space, no here, etc. so all our descriptions are "as
>if" -- as if there is a net.  Words do this don't they, they take
>very simple things and attach complex meanings of an abstract
>nature to them -- I believe therapy has its roots in "sit" or
>"chair" -- and look at how I just used "roots".

Wonderful! "space" meaning "here" meaning...(my associations then,)
openness, wide-ness, even wide-nesses, (more freely now,) wilderness,
wild-ness, here-ness, hearing, hear and now...now-ing->knowing and
(always,) not knowing(?)

Yikes. Stephen


===

"What we commonly call man, the eating, drinking, planting, counting man,
does not, as we know him, represent himself but misrepresents himself. Him
we do not respect, but the soul, whose organ he is, would he let it appear
through his actions, would make our knees bend. When it breathes through his
intellect, it is genius; when it breathes through his will, it is virtue;
when it flows through his affections, it is love." - Emerson






From hoon@apk.net Fri Dec 01 07:16:49 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: implementation
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:16:49 -0500


-snip-

>> Psyber-L list thing.
>
>Yes -- I have just been reading Wired on Media Lab -- the
>research institute set up by Nicholas Negroponte.  I am far from
>having an inflated idea at the moment of Psybernet but it does

My favorite part is usually when the idea gets a little/lotta 'air' in it. <g>

>have the two aspects:  as set out on the welcome page on the WWW:
>
>1.    An experiential learning and research project.
>
>2.    Professionally facilitated psychological work on the
>       Internet.
>
>It really makes sense to work at those two things as almost
>separate entities.  This list belongs to the first project.
>There is much to be done.

I would think that there are varieties of softly structured projects that
could be done through the list. One idea might be to begin a quasi-active
imagination using the group. I wondered about this months ago after joining
Psyber-L when we discussed the *Goddess*. Could she be contacted using the
list/group?

In RL there is a fine line between the fantasy role playing and the active
imagination which proceeds down the cellar stairs; so, at the time, I
couldn't think of a way to deal with what could be a powerful process for
some.

It's a bit of a problem only if you take these kinds of tools seriously!
OTOH, in the world of MOOs and MUDs, of which I have zero experience, there
is no doubt lots of psychic digging around without the normal prophylactic.

Like how it goes most of the time.

Stephen

================================================================

To stay ahead, you must have your next idea waiting in the wings.
    -- Rosabeth Moss Kanter






From hoon@apk.net Fri Dec 01 07:18:47 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Alchemy
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:18:47 -0500


>Stephen,
>
>Back tracking to:
>
>On Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:20:08 -0500, Stephen Calhoun
><hoon@apk.net> wrote:
>
>> Another way of putting it: how much of the tension of our
>> relationships in this space sticks to us when we have the computer turned
>> off?
>>
>> My experience so far is: not very much if any. I can't so far get a hold of
>> this container...I see the crucible but I don't sense the container.
>
>I find it similar to a fortnightly f2f peer group I am in -- I
>have it in the back of my psyche like a haven -- a point of
>reference -- I often think Oh I must write about this in
>Psybernet -- and then don't (sadly sometimes).  I am curious how
>a container is different from the crucible.  Is the crucible a
>more shallow dish?  I seem to equate all the images -- and think
>of them all as a "Sacred Circle" -- and that to me covers temenos
>as well . . .

CRUCIBLE:::alchemical association:::used for melting and calcining
materials at high tempertaures; also the bottom of an ore furnace where
molten material collects:::3rd entry in American Heritage Dictionary is
simpler: A severe test or trial:::from ME crucibulum: lamp kept burning in
front of the crucifix...the image of a shallow bowl containing animal fat?

Crux is Latin for cross. The crux ("a crucial or vital moment,") of a
problem may be the crucible (in the crucible?) which is to say: the vital
moment may be a test.

The meaning for me is: I see the vital moment and possible tests but I
don't see the container; or what will hold the or those moments. One might
simplify and sense structure versus process, then, structure containing
process.
>
>>OTOH,
>> the sense of others here doesn't disappear when the computer is off. I
>> guess I'm struggling with the *transference* without which there cannot be
>> a temenos.
>
>How do you relate transference and temenos?  Do you mean by
>transference what I mean?  The projection of feelings and images
>from one person (place and time) onto another?  In that case I am
>always doing it here . . . and your reading of Tama as a woman
>was a good example -- I had seen you as a single young man in his
>20's -- and that is not right either I guess!

Yes, we mean it the same way with some differences. The temenos seems to me
to regard the field that encapsulates the energetic 'fields' of projection,
and re-projection. For example, we might struggle to hold the tension
caused by our own dream work and secure a container to hold in the energy
caused by our working with images and their personification.

Extended to relational modes and the transference there, (and although I am
not a therapist it seems clear that the therapeutic relationship
exemplifies this,) the temenos is the 'safe' place within which the
transference may take place. BTW, it seems anytime somebody shares a deeply
held thought with another person, some kind of transference is probably
happening in the sense that to do so requires one to trust an 'other' (or
one to naively assume a stranger is worth trusting which has a cheap, yet
viable element of the transference too.)

My own thinking unties the transference from catagorical imperatives. It
can be a personification of *this* person with the qualities of the imago
of a parental figure etc. But, I think too that the transference may
represent a continuum of projective processes which include extentions of
consensual intention, which is to say, especially in groups, that it may be
negotiated.

(Hey, maybe we don't think about it the same way at all!)

I've been wrestling with the projection of identity and personality and
psyche in this medium and I still don't feel many of my questions have the
beginnings of an answer, not even much to latch onto.

One thought that does seem clear is that: a tremendous amount of creative
energy is being poured into the internet; a tremendous amount of desire; a
tremendous amount of talking about one's self on this "as if" basis,

as if what?

as if we ARE all connected
as if we ARE indelibly creative
as if we ARE fundamentally spiritual
as if we ARE wishing to be heard
as if we ARE trying to see *soul* beyond the "post-modern"

Okay, I admit it...this is what I observe mostly about me. ;-)

>
>> (I'm attempting to pursue this point in N_D. Thankfully, here we can better
>> talk about such things imaginatively. Different traces for different
>> spaces.)
>
>How did you get on there with that?  I have not read it for weeks
>-- but might do a big catch up one day.

Walter, they post anything anybody sends 'em!

>
>> "Our knowledge is a little island in a great ocean of non-knowledge."
>
>Leaving plenty of room for our imagination . . .
>
I wonder if: imagination=water?

"Our knowledge is a little island in a great ocean of imagination."

You heard it here first.

=====================================================================

Too many have dispensed with generosity in order to practice charity.
    -- Albert Camus






From hoon@apk.net Fri Dec 01 07:21:47 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Pysbernet Small Groups
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:21:47 -0500


>Note that I am not thinking so much of the current Psybernet
>Conference participants as members of these groups, though I do
>not exclude it.   I have some Psyberspace friends here and there
>is the difficulty of mixing friendship with professional work.
>One possibility is a training group for doing this work.  The
>other groups I am thinking of are the ones I have been thinking
>of for ages -- a dream group and a H&N group -- (here and Now)
>
>Am I squeezing the psyber foot into a shoe it wont fit -- that is
>my fear -- just got to give it a go eh!

I'm tempted to ask you Walter: "What do your dreams say?"

Reminded of your (August?) dream. My sense (here) is you're working alone
(there) to implement while people in this group (for example and among the
pool of possible participants for the PSGs,) await first developments.

I notice something similar in N_D which is much talk about 'starting'.
Where talk predominates, as in this medium, what is the sign of action?

In N_D I came in as Bion and Tavistock (now there's a hoary Brit concept,)
were stated as being founding frameworks, its been fascinating to see the
'leaderless' group evolve.

Obviously one of the biggest challenges facing 'we' in this medium is how
to get work done when we're connected largely by threads of text. Since any
prescriptive procedural could potentially get tossed about in an endless
train of responses, why is it hard to write to a group and say:

We're going to this:

Step one.
Step Two.
Step Three.
(etc.)

I'm involved in an example right now. I subscribed to a group called
Virtual College. It's not a distance learning situation. The group's motive
is to work together to learn how to bring wider exposure of the internet to
people,
especially to those peoples who aren't likely to have easy access.

Okay, project one is to write a press release to your local newspapers.
Here's the process:

(1)Moderator posts procedural, step A.
(2)Lots of noisy responses and unsubscribes.
(3)Moderator posts procedural, step B.
(4)repeat #2.
(5+) etc.

Here, there is no adjustment of the procedural according to the responses
either. We're at step B and it's taken six weeks! I wonder to myself why
the moderator didn't post the whole procedural, set a deadline, and ask for
the participants to report their results soon after the deadline.

It's all amazing to observe. One personal note is this: in my job I have a
small staff to manage. It's no big deal and not a very messy affair. In
contrast, every time I log on in cyberspace I'm faced with all sorts of
evolving mysteries and great messiness and chewing over prospects, and the
like.

Draw your own conclusions...I'm a bit of a 'richness of human nature'
junkie, and I'm not in a hurry. But, I do like to hurry.

Best to all, Stephen



======================================================================
http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
======================================================================

Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we
didn't.
    -- Erica Jong






From vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu Sat Dec 02 08:51:14 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Pysbernet Small Groups
From: Victoria  Vinogradova <vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu>
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:51:14 -0500 (EST)



Unsubscribe




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Dec 02 21:14:09 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: Re: filling in blanks, again
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 1995 08:14:09 GMT

Stephen,
> Still, the text medium does pare away both cues that imbue (? saturate) and
> cues that fool.

We learn a lot from someone's clothes and looks -- and they don't
really lie either even if they cover other aspects -- we are
layered creatures.  This medium reveals a layer that otherwise
would not be seen.

> Sounds like an interesting experiment. I have a second email account and I
> could enter a listserv from there and from here and create my own flame war
> between my selves...

One thing I liked about the ALTERWORLD experiment on the BBS was
that we had the agreement that we could do it there -- there was
not that level of deceit.  It came about after a decision that
the Psybernet Conference would be a "real name only" area on the
BBS.  Since the gating to the Internet this is not an option that
can easily be enforced, and there is a notion that if it is
possible then it might happen.  I hope this will remain a place
where our online id corresponds with our offline one.  Why is
that?  

> >Argg . . .  what is real?  I think you have some sense of me and
> >I don't think it is naive to trust that.  (& vice versa)
> 
> Yes. What is at risk, really? example: I could disappear, an easier option
> here than in my RL social circumstance.

You could . . . but I have a faith that there would be some
departure, some reason or circumstance . . . it would distress me
to not hear anything from several of the main participants here
-- I would project illness or death . . . I would have no way to
check -- or perhaps I would WWW pages and such like . . . 

> When I came to Psyber-L I found out quickly, especially with the prelim of
> having visited the Psybernet web page, that there was something very
> sympatico going on. It gibed with my desire too: to turn on the computer,
> type a bit, and send out a thought important to me, damn, to my soul and my
> spirit, and see what happened.

I like hearing all this Stephen,  I get some feed back from the
pages -- but less than I anticipated.  That is one of the reasons
for my reluctance with the Small Groups, however your prodding is
moving me!

> This is a good place to send out such thoughts. Thus I serve my Self. I
> can't emphasize enough that it's being easier here is the biggest turn on
> for me; in fact, it helps me turn *me* on literally.

That is important eh!  It flies so much in the face of the
conception that this is a withdrawal from life!

> Yet,
> there is a property of the cast of characters, which, when the cast is
> taken as a whole, allows for one to gravitate toward a specific 'becoming'
> situated, or centered by one of those alters.

I would have to create a character and 'make up' the traits and
then let him/her have a life -- then I would know more about who
I am.


Walter





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sat Dec 02 21:14:09 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: filling in blanks, again
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 1995 08:14:09 GMT

Stephen,
> Still, the text medium does pare away both cues that imbue (? saturate) and
> cues that fool.

We learn a lot from someone's clothes and looks -- and they don't
really lie either even if they cover other aspects -- we are
layered creatures.  This medium reveals a layer that otherwise
would not be seen.

> Sounds like an interesting experiment. I have a second email account and I
> could enter a listserv from there and from here and create my own flame war
> between my selves...

One thing I liked about the ALTERWORLD experiment on the BBS was
that we had the agreement that we could do it there -- there was
not that level of deceit.  It came about after a decision that
the Psybernet Conference would be a "real name only" area on the
BBS.  Since the gating to the Internet this is not an option that
can easily be enforced, and there is a notion that if it is
possible then it might happen.  I hope this will remain a place
where our online id corresponds with our offline one.  Why is
that?  

> >Argg . . .  what is real?  I think you have some sense of me and
> >I don't think it is naive to trust that.  (& vice versa)
> 
> Yes. What is at risk, really? example: I could disappear, an easier option
> here than in my RL social circumstance.

You could . . . but I have a faith that there would be some
departure, some reason or circumstance . . . it would distress me
to not hear anything from several of the main participants here
-- I would project illness or death . . . I would have no way to
check -- or perhaps I would WWW pages and such like . . . 

> When I came to Psyber-L I found out quickly, especially with the prelim of
> having visited the Psybernet web page, that there was something very
> sympatico going on. It gibed with my desire too: to turn on the computer,
> type a bit, and send out a thought important to me, damn, to my soul and my
> spirit, and see what happened.

I like hearing all this Stephen,  I get some feed back from the
pages -- but less than I anticipated.  That is one of the reasons
for my reluctance with the Small Groups, however your prodding is
moving me!

> This is a good place to send out such thoughts. Thus I serve my Self. I
> can't emphasize enough that it's being easier here is the biggest turn on
> for me; in fact, it helps me turn *me* on literally.

That is important eh!  It flies so much in the face of the
conception that this is a withdrawal from life!

> Yet,
> there is a property of the cast of characters, which, when the cast is
> taken as a whole, allows for one to gravitate toward a specific 'becoming'
> situated, or centered by one of those alters.

I would have to create a character and 'make up' the traits and
then let him/her have a life -- then I would know more about who
I am.


Walter





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From maplestone@sentex.net Sun Dec 03 01:46:59 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Pysbernet Small Groups
From: Suzanne Nadon <maplestone@sentex.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:46:59 -0500


Unsubscribe





From mckenzie@community.net Sun Dec 03 04:58:19 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Pysbernet Small Groups
From: McKenzie <mckenzie@community.net>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:58:19 -0800


To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject:   Pysbernet Small Groups


>
>Unsubscribe



--McKenzie, McKenzie@Community.Net    "Once upon a time loving set me free"
    http://community.net/~mckenzie/           --Rod McKuen--
                                                






From dra1515@azstarnet.com Sun Dec 03 07:06:44 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Unsubscribe
From: "Dale R. Adams" <dra1515@azstarnet.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:06:44 -0700









From vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu Sun Dec 03 10:03:24 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Unsubscribe
From: Victoria  Vinogradova <vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu>
Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:03:24 -0500 (EST)



unsubscribe




From hipbone@earthlink.net Mon Dec 04 07:10:16 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psyber-L / Glass Bead Games / Psyche
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 10:10:16 -0800


Dear Walter and crew:

I first came across Psyber-L while reading some materials of Walter's about
the paper he submitted for the "Theories and Metaphors of Cyberspace" panel
of EMCSR'96, the 13th European Meeting on Cybernetics and Systems Research,
for what I myself had also submitted a paper.

I've been lurking here for a while now on Psyber-L, reading the posts and
comparing their "taste" to that of the Hermetica list, another list that
attempts to create a *temenos*.

Some observations.

Psyber-L posts tend to be way more abstract than posts on Hermetica.  This
is only natural, since the overt topic of Psyber-L is exploring
relationship between soul and the sprawl of possibilities that are the net
and the web, while the overt topic of Hermetica is exploring relationship
between soul and the unfolding of an esoteric spirituality for our (now
global) situation.

The effect is that Psyber-L posts appear to me to correspond in some arcane
way to a discussion of "form", while Hermetica posts correspond to a
discussion of "content"...

I suspect that the two projects have much in common, and that to the same
degree that Christianity (say) has metamorphosed in various ways in
response to the possibilities called "manuscript", "copy", "illuminated
manuscript", "book", "book translated into the common tongue", etc, so the
emergent spiritualities of our times may be influenced by the nature (and
availability) of the evolving net.

More profoundly, the net is itself analogous to at least some existing
spiritual "images" -- eg the "Net of Indra", from Hua-yen Buddhism, and the
"Noosphere" of Teilhard de Chardin: it may also be analogous in profound
and fruitful ways with the structure of the brain...

This leads me to suppose that the net may be in some way *instrumental* in
some at least of the emergent spiritualities (analogy, to my mind, being
the most profound of connectives, far more powerful in its way than causal
logic).

My own major interest is in yet another analogue to the net: Herman Hesse's
Glass Bead Game.  As many of you no doubt know, Hesse won the Nobel prize
for a novel he wrote, sometimes called *The Glass Bead Game* and sometimes
*Magister Ludi*, in which a meditative Game is the vehicle for a new kind
of music that juxtaposes ideas (texts, images, sounds) in harmony and
counterpoint.

Part of what interests me about the Game is the fact that with the advent
of the web, it is at last possible to "store" texts, images and sounds in
the same (digital) space -- and thus the prospect of designing playable
variants on Hesse's Game has opened up, both for myself and others.  My own
paper for EMCSR'96 details a "playing" of one of my Hesse-inspired Games,
the WaterBird Game, on yet another small temenos-list, this one a private
list with ten members called "the Gold Thread" (an overtly alchemical
name).

*

If I had a wish for Psyber-L, it would be that psyche (a butterfly, no?)
should spread her wings, that her preferred discourse is poetry: not
meaning by that a discourse of short lines or rhymes, but a discourse of
deep metaphor and rich, resonant concreteness, a verbal incarnation of
spirit and soul in the suchness of things, a praising, a continuing record
of epiphanies...

*

Tama, your posts are jazz.  Stephen, I admire the clarity and warmth of
your insights, and trust we shall be in correspondence hereafter.  Walter,
my thanks for the platform you have provided: I begin to feel I must some
day visit Australia and New Zealand (I am originally British, currently
live in Los Angeles).

Cordially,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From mckenzie@community.net Mon Dec 04 08:25:44 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psyber-L / Glass Bead Games / Psyche
From: McKenzie <mckenzie@community.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:25:44 -0800


unsubcribe



--McKenzie, McKenzie@Community.Net    Friendship and love freely given
    http://community.net/~mckenzie/      are gifts I treasure
                                                






From hoon@apk.net Mon Dec 04 16:41:53 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psyber-L / Glass Bead Games / Psyche
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:41:53 -0500


>Dear Walter and crew:
>The effect is that Psyber-L posts appear to me to correspond in some arcane
>way to a discussion of "form", while Hermetica posts correspond to a
>discussion of "content"...
-snip-
>
>This leads me to suppose that the net may be in some way *instrumental* in
>some at least of the emergent spiritualities (analogy, to my mind, being
>the most profound of connectives, far more powerful in its way than causal
>logic).
-snip-
>Part of what interests me about the Game is the fact that with the advent
>of the web, it is at last possible to "store" texts, images and sounds in
>the same (digital) space -- and thus the prospect of designing playable
>variants on Hesse's Game has opened up, both for myself and others.  My own
>paper for EMCSR'96 details a "playing" of one of my Hesse-inspired Games,
>the WaterBird Game, on yet another small temenos-list, this one a private
>list with ten members called "the Gold Thread" (an overtly alchemical
>name).
>
(I like this: "small-temenos list".)
>*
What is this explosion of Self about in cyberspace?

About? What is it circling?

>
>If I had a wish for Psyber-L, it would be that psyche (a butterfly, no?)
>should spread her wings, that her preferred discourse is poetry: not
>meaning by that a discourse of short lines or rhymes, but a discourse of
>deep metaphor and rich, resonant concreteness, a verbal incarnation of
>spirit and soul in the suchness of things, a praising, a continuing record
>of epiphanies...
>
>*
>
>Tama, your posts are jazz.  Stephen, I admire the clarity and warmth of
>your insights, and trust we shall be in correspondence hereafter.  Walter,
>my thanks for the platform you have provided: I begin to feel I must some
>day visit Australia and New Zealand (I am originally British, currently
>live in Los Angeles).
>
>Cordially,
>
>--
>Charles
>Charles Cameron
>*

There is this contrast I can't shake between sitting down and just letting
the words fly and feeling amused at my own unconventional life-point (right
now!always) and then looking upon late capitalism and late religion even,
and also recoiling at any orthodoxy that isn't anchored deep into the muck
of moist soul that lays warmly on cool spirit.

Lucky to have access to a computer. Hardly the point. Access to your
sincerity, Walter's, everybody here.

A large blessing. Thank you Charles.

Stephen


Stephen======================http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html


A poet tries to say love's mystery, why the reed flute grieves.
Listen and obey the hushed language. Go naked.
>>Rumi, r.a., tr:Coleman Barks






From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Mon Dec 04 16:47:33 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psyche(& some of Tama's dreams)
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:47:33 +1100


Greetings People,

Click-CONECTION-"that psyche (a butterfly, no?)"
should spread her wings, that her preferred discourse is poetry: not
meaning by that a discourse of short lines or rhymes, but a discourse of
deep metaphor and rich, resonant concreteness, a verbal incarnation of
spirit and soul in the suchness of things, a praising, a continuing record
of epiphanies...

Yes-you have started to probe and explore the depth of possibility that
awaits us!!

CONECTION-The image of the Butterfly-I had a dream-with a Butterfly-

-I came across a group of people leaping and cavorting around grass & trees
trying to capture a bird,  so I joined in,  I caught the bird,  it's warm
body & heart throbbed in my hands,  I was shocked, it burst free from my
grasp.I chased it,  it could not escape me,  I clasped it in the embrace of
my hands,  marveleing at it.I was approached by an old balding man,  who
clearly wanted possesion of the bird. (the man was not good-he was very
similiar to the a baddie off a hollywood movie) He was in a convertible
racing car-clearly he had money,  he wanted the bird,  he was going to give
me something-he was going to take my address and reward me later-so I gave
him the bird,  he put it in a leather bag,  then I realised he was not
going to give me anything so I quickly tryed to get some money out of
him-$20-$10,  instead of money he gave me an E-mail disk-(very similar to
mine) then he drove off.Later I encountered him in a resteraunt,  I was
angry,  I through the E-mail disk at him and it shattered onnto him.Then
the scene shifted to him being asleep or unconcous on a bed,  I crept
around to another room and found the bird-but it was not a bird anymore-it
was a BUTTERFLY,  later I took it out and looked it up in a book it was a
rare Butterfly...-Thats it

I have been having heaps of dreams lately-very vivid adventerous ones.I had
a Dream where me & some other people went to another place-there were Apes
who came after us when apples rolled in our direction-we eventually came to
a double sided compartment several got in each side-the group on the other
side discovered how to activate it but we wrongly did it and sand started
to pour in-eventually we were rescued by the others and came to a different
place.

I also had a slightly erotic one too where I felt a womans breasts and they
were gave were the most tactile and sensous-wow.

Walter I would really appreciate that dreams group-So Do it man!!

Hey Charles I really liked your post had some great stuff in it.I must read
Hesse's glass bead game,  I have read about it before-your analogy with the
game and the net was also interesting-"Part of what interests me about the
Game is the fact that with the advent
of the web, it is at last possible to "store" texts, images and sounds in
the same (digital) space -- and thus the prospect of designing playable
variants on Hesse's Game has opened up, both for myself and others."-Can
you please elaborate a bit?

Oh & Steve your idea of the evil twin-well I have experimented a bit on
Muds and found some bizarre character traits come out-sometimes I could be
so witty-or so sarcastic-or spout out sexual enuendo(that did not impress
the women at all-shows how boring that kinda person can be-or
offensive)-well you can really pretend to be what ever you want.

Anyway I better be going.
Oh & by the way-I breifly chatted with miles last night and he has not
checked his E-mail in ages-he is moving to Wellington-he got Honours in his
degree-he has a job up in Wellington as well.Oh well no doubt we will here
from him when he gets connected up in Wellington.

Oh well Sinanara everybody!!


                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






From hoon@apk.net Mon Dec 04 16:55:53 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama's dream
From: Stephen Calhoun <hoon@apk.net>
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:55:53 -0500


What a great dream. Wonderfully rendered. Any idea Tama what bad guys,
email discs, and butterfies have to do with what's going on in your life
now?

Stephen


"I'm going to speak my mind because I have
nothing to loose."

>>  S. I. Hayakawa






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Dec 04 20:56:08 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 07:56:08 GMT


On Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:03:24 -0500 (EST), Victoria  Vinogradova
<vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu> wrote:

> 
> 
> unsubscribe



Here is the information anyone who wants to unsub needs, thanks
for your interest.

Walter 


== To Unsubscribe from the List  ==

Send a message to:
listserv@link.southern.co.nz  


Write nothing in the text except:


unsub PSYBER-L







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html




From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Mon Dec 04 20:56:08 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: Re: Unsubscribe
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 07:56:08 GMT


On Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:03:24 -0500 (EST), Victoria  Vinogradova
<vqv4981@is2.nyu.edu> wrote:

> 
> 
> unsubscribe



Here is the information anyone who wants to unsub needs, thanks
for your interest.

Walter 


== To Unsubscribe from the List  ==

Send a message to:
listserv@link.southern.co.nz  


Write nothing in the text except:


unsub PSYBER-L







_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From mckenzie@community.net Tue Dec 05 02:49:52 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psyche(& some of Tama's dreams)
From: McKenzie <mckenzie@community.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:49:52 -0800


unsubscribe



--McKenzie, McKenzie@Community.Net    Friendship and love freely given
    http://community.net/~mckenzie/      are gifts I treasure
                                                






From mckenzie@community.net Tue Dec 05 02:50:09 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: unsubcribe
From: McKenzie <mckenzie@community.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 05:50:09 -0800


UNSUBSCRIBE










>>Dear Walter and crew:
>>The effect is that Psyber-L posts appear to me to correspond in some arcane
>>way to a discussion of "form", while Hermetica posts correspond to a
>>discussion of "content"...
>-snip-
>>
>>This leads me to suppose that the net may be in some way *instrumental* in
>>some at least of the emergent spiritualities (analogy, to my mind, being
>>the most profound of connectives, far more powerful in its way than causal
>>logic).
>-snip-
>>Part of what interests me about the Game is the fact that with the advent
>>of the web, it is at last possible to "store" texts, images and sounds in
>>the same (digital) space -- and thus the prospect of designing playable
>>variants on Hesse's Game has opened up, both for myself and others.  My own
>>paper for EMCSR'96 details a "playing" of one of my Hesse-inspired Games,
>>the WaterBird Game, on yet another small temenos-list, this one a private
>>list with ten members called "the Gold Thread" (an overtly alchemical
>>name).
>>
>(I like this: "small-temenos list".)
>>*
>What is this explosion of Self about in cyberspace?
>
>About? What is it circling?
>
>>
>>If I had a wish for Psyber-L, it would be that psyche (a butterfly, no?)
>>should spread her wings, that her preferred discourse is poetry: not
>>meaning by that a discourse of short lines or rhymes, but a discourse of
>>deep metaphor and rich, resonant concreteness, a verbal incarnation of
>>spirit and soul in the suchness of things, a praising, a continuing record
>>of epiphanies...
>>
>>*
>>
>>Tama, your posts are jazz.  Stephen, I admire the clarity and warmth of
>>your insights, and trust we shall be in correspondence hereafter.  Walter,
>>my thanks for the platform you have provided: I begin to feel I must some
>>day visit Australia and New Zealand (I am originally British, currently
>>live in Los Angeles).
>>
>>Cordially,
>>
>>--
>>Charles
>>Charles Cameron
>>*
>
>There is this contrast I can't shake between sitting down and just letting
>the words fly and feeling amused at my own unconventional life-point (right
>now!always) and then looking upon late capitalism and late religion even,
>and also recoiling at any orthodoxy that isn't anchored deep into the muck
>of moist soul that lays warmly on cool spirit.
>
>Lucky to have access to a computer. Hardly the point. Access to your
>sincerity, Walter's, everybody here.
>
>A large blessing. Thank you Charles.
>
>Stephen
>
>
>Stephen======================http://junior.apk.net/~hoon/hoon.html
>
>
>A poet tries to say love's mystery, why the reed flute grieves.
>Listen and obey the hushed language. Go naked.
>>>Rumi, r.a., tr:Coleman Barks



--McKenzie, McKenzie@Community.Net    Friendship and love freely given
    http://community.net/~mckenzie/      are gifts I treasure
                                                






From maplestone@sentex.net Tue Dec 05 02:50:26 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Unsubscribe
From: Suzanne Nadon <maplestone@sentex.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:50:26 -0500


unsub PSYBER-L





From hipbone@earthlink.net Tue Dec 05 14:08:02 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psyber-L / Glass Bead Games / Psyche
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 17:08:02 -0800


Stephen asks:

> What is this explosion of Self about in cyberspace?
> About?  What is it circling?

There's a Vishnu story about a contest in which two of his disciples are
ordered to race each other around the three worlds.  One takes off like a
rocket, the other waits a bit, then bows and circumambulates Vishnu: it's a
winning move.  So isn't all circling (particularly where the Self is
involved) circling about the Pole? the Qutub? the Kaaba? the Self itself?

Yesterday I officiated at a wedding.  The groom is a member of a rock band,
and he and all but one long-haired member of his party were shaven headed,
all dressed to the nines in a post-modern variant on "black tie": high
necked white shirts with no collars, glittering black studs in place of a
tie.  Very cool, very forceful looking, especially in contrast to the very
pretty bride and her party...

I asked the groomsmen whether they all belonged to some strange new zen
monastery, and they laughed and agreed.  One of them said, "But I carry my
temple around with me."  Later, I mentioned the zen monastery idea to the
groom's father, and he said, "Must be a 'zen and the art of motorcycle
maintenance' monastery!"

*

"I carry my temple around with me."

*

> A poet tries to say love's mystery, why the reed flute grieves.
> Listen and obey the hushed language. Go naked.

> Rumi, r.a., tr: Coleman Barks

I'm not sure how much of this is Rumi, but it started from a verse of his
in Arberry or Nicholson, and I worked it a bit:


        I am a bird of the garden beyond time,
        locked for a moment into this cage of ribs.



Bright wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Tue Dec 05 23:35:15 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: Announcement:  Here & Now  
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 10:35:15 GMT

              == Psybernet Small Groups ==

                   ==  Invitation ==

                == Here and Now Group ==

This is an email group conducted entirely on the Internet.
It is in the form of a mailing list.  The Group is facilitated
and for a fee.

Members conduct discussion, via email, about their
thoughts, feelings, perceptions and experience.  The
experience could be of immediate life, at work, in
relationships or of the inner life of the psyche.
Responses to others in the group, and the group's life are
encouraged as expressions of personal experience.

The title in the "Here and Now" refers to a term used in
psychotherapy to denote a state of presence and awareness
which avoids excessive reporting of opinions or judgment.
Groups like this can develop a high level of trust and can
have a powerful place in your life, for some they are an
important vehicle of self discovery.

The group is facilitated by Walter Logeman.  The style of
leadership may include an introduction and warm-up,
summarising, encouragement and comment on the group
process.  At times it may be a light touch as the group
does its work with minimal intervention.

This group will commence on 5 February 1996.  It will run
for 10 weeks, until 15 April.  The fee is $US 30.  There may
be more than one group -- Minimum number in a group is 12,
maximum 30.  The group is confidential (within the bounds
of usual email security).

To learn about Psybernet, Walter Logeman, and Psybernet
Small Groups please visit:

http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html

For more details about the group and how to subscribe
please send email to:

here@link.southern.co.nz

no subject or text is required, details will be forwarded
in about an hour.


Walter Logeman   2 December, 1995


== end ==


_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Wed Dec 06 00:16:56 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz, walterl@chch.planet.org.nz 
Subject: 
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 11:16:56 GMT

Hi all,

I just posted an announcement for a Psybernet Small Group --
Thanks for the encouragement from several of you -- I feel a bit
embarrassed about needing it when I seem to need to be as bold as
brass to do this -- I have not sent this announcement out far and
wide as yet but am planning to do so.  

It was a mammoth effort working on all this the last few days --
the list is set up and the welcome messages all prepared etc.
I'm afraid I have gone back to the midnight to dawn shift to do
it -- interferes with my exercise!

It is not the Dream group Tama, but lets keep doing that here --
I'll get back to your dream post.  

I have a dilemma about boundaries as I promote groups like this
-- I am used to there being some gap between my professional self
and my personal self  (in RL) - and me as a learner -- having
Psybernet Conference where I am a _participant_ (and so far only
nominally the facilitator) and visible in a different way to my
presence in the Psybernet Small Groups is a new one on me -- and
I guess it is a Psyberspace phenomena.  My whole psyche is there
for anyone who can plunder archives.  I am far more visible to
potential clients here than in RL.

Strange.  It will of course be impossible to discuss the
Psybernet Small Groups here as they are confidential, however I
do seek the supervision of a colleague.  Ooops must mention that
in the notes for the group.

Any way I fee really optimistic that a viable group might form
and that I will be able to realise some of the vision after three
years of learning and experimenting.  

See you soon,

Walter





_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From hipbone@earthlink.net Wed Dec 06 18:46:24 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Psyche (& some of Tama's dreams)
From: Charles Cameron <hipbone@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:46:24 -0800


Tama writes:

> I must read Hesse's glass bead game, I have read about it before.

It is a wonderful book, and deservedly won Hesse the Nobel Prize.

*

> your analogy with the game and the net was also interesting

>> Part of what interests me about the Game is the fact that with the
>> advent of the web, it is at last possible to "store" texts, images
>> and sounds in the same (digital) space -- and thus the prospect of
>> designing playable variants on Hesse's Game has opened up,
>> both for myself and others."

> Can you please elaborate a bit?

Hesse's Game -- and any Game deriving its inspiration from Hesse's Game --
basically involves holding two "ideas" in your mind at the same time.
Perhaps the ideas in question are the way the veins fan our in your hands,
and the way veins fan out in a leaf -- or the convoluted shape of the human
brain, and the very similar shape of a walnut -- or a quote from a TS Eliot
poem:

        The dove descending breaks the air
        With flame of incandescent terror

and a piece of music:  Ralph Vaughan Williams' "The lark ascending".

The point is that when you hold these two ideas in your mind at the same
time, there's a kind of stereo effect: you can sense the beauty, the humor,
the eccentricity or "fit" or strangeness or charm of the way the two ideas
parallel and differ from each other: the veins in hand and leaf, the dove
descending and the lark ascending, or whatever.  The ideas themselves begin
to make a kind of music.  So that's the essence of the Game.

Now for the technology.

We can now "translate" an image of a leaf -- or the Eliot quote -- or the
Vaughan Williams melody -- into a digital form, in which it can be placed
on a Game page on the the web.  So that a Game which may include pieces of
music, texts and images among its "moves" can be stored on the web, and
people who want to "read" the Game later can access music, image and text
with a click or two of a web browser.  In some ways, in other words, this
Game is ideally suited to the web: and while Herman Hesse was able to
conceive of it and describe it in his novel fifty odd years ago, we can now
actually design and play a Game that very much resembles his fictional one.

And that's what I've been working at: designing a series of Game boards,
and a set of rules, and some sample Games, and trying to put together a
package that will make my Games available in a whole gamut of contexts from
"party game" to "educational aid" and from "killer contest" to "cooperative
work of art".

*

Lately we've been playing the Games, too, on a couple of Internet mailing
lists, and something very interesting has been happening: many of the
players begin to notice a whole lot more synchronicity in their lives.

I *think* this is because the kinds of metaphors and analogies between
ideas that make for interesting moves in the Game are very similar to the
kinds of metaphors and analogies between internal and external experiences
that Jung called synchronicity.  So when you start focusing in on the
process of analogical thinking, you very likely pick up on more of the
analogies and synchronicities in the world around you (and within you).

But whether that's the explanation, or whether there's something more
involved -- activation of the unconscious through the focus on very
powerful images, perhaps -- the effect is that a Game played via email can
have quite a powerful impact on one's everyday life.  It's like having a
very deliberate structure into which to pour one's dreams.

And since a completed Game is itself a complex web of ideas -- images,
texts, and musics -- not unlike the World Wide Web itself, I submitted one
of my Games to that conference on "Theories and Metaphors of Cyberspace".

And that in turn is how I happened to come across some of Walter's writings
along very similar lines, and heard about this list...

Best wishes,

--
Charles
Charles Cameron
*
hipbone@earthlink.net        "a virtual music of ideas"






From walterl@chch.planet.co.nz Sun Dec 24 02:22:27 1995
To: PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz
Subject: Christmas, plans, holidays, greetings . . . 
From: walterl@chch.planet.co.nz (Walter Logeman)
Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 13:22:27 GMT

Hi All,

Strange.  I have watched the list go very quiet.

The list is here -- and I suspect many participants are -- the
silence is one of reflection, for me at least.

It is Christmas . . . seasons greeting to all.

I have spent the last few weeks working hard in my private
psychotherapy practice -- and have in addition been planing two
ventures that have occupied me very fully.

The main one is leasing an another room in the building where I
now have my rooms.  I will have my own Group Training room.  The
builders will be knocking out partitions over the holidays and I
have been looking at chairs, colours and planning brochures and a
mailout.

One could call it a retreat into non-virtual reality.

Another project is the Here & Now Group -- a more serious forage
into professionally run psychological venture in cyberspace.
Thus calling my Group Room venture a retreat into reality is not
totally accurate, I am more than ever working both ends of the
reality spectrum.  

The unifying theme is Groups,  or perhaps it is ventures -- both
are enterprises with big investment of my energy and I'd like to
see them both flourish in '96.

In the meantime I am planning to have a good holiday break, and
get fit climbing and tramping.  

All for now -- it would be good to hear from others, as we move
into the new year.  

Best wishes,


Walter. 








_____________________________________________________
Walter Logeman             walterl@chch.planet.org.nz
http://www2.chch.planet.org.nz/~walter/psybernet.html


From tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Sun Dec 24 17:42:42 1995
To: Multiple recipients of list PSYBER-L <PSYBER-L@link.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Tama talks about his working holiday...
From: "Tama.Neill" <tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 15:42:42 +1100


HELLO EVERYONE,

I have just returned from a kinda working holiday experience,  & let me
tell you people now,  it was a bit of a CRAZY time!!

 OI Walter did you get my messages on your answer phone?
I was gonna ring when I came through but I forgot-things were too arrgggh
complex...

Well the idea was that I was going to pick some Cherrys & earn a bit of
cash but some nasty rain came along & ruined lots of the crop so I
basically only made enough to fund my trip exspenses,  Nevermind I had a
helluuva time.I stayed around this town called Bleinham pretending to pick
cherry's-what I mean is I never really got into it.

A close friend who I have known sinse 5 came & I went to Nelson to stay
with him,  When I was there I visited my Godfather,  who had returned from
sailing his Catermeran Yacht "Sudden Laughter" to protest at Mueroa &
back.The local radio station wsa supposed to raise money but they did not,
so when poor Nigle Joy(used to be Payne) got back he was $30,000 in debt +
also $15,000 he had all ready put in.Well French Polynesia is one of the
most exspensive places in the world-$16 for a Mcdonalds size hamburger!!
But Luckily the Japanese sister city of Nelson raised $16, 000 so now the
pressure has been releaved a bit and they can find the rest of the money.

 That night I tried smoking Marijuana,  of course the first time you dont
really get much effect.But me & my friend went to a concert with a few kiwi
bands the Mutton Birds & Dave Dobbyn & we got stoned & drunk-wa that was a
bit much really luckily we got sobered up eventually,  but it was pretty
funny for awile walking around a motor camp,  feeling slightly paranoyed
and trying to act slightly normal,  we pigged out on ice cream,
Crazy-don't worry the worst is yet to come.

Well I hung around in Nelson helping my freinds parents do various little
jobs & stuff.I also went & met my Fathers mother my grand mother.You see my
father has never recognised my paternity & he has a wife that is very
materealistic and is very paranoyed and keeps a tight reign on my
father.But Lola my nana was really neat-83-I also meet an uncle,  & I right
to my father if he still does not want any thing to do with me I'll get
social welfare to put me in his will.

The other major thing that happened was-arrggh-mixed feelings on this one-I
lost my virginity!!  An ex girl friend of my mates (we also had previously
written to one another) kinda got together for a fling.Well it was not as
good as I thought it would be,  oh well,  I relealise now that you really
have to really like or love that person before you do that kinda thing or
it's just animal desire.But the one major worry & bloody stupid mistake
that I made was that after the condom fell off the first time,  she
convinced me she was on the pill & that she was clean of std's-arrgghh,  so
when Christmas finishes & things get back to normal again I guess I be
getting a std check up.So Dum never again without protection,  I dont want
to die of A.I.D.S!!
Later on I found out that she was rather messed up-I'm not sure whether she
was a drama queen-but she saifd she was raped by her brothers-that really
scared me,  especially when she started crying.Oh well fingers crossed I'll
be all right and will have learnt my lesson without any disasterous
consequences.

Any way It sure is good to be back home in Dunedin & Christmas-well it is
rather a non event at home just me and my mother & we have decided to not
bother withg presnts allthough I giot a couple from other friends- A Star
Wars t-shirt,  a pen,  & a bonsai tree-Ha couls start to make a christmas
carol out of that one-with the tree & all.I did make Claire a card though I
used some of my black & white photography.Oh it was rather interesting
talking to my nana,  about her sons traits,  one then was slightly dislexic
which I was,  One is into photograhy & actually is a film editor & another
likes to fly in gliders-I have had an urge to fly & another gets sweaty
hands,  the looks are not that similiar although I have similiar eyebrows.

Oh well hope every ones well good & happy,  I am,  I hope,  well I'm off to
the movies tonight with Claire and I have more letters to write I must go!!

Oh Charles Cameron thanx for that explanation post it was fantastic-uou
have got me very interested iut soundz exciting,  I'll read the Glass Bead
Game as soon as I can get hold of a copy & when I have International access
I'll check out on of yours games-can you give me a net address where I
would find one?

Hey Walter that Here & Now groups sounds cool.Do you think that I would
suit it or not? Ha do you have a student rate? Oh well disapate my net
form.

Oh One funny thing my mother had a go on the net the other day & visited a
chat place ya know where you asume a name & picture and chat,  she found a
bit much she compared it to talkimg with strangers-like on the phone.

Oh an another interesting thing Walter you have heards of Stephen Hannen
the guy who was in the Cave Creek accident,  hes a friend of mine from
primary school well I went & visited him & hes a bit better.Well apparently
a older friend was encouraging him to use computers & the net and ACC are
going to equip him with a computer and flat.Hes just gone home for a
holiday but maybe you could see him sometime-he is in Burwood hospital,  or
maybe when he gets hold of a computer I can getr him online here or in one
of your groups.

hear from you guys sometime.

Sianara,  Ciao,  Good bye!!



                             __________________
                             *TAMA JAMEY NEILL*

                               *P:(03)4554627*
                             *E-MAIL address:-*
                      *tama.neill@stonebow.otago.ac.nz*
                      _________________________________

                "The aim of human life is to know thy selves."_- Socrates...

"I can't change the world but I can change the world in me."- _U2...

You will find that many of the truths we hold on to depend greatly on our own
>point of view.  (Ben - The Empire Strikes Back)

"To be is to do" -Socrates

                        "To do is to be" -Sartre

                                         "Do be do be do" -Sinatra






